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You can do that with (lambda () (block my-name … (return-from my-name) …)) 2015-04-01T00:18:40Z madalu joined #lisp 2015-04-01T00:18:54Z shovel_boss_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T00:19:05Z electrojustin: "why do you need to name a lambda" honestly I didn't...I don't even remember what my reasoning was for trying to do that 2015-04-01T00:19:50Z pillton: electrojustin: (macroexpand '(push "hello" a)) 2015-04-01T00:20:21Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-01T00:20:21Z pillton: clhs macroexpand 2015-04-01T00:20:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mexp_.htm 2015-04-01T00:20:25Z pillton: clhs macroexpand-1 2015-04-01T00:20:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mexp_.htm 2015-04-01T00:21:21Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-01T00:22:17Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2015-04-01T00:24:03Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-04-01T00:24:59Z zyaku joined #lisp 2015-04-01T00:25:43Z gklimowicz joined #lisp 2015-04-01T00:26:47Z gklimowi_ joined #lisp 2015-04-01T00:26:51Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T00:29:22Z julianb quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-01T00:29:49Z gklimowicz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-01T00:30:46Z clop joined #lisp 2015-04-01T00:32:27Z gklimowi_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T00:33:53Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-01T00:34:45Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-04-01T00:38:43Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-04-01T00:39:42Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-04-01T00:41:15Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T00:44:08Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-01T00:48:03Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-04-01T00:49:22Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T00:50:23Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-01T00:51:12Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T00:52:59Z bgs100 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-01T00:56:15Z pjb: electrojustin: setf is a macro. Eventually the compiler will have macroexpanded it, so what the compiler really compile is never a setf. 2015-04-01T00:57:22Z pjb: setq is a special form; setf of variables will expand to setq of those variables, and the compiler may then compile setq by binding those variables. 2015-04-01T00:58:03Z pjb: Theorically. In practice, an implementation can define setq as a macro that expands to setf and setf be a special operator (as long as it provides a macro that still expands setf to setq for variables, for code walkers). 2015-04-01T00:58:29Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-01T00:58:45Z pjb: electrojustin: by the same token, an implementation can compile push directly, without using the macro that expands push into a setf. 2015-04-01T00:58:54Z pjb: electrojustin: so your question has little relevance. 2015-04-01T00:59:15Z electrojustin: my implementation apparently doesn't compile push directly 2015-04-01T00:59:18Z electrojustin: but it's irrelevant 2015-04-01T00:59:23Z electrojustin: i had the arguments mixed up 2015-04-01T00:59:40Z pjb: electrojustin: I'd bet most implementations don't compile push directly. Macros are very nice to simplify the compilers and interpreters :-) 2015-04-01T01:00:39Z leo2007 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T01:00:47Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T01:01:25Z linux_dream quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T01:01:25Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T01:01:27Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-04-01T01:02:44Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-01T01:03:07Z cpc26_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T01:03:27Z pillton: electrojustin: If you are using slime you can perform macro expansion using C-c RET. 2015-04-01T01:03:55Z pillton: The cursor has to be positioned at the opening '('. 2015-04-01T01:04:39Z pjb: That said, macroexpansions of standard macros are almost always implementation dependent, and specific to the case, therefore it's better to read clhs to understand them. 2015-04-01T01:05:16Z pillton: C-c RET used to work when the cursor was at the ')' character. 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From my understanding that function 'macroexpand' should expand all macros at any depth, I was surprised when this nested macro was not expanded. 2015-04-01T03:03:01Z emaczen: am I understanding incorrectly? 2015-04-01T03:04:09Z Bike: yes 2015-04-01T03:04:29Z Bike: macroexpand doesn't go "in depth". it's pretty difficult to do so, in fact. 2015-04-01T03:05:26Z emaczen: Thanks Bike. 2015-04-01T03:06:07Z Bike: basically all it does is, if you give it (foo ...) and foo is a macro, it calls the macroexpander on the form. and if that returns another macro form, it expands that, etc. repeatedly. that's all. 2015-04-01T03:07:59Z electrojustin joined #lisp 2015-04-01T03:08:08Z emaczen: Mine is returning (stuff .... (nested-macro) more-stuff ...) -- is that a problem? 2015-04-01T03:09:13Z Bike: no, that is what i described 2015-04-01T03:10:48Z emaczen: sweet -- I'll keep debugging then. 2015-04-01T03:10:51Z bugrum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T03:10:59Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-01T03:11:19Z emaczen: Any suggestions for debuggin macros? I have just been using macroexpand, but since that won't travel depth-wise then it's not too great. 2015-04-01T03:11:27Z Bike: what are you trying to debug? 2015-04-01T03:12:06Z emaczen: (macro stuff .... (nested-macro) more-stuff ...) 2015-04-01T03:12:19Z emaczen: both macros look good when I don't use them together like that 2015-04-01T03:12:40Z Bike: i don't understand what issue you are having. 2015-04-01T03:13:07Z |3b|: slime C-c C-m is nice, you can continue to expand in the expansion buffer 2015-04-01T03:13:18Z beach joined #lisp 2015-04-01T03:13:18Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-04-01T03:13:37Z emaczen: Bike: Thanks for the help this far -- I just wanted to verify that what I was trying to do with macro expansion was working. 2015-04-01T03:13:44Z emaczen: |3b| thanks -- I'll check that out! 2015-04-01T03:13:46Z emaczen: morning becah 2015-04-01T03:13:48Z emaczen: beach* 2015-04-01T03:14:34Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-04-01T03:15:52Z emaczen: |3b| C-c C-m is really cool! 2015-04-01T03:16:46Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-04-01T03:17:25Z |3b|: another trick for debugging macros is that you can frequently copy the expansion, remove any #: and evaluate it directly, and poke at that to see what it is doing 2015-04-01T03:17:44Z |3b|: then when you see why it doesn't work, fix the macro to expand to the working version 2015-04-01T03:19:17Z MoALTz__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T03:19:37Z |3b|: or possibly expand it in place in a scratch buffer/file, i think there is a key to do that but don't remember what it is 2015-04-01T03:20:59Z beach: drmeister: Stealing SHIFTF from SBCL wouldn't be a good idea. I just reported that one defective as well. 2015-04-01T03:21:03Z hapislacker joined #lisp 2015-04-01T03:21:20Z |3b|: hmm, maybe not :( 2015-04-01T03:21:38Z emaczen: So, I've expanded the macros all the way with C-c C-m and pasted the expansion into my code and everything works. I'm confused as to why it does not work when I don't expand it. 2015-04-01T03:21:42Z nyef quit (Quit: G'night all) 2015-04-01T03:22:13Z |3b|: possibly doesn't get expanded in the order you tried it manually? 2015-04-01T03:22:21Z drmeister: It's defective as well - interesting. I modified ECL's SHIFTF based on reading SBCL's SHIFTF - I wonder if my hybrid has the problem. 2015-04-01T03:22:31Z drmeister: beach: Do you have a test case? 2015-04-01T03:22:49Z beach: drmeister: Hold on... 2015-04-01T03:22:57Z drmeister: You should check ROTATEF as well - the ECL version will suffer the same problem as SHIFTF 2015-04-01T03:23:03Z |3b|: ah, i guess M-x slime-macroexpand-1-inplace or something like that 2015-04-01T03:23:07Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-04-01T03:23:35Z |3b|: emaczen: maybe try starting with M-- C-c C-m 2015-04-01T03:23:49Z emaczen: |3b|: What is M-- ? 2015-04-01T03:23:52Z |3b|: which i think will expand outer macros fully if the expansion is a macro 2015-04-01T03:23:55Z beach: drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/+353V 2015-04-01T03:23:58Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-01T03:24:09Z hapislacker quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-01T03:24:23Z beach: drmeister: I will allow you to steal SHIFTF from SICL though. :) 2015-04-01T03:24:27Z hapislacker joined #lisp 2015-04-01T03:24:49Z beach: drmeister: Don't steal ROTATEF yet, though. Not sufficiently tested yet. 2015-04-01T03:24:51Z |3b|: emaczen: C-c C-m behaves differently with a prefix argument, M-- gives it one 2015-04-01T03:25:10Z |3b| isn't sure if it is a good one, no idea if i have a reason for using that 2015-04-01T03:25:30Z drmeister: Thank you. 2015-04-01T03:26:37Z emaczen: |3b|: I don't know how to enter M-- Is that just the meta key followed by typing the minus sign? 2015-04-01T03:26:43Z |3b|: right 2015-04-01T03:26:54Z |3b|: M-1 should work too, or C-u 2015-04-01T03:27:24Z emaczen: |3b|: Ok I can see that difference now. 2015-04-01T03:27:32Z emaczen: What happens is that it does not expand the nested macro 2015-04-01T03:28:08Z emaczen: What I have is (macro1 (macro2 ... a bunch of other stuff (macro3))) 2015-04-01T03:28:13Z emaczen: macro3 is not getting expanded 2015-04-01T03:28:22Z hapislacker quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-01T03:28:33Z |3b|: macro1 and macro2 have to expand to something that would leave (macro3) evaluated 2015-04-01T03:28:39Z hapislacker joined #lisp 2015-04-01T03:29:14Z |3b|: addin M-- just expand the outer call until it isn't a macro form, it doesn't expand nested calls 2015-04-01T03:29:58Z |3b|: but that's what CL would do, so might as well do so as well if doing it one layer at a time doesn't expose the problem 2015-04-01T03:30:30Z |3b|: so M-- C-c C-m on outer call, then on macro2 in expansion buffer, then make sure macro3 is somewhere it would be evaluated correctly 2015-04-01T03:30:48Z hapislacker quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-01T03:31:41Z emaczen: |3b|: I'm going to make a paste. 2015-04-01T03:32:10Z |3b|: that's another good method for debugging macros :) 2015-04-01T03:35:29Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-04-01T03:35:40Z beach: HAH! SHIFT in CLISP is defective too. 2015-04-01T03:36:27Z emaczen: |3b|: http://paste.lisp.org/+356Q 2015-04-01T03:36:29Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T03:37:33Z emaczen: |3b|: I'm pretty new to macros so it could be very simple :) 2015-04-01T03:38:18Z Slothrop joined #lisp 2015-04-01T03:38:31Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-01T03:38:34Z Slothrop is now known as Slother 2015-04-01T03:38:37Z Slother is now known as Slothel 2015-04-01T03:38:54Z Slothel: is it difficult to get a job using lisp if you don't have a degree? 2015-04-01T03:39:41Z mbuf: Slothel, I don't think there is a correlation 2015-04-01T03:40:08Z electrojustin: ...is it easy to get a job using lisp? 2015-04-01T03:40:36Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-01T03:40:38Z average joined #lisp 2015-04-01T03:41:24Z mbuf: electrojustin, you probably just need to know the right people 2015-04-01T03:42:36Z electrojustin: it's a really lovely language now that I'm getting to know it, but I was under the impression it's not incredibly popular in the industry for some reason 2015-04-01T03:43:45Z electrojustin: except maybe AI research 2015-04-01T03:44:04Z Bike: lisp hasn't been preferred in ai research for decades. 2015-04-01T03:44:41Z mbuf: electrojustin, don't get carried away with what is popular in the industry 2015-04-01T03:45:08Z mbuf: electrojustin, what you see may not always be the correct way 2015-04-01T03:45:11Z beach: Especially since the level of sophistication of the software industry is very very low. 2015-04-01T03:45:39Z electrojustin: oh the industry's opinion is pretty terrible in a lot of ways 2015-04-01T03:45:48Z mbuf: electrojustin, true 2015-04-01T03:45:51Z electrojustin: it's a shame the industry is how you earn a living 2015-04-01T03:46:13Z mbuf: electrojustin, you can choose to find your own way too 2015-04-01T03:46:38Z mbuf: electrojustin, maybe with some experience 2015-04-01T03:46:40Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-01T03:47:43Z emaczen: just in case my paste is dying: http://paste.lisp.org/+356Q :D 2015-04-01T03:47:54Z drmeister: beach: Cleavir/Clasp is now fully integrated into Clasp. It's the default compiler for COMPILE and COMPILE-FILE 2015-04-01T03:47:55Z emaczen: Does anybody need clarification? 2015-04-01T03:48:07Z beach: drmeister: Great! 2015-04-01T03:48:46Z Bike: emaczen: oh, well that explains everything. 2015-04-01T03:48:57Z Bike: what is this, cl-who? 2015-04-01T03:49:22Z emaczen: It's a library 2015-04-01T03:49:35Z emaczen: who stands for (with html output) 2015-04-01T03:49:44Z Bike: well, point is, if you had (:div :id "another-container" (+ 4 5)) would you expect to get 9 there? because that is not apparently how the library works 2015-04-01T03:49:48Z zacts quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T03:49:49Z Bike: i meant, is this code using the cl-who library 2015-04-01T03:50:16Z steelbird joined #lisp 2015-04-01T03:52:07Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-01T03:53:03Z emaczen: Bike: Are you familiar with cl-who? Do you any suggestions? 2015-04-01T03:53:58Z Bike: not that familiar. check http://weitz.de/cl-who/#syntax 2015-04-01T03:54:49Z |3b|: yeah, cl-who evaluation rules are easy to misunderstand 2015-04-01T03:55:26Z |3b| doesn't really remember the details though 2015-04-01T03:59:12Z |3b| is also going to sleep, so can't try to figure it out again at the moment, hopefully some cl-who user can suggest a better way to do that 2015-04-01T04:00:01Z emaczen: Thanks |3b|! 2015-04-01T04:00:54Z leo2007 left #lisp 2015-04-01T04:01:29Z electrojustin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-01T04:02:42Z beach: drmeister: It looks like you can use ROTATEF from SICL as well. 2015-04-01T04:03:19Z drmeister: Thank you. 2015-04-01T04:04:02Z boogie joined #lisp 2015-04-01T04:05:08Z drmeister: Do you have the only SHIFTF and ROTATEF macros that work in lispdom? 2015-04-01T04:05:28Z drmeister: Yours are considerably more complicated than the ones I saw today. 2015-04-01T04:05:35Z beach: Maybe so. I am very surprised that the existing ones are so defective. 2015-04-01T04:06:15Z beach: It is probably because they use iteration rather than recursion. 2015-04-01T04:08:24Z drmeister: beach: Do these macros have any dependencies other than Common Lisp? 2015-04-01T04:08:47Z beach: I don't think so. 2015-04-01T04:08:54Z drmeister: Spot checking says no. 2015-04-01T04:10:36Z beach: *sigh*. I wish I had the energy to add these test cases to the ANSI test suite as I try them out. 2015-04-01T04:11:56Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-04-01T04:13:23Z electrojustin joined #lisp 2015-04-01T04:14:31Z beach: I should really do what I intended a few months ago, namely to grab the ANSI test suite and put in my GitHub repositories. 2015-04-01T04:19:22Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-01T04:19:47Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T04:21:09Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-01T04:22:44Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-01T04:25:03Z drmeister: beach: Is the for (nil nil store-variables) part valid? http://paste.lisp.org/display/146693 2015-04-01T04:25:58Z drmeister: Is it a destructuring FOR where the first two bindings are thrown away? 2015-04-01T04:26:17Z emaczen: For anyone interested, in my CL-WHO macroexpansion issue, it was that you have to prefix your html forms with (cl-who: rest-of-your-html-forms) 2015-04-01T04:28:17Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-04-01T04:28:21Z steelbird quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-01T04:29:18Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-04-01T04:34:03Z ajtulloch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T04:34:45Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-01T04:36:46Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-01T04:38:14Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T04:38:20Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-01T04:42:03Z PuercoPop: oi, is there a way to choose the text encoding used by yason? 2015-04-01T04:42:50Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T04:44:30Z smokeink_ joined #lisp 2015-04-01T04:44:57Z smokeink quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T04:45:33Z drmeister: beach: I ran into a bootstrapping problem with the SHIFTF macro - you use LOOP - I don't have loop at that point. I'll expand the LOOP macro by hand. 2015-04-01T04:47:25Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-01T04:49:48Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-01T04:51:21Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2015-04-01T04:52:37Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-01T04:53:09Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T04:54:10Z electrojustin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T04:54:20Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-01T04:54:47Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-04-01T04:55:07Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-04-01T04:56:25Z beach: drmeister: Yes, it is valid. 2015-04-01T04:56:36Z beach: drmeister: Too bad about the bootstrapping problem. 2015-04-01T04:56:45Z drmeister: Yeah - the problem is the LOOP macro at that point. 2015-04-01T04:56:50Z beach: It will make the code a lot less understandable. 2015-04-01T04:56:59Z drmeister: It sure does. 2015-04-01T04:57:06Z beach: ... and we are back to bootstrapping issues. 2015-04-01T04:57:54Z drmeister: Always - I can't use X when I don't have X. Rule #1 of bootstrapping. 2015-04-01T04:58:11Z beach: I disagree. 2015-04-01T04:59:23Z beach: It is just rule #1 of bootstrapping for systems that insist on not using a full Common Lisp implementation to bootstrap. :) 2015-04-01T05:00:44Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-01T05:00:54Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-01T05:01:10Z beach: Last night (UTC+2) I asked for help with a benchmark on LispWorks, but nobody could help then. Is anybody around with access to LispWorks now? 2015-04-01T05:01:20Z beach: I need to check whether COUNT with :FROM-END T allocates memory. For that, please do (defparameter *l* (make-list 10000000 :initial-element 'a)) and then (time (count 'b *l* :from-end t)). 2015-04-01T05:01:20Z boogie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T05:01:45Z beach: It might be necessary to stick it in a function (defun ff () (time (count ...))) and compile it, but I don't know that for sure. 2015-04-01T05:02:56Z beach: drmeister: What part of Clasp itself makes use of SHIFTF? 2015-04-01T05:03:19Z drmeister: I'm looking into that. I may not need SHIFTF until later. 2015-04-01T05:03:35Z beach: That's what I was hinting. 2015-04-01T05:03:52Z drmeister: SOP 2015-04-01T05:04:08Z jtz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-01T05:05:15Z beach: It is used in subtypep.lisp 2015-04-01T05:06:11Z beach: (shiftf *type-counter* (1+ *type-counter*)) 2015-04-01T05:06:37Z beach: But that should be the same as (prog1 *type-counter* (incf *type-counter*)), no? 2015-04-01T05:07:17Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-01T05:07:34Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T05:11:07Z beach: drmeister: Sometime in the future when SICL is closer to completion, I'll help you figure out how to get rid of the bootstrapping problems in Clasp. 2015-04-01T05:13:52Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T05:14:05Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T05:16:51Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-01T05:17:41Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-01T05:18:07Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-01T05:19:01Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2015-04-01T05:22:21Z drmeister: SHIFTF and ROTATEF aren't required until after LOOP is defined - so I just need to do a little rearranging. 2015-04-01T05:22:35Z caller joined #lisp 2015-04-01T05:25:34Z caller: I have a rather complicated problem to explain. http://paste.lisp.org/display/146698 in this code, the ultimate goal is to split a file into vectors, where it is expected that the file consists of a known header and known sized data packets appended. This function uses read-sequence to place each packet into a vector. the pasted code doesn't work the way I'm expecting it to 2015-04-01T05:26:04Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-01T05:27:27Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-01T05:27:35Z caller: I added the format to see what was going on with each call. if I call this function with :limit set to 2 for example, the format call runs 3 times and displays correct data. however, when loop returns, I only get a list of two vectors whose contents are identical, and set to the last data packet read in, almost as if the collecting construct in the loop is constructing a list of references to input-vec which at return time all resolv 2015-04-01T05:27:44Z caller: call to read-sequence on input-vec 2015-04-01T05:28:22Z beach: caller: There is only a single vector allocated there. 2015-04-01T05:28:53Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-04-01T05:29:07Z beach: caller: I would imagine you need to call MAKE-ARRAY inside the loop. No? 2015-04-01T05:29:19Z caller: beach: since read-sequence is supposed to destructively modify the supplied sequence, I was assuming that this would behave as if there would only need to be one vector that is continually overwritten 2015-04-01T05:29:42Z caller: beach: it seems that you're right but I don't know why exactly 2015-04-01T05:29:56Z wz1000 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T05:29:57Z beach: caller: That is true. But the identity of that vector never changes, so you return a list of N times the same vector. 2015-04-01T05:30:50Z beach: caller: Common Lisp uses what I call "uniform reference semantics", i.e., nothing is ever implicitly copied. Hence, you have a single vector. 2015-04-01T05:30:53Z teiresia1 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T05:30:53Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T05:31:02Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-01T05:31:15Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-04-01T05:31:53Z beach: caller: If it is easier for you, think of INPUT-VEC as an address in memory that never changes in the loop. 2015-04-01T05:32:18Z teiresia1 quit (Changing host) 2015-04-01T05:32:18Z teiresia1 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T05:32:40Z beach: The contents of that vector is overwritten each time in the loop, but the address remains the same. And then you return N times that single address. 2015-04-01T05:34:22Z teiresias quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T05:34:30Z caller: ok 2015-04-01T05:36:10Z a2015 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T05:36:57Z caller: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146698#1 2015-04-01T05:37:45Z caller: beach: so I moved the make-array call down into the loop, but 2015-04-01T05:38:17Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-04-01T05:38:29Z caller: while this works, why don't I need to provide a "then" construct in order to have input-vec be made into a new array each iteration? 2015-04-01T05:39:05Z beach: "then"? 2015-04-01T05:39:33Z beach: caller: LOOP semantics says that FOR =
is evaluated in each iterations. 2015-04-01T05:39:34Z caller: as in, for bytes-read = (blah) then (blah) 2015-04-01T05:39:41Z beach: Oh. 2015-04-01T05:39:50Z caller: means that bytes-read gets initialized but then (read-sequence is called each iteration to update the value of bytes read 2015-04-01T05:39:53Z beach: Because of what I just said. 2015-04-01T05:40:04Z caller: oh 2015-04-01T05:40:37Z beach: So you should be able to remove your existing THEN. 2015-04-01T05:41:23Z beach: And you can replace FOR COUNT = 0 THEN (1+ COUNT) by for COUNT FROM 0. 2015-04-01T05:41:55Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T05:42:06Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T05:43:43Z caller: bytes: again didn't read far enough, thanks 2015-04-01T05:45:04Z beach: So is it working now? 2015-04-01T05:45:48Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T05:46:37Z caller: beach: yes thank you. http://paste.lisp.org/display/146698#2 2015-04-01T05:47:04Z beach: No problem. 2015-04-01T05:47:04Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T05:47:32Z {[]}grant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T05:47:58Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-01T05:48:05Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-01T05:48:10Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-01T05:50:08Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-04-01T05:50:55Z Fare changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs:|contact op if muted| cl-launch 4.1.2, Drakma 1.3.14, Hunchentoot 1.2.31, SBCL 1.2.9 2015-04-01T05:51:11Z Fare is quite proud of cl-launch 4.1.2 2015-04-01T05:52:05Z Fare: sure, the new --dispatched-entry feature is "just playing catchup with buildapp", but it works on 10+ CL implementations, when buildapp just works on two. 2015-04-01T05:52:58Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-01T05:53:15Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T05:53:30Z Fare: in any case, I am now replacing all my shell scripts with a multi-call binary written in CL, and that's cool. 2015-04-01T05:53:47Z caller: beach: I appreciate the help 2015-04-01T05:53:56Z beach: caller: Lisp has used uniform reference semantics since before 1960, but for the past decade or so, new "popular" languages also use it. It's the right thing to do. So you will find this kind of semantics in more languages nowadays. 2015-04-01T05:54:02Z beach: caller: Anytime! 2015-04-01T05:54:03Z Fare: http://cliki.net/cl-launch 2015-04-01T05:54:46Z Fare: no more perl-like @_ vs $_ 2015-04-01T05:55:04Z {[]}grant joined #lisp 2015-04-01T05:55:24Z Shinmera: Guoood Muooaarning, #lisp. 2015-04-01T05:55:39Z beach: Fare: Congratulations! 2015-04-01T05:55:40Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-01T05:55:44Z caller: beach: so i'm using my spiffy new function, and i'm calling it with (time .. on my implementation i'm being told that its spending nearly half the time in garbage collection. what can I read to learn about how I can change the behavior of my function to avoid this? 2015-04-01T05:55:44Z beach: Hi Shinmera 2015-04-01T05:56:19Z Shinmera: beach: Busy finding bugs in implementations, I see. 2015-04-01T05:56:29Z beach: Shinmera: Heh! Yeah. 2015-04-01T05:56:45Z drmeister: Shinmera: Cleavir/Clasp is now fully integrated - it's the default Clasp compiler. 2015-04-01T05:56:58Z Shinmera: drmeister: So I read. I'm looking forward to doing tests again. 2015-04-01T05:57:21Z drmeister: It will take me a few more days to stabilize things. 2015-04-01T05:57:24Z beach: caller: It may be hard to avoid, depending on what you do with your vectors after you read them. It also may not be a problem. 2015-04-01T05:57:42Z beach: Shinmera: You have access to LispWorks, right? 2015-04-01T05:57:54Z Shinmera: beach: Re the document protocol: I'm not sure if there was some kind of misunderstanding there at some point. I never got to a stage where I could write code. I only ever did a bunch of brainstorming on it to find possible solutions. 2015-04-01T05:58:14Z beach: Shinmera: I see. No problem. 2015-04-01T05:58:15Z Shinmera: beach: Not on my laptop, unfortunately. And I only have the free version (which you could get too) 2015-04-01T05:58:26Z zacts quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T05:58:29Z Shinmera: beach: I should definitely write my thoughts down in full somewhere though. 2015-04-01T05:58:39Z Shinmera makes a todo 2015-04-01T05:58:51Z beach: Shinmera: I could get it, but it looked complicated to install 32-bit libraries. 2015-04-01T05:58:56Z beach: I'll ask someone else. 2015-04-01T05:59:02Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T05:59:36Z Shinmera: I don't recall having had any issues with that. 2015-04-01T06:00:10Z beach: I am sure it's straightforward. I just don't know how. :) Don't worry about it. I'll figure it out. 2015-04-01T06:00:17Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-01T06:00:21Z Shinmera: I trust you will. 2015-04-01T06:00:24Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T06:02:23Z Shinmera: (iirc on debian-like systems it's something like dpkg --add-architecture i386 and then apt-get the libs you need with :i386 appended) 2015-04-01T06:02:54Z beach: Looks easy enough. Thanks. 2015-04-01T06:03:28Z beach: caller: What implementation are you using? 2015-04-01T06:04:01Z caller: beach: ccl on osx 2015-04-01T06:04:38Z beach: That should be pretty good. 2015-04-01T06:04:45Z beach: Do you need to worry about GC times? 2015-04-01T06:06:23Z Fare: beach: do you have any shell script? 2015-04-01T06:06:44Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-01T06:06:53Z selat quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T06:06:54Z beach: Fare: I don't. But when I need to write one, I'll think of cl-launch. 2015-04-01T06:07:02Z Fare: :-) 2015-04-01T06:07:18Z Fare: cl-launch: the last shell script I'll ever need. 2015-04-01T06:07:54Z Shinmera: The only big shell scripts I ever wrote were ones for my company, for which I couldn't have used CL, and my build-sbcl.sh script, which I suppose I could translate to CL. 2015-04-01T06:07:55Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-01T06:08:41Z Fare: drmeister, did you get performance improvements using cleavir? 2015-04-01T06:08:50Z Shinmera: By "big" I mean "bigger than just 'cd here' 'run that'" 2015-04-01T06:08:57Z beach: Fare: A factor 2 or so. 2015-04-01T06:09:07Z Fare: a great start! 2015-04-01T06:09:16Z beach: caller: I need to go. I'll leave you in the capable hands of other #lisp participants. 2015-04-01T06:09:18Z selat quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-01T06:09:20Z beach left #lisp 2015-04-01T06:09:37Z Fare: but if it was >100x too slow, that's still 50x too slow :-( 2015-04-01T06:11:49Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-01T06:12:09Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-01T06:13:06Z Fare left #lisp 2015-04-01T06:20:06Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-01T06:20:06Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-04-01T06:20:06Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-01T06:20:24Z drmeister: Fare: It's more nuanced than that. Clasp was 100x slower than SBCL running an integer loop. Clasp doesn't do arithmetic well yet. 2015-04-01T06:22:43Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-01T06:26:12Z drmeister: Next up I'll incorporate immediate FIXNUMs and I'll add support for beach's unboxed arithmetic routines. That should speed that up a lot. 2015-04-01T06:26:38Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T06:26:41Z drmeister: beach: How far along are the unboxed arithmetic instructions? 2015-04-01T06:27:05Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-01T06:27:52Z drmeister: I guess the fixnum instructions are more relevant. 2015-04-01T06:34:13Z Shinmera: drmeister: Isn't it like 5Am by now where you're at? 2015-04-01T06:34:37Z drmeister: Have to do the math. 2015-04-01T06:35:10Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-04-01T06:35:16Z drmeister: It's 2:30am in Philadelpha - but I'm in Vancouver at the moment and I've acclimatized to Left Coast time. 2015-04-01T06:35:50Z Shinmera: !google time Vancouver 2015-04-01T06:35:53Z Shinmera: Ech 2015-04-01T06:35:59Z Shinmera: Colleen: do google time Vancouver 2015-04-01T06:35:59Z Colleen: Time for Vancouver: 2015.03.31 23:35:59 America/Los_Angeles, Pacific Daylight Time (UTC-8.0, DST+1.0) 2015-04-01T06:36:11Z Shinmera: I see. You had me worried already! 2015-04-01T06:36:33Z drmeister: It's not uncommon for me to be up at this time in Philadelphia either. 2015-04-01T06:37:04Z drmeister: Software happens when everyone else is asleep. 2015-04-01T06:37:44Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T06:37:49Z Shinmera: Code for me happens best in early mornings or early afternoons. Late nights are for depression and self-hatred, but that's for another place. 2015-04-01T06:41:09Z drmeister: Since I dropped weight and started exercising regularly I have less time for that - that's a good thing. 2015-04-01T06:43:44Z Shinmera: Have you worked out your presentation for ELS yet? 2015-04-01T06:44:12Z Shinmera: I forgot what I read about that in the logs. 2015-04-01T06:44:45Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-01T06:44:58Z zacharias quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-01T06:45:11Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-01T06:49:01Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-04-01T06:49:19Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-01T06:53:44Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T06:58:14Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:00:12Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:00:25Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-01T07:01:02Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:01:44Z devll joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:05:05Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:05:31Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T07:07:10Z jtz joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:08:36Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:09:13Z Shinmera: SAL9000: A fix for Plump's parsing strategy on missing closing tags is in. 2015-04-01T07:09:14Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:09:34Z pt1 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-04-01T07:09:47Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:12:52Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:16:33Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:19:21Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:21:39Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:21:55Z kcj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T07:22:01Z agumonkey quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-01T07:22:19Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-01T07:23:27Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:24:02Z paul0`` joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:24:50Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-01T07:27:13Z emaczen: where can I get a pdf of AMOP? 2015-04-01T07:27:17Z paul0` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-01T07:27:35Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-04-01T07:28:26Z Bike: i don't know that it's been legally digitized 2015-04-01T07:28:52Z ramus joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:29:59Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:34:45Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:34:53Z harish quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-01T07:35:22Z harish joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:35:53Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-01T07:36:38Z wicope joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:36:39Z wicope quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-01T07:37:06Z wicope joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:40:25Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:45:38Z devll quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T07:47:19Z f3lp quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-01T07:50:38Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:51:03Z arenz joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:51:32Z jackdaniel: o/ 2015-04-01T07:51:33Z minion: jackdaniel, memo from drmeister: here is a fixed up SHIFTF macro - I recommend testing it thoroughly: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146684 2015-04-01T07:51:33Z minion: jackdaniel, memo from drmeister: ROTATEF will suffer the same problem - I don't have time to fix that as well. 2015-04-01T07:51:46Z jackdaniel read backlog already 2015-04-01T07:51:56Z jackdaniel: out of curiosity :p 2015-04-01T07:52:47Z balle joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:53:25Z jackdaniel: memo for drmeister: as I understood from backlog, fix you proposed is invalid as well due to sbcl having similar issues? 2015-04-01T07:53:33Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for drmeister: as I understood from backlog, fix you proposed is invalid as well due to sbcl having similar issues? 2015-04-01T07:53:34Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell drmeister when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-04-01T07:55:46Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-01T07:57:16Z balle left #lisp 2015-04-01T07:57:28Z balle joined #lisp 2015-04-01T07:58:37Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-04-01T08:02:22Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-01T08:03:39Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-04-01T08:03:49Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T08:04:00Z f3lp joined #lisp 2015-04-01T08:06:45Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T08:07:19Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-04-01T08:08:19Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-04-01T08:13:13Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-04-01T08:16:40Z qubitnerd quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-01T08:18:02Z mvilleneuve_ joined #lisp 2015-04-01T08:19:05Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-01T08:19:47Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-04-01T08:21:55Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-01T08:25:36Z pranavrc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T08:25:41Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T08:27:14Z f3lp quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-01T08:28:05Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T08:29:23Z jack-zhang joined #lisp 2015-04-01T08:30:32Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-01T08:30:41Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-01T08:30:50Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2015-04-01T08:30:54Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-01T08:32:03Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-04-01T08:32:34Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-01T08:33:29Z f3lp joined #lisp 2015-04-01T08:33:44Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T08:34:28Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-01T08:35:28Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-01T08:39:33Z vrrm joined #lisp 2015-04-01T08:41:57Z vr-rm quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T08:51:35Z jack-zhang quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T08:53:41Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-01T08:53:41Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-04-01T08:53:41Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-01T08:55:08Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-01T08:59:26Z s1n4 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-01T08:59:55Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T09:00:24Z d4ryus_ joined #lisp 2015-04-01T09:00:59Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-01T09:01:54Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-01T09:01:57Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T09:01:58Z Trioxin joined #lisp 2015-04-01T09:02:53Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-01T09:04:29Z Trioxin_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-01T09:09:18Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-01T09:12:26Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T09:12:52Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-04-01T09:14:13Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T09:17:15Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-04-01T09:22:39Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T09:29:53Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-01T09:30:21Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-01T09:30:35Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-01T09:31:41Z Niac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T09:34:10Z caller quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-01T09:35:24Z Adlai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T09:36:29Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T09:40:25Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-01T09:41:43Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-01T09:42:36Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T09:43:15Z kaiyin joined #lisp 2015-04-01T09:43:25Z kaiyin: what's difference between let and let*? 2015-04-01T09:43:29Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-01T09:43:29Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-04-01T09:44:26Z jackdaniel: kaiyin: (let* (a b c) ...) is equivalent to (let (a) (let (b) (let (c) ...))) 2015-04-01T09:44:40Z francogrex: hi I am having some errors in sbcl when I call some packages for example I tried to load iterate and I get: COMPILE-FILE-ERROR UIOP/LISP-BUILD:CHECK-LISP-COMPILE-RESULTS NIL T T "~/asdf-action::format-action/ ... 2015-04-01T09:44:49Z francogrex: any idea why it could be? 2015-04-01T09:44:54Z jackdaniel: so in let* you can use variables bounded above, in let on the other hand you can't, you have to nest them 2015-04-01T09:45:04Z kaiyin: jackdaniel: ok. so b can use a, and c can use a and b. 2015-04-01T09:45:11Z jackdaniel: exactly 2015-04-01T09:45:18Z kaiyin: cool 2015-04-01T09:46:08Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T09:46:40Z francogrex: it's only a very few packages that generate that error; most load very fine! 2015-04-01T09:46:49Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-04-01T09:47:22Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-01T09:47:27Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T09:49:29Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-01T09:49:58Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-01T09:53:08Z k-dawg quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-01T09:53:11Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-04-01T09:53:21Z devll joined #lisp 2015-04-01T09:55:46Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-01T09:56:23Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-04-01T10:02:07Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-01T10:02:20Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-01T10:03:52Z hall joined #lisp 2015-04-01T10:03:55Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-01T10:05:01Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T10:05:22Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-01T10:05:23Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T10:05:27Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-01T10:05:59Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T10:08:03Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-01T10:08:29Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T10:09:20Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T10:12:18Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T10:14:39Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-01T10:15:32Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T10:16:41Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T10:18:07Z wicope quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T10:19:37Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-01T10:19:46Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-01T10:20:39Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T10:20:59Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T10:21:30Z teiresia1 is now known as teiresias 2015-04-01T10:24:37Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-01T10:30:41Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T10:32:05Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T10:32:56Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-01T10:34:18Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-01T10:35:02Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-01T10:35:02Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-04-01T10:35:02Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-01T10:35:09Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-04-01T10:35:48Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T10:41:19Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-01T10:43:38Z francogrex quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T10:43:53Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Can you have multiple IF statments in a LOOP? 2015-04-01T12:12:45Z Jaskologist joined #lisp 2015-04-01T12:12:59Z Shinmera: Cymew: the BNF is quite clear. you can have none or more main-clauses, and a choice of the main clause is a conditional, which includes if. 2015-04-01T12:14:08Z ggole: You can have multiple, chain them with else, etc 2015-04-01T12:14:37Z smokeink_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T12:15:02Z Cymew: It's me not getting the syntax correct AND not getting the CLHS then. Great. 2015-04-01T12:15:05Z Cymew: Thanks 2015-04-01T12:15:48Z mvilleneuve__ joined #lisp 2015-04-01T12:16:16Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T12:16:46Z Cymew: I've always just used DOTIMES, MAPCAR and recursive solutions. Using LOOP and DO every day suddenly makes me feel interation in CL is strangely hard to get right... 2015-04-01T12:16:58Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-01T12:17:33Z Shinmera: You don't /have/ to use the if in loop, you can always just do (loop .. do (if foo bar baz)) etc. 2015-04-01T12:17:40Z mvilleneuve_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-01T12:18:42Z Shinmera: if/when/unless in loop are only really useful in combination with the accumulation parts. 2015-04-01T12:20:18Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-01T12:22:22Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2015-04-01T12:22:26Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T12:23:30Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-04-01T12:23:45Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-01T12:24:25Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-01T12:25:23Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T12:28:55Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T12:28:56Z Cymew: I guess what I should do is to use a COND inside the LOOP, but it would mean using a lot of hackery to break out of the LOOP 2015-04-01T12:29:24Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-01T12:30:03Z mood: Why would it mean using a lot of hackery? Can't you just RETURN or RETURN-FROM? 2015-04-01T12:30:08Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-01T12:30:49Z isoraqathedh: Or (loop-finish)? 2015-04-01T12:30:54Z Cymew: yeah, which feels like hackery when there are termination clauses in LOOP 2015-04-01T12:31:15Z Cymew: There's a LOOP-FINISH? 2015-04-01T12:31:38Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-04-01T12:31:49Z Cymew: Man, you could get lost in the woods that's all the clauses in LOOP... 2015-04-01T12:32:09Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-04-01T12:32:09Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-04-01T12:32:18Z Cymew: Thanks for the map, everyone. ;) 2015-04-01T12:34:49Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T12:35:53Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-01T12:36:45Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-04-01T12:40:12Z Xach: My strategy is to not use loop when it gets confusing 2015-04-01T12:44:05Z mishoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T12:44:31Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-04-01T12:51:13Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-01T12:51:13Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-04-01T12:51:13Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-01T12:51:52Z girrig quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T12:54:41Z girrig joined #lisp 2015-04-01T12:57:02Z s1n4 quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-01T12:57:47Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-01T13:01:07Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-01T13:02:17Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T13:02:39Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-01T13:05:11Z kyugyi joined #lisp 2015-04-01T13:05:13Z kyugyi: . 2015-04-01T13:05:14Z kyugyi: did usa covertly supply isis with weapons like they did with al-qaeda to justify creating wars? 2015-04-01T13:05:14Z kyugyi: did usa excute the creative mess in the middle east like they said they will, does the creative mess include explosions with uncertain responsibles to create wars? 2015-04-01T13:05:14Z kyugyi: plz, send my qs to help limiting usa&israel aggression against others. 2015-04-01T13:05:14Z kyugyi: .did usa covertly supply isis with weapons like they did with al-qaeda to justify creating wars? 2015-04-01T13:05:14Z kyugyi: did usa excute the creative mess in the middle east like they said they will, does the creative mess include explosions with uncertain responsibles to create wars? 2015-04-01T13:05:15Z kyugyi: plz, send my qs to help limiting usa&israel aggression against others. 2015-04-01T13:05:32Z kyugyi quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-01T13:05:43Z kyugyi joined #lisp 2015-04-01T13:05:45Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 2015-04-01T13:05:48Z Xach has set mode +b *!*bjkvgr@197.193.17.* 2015-04-01T13:05:51Z kyugyi [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (kyugyi) 2015-04-01T13:05:55Z Xach has set mode -o Xach 2015-04-01T13:06:10Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-01T13:08:03Z electrojustin joined #lisp 2015-04-01T13:10:43Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T13:11:09Z mbuf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-01T13:11:15Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-04-01T13:11:49Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-01T13:11:53Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-04-01T13:14:09Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-01T13:14:21Z Shinmera quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-01T13:14:44Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-01T13:16:10Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-04-01T13:20:23Z REPLeffect joined #lisp 2015-04-01T13:21:27Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-04-01T13:22:15Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-04-01T13:22:57Z Cymew: Xach: Not very often at all then. 2015-04-01T13:25:17Z Xach: Cymew: sometimes it's the simplest option for a particular task. 2015-04-01T13:25:20Z fe[nl]ix_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-01T13:25:30Z Xach: like "loop through each element of a list and do something with the element and its numeric index" 2015-04-01T13:25:40Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-01T13:26:13Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T13:27:36Z Cymew: I think I've spent way to much time with it, using it for everything 2015-04-01T13:29:13Z Xach: I think it's good to use a mix of things. 2015-04-01T13:31:48Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T13:31:59Z gklimowicz quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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There's no special hinting or indenting or markup as you do when you use actual forms. 2015-04-01T13:54:28Z Shinmera: *as you do have 2015-04-01T13:55:54Z Cymew: That would have been really nice to have 2015-04-01T13:56:19Z Shinmera: There's a slime contrib (iirc) that adds /some/ indenting support, but it's not enough. 2015-04-01T13:56:34Z wicope joined #lisp 2015-04-01T13:56:40Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-01T13:57:46Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-01T14:00:09Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-04-01T14:02:02Z jdz: i'm using slime-indentation contrib, and for me LOOP is being indented as i like it 2015-04-01T14:02:04Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T14:02:05Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-01T14:02:20Z jdz: i'm not even sure it is because of that contrib 2015-04-01T14:02:44Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-01T14:02:46Z Shinmera: I think it is. There's a variable that controls it too, I think I have that set to off. 2015-04-01T14:03:12Z Shinmera: Ah, here we go. https://github.com/Shinmera/.emacs/blob/master/shinmera-lisp.el#L30 2015-04-01T14:03:44Z jdz: (setq lisp-lambda-list-keyword-parameter-alignment t lisp-lambda-list-keyword-alignment t) 2015-04-01T14:03:47Z ruste quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T14:03:53Z jdz: i only have those customised 2015-04-01T14:04:17Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-01T14:04:55Z gklimowicz joined #lisp 2015-04-01T14:06:03Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-01T14:06:53Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-01T14:07:14Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T14:07:31Z splittist: you can have named indentation styles on a per-file basis e.g. ;; -*- common-lisp-style: sbcl -*- 2015-04-01T14:07:54Z jdz: there can be only one! 2015-04-01T14:09:16Z electrojustin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-01T14:11:13Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T14:11:35Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T14:24:00Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-04-01T14:24:33Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-01T14:26:00Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-01T14:26:53Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T14:27:45Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-04-01T14:28:58Z PuercoPop: Cymew: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_dab.htm this explain's the BNF syntax used in the clhs 2015-04-01T14:31:02Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T14:32:33Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-04-01T14:32:33Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2015-04-01T14:32:33Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-04-01T14:32:55Z vdamewood quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-04-01T14:33:31Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-01T14:37:14Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-04-01T14:38:58Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T14:39:17Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-04-01T14:41:23Z ruste joined #lisp 2015-04-01T14:43:18Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-01T14:43:25Z devll quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-01T14:43:51Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T14:44:03Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-04-01T14:44:04Z Cymew: PuercoPop: Thanks. Always more to read in the CLHS... 2015-04-01T14:44:08Z average is now known as woobz 2015-04-01T14:44:21Z woobz is now known as average 2015-04-01T14:49:26Z kbtr quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-01T14:51:25Z pjb: minion: memo for emaczen: you can use #+clisp (ext:expand-form form) or #-clisp (swank:swank-macroexpand-all (prin1-to-string form)) to expand all the macros in a form. 2015-04-01T14:51:27Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell emaczen when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-04-01T14:52:17Z kbtr joined #lisp 2015-04-01T14:53:03Z dfinninger joined #lisp 2015-04-01T14:53:34Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-01T14:56:14Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-01T14:58:32Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-01T14:59:46Z pjb: minion: memo for caller: your initially clause is not placed in the correct position. Check 6.1.7.2 "The initially construct causes the supplied compound-forms to be evaluated in the loop prologue, which precedes all loop code except for initial settings supplied by constructs with, for, or as." Most implementations are not conforming here, clisp and cmucl are good. 2015-04-01T14:59:46Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell caller when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-04-01T15:02:01Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-01T15:03:17Z f3lp quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-01T15:03:26Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-04-01T15:03:44Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-01T15:05:02Z electrojustin joined #lisp 2015-04-01T15:07:36Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-01T15:08:19Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-01T15:11:21Z balle quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T15:12:05Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T15:13:37Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-01T15:16:52Z pjb: (defmacro if (c th el) `(loop :repeat 1 :if ,c :then (progn ,th) :else (progn ,el))) 2015-04-01T15:18:16Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-01T15:24:25Z clog quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-01T15:25:35Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T15:28:19Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-01T15:29:29Z s1n4 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T15:32:28Z clog joined #lisp 2015-04-01T15:32:34Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T15:33:43Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-04-01T15:33:47Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-01T15:36:06Z kaiyin joined #lisp 2015-04-01T15:36:43Z kaiyin: https://gist.github.com/kindlychung/2328e7e1ca3dd9d4224f why aren't single, double, and double-cheese quoted in the ingredients function? 2015-04-01T15:36:48Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-01T15:37:49Z pjb: kaiyin: because they are not evaluated. 2015-04-01T15:37:49Z lagomorph quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T15:38:02Z Xach: kaiyin: CASE is not a function, and that is how its syntax works. 2015-04-01T15:38:22Z Xach: its keys are not evaluated. 2015-04-01T15:38:23Z kaiyin: ok, i see. 2015-04-01T15:38:53Z pjb: kaiyin: notice that it means that: (case n ((+ 1 2) 'three) (otherwise 'not-3)) doesn't return THREE for N=3. 2015-04-01T15:39:10Z pjb: it returns THREE of N=+ or N=1 or N=2. 2015-04-01T15:39:17Z pjb: s/of/for/ 2015-04-01T15:39:45Z kaiyin: ah, interesting. 2015-04-01T15:40:35Z Raccoon joined #lisp 2015-04-01T15:40:46Z Raccoon changed the topic of #lisp to: HAPPY APRIL FOOLS DAY! | Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs:|contact op if muted| cl-launch 4.1.2, Drakma 1.3.14, Hunchentoot 1.2.31, SBCL 1.2.9 2015-04-01T15:40:55Z Raccoon left #lisp 2015-04-01T15:42:21Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T15:42:36Z lagomorph joined #lisp 2015-04-01T15:44:37Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2015-04-01T15:45:39Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T15:45:49Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-01T15:46:02Z redeemed quit (Quit: q) 2015-04-01T15:46:05Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-04-01T15:47:33Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-01T15:48:25Z a2015 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-01T15:51:12Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-01T15:51:24Z drmeister: Hello 2015-04-01T15:51:25Z minion: drmeister, memo from jackdaniel: as I understood from backlog, fix you proposed is invalid as well due to sbcl having similar issues? 2015-04-01T15:51:44Z drmeister: Apparently 2015-04-01T15:52:02Z drmeister: jackdaniel: Are you online? 2015-04-01T15:52:23Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T15:54:05Z drmeister: minion: memo for jackdaniel: Apparently - beach discovered the problem in sbcl and clisp (if I recall properly). I incorporated beach's SHIFTF and ROTATEF into Clasp - however they make use of the LOOP macro so I had to do some rearranging to avoid bootstrapping issues. 2015-04-01T15:54:06Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jackdaniel when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-04-01T15:55:11Z boogie joined #lisp 2015-04-01T15:58:49Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-01T15:58:49Z kaiyin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-01T15:59:01Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T15:59:41Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T16:00:15Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-01T16:03:16Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-04-01T16:05:34Z lmohseni joined #lisp 2015-04-01T16:06:17Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T16:09:17Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T16:11:39Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-04-01T16:14:52Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T16:14:55Z electrojustin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-01T16:15:01Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T16:16:36Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-01T16:17:48Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-01T16:18:13Z amador joined #lisp 2015-04-01T16:20:22Z mvilleneuve__ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-01T16:20:47Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-01T16:21:32Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T16:22:55Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-01T16:28:07Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-01T16:28:39Z ssake_ joined #lisp 2015-04-01T16:29:04Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-01T16:29:22Z amador quit 2015-04-01T16:37:14Z lmohseni: \bye 2015-04-01T16:37:16Z lmohseni quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-01T16:37:34Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-04-01T16:39:25Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-04-01T16:43:12Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-01T16:43:54Z _leb joined #lisp 2015-04-01T16:44:44Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-04-01T16:46:06Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T16:48:27Z Patzy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T16:48:35Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-01T16:54:47Z mrSpec quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-04-01T16:57:05Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-01T16:57:23Z dfinninger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T16:58:54Z flip214: Can hunchentoot's static-file handler send an expire header, too? 2015-04-01T16:59:58Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:00:36Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-01T17:00:46Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T17:06:15Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-01T17:09:35Z shka joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:09:37Z shka: hi 2015-04-01T17:09:53Z shka: does anybody know how to add "required" tag with cl-markup? 2015-04-01T17:13:51Z jasom: flip214: yes it can 2015-04-01T17:14:26Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-01T17:14:33Z jasom: flip214: well sort-of; you can set up some headers and then pass it on to the static-file handler 2015-04-01T17:16:02Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-01T17:16:24Z jasom: shka: what is the required tag? 2015-04-01T17:16:27Z JokesOnYou77 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:16:33Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:16:43Z shka: jasom: it is attribute that can be added to the input form 2015-04-01T17:16:49Z jasom: oh, attribute, not tag 2015-04-01T17:16:55Z shka: yes, sorry 2015-04-01T17:17:04Z shka: i'm web-dev noob 2015-04-01T17:17:34Z jasom: I assume something like (:input :required t ...) 2015-04-01T17:18:03Z jasom: nope, that doesn't work right... 2015-04-01T17:18:19Z JokesOnYou77: Hi all. 2015-04-01T17:18:38Z srcerer joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:18:57Z jasom: shka: that's actually annoying that it doesn't support empty attributes 2015-04-01T17:19:03Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:19:12Z shka: jasom: it really is 2015-04-01T17:19:32Z jasom: well :required "true" should work with all browsers 2015-04-01T17:19:43Z shka: ok 2015-04-01T17:19:46Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:19:54Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:19:56Z shka: jasom: maybe i should patch cl-markup? 2015-04-01T17:20:03Z jasom: shka: always a possibility 2015-04-01T17:20:06Z shka: this seems like any missing feature 2015-04-01T17:20:17Z jasom: it should be trivial to add to attributes->string 2015-04-01T17:20:21Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-01T17:23:13Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:27:32Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T17:27:37Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:29:05Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-01T17:30:08Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:30:23Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:30:46Z eudoxia quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-01T17:32:13Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:33:18Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:36:05Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:36:07Z tharugrim quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-01T17:36:25Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:37:35Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:37:57Z Denommus quit (Quit: restarting Emacs) 2015-04-01T17:38:45Z flip214: jasom: thanks. what's the easiest way to integrate that with hunchentoot:create-folder-dispatcher-and-handler? 2015-04-01T17:38:46Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:39:03Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T17:39:05Z flip214: I can't, I guess, and have to repeat some of the logic in hunchentoot? 2015-04-01T17:39:17Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:41:29Z emaczen quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-01T17:43:06Z jasom: flip214: that's my understanding, but they may have changed it since I last looked at it 2015-04-01T17:43:20Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-01T17:43:24Z flip214: thanks for confirming my suspicions... 2015-04-01T17:44:15Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:47:02Z Petit_Dejeuner_ joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:47:15Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:47:22Z pyon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T17:48:11Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:48:49Z PuercoPop: shka: you could use other similar libraries like spinneret where (.. :required t) works? https://github.com/ruricolist/spinneret 2015-04-01T17:49:23Z sid_cypher quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T17:49:46Z shka: PuercoPop: perhaps 2015-04-01T17:50:08Z shka: but switching from something that i'm already using is any extra work 2015-04-01T17:51:10Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-01T17:51:50Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:56:59Z easye joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:57:14Z admg joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:57:31Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:58:20Z dfinninger joined #lisp 2015-04-01T17:58:26Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T17:59:44Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T17:59:48Z impulse joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:00:43Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:02:17Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T18:02:23Z minion joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:02:24Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:02:33Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:03:26Z wheelsucker quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T18:03:30Z ggole quit 2015-04-01T18:10:04Z jasom loves when docstrings do not match the code 2015-04-01T18:10:48Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:12:51Z pjb: I put specifications in docstrings, so if there's a discrepancy, the code needs a patch. 2015-04-01T18:13:31Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:15:52Z x1n4u joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:16:38Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:17:23Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:18:18Z f3lp joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:18:56Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:19:58Z antgreen joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:21:37Z Petit_Dejeuner_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-01T18:21:37Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-01T18:21:45Z ndrei quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-01T18:22:14Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:22:18Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:23:11Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:25:38Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T18:26:04Z f3lp quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-01T18:28:52Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-01T18:29:02Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T18:30:26Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-01T18:30:48Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:31:09Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T18:32:49Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-01T18:35:59Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T18:37:14Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:41:55Z dfinninger quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-01T18:41:58Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-01T18:46:29Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:46:29Z s1n4 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-01T18:46:56Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:48:30Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:49:42Z dfinninger joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:49:46Z Adlai joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:50:55Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:51:28Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-01T18:51:56Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-01T18:54:41Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-01T18:56:49Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-01T18:56:55Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-01T18:58:11Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-01T19:00:37Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2015-04-01T19:01:15Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-01T19:05:56Z GETOUT joined #lisp 2015-04-01T19:13:42Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T19:15:08Z HotTopic joined #lisp 2015-04-01T19:16:54Z pyon is now known as dual-pyon 2015-04-01T19:24:32Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-01T19:28:07Z bjorkintosh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-01T19:28:50Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-01T19:31:27Z prxq joined #lisp 2015-04-01T19:34:54Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2015-04-01T19:35:54Z _leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-04-01T19:36:12Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-01T19:37:59Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-01T19:39:15Z prxq: hi folks. Anyone knows out of the top of his/her head where lisppaste sores its pastes? I mean which dir on the cl.net machine... 2015-04-01T19:40:27Z thodg joined #lisp 2015-04-01T19:41:34Z HotTopic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T19:42:36Z prxq: found it 2015-04-01T19:47:47Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T19:47:48Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-04-01T19:48:12Z minion quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-01T19:48:36Z specbot quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-01T19:50:45Z specbot joined #lisp 2015-04-01T19:51:31Z minion joined #lisp 2015-04-01T19:52:16Z GETOUT quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-01T19:54:37Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-04-01T19:54:41Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T20:12:04Z badkins quit 2015-04-01T20:13:04Z mrSpec quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-04-01T20:13:55Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T20:17:08Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-01T20:17:16Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T20:18:59Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-01T20:19:20Z dstatyvka joined #lisp 2015-04-01T20:19:53Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-01T20:22:21Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-01T20:22:48Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-01T20:23:13Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-01T20:24:17Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-01T20:25:25Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-04-01T20:29:04Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-01T20:30:09Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-01T20:30:58Z FrogLeg joined #lisp 2015-04-01T20:31:34Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-01T20:31:58Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2015-04-01T20:34:47Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-01T20:36:05Z tharugrim quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-01T20:41:01Z FrogLeg quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-01T20:41:25Z FrogLeg joined #lisp 2015-04-01T20:43:01Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-01T20:46:49Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-01T20:47:51Z futpib quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-01T20:48:42Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-01T20:49:04Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T20:51:27Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-01T20:51:31Z Jaskologist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-01T20:51:36Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-04-01T20:51:53Z jumblerg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-04-01T20:54:22Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-01T20:56:22Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T20:56:32Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-01T20:57:16Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-01T20:57:51Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T21:00:28Z _leb joined #lisp 2015-04-01T21:00:30Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-01T21:00:40Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-01T21:03:29Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-01T21:03:38Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-01T21:05:38Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-04-01T21:06:04Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T21:08:58Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T21:11:00Z FrogLeg changed the topic of #lisp to: This Topic is now Hot. B===D~ B===D~ B===D~ B===D~ B===D~ 2015-04-01T21:11:14Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-01T21:11:38Z Shinmera: How very creative. 2015-04-01T21:12:25Z pjb changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs:|contact op if muted|Drakma 1.3.14, Hunchentoot 1.2.31, SBCL 1.2.9 2015-04-01T21:12:30Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-04-01T21:12:48Z wicope quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T21:12:53Z foom quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-01T21:13:02Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-01T21:13:03Z pjb changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs:|contact op if muted|Drakma 1.3.14, Hunchentoot 1.2.31, SBCL 1.2.9 2015-04-01T21:13:12Z Bicyclidine: thanks. i'm always nervous about c/ping into my term 2015-04-01T21:13:23Z boogie quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-04-01T21:13:32Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 2015-04-01T21:13:36Z Xach has set mode +t 2015-04-01T21:13:39Z Xach has set mode +b *!*froggey@unaffiliated/froggey 2015-04-01T21:13:47Z Xach: dang it. 2015-04-01T21:13:49Z Shinmera: That's probably not right 2015-04-01T21:14:09Z Xach has set mode -bb *!*froggey@unaffiliated/froggey *!*bjkvgr@197.193.17.* 2015-04-01T21:14:12Z Xach has set mode +b *!*Frog@*.midsouth.biz.rr.com 2015-04-01T21:14:18Z FrogLeg [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (FrogLeg) 2015-04-01T21:14:19Z Bicyclidine: poor froggey, another victim for the tab completion cenotaph 2015-04-01T21:14:41Z Xach changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs:|contact op if muted| cl-launch 4.1.2, Drakma 1.3.14, Hunchentoot 1.2.31, SBCL 1.2.9 2015-04-01T21:14:51Z ajtulloc_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T21:14:55Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T21:14:56Z Fade: isn't sbcl 1.2.10 current? 2015-04-01T21:15:17Z pjb: it changes too fast for me. 2015-04-01T21:15:19Z Bicyclidine: probably could keep the common-lisp.net link, too. since it's all fancy now 2015-04-01T21:15:26Z Xach changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs:|contact op if muted| cl-launch 4.1.2, Drakma 1.3.14, Hunchentoot 1.2.31, SBCL 1.2.10 2015-04-01T21:15:29Z Bicyclidine: yeah, .10 is from mar 28 it seems. 2015-04-01T21:16:10Z admg quit (Quit: Bye) 2015-04-01T21:16:43Z Bicyclidine: sbcl has monthly releases, doesn't it? maybe it would make more sense just to have 1.2. course i don't know that anybody needs that part of the topic anyway... 2015-04-01T21:18:41Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-01T21:19:01Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-01T21:21:34Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-01T21:22:19Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-04-01T21:22:20Z oleo is now known as Guest2818 2015-04-01T21:22:24Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-04-01T21:22:55Z oleo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T21:24:29Z Guest2818 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-01T21:24:44Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-04-01T21:24:58Z oleo_ is now known as oleo 2015-04-01T21:26:15Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T21:26:19Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-01T21:30:48Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T21:31:31Z {[]}grant quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T21:31:42Z jasom: I think that part of the topic is to stay off "SBCL 0.9.8 is doing this odd thing..." type questions 2015-04-01T21:32:11Z jasom: for a while several linux distros had really ancient sbcl versions 2015-04-01T21:32:45Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-01T21:32:48Z Slothel: On Arch I've been having trouble with SBCL, I don't know a lot about it since I'm just beginning, but it's like it installs an executable of SBCL but there's no directory with config settings... 2015-04-01T21:32:54Z Slothel: Like it doesn't know where to look for required modules 2015-04-01T21:32:56Z Slothel: It's really weird 2015-04-01T21:33:01Z prxq joined #lisp 2015-04-01T21:33:58Z Bicyclidine: i have an arch machine with sbcl on it, haven't had any problems like that. what do you mean, exactly? like (require :asdf) fails? 2015-04-01T21:33:58Z jasom: Slothel: don't use require, except for builtin sbcl stuff 2015-04-01T21:34:17Z jasom: Bicyclidine: I think yesterday Slothel said (require 'asdf-install) didn't work, which is unsurprising 2015-04-01T21:34:27Z Slothel: jason: Yep, asdf-install was the problem 2015-04-01T21:34:34Z Bicyclidine: oh was that the same person? asdf-install is hella obsolete, yeah 2015-04-01T21:34:38Z jasom: Slothel: asdf-install isn't part of sbcl 2015-04-01T21:34:54Z Bicyclidine: use this: Quicklisp beta 2015-04-01T21:34:56Z Bicyclidine: er 2015-04-01T21:34:57Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell Slothel about quicklisp 2015-04-01T21:34:57Z Colleen: Slothel: An easy to use and the de facto standard library manager for Common Lisp. Installation instructions can be found on http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ 2015-04-01T21:35:00Z Slothel: But when following the wiki on how to install SBCL, it seems as if there is supposed to be a directory with (config?) settings and other files tahn just sbcl 2015-04-01T21:35:06Z Bicyclidine: god damn i hate pasting into terms. thanks, robot. 2015-04-01T21:35:06Z jasom: Slothel: If you're just getting started, I recommend using quicklisp for installing things 2015-04-01T21:35:11Z jasom: Slothel: which wiki? 2015-04-01T21:35:14Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T21:35:15Z Bicyclidine: Slothel: there are some directories with built in modules, yeah. 2015-04-01T21:35:24Z Bicyclidine: asdf-install isn't one. 2015-04-01T21:35:36Z jasom: Slothel: try (require 'sb-sprof) 2015-04-01T21:35:36Z Slothel: Scratch that, not a wiki, an article, I'll link it one sec 2015-04-01T21:35:57Z Bicyclidine: Slothel: built in modules are installed to /usr/lib/sbcl/contrib on arch 2015-04-01T21:35:57Z Slothel: http://newartisans.com/2007/11/running-common-lisp-behind-apache/ 2015-04-01T21:36:29Z Bicyclidine: this is from 2007. 2015-04-01T21:36:48Z Slothel: Right, but I assumed installing SBCL would still create a directory 2015-04-01T21:36:52Z Slothel: all I have is a single file 2015-04-01T21:36:52Z linux_dream quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T21:37:26Z jasom: Slothel: you should have /usr/lib/sbcl/contrib/ if you installed via pacman 2015-04-01T21:37:37Z Bicyclidine: That's because this person installed sbcl in a different, non-arch way. 2015-04-01T21:37:43Z Slothel: jason: I don't 2015-04-01T21:38:11Z Slothel: So then you'd recommend just doing it via pacman? 2015-04-01T21:38:16Z jasom: yes 2015-04-01T21:38:19Z Slothel: Will that conflict with anything if I already have the sbcl file 2015-04-01T21:38:44Z Bicyclidine: probably. just delete whatever you did before. you should install things through your distro if you're just starting out. 2015-04-01T21:38:51Z jasom: it depends on what you mean by "already have the sbcl file" 2015-04-01T21:39:13Z Slothel: jason: I know it's confusing and it's compounded by the fact that I'm new and hazy on the details, but I literally *just* have an sbcl executable 2015-04-01T21:39:19Z Bicyclidine: if you have something in /usr/local/bin the shell will probably use that instead of what pacman installs. 2015-04-01T21:39:27Z jasom: Slothel: where is it? 2015-04-01T21:39:36Z Slothel: in /bin 2015-04-01T21:39:43Z jasom: Slothel: then delete that 2015-04-01T21:39:51Z Slothel: kk 2015-04-01T21:40:00Z jasom: install via pacman; the only reason not to is if you need a recent bugfix 2015-04-01T21:40:20Z jasom: pacman is usually about 2-3 months behind the official releases, so not too bad 2015-04-01T21:40:43Z Bicyclidine: i don't think arch is even supposed to use /bin nowadays? there was that update a couple months back 2015-04-01T21:40:51Z khisanth_ joined #lisp 2015-04-01T21:40:52Z Bicyclidine: by which i mean 2013, time sure does fly 2015-04-01T21:41:02Z jasom doesn't use arch too much 2015-04-01T21:41:12Z jasom: I have a single machine running it 2015-04-01T21:41:15Z Slothel: I'm coming from Ubuntu and just decided one day "F it, I'm going to dive in headfirst and learn all these things I've been putting off learning" 2015-04-01T21:41:19Z Slothel: So I got Arch and Lisp 2015-04-01T21:41:22Z Slothel: probably a mistake 2015-04-01T21:41:26Z jasom: haha 2015-04-01T21:41:31Z Bicyclidine: well, i like arch, but it ain't easy 2015-04-01T21:41:35Z jasom: well it's diving in headfirst certainly 2015-04-01T21:41:47Z Bicyclidine: better than my first attempt at learning linux, which was slackware 2015-04-01T21:41:52Z Slothel: Ouch. Haha. 2015-04-01T21:42:09Z Bicyclidine: in any case, yeah, unless you know what you're doing use the distro's installer for everything possible, and that's pacman 2015-04-01T21:42:24Z Bicyclidine: usually the arch wiki will have instructions on pkgbuilds for other crud, or it'll be in the aur, or suchlike 2015-04-01T21:42:27Z jasom: I've been on gentoo for almost 15 years now... my how time flies 2015-04-01T21:42:41Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T21:42:43Z Bicyclidine: moving binaries around root directories is not a great thing to do regularly. 2015-04-01T21:42:52Z cpc26_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T21:43:12Z Bicyclidine: So, anyway, install sbcl through pacman, then go to the quicklisp beta and follow the instructions there, and then you can open up sbcl and do (ql:quickload :hunchentoot) and suchlike. 2015-04-01T21:43:23Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-01T21:43:51Z Bicyclidine: here's another arch tip thing, you can open up a file list to see what will be installed: https://www.archlinux.org/packages/extra/x86_64/sbcl/files/ 2015-04-01T21:44:46Z Bicyclidine: Oh and one you have whatever installed you can do (lisp-implementation-version) to make sure you opened the right binary. 2015-04-01T21:45:15Z vr-rm joined #lisp 2015-04-01T21:45:29Z Slothel: Oh, okay. Cool. I just wish I had a better understanding of the kernel itself like, I understand things like enabling a service with systemctl but I don't really know how systemd works and to be honest I dont even really know what SBCL is other than "an implementation of Common Lisp" that I can input code into 2015-04-01T21:45:54Z Bicyclidine: i'm sure you'll figure it out. eventually. nothing like practice. 2015-04-01T21:46:18Z Bicyclidine: "an implementation of Common Lisp" is honestly a lot more than some people who come around this channel understand to begin with anyway. 2015-04-01T21:46:37Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-01T21:46:43Z Shinmera: Arch is worth it for the AUR imo. CL is worth it for a lot of reasons. I don't think you made a mistake at all. 2015-04-01T21:47:03Z Slothel: Heh, yeah, I just wish there was a shortcut to learning. 2015-04-01T21:47:26Z Shinmera: The point of learning is that there is no shortcut. It would be "knowing" if there was. 2015-04-01T21:48:15Z Excedrin: Arch has good wikis 2015-04-01T21:50:42Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-01T21:51:02Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-04-01T21:51:54Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T21:52:00Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-01T21:52:57Z jasom: Slothel: systemd is not very easy to understand; if you want to understand boot-ups, you can look at a more old-school sysvinit based system 2015-04-01T21:53:56Z jasom: Slothel: and as a fair warning: bringing up the differencess will tend to start a flamewar, as there is much heated debate on how much of systemd's additional complexity is necessary. 2015-04-01T21:55:06Z Slothel: jasom: I'd never intend to start a flamewar I just want to learn. Eventually I may have to try Gentoo or LFS or something so I can actually see how all the components interact 2015-04-01T21:55:18Z Slothel: At this point I've got a vague, general idea. 2015-04-01T21:55:56Z jasom: Slothel: no, no flamewar here, just letting you know it can be a touchy subject with some. 2015-04-01T21:55:58Z C6248 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T21:56:05Z Excedrin: systemd just starts things according to some milestones, kinda simple dependencies, when stuff doesn't have a dependency it can start things in parallel; there's a lot of extra stuff that doesn't seem particularly important (it's kinda like daemontools, runit, upstart) 2015-04-01T21:56:38Z jasom: Excedrin: but how it does manages them is a bits more complicated as cgroups gets involved 2015-04-01T21:56:59Z C6248 left #lisp 2015-04-01T21:56:59Z Excedrin: ah, that's something I haven't paid attention to at all 2015-04-01T21:57:04Z jasom: daemontools is so incredibly simple 2015-04-01T21:57:15Z Excedrin: yes, I love runit / daemontools 2015-04-01T21:57:19Z Excedrin: runit is a clone 2015-04-01T21:57:25Z Excedrin: wish it was more popular 2015-04-01T21:57:43Z sunwukong quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T21:57:58Z Slothel: And this is probably something that is different for every package that you download (I don't know if you can learn something general) but I'd like to get proficient enough to actually understand the error messages that pop up in my shell and log files 2015-04-01T21:58:00Z jasom: Excedrin: getting off topic for #lisp at this point, but I should sometime show you my OpenRC replacement that uses daemontools 2015-04-01T21:58:15Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-04-01T21:58:48Z jasom: Slothel: just learning more about linux in general will help with that; thereis a lot of vocabulary to pick up that will give you more context once you know it 2015-04-01T21:58:55Z Excedrin: Slothel: I find it's often useful to google for the exact error message, tends to have some discussion that might point me in the right direction 2015-04-01T21:59:03Z C6248 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T21:59:25Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T22:01:02Z _leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-04-01T22:02:37Z C6248 is now known as pnpuff 2015-04-01T22:02:49Z pnpuff quit (Changing host) 2015-04-01T22:02:49Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2015-04-01T22:02:49Z pnpuff quit (Changing host) 2015-04-01T22:02:49Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2015-04-01T22:03:25Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-04-01T22:03:37Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T22:03:38Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T22:04:42Z specbot joined #lisp 2015-04-01T22:04:43Z minion joined #lisp 2015-04-01T22:06:40Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-01T22:08:23Z _leb joined #lisp 2015-04-01T22:09:25Z Jaskologist joined #lisp 2015-04-01T22:10:22Z duggiefresh quit 2015-04-01T22:13:19Z innertracks1 joined #lisp 2015-04-01T22:15:13Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T22:19:38Z prxq quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2015-04-01T22:19:44Z dfinninger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T22:19:58Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T22:21:38Z _leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-04-01T22:22:07Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-01T22:23:32Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-01T22:24:34Z pnpuff quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-01T22:40:58Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-04-01T22:43:10Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-01T22:45:11Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-04-01T22:46:46Z dstatyvka left #lisp 2015-04-01T22:48:25Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-01T22:50:52Z JJaskologist joined #lisp 2015-04-01T22:51:44Z electrojustin joined #lisp 2015-04-01T22:54:16Z Jaskologist quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-01T22:54:46Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T22:54:48Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-01T22:55:21Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-01T22:59:56Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-04-01T23:00:06Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-01T23:01:16Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-01T23:01:59Z dfinninger joined #lisp 2015-04-01T23:02:47Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-04-01T23:10:10Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-01T23:10:45Z keen_ joined #lisp 2015-04-01T23:12:58Z _1_ joined #lisp 2015-04-01T23:16:25Z lagomorph quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-01T23:16:35Z Ethan- quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-01T23:20:17Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2015-04-01T23:20:45Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-01T23:21:54Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-01T23:22:37Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-01T23:25:22Z bcoburn quit 2015-04-01T23:28:14Z electrojustin: how fast is last? 2015-04-01T23:28:45Z DeadTrickster: as fast as it can ) 2015-04-01T23:29:55Z electrojustin: ? 2015-04-01T23:31:26Z Xach: electrojustin: it has to traverse a singly-linked list 2015-04-01T23:31:30Z electrojustin: im doing one of the project euler problems that requires finding a lot of primes fast, I can't decide if my problem is algorithm or implementation. I think it might be that last is O(n) 2015-04-01T23:31:44Z Xach: electrojustin: the longer the list, the slower it gets. 2015-04-01T23:31:44Z electrojustin: ok that's what I thought 2015-04-01T23:31:45Z pjb: Θ(n) 2015-04-01T23:33:02Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-01T23:33:03Z electrojustin: also I assume passing a list to a function requires copying the entire list? 2015-04-01T23:33:10Z pjb: wrong. 2015-04-01T23:33:44Z electrojustin: oh? the function is nondestructive, so will it actually realize it can pass by reference? 2015-04-01T23:34:03Z electrojustin: "it" being clisp or sbcl 2015-04-01T23:34:20Z pjb: (let ((l (list 1 2 3))) (eq ((lambda (x) x) l) l)) 2015-04-01T23:34:22Z Bicyclidine: sbcl stack allocates things, sure. 2015-04-01T23:34:22Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-04-01T23:34:57Z Bicyclidine: er. pjb's example is better. lisp doesn't copy anything if you don't tell it to. 2015-04-01T23:35:11Z Bicyclidine: so it doesn't have to realize anything. 2015-04-01T23:35:37Z clop joined #lisp 2015-04-01T23:36:32Z electrojustin: so it's pass by reference by default? Or I guess that's not *technically* pass by reference, but it's what most people call it. 2015-04-01T23:36:48Z pjb: No it's pass by value. Always, and uniquely. 2015-04-01T23:37:11Z pjb: It's just that in lisp, most values are references. 2015-04-01T23:37:33Z Bicyclidine: using C++ terms doesn't seem to do much but confuse everybody. 2015-04-01T23:37:59Z electrojustin: C++ is what I'm most familiar with... 2015-04-01T23:38:10Z electrojustin: well C 2015-04-01T23:38:21Z H4ns: electrojustin: common lisp cannot be described well in c or c++ terms 2015-04-01T23:38:24Z pjb: C also only has pass by value. 2015-04-01T23:38:27Z pjb: Lisp is like C. 2015-04-01T23:38:35Z pjb: Try to pass a C list to a C function! 2015-04-01T23:38:37Z electrojustin: oh I see 2015-04-01T23:39:15Z electrojustin: so it's pass by value, but the list is...the equivalent of a pointer? 2015-04-01T23:39:26Z electrojustin: the pointer is a value, so it's pass by value, but it might as well not be? 2015-04-01T23:39:28Z Bicyclidine: it's really better not to look for equivalents in this particular thing. 2015-04-01T23:39:30Z Bicyclidine: but yeah, sure. 2015-04-01T23:39:38Z cluck` joined #lisp 2015-04-01T23:41:19Z cluck quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-01T23:41:21Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-01T23:41:44Z electrojustin: aight, i'll replace all my calls to last with a local variable storing the most recently calculated prime. that might get me there... 2015-04-01T23:41:45Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-01T23:42:12Z pjb: use vectors. 2015-04-01T23:42:39Z electrojustin: hmm...that would probably be better suited for what I'm doing but I think I still need the local 2015-04-01T23:43:02Z electrojustin: append is O(n) too, huh 2015-04-01T23:43:31Z Bicyclidine: are you making a list of primes? 2015-04-01T23:43:36Z electrojustin: yes 2015-04-01T23:43:38Z Bicyclidine: it's easier to put the newest one in front. linked list, you know? 2015-04-01T23:43:46Z electrojustin: no, it's not 2015-04-01T23:43:54Z electrojustin: because then I have to reverse the list 2015-04-01T23:43:59Z electrojustin: when I go to find the next prime 2015-04-01T23:44:27Z Bicyclidine: you don't have to divide by the smallest prime first. 2015-04-01T23:44:54Z Bicyclidine: doing so is usually more efficient, of course, but this probably isn't the best way to get a list of primes anyway. 2015-04-01T23:44:55Z electrojustin: you don't, but I have this neat heuristic that only works if i do the smallest prime first 2015-04-01T23:45:39Z Bicyclidine: well, just switch to vectors then. if you have a fixed number of primes to find that's certainly better, and if you don't it's just a bit more work. 2015-04-01T23:45:44Z pjb: the fastest way to get primes anyways, is to use a bit vectors with one bit per odd integer. 2015-04-01T23:46:22Z electrojustin: pjb: how do you mean? 2015-04-01T23:46:52Z pjb: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/common-lisp/arithmetic/primes.lisp 2015-04-01T23:47:18Z electrojustin: that...helps a lot actually. thanks! 2015-04-01T23:47:37Z Bicyclidine: look at all those setqs 2015-04-01T23:47:48Z pjb: it uses a while macro. replace it with (loop :while … :do …) 2015-04-01T23:47:54Z electrojustin: i got pretty close with my own methods, but I'm still at 1 hour runtime instead of 1 minute 2015-04-01T23:47:58Z pjb: Bicyclidine: look at the date! :-) 2015-04-01T23:48:31Z pjb: But otherwise, algorithms will be implemented with setq. Just check TAOCP. 2015-04-01T23:48:49Z Bicyclidine: yeah, it just looks like you translated fairly mechanically from pascal or mix or whatnot. 2015-04-01T23:48:55Z Bicyclidine: least it's not prog. 2015-04-01T23:50:04Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-01T23:59:02Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-02T00:01:19Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-04-02T00:02:23Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T00:02:45Z electrojustin: oh I didn't miss anything apparently 2015-04-02T00:03:14Z electrojustin: well one of my messages didn't get through, but it wasn't terribly important anyway 2015-04-02T00:03:41Z cluck` is now known as cluck 2015-04-02T00:06:19Z dual-pyon is now known as n-pyon-complete 2015-04-02T00:06:32Z drmeister: When I invoke a restart - what happens? Is a THROW invoked or RETURN-FROM or a GO? 2015-04-02T00:07:41Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-02T00:07:48Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-02T00:08:33Z PuercoPop quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-04-02T00:09:57Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-02T00:10:21Z Bicyclidine: drmeister: impl-dependent obviously, i think sbcl just calls a dynamically bound function 2015-04-02T00:10:30Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-02T00:11:16Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-02T00:11:19Z drmeister: It has to unwind the stack - and those are the only three ways to do that. It looks like in Clasp and ECL it uses TAGBODY/GO 2015-04-02T00:11:39Z jumblerg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-02T00:11:44Z Bicyclidine: i do not think it has to unwind the stack 2015-04-02T00:11:55Z jasom: drmeister: It doesn't unwind the stack 2015-04-02T00:11:59Z _1_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-02T00:11:59Z jasom: the restart function does that 2015-04-02T00:12:16Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-02T00:13:18Z jasom: in fact, it can't unwind the stack, since hte restart function needs to be called in the dynamic encironment of the invoke restart 2015-04-02T00:13:40Z jasom: clhs restart-bind 2015-04-02T00:13:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_rst_bi.htm 2015-04-02T00:14:05Z drmeister: If I hit an ERROR and enter the debugger and then invoke a restart to return to the top level repl - doesn't that unwind the stack to the top level repl? 2015-04-02T00:14:25Z jasom: right, but that's not done by invoke-restart; that's done by the function that invoke-restart calls 2015-04-02T00:14:45Z jasom: the spec allows any non-local transfer of control or normal return 2015-04-02T00:15:49Z drmeister: I wasn't specific when I said "invoke a restart" but that is what I was asking about - what special operator is typically used to unwind the stack in the course of invoking a restart from the debugger. 2015-04-02T00:16:08Z Bicyclidine: block and return-from are the ones easier for me to understand. 2015-04-02T00:16:19Z drmeister: For some reason my Cleavir/Clasp compiled code doesn't unwind the stack - something is wrong with my exception handling code. 2015-04-02T00:16:35Z jasom: drmeister: probably go since that doesn't rely on the dynamic environment 2015-04-02T00:16:53Z drmeister: Yeah - it looks like it's GO 2015-04-02T00:17:14Z jasom: return-from would work too for the same reason 2015-04-02T00:17:32Z jasom: throw/catch would be problematic since they rely on the dynamic environemtn 2015-04-02T00:21:14Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-02T00:21:45Z Bicyclidine: so you have something like (block abort (restart-bind ((abort (lambda (&rest ignore) (declare (ignore ignore)) (return-from abort)))) ...stuff...)) 2015-04-02T00:21:48Z Bicyclidine: maybe. 2015-04-02T00:22:27Z Bicyclidine: then invoke-restart just normally calls that lambda, and that lambda does a nonlocal control transfer which is okay because blocks have dynamic extent. 2015-04-02T00:23:53Z gklimowicz joined #lisp 2015-04-02T00:24:22Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-02T00:24:23Z electrojustin: oh I could probably just use hash tables if I wanted to implement the sieve... 2015-04-02T00:24:36Z pjb: Good luck. 2015-04-02T00:25:34Z pjb: You could also build stars of mass 1, 2, 3, 4, … and make go nova stars whose mass resonate with others smaller. 2015-04-02T00:29:06Z Adlai: wouldn't you want to skip the first? 2015-04-02T00:29:27Z Bicyclidine: blowing up stars is so fun, though. 2015-04-02T00:29:44Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-02T00:29:54Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2015-04-02T00:30:09Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-02T00:30:27Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T00:32:38Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-02T00:34:42Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-02T00:35:02Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-04-02T00:35:38Z Xach has set mode -o Xach 2015-04-02T00:36:06Z pjb: Adlai: right. Thanks for the bug report. And now, let's do Universe 2.0. 2015-04-02T00:40:55Z linux_dream quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-02T00:41:56Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-02T00:42:11Z _leb joined #lisp 2015-04-02T00:42:42Z a2015_ joined #lisp 2015-04-02T00:45:13Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-04-02T00:46:49Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-02T00:46:52Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-04-02T00:47:12Z harish_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-02T00:51:29Z _leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-04-02T00:55:54Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-04-02T00:56:44Z freehck: hello people 2015-04-02T00:57:00Z _leb joined #lisp 2015-04-02T00:57:19Z freehck: louds of time have passed since i was here last time ) 2015-04-02T00:57:56Z freehck: but now i'm writing code with sbcl again 2015-04-02T00:58:03Z freehck: and I'm happy again, pals ) 2015-04-02T01:00:07Z DeadTrickster: good for you 2015-04-02T01:00:25Z DeadTrickster: what its feels like? masturbation? 2015-04-02T01:00:35Z DeadTrickster: masturbation when you are married 2015-04-02T01:01:33Z DeadTrickster: freehck, you doing this for money or it is a personal project? 2015-04-02T01:01:43Z Xach: DeadTrickster: that is not an appropriate response. 2015-04-02T01:01:55Z freehck: well, it's not so familiar like racket, but quite interesting because of clos and macro system. 2015-04-02T01:02:03Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-04-02T01:02:10Z freehck: DeadTrickster: i do it for a degree 2015-04-02T01:02:19Z DeadTrickster: Xach, I'm sorry 2015-04-02T01:02:48Z freehck: *it's not as familiar as racket 2015-04-02T01:03:40Z ajtulloc_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T01:04:59Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-02T01:05:04Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-04-02T01:10:39Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-02T01:10:53Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-02T01:11:14Z dfinninger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T01:14:02Z average: freehck: why is lisp making you happy 2015-04-02T01:14:11Z average: i don't see why it's any different than other languages 2015-04-02T01:14:24Z average: just the parenthesis and stuff a bit different but.. all in all.. same thing 2015-04-02T01:14:50Z freehck: average: seriously? 2015-04-02T01:14:53Z average: the argument that LISP is a functional language holds no more than Perl being a functional language 2015-04-02T01:14:58Z average: or Python 2015-04-02T01:15:03Z freehck: wow... 2015-04-02T01:15:08Z Zhivago: average: CL is a procedural language. 2015-04-02T01:15:10Z zacts` joined #lisp 2015-04-02T01:15:20Z freehck: first of all LISPs are mainly NOT functional languages. 2015-04-02T01:15:48Z Zhivago: average: However, lisps have very little fundamental magic in them, which is nice. 2015-04-02T01:16:22Z average: the general uninformed programmer thinks that map/grep/lambdas immediately give the statute of "functional language" 2015-04-02T01:16:42Z Zhivago: average: I don't know why you're babbling about what the general uninformed programmer thinks. 2015-04-02T01:16:43Z Bicyclidine: grep, huh. 2015-04-02T01:16:58Z average: and since I don't know haskell in order to argue otherwise.. I will take the uninformed programmer side (although i disagree with their opinion) 2015-04-02T01:17:01Z freehck: well, I think the most adorable thing in lisp for me are macroses, lambdas, internal definitions and TCO. 2015-04-02T01:17:07Z DeadTrickster: what is grep 2015-04-02T01:17:20Z freehck: however, the last one is not a characteristic of all lisps... 2015-04-02T01:17:22Z Bicyclidine: Grep is a program for searching for text that matches regular expressions. 2015-04-02T01:17:34Z DeadTrickster: how it is related to lisp? 2015-04-02T01:17:34Z Zhivago: Well, most lisps don't have TCO, and personally I'd argue that TCO should be explicit, which it isn't in scheme. 2015-04-02T01:17:57Z Bicyclidine: DeadTrickster: itisamystery.gif 2015-04-02T01:18:17Z DeadTrickster: after all runtime is the only thing that matters 2015-04-02T01:18:26Z DeadTrickster: runtime and libraries 2015-04-02T01:18:36Z average: I like LISP, but the lack of libraries to fulfil the common use-cases .. scares me a bit 2015-04-02T01:18:42Z average: I'm not sure how other people deal with this 2015-04-02T01:18:44Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-02T01:18:55Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-02T01:19:05Z Zhivago: average: Generally with a combination of research and writing code. 2015-04-02T01:19:14Z Zhivago: average: If you don't want to use lisp, then by all means don't. 2015-04-02T01:19:25Z freehck: average: if you want to have libraries, try better scheme. 2015-04-02T01:19:31Z average: I would use LISP in a large project but since there aren't that many libraries to fill in the gaps properly, I would probably use Python instead 2015-04-02T01:19:41Z freehck: average: for example Racket Scheme has a lot. 2015-04-02T01:19:56Z H4ns: average: it is spelled "Lisp" nowadays, if you must use any capitalization 2015-04-02T01:19:57Z Zhivago: average: Glad to hear it. You can stop talking here now. 2015-04-02T01:20:09Z DeadTrickster: =) 2015-04-02T01:20:27Z freehck: Zhivago: why would you argue that TCO must be explicit? 2015-04-02T01:20:41Z freehck: I don't see disadvantages of TCO. 2015-04-02T01:20:44Z average: what's TCO ? 2015-04-02T01:20:48Z Zhivago: freehck: I did not say must. I said should. 2015-04-02T01:20:50Z Bicyclidine: all the edge cases for TCO are kind of hard to see sometimes. like, dynamic binding for instance. 2015-04-02T01:20:57Z DeadTrickster: tail calls optimizations i believe 2015-04-02T01:20:58Z freehck: average: tail call optimization 2015-04-02T01:21:16Z average: I always hear debates about tail call optimization. is it really that big of a deal ? 2015-04-02T01:21:19Z Zhivago: freehck: If TCO is implicit, then nothing protects it from disappearing under some transformation or modification of code in some distant place. 2015-04-02T01:21:41Z Zhivago: freehck: If TCO is explicit, then the compiler can inform you that your code does not satisfy the requirements for TCO. 2015-04-02T01:21:47Z DeadTrickster: Zhivago, I see your point 2015-04-02T01:21:50Z average: I think I've read tons of blogs talking about TCO. But afaik, that's only one of the hundreds/thousands of automatic compiler optimizations.. 2015-04-02T01:22:10Z pjb: and notably in CL, depending on the implementaiton of dynamic bindings, there may very few terminal call places. 2015-04-02T01:22:14Z freehck: Zhivago: i got you 2015-04-02T01:22:30Z DeadTrickster: average, it is very important for functional languages 2015-04-02T01:22:35Z Zhivago: average: We're not talking about where it is a random optimization. 2015-04-02T01:22:47Z freehck: of course there're some debug problems because TCO does not let me to see a normal error trace. 2015-04-02T01:22:56Z H4ns: average: tco is what makes recursion equivalent to iterative looping. with tco, you can replace all your loops by recursion 2015-04-02T01:23:08Z average: ah ok 2015-04-02T01:23:11Z Zhivago: TCO doesn't prevent you from seeing a normal error trace, but it does make it somewhat trickier to implement. 2015-04-02T01:23:14Z H4ns: average: which is important when you're interested in immutability of variables. 2015-04-02T01:23:33Z freehck: but it helps to use recursion, and a lot of procedures become easier this way. 2015-04-02T01:23:58Z H4ns: freehck: that's debatable. and in any case, common lisp is not a tail recursive language. 2015-04-02T01:24:02Z freehck: but it concerns mainly mathematical programming of course. 2015-04-02T01:24:27Z freehck: H4ns: this is the reason I use SBCL. 2015-04-02T01:24:35Z freehck: It's tail recursive. 2015-04-02T01:24:44Z DeadTrickster: when? 2015-04-02T01:25:43Z Zhivago: SBCL has an implicit TCO optimization that is sometimes applied, is probably what you mean. 2015-04-02T01:26:10Z freehck: sometimes? 2015-04-02T01:26:20Z freehck: only sometimes? 2015-04-02T01:26:20Z DeadTrickster: I mean how I can be 100% sure my tail calls are optimized? what the rules 2015-04-02T01:26:39Z Bicyclidine: freehck: sure only sometimes. sometimes tco is impossible and sometimes (optimize (debug 3)) 2015-04-02T01:26:46Z pjb: You cannot be 100% sure, since the CL standard doesn't mandate it. 2015-04-02T01:26:49Z Zhivago: deadtrickster: In general, you can't -- otherwise see the manual. 2015-04-02T01:27:26Z DeadTrickster: usually I use disassemble ) 2015-04-02T01:27:40Z freehck: pjb: so I cannot be sure that my recursive code will be compiled with TCO when I use SBCL? 2015-04-02T01:27:45Z zacts` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-02T01:27:46Z average: I consider Maxima to be the best program written in Lisp and still in use today 2015-04-02T01:28:00Z Bicyclidine: scheme's weird let syntax is enough for me to believe that a dedicating looping construct makes more sense than just having TCO. 2015-04-02T01:28:05Z pjb: freehck: I must confess, I've not read sbcl user manual. 2015-04-02T01:28:14Z average: I know of another but that's commercial. Google has some flight planning software written in Lisp 2015-04-02T01:28:30Z DeadTrickster: eta 2015-04-02T01:28:36Z pjb: actually, in SBCL and C++. 2015-04-02T01:28:44Z average: On a related note, I've read some articles about AI competitions won by Lisp programmers 2015-04-02T01:28:45Z drmeister: Bicyclidine, jasom: Thanks for your feedback earlier - I got pulled away. 2015-04-02T01:29:00Z Zhivago: bycyclidine: It's nice to be able to turn backtracking on and off without large structural changes. 2015-04-02T01:29:04Z average: I wonder where else is Lisp being in use nowadays 2015-04-02T01:29:15Z DeadTrickster: of course AI only ) 2015-04-02T01:29:16Z freehck: pjb: http://0branch.com/notes/tco-cl.html#sec-2-2 2015-04-02T01:29:28Z freehck: it's "properly tail recursive." 2015-04-02T01:29:29Z pjb: average: monitor: https://lispjobs.wordpress.com/ 2015-04-02T01:29:34Z Zhivago: Also, TCO isn't just for loops, and things like mutually tail recursive structures are very hard to express in terms of loops. 2015-04-02T01:30:16Z Bicyclidine: sure, i wouldn't say TCO is useless or anything, just that using it as your only thing for iteration seems to be not good. i mean hell, shivers has that huge loop macro of his. 2015-04-02T01:30:34Z average: pjb: looking at it yes 2015-04-02T01:30:35Z Zhivago: It's a reasonable primitive for iteration. 2015-04-02T01:30:44Z Zhivago: You can always put random macros on top. 2015-04-02T01:31:14Z Zhivago: What's nice about it is that it makes it clear that it isn't recursion vs' iteration, but about backtracking. 2015-04-02T01:31:18Z Bicyclidine: I guess. I always just think of it as set and goto, which amounts to boring. 2015-04-02T01:31:21Z average: may I ask about debugging Lisp code ? whenever I have a problem with my Emacs setup (I'm an intermmediate elisp programmer), it's horrible.. 2015-04-02T01:31:24Z average: the stacktrace, I can't read it 2015-04-02T01:31:25Z freehck: u know, i feel that I just like TCO. I feel it is the right thing, and dont want to write my code with smth that is not able to do it. 2015-04-02T01:31:39Z average: I've noticed that was the case with SBCL as well.. 2015-04-02T01:31:44Z H4ns: average: #lisp is your go-to channel 2015-04-02T01:32:02Z pjb: average: debugging in CL is in general much easier than with elisp. 2015-04-02T01:32:06Z average: is there a way for me to understand Lisp stacktraces better ? 2015-04-02T01:32:12Z pjb: average: use slime. the sldb debugger of slime is nice. 2015-04-02T01:32:15Z DeadTrickster: average, SBCL stack traces are actually rather good compared to say erlang 2015-04-02T01:32:20Z freehck: pjb: +100500 quite easier! ) 2015-04-02T01:33:09Z Tordek quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-02T01:33:19Z Tordek joined #lisp 2015-04-02T01:33:20Z pjb: somebody should write a swank backend for elisp… 2015-04-02T01:33:50Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-02T01:34:12Z DeadTrickster: and good rabbitmq client too 2015-04-02T01:34:37Z DeadTrickster: good = working 2015-04-02T01:35:09Z freehck: DeadTrickster: send sets of patches. :) 2015-04-02T01:35:12Z average: also, people here, Zhivago in particular, don't get upset at me for trashing Lisp, I do that with all languages :) 2015-04-02T01:35:39Z Zhivago: We just get bored with your ignorant ravings. 2015-04-02T01:35:46Z Bicyclidine: that's a weird thing to say. "ok, sure i called you a douchebag, but i call EVERYONE douchebags so it's cool" 2015-04-02T01:35:51Z DeadTrickster: freehck, where? 2015-04-02T01:35:57Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T01:36:07Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-04-02T01:36:13Z brucem: Zhivago, Bicyclidine: average has gotten banned from at least one other channel for similar behavior. 2015-04-02T01:36:25Z DeadTrickster: Bicyclidine, he trashing Lisp not us 2015-04-02T01:36:27Z freehck: DeadTrickster: to marmelade repository! =) 2015-04-02T01:36:34Z average: Zhivago , Bicyclidine you see ? I have a reputation for this 2015-04-02T01:36:34Z Bicyclidine: brucem: yeah kinda figured. 2015-04-02T01:36:39Z H4ns: he is trashing himself, really 2015-04-02T01:36:45Z average: so there's really no point in getting upset at me 2015-04-02T01:36:51Z DeadTrickster: freehck, I meant rabbitmq client in CL 2015-04-02T01:37:00Z Bicyclidine: DeadTrickster: the point of the analogy is that saying you're not specifically mean, just generally unpleasant, isn't very effective. 2015-04-02T01:38:16Z DeadTrickster: well maybe, i'm too simple for this stuff 2015-04-02T01:38:44Z freehck: is rabbitmq just another new ipc? 2015-04-02T01:39:03Z DeadTrickster: freehck, Messaging system 2015-04-02T01:39:14Z DeadTrickster: ipc can be rolled on tom of that 2015-04-02T01:39:17Z DeadTrickster: top 2015-04-02T01:39:26Z average: message queue even 2015-04-02T01:39:40Z average: freehck: there's a wide variety of message queues and message brokers 2015-04-02T01:39:46Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: food) 2015-04-02T01:40:00Z freehck: ah, i got... it's something like a bus. 2015-04-02T01:40:05Z DeadTrickster: and you can tune routing rules and such things 2015-04-02T01:40:59Z DeadTrickster: really useful stuff especially if you want durability 2015-04-02T01:41:20Z average: POSIX message queues are nice too 2015-04-02T01:41:29Z average: of course, they're not as fancy as rabbitmq 2015-04-02T01:41:41Z Zhivago: There's nothing wrong with informed criticism of lisp. 2015-04-02T01:41:53Z pjb: but it's rare. 2015-04-02T01:41:59Z Zhivago: It's the uninformed stuff that's annoying. 2015-04-02T01:42:32Z bdowning joined #lisp 2015-04-02T01:42:47Z DeadTrickster: let me ask you a question: why ruby has millions of libraries but CL don't? 2015-04-02T01:43:38Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: let me pull a captain obvious: it is because ruby is used by millions, and lisp by a few thousand 2015-04-02T01:43:48Z average: DeadTrickster: there is a saying that goes a bit like this "if you don't understand something, follow the money route" 2015-04-02T01:44:27Z average: DeadTrickster: so one way of thinking about this, or one theory would be that if there were more Lisp jobs, then there would be more libraries, but since there are more jobs with Ruby, then there are more libraries with it 2015-04-02T01:44:36Z average: but again, this is just a theory, not sure if it's true 2015-04-02T01:45:57Z DeadTrickster: so the actual question is how to attract hipsters 2015-04-02T01:46:11Z average: I think that's secondary as well 2015-04-02T01:46:17Z freehck: DeadTrickster: million of libraries is an advantage? these languages just have different auditory I think. 2015-04-02T01:46:29Z DeadTrickster: but why 2015-04-02T01:46:32Z alusion joined #lisp 2015-04-02T01:46:40Z average: the attraction of hipsters/posers happens when a language has acquired sort-of a status for being notorious in hipster-circles 2015-04-02T01:46:56Z average: and then wannabes are looking to get jobs with that hipster/poser technology 2015-04-02T01:46:57Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-02T01:47:12Z DeadTrickster: I recently started to do erlang and situation here looks exactly the same too me 2015-04-02T01:47:15Z average: and then companies are onto them and they start posting jobs with said hipsterish technology 2015-04-02T01:47:37Z DeadTrickster: wonderful piece of technology barely used by anyone 2015-04-02T01:47:46Z s1n4 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T01:48:09Z DeadTrickster: average, I love these job titles: Ruby Ninja 2015-04-02T01:48:12Z DeadTrickster: or Superhero 2015-04-02T01:48:16Z freehck: DeadTrickster: actually, it has I think. But it's is smeared on different CL dialects. 2015-04-02T01:48:24Z DeadTrickster: wtf, I'm not a superhero 2015-04-02T01:48:28Z average: DeadTrickster: so I actually do statistics on jobs, and have seen many jobs like that 2015-04-02T01:48:37Z average: "Ninja" "Hero" "Superhero" 2015-04-02T01:48:48Z average: "Blackbelt" 2015-04-02T01:48:58Z freehck: average: Angry Video-Game Nerd. 2015-04-02T01:49:20Z DeadTrickster: but what type of person would reply to this 2015-04-02T01:49:29Z DeadTrickster: who actually thinks he a superhero? 2015-04-02T01:49:35Z DeadTrickster: or ninja 2015-04-02T01:49:38Z freehck: average: I think you'll like the episode about Ninja Gaiden. 2015-04-02T01:49:56Z average: DeadTrickster: ironically, I might apply to them, but only because I need money 2015-04-02T01:50:08Z average: and companies want to hire people that work 2015-04-02T01:50:26Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-02T01:50:34Z average: the interview is about assessing if the candidate is fit for the role, and the main goal is to decrease costs or increase revenue 2015-04-02T01:50:40Z average: it is a transaction 2015-04-02T01:50:46Z Zhivago: average: If you're a factory worker, sure. 2015-04-02T01:50:53Z DeadTrickster: but why these titles? 2015-04-02T01:51:06Z DeadTrickster: why not just I dunno specialist 2015-04-02T01:51:09Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-04-02T01:51:23Z harish joined #lisp 2015-04-02T01:51:28Z DeadTrickster: or experienced 2015-04-02T01:51:29Z average: nor the technologies, nor the ninja/hipster/gaiden/nerd/geek/hero/superhero bear any importance 2015-04-02T01:52:02Z freehck: okay I must work. sorry pals, maybe I will continue this cute discussion later. 2015-04-02T01:52:18Z average: DeadTrickster: because companies want to have an edge 2015-04-02T01:52:41Z average: not only people compete for jobs, but apparently companies compete against eachother for more attractive positions/roles 2015-04-02T01:52:50Z average: this is reflected in job descriptions 2015-04-02T01:53:02Z DeadTrickster: that is understandable but don't you think with this titles they attract specific people 2015-04-02T01:53:59Z DeadTrickster: with some kind of mental illness ) 2015-04-02T01:54:14Z average: hmm, i think the phenomenon can be explained as a dead-but-still-moving bandwagon initiated by a small company that was very succesful in hiring 2015-04-02T01:54:18Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-02T01:54:32Z average: large companies always want to minimize risks, so they follow only proven succesful recipes 2015-04-02T01:55:12Z average: so although this ninja/superhero thing might've worked for a small startup and got them going, then it got very popular among recruiters, and now it's a huge bandwagon on which all of them have hopped on 2015-04-02T01:55:32Z DeadTrickster: indeed 2015-04-02T01:55:41Z pjb: Just try to go to an interview in ninja clothing and armed to the teeth. 2015-04-02T01:55:57Z DeadTrickster: you asked for superhero ninja you got it 2015-04-02T01:55:59Z DeadTrickster: lol 2015-04-02T01:57:00Z average: DeadTrickster: also, there's a book from John Resig that might be the true origin of this nuissance trend http://www.manning.com/resig/ 2015-04-02T01:57:02Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-02T01:57:38Z DeadTrickster: self descriptive title 2015-04-02T01:57:44Z DeadTrickster: very promising 2015-04-02T01:57:57Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-02T01:58:08Z DeadTrickster: Secrets of the Common Lisp Ninja 2015-04-02T01:58:59Z DeadTrickster: Common Lisp Ninja uses if-let instead of aif 2015-04-02T01:59:12Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-04-02T01:59:45Z ajtulloc_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T02:00:08Z DeadTrickster: sadly I really have to go. Bye guys 2015-04-02T02:00:30Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2015-04-02T02:00:45Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-02T02:00:59Z average: 04:50 < Zhivago> average: If you're a factory worker, sure. 2015-04-02T02:01:18Z kuanyui joined #lisp 2015-04-02T02:01:31Z average: When I'm working a dayjob, I ask myself this question often. If there is any difference between a programmer and a factory worker. 2015-04-02T02:01:51Z pjb: work is alienating by definition. 2015-04-02T02:01:58Z average: You may have the right answer, or I might have the right answer. 2015-04-02T02:02:18Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-04-02T02:02:25Z average: pjb: is it alienating by definition ? 2015-04-02T02:02:38Z pjb: it is. 2015-04-02T02:04:08Z kuanyui: (listp '(1 . 1)) ===> T (length '(1 . 1)) ===> The value 1 is not of type LIST # What is this?! 2015-04-02T02:04:33Z defaultxr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T02:05:11Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-02T02:05:27Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-04-02T02:07:40Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-04-02T02:10:10Z average: omg Zhivago , omg Zhivago , pjb is saying that work is alienating by definition. But this must mean that Lisp jobs are alienating by definition too. 2015-04-02T02:10:17Z average: How can this be Mr. Zhivago ? 2015-04-02T02:10:24Z average: omg.. shock and awe 2015-04-02T02:12:05Z dfinninger joined #lisp 2015-04-02T02:12:35Z steelbird joined #lisp 2015-04-02T02:14:10Z Bike: kuanyui: it's a list but not a proper list. 2015-04-02T02:14:25Z kuanyui: WAT 2015-04-02T02:14:35Z Bike: please use real words. 2015-04-02T02:14:43Z kuanyui: Sorry =w=" 2015-04-02T02:15:04Z Bike: conventionally a "proper list" is one that ends in NIL. yours doesn't. length is programmed to work on proper lists. 2015-04-02T02:15:52Z pjb: kuanyui: (deftype list () `(or null cons)) 2015-04-02T02:16:13Z Bike: you could basically write length on lists as (defun length (list) (if (null list) 0 (length (cdr list)))). 2015-04-02T02:16:30Z kuanyui: I'm curious that if any simple way to test a dotted pair? 2015-04-02T02:16:33Z Bike: er, (1+ (length (cdr list))) 2015-04-02T02:18:09Z Bike: kuanyui: you mean, given a list, see if it ends with nil or not? 2015-04-02T02:18:13Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-04-02T02:18:17Z pjb: You can use (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.list:list-lengths '(1 . 1)) and (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.list:proper-list-p '(1 . 1)) 2015-04-02T02:18:40Z kuanyui: Thanks~ 2015-04-02T02:18:52Z pjb: kuanyui: dotted pairs are any cons cell. (consp '(1 . 1)) 2015-04-02T02:18:56Z Bike: or alexandria:proper-list-p. 2015-04-02T02:19:19Z pjb: kuanyui: but (consp '(1 2 3)) -> T too , because (1 2 3) is actually (1 . (2 . (3 . ()))) 2015-04-02T02:22:16Z pjb: kuanyui: anyways, when library functions are proposed, it's probably even more instructive to check their source! 2015-04-02T02:25:56Z alusion quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-02T02:26:00Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-02T02:36:39Z Yulin joined #lisp 2015-04-02T02:37:12Z mearnsh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-02T02:38:46Z f3lp joined #lisp 2015-04-02T02:41:08Z mearnsh joined #lisp 2015-04-02T02:41:41Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-04-02T02:41:47Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-04-02T02:42:53Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T02:45:36Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-02T02:46:32Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-04-02T02:47:50Z Trioxin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-02T02:48:32Z Trioxin joined #lisp 2015-04-02T02:49:33Z jack-zhang joined #lisp 2015-04-02T02:50:03Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-02T02:50:39Z _leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-04-02T02:51:55Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-02T02:52:43Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-02T02:55:41Z jack-zhang quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T03:01:03Z grant- joined #lisp 2015-04-02T03:01:06Z f3lp quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-02T03:03:55Z c74d is now known as Guest28244 2015-04-02T03:04:03Z Yulin left #lisp 2015-04-02T03:04:55Z Guest28244 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-02T03:05:51Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-04-02T03:07:36Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-02T03:09:19Z KarlDscc joined #lisp 2015-04-02T03:11:33Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-02T03:13:10Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-02T03:14:39Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T03:20:27Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T03:20:34Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-02T03:21:01Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-02T03:22:49Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-02T03:23:04Z grant- quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-02T03:24:30Z gklimowicz quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-02T03:53:57Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-02T03:54:22Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T03:54:42Z ajtulloch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-02T03:55:18Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-02T03:55:55Z mj-0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-02T03:56:02Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T03:57:49Z gklimowicz joined #lisp 2015-04-02T03:58:56Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T03:59:44Z kvsari joined #lisp 2015-04-02T04:00:09Z jlongster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-02T04:00:23Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-02T04:02:33Z beach joined #lisp 2015-04-02T04:02:41Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-04-02T04:02:57Z pillton: Good morning beach. 2015-04-02T04:05:05Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-04-02T04:05:58Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-02T04:07:43Z beach: I got a very complete reply from LispWorks concerning what they do with COUNT :FROM-END T. Now I can finish the ELS paper, having satisfied all the referee requirements. 2015-04-02T04:07:59Z beach: Basically they also reverse the list first, like SBCL and CCL. 2015-04-02T04:08:01Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-02T04:08:36Z pillton: Is that the fastest way? 2015-04-02T04:09:01Z beach: I doubt it. The paper shows a better method. 2015-04-02T04:09:51Z beach: And their default stack is much smaller which explains why there was little improvement with our technique when the OPTIMIZE setting was low and the SAFETY setting was high. 2015-04-02T04:10:17Z pjb: I assume they reverse not in place (for threading reasons). Do you know if they reverse a list into a vector? In that case, it would be quite similar to using the stack as you do? 2015-04-02T04:10:21Z beach: Our technique seems to be consistently faster. 2015-04-02T04:10:51Z beach: I think they reverse into a list. 2015-04-02T04:11:23Z pjb: That doesn't sound good. 2015-04-02T04:11:56Z electrojustin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-02T04:12:33Z theseb left #lisp 2015-04-02T04:12:40Z electrojustin joined #lisp 2015-04-02T04:12:40Z pjb: An implementation can easily have a primitive in the memory mutator, to allocate a vector of unknown size (eg. increment the free-pointer), so it would be trivial to copy the list to that space, and then process it as a vector. 2015-04-02T04:12:50Z beach: They also said that on 32-bit LispWorks, our technique speeds it up by a factor 10. YAY! 2015-04-02T04:12:50Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2015-04-02T04:12:58Z pjb: :-) 2015-04-02T04:13:38Z pjb: An american university would have that patented and sold… 2015-04-02T04:13:43Z beach: pjb: As the paper shows, there is not much additional cost in first computing the length of the list. 2015-04-02T04:13:58Z beach: pjb: Ssshhh! 2015-04-02T04:14:24Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-02T04:15:35Z beach: Apparently, at LispWorks, they made some effort to implement our technique. That's always nice to know. 2015-04-02T04:16:09Z pjb: (It was more a comment on the inefficiency of capitalism.) 2015-04-02T04:16:46Z pjb: It's great that faster algorithms be integrated in implementations. 2015-04-02T04:16:47Z beach: Sure. Good thing France is less about money that many other places I have lived. 2015-04-02T04:16:47Z pillton: Perhaps a stupid question. What counting problem requires destructive key and test functions and :from-end t ? 2015-04-02T04:16:54Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-02T04:17:12Z pillton: ... key or test .. sorry. 2015-04-02T04:17:24Z beach: pillton: The paper does not address that issue. :) 2015-04-02T04:17:33Z pjb: It's great that faster algorithms be integrated in implementations. 2015-04-02T04:17:50Z beach: pillton: If that bothers you, forget about COUNT and think about REDUCE instead. 2015-04-02T04:18:22Z pillton: Ah of course. It was a stupid question. 2015-04-02T04:18:33Z beach: Not at all. 2015-04-02T04:19:06Z beach: pillton: It looks to me like they did that in the Common Lisp HyperSpec just because the :FROM-END keyword would have no effect otherwise. 2015-04-02T04:19:13Z PuercoPop: what other method besides using tmux do people use to deploy CL? sb-daemon? 2015-04-02T04:19:28Z pjb: I've used screen instead of tmux. 2015-04-02T04:19:41Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-02T04:20:18Z electrojustin: is it bad that I use loop a lot? 2015-04-02T04:20:23Z PuercoPop: but basically a terminal multiplexer and start it from the CLI? 2015-04-02T04:20:37Z pjb: yes. 2015-04-02T04:20:56Z pjb: The advantage of that, is that you can easily connect and maintain the server. 2015-04-02T04:22:00Z electrojustin: I get that lisp kind of lends itself to recursion, but a lot of things just iterative to me... 2015-04-02T04:22:08Z electrojustin: *just seem 2015-04-02T04:22:12Z pjb: it's ok. 2015-04-02T04:22:26Z pjb: mind you, CL even has TAGBODY/GO ! 2015-04-02T04:22:27Z beach: electrojustin: Common Lisp lends itself very well to iteration because of LOOP. 2015-04-02T04:22:47Z PuercoPop: well I'm using cl-launch, to start the apps. Well I'll keep using a multiplexer then 2015-04-02T04:22:48Z pillton checks his 900 source files and finds two uses of :from-end. 2015-04-02T04:23:11Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-02T04:23:19Z PuercoPop: btw I'm using your suggestion from a couple of months back to change the configuration in the server, thanks pjb! 2015-04-02T04:23:26Z pillton: beach: Clearly, you use :from-end more often then me. :) 2015-04-02T04:23:38Z pjb: :from-end is quite used in ~/quicklisp, but one would have to find it used with a key or test with side effect. 2015-04-02T04:23:43Z beach: pillton: For REDUCE #'APPEND it is mandatory 2015-04-02T04:24:03Z beach: electrojustin: That is a straw man fallacy: invent something that is false, and then argue against it. 2015-04-02T04:24:03Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-04-02T04:24:36Z beach: electrojustin: Or rather, argue against the person or thing (in this case Common Lisp) that favors the thing you invented. 2015-04-02T04:24:40Z electrojustin: oh I didn't mean it that way 2015-04-02T04:24:41Z Bike: recursion and iteration are mere illusions, the only real system is FRACTRAN 2015-04-02T04:24:47Z electrojustin: I wasn't arguing against common lisp 2015-04-02T04:24:52Z Zhivago: electrojustin: Iteration is recursion. The only question is, "does it support backtracking?" 2015-04-02T04:24:55Z electrojustin: I was arguing against my programming style 2015-04-02T04:25:08Z beach: electrojustin: If you like iteration, your programming style is fine. 2015-04-02T04:26:09Z beach: electrojustin: In the SICL repository: git grep "(loop" | wc -l => 4309 2015-04-02T04:26:28Z electrojustin: iteration is how I've always done it, but I figured since lisp is a little better at functional programming than any of the other languages I know I should try to see the other side 2015-04-02T04:27:46Z pillton: beach: What do you mean by mandatory? 2015-04-02T04:27:59Z Zhivago: electro: Do you know how to do a CPS transform? 2015-04-02T04:28:03Z beach: pillton: Unless you want to make it quadratic. 2015-04-02T04:28:14Z electrojustin: Zhivago: no 2015-04-02T04:28:33Z Zhivago: electo: If you learn how, then all of these issues will become much clearer. 2015-04-02T04:28:37Z pillton: beach: Ah right. I see. 2015-04-02T04:34:08Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T04:34:10Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-04-02T04:34:19Z pillton: beach: Do implementations detect that optimisation at runtime? 2015-04-02T04:34:35Z beach: Which one? 2015-04-02T04:34:46Z pillton: (reduce #'append ..) 2015-04-02T04:35:18Z beach: You mean do it from the end even though :FROM-END is NIL? I doubt it. 2015-04-02T04:36:01Z beach: Try it with some long lists and you'll see the difference. 2015-04-02T04:36:52Z pillton: I'm trying to decide if that optimisation is good or not. i.e. Do what I mean rather than what I say. 2015-04-02T04:37:16Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-02T04:37:45Z Bike: well it probably doesn't have any effect beyond timing because append doesn't have side effects or nuthin. 2015-04-02T04:37:54Z Bike: but it's the kind of optimization it's cheaper to teach the programmer than the compiler, probably. 2015-04-02T04:37:57Z beach: You would have to detect that it is APPEND. 2015-04-02T04:38:29Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T04:38:32Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-02T04:38:45Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T04:38:58Z beach: pillton: I think the problem here is that there is probably hundreds of such optimizations that a compiler could do and each one has to be detected separately, so I suspect implementors don't bother. 2015-04-02T04:40:19Z beach: For example, the LispWorks person told me that when :TEST is EQ, then LispWorks does :FROM-END T just like :FROM-END NIL which is arguably correct since EQ can't fail and has no side effects. 2015-04-02T04:40:43Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-04-02T04:40:49Z electrojustin: ...so is CPS just chaining callback functions? 2015-04-02T04:41:19Z Bike: yep 2015-04-02T04:41:51Z electrojustin: ...why would you ever want that? that sounds like a great way to fill up your stack quickly 2015-04-02T04:42:09Z beach: electrojustin: That's why there is tail-call optimization. 2015-04-02T04:42:11Z Bike: with tco you don't need a stack for most of it. 2015-04-02T04:42:29Z Bike: and it makes a nice intermediate form for compilers, since control transfers are pretty explicit. 2015-04-02T04:44:07Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-02T04:45:35Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-04-02T04:45:56Z Bike: scheme has a special function called call/cc that lets you pretend you're writing CPS without going through the trouble, and you can get some pretty wicked control constructs like that. 2015-04-02T04:46:47Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-04-02T04:47:46Z pillton: beach: Right. 2015-04-02T04:49:23Z electrojustin: but what does that offer? i can understand a callback or two, but chaining them together just sounds like a headache for both the programmer and potentially the compiler. 2015-04-02T04:49:37Z s1n4 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-02T04:49:48Z beach: electrojustin: You need to go read a paper on CPS. 2015-04-02T04:49:57Z Bike: it offers a uniform representation for yeah that would probably be better. 2015-04-02T04:50:04Z beach: electrojustin: Or a book. I recommend "Lisp in Small Pieces." 2015-04-02T04:50:30Z beach assumes LiSP discusses CPS, but can't remember. 2015-04-02T04:51:13Z Bike: yeah, it's the basis of the denotational semantics 2015-04-02T04:51:18Z Bike: among other things 2015-04-02T04:51:38Z beach: Right, of course. That's where he uses it a lot. 2015-04-02T04:52:02Z beach: Terrible memory. I even taught a course based on that. 2015-04-02T04:53:03Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-02T04:53:25Z beach: On a different topic: A few months ago, we basically received a go-ahead to put the ANSI test suite by Paul Dietz on some Git repository according to the BSD license. 2015-04-02T04:53:34Z beach: A few days ago, I discovered defects in SHIFTF in most free implementations. Yesterday I noticed that the test suite doesn't test for those cases. It would then be a good idea to contribute test cases to the test suite before forgetting. 2015-04-02T04:53:37Z beach: But it would be even better if someone other than myself could take care of that. Any takers? 2015-04-02T04:54:04Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T04:54:07Z Bike: oh, that reminds me. do you think (format nil "~vd" -1000 -1000) should work? having a negative minimum column number, basically. 2015-04-02T04:54:52Z beach assumes Bike is using the plural "you". 2015-04-02T04:55:22Z Bike: well, also the people who care about standard edge cases named beach you. it's a subtle one. 2015-04-02T04:56:30Z beach: Bike: OK. Do we have any evidence either way (work or not)? 2015-04-02T04:57:29Z beach: Bike: If not, it is more a question for Common Lisp version 2 (which will be called something else so as to avoid confusion with CLtL2). 2015-04-02T04:57:46Z Bike: doesn't work on sbcl (but it's an easy fix), pjb i think tried it on clisp and found it worked. 2015-04-02T04:58:01Z beach: It treats it like 0? 2015-04-02T04:58:10Z beach: Seems reasonable to me, if so. 2015-04-02T04:58:15Z Bike: yes. same on ccl. 2015-04-02T04:58:27Z novemberist joined #lisp 2015-04-02T04:58:45Z Bike: the reasoning being that it just says it has to print at least that many columns, so for a negative number that's always true. 2015-04-02T04:59:12Z beach: That's evidence enough to me. 2015-04-02T04:59:32Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-02T04:59:50Z Bike: well, i'll file a bug then. 2015-04-02T05:00:20Z beach: Bike: Are you coming to ELS? I understand there are 78 people registered SO FAR. Compare that to 35 for last ILC in Montreal. It should be worth showing up. 2015-04-02T05:01:00Z Bike: i don't really have the means to fly to europe right now. 2015-04-02T05:01:09Z Bike: especially not during the school year... 2015-04-02T05:01:18Z beach: Yes, I see. 2015-04-02T05:01:22Z maria1 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T05:01:23Z beach: Too bad. 2015-04-02T05:01:39Z maria1: hola 2015-04-02T05:02:20Z beach: Hello maria1. 2015-04-02T05:02:40Z maria1: de donde eres? 2015-04-02T05:03:25Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-02T05:04:46Z electrojustin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-02T05:04:52Z beach: Well, I'll see in the next few days whether someone would be interested in putting up the ANSI test suite in a GIT repository. Otherwise, I might just go ahead and do it myself. 2015-04-02T05:05:30Z maria1: hola? 2015-04-02T05:07:50Z maria1 left #lisp 2015-04-02T05:08:02Z Bike: beach: not https://github.com/rtoy/ansi-cl-tests? 2015-04-02T05:08:43Z beach: Bike: Excellent! 2015-04-02T05:10:13Z Bike: i hope the sbcl people don't get too annoyed at the weird bug reports i put in sometimes. 2015-04-02T05:12:05Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-04-02T05:13:54Z n-pyon-complete is now known as realizable-pyon 2015-04-02T05:14:39Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-04-02T05:16:26Z electrojustin joined #lisp 2015-04-02T05:17:45Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-02T05:17:52Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-02T05:18:15Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-02T05:19:38Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-02T05:19:55Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-02T05:20:30Z dfinning_ joined #lisp 2015-04-02T05:21:09Z gko__ joined #lisp 2015-04-02T05:21:43Z dfinninger quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-02T05:22:09Z Beetny quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Would you like to know more?) 2015-04-02T05:26:18Z quasisane quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-02T05:28:34Z hefner quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-02T05:32:16Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-02T05:32:47Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-02T05:35:46Z quasisane joined #lisp 2015-04-02T05:35:57Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T05:36:16Z dfinning_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T05:36:23Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-02T05:36:24Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-02T05:37:47Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-02T05:41:15Z hefner joined #lisp 2015-04-02T05:42:03Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-04-02T05:43:56Z electrojustin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-02T05:44:17Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-02T05:44:49Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2015-04-02T05:49:25Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-02T05:49:36Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2015-04-02T05:51:14Z beach: mrSpec: Thanks for the offer. It is all taken care of though. I wrote to LispWorks and got a clear explanation from them. 2015-04-02T05:55:00Z mrSpec: beach: oki! 2015-04-02T05:56:00Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-02T05:59:40Z zacharias_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-02T06:01:17Z beach: So the thing to do would be to "fork" rtoym's ANSI test suite repository and then make pull requests? 2015-04-02T06:01:50Z Shinmera: That's how it usually goes if you don't have direct write access. 2015-04-02T06:02:24Z beach: OK, that's what I shall do. 2015-04-02T06:02:35Z beach: Shinmera: You taught me how to do it as I recall. 2015-04-02T06:03:01Z Shinmera: I talked about it in #clasp once, but I'm sure you can figure it out again yourself if needed. It's not complicated. 2015-04-02T06:03:13Z beach: Yeah, and I know how to read too. 2015-04-02T06:03:35Z Shinmera: I would be worried otherwise. You'd have to be a psychic! 2015-04-02T06:03:59Z beach: I guess so. 2015-04-02T06:04:02Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-02T06:05:27Z Shinmera: Oh, while you're still here, I recall you mentioned some places in London to visit to have a chat. What were those again? I'd like to have a look around on google maps. 2015-04-02T06:06:57Z beach: Well, I don't know London very well, but I know we are close to the Greenwich observatory. 2015-04-02T06:07:12Z leo2007 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T06:07:25Z leo2007 left #lisp 2015-04-02T06:08:15Z beach: We are also close to the "Docklands", but I don't exactly know what to do there. 2015-04-02T06:09:10Z Shinmera: Looks like the observatory is about 20 minutes from Goldsmiths by PT. 2015-04-02T06:09:32Z beach: It's 2 minutes from the hotel we stay at. :) 2015-04-02T06:09:48Z Shinmera: Right. 2015-04-02T06:10:38Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-02T06:11:49Z jackdaniel: o/ 2015-04-02T06:13:12Z Shinmera: There seem to be a bunch of cafés and restaurants close to Goldsmiths, so I'm sure it wouldn't be much of a problem to find something where you could get your glass of wine. 2015-04-02T06:13:33Z beach: Definitely no problem. 2015-04-02T06:14:31Z x1n4u joined #lisp 2015-04-02T06:14:39Z jackdaniel: is anyone in London on friday/saturday/sunday? (: 2015-04-02T06:15:05Z Shinmera: you mean on the 19/20/21st? Or the coming weekend? 2015-04-02T06:15:11Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-02T06:15:23Z beach: Me and my wife will be there. But I think she has something lined up on Saturday at least. 2015-04-02T06:15:34Z jackdaniel: 17/18/19 2015-04-02T06:16:12Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-02T06:16:20Z Shinmera: Err yes. I'll be flying in on Sunday, but I'll only arrive at the hotel around 21:00 iirc, so I doubt I can still do much with the day then. 2015-04-02T06:16:48Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-02T06:17:06Z jackdaniel: i'll be with my fiancee, so if you'll find time we can meet 2015-04-02T06:17:39Z beach: Sounds good. 2015-04-02T06:18:00Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: that's a shame, beer maybe? 2015-04-02T06:18:23Z Shinmera: I don't drink alcohol, but I could be up for going out for a drink, sure. 2015-04-02T06:18:27Z Shinmera: If that isn't too late for you. 2015-04-02T06:18:50Z s1n4 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T06:19:11Z beach: Time to get to work! 2015-04-02T06:19:13Z beach left #lisp 2015-04-02T06:20:24Z jackdaniel: some jokers displaced our gate and put it on top of the bus station ^_^ (local tradition, wednesday is so called judases, and youngsters get drunk and make jokes areound) 2015-04-02T06:20:57Z jackdaniel: wednesday before easter 2015-04-02T06:22:40Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-02T06:22:44Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-02T06:23:43Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-04-02T06:24:37Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-02T06:28:40Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-02T06:31:20Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-02T06:32:56Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: how so, haven't you mentioned glass of wine earlier? (I'd love to meet you in person, it's not too late for sure) 2015-04-02T06:32:56Z thodg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-02T06:36:12Z Shinmera: beach required a glass of wine for a chat. I personally don't drink alcohol. 2015-04-02T06:38:37Z jackdaniel: uhm 2015-04-02T06:38:45Z shifty joined #lisp 2015-04-02T06:39:23Z Guest47109 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T06:39:31Z kuanyui left #lisp 2015-04-02T06:46:28Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-04-02T06:47:18Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-02T06:49:14Z a2015_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-02T06:49:45Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-02T06:50:57Z Guest47109 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-02T06:53:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-02T06:53:20Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-04-02T06:53:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-02T06:53:50Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-02T06:57:14Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-04-02T07:04:34Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-02T07:08:16Z roscoe_tw joined #lisp 2015-04-02T07:08:59Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-02T07:09:27Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T07:10:35Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 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(get-setf-expansion '(values a b c)) 2015-04-02T07:34:10Z Shinmera: G-S-E is a function, not a macro. 2015-04-02T07:34:17Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-04-02T07:34:36Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-04-02T07:37:22Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: thanks! 2015-04-02T07:37:31Z jackdaniel feels smarter already :-) 2015-04-02T07:38:21Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-02T07:39:02Z zacts quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-02T07:39:07Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-02T07:42:42Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T07:46:16Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T07:46:39Z mvilleneuve__ joined #lisp 2015-04-02T07:56:39Z _leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-04-02T07:58:26Z arenz joined #lisp 2015-04-02T07:59:21Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2015-04-02T08:02:13Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-04-02T08:02:37Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-02T08:03:42Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-02T08:04:24Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-04-02T08:04:43Z jlongster 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multiple-value-prog1? 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I also use C-c M-q on a form to reindent. 2015-04-02T14:24:26Z Shinmera: Or activate electric-indent-mode to automatically have indentation whenever you press enter. 2015-04-02T14:24:35Z mega1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-02T14:24:41Z average quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-02T14:24:55Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-02T14:26:05Z average joined #lisp 2015-04-02T14:26:05Z average quit (Changing host) 2015-04-02T14:26:05Z average joined #lisp 2015-04-02T14:26:38Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-02T14:26:38Z kaiyin: dkcl: it seems there is no command called indent? 2015-04-02T14:26:48Z dim: with paredit M-q indents current form 2015-04-02T14:27:03Z dim: M-q runs the command paredit-reindent-defun 2015-04-02T14:27:29Z dkcl: kaiyin: indent-region, sorry 2015-04-02T14:27:52Z dkcl: kaiyin: You would first need to activate Lisp mode, or Paredit 2015-04-02T14:28:06Z kaiyin: dkcl: yeah, I have both activated. 2015-04-02T14:28:18Z dkcl: That should take care of the whole file then 2015-04-02T14:29:37Z kaiyin: dkcl: yeah, that's exactly what i wanted. thanks! 2015-04-02T14:29:46Z dkcl: You're welcome 2015-04-02T14:30:40Z gklimowicz quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-02T14:33:44Z guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T14:40:12Z dim: what is the current lib to use for URL decoding? 2015-04-02T14:40:37Z dim: quri seems good 2015-04-02T14:40:51Z billstclair joined #lisp 2015-04-02T14:41:22Z yenda quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-02T14:41:35Z decent joined #lisp 2015-04-02T14:42:11Z dim: I guess I'm going to try using https://raw.githubusercontent.com/fukamachi/quri/master/src/decode.lisp directly as quri is not in quicklisp yet and not in my debian package list either (yet) 2015-04-02T14:42:44Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T14:44:19Z Xach: quri was downloaded 700+ times in february 2015-04-02T14:44:25Z Xach: how did it get out? 2015-04-02T14:44:37Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2015-04-02T14:45:01Z dim: sorry I have a too old ql dist here 2015-04-02T14:45:09Z Xach: so old 2015-04-02T14:45:14Z dim: (gethash "quri" (ql-fetch-current-releases)) shows it's ok 2015-04-02T14:45:24Z dim: #S(QL-RELEASE :PROJECT "quri" :VERSION "20150302" :URL "http://beta.quicklisp.org/archive/quri/2015-03-02/quri-20150302-git.tgz" :SIZE "12517" :FILE-MD5 "0b37a519ea7f881b1dd7e91ea7d3ed39" :CONTENT-SHA1 "64d4629122cb785ab829c564de48db5cefb46659" :PREFIX "quri-20150302-git" :SYSTEMS ("quri-test.asd" "quri.asd") :ARCHIVE NIL) 2015-04-02T14:45:51Z dim: ok should upgrade, then package for debian, just to have the url-decode function 2015-04-02T14:45:58Z decent quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-02T14:46:31Z dim: maybe I can find another implementation of url-decode in an existing dependency, like drakma ;-) 2015-04-02T14:46:49Z decent joined #lisp 2015-04-02T14:47:08Z Shinmera: drakma uses puri. 2015-04-02T14:47:24Z Shinmera: (To some people's disdain, if I recall) 2015-04-02T14:47:44Z Xach: puri may become the uffi to quri's cffi 2015-04-02T14:47:59Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-02T14:48:25Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-02T14:48:27Z Shinmera: The only thing I can offer is a URI validator in ratify. 2015-04-02T14:48:50Z jlongster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-02T14:49:11Z SAL9000: Xach: as in that puri will become a superset of quri? 2015-04-02T14:49:17Z dfinninger joined #lisp 2015-04-02T14:49:22Z SAL9000: last I checked there are unique features in both. 2015-04-02T14:50:05Z dim: well puri:parse-uri might be ok for my purposes, which is allowing url encoded formats in a database uri string to allow escaping some chars 2015-04-02T14:50:21Z BitPuffin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T14:51:06Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-04-02T14:51:36Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T14:52:03Z kaiyin: Isn't remove-if-not a ridiculous function name? why not just use keep? 2015-04-02T14:52:23Z Shinmera: Because of history. 2015-04-02T14:52:30Z SAL9000: kaiyin: in the name of consistency (with REMOVE, REMOVE-IF), I believe. 2015-04-02T14:52:32Z antoszka: also becasue of remove-if 2015-04-02T14:52:33Z Xach: SAL9000: as in puri came first but quri becomes more popular 2015-04-02T14:52:54Z kaiyin: ok, i see. 2015-04-02T14:53:45Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-02T14:56:57Z average quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-02T15:00:06Z jackdaniel: filter seems more natural to me then remove-if-not 2015-04-02T15:00:37Z jackdaniel: as a name 2015-04-02T15:02:30Z antoszka: that goes into :CL21 :) 2015-04-02T15:03:11Z jackdaniel: always forget name of this layer (/me notes in his notebook cl21) 2015-04-02T15:06:32Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T15:07:55Z t4nk045 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T15:07:59Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-02T15:08:55Z SAL9000: speaking of CL21; is there any info on production-readiness? 2015-04-02T15:10:05Z antoszka: I think it's more of a matter of adoption than production readiness. 2015-04-02T15:10:17Z antoszka: You're free to use in your own projects and it should work. 2015-04-02T15:11:02Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-02T15:11:47Z gklimowicz joined #lisp 2015-04-02T15:11:54Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-02T15:11:58Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T15:12:26Z a2015 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T15:12:54Z Shinmera: A lot of people don't like CL21, so if you use it, you risk alienating potential contributor.s 2015-04-02T15:12:57Z Shinmera: *contributors. 2015-04-02T15:13:31Z SAL9000: I'd say it's "production ready" if the API is more-or-less stable & there's, say, at least 90% implementation coverage of the symbols etc. that they believe should be renamed/restructured. 2015-04-02T15:14:05Z SAL9000: Shinmera: Is there a more widely-accepted alternative, or do people just believe that CL should be used without such layers? 2015-04-02T15:14:13Z Shinmera: The latter. 2015-04-02T15:14:44Z SAL9000: resistance to change strikes again :( 2015-04-02T15:14:48Z Shinmera: You're free to think that CL is mostly used by old farts (or people with an old-fart mindset), but I don't know how far that will get you. 2015-04-02T15:15:04Z Shinmera: Resistance to change is not it. Disagreement is the problem. 2015-04-02T15:15:16Z Shinmera: Everyone has a different idea of what CL should become. CL21 is not it. 2015-04-02T15:15:34Z Shinmera: The only thing that people /can/ agree on is that CL is the base set. So you use that. 2015-04-02T15:15:48Z SAL9000: better than what NIH could cause, at least. I see. 2015-04-02T15:16:51Z antoszka: Still, CL21 is not really much different than, say, various dwim.hu reader macros and functions used in a number of (arguably popular) libraries. 2015-04-02T15:17:07Z jackdaniel: i really liked cl21 2015-04-02T15:17:18Z jackdaniel: when ill have time to spare, ill give it a broader look 2015-04-02T15:17:21Z antoszka: Either should be fully compatible with ANSI CL and just run as any other library. 2015-04-02T15:17:37Z antoszka: So you're just fiddling with the syntax for your own code. 2015-04-02T15:17:53Z antoszka: Which may or may not encourage other developers to join. 2015-04-02T15:17:53Z SAL9000: antoszka: as far as I understand, the problem's if you want other people to be able to work with your code. 2015-04-02T15:18:05Z antoszka: sure. 2015-04-02T15:18:21Z Shinmera: You're free to rewrite the reader to parse Python code and write your CL in that too. 2015-04-02T15:18:28Z antoszka: But, as I say, it isn't fundamentally different than the other libraries changing the look of the code. 2015-04-02T15:18:30Z Shinmera: That won't make any more CL people want to write your code. 2015-04-02T15:19:18Z SAL9000: heh, maybe a "CLPython" would bring more people to Lisp in general by making it look like what they understand already :-) 2015-04-02T15:19:52Z kaiyin: what do you use for autocompleting lisp source code in emacs? 2015-04-02T15:20:13Z jackdaniel: well, wont make ppl who use cl contribute to your libs, but might make more people to use lisp 2015-04-02T15:20:18Z jackdaniel: and theyll contrib 2015-04-02T15:20:24Z antoszka: kaiyin: SLIME seems to install everything needed for it to work. 2015-04-02T15:20:34Z t4nk045 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-02T15:20:39Z Xach: kaiyin: i use slime and C-c C-i 2015-04-02T15:20:41Z antoszka: kaiyin: I don't install anything else. 2015-04-02T15:20:56Z antoszka: Or M- 2015-04-02T15:21:59Z Shinmera: kaiyin: There's also auto-complete with ac-slime. 2015-04-02T15:22:16Z Shinmera: (auto-complete being an emacs package) 2015-04-02T15:22:37Z kaiyin: cool. m-tab works fine, it seems. 2015-04-02T15:23:10Z Xach uses m-tab to switch between applications 2015-04-02T15:24:33Z antoszka: I use mod4 for all window-manager related functions, so that I don't have to sacrifice any standard application shortcuts. 2015-04-02T15:25:11Z dim: I use C-M-i in Slime FWIW, it's another way to spell out C-TAB 2015-04-02T15:25:23Z SAL9000: Xach: (define-key slime-mode-map (kbd "whatever") 'slime-complete-symbol) 2015-04-02T15:25:24Z dim: sorry, M-TAB 2015-04-02T15:25:28Z dlowe: keyboard manufacturers politely include a "windows" button just for binding keys for windows managers 2015-04-02T15:25:34Z dim: indeed M-TAB is used by the os here too 2015-04-02T15:25:37Z Xach: SAL9000: what is that for? 2015-04-02T15:25:55Z dim: C-M-i works quite fine, SAL9000, no need for another one 2015-04-02T15:26:08Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-02T15:26:44Z SAL9000: Xach: you said m-tab is taken, that command can be used to bind another key to slime-complete-symbol, but as dim said C-M-i also works 2015-04-02T15:26:57Z Xach: SAL9000: I also mentioned what I already happily use. 2015-04-02T15:26:58Z SAL9000: I have all WM shortcuts on Super, so I never needed C-M-i 2015-04-02T15:27:02Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-02T15:27:12Z Xach: C-c C-i is it. 2015-04-02T15:27:40Z dim: I just prefer C-M-i which I find easier, but I guess it's just an habbit after that, cool that C-c C-i works too 2015-04-02T15:27:52Z SAL9000: heh, so many completion keystrokes. 2015-04-02T15:28:35Z Xach really wants to figure out how to get ccl objc-bridge method syntax #/foo working with slime features like M-. and slime-who-calls 2015-04-02T15:35:18Z average joined #lisp 2015-04-02T15:38:35Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-04-02T15:39:13Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Quit: My legs are OK) 2015-04-02T15:42:19Z gklimowicz quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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If you have trouble downloading it, tell me and I'll upload it some other way. 2015-04-02T17:41:13Z Bicyclidine: "a performant Common Lisp that can expose C++ libraries", wouldn't "use" or something be a better verb than "expose"? 2015-04-02T17:41:58Z Bicyclidine: it says clasp is "inspired by" ECL, but you reused a lot of code, right? "inspired" seems a bit weak. 2015-04-02T17:42:34Z Bicyclidine: "Clasp was designed to ease interoperation of Clasp Common Lisp with foreign C++ libraries" you probably want to remove the second "clasp" 2015-04-02T17:45:20Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T17:45:49Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T17:45:51Z Bicyclidine: you might get questions about exactly how long it takes to do lisp NLX and those 18000 lines of MPS code. 2015-04-02T17:45:55Z Bicyclidine: and that's all i got. 2015-04-02T17:46:25Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-02T17:46:49Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-02T17:47:02Z DeadTrickster: university has .com domain that is strange 2015-04-02T17:47:48Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-04-02T17:47:49Z Bicyclidine: i don't think drmeister's university is the irc cloud content network. 2015-04-02T17:47:55Z dim: I'm only now realizing this, drmeister, we could use clasp to provide a PL/Common-Lisp (or PLCL) for PostgreSQL, right? 2015-04-02T17:48:19Z DeadTrickster: Bicyclidine, his email in the paper meister@temple.com 2015-04-02T17:48:43Z dim: PostgreSQL is all C code, my understanding is that clasp C++ properties would allow it to be embedded into PostgreSQL, I would have to check things out 2015-04-02T17:49:01Z Bicyclidine: heh, temple.com does not seem to be temple.edu, that's something to fix. 2015-04-02T17:50:17Z dim: using exceptions in clasp might make it impossible to use as a PostgreSQL PL that said, bummer 2015-04-02T17:50:31Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T17:51:01Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-02T17:51:14Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-02T17:52:06Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-02T17:52:56Z emaczen: Xach: The html output is not nested even though the s-expressions are -- It's all good now though I did some html/css magic 2015-04-02T17:53:21Z theseb left #lisp 2015-04-02T17:57:44Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-02T17:57:50Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-02T18:01:42Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-02T18:02:22Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-04-02T18:03:21Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-02T18:03:37Z chu quit (Changing host) 2015-04-02T18:03:37Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-02T18:04:18Z jasom: emaczen: can you post a complete test-case? 2015-04-02T18:04:24Z jasom: emaczen: I suspect you are doing something wrong 2015-04-02T18:05:23Z cabaire quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-02T18:05:28Z jasom: For example, what you posted works for me: "" 2015-04-02T18:06:09Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-02T18:06:48Z vap1 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T18:16:14Z dkcl quit (Quit: :o) 2015-04-02T18:16:22Z drmeister: temple.com - how the heck did that get in there? 2015-04-02T18:16:46Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T18:17:06Z drmeister: While it is my home and as a rule I don't complain about where I am - "Temple" is an unfortunate name for a university. 2015-04-02T18:19:43Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T18:20:21Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-04-02T18:20:42Z yrk quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.0.50.1)) 2015-04-02T18:21:30Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-02T18:22:46Z Jaskologist quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-02T18:24:52Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-02T18:27:40Z ruste joined #lisp 2015-04-02T18:30:28Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-02T18:32:24Z Jaskologist joined #lisp 2015-04-02T18:33:44Z steelbird joined #lisp 2015-04-02T18:35:19Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-02T18:36:53Z PuercoPop: dim: If you want to embed a CL implementation in C, ECL (or its fork MKCL) would work too 2015-04-02T18:39:20Z drmeister: dim: Yes you could use it to develop a PostgreSQL/Common-Lisp interface 2015-04-02T18:39:45Z dim: might have a look someday 2015-04-02T18:40:27Z drmeister: I don't think C++ exceptions will cause problems for embedded C libraries. C++ exception handling will just bypass C code. 2015-04-02T18:40:27Z dim: I guess best would be to start a CL instance at PG startup then somehow have it execute/compile the code for the stored procedures, in separate threads, but with some ways to share things 2015-04-02T18:40:41Z Longlius quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-02T18:40:41Z dim: PostgreSQL uses long jumps for error handling 2015-04-02T18:40:58Z jasom: drmeister, dim you need to make sure that the C++ runtime library gets initialized 2015-04-02T18:41:01Z dim: it's important not to mess with that, and C++ exception does mess with that IIUC 2015-04-02T18:41:22Z dim: but well I have absolutely no time to put into such a project at the moment so it's just hand waving 2015-04-02T18:41:41Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-04-02T18:41:41Z dim: just ignore the idea for now, I'm sure you have better to do ;-) 2015-04-02T18:42:35Z drmeister: dim: That will only cause problems if Clasp code calls PostgreSQL and PostgreSQL calls back into Clasp and Clasp calls back into PostgreSQL and _then_ a long jump jumps over the intervening Clasp frames on the stack. 2015-04-02T18:46:13Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-02T18:46:44Z s1n4 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-02T18:47:00Z someone quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-04-02T18:47:14Z drmeister: Non-local exits in Common Lisp that require C++ exception handing are pretty rare when Clasp starts up - I'm currently putting print statements whenever they happen (to debug an NLX issue) and only a few hundred take place during Clasp start up. 2015-04-02T18:48:15Z someon joined #lisp 2015-04-02T18:50:04Z Longlius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-02T18:50:51Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-04-02T18:51:02Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-04-02T18:51:32Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-04-02T18:51:32Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-04-02T18:51:38Z someon quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-02T18:52:46Z someon joined #lisp 2015-04-02T18:52:53Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-02T18:53:41Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-02T18:54:40Z drmeister: Thanks folks - I've incorporated your suggestions. 2015-04-02T18:55:01Z average: folks, your suggestions have been incorporate 2015-04-02T18:55:04Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-02T18:55:04Z average: your input 2015-04-02T18:55:04Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-02T18:55:09Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-02T18:55:18Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2015-04-02T18:55:24Z average: drmeister: here's a more corporate version "thank you folks for your valuable input" 2015-04-02T18:55:36Z Xach: emaczen: i'm with jasom. i don't see the same problem you're describing. 2015-04-02T18:55:53Z average: drmeister: but you need to wear a suit and have a very serious face when you say it 2015-04-02T18:56:31Z average: jk 2015-04-02T18:56:42Z steelbird quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-02T18:56:51Z drmeister: Considering that I'm in my jammies - I'll stick with what I said. 2015-04-02T18:57:57Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2015-04-02T19:00:08Z ajtulloc_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T19:00:52Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-02T19:10:21Z DeadTrickster: dlowe, ping 2015-04-02T19:10:45Z dlowe: DeadTrickster: ? 2015-04-02T19:11:06Z jackdaniel: you should answer pong :( 2015-04-02T19:11:10Z DeadTrickster: dlowe, any change for this (https://github.com/dlowe-net/local-time/pull/30) to be merged? 2015-04-02T19:11:28Z DeadTrickster: change = chance 2015-04-02T19:11:48Z dlowe: weird. I thought I'd commented on it. 2015-04-02T19:12:08Z dlowe: can you explain what the added value is, there? 2015-04-02T19:12:46Z DeadTrickster: when you need custom formatting you don't have to write big ugly lists, also it is easier to read 2015-04-02T19:12:53Z DeadTrickster: especially for newcomers 2015-04-02T19:13:13Z DeadTrickster: because that is how date formatting is usually implemented 2015-04-02T19:13:25Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-02T19:13:53Z antgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T19:14:01Z dlowe: that's how it's usually implemented in C and C-based languages, yes. 2015-04-02T19:14:21Z dlowe: there's not a convenient alternative in those languages 2015-04-02T19:14:46Z dlowe: I'm sorry, but it mostly looks like a way to introduce errors to me. 2015-04-02T19:14:52Z antgreen joined #lisp 2015-04-02T19:15:49Z dlowe: You could make a string-to-timestamp-format libary and build it on top of local-time 2015-04-02T19:16:02Z DeadTrickster: dlowe, are you considering prolog as C-based language? -) not trolling just asking 2015-04-02T19:16:34Z dlowe: I said nothing about other languages that may also incidentally use strings 2015-04-02T19:16:50Z DeadTrickster: dlowe, yea i'll do just that, I asked you here because it was quiet on github 2015-04-02T19:17:16Z DeadTrickster: I'm closing PR then 2015-04-02T19:17:23Z dlowe: sorry, I didn't mean to let that slip through the cracks 2015-04-02T19:17:24Z pjb: kaiyin: also, you can ignore (remove-if-not p s) and use instead (remove-if (complement p) s). 2015-04-02T19:17:48Z kaiyin: pjb, great, thanks. 2015-04-02T19:19:35Z DeadTrickster: dlowe, funny we are using net-telent-date for parsing and local-time for formatting I think I better create something like umbrella project 2015-04-02T19:20:16Z dlowe: yeah, net-telent-date has a nice parser. 2015-04-02T19:21:39Z pjb: dlowe: pp is not a macro it's a function! 2015-04-02T19:21:58Z dlowe: pjb: yes...? 2015-04-02T19:22:08Z pjb: why did you define it as a macro? 2015-04-02T19:22:19Z pjb: (it's an emacs lisp function) 2015-04-02T19:22:32Z dlowe: elisp only has dynamically scoped variables :) 2015-04-02T19:22:40Z pjb: not anymore. 2015-04-02T19:22:51Z dlowe: true, but it's still dynamic-by-default 2015-04-02T19:23:18Z pjb: Nah, -*- mode:elisp;lexical-binding:t -*- is in all my el files. 2015-04-02T19:23:53Z dlowe: pp the-CL-macro will output variables in its lexical scope properly. That's why. :p 2015-04-02T19:24:45Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-04-02T19:33:00Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-02T19:34:19Z Patzy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T19:34:27Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-02T19:35:24Z pjb: drmeister: I wouldn't elide the scheme from urls. It's not clear whether, how and when the C++ templates are generated from C++ library to be used by Clasp. Does it requires recompilation/linking of clasp, or just loading a shared library? Also, what are the consequences of using the GC? Won't we have to recompile all the C++ libraries with MPS templates for pointers? (Perhaps it's out of scope of this 2-page presentation?) 2015-04-02T19:36:20Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T19:36:20Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-02T19:36:21Z pjb: drmeister: code doesn't "use" licenses, but is "distributed under the terms of" this licence, or is "licensed under" this licence. 2015-04-02T19:38:06Z `eeks joined #lisp 2015-04-02T19:38:10Z `eeks quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-02T19:38:19Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T19:39:55Z pjb: DeadTrickster: in the USA, universities are commercial, for-profit entities. :-( 2015-04-02T19:40:13Z pjb: DeadTrickster: why do you think american graduates are in debt? 2015-04-02T19:42:34Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-02T19:46:07Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-04-02T19:56:57Z emaczen: Xach: when you say you don't see the same problem, you mean that when you evaluate the form I pasted earlier that the html expansion is likewise nested? 2015-04-02T19:58:29Z Xach: emaczen: it is nested, like jasom showed 2015-04-02T19:59:06Z emaczen: Xach: Okay, I went back through the history and I see that now. 2015-04-02T19:59:13Z faheem_: pjb: some describe themselves as non-profit. 2015-04-02T19:59:21Z emaczen: jasom: Thanks for verifying that it can indeed be nested. 2015-04-02T20:00:01Z faheem_: and I thought state schools were tehnically non-profit anyway. 2015-04-02T20:00:46Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-04-02T20:01:01Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-04-02T20:01:43Z DeadTrickster: pjb, because statistics says your salary is higher if you have a degree 2015-04-02T20:03:08Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-02T20:03:18Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-02T20:03:26Z DeadTrickster: that this why they are commercial because for general people it's kind of money-making tool, investment 2015-04-02T20:03:37Z zacharias quit (Changing host) 2015-04-02T20:03:37Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-02T20:03:51Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-02T20:05:46Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-04-02T20:06:15Z ajtulloc_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T20:07:09Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-02T20:07:20Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-02T20:07:51Z Xach: emaczen: what do you get? 2015-04-02T20:08:45Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-02T20:08:55Z emaczen: I got ... 2015-04-02T20:10:10Z emaczen: I ended up writing my s-expr like that and used some css to get the formatting that I wanted 2015-04-02T20:13:16Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-04-02T20:13:56Z Xach: emaczen: can you show the code? 2015-04-02T20:15:13Z emaczen: Xach: I don't have it anymore -- sorry 2015-04-02T20:15:34Z emaczen: Let me check my git history 2015-04-02T20:17:17Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T20:17:34Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-02T20:18:56Z Xach: no problem. i'm just curious what may have differed between what you tried and what jasom and i tried. 2015-04-02T20:20:22Z futpib quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-02T20:21:04Z emaczen: Xach: I can't find anything sensical... 2015-04-02T20:21:08Z emaczen: Can I see what you tried? 2015-04-02T20:21:32Z emaczen: Do you regularly use cl-who? 2015-04-02T20:22:32Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T20:23:06Z srcerer joined #lisp 2015-04-02T20:23:34Z Xach: (cl-who:with-html-output-to-string (stream) (:input :type "text" (:i :class "bar"))) => "" 2015-04-02T20:23:52Z Xach: i use cl-who sometimes. 2015-04-02T20:24:05Z emaczen: Yeah that works for me as well... 2015-04-02T20:24:17Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-04-02T20:24:21Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-02T20:25:47Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-04-02T20:26:14Z steelbird joined #lisp 2015-04-02T20:27:44Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-02T20:28:17Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-02T20:28:33Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T20:29:52Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-02T20:31:29Z jasom: I do use cl-who fairly regularly 2015-04-02T20:31:53Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-02T20:33:45Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-02T20:34:48Z antgreen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-02T20:35:37Z emaczen: jasom: do you use parenscript too? 2015-04-02T20:37:29Z jasom: emaczen: yup 2015-04-02T20:37:32Z average: what's parenscript ? 2015-04-02T20:37:45Z emaczen: common lisp to javascript transformation 2015-04-02T20:37:46Z jasom: average: It lets you generate javascript from lisp 2015-04-02T20:37:51Z average: jasom: omg ? 2015-04-02T20:37:52Z jasom: emaczen: not at all 2015-04-02T20:37:54Z average: really ? 2015-04-02T20:38:11Z jasom: it's neither a superset nor a subset of common lisp, though there is some overlap 2015-04-02T20:38:14Z emaczen: jasom: you mean it's not complete. 2015-04-02T20:38:35Z emaczen: jasom: Ok, yes I have seen that you cannot use defaparameter for instance 2015-04-02T20:38:37Z jasom: emaczen: no, I mean it was never intended to be a common lisp to javascript transformer 2015-04-02T20:38:37Z Bicyclidine: a superset of a subset of common lisp, obviously 2015-04-02T20:38:50Z jasom: Bicyclidine: which everything is 2015-04-02T20:39:06Z Bicyclidine: yeah, it's a joke i like. 2015-04-02T20:39:08Z average has watched a presentation about something similar but with Haskell code generation Javascript.. except it looked like a contraption and rather unnecessary complication 2015-04-02T20:39:18Z average wonders if parenscript is value-add 2015-04-02T20:39:26Z jasom: IMO, the nice thing about parenscript is that it expands macros 2015-04-02T20:39:38Z jasom: and the macros *are* in common-lisp 2015-04-02T20:40:58Z vap1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T20:41:15Z jasom: and I did write a library that lets me manipulate lisp hash-tables and JS objects with identical code, so I could e.g. share validation code between client and server 2015-04-02T20:41:34Z jasom: since for UI purposes, it's nice to validate on client, but for security purposes necessary to validate on the server 2015-04-02T20:42:18Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T20:46:47Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-02T20:46:56Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-02T20:47:45Z emaczen: jasom: So I had a form like (:ol (loop for item in some-list do (htm (:li (str item))))) where some-list is initialized 2015-04-02T20:48:49Z emaczen: jasom: what do you do when you want 'some-list' to be a parenscript list? 2015-04-02T20:49:15Z emaczen: In my current case, I am populating 'some-list' when the user clicks a button 2015-04-02T20:49:48Z jasom: emaczen: no way to do that with parenscript and cl-who out-of-the-box since cl-who doesn't work with parenscript 2015-04-02T20:49:49Z Bicyclidine: you want the static html to include javascript dependent stuff? 2015-04-02T20:50:04Z jasom: emaczen: if you happen to be using ReactJS, I have a solution for you 2015-04-02T20:50:59Z jasom: emaczen: remember cl-who runs at macroexpand time, so it's insufficient for your purposes 2015-04-02T20:51:36Z emaczen: jasom: ahhh good point 2015-04-02T20:51:48Z emaczen: I'm not opposed to using ReactJS 2015-04-02T20:52:27Z jasom: react has its own way of generating html components with javascript, and I hacked that into parenscript and cl-who 2015-04-02T20:53:07Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/parenscriptx 2015-04-02T20:53:17Z emaczen: jasom: Sweet! 2015-04-02T20:53:28Z jasom: they renamed XJS to JSX while I was writing that 2015-04-02T20:54:36Z jasom: also you'll probably want to use a version of parenscript that includes my PR 2015-04-02T20:55:20Z jasom: as without it loop (and in rare cases let) is broken if this is bound to a non-default value, and you want to use this inside the loop/let body 2015-04-02T20:55:27Z emaczen: can you check the version of ASDF packages via the repl? 2015-04-02T20:55:29Z DeadTrickster: jasom, are you doing a lot of web development using lisp? 2015-04-02T20:55:56Z jasom: DeadTrickster: not really "a lot"; just I had an application that would be better on the web and I know lisp already 2015-04-02T20:56:11Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-04-02T20:56:39Z DeadTrickster: jasom, how is it going so far? what sever you are using? 2015-04-02T20:56:56Z jasom: DeadTrickster: I started out with weblocks but encountered so many issues, I switched to doing my UI in ReactJS 2015-04-02T20:57:19Z DeadTrickster: but what on the server-side? 2015-04-02T20:57:23Z jasom: DeadTrickster: right now I'm using hunchentoot, but with clacks on top, so in theory I could try out wookie, or even woo (if it ever stabilizes) 2015-04-02T20:58:02Z jasom: And I have hunchentoot sitting behind mongrel2 which handles the SSL termination (just because that's what the rest of the server was already using) 2015-04-02T20:58:47Z DeadTrickster: we are using hunchentoot too, hmm but with handrolled framework 2015-04-02T20:58:50Z jasom: but nginx or lighttpd would be fine, since it just needs any reverse-proxy 2015-04-02T20:58:56Z spyrosoft joined #lisp 2015-04-02T20:59:09Z jasom: I don't necessarily recommend clacks; it's so far neither good nor bad 2015-04-02T20:59:27Z jasom: some things are slightly better than just using hunchentoot, other things worse 2015-04-02T20:59:40Z jasom: I use optima for routing, btw 2015-04-02T21:00:08Z jasom: (it's not actually an http routing engine, but clacks gives you all the info about the request in a plist and it can match in plists just fine) 2015-04-02T21:00:08Z DeadTrickster: checkout this https://github.com/deadtrickster/http-routes 2015-04-02T21:00:28Z DeadTrickster: so far it works well but as always underdeveloped 2015-04-02T21:00:36Z jasom: DeadTrickster: let me show you how my routing works really quick... 2015-04-02T21:00:47Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-02T21:00:52Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:02:22Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-02T21:03:34Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:04:46Z aduadu joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:04:47Z DeadTrickster: jasom, what a pause ) 2015-04-02T21:04:54Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146745 2015-04-02T21:05:02Z jasom: sorry, doorbell 2015-04-02T21:05:05Z aduadu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T21:05:24Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T21:05:35Z DeadTrickster: fra 2015-04-02T21:05:45Z DeadTrickster: nkly i hate regexps here 2015-04-02T21:05:55Z DeadTrickster: you matching same string over and over again 2015-04-02T21:06:00Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:07:25Z Slothel: So, I've been going through a few Common Lisp tutorials online that are decent but I was wondering 2015-04-02T21:07:43Z Slothel: Are there any actual, physical books that any of you could recommend? 2015-04-02T21:07:49Z jasom: DeadTrickster: Yeah, I should strip the application root before matching; I currently don't do that 2015-04-02T21:08:00Z Slothel: I tend to learn better reading through a book instead of a tutorial online that only covers basic stuff 2015-04-02T21:08:07Z Slothel: Or very specific stuff like "How to do x" 2015-04-02T21:08:08Z jasom: Slothel: both pcl and gentle have physical books 2015-04-02T21:08:12Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-02T21:08:13Z jasom: minion: tell Slothel about pcl 2015-04-02T21:08:14Z minion: Slothel: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2015-04-02T21:08:16Z jasom: minion: tell Slothel about gentle 2015-04-02T21:08:16Z minion: Slothel: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 2015-04-02T21:08:41Z Slothel: jasom: Thank you! 2015-04-02T21:08:42Z jasom: I hear good things about PAIP too 2015-04-02T21:09:02Z DeadTrickster: jasom, :-) I'm hating not your particualr regexps I hate concept of suing regexps in a router 2015-04-02T21:09:05Z Slothel: jasom: Which of these two bookos are more in-depth? 2015-04-02T21:09:07Z Bicyclidine: paip has some kinda hokey stuff in it but it's solid overall. also has a metacircular interpreter, which i don't think pcl does (dunno about gentle) 2015-04-02T21:09:21Z Bicyclidine: Slothel: pcl is intended for programmers, gentle is intended for CS frosh. 2015-04-02T21:09:49Z Slothel: Bicyclidine: So would you say gentle is more theory-based and pcl is more..practical? 2015-04-02T21:09:52Z DeadTrickster: Slothel, let over lambda good too 2015-04-02T21:09:52Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:10:01Z jasom is not a fan of LoL 2015-04-02T21:10:25Z Bicyclidine: Slothel: i think that's the intent, yeah. i haven't read gentle. 2015-04-02T21:10:41Z DeadTrickster: well i'm not a fan too just enjoyed the reading 2015-04-02T21:10:59Z spyrosoft: This is the best reference I have ever found: 2015-04-02T21:10:59Z spyrosoft: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/3937526005 2015-04-02T21:11:01Z emaczen: jasom: How would you suggest that I get started with parenscriptx and react? 2015-04-02T21:11:01Z Bicyclidine: there's a nonzero chance i might meet touretzky for reasons having nothing to with lisp at some point, which is kind of weird. he's an academic, anyway, whereas gigamonkeys is a pretty chill writer 2015-04-02T21:11:03Z Slothel: Perhaps I'll just buy all three ' 2015-04-02T21:11:09Z Bicyclidine: pcl you can read free online 2015-04-02T21:11:31Z vr-rm: jasom: PAIP (Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming) by Norvig, is probably the best programming book (on any languange) that I've read. 2015-04-02T21:11:34Z jasom: Bicyclidine: gentle as well 2015-04-02T21:11:38Z Slothel: Sure but the point (for me) is that I have somethign physical to read away from my computer 2015-04-02T21:11:40Z Bicyclidine: oh yeah, right. 2015-04-02T21:11:41Z vr-rm: Also its unofficial companion https://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/cmsc421/norvig-lisp-style.pdf is excellent. 2015-04-02T21:11:58Z Bicyclidine: Slothel: yeah, that's fair. i have a paper PAIP, it is pretty nice. 2015-04-02T21:12:20Z jasom: emaczen: bug me to put up some examples, and in the meantime read a react tutorial 2015-04-02T21:12:49Z spyrosoft: Having trouble with floating point overflows - e.g. (* 4444444.4444444444d0 7777777.7777777777d0) => 3.45679012345679d13. If it keeps going, pretty soon it's past d213, and it overflows. Is there a trick to sacrificing precision to keep it from overflowing? 2015-04-02T21:13:25Z jasom: emaczen: react is essentially a declarative UI library, so you will need to wrap your brain around it 2015-04-02T21:14:46Z jasom: spyrosoft: that's not how floats work... Though I suppose you could always store a separate exponent yourself... 2015-04-02T21:14:46Z Bicyclidine: spyrosoft: i don't understand. if you're multiplying larger (not just more precise) numbers of course you're going to need more bits for the exponent. 2015-04-02T21:15:25Z jasom: spyrosoft: if you're on 32-bit x86 you could use long-floats 2015-04-02T21:15:49Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:17:10Z jasom: spyrosoft: it has 4 more bits in the exponent 2015-04-02T21:17:35Z jasom: (It's been so long since I used an x87 FPU that I had to look it up) 2015-04-02T21:19:13Z jasom: spyrosoft: alternatively, if you're using only multiply and divide, you could use log-scaled integers instead of floats. 2015-04-02T21:19:24Z Bicyclidine: eight sevens is already off by one for single floats on my machine. neato. 2015-04-02T21:19:45Z jasom doesn't know if there exists a log-scaled integer library for lisp 2015-04-02T21:23:03Z spyrosoft: In JavaScript, 4444444.4444444444 * 7777777.7777777777 => 34567901234567.9. Precision has been limited - this is what I expected to happen in CL as well. But it seems that by specifying double-float, it's trying to help in a way that I don't understand. 2015-04-02T21:23:03Z spyrosoft: Haven't tried long-float, but for the sake of speed, I'd rather keep them as doubles if possible. 2015-04-02T21:23:27Z spyrosoft: Is this how log-scaled integers work? I've never heard of that. 2015-04-02T21:23:31Z jasom: spyrosoft: double-float will be identical to javascript 2015-04-02T21:24:04Z jasom: and in fact what you pasted is the exact same number 2015-04-02T21:24:19Z spyrosoft: That makes sense. Maybe the code isn't identical. 2015-04-02T21:24:23Z Bicyclidine: spyrosoft: d13 means * 10^13. it's the same number. 2015-04-02T21:24:24Z spyrosoft: Thanks, I'll go check. 2015-04-02T21:24:26Z jasom: (= 34567901234567.9 3.45679012345679d13) 2015-04-02T21:24:50Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:24:51Z jasom: and they should overflow at the same time too, since they are using the exact same format and hardware 2015-04-02T21:24:57Z Bicyclidine: 34567901234567.9d0, ofc 2015-04-02T21:24:59Z jasom: reading in and printing might be slightly different 2015-04-02T21:25:05Z jasom: thanks Bicyclidine 2015-04-02T21:25:07Z dim: (= 34567901234567.9d0 3.45679012345679d13) 2015-04-02T21:25:07Z dim: yeah 2015-04-02T21:25:26Z jasom actually runs with double as *default-float-format* 2015-04-02T21:25:37Z Bicyclidine: not a bad idea, probably 2015-04-02T21:25:50Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-02T21:26:35Z nicdev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-02T21:27:05Z jasom: Bicyclidine: it does change the behavior of a few libraries; I don't recall what the decision was on binding specials to default values in ASDF was; Robert and Faré were debating that 2015-04-02T21:27:06Z nicdev joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:27:27Z emaczen: jasom: thanks for the information, it would be cool if you could put the (:ol (loop ... (:li ))) example when you get the chance 2015-04-02T21:27:51Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:28:22Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-02T21:28:27Z jasom checks if he has something already like that in his code 2015-04-02T21:28:51Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:29:02Z Bicyclidine: jasom: i was just thinking that spyrosoft probably doesn't know what *d-f-f* is, and if they compared a single and a double like that they'd get NIL which would probably confuse them. 2015-04-02T21:29:56Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:30:17Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-02T21:30:47Z jasom: Bicyclidine: yeah 2015-04-02T21:30:52Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-02T21:31:02Z jasom: emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146746 <-- that's taken from an autocomplete widget I wrote 2015-04-02T21:32:41Z jasom: ({ ...) puts javascript inside html and (htm ... ) puts html inside the javascript, and you can nest back and forth as much as you like 2015-04-02T21:33:33Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-04-02T21:34:14Z PuercoPop quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:34:14Z rvirding quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:34:14Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:34:16Z whartung_ joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:34:19Z jlongste` joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:34:33Z AntiSpamMeta_ joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:34:34Z jasom: note that this won't work with the current version of parenscript due to a bug fixed here: https://github.com/vsedach/Parenscript/pull/19 2015-04-02T21:34:48Z d4gg4d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:34:49Z gko quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:34:49Z billstclair_ joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:34:53Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-02T21:35:07Z jasom: with the current version of parenscript you can't use "this" inside of any loops. 2015-04-02T21:35:23Z wolf_mozart quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:35:51Z Slothel: I wish I could teach myself to speed-read while maintaining adequate comprehension 2015-04-02T21:35:55Z Slothel: I have too many things to read 2015-04-02T21:35:59Z jasom: certain special operators (including "let") have the same issue, but it comes up a lot less often 2015-04-02T21:36:31Z jasom: since most invokations of LET get elided by the parenscript compiler 2015-04-02T21:36:43Z wooden_ joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:36:50Z rvirding joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:37:04Z dan64 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:37:24Z drmeister joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:37:38Z honkfestival quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:37:59Z nicdev` joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:38:35Z d4gg4d joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:38:36Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T21:38:47Z swflint_away quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:38:47Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:38:47Z gabot quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:38:47Z ered quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:38:48Z nicdev quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:38:48Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:38:48Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:38:49Z whartung quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:38:49Z arrsim quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:38:49Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:38:49Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:38:49Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:38:50Z moomin-aba__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:38:50Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:38:50Z emaczen: jasom: thanks, I'll hack around with it :) 2015-04-02T21:38:50Z moomin-aba___ joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:38:51Z dan64 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:38:52Z honkfest1val joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:38:55Z setheus joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:38:56Z arrsim joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:38:58Z whartung_ is now known as whartung 2015-04-02T21:38:58Z billstclair_ is now known as billstclair 2015-04-02T21:38:59Z gabot joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:39:07Z impulse joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:39:07Z jasom: Slothel: best way to maintain comprehension is to DO and use books to support the doing 2015-04-02T21:39:27Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:39:44Z ered joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:39:53Z emaczen: Slothel: I agree... it's easy to gloss over something important especially in code... 2015-04-02T21:39:54Z steelbird quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:40:02Z jasom: spyrosoft: http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19957-01/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html 2015-04-02T21:40:05Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:40:11Z gko joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:40:44Z AntiSpamMeta_ is now known as AntiSpamMeta 2015-04-02T21:40:53Z Slothel: emaczen: Yeah.. I've just been putting off learning some stuff for a few years and decided recently to just go for it, but it's overwhelming trying to learn so much 2015-04-02T21:41:31Z vr-rm quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-04-02T21:41:32Z Slothel: emaczen: Specifically Im currently in CSEE in college, but I've worked primarily with C, Java, and Im trying to learn Lisp, Assembly, Emacs, Linux all at the same time 2015-04-02T21:42:18Z emaczen: I did lisp, emacs, and Linux at the same time as school as well -- it takes awhile and I still have a long way to go. 2015-04-02T21:43:24Z Excedrin: Slothel: do you have some project or goal in mind? 2015-04-02T21:43:40Z wolf_mozart joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:43:52Z swflint_away joined #lisp 2015-04-02T21:43:55Z Slothel: Excedrin: I just want to learn things on a deeper level, which is why Im botehring with Assembly, but yeah I'm building a program that I hope to make a startup out of eventually 2015-04-02T21:44:10Z Slothel: Excedrin: So I'm kind of building this thing as I'm learning Lisp 2015-04-02T21:44:16Z swflint_away is now known as swflint 2015-04-02T21:44:18Z Excedrin: cool 2015-04-02T21:44:50Z sunwukong quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:49:09Z wicope quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-02T21:50:25Z emaczen: jasom: how do I get your pull request? I tried git checkout jasom:master 2015-04-02T21:56:04Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-02T21:57:47Z dfinninger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T21:58:51Z spyrosoft: jasom, thanks for the link 2015-04-02T22:01:34Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-04-02T22:01:42Z jackdaniel: Slothel: there is a lot of opportunities to hack on ECL - linux, C and lisp ;] 2015-04-02T22:01:58Z steelbird joined #lisp 2015-04-02T22:02:37Z Slothel: jackdaniel: I'm not familiar with ECL 2015-04-02T22:02:38Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-02T22:02:49Z Slothel: jackdaniel: Is it a framework? 2015-04-02T22:03:15Z Slothel: nvm 2015-04-02T22:03:18Z Slothel: Google is my friend 2015-04-02T22:03:31Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-02T22:03:38Z jackdaniel: Slothel: common lisp implementation (one of a few) 2015-04-02T22:04:10Z Slothel: jackdaniel: I'm using SBCL right now simply because it is what this tutorial I'm going through uses 2015-04-02T22:04:22Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-02T22:04:45Z jackdaniel: Slothel: I use sbcl for most cases either ^_^ 2015-04-02T22:04:52Z Slothel: But I like this idea of being able to output directly to C 2015-04-02T22:04:55Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-02T22:05:00Z jackdaniel: I'm just saying, that working on it learned me alot in short period of time 2015-04-02T22:05:24Z ehu quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-02T22:05:41Z Slothel: I'll have to give it a shot, then. The fact that it can translate to C sounds awesome. 2015-04-02T22:05:46Z jackdaniel: anyway contributing to this compilator is a nice field to learn, and we surely lack of developers ;D 2015-04-02T22:05:49Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-02T22:06:41Z Slothel: jackdaniel: Hehe. I'm nowhere near ready to contribute to any real projects but hopefully I will be at some point! 2015-04-02T22:07:08Z jackdaniel: Slothel: thats jibberish, you learn while you do, not the other way around 2015-04-02T22:07:37Z jackdaniel: you have a problem, you attack it from different sites, and in the meantime you collect abilities 2015-04-02T22:07:49Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-02T22:08:07Z jackdaniel: im not saying ecl is only way, just did shameless plug - you can make your own project, but it has to be not a toy 2015-04-02T22:08:11Z jackdaniel: but something demanding :) 2015-04-02T22:08:30Z Slothel: jackdaniel: I agree. I'm building my project in Lisp as I'm learning, what I mean is I think I'd introduce a *lot* of bugs if I worked on someone else's project 2015-04-02T22:08:36Z Slothel: But I'd certainly give it a shot 2015-04-02T22:09:19Z jackdaniel: that's what testcases are for ;d and peer revious in a matter of fact, nobody will merge suspiociously buggy code, on merge request they'll point out mercilessly what's not ok with it 2015-04-02T22:09:39Z jackdaniel: even if these are only misplaced comments ;] 2015-04-02T22:09:40Z emaczen: jackdaniel: where is ECL hosted? 2015-04-02T22:09:52Z jackdaniel: gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp 2015-04-02T22:10:08Z jackdaniel: i've bought also domain embeddable-common-lisp.org, but don't have time to set up a webpage 2015-04-02T22:10:30Z jackdaniel: s/org/net/ 2015-04-02T22:10:55Z average: jackdaniel: are you going to make a business around ECL ? 2015-04-02T22:11:31Z jackdaniel: average: no, but I'll surely use it on my buisness projects 2015-04-02T22:11:40Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-04-02T22:11:41Z Slothel: jackdaniel: If you don't mind me asking, if I wanted to *attempt* contributing to this, where would I start? Is there a list of bugs that I can try to fix or.. 2015-04-02T22:11:45Z emaczen: jackdaniel: what are you/others doing with ECL? 2015-04-02T22:12:12Z jackdaniel: Slothel: on mentioned link (gitlab), there is issues tab, you can start there 2015-04-02T22:12:27Z jackdaniel: there are much more issues on sourceforge.net/p/ecls, havent moved all of them yet 2015-04-02T22:12:47Z jackdaniel: emaczen: right now I'm building application (pure lisp) on armv5 machine 2015-04-02T22:12:52Z Slothel: I think I'll give it a shot. The project seems really interesting. 