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2014-12-05T11:57:55Z dlowe: nydel: you making a MUD?  You might want to check out https://github.com/TempusMUD/cl-tempus
2014-12-05T11:58:19Z dlowe: nydel: it will at least have code for managing the telnet echo sequence :)
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2014-12-05T12:12:41Z axion: how do i avoid FLOATING-POINT-OVERFLOW?
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2014-12-05T12:21:34Z dlowe: don't make huge floating point numbers?
2014-12-05T12:21:48Z dlowe: If you're using floats, try using doubles
2014-12-05T12:22:09Z dlowe: if you're using doubles, try using ratios
2014-12-05T12:22:38Z dlowe: ratios will be slower, but they're essentially two integers
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2014-12-05T12:24:25Z axion: ok, i'm parsing a file of huge fp's and then i have to multiply them
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2014-12-05T12:27:24Z alpha-: axion use https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/tree/master/contrib/sb-mpfr
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2014-12-05T12:43:04Z Xach: dlowe: I'm going to use the release file instead of git for local-time
2014-12-05T12:43:44Z axion: alpha-: thanks, although with-precision crashes my image, and i'd like a portable solution
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2014-12-05T12:47:49Z splittist: axion: what sort of numbers are they? Big, small, positive, negative, a big messy mixture? Can you just return positive-infinity or zero as a close-enough approximation? (:
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2014-12-05T12:50:58Z axion: 3.5119768202438406d305 5.619162912390145d306 -8.990660659824232d307
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2014-12-05T12:52:13Z Xach: Hmm, does any of the CL json libraries pretty-print?
2014-12-05T12:52:20Z Xach: err, "do"
2014-12-05T12:53:50Z schjetne: Xach: YASON does
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2014-12-05T12:54:17Z schjetne: IIRC
2014-12-05T12:54:21Z splittist: axion: wow. What gets measured to 17 sig figs at 10^305?
2014-12-05T12:54:28Z schjetne: yes, it does
2014-12-05T12:55:18Z schjetne: Speaking of which, I just sent in a pull request to it and JSOWN to turn off e notation. For some strange reason Crockford decided not to allow JSON numerals to have decimal points without decimal digits
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2014-12-05T12:55:33Z axion: splittist: wavefront object file vertex geometries
2014-12-05T12:55:45Z schjetne: I assume ST-JSON and CL-JSON are affected as well, for those who use them
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2014-12-05T12:57:15Z schjetne: I guess people rarely need to represent numbers greater than or equal to 1e7 in JSON
2014-12-05T13:00:32Z Xach: schjetne: Do you know offhand how I invoke it? The docs don't mention "pretty" anywhere and I'm not sure what other terminology to check.
2014-12-05T13:01:49Z schjetne: Xach: make-json-output-stream with :indent t
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2014-12-05T13:02:54Z Xach: schjetne: thanks!
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2014-12-05T13:03:46Z splittist: axion: so those are vertices of galaxies measured in angstroms?
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2014-12-05T13:05:54Z schjetne: Xach: I noticed you had contributed to VivaceGraph
2014-12-05T13:06:02Z schjetne: I've been meaning to give that a try some time
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2014-12-05T13:08:26Z pjb: splittist: you're dreaming.
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2014-12-05T13:08:36Z Xach: It's a neat project. It could stand to be made more user-friendly.
2014-12-05T13:08:39Z pjb: splittist: there's no physical grandeur that goes in the 10^300.
2014-12-05T13:09:12Z pjb: splittist: humans are in the middle of the universe.  10^-40 is the smallest things, 10^40 the biggest.  10^80 is the range used by this universe.
2014-12-05T13:10:21Z pjb: splittist:  the useful time range is in the 10^10 years, 10^12 years if you count the cold death.
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2014-12-05T13:11:19Z pjb: splittist: that's 10^19 seconds, 10^69 plank time steps.
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2014-12-05T13:11:21Z splittist: pjb: I don't disagree.
2014-12-05T13:11:35Z schjetne: Xach: yeah, I made an issue nagging for docs. I'm currently using ArangoDB (and have a really messy, incomplete, undocumented client, beam in eye and all that, for it). It would be neat to get a more integrated stack within Lisp
2014-12-05T13:12:37Z schjetne: Also to get some cool features from proprietary databases like AllegroGraph and Datomic
2014-12-05T13:13:07Z Xach: schjetne: it's a situation where the db has been updated for the needs of a specific app without those features being especially well-documented or tested in a different context
2014-12-05T13:13:49Z schjetne: Xach: I fully understand, being in pretty much the same position
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2014-12-05T13:29:19Z Xach: dlowe: did you sign the local-time release?
2014-12-05T13:29:29Z Xach: There is a detached signature but I can't look up the key id anywhere.
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2014-12-05T13:34:36Z Hydan`: Is there, or has there been an attempt to write DTrace language provider for Lisp?
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2014-12-05T13:36:04Z Xach: Hydan: I haven't heard about that. Sounds interesting. If there was a thing like that, what would it mean?
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2014-12-05T13:45:58Z Hydan: Xach: It would mean being able to trace the whole runtime easily without application interruption with DTrace tools. application provider would be enough to trace the application itself. DTrace is also the only choice on FreeBSD/Solaris/illumos, for example if you want to do something like this http://www.brendangregg.com/flamegraphs.html (but for this I think even an application provider is enough).
2014-12-05T13:46:40Z Xach: ah, so it's not like using lisp to write dtrace things, but using dtrace to get info about the lisp process?
2014-12-05T13:46:50Z Hydan: Xach: I am not sure trace is the right word here, instrument? monitor? profile?
2014-12-05T13:47:08Z Hydan: Xach: correct
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2014-12-05T13:49:36Z schjetne: It seems like a lot of DTrace features are already present in Lisp implementations
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2014-12-05T13:52:04Z Xach: The advantage, I think, of supporting something like DTrace is reusing the work put into DTrace tooling.
2014-12-05T13:52:13Z Xach has never used DTrace and doesn't know, though
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2014-12-05T13:54:55Z fe[nl]ix: Hydan: dtrace is a pretty obscure thing
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2014-12-05T14:18:57Z dlowe: Xach: I forgot to publish it to a keyserver. Did that.
2014-12-05T14:19:13Z Xach: dlowe: which?
2014-12-05T14:19:16Z dlowe: Xach: it's also on https://keybase.io/dlowe
2014-12-05T14:19:18Z Xach: dlowe: so you signed it?
2014-12-05T14:19:39Z dlowe: Xach: it was already signed. Just hadn't published the key
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2014-12-05T14:20:02Z Xach: dlowe: My question is not, "is it signed?" but "did you sign it? or did some automatic thing at github do it?"
2014-12-05T14:20:07Z Xach: I see that it is signed.
2014-12-05T14:20:15Z dlowe: Xach: ah, I signed it myself
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2014-12-05T14:20:42Z Xach: ok. I'm looking at stuff with which I'm unfamiliar, so I'm not sure what's normal and what's extra.
2014-12-05T14:21:41Z dlowe: ah, looking at the "release" section of github?
2014-12-05T14:21:47Z Xach: yeah.
2014-12-05T14:22:00Z dlowe: It's the first time I'd messed with it, too. It seems to just be something overlayed on top of git tags.
2014-12-05T14:22:00Z Xach: dlowe: https://keybase.io/dlowe/key.asc -- is this the key with which you signed?
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2014-12-05T14:22:17Z dlowe: Xach: yes
2014-12-05T14:22:17Z Xach: It doesn't seem to be, but maybe I'm checking wrong.
2014-12-05T14:22:22Z dlowe: huh.
2014-12-05T14:22:41Z Xach: github .asc file says key id ABA5FAF0. keybase says key 8A57CD50.
2014-12-05T14:22:42Z dlowe: well, let me check, then. :p
2014-12-05T14:22:54Z Xach: (but maybe i'm checking wrong)
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2014-12-05T14:23:30Z dlowe: yes, I signed it with the wrong key.
2014-12-05T14:23:56Z Xach: thanks for looking at it
2014-12-05T14:28:10Z dlowe: Xach: ok, try the new sig
2014-12-05T14:28:29Z dlowe: (I have invites for keybase.io if anyone wants to try it)
2014-12-05T14:29:20Z Xach: dlowe: good signature
2014-12-05T14:29:23Z Xach: tusen tack
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2014-12-05T14:31:24Z Posterdati: hi
2014-12-05T14:32:20Z dlowe: Xach: thanks for doing your cryptographic due diligence :)
2014-12-05T14:32:24Z Posterdati: how can I handle file not found condition in with-open-file?
2014-12-05T14:33:12Z Xach: Posterdati: so many ways. what do you want to do if it is not found?
2014-12-05T14:34:58Z Posterdati: Xach: I created a file-not found condition and placed an handler in the reading-file routine
2014-12-05T14:35:39Z Posterdati: I'd like to print a message for the user like "file ~a not found."
2014-12-05T14:35:50Z Posterdati: and exit
2014-12-05T14:36:23Z Xach: Posterdati: You could use :if-does-not-exist nil, and then check if the stream variable is nil, and signal your own error if so.
2014-12-05T14:36:32Z Xach: You could handle FILE-ERROR and do something similar.
2014-12-05T14:37:16Z Posterdati: in that case I have to handle sb-int:simple-file-error
2014-12-05T14:37:19Z Posterdati: ?
2014-12-05T14:38:25Z Xach: No.
2014-12-05T14:38:35Z Xach: You could handle CL:FILE-ERROR.
2014-12-05T14:38:58Z Posterdati: ok and how can I check for a file not found error?
2014-12-05T14:39:31Z Xach: CL:FILE-ERROR is signaled if the file is not found.
2014-12-05T14:39:32Z dlowe: I usually just use :if-does-not-exist nil
2014-12-05T14:39:46Z Xach: That is what I would use first, too.
2014-12-05T14:39:53Z Posterdati: ok
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2014-12-05T14:42:35Z Posterdati: thanks for the help, I will use the :if-does-not-exists way
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2014-12-05T14:44:06Z fe[nl]ix: dlowe: can I have an invite, please ?
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2014-12-05T14:55:46Z Bayushi: Trying to learn SLIME - if I accidentally invoke "restart: reset this thread", how can I restart the repl without restarting all of slime/emacs?
2014-12-05T14:56:17Z Shinmera: You can start a new repl with M-x slime-repl
2014-12-05T14:56:49Z Shinmera: Restarting your inferior-lisp would be by typing at the repl: ,restart
2014-12-05T14:57:02Z Shinmera: Or by M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp
2014-12-05T14:57:38Z Bayushi: Thank you, second worked.
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2014-12-05T14:59:45Z ahungry: Hm for an opengl game font rendering should I use vecto or lispbuilder-sdl-ttf
2014-12-05T15:01:20Z Posterdati: is it possible to extract the pathname from a file stream?
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2014-12-05T15:04:17Z splittist: Posterdati: pathname ?
2014-12-05T15:05:14Z splittist: Posterdati: that is, a stream is a pathspec, so PATHNAME will return something.
2014-12-05T15:06:10Z Posterdati: ok
2014-12-05T15:06:49Z Posterdati: (pathname *file-stream*), where *file-stream* is a biding to an opened file?
2014-12-05T15:07:14Z splittist: Posterdati: if only there were some interactive way of trying these things out...
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2014-12-05T15:09:42Z ahungry: lol
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2014-12-05T15:25:59Z schjetne: dlowe: keybase looks cool, I wouldn't mind trying that
2014-12-05T15:26:27Z dlowe: private message me, folks.  no need to clutter #lisp more
2014-12-05T15:26:59Z Bayushi: I'm sure I'm missing something obvious, but... my file starts (unless (boundp '*auditdb*) (defvar *auditdb* nil)) in global scope and I'm getting a compiler warning for "undeclared free variable *auditdb*" in a later function.  What am I doing wrong/how do I fix this?
2014-12-05T15:27:49Z H4ns: Bayushi: you should put the defvar onto the top level
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2014-12-05T15:28:19Z Xach: Bayushi: DEFVAR already does a boundp test for you.
2014-12-05T15:28:23Z Bayushi: Ah, thanks.
2014-12-05T15:28:30Z Xach: Bayushi: it's DEFPARAMETER that unconditionally sets the value
2014-12-05T15:28:42Z ggole_ is now known as ggole
2014-12-05T15:28:53Z Bayushi: And Lisp has outsmarted me once again, heh
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2014-12-05T15:49:05Z pjb: splittist: or some f* manual where it was specified.
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2014-12-05T16:04:26Z chitofan: xach, if you used l1sp to look up "defgeneric " instead of "defgeneric" and it turned up no result, is that undesirable?
2014-12-05T16:11:04Z pjb: Yes, it's undesirable.
2014-12-05T16:15:50Z Grue`: could be desirable if there were libraries that were using symbols with spaces in them
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2014-12-05T16:29:57Z White_Flame: Grue`: sounds like those libraries would be transitively undesirable
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2014-12-05T16:45:20Z theseb: today my mind is getting blown by "equality'...how come even the seemingly simplest concepts in programming have pitfalls if you think of them too deeply?
2014-12-05T16:47:04Z Zhivago: That's just because you're using sloppy language.
2014-12-05T16:48:00Z Zhivago: Once you make 'equality' precise -- like interchangeable at this point in time, the issues go away.
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2014-12-05T16:50:46Z theseb: Zhivago: there is "equality" and "identity" and "equality != identity" .....i'm sure you knew that already
2014-12-05T16:50:48Z isoraqathedh: One of the things that brains do is that they deal with a world where various types of equality just so happen to become the same result.
2014-12-05T16:50:57Z White_Flame: equality isn't just weird around programming.  Monetary values, especially over time & international boundaries, are notoriously difficult to equate
2014-12-05T16:51:18Z isoraqathedh: Not to mention people. What equality predicate do you use for people?
2014-12-05T16:51:19Z theseb: Zhivago: two Toyota Celicas may be = (for some def of equal) but not the SAME car
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2014-12-05T16:51:53Z White_Flame: and then you have the Celica vs Celica GT (or whatever they have).  Yet another equality distinction
2014-12-05T16:51:55Z theseb: Zhivago: and if you insist on the same VINs they aren't even = so tricky
2014-12-05T16:52:04Z Zhivago: theseb: Like I said -- it's all down to sloppy language.
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2014-12-05T16:52:47Z White_Flame: Language is naturally sloppy
2014-12-05T16:53:05Z isoraqathedh: The amount of brainpower required for precise language is too high for too little payoff.
2014-12-05T16:53:13Z Zhivago: It comes down to essentially substitutability for a set of operations, and stability of that property over time.
2014-12-05T16:53:17Z White_Flame: so "sloppy language" is somewhat tautological :)  It's at least the default state
2014-12-05T16:53:38Z isoraqathedh: It's closer to "language that is good enough to describe everyday life and no more".
2014-12-05T16:53:39Z Zhivago: If you way to say that they are the same, you probably mean that one can be substituted for the other for any operation for all of time.
2014-12-05T16:53:55Z theseb: Zhivago: i like how you added "for a set of operations"...i think that is necessary to define those so very good
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2014-12-05T16:56:40Z Zhivago: isoraqathedh: Actually, identity is not a special case of equality, if you think about it clearly.
2014-12-05T16:57:28Z isoraqathedh: Hm?
2014-12-05T16:57:34Z isoraqathedh: It's not a special case. It's just a case.
2014-12-05T16:58:13Z Zhivago: Sure -- it's just the case of perpetual universable substitutability.
2014-12-05T16:59:01Z Zhivago: bbl
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2014-12-05T17:07:27Z Bayushi: I opened a file and forgot to bind the stream. Any way I can close it or get the stream back?
2014-12-05T17:08:55Z White_Flame: If it's possible at all, it'd be implementation-specific code
2014-12-05T17:09:23Z White_Flame: If the problem is that the filesystem won't let you reopen the file, just cycle your lisp image
2014-12-05T17:10:17Z White_Flame: also, try triggering a full GC.  It might be nice enough to trigger a close
2014-12-05T17:11:02Z White_Flame: If you're at the repl, you do have *, **, and *** which are bound to your last 3 results.  If your file handle is still there, you can reach it via that
2014-12-05T17:12:11Z Bayushi: ah... yeah, would have worked if I'd thought of it in time, but I've had more than three expressions since now.  Thanks, though
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2014-12-05T17:12:55Z Grue`: slime remembers more than that
2014-12-05T17:12:56Z White_Flame: which means GC will now dispose of it. ;)  I've been hung up on things not collecting because */**/*** were still holding on to them
2014-12-05T17:13:00Z Grue`: via presentations
2014-12-05T17:13:04Z White_Flame: true
2014-12-05T17:13:36Z Bayushi: mm?  (either way, I've got everything I needed out of the environment and restarted the lisp, so shouldn't be an issue)
2014-12-05T17:16:55Z Grue`: basically the red things in slime repl are references to original lisp object even if that object cannot be directly entered into repl
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2014-12-05T17:17:24Z Grue`: you can right click on them and select Copy to REPL
2014-12-05T17:17:26Z Bayushi: Grue`: ah, nice, thanks
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2014-12-05T17:28:04Z black_13: what is the "smallest" lisp interpreter available (with c source)
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2014-12-05T17:29:12Z oleo: picolisp ?
2014-12-05T17:29:13Z Shinmera: Any Common Lisp interpreter is going to be big.
