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2015-03-26T03:34:25Z Slothel: hey quick question
2015-03-26T03:34:43Z Slothel: Im running through a beginner lisp tutorial that is showing how to nest function calls like (car (cdr '(1 2 3)))
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2015-03-26T03:35:14Z Slothel: is there a way I can use a variable to determine which element to grab instead of explicitly writing cdr n times to get the element
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2015-03-26T03:35:32Z |3b|: clhs nth
2015-03-26T03:35:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nth.htm
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2015-03-26T03:36:04Z Slothel: sure I would assume there's already a function that does that but I'd like to know how it works
2015-03-26T03:36:29Z |3b|: probably a loop of some sort
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2015-03-26T03:39:32Z SAL9000: possibly something like (defun nth (n list) (if (== n 0) (car list) (nth (1- n) list)))
2015-03-26T03:39:51Z SAL9000: sorry, should be
2015-03-26T03:39:56Z SAL9000: (defun nth (n list) (if (== n 0) (car list) (nth (1- n) (cdr list))))
2015-03-26T03:40:49Z Slothel: hey, thanks!
2015-03-26T03:40:51Z Slothel: that makes sense
2015-03-26T03:41:19Z |3b|: note that you shouldn't actually do that in CL (which is the topic of this channel) since CL doesn't guarantee tail call elimination
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2015-03-26T03:41:35Z Slothel: Don't shoot me for my stupidity but I think it would be cool if you could use a function as a function name when defining your own functions so that you could use a return value from one to spawn another function
2015-03-26T03:42:16Z Bike: i do not understand what you mean
2015-03-26T03:42:21Z |3b| doesn't either
2015-03-26T03:43:14Z |3b|: you can return functions from functions, but you can't do something like ((returns-a-function) 1 2 3), you need (funcall (returns-a-function) 1 2 3)
2015-03-26T03:43:34Z |3b|: in CL at least, the former can work in scheme i think
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2015-03-26T03:43:55Z SAL9000: CL-USER> ((lambda (x) (1+ x)) 2)
2015-03-26T03:43:56Z SAL9000: 3
2015-03-26T03:44:14Z |3b|: right, LAMBDA is a special case, it doesn't return a function in that form
2015-03-26T03:44:38Z |3b|: it is evaluated directly with special rules
2015-03-26T03:44:59Z Slothel: Ah. No basically the idea I have in my head is using returns from functions to generate other functions where the function-body is generated by the return value so you basically have like a meta-programming thing
2015-03-26T03:45:04Z Slothel: I know I'm not making much sense.
2015-03-26T03:45:14Z Bike: sounds like a macro.
2015-03-26T03:45:20Z SAL9000: clhs defmacro
2015-03-26T03:45:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmac.htm
2015-03-26T03:45:59Z |3b|: yeah, macro might be what you want (but you probably should avoid them until you learn more), or you can compile arbitrary things at runtime if you really need to
2015-03-26T03:46:38Z SAL9000: |3b|: just tested that with nested lambdas. I stand corrected.
2015-03-26T03:47:41Z |3b|: SAL9000: presumably you could distinguish it with *macroexpand-hook* as well, but i'm too lazy to check that at the moment, and the spec is pretty clear about it being a special evaluation rule anyway
2015-03-26T03:50:35Z fugue: r5rs let*
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2015-03-26T03:54:10Z Zhivago: Lambda is a special case because it names a function -- itself.
2015-03-26T03:54:16Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-03-26T03:54:57Z Zhivago: Handling cases like ((x) y) isn't hard, but then it becomes hard when you try to generalize it to (let ((a (x)) (a y))
2015-03-26T03:55:37Z Zhivago: So you need something to discriminate that case, such as (funcall a y), which brings us back to the current state of affairs.
2015-03-26T03:55:52Z Zhivago: At which point you might as well just write (funcall (x) y)
2015-03-26T03:56:44Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-03-26T03:57:33Z Slothel: I have to say this is one of the more civil programming channels I've ever been on.
2015-03-26T03:57:36Z Slothel: That is all.
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2015-03-26T03:58:34Z beach: Slothel: What prompted you to say that?  I am asking because #lisp is the only one I frequent.
2015-03-26T03:58:35Z drmeister: It's so nice working with LaTeX again.  No messing with menus and fonts.
2015-03-26T03:59:11Z drmeister: Slothel: Wait until someone mentions hygienic macros - that's when the knives come out.
2015-03-26T03:59:45Z Slothel: drmeister: Just because I asked a question and did not get any insults or subtle digs thrown my way
2015-03-26T04:00:06Z Slothel: drmeister: Which, given my experience on #archlinux and a few other channels, is not common
2015-03-26T04:00:39Z Bike: clever digs are usually reserved for other languages/systems, so you're already well on your way
2015-03-26T04:00:53Z aeth: hmm... Lisp 1 or Lisp 2? :-p
2015-03-26T04:01:32Z beach: drmeister: How is the paper going?
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2015-03-26T04:03:47Z beach: No answer; that's a bad sign.
2015-03-26T04:05:12Z drmeister: I dunno - I wrote a bunch of stuff - and LaTeX made it look absolutely fabulous!
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2015-03-26T04:05:26Z beach: That's its job.
2015-03-26T04:07:16Z drmeister: I'm making tea - back in a few min.
2015-03-26T04:09:13Z drmeister: Slothel - I'm glad you like it - I've learned an enormous amount hanging out here.
2015-03-26T04:10:32Z drmeister: beach: I have two pages of prose - do you mind if I send it to you - it's a bit raw but you could give me some course correction if it's necessary.
2015-03-26T04:10:52Z Slothel: drmeister: I'd love to sit down some day and just learn latex, but I never seem to get the time. I've forced myself to learn Lisp by using it for this next project I'm working on. I'm the type of learner that needs some sort of project to really apply what I learn
2015-03-26T04:11:02Z beach: drmeister: Go right ahead.
2015-03-26T04:12:18Z drmeister: Slothel: If someone asked me which one to learn: Lisp or LaTeX I'd say Lisp 100 times over before I said LaTeX.
2015-03-26T04:12:56Z Slothel: drmeister: True, I just wish there were more hours in the day so I could learn both ^^
2015-03-26T04:15:32Z drmeister: beach: Uh - can you handle a DVI file?   Or do you want the .tex file or PDF?
2015-03-26T04:15:51Z beach: PDF is best.  Use pdflatex.
2015-03-26T04:16:03Z Slothel: I know this is valuable to learn because right now coding is fun again, I haven't been excited about code in awhile
2015-03-26T04:16:15Z Slothel: I think I got burnt out on C
2015-03-26T04:17:32Z drmeister: Adobe Acrobat makes PDF's look like dog food on a retina mac.
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2015-03-26T04:18:13Z drmeister: I'm using Skim to view the DVI files.  Muah!
2015-03-26T04:18:23Z drmeister flares his fingers out from his lips.
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2015-03-26T04:18:59Z beach: There are plenty of decent PDF readers out there: Evince, xpdf, etc.
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2015-03-26T04:19:19Z beach: What's the KDE one again?
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2015-03-26T04:19:45Z drmeister: I'll shut up about how beautiful the output is now.   I wrote my thesis in LaTeX - it's a sight for sore eyes after 20 years of Microsoft Word.
2015-03-26T04:20:17Z beach: drmeister: You live in a strange world.
2015-03-26T04:21:03Z drmeister: I'm only in Chemistry because I need to make molecules.
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2015-03-26T04:21:19Z drmeister: It wasn't for the molecules - I'd be so out of here.
2015-03-26T04:22:10Z drmeister: Oh - you are waiting for a PDF - hang on.
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2015-03-26T04:22:40Z beach: drmeister: No rush.  I think it is best that I read it while you sleep.
2015-03-26T04:22:43Z beach: No?
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2015-03-26T04:25:27Z beach: drmeister: Don't worry about it.  DVI is fine.
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2015-03-26T04:26:28Z drmeister: No problem - I need to put it aside 'till tomorrow.   I wanted to get it to you so I can work on my lecture for tomorrow and maybe spend a few minutes tracking down an UNWIND bug in CClasp.
2015-03-26T04:26:55Z drmeister: DO-SYMBOLS goes into an infinite loop.
2015-03-26T04:26:57Z beach: That's fine.  I have plenty to read.
2015-03-26T04:28:09Z drmeister: I have to get some source code debugging working in CClasp - it's driving me nuts.
2015-03-26T04:28:20Z drmeister: Source code tracking.
2015-03-26T04:29:19Z beach: drmeister: I shall need that too very soon.  I am now at a point where I have a SICL REPL and I am going to need debugging tools.
2015-03-26T04:29:23Z drmeister: I am getting better at debugging in assembly code.
2015-03-26T04:29:40Z Slothel: Is it worthwhile to learn assembly anymore
2015-03-26T04:30:03Z beach: Slothel: Only if you are writing a backend for a compiler probably.
2015-03-26T04:30:09Z drmeister: Slothel - Absolutely - it's also very gratifying.
2015-03-26T04:30:54Z drmeister: It's something few people do and so it's like a secret power you can develop.
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2015-03-26T04:31:44Z drmeister: But then - I am working with a backend of a compiler.
2015-03-26T04:31:54Z |3b|: beach: also useful if you need to read the output of a compiler for whatever reason (debugging, reverse engineering, etc), though "reading" and "writing" might imply different levels of learning
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2015-03-26T04:32:13Z beach: |3b|: Good point.
2015-03-26T04:32:51Z Slothel: I'm also enjoying how everything in Lisp seems general enough that you dont actually have to know the 'type' of function paramaters
2015-03-26T04:32:53Z Bike: or you're on some embedded machine and don't want to use C, or a few other reasons
2015-03-26T04:33:07Z |3b| would say it is "worthwhile", but lots of things are, so you need to prioritize, and it might not be very high on the list depending on your goals
2015-03-26T04:34:11Z Bike: of course, it's a lot easier to learn ARM or MIPS or something, rather than x86, except x86 is probably what your PC uses
2015-03-26T04:34:44Z Slothel: I think I'd like to learn it for the sole purpose that it might help me understand what my programs are actually doing to the machine
2015-03-26T04:34:52Z Slothel: Which I sort of lack an intuition for currently
2015-03-26T04:35:27Z |3b| might rate learning cache architectures above asm these days
2015-03-26T04:35:30Z Bike: depends on what "actually" and "the machine" mean. most assembly languages are pretty high level nowadays, because everyone loves abstractions
2015-03-26T04:36:43Z Slothel: hmm
2015-03-26T04:37:10Z Slothel: I want to go really low-level. I know how to do Big O analysis but that isn't quite sufficient
2015-03-26T04:37:22Z Slothel: I want to write more efficient code
2015-03-26T04:37:28Z Bike: i can recommend you a few books on transistor physics :p
2015-03-26T04:37:32Z Slothel: haha
2015-03-26T04:37:38Z Slothel: That's something I'd actually read tbh
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2015-03-26T04:38:56Z beach: There is a very good book out there called "Inner Loops".  Unfortunately, after it was written, timing machine code became totally impossible on most processors because of things like speculative execution, branch prediction, cache behavior, etc, etc.
2015-03-26T04:40:13Z Slothel: beach: Might it still have some education merit though? I'm interested in anything that helps me understand low-level concepts
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2015-03-26T04:41:03Z SAL9000: as far as I know, for efficient code you need data locality (less cache thrashing) and minimum (unpredictable) branching.
2015-03-26T04:41:05Z Bike: the difficulty is that computers are pretty complex and abstractions are always leaky. transistors _usually_ don't matter to code you write, but you can dope them wrong to fuck up a CSPRNG or something. cache doesn't matter by some metrics but does by others
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2015-03-26T04:41:59Z Slothel: Bike: Can you recommend me any transistor physics books that require only a Calc 2 understanding of maths?
2015-03-26T04:42:20Z Slothel: Most of the textbooks I've skimmed use a lot more difficult maths than I understand currently
2015-03-26T04:42:43Z Bike: How's your electrodynamics and solids chemistry?
2015-03-26T04:42:43Z Slothel: For instance I tried to read Elements of Statistical Machine Learning and had to give up at Chapter 3
2015-03-26T04:43:00Z Bike: well, i guess generally i'd try Mead. dude makes nonlinearity look easy
2015-03-26T04:43:12Z Slothel: Bike: I know basically nothing. At this point I've taken Physics 1. I'm still in college.
2015-03-26T04:44:21Z Bike: i don't know if there's much point trying without some familiarity with circuits, at least from my experience. also sorry this is off topic.
2015-03-26T04:45:30Z Bike: I took a logic circuits class at my school that involved CMOS drawings of logic gates, but once I learned some circuits I realized I actually learned very little from that part of that class.
2015-03-26T04:46:01Z Bike: well, if you're at school the best thing to do is hang out in the library and bug professors, really.
2015-03-26T04:46:26Z Slothel: Yeah.. I have tremendous social anxiety which makes talking to them nearly impossible
2015-03-26T04:46:33Z Slothel: But I guess I'll just take a bunch of classes
2015-03-26T04:46:40Z Slothel: I was looking into EE at one point but went the CS route instead
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2015-03-26T04:47:38Z Bike: i've found EE education more preferable, but that's just me. and don't feel too anxious about talking to professors, they love talking about themselves.
2015-03-26T04:47:50Z Zhivago: A bit like women, then.
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2015-03-26T04:49:23Z Bike: I don't want to be civil in response to bizarre unprompted sexism by an op so I'm going to leave for a bit, ta
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2015-03-26T05:10:52Z beach: Slothel: Yes, it's still a good book.
2015-03-26T05:12:35Z Slothel: ?
2015-03-26T05:12:54Z beach: Inner Loops
2015-03-26T05:12:59Z Slothel: Oh, yes.
2015-03-26T05:13:06Z beach: Sorry, I was away.
2015-03-26T05:13:12Z Slothel: Hey so I just had a weird thought, it might be stupid but then again it might not be
2015-03-26T05:13:15Z beach: In the Common Lisp HyperSpec, we are told that places can be macro forms and how they are then treated.  We are also told that this is how SETF deals with places.  But where does it say that GET-SETF-EXPANSION is in charge of possible macro expansion?
2015-03-26T05:13:24Z Slothel: Is there a way to calculate referential information like...take this channel for example
2015-03-26T05:13:36Z Slothel: I know that a certain number of bits can express all the text that has gone through this channel tonight
2015-03-26T05:13:51Z Slothel: But it could be in actuality quite *information* low, like if we all just posted 0's endlessly for example
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2015-03-26T05:14:06Z Slothel: Whereas a tutorial on applying a Laplace Transform would be *information high*
2015-03-26T05:14:09Z Slothel: If you get what I mean
2015-03-26T05:15:05Z beach: Slothel: There is no general way of computing it.  But you get a decent idea if you compress it, say using gzip --best.
2015-03-26T05:15:36Z Slothel: Oh ok, that makes sense.
2015-03-26T05:16:44Z beach: Also with respect to places: Is it possible that there might be some Common Lisp operator that must treat places differently, so that either it can't use GET-SETF-EXPANSION, or so that GET-SET-EXPANSION can't be in charge of macro expanding the place?
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2015-03-26T05:16:56Z beach: And if not, where can this information be found in the Common Lisp HyperSpec?
2015-03-26T05:19:19Z |3b|: clhs 5.1.1.1
2015-03-26T05:19:19Z specbot: Evaluation of Subforms to Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_aaa.htm
2015-03-26T05:20:01Z |3b|: seems pretty clear, but maybe i'm not understanding the question
2015-03-26T05:20:29Z |3b|: or maybe not
2015-03-26T05:20:39Z |3b| might also be up too late :p
2015-03-26T05:20:39Z beach: reading...
2015-03-26T05:21:34Z beach: Yeah, maybe not. :(
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2015-03-26T05:22:31Z |3b|: i think get-setf-expansion isn't "in charge of" anything besides providing information the SETF macro uses
2015-03-26T05:23:45Z beach: But when I call GET-SETF-EXPANSION in SBCL on (say) (MM ...) in an environment where MM is defined as a macro, SBCL expands the macro first.
2015-03-26T05:24:47Z beach: If this is conforming behavior, I would like to see where the Common Lisp HyperSpec says so, if possible.
2015-03-26T05:25:10Z |3b|: yeah, i guess it does do a good chunk of the actual work of SETF
2015-03-26T05:25:15Z beach: Maybe my question is not clear.  If I have (SETF (MM ...) ...) and MM is a macro, then it should be expanded, provided that there is no SETF expander for MM.  But who does the expansion?  SETF or GET-SETF-EXPANSION?
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2015-03-26T05:26:03Z |3b|: i think get-setf-expansion need to do so, so user code can use the results
2015-03-26T05:26:33Z |3b|: though setf is presumably allowed to do whatever it wants within the constraints of the macro's spec
2015-03-26T05:26:39Z beach: That's certainly what SBCL does and that makes a lot of sense so that it is not the responsibility of each operator to do it.
2015-03-26T05:28:25Z beach: But I don't see where the Common Lisp HyperSpec says this, and I don't see it specified in other operators that use places.  For all I know, only SETF macroexpands the place as described and other operators don't.
2015-03-26T05:30:15Z beach: Some operators, such as ROTATEF and SHIFTF show the behavior in terms of SETF so they must macroexpand as well.   But I am pretty sure there are operators that only mention that some argument is a "place".
2015-03-26T05:30:54Z |3b|: clhs 5.1.2.7
2015-03-26T05:30:54Z specbot: Macro Forms as Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_abg.htm
2015-03-26T05:31:41Z beach: Hmm.  I guess you are right.  "Common Lisp expands the macro form..."
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2015-03-26T05:32:01Z beach: which suggests that this happens any time such a place is used.
2015-03-26T05:32:12Z beach: |3b|: Thanks!
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2015-03-26T05:34:03Z beach: Note to self: In Common Lisp version 2, mention that GET-SETF-EXPANSION is in charge of macro expansion.
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2015-03-26T05:37:40Z Zhivago: Why don't you go for version three? Otherwise it's quite confusing with CLTL2.
2015-03-26T05:37:59Z beach: Yeah, maybe so.
2015-03-26T05:38:12Z beach: You are not the only one mentioning this.
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2015-03-26T05:42:01Z beach: But then some people will ask what happened to version 2.  I think I had better come up with some other way of referring to it.
2015-03-26T05:45:26Z Zhivago: CLTNG.
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2015-03-26T05:46:11Z Zhivago: You could always call it NewLisp :)
2015-03-26T05:46:48Z beach: I need to think about it.  It is not urgent.
2015-03-26T05:50:23Z jasom: also someone has a CL with a name themed to the 21st century ... fukamachi maybe?
2015-03-26T05:50:42Z beach: Yeah.  CL21
2015-03-26T05:50:47Z jasom: http://cl21.org/  <-- there it is
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2015-03-26T05:50:57Z Zhivago: CL is the steampunk of languages. It doesn't suit the 21st century.
2015-03-26T05:51:03Z Zhivago: T, on the other hand ...
2015-03-26T05:51:15Z beach: jasom: But that's quite different from what I am planning.
2015-03-26T05:52:24Z jasom: also drewc's CLtL3
2015-03-26T05:53:51Z jasom: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Pb6qgX_6YvIJ:ilc2009.scheming.org/node/48+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
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2015-03-26T06:21:56Z Zhivago: Watch out for bad monkeys.
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2015-03-26T06:28:37Z beach: Zhivago: ?
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2015-03-26T06:33:23Z Zhivago: beach: sunwukong.
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2015-03-26T06:41:18Z pillton: I think something is wrong with the CCL log bot.
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2015-03-26T06:44:10Z sunwukong: Zhivago: I'm already reformed, thanks to a long journey to the West...
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2015-03-26T06:46:05Z pillton: It would be good if you could introduce a setf expander without using a macro.
2015-03-26T06:47:09Z pillton: It would also be good if the store variables weren't substituted prior to calling the setf expander.
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2015-03-26T07:05:33Z beach: pillton: In SICL, you can use the generic function (SETF SETF-EXPANDER) to introduce a setf expander in a first-class global environment.
2015-03-26T07:05:59Z pillton: beach: Nice.
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2015-03-26T07:12:32Z beach: Time to get to work!
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2015-03-26T07:50:32Z Shinmera: Is there an emacs/slime command to yank with string escape rules? As in, yanking foo"bar\baz is put into the buffer as foo\"bar\\baz
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2015-03-26T08:54:26Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I don't think so.
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2015-03-26T09:03:08Z flip214: Value of NIL in ... is NIL, not a NIL.
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2015-03-26T10:09:52Z troll-: lisp is fookin garbage
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2015-03-26T10:10:16Z hitecnologys: troll-: do you have more to share with us?
2015-03-26T10:10:25Z troll-: you fucking nugget
2015-03-26T10:10:49Z hitecnologys: I may be, but what about you?
2015-03-26T10:11:09Z troll-: suck my cock
2015-03-26T10:11:30Z joga: wouldn't that be pedophilia?
2015-03-26T10:11:30Z jackdaniel: isn't it that zool from yesterday?
2015-03-26T10:11:30Z hitecnologys: Sombody, please ban this gentleman. He's incapable of constructive discussion.
2015-03-26T10:11:46Z troll-: bitchass punk
2015-03-26T10:11:49Z clintm: Aww, come on, troll... at least be creative.
2015-03-26T10:11:58Z hitecnologys: Indeed.
2015-03-26T10:12:20Z hitecnologys: I miss those original trolls. Nowadays they're like bots.
2015-03-26T10:12:32Z jackdaniel: you know, you could say something more on-topic. like, erm, idk, parenthesis isn't *original*, but it's better then nothing. something like too many parenthesis ;)
2015-03-26T10:12:43Z clintm: or "clojure is clearly the way and the light"
2015-03-26T10:13:00Z troll-: fuck off n1gger
2015-03-26T10:13:22Z joga: nice censoring there
2015-03-26T10:13:24Z jackdaniel: (setf troll nil) ;-)
2015-03-26T10:13:31Z clintm: or maybe "McCarthy stole lisp from Rich Hickey"
2015-03-26T10:13:46Z troll-: lisp is for virgins
2015-03-26T10:13:47Z clintm: jack and I's suggestions are pretty good, imo.  You shoudl take notes.
2015-03-26T10:13:50Z joga: guess this channel is quiet enough for people to actually talk to trolls
2015-03-26T10:13:53Z troll-: bitchass punks
2015-03-26T10:14:07Z hitecnologys: Oh, here we go! The loop!
2015-03-26T10:14:16Z clintm: eliza bot, maybe?
2015-03-26T10:14:17Z joga: nah this is in plural
2015-03-26T10:14:17Z clintm: heh
2015-03-26T10:14:21Z jackdaniel: lisp is for virgins -- lisp is for ppl of pure hearts ;D
2015-03-26T10:14:26Z hitecnologys: Bleh, right.
2015-03-26T10:14:29Z troll-: punk madafaka
2015-03-26T10:14:48Z joga: probably someone teaching their little brother to play badass on irc
2015-03-26T10:14:53Z hitecnologys: Maybe he's on Markov chains?
2015-03-26T10:15:02Z perl_startup: lol
2015-03-26T10:15:04Z joga: insufflated markov chains do that to you, yes
2015-03-26T10:15:05Z brucem: It is probably just a 6 year old child.
2015-03-26T10:15:12Z brucem: maybe 7.
2015-03-26T10:15:18Z troll-: fuck you
2015-03-26T10:15:30Z joga: no, it would be illegal
2015-03-26T10:15:39Z jackdaniel: sufficiently primitive AI is impossible to differen tiate then 6 yo
2015-03-26T10:15:40Z jackdaniel: ;D
2015-03-26T10:15:45Z hitecnologys: No, 6-year-old is more intellignent than this specimen over there.
2015-03-26T10:16:03Z troll-: fuck off
2015-03-26T10:16:04Z clintm: I used to imagine that people like Jeff Bezos or Larry Ellison would get on IRC and be a complete retard just for the irony of it iall.
2015-03-26T10:16:11Z hitecnologys: troll-: no you!
2015-03-26T10:16:14Z brucem: troll- actually came to #dylan to harass me there.
2015-03-26T10:16:17Z brucem: I guess he must be 6.
2015-03-26T10:16:26Z hitecnologys: Mmm.
2015-03-26T10:16:36Z jackdaniel: clintm: nice idea idd. when ill be fame and popular, and smart, and everything, ill do that ;d
2015-03-26T10:16:36Z troll-: lisp is for losers
2015-03-26T10:17:11Z hitecnologys: troll-: what exactly are you trying to accomplish by saying that out loud?
2015-03-26T10:17:14Z troll-: loser fags
2015-03-26T10:17:27Z jackdaniel: fags or virgins? (?)
2015-03-26T10:17:36Z troll-: punks
2015-03-26T10:17:37Z clintm: could be both
2015-03-26T10:18:03Z hitecnologys: clintm: don't play with my imagination...
2015-03-26T10:18:03Z Shinmera: Can we stop spamming the chat with bot fodder?
2015-03-26T10:18:04Z jackdaniel: really? tought beeing a fag requires initiation
2015-03-26T10:18:13Z troll-: faggits
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2015-03-26T10:18:27Z axion: /ignore troll-
2015-03-26T10:18:30Z hitecnologys: Right.
2015-03-26T10:18:31Z troll-: stfu fag
2015-03-26T10:18:34Z hitecnologys shuts up
2015-03-26T10:18:38Z Shinmera: axion: I can't ignore all the people reacting to it.
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2015-03-26T10:18:42Z troll-: suck my cock
2015-03-26T10:18:44Z troll-: bitch
2015-03-26T10:18:56Z troll-: lisp noobs
2015-03-26T10:19:16Z clintm hugs troll- 
2015-03-26T10:19:59Z troll-: fuck off
2015-03-26T10:20:10Z troll-: PUNK
2015-03-26T10:20:11Z axion: Shinmera: this is true. i'm uncertain which is more childish, a troll or responding to said troll expecting a constructive result
2015-03-26T10:21:34Z brucem: axion: I've seen the latter happen.
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2015-03-26T10:21:43Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: more on topic: I was always wondering how long did it took for you to develop radiance? I mean the whole planning and designing as well as time you needed to relize you need one included.
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2015-03-26T10:22:12Z clintm: You can tell a lot about a community by how they respond to trolls.  #haskell is a great example.
2015-03-26T10:22:53Z jackdaniel: clintm: you mean?
2015-03-26T10:22:55Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: I started with Radiance as my first project in Lisp, which was... two years ago in June now, I think.
2015-03-26T10:23:00Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I'm asking since I've been doing something similar for quite some time and I'm uncertain whether I should dump it or not since it's very time consuming and prevents me from working.
2015-03-26T10:23:30Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: I finalised development on it in last December.
2015-03-26T10:23:50Z Shinmera: Next is the specification process, followed by implementation corrections and documentation.
2015-03-26T10:23:58Z Shinmera: But code-wise it is complete.
2015-03-26T10:24:19Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: oh, I've been Lisping for about the same time but I'm still doing the system of mine.
2015-03-26T10:24:41Z Shinmera: The history of Radiance goes many years further back though, since it is the fifth iteration in my series of frameworks. The first of which happened in early 2010.
2015-03-26T10:25:02Z hitecnologys: How did you come up with idea?
2015-03-26T10:25:34Z hitecnologys: I ended up needing similar project because duplicative code.
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2015-03-26T10:26:09Z Shinmera: I was doing a webcomic at the time and hated that all websites I knew required people to sign up twice, once for the webcomic section and once for the forum. That was stupid. All other solutions like joomla or wordpress always looked horrible, were a mess to set up and administer, or both. So I started on writing my own that would allow better interaction between various components, which is still the main goal
2015-03-26T10:26:10Z Shinmera: of Radiance.
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2015-03-26T10:26:42Z hitecnologys: I see.
2015-03-26T10:27:18Z Shinmera: Radiance is the first iteration that was really designed to be used for anyone else but me though. I wouldn't want to have anyone else use the previous versions (which were written in PHP).
2015-03-26T10:28:31Z Shinmera: Also see my slides for ELS https://github.com/Shinmera/talks/blob/master/els2015-radiance/slides.pdf
2015-03-26T10:28:34Z hitecnologys: And what's you opinion on anybody else using it now?
2015-03-26T10:29:09Z Shinmera: Right now I still do not suggest it due to the absolute lack of documentation aside from tutorial articles, and the potential to still change during the specification process.
2015-03-26T10:29:22Z hitecnologys: I see.
2015-03-26T10:29:28Z Shinmera: But I've already written a bunch of large projects in it, so it is "ready".
2015-03-26T10:30:12Z dsp_: Shinmera: interesting. i have not seen this before. does it build upon hunchentoot or is it completely from scratch? does it include a http server in it, or does it run on top of another, or?
2015-03-26T10:30:29Z Shinmera: dsp_: Radiance does not care about the server.
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2015-03-26T10:30:45Z Shinmera: It is a web-application environment, more than a framework in the traditional sense.
2015-03-26T10:31:02Z Shinmera: The server, as well as other parts, is implemented in the form of an interface that applications use.
2015-03-26T10:31:23Z Shinmera: The actual implementation of the interface is left up to the developer or end-user/sysop though and can be effortlessly exchanged.
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2015-03-26T10:31:49Z Shinmera: In other words, you can use any server you want.
2015-03-26T10:32:13Z dsp_: so it would be something called via fastcgi or something?
2015-03-26T10:32:19Z Shinmera: I implemented drivers for hunchentoot, wookie, and woo (incomplete) though.
2015-03-26T10:32:38Z Shinmera: If you can fit that into the interface model, possibly, I guess.
2015-03-26T10:32:46Z Shinmera: I don't know anything about CGI, so
2015-03-26T10:32:57Z dsp_: i am just wondering, it sounds like it requires native lisp hooks
2015-03-26T10:33:10Z dsp_: i.e. it is not server agnostic but something you latch on to another lisp app
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2015-03-26T10:34:01Z Shinmera: Unfortunately I can't quite follow what you mean. If you can write a module/lisp code that offers the functions as specified in https://github.com/Shirakumo/radiance-core/blob/master/standard-interfaces.lisp#L102 then you're golden.
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2015-03-26T10:34:36Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: there's this problem I have with rewriting anything I see or know it there. It may be good but it degrades my productivity exponentially the further I go until it reaches complex values. What's surprising is that you reached the point I wanted to reach but going different path. I was studing you codes and I came to conclusion that I might just throw away all the hacks I have and start doing actual
2015-03-26T10:34:38Z hitecnologys: work instead of rewriting the whole stack by using and improving some else's products. Is this good or bad? I'm confused, really.
2015-03-26T10:35:01Z hitecnologys: (Ah, I hate the limit of characters per message)
2015-03-26T10:35:23Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Well. Uh. I hardly ever worked on anyone else's projects, so I can't tell you!
2015-03-26T10:35:43Z Shinmera: I'd be happy to hear that Radiance is being put to use though and I'd be glad to improve it with feedback.
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2015-03-26T10:36:33Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: well, I wasn't actually expecting someone to help me figure out. That was mostly rethorical question.
2015-03-26T10:36:38Z Shinmera: The good part of Radiance is that, as long as you don't use driver-specific functions, you can always at any point decide to write your own that does what you want and still have your code work.
2015-03-26T10:37:30Z pjb: -
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2015-03-26T10:38:43Z hitecnologys: Eh... I should probably get back to work. Thank you for consultation.
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2015-03-26T10:41:15Z Shinmera: dsp_: Alternatively though you can drop the server interface altogether by stubbing it, and manually call RADIANCE:REQUEST yourself.
2015-03-26T10:41:39Z Shinmera: dsp_: So you could also have something that calls into lisp from outside like CGI, I guess. I haven't explored that possibility myself, so I can't tell you anything more certain.
2015-03-26T10:43:36Z dsp_: yeah no worries, just i was looking at it briefly for an overview. i am sure i could figure it out if i invested time to actually RTFC ;) thanks
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2015-03-26T11:37:41Z myrkraverk: In SBCL, is there a way to get a length, *after* doing sb-sys:vector-sap ?  Or do I need to do it first?
2015-03-26T11:38:37Z myrkraverk: As in, when I (sb-sys:vector-sap (coerce (format nil "~A~%" foo) 'simple-base-string))
2015-03-26T11:41:15Z myrkraverk: Yeah, taking the length of the resulting string from format works; for sb-posix:write.
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2015-03-26T11:47:38Z dim: why are you using sbcl specific APIs here?
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2015-03-26T12:01:46Z myrkraverk: dim, as in, asking in #lisp, or in this particular code?
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2015-03-26T12:02:14Z dim: I mean as opposed to commonly used trivial-* libs that are portable
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2015-03-26T12:02:53Z myrkraverk: Oh, well; I'm doing a pid/lock file.  And I guess I'm just used to the posix interface for it.
2015-03-26T12:03:06Z dim: ok
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2015-03-26T13:11:17Z Cymew: http://paste.lisp.org/+351M
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2015-03-26T13:11:34Z Cymew: Anyone care to tell me the bleeding obvious reason a is not updated?
2015-03-26T13:11:52Z Cymew: I know it's a doh moment in there somewhere...
2015-03-26T13:12:03Z Quadrescence: Cymew, you don't need SETF in there
2015-03-26T13:13:14Z Cymew: Hmm. Really? But surely all variables should act the same then, should they not?
2015-03-26T13:13:47Z Quadrescence: a DO/DO* clause has the form  (VAR INIT NEXT-VALUE)
2015-03-26T13:13:57Z Quadrescence: you just provide the next value, like (+ m 1)
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2015-03-26T13:14:42Z dlowe: (1+ m)
2015-03-26T13:14:49Z Quadrescence: dlowe, w/e doesn't matter
2015-03-26T13:14:58Z Quadrescence: dlowe, also looks nicer when all the other operations are binary
2015-03-26T13:15:11Z Quadrescence: Cymew, do you really want A to equal 0 all the time? You write (- M2 M2)
2015-03-26T13:15:31Z Cymew: I never remember if it's 1+ or +1 so I use the long form...
2015-03-26T13:16:00Z Cymew: Quadrescence: Nope, that's the deal I do not want A eq 0 all the time.
2015-03-26T13:16:23Z Quadrescence: Then perhaps you want (- M2 N2) :)
2015-03-26T13:16:47Z Cymew: There was the doh! moment
2015-03-26T13:16:54Z Quadrescence: Cymew, you say M2 = (* M M), and M is initialized to 1, yet M2 is initialized to 0. Do you actually want it to be initialized to 1?
2015-03-26T13:16:55Z Cymew: Thanks Quadrescence!
2015-03-26T13:17:38Z Quadrescence: (likewise with A, B, and C)
2015-03-26T13:18:13Z Cymew: Does that make a difference?
2015-03-26T13:18:38Z Cymew: I have not thought that far yet, since A was acting so "strange"
2015-03-26T13:19:19Z Quadrescence: Cymew, If M2 is supposed to always equal (* M M), I recommend you put (* M M) as the initialization as well
2015-03-26T13:19:25Z Quadrescence: likewise for N2, A, B, and C.
2015-03-26T13:19:51Z Quadrescence: i.e., (m2 (* m m) (* m m))
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2015-03-26T13:20:02Z Quadrescence: or (b (* 2 m n) (* 2 m n))
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2015-03-26T13:22:15Z Cymew: At least I can see the difference between M and N now. Jeebus.
2015-03-26T13:23:04Z dlowe: this is why we like long variable names in lisp land
2015-03-26T13:24:03Z Quadrescence: dlowe, this code looks like abstract number theoretic code
2015-03-26T13:24:11Z Quadrescence: i don't think long variable names would be appropriate ;)
2015-03-26T13:24:15Z Cymew: Yeah, when I'm not doing math I do that.
2015-03-26T13:24:23Z dlowe: there's still easier names to pick apart than m and n
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2015-03-26T13:24:48Z Cymew: It's far easier to program a webserver than number theory, at least when I'm involved.
2015-03-26T13:25:38Z Quadrescence: dlowe, ℳ abd 𝔑 ? :)
2015-03-26T13:25:51Z dlowe: perfect!
2015-03-26T13:25:52Z Quadrescence: and*
2015-03-26T13:27:01Z Quadrescence: Alright, time for bed. Adios.
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2015-03-26T13:56:36Z Posterdati: hi
2015-03-26T13:57:53Z Posterdati: please, I've got a problem with cl-who and section tag... (:section :id 0)  is badly converted in html5: <section0> ... </section>
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2015-03-26T14:05:17Z flip214: Posterdati: (:section :id "0")
2015-03-26T14:06:49Z Posterdati: whatever: it becames <section0>....</section>
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2015-03-26T14:08:44Z Posterdati: flip214: ok I tried (:section :id "0") I did something wrong elsewhere
2015-03-26T14:09:56Z mood: Even with the 0 as a number it works for me
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2015-03-26T14:14:45Z Posterdati: flip214: thanks
2015-03-26T14:14:50Z Posterdati: flip214: solved!
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2015-03-26T14:23:49Z oleo: hello :)
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2015-03-26T14:32:56Z mvdwege: trying to compile clsql-postgresql on sbcl 1.2.4 bombs with "Component CLSQL-UFFI-SYSTEM::UFFI does not match version 2.0". Google gives no useful answers. What do I need to fix this?
2015-03-26T14:34:55Z bobbysmith007: mvdwege: try using the clsql-postgresql-socket3 backend
2015-03-26T14:35:13Z bobbysmith007: unless you REALLY need the c bridge you will be much happier
2015-03-26T14:35:36Z mvdwege: bobbysmith007: ah, ok. Will do that. Is the same solution applicable for clsql-mysl?
2015-03-26T14:35:45Z bobbysmith007: mvdwege: nope :)
2015-03-26T14:36:06Z bobbysmith007: mvdwege: you might get lucky and have it work by loading clsql-cffi before loading anything else
2015-03-26T14:36:12Z mvdwege: bobbysmith007: aaarrgh. I need to connect to both. Postgres was the most important, so I asked that one first.
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2015-03-26T14:36:38Z bobbysmith007: clsql-cffi uses the newer FFI lib, tends to be faster and has less bugs
2015-03-26T14:37:33Z mvdwege: bobbysmith007: I suspected something like that; especially when I saw the conditional :depends-on
2015-03-26T14:37:44Z mvdwege: bobbysmith007: and yep, loading clsql-cffi first works. thx!
2015-03-26T14:38:43Z bobbysmith007: mvdwege: huzzah... I will have to look at what uffi is doing, though I (have long) suspect that the appropriate action is to drop uffi for cffi altogether
2015-03-26T14:39:18Z mvdwege: bobbysmith007: From what I've seen you'd be right.
2015-03-26T14:41:42Z bobbysmith007: mvdwege: part of the problem is that uffi's only existance (to the best of my knowledge) is in support of clsql and the maintainer of both was at one point in history reticent to move over.  That was years ago now though, and the world is a much different place thanks to quicklisp (Thanks Xach!) and a few other modernizations.  Now I suspect the problem is more no one taking the time to actually raise the issue and do the work.  Espe
2015-03-26T14:42:50Z mvdwege: bobbysmith007: Yeah, I tried to raise the issue, but the mailing list won't let me subscribe.
2015-03-26T14:43:47Z bobbysmith007: *sigh* thats another problem in itself I guess.  What was the error and I will bring it to Kevins attention
2015-03-26T14:43:56Z bobbysmith007: (the error subing to the list)
2015-03-26T14:44:27Z mvdwege: bobbysmith007: No error at all, just no confirmation mail at all. I saw Kevin's mail, and I just forgot to mail him, and then today I just straight went to IRC.
2015-03-26T14:44:41Z bobbysmith007: ahh
2015-03-26T14:44:43Z mvdwege: bobbysmith007: I'll drop him a mail sometime this afternoon.
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2015-03-26T14:46:27Z bobbysmith007: mvdwege: for what its worth, I have been running clsql-cffi successfully for many years.  Also while the mysql backend is improving, historically speaking it is one of the less well tested / well used backends.  Plenty of people have been improving it though, so I believe it should do most of what you need without too much trouble.
2015-03-26T14:47:12Z mvdwege: bobbysmith007: Mysql is not a big thing in production here, so I'm not going to stress it like I will the Pg backend, so that's fine ;)
2015-03-26T14:49:20Z Shinmera: Is there a specific reason you want to use CLSQL as opposed to, say, Postmodern?
2015-03-26T14:49:20Z bobbysmith007: mvdwege: you probably still want to use the postgres-socket3 backend for postgres.  It uses cl-postgres / postmodern and has support for things like command objects / parameterized queries that the others are lacking.  It also tends to do a bit better with correctly typing the results for you
2015-03-26T14:49:52Z bobbysmith007: Shinmera: well if you are trying to talk to two different types of databases at once, then clsql has that benefit
2015-03-26T14:50:23Z Shinmera: I just never had an easy time with clsql, so I can't personally recommend using it.
2015-03-26T14:50:30Z Shinmera: But yeah, it has that potential benefit.
2015-03-26T14:50:30Z bobbysmith007: theres also some differences in the ORM / query layer that might suggest some preference toward one or the other
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2015-03-26T14:51:38Z mvdwege: Shinmera: if I had to deal with pg alone, sure. I like postmodern better. but while I don't have to connect to both at the same time, I do use Pg and MySQL.
2015-03-26T14:51:53Z bobbysmith007: Shinmera: if you wanted just postgres, I would definitely suggest that postmodern is probably a better starting place.  Unfortunately I have one app talking to 3-4 different databases and clsql handles that and nothing else does
2015-03-26T14:52:29Z bobbysmith007: mvdwege: also be sure to checkout clsql-helper which is my mud-ball of utilities accumulated from 8 years of clsql use
2015-03-26T14:52:42Z Shinmera: You could try your hands on using an SQL generator and then using various specific back-ends.
2015-03-26T14:52:44Z bobbysmith007: it rounds some of the rough edges
2015-03-26T14:53:07Z mvdwege: Shinmera: Oh for sure. This is Lisp after all ;
2015-03-26T14:53:27Z bobbysmith007: also cl-csv and datatable are pretty well integrated with clsql and make importing / exporting pretty reasonable
2015-03-26T14:53:29Z Shinmera is doing almost that in Radiance
2015-03-26T14:53:54Z mvdwege: bobbysmith007: <checks quicklisp> Oh cool. Installed.
2015-03-26T14:54:29Z bobbysmith007: mvdwege: also finally clsql-orm will generate your classes from existing database schemas (by default clsql is sort of setup to go classes->schema instead of schema->classes)
2015-03-26T14:56:42Z mvdwege: bobbysmith007: That's nice. Unfortunately some of my data is in queries with lots of joins and aggregates. That does not usually play well with ORMs. Best ORM I've seen to work with that was Perl's DBIx::Class, and even that used pseudoSQL to basically throw raw queries at the DB.
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2015-03-26T14:59:25Z bobbysmith007: mvdwedge: clsql-helper:db-objs is nice for that, give a class name and a query  and it makes instances of each of the rows mapping column->slots, but yeah you are giving it raw sql.  I like my ORMs as thin as possible while staying useful
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2015-03-26T15:27:44Z p_l: mvdwege: out of CL ORMs, perec I think could deal with such data pretty well, on Ruby front, Sequel and Datamapper
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2015-03-26T15:28:32Z mvdwege: p_l: thanks for the perec tip.
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2015-03-26T15:29:24Z p_l: also, postmodern is also an ORM, and take care that ORM doesn't need to map into classes in ActiveRecord pattern :)
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2015-03-26T15:43:10Z emaczen: I just installed a newer version of SBCL and if I run sbcl in the terminal it will start that newer version. However, Slime is still running the older version -- how do I tell slime of the newer version?
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2015-03-26T15:46:45Z emaczen: the differences between install paths are: /usr/bin and /usr/local/bin
2015-03-26T15:49:41Z emaczen: ahh this in my init.el file
2015-03-26T15:49:51Z emaczen: thanks
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2015-03-26T16:56:47Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2015-03-26T17:18:29Z fe[nl]ix_: hej beach  :)
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2015-03-26T17:19:58Z beach: fe[nl]ix_: Are you going to ELS?
2015-03-26T17:20:12Z fe[nl]ix_: yes, just registered
2015-03-26T17:20:17Z beach: Excellent!
2015-03-26T17:20:41Z Shinmera: More people to meet, hooray.
2015-03-26T17:20:49Z fe[nl]ix_: also, it's payed by the corp
2015-03-26T17:20:50Z fe[nl]ix_: yay
2015-03-26T17:21:03Z beach: Wow!  Impressive.  Travel too?
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2015-03-26T17:28:07Z fe[nl]ix_: beach: yes
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2015-03-26T17:28:26Z fe[nl]ix_: the excuse is that I'll meet other colleagues, etc...
2015-03-26T17:28:37Z fe[nl]ix_: i.e. Martin Cracauer is talking
2015-03-26T17:28:45Z beach: I wouldn't call that "excuse".  It a fact.
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2015-03-26T17:28:56Z beach: It IS a fact.
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2015-03-26T17:30:36Z beach: He is a keynote speaker right?
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2015-03-26T17:32:50Z beach: I'll answer that myself: Yes he is!
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2015-03-26T18:32:06Z jasom: 'tis a sad day; I'm updating a python program that was originally written in lisp.
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2015-03-26T18:33:10Z dlowe: reddit?
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2015-03-26T18:33:39Z jasom: dlowe: no.  An internal tool here at work.  I wrote it initially in lisp, and my boss had me rewrite it "in a language someone else at the company knows"
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2015-03-26T18:34:07Z dlowe: if you could have gotten one more person to learn CL, it would technically have fulfilled the boss's command
2015-03-26T18:34:13Z jasom: heh
2015-03-26T18:34:16Z dlowe: too bad
2015-03-26T18:34:31Z jasom: well he prototypes his stuff in haskell, and then ports to python, so at least he knows what I'm going through
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2015-03-26T18:35:35Z jasom: we had a Factor guy in our group at one point, so I guess all the people who like unpopular languages end up here
2015-03-26T18:36:13Z mood: ...and then rewrite their stuff in Python?