2015-04-02T22:13:06Z jackdaniel: and writing robot kinematics on also armv5 (but different board) 2015-04-02T22:13:23Z a2015 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-02T22:13:36Z jackdaniel: Slothel: that would be great :-) 2015-04-02T22:14:08Z jackdaniel: and Evrim works on android port (it's working, we have even sample app) 2015-04-02T22:14:14Z orthecreedence joined #lisp 2015-04-02T22:14:54Z emaczen: jackdaniel: what is Evrim? I am interested in using common lisp for android 2015-04-02T22:15:04Z jackdaniel: Evrim Ulu - one of ECL devs 2015-04-02T22:15:36Z jackdaniel: emaczen: try experimental branch from git repository 2015-04-02T22:15:43Z jackdaniel: there are instructions for android cross-compilation 2015-04-02T22:16:11Z jackdaniel: it does work on bytecode tough, since there is no gcc compiler on target host 2015-04-02T22:16:29Z Trioxin_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-02T22:17:25Z orthecreedence quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-02T22:20:18Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-02T22:20:37Z wheelsucker quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-02T22:21:08Z average: jackdaniel: I'm curious how you'll use this in business projects how you can make money with ECL 2015-04-02T22:22:04Z pjb: average: http://blog.texmexconsulting.com/clients-do-not-pay-you-for-the-code/ 2015-04-02T22:22:14Z average: pjb: no I understand.. 2015-04-02T22:22:32Z average: but the idea of owning a product and building a business around it and services around it .. this fascinates me 2015-04-02T22:22:36Z average: I do think about this often 2015-04-02T22:22:40Z average: and that's why I was asking 2015-04-02T22:23:07Z pjb: average: just find a customer with a problem, and invoice him to solve his problem. He should not care what language and what implementation you use, as long as his problem is solved. 2015-04-02T22:23:17Z jackdaniel: well, i doesn't reject idea of consultancy, but i treat ecl more like something I'd like to work on and use by myself 2015-04-02T22:23:27Z pjb: average: then you can use ecl to make money in a business project. 2015-04-02T22:23:28Z average: pjb: yes 2015-04-02T22:23:59Z jackdaniel: what pjb says is in line with my own opinion - in that matter I can make money with ecl help 2015-04-02T22:24:34Z Slothel: jackdaniel: You said you haven't had time to make a webpage for ECL? Perhaps just to get my feet wet I could build a simple one for you? 2015-04-02T22:24:42Z jackdaniel: I plan to put flattr button on webpage, but only for paying for domain and server, eventaully to support other projects 2015-04-02T22:25:25Z jackdaniel: Slothel: if it's good, why not? i was planning to do it in weblocks - really enjoyed learning this framework 2015-04-02T22:25:35Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-02T22:25:57Z jackdaniel: but is it something you want to hack on? we are good with site we have now (on sf + ecl), so no rush with it 2015-04-02T22:26:18Z jackdaniel: but it's surely a nice thing to have (a good looking webpage) 2015-04-02T22:27:02Z Slothel: jackdaniel: I'd prefer to work on the actual program I just don't believe I know enough lisp yet, but I'm quite comfortable with web design 2015-04-02T22:27:21Z Slothel: jackdaniel: I'll just build one over the weekend and send it to you perhaps, you can look over and see if it's good for your needs 2015-04-02T22:27:25Z jackdaniel: Slothel: grab an issue and dig ;) 2015-04-02T22:28:00Z jackdaniel: don't do webpage, i think best thing you can do is to actually improve on code 2015-04-02T22:28:14Z jackdaniel: on src/lsp directory there are pure lisp common-lisp building blocks 2015-04-02T22:28:47Z jackdaniel: and on src/c there are pure c building blocks 2015-04-02T22:29:15Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-04-02T22:30:01Z jackdaniel: if I could suggest something, https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/19 (upgrading asdf) should be fairly easy 2015-04-02T22:30:11Z Slothel: jackdaniel: Gotcha. I'll give this a shot over the weekend (at work now) but this failure to build on ubuntu seems interesting 2015-04-02T22:30:15Z Slothel: jackdaniel: Oh and that one too! 2015-04-02T22:30:39Z jackdaniel: there is quite recent commit of previous update by stassats 2015-04-02T22:30:39Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-02T22:30:49Z jackdaniel: so you can check, how was it actually done 2015-04-02T22:31:38Z jasom: jackdaniel: I have a love/hate relationship with weblocks 2015-04-02T22:31:57Z jackdaniel: jasom: why so? 2015-04-02T22:32:16Z jasom: it does some things really well, but so much if it is buggy as hell 2015-04-02T22:32:27Z jasom: and documentation is non-existant, and finding help was nearly impossible 2015-04-02T22:33:04Z jackdaniel: hmm, google-groups came in handy. And when I've actually found, what is wrong with my code I corrected wiki 2015-04-02T22:33:17Z jackdaniel: but it's true, documentation needs loads of improvement 2015-04-02T22:33:24Z jasom: there's a wiki? 2015-04-02T22:33:29Z jackdaniel: yes, on trac 2015-04-02T22:33:39Z jackdaniel: its referred on their site (tab documentation) 2015-04-02T22:33:57Z jackdaniel: and there is documentation skeleton, but needs work as I already said 2015-04-02T22:34:15Z jackdaniel: https://trac.common-lisp.net/cl-weblocks/wiki 2015-04-02T22:34:19Z jasom: I see the 3 links at "Welcome to Weblocks" but didn't realize it was a wiki 2015-04-02T22:34:40Z grant- joined #lisp 2015-04-02T22:34:43Z jackdaniel: and bugs are slowly squashed (at least judging from my shallow look at commits) 2015-04-02T22:34:48Z jasom: I guess those are the only 3 pages 2015-04-02T22:34:58Z jackdaniel: yes 2015-04-02T22:35:01Z Pastaf joined #lisp 2015-04-02T22:35:08Z clop joined #lisp 2015-04-02T22:35:29Z jackdaniel: and only first i've found valuable (only really babysteps, more elaborate examples are on doc) 2015-04-02T22:35:48Z jackdaniel: http://weblocks-framework.info/documentation (here) 2015-04-02T22:36:00Z jackdaniel: sorry, here: http://weblocks-framework.info/pub/user-guide.stx.html 2015-04-02T22:36:41Z grant- is now known as {0}grant 2015-04-02T22:37:08Z steelbird quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-02T22:37:21Z jasom: jackdaniel: here's my experience with the google group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/weblocks/709hI1uxBgg 2015-04-02T22:37:53Z jasom: 1) I report a bug; 2) I track the issue down 3 weeks later, 3) 3 weeks after that o_z comments on it with "Yes, we should fix that and also we should have tests for that" 2015-04-02T22:38:30Z average: jasom: and is that good/bad ? 2015-04-02T22:39:08Z jasom: It wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that I encountered at least 6 bugs in the month I was using it. 2015-04-02T22:39:32Z jackdaniel: there is many good projects starving from lack of devs unfortunately 2015-04-02T22:39:38Z jasom: indeed 2015-04-02T22:40:10Z jasom: The level of "magic" was just a little bit too high for me in weblocks as well; I'm more comfortable having to generate javascript and html myself and know what is going on 2015-04-02T22:40:39Z jasom: If it were just macros, it wouldn't be so bad, but it ends up being something like a macro that invokes a continuation that calls a generic function that invokes a closure or something like that 2015-04-02T22:40:49Z jasom: which makes following the dataflow throught the code a bit of a nightmare 2015-04-02T22:41:20Z bcoburn_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-02T22:41:31Z jasom: I can't do it with just macroexpand and M-. 2015-04-02T22:42:03Z jackdaniel: heh, this is annoying 2015-04-02T22:42:04Z jasom: and the generic function probably has about 6 methods that are used for that one call with all the inheritence it uses 2015-04-02T22:42:41Z jackdaniel: but, that said, I really enjoy it (: but I know understand your love/hate statement clearly 2015-04-02T22:42:57Z jackdaniel: s/know/now/ 2015-04-02T22:43:27Z jackdaniel: I'm out to bed, it's 1am here now, and I'm used to go sleep like 22 2015-04-02T22:43:40Z jackdaniel: goodnight all \o 2015-04-02T22:46:08Z Baggers joined #lisp 2015-04-02T22:48:22Z emaczen: jasom: Can you put parenscriptx in quicklisp? 2015-04-02T22:49:05Z {0}grant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T22:49:20Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-04-02T22:49:52Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-04-02T22:50:56Z jasom: emaczen: ask Xach; I don't mind. I probably need to slap a license on it though 2015-04-02T22:50:59Z mood: drmeister: The two last sentences in your abstract, both starting with "This facility", are a little confusing to me. Do they both refer to the same "facility"? (Probably yes) Perhaps replace the second with "It could also..." ? 2015-04-02T22:51:31Z jasom: emaczen: oh, I have it in the .asd file at least, let me add a license.txt file in there as well 2015-04-02T22:51:33Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-02T22:51:41Z {0}grant joined #lisp 2015-04-02T22:51:47Z emaczen: What's the process of adding to quicklisp? 2015-04-02T22:52:22Z Bicyclidine: you submit an issue to quicklisp-projects on github. 2015-04-02T22:52:31Z pjb: write an asdf system, put on http://gitlab.com and request on the quicklisp mailling list. 2015-04-02T22:52:40Z pjb: or perhaps quicklisp-projects. 2015-04-02T22:52:48Z jlongste` is now known as jlongster 2015-04-02T22:53:00Z Bicyclidine: well, it's what i did, anyway. i'm too much of a young'n for mailing lists. 2015-04-02T22:53:01Z Bicyclidine: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues 2015-04-02T22:53:45Z That_Engineer joined #lisp 2015-04-02T22:54:40Z That_Engineer quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-02T22:55:20Z emaczen: jasom: Are you going to submit it to quicklisp or did you want me to? 2015-04-02T22:55:37Z jasom: emaczen: If you could do it, that would be great. 2015-04-02T22:55:55Z emaczen: Sure 2015-04-02T22:56:07Z emaczen: I might not get to it for a day or so 2015-04-02T22:56:18Z jasom: note also that it does break cl-who if you were planning on generating any html tags that start with a star. 2015-04-02T22:56:48Z jasom: I figure that's a reasonable limitation though. 2015-04-02T22:57:03Z jasom: emaczen: fine I won't get to it until at least after Easter, most likely 2015-04-02T22:58:29Z emaczen: how long does it take to get added? 2015-04-02T22:58:39Z a2015 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T22:59:08Z jasom: emaczen: next release of quicklisp 2015-04-02T22:59:32Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-02T23:01:21Z jasom: seems to be every month or two that a new dist comes out 2015-04-02T23:02:47Z s1n4 joined #lisp 2015-04-02T23:07:41Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-02T23:07:52Z jlongster quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-02T23:09:10Z emaczen: jasom: where can I read about how "templating" libraries work. Using html lists as an example, how does the browser know to reparse the DOM? 2015-04-02T23:09:29Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-02T23:14:01Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-02T23:20:22Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-04-02T23:25:44Z Xach: almost always every month 2015-04-02T23:25:59Z Xach: i missed a month once in four years. 2015-04-02T23:26:10Z Xach: when i first started i thought things might come out every six months. hah! 2015-04-02T23:26:28Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-02T23:26:30Z Shinmera: CL turned out to be more popular and active than expected. 2015-04-02T23:26:34Z Baggers: Does anyone here know if the FSet library is persistent as well as being immutable? 2015-04-02T23:27:10Z Xach: the change list for april is pretty big, too 2015-04-02T23:27:22Z Xach is gathering stats about new projects and updates for his ELS talk 2015-04-02T23:30:21Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-02T23:31:06Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-02T23:31:26Z bcoburn joined #lisp 2015-04-02T23:31:53Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-02T23:31:58Z s1n4 quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-02T23:33:11Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-02T23:33:19Z steelbird joined #lisp 2015-04-02T23:33:43Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-02T23:36:39Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-04-02T23:36:58Z jasom: emaczen: in the case of React, it uses a virtual DOM 2015-04-02T23:37:35Z jasom: emaczen: and then it diffs the virtual DOM with what it last updated and only updates the DOM with the difference 2015-04-02T23:37:47Z jasom: emaczen: this is good because DOM updates are expensive in the browser 2015-04-02T23:39:37Z pacon joined #lisp 2015-04-02T23:40:38Z jasom: emaczen: React is *very* different from a typical DOM templating library (like say Mustache) 2015-04-02T23:41:15Z electrojustin joined #lisp 2015-04-02T23:41:32Z jasom: emaczen: and when you do a (set-state ...) it will re-run all of the necessary render functions, and diff it with what it last installed in the DOM 2015-04-02T23:41:56Z jasom: then it patches the DOM to make it like what you just rendered. This makes it feel a lot more declarative (which I like) 2015-04-02T23:42:20Z mateuszb joined #lisp 2015-04-02T23:43:38Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-02T23:44:00Z pacon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-02T23:44:03Z emaczen: jasom: thanks, I'll keep going through the tutorial and reading about templating 2015-04-02T23:44:30Z pacon joined #lisp 2015-04-02T23:45:28Z jasom: Ideally your render function is a pure-function on the state and props of the element; they have a mixin for that specific case. That works particularly well if you use an immutable data-structure library of some sort (it does only a simple === on each child of the state, not a deep walk). 2015-04-02T23:47:58Z electrojustin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-02T23:50:37Z {0}grant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T23:51:35Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-02T23:51:59Z {0}grant joined #lisp 2015-04-02T23:53:43Z bcoburn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-02T23:54:37Z electrojustin joined #lisp 2015-04-02T23:55:58Z keen___ joined #lisp 2015-04-02T23:56:26Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-02T23:57:33Z keen__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-02T23:58:59Z steelbird quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-02T23:59:08Z mateuszb quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-02T23:59:38Z mateuszb joined #lisp 2015-04-02T23:59:52Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-04-03T00:00:49Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-04-03T00:02:22Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-03T00:03:09Z mateuszb quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-03T00:04:18Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-04-03T00:06:16Z kaiyin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-03T00:06:26Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-03T00:08:52Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-03T00:12:38Z gklimowi_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T00:16:01Z gklimowicz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-03T00:21:51Z average: remember we were talking about ninjas and superheros ? 2015-04-03T00:22:17Z average: well, here's the new trend for recruiters who want to hire (maybe..) 2015-04-03T00:22:17Z average: http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/7154-what-our-office-learned-working-naked-for-one-month-ironically-nsfw- 2015-04-03T00:22:22Z average: working naked 2015-04-03T00:22:41Z average: maybe soon, recruiters will look for "Naked Lisp programmers (men and women)" 2015-04-03T00:23:54Z remi`bd: :o 2015-04-03T00:23:58Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-03T00:24:02Z average: remi`bd: yes, it's shocking 2015-04-03T00:24:12Z average: it's shocking and it takes out of your everyday life 2015-04-03T00:24:25Z average: write Lisp naked in an office, along with tons of other people 2015-04-03T00:24:32Z average: sounds like a good idea ? 2015-04-03T00:24:42Z average: Zhivago: yo, what's your take on this ? ^^ 2015-04-03T00:24:44Z Xach: average: please discuss such things elsewhere 2015-04-03T00:25:15Z average: jeez.. now I got caught by the off-topic police .. 2015-04-03T00:25:34Z average: Xach: so office, what seems to be the problem ? 2015-04-03T00:25:37Z average: *officer 2015-04-03T00:26:17Z Xach: Go away. 2015-04-03T00:26:19Z bcoburn joined #lisp 2015-04-03T00:27:07Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-04-03T00:27:49Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-03T00:30:57Z Adlai: you know what trend would hire me? 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2015-04-03T02:37:37Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-03T02:42:48Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-03T02:43:28Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T02:53:16Z someon is now known as someone 2015-04-03T02:53:53Z jasom: emaczen: back 2015-04-03T02:54:25Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T02:59:13Z electrojustin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-03T03:00:03Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-03T03:02:33Z electrojustin joined #lisp 2015-04-03T03:04:40Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-04-03T03:06:15Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-03T03:08:39Z moei joined #lisp 2015-04-03T03:09:09Z moei quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-03T03:11:01Z eschatologist quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-04-03T03:11:01Z moei joined #lisp 2015-04-03T03:12:19Z beach joined #lisp 2015-04-03T03:12:27Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-04-03T03:12:29Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-04-03T03:13:29Z gklimowicz quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-04-03T03:14:43Z emaczen: jasom: So I added your changes from your PR into my parenscript src 2015-04-03T03:14:53Z emaczen: I got all my code to compile 2015-04-03T03:15:04Z emaczen: and I followed the loop example you gave me 2015-04-03T03:15:28Z emaczen: Now, when I try to visit a page hosted on my local server, I am getting this error: The variable PARENSCRIPT::*PSW-STREAM* is unbound. 2015-04-03T03:15:37Z jasom: that's odd 2015-04-03T03:16:26Z emaczen: what should it be bound to? 2015-04-03T03:16:51Z jasom: parenscript should be binding it 2015-04-03T03:17:42Z jasom: what about just (ps:ps (lambda () (parenscriptx:htm (:foo (:bar))))) 2015-04-03T03:18:57Z emaczen: where does that go? 2015-04-03T03:19:01Z jasom: or better yet (ps:ps (lambda () (parenscriptx:htm (:foo (parenscriptx:{ bar))))) 2015-04-03T03:19:10Z jasom: it should just return a string 2015-04-03T03:19:28Z jasom: just run it in the repl with parenscriptx loaded 2015-04-03T03:19:51Z emaczen: YEah, give me a second, I just restarted lisp as a desparate attempt to get things working... 2015-04-03T03:20:52Z jasom: I gotta put my kid to sleep, back in about 20... 2015-04-03T03:21:04Z emaczen: jasom: sure, and both of those forms work. 2015-04-03T03:25:07Z beach: jackdaniel: Around? 2015-04-03T03:25:20Z average: anyone here want $10 on digitalocean ? 2015-04-03T03:26:29Z beach: jackdaniel: I visited the gitlab site for ECL, but it is not obvious to me how to report problems. 2015-04-03T03:28:44Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-03T03:29:05Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-03T03:35:23Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-03T03:36:03Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-04-03T03:38:28Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-03T03:38:41Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-04-03T03:43:35Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-03T03:45:15Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T03:45:30Z rszeno1 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T03:45:42Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-03T03:45:45Z rszeno1 quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-03T03:46:19Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-03T03:46:34Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-04-03T03:47:15Z pjb: beach: you need to enter in the repository to create an issue: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues 2015-04-03T03:47:36Z pjb: embeddable-common-lisp is a project, ecl is the repository in the project. 2015-04-03T03:53:45Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-04-03T03:54:59Z electrojustin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-03T03:55:09Z beach: I still don't see how to add an issue. 2015-04-03T03:55:46Z pjb: top right, there's a big green "+ New Issue" button. 2015-04-03T03:56:16Z pjb: in https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues 2015-04-03T03:56:16Z beach: No, there is a big green button saying Sign in 2015-04-03T03:56:33Z pjb: Right, you need to log in gitlab first. 2015-04-03T03:57:03Z beach: That's what I needed to know. I don't know that I have an account there. 2015-04-03T03:57:07Z {0}grant: Oh wow, there's actually relevant CL being hosted on Gitlab. 2015-04-03T03:57:08Z {0}grant: :^) 2015-04-03T03:57:12Z jasom will poke around for a moment in the parenscript code 2015-04-03T03:57:41Z pjb: {0}grant: all the repositories that were on gitorious.org had to migrate to gitlab.com since the later bought the former. 2015-04-03T03:57:56Z jasom: emaczen: you are outputting it with a ps:ps? 2015-04-03T03:58:18Z jasom: emaczen: and did you import parenscriptx:{ to your package? 2015-04-03T03:58:30Z emaczen: jasom: I'm following your example 2015-04-03T03:58:41Z emaczen: I have this: (:ol 2015-04-03T03:58:41Z emaczen: ({ 2015-04-03T03:58:41Z emaczen: (loop for stock in stock-list colect 2015-04-03T03:58:41Z emaczen: (htm (:li (str stock)))))) 2015-04-03T03:58:46Z emaczen: sorry for the paste... 2015-04-03T03:58:49Z pjb: use http://paste.lisp.org/new 2015-04-03T03:58:54Z {0}grant: pjb: Well, "had" -- there wasn't any automigration that I'm aware of. But yeah, bummer that there was/is a forced move from Gitorious. 2015-04-03T03:59:12Z emaczen: jasom: Let me make a paste 2015-04-03T04:01:27Z jasom: emaczen: oh, it has to go inside a parenscript expression 2015-04-03T04:02:05Z emaczen: jasom: you didn't put anything inside of a (ps ...) form in the example you sent. 2015-04-03T04:02:25Z jasom: emaczen: that's because it was something from the middle of my code 2015-04-03T04:02:43Z jasom: so (ps: (htm (:ol ... 2015-04-03T04:02:50Z jasom: er (ps (htm (:ol ... 2015-04-03T04:03:19Z jasom: you were asking about using a javascript array, so I assumed you were already running parenscript 2015-04-03T04:04:10Z emaczen: jasom: I just started, and I've only gotten a few things to work. 2015-04-03T04:04:35Z jasom: ah 2015-04-03T04:05:17Z jasom: well in the middle of parenscript code, parenscriptx lets you do (htm ...) 2015-04-03T04:05:38Z jasom: that's all it does; as you can see it's less than 40 lines of code 2015-04-03T04:05:40Z emaczen: It's now telling me that it doesn't like the collect, and it says it is expecting a ps-loop keyword 2015-04-03T04:06:30Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/+358D. -- here is a paste, note that I put a (pos (htm ...)) at the top of (with-filter-sort-panel) 2015-04-03T04:08:20Z jasom: (ps:ps (lambda () (parenscriptx:htm (:foo (parenscriptx:{ bar))))) 2015-04-03T04:08:25Z jasom: whoops, wrong thing 2015-04-03T04:08:53Z steelbird joined #lisp 2015-04-03T04:09:12Z jasom: (ps:ps (parenscriptx:htm (:ul (parenscriptx:{ (loop for item in (ps:array 1 2 3) collect (htm (:li item))))))) 2015-04-03T04:10:15Z emaczen: ahhh, I am using (:use ...) in my defpackage and am including both :parenscript and parenscriptx 2015-04-03T04:10:25Z jasom: that's fine 2015-04-03T04:10:26Z emaczen: perhaps the symbols are getting mangled and it doesn't know which htm to use? 2015-04-03T04:10:28Z jasom: you misspelled collect 2015-04-03T04:10:39Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-04-03T04:10:41Z jasom: 2 #\l in collect not 1 2015-04-03T04:13:41Z jasom: I actually forgot the package specifier on my last htm; I was trying to make something that would work regardless of the package setup 2015-04-03T04:13:48Z emaczen: jasom: now it tells me that "stock" is unbound 2015-04-03T04:14:17Z emaczen: stock-list is parenscript variable that is initialized to nil, and later set when the user clicks a button 2015-04-03T04:14:18Z jasom: but its better to (:use parenscript parenscriptx cl-who) 2015-04-03T04:14:24Z jasom: oh 2015-04-03T04:14:29Z jasom: no (str on stock 2015-04-03T04:14:33Z jasom: ({ stock) 2015-04-03T04:14:46Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-04-03T04:14:49Z jasom: you want to evaluate stock as a javascript expression, not as a lisp variable 2015-04-03T04:15:59Z emaczen: Thanks! It is compiling! 2015-04-03T04:16:22Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-03T04:16:22Z jasom: and you'll need to use a JSX transformer; there are instructions on the react site for setting it up that way. 2015-04-03T04:17:25Z jasom: https://facebook.github.io/react/docs/getting-started.html <-- see the code block there 2015-04-03T04:19:14Z beach: pjb: I made myself an account on GitLab. It wasn't obvious that I needed one to report an issue. 2015-04-03T04:19:20Z beach: pjb: Thanks. 2015-04-03T04:19:47Z pjb: Unfortunately, nowadays all the web services require identification of their users :-( 2015-04-03T04:19:59Z beach: I see, yes. 2015-04-03T04:20:15Z jasom: emaczen: anyway I gotta go now; feel free to pm me if you have any issues 2015-04-03T04:20:24Z emaczen: pm? 2015-04-03T04:20:27Z beach: pjb: Out of curiosity, how is GitLab financed, given that they have unlimited private repositories? 2015-04-03T04:20:30Z jasom: emaczen: private messag 2015-04-03T04:20:37Z emaczen: jasom: thanks! 2015-04-03T04:20:54Z pjb: beach: they're like github.COM, they propose private repositories to corporations. 2015-04-03T04:21:01Z jasom: I won't respond unitl about 12h from now, most likely, so if you ask in here I'll miss it 2015-04-03T04:21:32Z beach: pjb: I see. I was asking because GitHub makes individuals pay for private accounts too. 2015-04-03T04:21:39Z jasom: and note to self: create the hello-world example from the react webpage as the first example for psx 2015-04-03T04:22:05Z emaczen: Alright, sounds like a plan 2015-04-03T04:22:15Z pjb: beach: https://about.gitlab.com/ 2015-04-03T04:22:37Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-03T04:22:49Z beach: pjb: Thanks. 2015-04-03T04:23:57Z zyaku quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-03T04:25:11Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-04-03T04:25:49Z alusion quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-03T04:32:25Z steelbird quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-03T04:33:24Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T04:35:32Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-04-03T04:38:34Z Niac quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-03T04:39:12Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-03T04:40:08Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-03T04:40:31Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-03T04:43:53Z hapislacker quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T04:46:31Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-03T04:46:31Z cojy_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-03T04:46:36Z faheem_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-03T04:46:53Z ggherdov quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-03T04:47:14Z rvirding quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-03T04:47:15Z aksatac quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-03T04:47:55Z pjb: clhs ~/ 2015-04-03T04:47:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ced.htm 2015-04-03T04:48:03Z zacts: hi lispy people 2015-04-03T04:48:10Z zacts: aka. lispers 2015-04-03T04:48:19Z pjb: hi 2015-04-03T04:48:46Z zacts: will learning common lisp help me with skills needed to extend emacs? 2015-04-03T04:48:58Z pjb: Definitely. 2015-04-03T04:49:03Z zacts: I know emacs has a common lisp emulation layer, that is somewhat complete? 2015-04-03T04:49:10Z zacts: cool 2015-04-03T04:49:15Z pjb: No, it's rather incomplete and deficient. 2015-04-03T04:49:20Z zacts: oh, I see 2015-04-03T04:49:24Z pjb: However, elisp and CL are still quite close, being both lisp-2. 2015-04-03T04:49:26Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-03T04:49:34Z zacts: but learning common lisp would still help with the concepts needed to grok elisp? 2015-04-03T04:49:44Z rvirding joined #lisp 2015-04-03T04:49:45Z pjb: Learning CL, you will be exposed to better programs, than what is often found written in elisp. 2015-04-03T04:49:51Z faheem_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T04:50:14Z pjb: Definitely, learning CL is good to learn programming concepts that are applicable in a lot of other programming language, and foremost in elisp. 2015-04-03T04:50:16Z zacts: because the only real resources I see for ELisp are: the ELisp reference, the O'Reilly extending gnu emacs book, the O'Reilly intro to emacs book, the intro to elisp texinfo book. 2015-04-03T04:50:17Z drmeister joined #lisp 2015-04-03T04:50:28Z cojy_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T04:50:33Z pjb: There's also a book about writing major modes for emacs. 2015-04-03T04:50:46Z zacts: most of the above are either references, or beginning level only, with no explanation on the design of lisp programs 2015-04-03T04:50:54Z pjb: But indeed, you will find a lot more material using CL, to learn programming. 2015-04-03T04:50:59Z zacts: cool 2015-04-03T04:51:24Z aksatac joined #lisp 2015-04-03T04:51:29Z pjb: That said, you will also have to learn emac lisp "library", ie. all the data structures specific to emacs: buffers, frames, windows, etc. 2015-04-03T04:51:38Z zacts: yeah, that's fine 2015-04-03T04:51:44Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-04-03T04:51:48Z zacts: I mainly feel I want to learn the design of programs 2015-04-03T04:51:58Z zacts: in a way that I can directly apply to emacs lisp 2015-04-03T04:52:03Z zacts: I know how to read a reference manual 2015-04-03T04:52:06Z pjb: You will indeed be better able to do that using CL material. 2015-04-03T04:52:18Z pjb: Check http://cliki.net/Online+Tutorial 2015-04-03T04:52:22Z zacts: cool, so CL may actually be a better medium for learning program design, than explicitly elisp 2015-04-03T04:52:23Z zacts: ? 2015-04-03T04:52:27Z zacts: oh cool 2015-04-03T04:52:35Z pjb: eg. Casting Spells is good to learn macros. 2015-04-03T04:52:39Z zacts: pjb: I did recently get a few common lisp books 2015-04-03T04:52:57Z zacts: I got: The Land of Lisp 2015-04-03T04:53:22Z pjb: The clisp and the allegro tutorial (Implementation "provided" tutorials) are very nice (and not that implementation specific), because they're short. 2015-04-03T04:53:26Z zacts: practical common lisp (the latest print edition) 2015-04-03T04:53:41Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T04:53:42Z zacts: and whatever that intro lisp book that is recommended here 2015-04-03T04:53:46Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T04:53:49Z pjb: Land of Lisp is a little special. 2015-04-03T04:53:50Z zacts: (that's all I have now though, nothing on CLOS or anything) 2015-04-03T04:54:03Z pjb: zacts: PCL is often recommended to programmers. 2015-04-03T04:54:04Z zacts: cool, I'll start with the tutorials I guess? 2015-04-03T04:54:13Z zacts: pjb: I wouldn't call myself a programmer yet 2015-04-03T04:54:25Z zacts: I have many gaps in my knowledge, for sure 2015-04-03T04:54:34Z pjb: If you need beginnger material, the Gentle Introduction… is very nice. 2015-04-03T04:54:38Z zacts: that's the one I got 2015-04-03T04:54:43Z zacts: I actually have a physical book of that 2015-04-03T04:55:02Z zacts: so I own three actual lisp books. 2015-04-03T04:55:13Z zacts: I just need a map for the order to do them. 2015-04-03T04:55:20Z pjb: Looks like you're all set then. 2015-04-03T04:55:29Z pjb: Have you installed a CL implementation, quicklisp and slime? 2015-04-03T04:55:32Z pjb: and paredit? 2015-04-03T04:55:36Z zacts: I have sbcl 2015-04-03T04:55:40Z zacts: I did install slime from melpa 2015-04-03T04:55:49Z zacts: I don't know what quicklisp is 2015-04-03T04:55:54Z zacts: I haven't taught myself paredit yet 2015-04-03T04:55:55Z pjb: http://www.quicklisp.org/ 2015-04-03T04:55:57Z zacts: but I hear it's cool 2015-04-03T04:55:58Z zacts: oh yeah 2015-04-03T04:56:01Z pjb: is where we get our libraries from. 2015-04-03T04:56:02Z zacts: I used quicklisp to install stumpwm 2015-04-03T04:56:06Z pjb: good. 2015-04-03T04:56:10Z zacts: is that enough for quicklisp? 2015-04-03T04:56:11Z average quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-03T04:56:16Z pjb: Yes. 2015-04-03T04:56:19Z zacts: oh cool! 2015-04-03T04:56:36Z pjb: WHen you want a library (called "system" in CL), you do (ql:quickload "system-name") 2015-04-03T04:56:46Z zacts: oh ok 2015-04-03T04:56:54Z pjb: (ql:quickload "alexandria") (ql:quickload "split-sequence") etc. 2015-04-03T04:56:55Z zacts: does practical common lisp explain quicklisp at all? 2015-04-03T04:57:05Z pjb: No it was written before quicklisp. 2015-04-03T04:57:08Z zacts: oh 2015-04-03T04:57:19Z pjb: Extraordinarily, things evolve in CL world! :-) 2015-04-03T04:57:30Z zacts: hm.. ok. so pjb online tutorials -> gentle intro -> land of lisp -> practical common lisp? 2015-04-03T04:57:40Z pjb: Yes. 2015-04-03T04:57:44Z zacts: and then CLOS -> art of the metaobject protocol? 2015-04-03T04:57:49Z pjb: Yes. 2015-04-03T04:57:56Z zacts: coolio 2015-04-03T04:57:57Z zacts: thanks man 2015-04-03T04:58:30Z pjb: Now, elisp has a simili-CLOS (eieio): you can use defclass, defmethod, but it is very limited: single inheritance, method dispatch only on the first argument. 2015-04-03T04:58:43Z zacts: ok 2015-04-03T04:58:55Z pjb: So AMOP will be overkill for emacs programming (not applicable), but it's still very interesting. 2015-04-03T04:59:11Z zacts: yeah, well I do want to learn Common Lisp for common lisp's sake too 2015-04-03T04:59:12Z zacts: :-) 2015-04-03T04:59:23Z average joined #lisp 2015-04-03T04:59:27Z zacts: but, I do have some project ideas for emacs I wanted to try out too 2015-04-03T04:59:31Z pjb: Good. 2015-04-03T04:59:47Z average: hah, emacs is super-fun 2015-04-03T04:59:49Z guthur quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-03T04:59:51Z average: but takes a lot of time to configure 2015-04-03T04:59:56Z pjb: zacts: now, there's a CL implementation written in emacs lisp, and targetting emacs lisp: emacs-cl. 2015-04-03T05:00:07Z beach: zacts: don't forget PAIP by Peter Norvig. 2015-04-03T05:00:15Z zacts: beach: what is PAIP? 2015-04-03T05:00:25Z pjb: Unfortunately, so far, it has not been updated for emacs-24 taking advantage of lexical binding newly introduced in emacs. 2015-04-03T05:00:36Z beach: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. 2015-04-03T05:00:43Z beach: By Peter Norvig. 2015-04-03T05:00:49Z zacts: oh cool! I'll check it out beach 2015-04-03T05:00:53Z beach: It is not an AI book. It is a Common Lisp book. 2015-04-03T05:00:56Z zacts: oh 2015-04-03T05:01:02Z zacts: so it teaches common lisp more than AI concepts? 2015-04-03T05:01:09Z beach: Yes. 2015-04-03T05:01:10Z pjb: Yes. 2015-04-03T05:01:13Z zacts: neat 2015-04-03T05:01:16Z guthur joined #lisp 2015-04-03T05:01:25Z ggherdov joined #lisp 2015-04-03T05:01:30Z pjb: AIMA teaches the AI concepts. PAIP teaches lisp programming (using nice classical AI programs, but it's subsidiary). 2015-04-03T05:02:16Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-04-03T05:02:26Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-03T05:02:50Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-03T05:03:01Z beach: In SICL I have many "modules". A module typically implements some standard Common Lisp features. A module typically defines a package, say SICL-LOOP. In a native setting, I want this package to just :USE the COMMON-LISP package. But in a setting where I want to test my module in a different host, I want the package with the same name to shadow certain symbols. 2015-04-03T05:03:05Z beach: So I want two different ASDF systems, say SICL-LOOP and SICL-LOOP-TEST that can be mutually exclusive. I want the two systems to contain the same files except that I want the -TEST system to use the version of the package that shadows symbols. How should I organize my ASDF systems? 2015-04-03T05:03:09Z zacts: oh and so which lisp implementations are most common, I know of SBCL. I only care mostly about X86_64 hw right now 2015-04-03T05:03:26Z beach: zacts: That is what most people here would recommend. 2015-04-03T05:03:30Z zacts: ah ok 2015-04-03T05:03:41Z zacts: cool 2015-04-03T05:03:42Z beach: zacts: But please do install everything with Quicklisp, including SLIME. 2015-04-03T05:03:48Z {0}grant: zacts: I think Emacs is the only reason I tend to side on the side of Maclisp over Scheme-derived Lisps, tbh. I could really even blame/thank Emacs for me not being in art-school atm. 2015-04-03T05:03:53Z zacts: oh even SLIME with quicklisp? 2015-04-03T05:03:54Z zacts: I used melpa 2015-04-03T05:03:56Z pjb: beach: first system uses packages.lisp test-system uses packages-test.lisp 2015-04-03T05:04:20Z zacts: should I deinstall SLIME from melpa, and then use quicklisp for this? 2015-04-03T05:04:28Z beach: pjb: Yes, and how do I avoid repeating all the other files in the two systems? 2015-04-03T05:05:03Z pjb: beach: that said, my test systems has test files that defines a test-package that uses the normal package (and import some internal symbols tool). 2015-04-03T05:05:10Z beach: pjb: I want to respect the OAOO principle. 2015-04-03T05:06:47Z beach: zacts: I guess you could wait until you experience problems. 2015-04-03T05:07:01Z zacts: beach: well, I would rather learn how to do it cleanly from the beginning 2015-04-03T05:07:09Z zacts: in fact I don't even have much in my .emacs.d 2015-04-03T05:07:18Z zacts: so I wouldn't mind just rm -r .emacs.d 2015-04-03T05:07:29Z zacts: and starting over, while keeping my .emacs/init.el 2015-04-03T05:07:35Z pjb: Good question. There's no notion of "virtual" system like there are virtual package in debian or gentoo. You could define a system for the files, that couldn't be loaded because it would not have the package defined, and two systems, to load a package system and the files system. 2015-04-03T05:08:20Z pjb: zacts: my advice would be to use the slime provided with quicklisp, so yes. 2015-04-03T05:08:40Z beach: pjb: So how do all these systems depend on the others? 2015-04-03T05:09:03Z pjb: sys -> (package files); sys-test -> (package-test files) 2015-04-03T05:09:14Z pjb: There's a problem: the order is not imposed. 2015-04-03T05:09:20Z beach: Exactly. 2015-04-03T05:09:53Z pjb: Couldn't you use a *feature* to conditionalize the :shadow clause of defpackage? 2015-04-03T05:10:13Z zacts: ok, I'm going to do this 2015-04-03T05:10:34Z futpib quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-03T05:10:35Z beach: pjb: Never thought about it. It might work. 2015-04-03T05:10:52Z pjb: beach: notice that you can also define all the systems in the same asd file, so you can have fun with eval-when and #. 2015-04-03T05:11:37Z beach: pjb: Sure. I'll give it some thought. 2015-04-03T05:13:08Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-03T05:13:11Z pjb: But again, it might be much simplier to define separate test packages. 2015-04-03T05:14:20Z beach: I think one requirement would be for the test-related stuff not to be visible in the native stuff. 2015-04-03T05:14:49Z beach: So I want a "natural"-looking system definition and package definition for the native case. 2015-04-03T05:14:49Z pjb: Indeed. 2015-04-03T05:14:51Z zacts: I wonder if NASA still uses lisp 2015-04-03T05:15:25Z average: zacts: what did they use it for in the past ? 2015-04-03T05:15:30Z beach: zacts: Organizations don't use programming languages. Individuals do. In this case it was Ron Garret. 2015-04-03T05:15:43Z beach: Formerly, Eran Gatt. 2015-04-03T05:15:49Z pjb: beach: you have a normal system defining the normal package; then you make a test-system defining a test package that use and/or import things to be tested from the normal package, and define the test stuff in the test package. 2015-04-03T05:15:51Z zacts: ah, thanks for the correction beach 2015-04-03T05:15:52Z zacts: :-) 2015-04-03T05:16:28Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-03T05:16:29Z zacts: average: I can't remember, but I read something about NASA utilized Lisp for some projects 2015-04-03T05:16:46Z beach: pjb: Right, but again, I want to avoid duplicating the list of components. 2015-04-03T05:17:10Z pjb: If you do as I said, you don't duplicate the components: the test system depends on the normal system. 2015-04-03T05:17:17Z pjb: globally. 2015-04-03T05:17:32Z average: zacts: I've seen a few here http://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html 2015-04-03T05:17:50Z beach: zacts: I am telling you this because one easily gets confused if one thinks of an organization as having policies or desires. My wife works for a big company, and looking at the ideas that come out of it, it is easy to brand it as schizophrenic. 2015-04-03T05:17:51Z {0}grant: beach: Well, depending, some organzations outside of the realm of a programmer ... could, use say Lisp via a DSL, via non-programmers. But yes, this is not common. Relevant to the organization, most of the time, programming language is irrelevant -- it's the end product of what such a lang and said developers which shape it, make, that's important. 2015-04-03T05:18:00Z pjb: beach: you may have a look at https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/tree/master/clext for an example. 2015-04-03T05:18:06Z zacts: beach: ah yeah 2015-04-03T05:18:21Z pjb: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/clext/com.informatimago.clext.test.asd 2015-04-03T05:18:47Z beach: pjb: OK, thanks. 2015-04-03T05:19:20Z {0}grant: beach: Well organzations due have desires. A for-profit organization desires to stay in business or sell-out for a profitable fee. 2015-04-03T05:19:24Z {0}grant: do have( 2015-04-03T05:19:27Z {0}grant: ** 2015-04-03T05:19:30Z pjb: I recently added a test system for each of my systems, and separated testing from main files, since that posed problems loading the library in some implementations (eg. mocl). 2015-04-03T05:19:34Z zacts: average: I like the 1994-1999 Remote Agent part that explains the political pressure to move from lisp to C++, and yet the final conclusion of the author was the without Lisp it would have failed 2015-04-03T05:19:55Z beach: zacts: In reality, the perceived schizophrenia is the result of different individuals in the same company having different ideas, and the company not having a way of reconciling those ideas. 2015-04-03T05:20:43Z beach: {0}grant: Good luck with that thinking. 2015-04-03T05:21:32Z zacts: oh the other question I had about SBCL, was does it always compile to a binary? 2015-04-03T05:21:43Z zacts: or can I design a program that I can modify and extend at runtime? 2015-04-03T05:21:55Z pjb: both. 2015-04-03T05:22:08Z beach: zacts: Don't confuse compiling to native code with generating an executable. 2015-04-03T05:22:13Z zacts: oh ok 2015-04-03T05:22:18Z {0}grant: beach: Ultimately, they have to have these motives -- because if not, they would not exist (if they were for-profit). 2015-04-03T05:22:18Z pjb: or being able to do it again at run-time. 2015-04-03T05:22:20Z beach: zacts: Most modern systems compile to native code on the fly. 2015-04-03T05:22:29Z zacts: but the modifications at run-time can be done in Lisp? 2015-04-03T05:22:33Z pjb: yes. 2015-04-03T05:22:39Z zacts: oh that's great 2015-04-03T05:22:40Z {0}grant: Non-profits have wider and more nebulous goal-posts, though, for example. 2015-04-03T05:23:23Z zacts: Oh, there was this book I'm also interested in, but it uses the Oz/Mozart programming language environment. Concepts / Techniques / and Paradigms of Computer Programming 2015-04-03T05:23:39Z zacts: I wonder if common lisp will support many of the paradigms listed in this text 2015-04-03T05:23:49Z zacts: it might be fun to implement some of the ideas in common lisp 2015-04-03T05:23:57Z zacts: oh and does: CL == common lisp? 2015-04-03T05:24:01Z zacts: or is CL and implementation? 2015-04-03T05:24:08Z beach: the former. 2015-04-03T05:24:09Z {0}grant: zacts: Yes, but "Clisp" does not. 2015-04-03T05:24:17Z zacts: oh I see 2015-04-03T05:24:31Z zacts: so Clisp is an implementation 2015-04-03T05:24:39Z beach: Yes. 2015-04-03T05:25:09Z {0}grant: zacts: Yes, it's one of GNU's. Due to readline's licensing iirc and the author not conforming to something, it just got co-opted in. 2015-04-03T05:25:23Z {0}grant: To the GNU project* 2015-04-03T05:26:17Z {0}grant: The only programming language implementation that I'm aware, besides maybe "Holy-C" that has religious imagery in it's REPL. 2015-04-03T05:26:20Z zacts: oh, and is it fine to use one of the official pre-built SBCL binaries, or is it better to build from source, or use a distro SBCL? 2015-04-03T05:26:30Z zacts: I've been using the official binary for linux X86_64 2015-04-03T05:26:42Z zacts: official binary, being the binaries provided on the SBCL homepage 2015-04-03T05:26:51Z pjb: if they work for you, it's ok. 2015-04-03T05:26:55Z {0}grant: zacts: Define "better". 2015-04-03T05:27:03Z zacts: ok, I may try to update Slackware's Slackbuild for sbcl 2015-04-03T05:27:16Z beach: zacts: I always install SBCL from a binary on Sourceforge. 2015-04-03T05:27:19Z zacts: Slackware's SBCL is so oooold it seems. It was totally broken for me 2015-04-03T05:27:24Z zacts: beach: yeah, that's what I did 2015-04-03T05:27:41Z zacts: the homepage for SBCL brought me to the SBCL SF page 2015-04-03T05:27:46Z {0}grant: I mean, you might get a very slight performance boost ... but probably not worth the time/cpu-cycles to build from source vs a binary. 2015-04-03T05:27:53Z zacts: ah ok 2015-04-03T05:28:09Z zacts: yeah, I don't care about that {0}grant. I'll just stick with the binaries 2015-04-03T05:28:44Z {0}grant: I have never built SBCL on my relatively modern box, so I might be skewed on actual compilation/build time though. In any case, it's no featherweight. 2015-04-03T05:29:50Z {0}grant: Heck, even building a Scheme such as Guile though is not a trivial build though in my (probably very limited) experience. :^P 2015-04-03T05:30:14Z zacts: I've built guile before 2015-04-03T05:30:20Z zacts: it isn't trivial with the dependencies 2015-04-03T05:30:36Z zacts: also, I tried the guix distro, which was kind of difficult to bootstrap on Slackware 2015-04-03T05:30:43Z zacts: but I did get guix working 2015-04-03T05:30:45Z {0}grant: zacts: Ah, I just meant the VM by itself. 2015-04-03T05:30:52Z zacts: oh yeah 2015-04-03T05:31:03Z zacts: well, from what I understand guile shouldn't be built with a parallel make 2015-04-03T05:31:04Z PuercoPop: zacts: the benefit of compiling from source is that you can jump the the implementation's code, the way I install sbcl on a new machine is installing clisp (because sbcl needs a cl implementation to compile) first and then using it to compile sbcl. 2015-04-03T05:31:07Z {0}grant: Well "by itself" as if it shipped alone, or something. 2015-04-03T05:31:38Z zacts: PuercoPop: oh kind of like how I can jump to an emacs source file via emacs help? 2015-04-03T05:32:05Z zacts: I'm guessing that if this is the case, that you can redefine the behavior, and core, of much of your interpreter at run-time? 2015-04-03T05:32:34Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-03T05:32:35Z zacts: I've hear lisp as being a programming language programming language, but I didn't realize it was this powerful 2015-04-03T05:33:00Z zacts: I'm used to perl though 2015-04-03T05:33:02Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-03T05:33:16Z zacts: perl is just perl, you can't modify the core interpreter, without modifying the nutty C source I guess... 2015-04-03T05:33:38Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T05:36:33Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-03T05:38:17Z {0}grant: zacts: The ease of "Metaprogramming" and/or DSLs are some of the biggest draws to the Lisp-world for me. 2015-04-03T05:40:10Z zacts: oh yeah 2015-04-03T05:43:13Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-03T05:43:45Z {0}grant: Brb. 2015-04-03T05:43:54Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-04-03T05:43:55Z {0}grant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T05:44:27Z {0}grant joined #lisp 2015-04-03T05:45:08Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-04-03T05:49:23Z PuercoPop: zacts: even better because it works without the help-buffer indirection, but yeah. In fact if you want to support slime's jump-to-definition in elisp there is a pacakge for it: https://github.com/purcell/elisp-slime-nav 2015-04-03T05:49:56Z zacts: PuercoPop: is this useful for someone who is just learning Lisp? or is it mainly useful for power users? 2015-04-03T05:50:14Z zacts: if so, I may stick with just a binary for now, but as I advance, I may try this out? 2015-04-03T05:51:00Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-03T05:51:16Z PuercoPop: and yeah, you can redefine the because of your implementation. It depends on what you want to learn. Binary is fine imho 2015-04-03T05:52:20Z zacts: cool 2015-04-03T05:52:53Z guthur quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-03T05:55:09Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T05:55:22Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-04-03T05:55:25Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-04-03T05:56:54Z xinau joined #lisp 2015-04-03T05:57:20Z beach: So why is it that the binary doesn't also contain all the source code as strings? 2015-04-03T05:57:28Z beach: I definitely plan to do that for SICL. 2015-04-03T05:57:48Z pjb: because it's optional, and implementations optimize for space. 2015-04-03T05:57:51Z beach: That way, there is also no risk of the source file getting out of sync compared to the code in the system. 2015-04-03T05:58:06Z pjb: It could contain the source as sexp at least. 2015-04-03T05:58:30Z beach: No, I mean the source, with every space character and such in it. 2015-04-03T05:58:33Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2015-04-03T05:59:05Z pjb: To keep the text, I started to implement a VFS virtual file system in lisp. 2015-04-03T05:59:12Z beach: I just did a "cat" of all the .lisp files of SBCL. The space they take up is 18MB or so. 2015-04-03T05:59:28Z beach: The SBCL .core file is 50MB. 2015-04-03T05:59:49Z pjb: Ideally, you'd have a logical host that would be stored in the image, and you could (load "VFS:SRC;FILE.LISP") after (ed "VFS:SRC;FILE.LISP") 2015-04-03T05:59:49Z x1n4u quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-03T05:59:57Z pjb: :-) 2015-04-03T06:00:07Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-04-03T06:00:38Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T06:01:33Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-04-03T06:01:40Z average quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-03T06:02:07Z zacts: pjb: do you also know scheme at all by chance? 2015-04-03T06:02:12Z pjb: of course. 2015-04-03T06:02:20Z beach: Let's see. A 500GB disk is about 50€ or so. That is 0.1€/GB. 2015-04-03T06:02:21Z pjb: zacts: Have a look at (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme) http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/ 2015-04-03T06:02:22Z zacts: oh, which did you learn first? (just curious) 2015-04-03T06:02:27Z zacts: oh cool 2015-04-03T06:02:34Z pjb: it's difficult to answer that. 2015-04-03T06:02:38Z zacts: heh, it's ok 2015-04-03T06:03:06Z zacts: well, I'm going to get through my gentle intro to lisp now, so bbl 2015-04-03T06:03:20Z zacts: oh wait, but I need to install quicklisp SLIME first, I guess 2015-04-03T06:03:34Z beach: So 18MB is what? 0.002€? 2015-04-03T06:03:44Z pjb: One could say scheme, but the problem is that each time I tried to learn some lisp, I got a different scheme, everything was different. Once I happened to try clisp, and the next time, it was the same, so I could at least make some progress. So you can say the first I learned really was Common Lisp. 2015-04-03T06:04:01Z zacts: ah ok 2015-04-03T06:04:19Z pjb: Scheme is already at then 8th version of the standard (r7rs). There's only one CL standard! 2015-04-03T06:04:46Z pjb: Also, there are more variability between scheme implementations of a given standard, because so far it defined so little. 2015-04-03T06:05:05Z zacts: brb, I'm booting into a new emacs 2015-04-03T06:05:08Z zacts quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-03T06:05:11Z pjb: Hopefully, with r6rs and r7rs, the scheme standard covers more, so implementations should become more homogeneous. 2015-04-03T06:05:54Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-03T06:05:54Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-04-03T06:05:54Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-03T06:06:07Z pjb: beach: it's not disk space, it's RAM space. RAM is more expensive. 2015-04-03T06:06:29Z beach: pjb: Oh, you don't have virtual memory? How sad. 2015-04-03T06:06:34Z pjb: :-) 2015-04-03T06:06:39Z pjb: right. 2015-04-03T06:08:04Z beach: OK, so maybe the implementers of Common Lisp want to optimize for disk space globally? How many computers have SBCL installed worldwide? 100000 maybe? That would be, let's see, 200€ worldwide. 2015-04-03T06:08:42Z pjb: Anyways, Smalltalk does it, I don't see why we shouldn't do it too. 2015-04-03T06:09:02Z beach: Exactly my point. Glad you are seeing it my way now. :) 2015-04-03T06:09:05Z pjb: But since we edit lisp code with an external unix process (GNU emacs), it's not too useful. 2015-04-03T06:09:15Z beach: Oh? 2015-04-03T06:09:24Z pjb: No, I agree entirely. I wrote ibcl and started vfs for reason. 2015-04-03T06:11:07Z beach: I am thinking as follows: M-. should show the exact source stored in the image. If you want to edit it, a file must exist. Either some location of the file is known, and then it is compared to the source in the image before you edit it. If no fie is known, one is written from the internal source. 2015-04-03T06:11:43Z beach: Loading code as source or FASL also loads the text of the source. 2015-04-03T06:11:51Z pjb: A process can export a virtual file system so that external editors could still edit the text files inside the image. 2015-04-03T06:12:12Z beach: It would still have to be a copy though. 2015-04-03T06:12:28Z pjb: Yes, since you'd take a snapshot upon compile/loading. 2015-04-03T06:12:40Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-03T06:12:40Z pjb: just loading actually. 2015-04-03T06:12:55Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-04-03T06:12:55Z pjb: well, COMPILE too, not COMPILE-FILE. 2015-04-03T06:13:18Z zacts: hi 2015-04-03T06:13:21Z beach: Think LispOS here. Then you would have some CLOS object representing a "file". 2015-04-03T06:13:21Z zacts: ok I'm back 2015-04-03T06:13:23Z pjb: But then, compile-file can have eval-when :compile-toplevel which defines some stuff that should be snapshooted too. 2015-04-03T06:13:37Z zacts: I followed the quicklisp guide to install SLIME, and added the config to ~/.emacs.d/init.el 2015-04-03T06:15:10Z beach: Time to get to work! 2015-04-03T06:15:12Z beach left #lisp 2015-04-03T06:16:38Z zacts: any idea on how to add the SLIME doc to my info? 2015-04-03T06:17:29Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-03T06:18:25Z zacts: gnu info that is 2015-04-03T06:19:57Z {0}grant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T06:21:49Z nostoi joined #lisp 2015-04-03T06:23:05Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T06:24:23Z {0}grant joined #lisp 2015-04-03T06:26:50Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T06:27:35Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T06:28:07Z pacon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T06:28:36Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T06:28:40Z pacon joined #lisp 2015-04-03T06:32:19Z pacon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T06:32:35Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-04-03T06:32:38Z pjb: zacts: the .info files should be installed in some info directory. 2015-04-03T06:32:50Z pacon joined #lisp 2015-04-03T06:33:16Z zacts quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T06:34:54Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-04-03T06:35:08Z a2015 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-03T06:35:12Z zacts: pjb: sorry I missed that 2015-04-03T06:35:21Z zacts: I acidentally killed my emacs daemon 2015-04-03T06:35:33Z pjb: zacts: the .info files should be installed in some info directory. 2015-04-03T06:35:37Z zacts: oh ok 2015-04-03T06:35:39Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T06:36:08Z pjb: zacts: you could ask in #emacs how to install info files, I guess. 2015-04-03T06:36:11Z zacts: I did 2015-04-03T06:36:15Z zacts: but, to no avail 2015-04-03T06:36:21Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T06:36:24Z pjb: ok 2015-04-03T06:36:39Z zacts: although, I wonder if I can just do a ~/.info or something 2015-04-03T06:36:40Z easye joined #lisp 2015-04-03T06:36:42Z zacts: and manually do this 2015-04-03T06:36:51Z zacts: I just didn't know if there was a recommended way to do it though 2015-04-03T06:37:01Z zacts: I can put them in ~/texinfo or something 2015-04-03T06:37:06Z edgar-rft: zacts: (add-to-list 'Info-default-directory-list "your/info/directory") 2015-04-03T06:37:20Z zacts: edgar-rft: which language is that? 2015-04-03T06:37:23Z zacts: elisp or lisp? 2015-04-03T06:37:26Z edgar-rft: add this to your .emacs 2015-04-03T06:37:28Z pjb: Also, you may set the environment variable INFOPATH 2015-04-03T06:37:30Z zacts: oh I see 2015-04-03T06:37:42Z chu: zacts: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/InfoPath 2015-04-03T06:37:46Z zacts: cool 2015-04-03T06:39:36Z Pastaf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-03T06:43:41Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-03T06:55:14Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T06:56:26Z guthur joined #lisp 2015-04-03T07:01:11Z {0}grant quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-03T07:01:41Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-03T07:03:53Z kvsari joined #lisp 2015-04-03T07:05:16Z mvilleneuve__ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T07:07:52Z pacon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T07:08:15Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T07:08:39Z pacon joined #lisp 2015-04-03T07:11:09Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-03T07:11:20Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-03T07:11:42Z Dasyatid1 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T07:12:44Z {0}grant joined #lisp 2015-04-03T07:13:22Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-03T07:18:59Z {0}grant quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-03T07:19:59Z pacon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T07:20:25Z pacon joined #lisp 2015-04-03T07:21:06Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-03T07:23:53Z paul0``` joined #lisp 2015-04-03T07:24:57Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-03T07:27:33Z paul0`` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-03T07:30:05Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-03T07:30:13Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T07:30:44Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-04-03T07:32:53Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-04-03T07:41:11Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2015-04-03T07:42:25Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-03T07:45:08Z easye` joined #lisp 2015-04-03T07:45:42Z a2015 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T07:45:49Z easye` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T07:46:04Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2015-04-03T07:47:00Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T07:47:14Z easye joined #lisp 2015-04-03T07:49:00Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-04-03T07:55:58Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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For example, https://gist.github.com/guicho271828/8243c67e4e5a28cbea1e 2015-04-03T08:51:26Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-03T08:51:49Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-04-03T08:52:30Z pjb: guicho: how about using swig? 2015-04-03T08:53:47Z guicho: using swig is painful. It always require significant effort when parsing C headers with lots of __attributes and misc GCC extensions 2015-04-03T08:54:56Z guicho: I am trying to find a non-libfixposix method that implements complete posix interface 2015-04-03T08:55:17Z guicho: now I am using gcc-xml, which is partly very successful. 2015-04-03T08:55:39Z pjb: guicho: it looks like it generates __data as a :pointer anyways, so you will have to do some casting to get to the __data structure. But the thing is that it de-anonymize the sub-structures. 2015-04-03T08:56:59Z guicho: thanks, so name the anon struct with gensym? 2015-04-03T08:57:27Z pjb: No need to be so drastic. Give it a name. 2015-04-03T08:57:39Z brucem: guicho: libclang is a lot easier to deal with than gcc-xml (I think). 2015-04-03T08:57:41Z pjb: swig names it: pthread_cond_t___data 2015-04-03T08:58:40Z guicho: brucem: I will consider that, thanks. 2015-04-03T08:59:47Z guicho: pjb: ok I understood what you mean. thank you. 2015-04-03T09:01:07Z d4ryus_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T09:03:03Z thodg joined #lisp 2015-04-03T09:03:04Z guicho: pjb: oh I can't change the source C header files. 2015-04-03T09:03:50Z guicho: I am basically writing an automatic groveller specification generator. 2015-04-03T09:04:23Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-03T09:05:21Z guicho: a header file in the system --> xml --> generate cffi groveller files --> load the spec with cffi-grovel 2015-04-03T09:13:30Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-03T09:17:27Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-03T09:17:35Z guicho: I finally find c2ffi. this might be better than SWIG. 2015-04-03T09:18:24Z guicho: " unlike SWIG, this uses Clang to actually parse the input" http://www.cliki.net/c2ffi 2015-04-03T09:19:15Z guicho: I hope this indicates that it is able to reliably parse the GCC extensions 2015-04-03T09:21:11Z Shinmera: You might also want to look at cl-autowrap then. 2015-04-03T09:22:44Z pacon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T09:23:16Z pacon joined #lisp 2015-04-03T09:23:32Z wicope joined #lisp 2015-04-03T09:23:32Z wicope quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-03T09:24:16Z wicope joined #lisp 2015-04-03T09:25:51Z Dasyatid1 left #lisp 2015-04-03T09:27:48Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-03T09:28:52Z guicho: Shinmera: this. is. awesome. 2015-04-03T09:29:53Z guicho: It was lucky to know that before re-implementing another wheels 2015-04-03T09:31:11Z Niac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T09:31:46Z p_l: guicho: GCC is the only thing that reliably parses GCC extensions 2015-04-03T09:31:58Z p_l: so gcc-xml or one of the dump options are the only way 2015-04-03T09:36:44Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T09:39:29Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-03T09:41:37Z jackdaniel: and even gcc doesn't parse them reliably ^_^ (jk) 2015-04-03T09:42:02Z p_l: not a joke if you try to stitch together binaries built with two versions of gcc 2015-04-03T09:42:11Z jackdaniel: :-) 2015-04-03T09:47:59Z kons joined #lisp 2015-04-03T09:48:35Z pjb: Is gcc-xml still maintained? I had the impression it was several gcc version late. 2015-04-03T09:49:13Z hectortrope joined #lisp 2015-04-03T09:49:17Z {0}grant joined #lisp 2015-04-03T09:49:35Z hectortrope: Hi I want to learn list is it rght channel? 2015-04-03T09:49:42Z hectortrope: how to get started with lisp?/ 2015-04-03T09:49:52Z pjb: http:/cliki.net/Getting+Started 2015-04-03T09:49:58Z pjb: http:/cliki.net/Online+Tutorial 2015-04-03T09:51:15Z hectortrope: i pjb Can I make cfd softwares or cad softwares using lisp?/ 2015-04-03T09:51:29Z hectortrope: Can i use lisp for linux/unix administration?? 2015-04-03T09:51:31Z pjb: Yes, any kind of software you want. 2015-04-03T09:51:39Z pjb: I only use it for linux administration. 2015-04-03T09:53:10Z hectortrope: pjb really?/ i am learning ruby and python for system administration but can I use lispp?? 2015-04-03T09:53:14Z hectortrope: Lisp very hard?? 2015-04-03T09:53:47Z pjb: No, it's rather simplier than any other programming language. 2015-04-03T09:54:10Z hectortrope: pjb really?? But less jobs right? 2015-04-03T09:54:14Z pjb: Right. 2015-04-03T09:54:20Z hectortrope: why its not famous? 2015-04-03T09:54:38Z hectortrope: More is it a high level or low level programming language? 2015-04-03T09:54:41Z pjb: It's a secret weapon. The secret is well kept. 2015-04-03T09:54:49Z guicho: lol 2015-04-03T09:54:57Z pjb: It is of the level you want. 2015-04-03T09:54:59Z hectortrope: 4hrs a day In how many days I can learn?? 2015-04-03T09:55:11Z hectortrope: guicho is he lying? 2015-04-03T09:55:16Z hectortrope: lie?/ 2015-04-03T09:55:31Z pjb: ten years. 2015-04-03T09:55:39Z pjb: anything takes ten years to learn. 2015-04-03T09:55:57Z pjb: But you can read a short tutorial in half a day. 2015-04-03T09:56:12Z hectortrope: pjb :-( 2015-04-03T09:56:15Z guicho: hectortrope: he is telling the truth. sorry, please don't care. Lisp is also a secret weapon for me. 2015-04-03T09:56:40Z hectortrope: guico if its very worth then it would have become very famous 2015-04-03T09:56:45Z joga: they're just trying to keep the secret weapon to themselves... wouldn't be very secret otherwise 2015-04-03T09:56:46Z hectortrope: and no secret can be hidden 2015-04-03T09:56:59Z guicho: hectortrope: 4 hrs a day, in how many days... 2015-04-03T09:57:01Z hectortrope: Lol guys here 2015-04-03T09:57:20Z hectortrope: in how many days I can learn lisp?/ 2015-04-03T09:57:24Z hectortrope: I mans basics 2015-04-03T09:57:29Z joga: 4 2015-04-03T09:57:36Z pjb: the basics, are learned in half an hour. 2015-04-03T09:57:47Z hectortrope: i am from mechanical engg and learned python in one day and ruby in one day I mean basics 2015-04-03T09:57:50Z pjb: Just read a tutorial. If you're smart, you won't need more. 2015-04-03T09:57:58Z hectortrope: like that for list how many 2015-04-03T09:58:11Z hectortrope: pjb the two links u gave? 2015-04-03T09:58:29Z hectortrope: the guy who wrote for 14 yrs daughter? 2015-04-03T09:58:29Z pjb: Yes. For example: http://sourceforge.net/p/clisp/clisp/ci/default/tree/doc/LISP-tutorial.txt 2015-04-03T09:59:19Z hectortrope: any one knows chef here? 2015-04-03T09:59:28Z guicho: My grad advisor is trying to tell lisp for his 10 yrs old son 2015-04-03T09:59:47Z hectortrope: can we do same infrastructure management using lisp? 2015-04-03T10:00:10Z pjb: of course. 2015-04-03T10:00:12Z hectortrope: My a linux admin. Can i do everything related to system administration using lisp? 2015-04-03T10:00:16Z joga: you can do anything in it if you want to 2015-04-03T10:00:20Z hectortrope: pjb any example? 2015-04-03T10:00:23Z pjb: Ok, so you are gavino, aren't you? 2015-04-03T10:00:35Z hectortrope: gavino ,means? 2015-04-03T10:00:53Z pjb: I gave you the urls. Now act. 2015-04-03T10:01:33Z hectortrope: http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/31/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/ http://cliki.net/Online+Tutorial 2015-04-03T10:01:41Z hectortrope: those two and sorceforge? 2015-04-03T10:02:33Z joga: quicklisp is probably very useful to get the environment set up 2015-04-03T10:02:34Z hectortrope: Lisp is the second-oldest high-level programming language 2015-04-03T10:02:49Z hectortrope: lisp bvery old?? 2015-04-03T10:02:53Z guicho: s/high/highest/g 2015-04-03T10:02:56Z joga: quite old 2015-04-03T10:03:04Z joga: late 50s I guess? 2015-04-03T10:03:08Z hectortrope: if its very old why not very famous? 2015-04-03T10:03:29Z joga: was the girl who wrote the software for apollo famous? 2015-04-03T10:03:32Z pjb: hectortrope: basically, because people keep asking why it's not famous, instead of writing famous programs with it. 2015-04-03T10:03:58Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-03T10:04:19Z hectortrope: pjb ok If I have any doubts i will come here 2015-04-03T10:04:25Z pjb: yes. 2015-04-03T10:04:32Z hectortrope: i just need system administartion tasks for one week 2015-04-03T10:04:40Z hectortrope: Later i will explore more 2015-04-03T10:04:49Z pjb: I use clisp to write my unix scripts. 2015-04-03T10:04:54Z hectortrope: We can parse xml files using lisp right? 2015-04-03T10:04:59Z hectortrope: clisp?? 2015-04-03T10:04:59Z pjb: Sure. 2015-04-03T10:05:00Z pjb: http://clisp.org 2015-04-03T10:05:08Z pjb: There are various implementations of CL. 2015-04-03T10:05:35Z pjb: http://cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20implementation 2015-04-03T10:06:20Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T10:06:30Z hectortrope: pjb I have one problem . I Install integrating software called dell's boomi on my linux servers. Now I want to pre-check with various linux commands like which java etc So Can I use lisp to run all those linux commands with single script?? 2015-04-03T10:06:36Z joga: tbh, I think you won't be implementing anything useful for sysadmin stuff if you only have a week 2015-04-03T10:06:47Z hekmek joined #lisp 2015-04-03T10:07:32Z joga: I mean, you can, but the specific problem probably has more tailored solutions than what you would achieve as a complete lisp newbie, but it wouldn't all go to waste anyway... 2015-04-03T10:07:56Z hectortrope: what tailored solution? 2015-04-03T10:08:18Z joga: well to do simple stuff like that usually bash/perl/whatever is the simple solution 2015-04-03T10:08:53Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-03T10:09:10Z hectortrope: bash pel I dont and dont want to learn as all use them 2015-04-03T10:09:19Z joga: I'm sure many people here could and would use lisp for those things too, but for me for example I would get it done way sooner in something like bash unless it's complex enough 2015-04-03T10:09:23Z hectortrope: I am such a guy who always like to learn no one knows 2015-04-03T10:09:39Z joga: learning lisp is surely beneficial 2015-04-03T10:09:48Z joga: and very enjoyable too 2015-04-03T10:09:57Z hectortrope: Cool then 2015-04-03T10:11:28Z hectortrope: thank you al 2015-04-03T10:11:30Z hectortrope: bye 2015-04-03T10:11:35Z hectortrope: Happy lisping 2015-04-03T10:11:47Z joga: you too, bye 2015-04-03T10:12:47Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-03T10:17:00Z hekmek quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-04-03T10:21:53Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-04-03T10:25:18Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T10:26:10Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-03T10:29:48Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-03T10:29:49Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2015-04-03T10:31:51Z Tordek quit (K-Lined) 2015-04-03T10:31:51Z dwts quit (K-Lined) 2015-04-03T10:31:51Z nydel quit (K-Lined) 2015-04-03T10:32:23Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-04-03T10:33:03Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T10:33:25Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-03T10:34:49Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-03T10:35:40Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-04-03T10:41:39Z guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T10:42:02Z guthur joined #lisp 2015-04-03T10:42:10Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-03T10:45:03Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T10:50:01Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T10:50:52Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T10:51:33Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T10:52:01Z {0}grant- joined #lisp 2015-04-03T10:54:02Z novemberist joined #lisp 2015-04-03T10:55:09Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-03T10:56:41Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-03T10:56:47Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-03T10:57:24Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T10:57:37Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-04-03T10:57:49Z novemberist: newbie question: is it actually possible in lisp (emacs/slime setup) to keep access to the repl while to program is running and change things interactively "on the fly"? 2015-04-03T10:58:28Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T10:58:43Z Shinmera: You can start a second repl 2015-04-03T10:59:06Z jackdaniel: novemberist: or start something in separate thread 2015-04-03T10:59:20Z Shinmera: I think just do M-x slime-repl 2015-04-03T10:59:22Z jackdaniel: I manipulate opengl state that way 2015-04-03T11:00:28Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: in my emacs it just puts me in buffer with already created repl 2015-04-03T11:00:38Z jackdaniel: even C-u M-x slime-repl 2015-04-03T11:00:50Z novemberist: so playing with lispbuilder-sdl i could e.g. draw things on the screen through the repl while the main loop is running? because that would be awesome 2015-04-03T11:01:44Z jackdaniel: novemberist: I run main loop in separate thread, and do stuff in buffer/or repl 2015-04-03T11:02:00Z jackdaniel: i use bordeaux-threads for that purpose 2015-04-03T11:02:05Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:02:17Z jackdaniel: but store thread handle somewhere, so you can stop main loop without hassle 2015-04-03T11:03:02Z novemberist: jackdaniel: thanks. i will look into it 2015-04-03T11:03:20Z jackdaniel: i can give you working clinch snippet if you want 2015-04-03T11:03:49Z novemberist: that would be nice, thank you 2015-04-03T11:05:08Z Shinmera: There's slime-new-mrepl fwiw, though I don't know how exactly those work. 2015-04-03T11:06:25Z novemberist: M-x slime-repl for me also doesn't create a new repl 2015-04-03T11:06:40Z Shinmera: Yeah, it doesn't. I misremembered and couldn't test at the time. 2015-04-03T11:07:19Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:07:51Z novemberist: but that sort of interctive programming would be possible? or do i have to rerun the program every time i change something in the code? 2015-04-03T11:08:19Z dotemacs_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:08:24Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:08:26Z Shinmera: It depends. All lisp code you have is recompilable on the fly, so if you recompile a function all new calls to that function object will lead to your recompiled function. 2015-04-03T11:08:59Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:09:08Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:09:55Z jackdaniel: novemberist: http://hellsgate.pl/public/cl-gl.tar 2015-04-03T11:10:33Z jackdaniel: and with bordeaux-threads run start in separate thread 2015-04-03T11:10:57Z jackdaniel: and manipulate parameter spin from repl 2015-04-03T11:11:12Z jackdaniel: it is axis parameter, so you'll see, how object changes direction 2015-04-03T11:11:17Z novemberist: i have an sdl window running with objects drawn on the screen, but changing values in the buffer and recompiling the function doesn't change what is visible in the window 2015-04-03T11:11:21Z jackdaniel: it's obscure example, but i just scratched it 2015-04-03T11:11:40Z jackdaniel: novemberist: on my example you mean? 2015-04-03T11:12:11Z novemberist: no, just ony my own 2015-04-03T11:12:18Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-03T11:12:25Z jackdaniel: oh 2015-04-03T11:12:33Z Shinmera: Then you're either retaining references to your old list of objects, aren't redrawing the screen at all, or you aren't calling the function quite right. 2015-04-03T11:12:34Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:12:34Z oleo is now known as Guest87446 2015-04-03T11:12:51Z guicho: was sdl capable of handling multithreaded programs? 2015-04-03T11:13:30Z jackdaniel: guicho: from my experience - yes 2015-04-03T11:13:37Z jackdaniel: at least from lisp ;) 2015-04-03T11:13:39Z Shinmera: Doesn't matter for this. If you recompile the function the new binding is available globally. As long as the new function object is called, things should reference the new function, since it's all lisp side. 2015-04-03T11:13:44Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T11:13:56Z p_l: guicho: well, you could always have fenced the SDL calls to one thread :) 2015-04-03T11:14:03Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-03T11:14:09Z oleo_ is now known as oleo 2015-04-03T11:14:29Z Guest87446 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-03T11:16:02Z jackdaniel: novemberist: (defparameter *my-thread* (bt:make-thread #'start)) from inside cl-gl package, and there should be wonderful monster spinning on window 2015-04-03T11:16:16Z jackdaniel: and then modify spin variable, and ie C-c C-c on it 2015-04-03T11:16:38Z jackdaniel: or modify main-loop function 2015-04-03T11:17:46Z guicho: on cl-gtk2, C interface referenced the event handler function with static function pointers, and the redefinition of the function of lisp side was not reflected. I had to set (lambda () (symbol-function 'myhandler)) for that purpose. 2015-04-03T11:17:48Z jackdaniel: and you have to ofc (ql:quickload :bordeaux-threads) 2015-04-03T11:18:02Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:18:46Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:18:57Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure if redefining function will work, maybe you can redefine functions referenced by main-loop, the latter surely works 2015-04-03T11:19:06Z jackdaniel: oo, i see snow behind the window 2015-04-03T11:19:08Z Shinmera: novemberist: I don't know SDL, but this certainly works: http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/9S# 2015-04-03T11:19:35Z dotemacs_ quit 2015-04-03T11:20:06Z Shinmera: I've done a bunch of on-the-fly recompile stuff in my GUI projects and it works just fine (Qt adds some kludges to that, but in general it works). 2015-04-03T11:20:09Z dotemacs_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:20:56Z guicho: OPERATION-ERROR while invoking # on 2015-04-03T11:20:56Z guicho: # 2015-04-03T11:21:17Z Shinmera: guicho: That probably means your qmake points to qmake-qt5 rather than qmake-qt4 2015-04-03T11:21:18Z guicho: installing qt .... 2015-04-03T11:21:29Z Shinmera: Or you don't have qt installed at all. 2015-04-03T11:21:41Z guicho: I think the latter 2015-04-03T11:21:59Z Shinmera: Make sure to install qt4, not 5. 2015-04-03T11:22:01Z jackdaniel: ^_^ I think qt lib works better with qt ;D 2015-04-03T11:22:12Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T11:23:01Z novemberist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T11:23:07Z Shinmera: guicho: if it persists even after installing the libs, keep the debugger open, cd to the commonqt directory in quicklisp, run qmake-qt4, and then invoke the RETRY restart. 2015-04-03T11:23:27Z guicho: thanks 2015-04-03T11:23:41Z Shinmera wishes installation was less annoying than this 2015-04-03T11:23:56Z novemberist joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:24:19Z guicho: how can I post a comment like that? 2015-04-03T11:24:23Z novemberist: oops, forgot i was running irc inside emacs when i closed it ;) 2015-04-03T11:24:32Z Shinmera: guicho: I'm not sure what you mean? 2015-04-03T11:24:51Z jackdaniel: plaster.tymoon.eu/new i think 2015-04-03T11:25:07Z guicho: as if you are an administrator, "* Shinmera". 2015-04-03T11:25:15Z Shinmera: That's just the /me IRC command 2015-04-03T11:25:53Z guicho want to say thank you. 2015-04-03T11:26:16Z jackdaniel: aa 2015-04-03T11:26:21Z jackdaniel: ok :D 2015-04-03T11:26:28Z jackdaniel: <-- mental slowpoke 2015-04-03T11:26:46Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:26:52Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-03T11:27:12Z guicho: I will search for the other commands. 2015-04-03T11:27:49Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T11:28:30Z dotemacs_ quit 2015-04-03T11:28:36Z williamyaoh joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:29:05Z dotemacs_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:30:12Z novemberist: Shinmera: I can't even compile your example 2015-04-03T11:30:34Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:31:05Z Shinmera: That's nice. Why? 2015-04-03T11:31:31Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:31:47Z guicho: umm, still failing. 2015-04-03T11:32:01Z novemberist: Shinmera: trying to quickload qtools throws a lot of errors at me 2015-04-03T11:32:20Z Shinmera: novemberist: Which implementation are you on? 2015-04-03T11:32:34Z novemberist: sbcl 2015-04-03T11:32:43Z Shinmera: Which version? 2015-04-03T11:33:05Z novemberist: 1.2.10 2015-04-03T11:33:16Z Shinmera: That should be fine. Uuh, not sure then. Can you paste me the errors? 2015-04-03T11:33:21Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:33:41Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:34:50Z kcj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T11:35:01Z novemberist: Shinmera: OPERATION-ERROR while invoking # on 2015-04-03T11:35:01Z novemberist: #SO "qt" "so" "commonqt"> 2015-04-03T11:35:01Z novemberist: 2015-04-03T11:35:07Z guicho: hmm. it seems like instead of qmake-qt4, just "make". also, I needed "sudo apt-get install libsmokeqt4-dev". 2015-04-03T11:35:12Z novemberist: sorry for pasting here 2015-04-03T11:35:30Z guicho: then qtools loaded fine. 2015-04-03T11:35:37Z Shinmera: guicho: Yeah you need smokeqt. 2015-04-03T11:35:49Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-03T11:36:03Z Shinmera: novemberist: Looks like you're missing qt4, smokeqt, or both 2015-04-03T11:36:31Z {0}grant- is now known as {[]}grant 2015-04-03T11:36:39Z guicho: "Legend has it that SMOKE stands for Scripting Meta Object Kompiler Engine ". hmm. 2015-04-03T11:37:01Z Shinmera: Smoke generates C wrappers for KDE libs and Qt. 2015-04-03T11:37:31Z novemberist: Shinmera: yep, i have neither installed. sorry, that was stupid 2015-04-03T11:37:51Z netroby joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:38:07Z Shinmera: Don't fret. The installation of commonqt is, as I said, unfortunately complex. 2015-04-03T11:38:40Z guicho: I hope quicklisp can handle apt-get/yum/etc. 2015-04-03T11:38:59Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-03T11:39:02Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T11:39:13Z guicho: or it should be in the asdf layer. 2015-04-03T11:39:51Z dotemacs_ quit 2015-04-03T11:41:06Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:41:43Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T11:41:54Z guicho: another error: The name "CL+QT" does not designate any package. however, maybe I should read your qtools turorial more carefull, rather than asking here. 2015-04-03T11:42:15Z Shinmera: Then your quicklisp is outdated. 2015-04-03T11:42:30Z guicho: or really. 2015-04-03T11:42:38Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:43:32Z novemberist: still can't compile even with qt4 and smoke 2015-04-03T11:44:08Z Shinmera: See my comment from 20 minutes ago 2015-04-03T11:44:22Z dotemacs_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:45:22Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-03T11:45:33Z guicho: worked. 2015-04-03T11:45:39Z Shinmera: Great! 2015-04-03T11:45:51Z dotemacs_ left #lisp 2015-04-03T11:46:29Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-03T11:47:31Z guicho: starving, leaving the lab. 2015-04-03T11:48:21Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T11:50:10Z smokeink_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:50:45Z smokeink quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T11:51:34Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:51:34Z guicho_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T11:51:45Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:52:43Z guicho quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-03T11:52:45Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:54:01Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T11:55:10Z tristero quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-03T11:56:04Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-03T11:59:25Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:59:39Z guicho_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T11:59:47Z Shinmera: FWIW I submitted a pull request to CommonQt that should now automatically use qmake-qt4 if it's available, making this a bit less annoying. 2015-04-03T11:59:50Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T11:59:57Z Shinmera: Hopefully stassats will merge it. 2015-04-03T12:01:49Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-03T12:01:52Z echo-area quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T12:03:34Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-03T12:05:32Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T12:05:47Z novemberist: http://pastebin.com/1ZfHXiGJ So here is minimal sdl exmaple. If i call main, change the 100 in (sdl:draw-filles-circle-* ...) to something else and do C-c C-c ... shouldn't that change the circle in my sdl window on the fly? 2015-04-03T12:05:53Z cyphase quit (Quit: cyphase.com) 2015-04-03T12:06:49Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-04-03T12:08:09Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T12:09:18Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-04-03T12:09:46Z corehello joined #lisp 2015-04-03T12:09:51Z tokenrove: novemberist: no, because you're redefining main, but not calling it again. you might have more luck putting the circle drawing code into separate function. depending on your compiler settings, you should then be able to recompile that function while main is running to change the circle size. 2015-04-03T12:09:53Z corehello quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-03T12:10:25Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-03T12:10:39Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T12:11:02Z novemberist: tokenrove: thank you. now that you're saying it, that makes sense 2015-04-03T12:11:04Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-03T12:12:00Z {[]}grant quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-03T12:12:36Z {0}grant quit (Ping timeout: 251 seconds) 2015-04-03T12:14:08Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T12:17:02Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T12:22:37Z pranavrc quit 2015-04-03T12:22:43Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T12:22:58Z pjb: novemberist: this is to say that you need to write your program in a special way to be nicely hot-updatable. 2015-04-03T12:23:03Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T12:23:54Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-03T12:24:08Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-03T12:24:29Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-04-03T12:25:03Z williamyaoh quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-04-03T12:27:42Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T12:27:51Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T12:29:49Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-03T12:31:19Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-03T12:32:43Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T12:34:07Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-03T12:34:23Z guicho_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T12:34:41Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T12:35:28Z cofree-copyon is now known as catenable-pyon 2015-04-03T12:36:42Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-03T12:38:03Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-04-03T12:38:10Z guicho_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T12:38:23Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T12:40:17Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T12:40:26Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T12:42:02Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-03T12:42:52Z novemberist: pjb: yes, i understand. seems complicated to do, if you pass along a lot of unless there is a way to restart my toplevel function in place? 2015-04-03T12:42:59Z hectortrope quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-04-03T12:43:08Z novemberist: *a lot of arguments across functions 2015-04-03T12:46:28Z Shinmera: Just have your main loop call out to a function and you're good. 2015-04-03T12:47:47Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-03T12:50:49Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-04-03T12:51:42Z pjb: novemberist: it's not complicated. There are just a few tricks. You must know about inline and not-inline declarations, and the difference between (quote f) and (function f). 2015-04-03T12:52:19Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-03T12:52:29Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-03T12:53:43Z pjb: If f calls g and g calls f, and they're both declared not-inline, then if f and g are changed when f runs, once f calls g and g calls f, it's the new f that's called. 2015-04-03T12:56:21Z xinau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-03T12:56:55Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-03T12:57:09Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T12:57:24Z vr-rm joined #lisp 2015-04-03T12:57:55Z novemberist: pjb: I'm slowly getting there :) 2015-04-03T12:59:50Z tuturto quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-03T13:00:54Z guthur: novemberist: if you are passing a lot of arguments to a function it might worth having a look to see if it could be easily decomposed into more than one function 2015-04-03T13:01:33Z Shinmera: Or if you should combine them into an object. 2015-04-03T13:01:39Z netroby quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T13:02:13Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:02:20Z antgreen joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:03:04Z guthur: Shinmera: data aggregation may be the solution but i would not reach for it just to lower the number of arguments. But we are missing all the context here so hard to say for sure 2015-04-03T13:04:34Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T13:05:08Z novemberist: Thanks for your help, i now have working what i wanted to achieve (except for the interactive repl, that is). Enough to play around for a bit 2015-04-03T13:07:49Z xinau joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:08:17Z guthur: novemberist: if you are interest in interactive graphics programming with CL, check out https://github.com/cbaggers/cepl 2015-04-03T13:08:27Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:08:34Z guthur: there are some demo videos linked in the readme at the bottom 2015-04-03T13:08:51Z pacon quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-03T13:10:12Z novemberist: guthur: thanks 2015-04-03T13:10:57Z tuturto joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:11:10Z easy-iPad joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:12:36Z {0}grant joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:13:05Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:17:10Z xinau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-03T13:17:32Z easy-iPad quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T13:18:09Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:18:09Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-04-03T13:18:09Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:19:06Z d4ryus_ is now known as d4ryus 2015-04-03T13:19:25Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:19:51Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:21:29Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:23:51Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T13:25:50Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-03T13:26:56Z xinau joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:29:19Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:32:08Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:32:14Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T13:32:16Z xinau quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-03T13:32:22Z oldk quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-03T13:32:25Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:33:12Z wolf_mozart quit (Changing host) 2015-04-03T13:33:12Z wolf_mozart joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:33:12Z wolf_mozart quit (Changing host) 2015-04-03T13:33:12Z wolf_mozart joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:33:52Z ehu: hi. I'm looking for someone who can help maintain paste.lisp.org with a one-off (smallish) project: there's a lot of spam in it and fe[nl]ix and I found out that spambayes has an XML-RPC interface we can use to access the spam filter. 2015-04-03T13:33:52Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T13:34:15Z ehu: I'm looking for someone to make lisppaste go through spambayes before accepting submissions. 2015-04-03T13:34:24Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:34:25Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T13:34:50Z ehu: any takers? 2015-04-03T13:39:25Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:39:32Z k-stz` joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:41:29Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:42:59Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T13:46:32Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:48:37Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-03T13:50:57Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-03T13:52:25Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:52:45Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:56:11Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T13:56:50Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-03T13:57:23Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:57:46Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T13:58:51Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T13:59:38Z k-stz`: tested what you've explained about inline/noninline http://paste.lisp.org/display/146760 am I doing it right? 2015-04-03T14:02:35Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-03T14:02:48Z khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 2015-04-03T14:02:50Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:03:01Z psy_ quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2015-04-03T14:03:29Z KDr2_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:03:35Z KDr2_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-03T14:03:40Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:03:49Z sword` quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-04-03T14:07:17Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:08:17Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:09:00Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:09:13Z Denommus quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-03T14:09:56Z attila_lendvai quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-03T14:09:56Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:09:56Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Changing host) 2015-04-03T14:09:56Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:10:11Z antgreen` joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:12:10Z antgreen quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-03T14:12:10Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T14:13:04Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:13:43Z resttime quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-03T14:14:37Z attila_lendvai1: ehu: why not stuff like recapcha? it should be easy to integrate to the web interface, no? or do actual humans sit somewhere and feed in spam by hand? 2015-04-03T14:15:12Z jackdaniel: let's pull all deps on google 2015-04-03T14:15:22Z jackdaniel: im sure they are honest, and nonprofit, whatever 2015-04-03T14:15:30Z jackdaniel: google not evil they say 2015-04-03T14:16:11Z s1n4 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:17:27Z ehu: attila_lendvai1: on trac.common-lisp.net there are people actually feeding it by hand. or at least, that's what it looks like. 2015-04-03T14:17:49Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:18:20Z ehu: attila_lendvai1: but yea, we could try recapcha. 2015-04-03T14:19:03Z attila_lendvai1: I was thinking that a recapcha integration should be cheap, and if there are people getting through capcha, then we can still move on to what you proposed 2015-04-03T14:19:08Z dlowe: "type the word elbow into this text box" stops a lot of automated spam bots 2015-04-03T14:19:10Z guicho_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-03T14:19:33Z jackdaniel: or: compute (+ ,(random) ,(random)) 2015-04-03T14:19:55Z ehu: attila_lendvai1: sounds like a good approach. but I'm still looking for a taker :-) 2015-04-03T14:19:58Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:20:01Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:20:07Z attila_lendvai1: "typ3 the w0rd eLiTE 1nt0 th3 b0x"? :) 2015-04-03T14:21:05Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:21:13Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:21:25Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T14:21:44Z attila_lendvai1: jackdaniel: I'm with you about decentralizing stuff, but recapcha probably doesn't leek too much useful info into the google database (but I didn't think this through too deeply) 2015-04-03T14:22:54Z xinau joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:23:02Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T14:24:22Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-03T14:26:44Z ehu: attila_lendvai1: actually, using spambayes would allow us to clear out old spam by feeding all the (currently available) old items through spambayes to build up the spam/ham database. 2015-04-03T14:27:04Z ehu: attila_lendvai1: that might be an interesting cleanup. 2015-04-03T14:27:30Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:31:18Z xinau quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-03T14:31:55Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:31:58Z novemberist quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-03T14:32:26Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T14:32:30Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-03T14:32:47Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:33:12Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:33:48Z jackdaniel: attila_lendvai1: point is, that i have no idea, if this information might be usesful, I admit I am too dumb to predict every potential use. But knowing that there might be some unanticipated malicious usages I see clearly, taht only defense is prevention by decentralization 2015-04-03T14:33:52Z jackdaniel: :) 2015-04-03T14:34:15Z jackdaniel: comma between usages and I :D 2015-04-03T14:36:32Z pllx joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:37:29Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:38:07Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:38:08Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:39:12Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T14:42:23Z kvsari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T14:44:03Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-03T14:44:42Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:45:09Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-03T14:45:47Z jackdaniel: other thing is, that spam filtering is better then proving, that user is human - latter excludes automatic legit usage 2015-04-03T14:46:19Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T14:46:49Z ehu: jackdaniel: well, introducing API keys should allow for the latter category. 2015-04-03T14:48:09Z jackdaniel: yes 2015-04-03T14:48:22Z jackdaniel: :) 2015-04-03T14:48:40Z ehu: Would be nice if someone could find some time for these improvements. 2015-04-03T14:49:01Z ehu: mostly as a one-off project. 2015-04-03T14:49:28Z ehu: if we could eliminate (or even greatly reduce) spam, we might even be able to re-introduce paste announcements in the channels. 2015-04-03T14:51:04Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-03T14:52:16Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:52:20Z SAL9000: can COERCE be extended? 2015-04-03T14:52:27Z fe[nl]ix: ehu: I could take care of lisppaste if nobody else shows up 2015-04-03T14:52:30Z fe[nl]ix: SAL9000: no 2015-04-03T14:52:48Z a2015 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-03T14:53:25Z SAL9000: what's the best-practices approach for implementing coerce-like features, then? 2015-04-03T14:53:51Z SAL9000: alexandria-style ensure-* ? 2015-04-03T14:54:01Z ehu: fe[nl]ix: ok. I'm looking for someone because I'm still very busy cleaning up common-lisp.net's services. 2015-04-03T14:54:58Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T14:55:38Z ehu: which is taking all time I have available. 2015-04-03T14:56:14Z fe[nl]ix: where's the source code and where are the pastes stored ? 2015-04-03T14:56:15Z ehu: I'm now working on the much-desired migration of CVS repositories. That is to say, the preparation thereof. 2015-04-03T14:56:20Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-03T14:56:59Z ehu: fe[nl]ix: the source code is in CVS: https://common-lisp.net/project/lisppaste/ 2015-04-03T14:57:10Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:57:27Z ehu: but i'll gladly migrate it to gitlab if you want. 2015-04-03T14:57:53Z ehu: the pastes are in /home/lisppaste/new-bots/pastes/*.xml 2015-04-03T14:58:47Z ehu: I'll add you to the lisppaste group. want me to add your ssh keys to lisppaste's? 2015-04-03T14:59:12Z catenable-pyon is now known as pyon 2015-04-03T14:59:34Z nidhogg860 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T14:59:51Z guthur quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T14:59:55Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:00:00Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T15:00:55Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:02:18Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T15:02:40Z Shinmera: ehu: One thing that in my experience gets rid of most spam bots is to add a field with a name like "firstname" or "username" and have it "display:none". Then just check if it's empty on submit. 2015-04-03T15:02:40Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:03:01Z ehu: Shinmera: nice trick! 2015-04-03T15:03:08Z guicho_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-03T15:03:20Z Shinmera: It's more effective than captchas, often times. 2015-04-03T15:05:05Z jackdaniel: unless it will be typed by hand (as i understood, some pastes seem that way) 2015-04-03T15:05:07Z dlowe: it's definitely a war of escalation 2015-04-03T15:05:22Z dfinninger joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:05:55Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:06:07Z dlowe: I've seen a pattern of a few hand spams as they figure out what protections are on the site, then an automated flood. 2015-04-03T15:06:17Z thodg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-03T15:06:21Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Of course, you can never overcome hand-made spam or hand-tuned bots. 2015-04-03T15:06:32Z SAL9000: perhaps add "accounts", which can be linked to freenode NickServ accounts, and only allow paste announcements if someone has "activated" their nick? 2015-04-03T15:06:32Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T15:06:36Z Shinmera: But both are rather unlikely 2015-04-03T15:06:51Z SAL9000: and if the nick is currently in #lisp, of course. 2015-04-03T15:07:33Z Shinmera: That's stupid because people outside #lisp use it too. 2015-04-03T15:07:40Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: doesn't bayes filters work on content directly? 2015-04-03T15:08:13Z thodg joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:08:14Z mvilleneuve__ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-03T15:08:31Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:08:35Z SAL9000: Shinmera: okay, if the nick is in the channel that they want to announce to. 2015-04-03T15:08:46Z SAL9000: I was assuming it was a #lisp specific thing. 2015-04-03T15:09:00Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:09:07Z Shinmera: Afaik you can't announce to channels anymore. 2015-04-03T15:09:10Z mvilleneuve__ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:09:34Z SAL9000: I thought the discussion was about how to allow that again without soliciting a whole lot of spam 2015-04-03T15:09:37Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T15:09:38Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:09:41Z dlowe: Shinmera: the next level is to mitigate. Track IPs/accounts and have a button where you can easily remove an account's postings 2015-04-03T15:10:47Z ehu: I'm thinking that we could allow channel-announcements for registered accounts only. 2015-04-03T15:11:06Z Shinmera: SAL9000: The discussion is about to get rid of spam pastes. 2015-04-03T15:11:10Z ehu: but the first step would be to eliminate the spam levels on the site itself. 2015-04-03T15:11:56Z SAL9000: Shinmera: captcha for anons, captcha on registration for accounts? 2015-04-03T15:11:56Z Shinmera: dlowe: From the time when I was briefly battling spambots, usually they'll use massively different IPs, so banning is not really feasible. 2015-04-03T15:12:09Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-03T15:12:32Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:12:41Z Shinmera: A potential solution would be to use publicly known lists of spam IPs and block them out of the box. 2015-04-03T15:12:50Z ehu: Shinmera: right. but all these IPs try to poste largely the same content. 2015-04-03T15:13:09Z ehu: so, if we check which content is being submitted, that should help identify the bots in the botnet. 2015-04-03T15:13:13Z foom: recaptcha would probably work. Or requiring a facebook/google/github/twitter/etc login, and banning user accounts that spam, not IPs 2015-04-03T15:13:16Z Shinmera: ehu: On my end it was wildly different content, but all of it completely unintelligible stuff. 2015-04-03T15:13:36Z Shinmera: OpenID/oAuth login would be nice, yes. 2015-04-03T15:13:44Z nidhogg860: why not use bayesian spam filtering? 2015-04-03T15:13:48Z ehu: I'd be all for blocking IPs listed in the spamhaus database. 2015-04-03T15:13:56Z tristero joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:14:15Z ehu: nidhogg860: that's one of the defenses listed. 2015-04-03T15:14:16Z jackdaniel: nidhogg860: it's an original idea and i also consider it optimal 2015-04-03T15:14:40Z ehu: so, for anybody to be interested in working on this, should I import the CVS repository into gitlab? 2015-04-03T15:15:09Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T15:16:32Z jackdaniel: I'd say yes 2015-04-03T15:17:13Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-03T15:17:53Z ehu: Shinmera: I've had problems with an OAuth account posting unwanted content on trac.common-lisp.net, but I had nowhere to complain about that account. 2015-04-03T15:18:00Z ehu: Shinmera: how is that supposed to work? 2015-04-03T15:18:19Z Shinmera: ehu: How is what supposed to work? oAuth/OpenID login? 2015-04-03T15:18:30Z ehu: if we solve that problem (the "nowhere to complain"), then I'm all for using OAuth 2015-04-03T15:18:52Z ehu: well, Trac has no notion of blocking OAuth accounts. 2015-04-03T15:18:53Z foom: The thing it does it let someone else do *registration*-spam protection. 2015-04-03T15:18:59Z Shinmera: oAuth and OpenID would just be the mechanisms to register/login to an account. 2015-04-03T15:19:00Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-03T15:19:06Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-03T15:19:12Z foom: You can block a more-finite number of accounts. 2015-04-03T15:19:19Z Shinmera: You can then still block by deactivating the account associated with the oAuth/OpenID token. 2015-04-03T15:19:30Z ehu: ok. that should work indeed. 2015-04-03T15:19:39Z a2015 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:19:49Z ehu: if we can set it up that way, I'm sure using OAuth/OpenID would be a great step forward for lisppaste. 2015-04-03T15:20:09Z Shinmera: You'd need a user account system. Nowadays it's just a good idea that instead of using a password, use other already existent services like twitter, google, etc. through oAuth/OpenID. 2015-04-03T15:20:12Z ehu: Having accounts with API keys would be great as well, because I loved the emacs integration. 2015-04-03T15:20:47Z ehu: (we'd be able to re-enable XML-RPC, I'd hope) 2015-04-03T15:20:54Z ehu: anyway, 2015-04-03T15:20:57Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:20:57Z ehu: one step at a time. 2015-04-03T15:21:15Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:21:18Z Shinmera is reminded to write the secondary auth implementation for Radiance that allows oAuth/OpenID. 2015-04-03T15:21:23Z ehu: I'll have a look at importing the lisppaste repository into gitlab. 2015-04-03T15:22:05Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T15:24:08Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T15:25:46Z yorick quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-04-03T15:26:22Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-03T15:26:25Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-03T15:27:54Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:28:09Z yorick joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:28:47Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T15:32:58Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T15:34:12Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-04-03T15:34:37Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:34:48Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T15:35:41Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-03T15:36:55Z smokeink_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T15:37:41Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:38:29Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-03T15:39:36Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:40:19Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T15:40:30Z eivarv joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:40:33Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:40:37Z fe[nl]ix: ehu: that would be great 2015-04-03T15:41:39Z ehu: ok. working on that now. 2015-04-03T15:41:57Z ehu: it's not really straight forward, it seems. 2015-04-03T15:42:09Z ehu: it worked for the cl-openal/cffi conversion, but even then it wasn't working in the first few runs. 2015-04-03T15:42:14Z mvilleneuve__ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-03T15:43:44Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-03T15:45:07Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:47:57Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:48:27Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T15:49:00Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:49:26Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-03T15:50:56Z dmiles_afk: is there a lisp theorem prover close to CYC that is fairly modern and maintained that provides proof outputs? 2015-04-03T15:51:13Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:51:52Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-03T15:52:33Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T15:53:49Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:54:17Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T15:56:13Z beach joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:56:14Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:56:20Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:56:21Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2015-04-03T15:56:58Z karswell` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-03T15:57:44Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T15:57:57Z pllx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T15:58:07Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:58:19Z dmiles_afk: i am looking for the bleeding edge of SNARK :) 2015-04-03T15:58:20Z ehu: fe[nl]ix: I've built cvs-fast-export, which seems to provide nice results. 2015-04-03T15:58:24Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T15:58:48Z pllx joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:58:50Z ehu: I'll import that. Please let me know if you like/dislike the result. 2015-04-03T15:58:50Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T15:59:07Z ehu: if you like it, I can use that for cvs->git conversion everywhere. 2015-04-03T16:01:14Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:01:45Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T16:02:18Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:03:20Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-03T16:05:58Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T16:06:14Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-03T16:06:14Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:06:17Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:06:25Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:06:43Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:08:04Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T16:08:42Z drmeister: Hello everyone 2015-04-03T16:08:47Z drmeister: beach: Are you online? 2015-04-03T16:08:51Z beach: I am. 2015-04-03T16:08:54Z beach: Hello to you too. 2015-04-03T16:09:17Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2015-04-03T16:09:35Z selat quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-03T16:09:59Z drmeister: Hang on - just woke up - thoughts not in order. 2015-04-03T16:10:34Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:10:59Z drmeister: In order to get landing-pad/unwind to work I need to pass a run-time generated identifier for each landing pad to the unwind instruction. 2015-04-03T16:11:57Z drmeister: For instance: (defun got () (tagbody (funcall #'(lambda () (go a))) (print "skip") a (print "done"))) 2015-04-03T16:12:08Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2015-04-03T16:12:39Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T16:12:42Z drmeister: The "got" function has a landing-pad that has a unique identifier associated with it, calculated when the "got" function is entered. 2015-04-03T16:13:19Z jackdaniel: beach: thanks for report, already fixed on repo 2015-04-03T16:13:20Z frkout quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T16:13:32Z beach: jackdaniel: Yes, I saw that. 2015-04-03T16:13:41Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:13:43Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-03T16:13:44Z beach: drmeister: You compute landing pads at runtime? 2015-04-03T16:13:52Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:13:59Z drmeister: The inner function #'(lambda () (go a)) needs to know that identifier so that when it throws a C++ exception to unwind the stack the exception will unwind only to the landing-pad that it should unwind to. 2015-04-03T16:14:08Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:14:29Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T16:14:42Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:14:59Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T16:15:37Z drmeister: I'm not sure what you mean by "compute landing-pads at runtime". Each landing-pad is generated at compile time but a unique run-time identifier needs to be generated whenever a function is entered that has a landing pad. 2015-04-03T16:15:44Z drmeister: Here's another example: 2015-04-03T16:16:10Z selat quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-03T16:17:00Z pllx joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:17:00Z beach: Wait a second. What do you mean by unique? To the function, to the session, to all sessions? To all sessions on all machines? 2015-04-03T16:17:21Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146764 2015-04-03T16:17:35Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:17:43Z drmeister: Unique to the invocation of the function. 2015-04-03T16:18:00Z beach: But two functions can have the same identifier? 2015-04-03T16:18:02Z drmeister: The stack-pointer or base-pointer of the frame would be suitable. 2015-04-03T16:18:05Z drmeister: No. 2015-04-03T16:18:17Z beach: So it is not just unique to the function. 2015-04-03T16:18:37Z beach: Unique to an invocation of *any* function. 2015-04-03T16:18:38Z drmeister: Look at that most recent example. If a function calls itself recursively, every time the function is entered a new landing-pad identifier needs to be generated. 2015-04-03T16:18:39Z beach: ? 2015-04-03T16:19:09Z drmeister: Unique to the position of the frame on the stack. 2015-04-03T16:19:17Z beach: OK, so by "identifier" you don't need a valid variable name in C++. 2015-04-03T16:19:51Z drmeister: It doesn't matter is half an hour later another function generates the same identifier as long as the identifiers are unique to every other identifier on the stack at any point in time. 2015-04-03T16:20:12Z beach: OK, so that stack pointer will do then. 2015-04-03T16:20:15Z drmeister: No I mean a value. 2015-04-03T16:20:19Z drmeister: Yes, the stack pointer would do. 2015-04-03T16:20:33Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:20:50Z drmeister: But it needs to be passed to inner functions so that they know what landing-pad to unwind to. 2015-04-03T16:21:18Z drmeister: So I'm asking about how I would use the enclose instruction to store this information. 2015-04-03T16:21:33Z beach: Store them in a lexical variable that is closed over. 2015-04-03T16:21:39Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:21:45Z drmeister: Up until now the landing-pads are invisible/lower-level than MIR 2015-04-03T16:21:45Z beach: No need for a special mechanism. 2015-04-03T16:22:00Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T16:23:22Z drmeister: How would I do that exactly, do I need to transform TAGBODY/GO into something else at the AST level? Something like (MY-TAGBODY (FOO) ... (MY-GO FOO label)...) 2015-04-03T16:23:54Z beach: I don't think so. 2015-04-03T16:23:59Z nidhogg860 left #lisp 2015-04-03T16:24:02Z drmeister: It's not just TAGBODY though - it's more like I need to expose landing-pads at the AST level. 2015-04-03T16:25:33Z beach: If you do it at the AST level, then you run the risk of introducing landing pads where they are not needed. 2015-04-03T16:25:52Z beach: It is not until the HIR level that we know whether a GO will result in an UNWIND. 2015-04-03T16:25:58Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:26:28Z drmeister: Agreed. 2015-04-03T16:26:45Z drmeister: Can I just add lexical variables at the HIR level willy-nilly? 2015-04-03T16:26:51Z gklimowicz joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:26:53Z beach: Sure. 2015-04-03T16:27:04Z drmeister: I guess it's more appropriate at the MIR level. 2015-04-03T16:27:11Z beach: No. 2015-04-03T16:27:23Z drmeister: You pointed out that landing-pads cause problems for HIR optimizations. 2015-04-03T16:27:24Z beach: You need to do it before the escape analysis. 2015-04-03T16:27:49Z drmeister: Maybe it's just the branch table that causes problems. 2015-04-03T16:27:54Z beach: I can't remember that right now. 2015-04-03T16:27:54Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:28:23Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-03T16:28:43Z beach: I think you need to do it before the escape analysis so that the variables that contain landing pad identifiers will be handled correctly by the escape analysis. 2015-04-03T16:28:52Z drmeister: Ok, so I need to generate a lexical variable at the HIR level immediately before escape analysis. 2015-04-03T16:29:30Z beach: I think so yes. And they need to be shared between the functions on either side of the UNWIND instruction. 2015-04-03T16:29:43Z beach: That way, they will be correctly closed over etc. 2015-04-03T16:30:05Z drmeister: So I just create a HIR instruction LANDING-PAD-INSTRUCTION that generates one output, the lexical variable that identifies that landing pad and put it right after the ENTER-INSTRUCTION. 2015-04-03T16:30:52Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-03T16:31:14Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T16:31:38Z drmeister: I thought the enclose instruction was already set up by that point. I've been spending so much time looking at late stage HIR and MIR I've forgotten what early HIR looks like. 2015-04-03T16:31:40Z beach: I can't tell because I don't know what such an instruction would represent. 2015-04-03T16:31:40Z JokesOnYou77 quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-03T16:31:57Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T16:32:03Z JokesOnYou77 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:32:06Z beach: Yes, the ENCLOSE-INSTRUCTION is there from the start. 2015-04-03T16:33:18Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:33:20Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:33:29Z drmeister: The inputs for the ENCLOSE-INSTRUCTION must get altered after that point by escape analysis - correct? 2015-04-03T16:34:06Z beach: Yes. That's done automatically when a variable is "shared" between two functions. 2015-04-03T16:34:27Z drmeister: Great! That's exactly what I'm looking for. 2015-04-03T16:35:22Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-03T16:35:23Z bin7me joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:35:34Z drmeister: So the escape analysis will take that "shared" variable and set it up as an input to the outer functions ENCLOSE-INSTRUCTION and set it up as a FETCH/READ-CELL from the enclosed environment in the inner function. 2015-04-03T16:35:49Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:35:59Z beach: Yes. 2015-04-03T16:36:27Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:36:34Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:36:54Z wglb joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:37:52Z drmeister: That's what I'm looking for - thank you very much. 2015-04-03T16:37:52Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-03T16:38:05Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T16:38:37Z xinau joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:39:41Z drmeister: What would any other Cleavir implementation do? You need to represent essentially the same information for an UNWIND-INSTRUCTION to do it's job. You need to know what frame to unwind to and where to go in the function associated with that frame. 2015-04-03T16:39:49Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T16:40:01Z beach: It's basically the same, yes. 2015-04-03T16:40:06Z drmeister: But we don't need to get into that now. 2015-04-03T16:40:43Z beach: In SICL, I would store the stack pointer and the address or something like that. 2015-04-03T16:40:59Z beach: ... in a shared lexical variable. 2015-04-03T16:41:07Z ehu: ok. the lisppaste repository has been migrated. 2015-04-03T16:41:29Z beach: drmeister: There might be some complications to allow the detection of "expired" exit points. 2015-04-03T16:42:55Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T16:43:54Z beach: ehu: Sorry, missed it. From where to where? 2015-04-03T16:43:57Z drmeister: I can push the frame/landing-pad identifier onto a shadow stack to allow detection of expired exit points. 2015-04-03T16:44:11Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-03T16:44:45Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T16:45:03Z ehu: beach: from CVS into gitlab. 2015-04-03T16:45:14Z beach: Oh. Good! 2015-04-03T16:45:23Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:45:49Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-03T16:47:08Z drmeister: beach: My current approach to compiling with Cleavir is (1) GENERATE-AST (2) HOIST-LOAD-TIME-VALUE (3) COMPILE-TOPLEVEL (4) HIR-TRANSFORMATIONS (5) HIR-TO-MIR (6) CONVERT-FUNCALLS 2015-04-03T16:47:31Z drmeister: I guess I would insert the LANDING-PAD-INSTRUCTION just before HIR-TRANSFORMATIONS. 2015-04-03T16:48:04Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:48:05Z beach: Yes, I think so. 2015-04-03T16:48:14Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:48:48Z JokesOnYou77_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:48:59Z ehu: beach: we're looking for people who want to help get rid of spam activity on lisppaste's site, by e.g. implementing (as a one-off project) a spambayes XML-RPC call to score content. 2015-04-03T16:49:10Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:49:12Z ehu: beach: there have been multiple ideas on reducing spam. 2015-04-03T16:49:13Z EvW quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-04-03T16:49:30Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:49:37Z beach: ehu: That, I actually managed to see in the logs. 2015-04-03T16:49:58Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-03T16:50:16Z ehu: ok. good :-) 2015-04-03T16:50:19Z theos quit (Quit: i will be back...nvm) 2015-04-03T16:50:32Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-04-03T16:50:41Z beach: Unfortunately, I have way too much on my plate already. 2015-04-03T16:50:59Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-03T16:51:03Z beach: Dinner. I might be back later. 2015-04-03T16:51:22Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:51:58Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T16:52:23Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:53:16Z loke_ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:53:24Z ehu: fe[nl]ix, Shinmera: creating issues to track the ideas we had. 2015-04-03T16:55:58Z ehu: oh. btw, if you want commit mails to be sent to your *-devel mailing lists when someone pushes to a gitlab project, that's a supported feature which needs to be configured. 2015-04-03T16:56:18Z ehu: I haven't found a service to do so, meaning that every project will have to do so for themselves. 2015-04-03T16:57:51Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T16:58:14Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-03T16:59:06Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T17:04:10Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-03T18:02:12Z gklimowicz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-03T18:05:06Z Xach: ehu: he does not join #lisp 2015-04-03T18:05:18Z gklimowicz joined #lisp 2015-04-03T18:05:23Z ehu: Xach: I found him in #abcl. 2015-04-03T18:05:23Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T18:05:24Z ehu: thanks. 2015-04-03T18:05:55Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-03T18:06:12Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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(; 2015-04-03T18:15:44Z drmeister: jackdaniel: Did you make changes to the ECL source for SHIFTF and ROTATEF? Did you discover any other problems? 2015-04-03T18:16:16Z rak[1]: jackdaniel: :o 2015-04-03T18:16:25Z rak[1]: mind blown. didn't even know `rlwrap` existed... 2015-04-03T18:16:34Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-03T18:17:02Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-03T18:17:05Z jackdaniel: drmeister: I didn't push them yet (because of mentioned additional problem), but hacked my own, yet I have to clean it and test 2015-04-03T18:17:15Z rak[1]: any good docs on it besides the manpage? like how to set up custom completions and custom keys? 2015-04-03T18:17:26Z jackdaniel: rak[1]: idk really 2015-04-03T18:17:30Z rak[1]: aye aye 2015-04-03T18:17:32Z rak[1]: thanks :) 2015-04-03T18:17:40Z Xach: many people who want a nice repl with sbcl use slime. 2015-04-03T18:17:54Z Xach: some use um...hmm..that one that's written with osicat. 2015-04-03T18:17:57Z Xach draws a blank 2015-04-03T18:18:00Z rak[1]: Xach: it is understandable, but it isn't the option i want to take. 2015-04-03T18:18:03Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T18:18:11Z rak[1]: i currently don't use emacs 2015-04-03T18:18:13Z rak[1] hides 2015-04-03T18:18:24Z jackdaniel: rak[1]: there is slimv afaik for vim 2015-04-03T18:18:35Z Xach: linedit! 2015-04-03T18:18:38Z rak[1]: jackdaniel: o. i should look in to that 2015-04-03T18:18:43Z rak[1]: i once wrote my own wrappers for vim 2015-04-03T18:18:43Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T18:18:44Z jackdaniel: never used it tough 2015-04-03T18:18:49Z rak[1]: and loaded clisp in a screen session 2015-04-03T18:18:53Z rak[1]: and dumped keys to the session 2015-04-03T18:19:04Z Xach: rak[1]: sure. not everyone uses emacs. but there isn't much of a talent pool producing solutions for irritations that emacs mitigates. 2015-04-03T18:19:04Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T18:19:39Z rak[1]: Xach: quite understandable. though if this `rlwrap` works with any program that needs input, might be worth me writing a vi-like interface for all the programs:) 2015-04-03T18:19:55Z jackdaniel: emacs produces also additional irritations on its own :D but still, best editor ever (: 2015-04-03T18:20:03Z rak[1]: haha. 2015-04-03T18:20:04Z Xach: http://xach.com/lisp/linedit-screencast.gif is a thing i made a while ago for linedit 2015-04-03T18:20:12Z rak[1]: i should maybe consider one day giving it a try, again. 2015-04-03T18:20:48Z rak[1]: nice gif:) that is neat. 2015-04-03T18:20:52Z rak[1]: how did you record it? 2015-04-03T18:21:23Z Xach: rak[1]: i used byzanz, i think. 2015-04-03T18:21:29Z rak[1]: but from time to time, i like setting `clisp` as my default shell. and i want to attempt to set up sbcl that way. as such, having vi-like readline is a must for me 2015-04-03T18:22:33Z rak[1]: byzanz.. neat. i have been meaning to search out solutions for recording my screen. 2015-04-03T18:23:04Z rak[1]: i'd like to find a good one for console. but i think my best bet is making an add-on board that captures all hdmi output. 2015-04-03T18:23:51Z Xach: byzanz was not great for complicated things, but it worked all right for recording my terminal. 2015-04-03T18:24:07Z Xach: i wound up writing a small lisp program to insert pauses in certain places. 2015-04-03T18:24:33Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T18:25:06Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T18:25:14Z Shinmera just uses OBS to record and ffmpeg or similar to convert to gif if needed. 2015-04-03T18:26:23Z jackdaniel: hmm, i saw same application visualising sessions recorded with command script 2015-04-03T18:26:26Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T18:26:31Z jackdaniel: to gif afair 2015-04-03T18:26:42Z Xach: byzanz is pretty old. 2015-04-03T18:27:21Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-03T18:27:45Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-03T18:28:37Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-03T18:29:50Z jackdaniel doulbechecked - on other irc server he hangs on /whois returns full list of channels 2015-04-03T18:30:57Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T18:31:52Z ehu: jackdaniel: right. it's a freenode security feature, I think. 2015-04-03T18:32:31Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-03T18:36:20Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-03T18:38:26Z bin7me quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-03T18:41:47Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-04-03T18:43:04Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-03T18:43:23Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T18:44:02Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-03T18:44:02Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-04-03T18:44:02Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-03T18:46:25Z __main__ joined #lisp 2015-04-03T18:46:54Z ggole quit 2015-04-03T18:48:27Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-03T18:48:44Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T18:51:00Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T18:51:36Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-03T18:52:39Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-04-03T18:55:11Z enupten joined #lisp 2015-04-03T18:56:19Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T18:57:31Z enupten: Does anyone know anything about "Weyl" : https://github.com/OdonataResearchLLC/weyl 2015-04-03T18:57:38Z enupten: ? 2015-04-03T18:58:07Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Richard Zippel was from Symbolics, wow! 2015-04-03T19:02:18Z Bicyclidine: linked from the github page is a list of pubs on zippel's page https://www.cs.cornell.edu/rz/computer-algebra.html 2015-04-03T19:02:45Z Bicyclidine: of course his page was last updated 1998. thanks, academia. 2015-04-03T19:04:57Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-03T19:06:00Z admg joined #lisp 2015-04-03T19:06:00Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-03T19:08:30Z enupten quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-03T19:09:09Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-03T19:11:22Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-03T19:11:33Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-03T19:12:14Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-04-04T03:52:15Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-04-04T03:53:24Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-04-04T03:58:49Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-04-04T04:01:29Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-04T04:04:08Z beach: Given a FLOAT number N, is there a way to determine which sub-type of FLOAT N is, without using TYPEP? 2015-04-04T04:04:43Z Quadrescence: beach, A really hacky way comes to mind! 2015-04-04T04:04:59Z beach: Yes, yes! Give it to me! 2015-04-04T04:05:03Z Quadrescence: Check the printed representation! 2015-04-04T04:05:10Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-04T04:05:18Z beach: Not bad! :) 2015-04-04T04:05:30Z Quadrescence: But that probably uses TYPEP/TYPECASE under the hood, of course. 2015-04-04T04:05:38Z beach: Yes, of course. 2015-04-04T04:06:45Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-04T04:06:52Z Bike: see if (eql x (float x 1.0s0)) etc.? 2015-04-04T04:07:14Z beach: Oh, interesting! 2015-04-04T04:07:16Z Pastaf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-04T04:07:32Z echo-area quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-04T04:09:14Z beach: That's quite good! 2015-04-04T04:09:17Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-04T04:09:28Z froggey: a generic function: (defmethod foo ((x single-float)) 'single-float) 2015-04-04T04:09:30Z beach: Using = might not work, right? But EQL does? 2015-04-04T04:09:40Z Quadrescence: EQL does, = does not 2015-04-04T04:09:45Z beach: Right. 2015-04-04T04:10:07Z beach: froggey: won't work. 2015-04-04T04:10:22Z froggey: oh no :( 2015-04-04T04:10:27Z froggey: are they types? 2015-04-04T04:10:31Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-04T04:10:32Z beach: Yes. 2015-04-04T04:10:40Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-04T04:10:47Z beach: For classes I have an other solution. Because I have subclassp. 2015-04-04T04:11:14Z beach: (subclassp (class-of object) (find-class )) 2015-04-04T04:11:57Z Quadrescence: Bike, that could of course signal a condition, no? 2015-04-04T04:12:02Z SAL9000: what's wrong with using TYPECASE/TYPE-OF/TYPEP ? 2015-04-04T04:12:06Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-04T04:12:17Z beach: In case anyone is curious, I am writing a bootstrapping version of TYPEP, so I can't use TYPEP. 2015-04-04T04:12:27Z pjb: beach: what do you mean "determine"? You can use TYPE-OF. 2015-04-04T04:13:12Z beach: I might be able to use TYPE-OF. 2015-04-04T04:14:14Z pjb: SAL9000: typecase might signal warnings, because an implementations can have 1, 2, 3, or 4 different float subtypes! 2015-04-04T04:14:21Z k-dawg quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-04T04:14:31Z pjb: SAL9000: cf. com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:float-typecase 2015-04-04T04:14:57Z beach: OK, I think I have a few possibilities now. Thanks everyone. 2015-04-04T04:15:03Z Quadrescence: Bike, beach, (float x y) could cause overflow, e.g., (float most-positive-double-float 1.0s0) 2015-04-04T04:15:13Z Quadrescence: so keep that in mind ;) 2015-04-04T04:15:20Z beach: Will do. 2015-04-04T04:15:24Z pjb: The only implementation that has 4 float subtypes is clisp (the best! :-)). ECL has 3 float subtypes. The other are lazy and only have 2. 2015-04-04T04:15:25Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-04T04:15:38Z SAL9000: who needs that many, anywa? 2015-04-04T04:15:40Z SAL9000: anyway* 2015-04-04T04:15:48Z pjb: float-most-positive-long-float 2015-04-04T04:15:56Z pjb: SAL9000: different purposes. 2015-04-04T04:16:08Z pjb: SAL9000: short-floats are like fixnum, no need for boxing. 2015-04-04T04:16:20Z pjb: single and double are classig IEEE. 2015-04-04T04:16:34Z SAL9000: and bigfloat, I guess? 2015-04-04T04:16:37Z pjb: long-float can have more precision, in clisp, much more: you can set the number of bits of precision you want! 2015-04-04T04:16:48Z pjb: Yes, in clisp, long-float is essentially a bigfloat. 2015-04-04T04:17:03Z Quadrescence: pjb, CLISP's float precision setting needs to be fixed 2015-04-04T04:17:10Z froggey: mezzano is particularly lazy and only supports single-float 2015-04-04T04:17:10Z SAL9000: interesting. 2015-04-04T04:17:12Z pjb: Now, what we'd want in a CL21, is integration in the numeric tower of real numbers (eg. using realib) 2015-04-04T04:17:21Z Quadrescence: no you would not 2015-04-04T04:17:25Z pjb: Quadrescence: what do you mean? 2015-04-04T04:17:30Z pjb: Quadrescence: Yes, I want it. 2015-04-04T04:17:32Z Quadrescence: re. CLISP? 2015-04-04T04:17:36Z Quadrescence: no, you don't want that 2015-04-04T04:17:39Z pjb: What? 2015-04-04T04:17:47Z Quadrescence: things like ZEROP are not computable with those numbers 2015-04-04T04:17:49Z pjb: I do want real numbers in lisp! 2015-04-04T04:17:52Z beach: pjb: CL21 is an existing project. Is that the one you are referring to? 2015-04-04T04:18:09Z Quadrescence: pjb, it is nice if you know that numeric operations will terminate 2015-04-04T04:18:17Z Quadrescence: and with computable reals, you do not get that 2015-04-04T04:18:17Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-04T04:18:23Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-04T04:19:43Z pjb: Quadrescence: https://www.google.fr/search?q=RealLib:+An+efficient+implementation+of+exact+real+arithmetic&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=HWYfVYPwDcLiaOTngeAL 2015-04-04T04:20:47Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-04-04T04:21:29Z Quadrescence: pjb, there's also COMPUTABLE-REALS 2015-04-04T04:21:36Z Quadrescence: pjb, there's also CF arithmetic 2015-04-04T04:21:52Z pjb: Also, you cannot complain about zerop, when you cannot use zerop with float already! 2015-04-04T04:21:56Z Quadrescence: It doesn't matter the package: It's a mathematical fact that you cannot do things like test equality with a guarantee of termination 2015-04-04T04:22:15Z pjb: You should never use = with floats anyways!!! 2015-04-04T04:22:44Z pjb: = on floats guarantees wrong result. Is that better than non-termination? 2015-04-04T04:22:49Z Quadrescence: That is not true. You just don't use it when many think you should. But that doesn't matter. Even other comparators will not terminate. 2015-04-04T04:23:02Z Quadrescence: You don't want me to use <= or < either? 2015-04-04T04:23:32Z pjb: Notice that there's no https://github.com/blambov/RealLib/blob/master/Real.h 2015-04-04T04:23:45Z pjb: no == in 2015-04-04T04:23:53Z Quadrescence: pjb, it has IsNonZero 2015-04-04T04:24:40Z Quadrescence: Guess what, it turns out if you're doing exact computations, for any non-trivial algorithm, IsNonZero or equivalently IsZero is a VERY important operation 2015-04-04T04:25:02Z pjb: On the other hand, you have != < and > in https://github.com/blambov/RealLib/blob/master/RealEstimate.h 2015-04-04T04:26:32Z Quadrescence: pjb, Are you saying that the inclusion of these makes them decidable? If so, that is wrong. 2015-04-04T04:26:44Z Quadrescence: pjb, Play around with https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/computable-reals 2015-04-04T04:28:41Z |3b| quite regularly needs to use = on floats 2015-04-04T04:29:24Z |3b|: (or maybe i want eql now that i think about it) 2015-04-04T04:29:58Z |3b| wonders if FLOAT-DIGITS (+ some precalculated constants) is enough to distinguish the float types 2015-04-04T04:29:58Z pjb: |3b|: you should be advised to use (< (abs (- a b)) epsilon) or some such. 2015-04-04T04:30:23Z |3b|: pjb: when i want to know if they are the exact same value, and not 2 values that are similar but not the same? 2015-04-04T04:30:53Z pjb: Only CS guys can use = on float (when manipulating the float representation). Other disciplines have to use the |a-b|< 2015-04-04T04:31:00Z |3b|: exact same value = renders correctly, not exact same = slightly different rasterization = looks horrible (sometimes, in some random case that i'll never be able to repeat reliably) 2015-04-04T04:31:09Z Quadrescence: pjb, |a-b|< is a horrible idea 2015-04-04T04:31:59Z |3b|: some times i might want to merge those close but not same values into 1 value, but i definitely don't want to keep them around thinking they are the same 2015-04-04T04:32:11Z pjb: Quadrescence: any numerical computation text will tell you to compare |a-b| with a relative epsilon. 2015-04-04T04:32:19Z Quadrescence: that is wrong 2015-04-04T04:32:29Z Quadrescence: most numerical texts also write in FORTRAN IV 2015-04-04T04:32:33Z Quadrescence: but that doesn't make it more right 2015-04-04T04:32:34Z pjb: :-) 2015-04-04T04:32:51Z pjb: Go tell that to numerical computation experts. 2015-04-04T04:33:00Z SAL9000: is it possible to detect whether lisp is started interactively or not? 2015-04-04T04:33:29Z |3b|: SAL9000: not portably, but specific implementations might have something that matches what you want 2015-04-04T04:33:46Z Quadrescence: pjb, I have spoken with them of course. Precision can be obliterated with that subtraction and give you totally wrong results 2015-04-04T04:33:55Z SAL9000: well, I've added REPL-UTILITIES to .sbclrc and I don't want them loaded if I'm, say, making a binary image using buildapp. 2015-04-04T04:34:18Z pjb: Quadrescence: that could be a problem indeed. I guess the test has to be more complex. 2015-04-04T04:34:25Z |3b|: (the spec doesn't require that there even be a concept of "stop" and "start", since some of the lisps being unified into "common" lisp were the whole OS) 2015-04-04T04:34:37Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-04T04:35:14Z |3b|: SAL9000: i'd probably try to arrange for separate binaries to have their own RC files anyway, not that i have any idea how to do that 2015-04-04T04:35:33Z pjb: SAL9000: that question is rather meaningless in general. On a particular platform, you may have some platform specific way to learn something that would correspond to what you might mean. 2015-04-04T04:35:53Z Quadrescence: pjb, something like (|a| - |b|) / |a + b| < eps is closer, but you should take care of a==b, a==0, b==0, and |a-b| subnormal cases first 2015-04-04T04:36:34Z Quadrescence: but the real moral is: design and use a test function appropriate for what you really want to determine and within what margin you can be erroneous 2015-04-04T04:36:42Z pjb: SAL9000: for example, on MacOSX, the Finder will pass arguments such as -psn_${i}_${n} from which you could infer some "interactivity". 2015-04-04T04:37:16Z pjb: Quadrescence: the conclusion I get from it, is that it's a good thing there's no == in RealLib. 2015-04-04T04:37:17Z yasha_ joined #lisp 2015-04-04T04:37:24Z SAL9000: pjb: the simple way seems to be #+swank 2015-04-04T04:37:37Z pjb: SAL9000: again, totally meaningless. 2015-04-04T04:37:41Z steelbird quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-04T04:37:47Z netroby quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-04T04:37:51Z pjb: #+ is a read-time test. It occurs long before running a program. 2015-04-04T04:37:56Z |3b|: if you only want it loaded when you use slime, possibly .swank.lisp 2015-04-04T04:38:05Z pjb: Some lisp programs will have swank loaded, and will start a swank server when launched! 2015-04-04T04:38:22Z |3b|: since you might want to connect to your binary from slime, in which case loading the repl utilities might become useful again at that point 2015-04-04T04:38:23Z pjb: SAL9000: you need to refine what you mean by "interactive". What you really want to test? 2015-04-04T04:39:08Z SAL9000: pjb: "dev" mode vs "release" mode, I guess. If an application starts it's own SWANK server & therefore loading REPL-UTILITIES makes sense, it can do this in it's defsystem 2015-04-04T04:39:10Z pjb: Even a lisp process running as a unix daemon process can be very much interactive, by allowing socket connections in and providing a REPL to clients. 2015-04-04T04:39:51Z pjb: SAL9000: when developping, I (push :development *features*). I don't do that in the script that generates the production executable images. 2015-04-04T04:40:19Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-04T04:40:34Z SAL9000: pjb: I find myself calling restart-inferior-lisp from SLIME often, which would clear out *features* 2015-04-04T04:40:48Z pjb: SAL9000: I just use different load scripts for development than to generate the production executable image. 2015-04-04T04:41:06Z pjb: SAL9000: you can push features in the rc file too. 2015-04-04T04:41:27Z SAL9000: does SLIME have an RC file it loads? 2015-04-04T04:41:39Z pjb: The thing is that when you generate the application, you must be in control of everything, so you can generate something different for production. 2015-04-04T04:41:50Z pjb: SAL9000: ~/.emacs for slime, ~/.swank.lisp for swank. 2015-04-04T04:42:07Z SAL9000: derp, yeah, I meant the lisp-side (SWANK). Thanks. 2015-04-04T04:42:51Z SAL9000: pjb: is that loaded if an application starts it's own SWANK server, or only if SWANK is started from emacs? 2015-04-04T04:44:25Z SAL9000: just checked, seems that it loads in both cases. 2015-04-04T04:46:58Z pjb: I would assume so. 2015-04-04T04:47:11Z pjb: It's done in swank:setup. 2015-04-04T04:48:06Z pjb: Also, using command line arguments, or environment variables to determine different modes of operations can be practical. 2015-04-04T04:49:26Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-04T04:49:31Z pjb: When developping and building an "application", (ie. thru saving an executable image), you need consider even more "times", than the classic compilation, macroexpansion, load, execute time. Now you have what you do when loading the code before generating the image, and you have launching the application, ie. loading and initializing the image. 2015-04-04T04:49:47Z pjb: Some implementations have hooks to do various things in those various occurences. 2015-04-04T04:52:01Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-04T04:52:26Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-04T04:56:09Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-04T04:59:48Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T05:02:03Z harish joined #lisp 2015-04-04T05:02:34Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-04T05:03:47Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-04-04T05:05:26Z beach: pjb: What is it that people complain about with respect to CLISP? Has anyone run the ANSI test suite on it? 2015-04-04T05:06:08Z pjb: I don't know. Mostly, it's an European implementation. 2015-04-04T05:07:28Z pjb: Probably some are very speed-oriented, so they don't like it uses a bytecode VM. 2015-04-04T05:07:53Z |3b| complains about performance and not supporting float Infinities and NaNs 2015-04-04T05:07:56Z beach: Sure. I was thinking more about being conforming. 2015-04-04T05:08:13Z pjb: no, it's as conforming as any other. 2015-04-04T05:08:22Z pjb: Sometimes more conforming, even. 2015-04-04T05:09:21Z pjb: ( well, you have to run it as: clisp -ansi ) 2015-04-04T05:09:24Z |3b|: yeah, it has one of the stricter LOOPs 2015-04-04T05:09:48Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-04-04T05:13:04Z theseb left #lisp 2015-04-04T05:14:37Z beach: The -ansi could be fixed. 2015-04-04T05:15:17Z Quadrescence: beach, I hear that CLISP just has lots of non-DWIM aspects. I don't remember them, but I remember Xach talking about it. 2015-04-04T05:15:23Z |3b|: well, you just need to save an image to get -ansi by default 2015-04-04T05:15:49Z pjb: Quadrescence: the opposite. It has a lot of DWIM aspects. That's a mixed blessing for newbies. 2015-04-04T05:15:50Z beach: Quadrescence: OK, I'll talk to Xach about it then. 2015-04-04T05:16:34Z |3b|: without -ansi it has some intentional non-conformance for "convenience and backwards compatibility" http://www.clisp.org/impnotes/ansi.html 2015-04-04T05:16:49Z Quadrescence: pjb, I dunno if pjb-DWIM is toutlemonde-DWIM. ;) 2015-04-04T05:16:51Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-04-04T05:16:58Z pjb: For example, (let ((x (list 1 2 3))) (eq x (nreverse x))) -> T 2015-04-04T05:17:29Z |3b| supposes clisp is an example of FLOAT-DIGITS + precalculated constants not being enough to distinguish float types as easily 2015-04-04T05:17:35Z pjb: (let ((x (list 3 2 1))) (eq x (sort x (function <)))) -> T ; too. 2015-04-04T05:17:40Z |3b|: since one or more of them are variable at runtime 2015-04-04T05:17:55Z beach: pjb: It reverses the elements rather than the CONS cells? 2015-04-04T05:18:26Z pjb: actually, it keeps the first and last cons cells in place. The middle is cdr-chain changed. 2015-04-04T05:18:27Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T05:18:36Z beach: pjb: Interesting! 2015-04-04T05:19:01Z pjb: It's nice, but it lets newbies go by with non-conforming code, so mixed. 2015-04-04T05:19:15Z beach: Sure, I can see that. 2015-04-04T05:19:32Z beach: |3b|: What do you mean by that? 2015-04-04T05:19:46Z |3b|: you can change the size of long-float in clisp 2015-04-04T05:19:57Z pjb: Only LONG-FLOATs can have different float-digits. 2015-04-04T05:20:00Z beach: Oh, for LONG-FLOAT. OK. 2015-04-04T05:20:01Z pjb: The only float types are fixed. 2015-04-04T05:20:09Z pjb: s/only/other/ 2015-04-04T05:20:27Z |3b|: right, but if that is conformant, some hypothetical other implementation could vary others as well :) 2015-04-04T05:20:30Z pjb: Oh, there's one thing, PI changes precisions as long floats :-) 2015-04-04T05:20:45Z pjb: So it's not a real constant anymore. 2015-04-04T05:20:55Z |3b|: clhs pi 2015-04-04T05:20:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pi.htm 2015-04-04T05:21:08Z pjb: It's a documented extension. 2015-04-04T05:22:43Z pjb: Now of course, the lisper wants to keep his sanity, so he will set (EXT:LONG-FLOAT-DIGITS) only once, at the beginning of the program. 2015-04-04T05:23:36Z harish joined #lisp 2015-04-04T05:24:18Z beach: So perhaps the main "problem" is just that people perceive software that is constantly modified as being "maintained" and software that isn't as "not maintained". It wouldn't surprise me if so. We have the same problem with the Common Lisp language. 2015-04-04T05:24:31Z pjb: This is the case. 2015-04-04T05:25:46Z beach: There is an easy "fix" to that problem though. Just make regular releases changing a docstring or a comment every time. 2015-04-04T05:26:46Z |3b| had the impression some people felt there were unaddressed bugs, so not just "stable" lack of releases 2015-04-04T05:27:29Z beach: |3b|: That's what I am trying to figure out. If so, someone must have reported a bug that was not addressed. 2015-04-04T05:27:37Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-04T05:28:25Z beach: pjb: As you know, I am often advocating the easy fix to such problems, rather than having interminable discussions with people as to why they should not think the way they do. 2015-04-04T05:28:33Z pjb: Well, granted, there are a few issues that have accumulated since last release. I guess we only need some motivated lisper to write the patches. 2015-04-04T05:28:53Z harish quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-04T05:31:03Z burtons: clhs open 2015-04-04T05:31:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_open.htm 2015-04-04T05:32:44Z beach: pjb: True. In fact, I discovered one the other day. 2015-04-04T05:32:50Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-04T05:33:14Z pjb: there are 75 open bugs in clisp and 21 feature requests. 2015-04-04T05:33:16Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-04T05:33:35Z beach: So there is an official repository for it? 2015-04-04T05:34:10Z pjb: There's a mercurial repository at sf.net: http://sourceforge.net/projects/clisp/ 2015-04-04T05:35:21Z beach: Does Sourceforge use GIT? 2015-04-04T05:35:28Z |3b|: it can 2015-04-04T05:35:39Z pjb: Each project can choose. 2015-04-04T05:36:49Z |3b|: looks like clisp chose mercurial :/ 2015-04-04T05:37:00Z beach: I am usually incompetent when it comes to parsing web pages. Is there a button that I am missing that gives access to the repository? 2015-04-04T05:37:12Z pllx joined #lisp 2015-04-04T05:37:37Z |3b|: http://sourceforge.net/p/clisp/clisp/ci/default/tree/ 2015-04-04T05:37:39Z pjb: beach: http://sourceforge.net/p/clisp/clisp/ci/default/tree/ 2015-04-04T05:37:53Z beach: Now, how did you find that? 2015-04-04T05:38:02Z |3b|: under "mercurial" link in row of links under name of project 2015-04-04T05:38:06Z pjb: There's a bar of buttons near the top. Mercurial is on the right. 2015-04-04T05:38:19Z |3b|: sourceforge trends to randomly rearrange things and make them hard to find though 2015-04-04T05:38:31Z pjb: All web sites do that. 2015-04-04T05:38:31Z beach: Got it. 2015-04-04T05:38:51Z |3b|: true :/ 2015-04-04T05:39:07Z beach: So perhaps one thing to do to show activity would be to move CLISP to GIT and perhaps to GitLab? 2015-04-04T05:39:34Z pjb: That would be a good thing probably. 2015-04-04T05:40:00Z pjb: It would take between half a day and a day, to convert the repository and move it to gitlab. 2015-04-04T05:40:14Z |3b|: fewer dead links on the home page would be nice also, found 2 just clicking around 2015-04-04T05:40:27Z pjb: along with the issues, and all the things. 2015-04-04T05:40:56Z beach: |3b|: Do you mean clisp.org? 2015-04-04T05:41:01Z |3b|: yeah 2015-04-04T05:41:14Z beach: Presumably someone pays for clisp.org, right? Does anyone know who that is? 2015-04-04T05:41:37Z |3b| 's random guess would be fsf 2015-04-04T05:42:30Z dfinninger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T05:43:16Z |3b|: but whois suggests maintainer runs it 2015-04-04T05:43:32Z pjb: Pascal Haible admins clisp.org 2015-04-04T05:43:45Z beach: Pascal? Not Bruno? 2015-04-04T05:43:47Z pjb: It's a mirror of clisp.sourceforge.net 2015-04-04T05:43:56Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-04-04T05:43:57Z pjb: That's what's in whois. 2015-04-04T05:44:10Z beach: Hmm. Brother? 2015-04-04T05:44:29Z pjb: probably. 2015-04-04T05:44:51Z beach: I need to check with my wife. She knows Bruno. 2015-04-04T05:45:47Z beach: http://www.haible.de/index.html 2015-04-04T05:46:58Z pjb: If they had an Alain Haible, they would have the same first name as my brotherhood. :-) 2015-04-04T05:47:02Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-04T05:47:02Z Quadrescence: Pascal Brunorguignon 2015-04-04T05:48:54Z guthur joined #lisp 2015-04-04T05:49:21Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T05:50:45Z clop joined #lisp 2015-04-04T05:56:57Z x1n4u joined #lisp 2015-04-04T05:59:13Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-04T05:59:44Z xinau quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-04T06:00:29Z |3b|: and another bad link :/ 2015-04-04T06:05:57Z |3b|: "lack of activity = stable" would be more convincing if there weren't 27 or so unreleased bug fixes in the NEWS file :/ 2015-04-04T06:08:27Z |3b| remembers that the other thing that annoyed me about clisp was 24bit fixnums... don't think i'd care as much on 64 bit though, much less likely to have enough memory for it to matter 2015-04-04T06:12:39Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-04T06:13:18Z beach: Too bad most newbies are mostly interested in making fancy web pages for themselves, and ask questions here that they could find the answer to by reading the Common Lisp HyperSpec. 2015-04-04T06:13:40Z pllx: :) 2015-04-04T06:13:44Z |3b| wouldn't say that is all that bad 2015-04-04T06:14:06Z beach: |3b|: I know. Just had a spell of bitterness there. I'll get over it soon. 2015-04-04T06:14:25Z |3b|: wanting to do something, and attempting to make progress towards that goal is not the worst possible situation :) 2015-04-04T06:15:09Z beach: Right. I guess it's just that #lisp is spoiled by high standards. 2015-04-04T06:15:17Z |3b| still has trouble finding some things in hyperspec, so can't really blame new users who don't even know what they are looking for 2015-04-04T06:15:25Z guthur quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-04T06:17:18Z beach would like to know the name of his third referee. Grumble, grumble! 2015-04-04T06:17:56Z |3b| would like to be on a different sleeping schedule :/ 2015-04-04T06:18:25Z pllx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-04T06:22:04Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-04T06:22:25Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-04T06:23:15Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-04-04T06:23:23Z H4ns left #lisp 2015-04-04T06:23:33Z H4ns joined #lisp 2015-04-04T06:26:12Z a2015 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-04T06:26:57Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-04T06:27:05Z pllx joined #lisp 2015-04-04T06:27:47Z MightyJoe joined #lisp 2015-04-04T06:31:37Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-04-04T06:35:19Z guthur joined #lisp 2015-04-04T06:35:21Z Slothel joined #lisp 2015-04-04T06:35:32Z Slothel: hey guys, real frustrating question 2015-04-04T06:35:45Z beach: pllx: Sorry. I guess you are a newbie. Ignore my remark. 2015-04-04T06:36:22Z Slothel: I downloaded mod_lisp2-1.3.2.c and I'm trying to run (apxs -c -i -a) on it and it fails with rc=65536 error 2015-04-04T06:36:25Z Slothel: and I can't find anything online 2015-04-04T06:36:34Z pllx quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-04T06:37:10Z H4ns: Slothel: do you have a particular reason to want to use mod_lisp? 2015-04-04T06:37:32Z H4ns: Slothel: it has become a rather uncommon route and most people use http and mod_proxy instead. 2015-04-04T06:37:51Z Slothel: H4ns: Using hunchentoot behind apache and I need apache to understand it 2015-04-04T06:38:02Z Slothel: H4ns: this guide says I need it but I honestly wouldn't know 2015-04-04T06:38:05Z H4ns: Slothel: use mod_proxy. mod_lisp is dead. 2015-04-04T06:38:26Z H4ns: Slothel: the relevant configuration options are ProxyPass and ProxyPassReverse iirc 2015-04-04T06:38:33Z burtons: i've been using sb-fastcgi behind nginx and it works quite well 2015-04-04T06:38:49Z s1n4 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-04T06:38:59Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-04T06:41:10Z neckutrek joined #lisp 2015-04-04T06:42:14Z Slothel: I think when I'm finished with this I'll write an update to show other people how to get this configured properly 2015-04-04T06:42:22Z Slothel: because there is a sore need for an update 2015-04-04T06:42:44Z easye joined #lisp 2015-04-04T06:43:03Z dfinninger joined #lisp 2015-04-04T06:43:19Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-04T06:43:30Z H4ns: what lead you to believe that mod_lisp2 is the way to go? 2015-04-04T06:43:49Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-04T06:44:09Z Slothel: H4ns: A guide I was attempting to follow 2015-04-04T06:44:43Z H4ns: Slothel: can you be more specific, or is it a secret guide? 2015-04-04T06:44:43Z Slothel: But it has a lot of outdated information 2015-04-04T06:44:52Z Slothel: H4ns: I can link if you'd like 2015-04-04T06:45:06Z Slothel: H4ns: But it's old 2015-04-04T06:45:10Z Slothel: H4ns: http://newartisans.com/2007/11/running-common-lisp-behind-apache/ 2015-04-04T06:46:04Z H4ns: maybe you want to tell the blog owner to put a note up that says "this is old information and does not work anymore" 2015-04-04T06:46:23Z H4ns: but in general, you would want to follow guides that are no older than 1-2 years, i'd say 2015-04-04T06:46:49Z Slothel: H4ns: Yeah :) I just couldn't find any more recent guide, so maybe I'll write one provided I can get this up and running 2015-04-04T06:47:02Z SAL9000: can anyone recommend a Common Lisp ORM comparable to Perl's Rose::DB::Object ? 2015-04-04T06:47:36Z pjb: SAL9000: cliki.net 2015-04-04T06:47:47Z dfinninger quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-04T06:48:12Z H4ns: Slothel: there is little need for a specific guide, i think. it is common with many setups (i.e. common lisp, rails, django etc) to have a frontend (caching) proxy and one or more backend http servers 2015-04-04T06:48:23Z pjb: SAL9000: http://cliki.net/site/search?query=ORM 2015-04-04T06:48:27Z f3lp joined #lisp 2015-04-04T06:48:27Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-04T06:50:03Z H4ns: Slothel: also, apache is no longer as dominant as it was. maybe the hunchentoot manual should give some more hints as to what one would need to google if "reverse proxy" and "htttp frontend" is not sufficient as hints as to what to do. 2015-04-04T06:51:54Z Slothel: H4ns: is there a more suitable alternative than apache for the front-end? 2015-04-04T06:52:00Z SAL9000: Slothel: I'd recommend NGINX 2015-04-04T06:52:17Z H4ns: Slothel: of course. i use varnish as frontend cache and nginx for ssl 2015-04-04T06:53:12Z H4ns: Slothel: i find varnish to be much easier to configure than nginx, but it is also less popular. you can probably get away with just nginx. 2015-04-04T06:53:13Z Slothel: H4ns: Thanks, I'll def. look into it. I'm lost when it comes to networking 2015-04-04T06:53:59Z H4ns: Slothel: apache with mod_proxy works fine, too. :) 2015-04-04T06:54:00Z pllx joined #lisp 2015-04-04T06:54:51Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-04T06:55:31Z pllx quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-04T06:56:23Z Slothel: H4ns: For the back-end I'm wondering if there's an alternative to Hunchentoot actually, since I'm looking for something potentially that scales very well to lots of users 2015-04-04T06:57:30Z H4ns: Slothel: there are alternatives, but maybe you want to get your feet wet with something that you find easily accessible. 2015-04-04T06:58:43Z H4ns: Slothel: there is a lot more to scalability than the choice of http server, and it is very unlikely that your choice will have a real impact. you need to gather knowledge and experienc yourself so that you can make a judgement on your own. 2015-04-04T06:59:50Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-04T06:59:56Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-04-04T06:59:58Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-04T07:01:53Z Slothel: H4ns: Is it mostly just experience with Lisp that you are referring to or are there any good texts I can read? 2015-04-04T07:02:39Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-04-04T07:04:21Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-04T07:06:34Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-04T07:12:01Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-04T07:13:29Z neckutrek quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T07:14:35Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-04T07:19:39Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-04-04T07:19:58Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-04T07:24:02Z f3lp left #lisp 2015-04-04T07:26:20Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Final version of the paper on first-class global environments uploaded! 2015-04-04T08:28:09Z Shinmera: Only two weeks and a tiddly bit left. 2015-04-04T08:28:16Z beach: Yeah. 2015-04-04T08:28:30Z beach: Less than two weeks until travel for me and my wife. 2015-04-04T08:34:39Z jackdaniel: drmeister: after all I've used almost same code as yours - mind proofreading? - I want to extract pattern and make a macro used on both shiftf and rotatef - http://ix.io/hiS/common-lisp 2015-04-04T08:37:05Z harish joined #lisp 2015-04-04T08:37:11Z drmeister: jackdaniel: I believe this code has the same bug that SBCL has. I ended up using SHIFTF and ROTATEF from SICL. 2015-04-04T08:37:38Z drmeister: beach had a test case that he posted a few days ago that should illustrate the problem. 2015-04-04T08:37:41Z brucem: drmeister: I don't want to be the one to say this, but ... 2015-04-04T08:37:48Z brucem: drmeister: You ought to be asleep, I'm pretty sure. 2015-04-04T08:37:52Z jackdaniel: drmeister: i believe it doesn't have this bug (my version) 2015-04-04T08:38:10Z jackdaniel: i wrap it in multiple-value-prog1 with access form of first form 2015-04-04T08:38:20Z drmeister: brucem: I'm in Vancouver and I had a nap - I'm cool - thanks. 2015-04-04T08:38:39Z brucem: drmeister: ah, timezone change! okay. 2015-04-04T08:39:01Z brucem: I sometimes forget what time it is and accidentally stay awake until too late when working on something. 2015-04-04T08:39:50Z drmeister: jackdaniel: I would try the test case - I don't have it anymore - beach: do you have it? 2015-04-04T08:40:17Z jackdaniel: oh, actually there is a problem 2015-04-04T08:40:32Z jackdaniel: but of different nature 2015-04-04T08:40:37Z jackdaniel: i have this testcase 2015-04-04T08:40:42Z beach: drmeister: I'll be back. I need to discuss the grocery list with my wife before she goes off to the store. 2015-04-04T08:42:23Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-04-04T08:42:46Z jackdaniel: nah, it works correctly 2015-04-04T08:43:02Z jackdaniel: drmeister: testcase is http://paste.lisp.org/display/146587 2015-04-04T08:43:05Z jackdaniel: this you gave me 2015-04-04T08:43:25Z jackdaniel: s/this/that/ 2015-04-04T08:45:45Z dfinninger joined #lisp 2015-04-04T08:47:13Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-04T08:47:29Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-04T08:48:04Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-04T08:48:07Z beach: drmeister: I am back. What's the problem? 2015-04-04T08:48:18Z drmeister: I think it's solved. 2015-04-04T08:48:19Z beach: Oh, SHIFTF. 2015-04-04T08:48:21Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-04T08:48:33Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-04-04T08:50:05Z dfinninger quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-04T08:50:35Z smokeink quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-04T08:51:05Z jackdaniel: ugh, it indents weirdly, i think i forgot to set not using tabs on emacs 2015-04-04T08:52:00Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-04T08:52:01Z vr-rm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-04T08:53:38Z liqu0rice joined #lisp 2015-04-04T08:54:44Z guthur joined #lisp 2015-04-04T08:55:05Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-04T08:56:07Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-04T08:56:22Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-04T08:56:56Z admg joined #lisp 2015-04-04T08:57:10Z drmeister: beach: I moved the CONVERT-FUNCALLS, which inserts the landing-pads before the HIR-TRANSFORMATIONS. Unfortunately that set the targets of each landing-pad a little early because sometimes the HIR-TRANSFORMATIONS would insert some instructions and move the successor of an UNWIND-INSTRUCTION so that the landing-pad targets and the successors of the 2015-04-04T08:57:10Z drmeister: UNWIND-INSTRUCTIONs didn't match up. 2015-04-04T08:58:23Z drmeister: So now I store the UNWIND-INSTRUCTIONS that will unwind to the landing-pad with the landing-pad and generate the targets from the UNWIND-INSTRUCTIONS when they are needed. 2015-04-04T08:58:49Z beach: Yeah. You shouldn't be too quick to add new instructions. 2015-04-04T08:59:14Z drmeister: It appears to have done the trick. 2015-04-04T08:59:21Z beach: Great! 2015-04-04T09:00:10Z drmeister: This new ability to add lexical variables prior to escape analysis is great. 2015-04-04T09:00:23Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-04T09:00:25Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T09:01:01Z d4ryus_ joined #lisp 2015-04-04T09:01:19Z beach: drmeister: It's not new. :) 2015-04-04T09:01:26Z drmeister: New to me. 2015-04-04T09:02:06Z beach: drmeister: Hey! Cleavir is designed so that it can be customized at every stage. A large part of that is thanks to CLOS, of course. 2015-04-04T09:02:23Z chu quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-04T09:04:20Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-04T09:05:54Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-04T09:05:57Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-04T09:06:20Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T09:07:31Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T09:08:10Z vap1 joined #lisp 2015-04-04T09:09:05Z mj-0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-04T09:09:22Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-04T09:10:02Z pawanspace joined #lisp 2015-04-04T09:11:00Z pawanspace quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-04T09:11:50Z drmeister: (clasp-cleavir:cleavir-compile 'foo '(lambda () (declare (core:lambda-name outer)) (tagbody (funcall #'(lambda () (declare (core:lambda-name inner)) (go a))) (print "skip") a (print "done"))) :debug t ) 2015-04-04T09:12:41Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/M887kIc.png 2015-04-04T09:12:52Z drmeister: The landing-pad instruction is about 1/5 of the way down. 2015-04-04T09:12:59Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-04T09:14:56Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-04T09:15:00Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T09:15:06Z guthur quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-04T09:15:15Z beach: So it's working now? 2015-04-04T09:15:34Z drmeister: It generates code that takes a stack pointer and turns it into a tagged fixnum and binds it to a lexical variable. 2015-04-04T09:15:41Z drmeister: I hope so. 2015-04-04T09:16:07Z netroby joined #lisp 2015-04-04T09:16:14Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-04T09:16:31Z beach: What do you do if you have several GO tags in the same function? 2015-04-04T09:16:32Z drmeister: It worked for all my test cases - when I compiled Cleavir/Clasp it crashed about 2/3 of the way through because of the problem I described above with CONVERT-FUNCALLS and landing-pad targets. 2015-04-04T09:17:30Z drmeister: As you know, local go's are just branches. If there are multiple unwinds into the same function the landing-pad will have multiple targets. 2015-04-04T09:17:47Z beach: Oh, so a single landing pad for all the GOs? 2015-04-04T09:17:50Z beach: Got it. 2015-04-04T09:17:52Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-04-04T09:18:13Z drmeister: Surprising (to me) a single landing pad for all GOs and RETURN-FROMs 2015-04-04T09:18:23Z beach: Yes, I see. 2015-04-04T09:19:03Z ggole quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-04T09:19:50Z drmeister: In the future I may implement multiple, nested landing pads for a single function to reduce the number of closures - but that's a project for another day. I'm not even sure it would be valuable. Landing-pads seem to be generated infrequently. 2015-04-04T09:20:10Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-04-04T09:20:19Z beach: I am sure there are many more much more urgent things. 2015-04-04T09:21:50Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2015-04-04T09:22:02Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/Nyf6L8tC/clasp03.pdf 2015-04-04T09:22:15Z drmeister: Here's my pretty close to final draft of my paper. 2015-04-04T09:22:29Z drmeister: The stuff at the bottom left corner of the first page. What should go there? 2015-04-04T09:23:26Z beach: I don't think ELS claims any copyright, so you can put what you want. 2015-04-04T09:23:49Z drmeister: What did you put? 2015-04-04T09:24:24Z beach: Hold on... 2015-04-04T09:24:28Z drmeister: Also, do I submit just the PDF or everything? 2015-04-04T09:24:47Z beach: http://metamodular.com/reverse-order.pdf 2015-04-04T09:24:57Z beach: Just PDF. 2015-04-04T09:25:34Z drmeister: Ok. I'll use what you put in yours. 2015-04-04T09:26:12Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-04T09:26:50Z SAL9000: are CL21 package local nicknames broken? They don't seem to be working in SBCL. 2015-04-04T09:27:37Z beach: SAL9000: Common Lisp doesn't have package-local nicknames. 2015-04-04T09:28:21Z SAL9000: beach: https://github.com/cl21/cl21 supposedly adds them 2015-04-04T09:28:47Z SAL9000: (defpackage :foo (:use (:bar :as :baz))) 2015-04-04T09:28:51Z beach: SAL9000: It is quite hard to add them using only standard Common Lisp features. 2015-04-04T09:29:29Z Shinmera: SBCL has package local nicknames. 2015-04-04T09:29:56Z Shinmera: And I'm guessing CL21 just uses them on the impls that provide them. 2015-04-04T09:30:07Z Shinmera: Or at least tries to 2015-04-04T09:30:24Z SAL9000: Shinmera: CL21 replaces find-package with a version that's aware of it's nicknames. 2015-04-04T09:30:48Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-04T09:32:01Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-04T09:32:07Z Shinmera: Actually, looking at the source of their defpackage, it seems more like they're creating a custom readtable. 2015-04-04T09:32:14Z Shinmera: https://github.com/cl21/cl21/blob/9c0403071aeb70cd6d7d52d3354bb42152c19edc/src/core/package.lisp#L67 2015-04-04T09:32:44Z Shinmera: Nasty imo. 2015-04-04T09:32:46Z SAL9000: fresh readtable is for :use-syntax 2015-04-04T09:34:02Z Shinmera: Not only that. 2015-04-04T09:34:07Z Shinmera: https://github.com/cl21/cl21/blob/9c0403071aeb70cd6d7d52d3354bb42152c19edc/src/core/package.lisp#L261 2015-04-04T09:34:17Z Shinmera: It uses the readtable to fake local nicknames. 2015-04-04T09:34:19Z drmeister: Clasp is currently licensed under the GNU LGPL 2 - I'll probably upgrade that to GNU LGPL 3. 2015-04-04T09:34:30Z Shinmera: drmeister: What's your reasoning for that? 2015-04-04T09:34:36Z wz1000 joined #lisp 2015-04-04T09:34:41Z drmeister: My plan is to allow users to license their libraries however they want. 2015-04-04T09:34:58Z SAL9000: ...okay, ew. And here I thought CL21 found some beautiful enlightened method of doing package nicknames. 2015-04-04T09:35:02Z Shinmera: IIRC (L)GPL3 is a more restricting license than (L)GPL2 2015-04-04T09:35:11Z Shinmera: SAL9000: There isn't one. 2015-04-04T09:35:25Z SAL9000: so messing with (find-package) isn't enough? 2015-04-04T09:35:28Z beach: At least not a portable one. 2015-04-04T09:35:30Z drmeister: Shinmera: What about LGPL2.1 2015-04-04T09:35:33Z Shinmera: Either you use implementation dependant features, or you recreate CL 2015-04-04T09:35:58Z pjb: There's little point of providing a CL21:find-package: nothing prevents the implementation CL:INTERN to use the old CL:FIND-PACKAGE. 2015-04-04T09:36:00Z Shinmera: You can fake package local nicknames using a code-traversing macro. 2015-04-04T09:36:19Z Shinmera: But that also requires you to stick all forms into that macro 2015-04-04T09:36:32Z pjb: Hence you have to rewrite the lisp reader (I've done that). But it's not sufficient. Now you have to rewrite LOAD and COMPILE-FILE and the REPL. 2015-04-04T09:36:37Z SAL9000: okay, so how do you have short package names without polluting the global package namespace? 2015-04-04T09:36:44Z Shinmera: You don't. 2015-04-04T09:36:58Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/u4KP2Izd/clasp05.pdf 2015-04-04T09:37:03Z beach: drmeister: The paper looks ready to go after you take care of the copyright stuff. 2015-04-04T09:37:03Z Shinmera: I just bite the bullet, check quicklisp for existing projects with a name I want to use and if it doesn't exist yet, use it anyway. 2015-04-04T09:37:03Z pjb: That's why libraries MUST NOT use short package names or nicknames. 2015-04-04T09:37:11Z pjb: Only the end-user can add short nicknames. 2015-04-04T09:37:30Z drmeister: I made a few changes suggested by people last night (I went back and looked through the logs). 2015-04-04T09:37:36Z drmeister: Thanks pjb and mood. 2015-04-04T09:38:37Z drmeister: I'm off to bed. I fly back to Philadelphia tomorrow. Cleavir/Clasp is compiling 2015-04-04T09:38:57Z drmeister: If anyone has any further suggestions for the paper - post them here - I'll check the logs. 2015-04-04T09:39:01Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-04-04T09:39:51Z Shinmera: drmeister: Hopefully this won't derail the channel into another license debate, but in case you care about what Linus has to say here's a video of him explaining why he didn't switch the kernel to GPL3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaKIZ7gJlRU 2015-04-04T09:43:02Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-04T09:43:40Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-04-04T09:45:15Z SAL9000: Is there a lexically-scoped variant of IN-PACKAGE? 2015-04-04T09:45:31Z beach: There can't be. 2015-04-04T09:46:09Z beach: The entire top-level form is read before anything in it is processed, so changing the package after the form is read would have no effect. 2015-04-04T09:46:58Z Shinmera: You can do it if you don't mind prefixing your names with a dispatch macro character. 2015-04-04T09:47:12Z SAL9000: (defun the-package:foo) etc. ? 2015-04-04T09:47:32Z Shinmera: ? ? 2015-04-04T09:47:57Z SAL9000: "prefixing your names with a dispatch macro character" 2015-04-04T09:48:04Z SAL9000: I thought you meant using the package::thing syntax 2015-04-04T09:48:06Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-04T09:48:35Z Shinmera: clhs glossary/dispatching macro character 2015-04-04T09:48:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_d.htm#dispatching_macro_character 2015-04-04T09:48:41Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T09:49:11Z Shinmera: The macro character reads the name, transforms it into a different form that the surrounding macro then recognises upon traversal and flips back into the symbol you want. 2015-04-04T09:49:23Z Shinmera: I did something like that in https://github.com/Shinmera/deferred 2015-04-04T09:50:00Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-04-04T09:53:54Z pjb: SAL9000: you can write a reader macro to do that. 2015-04-04T09:54:37Z pjb: SAL9000: eg. {pack-a}(a b c) --> (pack-a::a pack-b::b pack-c::c) 2015-04-04T09:55:00Z pjb: SAL9000: if you want, you can even have pack-a::(a b c) but this requires more reader macros to implement. 2015-04-04T09:55:05Z SAL9000: is it possible to import symbols into a package with a different name? 2015-04-04T09:55:12Z pjb: No, this is silly. 2015-04-04T09:55:22Z Shinmera: You can copy the function definition over. 2015-04-04T09:55:28Z Shinmera: *function object 2015-04-04T09:55:49Z pjb: But again, you can play trick with the reader if you want, to substitute one symbol with another. 2015-04-04T09:55:52Z SAL9000: sure, but doesn't that break CLOS things? 2015-04-04T09:55:55Z pjb: But it's silly. 2015-04-04T09:56:04Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-04-04T09:57:49Z pjb: Also, you can write a macro to forward a function or a macro. 2015-04-04T09:58:40Z SAL9000: what I'm trying to do: say I have a symbol long-package-name:foo. I want to "import" it, with behaviour equivalent to (use-package) and friends, as lpn/foo 2015-04-04T10:00:44Z pjb: SAL9000: http://paste.lisp.org/+3594 2015-04-04T10:01:26Z SAL9000: pjb: would that work correctly with CLOS generic functions and classes? 2015-04-04T10:02:08Z mishoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T10:02:31Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-04-04T10:03:28Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-04T10:04:19Z echo-area quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-04T10:05:16Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-04-04T10:06:23Z pjb: Think about it. 2015-04-04T10:07:25Z pjb: (funcall (intern (concatenate 'string (symbol-name (class-name (class-of object1))) "-POSITION")) object1) 2015-04-04T10:07:35Z pjb: This is why it's silly to want to rename symbols. 2015-04-04T10:07:49Z SAL9000: pjb: okay, so what solution would you recommend? 2015-04-04T10:08:06Z pjb: Don't try to rename symbols. 2015-04-04T10:08:09Z pjb: This is the solution. 2015-04-04T10:08:10Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-04T10:08:41Z pjb: If you're not happy about a symbol name, change the sources! 2015-04-04T10:09:07Z Shinmera: You can add a nickname to a package with RENAME-PACKAGE, but you won't want to do that if you're writing a library for other people to use. 2015-04-04T10:09:58Z Shinmera: Alternatively you can selectively USE the symbols you need with IMPORT-FROM. 2015-04-04T10:10:11Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-04T10:11:42Z Shinmera: There's no free lunch in this case. 2015-04-04T10:11:54Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-04T10:12:15Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-04T10:12:37Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-04T10:16:52Z vap1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-04T10:22:49Z yasha_ is now known as yasha9 2015-04-04T10:24:36Z jackdaniel: it'd be highly inelegant to use in submacro variables introduced in external one? 2015-04-04T10:25:32Z pjb: what is a submacro variable? 2015-04-04T10:26:30Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-04T10:27:10Z jackdaniel: hmm, maybe i said not intelligible - to use in nested macro such variables, which were introduced in external one 2015-04-04T10:27:34Z jackdaniel: to have external macro being anaphoric i mean 2015-04-04T10:27:42Z pjb: Still not clear. What is a nested macro? What is an external macro? 2015-04-04T10:29:09Z pjb: jackdaniel: do you use macrolet by chance? 2015-04-04T10:29:39Z jackdaniel: hmm, I have two macros with the same pattern, therefore i have extracted pattern and put it in one macro 2015-04-04T10:29:54Z jackdaniel: former macros now use newly introduced one 2015-04-04T10:30:01Z jackdaniel: no, I don't 2015-04-04T10:30:32Z wicope quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-04T10:30:54Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-04T10:31:49Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-04T10:33:05Z pjb: (defmacro m (x) (cond ((symbolp x) `(print ',x)) (t `(progn)))) Here, the macro m uses the macro cond. 2015-04-04T10:33:35Z pjb: (defmacro m (x) `(cond ((symbolp x) (print ',x)))) Here, the macro m expands to a macro cond form. 2015-04-04T10:34:11Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-04T10:34:45Z psy_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-04T10:35:40Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-04T10:36:19Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T10:38:00Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-04T10:38:38Z eigenlicht joined #lisp 2015-04-04T10:39:25Z jackdaniel: so I should put variable names shared between macros in lambda-list? like this - http://ix.io/hiU/common-lisp ? 2015-04-04T10:40:36Z pjb: Now, whatever is not a macro in expansions, is only used at run-time (after every expansions are done). 2015-04-04T10:41:27Z vap1 joined #lisp 2015-04-04T10:41:46Z pjb: jackdaniel: doing that is indeed a safe way to introduce variables that will be visible in the body. 2015-04-04T10:42:02Z pjb: It's better than anaphoric macros. 2015-04-04T10:42:38Z jackdaniel: I see uses for anaphores, but here it seemed to me highly inelegant, that's why I asked 2015-04-04T10:42:42Z jackdaniel: thanks 2015-04-04T10:42:55Z pjb: Here, the fact that macro-1 and macro-2 are macros is irrelevant. 2015-04-04T10:43:32Z jackdaniel: yes 2015-04-04T10:43:41Z pjb: On the other hand, you will have to define pattern in a separate file, loaded before compiling the file containing macro-1 and macro-2, or in an eval-when form. 2015-04-04T10:43:52Z eigenlicht quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2) 2015-04-04T10:44:36Z jackdaniel: if they are on the same file they won't expand? 2015-04-04T10:46:22Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T10:46:45Z pjb: If they are on the same file without an eval-when, the compiler won't have the definition of pattern to compile macro-1 and macro-2. 2015-04-04T10:46:51Z pjb: clhs defmacro 2015-04-04T10:46:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmac.htm 2015-04-04T10:47:14Z dfinninger joined #lisp 2015-04-04T10:47:42Z pjb: Sorry, I'm wrong. 2015-04-04T10:48:17Z pjb: defmacro makes the macro available to the following macros too. It's defun that doesn't make the functions available for the macros in the same file. 2015-04-04T10:48:52Z jackdaniel: ok 2015-04-04T10:51:48Z dfinninger quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-04T10:52:50Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-04T10:58:24Z kvsari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T10:58:47Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-04-04T11:04:28Z vap1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-04T11:06:41Z vap1 joined #lisp 2015-04-04T11:07:10Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-04-04T11:09:50Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-04T11:10:04Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I'll tell drmeister when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-04-04T16:16:45Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-04T16:19:12Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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()) 2015-04-04T22:02:58Z Shinmera: That doesn't guarantee to do anything except make find-class unusable. 2015-04-04T22:03:22Z Bike: well that's all you want for GC, to remove the reference. 2015-04-04T22:03:50Z Adlai: you'll still need to remove references to instances and specialized methods, but it's a start 2015-04-04T22:04:22Z Adlai: (there is no guarantee that anything ever is garbage collected, yet somehow it happens) 2015-04-04T22:04:29Z Shinmera: "if the new class given to setf is nil, the class association is removed (but the class object itself is not affected)" 2015-04-04T22:04:32Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T22:04:48Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-04T22:04:48Z Shinmera: There might be references to the class object all over the place. 2015-04-04T22:04:51Z Bike: yes. 2015-04-04T22:04:56Z Bike: the find-class reference is one of them. 2015-04-04T22:05:21Z Bike: whether sbcl keeps classes around even with no methods, no instances, and no find-class, i can't say. 2015-04-04T22:07:13Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-04-04T22:07:57Z Bike: given how labyrinthine its clos is, i wouldn't be confident saying any way without at least some experiment 2015-04-04T22:11:45Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-04T22:13:25Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T22:14:58Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-04T22:16:15Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T22:16:58Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-04T22:18:56Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-04T22:19:02Z wglb joined #lisp 2015-04-04T22:19:50Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-04T22:19:53Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-04T22:20:01Z That_Engineer joined #lisp 2015-04-04T22:21:49Z Vivitron` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T22:22:13Z m-n joined #lisp 2015-04-04T22:22:37Z That_Engineer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T22:23:03Z That_Engineer joined #lisp 2015-04-04T22:23:50Z That_Engineer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T22:24:14Z That_Engineer joined #lisp 2015-04-04T22:25:08Z That_Engineer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T22:28:04Z That_Engineer joined #lisp 2015-04-04T22:28:21Z That_Engineer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T22:28:46Z That_Engineer joined #lisp 2015-04-04T22:31:59Z That_Engineer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T22:33:50Z That_Engineer joined #lisp 2015-04-04T22:35:20Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-04T22:35:27Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-04T22:38:38Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-04T22:39:10Z That_Engineer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T22:40:04Z That_Engineer joined #lisp 2015-04-04T22:43:12Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-04T22:43:55Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-04T22:46:18Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2015-04-04T22:47:33Z ruste joined #lisp 2015-04-04T22:47:51Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-04T22:48:16Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-04T22:49:31Z That_Engineer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-04T22:50:12Z That_Engineer joined #lisp 2015-04-04T22:51:26Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-04T22:53:31Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-04T22:55:53Z steelbird joined #lisp 2015-04-04T23:00:26Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-04T23:02:31Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-05T01:59:05Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-05T02:02:26Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-05T02:09:44Z DalekBaldwin joined #lisp 2015-04-05T02:10:20Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-04-05T02:13:41Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-05T02:21:42Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-05T02:22:19Z beach joined #lisp 2015-04-05T02:22:29Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-04-05T02:22:44Z netrobyatmobile joined #lisp 2015-04-05T02:23:51Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-05T02:24:32Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-05T02:28:44Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-05T02:30:15Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-05T02:30:30Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-04-05T02:31:45Z k-dawg quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-05T02:38:34Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-05T02:39:28Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-05T02:40:05Z beach: drmeister: No, the UNWIND instructions are not eliminated. 2015-04-05T02:40:08Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-05T02:40:18Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-05T02:40:21Z antgreen` quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-05T02:40:58Z Jirachier joined #lisp 2015-04-05T02:43:08Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-05T02:44:39Z Jirachier quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-05T02:45:42Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-05T02:46:02Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-05T02:46:50Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-05T02:47:13Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-05T02:50:13Z drmeister: Hi beach - I finally decided I needed to insert LANDING-PAD-INSTRUCTION(s) just before HIR-TRANSFORMATIONs and then carry out a FINALIZE-UNWIND-AND-LANDING-PAD stage just before translating MIR into LLVM-IR. 2015-04-05T02:50:29Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-05T02:50:57Z beach: OK. 2015-04-05T02:51:31Z drmeister: I don't know what you do in HIR-TRANSFORMATIONS but I guess the only instruction slots that I can depend on being updated properly through transformations are INPUTS, OUTPUTS, SUCCESSORS, PREDECESSORS and INVOCATION - the ones you defined. 2015-04-05T02:53:57Z beach: drmeister: At the moment, HIR transformations do 3 things: 1. It does type inference, which might eliminate some instructions. 2. It eliminates the TYPEQ instruction in favor of calling TYPEP. 3. It processes captured variables and replaces them with cells. 2015-04-05T02:54:05Z drmeister: When I insert the LANDING-PAD-INSTRUCTION(s) early and initialized a list of unwind instructions that would target that landing-pad it appeared that transformations that followed were causing the list of unwind instructions to become out of date. 2015-04-05T02:54:21Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-05T02:54:46Z drmeister: Is there any duplication of HIR? 2015-04-05T02:54:54Z beach: There is no concept of an "out of date" instruction in Cleavir. 2015-04-05T02:55:17Z beach: At the moment, no HIR is duplicated. 2015-04-05T02:55:50Z drmeister: beach: I don't know what's really going on. It's been very frustrating because it only happens in the absolute largest function that I generate and the generated HIR is a monster. 2015-04-05T02:56:29Z drmeister: I've spent the last week chasing down why UNWIND wasn't working properly in a few cases. 2015-04-05T02:57:17Z drmeister: The first problem I discovered I told you about - I needed to create a lexical variable to store a value that uniquely identifies the landing pad on the stack. 2015-04-05T02:57:39Z beach: Right. 2015-04-05T02:58:13Z beach: In the future, in HIR transformations, instructions might get eliminated as a result of type inference making them unreachable. 2015-04-05T02:58:47Z drmeister: The second one was a lot more subtle and I haven't figured out exactly what was wrong. But I wrote some code to write out a text description of the HIR from the compilation of one form because it was too big to graph. 2015-04-05T03:00:03Z drmeister: When I created each LANDING-PAD-INSTRUCTION I would initialize it with a list of UNWIND instructions that unwind to it. 2015-04-05T03:01:03Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-05T03:02:42Z beach: I still don't understand what a landing-pad instruction DOES. 2015-04-05T03:03:26Z drmeister: When it came time to translate the LANDING-PAD-INSTRUCTION into LLVM-IR a successor of an unwind instruction that was associated with a particular LANDING-PAD-INSTRUCTION could not be found in the *TAGS* hash-table - this is a map of the first instruction of each basic-block to a tag. 2015-04-05T03:03:53Z williamyaoh joined #lisp 2015-04-05T03:03:53Z Bike worries that it is COME-FROM 2015-04-05T03:04:09Z drmeister: the landing-pad instruction has one output, which is a lexical variable that identifies the landing-pad. 2015-04-05T03:05:02Z beach: But what does it DO when control flow reaches it? 2015-04-05T03:05:42Z drmeister: A landing-pad instruction generates an LLVM basic-block that is the unwind target of each INVOKE instruction and it provides a branch table that branches to basic-blocks within the function based on an integer index provided by the indexed-unwind instruction. 2015-04-05T03:06:18Z beach: I do not believe that is what happens when control flow reaches it. 2015-04-05T03:06:25Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-04-05T03:06:34Z drmeister: Control-flow only reaches it when an LLVM "invoke" instruction returns via stack-unwinding 2015-04-05T03:07:17Z beach: And what does the landing pad instruction DO when control flow reaches it. What is the result on the state of the processor when a landing-pad instruction is executed? 2015-04-05T03:07:27Z drmeister: There is no way to reach the code generated by the landing-pad unless an exception is thrown in an inner function. 2015-04-05T03:08:00Z drmeister: It branches to a basic block based on an integer index passed in the exception. 2015-04-05T03:08:33Z drmeister: It branches to the successor of the unwind instruction. 2015-04-05T03:09:04Z beach: So it has as many successors as there are unwind instructions? 2015-04-05T03:10:05Z drmeister: Right - except the successors aren't represented in MIR - they are represented only in the generated LLVM-IR. 2015-04-05T03:10:23Z drmeister: As many successors as there are unwind instructions that point into that function. 2015-04-05T03:10:51Z beach: It might be a bad idea not to represent possible control flow as successor arcs. 2015-04-05T03:10:52Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-04-05T03:11:14Z drmeister: I can't just jump into an arbitrary location within a function from another function. 2015-04-05T03:11:53Z drmeister: So I associate each successor instruction of each unwind instruction with a unique integer index 0,1,2,... 2015-04-05T03:11:55Z beach: The landing-pad instruction is in the same function as the successors of the respective unwind-instructions isn't it? 2015-04-05T03:12:51Z drmeister: Then I throw an exception containing that integer (jump-id) and a value that indicates which landing-pad to stop at. The stack unwinds to that landing-pad. The landing-pad uses the jump-id to jump to a particular instruction within the function. 2015-04-05T03:13:12Z beach: The landing-pad instruction is in the same function as the successors of the respective unwind-instructions isn't it? 2015-04-05T03:13:21Z drmeister: Yes. The landing-pad instruction is in the same function as the successors of the respective unwind-instructions that point into that function. 2015-04-05T03:13:45Z beach: So why would you have to "jump into an arbitrary location within a function 2015-04-05T03:13:45Z beach: from another function"? 2015-04-05T03:13:58Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-05T03:14:03Z drmeister: That's what the unwind instruction is supposed to do isn't it? 2015-04-05T03:14:16Z beach: OK, let's try it again. 2015-04-05T03:14:19Z drmeister: Unwind the stack and jump into another function. 2015-04-05T03:14:36Z drmeister: Ok. 2015-04-05T03:15:33Z beach: Why is it that the successors of UNWIND-INSTRUCTIONs that are IN THE SAME FUNCTION as the LANDING-PAD-INSTRUCTION are not represented as control-flow arcs from the LANDING-PAD-INSTRUCTION? 2015-04-05T03:18:14Z drmeister: Uh, they would be. But I thought that Cleavir never generated unwind instructions that had successors within the same function at this point. 2015-04-05T03:18:18Z beach: Follow-up question: Why do you still have UNWIND instructions in there, showing their successor in a different function, when, in fact, control flow now flows through the landing-pad-instruction? 2015-04-05T03:19:05Z beach: Cleavir doesn't generate UNWIND-INSTRUCTIONs with successors in the same function. Why is that related? 2015-04-05T03:19:51Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-04-05T03:20:14Z beach: I didn't say the successor of the unwind instruction is in the same function as the unwind instruction. I said the successor of the unwind instruction is in the same function as the landing pad instruction. 2015-04-05T03:21:15Z drmeister: beach: You taught me that exposing the successors of the landing pad instruction would be a bad idea because it would give the false impression that there were control-flow pathways from every unwind instruction to every successor of the landing pad. 2015-04-05T03:21:28Z zacts: hello #lisp 2015-04-05T03:21:36Z c74d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-05T03:22:01Z beach: drmeister: I guess I did. 2015-04-05T03:22:36Z beach: drmeister: So then I guess we are back to the first question. Why is there a landing-pad instruction? 2015-04-05T03:22:48Z beach: Hello zacts. 2015-04-05T03:22:58Z drmeister: I guess I could do it in MIR after all optimizations have been applied - but I decided not to 2015-04-05T03:23:30Z beach: drmeister: I have a similar fear to that of Bike, i.e., that the landing-pad instruction is not really an instruction. 2015-04-05T03:24:06Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-04-05T03:24:31Z drmeister: I need the landing-pad instruction to generate that lexical variable. It does two very different things (1) it generates a lexical variable and initializes it when the function is entered. (2) it generates the LLVM-IR landing-pad and a branch table. 2015-04-05T03:24:42Z beach: drmeister: Your landing-pad instruction doesn't do anything that is not already done by the unwind-instructions. 2015-04-05T03:25:32Z beach: drmeister: Please, can we distinguish between, say "the role of the landing-pad instruction in code generation" and "what the landing-pad instruction does at run-time"? 2015-04-05T03:25:41Z beach: you keep flipping between the two. 2015-04-05T03:25:53Z beach: The first aspect does not have to be represented as an instruction. 2015-04-05T03:25:58Z beach: The second aspect does. 2015-04-05T03:26:10Z beach: The second aspect is already represented in the unwind-instructions. 2015-04-05T03:26:24Z beach: So I still don't see why there is a landing pad INSTRUCTION. 2015-04-05T03:27:00Z beach: I can see there being a landing pad hash table, a landing pad array, a landing pad list, etc, etc, during code generation. But why is there a landing pad INSTRUCTION? 2015-04-05T03:27:02Z drmeister: You mean a landing pad HIR instruction. 2015-04-05T03:27:21Z drmeister: beach: I'm going to have to leave in a few minutes to catch a plane back to Philadelphia. 2015-04-05T03:27:29Z beach: Yes, everywhere I said INSTRUCTION, I meant HIR instruction. 2015-04-05T03:27:41Z beach: OK. 2015-04-05T03:27:53Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T03:28:49Z drmeister: I'll think on what you said and when I get internet access again I'll try to explain it more clearly. If I don't need it then I'd be happy to get rid of it but I'm pretty sure I need it. 2015-04-05T03:38:38Z That_Engineer quit (Quit: I'm going on an adventure!) 2015-04-05T03:46:42Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-05T03:48:18Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-05T03:51:20Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-05T03:51:59Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-05T03:57:46Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-04-05T03:58:16Z netroby quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T03:58:48Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-05T03:59:40Z huza joined #lisp 2015-04-05T04:00:11Z netroby joined #lisp 2015-04-05T04:04:05Z addict10 joined #lisp 2015-04-05T04:11:17Z {[]}grant joined #lisp 2015-04-05T04:12:35Z {[]}grant: I've come to look into Movitz a bit more as of recent, and the question arised in me as to why it effectively 'died' generally. Is there any background to what happened, or did it just organically loose interest amongst Lisp hackers? 2015-04-05T04:14:17Z troydm quit (Quit: What is hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? (C) Rau Le Creuset) 2015-04-05T04:15:03Z beach: "lose" 2015-04-05T04:15:23Z {[]}grant: beach: Eh, sorry, tired. 2015-04-05T04:15:44Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-05T04:15:51Z beach: {[]}grant: There is not much to it. Consider it a proof-of-concept that it is possible to boot a Lisp system without an OS. That part is a few dozen lines of code at most. 2015-04-05T04:15:58Z {[]}grant: Unless you are commenting that it never had that much interset to start.* 2015-04-05T04:16:05Z brucem: Mezzano is the new hotness, I guess. 2015-04-05T04:16:27Z beach: {[]}grant: Aside from that Movitz is "just" another Common Lisp implementation. 2015-04-05T04:16:45Z {[]}grant: beach: So essentially, it is what "Dream Scheme OS" was? 2015-04-05T04:16:53Z beach: drmeister: As far as I can see, there are two distinct things that need to happen at run-time. Let's call them AA and BB. AA is the action of telling the run-time system which address to jump to in case of an exception (let's call that address CC), plus associating a bunch of small integers with addresses to jump to if that exception happens. Those addresses are successors of unwind-instructions, and let's call them D1, D2, .... 2015-04-05T04:17:08Z beach: drmeister: BB is an action located at address CC. It consists of examining a small integer, and finding the associated Di and jumping to Di. There is no control flow from AA to Di. The connection between AA and Di is a lexical variable that is written by AA and read by the unwind-instruction that has Di as a successor. This connection is all you need, and all you should have. 2015-04-05T04:17:18Z {[]}grant: A Lisp (in that case R5RS Scheme implementation) that runs on the metal? 2015-04-05T04:17:24Z beach: drmeister: That way, if an UNWIND instruction gets removed by some optimization, you will have a variable that is written but not read, and normal optimization can detect that situation and remove the variable. While BB is an action, there should be no instruction associated with it in the HIR graph, because then (as I have said already) you will give the impression of control flow that is not possible. The control flow is adequ 2015-04-05T04:17:24Z beach: represented in the existing UNWIND instructions. 