2014-12-05T17:29:23Z oleo: dunno
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2014-12-05T17:31:31Z jasom: there are about 1000 symbols in the specification
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2014-12-05T17:32:02Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2014-12-05T17:32:11Z black_13: picolisp is small but does not compile with visual studio
2014-12-05T17:33:06Z wasamasa: lol
2014-12-05T17:33:15Z wasamasa: if that's your criterium, you're going to have a hard time
2014-12-05T17:33:39Z jasom: what about 5k lisp or whatever it's called
2014-12-05T17:34:03Z black_13: i have see that thing ... its a night mare
2014-12-05T17:34:08Z black_13: but its small
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2014-12-05T17:34:34Z jasom: femto lisp is pretty small too
2014-12-05T17:34:34Z beach: black_13: What are you planning to do with it?
2014-12-05T17:34:56Z black_13: learn
2014-12-05T17:35:16Z beach: Learn to program in Lisp, or learn to write a Lisp system?
2014-12-05T17:35:23Z jasom: but this is getting off topic for this channel
2014-12-05T17:35:30Z black_13: i have become a better C programmer from looking at lisp interpreters of all things
2014-12-05T17:35:51Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2014-12-05T17:36:09Z wasamasa: use a linux system to become an even better one
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2014-12-05T17:36:37Z black_13: it would be nice to do linux coding
2014-12-05T17:36:47Z black_13: but currently the boss pays me to do windows
2014-12-05T17:37:06Z beach: black_13: A Lisp system written in C is kind of an aberration.
2014-12-05T17:37:18Z black_13: splain
2014-12-05T17:37:50Z black_13: what should it be written in and dont say that sarcastically i am open to advice
2014-12-05T17:37:53Z beach: black_13: Why would someone who writes a Lisp system use a much less powerful language to do it?  It would be more natural to write it in Lisp.
2014-12-05T17:38:20Z black_13: i gather that is what is done
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2014-12-05T17:38:35Z beach: For the serious system, yes.
2014-12-05T17:38:44Z jasom: black_13: all mcl and cmucl derivatives are written in lisp
2014-12-05T17:38:51Z black_13: but at some point there has to be some kind of  core inner interpreter
2014-12-05T17:39:00Z beach: No.  Why?
2014-12-05T17:39:06Z jasom: black_13: typically no, most common lisps are compiled to native code
2014-12-05T17:39:25Z jasom: black_13: even most of the the ones written in C
2014-12-05T17:39:46Z black_13: not lisp but scheme or chick scheme does that
2014-12-05T17:39:58Z black_13: scheme to C to native
2014-12-05T17:40:06Z jasom: clisp is the only byte-code interpreted one I can think of
2014-12-05T17:40:26Z jasom: (though many lisps have an interpreter for doing a fast evaluation of trivial forms)
2014-12-05T17:40:52Z beach: black_13: Compiling to C also introduces lots of constraints.  Better to generate native code directly.
2014-12-05T17:41:28Z dim: black_13: what language is used to write your C compiler already?
2014-12-05T17:41:33Z jasom: and compiling to c makes it harder to generate good code as C compilers are moving targets
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2014-12-05T17:43:26Z jasom: e.g. one compiler I used at one point generated poor code for array-index loops, but decent code for pointer-increment loops, but then a newer version added more optimizations and the array-index loop ended up being more optimal.
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2014-12-05T17:44:14Z black_13: C is written in C
2014-12-05T17:44:39Z jasom: black_13: right, and lisp is written in lisp
2014-12-05T17:44:42Z black_13: or so the GCC versions i have seen
2014-12-05T17:45:15Z nykac: jasom: most lisps are, I've seen some lisps written in c and ocaml
2014-12-05T17:45:17Z beach: dim: And writing a C compiler in C is an aberration as well.
2014-12-05T17:45:34Z jasom: nykac: and I've seen a C written in lisp
2014-12-05T17:45:55Z jasom: https://github.com/vsedach/Vacietis
2014-12-05T17:45:56Z nykac: beach: https://github.com/rswier/c4 c in 4 c functions 510 lines
2014-12-05T17:45:59Z black_13: so you are saying find a lisp that targets the native instruction set then write a "small" lisp in the larger lisps
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2014-12-05T17:46:25Z nykac: jasom: that is actually very useful to me
2014-12-05T17:46:36Z beach: black_13: Oh, you want to write a Lisp system?
2014-12-05T17:46:36Z black_13: nykac: very interesting
2014-12-05T17:46:38Z black_13: thanks
2014-12-05T17:47:19Z black_13: actually toying around with small lisp systems is like ... you notice how many mechnics have a beater they drive to work
2014-12-05T17:47:23Z black_13: mechanics
2014-12-05T17:48:27Z dim: beach: which language would you implement a C compiler in?
2014-12-05T17:48:38Z beach: dim: Lisp, of course.
2014-12-05T17:49:03Z beach: black_13: If you are interested in writing a Lisp system, I recommend you read Lisp in Small Pieces.
2014-12-05T17:49:21Z dim: fair enough, can I compile PostgreSQL with such a compiler?
2014-12-05T17:49:28Z beach: dim: It is crazy to write a compiler in a language without automatic memory management.
2014-12-05T17:49:36Z black_13: i have that book
2014-12-05T17:49:46Z black_13: well i have the dejavu file
2014-12-05T17:50:06Z black_13: and i have lots of little schemes and lisp i have collected
2014-12-05T17:50:11Z Shinmera: beach: For better or worse Programming certainly has no lack of crazy people
2014-12-05T17:50:25Z beach: Shinmera: True that.
2014-12-05T17:51:16Z beach: dim: Compilers for most languages basically only transform a text file to some binary file.  It can be done in any language, so you might as well choose a powerful one.
2014-12-05T17:51:34Z drewc: I think i'm crazy 𝅘𝅥𝅘𝅥
2014-12-05T17:51:39Z black_13: nykac: C4 looks interesting did you write it?
2014-12-05T17:51:50Z black_13: how did you come accross it
2014-12-05T17:53:53Z posttoasties_: Hi guys, I'm new to lisp. I'm writing a blackjack program, and I get an error that I don't understand:
2014-12-05T17:54:10Z posttoasties_: Lock on package COMMON-LISP violated when globally declaring VALUES special while in package COMMON-LISP-USER.
2014-12-05T17:54:19Z posttoasties_: This is on SBCL.
2014-12-05T17:54:29Z beach: posttoasties_: VALUES is a Common Lisp function.
2014-12-05T17:54:36Z jasom: hmm, I should write a C to native compiler in lisp, then ecl could be self-hosting
2014-12-05T17:54:36Z Bike: if it's a special you should call it "*values*"
2014-12-05T17:54:48Z posttoasties_: Ok. Thanks.
2014-12-05T17:55:00Z posttoasties_: Is there a way to create my own namespace?
2014-12-05T17:55:07Z posttoasties_: Like in c++?
2014-12-05T17:55:09Z White_Flame: yes, those are packages
2014-12-05T17:55:09Z beach: clhs defpackage
2014-12-05T17:55:09Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm
2014-12-05T17:55:16Z posttoasties_: Ok thanks guys.
2014-12-05T17:55:42Z White_Flame: by default, at the repl you end up in a package named COMMON-LISP-USER, which "use"s the COMMON-LISP package, which contains VALUES
2014-12-05T17:55:43Z jasom: minion: tell posttoasties_ about pcl
2014-12-05T17:55:43Z minion: posttoasties_: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2014-12-05T17:56:16Z jasom: posttoasties_: that's a good introduction to common lisp if you already know how to program in another language
2014-12-05T17:56:21Z posttoasties_: I've read a tad bit of pcl but I haven't finished it.
2014-12-05T17:58:19Z drewc: posttoasties_: well, reading will take less time then learning without a teaching text... so I recommend learning first by reading
2014-12-05T17:58:27Z jasom: posttoasties_: cool; just wanted to make sure you knew about it.
2014-12-05T17:58:33Z posttoasties_: Ok.
2014-12-05T17:59:16Z jasom: as usual I disagree with drewc :) I think learning by doing is effective, but read the book in parallel
2014-12-05T17:59:53Z drewc: jasom: where is the disagreement?
2014-12-05T18:00:09Z jasom: drewc: learn first by reading vs. reading in parallel
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2014-12-05T18:00:54Z jasom: I find doing and failing first gives me context for understanding the texts better
2014-12-05T18:00:56Z drewc: jasom: "reading will take less time then learning without a teaching text." .... no "do this only or die!!!" stated :)
2014-12-05T18:01:11Z jasom: true
2014-12-05T18:02:11Z drewc: jasom: and while you might disagree with yourself, and me, this is not a disagreement :P
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2014-12-05T18:04:19Z Shinmera sighs. Trying to make a runnable binary of a Qt app, but starting it immediately results in a memory corruption crash.
2014-12-05T18:05:00Z drewc thinks that "doing and failing first" is automatically disagreeing with oneself BTW.... no offence intended 
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2014-12-05T18:05:56Z drewc: Shinmera: don't cffi load the lib before dumping the image?
2014-12-05T18:06:31Z Shinmera: The (make-qapplication) call that loads the lib doesn't happen before runtime.
2014-12-05T18:06:39Z Shinmera: But loading the lib works fine, I tested that
2014-12-05T18:06:43Z jasom: drewc: s/doing/trying
2014-12-05T18:06:51Z Shinmera: It seems to crash upon trying to create a QApplication instance.
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2014-12-05T18:07:13Z Shinmera: I'm too sick and tired to mess with this any more for today.
2014-12-05T18:07:18Z Shinmera: *sick of this
2014-12-05T18:08:49Z jweiss: i'm using cffi, getting a segfault on collect_garbage. I just called one ffi function previously that returns boolean, and I didn't save the value in any variable so that it should get gc'd. not sure if that's what caused this. any ideas?
2014-12-05T18:11:26Z jweiss: is the gc trying to free a piece of memory not owned by sbcl? not sure how that happens.
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2014-12-05T18:15:48Z White_Flame: does the FFI start any new threads, or allocate memory?
2014-12-05T18:16:17Z theseb: jasom: writing a lisp compiler that compiles to native code sounds harder than compiling to C
2014-12-05T18:16:29Z White_Flame: theseb: I would disagree
2014-12-05T18:16:39Z White_Flame: C is a more constraining ABI
2014-12-05T18:16:41Z theseb: jasom: for the former you need to know assembly and it will be nonportable...for the latter you get to stay at the higher level of C
2014-12-05T18:17:00Z theseb: White_Flame: yes but assembly is butt hard
2014-12-05T18:17:06Z White_Flame: no it's not
2014-12-05T18:17:10Z theseb: White_Flame: why would you want to go there?
2014-12-05T18:17:16Z White_Flame: asm is all about specification
2014-12-05T18:17:19Z theseb: White_Flame: why not let gcc do it for you?
2014-12-05T18:17:23Z White_Flame: and specifically for code generation
2014-12-05T18:17:29Z White_Flame: because GCC doesn't compile lisp-isms
2014-12-05T18:17:51Z White_Flame: and converting lisp-isms to a custom asm ABI would have far less impedance mismatch than converting Lisp-isms to C-isms
2014-12-05T18:18:02Z theseb: White_Flame: so the issue is C and lisp are vastly different models whereas asm doesn't have that impedance mismatch
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2014-12-05T18:18:22Z White_Flame: for instance, the carry flag is often used in lisp function calls.  You don't even have access to that in C
2014-12-05T18:18:24Z theseb: White_Flame: wait..it isn't as if assembly is lisp friendly.
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2014-12-05T18:18:48Z theseb: White_Flame:  C and assembly are actually very similar
2014-12-05T18:18:57Z Bike: they really aren't
2014-12-05T18:18:59Z White_Flame: you can _build_ good, fast lisp-ism support in asm
2014-12-05T18:19:01Z theseb: White_Flame: you basically put values in memory and mess with them
2014-12-05T18:19:03Z White_Flame: you can't in C
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2014-12-05T18:19:09Z jasom: theseb: assembly is imo easier than C for code-gen
2014-12-05T18:19:35Z theseb: Bike: but C and assembly just fiddle memory locations at end of the day
2014-12-05T18:19:46Z Bike: no, that is a stupid thing to say
2014-12-05T18:19:52Z jasom: theseb: things are much more well defined, and any halfway fast C code will be hairy anyway
2014-12-05T18:19:53Z Bike: you might as well say all lisp does is "fiddle memory"
2014-12-05T18:19:58Z White_Flame: you can't have good CPU stack manipulation in C to provide for more flexible parameter support or closure linkages, for instance
2014-12-05T18:20:15Z jasom: White_Flame: unless you cheat (like clisp does)
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2014-12-05T18:20:34Z White_Flame: I haven't seen what CLISP does in recent years
2014-12-05T18:20:45Z jasom: clisp does stack manipulation which is why it's totally non-portable
2014-12-05T18:20:46Z Bike: C has a complex abstract machine model, it is not "close to the metal" or whatever silliness you've heard
2014-12-05T18:21:00Z jasom: there are dozens of files that are to implement that correctly for compiler X on architecture Y
2014-12-05T18:21:21Z White_Flame: and when you're fundamentally redefining what a "function call" or "variable access" is, C's existing, immutable declarations of what those are just get in the way
2014-12-05T18:21:36Z jasom: Bike: indeed, the only normative section of the C99 standard that mentions "memory" is malloc
2014-12-05T18:21:45Z White_Flame: jasom: yep, that sound about right
2014-12-05T18:22:19Z theseb: wow...compiling lisp to assembly is about as hardcore as it gets....my hat is off to you guys
2014-12-05T18:22:30Z Bike: it's really not as hard as you're imagining
2014-12-05T18:22:34Z White_Flame: the output of compilers is assembly-like
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2014-12-05T18:22:50Z Bike: try writing assembly sometime, it's fun (if you're on RISC anyway, x86 seems hairier)
2014-12-05T18:23:04Z White_Flame: easy HLL->HLL transformation is pretty limited to languages that are conceptually similar
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2014-12-05T18:23:17Z theseb: Bike: yea...i was thinking of learning arduino inside and out
2014-12-05T18:23:22Z jasom: theseb: writing a program in assembly is hard, writing a compiler that outputs assembly is *much* easier
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2014-12-05T18:23:38Z theseb: Bike: maybe putting lisp on it and making a mil or 2 doing something cool....think there's a chance :)
2014-12-05T18:23:40Z Bike: with a compiler targeting C you have to fight C in some places. off the top of my head, chicken scheme does some weird UB bullshit with trampolines and tail calls, i think
2014-12-05T18:24:28Z theseb: jasom: yea..i sort arrived at the same conclusion i think...you'd basically want to write a program to write asm programs for you :)
2014-12-05T18:24:53Z White_Flame: and seeing as we're talking about compilation, that "want" is implicit here
2014-12-05T18:24:59Z drewc is learning quantum computing, where there is no state and no memory per se.... so has to gt away from this conversation before his mind explodes!!!!!!
2014-12-05T18:25:12Z theseb: jasom: iirc the 1st iterations of that were called "macros" and the first such apps "assembled macros together"...hence the name!
2014-12-05T18:25:13Z Bike: no state in quantum physics, huh :P
2014-12-05T18:25:15Z faheem_: can someone remind me what one needs to hook into the customize what is printed as a representation when one types an object on the repl?
2014-12-05T18:25:22Z Bike: faheem_: print-object
2014-12-05T18:25:27Z faheem_: Bike: thanks
2014-12-05T18:25:37Z drewc: Bike: or all states at once\
2014-12-05T18:25:38Z faheem_:  into the customize  ->  into to customize
2014-12-05T18:25:53Z jasom: theseb: my computer-architecture course used an assembler with no macro processing, so I used m4 for all of my assignments
2014-12-05T18:25:59Z drewc: Bike: there is a cat in the box ;0
2014-12-05T18:26:53Z faheem_: Something like this, right?
2014-12-05T18:26:59Z faheem_: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/HmffyzNU
2014-12-05T18:27:17Z Bike: I don't think that is what you meant it to be
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2014-12-05T18:28:07Z faheem_: Bike: it's an old example i dug out from somewhere. but that's the right syntax form, yes?
2014-12-05T18:28:11Z ggole: IIRC chicken works by growing the stack until it runs out of space, then relabelling it the heap and continuing somewhere else.
2014-12-05T18:28:21Z Bike: faheem_: it is a function completely unrelated to printing as far as i can tell
2014-12-05T18:28:25Z White_Flame: just google for "defmethod print-object" to find many examples
2014-12-05T18:28:30Z ggole: The old "stack" is then GCd.
2014-12-05T18:28:38Z faheem_: Bike: oh, ok. my bad
2014-12-05T18:30:13Z ggole: It's based on one of those wonderful old Henry Baker papers, "CONS should not CONS its arguments"
2014-12-05T18:30:39Z faheem_: White_Flame: ok
2014-12-05T18:33:51Z theseb: drewc: never heard of a quantum state? :)
2014-12-05T18:34:09Z White_Flame: ggole: skimming the paper, it sounds like CONS always CONSes its arguments :)
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2014-12-05T18:34:26Z White_Flame: since it would always transfer its arguments to the heap, as they're part of the return value
2014-12-05T18:34:44Z White_Flame: if cons were truly a called function
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2014-12-05T18:35:16Z drewc: theseb: "First, it has no registers or memory locations and hence does not possess anything which is analogous to state" -- http://www.dwavesys.com/sites/default/files/Map%20Coloring%20WP2.pdf
2014-12-05T18:35:28Z theseb: Bike: Why did Chicken creator persist for so many years making is Lisp-2-C compiler so mature ?
2014-12-05T18:35:35Z White_Flame: s/state/traditional CPU state/
2014-12-05T18:35:57Z drewc: theseb: and guess what language they compile to quantum machine code? ;)
2014-12-05T18:36:33Z White_Flame: drewc: I see dwave often having open positions.  Do they do contractors as well?