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2015-03-26T18:36:35Z jasom: mood: yup
2015-03-26T18:36:41Z jasom: or perl
2015-03-26T18:36:47Z jasom: or C
2015-03-26T18:37:12Z dlowe: you could use ecl to transpile to C :D
2015-03-26T18:37:43Z mood: Is the C ECL produces remotely readable?
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2015-03-26T18:38:05Z jackdaniel: mood: yes, but lisp objects or of one type cl_object
2015-03-26T18:38:24Z jasom imagines that conversation "Well it's machine generated C code that communicates in tcl over a socket to a wish interpreter that renders the gui"
2015-03-26T18:38:32Z jackdaniel: and it's not that pretty (it's generated code after all)
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2015-03-26T18:56:41Z pjb: jasom: you have a moral obligation not to.
2015-03-26T18:57:26Z pjb: jasom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_ethics
2015-03-26T18:58:22Z dlowe: so serious :p
2015-03-26T18:59:16Z pjb: You may also write a lisp program to read the python code and convert it back to lisp.  But since we don't work 4 hours a week, we don't have the time to do this kind of meta job, IME.
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2015-03-26T19:20:05Z jasom: pjb: I'm pretty sure everyone was joking about it
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2015-03-26T19:32:14Z dim: jasom: what about teaching lisp to someone in the company then?
2015-03-26T19:32:35Z dim: like said dlowe and I missed, but still, really
2015-03-26T19:34:35Z dlowe: That's a hard sell.
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2015-03-26T19:35:29Z dlowe: "Please learn this whole not-very-popular computer language so you can maintain my code."
2015-03-26T19:35:59Z Xach beats the averages
2015-03-26T19:36:02Z Shinmera: One would word it a bit more pleasantly than that, I would hope.
2015-03-26T19:36:02Z pjb: dlowe: this is bullshit.
2015-03-26T19:36:06Z Xach: ...with a club
2015-03-26T19:36:29Z pjb: dlowe: they write programs in stranger programming languages, and expect you to maintain them all the time!
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2015-03-26T19:43:19Z jackdaniel: when i was evangelising cl in company it didn't actually work out
2015-03-26T19:44:28Z dim: I just tell people that it's better than python at being dynamic and "full batteries inside" and it supports threads for real and then you have a fast binary to use
2015-03-26T19:44:29Z jackdaniel: funny joke about ELS I encountered - somebody asked - "You'll meet all the rest 3 lispers there?"
2015-03-26T19:44:32Z jackdaniel: :)
2015-03-26T19:44:54Z dim: then when possible just show them how you work with SLIME and C-M-x to recompile on the fly in the running program then test again
2015-03-26T19:45:03Z dim: it's quite magic the lisp development experience
2015-03-26T19:45:09Z dim: debug a mistake while they watch
2015-03-26T19:45:28Z dim: mainly when I'm asked about why cl, I talk about the developer experience
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2015-03-26T19:46:20Z jasom: I was once in a room with 3 professional APL developers
2015-03-26T19:46:24Z mood: I actually have no idea how many people to expect at ELS
2015-03-26T19:46:40Z Xach: mood: the last one had around 50 or 60, i think
2015-03-26T19:47:27Z dim: I won't be there unfortunately
2015-03-26T19:47:33Z mood: Xach: thanks
2015-03-26T19:48:05Z dim: well unfortunately for me, of course
2015-03-26T19:48:37Z dim: anyway, I didn't have as much choice as I would have wanted when organizing pgday.paris and there's a schedule conflict
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2015-03-26T19:51:32Z Xach: dim!
2015-03-26T19:51:50Z Xach: postgres was written in lisp! this is like a pg event!
2015-03-26T19:53:22Z dim: hehe
2015-03-26T19:53:31Z dim: only the query optimizer actually
2015-03-26T19:53:45Z dim: and we still have lisp like data structure and constructs in the C code, of sorts
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2015-03-26T19:57:43Z dim: http://git.postgresql.org/gitweb/?p=postgresql.git;a=blob;f=src/include/nodes/pg_list.h;h=a17500082b1ae2bd69f7661a65fed57bbf21e142;hb=HEAD
2015-03-26T19:58:36Z dim: cons/append/member/first/union/difference/
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2015-03-26T20:01:53Z dim: that's the only "lispy" thing you'll spot in PostgreSQL sources nowadays, as far as I can tell
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2015-03-26T20:04:32Z rem_: what does setf do ?
2015-03-26T20:04:48Z Bicyclidine: modify things
2015-03-26T20:05:03Z rem_: what makes it spcial ?
2015-03-26T20:05:26Z Shinmera: Special compared to what
2015-03-26T20:05:27Z rem_: whay dont use setq
2015-03-26T20:05:54Z rem_: im confused when modfying variables
2015-03-26T20:06:13Z rem_: i know global and local
2015-03-26T20:06:26Z rem_: but when modfing  a local one
2015-03-26T20:06:35Z rem_: why i should use setf
2015-03-26T20:06:46Z rem_: and what is its scope
2015-03-26T20:08:08Z jasom: rem_: setf is a generic setter
2015-03-26T20:08:22Z jasom: rem_: for setting a variable, setf and setq are synonymous
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2015-03-26T20:09:06Z rem_: aha
2015-03-26T20:09:06Z jasom: rem_: you can e.g. do (setf (car x) 3).  You can't do that with setq
2015-03-26T20:09:16Z Shinmera: Try macroexpand on something like '(setf foo 0).
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2015-03-26T20:09:46Z Bicyclidine: rem_: if it helps, (setf foo bar) is exactly the same as (setq foo bar) when foo is just a symbol.
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2015-03-26T20:09:58Z jasom: clhs 5.1
2015-03-26T20:09:58Z specbot: Generalized Reference: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_a.htm
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2015-03-26T20:10:10Z jasom: ^^^ that has more info than you probably want right now rem_ but does talk about setf
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2015-03-26T20:10:47Z rem_: it confused me more
2015-03-26T20:10:51Z jasom: but the advantage of setf is you only need to remember the syntax for reading a place, and then you also know how to write a place
2015-03-26T20:11:06Z rem_: i get the setq but set f i didnt get it from that site
2015-03-26T20:11:10Z dim: (setf (gethash key hash-table) value) ; made it for me
2015-03-26T20:11:21Z dim: rem_: basically, setq is a very limited form of setf
2015-03-26T20:11:26Z dim: just use setf and stop wondering
2015-03-26T20:11:40Z rem_: :D
2015-03-26T20:12:12Z spockokt: what if... we were all setf incorrectly in life ?
2015-03-26T20:12:16Z spockokt: dim: that is what i wonder
2015-03-26T20:12:48Z spockokt: like... what if we were to be defparameter or defvar'd instead?
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2015-03-26T20:13:09Z spockokt: what if... the world we know it is just a closure in a larger scoping block?
2015-03-26T20:13:41Z dim: review your classics, old philosophers have plenty of answers to that
2015-03-26T20:13:45Z rem_: hhhhhhhhhh ull remain local in all ur life
2015-03-26T20:13:55Z rem_: just stop wondering :D
2015-03-26T20:13:58Z rem_: live it
2015-03-26T20:14:37Z spockokt: dim: answers or more questions?
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2015-03-26T20:14:49Z dim: usually they spell it that the whole universe we now lies in a grain of dirt stuck in the nail of a God, and the life of the universe is a blink of his eyes
2015-03-26T20:15:01Z dim: we know, even
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2015-03-26T20:15:53Z dim: you can also just watch Men in Black again ;-)
2015-03-26T20:17:27Z spockokt: as a very young kid that ending made me question so many things. as if i couldnt pester my parents with enough questions they didnt have clear answers for
2015-03-26T20:17:35Z spockokt: those marbles man
2015-03-26T20:17:38Z spockokt: what even is?
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2015-03-26T20:18:35Z jasom found most of the classic philosophers to be pointless and onanistic but that's getting off topic
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2015-03-26T21:12:28Z Posterdati: flip214: hi
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2015-03-26T21:12:43Z Posterdati: flip214: how are you?
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2015-03-26T22:12:36Z css106420_: So I've heard that Lisp provides more benefit to a programmer if he doesn't try to construct programs like he would in say, C
2015-03-26T22:12:45Z css106420_: But coming from C, that's the way I think
2015-03-26T22:12:58Z css106420_: What's the best way to force myself to think in a different paradigm
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2015-03-26T22:14:24Z Xach: css106420_: start with small projects from beginner tutorials.
2015-03-26T22:14:36Z Xach: css106420_: don't get ahead of yourself too much.
2015-03-26T22:15:19Z Xach: css106420_: work from good material - i think Practical Common Lisp and Paradigms of AI Programming cover some of CL's unique advantageous features pretty well
2015-03-26T22:15:27Z css106420_: Xach: I've been forcing myself to learn Lisp by using it for my next project which is fairly large, not trivial
2015-03-26T22:15:31Z css106420_: Xach: is this a  mistake?
2015-03-26T22:16:24Z Xach: css106420_: I dunno. It seems like you could get frustrated in that scenario. I learned it because I felt like it, and worked on projects for fun.
2015-03-26T22:16:49Z Xach: I had some trouble because I learned Scheme first and read ANSI Common Lisp, so my CL code was very schemey initially.
2015-03-26T22:16:57Z Xach: I think things even out eventually.
2015-03-26T22:17:13Z hitecnologys: css106420_: I depends on not trivial in what what. I've been learning it working on pretty large project too, but it's been going for years and it's already been rewritten in many languages, so decide for yourself whether you're ready or not.
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2015-03-26T22:17:26Z css106420_: Xach: I'm just the type of learner that needs a project in order to really learn something
2015-03-26T22:17:32Z hitecnologys: s/what what/what way/
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2015-03-26T22:17:58Z css106420_: Xach: but I have a large amount of experience in other languages so I may not get *as* frustrated as I would if I was attempting to build something in Lisp coming from no experience
2015-03-26T22:18:45Z Xach: css106420_: It could be fun to just dig in, and solicit feedback as you go from people with experience.
2015-03-26T22:19:08Z Xach: css106420_: CL has a lot of stuff, so one of the easiest kinds of feedback to provide is "That thing you wrote could be shorter using this built-in thing"
2015-03-26T22:19:26Z css106420_: Xacg: Right, that's probably where I'll have the most trouble, ignorance in regards to libraries
2015-03-26T22:19:31Z Xach: Harder to provide: "the overarching design needs to be reworked like so"
2015-03-26T22:20:25Z Xach: good luck with it!
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2015-03-26T22:20:43Z dim: css106420_: the CL standard already is quite a big lib in my experience
2015-03-26T22:21:03Z dim: I think I'm about 3 years into it now and I still discover things as I go
2015-03-26T22:21:12Z Xach: same here after 14 years
2015-03-26T22:21:29Z Xach: i don't know how people keep up with something that is also constantly changing, like emacs...
2015-03-26T22:21:38Z dim: sounds like emacs
2015-03-26T22:21:47Z dim: well yeah emacs is "worse" on that angle ok
2015-03-26T22:21:53Z css106420_: I actually like the idea of the standard being large
2015-03-26T22:22:02Z css106420_: No end of things to discover
2015-03-26T22:22:22Z dim: so many ways to do things, too
2015-03-26T22:22:44Z css106420_: Like Perl in that regard?
2015-03-26T22:23:40Z Xach: to a degree
2015-03-26T22:23:40Z dim: I recently was quite surprised as being able to use reduce to simplify expressions ;-)
2015-03-26T22:24:32Z hitecnologys: dim: simplify?
2015-03-26T22:24:54Z dim: parse "a || b || c" into (|| a b c)
2015-03-26T22:25:17Z hitecnologys: Ah.
2015-03-26T22:25:33Z hitecnologys: I thought I really missed something.
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2015-03-26T22:27:21Z css106420_: I was quite surprised yesterday when I did a search for Lisp IDE's
2015-03-26T22:27:31Z css106420_: Seem like all of the ones that aren't Emacs cost a lot of money
2015-03-26T22:27:36Z css106420_: *Seems
2015-03-26T22:27:38Z css106420_ is now known as Slothel
2015-03-26T22:28:30Z Xach: Clozure CL has a mac IDE.
2015-03-26T22:28:42Z Xach: I am too used to Emacs to give it a ton of time, though.
2015-03-26T22:29:10Z Slothel: Excuse my ignorance but does Emacs have a debugger or real-time syntax checking?
2015-03-26T22:29:10Z Xach: I like the lispworks ide, but even when I worked where there was an Enterprise site license, i mostly used it to start slime and connect via emacs.
2015-03-26T22:29:18Z hitecnologys: Slothel: right. There were many people who tried solving this problem but I haven't heard of any great successes so Emacs is the only full-featured open source IDE at the moment, as far as I know,
2015-03-26T22:29:31Z dim: I tried CCL editor to see if I could answer friends wanting to try lisp without having to learn Emacs
2015-03-26T22:29:36Z Xach: Slothel: it has a debugger. syntax checking is done on demand after trying to compile.
2015-03-26T22:29:37Z hitecnologys: Slothel: there's SLIME that does.
2015-03-26T22:29:38Z dim: I told them they had to learn Emacs
2015-03-26T22:29:47Z Xach: the CCL IDE is an emacs variant.
2015-03-26T22:30:06Z Xach: (based on hemlock)
2015-03-26T22:30:07Z Slothel: I don't have a problem learning Emacs but it seems like quite the task if I'm learning Lisp simultaneously
2015-03-26T22:30:09Z dim: yeah but the one window per file and lack of interactive things killed me
2015-03-26T22:30:13Z dim: no C-M-x etc
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2015-03-26T22:30:28Z Slothel: Which brings me to my next question, are there any standards as far as indentation/comments/etc. in Lisp
2015-03-26T22:30:41Z Xach: dim: i think it has many of the things i like in emacs/slime but under different keys and names
2015-03-26T22:30:46Z Slothel: The tutorial I'm going through hasn't mentioned anything about that
2015-03-26T22:30:47Z Xach: Slothel: yes.
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2015-03-26T22:31:08Z hitecnologys: There was this style recommendations PDF which I lost somewhere.
2015-03-26T22:31:33Z Slothel: Xach: Is there a document you could refer me to? Lisp seems like it could potentially become quite unwieldy with parentheses flying around everywhere
2015-03-26T22:31:35Z dim: Xach: it might be that the window arrangements was too much for me to actually dive in enough, thanks for the tip, might as well advice CCL to some friends and wait to see how they like it ;-)
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2015-03-26T22:31:53Z pjb: There's also MCLIDE which is not Clozure CL, but which is compiled with Clozure CL.
2015-03-26T22:32:04Z Slothel: dim: Did you find it difficult to remember all of the Emacs commands? It just seems like there are so many hotkeys I can't keep track of them
2015-03-26T22:32:17Z dim: Slothel: there's on average less parens in lisp than ()+[]+{}+; in C or Java really
2015-03-26T22:32:37Z dim: Slothel: can't remember, I've been using Emacs for 15 years now
2015-03-26T22:32:53Z dim: pjb: is MCLIDE multi platforms?
2015-03-26T22:33:04Z Slothel: dim: I'm just wondering if learning Emacs and Lisp at the same time is a good idea or a really bad one
2015-03-26T22:33:11Z pjb: dim: no.
2015-03-26T22:33:17Z clop: two bad ideas ?? :)
2015-03-26T22:33:24Z dim: Slothel: just run through the Emacs tutorial
2015-03-26T22:33:25Z hitecnologys: Slothel: it's definitely not bad idea.
2015-03-26T22:33:38Z dim: then have a look at how to use Slime, maybe they have a tutorial too
2015-03-26T22:33:45Z dim: and you're all set, enough to start
2015-03-26T22:33:47Z Slothel: dim: I settled on Lisp because it seemed like (for the project I'm working on) I'd have to bend over backwards to accomplish the same feats in C
2015-03-26T22:34:06Z dim: it looks to me that way for every projects now that I'm used to CL ;-)
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2015-03-26T22:34:57Z Slothel: Well I guess as soon as I can figure out why wireless isn't working in my arch linux install I'll get emacs and give it a shot
2015-03-26T22:35:08Z Slothel: Though honestly I wish like Eclipse had a lisp plugin or somethng
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2015-03-26T22:36:40Z dim: wait until you're played with SLIME, you won't care about Eclipse a dime
2015-03-26T22:37:05Z dim: well that's what it did to me, but to be honnest I already didn't care much about Eclipse at the time...
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2015-03-26T22:37:42Z Slothel: dim: It isn't that I have warm fuzzies for Eclipse, but it's what I'm used to using.
2015-03-26T22:37:52Z Slothel: It was actually *required* by one particular pedantic professor I had
2015-03-26T22:37:58Z Slothel: and ever since then I haven't bothered to switch
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2015-03-26T22:38:27Z dim: gotcha
2015-03-26T22:39:13Z dim: well begin with the Emacs tutorial (C-h t) and try to remember that you will enjoy that strange things in time, with SLIME connected to your running CL instance where you can edit the code live
2015-03-26T22:39:48Z hitecnologys: Slothel: I've used Eclipse for a long time for Python development and I can assure you SLIME and Emacs feel much more comfortable to work with.
2015-03-26T22:41:18Z Slothel: hitecnologys: Gotcha. I've got just one more question
2015-03-26T22:41:34Z Slothel: hitecnologys: Have you any experience with Huchentoot? I want to run it behind Apache
2015-03-26T22:41:46Z hitecnologys: Slothel: why would you want Apache?
2015-03-26T22:41:51Z Slothel: hitecnologys: If so, does Huchentoot scale well to 100's, possibly 1000's of users?
2015-03-26T22:41:56Z Slothel: hitecnologys: For the front-end
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2015-03-26T22:42:17Z hitecnologys: Slothel: I do have experience running Hunchentoot beind both Apache and Nginx. It works just fine.
2015-03-26T22:42:25Z Xach: I ran hunchentoot for a pretty active site. I used apache initially and then used nginx. It handled thousands of users.
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2015-03-26T22:43:48Z hitecnologys: Slothel: you might want to plan you application to be able to freely switch server, though. Hunchentoot has limits as it's not asynchronous.
2015-03-26T22:44:52Z hitecnologys: Slothel: there's also mod_lisp for Apache but I hasn't had a change to try it out yet.
2015-03-26T22:48:08Z dim: I did pgcharts with hunchentoot, and some other little projects, never had to scale to more than me for those things ;-)
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2015-03-26T22:48:53Z dim: Slothel: I like using an hacked-up version of simple-routes with hunchentoot (for the URL dispatch), have a look at https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts/tree/master/lib
2015-03-26T22:49:17Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts/commits/master/lib/simple-routes.lisp even if you want to see the edits I made to the original
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2015-03-26T22:57:25Z Slothel: dim: Thank you! Perfect.
2015-03-26T22:57:58Z dim: there are other routing projects around, this is simply the one I prefered...
2015-03-26T22:58:20Z Slothel: dim: It looks good. I'll probably have more to say when I actually use it
2015-03-26T22:58:21Z dim: you can see usage at https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts/blob/master/src/server.lisp
2015-03-26T22:58:36Z hitecnologys: There's RESTAS. It's also worth a look.
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2015-03-26T23:01:55Z pillton: Is there a way to make the slime repl handle #\return characters like a terminal does? i.e. not print ^M.
2015-03-26T23:02:37Z dim: well slime knows when your expression is complete'
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2015-03-26T23:02:55Z dim: I tend to use C-j there so that I have proper indentation at the prompt
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2015-03-26T23:03:13Z dim: just hit return when done is what I got used to do...
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2015-03-26T23:03:37Z dim: there's also C-RET to end the expression with closing parens and send it
2015-03-26T23:03:59Z dim: maybe C-RET is what you want here
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2015-03-27T00:08:05Z Slothel: Well. I might have a chance to be promoted to T3
2015-03-27T00:08:08Z Slothel: this is exciting
2015-03-27T00:08:20Z Slothel: I realize this is not really on topic but, I jsut found out and Im extremely happy
2015-03-27T00:11:09Z clintm: congrats, Slothel.  No idea what T3 is, so I'm just going to assume you've been upgraded to "Terminator 3" via Skynet.
2015-03-27T00:11:23Z Slothel: clintm: I wish. T3 meaning Tier 3
2015-03-27T00:11:32Z Slothel: It's just tech support but it's a great job while I'm going through school
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2015-03-27T00:18:31Z Slothel: has anyone seen this: http://alarm.cti.depaul.edu/lisptutor/
2015-03-27T00:18:35Z clintm: That's awesome.  My first tech job was doing phone support for netscape navigator.  Man, that seems like a thousand years ago.
2015-03-27T00:18:53Z Slothel: clintm: Heh, yeah I mean I don't want to be doing this forever. I'm in school for CS/EE
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2015-03-27T00:19:08Z Slothel: clintm: But right now it's an amazing job as I don't have supervisors, I work a night shift with only 2 other people
2015-03-27T00:19:51Z clintm: I was escorted from the building by security for dumping the call queue by hanging up on people.  I've mellowed considerably since the mid-90s.
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2015-03-27T00:20:40Z clintm: if the queue was green though, we could play... I think it was quake we were all playing.  Anyway... yea, not incredibly proud of that one.
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2015-03-27T00:23:34Z Slothel: clintm: My first job was in a call center and
2015-03-27T00:23:38Z Slothel: clintm: I did nearly the same thing
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2015-03-27T00:26:46Z clintm: I'm still in contact with almost everyone I went through training with, which seems really weird.
2015-03-27T00:27:00Z clintm: ok, enough of memory lane.
2015-03-27T00:37:48Z Slothel: chaha
2015-03-27T00:37:57Z Slothel: I was jsut on a call that's why I didn't respond
2015-03-27T00:38:01Z Slothel: However, onward with my story
2015-03-27T00:38:18Z Slothel: So I was working for a law firm/call center and my managers quickly discovered that I was "good with computers"
2015-03-27T00:38:41Z Slothel: I eventually started managing their database for them (MySQL) because they didn't know how and they didn't want to always be at the mercy of IT
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2015-03-27T00:38:54Z Slothel: Well, the IT department had an opening that my managers told me I should apply for
2015-03-27T00:39:07Z Slothel: They basically praised me telling me I was a "shoe-in" and they'd recommend me
2015-03-27T00:39:20Z Slothel: Well after applying I never got an interview, and the IT director hired some kid from his chuch
2015-03-27T00:39:23Z Slothel: *church
2015-03-27T00:39:37Z Slothel: The managers never spoke with the Director about me or offered any recommendation
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2015-03-27T00:39:52Z Slothel: So I quickly became demoralized and after working there for 2 years I just stopped taking calls
2015-03-27T00:39:59Z Slothel: Took them about a week to figure it out but yeah I was canned
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2015-03-27T00:43:59Z Xach: This is a channel for discussing Common Lisp
2015-03-27T00:44:09Z Xach: Please use private messages for other stuff
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2015-03-27T00:58:08Z Slothel: Xach: I was just responding to someone who was talkking to me
2015-03-27T00:58:46Z Slothel: xach: but udnerstood
2015-03-27T00:58:48Z Slothel: *understood
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2015-03-27T01:06:44Z Slothel: So, in regards to my previous question, does anyone have any documentation they'd recommend on coding conventions in lisp
2015-03-27T01:06:48Z Slothel: Indentation/etc.
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2015-03-27T01:07:16Z White_Flame: use emacs, hit tab a lot
2015-03-27T01:07:33Z TeMPOraL: https://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/lispguide.xml, http://norvig.com/luv-slides.ps
2015-03-27T01:07:45Z TeMPOraL: and look at some source code
2015-03-27T01:07:58Z TeMPOraL: and yes, what White_Flame says :)
2015-03-27T01:08:12Z Bicyclidine: clhs 2.4.4.2
2015-03-27T01:08:12Z specbot: Notes about Style for Semicolon: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ddb.htm
2015-03-27T01:08:19Z TeMPOraL: the second link I pasted (the presentation) is actually quite cool IMO
2015-03-27T01:08:22Z Bicyclidine: for a minor part of style that is in the standard for some reason
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2015-03-27T01:11:56Z TeMPOraL: anyone has some experience with cl-launch?
2015-03-27T01:12:18Z TeMPOraL: I got it to work, but it has some weird quirks
2015-03-27T01:12:41Z TeMPOraL: especially the first example script from the documentation fails with SBCL saying somethinga about standard-input failing through an etypecase somewhere
2015-03-27T01:14:54Z TeMPOraL: or including -Q (use quicklisp) seems to silence output from scripts that don't use an entry point function...
2015-03-27T01:15:54Z Xach wonders how -Q works
2015-03-27T01:16:36Z TeMPOraL: Xach: funnily, when I do $ cl -Q '(print "hello")' from the console, it works fine
2015-03-27T01:16:59Z TeMPOraL: but try putting it in a file - #!/usr/bin/cl -Q [newline] (print "hello")
2015-03-27T01:17:01Z TeMPOraL: and suddenly no output :
2015-03-27T01:17:04Z TeMPOraL: :D
2015-03-27T01:17:51Z SAL9000: Is there a Common Lisp library for creating and manipulating EPUB files?
2015-03-27T01:18:38Z Xach: SAL9000: I don't remember seeing anything like that.
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2015-03-27T01:32:52Z Xach: so many new projects this month!
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2015-03-27T01:41:53Z Adlai: =bu23
2015-03-27T01:42:03Z Adlai: oops
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2015-03-27T02:06:35Z SAL9000: does the defgeneric lambda-list support default arguments?
2015-03-27T02:07:20Z SAL9000: for some reason, (defgeneric foo (bar &key (baz :bam))) fails with "invalid ... in the generic function lambda list"
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2015-03-27T02:15:01Z Xach: SAL9000: It does not. You can add them to defmethods though.
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2015-03-27T02:30:17Z SAL9000: How does one "overload" comparisons of CLOS classes?
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2015-03-27T02:30:51Z SAL9000: e.g. (equal structA structB) should test (equal (unique-slot structA) (unique-slot structB))
2015-03-27T02:31:24Z Xach: You can't change the behavior of built-in equality functions.
2015-03-27T02:31:26Z Bicyclidine: can't. usually you just define your own predicate and use that.
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2015-03-27T02:35:10Z White_Flame: you can, and I have, by overriding the common-lisp package symbols, but who knows what sort of assumptions you'd be breaking by doing that
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2015-03-27T02:35:37Z White_Flame: basically, if it's of the type(s) you care about, do a comparison.  else, defer to the old cl:equal
2015-03-27T02:35:53Z White_Flame: again, a very dangerous thing to be mucking about with the CL symbols
2015-03-27T02:37:15Z Xach: "overriding"?
2015-03-27T02:37:23Z Xach: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html is an interesting paper on the topic
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2015-03-27T02:38:13Z White_Flame: redefining cl:equalp in my case, such that strings would be compared case-sensitively, while deferring to the old cl:equalp so that structs would also compare slot-by-slot
2015-03-27T02:39:27Z Xach: definitely an if it breaks, you get to keep both pieces situation
2015-03-27T02:39:31Z White_Flame: yep
2015-03-27T02:40:01Z White_Flame: but the most approachable way to deeply compare structures with string slot values being compared with case
2015-03-27T02:40:41Z White_Flame: the system did churn along happily without issue, but later versions removed the need to do that and cl:equalp returned to normal
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2015-03-27T03:01:52Z jasom: You can shadow equalp
2015-03-27T03:02:14Z jasom: and have it call cl:equalp on the appropriate builtin types
2015-03-27T03:03:06Z jasom: The equality tester I want, when I do want a completely generic one isn't in the standard anyway.  Like equalp only case-sensitive for characters and strings
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2015-03-27T03:08:19Z Xach: I'd be reluctant to have code that had calls to an EQUALP that wasn't CL:EQUALP unless it had lots of context making it clear.
2015-03-27T03:08:30Z Xach: I think I'd prefer it have a different name like EQUIV or something.
2015-03-27T03:09:02Z jasom: equ and equa aren't taken, nor is equal-p
2015-03-27T03:09:19Z jasom: clhs e
2015-03-27T03:09:19Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for e.
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2015-03-27T03:09:28Z jasom: e is free as well, apparently
2015-03-27T03:10:44Z pillton: The difficulty I have with abbreviations is that I remember the term, not the term's abbreviation.
2015-03-27T03:11:01Z jasom: ≈ is free as well
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2015-03-27T03:11:20Z pillton: That means approximately equal.
2015-03-27T03:11:23Z jasom: ≅ maybe?
2015-03-27T03:11:58Z jasom: or ≊
2015-03-27T03:12:23Z jasom: the first is isomorphic, the second equivalence
2015-03-27T03:13:46Z jasom: pillton: the important thing is knowing what the abbreviation means when you read it
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2015-03-27T03:18:38Z pillton: That is my argument against shadowing.
2015-03-27T03:20:36Z Bicyclidine: does SAL9000 actually want to equate things that are only possibly objects with their classes
2015-03-27T03:22:14Z jasom: Bicyclidine: I think SAL9000 was hoping to add methods to equal or equalp
2015-03-27T03:22:47Z Bicyclidine: i'm thinking they might have a more specific problem, is all
2015-03-27T03:24:27Z SAL9000: jasom, Bicyclidine: I want to add methods to equal, so that it DWIMs when comparing two objects derived from the same particular base class.
2015-03-27T03:25:16Z Xach: can't be done.
2015-03-27T03:25:44Z SAL9000: so there's nothing like the PRINT-OBJECT generic?
2015-03-27T03:25:54Z SAL9000: but for equal*
2015-03-27T03:26:02Z jasom: SAL9000: correct; you can create your own generic function though
2015-03-27T03:26:10Z jasom: someone suggested EQUIV as a good name
2015-03-27T03:26:16Z Bicyclidine: no. there's one in a cdr, but i don't know how many implementations it's in
2015-03-27T03:26:34Z jasom totally forgot about the CDRs
2015-03-27T03:26:36Z Bicyclidine: hm, i bet the ridiculous amount of options to PRINT is a good show of how a general equivalence would have to be
2015-03-27T03:27:04Z SAL9000: I was thinking DWIM-equivalence rather than general equivalence
2015-03-27T03:27:18Z SAL9000: so, only implement it for objects that it makes sense to implement for
2015-03-27T03:27:32Z SAL9000: and if you need specialized things, use the non-generic comparisons
2015-03-27T03:27:52Z pillton: The problem DWIM is that you might be alone in what you mean.
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2015-03-27T03:27:59Z Bicyclidine: print is also DWIM
2015-03-27T03:27:59Z pillton: The problem with ..
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2015-03-27T03:28:03Z Bicyclidine: and it is huge, is what i mean
2015-03-27T03:28:21Z jasom: https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/document/8/cleqcmp.html
2015-03-27T03:28:35Z SAL9000: pillton: that's what consensus is for, isn't it?
2015-03-27T03:28:44Z SAL9000: I get your point, though.
2015-03-27T03:28:49Z pillton: Not when it comes to equivalence.
2015-03-27T03:29:03Z pillton: The same goes for serialisation.
2015-03-27T03:29:19Z pillton: The same goes for printing as Bicyclidine states.
2015-03-27T03:29:50Z pillton agrees with Bicyclidine too.
2015-03-27T03:30:16Z Bicyclidine: SAL9000: so, i think it's often better to focus on your immediate problem. maybe your application works fine with sal-class-equal
2015-03-27T03:31:30Z SAL9000: Bicyclidine: It'll work fine without generic equal, yes; if there was a generic equal, though, I would like to leverage it.
2015-03-27T03:31:54Z Bicyclidine: understandable.
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2015-03-27T03:32:08Z jasom: SAL9000: I think the current consensus in #lisp is that a generic equal would be slower and less clear
2015-03-27T03:32:19Z SAL9000: OK.
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2015-03-27T03:36:07Z SAL9000: is there something like MAPCAR which only returns the first match?
2015-03-27T03:36:25Z Bicyclidine: match? mapcar doesn't match.
2015-03-27T03:36:26Z pillton: clhs find
2015-03-27T03:36:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_.htm
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2015-03-27T03:36:56Z pillton: or find-if
2015-03-27T03:37:00Z SAL9000: thanks
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2015-03-27T03:40:05Z JokesOnYou77_: Hi all
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2015-03-27T04:01:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-03-27T04:02:17Z pillton: Hey beach. Hey JokesOnYou77.
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2015-03-27T04:09:19Z JokesOnYou77: Hi beach
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2015-03-27T04:30:46Z drmeister: Hi beach.
2015-03-27T04:34:12Z drmeister: beach: I just sent you an email about a problem I think I've uncovered when HIR is generated for iterator functions.
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2015-03-27T04:35:44Z beach: drmeister: OK, I'll have a look at it.
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2015-03-27T04:39:10Z beach: I confirm that there is a problem.
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2015-03-27T04:40:28Z drmeister: I don't see an UNWIND-INSTRUCTION in the HIR.
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2015-03-27T04:45:38Z beach: drmeister: Did you do a "pull" recently?
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2015-03-27T04:46:03Z drmeister: Not in a few days.
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2015-03-27T04:46:47Z beach: Anyway, never mind.  I fixed a problem recently, but I don't think this is it.
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2015-03-27T04:47:22Z drmeister: I'm heading to bed - I'll talk to you tomorrow.
2015-03-27T04:47:26Z beach: OK.
2015-03-27T04:47:31Z drmeister: Thanks.
2015-03-27T04:49:24Z Slothel: Hey, I just read an article about Xach
2015-03-27T04:49:32Z Slothel: talking about lisp hackers
2015-03-27T04:49:34Z Slothel: pretty cool
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2015-03-27T06:36:38Z flip214: clhs #.
2015-03-27T06:36:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm
2015-03-27T06:38:33Z flip214: hmmm, wasn't there a splicing read-time evaluation too?
2015-03-27T06:40:01Z Bike: nope
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2015-03-27T07:02:18Z Kolt: Can I ask emacs related questions here?
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2015-03-27T07:03:40Z pillton: Kolt: Not really. Questions related to slime are ok.
2015-03-27T07:03:41Z SAL9000: Kolt: I'd recommend asking in #emacs
2015-03-27T07:04:08Z Kolt: thanks
2015-03-27T07:04:23Z pillton: This channel is about Common Lisp.
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2015-03-27T07:47:01Z PuercoPop: TeMPOraL: you have to place the code you want to run inside a function named main, if you want to change the entry point you use -E <function_name> I've use it with relative success but there are some quirks, (For example when trying to use wookie to serve a folder)
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2015-03-27T08:50:53Z jackdaniel: cl-launch ?
2015-03-27T08:51:58Z jackdaniel: http://ix.io/gaJ <- example
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2015-03-27T08:55:45Z PuercoPop: yeah, hunchentoot worked np, but I was left wondering why didn't wookie
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2015-03-27T10:28:54Z ayon: Hi all :)
2015-03-27T10:30:55Z ayon: How do I access the keys of a plist that is quoted like so: '(:NAME "para" :ATTRIBUTES (:STYLE "width: 100px") :CONTENT (.. same ... but NOT quoted?)
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2015-03-27T10:31:51Z ayon: For instance: (getf a-tree :name ) returns NIL
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2015-03-27T10:32:59Z H4ns: please paste a complete example directly from your repl to paste.lisp.org
2015-03-27T10:33:36Z ayon: sure, one sec. You want the code that sets it all Up, or just the output?
2015-03-27T10:34:24Z H4ns: enough of it to demonstrate the problem.  maybe you want to first experiment in the repl to see whether you can reproduce the unwanted behavior outside of your program
2015-03-27T10:34:59Z H4ns: there is no difference in accessing a plist that has been generated by a function to a plist that you've written into your source code in quoted form when it comes to GETF.
2015-03-27T10:35:18Z H4ns: quoting is just a technique that allows you to put literal data into your code.
2015-03-27T10:35:32Z ayon: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146533
2015-03-27T10:36:25Z H4ns: oh boy.
2015-03-27T10:36:27Z ayon: I don't actually quote it, it's produced by a macro...
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2015-03-27T10:37:15Z ayon: I am a lisp newbie...you could tell yes?
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2015-03-27T10:38:44Z H4ns: ayon: how do you learn lisp?  your code looks really really unusual and i have trouble following what's going on.
2015-03-27T10:39:05Z ayon: Oh, I left out $lw-debug, it's just a wrapper around (format t "~A ~S~C" arg1 arg2)
2015-03-27T10:39:09Z H4ns: ayon: there are many very basic mistakes that you could avoid by reading good books and good code, and that'd make your code easier to review.
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2015-03-27T10:40:15Z H4ns: ayon: for example, your indentation is not very regular and does not follow common style, you use a $ prefix to almost everything with no apparent reason, you try to use strings as symbols, you setf variables that you've not declared, you're using macros where functions would do etc. pp.
2015-03-27T10:40:21Z ayon: I am reading Common LISP: A gentle intro... ANSI Common LISP (Graham), Practical Common LISP (Seibel) and On Lisp
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2015-03-27T10:40:54Z ayon: Sorry, the point is to create a kind of DSL
2015-03-27T10:40:58Z H4ns: maybe choose one of them and follow it from start to end before you try to pick things from different books without having an understanding what these things are
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2015-03-27T10:41:39Z Adlai notices commas inside a string... those will not unquote
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2015-03-27T10:41:41Z H4ns: are you interested in solving a problem or are you interested in applying a solution to some problem?
2015-03-27T10:43:52Z ayon: That's a good question...
2015-03-27T10:44:32Z H4ns: try testing what you do in an incremental fashion
2015-03-27T10:44:40Z ayon: I do.
2015-03-27T10:44:45Z H4ns: i.e. use the repl to evaluate calls to your functions and macroexpansions
2015-03-27T10:44:51Z ayon: I do.
2015-03-27T10:45:03Z ayon: And it all works, except it doesn't.
2015-03-27T10:45:03Z H4ns: well, if you did, you would know that your first macro does not work at all
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2015-03-27T10:45:11Z ayon: But it does...
2015-03-27T10:45:24Z ayon: It just doesn't work the way I intended it to...
2015-03-27T10:45:26Z H4ns: then you've not shown us the code that you say works.
2015-03-27T10:45:42Z ayon: Ahh, I will paste the whole kit there, and make sure it runs in a REPL
2015-03-27T10:45:51Z H4ns: no need.
2015-03-27T10:46:12Z H4ns: just use macroexpand to look at the expansion of your $lw-define-presenter-function
2015-03-27T10:46:27Z H4ns: it does not work at all.  as it stands, it is completely bogus.
2015-03-27T10:46:59Z H4ns: then look at $lw-define-presenter-functions - what is funcs_to_declare?  is it a variable?  where do you declare it?  you don't.  fix that.
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2015-03-27T10:47:47Z H4ns: then look at the go-down local function.  why is it a local function?  the name suggests that you want to go down somewhere, but you don't
2015-03-27T10:48:25Z alpha-: I love being able to use sigils in variable names, same as in perl
2015-03-27T10:48:30Z ayon: You are correct, I had left over definition in my repl...
2015-03-27T10:48:33Z alpha-: flexibility is great
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2015-03-27T10:49:06Z ayon: Sorry, go-down is being built incrementally, it is supposed to recursively traverse the tree and output some text.
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2015-03-27T10:51:10Z ayon: I will have to go back and see why the macro doesn't work.
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2015-03-27T10:52:38Z H4ns: a macro needs to expand to exactly one form.  if you need it to expand to multiple forms, wrap them in a progn.
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2015-03-27T10:52:53Z H4ns: also learn what a symbol is.  hint: it is not a string.
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2015-03-27T10:54:13Z ayon: I understand that it is not a string, however I would like, if possible, to define a function based on inputted string...
2015-03-27T10:55:57Z H4ns: why?
2015-03-27T10:56:48Z ayon: It seemed like the optimal solution...
2015-03-27T10:57:14Z H4ns: before you can say whether a solution is optimal, you need to get an understanding of your options.
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2015-03-27T10:57:32Z dim: hey H4ns! btw the problem with the dynamic scoping the other day was (of course) a mispelling issue after having changed the binding name and not changing it properly in the let form, which is hard to track in SLIME without restarting the whole image, unfortunately
2015-03-27T10:57:55Z H4ns: dim: pew! :)
2015-03-27T10:58:22Z dim: yeah I was like "I though I knew how it worked, and there's not even threading getting in the way here, damn it" ;-)
2015-03-27T10:59:21Z dim: I guess the lesson is to always restart the image when refactoring
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2015-03-27T11:17:09Z Xach: Last night I dreamed I read some code that had (let ((foo 42 :alias baz)) ...) and I thought it was wrong, so I looked it up in the clhs and it really was valid. I was so excited to have a new example of finding new things in CL all the time.
2015-03-27T11:17:57Z dim: hehe
2015-03-27T11:18:37Z dim: but of course it was only a dream, :alias isn't valid, right?
2015-03-27T11:18:51Z dim: (just tested. you got me.)
2015-03-27T11:19:12Z Xach: My dream state synthesized a pretty convincing fragment of the spec
2015-03-27T11:19:49Z dim: that's quite elaborate dreaming here
2015-03-27T11:19:54Z ayon: How would one define a function based on an input string to a macro? I.e. how can I convert a string so that it becomes the name of the function?
2015-03-27T11:20:57Z dim: you intern it as a symbol, using intern
2015-03-27T11:20:59Z dim: clhs intern
2015-03-27T11:20:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm
2015-03-27T11:21:09Z ayon: But that produces something other than the string
2015-03-27T11:21:13Z dim: but your question sounds strange to me, care to explain the use case?
2015-03-27T11:21:51Z ayon: I want to define some arbitrary function, with a macro like (my-macro "foo") and then call the function with (foo ...)
2015-03-27T11:22:46Z Xach: ayon: the symbol-name of the symbol foo, under default settings, is "FOO"
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2015-03-27T11:25:33Z Cymew: Xach: Some would say you've spent way too much time with clhs if it shows up in your dreams!
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2015-03-27T11:43:59Z Xach: or not enough, if bogus entries are showing up
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2015-03-27T11:45:46Z ayon: How can I convert SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER to something I can use subseq with?
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2015-03-27T11:47:57Z ayon: Basically I want to get a substring from a variable that is input as a string
2015-03-27T11:49:02Z jackdaniel: ayon: doesn't subseq work with strings?
2015-03-27T11:49:43Z Xach: subseq works with strings
2015-03-27T11:50:33Z ayon: except it keeps saying var is not type of SEQUENCE when calling the macro...
2015-03-27T11:50:59Z ayon: (type-of ...) returns SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARATER as the type of var
2015-03-27T11:51:08Z jackdaniel: (subseq "asdfasdf" 1 3)
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2015-03-27T11:51:29Z Adlai: is it multidimensional?
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2015-03-27T11:51:50Z ayon: Yeah sorry, I gave the wrong info, the problem is before the subseq call, it's the macro call that wants a SEQUENCE.
2015-03-27T11:52:17Z jackdaniel: ayon: paste code somewhere (but not here)
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2015-03-27T11:52:30Z ayon: k, 1 sec
2015-03-27T11:53:55Z jackdaniel counted 1 sec already
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2015-03-27T11:53:58Z jackdaniel: dozen of times ;)
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2015-03-27T11:55:33Z ayon: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146535
2015-03-27T11:55:52Z ayon: Sorry, I wanted to test in REPL so I had to collect up some funcs
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2015-03-27T11:58:36Z Xach: ayon: $LW-DEFINE-PRESENTER-FUNCTION is a macro, so when you call it with FUNC, it gets the symbol FUNC as an argument. Not a sequence.
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2015-03-27T11:59:37Z ayon: I see...
2015-03-27T12:00:03Z Xach: ayon: READ-FROM-STRING is an odd way to do what that code is doing. it is more typical to use a s-expression template via `
2015-03-27T12:01:13Z ayon: Xach: I tried that, I would refactor the code once I can figure out how to make it do exactly what I want.
2015-03-27T12:01:36Z jackdaniel: http://ix.io/h9e - maybe try such construct?
2015-03-27T12:01:51Z Xach: ayon: If I were doing the same task, I would use macrolet instead to generate a sequence of DEFUN forms in a PROGN.
2015-03-27T12:02:01Z pjb: jackdaniel: there's an annotate button on paste.lisp.org!
2015-03-27T12:02:12Z Xach: but maybe there are more constraints not visible from that snippet
2015-03-27T12:02:12Z jackdaniel: pjb: didn't notice it, thanks
2015-03-27T12:02:17Z jackdaniel: ill remember next time
2015-03-27T12:02:39Z pjb: ayon: functions are named by symbols in lisp, not by strings.
2015-03-27T12:03:19Z ayon: I do understand that.
2015-03-27T12:03:34Z pjb: the *funcs-to-declare* should contain symbols, not strings.
2015-03-27T12:03:36Z pjb: then
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2015-03-27T12:05:39Z ayon: ($lw-define-presenter-function "foo") works
2015-03-27T12:05:57Z ayon: So why doesn't it work with "foo" is a string from a list of strings with (dolist ?
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2015-03-27T12:06:44Z Zhivago: Is it a macro?
2015-03-27T12:06:45Z Xach: ayon: because macros do not evaluate their arguments normally. they receive the source code, not the value that source code evaluates to.
2015-03-27T12:06:55Z ayon: Obviously because func is being taken literally instead of interpolated, so how can I get to evaluate the argument?
2015-03-27T12:07:27Z Zhivago: Perhaps you want something like `($lw-define-presenter-function ,foo) in another macro?