2015-04-05T04:17:31Z beach: drmeister: Clearly, when you generate LLVM code, you need to generate a branch instruction at address CC in the code where small integers are translated to addresses, but that doesn't mean you need an instruction for it in HIR. It should be generated from the MIR code during code generation. 2015-04-05T04:17:39Z {[]}grant: I thought there was some sort of 'kinda-kernel' system inplace with Movitz? 2015-04-05T04:18:22Z {[]}grant: brucem: Has froggey even been able to boot it on their own hardware, is it all vm? 2015-04-05T04:18:24Z beach: {[]}grant: There might be an interrupt handler and such. 2015-04-05T04:19:24Z brucem: {[]}grant: I don't know ... I'm happy with things in a VM / on a hypervisor. But perhaps it would be better to ask if "has been" rather than "has even been" :) His accomplishments so far are great. 2015-04-05T04:19:57Z add1ct10n joined #lisp 2015-04-05T04:20:01Z {[]}grant: brucem: Yeah, it's not to belittle such a project. I just really want Lisp on the 'actual metal'. 2015-04-05T04:21:08Z {[]}grant is interested in implementing some Lisp on the lowRisc board, eventually, so this general area is of relevance to me. 2015-04-05T04:21:11Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2015-04-05T04:21:37Z addict10 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-05T04:23:54Z beach: {[]}grant: It is not hard to get Lisp on "actual metal". The difficulty of a LispOS is elsewhere, i.e., you have to decide what you want it to do and then implement that. A minimal OS "kernel" can be written with very little code. 2015-04-05T04:24:41Z {[]}grant: I was generally looking into old LispM-ish projects generally, and the 'golden rea' of such things ... is it just because theory and practices were so new? Both the code and general dircetory stucturing was very odd/conveluted. 2015-04-05T04:24:55Z add1ct10n: LispOS? is it even possible? 2015-04-05T04:24:57Z beach: To me, froggey's accomplishment is to have written the GUI stuff that his system uses. 2015-04-05T04:25:06Z add1ct10n: i didnt know that lisp compiled 2015-04-05T04:25:10Z {[]}grant: add1ct10n: Ask the 80s. 2015-04-05T04:25:13Z beach: add1ct10n: *sigh* 2015-04-05T04:25:37Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-05T04:25:40Z {[]}grant: add1ct10n: A language is not an implementation. 2015-04-05T04:25:47Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-05T04:25:52Z beach: add1ct10n: Genera, the OS on Lisp machines remains one of the most sophisticated OSes ever built. 2015-04-05T04:26:10Z add1ct10n: {[]}grant what does that mean 2015-04-05T04:26:20Z add1ct10n: beach Oh 2015-04-05T04:26:54Z {[]}grant: add1ct10n: It means, the way a programming language is implmented does not mean certain aspects of said implementation are often inherently tied to the language itself. 2015-04-05T04:27:31Z beach: add1ct10n: Like {[]}grant said, any language can be implemented using interpretation or compilation or a combination between them. 2015-04-05T04:28:23Z beach: add1ct10n: As many others, you probably confuse "generating an executable file" and "compilation". Most modern Common Lisp systems generate native code on the fly as you type forms to the read-eval-print loop (REPL). 2015-04-05T04:28:34Z {[]}grant: In the 'Land of Lisp' (including both CL and Scheme) we more-so have standards, than the now more-common model of the "one true implementation" of anything. You can see a lot of varriance between these. 2015-04-05T04:28:58Z add1ct10n: oh thats too much to take in 2015-04-05T04:29:09Z {[]}grant: add1ct10n: Which bit? 2015-04-05T04:29:12Z add1ct10n: i thought lisp was like a scripting language, interpretting 2015-04-05T04:29:33Z beach: add1ct10n: Again, interpretation or compilation is not a function of the language but of the implementation of the langauge. 2015-04-05T04:29:36Z beach: language 2015-04-05T04:29:45Z beach: Any language can be interpreted or compiled as you wish. 2015-04-05T04:29:47Z add1ct10n: beach yes i get that 2015-04-05T04:30:09Z add1ct10n: and the way lisp is implemented, when is it compiling? I thought in REPL, the code is just interpretted 2015-04-05T04:30:15Z beach: "Lisp" is a language. So it is neither interpreted nor compiled. 2015-04-05T04:30:17Z {[]}grant: add1ct10n: "LISP" is a family of language, that have been around in some-form-or-another since the 1950s. This channel is dedicated to CL, or Common Lisp, one of the two big families in this realm that have been around for sometime. 2015-04-05T04:30:30Z add1ct10n: oh right. I used sbcl 2015-04-05T04:30:37Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-05T04:31:09Z beach: add1ct10n: Again, a modern REPL compiles the code on the fly and then executes the compiled code. 2015-04-05T04:31:12Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-05T04:32:10Z zacts quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-05T04:32:28Z add1ct10n: wow 2015-04-05T04:32:30Z add1ct10n: thats cools 2015-04-05T04:32:31Z beach: add1ct10n: "compilation" means "translate to some other code for a physical or virtual machine". It does not mean "generate a file that you can then start the execution of from your operating system". 2015-04-05T04:32:33Z add1ct10n: cool* 2015-04-05T04:32:34Z add1ct10n: :O 2015-04-05T04:32:49Z add1ct10n: all repl? SML alsos? 2015-04-05T04:33:02Z beach: I am talking about modern implementations of Common Lisp. 2015-04-05T04:33:07Z add1ct10n: oh okaay 2015-04-05T04:33:17Z beach: SML is a language, no? 2015-04-05T04:33:21Z add1ct10n: yes 2015-04-05T04:33:26Z beach: Languages are not compiled or interpreted. 2015-04-05T04:33:33Z beach: How many times do I need to say that? 2015-04-05T04:33:36Z add1ct10n: oh right 2015-04-05T04:33:40Z add1ct10n: i meant repl of SML 2015-04-05T04:33:42Z beach: It is a function of the implementation. 2015-04-05T04:33:57Z beach: Languages don't have REPLs either. 2015-04-05T04:34:05Z beach: Implementations of languages do. 2015-04-05T04:34:16Z add1ct10n: oh! 2015-04-05T04:34:37Z add1ct10n: thats like we are making it too precise right 2015-04-05T04:34:51Z beach: It is a very important distinction. 2015-04-05T04:35:00Z add1ct10n: oh okaayy 2015-04-05T04:35:06Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-05T04:35:12Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T04:35:16Z beach: A language is defined as a specification, not as code. 2015-04-05T04:35:28Z add1ct10n: obviously language itself is nott useful if not implemented then why would someone speak about language itself 2015-04-05T04:35:32Z beach: Like the ISO C standard vs GCC. 2015-04-05T04:35:46Z beach: add1ct10n: Wow. 2015-04-05T04:35:57Z add1ct10n: -_- 2015-04-05T04:36:03Z |3b|: add1ct10n: speaking about all implementations at once tends to be less useful than talking about the language itself 2015-04-05T04:36:04Z add1ct10n: beach: i like lisp community :D 2015-04-05T04:36:04Z beach: add1ct10n: Tell that to the people who wrote the Common Lisp standard. 2015-04-05T04:36:26Z |3b|: so we interpret "lisp", "common lisp" etc to refer to the language 2015-04-05T04:36:37Z add1ct10n: i'm kinda confused, i'lll read 'land of lisp' and get back -_- 2015-04-05T04:37:00Z |3b|: some CL implementations (almost) always compile, some only compile when specifically asked, some only compile to bytecode when asked 2015-04-05T04:37:31Z |3b|: so we can say "sbcl compiles to machine code", or "gnu CLISP uses a bytecode interpreter" 2015-04-05T04:38:09Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-05T04:38:24Z |3b|: but we can't say anything meaningful about what CL does as far as compilation (beyond the specifications requirement of having some concept of "compilation", but that doesn't require anything more than expanding macros) 2015-04-05T04:40:19Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-05T04:40:23Z |3b| can think of 10 or so different CL implementations, most of them make fairly different choices about implementation details, even if they behave more or less the same in terms of the specification 2015-04-05T04:42:22Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-05T04:43:13Z c74d quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-05T04:45:46Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-04-05T04:46:23Z beach: {[]}grant: In general, all you need to run Lisp on "bare metal" is whatever the processor requires from the OS, such as an interrupt handler, page tables, etc. You also need some kind of I/O. On a PC, one can use the VGA interface of the BIOS for that. 2015-04-05T04:47:31Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-05T04:47:44Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-05T04:48:07Z {[]}grant wonders if it'd be somefactor of preferable if he was to persue such a thing on lowRisc, whether to bootstrap from an existing implementation that writes to Asm ... or to write from asm directly the primitives needed to implement such a system. 2015-04-05T04:48:16Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-05T04:48:29Z {[]}grant: That then is extended to write to asm* 2015-04-05T04:49:17Z beach: {[]}grant: That is the same problem as for any other implementation. It is not related to whether you run it on "bare metal" or not. 2015-04-05T04:49:21Z {[]}grant: This would likely be another year-or-two out, so I suppose I 'have the time' to think about it. 2015-04-05T04:49:29Z wemeetagain joined #lisp 2015-04-05T04:49:36Z {[]}grant: beach: Yeah, I was just "thinking out loud". 2015-04-05T04:51:06Z beach: There are basically two ways of thinking. One is that you must boot Common Lisp from assembler or C, so you must gradually build up your system and write all the primitives in assembler or C. The other one is to write your system in Common Lisp and bootstrap it from an existing conforming Common Lisp implementation. 2015-04-05T04:51:45Z beach: Many systems use the first method: ECL, Clasp, CLISP, etc. 2015-04-05T04:52:00Z {[]}grant: beach: Exactly, that is the disction I was trying to verbalize. 2015-04-05T04:52:19Z beach: SBCL mainly uses the second method, but it still has a lot of code for the run-time system written in C. 2015-04-05T04:52:48Z {[]}grant: I have no idea which is exactly preferable; Though it's probably more-so an idealism vs pragmatism issue to a degree at least. 2015-04-05T04:52:53Z beach: The plan for SICL is to have no C code and very little assembly code. 2015-04-05T04:53:15Z beach: I personally can't stand the consequences of the first method. 2015-04-05T04:53:33Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-04-05T04:53:35Z beach: You end up having to write a compiler in a subset of Common Lisp that doesn't use CLOS, etc, etc. 2015-04-05T04:53:57Z beach: You can't use LOOP to implement your macros because you "don't yet have LOOP at that stage.". 2015-04-05T04:54:13Z Bike: not happy about meister's input, eh 2015-04-05T04:54:36Z beach: He did what he had to do. Or at least what he thinks that he had to do. 2015-04-05T04:54:38Z {[]}grant: Does bootstraping hold some "weight" to it? As in, am I wrong to think that there is probable bottlenecks in speed from/for such a method? 2015-04-05T04:55:11Z beach: Bike: I just don't think I have the time and energy to use a lesser language or a subset of Common Lisp to write a compiler. 2015-04-05T04:55:45Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-05T04:55:46Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-05T04:55:49Z Bike: sbcl also has that weird shit with double compiling and cold boot atnd stuff, dunno if that's inherent to the idea 2015-04-05T04:56:02Z beach: {[]}grant: Speed doesn't depend on the method chosen. 2015-04-05T04:56:02Z Bike: {[]}grant: bottlenecks like? 2015-04-05T04:56:15Z {0}` joined #lisp 2015-04-05T04:56:41Z Slothel joined #lisp 2015-04-05T04:56:49Z {0}`: Ping? 2015-04-05T04:56:56Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-05T04:56:56Z Slothel: Sorry for the stupid question, but I can't find the answer online 2015-04-05T04:57:00Z beach: Bike: It is hard to know what SBCL code conforms to the SBCL-specific bootstrapping idea that Newman came up with, and what code is left over from CMUCL. 2015-04-05T04:57:15Z Slothel: How do I run something, specifically hunchentoot, without calling sbcl manually and then loading it? 2015-04-05T04:57:25Z Slothel: I want to run an sbcl process and start hunchentoot at bootup 2015-04-05T04:57:28Z {[]}grant: Brb, buffer is now double printing erc messages... 2015-04-05T04:57:30Z {0}` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T04:57:30Z {[]}grant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T04:57:50Z Bike: beach: yeah, that's what i mean about inherent. like, you say you don't want a compiler without clos but sbcl doesn't anyway because it's so old :p 2015-04-05T04:57:52Z beach: Slothel: something like (save-lisp-and-die :executable t) 2015-04-05T04:58:03Z beach: Slothel: But I can't remember the details. 2015-04-05T04:58:40Z {[]}grant joined #lisp 2015-04-05T04:59:07Z {[]}grant: I guess true, it's more so an issue with them general implementation if/when properly done (bootstrapped). 2015-04-05T04:59:14Z {[]}grant: Is seems to work very well with SBCL. 2015-04-05T04:59:32Z Slothel: beach: Thank you, but I don't understand your advice :(. I've got a ton to learn about SBCL but this seems like it should be simple 2015-04-05T04:59:40Z williamyaoh: Slothel: if you're looking to load/start a Hunchentoot server everytime you startup SBCL, try adding some Lisp code to ~/.sbclrc 2015-04-05T04:59:57Z Slothel: williamyaoh: thank you! 2015-04-05T05:00:05Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-05T05:00:47Z williamyaoh: Something like (require :hunchentoot) (hunchentoot:start (make-instance 'hunchentoot:easy-acceptor :port 5555)) 2015-04-05T05:01:16Z beach: {[]}grant: There are two main differences between the two methods. The first is the ease with which you can write code for reasons of bootstrapping. The second is whether you need an existing Common Lisp system to bootstrap your new system. 2015-04-05T05:02:24Z Bike: Slothel: save lisp and die creates a new executable file on your system, that essentially recreates the SBCL at the time you ran save-lisp-and-die (the "image"). so, if you load in hunchentoot etc., die, and then launch that executable you'll be back in SBCL with hunchentoot. 2015-04-05T05:02:27Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2015-04-05T05:02:27Z attila_lendvai quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-05T05:02:27Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Changing host) 2015-04-05T05:02:27Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2015-04-05T05:03:19Z Slothel: Bike: Oh, that's awesome. Will it save the executable in the same directory I ran SBCL from? 2015-04-05T05:03:51Z williamyaoh: Slothel: You specify the pathname when you make the executable 2015-04-05T05:03:53Z Bike: you provide a filename. check the docs: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Function-sb_002dext_003asave_002dlisp_002dand_002ddie 2015-04-05T05:04:07Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-05T05:04:10Z Slothel: Bike: thanks. 2015-04-05T05:05:05Z {[]}grant still has a whole heck of a lot to do, he supposes, to get to a point where such a differation will matter likely. He's probably a year or-so, to actually get to a point in where implementing any Lisp, CL, Scheme, or otherwise, seems like a worthwhile endeavor. 2015-04-05T05:05:30Z {[]}grant: That being said, it's good to know/hear people's views on these two paradigms of modeling. :^) 2015-04-05T05:05:40Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-05T05:06:31Z |3b|: Bike: i suspect compiling twice is a combination of age and building executables by saving images 2015-04-05T05:06:53Z Bike: er, i guess i should say it only makes the file executable if :executable t, otherwise it's an iamge file you provide to the sbcl runtime bla bla fuckin' bla 2015-04-05T05:07:21Z Bike: |3b|: i just find it confusing. like, first the host lisp builds a sorta-sbcl, then that sorta-sbcl is used to build the product sbcl, i guess? 2015-04-05T05:07:56Z |3b|: right, can't save an sbcl image while running in some other lisp (at least without writing a bunch of extra code just for that specific purpose) 2015-04-05T05:08:19Z |3b|: not to say that extra code wouldn't end up with other uses if it existed though 2015-04-05T05:08:31Z {[]}grant tries to find a purpose for this box, if Movitz is somefactor of 'not worth the effort'. :^P 2015-04-05T05:09:08Z |3b| suspects mezzano is worth more effort at this point 2015-04-05T05:09:37Z {[]}grant: |3b|: Well yeah, but I don't think I have 'the skills' needed to get it booting on my actual hardware. 2015-04-05T05:09:48Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-05T05:10:45Z |3b| finds poking at things you don't understand to be a great way to learn :) 2015-04-05T05:10:47Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-04-05T05:11:28Z {[]}grant: |3b|: True, too I plan to do so ... via a vm, for the time being at least. :^P 2015-04-05T05:11:42Z Slothel: Ok, one quick question to make sure that I understood the documentation. the paramater in quotes directly after the function call and before :executable, do I supply the literal path there? 2015-04-05T05:11:45Z |3b|: Bike: in particular, a lisp with ability to build an image directly would be much more likely to be able to run as a cross compiler 2015-04-05T05:12:02Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-04-05T05:12:04Z williamyaoh: Slothel: Yes. 2015-04-05T05:12:19Z Slothel: williamyaoh: Thanks. Just needed to make sure I understood correctly 2015-04-05T05:12:31Z {[]}grant: Maybe once I get more familar and/or somefactor of what I view as 'deserved confidence' surround such a thing -- I can take that leap with a little more reckless abandon. 2015-04-05T05:12:42Z {[]}grant: surrounding* 2015-04-05T05:13:21Z Slothel: Ah crap. Cannot save core with multiple threads running. Guess its time to hit google again! :P 2015-04-05T05:13:30Z Bike: yeah, don't run it from slime 2015-04-05T05:13:45Z Slothel: Bike: running from xterm/zsh 2015-04-05T05:13:58Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-05T05:14:30Z Bike: huh, weird. what's in (sb-thread:list-all-threads)? did you start something? 2015-04-05T05:14:37Z Bike: oh. i guess you probably started hunchentoot. 2015-04-05T05:15:10Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-05T05:15:59Z Slothel: Bike: the output is hunchentoot-listener- and main thread 2015-04-05T05:19:21Z Slothel: Bike: Figured it out. I just killed all the threads that weren't the current thread 2015-04-05T05:19:47Z Bike: that might make hunchentoot weird. 2015-04-05T05:20:11Z williamyaoh: Yeah, I imagine you want the server to be running when you boot up SBCL? 2015-04-05T05:20:34Z Slothel: williamyaoh: I basically want the server to be running when I boot up arch 2015-04-05T05:23:44Z Slothel: williamyaoh: What confuses me is that other than the hunchentoot listener, the only other thread running is main 2015-04-05T05:23:51Z Slothel: williamyaoh: so I'm not sure how to get around this 2015-04-05T05:25:21Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-05T05:25:21Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-04-05T05:25:21Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-05T05:25:38Z beach: {[]}grant: While I am not the bootstrapping topic: As an example, while the EXPANSION of the SICL LOOP macro does not use any iteration constructs (other than TAGBODY and GO), the EXPANDER uses both LOOP and many things in CLOS. 2015-04-05T05:25:50Z williamyaoh: I mean, I'd suggest either just putting some code in .sbclrc to start Hunchentoot, or editing your crontab if all you want is automatic webserver booting 2015-04-05T05:26:52Z Slothel: williamyaoh: Okay, I'll give that a shot because I'm lost when it comes to this save-lisp-and-die function 2015-04-05T05:27:43Z williamyaoh: Yeah, I'd use it more for making standalone executables or saving images to develop from later 2015-04-05T05:27:50Z beach: |3b|: My current thinking with SICL is to create a graph of SICL objects represented as host objects inside the host, and then to take that graph and create an isomorphic one as a memory image of the target. 2015-04-05T05:28:38Z williamyaoh: Not to suspend a running server to start again later 2015-04-05T05:28:46Z beach: |3b|: That memory image would have to contain enough stuff that it can then load further code from FASL files when run. 2015-04-05T05:31:39Z Slothel: williamyaoh: Forgive my ignorance, I only started learning Lisp last week, but presuming I add the code to .sbclrc, I'll just need to declare sbcl itself as a program to run at startup within linux right? 2015-04-05T05:32:46Z sigjuice joined #lisp 2015-04-05T05:32:54Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-05T05:33:04Z williamyaoh: Slothel: Yup, using crontab or some other method 2015-04-05T05:33:23Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-05T05:40:42Z Slothel: Okay, I'm sure you guys are getting annoyed by all my questions, but the problem is I can't find much online to answer them 2015-04-05T05:40:54Z Bike: don't worry about asking us stuff. 2015-04-05T05:40:54Z Slothel: When I require hunchentoot from within sbcl, it works perfectly 2015-04-05T05:41:00Z H4ns: just keep asking technical questions 2015-04-05T05:41:25Z Slothel: But when I add the same code to my .sbclrc file and then run sbcl, it tells me it doesn't know how to require hunchentoot 2015-04-05T05:41:42Z H4ns: Slothel: use ql:quickload, not require 2015-04-05T05:41:53Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-05T05:42:09Z H4ns: Slothel: you can completely ignore require - that'll give you a better overall experience because you'll never have to wonder why it does not work 2015-04-05T05:42:30Z Bike: Slothel: your sbclrc file probably has code to load quicklisp in it. make sure you quickload hunchentoot after that. 2015-04-05T05:42:39Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-04-05T05:42:53Z Slothel: H4ns: thanks, I'll try that. Just for my own peace of mind, are there any reasons off the top of your head for why the exact same code would function differently in the .sbclrc file 2015-04-05T05:43:06Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-05T05:45:12Z H4ns: Slothel: .sbcl is the place where your naked image gets some initialization 2015-04-05T05:46:26Z H4ns: Slothel: but what are you really trying to do? if you really want to start a web server, put the code to load and start it in a .lisp file and use --load or --script to load it 2015-04-05T05:48:22Z Slothel: H4ns: What I'm trying to do is get Hunchentoot to start automatically when I boot up my computer 2015-04-05T05:48:29Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-05T05:48:31Z Slothel: The next step will be to get hunchentoot to talk to nginx 2015-04-05T05:48:38Z |3b|: Slothel: you can't save an image while hunchentoot is running,and killing threads will probably break things. instead, load but don't start hunchentoot, and specify a :toplevel argument to save0-lisp-and-die, with a function that starts hunchentoot after the new image is loaded 2015-04-05T05:48:46Z Bike: you could put in a crontab/arch whatever/that runs sbcl --load 2015-04-05T05:49:10Z H4ns: Slothel: you could give buildapp a try - it is a nice way to make deployable lisp applications. 2015-04-05T05:49:37Z |3b|: the function you use for :toplevel shouldn't return until you want the program to exit, to start out you can just tell it to sleep indefinitely 2015-04-05T05:50:00Z H4ns: Slothel: .sbclrc is not a good way to start something at boot time. use at least a separate .lisp file like i suggested earlier 2015-04-05T05:50:04Z |3b| also agrees with the buildapp suggestion 2015-04-05T05:50:49Z {[]}grant: /nick {[]}grant 2015-04-05T05:50:57Z {[]}grant: Well, that's double odd. 2015-04-05T05:51:17Z {[]}grant wonders why {0}grant is in use... :^I 2015-04-05T05:53:04Z Slothel: H4ns: Okay, so just to make sure I've been interpreting correctly, I add the same code I would have put in sbclrc to it's own .lisp file, and then just use a cron job or something to execute sbcl --load "myscript.lisp" 2015-04-05T05:53:13Z H4ns: Slothel: correct 2015-04-05T05:53:14Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-04-05T05:53:35Z Bahman quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-05T05:53:45Z Slothel: H4ns: gotcha 2015-04-05T05:53:48Z Slothel: Thanks for all your help guys 2015-04-05T05:53:55Z |3b|: beach: yeah, sounds reasonable for a new implementation, though you have to watch out more for host features contaminating the results if you don't do a double build (for example floating point constants being wrong type if target has more FP types than host) 2015-04-05T05:55:37Z pyon quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-05T05:56:13Z Slothel: Does sbcl have to call anything to load quicklisp? If so, how do I ensure that quicklisp will be loaded before my call to sbcl --load 2015-04-05T05:56:20Z beach: |3b|: Right. 2015-04-05T05:56:31Z Bike: Slothel: it's in your sbclrc 2015-04-05T05:57:20Z xinau joined #lisp 2015-04-05T05:58:42Z H4ns: Slothel: i would not rely on .sbclrc for non-interactive programs 2015-04-05T05:59:20Z H4ns: Slothel: rather, i would load everything from the load.lisp file for the application, including quicklisp. .sbclrc is good to set up the interactive development environment. 2015-04-05T05:59:37Z jackdaniel: {[]}grant: but isn't movitz and mezzano for x86(_64) cpu family? 2015-04-05T05:59:54Z H4ns: Slothel: to ensure that it is not loaded, use --no-userinit 2015-04-05T06:00:15Z jackdaniel: and why not run linux on lowrisc and put some existing lisp implementation there? (ecl, clisp comes in mind) 2015-04-05T06:00:25Z x1n4u quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-05T06:00:31Z H4ns: Slothel: also --non-interactive is good to make sure that your server application does not end up hanging in the debugger when it encounters an error 2015-04-05T06:01:17Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-05T06:01:34Z jackdaniel: you'd have to write sheduler, resource management and interrupt handling at least, unless you want to have toy OS. So you have to write OS kernel and CL implementation capable of running on top of it 2015-04-05T06:02:03Z DalekBaldwin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-05T06:02:38Z {[]}grant: jackdaniel: Movitz is i686, and Mezzano is x86_64 iirc; Why? 2015-04-05T06:02:49Z {[]}grant: Oh, for lowRisc aspirations. 2015-04-05T06:03:02Z jackdaniel: well, lowrisc is cpu architecture on top of fpga, right? 2015-04-05T06:03:28Z {[]}grant: jackdaniel: Correct, implemented in Chisel. 2015-04-05T06:03:31Z jackdaniel: and totally different 2015-04-05T06:03:36Z jackdaniel: then x86 2015-04-05T06:04:06Z jackdaniel: is there any reason you don't want run CL from userspace using existing linux kernel port? 2015-04-05T06:04:23Z {[]}grant: jackdaniel: Yeah, but fielding for ideas and/or genralaties about implementation at that level transcends any one arch me thinks? 2015-04-05T06:04:38Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-04-05T06:04:57Z {[]}grant: jackdaniel: Mainly, to be able to more directly write to and potientally live-edit Chisel via Lisp. 2015-04-05T06:05:05Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-05T06:05:13Z Adlai: Slothel: you can save an image with libraries and your code loaded, and have a startup function which does the last setup for your webserver 2015-04-05T06:05:54Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-04-05T06:06:01Z H4ns: Slothel: buildapp is a tool to aid you in saving the image and packaging it for distribution and deployment. 2015-04-05T06:06:10Z {[]}grant: So you get somesort of LispM environment, where you can potientally live-edit said hardware drivers (as one could in the 'old days) without having to do some real-weird buggering about. 2015-04-05T06:06:16Z {[]}grant: Or just plain having to reboot. 2015-04-05T06:06:42Z jackdaniel: {[]}grant: hmm, you can write minimal driver in kernel mode, which will just act as bridge hardware - CL 2015-04-05T06:06:56Z {[]}grant: jackdaniel: I suppose. 2015-04-05T06:07:06Z jackdaniel: I really like idea behind minix - kernel is supersmall, and drivers are userspace 2015-04-05T06:07:21Z H4ns: jackdaniel: minix still imposes a c api on drivers 2015-04-05T06:07:24Z jackdaniel: so you can write driver in any language w/o hocus pocus 2015-04-05T06:07:58Z H4ns: jackdaniel: it would be so much nicer not having to worry about c data types and calling conventions when writing drivers. 2015-04-05T06:07:59Z jackdaniel: H4ns: yes, but it's api most languages one way or another implement 2015-04-05T06:08:05Z jackdaniel: true that 2015-04-05T06:08:09Z beach: jackdaniel: It is not necessary to write a separate OS kernel. What is traditionally done by the kernel could be done by an integrated system like Common Lisp. 2015-04-05T06:08:19Z {[]}grant: I guess what I really want to see is a FPGA whose gate-lang and general tooling is in Lisp ... I don't see this happening barring home-fabrication becoming trivially cheap though. :^/ 2015-04-05T06:08:24Z H4ns: jackdaniel: "w/o hocus pocus" is a pretty strong statement :) 2015-04-05T06:08:34Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-05T06:08:57Z {[]}grant: There was some talk with that 'Picolisp' board, but I see no real chance of even close to mass-production of such a thing. 2015-04-05T06:09:01Z jackdaniel: H4ns: ok, maybe too strong. But it's still nice idea, and allows writing drivers in cl :) 2015-04-05T06:09:02Z H4ns: {[]}grant: have a look at the plastic cell architecture for some inspiration :) 2015-04-05T06:09:08Z beach: jackdaniel: Furthermore, CLOS would be excellent for writing drivers in. 2015-04-05T06:09:11Z Bike: or xilinx getting hit by several buses 2015-04-05T06:10:04Z jackdaniel: beach: so you in fact write kernel in CL - movitz put only CL afaik, w/o kernel, but allowing to write it *in* CL 2015-04-05T06:10:21Z {[]}grant: I'm hoping in the next 15-20 years the "home fabrication revolution" starts to take place as well as "free/libre/open hardware" generally. 2015-04-05T06:10:26Z jackdaniel: and CLOS might be used regarding minix (and linux with little work and bridge driver) 2015-04-05T06:10:55Z H4ns: jackdaniel: you said "little work" 2015-04-05T06:11:08Z jackdaniel: ok, too strong again :D 2015-04-05T06:11:37Z jackdaniel: not-that-tantamount amount of work 2015-04-05T06:11:52Z jackdaniel: I've got to go, easter breakfast :-) 2015-04-05T06:11:55Z jackdaniel: \o 2015-04-05T06:12:08Z {[]}grant: jackdaniel: Peace. 2015-04-05T06:12:08Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-04-05T06:12:26Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-04-05T06:12:40Z {[]}grant: H4ns: Thanks for the heads up; Just downloaded a paper on it. 2015-04-05T06:13:23Z H4ns: {[]}grant: it is old and i also think it is dead, but it is very interesting nevertheless 2015-04-05T06:13:31Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-04-05T06:14:09Z {[]}grant: What I've found odd, in the realm of the "FPGA Community" is there seems to be no real desire to have these end up as general purpose devices. 2015-04-05T06:14:20Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-04-05T06:14:42Z {[]}grant: Not really related directly, but it does worry me. 2015-04-05T06:15:09Z Bike: is that not what they're already used for 2015-04-05T06:15:31Z {[]}grant: Bike: I meant, as in being thrown into consumer grade devices. 2015-04-05T06:15:51Z H4ns: {[]}grant: i think the ee community is rather conservative. and also, it is more sensitive to efficiency than software engineers 2015-04-05T06:15:57Z Bike: i have an fpga-based oscilloscope that cost me like a hundred bucks. not exactly a general consumer, of course. 2015-04-05T06:16:39Z H4ns: {[]}grant: it is much more efficient to use a cheap general purpose microprocessor than synthesizing one onto an fpga, for example 2015-04-05T06:16:54Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-05T06:16:59Z Bike: yeah, it's hard to imagine fpgas getting down to five bucks a pop. 2015-04-05T06:17:48Z H4ns: {[]}grant: also, coming from an ee perspective, the turnaround times for synthesizing stuff onto an fpga is so low that they are not bothered that much - an hour or two? hey, it used to take months to get something onto silicone 2015-04-05T06:17:58Z {[]}grant: H4ns: True; I'm sure I have general biases too, in that I care deeply -- much more-so than a majority of the individuals of/in software-realm of notions of software freedom that extend outward to be liberarly applied to things like hardware too. 2015-04-05T06:18:11Z H4ns: {[]}grant: whereas we software folks want it to be instantaneous 2015-04-05T06:19:18Z H4ns: {[]}grant: ah well, you'll probably have noticed that very very very few hardware people share any of those sentiments 2015-04-05T06:21:56Z {[]}grant: H4ns: Yeah, communites such as "Opencores" is often few and far between when compared to those in the software-world. That being said, even we don't have /a ton/, but still a factor of x more-so than them. That being said, again, they haven't had any real movement to the effect of "free hardware" ... just residual notions, aptly applied from this field of thought/practice. That being said, I'm hopeful for them -- software freedom beca 2015-04-05T06:21:56Z {[]}grant: formalized when home-computing started to manifest. If/when home-fabrication becomes competitive -- we'll see. 2015-04-05T06:22:32Z {[]}grant: In any case, the next decade or-two should be intresting on this front. 2015-04-05T06:27:20Z |3b|: Bike: pretty sure you can get FPGAs sub-$5, just not nice ones with dev boards and small orders :) 2015-04-05T06:27:41Z Bike: shows what i know :/ 2015-04-05T06:28:11Z |3b| thinks they even end up in consumer stuff, if it won't be a popular enough item to justify a custom chip, or if it will mean low lead time in a market where that is most important thing 2015-04-05T06:29:20Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-04-05T06:29:24Z |3b|: the sub-$5 stuff is probably going to be similar performance ratio to sub-$5 CPUs as the big ones are to comparable cost CPUs though, so maybe arduino range at best 2015-04-05T06:30:07Z |3b|: (though like the bigger ones, special purpose fpga might still win over comparable general purpose asic) 2015-04-05T06:35:04Z |3b|: yeah, really low-end stuff for ~$1-2 in bulk 2015-04-05T06:38:18Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-05T06:41:00Z beach: jackdaniel: I guess you need to define what you mean by "kernel" for me then. 2015-04-05T06:43:37Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-05T06:58:36Z a2015 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-05T07:02:16Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-04-05T07:05:45Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-05T07:07:46Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-05T07:08:27Z jackdaniel: beach: as opposed to baremetal application, kernel is abstraction layer between hardware and software. Therefore it allows running software (which is separate from it) - modern OS would allow many applications running, so scheduler is required - and allocate resources for these applications - /memory/devices/cpu time/, also reacting to interrupts from hardware 2015-04-05T07:09:14Z huza quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-05T07:10:00Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-05T07:10:34Z beach: jackdaniel: Then I don't agree that a kernel is necessary. It's the "separate" requirement that I don't agree with. The Multics operating system didn't have a "kernel" according to this definition. 2015-04-05T07:11:09Z jackdaniel: never read about multics internals, I'm only aware, that such a system existed 2015-04-05T07:12:33Z jackdaniel: ecos is something in between baremetal app and operating system - you link your application to system and compile time, so there is no kernelspace/userspace distinction, but ecos handles everything (resources,interrupts etc), running only one app 2015-04-05T07:14:24Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-05T07:15:53Z beach: In Multics, an interrupt was handled by one of the processes that happened to be executing at the time. That process would then execute the scheduler and dispatcher if necessary. The call chain ended with a single instruction being executed, namely the one that changed the current process to a different one. No separate kernel. 2015-04-05T07:16:42Z zacts: I recently found out about a book called "The UNIX Haters Handbook" 2015-04-05T07:16:46Z zacts: it's actually kind of interesting 2015-04-05T07:16:54Z zacts: it even has a forward by Ken Thompson 2015-04-05T07:16:58Z zacts: well, an anti-forward 2015-04-05T07:17:20Z zacts: they mention multics and other system designs 2015-04-05T07:17:20Z beach: jackdaniel: To anyone who is interested in operating systems, and in particular to those who are going to write one, I strongly suggest studying OS history. We took a giant step backward with Unix and we haven't recovered yet. 2015-04-05T07:18:00Z zacts: I've only skimmed the first chapter of the book, but some of the points made seemed pretty valid to me, even today 2015-04-05T07:18:08Z beach: zacts: Of course. The creators of Unix tried to implement as much as they possibly could from Multics. But you can only go so far on a 16-bit machine. 2015-04-05T07:18:27Z zacts: and the guy who started the UNIX Haters mailing list, was a lisper from MIT who used a LISP OS and emacs 2015-04-05T07:19:30Z zacts: I wonder how posible it would be to implement a multics-like OS in another language than the original multics implementation 2015-04-05T07:19:39Z zacts: I think it was something called PL-80 or something? 2015-04-05T07:19:48Z zacts: PL something, I can't remember, or was it Algol? 2015-04-05T07:20:23Z beach: To connect to the topic, Multics Emacs was the first implementation of Emacs in Lisp, and the condition system of Multics PL/I was the model for the Common Lisp condition system. 2015-04-05T07:20:31Z zacts: oh wow, cool 2015-04-05T07:20:46Z zacts: yeah, I didn't fully realize multics ran the first lispy emacs 2015-04-05T07:21:11Z zacts: beach: anyway, sorry for diverging from the topic a bit... :-) 2015-04-05T07:21:42Z beach: zacts: There is no point in implementing a Multics-like today. They needed processes because the address space was only 36 bits. Now we have 64 bits, so there is no need to have a separate address space for each executing program. 2015-04-05T07:22:07Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-05T07:22:15Z Shinmera quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-05T07:22:19Z zacts: oh interesting 2015-04-05T07:22:31Z beach: zacts: Multics was one of the first OSes written in something other than assembler, namely Multics PL/I. 2015-04-05T07:22:33Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-05T07:22:33Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-04-05T07:22:51Z zacts: beach: are there still any Lisp OS in existance? 2015-04-05T07:22:57Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-04-05T07:22:58Z Shinmera: Good easter morning, #lisp 2015-04-05T07:23:10Z beach: Hello Shinmera. 2015-04-05T07:23:15Z zacts: Shinmera: welcome! Oh, I forgot today is easter 2015-04-05T07:23:59Z beach: zacts: It depends on what you mean by "are". :) Genera certainly exists in some respects. 2015-04-05T07:24:20Z paul0```` joined #lisp 2015-04-05T07:24:45Z zacts: oh cool 2015-04-05T07:24:48Z beach: Have you seen this: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lispos.html 2015-04-05T07:25:53Z zacts: oh no I haven't 2015-04-05T07:25:57Z zacts is reading it now 2015-04-05T07:27:19Z paul0``` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-05T07:30:38Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-04-05T07:30:57Z zacts: really interesting 2015-04-05T07:35:12Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-05T07:36:16Z zacts: thanks for the link beach 2015-04-05T07:37:41Z {[]}grant: zacts: Why would one want to just implement Multics in Lisp though? 2015-04-05T07:38:31Z add1ct10n quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-05T07:38:33Z {[]}grant: I mean, is 'multics-like' really the pinnicale of design before this deemed 'Unix-based design crash'? 2015-04-05T07:39:02Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-05T07:39:08Z zacts: oh I was just curious as if it would be possible to make a multics clone for fun 2015-04-05T07:39:50Z {[]}grant: Well, yeah, just about anything is do-able nowadays if the hardware allows it and assuming the language of use is Turing complete. 2015-04-05T07:39:51Z zacts: personally, I wouldn't attempt to implement a multics clone 2015-04-05T07:40:07Z {[]}grant: It might not be enjoyable to implement though, under certain given contexts. 2015-04-05T07:40:10Z zacts: I would however be interested in maybe trying to make a simple emulated LispOS 2015-04-05T07:40:39Z zacts: (and no I don't mean an emacs clone, please no emacs jokes) 2015-04-05T07:40:58Z {[]}grant: zacts: I'd first shoot for an implementation that runs directly on some aimed hardware and/or arch. 2015-04-05T07:41:08Z zacts: hm.. well I do own a beaglebone black 2015-04-05T07:41:14Z {[]}grant: And also, if I was to mention an Emacs clone ... I would be serious. 2015-04-05T07:41:31Z zacts: that would probably be a target platform for me, if I were to target real hw 2015-04-05T07:42:06Z zacts: I think it's ARMv7 2015-04-05T07:42:23Z {[]}grant: Emacs, under the right circumstances and the right environment backing ... would make a great general OS interface and in a number of ways is somewhat parallel to Genera's. 2015-04-05T07:42:26Z zacts: but I would be happy if I could even get such an OS to boot in qemu 2015-04-05T07:42:38Z zacts: {[]}grant: oh wow, that's interesting 2015-04-05T07:42:50Z {[]}grant: zacts: You might be interested in Armpit Scheme, for general insipration on the Arm front. 2015-04-05T07:42:54Z zacts: oh cool 2015-04-05T07:42:57Z zacts: I'll check it out 2015-04-05T07:42:57Z Adlai: zacts: looks like the haters handbook forward was actually by dennis ritchie 2015-04-05T07:43:17Z zacts: oops, I think I swapped the two names in my mind. Sorry man! 2015-04-05T07:43:48Z {[]}grant: zacts: There's also Dream Scheme OS if you can find it, and obviously as stated before Movitz. Both are i686, though, but it may serve again as a referencing point. 2015-04-05T07:43:57Z zacts: oh cool 2015-04-05T07:44:02Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-05T07:45:12Z zacts: I wonder how the HURD compares with a lisp OS? 2015-04-05T07:45:24Z {[]}grant: lambdapi or similar, is Chibi Scheme on-the-metal of/for The "Raspberry Pi". 2015-04-05T07:45:30Z beach: zacts: Totally different. 2015-04-05T07:45:33Z zacts: ah ok 2015-04-05T07:45:49Z beach: HURD is a traditional kernel for separate processes for each application. 2015-04-05T07:46:12Z beach: But not "traditional" in the sense "monolithic". 2015-04-05T07:47:05Z {[]}grant: I suppose it's due to how easy it is to implement R5RS or similar, but I have noticed (I am at least aware of) more attempts of on-the-metal implementations for/in Scheme. 2015-04-05T07:48:07Z zacts: {[]}grant: technomancy maintains a microscheme that runs on bare metal 2015-04-05T07:48:07Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-05T07:48:19Z zacts: iirc, he used it for the firmware to his atreus keyboard 2015-04-05T07:48:22Z {[]}grant: What I find to be a bummer, a /vast majority/ of books regarding OS design are namely about Unix-likes ... and everything else is a near-if-not-aside. 2015-04-05T07:48:27Z jumblerg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-05T07:48:29Z zacts: {[]}grant: indeed 2015-04-05T07:48:35Z {[]}grant: zacts: Yeah, I was going to ask if it was for his keyboard project. 2015-04-05T07:49:16Z zacts: I do have the Minix3 book, I wanted to eventually work possibly on Operating Systems, but I haven't gotten around to it yet 2015-04-05T07:49:34Z zacts: I want to learn CL and scheme before I tackle C 2015-04-05T07:49:36Z {[]}grant has been playing around with a layout for a 'emacs-friendly' keyboard, needs to look into all that would pertain past the planning stages. 2015-04-05T07:50:12Z zacts: but from what I'm learning from lisp, is that I don't know if I agree with many of the design ideas of C, and as this conversation is bringing to light, the design of the UNIX kernels 2015-04-05T07:50:30Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-04-05T07:50:39Z zacts: so it might be cool to experiment with OS design ideas somehow, which borrow ideas from what I learn from lisp 2015-04-05T07:50:53Z {[]}grant: I've really lost all interest in Unix-likes, besides as basically a means to bootstrap Emacs and those that orbit that ilk at this point. I'm sure once I get out of Uni and have to look for a job ... this will likely change fast, assuming I don't find a way to self employ, but still. 2015-04-05T07:51:11Z zacts: {[]}grant: which OS do you use? 2015-04-05T07:51:13Z pjb: {[]}grant: have you been told about Mezzano? 2015-04-05T07:51:32Z {[]}grant: pjb: Yeah, I'm looking into it more seriously soon. 2015-04-05T07:51:47Z {[]}grant: I have a spare box, which I might try and see if I can get it running on eventually. 2015-04-05T07:51:48Z zacts: but I find it interesting how UNIX-centric these OS books are, when there are alternative designs you could take 2015-04-05T07:52:16Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-05T07:52:20Z zacts: Yeah, I can't yet find dream scheme OS anywhere 2015-04-05T07:52:23Z {[]}grant: I don't have any driver experience generally, I'm sure the lack of information about writing drivers in Lisp certainly "won't be a catalyst". 2015-04-05T07:52:27Z zacts: pjb: oh cool, I'll have to check it out 2015-04-05T07:52:55Z zacts: {[]}grant: I think that someone did try to implement linux kernel drivers using common lisp, but failed to do so. I think it was on stack overflow or something 2015-04-05T07:52:55Z {[]}grant: zacts: It's on "The Wayback Machine". If I was at my main comp, I would send you the bits/bytes I was able to grab. 2015-04-05T07:53:04Z zacts: {[]}grant: oh cool, I can find it then 2015-04-05T07:53:28Z {[]}grant: zacts: I recall a project for scheme to this effect, but not the name. 2015-04-05T07:54:11Z zacts: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12487405/is-it-viable-to-write-a-linux-kernel-mode-debugger-for-intel-x86-64-in-common-li 2015-04-05T07:54:16Z zacts: ^ this was the article 2015-04-05T07:54:26Z zacts: I guess it wasn't a device driver per se 2015-04-05T07:54:35Z {[]}grant: zacts: Ah, not what I recall. 2015-04-05T07:54:59Z {[]}grant: I remember someone writing an audio-driver, or something, via said 'Scheme'. 2015-04-05T07:55:16Z {[]}grant: someone: You're such an active guy; Someone always does something. 2015-04-05T07:55:19Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-05T07:56:25Z Ven quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-05T07:56:34Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-05T07:57:00Z zacts: heh 2015-04-05T07:57:16Z zacts: {[]}grant: maybe someone was using guile scheme bindings on the HURD or something 2015-04-05T07:58:00Z {[]}grant: zacts: Nah, I specifically recall it was regarding Linux. :^P 2015-04-05T07:58:06Z zacts: oh 2015-04-05T07:58:42Z zacts: the symbolics homepage is so classic 2015-04-05T07:59:18Z {[]}grant: Isn't Symbolics' website the oldest commerical website on the "Web"? 2015-04-05T07:59:26Z zacts: oh really? heh, that's kind of hilarious 2015-04-05T07:59:39Z zacts: and they haven't updated it in years, it's like a living fossil 2015-04-05T07:59:48Z zacts: or so it seems 2015-04-05T08:00:14Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T08:02:11Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-05T08:03:26Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-05T08:03:36Z chu quit (Changing host) 2015-04-05T08:03:36Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-05T08:06:24Z zacts: beach: so would a microkernel design even be possible with a true LispOS? I mean if there aren't any processes, how would you run separate services in userspace for core OS functionality? 2015-04-05T08:07:46Z easye quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-05T08:08:38Z {[]}grant: nn, y'all. 2015-04-05T08:08:42Z zacts: gn {[]}grant 2015-04-05T08:08:48Z zacts: I should probably head out soon too 2015-04-05T08:09:54Z beach: zacts: There is no agreed-upon definition of "true LispOS". The normal definition of "process" means separate address spaces. But just like you normally wouldn't write code in assembler or C in an interactive Lisp system, you would not normally do that in a LispOS either. Therefore you don't need protection in the form of separate address spaces. 2015-04-05T08:10:14Z zacts: ah ok, cool 2015-04-05T08:10:41Z zacts: heh, yeah I guess you are correct about the lack of an agreed-upon definition of a "true LispOS" 2015-04-05T08:10:42Z beach: zacts: If someone wanted to write a C or assembly program for the kind of LispOS I am thinking about, that program would also have to run in a separate address space. 2015-04-05T08:11:13Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-05T08:11:38Z beach: ... and instead of using pointers (or "capabilities" as they are called in OS terminology) they would have to be Unix-like "file descriptors", i.e. small integers that you can not do anything with other than call some external service to do something. 2015-04-05T08:11:42Z zacts: well, I'm curious because one of the advertised features that Minix3, for example, is that having separate address spaces for core services can add to reliability? 2015-04-05T08:11:43Z H4ns: also, separation of activities can be implemented without resorting to coarse-grained processes. this has been explored in capability based operating systems for quite a while, but these systems were only research systems 2015-04-05T08:11:59Z zacts: I wonder how one would create similar reliability with a LispOSish system 2015-04-05T08:12:14Z zacts: ah ok 2015-04-05T08:12:35Z beach: zacts: The reason they want that is that they insist that the user should be able to write, compile, and execute programs written in C and assembler. 2015-04-05T08:12:35Z zacts: H4ns: like Coyotos? 2015-04-05T08:12:52Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-04-05T08:13:01Z H4ns: but i wonder what literature it is that makes unix a central topic of operating systems research. i've read meany books on operating systems when i was younger, and most of them treated unix as a successful but rather uninteresting research topic 2015-04-05T08:13:20Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-05T08:13:29Z beach: H4ns: I think the key word here is "when I was younger". :) 2015-04-05T08:13:39Z zacts: lol 2015-04-05T08:13:44Z H4ns: beach: these books do exist today, i think 2015-04-05T08:14:05Z H4ns: just grab an old copy of silberstein & schatz, or of tanenbaums modern operating systems. 2015-04-05T08:14:06Z zacts: what was the OS book with the dinosaur on it? 2015-04-05T08:14:13Z beach: H4ns: I find the modern books or the modern editions of old books to be quite disappointing. 2015-04-05T08:14:18Z H4ns: that's silberstein & schatz's 2015-04-05T08:14:19Z zacts: H4ns: I should get Modern OS by ast 2015-04-05T08:14:28Z zacts: I own the Minix3 book, but not Modern OS 2015-04-05T08:14:31Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-05T08:14:50Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-05T08:14:52Z easye joined #lisp 2015-04-05T08:16:33Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-04-05T08:16:34Z zacts: but back when I got the Minix3 book, I didn't know about Lisp Operating Systems 2015-04-05T08:16:35Z beach: The books I have read are very descriptive: "And then you can do this", "And you can do that too". What I am missing is "This features exists because they had no choice in 1970, but now we do and here are the alternatives" 2015-04-05T08:17:16Z vr-rm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-05T08:18:29Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-05T08:18:52Z beach: They also typically have a fairly large and pointless set of examples of synchronization primitives that may or may not be relevant anymore, such as "dining philosophers". 2015-04-05T08:19:00Z zacts: beach: modern OS books tend to not describe why the designs they teach are the way they are. They just walk through the designs that they teach as they are. 2015-04-05T08:19:16Z beach: Isn't that what I just said? 2015-04-05T08:19:18Z zacts: beach: yes, the minix book has a whole section on the dining philosophers 2015-04-05T08:19:21Z zacts: beach: yeah 2015-04-05T08:19:32Z zacts: sorry, I was just re-iterating what you said 2015-04-05T08:19:36Z beach: OK. 2015-04-05T08:19:58Z zacts: this is the latest edition of the minix book too 2015-04-05T08:22:17Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-05T08:25:22Z beach: OK, back on topic: In SBCL (defpackage "FOO" (:nicknames "BAR") (:NICKNAMES "BAZ")) and then (package-nicknames "FOO") -> ("BAZ") 2015-04-05T08:25:34Z beach: Works in ECL and CLISP. 2015-04-05T08:26:09Z beach: I don't seem to be able to build Clasp anymore, so I haven't checked it. 2015-04-05T08:26:34Z beach: [sorry for the mixed upper and lower case] 2015-04-05T08:33:23Z pjb: beach: of course, sbcl inherits a lot of bugs from cmucl, but it remains incredible the number of conformity bugs it has… 2015-04-05T08:33:37Z pjb: Obviously, ("BAR" "BAZ") or some permutation should be returned. 2015-04-05T08:34:28Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-05T08:34:47Z williamyaoh quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-04-05T08:36:00Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-05T08:36:03Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-05T08:37:18Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-05T08:39:34Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-04-05T08:39:47Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-05T08:39:54Z bjorkintosh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-05T08:41:05Z smokeink quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-05T08:42:19Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-04-05T08:44:13Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-05T08:44:36Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2015-04-05T08:45:08Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-05T08:46:17Z beach: pjb: For that reason, I added an entry into the ANSI test suite. 2015-04-05T08:47:56Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I wrote him an email to see whether he plans to process pull requests or whether I should just go ahead and maintain a clone of his repository of ANSI test suites. 2015-04-05T09:10:47Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-04-05T09:12:25Z ggole quit 2015-04-05T09:14:58Z beach: Does anyone here have any contact with rtoym? 2015-04-05T09:15:42Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-05T09:15:57Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-05T09:17:25Z d4ryus_ is now known as d4ryus 2015-04-05T09:18:28Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-05T09:20:23Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-05T09:22:37Z cross quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-05T09:24:18Z oleo: nope 2015-04-05T09:24:25Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-05T09:24:37Z oleo: he seems to be gone.....somehow..... 2015-04-05T09:24:52Z oleo: morning beach 2015-04-05T09:35:21Z beach: Not a problem. I'll continue pushing to my forked repository in the meantime. 2015-04-05T09:36:12Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/ansi-cl-tests in case anyone wants to contribute. 2015-04-05T09:37:07Z kvsari joined #lisp 2015-04-05T09:39:26Z admg joined #lisp 2015-04-05T09:40:32Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-05T09:44:01Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-05T09:46:01Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-05T09:49:06Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-05T09:50:37Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-05T09:51:57Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Weird in coding now, or make love, only two things push me away from IRC.) 2015-04-05T09:52:04Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T09:53:53Z beach: YAY! Got an answer from rtoym. 2015-04-05T09:54:02Z oleo: oh 2015-04-05T09:54:11Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-05T09:54:21Z oleo: is he on irc or did you get it via mail ? 2015-04-05T09:54:34Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-05T09:56:43Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-05T09:57:19Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-05T09:59:17Z beach: Email. 2015-04-05T10:03:12Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T10:18:27Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-05T10:21:15Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-05T10:24:56Z Ragnaroek joined #lisp 2015-04-05T10:27:29Z kcj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T10:27:47Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-05T10:28:46Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-05T10:29:45Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-05T10:30:39Z Ragnaroek quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-05T10:34:54Z novemberist joined #lisp 2015-04-05T10:38:45Z dfrank joined #lisp 2015-04-05T10:39:00Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-05T10:39:15Z gniourf quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-05T10:40:04Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-04-05T10:40:49Z Pastaf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-05T10:41:19Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-05T10:41:35Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-05T10:41:49Z admg quit (Quit: Bye) 2015-04-05T10:48:25Z novemberist: is there an "easy" way to get text input from the user with lispbuilder-sdl? (i.e. without concatenating millions of key-down-events or something like this) 2015-04-05T10:55:06Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-05T10:56:55Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-05T10:57:19Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-05T11:00:02Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-05T11:03:35Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-05T11:05:10Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T11:09:03Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-05T11:19:11Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-04-05T11:24:26Z Walex joined #lisp 2015-04-05T11:25:47Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-05T11:28:24Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-04-05T11:31:07Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-04-05T11:34:07Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-05T11:43:19Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T11:43:39Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-05T11:46:24Z novemberist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T11:47:04Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-05T11:55:19Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-04-05T11:55:46Z ajtulloc_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T11:56:29Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-05T11:56:48Z hitecnologys_ joined #lisp 2015-04-05T11:57:30Z corehello joined #lisp 2015-04-05T11:59:33Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-05T11:59:33Z hitecnologys_ is now known as hitecnologys 2015-04-05T12:02:06Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-05T12:02:35Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-05T12:11:38Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-05T12:12:23Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-04-05T12:16:19Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T12:19:37Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-05T12:19:38Z DeadTrickster: How to convert string from one encoding to another? 2015-04-05T12:19:53Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: you could use babel 2015-04-05T12:20:16Z DeadTrickster: yes I know I could, I don't know how exactly though ) 2015-04-05T12:20:34Z H4ns: what do you want to achieve, really? 2015-04-05T12:21:27Z DeadTrickster: I have to convert string from utf-8 to cp1251 2015-04-05T12:21:34Z netroby: Does Common Lisp have a up to date Paper about it's language specification? 2015-04-05T12:21:49Z jackdaniel: ,clhs 2015-04-05T12:22:01Z jackdaniel: netroby: Common-Lisp Hyperspec 2015-04-05T12:22:09Z DeadTrickster: https://common-lisp.net/project/babel/ isn't really helpful 2015-04-05T12:22:11Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: well, then first read the string as utf-8 and then write it as cp1251, where is the issue? 2015-04-05T12:22:12Z jackdaniel: language didn't change, it's standard 2015-04-05T12:22:30Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2015-04-05T12:23:15Z netroby: jackdaniel: is it means Common Lisp good enough and do not need any changes or updates? 2015-04-05T12:23:30Z DeadTrickster: H4ns, You mean write to bytes? 2015-04-05T12:23:41Z ivan4th quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-05T12:23:44Z jackdaniel: netroby: Common Lisp is extensible, so you can extend it by yourself, without modyfing specification 2015-04-05T12:23:49Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-05T12:23:49Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: note that you cannot "convert" a string. once you have a string, its encoding is internal to your implementation and you have no say about it. it is only when you input or output it to a stream or to bytes when you get to specify the encoding. 2015-04-05T12:24:07Z DeadTrickster: yes I know 2015-04-05T12:24:15Z DeadTrickster: I'm using clsql to send string to stupid server I really have to pass string to clsql:query 2015-04-05T12:24:24Z jackdaniel: netroby: and specification afaik is really good 2015-04-05T12:24:24Z netroby: Does Common Lisp have some defects? 2015-04-05T12:24:29Z DeadTrickster: and I'm on sbcl 2015-04-05T12:24:51Z jackdaniel: define defect - if you have parentophobia, then it has parens 2015-04-05T12:25:03Z H4ns: netroby: the specification is not perfect, but "defect" is not the right word to describe that imperfection. 2015-04-05T12:25:08Z jackdaniel: if you want to hang yourself, you have enough rope to do it 2015-04-05T12:25:37Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: you need to make sure that clsql:query uses the right encoding. 2015-04-05T12:26:05Z DeadTrickster: Yep I'm trying to figure that out right now 2015-04-05T12:26:07Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T12:27:12Z netroby: Hum, we can see many language have a up to date language specification. I wonder, if there any foundation or groups working on it to get Common Lisp up to date (Develop language or update language specification what ever) 2015-04-05T12:27:34Z H4ns: netroby: common lisp is up to date 2015-04-05T12:28:01Z jackdaniel: netroby: languages get updates, because most languages aren't extensible 2015-04-05T12:28:25Z DeadTrickster: ok it looks like I'm setting windows-1251 as encoding for connection 2015-04-05T12:28:27Z jackdaniel: netroby: ie you can't make syntax for OO in C - you have to write separate compiler for that. It's not the case in CL 2015-04-05T12:29:18Z H4ns: netroby: it would be possible to make a new common lisp standard if there was enough interest, but that interest does not exist. 2015-04-05T12:29:21Z DeadTrickster: btw Cyrillic characters are decoded just fine, when trying to execute query MySQL throws Invalid SQL syntax 2015-04-05T12:29:28Z Bahman quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-05T12:29:39Z Xach: intere$t 2015-04-05T12:29:45Z jackdaniel: Xach: lol 2015-04-05T12:29:52Z DeadTrickster: If I remove all Cyrillic characters from query it goes just fine 2015-04-05T12:30:10Z H4ns: netroby: the existing specification is very good, and it would be rather expensive to make a new "version" of it. that is what "interest" means in this context. 2015-04-05T12:30:13Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-04-05T12:30:35Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-04-05T12:31:25Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-05T12:31:43Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-04-05T12:32:02Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-05T12:33:08Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T12:35:19Z Xach: peter seibel has an excellent talk about why the first standard happened. one way to think of it is: extremely large money source in place threatened to turn off the money supply unless everyone got together to produce a single standard. 2015-04-05T12:35:29Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T12:35:34Z Xach: (There are many other facets involved.) 2015-04-05T12:36:12Z Xach: That process won't happen again, maybe something else will. 2015-04-05T12:36:16Z jackdaniel: Xach: do you have reference to this talk? (I'd love to listen to it) 2015-04-05T12:37:53Z Xach: why yes, I do! https://soundcloud.com/zach-beane/peter-seibel-common-lisp 2015-04-05T12:38:14Z jackdaniel: thank you :-) 2015-04-05T12:39:09Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-05T12:39:12Z psy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T12:46:58Z keen____ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-05T12:47:48Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-05T13:19:42Z Xach: maybe! 2015-04-05T13:20:05Z guest22344: yo 2015-04-05T13:20:17Z guest22344: i am trying to learn common lisp 2015-04-05T13:20:23Z Xach: a noble endeavor 2015-04-05T13:20:33Z guest22344: do you know any repository with examples or anything similar? 2015-04-05T13:20:45Z guest22344: i beleive lisp is best programming language ever 2015-04-05T13:20:51Z guest22344: i like brackets 2015-04-05T13:21:05Z guest22344: and notation 2015-04-05T13:21:08Z Xach: Hmm, https://github.com/google/lisp-koans seems like that. i didn't like them much, but maybe that's because i learned from a few books. 2015-04-05T13:21:25Z guest22344: any books on line for free? 2015-04-05T13:21:30Z Xach: I really like the book Practical Common Lisp for learning Common Lisp. it's online for free. 2015-04-05T13:21:31Z guest22344: thx for the link 2015-04-05T13:21:48Z Xach: there's also https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 2015-04-05T13:21:59Z guest22344: cool thx very much 2015-04-05T13:23:44Z guest22344: maybe a question 2015-04-05T13:23:48Z corehello quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-05T13:23:50Z guest22344: how come lisp aint no 1? 2015-04-05T13:23:57Z guest22344: programmable programming language 2015-04-05T13:23:58Z corehello joined #lisp 2015-04-05T13:24:03Z guest22344: it doesnt get better than that 2015-04-05T13:24:10Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-05T13:24:16Z Xach: It is an eternal mystery 2015-04-05T13:24:35Z guest22344: from what i read 2015-04-05T13:24:55Z guest22344: mcarthy axiomatized programing with lisp 2015-04-05T13:25:03Z netroby: Xach: Is this your blog ? www.xach.com? 2015-04-05T13:25:10Z Xach: netroby: no. it is my website. 2015-04-05T13:25:15Z Ven quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-05T13:25:17Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-05T13:25:45Z netroby: Oh. i like it 2015-04-05T13:25:58Z netroby: The photo is good. 2015-04-05T13:26:12Z Xach: Thanks, but please discuss such non-lispy things via private messages in the future 2015-04-05T13:27:09Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-05T13:28:01Z guest22344: i would like to ask a question about a program 2015-04-05T13:28:07Z guest22344: i am interested in making 2015-04-05T13:28:21Z guest22344: i got like 60k words i would like a program to mix them together by some rules 2015-04-05T13:28:35Z guest22344: is this advanced level or can it be done by a lesser knowledge? 2015-04-05T13:29:34Z guest22344: just asking:) 2015-04-05T13:29:42Z Xach: You can do it with practice and persistence 2015-04-05T13:29:56Z guest22344: ok i understand 2015-04-05T13:30:01Z pllx joined #lisp 2015-04-05T13:30:02Z guest22344: will do 2015-04-05T13:30:15Z guest22344: thx for answers 2015-04-05T13:31:19Z netroby: What's lisp environment were you choice? Why you made choice? I am using SBCL . 2015-04-05T13:32:01Z guest22344: i am still learning emacs:) 2015-04-05T13:32:16Z guest22344: if you ask me:) 2015-04-05T13:32:36Z clop joined #lisp 2015-04-05T13:32:39Z guest22344: but have seen whatr lisp can do and read about it nad did some beginner stuff 2015-04-05T13:32:45Z Xach: netroby: I use SBCL because I started with cmucl and sbcl was very similar. I continue to use it for most things because I'm used to it, because it produces fast code, it's frequently updated, etc 2015-04-05T13:33:28Z Xach: netroby: I also use and like Clozure Common Lisp. It has a fast compiler and has a neat Objective-C bridge for GUI mac programs. 2015-04-05T13:33:55Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-04-05T13:33:58Z cpc26_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-05T13:34:43Z dim: guest22344: have a look at PAIP that contains a good example program on how to do that (mix words given rules) as an introductory material 2015-04-05T13:34:53Z dim: minion: tell guest22344 about paip 2015-04-05T13:34:53Z minion: guest22344: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming 2015-04-05T13:35:17Z dim: http://norvig.com/paip/README.html too 2015-04-05T13:35:29Z netroby: I am using SBCL , because it was the only very activity developed LISP environment. 2015-04-05T13:35:34Z dim: http://norvig.com/paip/simple.lisp in particular 2015-04-05T13:36:04Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-05T13:36:12Z dim: netroby: my guess is that the most active currently is drmeister's clasp ;-) 2015-04-05T13:36:13Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-05T13:36:19Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-05T13:36:24Z Xach: netroby: that is a mistaken impression. clozure cl, abcl, lispworks, allegro, ecl, and sbcl are all actively developed. 2015-04-05T13:36:26Z dim: I would stick with SBCL and CCL tho 2015-04-05T13:36:29Z guest22344: thx dim very much 2015-04-05T13:36:31Z Xach: there are probly more 2015-04-05T13:36:56Z netroby: I am tracking SBCL devlope repo on Github, also quicklisp 2015-04-05T13:37:03Z dim: been a long time since I've been using ccl that said, should try again 2015-04-05T13:38:02Z netroby: the other CL seems had no repository on github 2015-04-05T13:39:34Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-05T13:41:44Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-05T13:44:13Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-05T13:44:22Z Xach: that does not mean much 2015-04-05T13:44:41Z Xach: except perhaps that lisp implementations have been around far longer than github 2015-04-05T13:45:33Z netroby: The latest SBCL release on March 28,2015 2015-04-05T13:46:12Z netroby: So it seems very activity. 2015-04-05T13:46:30Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-05T13:46:34Z netroby: And it's fully free , open sourced. well for us . using or learning 2015-04-05T13:47:15Z netroby: At least for me ,it's better . 2015-04-05T13:48:01Z Xach: That also does not mean much except that sbcl sticks strictly to one release per month regardless of new features or fixed bugs. 2015-04-05T13:48:39Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-05T13:48:41Z Xach: sbcl is great, but i think those metrics are not measuring a lot about what makes it great 2015-04-05T13:48:49Z netroby: Bug fixes were very welcome. let the CL very stable. and more and more stable. 2015-04-05T13:49:39Z netroby: I like the release cycles 2015-04-05T13:50:12Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-05T13:52:07Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-05T13:53:18Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-05T13:55:02Z sysfault quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-05T13:55:21Z sysfault joined #lisp 2015-04-05T13:58:32Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-05T14:01:15Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-05T14:02:14Z dkcl: netroby: Not everyone likes git, or github 2015-04-05T14:02:46Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-05T14:02:59Z netroby: dkcl: Thanks , but i do not care git/github . sbcl always up to date, that's the really good point 2015-04-05T14:03:26Z ehu: netroby: the point is that CCL is actively being developed, but not on github. 2015-04-05T14:03:50Z dkcl: netroby: I only just read the question you asked a bit ago. I use CCL a lot, myself 2015-04-05T14:04:20Z netroby: i see it. 2015-04-05T14:04:37Z netroby: The latest CCL released 2014.09 ? 2015-04-05T14:05:32Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-05T14:06:19Z oleo_ is now known as oleo 2015-04-05T14:07:02Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T14:07:33Z scymtym_: netroby: SBCL development does not exclusively consist of bug fixes (i.e. it is not in "maintenance mode"). addressing shortcomings, improving performance or standard compliance, adding features and porting to new platforms frequently introduces new bugs. regular releases merely increase the likelihood that new bugs are detected quickly, not that the overall number of bugs approaches zero. 2015-04-05T14:07:42Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-04-05T14:09:36Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-05T14:22:31Z netroby quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-05T14:22:59Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-05T14:23:41Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-04-05T14:24:56Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-04-05T14:28:53Z pjb: I don't use sbcl BECAUSE it is "activity developed" and gets montly update. 2015-04-05T14:29:50Z pjb: That ways, I spare a day to update it each month, recompile all my code, correct it to match the montly incompatibilities introduced, etc. 2015-04-05T14:32:57Z pjb: Also: SBCL: 537 open bugs, clisp: 75 open bugs. 2015-04-05T14:35:00Z ehu: pjb: the number of open bugs may be an incorrect measurement of quality too. 2015-04-05T14:35:29Z ehu: for abcl, I'm using the number of working Quicklisp libraries. 2015-04-05T14:35:43Z ehu: which has its weaknesses, but definitely proves usability 2015-04-05T14:36:39Z pjb: ehu: Of course, it's not a scientific study, I'm just mentionning it because sometimes we hear much too unilateral advice about sbcl. 2015-04-05T14:37:12Z pjb: We have different implementations, and this is a bonus when working with CL. 2015-04-05T14:37:25Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-05T14:38:04Z ehu: pjb: agreed. 2015-04-05T14:39:13Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-05T14:39:17Z ziocroc2 joined #lisp 2015-04-05T14:40:44Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-05T14:40:57Z KDr2 joined #lisp 2015-04-05T14:42:08Z KDr2 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-05T14:42:16Z arrubin joined #lisp 2015-04-05T14:44:38Z ivan4th joined #lisp 2015-04-05T14:46:41Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-04-05T14:47:32Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-04-05T14:48:57Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-05T14:50:08Z Wojciech_K joined #lisp 2015-04-05T14:51:31Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-05T14:51:59Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-05T14:53:42Z guicho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T14:59:00Z guest22344 is now known as salamonese 2015-04-05T15:02:32Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2015-04-05T15:02:36Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-04-05T15:03:20Z nell_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-04-05T15:03:43Z nell_ joined #lisp 2015-04-05T15:04:00Z nell_ is now known as k4tzz 2015-04-05T15:04:21Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-05T15:05:37Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-05T15:06:19Z sysfault quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-05T15:11:06Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-05T15:12:04Z jrm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T15:16:36Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-04-05T15:16:37Z jrm quit (Changing host) 2015-04-05T15:16:37Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-04-05T15:17:28Z Phagus joined #lisp 2015-04-05T15:18:07Z corehello quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-05T15:20:01Z sysfault joined #lisp 2015-04-05T15:23:24Z pyx joined #lisp 2015-04-05T15:23:38Z salamonese quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-05T15:23:48Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-05T15:24:43Z dim: given # as per the default print-method (I guess, or maybe the print-pretty-dispatch mechanism), how to get the address ({1004B1A583}) from a lisp object? 2015-04-05T15:24:46Z ziocroc2 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-05T15:24:50Z dim: (in order to print out short debug traces) 2015-04-05T15:25:12Z pllx joined #lisp 2015-04-05T15:25:39Z pjb: dim: princ-to-string and parse it. 2015-04-05T15:25:58Z pjb: "parse" it. That's the only way to do it portably. 2015-04-05T15:26:04Z dim: oh. 2015-04-05T15:26:25Z dim: do you happen to know if SBCL provide something non-portable, it's just to check things while developping, after that I'm done 2015-04-05T15:26:38Z dim: I mean I will remove the code as soon as I have some trust in what I'm doing 2015-04-05T15:27:01Z pjb: sbcl probably has something to get the address of an object. 2015-04-05T15:27:45Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-05T15:28:26Z dim: seems that displaying type-if is giving me enough clues 2015-04-05T15:30:45Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2015-04-05T15:30:56Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-05T15:32:01Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-04-05T15:32:16Z doesthiswork joined #lisp 2015-04-05T15:33:56Z troydm joined #lisp 2015-04-05T15:39:40Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-05T15:40:48Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-04-05T15:45:11Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-04-05T15:46:16Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-05T15:53:29Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-05T15:53:43Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-05T15:54:36Z sheilong quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-05T15:55:13Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-04-05T15:55:22Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-05T15:57:18Z sheilong quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T15:57:29Z Bike: dim: print-unreadable-object? 2015-04-05T15:58:59Z futpib quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-05T16:00:52Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T16:06:42Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-05T16:08:37Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-04-05T16:09:40Z leb joined #lisp 2015-04-05T16:10:26Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-05T16:12:59Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T16:15:16Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-05T16:18:44Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-05T16:19:15Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2015-04-05T16:24:16Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-05T16:25:38Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-05T16:25:44Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-05T16:26:27Z pjb: dim: of course, you can use com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility::object-identity for that. 2015-04-05T16:27:06Z pjb: (Sorry, I assumed you already knew it). 2015-04-05T16:33:37Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-04-05T16:33:45Z dim: I didn't, but I'm good with type-of actually 2015-04-05T16:33:50Z dim: out+return: call-site # 2015-04-05T16:33:51Z dim: traversed (CODE FUN PACKAGE-BODY) 2015-04-05T16:33:51Z dim: ... 2015-04-05T16:34:29Z dim: I keep the code tree traversed nodes to be able to then inject code that the right point in the tree, for some transformations 2015-04-05T16:35:28Z dim: I have a walk-apply function (that maybe should be named walk-funcall actually, now I that think of its implementation) that knows how to walk the code tree depending on the specific nodes, and now knows to keep structural nodes in this traversal 2015-04-05T16:35:46Z dim: next is to modify a list of nodes and inject a new node at the right place 2015-04-05T16:35:57Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-05T16:36:23Z Baggers joined #lisp 2015-04-05T16:36:49Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T16:37:17Z dim: transforming "if a = funcall(x, y, z) then ..." into "select * into x, y, z, ret from funcall(x, y, z); if a = ret then ..." 2015-04-05T16:37:42Z dim: (because of working with incompatible dialects of a programming language) 2015-04-05T16:40:39Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-05T16:41:37Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-05T16:44:30Z tsumetai` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-05T16:48:16Z k-stz: sbcl has (sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address ) which must be read with base 16: (format t "~16r" (sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address )) 2015-04-05T16:49:01Z k-stz checkout out the PRINT-OBJ implementation ;) 2015-04-05T16:49:14Z wicope joined #lisp 2015-04-05T16:49:14Z wicope quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-05T16:49:41Z wicope joined #lisp 2015-04-05T16:50:35Z dim: thanks k-stz ;-) 2015-04-05T16:50:47Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-05T16:53:17Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-04-05T16:53:27Z dim: out+return: call-site # 2015-04-05T16:53:27Z dim: traversed CODE {100E72D633} FUN {100E72D923} PACKAGE-BODY {100E752413} 2015-04-05T16:53:45Z dim: I expected {100E9230C3} to be the same as FUN {100E72D923} 2015-04-05T16:53:49Z dim: so it's good to have that 2015-04-05T16:58:59Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-05T16:59:06Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-05T17:00:58Z leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-04-05T17:02:56Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-05T17:08:11Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2015-04-05T17:11:08Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-05T17:12:37Z tsumetai joined #lisp 2015-04-05T17:14:15Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T17:15:50Z alpha-: hmm, not really on topic, but question on sxml 2015-04-05T17:16:34Z alpha-: how would html code '

text text bold moretext

' translate into sxml ? 2015-04-05T17:16:45Z JuanDaugherty: it is on topic if it's about s expressions or the lisp pkg 2015-04-05T17:16:59Z alpha-: yeah it is about s-expressions :) 2015-04-05T17:17:47Z alpha-: I understand that for

..

you would do (p "text text") 2015-04-05T17:17:52Z dim: in cl-who it would be (:p "text text" (:b "bold") "moretext") 2015-04-05T17:17:59Z alpha-: hm 2015-04-05T17:18:38Z alpha-: that looks good 2015-04-05T17:18:41Z dim: CL-USER> (cl-who:with-html-output-to-string (s) 2015-04-05T17:18:41Z dim: (:p "text text" (:b "bold") "moretext")) 2015-04-05T17:18:41Z dim: "

text textboldmoretext

" 2015-04-05T17:18:50Z dim: just try it ;-) 2015-04-05T17:18:54Z alpha-: thanks dim 2015-04-05T17:19:39Z Phagus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-05T17:21:56Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-05T17:22:58Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-04-05T17:25:23Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-05T17:25:39Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-05T17:26:25Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-05T17:27:11Z Joreji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T17:27:16Z doesthiswork quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-05T17:27:26Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-05T17:28:44Z shka joined #lisp 2015-04-05T17:28:54Z shka: good evening everyone 2015-04-05T17:31:11Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-05T17:33:29Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-05T17:33:59Z mikaelj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T17:34:14Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2015-04-05T17:39:45Z Jirachier joined #lisp 2015-04-05T17:39:57Z Wojciech_ joined #lisp 2015-04-05T17:40:03Z Jirachier quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-05T17:42:56Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-05T17:43:01Z Wojciech_K quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-05T17:43:13Z pllx joined #lisp 2015-04-05T17:43:37Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-05T17:44:30Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-05T17:45:22Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-05T17:47:58Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-05T17:48:29Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-05T17:50:13Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-05T17:51:21Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-04-05T17:56:14Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-05T17:56:32Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-05T17:57:39Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2015-04-05T17:58:19Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2015-04-05T18:46:07Z holomorphic: if fset didn't shadow so many symbols in CL it would be perfect for me 2015-04-05T18:46:31Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-05T18:49:40Z clop joined #lisp 2015-04-05T18:50:28Z XtC is now known as XgF 2015-04-05T18:50:59Z XgF is now known as Guest77281 2015-04-05T18:51:14Z Guest77281 is now known as orz 2015-04-05T18:51:50Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-05T18:52:11Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-05T18:54:22Z pjb: holomorphic: use it as fset:set etc. 2015-04-05T18:54:24Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-04-05T18:54:38Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-05T18:55:48Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-05T18:56:33Z shka: holomorphic: perhaps functional data structures? 2015-04-05T18:58:57Z orz is now known as XgFgX 2015-04-05T18:59:28Z XgFgX is now known as sammwch 2015-04-05T19:00:39Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-05T19:01:05Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-04-05T19:01:35Z shka: aka fuds 2015-04-05T19:05:13Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T19:06:18Z Patzy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T19:06:27Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-05T19:08:42Z em quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-05T19:09:21Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-05T19:13:26Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-05T19:14:17Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-05T19:14:19Z em joined #lisp 2015-04-05T19:17:46Z holomorphic: cool, I'll check that out 2015-04-05T19:17:59Z holomorphic: thanks! 2015-04-05T19:18:11Z pyon is now known as dysfunc-pyon-al 2015-04-05T19:18:55Z Denommus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-05T19:19:00Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-05T19:19:30Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-05T19:23:36Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-05T19:28:02Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-04-05T19:35:08Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-05T19:36:15Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T19:36:54Z sammwch is now known as heddwch 2015-04-05T19:38:13Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-05T19:39:09Z Wojciech_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-05T19:39:27Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-05T19:40:36Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-05T19:41:21Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-05T19:42:39Z ajtulloc_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-05T19:42:52Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-05T19:47:29Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-05T19:47:51Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-05T19:48:58Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T19:50:12Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-05T19:50:39Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-05T19:56:27Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-04-05T19:57:19Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T19:58:53Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-05T19:58:58Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-05T20:04:06Z ggole quit 2015-04-05T20:06:08Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-05T20:12:11Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-05T20:13:19Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-05T20:13:39Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-05T20:14:14Z manuel__ quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-05T20:14:55Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-04-05T20:17:34Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-05T20:18:57Z Denommus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-05T20:22:11Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-05T20:22:24Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-04-05T20:25:02Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-05T20:26:22Z manuel__ quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-05T20:26:41Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-05T20:31:01Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-05T20:31:20Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-05T20:34:07Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-05T20:36:43Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-05T20:43:22Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2015-04-05T20:46:30Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-05T20:48:07Z arshuni joined #lisp 2015-04-05T20:49:17Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-04-05T20:52:44Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-05T20:53:25Z arshuni: Does anyone know of a lib to plot data on a world map? 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2015-04-05T21:41:18Z Xach: ynix: SBCL is pretty popular 2015-04-05T21:41:20Z {[]}grant: ynix: Of the FLOSS ones, probably SBCL. 2015-04-05T21:41:30Z khisanth_ joined #lisp 2015-04-05T21:41:43Z {[]}grant: Maybe Lispworks, if you were to extend to non-free? Not sure. 2015-04-05T21:42:06Z ynix: Thanks! 2015-04-05T21:42:13Z Xach: I don't think lispworks is more popular by number of users, but it's a popular implementation for commercial projects 2015-04-05T21:42:25Z {[]}grant: Xach: Ah okay, fair. 2015-04-05T21:43:04Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-05T21:44:46Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-05T21:45:03Z _|--|_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-05T21:45:07Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-04-05T21:45:08Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-05T21:46:16Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-05T21:46:42Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-04-05T21:47:50Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-05T22:47:38Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-05T22:47:45Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-05T22:47:47Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Quit: improvements) 2015-04-05T22:48:01Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-04-05T22:49:31Z dim: are there commercial lisp implementation other than lispworks and allegro cl from franz? used to be corman, now open source... anything else I'd have missed? 2015-04-05T22:50:07Z Adlai: scieneer 2015-04-05T22:51:38Z netroby joined #lisp 2015-04-05T22:52:33Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-04-05T22:53:25Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-05T22:54:32Z {[]}grant: dim: Well, "Corman" being opensourced doens't mean it's not a 'commerical implementation'. :^P 2015-04-05T22:54:43Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-05T22:55:12Z dim: yeah right 2015-04-05T22:55:28Z dim: then it gets complex or maybe we should revisit our glossary 2015-04-05T22:55:31Z clop joined #lisp 2015-04-05T22:55:46Z {[]}grant: dim: The word I assume you were looking for, is "Proprietary"? 2015-04-05T22:55:47Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2015-04-05T22:55:53Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-05T22:55:57Z dim: right 2015-04-05T22:56:12Z Adlai: dim: https://www.scieneer.com/scl/ 2015-04-05T22:56:39Z cpc26 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-05T22:57:03Z {[]}grant: I would by into the notion that it is harder to commerically market a software product, when "free'd/opensource'd" but becoming such doesn't negate any ability thereof to be. 2015-04-05T22:57:07Z {[]}grant: buy into* 2015-04-05T22:57:51Z dim: Latest release: 9 Mar 2009 2015-04-05T22:57:58Z dim: it's been a while 2015-04-05T22:59:42Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-05T23:00:39Z vdamewood quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-04-05T23:01:20Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-06T03:32:04Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-06T03:32:35Z beach joined #lisp 2015-04-06T03:32:42Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-04-06T03:33:32Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-06T03:37:47Z wemeetagain joined #lisp 2015-04-06T03:38:18Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-04-06T03:41:35Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-06T03:42:03Z drmeister: Hi beach. 2015-04-06T03:42:17Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-04-06T03:42:48Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T03:43:22Z beach: drmeister: Hi. Back home? 2015-04-06T03:43:26Z LiamH quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-06T03:43:27Z SAL9000: drmeister: cleavir/clasp's SICL submodule points to a commit which is not available in the github repo 2015-04-06T03:44:04Z drmeister: SAL9000: I'll look into it. I'm working with SICL a lot lately. 2015-04-06T03:44:14Z drmeister: beach: Yes - back home. 2015-04-06T03:44:16Z dysfunc-pyon-al quit (Quit: My morality has evaporated under the harsh UV light.) 2015-04-06T03:44:32Z SAL9000: drmeister: to clarify, that's on the 'cleavir' branch. The 'master' branch is OK. 2015-04-06T03:44:33Z drmeister: I ran into a new problem. This one is really tricky. 2015-04-06T03:44:44Z SAL9000: Is the 'master' branch cleavir/clasp or pure clasp? 2015-04-06T03:44:52Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-04-06T03:44:55Z drmeister: SAL9000: Don't use the cleavir branch - it's under active development at the moment. 2015-04-06T03:45:04Z SAL9000: ah, okay. 2015-04-06T03:47:50Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-06T03:48:21Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-06T03:48:22Z beach: drmeister: Before you talk about your new problem, did you see what I wrote in #lisp after you had left to take your flight? 2015-04-06T03:48:27Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T03:48:36Z drmeister: No. 2015-04-06T03:48:54Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-06T03:49:03Z beach: It's probably better to read what I wrote than for me to retype it. 2015-04-06T03:49:04Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-06T03:49:08Z beach: It was a few paragraphs. 2015-04-06T03:49:34Z drmeister: I don't see anything in the irc cloud logs from you between then and now. 2015-04-06T03:49:56Z beach: :( 2015-04-06T03:51:00Z beach: Hold on, I will find it for you. 2015-04-06T03:51:53Z drmeister: I'm looking in the logs 2015-04-06T03:51:55Z drmeister: I found it. 2015-04-06T03:54:09Z moei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-06T03:54:12Z beach: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/15.04.04 at 21:18 2015-04-06T03:54:19Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-06T03:54:26Z netroby joined #lisp 2015-04-06T03:54:41Z moei joined #lisp 2015-04-06T03:57:29Z drmeister: You are describing what I do. 2015-04-06T03:57:36Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-06T03:58:01Z beach: I specifically say that you should not keep a reference from the landing pad instruction to the successors of the unwind instructions. 2015-04-06T03:58:04Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-04-06T03:58:06Z beach: You told me you did. 2015-04-06T03:59:14Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-06T04:00:32Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-06T04:01:22Z drmeister: I did that initially but that led me into trouble. 2015-04-06T04:01:53Z beach: Then you should be fine, and if unwind instructions ever disappear as a result of optimization, you don't have a problem. 2015-04-06T04:02:40Z beach: If that happens, your landing pad instruction will write to a variable that is never used, so that variable will be eliminated before you generate code for your landing pad instruction. 2015-04-06T04:03:07Z drmeister: I keep a reference from the landing-pad instruction to the unwind instructions but I calculate it immediately before I translate the MIR instructions to LLVM-IR. 2015-04-06T04:03:23Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T04:03:33Z beach: you should not keep a reference from your landing pad instruction to the unwind instruction. 2015-04-06T04:03:52Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-04-06T04:04:05Z beach: because unwind instructions might disappear as a result of optimizations. 2015-04-06T04:04:09Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-04-06T04:04:21Z beach: and if they do, you will have a reference to an instruction that does not exist. 2015-04-06T04:04:30Z beach: It is enough to have a reference to the shared variable. 2015-04-06T04:04:53Z drmeister: I calculate the list of unwind instructions associated with each landing pad after all optimizations have been applied. I associate the references with the landing pads because it's easier to generate the code for the landing pads that way. 2015-04-06T04:05:25Z beach: OK. 2015-04-06T04:06:02Z drmeister: Can I tell you about my new problem? 2015-04-06T04:06:10Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-04-06T04:06:12Z drmeister: It's one that is really worrying me. 2015-04-06T04:06:26Z beach: Only if you tell me that this problem no longer exists the way it did a day ago. 2015-04-06T04:06:39Z beach: I can't keep all the active problems in my head. 2015-04-06T04:06:51Z beach: And you never told me that this one was fixed. 2015-04-06T04:06:51Z drmeister: Which problem are you referring to? 2015-04-06T04:06:59Z drmeister: This one is fixed. 2015-04-06T04:07:02Z beach: OK. 2015-04-06T04:07:06Z drmeister: I can compile this: 2015-04-06T04:07:07Z beach: You never told me. 2015-04-06T04:07:42Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T04:08:05Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146817 2015-04-06T04:08:22Z drmeister: We went off on a long discussion about landing pad instructions. 2015-04-06T04:08:38Z drmeister: And if I use (foo 0 5) I get: 2015-04-06T04:09:26Z beach: I need a minute to read and understand the code. I am not quite awake yet. 2015-04-06T04:11:00Z beach: OK, I think I got it. 2015-04-06T04:13:43Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-04-06T04:16:06Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-06T04:17:01Z beach: drmeister: Still there? 2015-04-06T04:18:12Z beach: While waiting for drmeister, I am reading the Examples of this page: 2015-04-06T04:18:15Z beach: clhs typep 2015-04-06T04:18:15Z drmeister: Yeah - I'm still here - I have some family problems I'm dealing with. 2015-04-06T04:18:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_typep.htm 2015-04-06T04:18:35Z beach: Specifically, I am reading the examples with arrays. 2015-04-06T04:19:17Z beach: Is it true that if upgraded-element-type of Ax and Ay are NOT the same, then tye TYPEP examples would return false? 2015-04-06T04:20:12Z beach: Bike: Any opinion? 2015-04-06T04:20:36Z beach: s/tye/the/ 2015-04-06T04:21:07Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-06T04:21:19Z mburke quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-06T04:21:38Z Zhivago: I'm pretty sure that's the case. 2015-04-06T04:21:51Z Zhivago: I remember being annoyed by it, because it's very silly. 2015-04-06T04:21:51Z beach: Zhivago: Great! Thanks! 2015-04-06T04:22:20Z Zhivago: It means that you can't use the type of the array to tell if some type of content can fit in. 2015-04-06T04:22:55Z mburke joined #lisp 2015-04-06T04:23:09Z beach: Right. 2015-04-06T04:23:11Z Zhivago: Really (array X) should be subtype (array Y) is X is a subtype of Y, regardless of whatever upgrading nonsense goes on. 2015-04-06T04:23:26Z Zhivago: If that were just handled by the class protocols ... ah well. 2015-04-06T04:25:53Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T04:26:07Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-06T04:26:13Z Bike: yeah, if they upgrade different they're different sorts of arrays. 2015-04-06T04:26:14Z a2015 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-06T04:26:31Z beach: Thanks! 2015-04-06T04:27:01Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-06T04:27:53Z a2015 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T04:28:12Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T04:29:24Z Bike: it would be nice if there was a type for arrays containing such and such type of elements. 2015-04-06T04:29:25Z drmeister: beach: When I run (foo 0 5) I get: 2015-04-06T04:29:29Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/kJs3PUBW 2015-04-06T04:29:49Z beach: That's correct. 2015-04-06T04:30:33Z drmeister: So I proceed to compile all of Clasp+Cleavir with Clasp+Cleavir and I try to compile things with the new image. 2015-04-06T04:30:42Z drmeister: A new problem surfaces - this one is nasty. 2015-04-06T04:31:03Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-04-06T04:31:26Z jumblerg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-06T04:31:48Z drmeister: The function CLEAVIR-GENERATE-AST::FUNCTION-INFO is not returning what it should - it is returning a list of restarts. 2015-04-06T04:33:05Z drmeister: I have a HANDLER-BIND in my outer code that reads like this: 2015-04-06T04:33:16Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-06T04:33:46Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146818 2015-04-06T04:34:20Z drmeister: CLEAVIR-GENERATE-AST::FUNCTION-INFO is this: 2015-04-06T04:34:46Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146819 2015-04-06T04:35:22Z Kanae joined #lisp 2015-04-06T04:35:47Z theotherstupidgu joined #lisp 2015-04-06T04:35:52Z drmeister: Here's a portion of the output where I TRACE CONVERT, CONVERT-FORM and CLEAVIR-GENERATE-AST::FUNCTION-INFO 2015-04-06T04:35:56Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/TJRj2qiQ 2015-04-06T04:36:04Z Bike: what a weird loop 2015-04-06T04:36:20Z theotherstupidgu quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-06T04:36:45Z theotherstupidgu joined #lisp 2015-04-06T04:37:00Z pjb: - 2015-04-06T04:37:06Z drmeister: Look at line 9 - the output of CLEAVIR-GENERATE-AST::FUNCTION-INFO is not an instance of cleavir-env:global-function-info as it should be. 2015-04-06T04:37:18Z drmeister: It's a list of restarts! Where the heck is that coming from? 2015-04-06T04:37:21Z arrubin quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-06T04:37:37Z drmeister: It throws a real wrench in the works. 2015-04-06T04:38:53Z Bike: i think your parens might be off 2015-04-06T04:39:16Z Bike: hm, maybe not 2015-04-06T04:39:28Z drmeister: Where? I've abbreviated code here - I can provide more code if you want. 2015-04-06T04:39:31Z beach: Bike: What's weird about the loop? 2015-04-06T04:40:13Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-06T04:40:13Z Bike: well, just that it calls itself recursively for some reason. 2015-04-06T04:40:38Z beach: Oh, you are right. 2015-04-06T04:41:15Z beach: I think it should call cleavir-env:function-info. 2015-04-06T04:41:23Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-06T04:42:01Z Bike: dunno what the actual problem is, though. 2015-04-06T04:42:06Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-06T04:42:09Z beach: I don't think so either. 2015-04-06T04:42:24Z Bike: ...maybe your definition of restart-case is wrong? I'm really not sure 2015-04-06T04:42:25Z drmeister: CLEAVIR-GENERATE-AST:FUNCTION-INFO is calling CLEAVIR-ENVIRONMENT:FUNCTION-INFO 2015-04-06T04:42:43Z Bike: i'm referring to the second to last line. 2015-04-06T04:42:46Z beach: drmeister: But not on the next-to-last line. 2015-04-06T04:44:06Z drmeister: Remember how I defined BClasp and CClasp? This code works when it's compiled with BClasp but it fails when I compile it with CClasp 2015-04-06T04:44:07Z beach: That's not a problem though if you never call the SUBSTITUTE restart. 2015-04-06T04:44:16Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-04-06T04:45:00Z drmeister: beach: I don't call the SUBSTITUTE restart. I only ever invoke the 'cleavir-generate-ast:consider-global restart. 2015-04-06T04:45:16Z beach: Right. 2015-04-06T04:45:22Z Bike: yes i was j ust pointing out something i thought was weird but probably unrelated to your problem. 2015-04-06T04:45:26Z impulse- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-06T04:45:44Z beach: Yes. Thanks! 2015-04-06T04:46:04Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-06T04:46:08Z drmeister: I think the code that was generated for CClasp has an error and somehow the wrong value is being returned by the CLEAVIR-ENVIRONMENT:FUNCTION-INFO function. 2015-04-06T04:46:30Z Bike: i'm not sure how to read your backtrace. 2015-04-06T04:46:33Z drmeister: I'm trying to figure out how to debug this. 2015-04-06T04:46:43Z drmeister: Bike: Which backtrace? 2015-04-06T04:46:47Z beach: Yeah, it's weird. 2015-04-06T04:46:55Z Bike: the one you linked on irccloud ten minutes ago. 2015-04-06T04:47:12Z drmeister: This: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/TJRj2qiQ ? 2015-04-06T04:47:19Z Bike: yes 2015-04-06T04:47:20Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-06T04:47:24Z drmeister: That's not a backtrace. 2015-04-06T04:47:30Z drmeister: It's the output from TRACE 2015-04-06T04:47:43Z Bike: okay, well, in any case i don't know how to read it. 2015-04-06T04:47:59Z drmeister: 24> (CLEAVIR-GENERATE-AST::FUNCTION-INFO ...) means the function was entered and the arguments are shown 2015-04-06T04:48:36Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-04-06T04:48:41Z drmeister: 24< (CLEAVIR-GENERATE-AST::FUNCTION-INFO ((#<#1=RESTART.121865896> ...) means the function was exited and returned a list of restarts. 2015-04-06T04:49:14Z Bike: okay, so cleavir-env:function-info is returning nil? 2015-04-06T04:49:33Z drmeister: Yes 2015-04-06T04:49:52Z drmeister: The function is unknown in the lexical and global environment. 2015-04-06T04:50:04Z Bike: ...okay, so the wrong value isn't being returned by it, then. 2015-04-06T04:51:01Z drmeister: So then CLEAVIR-GENERATE-AST::FUNCTION-INFO function signals an error within a RESTART-HANDLER http://paste.lisp.org/display/146819 2015-04-06T04:51:26Z Bike: yes, i mean, you said maybe cleavir-env:function-info was wrong but that doesn't seem to be the case. 2015-04-06T04:52:06Z Bike: the only thing i can think of is something wrong with your restart-case definition. i mean how else do you get the output of compute-restarts? 2015-04-06T04:52:15Z impulse joined #lisp 2015-04-06T04:52:16Z gklimowicz quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-06T04:52:26Z drmeister: No, cleavir-env:function-info is returning the value (NIL) that it should be. It's CLEAVIR-GENERATE-AST:FUNCTION-INFO that is returning the bizarre value (a list of restarts). 2015-04-06T04:52:46Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T04:52:57Z Bike: i know, but you said "I think the code that was generated for CClasp has an error and somehow the wrong value is being returned by the CLEAVIR-ENVIRONMENT:FUNCTION-INFO function" 2015-04-06T04:53:00Z gklimowicz joined #lisp 2015-04-06T04:53:09Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-06T04:53:11Z drmeister: You are assuming that the compiler doesn't have an error. 2015-04-06T04:53:16Z drmeister: I think it does. 2015-04-06T04:54:00Z drmeister: Bike: WHOOPS!!! Sorry!!! 2015-04-06T04:54:06Z Bike: in two lines you said cleavir-env is working correctly and that it isn't, so now i'm just really confused 2015-04-06T04:54:25Z drmeister: Bike: I meant to say "I think the code that was generated for CClasp has an error and somehow the wrong value is being returned by the CLEAVIR-GENERATE-AST:FUNCTION-INFO function" 2015-04-06T04:54:29Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-04-06T04:54:42Z drmeister: I made a typo. 2015-04-06T04:54:52Z Bike: oh. well, yes, if it's returnning a bunch of restarts that's wrong. 2015-04-06T04:54:59Z drmeister: CLEAVIR-ENVIRONMENT:FUNCTION-INFO is returning the correct value. 2015-04-06T04:55:10Z Bike: presumably this defun function-info you have is cleavir-generate-ast:function-info? 2015-04-06T04:55:22Z drmeister: CLEAVIR-GENERATE-AST:FUNCTION-INFO is returning a bunch of restarts when a restart is invoked. 2015-04-06T04:55:43Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-04-06T04:56:02Z Bike: okay, so again the only way i can imagine this happening is if restart-case is wrong. 2015-04-06T04:56:17Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-06T04:57:11Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T04:57:13Z drmeister: But it works fine when it's compiled by BClasp 2015-04-06T04:57:20Z drmeister: And it's the original code from ECL. 2015-04-06T04:57:41Z Bike: What works fine? Restart-case? 2015-04-06T04:57:59Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-04-06T04:58:29Z beach: drmeister: I think you have to try to narrow down the problem. 2015-04-06T04:58:33Z Bike: The fact that a list of restarts is appearing implies something is wrong with that machinery. Can I see the source to restart-case? Just humor me. 2015-04-06T04:58:49Z Bike: a list of restarts is a weird thing, it doesn't happen in user code a lot. 2015-04-06T04:59:27Z drmeister: beach: I've tried constructing some test cases - they've worked flawlessly so far. I haven't reproduced the problem.' 2015-04-06T04:59:45Z drmeister: Bike: Good point - hang on. 2015-04-06T05:00:38Z drmeister: It's long - hang on. 2015-04-06T05:00:58Z beach: drmeister: Well, then you might be able to trace some functions for this particular case, or try to add some calls to FORMAT? 2015-04-06T05:01:01Z Bike: if you just direct me to the source file on github that might be easier. 2015-04-06T05:01:16Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146820 2015-04-06T05:02:01Z drmeister: Hang on - I'll try expanding the restart-case macro 2015-04-06T05:02:12Z Bike: might be easier. 2015-04-06T05:03:49Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-06T05:06:04Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-06T05:06:10Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-04-06T05:09:39Z drmeister: Here's what I get when I expand all the macros in CLEAVIR-GENERATE-AST:FUNCTION-INFO 2015-04-06T05:10:42Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146821 2015-04-06T05:11:58Z drmeister: It should be returning what's on line 46 2015-04-06T05:12:21Z drmeister: That's a weird construct - a nested RETURN-FROM 2015-04-06T05:12:56Z Bike: it's usual for restart-case, actually. 2015-04-06T05:13:38Z Bike: well nothing seems wrong... 2015-04-06T05:14:30Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-04-06T05:16:10Z drmeister: Somehow a list of restarts is leaking out of this function. 2015-04-06T05:16:50Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-06T05:17:12Z drmeister: What does this mean? 2015-04-06T05:17:16Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/D0jNjytU 2015-04-06T05:17:51Z drmeister: Only the inner RETURN-FROM does anything - right? 2015-04-06T05:18:12Z beach: Yes. 2015-04-06T05:18:27Z Bike: yes. the outer return is to go back into the loop if the restart handler doesn't do some other nlx (which it does) 2015-04-06T05:18:28Z {}grant joined #lisp 2015-04-06T05:18:30Z drmeister: I wonder what CClasp will generate if it compiles something like this - testing. 2015-04-06T05:18:58Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T05:19:43Z drmeister: This gives me an idea regarding how to generate a test case. 2015-04-06T05:19:57Z Bike: ugh, i hope i'm being paranoid, it's a really nasty error if i'm right 2015-04-06T05:21:57Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-06T05:23:51Z theotherstupidgu quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-06T05:25:55Z {}grant quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-06T05:26:27Z drmeister: Bike: Give it to me straight doc 2015-04-06T05:26:44Z Bike: you're already imagining compiler bugs. 2015-04-06T05:27:10Z drmeister: I'm writing a f******* compiler - of course I'm imagining compiler bugs 2015-04-06T05:27:41Z drmeister: Please pardon my use of salty asterisks. 2015-04-06T05:27:48Z Bike: compiler bugs affecting the compilation of your compiler, i suppose 2015-04-06T05:28:10Z Zhivago: Probably bugs in the compiler he is debugging. :) 2015-04-06T05:28:12Z Bike: it's just, you know, they're the worst kind. might as well have bad ram while you're at it 2015-04-06T05:28:48Z drmeister: Right - it's nothing I don't deal with every day. 2015-04-06T05:34:34Z drmeister: YES! I have a test-case 2015-04-06T05:34:42Z Zhivago: Hurrah. 2015-04-06T05:42:40Z {0}grant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T05:44:17Z {[]}grant joined #lisp 2015-04-06T05:48:04Z drmeister: Ok. 2015-04-06T05:48:05Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146822 2015-04-06T05:48:28Z drmeister: If I compile this with BClasp and run (doall) --> 'EXPECTED-RESULT 2015-04-06T05:48:46Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-04-06T05:48:50Z drmeister: If I compile this with Cleavir/Clasp and run (doall) --> A freakin' list of restarts. 2015-04-06T05:49:48Z beach: The special variables complicate things. Do you still observe the problem if you try to replace those with something else? 2015-04-06T05:50:01Z beach: More generally, do you think you can condense this example? 2015-04-06T05:50:25Z Bike: i think that's just an expansion of restart case. 2015-04-06T05:50:32Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-06T05:50:33Z Bike: could probably be condensed though, since presumably it's a control flow issue in the compiler. 2015-04-06T05:50:40Z drmeister: I've spent the last 15 minutes whittling it down to this. I thought I'd post it and solicit ideas on how to whittle it down further. 2015-04-06T05:51:07Z Bike: first off i'd kill everything about the condition system. 2015-04-06T05:51:47Z Bike: replace invoke-restart with a funcall of something in *clusters*, for instance 2015-04-06T05:52:53Z keen_____ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-06T05:54:27Z drmeister: I hate to say this at this point but I've got to get to bed. I've had about 4 hours of sleep in the last 36 hours due to a lousy red-eye flight last night. 2015-04-06T05:54:30Z keen_ joined #lisp 2015-04-06T05:54:52Z drmeister: I've been wrestling with this problem for days and at least now I have a test case. 2015-04-06T05:54:52Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T05:55:15Z drmeister: Let's put a pin in this and pick it up tomorrow. 2015-04-06T05:55:40Z beach: Sounds like a good plan. 2015-04-06T05:56:43Z x1n4u joined #lisp 2015-04-06T05:58:45Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-06T05:59:16Z xinau quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-06T06:02:14Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-06T06:05:57Z keen_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-06T06:07:31Z keen_ joined #lisp 2015-04-06T06:12:18Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-06T06:14:00Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-06T06:14:54Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-04-06T06:15:07Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-06T06:15:07Z 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Let me know if you want me to stop. 2015-04-06T13:06:22Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T13:08:03Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-04-06T13:08:17Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-04-06T13:09:05Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-04-06T13:12:21Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-06T13:15:12Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-04-06T13:16:51Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-06T13:20:53Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-06T13:21:58Z housel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-06T13:22:21Z housel joined #lisp 2015-04-06T13:22:43Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2015-04-06T13:22:54Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T13:24:52Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-04-06T13:25:34Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-06T13:25:47Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-04-06T13:26:26Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T13:26:38Z netroby quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T13:33:41Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 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*.split) 2015-04-06T14:00:22Z gravicappa quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-06T14:00:22Z kvsari quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-06T14:00:23Z jackdaniel: already fixed it, but have to run tests to be sure 2015-04-06T14:01:03Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-04-06T14:01:04Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-06T14:01:04Z kvsari joined #lisp 2015-04-06T14:01:12Z metaf5 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T14:02:00Z Guest22314 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T14:04:59Z random__ joined #lisp 2015-04-06T14:05:02Z smokeink quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-06T14:07:07Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I'll continue then. 2015-04-06T14:30:05Z dlowe: dim: yes 2015-04-06T14:30:08Z dim: here the key is a complex structure (with nested structures etc) and the comparator to find it again is eq 2015-04-06T14:30:18Z dim: (setf (gethash key hash-table) nil) then? 2015-04-06T14:30:20Z dlowe: dim: it may be convenient sometimes to set the key and value to the same value 2015-04-06T14:30:23Z sal joined #lisp 2015-04-06T14:30:33Z dim: I'm also wondering about doing that 2015-04-06T14:30:35Z sal: hi geys 2015-04-06T14:30:42Z dim: so that you can use the result of gethash directly I suppose 2015-04-06T14:30:44Z dim: will do that 2015-04-06T14:30:47Z dim: thanks 2015-04-06T14:30:47Z sal is now known as Guest36963 2015-04-06T14:30:47Z Guest36963: how can i get ascii code of charters 2015-04-06T14:30:49Z dlowe: dim: you don't want that, so you can use (gethash key hash-table) and check for nil 2015-04-06T14:30:57Z dlowe: (setf (gethash key hash-table) t) at minimum 2015-04-06T14:31:00Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-06T14:31:04Z dlowe: Guest36963: man ascii 2015-04-06T14:31:17Z dim: dlowe: well multiple-values and all but yes 2015-04-06T14:31:18Z jackdaniel: Guest36963: (char-code #\X) 2015-04-06T14:31:35Z dim: I'll go with (setf (gethash key hash-table) key) 2015-04-06T14:31:53Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: That's not at all guaranteed to give you ASCII. 2015-04-06T14:32:06Z Guest36963: thanxxxx 2015-04-06T14:32:26Z dlowe: nonetheless, it's likely to be the answer the questioner wanted. 2015-04-06T14:32:33Z jackdaniel: indeed, in ansi-c neither, yet he was asking about that 2015-04-06T14:32:46Z nell joined #lisp 2015-04-06T14:32:48Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-06T14:32:53Z jackdaniel: even if he was asking about something else ;D 2015-04-06T14:33:58Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-04-06T14:35:43Z duggiefresh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-06T14:35:44Z duggiefr_ joined #lisp 2015-04-06T14:36:09Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-06T14:38:08Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-06T14:38:41Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-06T14:40:31Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T14:42:17Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-04-06T14:44:09Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-06T14:44:47Z ruste quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-06T14:45:00Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-04-06T14:47:39Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-06T14:49:07Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-06T14:51:14Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-04-06T14:51:36Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-04-06T14:53:13Z Guest36963 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-06T14:53:39Z guicho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T14:55:02Z dfinninger joined #lisp 2015-04-06T14:55:55Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-04-06T14:55:55Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2015-04-06T14:55:55Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-04-06T14:55:58Z gbr1 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T15:00:10Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T15:00:11Z gklimowicz joined #lisp 2015-04-06T15:02:00Z gbr1 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Dispatching on class NIL.> 2015-04-06T16:08:52Z badkins quit 2015-04-06T16:09:23Z dfinninger joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:10:17Z froggey: that error means that it couldn't detect any network card. have you got virtualbox set to emulate a virtio-net nic? should be under the advanced settings on the network config tab 2015-04-06T16:10:47Z Posterdati: virtualbox won't even start the machine 2015-04-06T16:10:53Z froggey: oh 2015-04-06T16:11:09Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:11:22Z Posterdati: A critical error has occurred while running the virtual machine and the machine execution has been stopped. 2015-04-06T16:12:04Z wemeetagain joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:12:19Z dlowe: nice error message 2015-04-06T16:12:28Z froggey: it's qemu giving you the arp timeout message? 2015-04-06T16:12:36Z Posterdati: yes 2015-04-06T16:12:54Z beach: jackdaniel: What repository did you make a pull request for? 2015-04-06T16:13:02Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T16:13:33Z froggey: ok. I don't know anything about kvm, and I'm not really sure what your command. here's my qemu command for comparison: qemu-system-x86_64 -hda lispos.image -m 512M -serial stdio -vga std -net user,hostfwd=tcp::7777-:80 -net nic,model=virtio -net dump,file=qemu.pcap -monitor vc:100Cx50C 2015-04-06T16:13:49Z jackdaniel: beach: oh, sorry, didn't press confirm button 2015-04-06T16:14:12Z froggey: can you get anything from virtualbox's serial port? 2015-04-06T16:14:35Z Posterdati: no 2015-04-06T16:14:36Z jackdaniel: know it's created i believe - https://github.com/robert-strandh/ansi-cl-tests/pull/1 2015-04-06T16:14:48Z beach: Yes, I see it. 2015-04-06T16:15:37Z Posterdati: I'm using your kemu 2015-04-06T16:15:42Z Posterdati: I'm using your qemu 2015-04-06T16:15:59Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:15:59Z jackdaniel: s/know/now/ 2015-04-06T16:17:06Z beach: jackdaniel: There was not already a test like that in the test suite? 2015-04-06T16:17:22Z jackdaniel: no, all were passing on ecl, yet this didn't pass 2015-04-06T16:17:23Z Phagus joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:17:37Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-06T16:17:40Z a2015 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-06T16:18:29Z beach: Yes, I see that now. Thanks. 2015-04-06T16:18:39Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T16:19:11Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:19:59Z kvsari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T16:20:17Z froggey: Posterdati: any luck? 2015-04-06T16:20:33Z leb joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:20:57Z leb quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-06T16:22:14Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-06T16:23:49Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-06T16:23:49Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-06T16:26:10Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-06T16:28:43Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:29:22Z Alfr joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:29:29Z hjs joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:29:53Z beach: jackdaniel: This is great! We can now improve the quality of *all* implementations. :) 2015-04-06T16:30:32Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-06T16:30:51Z jackdaniel: :-) 2015-04-06T16:31:33Z jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146829 here is my solution for shiftf/rotatef/psetf, I'm testing it now, but seems to work 2015-04-06T16:31:41Z redeemed quit (Quit: q) 2015-04-06T16:32:33Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:33:14Z hjs: Has anyone tried using Antik in Clisp on MS Windows? I'm getting an error when I run (ql:quickload "antik"). It says: *** - SYSTEM::STRING-READER: Invalid byte #xC2 in CHARSET:ASCII conversion, and then offers to try compiling #. 2015-04-06T16:33:23Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:33:43Z beach: jackdaniel: I need to look at that when I am less tired than I am now. This is the end of a long day for me. 2015-04-06T16:33:54Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:34:20Z jackdaniel: oh, have a good rest then. I'm on the train for 12h now, but it's pretty comfortable here 2015-04-06T16:35:05Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-06T16:35:16Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:35:37Z hjs: (that is, it offers to try recompiling #.) 2015-04-06T16:35:42Z Posterdati: froggey: it opened a repl, ping now works 2015-04-06T16:36:02Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-06T16:36:09Z Posterdati: (sys.net::ping-host "192.168.254.25") 2015-04-06T16:36:17Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-06T16:36:18Z froggey: that's good, at least you have connectivity to the outside world 2015-04-06T16:36:29Z Posterdati: 4 pings still in-flight 2015-04-06T16:36:34Z Posterdati: nil 2015-04-06T16:36:39Z froggey: or not 2015-04-06T16:37:02Z Posterdati: New ARP table: ((2048 167772674 #(82 85 10 0 2 2) 0)) 2015-04-06T16:37:23Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:37:30Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:37:39Z Posterdati: file server is running 2015-04-06T16:37:49Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:38:00Z Bike: hjs: clisp? seems you need to change your locale, c2 isn't in ascii 2015-04-06T16:39:47Z froggey: can you ping google.com from inside? 2015-04-06T16:41:08Z Bike: hjs: try, uh, (setf custom:*default-file-encoding* charset:utf-8) and then try quickloading again 2015-04-06T16:41:14Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:41:23Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:41:23Z hjs: Bike: Thanks. I'll give it a shot. 2015-04-06T16:42:47Z Posterdati: froggey: wait I did shut it down 2015-04-06T16:45:40Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:46:01Z hjs: Seems like antik &/or quicklisp is hosed now. I tried (ql:uninstall "antik") to try to clean up after the failed install, and now (ql:install "antik") immediately gives an error: *** - READ from # #> : # has no external symbol with name "INSTALL" 2015-04-06T16:46:26Z JokesOnYou77_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-06T16:48:01Z Bike: hjs: um, well yes, quicklisp doesn't have a function called install. 2015-04-06T16:48:43Z Bike: hjs: the only problem is that clisp is trying to read antik's files, which aren't ascii, as ascii. the antik files are probably fine. 2015-04-06T16:50:51Z s1n4 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:51:22Z innertracks1 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:51:52Z hjs: Bike: Ok. I'm an idiot. I did the ql:uninstall and assumed the opposite would be ql:install. I forgot that it's ql:quickload. When I try (ql:quickload "antik") now, I get:: *** - Error while trying to load definition for system static-vectors from pathname /cygdrive/c/Users/hstein/AppData/Roaming/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/static-vectors-1.6/static-vectors.asd: You need ASDF >= 2.32 to load this system corre 2015-04-06T16:52:25Z Bike: try (asdf:upgrade-asdf) 2015-04-06T16:53:01Z hjs: [7]> (asdf:upgrade-asdf) 0 errors, 0 warnings NIL 2015-04-06T16:53:15Z hjs: (ql:quickload "antik") - same result. 2015-04-06T16:53:26Z wz1000 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-06T16:53:57Z Bike: oh, that function doesn't do what i thought it did. 2015-04-06T16:54:23Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-06T16:56:43Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-06T16:56:43Z Bike: clisp on sourceforge comes with asdf 2.33. get a newer clisp. i have to go now, pjb knows more about clisp than anyone so if you need more help he's the one to bug. 2015-04-06T16:56:58Z hjs: Thanks. 2015-04-06T16:57:08Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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How's its performance compared to clisp & sbcl? 2015-04-06T17:03:53Z Xach: clisp is very slow. ccl is much faster. sbcl compiles slower than ccl but produces faster code overall. 2015-04-06T17:04:44Z hjs: ccl is cltl2? 2015-04-06T17:04:47Z Xach: clisp introduces a performance profile where built-in things are pretty fast but user-defined things are slow. in sbcl and clozure cl, built-in things and user-defined things are much closer to equally fast. 2015-04-06T17:04:53Z Xach: hjs: ccl is clozure cl. 2015-04-06T17:05:02Z Jaskologist quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-06T17:05:07Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:05:40Z hjs: Yes, I'm aware of clisp's performance profile. 2015-04-06T17:08:07Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:09:43Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:10:03Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-06T17:10:37Z hjs: I'm sorry. I was confusing Clozure with Clojure, hence the confusion about it being a common lisp. I didn't realize Clozure was a descendent of MCL. 2015-04-06T17:11:20Z jasom needs to write a program for ccl that generates clojurescript which is then postprocessed with the closure compiler 2015-04-06T17:13:28Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:13:59Z hjs: In any case, to clean up the failed load/compile of Antik, which pulled in a variety of other packages (including an updated ADSL (v 2.26), I blew away my quicklisp subdir and started again... 2015-04-06T17:14:03Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:15:26Z bipt quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-06T17:16:01Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:16:04Z hjs: This time, running (setf custom:*default-file-encoding* charset:utf-8) first. Now, it makes past pulling down & compiling Antik, and 21 other dependencies, does the same for grid, and then fails in the affi package. 2015-04-06T17:16:27Z hjs: ** - Continuable Error EXPORT(COMMON-LISP:TIME): # is locked If you continue (by typing 'continue'): Ignore the lock and proceed The following restarts are also available: RETRY :R1 Retry compiling #. ACCEPT :R2 Continue, treating compiling # as having been successful. 2015-04-06T17:16:53Z hjs: Symbol clash with clisp? 2015-04-06T17:17:13Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-06T17:17:26Z emaczen: jasom: can you post some more examples onto your parenscriptx project? 2015-04-06T17:17:43Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-06T17:18:02Z s1n4 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-06T17:20:20Z wz1000 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:21:44Z jocuman joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:22:12Z Bicyclidine: hjs: symbol clash with a standard symbol, yes. 2015-04-06T17:22:48Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-06T17:23:20Z HisaoNakai joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:24:15Z contrapunctus quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-06T17:24:19Z HisaoNakai is now known as contrapunctus 2015-04-06T17:27:28Z Bicyclidine: that file doesn't seem to export "time", so i dunno what the deal is 2015-04-06T17:27:31Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-06T17:27:54Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-06T17:28:32Z hjs: I guess I'll just have to try again with sbcl or ccl. 2015-04-06T17:28:39Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:29:22Z bipt joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:29:36Z gklimowicz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-06T17:31:09Z gklimowicz joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:32:51Z beach: jasom: I can't remember what I wrote. URL? 2015-04-06T17:33:36Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-06T17:34:36Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:37:24Z beach: jasom: I need to go spend time with my (admittedly small) family, so we have to do this some other time. I am interested in what you have to say though. 2015-04-06T17:37:36Z beach left #lisp 2015-04-06T17:38:55Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:42:10Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:43:38Z scharan quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-04-06T17:45:52Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:47:14Z ajtulloch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-06T17:47:51Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:48:52Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-06T17:49:31Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:50:50Z HisaoNakai joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:50:51Z lritter joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:50:59Z contrapunctus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-06T17:51:24Z HisaoNakai is now known as contrapunctus 2015-04-06T17:51:31Z lritter: gentlemen 2015-04-06T17:51:33Z lritter: what's a nice editor for s-expressions? 2015-04-06T17:51:49Z alpha-: emascs with paredit 2015-04-06T17:51:54Z alpha-: emacs* 2015-04-06T17:51:54Z arenz joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:52:18Z lritter: such was my hunch- 2015-04-06T17:52:33Z lritter: are there other comparable solutions? 2015-04-06T17:52:57Z alpha-: emacs with paredit and slime and evil-mode 2015-04-06T17:53:27Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-06T17:53:32Z Ven quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-06T17:54:20Z lritter: hehe 2015-04-06T17:54:33Z rhllor joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:56:28Z HisaoNakai joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:56:36Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-06T17:57:21Z contrapunctus quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-06T17:57:23Z HisaoNakai is now known as contrapunctus 2015-04-06T17:57:41Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2015-04-06T17:58:10Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-06T17:58:24Z jasom: lritter: there is a paredit for vim that's okay 2015-04-06T17:58:51Z lritter: yeah that's... is there something that looks like SciTE, Atom or Sublime? ;) 2015-04-06T17:59:44Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:01:13Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:02:58Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-06T18:03:07Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-06T18:04:23Z rhllor quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-06T18:05:16Z rhllor joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:05:39Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:06:05Z lritter: alright, i'll have a look at both. 2015-04-06T18:06:15Z rhllor quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-06T18:07:01Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:07:19Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:07:43Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:07:51Z jumblerg quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-06T18:08:38Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T18:10:51Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:12:27Z hapislacker joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:12:52Z Shinmera: Emacs can look like sublime if you configure it right. 2015-04-06T18:13:34Z zacts: there is now a free / opensource fork of sublime 2015-04-06T18:13:56Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-06T18:18:25Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-06T18:18:51Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:21:44Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-06T18:23:21Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-06T18:23:30Z shka joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:23:38Z shka: good evening lispers 2015-04-06T18:23:57Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:24:04Z shka: does anybody have expirence on implementing neural network? 2015-04-06T18:24:17Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:24:56Z xan_ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-06T18:25:51Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:27:26Z Bicyclidine: What kind? 2015-04-06T18:28:40Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:28:59Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-06T18:29:57Z Crypt0r joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:32:29Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-04-06T18:32:45Z Phagus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-06T18:35:13Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:36:07Z shka: Bicyclidine: simple ones 2015-04-06T18:36:18Z shka: i want to make one for learning 2015-04-06T18:36:29Z shka: and also for something else 2015-04-06T18:36:43Z shka: but not something that you would think of 2015-04-06T18:36:45Z Crypt0r quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-06T18:37:26Z random__ left #lisp 2015-04-06T18:37:32Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T18:38:34Z angavrilov quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-06T18:40:07Z Bicyclidine: okay, so i'm guessing you mean ANNs, not simulations. 2015-04-06T18:40:32Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:40:43Z fleaswallow joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:41:11Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:41:55Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T18:43:08Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:45:25Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:48:09Z shka: Bicyclidine: yeah, obviously 2015-04-06T18:48:23Z shka: not doing SINCE here ;-) 2015-04-06T18:48:26Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-06T18:49:17Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-06T18:50:08Z jumblerg quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-06T18:50:09Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:50:45Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:50:54Z Bicyclidine: SINCE? 2015-04-06T18:51:15Z shka: Bicyclidine: silly typo :/ 2015-04-06T18:51:42Z shka: needless to say, where to start? 2015-04-06T18:52:15Z shka: i think that "modern approach" would be nice reference 2015-04-06T18:55:51Z Posterdati: froggey: (sys.net::ping-host "www.google.it") 2015-04-06T18:56:11Z Posterdati: froggey: 4 pings still in-flight. 2015-04-06T18:56:16Z Posterdati: froggey: NIL 2015-04-06T18:56:25Z Posterdati: seems to work 2015-04-06T18:57:11Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T18:58:29Z froggey: no, having pings in-flight means that it didn't receive a response 2015-04-06T18:59:04Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-06T19:01:06Z shka: Bicyclidine: so, thanks i guess 2015-04-06T19:01:14Z shka: have a good night all 2015-04-06T19:01:21Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T19:01:46Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-06T19:01:53Z froggey: Posterdati: if you still have it running, can you ping 10.0.2.2? 2015-04-06T19:02:06Z froggey: that's the address of qemu's gateway 2015-04-06T19:03:32Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-04-06T19:05:57Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-06T19:06:29Z innertracks1 quit (Quit: innertracks1) 2015-04-06T19:06:44Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-06T19:06:51Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-06T19:08:16Z ajtulloch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-06T19:08:39Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-06T19:09:02Z RenRenJuan joined #lisp 2015-04-06T19:09:47Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T19:13:41Z wicope quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-06T19:15:54Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T19:23:21Z troydm quit (Quit: What is hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? (C) Rau Le Creuset) 2015-04-06T19:24:06Z troydm joined #lisp 2015-04-06T19:24:40Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-06T19:26:03Z troydm quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-06T19:26:27Z troydm joined #lisp 2015-04-06T19:28:06Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-06T19:28:19Z troydm quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-06T19:30:02Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-06T19:30:16Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-06T19:31:07Z troydm joined #lisp 2015-04-06T19:33:29Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T19:33:36Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-04-06T19:34:29Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-06T19:34:35Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-06T19:35:39Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2015-04-06T19:36:39Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-04-06T19:36:41Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-06T19:36:59Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-04-06T19:40:31Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-04-06T19:41:04Z wemeetagain quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-06T19:43:19Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-04-06T19:43:54Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-04-06T19:43:59Z emaczen: Can anybody help me with parenscript and reactJS: http://paste.lisp.org/+35AT ? 2015-04-06T19:44:26Z jasom: emaczen: I'm now working on translating the React tutorial code to parenscriptx 2015-04-06T19:45:07Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-06T19:45:58Z emaczen: jasom: thanks, did I succesfully private message you? 2015-04-06T19:47:36Z jasom: yeah 2015-04-06T19:47:45Z jasom: so... you aren't getting anything in the script tag, right? 2015-04-06T19:48:14Z jasom: you'll want to either to (str (ps ...)) or (ps-to-stream *standard-output* ...) 2015-04-06T19:48:59Z jasom: once you're lexically in the ps block, you don't need to worry about the stream, I make sure that htm and { go to the same place 2015-04-06T19:51:44Z emaczen: correct 2015-04-06T19:52:57Z emaczen: jasom: It works! finally! hahha thanks so much 2015-04-06T19:53:46Z jasom: emaczen: no problem 2015-04-06T19:54:06Z Posterdati: froggey: 1 ping still in-flight 2015-04-06T19:54:13Z Oveja joined #lisp 2015-04-06T19:54:19Z jjkola joined #lisp 2015-04-06T19:54:36Z jjkola: hi 2015-04-06T19:56:12Z jjkola: if gc.impure.lisp test fails should I be concerned about it? 2015-04-06T19:56:22Z Oveja quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-06T19:58:35Z jjkola: this happened on my server box which has CentOS 6 2015-04-06T19:58:39Z Oveja joined #lisp 2015-04-06T20:00:22Z burtons joined #lisp 2015-04-06T20:00:35Z jjkola: I'm using latest version of sbcl from git 2015-04-06T20:00:40Z burtons: how would one go about converting a vector to a simple array when coerce doesn't work? 2015-04-06T20:00:45Z Oveja quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-06T20:01:42Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-06T20:01:52Z jjkola: when I run the tests with same version on my local machine (Ubuntu) the tests passed as expected 2015-04-06T20:01:59Z froggey: Posterdati: what does (sys.net::resolve-address "google.com") give? 2015-04-06T20:02:19Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-04-06T20:02:21Z Xach: burtons: I can't help directly, sorry, but I'm curious...what happens when you try coerce? 2015-04-06T20:02:21Z dlowe: burtons: (map-into my-simple-array #'identity my-vector) 2015-04-06T20:02:25Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-06T20:02:53Z burtons: Xach: it just says that it can't convert it 2015-04-06T20:03:00Z burtons: dlowe: i'll try that 2015-04-06T20:03:01Z Posterdati: froggey: 3627733742 2015-04-06T20:03:12Z Bicyclidine: what array is this? I'm curious too. 2015-04-06T20:03:32Z burtons: it's the output from with-output-to-sequence 2015-04-06T20:03:40Z burtons: i'm trying to insert it into a sqlite blob 2015-04-06T20:03:46Z jjkola: if anybody is interested I can paste the logs 2015-04-06T20:03:51Z froggey: Posterdati: that's very strange. it's able to resolve addresses using google dns, but can't ping anything? 2015-04-06T20:04:07Z Bicyclidine: huh, (coerce (make-array 3 :initial-contents '(1 2 3) :adjustable t) 'simple-array) doesn't work 2015-04-06T20:04:48Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-06T20:04:48Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-06T20:04:52Z burtons: i get a simple-type error #(...) can't be converted to simple-array 2015-04-06T20:05:00Z Bicyclidine: yeah. on sbcl, anyway 2015-04-06T20:05:05Z Bicyclidine: well, dlowe's thing should work. 2015-04-06T20:06:50Z burtons: i'm thinking i might just modify cl-sqlite to accept a vector 2015-04-06T20:06:54Z burtons: it's just a typecheck 2015-04-06T20:06:57Z Bicyclidine: burtons: (coerce foo '(simple-array * 1)) should work 2015-04-06T20:06:59Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-06T20:07:21Z burtons: Bicyclidine: ah yes, there we go 2015-04-06T20:07:23Z burtons: thanks! 2015-04-06T20:07:48Z Posterdati: does "in-flight" mean ping failure? 2015-04-06T20:08:11Z Bicyclidine: it means the ping was sent but no pong was returned, i would assume, meaning you're not really connected 2015-04-06T20:08:15Z froggey: yes 2015-04-06T20:08:24Z Bicyclidine: coerce doesn't work on non-sequence arrays, doy 2015-04-06T20:08:34Z Posterdati: ok 2015-04-06T20:08:36Z Bicyclidine: non-sequence array types, is what's relevant here, rather 2015-04-06T20:09:24Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-06T20:10:46Z froggey: Posterdati: (sys.net::with-open-network-stream (s "google.it" 80) (write-line "GET /" s) (read-line s)) 2015-04-06T20:10:47Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-06T20:10:53Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T20:11:06Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-06T20:11:06Z froggey: sorry there isn't any proper line-editing in the basic repl 2015-04-06T20:11:28Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-04-06T20:12:31Z xificurC quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T20:15:40Z Posterdati: froggey: "HTTP/1.0 302 Found" 2015-04-06T20:16:52Z burtons: are sbcl hash tables thread safe? 2015-04-06T20:17:01Z burtons: thinking not 2015-04-06T20:17:29Z Bicyclidine: they are with :synchronized t to make-hash-table, i think. 2015-04-06T20:17:45Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-04-06T20:17:51Z burtons: thanks again 2015-04-06T20:17:56Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-04-06T20:17:59Z EvW quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-06T20:19:11Z froggey: Posterdati: ok, you have connectivity, but ping seems to be broken. fine. can you check the IP of the remote filesystem? (mezzano.file-system:find-host :remote) should print the IP & port 2015-04-06T20:20:39Z Posterdati: yes 2015-04-06T20:20:47Z Posterdati: it works 2015-04-06T20:20:50Z Posterdati: now? 2015-04-06T20:21:08Z froggey: the IP is right? 2015-04-06T20:21:24Z Posterdati: yes 2015-04-06T20:21:38Z froggey: or do you mean that everything is working? 2015-04-06T20:22:00Z Posterdati: no the command I gave 2015-04-06T20:22:10Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T20:22:29Z froggey: try (directory "REMOTE:/*") 2015-04-06T20:22:43Z shka quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-06T20:22:54Z froggey: that should list everything in the root dir of your host 2015-04-06T20:23:39Z Posterdati: the logs: Ignoring packet from D83AD2E3 #(0 80 128 9 94 98 30 14 0 0 0 19 80 16 34 56 217 2015-04-06T20:23:45Z jjkola: I checked the bug code of the last test which was visible and it seems to be about gc leak so I think I don't need to concern myself about it, at least not yet 2015-04-06T20:24:42Z DrWat joined #lisp 2015-04-06T20:25:25Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-06T20:26:01Z froggey: does the directory command give an error or hang? "ignoring packet" messages are normal 2015-04-06T20:26:05Z jjkola: when I checked the server box (it's virtual server) has 256 megs of ram and same amount of swap, so that's what might trigger the problem with that gc.impure.lisp test... 2015-04-06T20:26:29Z Posterdati: froggey: hung 2015-04-06T20:26:53Z bjorkintosh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-06T20:27:13Z Bicyclidine: jjkola: you might ask the devs in #sbcl if you're really worried. 2015-04-06T20:27:14Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2015-04-06T20:27:42Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T20:29:25Z wemeetagain joined #lisp 2015-04-06T20:29:54Z jjkola: Bicyclidine: ok, thanks 2015-04-06T20:30:16Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-06T20:30:42Z froggey: Posterdati: can you close the VM completely, reopen it and rerun the command 2015-04-06T20:31:12Z gko__ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-06T20:31:21Z Posterdati: yes 2015-04-06T20:32:10Z Posterdati: rebooting 2015-04-06T20:35:13Z jjkola quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-06T20:36:16Z Posterdati: froggey: still booting 2015-04-06T20:37:09Z froggey: quite slow. this is in qemu without kvm, right? 2015-04-06T20:37:20Z Posterdati: yes 2015-04-06T20:37:24Z froggey: ok 2015-04-06T20:38:20Z froggey: is the file-server printing anything? if you ran it in slime, then messages should appear in emacs' *inferior-lisp* buffer 2015-04-06T20:38:45Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-06T20:38:57Z Posterdati: I did not ran in slime 2015-04-06T20:41:02Z froggey: sbcl started from a terminal? I think messages should show up on stdout 2015-04-06T20:41:21Z Posterdati: from a makefile 2015-04-06T20:41:48Z froggey: a makefile? 2015-04-06T20:43:46Z burtons: pbj make a mezzano makefile, it was one of your pull requests 2015-04-06T20:43:52Z burtons: sorry, pjb 2015-04-06T20:45:00Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-04-06T20:45:09Z Posterdati: it is slow 2015-04-06T20:45:21Z TeMPOraL quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-06T20:45:37Z burtons: cold boot takes a very long time 2015-04-06T20:45:51Z froggey: oh right. I forgot. I think I was waiting for something 2015-04-06T20:46:41Z froggey: my latest changes make doing a full build much faster. I measured 20 minutes 2015-04-06T20:47:12Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-04-06T20:47:15Z burtons: nice, still haven't had a chance to try it much yet 2015-04-06T20:48:06Z froggey: I had a look at med, very impressed with the changes. it might be usable now :) 2015-04-06T20:48:22Z Posterdati: froggey: it hangs 2015-04-06T20:49:16Z oleo: is http://mcclim.cliki.net/ down for others too ? 2015-04-06T20:49:53Z ehu: oleo: what was there? and when was it last seen there? 2015-04-06T20:50:05Z burtons: froggey: thanks. i got distracted by another project for a while but i'll get back to it eventually :) 2015-04-06T20:50:06Z oleo: ehu ? 2015-04-06T20:50:29Z ehu: oleo: it's down for me too, but what are you expecting to find there and when was the last time you found it there. 2015-04-06T20:50:30Z oleo: the postscript backend fails to produce an .ps file 2015-04-06T20:50:53Z oleo: ehu like one year before or so.... 2015-04-06T20:50:57Z oleo: it was there 2015-04-06T20:51:00Z froggey: Posterdati: it looks like the makefile starts the file-server under screen. can you attach to it? 2015-04-06T20:51:03Z oleo: and the link does not work suddenly..... 2015-04-06T20:51:30Z Posterdati: froggery: ok 2015-04-06T20:52:09Z oleo: okular gives me Generated image does not match wanted size: [0x0] vs requested [80x104] QImage::scaled: Image is a null image 2015-04-06T20:52:39Z oleo: with-output-to-postscript-stream....... 2015-04-06T20:53:10Z oleo: so the file is there but the content is not.... 2015-04-06T20:53:15Z oleo: wth 2015-04-06T20:55:32Z futpib quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-06T20:56:02Z Posterdati: froggey: nothing happens 2015-04-06T20:56:11Z TeMPOraL joined #lisp 2015-04-06T20:56:17Z froggey: nothing at all? no messages there? 2015-04-06T20:56:19Z Posterdati: debugger invoked on a BABEL-ENCODINGS:CHARACTER-DECODING-ERROR in thread #: Illegal :ASCII character starting at position 38. 2015-04-06T20:56:41Z froggey: oh! it was in the debugger? 2015-04-06T20:56:53Z Posterdati: mmmh strange 2015-04-06T20:57:33Z Posterdati: I'm in the sbcl prompt now 2015-04-06T20:59:04Z froggey: what is sb-impl::*default-external-format* ? 2015-04-06T20:59:15Z Posterdati: freezed 2015-04-06T21:00:39Z froggey: I think you should kill that sbcl 2015-04-06T21:00:41Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-04-06T21:01:01Z Posterdati: undefined function 2015-04-06T21:01:26Z froggey: from sbcl or mezzano? 2015-04-06T21:01:33Z Posterdati: sbcl 2015-04-06T21:01:52Z froggey: what function? 2015-04-06T21:02:08Z Posterdati: sorry 2015-04-06T21:02:15Z Posterdati: sb-impl::*default-external-format* 2015-04-06T21:02:29Z froggey: it's a variable 2015-04-06T21:02:29Z Posterdati: I killed the server 2015-04-06T21:02:35Z Posterdati: yes I know 2015-04-06T21:02:45Z rhllor joined #lisp 2015-04-06T21:02:49Z JJaskologist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-06T21:03:14Z x1n4u quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-06T21:03:17Z emaczen: jasom: I have a hunchentoot easy-handler that will query the server's database and return some json as a string -- how do I access this via parenscript? 2015-04-06T21:03:25Z froggey: ok. can you start sbcl in a terminal, and run (ql:quickload :lispos-file) (file-server::run-file-server) 2015-04-06T21:03:45Z x1n4u joined #lisp 2015-04-06T21:03:57Z emaczen: Or, how does parenscript get this json data from the easy-handler? 2015-04-06T21:04:01Z froggey: oh, check *default-external-format* before calling run-file-server 2015-04-06T21:04:17Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-06T21:05:05Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-06T21:05:39Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T21:05:52Z Posterdati: froggey: could not load lispos-file 2015-04-06T21:06:10Z Posterdati: froggey: it is not in the projects path 2015-04-06T21:08:36Z jumblerg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-06T21:08:43Z Posterdati: ok done! 2015-04-06T21:09:07Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-06T21:09:24Z Posterdati: :UTF-8 2015-04-06T21:09:45Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-06T21:10:02Z Posterdati: ran 2015-04-06T21:10:09Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-06T21:10:38Z jasom: emaczen: XMLHttpRequest 2015-04-06T21:10:51Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-06T21:11:06Z froggey: :utf-8 should be right 2015-04-06T21:11:19Z emaczen: jasom: ok, I'll look into that 2015-04-06T21:11:31Z froggey: from another terminal can you run "telnet localhost 2599" and send "(:ping)"? 2015-04-06T21:11:39Z Posterdati: an error came up in the file-server and pushed it in debugger 2015-04-06T21:11:46Z emaczen: jasom: I've done javascript before in some giant frameworks that hide all the details away.... 2015-04-06T21:11:53Z froggey: can you paste the whole error somewhere? 2015-04-06T21:11:54Z emaczen: and am not a fan of giant frameworks now. 2015-04-06T21:12:00Z Posterdati: froggey: yes 2015-04-06T21:12:17Z jasom: emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146839 2015-04-06T21:13:07Z jasom: that is part of something that should go up to the parenscript repository tonight 2015-04-06T21:13:08Z Posterdati: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146840 2015-04-06T21:13:17Z jasom: it's the react example translated directly to parenscriptx 2015-04-06T21:13:29Z emaczen: jasom: parenscript or parenscriptx? 2015-04-06T21:13:32Z froggey: invalid object? 2015-04-06T21:13:53Z jasom: emaczen: from here: https://facebook.github.io/react/docs/tutorial.html 2015-04-06T21:13:54Z Posterdati: seems so 2015-04-06T21:14:00Z jasom: emaczen: parenscriptx 2015-04-06T21:14:41Z Posterdati: froggey: there's no local.llf 2015-04-06T21:14:59Z froggey: that's fine. it's just deleting it to make extra sure 2015-04-06T21:15:07Z emaczen: jasom: cool1 2015-04-06T21:15:26Z froggey: I think this might be a bug in sbcl or maybe iolib? 2015-04-06T21:15:38Z Posterdati: sbcl is 1.2.9 2015-04-06T21:15:48Z froggey: run "backtrace 10000" and paste that please 2015-04-06T21:16:16Z Posterdati: in sbcl? 2015-04-06T21:16:20Z froggey: yes 2015-04-06T21:16:26Z froggey: in the debugger prompt 2015-04-06T21:16:36Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-04-06T21:17:28Z Posterdati: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146840#1 2015-04-06T21:17:48Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-06T21:18:05Z burtons: Posterdati: what version of sbcl are you using? 2015-04-06T21:18:12Z Posterdati: 1.2.9 2015-04-06T21:18:45Z burtons: sorry, just catching up but is this a problem with the mezzano file server? 2015-04-06T21:18:59Z burtons: i've had issues with newer sbcl's and the file server/iolib 2015-04-06T21:19:38Z burtons: anything after 1.2.7.85ish caused problems 2015-04-06T21:19:59Z froggey: ok. I'll investigate. I'm running 1.2.4 2015-04-06T21:20:01Z burtons: never had a chance to track it down yet 2015-04-06T21:21:55Z joast quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-06T21:22:48Z froggey: Posterdati: if you don't want to wait for me, see if you can get an older sbcl & run the file-server in it 2015-04-06T21:23:06Z jikanter joined #lisp 2015-04-06T21:24:16Z Posterdati: froggey: I haven't got an older sbcl 2015-04-06T21:25:00Z fe[nl]ix: burtons: what kind of issues ? 2015-04-06T21:25:26Z burtons: memory fault error 2015-04-06T21:26:11Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-06T21:26:27Z duggiefresh quit 2015-04-06T21:27:12Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-06T21:30:20Z Pastaf joined #lisp 2015-04-06T21:30:59Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-06T21:31:36Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-06T21:32:16Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-06T21:35:29Z Posterdati: froggey: the mezzano image was compiled using sbcl 1.2.9 2015-04-06T21:36:06Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-06T21:36:42Z froggey: it seems to be a problem with the file-server. building the image works, as far as I know 2015-04-06T21:36:53Z burtons: yes, just the file server 2015-04-06T21:38:43Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-06T21:38:50Z Posterdati: can we arrange a normal tftp server? 2015-04-06T21:41:18Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T21:41:22Z froggey: maybe. someone would have to write a tftp client 2015-04-06T21:41:30Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-04-06T21:42:25Z froggey: still building sbcl... 2015-04-06T21:47:45Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-06T21:48:00Z steelbird joined #lisp 2015-04-06T21:49:25Z ziocroc quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-06T21:49:51Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-06T21:49:57Z dfinninger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T21:49:59Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-06T21:51:25Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-06T21:51:31Z froggey: yep, I'm getting all sorts of exciting errors with sbcl 1.2.10 2015-04-06T21:53:13Z Posterdati: lol 2015-04-06T21:53:36Z ehu: "deprecation fallout"? 2015-04-06T21:53:58Z bipt quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-06T21:53:59Z oleo: did someone put a troll in the sbcl team or what ? 2015-04-06T21:54:02Z oleo: lol 2015-04-06T21:55:39Z linux_dream quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-06T21:56:03Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-04-06T21:56:18Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-04-06T21:57:41Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-06T21:58:14Z Posterdati: froggey: would be useful to have a tftp client? 2015-04-06T21:59:14Z Posterdati: theres an ftp # 2015-04-06T21:59:33Z froggey: I don't think it'd be enough. tftp only seems to support reading & writing files, not more advanced fs operations like listing directories 2015-04-06T21:59:58Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T22:00:30Z Posterdati: there's an ftp package 2015-04-06T22:02:17Z Posterdati: we could use it 2015-04-06T22:02:32Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-04-06T22:03:11Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-06T22:04:53Z fleaswallow quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-06T22:07:35Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-04-06T22:08:16Z jikanter quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-06T22:10:23Z tharugrim quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2-dev) 2015-04-06T22:11:11Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-06T22:11:33Z kons joined #lisp 2015-04-06T22:11:56Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-06T22:13:20Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-06T22:17:25Z froggey: Posterdati: I have rewritten the file-server so it uses sb-bsd-sockets instead of iolib and it seems to be working 2015-04-06T22:17:45Z froggey: open up file-server/server.lisp and replace run-file-server with: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146841 2015-04-06T22:18:57Z badkins quit 2015-04-06T22:21:48Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-06T22:22:19Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-06T22:22:31Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-06T22:24:48Z nell joined #lisp 2015-04-06T22:24:56Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-04-06T22:25:30Z kons quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-06T22:26:58Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-04-06T22:26:58Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-06T22:27:44Z steelbird quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-06T22:28:10Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T22:29:04Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-06T22:29:09Z drmeister: Bicyclidine: I isolated the problem I was describing last night - thanks for your help. 2015-04-06T22:29:10Z minion: drmeister, memo from SAL9000: where does the clasp build process generate compile_commands.json? The one in src/main has absolute paths specific to your system ( http://pastie.org/private/qxkoqc5owayjo5yddjjb0a ) 2015-04-06T22:29:10Z minion: drmeister, memo from SAL9000: does the BUILDING_CLASP flag actually do anything useful? I was unable to compile the demo-clasp-cxx code without enabling it. A cursory recursive grep has me thinking that the flag is redundant (and possibly counterproductive, since the non-BUILDING include files do not exist at the paths concerned) 2015-04-06T22:29:35Z vdamewood quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-04-06T22:29:39Z drmeister: SAL9000: Are you online? 2015-04-06T22:30:01Z joast joined #lisp 2015-04-06T22:30:24Z drmeister: Bicyclidine: I reduced the test case to this: 2015-04-06T22:31:02Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146842 2015-04-06T22:32:13Z drmeister: A non-local exit across an APPLY or FUNCALL would lose the returned values. 2015-04-06T22:33:03Z Bicyclidine: er, so (my-func) returns nil? 2015-04-06T22:33:13Z Bicyclidine: or... what. 2015-04-06T22:33:57Z drmeister: If I compile it with Cleavir/Clasp (my-func) would return (values) 2015-04-06T22:34:32Z Bicyclidine: oh, my, that's not good at all. 2015-04-06T22:34:34Z drmeister: Or rather, it would return an uninitialized number of values. 2015-04-06T22:34:45Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-04-06T22:34:54Z Bicyclidine: so in your actual thing it just returned some random crap on the stack which ended up being the restarts. 2015-04-06T22:35:00Z Bicyclidine: well... at least you know what the problem is. 2015-04-06T22:36:25Z drmeister: Yeah - I'm fixing it. It's all tied up with how I represent multiple return values. I return the first value and the number of values in a different way from the rest of the values. The first value and the number of values was getting lost. 2015-04-06T22:36:38Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-06T22:37:11Z Phagus joined #lisp 2015-04-06T22:38:12Z drmeister: The SGI x86-64 calling convention lets me return two values in registers and the rest need to be in memory. 2015-04-06T22:39:16Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-06T22:39:43Z drmeister: But it's not Cleavir's fault at all. It's my implementation. 2015-04-06T22:40:21Z pjb: dlowe: you can/should use com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.ascii:ascii-code 2015-04-06T22:41:09Z Bicyclidine: drmeister: but only when using cleavir...? 2015-04-06T22:42:47Z drmeister: Yeah - welcome to my world. I've tried to reuse as much code as I could from Clasp in Cleavir/Clasp - this involves code that I rewrote. 2015-04-06T22:42:58Z Bicyclidine: very exciting. 2015-04-06T22:43:33Z pjb: hjs: it is definitely better to use clisp, it has the best support for unicode, and the finerest settings for encodings than any other implementation. 2015-04-06T22:43:47Z drmeister: It's not trivial to map Common Lisp onto a real ABI. 2015-04-06T22:43:50Z pjb: hjs: you just have to read the doc and know what you're doing. 2015-04-06T22:44:27Z Bicyclidine: i don't think it's even trivial to map C onto an ABI, really 2015-04-06T22:44:59Z drmeister: I think back to the days when I was young and foolish and thought "implement the 26-odd special operators of Common Lisp and a few functions in C++ and you're done". 2015-04-06T22:45:05Z pjb: hjs: ccl is not cltl2, it's cl. Almost no cl implementation is cltl2 anymore. 2015-04-06T22:45:32Z drmeister: I was such a rube. 2015-04-06T22:46:54Z pjb: hjs: you will have similar problems whith cl:time on other implementation. It's time to add a (:shadow "TIME") to some defpackage form. 2015-04-06T22:47:14Z Xach: that's how they get you 2015-04-06T22:47:23Z Xach: before you know it you're going to conferences in foreign countries 2015-04-06T22:47:31Z Xach: growing a long beard, etc 2015-04-06T22:47:55Z marsam joined #lisp 2015-04-06T22:48:01Z pjb: lritter: beside emacs with paredit, you may want to try sedit: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/sedit/index.html 2015-04-06T22:48:09Z Bicyclidine: pjb: as far as i could tell the file in question didn't even define something nmed time, so i don't know what the deal was. 2015-04-06T22:48:41Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-06T22:53:34Z froggey: Posterdati: if you're still around, I've finished a full build with sbcl 1.2.10. hopefully you won't have any more problems with the patch to the file-server 2015-04-06T22:55:47Z drmeister: Xach: It's true - I had a conversation with Jans Aassman of Franz Inc three years ago at the Hackers Conference and he was saying the same thing "All you have to do is implement the Common Lisp special operators...". 2015-04-06T22:56:00Z fe[nl]ix: drmeister: are you coming to ELS'15 ? 2015-04-06T22:56:10Z drmeister: fe[nl]ix: Yes. 2015-04-06T22:56:42Z fe[nl]ix: cool 2015-04-06T22:57:36Z marsam quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T22:59:04Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-06T23:00:25Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T23:02:31Z chu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-06T23:04:11Z rhllor quit (Quit: rhllor) 2015-04-06T23:04:33Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-06T23:04:44Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-06T23:06:45Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-04-06T23:07:37Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-06T23:09:49Z _1_Dre2 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T23:09:54Z _1_Dre2: hey 2015-04-06T23:11:30Z marsam joined #lisp 2015-04-06T23:12:49Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-06T23:16:24Z srcerer joined #lisp 2015-04-06T23:21:56Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-06T23:21:56Z marsam quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T23:22:03Z Guest22314 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-06T23:24:31Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-06T23:25:48Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2015-04-06T23:25:54Z cadadar left #lisp 2015-04-06T23:31:27Z clop joined #lisp 2015-04-06T23:35:33Z Guest22314 joined #lisp 2015-04-06T23:36:03Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-06T23:36:04Z marsam joined #lisp 2015-04-06T23:37:46Z marsam quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-06T23:41:19Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-06T23:42:40Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-04-06T23:45:15Z arrubin joined #lisp 2015-04-06T23:46:27Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-04-06T23:50:19Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-04-06T23:50:42Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-06T23:56:30Z gklimowicz quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-07T01:24:35Z pillton: That isn't the abstraction I am looking for. Maybe I should elaborate. 2015-04-07T01:26:34Z gklimowicz joined #lisp 2015-04-07T01:27:51Z vr-rm_ joined #lisp 2015-04-07T01:29:19Z RedEight quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-07T01:29:23Z pillton: Basically my problem looks like this: http://markcox80.github.io/chains/parallelism.png. 2015-04-07T01:32:07Z pillton: I have a whole bunch of experiments which have executed. Each experiment has some input data which is processed by an algorithm. 2015-04-07T01:32:54Z pillton: The performance of the algorithm on the given input data is called the metric. 2015-04-07T01:33:33Z pillton: There are a number of parameters which govern the input data and the algorithm. 2015-04-07T01:34:24Z pillton: I am interested in generating reports/tables which summarize the results for different groupings of experiments. 2015-04-07T01:38:10Z Balooga joined #lisp 2015-04-07T01:38:32Z gklimowicz quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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What about the BUILDING_CLASP flag I mentioned earlier? 2015-04-07T02:13:01Z drmeister: It's not straightforward to run because I've focused on getting it to run on just one 64-core Linux machine that I have access to. 2015-04-07T02:13:25Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-04-07T02:13:35Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-04-07T02:13:39Z C6248 is now known as BWV988 2015-04-07T02:15:22Z Guest4617 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-07T02:15:25Z drmeister: The demo-cxx-clasp project has not been completely set up. I can build it on OS X but it may not work on Linux yet. 2015-04-07T02:15:48Z loke: Xach: are you around? 2015-04-07T02:15:50Z drmeister: I'm planning to put out a new release of Clasp in the next couple of weeks and I'll put some time into build issues. 2015-04-07T02:16:02Z drmeister: I've been really, really focused on integrating Cleavir into Clasp. 2015-04-07T02:16:53Z SAL9000: it does compile on Linux given some include path changes; what I'm confused about is that #ifdef BUILDING_CLASP, includes such as are enabled, which do not exist in the source tree under those paths. Is there some install target or something which moves those files into the right place? 2015-04-07T02:17:39Z drmeister: Where is that #ifdef? 2015-04-07T02:17:57Z SAL9000: that particular one is in src/core/evaluator.cc line 1770 2015-04-07T02:18:00Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-04-07T02:18:24Z BWV988 left #lisp 2015-04-07T02:18:36Z drmeister: Oh - ok, I see 2015-04-07T02:19:12Z SAL9000: there's 10 of those #ifdef blocks in total throughout the source tree 2015-04-07T02:19:17Z drmeister: Yes, there is a build target that installs those files properly - hang on. 2015-04-07T02:20:54Z drmeister: I think you have to go into every source directory (as in clasp/src/core) and use: bjam bundle dist-generated-files debug release 2015-04-07T02:21:14Z drmeister: That should generate those files and move them into the clasp/include/clasp/core/generated/... directories. 2015-04-07T02:22:09Z thodg joined #lisp 2015-04-07T02:22:27Z drmeister: This stuff is not fully set up yet. I haven't streamlined the build system for building libraries for interoperation with Clasp. 2015-04-07T02:22:48Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-04-07T02:22:50Z SAL9000: Okay. Gotta go for now, will try that tonight; might have a pull request for you soon :-) 2015-04-07T02:23:03Z drmeister: Excellent - are you exposing a C++ library? 2015-04-07T02:23:29Z SAL9000: currently trying to figure out whether it's possible to do that in a generic manner -- for "all" C++ libraries, I hope. 2015-04-07T02:25:22Z drmeister: I see. Yes, I think it is possible. The challenge will be focusing on what you want to expose and ignoring all of the transitive includes of C++. When exposing library FOO you don't want to expose stdlib.h. 2015-04-07T02:26:05Z drmeister: I haven't put too much thought into it though. 2015-04-07T02:26:26Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-07T02:26:35Z drmeister: Let's talk more about it later. 2015-04-07T02:26:40Z wemeetagain joined #lisp 2015-04-07T02:30:32Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-07T02:31:55Z loke: Xach: Anyway, if you see this later, I was wondering if you had download statistics for cl-rabbit? I wanted to know if anyone is using it, since I wanted to change the API in an incompatible manner. 2015-04-07T02:38:08Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-07T02:42:56Z pjb: - 2015-04-07T02:49:24Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-07T02:55:05Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-07T02:56:29Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-07T02:57:52Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-04-07T02:59:18Z ajtulloch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T03:01:00Z Xach: loke: ~20 downloads per month 2015-04-07T03:02:42Z gensym quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-07T03:02:44Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-07T03:02:46Z _pakchoi_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T03:03:44Z jackc__: whats the canonical Right Way to yoink and install a fresh library from version control and ensure youre loading that one vs the stale lib in quicklisp cache? 2015-04-07T03:04:08Z jackc__: specifically im trying to get the latest usocket happening, as im hitting an oldish bug in hunchentoot 2015-04-07T03:04:58Z jackc__: i cloned the latest usocket into a dir and pushed its path onto asdf:*central-registry*, but i appear to still be loading the old usocket 2015-04-07T03:05:26Z jackc__: (after restarting sbcl, reloading everything, and restarting hunchentoot) 2015-04-07T03:07:35Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-07T03:08:17Z loke: Xach: thanks. That means that people have actually at least tried it. Good to know. 2015-04-07T03:08:38Z loke: I guess I will put some backward compatibilty stuff in there 2015-04-07T03:08:47Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-07T03:12:25Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-07T03:12:36Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-04-07T03:15:26Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-07T03:16:03Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-07T03:17:57Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-07T03:19:40Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-04-07T03:21:40Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-07T03:22:28Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-07T03:25:46Z ajtulloc_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T03:26:10Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T03:27:17Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-07T03:28:12Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-07T03:31:45Z hapislacker quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-07T03:32:58Z ajtulloch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T03:33:34Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-07T03:37:52Z steelbird joined #lisp 2015-04-07T03:37:57Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-07T03:38:24Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-04-07T03:41:38Z Guest22314 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-07T03:41:44Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-04-07T03:42:30Z steelbird quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-07T03:49:24Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-07T03:50:18Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-04-07T03:51:11Z kvsari joined #lisp 2015-04-07T03:54:40Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-04-07T03:54:54Z beach joined #lisp 2015-04-07T03:55:02Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-04-07T03:55:12Z Guest22314 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T03:55:42Z Xach: jackc__: what do you get from (ql:where-is-system "usocket")? 2015-04-07T04:00:00Z drmeister: Hi beach! 2015-04-07T04:00:14Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-04-07T04:00:23Z drmeister: I tracked down the problem I described yesterday. 2015-04-07T04:00:41Z beach: Yeah, I saw it in the logs. Can you describe the cause briefly? 2015-04-07T04:01:11Z drmeister: It's no fault of Cleavir - it was an error I made. Return values were being lost when non-local exits unwound the stack over a stack frame created by APPLY or FUNCALL. 2015-04-07T04:01:29Z beach: Isee. 2015-04-07T04:01:31Z beach: I see 2015-04-07T04:02:11Z drmeister: I return values using two mechanisms. If it's just one value I return the value and the number of values in a local variable. More than one value are returned in an array. 2015-04-07T04:02:56Z drmeister: The address of the local variable to store the returned value/#values is usually passed as a pointer but sometimes I returned it as the return value of the function. 2015-04-07T04:03:35Z drmeister: If a non-local exit unwound the stack over a stack frame where the returned value/#values was returned from the function the second way it was lost. 2015-04-07T04:04:16Z beach: I see. 2015-04-07T04:04:37Z drmeister: So what I do now is the code for an UNWIND-INSTRUCTION stores the first returned value/#values into the thread-local array and the landing pad recovers them and stores them in the landing-pads return value. 2015-04-07T04:05:08Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-04-07T04:05:19Z zacts: hi lispers 2015-04-07T04:05:47Z beach: Hello zacts. 2015-04-07T04:06:06Z drmeister: Did you see the minimal test case that I finally identified? 2015-04-07T04:06:07Z beach: drmeister: Have you already re-built everything? 2015-04-07T04:06:14Z beach: drmeister: Yes, I saw it. 2015-04-07T04:06:33Z Xach: jackc__: quicklisp is designed to prefer something available via ASDF's registries to anything in quicklisp 2015-04-07T04:06:47Z Xach: jackc__: if that's not working for you, i am very interested in figuring out why and helping to fix it 2015-04-07T04:07:16Z drmeister: beach: It's rebuilding CClasp now - it will be done in a few minutes and then I'll try and compile something with CClasp. 2015-04-07T04:12:17Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-07T04:12:22Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-07T04:15:53Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-07T04:16:34Z s1n4 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T04:18:04Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-07T04:22:05Z chef__ joined #lisp 2015-04-07T04:22:56Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-07T04:25:18Z chef__ left #lisp 2015-04-07T04:28:09Z beach: It looks to me like there are a few "hints" in the Common Lisp HyperSpec, suggesting first-class global environments. 2015-04-07T04:28:19Z beach: clhs typep 2015-04-07T04:28:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_typep.htm 2015-04-07T04:28:27Z beach: That that one for instance ^. 2015-04-07T04:29:07Z beach: As far as I can tell, there are no lexical constructs that could influence the type of an object, are there? 2015-04-07T04:29:30Z eazar001 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T04:29:46Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T04:29:46Z beach: clhs find-class 2015-04-07T04:29:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_c.htm 2015-04-07T04:29:52Z beach: There is another ^. 2015-04-07T04:32:03Z Guest22314 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-07T04:32:27Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T04:33:44Z eazar001 quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-07T04:35:07Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T04:37:52Z drmeister: beach: I can compile the examples I couldn't compile before and they evaluate properly. 2015-04-07T04:38:23Z drmeister: So I tried to compile "asdf.lisp" --> next problem. 2015-04-07T04:38:35Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/wOQJHM67 2015-04-07T04:39:18Z drmeister: It's complaining that there is no CLEAVIR-ENVIRONMENT:FUNCTION-INFO specialized on MACROLET-ENVIRONMENT? Doesn't this: (defmethod function-info ((environment entry) symbol) take care of that? 2015-04-07T04:40:04Z kori joined #lisp 2015-04-07T04:40:07Z beach: It ought to. 2015-04-07T04:40:47Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-07T04:40:57Z beach: Surely, you have other MACROLETs in there, no? 2015-04-07T04:41:22Z kori left #lisp 2015-04-07T04:41:49Z drmeister: Wait - I don't find macrolet-environment in Cleavir - maybe that's one of mine. 2015-04-07T04:42:49Z drmeister: Ugh - these environments are going to drive me to drink. 2015-04-07T04:44:26Z beach: It's just MACRO I think (the name of the class) 2015-04-07T04:45:24Z beach: There is no MACROLET-ENVIRONMENT in Cleavir. 2015-04-07T04:45:25Z Guest22314 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T04:45:41Z drmeister: Yeah - it's one of mine. 2015-04-07T04:46:08Z beach: What does it do that CLEAVIR-ENV:MACRO doesn't? 2015-04-07T04:46:28Z drmeister: Bootstrap clasp. 2015-04-07T04:47:29Z drmeister: I'm not being facetious - it's an environment that for my interpreter and BClasp. 2015-04-07T04:48:21Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-07T04:49:08Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-04-07T04:54:12Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T04:54:24Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-07T04:56:44Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T04:58:30Z zacts: this land of lisp book is genius 2015-04-07T04:58:38Z zacts: barski is a mad genius 2015-04-07T04:58:46Z zacts: highly entertaining at least, and creative 2015-04-07T05:00:31Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-04-07T05:00:43Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-07T05:06:24Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-07T05:07:51Z NaNDude quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-07T05:11:08Z NaNDude joined #lisp 2015-04-07T05:11:09Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-07T05:15:21Z Jubb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T05:18:00Z bipt joined #lisp 2015-04-07T05:18:29Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-04-07T05:18:50Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-07T05:19:58Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T05:20:11Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-04-07T05:22:03Z Guest22314 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-07T05:22:11Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T05:25:21Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-07T05:30:46Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-07T05:33:08Z Phagus quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-07T05:33:20Z beach: So, are there any other examples in the Common Lisp HyperSpec of operators taking an (optional) environment argument, where the result of the operation would not change as a result of that environment argument being a lexical environment? 2015-04-07T05:35:25Z Guest22314 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T05:35:57Z beach: FIND-CLASS and TYPEP are examples because there are no constructs with lexical scope for introducing types and classes. 2015-04-07T05:36:36Z pillton: CONSTANTP? 2015-04-07T05:37:33Z pillton: COMPILER-MACRO-FUNCTION? 2015-04-07T05:37:50Z beach: Indeed! 2015-04-07T05:39:18Z gigetoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T05:39:30Z beach: One might speculate as to the reason why COMPILER-MACRO-FUNCTION has an environment parameter, but (say) FDEFINITION does not. 2015-04-07T05:40:06Z beach: Oh, that one is not too hard, actually. 2015-04-07T05:40:31Z beach: COMPILER-MACRO-FUNCTION is a compile-time thing, whereas FDEFINITION is a run-time thing. 2015-04-07T05:40:38Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-07T05:40:58Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T05:41:17Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-07T05:41:17Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-04-07T05:41:17Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-07T05:42:46Z beach: So is it fair to say that all the operators of this kind (the ones that take an environment argument, but it is not for lexical environments) are "compile-time operators" that need to distinguish between the compile-time environment and the run-time environment? 2015-04-07T05:43:29Z beach: TYPEP doesn't seem to fit. 2015-04-07T05:44:06Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-07T05:44:12Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T05:44:34Z Zhivago: Given that compile-time is within a run-time ... 2015-04-07T05:45:19Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T05:45:32Z Zhivago: But the environment isn't just a lexical environment, is it? 2015-04-07T05:45:46Z beach: I am trying to avoid pages and pages of text by abbreviating the language a bit. 2015-04-07T05:45:50Z Zhivago: Or, rather it isn't just a local lexical environment. 2015-04-07T05:46:06Z pranavrc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T05:46:12Z Zhivago: Things like constantp are affected by declarations. 2015-04-07T05:46:20Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T05:46:21Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-07T05:46:30Z beach: Lexical declarations? 2015-04-07T05:47:12Z beach: For the operators that I have identified, there have to be multiple GLOBAL environments in order for the ENVIRONMENT argument to make sense. 2015-04-07T05:47:24Z Zhivago: Top-level declarations via declaim, and so on. 2015-04-07T05:47:47Z Zhivago: And there are, if you consider compilation to potentially produce such. 2015-04-07T05:48:14Z Zhivago: Which is why you have all of those exciting clauses about compiling stuff maybe or maybe not screwing up the run-time it compiles in. 2015-04-07T05:48:21Z gko__ joined #lisp 2015-04-07T05:48:24Z beach: Hence my initial statement that there are a few operators in the Common Lisp HyperSpec that suggest the existence of first-class global environments. 2015-04-07T05:49:06Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-07T05:49:08Z Zhivago: Well, not really first class, but multiple, yes. 2015-04-07T05:49:24Z beach: An ENVIRONMENT argument is not first class? 2015-04-07T05:49:29Z beach: Wow! 2015-04-07T05:49:44Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-07T05:49:58Z Zhivago: No-one is required to supply you with anything suitable to supply to those arguments other than NIL. 2015-04-07T05:50:05Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-04-07T05:51:06Z Zhivago: And I think the null environment just gets potentially magically rejiggered underneath that anyhow. 2015-04-07T05:51:26Z thodg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T05:53:14Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-07T05:54:00Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-07T05:55:29Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-07T05:57:03Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-07T05:57:18Z xinau joined #lisp 2015-04-07T05:57:45Z pranavrc_ joined #lisp 2015-04-07T05:58:20Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-07T06:00:35Z x1n4u quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-07T06:02:41Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:04:49Z ggole: Are the environment arguments used in practice? 2015-04-07T06:06:41Z pjb: Yes. 2015-04-07T06:06:53Z pjb: When you write macros, you often have to use them to make the macro correct. 2015-04-07T06:07:29Z ggole: Code walkers? 2015-04-07T06:07:49Z pjb: not even. Just using macroexpand or get-setf-expansion or some other functions inside a macro. 2015-04-07T06:08:01Z ggole: Hmm. 2015-04-07T06:09:01Z pjb: ggole: the point is macrolet and flet/labels. Some functions need to access the local environment. 2015-04-07T06:09:45Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-07T06:13:47Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:14:20Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:17:47Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:18:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:18:36Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-04-07T06:18:36Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:19:30Z beach: pjb: I found a way to avoid duplicating ASDF components for "test" systems": http://paste.lisp.org/+35B5 2015-04-07T06:19:32Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-07T06:19:36Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-07T06:20:00Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:20:26Z beach: There is as much code as there would be repeating the components, but at least there is no duplication. 2015-04-07T06:20:35Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-07T06:20:46Z pjb: Why not just write: :depends-on ("cleavir-code-utilities" "sicl-stream") 2015-04-07T06:21:08Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-07T06:21:28Z beach: Because SICL-STREAM has a package that does not shadow Common Lisp symbols. 2015-04-07T06:21:38Z jlarocco_work joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:21:55Z beach: That was the problem I was trying to solve. 2015-04-07T06:21:55Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:22:12Z beach: Two systems that are the same except for the definition of the package. 2015-04-07T06:22:23Z pjb: beach: I don't feel it's a good idea to shadow CL stuff when testing. Now perhaps when testing an implementation it's required, so your way might be necessary. 2015-04-07T06:22:51Z drmeister: beach: A week or so ago we were talking about how I should implement EVAL for Cleavir using COMPILE in a way that I would avoid an infinite loop - could you describe that for me again? 2015-04-07T06:23:01Z beach: pjb: If you have a different way, I am all ears. 2015-04-07T06:23:35Z drmeister: I was not supposed to compile constants and immediate values? 2015-04-07T06:23:58Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:24:14Z pjb: To test a package P, I define a package P.TEST which uses P and where the tests are defined. P.TEST may also import some internal symbols from P if they must also be tested. 2015-04-07T06:24:14Z beach: drmeister: Anything that, when compiled, gives a load-time-value that is at least as complicated as the stuff you are compiling should not be compiled. 2015-04-07T06:24:49Z agumonkey quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-07T06:25:22Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-07T06:25:44Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:25:45Z cadadar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T06:26:02Z drmeister: I use my builtin EVAL for those? 2015-04-07T06:26:16Z beach: drmeister: You could. I don't do that because I don't have one. 2015-04-07T06:26:31Z beach: drmeister: I test for special cases and evaluate them with a special rule. 2015-04-07T06:26:32Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:26:37Z drmeister: Was there an example in the Cleavir/SICL code? 2015-04-07T06:26:38Z beach: pjb: What if P contains a definition of a Common Lisp operator that I need to test. 2015-04-07T06:26:39Z beach: ? 2015-04-07T06:27:32Z pjb: Well, most probably this same operator would also be needed to write the tests, so you will have to write one symbol fully qualified. 2015-04-07T06:27:56Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:28:04Z drmeister: Because I'm using my builtin EVAL for everything and that is causing me trouble 2015-04-07T06:28:04Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:28:24Z beach: drmeister: In SICL, a reference to a global function compiles to (car (load-time-value (sicl-genv:function-cell ' (sicl-env:global-environment)))) 2015-04-07T06:28:34Z pjb: For example: (define-test sicl/if () (let ((r (sicl:if t :yes :no))) (unless (eq r :yes) (test-failed)))) 2015-04-07T06:29:07Z beach: pjb: sicl:if and cl:if are the same. 2015-04-07T06:29:40Z pjb: ok, since they're special operators. s/if/cond/ 2015-04-07T06:30:15Z beach: drmeister: So when (sicl-genv:function-cell ' (sicl-env:global-environment)) is compiled at load time, sicl-genv:function-cell is a reference to a global function. 2015-04-07T06:30:36Z beach: drmeister: So I get a circular dependency. 2015-04-07T06:30:54Z beach: pjb: It has nothing to do with them being special operators. 2015-04-07T06:31:12Z beach: pjb: It has to do with not wanting to define my Common Lisp operators in a different package. 2015-04-07T06:31:18Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:31:24Z drmeister: Ok, thanks. 2015-04-07T06:31:25Z beach: ... except for in the "test" system. 2015-04-07T06:32:14Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T06:32:41Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:33:01Z beach: drmeister: So I handle references like (sicl-genv:function-cell 'sicl-genv:function-cell ....) as exceptions. 2015-04-07T06:33:09Z pjb: That seems difficily, notably when bootstrapping. 2015-04-07T06:35:02Z beach: pjb: Oh, I am sorry, I thought you remembered this from before. That's the very basis of what I need. I want my definitions to look "natural", so that I have (defpackage sicl-loop (:use #:common-lisp)) and then (cl:in-package #:sicl-loop) (defmacro loop ...) 2015-04-07T06:35:12Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T06:35:44Z pjb: You cannot do that conformingly in an existing implementation. 2015-04-07T06:35:47Z beach: pjb: This is not a problem when I load my code into a SICL first-class global environments inside the host, but I am looking for a way to test my code in the host. 2015-04-07T06:35:50Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:35:53Z beach: *sigh* 2015-04-07T06:36:43Z pillton: beach: Why not just have (:file "loader") and do what you need in there. 2015-04-07T06:36:49Z beach: pjb: I can do what I want when I load it into a SICL first-class global environments. The problem is that I need to define a "test" system in the host, and then I want the package to shadow the Common Lisp symbols. 2015-04-07T06:37:10Z beach: pillton: An not use ASDF. Sure, I could do that. 2015-04-07T06:37:40Z pillton: beach: I think you can list your source files as :static-file rather than :file so they don't get loaded. 2015-04-07T06:38:31Z pjb: Yes. When you write the tests, you may have to define functions to check or build the test in the host environments, and some functions (to be tested) in the sicl environments. Then you might want to run the testing function in the host environment, and it has to call and run the tested function in the sicl environment, and then check the result in the host environment. 2015-04-07T06:38:32Z beach: pillton: What would that buy me? 2015-04-07T06:38:41Z easye joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:39:13Z pjb: Once some base functionality has been valided, you may run the remaining tests in the sicl environment (eg. the ansi-tests). 2015-04-07T06:39:14Z pillton: beach: The file "loader" should be (re)loaded every time one of your source files changes. 2015-04-07T06:40:13Z beach: pillton: I am sorry, but I am lost. I guess I don't know enough of ASDF. 2015-04-07T06:40:36Z pjb: So, in anycase, your defsystem should work for your purpose. 2015-04-07T06:40:52Z beach: pjb: The very point is to be able to test a module before I load it into a SICL first-class global environment. 2015-04-07T06:41:11Z beach: pjb: But let's drop it. It's not impoortant. 2015-04-07T06:41:13Z beach: important. 2015-04-07T06:41:14Z pjb: In that case, you definitely don't want to clobber CL definitions. 2015-04-07T06:41:26Z beach: pjb: Exactly. 2015-04-07T06:42:14Z beach: pillton: Let's say I have a "module" that implements some Common Lisp code... 2015-04-07T06:42:36Z beach: pillton: I have a package definition that looks like this (defpackage sicl-module (:use #:common-lisp)) 2015-04-07T06:42:59Z beach: pillton: And I have a bunch of files, packages.lisp, a.lisp b.lisp ... z.lisp. 2015-04-07T06:43:21Z pranavrc_ quit 2015-04-07T06:43:28Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:43:39Z beach: pillton: I would like an ASDF system that compiles and loads all those files in the target environment. It should look "natural". 2015-04-07T06:44:01Z beach: pillton: Now I want to define a system called sicl-module-test. 2015-04-07T06:44:01Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:44:14Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:44:14Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-04-07T06:44:14Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:44:41Z beach: pillton: It should load all the files EXCEPT packages.lisp, which it should replace with a different definition of the same package, but that shadows the Common Lisp symbols. 2015-04-07T06:44:49Z beach: pillton: How should I organize it? 2015-04-07T06:44:57Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T06:46:05Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:47:00Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-07T06:47:07Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:49:19Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-07T06:49:35Z zacts` joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:52:50Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-07T06:54:28Z pillton: What I had in mind would be longer than what you have. 2015-04-07T06:55:10Z beach: Oh. OK. Thanks anyway. :) 2015-04-07T06:55:39Z xinau quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-07T06:57:05Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-07T06:57:40Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-07T06:58:00Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:00:15Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T07:03:10Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:04:13Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:04:40Z zacts` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-07T07:05:46Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-07T07:05:48Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:08:13Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-07T07:10:17Z aerique joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:11:19Z thodg joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:12:22Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:12:56Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T07:14:12Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:15:36Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-07T07:16:01Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:17:39Z REPLeffect quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-07T07:18:54Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:18:59Z thodg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-07T07:20:34Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:20:57Z wicope joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:20:58Z wicope quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-07T07:22:55Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:24:09Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:24:41Z paul0` joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:26:07Z ajtulloc_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T07:26:13Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-07T07:27:44Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-04-07T07:27:44Z pt1_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-07T07:28:25Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-07T07:30:10Z wicope joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:30:10Z wicope quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-07T07:30:22Z beach: Time to get to work! 2015-04-07T07:30:25Z beach left #lisp 2015-04-07T07:31:06Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T07:32:23Z harish joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:35:33Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:37:11Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:37:54Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-07T07:39:23Z Posterdati: hi 2015-04-07T07:40:05Z pjb: hi 2015-04-07T07:41:13Z posterdati300 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:44:33Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-07T07:45:11Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:46:48Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:47:56Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-07T07:49:11Z arenz joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:51:53Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:52:16Z Posterdati: ... 2015-04-07T07:52:40Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T07:57:22Z wicope joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:57:27Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T07:57:39Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-07T07:57:58Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T07:58:07Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-07T08:02:03Z Guest22314 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-07T08:02:32Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-07T08:04:28Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-04-07T08:07:48Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-07T08:10:40Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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What do your logs say? 2015-04-07T08:48:33Z nowhere_man: the server is on localhost 2015-04-07T08:48:44Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-07T08:48:58Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-04-07T08:49:01Z H4ns: what is backing elephant? 