2014-12-05T18:36:34Z theseb: Bike: dunno if he's getting paid yet he spent a grgantuan amount of time
2014-12-05T18:36:42Z theseb: quite a heroic feat if you ask me
2014-12-05T18:36:58Z White_Flame: theseb: inertia?
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2014-12-05T18:37:59Z theseb: White_Flame: we all could use such "inertia"....do awesome stuff then make it so you can't stop being awesome because of "inertia" ..i like it
2014-12-05T18:38:18Z drewc: White_Flame: no idea ... I am actually applying for a position there. I was offered one in like 2007, but was not quite 'ready' IMO. Now 7 years later, I am likely to only one to fill it.
2014-12-05T18:38:44Z theseb: drewc: quantum computer company?
2014-12-05T18:38:45Z White_Flame: theseb: inertia keeps people building on top of more complex foundations, instead of rethinking what they're fundamentally doing
2014-12-05T18:38:54Z drewc: theseb: the one and only
2014-12-05T18:39:07Z theseb: drewc: dude....stock options time!
2014-12-05T18:39:13Z theseb: major chaching potential
2014-12-05T18:39:22Z drewc: theseb: young are you? ;)
2014-12-05T18:39:32Z theseb: White_Flame: well when you put it that way that sounds depressing for him :)
2014-12-05T18:39:44Z theseb: drewc: young old no matter...money still spends the same :)
2014-12-05T18:39:46Z ggole: White_Flame: there isn't any return value in the suggested technique.
2014-12-05T18:40:16Z White_Flame: ggole: if CONS was a called function, it would be.  If CONS is inline, then you're right.  Just a literalistic nitpick :)
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2014-12-05T18:40:34Z drewc: theseb: lack of answer and thought make the question irrelevant, so thank you for not answering :)
2014-12-05T18:40:52Z theseb: um...np?
2014-12-05T18:40:59Z ggole: No, I'm serious. There are no returns and no return values in the given technique.
2014-12-05T18:41:25Z theseb: drewc: wait..what was the question? whether i'm young?
2014-12-05T18:41:41Z ggole: The idea is to transform everything into CPS, in which "return values" get turned into arguments.
2014-12-05T18:41:54Z theseb: drewc: i'm a physicist so i know a little about quantum computers...hey if it works out for you that's great..best wishes
2014-12-05T18:41:58Z theseb: drewc: that's all i'm sayin
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2014-12-05T18:44:22Z drewc: theseb: and a capitalist as well? OR: you mentioned fiat currency before you mentioned physics... that's all i'm sayin
2014-12-05T18:45:22Z drewc is working with qubits so apologizes for his mind acting up
2014-12-05T18:46:01Z theseb: drewc: well we live in a capitalist world so capital potential is appreciated
2014-12-05T18:46:41Z theseb: drewc: my only fear would be spending 30 years working on quantum computers and it turns out like fusion....neverending story
2014-12-05T18:47:05Z White_Flame: if you're paid well, the work is fun, and the team is good, why?
2014-12-05T18:47:11Z drewc: theseb: Ok, thanks for explaining your thoughts about the world you wish existed. Cheers.
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2014-12-05T18:47:40Z theseb: White_Flame: well if the pinata never breaks then how are people going to keep getting paid?
2014-12-05T18:47:49Z White_Flame: (disclaimer:  I have no idea what DWave is like to work for)
2014-12-05T18:48:02Z White_Flame: theseb: they already have shipped hardware
2014-12-05T18:48:09Z White_Flame: 2 generations, afair
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2014-12-05T18:48:33Z drewc: Their main clients are NASA and Google.
2014-12-05T18:48:35Z White_Flame: sure, they might be overtaken by traditional tech, or by new non-adiabatic quantum machines, but every business has that risk
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2014-12-05T18:49:55Z theseb: White_Flame: yea i heard that but i was skeptical.....a real quantum computing *product* ? freaky
2014-12-05T18:50:14Z theseb: White_Flame: i did the TL;DR...maybe i should look into it more
2014-12-05T18:50:46Z White_Flame: They're only billed for a particular class of problems.  This isn't encryption-destroying full theoreticized quantum computing
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2014-12-05T18:51:14Z theseb: White_Flame: yes but still...a *product* is impressive even if for a small niche
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2014-12-05T18:51:37Z drewc: But beyond that, I live in a non-capitalistic world where what I do with my time is more important than making loot with it... and I have not had a job for some 15 years, so looking forward to that aspect as well... and it is SBCL after all. So on-topic sorta.
2014-12-05T18:51:43Z White_Flame: and there has been some contention on whether or not it's actually faster than a similarly-priced traditional machine
2014-12-05T18:51:46Z theseb: White_Flame: plus....even a little revenue from the government teet will keep the R&D going
2014-12-05T18:51:59Z White_Flame: but hey, they do use lisp & a form of quantum computing.  So that's cool.
2014-12-05T18:52:20Z White_Flame: I'm not sure the canadian government is funding them
2014-12-05T18:52:28Z theseb: drewc: what country?
2014-12-05T18:53:06Z theseb: skeptical you live in a "non-capitalistic" country
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2014-12-05T18:53:24Z drewc: White_Flame: No, they are not. Private Investors AFAIK ... folks who want to spent billions in order to make trillions this lifetime I guess.
2014-12-05T18:53:24Z White_Flame: theseb: you said "world", not "country"
2014-12-05T18:53:53Z theseb: i know
2014-12-05T18:54:08Z drewc: theseb: I live on a sailboat on the Pacific Ocean and fly the Metis flag.
2014-12-05T18:54:38Z jasom: drewc: blue or red?
2014-12-05T18:54:41Z theseb: drewc: srsly?
2014-12-05T18:55:02Z theseb: dude....#lisp is dripping with hardcore everywhere you look
2014-12-05T18:55:40Z Shinmera groans
2014-12-05T18:55:43Z drewc: jasom: red, though I have a blue... and the infinity sign tattooed on my ring finger as well
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2014-12-05T18:56:41Z theseb: drewc: does it ever get "headachy" living in a 'house' that bobs up and down all the time?
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2014-12-05T18:56:44Z jweiss: White_Flame: (sorry for the late response) - no, the function I'm calling takes no args and returns a boolean.
2014-12-05T18:56:44Z drewc: theseb: http://bowen-island.com/ <--- mine is the 45' flush decked cutter in the middle. She is a nice ship.
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2014-12-05T18:57:30Z theseb: drewc: wow..that's amazing
2014-12-05T18:57:32Z drewc: theseb: it is called stillness illness, land-sickness or drunken sailor.... so no, the exact opposite.
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2014-12-05T18:58:27Z drewc: and up and down is very little, I am 28 tonnes. Side to side, otoh, and fore to aft... happens every split second.
2014-12-05T18:58:44Z theseb: drewc: ever tried to sail to hawaii or japan or ??? for fun?
2014-12-05T18:58:54Z Xach: Maybe you could discuss such things via private messages.
2014-12-05T18:59:08Z theseb: Xach: aw man..it was just getting good
2014-12-05T18:59:11Z drewc: Xach: agreed
2014-12-05T18:59:12Z theseb grumbles.
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2014-12-05T19:20:34Z White_Flame: ggole: yeah, it still looks like inlining of cons to avoid it being a return value
2014-12-05T19:20:58Z ggole: Are we reading the same paper?
2014-12-05T19:21:46Z White_Flame: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.39.4206 ?
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2014-12-05T19:22:41Z ggole: Yeah, there's really nothing about inlining there.
2014-12-05T19:23:00Z White_Flame: end of page 3
2014-12-05T19:23:32Z ggole: Look at the end of the paper where it has a C implementation of cons that doesn't return.
2014-12-05T19:23:49Z White_Flame: okay, not there yet.  Haven't read this paper before, so digesting it
2014-12-05T19:24:18Z ggole: Read carefully, it's a bit eyebrow raising :)
2014-12-05T19:24:23Z ggole: (Great paper.)
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2014-12-05T19:24:48Z White_Flame: ah right, the continuation passing style
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2014-12-05T19:28:50Z White_Flame: of course, my knowledge base style projects tend to have massive long-lived heaps
2014-12-05T19:29:07Z White_Flame: so that always pokes out at me with the assumptions of "normal" object lifespans
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2014-12-05T19:38:40Z rhllor: does anyone know any good resources for learning to use usocket?
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2014-12-05T19:44:10Z White_Flame: rhllor: I know I had to dig into the source to answer questions I had about what particular parameters meant
2014-12-05T19:44:42Z White_Flame: any questions in particular?
2014-12-05T19:45:10Z rhllor: pretty much how to use it
2014-12-05T19:45:49Z rhllor: how do I make a server and how do I connect a socket to a server and whatnot
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2014-12-05T19:46:13Z dlowe: er, the usocket docs don't cover that?
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2014-12-05T19:46:43Z rhllor: what docs? i didn't see any
2014-12-05T19:47:15Z White_Flame: There's the API spec: http://common-lisp.net/project/usocket/api-docs.shtml
2014-12-05T19:48:06Z rhllor: wow, thanks! I didn't see those before
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2014-12-05T19:48:37Z White_Flame: they're linked from usocket's project page
2014-12-05T19:48:42Z White_Flame: under "Documentation"
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2014-12-05T19:52:36Z rhllor: I feel so stupid
2014-12-05T19:53:07Z White_Flame: at least you didn't roll your own socket library first ;)
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2014-12-05T20:02:24Z jasom: rhllor: note that usocket has some limitations.  No poll, no socketpair, no non-blocking calls.
2014-12-05T20:03:24Z rhllor: jasom: what would you recommend then, cl-scokets?
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2014-12-05T20:10:00Z dim: there's iolib, with a system level dependency (libfixposix)
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2014-12-05T20:14:40Z black_13: drewc: what does i cost in dock fees to keep a boat like that
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2014-12-05T20:18:38Z drewc: black_13: That all depends on where when and how of course, but I pay yearly for this slip, so "$8.90 per ft per month plus GST" + power and water. Roughly $500 CAD.
2014-12-05T20:18:59Z drewc: And this is all on topic in #drewc or a private message!
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2014-12-05T20:21:42Z jasom: rhllor: it depends on what you want to do
2014-12-05T20:22:11Z jasom: basic-binary-ipc is good if you want non-blocking sockets; cl-async if you want an event-loop baked in
2014-12-05T20:22:22Z jasom: rhllor: iolib is also good, but is linux and bsd only
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2014-12-05T20:23:10Z jasom: rhllor: and if you just want to open a socket and treat it like a blocking stream, usocket is fine
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2014-12-05T20:29:22Z rhllor: jasom: I just want some simple stuff for now.
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2014-12-05T20:39:20Z jasom: rhllor: usocket is a good starting place then.
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2014-12-05T20:40:37Z rhllor: cyoo
2014-12-05T20:43:13Z faheem_: I'm looking at http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_pr_obj.htm
2014-12-05T20:43:18Z faheem_: this all seems very complicated.
2014-12-05T20:43:55Z faheem_: is it necessary to specify what happens when *print-readably* is defined, for example?
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2014-12-05T20:44:16Z faheem_: and i'm not clear what the purpose defining these variables is. to customize behavior?
2014-12-05T20:44:53Z faheem_: also, how does one set *print-readably*. i tried to set it to true in the REPL, and it wouldn't let me.
2014-12-05T20:47:06Z Xach: faheem_: (setf *print-readably* t) is one way.
2014-12-05T20:47:11Z White_Flame: if you defer your output to (format stream ...) inside your method, that format call will obey all those variables
2014-12-05T20:47:26Z faheem_: Xach: i tried defparameter
2014-12-05T20:47:41Z faheem_: which seems the right thing to do
2014-12-05T20:47:46Z White_Flame: it's already defined.  don't define it again
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2014-12-05T20:47:55Z faheem_: White_Flame: oh, right
2014-12-05T20:47:58Z White_Flame: set its value instead, or bind it locally with (let ((*print-readably* t)) ...)
2014-12-05T20:48:05Z faheem_: White_Flame: ok
2014-12-05T20:48:19Z faheem_: i didn't know it was defined
2014-12-05T20:48:20Z Xach: faheem_: that is "forbidden" by http://l1sp.org/cl/11.1.2.1.2
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2014-12-05T20:48:45Z White_Flame: if CLHS refers to a named special variable, it's already defined
2014-12-05T20:48:51Z White_Flame: you can click on them and read more
2014-12-05T20:49:07Z faheem_: White_Flame: Ok, I'll try to bear that in mind.
2014-12-05T20:49:27Z White_Flame: and not only are they defined, but they have a default value
2014-12-05T20:49:33Z faheem_: White_Flame: ok
2014-12-05T20:49:39Z White_Flame: so the code only reads the value, doesn't check if it's defined or not
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2014-12-05T20:49:54Z faheem_: White_Flame: right
2014-12-05T20:50:32Z faheem_: are those variables used in practice? so some code might change the settings for some reason? don't use a use case.
2014-12-05T20:50:35Z dlowe: uh. sb-bsd-sockets failed on an sbcl build for me
2014-12-05T20:50:40Z dlowe: huh, I meant
2014-12-05T20:50:47Z faheem_: don't see a use case, i mean
2014-12-05T20:51:19Z Xach: faheem_: print/read consistency is a useful property, and it can be useful for something that outputs something that cannot be read to signal an error
2014-12-05T20:51:40Z Xach: faheem_: so instead of silently getting unreadable output, you get a chance to intercede.
2014-12-05T20:52:11Z faheem_: Xach: what is "unreadable output"?
2014-12-05T20:52:20Z White_Flame: faheem_: they configure the built-in print rendering
2014-12-05T20:52:24Z faheem_: the CLHS refers to it, but I wasn't sure what was meant
2014-12-05T20:52:28Z Xach: faheem_: output that does not produce a similar object when used as input to READ
2014-12-05T20:52:44Z faheem_: Xach: oh.
2014-12-05T20:53:06Z White_Flame: to be a bit more clear, it's sometimes spelled READable, harkening to #'READ
2014-12-05T20:53:21Z faheem_: White_Flame: ok. configurable by the user, presumably.
2014-12-05T20:54:18Z White_Flame: for instance, *print-circle* and *print-length* can be very slow on huge output
2014-12-05T20:54:42Z White_Flame: and you might want to disable *print-circle* or *print-level* if you want exhaustive display of some nested structure
2014-12-05T20:56:07Z White_Flame: usually it's user interactive cases like that.  But adjusting base, radix, case, etc is also used in programmatic printing
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2014-12-05T21:02:31Z faheem_: White_Flame: i see. i'm not aware of an analog in the few languages i know.
2014-12-05T21:02:35Z faheem_: so it is harder to relate
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2014-12-05T21:03:47Z White_Flame: in the other languages you know, you have parameters given to print functions, often with default values if the language supports it
2014-12-05T21:04:27Z White_Flame: putting all those print options in special variables is a much more organized way to deal with these things
2014-12-05T21:04:56Z White_Flame: regardless if you're setting an option "globally" or for a single invocation
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2014-12-05T21:05:52Z faheem_: White_Flame: i see. i've used R, Python and C++. Of those, I only recall the C++ override.
2014-12-05T21:06:08Z faheem_: print method override, i mean.
2014-12-05T21:06:23Z faheem_: maybe the other two have override methods too, but I don't know what they are
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2014-12-05T21:07:41Z drmeister: Is there any way to indicate the path to an ASDF system .asd file?
2014-12-05T21:07:56Z drmeister: (asdf:load-system "sys:kernel;contrib;slime;swank.asd") doesn't work.
2014-12-05T21:08:10Z Shinmera: You have to configure ASDF to find the file
2014-12-05T21:08:32Z drmeister: Yeah, that's what I'm trying to avoid.   I can't get some of the configuration approaches to work.
2014-12-05T21:09:21Z Shinmera: You should be able to just CL:LOAD the asd file, though some things might not work properly.
2014-12-05T21:09:41Z drmeister: What's the easiest, idiomatic way to configure ASDF to find a system?    The only thing that is working for me right now is to exit Clasp and set the CL_SOURCE_REGISTRY environment variable and start it back up again.
2014-12-05T21:09:50Z Shinmera: (I'm not sure how ASDF determines the system's source directory, which is what I'm fearing might break if you just CL:LOAD the .asd)
2014-12-05T21:10:11Z Shinmera: drmeister: You can push to asdf:*central-registry*
2014-12-05T21:10:31Z drmeister: Do you push a pathname to the directory that contains the .asd file?
2014-12-05T21:10:36Z Shinmera: I think so.
2014-12-05T21:10:53Z Shinmera: http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Configuring-ASDF-to-find-your-systems-_002d_002d_002d-old-style.html#Configuring-ASDF-to-find-your-systems-_002d_002d_002d-old-style
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2014-12-05T21:11:31Z reb`: drmeister: The "right" way is to create a source-registry.conf file.
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2014-12-05T21:12:15Z drmeister: Shinmera: What do you know, this time it appears to work.   I was banging my head against the wall a couple of weeks ago to get this to work and gave up.
2014-12-05T21:12:34Z Shinmera: ‾\(ツ)/‾
2014-12-05T21:12:46Z reb`: drmeister: Here's what mine looks like: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144598
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2014-12-05T21:17:49Z drmeister: reb`: Thank you
2014-12-05T21:18:31Z White_Flame: I have a project.lisp which scans the local filesystem, based on the version control checkout root, and discovers everything in my lib directory, pushing that to *central-registry*
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2014-12-05T21:18:59Z faheem_: White_Flame: what if it isn't under version control?