2015-03-27T12:07:29Z ayon: Zhivago: yes it's a macro
2015-03-27T12:07:51Z ayon: I'll try it.
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2015-03-27T12:08:57Z jackdaniel: ayon: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146535#1 <- have you checked my paste?
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2015-03-27T12:09:14Z jackdaniel: /annotation/
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2015-03-27T12:12:08Z ayon: jackdaniel: I am not sure what it means, it looks like what I am doin?
2015-03-27T12:12:24Z ayon: Zhivago: no joy, same issue with the wrapper macro
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2015-03-27T12:14:14Z Zhivago: Perhaps a lisppaste would help?
2015-03-27T12:14:22Z jackdaniel: ayon: try replacing your macro whith http://paste.lisp.org/display/146535#2
2015-03-27T12:14:38Z ayon: zhivago: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146535
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2015-03-27T12:17:21Z Zhivago: You need to do the dolist in the macro.
2015-03-27T12:17:43Z ayon: ahh...
2015-03-27T12:17:45Z Zhivago: Get rid of the function completely.
2015-03-27T12:17:57Z ayon: jackdaniel: your code gets rid of the problem...but nothing is defined...
2015-03-27T12:18:59Z ayon: The only issue is, it needs to be dynamic...I.e. core functions now, new functions maybe later at runtime
2015-03-27T12:19:56Z ayon: Maybe i'll just write them all out by hand...but I wanted to find a more elegant solution and just list over them
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2015-03-27T12:24:53Z jackdaniel: (defmacro presenter-function (name) `(defun ,name () (list 1 2 3)))
2015-03-27T12:25:00Z jackdaniel: this defines function put as a name
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2015-03-27T12:26:24Z jackdaniel: your may check how macro expands like (macroexpand-1 '(presenter-function mmy-fun))
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2015-03-27T12:32:36Z SAL9000: Is there a CSS parser for Common Lisp? There's https://github.com/bhyde/css-parser but it seems to be in alpha.
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2015-03-27T12:33:01Z Zhivago: ayon: You can generate source code using a do loop and then compile it using COMPILE, I guess.
2015-03-27T12:35:07Z Xach: SAL9000: https://github.com/AccelerationNet/css-selectors seems to include one, but I'm not sure if it's exposed via the API in a direct way
2015-03-27T12:35:57Z SAL9000: Xach: doesn't look like it. I'm trying to identify whether a given element in a DOM tree is, say, centered, bold, etc.
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2015-03-27T12:41:31Z SAL9000: is there a reference somewhere on how to write type declarations?
2015-03-27T12:41:35Z SAL9000: can't find anything useful on clhs
2015-03-27T12:43:33Z SAL9000: never mind, found it
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2015-03-27T12:47:01Z ayon: Zhivago, jackdaniel, Xach, H4ns, thanks for all the help :)
2015-03-27T12:47:48Z ayon: I didn't get the loop to work, so I just write them out one after another, it's more explicit anyway
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2015-03-27T12:54:14Z emaczen: Does anyone here use slime-company ?
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2015-03-27T12:58:59Z emaczen: nvm, it seems that you must type 3 characters before company does anything.
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2015-03-27T13:12:13Z SAL9000: anyone know a common lisp package for finding common substrings in two strings?
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2015-03-27T13:17:26Z pjb: SAL9000: you can use MISMATCH but you will have to write your algorithm yourself I'm afraid.
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2015-03-27T13:18:57Z pjb: ayon: the question is whether the function you want to define, will be used in your program source, or will only be called at run-time.
2015-03-27T13:19:20Z pjb: ayon: in the former case, then you shall define them with a macro: $lw-define-presenter-functions should be a macro.
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2015-03-27T13:19:43Z pjb: ayon: in the later case, then you probably do not need to "name" them, and you can just use functions to create your (anonymous) functions.
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2015-03-27T13:21:08Z pjb: ayon: if you want to name them, you can always use (compile name `(lambda (arg-attrs &rest arg-rest) (list* :name ,(string name) :attributes arg-attrs :content arg-rest)))
2015-03-27T13:21:47Z splittist: SAL9000: or cl-string-match
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2015-03-27T13:24:38Z digiorgi: I read that if i use the &rest or &body arguments in a macro i cant modify that argument, because it shields in a self rewriting code. Is it now true?
2015-03-27T13:25:06Z H4ns: digiorgi: what do you mean by "now true"?
2015-03-27T13:25:09Z Adlai: digiorgi: you could try modifying that argument, but the consequences are undefined, so your printer might catch fire
2015-03-27T13:25:24Z H4ns: digiorgi: you must not modify macro arguments because a macro might be expanded more than once.
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2015-03-27T13:26:01Z digiorgi: thanks! But why a macro is expanded more than once in the same code?
2015-03-27T13:26:16Z H4ns: digiorgi: because the compile might need to do multiple passes over the code.
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2015-03-27T13:28:18Z digiorgi: thanks! OnLisp is really i good book, i didn't read such things in Practical CL, perhaps my fault
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2015-03-27T13:33:02Z bobbysmith007: SAL9000: the CSS parse should be exposed enough to make it usable.  (css:parse-results "tag.class") => (:AND (:ELEMENT "tag") (:CLASS "class"))
2015-03-27T13:34:23Z bobbysmith007: SAL9000: actually it sounds like you want a css parser not a selector parser, apologies
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2015-03-27T13:35:23Z oleo: hello :)
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2015-03-27T13:38:44Z ayon: pjb: Thanks! I actually do use that method (anonymous functions) for a lot of stuff, but this small group of say 20 functions defines a DSL for describing data presentation (like HAML)
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2015-03-27T13:40:09Z Adlai: now this is a weird one: in slime sprof browsing mode, defining a keyboard macro to expand a frame (RET) and move up one row (C-p), then repeatedly executing it - closes each frame when moving to the next
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2015-03-27T13:41:12Z pjb: ayon: then $lw-define-presenter-functions should be a macro.
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2015-03-27T13:42:03Z ayon: pjb it is :)
2015-03-27T13:42:07Z pjb: Good.
2015-03-27T13:42:22Z ayon: I fixed it now, so it's working and quite fun!
2015-03-27T13:43:06Z Adlai: mitigation: use the up arrow key instead of C-p
2015-03-27T13:43:08Z ayon: Now I will get back to the tree walker that emits the HTML and see how it goes.
2015-03-27T13:45:02Z luis` is now known as luis1
2015-03-27T13:45:09Z Adlai ended up with Callers and Calls above the first row of the report :-\
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2015-03-27T14:21:11Z Fizzixnerd: join #ghc-mod
2015-03-27T14:21:13Z Fizzixnerd: list
2015-03-27T14:21:19Z Fizzixnerd: whoops
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2015-03-27T14:30:01Z ayon: How can I get the actual typed representation of a :symbol-Like-thIs for printing?
2015-03-27T14:30:11Z ayon: I.e. not all UPPCASEd?
2015-03-27T14:30:51Z pjb: (symbol-name  :symbol-Like-thIs) --> ":SYMBOL-LIKE-THIS"
2015-03-27T14:31:02Z flip214: ayon: (intern "symbol-Like-thIs" :keyword)
2015-03-27T14:31:23Z pjb: or just:  :|symbol-Like-thIs|
2015-03-27T14:31:34Z ayon: and if it's a variable?
2015-03-27T14:31:39Z pjb: what?
2015-03-27T14:31:44Z Xach: ayon: by default, a symbol with mixed case like that does have an all-uppercase symbol-name.
2015-03-27T14:31:54Z pjb: (let ((|myVariable| 42)) |myVariable|) --> 42
2015-03-27T14:32:07Z Xach: ayon: you can change case when printing with the value of *print-case*, among other options.
2015-03-27T14:32:10Z pjb: (let ((|my very own Variable| 42)) |my very own Variable|) --> 42
2015-03-27T14:32:21Z Xach: that changes the printed case, not the actual symbol name case
2015-03-27T14:32:23Z ayon: I am iterating over a plist with key value pairs, and I want to print the key in the right case
2015-03-27T14:32:34Z pjb: And you can also preserve it while reading with (SETF (READTABLEu-CASE *READTABLE*) :PRESERVE)
2015-03-27T14:32:49Z Xach: the printer does what's right to read back properly
2015-03-27T14:32:58Z Xach: you have to be more specific if you want a different version of right
2015-03-27T14:33:00Z pjb: s/u-/-/
2015-03-27T14:34:04Z ayon: (format nil "~A=\"~A\"" k v)
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2015-03-27T14:34:29Z pjb: (format nil "~A=\"~A\"" '|my Key| 42) --> "my key=\"42\""
2015-03-27T14:34:29Z ayon: Where k, can be any typed symbol, like :style, :width, and I want it to say style="xxx" instead of STYLE="xxx"
2015-03-27T14:34:39Z pjb: ayon: you need to control *print-case* if you print symbols!
2015-03-27T14:35:00Z pjb: (format nil "~A=\"~A\"" (symbol-name '|my Key|) 42) --> "my Key=\"42\""
2015-03-27T14:35:07Z jdz: clhs ~(
2015-03-27T14:35:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cha.htm
2015-03-27T14:35:11Z Xach: ayon: one easy way is "~(~A~)=~S" k v"
2015-03-27T14:35:13Z pjb: you can print the symbol-name instead, if you don't want to control the *print-case*.
2015-03-27T14:35:16Z Xach: (sans that final ")
2015-03-27T14:35:36Z pjb: there's no configuration of ~( that preserves the symbol name case!
2015-03-27T14:36:37Z ayon: hrrm, with *print-case* I can up it or down it, but there's not way to say: Just print what you received.
2015-03-27T14:37:02Z jdz: also, to print such a plist: (format nil "~{~(~A~)=\"~A\"~^ ~}" http-attr-plist)
2015-03-27T14:37:26Z Xach: ayon: because by default, symbol names are converted to all uppercase, so what was received is no longer available.
2015-03-27T14:37:43Z ayon: Thought so.
2015-03-27T14:37:48Z ayon: it's not a biggy
2015-03-27T14:37:56Z ayon: Just a visual kind of thing
2015-03-27T14:38:38Z ayon: downcase is better than up :) so that's what I'll change
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2015-03-27T14:39:29Z ayon: god I love lisp.
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2015-03-27T14:41:08Z ayon: Once you get it to work, man does it do some cool stuff
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2015-03-27T14:41:29Z jdz: ayon: did you try my suggestion yet?
2015-03-27T14:41:46Z jdz: it'll blow your socks off!
2015-03-27T14:41:49Z jdz: guaranteed
2015-03-27T14:41:50Z ayon: OMG, no, but I will
2015-03-27T14:41:54Z ayon: I love format so much
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2015-03-27T14:43:02Z ayon: Yup, works and is awesome
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2015-03-27T14:45:09Z ayon: jdz: Thanks! got rid of several lines of code
2015-03-27T14:45:34Z jdz: awesome
2015-03-27T14:46:01Z jdz: one thing you'll probably want to do is ensure that the values are properly escaped, though
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2015-03-27T14:49:44Z ayon: jdz: Yeah, for right now I am just getting things rigged up and working
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2015-03-27T14:50:10Z ayon: jdz: you did mean escaped from nasty code, or something else?
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2015-03-27T14:50:41Z ayon: jdz: like a sanitize function?
2015-03-27T14:51:53Z jdz: ayon; the FORMAT call wraps values in double quotes, so you must ensure all double quotes in attribute values are escaped
2015-03-27T14:53:24Z pjb: In general, you can use ~S to print escaped strings, but for HTML/XML there are more complex rules, so you really want to implement STANDARDS.
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2015-03-27T15:00:21Z ayon: So when using format, or print, all " in the string have \, is that a printing convention, or will they have to be removed/stripped?
2015-03-27T15:01:23Z jdz: that's the readable representation of the string. you can use PRINT on it to see how it will be written
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2015-03-27T15:06:39Z pjb: ayon: why don't you try it yourself?  (let ((*print-circle* nil)) (format t "~W~%~:*~A~%~:*~S~%" "hello\"world\"\\!"))
2015-03-27T15:07:22Z pjb: ayon: have a look at with-standard-io-syntax
2015-03-27T15:07:23Z pjb: clhs with-standard-io-syntax
2015-03-27T15:07:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_std_.htm
2015-03-27T15:07:47Z Adlai wonders what swank-sbcl will think of getting http://superuser.com/a/668155
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2015-03-27T15:09:02Z pjb: ayon: (dolist (*print-circle* '(nil t)) (dolist (*print-escape* '(nil t)) (format t "~A ~A~%" *print-circle* *print-escape*) (format t "~W~%~:*~A~%~:*~S~%" "hello\"world\"\\!")))
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2015-03-27T15:22:06Z oleo: eat your eyes :) ♡
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2015-03-27T15:29:26Z Adlai: whoooo, killed the livelocked swank by closing its socket from gdb, crashed remaining threads into debugger, restarted swank, reconnected :D
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2015-03-27T15:29:57Z Adlai was mentally preparing himself for losing this lisp image
2015-03-27T15:30:22Z Adlai: do people ever keep image backups using save-lisp-and-die ?
2015-03-27T15:31:03Z oleo: not really....
2015-03-27T15:31:05Z Fade: I use images as executable binaries quite a bit.
2015-03-27T15:31:07Z oleo: at least not me
2015-03-27T15:31:16Z oleo: mine tend to get very big....
2015-03-27T15:31:20Z oleo: with all stuff loaded....
2015-03-27T15:31:33Z oleo: at least that's not a smart way.....
2015-03-27T15:31:44Z oleo: know what you really need ....then have a go....
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2015-03-27T15:32:46Z Fade: I've started writing system integration and system administrative stuff in lisp in the past year, and being able to push a binary around to various systems for cluster ssh is ++useful.
2015-03-27T15:33:16Z Fade: now, that's not a 'backup' per se but it is an image. :)
2015-03-27T15:33:26Z Adlai: "Heap exhausted, game over. Welcome to LDB" ☹
2015-03-27T15:33:43Z Adlai: after a manually initiated gc
2015-03-27T15:33:58Z Adlai: at least i learned how to kill a livelocked slime
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2015-03-27T15:44:29Z SAL9000: any recommendations on how to generate EPUB files from Lisp?
2015-03-27T15:45:34Z jasom: epub is the one that's a zipped up webpage, right?
2015-03-27T15:45:59Z pjb: yes.
2015-03-27T15:46:08Z jasom: there are tools to generate xhtml and svg
2015-03-27T15:46:11Z SAL9000: it's zipped up restricted subset of HTML + some meta files for table of contents and such
2015-03-27T15:46:13Z pjb: I don't know if we have a zipper.  There's an unzipper in quicklisp.
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2015-03-27T15:46:14Z jasom: no good tools for generating css
2015-03-27T15:46:23Z SAL9000: css I don't care about at this stage
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2015-03-27T15:47:01Z oleo: only old css
2015-03-27T15:47:01Z jasom: https://common-lisp.net/project/zip/
2015-03-27T15:47:11Z oleo: nothing which covers the new ones ?
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2015-03-27T15:49:01Z jasom: and it looks like zip is in quicklisp
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2015-03-27T15:49:44Z oleo: jasom: one of the reasons why closure is failing at some sites requiring new css....
2015-03-27T15:49:55Z ayon: pjb: Sorry, not grokking it, setting both print-readably and print-escape to nil still produces strings with \ in them. So I think they are "in there" and I need to strip them out
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2015-03-27T15:50:31Z pjb: ayon: the string contains a #\\ character!
2015-03-27T15:50:47Z jasom: oleo: I have no idea what you're talking about
2015-03-27T15:50:54Z SAL9000: any recommendations of nice xml output/templating libraries?
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2015-03-27T15:50:59Z pjb: ayon: and ~S ignores *print-escape*, it binds it to t.
2015-03-27T15:51:01Z SAL9000: cliki has a huuuge list, most of which is parsers
2015-03-27T15:51:13Z jasom: SAL9000: for xhtml, I recommend cl-who
2015-03-27T15:51:45Z ayon: I don't use ~S in the format statement
2015-03-27T15:51:55Z ayon: (format nil "~{~(~A~)=\"~A\"~^ ~}" attrs-plist)
2015-03-27T15:52:17Z SAL9000: jasom: unfortunately I'll be dealing with non-html xml too, because epub
2015-03-27T15:52:27Z jasom: SAL9000: I hear good things about cxml for generating xml too
2015-03-27T15:52:27Z ayon: Produces:style=\"width: 100px\" id=\"main_para\", naturally I guess
2015-03-27T15:52:52Z jasom: SAL9000: I've used cl-who for non-html xml before as well, I don't recall if it handles namespaces but it will automatically balance tags for you
2015-03-27T15:53:33Z ayon: pjb: and (remove #\\ ...) doesn't remove them, or doesn't seem to...
2015-03-27T15:53:34Z pjb: ayon: what I'm saying is that the ~W ~A and ~S format specifiers are influenced by some *print-…* global variables.  Therefore when you want a specific output, you have to control them, or use something else than the provided behavior.
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2015-03-27T15:54:15Z ayon: pjb: maybe I misunderstand the concept of controlling them, I set them to nil...
2015-03-27T15:54:16Z pjb: A form such as: (format nil "~{~(~A~)=\"~A\"~^ ~}" attrs-plist) will probably give you broken result, because the exact result depends on the current setting of those *print-…* variables.
2015-03-27T15:54:46Z pjb: Yes, bind them to some value.  (it's better to bind then locally, rather than setting them).
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2015-03-27T15:55:06Z ayon: Okay, I will try locally
2015-03-27T15:56:09Z pjb: (let ((key :name) (val "my \"real\" Name is \\.")) …)
2015-03-27T15:56:33Z ayon: (let ((*print-readably* nil) (*print-escape* nil))
2015-03-27T15:56:45Z ayon: pjb: but still no joy,
2015-03-27T15:56:59Z pjb: (let ((val "\"><script …><div name=\"")) …)
2015-03-27T15:57:30Z jasom: SAL9000: https://common-lisp.net/project/cxml/sax.html#serialization <-- there's the xml output library Xach recommended to me
2015-03-27T15:57:37Z pjb: Perhaps you'd want to use some library to generate html or xml?
2015-03-27T15:58:18Z ayon: pjb: Nope, trying to learn lisp, it's a simple proposition, so I just have to figure out why there are \
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2015-03-27T16:00:10Z oleo: at the time you read in a \ it has a printed representation of \\, so get rid of 2 of'em at once...not just one....
2015-03-27T16:00:21Z oleo: if that's the issue......
2015-03-27T16:00:28Z ayon: It's just very strange to me, in most other languages, \" = " and not \", so there's something I don't understand
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2015-03-27T16:01:11Z jasom: ayon: did you paste a testcase to paste.lisp.org?
2015-03-27T16:01:47Z ayon: jasom: I can, it's a bit big...and complicated
2015-03-27T16:02:03Z jasom: ayon: I'm perennially bored these days, so I'll take a look
2015-03-27T16:05:51Z ayon: jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146538
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2015-03-27T16:06:30Z pjb: ayon: I told you, my test string containst double quotes and backslashes!
2015-03-27T16:06:44Z pjb: ayon: therefore when printing then without escape, you will get double quotes and backslashes!
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2015-03-27T16:07:12Z pjb: That's the reason why escaping is needed.  And the point is that CL string escaping is not HTML attribute value escaping: there are different rules!
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2015-03-27T16:07:36Z pjb: Therefore you cannot use (in general), ~S to produce an HTML attribute value correctly escaped.
2015-03-27T16:08:08Z ayon: pjb: But the fact that they are HTML attributes right now is an example, it could be foo_"bar" and I would not wnat it to be foo_\"bar\"
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2015-03-27T16:08:25Z ayon: pjb: so I have to do it manually? or with concatenate?
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2015-03-27T16:08:47Z jasom: ayon: it looks fine to me
2015-03-27T16:09:26Z ayon: it works, only I don't want \" in the print output, which pjb is trying to explain to me, but I can't seem to grok it, except that I cannot use format
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2015-03-27T16:10:25Z jasom: ayon: print binds *print-escape* to t
2015-03-27T16:10:29Z Bike: oh, that's probably because the lisp printer sometimes tries to print things in a way that lets them be read again
2015-03-27T16:10:30Z jasom: ayon: use princ
2015-03-27T16:10:37Z Bike: so it has to throw in backslashes
2015-03-27T16:10:41Z ayon: princ, k
2015-03-27T16:10:42Z pjb: ayon: try all compbination of *print…* and see which one does what you want.  Alternatively, read clhs pages of those variables.
2015-03-27T16:10:54Z Bike: "read" meaning parsed by lisp, not just read by people or w/e
2015-03-27T16:10:59Z ayon: So seeting *print-escape* to nil doesn't affect print?
2015-03-27T16:11:04Z jasom: correct
2015-03-27T16:11:13Z jasom: clhs print
2015-03-27T16:11:13Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm
2015-03-27T16:11:24Z ayon: pjb: I did read, and set the all to nil for testing, and then set them to nil with a (let ...
2015-03-27T16:11:49Z jasom: pjb, Bike: he was printing the final result with PRINT
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2015-03-27T16:12:50Z ayon: YAY jasom: you were right! and so was pjb, I was just too dense to understand
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2015-03-27T16:14:12Z pjb: ayon: for example (let ((attribute :name) (val "<hello>")) …)  you will have to escape < and > and issue &lt; and &gt; instead.
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2015-03-27T16:15:57Z oleo: lol
2015-03-27T16:16:04Z jasom: ayon: or to use your example ($span `(:id "span_2") "Hello, <world from the span") will generate invalid html as you implement it now
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2015-03-27T16:16:14Z ayon: pjb: right, so html entity encoding, but the idea is: No HTML, just pure lisp code, but if someone wants to put in html, they can, but they're on their own
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2015-03-27T16:17:26Z ayon: jasom: right, for the inner parts of the tag there needs to be html entity encoding etc
2015-03-27T16:18:19Z pjb: ayon: anyways it's an important point to keep in mind: the lisp printer/reader loop is very nice, but it works only between lisp processes.  When you send or receive data from other systems, even if the syntax may be similar, it is often very different (check floating point formats, string formats/escaping), etc.
2015-03-27T16:18:41Z pjb: ayon: hence the need for parsers and generators that don't use lisp printing features, but which generate the exact syntax specified.
2015-03-27T16:19:27Z pjb: (floating points formats are a real PITA).
2015-03-27T16:19:32Z jasom: pjb: looking at his code, he wasn't trying to use the lisp printing features, but rather accidentally doing so
2015-03-27T16:19:47Z jasom: pjb: hence parse-float and parse-number
2015-03-27T16:20:08Z pjb: jasom: hence NOT parse-float or parse-number, when reading fortran C or java formated floats!
2015-03-27T16:20:55Z jasom: pjb: are there C formatted floats for which parse-number with a float-format of double is wrong?
2015-03-27T16:20:56Z pjb: or any other language, they all have their own syntax.
2015-03-27T16:21:37Z digiorgi: what is the meaning of #:?
2015-03-27T16:21:43Z jasom: clhs #:
2015-03-27T16:21:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhe.htm
2015-03-27T16:21:45Z pjb: jasom: of course.
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2015-03-27T16:22:40Z jasom: pjb: of course there is no such thing as a C formatted float, and two implementations of strtod() will often yield different values for the same string
2015-03-27T16:22:46Z ayon: jasom pjb actually, I was just using print for debug output...
2015-03-27T16:23:06Z ayon: I just wanted to see if it was working
2015-03-27T16:24:02Z jasom: pjb: ah, parse-number doesn't handle +infinity apparently
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2015-03-27T16:24:43Z jasom: the only reliable way to send a float is to seralize to the IEE format and then decode on the other end
2015-03-27T16:24:55Z jasom: but not all languages support doing that
2015-03-27T16:25:04Z jasom: and not all FPUs can handle e.g. denormals
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2015-03-27T16:25:17Z jasom: so even that isn't super reliable now that I think about it
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2015-03-27T16:27:39Z jasom: really, the only thing to like about floating-point is that it's reasonably fast and sometimes gives you the right answer
2015-03-27T16:29:05Z pjb: But even simple integers can give you problems.  For example in Ruby, you have bignums by default, in Java you must ask for them explicitely, so sending data from Ruby to Java with json can be real "funny" soon.
2015-03-27T16:29:17Z Bike: sometimes gives you an answer that includes the correct one in its range
2015-03-27T16:29:41Z jasom: Bike: for "correct" i mean "close enough"
2015-03-27T16:30:39Z jasom: it's reasonably fast and sometimes gives you an answer that is within an acceptable margin of error
2015-03-27T16:31:32Z jasom: for much real-world data, your inputs are only correct to under -100dB of their value so double-precision is plenty good if you avoid the many pitfalls
2015-03-27T16:32:03Z jasom: 100dB would be a 16-bit mantissa or so if my mental math is right
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2015-03-27T16:38:51Z jasom: 16.6 bits after doing the math
2015-03-27T16:39:10Z jasom: (but i did the math in floating point, so it might be wrong :P)
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2015-03-27T17:03:17Z digiorgi: how can i generate with gensyms something like this (let ((#:var "hi")) #:var). The problem is that the two #:vars are diferent.
2015-03-27T17:03:42Z digiorgi: i cant macroexpand a let with gensyms and use them in the body of a let?
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2015-03-27T17:05:26Z jasom: (let ((var (gensym))) `(let ((,var "hi")) ,var))
2015-03-27T17:06:23Z jasom: digiorgi: alexandria (a lisp utility library) also has a with-gensyms macro which can be more clear if you have a lot of gensyms in one macro
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2015-03-27T17:07:57Z jasom: you could also use #= to do it with #: and #n but that makes for less readable code when you have nested macro expansions, since all the gensyms will have the same name
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2015-03-27T17:09:20Z jasom: so (let ((#1=#:var "hi")) #1#) would work, but is non-idiomatic
2015-03-27T17:10:58Z digiorgi: my macro is like (defmacro x () (let ((sym (gensym)) `(let ((,sym "hi")) ,sym))
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2015-03-27T17:11:27Z digiorgi: but the compiler says that :#sym_something is undefined
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2015-03-27T17:12:42Z jasom: huh?
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2015-03-27T17:13:43Z jasom: "(defmacro x () (let ((sym (gensym))) `(let ((,sym "hi")) ,sym))) (x)" prints "hi" for me
2015-03-27T17:14:44Z pjb: digiorgi: use (setf *print-circle* t)
2015-03-27T17:15:18Z hitecnologys: If I wanted my applicatation thats is called from command-line to write configurational files to the directory where it's stored, how'd I go about that? *LOAD-TRUENAME*?
2015-03-27T17:15:31Z pjb: nope
2015-03-27T17:15:40Z jasom: hitecnologys: are you using asdf?
2015-03-27T17:15:51Z jasom: hitecnologys: there is a system-relative-pathname utility function
2015-03-27T17:15:53Z hitecnologys: Of course I do.
2015-03-27T17:15:54Z pjb: you have to use whatever posix api is provided by your implementation to obtain argv[0] and cwdir
2015-03-27T17:16:05Z hitecnologys: jasom: that wouldn't work as I call image.
2015-03-27T17:16:09Z jasom: oh, I missed called from command-line
2015-03-27T17:16:24Z jasom: yeah argv[0] then
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2015-03-27T17:16:29Z hitecnologys: pjb: ah, POSIX. I see. I hoped there were other options.
2015-03-27T17:16:34Z pjb: argv[0] AND cwdir
2015-03-27T17:16:49Z pjb: cwdir is needed when argv[0] is a relative path.
2015-03-27T17:16:52Z jasom: right
2015-03-27T17:16:58Z hitecnologys: jasom: pure argv[0] won't work as application path can be in PATH.
2015-03-27T17:16:59Z pjb: And of course, you have to do that before chdir.
2015-03-27T17:17:22Z hitecnologys: I see.
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2015-03-27T17:17:48Z hitecnologys: Thanks for help. I'll take it from that.
2015-03-27T17:17:50Z jasom: also if it's on a mac and you made an application bundle, it gets more complicated
2015-03-27T17:18:06Z hitecnologys: Well, I hope not to run it on OS X.
2015-03-27T17:18:17Z hitecnologys: Currently it's Linux-only
2015-03-27T17:18:37Z jasom: yeah, if it's linux only, then just do it the way you'd do it from any other language
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2015-03-27T17:19:09Z jasom: but if it's linux consider using XDG style paths for storing configuration info instead
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2015-03-27T17:19:43Z jasom: that's what quicklisp does
2015-03-27T17:19:49Z jasom: er asdf
2015-03-27T17:19:52Z jasom: not quicklisp
2015-03-27T17:19:52Z pjb: data files are not usually stored where the scripts are stored!
2015-03-27T17:19:55Z jasom: brain fart
2015-03-27T17:20:52Z hitecnologys: Oh, right, of course! I totally forgot about that.
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2015-03-27T17:21:24Z hitecnologys: XDG's .config is exactly what I need.
2015-03-27T17:22:16Z pjb: Then be sure to get the environment variables: http://standards.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/basedir-spec-latest.html#variables
2015-03-27T17:22:37Z hitecnologys: Is there any recommened implementation-dependant way to get environmental variables in CL?
2015-03-27T17:22:59Z hitecnologys: Er, recommended.
2015-03-27T17:23:14Z pjb: you can probably use uiop:in-user-configuration-directory
2015-03-27T17:23:42Z pjb: uiop:getenv
2015-03-27T17:24:18Z hitecnologys: The former doesn't seem to return anything other than NIL.
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2015-03-27T17:25:28Z pjb: Use it as: (uiop:in-user-configuration-directory "myapp.conf" :direction :output) when creating the file.
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2015-03-27T17:26:19Z hitecnologys: Oh, now it works.
2015-03-27T17:26:31Z hitecnologys: OK, thanks a lot.
2015-03-27T17:27:36Z jasom: pjb: that gives me /etc/xdg/common-lisp/myapp.conf
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2015-03-27T17:27:52Z pjb: hitecnologys: notice that there may be several user configuration directories.  This is the reason why there's this parameter.
2015-03-27T17:28:03Z pjb: I get #P"/home/pjb/.config/common-lisp/myapp.conf"
2015-03-27T17:28:19Z pjb: at the repl.
2015-03-27T17:28:25Z hitecnologys: I get /etc/xdg/common-lisp/myapp.conf either.
2015-03-27T17:28:47Z pjb: (uiop:user-configuration-directories) --> (#P"/home/pjb/.config/common-lisp/")
2015-03-27T17:29:06Z jasom: (#P"/etc/xdg/common-lisp/" #P"/export/jmiller/home/.config/common-lisp/")
2015-03-27T17:29:06Z hitecnologys: (#P"/etc/xdg/common-lisp/" #P"/home/hitecnologys/.config/common-lisp/") here.
2015-03-27T17:29:17Z hitecnologys: Why's that?
2015-03-27T17:29:30Z pjb: Try in your shell: env|grep XDF
2015-03-27T17:29:35Z pjb: Try in your shell: env|grep XDG
2015-03-27T17:29:43Z jasom: declare -x XDG_CONFIG_DIRS="/etc/xdg"
2015-03-27T17:30:04Z hitecnologys: Yeah, it's there "XDG_CONFIG_DIRS=/etc/xdg".
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2015-03-27T17:30:44Z jasom: /etc/env.d/90xdg-data-base:XDG_CONFIG_DIRS="/etc/xdg"
2015-03-27T17:31:03Z jasom: that's where it's coming from for me, but note from the XDG spec
2015-03-27T17:31:13Z jasom: "If $XDG_CONFIG_DIRS is either not set or empty, a value equal to /etc/xdg should be used."
2015-03-27T17:31:22Z hitecnologys: Same here.
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2015-03-27T17:31:35Z jasom: so the behavior should be identical for the case of it not set and the case of it equal to "/etc/xdg"
2015-03-27T17:31:39Z hitecnologys: jasom: do you happen to be using Gentoo?
2015-03-27T17:31:45Z jasom: hitecnologys: yup
2015-03-27T17:31:56Z antoszka: same here
2015-03-27T17:31:57Z jasom: where does one file bugs against uiop?
2015-03-27T17:31:58Z hitecnologys: jasom: oh, so that's the reason.
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2015-03-27T17:32:39Z hitecnologys: That doesn't seem like a bug to me.
2015-03-27T17:32:46Z jasom: it absolutely is a bug
2015-03-27T17:32:52Z hitecnologys: What's the correct behaviour then?
2015-03-27T17:33:03Z jasom: the XDG specification says that if XDG_CONFIG_DIRS is not set or empty, a value equal to /etc/xdg should be used
2015-03-27T17:33:26Z jasom: so whatever the correct behavior is, it should be teh same with XDG_CONFIG_DIRS unset or set to /etc/xdg
2015-03-27T17:33:41Z hitecnologys: Hmm.
2015-03-27T17:33:45Z hitecnologys: Now I'm confused.
2015-03-27T17:34:05Z hitecnologys: I just wanted to write down a few config files...
2015-03-27T17:35:00Z pjb: notice that for site-wide scripts, /etc/xdg is a nice place to store configurations.
2015-03-27T17:35:23Z jasom: right, but is, IMO, the wrong value for a function named USER-config-directory
2015-03-27T17:35:47Z pjb: yes.
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2015-03-27T17:43:36Z jasom: pjb: assuming user-configuration-directories is in order-of-importance, it's still wrong since $XDG_CONFIG_HOME is considered more important than any of the base directories defined by $XDG_CONFIG_DIRS
2015-03-27T17:43:51Z jasom posted a report to the asdf list
2015-03-27T17:44:32Z jasom: hitecnologys: you want to use the uiop function pjb suggests.  However there is a bug in it; if you unset XDG_CONFIG_DIRS it will work around the bug for now.
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2015-03-27T17:51:23Z hitecnologys: jasom: I see. Thanks.
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2015-03-27T17:58:25Z jasom: blargh
2015-03-27T17:58:46Z jasom: I have a function that takes 8.6 seconds normally, but 0.2 seconds when I enable sb-sprof on it :(
2015-03-27T17:59:19Z oGMo: heisenlag
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2015-03-27T18:14:32Z ayon: How does something like cl-annot work? I mean adding @export or such?
2015-03-27T18:15:09Z jasom: ayon: reader macro
2015-03-27T18:15:11Z hitecnologys: ayon: reader macros.
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2015-03-27T18:16:50Z ayon: funny enough, I did read that from On Lisp the other day
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2015-03-27T18:55:41Z JokesOnYou77: Hi all
2015-03-27T18:56:07Z pjb: Ho one
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2015-03-27T19:10:26Z jasom: hmm, it looks like all the CPU time I was trying to measure got shifted to the (require 'sb-sprof)
2015-03-27T19:10:37Z jasom: any idea why (require 'sb-sprof) would take ~8 seconds?
2015-03-27T19:11:19Z jasom:  3,302,709,792 bytes consed <-- that also looks wrong
2015-03-27T19:12:17Z jasom: this is right after startup on sbcl 1.2.9; doing a (require 'sb-sprof) takes 8s and conses 3GB
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2015-03-27T19:12:47Z pjb:  jasom: you should sprof it!
2015-03-27T19:12:55Z jasom: pjb: :P
2015-03-27T19:13:45Z jasom: pjb: well it was loading quicklisp that was having issues before, so I added a require sb-sprof, and then *that* took 8s and quicklisp went fast
2015-03-27T19:13:52Z jasom: so maybe something with initializing asdf?
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2015-03-27T19:16:29Z jasom: yup
2015-03-27T19:16:43Z jasom moved everything out of .local/share/common-lisp and it got *way* faster
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2015-03-27T19:21:38Z rak[1]: .. i came across https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2376.txt today
2015-03-27T19:21:50Z rak[1]: has anyone ever defined an application/lisp wrt HTTP ?
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2015-03-27T19:30:48Z jasom: ah, I had a bug in my script to build my asdf tree
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2015-03-27T19:31:19Z jasom: I had a few million .asd files in there
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2015-03-27T19:34:16Z jasom: down to 108 is much faster
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2015-03-27T19:35:17Z jasom: and I only had 10k .asd files originally (I thought the bug was 2^n but it was n^2)
2015-03-27T19:35:33Z fe[nl]ix_: jasom: I hope that was an exaggeration, most filesystems' performance degrades significantly with 10^6 files in the same directory
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2015-03-27T19:41:43Z jasom: fe[nl]ix_: no directory had more than 100 files in it
2015-03-27T19:42:11Z jasom: well 108
2015-03-27T19:42:34Z jasom: is common-lisp.net git down?
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2015-03-27T19:43:12Z fe[nl]ix_: what URL are you trying to access ?
2015-03-27T19:43:19Z jasom: git://common-lisp.net/projects/asdf/asdf.git
2015-03-27T19:44:17Z Xach: jasom: i think git:// is turned off, things have switched to https and gitlab.
2015-03-27T19:44:31Z jasom: ah, I see that now; need to update their project page
2015-03-27T19:44:51Z fe[nl]ix_: there has been a major reorganization at c-l.net
2015-03-27T19:44:59Z fe[nl]ix_: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf
2015-03-27T19:45:12Z jasom: yeah, I found it
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2015-03-27T19:49:53Z remi`bd: wow, the whole c-l.net site has been redesigned
2015-03-27T19:50:07Z remi`bd: and a CL fondation has been founded
2015-03-27T19:50:36Z remi`bd: oh, the foundation is old, sorry about that.
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2015-03-27T19:56:34Z rak[1]: common-lisp.net doesn't even mention CLISP ... :[
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2015-03-27T19:58:04Z rak[1]: also, wasn't there a nice basic description of `common-lisp` on that site?
2015-03-27T20:04:02Z flip214: What's the easiest way to make hunchentoot's static file handling functions return an expire header, too?
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2015-03-27T20:08:30Z jasom: hitecnologys: https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/1437480 <-- contains a patch for UIOP
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2015-03-27T20:08:53Z hitecnologys: jasom: oh, neat. Thanks.
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2015-03-27T22:47:32Z jasom is tempted to name his lisp implementation "worse"
2015-03-27T22:48:22Z hitecnologys: Why "worse"?
2015-03-27T22:48:30Z jasom: hitecnologys: because "worse is better"
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2015-03-27T22:48:37Z hitecnologys: Heh.
2015-03-27T22:48:49Z jasom: (if you don't get it search for "lisp: good news, bad news and how to win big"
2015-03-27T22:49:15Z jasom: s/ and/,
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2015-03-27T22:56:42Z Xach: wurst is better
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2015-03-27T22:59:24Z Shinmera agrees with Xach
2015-03-27T22:59:54Z thierryg: a tern the wurst
2015-03-27T23:00:06Z thierryg: fair trade
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2015-03-27T23:05:46Z hitecnologys: Woah, you didn't close the paren. )
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2015-03-27T23:07:25Z pjb:  hitecnologys: I'm happy to report that now, this buffer has balanced parentheses (as far as it goes).  Thanks.
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2015-03-27T23:08:05Z hitecnologys: Awesome. Now my mind can be put at rest.
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2015-03-28T00:39:02Z Fare: any windows lisper around?
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2015-03-28T01:11:34Z Fare: pjb: you think windows lispers are alien intelligences?
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2015-03-28T01:14:23Z pjb: Fare: lispers are rare, windows users are rare, windows lispers are much rarer.
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2015-03-28T03:27:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-03-28T04:56:40Z SAL9000: are there any "best practices" to follow for writing libraries intended for public consumption?
2015-03-28T04:59:06Z beach: SAL9000: In terms of the public interface you mean?
2015-03-28T04:59:26Z beach: Otherwise, there are general style recommendations, but they are not specific to libraries.
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2015-03-28T05:03:10Z SAL9000: beach: both for the interface and general style
2015-03-28T05:03:41Z beach: For the general style, there are the LUV slides: http://www.iiia.csic.es/~puyol/TAPIA/transpas/Norvig-luv-slides.pdf
2015-03-28T05:04:31Z beach: And Google has a style guide written by Fare: https://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/lispguide.xml
2015-03-28T05:06:21Z beach: For the public interface, design a set of "protocols".  Generally speaking a protocol is a collection of generic functions and classes.
2015-03-28T05:08:11Z beach: The set of generic functions in a protocol is such that you can not split the set in two parts A and B such that there is no class in common between the two sets.
2015-03-28T05:08:31Z beach: Otherwise, it would be split into two protocols.
2015-03-28T05:11:19Z beach: If you want to understand about the design of protocols, I strongly recommend the CLIM II specification an excellent example of such design: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/index.html
2015-03-28T05:12:39Z SAL9000: Thanks :-)
2015-03-28T05:13:41Z beach: Sure.  If you have more specific questions, don't hesitate to ask.  But it is hard to give more information about such a general topic.
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2015-03-28T05:15:19Z Rojstti: greetings
2015-03-28T05:15:29Z beach: Hello Rojstti.
2015-03-28T05:15:34Z Rojstti: =)
2015-03-28T05:19:29Z Rojstti: I'm making a little application, and I want to provide my users a mini-language, tiny.  Users will be able to make simple aliases of commands in the app., and a simple "'if-then" control---nothing fancy.  My question: is Lispp so much overkill that I should use Python instead (or another of the new scripters)?
2015-03-28T05:20:44Z SAL9000: Rojstti: for the mini-language, perhaps take a look at Lua.
2015-03-28T05:21:11Z beach: Rojstti: Why do you want to restrict what the users can do?
2015-03-28T05:22:22Z beach: Rojstti: The absolute best way of writing an application is to write it in Common Lisp so that you have the same language for implementation and "scripting".  It gives the most power to the user, the best performance overall, and the best debugging capabilities.
2015-03-28T05:22:41Z Rojstti: my users skill level is very elementary, and anything unfamiliar is experienced as a burden.
2015-03-28T05:22:57Z beach: Just don't document the advanced stuff then until you have users that need it.
2015-03-28T05:24:31Z beach: The people who wrote Multics Emacs in MacLisp wrote documents about unsophisticated users writing Emacs extensions in (a DSL written in) MacLisp.
2015-03-28T05:25:22Z beach: By providing a DSL implemented as an embedded language, you get the best of all worlds.
2015-03-28T05:25:51Z beach: Easy for the users to understand, easy to implement, easy to debug, fast, general.
2015-03-28T05:25:57Z Zhivago: I expect that DSLs will be out of fashion again in a year or two.
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2015-03-28T05:28:10Z Rojstti: I thought of Lisp initially precisely for all the powerful facilities it gives me.  But since my app is simple and of narrow scope, I thought Lisp might be too big a wrench.
2015-03-28T05:29:19Z beach: Rojstti: Your analogy doesn't hold water.  Power is a problem only if exposed to the user in documentation, or if the user might use that power by accident.
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2015-03-28T05:30:31Z beach: By providing a DSL as an embedded language, you can make life easier for the unsophisticated user, while still maintaining the power.   Furthermore, such a DSL is easy to write in Lisp, as documented in for example On Lisp by Paul Graham.
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2015-03-28T05:32:02Z Rojstti: beach: point well taken
2015-03-28T05:34:26Z Rojstti: Another concern was the readability of the code for postproduction maintenance/extensibility.  I was told that Python semantics are more obvious at first sight, whereas Lisp is more difficult to read and understand what the code is doing.
2015-03-28T05:35:15Z beach: With a DSL you impose whatever semantics you want.
2015-03-28T05:36:01Z beach: Rojstti: You understand that you are in a channel dedicated to Common Lisp, right?  You may not get an unbiased answer about other languages here.
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2015-03-28T05:36:54Z Fare: the LUV slides have plenty of good stuff, and some bad stuff too
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2015-03-28T05:37:09Z Rojstti: beach: it's ok; i favor Lisp.
2015-03-28T05:37:16Z beach: Rojstti: What could possibly be the difficulty with respect to the semantics of "simple aliases of commands in the app., and a simple "'if-then" control"
2015-03-28T05:37:26Z beach: ?
2015-03-28T05:37:42Z Fare: someone else has taken over the lispguide within google. I haven't looked how extensive the changes, and they might not have updated the external version
2015-03-28T05:37:59Z beach: Fare: Good to know.
2015-03-28T05:38:31Z Fare: (I no longer do lisp at google)
2015-03-28T05:38:43Z Fare: (except that I'm writing a lisp script right now for personal utilities)
2015-03-28T05:39:17Z beach: Rojstti: I think the secret here is the DSL.  In either case, if you have unsophisticated users, you do not want to start by having them learn all the syntax and semantics of a general programming language.  You therefore provide a "customization DSL", tailored to your application.
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2015-03-28T05:40:07Z beach: Rojstti: And, as it turns out, such a DSL is much easier to provide if you write it in Common Lisp.
2015-03-28T05:41:05Z Rojstti: beach: great.  Paul Graham on my pillow it is.
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2015-03-28T05:45:04Z Rojstti: My users will be presented with maybe half dozen commands they can use.  Then they are instructed they can string them together under a name they choose; and that they can say "if ham, then eggs".  That's it, no pipes, no redirects, no "case do", no "for", no "return", just a simple schema ma'am.
2015-03-28T05:46:59Z SAL9000: beach: is it good style to put (defpackage) forms into a seperate file?
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2015-03-28T05:48:13Z Rojstti: It's in my code to carry out that functionality that I thought the readability of Lisp might be burden to me later on, because I do foresee extending/maintaining my app later on.
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2015-03-28T05:52:08Z Quadrescence: What to hack on this night...
2015-03-28T05:52:43Z Rojstti: Am I failing to be ambitious enough?
2015-03-28T05:53:48Z Quadrescence: Rojstti, what are you talking about? :)
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2015-03-28T05:55:04Z brucem: hey Quadrescence
2015-03-28T05:55:12Z Quadrescence: brucem, hello hello
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2015-03-28T05:57:52Z Rojstti: Quadrescence: oh, you came in late.  I was just wondering if I Lisp was overkill, and so I should use Python--or not--for a small application I want to make: let novice users make simple aliases (no pipes, no redirection, no complex control structures).