2015-04-07T08:49:01Z pjb: What do your logs say? 2015-04-07T08:49:54Z nowhere_man: H4ns: sqlite 2015-04-07T08:50:07Z nowhere_man: pjb: which logs would contain DNS requests? 2015-04-07T08:50:08Z gensym joined #lisp 2015-04-07T08:50:56Z pjb: nowhere_man: your very own logs should show the time the connection is made, the time the request is received and the time the answer is sent back. 2015-04-07T08:53:58Z wicope joined #lisp 2015-04-07T08:53:59Z wicope quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-07T08:54:01Z nowhere_man: pjb: I checked, the second I click on the form, the code is executed, and it makes its own HTTP request, that shows up the same second 2015-04-07T08:54:31Z H4ns: 30s sounds like a http request flushing problem 2015-04-07T08:54:55Z H4ns: 1s database response time is terrible, but 30s is certainly beyond acceptable. 2015-04-07T08:55:31Z H4ns: is it possible that you're somehow not flushing the results of your requests to the http stream properly? how do your handlers write to the client? 2015-04-07T08:56:11Z pjb: and finish-output ? 2015-04-07T08:56:52Z nowhere_man: my code reads a manifest and creates objects from that; with a short manifest (10 lines), it takes about a second to execute and show the page 2015-04-07T08:57:02Z nowhere_man: with a long manifest (177 lines), it takes the 30s 2015-04-07T08:57:21Z nowhere_man: which would make me think it's not a flushing problem… 2015-04-07T08:57:32Z H4ns: right, that sounds different 2015-04-07T08:57:58Z nowhere_man: is there a way to profile everything? 2015-04-07T08:58:07Z H4ns: yes, with the statistical profiler 2015-04-07T08:58:11Z H4ns: sb-sprof 2015-04-07T08:58:33Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-07T08:59:28Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-04-07T08:59:29Z Pastaf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-07T09:00:39Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2015-04-07T09:00:47Z nowhere_man: H4ns: ha yes, I had only seen the with-profiling but there's start-profiling also, thx 2015-04-07T09:03:04Z netroby quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T09:03:34Z d4ryus_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-07T09:04:08Z posterdati300 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T09:13:25Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-07T09:13:41Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T09:18:45Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2015-04-07T09:19:16Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-07T09:22:01Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-07T09:23:12Z xan_ joined #lisp 2015-04-07T09:23:56Z dfox quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-07T09:26:28Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T09:27:44Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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;-) 2015-04-07T10:45:19Z sally: u are helping people as far i know 2015-04-07T10:45:33Z sally: :) 2015-04-07T10:45:54Z pranavrc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T10:45:57Z dim: there's a untold policy that we don't do their homework assignments tho 2015-04-07T10:45:58Z cadadar quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-07T10:46:05Z dim: because that's not helping 2015-04-07T10:46:13Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-07T10:46:13Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-04-07T10:46:13Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-07T10:46:41Z sally: ok 2015-04-07T10:46:47Z sally: thanks 2015-04-07T10:47:17Z sally: but i tried to do it and i have idya about how doing it but its not working 2015-04-07T10:47:35Z antoineB left #lisp 2015-04-07T10:47:45Z sally: im not telling u to solve my home work i m telling u to see why its not work 2015-04-07T10:47:51Z dim: that's different, there we can help, you need to provide specific questions with examples, not random copy/paste of fragments of code, tho 2015-04-07T10:48:19Z sally: ok 2015-04-07T10:48:29Z dim: so begin with writing down the specifications of the program in a comment, and provide a bunch of input and output that you expect to have 2015-04-07T10:48:36Z sally: how can i go out of infinte loop 2015-04-07T10:48:57Z dim: then we will be able to help with an example of input/code/output that doesn't match what you want 2015-04-07T10:49:16Z sally: its a diffrent one 2015-04-07T10:49:33Z sally: it workeed but infinitly 2015-04-07T10:49:46Z sally: so i tried to do this 2015-04-07T10:50:02Z selat quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-07T10:50:05Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-04-07T10:50:17Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-07T10:52:37Z yrdz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-07T10:56:47Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T10:57:25Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-07T11:00:20Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-07T11:02:01Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-07T11:02:03Z Guest22314 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-07T11:04:23Z agumonkey quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-07T11:05:39Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-07T11:06:01Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-04-07T11:12:25Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-07T11:13:27Z ebrasca quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-07T11:15:25Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-04-07T11:15:30Z Guest22314 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T11:17:24Z hitecnologys quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T11:18:10Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-07T11:18:14Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-04-07T11:18:22Z beach joined #lisp 2015-04-07T11:18:58Z beach: Good afternoon everyone! 2015-04-07T11:20:00Z beach: sally: You have more than 50 problem in 25 lines of code. Where did you learn to write programs this way? 2015-04-07T11:20:30Z sally: im trying anthor way 2015-04-07T11:20:40Z beach: It won't be any better. 2015-04-07T11:20:48Z beach: Where did you learn to program? 2015-04-07T11:21:03Z sally: im still new in lisp learning the basics 2015-04-07T11:21:04Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-07T11:21:22Z sally: how should i start 2015-04-07T11:21:36Z beach: sally: It wouldn't matter what programming language you use. It would look like crap anyway. 2015-04-07T11:21:50Z beach: sally: What programming languages do you use already? 2015-04-07T11:22:02Z sally: java 2015-04-07T11:22:17Z beach: I feel very sorry for people reading your code. 2015-04-07T11:22:44Z beach: sally: When you put a blank line in your code, be int Common Lisp or Java, what does it mean? 2015-04-07T11:22:52Z beach: be it 2015-04-07T11:23:48Z sally: i separate lines trying to organize the coode 2015-04-07T11:24:22Z sally: im using lispide it dosint organize code 2015-04-07T11:24:45Z beach: What is the significance? I mean sometimes you put no blank line, sometimes 1, sometimes 2. What is the difference? 2015-04-07T11:25:03Z beach: sally: Also, what is your native language? 2015-04-07T11:25:23Z sally: arabic why this is important 2015-04-07T11:25:38Z beach: sally: Start by digging out a dictionary and find out the correct English spelling of the terms that you are dealing with. 2015-04-07T11:25:52Z beach: sally: It is incredibly rude to submit code like this for others to read. 2015-04-07T11:26:12Z sally: ok thanks 2015-04-07T11:26:17Z beach: sally: What is the significance of spaces after an opening parenthesis? 2015-04-07T11:26:25Z beach: Sometimes you put one, sometimes you don't? 2015-04-07T11:26:33Z beach: Is this also "organization"? 2015-04-07T11:26:41Z beach: If so, you need to think again. 2015-04-07T11:26:50Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-07T11:26:57Z beach: There is no way you will ever be able to program if you are this disorganized. 2015-04-07T11:27:15Z beach: No matter what programming language you use. 2015-04-07T11:28:06Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T11:28:45Z beach: sally: Go home, use a real editor to indent your code. Make sure the spacing is correct and consistent. Use English in comments. THEN ask for help maybe. 2015-04-07T11:29:11Z beach: sally: In Java what happens in a method if you assign a value to its parameter? 2015-04-07T11:29:37Z beach: sally: The same thing happens in Common Lisp. So why do you assign to strin-? 2015-04-07T11:29:48Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-07T11:29:49Z beach: sally: And why is it called "strin-" by the way? 2015-04-07T11:29:53Z beach: etc, etc, etc, etc. 2015-04-07T11:30:23Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-04-07T11:30:28Z sally quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-07T11:30:44Z pranavrc_ joined #lisp 2015-04-07T11:31:03Z beach: Sorry about that. The paste just made me so upset I couldn't let go. 2015-04-07T11:31:07Z beach: Back to work. 2015-04-07T11:31:10Z beach left #lisp 2015-04-07T11:32:28Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-07T11:32:41Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-07T11:34:25Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-07T11:36:28Z gbr_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-04-07T11:36:31Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-07T11:37:09Z pranavrc_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-07T11:38:49Z ski quit (Ping timeout: 251 seconds) 2015-04-07T11:40:40Z ski joined #lisp 2015-04-07T11:40:43Z DrWat|ZZZzzz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T11:40:55Z DrWat|ZZZzzz joined #lisp 2015-04-07T11:42:10Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-07T11:42:21Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-07T11:42:43Z arrubin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T11:44:22Z brent80_plow quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-07T11:47:04Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-07T11:47:07Z brent80_plow joined #lisp 2015-04-07T11:47:46Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-04-07T11:47:47Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-07T11:53:29Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-04-07T11:53:52Z Posterdati: froggey: hi 2015-04-07T11:53:59Z Posterdati: pjb: ho 2015-04-07T11:54:31Z przl_ joined #lisp 2015-04-07T11:57:41Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-07T11:58:03Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-07T11:59:57Z hlavaty: hi, should (close a-two-way-stream) close the underlying streams or not? 2015-04-07T12:00:38Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:01:06Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-04-07T12:01:07Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:02:07Z netroby quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T12:02:20Z hlavaty: found it: There is no effect on the constituents of composite streams. 2015-04-07T12:03:49Z netroby joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:06:35Z sally joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:07:08Z sally: i dii] 2015-04-07T12:07:18Z sally: i did it and it worked 2015-04-07T12:07:25Z cadadar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T12:07:46Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:08:44Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:08:45Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-04-07T12:09:27Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:10:39Z cmatei joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:16:50Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:19:11Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-07T12:19:25Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:21:32Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:21:45Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2015-04-07T12:24:30Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-07T12:28:01Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:30:37Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:30:37Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-04-07T12:32:34Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-07T12:33:28Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-07T12:33:38Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:35:17Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-07T12:36:55Z minion quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-07T12:37:40Z minion joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:37:49Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:38:52Z cadadar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T12:39:04Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:39:05Z vr-rm joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:39:16Z Xach: jackc__: the suspense is killing me! 2015-04-07T12:39:20Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T12:40:49Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:41:08Z s1n4 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-07T12:41:38Z Guest22314 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-07T12:42:42Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:43:33Z echo-area quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T12:43:37Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-07T12:44:03Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:45:16Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T12:48:13Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:49:33Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:49:54Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:52:01Z shiyaz left #lisp 2015-04-07T12:53:20Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-04-07T12:53:49Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2015-04-07T13:24:41Z smokeink quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T13:25:05Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-04-07T13:25:32Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-07T13:27:22Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-04-07T13:27:23Z ebrasca quit (Quit: ebrasca) 2015-04-07T13:27:32Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-07T13:27:39Z alexherbo2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-07T13:27:56Z cadadar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T13:28:11Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-07T13:29:47Z sheilong left #lisp 2015-04-07T13:31:20Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-07T13:32:59Z jackdaniel: o/ 2015-04-07T13:34:20Z pjb: the feeling of data vu is strong in hitecnologys . 2015-04-07T13:34:54Z hitecnologys: Oops, didn't notice that typo. =| 2015-04-07T13:35:47Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-07T13:36:50Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-07T13:36:54Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T13:38:04Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T13:38:45Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-07T13:39:16Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-04-07T13:39:36Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2015-04-07T13:40:23Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T13:43:18Z netroby: Can you read this code ?(select :* (from :users) (where (= :country_code "GB"))) 2015-04-07T13:43:50Z pjb: Of course. 2015-04-07T13:43:55Z pjb: What's the problem? 2015-04-07T13:44:12Z netroby: Is it easy to translate to SQL ? 2015-04-07T13:44:27Z pjb: There seems to be an easy and direct match to SQL indeed. 2015-04-07T13:45:26Z oleo: hello :) 2015-04-07T13:45:49Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-04-07T13:47:27Z Xach: netroby: s-sql (part of postmodern) translates a very similar syntax to sql strings. 2015-04-07T13:47:45Z Xach: netroby: you can use s-sql without using postgres. i used to use it to create Sybase queries. 2015-04-07T13:49:15Z alexherbo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-07T13:49:36Z netroby: Oh. thanks. i am using Clojure now, which is similar to Common Lisp. 2015-04-07T13:49:43Z jackc__: Xach: sorry for the delay - i went to sleep! 2015-04-07T13:49:47Z jackc__: heres what ql thinks: 2015-04-07T13:49:47Z jackc__: CL-USER> (ql:where-is-system "usocket") 2015-04-07T13:49:48Z jackc__: #P"/Users/jackc/bin/src/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/usocket-0.6.1/" 2015-04-07T13:50:07Z jackc__: (yes that path is whacked, dont ask) 2015-04-07T13:51:00Z jackc__: Xach: in summary, it looks as though the QL ver of usocket is in fact the same as the one i fetched with git; looks like the hunchentoot bug isnt related to the usocket bug i found 2015-04-07T13:51:23Z jackc__: or rather, the hunchentoot bug isnt a usocket bug. 2015-04-07T13:52:11Z xan_ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-07T13:53:13Z Xach: jackc__: where (on the filesystem) is the usocket you downloaded separately? 2015-04-07T13:53:27Z Xach: netroby: not really. 2015-04-07T13:54:08Z nowhere_man: wow, I switched Elephant from sqlite to postgres, processing time went from 30s to 13s, then I added a transaction in my code, and time went to 3s 2015-04-07T13:54:11Z Xach: jackc__: or is there not really any problem any more? it was using git when you expected it? 2015-04-07T13:56:06Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-07T14:02:26Z heddwch quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-04-07T14:03:30Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-04-07T14:03:50Z jackc__: Xach: i pulled usocket to something like /tmp/lib and pushed it onto the asdf registry, but it has the same version number as the one in QL dists so i can see why it wasnt loaded 2015-04-07T14:04:25Z jackc__: Xach: i do still get an error from hunchentoot as nothing has changed there, but it looks as though my quicklisp stuff is working as expected - my fault 2015-04-07T14:06:17Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-07T14:09:38Z qubitnerd quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-07T14:12:20Z heddwch is now known as shikharound 2015-04-07T14:13:03Z Xach: jackc__: versions don't come into play when choosing what to load, only the asdf registry matters 2015-04-07T14:13:19Z ruste joined #lisp 2015-04-07T14:13:27Z shikharound is now known as headwitch 2015-04-07T14:13:45Z jackc__: Xach: ah - what happens in this situation when there are two .asd's with the same package? 2015-04-07T14:14:05Z jackc__: (sorry for not RTFMing) 2015-04-07T14:14:19Z jackc__ is now known as jackc- 2015-04-07T14:14:21Z headwitch is now known as sammwch 2015-04-07T14:15:22Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T14:15:42Z oleo is now known as Guest63161 2015-04-07T14:15:47Z sammwch is now known as headwitch 2015-04-07T14:16:15Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-07T14:16:37Z xan_ joined #lisp 2015-04-07T14:17:58Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-04-07T14:18:03Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-07T14:18:03Z headwitch is now known as sammwch 2015-04-07T14:18:11Z sammwch is now known as heddwch 2015-04-07T14:18:36Z Guest63161 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-07T14:20:03Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T14:20:39Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-04-07T14:21:03Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-07T14:21:41Z Xach: jackc-: the one visible via asdf is loaded. 2015-04-07T14:21:58Z gendl joined #lisp 2015-04-07T14:22:22Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-04-07T14:22:24Z jackc-: sorry, unclear - what happens in the case that my asdf registry contains two paths, both of which have a .asd for usocket? 2015-04-07T14:22:26Z heddwch is now known as shikharound 2015-04-07T14:22:29Z zeitue quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-07T14:22:46Z jackc-: how is one chosen over the other, or is it simply the first encountered in the path list? 2015-04-07T14:23:35Z shikharound is now known as shikh 2015-04-07T14:23:44Z shikh is now known as heddwch 2015-04-07T14:23:55Z Xach: jackc-: there is a list of functions that search for systems. the built-in asdf functions come before the quicklisp functions. 2015-04-07T14:24:12Z Xach: jackc-: if there are multiple .asds visible via asdf, i'm not sure how it chooses. but it will always choose the asdf ones before the quicklisp ones. 2015-04-07T14:25:00Z jackc-: ahh ok, that makes sense 2015-04-07T14:25:01Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-04-07T14:25:05Z jackc-: thanks 2015-04-07T14:25:09Z gendl quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-07T14:25:30Z heddwch is now known as heddwycat 2015-04-07T14:26:12Z netroby quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T14:27:18Z steelbird joined #lisp 2015-04-07T14:27:42Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T14:28:01Z antgreen quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-07T14:29:08Z s1n4 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T14:32:06Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-07T14:33:52Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-07T14:34:49Z przl_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-07T14:35:05Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-07T14:35:12Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-07T14:36:39Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-07T14:36:39Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-07T14:38:10Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-07T14:39:37Z harish_ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-04-07T14:39:46Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-07T14:39:57Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2015-04-07T14:40:16Z harish joined #lisp 2015-04-07T14:43:29Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-07T14:44:26Z gendl joined #lisp 2015-04-07T14:45:25Z steelbird quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-07T14:46:15Z heddwycat is now known as heddwch 2015-04-07T14:46:42Z burtons quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-07T14:47:45Z kvsari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T14:49:40Z pyon is now known as combinatory-pyon 2015-04-07T14:50:53Z combinatory-pyon is now known as pyon-binator 2015-04-07T14:52:09Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-07T14:52:21Z KarlDscc joined #lisp 2015-04-07T14:53:23Z Karl_Dscc quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-07T14:54:04Z larion joined #lisp 2015-04-07T14:54:06Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-07T14:56:26Z gendl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T14:58:29Z gendl joined #lisp 2015-04-07T14:59:06Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-04-07T14:59:34Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2015-04-07T15:00:33Z shka joined #lisp 2015-04-07T15:05:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-07T15:10:06Z dfinninger joined #lisp 2015-04-07T15:10:13Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-07T15:11:50Z dfinning_ joined #lisp 2015-04-07T15:11:53Z dfinninger quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T15:13:11Z gendl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-07T15:13:57Z gendl joined #lisp 2015-04-07T15:13:59Z balle joined #lisp 2015-04-07T15:16:24Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-07T15:16:43Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-07T15:21:15Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-04-07T15:22:22Z gendl quit (Quit: gendl) 2015-04-07T15:22:51Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-07T15:23:52Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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In particular a linux host to a windows target would save me having to spin up a VM 2015-04-07T16:21:28Z Shinmera: I've heard that you can use SBCL with WINE to generate windows binaries. 2015-04-07T16:21:46Z jasom: FASLs are nearly good enough (and probably easier to find) 2015-04-07T16:21:55Z jasom: Shinmera: oh, that's an idea. 2015-04-07T16:22:13Z smokeink quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-07T16:22:17Z Shinmera: FASLs f.e. with SBCL are very wonky: They won't even load between different SBCL versions. 2015-04-07T16:22:26Z jasom: Shinmera: oh, you're right 2015-04-07T16:22:38Z jasom: clisp is much more forgiving with FASLs 2015-04-07T16:22:42Z Shinmera: I don't know about other implementations. 2015-04-07T16:24:02Z gendl joined #lisp 2015-04-07T16:24:14Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-07T16:24:18Z jasom: with clisp you can build a bunch of FASLs, cat them together and load them pretty much anywhere 2015-04-07T16:24:47Z jasom: obviously if *features* is different, it may not do what you want 2015-04-07T16:24:55Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-07T16:25:05Z Guest22314 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T16:32:24Z HoloIRCUser joined #lisp 2015-04-07T16:32:44Z HoloIRCUser is now known as Reku 2015-04-07T16:33:27Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-04-07T16:33:38Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2015-04-07T16:33:38Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-04-07T16:33:38Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-07T16:34:56Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-07T16:34:57Z Reku quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T16:36:39Z shka quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-07T16:37:25Z posterdati300 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T16:38:01Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-07T16:38:21Z gendl quit (Quit: gendl) 2015-04-07T16:41:11Z shka joined #lisp 2015-04-07T16:41:16Z Wojciech_K joined #lisp 2015-04-07T16:41:24Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-07T16:42:09Z posterdati300 quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-07T16:48:25Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-07T16:50:37Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-07T16:51:49Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-04-07T16:52:10Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-07T16:54:57Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-07T16:56:42Z hjs quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-07T16:57:12Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-07T17:00:55Z tessier quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T17:01:24Z tessier joined #lisp 2015-04-07T17:05:29Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-04-07T17:06:08Z intinig quit 2015-04-07T17:06:14Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-07T17:07:00Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T17:07:35Z larion joined #lisp 2015-04-07T17:09:09Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-04-07T17:09:43Z gklimowicz joined #lisp 2015-04-07T17:10:12Z zeroish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T17:11:04Z jlarocco_work quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-07T17:11:43Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-04-07T17:13:22Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-07T17:15:03Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T17:22:51Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-07T17:23:13Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-07T17:25:18Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-04-07T17:29:17Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T17:29:19Z Pastaf joined #lisp 2015-04-07T17:32:29Z renopt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-07T17:32:41Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-07T17:34:38Z Bicyclid1ne joined #lisp 2015-04-07T17:36:21Z froggey: Posterdati: hi 2015-04-07T17:37:10Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-07T17:37:13Z Posterdati: froggey: any news? 2015-04-07T17:37:20Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-07T17:37:38Z xinau joined #lisp 2015-04-07T17:38:16Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-07T17:38:23Z froggey: did you see the patch to the file-server I linked to you yesterday? 2015-04-07T17:38:52Z froggey: that replaces iolib with sb-bsd-sockets, that seems to fix the crashing 2015-04-07T17:41:00Z Wojciech_ joined #lisp 2015-04-07T17:42:58Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-04-07T17:43:42Z Posterdati: froggey: damn no! 2015-04-07T17:44:22Z Wojciech_K quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-07T17:44:23Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-07T17:44:55Z Posterdati: please post it again 2015-04-07T17:45:29Z froggey: open up file-server/server.lisp and replace run-file-server with: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146841 2015-04-07T17:45:46Z Posterdati: tx 2015-04-07T17:46:42Z pyon-binator is now known as dysfunc-pyon-al 2015-04-07T17:48:37Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T17:49:00Z shka joined #lisp 2015-04-07T17:49:11Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-07T17:49:24Z Posterdati: froggey: which one? #-lisp-os or #+lisp-os 2015-04-07T17:49:25Z Posterdati: ? 2015-04-07T17:50:12Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-07T17:50:14Z froggey: #-lisp-os 2015-04-07T17:51:15Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T17:51:20Z Posterdati: with accept too? 2015-04-07T17:51:33Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-04-07T17:51:38Z froggey: yes, and the (require ..) line 2015-04-07T17:52:27Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-04-07T17:52:41Z Posterdati: shall I change :depends-on removing iolib and addinf sb-...? 2015-04-07T17:53:19Z Posterdati: in the .asd file I mean 2015-04-07T17:53:26Z froggey: sure 2015-04-07T17:53:43Z Posterdati: so no require is required! 2015-04-07T17:53:44Z Posterdati: lol 2015-04-07T17:54:04Z froggey: I've pushed a properly cleaned up version to my repo, but I don't know if you can use it with the makefile patch 2015-04-07T17:54:27Z Posterdati: make image 2015-04-07T17:54:28Z Posterdati: ... 2015-04-07T17:59:37Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-04-07T17:59:43Z Posterdati: ok 2015-04-07T17:59:58Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-07T18:01:04Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T18:01:44Z Posterdati: froggey: I've got a red line over the sys.int repl 2015-04-07T18:02:12Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-07T18:02:22Z froggey: it crashed. can you paste the serial log somewhere? 2015-04-07T18:02:39Z Posterdati: I could send you the log file 2015-04-07T18:02:52Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-07T18:02:52Z froggey: that's fine. you have my email address? 2015-04-07T18:03:26Z Posterdati: not dcc 2015-04-07T18:03:33Z Posterdati: no I haven't got it 2015-04-07T18:03:53Z hjs joined #lisp 2015-04-07T18:03:57Z Posterdati: but wait I'm using kvm now 2015-04-07T18:04:37Z froggey Posterdati henry.harrington@gmail.com 2015-04-07T18:04:42Z Posterdati: ok 2015-04-07T18:04:50Z froggey: oops. that wasn't msg, oh well 2015-04-07T18:05:31Z Posterdati: Probing ata controller.6 2015-04-07T18:05:31Z Posterdati: IDENTIFY aborted by device.2 2015-04-07T18:05:37Z Posterdati: what is that now? 2015-04-07T18:05:49Z someone quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-07T18:05:59Z Posterdati: emu-system-x86_64 -hda mezzano.image -m 512M -serial file:/home/angel/Development/Mezzano/mezzano.log -vga std -net user,hostfwd=tcp::7777-:80 -net nic,model=virtio -net dump,file=qemu.pcap -monitor vc:100Cx50C 2015-04-07T18:06:30Z froggey: that's normal. cd drives don't support the ATA IDENTIFY command, they want the IDENTIFY PACKET command instead 2015-04-07T18:06:45Z froggey: I haven't implemented CD support yet 2015-04-07T18:06:47Z Posterdati: but it gave me the red line 2015-04-07T18:07:03Z froggey: are there no messages below that? 2015-04-07T18:07:15Z Posterdati: yes 2015-04-07T18:07:38Z Posterdati: New controller at 1F0 3F0 C021 E0 2015-04-07T18:07:52Z Posterdati: Probing ata controller.0 2015-04-07T18:07:53Z Posterdati: Timeout while waiting for DRQ during IDENTIFY. 2015-04-07T18:08:16Z Posterdati: ah ok 2015-04-07T18:08:21Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-07T18:08:26Z dxtr quit (Changing host) 2015-04-07T18:08:26Z dxtr joined #lisp 2015-04-07T18:08:28Z Posterdati: recompiled the image with fileserver running 2015-04-07T18:08:34Z Posterdati: seems to go now 2015-04-07T18:08:50Z Posterdati: using qemu now 2015-04-07T18:08:56Z Posterdati: instead kvm 2015-04-07T18:09:01Z froggey: ok 2015-04-07T18:09:14Z Posterdati: just the command you gave me 2015-04-07T18:09:25Z hjs: I want to use some packages like Antik & GSLL on a machine thtat's behind a firewall, so I can't install them using ql:quickload, which bundles up pulling the source from the internet with building the packages. Does anyone know of an easy way to use quicklisp on a machine that's blocked from the internet? For example, hooks so that I can pull down the software on one machine, then copy it to the firewalled machine & compile it there? 2015-04-07T18:10:14Z Shinmera: hjs: Download it on some other machine, copy the quicklisp folder over. 2015-04-07T18:11:11Z hjs: So, the entire tree is portable? If I do (ql:quickload "gsll"), it'll figure out that all the sources are there and not try to pull or verify anything from the internet? 2015-04-07T18:11:19Z Shinmera: Yes. 2015-04-07T18:11:34Z hjs: Thanks! I should have tried that before asking. :( 2015-04-07T18:12:02Z someon joined #lisp 2015-04-07T18:12:48Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-04-07T18:14:30Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-04-07T18:15:17Z Posterdati: froggey: it is very slow 2015-04-07T18:16:11Z someon is now known as someone 2015-04-07T18:16:17Z froggey: yes, sorry about that. the latest version should be a bit faster 2015-04-07T18:16:59Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-07T18:17:18Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-07T18:17:37Z hjs: By the way, I have some xlispstat code that I'd like to try speeding up by compiling and running it in sbcl. But the code isn't portable due to the reliance on vectorized operators (like * being able to multiply a list of numbers by a scalar). I thought I'd try using the package common-lisp-stat, but it seems like using gsll & antik might be more compatible with xlispstat for straight computation. Does anyone have any experience with t 2015-04-07T18:18:08Z Posterdati: froggey: I'd like to use mezzano in embedded projects. 2015-04-07T18:18:11Z hjs: Recommendations on how to proceed? 2015-04-07T18:18:48Z froggey: what kind of embedded projects? like on an arduino or raspberry pi? 2015-04-07T18:18:52Z Bicyclid1ne: xlisp isn't very CLy, iirc 2015-04-07T18:19:29Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-07T18:19:42Z Bicyclid1ne: like you're probably not going to be able to load an xlisp file into a cl implementation? 2015-04-07T18:20:12Z Posterdati: froggey: a mips based monster, for example: http://community.imgtec.com/platforms/creator-ci20/?utm_source=imgtec&utm_medium=shorturl&utm_campaign=CreatorLandingPage 2015-04-07T18:20:28Z Posterdati: froggey: or arduino based (avr micros) 2015-04-07T18:20:52Z Posterdati: froggey: I'm about to test an arm compiler and an avr one 2015-04-07T18:21:07Z Posterdati: froggey: it is compiling now! Cool it worked 2015-04-07T18:22:02Z hjs: xlispstat was tending towards being compatible with a subset of CL before it was abandoned. The big differences were the object system (based on Self), the vectorized operations, and all of the added numerical and statistical functions (mean, sum, quantiles, cholesky decompositions, ...). 2015-04-07T18:22:42Z Bicyclid1ne: that seems like enough difference that it is not going to work in CL. 2015-04-07T18:22:49Z Bicyclid1ne: i mean, you'd basically have to port it. 2015-04-07T18:22:59Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-07T18:23:13Z Bicyclid1ne is now known as Bicyclidine 2015-04-07T18:23:14Z dlowe: the alternative is to implement xlispstat 2015-04-07T18:23:19Z dlowe: in CL 2015-04-07T18:23:26Z hjs: Antik seems to vectorize enough of the CL operations for me. I can make do with the numerics from GSLL. 2015-04-07T18:23:47Z froggey: Posterdati: right now it definitely won't run on anything that isn't x86-64. someone (not me) would need to retarget the compiler & runtime for mips, which would be quite a hard job 2015-04-07T18:23:48Z Posterdati: froggey: http://www.imgtec.com/ 2015-04-07T18:23:49Z hjs: Implementing xlispstat in CL is what the common-lisp-stat project was doing, except they didn't try for compatibility. 2015-04-07T18:24:23Z jasom: anyone have a decent benchmark for exercising compile-speed? 2015-04-07T18:24:38Z Bicyclidine: i mean, without knowing anything else about the system i'd guess that using an incomplete port is probably a better idea than trying to load a python file or some shit, you know? 2015-04-07T18:24:48Z froggey: and I think most AVR chips are would just be too small. not enough memory. I'm mostly targeting desktop/laptop computers 2015-04-07T18:25:11Z Posterdati: froggey: there's clisp on mips (debian wheezy) one could recompile using that compiler 2015-04-07T18:25:18Z Bicyclidine: where did xlisp come from, anyway... i knew about nyquist but that was about it. what a weird thing 2015-04-07T18:25:22Z jasom: froggey: if you could swap to an SDCard then it should work, just a bit slow. 2015-04-07T18:25:38Z Posterdati: froggey: avr chips are small, but one could consider a subset 2015-04-07T18:26:40Z Posterdati: froggey: or an Arduino-like programming environment made in lisp under emacs 2015-04-07T18:26:45Z hjs: So, just for vectorized operations, some basic stats and linear algebra, just GSLL + Antik might be close enough that it'd be an easy port, as opposed to common-lisp-stat. 2015-04-07T18:27:21Z Bicyclidine: you could give it a shot, i guess. dunno that anyone around here knows xlisp at all though. 2015-04-07T18:27:24Z ggole quit 2015-04-07T18:27:39Z renopt joined #lisp 2015-04-07T18:27:41Z Posterdati: froggey: you develop using lisp and the compiler would output the binary target on the chip 2015-04-07T18:28:07Z Posterdati: froggey: like Arduino does 2015-04-07T18:29:04Z Bicyclidine: isn't a cross compiler different from mezzano which is an operating system that includes a compiler 2015-04-07T18:29:30Z Posterdati: Bicyclidine: yes it is another animal 2015-04-07T18:29:33Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-04-07T18:29:36Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-07T18:29:37Z rhllor quit (Quit: rhllor) 2015-04-07T18:29:41Z hjs: Yes, it's a shame that xlispstat was started by hacking xlisp instead of by using a CL. But in those days, there weren't many (any?) free CL implementations for PCs. xlispstat was started in 1990. Linux wasn't even V1.0 until about 1993 2015-04-07T18:29:59Z ajtulloc_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T18:30:01Z Posterdati: Bicyclidine: for smaller micros something like Arduino would be great 2015-04-07T18:31:03Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-04-07T18:31:26Z jasom: hjs: when was minix running on a 386? 2015-04-07T18:31:34Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T18:32:25Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-07T18:32:29Z froggey: I'm not sure how mezzano could help here. I think arduino style development would need a considerable different set of tools 2015-04-07T18:32:51Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-07T18:32:52Z jasom: I know my dad had minix running on his AT, but that was borderline not enough ram for a lisp 2015-04-07T18:33:26Z Posterdati: froggey: yes, one could start copying the same functionality (similar api) 2015-04-07T18:33:58Z Posterdati: froggey: but cl could be handy to design little os on these micros 2015-04-07T18:35:08Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-07T18:35:20Z hjs: jasom: Minix was running for a long time, but at the time I don't think it was open. 2015-04-07T18:35:59Z jasom: it was semi-open, you got the source with a text-book, but couldn't redistribute IIRC 2015-04-07T18:36:27Z ajtulloc_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-07T18:36:29Z Bicyclidine: CMUCL existed, i don't know when it was ported to x86 though. 2015-04-07T18:36:52Z hjs: Minix cost $69, and couldn't be hacked & distributed. Didn't become open until 2000. 2015-04-07T18:38:07Z bipt quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-07T18:38:20Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-07T18:40:00Z hjs: cmucl was always very hard to port because you need a lisp to build it and it directly targets the architecture. It didn't get to x86 until the mid 90s, and only on FreeBSD & Linux. 2015-04-07T18:40:15Z dfinning_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T18:40:30Z Bicyclidine: figures. 2015-04-07T18:41:20Z Bicyclidine: anyway i don't mean to criticize the existence of xlisp or something, i'm just wary about loading source files written in one language into another language's system. 2015-04-07T18:42:50Z hjs: yes, it requires porting, but the question is the extent to which there exist packages that make it less of a headache... 2015-04-07T18:42:52Z jasom got ECL built with tcc; it's not much faster at compiling large files though since the faster C compile speed is wiped out by the slower C codegen. 2015-04-07T18:44:05Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-07T18:45:32Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T18:48:34Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-07T18:49:24Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-07T18:49:45Z jackdaniel: jasom: what do you mean by ECL built with tcc? 2015-04-07T18:50:04Z jackdaniel: you built ecl with tcc, or used tcc as backend for compiling generated code? 2015-04-07T18:50:15Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T18:50:29Z jackdaniel was wondering about the latter lately, how it compares 2015-04-07T18:51:08Z bin7me quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-07T18:51:30Z Posterdati: froggey: #2 2015-04-07T18:51:36Z bipt joined #lisp 2015-04-07T18:53:13Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-07T18:53:20Z Posterdati: could you send me that file? 2015-04-07T18:53:27Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-07T18:53:49Z froggey: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Mandarin_Pair.jpg 2015-04-07T18:54:03Z hjs: From the lisp faq, circa 1992 - [6] Where can I get/buy Lisp for the ... architecture? There are about eight free implementations of Lisp and Scheme interpreters and compilers and a dozen or so commercially available Lisp and Scheme implementations. 2015-04-07T18:54:12Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-07T18:54:15Z froggey: you can modify ipl.lisp if you want to change the desktop background 2015-04-07T18:54:50Z Posterdati: ok, to continue compiling? 2015-04-07T18:55:37Z jasom: jackdaniel: both 2015-04-07T18:55:48Z jasom: jackdaniel: I don't know how to do gcc to build it and tcc for compiling generated code 2015-04-07T18:55:59Z jasom had to disable threading as I couldn't find a header to do atomic ops with tcc 2015-04-07T18:56:06Z froggey: you'll have to restart the VM 2015-04-07T18:56:30Z Posterdati: ok 2015-04-07T18:56:42Z jasom: jackdaniel: libffi wouldn't build with tcc either, so I modified the configure script to pass CC=gcc to the libffi config; that was the only change needed 2015-04-07T18:57:03Z jackdaniel: jasom: I'm not sure how exactly to *tell* ECL, to use another backend, but it is definetely possible 2015-04-07T18:57:09Z jackdaniel: how to use* 2015-04-07T18:57:10Z froggey: Posterdati: have you got the home directory set up? it's a directory that contains the fonts, desktop picture and a bunch of libraries 2015-04-07T18:57:20Z hjs: From the lisp faq, circa 1992 - [6] Where can I get/buy Lisp for the ... architecture? There are about eight free implementations of Lisp and Scheme interpreters and compilers and a dozen or so commercially available Lisp and Scheme implementations. 2015-04-07T18:57:39Z Posterdati: froggey: I did setup only fonts 2015-04-07T18:57:56Z jackdaniel: and that could make it compile faster big files (but quality of compiled files would be worse) 2015-04-07T18:57:57Z hjs: The lisps were KCL & ACKL (sparcs & such, ), xlisp (pc, mac, unix), cmucl (sparcs & such), PC Lisp. So, we're talking about the stone age... 2015-04-07T18:57:58Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-07T18:58:08Z jasom: there was a DOS lisp implementation gold or golden or something 2015-04-07T18:58:24Z zacts: hjs: I thought the stone age was the original lisp implementation in lisp 2015-04-07T18:58:25Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T18:58:43Z hjs: Golden Common Lisp (GCLisp) runs on IBM PCs under DOS and Windows, costing $2,000 ... 2015-04-07T18:58:44Z froggey: Posterdati: I think "make install-dependencies" will set it up for you 2015-04-07T18:59:04Z Posterdati: froggey: oh I did it! 2015-04-07T18:59:33Z Posterdati: froggey: I did setup fonts by hand 2015-04-07T18:59:46Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2015-04-07T18:59:52Z froggey: ok 2015-04-07T18:59:55Z hjs: Pretty much if you couldn't buy Lucid, Allegro, Franz or MCL, you were sunk... Lots of different scheme implementations, but no CL with compiler to machine code. 2015-04-07T19:00:46Z jasom: hjs: and IIRC gclisp was an interpreter 2015-04-07T19:01:10Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:01:14Z hjs: The faq says it had an incremental compiler. 2015-04-07T19:01:19Z jasom: oh 2015-04-07T19:01:21Z hjs: I never used it. 2015-04-07T19:02:34Z jasom: jackdaniel: the issue with building ecl with tcc is that the lisp to C compiler is a lot slower, which erases a lot of the benefits of tcc being so much faster than gcc 2015-04-07T19:02:36Z hjs: I used lisp machines in the 80s, then some CL in grad school on school sparcs. Didn't have a good CL on a PC until clisp under Linux. 2015-04-07T19:02:38Z renopt quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-07T19:02:48Z renopt joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:03:06Z jasom: clisp under linux in the late 90s was my first lisp experience 2015-04-07T19:03:28Z jasom: but at that point I looked into the lisps available for PCs and gclisp showed up 2015-04-07T19:03:34Z dfinninger joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:03:34Z jackdaniel: jasom: yes, hence my question. Optimal way, to check potential gain would be building ecl with gcc, and running tcc to compile generated code 2015-04-07T19:04:15Z jasom: jackdaniel: I have a particular file that took gcc ~45 minutes to compile; I'm waiting for ecl to finish generating the C code for it (20 minutes so far) 2015-04-07T19:05:16Z jasom: I have used libtcc bindings for CFFI in the past for making simple system calls that need to build structs. 2015-04-07T19:06:38Z jasom: though I tend to use the CFFI groveller now 2015-04-07T19:07:01Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-07T19:07:29Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:07:56Z Posterdati: froggey: how can I install asdf in mezzano, it complains about it 2015-04-07T19:08:02Z xan_ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-07T19:10:30Z froggey: Posterdati: do you know where install-dependencies downloaded everything to? 2015-04-07T19:11:08Z Posterdati: no 2015-04-07T19:11:18Z froggey: you need to point *home-directory* in ipl.lisp there 2015-04-07T19:11:20Z froggey: hmm 2015-04-07T19:12:09Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:12:18Z Posterdati: #P"REMOTE:/home/angel/Development/Mezzano/asdf/asdf.lisp"1 2015-04-07T19:12:26Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-07T19:12:26Z Posterdati: there's no asdf there 2015-04-07T19:12:27Z C-Keen joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:12:53Z froggey: it looks like it might have put things in ~/Documents/Mezzano/ 2015-04-07T19:12:58Z froggey: anything there? 2015-04-07T19:13:19Z Posterdati: no 2015-04-07T19:13:43Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-07T19:13:45Z Posterdati: (defparameter *file-server-source-directory* 2015-04-07T19:13:46Z Posterdati: #.(namestring (merge-pathnames "Development/Mezzano/" (user-homedir-pathname))) 2015-04-07T19:13:46Z Posterdati: "A string containing the full path to the source tree on the host where the file server is running.") 2015-04-07T19:14:14Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-07T19:14:21Z froggey: maybe rerun make install-dependencies and see if the files show up 2015-04-07T19:14:24Z Posterdati: libraries should come fromm quicklisp directory? 2015-04-07T19:14:59Z Posterdati: creating /home/angel/Development/Mezzano/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf 2015-04-07T19:15:18Z froggey: no. you should have a directory set up (called the home directory, but not related to you real home directory) containing the fonts, desktop picture and libraries 2015-04-07T19:15:39Z Posterdati: then ~/Development/Mezxzano 2015-04-07T19:15:42Z Posterdati: then ~/Development/Mezzano 2015-04-07T19:15:45Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:15:48Z froggey: I think so 2015-04-07T19:15:55Z froggey: did it download the libraries? 2015-04-07T19:16:13Z madalu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T19:16:14Z Posterdati: in ~/Development/Mezzano 2015-04-07T19:16:14Z hjs quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-07T19:16:16Z Posterdati: ? 2015-04-07T19:16:18Z froggey: yes 2015-04-07T19:16:27Z Posterdati: llf? 2015-04-07T19:16:34Z froggey: no, the source code 2015-04-07T19:16:49Z Posterdati: which are? 2015-04-07T19:18:09Z froggey: I'm a bit confused now. in ~/Development/Mezzano you should have the source code to all the required libraries and asdf. these should be in subfolders like asdf/, trivial-features/, etc 2015-04-07T19:18:31Z Posterdati: no asdf nor asdf/ 2015-04-07T19:19:12Z froggey: did install-dependencies print anything like "cloning asdf"? 2015-04-07T19:19:19Z Posterdati: no 2015-04-07T19:19:39Z Posterdati: creating /home/angel/Development/Mezzano/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf 2015-04-07T19:19:43Z froggey: just that? 2015-04-07T19:19:47Z Posterdati: done 2015-04-07T19:19:51Z froggey: odd 2015-04-07T19:19:53Z Posterdati: and the sbcl banner 2015-04-07T19:20:03Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-07T19:20:09Z Posterdati: sbcl --no-userinit --load install-dependencies.lisp --eval '(sb-ext:quit)' 2015-04-07T19:20:22Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:20:25Z froggey: I think you'll need to download everything by hand. there's a list of repos in install-dependencies.lisp that you need 2015-04-07T19:20:58Z Posterdati: #-(and) (uiop:with-current-directory (*file-server-home-directory*) 2015-04-07T19:20:59Z Posterdati: ,,, 2015-04-07T19:21:02Z Posterdati: there? 2015-04-07T19:21:06Z froggey: yes 2015-04-07T19:21:14Z froggey: I guess that could be the problem :) 2015-04-07T19:21:22Z Wojciech_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-07T19:21:34Z Posterdati: why #-(and) 2015-04-07T19:21:46Z dstatyvka joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:21:48Z froggey: I don't know. I can't see it in the patch 2015-04-07T19:23:21Z jackdaniel: jasom: if you are in hacky mood, you can hardcode compiler on src/cmp/cmpdefs.lsp 2015-04-07T19:23:53Z Posterdati: froggey: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146841#1 2015-04-07T19:24:56Z froggey: that looks like it has everything. try removing the #-(and) and rerunning make install-dependencies 2015-04-07T19:25:25Z Posterdati: debugger invoked on a UIOP/RUN-PROGRAM:SUBPROCESS-ERROR in thread 2015-04-07T19:25:26Z Posterdati: #: 2015-04-07T19:25:26Z Posterdati: Subprocess (:PROCESS #) run with command ("git" 2015-04-07T19:25:26Z Posterdati: "clone" 2015-04-07T19:25:26Z Posterdati: "git@github.com:froggey/trivial-features.git") exited with error code 128 2015-04-07T19:25:40Z eigenlicht quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2) 2015-04-07T19:26:27Z Denommus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T19:27:00Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:27:01Z froggey: ok, I don't know what's going on there. clone all those repos and unpack the two tar.gz files 2015-04-07T19:27:03Z jackdaniel: jasom: in fact, you may change from withing working lisp, these variables are in package compiler I think 2015-04-07T19:27:17Z jasom: jackdaniel: that would be neat to try 2015-04-07T19:28:21Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:28:25Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:28:56Z Posterdati: Permission denied (publickey). 2015-04-07T19:28:57Z Posterdati: fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly 2015-04-07T19:29:00Z mearnsh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-07T19:29:39Z froggey: try https://github.com/ instead of git@github.com: 2015-04-07T19:30:35Z Posterdati: done 2015-04-07T19:30:37Z stanislav1 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:30:42Z froggey: working? 2015-04-07T19:30:43Z Posterdati: so I will change in the lisp file 2015-04-07T19:30:47Z Posterdati: yes 2015-04-07T19:31:01Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-07T19:31:27Z froggey: in ipl.lisp mezzano.file-system::*home-directory* needs to point at the home directory 2015-04-07T19:31:32Z froggey: I think you had that set up correctly 2015-04-07T19:31:49Z froggey: try running the VM again. you don't need to make a new cold-image 2015-04-07T19:31:51Z shifty joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:31:55Z mearnsh joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:31:59Z Denommus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T19:32:02Z Posterdati: ok, tx 2015-04-07T19:32:07Z Posterdati: brb 2015-04-07T19:32:19Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:32:44Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-07T19:39:06Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:41:55Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-07T19:43:37Z dfinninger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T19:44:39Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:45:05Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-07T19:45:41Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-07T19:48:20Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-07T19:49:24Z vlnx quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-07T19:53:19Z zacharias quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-07T19:53:30Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:53:36Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:53:36Z antgreen joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:54:17Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-07T19:56:07Z Denommus` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T19:56:32Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:56:35Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:57:13Z dfinninger joined #lisp 2015-04-07T19:59:22Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-07T20:01:33Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-04-07T20:03:22Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-07T20:03:32Z honkfest1val is now known as honkfestival 2015-04-07T20:04:19Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T20:04:56Z alusion joined #lisp 2015-04-07T20:05:11Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-07T20:05:23Z antgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T20:06:45Z jlongste` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-07T20:09:18Z selat quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-07T20:11:06Z stanislav1 is now known as quasus 2015-04-07T20:14:49Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-07T20:15:48Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T20:20:28Z antgreen joined #lisp 2015-04-07T20:21:27Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-07T20:22:30Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-07T20:23:55Z jlongste` joined #lisp 2015-04-07T20:25:13Z Posterdati: froggey: it is compiling 2015-04-07T20:26:56Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-04-07T20:28:50Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-04-07T20:29:55Z Posterdati: froggey: what is the orange little bar? 2015-04-07T20:30:39Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-07T20:31:24Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-07T20:31:50Z froggey: means that the system needs to read a page in from the disk or zero a page 2015-04-07T20:32:09Z pgomes joined #lisp 2015-04-07T20:32:10Z froggey: is it stuck on, with no other lights flashing? 2015-04-07T20:32:34Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-04-07T20:32:35Z Posterdati: flashing 2015-04-07T20:32:43Z Posterdati: blu = net? 2015-04-07T20:32:47Z froggey: ok. that's fine 2015-04-07T20:33:01Z Posterdati: purple = disk? 2015-04-07T20:33:05Z froggey: blue is general activity. the system is doing something 2015-04-07T20:33:29Z froggey: purple is the GC, green is a disk read and red is a disk write 2015-04-07T20:33:40Z froggey: there's nothing for network yet 2015-04-07T20:33:57Z Posterdati: could be cyan 2015-04-07T20:35:23Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T20:41:26Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-07T20:42:49Z Posterdati: froggey: freezed :( 2015-04-07T20:42:58Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-04-07T20:44:06Z froggey: how did it stop? what lights are on? 2015-04-07T20:44:33Z Posterdati: all dark 2015-04-07T20:44:40Z Posterdati: Command: (:FILE-WRITE-DATE "/home/angel/Development/Mezzano/babel/babel.asd") 2015-04-07T20:45:00Z froggey: what's at the end of the serial log? 2015-04-07T20:45:11Z Posterdati: Ignoring packet from C0A8FE19 #(10 39 156 157 25 253 82 6 0 0 28 220 80 17 34 56 2015-04-07T20:45:11Z Posterdati: 147 38 0 0)) 2015-04-07T20:45:49Z steelbird joined #lisp 2015-04-07T20:46:08Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-07T20:46:20Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-07T20:47:01Z froggey: I'm not sure what happened. close and reopen the VM 2015-04-07T20:47:33Z Posterdati: done 2015-04-07T20:47:35Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-07T20:48:07Z froggey: it won't recompile files that've been compiled, so it should get to that point a bit faster 2015-04-07T20:48:19Z futpib quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-07T20:48:51Z Posterdati: ok 2015-04-07T20:49:25Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-07T20:51:04Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-07T20:51:38Z Guest22314 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-07T20:52:36Z Posterdati: Component #:ALEXANDRIA not found, required by # 2015-04-07T20:53:33Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-07T20:54:17Z Ralt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T20:54:47Z Posterdati: the server isn't responding 2015-04-07T20:55:04Z froggey: did you download alexandria with the other repos? 2015-04-07T20:55:37Z froggey: git://common-lisp.net/projects/alexandria/alexandria.git 2015-04-07T20:56:11Z Posterdati: not working 2015-04-07T20:56:27Z Posterdati: fatal: unable to connect to common-lisp.net: 2015-04-07T20:56:45Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-04-07T20:58:43Z froggey: I'm not sure where else you can get it from 2015-04-07T20:59:19Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-07T20:59:57Z froggey: I think I've found a mirror here: git clone https://github.com/keithj/alexandria.git 2015-04-07T21:00:05Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-07T21:00:40Z Posterdati: ok 2015-04-07T21:01:08Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-04-07T21:02:08Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-07T21:02:25Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-04-07T21:02:43Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-07T21:05:09Z Guest22314 joined #lisp 2015-04-07T21:06:14Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-07T21:07:51Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-07T21:08:31Z pgomes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-07T21:08:36Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-04-07T21:10:02Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-07T21:10:06Z KarlDscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T21:10:25Z Posterdati: froggey: just compiled alexandria 2015-04-07T21:12:04Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T21:12:53Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-07T21:13:16Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-07T21:15:57Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-07T21:17:06Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T21:19:36Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-07T21:19:54Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-04-07T21:20:36Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-07T21:22:46Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-07T21:27:20Z PintoBean joined #lisp 2015-04-07T21:27:30Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-07T21:27:45Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-04-07T21:27:53Z PintoBean quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-07T21:29:06Z dim: so, it's not possible to have an hash-table with one's own hash function IIRC, what would be the next best thing? 2015-04-07T21:29:20Z dim: (not hash function, test function, sorry) 2015-04-07T21:29:27Z ehu: Xach: around? Did you request cl-btree and some other projects to be moved from SF to gitlab.common-lisp.net? (It's fine if you did, just asking, because I've received a mail which indicates you did -- for inclusion in QL?) 2015-04-07T21:29:50Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-07T21:29:52Z Patzy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-07T21:29:59Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-07T21:30:00Z ehu: if this is the case, then is it because it's in Subversion? 2015-04-07T21:31:30Z ehu: (if so, there are probably going to remain Subversion projects on common-lisp.net; isn't that a problem?) 2015-04-07T21:33:10Z gklimowicz quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2015-04-08T02:24:29Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T02:24:48Z slimetree: the mapcar returns fine, and passing the result as a literal to apply works fine as wlel 2015-04-08T02:24:51Z slimetree: well* 2015-04-08T02:25:01Z c6248 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T02:25:23Z Bike: slimetree: do (setf *print-circle* t) first, and don't use nconc on literal data 2015-04-08T02:26:16Z Bike: oh, print-circle doesn't help. well, second clause stands. nconc can alter the quotation in a weird way and get you circular data. 2015-04-08T02:26:52Z Bike: you can use apply #'append instead. 2015-04-08T02:28:02Z slimetree: woah, it worked 2015-04-08T02:28:09Z slimetree: thanks 2015-04-08T02:28:11Z Bike: damn straight 2015-04-08T02:28:19Z slimetree: what's special about nconc? 2015-04-08T02:28:25Z slimetree: it seems to freeze even when i don't use a quote 2015-04-08T02:28:28Z slimetree: http://hastebin.com/ebepetuzer.lisp 2015-04-08T02:28:45Z Bike: nconc alters the lists 2015-04-08T02:28:47Z Bike: try, let's see 2015-04-08T02:29:50Z Bike: (let ((list (list 1 2))) (nconc list list) list) 2015-04-08T02:30:02Z Bike: you will see that list has been altered. 2015-04-08T02:31:23Z Bike: what happens with your nconc is that you're basically doing (apply #'nconc '((1 1 2) (2 1 2) (3 1 2))), except that the (1 2) is the same 1 2 in all three cases. so first it edits it to get (1 1 2 2 1 2), except because they're the same it actually loops back around and you have an infinitely long list, so it can't get to the end to put on the (3 1 2) and it freezes. 2015-04-08T02:32:16Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-08T02:32:39Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-04-08T02:32:45Z Bike: append by contrast just makes a new list every time. so that doesn't happen. 2015-04-08T02:33:31Z Bike: that make any sense? 2015-04-08T02:33:45Z slimetree: woah 2015-04-08T02:33:58Z slimetree: lists can share tails that way? 2015-04-08T02:34:11Z slimetree: cons is the first element and a pointer to the rest right 2015-04-08T02:34:30Z Bike: Yes. 2015-04-08T02:34:42Z slimetree: cool. sweet 2015-04-08T02:34:59Z Bike: If you do (let ((list whatever)) (values (cons 'a whatever) (cons 'b whatever))) you're only making two conses, their cdrs are the very same object. 2015-04-08T02:35:16Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T02:35:29Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-04-08T02:35:40Z Bike: otherwise it'd have to do implicit copying or something. 2015-04-08T02:41:29Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T02:42:04Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-08T02:43:17Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-08T02:43:31Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-08T02:45:35Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T02:45:57Z akkad can see cl-ftp in ql:system-apropos, but ql:quickload could not find it 2015-04-08T02:46:40Z Bike: akkad: (ql:quickload :ftp) 2015-04-08T02:47:29Z akkad: ahh thanks. 2015-04-08T02:48:11Z Bike: # <-- first thing is the system name, the cl-ftp is just the repo 2015-04-08T02:48:41Z akkad: oh I see. thank you. not parsing it properly 2015-04-08T02:50:47Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-08T02:54:37Z akkad: any equivalent to elisp pp? 2015-04-08T02:59:39Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-08T03:00:55Z slimetree: when you write common lisp packages, any way to just export everything? 2015-04-08T03:01:13Z slimetree: i write a lot of small functions/macros/utilities that i want to just throw into the main package 2015-04-08T03:01:42Z slimetree: right now packages are such a pain point that i'm just putting everything in x.lisp and calling (load) :3 2015-04-08T03:02:19Z Bike: not really. even my util files have helper functions i wouldn't want exported, too 2015-04-08T03:10:10Z Xach: akkad: what does pp do? 2015-04-08T03:10:24Z akkad: pretty print. 2015-04-08T03:10:49Z Bike: (setf *print-pretty* t) 2015-04-08T03:11:11Z akkad: bike thanks 2015-04-08T03:11:33Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-04-08T03:12:11Z akkad: clhs.org helps 2015-04-08T03:13:24Z akkad: *print-miser* ahh got it 2015-04-08T03:16:37Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-08T03:17:14Z Xach: akkad: in CL, it's called PPRINT 2015-04-08T03:18:28Z akkad: thanks. 2015-04-08T03:20:24Z akkad: Xach: also thanks for the planet blurb on arrow keys in emacs for paredit 2015-04-08T03:22:40Z cluck` is now known as cluck 2015-04-08T03:25:46Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-04-08T03:29:46Z steelbird joined #lisp 2015-04-08T03:31:02Z Xach: no problem. i feel like it's a hack but i don't know any better, yet 2015-04-08T03:39:22Z pillton: I am surprised CFFI didn't get a mention in "Go-to libraries" 2015-04-08T03:39:41Z akkad: (mapcar 'pprint (split-sequence:SPLIT-SEQUENCE #\Newline (drakma:http-request "http://mirrors.ubuntu.com/mirrors.txt"))) 2015-04-08T03:40:08Z slimetree: xach are you the guy who wrote quicklisp 2015-04-08T03:40:12Z Xach: slimetree: yes 2015-04-08T03:40:34Z slimetree: are you also the guy who argued with paul graham 2015-04-08T03:40:37Z slimetree: i don't know why i remember that 2015-04-08T03:40:43Z Xach: slimetree: not the only one 2015-04-08T03:40:46Z slimetree: hehe 2015-04-08T03:40:49Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-08T03:41:06Z Xach: pillton: i tend to avoid cffi, but not because it's bad, but because adding C libraries into the mix can make stuff more complicated than i like. 2015-04-08T03:41:10Z akkad imagines Xach may have a signed pg book or two 2015-04-08T03:41:31Z Xach: I sold my only pg book in ebay many years ago. 2015-04-08T03:41:37Z akkad: ahh 2015-04-08T03:41:59Z akkad: he's easy to find often on University ave in palo alto. not had a book with me to bug him. :( 2015-04-08T03:42:13Z slimetree: akkad you live there? 2015-04-08T03:42:34Z akkad: I work in PA, I live north of there 2015-04-08T03:42:51Z slimetree: ah i'm jealous 2015-04-08T03:42:53Z akkad: only because clojure job. closest I can get. 2015-04-08T03:42:55Z Xach: I don't like pg or his lisp books. 2015-04-08T03:43:14Z slimetree: lived in pa for a year, had to move back down to san diego 2015-04-08T03:43:19Z pillton: Xach: I try and do the same, but there are some C functions/libraries you can't avoid. 2015-04-08T03:43:20Z slimetree: xach how come? 2015-04-08T03:43:21Z akkad: Oddly Jerry Yang did not know him. 2015-04-08T03:43:23Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T03:43:58Z Xach: pillton: yeah. but maybe that does not make people love cffi enough to directly mention it? or maybe those people just don't email in. 2015-04-08T03:44:21Z Xach: slimetree: many things i like about cl, he dislikes and denigrates. 2015-04-08T03:44:23Z pillton is in the latter category. 2015-04-08T03:45:24Z bgs101 quit (Quit: bgs101) 2015-04-08T03:45:32Z slimetree: hm, what do you think of arc? 2015-04-08T03:45:50Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-08T03:45:58Z slimetree: also i'm a lisp newbie who knows nothing. anything in particular you'd recommend? 2015-04-08T03:46:03Z slimetree: i finished sicp recently 2015-04-08T03:46:27Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-08T03:46:42Z Xach: slimetree: i really like Paradigms of AI Programming and Practical Common Lisp. 2015-04-08T03:46:48Z akkad: Dave Coulier of Lisp 2015-04-08T03:47:02Z Xach: slimetree: i was put off by the title of Paradigms, but it's less about AI than I imagined, and it teaches good CL 2015-04-08T03:48:02Z Bike: the history of AI thing makes for a nice narrative to direct the programming. 2015-04-08T03:49:01Z Xach: yes 2015-04-08T03:49:05Z pillton: Bike: Good point. 2015-04-08T03:49:16Z slimetree: sweet, i'll give them a go 2015-04-08T03:49:20Z beach joined #lisp 2015-04-08T03:49:29Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-04-08T03:49:31Z slimetree: do you guys use lisp in your jobs? 2015-04-08T03:49:32Z Bike: i actually had reason to know about SAINT for reasons pretty unrelated to lisp the other day, very nice 2015-04-08T03:49:37Z Xach: it's more about tools that arose to deal with old AI problems. not about "modern" ai. (his book AI: A Modern Approach covers that) 2015-04-08T03:49:39Z c6248: hello beach! :-) 2015-04-08T03:49:41Z Xach: slimetree: yes 2015-04-08T03:49:51Z slimetree: that's cool, what do you do? 2015-04-08T03:49:54Z slimetree: (if you don't mind me asking) 2015-04-08T03:50:10Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-04-08T03:50:43Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-04-08T03:51:21Z beach: slimetree: I use Common Lisp in my research. 2015-04-08T03:53:24Z Xach: slimetree: I work for Clozure Associates, which does Lisp consulting. 2015-04-08T03:54:43Z slimetree: like the company that made ccl? 2015-04-08T03:54:49Z slimetree: beach what research 2015-04-08T03:54:57Z slimetree: oh shoot nooooooooooo 2015-04-08T03:55:24Z slimetree: i just moved a symlink into my 500 line file and lost all my work 2015-04-08T03:55:31Z slimetree: i have it (load)ed into ccl 2015-04-08T03:55:34Z slimetree: is there any way to retrieve source code 2015-04-08T03:56:00Z slimetree: a;slkfj i'm going to stop being stubborn/lazy after this and just use git 2015-04-08T03:56:23Z Bike: you really should. 2015-04-08T03:56:37Z Bike: the source might be in describe (like, do (describe #'function-name-here)) but might nto be. 2015-04-08T03:57:43Z steelbird quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-08T03:58:15Z beach: I don't understand how moving a symlink can lose the work. 2015-04-08T03:58:46Z Bike: having source.lisp, and then doing mv symlink source.lisp 2015-04-08T03:58:50Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-08T03:59:00Z beach: Oh. Got it. 2015-04-08T03:59:05Z gklimowicz quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-08T03:59:14Z loke: echo Important > ff ; ln -s /tmp/foo link ; mv link ff ; echo BOOM 2015-04-08T03:59:34Z beach: Yeah, I get it. 2015-04-08T03:59:41Z slimetree: ccl should have it in memory right? ...right? 2015-04-08T03:59:47Z loke: slimetree: Perhaps 2015-04-08T04:00:20Z loke: slimetree: Try using function-lambda-expression 2015-04-08T04:00:41Z loke: It's valid for a CL to not implement it, but if it's available it will return the function code 2015-04-08T04:00:48Z Bike: it can compile things and discard the source code, if it wants 2015-04-08T04:01:11Z loke: Wow. I just realised that SBCL now implements it. When did that happen? 2015-04-08T04:01:36Z slimetree: any way to get a list of symbols 2015-04-08T04:01:42Z mbuf quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-08T04:01:42Z loke: slimetree: yes 2015-04-08T04:01:45Z Bike: A list of symbols in what? 2015-04-08T04:01:52Z Bike: loke: f-l-e? didn't it always? 2015-04-08T04:01:52Z slimetree: or i could just go through the pain of rewriting and use this to teach me the importance of git 2015-04-08T04:02:14Z dto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T04:02:26Z loke: (loop for sym being each symbol in (find-package "PACKAGE-NAME") collect sym) 2015-04-08T04:02:27Z slimetree: Bike: a list of functions and macros in my loaded file, so i can call function-lambda-expression 2015-04-08T04:02:37Z loke: Bike: I thought SBCL never did 2015-04-08T04:02:42Z Bike: as loke said 2015-04-08T04:02:45Z slimetree: oh yeah. uh, so i didn't use packages either 2015-04-08T04:02:56Z slimetree: so everything's in cl or cl-user or whatever the default is 2015-04-08T04:02:57Z loke: Bike: But it did for a small test function I just wrote on the REPL. It didn't for other functions I had loaded from files though. 2015-04-08T04:02:58Z Bike: "well, have fun rewriting then" 2015-04-08T04:03:06Z slimetree: ok i'm an idiot 2015-04-08T04:03:09Z Bike: loke: yeah, it's something to do with optimization settings i think. 2015-04-08T04:03:35Z Bike: makes more sense to keep repl source forms, anyway, since ones in a file are presumably... in a file. 2015-04-08T04:03:55Z Bike: present company excepted. 2015-04-08T04:09:11Z ajtulloc_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T04:11:21Z c6248 is now known as pnpuff 2015-04-08T04:11:25Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T04:11:34Z pnpuff quit (Changing host) 2015-04-08T04:11:34Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2015-04-08T04:11:34Z pnpuff quit (Changing host) 2015-04-08T04:11:34Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2015-04-08T04:12:15Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-08T04:13:22Z idem-pyon-tent is now known as gaignent 2015-04-08T04:14:22Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-08T04:16:28Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T04:17:10Z ajtulloch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T04:17:44Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-04-08T04:17:49Z clop joined #lisp 2015-04-08T04:18:33Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-08T04:21:24Z SpamArtist joined #lisp 2015-04-08T04:21:27Z SpamArtist quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-08T04:21:34Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-08T04:21:40Z pillton: Does anyone here use Travis CI? 2015-04-08T04:21:47Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-04-08T04:21:57Z pnpuff left #lisp 2015-04-08T04:22:01Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-08T04:23:37Z arrubin quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2015-04-08T05:44:08Z brucem: beach: https://github.com/Z3Prover/z3 2015-04-08T05:44:17Z brucem: beach: MS put their solver under the MIT license. 2015-04-08T05:44:33Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T05:44:35Z beach: I see. 2015-04-08T05:44:44Z beach: Bike: I think one can safely ignore SATISFIES for the purpose of type inference. 2015-04-08T05:44:46Z Bike: oh, i suppose it's not just satisfies. 2015-04-08T05:44:50Z brucem: http://z3.codeplex.com/ has more useful info though, I guess. 2015-04-08T05:45:21Z Bike: you just need types you can't reduce under conjunction or disjunction, like, uh, array types for conjunction... 2015-04-08T05:45:29Z Bike: er, disjunction. 2015-04-08T05:45:55Z pillton: beach: It is important that SATISFIES with the same name is handled correctly. 2015-04-08T05:46:35Z beach: pillton: Can you explain please? 2015-04-08T05:47:49Z pillton: Bike's example (subtypep (satisfies foo) (satisfies foo)) can be evaluated without evaluating the function FOO. 2015-04-08T05:48:07Z beach: Right, but why is it important? 2015-04-08T05:48:30Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-08T05:48:38Z mrSpec quit (Changing host) 2015-04-08T05:48:38Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-08T05:48:43Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-08T05:48:43Z pillton: Because it is the only way to introduce new primitive compound types. 2015-04-08T05:50:25Z pillton: Consider trying to implement a new object that satisfies (MY-ARRAY T (32 32)) without using common lisp arrays. 2015-04-08T05:50:51Z beach: OK. 2015-04-08T05:50:53Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-08T05:51:02Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-08T05:51:22Z pillton: The only way to do it is using SATISFIES. 2015-04-08T05:51:33Z beach: Yes, I understand. 2015-04-08T05:52:25Z beach: I am thinking of type inference here. So you would introduce new primitive operations that can only be done on this type, and you want the type inferencer to recognize them correctly? 2015-04-08T05:52:46Z pyon quit (Quit: My morality has evaporated under the harsh UV light.) 2015-04-08T05:52:53Z Longlius quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T05:53:05Z beach: Maybe using multimedia instructions or something like that. 2015-04-08T05:54:50Z pillton: Multimedia instructions? 2015-04-08T05:54:59Z beach: MMX and stuff like that. 2015-04-08T05:56:39Z pillton: Ok. Inference is important. I agree. I was just voicing my opinion that shouldn't be hidden under a rug. 2015-04-08T05:56:55Z pillton: that SATISFIES shouldn't... sorry. 2015-04-08T05:57:01Z beach: OK. 2015-04-08T05:57:40Z pillton: Some implementations get Bike's example wrong too. 2015-04-08T05:57:46Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-08T05:58:22Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-08T05:58:54Z Bike: (subtypep t '(or (and a b) (and (not a) b) (and a (not b)) (and (not a) (not b)))) => NIL NIL, how dull! 2015-04-08T06:00:31Z beach: What implementation? 2015-04-08T06:00:34Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-08T06:01:18Z SpamArtist joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:01:24Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-08T06:01:32Z Bike: sbcl, i don't imagine it returns T anywhere though 2015-04-08T06:01:38Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:01:39Z Bike: (a being (satisfies a), etc., but that's annoying to write out) 2015-04-08T06:01:47Z SpamArtist left #lisp 2015-04-08T06:02:45Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:03:11Z f3lp_ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:03:11Z f3lp_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-08T06:03:20Z pillton: Does it matter if A is a defined type? 2015-04-08T06:04:22Z Bike: well, if it's not a satisfies you can reduce it simply sometimes. like (and (not cons) integer) is just integer. 2015-04-08T06:05:17Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:05:58Z pillton: (subtypep 'a '(and a (not a))) is NIL,NIL on SBCL. 2015-04-08T06:06:07Z pillton: NIL,T when using integers. 2015-04-08T06:06:29Z Bike: that's the only correct answer, though. since (and a (not a)) is nil, and a could be nil, or it could be something else. 2015-04-08T06:07:44Z Bike: the point of my example was that an implementation could hypothetically return T T regardless of what a and b are, they could even be unknown. 2015-04-08T06:07:46Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-08T06:08:39Z beach: I must be missing something. Is it OK if a and b are not defined? 2015-04-08T06:08:47Z beach: SBCL is not complaining. 2015-04-08T06:08:59Z Bike: i don't remember how unknown types are supposed to work. 's not really my point. 2015-04-08T06:09:07Z beach: Sure. 2015-04-08T06:09:14Z Bike: for my example you can just do (deftype a () '(satisfies a)) 2015-04-08T06:09:25Z beach: SBCL returns NIL, NIL even when A and B are classes. 2015-04-08T06:10:45Z zhsso joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:11:22Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-08T06:11:27Z Bike: heh, (subtypep '(and (or a b) (or a (not b)) (or (not a) b) (or (not a) (not b))) nil) => T T 2015-04-08T06:11:30Z pjb: pillton: A is not a type. 2015-04-08T06:11:53Z pjb: Ok, sorry I read typep instead of subtypep. 2015-04-08T06:12:22Z pillton: Bike: Ok. Hmmm. 2015-04-08T06:12:58Z Bike: glad i took logic 201 for this. 2015-04-08T06:13:01Z pillton: NIL seems to do too much. 2015-04-08T06:13:26Z Bike: Huh? 2015-04-08T06:14:46Z pillton: (subtypep nil 'a) is T for all A since NIL is a subtype of everything. 2015-04-08T06:14:55Z Bike: Yes? 2015-04-08T06:15:22Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-08T06:15:34Z pillton: And NIL is used to denote the empty set. 2015-04-08T06:16:13Z Bike: which is why it's a subtype (subset) of all types (sets). 2015-04-08T06:16:59Z Posterdati: froggey: hi 2015-04-08T06:17:09Z Posterdati: froggey: #Fonts>DejaVuSans.ttf" does not exist.> 2015-04-08T06:17:36Z Posterdati: froggey: the file exists 2015-04-08T06:17:37Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:17:37Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-04-08T06:17:37Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:17:56Z SAL9000: Posterdati: are you sure your path separator should be ">" ? 2015-04-08T06:18:13Z Posterdati: SAL9000: it is wrong 2015-04-08T06:18:39Z pillton: Bike: Oh. I see my mistake. 2015-04-08T06:18:52Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-08T06:19:22Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:19:50Z Bike: sbcl seems to properly reduce obvious cnf types to nil but doesn't try for disjunctive forms. neat, useless, neat 2015-04-08T06:20:21Z pjb: beach: I don't feel that it's ok if there's no type definition for a symbol, for it to be used in as a type. 2015-04-08T06:20:33Z pjb: beach: but indeed, sbcl considers all symbols to be naming some type. 2015-04-08T06:20:58Z Bike: it treats them as a special "unknown type" i think. 2015-04-08T06:21:01Z Bike: typep errors of course. 2015-04-08T06:21:15Z alpha- joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:22:11Z Bike: i don't know any nontrivial unsatisfiable formulas :( 2015-04-08T06:22:57Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:23:04Z pranavrc quit 2015-04-08T06:23:29Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:23:29Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-04-08T06:23:29Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:23:37Z Bike: haha what the heck, if you negate the disjunction it does realize it's nil. 2015-04-08T06:24:55Z pjb: In anycase, I don't see that CLHS limits the type inferencing that can be implemented: an implementation can be as smart as it wants about it. 2015-04-08T06:25:02Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-04-08T06:26:00Z Bike: 'course. i just think it's funny to see if subtypep is np-complete. 2015-04-08T06:27:26Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:27:54Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:28:50Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-08T06:29:35Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:30:33Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-08T06:30:35Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:33:42Z zacts: lo 2015-04-08T06:33:44Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T06:33:47Z Bike: when i said first-order logic up there i meant propositional. my mistake. 2015-04-08T06:36:17Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:36:35Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:36:35Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-04-08T06:36:35Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:37:03Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T06:39:10Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:40:20Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-08T06:40:29Z easye joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:41:37Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:45:35Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:47:22Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:48:30Z beach left #lisp 2015-04-08T06:50:02Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:54:33Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-08T06:56:47Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-08T06:57:09Z selat quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-08T06:57:53Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:00:04Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:00:06Z slimetree quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-08T07:00:57Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-04-08T07:01:13Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:01:16Z zhsso quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T07:03:30Z selat quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-08T07:04:35Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:05:06Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:07:31Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:13:44Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:16:12Z zacharias_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-08T07:16:33Z ajtulloch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T07:17:00Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:17:07Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-08T07:19:20Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:28:12Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:28:33Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:30:45Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-08T07:31:26Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:32:19Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T07:33:04Z arshuni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T07:34:52Z mishoo quit (Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)) 2015-04-08T07:35:10Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:35:44Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:36:25Z Phagus joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:36:26Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-08T07:36:42Z Phagus: Can someone give me an example of using the documentation function? 2015-04-08T07:36:46Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:37:20Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-08T07:39:01Z Bike: (documentation 'documentation 'function) 2015-04-08T07:39:52Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-08T07:40:30Z Cymew: (documentation 'floor 'function) -> "Return the greatest integer not greater than number 2015-04-08T07:40:34Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-04-08T07:40:35Z Cymew: for example 2015-04-08T07:41:22Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:42:03Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T07:42:28Z Phagus: Bike: It's funny you wrote that, because that was the first thing I tried.. Unfortuantely it returned NIL. 2015-04-08T07:42:46Z Shinmera: Then there isn't any documentation set for it. 2015-04-08T07:42:48Z Bike: it does that sometimes. 2015-04-08T07:43:06Z Shinmera: (defun foo () "Hi.") (documentation 'foo 'function) 2015-04-08T07:43:09Z burtons quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T07:43:11Z Cymew: My example works for SBCL, I might add 2015-04-08T07:43:11Z Bike: (documentation (lambda () "documentation!!" nil) 'function) 2015-04-08T07:43:29Z Shinmera: Actually my example is wrong 2015-04-08T07:43:47Z Shinmera: (defun foo () "hi." NIL) should work 2015-04-08T07:43:52Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:44:41Z Cymew: In a perfect world, everything you needed to know would be in the documentation. Our world, sadly, is broken. 2015-04-08T07:45:19Z Shinmera: The description of DOCUMENTATION /is/ in the clhs though, which is quite exhaustive about what you can do with it. 2015-04-08T07:45:22Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T07:47:19Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:48:18Z Cymew: That question actually reminded me to write some doc strings for the latest code I comitted... 2015-04-08T07:48:37Z Cymew: Thanks for the reminder! ;) 2015-04-08T07:49:55Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-08T07:49:56Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:51:40Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-08T07:51:48Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:55:34Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:56:12Z brucem quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-08T07:57:18Z brucem joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:58:54Z brucem quit (Changing host) 2015-04-08T07:58:54Z brucem joined #lisp 2015-04-08T07:59:51Z arenz joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:00:12Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:01:27Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:02:44Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T08:03:07Z zadock quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-08T08:05:38Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-04-08T08:06:25Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:07:30Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:11:56Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:12:39Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:12:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-04-08T08:12:39Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:13:57Z vap1 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:15:46Z gko__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-08T08:15:51Z lritter_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-08T08:16:00Z c74d is now known as Guest42134 2015-04-08T08:16:54Z Guest42134 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-08T08:17:27Z gko__ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:17:42Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:17:50Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:20:06Z c74d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T08:22:12Z arbscht quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-08T08:23:32Z arbscht joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:23:53Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:24:21Z jewel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:25:16Z jewel_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-08T08:27:40Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-08T08:29:31Z vr-rm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-08T08:30:50Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:31:04Z francogrex: I am intrigued by format ~T directive 2015-04-08T08:31:24Z francogrex: how cam it is not the same as (format t "~a" #\tab) ? 2015-04-08T08:31:38Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T08:32:58Z Shinmera: clhs ~T 2015-04-08T08:32:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cfa.htm 2015-04-08T08:33:05Z francogrex: (format t "~a~a~a" 1 #\tab 2) and (format t "~a~t~a" 1 2) 2015-04-08T08:33:08Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-08T08:33:09Z Shinmera: It doesn't emit a tab character at all. 2015-04-08T08:33:41Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:34:44Z francogrex: ok I was confused by it being called 'tab' in http://psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/chapter24.html 2015-04-08T08:35:03Z Shinmera: It does tabulation. 2015-04-08T08:35:54Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:39:01Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:42:14Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:42:21Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-08T08:43:16Z madnificent joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:45:03Z larion joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:45:16Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:46:37Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-08T08:47:02Z ndrei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T08:47:05Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-08T08:48:44Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:51:41Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T08:53:33Z Pastaf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-08T08:54:45Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:58:07Z xan_ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T08:59:17Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:00:43Z d4ryus_ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:02:19Z loke: Shinmera: of course 2015-04-08T09:02:34Z loke: you'd need to use (format t "~c" #\tab) to get a tab outputted 2015-04-08T09:02:52Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T09:03:54Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-08T09:06:49Z pjb: francogrex: ~T COULD emit a TAB. That would depend on the TERMINAL. 2015-04-08T09:07:02Z pjb: TAB is a TERMINAL CONTROL CODE, not a character to be written to files. 2015-04-08T09:07:36Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:09:24Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:10:07Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:11:38Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T09:11:56Z xan_ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-08T09:12:01Z Posterdati: pjb: usage of control code characters should be always taken in account especially when dealing with txt files travelling different OSes 2015-04-08T09:12:17Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:13:18Z pjb: Posterdati: text files travelling thru different OSes by way of protocols such as FTP, that transfers lines of characters. 2015-04-08T09:13:32Z pjb: Posterdati: study the difference in FTP between ascii and binary transfers. 2015-04-08T09:16:15Z Posterdati: I'm not talking about network transfers, for example files on usb pen drives 2015-04-08T09:16:31Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T09:18:39Z pjb: My point is that FTP is a protocol that takes care to deal with the higher level notion of text file, and that explicitely transfers lines of characters, so that source and destination files may contain the same text, even if the codes and formatting used to store them changes. 2015-04-08T09:18:43Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T09:19:13Z pjb: When you are accessing foreign files from external storage, then you have to deal with binary files. 2015-04-08T09:19:21Z Posterdati: sure 2015-04-08T09:19:57Z pjb: Having binary files that contain TAB control codes, is the same as dealing with PCL files. 2015-04-08T09:19:58Z pjb: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer_Command_Language 2015-04-08T09:19:59Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:20:57Z Posterdati: is PCL still proprietary? 2015-04-08T09:23:25Z ajtulloc_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-08T09:25:23Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:25:28Z zacts: I just made my first little maze game with lisp 2015-04-08T09:25:31Z zacts: \o/ 2015-04-08T09:25:33Z zacts: I'm so excited 2015-04-08T09:25:41Z Posterdati: nice 2015-04-08T09:26:04Z Posterdati: so join #lisp-games 2015-04-08T09:26:15Z pjb: It's #lispgames 2015-04-08T09:27:25Z zacts: ah ok thanks 2015-04-08T09:27:56Z Posterdati: yes, sorry 2015-04-08T09:28:27Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-08T09:30:53Z resttime_ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:32:03Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:32:37Z Niac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T09:33:12Z netroby quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-08T09:33:52Z resttime quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-08T09:36:35Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-08T09:38:49Z johnchalekson quit (Quit: #DIGITALAIDS https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/article/20141208120947-185994207-freenode-net-using-mirc-to-keep-up-with-popular-programming-trends facebook.com/realjohnchalekson) 2015-04-08T09:39:45Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:39:45Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:39:46Z johnchalekson quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-08T09:40:06Z loke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T09:40:34Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:40:36Z johnchalekson quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-08T09:41:09Z francogrex: pjb i don't understand how could it depend on terminal. If I do the output to a plain text file ~t does not output a tab at all. Neitheir does it do in shell, or emacs.... 2015-04-08T09:41:11Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:41:13Z johnchalekson quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-08T09:41:34Z resttime_ quit (Quit: resttime_) 2015-04-08T09:41:42Z pjb: What happens when you output a #\Tab depends entirely on the terminal. 2015-04-08T09:42:00Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:42:01Z johnchalekson quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-08T09:42:04Z francogrex: it's format to a file 2015-04-08T09:42:10Z pjb: ~T is specified independently of the terminal, in terms of "columns" ie. of number of characters since the beginning of the line. 2015-04-08T09:42:12Z pjb: Nope. 2015-04-08T09:42:22Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-08T09:42:29Z Posterdati: froggey: got problems with fonts :( check font.lisp, or it better that I clone your repository 2015-04-08T09:42:42Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T09:43:05Z Posterdati: francogrex: it depends on how such programs interpret ~T 2015-04-08T09:43:16Z francogrex: do you have an example where ~t and #\tab would output the same? 2015-04-08T09:43:18Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:43:21Z johnchalekson quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-08T09:43:25Z pjb: If the output device is a terminal that handles ASCII TAB control codes, then ~T might eventually translate into a sequence containing such control codes. Or some other sequence such as eg. CHT, or HPR. 2015-04-08T09:44:16Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:44:18Z johnchalekson quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-08T09:44:35Z pjb: francogrex: it would depend on the terminal. If you have a terminal that has 8-space tabulations, then (format t "~%~THi~%") might produce CR LF TAB H i CR LF be sent to the terminal. 2015-04-08T09:44:51Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:45:00Z pjb: But it will have newline space space space space space space space space H i newline written in a file. 2015-04-08T09:45:02Z francogrex: hmm and how does one know in advance? for example (with-open-file (stream "plaintext" :direction :output) (format stream "~a~t~a~%" 1 2)) 2015-04-08T09:45:04Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:45:06Z johnchalekson quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-08T09:45:16Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:45:27Z pjb: exactly! That's why ~T doesn't usually produce TAB control codes, but writes instead spaces! 2015-04-08T09:45:46Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:45:48Z johnchalekson quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-08T09:45:56Z pjb: Oh, but CL streams count the characters written in lines to know how much spaces to write. 2015-04-08T09:46:03Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T09:46:22Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:46:23Z johnchalekson quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-08T09:47:02Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:48:04Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:48:04Z francogrex: ok right, it's spaces indeed 2015-04-08T09:48:21Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-08T09:48:33Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-08T09:48:39Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:48:46Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-08T09:49:28Z zacts: Posterdati: ah it's cool, I didn't realize there was even a #lispgames channel 2015-04-08T09:50:40Z Posterdati: :) 2015-04-08T09:51:01Z 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2015-04-08T12:03:17Z pjb: So you're a complex protocol process. 2015-04-08T12:04:08Z ElectricCoffee_: what? 2015-04-08T12:04:31Z pjb: That. 2015-04-08T12:04:44Z pjb: (We still don't know what you want). 2015-04-08T12:04:50Z ElectricCoffee_: (ah) 2015-04-08T12:06:41Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T12:07:38Z ElectricCoffee_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-08T12:07:56Z manuel__ left #lisp 2015-04-08T12:12:13Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T12:13:52Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-08T12:14:58Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T12:18:23Z alexherbo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-08T12:20:32Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-04-08T12:23:09Z ehu: lol 2015-04-08T12:23:47Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-08T12:25:02Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-08T12:28:41Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-08T12:30:45Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-08T12:33:52Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-08T12:34:31Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2015-04-08T12:38:22Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-08T12:38:24Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-08T12:38:59Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T12:39:50Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-08T12:41:12Z thodg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T12:41:54Z alesguzik joined #lisp 2015-04-08T12:42:26Z Xach: ehu: I didn't request anything for cl-btree 2015-04-08T12:42:36Z ehu: oh. ok. 2015-04-08T12:42:36Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2015-04-08T12:42:46Z ehu: Xach: do you include it currently? 2015-04-08T12:43:06Z ehu: the guy asked me (how) to migrate to gitlab for the purpose of Quicklisp 2015-04-08T12:43:13Z ehu: assuming that's you, 2015-04-08T12:43:38Z Xach: ehu: yes, i include it 2015-04-08T12:43:52Z Xach: ehu: and i wrote a while back about how sourceforge is one of my least-favorite hosting options 2015-04-08T12:44:03Z ehu: ok. 2015-04-08T12:44:09Z Xach: i didn't single out any projects 2015-04-08T12:44:13Z ehu: for the purpose of inclusion? or for yourself? 2015-04-08T12:44:24Z dim: so, I would like to have a data structure with O(1) lookup (because I'm going to have to do lots of them) and with complex lookup rules, what's the advice? 2015-04-08T12:44:35Z Xach: ehu: for quicklisp. it's annoying. not insurmountable, just annoying. 2015-04-08T12:44:57Z Xach: dim: what kind of complex lookup rule 2015-04-08T12:45:07Z ehu: ok. well, I welcome him wanting to migrate, but I didn't have any experience moving Subversion to git yet, so it took quite a while. 2015-04-08T12:45:15Z Xach: ah 2015-04-08T12:45:20Z ehu: and that got me wondering what problems there may have been. 2015-04-08T12:45:43Z ehu: And if there are problems with it being Subversion, then maybe these problems exist with common-lisp.net too? 2015-04-08T12:45:44Z dim: we're talking function signature lookups, with polymorphism support and possibly missing data types for some arguments 2015-04-08T12:46:14Z Xach: ehu: i don't fetch cl-btree from subversion, i fetch a download, which means i have to figure out a mirror link, and navigate their ad page 2015-04-08T12:46:18Z dim: I'm on a call site, and I want to know if I need to change the way a function is called when compile it to another dialect of the PL/SQL language 2015-04-08T12:46:22Z Xach: not every time, just the first time, but it's still annoying 2015-04-08T12:46:34Z dim: so I need to find the definition of the function from the way it's called 2015-04-08T12:46:42Z ehu: Xach: ok. thanks fro the clarification. 2015-04-08T12:46:44Z ehu: for 2015-04-08T12:46:51Z pjb: dim: M-. 2015-04-08T12:46:52Z dim: which means resolving data-types from the call-site, which is sometimes quite complex or require data I don't have 2015-04-08T12:47:08Z dim: pjb: it's not lisp code, it's PL/SQL code from Oracle that I rewrite to PLpgSQL code for PostgreSQL 2015-04-08T12:47:16Z pjb: ok 2015-04-08T12:47:21Z dim: pjb: but that's the spirit yes 2015-04-08T12:47:33Z dim: ideally I would have a hash on the function signature 2015-04-08T12:47:56Z dim: and a gethash compatible way to find the function from its maybe incomplete signature 2015-04-08T12:48:30Z dim: now that I say it out loud, I could do N lookups with N replacements for the unknown data types, it would be an heuristic, maybe good enough 2015-04-08T12:48:40Z dim: once more, explaining the problem out loud gives solutions ;-) 2015-04-08T12:48:56Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-08T12:49:00Z dim: any other advice of data structure for partial matching? 2015-04-08T12:49:24Z gklimowicz quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-04-08T12:50:36Z pjb: dim: you can always use the lisp monad, I mean, the append method modifier, to gather several possible results, when you have ambiguous criteria. 2015-04-08T12:50:59Z dim: the append method modifier? 2015-04-08T12:51:09Z pjb: Yes. 2015-04-08T12:51:19Z dim: any pointer to a fine manual about that? 2015-04-08T12:52:57Z pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146887 2015-04-08T12:53:11Z pjb: I mean, method-combination. 2015-04-08T12:53:43Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T12:54:22Z pjb: aka CL monads. 2015-04-08T12:54:59Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-08T12:55:08Z jewel__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-08T12:55:18Z ehu: pjb: never thought of method-combinations as a way to address ambiguity. I like the idea. 2015-04-08T12:55:56Z johnchalekson quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T12:56:04Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T12:56:28Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-04-08T12:56:52Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T12:56:52Z johnchalekson quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-08T12:58:54Z alesguzik quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-08T12:59:30Z vap1 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-08T13:01:10Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:01:10Z johnchalekson quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-08T13:02:06Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:02:09Z johnchalekson quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-08T13:02:53Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:03:03Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:03:04Z johnchalekson quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-08T13:03:55Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:04:12Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:04:13Z johnchalekson quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-08T13:05:09Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:05:12Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:05:12Z johnchalekson quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-08T13:07:02Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-08T13:07:18Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-08T13:07:56Z dim: pjb: looks nice, thanks, will consider 2015-04-08T13:08:29Z dim: I'm not sure I want to generate as much lisp methods as I parse PL/SQL functions, tho 2015-04-08T13:08:46Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:08:48Z johnchalekson quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-08T13:09:29Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-04-08T13:09:39Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:09:42Z johnchalekson quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-08T13:10:40Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:10:43Z johnchalekson quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-08T13:11:40Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:11:42Z johnchalekson quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-08T13:11:51Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-08T13:12:44Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:12:46Z johnchalekson quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-08T13:13:00Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:13:28Z johnchalekson joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:17:04Z pranavrc quit 2015-04-08T13:17:29Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:18:57Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:20:59Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:21:34Z dennis_ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:21:57Z dennis_: guys 2015-04-08T13:22:04Z dennis_: i'm having a problem with trivial-irc 2015-04-08T13:22:12Z dennis_: it doesn't seem to support unicode 2015-04-08T13:22:19Z pjb: that seems to be a problem. 2015-04-08T13:22:24Z dennis_: anybody had/fixed this bug? 2015-04-08T13:22:31Z pjb: On the other hand, irc is rather transparent to the encoding. 2015-04-08T13:22:44Z dennis_: I mean 2015-04-08T13:22:59Z dennis_: the moment my bot reads a unicode character 2015-04-08T13:23:01Z dennis_: it dies 2015-04-08T13:23:18Z dennis_: suggestions? 2015-04-08T13:23:38Z pjb: dennis_: one Q&D way to solve would be to specify the encoding used on the socket to be a 1-1 encoding (eg. iso-8859-1). 2015-04-08T13:23:43Z xinau joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:23:53Z pjb: dennis_: the correct way to solve it is to realize that the payload should be binary, not text. 2015-04-08T13:23:53Z dennis_: alright 2015-04-08T13:23:54Z alesguzik joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:23:57Z dennis_: ill try that 2015-04-08T13:23:59Z dennis_: thx 2015-04-08T13:24:01Z dennis_ left #lisp 2015-04-08T13:24:44Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:24:50Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-08T13:25:34Z devll joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:29:51Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-08T13:31:23Z thodg joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:32:16Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:34:01Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:35:08Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:38:04Z gklimowicz joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:39:15Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T13:40:55Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:41:56Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-08T13:54:04Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T13:55:04Z netroby quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T14:00:16Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-08T14:04:28Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-08T14:04:38Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T14:04:59Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-08T14:08:14Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-08T14:08:18Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-08T14:08:53Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-08T14:08:57Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-08T14:11:22Z JJJJJJJJJJ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T14:13:38Z dkcl: Is it inefficient to make heavy use of ETYPECASE? 2015-04-08T14:13:48Z dkcl: Performance-wise 2015-04-08T14:14:17Z fe[nl]ix_: shouldn't be 2015-04-08T14:14:28Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-08T14:14:43Z Shinmera: Depends on your types, really. 2015-04-08T14:14:58Z JJaskologist quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T14:15:25Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-04-08T14:15:54Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-04-08T14:15:54Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-04-08T14:15:55Z fe[nl]ix_: dkcl: it depends on your performance constraints, but the answer is most likely "no" 2015-04-08T14:16:05Z dkcl: Mostly strings, integers, custom types, and vectors/lists 2015-04-08T14:16:13Z dkcl: Nothing fancy 2015-04-08T14:16:15Z pjb: dkcl: if you don't have satisfies type, then it should be about O(1). 2015-04-08T14:16:26Z arbscht quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-08T14:16:29Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T14:16:48Z dkcl: Thanks 2015-04-08T14:17:17Z bobbysmith007 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T14:18:26Z devll quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-08T14:19:19Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-08T14:22:36Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T14:27:10Z a2015_ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T14:35:59Z kvsari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T14:40:13Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-08T14:41:18Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-08T14:44:44Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-04-08T14:44:54Z vr-rm joined #lisp 2015-04-08T14:47:40Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T14:48:01Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-08T14:50:39Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T14:51:29Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T14:52:57Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2015-04-08T14:54:29Z slimetree joined #lisp 2015-04-08T14:57:52Z beach joined #lisp 2015-04-08T14:58:00Z beach: Good afternoon everyone! 2015-04-08T14:58:18Z Shinmera: Hello beach. 2015-04-08T14:58:53Z fe[nl]ix_: hi beach 2015-04-08T14:59:29Z Shinmera: beach: Regarding your system issue of loading a different packages file: If I understand correctly your situation means that you can't have the 'regular' system and the 'test' system active at the same time, right? 2015-04-08T14:59:46Z beach: Shinmera: Right. And that's fine. 2015-04-08T14:59:53Z Shinmera: Then why not just use features? 2015-04-08T15:00:05Z beach: How would I use them? 2015-04-08T15:00:18Z Shinmera: #-:testing-my-lib (:file "foo") #+:testing-my-lib (:file "footest") 2015-04-08T15:00:30Z Shinmera: and then just push the feature prior to loading if you want to test or not. 2015-04-08T15:00:34Z beach: I see. 2015-04-08T15:01:19Z beach: Well, one criterion was that I wanted the non-test system to look "natural". The question, then, is how much test information is allowed in that system while keeping it "natural" looking. 2015-04-08T15:01:36Z dfinninger joined #lisp 2015-04-08T15:01:54Z Shinmera: I'm not sure what you mean by "natural", but feature tests are certainly no alien aspect to lisp code. 2015-04-08T15:02:11Z beach: Sure. 2015-04-08T15:02:59Z beach: I have no a priori set of rules for when it looks "natural", and I may have to lower my standards a bit. 2015-04-08T15:03:54Z Shinmera: I know too little about ASDF3 to be able to tell you if there are more sophisticated solutions to your problem. I imagine something using the :in-order-to things might be possible, but I just don't know. 2015-04-08T15:04:01Z DrWatriguez is now known as DrWat 2015-04-08T15:04:09Z fe[nl]ix_: Shinmera: what do you want to do ? 2015-04-08T15:04:21Z Shinmera: I don't want to do anything, beach is the person to ask. 2015-04-08T15:04:27Z beach: But, initially, I was thinking that there should be no mention of a test system in the non-test system. Or put another way, if I add a test system to a module that previously did not have one, it should be possible to do so without modifying the non-test system. 2015-04-08T15:04:58Z gklimowicz joined #lisp 2015-04-08T15:05:01Z Shinmera: beach: In that case you might be able to abuse ASDF by copying a system definition and changing its components. 2015-04-08T15:05:08Z smokeink_ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T15:05:26Z beach: And another criterion was that I don't want to duplicate the components, for reasons of maintainability. 2015-04-08T15:05:39Z Shinmera: Err, I mean, copy the system instance. 2015-04-08T15:05:39Z beach: I am not sure this can all be accomplished, of course. 2015-04-08T15:06:01Z beach: I am doing something similar to that. 2015-04-08T15:06:15Z beach: I create a new system by modifying the components of the non-test system. 2015-04-08T15:06:45Z beach: ... replacing all components "x" by "../x" except when x = packages. 2015-04-08T15:07:21Z beach: But yeah, it might be easier to do it the other way around, changing only packages. 2015-04-08T15:07:59Z Shinmera: If the testing and main system are so tightly coupled it's arguable whether two separate asdf systems are justified over a feature test. 2015-04-08T15:08:04Z devll joined #lisp 2015-04-08T15:08:51Z beach: Shinmera: Right, I just admitted that I don't know the best solution, and that my criteria are not set in stone. 2015-04-08T15:09:45Z fe[nl]ix_: beach: what do you mean by "adding a test system" ? 2015-04-08T15:10:02Z beach: fe[nl]ix_: In SICL I have "modules" that implement some Common Lisp functionality, e.g. for strings. In such a module I want an ASDF system definition and a package definition that look "natural", .... 2015-04-08T15:10:28Z beach: i.e., I want (defpackage #:sicl-string (:use #:common-lisp)) 2015-04-08T15:10:54Z beach: and I want (in-package #:sicl-string) (defun string-equal ....) 2015-04-08T15:11:13Z beach: Clearly, this system can not be loaded into a host other than SICL. 2015-04-08T15:11:21Z devll quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T15:11:29Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-08T15:11:33Z beach: Now I want to test this module in a host, e.g., SBCL. 2015-04-08T15:11:54Z beach: So I want to add a "test system". For instance in SICL/String/Test/... 2015-04-08T15:12:08Z arbscht joined #lisp 2015-04-08T15:12:24Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-04-08T15:12:37Z beach: The question is how to do this, if possible without modifying the original system, while respecting the OAOO principle. 2015-04-08T15:12:45Z theseb quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-08T15:13:01Z fe[nl]ix_: what does the test system look like ? 2015-04-08T15:13:27Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-04-08T15:13:35Z beach: fe[nl]ix_: In the simplest case, I want the test system to be identical to the original one, except that I want the packages file to be replaced by one that shadows Common Lisp symbols. 2015-04-08T15:13:57Z beach: ... and maybe with another file or two for the test code itself. 2015-04-08T15:14:04Z fe[nl]ix_: so in the first case, DEFPACKAGE is the SICL one ? 2015-04-08T15:14:19Z beach: Yeah. 2015-04-08T15:14:57Z fe[nl]ix_: you can use an empty :USE list 2015-04-08T15:15:08Z fe[nl]ix_: which means use the default list of packages 2015-04-08T15:15:19Z fe[nl]ix_: and have DEFPACKAGE dispatch on the host CL 2015-04-08T15:15:52Z fe[nl]ix_: unless on SBCL the default USE list is the empty list 2015-04-08T15:15:53Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-08T15:16:04Z beach: I believe it is. 2015-04-08T15:16:12Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-08T15:16:54Z beach: But you are giving me new directions for thought. 2015-04-08T15:17:19Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-04-08T15:17:56Z fe[nl]ix_: or you can have SICL:DEFPACKAGE do various trickery to allow compilation in a different host 2015-04-08T15:18:18Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T15:19:46Z beach: You mean that in the non-test system, DEFPACKAGE means something other than the host defpackage? 2015-04-08T15:19:59Z fe[nl]ix_: yes 2015-04-08T15:20:42Z beach: That is defeated by another habit I have started with, namely to use (CL:IN-PACKAGE ...) in every file. 2015-04-08T15:21:23Z beach: ... in case *package* is not set right when the file is read. 2015-04-08T15:21:39Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-08T15:21:42Z dlowe: not a bad idea 2015-04-08T15:22:04Z beach: That's what I think, but I am creating problems for myself. :) 2015-04-08T15:22:19Z fe[nl]ix_: beach: that's a commendable habit, but such sanity measures are better left to the compilation environment 2015-04-08T15:22:22Z fe[nl]ix_: i.e. ASDF 2015-04-08T15:22:36Z beach: Maybe so. 2015-04-08T15:23:09Z beach: But problems are meant to be solved, so I don't despair quite yet. 2015-04-08T15:23:54Z dlowe: does asdf ensure *package* is sane? 2015-04-08T15:26:00Z fe[nl]ix_: nowadays I think so 2015-04-08T15:26:09Z beach: As a side note, the reason I want systems to look "natural" is that this version is the only one I ever need, even for bootstrapping purposes. 2015-04-08T15:27:04Z fe[nl]ix_: dlowe: it's pretty recent, but I like to add version guards in .asd files to make sure the host ASDF is not too old 2015-04-08T15:27:42Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-08T15:28:10Z beach: I won't need any (cl:in-package #:sicl!@string) or (define-early-macro ...) 2015-04-08T15:28:55Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-08T15:32:40Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-08T15:33:50Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T15:35:53Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-08T15:38:45Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-08T15:40:58Z shka joined #lisp 2015-04-08T15:41:10Z pjb: beach: using (cl:in-package can be defeated by reader macros, therefore there's no point in using it. Better keep (in-package. 2015-04-08T15:41:27Z shka: good afternoon everyone 2015-04-08T15:41:38Z beach: Hello shka. 2015-04-08T15:41:54Z beach: pjb: I am not trying to protect myself against intentional damage. 2015-04-08T15:42:05Z beach: pjb: Only accidental. 2015-04-08T15:42:13Z pjb: I don't mean damage, I mean extensions. 2015-04-08T15:42:34Z pjb: beach: and otherwise, indeed, playing tricks with packages like this can be applied to testing. 2015-04-08T15:43:13Z smokeink quit (Quit: Angelic v4.4 - http://angelic.flexnet.org) 2015-04-08T15:43:33Z pjb: You could write a macro: (with-testing-unit (asdf:oos 'asdf:compile-op "sicl-string")) would compile a testing version. 2015-04-08T15:43:52Z beach: pjb: I will not write any code that will defeat (CL:IN-PACKAGE ...) but I might accidentally have code that doesn't have the right value of *PACKAGE* when a file is loaded. 2015-04-08T15:43:59Z ovenpasta quit (Quit: Sto andando via) 2015-04-08T15:44:56Z pjb: beach: see for example ibcl: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/ibcl.lisp 2015-04-08T15:45:25Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T15:45:48Z mj-0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T15:45:53Z pjb: Now the question is whether asdf do bind *package* to a specific package around compile-file or load? 2015-04-08T15:45:53Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T15:45:57Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T15:46:02Z beach: You need to tell me why you want me to look at it. 2015-04-08T15:46:12Z beach: Oh, I see. 2015-04-08T15:46:20Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-04-08T15:46:30Z pjb: It's an example of how to substitute a package like "COMMON-LISP" by another concrete package without the loaded source being aware of it. 2015-04-08T15:46:34Z beach: You are saying if I choose not to protect myself against the possible accidents, this is what I can do. 2015-04-08T15:46:39Z pjb: yes. 2015-04-08T15:46:53Z beach: But I have already made that choice so it is not an option. 2015-04-08T15:46:54Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-08T15:46:57Z pjb: ok. 2015-04-08T15:47:08Z beach: ... at least not yet :) 2015-04-08T15:47:35Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-04-08T15:48:44Z rhllor joined #lisp 2015-04-08T15:48:56Z slimetree quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-08T15:49:21Z Xof: you can change packages' use-lists at runtime 2015-04-08T15:49:43Z beach: I was just thinking something similar. 2015-04-08T15:49:44Z Xof: so for your testing code, you can unuse-package common-lisp and use-package something else 2015-04-08T15:49:47Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T15:49:56Z beach: Yeah. That's probably the best solution. 2015-04-08T15:49:59Z Xof: (I haven't read all the scrollback so I might not have the details right) 2015-04-08T15:51:08Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-08T15:51:16Z xinau quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-08T15:51:20Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-08T15:51:26Z beach: I was thinking of calling SHADOW. 2015-04-08T15:52:54Z Xof: or that 2015-04-08T15:55:14Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T15:55:16Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-04-08T15:55:40Z beach vanishes to contemplate... 2015-04-08T15:55:41Z Shinmera: In other things, I've got Parasol /almost/ working again with Qtools 0.5 and the new image-tools system I've been smashing my head against for the past few days. https://twitter.com/Shinmera/status/585830704195469312 2015-04-08T15:55:56Z hydan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T15:56:01Z Shinmera: Well, it works with Qtools, but the latter isn't quite finished yet. 2015-04-08T15:56:19Z shka: Shinmera: congrats! 2015-04-08T15:56:47Z xan_ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-08T15:56:51Z Shinmera: Thanks. I hope I can get this last problem sorted out and then forget about it again for a while. 2015-04-08T16:02:25Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T16:10:49Z nejm joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:11:00Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:15:42Z xan_ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:17:46Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:17:50Z thodg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T16:18:05Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-08T16:18:36Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-08T16:18:47Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T16:18:52Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-08T16:19:30Z shka joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:19:50Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-08T16:21:42Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:22:47Z vap1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-08T16:23:53Z thodg joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:23:57Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:25:19Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:25:49Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-08T16:26:24Z GuilOooo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-08T16:27:17Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:27:32Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-08T16:27:41Z Cooper__ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:27:45Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:27:57Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-08T16:29:30Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-08T16:29:41Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-08T16:29:50Z Cooper__ quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-08T16:30:22Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:31:46Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:32:11Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:32:34Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:32:59Z Posterdati: froggey: hi 2015-04-08T16:34:32Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:35:39Z sz0 quit (Quit: Bye.) 2015-04-08T16:36:03Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:36:05Z Cooper__ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:36:23Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:40:42Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:41:00Z inorbit joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:41:13Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-08T16:46:40Z beach left #lisp 2015-04-08T16:47:35Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-08T16:47:40Z badkins quit 2015-04-08T16:48:03Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:52:18Z xan_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-08T16:53:41Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-08T16:54:53Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:55:01Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:56:01Z Toaster_Strudel joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:56:05Z Toaster_Strudel: is this cad lisp? 2015-04-08T16:56:40Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-08T16:57:30Z Toaster_Strudel: this is getting flagged as a worm.. do you know what its doing? 2015-04-08T16:57:34Z Toaster_Strudel: http://pastebin.com/LPS7eLeZ 2015-04-08T16:58:04Z Xach: Toaster_Strudel: this channel is for common lisp 2015-04-08T16:58:52Z Toaster_Strudel: oh right.. 2015-04-08T16:58:55Z Toaster_Strudel: so not cad? 2015-04-08T16:59:22Z dlowe: There's a ##lisp channel for discussion of all lisp dialects 2015-04-08T16:59:35Z Xach: not cad 2015-04-08T17:00:07Z SAL9000: Toaster_Strudel: what kind of cad? #autocad has it's own channel 2015-04-08T17:01:07Z johnchalekson quit (Quit: #DIGITALAIDS https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/article/20141208120947-185994207-freenode-net-using-mirc-to-keep-up-with-popular-programming-trends facebook.com/realjohnchalekson) 2015-04-08T17:03:26Z Toaster_Strudel: k, cool 2015-04-08T17:03:30Z Toaster_Strudel: thanks 2015-04-08T17:04:12Z Toaster_Strudel: SAL9000: the autocad channel is borked 2015-04-08T17:04:13Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:05:26Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-08T17:07:32Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:08:26Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:13:46Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-08T17:14:25Z xan_ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:15:32Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T17:18:29Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:20:46Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:21:17Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:23:46Z larion joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:24:51Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-08T17:24:58Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T17:26:38Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-08T17:29:44Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:30:26Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:31:34Z froggey: Posterdati: hi. how is the build going? 2015-04-08T17:31:41Z Posterdati: nice 2015-04-08T17:31:56Z Posterdati: there were some fixes to do 2015-04-08T17:32:09Z Posterdati: especially the repositories 2015-04-08T17:32:21Z Posterdati: downloaded iterate won't compile 2015-04-08T17:32:40Z Posterdati: it's better to let quickload download it while loading :lispos-file 2015-04-08T17:32:59Z froggey: quickload? 2015-04-08T17:33:29Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:33:32Z froggey: oh, are you using the version that quicklisp downloads? 2015-04-08T17:33:35Z Posterdati: ues 2015-04-08T17:33:38Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2015-04-08T17:33:38Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:33:41Z Posterdati: yes 2015-04-08T17:33:54Z dfinninger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T17:33:59Z Posterdati: the one downloaded from repositories won't compile 2015-04-08T17:34:19Z Posterdati: now I'm running the image in the qemu-x86 2015-04-08T17:34:19Z froggey: strange. did the other compile ok? 2015-04-08T17:34:24Z Posterdati: yes 2015-04-08T17:34:32Z Posterdati: it compiles flawlessy 2015-04-08T17:34:51Z froggey: great! 2015-04-08T17:34:58Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T17:35:02Z Posterdati: I forgot to place mandarin :) 2015-04-08T17:35:45Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:36:04Z froggey: how far along are you? still building stuff? 2015-04-08T17:36:13Z xan_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-08T17:36:38Z Posterdati: I'm at the fonts 2015-04-08T17:36:50Z Posterdati: SansCondensed.ttf.1 2015-04-08T17:36:52Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:37:23Z Posterdati: BoldOblique 2015-04-08T17:37:54Z froggey: this is the package with all the fonts in: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dejavu/files/dejavu/2.34/dejavu-fonts-ttf-2.34.tar.bz2 2015-04-08T17:38:04Z Posterdati: I used that 2015-04-08T17:38:20Z froggey: you should have "DejaVuSans.ttf" and "DejaVuSansMono.ttf" 2015-04-08T17:38:37Z froggey: probably some more as well 2015-04-08T17:38:46Z Toaster_Strudel left #lisp 2015-04-08T17:38:54Z Posterdati: they are 2015-04-08T17:40:54Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:40:59Z ``Erik quit (Ping timeout: 251 seconds) 2015-04-08T17:41:20Z froggey: is it still building things or has it run into trouble? 2015-04-08T17:41:41Z smokeink_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-08T17:41:46Z xan_ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:42:39Z vdamewood quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-04-08T17:42:53Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T17:43:32Z Posterdati: still building 2015-04-08T17:43:47Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-08T17:43:58Z Posterdati: the indicators are crazy!!!!! 2015-04-08T17:44:12Z admg joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:44:25Z Posterdati: the cyan one is always lit 2015-04-08T17:44:42Z Posterdati: but messages on the log going on 2015-04-08T17:44:44Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:45:12Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:47:57Z Bicyclid1ne joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:49:06Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-08T17:49:11Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:49:24Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:49:27Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T17:50:05Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:50:18Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:50:44Z gklimowicz quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-04-08T17:56:04Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-08T17:57:18Z Posterdati: froggey: is still grinding code... Will my cpu work after that? 2015-04-08T17:57:30Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-04-08T17:58:52Z froggey: maybe. I haven't killed any hardware yet 2015-04-08T17:59:15Z Posterdati: lol 2015-04-08T17:59:30Z Posterdati: I hope to test some sbc here 2015-04-08T18:00:29Z froggey: sbc? 2015-04-08T18:03:12Z Posterdati: small board computer 2015-04-08T18:03:14Z drmeister: The structure of a (SETF FOO) function seems backwards. I say: (defun (setf foo) (x y) ...) and call it using (setf (foo y) x) - can someone help me understand why the CL designers designed it this way? 2015-04-08T18:03:27Z Posterdati: like raspberry pi 2015-04-08T18:04:06Z drmeister: Or is it just "that's the way it is - suck it up". Because I can live with that too. 2015-04-08T18:05:17Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T18:05:29Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-08T18:06:11Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T18:07:45Z froggey: drmeister: I think the way lambda-lists are laid out pretty much forces the new-value argument to be at the front 2015-04-08T18:07:58Z froggey: if it were at the end, then it'd interfer with &optional/etc arguments 2015-04-08T18:08:30Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-08T18:09:13Z froggey: *interfere 2015-04-08T18:09:25Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-08T18:10:58Z drmeister: froggey: Hmm, I can feel good about that - thanks. I'm scratching my head trying to come up with an example where it would be important but you raise a good point: if I'm going to SETF something there's always going to be a new value. I guess there may or may not be variable(s) that indicate the place that is being SETF beyond the (SETF FOO) name? 2015-04-08T18:13:17Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-04-08T18:15:36Z froggey: a practical example: (incf (gethash key table 0)). this expands to something like (setf (gethash key table 0) (1+ (gethash key table 0))). (SETF GETHASH)'s default argument is optional and actually ignored, but it still has to be present because modify macros like INCF don't know that it can be elided 2015-04-08T18:15:53Z Posterdati: froggey: still running :) 2015-04-08T18:16:48Z Pastaf joined #lisp 2015-04-08T18:18:24Z froggey: Posterdati: if you look at the messages the file-server is producing, you might be able to get some idea of how close to the end you are 2015-04-08T18:20:47Z gniourf: I want to increment all the elements of a list in-place. (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (incf x 1)) test) doesn't modify test 2015-04-08T18:24:03Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T18:24:15Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-08T18:26:54Z bobbysmith007: gniourf: you are incrementing the binding of x in lambda 2015-04-08T18:27:18Z gniourf: bobbysmith007, that makes sense… 2015-04-08T18:27:21Z bobbysmith007: gniourf: you will want to either build a new list, or loop/iterate cons cells setting the car 2015-04-08T18:27:38Z bobbysmith007: the loop keyword is ON as in (loop for cons on list...) 2015-04-08T18:27:54Z Shinmera: (mapl (lambda (x) (incf (car x))) list) 2015-04-08T18:28:18Z bobbysmith007: or you can do a recursive decomposition. But honestly consing a new list is better anyway unless you are REALLY need to be setting 2015-04-08T18:28:52Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-08T18:29:15Z gniourf: Shinmera, that looks promising 2015-04-08T18:29:49Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-08T18:30:04Z gniourf: bobbysmith007, I already have a recursive working function… I'm experimenting a little bit 2015-04-08T18:30:07Z dkcl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T18:30:50Z scymtym: gniourf: (map-into list #'1+ list) may also do what you want 2015-04-08T18:31:34Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-08T18:31:40Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-04-08T18:31:58Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-08T18:32:24Z gniourf: scymtym, ah that looks nice too 2015-04-08T18:32:35Z Shinmera: I always forget about map-into somehow 2015-04-08T18:32:54Z gniourf: scymtym, in fact it looks like it's exactly what I need! 2015-04-08T18:33:19Z gniourf: many thanks! 2015-04-08T18:33:19Z Shinmera: My MAPL solution also does exactly what you need, but it's definitely longer. 2015-04-08T18:33:21Z Skuzzzy joined #lisp 2015-04-08T18:33:39Z jasom: I wonder how hard it would be to iterate over the symbols in a package and warn about all functions that are neither exported nor called 2015-04-08T18:33:41Z scymtym: gniourf: no problem 2015-04-08T18:34:03Z Posterdati: froggey: error~ 2015-04-08T18:34:06Z Posterdati: froggey: error! 2015-04-08T18:34:16Z Shinmera: jasom: Shouldn't be too hard if you can access slime's "who-calls". 2015-04-08T18:34:22Z gniourf: Shinmera, mapl is really cool too... :) 2015-04-08T18:34:44Z Posterdati: froggey: Unable to REQUIRE module CL-VECTORS. 2015-04-08T18:35:10Z dfinninger joined #lisp 2015-04-08T18:35:14Z Skuzzzy: Im looking for a good book to learn steel bank common lisp. I really would like it to teach syntax in detail 2015-04-08T18:35:42Z Shinmera: SBCL is an implementation. You won't find a book for it. 2015-04-08T18:35:45Z dennis_ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T18:35:48Z dennis_: guys 2015-04-08T18:35:53Z Xach: Skuzzzy: there is no book specifically for SBCL. the syntax is standardized, so a book on any common lisp will help you use SBCL. 2015-04-08T18:36:03Z dennis_: how do I make trivial-irc work with unicode? 2015-04-08T18:36:08Z Skuzzzy: Alright then I was asking the wrong question 2015-04-08T18:36:11Z dennis_: it uses usocket btw 2015-04-08T18:36:12Z Xach: Skuzzzy: i like practical common lisp and paradigms of ai programming for learning common lisp 2015-04-08T18:36:21Z Shinmera: dennis_: Fix your implementation's default external format. 2015-04-08T18:36:29Z dennis_: Shinmera: explain pls 2015-04-08T18:36:31Z madnificent quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-08T18:36:38Z dennis_: im on sbcl 2015-04-08T18:36:50Z Skuzzzy: "that book is dead sexy —Xach on #lisp" 2015-04-08T18:36:54Z Shinmera: What am I supposed to be explaining? 2015-04-08T18:37:00Z dennis_: how do I fix it? 2015-04-08T18:37:10Z Shinmera: I just told you how 2015-04-08T18:37:12Z Skuzzzy: I was turned off from the book because it just jumped into making the example database without explaining anything 2015-04-08T18:37:21Z Skuzzzy: it comes back to s expressions and how lists are implemented 2015-04-08T18:37:26Z Skuzzzy: but it looks like its much later 2015-04-08T18:37:32Z dennis_: Shinmera: how do I fix it? 2015-04-08T18:37:39Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T18:38:00Z C-Keen: Skuzzzy: Land of Lisp is also a good start 2015-04-08T18:38:03Z dennis_: I'm pretty sure its a usocket issue actually 2015-04-08T18:38:11Z C-Keen: Skuzzzy: in my opinion 2015-04-08T18:38:16Z ggole quit 2015-04-08T18:38:17Z dennis_: is there a way to set usocket to allow unicode characters? 2015-04-08T18:38:20Z Shinmera: You're wrong. 2015-04-08T18:38:23Z Xach: dennis_: what do you get from sb-impl::*default-external-format*? 2015-04-08T18:38:27Z froggey: Posterdati: you have the cl-vectors repo cloned? 2015-04-08T18:38:54Z dennis_: sb-impl::*default-external-format* 2015-04-08T18:38:57Z dennis_: whoops 2015-04-08T18:39:02Z dennis_: :ANSI_X3.4-1968 2015-04-08T18:39:19Z dennis_: can I set that to something else? 2015-04-08T18:39:31Z Posterdati: froggey: no! Cloning it now 2015-04-08T18:39:33Z Xach: dennis_: one way is to set environment variables before starting sbcl 2015-04-08T18:39:42Z dfinninger quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-08T18:39:46Z Skuzzzy: C-Keen: Ill check it out thanks 2015-04-08T18:39:54Z dennis_: can I just setf the external format? 2015-04-08T18:40:12Z Xach: dennis_: what to use varies by system, but i use export LANG=en_US.UTF-8 on mac 2015-04-08T18:40:20Z Xach: and linux, too, i guess 2015-04-08T18:40:39Z Xach: dennis_: i think so, but the use of sb-impl:: is not guaranteed to work long-term 2015-04-08T18:40:42Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-08T18:40:55Z dennis_: Xach: what do I setf it to? 2015-04-08T18:41:12Z Xach: dennis_: :UTF-8 2015-04-08T18:41:19Z dennis_: k 2015-04-08T18:41:22Z dennis_: thx so much 2015-04-08T18:41:33Z tstc joined #lisp 2015-04-08T18:41:36Z Xach: Shinmera: If you're not interested in helping, please at least not respond. 2015-04-08T18:42:18Z dennis_ left #lisp 2015-04-08T18:43:13Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-08T18:44:00Z shka joined #lisp 2015-04-08T18:45:26Z C-Keen: Skuzzzy: if you have read it tell me what you think 2015-04-08T18:45:26Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-08T18:47:10Z Skuzzzy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-08T18:49:49Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T18:49:51Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-04-08T18:53:05Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-08T18:54:30Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T18:54:31Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-04-08T18:55:23Z Posterdati: froggey: red line! 2015-04-08T18:55:40Z Posterdati: page fault on unmapped page 6000027FFF60 in thread #<7B7D29> 2015-04-08T18:56:28Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T18:56:44Z warweasle: Any idea why a cffi type (a pointer) would not be visible from inside the same package? 2015-04-08T18:57:53Z froggey: Posterdati: GC bug. restarting the VM should "fix" it 2015-04-08T19:00:54Z Posterdati: restarted 2015-04-08T19:01:01Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-08T19:03:56Z larion joined #lisp 2015-04-08T19:05:15Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T19:05:39Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2015-04-08T19:06:44Z whartung quit (Quit: whartung) 2015-04-08T19:06:47Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-04-08T19:08:09Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T19:11:27Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T19:14:59Z thodg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-08T19:19:40Z x1n4u joined #lisp 2015-04-08T19:25:10Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-08T19:25:29Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-04-08T19:27:59Z dfinninger joined #lisp 2015-04-08T19:29:35Z Bicyclid1ne: warweasle: not visible how? 2015-04-08T19:31:57Z monod joined #lisp 2015-04-08T19:32:06Z monod: hello! 2015-04-08T19:33:02Z Posterdati: froggey: page fault on unmapped page 70000040C360 in thread #<454AC9> 2015-04-08T19:33:35Z Posterdati: on the os desktop appeared icons and the mandarin 2015-04-08T19:34:38Z froggey: nearly there. you have everything built. try restarting the VM again 2015-04-08T19:35:39Z Posterdati: page fault on unmapped page 4000000142A0 in thread #<7B7D29> 2015-04-08T19:36:37Z Posterdati: page fault on unmapped page 4000000142A0 in thread #<7B7D29> 2015-04-08T19:36:40Z froggey: ok. you'll have to build a new cold image and boot that. you won't need to recompile anything, so it shouldn't take too long 2015-04-08T19:36:54Z Posterdati: how? 2015-04-08T19:37:37Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-08T19:37:41Z froggey: make image, I think 2015-04-08T19:43:26Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T19:43:42Z A205B064 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T19:44:34Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-08T19:45:37Z nejm quit (Quit: nejm) 2015-04-08T19:46:40Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-04-08T19:49:00Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T19:49:47Z d4ryus_ is now known as d4ryus 2015-04-08T19:49:57Z A205B064 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T19:50:30Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-08T19:52:03Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T19:52:14Z thodg joined #lisp 2015-04-08T19:54:09Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2015-04-08T19:56:13Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-08T20:00:57Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-08T20:01:21Z shka joined #lisp 2015-04-08T20:01:57Z Posterdati: froggey: page fault on unmapped page 400003D49F20 in thread #<7B7D29> 2015-04-08T20:02:00Z Posterdati: again 2015-04-08T20:04:00Z froggey: I'm not sure why you're getting so many page faults. can you email me the whole serial log? 2015-04-08T20:04:34Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T20:04:34Z Xof quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-08T20:04:38Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-04-08T20:05:06Z francogrex: some shit autocad is getting uploaded into github and labeled as common lisp! 2015-04-08T20:05:40Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-04-08T20:06:01Z shka quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-08T20:06:28Z shka joined #lisp 2015-04-08T20:08:03Z s1n4 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-08T20:11:08Z ``Erik joined #lisp 2015-04-08T20:12:34Z monod: uhm 2015-04-08T20:12:36Z antgreen joined #lisp 2015-04-08T20:12:47Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-08T20:12:47Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-08T20:12:48Z monod: can I ask in this channel about quicklisp, sbcl and slime? 2015-04-08T20:12:57Z monod: or is it the wrong place? 2015-04-08T20:13:06Z futpib quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-08T20:13:07Z shka joined #lisp 2015-04-08T20:13:26Z francogrex: the good place 2015-04-08T20:13:27Z Bicyclid1ne: go for it 2015-04-08T20:13:58Z monod: ok :D then, I have just "ql"oaded slime 2015-04-08T20:14:03Z TristamWrk: I remember sbcl and slime in my AI class...those were fun times. 2015-04-08T20:14:17Z monod: hmm, like (ql:quickinstall slime) kinda 2015-04-08T20:14:34Z monod: btw, everything that was written in the online quicklisp instructions 2015-04-08T20:14:37Z monod: quicklisp beta 2015-04-08T20:14:44Z monod: btw, I open emacs 2015-04-08T20:14:54Z monod: hit Meta-x and then type slime 2015-04-08T20:15:09Z monod: I didn't try uppercase X, because I did not think it would be that 2015-04-08T20:15:22Z monod: anyway, M-x slime does not return anything 2015-04-08T20:15:43Z monod: is there a step that I've missed? 2015-04-08T20:15:54Z guaqua: you probably aren't loading slime on emacs startup 2015-04-08T20:16:53Z monod: :O 2015-04-08T20:17:24Z guaqua: if you look up "quicklisp-slime-helper" on http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ 2015-04-08T20:17:38Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-08T20:18:01Z monod: oh right 2015-04-08T20:18:10Z monod: I must have missed it 2015-04-08T20:18:11Z guaqua: you basically have to add something like (load (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el")) or similar in your emacs initialization file, .emacs or similar 2015-04-08T20:18:56Z guaqua: it's understandable. the setup has a number of moving parts. all of them in different lisps so it's not always immediately clear where every piece belongs 2015-04-08T20:19:36Z guaqua: slime on the emacs side, swank on the common lisp side. both emacs and your common lisp implementation need modifications in their initialization to use quicklisp etc 2015-04-08T20:20:21Z guaqua: (although i'm not sure whether the inferior-lisp rc-file needs modifications if one always starts it up via quicklisp-enabled slime?) 2015-04-08T20:20:59Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-04-08T20:21:13Z gko__ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-08T20:21:23Z Xach: (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper") will print some instructions that will usually work. 2015-04-08T20:22:02Z guaqua: Xach, is there a 5 years birthday party coming for quicklisp? ;) 2015-04-08T20:22:18Z Xach: I should celebrate one way or another 2015-04-08T20:22:48Z rszeno quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-08T20:22:57Z guaqua: you definitely should :) 2015-04-08T20:24:22Z monod: thanks for the help guaqua ^^ 2015-04-08T20:24:32Z monod: and Xach 2015-04-08T20:24:36Z Xach: no problem 2015-04-08T20:24:46Z Posterdati: froggey: I was able to run the lispos on virtualbox: I had to choose windows xp as guest os type and enable 2d acceleration 2015-04-08T20:25:20Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-04-08T20:25:46Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-08T20:25:47Z guaqua: monod: "may the source be with you" 2015-04-08T20:25:53Z monod: xDD 2015-04-08T20:27:38Z froggey: Posterdati: interesting. did it make it to the desktop or is it still loading things? 2015-04-08T20:28:05Z Posterdati: now I'm running the qemu machine 2015-04-08T20:28:09Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T20:28:14Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T20:28:43Z A205B064 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T20:28:44Z Posterdati: and launched the virtualbox one to see... It was fast but blocked at sys.int repl with no activity at all 2015-04-08T20:29:33Z froggey: virtualbox configured with a virtio-net nic? 2015-04-08T20:29:34Z Posterdati: I think it cannot share the fileserver with qemu too 2015-04-08T20:29:40Z Posterdati: yes 2015-04-08T20:29:45Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-04-08T20:29:54Z Posterdati: NAT 2015-04-08T20:29:57Z froggey: right 2015-04-08T20:30:00Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-08T20:30:06Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-08T20:32:53Z Posterdati: froggey: I'm going to stop qemu and test virtualbox! 2015-04-08T20:33:06Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-08T20:34:49Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T20:37:27Z Posterdati: froggey: virtualbox hangs 2015-04-08T20:38:12Z electrojustin joined #lisp 2015-04-08T20:39:41Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-08T20:39:51Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T20:39:59Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T20:40:31Z cpc26__ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T20:41:07Z cpc26_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-08T20:42:00Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-08T20:42:54Z froggey: Posterdati: have you given it enough memory? 512MB 2015-04-08T20:43:20Z froggey: and have you got the serial log from virtualbox? 2015-04-08T20:43:20Z Posterdati: 1024 2015-04-08T20:43:32Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-08T20:43:37Z Posterdati: no I disabled them to get more speed! :) 2015-04-08T20:43:59Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T20:44:00Z Posterdati: for now I'm retrying qemu 2015-04-08T20:44:16Z froggey: fair enough, but I can't really help without the logs 2015-04-08T20:44:46Z Posterdati: yes I know 2015-04-08T20:44:59Z Posterdati: I will provide them very soon 2015-04-08T20:45:06Z froggey: ok 2015-04-08T20:45:22Z Posterdati: as I will got page fault 2015-04-08T20:46:16Z Posterdati: snapshot in progress a couple of time 2015-04-08T20:46:56Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-04-08T20:47:07Z rhllor quit (Quit: rhllor) 2015-04-08T20:47:33Z Posterdati: now: red cyan yellow 2015-04-08T20:47:49Z Posterdati: orange flashing 2015-04-08T20:48:24Z Posterdati: got mandarin :) 2015-04-08T20:48:36Z froggey: without it crashing? 2015-04-08T20:48:42Z Posterdati: yes 2015-04-08T20:48:45Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-08T20:48:49Z froggey: great! 2015-04-08T20:48:53Z Posterdati: red and yello 2015-04-08T20:49:09Z Posterdati: sys.int> stays on desktop 2015-04-08T20:49:27Z froggey: wait for the yellow light to go out, then try rebooting your VM. it should boot to the desktop much faster. don't reboot when the yellow light is on! 2015-04-08T20:49:49Z froggey: yeah, you can move the window around with alt+drag 2015-04-08T20:50:15Z Posterdati: works!!!! 2015-04-08T20:50:18Z Posterdati: great 2015-04-08T20:51:06Z froggey: thanks for persevering, we got there in the end :) 2015-04-08T20:51:31Z Shinmera: That was quite the journey to follow along to. 2015-04-08T20:52:21Z Posterdati: froggey: thanks to you and your patience 2015-04-08T20:53:03Z Posterdati: froggey: I think you can add the improvements made by pjb to prepare the machine, possibly all in lisp 2015-04-08T20:53:48Z Posterdati: froggey: can we use that on a mips machine (debian wheezy + sbcl or clisp)? 2015-04-08T20:54:29Z Posterdati: froggey: may I write the image on an usb key and boot from it? 2015-04-08T20:55:55Z froggey: it won't work on mips or arm, only x86-64. but you might be able to build it there with a VM 2015-04-08T20:56:20Z hq1 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T20:56:47Z froggey: and running it on real hardware is tricky. it won't run from usb yet (no usb drivers) and needs to be installed on a normal ATA hard disk 2015-04-08T20:57:00Z Posterdati: froggey: what if we compile it with a mips sbcl? 2015-04-08T20:58:54Z froggey: you get an x86-64 image. I load my own compiler into SBCL (seperate from the standard CL compiler) and use that to build everything 2015-04-08T20:59:15Z Posterdati: ok 2015-04-08T20:59:27Z Posterdati: you wrote an x86 assembler 2015-04-08T20:59:37Z froggey: I can't use the SBCL compiler, because that's generating code that expects the SBCL runtime 2015-04-08T20:59:40Z froggey: I did 2015-04-08T20:59:53Z Posterdati: I saw it 2015-04-08T20:59:54Z froggey: it was pretty horrible 2015-04-08T21:00:02Z Posterdati: it's impressive 2015-04-08T21:00:24Z Posterdati: I'm almost to finish a lap for arm and currently testing a lap for avr 2015-04-08T21:01:15Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-08T21:01:31Z Posterdati: '((: nop) (:ldi :r0 10)) 2015-04-08T21:01:37Z Posterdati: something like that 2015-04-08T21:02:12Z froggey: if you wanted to run mezzano on mips you would need to: 1) write a mips assembler. 2) make the object layout 32-bit safe. 3) rewrite the compiler's code generator. 4) rewrite the supervisor so it runs on mips. 5) fix all the places where I've assumed x86-64 in the code 2015-04-08T21:02:29Z froggey: this wouldn't be a small job 2015-04-08T21:02:44Z froggey: same applies to ARM, and even to 32-bit x86 2015-04-08T21:03:06Z Posterdati: the yellow indicato went off 2015-04-08T21:03:43Z froggey: try restarting the VM. it'll either boot straight to the desktop, or be broken 2015-04-08T21:03:56Z Posterdati: how can I shutoff it? 2015-04-08T21:04:18Z froggey: just close the window. you don't have to tell it to shut down 2015-04-08T21:04:27Z Posterdati: ok 2015-04-08T21:04:29Z ajtulloc_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-08T21:05:04Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-08T21:05:20Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-08T21:05:23Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T21:05:43Z Posterdati: froggey: I'm using kvm it's faster 2015-04-08T21:05:55Z ynniv joined #lisp 2015-04-08T21:07:02Z Posterdati: froggey: boooom! I'm in!!! 2015-04-08T21:08:43Z Posterdati: froggey: mandelbrot is fine! 2015-04-08T21:09:00Z Posterdati: would you like a snapshot? 2015-04-08T21:09:01Z froggey: good good, it should all work now 2015-04-08T21:09:19Z Posterdati: nice? 2015-04-08T21:09:20Z froggey: I've seen it before :) 2015-04-08T21:09:26Z Posterdati: nice! 2015-04-08T21:10:36Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T21:11:16Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-04-08T21:11:25Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T21:12:02Z A205B064 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T21:12:02Z pos-lispos joined #lisp 2015-04-08T21:12:07Z pos-lispos: hi 2015-04-08T21:12:24Z pos-lispos: froggey: hi from a lispos user! 2015-04-08T21:12:34Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T21:13:44Z Posterdati: hi pos-lispos 2015-04-08T21:13:57Z A205B064 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T21:14:15Z kons joined #lisp 2015-04-08T21:14:20Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-08T21:14:33Z Guest78853 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T21:14:42Z Posterdati: froggey: your work is impressive! 2015-04-08T21:14:56Z srcerer quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2015-04-08T21:15:08Z froggey: thanks. there's still a long way to go :) 2015-04-08T21:15:32Z Posterdati: sure 2015-04-08T21:15:46Z Posterdati: could be nice to get a job from it 2015-04-08T21:16:33Z Guest78853 quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-08T21:16:53Z srcerer joined #lisp 2015-04-08T21:16:58Z andre_ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T21:17:16Z duggiefresh quit 2015-04-08T21:18:53Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T21:20:23Z Slothel quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T21:20:24Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T21:20:33Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-08T21:21:54Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T21:23:25Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-04-08T21:28:04Z ehu cheers as mailing list history for common-lisp.net mailing lists is restored, finally 2015-04-08T21:28:34Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-04-08T21:29:43Z ered quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T21:30:49Z vdamewood quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-04-08T21:31:58Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-08T21:33:32Z A205B064 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-08T21:33:45Z Xach: ehu: cool 2015-04-08T21:34:12Z ehu: Yea. Things start to feel a bit more complete now. 2015-04-08T21:34:19Z ehu: This was a too long outstanding task. 2015-04-08T21:34:31Z ehu: Feeling releaved. 2015-04-08T21:34:38Z ehu: (is that spelled correctly?) 2015-04-08T21:36:35Z Shinmera: "relieved", is probably what you're thinking. 2015-04-08T21:36:40Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-08T21:37:10Z ziocroc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T21:37:40Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-08T21:39:05Z Qudit314159 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T21:39:13Z ehu: Shinmera: yes. that's the word. 2015-04-08T21:39:18Z ehu: thanks! :-) 2015-04-08T21:39:53Z drmeister: Is there a function for getting the current column of a character stream? Or am I remembering an implementation dependent detail 2015-04-08T21:40:58Z Bicyclid1ne: i think that'd be implementation dependent. the stream might not be something that has columns, for one, like a network stream or a /dev/null 2015-04-08T21:41:29Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-08T21:42:41Z froggey: Gray streams provides stream-line-column 2015-04-08T21:45:14Z Bicyclid1ne quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T21:46:51Z Skuzzzy joined #lisp 2015-04-08T21:46:52Z drmeister: Hmm, I wonder how does pprint keep track of the column? It's screwing up occasionally in clasp and my sexpressions sometimes look like dog food. 2015-04-08T21:47:59Z ered joined #lisp 2015-04-08T21:50:17Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-08T21:50:30Z badkins quit 2015-04-08T21:50:33Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-08T21:51:36Z Xach: drmeister: i would guess the state stored in the stream object and updated whenever a character is output or some reset occurs 2015-04-08T21:51:37Z ehu: drmeister: pprint counts the number of characters sent to output. 2015-04-08T21:51:38Z Skuzzzy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T21:51:53Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-08T21:55:24Z admg quit (Quit: Laptop gone to sleep...) 2015-04-08T21:55:56Z ajtulloch quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-04-08T21:56:02Z jumblerg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-08T21:57:00Z Xach uses ~& and FRESH-LINE and is glad it works 2015-04-08T21:57:04Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-08T21:57:08Z bcoburn quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-08T21:59:02Z bcoburn joined #lisp 2015-04-08T21:59:34Z guaqua quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-08T22:03:46Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-08T22:03:59Z monod quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T22:04:09Z vsync quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-04-08T22:07:35Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-04-08T22:07:38Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-08T22:08:21Z vsync joined #lisp 2015-04-08T22:08:43Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-04-08T22:08:49Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-08T22:10:20Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-04-08T22:10:30Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-08T22:11:16Z alusion quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-08T22:12:29Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-08T22:17:20Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-08T22:19:09Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T22:22:06Z xristos quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-08T22:22:38Z slimetree joined #lisp 2015-04-08T22:24:11Z xristos joined #lisp 2015-04-08T22:24:13Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-04-08T22:24:34Z xristos is now known as Guest1866 2015-04-08T22:26:02Z inorbit quit 2015-04-08T22:30:35Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-04-08T22:34:33Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-08T22:34:51Z jumblerg quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-08T22:36:34Z a2015_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-08T22:37:51Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-04-08T22:41:13Z kons quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-08T22:47:30Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-08T22:49:59Z sebboh joined #lisp 2015-04-08T22:50:29Z dfinninger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-08T22:51:33Z sebboh: What's the name of that CL system which inspects some C header files (or the shared library or something?) and produces some convenient lisp that you can call to utilize the library? 2015-04-08T22:53:52Z clop joined #lisp 2015-04-08T22:54:56Z brucem: sebboh: grovel? 2015-04-08T22:55:02Z Xach: sebboh: cl-autowrap sounds something like that 2015-04-08T22:55:08Z Xach: https://github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap 2015-04-08T22:55:10Z {[]}grant joined #lisp 2015-04-08T22:55:14Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-04-08T22:56:07Z sebboh: brucem: yes, thanks. I heard of it in here some time ago but couldn't remember the name. 2015-04-08T22:57:05Z sebboh: Xach: I found cl-autowrap too, when I tried to search for grovel without knowing the name. I will read about each. 2015-04-08T22:58:12Z Guest1866 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-08T22:58:30Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-08T22:59:52Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-08T23:00:20Z hlavaty` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-08T23:02:19Z Slothrop joined #lisp 2015-04-08T23:02:26Z Slothrop is now known as Slothel 2015-04-08T23:03:02Z Slothel: Hey guys, quick question, this one is somewhat language agnostic so if it's not appropraite let me know. I'm looking for a good algorithms book, that is comprehensive and analyzes the algorithms mathematically rather than by code 2015-04-08T23:03:05Z Slothel: Any suggestions 2015-04-08T23:03:17Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-08T23:03:49Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2015-04-08T23:03:54Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-04-08T23:04:07Z zygentoma is now known as zygentoma^kneipe 2015-04-08T23:05:17Z GuilOooo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-08T23:06:44Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2015-04-08T23:08:19Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-08T23:13:09Z GuilOooo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-08T23:13:17Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2015-04-08T23:14:41Z xristos_ joined #lisp 2015-04-08T23:18:56Z Pastaf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-08T23:21:14Z pillton: Slothel: Perhaps you might get some ideas from here: http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/08/reference-books-im-bringing-across-the-border/ 2015-04-08T23:21:56Z pillton: I think Paul had another blog post about good books. 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That coupled with the very long cycle time for testing things. 2015-04-09T03:56:50Z drmeister: I've had to compile all of Cleavir/Clasp many times. That takes about two hours. 2015-04-09T03:58:23Z drmeister: Here's what a sample MIR graph looks like now. 2015-04-09T03:58:54Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/HLV43M9.png 2015-04-09T03:59:14Z drmeister: That is for: (clasp-cleavir:cleavir-compile 'foo '(lambda () (tagbody (funcall #'(lambda () (go b))) (print "skip") b (print "Done"))) :debug t) 2015-04-09T03:59:31Z drmeister: There are a bunch of new features. 2015-04-09T03:59:56Z drmeister: The LANDING-PAD-INSTRUCTION is gone - I consolidated its function with that of the ENTER-INSTRUCTION 2015-04-09T04:00:07Z drmeister: So there is a LANDING-PAD-NAMED-ENTER-INSTRUCTION 2015-04-09T04:00:39Z beach: OK. 2015-04-09T04:00:48Z drmeister: I also added a LANDING-PAD-RETURN-INSTRUCTION - it takes a second input that is the enclosed landing-pad tag 2015-04-09T04:01:14Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:02:11Z drmeister: It needs that to pop the landing-pad tag off of the exception stack. 2015-04-09T04:02:19Z beach: I see. 2015-04-09T04:04:00Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-09T04:04:16Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:06:46Z drmeister: I still have a problem that is driving me nuts. If I start up CClasp and type (error "FOO") and then invoke the restart to the top-level it fails and complains that there is an unhandled Unwind exception. 2015-04-09T04:07:46Z beach: You'll find it. 2015-04-09T04:08:43Z vsync quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-09T04:08:43Z samebchase quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-09T04:08:47Z honkfestival quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-09T04:09:11Z drmeister: It's most likely a problem with shared libraries, JITted code and exception C++ type ids. There is a known problem with throwing and catching C++ exceptions from one shared library to another and I've seen the problem before and solved it. I just can't see for the life of my why it would be happening now. 2015-04-09T04:09:14Z honkfestival joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:09:14Z vsync joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:09:28Z samebchase joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:09:53Z drmeister: I probably still have a problem with environments that I'll have to talk to you about once I can get to that stage again. 2015-04-09T04:10:33Z beach: Sure. Do you mean compile-time environments? 2015-04-09T04:10:55Z drmeister: I did what you said and switched from calling EVAL to using (funcall (compile nil '(lambda () ...))) 2015-04-09T04:11:01Z drmeister: Yes 2015-04-09T04:11:23Z drmeister: I put in a test to see if it was going into an infinite recursive loop - but it doesn't happen. 2015-04-09T04:11:26Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:12:44Z drmeister: I'm not sure why that doesn't happen - it worries me. When you've told me to worry about something in the past and it didn't happen it meant I was doing something else wrong. 2015-04-09T04:13:27Z drmeister: But I get errors like I haven't specialized EVAL or FUNCTION-INFO on one type of environment or another. 2015-04-09T04:13:56Z drmeister: It just happens when I compile asdf.lisp or my format.lsp source file. 2015-04-09T04:14:29Z em quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-09T04:15:01Z drmeister: Some combination of top-level form and macrolet or symbol-macrolet is triggering the problem. Sorry I'm being vague. Non-local exits have been dominating my consciousness. 2015-04-09T04:15:12Z honkfestival quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T04:15:20Z beach: I understand. 2015-04-09T04:15:37Z beach: We'll get to the other problem once you fixed this one. 2015-04-09T04:17:22Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:19:40Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:22:27Z honkfestival joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:23:51Z beach: drmeister: I am working on type inference. And in order to get type inference, I need a good SUBTYPEP such as the one by Henry Baker. And to test SUBTYPEP I need a TYPEP that doesn't use SUBTYPEP, or at least not in a way that can lead to an infinite recursion. 2015-04-09T04:24:08Z pllx joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:24:14Z beach: drmeister: Do you know the origin of the Clasp/ECL version of SUBTYPEP? 2015-04-09T04:24:48Z Bike: if you find an implementation that actually uses baker's plan i'd be interested 2015-04-09T04:25:08Z zacts quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-09T04:25:10Z beach: For SUBTYPEP or for type inference? 2015-04-09T04:25:45Z drmeister: No idea. 2015-04-09T04:26:12Z Bike: subtypep. 2015-04-09T04:26:36Z beach: Bike: I take it SBCL is not using it? 2015-04-09T04:27:43Z Bike: i don't think so. i think sbcl uses (pseudo)classes to represent types. which is the approach i like, but then i haven't written a type inferencer. 2015-04-09T04:28:06Z drmeister: Oh boy - a whole new thing to learn about. 2015-04-09T04:28:25Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T04:28:52Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:28:57Z beach: drmeister: We should check the quality of Clasp/ECL SUBTYPEP some time. 2015-04-09T04:29:04Z nell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-09T04:29:10Z pillton: Can ACL2 solve your type problems beach? 2015-04-09T04:29:25Z beach: pillton: I don't know. 2015-04-09T04:29:49Z beach: pillton: There is also the question of performance, which Baker addresses in his paper. 2015-04-09T04:30:05Z hefner quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-09T04:30:10Z beach: pillton: Did you read it? The one about the Nimble type inferencer? 2015-04-09T04:30:33Z pillton: No not yet. It is on my todo list. 2015-04-09T04:30:40Z nell joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:31:08Z hefner joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:31:39Z beach: pillton: It like the data-flow approach because it fits the semantics of Common Lisp. But I worry about the backward inferencing and I don't know what to do about that yet. I saw a brief post by pkhuong who seemed to say that backward inferencing is inappropriate for Common Lisp. 2015-04-09T04:32:09Z dfinninger joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:32:49Z beach: Baker's writing style is interesting. He clearly shows that he has solved the problem, but even in 25 pages, he is able to hide the details sufficiently that it is hard to derive an implementation from it. 2015-04-09T04:33:26Z beach: Also, I can't use his approach directly, because he annotates Common Lisp source code, whereas I need to work at the HIR level. 2015-04-09T04:33:34Z Bike: lol. 2015-04-09T04:33:53Z Bike: i really wish publishing source would get normal in academia already. 2015-04-09T04:34:07Z beach: It's happening. 2015-04-09T04:34:24Z beach: There was an article in the last CACM about it. 2015-04-09T04:34:40Z beach: Now I forget who wrote it, but it is someone famous. 2015-04-09T04:34:41Z Bike: well, i don't work with computing machinery :p i should bug my boss to get github again... 2015-04-09T04:34:42Z pillton: beach: Really? In this day of intellectual property? 2015-04-09T04:35:27Z pillton: beach: The goal of a paper is to get accepted. 2015-04-09T04:35:49Z beach: pillton: Yeah. Me and a colleague cleaned up one international conference in the past by rejecting all papers that didn't publish enough information that their method could be re-implemented. 2015-04-09T04:36:05Z Bike: noice. 2015-04-09T04:36:17Z TacoCholby joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:36:20Z TacoCholby quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-09T04:37:02Z moei joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:37:06Z beach: pillton: I think conferences and journals should reject papers that don't have source. 2015-04-09T04:37:09Z Bike: the way sample code has been not normal in CS, of all things, is just really freakin bizarre. 2015-04-09T04:37:21Z TacoCholby joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:37:25Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-09T04:37:25Z TacoCholby quit (K-Lined) 2015-04-09T04:37:39Z beach: pillton: People who don't want to show source code have made the choice to get money rather than an academic record. 2015-04-09T04:37:40Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:37:52Z pillton: I am torn on the subject. 2015-04-09T04:38:26Z Bike: if nothing else there's papers that describe the algorithm in detail but don't give the coded version. 2015-04-09T04:38:27Z beach: pillton: How come? 2015-04-09T04:38:37Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:38:39Z Bike: which i'm guessing is w hat beach is dealing with re: baker. 2015-04-09T04:38:56Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-09T04:40:35Z Jubb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T04:41:10Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-09T04:41:28Z pillton: I think there is room for many different approaches. When it comes to humans, nothing is globally optimal. 2015-04-09T04:41:38Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-09T04:41:43Z kushal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-09T04:41:54Z Bike: we're not talking globally 2015-04-09T04:42:23Z pllx quit (Quit: ++) 2015-04-09T04:42:27Z kvsari quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-09T04:43:08Z pillton: Research need not be academically motivated. 2015-04-09T04:43:21Z beach: Sure. 2015-04-09T04:43:33Z beach: But publishing it is. 2015-04-09T04:43:47Z beach: To me it is clear. Publishing some result means convincing peers that it works. This implies that the peers have to be able to conduct the same experiment. 2015-04-09T04:44:06Z beach: And that pretty much implies giving the source code. 2015-04-09T04:44:14Z Bike: i've read a few old books that cite internal company journals. it is the worst thing. 2015-04-09T04:44:15Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:44:15Z pllx joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:44:17Z beach: Because the alternative would put too much burden on the peers. 2015-04-09T04:44:26Z kvsari joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:44:44Z pillton: Peer review is broken. 2015-04-09T04:45:20Z Bike: it's not peer review. just other people in the same field. 2015-04-09T04:45:51Z Bike: if you publish an algorithm without source code and you have source code you've made it harder for me to build off your work for no or poor reasons. 2015-04-09T04:45:51Z pillton: It relies on the assumption that the peers are experts. The notion of an expert in today's world is flawed. 2015-04-09T04:45:52Z beach: It definitely is, especially if people are not obliged to give enough information that the reviewers can figure out what has been accomplished. 2015-04-09T04:47:51Z Bike: i mean, it also affects peer review, but it's a broader problem. 2015-04-09T04:47:57Z pillton: Bike: In that case you don't use the work i.e. it doesn't get cited. 2015-04-09T04:48:48Z beach: Ah, found the ACM article. It's by shriram Krishnamurthi. 2015-04-09T04:49:03Z Bike: great, so now i do their whole thing independently, or what? 2015-04-09T04:49:41Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-09T04:50:02Z beach: "The Real Software Crisis: repeatability as a Core Value" CACM Volume 58 number 3. 2015-04-09T04:50:12Z beach: March 2015. 2015-04-09T04:50:51Z pillton: Independence is important. The medical and physics fields do it. 2015-04-09T04:51:01Z Bike: i'm in medicine. 2015-04-09T04:51:25Z Bike: i'm probably mostly annoyed because last monday i watched a presentation by my boss's friend in which he mentioned a computer model very similar to the one we use, and they were apparently developed pretty independently, and nobody thought this was a waste of time. 2015-04-09T04:52:14Z pillton: Hence human's not being globally optimal. 2015-04-09T04:52:40Z Bike: are aphorisms globally optimal 2015-04-09T04:52:40Z beach: It is perfectly fine with me if some people don't want to publish source code for commercial reasons. What I can't understand is why these people want some paper about it published then. 2015-04-09T04:53:35Z beach: They have chosen to make money out of their work. Why would they need a journal paper or a conference paper? 2015-04-09T04:54:13Z kvsari quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-09T04:54:25Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:54:38Z beach: I guess we could create conferences or journals where the presentations are just "ads" for products, but that's a different kind of conference or journal than I would be involved in. 2015-04-09T04:55:12Z Bike: science cred? 2015-04-09T04:55:18Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:55:35Z pillton: beach: People need to spread the risk. 2015-04-09T04:55:45Z kvsari joined #lisp 2015-04-09T04:55:57Z Bike: maybe someone told them they can't put patents on their CV 2015-04-09T04:56:00Z pillton: So you pursue business and academic careers simultaneously. 2015-04-09T04:56:38Z pillton: Bike: Is writing more than one book on the same subject a waste of time? 2015-04-09T04:57:08Z Bike: usually, yeah? 2015-04-09T04:57:26Z Bike: if there's not some flaw in the previous book, of course. 2015-04-09T04:57:30Z jasom: beach: http://metamodular.com/Software-engineering/developer-productivity.html <-- this was the article I had comments on 2015-04-09T04:57:45Z Bike: and that requires us to be able to read the previous book. i.e., the code. 2015-04-09T04:58:51Z beach: jasom: Oh, OK. And what was your objection again? 2015-04-09T05:02:54Z Zhivago: The algorithm they publish doesn't need to be performant, just correct enough to reproduce results. 2015-04-09T05:03:02Z Zhivago: Without that it's just not science. 2015-04-09T05:04:02Z hratsimihah quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-09T05:04:32Z NNaNDude joined #lisp 2015-04-09T05:04:37Z NaNDude quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-09T05:04:44Z hratsimihah joined #lisp 2015-04-09T05:05:12Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-09T05:05:56Z jasom: beach: That employers are obstructed by law from ensuring that they hire more productive developers 2015-04-09T05:06:31Z beach: jasom: Wow, really? How and in which country? 2015-04-09T05:06:42Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-09T05:07:00Z jasom: In the US, using an objective measure as a gateway to hiring opens you up to a discrimination lawsuit. 2015-04-09T05:07:34Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-04-09T05:07:44Z jasom: It is fairly well established at this point that using an IQ test, for example, is grounds for a lawsuit, as most IQ tests have biases against at least one protected class 2015-04-09T05:08:43Z Bike: hr would probably be pretty happy if they had a good objective measure of future productivity 2015-04-09T05:08:52Z beach: jasom: I can believe the thing about IQ test. 2015-04-09T05:08:54Z jasom: Bike: well yeah, that's another issue 2015-04-09T05:09:40Z jasom: another issue is that many large software firms are government contractors, and those are priced at least partly on person-hours, so hiring a more productive developer doesn't increase your profits significantly 2015-04-09T05:10:18Z Bike: beach: haha, 3/4 of the reasons given for not publishing code involve "proprietary". 2015-04-09T05:10:27Z beach: jasom: Yes, I know that one. I'll write an article about it some day. This is the situation of most "consulting companies", at least here. 2015-04-09T05:10:28Z Bike: in krishnamurthi's article, i mean. 2015-04-09T05:11:06Z beach: jasom: The clients of those companies have work to do. 2015-04-09T05:11:15Z beach: jasom: They don't know how much they are being had. 2015-04-09T05:11:18Z jasom: I have been told point-blank that hiring a 10x productive developer at 3x the cost would be a net-loss 2015-04-09T05:11:39Z arrubin quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-09T05:11:44Z jasom: because they couldn't bill at 3x the rate 2015-04-09T05:12:17Z beach: jasom: I know that the situation is different for these "consulting" companies. 2015-04-09T05:12:40Z jasom: beach: in the US it applies to nearly all defense related contracts too 2015-04-09T05:12:45Z pillton: jasom: If you believe in market forces then that company will eventually go out of business for not being productive. 2015-04-09T05:12:56Z beach: jasom: I feel sorry for the US. 2015-04-09T05:13:51Z jasom: pillton: in this case the people who approve the contracts are not the people who receive the product, nor the people that provide the money 2015-04-09T05:14:14Z jasom: pillton: that's not exactly a condition conducive to market correction 2015-04-09T05:15:36Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-04-09T05:18:39Z Zhivago: jasom: How about the button pressing latency test which has a strong correlation with IQ? :) 2015-04-09T05:18:40Z beach: jasom: I have started a book on the sorry state of the software industry. I'll incorporate everything you said in it. 2015-04-09T05:19:02Z Slothel: beach: How far along are you? I'd be interested in reading a little bit, if you care to share 2015-04-09T05:19:35Z beach: Slothel: Hold on. I'll check... 2015-04-09T05:19:47Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-09T05:19:53Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-09T05:22:16Z beach: Slothel: It's complicated. I have around 80 pages, but it's old material that is partially obsolete. I started a complete rewrite, but it has only 10 pages in it. 2015-04-09T05:22:41Z beach: Slothel: But I will keep your offer in mind. 2015-04-09T05:23:05Z Slothel: beach: Sure, no problem. I wouldn't mind reading the ten pages, but of course it's entirely up to you. I'm just bored at work 2015-04-09T05:23:24Z beach: Slothel: Heh, OK. It won't be right away. 2015-04-09T05:24:17Z pjb: drmeister: think about (setf (aref a i j k l) v) 2015-04-09T05:25:38Z jackc- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-09T05:25:50Z jackc- joined #lisp 2015-04-09T05:26:09Z beach: pjb: Why would he think about that? 2015-04-09T05:26:32Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-04-09T05:26:36Z Cooper__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-09T05:26:44Z Bike: he asked about why setf functions are ordered like how they are 2015-04-09T05:26:55Z Bike: aref is a good example of why, cos it's got a 7rest 2015-04-09T05:29:23Z Slothel: Is there any decent blogging software written in Lisp? I'm thinking of starting a blog (more like a journal really) and it would just be fun to use some lisp software 2015-04-09T05:31:36Z beach: pjb: It would help if you started such a comment by something like "With respect to your question about the argument order of SETF function, think about..." 2015-04-09T05:32:04Z pjb: Yes, probably. 2015-04-09T05:32:55Z pillton: Isn't (defun (setf my-place) (&key &allow-other-keys value)) sufficient? 2015-04-09T05:33:10Z jackdaniel: Slothel: nuclblog is pretty obscure, but really nice and simple 2015-04-09T05:33:15Z pjb: pillton: nope. 2015-04-09T05:33:40Z pjb: You want (defun (setf my-place) (new-value) new-value) at least. 2015-04-09T05:33:43Z pllx quit (Quit: ++) 2015-04-09T05:33:50Z Slothel: jackdaniel: Perfect, thanks :) 2015-04-09T05:33:59Z jackdaniel: Slothel: also, you may consider weblocks, but it's more like a box of parts you can build with, not a blog 2015-04-09T05:34:23Z jackdaniel: also Shinerama has his "reactive" (I hope i spell it correctly - never used it) framework 2015-04-09T05:34:39Z pillton: pjb: I mean to convince drmeister. 2015-04-09T05:34:41Z jackdaniel: which he uses for his blog/website 2015-04-09T05:34:44Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-09T05:35:26Z Slothel: jackdaniel: nuclblog looks like what I'm looking for. I want something really lightweight 2015-04-09T05:35:35Z jackdaniel: then it's a way to go 2015-04-09T05:36:56Z jackdaniel: Slothel: main repo https://github.com/slyrus/nuclblog, + one commit here https://github.com/dkochmanski/nuclblog (didn't get merged idk why), which fixes non-ssl blog bug 2015-04-09T05:37:38Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-09T05:37:55Z Slothel: jackdaniel: Thank you, that's actually an excellent suggestion. I'm gonna clone the repo when I get home, maybe I can help develop it 2015-04-09T05:38:08Z jackdaniel: gl hf :-) 2015-04-09T05:38:09Z Slothel: Though my previous attempts at open source were less than spectacular 2015-04-09T05:40:21Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-09T05:41:10Z loke joined #lisp 2015-04-09T05:41:55Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2015-04-09T05:43:09Z emma joined #lisp 2015-04-09T05:47:08Z dfinninger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T05:47:42Z dfinninger joined #lisp 2015-04-09T05:50:22Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-09T05:50:34Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-09T05:52:24Z dfinninger quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-09T05:52:57Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-09T05:55:21Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T05:57:39Z xinau joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:00:55Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-09T06:01:16Z x1n4u quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-09T06:01:38Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-09T06:04:10Z mateuszb quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-09T06:05:21Z loke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T06:07:13Z mateuszb joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:07:21Z pjb: beach: it is clear that some people in the academia use their time there to research and develop products that they intend to sell thru their company. I've seen professors having companies both in France and in the USA. 2015-04-09T06:08:13Z beach: pjb: That doesn't bother me the least. 2015-04-09T06:08:48Z beach: pjb: What bothers me is trying to get proprietary product publicity published as peer-reviewed research. 2015-04-09T06:09:21Z pjb: Then it should not be surprising if papers are written without divulging private intellectual property, be that of the professor or that of his university. US universities have a lot of patents. 2015-04-09T06:09:26Z Oddity joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:10:10Z pjb: And if you read patents, you can see that you don't learn anything from them: they're not scientific or technical documents, they're legal documents allowing lawyers to decide to whom the money should go. 2015-04-09T06:10:12Z beach: It is not surprising that such papers get written. It is surprising, even shocking, that I have colleagues who are willing to accept such papers as peer-reviewed research. 2015-04-09T06:10:38Z pjb: But everybody's in the loop. 2015-04-09T06:10:55Z pjb: I mean, everybody has rents and debt to pay. 2015-04-09T06:11:08Z pillton: I've found that the word "research" means different things to different people. 2015-04-09T06:11:46Z beach: That's why I qualified it with "peer-reviewed". 2015-04-09T06:12:23Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:12:57Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:14:45Z beach: Time to get to work! 2015-04-09T06:14:48Z beach left #lisp 2015-04-09T06:15:09Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:15:11Z pillton: beach: Checkout "The NIPS Experiment" on the way. 2015-04-09T06:16:28Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:16:28Z Mon_Ouie quit (Changing host) 2015-04-09T06:16:28Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:17:40Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:17:51Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:18:26Z kvsari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T06:18:27Z theos quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-09T06:19:05Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:19:05Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-04-09T06:19:05Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:19:29Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:22:18Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-09T06:23:09Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I'm immensely bored 2015-04-09T06:38:15Z admg joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:40:33Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:41:38Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-09T06:42:22Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:42:51Z admg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-09T06:43:05Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:43:17Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-09T06:44:09Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-09T06:47:23Z Harag1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T06:47:39Z PuercoPop: Slothel: there is also coleslaw (https://github.com/redline6561/coleslaw) 2015-04-09T06:47:41Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-09T06:50:49Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:51:19Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-09T06:54:10Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:54:12Z ElectricCoffee joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:55:26Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:56:37Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:56:42Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:57:57Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:58:18Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T06:59:05Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-04-09T06:59:35Z Slothel: Are there any real-world algorithms that are actually O(n * log2n) 2015-04-09T06:59:42Z Slothel: That seems extremely freaking slow 2015-04-09T07:00:36Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-09T07:00:59Z pillton: Slothel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Fourier_transform 2015-04-09T07:01:12Z pillton: It is pretty fast here! 2015-04-09T07:02:58Z pjb: There are a lot of algorithms that are O(nlog2n). 2015-04-09T07:03:14Z pjb: Almost all of them are… 2015-04-09T07:03:56Z Slothel: I guess it's not as bad as n^2 but it still seems pretty slow 2015-04-09T07:04:05Z Slothel: are there algorithms that are n^n? 2015-04-09T07:04:23Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-09T07:04:24Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-09T07:05:22Z wemeetagain quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-09T07:06:28Z SAL9000: Slothel: most good sort algorithms are O(nlogn) 2015-04-09T07:06:30Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T07:06:56Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-09T07:10:30Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-09T07:10:36Z Slothel: We're talking worst case here, not average right? 2015-04-09T07:11:08Z SAL9000: quicksort is worst case O(n^2) average case O(nlogn) 2015-04-09T07:11:22Z pranavrc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-09T07:11:23Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-09T07:11:37Z pillton: I think discrete optimization problems fall in to O(n^n). 2015-04-09T07:11:40Z SAL9000: heapsort is all cases O(nlogn) 2015-04-09T07:11:53Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-09T07:11:53Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-04-09T07:11:53Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-09T07:12:48Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: I've never had my username and project misspelled in that way before! 2015-04-09T07:13:39Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-04-09T07:13:41Z Shinmera: Slothel: What jackdaniel was trying to refer to is my Radiance framework, and in particular the Reader module I wrote for it. https://github.com/Shirakumo/reader an example of which can be seen here http://blog.tymoon.eu/ 2015-04-09T07:14:40Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: I'm sorry for that 2015-04-09T07:14:51Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: It's alright, I'm terrible with names too. 2015-04-09T07:15:13Z Slothel: Shinmera: Interesting.. I'll look over it when I'm finished with this book, but it looks promising. I've got like four more hours at work so I have much time to kill 2015-04-09T07:15:46Z Shinmera: Slothel: It's an extremely lightweight thing though. All you can do with it is post entries and tag them. If that's sufficient for you then it should be fine. 2015-04-09T07:17:28Z Slothel: Shinera: That's actually perfect for my needs 2015-04-09T07:17:32Z Shinmera: Also, since Radiance is not finished yet I haven't written down installation instructions yet. Mood at least tried things out for a bit, so it should 'just work'. 2015-04-09T07:18:01Z Slothel: Shinmera: Half the fun is figuring out how to install the damn thing ;) 2015-04-09T07:18:21Z Shinmera: Well, a lot of people don't consider that much fun, so I did try to minimise that. 2015-04-09T07:18:48Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-04-09T07:19:09Z Slothel: Shinmera: Is this something you are accepting collaboration on at all? 2015-04-09T07:19:25Z Shinmera: I'm very much open to feedback yes. 2015-04-09T07:20:19Z Slothel: Shinmera: Oh no, I meant like help with the code (sicne its hosted on github) If not its perfectly fine, but I've been looking for something to help code recently :P 2015-04-09T07:20:37Z Shinmera: If you find something to contribute, sure. 2015-04-09T07:20:53Z Shinmera: Radiance is large, and currently lacking documentation, so I'm not sure how easy it'll be to get into it though. 2015-04-09T07:21:10Z Shinmera: Improving Reader shouldn't be too hard though. 2015-04-09T07:21:17Z Slothel: Cool, well I'll keep it in mind. Im getting itchy fingers 'cause I need to code something. 2015-04-09T07:21:25Z Shinmera: Heh 2015-04-09T07:21:29Z Slothel: I'll dig around a bit and see if I can see anything obvious to contribute 2015-04-09T07:22:27Z Kanae quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-09T07:24:35Z paul0`` joined #lisp 2015-04-09T07:25:29Z pllx joined #lisp 2015-04-09T07:27:16Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-09T07:27:44Z paul0` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-09T07:28:56Z pllx quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-09T07:29:35Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-04-09T07:31:06Z Shinmera: Slothel: I added some instructions to the Reader and Radiance repos so you should be able to get things going for the most part. 2015-04-09T07:31:14Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T07:32:02Z Slothel: Shinmera: Thanks. That should help 2015-04-09T07:32:14Z faheem_: + 2015-04-09T07:32:26Z Slothel: Shinmera: Not that this is relevent but I'm so deathly bored that I'm re-reading the Google C++ style guide 2015-04-09T07:32:59Z Shinmera: In such dire times I usually resort to webcomics and blog entries to read. 2015-04-09T07:33:09Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-09T07:33:27Z Shinmera: The former of which I would have a bunch to recommend, and the latter of which I wrote some myself that might be interesting. 2015-04-09T07:34:31Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-09T07:35:05Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-09T07:35:05Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-04-09T07:35:05Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-09T07:35:45Z Slothel: Shinmera: I'm partial to blogs. Link? 2015-04-09T07:35:54Z Shinmera: You already have it! 2015-04-09T07:35:56Z Shinmera: http://blog.tymoon.eu/ 2015-04-09T07:36:19Z guaqua joined #lisp 2015-04-09T07:36:29Z Slothel: Oh. Heh. 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It cannot be used by the reader macro character #\(. 2015-04-09T10:48:28Z kephra: so there is no #\. readmacro 2015-04-09T10:48:33Z pjb: Nope. 2015-04-09T10:48:57Z kephra: thanks - this makes my head stop smoking ;-) 2015-04-09T10:48:59Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-09T10:49:02Z pjb: And if you wrote one, it wouldn't serve, as the lisp reader algorithm specifically processes tokens made of dots. 2015-04-09T10:49:08Z kephra: btw, i'm close to reader macros in my toy scheme 2015-04-09T10:49:35Z kephra: already have the two read tables, and logic - just missing the get- and set- methods 2015-04-09T10:49:57Z Zhivago: Eventually it will become clear that read-tables kind of suck. 2015-04-09T10:50:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-09T10:50:18Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-04-09T10:50:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-09T10:50:31Z kephra: Zhivago, what is better? 2015-04-09T10:51:01Z Zhivago: A poke in the eye with a blunt stick. 2015-04-09T10:51:14Z pjb: No, read tables don't suck. They could be used more intensively (therefore simplifying the reader algorithm). 2015-04-09T10:51:18Z Zhivago: Rather, read-tables are fine if you just want CL-like syntax. 2015-04-09T10:51:30Z Zhivago: Unless you have unicode. 2015-04-09T10:51:39Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-09T10:51:48Z pjb: Dispatching is an other question. 2015-04-09T10:51:49Z Zhivago: Or want to redefine how symbols work, or numbers, or ... 2015-04-09T10:51:55Z Zhivago: So, yeah, they suck pretty hard. 2015-04-09T10:52:06Z pjb: Which means you want less hard coded algorithms and more read table stuff. 2015-04-09T10:52:08Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-04-09T10:52:11Z larion joined #lisp 2015-04-09T10:52:30Z pjb: You're aspired by their beauty. 2015-04-09T10:52:46Z Zhivago: The answer is to avoid trying to do anything interesting with them, since they won't handle it well -- just have magical prefix characters to kick into your little parser. 2015-04-09T10:53:14Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-09T10:53:18Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-09T10:53:21Z Zhivago: They were an expedient hack back in the dark ages. 2015-04-09T10:54:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-09T10:55:32Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-04-09T10:56:14Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T10:59:08Z Guest57013: - 2015-04-09T10:59:24Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-09T10:59:32Z jackdaniel: \/dark magic from ancient times./ ;-) 2015-04-09T11:00:38Z pjb: Nope. New technology not sufficiently deployed yet. 2015-04-09T11:01:03Z dkcl quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-09T11:01:21Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-04-09T11:01:26Z pjb: Zhivago: calling reader macros an expedient hack back in the dark ages, is like calling rockets an expedient hack back in the dark ages and wanting to go back to dragon driving instead. 2015-04-09T11:01:29Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-09T11:01:57Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-09T11:02:04Z jackdaniel: dark magic sounds like a good fit for this description :p 2015-04-09T11:02:15Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-09T11:03:04Z Guest57013 left #lisp 2015-04-09T11:03:17Z Zhivago: There's a reason why we don't use rockets for public transportation. :) They suck. 2015-04-09T11:04:19Z SAL9000: going BACK to dragon driving? that sounds like going forward, rather. less pollution :-) 2015-04-09T11:04:33Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-09T11:05:03Z splittist: If your rockets are sucking, aren't you doing it wrong? 2015-04-09T11:05:30Z Zhivago: They might be ramjets, I guess. 2015-04-09T11:05:39Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 2015-04-09T11:05:40Z pjb: Nope. sucking rockets are of the best kind: they can fly supersonically in athmosphere and water, without producing a shock wave. 2015-04-09T11:05:41Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-04-09T11:06:22Z SAL9000: splittist: non-spacefaring rockets suck in fuel from the atmosphere 2015-04-09T11:06:45Z pjb: nls space faring rockets too. 2015-04-09T11:07:00Z SAL9000: sorry, not fuel, oxidiser. 2015-04-09T11:07:02Z kephra: http://kephra.de/rokot/ <- *shameless plug* when talking about rocket science *blush awk, not lisp* 2015-04-09T11:07:13Z pjb: there's more than one atom of hydrogen per cubic meter in space to be used for propulsion. 