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2014-12-05T21:19:09Z White_Flame: then it's not part of the project
2014-12-05T21:19:28Z White_Flame: repeatable builds means all libraries are included
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2014-12-05T21:19:46Z dlowe: I just do find ~/code -name '*.asd' -print0 | xargs -0 ln -sft ~/quicklisp/local-projects
2014-12-05T21:20:25Z White_Flame: dlowe: wouldn't quite work for multiple versions of the same codebase
2014-12-05T21:21:03Z dlowe: ... I use source control to ensure that doesn't happen to me.
2014-12-05T21:21:21Z White_Flame: you never have multiple checkouts simultaneously?
2014-12-05T21:21:46Z dlowe: it's really, really rare, and transitory when it does happen
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2014-12-05T21:24:45Z _death: so.. I just tried autowrap.. it's pretty nice
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2014-12-05T21:44:34Z drmeister: ARGH,  now (push "sys:kernel;contrib;slime;" asdf:*central-registry*) is not working.
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2014-12-05T23:38:05Z AeroNotix: What are some nice documentation generators?
2014-12-05T23:38:11Z AeroNotix: source-to-html
2014-12-05T23:38:19Z AeroNotix: docstrings*-to-html
2014-12-05T23:39:28Z Shinmera: I like my own, which is called Staple
2014-12-05T23:39:45Z Shinmera: I don't know if it fits your idea of "nice" though
2014-12-05T23:40:01Z H4ns: my last adventures in that field were the other way round, documentation to docstrings.
2014-12-05T23:40:34Z AeroNotix: Basically I want to have a static site which is a mixture of freeform text files and documentation generated from Lisp files.
2014-12-05T23:40:54Z AeroNotix: Something akin to Sphinx with Python would be great.
2014-12-05T23:40:56Z H4ns: ii find that usually, whe documenttion requires richer markup than the docstrings, and as such, it is better to write the documentation and generate the docstrings from it rather than trying it the other way round
2014-12-05T23:41:07Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: Staple can do that.
2014-12-05T23:41:15Z AeroNotix: H4ns: tbh, you did that with drakma and it's not very fun to contribute to
2014-12-05T23:41:23Z AeroNotix: just sayin'
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2014-12-05T23:41:33Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: You might want to create a custom Clip template to really suit your needs though.
2014-12-05T23:41:45Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: do you have documentation for your documentation generator?
2014-12-05T23:41:47Z AeroNotix: :)
2014-12-05T23:41:52Z H4ns: AeroNotix: documentation is not the "fun" activity in programming, whatever way you put it.
2014-12-05T23:42:00Z AeroNotix: H4ns: sure
2014-12-05T23:42:12Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: I do. http://shinmera.github.io/staple/
2014-12-05T23:42:40Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: For the template see the default used: https://github.com/Shinmera/staple/blob/master/default.ctml
2014-12-05T23:42:43Z AeroNotix: gmm
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2014-12-05T23:47:13Z Shinmera: It's likely that there's others that are better than Staple, but I wouldn't know since I never looked for any.
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2014-12-05T23:47:59Z Shinmera: If you have any questions that the docs don't answer, leave me a memo. I direly need to catch some sleep.
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2014-12-14T06:05:07Z arrdem: is there a prefix character typically associated with macro naming?
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2014-12-14T06:05:34Z kami: Good morning.
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2014-12-14T06:12:26Z beach: arrdem: No.
2014-12-14T06:12:34Z beach: Hello kami.
2014-12-14T06:12:55Z beach: arrdem: What made you think there might be?
2014-12-14T06:13:49Z arrdem: beach: I'm not aware of one... I'm playing with a reader macro implementation that does no eval in the reader and was kicking around some naming ideas for prefixes on reader emitted macros.
2014-12-14T06:14:24Z beach: Are we talking macros or reader macros here?
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2014-12-14T06:15:25Z arrdem: macros. nevermind silly idea.
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2014-12-14T06:18:04Z beach: Is there a way in SBCL to determine how much space remains on the control stack?
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2014-12-14T06:24:58Z beach: I see the variables SB-VM:*CONTROL-STACK-START* and SB-VM:*CONTROL-STACK-END* but I don't see a way of obtaining the current stack pointer.
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2014-12-14T06:53:06Z pjb: beach: the current stack pointer would depend on the current thread.
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2014-12-14T06:53:30Z pjb: *control-stack-start/end* is probably not thread-specific.
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2014-12-14T06:53:56Z pjb: You could probably write a simple VOP to get the current stack pointer.
2014-12-14T06:54:46Z |3b| would expect it to be thread specific
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2014-12-14T07:00:51Z beach: I definitely need the values for the current thread.
2014-12-14T07:01:50Z beach: But, like |3b|, I am also guessing those values to be for the current thread.  Otherwise, they would make no sense.
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2014-12-14T07:02:37Z beach: I think I'll try to convince some SBCL expert to write such a VOP for me, should that turn out to be necessary.
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2014-12-14T07:05:22Z pjb: beach: you're right, they have different values in different threads.
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2014-12-14T07:09:12Z pjb: beach: what about sb-vm::*alien-stack* ?
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2014-12-14T07:10:51Z beach: Looks promising.
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2014-12-14T07:11:29Z beach: That can't be it.
2014-12-14T07:11:48Z beach: It is not a value between ..start* and ..end*.
2014-12-14T07:12:29Z beach: I don't expect it to be the value of a variable.
2014-12-14T07:12:43Z pjb: Right, it doesn't change. But it seems to be:  (sb-kernel:control-stack-pointer-sap)
2014-12-14T07:13:03Z beach: It would be too costly to assign to that variable every time the stack grows or shrinks.
2014-12-14T07:13:51Z beach: I tried that too, but I couldn't interpret it as a value between start and end.
2014-12-14T07:14:29Z beach: Maybe if I divide it by 2.
2014-12-14T07:15:24Z beach: That must be it.
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2014-12-14T07:15:45Z beach: Now I just need to figure out how to get the numeric value from the SAP.
2014-12-14T07:15:56Z pjb:  (list SB-VM:*CONTROL-STACK-START* SB-VM:*CONTROL-STACK-END* (sb-sys:sap-int  (sb-kernel:control-stack-pointer-sap)))
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2014-12-14T07:16:09Z beach: Nice!  Thanks.
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2014-12-14T07:17:03Z beach: Some serious cargo-cult technique here. :)
2014-12-14T07:17:22Z pjb: We should check the sources :-)
2014-12-14T07:17:32Z beach: Yeah, at some point.
2014-12-14T07:19:18Z beach: So the remaining stack space can be expressed as: (- (/ (sb-sys:sap-int (sb-kernel:control-stack-pointer-sap)) 2) sb-vm:*control-stack-start*) it seems.
2014-12-14T07:19:32Z beach: In bytes, I would think.
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2014-12-14T07:20:45Z pjb: (defvar *thread-stack-size* 0) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (setf *thread-stack-size* (- (/ (sb-sys:sap-int (sb-kernel:control-stack-pointer-sap)) 2) sb-vm:*control-stack-start*))))  (list *thread-stack-size* (- (/ (sb-sys:sap-int (sb-kernel:control-stack-pointer-sap)) 2) sb-vm:*control-stack-start*)) --> (1045128 1042336)
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2014-12-14T07:21:01Z pjb: Ah right, with swank everything runs in a thread.
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2014-12-14T07:22:51Z zRecursive: ls
2014-12-14T07:24:08Z beach: Thanks pjb!
2014-12-14T07:24:09Z pjb: beach: I thought the default thread stack size was 2MB.  Perhaps it's sb-vm:*control-stack-start* that should be multiplied by 2?  The vop control-stack-pointer-sap seems to return the raw stack pointer.
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2014-12-14T07:24:33Z beach: You might very well be right.
2014-12-14T07:25:33Z beach: For my purpose, the unit doesn't matter because I need to divide that number by some stack frame size to determine how many recursive calls I can make, and I am going to figure out the stack frame size by trial and error anyway.
2014-12-14T07:25:46Z beach: This is just for a paper, not for production code.
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2014-12-14T07:26:25Z pjb: There's (sb-kernel::control-stack-usage)
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2014-12-14T07:27:29Z beach: OK, excellent.
2014-12-14T07:27:31Z pjb: beach: so (- sb-vm:*control-stack-end* sb-vm:*control-stack-start* (sb-kernel::control-stack-usage)) is probably a better form.
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2014-12-14T07:27:44Z beach: Yes, I agree.
2014-12-14T07:28:05Z pjb: or perhaps: (- (abs (- sb-vm:*control-stack-end* sb-vm:*control-stack-start*)) (sb-kernel::control-stack-usage))
2014-12-14T07:29:12Z beach: It doesn't matter if this way of doing it is specific to a processor.
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2014-12-14T07:30:30Z beach: I will use it to replace the number 10000 in section 3.2 of this paper: http://metamodular.com/reverse-order.pdf
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2014-12-14T08:01:55Z beach: pjb: What do you think about the paper (or what's in it as of now)?
2014-12-14T08:02:56Z drmeister: Hello, I got slime to work with clasp.
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2014-12-14T08:04:19Z beach: Congratulations!
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2014-12-14T08:06:58Z drmeister: Thanks. I'm off to bed. I hope everything is going well
2014-12-14T08:07:11Z beach: Yes, thanks.  Good night.
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2014-12-14T08:39:14Z Hi-Angel: Why for I am executing something like «(describe 'anything)», it lists a dependencies and shows a link to a documentation? Shouldn't it print the documentation itself?
2014-12-14T08:39:40Z beach: No, that would be the function DOCUMENTATION.
2014-12-14T08:39:43Z beach: clhs documentation
2014-12-14T08:39:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm
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2014-12-14T08:42:50Z beach: Actually, DESCRIBE prints the documentation as well in SBCL.
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2014-12-14T08:44:03Z beach: Hi-Angel: What implementation are you using?
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2014-12-14T08:44:24Z stassats: let me guess, clisp
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2014-12-14T08:44:35Z Hi-Angel: Yep
2014-12-14T08:44:37Z Hi-Angel: Probably I'd better stick with sbck instead of clisp…
2014-12-14T08:44:57Z Hi-Angel: *sbcl
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2014-12-14T08:48:47Z Hi-Angel: Howerer, I couldn't understand at all the documentation for the method «documentation» :D/☹ Why it is written in c notation instead of lisp? Why the last argument I see is «(eql 't)» which is a function, that would be executed, and it should take two args instead of one… Oh, it just blazes my mind, I do not understand anything :(
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2014-12-14T08:49:25Z stassats: that happens
2014-12-14T08:49:33Z beach: Heh!
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2014-12-14T08:51:59Z |3b|: Hi-Angel: (eql t) sounds like a parameter specializer for a generic function method
2014-12-14T08:52:59Z beach: It is.
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2014-12-14T08:53:58Z |3b| doesn't see anything in C notation though
2014-12-14T08:54:08Z stassats: i think Hi-Angel doesn't know yet about generic functions and specializers
2014-12-14T08:54:23Z stassats: and C notation would be BNF
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2014-12-14T08:55:19Z Hi-Angel: Yes, I didn't knew. Thank, I'll read about it ☺
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2014-12-14T08:56:04Z Hi-Angel: *thank you
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2014-12-14T08:57:47Z shka: good morning lispers :)
2014-12-14T08:57:58Z stassats: what exactly is "Argument Precedence Order:"?
2014-12-14T08:57:59Z beach: Hello shka.
2014-12-14T08:58:19Z shka: beach: hello, there
2014-12-14T08:58:35Z beach: stassats: The order in which arguments are tested.
2014-12-14T08:58:47Z shka: beach: is there any metamodular rss feed?
2014-12-14T08:58:48Z stassats: why is it reversed in documentation/
2014-12-14T08:58:49Z stassats: ?
2014-12-14T08:58:56Z beach: shka: No.
2014-12-14T08:59:06Z shka: :(
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2014-12-14T09:00:16Z beach: stassats: Beats me.
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2014-12-14T09:00:36Z shka: beach: i like your articles
2014-12-14T09:00:39Z shka: very good writing
2014-12-14T09:00:42Z beach: shka: Thanks!
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2014-12-14T09:01:13Z beach: stassats: The order might influence which method is more specific when there are several applicable methods.  It probably has to do with that.
2014-12-14T09:01:33Z beach: ... rather than performance, which I don't think is important for DOCUMENTATION.
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2014-12-14T09:01:49Z stassats: why not reverse the arguments?
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2014-12-14T09:02:19Z beach: "For historical reasons" is the only explanation I can think of.
2014-12-14T09:02:21Z stassats: the whole :argument-precedence-order seems like an unnecessarily complication
2014-12-14T09:04:32Z beach: Actually, I should say that differently.  It is not necessarily the order in which arguments are tested at runtime.  It is the order used to determine the order of applicable methods in an effective method when there are several applicable methods.
2014-12-14T09:04:59Z beach: In SICL CLOS, I still test the arguments from left to right.
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2014-12-14T09:06:03Z stassats: so, there's a bug in ccl
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2014-12-14T09:06:19Z stassats: and ecl
2014-12-14T09:06:19Z beach: What's the bug?
2014-12-14T09:06:29Z stassats: in documentation's order
2014-12-14T09:06:33Z stassats: and abcl
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2014-12-14T09:06:39Z beach: Wow!
2014-12-14T09:07:15Z beach: did you just do (generic-function-argument-precedence-order #'documentation)?
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2014-12-14T09:07:40Z stassats: no, defined two methods
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2014-12-14T09:08:27Z stassats: and allegro
2014-12-14T09:08:33Z stassats: clisp, sbcl and lispworks get it right
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2014-12-14T09:12:43Z |3b|: stassats: was 2009 lisppaste run on something that didn't care as much about extra arguments, or was it just running old code that didn't match cvs?
2014-12-14T09:13:15Z stassats: old lisppaste ran on araneida
2014-12-14T09:13:54Z |3b|: i mean lisp implementation
2014-12-14T09:14:22Z stassats: i'm not sure what you're asking
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2014-12-14T09:16:46Z |3b|: at some point, a call was added to (encode-for-pre ... :with-line-numbers), but encode-for-pre doesn't seem to have ever accepted keyword arguments unless there is some other version floating around that didn't make it into html-encode
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2014-12-14T09:17:18Z |3b|: i guess probably the latter, now that i look at logs more closely
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2014-12-14T10:43:37Z stassats: |3b|: try nw
2014-12-14T10:43:39Z stassats: now
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2014-12-14T10:44:54Z |3b|: stassats: lisppaste formatting you mean? seems to be working
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2014-12-14T10:45:11Z stassats: do you have anything else to try?
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2014-12-14T10:46:25Z |3b| would like nicer line numbering that doesn't break copying, but doubt i'll get to that any time soon
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2014-12-14T10:46:34Z |3b|: don't know of anything else broken if that's what you mean
2014-12-14T10:46:57Z stassats: i haven't looked at the patches, just skimmed, merged and ran (load "web-server.lisp")
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2014-12-14T12:07:30Z shka: does dlist-push for end has constant complexity?
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2014-12-14T12:12:52Z Grue`: should be
2014-12-14T12:13:36Z pnpuff: Hello everybody![DPONG :adams.freenode.net
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2014-12-14T13:30:30Z Hi-Angel: As I see, there's no way to just set a breakpoint in a line, right?
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2014-12-14T13:36:01Z Grue`: Hi-Angel: put (break) into your code
2014-12-14T13:36:20Z Hi-Angel: Ah! I see
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2014-12-14T14:01:02Z nyef: G'morning all.
2014-12-14T14:01:19Z Shinmera: Good afternoon.
2014-12-14T14:01:24Z Hi-Angel: Hey nyef !
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2014-12-14T14:13:24Z PaleFire: Good night... ...
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2014-12-14T15:40:11Z drmeister: Hey nyef.
2014-12-14T15:40:31Z drmeister: What's the point of the *slime repl XXX* in emacs/slime?
2014-12-14T15:40:47Z drmeister: I thought you send forms from other buffers.
2014-12-14T15:41:05Z drmeister: That's a general question.
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2014-12-14T15:42:17Z drmeister: I just got slime to work somewhat with Clasp last night and I'm starting to explore it a little more.
2014-12-14T15:43:56Z nyef: You can connect to multiple backends, either at once or as an option at startup, or simultaneously, I forget which.
2014-12-14T15:44:25Z nyef: And the REPL window, obviously, provides a REPL. (-:
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2014-12-14T15:46:36Z drmeister: Ok, so the REPL window is a REPL and you can send forms from buffers. Got it.
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2014-12-14T16:02:50Z loke: drmeister:
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2014-12-14T16:43:37Z drmeister: loke:
2014-12-14T16:45:17Z drmeister: loke: What's up?
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2014-12-14T17:24:05Z Hi-Angel: If I write to interpretator e.g. «#\ », it would answer me «#\Space». Is there a way to save such a human-readable representation to a string?
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2014-12-14T17:26:35Z mood: Hi-Angel: char-name maybe? (char-name #\ ) -> "Space"
2014-12-14T17:27:04Z Hi-Angel: mood, thank you very much, that is it!
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2014-12-14T18:03:11Z Hi-Angel: Oh, sad, a creators of XCompose file probably had another symbol names in mind than the ones I get by «(char-name)». I had a hope to write a script to localize it for a particular language 😄
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2014-12-14T18:06:52Z Bike: xcompose probably uses keysyms rather than unicode names.
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2014-12-14T18:08:21Z Hi-Angel: Hm… I see…
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2014-12-14T18:16:32Z Fare: Hi-Angel: writing an interpretator is easy. Try writing an interpretatatatatator instead.
2014-12-14T18:17:18Z Hi-Angel: Fare, «interpretatatatatator» 😝
2014-12-14T18:17:30Z Fare: or an interpotato.