2015-03-28T05:58:30Z Quadrescence: Rojstti, simple aliases... aliases for what?
2015-03-28T05:58:33Z Rojstti: s/if I Lisp/if using Lisp/
2015-03-28T05:59:28Z Rojstti: Quadrescence: aliases just for a half dozen commands my app would provide for my users.
2015-03-28T06:00:04Z Quadrescence: I don't think I understand. Do you have an app written already? Or are you looking to write one?
2015-03-28T06:00:12Z Quadrescence: What does it/do you want it to do?
2015-03-28T06:00:17Z Rojstti: looking to write one
2015-03-28T06:01:27Z Rojstti: my app provides a few commands for my users to do things with files, and it allows them to make simple aliases  of those commands.
2015-03-28T06:01:56Z Quadrescence: Do you want to make a sort of shell?
2015-03-28T06:03:16Z Rojstti: Quadrescence: nowhere near that  ;)  lol.  It's merely letting users use my simple commands, which have no options, no redirection, etc.
2015-03-28T06:03:47Z Rojstti: a nano-shell if you will
2015-03-28T06:03:59Z Quadrescence: Rojstti, so you want to make things that are kind of like unix programs like cat for example?
2015-03-28T06:04:33Z Rojstti: Quadrescence: yes, sort of like that
2015-03-28T06:04:53Z Rojstti: but very simple
2015-03-28T06:04:53Z Quadrescence: That's a fine project to do in Lisp I think.
2015-03-28T06:05:05Z Quadrescence: Python would be a little bit more straightforward in setup probably.
2015-03-28T06:05:41Z Rojstti: Quadrescence: my concern was whether Lisp was overkill for this tiny project.
2015-03-28T06:05:52Z Rojstti: seems to be.
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2015-03-28T06:06:11Z Quadrescence: Well, I assume that if you want to recreate simple little utility programs, then anything is overkill if you have the utility programs themselves already.
2015-03-28T06:06:13Z beach: SAL9000: I always do that because I sometimes want packages to be defined differently.
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2015-03-28T06:07:56Z beach: Quadrescence: You just undid all the pedagogical talk I laboriously put together.
2015-03-28T06:08:13Z SAL9000: beach: what do you mean by "defined differently"?
2015-03-28T06:08:34Z Quadrescence: beach, ha!
2015-03-28T06:08:48Z beach: SAL9000: I mean I sometimes want a different DEFPACKAGE to be associated with the rest of the software.
2015-03-28T06:08:51Z Rojstti: beach: heh  =)  no; i've taken your advise to heart.
2015-03-28T06:08:54Z brucem: beach: You should fly out and spend some time talking with me.
2015-03-28T06:09:01Z Quadrescence: I don't really understand the motivations and goals, and you probably have more context beach :)
2015-03-28T06:09:19Z beach: brucem: I would like to, but why do you think so?
2015-03-28T06:10:04Z brucem: beach: I'm writing parts of a CLIM-like system in TypeScript to run in the browser on top of React.
2015-03-28T06:10:05Z SAL9000: beach: ah. I'm talking about the choice between putting (and-or '(defpackage) '(defsystem)) into the same file as the package contents, or putting them into a packages.lisp
2015-03-28T06:10:48Z beach: SAL9000: Yes, exactly.  I put them in a different file so that I can change that to a different file in different contexts.
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2015-03-28T06:11:25Z SAL9000: I think I see :-)
2015-03-28T06:11:32Z beach: SAL9000: Also, I typically have several different files to be compiled in the same package, so it then makes sense to have a separate file for the package definition(s).
2015-03-28T06:12:18Z beach: brucem: Sounds like a nice project!
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2015-03-28T06:13:11Z brucem: beach: Hopefully ... we're trying to create some aspects of the experience with presentations and commands for the thing I'm working on to make a GUI that blends CLI and GUI elements well / in an interesting way.
2015-03-28T06:13:52Z beach: SAL9000: Since I am working on a Common Lisp implementation, I sometimes write functions with the same name as a Common Lisp function, say for instance COUNT.  In a package for testing this module in an existing host Common Lisp system, I want to :SHADOW the symbol COUNT.  In a native package, I don't.
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2015-03-28T06:15:02Z beach: brucem: Sounds good.  I'll plan for a visit.  :)
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2015-03-28T06:15:26Z SAL9000: beach: makes sense. So you're hacking on SICL?
2015-03-28T06:15:35Z beach: SAL9000: Yes.
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2015-03-28T06:19:30Z beach: Rojstti: I strongly advice you to keep the S-expression notation.  There is widespread belief that such notation is more difficult for unsophisticated users.  That is not true; they will quickly get used to it.  And it saves you a LOT of work by not making it necessary for you to invent a syntax, write a parser, etc.
2015-03-28T06:19:54Z brucem: it makes macros a lot easier too.
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2015-03-28T06:20:09Z SAL9000: if you really want python-style, there's http://readable.sourceforge.net/
2015-03-28T06:20:28Z brucem: (speaking as someone that has a non-s-expression macro system that needs fixing / improvements)
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2015-03-28T06:28:20Z beach: Rojstti: These days I tend to split my software into "modules".  Each module is in a separate directory.  Each module has an ASDF system associated with it.  Each module has one file containing a package definition and one or more files containing other code.
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2015-03-28T06:29:33Z beach: Rojstti: Though, I suppose a module *could* have more than one package in it.
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2015-03-28T06:30:52Z beach: By organizing it that way, I can then forget about where I put a particular module, and just include it in the :DEPENDS-ON list of the client ASDF system.
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2015-03-28T06:33:16Z Rojstti: beach: i hear you.  Is it the consistent syntax of s-expressions that makes them easy to use?
2015-03-28T06:33:18Z beach: Er, those were made for SAL9000
2015-03-28T06:33:32Z beach: Rojstti: Yes.
2015-03-28T06:33:55Z beach: Rojstti: Since it is not a problem for the user, it is MUCH easier for you, the maintainer and programmer.
2015-03-28T06:34:34Z Rojstti: beach: 'k
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2015-03-28T06:36:43Z Rojstti: Let me see if I'm understanding this point: if I make a DSL, then users that will extend my app don't need to know Lisp ... because I make the syntax + semantics that users will use.  eh?
2015-03-28T06:37:02Z beach: Exactly.
2015-03-28T06:37:10Z Rojstti: banging.
2015-03-28T06:37:58Z beach: BUT, when I say "syntax", I don't necessarily mean that you should change the SURFACE SYNTAX of the language.  There is usually no point in doing that, and it makes your life harder.
2015-03-28T06:38:05Z beach: I am thinking of the second-level syntax.
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2015-03-28T06:38:16Z beach: I.e., special operators and their arguments.
2015-03-28T06:39:05Z Rojstti: beach: ok
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2015-03-28T06:39:47Z beach: For example: (alias old-command new-command)  (if (current-window-is-main-window) then (set-color blue)) stuff like that.
2015-03-28T06:40:50Z Rojstti: beach: yes, the "to add your command, you do it this way" sort of grammar ... i'm thinking.
2015-03-28T06:41:28Z Rojstti: to the user.
2015-03-28T06:41:47Z beach: Do you mean what to write in the user documentation?
2015-03-28T06:42:20Z Rojstti: beach: no, i'm just thinking about the model of implementing the facility for the user.
2015-03-28T06:42:35Z beach: Oh.
2015-03-28T06:42:50Z beach: That is one thing you will have to design yourself. :)
2015-03-28T06:43:10Z beach: Since I don't even know what the application is about...
2015-03-28T06:43:22Z Rojstti: beach: my implementation of the facility I do all in Lisp code, of course.
2015-03-28T06:43:57Z Rojstti: beach: like i said, it's just simple commands for the users to handle their files.
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2015-03-28T06:50:34Z Rojstti: I'm thrilled by the versatility of Lisp.  Some impressive apps. have been done---Emacs not the least of them.
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2015-03-28T06:51:26Z Zhivago: Emacs was written in C.
2015-03-28T06:51:48Z Rojstti: even the glue?
2015-03-28T06:52:21Z beach: Multics Emacs is a much better example than GNU Emacs.  It was entirely written in Multics MacLisp.
2015-03-28T06:53:14Z Rojstti: Gnu Emacs' interpreter is Lisp, no?
2015-03-28T06:53:41Z beach: It interprets a language called Emacs Lisp and it is written in C.
2015-03-28T06:53:57Z Rojstti: i thought so
2015-03-28T06:54:10Z beach: Though, as Zhivago points out, since the interpreter is slow, a large part of the basic stuff is written in C.
2015-03-28T06:54:29Z beach: ... which is why Multics Emacs is a better example.
2015-03-28T06:54:39Z Rojstti: yes, the editing engine is all C, i thought
2015-03-28T06:54:40Z ggole: There's a ~1.1M lines of elisp and ~300K of C
2015-03-28T06:54:42Z ggole: So it's a bit of a mix
2015-03-28T06:55:26Z beach: Multics MacLisp generated machine code, so there was no interpreter involved.  Or maybe there was one for interactive use, but in general, files would be compiled.
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2015-03-28T06:58:09Z Quadrescence: CLIMACS or bust
2015-03-28T06:58:39Z Rojstti: is compiling today's Lisp to Java bytecode the trend?  will it endure?
2015-03-28T06:58:53Z Zhivago: Only until javascript takes over. :)
2015-03-28T06:59:13Z beach: Rojstti: I don't see any such trend.
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2015-03-28T06:59:46Z Rojstti: 'k
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2015-03-28T07:00:19Z alpha-: javascript will be dead in a couple years
2015-03-28T07:00:34Z Rojstti: alpha-: killed by Rust?
2015-03-28T07:00:47Z Zhivago: javascript is the next C.
2015-03-28T07:00:49Z beach: I suppose SBCL and CCL are the two most common free implementations of Common Lisp.  I know SBCL generates native code, and I assume CCL does too.
2015-03-28T07:00:52Z alpha-: killed by next boring fad by next bunch of talentless people
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2015-03-28T07:03:52Z [6502]: Yo... is it allowed to access a flet/labels in the body of a macrolet?
2015-03-28T07:04:14Z Zhivago: What does access mean?
2015-03-28T07:04:19Z [6502]: call
2015-03-28T07:04:49Z Zhivago: Providing that you have a suitable reference to one ...
2015-03-28T07:04:50Z beach: [6502]: In the expansion code or in the expanded code?
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2015-03-28T07:05:00Z [6502]: in the expansion code i mean...
2015-03-28T07:06:11Z Zhivago: Well, you'd have to capture such a function with a variable and then store it where the macro can see it at expansion time.
2015-03-28T07:06:19Z Zhivago: But why do you want to do this?
2015-03-28T07:06:29Z [6502]: of course lexical bindings cannot be accessed as expansion happens at a different time, but what about a local function (that doesn't access lexical bindings) ?
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2015-03-28T07:07:13Z Zhivago: Providing that you have done the above, since it won't be in scope for the macro expansion ...
2015-03-28T07:07:23Z [6502]: Zhivago: if you need a few macros that depend on common functions... defining local functions inside a single macrolet wouldn't work
2015-03-28T07:07:48Z beach: [6502]: "The macro-expansion functions defined by macrolet are defined in the lexical environment in which the macrolet form appears. Declarations and macrolet and symbol-macrolet definitions affect the local macro definitions in a macrolet, but the consequences are undefined if the local macro definitions reference any local variable or function bindings that are visible in that lexical environment. "
2015-03-28T07:08:19Z [6502]: beach: oh... ok, i missed the "or function bindings"
2015-03-28T07:08:48Z [6502]: there is any technical reason for this limitation?
2015-03-28T07:08:56Z beach: Yes. :)
2015-03-28T07:11:04Z beach: Basically, the definition of the macro is needed in order to compile the form, but if without this limitation you would need to compile the form in order to compute the macro expander.
2015-03-28T07:11:27Z [6502]: hmmm
2015-03-28T07:11:34Z [6502]: true
2015-03-28T07:11:40Z [6502]: an egg and chicken problem
2015-03-28T07:12:40Z beach: ... more often referred to as a "chicken-and-egg problem" :)
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2015-03-28T07:15:24Z [6502]: actually it would be solvable if there are no dependency cycles i.e. macro expander needing a function that doesn't need *that* macro expander is ok
2015-03-28T07:15:32Z [6502]: like it happens at global level
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2015-03-28T07:20:31Z Zhivago: functions don't need macro expanders, so that's easy.
2015-03-28T07:20:52Z Zhivago: A macro is a little compiler from the language with that macro to the language with-or-without that macro.
2015-03-28T07:21:09Z Zhivago: When you've expanded them all, you're left with the base language without macros, which is what functions run on.
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2015-03-28T07:25:49Z Phagus: What's the Lisp equivalent to Ruby's *1..20, which returns a list of all numbers from 1-20?
2015-03-28T07:26:04Z Zhivago: (loop for i from 1 to 20 collecting i)?
2015-03-28T07:26:34Z [6502]: Zhivago: it's easier to write macro expanders if you can use functions :-) ... the limitation I never thought about before is that while you can have local macros those macros cannot be written using local functions.
2015-03-28T07:26:40Z Phagus: Oh cool thanks
2015-03-28T07:26:59Z Zhivago: 6502: Well, you're wrong -- they can be, as I explained above.
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2015-03-28T07:27:46Z [6502]: Zhivago: using globals :-D
2015-03-28T07:28:00Z Zhivago: Using globals that refer to local functions, sure.
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2015-03-28T07:28:47Z [6502]: Zhivago: i thought it was a joke... when would that global be bound? at runtime? that's too late for the macro expander...
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2015-03-28T07:54:56Z Fare: how recently did I last fawn over writing lisp code instead of shell scripts?
2015-03-28T07:56:15Z Fare: wanted to disable/reenable my touchpad, and found an ugly script using grep, sed, and awk
2015-03-28T07:56:37Z Fare: so much cleaner as a lisp script
2015-03-28T07:57:29Z Fare: however, the lisp startup + system loading time are making it much slower :-/
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2015-03-28T08:01:19Z joga: heh a couple of days ago I wrote a script/tool and decided against doing it in bash, opted for python instead and was happy I did... old habits die hard
2015-03-28T08:01:42Z joga: just had to google the basics again as I'm no python expert
2015-03-28T08:02:06Z beach: Fare: Do you have a link to the ASDF manual you wrote?  I can only find the one that rpg improved.  The improved one is nicer, but less complete.
2015-03-28T08:02:32Z beach: I mean, I can only find the improved one.
2015-03-28T08:02:42Z Fare: how is it less complete???
2015-03-28T08:02:54Z beach: I think with respect to the object model.
2015-03-28T08:02:59Z beach: At least as I recall.
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2015-03-28T08:05:36Z Fare: beach: you might be confused with the essay I wrote
2015-03-28T08:05:50Z beach: Oh, that's possible.
2015-03-28T08:05:52Z Fare: https://github.com/fare/asdf3-2013/
2015-03-28T08:06:07Z Fare: it's not meant as a manual
2015-03-28T08:06:34Z beach: I know.
2015-03-28T08:06:38Z beach: Thanks for the link.
2015-03-28T08:07:05Z beach: So you think everything from your manual was included in the improved one?
2015-03-28T08:07:21Z Fare: though it + the video walkthrough I did are the closest things to introductions of how to extend asdf
2015-03-28T08:07:57Z Fare: a lot of the material in my essay is not touched in the manual, and the other way around
2015-03-28T08:08:10Z Fare: it would be nice to merge the information, but that's not my baby anymore
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2015-03-28T08:08:22Z beach: Excellent!  Thanks.  I won't need it right away, but occasionally I try to read and understand, with the ultimate goal of writing an extensions later.
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2015-03-28T08:08:35Z Fare: I fix the bugs I wrote (such as the XDG bug today), but don't work on new features or substantial documentation anymore
2015-03-28T08:08:55Z beach: So with respect to the manual, rpg is in charge?
2015-03-28T08:09:31Z Fare: he's in charge in general
2015-03-28T08:09:39Z beach: Got it.
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2015-03-28T08:11:08Z Fare: he's doesn't have time to do much development, but he already is stopping from doing my things, which is great
2015-03-28T08:11:12Z beach: I have this vivid memory of a manual though.  Oh well, memory is weird.
2015-03-28T08:11:20Z Fare: for me and for all those whose toys I break (Xach, notably)
2015-03-28T08:11:31Z Fare: it can be read as a manual
2015-03-28T08:11:41Z Fare: there is an asdf manual, that I contributed a lot to.
2015-03-28T08:11:56Z beach: Do you have a URL for it?
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2015-03-28T08:12:52Z Fare: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/#documentation
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2015-03-28T08:15:28Z beach: That might be it.  Thanks.  Now I think I have all the relevant documents.
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2015-03-28T08:18:25Z oleo: morning
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2015-03-28T08:19:34Z Fare: beach: what's the status of cleavir?
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2015-03-28T08:37:48Z beach: Fare: drmeister uses it to generate code for Clasp.
2015-03-28T08:37:58Z beach: drmeister: Still no optimizations though.
2015-03-28T08:38:03Z beach: Ooops.
2015-03-28T08:38:12Z beach: Fare: Still no optimizations though.
2015-03-28T08:38:40Z beach: Fare: Just inlining, generation of more-or-less backend-independent intermediate code.
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2015-03-28T08:39:46Z beach: Fare: Clasp code generated using Cleavir is apparently 2-3 times as fast as Clasp code generated by the existing Clasp compiler.
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2015-03-28T08:43:42Z beach: Fare: Is that what you needed to know?
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2015-03-28T09:48:31Z drmeister: Hello
2015-03-28T09:48:43Z beach: Hello drmeister
2015-03-28T09:49:20Z drmeister: I'm about to get on a plane at this ungodly hour
2015-03-28T09:50:14Z beach: Sounds bad.
2015-03-28T09:50:59Z drmeister: Just tired. Flying to Canada for a week
2015-03-28T09:51:26Z Fare: even w/o an optimizer, can it generate x86 code?
2015-03-28T09:52:22Z drmeister: I'm wrestling with a ltv problem in defstruct. It's referencing the struct just before its created
2015-03-28T09:52:25Z beach: Fare: Not directly yet, no.  Though drmeister generates such code using the LLVM form Cleavir.
2015-03-28T09:52:52Z beach: s/form/from/
2015-03-28T09:53:09Z drmeister: Fare: clasp generates x86 via llvm
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2015-03-28T09:55:38Z drmeister: It's helpful that I have bclasp to compare to.
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2015-03-28T10:44:32Z Zhivago: Macros are expanded at run-time.
2015-03-28T10:44:46Z Zhivago: Or, rather, at the run-time of the compilation.
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2015-03-28T10:57:14Z SAL9000: When using the CXML library to generate XML, is it possible to send "unescaped" text?
2015-03-28T10:57:42Z SAL9000: i.e. I have some HTML markup that I want to insert into the XML as-is, without a wasteful parsing/deparsing cycle
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2015-03-28T11:02:59Z Zhivago: Isn't that what CDATA is for?
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2015-03-28T11:03:25Z SAL9000: Zhivago: I want to send unescaped text. CDATA escapes.
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2015-03-28T11:05:20Z Shinmera: Plump can do it if you generate a fulltext-element.
2015-03-28T11:05:39Z Shinmera: But since you're already using CXML I doubt you'd want to switch over now.
2015-03-28T11:05:55Z SAL9000: I haven't invested that much in CXML and I'm already using plump in another probject
2015-03-28T11:05:56Z SAL9000: project*
2015-03-28T11:06:02Z Shinmera: Ah.
2015-03-28T11:06:03Z SAL9000: can plump be used to generate XML as well as XHTML?
2015-03-28T11:06:24Z Shinmera: It just dumps things according to XML rules (as far as I'm aware) so it should.
2015-03-28T11:06:47Z Shinmera: Just need to add in an xml-header element into the root.
2015-03-28T11:07:33Z Shinmera: I haven't really done much in terms of generation myself, I mostly use it for parsing/modifying/outputting templates, but https://github.com/Shinmera/plump-sexp might be useful for generation.
2015-03-28T11:08:20Z SAL9000: that can't do fulltext's though, can it?
2015-03-28T11:08:35Z Shinmera: Yeah I haven't extended it for those kinds of elements.
2015-03-28T11:09:18Z Shinmera: What do you do to generate things now with CXML? Just DOM commands?
2015-03-28T11:09:44Z SAL9000: (with-element) and friends
2015-03-28T11:10:20Z Shinmera: Ah. Well, you could make a thin wrapper around the various MAKE-* forms in plump-dom.
2015-03-28T11:10:36Z SAL9000: I'm writing a library which generates EPUBs, so I need to wrap HTML in XHTML as well as generate XML for the indexes and things
2015-03-28T11:10:57Z Shinmera: I see.
2015-03-28T11:10:59Z SAL9000: by the way, I recently found a website which breaks plump parsing
2015-03-28T11:11:07Z Shinmera: Oh! Do tell!
2015-03-28T11:11:13Z Shinmera: How does it break?
2015-03-28T11:11:36Z SAL9000: well, the DOM doesn't match Firefox's DOM in certain places
2015-03-28T11:12:12Z Shinmera: Plump doesn't adhere to the HTML5 specification for correcting errors, so things can turn up different.
2015-03-28T11:12:24Z SAL9000: there's a normal <table> which plump seems to parse as having TRs inside TRs
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2015-03-28T11:13:14Z Shinmera: Can you send me the link/document?
2015-03-28T11:13:17Z SAL9000: http://www.xeno-canto.org/species/Troglodytes-aedon?&view=0&order=appearance
2015-03-28T11:13:41Z SAL9000: the results table is the one that breaks (there's probably other tables used for layout)
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2015-03-28T11:14:25Z Shinmera: Ok, I'll take a look. Thanks for letting me know!
2015-03-28T11:14:53Z SAL9000: by the way, why does lquery require (inline) now?
2015-03-28T11:15:42Z Shinmera: What do you mean?
2015-03-28T11:16:14Z Shinmera: Oh- I see
2015-03-28T11:16:16Z SAL9000: (defun process-with-lquery (thing) (lquery:$ (inline thing) ...))
2015-03-28T11:16:40Z Shinmera: Uuh, let me think. It's been a while since I thought about lQuery internals.
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2015-03-28T11:18:52Z Shinmera: I think it's mostly to avoid ambiguity in cases where it might be interpreted as an lquery function.
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2015-03-28T11:19:16Z SAL9000: ah. I'm mostly using the CSS selectors, so I didn't realise there were functions, too
2015-03-28T11:19:35Z Shinmera: It implements all the jquery dom inspection/manipulation functions, so yeah.
2015-03-28T11:20:05Z Shinmera: If you only want selectors, you can just use plain CLSS.
2015-03-28T11:20:17Z SAL9000: are there any good docs explaining the whole 'streams' business properly?
2015-03-28T11:20:28Z Shinmera: What about streams?
2015-03-28T11:20:30Z SAL9000: I'm not sure if plump-dom:serialize will play nice with cl-zip
2015-03-28T11:21:05Z SAL9000: the latter expects octet-streams according to the docs
2015-03-28T11:21:19Z Shinmera: You'll need to wrap your stream with flexi-streams then.
2015-03-28T11:21:35Z Shinmera: Plump requires a character stream since it doesn't want to concern itself with encodings.
2015-03-28T11:21:44Z Shinmera: There's better libraries for that, like flexi-streams.
2015-03-28T11:21:48Z SAL9000: ah.
2015-03-28T11:23:52Z Shinmera: Hm, indeed, your sample page trips Plump up pretty badly. I'll see what I can do.
2015-03-28T11:24:20Z SAL9000: thanks :)
2015-03-28T11:24:58Z SAL9000: plump+lquery is much easier than DIY traversal functions on sexps *shudder*
2015-03-28T11:25:37Z Shinmera: Looks like they didn't close an <a>.
2015-03-28T11:25:55Z Shinmera: Which causes plump to just happily gobble up further until it can either close it or reaches the end.
2015-03-28T11:26:06Z Shinmera: So yeah. Invalid markup.
2015-03-28T11:26:21Z SAL9000: silly ornitologists
2015-03-28T11:26:51Z SAL9000: do you believe that's "correct" behaviour for such cases of bad markup?
2015-03-28T11:27:28Z Shinmera: It is a possible interpretation of such bad markup, but not the one that a user would expect.
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2015-03-28T11:28:05Z Shinmera: The problem is on line 334, the <a href="/233124"> is never closed.
2015-03-28T11:28:32Z Shinmera: There might be more, of course.
2015-03-28T11:29:31Z Shinmera: The solution I'm using is a very easy one to take and requires no additional overhead. The more accurate one requires keeping an explicit stack of all currently open tags and scan those on an unexpected tag. If a next one is then found, it needs to unwind the proper number of times.
2015-03-28T11:29:46Z Shinmera: *unexpected closing tag
2015-03-28T11:30:16Z Shinmera: I'll write myself a todo to implement a better strategy, but I won't get to it right now.
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2015-03-28T11:31:42Z Shinmera: Mostly because messing with parser algorithms usually does not lead to a good time :)
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2015-03-28T11:33:21Z SAL9000: Shinmera: I can understand that. I did end up solving the issue by using cl-http-parse and (defun search-for-elt) + a few friends
2015-03-28T11:33:59Z Shinmera is reminded that he wanted to write a converter from various DOMs to Plump too at some point
2015-03-28T11:34:19Z SAL9000: speaking of converters, is there some Lisp equivalent of automatic typecasting?
2015-03-28T11:34:33Z SAL9000: e.g. I want QURI and PURI objects to be interchangeable.
2015-03-28T11:35:09Z Shinmera: There's CHANGE-CLASS, but that might break horribly.
2015-03-28T11:35:13Z Shinmera: Also it's slow.
2015-03-28T11:35:41Z SAL9000: that's more like manual typecasting
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2015-03-28T11:35:52Z SAL9000: I mean defining "conversion operators" in such a way that they are automatically called as necessary
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2015-03-28T11:38:12Z Shinmera: That sounds more like weak typing.
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2015-03-28T11:39:10Z SAL9000: it would be similar to that, yes
2015-03-28T11:39:59Z Shinmera: CL is strongly typed though.
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2015-03-28T11:43:05Z SAL9000: Shinmera: http://paste.lisp.org/+352X
2015-03-28T11:44:43Z Shinmera curses himself for not making a mixin.
2015-03-28T11:45:13Z SAL9000: Shinmera: works if I define the attributes before construction via make-attribute-map
2015-03-28T11:45:14Z Shinmera: I don't even know why that's a generic function tbh.
2015-03-28T11:45:43Z Shinmera: Yes, (setf attribute) is a gf with only one method specialised on element, which doctype is not a subclass of.
2015-03-28T11:45:53Z Shinmera: Idk why it's a GF though, so I'll just change it to a regular function.
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2015-03-28T11:50:13Z Shinmera: Ok, fix for that is in.
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2015-03-28T11:53:42Z malice: Hello, I'd like to increment character(in C/C++, I would just add 1 to character, since underneath it's just a number). I tried incf to get next char(e.g. from #\a to #\b), but + only works with numbers.
2015-03-28T11:53:47Z malice: How can I achieve this?
2015-03-28T11:54:47Z jackdaniel: malice: (code-char (1+ (char-code #\a))
2015-03-28T11:54:52Z jackdaniel: )
2015-03-28T11:55:06Z Shinmera: Depending on how crazy your implementation is however, this could not return what you think it would.
2015-03-28T11:55:13Z Shinmera: *this might not
2015-03-28T11:55:48Z malice: Gonna try it now.
2015-03-28T11:56:35Z jackdaniel: didn't know it's implementation-dependant
2015-03-28T11:56:39Z malice: Kind of works. Thanks.
2015-03-28T11:57:04Z jackdaniel: but indeed, clhs doesn't say it must be ansi
2015-03-28T11:57:13Z jackdaniel: s/ansi/ascii/
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2015-03-28T11:57:57Z Shinmera: Not only implementation-dependant, but also system-dependant.
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2015-03-28T11:58:17Z Shinmera: Some implementations switch their default character encoding according to the underlying OS settings.
2015-03-28T11:58:39Z jackdaniel: yes, ecl does that often on windows
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2015-03-28T12:07:05Z beach: What should this form return: (let ((x 10) (y (list 20))) (rotatef x (car (progn (incf x) y))) (list x y)) ?
2015-03-28T12:07:40Z beach: The question is whether the first place is read before the sub-form of the second place is evaluated.
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2015-03-28T12:13:55Z Zhivago: Note that 'a' + 1 is not required to be 'b' in C/C++.
2015-03-28T12:14:18Z Zhivago: So you're operating from a false premise there. :)
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2015-03-28T12:15:21Z jackdaniel: beach: basing on my clhs understanding they are read from left to right
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2015-03-28T12:16:39Z ggole: sbcl (at least, my ancient version) doesn't seem to obey that
2015-03-28T12:17:09Z beach: jackdaniel: Sure.  The question is whether the first PLACE is read before the SUB-FORM of the second place is evaluated.
2015-03-28T12:18:02Z beach: I understand that all the sub-forms are evaluated left-to-right and I understand that all the places are read left-to-right, but that's not the question here.
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2015-03-28T12:20:12Z ggole: It seems wrong that the effect would happen before x is read, but I can't actually back that up
2015-03-28T12:21:03Z beach: ggole: I have a reasonable explanation as to why SBCL does it that way, but I still don't know whether it is right or wrong.
2015-03-28T12:21:41Z ggole: Oh?
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2015-03-28T12:23:41Z beach: Hmm, let me think about that some more before I say anything.
2015-03-28T12:25:42Z beach: I think it has to do with the way that they compute the expansion.  They use the store variables of place n in a MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND where the form is the access-form of place n+1.
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2015-03-28T12:26:55Z beach: Maybe not a very good explanation.  Anyway, I think it is wrong, so I am going to try to do it differently.
2015-03-28T12:27:51Z ggole: You think the SBCL behaviour is wrong?
2015-03-28T12:28:07Z SAL9000: Any streams wizards here? The following code results in a zip file with an empty file inside it, rather than the data expected: http://paste.lisp.org/+352Y
2015-03-28T12:28:42Z beach: ggole: Probably so.  I think it should read place n before evaluating the sub-forms of place n+1.
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2015-03-28T12:29:03Z ggole: That's what I would expect too.
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2015-03-28T12:30:14Z beach vanishes to go think about this.
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2015-03-28T12:32:04Z myrkraverk: Is there a generic "let's try to convert this to string function" apart from (format nil "~A") ?
2015-03-28T12:32:35Z Shinmera: SAL9000: No output flush?
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2015-03-28T12:32:40Z SAL9000: myrkraverk: if you're looking to define a stringification for your class, take a look at the generic function PRINT-OBJECT
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2015-03-28T12:33:22Z SAL9000: Shinmera: good catch. How to do that?
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2015-03-28T12:33:37Z myrkraverk: SAL9000, no, I'm just implementing a ~/.pgpass parser, and don't want to care if the port number is passed in as string or integer.
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2015-03-28T12:34:04Z SAL9000: myrkraverk: (etypecase thing (integer thing) (string (parse-integer thing)))
2015-03-28T12:34:06Z Shinmera: clhs finish-output
2015-03-28T12:34:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm
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2015-03-28T12:34:29Z Shinmera: clhs write-to-string
2015-03-28T12:34:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_to_.htm
2015-03-28T12:34:32Z Shinmera: myrkraverk: ^
2015-03-28T12:34:41Z myrkraverk: Thank you.
2015-03-28T12:35:04Z SAL9000: Shinmera: added finish-output write-data, for both f-stream and the-stream, no change
2015-03-28T12:35:14Z SAL9000: finish-output after write-data*
2015-03-28T12:36:10Z Shinmera: I don't know the ZIP API, but don't you need two separate streams for the output and input?
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2015-03-28T12:36:40Z SAL9000: I have an :io stream for the temporary file, and a weird ZIP-specific output stream for zip output
2015-03-28T12:36:57Z SAL9000: for some reason, ZIP demands a FILE-STREAM rather than a STREAM, so I can't just use in-memory flexi-streams
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2015-03-28T12:38:16Z SAL9000: Shinmera: fixed. I had to reset the position after finish-output.
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2015-03-28T12:38:41Z Shinmera: Sounds reasonable.
2015-03-28T12:38:57Z SAL9000: apprently even flush-output isn't needed if I reset the position of the-stream
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2015-03-28T12:59:15Z Shinmera: SAL9000: Re your question yesterday  for a CSS parser: I haven't done it /yet/, but a translator for CSS -> LASS is another thing that's on my todo.
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2015-03-28T13:04:53Z myrkraverk: I ended up with plain (typecase b (string b) (t (write-to-string b))) ; because I don't really care if it matches or not in the case of neither string nor int.
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2015-03-28T13:06:53Z Zhivago: Why not just have write-to-string handle strings trivially, and reduce it to (write-to-string b)?
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2015-03-28T13:08:04Z myrkraverk: Zhivago, because, for some reason, that makes string= fail; at least in my tests.
2015-03-28T13:08:16Z Shinmera: write-to-string on a string would add in quotes and escaping. If anything it should be princ-to-string.
2015-03-28T13:09:04Z Shinmera: (string= "foo" (princ-to-string "foo")) => T (string= "foo" (write-to-string "foo")) => NIL
2015-03-28T13:09:14Z myrkraverk: Ok, I'll try that.
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2015-03-28T13:10:25Z myrkraverk: Yes, that works.  Thank you.
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2015-03-28T13:13:27Z brian_o: help (you know, if you want to...). i've been making a lot of non-common-lisp changes to emacs, and now indentation doesn't seem to be fully working anymore
2015-03-28T13:14:05Z brian_o: for example, it no longer indents the body of flet or labels properly
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2015-03-28T13:17:00Z pjb: beach: it looks like multics emacs was as much written in PL/1 as GNU emacs is written in C:  bound_multics_emacs_.s.archive contains files with the folowing types: 4 alm, 1 cds, 1 lap, 10 lisp, 14 pl1, 1 txt
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2015-03-28T13:20:58Z myrkraverk: I've been working on an XEmacs extension, in C, lately.
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2015-03-28T13:28:20Z pjb: beach: http://paste.lisp.org/+352Z (there are 4 more archives containing more lisp code for multics emacs, but as with emacs, they seem to be user code, not core emacs sources).
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2015-03-28T13:33:39Z myrkraverk: Is there a "the website" for Common Lisp?
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2015-03-28T13:33:58Z myrkraverk: As in, something that's natural to link to, with the words Common Lisp on my blog?
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2015-03-28T13:35:09Z pjb: myrkraverk: there's http://cliki.net/ when it's not down. There's also http://common-lisp.net/ when it's not migrating.
2015-03-28T13:35:22Z pjb: myrkraverk: you can always link to wikipedia.
2015-03-28T13:35:33Z myrkraverk: Ah, right.
2015-03-28T13:35:38Z myrkraverk: I'll just link to WP then c;
2015-03-28T13:35:44Z pjb: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp is not too bad.
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2015-03-28T13:38:13Z myrkraverk: I'm also linking to http://www.cliki.net/split-sequence
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2015-03-28T14:04:28Z beach: pjb: Interesting.  I didn't think there was that much PL/I in it.
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2015-03-28T14:08:11Z myrkraverk: http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/2015/03/postgresqls-pgpass-parser-in-common-lisp/
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2015-03-28T14:10:56Z myrkraverk: dim, ^^^^^ from our earlier discussion.
2015-03-28T14:11:55Z pjb: beach: seems to be mostly low level stuff (file access, terminal drivers, etc).
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2015-03-28T14:13:32Z myrkraverk: pjb, do you have some/any/many of the extensions people wrote?
2015-03-28T14:13:47Z beach: pjb: I see.
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2015-03-28T14:17:40Z drmeister: beach: Hello - I'm running into a problem with top-level forms in Cleavir I have a top-level EVAL-WHEN that is not treating its subforms as top-level forms.
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2015-03-28T14:17:48Z drmeister: This is what I'm compiling:   http://paste.lisp.org/display/146557
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2015-03-28T14:18:35Z beach: What is the value of *COMPILER*?
2015-03-28T14:18:53Z drmeister: I'll check
2015-03-28T14:19:12Z drmeister: When I call cleavir-generate-ast:generate-ast  is top-level form processing done on the form or should I already have done it?
2015-03-28T14:19:45Z pjb: beach: that said, buffers are implemented entirely in lisp, so one may consider that it's indeed mostly implemented in lisp.  That's actually very funny: a bunch of global variables, that are saved on the property list of the buffer name (a symbol) when switching to another buffer.
2015-03-28T14:20:30Z drmeister: beach: I'm setting it to cl:compile-file - but i'll have to check what it is when generate-ast is called
2015-03-28T14:21:40Z beach: drmeister: It is supposed to be done by Cleavir, provided that *compiler* is CL:COMPILE-FILE.  Otherwise, forms are not top-level.
2015-03-28T14:21:56Z beach: I need to vanish for a while.  Grocery delivery just came.
2015-03-28T14:23:39Z drmeister: No problem. Talk later.
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2015-03-28T14:43:03Z beach: pjb: Yeah, old coding style.
2015-03-28T14:43:14Z beach: drmeister: So, what's the verdict?
2015-03-28T14:45:28Z beach: drmeister: You probably should bind it rather than set it.
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2015-03-28T14:48:30Z beach: drmeister: It works here.
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2015-03-28T14:54:44Z beach: pjb: Are you looking at the code for Multics Emacs?
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2015-03-28T14:57:39Z myrkraverk: I just read the paper on Multics Emacs.
2015-03-28T14:57:50Z myrkraverk: (But it's been a while, and I don't have it here)
2015-03-28T14:59:13Z beach: drmeister: Still around?
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2015-03-28T15:00:45Z beach: myrkraverk: It was a great editor for a great OS.
2015-03-28T15:01:05Z myrkraverk: Yeah, I take I got that from the paper.
2015-03-28T15:01:20Z myrkraverk: The project even tweaked the terminal driver in the kernel.
2015-03-28T15:01:46Z beach: I believe they reprogrammed the front-end computer for Emacs as well.
2015-03-28T15:02:00Z myrkraverk: Oh, nice.
2015-03-28T15:02:37Z beach: The GE645 had (I think several) front-end computers for handling I/O so that the CPU didn't have to be interrupted for each character.
2015-03-28T15:03:34Z myrkraverk: Right, I remember something about that, but since I never saw the hardware, I didn't grok it.
2015-03-28T15:03:35Z beach: I should have said "CPUs", because there were typically several.  I think we had 8 where I worked.
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2015-03-28T15:47:01Z emaczen: how can I get the equivalent of the unicode symbol "\u2660"?
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2015-03-28T16:24:17Z schoppenhauer: hi. is anyone here using nixos?
2015-03-28T16:24:20Z schoppenhauer: and cffi?
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2015-03-28T16:29:32Z RenRenJuan: i used it for 3+ years
2015-03-28T16:29:40Z RenRenJuan: got over/tired of it
2015-03-28T16:29:48Z RenRenJuan: it's pretty pointless
2015-03-28T16:30:01Z RenRenJuan: an academic hobby horse in effect
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2015-03-28T16:30:05Z jackdaniel: cffi or nixos? ;p
2015-03-28T16:30:14Z RenRenJuan: they're unrelated
2015-03-28T16:30:28Z RenRenJuan: nix is a pkg mgr
2015-03-28T16:30:33Z jackdaniel: i know
2015-03-28T16:30:40Z RenRenJuan: nixos the non-lsb linux distro based on it
2015-03-28T16:30:40Z jackdaniel: question was about both
2015-03-28T16:30:54Z jackdaniel: and guix built on top of nix package manager
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2015-03-28T16:31:07Z RenRenJuan: they do have a channel here
2015-03-28T16:31:14Z RenRenJuan: or someplace but here I think
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2015-03-28T16:31:55Z RenRenJuan: obviously I meant nixos not cffi
2015-03-28T16:32:07Z jackdaniel: im pretty sure schoppenhauer had question related to cffi and nixos
2015-03-28T16:32:20Z jackdaniel: not nixos per se
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2015-03-28T16:33:51Z schoppenhauer: indeed.
2015-03-28T16:34:05Z RenRenJuan: also take it you mean cffi in some lisp implementation, it's a generic thing, e.g. swig and many others
2015-03-28T16:35:04Z schoppenhauer: I installed cffi via quicklisp. but cffi does not find foreign libraries, even though they are in the path and they are found by dlopen and I explicitly put their path into cffi:*foreign-library-directories*
2015-03-28T16:35:06Z RenRenJuan: generally the nix/nixos distribution of a package is unchanged except for the nix packaging
2015-03-28T16:35:50Z RenRenJuan: which when I was using it implied about 20-30% probability of some breakage
2015-03-28T16:36:20Z RenRenJuan: high if it was a thing with an ecosystem of it's own, a pkging scheme that collided with nix
2015-03-28T16:36:23Z jackdaniel: schoppenhauer: have you checked if same code works on non-nixos linux?
2015-03-28T16:36:28Z RenRenJuan: *higher
2015-03-28T16:36:50Z schoppenhauer: hm. btw, I'd be cautious telling something a pointless academic hobby horse. I have heard people saying similar things about lisp.
2015-03-28T16:36:52Z schoppenhauer: jackdaniel: yes
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2015-03-28T16:37:34Z RenRenJuan: in fairness haven't used in a few years but it's unlikely it's changed
2015-03-28T16:37:37Z jackdaniel: maybe invoke your emacs/lisp with LD_LIBRARY_PATH pointing to exact directory?
2015-03-28T16:37:53Z schoppenhauer: did that
2015-03-28T16:37:57Z schoppenhauer: didn't work
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2015-03-28T16:38:23Z jackdaniel: then I'm out of ideas, sorry
2015-03-28T16:39:10Z schoppenhauer: same here :/
2015-03-28T16:40:59Z RenRenJuan: the charge against lisp would be idiotic
2015-03-28T16:41:07Z RenRenJuan: they're utterly different things
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2015-03-28T16:41:45Z schoppenhauer: hm?
2015-03-28T16:42:17Z schoppenhauer: for many people, lisp is just academic bs that has nothing to do with reality.
2015-03-28T16:42:35Z RenRenJuan: i've never heard that in decades of experience
2015-03-28T16:43:25Z schoppenhauer: maybe you are living in a special reality bubble :3
2015-03-28T16:43:31Z jackdaniel: can i use #s(...) abberv in function? i have problems with this (http://ix.io/haX/common-lisp)
2015-03-28T16:44:30Z jackdaniel: same construct from repl works tough
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2015-03-28T16:45:02Z RenRenJuan: schoppenhauer, something like that, from your perspective, must be the case
2015-03-28T16:45:56Z schoppenhauer: anyway. I'm using nixos. and I'm trying to use cffi. but for some reason it doesnt work and I dont really have a clue.
2015-03-28T16:46:30Z jackdaniel: what is an error?
2015-03-28T16:46:38Z jackdaniel: what is your lisp implementation?
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2015-03-28T16:47:48Z jackdaniel: and more on mine problem: (make-*xxx*) from function works as well
2015-03-28T16:47:57Z jackdaniel: even from inside a function
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2015-03-28T16:48:52Z schoppenhauer: implementation is sbcl. the error is that it cant find the library.
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2015-03-28T16:50:44Z jackdaniel: maybe there is some symlink magic and path doesn't follow?
2015-03-28T16:52:41Z schoppenhauer: hm. but I put the exact path in
2015-03-28T16:53:19Z jackdaniel: and this path doesn't have symlink on the road?
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2015-03-28T16:54:18Z pjb: *xxx* notation is reserved by convention for special variables.  It would be better if you avoided using it for anything else.
2015-03-28T16:54:59Z jackdaniel: pjb: i put *xxx* in scratch, but original snippet doesn't use such convention
2015-03-28T16:56:48Z pjb: they don't show us misleading stuff if you want to be helped!
2015-03-28T16:56:51Z pjb: then
2015-03-28T16:57:25Z jackdaniel: sorry if i mislead you with this, it surely wasn't my intention
2015-03-28T16:57:45Z pjb: Now, saving #S to fasl files works only with clisp and sbcl.  Perhaps it's not conforming.
2015-03-28T16:59:09Z jackdaniel: hmm, with different message, but it doesn't work on at least ecl and sbcl
2015-03-28T16:59:16Z pjb: Even with load-time-value it won't work.
2015-03-28T16:59:28Z pjb: clhs #S
2015-03-28T16:59:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhm.htm
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2015-03-28T17:03:23Z pjb: clhs make-load-form
2015-03-28T17:03:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ld_.htm
2015-03-28T17:03:27Z pjb: says: "The methods specialized on standard-object, structure-object, and condition all signal an error of type error."
2015-03-28T17:03:46Z pjb: So it seems that you have to provide your own load form if you want to do that.
2015-03-28T17:03:59Z jackdaniel: thanks
2015-03-28T17:07:51Z pjb: jackdaniel: if you don't have hundred of occurences of such compile-time -> run-time structures to transmit, using merely: (load-time-value (make-xxx :… …))  ; would let you do it without defining the make-load-form method.
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2015-03-28T17:14:26Z jackdaniel: mhm
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2015-03-28T18:03:45Z jackdaniel: uff, 600km further in space, in time that would be 13h and I'm in przemyśl once again :-)
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2015-03-28T18:10:43Z Fare: hi
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2015-03-28T19:32:50Z faheem_: Does anyone know of a CL equivalent to the 'filecontents' LaTeX package? This writes some text to a file.