2015-04-09T11:16:02Z Fullma quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-09T11:19:04Z s1n4 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-09T11:20:40Z Sgeo_ joined #lisp 2015-04-09T11:21:18Z Sgeo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-09T11:21:41Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-09T11:24:55Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T11:25:14Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-09T11:25:20Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-04-09T11:28:11Z Posterdati: pjb: you can collect them with Bussard collectors 2015-04-09T11:28:41Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-09T11:29:08Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-04-09T11:29:13Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-09T11:29:28Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-09T11:30:13Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-04-09T11:31:27Z echo-area quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-09T11:33:30Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-09T11:35:14Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-09T11:35:22Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-09T11:39:39Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-09T11:44:20Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-04-09T11:46:02Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-09T11:47:37Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2015-04-09T11:50:28Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-09T11:51:28Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-09T11:55:54Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-09T11:56:09Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-09T11:56:30Z ElectricCoffee quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-09T11:58:20Z cadadar left #lisp 2015-04-09T11:58:22Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-09T11:58:25Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:00:16Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-09T12:01:22Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:01:40Z cadadar left #lisp 2015-04-09T12:04:03Z beach joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:04:12Z beach: gafe 2015-04-09T12:04:15Z beach: Good afternoon everyone! 2015-04-09T12:04:48Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-09T12:04:59Z beach: Here is my current best solution to the problem of organizing ASDF systems and associated "test" systems: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146909 2015-04-09T12:06:38Z beach: The non-test module XX is defined by two systems. The first system called XX-SUPPORT contains everything that can be built either in the host or in the target system. 2015-04-09T12:07:23Z ynniv joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:07:34Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:07:41Z beach: The second system called XX contains code that might not be possible to compile and load in the host system, but it can be built normally on the target system. 2015-04-09T12:08:01Z beach: In this case, the second system contains a definition of CONS. 2015-04-09T12:09:16Z arbscht quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-09T12:09:23Z beach: The test module is also in two parts. The first part is defined by the XX-EXTRA system. It contains components that need to be loaded on the host after XX-SUPPORT has been loaded, in order for system XX to be loadable on the host. 2015-04-09T12:10:34Z beach: The second part of the test module is the real test system. It adds the system XX-EXTRA as a dependency of the system XX, and it defines the XX-TEST system that contains the code for testing system XX. 2015-04-09T12:10:41Z wglb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T12:10:53Z beach: Let me know what you think. 2015-04-09T12:11:03Z splittist: I like the test (: 2015-04-09T12:11:30Z beach: Only the test? :( 2015-04-09T12:12:03Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T12:12:05Z splittist: Is there really something in asdf called asdf/component:component-sideway-dependencies? 2015-04-09T12:12:26Z beach: There must be. I checked that my code works. 2015-04-09T12:12:58Z beach: But I don't know whether it's part of the published protocol for ASDF. 2015-04-09T12:13:05Z beach: So it might break in the future. 2015-04-09T12:13:09Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-09T12:14:13Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-09T12:14:55Z beach: I suppose I should verify that with Fare. 2015-04-09T12:14:58Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:14:59Z splittist: sideway isn't really a word, as far as I know. 2015-04-09T12:15:19Z Xach: neither is nreconc 2015-04-09T12:18:23Z beach: splittist: Is it at least clear what I meant to accomplish, and how it is accomplished? 2015-04-09T12:20:09Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T12:20:38Z beach: I guess not. :( 2015-04-09T12:20:42Z beach: Oh well. 2015-04-09T12:21:22Z arbscht joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:21:26Z splittist: beach: the goal is to be able to test the system on the host. You do this by (dynamically) adding supporting infrastructure to the XX system when loading the test system. ? 2015-04-09T12:21:44Z beach: Indeed. Thanks! 2015-04-09T12:22:53Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-09T12:23:22Z clop joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:24:15Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:24:58Z zacts quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-09T12:25:31Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:27:53Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:29:28Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T12:29:40Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:30:33Z beach: Anyway, back to work. 2015-04-09T12:30:35Z beach left #lisp 2015-04-09T12:33:41Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:35:02Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:35:16Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:36:23Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2015-04-09T12:38:57Z pjb: splittist: you can't complain: you forced your language on colonized countries, and you don't have a prescriptive academy. 2015-04-09T12:39:14Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-09T12:39:41Z kaiyin joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:39:46Z kaiyin: is there anything wrong with this? https://gist.github.com/kindlychung/ed42886cea4c51ed0bdb every time i call M-x copy-code-as-rtf emacs says: search failed: \\par\\pard 2015-04-09T12:39:53Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:40:09Z pjb: kaiyin: you should ask in #emacs. 2015-04-09T12:40:16Z pjb: Here we wouldn't know, we only know Common Lisp. 2015-04-09T12:40:31Z kaiyin: ok 2015-04-09T12:40:37Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:40:39Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:40:50Z moei joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:42:21Z arrubin joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:42:26Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T12:43:07Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:43:18Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T12:43:52Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:47:06Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-09T12:47:53Z splittist: pjb: (a) I did no such thing (and in any event will take no lessons from a language that uses 'le fooding'); (b) I assure you I can complain, and have been known to do so; (c) it was not a complaint but an observation. 2015-04-09T12:48:34Z pjb: splittist: such an expressions is forbidden by several laws in public contexts. 2015-04-09T12:52:22Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T12:53:41Z pt1_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T12:53:55Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-04-09T12:54:14Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-09T12:55:24Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-09T12:55:27Z jewel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-09T12:59:42Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-04-09T12:59:44Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-04-09T13:00:44Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T13:00:52Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-09T13:04:06Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-09T13:04:14Z thodg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-09T13:05:12Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-09T13:06:07Z thodg joined #lisp 2015-04-09T13:06:47Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-04-09T13:07:40Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-04-09T13:07:55Z arrubin quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I've got clx. 2015-04-09T14:53:55Z JuanDaugherty: does ql do X? 2015-04-09T14:54:11Z Zhivago has set mode -o Zhivago 2015-04-09T14:54:28Z comodo_dragon left #lisp 2015-04-09T14:54:30Z jrm: JuanDaugherty: Good question. 2015-04-09T14:55:06Z dlowe: I may be wrong, but I thought clx is all you needed? It's a native CL interface to X 2015-04-09T14:55:28Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-09T14:55:52Z jrm: K, thanks. I'll try #quicklisp. 2015-04-09T14:56:01Z JuanDaugherty: Xach is not marked away so prolly will respond eventually 2015-04-09T14:56:15Z gendl joined #lisp 2015-04-09T14:58:22Z brucem quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-09T14:58:53Z brucem joined #lisp 2015-04-09T14:59:10Z Xof: clx should be all you need 2015-04-09T14:59:14Z Xof: (I am not Xach) 2015-04-09T15:00:50Z johnchalekson quit (Quit: #UNJACKABLE #UNHACKABLE 10^10^78 https://twitter.com/hashtag/piruumak9nikkkiuupunchuu2tan2cuumayouuufruittownuuuuleduuoju2cuiceuuveltkodedboltuuuuhard?f=realtime&src=hash44... 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-09T18:35:22Z pjb: Well, quick-apropos does: (print-systems (ql-dist:provided-systems t) pattern :sort t) 2015-04-09T18:35:33Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-04-09T18:35:57Z pjb: So it's not the same as system-apropos, indeed. 2015-04-09T18:37:53Z larion joined #lisp 2015-04-09T18:39:08Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-04-09T18:40:33Z emaczen: How do I create a pair as a dotted list where the second element is a list? 2015-04-09T18:41:16Z ehu: emaczen: '(a . (b c d)) ? 2015-04-09T18:41:30Z ehu: (which is the same as '(a b c d)) 2015-04-09T18:42:00Z Xach: a dotted list is a list terminated by an atom that is not nil. 2015-04-09T18:43:18Z gklimowicz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-09T18:43:34Z emaczen: ehu: yeah, so you can't really do it then... 2015-04-09T18:43:52Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-09T18:43:59Z ehu: emaczen: what can't you do? 2015-04-09T18:44:05Z ehu: a cons is a pair 2015-04-09T18:44:24Z ehu: (cons 'a '(b c d)) --> '(a b c d) 2015-04-09T18:44:26Z ehu: and 2015-04-09T18:44:29Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-09T18:44:37Z ehu: (cons 'a 'b) --> '(a . b) 2015-04-09T18:44:40Z emaczen: ehu: actually let me try again -- I think it will actually work but just looks different since it won't be printed with a "." in between 2015-04-09T18:45:52Z superbil quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-09T18:46:34Z emaczen: ehu: thanks, I was just confused for a second about how it "looked" 2015-04-09T18:47:35Z ehu: emaczen: yw. 2015-04-09T18:47:45Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-09T18:48:29Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T18:49:00Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-09T18:49:06Z dfinninger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T18:49:19Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-09T18:49:26Z pllx joined #lisp 2015-04-09T18:51:32Z superbil joined #lisp 2015-04-09T18:51:56Z pjb: emaczen: what are you saying? Of course, it will be printed with a dot in between! Look: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:print-conses (cons 'a (list 'b 'c 'd))) 2015-04-09T18:53:09Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-09T18:53:18Z monod quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-09T18:57:38Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-09T19:02:08Z slimetree quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-09T19:02:41Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-04-09T19:07:28Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-04-09T19:07:54Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-09T19:11:01Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-09T19:11:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-04-09T19:11:01Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-09T19:22:19Z Posterdati: pjb: hi 2015-04-09T19:22:25Z Posterdati: froggey: hi 2015-04-09T19:23:13Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-09T19:25:52Z shka quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-04-09T19:26:35Z shka joined #lisp 2015-04-09T19:32:27Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2015-04-09T19:32:44Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T19:33:58Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-09T19:35:16Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-09T19:35:17Z vlnx quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-09T19:36:18Z shka joined #lisp 2015-04-09T19:37:04Z vlnx joined #lisp 2015-04-09T19:39:50Z monod joined #lisp 2015-04-09T19:40:32Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-09T19:43:24Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-09T19:43:57Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-04-09T19:44:05Z froggey: Posterdati: hi 2015-04-09T19:47:22Z johnchalekson quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-09T19:48:05Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T19:49:25Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2015-04-09T19:49:44Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-04-09T19:50:02Z dfinninger joined #lisp 2015-04-09T19:51:13Z gko__ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-09T20:00:02Z dfinninger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T20:00:14Z dfinninger joined #lisp 2015-04-09T20:01:00Z dfinninger left #lisp 2015-04-09T20:02:27Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-09T20:02:28Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-09T20:02:59Z larion joined #lisp 2015-04-09T20:15:14Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-09T20:21:42Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-09T20:23:01Z larion joined #lisp 2015-04-09T20:23:43Z dbx joined #lisp 2015-04-09T20:25:00Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-04-09T20:28:53Z Posterdati: froggey: did you fix everything? 2015-04-09T20:33:25Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-09T20:34:18Z Jubb quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-09T20:34:18Z Harag1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-09T20:34:28Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-09T20:35:00Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-04-09T20:35:16Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-09T20:36:26Z koz_ joined #lisp 2015-04-09T20:37:03Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-04-09T20:37:27Z koz_: This may seem like an odd question: Is (the/any) Common Lisp compiler type-aware *at compile time*? I'm pretty sure that at least one implementation is, but I'm not sure. 2015-04-09T20:39:05Z dlowe: what does type-aware mean? 2015-04-09T20:40:07Z koz_: dlowe: That the compiler knows the type of a variable, and can throw errors based on that (for instance, if you try to pass a variable holding an atom to a function expecting a list). 2015-04-09T20:40:18Z JJaskologist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-09T20:40:51Z dlowe: koz_: it's not necessarily an error in the sense of halting compilation, but many compilers will spit out some warnings. 2015-04-09T20:41:10Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-09T20:41:15Z dlowe: the warnings are more reliable when you declare more type information 2015-04-09T20:41:15Z koz_: So the answer is 'yes, possibly, they are'? 2015-04-09T20:41:26Z dlowe: the answer is 'yes, definitely for some' 2015-04-09T20:41:42Z koz_: OK. But I'm guessing the standard is silent on this topic? 2015-04-09T20:41:51Z koz_: (i.e. this is all extra) 2015-04-09T20:42:00Z dlowe: Yes. Declarations are promises to the compiler for optimization, not contracts 2015-04-09T20:42:18Z dlowe: So nothing about the types is enforced during compile time 2015-04-09T20:42:48Z koz_: Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up. 2015-04-09T20:42:59Z larion joined #lisp 2015-04-09T20:45:04Z dlowe: A theoretically possible utility I've been thinking about implementing is something that will try and type-check all the functions in the current image to see if the proper types are connecting 2015-04-09T20:45:05Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-09T20:45:30Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-09T20:45:44Z koz_: Wouldn't that just be a Hindley-Milner (sp?) type of deal? 2015-04-09T20:46:06Z dlowe: so you could load up your program, run the checker from inside the image, and it would infer as much as could be inferred. 2015-04-09T20:46:10Z Bicyclidine: cl types are too complicated for hm 2015-04-09T20:46:28Z Bicyclidine: i think beach is writing a cl inferencer at the moment 2015-04-09T20:46:58Z dlowe: You just want to make sure that during a function call, the value passed in is a subtype of the value accepted. Accepted values default to the T type. 2015-04-09T20:47:34Z dlowe: but it'd definitely be tied to the implementation 2015-04-09T20:47:48Z dlowe: and you'd have to fix all the implementation type mismatches or the noise would drown out your own program :) 2015-04-09T20:48:18Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-04-09T20:48:30Z koz_: OK, that clears things up a lot for me - thanks. 2015-04-09T20:49:38Z koz_: Bicyclidine: Why do you say that CL types are too complex for HM? If Haskell types are OK, why not CL ones? 2015-04-09T20:50:59Z dlowe: (deftype foo (satisfies #'my-own-special-predicate)) 2015-04-09T20:51:29Z duggiefresh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-09T20:51:31Z akkad: :symbol syntax came from CL? 2015-04-09T20:51:36Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-04-09T20:51:43Z dlowe: I've never understood the utility of such a type, but you can declare it 2015-04-09T20:51:52Z koz_: Ah, I see. 2015-04-09T20:52:33Z futpib quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-09T20:53:17Z dlowe: check out the type definition for square-matrix http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/m_deftp.htm 2015-04-09T20:53:41Z dlowe: (I totally misremember deftype syntax, because I never use it) 2015-04-09T20:54:12Z koz_: Yeah, that makes sense. 2015-04-09T20:54:19Z koz_: That... is quite the type. 2015-04-09T20:55:15Z koz_: Although this type wins for wtf-ery: http://dpaste.com/1WZFDV9 2015-04-09T20:55:48Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-09T20:56:16Z pos-lispos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T20:57:07Z Posterdati quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-04-09T20:57:34Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-04-09T20:57:48Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-09T20:59:47Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-09T21:00:20Z ynniv quit (Quit: ynniv) 2015-04-09T21:04:05Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-04-09T21:04:16Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2015-04-09T21:06:07Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-09T21:06:18Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-09T21:06:59Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-09T21:09:00Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-09T21:10:12Z monod quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-09T21:15:36Z dbx quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-09T21:15:56Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-04-09T21:17:13Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-09T21:18:43Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-09T21:19:03Z mood quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T21:19:12Z mood joined #lisp 2015-04-09T21:24:02Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-09T21:30:32Z nell joined #lisp 2015-04-09T21:30:52Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-09T21:31:35Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-04-09T21:33:10Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-09T21:33:10Z wheelsucker_ quit 2015-04-09T21:33:14Z pgomes joined #lisp 2015-04-09T21:33:24Z Jaskologist joined #lisp 2015-04-09T21:34:50Z lpaste quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-09T21:35:20Z ircbrowse quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-09T21:36:17Z Blkt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T21:36:17Z fe[nl]ix quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T21:36:23Z Blkt joined #lisp 2015-04-09T21:36:26Z fe[nl]ix joined #lisp 2015-04-09T21:36:27Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-09T21:36:53Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-09T21:37:01Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-09T21:38:24Z pgomes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-09T21:38:37Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-09T21:38:47Z ircbrowse joined #lisp 2015-04-09T21:38:47Z lpaste joined #lisp 2015-04-09T21:42:13Z andre_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T21:42:24Z posterdati300 joined #lisp 2015-04-09T21:42:34Z fragamus joined #lisp 2015-04-09T21:45:11Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-09T21:48:43Z posterdati300 quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-04-09T21:53:38Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-09T21:54:29Z sheilong left #lisp 2015-04-09T21:56:18Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T21:59:23Z Posterdati quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-04-09T22:00:38Z duggiefresh quit 2015-04-09T22:01:06Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2015-04-09T22:01:56Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-09T22:02:43Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-09T22:03:59Z larion joined #lisp 2015-04-09T22:05:16Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-09T22:09:09Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2015-04-09T22:09:49Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-09T22:15:37Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-04-09T22:16:32Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2015-04-09T22:16:32Z tessier joined #lisp 2015-04-09T22:18:12Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-04-09T22:21:22Z DrWat|ZZZzzz is now known as DrWat 2015-04-09T22:22:22Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Any ideas? 2015-04-10T02:45:40Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-04-10T02:46:17Z Xach has never tried parenscript 2015-04-10T02:46:19Z chu quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-10T02:47:42Z chew23 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-10T02:53:35Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-04-10T02:59:48Z koz_ joined #lisp 2015-04-10T03:07:35Z koz_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-10T03:08:25Z badkins quit 2015-04-10T03:09:21Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-10T03:12:26Z {[]}grant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T03:12:51Z {[]}grant joined #lisp 2015-04-10T03:13:59Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-10T03:14:39Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-10T03:16:33Z pnpuff quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-10T03:17:31Z loke: Hello Xach 2015-04-10T03:17:50Z loke uses parenscript to build Couchdb view definitions (which are in javascript) 2015-04-10T03:17:54Z Xach: hi loke 2015-04-10T03:23:58Z theseb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-10T03:24:47Z loke: Xach: What does your employer (Clozure associates?) do? 2015-04-10T03:26:20Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-10T03:28:35Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-04-10T03:30:16Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-04-10T03:33:50Z _leb joined #lisp 2015-04-10T03:34:02Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-04-10T03:34:04Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-10T03:35:14Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T03:35:40Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-10T03:36:31Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-10T03:37:32Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-04-10T03:38:37Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-04-10T03:38:56Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-10T03:39:32Z loke: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss097_w.htm 2015-04-10T03:39:50Z sheilong left #lisp 2015-04-10T03:40:06Z Bike: Hah. 2015-04-10T03:41:38Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-10T03:49:08Z pillton: G'day Bike. 2015-04-10T03:49:58Z Bike: yo 2015-04-10T03:50:08Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-04-10T03:50:25Z matthavard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T03:50:40Z matthavard joined #lisp 2015-04-10T03:51:38Z Slothel joined #lisp 2015-04-10T03:57:20Z matthavard quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-10T03:58:13Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T03:58:14Z spacebat`: good to know the things were fixed 2015-04-10T03:58:25Z alokbeniwal joined #lisp 2015-04-10T04:00:41Z Bike: Anyone use napa-fft3? 2015-04-10T04:01:00Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-04-10T04:03:51Z pillton: I did for a bit. 2015-04-10T04:05:07Z Bike: i'm pretty new to fourier analysis, so i'm certainly confusing something, but... does it gives you results backwards? an fft of a sine wave has a peak not where i expected it, but that far from the end. 2015-04-10T04:05:57Z pillton: DC is the first value. 2015-04-10T04:06:04Z spacebat`: emaczen: there's a lot of parenscript here at work and I've not seen any generated symbols matching [A-Z]_[A-Z] 2015-04-10T04:07:06Z Bike: I mean, Wikipedia says the nth element of the fft is the sinusoid with frequency n/N. but in the fft i got from napa has it at (N-n)/N. 2015-04-10T04:08:15Z pillton: Assuming you are doing a complex to complex transformation then you should have two peaks. 2015-04-10T04:09:04Z Bike: real to complex. 2015-04-10T04:09:15Z Bike: and there's no peak at the opposite position. 2015-04-10T04:09:41Z Bike: wait. i take that back, there is. 2015-04-10T04:10:31Z Bike: okay, yeah, i messed up. sorry about that. 2015-04-10T04:12:16Z Bike: Why are there two peaks? 2015-04-10T04:14:04Z pillton: Due to Euler's formula. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s_formula 2015-04-10T04:14:32Z pillton: See the equation for sin(x). 2015-04-10T04:14:33Z jleija quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-10T04:15:23Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-04-10T04:16:01Z Bike: So do I take indices above N/2 as negative frequencies...? 2015-04-10T04:16:36Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-04-10T04:16:39Z pillton: Yeah. (mod frequency length-of-signal) 2015-04-10T04:17:35Z pillton: The output is circular shifted. 2015-04-10T04:17:40Z Bike: i mean, i have 8192 samples in, 8192-long ft out, and peaks at 13 and 8192-13. 2015-04-10T04:17:56Z pillton: You use mod to "undo" the circular shift. 2015-04-10T04:18:24Z Bike: mod by what, though? 2015-04-10T04:18:35Z pillton: The length of the signal: 8192. 2015-04-10T04:19:08Z pillton: (= (- 8192 13) (mod -13 8192)) 2015-04-10T04:20:44Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2015-04-10T04:20:47Z Bike: I'm sorry, I'm really not getting this. why is the 13 negative? why not (= (- 8192 8179) (mod -8179 8192)), which is also true? 2015-04-10T04:21:42Z pillton: http://www.fftw.org/fftw3_doc/What-FFTW-Really-Computes.html#What-FFTW-Really-Computes 2015-04-10T04:21:46Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-04-10T04:22:14Z Bike: okay, thanks. 2015-04-10T04:22:18Z vr-rm_ quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-04-10T04:22:27Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-10T04:27:51Z pillton: Bike: By the way, always take note of the scaling/normalisation. It is not standard across implementations. 2015-04-10T04:28:10Z Bike: yeah, i'm still not sure how to get an actual amplitude out... 2015-04-10T04:28:16Z beach joined #lisp 2015-04-10T04:28:28Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-04-10T04:28:34Z pillton: Bike: Take the absolute value of the complex number. 2015-04-10T04:28:51Z Bike: well, right, but then how i scale that back to what i know the amplitude is. 2015-04-10T04:29:51Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-04-10T04:29:53Z Bike: ...well, it's half of 8192, probably. 2015-04-10T04:30:10Z pillton: napa-fft takes the :scale keyword argument. 2015-04-10T04:31:34Z pillton: The amplitudes for the two peaks obtained when doing F(sin(x)) or F(cos(x)) should be 0.5. 2015-04-10T04:31:38Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-10T04:32:03Z pillton: G'day beach. 2015-04-10T04:32:24Z Bike: i'm actually working on measured data, and the amplitude is one ish. 2015-04-10T04:32:29Z Bike: i'll poke at it more tomorrow. thanks. 2015-04-10T04:37:21Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-10T04:42:43Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-10T04:44:02Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-10T04:45:14Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-04-10T04:50:35Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-10T04:51:13Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-10T04:57:56Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-04-10T04:59:41Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-10T05:00:36Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-04-10T05:00:45Z clop joined #lisp 2015-04-10T05:00:47Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T05:01:19Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-10T05:02:24Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-10T05:02:29Z quazimod1 quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-10T05:03:56Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-04-10T05:04:11Z chu_ quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-10T05:08:10Z jleija quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-10T05:08:43Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-04-10T05:15:28Z beach: So rtoym gave me the right to push to his GitHub repository containing the ANSI test suite. Now what should I do? Just remove my fork of it and ignore the pull request I sent him? 2015-04-10T05:15:49Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-10T05:16:32Z pillton: I would keep it just in case you have something contentious. 2015-04-10T05:17:35Z beach: So then, if I make a local modification, should I push it to both his and mine? 2015-04-10T05:21:13Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2015-04-10T05:21:27Z beach: I guess that's what I will do. GIT and GitHub will sort it out. 2015-04-10T05:21:47Z pillton: I guess you have to if you consider the case where someone finds your fork before the official repository. 2015-04-10T05:21:51Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-10T05:22:10Z beach: Yeah. That's why I considered removing mine. 2015-04-10T05:22:12Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-10T05:22:24Z beach: But it's OK. It's just a minor inconvenience. 2015-04-10T05:22:40Z beach: I will just make a few updates from time to time. 2015-04-10T05:24:09Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-10T05:27:49Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-10T05:28:14Z beach: OK, I checked that everything works. You (i.e. #lisp participants) can now start submitting additional material to the ANSI test suite by sending me pull requests. :) 2015-04-10T05:33:45Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-10T05:35:42Z _leb quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-04-10T05:38:05Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-10T05:39:17Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T05:42:22Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-04-10T05:42:26Z mateuszb joined #lisp 2015-04-10T05:42:57Z ggole_ is now known as ggole 2015-04-10T05:44:59Z futpib quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-10T05:47:05Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-10T05:51:24Z arrubin quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-10T05:53:49Z theseb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-10T05:55:40Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-04-10T05:56:12Z emaczen left #lisp 2015-04-10T05:57:36Z x1n4u joined #lisp 2015-04-10T05:59:42Z Shinmera: beach: You can just add his as a new remote to your local copy and push to both. 2015-04-10T05:59:48Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-10T05:59:58Z {[]}grant quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-10T06:00:32Z beach: Right. That's what I did. 2015-04-10T06:00:36Z renopt quit (Changing host) 2015-04-10T06:00:36Z renopt joined #lisp 2015-04-10T06:00:43Z xinau quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-10T06:02:38Z Shinmera: Github also has a notion of mirrors, but it seems those are only for companies and at manual request. 2015-04-10T06:03:54Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-10T06:07:23Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-10T06:07:52Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-10T06:09:42Z slimetree joined #lisp 2015-04-10T06:10:04Z slimetree: oE@a*.7;Ux+G}QK 2015-04-10T06:10:31Z Shinmera: Nice password 2015-04-10T06:10:47Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-10T06:12:09Z slimetree: hah, oops 2015-04-10T06:12:32Z slimetree: does anyone have any clue why this isn't working? http://hastebin.com/malexeximo.lisp 2015-04-10T06:12:47Z slimetree: like if you can (setf 3), can you save in a variable and setf it later 2015-04-10T06:13:12Z Shinmera: You can do that with symbol macros, but that won't "save" the place. 2015-04-10T06:13:40Z Shinmera: SETF is a macro, and it needs to know the form of the place to know how to set it. 2015-04-10T06:13:55Z Bike: hastebin doesn't seem to be working. and no, not really. there was something on lisp machines to do something like that but it was before setf got so sophisticated. 2015-04-10T06:14:45Z slimetree: oh. just saw paste.lisp.org in topic 2015-04-10T06:15:04Z slimetree: all right, thanks 2015-04-10T06:16:11Z slimetree quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-10T06:20:30Z {[]}grant joined #lisp 2015-04-10T06:21:21Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-10T06:22:23Z pjb: Cannot retrieve URL: http://hastebin.com/malexeximo.lisp / 503 Service Unavailable 2015-04-10T06:22:23Z pjb: 2015-04-10T06:22:44Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-10T06:24:07Z pillton: slimetree: You can do (labels (((setf getval) (value k) (setf (gethash k x) value))) ...). 2015-04-10T06:24:28Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T06:24:41Z Shinmera: He's already gone. 2015-04-10T06:24:50Z pillton: Nice. 2015-04-10T06:26:48Z harish joined #lisp 2015-04-10T06:28:28Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-10T06:29:23Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-10T06:31:37Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-04-10T06:32:56Z guicho quit (Quit: さようなら) 2015-04-10T06:34:55Z beach left #lisp 2015-04-10T06:35:15Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-10T06:35:18Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-10T06:36:49Z kraehe joined #lisp 2015-04-10T06:39:58Z kephra quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-10T06:43:30Z rak[1] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-10T06:44:12Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T06:49:24Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-10T06:50:45Z rak[1] joined #lisp 2015-04-10T06:51:38Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-10T06:52:00Z spacebat`: is there any way to find the global value of a special variable, inside the dynamic scope of a binding to another value? 2015-04-10T06:52:42Z spacebat`: I don't really need this for anything, just curious 2015-04-10T06:56:17Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-10T06:56:46Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-10T06:57:45Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-04-10T07:05:24Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-04-10T07:06:14Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-04-10T07:13:56Z ered quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-10T07:14:15Z d4ryus_ is now known as d4ryus 2015-04-10T07:15:12Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-10T07:16:54Z Pastaf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T07:16:58Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-10T07:18:19Z ered joined #lisp 2015-04-10T07:18:23Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-10T07:21:33Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-04-10T07:22:48Z lieven: perhaps a (locally (declare...)) 2015-04-10T07:24:27Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-10T07:24:47Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-10T07:27:14Z arenz joined #lisp 2015-04-10T07:27:51Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-04-10T07:30:00Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-10T07:33:40Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-10T07:35:21Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-10T07:38:20Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-10T07:38:46Z billstclair: spacebat`: no portable way. Implementations will have stacks of values that you can get to if you write low-level code. 2015-04-10T07:41:02Z Zhivago: Well, may have. 2015-04-10T07:41:19Z billstclair: I sit corrected. :) 2015-04-10T07:41:19Z Zhivago: Swapping the special with a temporary local and back is a common approach. 2015-04-10T07:41:30Z Shinmera: You could do something like (let ((*foo* (cons val *foo*))) ..) if you want to inspect the binding stack. 2015-04-10T07:41:38Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-10T07:41:50Z Zhivago: In which case there'll be no stack of values to inspec. 2015-04-10T07:41:59Z vdamewood quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-04-10T07:42:24Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-04-10T07:44:35Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-10T07:47:34Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-10T07:50:31Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-10T07:53:23Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-04-10T07:54:41Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T07:55:15Z pjb: or rather: (let ((saved *foo*) (*foo* 42)) … saved …) 2015-04-10T07:55:25Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-04-10T07:56:50Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-04-10T08:01:50Z pgomes joined #lisp 2015-04-10T08:04:01Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-10T08:06:36Z gabriel_laddel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T08:07:25Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-04-10T08:11:33Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-04-10T08:15:10Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-10T08:17:36Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-10T08:19:55Z jtz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-10T08:20:55Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-10T08:22:18Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-10T08:24:19Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-10T08:24:50Z jtz joined #lisp 2015-04-10T08:25:08Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-10T08:25:23Z mj-0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-10T08:25:41Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-10T08:26:07Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-10T08:27:42Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-10T08:32:37Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-10T08:33:36Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-10T08:34:25Z vr-rm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-10T08:36:47Z css106420_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-10T08:40:26Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-10T08:42:01Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-10T08:42:25Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2015-04-10T08:43:34Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-10T08:44:05Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-10T08:44:48Z faheem_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-10T08:50:23Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-10T08:51:25Z echo-are` joined #lisp 2015-04-10T08:52:03Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-10T08:52:19Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-10T08:55:57Z echo-area quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-10T08:57:11Z echo-are` is now known as echo-area 2015-04-10T08:59:11Z pranavrc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-10T08:59:39Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-10T08:59:43Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:00:31Z Squick joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:00:48Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:00:48Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-04-10T09:00:48Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:00:48Z Squick: hi 2015-04-10T09:00:53Z d4ryus_ joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:02:37Z Squick: hi, everyone, i am new on lisp, and trying to get some help. if anyone can reply me on private message it would be nice. Thank's 2015-04-10T09:02:48Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-04-10T09:02:57Z pjb: We prefer to give help publicly. 2015-04-10T09:03:04Z pjb: We hunt in pack. 2015-04-10T09:03:15Z Squick: Okay 2015-04-10T09:03:30Z pjb: Don't be shy. 2015-04-10T09:03:50Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-10T09:04:00Z Squick: Cause, in fact, I don't know a lot about it, and a friend asked me to do something for him. 2015-04-10T09:04:17Z pjb: You can find a lot of material on http://cliki.net/ 2015-04-10T09:04:35Z Squick: Thank's 2015-04-10T09:05:21Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T09:05:40Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:13:50Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T09:16:01Z agam quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-10T09:16:36Z agam joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:18:12Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-10T09:18:40Z Squick_ joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:18:41Z Squick_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-10T09:23:31Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-10T09:23:34Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:23:42Z madnificent joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:24:11Z koz_ joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:29:31Z jdz: i want to learn lisp. i do this for my friend, honest! 2015-04-10T09:29:40Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-10T09:29:55Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:30:13Z jackdaniel: sounds legit ;) 2015-04-10T09:30:18Z pjb: Hey teachers! I gave him this answer: (defun organise (u v) (let ((a (first u)) (b (second u)) (c (first v)) (d 2015-04-10T09:30:18Z pjb: (second v))) (cons (list a d) (list c b)))) 2015-04-10T09:30:39Z jackdaniel: or even better- my friend want to learn lisp, not me of course, but where should he start? 2015-04-10T09:30:42Z jdz: but what was the question? 2015-04-10T09:32:15Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-04-10T09:32:23Z agumonkey quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-10T09:32:35Z netroby quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-10T09:32:51Z pjb: to define a function (organize '(A B) '(C D)) -> ((A D) C B) 2015-04-10T09:33:00Z vsync quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-10T09:33:07Z Niac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T09:33:58Z loke: pjb: CONS? 2015-04-10T09:34:03Z pjb: Yes. 2015-04-10T09:34:14Z pjb: ((A D) C B) == ((A D) . (C B)) 2015-04-10T09:34:19Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:34:20Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:34:23Z SAL9000: (defun organise ((a b) (c d)) `((,a ,d) ,c ,b)) 2015-04-10T09:34:34Z loke: pjb: Phew. I don't have to hand in my Lisp programmer card. :-) 2015-04-10T09:34:59Z loke: SAL9000: defun does not do destructuring :-) 2015-04-10T09:35:00Z pjb: That's why I told him to rather ask in #lisp. But nooo, those newbies always want it private. 2015-04-10T09:35:04Z SAL9000: loke: awww 2015-04-10T09:35:15Z vsync joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:35:20Z pjb: (defun organize (&rest args) (destructuring-bind ((a b) (c d)) …)) 2015-04-10T09:35:38Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2015-04-10T09:36:55Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:37:22Z loke: pjb: I /ignore people sending private requetss 2015-04-10T09:37:54Z loke: There are pattern matching libraries to use in Lisp too :-) 2015-04-10T09:38:25Z Shinmera: I still want to know what Thank is. 2015-04-10T09:38:36Z dim: I failed to realize you could nest lists in destructure-bind 2015-04-10T09:38:58Z Shinmera: dim: Have at ya http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_de.htm 2015-04-10T09:39:09Z pjb: oh yes, it's very nice. 2015-04-10T09:39:11Z vr-rm joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:39:13Z loke: Shinmera: Thank is a misspelled tank. A tank is a kind of bubble that can contain stuff you don't usually want to touch. Like poop. 2015-04-10T09:39:31Z Shinmera: loke: No no, he said "Thank is", but never finished the sentences. 2015-04-10T09:41:25Z pranavrc quit 2015-04-10T09:42:47Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:43:30Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:44:41Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:44:57Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:44:59Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T09:47:40Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-10T09:48:45Z kraehe is now known as kephra 2015-04-10T09:49:01Z Squick quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-10T09:49:19Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-10T09:49:44Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:50:42Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-10T09:51:17Z mburke quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-10T09:53:35Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:55:51Z splittist: "It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is." 2015-04-10T09:56:55Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2015-04-10T09:59:53Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-10T10:01:40Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T10:01:58Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:02:40Z Harag1 quit (Quit: Harag1) 2015-04-10T10:02:41Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:04:07Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:04:36Z francogrex: hi I am trying to make an sbcl executable using (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "program.exe" :executable t) it's fine, but how it is possioble to add a toplevel function for example :toplevel 'fun, where(defun fun () (format t "bla bla")) that after executing doesn't automaticall quit the sbcl image? 2015-04-10T10:08:18Z pjb: And what would you want to do when this toplevel function completes? 2015-04-10T10:08:39Z francogrex: pjb: interact with the image 2015-04-10T10:08:47Z pjb: How? 2015-04-10T10:08:48Z francogrex: other functions to execute etc 2015-04-10T10:08:56Z mburke joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:09:13Z francogrex: whenn by having the propt ready => * (do stuff) 2015-04-10T10:09:17Z pjb: Then call those other functions! 2015-04-10T10:09:19Z francogrex: prompt 2015-04-10T10:09:24Z pjb: Then print this prompt! 2015-04-10T10:09:46Z francogrex: the other functions are already in the image 2015-04-10T10:09:55Z francogrex: calling the prompt is trickt 2015-04-10T10:09:55Z pjb: If you don't want YOUR function to be the toplevel, but you want to keep the normal REPL toplevel, then do not set your function as the toplevel function! 2015-04-10T10:09:59Z pjb: You can use: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Initialization-and-Exit-Hooks 2015-04-10T10:10:13Z francogrex: ok 2015-04-10T10:10:14Z MoALTz__ joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:13:28Z MoALTz_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-10T10:14:29Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:20:08Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T10:22:15Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-10T10:23:56Z []}grant{ joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:24:10Z {[]}grant quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-10T10:29:02Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-10T10:29:22Z zeroish joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:29:32Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:29:52Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:31:29Z netroby joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:32:12Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-10T10:32:42Z jackdaniel: cross-compilation is plain evil/horrible :,( 2015-04-10T10:33:09Z MightyJoe quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-10T10:33:19Z pjb: jackdaniel: not with first class environments. Ask beach about them. 2015-04-10T10:33:44Z MightyJoe joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:34:12Z jackdaniel: he's not around i suppose, but if I'll remember I'll do it ,þ anyway, I'm talking about what we have now, autotools including 2015-04-10T10:34:36Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:34:45Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: http://metamodular.com/environments.pdf 2015-04-10T10:34:53Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: thanks 2015-04-10T10:35:12Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:35:36Z smull quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-10T10:35:56Z smull joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:36:02Z pjb: It may be smarter to use a virtual machine. Thanks qemu! 2015-04-10T10:36:17Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:36:41Z jackdaniel: pjb: that's what I did after all 2015-04-10T10:37:10Z jackdaniel: I'm building ecl on emulated versatile, and I'll copy resulting binaries with libs to buildroot image 2015-04-10T10:37:24Z jackdaniel: from archlinuxarm° 2015-04-10T10:38:40Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-10T10:38:48Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-10T10:40:43Z zadock quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-10T10:42:03Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-10T10:44:35Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:46:19Z jtz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-10T10:46:46Z jtz joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:48:53Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-10T10:49:19Z francogrex quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T10:50:42Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:53:20Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:53:25Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:53:33Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-10T10:54:17Z jtz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-10T10:55:43Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:55:58Z monod joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:56:11Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:56:35Z jtz joined #lisp 2015-04-10T10:58:25Z monod quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-10T11:04:15Z mateuszb quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-10T11:12:19Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-10T11:17:05Z Posterdati: froggey: hi 2015-04-10T11:18:34Z []}grant{ is now known as {[]}grant 2015-04-10T11:19:00Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-10T11:22:41Z poster-lispos joined #lisp 2015-04-10T11:22:44Z poster-lispos: hi 2015-04-10T11:22:51Z Posterdati: hi 2015-04-10T11:24:52Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2015-04-10T11:25:00Z Xach: loke: clozure.com has that info 2015-04-10T11:25:28Z loke: Is it related to CCL? 2015-04-10T11:25:33Z loke: Ah 2015-04-10T11:25:36Z loke: Now I see 2015-04-10T11:27:16Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-10T11:29:04Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-10T11:29:22Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T11:29:48Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-10T11:30:22Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-10T11:31:30Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-10T11:33:07Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T11:33:46Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-04-10T11:34:04Z {[]}grant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T11:34:15Z Xach: yes 2015-04-10T11:34:17Z {[]}grant joined #lisp 2015-04-10T11:34:19Z Xach: so related 2015-04-10T11:34:57Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-04-10T11:35:49Z []}grant{ joined #lisp 2015-04-10T11:38:05Z []}grant{ is now known as {}grant 2015-04-10T11:38:52Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-04-10T11:39:10Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-10T11:39:23Z alokbeniwal quit 2015-04-10T11:41:46Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-10T11:44:07Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-10T11:44:38Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-04-10T11:47:33Z guicho quit (Quit: さようなら) 2015-04-10T11:50:40Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-10T11:53:30Z pnpuff quit 2015-04-10T11:54:02Z C6248 joined #lisp 2015-04-10T11:55:43Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-10T11:57:12Z ecraven quit (Quit: brb) 2015-04-10T11:58:22Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T11:58:39Z C6248 left #lisp 2015-04-10T12:00:20Z faheem_ joined #lisp 2015-04-10T12:00:53Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-10T12:06:43Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-10T12:08:23Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-10T12:09:25Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-10T12:11:28Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-04-10T12:11:33Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-10T12:13:32Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-10T12:14:01Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-10T12:14:49Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-10T12:17:03Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-10T12:19:20Z rudi joined #lisp 2015-04-10T12:19:50Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-10T12:25:01Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-10T12:27:17Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-10T12:27:49Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-10T12:28:20Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-10T12:28:21Z kp666 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-10T12:28:58Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-04-10T12:38:51Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-04-10T12:40:22Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-04-10T12:43:49Z netroby quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T12:46:00Z netroby joined #lisp 2015-04-10T12:50:15Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-10T12:53:09Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-10T12:58:23Z monod joined #lisp 2015-04-10T13:00:40Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-10T13:08:51Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-10T13:09:48Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-10T13:12:07Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-10T13:12:11Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-04-10T13:12:29Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-10T13:12:51Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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First loop sets i to 5 in order to test the end condition. 2015-04-10T15:06:24Z clop2: aha 2015-04-10T15:07:12Z Bike: clhs 6.1.2.1.1 2015-04-10T15:07:12Z specbot: The for-as-arithmetic subclause: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_abaa.htm 2015-04-10T15:07:30Z clop2: is there a way to rewrite it so that it doesn't continue to iterate after reaching the final value? 2015-04-10T15:07:31Z Bike: to is an inclusive limit, so it's not allowed to just stop at 0, i think. 2015-04-10T15:09:20Z a2015 joined #lisp 2015-04-10T15:09:40Z Posterdati quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-04-10T15:09:46Z Bike: i don't know how to do that. worst case scenario you could do (loop for i from -10 by 5 when (= i 0) do (loop-finish)) or something. 2015-04-10T15:09:56Z poster-lispos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T15:10:09Z pjb: (loop for i from -10 to 0 by 5) 2015-04-10T15:10:32Z Bike: that is... what they did already 2015-04-10T15:10:48Z pjb: clop2: you have to choose: is it a final value or does the loop continue? 2015-04-10T15:11:54Z pjb: clop2: anyways in general specifying types in lisp is badass. 2015-04-10T15:13:14Z smokeink quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-10T15:13:19Z Bike: Is that the word you meant to use? 2015-04-10T15:14:33Z pjb: Bike: yes. It says: I'm better than you dam compiler.. 2015-04-10T15:14:52Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-10T15:14:58Z scharan joined #lisp 2015-04-10T15:15:06Z Bike: i mean, usually "badass" is a positive term which does not seem to be what you meant 2015-04-10T15:15:40Z pjb: https://www.google.fr/search?q=badass 2015-04-10T15:15:49Z pjb: I don't feel the definition is that positive. 2015-04-10T15:16:14Z ehu: the compiler's type derivation was correct where I wasn't on more than one occasion. 2015-04-10T15:16:50Z pjb: Hence the badassity of telling the compiler what to do with his derivation. 2015-04-10T15:17:03Z Bike: well, whatever. clop2, pjb's right in that using a type like (integer -10 0) is kind of useless, i'm guessing you're doing something else? 2015-04-10T15:18:40Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-10T15:20:19Z beach joined #lisp 2015-04-10T15:20:28Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2015-04-10T15:21:04Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T15:21:46Z Sgeo_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-10T15:21:55Z beach: clop2: It would appear that the implementation you use is behaving incorrectly. 2015-04-10T15:22:11Z fe[nl]ix_: hi beach 2015-04-10T15:22:49Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-10T15:23:43Z beach: There is a test in the ANSI test suite for this case: http://paste.lisp.org/+35DQ 2015-04-10T15:24:28Z ggole: What is the implementation supposed to do, increment a temp and test that, then assign to the actual variable? 2015-04-10T15:24:43Z beach: Yes. That's what SICL LOOP does. 2015-04-10T15:25:15Z ggole: Hmm, interesting edge case. 2015-04-10T15:25:21Z beach: CLISP seems to do it right. 2015-04-10T15:25:29Z Bike: sbcl doesn't 2015-04-10T15:25:30Z clop2: i tried it on ccl and sbcl and they both gave me the warning 2015-04-10T15:25:40Z clop2: so then i figured i'd ask here :) 2015-04-10T15:26:14Z beach: ECL works as well. 2015-04-10T15:26:17Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-04-10T15:26:31Z alusion quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-10T15:26:55Z beach: clop2: You did the right thing (asking here, that is). You should submit a bug report. 2015-04-10T15:26:58Z clop2: another question: if I make a string with make-array and then fill in its characters, but the array is longer than I really need, is there an efficient way to just get a leading substring of it? 2015-04-10T15:27:32Z beach: clop2: You want to shorten the existing array or create a new one? 2015-04-10T15:28:00Z clop2: ideally i want to shorten the array, pass it to another function (which won't modify it), then re-lengthen it again, without any consing 2015-04-10T15:28:16Z beach: clhs adjust-array 2015-04-10T15:28:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_adjust.htm 2015-04-10T15:28:19Z ggole: Why not pass the array and the bounds of the part that you need? 2015-04-10T15:28:43Z clop2: ooooh, write-string takes &key start end 2015-04-10T15:28:52Z clop2: that looks perfect 2015-04-10T15:29:16Z ehu: clop2: displaced arrays are an option too. 2015-04-10T15:29:51Z ehu: re-use your existing array as a displaced array 2015-04-10T15:30:10Z ehu: so the caller only "sees" the short string 2015-04-10T15:31:16Z crichter` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T15:31:28Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-10T15:31:35Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-10T15:31:47Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-10T15:32:40Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-10T15:32:51Z beach: Does SBCL make use of the ANSI test suite? 2015-04-10T15:35:12Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-10T15:36:45Z beach: I guess I should ask such questions in #sbcl. 2015-04-10T15:37:22Z Bike: i don't think it does, could be wrong thoug... 2015-04-10T15:37:47Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-10T15:38:46Z Cymew quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-10T15:39:23Z beach: If so, I should ask the maintainers why at some point. Maybe they think there is something wrong with it. 2015-04-10T15:40:14Z matthavard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-10T15:40:32Z a2015 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-10T15:40:32Z Bike: well i think the tests that come with sbcl are mostly to verify that the system is working correctly. when they break it's something like "threads don't work on BSD", not "format output is nonconformant" which is a different kind of issue. 2015-04-10T15:40:51Z beach: Indeed. 2015-04-10T15:41:02Z ehu: beach: many implementations do, but not all agree with the tests which have been specified. 2015-04-10T15:41:08Z ehu: so, some disable subsets. 2015-04-10T15:41:46Z beach: I can see that. I removed some tests that were obviously wrong, for instance DO NIL in LOOP. 2015-04-10T15:48:06Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-10T15:48:39Z a2015 joined #lisp 2015-04-10T15:49:34Z vsync- joined #lisp 2015-04-10T15:50:35Z a2015 quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-10T15:51:04Z PuercoPop: why is do nil wrong? is it eliminated? 2015-04-10T15:51:25Z beach: DO has to be followed by compound forms. 2015-04-10T15:52:01Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-10T15:52:09Z beach: unconditional::= {do | doing} compound-form+ ... 2015-04-10T15:53:31Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-04-10T15:57:12Z beach: Actually, I didn't remove the tests. I replaced the DO by (PROGN). 2015-04-10T15:57:17Z a2015 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T12:29:42Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2015-04-22T12:29:42Z 2015-04-22T12:29:42Z names: ccl-logbot przl_ eudoxia selat killmaster Jaskologist nyef vaporatorius Ukari k-dawg intinig przl manuel__ zadock rszeno yrk Harag attila_lendvai yeticry pt1 Karl_Dscc Ethan- whartung c74d mj-0 sdothum stepnem joneshf-laptop gravicappa fsvehla quazimodo nowhereman_ bjorkintosh theos chu remi`bd d4ryus__ Tristam mega1 pranavrc zacharias RenRenJuan replcated redeemed wooden_ marsjaninzmarsa schoppenhauer |3b|` angavrilov arenz ggole ASau Cymew munksgaard 2015-04-22T12:29:42Z names: zeitue marvi sunwukong` balle peterhil ehu mvilleneuve mishoo jdz mrSpec nell QualityAddict alusion jumblerg dmiles_afk sigjuice gigetoo smokeink wemeetagain {0}grant WaREX pillton Vutral keen_______ _sjs Petit_Dejeuner Longlius Plazma BlueRavenGT jimmie_ anunnaki MoALTz Patzy __main__ Slothel jackc- antgreen White_Flame Qudit314159 d4gg4d trig-ger bb010g joast DeadTrickster Kruppe jocuman reb` pyon khisanth_ rtra brucem moei fe[nl]ix_ fikusz gko hlavaty 2015-04-22T12:29:42Z names: xificurC emma AntiSpamMeta rtoym pjb Adlai aap fragamus jlarocco vsync DrCode Natch flip214 hellome zeroish faheem_ nightfly decent rvchangue_ specbot JuanDaugherty xan_ jasom MrWoohoo jtz oconnore yauz clog sharkz zhuyue joshe voidlily troydm tristero Bike Walex albino agumonkey Oddity johs josteink lifenoodles Colleen nopf ferada dxtr farhaven eazar001 mateuszb egp___ peccu les akkad dilated_dinosaur dkcl XachFu Jubb pchrist karswell lemoinem sword 2015-04-22T12:29:42Z names: MightyJoe vert2_ Tordek yang nydel edgar-rft doppioslash Oladon thoto chrnybo kanru eMBee bipt suguriu arrdem Posterdati kjeldahl rk[1] GuilOooo sytse kushal SHODAN scymtym foom Xof setheus honkfestival ivan\ Zhivago thomas dfox mingvs gniourf ivan4th AeroNotix gabot djinni`_ ThePhoeron housel mathrick_ mtd_ mburke_ funnel yorick zyoung_ sivoais aeth froggey j_king spockokt H4ns tsumetai` Ralt lonjil copec kbtr hitecnologys sellout joga alex6407 alpha- kini 2015-04-22T12:29:42Z names: CrazyEddy dim p_l stopbyte seg mood teiresias zbigniew_ vlnx_ srcerer tokenrove lieven tkd Zotan shifty musegarden smull john-mcaleely Subfusc rj-code C-Keen sbryant TeMPOraL ahungry ssake__ sfa_ jsnell_ clop rotty schjetne pederindi kephra drmeister ecraven alchemis7 tuturto agam jeaye someone easye pok_ Neet wenincode guaqua` sepi gz brent80_plow renopt TristamWrk ramus theBlackDragon ircbrowse lpaste @fe[nl]ix Blkt superbil arbscht phadthai hratsimihah 2015-04-22T12:29:42Z names: NNaNDude samebchase tokik abbe xristos hq1 ``Erik swflint SAL9000 wolf_mozart arrsim PuercoPop girrig tessier minion gensym aerique metaf5 cibs tomaw antoszka eagleflo Borbus jayne RazWelles j0ni klltkr_ Fade qlkzy yeltzooo9 finnrobi_ ineiros sjl jackdaniel mikaelj z0d bytecrawler edran_ stux|RC-only ck_ s_e NhanH victor_lowther splittist cpt_nemo endou________ diginet drdo K1rk larme kalzz dlowe Takumo zymurgy zickzackv eak vhost- newcup sulky isoraqathedh 2015-04-22T12:29:42Z names: misv ozzloy axion Odin- backupthrick Tuxedo GGMethos cmbntr dsp_ capitaomorte` oGMo motumla_ Rudolph-Miller_ luis Cheery sshirokov brandonz justinmcp nitrix galdor phf viaken nitro_idiot p_l|backup Neptu renard_ ft redline6561 trn danlentz cods nisstyre ssake bege quasisane roscoe_tw hyoyoung billstclair nicdev dan64 rvirding cojy_ aksatac ggherdov daimrod dfrank jrm snafuchs cross moomin-aba___ _death Mandus Intensity trigen The_third_man gabc 2015-04-22T12:30:07Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T12:30:09Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-04-22T12:31:55Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-22T12:32:07Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-22T12:33:43Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-22T12:35:24Z fragamus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-22T12:36:58Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-22T12:38:36Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-22T12:43:27Z Baggers joined #lisp 2015-04-22T12:43:43Z Baggers quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-22T12:45:26Z Baggers joined #lisp 2015-04-22T12:45:59Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-22T12:46:05Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T12:46:50Z edk joined #lisp 2015-04-22T12:47:20Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-22T12:47:22Z Baggers quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-22T12:49:42Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-22T12:50:10Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-04-22T12:50:20Z freehck: hello people 2015-04-22T12:50:26Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-04-22T12:52:01Z freehck: I have a little problem: I'd like to create the object `cell', and would like its fields were bound to the appropriate elements of arrays defined in object `grid'. How can I do it? 2015-04-22T12:52:47Z przl_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-22T12:53:03Z freehck: Now I've written a function `cell (grid index)' which creates a new instance with type cell and fills its slots with the appropriate elements from `grid' 2015-04-22T12:53:49Z freehck: But the problem is I want to set cells in the way like (setf (accessor-func (cell grid index)) new-value) 2015-04-22T12:54:34Z freehck: And if I create a new instance of cell, the values in the array wont be changed. 2015-04-22T12:54:50Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T12:55:07Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-22T12:58:55Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-22T12:58:59Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-22T12:59:07Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-04-22T13:00:10Z nyef: So, rather than having CELL take a copy of the index within the grid, have it keep track of the grid and the index, and use AREF internally? 2015-04-22T13:01:39Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T13:02:02Z freehck: Hm... It's an idea. 2015-04-22T13:03:27Z Baggers joined #lisp 2015-04-22T13:03:33Z Baggers quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-22T13:03:42Z freehck: I can define a new generic for this... Something like (defgeneric convergence ((grid grid2d) (i index)) ...) 2015-04-22T13:04:17Z xinau joined #lisp 2015-04-22T13:04:48Z luis is bummed he couldn't attend this year's ELS 2015-04-22T13:05:02Z freehck: But won't it conflict with another generic function `convergence' that applied to other list of arguments? 2015-04-22T13:05:06Z luis: had to go to a silly team building event, ahrg. 2015-04-22T13:05:29Z freehck: nyef: 2015-04-22T13:05:35Z dlowe: freehck: probably. The signatures have to match. You could put the other convergence into another package, though. 2015-04-22T13:06:08Z fe[nl]ix_: luis: while your boss was having fun at the ELS 2015-04-22T13:07:02Z freehck: dlowe: even despite the other function is applied to 1 argument? 2015-04-22T13:07:10Z freehck: it's sad if it's true. 2015-04-22T13:07:51Z dlowe: freehck: you can make the generic function have an optional argument if you want 2015-04-22T13:08:17Z dlowe: stylistically, I prefer different operations to have different names 2015-04-22T13:08:35Z dlowe: even if the same name could be used to describe different operations 2015-04-22T13:09:08Z freehck: so I cannot have 2 generics with the same name... 2015-04-22T13:09:34Z freehck: but can't I really create an alias for a place? 2015-04-22T13:09:50Z freehck: all I think now is pointers in C. 2015-04-22T13:09:58Z dlowe: Sure, used (defun (setf accessor-func) ...) 2015-04-22T13:10:07Z dlowe: or define-setf-expander 2015-04-22T13:10:11Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-22T13:11:04Z fe[nl]ix_: dlowe: don't be cruel 2015-04-22T13:11:22Z freehck: dlowe: And how it'll help me with this: (setf (accessor-func (cell grid index)) new-value) 2015-04-22T13:11:55Z luis: fe[nl]ix_: my boss(es) were at the silly event too :) 2015-04-22T13:12:03Z dlowe: it would look more like (setf (accessor-func cell grid index) new-value) 2015-04-22T13:12:27Z freehck: Gotcha. 2015-04-22T13:12:51Z freehck: Not a very beautiful variant, but it'd work. 2015-04-22T13:14:16Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-04-22T13:14:44Z Zhivago: You may be confusing generic functions and methods. 2015-04-22T13:15:28Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T13:15:28Z freehck: Zhivago: what do you mean? 2015-04-22T13:15:52Z Zhivago: (defmethod a ((b c)) ...) (defmethod a ((d e)) ...) 2015-04-22T13:16:05Z Zhivago: There is only one generic function here -- #'a 2015-04-22T13:16:12Z freehck: yep 2015-04-22T13:17:02Z freehck: The question was: (defgeneric gen ((name type)) ...) and (defgeneric gen ((n1 t1) (n2 t2)) ...) 2015-04-22T13:17:23Z freehck: 2 different generics in the same time. 2015-04-22T13:17:46Z freehck: *2 different generic functions in the same time 2015-04-22T13:17:54Z freehck: with the same name 2015-04-22T13:18:16Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-04-22T13:19:56Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T13:20:17Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T13:20:25Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-04-22T13:22:46Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-04-22T13:22:56Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-22T13:23:08Z fluter: Zhivago: Hi 2015-04-22T13:23:13Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-22T13:23:17Z fluter: You are here. :p 2015-04-22T13:23:24Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-22T13:24:47Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T13:25:50Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-22T13:26:12Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-22T13:27:53Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-22T13:28:30Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-22T13:28:57Z freehck: stop 2015-04-22T13:29:35Z freehck: Why don't I easily define a grid class with an array of cells?! 2015-04-22T13:29:45Z xiaoguo joined #lisp 2015-04-22T13:29:47Z freehck: So I could get any cell in any moment. 2015-04-22T13:29:52Z freehck: And setf it. 2015-04-22T13:30:13Z freehck: Oh, I feel I'm tired a bit. ) 2015-04-22T13:30:14Z fluter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-22T13:30:56Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-22T13:31:08Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-22T13:31:17Z dlowe: er, you can? 2015-04-22T13:31:28Z freehck: I can. 2015-04-22T13:32:46Z freehck: I've just defined grids with numerous of array slots, which correspond to different cell parameters 2015-04-22T13:33:00Z dlowe: (defclass grid () (cells :accessor cells-of :initform (make-array (list 50 50)))) (defun (setf grid-cell) (new-value grid row col) (setf (aref (cells-of grid) row col) new-value)) 2015-04-22T13:33:19Z freehck: It was the way this kind of programs are written in our institute. 2015-04-22T13:33:35Z freehck: dlowe: yes, this is what i think about right now. 2015-04-22T13:34:02Z freehck: hm... what is the difference between elt and aref? 2015-04-22T13:34:09Z dlowe: elt only works on sequences 2015-04-22T13:34:34Z dlowe: 1d arrays are vectors, which are sequences, but 2d arrays are not 2015-04-22T13:34:43Z fe[nl]ix: and AREF only works on arrays 2015-04-22T13:34:54Z freehck: em... there're 2d arrays in common lisp? 2015-04-22T13:34:58Z dlowe: mmhm 2015-04-22T13:35:24Z freehck: i missed something very important? 2015-04-22T13:35:56Z dlowe: there are ARRAY-DIMENSION-LIMIT-d arrays in common lisp 2015-04-22T13:36:12Z dlowe: which on my system is 4611686018427387901 dimensions 2015-04-22T13:36:21Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-22T13:36:23Z dlowe: that's probably sufficient. 2015-04-22T13:36:56Z freehck: cool 2015-04-22T13:37:12Z fe[nl]ix: freehck: CL has native multi-dimensional arrays, e.g. matrices 2015-04-22T13:37:15Z freehck: I'm gonna use it right now. ) 2015-04-22T13:37:24Z fe[nl]ix: stored in row-major order 2015-04-22T13:38:51Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T13:39:00Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-04-22T13:39:17Z freehck: Should programmer be interested in how it is stored? I'd rather use just indexes. 2015-04-22T13:39:39Z freehck: btw, can I use negative indexes to refer elements in array? 2015-04-22T13:39:51Z freehck: it would be so cool 2015-04-22T13:40:01Z fe[nl]ix: no you can't 2015-04-22T13:40:06Z Zhivago: You can write an accessor that uses mod ... 2015-04-22T13:40:55Z freehck: thank you, community! :) 2015-04-22T13:41:05Z intinig quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-22T13:41:11Z the_real_intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-22T13:42:38Z hellome quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T13:43:37Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-22T13:43:51Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-22T13:44:35Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-22T13:44:47Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-04-22T13:46:19Z oleo: hello :) 2015-04-22T13:46:27Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-04-22T13:46:46Z fe[nl]ix: hi oleo & Fare 2015-04-22T13:51:29Z oleo: sup fe[nl]ix 2015-04-22T13:57:21Z antgreen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-22T13:58:54Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-04-22T13:59:09Z fe[nl]ix: oleo: just saying hi 2015-04-22T13:59:57Z oleo: fe[nl]ix: me too 2015-04-22T14:00:48Z dkwjdies joined #lisp 2015-04-22T14:01:47Z munksgaard quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-22T14:03:21Z dkwjdies quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-22T14:03:38Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-22T14:03:54Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-22T14:04:56Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-22T14:08:11Z xiaoguo quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-22T14:08:36Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-04-22T14:08:49Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-22T14:09:47Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-22T14:10:57Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-22T14:12:41Z Fare: fe[nl]ix, hi. Are you in London? 2015-04-22T14:12:52Z Fare: couldn't come this year. Hoping for next year. 2015-04-22T14:13:06Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-22T14:13:11Z p_l managed to nearly get lost near london 2015-04-22T14:17:20Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-04-22T14:17:49Z p_l: always check if the train goes to right place if travelling to Luton airport xD 2015-04-22T14:17:58Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-22T14:18:16Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-04-22T14:19:08Z Fare: with cheap flights, it can be more expensive to go from luton to london than from luton to some distant city in europe... 2015-04-22T14:19:39Z ristur joined #lisp 2015-04-22T14:19:51Z devll joined #lisp 2015-04-22T14:22:10Z ristur quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-22T14:22:20Z tmh_ joined #lisp 2015-04-22T14:22:24Z jdz: Fare: tentative location for next year ELS is Krakow, Poland 2015-04-22T14:23:45Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-04-22T14:23:51Z Fare: I'll gladly come back to Krakow 2015-04-22T14:24:04Z Fare: can you have it just before or after the opera festival? :-) 2015-04-22T14:24:32Z jdz: you'll have to people who make those kind of decisions :) 2015-04-22T14:25:38Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T14:27:02Z p_l: mrSpec: hear that? 2015-04-22T14:27:07Z p_l: xD 2015-04-22T14:27:44Z fe[nl]ix: Fare: nope, I just returned to Zurich 2015-04-22T14:28:13Z p_l: Fare: low costs however are less nice to travel with than the expensive train, IMHO 2015-04-22T14:28:18Z fe[nl]ix: I don't have time for a vacation now, even though I would have loved to visit London 2015-04-22T14:28:24Z tmh_ quit (Changing host) 2015-04-22T14:28:24Z tmh_ joined #lisp 2015-04-22T14:28:35Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-22T14:29:12Z p_l: I managed to stick some sight seeing before flight 2015-04-22T14:29:20Z emaczen: How can I obtain the compiled C sources from ECL? 2015-04-22T14:29:35Z Ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-22T14:29:44Z fe[nl]ix_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-22T14:29:49Z Zhivago: I think there's an option not to delete them. 2015-04-22T14:29:55Z Fare: I was traveling the preceding and next weekends and had nothing to present. Would have been a bad time to come. 2015-04-22T14:30:01Z Fare: emaczen: make 2015-04-22T14:30:32Z p_l: there was some option to its ASDF exts to create C code, but tgat was in the past 2015-04-22T14:30:37Z Fare: c::builder something 2015-04-22T14:31:06Z emaczen: Fare: Can you point me somewhere specific? 2015-04-22T14:31:29Z Fare: look how asdf/builder.lisp does it, change the desired output to :c 2015-04-22T14:31:50Z Fare: and/or asdf/uiop/lisp-build.lisp 2015-04-22T14:32:30Z Fare: asdf/bundle.lisp, I meant 2015-04-22T14:35:13Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-22T14:35:42Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-04-22T14:36:13Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-22T14:38:51Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-22T14:40:54Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T14:41:56Z devll quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-22T14:42:10Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2015-04-22T14:42:25Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-04-22T14:50:27Z balle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T14:50:57Z emaczen: Fare: Where are these files you are talking about? 2015-04-22T14:52:10Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-04-22T14:52:45Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T14:53:07Z hiyosi quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-04-22T14:53:24Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-04-22T14:53:51Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-04-22T14:56:18Z Fare: in the asdf repo 2015-04-22T14:58:09Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-22T14:58:19Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:00:12Z Ethan- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T15:00:28Z gjr-garch joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:03:16Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:04:38Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-22T15:07:31Z emaczen: How can I create an executable? I've just always used the REPL ... 2015-04-22T15:10:02Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:10:10Z Shinmera: Fare: My flight from Luton back to Zurich today was a mere 35$. 2015-04-22T15:10:56Z eudoxia: wtf 2015-04-22T15:11:06Z manuel__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-22T15:11:09Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-22T15:11:17Z eudoxia: a 20-minute Montevideo->Buenos Aires flight costs 200 bux 2015-04-22T15:11:19Z Shinmera: The one to London on Sunday was (understandably) more expensive. 100$, if I recall. 2015-04-22T15:11:29Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:11:58Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-22T15:14:18Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: when did you buy the tickets ? 2015-04-22T15:14:25Z p_l: Shinmera: you pay for that wirh quality of the experience 2015-04-22T15:14:41Z p_l is currently in luton security queue 2015-04-22T15:14:54Z Shinmera: p_l: It was not worse than any other flight I've ever been on. 2015-04-22T15:15:32Z p_l: btw, when I was a student, it wasn't that much different in price to fly normal instead of low-cost 2015-04-22T15:15:46Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: I bought it early March. 2015-04-22T15:16:16Z nyef: So... a month and a half in advance, for a substantially off-peak travel time? 2015-04-22T15:16:41Z Shinmera: Actually Sunday from Zurich out was peak travel time because it was just the start of school holidays. 2015-04-22T15:17:42Z oleo: suga suga :) 2015-04-22T15:18:29Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:19:35Z Shinmera is off to take care of household related matters 2015-04-22T15:19:49Z p_l: Shinmera: as for diff. with normal airline (for me) - wizzair had giant queue but only 1/3rd of desks open, KLM would have all hands on desk and help in boarding 2015-04-22T15:20:29Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:20:40Z Shinmera: p_l: The plane back was half-empty for me and I was able to get through almost immediately. The plane even left ahead of schedule! 2015-04-22T15:20:53Z mrSpec: p_l: yeah! 2015-04-22T15:21:14Z mrSpec: Fare: when is Opera Festival? ;) 2015-04-22T15:21:38Z the_real_intinig quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-22T15:25:15Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-22T15:25:38Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-22T15:26:05Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:27:45Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:27:45Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-04-22T15:27:45Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:28:07Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: when did you get back ? 2015-04-22T15:28:56Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-22T15:31:09Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:31:59Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:38:13Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-22T15:39:42Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T15:40:36Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T15:40:39Z wglb joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:42:21Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:43:49Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T15:43:57Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T15:44:27Z emaczen: I'm running asdf:make-build to create an executable program and asdf is telling me that "There exists no package with name 'subpackage-name'" 2015-04-22T15:44:28Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:45:11Z emaczen: What I don't understand is that package 'subpackage-name' is necessary to build the system anyway, and I can build it and run it in the REPL without a problem 2015-04-22T15:45:46Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:46:03Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T15:47:43Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:48:28Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: https://twitter.com/Shinmera/status/590871857026490368 https://twitter.com/Shinmera/status/590892752184987648 so two/one hour ago depending on what "back" means. 2015-04-22T15:48:50Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-22T15:49:11Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:50:26Z Fare: mrSpec, http://www.opera.krakow.pl/en 2015-04-22T15:50:42Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:51:20Z Fare: emaczen, do you understand the ECL link model? 2015-04-22T15:51:25Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:51:45Z Fare: if you fail to declare proper dependencies, they won't be included 2015-04-22T15:51:49Z xinau quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-22T15:53:04Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-22T15:53:22Z emaczen: Fare: Haven't I declared the proper dependencies if (asdf:load-system ...) works? 2015-04-22T15:53:34Z emaczen: How else could it load the system without it's dependencies? 2015-04-22T15:53:35Z mrSpec: Fare: Oki! I'll keep this in mind. 2015-04-22T15:53:42Z x1n4u joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:53:42Z Fare: does it work from an empty image? 2015-04-22T15:53:55Z emaczen: Fare: I don't know what that means. 2015-04-22T15:54:05Z Fare: then I can't answer 2015-04-22T15:54:10Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:54:18Z nightshade427 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T15:54:21Z emaczen: Can you tell me what "work from an empty image means?" 2015-04-22T15:54:37Z Fare: asd files can do plenty of ugly things that won't end up declared as a dependency 2015-04-22T15:54:52Z Fare: start a fresh ecl, load your thing 2015-04-22T15:55:10Z Fare just cleaned up the .asd files for CLON 2015-04-22T15:55:56Z emaczen: Ok, I have it loaded 2015-04-22T15:56:00Z wz1000 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T16:00:44Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-22T16:03:36Z skulibj joined #lisp 2015-04-22T16:05:00Z pt1_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-22T16:05:10Z Fare: emaczen: can you write a asdf program-op or cl-launch script to run your program with ccl or sbcl? 2015-04-22T16:05:20Z Fare: then it's easier to port it to ecl 2015-04-22T16:05:43Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T16:05:56Z emaczen: Fare: I'll have to lookup what these tools are as well. 2015-04-22T16:06:22Z emaczen: Fare: The overall idea is to use the output c code in Android/IOS 2015-04-22T16:06:48Z emaczen: But at the same time, I would like to know how to build just a standard executable from lisp since I never have done that before. 2015-04-22T16:07:18Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-22T16:07:26Z x1n4u quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-22T16:08:04Z jackdaniel: emaczen: have you read http://ecls.sourceforge.net/ecldev/devel_2.html#SEC2 ? 2015-04-22T16:08:57Z emaczen: jackdaniel: I'll give it a read. 2015-04-22T16:09:22Z WaREX quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-22T16:09:35Z jackdaniel: I need to move it to wiki, I'll try to do it on weekend I think 2015-04-22T16:09:46Z splittist is jet fresh from ELS too. 2015-04-22T16:09:49Z splittist: That was fun. 2015-04-22T16:10:08Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T16:10:41Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-04-22T16:10:44Z Shinmera: Welcome back. 2015-04-22T16:11:35Z oleo: meow meow! 2015-04-22T16:12:56Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T16:13:37Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-22T16:17:56Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-22T16:18:18Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-22T16:18:38Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-04-22T16:18:38Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-22T16:20:22Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-22T16:25:13Z manuel__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-22T16:27:07Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-22T16:27:47Z redeemed quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-22T16:30:46Z emaczen: jackdaniel: I completed the portion "Standalone program" section, but I get the same error that I did fom (asdf:make-build ...) which just tells me that asdf can't find a subpackage... 2015-04-22T16:31:00Z BRPocock joined #lisp 2015-04-22T16:33:47Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-22T16:34:07Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2015-04-22T16:35:34Z work_op joined #lisp 2015-04-22T16:35:34Z work_op quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-22T16:35:43Z fxck joined #lisp 2015-04-22T16:36:02Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T16:36:33Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T16:36:48Z emaczen: What does "cannot save core with multiple threads runnning mean"? 2015-04-22T16:36:54Z jackdaniel: you are building on ordinary linux without any fancy flags set when configuring? 2015-04-22T16:37:12Z emaczen: I'm trying to execute "SB-EXT:save-lisp-and-die" 2015-04-22T16:37:27Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-22T16:37:41Z jackdaniel: emaczen: when you have many threads, one of them *might* modify something, when you are saving image I think 2015-04-22T16:38:22Z jackdaniel: therefore you can't actually snapshot state of vm 2015-04-22T16:38:32Z emaczen: jackdaniel: When you run the REPL do you get many threads by default? To my knowledge I haven't customized SBCL at all 2015-04-22T16:38:48Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-22T16:38:51Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T16:39:12Z jackdaniel: i don't know really 2015-04-22T16:39:23Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-22T16:39:50Z BRPocock: SLIME REPL, at least, does launch some threads. 2015-04-22T16:40:06Z emaczen: BRPocock: Good idea, I'll kill slime 2015-04-22T16:40:30Z emaczen: It's so weird not running in slime... 2015-04-22T16:40:33Z BRPocock: M-x slime-selector, t 2015-04-22T16:41:00Z jackdaniel: (sb-thread:list-all-threads) 2015-04-22T16:42:33Z BRPocock: I use (swank-loader:dump-image corefile) or Xach's buildapp, so I don't know about sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die personally :-/ 2015-04-22T16:45:51Z skulibj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-22T16:47:55Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-22T16:47:55Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-22T16:49:18Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-22T16:50:05Z emaczen: So I have a form to prompt the user for input and (it just prints ":>") and a form to read the user's input. I am just using format and read-line respectively with the stream being 't' in both. 2015-04-22T16:50:57Z emaczen: In the slime repl, I will see :> and then the program pauses and waits for my input. 2015-04-22T16:51:17Z mogglebang joined #lisp 2015-04-22T16:51:27Z emaczen: In a terminal REPL it pauses to wait for my input and after the input has been received it prints the ":>" prompt. 2015-04-22T16:51:36Z emaczen: Why would these be reversed ? 2015-04-22T16:54:26Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-22T16:54:41Z BRPocock: Flushing pipes, I'd guess 2015-04-22T16:55:21Z BRPocock: Unix standard streams flush on newline, but otherwise wait for more output normally 2015-04-22T16:55:39Z testing123 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T16:55:55Z emaczen: BRPocock: Is there a flush argument to format? 2015-04-22T16:56:08Z emaczen: I'm looking in the GCL info file without luck... 2015-04-22T16:56:44Z BRPocock: finish-output should work 2015-04-22T16:57:16Z fxck left #lisp 2015-04-22T16:57:50Z BRPocock: (finish-output nil) after printing the prompt will flush the output and not return until it's been printed; usually only needed for user prompts or artistic progress meters 2015-04-22T16:59:30Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T17:01:20Z BRPocock: FWIW a little bird tells me you "shouldn't" use (format t …) / *standard-output* but instead write (and read) to/from *query-io* which will autoflush. 2015-04-22T17:01:41Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-22T17:01:49Z testing123 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-22T17:03:12Z emaczen: BRPocock: thanks 2015-04-22T17:03:23Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-04-22T17:04:12Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-22T17:05:42Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-22T17:07:07Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-04-22T17:07:27Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-04-22T17:08:28Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-22T17:09:08Z gjr-garch quit (Quit: gjr-garch) 2015-04-22T17:10:50Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-22T17:12:28Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-22T17:13:28Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-22T17:15:39Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-22T17:16:36Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2015-04-22T17:17:07Z fragamus joined #lisp 2015-04-22T17:17:27Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-22T17:19:21Z emaczen: When I save my lisp image (I am using 'sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die') how can I set the package? I set the toplevel function and it appears that I am not in the right package because none of the symbols that I have exported are available without package prefixing them 2015-04-22T17:19:55Z emaczen: i.e. the function is a loop which accepts user input and the symbol 'q' is exported so that the user can type 'q' to escape 2015-04-22T17:20:05Z Bicyclidine: setf *package*? 2015-04-22T17:20:16Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-22T17:20:30Z emaczen: When I am running the executable, I have to type: client:q 2015-04-22T17:20:40Z BRPocock: (let* ((*package* my-package) (user-input (read-line))) … ) or so? 2015-04-22T17:21:07Z Bicyclidine: though i think *package* should be whatever it was when you ran s-l-a-d 2015-04-22T17:21:37Z emaczen: Bicyclidine: Yeah that's what I thought... 2015-04-22T17:22:16Z emaczen: BRPocock: the function that is getting executed has an in-package form 2015-04-22T17:22:56Z BRPocock: (in-package) is a compile-time effect? 2015-04-22T17:23:20Z Bicyclidine: in the middle of a function it should be the same as (setf *package* ...). 2015-04-22T17:23:28Z BRPocock: hmm, no, it can be run-time also, mea culpa. It is *also* a compile-time effect. 2015-04-22T17:26:07Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T17:26:12Z manuel__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-22T17:26:22Z Bicyclidine: well, it sounds like it should work, i'd have to see the code to make a guess i suppose 2015-04-22T17:28:23Z emaczen: (setf *package* (find-package "name")) works but it seems a litle weird to me? 2015-04-22T17:28:46Z Bicyclidine: what's weird about it? 2015-04-22T17:29:02Z Bicyclidine: you asked to set the package, you set the package. problem solved 2015-04-22T17:29:37Z emaczen: good point 2015-04-22T17:29:52Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-22T17:30:03Z Bicyclidine: i might prefer something like BRPocock did, though, if you only need the package set during a read 2015-04-22T17:34:28Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-22T17:37:47Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-04-22T17:39:13Z BRPocock: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147349 eg. s-l-a-d seems to default to CL-USER with tihs. 2015-04-22T17:42:09Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-22T17:42:46Z Xach joined #lisp 2015-04-22T17:44:06Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2015-04-22T17:45:00Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-22T17:45:11Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-04-22T17:45:50Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-22T17:46:34Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-04-22T17:46:45Z Ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-22T17:47:06Z Xach feels the excitement and energy from a successful Lisp conference!! 2015-04-22T17:47:09Z Xach: hacks and glory! 2015-04-22T17:47:29Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-22T17:52:02Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-22T17:53:29Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-22T17:53:32Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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See: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#C-like-pointers-in-Lisp 2015-04-22T18:41:21Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T18:41:34Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-22T18:41:59Z pjb: freehck: elt is bound by length. aref is bound by array-dimensions; that makes a difference when the vector has a fill-pointer. 2015-04-22T18:41:59Z shka: pjb: i still don't know why anybody would want to use that 2015-04-22T18:42:15Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2015-04-22T18:42:21Z pjb: shka: because they don't want to use mere closures as advised. See above. 2015-04-22T18:42:42Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T18:43:20Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-22T18:43:30Z pjb: shka: anyways, the thing is that this is a design pattern, that while it is inspired from C pointer here (because people keep asking about C pointers), is actually a perfectly good design pattern (macro). It should just be given a nice name in lisp. 2015-04-22T18:43:33Z matthavard joined #lisp 2015-04-22T18:45:15Z matthavard: What are the advantages of a lisp-2? 2015-04-22T18:45:27Z matthavard: Beyond being able to name a variable list or something 2015-04-22T18:45:35Z pjb: can you skin the skin of a skinhead? 2015-04-22T18:45:36Z dlowe: faster compilation. 2015-04-22T18:45:44Z dlowe: er, faster compiled code. 2015-04-22T18:46:11Z fe[nl]ix: dlowe: how so ? 2015-04-22T18:46:12Z matthavard: how much faster? 2015-04-22T18:46:14Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2015-04-22T18:46:17Z matthavard: and yes, how so? 2015-04-22T18:46:44Z matthavard: I feel like in practice I would avoid having variables and functions share the same name anyway 2015-04-22T18:47:24Z dlowe: if you have a spot that you know is going to be a function call, you can code the call without a trampoline to make sure it's the right type and what the value is. 2015-04-22T18:47:28Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-22T18:47:43Z dlowe: the compiler also has the option of inlining the call 2015-04-22T18:47:52Z fe[nl]ix: hmm, never thought of that 2015-04-22T18:48:53Z dlowe: I think most schemes these days try to figure it out ahead of time, but that's because we are all running supercomputers now 2015-04-22T18:50:00Z dlowe: the pros and cons are pretty well explained in R. Gabriel's paper. 2015-04-22T18:56:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: "I feel like in practice I would avoid having variables and functions share the same name anyway" It's really nice not having to think up a new name when writing code like (let ((width (width foo)) (height (height foo))) ...) 2015-04-22T18:57:29Z oGMo: Petit_Dejeuner: quite. in fact, using languages where that _is_ an issue always bites me quickly, especially when assignment to thing globally changes thing 2015-04-22T18:57:48Z fe[nl]ix: Petit_Dejeuner: I find that quite a nice style instead 2015-04-22T18:58:19Z oGMo: it would be like requiring unique names for literally every different kind of thing. hash key somewhere? can't use it as a variable! 2015-04-22T18:58:29Z clop: not to mention: if you're including someone else's body of code, it'd be pretty awful to have to rename your variables just because they've added some functions 2015-04-22T18:58:40Z fe[nl]ix: Petit_Dejeuner: (defun foo (string) (let ((string (string string))) ...)) 2015-04-22T18:58:50Z dlowe: well, that's what the package system is for. 2015-04-22T18:59:00Z Petit_Dejeuner: fe[nl]ix, That seems a bit too much. 2015-04-22T18:59:03Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-22T18:59:16Z fe[nl]ix: Petit_Dejeuner: I use that often. makes a lot of sense to me 2015-04-22T19:00:13Z Petit_Dejeuner: Maybe I just don't like it because it isn't a real example. 2015-04-22T19:00:20Z Petit_Dejeuner: So I can't tell what it means. 2015-04-22T19:00:20Z Shinmera: Patterns like what fe[nl]ix just posted pop up in my code often enough as well. 2015-04-22T19:00:52Z fe[nl]ix: Petit_Dejeuner: the function cl:string takes a string designator and turns that into a string 2015-04-22T19:01:13Z fe[nl]ix: a string designator is either an actual string, a symbol in which case it returns the symbol name 2015-04-22T19:01:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: fe[nl]ix, Ah, I just tried to run (string string) to see what it does, but I got an unbound variable error and thought there wasn't a #'string. 2015-04-22T19:01:39Z fe[nl]ix: or a character, where it returns a string containing only that character 2015-04-22T19:01:45Z Petit_Dejeuner: It was complaining about the argument though. 2015-04-22T19:02:02Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-22T19:02:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: I can see how that's idiomatic now. 2015-04-22T19:02:33Z hekmek joined #lisp 2015-04-22T19:02:52Z Shinmera quickly greps ... https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TlRRNA== 2015-04-22T19:04:02Z emaczen: Cany any CCLers tell me why the cocoa example "currency-converer" in the /examples/cocoa directory of the distribution wouldn't work? When it failed, it said: "Evaluation aborted on # I can't announce cl-launch 4.1.3 on the /topic ? 2015-04-22T19:26:15Z emaczen: Xach: Thanks, I unfortunately missed your help window :* 2015-04-22T19:26:17Z emaczen: :() 2015-04-22T19:26:30Z emaczen: :( 2015-04-22T19:27:29Z fe[nl]ix changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs:|contact op if muted| cl-launch 4.1.3, Drakma 1.3.14, Hunchentoot 1.2.31, SBCL 1.2.10 2015-04-22T19:31:23Z mateuszb_ joined #lisp 2015-04-22T19:31:23Z Fare: main improvement is -sm and -Ds options, and using package-inferred-system for dispatch.lisp 2015-04-22T19:31:45Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-22T19:34:17Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-22T19:34:22Z mateuszb quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-22T19:35:19Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T19:35:22Z Fare: which talks do you recommend particularly from ELS 2015? Any field report? 2015-04-22T19:36:25Z shka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-22T19:36:42Z shka joined #lisp 2015-04-22T19:36:50Z fe[nl]ix: Fare: Martin, Ahmon Dancy, drmeister 2015-04-22T19:38:46Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T19:39:15Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-22T19:39:46Z fe[nl]ix: Fare: and there were at least 2-3 others pretty interesting 2015-04-22T19:44:01Z BRPocock quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-22T19:44:09Z linux_dream: how hard is to learn (defclass things in CL? 2015-04-22T19:44:25Z linux_dream: it's not even in "common lisp: a gentle introduction" book 2015-04-22T19:44:47Z Xach: linux_dream: it is not hard. practical common lisp gives it good coverage. 2015-04-22T19:45:08Z linux_dream: I tried to learn it there but I got lost 2015-04-22T19:45:14Z linux_dream: I jumped a few chapters though 2015-04-22T19:45:14Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-22T19:45:16Z Xach: try again, maybe it will be clearer 2015-04-22T19:45:27Z linux_dream: do i need to learn the previous chapters too 2015-04-22T19:45:34Z Xach: sonya keene's book about clos is also a good introduction 2015-04-22T19:45:46Z Xach: linux_dream: i don't remember, sorry. 2015-04-22T19:46:04Z oleo: + AMOP 2015-04-22T19:46:21Z linux_dream: I'm not understanding the purpose of defclass 2015-04-22T19:47:26Z Fade: o_0 2015-04-22T19:48:04Z Xach: linux_dream: defclass is to define a sort of template for creating things. 2015-04-22T19:48:11Z Xach: with lots of options on top. 2015-04-22T19:48:23Z mogglebang quit (Quit: mogglebang) 2015-04-22T19:48:25Z fe[nl]ix: Fare: this was easily the best ELS I've ever attended 2015-04-22T19:48:29Z oleo: it's object oriented programming, defclass defines objects of a certain class (with some certain behaviour), which then get instantiated at some point, and all objects of that class behave the same way..... 2015-04-22T19:49:04Z linux_dream: ok thanks 2015-04-22T19:50:16Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-22T19:50:17Z oleo: you can then inherit properties of that class in another new-class (which has additional behaviour to that one which it got via heritage) 2015-04-22T19:52:16Z oleo: behaviour+properties..... 2015-04-22T19:54:00Z Fare: fe[nl]ix, wonderful! 2015-04-22T19:55:22Z clop: are there any ELS proceedings/slides/talks/whatever online anywhere for those of us that didn't go? 2015-04-22T19:56:05Z Slench joined #lisp 2015-04-22T19:56:40Z Xach: clop: http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/ELS2015.pdf 2015-04-22T19:57:11Z Slench: Hi, I'm unable to use swank because the "address is already in use", and I'm unsure of what to do. I got sent here from #stumpwm 2015-04-22T19:57:52Z clop: awesome, thanks! 2015-04-22T19:58:10Z madnificent: Slench: you alreday have a process which uses port 4005, I guess... 2015-04-22T19:58:20Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-04-22T19:58:23Z madnificent: Slench: do you have other lisp instances running which have a published swank port? 2015-04-22T20:01:25Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-22T20:01:42Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-04-22T20:02:05Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T20:03:34Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-04-22T20:03:47Z Fare: Xach: thanks! 2015-04-22T20:04:19Z gniourf_gniourf joined #lisp 2015-04-22T20:04:35Z Fare expresses some more love for optima.ppcre 2015-04-22T20:04:44Z Slench: I've tried port 4006 5555, and 4567, none work 2015-04-22T20:05:21Z Fare: (and for package-inferred-system) 2015-04-22T20:06:29Z Xach: Slench: that is odd. are you able to open a listening port with a different program, like "nc"? 2015-04-22T20:07:15Z Slench: never actually used nc before 2015-04-22T20:08:42Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T20:10:06Z linux_dream: can someone explain me why running my code (https://github.com/arbolis/common_lisp_stuff/blob/master/goproblem_2.lisp ) , in the repl I do (check-if-adjascent) and I get the message ; Evaluation aborted on #>. 2015-04-22T20:11:58Z Bicyclidine: linux_dream: a 2d array isn't an array of arrays, you can't use nth like that 2015-04-22T20:12:12Z linux_dream: ok thanks 2015-04-22T20:12:28Z Bicyclidine: use aref instead 2015-04-22T20:12:34Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-22T20:12:37Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T20:13:58Z p_l: another ELS'15 returner 2015-04-22T20:14:13Z p_l arrived home 2015-04-22T20:15:06Z spockokt: p_l: welcome back 2015-04-22T20:16:06Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-22T20:16:40Z a2015_ joined #lisp 2015-04-22T20:17:09Z Slothel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-22T20:17:22Z Slothel joined #lisp 2015-04-22T20:19:17Z Slothel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-22T20:19:22Z css106420_ joined #lisp 2015-04-22T20:21:07Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-04-22T20:23:22Z lieven quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-22T20:23:49Z Xof: Y U ALL LEAVE? 2015-04-22T20:23:55Z Xof: It was fun hosting you all 2015-04-22T20:24:01Z linux_dream: thanks Bicyclidine I could proceed further 2015-04-22T20:24:23Z fe[nl]ix: :D 2015-04-22T20:24:57Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-22T20:24:58Z fe[nl]ix: Xof: next time I'll try getting some vacation days around the conference 2015-04-22T20:25:14Z p_l: Xof: I have a job that I somewhat still need to do :D 2015-04-22T20:25:36Z p_l: Xof: that said, I spent today walking through london :) 2015-04-22T20:25:48Z drmeister: Hello. People are asking about the ELS talks - are they up anywhere yet - I suspect no. 2015-04-22T20:26:10Z Xach: drmeister: up in what form? 2015-04-22T20:26:12Z p_l: drmeister: not yet, I bet. Will probably take some time, especially if they want to put them well 2015-04-22T20:26:23Z drmeister: fe[nl]ix: did we meet? 2015-04-22T20:26:27Z pjb: no, they are not at http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/ELS2015.pdf 2015-04-22T20:26:37Z shka: is that method correct? http://paste.lisp.org/display/147358 2015-04-22T20:26:43Z drmeister: Xach: video or it didn't happen. 2015-04-22T20:26:47Z fe[nl]ix: drmeister: yes we did 2015-04-22T20:26:50Z pjb: shka: hard to say: no specification. 2015-04-22T20:27:06Z shka: right, i wrote it for myself 2015-04-22T20:27:13Z pjb: shka: probably not, given how it uses delete. 2015-04-22T20:27:15Z drmeister: fe[nl]ix: phew 2015-04-22T20:27:22Z fe[nl]ix: hahaha 2015-04-22T20:27:38Z Xach: It might have been nice to assemble for a group picture, and then annotate it with nicknames. 2015-04-22T20:27:43Z shka: but it is supposed to move one element from vector in slot to another vector in slot 2015-04-22T20:27:43Z Xach: Maybe next time. 2015-04-22T20:28:03Z Xach -> zzz -> transatlantic flight 2015-04-22T20:28:25Z drmeister: Xach: are you home? 2015-04-22T20:28:33Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-22T20:28:40Z pjb: shka: what happens when the element is present several times in the source vector? What happens when delete is implemented as remove as implementations are allowed to do? etc. 2015-04-22T20:29:04Z Xach: drmeister: no, i'm still at the hotel. i had a day of sightseeing today. but it was a lot of walking and i am out of gumption. 2015-04-22T20:29:08Z drmeister: I had a terrible landing. Check out this approach to Philadelphia. 2015-04-22T20:29:20Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/hAJZFjZA/IMG_3257.JPG 2015-04-22T20:29:48Z Xach: i can hear yakety sax playing 2015-04-22T20:29:54Z pjb: terrible landings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOx5Knk6S9I 2015-04-22T20:29:55Z fxh joined #lisp 2015-04-22T20:29:58Z Xach zzz, for real 2015-04-22T20:30:19Z Posterdati: https://gitlab.com/tapioco71/circuit-solver 2015-04-22T20:30:30Z shka: pjb: first point is not relevant to this case, second is 2015-04-22T20:30:41Z drmeister: Lots of turbulence- several seats need new air sickness bags. 2015-04-22T20:30:47Z pjb: shka: it's not in the specifications so how can we know it's not relevant? 2015-04-22T20:31:00Z shka: good point 2015-04-22T20:31:07Z drmeister: The things I tolerate for my art. 2015-04-22T20:31:09Z pjb: shka: where are the assertions that proves that it is impossible to add twice the same element? 2015-04-22T20:31:33Z pjb: like: (assert (not (find (aref (access-content source) index) (access-content destination)))) 2015-04-22T20:31:41Z shka: pardon me, but why i should disallow that? 2015-04-22T20:32:03Z fxh: how would one approach splitting a list into two lists (one list with syllables, the other with vowels)? I solved it but the solution was dumb, I created a function to extract syllables, and another to extract vowels and just glued them together 2015-04-22T20:32:04Z pjb: is it, or is it not in your specifications? 2015-04-22T20:32:26Z shka: i don't disallow that 2015-04-22T20:32:48Z shka: i allow duplicated instances in the vector 2015-04-22T20:32:57Z shka: anyway 2015-04-22T20:33:15Z shka: perhaps there is a better way to simply move element beetween vectors 2015-04-22T20:33:32Z shka: this code seems to be kinda lame 2015-04-22T20:33:49Z pjb: No. and delete is O(n) on vectors. 2015-04-22T20:34:20Z shka: i know 2015-04-22T20:34:33Z shka: everyone knows that 2015-04-22T20:34:42Z Jaskologist quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-22T20:34:50Z shka: but i need to have access to not only first element 2015-04-22T20:35:23Z shka: vector is what i need, really 2015-04-22T20:35:31Z shka: but i have a bug elsewhere 2015-04-22T20:36:21Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T20:36:40Z pjb: shka: do you know how to use delete correctly? 2015-04-22T20:37:08Z shka: pjb: i used to think so… 2015-04-22T20:37:14Z pjb: clhs delete 2015-04-22T20:37:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 2015-04-22T20:37:47Z Posterdati: shka: what are you going put in the vectors? 2015-04-22T20:38:22Z Xof: drmeister: videos will not be out for a while; it'll take me some time to catch up with my day job and also find the energy to mess around with video editors 2015-04-22T20:38:26Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-22T20:38:30Z shka: Posterdati: clos objects 2015-04-22T20:38:39Z linux_dream: hey guys I'm using emacs+slime+paredit mode. Why is "check-if-adjacsent" highlighted in red in the following: (if (and (not (check-if-adjascent)) (not (already-a-stone))) ) 2015-04-22T20:38:47Z Xof: think weeks rather than days 2015-04-22T20:39:21Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T20:39:27Z linux_dream: both check-if-adjascent and already-a-stone are boolean functions 2015-04-22T20:39:42Z Fare: not in scope? misspelled? 2015-04-22T20:39:42Z linux_dream: why wouldl one be highlighted in red but not the other? 2015-04-22T20:40:00Z Fare: adjacent, maybe? 2015-04-22T20:40:04Z Bicyclidine: linux_dream: i think slime highlights check-* as red. 2015-04-22T20:40:09Z drmeister: Xof: no problem - take your time. I saw talk about them and was hoping against hope. 2015-04-22T20:40:23Z linux_dream: the orthograph is correct 2015-04-22T20:40:55Z gniourf_gniourf quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-22T20:41:12Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-22T20:41:25Z p_l: drmeister: that Philadelphia approach looks pretty nice overall (or in other words, too low resolution and 2D only and no speed marks to judge, so the STAR is probably insane) 2015-04-22T20:41:26Z pjb: shka: so basically you have to write (setf s (delete e s)) always. 2015-04-22T20:42:54Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-22T20:43:14Z shka: pjb: i see 2015-04-22T20:43:46Z gniourf_gniourf joined #lisp 2015-04-22T20:43:57Z Fare: Xof: find a sucker to delegate to? 2015-04-22T20:44:30Z Fare: (and, congrats for organizing ELS 2015 which some attendee has declared to be the best he attended) 2015-04-22T20:45:00Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-22T20:46:16Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-22T20:46:19Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T20:47:03Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-22T20:47:07Z shka: pjb: what is the actual reason behind this behavior in the standard? One would expect delete to always mutate data. 2015-04-22T20:47:22Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-22T20:47:39Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-22T20:47:45Z pjb: shka: when you're implementing CL on a microcontroller, it's good to avoid complexities. 2015-04-22T20:48:12Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-22T20:48:34Z newcup quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-22T20:48:44Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T20:50:10Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-22T20:50:22Z newcup joined #lisp 2015-04-22T20:50:34Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-04-22T20:51:24Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T20:51:35Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T20:52:28Z mogglebang joined #lisp 2015-04-22T20:53:47Z lisper29 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-22T20:55:15Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2015-04-22T20:58:34Z linux_dream: Bicyclidine, no, I have other parts in my code with check-if-adjascent and none of them are red 2015-04-22T20:58:48Z linux_dream: I have only one that's red 2015-04-22T21:01:08Z lieven joined #lisp 2015-04-22T21:01:35Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T21:02:03Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-22T21:03:00Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-22T21:03:46Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-04-22T21:04:15Z malbertife quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-22T21:04:43Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-22T21:05:25Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-22T21:06:09Z matthavard quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-22T21:06:21Z pjb: linux_dream: so nobody told you already that it's adjacent, not adjascent? https://www.google.fr/search?q=adjacent&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=OQ04VaH2FsHKaIOngMAF 2015-04-22T21:10:01Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-22T21:13:40Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-04-22T21:13:46Z theseb left #lisp 2015-04-22T21:15:29Z fragamus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-22T21:15:44Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-22T21:15:51Z axion: linux_dream: i told you its spelled wrong! 2015-04-22T21:15:57Z axion: like 3 days ago 2015-04-22T21:16:19Z axion: and i'm telling myself i forgot an apostrophe 2015-04-22T21:17:58Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2015-04-22T21:20:11Z pjb: I use to fire people who can't spell well identifiers. 2015-04-22T21:20:16Z PuercoPop: Xof: you could probably crowdsource funding to pay someone to do the editing for you. 2015-04-22T21:20:31Z pjb: Imagine the time spent by coworkers, grepping for adjacent and not finding your mispelled code! 2015-04-22T21:21:30Z Slench quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-22T21:21:43Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-22T21:21:46Z Posterdati: pjb: those bad identifiers! 2015-04-22T21:25:26Z hekmek quit (Quit: hekmek) 2015-04-22T21:25:56Z Xof: PuercoPop: honestly, I could pay someone to do the editing for me 2015-04-22T21:26:08Z Xof: but I have to spend time finding that person 2015-04-22T21:27:26Z sunwukong` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-22T21:28:10Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T21:28:39Z fragamus joined #lisp 2015-04-22T21:30:50Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-04-22T21:30:56Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-22T21:31:02Z newcup quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-22T21:31:12Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-22T21:34:38Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-22T21:37:06Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T21:39:14Z linux_dream quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-22T21:41:57Z sz0 quit (Quit: Bye.) 2015-04-22T21:47:02Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-22T21:47:21Z newcup joined #lisp 2015-04-22T21:50:19Z x1n4u joined #lisp 2015-04-22T21:50:43Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-22T21:51:48Z BRPocock joined #lisp 2015-04-22T21:56:32Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T21:56:49Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-22T21:59:35Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-22T22:03:19Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-04-22T22:05:18Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-22T22:06:48Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-22T22:09:59Z scottj joined #lisp 2015-04-22T22:12:02Z jimmie_ is now known as Slothel 2015-04-22T22:12:07Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-04-22T22:13:14Z troydm quit (Quit: What is hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? (C) Rau Le Creuset) 2015-04-22T22:13:39Z troydm joined #lisp 2015-04-22T22:14:06Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-22T22:14:34Z linux_dream: but why would that matter whether it's ajdascent or adjacent? I just fixed the typo and the color is still red... 2015-04-22T22:14:48Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-22T22:15:38Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T22:15:40Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-22T22:15:41Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T22:15:41Z linux_dream: I had "adjascent" all over the place, and only in 1 place it's displayed as red 2015-04-22T22:16:11Z linux_dream: I'm just wondering why. of course it has nothing to do of whether it's spelled adjascent or adjacent but i fixed he typo 2015-04-22T22:16:15Z Pastaf joined #lisp 2015-04-22T22:18:29Z linux_dream: I was thinking, maybe it's becaues the function returned "NIL" when I last evaluated it, but this isn't it. There's another function that returned NIL too and it isn't red 2015-04-22T22:20:50Z linux_dream: https://i.imgur.com/FRcWeim.png 2015-04-22T22:21:09Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T22:23:07Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T22:27:44Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-22T22:32:20Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T22:32:32Z madnificent quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-22T22:36:30Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-22T22:37:45Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T22:37:50Z pjb: linux_dream: Imagine the time spent by coworkers, grepping for adjacent and not finding your mispelled code! 2015-04-22T22:38:18Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T22:38:57Z BRPocock: CHECK-* is highlighted red, in Emacs. 2015-04-22T22:39:11Z BRPocock: as in (check-type) and friends. 2015-04-22T22:39:27Z justicefries joined #lisp 2015-04-22T22:39:27Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-22T22:39:38Z BRPocock: By tradition, (check-*something*) is an assertion. 2015-04-22T22:39:43Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2015-04-22T22:40:21Z pjb: linux_dream: when translating from python, you have to understand first what the semantics of python are. You clearly don't understand that python is an OO programming language, and that what you have written are slots and methods to a python class. Instead, you are translating that into globals and functions using global variables, and this is bad style. You're programming like it is the 70s! 2015-04-22T22:40:53Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-04-22T22:41:47Z pjb: Instead of check-if-adjacent, you should write: (defun there-are-adjacent-stones-p (board x y) …) 2015-04-22T22:42:36Z pjb: instead of already-a-stone, you should wriet (defun cell-is-stone-p (board x y) …) 2015-04-22T22:42:43Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-22T22:45:03Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T22:46:32Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-04-22T22:48:08Z linux_dream: thanks for the tips 2015-04-22T22:48:20Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T22:48:39Z linux_dream: BRPocock, then why it isn't highlighted everywhere but only in 1 place? 2015-04-22T22:48:49Z pjb: This is the reason why trying to learn a language by translating a program from another language is a bad idea: usually you don't know the old language well enough to be able to do that! 2015-04-22T22:49:02Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-22T22:49:05Z BRPocock: Is that the only place where it's called as a function, maybe? 2015-04-22T22:49:11Z linux_dream: well I'm tempted to dive into CL and leave python behind 2015-04-22T22:49:17Z pjb: linux_dream: because it uses emacs font-lock mechanism that is based on regular expressions, instead of semantic parsing. 2015-04-22T22:49:18Z linux_dream: yes it is BRPocock 2015-04-22T22:49:42Z linux_dream: in ython I wrote about 10 little programs only 2015-04-22T22:49:54Z linux_dream: now I'm not trying to translate the program litterally 2015-04-22T22:50:01Z linux_dream: I'm tryign to write it in CL 2015-04-22T22:50:11Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-22T22:50:11Z linux_dream: the logic shouldn't be that different I guess 2015-04-22T22:50:15Z BRPocock: It won't highlight the symbol, only where it's used as a function call. eg, not in (defun check-blah…) but in (check-blah) 2015-04-22T22:50:21Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-22T22:50:32Z linux_dream: ok 2015-04-22T22:50:38Z linux_dream: so that's no harm I suppose 2015-04-22T22:50:51Z pjb: linux_dream: think about what "to check" means. 2015-04-22T22:51:06Z linux_dream: to verify 2015-04-22T22:51:10Z pjb: which means? 2015-04-22T22:51:24Z linux_dream: return a boolean value 2015-04-22T22:51:28Z pjb: Nope. 2015-04-22T22:51:28Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-04-22T22:51:33Z linux_dream: aww :( 2015-04-22T22:51:59Z jasom: I thought it meant to mark an item as selected :P 2015-04-22T22:52:03Z pjb: predicate returns boolean values. That's why my proposed function names end in -P 2015-04-22T22:52:12Z pjb: We already explained all this two days ago… 2015-04-22T22:52:21Z linux_dream: yeah I remember that 2015-04-22T22:52:49Z linux_dream: you suggested that I rename my functions with a -p in the end 2015-04-22T22:52:54Z pjb: When you check, you test a boolean expression, and if it's false, you perform some contingency plan to paliate the problem. You keep the problem "in check". 2015-04-22T22:52:55Z linux_dream: which I forgot to do 2015-04-22T22:52:55Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-04-22T22:53:10Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-04-22T22:53:11Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-04-22T22:53:12Z pjb: In the case of CL, checking operators will usually signal an error when the boolean is false. 2015-04-22T22:53:21Z pjb: see for example check-type 2015-04-22T22:53:56Z pjb: that's why operators named check-something are fontified specially, because they may signal an error, and therefore be the source of a non-local exit. 2015-04-22T22:54:13Z pjb: they are like assertions. 2015-04-22T22:54:29Z linux_dream: over my head for now I guess 2015-04-22T22:54:38Z pjb: Then copy and paste, and read again later. 2015-04-22T22:54:48Z linux_dream: yes 2015-04-22T22:55:00Z pjb: What you want, from the usage you have of it, is to have predicates, simple functions returning booleans, that you use in your while and if tests. 2015-04-22T22:55:04Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T22:55:17Z BRPocock: "non-local exit" in this case means, unless you handle it specially, "abrupt end of your program's life" 2015-04-22T22:55:54Z jasom: linux_dream: a function named check-foo that returns a boolean is like a non-native English speaker saying "I have busy now" 2015-04-22T22:56:03Z linux_dream: ouch 2015-04-22T22:56:04Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: out) 2015-04-22T22:56:07Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-04-22T22:56:17Z jasom: with a bit of work, someone can figure out what you meant, but it takes extra mental effort 2015-04-22T22:58:01Z linux_dream: ok I'm fixing the code. hope to understand this later 2015-04-22T22:58:07Z linux_dream: I' m totally blind 2015-04-22T22:58:18Z jasom: minion: tell linux_dream about gentle 2015-04-22T22:58:19Z minion: linux_dream: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 2015-04-22T22:59:10Z axion: he already knows about gentle. he's been reading PCL first, but insists on skipping certain parts of it and going back to hacking on his game 2015-04-22T22:59:22Z jasom: ah 2015-04-22T23:00:00Z axion: i told him i'd help him/answer any questions he may have after he reads that 2015-04-22T23:00:02Z pjb: He just doesn't realize that we've been thru hundreds of newbies, and it's always the same thing… 2015-04-22T23:00:06Z linux_dream: in gentle there's no "(defclass " in the whole book and I need to understand this 2015-04-22T23:00:09Z axion: but we're not getting anywhere in that area :/ 2015-04-22T23:00:12Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T23:00:28Z pjb: linux_dream: OO is simple. You first need to learn the rest of lisp. 2015-04-22T23:00:36Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-04-22T23:00:41Z linux_dream: what's 00 ? 2015-04-22T23:00:56Z jasom: linux_dream: Object Oriented 2015-04-22T23:00:58Z pjb: Object Oriented (Programming, Design, etc). 2015-04-22T23:00:59Z pjb: http://www.aiai.ed.ac.uk/~jeff/clos-guide.html 2015-04-22T23:00:59Z axion: 00 reduces to 0 2015-04-22T23:01:01Z linux_dream: oh 2015-04-22T23:02:03Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-22T23:02:10Z pjb: linux_dream: http://paste.lisp.org/display/139974 2015-04-22T23:02:16Z axion: again, this answer is in PCL. quite a large section IIRC 2015-04-22T23:02:17Z Slothel quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-22T23:02:24Z css106420_ is now known as Slothel 2015-04-22T23:02:38Z axion: stop trying to code without understanding the language by reading the resource I have provided! 2015-04-22T23:02:41Z jimmie_ joined #lisp 2015-04-22T23:03:01Z a2015_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-22T23:03:10Z Slothel: Is there a better way to learn Lisp than the interactive tutorial? I've finished that and I still don't think I have enough knowledge 2015-04-22T23:03:18Z jasom: pjb: the clos guide assumes a general knowledge of OO, doesn't it? 2015-04-22T23:03:21Z Slothel: I'd prefer a textbook or something that doesn't shy away from theory 2015-04-22T23:03:56Z linux_dream: yeah axion I've read more today but definitely a long time before I can go through it entirely 2015-04-22T23:04:08Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T23:04:08Z axion: it's seriously like a half day of reading 2015-04-22T23:04:23Z pjb: jasom: it assumes knowledge of lisp, but indeed, it might be good to have a knowledge of Smalltalk too. 2015-04-22T23:04:30Z axion: at most, assuming you have more than a middle school reading level 2015-04-22T23:04:34Z linux_dream: not for me axion, I'm slow 2015-04-22T23:04:38Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-04-22T23:04:54Z linux_dream: I can spend 10 minutes on 5 lines of code in that book 2015-04-22T23:05:06Z linux_dream: and reading the text over and over and looking at the code 2015-04-22T23:05:11Z jasom: axion: that assumes you are well familiar with programming in general; PCL really assumes an intermediate level developer in at least one non-lisp as a baseline 2015-04-22T23:05:37Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-04-22T23:05:39Z pillton: Sonya Keene's book is pretty gentle too. 2015-04-22T23:05:43Z axion: jasom: Hmm, I learned Lisp by reading PCL with only a brief introduction in Python...same as him i imagine 2015-04-22T23:06:09Z jasom: Slothel: PAIP has a lot of lisp code in it; it's not specifically a "learn lisp" book, but is helpful 2015-04-22T23:06:31Z linux_dream: axion I jumped into python without tutorial nor book 2015-04-22T23:06:37Z axion: as did i 2015-04-22T23:06:40Z linux_dream: just with problems in mimnd to solve 2015-04-22T23:06:42Z linux_dream: ok 2015-04-22T23:07:19Z jasom: If PCL isn't working, then maybe gentle will be better; not everyone learns the same. 2015-04-22T23:07:31Z pjb: Honestly, old hats like us have had it easy since we had time to learn stuff as the same time it was invented, mostly. For newbies, a big pedagogical effort should be made to fast track them. Otherwise, I don't see how they can deal with it without going thru a lot of stuff as we did. On the other hand, it look like there are still a lot of autodidacts or mostly autodidacts with the web, so perhaps we could just ignore the problem? 2015-04-22T23:07:43Z axion: Land of Lisp might be nice too. You get to build a game, which you seem to find interesting 2015-04-22T23:07:51Z axion: I never read it though...cant vouch for it 2015-04-22T23:08:11Z fxh quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-22T23:08:26Z Slothel: jasom: Thanks, I'll look into it. I'm a little tired of 'Practical Lisp' books, I want something that blends in a little theory 2015-04-22T23:09:02Z linux_dream: not sure I can go with gentle introduction. my goal is to finish my program with axion and we started it with (defclass which gentle doesn't cover 2015-04-22T23:09:33Z axion: linux_dream: you don't have to use OO. infact you can use any paradigm, or mix and match with lisp 2015-04-22T23:09:37Z BRPocock: I rather started with the Gimp Guile tutorials O:-) and then CLHS. 2015-04-22T23:09:41Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T23:10:09Z linux_dream: yeah axion but I'd rather at least have a good example, a good program made by a lisper like you :) I could study it 2015-04-22T23:10:22Z axion: it was mainly meant as an example on how you could get rid of all your global variables somewhat easily. in hindsight, it seems to have been a bad example 2015-04-22T23:10:26Z linux_dream: and I know exactly what the program is supposed to do 2015-04-22T23:10:49Z linux_dream: well it's over my head for now yes 2015-04-22T23:11:08Z linux_dream: but if that's the way you'd solve the problem then I'm interestedd in continuing it later 2015-04-22T23:11:29Z jasom: Slothel: what kind of theory? 2015-04-22T23:12:29Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-04-22T23:12:40Z Slothel: jasom: Well, lisp theory of course! Haha, just jokin'. I meant that sort of sarcastically, because the only books I've seen on lisp invariably have some tagline about "Lisp for the Real World" 2015-04-22T23:12:52Z jasom: SICL is very grounded in theory, but is scheme; LiSP goes into the nuts and bolts of interpreters and compilers, but while it touches on both CL and scheme control constructs, the author is also more grounded in scheme than lisp. The stereotype is schemers being more interested in theory and lispers being more interested in practicalities. 2015-04-22T23:12:54Z Slothel: jasom: it makes me curious to find a book that isn't primarily for the real world, if that makes sense 2015-04-22T23:13:10Z jasom: er SICP 2015-04-22T23:13:19Z BRPocock: Lisp In Small Pieces, maybe? Is a bit more theory-driven. (But: Scheme) 2015-04-22T23:13:47Z Slothel: that's Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, right? 2015-04-22T23:13:50Z jasom: yeah 2015-04-22T23:13:56Z Slothel: cool, I found a free PDF for taht 2015-04-22T23:14:14Z Slothel: how is Ansi Common Lisp by paul graham? Anyone read it? 2015-04-22T23:14:35Z axion: linux_dream: i don't understand the mechanics of Go enough at this time, and I've been busy IRL and with my game as of late. Plus, I think you could use a little more research before you could understand what I'd explain by code. Most likely when we are both ready you will benefit much more so 2015-04-22T23:14:36Z jasom: I flipped through it in a book store 2015-04-22T23:14:46Z Bike: minion: graham crackers? 2015-04-22T23:14:46Z minion: graham crackers: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html 2015-04-22T23:15:11Z linux_dream: ok axion. aanyway no knowledge of the game of go is required 2015-04-22T23:15:31Z jasom: On Lisp is a good introduction to macrology (the notes in graham crackers aside) but, as with any book on macrology, you want to remember that most of the time you don't need it. 2015-04-22T23:15:57Z linux_dream: almost no knowledge. if you know that it's a 19x19 grid in which we place stones 1 by 1 on the grid it's enough 2015-04-22T23:15:58Z BRPocock going afk somewhat indefinitely 2015-04-22T23:17:53Z axion: linux_dream: good. I think your persistence will pay off. 2015-04-22T23:17:57Z axion: anyway...back to VIM 2015-04-22T23:18:06Z axion: oops...did i just say that? i meant...emacs 2015-04-22T23:18:39Z linux_dream: :D 2015-04-22T23:18:59Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T23:20:38Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-22T23:20:47Z antoszka: jasom: I think Hoyte's LoL is a much more interesting book on macrology. 2015-04-22T23:21:10Z antoszka: (though I realise it relates to On Lisp in various places) 2015-04-22T23:27:32Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2015-04-22T23:27:46Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-04-22T23:29:04Z pjb is now known as Guest67487 2015-04-22T23:29:11Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2015-04-22T23:29:15Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-04-22T23:29:31Z Guest67487 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-22T23:30:30Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-04-22T23:31:38Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-22T23:33:17Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-22T23:34:13Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-22T23:34:16Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T23:37:33Z C6248 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T23:44:33Z x1n4u quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-22T23:44:35Z xinau joined #lisp 2015-04-22T23:44:40Z tmh_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T23:46:03Z linux_dream quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-22T23:46:47Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-04-22T23:47:48Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T23:48:46Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-22T23:49:33Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-04-22T23:51:09Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-22T23:54:21Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T23:58:03Z a2015 joined #lisp 2015-04-22T23:58:46Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-22T23:59:39Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-04-23T00:03:55Z C6248 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-23T00:05:03Z tmh_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T00:06:11Z xiaoguo joined #lisp 2015-04-23T00:06:25Z Denommus quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-23T00:09:30Z TeMPOraL quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-23T00:09:46Z emaczen`` joined #lisp 2015-04-23T00:11:04Z TeMPOraL joined #lisp 2015-04-23T00:13:43Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T00:15:39Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-04-23T00:15:43Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-23T00:19:26Z matthavard joined #lisp 2015-04-23T00:20:20Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-04-23T00:20:32Z a2015 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-23T00:21:22Z a2015 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T00:22:06Z joneshf-laptop quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-23T00:22:07Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-04-23T00:23:12Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-04-23T00:26:16Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-23T00:27:48Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T00:28:21Z C6248 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T00:32:18Z mogglebang quit (Quit: mogglebang) 2015-04-23T00:41:08Z Longlius quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T00:42:23Z keen________ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T00:43:48Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-04-23T00:44:48Z keen_______ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-23T00:46:29Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T00:47:07Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-04-23T00:54:27Z pyon is now known as ex-pyon-ential 2015-04-23T00:54:36Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-23T00:54:39Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T00:54:45Z ex-pyon-ential is now known as pyon 2015-04-23T00:56:32Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T01:00:02Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-04-23T01:02:13Z karswell` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-23T01:02:28Z emaczen`` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T01:02:43Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T01:06:04Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T01:06:13Z linux_dream quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T01:07:44Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T01:07:53Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T01:08:12Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T01:10:00Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2015-04-23T01:16:35Z Ralt quit (Quit: ZNC - 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Good lunchtime. 2015-04-23T04:32:06Z Brozo: and pillton said good morning half an hour ago 2015-04-23T04:32:50Z loke: Brozo: he might be in Europe and woke up _really_ early. :-) 2015-04-23T04:35:41Z rvchangue_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-23T04:39:09Z Brozo: i wanted to see if he was still on loke 2015-04-23T04:42:10Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-23T04:46:56Z loke: Brozo: Seems like he went to sleep 2015-04-23T04:47:11Z fxck joined #lisp 2015-04-23T04:47:11Z fxck quit (Changing host) 2015-04-23T04:47:11Z fxck joined #lisp 2015-04-23T04:48:00Z fxck left #lisp 2015-04-23T04:48:34Z Brozo: loke an hour after waking up? 2015-04-23T04:48:48Z loke: Brozo: Yes. Likely. 2015-04-23T04:48:52Z loke: If he's lucky. 2015-04-23T04:49:19Z mogglebang joined #lisp 2015-04-23T04:49:24Z Brozo: I'm jealous 2015-04-23T04:50:49Z xiaoguo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-23T04:54:30Z loke: Me too 2015-04-23T04:55:05Z Petit_Dejeuner_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T04:55:23Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T04:55:48Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T04:55:50Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-23T05:08:13Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-23T05:08:49Z mega1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-23T05:15:02Z mogglebang quit (Quit: mogglebang) 2015-04-23T05:19:47Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-23T05:20:44Z replcated quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-23T05:21:54Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-23T05:24:09Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-23T05:26:22Z Slothel_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-23T05:26:24Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T05:27:44Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T05:30:20Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-04-23T05:31:09Z theseb left #lisp 2015-04-23T05:32:42Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-04-23T05:33:07Z replcated joined #lisp 2015-04-23T05:33:12Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2015-04-23T05:33:34Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-23T05:35:59Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T05:36:34Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-23T05:37:15Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T05:37:33Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T05:40:54Z sunwukong` joined #lisp 2015-04-23T05:43:14Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T05:44:26Z f3lp quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-23T05:45:46Z mbuf quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-23T05:47:58Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2015-04-23T05:48:13Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-04-23T05:48:59Z Pastaf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T05:50:33Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-04-23T05:55:01Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-23T05:55:59Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-23T05:59:01Z x1n4u joined #lisp 2015-04-23T06:00:26Z emaczen: is it possible to specify a keyword argument before a body argument in a macro? Lisp is telling me: &BODY after &KEY in DEFMACRO 2015-04-23T06:00:39Z Shinmera: Good morning, #lisp. 2015-04-23T06:00:48Z emaczen: morning Shinmera 2015-04-23T06:01:04Z SAL9000: emaczen: (defmacro foo ((bar &key baz) &body body) ...) 2015-04-23T06:01:29Z Bike: keys are part of the rest list, so no, i don't think you can 2015-04-23T06:01:44Z Shinmera is still exhausted. It's amazing what two days of listening and talking can do to energy reserves. 2015-04-23T06:01:49Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-04-23T06:01:51Z SAL9000: then call it as (foo (bar :baz bam) body) 2015-04-23T06:01:54Z xinau quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-23T06:01:57Z Brozo: sup Shinmera 2015-04-23T06:02:37Z Shinmera: Probably going to spend some time to type up an article on my ELS experience next. 2015-04-23T06:04:56Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-23T06:04:56Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-04-23T06:04:56Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-23T06:05:10Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-23T06:05:36Z pranavrc_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T06:06:24Z mateuszb joined #lisp 2015-04-23T06:07:29Z mateuszb_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-23T06:08:09Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-23T06:09:01Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-23T06:09:45Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-23T06:10:47Z jasom: Shinmera: so is radiance usable now? 2015-04-23T06:11:00Z jasom: by someone that isn't you, that is. 2015-04-23T06:11:32Z Shinmera: jasom: Depends on what you mean by 'usable'. 2015-04-23T06:12:10Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-04-23T06:16:04Z jasom: Shinmera: if I decided to use it for writing a webapp, what are the odds of me having a positive experience? 2015-04-23T06:16:24Z Shinmera: People have been able to deploy Reader and Purplish, so it is 'usable' in that degree. Using the existing modules and drivers as examples, it is very well possible to write your own, so it's 'usable'. There is no documentation and no specification yet, so it's not 'usable'. 2015-04-23T06:16:52Z Shinmera: jasom: I can't say because I haven't had any test subjects for that yet and can't determine that myself. 2015-04-23T06:16:52Z jasom: ah, got it. 2015-04-23T06:17:32Z Shinmera: My advice is still the same: Please wait for a while longer until I have at least some documentation and specification ready. 2015-04-23T06:17:58Z jasom: sounds good. 2015-04-23T06:18:39Z Shinmera: If you're interested, you can read through the blogs I wrote long ago, and take a peek at the sources. But yeah. I'm scared of people thinking it's unusable because there's no docs yet, so I don't want to risk them having that impression. :) 2015-04-23T06:22:13Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-23T06:26:07Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T06:29:11Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T06:29:50Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-23T06:30:55Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-04-23T06:31:56Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-23T06:32:47Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-04-23T06:33:46Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T06:34:55Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T06:36:14Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-23T06:39:59Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T06:40:15Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Nevermind. 2015-04-23T07:51:56Z Shinmera: It's unfortunately still quite far away from being a complete CL. 2015-04-23T07:51:57Z kephra: Slothel, common Lisp is a big standard - there will soon be a Scheme look like on the web, mostly r4rs compatible 2015-04-23T07:52:34Z Shinmera: Slothel: If your company permits SSH, you could set up a running server on your home computer and connect to that remotely with tunnelling. 2015-04-23T07:52:38Z angelo__ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T07:52:50Z kephra: Shinmera, *oh* a CL in JS 2015-04-23T07:53:25Z Slothel: Shinmera: That's not a half bad idea, but I'm not certain if we do or not. I'll have to ask. 2015-04-23T07:54:16Z Shinmera: Slothel: just probe your ports. 2015-04-23T07:54:49Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-23T07:54:56Z gniourf_gniourf quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-04-23T07:54:59Z kephra: or just use a local common lisp - clisp is pretty small, to fit on an USB android stick 2015-04-23T07:55:02Z Slothel: Shinmera: Heh :). I don't want to be pulled into some IT guy's office because I did something wrong though. Better to just ask 2015-04-23T07:55:13Z Slothel: Shinmera: But +1 fictional points for recommending that 2015-04-23T07:55:29Z kephra: insert USB stick - use a modem program to dial to COM0 - login to clisp 2015-04-23T07:55:54Z Shinmera: And yes, you could use a portable Emacs+CL environment. 2015-04-23T07:56:27Z kephra: Slothel, its always easier to get a medal and promotion afterwards, then permission before - thats how to become an Admiral ;-) 2015-04-23T07:57:08Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-04-23T08:01:54Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T08:03:31Z Zhivago: Wouldn't r7rs small make more sense? 2015-04-23T08:04:37Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-23T08:05:48Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T08:07:02Z Zhivago: Hmm, jscl doesn't seem to be very much of a CL. :) 2015-04-23T08:07:44Z kephra: i settled on r4rs because of the test suit, and bigger code base 2015-04-23T08:07:59Z Shinmera: Zhivago: well yeah. https://github.com/davazp/jscl/blob/master/CLHS.org 2015-04-23T08:10:03Z kcj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T08:10:59Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-23T08:11:02Z darthdeus joined #lisp 2015-04-23T08:11:31Z darthdeus: how would a lisp person call the thing that atoms/strings/numbers/lists are alltogether? 2015-04-23T08:11:50Z Zhivago: Stuff? 2015-04-23T08:11:54Z darthdeus: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Write_Yourself_a_Scheme_in_48_Hours/Parsing says LispVal, but I don't really like that 2015-04-23T08:12:09Z Zhivago: What is the use-case of this label? 2015-04-23T08:12:27Z Zhivago: If you're talking about parsing, then probably 'forms'. 2015-04-23T08:12:28Z darthdeus: for the name of a type for any lisp value 2015-04-23T08:12:42Z darthdeus: I thought form is just (foo bar baz)? 2015-04-23T08:12:47Z Shinmera: T is the supertype of all types. 2015-04-23T08:13:48Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-23T08:13:50Z harish_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-23T08:13:59Z jdz: darthdeus: symbolic expressions? 2015-04-23T08:14:08Z Zhivago: Then 'object' would be the official term. 2015-04-23T08:14:09Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T08:14:17Z Zhivago: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/26_glo_o.htm#object 2015-04-23T08:14:46Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-23T08:15:01Z Zhivago: But also see http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/26_glo_f.htm#form 2015-04-23T08:15:48Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-23T08:15:54Z darthdeus: hmmm, thanks guys 2015-04-23T08:16:29Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-23T08:16:55Z Shinmera: Also note that we're linking to the CLHS because this is a Common Lisp channel. Other lisp derivatives might use other terminology. 2015-04-23T08:17:26Z rvchangue_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T08:18:57Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-23T08:19:02Z kephra: darthdeus, throwing strings and symbol together gives a lisp 0 ... so throwing numbers into same string type would give a lisp -1 ... do you also want to define lists as strings? 2015-04-23T08:19:08Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T08:19:16Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-23T08:19:42Z darthdeus: kephra: no, I want to distinguish strings and symbols, basically what I'm supposed to do is write a scheme interpreter 2015-04-23T08:20:15Z Zhivago: kephra: What? Why would "throwing strings and symbols together give a lisp 0"? Are you gibbering? 2015-04-23T08:20:28Z darthdeus: though the most work on the project will be to implement the parser, so uhm, I guess it doesn't really matter that much how I define my evaluation strategy, since that'll be trivial to change 2015-04-23T08:21:27Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-04-23T08:21:54Z kephra: Zhivago, iirc, lisp 0 means one environment table, and strings=symbols (and immutable), lisp 1 one environment table strings != symbols, strings are mutable, lisp 2 two environement tables for variables and lambdas 2015-04-23T08:22:04Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-04-23T08:22:33Z kephra: e.g. common lisp is a lisp 2, scheme a lisp 1 2015-04-23T08:22:57Z Zhivago: kephra: So, in other words, your numbers are fundamentally meaningless? 2015-04-23T08:24:05Z kephra: i think the came from Richard Gabriel - but off now for a few hours 2015-04-23T08:24:20Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T08:25:57Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-23T08:26:05Z Zhivago: kephra: You'd better read the paper again, since you're misrepresenting it entirely. 2015-04-23T08:26:24Z Zhivago: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 2015-04-23T08:27:12Z Zhivago: Then it should be clear why lisp 0 and lisp -1 don't make any sense in that regard. 2015-04-23T08:27:44Z ecraven: lisp-0 is like lambda calculus, no names? 2015-04-23T08:28:42Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-23T08:28:46Z loke: ecraven: Unlambda! 2015-04-23T08:29:18Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-23T08:29:39Z Zhivago: ecraven: According to kephra it is the result of "throwing strings and symbol together". 2015-04-23T08:29:42Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T08:29:48Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T08:29:56Z loke: ecraven: So is pure lambda calculus is lisp-0, then lisp--1 would be Unlambda, i.e. pure combinatory logic 2015-04-23T08:30:10Z loke: Very neat language, in fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlambda 2015-04-23T08:30:38Z hitecnologys: How's ELS going? Are there going to be any photos and videos any time soon? 2015-04-23T08:31:49Z Shinmera: ELS isn't going anywhere since it's over. 2015-04-23T08:31:54Z hitecnologys: Ah. 2015-04-23T08:32:00Z Shinmera: There's a couple of photos on twitter if you browse the #els2015 hashtag. 2015-04-23T08:32:05Z Shinmera: Videos won't be up for some weeks. 2015-04-23T08:32:20Z hitecnologys: I see. Thanks for information. 2015-04-23T08:32:40Z Shinmera: I'm typing up an article of my experience as we speak, so you can look forward to that, too. 2015-04-23T08:33:27Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-23T08:34:10Z hitecnologys: Neat. I wish I could go there, talks seem to be interesting. 2015-04-23T08:34:51Z Shinmera: This one was a blast. Can't say about the others, but I'll almost definitely go again next year. 2015-04-23T08:36:24Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-04-23T08:36:56Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-23T08:37:31Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T08:39:13Z Shinmera: I'm saying almost since circumstances with university and so on could prove a hindrance. 2015-04-23T08:40:14Z mj-0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T08:40:24Z Denommus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T08:41:27Z hitecnologys: Does it always take place in April? 2015-04-23T08:41:41Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-23T08:41:54Z Shinmera: Just check the editions; it doesn't. 2015-04-23T08:42:16Z hitecnologys: Oh. 2015-04-23T08:42:24Z hitecnologys: Haven't thought of that. 2015-04-23T08:43:14Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T08:46:01Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-23T08:46:15Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2015-04-23T08:48:55Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-23T08:54:21Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-23T08:55:06Z gendl joined #lisp 2015-04-23T08:55:24Z mj-0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T08:55:55Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T08:57:31Z Xof: I'm blogging about it too 2015-04-23T08:57:56Z Xof: that will also go into the "not imminent" category :-( 2015-04-23T08:58:23Z Xof: (it is usually in early Springtime) 2015-04-23T08:58:26Z gendl quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-23T08:59:01Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-23T09:01:48Z d4ryus_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:04:46Z d4ryus__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-23T09:04:55Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:05:21Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:05:54Z Shinmera: I'm almost done writing up mine now. Probably going to be over 2500 words when I'm done. 2015-04-23T09:05:59Z intinig quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T09:08:24Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:09:20Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:09:54Z intinig quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T09:10:09Z splittist: I look forward to every one of them. 2015-04-23T09:10:38Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-23T09:11:14Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:11:18Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:11:21Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:11:39Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-23T09:16:00Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:16:59Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-23T09:17:25Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-23T09:18:30Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:19:01Z luis: same here 2015-04-23T09:19:33Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T09:19:45Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:20:05Z pjb: Bike: &keys are part of the &rest (or &body) list, so yes, you can. But with effect that now your body contains the &key arguments, and that it MUST be of even length, and that every odd expression must be a symbol. Have fun! 2015-04-23T09:20:08Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-23T09:20:22Z pjb: Bike: (also, you might want &allow-other-keys ;-)) 2015-04-23T09:20:49Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-23T09:20:49Z Ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T09:23:12Z Zhivago: Or perhaps just putting the &keys in a separate destructuring-bind call. 2015-04-23T09:25:04Z loke will deinitely go next year too, even though it's a 12 hours flight away 2015-04-23T09:25:44Z schjetne: Where was the next one supposed to be? Krakow? 2015-04-23T09:25:55Z |3b|` is now known as |3b| 2015-04-23T09:26:17Z jackdaniel: schjetne: yes 2015-04-23T09:26:43Z schjetne: I've heard nice things about that city 2015-04-23T09:27:38Z Shinmera found he wrote 2920 words. Time to grammar-check, prettify with pictures, and finally publish. 2015-04-23T09:28:11Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:28:14Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:30:16Z pjb: Slothel: http://hubble.informatimago.com:8116 2015-04-23T09:31:02Z pjb: Slothel: even at work, you should be able to install any software you want on your computer. If not, change job. 2015-04-23T09:31:32Z malbertife quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T09:31:42Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:32:01Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:32:31Z easye joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:32:41Z pjb: darthdeus: lisp objects, but that includes everything. 2015-04-23T09:33:13Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T09:34:16Z Niac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T09:35:20Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:35:40Z pjb: Zhivago: the right solution is to put keys in a sublist in the macro or destructuring lambda list, as indicated above. 2015-04-23T09:39:51Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T09:41:56Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-23T09:42:33Z theos quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T09:42:53Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T09:43:44Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:45:10Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-04-23T09:47:08Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:49:02Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:50:31Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:51:25Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T09:51:29Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:51:29Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-04-23T09:51:29Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:53:55Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:56:50Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2015-04-23T09:57:05Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-23T09:58:14Z vdamewood quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-04-23T10:03:46Z malbertife_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:03:53Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:04:10Z malbertife_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-23T10:06:05Z malbertife quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T10:07:30Z milosn_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:07:52Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:08:46Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:08:46Z michael_lee quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-23T10:09:36Z michael_lee joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:12:54Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T10:13:05Z milosn_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-23T10:13:37Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-23T10:14:07Z michael_lee quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-23T10:15:36Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-23T10:16:31Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T10:20:41Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-23T10:21:45Z angelo__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-23T10:21:55Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:23:15Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:26:39Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:27:35Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-23T10:31:19Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:34:43Z skulibj joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:34:48Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-23T10:35:08Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-23T10:37:30Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-23T10:39:27Z the_real_intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:39:46Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:40:21Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-23T10:40:44Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-23T10:41:54Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T10:42:22Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:42:53Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T10:44:30Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:45:29Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-23T10:46:39Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:46:43Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:47:10Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-23T10:50:19Z lisper29 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-23T10:50:32Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:52:55Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-04-23T10:53:52Z Shinmera: Well then, here you go. https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/318 2015-04-23T10:55:14Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:55:15Z foom joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:56:28Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:56:28Z pranavrc_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T10:57:36Z vi1 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:58:45Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-23T10:59:33Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-23T10:59:33Z cadadar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T10:59:47Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:03:28Z the_real_intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T11:04:45Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:05:38Z hlavaty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T11:08:02Z splittist: "Goldsmiths, University of London" 2015-04-23T11:08:41Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:08:45Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:09:11Z antoszka: :) 2015-04-23T11:09:51Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-23T11:12:48Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:12:50Z manfoo7 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:13:09Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T11:13:31Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:14:53Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:16:07Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:16:30Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:17:49Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:19:22Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: awesome, thanks. 2015-04-23T11:21:53Z jackdaniel: nice summary 2015-04-23T11:22:20Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:24:05Z milosn_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:25:19Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:25:38Z milosn_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T11:26:17Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T11:26:54Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:28:28Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:28:51Z lisper29 is now known as Guest23508 2015-04-23T11:29:23Z the_real_intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:29:52Z the_real_intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T11:30:48Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-23T11:31:51Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:32:38Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-04-23T11:32:53Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-23T11:37:27Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T11:37:29Z psy__ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:37:42Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:38:10Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T11:39:24Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T11:40:23Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:42:15Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:43:48Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-23T11:43:58Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-23T11:45:57Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:46:29Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-23T11:46:36Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-23T11:47:27Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:51:44Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-23T11:51:52Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-23T11:51:56Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:53:05Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:53:07Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:53:16Z Cymew: Thanks Shinmera! Great fun to read about it. 2015-04-23T11:54:10Z Shinmera: Glad you like it! 2015-04-23T11:54:19Z antoszka: Shinmera: yep, thanks, too 2015-04-23T11:55:44Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T11:56:29Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-23T11:57:53Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T11:58:45Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-23T11:59:41Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-23T12:01:56Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T12:02:00Z s1n4 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-23T12:02:06Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T12:03:13Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-04-23T12:08:09Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-23T12:08:20Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-23T12:10:15Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-23T12:11:02Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-23T12:12:16Z Jaskologist joined #lisp 2015-04-23T12:12:56Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T12:13:29Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-23T12:14:29Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-23T12:14:41Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T12:17:27Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-23T12:19:14Z arnaudga joined #lisp 2015-04-23T12:19:56Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-23T12:25:39Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T12:29:43Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-23T12:30:01Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-23T12:31:37Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-23T12:32:15Z antgreen quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-23T12:36:38Z psy__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-23T12:36:57Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-23T12:39:33Z skulibj quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T12:41:29Z peterhil quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T12:42:12Z ndrei quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-23T12:43:47Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-23T12:44:04Z moei joined #lisp 2015-04-23T12:46:38Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T12:48:59Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-23T12:49:24Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-23T12:49:54Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-23T12:49:57Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-04-23T12:50:09Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T12:51:40Z psy__ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T12:54:02Z arnaudga left #lisp 2015-04-23T12:54:22Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T12:56:14Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T12:57:03Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-23T12:57:29Z cwej joined #lisp 2015-04-23T13:00:25Z cwej quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-23T13:01:05Z cwej joined #lisp 2015-04-23T13:01:45Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-23T13:01:48Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2015-04-23T13:02:51Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-23T13:05:06Z pranavrc quit 2015-04-23T13:05:16Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-23T13:08:18Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-23T13:08:22Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-04-23T13:09:58Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T13:13:28Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-23T13:14:00Z hiroaki quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T13:14:00Z hiroakip quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T13:14:50Z kp666 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T13:14:59Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-04-23T13:15:16Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-23T13:15:21Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-23T13:15:35Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-04-23T13:16:57Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-23T13:18:10Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-23T13:19:32Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-23T13:23:51Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T13:24:59Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-04-23T13:25:40Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T13:26:16Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I have defined a function which takes rest arguments and at some point I want to define a variable which holds the rest arguments in a list. Now how can I use the list as a function argument, so that the list entries are used as the rest arguments of the function. By that I mean I want to expand the list into the function arguments, so that the list is not treated as a single argument, but that so that the list entries are evaluated 2015-04-23T13:56:06Z elimik: as arguments. I don't want to change the function definition, as I want to be able to call it the usual way with rest arguments. I want to know how I can call it with a list for the rest arguments. I hope it is clear. 2015-04-23T13:57:27Z zadock quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-23T13:57:44Z elimik: Is there a trivial way to do this? I feel like I am overlooking something. I guess this could be achieve by using a flatten function with clever backquoting 2015-04-23T13:57:56Z elimik: But there might be something better 2015-04-23T13:58:05Z spockokt: elimik: apply 2015-04-23T13:58:13Z spockokt: or at leaset. thats what it sounds like you want to do 2015-04-23T13:58:25Z spockokt: i.e. (apply #'somefunc list-of-arguments) 2015-04-23T13:58:43Z spockokt: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 2015-04-23T13:58:43Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-23T13:58:45Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-23T14:00:25Z spockokt: oops ment e.g. also 2015-04-23T14:00:31Z spockokt: hello #lisp 2015-04-23T14:03:21Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:04:07Z spockokt quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-23T14:04:28Z spockokt joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:04:36Z marvi quit (Changing host) 2015-04-23T14:04:36Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:05:15Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:05:38Z spockokt is now known as spockockt 2015-04-23T14:05:45Z spockockt is now known as spockokt 2015-04-23T14:06:57Z spockokt left #lisp 2015-04-23T14:09:02Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:10:15Z Guest23508 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-23T14:12:45Z failproofshark joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:12:49Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:14:04Z elimik: spockotl: Thanks, apply worked, somehow I forgot about it. Maybe should have asked in #cl-noobs 2015-04-23T14:14:16Z failproofshark: no problem 2015-04-23T14:14:23Z failproofshark: (sorry i'm spockokt, just changed nick) 2015-04-23T14:16:31Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-23T14:17:02Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:17:05Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:17:54Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:18:18Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:18:43Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-23T14:18:47Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-23T14:25:35Z Guest-Pirc joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:26:15Z Guest23508 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:26:22Z Guest23508 is now known as lisper29 2015-04-23T14:26:34Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:29:36Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:29:58Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T14:32:20Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:35:18Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-23T14:35:32Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:35:35Z billstclair: Christophe Rhodes provided the lisp code he used to create name badges for ELS 2015. I wrapped a defsystem around it and provided the font files: https://github.com/billstclair/defperson 2015-04-23T14:35:57Z billstclair: Originally Faré’s code? 2015-04-23T14:37:37Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:38:20Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-23T14:39:38Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:40:35Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-23T14:41:05Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:41:19Z MightyJoe is now known as cyraxjoe 2015-04-23T14:43:58Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:49:07Z Cymew quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-23T14:49:22Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:51:12Z kvsari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T14:51:18Z rhllor joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:51:20Z cadadar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T14:51:31Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-23T14:55:37Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-23T14:58:33Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:00:07Z elimik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T15:01:39Z justicefries_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:01:50Z justicefries quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-23T15:01:52Z justicefries_ is now known as justicefries 2015-04-23T15:02:05Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-23T15:02:14Z justicefries_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:03:45Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-23T15:05:37Z f3lp joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:05:59Z tmh_ quit (Quit: Caught deadly signal: SIGSLEEP) 2015-04-23T15:08:51Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-23T15:11:09Z tmh_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:11:36Z khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 2015-04-23T15:12:24Z a2015 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-23T15:12:26Z Xof: billstclair: no, all mine 2015-04-23T15:12:52Z Xof: MIT licence is fine 2015-04-23T15:13:05Z billstclair: There were no credits in the file. Shall I add a LICENSE file with Copyright you? 2015-04-23T15:13:22Z Xof: if you like 2015-04-23T15:13:35Z billstclair: ‘fraid I don’t know who Xof is in the real world. 2015-04-23T15:13:49Z Xof: "Christophe Rhodes" 2015-04-23T15:13:54Z billstclair: heh 2015-04-23T15:13:55Z billstclair: ok 2015-04-23T15:14:01Z Ethan- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T15:14:01Z billstclair: Will add 2015-04-23T15:14:04Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-23T15:14:35Z cwej quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-23T15:15:00Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-23T15:15:03Z splittist: Like anyone really has the name "Christophe Rhodes"... 2015-04-23T15:17:29Z Xof: I know, ridiculous 2015-04-23T15:18:24Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:19:22Z billstclair: Xof: https://github.com/billstclair/defperson/commit/3cc8e959687bd4c40bde61880fc0b5f6f84537b1 2015-04-23T15:20:36Z Shinmera: Xof: Aside from the bigger font you already mentioned on the blog (and apparently fixed), it'd be nice if there was a field for the IRC nickname and/or twitter handle. 2015-04-23T15:21:21Z Guest-Pirc quit (Quit: Guest-Pirc) 2015-04-23T15:21:38Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:22:33Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:22:47Z chenjf joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:23:49Z marsjaninzmarsa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-23T15:23:57Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-23T15:24:16Z Xof: exercise for the reader 2015-04-23T15:24:31Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:24:40Z Xof: we didn't collect that information in the registration form, so I couldn't put it on the badge 2015-04-23T15:24:55Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:25:07Z Xof: also, since I'm unlikely to organize another Lisp conference for the next 8 years or so: I leave that to my worthy successors 2015-04-23T15:25:39Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-23T15:26:14Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T15:27:12Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-23T15:28:05Z Shinmera: Do you know who's likely to organise the next one? 2015-04-23T15:28:16Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-23T15:29:09Z pprzggrt joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:29:10Z cadadar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T15:29:17Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:29:19Z marvi quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-23T15:29:23Z Xof: I can't remember the name 2015-04-23T15:29:36Z Xof: someone in Kraków 2015-04-23T15:30:10Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:30:15Z Shinmera has been thinking of writing a new website layout for ELS (for free), but wouldn't know if such an offer would even get accepted. 2015-04-23T15:30:46Z Xof: Maybe. Talk to Didier about that. What would be the avantage? 2015-04-23T15:31:12Z marsjaninzmarsa joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:31:18Z Shinmera: Well the current one is almost completely broken on mobile, for instance and has a few rather unfortunate design decisions, imo. 2015-04-23T15:31:22Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:31:23Z marvi quit (Changing host) 2015-04-23T15:31:23Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:31:40Z splittist: It may be a difficult conversation. 'Your web design sucks; mind if I re-write it?' 2015-04-23T15:31:53Z jackdaniel: lol 2015-04-23T15:32:20Z Shinmera: I was /trying/ to put it in the form of "Hey I could just write a thing and you can look at it and say no if you want." 2015-04-23T15:32:49Z jdz: well, my friend did remake the haskell.org website, and now it's the official one 2015-04-23T15:33:16Z Shinmera shrugs and obviously isn't a master at delicate social exchange. 2015-04-23T15:34:07Z Shinmera: I just don't know what the policy is regarding that, so I thought I might ask if I wouldn't be just completely wasting my time. 2015-04-23T15:34:25Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-23T15:34:45Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:34:52Z faheem_: Shinmera: sounds like a good idea. do you do a lot of web dev stuff? 2015-04-23T15:35:09Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:35:21Z Shinmera: faheem_: I've written all of my sites so far and like to analyse that kind of stuff. I don't know for how much that counts. 2015-04-23T15:35:48Z Shinmera: The blog you're probably still reading at the moment is an example. 2015-04-23T15:37:32Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T15:37:52Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:39:02Z killmaster quit (Quit: Bye!) 2015-04-23T15:39:33Z killmaster joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:40:28Z faheem_: Shinmera: I finished reading it. Is the design code in CL? And is it public? 2015-04-23T15:40:52Z Shinmera: you're reading a webpage, so it's HTML and CSS by necessity. 2015-04-23T15:40:58Z Shinmera: But yes to both regardless. 2015-04-23T15:41:09Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shirakumo/reader 2015-04-23T15:41:17Z killmaster quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-23T15:41:40Z psy__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-23T15:42:03Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T15:42:17Z killmaster joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:42:29Z psy__ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:43:17Z Xof: Shinmera: I had noticed the rubbishness on mobile 2015-04-23T15:43:48Z Xof: I think some constraints might be that all existing URLs continue to return semantically the same stuff 2015-04-23T15:44:13Z Xof: but I think the original design isn't Didier's anyway, it's Edgar Goncalvez's 2015-04-23T15:44:15Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:44:19Z Xof: so it's less likely that Didier will be offended 2015-04-23T15:44:39Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-23T15:45:42Z Shinmera: Ok. I'll think about it then. 2015-04-23T15:47:59Z a2015 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:51:52Z chenjf quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-23T15:52:35Z Saigut joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:53:07Z lisper29 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-23T15:53:32Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:56:09Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-23T15:57:12Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-23T15:58:47Z redeemed quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-23T15:59:36Z failproofshark: Shinmera: not sure if you were thinking of doing a mobile/responsive layout, but if you were perhaps you could suggest that such a layout would be beneficial to the growing number of mobile users? 2015-04-23T16:00:24Z Shinmera: failproofshark: If I do make one it'll definitely also be optimised to work well enough on mobiles. And yes. 2015-04-23T16:01:50Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:03:39Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-23T16:04:35Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:06:18Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T16:06:58Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-23T16:08:02Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:08:40Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T16:10:55Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:11:34Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-04-23T16:12:14Z fe[nl]ix: before Edgar took over, the site was completely different and I don't think anyone noticed the change of URLs 2015-04-23T16:12:15Z cadadar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T16:12:36Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T16:12:44Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:12:46Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: if you can make a mobile-friendly site, that would be most excellent 2015-04-23T16:12:58Z fe[nl]ix: the current one was barely useable on my smartphone 2015-04-23T16:13:08Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:13:12Z BRPocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T16:13:29Z BRPocock joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:13:33Z skulibj joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:13:53Z cwej joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:14:23Z vi1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T16:15:26Z Shinmera: Alright. 2015-04-23T16:16:22Z s1n4 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:16:38Z Petit_Dejeuner_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T16:17:09Z fe[nl]ix: the site doesn't really have links that need to be valid from one year to the next 2015-04-23T16:17:35Z Shinmera: Links are also orthogonal to the layout. 2015-04-23T16:17:46Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-23T16:17:52Z fe[nl]ix: that's true 2015-04-23T16:21:09Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-23T16:21:25Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:21:29Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:21:56Z vap1 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:21:56Z vap1 quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-23T16:22:37Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:27:42Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:28:33Z rejerson69 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:30:42Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:31:08Z Xof: anyway, in summary: I think your offer of contribution would be welcome 2015-04-23T16:31:47Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:33:51Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:34:38Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-23T16:34:41Z pyon quit (Quit: Sie ist der hellste Stern von allen, und wird nie vom Himmel fallen.) 2015-04-23T16:35:02Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-23T16:35:40Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:39:19Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:49:30Z constantinexvi joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:49:41Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-23T16:50:41Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-04-23T16:52:55Z Qudit314159 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T16:53:35Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:56:37Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-23T16:57:46Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-23T16:57:49Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:00:37Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:01:59Z failproofshark: Xach: i apologize for mentioning here if it's off topic, but you mentioned that somewrite is hiring in a tweet. Would you happen to know if they hiring in japan only (or only hiring people fluent in Japanese)? 2015-04-23T17:02:40Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:02:44Z Shinmera: failproofshark: https://twitter.com/nitro_idiot/status/590632406614433793 2015-04-23T17:03:19Z failproofshark: Shinmera: thank you 2015-04-23T17:03:33Z failproofshark sings up for a twitter account 2015-04-23T17:03:36Z failproofshark: *signs 2015-04-23T17:08:04Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:09:46Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-23T17:16:21Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:17:05Z oleo is now known as Guest12971 2015-04-23T17:17:26Z oleo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T17:17:51Z shka joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:18:24Z Guest12971 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-23T17:18:32Z kami joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:18:40Z kami: Hello #lisp 2015-04-23T17:19:22Z ynniv joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:19:42Z disinclined joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:20:51Z jackdaniel: kami: hey o/ 2015-04-23T17:21:49Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:21:55Z ynniv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T17:22:11Z ynniv joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:22:58Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:24:22Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-23T17:26:14Z ewiltshi joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:28:04Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:29:56Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:32:16Z d4ryus_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-23T17:33:20Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:35:12Z trinque joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:36:24Z lisper29 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-23T17:38:20Z mogglebang joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:40:03Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-23T17:42:02Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:42:35Z faheem_: The graphs in Xach's slides look a bit strange. 2015-04-23T17:43:22Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-23T17:43:27Z innertracks1 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:43:56Z rhllor quit (Quit: rhllor) 2015-04-23T17:44:00Z faheem_: If there are points, I'm not seeing them. let me try downloading. 2015-04-23T17:44:26Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-23T17:45:17Z Longlius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-23T17:45:27Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-23T17:46:23Z faheem_: looks ok once downloaded 2015-04-23T17:46:47Z fitzsim joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:46:54Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T17:48:15Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:48:37Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:49:08Z pyon is now known as Guest25075 2015-04-23T17:50:01Z Guest25075 quit (Changing host) 2015-04-23T17:50:01Z Guest25075 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:50:57Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:51:08Z Guest25075 quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-23T17:51:25Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:52:18Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:52:47Z BRPocock: yes, I think GitHub previewer ate the slides badly 2015-04-23T17:53:55Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T17:55:07Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T17:57:08Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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(like rails view system; with partials and layouts and helpers) 2015-04-23T18:26:22Z dilated_dinosaur: cl-who looks cool- but it gets contrived when you want to do more complicated things like rendering a page within another 2015-04-23T18:26:39Z jasom: dilated_dinosaur: what issuese do you have rendering a page within another? 2015-04-23T18:28:01Z jasom: dilated_dinosaur: cl-emb is a fairly traditional style templating engine, but I prefer cl-who personally 2015-04-23T18:28:06Z jasom: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/cl-emb/examples.html 2015-04-23T18:28:39Z pjb: dilated_dinosaur: better asked in #lispweb 2015-04-23T18:28:47Z jasom: pjb: really? 2015-04-23T18:28:52Z pjb: really 2015-04-23T18:28:58Z pjb: http://cliki.net/IRC 2015-04-23T18:29:04Z a2015 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-23T18:29:06Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-23T18:30:07Z dilated_dinosaur: ah, okay. thanks ;) 2015-04-23T18:30:10Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-23T18:30:50Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-23T18:30:50Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-04-23T18:30:50Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-23T18:31:04Z jasom doesn't see the point of splitting off topics like that; it's not like this is a high-volume channel 2015-04-23T18:31:07Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-23T18:31:50Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-23T18:32:44Z ggole quit 2015-04-23T18:33:17Z alusion quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-04-23T18:36:54Z nydel: i'm getting "polling /tmp/slime.something" in emacs mini-buffer after executing "slime" in there.. it keeps counting until i M-x slime-abort-connection ... i'm not familiar with this, what might be going on? 2015-04-23T18:37:03Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T18:37:25Z BRPocock: usually slime/swank versions mis-match 2015-04-23T18:39:00Z nydel: BRPocock: that sounds like something that would do this. odd because i just installed slime from ubuntu 14.10 repositories on a clean distribution instance. manual slime it is 2015-04-23T18:39:01Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-04-23T18:39:16Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T18:39:40Z lisper29 is now known as Guest71833 2015-04-23T18:40:13Z jasom: nydel: I can recommend the quicklisp slime helper 2015-04-23T18:40:18Z nydel: oh wait can i do slime/swank from emacs packages 2015-04-23T18:40:25Z BRPocock: I use the Quicklisp-provided ones. But have seen it before. Sometimes you can manually supply the PID. 2015-04-23T18:40:26Z jasom: that works too 2015-04-23T18:40:45Z nydel: ii forgot about that jasom thanks 2015-04-23T18:41:23Z jasom: but slime and swank aren't actually separate programs; they are a single program written in two languages, and having them not in sync breaks things 2015-04-23T18:41:41Z nydel: i have no autocomplete or a second, is it (ql:install-slime-helper) or something like that 2015-04-23T18:42:17Z jasom: nydel: (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper) 2015-04-23T18:42:33Z jasom: it will print instructions 2015-04-23T18:42:35Z nydel: separate package, right. thank you 2015-04-23T18:44:28Z Guest71833 left #lisp 2015-04-23T18:44:36Z vibs29 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T18:46:28Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-23T18:46:39Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-04-23T18:47:47Z s1n4 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-23T18:48:15Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-23T18:51:46Z pjb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T18:52:02Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-04-23T18:54:08Z emaczen: Is there a function to remove elements from the front of a vector? I see that you can remove the last element of a vector with a fill-pointer using vector-pop. I'm really looking for "rest/cdr" for vectors. 2015-04-23T18:54:34Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-23T18:55:01Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-04-23T18:55:40Z jasom: emaczen: it's probably just as fast to do (subseq vector 1) 2015-04-23T18:56:10Z jasom: emaczen: you can use displaced arrays, but those are so slow, that unless you are worried about heap size, just copying will likely work better 2015-04-23T18:56:47Z emaczen: jasom: cool, I forgot to look in the sequences section.. 2015-04-23T18:57:14Z jasom: emaczen: unlike cdr, the result of subseq won't share structure with the original one 2015-04-23T18:58:14Z jasom: and shared structure is the primary advantage singly-linked lists have over vectors 2015-04-23T18:58:39Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-23T19:00:26Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-04-23T19:02:10Z nydel: ( i had forgotten to update my .emacs to include the melpa repositories. is why i was having a hard time. ) 2015-04-23T19:02:14Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-04-23T19:02:14Z malbertife quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-23T19:02:24Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-23T19:05:11Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T19:06:39Z karswell` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-23T19:11:15Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-23T19:14:11Z vibs29 left #lisp 2015-04-23T19:14:21Z lisper29` joined #lisp 2015-04-23T19:16:23Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-23T19:16:59Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T19:20:20Z oGMo: jasom: wait, why would displaced arrays be slow? 2015-04-23T19:21:18Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T19:21:37Z pjb: they're not. 2015-04-23T19:21:55Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T19:22:10Z oGMo: they really shouldn't be, unless there's some obscure internal reason, but at least IME that's not the case with sbcl 2015-04-23T19:22:17Z pjb: of course, they imply some indirection, but they're faster than what you would do yourself. 2015-04-23T19:22:48Z oGMo: they should certainly be faster than copying for some minimum size 2015-04-23T19:23:02Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-23T19:24:30Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-04-23T19:28:00Z Grue`: yeah, I used them once because my use case involved literally generating every substring of a given string but I'm still not sure if it was worth it or not 2015-04-23T19:28:39Z serichsen joined #lisp 2015-04-23T19:28:51Z serichsen: Good evening! 2015-04-23T19:29:53Z f3lp quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-23T19:31:27Z marsjaninzmarsa` joined #lisp 2015-04-23T19:31:27Z marsjaninzmarsa is now known as Guest36138 2015-04-23T19:31:56Z shka: hey 2015-04-23T19:32:05Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-04-23T19:32:17Z shka: does setf guaranteens left to right evaluation? 2015-04-23T19:33:53Z BRPocock: yes 2015-04-23T19:34:04Z BRPocock: psetf ≈ let* 2015-04-23T19:34:34Z BRPocock: err, setf ≈ let*, psetf ≈ let, rather. 2015-04-23T19:34:56Z marsjaninzmarsa` is now known as marsjaninzmarsa 2015-04-23T19:35:41Z jackdaniel: does let / let* work on places? 2015-04-23T19:36:05Z BRPocock: no, just meaning the effects, serial v. parallel 2015-04-23T19:36:08Z serses joined #lisp 2015-04-23T19:36:11Z jackdaniel: oh, ok 2015-04-23T19:36:54Z Guest36138 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T19:38:52Z BRPocock: The "historical precedents" thing w.r.t. those came up in cv. Clojure at work the other day. let/let*, flet/labels, setf/psetf, &c. Kinda confusing to learn :-) 2015-04-23T19:41:27Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-23T19:41:58Z gniourf_gniourf joined #lisp 2015-04-23T19:43:37Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-23T19:46:15Z f3lp joined #lisp 2015-04-23T19:46:38Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T19:51:30Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-23T19:51:36Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-23T19:53:41Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-04-23T19:54:29Z ecraven: ah, I really wish there were *any* Scheme as stable, fast and with a decent FFI like basically *any* lisp :-/ 2015-04-23T19:54:35Z ecraven: s/lisp/common lisp/ 2015-04-23T19:55:42Z ruste joined #lisp 2015-04-23T19:56:02Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-23T19:56:51Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-23T19:57:32Z nyef: ecraven: Does Racket not count? 2015-04-23T19:58:14Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T20:00:38Z Patzy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T20:00:46Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-23T20:00:49Z _sjs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T20:07:38Z ecraven: nyef: "fast" :) 2015-04-23T20:08:01Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T20:08:11Z nyef: "Two out of three ain't bad"? 2015-04-23T20:08:29Z ecraven: nyef: the obvious answer is, just use CL instead of looking for a Scheme :-) 2015-04-23T20:10:12Z nyef: Maybe. The other possible answer is that you haven't entered the Orbit of a good Scheme compiler yet. d-: 2015-04-23T20:10:36Z ecraven: Someone(TM) should write a Scheme->CL compiler :p 2015-04-23T20:12:24Z nyef: And what about the Scheme->C compilers, are they also not fast, or is it that their FFI sucks? 2015-04-23T20:12:43Z ecraven: I haven't found one yet that handles struct parameters well (tried chicken and gambit) 2015-04-23T20:12:59Z ecraven: racket seems to work for this at least :) 2015-04-23T20:14:58Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2015-04-23T20:15:47Z nyef: There's also the option of getting into hacking a Scheme implementation yourself. 2015-04-23T20:16:12Z ecraven: nyef: I've been pondering that for years, but I'm not sure I would do any better than all those before me 2015-04-23T20:16:19Z ecraven: (probably a lot worse than many :) 2015-04-23T20:16:40Z ecraven: though it would be great to have an llvm-based implementation that generated ffi code on-the-fly 2015-04-23T20:17:48Z nyef: Oh! A Scheme version of Clasp? 