2014-12-14T18:17:48Z oleo: potinter
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2014-12-14T18:18:20Z oleo: pilecomper
2014-12-14T18:18:25Z oleo: lol
2014-12-14T18:18:33Z Fare is writing kind of a JIT for python convention calls
2014-12-14T18:18:53Z Fare: computer-piles
2014-12-14T18:24:51Z oleo: mine sound like curse words tho...
2014-12-14T18:24:52Z oleo: hahahaha
2014-12-14T18:25:13Z oleo: s/curse/cuss/
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2014-12-14T19:04:01Z drmeister: Hi Fare!  ASDF is working well on Clasp.
2014-12-14T19:04:20Z drmeister: I'm just working on SLIME.
2014-12-14T19:04:49Z Fare: drmeister, congrats!
2014-12-14T19:04:56Z Fare: any patch necessary?
2014-12-14T19:05:08Z Fare: please send to the maintainer (not me anymore)
2014-12-14T19:05:38Z drmeister: Yeah, some patches.
2014-12-14T19:06:00Z Fare: please make sure it still works on ecl and sbcl
2014-12-14T19:06:22Z Fare: (most likely victims of such a patch)
2014-12-14T19:11:03Z Fare: Also, how's your speed gap going?
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2014-12-14T19:41:21Z drmeister: Sorry - got pulled away.
2014-12-14T19:42:30Z drmeister: The speed gap problem is a medium term project that will be solved by incorporating cleavir.  I've been improving things in clasp to prepare to incorporate cleavir while beach has been improving cleavir.
2014-12-14T19:42:50Z drmeister: At some point soon (this week?) I'll start integrating cleavir into clasp.
2014-12-14T19:43:49Z drmeister: Cleavir required ASDF and my sanity requires SLIME (and SLIME requires ASDF) - so I've been working on those two.
2014-12-14T19:43:59Z nyef: Ooh. Is cleaver at the point of generating actual machine code yet?
2014-12-14T19:44:41Z drmeister: nyef: I don't know on beach's end - but pretty soon on my end.
2014-12-14T19:44:49Z nyef: Very nice.
2014-12-14T19:45:40Z drmeister: Although, who knows really.    http://www.failepicfail.com/facebookview.php?id=166
2014-12-14T19:48:12Z nyef: I'd imagine that fixing any cleavir/clasp mismatch would be easier than fixing THAT. d-:
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2014-12-14T19:50:19Z drmeister: Nothing a few sheets of plywood couldn't fix.
2014-12-14T19:50:30Z nyef: Hah!
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2014-12-14T19:58:15Z Hi-Angel: I don't understand: isn't the «(setq a '(1 2 3)) (print a)» and the «(let (a '(1 2 3)) (print a))» should do the same action?
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2014-12-14T19:59:56Z ejbs: Hi-Angel: setq sets, let binds.
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2014-12-14T20:01:46Z nyef: The effects of SETQ will persist into the future, the effects of LET only last for the duration of its body.
2014-12-14T20:01:50Z Hi-Angel: ejbs, okay, and in the example it binds «a» to the list «(1 2 3)», right? Why then it tries to evaluate the «(1 2 3)» despite the fact it is quoted? So I getting an error «1 is not a function name»
2014-12-14T20:02:50Z ejbs: Hi-Angel: That doesn't happen to me, what example?
2014-12-14T20:03:19Z Hi-Angel: E.g. just «(let (a '(1 2 3))»
2014-12-14T20:03:30Z ejbs: A
2014-12-14T20:03:37Z ejbs: There's a syntax error that I missed
2014-12-14T20:03:45Z ejbs: (let ((a '(1 2 3))))
2014-12-14T20:04:16Z ejbs: So you surround every variable + value with parens. (let ( (a 1) (b 2) ))
2014-12-14T20:04:33Z theseb: so SLIME is ONLY really usable with COMMON Lisp?
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2014-12-14T20:04:38Z theseb: not any other flavor?
2014-12-14T20:04:50Z Hi-Angel: ejbs, thank you very much!
2014-12-14T20:05:14Z wasamasa: wrong
2014-12-14T20:05:25Z wasamasa: it contains contrib modules for other languages
2014-12-14T20:05:38Z wasamasa: heck, clojure used to use slime only
2014-12-14T20:05:50Z wasamasa: until they invented their own brand of it
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2014-12-14T20:06:07Z theseb: wasamasa: so schemers and racket-ers use slime or is it tied pretty tightly to CL?
2014-12-14T20:06:25Z wasamasa: theseb: they can, but it appears to me not all of them choose to
2014-12-14T20:06:55Z wasamasa: theseb: there's an alternative package modeled after it for them that works with a few scheme dialects and less good ones for the rest
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2014-12-14T20:11:02Z theseb: wasamasa: ah
2014-12-14T20:11:04Z theseb: thanks
2014-12-14T20:11:11Z theseb: luckily i'm gravitating towards CL
2014-12-14T20:11:44Z wasamasa: lucky you
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2014-12-14T21:11:22Z sol__: hi, does anyone has exprience with translating BNF like definition of a protocol into lisp code? looking for a tutorial/example to look att
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2014-12-14T21:23:59Z Xach: sol__: there's a nice library by dim to do it automatically
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2014-12-14T21:24:20Z sol__: Xach, what's the library?
2014-12-14T21:24:36Z Xach: https://github.com/dimitri/cl-abnf
2014-12-14T21:25:35Z Xach: you can paste abnf and it writes the parser for you. handy.
2014-12-14T21:25:36Z dim: thx ;-) any feedback welcome, github issues with or without pull requests accepted of course
2014-12-14T21:25:57Z dim: it generates capturing regexp for cl-ppcre
2014-12-14T21:26:01Z oleo: pretinter you!
2014-12-14T21:26:03Z oleo: lol
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2014-12-14T21:29:55Z abbe: Hi, I'm reading this paper "The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Common Lisp Packages", and there is this definition of "intern" function which seems to contradict what author has mentioned before, that "intern" function does not import symbol. I'm wonder if I'm misinterpreting, or it should be in errata.
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2014-12-14T21:30:58Z nyef: clhs intern
2014-12-14T21:30:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm
2014-12-14T21:31:14Z abbe: (defun intern (name) (or (find-symbol name) (let ((s (make-symbol name))) (import s) s))) <<< definition as mentioned in paper
2014-12-14T21:31:37Z abbe: nyef: I've that opened in my browser already, but I'm just trying to make sense of all of it
2014-12-14T21:32:03Z kristof: abbe: What's the sentence in question?
2014-12-14T21:32:38Z nyef: Looks about right, modulo the optional package designator.
2014-12-14T21:32:54Z abbe: kristof: "There are a few more useful functions that we can go ahead and mention at this point. SYMBOL-NAME returns the name of a symbol as a string. FIND-SYMBOL takes a string and tells you if there is a symbol with that name already interned. And, finally, INTERN, which can be defined as follows:"
2014-12-14T21:33:12Z Xach: abbe: it does import the symbol.
2014-12-14T21:33:16Z kristof: abbe: Where does it say that intern does not import?
2014-12-14T21:34:02Z abbe: kristof: this is the where author mentions "There is a Lisp function called INTERN, which you might expect to add a symbol to a package, but it doesn’t. That function is performed by a function called IMPORT."
2014-12-14T21:34:38Z kristof: abbe: All that means is that INTERN itself doesn't add the symbol, it does so by using the function IMPORT.
2014-12-14T21:34:42Z Xach: abbe: that is a point where the snarky attitude of the paper inhibits understanding.
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2014-12-14T21:35:14Z kristof: abbe: But I would disagree with him on that point, since by calling IMPORT, it ends up adding the symbol. :P
2014-12-14T21:35:31Z nyef: Right, given a symbol to begin with, INTERN is the wrong function to use.
2014-12-14T21:35:57Z abbe: So, I'm testing this in SLIME, and getting the same results as author mentioned.
2014-12-14T21:36:11Z abbe: so (intern "FOO") returns |FOO|
2014-12-14T21:37:00Z abbe: and (equal (intern "FOO") 'FOO) => nil
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2014-12-14T21:37:35Z ejbs: (eq (intern "FOO") 'foo) => T (same for equal) for me
2014-12-14T21:37:36Z abbe: so it looks like INTERN does not IMPORT. ftr, I'm using CCL
2014-12-14T21:37:45Z ejbs: And I'm using SBCL
2014-12-14T21:37:48Z abbe: hmm
2014-12-14T21:38:00Z Xach: abbe: you have modified the default settings.
2014-12-14T21:38:15Z Xach: abbe: what do you get from (symbol-name 'foo)? The default settings yield "FOO"
2014-12-14T21:38:41Z abbe: "FOO"
2014-12-14T21:39:09Z abbe: that's strange, I started a fresh 'ccl' instance and there it returns true
2014-12-14T21:39:28Z abbe: I'm in the CL-USER package
2014-12-14T21:39:31Z Xach: abbe: when you get |FOO|, that usually means that *print-case* is :downcase
2014-12-14T21:39:38Z ejbs: Isn't (import 'foo) nonsensical anyway since 'foo interns the symbol into *package* anyway?
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2014-12-14T21:40:07Z Xach: ejbs: not necessarily. it could be inherited.
2014-12-14T21:40:28Z Fare: abbe: using "modern" mode?
2014-12-14T21:40:44Z Fare: Join us and use "postmodern" mode, same as traditional mode.
2014-12-14T21:41:00Z abbe: Fare: not sure.
2014-12-14T21:41:19Z ejbs: Xach: Hm, what do you mean? Do you have an example?
2014-12-14T21:41:24Z Fare: abbe: (uiop:implementation-identifier)
2014-12-14T21:41:24Z abbe: C-u - M-x slime RET ccl RET
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2014-12-14T21:41:43Z Xach: ejbs: I don't think you'd normally do that, but it *does* have an effect if you e.g. unuse-package later.
2014-12-14T21:41:46Z abbe: "ccl-1.10-f96-bsd-x64"
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2014-12-14T21:42:42Z Xach: ejbs: (use-package "ALEXANDRIA") (import 'iota) (unuse-package "ALEXANDRIA")
2014-12-14T21:42:53Z Fare: abbe: did you do anything to tweak the *print-case* and/or readtable-case ?
2014-12-14T21:42:54Z abbe: so, I don't understand what did I modify to get a different result than what I get in a fresh ccl instance. Also thanks for replies so far. I really appreciate it.
2014-12-14T21:43:14Z abbe: nop, I didn't do anything explicitly
2014-12-14T21:43:18Z Xach: ejbs: after that (eq 'iota 'alexandria:iota) but e.g. (eq 'doplist 'alexandria:doplist) is false
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2014-12-14T21:44:00Z Fare: and/or is *package* different when you intern and when you compare?
2014-12-14T21:44:38Z Fare: or rather, intern at runtime, and read at compile-time
2014-12-14T21:45:45Z abbe: I think I understood now. Makes sense to me, the case is not upper-case in stringified symbol name, and the quoted symbol-name. Since I'm running multiple X screens and copy-paste is broken atm, I'm typing text here.
2014-12-14T21:46:04Z abbe: Sorry!
2014-12-14T21:46:20Z abbe: Thanks again for the replies
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2014-12-14T21:47:05Z Xach somewhat recently learned that EXPORT will do an IMPORT first if necessary
2014-12-14T21:47:06Z abbe: I was trying this in SLIME: (equal (intern "foo") 'foo)
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2014-12-14T21:49:03Z Xach: abbe: that works, under some settings. but not the default.
2014-12-14T21:49:51Z ejbs: Xach: Ah, alright. That messed up how I think about symbols a bit :)!
2014-12-14T21:50:00Z ejbs: Time to sleep, good night everyone
2014-12-14T21:50:01Z abbe: okay, so I always assumed Lisp is case-insensitive, I guess it's like Microsoft filesystems mounted on UNIX
2014-12-14T21:51:29Z dandersen: abbe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/23_ab.htm
2014-12-14T21:52:21Z abbe: cool, that makes sense. Thanks!
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2014-12-14T21:52:46Z Xach: abbe: lisp is case-sensitive but case-folding by default
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2014-12-14T21:55:31Z abbe: okay, so basically when reader read "foo" it converted it into upper case as per '(readtable-case *readtable*) => :UPCASE', and whereas 'intern' created symbol from the input string, so it preserved case
2014-12-14T21:55:54Z Xach: abbe: yes.
2014-12-14T21:56:14Z abbe: Thank you. This is enlightening moment.
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2014-12-14T21:56:40Z Xach: you can influence the conversion in many ways. one way is by using | around the string, e.g. |Foo| will read witha symbol name of "Foo"
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2014-12-14T21:57:34Z abbe: okay
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2014-12-14T21:58:43Z ejbs: abbe: No, the reader does not convert to upper case when it reads "foo"
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2014-12-14T21:59:22Z Xach: I took that not to mean the literal string foo with quotes, but REPL input that looks like: foo
2014-12-14T21:59:50Z abbe: right, literal 'foo', not quoted one.
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2014-12-14T22:01:23Z abbe: also another question, i'm defining a function via defmacro which expands to a '(defun ....)'  form
2014-12-14T22:02:39Z abbe: so there I'm interning the function name, now caller could pass a lower-case input which results in a lowercase-name can't be invoked via usual syntax, if readtable-case is uppercase
2014-12-14T22:03:18Z Xach: abbe: you are creating a string to represent the name and interning it?
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2014-12-14T22:03:46Z Xach: abbe: that does require some care to construct properly. one way to avoid the issue is to make the syntax of the macro include a symbol that is the final name.
2014-12-14T22:04:00Z abbe: (defmacro defun-hello (name) `(defun ,(intern (concatenate 'string "hello-" name)) nil ,name))
2014-12-14T22:04:09Z Xach: e.g. defstruct constructs implied names, but defclass requires you to provide the name.
2014-12-14T22:04:14Z Xach: abbe: yes, that is a recipe for trouble.
2014-12-14T22:05:02Z abbe: so is there some usual/straightforward way, than me trying to reinvent wheel by adding checks for readtable case
2014-12-14T22:05:48Z abbe: hmmm
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2014-12-14T22:07:43Z Xach: abbe: one way is to take the symbol-name of a symbol instead of using a string directly
2014-12-14T22:08:27Z abbe: (defmacro defun-hello (name) `(defun ,(intern (symbol-name name)) nil ,(symbol-name name))) <<< so I wrote this, but this is not exactly I want, I like to prefix the generated symbol name with "hello-"
2014-12-14T22:08:49Z abbe: in current readtable-case
2014-12-14T22:09:05Z Xach: abbe: i mean something like (symbol-name (read-from-string "hello-")).
2014-12-14T22:09:20Z Xach: I vaguely remember someone either writing about this, or writing a library to make it easier, but my searches are coming up empty.
2014-12-14T22:09:24Z abbe: oh!
2014-12-14T22:10:59Z abbe: (defmacro defun-hello (name) `(defun ,(read-from-string (concatenate 'string "hello-" name)) nil ,name)) <<< works. perfect.
2014-12-14T22:11:06Z abbe: thanks!
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2014-12-14T22:17:53Z Grue`: I like (intern (concatenate 'string (symbol-name :hello-) base-name))
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2014-12-15T00:09:11Z pillton: jasom: The patch to the CFFI groveller has been applied. It can now grovel constants that are of a grovelled C type.
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2014-12-15T00:26:01Z akkad: lispworks really dislikes delivery of :clack
2014-12-15T00:26:43Z akkad ponders a refund of $1500
2014-12-15T00:27:00Z Bike: what is clack?
2014-12-15T00:27:42Z akkad: (ql:quickload :clack)
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2014-12-15T00:28:19Z kristof: Bike: was that serious?
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2014-12-15T00:28:34Z kristof: I thought people were going nuts over fukamachi-ware
2014-12-15T00:29:44Z akkad: it makes small bins, but damn it does not appear to have much on sbcl/ccl on speed :P
2014-12-15T00:30:14Z Bike: have you contacted lispworks support?
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2014-12-15T00:39:18Z Xach: akkad: that is not my experience. 64-bit lispworks is close to SBCL in performance for most things I use, and quite a bit faster than SBCL at compiling.
2014-12-15T00:40:04Z Xach: and it also comes with more bells & whistles.
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2014-12-15T00:46:20Z wglb: Xach: Do you use the LispWorks IDE?
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2014-12-15T01:11:15Z Xach: wglb: i more often use lispworks with slime, mostly because i'm more used to slime
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2014-12-15T01:29:19Z akkad: lispworks gtk gui segfaults for me
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2014-12-15T01:34:59Z pjb: drmeister: notice that slime-repl is now an optional module. You may not load it, so you may use slime without having a repl buffer.
2014-12-15T01:37:48Z Fare: drmeister, does SLIME require ASDF these days? For the longest time, it did it best not to
2014-12-15T01:38:17Z Fare: I tried to make it use it at some point, but I don't know that it's been successful — maybe in the new SLIME fork?
2014-12-15T01:38:34Z Fare looks at https://github.com/capitaomorte/sly
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2014-12-15T01:57:18Z drdo: god damn loop and the variable mutation
2014-12-15T01:58:03Z drdo: Is there a good reason why loop does that?
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2014-12-15T01:58:50Z drdo: e.g. (loop for s in situations ...), the s always the same variable being mutated, and one has to sprinkle (let ((s s)) ...) so that the closures don't all share the same final value
2014-12-15T02:00:43Z nyef: Probably something simple like the compilers being stupider at the time, and thus it was a speed hack, or that nobody thought of that use-case or something.
2014-12-15T02:00:45Z Zhivago: It's probably so that vendors don't need to think hard.
2014-12-15T02:02:12Z nyef: Ah, right. Always a consideration with the standard.
2014-12-15T02:03:10Z pjb: Notice that CLHS function says explicitely: In situations where a closure over the same set of bindings might be produced more than once, the various resulting closures might or might not be eq.