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2015-03-28T19:36:09Z faheem_: I guess I can just do a file write which replaces the existing contents.
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2015-03-28T20:21:11Z faheem_: according to PCL, the T argument to format sends to standard output, but the CLHS entry is coy about this: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/f_format.htm
2015-03-28T20:21:18Z faheem_: Am I missing something here?
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2015-03-28T20:24:00Z Bike: it's http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/26_glo_s.htm#stream_designator
2015-03-28T20:24:06Z Bike: which should really be mentioned on format's page.
2015-03-28T20:24:23Z Bike: actually, i suppose it isn't that
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2015-03-28T20:35:30Z faheem_: Bike: well, destination isn't a stream designator. it's just some parameter.
2015-03-28T20:35:42Z faheem_: afaict
2015-03-28T20:36:17Z Bike: yeah, it doesn't match the stream designator semantics
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2015-03-28T20:55:28Z pjb: faheem_: have a look at the com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file package.
2015-03-28T20:56:07Z faheem_: pjb: is it on quicklisp?
2015-03-28T20:56:16Z pjb: Yes
2015-03-28T20:56:24Z faheem_: pjb: ok. what name?
2015-03-28T20:56:35Z pjb: faheem_: for example: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum) (setf (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:text-file-contents "/tmp/exemple" :if-does-not-exist :create :if-exists :supersede) "Hello world")
2015-03-28T20:56:56Z faheem_: pjb: ok, I'll try that. Thank you.
2015-03-28T20:57:05Z pjb: there are other variants.
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2015-03-28T20:59:39Z faheem_: pjb: ok
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2015-03-28T21:01:53Z JokesOnYou77: Hi all.
2015-03-28T21:03:06Z pjb: Hi one.
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2015-03-28T21:04:46Z pjb: Now, funny thing: (define-symbol-macro exemple (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:text-file-contents "/tmp/exemple"
2015-03-28T21:04:46Z pjb: :if-does-not-exist :create :if-exists :supersede))
2015-03-28T21:04:55Z pjb: (setf exemple "hello") exemple --> "hello"
2015-03-28T21:05:50Z pjb: ie. you can have persistent variables :-)
2015-03-28T21:06:09Z pjb: (not efficient, but persistent).
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2015-03-28T21:12:50Z JokesOnYou77: ((not efficient) (but persistent))
2015-03-28T21:15:37Z Quadrescence: (adjectival-clause (contrasting-conjunction (logically-negate (meaning-of 'EFFICIENT)) (meaning-of 'PERSISTENT)))
2015-03-28T21:17:04Z JokesOnYou77: (ROOT (FRAG  (ADJP (ADJP (RB not) (VBN efficient))  (, ,)  (CC but)  (ADJP (JJ persistent))) (. .)))
2015-03-28T21:17:40Z Quadrescence: That is of course a syntactic deconstruction, but I find my semantic deconstruction slightly more valuable. ;)
2015-03-28T21:17:54Z pjb: What's the probability that Watson is only a bunch of indian employees googling at 100 mph?
2015-03-28T21:18:42Z Quadrescence: Yes     67%
2015-03-28T21:18:48Z Quadrescence: No      23%
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2015-03-28T21:19:03Z Quadrescence: Maybe   10%
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2015-03-28T21:22:50Z faheem_: pjb: Watson?
2015-03-28T21:23:14Z pjb: IBM's AI.
2015-03-28T21:23:25Z JokesOnYou77: Quadrescence, Did you get the paper I linked to you on implamenting list-comprehension?  It was a good read.
2015-03-28T21:23:47Z Quadrescence: No I didn't. Can you link it again?
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2015-03-28T21:25:17Z JokesOnYou77: Sec, trying to find it :P
2015-03-28T21:25:48Z JokesOnYou77: Cached version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:HZZSMlsxXLMJ:www.ai.sri.com/~latendre/listCompFinal.pdf+&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
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2015-03-28T21:27:23Z Quadrescence: JokesOnYou77, looks like the fundamental idea is to just try to turn it into a bunch of loops and jumps. :)
2015-03-28T21:27:46Z JokesOnYou77: yep.  It's so elegant.  It's about 12 lines, and it's FAST
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2015-03-28T21:28:37Z Quadrescence: But then you face the next "problem" which is that while it might be fast at generating lists, most people aren't actually interested in using that list for its data structural properties, but rather for its simple containment of items
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2015-03-28T21:28:49Z faheem_: Ok, i've just got to ask, why do the arguments for with-open-file appear only on the CLHS page for OPEN?
2015-03-28T21:28:53Z Quadrescence: in other words, many just want to process those list items and not actually us the list.
2015-03-28T21:29:09Z Quadrescence: faheem_, so they're not repeated everywhere?
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2015-03-28T21:31:43Z JokesOnYou77: Dropped out there for a second, sorry.
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2015-03-28T21:31:52Z Quadrescence: At the cost of one click, we have saved tons of copied verbiage.
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2015-03-28T21:32:41Z JokesOnYou77: Quadrescence, isn't this just non-destructive processing?  This performs a transformation on an entire domain and then returns a list with that transformed data
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2015-03-28T21:33:06Z pjb: faheem_: what's terrible with repeating them, is that there may be inconsistencies introduced by bad copy-pasting.
2015-03-28T21:33:38Z pjb: faheem_: in a specification, inconsistencies are fatal.  There are already enough inconsistencies as it is, it's better not introduce new by duplicating things.
2015-03-28T21:33:49Z faheem_: pjb: fine. well, add a link, maybe? After all, it is called the hyperspec? How about some hyperlinks then?
2015-03-28T21:34:09Z faheem_: Maybe there is one. If so, don't see it.
2015-03-28T21:34:13Z pjb: faheem_: also, you have to realize that the standard has been for a long time, a document in evolution (and this, before cvs or git!)
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2015-03-28T21:34:42Z faheem_: pjb: I thought it was frozen after release. In 1994, wasn't it?
2015-03-28T21:34:42Z pjb: faheem_: we cannot modify the clhs itself because it's not a free document, it's owned and copyrighted by lispworks.
2015-03-28T21:34:49Z faheem_: pjb: ok
2015-03-28T21:34:54Z pjb: faheem_: but you are free to write a new CL language book.
2015-03-28T21:35:04Z faheem_: pjb: that's pretty annoying for a standard document.
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2015-03-28T21:35:10Z pjb: faheem_: yes, once the standard is issued, the document is frozen.
2015-03-28T21:35:20Z faheem_: pjb: not knowing anything about CL might be a slight handicap.
2015-03-28T21:35:27Z pjb: faheem_: it's a good thing: that reserves a market for lisp book authors! :-)
2015-03-28T21:35:51Z Quadrescence: JokesOnYou77, I'm not sure what you mean
2015-03-28T21:36:00Z pjb: faheem_: depends the kind of language learner you are.  Some like to read the specifications and go on from there.  Other learners need more tutorial like introductions.
2015-03-28T21:36:06Z faheem_: I don't understand. Why does Lispworks own the hyperspec? Or do they own the standard? Which would be even weirder.
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2015-03-28T21:36:44Z faheem_: pjb: I'm happy to be tutored. But I couldn't find a description of those keywords/parameters anywhere else. Even PCL doesn't really go into those details.
2015-03-28T21:36:45Z pjb: They own the hyperspec. The standard can be bought as bad photocopies of an old printed PS documented form the ANSI. Not worth it.
2015-03-28T21:36:53Z Quadrescence: DON'T BUY THEM!
2015-03-28T21:37:02Z faheem_: pjb: yuck
2015-03-28T21:37:11Z faheem_: Quadrescence: I won't. Thanks.
2015-03-28T21:37:17Z pjb: Again, it's to motivate lisp book authors :-)
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2015-03-28T21:37:55Z White_Flame: If somebody were to use the same text as the CLHS, but a different structure, would that constitute a copyright violation with LispWorks, ANSI, or both?
2015-03-28T21:37:59Z pjb: faheem_: PAIP has a nice reference.
2015-03-28T21:38:00Z faheem_: Sounds like someone should put together a new and improved reference / tutorial introduction to the standard.
2015-03-28T21:38:18Z faheem_: pjb: Oh, it does? Ok, let me look. Thanks.
2015-03-28T21:38:37Z JokesOnYou77: Quadrescence, I guess, I'm thinking that part of the purpose of list comprehensions is to manipulate existing data and then do something with the result.  If you don't want to build the list, what's the big deal?  Just throw out the return value.
2015-03-28T21:39:13Z Quadrescence: JokesOnYou77, I'm saying that if you're going to go through the trouble of generating a list very efficiently just to throw it out, why bother generating the list?
2015-03-28T21:39:36Z Quadrescence: Why not have a "map comprehension" which instead of building a list, just FUNCALLs a function on the elements that are generated
2015-03-28T21:39:46Z White_Flame: Quadrescence: you mean you'd advocate a "list comprehension result visitor" over having the results in the list?
2015-03-28T21:39:49Z White_Flame: ok
2015-03-28T21:39:50Z Quadrescence: then you can trivially have a list comprehension by using a function which pushes an element on the list
2015-03-28T21:39:57Z Quadrescence: White_Flame, yes
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2015-03-28T21:40:49Z pjb: faheem_: well, sorry, it's a little short on I/O, two pages only.
2015-03-28T21:41:14Z faheem_: pjb: yes, I don't see much about that.
2015-03-28T21:41:17Z White_Flame: methinks there'd be quite a few cases where mapping over a generated list would be faster overall... if the map had the body inline and the visitor did literally have to FUNCALL
2015-03-28T21:41:31Z faheem_: A good book, certainly. But not really about Lisp as such.
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2015-03-28T21:41:45Z pjb: faheem_: as beach advices, write a new reference for one operator per day, and in 2 years and a half you can publish the CL bible :-)
2015-03-28T21:42:02Z JokesOnYou77: I thought you wanted to process it?  It makes the whole thing more versatile.  Then we should have a second function for it I suppose.  But in order to perform the set-building operations, you would still want more-or-less the same form as the list-building algorithm, wouldn't you?
2015-03-28T21:42:22Z faheem_: pjb: I don't see beach. Is he invisible? Is he hiding?
2015-03-28T21:42:36Z Quadrescence: JokesOnYou77, you'd have more or less the same structure yes, you just don't store the results anywhere
2015-03-28T21:42:37Z pjb: He comes in the morning (France).
2015-03-28T21:42:47Z Quadrescence: you just call a function on the results as they are generated
2015-03-28T21:42:51Z faheem_: pjb: oh. this is from an earlier conversation?
2015-03-28T21:43:01Z pjb: yes
2015-03-28T21:43:11Z JokesOnYou77: that makes sense
2015-03-28T21:43:13Z faheem_: Seems like something that could be crowdsourced.
2015-03-28T21:43:23Z Quadrescence: White_Flame, Since the comprehension is a macro, you could do a few tricks to inline it and whatever
2015-03-28T21:43:31Z pjb: that's also a possibility.  But you need to keep the momentum.
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2015-03-28T21:43:47Z faheem_: If there are any Mercurial users in this channel, when you do `hg help glossary`, that was me.
2015-03-28T21:43:56Z pjb: perhaps, initializing a wiki, and letting people edit it and comment it.
2015-03-28T21:44:20Z faheem_: I spent two weeks on #mercurial coaxing people to write definitions for terms. They were sulky but they did it.
2015-03-28T21:44:30Z pjb: Nice.
2015-03-28T21:44:35Z faheem_: Hackers don't like writing text. They think it is below them or something.
2015-03-28T21:44:49Z faheem_: pjb: yes, maybe a wiki.
2015-03-28T21:45:02Z faheem_: Actually, surprised that doesn't already exist.
2015-03-28T21:45:29Z pjb: I like typing on a keyboard. Sometimes I just input digitize documents by hand :-)
2015-03-28T21:46:02Z pjb: I know no wiki that allows me to create pages programmatically (unless I'm the wiki manager).
2015-03-28T21:46:14Z pjb: Are there wikis with APIs?
2015-03-28T21:46:32Z faheem_: pjb: ikiwiki might
2015-03-28T21:46:46Z JokesOnYou77: Macros are all expanded before compile-time i guess?  But what happens if you have a compiled image that can, for example take in instructions to a list-comprehension that will expand into variable-length expressions?
2015-03-28T21:46:57Z pjb: JokesOnYou77: AT compile-tiem.
2015-03-28T21:47:05Z White_Flame: pjb: I've done some old retro computing book preservation that way.  Nice & relaxing
2015-03-28T21:47:14Z pjb: exactly.
2015-03-28T21:47:22Z pjb: and instructive.
2015-03-28T21:47:29Z White_Flame: yeo
2015-03-28T21:47:32Z White_Flame: s/o/p/
2015-03-28T21:47:37Z JokesOnYou77: pjb, oh, didn't know that .
2015-03-28T21:47:49Z faheem_: I was really thinking more of a from scratch description of the standard. using the existing one as a guide, obviously
2015-03-28T21:48:03Z pjb: JokesOnYou77: it's the compiler that calls macroexpand.  Of course, the interpreter does too.
2015-03-28T21:48:05Z faheem_: The existing one is a bit cryptic in places.
2015-03-28T21:48:32Z faheem_: And there are certainly enough experts around who could catch errors/omissions/ambiguity.
2015-03-28T21:48:34Z pjb: At the same time, I'd like to see a formal definition CL.
2015-03-28T21:48:55Z pjb: but really those are big projects.
2015-03-28T21:49:13Z JokesOnYou77: pjb, But the expanded macro becomes compiled, right?
2015-03-28T21:49:14Z faheem_: what is "a formal definition CL"?
2015-03-28T21:49:37Z faheem_: pjb: well, just describing the existing standard is a lot of small tasks.
2015-03-28T21:49:45Z pjb: JokesOnYou77: macroexpansion produces a form that contains only special operators and function calls.  This form is indeed compiled, bythe compiler, or interpreted, by the interpreter.
2015-03-28T21:49:46Z faheem_: easily crowd-sourced.
2015-03-28T21:49:54Z faheem_: in theory, anyway.
2015-03-28T21:50:13Z faheem_: in practice, would probably need a lot of coaxing. cat herding.
2015-03-28T21:50:26Z pjb: faheem_: something like: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/
2015-03-28T21:51:02Z faheem_: pjb: was this a private volunteer effort?
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2015-03-28T21:51:12Z JokesOnYou77: pjb, so what happens if I have a compiled image that lists me pass parameters to a macro, that will result in different kinds of expressions being produced when expanded?  Does the image need an interpreter baked-in?  (Is that why images are so big?)
2015-03-28T21:51:13Z faheem_: Looks pretty good.
2015-03-28T21:51:16Z pjb: This is scheme.
2015-03-28T21:51:49Z faheem_: pjb: yes, I know. Just wondering who wrote it.
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2015-03-28T21:52:01Z pjb: JokesOnYou77: you have a problem. Macro are expanded at compilation time.  They cannot be used to process any run-time data.
2015-03-28T21:52:09Z pjb: Run-time data must be processed by functions.
2015-03-28T21:52:42Z pjb: faheem_: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-3.html#%_sec_Temp_5
2015-03-28T21:52:59Z pjb: JokesOnYou77: I don't understand your problem.
2015-03-28T21:53:09Z JokesOnYou77: But...hmmm, I feel like it wouldn't be too difficult to do what I'm describing.
2015-03-28T21:53:25Z JokesOnYou77: It's not a problem so much as a confusion or misunderstanding.
2015-03-28T21:54:09Z pjb: JokesOnYou77: if you read expressions at run-time, written in a DSL, and evaluate them at run-time, then they may contain macro that will be expanded by eval.  Also you can call compile at run-time too.
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2015-03-28T21:55:08Z JokesOnYou77: pjb, Ok, that makes sense.  So an image can call EVAL at runtime if needed.
2015-03-28T21:56:02Z pjb: yes.
2015-03-28T21:56:16Z JokesOnYou77: Cool
2015-03-28T21:56:25Z pjb: When you implement a REPL.
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2015-03-28T22:00:09Z pjb: faheem_: so, what's specially interesting in a formal specification, is the semantic equations: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-10.html#%_sec_7.2.3
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2015-03-28T22:00:43Z pjb: faheem_: they allow to verify formally the conformity of an implementation, or to _generate_ an implementation!
2015-03-28T22:01:30Z pjb: also, this is the level at which you'd want to work to integrate things like threads in the language, in a safe (ie. consistent) way.
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2015-03-28T22:11:42Z drmeister: When do load-time-values get evaluated at load-time?   I figure it is immediately before the top-level form that uses them.
2015-03-28T22:12:54Z pjb: drmeister: AFAIR it's not precisely specified. During the call of LOAD.
2015-03-28T22:13:32Z pjb: drmeister: I guess you could have some initialization code run  at the end of loading the fasl.  Or you could perhaps run the initialization while loading the fasl, between each object loaded?
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2015-03-28T22:14:14Z drmeister: It's tricky.   When I compile (DEFSTRUCT FOO) with Cleavir I can't load the resulting FASL because it expands as:
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2015-03-28T22:15:28Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146568
2015-03-28T22:16:28Z drmeister: Either I am doing something wrong or there is an error in how Cleavir deals with it.  The (LOAD-TIME-VALUE (FIND-CLASS 'FOO)) gets evaluated before the DEFINE-STRUCTURE.
2015-03-28T22:16:30Z pjb: drmeister: I mean, there you would have a file specifing the call to core::define-structure.  then the definition of a make-foo function.
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2015-03-28T22:17:11Z pjb: drmeister:  this function has some literal object in.  You could define it first by evaluating load-time-value.  Or you could have a place holder and update  it at the end of the file.
2015-03-28T22:17:38Z faheem_: pjb: I see. That's way beyond anything I would consider participating in
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2015-03-28T22:18:07Z pjb: drmeister:  however, since there are those eval-when operators, it may be easier to do the former, ie. to run load-time-values when they are needed, so that a function defined in an eval-when is immediately available while loading the rest of the file.
2015-03-28T22:18:48Z pjb: faheem_: of course, a user-friendly textual specification with cross references and self-sufficient pages would be nice too.
2015-03-28T22:19:36Z pjb: faheem_: but clearly, it's a two man.year effort at least, so even with a team, it's a considerable effort.
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2015-03-28T22:20:38Z pjb: drmeister: you can generate load-time-value using intermediary variables.
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2015-03-28T22:21:44Z pjb: drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/+353C/1
2015-03-28T22:21:48Z drmeister: Here's what the bootstrapping compiler of Clasp and then Cleavir effectively transform it into:
2015-03-28T22:21:58Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146569
2015-03-28T22:22:22Z pjb: Yes, but you need to keep the order.
2015-03-28T22:22:51Z pjb: clasp is correct, cleavir not.
2015-03-28T22:23:31Z drmeister: Well, it seems to me that Cleavir is treating the body of the eval-when as one top-level form and my code hoists the load-time-value so that it is evaluated just before anything within the body of the eval-when.
2015-03-28T22:24:05Z pjb: drmeister: this is not correct. Like progn, eval-when keeps the toplevelness of the subforms.
2015-03-28T22:24:14Z pjb: So it should maintain the order.
2015-03-28T22:24:50Z pjb: (e-w (…) a b c) == (e-w (…) a) (e-w (…) b) (e-w (…) c)
2015-03-28T22:25:14Z faheem_: Shouldn't the following replace the existing file? It doesn't.
2015-03-28T22:25:19Z faheem_: (with-open-file (stream "name.txt" :direction :output :if-exists :overwrite)
2015-03-28T22:25:19Z faheem_:   (format stream "Some text~%" ))
2015-03-28T22:25:35Z pjb: Use :supersede or :rename or :rename-and-delete to replace it.
2015-03-28T22:25:35Z drmeister: Right - that's the problem that I'm having.
2015-03-28T22:25:43Z pjb: :overwrite doesn't erase old data.
2015-03-28T22:25:57Z faheem_: I'm inclear what the hyperspec is saying about "overwrite".
2015-03-28T22:26:07Z faheem_: Output operations on the stream destructively modify the existing file. If direction is :io the file is opened in a bidirectional mode that allows both reading and writing. The file pointer is initially positioned at the beginning of the file; however, the file is not truncated back to length zero when it is opened.
2015-03-28T22:26:19Z drmeister: I'll have to wait until beach wakes up.  It has to do with the way Cleavir deals with constants and load-time values in forms.
2015-03-28T22:26:23Z faheem_: Clear as mud.
2015-03-28T22:26:31Z pjb: It's very clear: The file pointer is initially positioned at the beginning of the file; however, the file is not truncated back to length zero when it is opened.
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2015-03-28T22:27:08Z faheem_: pjb: if the file pointer is initially positioned at the beginning of the file, isn't that where it would be writing?
2015-03-28T22:27:09Z pjb: You are modifying the file in place. But since there's no truncation if you write less data than in the file, you only modify the beginnning of the file, not the tail.
2015-03-28T22:27:15Z pjb: Yes.
2015-03-28T22:27:29Z faheem_: pjb: oh, I see.
2015-03-28T22:28:18Z faheem_: thank you for the clarification.
2015-03-28T22:28:38Z pjb: :supersede is the most common operation.
2015-03-28T22:28:58Z pjb: Then there's :append with :io, when you want to update a structured file .
2015-03-28T22:29:09Z faheem_: that's actually more options that python has, I think.
2015-03-28T22:29:10Z pjb: or :overwrite with :io.
2015-03-28T22:29:28Z pjb: python tries to simplify things.
2015-03-28T22:29:33Z faheem_: pjb: yes, I see. Must be murder for any aspiring CL implementation.
2015-03-28T22:29:42Z faheem_: pjb: not such a bad idea, probably.
2015-03-28T22:30:06Z faheem_: People still manage to get stuff done.
2015-03-28T22:30:32Z pjb: Not really, since that maps to POSIX stuff quite directly.
2015-03-28T22:34:07Z faheem_: pjb: sorry, don't follow.
2015-03-28T22:34:13Z faheem_: not really what?
2015-03-28T22:34:41Z pjb: not really murder.
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2015-03-28T22:35:23Z faheem_: pjb: oh
2015-03-28T22:35:46Z faheem_: aren't there like a 1000 functions to implement?
2015-03-28T22:36:26Z faheem_: Ok, I take it back. The WITH-OPEN-FILE page says "Options are used as keyword arguments to open."
2015-03-28T22:37:10Z pjb: faheem_: not really.  The standard allows for a lot of simplification.  You can do (setf (symbol-function 'delete) (symbol-function 'remove)) and be done with it.
2015-03-28T22:37:35Z pjb: ie. almost all the non-consing functions can be not implemented, but use the consing in place.
2015-03-28T22:37:48Z pjb: And there are other simplifications possible too.
2015-03-28T22:39:14Z pjb: for example, you can have a single floating point type instead of four.
2015-03-28T22:39:32Z pjb: You can have base-char = character.
2015-03-28T22:39:33Z pjb: etc.
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2015-03-28T22:43:12Z faheem_: pjb: ok
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2015-03-29T00:31:46Z Fare: pjb: hi
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2015-03-29T00:33:49Z Fare: are you using in-user-configuration-directory and such?
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2015-03-29T01:30:59Z drmeister: Has anyone ever seen a 2 page length demo paper for a computer science conference?   I'm writing one for ELS, I have the ACM LaTeX template.  I'm looking for an example that would give me a better idea of what people write in these things.  I know how to write chemistry papers - but papers on software - I'm clueless.
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2015-03-29T01:34:23Z Quadrescence: drmeister, Just give the highlights, give some I/O, give a little background/motivation
2015-03-29T01:34:41Z drmeister: I/O?
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2015-03-29T01:34:49Z Quadrescence: Input Output interaction
2015-03-29T01:35:04Z drmeister: Example input and output?
2015-03-29T01:35:09Z Quadrescence: If it is relevant
2015-03-29T01:35:24Z Quadrescence: drmeister, Don't make the mistake I did and write a 15 page report on Lagrangian physics for something that's supposed to be no more than 2 pages in length.
2015-03-29T01:36:35Z drmeister: I have something that is relevant.
2015-03-29T01:37:57Z Quadrescence: drmeister, Here is the one-pager that the later was cut down to: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/734346/ilc2014-talk-robert-smith.pdf
2015-03-29T01:38:03Z Quadrescence: Hope that helps.
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2015-03-29T01:39:35Z Quadrescence: latter*
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2015-03-29T04:27:03Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-03-29T04:29:07Z fe[nl]ix: god morgon
2015-03-29T04:44:08Z beach: So, I see in the logs that pjb and drmeister again conspired to declare that Cleavir is doing something wrong.
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2015-03-29T04:44:45Z Bike: conspired? gosh.
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2015-03-29T04:46:24Z beach: Yeah, this time, apparently Cleavir arbitrarily reorders forms so that they will be evaluated in an order that is not conforming.
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2015-03-29T04:49:38Z beach: I am joking, of course.
2015-03-29T04:52:19Z beach: drmeister: Today I will have guests for lunch, so I might not have time to look at your problem.
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2015-03-29T05:18:33Z beach: clhs shiftf
2015-03-29T05:18:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_shiftf.htm
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2015-03-29T05:18:55Z beach: This entry seems to say that there is a single value of this form.
2015-03-29T05:19:12Z beach: However, the first place could very well have more than one value.
2015-03-29T05:19:53Z beach: It also says that there are a total of n+1 values, which again suggests that each place has a single value.
2015-03-29T05:20:57Z beach: SBCL seems to handle and return multiple values, as one would expect.
2015-03-29T05:23:58Z |3b|: you mean something like (m-v-b (a b c) (shiftf (values d e f) (values g h i) (values 1 2 3)))?
2015-03-29T05:24:32Z beach: Yeah.
2015-03-29T05:26:24Z beach: Note to self: Document what happens with multiple values in SHIFTF in Common Lisp version 2 (which will be called something else to avoid the confusion with CLtL2).
2015-03-29T05:26:56Z |3b|: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss309_w.htm + the line about too many/too few values from newvalue in SHIFTF spec suggests it is intended to work
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2015-03-29T05:28:44Z beach: More than one value is newvalue is already discussed in the entry.
2015-03-29T05:28:46Z electrojustin: this is probably a dumb question, but how can I make a slot for some class hold an object of another class in common lisp?
2015-03-29T05:29:44Z beach: electrojustin: (setf (slot-value one-class 'slot-in-one-class) (slot-value another-class 'slot-in-another-class))
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2015-03-29T05:30:18Z electrojustin: no i don't want just a slot from another class, I want an entire instance of the class
2015-03-29T05:30:25Z beach: |3b|: But, yeah, it suggest that everything should work.
2015-03-29T05:30:30Z |3b|: instances are values like any other, just store it
2015-03-29T05:30:57Z |3b|: (setf (slot-accessor class-instance) other-class-instance)
2015-03-29T05:31:11Z beach: electrojustin: (setf (slot-value one-class 'slot-in-one-class) (make-instance 'another-class))
2015-03-29T05:31:19Z |3b|: or using slot-value if preferred, or store it with :initarg/:initform
2015-03-29T05:31:40Z beach: electrojustin: What |3b| says.  You typically never use slot-value.
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2015-03-29T05:32:41Z beach: electrojustin: (make-instance 'one-class :some-initarg (make-instance 'another-class))
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2015-03-29T05:33:28Z electrojustin: i tried doing exactly that with :initarg, but clisp keeps complaining about #<BUILT-IN-CLASS CONS> or something...
2015-03-29T05:33:59Z beach: electrojustin: You can't create instances of bullt-in classes using make-instance.
2015-03-29T05:34:10Z beach: There are specific constructors for built-in classes.
2015-03-29T05:34:16Z electrojustin: I didn't try to...
2015-03-29T05:34:21Z beach: For the CONS class, the constructor is called CONS.
2015-03-29T05:34:23Z |3b|: electrojustin: what is the exact error?
2015-03-29T05:35:10Z beach: electrojustin: Paste the form an the error to paste.lisp.org/new
2015-03-29T05:35:17Z beach: and
2015-03-29T05:35:59Z electrojustin: oh I got a different error this time...anyways, gimme a second and I'll paste it
2015-03-29T05:38:28Z electrojustin: alright here's the error: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146579
2015-03-29T05:38:32Z electrojustin: should I paste the code as well?
2015-03-29T05:39:03Z beach: Yes.  That's a very different problem.
2015-03-29T05:40:13Z beach: Where do the underscores come from?
2015-03-29T05:41:21Z electrojustin: i named the function and the variable that way
2015-03-29T05:41:25Z beach: You are calling GET_LABEL with some argument, maybe it is the symbol START_SQUARE, and GET_LABEL is complaining that there is no method for that.
2015-03-29T05:41:36Z beach: electrojustin: That's not the Common Lisp convention.
2015-03-29T05:41:41Z electrojustin: i'm new to lisp, I usually just use C, so hence the underscores...
2015-03-29T05:41:50Z electrojustin: oh?
2015-03-29T05:41:52Z beach: Replace them with dashes.
2015-03-29T05:41:55Z beach: get-label.
2015-03-29T05:42:04Z beach: also, don't use get- or set- as prefixes.
2015-03-29T05:42:04Z electrojustin: alright
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2015-03-29T05:46:46Z electrojustin: here's the code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146580
2015-03-29T05:47:46Z beach: When does the error happen?
2015-03-29T05:48:10Z electrojustin: the call to init-move at the bottom
2015-03-29T05:48:23Z beach: init-game?
2015-03-29T05:48:39Z electrojustin: no, sorry, make-move
2015-03-29T05:49:05Z electrojustin: it attempts to call get-label with start-square
2015-03-29T05:50:06Z |3b|: why is make-move-instance a macro?
2015-03-29T05:50:07Z beach: Right, you pass it the symbol START-SQUARE.
2015-03-29T05:51:02Z electrojustin: how would I pass it the actual instance instead of the symbol?
2015-03-29T05:51:03Z |3b|: also, your indentation is very confusing :/
2015-03-29T05:51:16Z beach: electrojustin: Hold on.  I must have misread.
2015-03-29T05:51:19Z |3b|: not using a macro would be easiest solutiuon
2015-03-29T05:51:36Z |3b|: otherwise, writing the macro correctly if there is some good reason for it to be a macro
2015-03-29T05:52:56Z electrojustin: i originally had that macro without all the parameters. I'm used to C macros which are really nothing more than string replacements, so I assumed I could reference all those lexical variables or w/e they're called. Thought that would save me some typing
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2015-03-29T05:53:32Z |3b|: as far as i can see, that would work if you just replaced defmacro with defun
2015-03-29T05:53:33Z beach: electrojustin: I think |3b| has found the problem.  You are using a macro where you shouldn't.
2015-03-29T05:53:33Z electrojustin: sorry about the style, I'm still trying to learn the language let alone the best practices
2015-03-29T05:54:05Z beach: electrojustin: You need to use some tools to get the indentation right.
2015-03-29T05:54:15Z beach: We recommend you use SLIME with GNU Emacs.
2015-03-29T05:54:25Z beach: And we recommend you use Quicklisp to install SLIME.
2015-03-29T05:55:12Z |3b|: your macro creates an instance when the macro is expanded, at which point it only knows the names of the variables not the values
2015-03-29T05:55:22Z |3b|: so you end up with the names of the variables in that instance
2015-03-29T05:55:57Z |3b|: macros should generally return code to create instances rather than creating instances directly, and they shouldn't be used at all without some reason
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2015-03-29T05:56:18Z |3b|: that macro would work fine as a function, so there is no reason to use a macro
2015-03-29T05:57:18Z electrojustin: changing it to defun creates a completely different error...
2015-03-29T05:57:36Z |3b|: annotate that paste with the error
2015-03-29T05:58:17Z electrojustin: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146580#1
2015-03-29T05:58:57Z |3b|: right, you didn't define a setf function for get-label
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2015-03-29T05:59:16Z beach: electrojustin: You are trying to do (setf (get-label ...) ..) but for that you need to define a function called (setf get-label) or declare some slot as :accessor.
2015-03-29T05:59:50Z electrojustin: oh, because it's a method?
2015-03-29T06:00:03Z beach: It is nothing at all until you define it.
2015-03-29T06:00:16Z beach: You can define it as a generic function or an ordinary function.
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2015-03-29T06:01:16Z beach: When you say (setf (get-label ...) VALUE) By default, that means calling a function called (setf get-label) with VALUE as the first argument.
2015-03-29T06:02:04Z electrojustin: oh. did not know that...
2015-03-29T06:02:06Z beach: It would be like saying get_label(x) = value in C without defining what that means.
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2015-03-29T06:04:12Z beach: electrojustin: Other thing: In INIT-MOVE, there is no need to repeat (MAKE-MOVE-INSTANCE ...).  You can do (make-move-instance start-square end-square end-label (cond ((...) 10000) ((...) 8) ((...) 3)))
2015-03-29T06:04:35Z beach: In Common Lisp IF, COND etc are expressions that return values.
2015-03-29T06:05:20Z electrojustin: oh wow I didn't even thing of that
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2015-03-29T06:05:43Z beach: Because you are not used to conditionals being expressions.
2015-03-29T06:06:05Z electrojustin: yeah this is written very object oriented/procedural
2015-03-29T06:06:40Z beach: electrojustin: I am serious though.  You need to install Qicklisp and then SLIME so that you can indent this properly before you continue.
2015-03-29T06:06:42Z |3b|: programming paradigm doesn't really matter for that, CL just doesn't have a separate "statement" that doesn't return a value
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2015-03-29T06:07:09Z |3b|: even things like DEFUN return a value, even if it isn't really useful most of the time
2015-03-29T06:07:15Z beach: electrojustin: It is impossible to read your code as it is now.  And it will quickly be impossible for you too unless you fix that problem.
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2015-03-29T06:08:16Z electrojustin: is there something like slime for vim?
2015-03-29T06:08:33Z beach: I hear there is.
2015-03-29T06:08:57Z |3b|: there is also something like vim for emacs if that helps :)
2015-03-29T06:09:21Z beach wonders why all these people are taught vim to begin with rather than Emacs.  Someone is not doing them a favor.
2015-03-29T06:09:30Z electrojustin: my desktop's keyboard is ancient enough to not have a meta-key, so I've been putting off learning emacs
2015-03-29T06:09:59Z |3b|: electrojustin: other way around... too new to have a meta key :p
2015-03-29T06:10:03Z beach: electrojustin: I practically never use my Meta key.  I use C-[ as a prefix instead.
2015-03-29T06:10:37Z |3b|: alt is usually interpreted as meta on most systems though (at least linux.windows, not sure what it is on macs)
2015-03-29T06:10:38Z electrojustin: do new keyboards seriously not come with a meta-key?
2015-03-29T06:10:39Z beach: ... because the Meta key is not so easy to reach.  I use it only when I need to repeat several Meta commands in a row.
2015-03-29T06:11:23Z |3b|: only thing added on new keyboards are windows keys, which are usually interpreted as super or something
2015-03-29T06:11:42Z |3b|: and alt is usually easier to hit than them anyway
2015-03-29T06:11:44Z electrojustin: i thought the windows key was the meta
2015-03-29T06:12:04Z beach: So if I just want a single (say) M-b I just do C-[ b instead.
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2015-03-29T06:12:26Z electrojustin: at any rate, my keyboard has neither. also why I'll probably never consider using awesome for a window manager
2015-03-29T06:14:18Z beach: electrojustin: Well, you need to figure out a way to indent your code properly.  Or you will quickly lose control yourself, and it will be impossible to help you when the code becomes only slightly more complex.
2015-03-29T06:15:08Z electrojustin: is there a good style convention guideline out there?
2015-03-29T06:15:10Z beach: Like I said, you don't need a Meta key for Emacs.  I just use C-[ all the time.
2015-03-29T06:15:22Z beach: electrojustin: For indentation?
2015-03-29T06:15:27Z electrojustin: yes, and in general
2015-03-29T06:15:37Z beach: electrojustin: Yes, the convention is: Use whatever Emacs+SLIME does.
2015-03-29T06:15:55Z electrojustin: the meta key thing is an excuse, i just don't particularly like emacs...
2015-03-29T06:15:59Z beach: electrojustin: For other conventions, there are the LUV slides and the Google style guide.
2015-03-29T06:16:03Z electrojustin: looks like someone did make slime for vim
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2015-03-29T06:21:58Z electrojustin: getting late around here. should probably go to bed...thanks for the advice beach, |3b|!
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2015-03-29T06:55:04Z aeth: What's the definition of Lisp? i.e. What makes an implementation a Lisp implementation instead of its own language?
2015-03-29T06:55:19Z beach: aeth: The standard.
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2015-03-29T06:56:07Z beach: clhs 1.5.1
2015-03-29T06:56:07Z specbot: Conforming Implementations: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_ea.htm
2015-03-29T06:56:10Z aeth: So a modern Lisp is that which conforms to the hyperspec?
2015-03-29T06:56:32Z beach: No, a "conforming" Lisp is what conforms to the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2015-03-29T06:56:33Z |3b|: on this channel, yes :)
2015-03-29T06:56:33Z aeth: *oh* there it is
2015-03-29T06:56:56Z aeth: beach: I was going through the HyperSpec and I couldn't find something like that. I didn't think to look for the word "conforming"
2015-03-29T06:57:25Z aeth: I passed right by 1.5 in the contents without paying attention
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2015-03-29T06:59:46Z aeth: thanks
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2015-03-29T07:03:40Z beach: OK, this is interesting: http://paste.lisp.org/+353V
2015-03-29T07:05:44Z beach: SBCL seems to handle how multiple values are returned according to the store form rather than the access form.
2015-03-29T07:08:57Z beach: I love this kind of exercise: 1. Check how some implementation expands some macro form.  2. Invent a case for which it would then do something unexpected.  3. Condense that case to a minimum.  4. Decide (or discuss with #lisp participants) what should have been done instead.  :)
2015-03-29T07:10:32Z beach: |3b|: Any insight?
2015-03-29T07:12:58Z beach: A week or so ago, I was putting off implementing PSETF, ROTATEF, and SHIFTF because they seemed messy, and I was seriously thinking about "borrowing" from some other implementation.  Now I am glad I didn't do that.
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2015-03-29T07:14:32Z beach: aeth: Anytime!
2015-03-29T07:16:18Z |3b|: beach: (shiftf (values a b) (foo) (values 1 2)) stored both values into a,b though
2015-03-29T07:16:31Z beach: Yes.
2015-03-29T07:16:46Z beach: It's just the first place that is mishandled.
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2015-03-29T07:16:53Z beach: Or handled inconsistently.
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2015-03-29T07:24:20Z |3b| isn't sure the spec is clear enough to say "mishandled", but it does seem inconsistent at best
2015-03-29T07:26:49Z beach: Right.  At the very least, it should either return all values or only the first value of the first place.
2015-03-29T07:27:06Z beach: In fact the Common Lisp HyperSpec suggests that only one value should be returned.
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2015-03-29T07:49:13Z Fare: beach: what did you learn about SETF & al. ?
2015-03-29T07:49:48Z beach: That it is hard to get them right.
2015-03-29T07:54:15Z beach: Maybe I should start reporting "issues" to SBCL.  Is it worthwhile?  I.e., is anybody in charge of fixing things?
2015-03-29T07:54:41Z |3b| doesn't know about "in charge of", but people do fix things
2015-03-29T07:55:05Z Fare: beach: it has a launchpad bug tracker
2015-03-29T07:55:13Z Fare: and bugs do get fixed once in a while
2015-03-29T07:55:20Z beach: OK.
2015-03-29T07:55:30Z Fare: my patches tend to linger a LONG time when they make it at all, but it's just me.
2015-03-29T07:55:49Z Fare: I don't tend to make friends amongst SBCL deep implementers
2015-03-29T07:56:04Z beach: Oh!
2015-03-29T07:56:17Z Fare: i suppose SBCL internals somehow go against my sense of aesthetics
2015-03-29T07:56:36Z Fare: though there's a lot of good in them, the overall architecure is somewhat messy
2015-03-29T07:56:51Z |3b|: varies a lot depending on how bad the problem is vs how hard to fix, and how much the people with time to work on things know about the particular subsystems involved
2015-03-29T07:57:08Z jackdaniel: when we're at that - i have addressed all your reports beach - thanks! :-)
2015-03-29T07:57:17Z jackdaniel: in regard of ecl
2015-03-29T07:57:18Z |3b|: (how long it takes to get bugs fixed i mean)
2015-03-29T07:57:31Z beach: jackdaniel: I have more, but I haven't had time to report them.  Thanks!
2015-03-29T07:57:44Z |3b|: does ecl still get float-nan-p backwards?
2015-03-29T07:57:51Z beach: Fare: Is that why you are interested in Cleavir?
2015-03-29T07:57:54Z |3b| doesn't remember if i ever got around to reporting that or not
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2015-03-29T07:57:56Z jackdaniel: beach: we have moved bugtracker to gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp, if you'll have time to report, please put it there
2015-03-29T07:58:06Z beach: jackdaniel: Will do.
2015-03-29T07:59:00Z Fare: beach: among other things
2015-03-29T07:59:15Z beach: Fare: Care to share the others?
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2015-03-29T08:00:28Z beach: Fare: If you don't, that's fine too.
2015-03-29T08:01:49Z Fare: jackdaniel, can you upgrade your asdf to 3.1.4 ?
2015-03-29T08:02:07Z Fare: (and test that it works for you, first)
2015-03-29T08:02:47Z Fare: beach: still hoping to find a lisp that I adopt
2015-03-29T08:03:00Z beach: Fare: Ah, yes, I see.
2015-03-29T08:03:10Z Fare: I like a lot about racket, but a lot I don't like about it, either
2015-03-29T08:03:26Z Fare: cl has a lot of great stuff but doesn't look like it's reformable
2015-03-29T08:03:33Z jackdaniel: beach: I don't know, wasn't aware about this function (it is undefined on ecl atm)
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2015-03-29T08:04:17Z Fare: haskell, ml, rust, ats, idris, etc., have lots of good stuff, but I really miss the reflection of lisp.
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2015-03-29T08:04:24Z beach: jackdaniel: What function?
2015-03-29T08:04:45Z jackdaniel: float-nan-p
2015-03-29T08:05:00Z |3b|: jackdaniel: i think it is in sys:
2015-03-29T08:05:04Z beach: Oh, |3b| told you about it. Not me.
2015-03-29T08:05:22Z jackdaniel: |3b|: thanks, it's there
2015-03-29T08:05:33Z jackdaniel: beach: what do you mean by backwards?
2015-03-29T08:05:56Z beach: jackdaniel: Not me!  |3b| :)
2015-03-29T08:05:58Z |3b|: from the name, i'd expect it to return T for NaNs, NIL otherwise
2015-03-29T08:06:13Z |3b| doesn't remember if it was documented either way
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2015-03-29T08:06:34Z Fare: I want resource management, i.e. linear types, region management, whatever allows to avoid GC when you're doing system work and/or security
2015-03-29T08:06:37Z jackdaniel: oh, sorry
2015-03-29T08:06:53Z Fare: and delimited continuations
2015-03-29T08:07:00Z |3b|: so (sys:float-nan-p 1.0) -> nil
2015-03-29T08:07:04Z jackdaniel: |3b|: it is defined and returns nil for numbers
2015-03-29T08:07:06Z Fare: gtg
2015-03-29T08:07:06Z jackdaniel: yes
2015-03-29T08:07:13Z jackdaniel: Fare: I'll take a look into it tomorrow (added to my todo list)
2015-03-29T08:08:52Z jackdaniel: s/for numbers/for numeric floats/
2015-03-29T08:09:06Z |3b|: jackdaniel: cool
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2015-03-29T08:34:35Z jackdaniel:  /win 17
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2015-03-29T08:40:58Z dim: wow, https://github.com/blakemcbride/PC-LISP --- what should we expect exactly here... a new standard compliant implementation, or something a little weird at places?
2015-03-29T08:42:01Z |3b| would assume an old implementation from the name
2015-03-29T08:42:52Z |3b|: possibly pre-cl
2015-03-29T08:43:26Z dim: PC-LISP is a portable Franz Lisp dialect interpreter and compiler, written in C, that is portable to 32 & 64 bit Linux, Mac, and Windows.
2015-03-29T08:43:37Z dim: Franz Lisp is nowadays standard compliant, it's ACL, right?
2015-03-29T08:43:53Z dim: or Franz used to edit Franz Lisp and now is editing ACL instead maybe?
2015-03-29T08:44:58Z |3b|: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC-LISP ?
2015-03-29T08:45:00Z beach: dim: Franz Lisp was a system on Unix.
2015-03-29T08:45:18Z beach: dim: The creator of Franz Lisp then created Franz Inc.
2015-03-29T08:45:25Z beach: dim: (John Foderaro)
2015-03-29T08:45:32Z |3b|: so maybe not even all of franz lisp
2015-03-29T08:45:39Z beach: dim: Franz Inc now make Allegro Common Lisp.
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2015-03-29T08:45:47Z dim: oh, ok, makes all sense, thanks
2015-03-29T08:45:56Z dim: the Lisp history is quite rich ;-)
2015-03-29T08:46:16Z Quadrescence: Allegro Common Lisp is Common Lisp
2015-03-29T08:46:18Z Quadrescence: with some extensions
2015-03-29T08:46:20Z Quadrescence: Franz Lisp is a different thing, perhaps only colloquially referring to Allegro CL
2015-03-29T08:46:54Z dim: the wikipedia page says that Franz Lisp is a direct successor to Maclisp, that's like a time machine for youngsters ;-)
2015-03-29T08:47:27Z beach: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Lisp
2015-03-29T08:48:04Z beach: As I recall, Franz Lisp went to great trouble to avoid lexical bindings.
2015-03-29T08:49:07Z dim: used to be a BSD package... is it still available in OpenBSD maybe?