2015-04-23T20:18:27Z oGMo: isn't clasp more cl-to-c++, or is it more direct to llvm now? 2015-04-23T20:18:41Z ecraven: I've played with ideas, but it seems non-trivial to map Scheme (and CL for that matter) constructs onto llvm 2015-04-23T20:20:19Z shka: oGMo: it is cl to llvm, but with strong emphasis on C++ interation 2015-04-23T20:20:23Z shka: and i love the idea 2015-04-23T20:20:45Z drmeister: oGMo: clasp is and has always been cl to llvm-ir 2015-04-23T20:20:46Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T20:20:59Z oGMo: drmeister: ah, i was under the impression it was more like ECL 2015-04-23T20:21:34Z drmeister: No, it only shares some ecl common lisp code but not the compiler. 2015-04-23T20:21:43Z oGMo: cool 2015-04-23T20:21:49Z yrdz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T20:22:41Z drmeister: Clasp calls the llvm c++ API directly using its c++ interoperation capabilities 2015-04-23T20:23:04Z shka: which is INSANLY good idea imho 2015-04-23T20:23:16Z f3lp quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-23T20:23:59Z drmeister: shka: agreed 2015-04-23T20:24:03Z oGMo: yeah .. you can't really interact with C++ without getting the C++ compiler involved at some point 2015-04-23T20:25:05Z shka: well it is not even C++ compiler 2015-04-23T20:25:17Z shka: well, strictly speaking 2015-04-23T20:25:38Z drmeister: oGMo: I also exposed the clang compiler c++ API which gives clasp a super power, it can parse and analyze c++ code - that's where my previous query came from. 2015-04-23T20:25:50Z oGMo: drmeister: handy 2015-04-23T20:26:11Z shka: drmeister: would it be possible to interact with, let's say objective C? 2015-04-23T20:26:54Z drmeister: Yes, it's trivial. Clang is an objective C compiler. 2015-04-23T20:27:29Z shka: ok 2015-04-23T20:27:34Z shka: that's what i thought 2015-04-23T20:27:43Z shka: what about other llvm compilers? 2015-04-23T20:28:17Z drmeister: I can inter operate with them all modulo calling conventions 2015-04-23T20:28:31Z Fare: drmeister, what's your current speed bottleneck? 2015-04-23T20:28:47Z Fare: can you submit cl-launch support at some point? Should be mostly identical to ecl support 2015-04-23T20:28:53Z disinclined quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-23T20:29:04Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-04-23T20:29:09Z drmeister: Fare - ask me in a couple of weeks because I know how to fix it. 2015-04-23T20:29:42Z shka: anyway 2015-04-23T20:29:42Z drmeister: ^re speed bottleneck 2015-04-23T20:29:55Z Fare: drmeister, aren't you speaking in NYC in August? I'll ask you then! 2015-04-23T20:29:58Z drmeister: Cl-launch - sure 2015-04-23T20:30:09Z Jaskologist quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-23T20:30:13Z Fare: also lisp-invocation.asd 2015-04-23T20:30:13Z drmeister: Fare: yes 2015-04-23T20:30:27Z shka: drmeister: congratulations on your project, best thing in common lisp world since a long time 2015-04-23T20:30:44Z shka: i would love to contribute, somehow ;-) 2015-04-23T20:30:57Z drmeister: s/#+ecl/#+clasp/g 2015-04-23T20:30:59Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-04-23T20:31:10Z Fare: shka: I'm sure there's an infinite-length list of TODO items for you to contribute! 2015-04-23T20:31:34Z shka: Fare: my cl skills are limited 2015-04-23T20:31:34Z eudoxia: good news everyone, travis tests for CommonQt: https://travis-ci.org/eudoxia0/commonqt 2015-04-23T20:31:35Z drmeister: shka: come to #clasp and we can talk more 2015-04-23T20:31:54Z shka: and i know like ZERO about compilers 2015-04-23T20:32:02Z shka: drmeister: oh, you have your own channel, great 2015-04-23T20:32:09Z drmeister: So did I a year ago. 2015-04-23T20:32:16Z shka: but today, i would rather go to bed 2015-04-23T20:32:27Z drmeister: I'm a bit tied up today. 2015-04-23T20:32:46Z Fare: shka: that's how you learn 2015-04-23T20:33:06Z sz0 quit (Quit: Bye.) 2015-04-23T20:33:10Z shka: drmeister: ok, so i'm really interested but i have crazy drop week at work 2015-04-23T20:33:44Z shka: so not able to contribute this month at all 2015-04-23T20:36:04Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-23T20:37:14Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-04-23T20:37:39Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2015-04-23T20:37:41Z f3lp joined #lisp 2015-04-23T20:39:47Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2015-04-23T20:39:49Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-23T20:39:50Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-23T20:43:08Z Shinmera: eudoxia: Now do qtools and all the rest of my projects too. tia. 2015-04-23T20:43:58Z eudoxia: hmmmm i might 2015-04-23T20:44:14Z Shinmera: If that's fun to you, then I have no objections. 2015-04-23T20:44:22Z eudoxia: qtools i mean, for the others you're gonna have to write more unit tests ;ooooo #burn 2015-04-23T20:44:31Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-23T20:44:33Z Shinmera: Qtools doesn't have unit tests either. 2015-04-23T20:45:16Z eudoxia: ayy lmao 2015-04-23T20:45:25Z Shinmera: My unit test is "does it compile without warnings" 2015-04-23T20:45:35Z pprzggrt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T20:46:05Z eudoxia: hmm i guess a .travis.yml with (asdf:compile-system :qtools :force t) would be a start 2015-04-23T20:46:39Z Shinmera: Just to note: I don't have anything against unit tests, in fact I'd like many of my projects to have them, but it's such a low priority issue to me that I hardly ever get to it. 2015-04-23T20:47:08Z eudoxia: i guess i do TDD without explicitly meaning to 2015-04-23T20:49:33Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T20:49:55Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-04-23T20:50:13Z dfrank quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-23T20:52:13Z nell joined #lisp 2015-04-23T20:52:28Z sunwukong` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-23T20:53:24Z nyef: I do TDD sometimes, and other times it's far too much effort to figure out how to write a test for what I'm trying to express. 2015-04-23T20:54:07Z kami` joined #lisp 2015-04-23T20:56:04Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-23T20:59:09Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-23T21:00:52Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-04-23T21:00:53Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2015-04-23T21:03:47Z PuercoPop: Sometimes you can steal the Tests from another project. ej, from gunicorn what are valid or invalid http requests when writing an http parser 2015-04-23T21:03:55Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-04-23T21:06:04Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-23T21:07:08Z marsjaninzmarsa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-23T21:21:56Z lisper29` quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-23T21:22:38Z QualityAddict quit 2015-04-23T21:27:23Z dfrank joined #lisp 2015-04-23T21:28:40Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T21:29:26Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-04-23T21:32:05Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-23T21:34:49Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-23T21:35:10Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-23T21:36:27Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-23T21:38:11Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-23T21:38:20Z Slothel quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-23T21:38:47Z Slothel joined #lisp 2015-04-23T21:38:57Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-23T21:39:16Z Slothel quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-23T21:39:26Z SLothel joined #lisp 2015-04-23T21:39:38Z SLothel: Anyone here have experience with SlimV? 2015-04-23T21:39:43Z css106420_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T21:39:46Z SLothel: My emacs crashes Xorg currently so I cant use it 2015-04-23T21:39:55Z SLothel: I've decided to use vim, just want to know how slimv compares to Slime 2015-04-23T21:42:26Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-04-23T21:42:34Z fikusz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-23T21:43:59Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T21:44:07Z arnaudga joined #lisp 2015-04-23T21:44:54Z fikusz joined #lisp 2015-04-23T21:45:14Z selat quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T21:45:19Z lisper29` joined #lisp 2015-04-23T21:45:28Z lisper29` is now known as lisper29 2015-04-23T21:46:53Z f3lp quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-23T21:48:13Z axion: it compares well. does everything you'd expect it to 2015-04-23T21:49:29Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T21:49:48Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-23T21:51:20Z didi-ng joined #lisp 2015-04-23T21:51:33Z kami` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-23T21:51:33Z nell quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-23T21:54:34Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-04-23T21:54:46Z didi-ng: I usually use `#:package-name' in (in-package #:package-name). clhs says `in-package' should have a string as an argument. Am I doing something wrong? 2015-04-23T21:56:01Z axion: you could use either a keyword or a string. same thing for asdf/quicklisp 2015-04-23T21:56:02Z didi-ng: Aaah. "string designator". 2015-04-23T21:56:45Z didi-ng: axion: It can also be a symbol. 2015-04-23T21:56:51Z gniourf_gniourf: spec says string designator: string designator n. a designator for a string; that is, an object that denotes a string and that is one of: a character (denoting a singleton string that has the character as its only element), a symbol (denoting the string that is its name), or a string (denoting itself). 2015-04-23T21:57:06Z didi-ng: gniourf_gniourf: Right. 2015-04-23T21:57:26Z didi-ng: Mystery solved. 2015-04-23T21:57:32Z gniourf_gniourf: :) 2015-04-23T21:58:19Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-23T21:59:33Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T21:59:36Z nyef: Hunh. If you (make-package #\:), |:|::|:| is valid syntax. 2015-04-23T22:00:15Z gniourf_gniourf: yeah 2015-04-23T22:00:27Z gniourf_gniourf: not a good idea, though 2015-04-23T22:00:32Z Pastaf joined #lisp 2015-04-23T22:00:39Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-23T22:01:31Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-23T22:02:08Z Brozo quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-04-23T22:02:29Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-23T22:02:46Z Brozo quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-23T22:02:50Z Vutral_ joined #lisp 2015-04-23T22:03:07Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-23T22:03:48Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-23T22:03:54Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-23T22:04:06Z SLothel: does slimv work with gvim? it's supposed to autoload whenever i create a .lisp file but it's not 2015-04-23T22:05:32Z antoszka: maybe your gvim is not configured to load the same init files as vim? 2015-04-23T22:05:36Z antoszka: (just guessin') 2015-04-23T22:05:48Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-23T22:05:51Z SLothel: yeah, i thought so too, so I checked and it is 2015-04-23T22:05:56Z SLothel: perhaps it has something to do with python 2015-04-23T22:06:23Z axion: i'd suspect an improper install 2015-04-23T22:06:32Z gniourf_gniourf: how did you install it? did you use a package manager? 2015-04-23T22:06:38Z SLothel: gvim or slimv? 2015-04-23T22:06:42Z gniourf_gniourf: slimv 2015-04-23T22:06:45Z SLothel: slimv I just copied the github repo 2015-04-23T22:06:50Z gniourf_gniourf: where? 2015-04-23T22:06:52Z SLothel: put it in my vimfiles 2015-04-23T22:06:55Z SLothel: ~/.vim 2015-04-23T22:07:13Z SLothel: ~/.vim/slimv 2015-04-23T22:07:18Z gniourf_gniourf: no 2015-04-23T22:07:19Z axion: i would suggest using a vim plugin manager to do it properly while not polluting your directory 2015-04-23T22:07:27Z axion: that is not correct 2015-04-23T22:07:37Z gniourf_gniourf: you need slimv.vim in ftplugin for autoloading 2015-04-23T22:07:43Z SLothel: ah okay 2015-04-23T22:07:45Z SLothel: thanks guys 2015-04-23T22:07:52Z gniourf_gniourf: better do what axion said, really! 2015-04-23T22:07:56Z gniourf_gniourf: use a plugin manager! 2015-04-23T22:08:03Z SLothel: I will, in the future 2015-04-23T22:08:07Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2015-04-23T22:08:09Z SLothel: for right now I jsut want to get this working 2015-04-23T22:08:12Z axion: check out vim-plug 2015-04-23T22:08:26Z angavrilov quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-23T22:08:31Z SLothel: hmmm, I don't have an ftplugin 2015-04-23T22:08:39Z SLothel: this gets more and more interesting every second 2015-04-23T22:08:40Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-04-23T22:08:42Z axion: it is simply one line then boom slimv is installed 2015-04-23T22:08:44Z SLothel: guess I'll create one 2015-04-23T22:08:54Z gniourf_gniourf: use a plugin manager, really 2015-04-23T22:09:02Z SLothel: axion: Is vim-plug included in vim by default or do I need to install it? 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People here have some ridiculous uptimes for Emacs. 2015-04-23T23:59:25Z Slothel: pillton: I know there's something wrong, but I've troubleshooted everything obvious and submitted logs on the arch forums and no one can figure it out 2015-04-23T23:59:52Z Saigut quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-23T23:59:53Z Slothel: pillton: I could try downgrading my Xorg version or changing the driver but it's a lot of work 2015-04-24T00:00:17Z Bike: unlike learning vim :p 2015-04-24T00:00:41Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-24T00:01:13Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-24T00:01:56Z pillton: Slothel: Or you could use a different distribution. 2015-04-24T00:02:37Z Bike: well, that's more work 2015-04-24T00:03:29Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-04-24T00:03:29Z Slothel: Bike: Sure, but learning vim is work I enjoy doing, doing a bunch of maintenance is not 2015-04-24T00:03:34Z pillton: E(different distribution) < E(learning vim) < E(downgrading Xorg and changing driver) 2015-04-24T00:03:35Z Bike: fair 2015-04-24T00:04:09Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-24T00:04:17Z pillton: That is just my opinion, but I am old and grumpy. 2015-04-24T00:04:37Z jasom: I'm not old yet, I'm just grumpy. 2015-04-24T00:04:42Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-24T00:04:45Z Saigut joined #lisp 2015-04-24T00:05:02Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-04-24T00:05:18Z Bike: mostly i'm just struck by how incomprehensible emacs crashing xorg is, it's hardly a fancy graphical program 2015-04-24T00:05:40Z Slothel: Bike: to be fair, libreoffice does it as well 2015-04-24T00:05:45Z Slothel: Bike: so it's not emacs specific 2015-04-24T00:05:49Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-24T00:06:33Z Bike: oh, that makes way more sense. i don't think you mentioned that last time i was paying attention 2015-04-24T00:06:50Z C6248 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T00:07:00Z jasom: Slothel: you could disable all hw acceleration perhaps? 2015-04-24T00:07:37Z jasom: turn of DRI, &ct 2015-04-24T00:07:42Z Slothel: jasom: yeah, thanks for the suggestion, but I alreadyd id that 2015-04-24T00:07:44Z Slothel: *Did 2015-04-24T00:08:00Z jasom: yeah, it helped with me, but it still crashed, just less often 2015-04-24T00:08:49Z jasom: On My Machine(tm) the radeon is essentially unusable for running X for more than a few hours 2015-04-24T00:09:10Z jasom: fortunately my distro makes it super easy to use an older Xorg 2015-04-24T00:09:47Z jasom: so I use the catalyst driver which causes the cursor to display wrong, but at least doesn't crash 2015-04-24T00:09:56Z jasom: I think the real solution is to buy an nVidia card :P 2015-04-24T00:10:01Z pillton: jasom Slothel: One day, as I did, you will realise how much time you waste with this stuff. 2015-04-24T00:10:34Z Bike: and switch to Haiku 2015-04-24T00:11:00Z jasom: pillton: running with the nvidia driver, I have zero issues; it was worth the $150 2015-04-24T00:11:23Z pillton: jasom: Great. 2015-04-24T00:11:32Z jasom: Bike: is that the Amiga OS derivitive or the BeOS one? 2015-04-24T00:11:37Z Bike: be 2015-04-24T00:11:49Z Slothel: I'm on my work computer now so I've downloaded good ole' emacs and slime 2015-04-24T00:11:52Z jasom: Bike: but does it run sbcl? 2015-04-24T00:11:53Z Slothel: and sbcl on windows 2015-04-24T00:11:55Z Natch quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-24T00:12:07Z Ukari quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-24T00:12:21Z Bike: the one time i tried it i don't think i'd used sbcl yet. i stopped because it had no flash -> no youtube videos, which is my main computer usage by time 2015-04-24T00:12:28Z Slothel: I'm still getting a weird error when I try to start slime though, permission denied, sbcl 2015-04-24T00:12:36Z Bike: is it +x? 2015-04-24T00:12:42Z Slothel: yeah 2015-04-24T00:12:46Z Slothel: i have the worst luck 2015-04-24T00:12:48Z Slothel: with these things 2015-04-24T00:13:47Z Bike: nothing about sbcl on the bug tracker. shameful 2015-04-24T00:15:14Z C6248 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-24T00:15:42Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T00:16:00Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-24T00:17:12Z rvchangue_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-24T00:19:53Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T00:19:55Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T00:19:57Z yrk quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.0.50.1)) 2015-04-24T00:20:38Z xiaoguo joined #lisp 2015-04-24T00:24:40Z didi-ng quit (Quit: you can't /fire me, I /quit) 2015-04-24T00:25:46Z mogglebang quit (Quit: mogglebang) 2015-04-24T00:27:37Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-04-24T00:27:39Z Slothel: hrm 2015-04-24T00:28:12Z Slothel: So I got frustrated and put the full path of the SBCL exe in my inferior-lisp in init.el 2015-04-24T00:28:20Z Slothel: now it's telling me Spawning child process: invalid argument 2015-04-24T00:28:29Z Slothel: Which I assume means it doesn't like the file path 2015-04-24T00:28:34Z Slothel: I'm about ready to give up 2015-04-24T00:32:44Z Bike: this windows? 2015-04-24T00:33:09Z Bike: well, anyway http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17860785/slime-on-windows-7 2015-04-24T00:33:53Z Slothel: Bike: Oops, didn't see that you responded. Yep, it's Windows (work machine) 2015-04-24T00:34:54Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2015-04-24T00:37:07Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-24T00:37:20Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-04-24T00:37:50Z tajjada joined #lisp 2015-04-24T00:39:08Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-24T00:42:28Z keen________ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-24T00:44:51Z keen________ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T00:45:41Z pjb: msg - - 2015-04-24T00:45:47Z pjb: msg - - 2015-04-24T00:48:29Z Brozo: sup 2015-04-24T00:51:37Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-24T00:54:12Z Saigut_ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T00:55:00Z pjb: What seems to be the problem? 2015-04-24T00:55:59Z Slothel: Well, I made some random config edits and 2015-04-24T00:56:00Z Slothel: miraculously 2015-04-24T00:56:05Z Slothel: slime is working 2015-04-24T00:56:42Z Saigut quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-24T00:57:21Z Brozo: nice 2015-04-24T00:58:32Z Saigut_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-24T01:00:35Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-24T01:01:29Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T01:01:31Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T01:02:28Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-04-24T01:03:45Z Saigut joined #lisp 2015-04-24T01:04:47Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-24T01:05:13Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-04-24T01:07:52Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-24T01:14:35Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-04-24T01:17:38Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T01:17:51Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T01:20:29Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-04-24T01:21:13Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-24T01:25:24Z jlongster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-24T01:25:46Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-24T01:29:40Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-24T01:34:01Z linux_dream quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-24T01:36:30Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-04-24T01:38:02Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-04-24T01:38:12Z clop2: anyone know a good tool for drawing excel-like graphs? if it runs in Lisp that'd be awesome but I imagine I can easily print the data into whatever format... 2015-04-24T01:38:26Z clop2: automatically drawing such graphs from generated data, I mean 2015-04-24T01:40:08Z moei joined #lisp 2015-04-24T01:43:22Z nyef: What's an "excel-like" graph? Would it be sufficient to use COM Automation to control Excel? 2015-04-24T01:43:46Z Slothel: Curse my obsessive compulsion for customization 2015-04-24T01:43:47Z wemeetagain quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-24T01:43:58Z Slothel: Trying to work through this lisp book but I get distracted and start trying to customize emacs 2015-04-24T01:44:20Z nyef: ... Which book? 2015-04-24T01:44:52Z clop2: nyef: i just mean basic bar charts and such, i don't actually use Excel very often :) looks like there might be some good javascript libraries for this sort of thing... sorry for the noise 2015-04-24T01:45:20Z nyef: Ah. 2015-04-24T01:45:26Z Bike: clop2: gnuplot? 2015-04-24T01:45:42Z nyef: There are probably a few options in CL, or integrations to existing libraries such as gnuplot. Stuff like that. 2015-04-24T01:45:50Z pjb: http://cliki.net/site/search?query=graphs 2015-04-24T01:45:55Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-04-24T01:46:21Z clop2: gnuplot looks promising, thanks 2015-04-24T01:46:37Z mogglebang joined #lisp 2015-04-24T01:47:01Z clop2: pjb: thanks, that looks good too 2015-04-24T01:47:07Z axion: is there a library that can walk the AST of a project and export/view it as a diagram? 2015-04-24T01:47:46Z pjb: What AST? 2015-04-24T01:49:09Z axion: i'm just interested in viewing the relationships of a project's execution path visually 2015-04-24T01:49:18Z pjb: A lisp one? 2015-04-24T01:49:25Z axion: yes 2015-04-24T01:50:10Z Zhivago: Although considering an AST as an execution path is ... problematic. 2015-04-24T01:50:10Z pjb: I don't know any self-sufficient all batteries included tool to do that. 2015-04-24T01:50:39Z axion: ok 2015-04-24T01:51:05Z pjb: Do you realize that the execution path depends on the input data? 2015-04-24T01:51:52Z axion: yes 2015-04-24T01:52:59Z pjb: Well then you could use cl-stepper. 2015-04-24T01:53:06Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T01:53:14Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T01:53:26Z pjb: And if you want a graphical representation, you can either modify it to output graph data, or parse its output. 2015-04-24T01:53:35Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-24T01:53:40Z jeaye quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-24T01:54:04Z jeaye joined #lisp 2015-04-24T01:54:22Z axion: alright, i'll dcheck that out. thanks 2015-04-24T01:56:55Z nyef: There might be some interesting visualizations of program structure available if you "just" format the various function and variable definitions as literal text with boxes for sexps, and then have arrows from use to definition for variable, function, and macro references. 2015-04-24T01:57:37Z Natch joined #lisp 2015-04-24T01:58:07Z Zhivago: I guess it depends on what problem you're trying to solve. 2015-04-24T01:58:25Z Zhivago: What do you hope the visualization to reveal to you? 2015-04-24T01:59:52Z aap_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-24T02:00:21Z aap joined #lisp 2015-04-24T02:01:40Z mogglebang quit (Quit: mogglebang) 2015-04-24T02:05:21Z axion: nothing in particular. was just an idea i had for a project, possibly interactive game, but if it exists already. 2015-04-24T02:08:40Z jlongster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-24T02:08:49Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-24T02:10:22Z wemeetagain joined #lisp 2015-04-24T02:10:56Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-04-24T02:11:42Z Saigut: quit 2015-04-24T02:12:06Z Saigut quit (Quit: Bye) 2015-04-24T02:17:07Z emaczen`` joined #lisp 2015-04-24T02:18:31Z Zhivago: Hmm. It might be interesting to have a notion of code 'zone' and to make a transcription of zone boundary crossings. 2015-04-24T02:18:43Z Zhivago: That could produce a useful data-flow/dependency graph, I guess. 2015-04-24T02:18:59Z nyef: "Package". 2015-04-24T02:19:26Z nyef: I find that the "package" is a wonderful concept for dependency management. 2015-04-24T02:20:14Z Slothel: So I'm looking at the Cliki GUI page 2015-04-24T02:20:18Z Slothel: there's a lot of packages here 2015-04-24T02:20:25Z Slothel: Which is best for complex GUI work? 2015-04-24T02:20:42Z Zhivago: I usually recommend html5, these days. 2015-04-24T02:21:00Z nyef: Slothel: "It depends", but you may also find that the answer in your case is "none of them". 2015-04-24T02:21:01Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-24T02:21:13Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-24T02:21:23Z pillton: CommonQt is great. 2015-04-24T02:22:28Z axion: Depends on your use-case most definitely 2015-04-24T02:22:32Z pillton: I write tools for me though. 2015-04-24T02:23:23Z defaultxr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T02:24:17Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-04-24T02:26:41Z Slothel: Well my desire is to write a proram for a fair amount of people to use 2015-04-24T02:26:42Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T02:26:49Z Slothel: I want to build a web and desktop version 2015-04-24T02:27:06Z Slothel: for the web I can just use the standard HTML5/CSS/Javascript 2015-04-24T02:27:22Z axion: I would suggest OpenGL then 2015-04-24T02:27:37Z Slothel: can Lisp use it? Sorry if that's a stupid question 2015-04-24T02:27:44Z Zhivago: You can always use html5/css/javascript on the desktop. 2015-04-24T02:28:06Z nell joined #lisp 2015-04-24T02:28:11Z axion: Of course 2015-04-24T02:28:19Z Slothel: I don't really want to go that route though 2015-04-24T02:28:40Z Slothel: I've always wanted to know how OpenGL communicates with 2015-04-24T02:28:45Z didi joined #lisp 2015-04-24T02:28:46Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-04-24T02:28:53Z Slothel: I mean does use the Win32 api 2015-04-24T02:28:57Z Slothel: *does it use 2015-04-24T02:29:16Z axion: OpenGL is just an API that GPU manufacturers implement into their drivers 2015-04-24T02:29:29Z Slothel: Ah okay 2015-04-24T02:29:54Z axion: Even a phone these days can do complex GPU computations 2015-04-24T02:30:37Z Zhivago: One nice thing about OpenGL is that it can operate over a wire protocol. 2015-04-24T02:32:16Z axion: Slothel: I strongly recommend against it unless you're planning on actual graphics programming, in which case, head on over to #lispgames where the GL hackers hang out 2015-04-24T02:33:00Z axion: But OpenGL is loads of fun :) 2015-04-24T02:33:02Z Slothel: axion: Sounds really fun, but may be overkill for what I want to accomplish 2015-04-24T02:33:14Z Slothel: axion: I'll look into it in any case 2015-04-24T02:33:29Z pillton: axion: No it isn't! 2015-04-24T02:34:08Z axion: The handful of people who use it regularly, myself included, would argue that :) 2015-04-24T02:34:21Z axion: I've been developing a modern 3d game in lisp for about 6 months...having awesome fun 2015-04-24T02:34:41Z Slothel: Well, I've some familiarity with what I consider weak GUI libraries in other languages 2015-04-24T02:34:46Z Slothel: And they all seemed rather limited 2015-04-24T02:35:01Z Slothel: This program conceptually would need a lot of freedom to work correctly 2015-04-24T02:35:10Z pillton: axion: I am having a hard time trying to determine if you are being truthful. 2015-04-24T02:35:11Z Slothel: So maybe it's an excuse to try OpenGL 2015-04-24T02:35:17Z didi left #lisp 2015-04-24T02:36:50Z axion: pillton: and why might that be? 2015-04-24T02:39:24Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-24T02:43:34Z Slothel: Looks really fun. 2015-04-24T02:45:00Z Zhivago: It always is, until drawing stuff at a 5% tilt becomes dull. 2015-04-24T02:48:22Z Slothel: Fuark it, I'm going to get my feet wet with some opengl 2015-04-24T02:48:27Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-24T02:48:39Z axion: Slothel: very. Stop by #lispgames sometime if it interests you. Quite a few interesting GL projects being developed over there. I must get going now. See ya 2015-04-24T02:49:01Z Slothel: axion: Til we again, good sir! 2015-04-24T02:49:12Z Slothel: damnit, I'm making typos all the time now 2015-04-24T02:49:17Z Slothel: *Til' we meet again 2015-04-24T02:49:38Z rvchangue_ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T02:50:25Z Bike: "til"'s fine. it's even in wycliffe, bruh. 2015-04-24T02:50:59Z Zhivago: Also, what would that approstrophe be eliding there? 2015-04-24T02:51:11Z Zhivago: 'til, I could understand. 2015-04-24T02:52:42Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-04-24T02:52:46Z Slothel: the apostrophe was a mistake, I omitted "meet" the first time around 2015-04-24T02:52:49Z Slothel: Which is what I was trying to correct 2015-04-24T02:53:11Z Slothel: But I made another typo in the sentence that was supposed to be correcting the first typo, and now I hate my life 2015-04-24T02:54:01Z c74d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T02:56:26Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-24T02:56:35Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-04-24T03:00:21Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-24T03:00:52Z tessier quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-24T03:01:05Z tessier joined #lisp 2015-04-24T03:01:36Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-24T03:05:43Z s1n4 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T03:08:10Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-24T03:08:54Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-24T03:09:54Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2015-04-24T03:14:42Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-04-24T03:15:39Z wemeetagain quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-24T03:18:48Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-04-24T03:22:09Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-24T03:23:15Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T03:24:49Z s1n4 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-24T03:26:04Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-24T03:30:45Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-04-24T03:35:35Z az joined #lisp 2015-04-24T03:41:30Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-04-24T03:48:18Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-24T03:49:12Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-04-24T04:01:30Z c74d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T04:03:30Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-04-24T04:07:06Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-24T04:10:03Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-24T04:24:44Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-24T04:29:25Z Brozo: ugh, how do i setup lisp on a mac 2015-04-24T04:32:50Z H4ns: brew install sbcl 2015-04-24T04:33:54Z H4ns: Brozo: http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/31/modern-common-lisp-on-osx/ was good, but it may be slightly outdated in particular with respect to the emacs distribution 2015-04-24T04:34:09Z H4ns: Brozo: go for http://emacsformacosx.com/ instead 2015-04-24T04:34:48Z pillton: macports is pretty good. port install emacs-app ; port install sbcl +fancy ; 2015-04-24T04:35:19Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-04-24T04:37:48Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-24T04:38:34Z skulibj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-24T04:38:57Z skulibj joined #lisp 2015-04-24T04:39:37Z pillton: or port install ccl 2015-04-24T04:41:07Z mogglebang joined #lisp 2015-04-24T04:41:11Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T04:42:07Z mogglebang quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-24T04:55:51Z c74d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T04:57:29Z whartung quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-24T04:57:52Z whartung joined #lisp 2015-04-24T04:58:30Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T05:00:17Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-04-24T05:00:59Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-24T05:02:07Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T05:03:07Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-04-24T05:03:10Z c74d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-24T05:04:30Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T05:05:22Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-04-24T05:07:30Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-24T05:11:33Z sheilong quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-24T05:12:21Z chrismouse joined #lisp 2015-04-24T05:13:12Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-24T05:13:50Z mogglebang joined #lisp 2015-04-24T05:15:32Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T05:17:59Z _ANTARKTIDA___ quit (Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)) 2015-04-24T05:18:09Z _ANTARKTIDA___ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T05:20:05Z beach joined #lisp 2015-04-24T05:20:14Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-04-24T05:20:14Z minion: beach, memo from pjb: of course, if the macro is idempotent, it having side effects will be non-consequential. But in the usual case where it is not, one times its side effects won't be the same as two times its side effects, and therefore the macro will be non-conforming… 2015-04-24T05:20:14Z minion: beach, memo from pjb: When trying to find the *source* of an object defined by a macro, the problem is that there may be several layers of macro expansions leading to this source. One "right" way to do it is what we have currently with slime, jumping to the outermost macro call. But it may be useful to also get a list of source positions of the point in that macro where the source of the object searched is built, and recursively when this 2015-04-24T05:20:14Z minion: beach, memo from pjb: the complexity comes from the fact that macros are functions, and you want to identify "specifically meaningful" points in the control flow and call graph of the macros (and the functions macros call). That sounds like the termination problem. (Of course, heuristics or simple cases are always possible). 2015-04-24T05:22:15Z pillton: Good morning beach. 2015-04-24T05:22:22Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-24T05:23:00Z pillton: beach: Did you implement lexical types in your first class environments? 2015-04-24T05:23:36Z beach: What are lexical types? 2015-04-24T05:24:00Z pillton: Types which exist in the lexical scope. 2015-04-24T05:24:32Z beach: That would be an extension to the Common Lisp language. I didn't implement any extensions, really. 2015-04-24T05:24:34Z Bike: like defun:flet::typedef:? 2015-04-24T05:25:43Z pillton: Like let-type is to types as flet is to functions. 2015-04-24T05:26:07Z pillton: I understand it would be an extension, I wondered if you implemented support for it. 2015-04-24T05:26:52Z beach: I didn't, no. I only implemented things that would be useful for the standard language. 2015-04-24T05:27:02Z beach: ... so far, at least. 2015-04-24T05:27:30Z pillton: Ok. I could ditch this lambda form nonsense if I had it. 2015-04-24T05:27:59Z Bike: ...? 2015-04-24T05:28:27Z beach: pillton: Feel free to add it. :) 2015-04-24T05:30:06Z pillton: I'm generating code for the different types of arrays/matrices I use. 2015-04-24T05:30:56Z sunwukong` joined #lisp 2015-04-24T05:31:32Z pjb: Brozo: On MacOSX you can use AppStore to get Clozure CL for free. 2015-04-24T05:31:59Z pjb: That would definitely be the implementation of choice on MacOSX. 2015-04-24T05:32:10Z Brozo: ty pjb 2015-04-24T05:33:26Z beach: Brozo: You can use M-x define-global-abbrevtythank you 2015-04-24T05:34:10Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T05:34:11Z mogglebang quit (Quit: mogglebang) 2015-04-24T05:36:09Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-24T05:41:45Z x1n4u quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-24T05:42:03Z ecraven: pjb: thank you, never knew about that! 2015-04-24T05:45:42Z beach thinks it is time to upgrade the OS on his notebook so that it can install SLIME properly. 2015-04-24T05:50:03Z mogglebang joined #lisp 2015-04-24T05:51:20Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-04-24T05:55:29Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-04-24T05:56:14Z BWV988 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T05:58:35Z thodg joined #lisp 2015-04-24T06:00:31Z Slothel: It's going to take some time getting used to Lisp, coming from basically all statically typed languages 2015-04-24T06:01:01Z Zhivago: Such as? 2015-04-24T06:01:10Z Slothel: C++, Java 2015-04-24T06:01:46Z Zhivago: Well ... the good news is that you're used to really poor static typing. 2015-04-24T06:01:48Z Slothel: It took me a minute to realize how you can define something like defun foo (a b c d) and pass it basically any type of argument you wish 2015-04-24T06:02:01Z Zhivago: Well, you can't, if you expect it to work. 2015-04-24T06:02:02Z Slothel: Zhivago: I've also mucked about with Haskell some, but not much 2015-04-24T06:02:03Z hjs joined #lisp 2015-04-24T06:02:13Z Zhivago: And you can make declarations of what types are permitted to be sent. 2015-04-24T06:02:32Z Zhivago: Some compilers (e.g., SBCL) will consider those assertions and check them in most cases. 2015-04-24T06:02:37Z Niac quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-24T06:02:57Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-04-24T06:03:04Z Slothel: Perhaps I'll enable that when my code is ready to go live but I kind of like the dynamic typing for prototyping/development 2015-04-24T06:03:29Z Zhivago: It's nice if compilers can tell you when your code won't work. 2015-04-24T06:03:36Z Slothel: If I'm learning Lisp, is it somewhat redundant to learn Haskell or is it reasonable to learn both? Im really interested in Haskell as well from the little time I've spent with it 2015-04-24T06:03:48Z Zhivago: And that's something that static typing gives you -- you're just used to really bad ones that don't help much. 2015-04-24T06:03:56Z Zhivago: CL and Haskell are radically different. 2015-04-24T06:04:06Z Zhivago: CL has eager evaluation, haskell has lazy. 2015-04-24T06:04:15Z hjs: I narrowed down my SBCL out of memory problem to a declaration in my vector multiply function. When the declaration is there, it uses more memory and crashes. When it isn't there, it works fine. Here's the code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147410 2015-04-24T06:04:20Z Zhivago: CL has a pretty shabby static typing system, haskell has a pretty good one. 2015-04-24T06:04:21Z Slothel: right, and the one concept taht I really liked was called currying i believ 2015-04-24T06:04:33Z Zhivago: CL is a procedural language, haskell is a functional language. 2015-04-24T06:04:51Z Zhivago: You can implement currying in CL if you like -- lexical closure makes it straight-forward. 2015-04-24T06:05:32Z Bike: hjs: you might want to ask #sbcl and/or compare the disassemblies 2015-04-24T06:06:10Z Slothel: Zhivago: If this is a stupid question, I apologize. Can I do OOP in Lisp? 2015-04-24T06:06:25Z Slothel: Zhivago: I'm just going through practical common lisp online so I don't know much yet 2015-04-24T06:07:02Z hjs: Bike: Good ideas. I posted a bug report, but I should try #sbcl & try dissassembling the code. 2015-04-24T06:07:08Z beach: Slothel: Common Lisp has one of the most powerful object-oriented systems around. 2015-04-24T06:08:09Z Slothel: beach: Do I need to do anything special to use it? Currently I'm just learning about the syntax, how to use car and such 2015-04-24T06:08:18Z Zhivago: Slothel: Sure, depending on what you mean by OO. 2015-04-24T06:08:24Z Zhivago: Consider (class-of 10) 2015-04-24T06:08:33Z beach: Slothel: You are already using it. 2015-04-24T06:08:44Z Zhivago: Now consider (defmethod foo ((a integer)) 'integer) (foo 10) 2015-04-24T06:09:02Z mogglebang quit (Quit: mogglebang) 2015-04-24T06:09:57Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-04-24T06:10:03Z Zhivago: (defmethod foo ((a string)) 'string) (foo "10") might also be illustrative. 2015-04-24T06:10:06Z mogglebang joined #lisp 2015-04-24T06:11:18Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-24T06:12:18Z Shinmera: Mornin', #lisp 2015-04-24T06:13:43Z tmh_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T06:14:08Z tmh_ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T06:14:23Z Jubb quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-24T06:14:25Z Brozo: sup 2015-04-24T06:15:13Z Shinmera: I just woke up and read the backlog. Gonna head to university soon. 2015-04-24T06:15:14Z hjs quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-24T06:15:51Z Shinmera: Slothel: If you /need/ a native GUI, there's also Qtools. Since you said you wanted to write a web version anyway, I don't see why you /also/ want to write a native version. 2015-04-24T06:19:42Z sharkz quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-24T06:19:55Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-24T06:25:33Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-24T06:28:17Z Slothel: Shinmera: Because the two are different and I'd like the experience of building both 2015-04-24T06:29:15Z p_l: Shinmera: web is not really a good platform for many things… 2015-04-24T06:30:01Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T06:30:16Z sharkz joined #lisp 2015-04-24T06:30:16Z sharkz quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-24T06:30:43Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-04-24T06:31:30Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-24T06:32:34Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-24T06:36:03Z sharkz joined #lisp 2015-04-24T06:36:42Z chrismouse quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T06:39:03Z tmh_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T06:39:46Z tmh_ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T06:40:11Z BWV988: ... for a given value of hypothetical distance 2015-04-24T06:41:26Z beach: Hello Shinmera. 2015-04-24T06:43:17Z Shinmera: p_l: But if you already write a web thing, it's most likely you don't also want to duplicate the entire effort and provide two different experiences for the user. 2015-04-24T06:43:43Z Shinmera: Slothel: Then pick projects that fit for each. 2015-04-24T06:43:59Z Shinmera: beach: Hi beach. How are you holding up after all that ELS excitement? 2015-04-24T06:44:31Z beach: Shinmera: Fine, thanks. We (me and my wife) also had a few meet-ups with her colleagues. It was great. 2015-04-24T06:44:34Z BWV988 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-24T06:44:54Z beach: Shinmera: You? 2015-04-24T06:45:15Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-24T06:45:46Z Shinmera: Managed to get home fine, but was still completely exhausted for that day, so I didn't do much. Yesterday fared much better already. 2015-04-24T06:45:55Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-24T06:46:11Z beach: Yeah, I know. It is exhausting. 2015-04-24T06:46:57Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T06:48:38Z Pastaf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T06:48:46Z beach: Now I start working on the papers for Kraków. :) 2015-04-24T06:48:57Z Slothel: It's okay to make a desktop and web verion of the same program 2015-04-24T06:49:45Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-24T06:49:58Z Shinmera: Slothel: depends on your constraints. One of my constraints is "not wasting my time", and I consider writing two separate versions of the same thing a waste. Why not make it effective by learning the two technologies by doing things in them that are suitable for each? 2015-04-24T06:50:26Z Shinmera: beach: I have to focus on university work and writing a parser for haptic data files. Woo, I guess. 2015-04-24T06:51:17Z beach: The haptic stuff is for university? 2015-04-24T06:51:20Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-24T06:51:23Z Shinmera: That's for my side-job. 2015-04-24T06:51:35Z Shinmera: The CL one :) 2015-04-24T06:51:35Z beach: I see. 2015-04-24T06:51:55Z beach: All that should keep you busy. 2015-04-24T06:52:07Z Shinmera: Yeah. 2015-04-24T06:53:09Z psy__ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-24T06:54:44Z beach: Shinmera: Or, you can move to Japan and work, as we heard. You will learn a lot of Japanese at the same time. 2015-04-24T06:55:02Z Shinmera: Yeah, no. Not ready for that. 2015-04-24T06:55:32Z beach: They have great food. 2015-04-24T06:55:34Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T06:56:03Z beach: OK, I should go. Time to get to work! 2015-04-24T06:56:13Z beach left #lisp 2015-04-24T07:00:55Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-04-24T07:01:07Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T07:01:45Z gniourf_gniourf quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-04-24T07:05:58Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-04-24T07:06:15Z emaczen``: how can I pause a thread? What is the equivalent of Java's Thread.sleep(1000) 2015-04-24T07:06:23Z Shinmera: clhs sleep 2015-04-24T07:06:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sleep.htm 2015-04-24T07:06:37Z Zhivago: CL doesn't have threads, so check your implementation's thread support. 2015-04-24T07:09:10Z Slothel: I don't really have the same constraint. My goal is to learn the language and the idea I have just so happens to be compelling enough to me that I don't mind implementing it twice 2015-04-24T07:09:14Z Slothel: But I see what you're saying 2015-04-24T07:09:44Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-04-24T07:13:20Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T07:13:21Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T07:15:46Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-24T07:15:51Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-04-24T07:20:11Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-24T07:20:33Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-24T07:21:39Z a2015 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T07:25:28Z jackdaniel: good morning 2015-04-24T07:25:41Z thodg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-24T07:25:45Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-24T07:26:03Z Slothel: Morning! 2015-04-24T07:26:45Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T07:28:02Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T07:28:53Z jackdaniel: :-) 2015-04-24T07:29:35Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-04-24T07:30:30Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-24T07:30:46Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-24T07:33:00Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-24T07:37:00Z mogglebang quit (Quit: mogglebang) 2015-04-24T07:39:45Z emaczen``: morning jackdaniel. 2015-04-24T07:40:51Z jackdaniel: hello 2015-04-24T07:42:30Z emaczen``: what do you all do when checking string containment? 2015-04-24T07:42:59Z zhuyue quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-24T07:44:13Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-24T07:44:28Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T07:44:39Z H4ns: emaczen``: i rarely need to find the occurrence of a random string in another. when i need to find a static string in a random string, i use regular expressions. 2015-04-24T07:45:07Z emaczen``: H4ns: what library do you use? 2015-04-24T07:45:25Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-24T07:45:49Z H4ns: emaczen``: cl-ppcre. 2015-04-24T07:46:16Z emaczen``: H4ns: thanks 2015-04-24T07:46:28Z H4ns: emaczen``: i have heard that some matching libraries (i.e. optima) have a nicer syntax for regular expressions, but i don't use them 2015-04-24T07:47:36Z Shinmera: There's also just CL:SEARCH 2015-04-24T07:50:07Z jackdaniel: emaczen``: I'm downloading android-ndk to check, if I can reproduce your problem 2015-04-24T07:53:43Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-24T08:01:01Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T08:03:06Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-04-24T08:04:06Z chenjf joined #lisp 2015-04-24T08:05:39Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-24T08:08:42Z chenjf quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-24T08:10:38Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-24T08:12:35Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-24T08:13:36Z jackdaniel: emaczen``: do you have libc6-dev or equivalent installed on your host machine? 2015-04-24T08:13:46Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-24T08:14:40Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-24T08:15:05Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-04-24T08:15:15Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-24T08:16:47Z ramus joined #lisp 2015-04-24T08:17:03Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-24T08:18:54Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-24T08:19:47Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T08:24:43Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-04-24T08:25:33Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T08:27:57Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-24T08:30:26Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-24T08:35:57Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-24T08:36:36Z redeemed joined #lisp 2015-04-24T08:37:47Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-24T08:38:22Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-24T08:38:46Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-24T08:40:57Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-04-24T08:42:42Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-24T08:46:31Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I'll tell emaczen`` when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-04-24T08:53:29Z arquebus joined #lisp 2015-04-24T08:54:06Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-24T08:54:16Z arquebus quit (Quit: konversation disconnects) 2015-04-24T08:54:41Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-24T08:54:51Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-24T08:59:54Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T09:00:27Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-04-24T09:00:36Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-24T09:01:12Z emaczen`` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-24T09:01:23Z d4ryus_ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T09:02:18Z selat quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-24T09:03:18Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-24T09:04:37Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-24T09:09:12Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T09:09:19Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-24T09:09:57Z kp666 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-24T09:10:20Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T09:11:26Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-24T09:11:27Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T09:12:49Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Weird in coding now, or make love, only two things push me away from IRC.) 2015-04-24T09:14:26Z mj-0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-24T09:19:20Z michael_lee joined #lisp 2015-04-24T09:19:34Z root_empire joined #lisp 2015-04-24T09:20:21Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-24T09:25:53Z xiaoguo quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-24T09:28:34Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-24T09:29:51Z lisper29 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-24T09:33:34Z Niac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T09:34:25Z vdamewood quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-04-24T09:35:52Z malice joined #lisp 2015-04-24T09:36:00Z malice: Hello, what's a good logger for CL? 2015-04-24T09:36:10Z Shinmera: Depends on your requirements. 2015-04-24T09:36:33Z malice: Well, I want it to be simple, so I can use it right away. Other than that, no big requirements. 2015-04-24T09:36:53Z Shinmera: What's wrong with just FORMAT then 2015-04-24T09:37:21Z malice: I'd have to wrap it all in with-open-file 2015-04-24T09:37:37Z Shinmera: Ah, so your requirement is logging to file. 2015-04-24T09:37:37Z malice: (I mean my code) 2015-04-24T09:37:49Z malice: Right, sorry that I didn't mention it. 2015-04-24T09:38:28Z Shinmera: I think log4cl is used by a couple of people, but it has been abandoned, so it isn't actively worked on anymore. 2015-04-24T09:39:07Z Shinmera: Then there's my Verbose logger, which should be able to do file logging too, but I never used that part myself, so I might have to add some fixes / convenience improvements to allow that, making it "non out of the box" 2015-04-24T09:39:59Z Shinmera: Other than that I haven't used any myself, so you'll have to take a look on your own http://cliki.net/logging or wait for someone else to answer. 2015-04-24T09:40:55Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-24T09:40:59Z malice: Okay. Thank you, Shinmera. 2015-04-24T09:41:13Z gendl joined #lisp 2015-04-24T09:43:28Z jdz: i've used cl-log 2015-04-24T09:43:42Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-24T09:43:51Z jdz: worked good for me 2015-04-24T09:44:09Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-24T09:44:10Z gendl quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-24T09:45:01Z xiaoguo joined #lisp 2015-04-24T09:51:08Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T09:52:04Z selat quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-24T09:52:45Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-24T09:54:28Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-24T09:55:24Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-04-24T09:55:43Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T09:58:09Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-24T10:04:13Z _ANTARKTIDA___ left #lisp 2015-04-24T10:09:30Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-04-24T10:10:54Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T10:21:10Z impulse joined #lisp 2015-04-24T10:21:26Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-24T10:22:36Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-24T10:23:00Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-04-24T10:23:58Z d4ryus_ is now known as d4ryus 2015-04-24T10:27:13Z pt1_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T10:28:42Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-04-24T10:28:54Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-24T10:30:43Z vdamewood quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-24T10:31:52Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-04-24T10:35:55Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-24T10:37:21Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T10:38:09Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-24T10:38:59Z Xach: failproofshark: remote is ok. i don't know about fluency. 2015-04-24T10:40:02Z k-dawg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-24T10:42:08Z mega1 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T10:42:38Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-04-24T10:43:08Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-24T10:47:27Z malice quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-24T10:47:54Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-24T10:50:29Z kp666 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T10:51:50Z p_l: failproofshark: Eitaro didn't mention anything about japanese being a requirement, and remote or relocation 2015-04-24T10:52:05Z Xach: he did mention remote is ok 2015-04-24T10:52:24Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T10:53:19Z hitecnologys: Log4cl was abandoned? 2015-04-24T10:54:14Z Shinmera: I think it has been picked up by sharplispers, but that means only support, no development. 2015-04-24T10:54:40Z p_l: Xach: I've been thinking of sending my resume to somewrite as well 2015-04-24T10:54:57Z hitecnologys: Oh, thank god it's at least supported. I use it actively in several projects of mine so it'd be painful to switch. 2015-04-24T10:55:13Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 2015-04-24T10:56:50Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T10:56:54Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-04-24T10:57:40Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-04-24T10:59:47Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-24T11:01:02Z H4ns: hitecnologys: what does "supported" mean to you in this context? 2015-04-24T11:01:27Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-04-24T11:01:32Z hitecnologys: H4ns: fixing bugs if they ever occur mostly. 2015-04-24T11:02:10Z hitecnologys: H4ns: accepting patches as well, in case I happen to implement something new. 2015-04-24T11:02:15Z s1n4 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T11:02:32Z Xach: sounds like you can be the new maintainer! 2015-04-24T11:03:02Z hitecnologys: I could but I've already got enough on my plate. 2015-04-24T11:03:11Z hitecnologys: More than enough, I'd say. 2015-04-24T11:03:23Z hitecnologys: I barely keep up with my current tasks. 2015-04-24T11:03:47Z Shinmera: Xach: I still haven't heard back from the cl-sqlite author by the way :/ 2015-04-24T11:03:55Z Shinmera: I should probably try and contact him again. 2015-04-24T11:05:18Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-24T11:07:39Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-24T11:08:41Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T11:09:21Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T11:18:33Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T11:20:53Z eazar001_cloud joined #lisp 2015-04-24T11:25:37Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-24T11:26:12Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T11:28:08Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-04-24T11:37:26Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-24T11:41:50Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-04-24T11:42:18Z mvilleneuve_ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T11:44:24Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-24T11:45:23Z ehu: does anybody have a copy of the xcl source code? 2015-04-24T11:45:37Z ehu: does anybody think it's worth saving the xcl source code on a common-lisp.net project? 2015-04-24T11:45:40Z ehu: just for reference? 2015-04-24T11:45:51Z ehu: posterity, I mean. 2015-04-24T11:46:19Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-24T11:46:51Z splittist: ehu: I'm a great believer in saving things for posterity. So you have my vote. 2015-04-24T11:50:02Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T11:51:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-24T11:52:13Z ehu: ah. actually, I see the project is supposed to be on github. 2015-04-24T11:52:42Z ehu: hmm wondering if I can or should move the domain content somewhere. 2015-04-24T11:52:52Z ehu: the source code seems to be "safe" 2015-04-24T11:52:59Z ehu: (although I might still set up a mirror) 2015-04-24T12:05:39Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T12:05:39Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-04-24T12:06:12Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-24T12:08:06Z skulibj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-24T12:08:39Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-24T12:10:13Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-04-24T12:10:48Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-24T12:14:18Z MarkusBarthlen joined #lisp 2015-04-24T12:14:51Z Jaskologist joined #lisp 2015-04-24T12:16:11Z oslvbo joined #lisp 2015-04-24T12:18:58Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-04-24T12:25:22Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T12:28:56Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-24T12:31:29Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-24T12:32:41Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-04-24T12:44:37Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-24T12:45:28Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-24T12:47:02Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-24T12:47:03Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T12:47:31Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T12:51:29Z vdamewood quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-04-24T12:51:42Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-24T12:52:11Z protist joined #lisp 2015-04-24T12:52:15Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-04-24T12:53:37Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-24T12:54:07Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-04-24T12:54:35Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I'm wondering what type (integer ) means 2015-04-24T14:06:22Z Shinmera: clhs integer 2015-04-24T14:06:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_intege.htm 2015-04-24T14:07:14Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-04-24T14:07:23Z clop: aha, so it's a lower limit, thanks 2015-04-24T14:08:26Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-24T14:09:10Z Shinmera: Also see http://sellout.github.io/2012/03/03/common-lisp-type-hierarchy/ 2015-04-24T14:10:07Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-04-24T14:14:28Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-04-24T14:14:43Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-04-24T14:15:23Z mearnsh joined #lisp 2015-04-24T14:18:58Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-24T14:19:35Z rhllor joined #lisp 2015-04-24T14:19:53Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-24T16:37:36Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T16:38:12Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T16:38:48Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-24T16:40:02Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-24T16:42:54Z beach: Hello kami. 2015-04-24T16:42:56Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-24T16:45:12Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-24T16:46:53Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-24T16:47:09Z dstatyvka joined #lisp 2015-04-24T16:47:28Z manuel___ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-24T16:48:08Z DrCode quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-24T16:48:45Z manuel___ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T16:50:22Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-24T16:51:57Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T16:52:00Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T16:56:11Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T16:58:11Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:00:31Z arnaudga joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:00:31Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T17:02:01Z arnaudga: Hello, will you have a link with a (good and simple) example on how to use packages please ? 2015-04-24T17:03:16Z kami: arnaudga: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html 2015-04-24T17:03:20Z oleo: http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf 2015-04-24T17:03:34Z arnaudga: Thanks guys ! 2015-04-24T17:03:45Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:03:59Z oleo: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/packages.html 2015-04-24T17:04:04Z oleo: np 2015-04-24T17:04:44Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-24T17:05:40Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:06:12Z merdam joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:06:56Z kami: Xach: I'm looking at your ELS slides. Does bundle-systems work with local packages, too? 2015-04-24T17:08:05Z jrm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T17:08:53Z mogglebang joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:09:40Z merdam: kami you should suck on my diarrhea 2015-04-24T17:09:44Z merdam: in fact, you should sing along with me 2015-04-24T17:09:49Z merdam: open the video you fucking faggot 2015-04-24T17:09:52Z merdam: and sing along" 2015-04-24T17:09:53Z merdam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cqy4-vCo0M 2015-04-24T17:10:02Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-24T17:10:03Z BRPocock: someone got a kick handy? 2015-04-24T17:10:05Z merdam: Eat my diarrhea 2015-04-24T17:10:05Z merdam: Just... 2015-04-24T17:10:05Z merdam: Just ate a burger at the sleazy joint 2015-04-24T17:10:05Z merdam: Now I gotta take a shit, get to the point 2015-04-24T17:10:05Z merdam: Sittin' on the toilet, my ass is a blast 2015-04-24T17:10:05Z merdam: Runnin' smelly diarrhea outta my ass 2015-04-24T17:10:07Z merdam: No fuckin' paper 2015-04-24T17:10:09Z merdam: Hey baby lick my ass 'til your face turns blue 2015-04-24T17:10:11Z merdam: You're finished rimmin' me and you want some more 2015-04-24T17:10:13Z merdam: Ya say ya don't flush but your out the door 2015-04-24T17:10:15Z merdam: I'm back in the...with a cup 2015-04-24T17:10:17Z merdam: Scoop it outta the toilet 'cause you wanna slurp it up 2015-04-24T17:10:21Z Bicyclidine: just /ignore, they'll get banned soon enough 2015-04-24T17:10:30Z merdam: Eat my diarrhea you're chuggin' it down 2015-04-24T17:10:30Z merdam: You're suckin' my ass and your lips are all brown 2015-04-24T17:10:30Z merdam: Since we've gone back to the hamburger place 2015-04-24T17:10:30Z merdam: I'm gonna stick my ass right on your face 2015-04-24T17:10:30Z merdam: I'm gonna shit in your mouth 2015-04-24T17:10:31Z merdam: I'm gonna shit in your face, your mouth 2015-04-24T17:10:33Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:10:33Z merdam: And I wanna shit on your mother 2015-04-24T17:10:35Z merdam: I'm gonna shit on you and your mother 2015-04-24T17:10:41Z merdam: Diarrhea 2015-04-24T17:10:41Z merdam: I gotta take a shit 2015-04-24T17:10:41Z merdam: Gotta bottle a Ex-Lax, gonna take it 2015-04-24T17:10:43Z merdam: I'm gonna take me a lumpy shit 2015-04-24T17:10:45Z merdam: Gonna throw it at you, I hope I hit you 2015-04-24T17:10:47Z merdam: I hope it splats in your face there too 2015-04-24T17:10:49Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:10:50Z Plasmastar joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:10:51Z merdam: It's comin' out my ass all drippin' wet 2015-04-24T17:11:05Z merdam: It's comin' out my ass all drippin' wet 2015-04-24T17:11:06Z merdam: I want you to suck up all of it 2015-04-24T17:11:06Z merdam: Lick my ass and eat it too 2015-04-24T17:11:06Z merdam: Cause diarrhea is good for you 2015-04-24T17:11:06Z linux_dream: can someone invoke fsbot to ban? :D 2015-04-24T17:11:14Z merdam: Ya eat it, eat it, eat 2015-04-24T17:11:14Z merdam: Eat it, eat it, eat 2015-04-24T17:11:14Z merdam: Diarrhea 2015-04-24T17:11:14Z merdam: Eat my fuckin' shit 2015-04-24T17:11:18Z linux_dream: ,, power 2015-04-24T17:11:26Z merdam: eat my fucking shit linux_dream 2015-04-24T17:11:27Z merdam: seriously 2015-04-24T17:11:36Z merdam: have you ever read about the health benefits of diarrhea? 2015-04-24T17:11:37Z linux_dream: lol 2015-04-24T17:11:42Z oGMo: python is off-topic 2015-04-24T17:11:48Z linux_dream: xD 2015-04-24T17:12:15Z merdam: you can't get rid of me 2015-04-24T17:12:22Z merdam: because I have friends in high places here 2015-04-24T17:12:30Z merdam: yeah I may be klined for a day, but I'll be back 2015-04-24T17:12:33Z merdam: anyway 2015-04-24T17:12:40Z merdam: is it normal to insert things into your rectum? 2015-04-24T17:12:42Z linux_dream: are you from brazil? 2015-04-24T17:12:55Z merdam: I love taking snakes and letting them throb in my asshole 2015-04-24T17:13:20Z linux_dream: how interesting 2015-04-24T17:13:26Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:13:32Z merdam: it feels good 2015-04-24T17:13:36Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:13:43Z merdam: then I jack off to japanese gay foot fetish orgy videos 2015-04-24T17:13:45Z JokesOnYou77 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:13:49Z merdam: I love watching them suck on their toes 2015-04-24T17:13:59Z oleo: oh man 2015-04-24T17:14:01Z merdam: and then when their cum beads shoot out onto their feet 2015-04-24T17:14:07Z merdam: and then they lap it up off of each other 2015-04-24T17:14:07Z oleo: lol 2015-04-24T17:14:44Z merdam: I know that this is a 'family channel' 2015-04-24T17:14:53Z merdam: but kids need to know about the existence of this stuff 2015-04-24T17:15:00Z oleo: bah 2015-04-24T17:15:01Z merdam: so that they can make an informed choice as teenagers 2015-04-24T17:15:12Z merdam: whether they want to have group foot sucking sessions 2015-04-24T17:15:13Z oleo: lol 2015-04-24T17:15:43Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-04-24T17:17:09Z manuel___ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-24T17:18:50Z skulibj quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-24T17:18:52Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-24T17:20:02Z k-stz` joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:20:03Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-24T17:20:30Z kami: Xach: nm. Found the comment in bundle.lisp "This works only for systems that are directly provided by Quicklisp" 2015-04-24T17:20:50Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:23:02Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:24:43Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:24:46Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T17:29:32Z arnaudga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-24T17:31:38Z nell joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:34:19Z hlavaty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T17:34:31Z manuel___ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:37:31Z MoALTz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-24T17:38:03Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:38:33Z dstatyvka left #lisp 2015-04-24T17:39:56Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:41:39Z Fare just got a bug fix for fare-csv 2015-04-24T17:41:44Z Fare: wow 2015-04-24T17:41:44Z minion: Fare, memo from fe[nl]ix: ping me 2015-04-24T17:41:52Z Fare: fe[nl]ix, ping 2015-04-24T17:42:05Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:42:43Z me897 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:44:08Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T17:44:28Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:45:10Z me897 left #lisp 2015-04-24T17:51:37Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:51:51Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:51:51Z jrm quit (Changing host) 2015-04-24T17:51:51Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:52:50Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:53:14Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2015-04-24T17:53:14Z tessier joined #lisp 2015-04-24T17:58:41Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T17:59:19Z manuel___ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-24T17:59:20Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-24T18:00:44Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T18:04:29Z merdam quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-04-24T18:06:44Z s1n4 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T18:07:05Z manuel___ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T18:08:30Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-24T18:09:36Z a2015 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-24T18:10:03Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-24T18:10:32Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T18:10:41Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-24T18:10:59Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-24T18:13:48Z Leberecht joined #lisp 2015-04-24T18:15:09Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T18:15:59Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-24T18:17:03Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-04-24T18:20:38Z wyan joined #lisp 2015-04-24T18:20:49Z eazar001 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T18:21:11Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2015-04-24T19:41:34Z drmeister: ehu: I apologize if I should know this. 2015-04-24T19:41:58Z Shinmera whispers to drmeister: "It was in one of the lightning talks..." 2015-04-24T19:44:25Z QualityAddict joined #lisp 2015-04-24T19:45:01Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-04-24T19:45:51Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-04-24T19:45:51Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-04-24T19:46:16Z drmeister: Shinmera: Thanks - I'm not good with handles. 2015-04-24T19:46:41Z drmeister: ehu: Does common-lisp.net provide any facility for setting up mailing lists? 2015-04-24T19:46:42Z Shinmera: He's also been continuously posting on here about the c-l.net migration status. 2015-04-24T19:46:45Z ivan\ quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-24T19:48:31Z arnaudga joined #lisp 2015-04-24T19:48:32Z drmeister: Wait - ehu - did I buy you lunch? 2015-04-24T19:48:39Z Shinmera: He wasn't at the ELS. 2015-04-24T19:48:53Z drmeister: g*d dammit 2015-04-24T19:49:01Z drmeister: I'm just going to shut up now. 2015-04-24T19:49:09Z Shinmera giggles 2015-04-24T19:49:51Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T19:50:49Z s1n4 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-24T19:50:56Z manuel___ quit (Quit: manuel___) 2015-04-24T19:54:41Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T19:56:17Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-24T19:56:36Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-24T19:59:39Z manuel___ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T20:00:50Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-24T20:01:19Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T20:09:35Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T20:10:26Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T20:10:35Z QualityAddict quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-24T20:11:01Z alejandrozf joined #lisp 2015-04-24T20:11:22Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T20:16:57Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2015-04-24T20:17:57Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-24T20:18:06Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T20:18:46Z alejandrozf: Hi! have a question. why if Clojure language are becoming the "Lisp mainstream dialect" due to Java great interoperability, community don't make more efforts to make better to ABCL as a way to make more "popular" to CL? 2015-04-24T20:21:59Z Shinmera: Turns out Java interop isn't that great of a thing, actually. 2015-04-24T20:22:03Z |3b| suspects most of the "CL community" doesn't care about java, and "jave/clojure community" doesn't care about CL 2015-04-24T20:22:57Z Shinmera used to be a Java programmer and has never once felt the desire to use any part of the Java ecosystem since he picked up CL 2015-04-24T20:23:02Z dlowe: also, I think that the set of people who both care about popularity and are willing to work in CL is very small. 2015-04-24T20:24:10Z alejandrozf: but a PL popularity is not a good thing, even for CL? 2015-04-24T20:25:02Z Shinmera: popularity is largely unrelated to how well one can use a language, unless of course you care about what other people think of you for using a particular language. 2015-04-24T20:25:02Z dlowe: It may be seen as good, but relatively unimportant. CL makes up in longevity what it lacks in popularity 2015-04-24T20:25:52Z jackdaniel: has abcl any direct flaws? afaik it's fairly complete 2015-04-24T20:25:56Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T20:27:43Z angavrilov quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-24T20:27:47Z alejandrozf: I don't know much about abcl but Clojure seems to be more "Java integrated", there are some 'cl-lein -uberjar' somewhere? 2015-04-24T20:28:46Z ggole quit 2015-04-24T20:29:35Z jackdaniel: I'd try ABCL and see, if it lacks something. Better marketing doesn't necessarily mean better integration 2015-04-24T20:30:12Z manuel___ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-24T20:30:37Z alejandrozf: I mean I like more CL than Clojure but think it's hard dealing with ABCL...in my very humble opinion... 2015-04-24T20:30:54Z Xach: Popularity does relate to how much work from others you can build upon. 2015-04-24T20:30:58Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-24T20:31:25Z gniourf_gniourf joined #lisp 2015-04-24T20:31:43Z dlowe: Xach: that's what I meant about longevity. There may not be that many programmers working in CL *right now*, but if you take all of them that have contributed in its history, it's quite substantial. 2015-04-24T20:32:20Z gniourf_gniourf: do you think that beats the number of php programmers? 2015-04-24T20:32:33Z jackdaniel: alejandrozf: what is your opinion based on? 2015-04-24T20:32:49Z k-stz` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-24T20:33:21Z alejandrozf: i think we may use two worlds, Java + Quicklisp libs, it's not a war... 2015-04-24T20:33:44Z alejandrozf: ..only give more power to ABCL 2015-04-24T20:34:13Z alejandrozf: ...to gain more software, more quickly, more Cl-ers, etc 2015-04-24T20:34:13Z Shinmera: You can be the one to start giving that power. Do something about it! 2015-04-24T20:34:18Z BRPocock: (colourful opinion:) There are so few things from php worth building upon 2015-04-24T20:34:19Z jackdaniel wonders, what powers abcl lack 2015-04-24T20:34:20Z dlowe: gniourf_gniourf: I think the vast army of PHP programmers are not actually contributing to the language. 2015-04-24T20:35:20Z BRPocock: I've used abcl without issues for that specific reason, of using an opaque Java library, & didn't notice any deficiencies, but my main codebases require C lib integration, so I don't use it often. 2015-04-24T20:35:31Z gniourf_gniourf: of course they are not! :D 2015-04-24T20:36:05Z Xach: I subscribe to the pyramid model described by Will Wright, where some % of the people at the base learn enough to contribute something of their own, and of that next level, some % contribute something really useful, and of that group, some % do something pretty amazing. 2015-04-24T20:36:33Z Xach: The %s are different for Lisp and PHP, but volume can still help out. 2015-04-24T20:37:54Z alejandrozf: Shinmera: I'm a not an expert in Common Lisp(very far from only 3 years) and even more novice in Java(i know more Python+C/C++) but if somebody calls me to contribute ABCL I'm here! 2015-04-24T20:38:47Z Jaskologist quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-24T20:39:48Z Beamed is now known as beamed_down 2015-04-24T20:40:11Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-04-24T20:40:17Z alejandrozf: ..but other prominent members of CL-community could help and some marketing to ABCL could be great too... 2015-04-24T20:40:38Z alejandrozf: ...something like lein... 2015-04-24T20:40:41Z alejandrozf: IDK 2015-04-24T20:40:48Z selat_ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-24T20:40:57Z manuel___ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T20:41:58Z jackdaniel: alejandrozf: write a blogpost describing how to set up abcl step by step, what it lacks, how well it integrates 2015-04-24T20:42:25Z jackdaniel: I think that's how popularity of stuff grows, people start to talk about it outside the niche 2015-04-24T20:42:43Z alejandrozf: jackdaniel: agree :) 2015-04-24T20:42:57Z manuel___ quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-24T20:43:15Z Xach heard "abcl for minecraft!" 4x at ELS 2015-04-24T20:43:27Z jackdaniel: and you'll have a few clues what isn't finished there 2015-04-24T20:43:43Z arrdem quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T20:44:18Z manuel___ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T20:44:58Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-24T20:46:19Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-24T20:48:06Z alejandrozf: jackdaniel: sure, first I try to use then post it, etc... 2015-04-24T20:48:37Z jackdaniel: alejandrozf: sounds great :-) 2015-04-24T20:49:07Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-24T20:49:34Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-24T20:50:32Z alejandrozf: Hope more people got the idea... 2015-04-24T20:58:39Z alejandrozf: I feel some sadness when I see such a very powerfull language(CL) behind Clojure, wich is a good Lisp but with minor flexibility ... bye for now! 2015-04-24T20:59:03Z alejandrozf quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-24T20:59:29Z Alfr joined #lisp 2015-04-24T21:04:21Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2015-04-24T21:06:20Z BRPocock quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-24T21:07:07Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-24T21:11:21Z DruidGreeneyes joined #lisp 2015-04-24T21:11:46Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T21:16:12Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-24T21:16:37Z harish_ quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2015-04-24T21:17:22Z Slothel quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-24T21:17:27Z jimmie__ is now known as Slothel 2015-04-24T21:17:40Z Slothel: I don't know what I would do without GHOST 2015-04-24T21:17:46Z Slothel: I've got this channel up in like 4 different computers 2015-04-24T21:17:48Z css106420_ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T21:18:20Z ecraven: Slothel: is that an irc bouncer? 2015-04-24T21:18:21Z kami: Fare: I have a git repo containing non-lisp files which I would like to load from other systems. Can I create an asdf system which doesn't have any lisp code in it? 2015-04-24T21:18:45Z Slothel: ecraven: It's just an IRC command to kill your other sessions remotely 2015-04-24T21:18:57Z jimmie_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T21:19:18Z ecraven: ah, ok 2015-04-24T21:19:32Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-24T21:19:39Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-04-24T21:19:46Z kami: only modules with (:static-file ...) 2015-04-24T21:19:58Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-24T21:20:07Z Oddity quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-24T21:20:20Z Slothel: So I'm trying to learn VIM for Lisp dev. and was wondering if anyone could answer this question 2015-04-24T21:20:40Z Slothel: If I use vim-plug to install slimv, do I still need to edit vimrc manually or how exactly do I call this vimplug script 2015-04-24T21:20:51Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-04-24T21:21:06Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-04-24T21:21:32Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-04-24T21:21:53Z axion: did you read the docs? 2015-04-24T21:22:22Z Slothel: axion: I read the information on the vim.org page for it 2015-04-24T21:22:27Z Slothel: axion: But it's still not clear to me 2015-04-24T21:23:53Z axion: here's my config https://github.com/axionix/dotfiles/tree/master/.vim 2015-04-24T21:24:36Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2015-04-24T21:27:29Z Fare: kami: sure. So that you may use system-relative-pathname ? 2015-04-24T21:27:41Z kami: Fare: yes. 2015-04-24T21:27:42Z Fare: and/or component-pathname ? 2015-04-24T21:28:02Z Fare: that's clever 2015-04-24T21:28:13Z Fare: but not overly clever 2015-04-24T21:28:19Z kami: :) 2015-04-24T21:28:38Z kami: Do you see any problem with this approach? 2015-04-24T21:29:31Z Leberecht quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )) 2015-04-24T21:29:51Z Leberecht joined #lisp 2015-04-24T21:30:09Z jackdaniel: wee, new version of bdwgc for ecl builds on M$ \o/ good night (: -- /proud 2015-04-24T21:30:16Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-04-24T21:30:22Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-24T21:31:55Z Leberecht quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-24T21:34:40Z rhllor quit (Quit: rhllor) 2015-04-24T21:35:57Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-24T21:37:42Z bdr3552 left #lisp 2015-04-24T21:38:42Z sword joined #lisp 2015-04-24T21:40:52Z rm200910 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T21:41:13Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T21:43:04Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-24T21:45:57Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-24T21:49:03Z Oddity joined #lisp 2015-04-24T21:51:27Z eudoxia quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T21:52:22Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-24T21:52:41Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-04-24T21:55:18Z boshx joined #lisp 2015-04-24T21:56:02Z boshx quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-24T21:56:13Z boshx joined #lisp 2015-04-24T21:58:01Z sunwukong` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-24T21:59:41Z DruidGreeneyes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T21:59:48Z boshx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T22:00:45Z failproofshark: p_l: i beat. i reckon i don't have a snowball's chance in hell, but since i might as well give it a shot :D 2015-04-24T22:00:51Z failproofshark: *i bet 2015-04-24T22:00:54Z Vutral_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-24T22:01:46Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-04-24T22:01:46Z boshx joined #lisp 2015-04-24T22:01:53Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-04-24T22:02:10Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-24T22:02:28Z boshx quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-24T22:04:46Z hapax joined #lisp 2015-04-24T22:04:48Z gnfz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-24T22:05:01Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-04-24T22:05:06Z hapax is now known as Guest51552 2015-04-24T22:06:19Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-24T22:09:30Z Guest51552 left #lisp 2015-04-24T22:09:33Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-04-24T22:10:45Z legomenon joined #lisp 2015-04-24T22:14:41Z bjorkintosh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-24T22:16:26Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-24T22:19:19Z Gasoline joined #lisp 2015-04-24T22:19:40Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T22:19:57Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-24T22:19:58Z boshx joined #lisp 2015-04-24T22:21:37Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-24T22:25:26Z kami left #lisp 2015-04-24T22:26:54Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-24T22:28:07Z Gasoline left #lisp 2015-04-24T22:33:00Z jasom: So you can't even view the parenscript mailing list archives unless you are a member of the list? 2015-04-24T22:33:50Z didi joined #lisp 2015-04-24T22:35:23Z manuel___ quit (Quit: manuel___) 2015-04-24T22:36:26Z didi: Is it possible to set environment variables in SBCL? I know one can get an environment variable value using `sb-ext:posix-getenv'. I actually want to tweak the environment of a subprocess that I create using `sb-ext:run-program'. 2015-04-24T22:37:09Z Bike: didi: there's st-posix:setenv 2015-04-24T22:37:53Z didi: Bike: Nice. 2015-04-24T22:38:00Z didi: Bike: Thank you. 2015-04-24T22:38:03Z Bike: np 2015-04-24T22:39:28Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2015-04-24T22:40:07Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-24T22:40:34Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T22:42:18Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-24T22:42:43Z boshx quit (Quit: Client Terminated) 2015-04-24T22:42:56Z nell joined #lisp 2015-04-24T22:45:47Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-24T22:47:16Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-04-24T22:49:46Z rm200910 left #lisp 2015-04-24T22:50:45Z boshx joined #lisp 2015-04-24T22:51:30Z didi left #lisp 2015-04-24T22:51:48Z Pastaf joined #lisp 2015-04-24T22:57:21Z tajjada quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-24T23:02:08Z mood: Does anyone have issues with Clisp builds failing on Travis-CI? Somewhere along the lines *package* appears to be set to COMMON-LISP. It's happening with both StumpWM and a library of my own. 2015-04-24T23:02:11Z boshx quit (Quit: Client Terminated) 2015-04-24T23:02:28Z rick-monster joined #lisp 2015-04-24T23:02:34Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-24T23:02:52Z mood: None of the things involved seem to have had any relevant changes in the last month or so, so I have no idea what's going on. 2015-04-24T23:03:59Z arnaudga left #lisp 2015-04-24T23:05:03Z hellome joined #lisp 2015-04-24T23:05:20Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-24T23:07:15Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-24T23:08:15Z rick-monster: hey anyone know a way to make format search for function names in current package when using strings like "~/my-function/" ? 2015-04-24T23:08:32Z rick-monster: here's a simple case showing the problem I have http://paste.lisp.org/display/147459 2015-04-24T23:10:58Z Jesin quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-24T23:13:07Z gabriel_laddel: rick-monster: I think you seriously misunderstand the purpose of format 2015-04-24T23:15:19Z Bike: rick-monster: ~// looks everything up in cl-user if there's no package prefix. (if you do ~/u:my-function/ it's fine) 2015-04-24T23:15:20Z rick-monster: gabriel_laddel the guy who wrote that uses the function u to print numbers in 'engineering units 2015-04-24T23:15:33Z Bike: foo:u i mean 2015-04-24T23:17:24Z gabriel_laddel: rick-monster: nevermind - re-reading your problem, this is a feature of format I'm unfamiliar with. 2015-04-24T23:20:03Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-24T23:20:31Z rick-monster: bike - hmm not totally satisfactory. The original author put all code in cl-user so that ~/u/ makes a handy shorthand 2015-04-24T23:21:31Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-24T23:22:03Z Bike: you could define u in the keyword package, so that you would type ~/:u/ 2015-04-24T23:23:41Z mood: On a similar note as what I said above, the Allegro builds have also started failing. This happens during install of Quicklisp 2015-04-24T23:25:01Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-24T23:26:49Z rick-monster: hmmm bike maybe I just let that one function sneak into cl-user for now it's not the end of the world... 2015-04-24T23:27:50Z Bike: it's a weird rule, to be sure 2015-04-24T23:28:03Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-24T23:29:37Z rick-monster: pretty sure a better way to do this is to put the engineering unit conversion in a reader macro rather than this cryptic ~/u/ malarky 2015-04-24T23:30:37Z Bike: well, dunno how well that works with complex format strings. 2015-04-24T23:33:14Z rick-monster: good point! 2015-04-24T23:40:21Z constantinexvi quit (Quit: Exiting) 2015-04-24T23:41:59Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-24T23:45:48Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-24T23:47:26Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-24T23:50:13Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-24T23:53:17Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-25T00:05:42Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-25T00:08:42Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-25T00:09:40Z hellome quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-25T00:10:22Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-25T00:11:18Z hellome joined #lisp 2015-04-25T00:11:19Z hellome quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-04-25T00:11:56Z jasom just uses the package name 2015-04-25T00:12:51Z jasom: e.g. ~/ltk:esc/ 2015-04-25T00:13:26Z logand joined #lisp 2015-04-25T00:19:26Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-04-25T00:23:30Z mogglebang quit (Quit: mogglebang) 2015-04-25T00:24:58Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-04-25T00:26:56Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-25T00:29:33Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-25T00:32:09Z pkok joined #lisp 2015-04-25T00:33:52Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-25T00:34:09Z JokesOnYou77 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-25T00:42:18Z linux_dream quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-25T00:45:48Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-25T00:46:43Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-04-25T00:47:50Z setheus joined #lisp 2015-04-25T00:57:47Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-04-25T00:58:58Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-04-25T01:00:24Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-04-25T01:05:38Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-25T01:06:37Z rick-monster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T01:12:26Z pacon joined #lisp 2015-04-25T01:15:58Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T01:16:14Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T01:17:02Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-04-25T01:17:59Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-04-25T01:18:07Z Slothel: jasom 2015-04-25T01:18:09Z Slothel: are you here? 2015-04-25T01:18:51Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-25T01:19:22Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-25T01:19:26Z linux_dream quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T01:19:54Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-25T01:20:23Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-25T01:24:28Z x1n4u quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-25T01:25:54Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-04-25T01:40:40Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-25T01:40:57Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-25T01:41:56Z npatrick04 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T01:42:07Z npatrick04 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T01:42:30Z npatrick04 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T01:44:31Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-25T01:46:42Z Slothel: This may be a stupid question but 2015-04-25T01:46:55Z Slothel: I've found that emacs doesn't crash Xorg in console mode 2015-04-25T01:47:05Z Slothel: does SLIME still work the same way in console-mode? 2015-04-25T01:47:09Z Bike: yes. 2015-04-25T01:47:13Z Slothel: Brilliant. 2015-04-25T01:47:28Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-25T01:47:42Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-25T01:48:50Z Adlai: this may be a stupid question, but has anybody used Ada's tasking facility, and would be interested in a concurrency library built in its image? 2015-04-25T01:49:11Z Adlai finds himself rapidly converging towards the "entry" idiom 2015-04-25T01:50:56Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-25T01:51:36Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-25T01:55:46Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-04-25T01:58:58Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T01:59:56Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-25T02:00:06Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-25T02:01:56Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-25T02:02:29Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-25T02:13:53Z legomenon quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-25T02:16:28Z jack-zhang joined #lisp 2015-04-25T02:18:06Z nell is now known as alusion 2015-04-25T02:18:35Z x1n4u joined #lisp 2015-04-25T02:19:47Z pjb: Adlai: well the distinctive difference of Ada with any other programming language (but perhaps latest C++ standards?) is that it explicitely specifies multi-threading semantics and primitive. A feath that even bordeaux-threads doesn't attempt. 2015-04-25T02:20:40Z Adlai has been building abstractions on top of chanl, which has fairly clear semantics 2015-04-25T02:22:03Z pjb: I've got the impression there are more multi-tasking lisp libraries than there are lisp applications using them… 2015-04-25T02:23:09Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T02:23:40Z Adlai: not unlikely 2015-04-25T02:24:27Z pjb: Adlai: what would be the ratio of applications/libraries? There are IIRC about 800 libraries in quicklisp alone. 2015-04-25T02:24:44Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-25T02:25:01Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-25T02:25:04Z Adlai: the one(s) I know/care about are chanl (the concurrency library) and scalpl (the application using it) 2015-04-25T02:25:14Z pjb: Even if a library has to be used by at least 2 applications and an application may use 10 libraries on average, that means we should see 160 applications. 2015-04-25T02:25:20Z Adlai: since chanl wraps bordeaux-threads, we already have a 2:1 ratio... 2015-04-25T02:26:14Z pjb: I really don't feel there are that many CL application, be it open source or in privative code, or else there is a very large hidden lisp base… 2015-04-25T02:26:59Z npatrick04: FYI, the quicklisp page mentions over 1300 libraries. 2015-04-25T02:27:10Z Adlai: although lisp blurs the line between "library" and "application"... 2015-04-25T02:27:38Z pjb: Another way, is to count lisp jobs. From the lisp job blog, I'd say there is about one lisp job per month. That's 12 companies a year, developping lisp applications. Even if we assume 10 year development livetime for lisp apps, that makes only 120 hidden lisp apps. Clearly, this is a gross overestimation. 2015-04-25T02:28:09Z pjb: Adlai: granted, some apps can be obtained with Quicklisp. If we could distinguish them we could perform more precise statististics. 2015-04-25T02:28:26Z pjb: But really, here the order of magnitude, is 10s of apps for 100s of libs… 2015-04-25T02:28:32Z pjb: if not worse. 2015-04-25T02:29:00Z Adlai: the way I use most libraries is as tools for accomplishing a specific task, rather than components for building an application 2015-04-25T02:29:08Z pjb: Granted too. 2015-04-25T02:29:29Z Adlai: once a task is repeated and needs automation, it becomes an application 2015-04-25T02:29:35Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-25T02:29:41Z hapax joined #lisp 2015-04-25T02:29:54Z pjb: I'm talking and counting apps here, because it's a way to reach a wider audience: have users install an app developed in lisp is a way to have lisp installed as a dependency on their system, and therefore of getting more developpers using it. 2015-04-25T02:30:04Z hapax is now known as Guest60772 2015-04-25T02:30:32Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-04-25T02:31:00Z npatrick04 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T02:31:37Z Adlai: too many times, while getting traders interested in scalpl, I hear, "oh this is so cool, I need to learn lisp!" and then nothing further 2015-04-25T02:32:14Z Adlai: my impression so far is that lisp is too large a departure from the algol family for the trojan horse approach to work 2015-04-25T02:32:16Z pjb: Is there a need for a lisp consulting/teaching company? 2015-04-25T02:32:41Z Guest60772 quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-25T02:32:54Z Adlai: aren't there already a few of those? eg clozure 2015-04-25T02:34:53Z clop2: hrmn... isn't javascript an acceptable lisp? (/me ducks, but much of Lisp has made its way into other languages...) 2015-04-25T02:35:04Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-04-25T02:35:55Z pjb: clop2: cf. McCarthy question to Norvig. 2015-04-25T02:36:13Z pjb: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1803627 2015-04-25T02:37:26Z Adlai: the trouble is that python doesn't need to manipulate python code as data, because that's what python programmers are for :-\ 2015-04-25T02:37:52Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-25T02:38:06Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-04-25T02:38:10Z pjb: clop2: you could define a programming language like lisp. You would just have to define a syntax that's nice to write data structures. That's the only thing you have to. This is the only thing they don't do. 2015-04-25T02:39:08Z pjb: clop2: notice: json is not a nice data structure syntax. 2015-04-25T02:39:39Z clop2: i'm not meaning to start an argument, i'll certainly grant that macros are powerful, etc 2015-04-25T02:40:03Z pjb: clop2: that's even not the point of lisp, macros were invented 5 years after LISP! 2015-04-25T02:40:22Z pjb: Notice how John didn't ask whether python had macros. 2015-04-25T02:41:16Z clop2: so can Lisp gracefully manipulate Lisp code as data? 2015-04-25T02:41:34Z clop2: what does that even mean? 2015-04-25T02:41:35Z pjb: there is no lisp code. 2015-04-25T02:41:38Z clop2: i've written macros for y ears 2015-04-25T02:41:42Z pjb: there is only lisp data. 2015-04-25T02:41:59Z pjb: clop2: lisp was invented in 1959. 2015-04-25T02:42:04Z Bike: i usually try to write applications as libraries now, even in other languages. like, unix applications are just libraries with a shitty interface, that you use in shell and shit. 2015-04-25T02:42:17Z PuercoPop: if js would be an acceptable lisp it would had a syntax akin to msimoni's wat.js: ["var", "x", "=", 1] :D 2015-04-25T02:42:19Z pjb: Bike: granted. 2015-04-25T02:42:48Z pjb: Bike: perhaps we'd need a special asdf target to generate app executables, so we may count quicklisp systems able to generate such apps. 2015-04-25T02:42:59Z Bike: doesn't it have that now? program-op or something? 2015-04-25T02:43:06Z pjb: PuercoPop: and notice how this is not nice. 2015-04-25T02:43:22Z pjb: Bike: perhaps. I only know load-op load-source-op and test-op. 2015-04-25T02:43:39Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-25T02:43:51Z Bike: compile-op! 2015-04-25T02:45:01Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Predefined-operations-of-ASDF here we go, compile-bundle-op and about thirty other names 2015-04-25T02:46:55Z legomenon joined #lisp 2015-04-25T02:47:24Z PuercoPop: pjb: yeah it was a poor attempt at humor on my part. Although msimoni took more than a year before he wrote the sexp parser. 2015-04-25T02:47:53Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-25T02:48:47Z Brozo quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-04-25T02:48:56Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-25T02:49:10Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-25T02:49:19Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-25T02:49:42Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-04-25T02:53:10Z gabriel_laddel: Adlai: why would you want others using scalpl? 2015-04-25T02:55:49Z didi joined #lisp 2015-04-25T02:56:42Z didi: If I want to make a string from a sequence of characters, (coerce '(#\f #\o #\o) 'string) is my best bet? 2015-04-25T02:57:14Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-25T02:58:01Z Bike: sure. 2015-04-25T02:58:15Z didi: Bike: Cool, thank you. 2015-04-25T03:02:49Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-25T03:03:02Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T03:04:13Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T03:06:13Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-04-25T03:06:50Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-04-25T03:15:47Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-04-25T03:16:47Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T03:19:02Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-25T03:19:17Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T03:19:23Z eazar001 quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-25T03:20:57Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-25T03:23:09Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T03:23:42Z eazar001 quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-25T03:25:18Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T03:25:28Z eazar001 quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-25T03:26:20Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T03:28:14Z eazar001 quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-25T03:28:31Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T03:29:01Z eazar001 quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-25T03:29:24Z clog quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-25T03:29:40Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T03:29:44Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-25T03:30:30Z eazar001 quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-25T03:30:56Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-25T03:31:20Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T03:31:30Z eazar001 quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-25T03:33:14Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T03:33:37Z eazar001 quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-25T03:34:26Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T03:40:23Z legomenon quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-25T03:44:36Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-25T03:44:51Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-04-25T03:44:52Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-25T03:48:52Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-04-25T03:52:21Z willft joined #lisp 2015-04-25T03:57:24Z badkins quit 2015-04-25T03:58:24Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-25T03:59:38Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-04-25T04:01:41Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-25T04:04:29Z beach joined #lisp 2015-04-25T04:04:38Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-04-25T04:11:22Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-25T04:25:00Z willft left #lisp 2015-04-25T04:28:57Z psy_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-25T04:32:55Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-04-25T04:34:42Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T04:35:14Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-25T04:36:07Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T04:42:29Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-25T04:45:30Z smokeink: 'morning 2015-04-25T04:48:09Z beach: Hello smokeink. 2015-04-25T04:51:55Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-04-25T04:56:13Z tuturto quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-25T04:57:28Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-04-25T04:57:40Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T05:01:24Z |PRisoNR| joined #lisp 2015-04-25T05:01:32Z |PRisoNR| left #lisp 2015-04-25T05:02:24Z didi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-25T05:04:18Z Brozo quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-04-25T05:05:35Z sunwukong` joined #lisp 2015-04-25T05:07:50Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T05:13:01Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-25T05:14:36Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-25T05:16:14Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-25T05:17:52Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-25T05:18:51Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-04-25T05:22:47Z axion: many ways to do it: (concatenate 'string '(#\f #\o #\o)) or (format nil "~{~a~}" '(#\f #\o #\o)) work as well 2015-04-25T05:22:49Z sheilong quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-25T05:23:32Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-25T05:23:49Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-25T05:24:34Z beach: Or just "foo". 2015-04-25T05:24:37Z beach: Much easier. 2015-04-25T05:25:19Z axion: i thought the question was regarding individual characters, but he is gone i just realized 2015-04-25T05:25:44Z beach: Oh, I didn't see a question. 2015-04-25T05:27:59Z beach: I see. Hours ago. 2015-04-25T05:29:40Z axion: aha you're right. i just glanced at the channel after many hours of coding. expected it to be the usual rate of messages...quite dead today it seems 2015-04-25T05:32:05Z c74d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T05:32:25Z Slothel: It's never particularly active 2015-04-25T05:33:52Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-25T05:34:06Z axion: Usually much more so, but both code and sleep are very good 2015-04-25T05:36:21Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-04-25T05:36:31Z protist joined #lisp 2015-04-25T05:38:14Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-25T05:42:54Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-25T05:45:26Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-25T05:47:12Z baotiao quit (Quit: baotiao) 2015-04-25T05:48:09Z Slothel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T05:48:29Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-25T05:49:18Z Slothel joined #lisp 2015-04-25T05:49:34Z Slothel: holy crap 2015-04-25T05:49:40Z Slothel: I just made a breakthrough with my emacs problem 2015-04-25T05:49:45Z Slothel: As result of a random mistake 2015-04-25T05:49:55Z Slothel: I was toying around with Xterm configuration 2015-04-25T05:49:59Z Slothel: just because 2015-04-25T05:50:04Z Slothel: and I enabled truetype fonts 2015-04-25T05:50:07Z Slothel: and right then Xorg crashed 2015-04-25T05:50:11Z Slothel: reproducible every time 2015-04-25T05:50:23Z Slothel: so if I can get emacs to not display truetype fonts I think I can use SLIME without it crashing 2015-04-25T05:51:02Z axion: or you can fix your Xorg driver 2015-04-25T05:51:26Z Slothel: Yeah, I knew that already. 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The way it uses both declares and asserts and other information provided by the programmer. 2015-04-25T06:37:22Z drmeister: Hello kami 2015-04-25T06:39:15Z vap1 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:39:29Z Slothel joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:40:38Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-25T06:43:18Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:50:57Z killmaster_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:51:11Z jdz_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:51:36Z musegarden1 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:51:43Z shifty779 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:52:30Z c74d3 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:53:05Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:53:08Z sellout- joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:53:30Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-25T06:53:30Z mtd joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:53:31Z gniourf_gniourf_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:53:35Z khisanth_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:53:58Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:54:21Z birk joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:54:42Z Slothel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T06:54:47Z smull_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:54:49Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:55:49Z zeroish quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-25T06:56:01Z d4gg4d_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:56:26Z az__ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:56:37Z Subfusc_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:57:02Z lifenoodles_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:57:13Z Bike_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:57:51Z sav joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:57:52Z whartung_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:57:55Z ivan4th` joined #lisp 2015-04-25T06:58:08Z drdo quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:08Z jdz quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:08Z mishoo quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:08Z c74d quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:08Z BlueRavenGT quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:08Z joneshf-laptop quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:08Z zacharias_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:08Z quazimodo quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:08Z gniourf_gniourf quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:08Z tmh_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:08Z whartung quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:08Z az quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:08Z tessier quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:08Z killmaster quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:09Z d4gg4d quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:09Z Khisanth quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:09Z Adlai quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:09Z Bike quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:09Z lifenoodles quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:09Z ivan4th quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:09Z mtd_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:09Z lonjil quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:09Z sellout quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:09Z rj-code quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:09Z Subfusc quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:09Z john-mcaleely quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:10Z smull quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:10Z musegarden quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:10Z shifty quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:10Z Zotan quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:10Z tkd quit (*.net *.split) 2015-04-25T06:58:10Z Subfusc_ is now known as Subfusc 2015-04-25T06:58:10Z killmaster_ is now known as killmaster 2015-04-25T06:58:15Z whartung_ is now known as whartung 2015-04-25T06:59:08Z beach: drmeister: Yeah. 2015-04-25T06:59:18Z d4gg4d_ is now known as d4gg4d 2015-04-25T06:59:19Z beach: drmeister: That part is not hard though. 2015-04-25T06:59:51Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:00:06Z beach: drmeister: Just make sure those macros expand into TYPEP and that TYPEP with a constant is recognized at compile time. 2015-04-25T07:00:34Z john-mcaleely joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:01:35Z az__ is now known as az 2015-04-25T07:01:40Z tessier joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:01:59Z thomas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T07:02:18Z thomas joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:02:20Z drmeister: We will still have to check out ecl's TYPEP to see if it's adequate - correct? 2015-04-25T07:02:43Z beach: TYPEP should be fine. The issue is with SUBTYPEP. 2015-04-25T07:02:54Z drmeister: Ok. 2015-04-25T07:03:26Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:03:36Z beach: But I think it ought to be possible to use the SICL SUBTYPEP. I might put it in Cleavir just to make sure it is used. 2015-04-25T07:03:44Z drdo joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:04:22Z rj-code joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:04:22Z tkd joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:04:50Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:04:57Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-25T07:05:08Z c74d3 is now known as c74d 2015-04-25T07:05:33Z Adlai joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:05:35Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:06:05Z drmeister: We discussed implementing NIL as a symbol or as a CONS. I'm implementing it as a symbol as you suggested. How could it ever be a CONS? (typep nil 'cons) --> nil 2015-04-25T07:06:17Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:06:33Z beach: drmeister: It's a bit more complicated. 2015-04-25T07:06:56Z beach: In SBCL they use a tag for LIST. 2015-04-25T07:07:03Z beach: So it can be either CONS or NIL. 2015-04-25T07:07:09Z drmeister: Right - I see that. 2015-04-25T07:07:22Z beach: Then they make sure that the layout of NIL is the same as that of a CONS cell. 2015-04-25T07:07:39Z drmeister: I see. 2015-04-25T07:07:41Z beach: So that if you take the CAR or the CDR, you have no further test to make. 2015-04-25T07:07:47Z egp joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:08:15Z drmeister: But that's different from having a tag for a CONS. If I dereference a tagged CONS, it can never be nil. 2015-04-25T07:08:16Z beach: But whenever you need to distinguish between NIL and a CONS cell, you now have an additional test to make. 2015-04-25T07:09:29Z beach: Right, having a tag for CONS is different from having a tag for LIST. 2015-04-25T07:09:39Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:10:00Z beach: If you have a particular tag for CONS, then a pointer with that tag must obviously point to a CONS cell. 2015-04-25T07:10:46Z drmeister: I understand. 2015-04-25T07:11:14Z drmeister: I've been wrestling with implementing the tagging scheme. Some of these things are only now becoming aparent. 2015-04-25T07:11:16Z drmeister: apparent 2015-04-25T07:11:20Z pjb: It's probably a good idea to make symbols and characters to be strings too, since there's a string-designator "type", and a lot of operators take such string designator objects. 2015-04-25T07:11:46Z beach: I disagree. 2015-04-25T07:11:48Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-25T07:12:12Z drmeister sees shades of TCL 2015-04-25T07:12:19Z pjb: Look how often people use symbols instead of strings eg. in package operations. Definitely, symbols should be tagged as strings, and handled as strings. 2015-04-25T07:12:23Z pjb: At least, in sbcl. 2015-04-25T07:12:38Z beach: I disagree. 2015-04-25T07:13:07Z pjb: I'm obviously ironic and critisizing sbcl decision of having a specific typetag for list and NIL. 2015-04-25T07:13:14Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T07:13:19Z beach: Oh. Whew! 2015-04-25T07:13:24Z tkd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-25T07:13:34Z beach: pjb: You made me worried there for a while. 2015-04-25T07:13:38Z pjb: :-) 2015-04-25T07:15:00Z pacon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-25T07:15:04Z tkd joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:15:53Z kami: Does slime have a facility to inspect the complete repl history at once? Instead of slime-repl-backward-input one entry at a time? 2015-04-25T07:15:54Z beach: I thought you had "pété les plombs". 2015-04-25T07:16:08Z drmeister: beach: Here's my tagging scheme 2015-04-25T07:16:20Z pacon joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:16:30Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/6e6d85abdba4bece37cb 2015-04-25T07:17:00Z beach: MY EYES!!! 2015-04-25T07:17:07Z drmeister: scroll down a little - it's from line 14 down. 2015-04-25T07:17:22Z drmeister: Yes, yes - it's very technical. 2015-04-25T07:17:25Z joneshf-laptop quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-25T07:17:38Z beach: Scroll? For line 14? No need. 2015-04-25T07:17:45Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:18:04Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-04-25T07:18:04Z drmeister: I've got 63 bits for fixnums 2015-04-25T07:18:14Z beach: Right, that's what we said. 2015-04-25T07:19:12Z drmeister: tags for objects (cons & other) and tags for immediates (character, fixnum, single-float) 2015-04-25T07:19:15Z beach: So you consider ptr to exclude cons? 2015-04-25T07:19:21Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-04-25T07:19:32Z beach: That is worth mentioning. 2015-04-25T07:19:34Z c74d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T07:20:01Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:20:05Z drmeister: All objects on the heap are either tagged with 0001(other) or 0101(cons) 2015-04-25T07:20:06Z sav is now known as tmh_ 2015-04-25T07:20:12Z tmh_ quit (Changing host) 2015-04-25T07:20:12Z tmh_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:20:19Z beach: Yes, I understand. 2015-04-25T07:21:14Z drmeister: I have a weird tag 0011 which I call a "frame". It's an array of pointers allocated on the stack. I use it in my interpreter to avoid having to set up evaluated arguments on the heap to call functions from C++. 2015-04-25T07:21:34Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:21:39Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:22:00Z beach: You could still use the ptr tag for that and just check the range to see whether it is on the stack or on the heap. 2015-04-25T07:22:28Z beach: Either choice is fine. 2015-04-25T07:23:12Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:23:13Z drmeister: I have three unused tags. 2015-04-25T07:23:31Z drmeister: Oh, that's a good idea. 2015-04-25T07:23:47Z beach: You probably need to do range checks anyway the day you do dynamic-extent by allocating on the stack. 2015-04-25T07:24:13Z drmeister: For the garbage collector? 2015-04-25T07:24:15Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:24:23Z beach: Yes. 2015-04-25T07:24:31Z drmeister: Good - I understand that. 2015-04-25T07:24:40Z beach: And if you have the same tag, no need to test it elsewhere. 2015-04-25T07:24:58Z beach: No need to have cons-on-heap/cons-on-stack difference. 2015-04-25T07:25:18Z drmeister: That's a problem for another day. I need to get this working first. I'm afraid that I've broken all sorts of code. 2015-04-25T07:25:27Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:25:57Z drmeister: I can't do this in small pieces - I have to change lots of code, all over the place. 2015-04-25T07:26:16Z beach: Sure. 2015-04-25T07:26:59Z beach: I had one question though. Does C++ dereferencing use the statically declared type to determine how to dereference? 2015-04-25T07:27:10Z beach: ... otherwise, you are in trouble. 2015-04-25T07:27:25Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-25T07:27:37Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:27:49Z keen________ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-25T07:28:06Z drmeister: Yes, C++ dereferencing uses the statically declared type to determine how to dereference. 2015-04-25T07:28:12Z c74d is now known as Guest37457 2015-04-25T07:28:17Z beach: Whew! 2015-04-25T07:28:46Z drmeister: I define a smart_ptr template class that dereferences by subtracting the "other_tag" 0x1 2015-04-25T07:29:08Z Guest37457 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-25T07:29:20Z drmeister: Then I specialize smart_ptr so that it dereferences by subtracting the "cons_tag" 0x5 2015-04-25T07:29:39Z drmeister: They don't go to memory to do the dereferencing. 2015-04-25T07:29:52Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:30:03Z beach: I have to trust you on that one. I don't have enough knowledge to have an opinion. 2015-04-25T07:30:55Z drmeister: It's a pain in the backside but I have to duplicate a lot of code from the general case smart_ptr in the specialized case smart_ptr. This is what I meant by C++ template programming being like "tax forms". 2015-04-25T07:31:19Z beach: I see, yes. 2015-04-25T07:32:48Z beach: Oh, I had another (unrelated) question. 2015-04-25T07:33:21Z drmeister: Shoot 2015-04-25T07:33:35Z beach: How easy would it be to take some stuff written in C++ with multiple collaborating classes, and then move one of those C++ classes to the Common Lisp side of things? 2015-04-25T07:34:02Z Shinmera curses wildly about continuously running into the "too many open files" issue on his server 2015-04-25T07:35:52Z drmeister: beach: I don't know - I've been thinking about it. It depends on how tightly coupled they are. If class X uses member variables of class Y directly (y->foo) then the code that uses the member variables would have to be changed to use a functional interface. 2015-04-25T07:36:29Z beach: I see. 2015-04-25T07:36:33Z drmeister: But if it just uses virtual functions I think it would be easy. 2015-04-25T07:37:02Z beach: But using member variables directly is considered a bad idea 2015-04-25T07:37:04Z beach: right? 2015-04-25T07:37:14Z gniourf_gniourf_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-25T07:38:10Z beach: I mean, that's why we see tons of get_x/set_x, I suppose. 2015-04-25T07:38:43Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:39:19Z drmeister: I've heard different schools of thought. I'm pretty convinced that setters and getters are a bad idea - they slow things down and don't provide much benefit - but they would make this easier. 2015-04-25T07:39:46Z beach: Slow things down? I would think they would all be inlined. 2015-04-25T07:39:56Z vap1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-25T07:39:57Z beach: We are talking a static language after all. 2015-04-25T07:40:00Z drmeister: My current opinion is that you declare member variables that you want to allow people to access as public and let them have at it. 2015-04-25T07:40:18Z beach: Got it. 2015-04-25T07:40:30Z beach: Someone should do a benchmark of that though. 2015-04-25T07:40:33Z drmeister: Good point - but if they were virtual they would add an indirection. 2015-04-25T07:41:31Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:41:38Z drmeister: I think really what should be done is that you write methods so that you don't require one class to access the internals of another class. 2015-04-25T07:42:23Z drmeister: But I think what REALLY should be done is you shouldn't mess around with greasy kids stuff like single dispatch object oriented systems and you should use a proper object system like CLOS. 2015-04-25T07:42:36Z beach: Sure. We call that a "protocol", or an "interface" if it is a dumbed-down version with single dispatch. 2015-04-25T07:43:29Z beach: drmeister: I was just thinking of this "moving a class" idea as a path for migration. 2015-04-25T07:43:31Z drmeister: Right, there's a place for it. Most of the time I'll be writing single dispatch generic functions - but occasionally I'll need multiple dispatch. 2015-04-25T07:44:08Z beach: ... like take one class per week of your library for manipulating molecules. 2015-04-25T07:44:20Z drmeister: I've been thinking about it as well. I'd like to move some of my chemistry classes to CL. 2015-04-25T07:44:26Z beach: It will still run, but it will be faster every day and more flexible. 2015-04-25T07:44:54Z drmeister: Lets see. If we can make this compiler really perform then I'll consider it. 2015-04-25T07:45:14Z beach: That would definitely be a prerequisite, yes. 2015-04-25T07:45:17Z drmeister: I never thought Common Lisp could be that fast. I'm learning that it can be. 2015-04-25T07:45:46Z drmeister: If we can make this really perform I think the folks at Google will be interested in it. 2015-04-25T07:45:50Z beach: Oh, I have always told my students that "It is impossible to write a C++ program that is both fast and modular". I maintain that. 2015-04-25T07:46:28Z beach: If it is modular, then you need reference counters and overloaded assignments or systematic copying, so you are already a factor 100 slower. 2015-04-25T07:48:17Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T07:50:26Z drmeister: Agreed. For the molecule building code, I want a really fast engine for calculating geometries - it's almost like a rendering pipeline. I need to build an atom tree, calculate 3D geometry, mutate dihedral angles and then recalculate geometry many times. There's no consing. Then I'll throw the whole thing away or make minor modifications. Occasionally 2015-04-25T07:50:26Z drmeister: I'll throw the whole thing out and start again. 2015-04-25T07:50:47Z drmeister: I better get to bed. I just realized it's almost 4:00am 2015-04-25T07:51:12Z beach: Sure. Talk later. Good night. 2015-04-25T07:51:39Z drmeister: I'll talk to you tomorrow. I've got a few more days of refactoring the C++ code before I can test it. 2015-04-25T07:51:53Z beach: OK. 2015-04-25T07:52:06Z drmeister: It's a compile, fix a compiler error, compile, fix a compiler error ... cycle 2015-04-25T07:52:23Z beach: I feel your pain. 2015-04-25T07:52:49Z beach vanishes for a while. 2015-04-25T07:53:34Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:54:21Z keen_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T07:59:29Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-25T08:01:17Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-25T08:01:54Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-25T08:05:28Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-25T08:07:06Z keen_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-25T08:08:51Z Mon_Ouie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T08:09:20Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-25T08:11:25Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-25T08:13:20Z dorkclit joined #lisp 2015-04-25T08:13:24Z dorkclit: HI NIGGERS!!! 2015-04-25T08:13:35Z dorkclit: =D 2015-04-25T08:13:50Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-04-25T08:14:54Z pkok left #lisp 2015-04-25T08:15:51Z dorkclit quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-04-25T08:21:18Z pjb: Shinmera: use ulimit or set the corresponding kernel parameter. 2015-04-25T08:21:30Z pjb: kami: the history is obviously stored in emacs, so you can write some elisp code to collect it and put it in a buffer for a global view. 2015-04-25T08:22:05Z pjb: kami: notice that you can also use CL:DRIBBLE to save to a file (but it's implementation dependent whether output is written too in addition to input). 2015-04-25T08:26:00Z hiroakip quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T08:29:21Z keen_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T08:30:51Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-25T08:31:09Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-04-25T08:34:07Z clog quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-25T08:34:42Z clog joined #lisp 2015-04-25T08:38:24Z troydm joined #lisp 2015-04-25T08:40:32Z gniourf_gniourf_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T08:40:39Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-25T08:44:20Z shka joined #lisp 2015-04-25T08:44:24Z shka: hello 2015-04-25T08:44:53Z shka: what does "12 lambdas converted" in sbcl time output means? 2015-04-25T08:44:53Z joga_ is now known as joga 2015-04-25T08:45:05Z joga quit (Changing host) 2015-04-25T08:45:05Z joga joined #lisp 2015-04-25T08:45:13Z beach: Hello shka. 2015-04-25T08:45:30Z beach: Maybe "lambda" = "function"? 2015-04-25T08:45:41Z beach: or perhaps "anonymous function". 2015-04-25T08:46:35Z shka: beach: quoted text is literally taken from repl 2015-04-25T08:46:43Z on4k joined #lisp 2015-04-25T08:47:02Z beach: What was the thing you timed? 2015-04-25T08:47:14Z shka: function call 2015-04-25T08:47:25Z beach: Hmm. 2015-04-25T08:47:38Z shka: rather long, brute force algorithm 2015-04-25T08:47:51Z shka: so it takes a long time to finish 2015-04-25T08:48:01Z shka: so i set optimize all for speed 2015-04-25T08:48:17Z beach: But you just typed one form calling a function, and that is what you timed? 2015-04-25T08:48:17Z munksgaa1d joined #lisp 2015-04-25T08:48:48Z shka: literally i typed (time (demo)) 2015-04-25T08:49:09Z shka: however, demo calls other functions, which calls other functions 2015-04-25T08:49:14Z beach: Sure. 2015-04-25T08:49:32Z beach: I think you need to check with someone in #sbcl. 2015-04-25T08:49:44Z shka: ok 2015-04-25T08:49:50Z shka: thanks for sugestion 2015-04-25T08:49:52Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-25T08:50:02Z beach: Sure. Sorry I couldn't be of any help. 2015-04-25T08:51:24Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-25T08:51:25Z scymtym_: shka: does TIME report these conversion if you run the (unmodified) code again? does your code involve generic function calls? 2015-04-25T08:51:47Z shka: scymtym_: yes! there are generic function calls 2015-04-25T08:51:57Z shka: give me a second i will try with it 2015-04-25T08:52:26Z scymtym_: shka: i think it means that the compiler was invoked within the TIMEd code 2015-04-25T08:52:50Z scymtym_: calling generic functions for the first can do that because some dispatch functions are compiled at invocation time 2015-04-25T08:52:58Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-25T08:52:59Z scymtym_: *for the first time 2015-04-25T08:53:23Z beach: Makes sense. 2015-04-25T08:54:21Z gniourf_gniourf_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-04-25T08:54:51Z shka: so i replaced some of the generic functions with plane old functions 2015-04-25T08:54:58Z shka: and it indeed, changes the output 2015-04-25T08:55:32Z beach: shka: What scymtym_ was saying is that it would be enough to run the test a second time. 2015-04-25T08:55:56Z scymtym_: shka: as long as you do not change the generic functions while the TIMEd code runs, just running it twice should get rid of any compiler invocation ... what beach said 2015-04-25T08:58:41Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-25T08:59:42Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-25T09:00:31Z shka: scymtym_: it does not, though 2015-04-25T09:00:34Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-25T09:00:58Z shka: but replacing generic functions makes the difference 2015-04-25T09:01:18Z d4ryus__ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T09:01:56Z beach: Very strange. That means it is calling the compiler for each invocation. 2015-04-25T09:03:13Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T09:03:16Z scymtym_: shka: did your code redefine generic functions, for example by adding/removing methods? or did it continuously supply new types of arguments like instances of freshly (re)defined classes? 2015-04-25T09:03:48Z shka: nope 2015-04-25T09:03:54Z shka: it is simple algorithm 2015-04-25T09:03:56Z scymtym_: interesting 2015-04-25T09:03:57Z shka: nothing fancy 2015-04-25T09:04:14Z guicho-- joined #lisp 2015-04-25T09:04:18Z shka: oh sorry 2015-04-25T09:04:22Z shka: i was wrong! 2015-04-25T09:04:42Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-25T09:04:47Z shka: scymtym_: sorry for confusion, you are indeed right 2015-04-25T09:05:02Z scymtym_: phew, got me worried there 2015-04-25T09:05:04Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-04-25T09:05:10Z shka: i was loking at wrong ouptput 2015-04-25T09:05:26Z shka: scymtym_: yeah, sorry for that 2015-04-25T09:05:34Z scymtym_: no problem 2015-04-25T09:06:23Z shka: glad that you explained it 2015-04-25T09:07:01Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-25T09:07:41Z scymtym_: regardless of TIME output, if you are looking for optimal performance and generic function call overhead is an issue, your non-generic-function version maybe still be a win 2015-04-25T09:08:43Z beach: Unless you have a system that uses the SICL generic-function dispatch method. :) 2015-04-25T09:09:39Z shka: beach: i use sbcl for now 2015-04-25T09:09:46Z shka: but looking forward for clasp 2015-04-25T09:09:57Z shka: hopefully i can contribute to it 2015-04-25T09:10:02Z beach: That's not quite what I meant, though. :) 2015-04-25T09:10:16Z shka: scymtym_: suprisingly, difference is minimal 2015-04-25T09:10:20Z ehu: beach: your generic function dispatch in sicl is as fast as a non-generic function ? 2015-04-25T09:10:45Z beach: ehu: As fast as a function that needs to test the type of its argument. 2015-04-25T09:11:00Z scymtym_: shka: that's not surprising: many things can be more of a bottleneck than generic function calls 2015-04-25T09:11:11Z shka: beach: oh, i thought that sicl is lisp compiler 2015-04-25T09:11:15Z scymtym_: beach: is that the dispatch based on version numbers associated to classes? 2015-04-25T09:11:23Z shka: but in fact it is something differenct 2015-04-25T09:11:32Z beach: scymtym_: Yes. 2015-04-25T09:12:22Z boshx joined #lisp 2015-04-25T09:12:22Z beach: shka: It is a bunch of modules and (ultimately) a Common Lisp implementation. I have no control over whether Clasp will use the SICL generic dispatch mechanism. 2015-04-25T09:12:51Z scymtym_: beach: thanks. i have to read that paper again 2015-04-25T09:13:04Z boshx left #lisp 2015-04-25T09:13:08Z shka: beach: yeah, i see 2015-04-25T09:13:13Z beach: scymtym_: When you do, let me know what you think. 2015-04-25T09:13:52Z scymtym_: beach: sure 2015-04-25T09:14:25Z Shinmera: pjb: The limits are high enough. For some reason hunchentoot stops closing dead connections. 2015-04-25T09:14:33Z guicho-- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-25T09:14:52Z guicho-- joined #lisp 2015-04-25T09:15:08Z guicho-- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-25T09:15:17Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-04-25T09:15:23Z guicho-- joined #lisp 2015-04-25T09:16:21Z PuercoPop: Shinmera: could it be related to this bug? https://github.com/edicl/hunchentoot/commit/dc7d2d02024d0781be4a83d0bff472246a4ac766 2015-04-25T09:16:57Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: I can't tell what that fixes precisely. 2015-04-25T09:17:36Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-25T09:17:59Z Shinmera: All I know is that, at some point my server stops accepting connections because it ran out of FDs. Shutting down hunchentoot is then impossible as it just waits forever for the acceptor thread to stop and never frees the FDs. 2015-04-25T09:18:04Z Shinmera: So I have to restart the image. 2015-04-25T09:18:13Z Shinmera: *runs 2015-04-25T09:18:42Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-04-25T09:18:42Z guicho-- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-25T09:18:50Z PuercoPop: It the description of the PR describes the same problem you are describing https://github.com/edicl/hunchentoot/pull/89 2015-04-25T09:18:56Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T09:19:06Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-04-25T09:20:18Z Shinmera: I'm not using hunchentoot SSL. It's proxied through Apache. 2015-04-25T09:21:21Z Shinmera: I suppose the latter problem described in the pull request might be what I'm hitting though. 2015-04-25T09:22:05Z mvilleneuve quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-25T09:22:44Z axion: hmm, how can you reproduce this? 2015-04-25T09:22:59Z axion: i've been running hunchentoot for about a year proxied through nginx without this issue 2015-04-25T09:23:40Z Shinmera: I don't know. 2015-04-25T09:24:26Z Shinmera: If I had a good idea on how to reproduce and analyse it, I would've done so already. 2015-04-25T09:26:13Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-25T09:27:38Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-25T09:28:23Z tuturto joined #lisp 2015-04-25T09:29:35Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-25T09:30:18Z munksgaa1d quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-25T09:31:02Z Bike_ is now known as Bike 2015-04-25T09:32:04Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-25T09:34:14Z Niac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T09:34:59Z ziocroc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-25T09:35:28Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-25T09:35:55Z Adlai: way to piss of lisp programmers, #764: end every line with a semicolon 2015-04-25T09:35:58Z hitecnologys: Hello, #lisp. If I wanted to dispatch on instance's slot value, where would I start? Are there any existing implementations or I need to do one by myself? 2015-04-25T09:36:26Z Adlai: (defmacro slot-case ..) 2015-04-25T09:37:04Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-04-25T09:38:32Z hitecnologys: Adlai: wouldn't work since I may need to specify dispatchers in different parts of library and redefine them in programs that use my library. I could go for lots of levels of indirection involving function calls and associative tables but I'd prefer something method-oriented. 2015-04-25T09:39:06Z Adlai: (define-method-combination slot-case ..) 2015-04-25T09:39:50Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-25T09:39:54Z Adlai: for inspiration and ridicule, see https://github.com/zkat/chanl/blob/master/src/actors.lisp#L75 2015-04-25T09:40:14Z Adlai: (and the methods on #'perform in the same file) 2015-04-25T09:40:40Z hitecnologys: Oh, that seems to be what I'm looking for. Thanks. 2015-04-25T09:41:42Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-25T09:43:45Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-25T09:43:50Z Adlai: np 2015-04-25T09:44:13Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-25T09:44:36Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-25T09:44:58Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-25T09:49:31Z Adlai: hitecnologys: note the despicable abuse done to trick CLOS into tolerating multiple methods within the same group that differ only in qualifiers 2015-04-25T09:50:01Z Adlai should probably factor out (defmacro define-nonstrict-combination ..) and submit to method-combination-utilities 2015-04-25T09:50:25Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-25T09:50:47Z hitecnologys: Adlai: you mean that ECASE thing? 2015-04-25T09:51:14Z Adlai: no, this chunk https://github.com/zkat/chanl/blob/master/src/actors.lisp#L76-L85 2015-04-25T09:52:04Z hitecnologys: Ah, yeah, I see. 2015-04-25T09:52:20Z Adlai: when those method groups were defined explicitly, the three methods at the end of the file would trigger an error because CLHS effectively requires method dispatch to be deterministic 2015-04-25T09:53:50Z hitecnologys: I see. 2015-04-25T09:54:26Z Raimondii joined #lisp 2015-04-25T09:55:17Z Pastaf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-25T09:55:18Z Raimondii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T09:56:14Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-04-25T09:56:54Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-25T09:57:06Z Raimondi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T09:59:07Z Adlai: hitecnologys: would this macro help your use-case? 2015-04-25T10:02:19Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-04-25T10:02:34Z hitecnologys: Adlai: not sure, I'm still studying the code. I'm writing a networking library and I have two types of connections stateful and stateless. The former requires storing additional data about connection status since some initialization has to be done before connection could be considered established (maybe create some objects, set some parameters, increment counters, etc; it's all up to user). This is why I want 2015-04-25T10:02:35Z hitecnologys: to dispatch on slot (since STATUS is slot of class CONNECTION). 2015-04-25T10:03:31Z hitecnologys: I guess it does fit my purpose. 2015-04-25T10:03:45Z Adlai: well maybe try explicit method groups first, like https://github.com/adlai/scalpl/blob/master/actor.lisp#L113 2015-04-25T10:04:13Z Adlai: (which is actually broken code) 2015-04-25T10:05:02Z Raimondii joined #lisp 2015-04-25T10:05:35Z Adlai: although I imagine that you'll need the nonstrictness, if you want to do (defmethod process slot-name slot-type (...) ..) 2015-04-25T10:06:10Z hitecnologys: I tried that but I don't want to pass any additional parameters. I probably could add function DISPATCH-CONNECTION, that'd call similar method with slot value as one of arguments but yeah, I could run into cases where this won't work and then I'll have two problems. 2015-04-25T10:06:43Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-25T10:07:29Z hitecnologys: And I'm pretty sure I will run into them since I plan to allow users specifying their own states unrelated to connection states that the library should handle too. (Like :authorized/:non-authorized). 2015-04-25T10:08:04Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-25T10:08:16Z pjb: Adlai: M-x replace-regexp RET ;.* RET RET 2015-04-25T10:08:55Z Adlai: well there are two nuisances here: if you use a helper genfun for generic dispatch on the slot value, then you can only dispatch on classes; but if you use a qualifier to specify the type, you have to deftype all your type specifiers, because qualifiers must be atoms 2015-04-25T10:09:01Z pjb: Adlai: or M-x replace-regexp RET [^\];[^"|].* RET RET 2015-04-25T10:09:06Z hitecnologys: pjb: I'd rather do s/;[ ]*$// since your regexp will remove all the comments. 2015-04-25T10:09:33Z pjb: yes, if the comments are "empty". 2015-04-25T10:09:57Z Adlai concludes that using a qualifier type specifier is the lesser of two weevils 2015-04-25T10:10:23Z hitecnologys: pjb: wouldn't .* match all the characters? 2015-04-25T10:10:51Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-25T10:12:48Z Raimondii is now known as Raimondi 2015-04-25T10:16:42Z pjb: (defun f (x) ; 1 / (if (zerop x) ; 2 / 1 ; trois / (* x (f (1- x))))) ; 4 / 2015-04-25T10:17:57Z hitecnologys: Huh? You can terminate ';' comments? 2015-04-25T10:18:20Z pjb: No here / represents a new line. 2015-04-25T10:18:45Z pjb: Otherwise, of course, ; comments are terminated! (by a newline) 2015-04-25T10:18:56Z hitecnologys: Ah, I see. 2015-04-25T10:21:05Z Adlai: lisp poetry 2015-04-25T10:23:08Z pjb: Yes, for example, you can write a nice lisp function, on the left column, and draw a nice diagram describing the algorithm on the right. 2015-04-25T10:24:05Z protist: I am attempting to use a raytracer I found online 2015-04-25T10:24:12Z protist: I am getting the error `FIND-CLASS: SINGLE-FLOAT does not name a class' 2015-04-25T10:24:30Z protist: it seems one of the methods saying that is the class of an argument is the problem 2015-04-25T10:24:40Z protist: my knowledge of CLOS is near non-existant 2015-04-25T10:24:45Z protist: anyone have a suggestion? 2015-04-25T10:25:16Z protist: I think one of the lines similar to this is the problem → (defmethod m* ((s single-float) (m matrix)) 2015-04-25T10:25:18Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-25T10:25:36Z scymtym_: hitecnologys: for dispatch based on the contents of instance slots, https://github.com/sbcl/specializable may also be interesting (note though: non-standard extension, research-quality code) 2015-04-25T10:25:45Z hitecnologys: protist: what implementation are you using? 2015-04-25T10:25:55Z protist: hitecnologys: https://github.com/afwlehmann/clrt-tutorial 2015-04-25T10:26:06Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-04-25T10:26:14Z hitecnologys: protist: I mean CL implementation. 2015-04-25T10:26:21Z protist: hitecnologys: ah clisp 2015-04-25T10:26:32Z protist: hitecnologys: I tried sbcl but had a different problem 2015-04-25T10:26:42Z protist: hitecnologys: this problem looks easier to solve, I could be wrong, though 2015-04-25T10:27:04Z hitecnologys: protist: I don't remember CLISP having single-float as well as SBCL. Try deftyping it to float. 2015-04-25T10:27:26Z protist: hitecnologys: well if I do (type-of 3.14) in CLISP, it returns SINGLE-FLOAT 2015-04-25T10:27:32Z hitecnologys: scymtym_: I'll take a look, thanks. 2015-04-25T10:28:47Z hitecnologys: protist: oh, I see. No idea then on what's wrong. 2015-04-25T10:28:57Z protist: hitecnologys: hmmm...well thank you 2015-04-25T10:29:26Z protist: just for reference 2015-04-25T10:29:29Z protist: FIND-CLASS: SINGLE-FLOAT does not name a class 2015-04-25T10:29:31Z protist: The following restarts are available: 2015-04-25T10:29:33Z protist: SKIP :R1 skip 146 150 (DEFMETHOD M* (# #) ...)-13 2015-04-25T10:29:38Z protist: sorry thought that would be 2 lines 2015-04-25T10:30:03Z pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/+35SE 2015-04-25T10:30:27Z pjb: protist: your program is not conforming. 2015-04-25T10:30:38Z pjb: SINGLE-FLOAT is not a standard class. The standard class is FLOAT. 2015-04-25T10:30:45Z protist: pjb: ah 2015-04-25T10:30:52Z pjb: protist: ask for (class-of 3.14)! 2015-04-25T10:30:53Z protist: pjb: should I replace all instances? 2015-04-25T10:31:04Z protist: ah 2015-04-25T10:31:31Z pjb: Probably. If you want to use it, making it conforming would be a good thing. 2015-04-25T10:32:08Z protist: pjb: did a sed -i 's/single-float/float/g' linalg.lisp 2015-04-25T10:32:12Z pjb: There are people who proud themselve of writing sbcl code instead of writing Common Lisp code. They're idiots IMO. 2015-04-25T10:32:22Z protist: pjb: runs now...but I got a "floating point underflow" before it completed 2015-04-25T10:32:39Z protist: pride* themselves 2015-04-25T10:32:45Z pjb: yes. Sorry. 2015-04-25T10:32:48Z protist: not picking, figure you might be foreign :p 2015-04-25T10:33:25Z protist: so floating point underflow....could I maybe use a more general number class? 2015-04-25T10:33:40Z protist: figure I am going out of the bounds a float allows 2015-04-25T10:33:52Z pjb: you would have to introduce double-floats. 2015-04-25T10:34:12Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-04-25T10:34:44Z pjb: If the program doesn't explicitely use double-floats, you may want to (setf *read-default-float-format* 'double-float) and reload it. 2015-04-25T10:34:50Z protist: pjb: got the underflow just trying to run this → (class-of 30000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000111111) 2015-04-25T10:35:33Z protist: pjb: thank you, trying that...running 2015-04-25T10:35:36Z pjb: Normal. 2015-04-25T10:35:39Z protist: pjb: hoping for success this time 2015-04-25T10:35:55Z protist: pjb: floating point underflow at 33% rendered :/ 2015-04-25T10:36:57Z protist: could be a namespace thing on the *read-defaul...* thing 2015-04-25T10:37:03Z protist: might should put it in the files somewhere 2015-04-25T10:37:35Z pjb: Without d0, it's read as the type specified by *read-default-float-format* which if single-float, has only e±127; but this number has more digits, and the parser used probably tries to divide a single-float by ten for each digit. 2015-04-25T10:38:10Z protist: EXPT: floating point underflow 2015-04-25T10:38:49Z pjb: Of course, the parser could truncate digits silently, I don't remember that it'd be forbidden by the spec. 2015-04-25T10:39:29Z EnergyCoffee joined #lisp 2015-04-25T10:41:09Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-04-25T10:42:58Z protist: pjb: one line to replicate issue: (expt .00001 199) 2015-04-25T10:43:14Z protist: pjb: hmmmm 2015-04-25T10:43:32Z pjb: Why do you say "issue"? This is perfectly normal and specified behavior! 2015-04-25T10:44:06Z protist: pjb: how can I force it to round or force it to coerce to something with more precision? 2015-04-25T10:44:21Z protist: pjb: well it is an issue for me at the moment, no fault of lisp :p 2015-04-25T10:44:37Z pjb: You can use the function ROUND, or in clisp you can use long-float. 2015-04-25T10:45:37Z protist: pjb: the problem is that I need to round in the middle of doing expt :p 2015-04-25T10:45:44Z protist: pjb: and only if needed 2015-04-25T10:45:54Z pjb: Then write your own expt function. 2015-04-25T10:45:57Z protist: pjb: I could write an alternative expt just for this :/ 2015-04-25T10:46:00Z protist: pjb: yeah 2015-04-25T10:46:01Z pjb: yes. 2015-04-25T10:46:02Z protist: pjb: thanks haha 2015-04-25T10:46:41Z pjb: If your implementation provides ieee-754 floating-points, perhaps it also provides ieee-754 rounding control functions? 2015-04-25T10:47:58Z protist: no idea 2015-04-25T10:48:31Z shka joined #lisp 2015-04-25T10:48:57Z pjb: for example, ccl has ccl::set-fpu-mode / ccl::get-fpu-mode 2015-04-25T10:49:14Z pjb: (ccl::get-fpu-mode) --> (:rounding-mode :nearest :overflow t :underflow nil :division-by-zero t :invalid t :inexact nil) 2015-04-25T10:49:45Z pjb: (expt 0.00001 4199) --> 0.0 2015-04-25T10:49:54Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-04-25T10:50:33Z pjb: (ccl::set-fpu-mode :underflow t) (expt 0.00001 4199) --> > Debug: floating-point-underflow detected > performing * on (9.999999E-21 9.999999E-21) 2015-04-25T10:50:56Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-25T10:51:41Z Saigut joined #lisp 2015-04-25T10:54:01Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-25T10:57:48Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-04-25T10:59:54Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-25T11:01:23Z Saigut quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-25T11:02:13Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-25T11:05:55Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-25T11:10:00Z guicho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T11:10:21Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-04-25T11:10:23Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-25T11:11:16Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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One of these properties was the ability to be convincing--rhetorically-- though you may have used different words 2015-04-25T11:53:25Z beach: Doesn't ring a bell. 2015-04-25T11:56:23Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-25T11:56:44Z k-stz: beach: my bad again; though I liked some of your other essays I read, especially "Continuous improvement" keeps lingering in my mind 2015-04-25T11:57:08Z beach: Thanks! 2015-04-25T11:58:22Z keen_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-25T11:59:05Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-25T11:59:34Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-25T12:00:23Z keen_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T12:00:37Z ir2ivps joined #lisp 2015-04-25T12:02:24Z nyef: Oh! Hello beach. 2015-04-25T12:02:38Z beach: Hi nyef! How are things? 2015-04-25T12:02:53Z nyef: A weird mix of crazy and calm. 2015-04-25T12:03:07Z beach: Sounds exciting. 2015-04-25T12:03:09Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-25T12:03:37Z nyef: My paid-work stuff seems to shift occasionally to evenings full of last-minute "we need this immediately" stuff with days of not doing much. 2015-04-25T12:03:45Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-25T12:03:59Z keen_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-25T12:04:07Z fikusz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-25T12:05:49Z keen_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T12:06:18Z Xach: shift timezones and you'll be all set 2015-04-25T12:08:16Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-25T12:09:30Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-25T12:09:57Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-25T12:10:29Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-04-25T12:11:28Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-25T12:11:56Z nyef: Xach: Not with the regular morning meetings as well, unless I shift something like eleven hours worth of time-zone... And even that's no good because there are occasional daytime requests as well. 2015-04-25T12:15:08Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-25T12:15:34Z pjb: nyef: it's a strategy to try to kill your soul more efficiently. Just leave after 8 hours. 2015-04-25T12:16:08Z Xach: all set 2015-04-25T12:16:41Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-25T12:21:11Z Xach: ELS was so energizing that I'd like to see if we can gather for a boston lisp dinner next month sometime 2015-04-25T12:21:48Z Shinmera: ELS had the opposite effect on me; I'm still tired 2015-04-25T12:22:33Z fikusz joined #lisp 2015-04-25T12:23:14Z Xach: I'm tired as can be, but hyped to hang out more with people doing fun lisp stuff and talking shop. 2015-04-25T12:23:32Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T12:23:41Z Shinmera: Ah. That I could do more with as well. 2015-04-25T12:24:15Z dxtr quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-25T12:24:33Z Xach: there have been some glum lisp conferences. ILC 2010 in reno was fun for the socialization but the program and attendance and location were not all that inspiring. ELS in London was the opposite. 2015-04-25T12:25:00Z Xach misses the blue, sunny skies of england, was struck by snowflakes at home yesterday morning 2015-04-25T12:25:08Z Adlai: bu36lbu 2015-04-25T12:25:10Z Adlai: blah 2015-04-25T12:25:13Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-04-25T12:25:29Z Adlai needs to type slower 2015-04-25T12:25:48Z Xach logs into Adlai's bank 2015-04-25T12:26:13Z Adlai: joke's on you, all i have is bitcoins 2015-04-25T12:28:55Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-25T12:30:21Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T12:30:53Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-04-25T12:32:41Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-04-25T12:33:45Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-04-25T12:37:11Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-25T12:42:52Z arbscht quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-25T12:42:53Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-25T12:56:52Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-25T12:58:16Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-25T12:59:17Z Merdam joined #lisp 2015-04-25T13:03:46Z nell joined #lisp 2015-04-25T13:04:00Z nell is now known as alusion 2015-04-25T13:07:03Z xinau joined #lisp 2015-04-25T13:10:34Z k-stz: wasn't els just the 3 talks on monday? 2015-04-25T13:12:08Z k-stz: oh http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/content-programme-full.html 2015-04-25T13:12:57Z Merdam: would you like to get fucked up the ass by a bunch of japanese guys after they've licked on your feet? Of course each one would pull out, jack off, and shoot his cum into your face. k-stz 2015-04-25T13:15:20Z nicdev` is now known as nicdev 2015-04-25T13:15:40Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-04-25T13:15:55Z cluck: :) 2015-04-25T13:16:07Z drmeister: Hi lispers 2015-04-25T13:16:26Z Merdam: would you like to get fucked up the ass by a bunch of japanese guys after they've licked on your feet? Of course each one would pull out, jack off, and shoot his cum into your face. cluck drmeister 2015-04-25T13:16:31Z drmeister starts the morning by slash-ignoring someone 2015-04-25T13:17:01Z pjb: drmeister: names! 2015-04-25T13:17:07Z Merdam: would you like to get fucked up the ass by a bunch of japanese guys after they've licked on your feet? Of course each one would pull out, jack off, and shoot his cum into your face. pjb 2015-04-25T13:17:19Z pjb: (it's obvious but still) 2015-04-25T13:17:31Z Merdam: awww drmeither thtarth the morning by thlath-ignoring thomeone 2015-04-25T13:17:43Z Merdam: I thought thith wath the lithp channel 2015-04-25T13:19:12Z drmeister: pjb: I should provide the name? 2015-04-25T13:19:55Z drmeister: Merdam 2015-04-25T13:21:09Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-25T13:21:25Z drmeister: Using C++ template programming I'm implementing a pointer tagging scheme suggested by kind people at ELS and I'm slowly shaking the compile time bugs out of my code. 2015-04-25T13:22:08Z oleo_ quit (Changing host) 2015-04-25T13:22:08Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T13:22:23Z oleo_ is now known as oleo 2015-04-25T13:22:42Z xinau quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-25T13:23:45Z drmeister: I'm also reading this paper http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.39.9203&rep=rep1&type=pdf - on the Nimble type inferencer for Common Lisp-84. It's darn near artificial intelligence applied to eliminating code paths from CL code using type inference. 2015-04-25T13:23:54Z Merdam: would you like to get fucked up the ass by a bunch of japanese guys after they've licked on your feet? Of course each one would pull out, jack off, and shoot his cum into your face. 2015-04-25T13:24:44Z drmeister is pretty much convinced its witch-craft. 2015-04-25T13:25:43Z Merdam quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-04-25T13:25:47Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-25T13:28:17Z drmeister: beach: All the Cleavir primops for the fixnum and float arithmetic are already in the code. I could already translate them to llvm-ir and write specialized code using them couldn't I? 2015-04-25T13:29:32Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-04-25T13:29:56Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-25T13:31:04Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-25T13:32:14Z drmeister: Like fixnum-add-instruction. For instance: I could implement fixnum-add-instruction using the llvm: declare {i64, i1} @llvm.sadd.with.overflow.i64(i64 %a, i64 %b) intrinsic. It generates code that does a signed 64 bit addition and checks for overflow. If there's an overflow I can promote it to a Bignum addition. That's the idea - right? 2015-04-25T13:34:16Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-25T13:35:27Z drmeister: Or wait: your fixnum-add-instruction has two successors - is one of them for the overflow case? 2015-04-25T13:35:30Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-04-25T13:35:36Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-25T13:35:42Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-04-25T13:37:06Z failproofshark: hello 2015-04-25T13:38:44Z drmeister: Hello 2015-04-25T13:39:29Z Shinmera: olleh 2015-04-25T13:39:29Z psy__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-25T13:39:54Z xinau joined #lisp 2015-04-25T13:40:39Z failproofshark: how are things drmeister Shinmera ? 2015-04-25T13:41:10Z Shinmera: I'm currently being probably all too pleased about having a really tiny function do a whole bunch thanks to macros. 2015-04-25T13:41:35Z the_real_intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-25T13:41:42Z drmeister: Pretty good. 2015-04-25T13:42:28Z the_real_intinig quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-25T13:43:10Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-25T13:43:19Z psy__ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T13:43:47Z the_real_intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-25T13:44:08Z yang quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-25T13:44:42Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-25T13:45:26Z failproofshark: Shinmera: the magic of macros :) 2015-04-25T13:45:27Z the_real_intinig quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-25T13:46:54Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-25T13:47:00Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-25T13:47:39Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-04-25T13:47:39Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-04-25T13:49:29Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T13:50:07Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-04-25T13:50:22Z nyef: drmeister: ISTR two things about the Nimble type inferencer. First is that it doesn't include CLOS (for obvious reasons). And second is that it breaks some of the rules about what can be assumed under CLHS, somehow, but I don't know the details. 2015-04-25T13:52:11Z yang joined #lisp 2015-04-25T13:52:34Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T13:55:31Z Raimondii joined #lisp 2015-04-25T13:57:56Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-25T13:58:14Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:01:24Z baotiao quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-25T14:02:22Z testerbit joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:02:38Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:02:48Z Raimondii is now known as Raimondi 2015-04-25T14:03:44Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:04:03Z testerbit: I just started learning lisp by reading: http://ep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/paulgraham/acl2.txt in sec 2.13 he shows a recursive function, but wouldn't the function also work without including our-length in the last line? 2015-04-25T14:05:05Z drmeister: nyef: Thanks - I noticed the absence of CLOS and I'll ask beach about breaking rules. 2015-04-25T14:06:40Z nyef: testerbit: The second definition of OUR-LENGTH? 2015-04-25T14:06:53Z testerbit: myef: yes 2015-04-25T14:07:28Z nyef: What would you use instead? 2015-04-25T14:08:49Z testerbit: (+ ((cdr lst) 1))) 2015-04-25T14:09:17Z testerbit: shouldn't that work? 2015-04-25T14:09:27Z nyef: No, that's not even valid syntax. 2015-04-25T14:10:20Z testerbit: if you drop the last paren 2015-04-25T14:10:32Z nyef: (+ (cdr lst) 1) won't work for the general case, either, though it would be possible to construct inputs that at least return a result rather than causing an error. 2015-04-25T14:11:03Z failproofshark: testerbit: the + function only accepts numbers as arguments. you cant add a list to a number 2015-04-25T14:11:28Z d4ryus__ is now known as d4ryus 2015-04-25T14:11:55Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:12:35Z jackdaniel: its (+ (our-length lst) 1) 2015-04-25T14:12:45Z jackdaniel: s/lst/(cdr lst)/ 2015-04-25T14:12:47Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-25T14:12:51Z jackdaniel: our-length returns a number 2015-04-25T14:12:54Z testerbit: failproofshark: how does wrapping it in our-length make it a number? 2015-04-25T14:12:56Z nyef: jackdaniel: Yeah, I was going to say, doesn't that blow the stack? 2015-04-25T14:13:13Z jackdaniel: no, there is at top reminder 2015-04-25T14:13:24Z salva joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:13:35Z jackdaniel: (defun our-length (lst) (if (null lst) 0 (+ (our-length (cdr lst)) 1)) 2015-04-25T14:13:46Z nyef: jackdaniel: No tail recursion, no change to the input argument... 2015-04-25T14:13:51Z jackdaniel: therefore it won't blow it 2015-04-25T14:14:00Z failproofshark: testerbit: when the function reaches the base case it returns a number to the caller 2015-04-25T14:14:02Z nyef: And, yes, you corrected yourself quickly, but still... 2015-04-25T14:14:06Z jackdaniel: hmm, if you have recusrive list, it will blow it 2015-04-25T14:14:08Z Raimondii joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:14:21Z nyef: And there's another error case for an improper list. 2015-04-25T14:14:28Z jackdaniel: but I can hardly imagine proper list doing that 2015-04-25T14:14:50Z failproofshark: so then this will occur (+ (our-length (cdr lst) 1)) -> (+ n 1) where n was what was returned to the caller 2015-04-25T14:14:52Z jackdaniel: yes, but it's introduction, general case first - to show technique, and digging deeper later 2015-04-25T14:14:59Z failproofshark: you have to keep in mind how things are evaluated in lisp 2015-04-25T14:15:01Z nyef: Right, a "proper" list ends with a CDR of NIL, by definition, so it can't be infinite. 2015-04-25T14:15:19Z salva: hi, a cl newbie here 2015-04-25T14:15:42Z failproofshark: oops i mean (+ (our-length (cdr list)) 1) -> (+ n 1) 2015-04-25T14:15:43Z jackdaniel: nyef: you can have *very* long list, and idd it can blow a stack, but it's a corner case - every non-tail-recursive stuff has this particular danger 2015-04-25T14:15:48Z jackdaniel: of very long data as input 2015-04-25T14:16:27Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-25T14:16:43Z salva: I had implemented a gethash-or-set macro that does exactly the same as ensure-gethash from alexandria 2015-04-25T14:16:52Z jackdaniel: testerbit: #'our-length returns either 0, or whatever returns #'our-length + 1 2015-04-25T14:16:59Z jackdaniel: so it always returns a number 2015-04-25T14:17:10Z shka joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:17:14Z salva: but then, I looked into alexandria code too see how well I have done it 2015-04-25T14:17:39Z salva: and well, the think is that alexandria version looks buggy 2015-04-25T14:17:56Z salva: and I don't know it it is actually buggy or if I am missing something 2015-04-25T14:18:04Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:18:27Z salva: alexandria version is here: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria/blob/master/hash-tables.lisp 2015-04-25T14:18:31Z salva: at the end of the file 2015-04-25T14:18:42Z k-dawg quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-25T14:19:28Z Raimondii quit (Quit: The road to wisdom?—Well, it's plain and simple to express: Err and err and err again, but less and less and less. — Piet Hein) 2015-04-25T14:19:37Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-25T14:19:43Z salva: unless I am overlooking something, alexandria version can evaluate the arguments key and hash-table twice 2015-04-25T14:19:54Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:20:00Z nyef: salva: You're not missing something. 2015-04-25T14:20:16Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-25T14:20:31Z testerbit quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-25T14:20:41Z salva: and also, the lexical variables value and ok are not hidden from the code in hash-table, key and default 2015-04-25T14:21:47Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:22:44Z nyef: Looks like you can't portably do anything useful in terms of get-setf-expansion here, but avoiding that multiple-evaluation and the variable capture should be straightforward. 2015-04-25T14:22:54Z xinau quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-25T14:23:40Z didi joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:25:08Z salva: nyed: is there any issue with just evaluating hash-table and key and saving them in lexical vars? 2015-04-25T14:25:48Z salva: nyed: oops, I think I don't get what you mean by the get-setf-expansion 2015-04-25T14:26:21Z nyef: Shouldn't be any issue with saving hash-table and key in lexical variables. You might even be able to use ONCE-ONLY to do it. 2015-04-25T14:26:58Z kami left #lisp 2015-04-25T14:27:59Z nyef: Oh! I missed the useful bit in CLHS 5.1.1.2. 2015-04-25T14:28:25Z didi left #lisp 2015-04-25T14:28:32Z voidpointer joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:28:34Z clop2 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-25T14:28:36Z xinau joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:28:41Z nyef: Hrm. 2015-04-25T14:30:39Z nyef: The GETHASH accessor is not self-consistent. 2015-04-25T14:32:36Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-25T14:32:44Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:34:02Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:35:54Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-25T14:36:12Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:36:52Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:40:13Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:42:59Z Gasoline joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:44:36Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:47:53Z xinau quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-25T14:51:10Z Karl_Dscc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-25T14:52:06Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:53:15Z beach: drmeister: Yes, you could translate the primops. 2015-04-25T14:53:34Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-25T14:53:48Z beach: drmeister: Yes, the idea is that when there is an overflow, you convert the result to a bignum. 2015-04-25T14:54:20Z beach: drmeister: Yes, one of the successors of the fixnum-add instruction is for overflow, and the other is for non-overflow. 2015-04-25T14:54:40Z drmeister: beach: Got it so far. 2015-04-25T14:56:03Z drmeister: What about nyef's comment about Nimble not handling CLOS and not following the rules of CL? (I'm paraphrasing) 2015-04-25T14:56:53Z drmeister: I'm only half way through the Nimble paper and I haven't digested the consequences yet. I'm just repeating what I heard on the street. 2015-04-25T14:57:40Z beach: drmeister: Like I said, I am not going to implement the exact algorithm. In fact, he doesn't reveal enough about it to do that. 2015-04-25T14:58:01Z voidpointer quit (Quit: voidpointer) 2015-04-25T14:58:02Z beach: With CLOS, one has to be careful because objects can change types. 2015-04-25T14:58:49Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-25T14:58:52Z beach: It is best to assume no knowledge of sub-types of STANDARD-OBJECT other than that they are sub-types of STANDARD-OBJECT. 2015-04-25T14:58:52Z drmeister: Ok, I see that. 2015-04-25T14:59:12Z pjb: nyef: what do you mean by gethash not self consistent? 2015-04-25T14:59:28Z drmeister: I've read that if we could freeze classes to guarantee that they won't change that code could run faster - is this related to that? 2015-04-25T14:59:53Z beach: drmeister: The other "problem" with the Nimble type inferencer is that it does backward inferencing as well. It might be necessary to treat the result of such inference with care. 2015-04-25T14:59:57Z drmeister: Sorry - too many questions at once. 2015-04-25T15:00:24Z nyef: pjb: The reader side of the accessor returns multiple values, with the second value being true if there is an entry in the table. Therefore, the WRITER side should be a multiple-value place, and if the second value is NIL (the default) then the entry should be removed from the table. 2015-04-25T15:00:31Z munksgaa1d joined #lisp 2015-04-25T15:01:11Z beach: drmeister: There is some work on class sealing. 2015-04-25T15:01:38Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-25T15:01:53Z pjb: nyef: yes, that could be specified that way. Instead we have remhash. 2015-04-25T15:02:06Z drmeister: "class sealing" - could we use that? Most of my applications wouldn't require mutable classes once they hit the supercomputers. 2015-04-25T15:02:39Z nyef: No, my point is: The read side of the accessor is a multi-value place, and the write side is not. It's not self-consistent. 2015-04-25T15:02:45Z pjb: nyef: notice that since the default for absent values is nil, (setf (gethash k h) v) would be equivalent to (remhash k h). 2015-04-25T15:02:53Z nyef: Yes, I know. 2015-04-25T15:02:57Z pjb: nyef: you'd have to always write (setf (gethash k h) (values v t)). 2015-04-25T15:03:09Z beach: drmeister: My initial hunch is to say that it is not worth the trouble. 2015-04-25T15:03:43Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-25T15:04:05Z beach: drmeister: It is based on eliminating the need for dispatch at run-time. But in safe code, you still often need to test the type of your argument. And then, the SICL dispatch technique is just as fast. 2015-04-25T15:04:43Z drmeister: I plan to implement that. 2015-04-25T15:04:45Z beach: drmeister: My advice is that you concentrate on tagging of FIXNUMs and CONSes and make sure you inline the operations on those. 2015-04-25T15:04:53Z drmeister: I also plan to implement first class global environments. 2015-04-25T15:05:02Z drmeister: beach: I'm working on it. 2015-04-25T15:05:13Z drmeister: I should shake out all the compile time errors tomorrow or the next day. 2015-04-25T15:05:16Z beach: You are looking at years of work here. 2015-04-25T15:05:19Z drmeister: Then it's the runtime errors (brrr) 2015-04-25T15:05:42Z drmeister: Years of work for what? 2015-04-25T15:05:45Z beach: I suggest you do one thing at a time and decide on the next thing to do based on performance tests. 2015-04-25T15:06:26Z beach: drmeister: Tagging, inlining, first-class global environments, SICL dispatch, ... 2015-04-25T15:06:50Z drmeister: Tagged pointers and then I'd like to test out the type inference if you have it ready. If not, I'll work on source tracking. 2015-04-25T15:07:05Z beach: Oh, forgot source tracking. 2015-04-25T15:07:13Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-04-25T15:07:15Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-25T15:07:44Z baotiao quit (Quit: baotiao) 2015-04-25T15:09:17Z beach: And you have to write all those compiler macros, then the binary functions, the version of AREF and (SETF AREF) that will do specialized arrays with unboxed numbers, etc, etc, etc. 2015-04-25T15:09:18Z drmeister: What I really want is something that demonstrates 10x faster performance within a couple of weeks. What do you think of that? 2015-04-25T15:09:33Z beach: drmeister: Good luck. 2015-04-25T15:09:45Z drmeister: No? Why not? 2015-04-25T15:10:00Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-25T15:10:09Z beach: I didn't mean to be contrary. 2015-04-25T15:10:20Z beach: I just can't promise things like that. 2015-04-25T15:10:55Z drmeister: If the type inference were in place then I could write a few macros and binary functions to demonstrate proof of concept. 2015-04-25T15:11:47Z beach: Proof of concept is a much more modest goal. I still can't do this against a deadline. 2015-04-25T15:12:05Z drmeister: A couple of days ago I thought I could copy/paste/hack declare-vops from SBCL - but Cleavir works in a very different way. 2015-04-25T15:12:41Z drmeister: I have no dead line other than that I'm dying here. 2015-04-25T15:12:48Z Ethan- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T15:12:57Z beach: I can't take responsibility for that. 2015-04-25T15:14:45Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-04-25T15:14:59Z drmeister: No, I guess not. 2015-04-25T15:15:02Z beach: Here is a problem I have always had as long as I can remember: The minute I have some work I HAVE to do, I completely lose interest in it. I still do it, but it becomes painful rather than enjoyable, and thus slower. I would like to avoid that. 2015-04-25T15:15:47Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-25T15:15:54Z drmeister: Well, I guess I'm not going anywhere. If there was something I could do to help it along I would be happy to do that. 2015-04-25T15:16:22Z beach: drmeister: Thanks for the offer. I will give it some thought. 2015-04-25T15:16:37Z beach: I do think you have plenty to do. 2015-04-25T15:16:47Z beach: You have to make sure Cleavir gets the AST and inline information. 2015-04-25T15:17:01Z beach: You need to write all those compiler macros, and implement the functions they expand to. 2015-04-25T15:17:06Z drmeister: Which AST and inline information? 2015-04-25T15:17:44Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-25T15:17:46Z beach: When you give a GLOBAL-FUNCTION-INFO to Cleavir, you must put the inline information and the AST for the function in there if you want it inlined. 2015-04-25T15:17:48Z drmeister: Right but without something to test it on - I'm can't be certain that I won't make mistakes. 2015-04-25T15:17:56Z beach: I am sorry, I thought we had discussed this several times. 2015-04-25T15:18:09Z beach: It will work right now. 2015-04-25T15:18:15Z beach: You can test it already. 2015-04-25T15:18:16Z drmeister: Oh, that inline information - right. 2015-04-25T15:18:34Z beach: Is there more than one? 2015-04-25T15:19:02Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-04-25T15:20:04Z drmeister: I wrote "inline" about 30 times last night in my C++ code. Forgive me if I don't context switch fast enough. 2015-04-25T15:20:19Z beach: I see. Sure. 2015-04-25T15:22:04Z beach: And I assume you want specialized arrays, yes? 2015-04-25T15:22:17Z beach: Then you need to write AREF as a compiler macro as well, 2015-04-25T15:22:31Z beach: Er, maybe not a compiler macro. 2015-04-25T15:22:48Z beach: But as a function that checks what type of array you are dealing with. 2015-04-25T15:23:14Z beach: Then you need to generate code for all those specialized array accessors. 2015-04-25T15:24:34Z drmeister: I guess what I'm doing is generating lots of code with runtime type checks and the type inference will elide out code paths and runtime type checks that aren't necessary - correct? 2015-04-25T15:24:45Z beach: Correct. 2015-04-25T15:25:20Z drmeister: So I'll get a speed increase by following the faster paths. 2015-04-25T15:25:27Z salva quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-25T15:25:31Z beach: By avoiding the tests, mainly. 2015-04-25T15:25:43Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-25T15:26:06Z drmeister: But I can't avoid the tests until Cleavir uses its type inference to do it. 2015-04-25T15:26:36Z salva joined #lisp 2015-04-25T15:26:38Z beach: Correct. And provided you supplied enough information that Cleavir can prove that the tests can be elided. 2015-04-25T15:27:20Z beach: But you can still test your code before the type inferences is in place. So lots of things to do. 2015-04-25T15:27:34Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-25T15:27:51Z drmeister: Right, I see that. 2015-04-25T15:28:08Z drmeister: Ok, I need to go and do some other stuff. I'll think on this. 2015-04-25T15:28:23Z beach: Great. 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GPL is viral. Infects everything it touches. 2015-04-25T19:05:10Z xinau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-25T19:12:09Z nyef: Also note that the license of the combination is not relevant unless you distribute it. If it's just running on a server somewhere then it doesn't matter. 2015-04-25T19:12:24Z renard_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T19:14:49Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-25T19:17:01Z Shinmera: nyef: Unless you have AGPL 2015-04-25T19:18:20Z nyef: Oh, FFS. 2015-04-25T19:20:04Z Bike: well, they don't, so oh well 2015-04-25T19:21:10Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-25T19:22:52Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-25T19:26:44Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-04-25T19:26:49Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-25T19:29:29Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-25T19:32:46Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-25T19:36:47Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-04-25T19:48:44Z prxq joined #lisp 2015-04-25T19:56:28Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T19:59:03Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-04-25T19:59:20Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-25T20:01:53Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2015-04-25T20:03:57Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-04-25T20:05:16Z protist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-25T20:09:56Z f3lp joined #lisp 2015-04-25T20:11:08Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-25T20:16:10Z gniourf_gniourf joined #lisp 2015-04-25T20:17:08Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-04-25T20:17:27Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-25T20:17:56Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T20:18:04Z pok_ is now known as pok 2015-04-25T20:19:24Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T20:19:48Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T20:19:54Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T20:20:02Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-25T20:23:58Z vap1 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-25T20:26:13Z beach left #lisp 2015-04-25T20:26:27Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-04-25T20:27:11Z Oddity joined #lisp 2015-04-25T20:27:32Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-25T20:28:35Z ggole quit 2015-04-25T20:29:13Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-25T20:30:52Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-25T20:39:30Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-25T20:40:04Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-25T20:42:56Z yasha9 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-25T20:43:15Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T20:43:26Z jackdaniel: well, I was wondering about something like readline for ecl, there is editline on bsd license (+ windows console port) 2015-04-25T20:45:08Z p_l: linedit? 2015-04-25T20:46:45Z jackdaniel: p_l: http://thrysoee.dk/editline/ 2015-04-25T20:47:28Z p_l: why libtoolized 2015-04-25T20:47:30Z p_l: ... 2015-04-25T20:48:19Z jackdaniel: hmm, I consider it nice - building static against your library, or building shared to link at runtime is transparent 2015-04-25T20:48:51Z jackdaniel: I think netbsd version was built-in to some apps, and this is extracted library 2015-04-25T20:49:14Z p_l: jackdaniel: also, i think someone did wfite a library in cl for that 2015-04-25T20:50:33Z jackdaniel: it's just an idea, I'm not going to integrate it before next release 2015-04-25T20:55:59Z antoszka: linedit is really nice, has persisent history and seems to be mostly native CL (rather than bindings to readline/libedit). 2015-04-25T20:56:20Z antoszka: I use it wherever SLIME is not useful/possible. 2015-04-25T20:59:30Z jackdaniel: hmm, I've hit a bug during this (not sure if it's asdf, or something else) - loading uffi from quicklisp fails, but ecl has uffi builtin 2015-04-25T20:59:40Z jackdaniel: (linedit depends on uffi) 2015-04-25T20:59:41Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T21:00:05Z antoszka: looks like something needing a portability fix ;) 2015-04-25T21:00:13Z jackdaniel: indeed 2015-04-25T21:00:35Z jackdaniel: anyway thanks, I'll keep in mind linedit (however it seems tightly coupled with sbcl) 2015-04-25T21:01:01Z antoszka: yeah, I'm not sure how well (and if at all) it works with other implementations 2015-04-25T21:02:29Z jackdaniel: anyways - gn :-) 2015-04-25T21:04:02Z salva left #lisp 2015-04-25T21:04:18Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-25T21:08:48Z antoszka: gn! 2015-04-25T21:09:01Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-04-25T21:10:57Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T21:13:04Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-04-25T21:14:00Z moei joined #lisp 2015-04-25T21:17:15Z holycow joined #lisp 2015-04-25T21:17:21Z holycow is now known as Guest63449 2015-04-25T21:20:30Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2015-04-25T21:20:30Z p_l: jackdaniel: afaik the most abcl-soecific thungs were in REPL support, the rest is plain old terminfo etc. 2015-04-25T21:31:31Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-25T21:32:25Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-04-25T21:36:44Z on4k quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-25T21:37:26Z Fare: So... which is the most used cl test system? 2015-04-25T21:37:43Z axion: fiveam? 2015-04-25T21:37:46Z mood: Fare: Probably FiveAM 2015-04-25T21:37:55Z Fare: ok 2015-04-25T21:38:24Z Fare: probably time to adopt it and make it the mother-of-all cl test systems, then. 2015-04-25T21:39:20Z mood: The Quicklisp download stats for March suggest Prove is used quite a bit too 2015-04-25T21:39:30Z PuercoPop: prove is giving it a run for its money according to quicklisp dl data 2015-04-25T21:39:48Z PuercoPop: and I find prove needs less ceremony than fiveam 2015-04-25T21:42:27Z Fare: could 5am be backward-compatibly enhanced to need as little ceremony as fiveam? 2015-04-25T21:42:31Z Fare: as prove 2015-04-25T21:42:31Z Fare: ? 2015-04-25T21:43:08Z PuercoPop: Fare: https://github.com/fukamachi/prove 2015-04-25T21:43:22Z PuercoPop: ah, not really 2015-04-25T21:43:55Z PuercoPop: to run a test in prove I just need to C-c C-c the statment, no need to create a test-package or suite or anything liek that 2015-04-25T21:44:02Z PuercoPop: and it certainly doesn't have fixtures 2015-04-25T21:44:55Z PuercoPop: so I can start writting tests without much concern and after a while organize them 2015-04-25T21:45:44Z emaczen: So I have a class 'article' whose superclass is 'entity' which has slots 'id, props' 2015-04-25T21:45:44Z minion: emaczen, memo from jackdaniel: your problems were due to lack of 32 bit libraries / compiler. Installing gcc-multilib, gcc-libs-multilib and lib32-libatomic_ops on archlinux solved the same problem for me 2015-04-25T21:45:45Z fe[nl]ix: Fare: about that, we could also baptise prove into that position and provide a few macros for 5am compatibility 2015-04-25T21:46:00Z emaczen: class article also has a slot called headline 2015-04-25T21:46:08Z emaczen: running: (setf ar (make-instance 'article :headline "woof!")) 2015-04-25T21:46:35Z emaczen: and then (headline ar) I get the error: There is no applicable method for the generic function # 2015-04-25T21:47:13Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-25T21:50:04Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-25T21:50:29Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-04-25T21:50:56Z jumblerg quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-25T21:52:05Z Fare: fe[nl]ix, that could work, too 2015-04-25T21:52:14Z Fare: low-overhead is always good. 2015-04-25T21:52:22Z normanrichards quit 2015-04-25T21:55:02Z emaczen: If I remove the inheritance it works as expected and returns the headline 2015-04-25T21:55:02Z emaczen: jackdaniel: you there? 2015-04-25T21:55:08Z Fare: if prove is lower-overhead, yet can be augmented when needed with whatever extra features 5am provides, then that's great 2015-04-25T21:55:51Z clog joined #lisp 2015-04-25T21:56:02Z sheilong quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-25T21:56:28Z Fare: OR, if there needs to be two completely different styled test systems, that's great too 2015-04-25T21:56:37Z Fare: but 50 of them is probably a bad sign. 2015-04-25T21:56:57Z Fare: most of them mutually indistinguishable 2015-04-25T21:59:14Z mood: Is there a library for portable DNS lookups? Usocket seems to have it, but doesn't export the functionality. 2015-04-25T21:59:18Z ferada quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T22:00:50Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-25T22:01:11Z fe[nl]ix: mood: iolib 2015-04-25T22:01:51Z mood: fe[nl]ix: iolib requires separate compilation, right? 2015-04-25T22:02:20Z fe[nl]ix: it requires an external C library 2015-04-25T22:04:40Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T22:05:14Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-04-25T22:07:29Z sunwukong` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-25T22:09:22Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T22:10:29Z mood: fe[nl]ix: Right. I'd like to avoid that if possible. 2015-04-25T22:11:10Z fe[nl]ix: why ? 2015-04-25T22:11:35Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T22:12:05Z mood: fe[nl]ix: I prefer a simple ql:quickload over having to compile something external. A matter of convenience really 2015-04-25T22:16:22Z Fare: is anyone here familiar with mlisp? clisp in "modern" mode? Are they case-preserving? 2015-04-25T22:17:16Z fe[nl]ix: mlisp preserves case, I think 2015-04-25T22:17:24Z axion: how do i tell quicklisp to look for a system in local-projects after the image has been started already? 2015-04-25T22:17:37Z axion: it's unable to find a newly installed system until i restart my image 2015-04-25T22:18:03Z mood: axion: (ql:register-local-projects) should work, I think 2015-04-25T22:18:37Z emaczen: minion: memo for jackdaniel: That is great news! However, I can't find those packages in the Fedora repositories. I've seen that you can pass the -m32 option to gcc and I'll look into passing that to ./configure.android 2015-04-25T22:18:38Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jackdaniel when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-04-25T22:18:45Z axion: mood: that didn't seem to work 2015-04-25T22:19:00Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-25T22:19:26Z f3lp quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-25T22:19:39Z Fare hesitates about adding exported symbols to uiop/package ... probably not worth the headache. 2015-04-25T22:19:50Z axion: scratch that. thank you 2015-04-25T22:19:54Z Fare: but maybe intern the symbols there, and export them from uiop/utility 2015-04-25T22:22:49Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2015-04-25T22:31:34Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-04-25T22:38:57Z bgs100 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-25T22:39:39Z logand`: mood fe[nl]ix: http://logand.com/git/cl-rw.git/ has portable dns stuff without any c thingy 2015-04-25T22:41:37Z Petit_Dejeuner_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T22:42:13Z logand`: it's not in quicklisp though (yet?) 2015-04-25T22:42:27Z khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 2015-04-25T22:43:31Z logand`: i haven't documented it yet 2015-04-25T22:43:35Z logand`: e.g. (rw.dns:query "_sip._udp.sip.voice.google.com" :type 'rw.dns::srv) 2015-04-25T22:43:59Z mood: logand`: I'll take a look, thanks 2015-04-25T22:44:27Z logand`: it should work on sbcl ccl ecl mkcl allegro 2015-04-25T22:50:26Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-04-25T22:51:55Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T22:51:59Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-25T22:53:25Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T22:54:07Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-04-25T23:03:57Z Xach: axion: register-local-projects worked? 2015-04-25T23:04:31Z axion: Xach: I'm not sure. I was originally trying to quickload the directory name rather than the actual system name 2015-04-25T23:04:42Z axion: It worked, but I'm not sure if that was a result of that 2015-04-25T23:05:41Z Xach: ah, ok 2015-04-25T23:05:46Z Xach: it is important to use the right name 2015-04-25T23:06:03Z Gasoline joined #lisp 2015-04-25T23:06:13Z axion: Yeah a lot of systems are packaged in a directory named cl-foo, and the actual system is foo 2015-04-25T23:06:17Z axion: Gets me all the time 2015-04-25T23:06:50Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-04-25T23:07:16Z Xach: yeah. it's a bummer. 2015-04-25T23:08:08Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-25T23:08:25Z axion: Xach: anyway, what does it take for quicklisp to get out of beta? I didn't make it to ELS 2015-04-25T23:08:50Z Pastaf joined #lisp 2015-04-25T23:10:49Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-25T23:11:53Z Xach: axion: documentation, adding missing features, making metadata easily accessible, and supporting discovery and public feedback 2015-04-25T23:12:09Z Xach: https://github.com/quicklisp/els-london-2015 has the slides & script of the talk 2015-04-25T23:12:26Z Xach: missing features being fetch control 2015-04-25T23:12:45Z axion: I see. One more QL question 2015-04-25T23:13:15Z axion: Is it possible to auto-clean the dists of old systems? I noticed my directory is several hundred MB from years of use :) 2015-04-25T23:14:07Z Xach: axion: that was not in the talk but is on my list 2015-04-25T23:14:29Z Xach: axion: you can do it manually with ql-dist::(map nil 'clean (all-dists)) 2015-04-25T23:14:58Z Xach: if you don't use a lisp with the foo::(form) syntax, you can prefix things with ql-dist: as needed 2015-04-25T23:15:07Z intinig_ joined #lisp 2015-04-25T23:15:12Z axion: Thanks. I'll have a read of the talk now 2015-04-25T23:16:47Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-25T23:17:07Z Vivitron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T23:18:04Z the_real_intinig quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-25T23:20:48Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-25T23:20:53Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-25T23:27:22Z Fare: Xach: are there any plans for https and/or pgp signing? 2015-04-25T23:27:56Z Fare: in Quicklisp 2015-04-25T23:28:08Z Fare: bad old asdf-install did handle pgp signing 2015-04-25T23:29:49Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-04-25T23:30:32Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T23:31:33Z tank9 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T23:32:47Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-25T23:34:42Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-04-25T23:34:43Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-25T23:40:18Z Xach: Yes and yes 2015-04-25T23:46:21Z arrdem joined #lisp 2015-04-25T23:46:42Z arrdem quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-25T23:48:01Z Xach was happy to expand the web of trust at ELS 2015-04-25T23:49:09Z Gasoline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-25T23:53:35Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T23:54:18Z arrdem joined #lisp 2015-04-25T23:54:41Z arrdem quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-25T23:54:49Z arrdem joined #lisp 2015-04-25T23:55:49Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-25T23:56:04Z arrdem quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-25T23:56:11Z arrdem joined #lisp 2015-04-26T00:02:49Z axion: is there a portable way to delete a single file on the filesystem? cl-fad looked promising but seems to only have a function to remove a directory recursively 2015-04-26T00:03:33Z Xach: axion: delete-file is a standard function. 2015-04-26T00:03:59Z axion: great. is there a function to remove all files within a directory, but not the directory itself? 2015-04-26T00:04:36Z Xach: axion: not standard. it involves implementation-specific behavior. 2015-04-26T00:04:44Z axion: i see. thanks 2015-04-26T00:06:47Z C6248 joined #lisp 2015-04-26T00:07:11Z failproofshark: axion: you could 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2015-04-26T03:26:26Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-26T03:26:32Z jlongster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-26T03:27:49Z beach: One of the advantages that Baker claims of his version of SUBTYPEP is that it avoids potentially costly (exponential) blowup of canonicalizing the type descriptor. 2015-04-26T03:27:56Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-26T03:28:04Z beach: I wonder how big a problem that is in reality. 2015-04-26T03:28:41Z beach: Especially since he must do something similar for all the interval descriptors (integers, rationals, and all the floats). 2015-04-26T03:28:48Z axion: hello beach 2015-04-26T03:31:15Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-26T03:32:17Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-26T03:32:30Z beach: ... And then, I wonder what happens to those type descriptors in the type inferencer. It might be faster to canonicalize if a lot of operations such as AND and AND NOT will be necessary. 2015-04-26T03:38:56Z beach: It would, of course, help to know the typical shape of a type descriptor that generates exponential blowup when canonicalized. 2015-04-26T03:40:18Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-04-26T03:42:07Z NaNDude quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-26T03:42:10Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-26T03:43:46Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-26T03:46:27Z BlackMaster joined #lisp 2015-04-26T03:46:29Z beach: Perhaps it is possible to write both SUBTYPEP and the type inferences so that they will work whether the type descriptor is canonicalized or not. That would avoid the entire problem. 2015-04-26T03:46:37Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-26T03:46:49Z NaNDude joined #lisp 2015-04-26T03:48:38Z BlackMaster left #lisp 2015-04-26T03:50:26Z badkins quit 2015-04-26T03:50:40Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-26T03:54:54Z oslvbo joined #lisp 2015-04-26T03:58:10Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-04-26T04:00:12Z pjb: jackdaniel: ecl is GPL therefore you can use readline without any problem. 2015-04-26T04:01:27Z pjb: It's LGPL actually. 2015-04-26T04:02:57Z jlongster quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-26T04:03:30Z pjb: Fare: you should not confuse mlist with clisp. mlisp is Allegro CL, with modern mode, which is "global". On the other hand, in clisp you can declare case preserving on a per-package base. 2015-04-26T04:03:55Z pjb: Fare: http://www.clisp.org/impnotes/package-case.html 2015-04-26T04:05:14Z pjb: Therefore you can write: (LINUX:|PUTC| LINUX:|o_excl|) or (LINUX:PUTC LINUX:o_excl) ; they will read the same. 2015-04-26T04:07:34Z pjb: Err, my examples are bad. 2015-04-26T04:07:41Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-26T04:09:11Z pjb: the case of exported name is inverted, so you can read (LINUX:putc LINUX:O_EXCL) or (LINUX:|putc| LINUX:|O_EXCL|) but not (LINUX:PUTC linux:o_excl). 2015-04-26T04:14:13Z oslvbo_ joined #lisp 2015-04-26T04:14:59Z Guest63449 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-26T04:15:33Z oslvbo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-26T04:20:09Z Quadrescence: LiNuX:PuTc is my preference 2015-04-26T04:25:22Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-04-26T04:28:01Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-26T04:31:08Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-26T04:31:41Z yrdz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-26T04:31:52Z Kanae joined #lisp 2015-04-26T04:32:17Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-26T04:32:21Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-04-26T04:34:47Z emaczen: Why is there no "mapcar" method combination? I think I want to make one with 'define-method-combination but I read that you should rarely ever have to define your own and wanted to seek some advice. 2015-04-26T04:36:58Z Quadrescence: Seems like a pretty specific thing to want, really. 2015-04-26T04:37:39Z Quadrescence: The existing method combinations are solutions to existing sort of obvious problems, I guess. And a MAPCAR style method combination doesn't solve some problem that the creators immediately thought existed. 2015-04-26T04:37:41Z emaczen: "append" is a method combination, why is that any different? 2015-04-26T04:38:40Z Quadrescence: It's not that it's different, it's that it solved some problem that existed, probably. Namely that the results of a method call should be the concatenation of each applicable method. 2015-04-26T04:39:07Z Quadrescence: MAPCAR introduces something static (I presume) across each method call, which is a little bit out of the style of method combinations 2015-04-26T04:39:12Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-26T04:39:51Z emaczen: What exactly do you mean by static? 2015-04-26T04:40:11Z Quadrescence: well, you're presumably applying some function to each method result 2015-04-26T04:40:21Z Quadrescence: and it is probably the same function for each method result 2015-04-26T04:41:37Z emaczen: Wait I don't think a "mapcar" method-combination is what I'm actually looking for. I'm going to try to describe my problem. 2015-04-26T04:41:48Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-26T04:43:20Z emaczen: Actually I think if I use mapc instead of mapcar than I can use a before method to change what I want and the primary method will do the rest. 2015-04-26T04:43:21Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-04-26T04:43:37Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-26T04:44:09Z emaczen: Thanks for getting me to think aloud Quadescence. 2015-04-26T04:44:27Z Quadrescence: ;) 2015-04-26T04:54:25Z Saigut joined #lisp 2015-04-26T04:54:33Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-26T04:55:47Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-04-26T04:57:20Z beach: Hmm. So SUBTYPEP definitely needs to answer questions about sub-classes of STANDARD-OBJECT, but that feature may turn out to be useless in the type inferencer, since an instance of STANDARD-OBJECT may have its type changed at any time. 2015-04-26T04:58:51Z jeffdc quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-26T05:00:41Z Pastaf joined #lisp 2015-04-26T05:01:42Z yrdz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-26T05:09:50Z Saigut_ joined #lisp 2015-04-26T05:11:04Z Saigut quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-26T05:13:44Z pjb: subtypep is usually called at run-time. 2015-04-26T05:13:59Z pjb: typecase performs run-time dispatching. 2015-04-26T05:14:28Z beach: Right. 2015-04-26T05:15:17Z beach: But Baker's type inferencer uses his SUBTYPEP. Or so he says. 2015-04-26T05:17:05Z pjb: Unless you've been able to prove by global analysis that the class of a CLOS instance won't change at run-time, I don't see that you can avoid assuming that its type is other than T. 2015-04-26T05:17:14Z pjb: for type inferencing purposes. 2015-04-26T05:17:28Z beach: You can assume STANDARD-OBJECT which is a little bit better. 2015-04-26T05:19:06Z pjb: I don't know where you will apply type inferencing, but a thought occurs: two kinds of things can be "typed": places and values. 2015-04-26T05:20:41Z beach: It comes out to the same. It is a pair of . In SSA they are basically just places. 2015-04-26T05:21:53Z pjb: And also, if you assume multi-threading, then the class of an instance can change from one instruction to another. 2015-04-26T05:22:19Z beach: Of an instance of STANDARD-OBJECT, yes. 2015-04-26T05:22:37Z beach: Which is why any more precise type information about it is useless. 2015-04-26T05:22:54Z pjb: Yes. So you cannot assume anything more precise than standard-object, without a global analysis of a final application. 2015-04-26T05:23:18Z beach: Right, and I am not going to attempt that at the moment. 