2014-12-15T02:03:57Z pjb: So even if loop used different variables, you could still get divergent results.
2014-12-15T02:04:27Z drdo: pjb: How so?
2014-12-15T02:05:00Z drdo: Oh i see what you mean, in this particular case it's one closure per iteration, so it would be fine if that were the case
2014-12-15T02:05:18Z pjb: Yes, that's happily what we usually want :-)
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2014-12-15T02:07:45Z drdo: Does anyone happen to know basic modal logic?
2014-12-15T02:08:16Z chu: I imagine Kripke does.
2014-12-15T02:09:10Z Bike: isn't he dead
2014-12-15T02:09:19Z Bike: he's not! how strange
2014-12-15T02:09:56Z drdo: Why is it strange?
2014-12-15T02:10:01Z drdo: Poor guy
2014-12-15T02:10:08Z chu: He's probably late 60s early 70s? He published his theorem in the 50s and he was still a teen, right?
2014-12-15T02:10:42Z drdo: 74 according to wikipedia
2014-12-15T02:11:43Z Fare: drdo: modal logic rocks
2014-12-15T02:11:50Z chu: It does.
2014-12-15T02:12:27Z drdo: Fare: I know i'm studying it, i was asking to see if someone could get me unstuck trying to prove something that is very probably easy to prove
2014-12-15T02:12:43Z Fare: there was this good book about epistemic logic by halpern
2014-12-15T02:13:12Z Fare: it started with this cool quote: Chuangtse and Hueitse had strolled onto the bridge over the Hao, when the former observed, ``See how the small fish are darting about! That is the happiness of the fish.'' ``You are not a fish yourself,'' said Hueitse. ``How can you know the happiness of the fish?'' ``And you not being I,'' retorted Chuangtse, ``how can you know that I do not know?'' — Chuangtse, circa 300 B.C.
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2014-12-15T02:13:23Z drdo: namely: How does one prove that for any generalized frame F and subframe G generated by g, x ∈ g, Th((G,x)) = Th((F,x))? I'm having trouble in particular proving if (G,x) ⊨ ¬φ then (F,x) ⊨ ¬φ.
2014-12-15T02:13:32Z Fare: drdo: do you know xmris ?
2014-12-15T02:13:38Z drdo: Fare: no
2014-12-15T02:14:03Z Fare: it was a clone of DrDo, written in C for X11 — but it's broken on recent X11 releases
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2014-12-15T02:14:34Z drdo: ok, i see the sourceforge page
2014-12-15T02:14:38Z Fare: drdo: I'm not fluent in whichever formalism you're using.
2014-12-15T02:15:19Z Fare: I'd pay some money to get xmris updated, with sound to match DrDo's (i.e. do re mi fa sol la si do as you eat the cherries)
2014-12-15T02:15:54Z drdo: Fare: a generalized frame is a kripke frame together with a boolean algebra over sets of worlds (with an additional operator for each modal operator)
2014-12-15T02:16:28Z chu: drdo: Not sure if this helps or anything, but: http://twb.rsise.anu.edu.au/propositional_modal_logic_kd45
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2014-12-15T02:17:00Z drdo: Fare: For instance if the algebra is the powerset algebra of the worlds, then it's precisely the same as kripke-frame
2014-12-15T02:17:31Z drdo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_frame
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2014-12-15T02:17:53Z Fare: doesn't kripke make more sense in intuitionnistic logic, at which point you don't have booleans and powerset algebras?
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2014-12-15T02:19:13Z drdo: "More" sense i don't know, i'm only studying classical modal logics
2014-12-15T02:19:24Z chu: Kripke frames are certainly modal logic.
2014-12-15T02:19:26Z drdo: But Kripke-frames are extremelly intuitive
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2014-12-15T02:20:02Z drdo: Fare: What about xmris btw? Is it somehow related to this?
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2014-12-15T02:20:13Z Fare: no, it's related to dr do
2014-12-15T02:20:17Z drdo: oh
2014-12-15T02:20:27Z Fare: but your name might not be related to it :-)
2014-12-15T02:20:33Z drdo: It's just my initials xD
2014-12-15T02:20:53Z Fare: some people might have implemented kripke semantics in Coq
2014-12-15T02:21:03Z drdo: I just implemented it in lisp
2014-12-15T02:21:12Z drdo: As a form of procrastination
2014-12-15T02:21:22Z Fare: there is worse procrastination to be had
2014-12-15T02:21:25Z chu: That's awesome.
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2014-12-15T02:26:36Z nyef sighs.
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2014-12-15T02:28:22Z nyef: I have just confirmed two things for myself: First, that minicom does something to my system that makes /dev/ttyACM0 (an ardiuno virtual serial port) behave differently such that my simple lisp program actually "works". And second, that I don't understand how the arduino reset mechanism works over the port.
2014-12-15T02:30:16Z nyef: Unfortunately, this means that I need to do more digging. /-:
2014-12-15T02:30:29Z Zhivago: nyef: Perhaps stty -a < /dev/ttyACM0 might tell you what it did.
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2014-12-15T02:31:21Z nyef: Only if I have a "before" report, which requires a reboot.
2014-12-15T02:31:37Z nyef: But good idea, I was sortof heading in that direction. Thanks.
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2014-12-15T03:02:57Z pjb: -
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2014-12-15T03:14:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-12-15T03:14:46Z beach: pjb: Thanks for the remarks.
2014-12-15T03:15:07Z beach: It is embarrassing that my initial recursive function was tail recursive.
2014-12-15T03:15:23Z beach: nyef: Good to see you back!
2014-12-15T03:16:04Z nyef: beach: Thanks. I finally remembered to start my IRC client again. (-:
2014-12-15T03:16:16Z beach: Oh! :)
2014-12-15T03:20:44Z nyef: I'm also finished focusing on my forth implementation for a while, so am spending some attention on things that use Lisp again.
2014-12-15T03:20:56Z nyef: How's cleavir coming?
2014-12-15T03:21:31Z beach: Fine.  But things are moving slowly.
2014-12-15T03:22:18Z beach: For some reason I don't seem to want to compute the optimal depth of the static runtime environment for nested functions. :)
2014-12-15T03:22:29Z beach: I guess because it's messy.
2014-12-15T03:23:05Z nyef: Is it a necessary computation, or just a nice-to-have?
2014-12-15T03:23:37Z beach: The latter.
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2014-12-15T03:23:58Z nyef: Mark it as a FIXME, move on, and come back to it later?
2014-12-15T03:24:06Z beach: Yeah, I know.
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2014-12-15T03:26:35Z beach: nyef:  http://paste.lisp.org/+33KU
2014-12-15T03:27:51Z nyef: Ah. Physenvanal. Fun.
2014-12-15T03:28:35Z nyef: What are you using as a basic approach here?
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2014-12-15T03:29:48Z beach: The algorithm is simple, but not linear.  It is stupid to worry about it, because the nesting depth is not going to very significant.  I'll dig up the blurb I wrote in a comment...
2014-12-15T03:31:23Z nyef: Should be proportional to something to do with the number of variables and the number of lambdas where each variable is visible, shouldn't it?
2014-12-15T03:31:48Z beach: Yeah.
2014-12-15T03:32:03Z beach: http://metamodular.com/to-delete.lisp
2014-12-15T03:32:18Z beach: This is the comment in the file in Cleavir that will contain the implementation.
2014-12-15T03:33:09Z beach: The key definition is that of DROP toward the end.
2014-12-15T03:35:59Z beach: I think I need to create some kind of tree representation as a data structure of the nested functions.  It is not hard, but for some reason I don't want to.
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2014-12-15T03:37:12Z nyef: I'm still not seeing the point of this.
2014-12-15T03:37:25Z beach: Not in the paste either?
2014-12-15T03:37:54Z nyef: It probably hinges on your design for closure environments.
2014-12-15T03:38:03Z nyef: And related planned optimizations.
2014-12-15T03:38:24Z beach: It depends on the static runtime environment being organized in layers or levels.
2014-12-15T03:38:53Z nyef: Is "the static runtime environment" a stack frame, or something else?
2014-12-15T03:39:14Z beach: No.
2014-12-15T03:39:28Z beach: It contains the variables that can not be allocated on the stack.
2014-12-15T03:39:38Z beach: Variables with indefinite extent.
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2014-12-15T03:39:47Z nyef: So, the heap-allocated part of a closure?
2014-12-15T03:40:16Z beach: Pretty much.
2014-12-15T03:40:25Z beach: I should not have said indefinite extent.
2014-12-15T03:41:11Z beach: Because it is also valid for stack-allocated environment of type "static link" when variables have dynamic extent, but they are used by a nested function that is passed as argument to some call.
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2014-12-15T03:41:44Z nyef: The collection of closed-over variables, then?
2014-12-15T03:41:55Z beach: Right.
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2014-12-15T03:42:32Z beach: I imagine that collection being organized in "layers" or "levels".
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2014-12-15T03:43:51Z nyef: And you're trying to keep away from allocating a separate value cell for each mutable variable by allocating enough for the variables created by each closure in a chain at a time, and keeping a vector or linked list of them as the main "closure environment"?
2014-12-15T03:44:55Z beach: Yes, except the "chain" would be a vector.
2014-12-15T03:45:07Z beach: That's what I call a "layer".
2014-12-15T03:45:16Z nyef: No, "chain" is abstract control flow, not a vector.
2014-12-15T03:45:21Z beach: Oh, sorry.
2014-12-15T03:45:38Z beach: Yes, then OK.  I think what you are saying is right.
2014-12-15T03:46:22Z beach: So, in the paste, semantically, on line 1, a layer is created that contains x1, on line 3, a layer is crated that contains x2 on top of the first layer.
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2014-12-15T03:47:24Z beach: So, again semantically, the closures created by the lambdas on lines 5, 6, and 7 have these two layers in them.
2014-12-15T03:47:35Z nyef: Lines 5 and 7 only need to include the layer for x2, and line 6 only needs to include the layer for x1?
2014-12-15T03:47:45Z beach: Exactly.
2014-12-15T03:48:02Z |3b|: would it be hard to do the indirection per cell instead of per layer?
2014-12-15T03:48:30Z beach: |3b|: Not sure what you mean.
2014-12-15T03:48:38Z |3b|: where a closure has a set of bindings it allocates and a set that are pointers elsewhere
2014-12-15T03:49:26Z |3b|: i think you should be able to tell which are which are which at compile time, so access to the latter would just add an extra indirection, and no search in either case
2014-12-15T03:49:28Z beach: |3b|: Sorry, I must not be quite awake yet.  I still don't understand.
2014-12-15T03:49:29Z nyef: ... I'm still failing to see how this concept of "drop" comes in. Each lambda only needs to know about the layers that contain the variables that it closed over, there's no need to maintain that as a STACK.
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2014-12-15T03:50:01Z beach: |3b|: There is no search at runtime.  It is all done at compile time.
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2014-12-15T03:50:24Z nyef: (And, of course, that relation is transitive, if a closure creates a closure that refers to a layer then the outer closure must also refer to the layer.)
2014-12-15T03:50:32Z beach: Right.
2014-12-15T03:50:50Z |3b|: beach: or not search, but walking a linked list... whatever you try to optimize out
2014-12-15T03:51:05Z beach: |3b|: Yes, OK, I see.
2014-12-15T03:51:47Z |3b|: though i guess it still needs to reference the outer set of bindings for GC purposes, so maybe it doesn't help
2014-12-15T03:51:58Z beach: So each function would have its own set of bindings, organized in whatever way it sees fit, and if they are shared with some other function, they have an indirection so that the binding itself is first-class?
2014-12-15T03:52:32Z beach: That would work, but It would be much slower to create a closure then.
2014-12-15T03:52:33Z nyef: That's about it, only you were coalescing all of the bindings for a particular function into a single object.
2014-12-15T03:52:42Z beach: I get it now.
2014-12-15T03:53:04Z nyef: But either way, the concept of "drop" seems unnecessary.
2014-12-15T03:53:19Z beach: If you do it that way, yes.
2014-12-15T03:53:35Z beach: If you maintain a list of layers, it is important, sort of.
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2014-12-15T03:54:46Z nyef: It seems to me that you end up either retaining more data than you really need or you start getting bogged down in maintaining multiple copies of the list.
2014-12-15T03:55:20Z beach: Yes, I see.
2014-12-15T03:55:32Z beach: I probably need to rethink that strategy.
2014-12-15T03:55:59Z nyef: f1 -> f2 -> f3, where f3 creates f4 and f5 that close over f1, f3 and f2, f3 respectively. Now you're snapping links off of the tail and middle of the chain or you're retaining more data than you want.
2014-12-15T03:56:12Z beach: Yes, I understand.
2014-12-15T03:56:58Z beach: For variables with dynamic extent it doesn't matter, but for those with indefinite extent it definitely does.
2014-12-15T03:57:34Z nyef: d-x variables can be stack allocated anyway. You just need to use a stack pointer for the reference to that part of that layer.
2014-12-15T03:57:57Z beach: Right.  The famous "static link" in Algol-like languages.
2014-12-15T03:58:44Z nyef: I'm suddenly reminded that "thunk is the past tense of think at three in the morning."
2014-12-15T03:59:03Z beach: Yeah, the compiler already thunk about it.
2014-12-15T04:00:28Z beach: Good.  Now I don't have to implement that algorithm.  Maybe this was the reason I didn't really want to in the first place. :)
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2014-12-15T04:02:31Z nyef: Knowing on some level that there was a better approach?
2014-12-15T04:02:52Z beach: That's what I was hinting, yes.  But I don't really believe it.
2014-12-15T04:03:20Z nyef: Knowing on some level that it was ugly, and trying to find a better approach?
2014-12-15T04:03:37Z beach: At least the first part of it.
2014-12-15T04:04:25Z beach: Not that it matters anymore.  I just have to do it differently.
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2014-12-15T04:16:09Z drmeister: Hey beach.
2014-12-15T04:16:41Z drmeister: Did you have a chance yet to take a look at L.I.S.P?
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2014-12-15T04:17:51Z drmeister: Section 6.1.9  "Variations on Environments"  there is a technique called the "display" technique where all lexical variable access is constant time.
2014-12-15T04:18:50Z nyef: ... Ugh. Something interesting to look up, and my copy is unavailable to me for about another week. /-:
2014-12-15T04:20:57Z drmeister: Every environment level you go down, you tack on another ancestor pointer. Then in your accesses (ancestor, index) the ancestor us used to index into the ancestor pointer array and the index indexes into the ancestors vector.
2014-12-15T04:22:53Z nyef: Except that you have to be copying the overall vector of levels each time you create a new closure, and then you only need to retain references to the ancestors that contain variables that are visible from the closure function.
2014-12-15T04:23:39Z nyef: And "constant time" is almost certainly assuming some untrue things about the underlying memory model. (-:
2014-12-15T04:23:56Z Zhivago: Yes, but that applies to pretty much everything, these days.
2014-12-15T04:24:56Z Zhivago: They still gloss over cache i/o as a bottleneck in most places.
2014-12-15T04:25:39Z nyef: Heh. And there are so many fun games that can be played with properly-gimmicked caches, too.
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2014-12-15T04:27:04Z drmeister: It must still be faster than following a chain of N activation-frames.
2014-12-15T04:27:12Z nyef: (IIRC, some/most/all Alpha processors start up by streaming a full CPU state in from a serial ROM, including the contents of the on-chip caches, allowing them to execute a startup program that never needs to exist in main RAM.)
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2014-12-15T04:35:09Z Zhivago: drmeister: Sure, but why follow activation chains for lexical variables, in the first place?
2014-12-15T04:36:41Z beach: drmeister: Yes, I know about displays.  Apparently most implementations of displays are incorrect.
2014-12-15T04:36:54Z drmeister: There is another method described where you rebuild the closure each level you go down. You could do that.  Or were you thinking about something else?
2014-12-15T04:37:21Z drmeister: beach: Really?  How?   It seems pretty straightforward.
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2014-12-15T04:38:15Z beach: I don't remember the details.  I read about it decades ago.
2014-12-15T04:38:58Z nyef: Incorrect as in "show incorrect behavior" or incorrect as in "not as efficient as claimed"?
2014-12-15T04:39:04Z Zhivago: If you can do escape analysis, why not either refer directly to the stack location, or indirect into a heap location?
2014-12-15T04:39:09Z beach: nyef: The former.
2014-12-15T04:39:13Z nyef: Ouch.
2014-12-15T04:39:30Z nyef: Zhivago: The question is representation for tracking the heap locations.
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2014-12-15T04:39:52Z Zhivago: Ah, at closure construction time, ok.
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2014-12-15T04:41:52Z Fare: optimizing the right level of chain following vs copying can be an interesting problem
2014-12-15T04:42:17Z beach: Indeed.
2014-12-15T04:42:24Z Zhivago: Although, there too, if you have analysis, the enclosing closure should know directly where its captured variables are, including those required by the sub-closure.
2014-12-15T04:43:23Z Fare: also, when some variables are mutable, you can copy pointers to a cell, but cannot duplicate the cell
2014-12-15T04:43:35Z Fare: so first you need some mutation / escape analysis
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2014-12-15T04:45:38Z Zhivago: Yeah, so I wonder if all of that is just due to trying to avoid to do compile-time analysis.
2014-12-15T04:46:45Z beach: drmeister: What nyef and |3b| taught me today is important and might concern you.  If you have (lambda (x1 x2) (ff (lambda () .. x1 ..)) (gg (lambda () .. x2 ..))), where do you allocate x1 and x2 in Clasp?
2014-12-15T04:47:48Z beach: drmeister: ... and how do you create the closures passed to FF and GG?