2015-03-29T08:49:15Z Quadrescence: most likely not
2015-03-29T08:49:29Z Quadrescence: a version for VAX exists tho
2015-03-29T08:49:49Z dim: maybe the guys will want to re-add it, well the modern compilable version of it at PC-LISP on github... they have that sort of fun sometimes ;-)
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2015-03-29T08:53:46Z beach: I wrote the software of my PhD thesis in Franz Lisp.  But it would probably be easier to convert the code to Common Lisp than to try to revive Franz Lisp.
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2015-03-29T08:56:18Z dim: and pushing Franz Lisp to be another implementation of the standard would be... feasible? a waste of time?
2015-03-29T08:56:42Z dim: well I meant the PC-LISP portable C code recently published
2015-03-29T08:57:43Z |3b|: probably more useful to work on sicl than try to turn an old not-cl into a cl
2015-03-29T08:57:50Z beach: I would say a waste of time, given the emphasis on dynamic binding rather than lexical.  Large parts of the compiler would have to be rewritten.
2015-03-29T08:58:05Z Shinmera: And even then, what would the benefit be?
2015-03-29T08:58:27Z |3b|: size maybe, if it fit on DOS?
2015-03-29T08:58:47Z beach: It won't anymore once it becomes a conforming Common Lisp implementation. :)
2015-03-29T08:58:53Z Shinmera: I very much doubt it would still fit if it were conforming
2015-03-29T08:59:14Z Shinmera: Anyway. We already have multiple CL implementations that are portable and fast. Any new CL impl should offer something that the others don't already.
2015-03-29T09:01:01Z dim: yeah, so it's of historical interest, either for study or for running old programs written in that dialect on modern hardware I guess
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2015-03-29T09:01:33Z jackdaniel: (incf **)
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2015-03-29T09:03:36Z jackdaniel: http://www.hacker-dictionary.com/terms/reinvent-the-wheel
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2015-03-29T09:46:56Z dim: the problem with "reinventing the wheel" that I see is that it's perfect for educational purposes, and plenty of just-out-of-school professionals still have to get the memo that it's counter-productive anywhere else
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2015-03-29T09:47:37Z Zhivago: Most computational wheels are broken for most things.
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2015-03-29T13:16:54Z jackdaniel: trac.common-lisp.net is common for all projects which use it? if yes, how to register account to correct bug in project wiki?
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2015-03-29T14:53:05Z digiorgi: hi guys! What about a tail call optimization via macro expansions?
2015-03-29T14:53:35Z beach: What about it?
2015-03-29T14:54:07Z digiorgi: did you think it could be usefull?
2015-03-29T14:54:10Z hitecnologys: I think that's a compiler's work to optimize things.
2015-03-29T14:54:25Z digiorgi: but it is not standard
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2015-03-29T14:54:32Z hitecnologys: Does it matter?
2015-03-29T14:54:34Z beach: digiorgi: I am not sure what you are suggesting.
2015-03-29T14:54:54Z hitecnologys: Most of CL compilers implement it.
2015-03-29T14:54:59Z Shinmera thinks that in cases where tail-call elimination is trivial a loop would be just as easy and more clear to write to begin with
2015-03-29T14:55:09Z digiorgi: i made a macro, that generates a tail-call optimized lambda function
2015-03-29T14:55:29Z jackdaniel: digiorgi: do does exactly that
2015-03-29T14:55:36Z jackdaniel: do macro i mean
2015-03-29T14:55:45Z beach: digiorgi: If it is possible to do in the implementation, then it is probably already done by the compiler whenever possible.
2015-03-29T14:56:14Z hitecnologys: digiorgi: I'm not sure why do you want recursion so much then. As Shinmera and jackdaniel suggested, use loops.
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2015-03-29T14:56:57Z hitecnologys: digiorgi: if you want recrsion, use recursion and let compiler do what it's paid for to do.
2015-03-29T14:57:09Z beach: digiorgi: The only reason I can see for an implementation not to do tail-call optimization is if the calling convention doesn't allow it.
2015-03-29T14:57:41Z digiorgi: i am using ECL and it does not have TCO. I think cause the C calling convention
2015-03-29T14:57:49Z Shinmera: Colleen: cl tco
2015-03-29T14:57:49Z Colleen: The hyperspec does not require TCO. However, some implementations support it under certain circumstances. See http://0branch.com/notes/tco-cl.html for an extensive survey.
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2015-03-29T14:58:26Z beach: digiorgi: Sounds plausible.  But then a macro wouldn't help if the implementation can't do it anyway.
2015-03-29T14:58:27Z jackdaniel: digiorgi: ecl till have tco, but first things first. and - you can tune gcc flags, then it will compile tail-optimized code
2015-03-29T14:58:44Z jackdaniel: s/till/will/
2015-03-29T14:58:50Z hitecnologys: digiorgi: tail-call optimization is non-trivial. Are you sure your macro handles it properly?
2015-03-29T14:59:20Z digiorgi: it handles normal args, not keyword, or rest arguments
2015-03-29T14:59:50Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-03-29T15:00:40Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2015-03-29T15:00:46Z jackdaniel: digiorgi: it will obfuscate code imo - i mean - TCO is compilers optimization, not library
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2015-03-29T15:01:03Z drmeister: What am I doing wrong with the load-time forms?  Do I need to generate code for them somewhere else?  Currently I generate the load-time-form code just before the HIR is generated.
2015-03-29T15:01:35Z beach: drmeister: I really haven't had time to look at it.
2015-03-29T15:01:41Z beach: I have had guests most of the day.
2015-03-29T15:01:48Z digiorgi: my TCO implementation: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146603
2015-03-29T15:02:06Z drmeister: That won't work with (progn (define-structure 'foo) (make-structure (load-time-form (find-class 'foo))))
2015-03-29T15:02:31Z hitecnologys: digiorgi: you wrote so much code just to evade using loops?
2015-03-29T15:02:45Z digiorgi: (: yes...
2015-03-29T15:02:50Z beach: drmeister: Why won't it work?
2015-03-29T15:02:52Z hitecnologys: Excellent job.
2015-03-29T15:03:58Z drmeister: beach: Because the code that gets generated is essentially (progn (defconstant zzz (find-class 'foo)) (define-structure 'foo) (make-structure zzz))
2015-03-29T15:04:18Z hitecnologys: digiorgi: you should put all those functions called from macro under EVAL-WHEN or it won't compile.
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2015-03-29T15:05:05Z beach: drmeister: Is the example (progn (define-structure ...)) the code that is compiled by compile-file?
2015-03-29T15:05:47Z drmeister: *compiler* is set to 'cl:compile-file.   I'm calling generate-ast on (eval-when (:load-toplevel ...) (define-structure 'foo) (make-structure (load-time-value (find-class 'foo)))).
2015-03-29T15:05:57Z drmeister: beach: Yes.
2015-03-29T15:06:08Z drmeister: Essentially
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2015-03-29T15:07:09Z drmeister: I'm compile-file(ing):    (DEFSTRUCTURE FOO)    That expands to (eval-when (:load-toplevel ...) (define-structure 'foo) (defun make-foo (make-structure (load-time-value (find-class 'foo)))))
2015-03-29T15:07:25Z beach: drmeister: I see why it is not working.  Now I have to think about whether it is supposed to work.
2015-03-29T15:07:30Z digiorgi: hitecnologys: thanks, i will do it
2015-03-29T15:08:08Z drmeister: Once I hoist the load time values it essentially turns into (progn (defconstant zzz (find-class 'foo)) (define-structure 'foo) (defun make-foo (make-structure zzz)))
2015-03-29T15:08:08Z beach: drmeister: Do you have a pointer to somewhere in the Common Lisp HyperSpec where it says in which order things are evaluated at load time?
2015-03-29T15:08:09Z drmeister: Right
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2015-03-29T15:08:32Z drmeister: No - it simply says that the compiler makes it available.
2015-03-29T15:08:50Z drmeister: It's more about how top level forms are processed.
2015-03-29T15:09:11Z beach: How so?
2015-03-29T15:10:25Z drmeister: I process (eval-when (:load-toplevel) (define-structure foo) (make-structure (load-time-value (find-class 'foo)))) as two top-level forms.   So the second one (make-structure (load-time-value (find-class 'foo))) will become (progn (defconstant zzz (find-class 'foo)) (make-structure zzz))
2015-03-29T15:11:12Z drmeister: I think there is a problem in the HIR generated by Cleavir  (I hate to say that and I really want to walk it back).
2015-03-29T15:11:39Z drmeister: Check the email that I sent.  The HIR is there.
2015-03-29T15:12:05Z drmeister: Wait - I have it here.
2015-03-29T15:12:10Z beach: what makes you think it is wrong?
2015-03-29T15:13:50Z drmeister: http://imgur.com/P8lupL9
2015-03-29T15:14:05Z beach: I am not saying it isn't wrong.  I just want to know what makes you think so.
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2015-03-29T15:14:20Z drmeister: Or I'm wrong about where hoisted load-time-values code needs to be evaluated.
2015-03-29T15:14:25Z drmeister: Let me explain
2015-03-29T15:14:40Z drmeister: If I ask Cleavir to COMPILE-FILE    (DEFSTRUCTURE FOO)
2015-03-29T15:14:54Z digiorgi: how did you generate that picture?
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2015-03-29T15:15:29Z beach: I have no idea, because I don't know your definition of DEFSTRUCTURE.
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2015-03-29T15:15:45Z beach: Cleavir just expands the macro and compiles the expansion.
2015-03-29T15:15:47Z drmeister: That gets expanded to (eval-when (:load-toplevel) (define-structure 'foo) (defun make-foo () (make-structure (load-time-value (find-class 'foo)))))
2015-03-29T15:16:07Z drmeister: Right - I just provided the essential parts of the expansion.
2015-03-29T15:16:22Z drmeister: This is the form passed to generate-ast
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2015-03-29T15:16:57Z drmeister: The load-time-values are hoisted out of the ast. so that they would be evaluated BEFORE any of the code generated by the AST is evaluated.
2015-03-29T15:17:21Z drmeister: That means (FIND-CLASS 'FOO) gets evaluated before (DEFINE-STRUCTURE 'FOO) --> problem.
2015-03-29T15:17:40Z beach: But if that behavior is conforming, I don't see the problem?
2015-03-29T15:17:50Z drmeister: Is it conforming?
2015-03-29T15:17:59Z beach: If it is not conforming, we need to find the place in the Common Lisp HyperSpec where it says it is conforming.
2015-03-29T15:18:02Z drmeister: If it is then I'm doing something wrong
2015-03-29T15:18:11Z beach: where it is *not* conforming.
2015-03-29T15:18:16Z drmeister: Give me a sec
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2015-03-29T15:18:23Z beach: The thing here is that two things are done at load time.
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2015-03-29T15:18:35Z beach: The call to define-structure and the evaluation of the load-time-value form.
2015-03-29T15:18:55Z beach: We need to know whether the Common Lisp HyperSpec specifies in which order the two are supposed to be evaluated.
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2015-03-29T15:19:25Z jackdaniel: con/win 16
2015-03-29T15:19:49Z drmeister: Case 5 of http://imgur.com/P8lupL9
2015-03-29T15:19:51Z drmeister: Hang on
2015-03-29T15:20:03Z drmeister: Case 5 of 3.2.3.1 Processing of Top Level Forms
2015-03-29T15:20:17Z beach: clhs 3.2.3 1
2015-03-29T15:20:22Z beach: clhs 3.2.3.1
2015-03-29T15:20:22Z specbot: Processing of Top Level Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bca.htm
2015-03-29T15:20:49Z beach: drmeister: OK, I am reading.  Tell me what you see.
2015-03-29T15:20:50Z drmeister: Process the body as top-level forms
2015-03-29T15:21:44Z beach: I think that is being done.  Don't you think so?
2015-03-29T15:21:50Z drmeister: Not quite
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2015-03-29T15:22:01Z beach: Then I certainly need to know.
2015-03-29T15:22:33Z drmeister: The way I interpret it is that load-time-values are evaluated immediately before any top-level forms that require them.
2015-03-29T15:22:45Z drmeister: It's the basic REPL.
2015-03-29T15:23:07Z drmeister: REPL means read a top-level form, evaluate it, print then loop.
2015-03-29T15:23:20Z beach: Where does it say that?
2015-03-29T15:23:46Z drmeister: Isn't that the basis of the language?
2015-03-29T15:24:16Z drmeister: Let's try this another way.
2015-03-29T15:26:40Z ggole: compile-file throws a bit of a wrinkle in that, doesn't it?
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2015-03-29T15:27:31Z drmeister: What should this generate when you compile-file it and load the fasl?
2015-03-29T15:28:00Z hitecnologys: Err, how does :mode in ENSURE-DIRECTORIES-EXIST exactly works?
2015-03-29T15:28:14Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146604
2015-03-29T15:28:23Z drmeister: In SBCL it prints the class.
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2015-03-29T15:28:47Z beach: clhs load-time-value
2015-03-29T15:28:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_ld_tim.htm
2015-03-29T15:28:58Z beach: "It is guaranteed that the evaluation of form will take place only once when the file is loaded, but the order of evaluation with respect to the evaluation of top level forms in the file is implementation-dependent. "
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2015-03-29T15:30:51Z beach: drmeister: There is nothing in Cleavir that re-orders top-level forms.
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2015-03-29T15:31:13Z drmeister: It may be then that it is not wrong but that what Cleavir is doing is incompatible with the ECL macros that I'm using for DEFSTRUCTURE
2015-03-29T15:31:34Z beach: drmeister: If you have two different top-level forms and the load-time-value is in the second one, how come you evaluated it before evaluating the first top-level form?
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2015-03-29T15:32:08Z drmeister: It's not that it re-orders them - it's that it hoists the load-time-values to a point in the code where some of them will signal errors because their defining forms have not evaluated yet.
2015-03-29T15:32:51Z beach: EVAL-WHEN is an implicit progn so it is a single top-level form.
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2015-03-29T15:33:28Z hitecnologys: Oh, never mind.
2015-03-29T15:33:30Z beach: So in fact, unless Clasp re-orders top-level forms, the load-time value does get evaluated immediately before the top-level form that needs it, as you requested.
2015-03-29T15:33:46Z drmeister: beach: That may be my problem - I may be evaluating the (load-time-value (find-class 'foo)) at the wrong point - but the way you taught me to do it was that they would be evaluated and passed to the MIR as arguments.  That's the problem I'm running into.
2015-03-29T15:34:01Z hitecnologys: It just takes raw number in, not per-type as chmod does.
2015-03-29T15:34:25Z beach: drmeister: That is correct behavior.
2015-03-29T15:36:01Z beach: drmeister: Why is this such a problem for you?  Can't you just NOT compile it with the file compiler.  Then everything will work.
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2015-03-29T15:37:32Z beach: drmeister: Or even better: (eval-when (:load-top-level) (define-structure 'foo)) (eval-when (:load-top-level) (defun ...))
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2015-03-29T15:37:48Z beach: Then you will load the first form first and the second form after that.
2015-03-29T15:38:43Z drmeister: beach: This is the Clasp/ECL Common Lisp code that is failing to load because of this behavior.
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2015-03-29T15:38:57Z drmeister: I'm not sure where the problem is .
2015-03-29T15:39:25Z beach: drmeister: Try what I said.  Put the two forms in separate EVAL-WHENs.
2015-03-29T15:39:48Z beach: drmeister: Once you have all the ASTs of the top-level forms in a file, what do you do with them?
2015-03-29T15:39:52Z drmeister: Your expansion would work:   (eval-when (:load-top-level) (define-structure 'foo)) (eval-when (:load-top-level) (defun ...))
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2015-03-29T15:41:12Z drmeister: beach: I can put the two forms in separate EVAL-WHENs - I thought the semantics of Common Lisp  was that whether that it is equivalent to put them in two separate EVAL-WHENs or one EVAL-WHEN
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2015-03-29T15:41:51Z beach: drmeister: I don't understand that phrase.
2015-03-29T15:42:10Z beach: You think the semantics are the same in both cases?
2015-03-29T15:42:40Z drmeister: I thought the CLHS says that (EVAL-WHEN (:load-toplevel) (define-structure 'foo) (load-time-value (find-class 'foo)))   and   (eval-when (:load-toplevel) (define-structure 'foo)) (eval-when (:load-toplevel) (load-time-value (find-class 'foo)))  are equivalent.
2015-03-29T15:42:50Z beach: drmeister: The way you do it clearly invokes behavior that the Common Lisp HyperSpec says is implementation-specific as I pointed out.
2015-03-29T15:42:56Z drmeister: Yes, I think the semantics are the same in both cases.
2015-03-29T15:43:15Z beach: drmeister: And both are implementation specific in this case.
2015-03-29T15:44:28Z beach: drmeister: In Cleavir/Clasp (which is an implementation) the behavior is that the load-time-value will be evaluated before define-structure if you have a single eval-when, and after it if you have two.
2015-03-29T15:44:34Z drmeister: Ok, if that is the case then the ECL code takes advantage of an implementation specific detail.
2015-03-29T15:44:38Z beach: All conforming.
2015-03-29T15:44:56Z beach: drmeister: I think we agreed on that a long time ago.
2015-03-29T15:45:07Z beach: When I pointed out the entry for load-time-value.
2015-03-29T15:45:34Z beach: "It is guaranteed that the evaluation of form will take place only once when the file is loaded, but the order of evaluation with respect to the evaluation of top level forms in the file is implementation-dependent."
2015-03-29T15:45:44Z beach: Notice the "implementation-dependent".
2015-03-29T15:45:44Z drmeister: Got it.
2015-03-29T15:46:15Z drmeister: Ok - then I don't have a problem.
2015-03-29T15:46:38Z beach: So if you just rearrange your forms in some other implementation-dependent way, it will work.
2015-03-29T15:46:57Z beach: Now, if you want to do it so that there is no more implementation-dependent stuff, then put them each in a separate file.
2015-03-29T15:47:23Z beach: The Common Lisp HyperSpec guarantees that the second file will not be loaded before you ask it to.
2015-03-29T15:47:41Z drmeister: I can change the ECL/Clasp source code if what is in there now is non-conforming because it takes advantage of implementation depending order of evaluation of top-level forms with respect to load-time-value form evaluations.
2015-03-29T15:47:57Z drmeister: Does that make sense?
2015-03-29T15:48:26Z beach: Yes, and what is in there now is implementation dependent as the entry for load-time-value clearly says.
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2015-03-29T15:48:57Z beach: Again, you have two options:
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2015-03-29T15:49:38Z beach: 1. Use two EVAL-WHENs in the same file.  Still implementation dependent, but it will probably work in this implementation, unless you merge top-level ASTs.
2015-03-29T15:50:14Z beach: 2. Put the two EVAL-WHENs in separate files.  Then it is clearly defined by the Common Lisp HyperSpec, and there is no more implementation-dependent behavior.
2015-03-29T15:50:25Z drmeister: So - in principle the load-time-value forms can be evaluated before any top-level forms in the file?
2015-03-29T15:50:43Z beach: "It is guaranteed that the evaluation of form will take place only once when the file is loaded, but the order of evaluation with respect to the evaluation of top level forms in the file is implementation-dependent."
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2015-03-29T15:50:57Z beach: Notice "in the file"
2015-03-29T15:52:02Z drmeister: That seems terribly, terribly vague now that I think about it.
2015-03-29T15:52:28Z beach: It looks crystal clear to me.
2015-03-29T15:53:21Z drmeister: You have to have load-time-value forms evaluated after top-level forms that define the things that the load-time-value forms depend on.
2015-03-29T15:53:59Z drmeister: Note: I'm not arguing with you - the spec is clear - I'm trying to understand the consequences better.
2015-03-29T15:54:56Z drmeister: And it's clear to me now that what Cleavir is doing agrees with the CLHS.
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2015-03-29T15:55:15Z beach: No top-level form should define things that the load-time-value form depends on.  If it does, then the implementation-dependent behavior is invoked.
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2015-03-29T15:55:48Z drmeister: In my bootstrapping compiler I managed to replicate the ECL implementation dependent behavior - I assumed that was the only correct behavior.
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2015-03-29T15:56:24Z drmeister: Ah!
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2015-03-29T15:59:31Z drmeister: How should DEFSTRUCT be best defined?     This is how it currently is defined - this is straight out of ECL:   http://paste.lisp.org/display/146606
2015-03-29T15:59:33Z beach: If a top-level form defines something that a load-time-value form depends on, then some conforming implementations might evaluate the load-time-value first, and then it will fail because the top-level form that it depends on has not been evaluated yet.
2015-03-29T16:00:00Z drmeister: Yes - that is exactly what is happening.
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2015-03-29T16:00:58Z drmeister: Maybe I shouldn't use LOAD-TIME-VALUE in this context at all.  Maybe it should just use:   (DEFUN MAKE-FOO () (make-structure (FIND-CLASS 'FOO)))
2015-03-29T16:01:00Z beach: I would remove the load-time-value.
2015-03-29T16:01:16Z drmeister: jinx
2015-03-29T16:01:18Z beach: It is just a performance hack.
2015-03-29T16:01:52Z drmeister: Here I am thinking this was conforming Common Lisp code.
2015-03-29T16:02:06Z beach: It is.
2015-03-29T16:02:15Z beach: Except that it is implementation dependent.
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2015-03-29T16:02:25Z drmeister: Good point.
2015-03-29T16:02:38Z drmeister: Conforming but not portable.
2015-03-29T16:02:43Z beach: Right.
2015-03-29T16:02:48Z drmeister: Argh/
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2015-03-29T16:05:08Z beach: The other thing you can do is to replace DEFUN MAKE-FOO with (setf (fdefinition 'make-foo) (compile nil `(lambda (&key) (si:make-structure ,(find-class 'foo)))))
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2015-03-29T16:05:39Z beach: Look ma!  No load-time-value.
2015-03-29T16:05:46Z beach: [At least I think it will work]
2015-03-29T16:05:58Z drmeister: Well - I see how I got to this place.  I haven't memorized every line of the CLHS and internalized it like some people here (I really wish I could and I depend very much on their good nature).   I'm working with an existing implementation and working with a lot of messy implementation dependent details.
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2015-03-29T16:06:54Z hitecnologys: I once asked about configuration storage. Now I'm interested in whether UIOP has anything to access data in .local?
2015-03-29T16:06:56Z drmeister: So you have things planned for Cleavir that will combine and reorganize ASTs - correct?
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2015-03-29T16:07:50Z beach: drmeister: Nothing automatic.  For SICL, I plan to merge the top-level ASTs of a file into a single PROGN-AST so that I can get the benefit of inter-procedural optimization.
2015-03-29T16:08:08Z drmeister: If I change the implementation dependent behavior to support what Cleavir is currently doing (two EVAL-WHENs) I don't want it to break later.
2015-03-29T16:08:17Z beach: drmeister: So in SICL (another implementation) two top-level EVAL-WHENs won't work.
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2015-03-29T16:09:21Z drmeister: Can I have inter-procedural optimization?
2015-03-29T16:09:27Z beach: I think I will leave the decision about what to do with the top-level ASTs in a file to the implementation.
2015-03-29T16:10:20Z beach: If you merge the top-level ASTs in a file into a single one, all functions in the file will be compiled at the same time, so there will be the opportunity for inter-procedural optimization.
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2015-03-29T16:10:50Z drmeister: Damn - I put so much time into figuring out ECL's implementation dependent behavior - it was a big part of the pain that I suffered getting ECL-CLOS to work.
2015-03-29T16:12:11Z drmeister: Now I see that it would have been perfectly fine to modify the ECL source code.
2015-03-29T16:12:17Z drmeister: I treated it like gospel.
2015-03-29T16:13:34Z beach: Do you have anything else for me?  If not I need to go spend time with my (admittedly small) family.
2015-03-29T16:13:40Z drmeister: beach: I'll have to get the paper draft to you tomorrow.  I've been flying spending time with family.
2015-03-29T16:13:51Z drmeister: I'm rewriting it.
2015-03-29T16:13:52Z beach: That's fine.
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2015-03-29T17:08:37Z pjb: Fare: somebody else asked about storing configuration files, so I suggested it.
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2015-03-29T17:24:32Z Fare: pjb: I'd like to get rid of it and commit a better API that is portable to Windows.
2015-03-29T17:24:51Z Fare: although the Windows convention sucks so much that maybe that's a mistake
2015-03-29T17:26:07Z jackdaniel: Fare: I've tried ecl parallell build against master and develop, and it worked w/o an error. Do you think it may be ubuntu make problem?
2015-03-29T17:27:10Z Fare: no
2015-03-29T17:27:23Z Fare: I realize that my build script wasn't doing a git clean -xfd
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2015-03-29T17:27:51Z Fare: so it's possible that it's a missing dependency that is hidden by the usual build timing.
2015-03-29T17:28:21Z Fare: but if you look at what creates profile.fas, I bet it's missing a dependency on whatever is compiling the socket module.
2015-03-29T17:28:58Z Fare: Maybe you should be using bazel instead of make to build your software :-)
2015-03-29T17:29:02Z jackdaniel: makefiles are mess on ecl unfortunately. ill investigate it this week, hope ill find a cause
2015-03-29T17:29:30Z jackdaniel: never heard about bazel, but I'm considering switching to cmake - it's a lot of work tough
2015-03-29T17:29:45Z Fare: oh right, bazel doesn't support windows yet.
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2015-03-29T17:32:18Z jackdaniel: may i paste your hint about profile.fas on issue's page? i bet i'll forgot if won't put it there now
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2015-03-29T17:37:29Z jackdaniel: due to lack of response, I assume answer which lies in my interest ;-)
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2015-03-29T17:51:26Z pjb: beach: eval-when preserves toplevelness.  Therefore its subforms must also considered toplevel, and therefore their order (and their side-effects order) must be preserved too. (eval-when (…) (foo) (defun foo () 'hi))  must signal an undefined function call error.  (eval-when (…)  (defun foo () 'hi) (defparameter *foo* (load-time-value (foo))) )  must work as expected, binding HI to *FOO*.  And indeed, as you note, (e-w (…) (a) (b)
2015-03-29T17:51:57Z pjb: (one shouldn't have to write the later form).
2015-03-29T17:54:43Z Fare: pjb: if I nest eval-when forms, the conditions are and'ed together, isn't it?
2015-03-29T17:54:54Z pjb: However, one cannot argue against the specification of load-time-value.  so using anything defined in the file in a load-time-value is not conforming. Thanks for a useless specification.
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2015-03-29T17:55:56Z pjb: Fare: well, I have some disaggrement between the _Examples_ given in clhs eval-when (which is implemented by all implementations), and my understanding of eval-when and toplevelness as I read it elsewhere in clhs.
2015-03-29T17:56:07Z jackdaniel: s/forgot/forget/
2015-03-29T17:56:19Z pjb: Fare: eval-when would be an OR anyways.
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2015-03-29T17:57:23Z Fare: pjb: no I mean (eval-when (:load-toplevel) (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (destroy-the-world)) should never destroy the world.
2015-03-29T17:57:40Z pjb: That's were I'd really want a formal specification. clhs says that eval-when evaluates the form only once "ever".  Therefore as soon as it containst :compile-toplevel and it compiles, it should not generate code in the .fasl!  (But this is not what is understood by the implementers, and I'd agree there).
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2015-03-29T17:57:54Z pjb: Fare: yes, in this case.
2015-03-29T17:58:32Z pjb: But in my reading of the specification, (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (destroy-the-world))  should.  The _Example_ which is not legally bounding says no, and implementations don't have my reading on that.
2015-03-29T17:59:23Z pjb: The only conclusion I take from it, is that a formal specification would really not be superfluous.
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2015-03-29T18:01:14Z Fare: pjb: maybe you'll like SML, or ATS, then, not CL
2015-03-29T18:01:27Z pjb: or even r5rs :-)
2015-03-29T18:01:37Z pjb: But I really like CL anyways.
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2015-03-29T18:02:51Z Fare: I like a lot of things about CL, but it's clearly not the be all end all of programming languages
2015-03-29T18:03:23Z Fare: it's still home, but I'm off travelling.
2015-03-29T18:04:16Z Fare: pjb: regarding in-user-configuration, etc., I'm wondering what exactly to do on Windows
2015-03-29T18:04:24Z Fare: or whether I should care
2015-03-29T18:05:06Z pjb: There is certainly designated directories for application files and application configuration files in MS-Windows, so I don't see any reason why not provide them under that API.
2015-03-29T18:05:13Z Fare: on Windows, the convention seems to be to put everything in subdirectories of %appdata%/%appname%/ or local_appdata
2015-03-29T18:05:14Z pjb: What would you change to that API?
2015-03-29T18:05:45Z pjb: I don't know anything about MS-Windows.  But I hear Microsoft has a great documentation web site.
2015-03-29T18:05:50Z Fare: in Unix, XDG managed to semi-standardize that all caches should be under ~/.cache, that configuration and data files are separate, etc.
2015-03-29T18:06:03Z Fare: for some definition of "great"
2015-03-29T18:06:14Z pjb: existing.
2015-03-29T18:06:27Z Fare: and documenting a piece of shit doesn't make it not a piece of shit
2015-03-29T18:06:38Z Fare: even with small gold nuggets in the shit.
2015-03-29T18:06:54Z Fare: (most of them fool's gold)
2015-03-29T18:07:23Z pjb: I've got the feeling that what's bad in Microsoft ecosystem, is more the legacy and the barbarous applications running there.
2015-03-29T18:08:17Z Fare: also the lack of will of M$ to steer in a right direction — because they have no sense of right.
2015-03-29T18:08:30Z pjb: Yes.
2015-03-29T18:08:37Z Fare: quite unlike Apple, which does have a sense of right (whether they are or not is a different question)
2015-03-29T18:10:25Z Fare: M$ doesn't actively deprecates bad APIs, leading to accumulation of toxic waste in the software ecosystem.
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2015-03-29T18:21:47Z Fare: jackdaniel, did I mention upgrading ecl's asdf yet?
2015-03-29T18:22:38Z Fare: I mean, 3.1.4 is from last october.
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2015-03-29T18:25:36Z Fare: so yes, asdf should deprecate that old bad API... but it's not fully clear what the better API is
2015-03-29T18:25:52Z drmeister: beach: If you are still on - I can compile a full Common Lisp system - including CLOS - that has been compiled with Cleavir/Clasp.
2015-03-29T18:26:17Z jackdaniel: Fare: yes you did, thanks
2015-03-29T18:26:20Z drmeister: The Cleavir code is currently compiling.   Once it's done I'll link everything together and try that.
2015-03-29T18:26:39Z Fare: or rather... the old API is bad if you want to follow the windows convention on windows — but maybe we should do the unix way on windows, too, because it makes more sense.
2015-03-29T18:26:54Z Fare: drmeister, congrats
2015-03-29T18:27:14Z Fare: drmeister, btw, does clasp have setenv like ecl? because you left it unimplemented inuiop
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2015-03-29T18:27:43Z Fare is desperately trying to convince rpg to release a 3.1.5
2015-03-29T18:28:52Z Shinmera should still write to the ASDF mailing list about making parse-dependency-def extensible
2015-03-29T18:29:33Z drmeister: Fare: I don't have setenv yet - I haven't needed it - it would only take a few minutes to add.  Hang on.
2015-03-29T18:30:11Z Fare: so should I store config and cache the windows way in appdata/local/common-lisp/config/ and appdata/local/common-lisp/cache/ or should I introduce a more unixy appdata/local/config/common-lisp/ and appdata/local/cache/common-lisp/ ?
2015-03-29T18:30:41Z Fare: drmeister: did you have to delete it from the ecl-inherited code?
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2015-03-29T18:34:41Z drmeister: Fare: setenv is implemented in the ECL C code - I don't use any of that.
2015-03-29T18:35:05Z Fare: oh. What are you reusing of ECL?
2015-03-29T18:35:13Z drmeister: The Common Lisp source code.
2015-03-29T18:35:44Z drmeister: I write my own C++ code that replicates the functionality of the ECL C code.
2015-03-29T18:35:55Z drmeister: The ECL C code is too tied to the ECL implementation.
2015-03-29T18:36:12Z Fare: so that's a relatively small part of ECL, then
2015-03-29T18:36:44Z drmeister: Do you mean that the Common Lisp code is a relatively small part of ECL?
2015-03-29T18:36:48Z Fare: that you're reusing.
2015-03-29T18:36:50Z Fare: yes
2015-03-29T18:36:56Z |3b|: Fare: could cache go under some temp dir on windows?
2015-03-29T18:37:14Z |3b| just wants to be lazy and not have to add another exclusion rule to backups :p
2015-03-29T18:37:35Z Shinmera: |3b|: iirc MS recommends AppData for user cache storage.
2015-03-29T18:38:03Z Fare: 3b: maybe. I thought about that, but it looks like TEMP might be a bit too aggressive in being flushed.
2015-03-29T18:38:32Z Fare: or not enough, but in any case, not the kind of persistence to be expected from a CL cache.
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2015-03-29T18:39:20Z Fare: Shinmera: does MS have a protocol to declare something as cache vs more importat data
2015-03-29T18:39:34Z drmeister: Fare: Yes - I used ~28,000 lines of ECL Common Lisp (ecl/src/lsp/*.lsp   ecl/src/clos/*.lsp)  and I don't use about ~65,000 lines of code (ecl/src/c/*  ecl/src/cmp/*.lsp)
2015-03-29T18:40:02Z Shinmera: Fare: I'm sorry to say that I don't know. I only googled around for a bit for cache locations and AppData seems to be it in Win7+
2015-03-29T18:40:08Z drmeister: So yes, I used a relatively small - but important - part of ECL.
2015-03-29T18:40:53Z Fare: Shinmera, yes, I found as much
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2015-03-29T19:59:10Z neckutrek: Hi! how can I enable parenmatching etc. for lisp code in emacs/slime/sbcl ?
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2015-03-29T19:59:37Z neckutrek: and where can I find the CL-USER> promt for running my functions that I have written in .lisp files?
2015-03-29T20:00:13Z aeth: neckutrek: by parenmatching do you mean ) when you type (?
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2015-03-29T20:01:06Z neckutrek: aeth, no when the cursor is placed on a parenthesis then the matchign paren is highlighted
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2015-03-29T20:04:33Z aeth: neckutrek: If you're using ParEdit, ) will do something similar to this. If you're in '(1 2 3 4 5) it jumps you to the end ) and highlights the first (
2015-03-29T20:06:01Z aeth: so in '(((((1 2 3 4 5))))) it will move the cursor to '(((((1 2 3 4 5)|)))) if you press ) and you're anywhere within that inside list
2015-03-29T20:06:17Z neckutrek: aeth: ok, thanks a lot!
2015-03-29T20:06:32Z aeth: hmm, it doesn't stay highlighted though so that might not quite be what you're looking for?
2015-03-29T20:06:46Z aeth: It is only for a few seconds
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2015-03-29T20:08:19Z neckutrek: I'm new to slime and I'm trying to learn its benefits of using it, since parenmatching was not happening when I'm editing my .lisp file I thought that slime might be turned off
2015-03-29T20:08:43Z |3b|: paren matching is a generic emacs feature, see http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ShowParenMode
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2015-03-29T20:16:29Z aeth: |3b|: ah thanks
2015-03-29T20:19:29Z aeth: Someone needs to make a hide-paren-mode as a joke... hides all the parens
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2015-03-29T20:25:45Z neckutrek: do you guys know how I can call the lisp-functions that I've written in a .lisp-file in emacs/slime?
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2015-03-29T20:26:52Z |3b|: aeth: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/DimParentheses ?
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2015-03-29T20:30:31Z Grue`: neckutrek: press C-c C-k to compile the file, or C-c C-c to compile individual function
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2015-03-29T20:31:47Z neckutrek: Grue`: does that produce an executable like a.out? I can't find anything in the folder of the source file..
2015-03-29T20:32:16Z neckutrek: I might not have a main function in the file I'm compiling though
2015-03-29T20:33:12Z Grue`: neckutrek: you're operating under assumption that Lisp is like C... which is incorrect
2015-03-29T20:33:29Z |3b|: CL is designed more for interactive use, where you start a lisp, then incrementally define/run things rather than building a single executable in 1 step
2015-03-29T20:33:32Z neckutrek: Yes, that's probably correct :)
2015-03-29T20:34:11Z Fare: neckutrek: you typed things at the slime REPL and expect them to be saved on disk? Nope.
2015-03-29T20:34:12Z |3b|: so when you start slime, it starts a lisp, then you can LOAD files, enter function definitions into the repl, etc
2015-03-29T20:34:46Z |3b|: C-c C-c compiles and evaluates a single form in a lisp file, for example defining a function
2015-03-29T20:35:19Z |3b|: after you do that, you can call that function from the repl (or from the lisp file with another C-c C-c on a top-level call to the function)
2015-03-29T20:36:22Z |3b|: C-c C-k will compile and load an entire file, after which you can call any functions defined in that file
2015-03-29T20:36:38Z neckutrek: ah ok, then where do I find the repl? I've checked the SLIME dropdown meny in emacs, and the buffers...
2015-03-29T20:36:56Z |3b|: if you have top-level forms other than definitions in that file, they will be evaluated when the file is loaded
2015-03-29T20:37:11Z neckutrek: ok
2015-03-29T20:37:13Z |3b|: you should have a buffer names something like *slime-repl ...*
2015-03-29T20:37:19Z |3b|: where ... depends on which lisp you are using
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2015-03-29T20:37:49Z |3b|: if you don't, you haven't configured slime to start a repl. easiest way to get a 'good slime config is to let quicklisp configure it for you
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2015-03-29T20:38:15Z |3b|: and you probably want quicklisp for automatically downloading libraries for you anyway
2015-03-29T20:38:24Z neckutrek: I only have *sldb sbcl/0* and *inferior-lisp* *
2015-03-29T20:38:34Z neckutrek: aha ok
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2015-03-29T20:40:11Z neckutrek: so loading a file is the same as compiling it?
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2015-03-29T20:41:01Z |3b|: no
2015-03-29T20:41:50Z |3b|: CL is a bit complicated in that area though, since you can compile things at runtime, and evaluate arbitrary user code during compilation
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2015-03-29T20:42:41Z |3b|: LOADing a file is more or less equivalent to entering each form in the file into the REPL (that is simplifying a bunch, since REPL does things LOAD doesn't, and LOAD does things REPL doesn't, but should give general idea)
2015-03-29T20:43:32Z |3b|: COMPILE-FILE creates a "compiled" version of the file, usuallyw ith an extension like .fasl or similar
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2015-03-29T20:43:57Z |3b|: "compile" in CL can mean anything from just expanding macros up to full optimization+compile to native code
2015-03-29T20:44:11Z |3b|: depending on the implementation and settings
2015-03-29T20:44:53Z |3b|: some implementations almost always compile things before evaluating them, in which case just LOADing might involve compilation as well
2015-03-29T20:45:10Z |3b|: others might just interpret the LOADed code directly
2015-03-29T20:45:45Z |3b|: or you can LOAD the .fasl file from COMPILE-FILE, and it will load the compiled code and evaluate that
2015-03-29T20:46:33Z neckutrek: ah ok. so loading a file is like evaluating its contents, while compiling generates an optimized .fasl file
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2015-03-29T20:52:19Z pjb: slime repl is optional. you only get it if you require it with slime-setup in your ~/.emacs ; I use: (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-xref-browser slime-asdf slime-banner slime-repl slime-indentation slime-fuzzy slime-autodoc slime-presentations slime-presentation-streams))
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2015-03-29T20:56:53Z neckutrek: I found: (add-to-list 'slime-contribs 'slime-repl) which I added to .emacs, but maybe that's not enough
2015-03-29T20:58:02Z neckutrek: pjb, even with that line in .emacs, reloading .emacs doesn't produce the *slime/repl* buffer...
2015-03-29T20:58:25Z |3b|: did you do M-x slime ?
2015-03-29T20:58:54Z |3b|: (where "M-x" is probably "alt-x")
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2015-03-29T20:59:47Z neckutrek: now I got it!
2015-03-29T21:00:03Z neckutrek: thanks! :)
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2015-03-29T21:01:44Z neckutrek: cool, I'm excited about coding now!
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2015-03-29T21:02:21Z pjb: |3b|: don't deal with probabilities: M-x IS ESC x  or  C-[ x
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2015-03-29T21:03:09Z bugrum: if you're on mac M-x is option-x (at least on Aquamacs that is what the default keybinding is set to)
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2015-03-29T21:04:22Z bugrum: on Linux, I'm pretty sure the default is alt-x (though you can also use ESC x since that is considered the Meta key as well)
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2015-03-29T21:05:06Z aeth: or you could just buy a keyboard with a meta key. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Symbolics-keyboard.jpg
2015-03-29T21:05:33Z aeth: I wonder if Linux has support for exotic keyboards
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2015-03-29T21:06:02Z jackdaniel: aeth: define exotic
2015-03-29T21:06:21Z pjb: bugrum: plain wrong!
2015-03-29T21:06:48Z pjb: bugrum: if you're on a mac, Meta is where you configured emacs to get it, and where you configured your keyboard to put option or command!
2015-03-29T21:06:53Z aeth: jackdaniel: historical keyboards that have strange modifiers like Meta instead of IBM PC keyboards
2015-03-29T21:06:53Z jackdaniel: it's a question of keymap, you can connect matrice of gpios and consider it a keyboard, but you have to map keys to symbols
2015-03-29T21:07:11Z jackdaniel: there is meta key, and many others
2015-03-29T21:07:26Z jackdaniel: afair symbols are defined in input.h in kernel sources
2015-03-29T21:07:36Z pjb: bugrum: in my case, with my configuration of keyboard and emacs, I get meta with the key that is unfortunately labelled "command". (Apple doesn't provide laptops with unmarked, unmisleading keyboards).
2015-03-29T21:07:52Z jackdaniel: and on top of that you can remap further, with even more customancry ;)
2015-03-29T21:08:15Z pjb: bugrum: and on Linux, I definitely DID NOT configure Meta to the the same key as Alt!  I have both and they are distinct!
2015-03-29T21:08:25Z pjb: bugrum: so you cannot be more wrong about the subject.
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2015-03-29T21:09:28Z |3b|: pjb: if you are worried about people remapping keys, "esc x" might be types with "caps-lock x" or some other random thing, same with C-[
2015-03-29T21:09:38Z bugrum: pjb: I'm just speaking of default keybindings and on Mac I added the premise that Aquamacs has option-x set as Meta-X since command-X means cut
2015-03-29T21:09:43Z jackdaniel: aeth: http://ix.io/hcv
2015-03-29T21:09:57Z bugrum: pjb: you can of course configure Emacs anyway you want it
2015-03-29T21:10:02Z pjb: Is it so hard to understand that keys have a place on the physical keyboard, have markings, have keycodes produced when pressed on, that those places and marking and keycodes can change from keyboard to keyboard, that the mapping between keycodes and keysyms can be changed and configured at will, and that applications like emacs can translate those keysyms at will???
2015-03-29T21:10:32Z pjb: And who talked about Aquamacs?  Any sane Mac user would use http://emacsformacosx.com not Aquamacs.
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2015-03-29T21:11:22Z aeth: jackdaniel: thanks, I see leftmeta and rightmeta
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2015-03-29T21:11:40Z jackdaniel: aeth: yw :)
2015-03-29T21:11:51Z jackdaniel: there is even key KEY_MACRO
2015-03-29T21:11:55Z aeth: now I just need to buy a keyboard with meta on it so that I can use alt for its intended purposes rather than to emulate meta :-p
2015-03-29T21:12:23Z |3b|: get an old windows keyboard and use windows keys for that?
2015-03-29T21:12:45Z Grue`: but alt-x is much easier to press than win-x
2015-03-29T21:12:55Z aeth: what is the Windows key in that file? I don't see "windows" or the generic "super" word I've seen before
2015-03-29T21:13:02Z pjb: Or get a blank keyboard so you're not misled by markings.
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2015-03-29T21:14:21Z aeth: oh wow the Windows key is actually "Meta", at least in KDE
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2015-03-29T21:14:49Z aeth: It doesn't not appear to be a real meta, though, at least in emacs. It says "s-x is undefined"
2015-03-29T21:15:05Z antoszka: that's super
2015-03-29T21:15:40Z antoszka: i'm running emacs on the mac mostly from iterm2, where you can define the left 'option' to send meta
2015-03-29T21:15:43Z aeth: antoszka: there is no key_super in the header file, so it must be something else, and interpreted as "Super" by GNOME and emacs, but as (a false) "Meta" by KDE
2015-03-29T21:16:11Z antoszka: and since i'm using a unicomp (model-m) it's in the expected location, just left of the space bar
2015-03-29T21:17:59Z jackdaniel: aeth: these are just a symbols, drivers often add it's own
2015-03-29T21:18:23Z jackdaniel: tf101 ie does something like: #define KEY_SUPER KEY_COMPOSE
2015-03-29T21:18:43Z aeth: ah, so it is super then
2015-03-29T21:18:44Z jackdaniel: asusec in a matter of fact, tf101 is a platform
2015-03-29T21:19:11Z jackdaniel: it's no more super then left alt is meta
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2015-03-29T21:22:57Z jackdaniel: I remember funny picture with lisp-guy sitting in front of two-keys keyboard '(' and ')', but can't find it in the internet :(
2015-03-29T21:24:19Z aeth: Those programs would be extremely long
2015-03-29T21:24:40Z aeth: They should at least also put a ' on that keyboard
2015-03-29T21:26:10Z jackdaniel: good night all \o
2015-03-29T21:29:32Z digiorgi: http://almaer.com/blog/uploads/interview-lisp.png
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2015-03-29T21:31:32Z pjb: digiorgi: :-)
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2015-03-29T21:38:36Z aeth: What's wrong with CLOS?