2015-04-26T05:24:22Z beach: And this is why I started by saying that the precise result of Baker's SUBTYPEP might be overkill in the type inferencer. 2015-04-26T05:26:02Z beach: ... and while canonicalization might be too costly at runtime (i.e., in SUBTYPEP), it is probably the best solution in the type inferencer. 2015-04-26T05:26:43Z beach vanishes for half an hour or so in order to contemplate. 2015-04-26T05:28:56Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-26T05:29:49Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-04-26T05:30:56Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-04-26T05:33:11Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-26T05:34:15Z mj-0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-26T05:35:40Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-26T05:48:06Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-04-26T05:48:55Z protist joined #lisp 2015-04-26T05:51:23Z beach: Here is another idea: Let's say that in HIR we detect a loop that has a loop counter in it, but there is no known compile-time bound on the number of iterations. We can split the loop into two loops. One with a number of iterations that is bounded by a FIXNUM and one with a number of iterations that is either unknown or must be tested at run-time. Now we should be able to use mostly FIXNUM arithmetic in the bounded loop. 2015-04-26T05:52:18Z beach: On a 64-bit machine, the bounded loop will basically never finish, so the unbounded one needs no optimization. 2015-04-26T05:54:24Z beach: The type inferencer will work on the bounded loop and turn loop counters into FIXNUMs or machine integers. 2015-04-26T05:56:51Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-26T05:57:21Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-26T05:57:21Z sunwukong` joined #lisp 2015-04-26T05:59:02Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-26T06:00:30Z intinig_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-26T06:01:10Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-26T06:02:55Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-26T06:03:12Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-26T06:03:54Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-26T06:03:54Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-04-26T06:03:54Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-26T06:03:55Z guicho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-26T06:04:14Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-04-26T06:06:01Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-26T06:06:40Z kvsari joined #lisp 2015-04-26T06:07:45Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-26T06:12:55Z salva joined #lisp 2015-04-26T06:19:35Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-26T06:19:35Z guicho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-26T06:20:16Z PinealGl1ndOptic quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-26T06:25:43Z alchemis7 joined #lisp 2015-04-26T06:38:12Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2015-04-26T06:42:09Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-26T06:43:21Z echo-are` joined #lisp 2015-04-26T06:44:27Z Shinmera: axion: There's UIOP:DELETE-DIRECTORY-TREE. 2015-04-26T06:44:37Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2015-04-26T06:45:56Z echo-area quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-26T06:46:08Z echo-are` is now known as echo-area 2015-04-26T06:46:53Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-26T06:50:09Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-26T06:50:13Z kcj quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-26T06:54:57Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-04-26T06:56:52Z shka joined #lisp 2015-04-26T06:57:01Z shka: i found TAGS files in git repo 2015-04-26T06:57:06Z shka: this dosen't sound right 2015-04-26T06:58:06Z beach: shka: Using camelcase with Emacs is not a good idea. 2015-04-26T06:58:29Z shka: why so? 2015-04-26T06:58:36Z beach: You deprive yourself of the difference between on the one hand M-f, M-b and on the other hand C-M-f, C-M-b. 2015-04-26T07:00:55Z shka: ok, that's weird 2015-04-26T07:01:01Z shka: i never noticed that 2015-04-26T07:01:12Z shka: i mostly use evil mode, though 2015-04-26T07:02:14Z beach: I am betting you screw up the spell checker as well with camelcase. 2015-04-26T07:03:18Z shka: that's fine, i'm ok with foo_bar as well 2015-04-26T07:03:25Z shka: just not both things at the same time 2015-04-26T07:03:30Z beach: Right. 2015-04-26T07:03:37Z beach: Check with drmeister though. 2015-04-26T07:03:40Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-04-26T07:03:44Z shka: i will 2015-04-26T07:03:56Z shka: but we plan to automate the process 2015-04-26T07:03:58Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-26T07:04:07Z beach: That's a very good idea. 2015-04-26T07:04:28Z shka: i'm trying to find that test.lsp that drmeister mentioned yesterday 2015-04-26T07:08:17Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-26T07:11:18Z intinig quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-26T07:13:56Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-26T07:15:13Z intinig quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-26T07:17:52Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-26T07:18:08Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-04-26T07:18:52Z oleo is now known as Guest49889 2015-04-26T07:20:19Z Guest49889 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-26T07:20:36Z Kanae quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-26T07:20:44Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-26T07:23:13Z Saigut joined #lisp 2015-04-26T07:23:23Z Saigut quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-26T07:23:40Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-04-26T07:25:23Z Saigut_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-26T07:27:32Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-04-26T07:28:40Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-04-26T07:29:39Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-26T07:33:48Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2015-04-26T07:37:29Z Pastaf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-26T07:41:48Z jackdaniel: pjb: it's lgpl, gpl would be nonsense for it imo, since it's designed to be embedded in other applications and it would impose license for this usecases 2015-04-26T07:41:49Z minion: jackdaniel, memo from emaczen: That is great news! However, I can't find those packages in the Fedora repositories. I've seen that you can pass the -m32 option to gcc and I'll look into passing that to ./configure.android 2015-04-26T07:43:20Z pjb: jackdaniel: nonetheless, given lgpl it should be more logical to use readline. 2015-04-26T07:43:41Z jackdaniel: pjb: readline is gplv3, not lgpl 2015-04-26T07:43:53Z pjb: nonetheless, given lgpl it should be more logical to use readline. 2015-04-26T07:44:13Z jackdaniel: thereof it would impose gplv3 on ecl 2015-04-26T07:44:23Z jackdaniel: it was a case of clisp afair 2015-04-26T07:44:49Z pjb: Not necessarily. You could split ecl in two parts: libecl.so (lgpl), and ecl (gpl3). 2015-04-26T07:45:05Z jackdaniel: that'd make sense, thanks for suggestion 2015-04-26T07:45:59Z pjb: Also, I think there's a visibility proble for libecl.so, not enough people realize that ecl comes as a library. "Splitting" the project would highlight it, even if ecl only contains main(). 2015-04-26T07:46:04Z pjb: and a Makefile. 2015-04-26T07:46:29Z jackdaniel: and a Makefile? 2015-04-26T07:46:38Z pjb: Yes, to compile and link :-) 2015-04-26T07:47:00Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for emaczen: I'm affraid you still need 32-bit libraries on your system. When we'll move android support to develop branch, I'll try to clarify it on wiki 2015-04-26T07:47:00Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell emaczen when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-04-26T07:47:38Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-26T07:48:02Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-04-26T07:50:31Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-26T07:51:16Z wglb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-26T07:54:52Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-26T07:55:33Z munksgaa1d joined #lisp 2015-04-26T07:55:58Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-26T07:58:56Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-26T08:00:21Z x1n4u joined #lisp 2015-04-26T08:01:04Z oslvbo_ quit 2015-04-26T08:01:15Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-26T08:04:05Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-26T08:08:30Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-26T08:16:34Z devll joined #lisp 2015-04-26T08:17:34Z devll quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-26T08:19:40Z jrm2 joined #lisp 2015-04-26T08:19:48Z jrm quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-26T08:25:57Z jrm2 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-26T08:26:23Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-04-26T08:26:23Z jrm quit (Changing host) 2015-04-26T08:26:23Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-04-26T08:28:47Z gniourf_gniourf quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-04-26T08:36:45Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-04-26T08:45:51Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-26T08:47:30Z setheus joined #lisp 2015-04-26T08:51:46Z ferada joined #lisp 2015-04-26T08:55:54Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-26T08:57:23Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-04-26T08:58:44Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-26T09:00:41Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-04-26T09:00:44Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-04-26T09:01:41Z d4ryus___ joined #lisp 2015-04-26T09:03:26Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-26T09:04:53Z d4ryus_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-26T09:07:33Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-26T09:11:16Z Ralt joined #lisp 2015-04-26T09:11:49Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-04-26T09:12:16Z Ralt: hello 2015-04-26T09:12:26Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-04-26T09:12:41Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-26T09:13:17Z Ralt: is there a way to declare a new type? I can't seem to find it. i.e. (declare foo (or vector integer)) or something like that 2015-04-26T09:14:00Z hitecnologys: clhs deftype 2015-04-26T09:14:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_deftp.htm 2015-04-26T09:14:06Z Ralt: thanks! 2015-04-26T09:15:07Z mateuszb quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Here, MS-Windows is 0% market share. (over the ten computers I own). 2015-04-26T10:29:46Z kami: p_l: it's getting really off-topic but, I was just looking at this: http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0 2015-04-26T10:29:53Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-26T10:30:12Z Ven quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-26T10:30:23Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-26T10:31:07Z pjb: Also, perhaps you should distinguish markets. Amongst human, Linux and MacOSX have a bigger market share. Amongst corporations and their slaves, perhaps MS-Windows has a bigger market share. But who cares what happens on Beltelgeuse?! 2015-04-26T10:33:50Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-04-26T10:34:16Z faser-pyon-del is now known as faserbuendel 2015-04-26T10:40:57Z k-stz: would be interesting what the os "market share" for programmers is, also Betelgeuse could have already blown-up for all we care ;) 2015-04-26T10:40:58Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-26T10:41:29Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-26T10:41:50Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-26T10:42:01Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-26T10:44:07Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-04-26T10:44:34Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-26T10:45:22Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-26T10:49:57Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-26T10:52:08Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-04-26T10:52:51Z zygentoma is now known as zygentoma^bonn 2015-04-26T10:58:29Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-04-26T11:00:39Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-26T11:04:38Z leberecht joined #lisp 2015-04-26T11:06:55Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-26T11:08:39Z posterdati300 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-26T11:09:12Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I was not aware of that. 2015-04-26T13:59:20Z nyef: Once the libraries are loaded it should be more-or-less okay. 2015-04-26T13:59:47Z wyan: no luck, sadly... http://paste.lisp.org/display/147521 2015-04-26T14:01:08Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-26T14:01:10Z moog quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-26T14:01:42Z Shinmera: You can try privmsg-ing stassats about this, he might know what's going on. 2015-04-26T14:01:53Z beach: drmeister: Thanks! 2015-04-26T14:02:15Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-04-26T14:02:15Z beach: drmeister: And good morning to you. :) 2015-04-26T14:03:29Z wyan: Shinmera: thanks, I'll see if he's available 2015-04-26T14:03:32Z beach: drmeister: In fact, some loops might need 3 "stages". A first stage when the loop variables are less than the most negative fixnum, a second stage when they are fixnums, and a third stage when they are greater than the most positive fixnum. 2015-04-26T14:04:46Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-04-26T14:05:07Z nyef: ... and drmeister. 2015-04-26T14:05:54Z beach: Hey nyef. Taking the day off? 2015-04-26T14:06:11Z shka_ joined #lisp 2015-04-26T14:07:49Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-26T14:08:03Z beach: Actually, I am wiped out from entertaining guests for the past 5 hours, so I am going to lie down and rest a bit. I'll be back later. 2015-04-26T14:08:26Z nyef: Actually, I'm working somewhat today. 2015-04-26T14:08:44Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2015-04-26T14:10:10Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-26T14:11:04Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-26T14:11:53Z zygentoma^bonn quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-04-26T14:15:10Z drmeister: Hey guys 2015-04-26T14:15:22Z alpha-: hi 2015-04-26T14:17:18Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-26T14:18:33Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-04-26T14:18:54Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-26T14:20:04Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-26T14:21:44Z wyan: no luck... 2015-04-26T14:22:26Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-04-26T14:28:25Z pjb: beach: (loop repeat n do (something)) doesn't require an explicit counter. it can easily expand to (loop repeat (truncate n most-positive-fixnum) do (loop repeat most-positive-fixnum do (something)) finally (loop repeat (- n (truncate n most-positive-fixnum)) do (something))). 2015-04-26T14:29:27Z `eeks joined #lisp 2015-04-26T14:29:39Z pjb: beach: for loops needing an explicit counter, it may still be more efficient to compute (+ rounded-bignum fixnum-counter) each loop iteration (notably, if instead of fixnum, you use uint32, and if you can _mutate_ a bignum. 2015-04-26T14:30:29Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-26T14:30:39Z `eeks quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-26T14:30:48Z shka_ joined #lisp 2015-04-26T14:40:24Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-26T14:41:43Z ggole: Don't you then you have the same problem again for the finally (loop ...)? 2015-04-26T14:44:07Z pjb: ggole: the remaining counter is a fixnum. 2015-04-26T14:44:09Z intinig quit 2015-04-26T14:44:14Z pjb: (or counter increment). 2015-04-26T14:44:59Z ggole: (- n ) isn't bounded in the general case? 2015-04-26T14:45:21Z pjb: But after (truncate n bounded-number) it is. 2015-04-26T14:45:30Z pjb: Basic euclidian division! 2015-04-26T14:45:35Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-26T14:45:41Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-26T14:45:59Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-26T14:46:04Z _1_sidhu2 joined #lisp 2015-04-26T14:46:19Z _1_sidhu2: hello 2015-04-26T14:46:45Z _1_sidhu2 quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-26T14:46:53Z nyef: Mutating a bignum seems like a bad idea unless you have an escape analysis. 2015-04-26T14:47:10Z pjb: We're talking about an implementer trick, so yes. 2015-04-26T14:47:20Z kvsari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-26T14:47:55Z ggole: pjb: I have no idea what you're talking about 2015-04-26T14:49:41Z pjb: ggole: n=q*d+r 2015-04-26T14:49:52Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-26T14:49:53Z fxh joined #lisp 2015-04-26T14:49:56Z ggole: n is never modified 2015-04-26T14:50:16Z ggole: You have (- n ). There is no bound on n, so there is no bound on this subtraction. 2015-04-26T14:50:34Z pjb: therefore instead of writing (loop repeat n) you write (loop repeat d do (loop repeat q) finally (loop repeat r)). 2015-04-26T14:51:31Z pjb: so the inner loops are on fixnums. 2015-04-26T14:51:57Z pjb: If you're unhappy about d, you can recurse. 2015-04-26T14:53:48Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-26T14:53:52Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-26T14:55:19Z ggole: Oh I see, you wrote it wrong 2015-04-26T14:55:21Z alecigne joined #lisp 2015-04-26T14:55:26Z alecigne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-26T14:55:47Z yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-04-26T14:55:52Z ggole: It's the second return value of truncate, which *is* bounded, and not (- n (truncate n K)) 2015-04-26T14:56:15Z alecigne joined #lisp 2015-04-26T14:57:21Z pjb: (truncate n K) is d. If you have a problem with it, recurse. 2015-04-26T14:57:52Z pjb: But decrementing a bignum once every 4 billion times, shouldn't be a big problem. 2015-04-26T14:58:26Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-04-26T14:58:29Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-26T15:01:41Z ggole: pjb: right, and (- n d) is the wrong thing there 2015-04-26T15:02:14Z ggole: The idea is fine, but I was looking at the code 2015-04-26T15:03:34Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-26T15:03:50Z Ethan- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-26T15:04:23Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-26T15:08:51Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-04-26T15:09:13Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2015-04-26T15:09:43Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-26T15:12:50Z oleo_ is now known as oleo 2015-04-26T15:13:20Z oleo is now known as Guest44490 2015-04-26T15:13:44Z Guest44490 quit (Changing host) 2015-04-26T15:13:45Z Guest44490 joined #lisp 2015-04-26T15:13:45Z pjb: ggole: yes, a (* d was missing. 2015-04-26T15:13:59Z Guest44490 is now known as oleo 2015-04-26T15:14:35Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-26T15:15:35Z phax joined #lisp 2015-04-26T15:17:13Z hjs joined #lisp 2015-04-26T15:20:32Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-26T15:22:00Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-26T15:22:07Z joast quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-26T15:28:26Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-26T15:28:49Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-26T15:29:24Z jeffdc joined #lisp 2015-04-26T15:30:12Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-26T15:32:31Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2015-04-26T15:34:04Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-26T15:34:54Z p_l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-26T15:36:08Z Denommus quit (Quit: Bye) 2015-04-26T15:36:11Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-26T15:36:22Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-04-26T15:37:01Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-26T15:38:13Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-26T15:38:33Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-26T15:39:40Z beach: pjb: Yes, I understand the idea. 2015-04-26T15:40:44Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-26T15:42:41Z Xach joined #lisp 2015-04-26T15:43:52Z failproofshark: hello 2015-04-26T15:45:13Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-26T15:45:23Z joast joined #lisp 2015-04-26T15:46:07Z beach: Hello failproofshark. 2015-04-26T15:48:17Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2015-04-26T18:10:13Z protist: I have a friend who would like to start 2015-04-26T18:10:18Z protist: I'm on Linux, so I have no idea 2015-04-26T18:10:50Z dim: CCL or maybe non-open-source options, Lispworks or Allegro 2015-04-26T18:11:02Z dim: SBCL these days works fine on windows, tho 2015-04-26T18:11:06Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-26T18:11:13Z dim: protist: is your friend already an Emacs user? 2015-04-26T18:11:23Z protist: dim: is SBCL easy to get up and running on Windows? 2015-04-26T18:11:33Z protist: dim: no my friend is completely new to programming 2015-04-26T18:11:35Z dim: last I tried it was, indeed 2015-04-26T18:11:57Z failproofshark: protist: yeah, just grab the binary from the site 2015-04-26T18:12:12Z protist: failproofshark: I mean easy as in easy for our mothers :p 2015-04-26T18:12:16Z dim: then your friend my find it easier to use an all integrated environment, check out Lispworks 2015-04-26T18:12:19Z protist: failproofshark: he is new to programming in general 2015-04-26T18:12:45Z failproofshark: protist: well, i mean you just download the sbcl binary from the site and run it 2015-04-26T18:12:47Z failproofshark: not much too it 2015-04-26T18:12:47Z protist: dim: does Allegro have an IDE as well?...I've heard some good things about Allegro 2015-04-26T18:13:05Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-26T18:13:07Z failproofshark: getting emacs running correctly isnt too hard if you can guide them 2015-04-26T18:13:33Z protist: failproofshark: I'm a vim user *blushes* 2015-04-26T18:13:35Z failproofshark: iirc when i set it up at my old job i had to set one environment variable to set where the emacs home is 2015-04-26T18:13:48Z failproofshark: well theres slimv i guess 2015-04-26T18:13:52Z failproofshark: havent used it myself though 2015-04-26T18:14:32Z dim: protist: I guess Allegro would do too yeah 2015-04-26T18:14:32Z protist: will probably go with an IDE option...if he is interested enough then he can go on towards more direct tools 2015-04-26T18:14:48Z protist: dim: thank you :) 2015-04-26T18:15:11Z failproofshark: lisp in abox is still available. just not updated it hink 2015-04-26T18:15:27Z failproofshark: https://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/ 2015-04-26T18:15:51Z failproofshark: oh i guess its lispbox now 2015-04-26T18:16:20Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-26T18:16:49Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-04-26T18:16:55Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-26T18:20:04Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-04-26T18:20:18Z someone quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-04-26T18:20:36Z someon joined #lisp 2015-04-26T18:23:31Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-26T18:27:00Z francogrex left #lisp 2015-04-26T18:28:34Z xmj joined #lisp 2015-04-26T18:28:38Z xmj: morning! 2015-04-26T18:29:22Z xmj: I'm wondering: is there a (nice, popular) implementation of topological sorting of Directed Acyclical Graphs in Lisp that someone could point me to? 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I was mislead by the articles by Baker because 1. His SUBTYPEP doesn't need cononical type specifiers (which is good) and 2. His Nimble type inferences uses SUBTYPEP. 2015-04-27T03:26:24Z Saigut joined #lisp 2015-04-27T03:26:47Z SAL9000: beach: what do you mean by canonical type specifiers? 2015-04-27T03:27:47Z beach: There are many choices, as long as each type has only one canonical representation. 2015-04-27T03:28:57Z Saigut_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T03:29:03Z beach: I am thinking either NIL or T, or (OR ....). 2015-04-27T03:29:20Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-27T03:29:44Z beach: With some specified details of the (OR ...) such as the intervals that Baker suggests. 2015-04-27T03:30:36Z Saigut quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-27T03:32:10Z beach: SAL9000: Do you know about canonical representations in general? 2015-04-27T03:34:12Z beach: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_form 2015-04-27T03:37:11Z yuuhi quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.0.50.1)) 2015-04-27T03:40:33Z beach: Anyway, I think it is good to avoid costly canonicalization in the run-time version of SUBTYPEP as Baker suggests. I also think this is not an issue in the version of SUBTYPEP (and similar operations) used in the type inferencer. On the contrary, in the type inferencer, there will be a large number of such operations at compile time, so it is probably less costly to canonicalize. 2015-04-27T03:42:51Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-27T03:44:34Z pillton: Well, I would use a canonical representation initially. Purely so you can dedicate more of your brain to the problem rather than representation. 2015-04-27T03:44:59Z beach: "initially"? 2015-04-27T03:45:14Z nyef: Mmm. SBCL has some sort of canonicalized type representation that it uses. 2015-04-27T03:45:32Z beach: That's a good sign. 2015-04-27T03:45:32Z pillton: Isn't this your first attempt at writing a type inferencer? 2015-04-27T03:45:43Z beach: pillton: Oh, I see. Yes, indeed. 2015-04-27T03:45:49Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-04-27T03:46:29Z Saigut_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-27T03:46:32Z nyef: SBCL's implementation has a couple of interesting aspects. One is that the union of all of the specialized array types is not type-equivalent to ARRAY (a known bug, since the set of specialized array types is supposed to be an exhaustive partition). 2015-04-27T03:47:05Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-04-27T03:47:22Z nyef: Another is that the array types can represent a SATISFIES term that has something to do with either adjustability or a fill pointer, I forget which. 2015-04-27T03:48:02Z beach: OK. 2015-04-27T03:48:02Z nyef: There are probably other quirks as well. 2015-04-27T03:48:32Z beach: It's a difficult problem. 2015-04-27T03:48:39Z nyef: Yes. Yes, it is. 2015-04-27T03:49:45Z nyef: Every so often we run into a bug in the type system that was there all along, but with improved compiler smarts it actually starts breaking things. 2015-04-27T03:49:56Z nyef: Array type unification was one of those. 2015-04-27T03:50:10Z nyef: ... Or was it intersection? Might have been both. 2015-04-27T03:50:24Z nyef: Caused hilariously mis-compiled code when it happened, though. 2015-04-27T03:50:44Z beach: I can see that. 2015-04-27T03:51:25Z bringthenoise quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-27T03:51:36Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-27T03:52:38Z kushal quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-27T03:52:53Z Saigut joined #lisp 2015-04-27T03:53:46Z GGMethos quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T03:54:02Z Guest35172 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T03:55:10Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T03:56:21Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T03:56:41Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-04-27T03:57:19Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T03:59:44Z wemeetagain joined #lisp 2015-04-27T04:01:41Z juiko joined #lisp 2015-04-27T04:03:33Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T04:04:09Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-27T04:08:17Z GGMethos joined #lisp 2015-04-27T04:08:47Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T04:18:08Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-27T04:18:18Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-04-27T04:18:34Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T04:18:55Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-04-27T04:19:19Z Saigut quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-27T04:20:47Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-27T04:21:14Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-04-27T04:22:41Z juiko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T04:24:08Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-04-27T04:24:51Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T04:24:52Z juiko joined #lisp 2015-04-27T04:25:33Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-04-27T04:28:32Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-04-27T04:30:45Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T04:34:48Z smokeink: when i try to run my app on the server, clsql fails to load: The alien function "clsql_mysql_field_flags" is undefined [Condition of type SB-KERNEL::UNDEFINED-ALIEN-FUNCTION-ERROR] , how to fix it ? 2015-04-27T04:35:11Z smokeink: the server runs ubuntu. on my local archlinux machine it loads fine 2015-04-27T04:36:52Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-27T04:37:53Z voidpointer joined #lisp 2015-04-27T04:39:03Z beach: Is it really necessary to canonicalize the union of all specialized array types to ARRAY? I am thinking if I don't do that, then the implementation can generate whatever specialized array types it finds useful. And the implementation could define the type ARRAY with DEFTYPE to be the union of all specialized array types. 2015-04-27T04:39:40Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T04:41:51Z voidpointer is now known as drocha 2015-04-27T04:42:25Z Brozo quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-04-27T04:46:35Z drocha is now known as klaaas 2015-04-27T04:48:55Z klaaas is now known as drocha 2015-04-27T04:49:21Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2015-04-27T04:49:43Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-04-27T04:56:17Z Denommus quit (Quit: going to sleep) 2015-04-27T04:56:53Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-27T04:58:55Z juiko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T04:59:22Z PuercoPop: smokeink: it seems you don't have the required (C) libraries for mysql on your server 2015-04-27T04:59:37Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T04:59:39Z selat quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T04:59:47Z PuercoPop: normally ubuntu doesn't install headers so you have to install the -dev version of the package 2015-04-27T05:00:00Z Anarch_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:00:13Z PuercoPop: (was a common gotcha coming from gentoo to ubuntu in my case) 2015-04-27T05:02:42Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:02:57Z __main__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-27T05:03:21Z Guest35172 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T05:03:26Z _main_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:05:53Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:07:37Z _main_ is now known as __main__ 2015-04-27T05:09:18Z jeffdc left #lisp 2015-04-27T05:11:11Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-04-27T05:13:23Z drocha quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-27T05:15:02Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:15:11Z drmeister: Hello 2015-04-27T05:15:26Z jasom_: howdy 2015-04-27T05:15:32Z beach: Hello drmeister. 2015-04-27T05:16:00Z xmj left #lisp 2015-04-27T05:17:32Z fluter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T05:21:25Z drmeister: I'm just reading up on canonical form. 2015-04-27T05:21:45Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T05:21:45Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T05:22:02Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:22:07Z beach: It's a very general concept. 2015-04-27T05:23:38Z drmeister: I'd like to be able to define specialized array types. 2015-04-27T05:23:56Z drmeister: I've got an idea of how to generate them on the fly. 2015-04-27T05:24:05Z beach: Sure, but that doesn't mean you have to worry about canonical type specifiers. 2015-04-27T05:24:58Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:25:15Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:25:23Z __main__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-27T05:25:25Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:26:23Z __main__ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:26:25Z beach: You generate new array types on the fly? 2015-04-27T05:26:36Z drmeister: Doesn't this: "Is it really necessary to canonicalize the union of all specialized array types to ARRAY?" mean that the specialized array types would have to be limited and defined by the implementation at startup? 2015-04-27T05:27:29Z drmeister: beach: I could. By defining C++ structs and generating array types and accessors for them at runtime. 2015-04-27T05:28:30Z beach: drmeister: There are only so many specialized array types that are useful. 2015-04-27T05:28:38Z beach: drmeister: It has to do with representation. 2015-04-27T05:29:04Z beach: For it to be useful, a specialized array type must store the elements differently from the others. 2015-04-27T05:29:13Z drmeister: Ok. 2015-04-27T05:29:54Z beach: And it has to be known at compile time, or else you can't generate code to access elements. 2015-04-27T05:30:28Z beach: Unless you change your implementation of AREF every time you generate a new array, and you don't specialize array access. 2015-04-27T05:30:45Z beach: "generate a new array TYPE" 2015-04-27T05:31:09Z drmeister: Can I define a 3d vector struct {double x; double y; double z;} and then create a specialized array on that at runtime? 2015-04-27T05:32:06Z beach: If it is a Common Lisp array and it contains a structure, then it must contain a pointer, so its upgraded element type must be T. 2015-04-27T05:34:43Z drmeister: I was thinking of using a C++ struct and passing it to the Clang C++ compiler to generate the accessors to get a compact array of 3D vectors. 2015-04-27T05:35:06Z beach: And what would (aref *a* 0 0 0) return then? 2015-04-27T05:35:13Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-27T05:35:28Z c74d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-27T05:36:19Z drmeister: I was thinking more like (aref *a* 0) --> #(x y z) and (setf (aref *a* 0) #(1.0 2.0 3.0)) 2015-04-27T05:36:26Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:36:30Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:36:34Z drmeister: Or is this a terrible idea? 2015-04-27T05:36:50Z beach: So (eql (aref *a* 0) (aref *a* 0)) would be NIL? 2015-04-27T05:36:51Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T05:37:25Z drmeister: Good point - yes, it would be nil. 2015-04-27T05:37:52Z beach: I don't know whether that would be conforming behavior. 2015-04-27T05:38:05Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:38:39Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:38:50Z drmeister: I have not thought about that aspect of it. 2015-04-27T05:39:01Z Anarch_ quit (Quit: WILL TROLL FOR FOOD) 2015-04-27T05:39:11Z leberecht joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:39:31Z drmeister: What if I don't use aref? 2015-04-27T05:39:38Z beach: I need to check, but it might have to be something other than an array. 2015-04-27T05:39:58Z beach: ... which is the same as not using AREF, I guess. 2015-04-27T05:40:24Z drmeister: Call it a "carray". 2015-04-27T05:40:26Z beach: By "something other than an array", I mean (typep *a* 'array) => false. 2015-04-27T05:40:52Z beach: Then you can do what you want of course. 2015-04-27T05:40:53Z drmeister: I think I could live with that. 2015-04-27T05:41:21Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:41:32Z beach: But for type inference to be able to deal with it, it has to be known when the type inferencer is run. 2015-04-27T05:41:53Z drmeister: I wanted to do this to provide low level access to compact arrays of structs in C++ 2015-04-27T05:42:06Z beach: Unless you recompile code when you add new carray types. 2015-04-27T05:42:09Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T05:43:28Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T05:43:51Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-27T05:43:55Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:44:16Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T05:44:26Z beach: What I mean is that you can't have your cake and eat it. If you want compile-time optimizations, you have to make sure it is know what to do at compile time. 2015-04-27T05:45:59Z drmeister: I think I understand. 2015-04-27T05:46:03Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:46:49Z sunwukong` joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:47:07Z drmeister: Would the type inference work if it didn't know the type of a variable? 2015-04-27T05:47:20Z Brozo quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-04-27T05:47:33Z oleo: no 2015-04-27T05:47:37Z oleo: it would lift it..... 2015-04-27T05:47:53Z oleo: when possible.... 2015-04-27T05:52:21Z hq1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T05:55:30Z michael_lee joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:55:55Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:56:19Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-27T05:56:49Z drmeister: Right - I guess everything is T in the end 2015-04-27T05:57:29Z hq1 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:58:30Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:59:21Z xinau joined #lisp 2015-04-27T05:59:33Z beach: Yes, the default type is T. 2015-04-27T06:00:00Z drmeister: (sigh) tagged pointers create a whole new adventure in debugging. 2015-04-27T06:00:18Z beach: Yes. 2015-04-27T06:00:37Z beach: Even using GDB might be more difficult. 2015-04-27T06:02:33Z x1n4u quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T06:02:35Z drmeister: Hmm, when I subtract off the tag by hand this works: print *(Symbol_O*)0x10d3d3a98 2015-04-27T06:02:48Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-04-27T06:02:53Z drmeister: I can work with that. 2015-04-27T06:03:27Z ggole: Structs have identity and can be mutated, which pretty much rules out packing them into arrays 2015-04-27T06:03:35Z ggole: You really need different semantics for that to work 2015-04-27T06:05:28Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-27T06:06:15Z beach: drmeister: Is this GDB? You can call functions from GDB, including functions that print tagged objects. 2015-04-27T06:06:41Z drmeister: It's lldb - I can do the same in lldb but I have to set things up. 2015-04-27T06:07:33Z beach: Time for me to go. Monday mornings are crazy around here. 2015-04-27T06:07:36Z beach left #lisp 2015-04-27T06:07:37Z drmeister: ggole: Why does it rule out packing them into arrays? 2015-04-27T06:08:13Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-27T06:08:20Z nydel joined #lisp 2015-04-27T06:09:18Z ggole: You can't take a struct from outside the array and put it into the array without changing its identity 2015-04-27T06:10:01Z drmeister: I would copy the data from the struct outside the array into an element of the array. 2015-04-27T06:10:12Z ggole: Similarly you can't hold a reference to something embedded in an array that keeps its meanings when the elements of the array are (say) permuted 2015-04-27T06:10:27Z ggole: Then you've changed the semantics. 2015-04-27T06:10:33Z drmeister: But I can hold an index into the array. 2015-04-27T06:10:53Z isoraqathedh_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T06:10:59Z drmeister: I guess that's what I'll be doing then. 2015-04-27T06:11:14Z ggole: You've still changed the semantics. 2015-04-27T06:11:53Z ggole: eq/eql and mutation will behave differently for things stored in your arrays 2015-04-27T06:12:00Z drmeister: The normal array semantics are that (eql (aref *a* i) (aref *a* i)) --> t - correct? 2015-04-27T06:12:47Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-04-27T06:13:35Z drmeister: For the "carrays" that I'm thinking about it would not be true. So I yes, they have different semantics. 2015-04-27T06:13:41Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-27T06:14:16Z {0}grant joined #lisp 2015-04-27T06:14:19Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-27T06:14:22Z ggole: You can't do that for arbitrary structs without causing problems 2015-04-27T06:15:45Z ggole: Maybe you can figure out a range of types for which it would be ok, though 2015-04-27T06:16:05Z isoraqathedh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T06:17:35Z Zhivago: Well, CL lacks locatives which might make it easier. 2015-04-27T06:18:54Z drmeister: What are locatives? 2015-04-27T06:19:06Z Zhivago: Like C pointers. 2015-04-27T06:19:17Z eazar001_cloud quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-27T06:19:59Z Zhivago: Like a first class object representing (aref x 1) which can be setf'd. 2015-04-27T06:20:14Z pjb: or a closure. 2015-04-27T06:20:28Z pjb: cf. http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#C-like-pointers-in-Lisp 2015-04-27T06:20:49Z Zhivago: Closures just wrap the ordinary accessors, so they're of no relevance here. 2015-04-27T06:20:53Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T06:21:06Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T06:21:40Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T06:21:45Z swflint_away joined #lisp 2015-04-27T06:21:53Z swflint_away is now known as swflint 2015-04-27T06:22:30Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-27T06:22:30Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-04-27T06:22:30Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-27T06:22:30Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T06:23:36Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T06:23:57Z hq1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-27T06:25:48Z Zhivago: drmeister: You can always provide new accessors that supply the type information you want. 2015-04-27T06:27:32Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-27T06:27:47Z hapax joined #lisp 2015-04-27T06:27:52Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T06:28:11Z hapax is now known as Guest50068 2015-04-27T06:28:16Z drmeister: I'll think about this more and about what I'm trying to achieve. 2015-04-27T06:28:28Z leberecht quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T06:29:53Z drmeister: It's just that in C and C++ you are often working with arrays of compact structs and classes. 2015-04-27T06:30:27Z drmeister: Like struct Foo {bool a; double x; double y;} and vector 2015-04-27T06:30:34Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-27T06:30:46Z pjb: drmeister: you will definitely need a different set of operators for those C arrays, since the semantics are completely different. 2015-04-27T06:31:04Z drmeister: With the clang compiler integrated into Clasp I could easily generate accessors for arbitrary C/C++ arrays like that. 2015-04-27T06:31:42Z pjb: drmeister: notice that the point of using such C arrays is to be able to use those structures without "extracting" them from the C array. 2015-04-27T06:31:48Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T06:32:01Z drmeister: Could I use CAREF? (FOO-AREF *a* 0) --> #(t 1.0 2.0) 2015-04-27T06:32:07Z pjb: Yes. 2015-04-27T06:32:12Z drmeister: Sorry: Could I use FOO-AREF 2015-04-27T06:32:29Z pjb: Now don't use a vector as result, because of the different types of the structure members. 2015-04-27T06:32:34Z drmeister: and (setf (foo-aref *a* 0) #(nil 99.0 88.0)) 2015-04-27T06:33:06Z pjb: You an have a generic CAREF: (CAREF *a* 0) --> # 2015-04-27T06:33:14Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T06:33:22Z drmeister: Good point. 2015-04-27T06:33:28Z pjb: You could use (setf caref), but with a big warning that it has copy-semantics! 2015-04-27T06:34:07Z pjb: I think it would be preferable to provide a (cacopy *a* 0 #) 2015-04-27T06:34:21Z pjb: Notice that # objects are actually references into C arrays! (always) 2015-04-27T06:34:37Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-27T06:34:49Z pjb: since C pointers are equivalent to C arrays, and C structures are always referenced by a pointer, you can consider all C structures to be arrays of a single C structure. 2015-04-27T06:35:38Z pjb: Foo s1; Foo s2[1]; Foo* p=&s1; Foo* q=s2; p and q would be handled equivalently in CL. 2015-04-27T06:36:00Z hq1 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T06:37:08Z drmeister: Food for thought - thank you. 2015-04-27T06:37:41Z ggole_: You still have the copying problem. 2015-04-27T06:37:57Z pjb: Definitely. 2015-04-27T06:37:59Z pavelpenev quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-27T06:38:27Z drmeister: What is the copying problem? That I have to copy everything into the carray? 2015-04-27T06:38:35Z pjb: In C, you don't s1=s2[0]; You have to copy member-by-member. In C++ IIRC you may have s1=s2[0]; doing the member-by-member copy or you can implement it. 2015-04-27T06:38:43Z ggole_: In general lisp structs can be arranged in object graphs, with the constructor maintaining invariants about what points to what, what information about the graph is stored somewhere, etc 2015-04-27T06:39:13Z ggole_: If you blindly copy the value of the struct, you can end up with an element of the object graph that has been copied without maintaining those invariants 2015-04-27T06:39:29Z ggole_: So somebody can screw you just by putting something in an array and taking it out again. 2015-04-27T06:40:19Z faserbuendel quit (Quit: I have irrefutable proof that D < 0. It follows trivially from 2D > 3D, which is obviously true.) 2015-04-27T06:40:19Z ggole_: For "dumb data" structs this is not an issue, but then you are faced with the problem of how to tell when something is a dumb data struct 2015-04-27T06:41:02Z drmeister: I'm thinking dumb data here. 2015-04-27T06:41:41Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T06:41:53Z axion: are there any tools to help identifying memory leaks? 2015-04-27T06:42:18Z pjb: ROOM 2015-04-27T06:42:23Z SAL9000: valgrind comes to mind 2015-04-27T06:42:30Z axion: as far as a lisp image 2015-04-27T06:42:38Z pjb: clhs room 2015-04-27T06:42:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_room.htm 2015-04-27T06:43:19Z axion: thanks 2015-04-27T06:44:03Z axion: i was looking for something more verbose 2015-04-27T06:44:21Z axion: like identifying what exactly is being left behind 2015-04-27T06:44:33Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-04-27T06:45:26Z drmeister: One application I have is arrays of 3D vectors. 2015-04-27T06:46:21Z drmeister: I use those all the time. I'd set up starting coordinates and then let a molecular dynamics engine mutate it for a while and then I'd read them out again. 2015-04-27T06:47:22Z pjb: axion: the problem with garbage collection, is to distinguish what is referenced because we need to keep a reference, and what is referenced because we accidentally keep a reference. 2015-04-27T06:47:38Z pjb: axion: ie. by definition, there are no memory leaks in a GC system. 2015-04-27T06:47:46Z drmeister: I better get to bed 2015-04-27T06:48:31Z axion: pjb: I've been trying to identify for weeks why everytime i start my application the ram grows 2015-04-27T06:48:43Z axion: eventually running out of space and crashing the image every few days 2015-04-27T06:51:13Z pjb: cl:room will tell you what kind of lisp objects are live. If you call it several time, you will see if the number of a given kind of lisp objects increases. 2015-04-27T06:51:35Z axion: and they increase rapidly 2015-04-27T06:51:48Z pjb: (room t) actually. 2015-04-27T06:52:01Z axion: yup 2015-04-27T06:52:22Z Guest50068 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-27T06:52:28Z axion: start function 150kbytes of dynamic objects...stop and restart ~300k 2015-04-27T06:52:30Z axion: etc 2015-04-27T06:52:32Z pjb: And only clisp and cmucl give you this useful info. Guess why clisp is my prefered implementation again. 2015-04-27T06:52:32Z ggole_: room isn't much of a memory profiler (although it is handy) 2015-04-27T06:52:39Z splittist joined #lisp 2015-04-27T06:52:57Z splittist: Morning all 2015-04-27T06:53:00Z axion: err 150mbytes 2015-04-27T06:53:18Z ggole_ is now known as ggole 2015-04-27T06:53:35Z pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/+35US 2015-04-27T06:54:49Z axion: hmm, sbcl is not that informative 2015-04-27T06:55:13Z ggole: That's more informative than sbcl indeed 2015-04-27T06:55:37Z pjb: Hence: run your app on clisp for development and debugging. 2015-04-27T06:55:43Z pjb: Hence: write fucking conforming code! 2015-04-27T06:56:17Z axion: isnt that ccl? 2015-04-27T06:57:01Z pjb: No, ccl doesn't enter into details either. 2015-04-27T06:57:09Z axion: oh i see. you called a few 2015-04-27T06:57:19Z pjb: Well, if you start from sbcl, you may want to try cmucl first, since they're closer. 2015-04-27T06:58:00Z pjb: (also, notice how sbcl removes quite a number of nice features from cmucl). 2015-04-27T06:59:59Z balle joined #lisp 2015-04-27T07:00:56Z axion: heh clisp cant quickload anything....just hangs 2015-04-27T07:02:00Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Weird in coding now, or make love, only two things push me away from IRC.) 2015-04-27T07:07:50Z Shinmera- joined #lisp 2015-04-27T07:09:42Z axion: this is odd...every quicklisp function works except quickload 2015-04-27T07:09:43Z failproofshark: hm. perhaps i shoudl try out clisp 2015-04-27T07:09:43Z salv0 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T07:09:43Z Shinmera quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T07:09:44Z axion: if you can get around quicklisp not working 2015-04-27T07:13:28Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-27T07:13:54Z salv0 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-27T07:13:55Z salv00 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T07:14:02Z salv00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T07:14:21Z salv0 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T07:15:37Z |3b| quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-27T07:16:16Z |3b| joined #lisp 2015-04-27T07:25:25Z pjb: axion: the sky is white. 2015-04-27T07:25:26Z axion: so much for debugging on clisp. some of the cffi systems wont compile 2015-04-27T07:25:26Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-04-27T07:25:37Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-04-27T07:29:16Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T07:29:39Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-27T07:32:18Z duko joined #lisp 2015-04-27T07:32:50Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-04-27T07:32:50Z pjb: Hence: don't use FFI, write conforming CL code! 2015-04-27T07:33:09Z jackdaniel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T07:33:09Z anunnaki quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T07:33:34Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T07:34:22Z pjb: But if a CFFI system can't be used with clisp, it's because of a problem with that CFFI system. There's no reason not to be able to compile a C library, just because you use clisp, and clisp has a very good FFI API, so there's no reason not to be able to access a C library from clisp. 2015-04-27T07:34:26Z axion: yeah, i'm going to write confirming opengl code 2015-04-27T07:34:32Z axion: conforming 2015-04-27T07:34:34Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-27T07:34:46Z pjb: a CL to cuda compiler would be nice. 2015-04-27T07:35:31Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-04-27T07:35:49Z duko: i'm looking for algorithm advice and this channel has previously pointed me in the right places 2015-04-27T07:36:01Z pjb: Our bad. 2015-04-27T07:36:04Z axion: don't have the required hardware 2015-04-27T07:36:14Z pjb: See guy! That's why you shouldn't encourage bad behavior! 2015-04-27T07:36:43Z axion: not enough exclamation 2015-04-27T07:37:00Z pjb: :-) 2015-04-27T07:37:21Z pjb: duko: as long as it's written in Common Lisp, it's ok. 2015-04-27T07:37:39Z duko: i'm working with a tree of nodes. some nodes have behaviour whose definition is completed with values from other nodes in the tree. 2015-04-27T07:38:25Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T07:38:27Z duko: somewhat like rotation in a red black tree where rotation involves information from child parent uncle... 2015-04-27T07:39:23Z duko: i want a functional solution to that can be used for this 2015-04-27T07:39:53Z cadadar_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T07:40:18Z duko: is there a pattern or technique anyone might recommend? 2015-04-27T07:40:48Z pjb: There's a book about functional data structure around. You should amazon for it. 2015-04-27T07:41:54Z duko: do you think this is solved with a data structure? 2015-04-27T07:42:50Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T07:42:52Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T07:43:29Z duko: http://www.amazon.com/Purely-Functional-Structures-Chris-Okasaki/dp/0521663504 2015-04-27T07:43:37Z pjb: yes, this one. 2015-04-27T07:43:39Z duko: do you recommend this? 2015-04-27T07:43:47Z H4ns: duko: makes me think of zippers 2015-04-27T07:43:53Z pjb: I didn't read it, but I heard it highly recommended. 2015-04-27T07:44:39Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-04-27T07:45:04Z duko: H4ns: thank you so so much 2015-04-27T07:46:33Z duko: i think that is what i will want 2015-04-27T07:47:36Z duko: wow yes 2015-04-27T07:49:05Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T07:51:54Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-27T07:52:32Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-04-27T07:53:15Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-27T08:04:37Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-27T08:08:21Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-27T08:10:00Z kushal quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-27T08:10:07Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-04-27T08:10:28Z |3b| quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T08:14:41Z s1n4 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T08:15:05Z jackdaniel joined #lisp 2015-04-27T08:17:32Z sharkz_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T08:17:35Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-27T08:18:51Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-27T08:21:03Z rtoym quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-27T08:21:05Z Guest69039 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T08:21:05Z Guest69039 quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-27T08:23:15Z {0}grant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T08:23:18Z rtoym joined #lisp 2015-04-27T08:26:29Z Saigut joined #lisp 2015-04-27T08:27:04Z Shinmera- is now known as Shinmera 2015-04-27T08:27:29Z Saigut: what's the different between let and setq? 2015-04-27T08:27:48Z Zhivago: One binds, the other assigns. 2015-04-27T08:29:04Z Zhivago: { int i = 10; ... } vs. i = 10; in C parlance. 2015-04-27T08:30:10Z H4ns: Saigut: most common lisp implementations make it harder for you to get the difference by silently creating global variables when you use setq on a variable that has not yet been created. 2015-04-27T08:30:11Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-04-27T08:32:14Z Saigut: yeah, I do find that setq can also introduce new variables 2015-04-27T08:32:38Z H4ns: Saigut: that is not something that the standard mandates, but rather a repl convenience for old people 2015-04-27T08:33:00Z H4ns: Saigut: (old people who were using lisps before common lisp, that is) 2015-04-27T08:36:40Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-27T08:43:29Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T08:45:44Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-04-27T08:46:47Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-04-27T08:49:45Z cadadar_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-27T08:50:30Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T08:50:56Z Pastaf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-27T08:53:09Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-27T08:53:20Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-04-27T08:57:33Z smokeink: http://moroumo.blogspot.nl/2012/09/cant-load-clsql-mysql-in-sbcl-on-debian.html 2015-04-27T08:58:01Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-27T09:02:05Z d4ryus_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T09:02:11Z pranavrc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-27T09:02:49Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-27T09:03:43Z zhcy joined #lisp 2015-04-27T09:04:23Z zhcy: hello,every one! 2015-04-27T09:04:27Z duko left #lisp 2015-04-27T09:04:45Z zhcy: hello~~~ 2015-04-27T09:04:56Z smokeink: hi 2015-04-27T09:05:13Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-27T09:08:06Z salv0 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-27T09:08:16Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T09:08:28Z zhcy: Is there any lisp source that worth to read? 2015-04-27T09:08:44Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-27T09:09:36Z Guest31053 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T09:09:42Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-27T09:10:02Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-27T09:10:22Z Guest31053 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T09:10:23Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-27T09:10:46Z zhcy: hello~~~ 2015-04-27T09:11:04Z zhcy: IS ANYONE HERE? 2015-04-27T09:11:12Z jackdaniel: zhcy: many people suggest http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/ 2015-04-27T09:11:16Z jackdaniel: as good learning experience 2015-04-27T09:11:19Z jackdaniel isn't here 2015-04-27T09:11:50Z zhcy: haha~ 2015-04-27T09:14:58Z zhcy: Is scip a good book for beginner? 2015-04-27T09:15:38Z marvi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T09:16:33Z ehu: zhcy: if you can program already, I'd start with Practical Common Lisp 2015-04-27T09:17:00Z Shinmera: ehu: Oh! You're here! Did you read drmeister's inquiry about a mailing list for Clasp? 2015-04-27T09:17:35Z ehu: Shinmera: missed that. (just walked in) 2015-04-27T09:17:46Z ehu: Shinmera: but we can set it up of course. 2015-04-27T09:17:58Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-04-27T09:17:58Z marvi quit (Changing host) 2015-04-27T09:17:58Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-04-27T09:18:13Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2015-04-27T09:18:20Z Shinmera: ehu: That would be great. 2015-04-27T09:18:22Z ehu: drmeister: I'm assuming you want a stand-alone mailing list; not one associated with a common-lisp.net project? 2015-04-27T09:18:50Z ehu: drmeister: send me the details at admin@common-lisp.net (like which mailing list(s) exactly you want) 2015-04-27T09:19:18Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T09:23:13Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-27T09:23:24Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T09:24:01Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-27T09:24:14Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-27T09:24:51Z salv0 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T09:24:53Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-27T09:27:37Z zhcy left #lisp 2015-04-27T09:28:15Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T09:30:05Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T09:31:06Z lieven quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-04-27T09:31:26Z ehu: yay! gitlab is fixing the bugs I reported! 2015-04-27T09:33:27Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-27T09:33:38Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-04-27T09:33:38Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-27T09:33:44Z lieven joined #lisp 2015-04-27T09:33:47Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T09:37:18Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T09:41:17Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T09:45:56Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T09:51:14Z flip214 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T09:53:49Z jtz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-27T09:54:31Z marcoecc joined #lisp 2015-04-27T09:54:31Z tianyu joined #lisp 2015-04-27T09:55:34Z jtz joined #lisp 2015-04-27T10:01:55Z s1n4 quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-27T10:06:10Z flip214 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T10:06:21Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2015-04-27T10:06:37Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-04-27T10:07:59Z marcoecc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-27T10:10:19Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-27T10:15:27Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-04-27T10:17:29Z redeemed joined #lisp 2015-04-27T10:18:41Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T10:21:29Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-27T10:23:58Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-27T10:24:19Z isoraqathedh_ is now known as isoraqathedh 2015-04-27T10:24:21Z alama joined #lisp 2015-04-27T10:24:22Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-27T10:24:45Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T10:28:57Z michael_lee quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-04-27T10:29:34Z pranavrc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-27T10:30:46Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2015-04-27T10:31:13Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-27T10:33:09Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-27T10:34:29Z Saigut_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T10:35:04Z troydm joined #lisp 2015-04-27T10:35:21Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-04-27T10:36:40Z hlavaty: how would i achieve (rename-file "/tmp/a.txt" "/tmp/b")? 2015-04-27T10:37:17Z hlavaty: this creates /tmp/b.txt due to merge-pathnames as specified by the standard :-( 2015-04-27T10:38:02Z Saigut__ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T10:38:08Z Saigut quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-27T10:40:44Z alama: perhaps do it in two steps? open /tmp/b, write the contents of /tmp/a.txt to it; then delete /tmp/a.txt 2015-04-27T10:41:27Z Saigut_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-27T10:42:08Z hlavaty: yeah, i was hoping that there would be a better way; this has to copy data instead of just changing the filename 2015-04-27T10:42:17Z antoszka: hlavaty: i'd probably use CL-FAD, but you'd have to copy/delete in two steps anyway. 2015-04-27T10:42:27Z hlavaty: ok thanks 2015-04-27T10:42:30Z antoszka: as there's no move/rename function 2015-04-27T10:42:53Z Shinmera: Copying seems like quite the kludge for something like this. 2015-04-27T10:43:40Z hlavaty: we already have a case for rename to different partition so now we have another case when the specified output pathname is different from the one returned by rename-file 2015-04-27T10:44:11Z Shinmera: On SBCL at least you can use sb-posix:rename instead. 2015-04-27T10:44:27Z hlavaty: does it work on windows? 2015-04-27T10:44:51Z hlavaty: i think we'll just fall back to copying 2015-04-27T10:44:53Z milosn_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T10:45:47Z Shinmera: I can't test it right now, but I'd hope it works. 2015-04-27T10:45:58Z hlavaty: ok thanks 2015-04-27T10:46:52Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T10:47:04Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-04-27T10:48:00Z milosn_ is now known as milosn 2015-04-27T10:51:30Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-04-27T10:52:45Z Shinmera: I'm actually surprised that UIOP doesn't have a function to correct this behaviour portably. 2015-04-27T10:54:37Z antoszka: iolib doesn't concern itself with those kinds of operations, does it? 2015-04-27T10:59:03Z Guest50068 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T10:59:59Z candy2002 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T11:00:06Z candy2002 left #lisp 2015-04-27T11:00:17Z yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-04-27T11:00:38Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-04-27T11:02:21Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-04-27T11:03:28Z fe[nl]ix: there are filesystem operations, but not rename 2015-04-27T11:03:47Z fe[nl]ix: I could add it if it's useful to somebody 2015-04-27T11:07:04Z Guest50068 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-27T11:09:33Z jackdaniel: hlavaty: try (rename-file (make-pathname :directory "tmp" :name "a.txt" :type nil) (make-pathname :directory "tmp" :name "b" :type nil)) 2015-04-27T11:12:39Z luis: I'd like to basically do RPC between two Lisps. I'm considering using lfarm even though it sounded overkill at first. Anybody have any other suggestions? 2015-04-27T11:13:09Z Shinmera: There's basic-binary-ipc 2015-04-27T11:14:34Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-27T11:15:24Z Guest50068 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T11:15:50Z luis: Sadly, I'm on Win7, which apparently isn't supported by that library. This code will probably even have to run on XP *shudder* 2015-04-27T11:15:56Z hlavaty: jackdaniel: thanks 2015-04-27T11:16:17Z luis: Shinmera: thanks for the suggestion anyway :) 2015-04-27T11:16:25Z hlavaty: but there are other pathname components 2015-04-27T11:17:37Z jackdaniel: general idea is to use only name with type explicitly set to nil 2015-04-27T11:18:01Z hlavaty: have you tried it? i think it doesnt work 2015-04-27T11:18:12Z hlavaty: merge pathnames is inside rename-file 2015-04-27T11:18:25Z hlavaty: so it doesnt matter what do you pass in 2015-04-27T11:18:28Z jackdaniel: i've put make-pathname, not merge 2015-04-27T11:18:41Z hlavaty: have you tried it? 2015-04-27T11:18:47Z jackdaniel: well, I did and it renamed a.txt to b 2015-04-27T11:19:04Z hlavaty: i see, you put the extension in the name 2015-04-27T11:19:27Z hlavaty: now try it with "/tmp/a.txt" and "/tmp/b" 2015-04-27T11:19:48Z jackdaniel: thats exactly what I have tried, please check paste I gave you 2015-04-27T11:19:49Z hlavaty: this is getting uglier and uglier 2015-04-27T11:20:06Z hlavaty: yes, you create the pathname manually 2015-04-27T11:20:27Z hlavaty: that is not what i want 2015-04-27T11:20:47Z hlavaty: anyway i dont want to mess with cl pathnames; i have a solution 2015-04-27T11:22:33Z hlavaty: jackdaniel: but the idea is good thanks:-) 2015-04-27T11:23:01Z jackdaniel: you are welcome, yet I'm not sure, what is ugly in creating pathname? 2015-04-27T11:23:57Z hlavaty: it's ugly because there are many ways to get it wrong 2015-04-27T11:24:21Z hlavaty: e.g. your example would not work on windows c:/a.txt d:/b 2015-04-27T11:24:50Z hlavaty: and i dont want to think about all the other bugs i could introduce 2015-04-27T11:26:22Z yang quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-27T11:26:41Z hlavaty: you just shifted the problem to a new one, ie to create a pathname in the right format 2015-04-27T11:27:18Z Shinmera: You can't use RENAME over different drives anyway. 2015-04-27T11:27:30Z hlavaty: i know 2015-04-27T11:28:13Z hlavaty: so many cases to think about:-) 2015-04-27T11:29:06Z Shinmera: I just opted to use uiop:copy-file and uiop:delete-file-if-exists in code where I need to move things. 2015-04-27T11:30:11Z antoszka: yeah, you could do the same two with cl-fad I suppose 2015-04-27T11:30:38Z Shinmera thinks one should avoid cl-fad nowadays. 2015-04-27T11:30:56Z kp666 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-27T11:30:58Z jackdaniel: wouldn't that be inefficient when using big files? 2015-04-27T11:31:04Z jackdaniel: moving° 2015-04-27T11:31:23Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Sure, but there's no way to move it across disks without copying. And it's very hard to know when a move would cross disks. 2015-04-27T11:31:32Z jackdaniel: oh, across disks 2015-04-27T11:32:09Z Shinmera: Well, not very hard, but annoying enough that I don't bother. 2015-04-27T11:32:14Z hlavaty: Shinmera: if rename-file fails, one can fallback to copying 2015-04-27T11:32:31Z antoszka: Shinmera: why is that (avoiding cl-fad)? 2015-04-27T11:32:32Z hlavaty: yeah, but annoying 2015-04-27T11:32:35Z jackdaniel: the right thing® 2015-04-27T11:32:40Z Shinmera: antoszka: Because there's UIOP. 2015-04-27T11:32:44Z antoszka: okay :) 2015-04-27T11:32:54Z mega1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-27T11:33:24Z jackdaniel: is uiop written in cl, or rather has implementation specific #+ ? 2015-04-27T11:33:55Z Shinmera: uiop is bundled with ASDF and thus probably works better as a compat library than anything else. 2015-04-27T11:34:20Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: It does a lot of feature testing to smoothen things out across implementations, yes. 2015-04-27T11:34:25Z Cymew: I'd argue that the bet reason to use UIOP is that you probably already have it installed. 2015-04-27T11:34:33Z Cymew: Ah, Shinmera types faster than I do. 2015-04-27T11:34:43Z yang joined #lisp 2015-04-27T11:34:47Z mega1 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T11:34:49Z Shinmera doesn't type fast enough for his tastes 2015-04-27T11:34:51Z xinau quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-27T11:34:55Z Cymew: Who does? 2015-04-27T11:35:11Z alpha-: I saw a few times in materials discussing lisp machines and flaws of modern computers a point brought up about how bad/flawed it is to have a separation between volatile memory (ram) and persistent memory (hdd), and that the concept of 'file' itself is flawed, but this didn't make much sense to me; can someone explain these points? 2015-04-27T11:35:16Z Shinmera: Cymew: Content people, I guess. 2015-04-27T11:35:25Z Cymew: Mmm. Coul dbe 2015-04-27T11:36:01Z Cymew: They also probably uses the space bar correctly 2015-04-27T11:36:42Z Shinmera: alpha-: It reduces complexity a lot for the application writer. The OS will take care of how and where to store files, how to swap things out and in, etc. 2015-04-27T11:37:24Z Shinmera: alpha-: This makes accessing resources very uniform as there's no distinction to be made anymore. 2015-04-27T11:38:26Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-27T11:39:07Z alpha-: Shinmera but how are things organized then, if not as files 2015-04-27T11:39:14Z gniourf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-27T11:39:24Z Shinmera: alpha-: As records in a tagged database, for example. 2015-04-27T11:39:41Z H4ns: or simply as persistent memory objects 2015-04-27T11:39:58Z H4ns: imagine a system where address space is not considered to be a sparse resource 2015-04-27T11:40:13Z H4ns: in such a system, every object can just receive an address and keep it forever. 2015-04-27T11:40:32Z Shinmera: alpha-: The argument on that part is less against files themselves, but rather against the hierarchical folder structure we have present. If instead you select files by certain attributes, things become much less convoluted. 2015-04-27T11:40:34Z ogamita: alpha-: on a 64-bit systems, you have enough addresses to map ALL your local hard disks. 2015-04-27T11:40:37Z H4ns: research systems exist that work that way, but mainstream has not caught up. which is painful. 2015-04-27T11:40:52Z H4ns: Shinmera: you're wrong 2015-04-27T11:40:56Z Shinmera: Oh? 2015-04-27T11:41:11Z H4ns: Shinmera: it is more the forced serialization and deserialization that is the biggest pain point. 2015-04-27T11:41:19Z Shinmera: Ah, right. I forgot about that. 2015-04-27T11:41:28Z ogamita: But notice even if files didn't exist, we'd re-invent them in an object world. 2015-04-27T11:41:54Z ogamita: Because sometimes you want the safetly and persistency of closed objects, vs. open objects, even when you can reference them directly with a single address. 2015-04-27T11:42:14Z Cymew: There are a lot of talk about the "semantic desktop" that supposedly works like that, and I'm less than convinced. 2015-04-27T11:42:26Z fragamus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-27T11:42:39Z H4ns: Cymew: desktop. if you start with that word, you're already doomed. 2015-04-27T11:42:50Z Cymew: Maybe 2015-04-27T11:43:23Z ogamita: My point is that basically we don't work with bits, but with metafores, and it doesn't really matter what metafore you're using, at one point there always be a mismatch between the metafore and the underlying mechanisms. 2015-04-27T11:43:45Z Shinmera: *metaphor 2015-04-27T11:43:58Z ogamita: (But indeed, nowadays, with 64-bit address spaces, a change of metaphor could be welcome. 2015-04-27T11:44:23Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-27T11:45:02Z d4ryus_ is now known as d4ryus 2015-04-27T11:45:42Z p_l: ogamita: Usually such a change in metaphor brings a horrible impedance mismatch, especially if you don't have everything structured from start for it 2015-04-27T11:45:43Z Shinmera: On that note, how does Mezzano organise files? 2015-04-27T11:46:50Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T11:47:20Z alpha-: H4ns what do you mean by forced serialization and deserialization? 2015-04-27T11:47:22Z ogamita: Classically, with CL pathnames, and a remote file system. 2015-04-27T11:47:35Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-04-27T11:47:40Z gniourf joined #lisp 2015-04-27T11:47:40Z Shinmera: ogamita: It doesn't have a local filesystem yet, right? 2015-04-27T11:47:55Z H4ns: alpha-: in current systems, you need to have an external representation for your application objects and transform them when you want to persist/unpersist 2015-04-27T11:48:34Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T11:48:44Z H4ns: alpha-: that external representation needs to be maintained differently than your normal application state, which is painful because you constantly have to shuffle between two different system. 2015-04-27T11:48:53Z alpha-: by persist do you mean writing to a file ? 2015-04-27T11:49:03Z H4ns: alpha-: yes. or to a database. 2015-04-27T11:49:10Z alpha-: I see. Ok. 2015-04-27T11:49:24Z Shinmera: alpha-: If you have a uniform representation, you can simply freeze your entire program state and resume it later. 2015-04-27T11:50:06Z Shinmera: Sharing of data between programs also becomes trivial, etc. 2015-04-27T11:51:32Z Saigut joined #lisp 2015-04-27T11:51:48Z alpha-: this seems like an interesting concept 2015-04-27T11:51:56Z alpha-: is there a way to see this in action? 2015-04-27T11:52:06Z Shinmera: Write an OS :) 2015-04-27T11:52:09Z H4ns: alpha-: search for orthogonal persistence 2015-04-27T11:52:17Z alpha-: ok 2015-04-27T11:52:20Z H4ns: alpha-: there have been several research systems which tried the idea 2015-04-27T11:52:41Z Cymew: Plan9 took an "interesting" route, as usual? 2015-04-27T11:52:50Z H4ns: the eumel/elan system was orthogonally persistent, and it was used in production to some extent. 2015-04-27T11:52:50Z alama quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-04-27T11:53:00Z ogamita: alpha-: have a look at http://eros-os.org 2015-04-27T11:53:06Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-27T11:53:19Z H4ns: the interesting thing was how you'd usually handle an "oops" type mistake. what you'd do is switch off the machine, hoping that no snapshot was made since you made the error. 2015-04-27T11:53:21Z p_l: There's also OS/400, which has unified address space across all memory devices 2015-04-27T11:53:33Z alpha-: would it be possible to implement something like this in linux? 2015-04-27T11:53:40Z H4ns: the system would then resume at the last snapshot, consistently and with your mistake not having happened. 2015-04-27T11:53:41Z ogamita: For the fans of HackerNews, I've put a #hn channel with a bot transmitting the new news. 2015-04-27T11:53:42Z H4ns: alpha-: nope. 2015-04-27T11:53:47Z H4ns: alpha-: linux. is teh sux. 2015-04-27T11:53:53Z Saigut__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T11:53:55Z ogamita: alpha-: it's possible, using mmap a lot. 2015-04-27T11:54:13Z ogamita: And linux already has hibernate snapshots. 2015-04-27T11:54:40Z H4ns: you can of course implement such a system on top of linux, but linux itself is not the type of environment that helps implementing it. 2015-04-27T11:54:51Z ogamita: There are also stuff in supervisors for process migrations, etc. But it's not all-batteries-included at all. 2015-04-27T11:55:39Z alpha-: H4ns out of curiosity, what do you run on your computer right now 2015-04-27T11:56:25Z H4ns: alpha-: what's that to you? i run osx on my desktop and freebsd or linux on most of my servers. 2015-04-27T11:57:05Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-27T11:57:05Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-04-27T11:57:05Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-27T11:57:08Z alpha-: H4ns well you said linux sux, so I was wondering if there's something better that I'm unaware of 2015-04-27T11:57:14Z alpha-: thats why I asked 2015-04-27T11:57:35Z H4ns: alpha-: i also drive a car with a combustion engine. 2015-04-27T11:57:44Z Shinmera: Better conceptually does not necessarily mean more feasible. 2015-04-27T11:57:49Z H4ns: alpha-: that does not stop me from pointing out that it sux 2015-04-27T11:57:56Z alpha-: k 2015-04-27T11:58:02Z ebrasca: linux it's just a kernel 2015-04-27T11:58:06Z H4ns: right. 2015-04-27T11:58:34Z H4ns: "we cannot make it right because you know linux" 2015-04-27T11:59:04Z alpha-: :) 2015-04-27T11:59:15Z ogamita: You can hack the linux kernel to add the features needed to make it possible, at least. 2015-04-27T12:01:55Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T12:03:56Z ebrasca: I think gnu/linux is good reference operating system 2015-04-27T12:04:06Z jdz_: Tanenbaum disagrees 2015-04-27T12:04:16Z jdz_ is now known as jdz 2015-04-27T12:04:17Z H4ns: ebrasca: what other operating systems do you know? 2015-04-27T12:04:40Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-04-27T12:05:04Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T12:05:14Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-27T12:05:49Z Saigut quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-27T12:06:03Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-27T12:10:18Z ebrasca: H4ns: JNode (WIP) 2015-04-27T12:13:29Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T12:13:33Z alama joined #lisp 2015-04-27T12:16:36Z tianyu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T12:16:51Z tianyu joined #lisp 2015-04-27T12:16:53Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-27T12:18:16Z Shinmera- joined #lisp 2015-04-27T12:18:36Z Shinmera- quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-27T12:18:45Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-04-27T12:21:37Z smokeink: does anyone use clsql under debian? 'been struggling the whole day with a bunch of these: STYLE-WARNING: Undefined alien: "clsql_mysql_num_rows", still i don't know how to fix it.. Is it not loading /usr/lib/clsql/clsql_mysql64.so (this so file exports the missing functions..) How to make it load the shared object file? installing cl-sql and cl-sql-mysql only make things worse, it then gives # on #... 2015-04-27T12:23:18Z jdz: smokeink: how come that .so is in /usr/lib? 2015-04-27T12:24:14Z harish joined #lisp 2015-04-27T12:24:39Z smokeink: i don't know how it's supposed to load these .so files so i created a few symlinks /usr/lib/clsql/clsql_mysql64.so /usr/lib/clsql/clsql_mysql.so /usr/lib/clsql_mysql64.so /usr/lib/clsql_mysql.so <- al of these point to ~/quicklisp/dist/.../clsql/db-mysql/clsql_mysql64.so 2015-04-27T12:25:40Z smokeink: cuz i observed that when i apt-get cl-sql and cl-sql-mysql, the so is there /usr/lib/clsql/ 2015-04-27T12:26:18Z jdz: well, because then the package is provided by the system's package manager 2015-04-27T12:26:51Z jdz: anyway, clsql should be able to find files from its own distribution 2015-04-27T12:27:23Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-04-27T12:29:14Z manfoo7` joined #lisp 2015-04-27T12:31:00Z smokeink: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-03-12/failure-report/umlisp.html 2015-04-27T12:31:10Z manfoo7 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-27T12:31:13Z smokeink: STYLE-WARNING: Undefined alien: "clsql_mysql_num_rows" 2015-04-27T12:31:16Z smokeink: STYLE-WARNING: Undefined alien: "clsql_mysql_affected_rows" ... 2015-04-27T12:31:57Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-27T12:32:20Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-04-27T12:32:33Z smokeink: i'm getting similar output to what's there in the failure report 2015-04-27T12:34:06Z ogamita: smokeink: oh, you apt-geted cl-sql? Then no wonder it doesn't work. 2015-04-27T12:34:17Z ogamita: Always get cl software using quicklisp, not linux distributions. 2015-04-27T12:34:42Z smokeink: i then uninstalled it 2015-04-27T12:35:41Z smokeink: cuz i saw people say on the forums 'always use quicklisp , not linux distributions' so i uninstalled it, but it gives those "Undefined alien:..." errors 2015-04-27T12:39:50Z tianyu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T12:40:05Z tianyu joined #lisp 2015-04-27T12:40:24Z |3b| joined #lisp 2015-04-27T12:41:17Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-04-27T12:44:19Z Jaskologist quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T12:50:45Z Jaskologist joined #lisp 2015-04-27T12:55:17Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-27T12:59:07Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:04:29Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-27T13:07:24Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:08:18Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:08:23Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-27T13:11:02Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:11:09Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T13:11:44Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:11:49Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:12:00Z d4ryus quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-27T13:13:00Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:13:03Z failproofshark: morning 2015-04-27T13:13:10Z smokeink quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-27T13:15:22Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:15:37Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:22:31Z itPuffinB joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:24:05Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:24:39Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:24:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-04-27T13:24:39Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:24:41Z pranavrc quit 2015-04-27T13:25:34Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:25:38Z apathor joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:27:25Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:28:44Z pjb: What about ldconfig -v|grep mysql ? 2015-04-27T13:30:49Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:39:41Z cyphase quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T13:40:09Z temporary4242 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:40:26Z zeroish joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:42:16Z dim quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-27T13:42:47Z badkins_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:42:48Z dim joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:42:52Z temporary4242: Hi, I have a VPS running OpenBSD 5.6. I'm trying to install SBCL 1.2.7 and then compile 1.2.10 with thread support. I'm having all kinds of mmap problems. I see from my top that I have about 700mb memory free. 2015-04-27T13:43:33Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-27T13:43:37Z temporary4242: I'm not sure what to do. I think that maybe I should upgrade my VPS to 4Gb RAM, but I'm not sure whether that will solve the problem. 2015-04-27T13:44:03Z temporary4242: Have any of you all run into this problem? 2015-04-27T13:44:31Z tuturto quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-27T13:44:35Z tianyu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T13:44:48Z Zhivago: There is address space and there is memory. 2015-04-27T13:44:54Z tianyu joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:45:09Z tuturto joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:45:35Z temporary4242: I can pkg_add the SBCL package from the repository but it's quite an old version 1.1.14 and when I try to compile 1.2.7, I run into an error where there the debug mode raises an uncaught condition. 2015-04-27T13:45:39Z sbryant quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-27T13:45:49Z H4ns: temporary4242: what do you need the new version for? 2015-04-27T13:46:08Z temporary4242: Z, so you think it's because I don't have enough memory. 2015-04-27T13:46:08Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T13:46:35Z nyef: Does OpenBSD have any level of memory overcommit control? 2015-04-27T13:46:54Z temporary4242: H, I just need the new version because I would like to run threads. I am planning to run hunchentoot and I need to make sure that it doesn't block my SLIME editing. 2015-04-27T13:47:31Z nyef: ... SBCL has threads on OpenBSD now? Neat! 2015-04-27T13:47:50Z sbryant joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:48:13Z temporary4242: nyef, I'm actually not sure about the memory overcommit. I'll have to look at that. 2015-04-27T13:48:24Z nyef: Oh, and you know that we're in code-freeze for 1.2.11, right? 2015-04-27T13:48:39Z temporary4242: nyef, yes I tried it on a VM and it does work (the threads on openbsd). 2015-04-27T13:50:29Z nyef: Hrm. I'm not seeing any mention of OpenBSD threads in NEWS. 2015-04-27T13:51:17Z nyef: On the other hand, I'm seeing some mention in the git log. 2015-04-27T13:52:09Z nyef: Ah, new as of Sat Oct 4 09:10:31 2014 -0700. "for adventurous souls". 2015-04-27T13:52:55Z nyef: Apparently "default" ulimits on OpenBSD restrict the process heap size quite a bit. 2015-04-27T13:54:10Z badkins_ is now known as badkins 2015-04-27T13:55:46Z temporary4242: Nyef, yes, I just double-checked, threads are working on 1.2.7. 2015-04-27T13:55:54Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:56:44Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:57:10Z nyef: Great, now that leaves me with a minor dilemma. Do I sully one of my MIPS machines with an OpenBSD install, or do I keep them all for Linux hacking? 2015-04-27T13:57:45Z fe[nl]ix: or just a virtual machine ? 2015-04-27T13:58:02Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:58:39Z nyef: Does OpenBSD support such virtualization? 2015-04-27T13:59:15Z fe[nl]ix: yes, if you mean inside QEMU+KVM/Linux 2015-04-27T13:59:21Z nyef: I mean hosting. 2015-04-27T13:59:22Z joshmcmillan_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:59:35Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-04-27T13:59:46Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T14:00:04Z nyef: I'm still trying to get the PCI controller and a couple of device drivers in the hopes of getting DMA working in Linux. 2015-04-27T14:00:20Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:00:30Z nyef: ... I think I lost something there in terms of word choice. /-: 2015-04-27T14:00:54Z nyef: s/trying to get/fighting/, maybe. 2015-04-27T14:02:05Z temporary4242: nyef, I'm not 100% sure, but I think that openbsd has some philosophical problems being a virtualization host 2015-04-27T14:02:54Z nyef: Mmm. That would be typical of the OpenBSD project, yes. 2015-04-27T14:04:18Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-27T14:05:45Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:06:53Z justinmcp_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T14:07:09Z justinmcp joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:07:58Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:08:41Z p_l: it has philosophical problems with many things, including a possibly bigger smug budget than lispers 2015-04-27T14:09:38Z p_l: (the code is pretty good, so long as it only deals with OpenBSD. Probably will give issues compiling outside of OpenBSD even if it was userland etc. ;>) 2015-04-27T14:09:59Z failproofshark: openbsd. so safe you can't even log in 2015-04-27T14:10:15Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:10:15Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-04-27T14:10:15Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:11:07Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-27T14:11:18Z kvsari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T14:11:28Z quazimodo: hullo 2015-04-27T14:11:35Z failproofshark: hello quazimodo 2015-04-27T14:12:01Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:12:44Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:14:58Z pjb: botihn (bot in #hn) sources are available at https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/tree/master/small-cl-pgms/botihn 2015-04-27T14:15:44Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:16:43Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:16:55Z wolf_mozart quit (Changing host) 2015-04-27T14:16:55Z wolf_mozart joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:16:55Z wolf_mozart quit (Changing host) 2015-04-27T14:16:55Z wolf_mozart joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:17:01Z ogamita left #lisp 2015-04-27T14:17:09Z Aranshada|W joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:19:08Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:19:43Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-04-27T14:19:43Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:20:09Z quazimodo: hey all 2015-04-27T14:20:46Z temporary4242: Okay Zhivago, I see now what you are saying, The contiguous address space should be large enough that SBCL will run without interference. I think that i will play with the --dynamic-space-size 2015-04-27T14:20:53Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2015-04-27T14:24:07Z oleo: hello 2015-04-27T14:25:14Z zadrot_ebaniy joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:27:15Z hellome joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:27:20Z badkins quit 2015-04-27T14:28:04Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:30:38Z My_Hearing joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:31:17Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-27T14:31:59Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T14:32:35Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:32:53Z xinau joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:33:34Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-27T14:36:51Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-27T14:37:37Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-27T14:38:17Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-27T14:38:29Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-27T14:39:38Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:40:48Z edk quit (Quit: edk) 2015-04-27T14:42:08Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-27T14:43:48Z edk joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:46:14Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:46:15Z aap joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:46:28Z prphp joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:46:31Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T14:52:36Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-27T14:53:26Z splittist: pjb: nice multics emacs reference. 2015-04-27T14:53:32Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-27T14:57:22Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-27T15:01:55Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-27T15:02:57Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-27T15:04:21Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-27T15:04:33Z Ethan- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T15:10:27Z __main__ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T15:10:48Z tianyu quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-27T15:11:19Z pavelpenev quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-27T15:13:48Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-27T15:17:26Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-27T15:24:06Z beach joined #lisp 2015-04-27T15:24:09Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T15:24:19Z beach: Good afternoon everyone! 2015-04-27T15:24:29Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-27T15:24:44Z Adlai: 'noon 2015-04-27T15:24:55Z oleo: hello beach 2015-04-27T15:24:55Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-04-27T15:25:00Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-27T15:25:12Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-04-27T15:26:23Z beach: Is it always possible to use ...-float-epsilon to check whether for two values x and y, there is no value between the two? 2015-04-27T15:26:36Z beach: For all pairs of values x and y I mean. 2015-04-27T15:27:17Z beach: It is not obvious from the definition of ...-float-epsilon, and I am too tired to think it through. 2015-04-27T15:27:28Z nyef: Probably not? 2015-04-27T15:27:51Z nyef: clhs single-float-epsilon 2015-04-27T15:27:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_short_.htm 2015-04-27T15:29:02Z nyef: Wow, almost definitely not. 2015-04-27T15:29:12Z beach: I am worried about the non-normalized forms for starters. 2015-04-27T15:29:29Z nyef: I'm worried about fractions with values less than unity. 2015-04-27T15:29:41Z Shinmera wonders what the *-float-epsilon s are useful for 2015-04-27T15:29:44Z beach: Oh. :( 2015-04-27T15:29:51Z nyef: Yeah, "oh". 2015-04-27T15:30:16Z nyef: If you move the point so that you have leading zeros, all of a sudden the epsilon gets relatively larger. 2015-04-27T15:30:26Z beach: Shinmera: The are supposed to give an idea of the precision. 2015-04-27T15:30:33Z ehu: drmeister: around? 2015-04-27T15:30:38Z nyef: Basically, if you have an exponent of less than zero, right? 2015-04-27T15:30:46Z drmeister: ehu: Yes - hello! 2015-04-27T15:30:46Z Shinmera: beach: I see. 2015-04-27T15:31:02Z pjb: splittist: yes, I think it's good to bring over some legacy lore :-) 2015-04-27T15:31:02Z beach: nyef: Like I said, I am too tired to think it through. 2015-04-27T15:31:18Z ehu: drmeister: hi. Shinmera told me you'd like to have a/some mailing list(s) for Clasp? 2015-04-27T15:31:37Z beach: pjb: Which reference was splittist referring to? One I have seen? 2015-04-27T15:32:22Z pjb: Let's see if you can identify it: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/small-cl-pgms/botihn/botihn.lisp 2015-04-27T15:34:18Z beach: pjb: Me? I don't think so. 2015-04-27T15:34:32Z pjb: It's the catch :gazongues :-) 2015-04-27T15:34:48Z pjb: beach: http://gizmonaut.net/blog/software/multics_source_reveals_le_jetteur_des_gazongues.html 2015-04-27T15:35:13Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-27T15:36:07Z temporary4242 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-04-27T15:36:17Z beach: pjb: I see. I totally missed it. 2015-04-27T15:36:52Z drmeister: ehu: Yes, sorry - I typed a reply and I don't know where it went. 2015-04-27T15:36:53Z beach: nyef: I was thinking that if I can always answer that question (is there a value between x and y) then I can eliminate the need for the notation (x) in type specifiers in the type inferencer. 2015-04-27T15:37:17Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-04-27T15:37:27Z drmeister: ehu: Does c-l.net provide services like mailing lists for Common Lisp projects. 2015-04-27T15:37:33Z ehu: yes. 2015-04-27T15:37:37Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-27T15:37:46Z oleo: beach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147564 lol 2015-04-27T15:38:04Z drmeister: ehu: Excellent - could I set up a mailing list for Clasp development on c-l.net? 2015-04-27T15:38:22Z ehu: yes. see /query 2015-04-27T15:38:46Z nyef: beach: Don't forget, various host implementations can have different floating-point types and different sets of specialized arrays. Welcome to cross-compiler hell, part two! 2015-04-27T15:38:49Z marsjaninzmarsa joined #lisp 2015-04-27T15:39:42Z beach: nyef: Yeah, I know. 2015-04-27T15:39:53Z Xof: asking just on the off-chance: does anyone happen to have a Jupyter kernel for CL, ideally sbcl? 2015-04-27T15:40:35Z beach: oleo: What does it draw? 2015-04-27T15:41:21Z oleo: a ∿ 2015-04-27T15:41:45Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-27T15:41:56Z beach: oleo: Nice. 2015-04-27T15:42:21Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T15:42:39Z beach: nyef: I decided at some point that the cross compiler does not have to deal with floating-point numbers. 2015-04-27T15:43:06Z PuercoPop: Xof: you mean like an ipython kernel? agentultra started one a while back (https://github.com/agentultra/butler) but it is in an embryonic state. And there is a 'from scratch project' https://github.com/Inaimathi/cl-notebook here 2015-04-27T15:43:38Z nyef: beach: So your type derivation and related logic for floats is defined in terms of integers and rationals? 2015-04-27T15:44:29Z beach: nyef: No, but I think I decided that the cross compiler doesn't need to compile any code with floating-point numbers in it. Am I wrong? 2015-04-27T15:44:53Z beach: That's a good idea to consider though. 2015-04-27T15:45:03Z rhllor joined #lisp 2015-04-27T15:46:17Z nyef: I don't know if you're wrong, but I'm looking at a compiler that doesn't have any code with floating-point numbers in it (because it was cross-compiled by a compiler that...) and wondering how it's going to compile code that DOES have floating-point numbers. 2015-04-27T15:46:49Z Xof: beach: if your type deriver is general(ish), and when compiling itself tries to derive ranges of mathematical functions, it might well end up executing host floating point code (which in general gives different answers from target floating point code) 2015-04-27T15:47:03Z pjb: It's also Wirth's opinion, that you don't need floating point numbers in compilers (at compilation time of the compiler). 2015-04-27T15:47:38Z pjb: You can keep the floating point literals as an abstract data structure (eg. a string), and defer to run-time, ie. target platform, the conversions. 2015-04-27T15:48:40Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T15:48:51Z oleo: beach: http://www.picpaste.com/pics/math_1.1430149708.png 2015-04-27T15:48:52Z pjb: On the other hand, you might have CL programs that require that you evaluate floating point code at compilation time, in the cross-compiler environment. But it's up to the CL program to ensure that it doesn't do silly things. 2015-04-27T15:49:11Z beach: Xof, nyef: Thanks. I shall have to contemplate that when I am more alert, and not at the end of a 13 hours workday. 2015-04-27T15:49:46Z beach: pjb: I understand. 2015-04-27T15:50:56Z beach: oleo: It's great, isn't it? 2015-04-27T15:51:20Z oleo: beach: nope, it has various scaling issues.... 2015-04-27T15:51:29Z beach: :( 2015-04-27T15:51:43Z oleo: beach: i'm not familiar with all that coord. transformation stuff too..... 2015-04-27T15:52:02Z oleo: beach: try tan, it fails horribly.... 2015-04-27T15:52:33Z beach: oleo: You might get division by 0 and such then. 2015-04-27T15:53:01Z oleo: jep 2015-04-27T15:53:08Z oleo: well, it draws 2015-04-27T15:53:29Z oleo: the the pic is totally off-scale....so to say.... 2015-04-27T15:54:02Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-04-27T15:54:15Z oleo: beach: doing a 2d-draw and plot stuff would be just the same procedures as what's in maxima already..... 2015-04-27T15:54:17Z beach: You are not looking for help from me I hope. Like I said, I am not in state to do anything that advanced. 2015-04-27T15:54:54Z oleo: beach: maximas is much more advanced ofc.... 2015-04-27T15:55:26Z beach: Do we already have a McCLIM interface to Maxima? 2015-04-27T15:55:32Z beach: Or is that what you are trying to do? 2015-04-27T15:55:32Z oleo: beach: i have one 2015-04-27T15:55:39Z oleo: beach: i have one 2015-04-27T15:55:44Z beach: Great! 2015-04-27T15:55:50Z oleo: beach: it works, even plots to gnuplot window 2015-04-27T15:56:20Z beach: But it doesn't use the CLIM functions for plotting then? 2015-04-27T15:56:35Z oleo: beach: but i either want the image loaded directly into the where i ran it, or do all that stuff myself and be independent of it..... 2015-04-27T15:56:50Z oleo: into the window* 2015-04-27T15:57:17Z oleo: beach: that's it, there are 2 ways todo it.... 2015-04-27T15:57:27Z beach: OK. 2015-04-27T15:57:39Z oleo: beach: let gnuplot render the image, and load the image or do the plots yourself.... 2015-04-27T15:58:40Z beach: oleo: You might want to look into Scigraph. It is in the McCLIM distribution. 2015-04-27T15:59:06Z oleo: beach: yes, i have to try to load it, dunno if it works.... 2015-04-27T15:59:19Z beach: I have seen it work in the past. 2015-04-27T15:59:44Z oleo: beach: the functional-geometry stuff is ok too, one can start there too if one wants to.... 2015-04-27T16:00:04Z oleo: beach: i have drawn some plots with it too...., tho it's crude 2015-04-27T16:00:29Z manfoo7` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T16:00:32Z oleo: beach: maybe i can get it to work again 2015-04-27T16:00:41Z beach: That would be great. 2015-04-27T16:00:46Z oleo: didn't try yet 2015-04-27T16:06:47Z beamed_down is now known as Beamed 2015-04-27T16:06:56Z failproofshark quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-27T16:07:11Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-04-27T16:07:40Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-27T16:07:48Z beach: OK, so assume the NATIVE compiler. Is there a way to determine whether for any two floating-point numbers there is a floating point number between the two? Maybe (/ (+ x y) 2) being neither x nor y? 2015-04-27T16:08:10Z failproofshark joined #lisp 2015-04-27T16:08:31Z joshmcmillan_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-27T16:08:34Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-04-27T16:09:59Z splittist: beach: between as in less than one and greater than the other, or half-ish way between? 2015-04-27T16:10:14Z beach: splittist: The former. 2015-04-27T16:10:18Z nyef: Well, your floating point numbers are of the form x*(2^y), with bounds on x and y, aren't they? 2015-04-27T16:10:49Z beach: nyef: I would think so, yes. 2015-04-27T16:11:32Z beach: nyef: We could even assume correct IEEE arithmetic. 2015-04-27T16:11:35Z nyef: I would say that this is almost-certainly a solvable problem, and very likely a solved problem, but that I don't have an actual solution for you. 2015-04-27T16:12:29Z beach: nyef: I'll put it on the back burner. 2015-04-27T16:12:42Z Bike: use the equivalent of nextafter? 2015-04-27T16:13:18Z nyef: Probably a lot easier if you assume that the numbers are normalized. 2015-04-27T16:13:59Z beach: Bike: Yeah. 2015-04-27T16:14:40Z beach: OK, I think I know where to look: In the papers about reading and printing floats. 2015-04-27T16:14:51Z nyef: If they're normalized, then it's probably "just" a comparison of the exponents and then a comparison of the mantissas if necessary. 2015-04-27T16:15:17Z cadadar_ quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-27T16:15:22Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-27T16:15:28Z theos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T16:15:59Z nyef: Hrm. Though not necessarily. 2015-04-27T16:16:41Z nyef: A somewhat interesting problem, but I don't think I'm particularly up for the deep dive into floating point semantics required to properly figure it out. 2015-04-27T16:17:22Z beach: nyef: I understand. 2015-04-27T16:17:48Z beach: I think IEEE is required to do correct rounding and such, so barring overflow, the method that I gave above should work. 2015-04-27T16:18:07Z nyef: The edge case I thought of was from a mantissa of all ones with an exponent of X and a mantissa of all zeros with an exponent of X+1. 2015-04-27T16:18:08Z beach: i.e., checking whether (/ (+ x y) 2) is different from both x and y. 2015-04-27T16:18:50Z beach: nyef: I think that is true, yes. 2015-04-27T16:21:13Z beach: Another possibility: First compute (/ (abs (- y x)) 2). Then try to add that to the smaller of x and y. 2015-04-27T16:21:14Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-27T16:21:30Z oleo: are there any sources for algorithmically plotting and graphing etc. ?? 2015-04-27T16:21:33Z oleo: or books ? 2015-04-27T16:22:37Z redeemed quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-27T16:23:27Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2015-04-27T16:23:51Z beach: oleo: Not my domain, but I am guessing any book on computer graphics would contain that kind of stuff. 2015-04-27T16:24:20Z oleo: ok, thank you 2015-04-27T16:24:37Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-27T16:24:45Z zeroish quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T16:24:55Z beach: nyef: This last method should not have the overflow problem. 2015-04-27T16:24:57Z logand`` joined #lisp 2015-04-27T16:26:40Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-27T16:28:26Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-27T16:28:33Z logand` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-27T16:29:49Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-27T16:30:11Z pjb: beach: I think the problem with IEEE is more that the rounding is parameterizable by the user. 2015-04-27T16:30:40Z pjb: (ccl::get-fpu-mode) --> (:rounding-mode :nearest :overflow t :underflow nil :division-by-zero t :invalid t :inexact nil) 2015-04-27T16:31:02Z xinau quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-27T16:31:03Z pjb: So you want to control it. 2015-04-27T16:31:05Z beach: Yes, I see. 2015-04-27T16:31:12Z beach: Anyway, I think it is safe to assume I don't need the notation (x) in intervals of floats in the type inferencer. 2015-04-27T16:31:15Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-27T16:31:15Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-04-27T16:31:15Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-27T16:31:59Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2015-04-27T16:32:26Z beach: It is also probably not a disaster if I fail to canonicalize (l1 u1) (l2 u2) to (l1 u2) when there is no number between u1 and l2. 2015-04-27T16:33:30Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-04-27T16:33:31Z pjb: A lot of fun is to be have. 2015-04-27T16:33:59Z beach: That's how papers get written. Not in this particular case, though, perhaps. 2015-04-27T16:35:31Z Beamed is now known as beamed_down 2015-04-27T16:39:55Z itPuffinB quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-27T16:42:32Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-04-27T16:46:26Z My_Hearing is now known as Mon_Ouie 2015-04-27T16:49:41Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-27T16:49:59Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-04-27T16:50:21Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T16:51:12Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-27T16:51:20Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T16:53:41Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-27T16:53:41Z marsjaninzmarsa quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-27T16:54:12Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-27T16:55:04Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-04-27T16:55:38Z cyraxjoe quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-04-27T16:55:59Z MightyJoe joined #lisp 2015-04-27T16:59:15Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T17:00:47Z marsjaninzmarsa joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:00:51Z k-stz: I'm looking for a link to "the road to lisp survey" by kenny tilton. My google-fu is weak and I only see dead sites. 2015-04-27T17:02:02Z xinau joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:02:59Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:04:38Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-27T17:04:59Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:05:10Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:05:42Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:06:15Z beamed_down is now known as Beamed 2015-04-27T17:07:04Z PuercoPop: k-stz: you can always use the wayback machine to access the dead sites 2015-04-27T17:08:05Z luis: Except the dead site's robots.txt says no. 2015-04-27T17:08:23Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T17:08:39Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-27T17:08:39Z luis: http://media.tumblr.com/ccfd0d995da79f2f284c9ad47293bf1f/tumblr_inline_mjhc3yOgMp1qz4rgp.gif 2015-04-27T17:09:15Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:11:50Z k-stz: luis: at least I know now that what my friends were spouting was yet another meme 2015-04-27T17:12:21Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-27T17:14:55Z luis: I was trying the ALU wiki, but I think it's there for cliki 2015-04-27T17:14:58Z luis: http://web.archive.org/web/20060709225735/http://www.cliki.net/The%20Road%20to%20Lisp%20Survey 2015-04-27T17:15:22Z Petit_Dejeuner_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-27T17:17:24Z PuercoPop: another option would be to ask him about it through twitter 2015-04-27T17:18:46Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:19:13Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:19:36Z alama quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-04-27T17:20:29Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:20:32Z k-stz: luis: thanks 2015-04-27T17:20:51Z k-stz: PuercoPop: yeah 2015-04-27T17:21:25Z rhllor quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T17:24:03Z dkcl is now known as dickle 2015-04-27T17:24:43Z MightyJoe is now known as cyraxjoe 2015-04-27T17:25:38Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:25:38Z Guest34567 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:27:29Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2015-04-27T17:29:12Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T17:30:09Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-27T17:31:36Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-04-27T17:32:25Z rhllor joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:34:07Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T17:34:33Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:34:36Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:34:54Z Vutral quit (Changing host) 2015-04-27T17:34:54Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:35:21Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:37:15Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:37:18Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:37:25Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:37:42Z hardenedapple quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-27T17:37:43Z emaczen: is trident-mode the most up to date emacs mode for interaction between a browser and parenscript? 2015-04-27T17:37:43Z minion: emaczen, memo from jackdaniel: I'm affraid you still need 32-bit libraries on your system. When we'll move android support to develop branch, I'll try to clarify it on wiki 2015-04-27T17:37:43Z minion: emaczen, memo from jackdaniel: I have manually invited you to mailinglist from admin interface [thut...@gmail.com], let me know, if you received message on your account 2015-04-27T17:38:42Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:40:41Z rhllor quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T17:40:50Z roang joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:40:55Z eni_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:41:14Z emaczen: minion: memo for jackdaniel: Thanks again for all the help, and I got your message. 2015-04-27T17:41:15Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jackdaniel when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-04-27T17:42:50Z Aranshada|W left #lisp 2015-04-27T17:43:22Z emaczen: minion: memo for jackdaniel: I'll try to track down these libraries for Fedora in the mean time... 2015-04-27T17:43:22Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jackdaniel when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-04-27T17:43:42Z {0}grant joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:44:10Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-27T17:45:48Z beach left #lisp 2015-04-27T17:47:49Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:50:36Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:52:29Z rhllor joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:55:44Z prip joined #lisp 2015-04-27T17:55:44Z prip quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-27T17:56:13Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-27T18:01:37Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-27T18:02:09Z xinau quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-27T18:06:10Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-27T18:06:59Z Pollwa joined #lisp 2015-04-27T18:07:10Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-27T18:17:17Z eni_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-27T18:17:31Z prip joined #lisp 2015-04-27T18:18:05Z prip quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-27T18:19:38Z {0}grant quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T18:19:44Z prphp quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-27T18:20:16Z jasom_ is now known as jasom 2015-04-27T18:21:27Z cadadar left #lisp 2015-04-27T18:27:36Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-27T18:29:05Z oleo: beach: another possibility would be to write a driver for gnuplot (mcclim-listener driver so to say) which pipes the graph back.... 2015-04-27T18:29:17Z oleo: beach: no idea 2015-04-27T18:30:14Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-27T18:31:22Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-04-27T18:33:57Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T18:34:14Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-27T18:34:35Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-04-27T18:36:56Z oofoe joined #lisp 2015-04-27T18:38:00Z yuuhi quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.0.50.1)) 2015-04-27T18:38:45Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-27T18:39:24Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T18:40:02Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-04-27T18:41:53Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T18:42:41Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T18:49:33Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-27T18:49:48Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-27T18:50:13Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-27T18:51:30Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-04-27T18:53:34Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-27T18:53:48Z Petit_Dejeuner_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T18:54:01Z devll joined #lisp 2015-04-27T18:55:01Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T18:56:50Z Pollwa quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-27T19:00:02Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-27T19:01:45Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:03:46Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:04:30Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-27T19:09:40Z Pollwa joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:09:54Z trinque: is there a nice way of doing something like SQL's coalesce in common lisp? 2015-04-27T19:10:19Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-27T19:10:20Z trinque: I suppose that's just a number of nested "or" 2015-04-27T19:10:25Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:10:59Z dlowe: just or. No nesting needed 2015-04-27T19:11:03Z Bicyclidine: trinque: you don't need to nest, or takes as many arguments as you want 2015-04-27T19:11:17Z dlowe: (or (maybe-true) (maybe-true) (maybe-true)) 2015-04-27T19:11:28Z x1n4u joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:11:59Z trinque: Bicyclidine: awesome, thank you 2015-04-27T19:12:06Z trinque: should've just looked at the docs 2015-04-27T19:12:11Z dlowe: bonus: the expressions are only evaluated once, unlike in sql 2015-04-27T19:12:24Z trinque: fancy 2015-04-27T19:13:06Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-27T19:14:36Z Longlius quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T19:15:15Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:15:25Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-27T19:15:57Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:17:04Z Pollwa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-27T19:17:57Z devll quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-27T19:19:15Z pt1 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-04-27T19:19:18Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:19:32Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:19:49Z alama joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:22:29Z trinque: would anyone know how to get buildapp to produce a binary with sbcl's --disable-debugger 2015-04-27T19:22:30Z trinque: ? 2015-04-27T19:23:18Z Xach: trinque: I use (sb-ext:disable-debugger) in the entry function for that. 2015-04-27T19:23:33Z trinque: ah ty! perfect 2015-04-27T19:24:00Z trinque: is there a smart way to toggle that between development and production, or do you just comment it while working in the repl? 2015-04-27T19:24:07Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:24:51Z pjb: Don't call the same function. 2015-04-27T19:24:51Z ehu: Xach: do you use Darcs repositories from common-lisp.net for Quicklisp? 2015-04-27T19:25:16Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:25:36Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-27T19:25:48Z trinque: pjb: makes sense; thanks for entertaining newb questions 2015-04-27T19:25:57Z Xach: ehu: let me check 2015-04-27T19:26:39Z Xach: ehu: yes, 25 of them 2015-04-27T19:27:02Z ehu: ok. I'll be converting Darcs to Git as well, or at least, that's the plan. 2015-04-27T19:27:15Z ehu: so, I'll contact you when I start working on it. 2015-04-27T19:27:20Z Xach: thanks 2015-04-27T19:27:33Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:27:35Z pt1_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-27T19:27:53Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:28:32Z ehu: but 25 is pretty low: there are between 300 and 600 darcs repositories on c-l.net. 2015-04-27T19:28:51Z ehu: (depends on how I count if I get 300 or over 600) 2015-04-27T19:29:46Z Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147574 has the list 2015-04-27T19:30:07Z ehu: ah. thanks. I'll keep that so I can inform you effectively. 2015-04-27T19:31:01Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:31:04Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T19:31:34Z Xach: oops, there are a couple more 2015-04-27T19:32:36Z Xach: annotated 2015-04-27T19:33:08Z ehu: thanks. 2015-04-27T19:33:12Z ehu: grabbing the list. 2015-04-27T19:33:50Z paines joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:33:56Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-27T19:34:15Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:34:34Z pt1 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-04-27T19:34:56Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:38:59Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:43:02Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:44:20Z trinque: hopefully the final newb question: how do I turn off this profiling output coming out of sbcl? 2015-04-27T19:44:26Z trinque: I don't think I turned on a profiler 2015-04-27T19:44:40Z Xach: trinque: what does the output look like? 2015-04-27T19:45:16Z trinque: Xach: http://dpaste.com/2K4QQP7 2015-04-27T19:45:22Z trinque: and so on 2015-04-27T19:45:39Z Bicyclidine: are you using the "time" macro? 2015-04-27T19:45:45Z dlowe: looks like you're calling time somewhere 2015-04-27T19:45:45Z Xach: trinque: that is the output of TIME. 2015-04-27T19:46:30Z Xach: weird to see it without wanting to. it's not often stuck into an application or library. 2015-04-27T19:46:31Z zaltekk left #lisp 2015-04-27T19:46:39Z Xach: more of an interactive-only tool 2015-04-27T19:47:22Z trinque: ah I'm assigning "time" in a let elsewhere, and have bad code in an if statement which is calling that time macro 2015-04-27T19:48:09Z oofoe quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-27T19:49:21Z jfuller joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:49:52Z Xach: phew! 2015-04-27T19:50:11Z dlowe: one of the more unfortunately names used by CL 2015-04-27T19:50:17Z dlowe: *unfortunate 2015-04-27T19:50:35Z dxtr joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:50:51Z dxtr quit (Changing host) 2015-04-27T19:50:51Z dxtr joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:51:17Z [6502] joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:51:53Z Xach: you can just use the traditional "t" instead 2015-04-27T19:52:13Z [6502]: Hello... why is mapcar just stopping on the shorter list instead of raising an error if the lists for the arguments are not of the same length? 2015-04-27T19:52:19Z Shinmera: Why time when you can benchmark https://github.com/Shinmera/trivial-benchmark 2015-04-27T19:52:25Z Bicyclidine: Xach: you can't, it's a constant variable :( 2015-04-27T19:52:31Z Bicyclidine: [6502]: because that is what it's defined to do 2015-04-27T19:52:35Z nyef: [6502]: So that you can use an infinitely-long list as one of the arguments. 2015-04-27T19:53:19Z Bicyclidine: mapcar isn't defined to work on infinitely long lists, though it usually does if it doesn't try to take lengths first 2015-04-27T19:54:17Z gniourf_gniourf joined #lisp 2015-04-27T19:54:18Z rhllor quit (Quit: rhllor) 2015-04-27T19:55:31Z [6502]: nyef: indeed an infinite list is not a "proper list"... 2015-04-27T19:57:42Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-27T19:59:52Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-27T20:02:49Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-27T20:04:11Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-04-27T20:04:18Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-27T20:05:01Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-27T20:05:14Z paines quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-27T20:06:20Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-04-27T20:07:01Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-27T20:07:03Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-27T20:07:04Z badkins quit 2015-04-27T20:07:34Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-27T20:07:59Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T20:10:42Z sunwukong` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T20:12:25Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-27T20:14:54Z ggole quit 2015-04-27T20:15:03Z dickle is now known as dkcl 2015-04-27T20:16:29Z pt1_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-27T20:16:51Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T20:17:03Z pt1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-27T20:17:20Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T20:18:11Z eazar001_cloud joined #lisp 2015-04-27T20:18:33Z roang quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T20:18:58Z roang joined #lisp 2015-04-27T20:19:44Z BlueRavenGT quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T20:23:03Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T20:23:35Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T20:27:01Z roang quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T20:29:23Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T20:29:26Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T20:29:35Z pjb: Actually, using a circular list with mapcar is not conforming. 2015-04-27T20:30:16Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T20:30:56Z {[]}grant joined #lisp 2015-04-27T20:32:23Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-27T20:33:53Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T20:34:09Z lifenoodles_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-27T20:34:10Z setheus joined #lisp 2015-04-27T20:34:35Z oleo is now known as Guest13460 2015-04-27T20:34:52Z yukawa21 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T20:35:49Z Guest13460 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-27T20:37:04Z lifenoodles joined #lisp 2015-04-27T20:38:02Z alama quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-04-27T20:40:02Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2015-04-27T20:49:45Z yukawa21 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-27T20:50:01Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-27T20:50:30Z {[]}grant quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-27T20:52:01Z killmaster quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-27T20:52:39Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-04-27T20:53:08Z killmaster joined #lisp 2015-04-27T20:56:13Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-27T20:59:00Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-27T20:59:28Z zadrot|ebaniy joined #lisp 2015-04-27T21:01:26Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-04-27T21:02:13Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T21:03:34Z zadrot_ebaniy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-27T21:06:13Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-27T21:06:55Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-04-27T21:07:31Z c74d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T21:09:28Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-04-27T21:10:19Z oleo_ quit (Changing host) 2015-04-27T21:10:19Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-04-27T21:10:32Z oleo_ is now known as oleo 2015-04-27T21:11:06Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-04-27T21:11:18Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T21:15:18Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-27T21:18:29Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-27T21:20:29Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-27T21:23:13Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-04-27T21:24:14Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-04-27T21:26:13Z didi joined #lisp 2015-04-27T21:26:14Z rk[1]_ is now known as rk[1] 2015-04-27T21:30:26Z didi: Is it possible to construct a LOOP which has two `for' phrases and the second one has a full execution for every first step ? e.g. (loop for x to 1 and y to 1 collect (list x y)) => ((0 0) (1 1)) but I want ((0 0) (0 1) (1 0) (1 1)). 2015-04-27T21:30:44Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-27T21:31:02Z ehu: didi: no, you need to nest 2 loops 2015-04-27T21:31:11Z didi: ehu: I see. Thank you. 2015-04-27T21:32:32Z pjb: didi: you can use rloop instead. 2015-04-27T21:32:59Z didi: pjb: Tell me about it. 2015-04-27T21:33:03Z pjb: (defmacro rloop (clauses &rest body) (if (null clauses) `(progn ,@body) `(loop ,@(car clauses) do (rloop ,(cdr clauses) ,@body)))) 2015-04-27T21:33:33Z didi: pjb: Cool. 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2015-04-28T02:03:18Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-04-28T02:03:31Z gambyte joined #lisp 2015-04-28T02:05:29Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T02:06:49Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-04-28T02:07:15Z rtoym joined #lisp 2015-04-28T02:08:09Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-04-28T02:08:43Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-04-28T02:08:43Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-04-28T02:08:54Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T02:11:32Z theseb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T02:12:30Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-04-28T02:12:48Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-28T02:13:09Z drmeister: Hi beach 2015-04-28T02:13:38Z akkad: hi beach! 2015-04-28T02:13:54Z drmeister: Hey Xach - did Erik enjoy minecraft yesterday? 2015-04-28T02:16:56Z beach: drmeister: How are things going with respect to cleaning up the Clasp code? 2015-04-28T02:18:33Z drmeister: I've got a nice way of expressing list traversals. List_sp foo; for ( auto c : foo ) { /* c is every CONS in the list foo */ } 2015-04-28T02:19:36Z beach: I guess I don't know that syntax. 2015-04-28T02:19:39Z drmeister: I previously allowed Cons_sp to point to NIL. Now that NIL is a symbol I can't allow that. So I created a List_sp pointer and I'm converting places where I used Cons_sp variables to List_sp uses. 2015-04-28T02:20:11Z drmeister: It's shiny, new C++. It means "do whatever the heck you have to do to iterate over the container that is in foo". 2015-04-28T02:21:33Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-04-28T02:21:45Z drmeister: It's a new short hand for the loop: for ( List_sp::iterator it = foo.begin(); it != foo.end(); ++it ) { Cons_sp c(*it); ... } 2015-04-28T02:21:58Z drmeister: It's all C++ nonsense. 2015-04-28T02:23:34Z legomenon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T02:23:45Z beach: It certainly hides some of the ugliness. 2015-04-28T02:24:01Z drmeister: But it will provide a simple, consistent syntax for traversing lists 2015-04-28T02:24:02Z drmeister: Yes 2015-04-28T02:24:43Z beach: And is it fast? 2015-04-28T02:26:14Z gambyte quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-28T02:26:22Z badkins quit 2015-04-28T02:26:50Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-28T02:26:59Z gbr_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T02:28:23Z drmeister: I haven't gotten anything running yet. 2015-04-28T02:28:33Z drmeister: This broke everything. 2015-04-28T02:28:51Z didi left #lisp 2015-04-28T02:29:48Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T02:30:15Z beach: I mean, is IT going to be the CONS cell itself? 2015-04-28T02:30:28Z beach: (or NIL) 2015-04-28T02:30:34Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T02:31:00Z beach: I guess it doesn't matter much. 2015-04-28T02:31:45Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-04-28T02:31:46Z Zhivago: drmeister: Nifty. 2015-04-28T02:31:58Z juiko quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T02:32:56Z drmeister: No, "it" is a C++ iterator. If I use: for ( auto c : foo ) { ... } then c is the CONS cell. 2015-04-28T02:33:28Z drmeister: Because of that I prefer the: for ( auto c : foo ) { ... } syntax. 2015-04-28T02:33:52Z devll joined #lisp 2015-04-28T02:34:52Z drmeister: It's called a "range-based for loop", it's only been around since C++11. 2015-04-28T02:36:52Z drmeister: I wish I'd clued into it sooner - although it required some pretty hairy coding to get the iterator to work. 2015-04-28T02:37:03Z drmeister: I can convert this old loop: for ( Cons_sp uc = use_packages; uc.notnilp(); uc=cCdr(uc) ) { ... } 2015-04-28T02:37:18Z drmeister: to: for ( auto uc : use_packages ) { ... } 2015-04-28T02:37:23Z drmeister: The body remains the same. 2015-04-28T02:37:29Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-28T02:37:42Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-04-28T02:38:08Z michael_lee joined #lisp 2015-04-28T02:38:48Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T02:40:05Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T02:40:46Z michael_lee quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-28T02:41:18Z beach: It is definitely a great improvement in terms of maintainability. 2015-04-28T02:41:33Z michael_lee joined #lisp 2015-04-28T02:42:52Z devll quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-28T02:42:52Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-28T02:43:00Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-04-28T02:44:17Z beach: drmeister: Is it documented anywhere how to make some C++ code available to Clasp Common Lisp? 2015-04-28T02:44:34Z gbr_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-28T02:45:24Z drmeister: I have some demo code and I stuck pretty close to how "luabind" does things - so - sort of. 2015-04-28T02:47:24Z beach: I am trying to understand the problem that Clasp solves. 2015-04-28T02:50:45Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T02:51:34Z beach: I guess #clasp would be better for that. 2015-04-28T02:54:15Z drmeister: Haven't we been over this? C++? Common Lisp? No comprende? 2015-04-28T02:54:22Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-28T02:55:29Z drmeister: Sorry - I get by your question that you aren't convinced. 2015-04-28T02:57:18Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-04-28T02:59:47Z beach: Oh, I am convinced. 2015-04-28T03:00:04Z beach: I just don't understand why it is difficult yet. 2015-04-28T03:01:00Z beach: I get the keywords "name mangling", "RAII", etc., but I am not sure what the implications are. Ignorance on my part. 2015-04-28T03:04:02Z drmeister: I don't know either. Maybe I'm doing things a very roundabout way. 2015-04-28T03:05:00Z beach: The C++ code has to be in the form of a shared library, yes? 2015-04-28T03:05:10Z beach: Compiled by any old C++ compiler? 2015-04-28T03:10:49Z pyon is now known as faserbuendel 2015-04-28T03:12:24Z brucem: beach: and templates ... and so many other things complicate it. 2015-04-28T03:12:32Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-04-28T03:12:59Z drmeister: Yes, it has to be in the form of a shared library. 2015-04-28T03:14:00Z beach: brucem: Yes, I can make a list of mismatch aspects between C++ and Common Lisp. But that is not enough for me to understand the implications. 2015-04-28T03:15:05Z beach: drmeister: I guess we can talk about this when things calm down a bit. 2015-04-28T03:15:27Z drmeister: Yeah - I'm in a rather fragile state of mind at the moment. 2015-04-28T03:17:32Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T03:18:08Z Saigut joined #lisp 2015-04-28T03:18:35Z drmeister: It's like I'm working on some crazy kit car for half a decade and I've torn the engine apart and it's all over my shop. I'm feeling a bit despondent when someone comes along and asks "why don't you just take the bus"? 2015-04-28T03:18:49Z drmeister: And I wonder - "yeah - the bus... that sounds... nice". 2015-04-28T03:19:10Z beach: I meant no such thing by my question, though. 2015-04-28T03:19:12Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-04-28T03:20:22Z drmeister: That's ok. I'm just making light. 2015-04-28T03:20:42Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T03:20:42Z drmeister: Let's talk about something fun - how's the type inference coming along. That Nimble paper is mind blowing. 2015-04-28T03:21:03Z drmeister: Nimble type inference paper. 2015-04-28T03:21:29Z beach: I am going back one step, to the Kaplan and Ullman paper which is heavily used by Baker. 2015-04-28T03:21:52Z beach: I need to understand what to do about backward inference in Common Lisp. 2015-04-28T03:22:27Z beach: In parallel, I am defining the canonical form of type descriptors in the type inferencer. 2015-04-28T03:22:55Z Saigut_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T03:22:56Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T03:23:20Z drmeister: If I understand correctly, at every instruction you have list of every variable and some way to represent the minimum type of each variable at each instruction? 2015-04-28T03:24:00Z drmeister: Or did I make a mess of it? 2015-04-28T03:24:03Z beach: Pretty much. Both the upper and the lower type bounds need to be known for each variable both before and after each instruction. 2015-04-28T03:24:37Z Saigut quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-28T03:24:47Z drmeister: How do you represent a range for a type? 2015-04-28T03:24:48Z beach: As usual, things are complicated by the fact that I want it to work for any Common Lisp implementation. 2015-04-28T03:24:53Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2015-04-28T03:25:10Z beach: I use a sequence of intervals. 2015-04-28T03:25:45Z drmeister: Do floats require intervals? 2015-04-28T03:25:49Z beach: ... like (SINGLE-FLOAT (lower1 upper1) (lower2 upper2) ...) 2015-04-28T03:25:52Z beach: Yes. 2015-04-28T03:26:17Z beach: They won't be used much probably. 2015-04-28T03:26:41Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-04-28T03:26:49Z ehaliewicz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-28T03:27:05Z beach: But it can come in handy to know that (SQRT X) is not a complex. 2015-04-28T03:27:09Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-28T03:27:26Z beach: Same for (ASIN X). 2015-04-28T03:28:52Z Quadrescence: for a sufficiently cool compiler, it can be used for automatic algorithm selection 2015-04-28T03:29:03Z Quadrescence: that would be fantastic, maybe worth a cheap academic paper even 2015-04-28T03:29:53Z redeemed joined #lisp 2015-04-28T03:30:06Z Quadrescence: it also allows you to do things like avoid zero checking if the interval does not contain zero. that is useful to elide a whole hunk of error checking code 2015-04-28T03:30:16Z beach: Quadrescence: Have you read up on existing work in the domain? 2015-04-28T03:30:33Z Quadrescence: not any time recently 2015-04-28T03:30:48Z Quadrescence: (I know about the algorithm selection stuff to an extent because I had to implement it.) 2015-04-28T03:30:57Z beach: I see. 2015-04-28T03:31:14Z drmeister: I see - so it could elide divide by zero checking code? 2015-04-28T03:31:31Z Quadrescence: Sure, why not, if it's guaranteed to never be zero. 2015-04-28T03:32:13Z Quadrescence: it helps for those little speedy numerical kernels, if you or the compiler can prove it 2015-04-28T03:32:47Z drmeister: beach: This sounds awfully complicated - what are the chances that it doesn't work? 2015-04-28T03:33:27Z Quadrescence: If you do float interval analysis, get the rounding right! Be conservative. ;) 2015-04-28T03:33:34Z clop2: only fear holds you back 2015-04-28T03:34:15Z Quadrescence: drmeister, the chances SQRT won't screw you over? 2015-04-28T03:34:23Z beach` joined #lisp 2015-04-28T03:34:42Z beach quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-28T03:34:45Z beach` is now known as beach 2015-04-28T03:34:50Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-28T03:35:09Z drmeister: No, the chances that the entire Nimble type inference engine fails somehow. 2015-04-28T03:35:22Z Quadrescence: ah 2015-04-28T03:35:23Z drmeister: I guess the result is that you have bloated code. 2015-04-28T03:35:27Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-28T03:36:25Z beach: drmeister: What sounds complicated? 2015-04-28T03:36:47Z drmeister: The Nimble type inference engine. 2015-04-28T03:36:54Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-28T03:37:00Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T03:37:23Z beach: I don't understand your problem. The technology is documented. 2015-04-28T03:37:36Z beach: I just need to understand it. 2015-04-28T03:38:03Z beach: I also need to understand the consequences of backward inferencing in Common Lisp. 2015-04-28T03:38:17Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-04-28T03:38:20Z beach: Perhaps it means that error checks can be inserted early. 2015-04-28T03:39:24Z beach: There are several reasons that I am going back to Kaplan & Ullman. One is that they use the same intermediate representation as Cleavir does, whereas Nimble annotates source code. Another one is (as I said) that I need to understand how backward inferencing works for Common Lisp. 2015-04-28T03:39:52Z Saigut joined #lisp 2015-04-28T03:42:13Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-28T03:42:56Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-04-28T03:43:37Z Saigut_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-28T03:43:50Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T03:44:02Z theseb left #lisp 2015-04-28T03:45:40Z beach: drmeister: Or, by "the entire Nimble type inference engine fails somehow", do you mean "beach fails to understand how it works"? 2015-04-28T03:46:19Z drmeister: Great - I'm still at the "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" stage with type inference. 2015-04-28T03:46:52Z nyef: "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced." 2015-04-28T03:47:00Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-04-28T03:47:02Z beach: Heh! 2015-04-28T03:47:32Z beach: drmeister: It's just math. Lattice theory where everything is finite, basically. 2015-04-28T03:47:41Z beach: Simple stuff really. 2015-04-28T03:47:48Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T03:48:32Z beach: It is "just" a matter of getting the details right. 2015-04-28T03:48:46Z nyef: There are probably a few pathological cases that you'll run into in terms of type representation. 2015-04-28T03:49:09Z beach: I am sure that will be the case. 2015-04-28T03:49:42Z nyef: Like when some maniac writes a loop that causes some variable to take on a type roughly equivalent to "all characters with a code evenly divisible by three". 2015-04-28T03:50:14Z Saigut_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T03:50:39Z drmeister: Math - I can feel good about math. 2015-04-28T03:50:56Z Bike: i bet you can reduce type canonicalization to computing kolmogorov complexity :) 2015-04-28T03:51:03Z beach: Sure. Not only does the lattice have to be finite. Nowadays, one must also make sure it doesn't have too many elements. Or the compiler might run in finite time, but that time could be decades. 2015-04-28T03:51:18Z beach: Bike: Very likely. :) 2015-04-28T03:51:53Z beach: drmeister: OK, then read the Kaplan & Ullman paper instead of the one by Baker. 2015-04-28T03:51:55Z Saigut quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-28T03:52:01Z beach: drmeister: It will make you feel better. 2015-04-28T03:52:49Z theos: anyone up for a CL smartphone OS? 2015-04-28T03:53:24Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T03:53:29Z beach: theos: Sure: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf 2015-04-28T03:53:58Z beach: drmeister: Do you have the reference to Kaplan & Ullman? 2015-04-28T03:54:40Z beach: Bike: Minor problems like NP-completeness and undecidability have never prevented us from getting the work done. :) 2015-04-28T03:54:44Z drmeister: beach: No 2015-04-28T03:55:23Z beach: drmeister: Marc A. Kaplan and Jeffrey D. Ullman: A Scheme for the Automatic Inference of Variable Types. 2015-04-28T03:55:42Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-04-28T03:55:52Z beach: Journal of the ACM, Volume 27 No 1, January 1980, pp 128-145. 2015-04-28T04:00:28Z drmeister: Thanks. I'll grab it tomorrow at work. 2015-04-28T04:02:13Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-28T04:07:37Z fragamus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-28T04:09:33Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-28T04:11:18Z Saigut_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T04:12:21Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-28T04:14:53Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-28T04:15:17Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-28T04:15:17Z Mon_Ouie quit (Changing host) 2015-04-28T04:15:17Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-28T04:23:49Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-28T04:25:49Z alama quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-04-28T04:27:01Z Saigut joined #lisp 2015-04-28T04:27:42Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T04:29:57Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T04:29:57Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-28T04:31:25Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-28T04:32:49Z jasom: beach: is cleavir primarily focused on compilation, or is efficient interpretation also within scope? 2015-04-28T04:33:00Z Slothel joined #lisp 2015-04-28T04:33:04Z Slothel: Hey all. 2015-04-28T04:33:43Z Slothel: I realize that lisp is dynamically typed, but is there a way to enable some kind of type checking before run-time? 2015-04-28T04:34:07Z beach: jasom: I haven't really thought about interpretation. 2015-04-28T04:34:34Z beach: clhs declare 2015-04-28T04:34:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_declar.htm 2015-04-28T04:35:08Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-28T04:35:27Z beach: Slothel: Declare types, set DEBUG and SAFETY to 3, and use an implementation that checks the types. 2015-04-28T04:37:02Z beach: About backward type inference: consider the following code: (defun f (x y) (let* ((a (sqrt x)) (ignore (gg (abs a)))) (if (< a y) ...))) 2015-04-28T04:37:05Z pillton: Slothel: beach is right to give you that information, but what do you expect to happen when specifying type information? 2015-04-28T04:38:12Z beach: With backward type inference, we "know" that x must be non-negative, or else < will fail. But I think it would violate the semantics of Common Lisp not to call GG in that case. 2015-04-28T04:38:19Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-28T04:39:12Z Slothel: pillton: it's just safer, it doesn't necessarily add any functionality to my code, it's just easier to know if I'm making a mistake before I run the program 2015-04-28T04:39:30Z Slothel: pillton: Because I don't always use the REPL at all steps in coding I sometimes just write a straight text file 2015-04-28T04:39:35Z beach: However, it is clearly a win to test x before calling ABS so that ABS can be specialized to real numbers. 2015-04-28T04:42:20Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2015-04-28T04:42:58Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T04:43:14Z pillton: Slothel: Not all compilers do what you want at compile time. 2015-04-28T04:45:01Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-28T04:45:29Z pillton: clhs check-type 2015-04-28T04:45:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_check_.htm 2015-04-28T04:46:30Z pillton: Slothel: CHECK-TYPE works at all optimisation settings. 2015-04-28T04:46:51Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T04:48:15Z Qudit314159 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T04:48:26Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-28T04:49:56Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T04:50:52Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-28T04:51:11Z isaac_rks joined #lisp 2015-04-28T04:53:30Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-04-28T04:56:33Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T04:58:24Z gbr_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T05:00:32Z replcated quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T05:01:04Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-28T05:02:19Z gbr_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-28T05:02:46Z gbr_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T05:03:44Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-28T05:04:37Z sword quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T05:04:54Z sword joined #lisp 2015-04-28T05:06:24Z beach: I think I will start by implementing forward type inference only. It is sure not to violate Common Lisp semantics, and I think I can obtain the advantages of backward type inference by other means. 2015-04-28T05:08:11Z beach: For example, in the case above, by defining SQRT as (if (< x 0) (sqrt-neg x) (sqrt-non-neg x)) and inlining it, I should be able to get the same type information. 2015-04-28T05:10:08Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-04-28T05:12:16Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-28T05:15:32Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-28T05:16:07Z emaczen: jackdaniel: you there? 2015-04-28T05:16:51Z pavelpenev quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-28T05:17:03Z Denommus quit (Quit: Bye) 2015-04-28T05:19:05Z Saigut_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T05:21:25Z Saigut quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-28T05:22:02Z sunwukong` joined #lisp 2015-04-28T05:22:53Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T05:23:39Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-04-28T05:25:21Z sin` joined #lisp 2015-04-28T05:28:26Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T05:31:23Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-28T05:33:33Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-28T05:38:52Z sword quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-04-28T05:41:25Z Pastaf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T05:41:56Z gbr_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-28T05:44:54Z roang joined #lisp 2015-04-28T05:45:50Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T05:46:26Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T05:48:25Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-28T05:49:52Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-28T05:51:27Z axion: hello 2015-04-28T05:51:30Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-28T05:51:30Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-04-28T05:51:30Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-28T05:51:36Z Shinmera: Mornin' 2015-04-28T05:51:46Z axion: i have a huge problem with gc on sbcl 2015-04-28T05:51:51Z axion: i cant get to the bottom of 2015-04-28T05:52:36Z axion: everytime i run my program, dynamic space usage increases by 2x 2015-04-28T05:52:40Z beach: Hello axion. Hello Shinmera. 2015-04-28T05:52:54Z axion: if i force (sb-ext:gc :full t), it goes back to normal 2015-04-28T05:52:56Z Shinmera makes zombie noises while he reaches for his coffee 2015-04-28T05:53:01Z axion: daily i'm hitting heap exhaustions :/ 2015-04-28T05:53:13Z Shinmera: axion: What kind of program are you running? 2015-04-28T05:53:29Z axion: my work in progress game 2015-04-28T05:53:43Z roang left #lisp 2015-04-28T05:54:11Z axion: it's as if gc is NEVER being freed automatically 2015-04-28T05:54:32Z beach: axion: Are you saying that the heap becomes exhausted if and only if you don't run (SB-EXT:GC :FULL T)? 2015-04-28T05:54:39Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-04-28T05:54:47Z Shinmera: Well, that's easy to test. Just loop and create a bunch of conses. See if you run out of heap. 2015-04-28T05:54:49Z axion: beach: that is correct 2015-04-28T05:55:48Z Shinmera: My guess is more that your entire program state is being retained through a reference tree somewhere. 2015-04-28T05:55:55Z Shinmera: Or at least a large part of it 2015-04-28T05:56:13Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T05:56:25Z Shinmera: So it's only possible to free it once your program has already exited. 2015-04-28T05:56:28Z beach: axion: So if you loop and run your program followed by (sb-ext:gc :full t) every time in the loop, you never run out of space, but if you omit the (sb-ext:gc :full t), you do? 2015-04-28T05:56:34Z axion: sadly (room) on sbcl or ccl is not very informative as cmucl or clisp, and my code depends on cffi bindings that will not work with those implementations 2015-04-28T05:56:41Z axion: so i cant really get to the bottom of it :/ 2015-04-28T05:56:58Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-28T05:57:27Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-04-28T05:57:34Z beach: Shinmera: That hypothesis can't be right if a full gc fixes the problem. 2015-04-28T05:57:48Z beach: ... which is why I am asking this question. 2015-04-28T05:58:07Z Shinmera: beach: The GC doesn't necessarily trigger as soon as he quits. 2015-04-28T05:58:17Z axion: beach: i have been doing (room) everytime i start my game, and the dynamic space size grows and never decreases, until eventually a heap exhaustion. the last day or so i have been periodically doing manual (gc) calls and havent experienced the crashes, and see space usage dropping to the state of a fresh image 2015-04-28T05:58:32Z Shinmera: Hm. 2015-04-28T05:59:39Z beach: axion: OK, if you never exhaust the heap when you do the manual GC, then there must be some problem in the system itself. 2015-04-28T06:00:15Z beach: Ah, no, there is another possibility. 2015-04-28T06:00:30Z axion: i'm going to play around with ccl, and see if i get the increasing dynamic space usage 2015-04-28T06:00:34Z beach: Suppose you have a variable or a slot that contains a huge data structure. 2015-04-28T06:00:36Z axion: i have been mostly testing sbcl 2015-04-28T06:01:15Z beach: Now you do (setf variable (generate-another-huge-data-structure)) 2015-04-28T06:02:01Z axion: hmm 2015-04-28T06:02:35Z beach: Then you need room for two huge data structures. 2015-04-28T06:02:35Z beach: Whereas if you by any chance do (setf variable nil) and then (GC ..) you would recycle that memory. 2015-04-28T06:02:36Z x1n4u quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-28T06:02:38Z beach: axion: The increased dynamic space could be normal if you have a generational GC. 2015-04-28T06:02:56Z axion: i have no idea 2015-04-28T06:03:04Z Shinmera: SBCL is GENCGC on X86_64, right? 2015-04-28T06:03:07Z srcerer_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T06:03:23Z axion: i am indeed on sbcl/x86_64 2015-04-28T06:03:27Z beach: I am pretty sure SBCL uses a generational GC. 2015-04-28T06:03:47Z Shinmera: I think it uses GENCGC on most platforms and Cheney on a few. 2015-04-28T06:04:13Z beach: axion: What I am trying to say is that increased dynamic size might be unrelated to your problem. 2015-04-28T06:04:41Z axion: ok...hmm... 2015-04-28T06:04:53Z axion: it starts out about ~150mb when i run my game on a fresh image 2015-04-28T06:05:01Z axion: then 300mb, then 450mb..etc 2015-04-28T06:05:19Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-04-28T06:05:49Z srcerer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-28T06:07:09Z axion: so, where should i investigate further? 2015-04-28T06:07:14Z axion: if not the dynamic space 2015-04-28T06:07:36Z beach: axion: It is entirely possible that the system increases the size until the entire heap is used up and only then runs the full GC. 2015-04-28T06:07:53Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-28T06:07:54Z x1n4u joined #lisp 2015-04-28T06:08:38Z Shinmera: You could try restricting your dynamic space size to something like 400mb. 2015-04-28T06:08:41Z beach: axion: I would start by making sure that (loop repeat do ) fails, but (loop repeat do (sb-ext:gc :full t)) does. 2015-04-28T06:08:58Z beach: does not. 2015-04-28T06:09:26Z axion: ok 2015-04-28T06:09:45Z zadrot_ebaniy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-28T06:10:12Z beach: If that is the case, I would start suspecting a bug. 2015-04-28T06:12:24Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-04-28T06:12:38Z beach: OK, Time to get to work! 2015-04-28T06:12:40Z beach left #lisp 2015-04-28T06:13:44Z Shinmera: axion: You can also try running something like (loop (loop repeat 100000 do (make-array 1000000000000000000)) (room)) and see if it never shrinks the dynamic space down again. 2015-04-28T06:14:57Z emaczen: What exactly is #:? I can't find anything online 2015-04-28T06:15:15Z heurist joined #lisp 2015-04-28T06:15:31Z emaczen: I use it in the (in-package) forms of my .asd and package.lisp files 2015-04-28T06:15:54Z axion: Shinmera: ok thanks 2015-04-28T06:16:03Z dude joined #lisp 2015-04-28T06:16:18Z dude quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-28T06:18:01Z Shinmera: emaczen: an uninterned symbol with the symbol-name "?" 2015-04-28T06:18:23Z Shinmera: clhs #: 2015-04-28T06:18:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhe.htm 2015-04-28T06:19:02Z Shinmera: axion: Just fyi, on my machine it only triggered GC once dynamic space reached around 250mb. 2015-04-28T06:20:04Z axion: Shinmera: your example shows it growing with no sign of decreasing yet...still running 2015-04-28T06:20:20Z Shinmera: axion: Well the example should only increase very slowly, if you look at the ROOM output. 2015-04-28T06:20:43Z axion: yep, about 1mb per 3s 2015-04-28T06:21:25Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-28T06:21:30Z Shinmera: There's probably better ways to waste space, but my brain isn't up to speed yet. 2015-04-28T06:21:32Z axion: i'm at 390mb so far 2015-04-28T06:21:40Z axion: for dynamic objects 2015-04-28T06:23:13Z replcated joined #lisp 2015-04-28T06:23:16Z axion: Shinmera: ok at 402mb it dropped down to 350 2015-04-28T06:23:25Z rtoym_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T06:23:34Z rtoym quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-28T06:23:45Z rtoym_ is now known as rtoym 2015-04-28T06:24:20Z Shinmera: So it is GC-ing, just not as well as it could, I guess. For me it went from 250 to 60. 2015-04-28T06:24:34Z Shinmera: Are you running in a fresh image? 2015-04-28T06:24:48Z axion: i'm not sure. i just tried again though in a fresh image 2015-04-28T06:25:04Z p_l: modify max-bytes-between-gcs ? 2015-04-28T06:26:24Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2015-04-28T06:27:15Z axion: Shinmera: ok so in a fresh image it drops at ~120mb to 60mb 2015-04-28T06:27:32Z Shinmera: Alright, so GC is working. 2015-04-28T06:27:46Z axion: consistently 2015-04-28T06:27:51Z axion: watched it cycle 3 times 2015-04-28T06:28:19Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T06:28:44Z Shinmera: Well then. The next idea for me is that you're somehow somewhere retaining a reference to a big tree, or maybe external (FFI) resources aren't being freed. 2015-04-28T06:28:45Z axion: so the issue lies in my code somewhere, but i have no way to test my code on clisp or cmucl 2015-04-28T06:28:54Z axion: where (room) is informative 2015-04-28T06:29:21Z Shinmera: Since you're working with a game engine and all, are you sure you're freeing external resources properly? 2015-04-28T06:29:41Z axion: i'm not sure. i do rely on 3 cffi libs though 2015-04-28T06:30:01Z Shinmera: The only times I ever managed to bust SBCL's space is when I didn't have my finaliser scheme in Parasol yet and didn't properly free Qt instances. 2015-04-28T06:30:23Z axion: those being cl-sdl2, cl-opengl, and cl-cairo2 2015-04-28T06:30:39Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-28T06:30:45Z Shinmera: Right, so you might be doing some texture stuff somewhere that isn't freed right. 2015-04-28T06:31:05Z axion: yeah and no clue if i should be looking in my code or dependencies 2015-04-28T06:31:18Z axion: i cant seem to find anything in my code, though i could be wrong 2015-04-28T06:31:18Z Shinmera: Always start with your own code. 2015-04-28T06:33:46Z Shinmera: Since, as you say, the space doesn't just keep growing while running the game, you're probably not deallocating resources of remaining objects while quitting the game. 2015-04-28T06:34:55Z axion: i'm not sure what i'm missing. i set the only special var to nil 2015-04-28T06:35:04Z axion: i dont see how any state outside of cffi could be left intact 2015-04-28T06:35:28Z Shinmera: That's why I'm saying, see if you're freeing FFI objects properly. 2015-04-28T06:35:59Z axion: i'm not very familiar with C, and just use the included helper wrapper functions 2015-04-28T06:36:14Z axion: no cffi directly 2015-04-28T06:36:16Z Shinmera: Then see the documentation of the libraries you're using. 2015-04-28T06:36:25Z axion: the author wrote these functions for me :) 2015-04-28T06:36:30Z Shinmera: They should at least mention something about freeing the resources. 2015-04-28T06:37:06Z Shinmera: And, well, without being able to see the source of your game, I can't tell you much more than that. 2015-04-28T06:37:47Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-28T06:37:52Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-28T06:38:24Z axion: the source is on github, but its rather huge and split into 2 repositories 2015-04-28T06:38:37Z axion: i wouldnt wish that torture on anyone 2015-04-28T06:38:55Z Shinmera: Heh. 2015-04-28T06:39:08Z Shinmera: Well, either way, the GC won't touch FFI objects. You have to free them manually somehow. 2015-04-28T06:39:17Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-28T06:39:41Z axion: ok i'll do some more investigating 2015-04-28T06:40:13Z axion: come to think of it, i dont remember this ever occuring prior to replacing png-read (native lisp) with cl-cairo (cffi) 2015-04-28T06:40:28Z axion: but i do infact call the destroy method which frees the resources 2015-04-28T06:40:43Z Shinmera: Even on objects that live until the game ends? 2015-04-28T06:41:03Z gniourf_gniourf quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-04-28T06:41:17Z axion: textures are only read with cffi once at load time, sent to gpu, then freed 2015-04-28T06:41:34Z Shinmera: I see. 2015-04-28T06:41:54Z Shinmera: What happens if you continuously allocate a cairo texture and free it again? 2015-04-28T06:42:20Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-28T06:44:19Z axion: i'll have to invesitgate cairo some more. tbh i don't like it at all. too many shared library dependencies when i build for windows. i only switched from png-read because native lisp png reading is very slow for huge textures. (~1.5s per textures compared to ~0.03s with cairo) 2015-04-28T06:44:29Z Brozo quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-04-28T06:47:32Z isaac_rks quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-28T06:48:27Z Shinmera: Write your own, fast, png-reader :) 2015-04-28T06:49:03Z axion: i have tried...the bottleneck is zlib decompresion 2015-04-28T06:49:21Z axion: plus i'd rather focus on important things, like finishing this game in a lifetime 2015-04-28T06:49:32Z Shinmera: A noble goal. 2015-04-28T06:49:35Z axion: already been 6 months of many hours per day 2015-04-28T06:51:07Z Shinmera doesn't even want to think about how many hours and days he spent on Radiance and related projects 2015-04-28T06:52:16Z axion: ok well i limited it down to NOT my core engine 2015-04-28T06:52:28Z axion: now to try everything except textures 2015-04-28T06:52:56Z cwej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-28T06:58:44Z axion: hmmm, i think it's a few things. i'm noticing a small memory leak in my asset loading. 2015-04-28T06:59:12Z axion: external lisp files being (read) are not being completely freed each time i start the game 2015-04-28T06:59:22Z Fare: any windows lisper around? 2015-04-28T06:59:24Z axion: slow increase without textures, but not as much for sure 2015-04-28T07:00:49Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T07:01:02Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T07:01:56Z axion: Fare: my only experience is when i deploy my game with CCL/windows to a friend to test. 2015-04-28T07:02:16Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-04-28T07:04:56Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-28T07:05:57Z theos: minion: tell?? 2015-04-28T07:05:59Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``tell''. 2015-04-28T07:06:15Z tuturto: Fare: I poke lisp now and then on windows 2015-04-28T07:09:01Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-28T07:13:27Z Fare: tuturto: I'm trying to fix ASDF configuration, and am wondering whether to bother with doing things "like windows applications do", or whether to declare it braindead and try to go for "do it like Unix" 2015-04-28T07:14:26Z Bike: like windows being a registry file, and like unix an eventually turing complete scripting language? 2015-04-28T07:14:40Z Fare: Windows uses ${LOCALAPPDATA}/vendor/application/Cache/foo where Unix would use ~/.cache/vendor/application/foo for instance 2015-04-28T07:16:10Z H4ns: Fare: ~/.cache is an application configuration directory? 2015-04-28T07:16:22Z H4ns: Fare: the name implies that it would be a cache 2015-04-28T07:16:36Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T07:16:44Z H4ns: Fare: ah, never mind, i overlooked the Cache in the windows example path 2015-04-28T07:18:28Z tuturto: Fare: I wouldn't bother trying to get it work like other windows applications 2015-04-28T07:18:31Z tuturto: but that's just me 2015-04-28T07:20:39Z theos: whats the command to give a msg to someone who is not here? 2015-04-28T07:24:59Z Fare: for configuration it would be ~/.config/common-lisp/foo vs $LOCALAPPDATA/common-lisp/config/foo 2015-04-28T07:25:22Z Fare: or say F U windows, and just use $LOCALAPPDATA/config/common-lisp/foo 2015-04-28T07:25:23Z H4ns: Fare: i think it makes sense to follow that scheme if it is already established 2015-04-28T07:25:54Z Fare: 1) it's a shitty scheme, and 2) it means more complexity in code pathways in ASDF 2015-04-28T07:26:15Z H4ns: Fare: does it make a difference to asdf's users? 2015-04-28T07:26:26Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-04-28T07:26:27Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-28T07:26:36Z H4ns: Fare: i mean, $LOCALAPPDATA is a directory that people rarely look into, right? 2015-04-28T07:26:40Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-28T07:26:58Z H4ns: Fare: as long as you don't put stuff in, say, C:\ or $HOME, you should be not offending them 2015-04-28T07:27:24Z Fare: just like ~/.config and ~/.cache weren't standardized yet in 2010 when ASDF started using it (I dunno if my mail to debian had a role in the later standard), I think it's good to innovate on Windows, too 2015-04-28T07:27:38Z Fare: yes, people aren't supposed to look there 2015-04-28T07:27:57Z H4ns: Fare: it is rather bold to say that some debian convention is "unix standard", but who am i to judge? :D 2015-04-28T07:28:19Z Guest___ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T07:28:47Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-28T07:30:19Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-04-28T07:30:25Z sin` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T07:30:38Z jackdaniel: Fare: quick question - if I want to define dummy component in ECL (namely uffi), it is sufficient to do (asdf:defsystem uffi :name "uffi") ? 2015-04-28T07:30:41Z Fare: H4ns: it's not just debian. Actually, it's been standardized here in 2010: http://standards.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/basedir-spec-latest.html 2015-04-28T07:31:41Z H4ns: Fare: it would be nice to find a similar document for windows 2015-04-28T07:31:44Z Fare: I started pushing for ~/.cache in 2005 — I can't claim paternity of the standard, but certainly anteriority. 2015-04-28T07:31:47Z H4ns: Fare: i've been unable to, though. 2015-04-28T07:31:51Z Fare: there isn't 2015-04-28T07:32:05Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-28T07:32:15Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-04-28T07:32:25Z H4ns: Fare: well: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-8/what-appdata-folder 2015-04-28T07:32:32Z Fare: there are documents that describe what applications such as chrome do... LOCALAPPDATA/vendor/app/Cache/foo 2015-04-28T07:33:16Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-28T07:33:21Z H4ns: Fare: i would use $LOCALAPPDATA/asdf/ or $LOCALAPPDATA/common-lisp/ as prefix. 2015-04-28T07:33:23Z Fare: no :name, just an empty (defsystem my-uffi) 2015-04-28T07:33:36Z H4ns: Fare: btw, i thought you had abandoned asdf maintenance? 2015-04-28T07:33:44Z Fare: H4ns: I was thinking about that for common-lisp data 2015-04-28T07:33:55Z Fare: but $LOCALAPPDATA/config/common-lisp/ for the configuration 2015-04-28T07:33:59Z jackdaniel: ok, thanks (no my-uffi, but uffi - ecl has compatible uffi, but systems depending on it doesn't see component) 2015-04-28T07:34:16Z Fare: inciting people to use $LOCALAPPDATA/config just like ~/.config/ under Unix. 2015-04-28T07:34:30Z Fare: jackdaniel: OK 2015-04-28T07:34:37Z H4ns: Fare: what people is it you're talking about, and why should they not use a vendor prefix? 2015-04-28T07:34:56Z Fare: anyone porting Unix applications 2015-04-28T07:35:23Z Fare: or understanding that the unix way of sharing a tree for configuration separate from those for data files is superior 2015-04-28T07:35:37Z Fare: because it makes backup, audit, access rights, etc., easier to manage. 2015-04-28T07:36:09Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-04-28T07:36:13Z Fare: just like having a separate hierarchy for cache rather than one per application 2015-04-28T07:36:32Z H4ns: Fare: that is not how microsoft sees the world, and it is not how users expect things to be. 2015-04-28T07:36:47Z Fare: but end-users won't see it. 2015-04-28T07:36:59Z H4ns: Fare: as a user, if the program does not come with a proper deinstaller or if i want to remove all traces of it, i go by vendor first. 2015-04-28T07:37:05Z Fare: only developers, and if they are lispers, they are likely porting from Unix in this case. 2015-04-28T07:37:24Z H4ns: Fare: hiding things under "config" would not be very helpful in that thinking. 2015-04-28T07:37:45Z Fare: well, if the app had a deinstaller, it could go under config/app 2015-04-28T07:37:56Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-04-28T07:38:01Z H4ns: Fare: no matter how you put it, you'll always piss off people who actually know windows if you try to come up with "better ways" from a unix angle. 2015-04-28T07:38:20Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-28T07:38:21Z Fare: and if it's random cl libraries, hopefully their configuration won't take too much space under LOCALAPPDATA/config/common-lisp/ 2015-04-28T07:38:55Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T07:39:03Z Fare: H4ns: yes. On the other hand, maybe I pissed off some Unix people when I used ~/.cache/ in 2005, but I was vindicated when that became a standard in 2010. 2015-04-28T07:39:12Z Slothel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T07:39:22Z H4ns: *shrug* 2015-04-28T07:40:14Z Fare: indeed. My bet is not enough people care, and not having to deal with the complexity on windows, and instead providing a same simple interface on Unix and Windows is a net win. 2015-04-28T07:40:45Z Fare: I did implement the Windows strategy, and rpgoldman convinced me that it was overkill, so I'm reverting it now. 2015-04-28T07:41:09Z Fare: but yes, thank you for your feedback, it matters. 2015-04-28T07:41:59Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-28T07:42:07Z Fare: H4ns: I've mostly abandoned ASDF, except that (1) I have a few branches still waiting to be merged, (2) I'm still fixing bugs in UIOP (and this started as a bug fix for UIOP) 2015-04-28T07:42:12Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-28T07:44:03Z Fare: but no, I won't be developing new features for ASDF any time soon, beyond those branches (one to replace the shell scripting test infrastructure with a lisp scripting thing, one for asdf to manage the *readtable* and other variables, so you can safely change the syntax and invoke asdf) 2015-04-28T07:44:18Z x1n4u quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T07:44:56Z splittist: My bet is that more people use the underspecified Windows approach than use the 'specified' Debian/FreeDesktop approach. And that one way to ensure that most porting goes unix->windows rather than vice versa is to treat Windows as a second class citizen. 2015-04-28T07:46:09Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-04-28T07:46:14Z Fare: If I go the Windows way, I'll piss off the people who port from Unix and now have to do things differently. I have to weigh down the "going native" vs the "doing things better" and the "pleasing my actual crowd, that's coming from Unix". I've been switching sides, but I think I'll go back to "Unix way". 2015-04-28T07:47:41Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-28T07:49:35Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-04-28T07:49:43Z Saigut_: when I use (setf x 1) to introduce the new variable x, I find x is a global variabla but not a dynamic variable 2015-04-28T07:49:44Z splittist: So I'll now have a legacy common-lisp/cache/ directory and a 'new' cache/common-lisp/ directory when ASDF updates? 2015-04-28T07:49:58Z Shinmera: You could always go the sure-fire way and piss everyone off by putting things onto the Desktop :) 2015-04-28T07:51:44Z Fare: splittist, if this change makes it, yes 2015-04-28T07:51:49Z Fare: splittist, do you care? 2015-04-28T07:52:08Z Fare: I've been struggling to find any windows user who cares either way. 2015-04-28T07:52:16Z Fare: which encouraged me to go my way. 2015-04-28T07:52:21Z alama joined #lisp 2015-04-28T07:52:50Z splittist: Fare: I'm thinking (: 2015-04-28T07:53:27Z H4ns: Fare: lisphug may be a good place to ask for opions, if you haven't asked there already 2015-04-28T07:53:33Z Fare: splittist, more importantly, do you actually have a LOCALDATAAPP/common-lisp/config/ 2015-04-28T07:53:41Z Fare: H4ns: I will, thanks 2015-04-28T07:53:47Z Shinmera thinks that there's so many different ways in which things are done on windows that another one won't matter by now. 2015-04-28T07:55:15Z splittist: Fare: no. just .../cache 2015-04-28T07:55:57Z Fare: what do you mean .../ ? 2015-04-28T07:56:37Z splittist: Fare: c:/Users/username/AppData/Local/ 2015-04-28T07:57:10Z splittist: aka %LOCALAPPDATA% 2015-04-28T07:58:52Z Fare: you don't want a LOCALAPPDATA/cache/common-lisp/ and want to keep a LOCALAPPDATA/common-lisp/cache/ ? 2015-04-28T07:59:33Z splittist: Fare: in that directory are directories such as Adobe, Cisco, Google, Microsoft, Skype. But also Packages and Programs. And Temp. 2015-04-28T08:00:09Z Fare: Do you think Temp should replace Cache or host it? 2015-04-28T08:00:29Z splittist: Fare: many of these directories have - either at the next level, or more deeply nested - a Cache or Caches directory. 2015-04-28T08:00:42Z Fare: if there are "Packages" and "Programs" in there already, a "Cache" won't be so alien. 2015-04-28T08:01:24Z Fare: yes, I know many have a Cache under their directory... just like firefox & al used to have their cache under their ~/.mozilla/... instead of under ~/.cache/ 2015-04-28T08:02:17Z Slothel joined #lisp 2015-04-28T08:02:36Z Fare: do you have asdf config files on Windows? 2015-04-28T08:03:18Z splittist: Fare: I don't think it should live under Temp. I agree Cache (capitalised) would not look alien. But it would also not be an obvious candidate for nuking when trying to remove something created by a lisp app. 2015-04-28T08:04:20Z Fare: well, if it's a Lisp app, where would you look? Especially a lisp library that doesn't necessarily know which app(s) it is or isn't being used as part of? 2015-04-28T08:04:27Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T08:04:43Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-28T08:05:34Z Fare: so should I use %localappdata%/Configuration instead of %localappdata%/config/ ? 2015-04-28T08:06:14Z H4ns: %localappdata%/CommonLisp/Configuration or %localappdata%/ASDF/Configuration 2015-04-28T08:07:45Z splittist: H4ns: I like it. 2015-04-28T08:08:18Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T08:11:29Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-28T08:13:24Z Saigut_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-28T08:13:47Z Saigut joined #lisp 2015-04-28T08:17:13Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-28T08:17:26Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-28T08:17:59Z bipt quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-28T08:19:13Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-04-28T08:21:16Z larion joined #lisp 2015-04-28T08:21:51Z Colleen_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T08:22:45Z jocuman quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-28T08:22:48Z ``Erik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T08:22:51Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-28T08:23:04Z ``Erik joined #lisp 2015-04-28T08:23:24Z echo-are` joined #lisp 2015-04-28T08:23:52Z Guest___ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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You've received mail for the clasp mailing lists to that extent. this should be the first and last time you receive those mails. 2015-04-28T09:57:38Z marsjaninzmarsa joined #lisp 2015-04-28T09:58:02Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T10:00:59Z bipt joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:01:18Z Saigut_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:01:52Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:02:35Z legomenon joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:04:06Z Saigut quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-28T10:06:32Z michael_lee quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-04-28T10:06:54Z knobo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T10:07:57Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:08:29Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:08:40Z Saigut joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:11:31Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:11:55Z ehu1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T10:12:10Z Saigut_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-28T10:13:17Z BitPuffin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T10:13:20Z oskar` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T10:13:54Z oskar` joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:17:14Z kephra is now known as kraehe 2015-04-28T10:19:24Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-28T10:20:00Z oskar` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T10:20:27Z oskar` joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:21:47Z isak- joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:22:01Z isak- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T10:23:42Z oskar` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T10:23:58Z EuAndreh joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:24:02Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:24:05Z oskar` joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:24:13Z Colleen quit (Quit: See you, space cowboy...) 2015-04-28T10:24:29Z Colleen_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:24:35Z Colleen_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T10:24:46Z Colleen_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:26:26Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-28T10:28:29Z sunwukong` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T10:29:10Z sunwukong` joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:30:19Z kraehe_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:30:47Z kraehe_ is now known as kephra 2015-04-28T10:32:31Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:32:45Z minion quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-28T10:32:46Z smokeink: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147597 2015-04-28T10:33:30Z minion joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:33:31Z kraehe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T10:33:42Z smokeink: when i try to expand the macro it gives The variable A is unbound. Is there any way to make it work by having the 'let bindings' specified in the 'body' ? 2015-04-28T10:34:13Z kephra is now known as kraehe 2015-04-28T10:34:18Z s1n4 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T10:35:27Z jdz: smokeink: that is the 'a' in there supposed to refer to? 2015-04-28T10:35:39Z jdz: smokeink: and your LET bindings look fishy 2015-04-28T10:35:57Z jdz: smokeink: maybe you meant (let ((a (car body))) a) ? 2015-04-28T10:36:08Z jackdaniel: there is no backquote 2015-04-28T10:36:20Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:36:20Z jdz: well, backquote is not strictly necessary 2015-04-28T10:36:49Z jackdaniel: but in this occasion, to use let 2015-04-28T10:36:50Z jackdaniel: it is 2015-04-28T10:36:56Z jdz: no 2015-04-28T10:36:56Z knobo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T10:37:05Z jdz: a macro is a function 2015-04-28T10:37:06Z EuAndreh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T10:37:15Z EuAndreh joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:37:18Z jdz: it can has code in the body, you know 2015-04-28T10:37:30Z jackdaniel: yes, but he want's to put into let binding result of evaluation of one of arguments 2015-04-28T10:37:44Z jdz: we're not sure what he wants 2015-04-28T10:37:46Z jackdaniel: instead of° 2015-04-28T10:37:47Z jdz: well, at least me 2015-04-28T10:38:00Z kraehe is now known as kephra 2015-04-28T10:38:13Z jdz: i'm not even sure smokeink is a male 2015-04-28T10:38:13Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:38:26Z jdz: not that i care 2015-04-28T10:39:33Z jackdaniel: we're not even sure, that outer world exist, but assuming most obvious (maybe wrong) answers, I think he wanted to write http://paste.lisp.org/display/147597#1 2015-04-28T10:39:56Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-28T10:40:40Z jdz: that is a plausible guess 2015-04-28T10:40:40Z oskar` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T10:41:10Z oskar` joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:42:09Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:42:26Z tsumetai joined #lisp 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marsjaninzmarsa` joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:51:29Z Saigut quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-28T10:52:01Z smokeink: im back. yes i meant something similar (as effect) to jackdanie's version, but without the need of gensyms 2015-04-28T10:52:40Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-28T10:52:52Z jdz: smokeink: are you sure you want a macro, or are you just playing around? 2015-04-28T10:53:47Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T10:54:44Z Guest50084 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-28T10:56:08Z smokeink: look here http://paste.lisp.org/display/147600 2015-04-28T10:56:49Z marsjaninzmarsa` is now known as marsjaninzmarsa 2015-04-28T10:56:51Z smokeink: i have this macro that generates datastore-find- methods 2015-04-28T10:57:49Z smokeink: and i want to make it more general. as it is now, the body of the methods is 'hardcoded' in the macro.. i'm trying to make a more general macro that would work with any body code 2015-04-28T10:59:23Z Fare joined #lisp 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extract first arg from body, just make additional argument before &rest 2015-04-28T11:59:02Z constantinexvi joined #lisp 2015-04-28T11:59:41Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T12:00:24Z smokeink: nice 2015-04-28T12:00:39Z keen__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T12:00:39Z Ven quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-04-28T12:01:03Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T12:01:15Z Saigut quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-28T12:01:47Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T12:02:00Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-28T12:02:02Z Jesin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T12:02:34Z keen_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T12:03:47Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T12:09:24Z redeemed quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-28T12:09:31Z EuAndreh joined #lisp 2015-04-28T12:11:13Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-28T12:13:13Z alama quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-04-28T12:16:34Z 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2015-04-28T13:04:45Z akersof: probably here? :) lisp coders are really wise and smart 2015-04-28T13:05:16Z pranavrc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T13:05:27Z _main_ is now known as __main__ 2015-04-28T13:05:34Z jackdaniel: akersof: ##parsers 2015-04-28T13:06:32Z akersof: jackdaniel, damn kind of chan exists :) thanks a lot 2015-04-28T13:06:44Z scoofy_: akersof: a bit silent at times, so be patient 2015-04-28T13:07:20Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:08:10Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:09:51Z normanrichards quit 2015-04-28T13:10:53Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:11:43Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:12:08Z EvW quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T13:13:24Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:13:53Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:14:16Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:14:20Z TristamWrk joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:14:20Z TristamWrk quit (Changing host) 2015-04-28T13:14:20Z TristamWrk joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:16:53Z Saigut quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T13:17:14Z Saigut joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:18:15Z Jaskologist quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T13:18:30Z Jaskologist joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:19:28Z XachFu quit 2015-04-28T13:20:07Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:20:11Z Saigut_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:20:32Z XachX joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:22:01Z Saigut quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-28T13:22:53Z zeroish joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:23:21Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:23:55Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-04-28T13:23:55Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:25:15Z pavelpenev quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-28T13:25:38Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-28T13:25:38Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:25:43Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T13:26:46Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:28:12Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:28:36Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T13:29:42Z smokeink: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147603 what's a better way of doing it? is that 'eval' bad ? 2015-04-28T13:30:01Z pavelpenev quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-28T13:30:20Z capitaomorte` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-28T13:30:24Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:31:04Z kbtr quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-28T13:31:14Z dlowe: smokeink: it's bad, unnecessary, and broken as it is 2015-04-28T13:32:21Z Xach: smokeink: instead of expanding into code that is eval'd, expand directly into the code. 2015-04-28T13:32:34Z dlowe: I was getting to that. 2015-04-28T13:32:46Z Xach: too slow, gramps 2015-04-28T13:33:01Z kbtr joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:33:08Z dlowe: well, I was looking at his code, and he uses backquote expansion to produce a form that should probably be a macro itself 2015-04-28T13:33:35Z capitaomorte joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:33:45Z dlowe: but I'm not entirely sure what the output is intended to do 2015-04-28T13:34:26Z dlowe: I can't help but think there's an easier way to do it, though. 2015-04-28T13:34:41Z smokeink: the output defines two methods that do the same thing : a postgres query to find a row by login_name. the two methods work for two different tables 2015-04-28T13:34:46Z Saigut joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:35:14Z Odin- quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-28T13:35:21Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:35:28Z dlowe: so the only difference is the table name? 2015-04-28T13:35:51Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:36:09Z smokeink: yes. and because the table name is different the name of the method that acts upon the table must be different 2015-04-28T13:36:29Z dlowe: then the table name should be the only parameter to the macro 2015-04-28T13:37:06Z dlowe: but that's not necessarily true. You could have the table name be a parameter to the method, or you could specialize the method on the table name 2015-04-28T13:37:21Z smokeink: also the parameters to the method are named differently .. for the method datastore-find-admin , the parameter is adminname for datastore-find-provider the param is paramname 2015-04-28T13:37:27Z smokeink: *providername 2015-04-28T13:37:55Z dlowe: (defmethod datastore-find ((datastore pg-datastore) (table-name (eql 'admin))) ...) 2015-04-28T13:38:06Z Saigut_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-28T13:38:31Z dlowe: anyway, my point is that your macro should only have a parameter for the things you want to be different. Everything else should be specified in the macro. 2015-04-28T13:39:43Z dlowe: otherwise you're just passing boilerplate 2015-04-28T13:43:35Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:44:42Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T13:47:18Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:47:19Z cadadar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T13:47:28Z splittist: smokeink: why are these methods? 2015-04-28T13:48:11Z drmeister: Hello everyone 2015-04-28T13:48:33Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:48:48Z drmeister: ehu: I got it. 2015-04-28T13:49:42Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T13:49:52Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:50:39Z ehu: drmeister: ok. good 2015-04-28T13:51:05Z temp42 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T13:51:23Z smokeink: splittist: i'm having a few sql tables on which i have to apply the same kind of operations datastore-find-admin datastore-find-user datastore-find-client they all do the same thing, but for a different table, so i thought it's a good chance for me to practice macros, so i just a macro that can generates code for these methods 2015-04-28T13:51:39Z smokeink: *just want 2015-04-28T13:53:20Z smokeink: it's just for practice.. just a simple metaprogramming exercise.. for educational purposes. perhaps a more practical method is just to use functions and pass the table name and use (cond) as the fellows suggested 2015-04-28T13:53:21Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T13:53:27Z scoofy_ is now known as scoofy 2015-04-28T13:53:28Z splittist: smokeink: but they could be functions. Or you could have a generic DATASTORE-FIND which specialises on 'admin, 'client etc. on the one hand and the table on the other. 2015-04-28T13:53:38Z splittist: Well, you see what I mean. 2015-04-28T13:53:42Z smokeink: :) 2015-04-28T13:53:59Z pjb: smokeink: what about (datastore-find :user …) instead of (datastore-find-user …) ? 2015-04-28T13:54:33Z smokeink: yeah that would work beautifully 2015-04-28T13:54:49Z jackdaniel: smokeink: maybe http://paste.lisp.org/display/147603#1 2015-04-28T13:55:46Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-28T13:57:49Z smokeink: yes something like that jackdanie, except that it should work for any number of parameters, i would just specify them in a binding list then it would insert them into the code 2015-04-28T13:58:08Z jackdaniel: oh, and there is unused body 2015-04-28T13:58:38Z jackdaniel: what do you mean by any number of parameters? 2015-04-28T13:59:12Z aftershave quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-04-28T13:59:13Z jackdaniel: if you concatanate symbol table-name with 'name, then you have only one possibility 2015-04-28T13:59:58Z smokeink: i mean that param-name . i could have param-name1 , param-name2 , ... param-nameN that would be used in the sql query in the body 2015-04-28T14:00:40Z Saigut quit (Quit: Bye) 2015-04-28T14:01:10Z smokeink: and all these param-nameN are specified in the bindings what name they should get (what they should be replaced by in the code) 2015-04-28T14:02:22Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-28T14:02:30Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:02:49Z aftershave joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:02:50Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:03:39Z smokeink: i'm attempting to use (defun replace-in-tree (old new tree) ...) to replace tokens in the body 2015-04-28T14:06:06Z SAL9000: Is it possible to define a function which is run upon garbage collection check of a given object? 2015-04-28T14:06:55Z jackdaniel: something like finalizers, but on each check? 2015-04-28T14:06:59Z SAL9000: not exactly 2015-04-28T14:07:35Z SAL9000: for example, if I have an alist '((1 . 2)), I can push another elt to it '((1 . 3) (1 . 2)) which supersedes the first 2015-04-28T14:08:11Z SAL9000: I'd like to set things up so that the superseded alist elements "eventually" get garbage collected. 2015-04-28T14:08:24Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-28T14:08:36Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:09:10Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:09:51Z Xach: SAL9000: where "superseded" is specific to the alist context of looking up by the car? 2015-04-28T14:09:55Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T14:10:17Z failproofshark: hello 2015-04-28T14:10:28Z SAL9000: Xach: the alist is contained within a CLOS object; I know it will always be looked up by car. 2015-04-28T14:11:06Z dlowe: SAL9000: if you remove references to the superseded cons, it will be gc'd 2015-04-28T14:11:20Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:11:20Z dlowe: SAL9000: if you want to do that, though, consider that a hash table might be more suitable 2015-04-28T14:11:31Z Xach: SAL9000: right...what i mean is that you have criteria for labeling something garbage that doesn't match the GC's default criteria 2015-04-28T14:11:44Z Xach: e.g. "reachable via assoc" 2015-04-28T14:12:08Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T14:12:22Z SAL9000: Xach: My question was whether it's possible to define a function that is run whenever the GC checks a given object; this function would then traverse the alist and remove references to the superseded cons 2015-04-28T14:12:22Z dlowe: alists are useful for a "quick and dirty" table and for the uncommon case that you want to preserve the previous elements 2015-04-28T14:12:37Z SAL9000: dlowe: do hash tables make sense if your keys are always numbers? 2015-04-28T14:12:44Z splittist: smokeink: It seems like you're trying to write a DSL for SQL queries. Isn't that just SQL? 2015-04-28T14:12:51Z dlowe: SAL9000: yes 2015-04-28T14:12:54Z SAL9000: make that positive-fixnums, actually. 2015-04-28T14:13:08Z itPuffinB joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:13:59Z dlowe: SAL9000: if your keys are dense within a numeric range, you might want to consider a vector. 2015-04-28T14:14:16Z dlowe: if sparse, a hash table is a good choice 2015-04-28T14:14:42Z SAL9000: I'll have some sparse, some dense... I thought alist was a good compromise given that I'll probably be doing a lot more writes than reads. 2015-04-28T14:14:56Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:14:56Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-04-28T14:14:56Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:15:17Z SAL9000: ...although that's stupid in retrospect. you can't have writes without reads. 2015-04-28T14:15:41Z dlowe: it's much faster to write a number to a vector or hash table than it is to create a cons cell for your alist 2015-04-28T14:16:01Z k-stz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-28T14:16:04Z dlowe: well, much faster to write to a vector. It's probably faster to assign to a hash table 2015-04-28T14:17:02Z dlowe: probably premature to worry about speed at this point, though. If you make a hash table, it will be easy to maintain and adaptable 2015-04-28T14:17:35Z temp42 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-04-28T14:18:08Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-28T14:18:19Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-28T14:18:45Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:19:26Z SAL9000: What's faster, REMHASH or setting the entry to NIL? 2015-04-28T14:20:07Z nyef: ... You know that the two have different semantics, right? 2015-04-28T14:20:18Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:20:39Z SAL9000: in this particular hash table, all useful entries will be non-NIL 2015-04-28T14:20:43Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:21:10Z H4ns: SAL9000: if you set the entry to nil, the memory for the key cannot be reclaimed and the hash table might grow unexpectedly. 2015-04-28T14:21:15Z H4ns: SAL9000: (just saying) 2015-04-28T14:21:27Z SAL9000: I understand that. :-) 2015-04-28T14:22:23Z H4ns: SAL9000: i'd try what is faster in your application. the performance should depend very much on what your application does. 2015-04-28T14:22:25Z itPuffinB is now known as BitPuffin 2015-04-28T14:22:27Z pavelpenev quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-28T14:24:32Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-28T14:24:59Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:25:33Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-28T14:26:41Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:31:43Z cosa_rara joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:31:56Z w37 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-28T14:32:08Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:32:16Z vert2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-28T14:32:16Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-28T14:32:26Z cosa_rara is now known as cosarara 2015-04-28T14:33:17Z smokeink: (setf a '(#'+ 1 2)) why doesn't (apply (car a) (cdr a)) work? The value #'+ is not of type (OR FUNCTION SYMBOL). 2015-04-28T14:33:36Z mingvs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-28T14:33:47Z dlowe: smokeink: you've quoted the whole expression 2015-04-28T14:34:01Z SAL9000: smokeink: (let ((a `(,#'+ 1 2))) (apply (car a) (cdr a))) 2015-04-28T14:34:10Z dlowe: smokeink: expanded, it looks like (QUOTE ((FUNCTION +) 1 2)) 2015-04-28T14:34:30Z vert2 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:34:36Z schjetne joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:34:49Z mingvs joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:35:01Z smokeink: got it :) 2015-04-28T14:35:32Z smokeink: splittist: it's not a dsl for sql, it's just some convenience methods 2015-04-28T14:36:00Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:37:15Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2015-04-28T14:38:38Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:38:59Z kp666 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T14:40:20Z cosarara: hi! Today I had this idea about reimplementing a tool to extract certain bitmap from a GBA ROM file in Lisp. Since I don't have any real experience I wanted to read the code of some lisp application working with binary files and that kind of thing, but I couldn't find a thing. Is Lisp not particularly suited for this kind of thing? 2015-04-28T14:40:47Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-28T14:40:47Z cosarara: Now I said the word "thing" too many times :P 2015-04-28T14:40:52Z H4ns: cosarara: practical common lisp has a whole chapter on that topic 2015-04-28T14:41:02Z H4ns: cosarara: there is the binary-types library which is very suitable 2015-04-28T14:41:05Z Xach: cosarara: i use lisp to extract outlines from truetype files. it's not too tricky. there are plenty of low-level tools for reading binary data and processing it. 2015-04-28T14:42:03Z H4ns: cosarara: "could be", not "is" suitable 2015-04-28T14:42:09Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:43:45Z akersof: hello again, is https://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/ bundle still good for starting lisp? 2015-04-28T14:44:14Z akersof: (fyi i am http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ tutorial) 2015-04-28T14:44:22Z Xach: akersof: no. 2015-04-28T14:45:24Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-28T14:45:58Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:46:16Z Xach: Hmm, I thought I had an alternative suggestion, but it is not coming to mind. 2015-04-28T14:46:28Z cosarara: H4ns: I saw the chapter, but I was looking for an actual application, since I find it easier to look at the full picture 2015-04-28T14:46:31Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:46:37Z Xach: I think it is not too difficult in many circumstances to get stuff directly. 2015-04-28T14:46:47Z Xach: on windows, i think i would try lispstick first 2015-04-28T14:46:52Z cosarara: Xach: and is that program public/free software/... ? 2015-04-28T14:46:58Z Xach: cosarara: it is in a library called zpb-ttf 2015-04-28T14:47:15Z H4ns: cosarara: maybe also https://github.com/Ramarren/png-read 2015-04-28T14:47:34Z cosarara: ok, thank you :) 2015-04-28T14:47:38Z H4ns: akersof: what os do you use? 2015-04-28T14:47:39Z akersof: Xach, ok, else i can just dwonloed emacs and try to setup the editors? 2015-04-28T14:47:45Z akersof: i need SLIME right? 2015-04-28T14:48:01Z Xach: akersof: yes. it is pretty easy to load quicklisp, and quicklisp makes it pretty easy to load slime. 2015-04-28T14:48:14Z akersof: ok quicklisp then :) 2015-04-28T14:48:45Z H4ns: akersof: for linux, there is a relatively recent tutorial in http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/31/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/ 2015-04-28T14:48:54Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:48:54Z Xach: cosarara: I think the chapter in practical common lisp has a better abstraction than zpb-ttf. but zpb-ttf *is* an example of doing stuff. 2015-04-28T14:49:49Z akersof: H4ns, thanks, i put it in my bookmarks 2015-04-28T14:50:10Z akersof: H4ns, it can be easly applied to windows? 2015-04-28T14:50:21Z H4ns: akersof: that's why i asked for your os 2015-04-28T14:50:30Z akersof: H4ns, actually i am on windows 2015-04-28T14:50:32Z smokeink: can the parameters to a macro be 'forced' to evaluate ? 2015-04-28T14:50:33Z Xach: for windows, i would start with lispstick. 2015-04-28T14:50:33Z H4ns: akersof: http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/31/modern-common-lisp-on-windows/ 2015-04-28T14:50:51Z H4ns: ieh 2015-04-28T14:50:58Z Xach: smokeink: when the macro is expanding, there is no value to expand - it is just source code. 2015-04-28T14:51:04Z H4ns: no, please do not look at that, akersof. lipstick is better. 2015-04-28T14:51:12Z akersof: H4ns, i used to work on linux but i have an hard drive problem actually 2015-04-28T14:51:22Z Xach: smokeink: the usual thing to do is put the parameter into the expansion for evaluation naturally at runtime. 2015-04-28T14:51:26Z akersof: sure i will go lipstick 2015-04-28T14:51:36Z akersof: damn 2015-04-28T14:52:39Z akersof: H4ns, lipstick or you mean quicklisp? 2015-04-28T14:53:12Z H4ns: akersof: the link that i've posted. it suggest that you should use clisp, which i can't recommend. 2015-04-28T14:53:15Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-28T14:53:35Z Xach wonders about a mohiji update 2015-04-28T14:55:09Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-28T14:55:29Z smokeink: http://www.iqool.de/lispstick.html LispStick! contains SBCL, Emacs, SLIME and Quicklisp 2015-04-28T14:57:00Z akersof: smokeink, sure i have found it in searching, a nice bundle i think? 2015-04-28T14:57:02Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-04-28T14:57:03Z smokeink: akersof: quicklisp is a library, a tool that you can use to get other libraries such as slime, but it seems lispstick already has slime 2015-04-28T14:57:40Z akersof: smokeink, ok, thanks to make it clearer 2015-04-28T14:58:17Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-28T14:58:42Z kvsari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T14:59:38Z smokeink: so after you start emacs and run slime when you'll want to install libraries you'll type in something like this: (ql:quickload 'library-name) . and it will will download the library for you, then it will load it. here's a list of libraries available through quicklisp http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/releases.html 2015-04-28T15:00:35Z Xach: too much info! 2015-04-28T15:01:11Z akersof: Xach, :) it is ok 2015-04-28T15:03:29Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:06:10Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:07:28Z beamed_down is now known as Beamed 2015-04-28T15:08:00Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T15:08:36Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-28T15:08:58Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:09:21Z gbr_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:09:34Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:09:49Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-28T15:09:58Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-28T15:10:10Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:11:19Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-28T15:11:37Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:11:58Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:12:28Z chrnybo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T15:12:45Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:12:56Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-28T15:13:14Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:13:49Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:14:11Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:15:01Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:18:12Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T15:19:04Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-28T15:20:12Z jdz: Xach: y u no send encrypted emails? 