2014-12-15T04:47:48Z drmeister: Currently in a two element activation-frame on the heap.
2014-12-15T04:48:23Z beach: You include that activation frame in the closures?
2014-12-15T04:48:47Z nyef: drmeister: How does that work with nested closures in the picture, and with non-closed-over variables in the mix?
2014-12-15T04:49:07Z drmeister: Yes, I include the activation frame in the closures.
2014-12-15T04:49:12Z drmeister: Everything is closed over.
2014-12-15T04:49:12Z beach: Then you might retain data in dead variables.
2014-12-15T04:49:41Z drmeister: Sure
2014-12-15T04:50:14Z beach: OK.  As long as you are aware...
2014-12-15T04:50:21Z drmeister: I'm painfully aware.
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2014-12-15T04:50:43Z drmeister: This is why I'm interested in Cleavir.
2014-12-15T04:50:55Z beach: Right.
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2014-12-15T04:55:54Z beach: OK, so in the most general case, closed-over variables can be mutated, so there must be some indirection.  Let's call it a "cell".  A function that is the "owner" of a closed-over variable creates a cell in a dynamic lexical variable.  Access to closed-over variables owned by others go through the static environment which is included in the closure and passed to the function by its caller.
2014-12-15T04:56:11Z beach: ... probably as a vector or something similar.
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2014-12-15T04:57:24Z beach: When a closure is created, the cells that are required by the closure are included in the closure in some order that is agreed upon between the code of the function in the closure and the function creating the closure.
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2014-12-15T04:58:11Z Zhivago: From memory, the traditional term was 'box' to differentiate it from general cells.
2014-12-15T04:58:24Z beach: "box" sounds fine.
2014-12-15T04:58:57Z beach: Though then there is confusion with boxing/unboxing.  Oh well.
2014-12-15T04:59:28Z nyef: I believe that SBCL calls them "value-cells".
2014-12-15T04:59:45Z beach: That's fine too.
2014-12-15T04:59:54Z nyef: And they're used for closures and for load-time-value.
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2014-12-15T05:00:46Z beach: Makes sense.
2014-12-15T05:02:02Z nyef: They also get used for something to do with lexical non-local exits, but I forget precisely what and also if it ends up being counted as a normal closure variable for analysis purposes.
2014-12-15T05:03:02Z pjb: -
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2014-12-15T05:05:02Z drmeister: That is all consistent with my understanding.
2014-12-15T05:05:09Z kristof: lexical nonlocal exits are terrifying
2014-12-15T05:05:17Z kristof: throwing a closure down a hole as an escape hatch? no thank you!
2014-12-15T05:05:50Z Zhivago: What makes it terrifying?
2014-12-15T05:06:43Z kristof: It's a very convoluted flow of control.
2014-12-15T05:07:05Z nyef: kristof: call/cc is terrifying. Lexical NLX is only slightly twisty.
2014-12-15T05:12:16Z Zhivago: Why is call/cc terrifying? :)
2014-12-15T05:12:53Z nyef: It's a very convoluted flow of control. (-:
2014-12-15T05:13:07Z drmeister: You have to copy the entire stack for call/cc don't you?
2014-12-15T05:13:22Z nyef: Depends on your implementation approach overall.
2014-12-15T05:13:30Z Zhivago: No, you just need to capture the free variables, as usual.
2014-12-15T05:14:00Z Zhivago: If you're using a CPS transform, then there's nothing special about it at all.
2014-12-15T05:14:17Z Zhivago: I guess doing call/cc without a CPS transform is where the complexity gets injected.
2014-12-15T05:14:34Z nyef: Plus on the thinking-about-use-cases side.
2014-12-15T05:14:56Z ggole: call/cc requires the whole stack in general since the continuation could return into it more than once.
2014-12-15T05:15:41Z nyef: As a control-flow construct, it's up there with computed COME-FROM on my list of things that I don't know how to reason about.
2014-12-15T05:15:54Z ggole: A lot of implementations seeks to make this easier by heap-allocating activation records - that makes a continuation very simple (pointer to an activation frame) and the GC takes care of keeping necessary parts alive.
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2014-12-15T05:27:16Z drmeister: I don't know how you make that fast (heap allocating activation records).  That's essentially what I do now.
2014-12-15T05:29:05Z ggole: With bump-pointer allocation, the alloc part should be pretty fast
2014-12-15T05:29:42Z ggole: Some implementations cache the pointer(s) in registers, making allocation just a few instructions.
2014-12-15T05:29:48Z nyef: There are also implementations that stack-allocate but only deallocate by treating the stack as a GC nursery.
2014-12-15T05:30:03Z nyef: Which is about the same approach.
2014-12-15T05:30:50Z drmeister: MPS uses bump-pointer allocation - the alloc part is fast - it's everything after that.
2014-12-15T05:33:01Z nyef: Mmm. I still remember my first serious lisp program. Allocation time? Fine. GC time? Fine. Type-checking and dispatch and using generic arithmetic for boxed word-length integers? Too slow to run.
2014-12-15T05:33:18Z ggole: Stacks have some support in the CPU, so you will lose a bit even if the GC does an excellent job
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2014-12-15T05:43:18Z nyef: Right, I have work to do tomorrow. Or, given that it's almost 1 AM, later today. Time for me to get some sleep.
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2014-12-15T06:41:35Z drmeister: I pushed changes to clasp's devel branch that add rudimentary SLIME support.
2014-12-15T06:42:03Z drmeister: You can evaluate forms but you can't compile functions yet.  I'm not sure why.
2014-12-15T06:42:31Z drmeister: The debugger comes up and I can see a backtrace but I haven't tracked the problem down yet.
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2014-12-15T07:36:09Z shifty778: insightful abuse on the following, please: (defmacro radians (d) (if (realp d) (/ d (/ 180 pi)) `(/ ,d #.(/ 180 pi))))
2014-12-15T07:37:00Z |3b|: trust your compiler and just inline it instead of using a macro
2014-12-15T07:37:09Z |3b|: then you can funcall/mapcar/etc it
2014-12-15T07:38:07Z |3b| would use , instead of #. for the 2nd (/ 180 pi) as well
2014-12-15T07:38:07Z loke: If you _really_ feel the need for this, use a compile macro instead of a normal macro
2014-12-15T07:38:19Z loke: that said, like 3b said, there should be no need to do it at all
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2014-12-15T07:40:14Z |3b|: that would miss a bunch of places a compiler could figure out anyway, so you'd still be relying on compiler for a lot of places
2014-12-15T07:40:43Z |3b|: for example constants, single use variables, constant expressions like (radians (+ 1 2)) etc
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2014-12-15T07:45:03Z cstacy: I have a simple ASDF question
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2014-12-15T07:46:12Z cstacy: I have a  ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d directory
2014-12-15T07:46:32Z cstacy: There is more than one file in there.  Say foo.conf and bar.conf
2014-12-15T07:46:41Z cstacy: which one will get used?
2014-12-15T07:47:51Z cstacy: I would like to tell ASDF to use one particular file in there (only).  I would call some ASDF function or set a variable or whatever to tell it this.
2014-12-15T07:48:03Z |3b|: *.conf.d/ usually load all in order
2014-12-15T07:48:04Z cstacy: Is this possible?  The ASDF manual is of course impenetrable.
2014-12-15T07:48:28Z cstacy: Hmmm. Is there a way to make it just use one of them?
2014-12-15T07:48:46Z |3b|: you want to keep multiple there and pick one at runtime?
2014-12-15T07:48:51Z cstacy: exactly
2014-12-15T07:49:08Z cstacy: different projects use different curated local repos
2014-12-15T07:49:16Z shifty778: thanks |3b|, loke.
2014-12-15T07:49:18Z |3b|: probably easier to use a different dir and load it directly (not sure how you would load it though)
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2014-12-15T07:50:49Z cstacy: I could always just do the old way and just set asdf:*central-registry* I guess
2014-12-15T07:50:51Z |3b|: looks like it only loads files that end in .conf, so renaming them may be another (ugly) option
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2014-12-15T07:54:22Z |3b|: looks like you can call asdf:initialize-source-registry with a pathname for a config file to load
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2014-12-15T07:55:35Z cstacy: I saw that function but the documentation sugested the only PARAMETER was not a oathname, but rather something else?
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2014-12-15T07:56:48Z |3b|: http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Configuration-API lists a few options for it including pathname
2014-12-15T07:57:54Z |3b|: or if the individual configurations are simple, you could just pass them directly to it
2014-12-15T07:58:13Z cstacy: I read that already. It is unclear what PARAMETER does.  I see no way to make it work there.
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2014-12-15T07:58:40Z cstacy: But I have not read the source code for ASDF.  I was hoping someone else already had.
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2014-12-15T08:00:45Z mrSpec: Hi guys
2014-12-15T08:01:12Z mrSpec: cstacy: in fact I have this working
2014-12-15T08:01:39Z cstacy: cool-o what did you do?
2014-12-15T08:01:41Z mrSpec: cstacy: I cal initialize-source-registry with plist as argument: (:source-registry (:tree #P"/foo/my-sources")  :inherit-configuration)
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2014-12-15T08:02:45Z cstacy: If I don’t need any of the “new” DSL features, is there an advantage to this over just setting *CENTRAL-REGISTRY* ?
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2014-12-15T08:03:26Z mrSpec: no idea, sorry
2014-12-15T08:04:27Z mrSpec: I start lispworks, then call wrapper around initialize-source-registry to choose the directory tree. works fine.
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2014-12-15T08:05:17Z cstacy: TY all very much for the hints!
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2014-12-15T08:56:53Z shka: good morning fellow lispers
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2014-12-15T09:00:25Z pjb: shifty778: multiplication is more efficient than division. `(* ,d #.(/ pi 180))
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2014-12-15T09:09:36Z shifty778: pjb: whoa, true that but might be taking the optimization a bit far!  However, now you've pointed it out, it has a certain poetry to it :-)
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2014-12-15T10:05:13Z adlai wants to write pprint-json, any good guide other than CLHS 22 and the original "XP" paper?
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2014-12-15T10:06:00Z adlai starts from the examples in 22.2.2 - http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_bb.htm
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2014-12-15T10:58:13Z Grue`: damn, I missed the modal logic guy. I happen to know a few things on that topic, and even a published paper :)
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2014-12-15T11:39:11Z Pete_R: Hello!
2014-12-15T11:39:43Z adlai: morning Pete_R
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2014-12-15T11:41:35Z Pete_R: Nice to see some response! :) I'm not used to the circe interface :)
2014-12-15T11:45:20Z adlai: haven't used that
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2014-12-15T11:46:12Z adlai: I assume you're using the emacs not the python?
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2014-12-15T11:48:21Z Pete_R: adlai, yes, emacs.
2014-12-15T11:49:22Z Pete_R: Each day passes I get more addicted to emacs :)
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2014-12-15T14:12:29Z dim: sol__: did you try cl-abnf?
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2014-12-15T14:26:43Z drmeister: SLIME source file positions - are they user defined or are they just numbers/file-position?   I wanted to track file-position, line-number and column
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2014-12-15T14:28:26Z splittist: drmeister: not to answer your question, but why both? Won't anything short of a terminal have the means to translate file position <-> line/column
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2014-12-15T14:29:57Z splittist: I mean 'anything more complex than a terminal', sorry.
2014-12-15T14:30:10Z splittist: (assuming it has the relevant file loaded)
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2014-12-15T14:30:23Z splittist: [and if you don't, why would you care?]
2014-12-15T14:30:35Z drmeister: Well, when I started writing Clasp I had no SLIME and so I track source location with source-file/line-numbers in SourcePosInfo records and backtraces have source-file/line-numbers.  Now I'm adding support for SLIME and it needs file-position.  So I added file-position to my SourcePosInfo records.
2014-12-15T14:31:09Z drmeister: Now it appears that SLIME doesn't support line-numbers - and so that information will become invalid and I will have to do work to keep them from confusing the programmer.
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2014-12-15T14:31:42Z splittist: drmeister: you need more vi users: they think in terms of lines (:
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2014-12-15T14:32:24Z drmeister: I used vi for 25 years before I switched to emacs four years ago.  I am vi users.
2014-12-15T14:33:46Z drmeister: The problem with file position <-> line/column is at that point, the file only exists within an emacs buffer.  So I can't do the translation.
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2014-12-15T14:34:59Z drmeister: (sigh)   I'll have to mark the lineno/column as invalid - I can use 0 as the invalid value.
2014-12-15T14:35:28Z sol__: dim, i didn't have much time yesterday for that but from the looks of it, it looks like the wrong tool for the job
2014-12-15T14:35:54Z dim: fair enough, what's the job here?
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2014-12-15T14:36:01Z sol__: i want to write a kafka client in CL, and your lib seems way too general purpose. just need a couple of binary structures which i can serialize/deserialize
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2014-12-15T14:36:41Z sol__: to define them i wanted to use something that understand BNF because of the way they are defined
2014-12-15T14:37:08Z sol__: to define in code*, the way they are defined in spec* :)
2014-12-15T14:37:13Z DeadTrickster: cl-store anyone?
2014-12-15T14:37:13Z dim: oh, yeah, the goal of cl-abnf was for users to be able to paste an ABNF syntax ruleset and then have their pick of what they want to serialize, so that pgloader would be able to listen for message (e.g. udp, syslog) and COPY them on the fly to a logs database
2014-12-15T14:37:26Z dim: so the goal of cl-abnf is to give ABNF to the end-user
2014-12-15T14:37:53Z dim: and you want to deal with ABNF as a developer, it's way different
2014-12-15T14:38:11Z dim: as in, you know the ABNF as code-writing time
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2014-12-15T14:39:41Z sol__: DeadTrickster, cl-store serializes CL objects while i need to serialize objects defined by the wire protocol... i need really tight control over what bits are placed where can't just say "serialize me a message object"
2014-12-15T14:40:02Z DeadTrickster: cl-store uses allocate-instance when restoring object as I understand it eliminates unnecessary initializations. Is it safe to replace allocate-instance with make-instance if I WANT initializations
2014-12-15T14:41:38Z DeadTrickster: well in fact I want them only for specific class because here we are tracking object changes, it's kind of orm but for mongodb
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2014-12-15T14:42:15Z DeadTrickster: sol__, are you the author of cl-store?
2014-12-15T14:43:25Z DeadTrickster: I'm ok with the way it works including its own binary format, it's stored as value in redis anyway
2014-12-15T14:45:37Z splittist didn't realise swank cached entire source files
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2014-12-15T14:49:42Z dim: there's cl-packet or packet wire or something too
2014-12-15T14:50:04Z dim: mm, "packet" in quicklisp
2014-12-15T14:50:27Z dim: https://github.com/fjames86/packet
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2014-12-15T15:09:04Z DeadTrickster: how to access signal in restart-case clause?
2014-12-15T15:10:21Z DeadTrickster: if restart invoked by user not invoke-restart
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2014-12-15T15:13:12Z loke_: DeadTrickster: You don't.
2014-12-15T15:13:21Z sol__: packet doesn't seem to have the notion of endianess. also - inheritance. so far userial and gigamonkeys practical CL book package for binary types look like a good fit
2014-12-15T15:13:25Z loke_: DeadTrickster: You should use HANDLER-BIND
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2014-12-15T15:23:01Z splittist: sol__: you've looked at http://quickdocs.org/binary-types/ ?
2014-12-15T15:23:31Z splittist: (== https://github.com/Ferada/binary-types)
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2014-12-15T15:48:36Z nyef: G'morning all.
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2014-12-15T15:49:19Z ack006: nyef: good evening (here) :-)
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2014-12-20T16:33:19Z names: setheus tkd yauz eak_ cross zbigniew tstc yeltzooo rotty_ sigjuice djinni` nitro_idiot ttm stokachu tomaw
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2014-12-20T18:25:02Z shka: good evening fellow lispers
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2014-12-20T18:26:53Z shka: is there anything better for understanding performance issues of the cl than reading ansi common lisp?
2014-12-20T18:27:07Z shka: maybe not issues
2014-12-20T18:27:48Z shka: just performance guidelines
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2014-12-20T18:31:44Z _death: shka: PAIP has a chapter about performance.. also check out your implementation's manual
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2014-12-20T18:32:15Z shka: _death: paip is norvig book, right?
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2014-12-20T18:32:36Z _death: yes
2014-12-20T18:32:57Z shka: thanks
2014-12-20T18:33:09Z shka: i seen this book but had no time to read trough it
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2014-12-20T18:34:22Z _death: also https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node103.html#SECTION001300000000000000000 may be helpful
2014-12-20T18:35:45Z shka: _death: do you think i should start from ansi common lisp or paip?
2014-12-20T18:36:25Z nyef: Norvig before Graham. Every time.
2014-12-20T18:36:32Z nyef: minion: Graham crackers?
2014-12-20T18:36:33Z minion: Graham crackers: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html
2014-12-20T18:36:34Z _death: I myself started with ANSI Common Lisp.. but my favourite programming book is PAIP
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2014-12-20T18:36:54Z _death: ACL is better as an introduction in my opinion
2014-12-20T18:36:59Z shka: _death: favourite as all times favourite?
2014-12-20T18:37:03Z _death: yes
2014-12-20T18:37:09Z shka: or just lisp?