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2015-03-29T21:52:47Z Grue`: aeth: it would've been too easy with CLOS
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2015-03-29T21:57:19Z aeth: How does CLOS make it easier?
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2015-03-29T22:07:26Z aeth: Is there some example somewhere that makes this an inside joke that I am missing?
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2015-03-29T22:13:49Z aeth: Sorry for overanalyzing a webcomic, I just don't get the punchline, that's all.
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2015-03-29T22:18:03Z Fare: some lispers don't like clos
2015-03-29T22:18:11Z Fare: or love it too much
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2015-03-29T22:28:03Z digiorgi: (: if anybody wants see, here i have my home-made tail-call-optimization macro https://github.com/digiorgi/cl-functional/blob/master/tco.lisp
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2015-03-30T02:52:03Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-03-30T02:52:44Z akkad: hi beach
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2015-03-30T02:59:18Z vhlfd: hi akkad
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2015-03-30T03:08:17Z akkad: are there any old alpha targets for sbcl?
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2015-03-30T04:10:36Z ggole: clhs function
2015-03-30T04:10:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm
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2015-03-30T04:27:54Z asdffdas: lisp is fookin shite
2015-03-30T04:28:17Z Bike: gosh.
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2015-03-30T04:40:42Z Zhivago: asdffdas: Shash yao blubmingering, yer kugbluraghah.
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2015-03-30T04:52:33Z Adlai: is there any best/standard practice for rolling out new library bits in a separate asdf system?
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2015-03-30T04:54:10Z Adlai: specifically: i'm removing actor.lisp from scalpl, and putting it in chanl. i'm tempted just to dump it in the chanl system, but it seems more prudent to have it as a separate system, and wait for feedback from (any?) users before putting it in the main library
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2015-03-30T04:59:00Z Adlai: a more pertinent question might be, does anybody other than me actually use chanl :)
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2015-03-30T05:02:08Z aeth: Am I doing this right? You run it in the shell with sbcl --script and then you can pipe it in sbcl --script indefinitely. I think this is a quine. This is the shortest one I can think of (short of just removing the newline and the ~% in the source obviously)
2015-03-30T05:02:12Z aeth: (let ((text "(let ((text ~S)) (format t text text))~%")) (format t text text))
2015-03-30T05:02:28Z aeth: Other versions were more complicated until I found ~S
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2015-03-30T05:03:31Z aeth: I think a blank file might also work but that's no fun
2015-03-30T05:04:40Z aeth: Also it might not be implementation independent if it's a blank .lisp file
2015-03-30T05:05:42Z Adlai: -
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2015-03-30T05:47:38Z lieven: heh is there any progress on the open sourcing of Genera?
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2015-03-30T05:52:56Z beach: Is someone working on that?
2015-03-30T05:53:45Z lieven: I heard that the symbolics copyrights had fallen to the cl-http guy. But I may have misunderstood.
2015-03-30T05:53:58Z jackdaniel: I remember there were works, but somebody leaked source and they got pissed off, or something (unreliable info, I have barely a hint of reading this in my memory)
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2015-03-30T05:59:35Z jackdaniel: can't find it anywhere tough, probably memory corruption :)
2015-03-30T06:01:26Z jackdaniel: there is only one user/password for trac login on common-lisp.net, right? or each project keeps separate user database?
2015-03-30T06:01:49Z jackdaniel: /\/password/\/password per user/
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2015-03-30T06:05:42Z Phagus: Anyone recommend a reading/study list for a newbie aspiring to be a great Lisper?
2015-03-30T06:06:29Z Phagus: Presumably there's been several articles written on this
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2015-03-30T06:06:51Z Bike: minion: pcl
2015-03-30T06:06:52Z minion: pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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2015-03-30T06:09:48Z Phagus: I'm reading PCL currently. Any others?
2015-03-30T06:10:03Z Phagus: Also ahve Graham's ANSI Common Lisp lined up
2015-03-30T06:10:27Z beach: Phagus: After those, I recommend you read PAIP.
2015-03-30T06:10:41Z Bike: minion: graham crackers?
2015-03-30T06:10:41Z minion: graham crackers: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html
2015-03-30T06:10:45Z Bike: something to keep in mind
2015-03-30T06:11:01Z beach: Phagus: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming.  By Peter Norvig.
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2015-03-30T06:11:32Z beach: Phagus: Has not much to do with AI, but a lot with Common Lisp.
2015-03-30T06:11:40Z Phagus: Thanks
2015-03-30T06:11:49Z Bike: also that practice makes perfect, and lack of practice makes, uh, nothing
2015-03-30T06:12:10Z beach: Submitting code to #lisp is an interesting exercise too.
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2015-03-30T06:12:37Z Phagus: Of course. I'm still familiarizing myself with functional concepts
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2015-03-30T06:12:49Z Phagus: But coming from a Python/Ruby background, it's been very helpful
2015-03-30T06:12:51Z beach: Phagus: Most people here would recommend SBCL+Emacs+SLIME+Quicklisp in case you don't have anything installed yet.
2015-03-30T06:12:58Z Bike: we'll be all like, yo dawg, you wanna use two tabs, not three,
2015-03-30T06:13:08Z beach: Phagus: Common Lisp is not a very functional programming language.
2015-03-30T06:13:46Z beach: Time to get to work!
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2015-03-30T06:13:56Z Phagus: beach: Is that specific to Common Lisp, or Lisp in general?
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2015-03-30T06:14:51Z Bike: sbcl and slime and quicklisp are
2015-03-30T06:15:13Z Bike: "lisp in general" holds up about as well as "romantic languages in general" when you get specific w/it
2015-03-30T06:15:36Z Phagus: I see
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2015-03-30T06:16:09Z Phagus: I was reading that, Common Lisp is good for learning the language, and SBCL is what you'd use in a real production environment
2015-03-30T06:16:22Z Bike: that doesn't make sense. sbcl is an implementation of common lisp.
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2015-03-30T06:18:27Z Phagus: Oh well. It was on stack overflow, and I don't care to retrieve it
2015-03-30T06:19:19Z Bike: sbcl implements the common lisp standard, so stuff you learn about "common lisp" applies to programming in it. ccl is another good implementation.
2015-03-30T06:20:28Z Bike: it'd be like saying "C is good for learning the language, and you'd use llvm in a production environment", it's a category error.
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2015-03-30T07:17:22Z theos: CL was once very functional
2015-03-30T07:21:22Z lieven: theos: in what sense?
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2015-03-30T07:22:46Z theos: lieven it was a joke. CL can become anything that you want it to be.
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2015-03-30T07:23:40Z lieven: well, there is a sense in which you're right. having first class functions and closures was once at the cutting edge of being functional.
2015-03-30T07:24:17Z lieven: the benchmark for being a functional language has become stricter since then
2015-03-30T07:26:17Z jackdaniel: functional is more a state of mind, one can write functional code in C. Howerver CL surely makes things easier
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2015-03-30T07:27:30Z theos: people write functional code in java too <grin>
2015-03-30T07:28:28Z lieven: that's the blub fallacy. you can write anything in anything. but if the language is actively fighting you, you aren't going to do it for something like a reasonably sized project.
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2015-03-30T08:49:36Z Phagus: http://existentialcomics.com/comic/9
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2015-03-30T08:59:51Z jackdaniel: Phagus: good one :)
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2015-03-30T10:00:15Z d1ver: Hello, I am just starting to lean lisp.. Does anyone feel like critiquing my first program? I wrote a solution to this problem: https://code.google.com/codejam/contest/32016/dashboard#s=p0, code is up here: http://pastebin.com/u8kcRR5v
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2015-03-30T10:02:43Z SAL9000: d1ver: first thing that springs to mind is that PUSH prepends to a list rather than appending.
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2015-03-30T10:03:16Z SAL9000: if the ordering is important, you should NREVERSE the vecX,vecY lists after the DOTIMES loops.
2015-03-30T10:04:09Z d1ver: SAL9000: i noticed that, but it didnt mater in this case because I need to sort them anyways. Is there a better way to recursively build a list? I tried (setq foo (cons foo bar)) but it seemed to do the same thing
2015-03-30T10:04:35Z SAL9000: d1ver: that is indeed (for most intents and purposes) the same thing as PUSH.
2015-03-30T10:05:30Z SAL9000: your third DOTIMES in CALC-MIN-SCALAR may be written more idiomatically as a LOOP SUM.
2015-03-30T10:06:25Z SAL9000: (loop for i upto Len summing (* (pop vecX) (pop vecY)))
2015-03-30T10:08:13Z d1ver: that loop macro seems like black magic
2015-03-30T10:08:28Z d1ver: so many possiblilities
2015-03-30T10:08:49Z SAL9000: it's more functional-style than (dotimes (setq
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2015-03-30T10:09:21Z d1ver: This is my first brush with functional languages, I have a feeling this is a very "c" approach to lisp programming :P
2015-03-30T10:09:45Z SAL9000: ah.
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2015-03-30T10:10:33Z SAL9000: C-style lisp is possible, but if you want to stick to "mostly-functional-style", a good rule of thumb is that if you're doing a lot of SETF/SETQ, consider restructuring.
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2015-03-30T10:10:58Z d1ver: SAL9000: Thanks, thats good to know :)
2015-03-30T10:11:24Z SAL9000: not much point removing the (setq (sort))'s, but the DOTIMES loop can be made more functional using the LOOP macro as I mentioned earlier.
2015-03-30T10:12:24Z SAL9000: d1ver: also, calc-min-scalar as a whole is not fully functional; there's the unnecessary side effect of shifting the input stream position.
2015-03-30T10:12:27Z d1ver: I like that becuase it removes that entire 'result' variable
2015-03-30T10:13:14Z SAL9000: it doesn't really matter for short koans like this, but for larger-scale programs, it's generally a good idea to separate the I/O (non-functional, has side effects) from the calculations/decisions (functional, often idempotent)
2015-03-30T10:14:11Z SAL9000: in other words, (calc-min-scalar (read-vectors file))
2015-03-30T10:14:41Z SAL9000: that way you can debug the I/O stuff separately from the calculations, too.
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2015-03-30T10:15:15Z SAL9000: d1ver: also, since you know the length of your vectors, might be worth using actual vectors (fixed-length sequences as opposed to proper-lists)
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2015-03-30T10:15:49Z d1ver: I haven't got up to proper vectors in my readings yet
2015-03-30T10:15:56Z d1ver: will look into that
2015-03-30T10:16:25Z SAL9000: they're similar to C-style arrays
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2015-03-30T10:16:59Z SAL9000: on second thoughts, given that you're doing sorting, arrays may be less efficient. This is very much dependent on the implementation choice and the size of your data.
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2015-03-30T10:17:12Z zacts: hm.. cool
2015-03-30T10:17:30Z zacts: I wonder what kinds of applications one could replace a C project with lisp for?
2015-03-30T10:17:38Z DeadTrickster: SAL9000 is like HAL9000
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2015-03-30T10:17:52Z DeadTrickster: looks like he will kill us all here
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2015-03-30T10:18:11Z d1ver: as long as we don't try to unplug him we will be fine
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2015-03-30T10:18:14Z SAL9000: DeadTrickster: Have you read the books, or did you only watch the movie(s)?
2015-03-30T10:18:36Z DeadTrickster: only read but long long time ago
2015-03-30T10:19:07Z zacts: that movie Ex Machina looks interesting, an AI sci-fi thriller
2015-03-30T10:19:33Z SAL9000: pfft, googled to find a link explaining the difference between HAL and SAL... got mostly results about some guy who married a video game character.
2015-03-30T10:19:38Z SAL9000: faith in humanity: shaken
2015-03-30T10:19:57Z jackdaniel: (:
2015-03-30T10:20:14Z zacts: jackdaniel's liquor to save the day, and humanity
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2015-03-30T10:20:31Z d1ver: SAL9000: Thanks for the help!
2015-03-30T10:21:05Z SAL9000: d1ver: Glad to introduce another to the Lisp Side of the Force. :-)
2015-03-30T10:21:06Z zacts: anyway, I forgot what is the lisp newbies channel? I wanted to hang out there for a while too, while I'm learning my lispy languages
2015-03-30T10:21:10Z jackdaniel: d1ver: you can use do macro to accumulate results for first 2 dotimes in parallell
2015-03-30T10:21:23Z jackdaniel: parallell in meaning of code construct of course, not parallelism
2015-03-30T10:21:32Z SAL9000: ^^ or you can use the wonderful black magic of LOOP once more.
2015-03-30T10:21:45Z jackdaniel: whatever suits you more in fact
2015-03-30T10:21:56Z jackdaniel: both are turing-complete x]
2015-03-30T10:21:58Z SAL9000: ...although, no, we're both wrong.
2015-03-30T10:22:04Z SAL9000: because (read file)
2015-03-30T10:22:12Z jackdaniel: w8, ill annotate
2015-03-30T10:22:17Z jackdaniel: oh, its pastebin
2015-03-30T10:22:21Z jackdaniel: ill repaste in a sec
2015-03-30T10:22:58Z zacts: cool, I found it
2015-03-30T10:23:03Z zacts: #clnoobs on freenode
2015-03-30T10:23:13Z SAL9000: d1ver: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/
2015-03-30T10:23:13Z zacts: my search engine found it
2015-03-30T10:23:41Z zacts: hrm... I did get a physical copy of that book, which interestingly is a newer published edition than the online gigamonkeys one it seems.
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2015-03-30T10:23:53Z zacts: I wonder if it really is all that different, I have yet to read it though.
2015-03-30T10:23:54Z d1ver: SAL9000: That's what I've been -slowly- working through after work.. Still getting started
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2015-03-30T10:29:45Z jackdaniel: something like this http://ix.io/hd3/common-lisp
2015-03-30T10:30:00Z jackdaniel: no, not something like this, read file blushes
2015-03-30T10:30:03Z jackdaniel: sorry :D
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2015-03-30T10:31:41Z jackdaniel: SAL9000: you were right, ommited it even tough you said it explicitly
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2015-03-30T10:58:50Z jackdaniel: maybe something like that? http://ix.io/hd5/common-lisp
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2015-03-30T10:58:57Z SAL9000: jackdaniel: (loop for i upto (* Len 2) if (< i Len) collect (read file) into vec-x else collect (read file) into vec-y)
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2015-03-30T11:00:05Z jackdaniel: but its to do loops anyway
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2015-03-30T11:01:44Z SAL9000: well, you could use one of the "heap" implementations instead of the lists -- sort "incrementally" -- but that'd be overkill.
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2015-03-30T11:09:17Z jackdaniel: of course mentioned do-loops may be abstracted as simple function (read-list (length file) ...)
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2015-03-30T11:10:24Z jackdaniel: even should be
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2015-03-30T11:34:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: Lots of eq for comparing numbers in this old code.
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2015-03-30T11:55:49Z jackdaniel: right, I need to start writing = in such occasions
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2015-03-30T13:31:51Z pjb: -
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2015-03-30T13:32:58Z flip214: +
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2015-03-30T13:53:40Z DamienCassou: hi everyone
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2015-03-30T13:54:52Z DamienCassou: when I talk about CLOS, is it true to say that field initialization is at the field level (i.e., each field specifies how it should be initialized with :initform and :initarg) rather than at the constructor level (i.e., each constructor specifies a valid protocol to initialize the object)
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2015-03-30T13:57:09Z dlowe: it's not true.
2015-03-30T13:57:22Z jdz: DamienCassou: not really, there are methods which do the initialization (and use initforms/initargs), but it's the initialization protocol that's important
2015-03-30T13:58:05Z jdz: clhs 7.1
2015-03-30T13:58:05Z specbot: Object Creation and Initialization: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_a.htm
2015-03-30T13:59:11Z DamienCassou: I read most of it already
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2015-03-30T14:00:31Z oleo: hello
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2015-03-30T14:00:48Z jdz: it is pretty common to do the initalization of slots in INITTIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER method
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2015-03-30T14:05:18Z DamienCassou: how would you model a class Point with 2 field x and y, that can be initialized either with cartesian coordinates (x and y directly) or polar coordinates (x and y are extracted with math formulas from the rho and theta values) or complex coordinates (x and y are extracted from the complex)
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2015-03-30T14:07:12Z jdz: DamienCassou: why not have separate classes for those?
2015-03-30T14:07:31Z jdz: DamienCassou: i think it's a classic example of CHANGE-CLASS
2015-03-30T14:08:05Z DamienCassou: I agree with you that in the general case, additional classes is the most elegant solution
2015-03-30T14:08:27Z DamienCassou: but in the context of my work, I must understand how one would do it in CLOS without creating new classes
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2015-03-30T14:08:35Z jdz: but anyway, you'd do it by providing :x, :y, :rho and :theta initargs to INITALIZE-INSTANCE
2015-03-30T14:08:39Z DamienCassou: I didn't find a way
2015-03-30T14:08:42Z jdz: :AFTER method
2015-03-30T14:09:17Z DamienCassou: the end-user should be able to write (make-instance 'point :rho 123 :theta 321)
2015-03-30T14:09:28Z jdz: if :x and :y are present, you use cartesian coordinates, if :rho and :theta are provided -- polar coordinates
2015-03-30T14:09:29Z DamienCassou: and get a point with both x and y assigned
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2015-03-30T14:09:53Z jdz: yes, where's the problem?
2015-03-30T14:09:55Z DamienCassou: so you have to write code to check which parameters are provided in the expression?
2015-03-30T14:09:56Z dlowe would just write a function constructor so the user wouldn't even touch make-instance.
2015-03-30T14:10:22Z dlowe: what happens if the user does (make-instance 'point :x 5 :theta 39)?
2015-03-30T14:10:27Z DamienCassou: dlowe: agree with you but you hide the problem. I'm interesting in the problem itself
2015-03-30T14:11:16Z DamienCassou: dlowe: that was my next question for jdz. I guess the :after method must throw errors
2015-03-30T14:11:41Z dlowe: better to structure the interface that certain errors aren't possible :)
2015-03-30T14:12:28Z jdz: (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((p point) &key x y rho theta) (cond ((and x y) ...) ((and rho theta) ...) (t (error "invalid blah blah blah")))
2015-03-30T14:12:50Z DamienCassou: dlowe: I agree that writing nice functions to hide complexity is the solution, but that's not the point of my questions. I want to understand how these functions would be implemented
2015-03-30T14:13:15Z DamienCassou: jdz: perfect, thanks
2015-03-30T14:13:24Z jdz: DamienCassou: or one could check the args in :BEFORE method
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2015-03-30T14:14:39Z jdz: DamienCassou: another approach is :AROUND method, which would convert to the right initargs and CALL-NEXT-METHOD with those
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2015-03-30T14:17:50Z DamienCassou: this answers my question
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2015-03-30T14:20:24Z nyef: G'morning all.
2015-03-30T14:20:33Z jackdaniel: o/
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2015-03-30T14:23:33Z DamienCassou: thank you very much
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2015-03-30T14:28:12Z DamienCassou: jdz: if you create a subclass of point with its own field. I guess the initialize-instance after method would have to duplicate the keys specified in the method you propose?
2015-03-30T14:28:41Z jdz: it depends
2015-03-30T14:29:02Z jdz: because for the subclass the after method for the base class will already have been executed
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2015-03-30T14:29:43Z DamienCassou: really?
2015-03-30T14:29:52Z jdz: and no, you only have to put the initargs you use in the arglist
2015-03-30T14:29:53Z DamienCassou: that sounds strange
2015-03-30T14:29:58Z oleo: morning morning :)
2015-03-30T14:30:14Z jdz: what is strange?
2015-03-30T14:30:24Z DamienCassou: oh yes, because it is AFTER and not AROUND or BEFORE
2015-03-30T14:30:42Z jdz: well, duh!
2015-03-30T14:30:59Z DamienCassou: after methods are executed from least specific to most specific IIRC
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2015-03-30T14:31:10Z oleo: jep
2015-03-30T14:31:36Z pjb: DamienCassou: you could do something like: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146641
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2015-03-30T14:31:52Z pjb: Notice how complex numbers are readily very nice 2D-point representations.
2015-03-30T14:32:50Z pjb: DamienCassou: you could also wrap complex in a class like the others, notably if you want mutable points (complexes are not mutable).
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2015-03-30T14:33:38Z DamienCassou: pjb: what is the meaning of the point class in this snippet? It not defined as the base class of cartesian-point or polar-point
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2015-03-30T14:33:53Z pjb: Sorry, it was meant to be.
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2015-03-30T14:35:08Z DamienCassou: pjb: you just wrote this code?
2015-03-30T14:35:16Z pjb: DamienCassou: notice however that since methods are attached to generic function, there's little point in having abstract superclass.  It helps only testing for the type of object, but if you also accept eg. complex (or (vector 2) to be points), then you would rather define a type (deftype point () (or polar-point cartesian-point complex (vector 2)))
2015-03-30T14:35:18Z pjb: Yes.
2015-03-30T14:35:29Z DamienCassou: pjb: thank you very much. I appreciate the effort!
2015-03-30T14:35:30Z pjb: Now, if you wanted to allow mixing polar and cartesian initialization parameters, you would have the problem that certain combinations designate multiple solutions.
2015-03-30T14:35:54Z pjb: For example, :x 3 :rho 4  could have a positive or negative (sin theta).
2015-03-30T14:36:09Z DamienCassou: I understand
2015-03-30T14:36:52Z pjb: You can use &allow-other-keys in initialize-instance to be able to have different &key in different methods for different classes and subclasses.
2015-03-30T14:38:01Z pjb: Also, since the standard-object superclass of all classes is what performs the slot initialization by default, you generally want to keep it.  Therefore, it's not a good idea to try to signal an error in the initializer of an abstract class, because it would still be in the method chain for the initializers of the subclasses.
2015-03-30T14:38:15Z DamienCassou: this is a way to specify that a method only defines the keys it uses
2015-03-30T14:38:24Z pjb: Yes.
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2015-03-30T14:40:03Z pjb: DamienCassou: notice how I wrote methods for complex.  This is a nice way to use CLOS, you don't always have to define classes.  Depending on why you need those points for, you may prefer such a more basic representation.
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2015-03-30T14:42:32Z DamienCassou: pjb: yes, I noticed. That's a nice feature of CLOS and I appreciate the design.
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2015-03-30T14:43:50Z pjb: Actually, in application, it's rare for an abstract class not to have a set of generic methods, so it's not a bad idea to have abstract superclass in general.
2015-03-30T14:44:10Z pjb: s/generic methods/general methods/
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2015-03-30T14:44:50Z pjb: The best cases are when most of the methods are for the abstract classes, and only a few specific methods are defined for the concrete subclasses.
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2015-03-30T14:45:23Z DamienCassou: agree
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2015-03-30T14:47:40Z electrojustin: nooby question, how could I get a macro to expand inside of a macro in common lisp?
2015-03-30T14:48:28Z Bike: macroexpand
2015-03-30T14:48:35Z oGMo: electrojustin: your macro merely needs to expand to have that macro
2015-03-30T14:49:09Z electrojustin: oGMo: it already does, but for some reason clisp keeps trying to treat it like a lambda?
2015-03-30T14:49:21Z oGMo: (defmacro a ...)  (defmacro b ... `(... (a ...)))
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2015-03-30T14:49:41Z oGMo: electrojustin: link to code?
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2015-03-30T14:51:19Z pjb: You can use ext:expand-form in clisp to see the form with all macros expanded.
2015-03-30T14:52:08Z electrojustin: alright, the relevant code looks like: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146643
2015-03-30T14:52:28Z electrojustin: where if-in-bounds and if-not-same-side are macros
2015-03-30T14:53:06Z Bike: what do you mean "treat it like a lambda"?
2015-03-30T14:53:08Z pjb: Then it's relevant!
2015-03-30T14:53:15Z pjb: Why didn't you paste their definitions too?
2015-03-30T14:53:22Z electrojustin: good point
2015-03-30T14:53:27Z electrojustin: should I just annotate it?
2015-03-30T14:53:32Z pjb: yes
2015-03-30T14:55:21Z electrojustin: alright, annotations with the exact error and the other macro definitions http://paste.lisp.org/display/146643#2
2015-03-30T14:55:56Z oGMo: it's your (,else-clause) etc
2015-03-30T14:55:59Z oGMo: no ()
2015-03-30T14:56:18Z electrojustin: oh
2015-03-30T14:56:30Z electrojustin: oh I see
2015-03-30T14:56:39Z Bike: yeah, it's expanding to something like (if (or ...) ((if-not-same-side ...))) so it wants that inner one to be a lambda form, since that's the only way it makes sense.
2015-03-30T14:56:45Z electrojustin: i should only expand the else clause if it exists
2015-03-30T14:56:51Z Bike: maybe you meant for there to be a progn?
2015-03-30T14:56:55Z Bike: that doesn't matter.
2015-03-30T14:56:59Z oGMo: electrojustin: no, you should not have (,else-clause), just ,else-clause
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2015-03-30T14:57:51Z pjb: Notice that the default default for &optional (and &key) is NIL, therefore for an else, it resoves to the same thing: (if a b) and (if a b nil) are identical.
2015-03-30T14:58:28Z electrojustin: oh ok, so i don't even need to break out of the backquote and write an if statement since they're identical
2015-03-30T14:58:50Z pjb: If you really want an additionnal set of parentheses in code, then indeed, you can always use progn `(progn ,else-clause) would be correct.  But then, (progn a) and a are equivalent.
2015-03-30T14:59:51Z electrojustin: alright, it moves on to a different error that I actually understand. thanks for the help!
2015-03-30T15:00:38Z pjb: electrojustin: http://paste.lisp.org/+355F/3
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2015-03-30T15:15:29Z Cymew: Anyone care to tell me what I've misunderstood about LOOP syntax that makes this look run forever instead of stopping at the WHEN? http://paste.lisp.org/display/146645
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2015-03-30T15:16:18Z Cymew: a = 200, b = 375, c = 425 evalute to T
2015-03-30T15:17:18Z ggole: c doesn't change
2015-03-30T15:17:54Z ggole: Unless I'm reading this wrong
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2015-03-30T15:18:44Z Bike: c changes.
2015-03-30T15:18:50Z Cymew: Doesn't it? Unless a and b are static, c must change
2015-03-30T15:19:05Z fe[nl]ix_: hi hlavaty :)
2015-03-30T15:19:09Z ggole: Never mind, I'm thinking of with
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2015-03-30T15:19:32Z hlavaty: hi fe[nl]ix_
2015-03-30T15:19:42Z Cymew: Shoot, now I must have pasted the wrong stuff, since that junk does not look like my previous evaluation
2015-03-30T15:19:49Z Cymew: I hate LOOP, it's such a mess
2015-03-30T15:20:25Z Bike: are you sure it loops forever? i think it works, it's just slow.
2015-03-30T15:20:34Z Bike: i mean, you need 200000 iterations to get up to a = 200.
2015-03-30T15:21:17Z Bike: oh, i take it back, the problem is you didn't put a stop condition on b.
2015-03-30T15:21:21Z ggole: Does the inner loop terminate?
2015-03-30T15:21:22Z ggole: Right
2015-03-30T15:21:36Z nyef: Now, a sufficiently smart compiler could...
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2015-03-30T15:21:47Z Bike: loop for b from 1 upto 1000
2015-03-30T15:22:07Z ggole:     (loop for b from 1 to 1000 returns almost instantly
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2015-03-30T15:22:45Z Cymew: Please ignore, I not only constantly stumble on LOOP syntax, I must have pasted something wrong, since it looks different than the stuff I just evaluted. Polluted environment.
2015-03-30T15:23:06Z Cymew: If only DO was not just even worse...
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2015-03-30T15:23:57Z nyef: Ugh, yeah, I have to look up DO syntax almost every time I see it.
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2015-03-30T15:24:16Z fe[nl]ix_: nyef: you should use it more
2015-03-30T15:24:37Z nyef: Why? What's the advantage over using LOOP or DOLIST?
2015-03-30T15:24:45Z nyef: (Or DOTIMES?)
2015-03-30T15:26:22Z ggole: You get to lord it over people who have forgotten how to use do
2015-03-30T15:26:28Z Petit_Dejeuner: ^
2015-03-30T15:26:32Z Petit_Dejeuner: works with loop to
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2015-03-30T15:28:15Z fe[nl]ix_: nyef: it's more concise, IMO works better with unusual iterations
2015-03-30T15:28:53Z electrojustin: is it considered bad practice to have a method without a corresponding generic?
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2015-03-30T15:29:28Z fe[nl]ix_: electrojustin: you mean without a previous DEFGENERIC ?
2015-03-30T15:30:00Z electrojustin: fe[nl]ix_: yes
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2015-03-30T15:30:40Z fe[nl]ix_: not quite "bad", but for documentation purposes it's better to have a DEFGENERIC too
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2015-03-30T17:06:31Z PuercoPop: Besides apply is there an easy way to 'splice' a list?
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2015-03-30T17:08:01Z dim: ,@ in a ` context
2015-03-30T17:08:20Z dim: list* if it's the last one
2015-03-30T17:08:31Z dim: (list* 1 2 (list 3 4)) is  (1 2 3 4)
2015-03-30T17:08:58Z Bike: ...append?
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2015-03-30T17:10:36Z dim: it's (append (list 1 2) (list 3 4)), dunno if that matches "splice"
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2015-03-30T17:13:02Z PuercoPop: yeah append, doesn't 'splice', ` ,@ could work. I think I'll just stay with apply as it is less heavy handed
2015-03-30T17:13:37Z Bike: i have no idea what you mean by splicing then.
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2015-03-30T17:16:08Z oleo: or .,
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2015-03-30T17:17:41Z PuercoPop: basically what ,@ does, to 'spread' a list in the enclosing form for lack of better words, I've found multiple-value-call for this case
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2015-03-30T17:19:15Z Bike: ,@ is part of ` constructing a list. `(4 ,@(foo) 5) is equivalent to (append '(4) (foo) '(5)).
2015-03-30T17:19:17Z jasom: PuercoPop: give an example of what you mean to "splice"
2015-03-30T17:19:18Z oleo: (setf a '(1 2)) (list 1 2 `(,@a)) `(,@a)
2015-03-30T17:20:05Z jasom: maybe (setf (subseq ...) ...) ?
2015-03-30T17:20:06Z PuercoPop: what I want is to use the two values a function returns to be used in two successive ~S in format. So something (format t "~S - ~S" (mv-foo))
2015-03-30T17:20:44Z jasom: PuercoPop: that sounds like multiple-value-call
2015-03-30T17:20:48Z Bike: if they're values rather than a list, use m-v-c, yeah.
2015-03-30T17:20:52Z dim: (let ((l (list 3 4))) (list 1 2 `(,@l))) is not (1 2 3 4)
2015-03-30T17:21:22Z jasom: PuercoPop: you may need to use VALUES if you are calling a function which may return multiple values that you only want one value from
2015-03-30T17:22:15Z jasom: e.g. (multiple-value-call #'format t "~S ~S ~S" (values (i-only-want-one-value-from-this-function)) (i-want-both-values-from-this-function))
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2015-03-30T17:22:23Z oleo: `(1 2 ,@a 3 4)
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2015-03-30T17:23:54Z PuercoPop: yeah, m-v-c was just what I was looking for. thanks
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2015-03-30T18:32:18Z vitamins_: if I want to use a lisp library, but I only want to import certain functions, but not the entire library, is there a way to do this? For example, Clojure has functionality where you can specify an :only keyword and you can grab only those specific functions. Example: (:use [clojure.string :only [trim lower-case split]]) would grab only the trim, lower-case, and split functions
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2015-03-30T18:32:55Z pjb: vitamins_: you can import only the symbols you want.
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2015-03-30T18:33:24Z pjb: (defpackage "YOUR-PROGRAM" (:import-from "COMMON-LISP" "DEFUN" "CONS" "CAR" "CDR" "IF" "NULL")) …
2015-03-30T18:33:50Z vitamins_: awesome! thanks pjb
2015-03-30T18:34:24Z pjb: vitamins_: notice the total disconnect between the words you used and the answer I gave.
2015-03-30T18:34:56Z pjb: vitamins_: a lisp library would be enbodied as an ASDF system, loaded by asdf (or downloaded and loaded by quicklisp).
2015-03-30T18:35:11Z pjb: vitamins_: a lisp system could define zero, one or more packages exporting symbols.
2015-03-30T18:35:30Z pjb: vitamins_: further a lisp system could define functions, types, classes, variables named by those symbols.
2015-03-30T18:36:20Z pjb: vitamins_: eventually, you could define package using other packages, (ie, where you can easily access symbols exported from those other packages), or import packages from other packages, as I just demonstrated.
2015-03-30T18:36:53Z pjb: vitamins_: this is quite far form the notion of unix "library" (they could be accessed using CFFI).
2015-03-30T18:37:14Z pjb: vitamins_: and both can be quite far from the semantics of clojure "libraries".
2015-03-30T18:39:24Z pjb: so remember: CL has symbols interned in packages.  CL can compile and load files that define things and evaluate expressions (define functions, variables, etc, and packages).  System is a construction defined by a "library" in CL. Currently, we use ASDF to define systems.  Those are set of files to be loaded along with dependencies rules between those files and with other systems.  Quicklisp maintains a set of asdf systems ready for dow
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2015-03-30T18:42:30Z H4ns: vitamins_: see the :import-from clause of defpackage http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/mac_defpackage.html
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2015-03-30T18:45:01Z pjb: Well, "implementations might allow extended options", and you can write your own defpackage macro.
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2015-03-30T20:58:04Z Slothel: anyone seen sbcl set up without a config directory? all I have is the executable
2015-03-30T20:58:21Z Slothel: I need to require asdf-install but it can't find the module obv because there's no directory..
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2015-03-30T20:58:36Z Bicyclidine: asdf install is obsolete.
2015-03-30T20:58:44Z Bicyclidine: what are you trying to install?
2015-03-30T20:58:53Z jasom: Slothel: you can also load asdf.lisp to get asdf up and running
2015-03-30T20:59:11Z Slothel: Bicyclidine: Trying to get hunchentoot working
2015-03-30T20:59:33Z jasom: Slothel: the preferred method for getting hunchentoot is via quicklisp these days
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2015-03-30T20:59:50Z Bicyclidine: what the heck, does hunchentoot's page still recommend asdf-install
2015-03-30T20:59:55Z Slothel: jason: Oh, ok. I was following a guide that I guess was written pre-Quicklisp
2015-03-30T20:59:57Z Xach: I don't think it does.
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2015-03-30T21:00:08Z Slothel: It was regarding setting up hunchentoot with apache
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2015-03-30T21:00:19Z jasom: http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
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2015-03-30T21:00:38Z Bicyclidine: yeah, it doesn't. says asdf and "Zach Beane's excellent Quicklisp system"
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2015-03-30T21:29:55Z francogrex: (format t "~vd" (1- most-negative-fixnum) 1234) => error in FORMAT: The value of mincol is -536870913, should be a non-negative integer ?
2015-03-30T21:30:19Z Xach: francogrex: what did you expect to happen?
2015-03-30T21:30:28Z francogrex: "1234"
2015-03-30T21:30:34Z Bicyclidine: Why, exactly?
2015-03-30T21:30:44Z francogrex: ansi-tests
2015-03-30T21:31:17Z Bicyclidine: the first argument to ~d is a count of columns to space in. obviously it being negative doesn't make sense.
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2015-03-30T21:31:37Z Bicyclidine: er, the minimum column width, whatever.
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2015-03-30T21:34:40Z Bicyclidine: it is in ansi tests, but i don't see why.
2015-03-30T21:34:55Z pjb: Bicyclidine: the way it's specified, it should not matter if it's 0 or negative, it will do the same as 0.
2015-03-30T21:35:19Z francogrex: yes that's what I predicted from the specs hence it being a test
2015-03-30T21:35:21Z pjb: It is a minimum, so if the data needs more columns, it will get it.
2015-03-30T21:35:33Z pjb: When it's negative, the data always will need more columns.
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2015-03-30T21:36:41Z Bicyclidine: i guess that makes sense.
2015-03-30T21:37:13Z pjb: In general, lisp tries to avoid signaling useless errors.  Eg. (car nil) -> nil.
2015-03-30T21:37:54Z Bicyclidine: well, it's an easy fix, if it's a fix.
2015-03-30T21:38:22Z Bicyclidine: should the fourth argument being negative matter either
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2015-03-30T21:40:33Z pjb: It's harder to define.  For example, groups of 0 digits are "" and "" occurs an infinite number of times between the digits of "12" therefore it could mean that you want an infinite number of commas after the 1.
2015-03-30T21:41:09Z Bicyclidine: that seems... doubtful
2015-03-30T21:41:15Z pjb: I would consider therefore that an implicit (or null (integer 1)) type exists for comma-interval.
2015-03-30T21:41:34Z Bicyclidine: well, sbcl does do that.
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2015-03-30T21:43:25Z shovel_boss_: what requires more mind power
2015-03-30T21:43:29Z shovel_boss_: programming or math
2015-03-30T21:43:36Z Bicyclidine: anyway, deleting the sexp at L177 that signals the error is all you have to fix it. (format nil "~vd" (1- most-negative-fixnum) 1234) => "1234"
2015-03-30T21:43:46Z pjb: shovel_boss_: comparing programming and maths.
2015-03-30T21:43:54Z Bicyclidine: at l177 of code/target-format.lisp. i guess that's an important thing to mention
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2015-03-30T21:44:06Z shovel_boss_: pjp please do
2015-03-30T21:44:16Z pjb: Use your own mind power!
2015-03-30T21:44:29Z shovel_boss_: i have no power
2015-03-30T21:44:42Z pjb: then you can't afford asking those questions.
2015-03-30T21:44:46Z pjb: Ask cheaper questions.
2015-03-30T21:44:47Z francogrex: it's math. ask no more
2015-03-30T21:44:55Z shovel_boss_: francogrex: thanks
2015-03-30T21:45:42Z francogrex: but as an aside you may need therapy
2015-03-30T21:46:17Z shovel_boss_: francogrex: i take full offense from that
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2015-03-30T21:49:33Z Slothel: I can feel the synapses atrophying in my head
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2015-03-30T21:53:44Z shovel_boss_: has anyone here read the bible
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2015-03-30T21:54:16Z Xach: shovel_boss_: please discuss such things elsewhere
2015-03-30T21:54:19Z pjb: This is not the topic.
2015-03-30T21:54:25Z pjb: shovel_boss_: you may try #lispcafe
2015-03-30T21:54:30Z shovel_boss_: i mean this thing http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html
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2015-03-30T21:54:39Z pjb: again, not the topic.
2015-03-30T21:54:48Z pjb: type /topic
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2015-03-30T21:55:07Z Xach: This channel is for Common Lisp.
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2015-03-30T21:56:25Z shovel_boss_: i do not see the difference between the lisps :')
2015-03-30T21:57:30Z Xach: When you do, feel free to come back here to discuss Common Lisp.
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2015-03-30T21:59:55Z pjb: shovel_boss_: Have a look at (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme) http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/
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2015-03-30T22:20:00Z jasom: pjb: even that significantly masks the differences
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2015-03-30T22:20:30Z pjb: that's the point, indeed.
2015-03-30T22:21:03Z pjb: Don't use bignums, because elisp doesn't have them. don't use call/cc because CL doesn't have it, etc.
2015-03-30T22:21:07Z jasom: pjb: I mean to say rather that code that produces visibly identical results in r5rs and lisp still has differences
2015-03-30T22:21:52Z pjb: jasom: you should only consider the application specific code section.
2015-03-30T22:21:53Z DeadTrickster: do we have production ready postgresql driver?
2015-03-30T22:22:04Z DeadTrickster: whatever production ready means
2015-03-30T22:22:09Z pjb: yes
2015-03-30T22:22:10Z jasom: DeadTrickster: postmodern?
2015-03-30T22:22:41Z DeadTrickster: yeah I saw it
2015-03-30T22:22:51Z DeadTrickster: last news item was in 2012
2015-03-30T22:23:03Z pjb: so what?
2015-03-30T22:23:38Z DeadTrickster: hmm good question
2015-03-30T22:24:09Z jasom: there were commits as recent as 10/2014 it looks like
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2015-03-30T22:27:50Z DeadTrickster: ok i'll give it a try thanks
2015-03-30T22:28:18Z DeadTrickster: I hope nothing fundamentally changed in protocol etc
2015-03-30T22:29:37Z jasom: DeadTrickster: enough people are using postmodern that it likely would have been noticed
2015-03-30T22:30:20Z DeadTrickster: of course for small projects i would like to use something more built-in like ets or mnesia from erlang world
2015-03-30T22:30:34Z jasom: Aside from the fact that I know many people use it, I count 8 different commit authors in the past year
2015-03-30T22:31:58Z jasom: DeadTrickster: you may like something like cl-prevalence then
2015-03-30T22:32:11Z jasom: though it's definitely not as well used as postmodern
2015-03-30T22:33:06Z DeadTrickster: what really makes me sad is the fact that we are saying here that CL project healthy because it has 8 contributors in the past year
2015-03-30T22:33:19Z DeadTrickster: or it's just well done )
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2015-03-30T22:35:14Z jasom: even for non-CL projects 8 contributors is a good sign of health
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2015-03-30T22:35:53Z jasom: it's not e.g. as much as postgres itself, but many perfectly good open-source projects are run with just one or two contributors
2015-03-30T22:36:30Z DeadTrickster: well if you look at ruby or node.js people
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2015-03-30T22:37:11Z jasom: I think I only have one project that is even used by 8 people
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2015-03-30T22:38:01Z DeadTrickster: It very amusing fact: when someone [re]invents language people spend astronomical time to rewrite everything using it
2015-03-30T22:38:44Z DeadTrickster: like C and FFI is not enough )
2015-03-30T22:38:45Z jasom: DeadTrickster: well non-painful and performant calling between languages is still an unsolved problem
2015-03-30T22:39:57Z jasom: C and FFI is absolutely not enough, when it can be particularly hard to determine who owns what pointers.  If someone wrote something in a language with managed memory, and I want to call it from lisp, there's no good way to do it.
2015-03-30T22:40:55Z jasom: there are occasionally some not-too-terrible ways to do it, (see e.g. FOIL) but there's always tradeoffs
2015-03-30T22:41:09Z oGMo: rpc
2015-03-30T22:41:12Z DeadTrickster: year I tried to integrate mono and sbcl
2015-03-30T22:41:29Z jasom: oGMo: which fails both non-painful and performant, depending on how you ask :)
2015-03-30T22:41:36Z DeadTrickster: it actually worked, I even was able to create gtk window and stuff
2015-03-30T22:41:57Z DeadTrickster: but then it goes like boom nullpointer out from nowhere
2015-03-30T22:41:59Z jasom: DeadTrickster: sbcl plays very poorly with other runtimes
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2015-03-30T22:42:16Z jasom: DeadTrickster: it wants to handle certain signals that both the JVM and mono also want to handle
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2015-03-30T22:42:30Z DeadTrickster: it was unable to start until I done something with interruptions
2015-03-30T22:42:58Z DeadTrickster: then I discovered signal handler chains
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2015-03-30T22:43:25Z jasom: oGMo: and rpc fails in some ways at both being "non-painful" and "performant"
2015-03-30T22:43:37Z DeadTrickster: apart from random nullppointers it worked quite well actually
2015-03-30T22:44:05Z DeadTrickster: except funny part - terminal stopped echoing after first Console.ReadLine call
2015-03-30T22:44:34Z jasom: DeadTrickster: I managed to get GTKSharp working via a FOIL server (though I had to modify FOIL quite a bit for it; it uses non-case-sensitive names and at least one part of GTKSharp had a method named "New"
2015-03-30T22:45:16Z DeadTrickster: I managed to ran MonoDevelop inside SBCL process what an achievement =)
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2015-03-30T22:45:51Z DeadTrickster: but I was using raw C API, very ugly thing
2015-03-30T22:46:02Z DeadTrickster: and of course poorly documented
2015-03-30T22:46:06Z jasom: right
2015-03-30T22:46:51Z DeadTrickster: anyway it was a lot of fun, maybe I will return to this stuff someday
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2015-03-30T22:47:14Z jasom: wheras I had things like tab-completion and documentation of argument names and types in slime
2015-03-30T22:47:23Z jasom: but the performance was mediocre
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2015-03-30T22:48:05Z DeadTrickster: emacs performance?
2015-03-30T22:48:21Z jasom: no performance at the lisp/CLR interface
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2015-03-30T22:48:50Z DeadTrickster: not surprise all that marshaling and other memory stuff
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2015-03-30T22:48:55Z jasom: I also had a 200MB .fasl as part of it, which took a while to load *sigh*
2015-03-30T22:49:19Z DeadTrickster: I can imaging that
2015-03-30T22:49:45Z DeadTrickster: we are using sbcl for one of our projects
2015-03-30T22:50:00Z DeadTrickster: binary size is about the same
2015-03-30T22:50:51Z DeadTrickster: I'm always thinking about the relation between codebase size and binary size
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2015-03-30T22:51:04Z DeadTrickster: looks like binary grows faster
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2015-03-30T22:56:39Z electrojustin: could I use coerce to basically do the equivalent of atoi?
2015-03-30T22:56:49Z jasom: electrojustin: no, you want parse-integer
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2015-03-30T22:57:06Z electrojustin: alright. thanks!
2015-03-30T22:57:16Z electrojustin: wait hang on
2015-03-30T22:57:22Z electrojustin: i meant the other way around
2015-03-30T22:57:48Z electrojustin: number to string, not string to number
2015-03-30T22:58:07Z jasom: electrojustin: for that, use princ-to-string or format
2015-03-30T22:58:32Z jasom: and atoi == ASCII to Integer
2015-03-30T22:58:42Z DeadTrickster: what will be faster?