2015-04-28T15:25:58Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T15:26:27Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-28T15:26:42Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T15:27:01Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-28T15:28:23Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T15:30:00Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-28T15:31:37Z Guest26031 quit (Changing host) 2015-04-28T15:31:37Z Guest26031 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:31:46Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:32:54Z Guest26031 left #lisp 2015-04-28T15:34:41Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T15:34:46Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-28T15:35:20Z Ethan- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T15:36:01Z shka joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:36:30Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:37:38Z Xach: Don't understand the utility in the most recent case. 2015-04-28T15:38:49Z roang joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:41:44Z alama joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:42:36Z jdz: usually that's to ensure everything works 2015-04-28T15:42:45Z jdz: but no big deal 2015-04-28T15:42:52Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-28T15:43:43Z funnel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T15:43:43Z daimrod quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T15:44:06Z marvi quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-28T15:44:14Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:44:14Z marvi quit (Changing host) 2015-04-28T15:44:14Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:44:16Z tsumetai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T15:44:25Z funnel joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:44:32Z daimrod joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:47:16Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:48:52Z Xach: ok 2015-04-28T15:48:57Z Xach: i'll do that next time. 2015-04-28T15:49:44Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T15:50:05Z mega1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T15:52:12Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:53:30Z roang quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T15:53:48Z roang joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:53:59Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-28T15:54:23Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:56:33Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T15:56:54Z oleo: hello 2015-04-28T15:56:54Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-28T15:57:26Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T15:59:04Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2015-04-28T16:00:13Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-28T16:00:47Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-28T16:02:31Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T16:03:30Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T16:04:40Z fragamus joined #lisp 2015-04-28T16:05:34Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T16:07:00Z gbr_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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(i have the answer: use Gnus!) 2015-04-28T16:19:45Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-28T16:20:25Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-28T16:22:59Z smokeink quit (Quit: enjoy the joy of enjoying) 2015-04-28T16:23:54Z Xach: I use a variety of clients, depending on where i'm sitting and what I want to do. 2015-04-28T16:25:14Z logand``` joined #lisp 2015-04-28T16:25:16Z fe[nl]ix: too bad nobody wrote a local SMTP server that forwards email signing it automatically 2015-04-28T16:25:18Z copec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T16:27:13Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T16:29:11Z logand`` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T16:29:34Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T16:29:42Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-28T16:30:39Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-28T16:31:06Z copec joined #lisp 2015-04-28T16:31:07Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-04-28T16:35:56Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-28T16:37:09Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T16:37:47Z vap1 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T16:42:57Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T16:43:23Z p_l: /act/act 2015-04-28T16:43:27Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T16:43:28Z p_l: ehhh 2015-04-28T16:43:53Z fleaswallow joined #lisp 2015-04-28T16:45:24Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-04-28T16:46:21Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T16:46:57Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T16:46:58Z Tristam quit (Quit: Some days you are the pigeon, other days the statue.) 2015-04-28T16:47:26Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-28T16:48:36Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T16:50:07Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-04-28T16:51:10Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T16:52:34Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-28T16:55:44Z roang quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T16:55:51Z Carisius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T16:56:54Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-28T17:04:07Z reb``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T17:04:10Z Ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T17:08:12Z Tristam joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:09:41Z ir2ivps quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-28T17:11:00Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:12:35Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:12:46Z sjas joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:14:22Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:16:12Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:16:33Z srcerer_ is now known as srcerer 2015-04-28T17:16:37Z pjb: fe[nl]ix: this is rather dangerous to do that, in the current systems. Any virus could take over, and start sending signed email on your behalf. 2015-04-28T17:17:08Z pjb: On the other hand, it's obvious that something like that would existing in a capability based system. 2015-04-28T17:17:46Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T17:20:30Z Beamed is now known as beamed_down 2015-04-28T17:20:40Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:21:05Z EvW quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T17:22:15Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:24:49Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-28T17:25:18Z sword joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:26:15Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:27:40Z Tristam quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T17:27:47Z gbr_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:28:41Z Tristam joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:29:22Z akkad: is this a code bug? https://gist.github.com/e6b4fcbc7c5b570e8719 2015-04-28T17:30:18Z agumonkey quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-28T17:30:35Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T17:31:17Z roang joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:31:34Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:32:21Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-28T17:35:25Z ir2ivps joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:36:22Z akkad: the queries all seem to work in slime. 2015-04-28T17:36:31Z Tristam quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-28T17:36:46Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:37:50Z Tristam joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:40:07Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:41:04Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:41:19Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-28T17:41:21Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T17:41:44Z akkad: code https://gist.github.com/5aff5a5aec71710f38b5 2015-04-28T17:41:51Z Tristam quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T17:42:02Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:42:37Z gbr__ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:44:42Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:44:58Z gbr_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-28T17:45:20Z gbr_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:45:40Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:45:48Z Tristam joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:46:00Z yukawa21 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:47:33Z agumonkey quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-28T17:48:04Z gbr__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-28T17:48:47Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-04-28T17:49:36Z gbr__ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:50:24Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:50:54Z Tristam quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T17:51:20Z Tristam joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:53:05Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-28T17:53:24Z gbr_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-28T17:54:02Z yukawa21 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-28T17:55:04Z Tristam quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T17:55:39Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-28T17:56:29Z Tristam joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:56:52Z gbr_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:58:28Z gbr_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-28T17:58:36Z ir2ivps quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-28T17:58:41Z ggole_ quit 2015-04-28T17:59:03Z gbr_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T17:59:57Z gbr__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-28T18:00:19Z Tristam quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-28T18:00:52Z gbr__ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:01:05Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:03:59Z gbr_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-28T18:04:08Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2015-04-28T18:04:13Z protist quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-28T18:05:28Z tandy80 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:07:14Z Tristam joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:07:55Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T18:08:45Z tandy80 left #lisp 2015-04-28T18:10:26Z alama quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-04-28T18:10:32Z tandy80_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:10:39Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:10:47Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:11:14Z tandy80__ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:15:00Z tandy80_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T18:15:02Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:19:48Z roang quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T18:19:55Z roang joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:19:56Z Adlai: clhs set-dispatch-macro-character 2015-04-28T18:19:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set__1.htm 2015-04-28T18:20:17Z Adlai: in the examples, it has (read s nil (values) t) ... why (values) rather than just nil? 2015-04-28T18:20:49Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-28T18:21:36Z holycow joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:21:39Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:21:48Z holycow is now known as Guest49086 2015-04-28T18:21:55Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:22:24Z tandy80__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T18:22:32Z Bicyclidine: Adlai: they're equivalent. so, i couldn't tell you. 2015-04-28T18:22:53Z Adlai: they're not equivalent, (values) causes cognitive load :( 2015-04-28T18:22:57Z PuercoPop: Adlai: I've been told it is an idiom to communicate you don't care about the return value 2015-04-28T18:23:10Z agumonkey quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-28T18:23:14Z Bicyclidine: well it is, but in this case it's used in a function call. 2015-04-28T18:23:23Z Adlai: PuercoPop: yes, but that expression appears as the value in a let binding, so its return value becomes nil anyways 2015-04-28T18:23:24Z Bicyclidine: so it's completely the same as just putting nil there. 2015-04-28T18:24:41Z ir2ivps joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:24:43Z Adlai: https://github.com/froydnj/ironclad/blob/master/ironclad.asd#L13 any idea how to fulfill this? the spec indicates that one can provide but a single argument to dispatching read macros 2015-04-28T18:25:09Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-28T18:25:21Z Adlai: I guess it could test whether the data is a flat list, or list-of-lists 2015-04-28T18:25:28Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:26:00Z Bicyclidine: that'd be most obvious, yeah, since you're already using the argument for something else. 2015-04-28T18:27:25Z Bicyclidine: of course if you do that you wouldn't be able to have an array of lists 2015-04-28T18:27:34Z Bicyclidine: but that's not a problem since your element type is a number anyhow. 2015-04-28T18:28:26Z Adlai: the element type is the size of the byte width for data, which are all supposed to be bytes 2015-04-28T18:28:44Z Adlai: s/element type/macro character argument/ 2015-04-28T18:28:58Z Bicyclidine: right. 2015-04-28T18:29:08Z Adlai didn't write that, just encountered the fixme and wondered how hard it really is 2015-04-28T18:29:50Z Bicyclidine: shouldn't be that hard. basically write a function to get the "array lengths" from a list of lists, and replace the (length array-data) call with (that-function array-data). 2015-04-28T18:30:47Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:31:22Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:32:52Z Bicyclidine: (defun list-spec (list) (typecase list (null '(0)) (list (cons (length list) (list-spec (first list)))) (t nil))) or something 2015-04-28T18:33:28Z Adlai: shouldn't it fail loudly and early if the sublists are of unequal length? 2015-04-28T18:34:03Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-28T18:34:09Z Bicyclidine: make-array will check that anyway, so fuck it. 2015-04-28T18:35:55Z Adlai: nice. my primary weakness as a cadet was the inability to eagerly delegate responsibility... 2015-04-28T18:36:06Z Bicyclidine: if you want you can have (list (let ((lengths (mapcar #'list-spec list))) (if (reduce #'equal lengths) (first lengths) (eror ...)))) in the typecase or something 2015-04-28T18:36:29Z gbr_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:36:51Z gbr__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T18:37:23Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:37:31Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:38:27Z tsumetai joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:40:30Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T18:40:38Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:41:13Z gbr_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T18:41:29Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-28T18:41:47Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-28T18:43:38Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Instead, when you have several lists, you put them in a container: a list, a vector, a hash-table, whatever. 2015-04-28T20:30:14Z pjb: (let ((my-lists #((1 2 3) (4 5 6)))) (aref my-lists 0)) --> (1 2 3) 2015-04-28T20:30:18Z Tristam joined #lisp 2015-04-28T20:30:53Z pjb: (let ((my-lists '((a . (1 2 3)) (b . (4 5 6))))) (cdr (assoc 'a my-lists))) --> (1 2 3) ; etc. 2015-04-28T20:31:30Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-28T20:32:28Z ErhardtMundt joined #lisp 2015-04-28T20:32:52Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-28T20:33:39Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T20:33:55Z drmeister: Xach: You touched me when with those graphs. 2015-04-28T20:34:07Z drmeister: s/when with/with/ 2015-04-28T20:34:34Z drmeister: Or to put it a slightly less creepy way: "Your graphs touched me" 2015-04-28T20:34:45Z EuAndreh joined #lisp 2015-04-28T20:35:19Z FareWell quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-28T20:35:19Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-28T20:35:24Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-28T20:35:43Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-04-28T20:37:17Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T20:37:24Z oleo: which graphs ? 2015-04-28T20:37:49Z drmeister: oleo: Oh, don't you want to know! 2015-04-28T20:38:05Z Xach: oleo: from my ELS talk. blogging has declined a lot since its heyday. 2015-04-28T20:38:19Z drmeister: I'm kidding - Xach displayed some graphs at ELS that demonstrated how blogging has fallen off over the past couple of years. 2015-04-28T20:38:48Z drmeister: Now everybody is tweeting. 2015-04-28T20:39:13Z drmeister: In a year or two everyone will be putting out single "1"s, "0"s and the occasional "2". 2015-04-28T20:40:38Z EuAndreh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T20:41:09Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-28T20:41:25Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-28T20:42:04Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-28T20:42:41Z dlowe: I bet we'll see a blogging resurgence when the blogger generation hits retirement age. I think everyone is just too busy. 2015-04-28T20:42:48Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T20:46:35Z Xach: That's my excuse, but I'm trying to fight it. Everyone is busy but sharing info is important. 2015-04-28T20:46:38Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-04-28T20:46:55Z flash- joined #lisp 2015-04-28T20:47:22Z drmeister: 👍 2015-04-28T20:47:42Z drmeister: Or 👎 - one of those. 2015-04-28T20:47:43Z dlowe: Those that do it are to be commended. 2015-04-28T20:48:12Z drmeister: 💩 2015-04-28T20:49:04Z drmeister: On NPR they said that that was the most popular emoji in the old country (Canada). 2015-04-28T20:49:09Z Xach: I'm trying to remember a from mccarthy when graham was presenting Arc at an ILC. something about arc's code being its specification, and someone (i think mccarthy) saying "would you rather read 'transposes a matrix' or try to understand nested loops of code?" 2015-04-28T20:49:24Z Xach: Does that ring a bell for anyone else? 2015-04-28T20:49:35Z Xach should crank up his Usenet search-o-matic 2015-04-28T20:49:55Z Bicyclidine: no, but that's a pretty solid burn, do share if you find it 2015-04-28T20:49:58Z Xach: drmeister: my xterm cannot display any of those fancy things. 7x14.pcf is too old. 2015-04-28T20:50:15Z drmeister: That's for the best - really. 2015-04-28T20:51:30Z dlowe: I can imagine mccarthy being pretty intolerant of PG's bs 2015-04-28T20:51:41Z Xach: google groups ain't finding it. 2015-04-28T20:54:18Z larion joined #lisp 2015-04-28T20:54:22Z mood: Xach: PG himself has a footnote on his page about the talk http://www.paulgraham.com/ilc03.html 2015-04-28T20:55:19Z Xach: mood: thanks, that is probably what i remember. 2015-04-28T20:55:25Z axion: hmm, i might have found a bug in sbcl 2015-04-28T20:55:35Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-28T20:55:47Z axion: (acos 1.0) throws a type error on sbcl/windows, but works just fine in sbcl/linux 2015-04-28T20:56:30Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-28T20:58:21Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-28T21:01:02Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T21:04:35Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T21:07:09Z theseb: Xach: Whoa....PG got burned in the flesh by the grand lisper himself? crazy 2015-04-28T21:09:55Z drmeister: It has taken me four years to learn the true meaning of NIL 2015-04-28T21:10:10Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-04-28T21:10:11Z Shinmera has a bunch of ideas for lisp related articles to write, but no time to at the moment. Sigh. 2015-04-28T21:10:50Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T21:10:58Z pyon-ktiert is now known as ad-pyon-giert 2015-04-28T21:13:20Z katco joined #lisp 2015-04-28T21:14:36Z katco: i have defined (defconstant +foo+ '((a b) (c d))). how do i convert a string to one of a, b, c, or d? 2015-04-28T21:14:43Z katco: sorry, this is in CL 2015-04-28T21:15:39Z Fare: find-symbol ? 2015-04-28T21:15:41Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-28T21:16:00Z Fare: flatten, and find with string-equal ? 2015-04-28T21:16:08Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-04-28T21:16:13Z katco: Fare: i tried (find-symbol "a") and it found nothing 2015-04-28T21:16:34Z Fare: (find-symbol "A") will find it. CL is case-converting 2015-04-28T21:16:43Z Xach: katco: the symbol a usually has the name "A" 2015-04-28T21:16:58Z katco: Fare: Xach: ah ok, let me try that 2015-04-28T21:17:22Z katco: looks like that is working 2015-04-28T21:17:29Z katco: ty guys :) 2015-04-28T21:17:38Z Xach: hooray 2015-04-28T21:18:02Z Fare: in the next uiop release, I want to export a standard-case-symbol-name primitive to convert strings to symbol names in the appropriate case. 2015-04-28T21:18:17Z Fare: which on most (and all standard) CLs is with STRING-UPCASE 2015-04-28T21:19:01Z Fare: so that there's a trivial way to go from the string foo (as e.g. passed as command line argument) to symbol foo. 2015-04-28T21:19:29Z Pollwa joined #lisp 2015-04-28T21:19:33Z Fare: that doesn't involve read-from-string, (or more safely uiop:safe-read-from-string) 2015-04-28T21:20:05Z katco: Fare: cool, yeah i suspect this is a common use-case 2015-04-28T21:20:55Z Shinmera has a TO-READTABLE-CASE function in Qtools to remedy that. 2015-04-28T21:21:09Z Grue`: axion: can confirm (acos 1) results in division by zero, how weird 2015-04-28T21:21:26Z axion: Grue`: indeed. what's more weird is it only occurs on sbcl/windows 2015-04-28T21:21:33Z axion: it works fine on other implementations, or even sbcl/linux 2015-04-28T21:21:55Z wemeetagain quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T21:25:30Z Grue`: uhhh (defun %asin (number) (%atan (/ number (sqrt (- 1 (* number number)))))) 2015-04-28T21:25:36Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-28T21:25:57Z Grue`: and this code is #!+win32 so it's a windows-only bug 2015-04-28T21:26:34Z larion joined #lisp 2015-04-28T21:26:40Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-28T21:28:04Z axion: aha 2015-04-28T21:28:21Z axion: so 2015-04-28T21:28:55Z axion: i cant even compile that file due to (acos (alexandria:clamp x -1.0 1.0)) 2015-04-28T21:29:58Z Grue`` joined #lisp 2015-04-28T21:30:30Z gniourf_gniourf: do you really need acos? 2015-04-28T21:31:10Z axion: i'm not sure, but i'd imagine so to get the angle/sign between 2 3d vectors 2015-04-28T21:31:31Z gniourf_gniourf: do you really need the angle? 2015-04-28T21:31:34Z gniourf_gniourf: :D 2015-04-28T21:31:35Z axion: yes 2015-04-28T21:31:37Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-28T21:31:40Z gniourf_gniourf: really? 2015-04-28T21:31:51Z axion: yeah, why? 2015-04-28T21:31:55Z gniourf_gniourf: I don't know 2015-04-28T21:32:20Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-28T21:32:32Z gniourf_gniourf: what are you doing with the angle? 2015-04-28T21:32:50Z axion: rotating a game entity 2015-04-28T21:33:12Z gniourf_gniourf: and you need the angle to rotate? 2015-04-28T21:33:17Z gniourf_gniourf: I don't usually 2015-04-28T21:33:32Z gniourf_gniourf: I need the cosine and the sine of the angle to do a rotation 2015-04-28T21:33:36Z gniourf_gniourf: not the angle itself 2015-04-28T21:33:51Z axion: yes 2015-04-28T21:34:48Z drmeister: Are there any C++ers online? I'm trying to implement a Common Lisp efficiently and I've come up with a C++ template programming trick to implement FUNCALL in C++. 2015-04-28T21:34:57Z Bicyclidine: cosine is adjacent over hypotenuse! who needs arccos if you've got coordinates 2015-04-28T21:35:04Z marvi quit (Excess Flood) 2015-04-28T21:35:08Z drmeister: Here's what I'm trying to achieve in Common Lisp 2015-04-28T21:35:12Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ASl6HLwF 2015-04-28T21:35:41Z Bicyclidine: Are you asking thsi in the channel you meant to? 2015-04-28T21:35:50Z jlarocco: it's ugly in C++, but possible with std::tuple 2015-04-28T21:36:05Z Grue``: the bottom line is that I'm pretty sure ANSI spec requires acos to be computable at 1, so this bug needs to be reported 2015-04-28T21:36:20Z Grue`` is now known as Grue` 2015-04-28T21:36:43Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-28T21:36:46Z drmeister: Bicyclidine: Yes - the ##C++ channel is full of wankers. 2015-04-28T21:36:50Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-04-28T21:37:02Z Bicyclidine: oh, ok. 2015-04-28T21:37:19Z ErhardtMundt: is there any core reference online? 2015-04-28T21:37:22Z drmeister: Here's how I could implement this in C++. But it has a problem. It does two tests. 2015-04-28T21:37:37Z ErhardtMundt: I mean, onwe which doesn't look like it was made in 1991 2015-04-28T21:37:43Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/d23bc392556f3f0150ac 2015-04-28T21:38:11Z drmeister: On line 3, tfunc can be NIL if there is no function or a FUNCTION object. 2015-04-28T21:38:27Z drmeister: So I test if it's NIL on line 4 and if it is I signal an error UNDEFINED-FUNCTION 2015-04-28T21:39:00Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T21:39:04Z drmeister: Then on line 5 I coerce the T_sp pointer to a Function_sp pointer - this involves the second, redundant check. 2015-04-28T21:39:31Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-28T21:39:35Z Bicyclidine: Grue`: yeah, pretty sure that's a bug, though i'm a bit frazzled to understand all the branch cuts. 2015-04-28T21:39:41Z drmeister: Next up - the new idea that looks a little crazy. 2015-04-28T21:39:45Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-28T21:40:17Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-04-28T21:40:51Z axion: Grue`: i mentioned it in sbcl, and i guess they are aware of it. sbcl on windows doesnt get much attention though 2015-04-28T21:41:18Z axion: gives me one more reason to switch to ccl indefinitely 2015-04-28T21:41:31Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/ea8ede4199ac66ce6bdd 2015-04-28T21:41:35Z Bicyclidine: oh, yeah, i remember them mentioning it. something about win32 not having acos sometimes 2015-04-28T21:42:01Z Bicyclidine: drmeister: wow, that does look gross. is that a lambda? 2015-04-28T21:42:24Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-04-28T21:43:01Z drmeister: What I'm wondering is "what is the runtime overhead in that lambda if it's not invoked". 2015-04-28T21:43:22Z drmeister: This might be a ##C++ question and if I go there please don't tell them that I called them all "wankers". 2015-04-28T21:43:42Z jlarocco: haha 2015-04-28T21:43:57Z Shinmera: drmeister: It's all on file. Your reputation is ruined forever. 2015-04-28T21:44:17Z drmeister: as_or_invoke will do the coercion and if it fails then it invokes the lambda. Since it signals an error, as_or_invoke will never return. 2015-04-28T21:44:31Z drmeister grumbles "wankers" 2015-04-28T21:45:22Z drmeister: When I read the docs on lambda's they are confusing about when and why lambdas cause consing. 2015-04-28T21:46:10Z Grue`: it seems that aside from breaking at 1, calculating asin as atan of something also loses precision when we're near +1/-1 2015-04-28T21:46:10Z drmeister: Any thoughts before I throw my self to the tender mercies of ##C++? 2015-04-28T21:46:21Z Bicyclidine: well, it's only a downward funarg, i think, so it's probably not much? 2015-04-28T21:46:37Z jlarocco: I don't think it adds much overhead, but I'm pretty sure it depends on the compiler, and what the lambda is exactly 2015-04-28T21:46:40Z Bicyclidine: Grue`: asin of atan? 2015-04-28T21:46:56Z drmeister: Bicyclidine: That's all I'd ever use this facility for. Coerce or fail! Change or die! 2015-04-28T21:47:25Z Grue`: I posted the code above, it calculates asin(x) = atan(x/sqrt(1-x^2)) 2015-04-28T21:47:29Z EuAndreh joined #lisp 2015-04-28T21:47:48Z Bicyclidine: oh, sorry. 2015-04-28T21:48:02Z Bicyclidine: if x is near 1 that means you're dividing by almost zero, no? 2015-04-28T21:48:12Z axion: Grue`: what code. sorry 2015-04-28T21:48:30Z Grue`: (defun %asin (number) (%atan (/ number (sqrt (- 1 (* number number)))))) in irrat.lisp 2015-04-28T21:48:49Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-04-28T21:48:49Z marvi quit (Changing host) 2015-04-28T21:48:49Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-04-28T21:48:59Z axion: so this needs some attention if it loses precision as well 2015-04-28T21:49:21Z legomenon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T21:49:49Z EuAndreh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T21:50:04Z EuAndreh joined #lisp 2015-04-28T21:50:04Z Grue`: this formula is mathematically valid (if we consider atan(infinity)=+-pi/2), but numerically it's questionable 2015-04-28T21:50:26Z axion: hmm 2015-04-28T21:51:21Z drmeister: Oh for crying out loud - I can't post anything to ##C++. 2015-04-28T21:51:36Z Bicyclidine: haha, banned? 2015-04-28T21:51:55Z Bicyclidine: axion: i'm still pretty sure you don't need acos if you're just going to take cos and sin of it, regardless of this sbcl issue. 2015-04-28T21:52:38Z nyef: Or devoiced? 2015-04-28T21:53:22Z axion: Bicyclidine: this is my function that someone helped me write a long time ago. i'm not much of a mathematician heh. http://paste.lisp.org/display/147616 2015-04-28T21:53:33Z drmeister: I don't know - channel full? That I'm not a wanker? Take your pick. 2015-04-28T21:54:22Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2015-04-28T21:54:23Z marvi quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-28T21:54:26Z Bicyclidine: well, right, if you actually want to get the angle you have to do some inverse trig or another. but obviously cos(acos(foo)) is not necessary, and sin(acos(foo)) can be done with some algebra. 2015-04-28T21:54:37Z fleaswallow quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-28T21:54:52Z axion: heh 2015-04-28T21:55:27Z drmeister stumbles off to disassemble some code. 2015-04-28T21:56:19Z hapax joined #lisp 2015-04-28T21:56:42Z hapax is now known as Guest95871 2015-04-28T21:57:02Z EuAndreh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T21:57:39Z molbdnilo joined #lisp 2015-04-28T21:57:42Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T21:58:29Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-28T22:00:57Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2015-04-28T22:02:50Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-28T22:02:55Z sheilong quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-28T22:04:10Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-28T22:05:28Z jasom: drmeister: one visit to britain and you're calling everyone wankers already 2015-04-28T22:05:46Z p_l: :D 2015-04-28T22:05:48Z katco joined #lisp 2015-04-28T22:06:29Z drmeister: I'm Canadian - it's a recessive cultural gene that occasionally expresses. 2015-04-28T22:07:46Z nyef: So... you got exposed to the appropriate (inappropriate?) trigger while you were on that side of the pond? 2015-04-28T22:08:09Z drmeister: It has nothing to do with traveling to London - that is complete rubbish. 2015-04-28T22:10:33Z drmeister: How is it that as I grow more sophisticated with C++ that I generate code that looks more and more like line noise? if ( this->_HomePackage.as_or_error([this](){TYPE_ERROR(this->_HomePackage,cl::_sym_package);})->isKeywordPackage() ) return this->sharedThis(); 2015-04-28T22:12:00Z drmeister: Swift's "optional chaining" == ?. is looking pretty good about now. 2015-04-28T22:14:00Z Pollwa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T22:14:15Z Pollwa joined #lisp 2015-04-28T22:16:26Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-04-28T22:17:04Z p_l: drmeister: because templates are line noise that wishes it was perl? 2015-04-28T22:19:43Z molbdnilo quit (Quit: molbdnilo) 2015-04-28T22:19:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-28T22:21:00Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T22:22:26Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T22:22:41Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-04-28T22:23:18Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-28T22:23:33Z Bicyclidine: axion: like, if you have objects at x1,y1 and x2,y2 the cos of the angle from 1 to 2 is just (x2-x1)/distance. 2015-04-28T22:23:55Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-04-28T22:24:21Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-28T22:24:30Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-04-28T22:25:38Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T22:26:00Z Grue`: axion: the main problem with a function like this is that the inputs are continuous but the output has discontinuities (i.e. a small variation of inputs changes the angle from 2pi-epsilon to 0); a better idea would be to return a complex number which represents the angle between the two vectors and is a continuous function of the two vectors. 2015-04-28T22:26:26Z axion: hmm i'll look into that 2015-04-28T22:26:45Z Bicyclidine: (complex (- x2 x1) (- y2 y1))? 2015-04-28T22:27:27Z flash- quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-28T22:27:27Z Grue`: the complex number that has abs = |a|*|b| and the phase = angle between two vectors 2015-04-28T22:28:10Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-04-28T22:28:22Z Grue`: so I made some calculations and the real part is dot product of a and b, and imaginary part is sqrt((|a||b|)^2 - (a.b)^2) where a.b is dot product 2015-04-28T22:29:14Z Grue`: this is a continuous function of a and b because absolute value of |a||b| can't be less than a.b 2015-04-28T22:29:25Z axion: i think i'm too stupid to adapt this function. i needed a lot of help writing it about 6 months ago 2015-04-28T22:29:32Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-28T22:29:57Z Grue`: and the phase of this complex number is the angle so you get that as well! 2015-04-28T22:30:30Z Bicyclidine: i'm slightly confused. i have points at 7,8 and 2,3. (phase (complex (- 7 2) (- 8 3))) = pi/4, there's the angle 2015-04-28T22:30:34Z Pastaf joined #lisp 2015-04-28T22:30:57Z axion: also i should mention these are 3d vectors 2015-04-28T22:30:59Z Grue`: that's for 2-dimensional vectors, but my formula works for n-dimensional 2015-04-28T22:31:03Z Bicyclidine: oh, i see. 2015-04-28T22:31:13Z psy quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-28T22:31:19Z Bicyclidine: quaternions, clearly 2015-04-28T22:31:48Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-28T22:31:56Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-04-28T22:32:20Z Bicyclidine: course, an angle between two points in three-space is not a very coherent concept, gotta get yo spherical coordinates on 2015-04-28T22:33:08Z Adlai quit (Quit: Insufficient entropy for sufficient reason) 2015-04-28T22:33:47Z Adlai joined #lisp 2015-04-28T22:34:48Z nyef: An angle between two points in any space doesn't make sense without an origin. 2015-04-28T22:35:07Z nyef: At which point, you have an angle between lines. 2015-04-28T22:35:07Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T22:38:20Z vdamewood quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-04-28T22:38:44Z axion: Grue`: do you have time to help me fix this function? i'm clueless 2015-04-28T22:40:34Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-28T22:40:42Z C6248 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T22:40:56Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-04-28T22:41:23Z mishoo quit (Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)) 2015-04-28T22:41:57Z Pollwa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-28T22:42:24Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-04-28T22:44:51Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-28T22:47:48Z C6248 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-28T22:53:58Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-28T22:59:26Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-28T23:03:06Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T23:07:36Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-04-28T23:12:05Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T23:13:10Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-28T23:15:14Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T23:15:56Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T23:19:01Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-04-28T23:19:24Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-28T23:23:04Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-28T23:27:10Z axion: Grue`: nevermind...i seemed to have got the result i'm looking for using atan 2015-04-28T23:27:47Z blt joined #lisp 2015-04-28T23:27:48Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-28T23:29:19Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-28T23:29:39Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-28T23:30:54Z josteink joined #lisp 2015-04-28T23:32:19Z White_Flame quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-04-28T23:33:54Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-04-28T23:37:04Z PuercoPop: minion memo for k-stz: Kenny Tilton's Road to Lisp Survey is on his blog: http://smuglispweeny.blogspot.com/2008/02/my-road-to-lisp.html 2015-04-28T23:37:30Z White_Flame: pretty sure you need a colon after 'minion' 2015-04-28T23:37:40Z PuercoPop: minion: memo for k-stz Kenny Tilton's Road to Lisp Survey is on his blog: http://smuglispweeny.blogspot.com/2008/02/my-road-to-lisp.html 2015-04-28T23:37:41Z minion: i like lisp... i'm written in it 2015-04-28T23:37:56Z PuercoPop: thx 2015-04-28T23:38:08Z Bicyclidine: and also one after k-stz, i think 2015-04-28T23:39:12Z White_Flame: also, "/msg minion help" is there for reference 2015-04-28T23:39:12Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-28T23:39:53Z White_Flame: minion: Don't you think you could be a little more forgiving with punctuation? 2015-04-28T23:39:53Z minion: maybe i think me could be a little more forgiving with punctuation , maybe i don't. i'm not telling /you/. 2015-04-28T23:39:59Z PuercoPop: minion: memo for k-stz: Kenny Tilton's Road to Lisp Survey is on his blog: http://smuglispweeny.blogspot.com/2008/02/my-road-to-lisp.html 2015-04-28T23:39:59Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell k-stz when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-04-28T23:40:26Z PuercoPop: right about the :, checked the help jic 2015-04-28T23:44:17Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: do not fire) 2015-04-28T23:48:25Z CPQAs joined #lisp 2015-04-28T23:48:27Z CPQAs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-28T23:49:27Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-04-28T23:50:43Z blt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-28T23:51:11Z blt joined #lisp 2015-04-29T00:01:23Z Denommus quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-29T00:05:46Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I am reading what you wrote yesterday. What happens when a C++ function is called from Common Lisp and that function returns a C++ class instance, as opposed to a pointer to that instance? 2015-04-29T03:56:33Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-04-29T03:58:38Z hq1 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T03:59:08Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-04-29T04:01:38Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T04:01:41Z beach: drmeister: Maybe you wrote that somewhere and I just can't find it? 2015-04-29T04:01:52Z blt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-29T04:10:57Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T04:15:02Z Zhivago: I'd presume that a copy is made and a pointer to it provided to CL. 2015-04-29T04:15:13Z Zhivago: Since that would satisfy the semantics on both sides. 2015-04-29T04:16:30Z beach: Maybe so, yes. 2015-04-29T04:17:42Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-29T04:18:25Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T04:20:54Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-29T04:23:04Z pillton: Perhaps this is a stupid question. Is there no C++ ABI? 2015-04-29T04:24:53Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T04:25:55Z beach: What would be specified in such an ABI? 2015-04-29T04:26:28Z pillton: How to call C++ functions and methods? 2015-04-29T04:26:59Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-29T04:27:08Z beach: Is your question independent of mine, or would the existence of such an ABI answer my question? 2015-04-29T04:28:01Z beach: I am terribly sorry if I come across as dense, here, but I really don't understand it. 2015-04-29T04:28:19Z H4ns: there is no common c++ abi, every compiler has its own 2015-04-29T04:28:29Z pillton: beach: It is independent. 2015-04-29T04:28:38Z beach: Whew! 2015-04-29T04:29:25Z pillton: H4ns: Seriously? So, a C++ program compiled with gcc cannot link against a library compiled with clang++? 2015-04-29T04:29:34Z H4ns: pillton: correct 2015-04-29T04:29:41Z pillton: Idiots. 2015-04-29T04:29:50Z beach: Oh, so does that mean C++ code to be used with Clasp has to be compiled with a particular compiler? 2015-04-29T04:30:05Z H4ns: pillton: only an ignorant would say that 2015-04-29T04:30:16Z H4ns: beach: indeed it does 2015-04-29T04:30:21Z zaquest joined #lisp 2015-04-29T04:30:35Z H4ns: beach: like you can't use a fasl from clisp with sbcl 2015-04-29T04:30:47Z H4ns: beach: or a fasl from sbcl 1.1 with sbcl 1.2 2015-04-29T04:30:51Z H4ns: so much for idiots. 2015-04-29T04:31:04Z beach: I didn't say "idiots". 2015-04-29T04:31:36Z pillton: beach: It was me. 2015-04-29T04:33:50Z pillton: Common lisp has no notion of link time so it makes sense that that is the case. Fasl stands for fast loading. 2015-04-29T04:34:16Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-29T04:34:25Z isaac_rks quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-29T04:35:06Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-29T04:35:06Z H4ns: beach: i did not mean to imply that, sorry 2015-04-29T04:35:29Z beach: No problem. 2015-04-29T04:41:24Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-29T04:43:54Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-04-29T04:44:55Z Zhivago: pillton: Many platforms have ABIs, and implementations for those platforms would presumably conform to that. 2015-04-29T04:45:13Z Zhivago: pillton: So in some places you may expect to be able to perform such linkage, and not in others. 2015-04-29T04:45:37Z Zhivago: CL link time is probably the point at which globals become bound. 2015-04-29T04:47:27Z kami joined #lisp 2015-04-29T04:47:41Z kami: Good morning #lisp 2015-04-29T04:52:10Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-29T04:59:58Z Denommus quit (Quit: Bye) 2015-04-29T05:00:09Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2015-04-29T05:01:17Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-04-29T05:01:30Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-29T05:02:38Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-29T05:03:08Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-04-29T05:03:25Z hq1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T05:04:24Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-29T05:05:41Z hq1 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T05:06:22Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-29T05:07:33Z beach: Hello kami. 2015-04-29T05:09:03Z smokeink: morning all 2015-04-29T05:09:15Z beach: Hello smokeink. 2015-04-29T05:11:21Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T05:13:02Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-04-29T05:14:01Z mbuf quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-29T05:14:12Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-04-29T05:16:28Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-29T05:17:13Z f3lp joined #lisp 2015-04-29T05:17:16Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-29T05:17:47Z thodg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-29T05:19:50Z Pastaf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T05:21:36Z EuAndreh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-29T05:23:06Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T05:24:24Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-04-29T05:24:25Z arpunk quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-29T05:24:36Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-04-29T05:24:46Z drmeister: beach: When a C++ function is called from Common Lisp and that function returns a C++ class instance then it allocates a new instance on the heap that is a copy of the instance returned and it manages the pointer to that object. 2015-04-29T05:24:57Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T05:25:34Z beach: drmeister: Thanks. 2015-04-29T05:25:44Z pillton: Zhivago: Right. Interesting. 2015-04-29T05:26:10Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-29T05:26:19Z beach: drmeister: And how does that pointer look to Common Lisp? 2015-04-29T05:26:36Z molbdnilo joined #lisp 2015-04-29T05:26:40Z drmeister: That hopefully won't happen too often and hopefully the objects returned aren't too large. 2015-04-29T05:26:43Z sheilong quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-29T05:26:52Z beach: Oh? 2015-04-29T05:27:24Z beach: I would think that such functionality would be totally fundamental. No? 2015-04-29T05:28:02Z molbdnilo quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-29T05:28:04Z drmeister: beach: Currently that pointer is stored in a boxed object on the heap and Common Lisp will own it, so if it gets collected the object that it points to will be collected as well. 2015-04-29T05:28:28Z drmeister: Well, with the Clang library it doesn't happen that often. It mostly returns pointers. 2015-04-29T05:28:32Z beach: OK, I am not very good at asking questions. 2015-04-29T05:28:57Z beach: drmeister: If I say (class-of x) where x is that pointer, what happens? 2015-04-29T05:29:33Z drmeister: This Clang class used to return all sorts of small objects by value but about two weeks ago they switched the API to return pointers. http://llvm.org/docs/doxygen/html/classllvm_1_1DIBuilder.html 2015-04-29T05:29:59Z beach: drmeister: Is that the reason you can't use STL? 2015-04-29T05:30:13Z beach: ... i.e., because it doesn't use pointers? 2015-04-29T05:30:20Z beach: Or did I misunderstand something? 2015-04-29T05:30:55Z drmeister: No, I can't use STL if the STL container contains pointers to Common Lisp objects. I can use it if the containers contain non-pointer data. 2015-04-29T05:30:59Z beach: I have tons of questions like this, so maybe it's better to do this some other time. 2015-04-29T05:31:55Z beach: But I can continue asking if you feel up to it. 2015-04-29T05:33:31Z beach: So "hopefully won't happen too often". Does this mean we encourage C++ to program with pointers these days? If so, what happens when Common Lisp calls C++ and C++ returns a reference to an object allocated on the stack? 2015-04-29T05:35:34Z drmeister: I don't recall what (class-of x) returns where x is that pointer - and my fumbling attempts to get DIBUILDER to generate one outside of the context of a compilation are not working. 2015-04-29T05:35:53Z beach: OK, some other time. 2015-04-29T05:36:02Z drmeister: If you ask me that one tomorrow or in a couple of days I can get it to work. 2015-04-29T05:36:15Z drmeister: It does work though. I use it to generate DWARF metadata. 2015-04-29T05:36:48Z beach: I have no doubts that it works. But this is what I mean when I ask "what problem does Clasp solve". 2015-04-29T05:37:16Z beach: I need to know what happens when I pass objects between C++ and Common Lisp, and I need to know what I am allowed to do with them. 2015-04-29T05:37:35Z drmeister: It seems like the LLVM library and the Clang library are moving to managing memory internally and returning pointers. They changed DIBuilder just a few weeks ago - it was quite a shock to me. 2015-04-29T05:38:32Z drmeister: I have these translate::to_object<...> and translate::from_object<...> template classes that translate individual C++ types to and from Common Lisp types. 2015-04-29T05:38:52Z beach: drmeister: Really? 2015-04-29T05:39:08Z drmeister: You can indicate if the pointer should be managed by Common Lisp or not. 2015-04-29T05:39:14Z beach: How does it translate some random C++ class (say Person) to Common Lisp? 2015-04-29T05:39:38Z beach: What does it mean for a pointer to be "managed" by Common Lisp? 2015-04-29T05:39:49Z beach: Like I said, tons of questions. 2015-04-29T05:40:29Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T05:40:50Z drmeister: Whether the thing to which it points is garbage collected or not when no more references exist to it from Common Lisp. 2015-04-29T05:41:38Z beach: How do I "indicate" that? 2015-04-29T05:41:41Z beach: In C++? 2015-04-29T05:41:50Z beach: When I call the function? 2015-04-29T05:42:26Z drmeister: My memory is a bit fuzzy because it's been more than a year since I wrote this stuff. Translating a Person to Common Lisp means something like a built-in class is created for it and you need accessor functions to access its internals. 2015-04-29T05:43:11Z beach: So, does this mean I am asking questions that are only marginally interesting, and that I should be doing something different? 2015-04-29T05:43:23Z drmeister: The to_object<...> template class takes two template parameters, the type being converted and a second argument that indicates if the resulting pointer is owned by Common Lisp or not. 2015-04-29T05:43:53Z beach: So I need to supplement existing C++ code for it to be used with Clasp? 2015-04-29T05:44:03Z beach: I can't just compile it and have it "managed" by Common Lisp? 2015-04-29T05:44:04Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-04-29T05:45:55Z beach: drmeister: I should let you go do whatever you need to do. 2015-04-29T05:46:07Z beach: I have too many questions for you to answer in real time I think. 2015-04-29T05:46:37Z drmeister: The wrapper code that is generated by the def("foo",&foo) calls supplements the existing C++ code - sure. 2015-04-29T05:47:09Z drmeister: But you don't have to write much code unless you want to do something special. 2015-04-29T05:47:37Z beach: This is the first time I hear about def("foo",&foo). Can I read about it somewhere? 2015-04-29T05:48:40Z drmeister: For instance - the Person C++ class - I might want to write a special translator that translates it into a list of (list person-name person-age person-gender) and not bother with accessors. It's not very efficient but there's a reason to do this now and again. 2015-04-29T05:49:03Z drmeister: That was in my paper. 2015-04-29T05:49:12Z drmeister: The one I submitted to ELS. 2015-04-29T05:49:19Z beach: I need to read it again. 2015-04-29T05:50:22Z drmeister: I use the C++ compiler + C++ template metaprogramming to do the heavy lifting of building wrapper code from function/method signatures. 2015-04-29T05:51:07Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-29T05:51:09Z beach: I see. 2015-04-29T05:52:23Z beach: The picture is getting clearer. Thanks. 2015-04-29T05:53:16Z drmeister: If I wanted to create something with Clasp's (intended) capabilities and had to start over again I might expose the Clang API to a Common Lisp, write code to extract all of this information from the C++ AST, build an FFI for the Clang API and the LLVM API, use the LLVM API to build an LLVM backend for the Common Lisp and fix the Common Lisp so that it works 2015-04-29T05:53:16Z drmeister: with C++ exception handling. setjmp/longjmp will break C++ code if you jump over C++ frames on the stack. 2015-04-29T05:55:17Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-29T05:55:42Z drmeister: Oh - there's also translating Common Lisp objects to C++ objects. It may be helpful that I wrote my Common Lisp in C++ because the underlying representation of Common Lisp objects is C++ objects so there may be less overhead for calling C++ functions. 2015-04-29T05:56:24Z drmeister: Maybe - I haven't thought of this. Could your Common Lisp be big-endian and C++ on the same system little-endian? 2015-04-29T05:57:12Z drmeister: Or could the floating point representation of a Common Lisp be different from the FP representation in C++? 2015-04-29T05:57:32Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-04-29T05:57:34Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-29T05:57:38Z beach: So how do you handle CHANGE-CLASS or updating existing Common Lisp instances when the class changes? 2015-04-29T05:58:02Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T05:58:03Z beach: ... if your Common Lisp objects are C++ objects. 2015-04-29T05:58:35Z drmeister: That's not allowed. They are represented as compact structs in memory. Clasp wouldn't know where to begin doing something like that. 2015-04-29T05:59:00Z drmeister: They are treated like builtin types. You can't change-class of CONS. 2015-04-29T05:59:03Z beach: Clasp doesn't allow change-class? 2015-04-29T05:59:15Z beach: right, of course. 2015-04-29T05:59:17Z drmeister: It doesn't allow it for builtin types 2015-04-29T05:59:26Z beach: Sure. 2015-04-29T05:59:52Z drmeister: change-class of Common Lisp defined CLOS classes works fine. 2015-04-29T05:59:57Z beach: But you said "the underlying representation of Common Lisp objects is C++ objects". 2015-04-29T06:00:20Z Ukari quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-29T06:00:29Z beach: So if I do (defclass person () ...), instances of person are C++ objects? 2015-04-29T06:00:33Z drmeister: CLOS classes and structs are instances of the C++ class Instance_O - it's just an array of pointers. 2015-04-29T06:01:01Z drmeister: With some other stuff attached to it. 2015-04-29T06:01:09Z beach: So if I have an instance of PERSON, and then I modify the class, what happens to that instance? 2015-04-29T06:01:17Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:01:48Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-29T06:01:51Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:02:12Z drmeister: Instance_O contains is-gf, array-of-pointers, class, signature 2015-04-29T06:03:31Z beach: So it's a C++ object, but that C++ object does not contain fields corresponding to the slots of the Common Lisp class? 2015-04-29T06:04:32Z beach: Or can I still do p -> name in C++ if p is an instance of the Common Lisp class PERSON? 2015-04-29T06:05:05Z drmeister: I'm a bit fuzzy on the details because it's all done by CLOS, which is written in Common Lisp and inherited from ECL. I think it loops over every instance of the class and creates a resized instance and copies slots and initializes those that aren't in the original. 2015-04-29T06:05:19Z alama joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:05:33Z beach: Hmm. 2015-04-29T06:05:56Z drmeister: It's a C++ object and that C++ object contains an array of slots and a few other things. 2015-04-29T06:06:01Z Adlai: that won't fix pointers at the un-updated instance 2015-04-29T06:06:20Z Adlai: (you described class redefinition, not change-class) 2015-04-29T06:07:06Z drmeister: Adlai: oh - I didn't realize there was a difference. 2015-04-29T06:07:07Z Adlai thinks, having butted in mid-conversation pre-coffee 2015-04-29T06:07:09Z drmeister: thinking... 2015-04-29T06:07:44Z drmeister: I see - right - I was describing something like class redefinition. 2015-04-29T06:07:57Z Zhivago: Presumably you would compile a new class and then make a new instance for each old instance, translate the data, and then rewrite the references, potentially via a lazy forwarding pointer or something? 2015-04-29T06:07:59Z drmeister: change-class works - I use it all the time in Cleavir - thinking... 2015-04-29T06:08:14Z Adlai: update-instance-for-{redefined,different}-class have confusingly similar names 2015-04-29T06:08:14Z xinau joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:08:17Z drmeister: Wouldn't it do the same thing but just for one instance? 2015-04-29T06:08:28Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:08:32Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-29T06:08:42Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:09:43Z drmeister: A difference between a Common Lisp class and a C++ class that is exposed to Common Lisp is the internal representation. 2015-04-29T06:09:59Z drmeister: Say I have a 3D vector of doubles (8-byte IEEE doubles). 2015-04-29T06:10:15Z sunwukong` joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:10:29Z drmeister: A Common Lisp class would create an instance containing three slots and each would point to a boxed double on the heap. 2015-04-29T06:10:37Z Adlai thinks it would be better to have C++ classes appear as something other than standard-class, which doesn't support redefinition; structs, or something else entirely 2015-04-29T06:10:53Z drmeister: A C++ class exposed to Common Lisp would probably represent it as a compact structure of three contiguous doubles. 2015-04-29T06:11:16Z x1n4u quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T06:11:35Z Adlai: CL structs have semantics much more similar to C++ classes 2015-04-29T06:12:11Z drmeister: Here's what this (clos::class-precedence-list (find-class 'llvm-sys:dibuilder)) gives me --> 2015-04-29T06:12:25Z drmeister: (# # #) 2015-04-29T06:12:41Z drmeister: llvm-sys::dibuilder is a C++ class provided by LLVM. 2015-04-29T06:13:21Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:13:24Z drmeister: Does this sound reasonable? 2015-04-29T06:13:24Z diginet quit (Quit: diginet has quit!) 2015-04-29T06:13:29Z Adlai: it does to me, instances of built-in-class don't need to support change-class 2015-04-29T06:13:41Z Adlai: or rather, instances of built-in-classes 2015-04-29T06:14:05Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:14:09Z Adlai: instances of built-in-class class metaclass objects 2015-04-29T06:14:10Z drmeister: It works. 2015-04-29T06:14:33Z joshe quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-29T06:14:40Z Adlai: ... how? 2015-04-29T06:15:33Z drmeister: I mean - I can dispatch on these classes and the garbage collector manages the ones that it needs to manage and I don't have to think to hard when I expose them to Common Lisp. 2015-04-29T06:16:07Z Adlai: ok, I thought you meant "[change-class] works [on instances of built-in-class metaclasses]" 2015-04-29T06:16:11Z drmeister: It's not like the bad old days when I was trying to write an FFI between my C++ classes and Python. 2015-04-29T06:16:40Z drmeister: No - sorry, change-class definitely does not work on these classes. Their structure is immutable. 2015-04-29T06:16:59Z Adlai: right. this sounds like a reasonable wrapping 2015-04-29T06:17:11Z drmeister: You would have to bring everything down, recompile the C++ code and then start everything up again to change those classes. 2015-04-29T06:19:01Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-29T06:19:21Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:19:22Z Zhivago: You could probably do it by lazily rewriting the instances, but that's expensive. 2015-04-29T06:20:24Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:22:01Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-29T06:23:00Z drmeister: The compact representation of C++ classes has good things about it (cache friendly) and bad things. 2015-04-29T06:24:11Z Adlai: it was likely not designed with either update-instance-for-redefined-class or change-class in mind :P 2015-04-29T06:24:15Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T06:25:16Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-29T06:25:45Z drmeister: No, no, no, neeeewwww 2015-04-29T06:27:04Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T06:27:20Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-04-29T06:27:28Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:27:36Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-29T06:27:39Z Zhivago: I'm not convinced that those are actually sensible things for a modern lisp to support. 2015-04-29T06:28:02Z drmeister: What are not sensible things for a modern lisp to support. 2015-04-29T06:28:25Z []}grant{ joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:28:25Z Zhivago: changing classes and updating instances dynamically. 2015-04-29T06:28:26Z []}grant{ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T06:28:53Z []}grant{ joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:29:24Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-29T06:29:39Z drmeister: Oh - well - I like it. It certainly makes it easier to write a compiler. 2015-04-29T06:29:54Z []}grant{ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T06:29:58Z Zhivago: Hmm, what's an example of what it makes easier? 2015-04-29T06:30:05Z Adlai: they're excellent for development, although verge upon being false friends when you rely on them to update state in a long-running app and end up with weird bugs that can't be reproduced when building from scratch 2015-04-29T06:30:08Z drmeister: Hang on. 2015-04-29T06:30:24Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:31:05Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:31:09Z drmeister: I currently use CHANGE-CLASS 15 times when I incorporated beach's wonderful Cleavir compiler into Clasp. 2015-04-29T06:31:16Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:33:06Z drmeister: I change Common Lisp AST nodes to other classes, I change instructions, I change several instances of Cleavir classes to classes that contain one or two more slots to annotate the structures that Cleavir gives me with a bit more information that I need. 2015-04-29T06:33:58Z drmeister: So you will pry CHANGE-CLASS from my cold, dead fingers. 2015-04-29T06:34:06Z Adlai: how about class redefinitions? 2015-04-29T06:34:12Z []}grant{ joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:34:20Z beach: drmeister: Interesting stuff. But it's time to get to work! 2015-04-29T06:34:22Z beach left #lisp 2015-04-29T06:34:45Z Adlai doesn't think those are useful, beyond being indispensable for iterative development 2015-04-29T06:35:14Z []}grant{ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T06:35:15Z Adlai: but class redefinition is the kind of feature which could reasonably be shaken out from production deployments 2015-04-29T06:36:20Z flash- joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:37:01Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-29T06:37:50Z drmeister: I haven't done class redefinitions very often, my REPLS don't tend to run for very long. But the next space ship that I install Common Lisp on will definitely have it. If I can't pull the plug on Hal, I'll want to open up a REPL and change a few of his classes. 2015-04-29T06:39:02Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T06:39:40Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:40:32Z Adlai: "I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't let you update-instance-for-redefined-class instances of #" doesn't quite have the cinematic ring to it 2015-04-29T06:40:52Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-29T06:41:35Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-29T06:42:04Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:42:12Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:42:34Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:42:36Z Shinmera: Adlai: Qtools uses class redefinition a lot. 2015-04-29T06:42:44Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:43:14Z Adlai: 'utilities to aid development' 2015-04-29T06:43:39Z Adlai is guessing classes don't get redefined at 'runtime' 2015-04-29T06:43:43Z Shinmera: Well it's more like its own toolkit by now 2015-04-29T06:43:53Z drmeister: Kubrick was a genius with understatement 2015-04-29T06:44:22Z Shinmera: Adlai: there's no "run time" in CL. 2015-04-29T06:44:52Z Adlai: none, or nothing but? 2015-04-29T06:45:22Z Shinmera: My point is arguing like this is dumb in the context of CL. 2015-04-29T06:46:12Z Adlai: practically speaking, in the implementations I've encountered, class redefinition seems to require (or would be unwise to perform without) a global lock 2015-04-29T06:46:12Z drmeister: I've got to say I really like the way my code is looking now that I added a List_sp smart pointer and I'm using the C++11 ranged-for. Here's traversing a list: 2015-04-29T06:46:18Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/i4rGkmBy 2015-04-29T06:46:27Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:49:01Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-29T06:49:37Z Adlai: so List_sp is an iterator? 2015-04-29T06:50:18Z isaac_rks joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:50:50Z drmeister: It's a template class that contains a single pointer that can either point to a Cons object or the SYMBOL NIL. 2015-04-29T06:52:10Z drmeister: I think the iterator is buried but "cur" is a Cons_sp, a template class that contains a pointer to a CONS cell and "cur" points to each successive CONS cell in the LIST. 2015-04-29T06:52:47Z drmeister: The mistake that I'm fixing (tedious) is I previously allowed Cons_sp pointers to point to NIL - BZZZP - Bad idea. 2015-04-29T06:52:58Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:54:14Z drmeister: What's nice about this is it can be very fast because I have a special tag for CONS cells and each iteration of the loop just has to check for the cons_tag to determine if it has to terminate the loop or not. Only then does it check if the iterator points to NIL. 2015-04-29T06:54:49Z Adlai spent too long looking for the recursive call 2015-04-29T06:55:01Z drmeister: with SAL9000's help we implemented all of this with C++ template programming and a new iterator. 2015-04-29T06:55:10Z drmeister: No recursion. 2015-04-29T06:55:20Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:55:20Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-29T06:55:32Z drmeister: I'm not sure how to do tail recursion within C++. 2015-04-29T06:57:15Z ehu: drmeister: tail recursion or TCO ? 2015-04-29T06:57:28Z ehu: (tail call optimization) 2015-04-29T06:58:05Z drmeister: Another distinction where I'm not aware of the difference. 2015-04-29T06:58:09Z drmeister: Must think... 2015-04-29T06:58:33Z H4ns: drmeister: tail call optimization is turning a tail call into a jump 2015-04-29T06:58:34Z drmeister: I guess in this specific case it would be tail recursion wouldn't it? 2015-04-29T06:58:49Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-29T06:58:49Z gniourf_gniourf quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-29T06:58:57Z drmeister: TCO is like a compiler switch where I tell Clasp to do TCO where-ever it can? 2015-04-29T06:59:52Z ehu: yea. you could put it under a certain (declaim '(optimize (speed XX))) level 2015-04-29T07:00:11Z drmeister: So tail-recursion just means I've got a call that when it returns the caller immediately returns and I could make it a jump? 2015-04-29T07:00:25Z SAL9000: yes. tail call optimization is the making it into a jump part 2015-04-29T07:00:36Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-29T07:00:47Z drmeister: Hi SAL9000! I was just thinking of you. 2015-04-29T07:00:51Z SAL9000: Hi :-) 2015-04-29T07:01:26Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-29T07:01:45Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T07:02:22Z drmeister: I was in the debugger and looking at the iterator and it looks like these ranged for loops are not using the consp test to test if the loop should advance but are actually checking for end() (NIL). 2015-04-29T07:02:41Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-29T07:03:03Z SAL9000: that's why I had the List_sp_iterator_nil "dummy value" 2015-04-29T07:03:05Z Bahman quit (Quit: Quit moping you embarrassing arse!) 2015-04-29T07:03:23Z drmeister: I'm have to remember to dig deeper once I get Clasp working again but the ranged for loops could be faster if they used the List_sp_iterator_nil the way you intended it to be used. 2015-04-29T07:03:37Z zacharias quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-29T07:03:50Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-29T07:04:20Z f3lp quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-29T07:04:21Z drmeister: Yeah - it's a bit of a head scratcher. But I may be doing something wrong or clang is not picking up the cues properly. 2015-04-29T07:04:59Z SAL9000: I'll take a look at the relevant header file tonight, see if I can get the _nil trick compiling at least 2015-04-29T07:05:10Z SAL9000: or do you mean that it's compiling but never being used? 2015-04-29T07:06:51Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-29T07:06:51Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-04-29T07:06:51Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-29T07:07:17Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-29T07:08:36Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-29T07:08:50Z drmeister: It's compiling but not being used. 2015-04-29T07:09:26Z drmeister: Or - it was compiling before I ripped the guts out of Clasp to convert many Cons_sp variables to List_sp 2015-04-29T07:10:13Z SAL9000: drmeister: I think I know why it's not being used -- because List_sp_iterator_nil is a List_sp_iterator. 2015-04-29T07:10:28Z SAL9000: maybe it should be class List_sp_iterator : public List_sp_iterator_nil {...} 2015-04-29T07:11:21Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-29T07:11:47Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-29T07:12:08Z drmeister: This is symptomatic of the problem with this C++ template programming nonsense. It's these subtle clues you have to give to the compiler to get it to behave the way you want. The programmers intention is diluted by so much boilerplate. 2015-04-29T07:13:54Z drmeister: I'd have to think hard if that is the problem but once I get Clasp to compile again I can run some tests. 2015-04-29T07:14:17Z drmeister: The simplest one is to use int*** foo = bar to generate a compile time error that tells you what the type of "bar" is. 2015-04-29T07:15:55Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-04-29T07:16:08Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-29T07:19:03Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-29T07:25:37Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-29T07:25:42Z pranavrc_ joined #lisp 2015-04-29T07:26:17Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T07:26:21Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-04-29T07:26:28Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-29T07:28:57Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-04-29T07:31:00Z flash- quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-29T07:31:52Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-04-29T07:32:41Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T07:33:42Z isaac_rks quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Googling around gets me examples from a couple of years ago (or "just use Clojure") so the status quo isn't clear to me. 2015-04-29T08:49:14Z chrnybo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-29T08:49:29Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T08:49:29Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T08:49:35Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-29T08:50:02Z dim: aerique: https://github.com/mtravers/heroku-buildpack-cl 2015-04-29T08:50:15Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-04-29T08:50:19Z ehu: aerique: I've used abcl on google app engine as an experiment. it's too slow to start up. 2015-04-29T08:50:22Z aerique: dim: just came across this one https://github.com/avodonosov/heroku-buildpack-cl2 2015-04-29T08:50:30Z przl_ joined #lisp 2015-04-29T08:51:10Z ehu: (up to 19 seconds to start up the bare environment; no huge libraries loaded) 2015-04-29T08:51:28Z ehu: which is no problem if you have a busy site that doesn't get side-lined. 2015-04-29T08:51:53Z ehu: but it is a problem if your site has only a few visits per day. 2015-04-29T08:51:56Z aerique: I'm mostly curious whether mtravers solution is still applicable. 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There are a few things in quicklisp, and another set of suggestions in the "commonly used libraries" in the cliki. 2015-04-29T11:10:50Z Xach: Cymew: "work with" in what sense? 2015-04-29T11:10:59Z Xach: To unzip them? 2015-04-29T11:11:00Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T11:11:48Z devll` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-29T11:11:50Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-29T11:12:23Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-04-29T11:13:05Z Xach: Cymew: anyway, i use salza2 to compress and deflate to uncompress 2015-04-29T11:16:14Z Cymew: unzip mostly, yes 2015-04-29T11:16:22Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-04-29T11:16:50Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-29T11:17:12Z drocha joined #lisp 2015-04-29T11:17:25Z Cymew: It's kind of amazing how spoiled I have become with quicklisp. I'm so used to get grab whatever is in there to solve all your needs... 2015-04-29T11:17:56Z Xach cackles, rubs hands, thinks of Phase 2 2015-04-29T11:17:59Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T11:19:07Z Cymew: :) 2015-04-29T11:19:22Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T11:19:42Z Cymew: Xach: deflate, would that be chipz, or is there another library doing deflation? 2015-04-29T11:20:01Z Xach: Cymew: it is called "Deflate". it is by pierre mai. it is distinct from chipz. chipz works well also. 2015-04-29T11:20:35Z Xach: I prefer deflate because in my testing it was a little faster. It is also simpler, just a single file. 2015-04-29T11:20:42Z Cymew: Ok, now we are getting really weird here, stepping outside the confined garden of cliki/quicklisp... 2015-04-29T11:20:58Z Cymew: Sounds like it would suit me, though. Thanks for the hint! 2015-04-29T11:21:00Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T11:21:23Z axion: Xach: did you ever reject cl-tga? It's rather old, useful, and i noticed it wasn't in quicklisp yet 2015-04-29T11:21:31Z axion: regardless, i opened an issue :) 2015-04-29T11:24:01Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T11:24:11Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-04-29T11:24:38Z Xach: axion: it has been added 2015-04-29T11:24:52Z Xach: Cymew: for what? deflate is part of quicklisp. 2015-04-29T11:26:27Z theBlackDragon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T11:26:47Z axion: Xach: under what name? 2015-04-29T11:28:20Z Xach: axion: cl-tga. it will be available in the next release. 2015-04-29T11:28:28Z axion: oh ok. thanks :) 2015-04-29T11:29:44Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-29T11:29:50Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-29T11:31:01Z Cymew: Xach: Right, I'm not thinking. I was expecting emacs style apropos to give me everything even remotely like what it was I was "apropos"ing for... 2015-04-29T11:31:11Z Cymew: Forgot I searched for gzip 2015-04-29T11:35:12Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2015-04-29T11:36:17Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-29T11:37:14Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-29T11:38:31Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-29T11:42:26Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-29T11:42:49Z oldk quit (Quit: AtomicIRC: The nuclear option.) 2015-04-29T11:43:49Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-29T11:47:27Z Cymew: Hmm. Would have been nice with an example of usage. Good the source was short. 2015-04-29T11:49:41Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-29T11:53:15Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T11:55:28Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-29T11:55:57Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-04-29T11:56:03Z axion: how do i open a file as a binary input stream? 2015-04-29T11:56:35Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-29T11:56:51Z Xach: axion: (open file :direction :output :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) -- usually you'd use the with-open-file variant. 2015-04-29T11:57:09Z Xach: (with-open-file (stream file :direction :output :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :if-exists :supersede) ...) 2015-04-29T11:57:26Z Xach: the :if-exists option has many options, what you prefer may vary. see l1sp.org/cl/open for details. 2015-04-29T11:57:42Z axion: thanks 2015-04-29T11:58:57Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-29T11:58:57Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-29T11:59:14Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T11:59:45Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-04-29T12:00:51Z Cymew: Wonderful to how to juggle stream types. Those always makes me dizzy. 2015-04-29T12:01:38Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-29T12:02:14Z samnmax joined #lisp 2015-04-29T12:02:18Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-29T12:02:59Z Xach: There are two very common element-type cases: don't specify (so you get a character stream) or (unsigned-byte 8) 2015-04-29T12:03:44Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-29T12:04:24Z Cymew: Yeah, and I'm so stuck in the world of character streams that I've totally forgotten which macors and functions that choke on binary streams or the other way around. 2015-04-29T12:04:25Z axion: nice deflate works 2015-04-29T12:04:38Z Cymew: No luck for me yet 2015-04-29T12:04:40Z axion: however, i wonder if i can deflate in place without clobbering 2015-04-29T12:05:07Z drocha quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-29T12:05:08Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-04-29T12:05:19Z Xach: axion: i don't understand what that might mean, but "in place" often implies "clobbering" 2015-04-29T12:05:36Z axion: i just meant to behave like the binary "gunzip" 2015-04-29T12:05:56Z Xach: that unzips to a temporary file and then renames. 2015-04-29T12:06:04Z axion: ok 2015-04-29T12:06:16Z Xach: if you interrupt it, it deletes the temp file. 2015-04-29T12:06:24Z Xach: you are not left with a half-inflated file 2015-04-29T12:07:18Z Cymew: gunzip does lots of weird stuff 2015-04-29T12:07:41Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-29T12:07:48Z Xach: I hadn't noticed. 2015-04-29T12:07:50Z axion: that begs the question: is there a portable way to rename a file without a library? 2015-04-29T12:08:06Z Cymew: axion: check uiop 2015-04-29T12:08:07Z Xach: axion: rename-file is one easy way. 2015-04-29T12:08:11Z Xach: it is standard. 2015-04-29T12:08:16Z axion: nice 2015-04-29T12:08:16Z Cymew: Even better 2015-04-29T12:09:46Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-29T12:13:00Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-29T12:13:46Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-04-29T12:13:54Z Xach: rename-file has defaulting behavior that you have to know to avoid surprises. 2015-04-29T12:14:08Z theBlackDragon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T12:14:12Z Xach: (rename-file "foo.txt" "bar") usually results in "bar.txt", not "bar". 2015-04-29T12:14:25Z Xach: it can be handy if you know what to expect. 2015-04-29T12:14:56Z H4ns: i'd say that the lisp pathname system is full of surprises if you don't know that it exists. 2015-04-29T12:15:15Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T12:16:45Z thodg joined #lisp 2015-04-29T12:17:05Z Xach: I think you can operate for quite a long time with a mental model that does not match the underlying model. That can give you false confidence that you know what to expect in all cases. 2015-04-29T12:17:38Z axion: speaking of. is there a format directive to print a pathname instead of a string? 2015-04-29T12:18:15Z Xach: axion: with a #P prefix and all? 2015-04-29T12:18:21Z axion: yes 2015-04-29T12:18:26Z Xach: axion: ~S will do that. 2015-04-29T12:18:58Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T12:19:01Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T12:19:56Z axion: hmm that seems to be escaping stuff 2015-04-29T12:20:04Z H4ns: see 2015-04-29T12:20:05Z H4ns: ? 2015-04-29T12:20:20Z Xach: axion: In what way? 2015-04-29T12:20:22Z axion: (format nil "~S.tmp" #p"/1.test") => "#P\"/1.test\".tmp" 2015-04-29T12:20:23Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-04-29T12:21:52Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-29T12:21:53Z Xach: axion: if you are trying to get a pathname that is similar to the original, but that has an indicator that it is temporary, i would use (make-pathname :type (format nil "~A-temp" (pathname-type file)) :defaults file) 2015-04-29T12:21:55Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-04-29T12:22:01Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T12:22:22Z axion: ah ok 2015-04-29T12:23:32Z Xach: and when i want to make sure it's temporary, i open with :if-exists nil, check the stream value, and use a counter to try a new temporary name if necessary. 2015-04-29T12:25:25Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-29T12:25:33Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-29T12:27:44Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-29T12:28:05Z datum joined #lisp 2015-04-29T12:30:06Z beamed_down is now known as Beamed 2015-04-29T12:30:14Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-29T12:32:58Z yang quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-29T12:33:55Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T12:34:23Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-04-29T12:35:17Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-04-29T12:35:38Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-29T12:36:16Z datum quit 2015-04-29T12:39:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T12:39:07Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-04-29T12:39:40Z gotmeabeard quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-29T12:40:21Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T12:40:54Z yang joined #lisp 2015-04-29T12:44:07Z isaac_rks quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-29T12:44:42Z salva: Is there any function in CL for cutting a list in two destructively given the cutting-point position? 2015-04-29T12:45:06Z pjb: (setf (cdr (nthcdr (1- cp) list)) nil) 2015-04-29T12:45:46Z Xach: salva: not built-in. 2015-04-29T12:46:00Z H4ns: salva: you could use nthcdr and (setf (cdr ...)) 2015-04-29T12:46:30Z alchemis7 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-29T12:46:44Z salva: sure, I can write it myself... actually I already have 2015-04-29T12:46:50Z jackdaniel: /win 14 2015-04-29T12:47:49Z Xach: salva: i get really excited whenever i can use LDIFF, but this seems like it is not quite the right situation for it. 2015-04-29T12:47:50Z salva: I just wanted to be sure it was not already available as a built-in 2015-04-29T12:53:17Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-04-29T12:55:58Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-29T12:57:19Z pranavrc_ joined #lisp 2015-04-29T12:57:37Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-04-29T12:58:17Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T12:58:42Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T13:00:26Z Jaskologist_ joined #lisp 2015-04-29T13:01:16Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-29T13:01:41Z ir2ivps quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-29T13:02:48Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-29T13:03:40Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-29T13:04:54Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-29T13:07:17Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-04-29T13:07:35Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-04-29T13:08:05Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-04-29T13:09:35Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-04-29T13:09:50Z pranavrc_ quit 2015-04-29T13:09:51Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-04-29T13:10:21Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-04-29T13:12:46Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-29T13:13:46Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-29T13:15:45Z sunwukong` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-29T13:16:19Z sunwukong` joined #lisp 2015-04-29T13:16:30Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-29T13:18:57Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-29T13:23:36Z linkcr joined #lisp 2015-04-29T13:26:05Z Beamed left #lisp 2015-04-29T13:26:24Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-29T13:27:22Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T13:27:25Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-04-29T13:28:33Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-04-29T13:30:52Z failproofshark: morfning 2015-04-29T13:33:01Z ir2ivps joined #lisp 2015-04-29T13:33:56Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-29T13:34:08Z Ukari quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-29T13:34:15Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T13:39:55Z agumonkey quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-29T13:45:59Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-29T13:46:16Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-04-29T13:47:20Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2015-04-29T13:47:36Z przl_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-29T13:50:43Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-29T13:53:57Z oleo: hellooo 2015-04-29T14:00:14Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T14:01:57Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-29T14:02:36Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T14:02:37Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-04-29T14:03:07Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-04-29T14:03:13Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-29T14:03:13Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-04-29T14:03:13Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-04-29T14:03:45Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-29T14:04:05Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-29T14:06:26Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-04-29T14:07:09Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-29T14:07:27Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-04-29T14:08:20Z Xach is excited about Edi's book 2015-04-29T14:08:32Z Cymew: ? 2015-04-29T14:09:08Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-29T14:10:05Z Xach: What do you want to know? 2015-04-29T14:11:59Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-29T14:13:04Z Xach: Everything I know I linked to or wrote about on http://lispblog.xach.com/ 2015-04-29T14:13:12Z kami joined #lisp 2015-04-29T14:13:59Z kp666 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T14:15:28Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-29T14:15:31Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-29T14:15:37Z jackdaniel: sounds fantastic :-) 2015-04-29T14:17:37Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-29T14:19:10Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T14:19:33Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-29T14:20:40Z baotiao quit (Quit: baotiao) 2015-04-29T14:20:42Z Cymew: Just went out and checked the blogs 2015-04-29T14:20:51Z Cymew: Sounds like excellent news 2015-04-29T14:23:32Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T14:23:49Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-29T14:27:36Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T14:28:44Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T14:29:13Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-29T14:31:10Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-04-29T14:32:21Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-04-29T14:37:07Z zeitue quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-29T14:38:28Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-29T14:39:19Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-29T14:43:24Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-29T14:45:23Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T14:46:30Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T14:46:58Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-29T14:50:20Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T14:50:24Z failproofshark: Xach: that sounds awesome 2015-04-29T14:50:29Z Jaskologist_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-29T14:51:37Z askatasuna quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-29T14:52:07Z antgreen` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T14:52:40Z antgreen joined #lisp 2015-04-29T14:52:45Z akkad: clhs walk-directory 2015-04-29T14:52:45Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for walk-directory. 2015-04-29T14:54:35Z failproofshark: akkad: walk-directory is a cl-fad function i think 2015-04-29T14:54:41Z failproofshark: or at least, thats the only place ive seen it 2015-04-29T14:55:00Z failproofshark: http://weitz.de/cl-fad/#walk-directory 2015-04-29T14:57:45Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-04-29T14:58:33Z Ethan- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T14:58:52Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-04-29T14:59:44Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-29T15:03:17Z joshe joined #lisp 2015-04-29T15:04:52Z kami: Xach: I am trying ql:bundle-systems. It seems to fail with systems which depend on asdf. 2015-04-29T15:06:44Z kami: (ql:bundle-systems '("hu.dwim.asdf") :to "/tmp/test") -> System "asdf" not found 2015-04-29T15:07:05Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-04-29T15:07:52Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T15:08:35Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T15:08:43Z Xach: kami: thanks for testing. ouch! i'll try to fix that. 2015-04-29T15:09:22Z kami: Xach: thank you 2015-04-29T15:09:48Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T15:10:33Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T15:10:35Z Xach: i opened https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/issues/116 for tracking 2015-04-29T15:11:54Z Brozo quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-04-29T15:12:01Z kami: Xach: just subscribed. 2015-04-29T15:14:49Z H4ns: akkad: in many cases, you can get away with a :wild-inferiors directory wildcard 2015-04-29T15:15:23Z Xach: http://xach.com/img/wild-inferiors.png 2015-04-29T15:15:47Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T15:15:48Z H4ns: akkad: (directory #P"/etc/**/*.conf") 2015-04-29T15:16:36Z Guest95871 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-29T15:16:47Z Shinmera: Xach: haha, nice 2015-04-29T15:17:15Z Xach ponders a t-shirt 2015-04-29T15:17:23Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-04-29T15:18:14Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T15:19:15Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T15:19:54Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-29T15:20:04Z beach joined #lisp 2015-04-29T15:20:15Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2015-04-29T15:20:40Z beach: Xach: Where can I learn about Edi's book? 2015-04-29T15:20:53Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-29T15:21:07Z failproofshark: greetings beach 2015-04-29T15:21:40Z Xach: beach: the link i gave has some info and some links to more info 2015-04-29T15:21:57Z linkcr quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-29T15:22:01Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T15:22:58Z Xach should make a tool out of the program that produced http://xach.com/img/cl-animationion.gif 2015-04-29T15:23:33Z H4ns: nifty! 2015-04-29T15:24:00Z beach: Xach: Right. Missed it initially. Sorry about that. Got it now. 2015-04-29T15:26:11Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-04-29T15:26:46Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T15:27:10Z nyef: ... There has to be a joke about :wild-inferiors and "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" somehow, but I'm not coming up with one. 2015-04-29T15:27:40Z beach: nyef: What are you working on these days? Lisp-related, I mean. 2015-04-29T15:28:56Z nyef: It's a bit tangential, but... trying to get Linux to run on an IP35 SGI machine. 2015-04-29T15:29:24Z beach: You have been working on that in the past as I recall, no? 2015-04-29T15:29:34Z nyef: Yes. 2015-04-29T15:29:47Z nyef: Somewhat off-and-on, for a variety of reasons. 2015-04-29T15:30:57Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-29T15:34:20Z linkcr joined #lisp 2015-04-29T15:36:13Z badkins quit 2015-04-29T15:40:54Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-29T15:41:31Z antgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T15:42:17Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-04-29T15:50:40Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-29T15:52:15Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T15:52:37Z akkad: nyef what supports ip35? openbsd? 2015-04-29T15:53:16Z munksgaa1d joined #lisp 2015-04-29T15:53:57Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T15:54:06Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-29T15:55:48Z nyef: akkad: Currently, just IRIX and OpenBSD, yes. I could run my O300 as a single-processor diskless node at this point, but I'd really like to have the drive controller working. 2015-04-29T15:56:47Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T15:57:10Z nyef: It's weird. 32-bit page-mapped DMA "works" with the disk controller. 32-bit direct-mapped DMA doesn't, and 64-bit direct-mapped DMA doesn't. 2015-04-29T15:57:50Z kraison joined #lisp 2015-04-29T16:04:24Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-29T16:04:50Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-29T16:05:05Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-29T16:05:43Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-29T16:06:40Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T16:06:45Z x1n4u quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-29T16:07:36Z shka joined #lisp 2015-04-29T16:08:24Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-29T16:08:30Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-29T16:10:10Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-29T16:10:11Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-29T16:13:22Z pavelpenev quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T16:13:38Z f3lp joined #lisp 2015-04-29T16:17:15Z w37 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T16:20:36Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-29T16:20:52Z roang joined #lisp 2015-04-29T16:25:43Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T16:28:31Z logand``` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T16:33:31Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-04-29T16:34:53Z rhllor joined #lisp 2015-04-29T16:44:47Z tacoman joined #lisp 2015-04-29T16:44:48Z roang quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T16:45:06Z linkcr quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-29T16:45:33Z slimetree joined #lisp 2015-04-29T16:48:00Z arrdem_ joined #lisp 2015-04-29T16:48:00Z arrdem_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-29T16:49:28Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2015-04-29T16:49:34Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-29T16:51:12Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2015-04-29T16:54:27Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-04-29T16:54:27Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-29T16:54:44Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-29T16:55:42Z fsvehla quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-29T16:57:25Z slimetree quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-29T16:59:27Z psy_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-29T17:00:02Z molbdnilo joined #lisp 2015-04-29T17:02:31Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T17:03:19Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2015-04-29T17:03:27Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T17:03:27Z akkad: nyef nice 2015-04-29T17:03:30Z akkad: big metal boxes covered in plastic 2015-04-29T17:04:19Z nyef: So fare I only have ones that are covered with about a 3-inch by 19-inch chunk of plastic. 2015-04-29T17:04:25Z tPuffinBi joined #lisp 2015-04-29T17:04:42Z nyef: ... Or is 19 inches the depth? I forget. 2015-04-29T17:04:46Z kraison quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-29T17:05:03Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-29T17:05:05Z roang joined #lisp 2015-04-29T17:05:34Z akkad: would love an sgi rackmount 2015-04-29T17:06:01Z fsvehla quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-29T17:07:59Z molbdnilo quit (Quit: molbdnilo) 2015-04-29T17:08:00Z linkcr joined #lisp 2015-04-29T17:09:01Z PuercoPop: The method find-document doesn't compile and I'm having trouble determining the cause of the error. I think it is related with the query macro. The basic idea of the function is to translate a regexp and a list of names (contained in a class) to an optima class pattern, which has the form (class-name :slot1 value1 :slot2 value2) and then running the query against the db, which amounts to collecting all the values in 2015-04-29T17:09:02Z PuercoPop: a hashtable which optima sucessfully matches . Any glaring mistakes or pointers of what might be wrong? http://paste.lisp.org/display/147645 2015-04-29T17:09:16Z tPuffinBi quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-29T17:09:32Z PuercoPop: *that match sucessfully to the optima pattern 2015-04-29T17:09:51Z molbdnilo joined #lisp 2015-04-29T17:10:13Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Also expect the pattern to be created at runtime, so I would expect an error to happen at runtime not compile time. 2015-04-29T17:39:26Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-29T17:39:55Z pjb: PuercoPop: PATTERN is not a list, it's a symbol. 2015-04-29T17:40:17Z pjb: The error is in the form: (QUERY PATTERN DB) 2015-04-29T17:40:52Z pjb: The macro query calls: (expand-pattern pattern), and expand-pattern calls: (car pattern) 2015-04-29T17:41:11Z pjb: in the macro query, the parameter pattern is bound to the symbol PATTERN. 2015-04-29T17:41:26Z pjb: in the function expand-pattern, the parameter pattern is bound to the symbol PATTERN. 2015-04-29T17:41:35Z pjb: There is no list there! 2015-04-29T17:43:26Z pjb: PuercoPop: there's no reason to consider construct-query, since it doesn't appear in the backtrace! 2015-04-29T17:43:29Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2015-04-29T17:44:27Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T17:47:11Z PuercoPop: ok, I think I see what ou are getting at. So the solution would be to evaluated expand-pattern at runtime right? something akin to: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147645#1 2015-04-29T17:49:24Z beach left #lisp 2015-04-29T17:50:46Z pjb: ,(expand-pattern pattern) is still wrong, if you want to pass a run-time variable as parameter to query. 2015-04-29T17:51:08Z sjas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T17:51:18Z hcp_ joined #lisp 2015-04-29T17:51:26Z pjb: PuercoPop: clearly, there's no reason for query to be a macro. Rewrite it as a function! 2015-04-29T17:52:23Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-04-29T17:56:47Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-29T17:57:04Z PuercoPop: pjb: Thanks for your help! Yeah in fact I had written previously as a function but attempted to write as a macro to avoid the quoting the pattern. I'll return to that version in the meantime. 2015-04-29T17:58:03Z pjb: When you do that, just keep the function. 2015-04-29T17:58:05Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-29T17:58:33Z pjb: (defmacro query (pattern db) `(query* ',pattern ,db)) 2015-04-29T18:00:39Z munksgaa1d quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-29T18:01:27Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:02:26Z ggole quit 2015-04-29T18:07:35Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-29T18:07:54Z Denommus quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-29T18:08:15Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-29T18:08:16Z roang joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:09:14Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:10:05Z Jesin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-29T18:11:19Z leafybasil quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-29T18:11:27Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:14:19Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-29T18:15:20Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:16:02Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:17:16Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T18:18:05Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:19:56Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:22:44Z linkcr quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-29T18:25:12Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:25:21Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-29T18:28:53Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-29T18:28:53Z a2015_ joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:30:17Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-29T18:31:22Z dstatyvka joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:32:58Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T18:33:38Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:33:38Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:33:59Z linkcr joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:34:24Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:35:21Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:38:04Z flash- joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:38:17Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T18:38:34Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:38:41Z RenRenJuan quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-29T18:39:30Z netytan joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:40:24Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T18:41:57Z RenRenJuan joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:42:40Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:43:10Z francogrex: i wonder are all the current implementations shipping with asdf3 or 2 or a mix? 2015-04-29T18:43:31Z Shinmera: A bunch are shipping 2, sadly. 2015-04-29T18:43:34Z molbdnilo quit (Quit: molbdnilo) 2015-04-29T18:43:43Z francogrex: i thought so 2015-04-29T18:43:47Z Shinmera: CLISP and LispWorks, and I think ECL being the ones I know of. 2015-04-29T18:44:10Z akkad: LW 7 will have 3 right? 2015-04-29T18:44:57Z slimetree quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-29T18:46:38Z francogrex: it's not a big deal I suppose cause one can have whatever asdf they wish, but still it's better when they're all aligned 2015-04-29T18:47:13Z Shinmera: You can't have whatever asdf you wish if you provide a lib, which makes things annoying. 2015-04-29T18:47:57Z Shinmera: Sure, it's easy for the end-user to remedy that problem, but it's still a potentially confusing error message and non-trivial solution to figure out. 2015-04-29T18:48:08Z francogrex: it actually took me time to realize that the errors I was getting with some were actually due to that discrepancy 2015-04-29T18:48:18Z Shinmera: Yeah, exactly. 2015-04-29T18:49:53Z Longlius quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-29T18:50:37Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:50:56Z Xach: I will probably update ASDF in Quicklisp sometime soon. 2015-04-29T18:51:07Z Shinmera: I was just to ask you about that once more 2015-04-29T18:51:19Z Shinmera: *just about to 2015-04-29T18:52:56Z paddymahoney joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:53:35Z linkcr quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T18:55:05Z a2015_: Xach: great work with bundles 2015-04-29T18:55:15Z a2015_: Xach: Thanks 2015-04-29T18:55:36Z zhuyue joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:55:38Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-04-29T18:56:09Z molbdnilo joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:56:13Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-29T18:57:44Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-04-29T18:57:53Z Xach: a2015_: thanks. still some kinks to work out, but I hope they are useful. 2015-04-29T19:06:10Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-29T19:13:34Z pavelpenev gets exited about new lisp book, checks release date, gets bummed out. 2015-04-29T19:13:58Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T19:14:22Z bin7me quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-29T19:14:23Z Shinmera: In lisp time, that release is just a few hours away! 2015-04-29T19:14:31Z oleo: which book ? 2015-04-29T19:14:33Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T19:14:43Z Shinmera: http://www.amazon.com/Common-LISP-Recipes-Problem-Solution-Approach/dp/1484211774/ref=zg_bs_3981_2 2015-04-29T19:15:18Z pavelpenev: Shinmera: yes, lisp books tend to be timeless :) 2015-04-29T19:15:40Z Xach: oleo: where do you primarily get your lisp news? from #lisp? 2015-04-29T19:15:55Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-04-29T19:15:56Z RenRenJuan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-29T19:16:06Z oleo: yes 2015-04-29T19:16:12Z pavelpenev: PCL recently turned 10 years old, right? Still great. 2015-04-29T19:16:13Z Xach: ok 2015-04-29T19:16:30Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T19:16:34Z oleo: well i have found a common-lisp community in g+ but ...... 2015-04-29T19:16:34Z Xach: pavelpenev: i still find it jarring that most of the examples discuss east and west germany though 2015-04-29T19:16:38Z oleo: seems not much active 2015-04-29T19:16:52Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-04-29T19:18:40Z RenRenJuan joined #lisp 2015-04-29T19:19:06Z oleo: wished there was an indepth book about mcclim..... 2015-04-29T19:19:15Z Xach: mcclim ist tot 2015-04-29T19:19:21Z oleo: nope 2015-04-29T19:20:48Z oleo: it maybe that qt is more advanced etc... more performant or so, doesn't make mcclim tot for me.... 2015-04-29T19:21:27Z tacoman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T19:21:40Z pavelpenev: oleo: isn't mcclim very buggy? and hasn't clim(the spec) not aged well at all? 2015-04-29T19:22:03Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-29T19:22:07Z Xach: oleo: perhaps you are a necrophiliac 2015-04-29T19:22:09Z oleo: pavelpenev: well it works 80-90 % 2015-04-29T19:22:42Z pavelpenev: I'd lose my job if my software performed that way 2015-04-29T19:23:25Z oleo: pavelpenev: it works that way cause i can't make out the rest of it from just the spec..... 2015-04-29T19:23:49Z oleo: pavelpenev: if you ask if the spec is sane.....i'm not the one to answer that anyway.... i didn't design it.... 2015-04-29T19:24:48Z pavelpenev: oleo: I have 3 dreams 1) explore space 2) build a house in the woods 3) implement an awesome lisp GUI framework that doesn't rely on c/c++ libraries. I think I can get the first two in a lifetime :) 2015-04-29T19:24:50Z failproofshark: some guys like they're partners smoken hot 2015-04-29T19:24:51Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T19:24:55Z failproofshark: others like them dead cold i suppose 2015-04-29T19:25:36Z oleo: pavelpenev: see that's what i mean, i don't have anything against qt/c++ based frameworks too, you'd basically invest the same amount of time and effort in there too.... 2015-04-29T19:26:11Z Shinmera: I don't like Qt, but I'll still stand firm by my judgement that it's currently the best option for native GUIs in CL. 2015-04-29T19:26:36Z oGMo: eh, cl-cffi-gtk3 is pretty good 2015-04-29T19:26:46Z nyef: The CLIM spec is designed so that you should, in theory, be able to implement a Qt or GTK backend for CLIM. 2015-04-29T19:26:55Z oleo: ha! 2015-04-29T19:27:01Z francogrex: implement an awesome lisp GUI framework that doesn't rely on c/c++ libraries << use a lisp machine 2015-04-29T19:28:08Z oleo: interfacing to c/c++ is ok.... 2015-04-29T19:28:32Z oGMo: impossible to avoid (your OS and gui is C), and why avoid it 2015-04-29T19:28:40Z oleo: as long as the framework is in lisp..... 2015-04-29T19:28:48Z francogrex: once the library is compiled it's no longer C/C++ or anything, it's just machine code 2015-04-29T19:28:51Z pavelpenev: francogrex: I would, but unfortunately professional user workstations lost to cheap wintel PCs. 2015-04-29T19:29:23Z pavelpenev: oGMo: x protocol? 2015-04-29T19:29:31Z oGMo: pavelpenev: what? 2015-04-29T19:29:43Z pavelpenev: oGMo: X is language independent 2015-04-29T19:29:53Z oleo: if lisp is that powerfull you'd use lisp! 2015-04-29T19:30:16Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T19:30:26Z francogrex: of course it's powerful as much as anything else 2015-04-29T19:30:32Z oGMo: pavelpenev: both irrelevant and untrue, since most interesting stuff these days is GL, which is not language-independent 2015-04-29T19:30:34Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T19:30:39Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-04-29T19:30:40Z nyef: Some aspects of the X wire protocol were specifically designed with Lisp environments in mind. 2015-04-29T19:30:41Z oGMo: GL -> GLX 2015-04-29T19:30:45Z francogrex: but like what you said, why reinvent the wheel for what purpose 2015-04-29T19:30:56Z nyef: Little things, like the resource IDs being CARD29, to allow room for fixnum tag bits. 2015-04-29T19:31:14Z oGMo: and you can't talk to glx without -lX11 api, etc 2015-04-29T19:31:30Z oGMo: nyef: clx is quite an interesting read, too 2015-04-29T19:31:33Z pavelpenev: oGMo: my hypotetical library wouldn't care if gnomes drew the GUI with crayons 2015-04-29T19:31:35Z Xach: nyef: i have an 80s reference book by jim gettys that says exactly that. 2015-04-29T19:31:55Z nyef: And yeah, the GLX wire protocol is stuck at about 1.3, after that you need to use a local rendering context at which point you're tied to the graphics card / rendering APIs. 2015-04-29T19:32:18Z nyef: 'x 2015-04-29T19:32:24Z RenRenJuan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-29T19:32:33Z nyef: Xach: I possibly just got rid of my copy of that book, whatever book it might be. 2015-04-29T19:33:13Z nyef: "Am I going to be doing much more work with X11 directly? Possibly not. And even if I am, the online documentation is more than sufficient. Toss the paper." 2015-04-29T19:33:44Z Xach: I bought it because it was, improbably, at the local goodwill for $1. 2015-04-29T19:33:55Z Xach: I should probably find a new home for it, too. 2015-04-29T19:35:15Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-29T19:35:51Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-29T19:37:57Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T19:38:34Z francogrex quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T19:38:34Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-29T19:41:17Z RenRenJuan joined #lisp 2015-04-29T19:41:44Z netytan quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-29T19:44:46Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-29T19:45:19Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-29T19:46:36Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-04-29T19:50:36Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-29T19:51:17Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-04-29T19:53:03Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T19:55:09Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T19:56:10Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-29T19:57:13Z protist quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-29T20:00:58Z antgreen joined #lisp 2015-04-29T20:03:29Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-29T20:03:32Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T20:06:42Z fikusz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-29T20:07:21Z roang quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T20:08:51Z molbdnilo quit (Quit: molbdnilo) 2015-04-29T20:09:02Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-29T20:09:23Z molbdnilo joined #lisp 2015-04-29T20:09:30Z guaqua``` is now known as guaqua 2015-04-29T20:09:36Z molbdnilo quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-29T20:10:19Z fikusz joined #lisp 2015-04-29T20:10:48Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T20:12:50Z munksgaa1d joined #lisp 2015-04-29T20:15:58Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-29T20:17:06Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-29T20:18:55Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-04-29T20:37:17Z sunwukong` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T20:37:36Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T20:38:54Z molbdnilo joined #lisp 2015-04-29T20:39:12Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-04-29T20:39:18Z linkcr joined #lisp 2015-04-29T20:39:26Z munksgaa1d quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-29T20:40:32Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-29T20:41:29Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-29T20:42:27Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T20:43:07Z molbdnilo quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-29T20:46:58Z dkslwkd joined #lisp 2015-04-29T20:47:54Z dkslwkd left #lisp 2015-04-29T20:51:42Z gniourf_gniourf joined #lisp 2015-04-29T20:51:58Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-04-29T20:53:18Z khisanth_ joined #lisp 2015-04-29T20:55:34Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-29T20:56:02Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-29T20:58:12Z x1n4u joined #lisp 2015-04-29T21:03:01Z zhuyue quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-29T21:05:13Z linkcr quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-29T21:07:11Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T21:07:17Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-04-29T21:09:09Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-04-29T21:09:21Z TDT quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-29T21:10:23Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-29T21:11:02Z linkcr joined #lisp 2015-04-29T21:11:37Z logand joined #lisp 2015-04-29T21:11:42Z f3lp quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-29T21:12:16Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T21:12:45Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-29T21:12:51Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-29T21:14:05Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-29T21:14:26Z vdamewood quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-04-29T21:14:41Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T21:14:59Z xach quit (Input/output error) 2015-04-29T21:15:24Z badkins quit 2015-04-29T21:18:45Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-29T21:19:12Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T21:20:46Z allen joined #lisp 2015-04-29T21:21:10Z allen is now known as Guest10548 2015-04-29T21:21:38Z Guest10548 is now known as coetry 2015-04-29T21:23:35Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-29T21:23:35Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-04-29T21:23:35Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-29T21:23:36Z f3lp joined #lisp 2015-04-29T21:25:04Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-29T21:25:49Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-29T21:27:02Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-04-29T21:27:14Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-29T21:27:58Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-04-29T21:35:20Z coetry: I have slime and emacs setup with sbcl. If I wanted to see the source of a function such as 'length, how can i do so? 2015-04-29T21:35:37Z khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 2015-04-29T21:35:56Z akkad: C-h f? 2015-04-29T21:36:26Z akkad: I have that bound to slime-describe-function 2015-04-29T21:36:51Z coetry: akkad, it does describe it, but what if i wanted to see the actual code behidn it 2015-04-29T21:37:22Z akkad: slime-goto-xref? 2015-04-29T21:37:35Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-29T21:37:44Z akkad: M-x slime- ;; might yield it 2015-04-29T21:38:14Z coetry: hmm it says 'no reference at point' 2015-04-29T21:38:38Z coetry: That function is written in common lisp right? Or would it be in C? 2015-04-29T21:39:05Z akkad: assuming you have your cursor over the function you want to lookup 2015-04-29T21:39:54Z coetry: it is 2015-04-29T21:40:16Z akkad: `slime-describe-function' with C-c C-d C-f 2015-04-29T21:40:48Z larion joined #lisp 2015-04-29T21:41:02Z coetry: akkad, ah thats more like it 2015-04-29T21:41:07Z Xach: coetry: I usually put my cursor on the name of the function and use M-. 2015-04-29T21:41:13Z netytan joined #lisp 2015-04-29T21:41:16Z coetry: and it seems to be a compiled function 2015-04-29T21:41:46Z rhllor quit (Quit: rhllor) 2015-04-29T21:41:57Z coetry: how do i go to the source file? 2015-04-29T21:42:05Z coetry: Source file: SYS:SRC;CODE;SEQ.LISP 2015-04-29T21:42:13Z Xach: coetry: M-. 2015-04-29T21:42:31Z Xach: I have never used C-c C-d C-f in 10 years of using slime. I use M-. daily though. 2015-04-29T21:42:41Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T21:42:56Z coetry: Xach, ahhh 2015-04-29T21:43:00Z coetry: M-. 2015-04-29T21:43:07Z coetry: is beautiful and exactly what i was looking for 2015-04-29T21:43:19Z Xach: coetry: if you have a name like that, you can find its physical pathname with (translate-logical-pathname "SYS:SRC;CODE;SEQ.LISP") 2015-04-29T21:44:06Z akkad: but the former is soo much easier to do... :P 2015-04-29T21:44:21Z akkad: there are some slime combinations that seem to be excessively complicated 2015-04-29T21:45:56Z coetry quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-29T21:47:13Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-29T21:47:21Z Xach: M-. isn't one, fortunately 2015-04-29T21:49:09Z marksmith joined #lisp 2015-04-29T21:49:18Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-29T21:50:33Z netytan quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-29T21:50:53Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-29T21:50:57Z marksmith is now known as netytan 2015-04-29T21:51:25Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-29T21:54:56Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-04-29T21:57:17Z FireFly joined #lisp 2015-04-29T21:57:20Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-29T22:05:19Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-04-29T22:06:31Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-04-29T22:08:23Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T22:14:19Z Pastaf joined #lisp 2015-04-29T22:14:25Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-29T22:17:03Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-29T22:17:55Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T22:19:38Z hcp_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-29T22:21:03Z sheilong quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-29T22:22:24Z suguriu quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-29T22:22:30Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-29T22:22:58Z tertl3-laptop joined #lisp 2015-04-29T22:25:48Z tertl3-laptop quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-29T22:27:58Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-29T22:31:13Z flash- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-29T22:32:32Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-04-29T22:34:12Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T22:36:38Z a2015_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-29T22:37:38Z thodg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-29T22:38:56Z badkins quit 2015-04-29T22:39:38Z thodg joined #lisp 2015-04-29T22:42:31Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-29T22:50:42Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-29T22:51:14Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-04-29T22:54:15Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-29T22:54:55Z paddymahoney quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-29T23:03:17Z trilakin joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:04:29Z pavelpenev quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-29T23:04:39Z trilakin: ahh it's a wonderful day 2015-04-29T23:08:53Z netytan: trilakin: yes. Yes it is :) 2015-04-29T23:09:57Z alchemis7 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:10:06Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:10:14Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T23:10:19Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-29T23:10:31Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:10:31Z k-stz: good day indeed 2015-04-29T23:10:51Z sword quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-29T23:11:05Z sword joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:11:16Z alpha- quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-29T23:11:46Z funnel quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-29T23:12:27Z funnel joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:13:24Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:15:28Z blt joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:19:38Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-29T23:20:08Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-04-29T23:20:44Z Brozo quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-04-29T23:20:48Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:22:04Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:22:43Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:24:00Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:25:11Z Jesin quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-29T23:26:09Z a2015_ joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:26:39Z drmeister: Does anyone know why FIND-PACKAGE doesn't have an &optional ERROR-P argument like FIND-CLASS? 2015-04-29T23:27:20Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:27:58Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:28:21Z C6248 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:28:38Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:29:54Z Jesin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T23:30:09Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T23:30:14Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:31:01Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-29T23:31:16Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:32:37Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T23:33:47Z Xach does not know, suspects because it was developed at a different time by different people 2015-04-29T23:34:16Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:35:02Z Jesin quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-29T23:35:26Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:35:50Z drmeister: Thanks, I can feel good about that. I added one to my C++ implementation (not exposed to CL) to handle the common case of when I want the failure to find a package to signal an error. 2015-04-29T23:36:13Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T23:38:27Z pillton: It doesn't accept an environment argument either. 2015-04-29T23:38:57Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:38:58Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:39:19Z Jesin quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-29T23:39:35Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:40:08Z Jesin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T23:40:27Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:41:23Z Xach: drmeister: sbcl defines an internal function called FIND-PACKAGE-OR-LOSE 2015-04-29T23:41:52Z alpha- joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:42:13Z drmeister: And -OR-LOSE means it signals an error I'm guessing - thanks! 2015-04-29T23:42:33Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-29T23:45:02Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-29T23:45:06Z axion: how can i get the byte vector with w-o-f on a binary file? 2015-04-29T23:45:44Z protist joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:46:27Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:48:32Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-29T23:49:34Z C6248 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-29T23:50:09Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-29T23:52:53Z pillton: What do you mean "get the byte vector"? 2015-04-29T23:53:03Z Xach: axion: "the" byte vector? you can read byte vectors with read-sequence... 2015-04-29T23:53:08Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2015-04-29T23:54:10Z axion: i have a binary file saved from serializing lisp code with conspack. the decode function expects (OR NULL (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) (*))) 2015-04-29T23:54:24Z axion: i cant seem to get past the type error :/ 2015-04-29T23:54:56Z pjb: axion: read-sequence 2015-04-29T23:54:57Z Xach: axion: what are you giving to the decode function? a stream object? 2015-04-29T23:55:10Z axion: no, the result of read-sequence 2015-04-29T23:55:30Z Xach: axion: can you paste the code to paste.lisp.org? maybe we can get a better view to help. 2015-04-29T23:57:00Z axion: i'm not familiar with streams at all... 2015-04-29T23:57:02Z axion: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147656 2015-04-29T23:57:03Z Xach: axion: you have to specify :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) 2015-04-29T23:57:11Z Xach: axion: the default, if unspecified, gives you a character stream 2015-04-29T23:57:14Z axion: zi tried that too 2015-04-29T23:57:22Z Xach: axion: you also have to give an element type to MAKE-ARRAY 2015-04-29T23:57:42Z Xach: axion: also, read-sequence does not return the sequence, it returns an index 2015-04-29T23:58:02Z Xach: axion: you need to save the sequence so you can use it later 2015-04-29T23:58:08Z Xach: (bind it) 2015-04-29T23:58:10Z axion: hmm 2015-04-29T23:58:46Z nyef: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147658 might do the trick 2015-04-29T23:59:19Z nyef: Given a filename, read the contents of the file into an (unsigned-byte 8) vector and return that vector. 2015-04-29T23:59:21Z Xach: nyef's example is good. 2015-04-29T23:59:55Z axion: thanks, i got it :) 2015-04-30T00:00:14Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T00:00:18Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-30T00:01:00Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-30T00:02:57Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-30T00:13:38Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-04-30T00:17:55Z isaac_rks joined #lisp 2015-04-30T00:20:17Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-04-30T00:21:35Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T00:23:56Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T00:24:53Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-04-30T00:25:49Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-04-30T00:26:25Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-30T00:28:23Z Xach is super excited about a new thing! 2015-04-30T00:29:02Z pillton: Do tell. 2015-04-30T00:29:09Z wglb: Xach: which new thing? 2015-04-30T00:29:42Z Xach: Can you try this? curl -O https://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp 2015-04-30T00:32:22Z pillton: I can't at present sorry. 2015-04-30T00:35:33Z nyef: Xach: Gives me a 57144 octet file of some sort. 2015-04-30T00:38:25Z Xach: super! 2015-04-30T00:38:34Z Xach: that is what makes me excited. there's more to do, but that's a good start. 2015-04-30T00:38:47Z keen___ joined #lisp 2015-04-30T00:39:32Z blt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-30T00:39:56Z keen__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-30T00:40:31Z Xach invested some generous donor money today to make it happen 2015-04-30T00:42:25Z nyef: ... paid for an SSL cert? 2015-04-30T00:42:42Z Xach: yep. a wildcard, too. 2015-04-30T00:42:47Z nyef: Nice! 2015-04-30T00:43:06Z Xach is going to get www.quicklisp.org updated next 2015-04-30T00:44:56Z Xach: That was a recurring request at ELS, something I didn't cover in my talk, but should have. 2015-04-30T00:45:04Z Xach is taking step 1 of many 2015-04-30T00:45:37Z Xach: I was a little surprised by the unhappiness in http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/2rcza8/til_that_clozure_common_lisps_load_function_knows/ - did not know "Quicklisp code is TERRIBLE" 2015-04-30T00:46:53Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T00:48:03Z nyef: Eesh. 2015-04-30T00:48:49Z pillton: A full OS reinstall? heh. 2015-04-30T00:49:12Z nyef: I can see that complaint for qlqs, in a way, but I've never really dug into the main quicklisp code, so I don't know how accurate that accusation might be. On the other hand, you're doing this largely in your free time, with little remuneration? You deserve more than a little credit for that. 2015-04-30T00:49:49Z Xach: Anyway, whoever it is is right about the need for better security. Getting started down that road. 2015-04-30T00:54:56Z brucem: Xach: best to just ignore all of the negativity. People enjoy being anonymous assholes. (Their username even includes "incognito".) 2015-04-30T00:56:01Z pillton: Xach: I think you are doing a great job. Thank you for looking in to better security. 2015-04-30T00:56:04Z hapax joined #lisp 2015-04-30T00:56:16Z brucem: Xach: in fact their only posts with that account are in that thread! 2015-04-30T00:56:27Z hapax is now known as Guest17282 2015-04-30T00:56:30Z Xach: I heard from several non-anonymous, friendly folks at ELS with the same concerns, so I understand the interest 2015-04-30T00:56:34Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-04-30T00:57:16Z White_Flame quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-04-30T00:58:45Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-04-30T01:00:18Z Guest17282 left #lisp 2015-04-30T01:00:40Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-30T01:00:55Z C6248 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T01:01:41Z rak[2] joined #lisp 2015-04-30T01:02:52Z Xach: Ralt: so confused 2015-04-30T01:08:14Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2015-04-30T01:13:01Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-30T01:13:27Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-04-30T01:14:15Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-30T01:14:40Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-30T01:15:12Z rak[2] quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-30T01:15:18Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-30T01:16:48Z []}grant{ joined #lisp 2015-04-30T01:19:43Z []}grant{ is now known as {}grant 2015-04-30T01:20:13Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-04-30T01:21:17Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-30T01:21:18Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-30T01:25:39Z Slothel quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-30T01:26:43Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-30T01:27:01Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-30T01:29:54Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-30T01:30:43Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-30T01:30:49Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T01:31:42Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-30T01:32:28Z Xach updates www.quicklisp.org to redirect to https 2015-04-30T01:33:44Z nyef: Xach: About how much does a wildcard cert cost, btw? 2015-04-30T01:35:00Z Xach: from gandi, $160/year, or $272 for two years. I opted for two. I know supposedly there will be a free cert option in a year, but I wanted to have something more concrete in hand. 2015-04-30T01:38:56Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-04-30T01:42:09Z fugue joined #lisp 2015-04-30T01:42:18Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-30T01:43:09Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-30T01:43:16Z voidpointer_ joined #lisp 2015-04-30T01:44:48Z voidpointer_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-30T01:53:04Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-30T01:57:59Z nyef: Xach: Okay, thanks. That's a bit more than I want to pay right-right now, but it'll probably seem cheap enough by the time I need an SSL cert. 2015-04-30T01:58:12Z netytan quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-30T01:59:30Z yrk quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.0.50.1)) 2015-04-30T02:00:16Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-04-30T02:07:54Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-04-30T02:08:32Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-04-30T02:09:18Z failproofshark updates quicklisp 2015-04-30T02:09:53Z failproofshark: an nevermind 2015-04-30T02:10:22Z blt joined #lisp 2015-04-30T02:14:06Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-04-30T02:16:51Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Weird in coding now, or make love, only two things push me away from IRC.) 2015-04-30T02:25:11Z blt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T02:28:17Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T02:31:18Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-04-30T02:36:09Z theseb left #lisp 2015-04-30T02:36:12Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-30T02:36:20Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-04-30T02:36:32Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-30T02:39:17Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-30T02:39:46Z ir2ivps quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T02:40:59Z ir2ivps joined #lisp 2015-04-30T02:41:14Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T02:43:05Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-30T03:19:46Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-30T03:20:13Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-30T03:21:15Z viaken: Dang, if I had $2k disposable. 2015-04-30T03:26:40Z linkcr quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-30T03:27:24Z nyef: If it were TI hardware rather than Symbolics, I might be keeping quiet and hoping to snag it for myself. 2015-04-30T03:27:57Z pillton: What is the difference between TI and Symbolics? 2015-04-30T03:29:53Z nyef: TI licensed the CADR design from LMI, and then licensed their Explorer design back to LMI. 2015-04-30T03:30:00Z nyef: So it's a different branch of the evolutionary tree. 2015-04-30T03:30:06Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-04-30T03:31:48Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-30T03:32:58Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-30T03:35:13Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-04-30T03:35:40Z beach joined #lisp 2015-04-30T03:35:48Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-04-30T03:36:02Z pillton: nyef: Is it a design you prefer of Symbolics? 2015-04-30T03:36:06Z pillton: beach: G'day. 2015-04-30T03:36:13Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-04-30T03:36:30Z nyef: pillton: I'm far more familiar with the TI system than with the Symbolics system. 2015-04-30T03:37:10Z nyef: It'd also give me a chance to get the one ROM image that I'm missing from my set. (-: 2015-04-30T03:37:35Z pillton: nyef: Right. 2015-04-30T03:37:37Z C6248 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-30T03:40:01Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T03:40:22Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-04-30T03:40:58Z pillton: beach: How are things going? 2015-04-30T03:41:26Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-04-30T03:41:28Z beach: pillton: Moving forward. A bit slow after ELS. Too much work before, I guess. You? 2015-04-30T03:45:29Z pillton: Frustrated at present with what I am implementing. 2015-04-30T03:45:48Z beach: Sorry to hear that. What is it? 2015-04-30T03:45:59Z Brozo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T03:46:39Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-04-30T03:46:41Z pillton: I'm writing a solver for a mathematical objective to do deblurring of images. 2015-04-30T03:47:14Z beach: It doesn't SOUND bad. 2015-04-30T03:48:10Z Denommus quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-30T03:48:47Z pillton: No it doesn't, but I can't find a good abstraction. This current one requires 23 generic functions. 2015-04-30T03:49:14Z beach: I see, yes. 2015-04-30T03:52:40Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-04-30T03:52:53Z jtz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-30T03:53:50Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-04-30T03:58:33Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-04-30T03:59:37Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T04:00:46Z alchemis7 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-30T04:01:19Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-30T04:06:56Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-30T04:07:04Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T04:08:13Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-30T04:09:07Z mmoreno80 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T04:10:53Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T04:15:12Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-30T04:16:51Z jtz joined #lisp 2015-04-30T04:17:58Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-30T04:22:12Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T04:30:27Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-04-30T04:32:23Z fugue left #lisp 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That's stupid. 2015-04-30T11:40:59Z jackdaniel: right now I'm testing, if latest asdf doesn't cause regressions, so I *need* to compare it to previous one 2015-04-30T11:41:13Z jackdaniel: cl-test-grid is for libraries and implementations, not only former 2015-04-30T11:41:43Z Shinmera: It just makes cl-test-grid almost completely useless for almost all of my libraries. 2015-04-30T11:42:25Z netytan joined #lisp 2015-04-30T11:42:57Z jackdaniel: maybe you can make dependency on asdf above some specific version? (idk, just a suggestion) 2015-04-30T11:43:10Z Xach: Shinmera: I don't think so. It illustrates the default experience for most people. 2015-04-30T11:43:13Z Shinmera: That won't make cl-test-grid magically have that ASDF installed on its test systems. 2015-04-30T11:43:27Z Xach: (using lisps that don't have the latest ASDF) 2015-04-30T11:43:49Z Xach: I don't think it's worth it for :homepage, but maybe there's some other feature that makes it worthwhile. 2015-04-30T11:44:11Z xinau quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-30T11:44:19Z milosn quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-30T11:44:26Z Shinmera: I /know/ what the default experience is. I /don't/ know if my lib will actually compile fine with the proper ASDF version. 2015-04-30T11:44:39Z Shinmera: And the latter part is what I'm interested in. 2015-04-30T11:45:16Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-30T11:45:59Z p_l finds it interesting that some programmers dealing with soft realtime low latency (gaming) appear to have a relation to lisp... 2015-04-30T11:46:22Z linkcr joined #lisp 2015-04-30T11:46:26Z Shinmera: p_l: What do you mean? 2015-04-30T11:46:33Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-30T11:46:49Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-30T11:46:56Z p_l: I'm following a bunch of links about performance, sometimes about low level performance, and there's lisp showing up from time to time at least in people's twitter bio 2015-04-30T11:47:01Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-30T11:47:05Z p_l: or maybe it's just insomniac games 2015-04-30T11:47:09Z Shinmera: Ah. 2015-04-30T11:47:51Z selat quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-30T11:52:27Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-30T11:52:42Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-30T11:52:55Z p_l: it's mostly C++ stuff, but in relation to generated code 2015-04-30T11:53:14Z alchemis7 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T11:53:30Z Xach: Shinmera: I learn about the default experience through cl-test-grid. 2015-04-30T11:53:50Z Xach: I load some stuff on different lisps, but not as much as cl-test-grid does. 2015-04-30T11:54:16Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T11:54:26Z netytan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T11:54:51Z netytan joined #lisp 2015-04-30T11:55:33Z Shinmera: I already know that ASDF3 isn't included in some of the implementations, but I don't know if it'll compile, and that's what would be useful for me to know. 2015-04-30T11:55:39Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-30T11:55:48Z Xach: If ASDF3 will compile? 2015-04-30T11:55:55Z Shinmera: No, whether my lib will compile. 2015-04-30T11:56:22Z Xach: Would you consider dropping ASDF3-specific features, or conditionalizing them? 2015-04-30T11:57:02Z Shinmera: I could do that, but I think people should upgrade anyway. 2015-04-30T11:58:26Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T11:58:27Z Xach: Why? 2015-04-30T11:59:47Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-04-30T11:59:59Z Shinmera: There's not much reason not to for one, and doing so will ensure that you're keeping up to date with what most people will most likely test and work against anyway. 2015-04-30T12:00:18Z Shinmera: Thus avoiding annoying kludges related to the build system being outdated. 2015-04-30T12:01:11Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:01:43Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:02:28Z Xach: It's a lot bigger and more complex. It's not backwards-compatible. 2015-04-30T12:03:35Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:03:58Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:04:10Z mishoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T12:04:27Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-04-30T12:04:27Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:06:51Z Shinmera: Hmm. In what way is it incompatible? I don't think I've heard people talk about this before. 2015-04-30T12:07:15Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:07:22Z Shinmera: Also, for the case of cl-test-grid, libraries in Quicklisp are tested against SBCL with ASDF3, so if it hit a backwards-incompatibility, it wouldn't be in Quicklisp to begin with, and thus not be tested by cl-test-grid either. 2015-04-30T12:07:36Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:08:08Z Xach: Shinmera: the obvious bits are the new keywords that old asdf chokes on. 2015-04-30T12:08:36Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-30T12:08:57Z Shinmera: Oh. Sorry, I got confused and interpreted it as "ASDF3 can't load certain ASDF2 systems". 2015-04-30T12:09:16Z Xach: That's also true, but I've forgotten the details - there was a big effort to update all the libraries in quicklisp that broke. 2015-04-30T12:09:18Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T12:09:38Z Xach: But I think it's useful to remember that "libraries in quicklisp" is not the same as "all common lisp libraries and applications" 2015-04-30T12:09:45Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-30T12:09:49Z Shinmera: Sure, and I know that very well. 2015-04-30T12:09:53Z Xach: there's an iceberg effect 2015-04-30T12:10:00Z Shinmera: But for the case of cl-test-grid, there's only QL libraries. 2015-04-30T12:10:27Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:13:13Z Xach: drmeister: is there a page you'd consider the clasp home page? 2015-04-30T12:13:31Z Xach: drmeister: if i wanted to link to clasp, where would i link? 2015-04-30T12:13:59Z Shinmera: I think we decided on the github page last time. 2015-04-30T12:14:24Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-30T12:14:40Z drmeister: Yeah - as much as I hate being dumped in github pages - I do have a fairly informative README.md. So: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp for now 2015-04-30T12:15:08Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:15:32Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-30T12:15:34Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:15:38Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-30T12:16:09Z Xach: jackdaniel: same question for ecl - is there an ecl home page? 2015-04-30T12:16:16Z Xach: drmeister: thanks 2015-04-30T12:17:43Z jackdaniel: Xach: it's kind of hard question, because there are at least three spots. But one linking everywhere else is probably https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/ 2015-04-30T12:17:56Z jackdaniel: s/probably/ 2015-04-30T12:18:01Z jackdaniel: s/probably// ° 2015-04-30T12:18:02Z Xach: jackdaniel: ok, thanks. 2015-04-30T12:19:01Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T12:20:18Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:21:32Z protist: where is a good lisp of the most popular quicklisp packages? 2015-04-30T12:22:17Z Shinmera: I don't know about lisp, but there's lists. http://blog.quicklisp.org/2015/04/march-2015-download-stats.html 2015-04-30T12:22:22Z protist: good list* 2015-04-30T12:22:28Z protist: Shinmera: thanks :D 2015-04-30T12:22:40Z protist: Shinmera: I found that months ago and couldn't find it now, perfect! 2015-04-30T12:22:50Z Xach is days away from posting the April edition 2015-04-30T12:23:19Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:23:33Z protist: Xach: are you behind quicklisp? 2015-04-30T12:23:34Z Cymew: Who is betting money on Alexandra being pushed down to #2? 2015-04-30T12:23:46Z Xach: protist: yes 2015-04-30T12:23:46Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T12:23:51Z Xach: protist: and slightly to the left of it 2015-04-30T12:24:01Z protist: Xach: cool :)...I know I've talked to you, and even read about you before haha 2015-04-30T12:24:07Z protist: Xach: lol 2015-04-30T12:25:15Z Xach: Come to the next Lisp conference and we can meet in person! They are fun! 2015-04-30T12:25:35Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-30T12:25:41Z jackdaniel: and all get cool badges ;-) 2015-04-30T12:25:41Z protist: Xach: well I would love to...but I am a student in NZ at the moment :p 2015-04-30T12:25:49Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:25:49Z jackdaniel: protist: students have discount 2015-04-30T12:26:10Z protist: jackdaniel: on the flight as well? 2015-04-30T12:26:19Z Xach: protist: ah. it seems unlikely that there will be an ilc in new zealand. 2015-04-30T12:26:26Z pyon-ktiert quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-30T12:26:26Z Xach: even less likely to see an ELS there 2015-04-30T12:26:27Z protist: jackdaniel: where and when is the conference? 2015-04-30T12:26:35Z jackdaniel: hmm, probably not on the flight 2015-04-30T12:26:38Z protist: Xach: thank you for looking :) 2015-04-30T12:26:46Z Xach is thinking about a conference in Portland, Maine 2015-04-30T12:26:59Z kami joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:27:08Z jackdaniel: afaik next ELS is in Kraków 2015-04-30T12:27:53Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:28:03Z protist: I have started an implementation of APL in Common Lisp...may make it open source sometime when it is cleaner :p 2015-04-30T12:28:26Z antoszka: How do you type in the characters? Got a Symbolics keyboard? :) 2015-04-30T12:28:49Z protist: antoszka: alternate keyboard map when I hold down capslock.... ⌈⍺'∘?∊⍵?⊤⍴⍝ 2015-04-30T12:29:07Z protist: antoszka: unicode 2015-04-30T12:29:22Z antoszka: yay 2015-04-30T12:30:02Z protist: antoszka: using KDE because an APL keyboard map is built in :p 2015-04-30T12:30:15Z protist: antoszka: otherwise I would be on gnome 2015-04-30T12:30:24Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:30:46Z cibs quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-30T12:30:48Z someone quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-30T12:31:18Z protist: antoszka: the multidimensional arrays have me thinking about generalizing format to 2d text 2015-04-30T12:31:35Z protist: antoszka: would be neat to interpolate 2d representations of text into tables and such 2015-04-30T12:31:43Z antoszka: Definitely. 2015-04-30T12:32:04Z girrig quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-30T12:32:54Z jackdaniel: Xach: are you writing some overview of implementations? 2015-04-30T12:33:14Z girrig joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:36:46Z Xach: jackdaniel: just some updates to quicklisp.org. I referred to implementations by name, I figured I should link to them as well. 2015-04-30T12:37:01Z Xach notes quicklisp.org is now served via https 2015-04-30T12:37:28Z jackdaniel: any reason to put is as https? (/me noticed this morning) 2015-04-30T12:38:05Z Xach: jackdaniel: increased trust in the resources it provides 2015-04-30T12:38:09Z p_l: http://www.slideshare.net/cellperformance/data-oriented-design-and-c <--- interesting read about performance, even if in C++ (the easy access to CL:DISASSEMBLE makes it easier in CL, IMO :D) 2015-04-30T12:38:22Z jackdaniel: ok 2015-04-30T12:38:24Z Shinmera: Xach: But not the actual URLs quicklisp the program uses to fetch things, right? 2015-04-30T12:38:36Z blackwolf joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:38:56Z linkcr quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-30T12:38:57Z Xach: Shinmera: right. you can get quicklisp.lisp via https, but it fetches things via http, and doesn't verify them. that's the next thing to fix. 2015-04-30T12:39:20Z Shinmera: Good, I thought I had missed something major! 2015-04-30T12:39:33Z Cymew: Things are moving along fine in quicklisp land. Sweet. 2015-04-30T12:39:36Z Xach: Nope. Taking the first steps right now, journey not complete 2015-04-30T12:40:25Z Xach: jackdaniel: for example, quicklisp.org publishes the sha256 digest of quicklisp.lisp. it is easier for someone to provide a bogus digest and bogus quicklisp.lisp in the absence of https. 2015-04-30T12:40:52Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:41:43Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-30T12:41:59Z jackdaniel: Xach: that makes sense 2015-04-30T12:42:00Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-30T12:42:12Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:44:07Z p_l: Shinmera: ahh, apparently Insomniac Games used to be neighbours with Naughty Dog :D 2015-04-30T12:44:16Z Shinmera: p_l: That explains things. 2015-04-30T12:45:19Z blackwolf quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-30T12:45:52Z netytan quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-04-30T12:46:17Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T12:48:12Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-30T12:49:14Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-30T12:49:57Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-30T12:50:24Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:51:13Z linkcr joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:51:51Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:54:50Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:55:14Z Jiepel joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:55:46Z pyon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T12:58:15Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T12:58:41Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T13:00:03Z comodo_dragon joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:01:10Z comodo_dragon left #lisp 2015-04-30T13:04:04Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-30T13:04:49Z dim: Xach: you have a md5sum, I guess the quicklisp client is at least checking that? I know I'm checking it in ql-to-deb... 2015-04-30T13:05:43Z dim: I've been told the proper way to do it would be to GnuPG sign your archives for trusted checks client sides 2015-04-30T13:06:14Z dim: I've been told that in the context of pginstall which is a wanabee-quicklisp for PostgreSQL Extensions 2015-04-30T13:07:08Z Shinmera: A signature is definitely better than just a hash. 2015-04-30T13:07:24Z Xach: dim: nope. 2015-04-30T13:08:05Z Xach: a signature is a hash attached to a particular key id. 2015-04-30T13:08:27Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb/blob/master/src/ql.lisp#L91 2015-04-30T13:08:40Z Xach: my initial plan was to sign the metadata (including size & multiple hashes) and check that signature, then check the metadata 2015-04-30T13:08:47Z Xach: i think that may carry through, at least at first. 2015-04-30T13:08:53Z dim: in case you want to steal code from ql-to-deb for the ql client to check the md5sum, I would be honnored ;-) 2015-04-30T13:09:36Z dim: in pginstall we are shipping binary artefacts so signature might be even more important than in a source based distribution, but still 2015-04-30T13:10:29Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:10:34Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb/blob/master/src/ql.lisp#L113 is the link to the proper function, ahem 2015-04-30T13:10:48Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:11:27Z dim: and it's actually just using the md5 ql dist anyway, I should have my nap about now I guess. 2015-04-30T13:11:42Z Xach: dim: i need fast-enough hash functions embedded directly into the client. that may mean adapting from ironclad or from some other source. and maybe some implementation-specific code for e.g. abcl where doing it in pure lisp might be too slow. 2015-04-30T13:12:16Z Xach: dim: btw, els next year in krakow, you should wield your influence to prevent any conflicts 2015-04-30T13:12:33Z Xach: dim: since the date is not set, it should suffice to prevent any scheduled pg events for 2016 for now 2015-04-30T13:12:51Z dim: hehe ;-) 2015-04-30T13:13:07Z dim: or better yet have both event the same week in the same town, or just one week apart 2015-04-30T13:14:27Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-30T13:14:40Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:15:03Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:15:22Z dim: this year the conflict arose because I booked the event host for pgday.paris before els date was set... but I had to to get a very nice offer from the host, and pgday.paris was great as a result, so there's at least that 2015-04-30T13:16:36Z Xach: oh hey dim! 2015-04-30T13:16:46Z Xach: dim: i see you are using drakma to fetch the release files 2015-04-30T13:17:11Z Xach: dim: you can now rewrite the http part to https for beta.quicklisp.org if you like. 2015-04-30T13:17:13Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-30T13:17:32Z dim: will look into that, thanks! 2015-04-30T13:18:03Z dim: I think I'm quite late for an update anyway, but usually I just have to run commands at the shell prompt to update the ~50 debian packages, not to write lisp code anymore ;-) 2015-04-30T13:18:09Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:20:08Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T13:20:56Z luis: Any lfarm users around? 2015-04-30T13:21:13Z jackdaniel , but not lately (lack of time) 2015-04-30T13:22:23Z luis: This is a bit of a boring question, but I wonder if there's a convenient out-of-the-box way of evaluating code remotely that involves symbols that don't exist in the "master" lisp. 2015-04-30T13:22:45Z luis: other than eval and read-from-string, that is. 2015-04-30T13:24:00Z jdz: luis: what would the symbols evaluate to if they do not exist? 2015-04-30T13:24:00Z dim: I'd try sending the lisp form and using compile on the remote side? 2015-04-30T13:24:06Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-30T13:24:10Z paul0 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-30T13:24:40Z Xach: luis: i don't have a convenient way, but when i wanted something like that for buildapp, i made a new object with package and name slots, and that print like symbols. but making them wasn't convenient. 2015-04-30T13:25:10Z Xach: pseudosymbols were for generating code on the host to be spit into a lisp file via PRINT 2015-04-30T13:25:53Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-30T13:28:28Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:29:54Z Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147668 -- dumb, but sufficient for my use. i suppose you could use a read macro to ease construction within a sexp. 2015-04-30T13:31:08Z pyon_ joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:31:16Z Goopyo joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:31:26Z pyon quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-30T13:31:36Z Goopyo: how do you split a string into n many subsequences? i.e Hello, 2 becomes He, ll, o 2015-04-30T13:31:44Z Goopyo: where n = 2 2015-04-30T13:31:45Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:32:08Z gabriel_laddel: Xach: Your TIMER lib for SBCL isn't listed on the homepage of your website. Is it retired in favor of another lib? 2015-04-30T13:32:16Z joast quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-30T13:33:19Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:33:22Z luis: Xach: I see. But then code would have to be written like ($remote-package:remote-symbol ...) or some such, right? 2015-04-30T13:33:53Z joast joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:34:02Z luis: dim: if the lisp form is read on the master side, you'll get a package error 2015-04-30T13:34:02Z failproofshark: hello all 2015-04-30T13:34:04Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:34:22Z pt1_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T13:34:49Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-30T13:34:53Z luis: jdz: something, anything that the remote side can turn back into the right symbols before evaluation 2015-04-30T13:35:21Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:36:46Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:37:02Z pyon_ is now known as pyon 2015-04-30T13:37:06Z linkcr quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-30T13:37:25Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-30T13:38:04Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:38:36Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:38:56Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:40:28Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T13:40:33Z tandy80 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T13:41:57Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-30T13:42:11Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:45:31Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-30T13:46:21Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:46:22Z lpaste: jdz pasted “partition” at http://lpaste.net/131746 2015-04-30T13:46:32Z jdz: Goopyo: there 2015-04-30T13:46:39Z linkcr joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:47:10Z Goopyo: hah thanks! Was in the process of writing a similar method 2015-04-30T13:47:14Z Goopyo: function* 2015-04-30T13:47:31Z Goopyo: lisp is suprisingly hard to google for. Any tips? py/golang guy here 2015-04-30T13:47:31Z cadadar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T13:47:43Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:49:12Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T13:49:26Z gabriel_laddel: 0.o 2015-04-30T13:49:27Z gabriel_laddel: http://melisgl.github.io/mgl-pax-world/ 2015-04-30T13:49:45Z gabriel_laddel: ^ this is some seriously good kit. 2015-04-30T13:50:39Z oleo: Goopyo: what are you searching for ? 2015-04-30T13:51:02Z Goopyo: even looking for a standard lib was hard! 2015-04-30T13:51:10Z Goopyo: i.e builtins 2015-04-30T13:51:18Z oleo: tried clhs already ? 2015-04-30T13:51:38Z linkcr quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-04-30T13:52:01Z Goopyo: is there a clhs in one page type thing? 2015-04-30T13:52:06Z oleo: lisp is a family of languages, involves scheme, common-lisp and all the implementations thereof..... 2015-04-30T13:52:12Z oleo: Goopyo: there's 2015-04-30T13:52:16Z oleo: wait 2015-04-30T13:52:27Z Goopyo: the origination seems to cater for people who know what they're looking for 2015-04-30T13:52:28Z nyef: ... The hyperspec is, what, the first hit on google for "lisp documentation"? 2015-04-30T13:52:33Z jdz: Goopyo: why would you want such a huge thing in one page? 2015-04-30T13:52:43Z oleo: ansicl-html 2015-04-30T13:53:05Z Goopyo: jdz easy greping for words I know that will probably be similar 2015-04-30T13:53:09Z oleo: cltl-html 2015-04-30T13:53:12Z Goopyo: its a weak problem and not me critiquing lisp 2015-04-30T13:53:20Z jdz: Goopyo: just have a look at HyperSpec 2015-04-30T13:53:25Z jdz: it has good indices 2015-04-30T13:53:25Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:53:45Z dlowe: I google with "clhs " 2015-04-30T13:53:55Z dlowe: first result is pretty much always the one I want 2015-04-30T13:54:17Z Shinmera: dlowe: Why not use http://l1sp.org 2015-04-30T13:54:23Z dlowe: kind of like searching "golang " instead of "go " :p 2015-04-30T13:54:39Z Goopyo: yuppp 2015-04-30T13:54:40Z dlowe: Shinmera: because google is a control-L away 2015-04-30T13:54:41Z Goopyo: ! 2015-04-30T13:54:47Z Goopyo: was just going to say that 2015-04-30T13:54:48Z Goopyo: thats helpful 2015-04-30T13:54:49Z Goopyo: thanks 2015-04-30T13:54:58Z Shinmera: dlowe: I use l1sp.org so often, it's only a l1 away. 2015-04-30T13:55:01Z dlowe: I know about l1sp.org, but I just never think to use it 2015-04-30T13:55:07Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:55:09Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:55:12Z Goopyo: Also someone drop some bootstrap css on these pages! ;) ok that was me trolling, sorry. 2015-04-30T13:55:53Z dlowe: you know, I never thought about it but, Goopyo is right. The clhs pages are freakin ugly. 2015-04-30T13:56:28Z dlowe: I wonder if it's easily rescuable 2015-04-30T13:56:45Z Shinmera: Licensing says most likely no. 2015-04-30T13:56:50Z Goopyo: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Front/StartPts.htm 2015-04-30T13:56:51Z Goopyo: that sidebar 2015-04-30T13:56:53Z foom: Yea, not without redoing it from scratch 2015-04-30T13:56:53Z dlowe: yeah. sigh. 2015-04-30T13:57:07Z dlowe: I've really thought hard about redoing it from scratch. 2015-04-30T13:57:08Z foom: I am still mad that the person who could grant a better license refused to do so. 2015-04-30T13:57:26Z splittist: Goopyo: quickdocs.org is sometimes an interesting way to find lisp code. Alexandria is a popular library of utilities. 2015-04-30T13:57:51Z dlowe: maybe this will encourage me to do so. 2015-04-30T13:58:04Z foom: I asked in person at ILC when it was in boston. 2015-04-30T13:58:05Z splittist: (Which is different from being a library of popular utilities.) 2015-04-30T13:58:05Z dlowe: it's probably not doing lisp's reputation any favors 2015-04-30T13:58:08Z foom: He said he could, but wouldn't 2015-04-30T13:58:12Z eudoxia: one of the projects on my pipeline is to parse the TeX sources of the spec and produce pretty HTML 2015-04-30T13:58:14Z dlowe: wow. That's... 2015-04-30T13:58:18Z rszeno quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-30T13:58:26Z Xach: cool 2015-04-30T13:58:28Z cadadar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T13:58:30Z dlowe: eudoxia: well, that's all that's needed. 2015-04-30T13:58:31Z eudoxia will get that done some day 2015-04-30T13:58:39Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:58:45Z foom: I forget who it was by now I was talking to. 2015-04-30T13:59:14Z Xach: go eudoxia, go! 2015-04-30T13:59:33Z Xach: eudoxia: can you also fix lucerne and clack-errors, possibly sooner 2015-04-30T13:59:35Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T13:59:43Z Xach is very hyped to get a quicklisp release out this weekend! 2015-04-30T13:59:48Z Ven quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-04-30T13:59:52Z dlowe: I have an abandoned hyperspec generator project myself 2015-04-30T14:00:04Z eudoxia: wait what happened with lucerne 2015-04-30T14:00:10Z eudoxia: i thought only clack errors was busted 2015-04-30T14:00:27Z dlowe: maybe I'll pick it up in a few weeks 2015-04-30T14:00:27Z Xach: eudoxia: same error in lucerne, possibly just because of dependencies? 2015-04-30T14:00:47Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T14:01:05Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T14:01:22Z eudoxia: hm 2015-04-30T14:01:31Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-04-28/failure-report/lucerne.html#lucerne 2015-04-30T14:01:36Z eudoxia: i suspect i'll just have to change clack.{response|request} to lack.* 2015-04-30T14:01:55Z linkcr joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:02:04Z Xach: ok 2015-04-30T14:02:12Z eudoxia: haha there's a bake-cookie function in lack that's adorkable 2015-04-30T14:02:51Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:03:04Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:03:40Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-30T14:05:02Z beach joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:05:14Z beach: Good afternoon everyone! 2015-04-30T14:05:19Z eudoxia: hello beach 2015-04-30T14:05:33Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-04-30T14:05:39Z foom: dlowe: It would be soooo nice if the existing generator was available. There's not enough people who care about lisp to waste spending time reinventing lisp standard postscript doc extraction tools. 2015-04-30T14:05:46Z foom: but as far as I could tell, never gonna happen. 2015-04-30T14:06:07Z dlowe: it's not going to happen. The best thing is for the hyperspec to be replaced, honored, and left behind. 2015-04-30T14:06:24Z dlowe: with something with a CC license 2015-04-30T14:06:26Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:06:34Z foom: yes, that's about 10 years overdue. 2015-04-30T14:06:53Z eudoxia: um excuse me, i got about 70% through parsing the spec 2015-04-30T14:07:15Z eudoxia: https://github.com/CommonDoc/cl-ansi-spec 2015-04-30T14:07:18Z dlowe: that's probably not 70% of the effort required 2015-04-30T14:08:14Z jlongste` joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:08:31Z jlongster quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-30T14:08:34Z jlongste` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T14:08:57Z selat joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:09:07Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:09:24Z beach: foom: What is a "standard postscript doc extraction tool"? 2015-04-30T14:10:18Z dlowe: eudoxia: looks like a good start, though 2015-04-30T14:10:55Z dlowe: I bet if we could get just a few people to push on it a bit, it'd be done really fast. 2015-04-30T14:11:10Z eudoxia: yes 2015-04-30T14:11:16Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:11:30Z trinque quit (Quit: trinque) 2015-04-30T14:11:30Z eudoxia: i think my current approach is kinda flawed though 2015-04-30T14:11:49Z dlowe: how so? 2015-04-30T14:12:35Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T14:12:40Z eudoxia: well it requires too much preprocessing and hopeful regex-replacing to deal with TeX forms like \command{body1}{body2}, since plump-tex (the TeX parser) doesn't parse forms with multiple bodies 2015-04-30T14:12:53Z eudoxia: so i have to transform them to something else i can parse 2015-04-30T14:13:16Z eudoxia: i think a better approach would be to descend through the parsed TeX nodes and dump what i need to an interim XML format 2015-04-30T14:13:40Z eudoxia: then either give that to the user or parse that into a sexpier format 2015-04-30T14:14:03Z eudoxia: a small, well-specified XML file would be an improvement over the current TeX source code though 2015-04-30T14:14:27Z dlowe: could improve plump-tex? 2015-04-30T14:14:46Z dlowe: not parsing forms with multiple bodies seems like a major shortcoming 2015-04-30T14:15:06Z eudoxia: i could, but i don't want to, how shall i put it, overflow my projects stack 2015-04-30T14:15:10Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:15:15Z dlowe: heh. 2015-04-30T14:15:18Z antgreen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-30T14:15:19Z Shinmera: multiple bodies make no sense in the context of X/H/TML, which is what plump is about. 2015-04-30T14:15:25Z dlowe: ah, I see. 2015-04-30T14:15:28Z Shinmera: *X/HT/ML 2015-04-30T14:15:50Z splittist: text markup is hard 2015-04-30T14:15:51Z Shinmera: I do agree that it's a shortcoming though. I just don't know how to elegantly fix it. 2015-04-30T14:15:55Z dlowe: Better to just write a TeX parser instead of going through an XML intermediate step 2015-04-30T14:16:02Z Shinmera: Which is why it doesn't do it yet. 2015-04-30T14:16:24Z eudoxia: Shinmera: i don't think i ever thanked you for the plump ecosystem 2015-04-30T14:16:29Z dlowe: Shinmera: that's reasonable for its purpose 2015-04-30T14:16:30Z eudoxia: as a very happy user, thank you 2015-04-30T14:16:30Z Shinmera: No need to. 2015-04-30T14:16:43Z Shinmera: I appreciate people using it, though! 2015-04-30T14:17:06Z Shinmera: Also, I call it the lquery-stack, since that's where it all began, basically. 2015-04-30T14:17:52Z Shinmera needs to improve clip most of all next. 2015-04-30T14:18:09Z eudoxia: speaking of template libraries 2015-04-30T14:18:25Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:18:36Z eudoxia: i think i'll deprecate eco in favour of djula 2015-04-30T14:18:46Z eudoxia: because muh library consolidation 2015-04-30T14:19:01Z failproofshark: yay djula 2015-04-30T14:19:13Z mega1: Do you know of a CL Cuckoo filter implementation? 2015-04-30T14:20:18Z Xach: mega1: sounds like something pkhuong might know about 2015-04-30T14:20:34Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T14:21:15Z mega1: yes, he's very much on top of the algorithmic stuff 2015-04-30T14:21:31Z Xach: he seems tweet-only these days 2015-04-30T14:21:45Z Shinmera: He's on #sbcl regularly enough. 2015-04-30T14:22:03Z Xach: oh, cool. 2015-04-30T14:24:43Z failproofshark has finally finished deploying his first woo/caveman2 application 2015-04-30T14:24:45Z failproofshark: yayifications 2015-04-30T14:25:58Z splittist: failproofshark: neat. What does it do? 2015-04-30T14:27:23Z failproofshark: splittist: just a dumb littler personal tool to help me keep track of my game collection 2015-04-30T14:27:38Z failproofshark: now i wont have to worry about getting some game for the nth time 2015-04-30T14:27:47Z failproofshark: (underwhelming i admit) 2015-04-30T14:29:25Z splittist: failproofshark: sounds handy. How did you find caveman2? What would you compare it with? Will you write a blog post and make Xach happy? (: 2015-04-30T14:30:11Z failproofshark: i found caveman after doing some research about writing web applications with in CL 2015-04-30T14:30:26Z failproofshark: i think i was originally going to just use hunchentoot alone 2015-04-30T14:30:38Z failproofshark: then i happened upon clack and it's offspring 2015-04-30T14:31:01Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:31:39Z failproofshark: also yes i will write a blog post(s). i saw on the github that some people wanted a tutorial of some sort, in addition to the sample applications floating around, so i may do that 2015-04-30T14:31:46Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T14:32:03Z failproofshark: i dont know if im necessarily the best person for the job but it couldnt hurt (i hope) 2015-04-30T14:32:04Z Shinmera hopes to write more blogs on Radiance soon. 2015-04-30T14:32:17Z xinau joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:32:36Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:32:59Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:33:49Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T14:34:01Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-30T14:34:04Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:34:07Z failproofshark: i was also succesful in integrating recaptcha 2015-04-30T14:34:30Z splittist: failproofshark: you are bound to be better than nothing (: And I'm pretty sure you'll be great! 2015-04-30T14:34:31Z Xach: failproofshark: did you use cl-recaptcha or roll your own? 2015-04-30T14:34:37Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-30T14:35:26Z failproofshark: Xach: rolled my own, sort of. i dont think cl-recaptcha supports the newer recaptcha api 2015-04-30T14:35:50Z failproofshark: it wasnt too hard though, i just used drakma to send a post and decoded the json it sent back 2015-04-30T14:35:56Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-30T14:35:58Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:36:14Z Xach: failproofshark: ooh. would you consider contributing to cl-recaptcha so it could do what you need? 2015-04-30T14:36:27Z failproofshark: i most definitely would 2015-04-30T14:36:31Z Xach: https://github.com/madnificent/cl-recaptcha/ is where i get it 2015-04-30T14:37:09Z Xach: eudoxia: trivial-download is also clack-affected 2015-04-30T14:37:23Z eudoxia: oh right, the tests server 2015-04-30T14:37:37Z eudoxia: i think corona will be affected as well 2015-04-30T14:38:06Z Xach: oops, yes. 2015-04-30T14:38:10Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-04-30/failure-report.html is today's report 2015-04-30T14:38:19Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-30T14:38:37Z Xach: mostly clack stuff from you, with one other system thrown in 2015-04-30T14:39:03Z failproofshark: splittist: thanks. i plan to some writing over the weekend 2015-04-30T14:39:15Z eudoxia: >tfw clack middleware classes are gone and now it's just a lambda 2015-04-30T14:39:28Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T14:41:58Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:42:25Z linkcr quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-30T14:42:37Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:44:07Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T14:45:49Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:45:53Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:49:29Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T14:51:40Z kami joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:52:12Z kvsari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T14:53:39Z linkcr joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:57:07Z jesusito joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:57:31Z jesusito left #lisp 2015-04-30T14:57:39Z alama quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-04-30T14:57:54Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-30T14:59:01Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-30T14:59:51Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-04-30T14:59:59Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T15:00:35Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T15:01:00Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T15:02:43Z Goopyo quit (Quit: Goopyo) 2015-04-30T15:03:29Z roang joined #lisp 2015-04-30T15:08:02Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-30T15:08:37Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-04-30T15:12:19Z Ethan- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T15:13:00Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-30T15:13:13Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2015-04-30T15:13:42Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-30T15:17:00Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T15:17:23Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-30T15:17:38Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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If I do (submit-task #'some-remote-package:foo), I'll get a package error locally because the master (in my case) doesn't have that package. 2015-04-30T15:25:53Z Goopyo quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-30T15:28:52Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-30T15:59:14Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T16:01:12Z kami: Does sbcl have a facility to find out the path of the currently running binary (i.e. "/usr/bin/sbcl" or "/usr/local/bin/sbcl")? 2015-04-30T16:02:00Z Goopyo quit (Quit: Goopyo) 2015-04-30T16:02:12Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:02:31Z kami: found it: sb-ext:*runtime-pathname* 2015-04-30T16:04:35Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:04:52Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T16:06:21Z scymtym quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T16:07:06Z Goopyo joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:08:18Z Goopyo quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-30T16:09:35Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:10:00Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T16:11:16Z Goopyo joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:12:39Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-30T16:12:40Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:13:33Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:14:05Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T16:14:06Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T16:14:15Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T16:14:36Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:14:36Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:15:17Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T16:15:27Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-30T16:16:23Z jackdaniel: luis: I think you should first submit task, which will load package - what if xyz:foo calls xyz:bar ? 2015-04-30T16:18:51Z jackdaniel: maybe ie (deftask initialize (symbol) (ql:quickload symbol)) (submit-task *channel* #'initialize :some-library) 2015-04-30T16:19:00Z MightyJoe is now known as cyraxjoe 2015-04-30T16:19:21Z jackdaniel: hm, quicklisp is kinda ubiquitous :p 2015-04-30T16:19:25Z jackdaniel: in cl world now 2015-04-30T16:20:14Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-30T16:21:08Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:22:20Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T16:23:32Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T16:23:41Z linkcr quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-30T16:24:14Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-30T16:24:38Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:24:50Z akkad: http://github.com/ober/cloudtrail-cl my first dab at CL, any feedback is welcomed. 2015-04-30T16:25:22Z logand` joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:27:21Z a2015 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:28:08Z ziocroc quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-30T16:28:53Z antoszka: akkad: i'd certainly recommend wrapping all of the code in a system, here's a nice howto by Xach: https://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html 2015-04-30T16:29:13Z logand quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-30T16:29:17Z antoszka: akkad: you could then easily quickload it 2015-04-30T16:29:18Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:30:09Z akkad: nice. 2015-04-30T16:30:24Z luis: jackdaniel: the package error is an issue in the master lisp, not where the task would be executed. 2015-04-30T16:31:16Z ziocroc quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-30T16:31:40Z jlarocco: I've been writing Lisp on my Raspberry Pi, and I was wondering if there's a QuickLisp dist setup for Pi specific libraries? 2015-04-30T16:32:03Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:32:33Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:33:16Z jlarocco: For example, I wrote a wrapper around WiringPi, allowing access to the Pi's GPIO ports, but it breaks the rules of the standard QuickLisp dist, because it will fail to build on everything except a Pi with wiringPi installed 2015-04-30T16:33:31Z trinque joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:33:31Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T16:33:49Z akkad: #+arch sort of flag requirements? 2015-04-30T16:35:11Z jlarocco: yeah, I think that might work 2015-04-30T16:38:04Z Goopyo quit (Quit: Goopyo) 2015-04-30T16:38:14Z sz0 quit (Quit: Bye.) 2015-04-30T16:38:39Z Goopyo joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:38:58Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:39:10Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:41:10Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T16:42:01Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T16:44:48Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T16:46:46Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:48:30Z wz1000 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:49:04Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:49:12Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:49:20Z leafybas_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T16:49:42Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:49:46Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T16:49:54Z yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:52:44Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-30T16:53:40Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T16:56:39Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T16:59:42Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-30T17:00:12Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2015-04-30T17:00:50Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-04-30T17:01:28Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T17:02:22Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T17:02:50Z jackdaniel: luis: could you post an example? 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-30T17:13:28Z girrig quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-30T17:13:36Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-30T17:14:11Z girrig joined #lisp 2015-04-30T17:14:53Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T17:15:10Z jackdaniel: nvm, I see 2015-04-30T17:16:06Z burtons joined #lisp 2015-04-30T17:17:18Z jackdaniel: luis: try package-name::symbol instead of package-name:symbol 2015-04-30T17:17:22Z jackdaniel: works for me :p 2015-04-30T17:17:54Z ziocroc2 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T17:18:39Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T17:18:40Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T17:18:54Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-04-30T17:19:45Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T17:20:24Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-30T17:20:24Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T17:21:45Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2015-04-30T17:23:16Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-04-30T17:26:47Z akkad still can't believe sbcl is an order faster than a $1500 lisp 2015-04-30T17:28:00Z oGMo: which one 2015-04-30T17:28:06Z hlavaty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T17:28:26Z akkad: clhs one 2015-04-30T17:28:26Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for one. 2015-04-30T17:28:39Z oGMo: akkad: lispworks? interesting 2015-04-30T17:28:51Z akkad: oGMo yeah 64bit enterprise edition 2015-04-30T17:29:03Z oGMo: of course speed is a tricky issue, optimizations vary wildly, etc 2015-04-30T17:29:34Z Zhivago: I'll sell you a copy of clisp for $1500. 2015-04-30T17:29:45Z akkad: yeah ironclad, chipz, have big sbcl optimizations too 2015-04-30T17:29:54Z Zhivago: Still, lispworks has a lovely IDE, I hear. 2015-04-30T17:29:57Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-04-30T17:30:08Z akkad: it does more for you. :P 2015-04-30T17:30:10Z H4ns: they also have a nice cross-platform gui toolkit 2015-04-30T17:30:26Z oGMo: akkad: it's probably not surprising, the authors probably have no access or little reason to test/optimize for LW 2015-04-30T17:30:32Z PuercoPop: akkad: but isn't the main selling point of lispworks its libraries? 2015-04-30T17:30:38Z akkad: H4ns if only we could fundraiser to liberate capi :P 2015-04-30T17:31:05Z oGMo: use gtk? 2015-04-30T17:31:18Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T17:32:00Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T17:35:17Z Posterdati quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-04-30T17:36:48Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-30T17:37:24Z JJaskologist joined #lisp 2015-04-30T17:37:51Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T17:37:53Z specbot quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-30T17:37:55Z specbot joined #lisp 2015-04-30T17:38:16Z _sjs_ joined #lisp 2015-04-30T17:38:42Z dsp__ joined #lisp 2015-04-30T17:38:46Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-04-30T17:38:48Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T17:39:37Z Oladon1 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T17:39:46Z Oladon quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-30T17:39:48Z Oladon1 is now known as Oladon 2015-04-30T17:39:49Z girrig quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 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It is not working 2015-04-30T19:30:21Z Bicyclidine: probably you mean isn't working, so you'll want to do something like (map (lambda (list) (apply #'foo list)) ...) 2015-04-30T19:30:33Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T19:31:16Z emaczen: I think I'm going to have to make a paste give me a few minutes 2015-04-30T19:31:34Z redline6561 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T19:31:42Z redline6561 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T19:31:50Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T19:32:01Z vert2_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T19:32:02Z zeroish quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T19:32:02Z lieven quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T19:32:02Z newcup quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T19:32:04Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T19:33:25Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T19:33:26Z sigjuice quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T19:33:26Z trn quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T19:33:34Z sigjuice_ joined #lisp 2015-04-30T19:33:41Z vert2 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T19:33:49Z thomas joined #lisp 2015-04-30T19:33:55Z lieven joined #lisp 2015-04-30T19:34:17Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T19:34:19Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-04-30T19:34:37Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-04-30T19:34:48Z trn joined #lisp 2015-04-30T19:34:51Z ziocroc2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T19:35:18Z ziocroc2 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T19:35:27Z Kruppe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-04-30T19:35:45Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-30T19:36:19Z Kruppe joined #lisp 2015-04-30T19:36:25Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T19:38:17Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-04-30T19:38:33Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T19:41:20Z ziocroc2 is now known as ziocroc 2015-04-30T19:41:50Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T19:42:20Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T19:44:40Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-30T19:45:04Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-30T19:46:51Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T19:47:10Z linkcr quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T19:47:47Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T19:47:54Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T19:55:08Z antgreen joined #lisp 2015-04-30T19:55:20Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-30T19:56:29Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-30T19:57:30Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-04-30T19:59:52Z emaczen: Bicyclidine: http://paste.lisp.org/+35Y2 2015-04-30T20:00:47Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T20:00:48Z Bicyclidine: emaczen: oh. apply #'map, then. 2015-04-30T20:01:37Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:01:45Z eudoxia: wow, this clack/lack update has fucked some shit up 2015-04-30T20:01:50Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:01:54Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:02:31Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T20:02:37Z emaczen: Bicyclidine: Thanks that works! 2015-04-30T20:03:05Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:03:07Z Goopyo joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:04:34Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T20:04:35Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-30T20:05:55Z emaczen: Bicyclidine: Autodoc in the minibuffer makes me think that apply #'map is a thing? 2015-04-30T20:05:58Z emaczen: clhs apply #'map 2015-04-30T20:06:02Z emaczen: ,clhs apply #'map 2015-04-30T20:06:03Z Goopyo quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-30T20:07:15Z Bicyclidine: emaczen: map is just a normal function, so you can apply it like any other function. 2015-04-30T20:07:24Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:07:37Z Bicyclidine: emaczen: slime is rigged so that (apply #'foo ...) gives you an adjusted lambda list based on foo's, it's nothing specific to apply and map together, just apply. 2015-04-30T20:07:38Z PuercoPop: emaczen: apply splices the the last argument if it is a list 2015-04-30T20:07:51Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:08:27Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:08:38Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:08:40Z Bicyclidine: emaczen: e.g. with (apply #'mapcar|, slime tells you the arguments for mapcar. 2015-04-30T20:10:50Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T20:11:50Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T20:11:58Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-30T20:12:11Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:14:05Z bjorkintosh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-30T20:14:44Z Patzy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T20:14:51Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:15:32Z gniourf_gniourf joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:18:05Z scotOSX joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:18:28Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:18:39Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:20:25Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-30T20:20:29Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-30T20:22:15Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T20:22:29Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:23:22Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:24:46Z Goopyo joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:26:33Z lieven quit (Changing host) 2015-04-30T20:26:33Z lieven joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:28:12Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:28:13Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T20:29:49Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-30T20:29:58Z pyon quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-30T20:31:57Z ndrei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T20:33:13Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:33:13Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T20:33:14Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:34:25Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:36:07Z yukawa21 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:38:13Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:39:14Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T20:39:26Z yukawa21 quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-30T20:39:26Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-30T20:40:12Z rhllor quit (Quit: rhllor) 2015-04-30T20:41:02Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:44:13Z JJaskologist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-30T20:45:07Z sunwukong` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T20:45:46Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:48:25Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:48:48Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-30T20:49:50Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:51:12Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T20:52:40Z nell joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:53:23Z nell is now known as alusion 2015-04-30T20:54:57Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:55:51Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T20:56:55Z Jaskologist joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:58:11Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:58:32Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-04-30T20:59:48Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-04-30T21:00:11Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-30T21:00:17Z circ-user-7Agbq joined #lisp 2015-04-30T21:03:24Z scotOSX quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-30T21:06:07Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T21:06:07Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T21:10:12Z Patzy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T21:10:19Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-30T21:11:06Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T21:11:39Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T21:14:57Z roang quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T21:15:33Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-30T21:17:29Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-04-30T21:17:32Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-04-30T21:17:43Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T21:18:24Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T21:18:42Z bthom1 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T21:19:21Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T21:22:23Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-30T21:23:30Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-30T21:23:52Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-30T21:29:30Z emaczen`: I'm having some trouble with terminal printing and I think it is related to flushing output -- what functions can I look further into? To solve issues like this before, I placed finish-output after format forms but this isn't working. 2015-04-30T21:30:27Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T21:32:34Z Jubb quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T21:33:32Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-04-30T21:33:45Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-04-30T21:34:42Z alusion quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-30T21:35:06Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T21:36:02Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T21:39:03Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T21:39:12Z trilakin: ahh it's a wonderful day 2015-04-30T21:39:23Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-04-30T21:39:55Z Xach: emaczen`: force-output is another option 2015-04-30T21:40:16Z Xach: emaczen`: are the format forms writing to the expected stream? is it being bound to a different destination perhaps? 2015-04-30T21:41:20Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T21:41:49Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T21:43:02Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2015-04-30T21:43:10Z Xach: eudoxia: new failure in lucerne 2015-04-30T21:43:19Z eudoxia: what 2015-04-30T21:43:21Z Xach: eudoxia: READ error during COMPILE-FILE: Symbol "" not found in the CLACK 2015-04-30T21:43:25Z Xach: package 2015-04-30T21:43:48Z eudoxia: ayy lmao well clack-errors is fixed now i'll take care of lucerne now 2015-04-30T21:44:00Z Xach: tusen tack 2015-04-30T21:44:24Z Xach: eudoxia: corona still busted with clack.middleware.statick 2015-04-30T21:44:27Z Xach: static rather 2015-04-30T21:45:02Z eudoxia: i assumed 2015-04-30T21:46:11Z Goopyo quit (Quit: Goopyo) 2015-04-30T21:46:54Z flash- quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-30T21:47:47Z Goopyo joined #lisp 2015-04-30T21:49:01Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-30T21:49:46Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-30T21:50:25Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-30T21:51:15Z Goopyo quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-30T21:52:36Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T21:52:39Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T21:55:11Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-30T21:56:08Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-30T21:56:08Z nell joined #lisp 2015-04-30T21:57:36Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T21:57:46Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-04-30T21:58:38Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T22:02:21Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-04-30T22:03:34Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T22:03:39Z bgs100 quit (Changing host) 2015-04-30T22:03:39Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T22:04:14Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T22:05:08Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T22:07:11Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-30T22:07:18Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-04-30T22:10:49Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T22:11:45Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T22:13:14Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-30T22:13:38Z eudoxia: clack-v1-compat... isn't 2015-04-30T22:16:58Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T22:17:17Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T22:20:39Z pyon quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-30T22:21:59Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T22:22:26Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T22:23:16Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-04-30T22:26:08Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-04-30T22:26:23Z a2015 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-30T22:26:59Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T22:27:31Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T22:28:25Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-04-30T22:28:28Z vdamewood quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-04-30T22:30:27Z nubist joined #lisp 2015-04-30T22:32:03Z linkcr joined #lisp 2015-04-30T22:32:38Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-04-30T22:33:30Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T22:35:40Z jfe joined #lisp 2015-04-30T22:35:48Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T22:35:59Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-30T22:37:44Z burtons quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T22:39:07Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-30T22:43:35Z linkcr quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-30T22:44:41Z nubist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T22:50:14Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-30T22:51:05Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T22:52:01Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T22:57:54Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T22:57:55Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-04-30T22:58:16Z dmiles_afk quit 2015-04-30T22:58:32Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: where you farm for fish) 2015-04-30T22:59:02Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T23:00:11Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-04-30T23:00:21Z emaczen: Xach: All of my format forms either print to the console or nil. Apprently printing to nil returns a string. 2015-04-30T23:04:28Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T23:07:12Z bipt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T23:07:29Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-04-30T23:10:29Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T23:12:47Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-30T23:13:33Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-04-30T23:13:35Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-30T23:16:08Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T23:16:21Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-04-30T23:17:57Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T23:19:15Z pinterface1 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T23:19:51Z pinterface1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-30T23:20:07Z pinterface joined #lisp 2015-04-30T23:20:08Z eudoxia: Xach: i think they should all at least build and mostly pass their tests now 2015-04-30T23:23:13Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-30T23:23:45Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T23:24:01Z renopt quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-30T23:24:10Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T23:25:09Z renopt joined #lisp 2015-04-30T23:26:36Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-30T23:28:44Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T23:29:36Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T23:29:52Z renopt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T23:30:17Z renopt joined #lisp 2015-04-30T23:34:14Z a2015_ joined #lisp 2015-04-30T23:35:16Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-04-30T23:35:20Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T23:35:32Z circ-user-7Agbq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-30T23:35:37Z Xach: eudoxia: looks green to me, thanks. 2015-04-30T23:35:45Z eudoxia: neat 2015-04-30T23:35:55Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T23:36:28Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-30T23:36:56Z Xach preps an alpha 2015-04-30T23:38:37Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-04-30T23:39:12Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-30T23:39:39Z renopt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T23:41:45Z renopt joined #lisp 2015-04-30T23:41:55Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T23:42:53Z jasom is looking at quicklisp-bundle for deployment of services 2015-04-30T23:43:29Z jasom: I've used image dumps in the past for it, but the boost to startup time isn't really necessary for long-running services 2015-04-30T23:44:37Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-30T23:46:05Z Xach: i dunno, i picture an image as sort of the culmination of bundling 2015-04-30T23:46:11Z Xach: bundled right into an image! 2015-04-30T23:46:44Z Slothel quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-30T23:47:00Z Slothel joined #lisp 2015-04-30T23:47:05Z Slothel: Hey guys 2015-04-30T23:47:12Z jimmie_ joined #lisp 2015-04-30T23:48:56Z Xach: Howdy Slothel 2015-04-30T23:49:03Z jasom: hi Slothel 2015-04-30T23:49:23Z Slothel: Another day in prison, heh. 2015-04-30T23:49:28Z Slothel: Luckily tomorrow is my day off 2015-04-30T23:50:00Z jasom: Slothel: 9/80? 2015-04-30T23:50:25Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T23:50:26Z Slothel: jasom: yep 2015-04-30T23:50:53Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-04-30T23:51:13Z jasom: my dad's on that, and occasionally he actually doesn't have to go in on his Friday off 2015-04-30T23:51:33Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T23:53:15Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T23:55:17Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-30T23:55:34Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-04-30T23:56:05Z renopt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-30T23:56:57Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)