2015-03-30T22:58:48Z DeadTrickster: princ-to-string?
2015-03-30T22:59:06Z electrojustin: I'm printing it all out anyway, might as well just use format
2015-03-30T22:59:16Z jasom: DeadTrickster: I would expect them to be similar on sbcl; it does compile-time generation of formatters from string constants
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2015-03-30T22:59:56Z DeadTrickster: I read somewhere sbcl can convert format to concatenate 'string in some cases
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2015-03-30T23:00:51Z DeadTrickster: although I'm not sure what heuristics behind this
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2015-03-30T23:06:26Z jasom: just measured; performance is identical on a simple test between format nil "~D" and princ-to-string
2015-03-30T23:06:51Z jasom: with type of the argument declared to be an integer
2015-03-30T23:08:23Z jasom: though it was slightly hard to get sbcl to actually generate code for both in a microbenchmark
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2015-03-30T23:19:38Z Slothel: I realize this may not be the appropriate channel to ask this question in but I don't really know what *would
2015-03-30T23:19:52Z Slothel: Is there a way to let my programs communicate with other programs
2015-03-30T23:20:03Z Slothel: for instance if I'm writing a C program that I want to be able to communicate with chrome
2015-03-30T23:20:06Z Slothel: much like a regular user would
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2015-03-30T23:41:34Z whartung: no, it's not germane, but…do you mean things like mouse click and keyboard events Slothel
2015-03-30T23:43:15Z Slothel: whartung: yes, essentially just trying to grab info from a page you've visited and use it on a form in another tab of the same browser
2015-03-30T23:43:17Z Slothel: is what I'm trying to do
2015-03-30T23:43:49Z whartung: that would probably best be done with a browser plugin for that particular browser.
2015-03-30T23:43:55Z electrojustin: ^
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2015-03-30T23:50:17Z pjb: or by sending the get and post http request directly. Why go thru a web browser?
2015-03-30T23:50:25Z jasom: Slothel: now, if you need to know how to do it for lispkit, then that would be on topic for this channel
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2015-03-30T23:53:07Z Slothel: pjb: I'm attempting to write a simple script that will scrape a certain text from a salesforce page and add it to a google docs sheet, where all of the employees that would use this script use chrome to acces
2015-03-30T23:53:18Z Slothel: pjb: So I didn't think there was a better way than to use the browser itself
2015-03-30T23:54:33Z electrojustin: using the browser itself might be among the hardest options
2015-03-30T23:54:35Z whartung: you could probably do that with a javascript browser plugin. Google docs spreadsheets have a rest api
2015-03-30T23:55:06Z whartung: steal the data from the proper DOM points and shove them up to Google using their API.
2015-03-30T23:55:16Z whartung: that's either an afternoon of work, or impossible :) lol
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2015-03-31T00:00:05Z jasom just used prog2 and feels slightly dirty
2015-03-31T00:01:51Z whartung: prog2 evaluates first-form, then second-form, and then forms, yielding as its only value the primary value yielded by first-form. -- is that a typo at the end from the CLHS?
2015-03-31T00:02:16Z jasom hopes so
2015-03-31T00:03:20Z _death: http://cliki.net/Issue%20PROG2-RETURN-VALUE
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2015-03-31T00:10:22Z _death: for your proggy pleasure: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146669
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2015-03-31T00:13:23Z _death: especially nice is (progk -1 'hehe)
2015-03-31T00:14:42Z jasom: okay, that took way too long to debug; I forgot to add parentheses to my register groups in cl-ppcre:register-groups-bind, and with DEBUG set to 3, the only error I got was "index out of bounds ..." with a backtrace of  0: (SB-IMPL::OPTIMIZED-DATA-VECTOR-REF #<unavailable argument> #<unavailable argument>) followed by the function that used register-groups-bind
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2015-03-31T01:06:25Z electrojustin: ...is it possible to name a lambda?
2015-03-31T01:06:47Z akkad: named lambda?
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2015-03-31T01:06:49Z electrojustin: I realize that's a bit counterproductive, but I'd like to (ab)use closures
2015-03-31T01:06:51Z jasom: electrojustin: alexandria has a named-lambda
2015-03-31T01:06:51Z Bike: just so it prints a name when you look at it in the repl?
2015-03-31T01:06:56Z akkad: like an unfree gift? or a untrue fact?
2015-03-31T01:07:05Z Bike: alexandria has named-lambda, it just does a labels.
2015-03-31T01:07:14Z jasom: oh
2015-03-31T01:07:15Z Bike: (label ((name (...) ...)) #'name)
2015-03-31T01:07:56Z jasom has abused keyword argument passing to make figuring out which lambda is called before
2015-03-31T01:08:17Z jasom: but sbcl has gotten a lot better at reporting where lambdas come from
2015-03-31T01:08:36Z jasom: &key :this-is-the-name-for-debugging-purposes &allow-other-keys
2015-03-31T01:09:37Z Xach: when some code and an environment love each other very much...
2015-03-31T01:10:50Z electrojustin: oh i bet if I just...
2015-03-31T01:11:07Z jasom: electrojustin: you still haven't told us what you want to do
2015-03-31T01:11:59Z electrojustin: you know what, I don't know what I want to do
2015-03-31T01:12:10Z electrojustin: for some reason I'd really like to define this lambda inside of a let*
2015-03-31T01:12:21Z electrojustin: but that's stupid now that I think for more than 2 seconds
2015-03-31T01:12:27Z jasom: how about (let* ... (defun ...))
2015-03-31T01:12:44Z electrojustin: jasom: you can do that? Do closures still work?
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2015-03-31T01:12:52Z jasom: electrojustin: yes
2015-03-31T01:13:18Z jasom: there are probably limitations placed on the compiler when DEFUN isn't a top level form... I'd need to read over the spec to refresh my memory
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2015-03-31T01:15:28Z jasom: electrojustin: but if you read the spec for defun, you'll see it's specified to establish a global-name for a function specified by a lambda expression
2015-03-31T01:15:33Z jasom: it's lambdas all the way down
2015-03-31T01:15:35Z jasom: clhs defun
2015-03-31T01:15:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defun.htm
2015-03-31T01:16:57Z jasom: you can also do (setf (symbol-function 'foo) (lambda ...)) but you need to ensure the function is declared notinline in that case
2015-03-31T01:17:15Z electrojustin: god dammit. i've been spelling lambda wrong, that's why this isn't working
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2015-03-31T01:23:39Z electrojustin: for the record, it looks like you can just (let* ((name #'(lambda ...))) ...)
2015-03-31T01:23:52Z akkad: λΛλ
2015-03-31T01:24:04Z electrojustin: assuming you spell lambda "lambda" instead of "lamda" :\
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2015-03-31T01:24:44Z akkad: Lambda comes to greem from Lamed in Phonecian. Meaning "Cattle Prod"
2015-03-31T01:24:49Z akkad: greek
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2015-03-31T01:30:00Z jasom: electrojustin: you can do that, but you won't be able to call it by name, nor recurse.
2015-03-31T01:30:32Z jasom: electrojustin: and one wonders why you would do that rather than flet or labels
2015-03-31T01:31:59Z electrojustin: honestly there wasn't a terribly good reason to do that in the first place
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2015-03-31T03:46:59Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-03-31T04:04:29Z jasom: good morning beach!
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2015-03-31T05:04:04Z beach: The issue by hijarian on this repository: https://github.com/robert-strandh/CL-reference/issues/2 is another piece of evidence that we must start thinking in terms of protocols for manipulating documents, rather than in terms of markup.  As I have noticed, the markup is what people seem to have strong opinions about.
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2015-03-31T05:05:44Z jasom: yes and no
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2015-03-31T05:06:40Z jasom: markup is what people have strong opinions about, because that's the primary interface with non-wysiwyg documentation tools
2015-03-31T05:08:02Z beach: And by defining a protocol instead, we could allow for each person to have his or her markup or interactive program to manipulate the document.
2015-03-31T05:08:50Z jasom: beach: if you still use LaTeX as an intermediate format in the rendering process, then other forms of markup may still be perceived as second-class citizens
2015-03-31T05:09:14Z beach: Who said something about LaTeX?
2015-03-31T05:09:28Z jasom: beach: the readme to CL-reference
2015-03-31T05:09:47Z beach: Forget about that repository.
2015-03-31T05:09:52Z jasom: a practical concern is that nearly no markup renders to an object model
2015-03-31T05:10:18Z beach: I am saying, we need to have a protocol for manipulating documents.
2015-03-31T05:10:20Z jasom: and the ones that do, it's basically a AST for the markup
2015-03-31T05:10:27Z {[]}grant has been thinking of working on a skribe/skribilio-like system as of recent. :^P
2015-03-31T05:10:29Z beach: That way, I can use that protocol for that repository and for others.
2015-03-31T05:11:01Z beach: I am not saying we should adopt an existing markup nor its corresponding AST
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2015-03-31T05:11:34Z beach: I am saying, we need to encourage Shinmera to finish the document protocol he has been working on.
2015-03-31T05:12:17Z {[]}grant: beach: Link?
2015-03-31T05:12:30Z jasom: My prediction is that you'll go from one markup language that some people like and everybody else hates to zero markup languages, unless you already have a plan for who will do the work to bootstrap the platform
2015-03-31T05:12:50Z beach: {[]}grant: For Shinmera's stuff?  I don't know.  Hold on...
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2015-03-31T05:13:20Z beach: jasom: I'll keep that in mind.
2015-03-31T05:14:32Z {[]}grant has been using a markup for his soon-to-be-published (finally) blog, and for personal but no prior use -- it is amazing how simple such a thing is, from a user-level.
2015-03-31T05:14:40Z beach: {[]}grant: I am not sure.  I need to ask Shinmera when he wakes up.
2015-03-31T05:15:00Z {[]}grant: beach: Np.
2015-03-31T05:15:38Z jasom: beach: is it related to plump?
2015-03-31T05:15:59Z beach: I honestly don't know.  Let me look.
2015-03-31T05:16:16Z jasom: ah, looks like not; plump is just an html-ish parser
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2015-03-31T05:16:37Z beach: Yeah, I don't think that's it.
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2015-03-31T05:22:33Z beach: I just find it "interesting" that every documentation project basically fails to become widely adopted just because people can't agree on the markup.  Instead of just accepting that fact, I am trying to find out what to do about it.
2015-03-31T05:23:27Z beach: I know that attempting to fix things should be punishable by law, but hey, I can't help it.
2015-03-31T05:23:29Z jasom: I wonder how much of that is really the problem, and how much is bikeshedding.  It's hard to know
2015-03-31T05:24:08Z jasom: no, I love it when people attempt to fix things; the world is rarely worse-off from it, and sometimes better
2015-03-31T05:25:01Z jasom: The statement "engineers would rather argue about markup formats than write documentation" seems obvious in retrospect.
2015-03-31T05:25:03Z beach: There is probably a lot of bikeshedding, but the fact is that many people are put off immediately by a project just because of the markup it uses.
2015-03-31T05:25:40Z beach: Is that a real quotation?
2015-03-31T05:26:02Z jasom: no, I was quoting it to offset the statement itself from my commentary on it
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2015-03-31T05:29:58Z jasom: anyway, I didn't mean to rain on your parade.  Best of luck!
2015-03-31T05:31:17Z beach: jasom: Don't worry about it.  I have been pretty immune to that for the past 5 decades or so.  I am used to it.
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2015-03-31T05:36:10Z beach: In order to start a project like SICL, one has to be pretty immune anyway.  I mean, after all it is pointless, it can't be done, too much work, lots of smarter people have tried and failed, why not just work on SBCL instead, etc. etc.
2015-03-31T05:36:44Z jasom: yeah
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2015-03-31T05:39:46Z jasom: what fraction of the language is covered by SICL now?
2015-03-31T05:40:09Z beach: A very large part.
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2015-03-31T05:40:49Z beach: I am not necessarily working like that.
2015-03-31T05:41:09Z jasom: ah
2015-03-31T05:41:21Z beach: There is some fairly small stuff that takes up a lot of room in the Common Lisp HyperSpec like streams.
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2015-03-31T05:41:32Z beach: I only started working on streams yesterday.
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2015-03-31T05:41:45Z beach: But I have done much bigger stuff like CLOS.
2015-03-31T05:41:46Z jasom: If I were to write an HIR interpreter, could I bootstrap SICL?
2015-03-31T05:42:06Z beach: Sure.  I am doing that already.
2015-03-31T05:42:16Z beach: In fact, I compile HIR to Common Lisp.
2015-03-31T05:42:30Z beach: Then I use the host compiler to compile that to native code.
2015-03-31T05:42:33Z jasom: well I'm more interested in platforms without common lisp at the moment
2015-03-31T05:42:52Z beach: Anything that interprets HIR would do I think.
2015-03-31T05:43:31Z beach: An easy thing would be a byte-code interpreter in C with the Boehm GC.  I think that would be a smallish project.
2015-03-31T05:44:08Z beach: The reason I am not doing it, is that I would then lose my development environment.
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2015-03-31T05:44:44Z beach: I prefer to work in Common Lisp as much as possible.
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2015-03-31T05:46:18Z brucem: beach: docs are a terrible thing. for so many people these days, it is Markdown or get lost ... and then they use other tools to work around the lack of proper stuff because they can't express everything they need in Markdown ... the ReStructuredText model is a *lot* better and what I use for thousands of pages of docs ... but people hate anything other than Markdown.
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2015-03-31T05:46:43Z brucem: beach: the good news is that it isn't that hard to build a "document AST" that is similar to what ReStructuredText uses ... and support some Markdown that way.
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2015-03-31T05:48:54Z beach: brucem: I see.  I think Shinmera's plan was a little bit more ambitious.  But yeah, designing a very simple protocol would not be too hard.  I should look into ReStructuredText.
2015-03-31T05:49:56Z brucem: beach: the Python docutils project publishes info about the AST ... including a (perhaps working?) XML DTD that describes the structure (even though it is never in XML form).
2015-03-31T05:51:27Z beach: It describes the structure of ReStructuredText?
2015-03-31T05:52:53Z brucem: yes
2015-03-31T05:52:58Z brucem: err, no, the AST
2015-03-31T05:53:04Z brucem: not the surface syntax.
2015-03-31T05:53:21Z beach: Got it.
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2015-03-31T05:54:29Z brucem: beach: I think somewhere I started converting it by hand to a Dylan (CLOS-like) class / method structure ... then decided I should just use a DTD parser and go that route and then got distracted.
2015-03-31T05:55:40Z beach: That's unfortunate.
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2015-03-31T05:57:03Z beach: The entire phenomenon is very interesting to me.  1. Look at existing markups with no associated protocol and that translates to PDF, HTML etc., 2. Decide you don't like it.  3. Design a different one with the same problems.
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2015-03-31T05:59:15Z beach: But I believe that is a reasonable solution.  I should encourage Shinmera to publish a preliminary version of what he did.  Then I should make sure there are some (at least partial) parsers for (say) Markdown and XML so that people can get started.
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2015-03-31T06:00:58Z beach: Then, a person with the reaction that I noticed would just write a new parser for the same internal protocol, and everyone could benefit from the parsed version of new documents.
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2015-03-31T06:03:55Z beach: Time to get to work!
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2015-03-31T06:22:15Z jasom: brucem: you reminded me of my rst parser I hacked up a long time ago; surprisingly enough it hasn't bitrotted, as I got somewhat reasonable results from the demo.txt
2015-03-31T06:22:53Z brucem: jasom: RST is (overall) pretty nice. And it works well with http://sphinx-doc.org/ and so on.
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2015-03-31T06:23:31Z brucem: jasom: We wrote our own extensions that get loaded to extend things a bit for our usages.
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2015-03-31T06:23:47Z jasom: the extensions are both a strength and a weakness of rst
2015-03-31T06:24:30Z brucem: yes.
2015-03-31T06:24:49Z brucem: but they're the reason that we're able to use it.
2015-03-31T06:26:53Z brucem: jasom: like the bottom 75% of this file: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/dylan-lang/opendylan/master/documentation/hacker-guide/source/compiler/notes-warnings-errors.rst
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2015-03-31T06:47:40Z jasom: yeah
2015-03-31T06:47:49Z jasom: my parser hadn't implemented any directives yet, it turns out.
2015-03-31T06:48:11Z jasom: I got grid-tables working though, despite using a parsing library not at all suited for parsing it
2015-03-31T06:49:19Z jasom: It's O(some-ugly-function(n)) for large tables, as it backtracks on every column separator to check for spans
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2015-03-31T11:25:12Z Cymew: I usually live in DO land, and have tried to force myself to learn LOOP. But, I have stumbled upon a few issues. Someone care to tell me why 'b' is not incrementing in this loop? http://paste.lisp.org/display/146677
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2015-03-31T11:38:07Z jackdaniel: Cymew: stay with do :)
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2015-03-31T11:41:48Z Shinmera: Cymew: Your inner loop never has its sum exactly equal to 100, so it never exits, so n is never anything above 0, so b is (* 2 m 0) so 0.
2015-03-31T11:41:55Z Shinmera: *1000
2015-03-31T11:42:51Z Shinmera: So you problem is that you inner loop never terminates for obvious reasons.
2015-03-31T11:43:08Z Shinmera: *your
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2015-03-31T11:51:59Z Cymew: Shinmera: that part I can see, and understand. But, why does not 'b' change? I know the function wont terminate...
2015-03-31T11:52:48Z Cymew: Sorry, now I saw your first line. 0 times anything
2015-03-31T11:53:16Z Cymew: That makes sense
2015-03-31T11:53:36Z Cymew: I thought that was a secondary issue, but it actually messes up b. Thanks.
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2015-03-31T12:27:39Z flip214: has anyone thought about integrating HTTP/2 in Hunchentoot?
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2015-03-31T12:28:18Z Shinmera: People have thought about it, but if I recall discussions about it it's not worth the hassle.
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2015-03-31T13:01:03Z stagiaire: any decent online lisp interpreter ?
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2015-03-31T13:11:23Z antoszka: stagiaire: Why not run an implementation on your machine?
2015-03-31T13:11:54Z antoszka: stagiaire: http://learnlispthehardway.org/try-lisp/ ← there's this, but has limitations
2015-03-31T13:11:54Z stagiaire: if theres a windows exe that doesnt require admin rights, I can take it
2015-03-31T13:12:38Z antoszka: I'm sure both CCL and SBCL can be downloaded, unpacked and run as whatever user.
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2015-03-31T13:14:00Z antoszka: stagiaire: http://www.iqool.de/lispstick.html ← there's a portable enviromnent with a Lisp, Emacs and some nice preconfiguration to get running out of the box
2015-03-31T13:15:19Z stagiaire: thanks
2015-03-31T13:15:24Z antoszka: np
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2015-03-31T14:25:08Z nyef: G'morning all.
2015-03-31T14:25:36Z fe[nl]ix_: hi nyef
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2015-03-31T14:29:05Z Cymew: Anyone have a Best Practice for CL-PPCRE:SCAN-TO-STRINGS when you only care about the second value? When I use MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND and just ignore the first variable I always get a warning. Is there a better way?
2015-03-31T14:29:28Z nyef: clhs nth-value
2015-03-31T14:29:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_nth_va.htm
2015-03-31T14:29:55Z nyef: clhs ignore
2015-03-31T14:29:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ignore.htm
2015-03-31T14:30:11Z nyef: Cymew: There you go, two approaches.
2015-03-31T14:30:54Z Cymew: I clearly needs to just browse CLtL2 and the CLHS more often to get ideas. Thanks nyef.
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2015-03-31T14:33:11Z antoszka: another, more verbose could be (SECOND (MULTIPLE-VALUE-LIST …))
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2015-03-31T14:33:30Z antoszka: but that's basically what nth-value does in a cleaner way
2015-03-31T14:33:36Z Xach: I wonder if sbcl transforms that.
2015-03-31T14:33:38Z Cymew: indeed
2015-03-31T14:36:30Z nyef: I believe that it does.
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2015-03-31T14:36:58Z Cymew:  Nice
2015-03-31T14:37:31Z nyef: I've caught a multiple-value-list in a LET* and destructured it "manually", and it treated it effectively like a multiple-value-bind.
2015-03-31T14:38:19Z Xach: doesn't look like it transforms to me, but maybe i'm checking wrong.
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2015-03-31T14:40:52Z ggole: Don't *, **, *** indicate an unused variable, avoiding the warning?
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2015-03-31T14:40:58Z ggole: (Might be a bit SBCL specific there.)
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2015-03-31T14:41:22Z |3b|: *,**,*** are REPL variables
2015-03-31T14:42:01Z ggole: I know that
2015-03-31T14:42:39Z ggole: Oh, are you suggesting that I'm relying on a side effect of those variables being already bound?
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2015-03-31T14:44:56Z |3b| is suggesting you are doing something odd that happens to work
2015-03-31T14:45:36Z ggole: Mmm, seems so - **** chucks *two* warnings.
2015-03-31T14:45:52Z ggole corrects his misconceptions
2015-03-31T14:46:24Z |3b| suspects any special variable would work there (aside from any side effects on things you call within the scope of the binding)
2015-03-31T14:46:58Z ggole: I'm surprised there isn't a lexical convention for "ignore this thing"
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2015-03-31T14:47:16Z |3b|: clhs 11.1.2.1.2.1
2015-03-31T14:47:16Z specbot: Some Exceptions to Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_ababa.htm
2015-03-31T14:47:33Z |3b|: last sentence of 2nd para suggests that use of * etc is non-conformant
2015-03-31T14:48:04Z ggole: Indeed.
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2015-03-31T15:37:30Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2015-03-31T15:41:36Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-03-31T15:42:04Z beach: drmeister: The paper looks much better.  I'll get to it tomorrow UTC+2.
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2015-03-31T15:45:12Z beach: I have a favor to ask of anyone with access to LispWorks.  I need to check whether COUNT with :FROM-END T allocates memory.  For that, please do (defparameter *l* (make-list 10000000 :initial-element 'a)) and then (time (count 'b *l* :from-end t)).
2015-03-31T15:45:37Z beach: I am assuming TIME on LispWorks gives stats about memory allocation.  If not, I don't know what to do.
2015-03-31T15:46:18Z beach: It might be necessary to stick it in a function (defun ff () (time (count ...))) and compile it, but I don't know that for sure.
2015-03-31T15:46:51Z beach: drmeister: Your demo has been programmed.  It looks like 15 minutes to me.
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2015-03-31T15:48:41Z ggole: :from-end t is a strange thing to want from count
2015-03-31T15:50:11Z beach: ggole: COUNT and REDUCE are the only two functions that require processing to be done from the end when :FROM-END is T.  Why do you think my request is strange?
2015-03-31T15:52:27Z ggole: Maybe I'm missing something, but there doesn't seem to be any advantage in counting from the end
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2015-03-31T15:53:51Z beach: So you really mean "Requiring that COUNT processes from the end when :FROM-END is T is a strange thing for the Common Lisp HyperSpec to require"?
2015-03-31T15:54:44Z drmeister: I'm working on installing Cleavir/Clasp to compile all expressions at the Clasp REPL - Clasp environments are finding their way in to Cleavir.
2015-03-31T15:54:47Z ggole: I'm wondering why that keyword exists for count at all, and why somebody would use it
2015-03-31T15:54:51Z |3b|: requiring it to count from the end is reasonable if you have the option, having the option in the first place is less obvious
2015-03-31T15:55:16Z ggole: For a side effecting :test?
2015-03-31T15:56:01Z beach: ggole: Presumably.
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2015-03-31T15:56:55Z ggole: clhs count
2015-03-31T15:56:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_countc.htm
2015-03-31T15:57:19Z ggole: Ah
2015-03-31T15:57:23Z ggole: Side effects it is.
2015-03-31T16:03:49Z beach: drmeister: Do you still have a factor 2 or so performance improvement?
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2015-03-31T16:05:53Z drmeister: beach: I haven't been doing timing since I last reported those factors.  I've been working on integrating Cleavir/Clasp fully into Clasp.
2015-03-31T16:06:15Z beach: I see.  No problem.  Just curious.
2015-03-31T16:08:09Z drmeister: The Clasp start-up time is longer with Cleavir installed - it takes about 12 seconds - I'm trying to figure out why.  Considering that generated code is now 2-3x faster it doesn't make sense that the start-up time should go from 4 seconds to 12 seconds even with the additional Cleavir code at startup.
2015-03-31T16:08:41Z drmeister: I've installed code to time every top-level form evaluated at startup - I'm compiling Cleavir+Clasp now to see what's going on.
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2015-03-31T16:11:02Z beach: drmeister: I just typed (let ((a 10) (b 20)) (shiftf (values a b) (floor 10 3))) to Clasp.
2015-03-31T16:11:15Z beach: ... and I got an error message.
2015-03-31T16:11:39Z beach: A very cryptic one on top of that.
2015-03-31T16:11:40Z pjb: jasom: cl-ppcre is a bad library: it sets its own optimization level, therefore when you commit such a mistake, you don't get any meaningful error from it.
2015-03-31T16:12:12Z pjb: Myself, I spent half a day debugging because of it.  I should invoice 300 euro to Edi…
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2015-03-31T16:14:02Z pjb: jasom: look what I have to do in: https://gitlab.com/nasium-lse/nasium-lse/blob/master/src/loader.lisp#L38
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2015-03-31T16:15:15Z pjb: jasom: lines 38-61 have to be evaluated before compiling and loading cl-ppcre.
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2015-03-31T16:15:41Z pjb: jasom: happily, no known implementation do bad thing when defpackage is evaluated twice.
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2015-03-31T16:16:37Z pjb: jasom: yes, this means that cl-ppcre is also bad for a second reason: it has parameters defined in its own package.
2015-03-31T16:16:46Z pjb: (compile-time and load-time parameters that is).
2015-03-31T16:17:20Z pjb: Library parameters should not be defined in the library package, but in a separate package that is defined before the library is compiled or loaded.  cl-user can be acceptable.
2015-03-31T16:18:14Z dim: what about opening an issue, or a bug report, or something?
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2015-03-31T16:18:30Z dim: attach a Pull Request, or a patch, to it, for better effects
2015-03-31T16:18:38Z dim: surely it would be more productive than complaining here?
2015-03-31T16:18:47Z dim: I perfectly get it that complaining here comes first, tho ;-)
2015-03-31T16:19:10Z pjb: dim: perhaps I did that, I don't remember.
2015-03-31T16:19:36Z jasom: pjb: ah, that explains a lot
2015-03-31T16:20:03Z pjb: dim: Now I see cl-ppcre on github, so I shall do a patch.
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2015-03-31T16:22:35Z jasom: speaking of which, does anyone know if Vladimir Sedach hangs out in here?
2015-03-31T16:22:46Z Xach: no
2015-03-31T16:22:51Z Xach: i know he does not
2015-03-31T16:22:57Z jasom: thanks Xach
2015-03-31T16:23:54Z jasom submitted a patch to parenscript a few weeks ago
2015-03-31T16:26:27Z drmeister: beach: Thanks - I'm investigating
2015-03-31T16:27:19Z beach: I need to go cook dinner.  I guess I'll ask about COUNT again tomorrow morning (UTC+2).
2015-03-31T16:28:17Z beach: drmeister: I think the next thing to do in Clasp in terms of performance improvement is to implement tagged fixnums and CONS pointers.
2015-03-31T16:28:42Z beach: drmeister: That would make CONSP, CAR, and CDR very fast when inlined.
2015-03-31T16:28:52Z drmeister: That's my plan.
2015-03-31T16:28:58Z beach: OK.
2015-03-31T16:29:07Z beach: I'm off.  Talk later.
2015-03-31T16:29:10Z drmeister: Or I should say - that's the plan - based on your recommendation.
2015-03-31T16:29:55Z drmeister: Ok - talk later.  I'll figure out what's going on with SHIFTF - I can see two problems already.
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2015-03-31T16:30:50Z kuanyui: Let list = '((fruit . (apple banana) ) (animal . (cat dog) ) ) , how to push element `citrus` into fruit? Must I replace the whole fruit list?
2015-03-31T16:31:21Z kuanyui: Or maybe I select a wrong data structure?
2015-03-31T16:31:26Z pjb: you would have to, since a quoted list is immutable.
2015-03-31T16:32:10Z kuanyui: pjb: Oops, Sorry, please ignore that quote
2015-03-31T16:32:26Z kuanyui: This's not a quoted list.
2015-03-31T16:32:39Z pjb: It is.
2015-03-31T16:32:45Z pjb: '(…) IS a quoted list.
2015-03-31T16:33:11Z pjb: Instead, try: (let ((alist (acons 'fruit (list 'apple 'banana) (acons 'animal (list 'cat 'dog) '())))) (push 'citrus (cdr (assoc 'fruit alist))) alist) --> ((fruit citrus apple banana) (animal cat dog))
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2015-03-31T16:33:28Z jasom: I think (push 'citrus (cdr (assoc 'fruit list))) will work
2015-03-31T16:33:37Z pjb: more exactly, '(…) is a quote form which returns a quoted list.
2015-03-31T16:33:50Z pjb: jasom: only if list is not a quoted list.
2015-03-31T16:34:03Z hitecnologys: Xach: I've been playing with Quickproject recently but I can't seem to get the hang of the templating mechanism. Are there any examples of its usage?
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2015-03-31T16:34:29Z jasom: pjb: right, or more generally assuming the list is modifiable (I think there are other lists that aren't modifiable)
2015-03-31T16:35:07Z hitecnologys: Xach: is putting a parameter name between #| and |# the right way of doing it?
2015-03-31T16:35:33Z pjb: I would argue that commenting is always a bad way of doing anything.
2015-03-31T16:36:47Z hitecnologys: pjb: I think it searches for such comments are replaces them then but I just want to be sure there's nothing extra behind the stage.
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2015-03-31T16:37:37Z hitecnologys: And I would very much like to take a loot at real-life examples, if possible.
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2015-03-31T16:39:45Z jasom: pjb: help me out; is modifying &rest specifically disallowed, or just a bad idea because you don't know if it is a literal list, or am I just wrong and it's safe?
2015-03-31T16:40:04Z jasom: my hyperspec-fu is weak today
2015-03-31T16:40:16Z pjb: Yes, &rest lists can be literals.
2015-03-31T16:40:39Z pjb: or partially literal: (apply 'list 0 1 2 '(3 4 5))
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2015-03-31T16:40:44Z jasom: right
2015-03-31T16:41:04Z pjb: that's why cl:list must make a copy, you cannot implemented it as (defun list (&rest list) list).
2015-03-31T16:41:09Z jasom: but there is nothing specific about &rest lists to make modifying them disallowed
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2015-03-31T16:41:28Z pjb: non-conformance.
2015-03-31T16:41:47Z pjb: ie. nasal dragons.
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2015-03-31T16:42:09Z jasom: pjb: that was my question: if you guarantee that a function would never be called with a literal argument list, would it be conforming to modify the &rest parameter?
2015-03-31T16:42:48Z pjb: if you modify one, you can get a sigill, an error condition signaled, a source-code modified (and therefore surprising side effects), nothing happened (if you're a lucky bastard), or it may do something else.
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2015-03-31T16:43:24Z pjb: conformity is a notion that is independent of the implementation. If you want to take into account the implementation, then anything can happ.e
2015-03-31T16:43:26Z pjb: en
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2015-03-31T16:43:47Z pjb: you may be using an implementation that documents exactly what it does for &rest, and you may therefore have some sound semantics to base your code on.
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2015-03-31T16:43:52Z pjb: But this wouldn't be conforming.
2015-03-31T16:44:00Z pjb: this would be implementation dependant.
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2015-03-31T16:44:35Z pjb: And subsidiarily, since I know no implementation documenting what they do for &rest in all details, you cannot even count on any specific implementation specific behavior.
2015-03-31T16:45:06Z jasom: ah
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2015-03-31T16:45:56Z jasom: I think that if you do e.g. (apply (lambda (&rest r) ...) (list 1 2 3)) then it is permitted to modify the rest parameter, but I'm not sure
2015-03-31T16:46:42Z jasom: I couldn't find anything in the specification that specifically prohibits modifying &rest, just a note that it is permitted, but not required, to share structure with the last argument to apply
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2015-03-31T16:47:03Z pjb: At least, I would expect it to be possible in a sane implementation. with ((lambda (&rest r) ...) (list 1 2 3)) it should even be more probablye.
2015-03-31T16:47:06Z pjb: s/ye/e/
2015-03-31T16:47:07Z jasom: And to be clear, I'm not asking about implementation
2015-03-31T16:47:17Z jasom: I'm asking about whether such code would be conforming
2015-03-31T16:47:41Z jasom: AFAICT the spec is silent on the matter
2015-03-31T16:48:18Z pjb: If you really have to modify the list, nothing prevents to to remove &rest from the lambda list, and be happy.
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2015-03-31T16:48:46Z pjb: ((lambda (r) (push 0 (cdr r)) r) (list 1 2 3)) --> (1 0 2 3)
2015-03-31T16:49:04Z jasom: or you know, copy-list
2015-03-31T16:49:16Z pjb: Previously, I meant: ((lambda (&rest r) ...) 1 2 3)
2015-03-31T16:49:22Z jasom: this was more of a case of "I remember something about not modifying &rest but can't find why in the spec"
2015-03-31T16:49:37Z pjb: Often it's useful to actually not use &rest: ((lambda (r) ...) (list 1 2 3))
2015-03-31T16:50:19Z jasom: since the spec is silent on what happens if &rest doesn't share structure with the last argument to apply, I suppose you technically can't assume anything about it (though anything other than that or a fresh list seems dubious)
2015-03-31T16:50:27Z pjb: &optional, &key and &rest are more a user(programmer) interface question, to make it easy to call commands interactively (ie. at the REPL) than functions (in the code).
2015-03-31T16:51:05Z jasom: pjb: I disagree; &key can make the code more clear to read as well
2015-03-31T16:51:06Z pjb: Yes, it's always a bad idea to add this kind of silent constraints on the arguments of a function.
2015-03-31T16:51:25Z pjb: "code clear" is a user interface question ;-)
2015-03-31T16:51:36Z pjb: with user=programmer.
2015-03-31T16:51:59Z jasom: It's distinct from call commands interactively
2015-03-31T16:52:36Z Bike: "constant, conforming programs must neither rely on the list structure of a rest list to be freshly consed, nor modify that list structure. "
2015-03-31T16:52:49Z pjb: because, when there's a &rest parameter, a list has to be consed anyways.  So there's little to be gained from (f 1 2 3) vs. (f (list 1 2 3)).
2015-03-31T16:52:51Z Bike: er, nevermind "constant"
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2015-03-31T16:55:22Z jasom: Bike: ah, thanks; of course I wanted what I can do with &rest parameters to be under the documentation for apply...
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2015-03-31T16:55:41Z jasom: Bike: of course, the reason given is dubious, I think the statement is still normative
2015-03-31T16:56:41Z jasom: because looking at the reason, it implies that it is conforming, so long as the function is only called via apply with a non-constant value, however that caveat is not given in the statment
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2015-03-31T16:57:14Z jasom: It's a sentence that contradicts itself
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2015-03-31T16:57:56Z Bike: well i think in practice it amounts to "implementations are allowed to reuse the last argument of apply as a &rest parameter", or something.
2015-03-31T16:58:03Z pjb: minion: memo for stagiaire: you may try: http://hubble.informatimago.com:8116/
2015-03-31T16:58:04Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell stagiaire when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-03-31T16:58:18Z PuercoPop: hitecnologys: have you checked https://github.com/guicho271828/eazy-project/? It seems easy to extend
2015-03-31T16:58:42Z hitecnologys: PuercoPop: no, haven't heard of that. Thanks for information.
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2015-03-31T17:20:43Z schoppenhauer: is it possible, with salza2, to create a stream that is then compressed into another stream? I found salza2:gzip-stream, but it appears to read from a given stream and write to another one.
2015-03-31T17:20:48Z schoppenhauer: and this is not what I want
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2015-03-31T17:23:51Z jasom: schoppenhauer: what do you want?
2015-03-31T17:24:07Z schoppenhauer: jasom: to create a stream that is then compressed into another stream?
2015-03-31T17:24:35Z jasom: schoppenhauer: how is that different from what gzip-stream does?
2015-03-31T17:25:00Z schoppenhauer: jasom: gzip-stream takes a stream, reads it, and writes the output to another stream, as far as i understand.
2015-03-31T17:25:14Z schoppenhauer: jasom: I wand a stream in which I can write.
2015-03-31T17:25:50Z schoppenhauer: which i can pass to flexi-streams, etc.
2015-03-31T17:26:14Z jasom: ah
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2015-03-31T17:28:34Z schoppenhauer: so ... how is  this done?
2015-03-31T17:29:13Z jasom: schoppenhauer: looks like you'd have to implement it yourself, via gray-streams
2015-03-31T17:29:46Z schoppenhauer: ok
2015-03-31T17:30:33Z jasom: schoppenhauer: or use gzip-stream
2015-03-31T17:30:55Z schoppenhauer: jasom: but gzip-stream does not do what I want, as I said ...
2015-03-31T17:31:04Z jasom: http://cliki.net/gzip-stream
2015-03-31T17:31:21Z schoppenhauer: ah
2015-03-31T17:31:23Z schoppenhauer: thx
2015-03-31T17:31:31Z jasom: looks like it's in quicklisp
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2015-03-31T17:31:42Z schoppenhauer: yep
2015-03-31T17:32:04Z jasom: there's another deflate library I've used if you don't want gzip streams
2015-03-31T17:32:34Z jasom: ah, only decompression though
2015-03-31T17:32:40Z jasom used it for reading PDF files
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2015-03-31T18:21:44Z mood: Does anyone here have experience with Squirl? I'm trying to find out if one body is touching another, but I can't seem to find a way to do that
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2015-03-31T18:33:30Z pjb: No idea what squirl is.
2015-03-31T18:34:24Z nyef: ... A physics library of some sort, IIRC.
2015-03-31T18:34:27Z mood: "Native Lisp port of the Chipmunk physics library." https://github.com/zkat/squirl
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2015-03-31T18:34:49Z nyef: Turned up a bug in SBCL once, too.
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2015-03-31T18:35:41Z mood: It seems to work quite well, but lacks documentation and seems a bit rough around the edges
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2015-03-31T18:55:01Z dim: just read XP A Common Lisp Pretty Printing System and once again I'm quite impressed by what's to be found in CL
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2015-03-31T19:36:31Z reb`: dim: Did you just read the document that shows how to print s-expressions as Pascal code?
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2015-03-31T20:05:18Z drmeister: beach posted a bug that he found in Clasp:      (let ((a 10) (b 20)) (shiftf (values a b) (floor 10 3)))  -->  generates an error
2015-03-31T20:05:35Z drmeister: It turns out the bug is in the ECL Common Lisp source for the SHIFTF macro.
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2015-03-31T20:08:30Z jasom: did that bug still present itself in ECL, or did it get masked by something else?
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2015-03-31T20:09:42Z jasom: whoa, it does reproduce on ECL too
2015-03-31T20:09:58Z sebboh: Hello.  I'm running stumpwm and got emacs connected to its repl via slime, so I did (in-package #:stumpwm) (lastmsg) and lo and behold, stumpwm dutifully popped up the little message box, just as if I'd hit C-t m. :D
2015-03-31T20:10:01Z jackdaniel: what bug?
2015-03-31T20:10:14Z jasom: jackdaniel: (let ((a 10) (b 20)) (shiftf (values a b) (floor 10 3)))
2015-03-31T20:10:26Z jasom: jackdaniel: signals an unbound-variable condition
2015-03-31T20:10:50Z sebboh: Now, can I ask slime (or sbcl?) for a list of symbols that are defined in this stumpwm package?  I'd love to see an s-expression that defines my current window layout.
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2015-03-31T20:11:08Z jasom: jackdaniel: beach found it on Clasp, and it is present in stock ECL as well
2015-03-31T20:11:10Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/zHY9m7Uc
2015-03-31T20:11:28Z drmeister: Oh jackdaniel - you are here.
2015-03-31T20:11:50Z drmeister: I was just downloading the latest ECL and going to give it a try and then see if I could fix the macro and send it to you.
2015-03-31T20:12:28Z jackdaniel: sounds great :-)
2015-03-31T20:12:35Z jasom: seboh: do-symbols/do-external-symbols depending on what you want
2015-03-31T20:12:38Z jasom: clhs do-symbols
2015-03-31T20:12:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_sym.htm
2015-03-31T20:12:40Z jackdaniel: macro mentioned by jasom ?
2015-03-31T20:13:08Z drmeister: Yes, the SHIFTF macro
2015-03-31T20:13:19Z sebboh: jasom: thanks!
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2015-03-31T20:14:23Z jackdaniel: it's still present on develop branch (no wonder, didn't try to fix anything what even looks like this)
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2015-03-31T20:16:56Z drmeister: clhs shiftf
2015-03-31T20:16:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_shiftf.htm
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2015-03-31T20:18:41Z sebboh: jasom, I did this: (do-symbols (s (find-package 'stumpwm)) (print s))
2015-03-31T20:18:54Z sebboh: oh, I meant, the external version.
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2015-03-31T20:19:43Z jackdaniel: drmeister: please leave me a memo if you succeed, other way I'll take a look tomorrow on this - I'm sleepy and bit drunk, not in good shape to grock a code
2015-03-31T20:20:16Z drmeister: I am having trouble following the macro as well (sigh)
2015-03-31T20:20:22Z jasom: sebboh: you can filter based upon symbol-package if you want to exclude imported symbols
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2015-03-31T20:20:26Z drmeister: Can we just steal it from SBCL?
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2015-03-31T20:22:03Z drmeister: I'm kidding.
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2015-03-31T20:22:11Z jackdaniel: well, license is compatible :P
2015-03-31T20:22:29Z jackdaniel: at least this way ^_^
2015-03-31T20:23:02Z sebboh: jasom, it didn't occur to me that this list might include "imported symbols".  Thanks for the heads up.  Meanwhile I'm just looking around inside here informally.  :)
2015-03-31T20:23:06Z jackdaniel: anyway, good night
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2015-03-31T20:23:39Z jasom: sebboh: something like: (do-symbols (s 'stumpwm) (when (eql (symbol-package s) (find-package 'stumpwm)) (print s))
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2015-03-31T20:30:48Z sebboh: (sort ...) takes a predicate.  What's a good predicate for strings?  The desired result is alphabetical order.
2015-03-31T20:31:01Z Xach: #'string<
2015-03-31T20:31:05Z PuercoPop: sebboh: if you want to search for a particular symbol you can also use (apropos <string> :stumpwm)
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2015-03-31T20:37:54Z sebboh: Xach and PuercoPop thanks!
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2015-03-31T20:43:17Z drmeister: ROTATEF will have the same problem in ECL
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2015-03-31T20:45:45Z jasom: sebboh: #'string< for basic stuff; to really do it right, you need to know the languate you are using
2015-03-31T20:45:51Z jasom: s/languate/language
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2015-03-31T20:46:43Z jasom: Different languages will sort identical code-points in different orders
2015-03-31T20:47:19Z pjb: And then, how do you sort words from different languages? :-)
2015-03-31T20:47:41Z sebboh: jasom: by 'language I am using', do you mean the human language of the contents of the strings?  The "default C collate" will do for my purposes. (Or whatever it might be called in CL.)
2015-03-31T20:47:49Z jasom: sebboh: yeah
2015-03-31T20:47:58Z pjb: string< probably will match the default C collate.
2015-03-31T20:48:26Z sebboh: They'll have to pry ASCII from my cold, dead fingers.
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2015-03-31T20:48:53Z pjb: Actually, think of it, IIRC there are some strange things happening when using char< and therefore string<.
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2015-03-31T20:49:31Z jasom: sebboh: even ascii isn't doable; consider the spanish ch and ll
2015-03-31T20:49:43Z sebboh: (Joking. All my source files are UTF-8, but don't contain any codepoints not present in ascii.)
2015-03-31T20:50:01Z sebboh: (As of yet.)
2015-03-31T20:50:07Z jasom: or the kiowa language
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2015-03-31T21:48:20Z drmeister: minion: help
2015-03-31T21:48:20Z minion: There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
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2015-03-31T21:52:41Z drmeister: minion: memo for jackdaniel  - here is a fixed up SHIFTF macro  - I recommend testing it thoroughly:   http://paste.lisp.org/display/146684
2015-03-31T21:52:42Z minion: lisp is the glue that binds the variables together
2015-03-31T21:53:13Z drmeister: Grrr
2015-03-31T21:53:27Z drmeister: minion: memo for jackdaniel: here is a fixed up SHIFTF macro  - I recommend testing it thoroughly:   http://paste.lisp.org/display/146684
2015-03-31T21:53:27Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jackdaniel when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-03-31T21:54:04Z drmeister: minion: memo for jackdaniel: ROTATEF will suffer the same problem - I don't have time to fix that as well.
2015-03-31T21:54:05Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jackdaniel when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-03-31T21:55:15Z drmeister: Will minion remember multiple memos?
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2015-03-31T22:18:35Z drmeister: Clasp+Cleavir now takes 13 seconds to startup - there are about 4600 top-level forms that are evaluated during startup.
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2015-03-31T22:19:15Z drmeister: The most expensive top-level form is when I install beach's "stealth-mixins"  - that takes 1.66 seconds.
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2015-03-31T23:36:08Z pillton: drmeister: Congratulations.
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2015-03-31T23:41:15Z drmeister: piltton: Thanks.
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2015-03-31T23:42:39Z drmeister: I'm not quite done yet - I have to integrate the Cleavir compiler so that expressions are automatically compiled by it.
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