2014-12-20T18:37:19Z _death: no, programming in general
2014-12-20T18:38:07Z shka: well that's say quite a lot
2014-12-20T18:38:13Z shka: :)
2014-12-20T18:38:31Z _death: I've read it a bunch of times and still I'll read it again :)
2014-12-20T18:38:52Z shka: silly me, i just read the gps part
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2014-12-20T18:39:40Z _death: think the natural language parsing chapters are the hardest
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2014-12-20T18:41:09Z shka: i probably should get back to it
2014-12-20T18:41:13Z shka: really
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2014-12-20T18:41:32Z shka: and norvig is cool guy
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2014-12-20T18:42:47Z _death: yep.. AIMA is also cool
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2014-12-20T18:43:07Z shka: know this book
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2014-12-20T18:43:23Z shka: reading on my todo
2014-12-20T18:43:28Z shka: but i would rather read paip
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2014-12-20T19:21:31Z theseb: does "primitive" mean can't/isn't implemented in lisp itself?
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2014-12-20T19:22:37Z theseb: the reason i ask is there appears to be 2 classes of primitives...1. those with normal evaluation rules (e.g. atom, first, rest) and 2. special forms (quote, if)
2014-12-20T19:22:49Z theseb: that have nonstandard eval rules
2014-12-20T19:22:50Z theseb: right?
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2014-12-20T19:24:17Z Hexstream: theseb: Reading http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_abab.htm would be a good start.
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2014-12-20T19:25:44Z _death: theseb: if you consider ATOM/FIRST/REST "primitives" then it obviously doesn't mean it can't be implemented in lisp
2014-12-20T19:26:25Z Shinmera: The only mention of "primitive" is in issues, so what exactly it means is anyone's guess.
2014-12-20T19:26:50Z _death: also, if it can be implemented at all, it can be implemented in Lisp
2014-12-20T19:26:51Z theseb: _death: hmm....what i meant was to bootstrap a lisp implementation you need a few functions that aren't defined in lisp..sort of like the undefined terms in geometry
2014-12-20T19:27:08Z theseb: _death: this is from Paul Graham's Roots Of Lisp paper on CL
2014-12-20T19:27:29Z _death: theseb: maybe you'll be interested in http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html as well
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2014-12-20T19:29:41Z theseb: _death: yea...same idea..building up other components in terms of core components...but thanks all...so basically "primitives" isn't a common standardized term in lisp land..ok i can live with that
2014-12-20T19:29:48Z _death: it shows that the primitives selected may be arbitrary
2014-12-20T19:29:54Z theseb: _death: yes.that is right
2014-12-20T19:30:43Z _death: CL has the notion of "special operators".. all the operators in the CL standard can be considered "primitives" I suppose
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2014-12-20T19:35:19Z pjb: theseb: macros can be implemented as special operators by an implementation (as long as a "meaningful" macro-function is still provided for code walkers and other tools).  special operators can also be implemented as macros.
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2014-12-20T19:35:39Z pjb: theseb: therefore for the standard, there's no fundamental difference between macros and special operators.
2014-12-20T19:35:44Z theseb: Paul Graham doesn't refer to lambda as a "primitive operator" like quote, atom, cond...why not?
2014-12-20T19:35:58Z theseb: same with what he calls label
2014-12-20T19:36:21Z theseb: i tend to imagine lambda as a "special form"...i.e. an operator with a special evaluation rule
2014-12-20T19:36:23Z theseb: is that bad?
2014-12-20T19:36:31Z pjb: theseb:  furthermore, all the functions in CL, can be "open-coded", ie. inlined, and otherwise compiled in specially, therefore you could also consider them all as special operators (only a fdefinition must still be provided, so that you may apply them).
2014-12-20T19:37:42Z theseb: pjb: yes i noticed that too! macros and special forms are related
2014-12-20T19:38:12Z theseb: pjb: i'd probably say...macros are how one implements new special forms
2014-12-20T19:38:15Z _death: theseb: in Common Lisp, LAMBDA is a macro that expands to (function (lambda ...))
2014-12-20T19:38:23Z pjb: theseb: since the fundamental concept of computation is lambda calculus, and since CL:LAMBDA and CL:FUNCALL approximates lambda calculus, then indeed you can say that the only primitive is lambda (and funcall or apply).  But unless you implement a CL in lambda calculus, it remains theorical.
2014-12-20T19:39:05Z pjb: theseb: the only set of "primitives", is actually provided by the implementation language.
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2014-12-20T19:39:36Z pjb: theseb: for example, beach is implementing SICL in Common-Lisp+MOP, so the primtives for his implementation is the whole Common Lisp+MOP!
2014-12-20T19:39:57Z pjb: theseb: this is just another way to say that your question is meaningless, and you'd better forget about it.
2014-12-20T19:40:11Z _death: theseb: in the old days, LAMBDA was simply used as a marker for a lambda expression when it appeared as the first element of the list
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2014-12-20T19:41:11Z theseb: _death: ok one last question....you said CL implements "lambda" as a macro in terms of "function".....would you call "function" a special form then?
2014-12-20T19:41:16Z oGMo: _death: lambda can't be just a macro unless yo ucan write an identical macro with identical semantics; otherwise it is special
2014-12-20T19:41:26Z _death: theseb: FUNCTION is a special operator in Common Lisp
2014-12-20T19:41:57Z theseb: oGMo: yes....you can have a stack of turtles but there must be a turtle at the bottom that is a special form..that was what i was getting at
2014-12-20T19:42:00Z Hexstream: theseb: In a form like ((lambda (x) x) 2), the whole (lambda (x) x) is the operator. This is specially recognized by the "form evaluator".
2014-12-20T19:42:07Z oGMo: theseb: not necessarily
2014-12-20T19:42:15Z theseb: _death: thanks!
2014-12-20T19:42:25Z oGMo: theseb: but with CL, yes
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2014-12-20T19:42:30Z _death: oGMo: (defmacro adbmal (&rest whatever) `(function (lambda ,@whatever)))
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2014-12-20T19:42:36Z pjb: You do not need special forms.
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2014-12-20T19:42:49Z pjb: You can have macros that expand to function calls!
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2014-12-20T19:43:06Z oGMo: _death: and does ((adbmal (x) (+ x x)) 1) work?
2014-12-20T19:43:18Z _death: oGMo: that has nothing to do with the LAMBDA macro
2014-12-20T19:43:28Z _death: it has to do with the LAMBDA symbol
2014-12-20T19:43:37Z pjb: For example: (defmacro if (test then &optional else) `(if* ,test (lambda () ,then)  (lambda () ,else) ))
2014-12-20T19:43:41Z _death: which is found in my macro's expansion as wel
2014-12-20T19:43:43Z _death: *well
2014-12-20T19:43:47Z oGMo: _death: it still makes lambda special
2014-12-20T19:43:50Z theseb: Hexstream, oGMo: if i can share one little pet peeve......I don't like mathy lisp papers that say..."Wow look what you can do with only 7 operators!!!" and then they try to sneak in the use of lambda and other special operators
2014-12-20T19:44:14Z theseb: if you do that you can't say ..."Wow only 7?!!?"
2014-12-20T19:44:22Z _death: oGMo: yes, the LAMBDA symbol is special in CL
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2014-12-20T19:44:57Z pjb: theseb: the problem with 7 operators, is that they forget application which is written (op arg…).
2014-12-20T19:44:58Z oGMo: theseb: thanks for sharing?
2014-12-20T19:45:16Z pjb: and a few other such semantic aspects.
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2014-12-20T19:46:04Z Hexstream: _death: Or more accurately, "specially recognized". :)
2014-12-20T19:46:10Z _death: Hexstream: sure
2014-12-20T19:46:29Z theseb: pjb: yea..basically when they say 7 they mean "7 operators plus eval/apply"
2014-12-20T19:46:50Z theseb: plus lambda
2014-12-20T19:47:14Z theseb: which is fine i guess
2014-12-20T19:47:23Z theseb: i can roll with that
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2014-12-20T19:53:09Z Grue`: Common Lisp certainly has more than 7, so you should probably read different books if you're trying to learn Common Lisp
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2014-12-20T19:53:54Z theseb: is it ok to call operators "functions"?
2014-12-20T19:54:02Z theseb: and "special forms" just "special functions"?
2014-12-20T19:54:12Z _death: operator = (or special-operator function macro)
2014-12-20T19:54:15Z theseb: as you can i'm privvy to the word functions since i'm a math guy
2014-12-20T19:54:29Z theseb: s/can/can see/
2014-12-20T19:55:13Z theseb: _death: wow..took me a while to figure out you had an sexp in there ;)
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2014-12-20T19:55:44Z _death: if you're a math guy, then maybe you'll want to use the term "procedure" and not "function" :)
2014-12-20T19:56:06Z pjb: There are three kinds of operators: functions, macros and special operators.
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2014-12-20T19:56:31Z theseb: pjb: ah..thanks that helps
2014-12-20T19:57:48Z Grue`: in math f(x) always has the same value, which is not the case with programming; just functional programming, maybe
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2014-12-20T20:01:08Z theseb: Grue`: yea..different communities use the same words in different ways
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2014-12-21T00:12:53Z axion: Xach: what must one do to get a project added to QL?
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2014-12-21T00:19:11Z Xach: axion: make sure it can be built via asdf, that the .asd file has :license :author and :description, make sure it has a license that allows redistribution, and then fill out an issue on github
2014-12-21T00:19:15Z Xach: the faq has a link
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2014-12-21T00:22:43Z axion: Xach: ok yup it does, filling out an issue
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2014-12-21T01:08:02Z Alix: hey guys how do you define a fuction in lisp that takes a list as a parameter. I have this but it's giving me nil
2014-12-21T01:08:14Z Alix: http://paste.pound-python.org/show/M9SeW1ks9v4EZf1PKGQF/
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2014-12-21T01:09:19Z Alix: it's complaining about nil * nil
2014-12-21T01:10:38Z dickle: NIL isn't a number
2014-12-21T01:11:14Z dickle: You may want to use (if (numberp ...) ...) or (typecase ...)
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2014-12-21T01:14:09Z Alix: wht is it giving me nil though? lisp beginner btw
2014-12-21T01:14:16Z Alix: why*
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2014-12-21T01:14:44Z fe[nl]ix: because you don't understand the syntax of Lisp
2014-12-21T01:15:33Z fe[nl]ix: (first(list)) is calling cl:first on the result of a call to the function cl:list
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2014-12-21T01:18:20Z fe[nl]ix: use (first list)
2014-12-21T01:18:22Z dickle: Alix:   '() => NIL         (car NIL) => NIL         (cdr NIL) => NIL
2014-12-21T01:18:34Z dickle: Alix: CAR being FIRST and CDR being REST
2014-12-21T01:18:42Z Alix: yeah the registers
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2014-12-21T01:19:07Z dickle: I missed what fe[nl]ix said, however, which is quite relevant
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2014-12-21T01:20:55Z Alix: thx
2014-12-21T01:21:00Z Alix: it works now
2014-12-21T01:21:17Z Alix: i never know how much paraens to put in lisp there's so many of them
2014-12-21T01:21:32Z Alix: parens**
2014-12-21T01:21:39Z dickle: Only as many as necessary!
2014-12-21T01:21:57Z dickle: You'll get a feel for it soon enough
2014-12-21T01:22:20Z joshe: you put enough so it highlights the opening paren which you expect
2014-12-21T01:23:04Z joshe: I have heard tell of an advanced editing mode called "paraedit" but I have no time to learn such timesaving techniques
2014-12-21T01:23:23Z Alix: yeah i have to use an editor to make sure they match
2014-12-21T01:23:34Z Alix: I think using multiple lines would help too
2014-12-21T01:23:42Z Alix: one liners just look crazy
2014-12-21T01:24:06Z dickle: Alix: Maybe give SLIME a try - it makes CL interactive development wonderful
2014-12-21T01:24:29Z Alix: dickle: thanks i'll look into it
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2014-12-21T01:24:50Z dickle: It works through Emacs but you don't need to learn the whole of Emacs to enjoy SLIME
2014-12-21T01:25:14Z dickle: Alix: You can get it through quicklisp
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2014-12-21T02:42:49Z jasom: Alix: just make sure you have an editor that can indent lisp code for you.  There are not very many with names that don't end in "macs"
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2014-12-22T05:10:43Z 
2014-12-22T05:10:43Z names: ccl-logbot edran fmu nitro_idiot_ capitaomorte` Kabaka AntiSpamMeta grungier killmaster luis robot-be` isoraqathedh_l Fare theos tkhoa2711 chu oleo__ nikki93 psy_ leo2007 Kruppe scharan oconnore InvalidC1 meiji11 gingerale kanru` Longlius vinleod cibs Bicyclidine kushal ndrei beach frkout innertracks harish echo-area protist loke moei defaultxr CrazyM4n atgreen yorick kristof ircbrowse xrash abbe zRecursive Alix theseb tharugrim Adlai kalzz average
2014-12-22T05:10:43Z names: Ethan- arpunk MoALTz karswell Quadrescence bgs100 dmiles_afk araujo Mon_Ouie egp_ hitecnologys dandersen klltkr gensym drdanmaku froggey guaqua nell nyef salv0 justinmcp_ ASau nand1 easye Patzy pjb cpc26 yenda yeticry davorb MrWoohoo fikusz _5kg REPLeffect joneshf-laptop PuercoPop Zhivago s_e Sgeo JuanDaugherty kirin` s00pcan Hydan farhaven DeadTrickster billstclair necronian cjmacs diginet eazar001 joshe joast ecraven whowantstolivefo c74d scymtym_
2014-12-22T05:10:43Z names: rtoym DrCode K1rk blahzik Oddity Intensity Takumo scymtym Soft- sol__ larme cosmicexplorer qlkzy kyl_ nisstyre Subfusc sauerkra- bege rick-monster dxtr bjorkintosh les Phreak quasisane aksatac anunnaki Neptu brent80_plow specbot dan64- tokenrove vlnx redline6561 clop3 tbarletz AeroNotix heurist jayne_ Rudolph-Miller_ rvirding dtw transfinite ssake fe[nl]ix flip214 d4gg4d soggybread p4nd4m4n_ mtd_ gluegadget joga White_Flame NhanH lonjil chrnybo`
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2014-12-22T05:10:43Z names: ianhedoesit drmeister gendl Colleen enfors zeroish sid_cypher Ralt Ober Jesin ivan4th ramus kanru wglb srcerer jim87864` misv eee-blt aerique bobbysmith007 Khisanth Mandus Grue` j0ni kbtr ft notty mearnsh jocuman TDT` katco ``Erik minion nowhereman gabot p_l|backup schoppenhauer Adeon bool_ rk[abc] kjeldahl clog ski nightfly ThePhoeron Nshag drdo jdz mingvs CrazyEddy gz johs __main__ cpt_nemo cmatei z0d alexherbo2 shifty778 roo dim enn jasom pok_
2014-12-22T05:10:43Z names: GuilOooo paritybit copec GGMethos Anarch Plazma pillton byte48 alchemis7 schjetne nicdev splittist ahungry clop2 BlastHardcheese brucem Posterdati lieven ska-fan Odin- xristos bambams Kohelet Xach tessier_ brandonz_ john-mcaleely sivoais ozzloy vhost- housel seg vsync shwouchk stopbit wasamasa yrdz faheem_ gf3 qbit gregburd_ krrrcks troydm lemoinem avawn teiresias victor_lowther cyraxjoe dfox emma tmh_ segmond alpha- viaken wormphle1m gabc hyoyoung_
2014-12-22T05:10:43Z names: Borbus_ xorpse jtz zymurgy Tristam lpaste mikaelj sytse phf` danlentz Tordek eagleflo cmbntr jsnell theBlackDragon vert2 phadthai smull thomas aap Neet sfa Riviera Blkt stux|RC-only _death daimrod cods mood snafuchs dlowe pchrist sshirokov j_king antoszka benny p_l zickzackv ck_ mband eMBee sjl oGMo setheus tkd yauz eak_ cross zbigniew tstc yeltzooo rotty_ sigjuice djinni` nitro_idiot ttm stokachu tomaw
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2014-12-22T05:21:38Z axion: is there a profiling library that will show me the functions that called the top called functions? i am trying to narrow down which location of a very common function in my package that is using a lot of time
2014-12-22T05:23:10Z beach: I think the ordinary profiler in SBCL does that.
2014-12-22T05:23:19Z beach: Unless I am misunderstanding what you are asking for.
2014-12-22T05:23:23Z axion: i should be specific: i'm looking for a way to see whicher caller had the most hits of a function called from multiple places
2014-12-22T05:23:29Z axion: which*
2014-12-22T05:24:21Z nyef: The problem is, if tail-calls are involved, all bets are off.
2014-12-22T05:24:41Z axion: hmm
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2014-12-22T05:31:39Z nyef: Okay, I think I need to get at least some work done tomorrow, so I should sign off right about now.
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2014-12-22T09:11:58Z pjb: wooden_: you can perfectly use strings as keys in plists: (let* ((key1 "one") (key2 "two") (plist (list key1 "un" key2 "deux"))) (getf plist  key2)) --> "deux"
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2014-12-22T09:13:49Z Bicyclidine: what could possibly go wrong with this explanation
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2014-12-22T09:15:04Z pjb: wooden_: on the other hand, for numbers and characters, it wouldn't work, since implementations are permitted to copy numbers and characters when passing them as arguments to functions, so even (let ((x 42)) (eq x x)) may return nil.
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2014-12-22T09:20:35Z playnu: is posible to run Common Lisp in the windows store? (Windows RT)
2014-12-22T09:21:49Z loke: playnu: RT? I thought that one was discontinued?
2014-12-22T09:23:16Z pjb: axion: you can use slime to profile: M-x slime-profile-package and then M-x slime-profile-report
2014-12-22T09:23:52Z playnu: Window rt, is windows but without the win32 api, that is a plain windows 8 store app
2014-12-22T09:23:54Z pjb: playnu: you can generate .exe with various CL implementations. After that, it's up to your MS-Windows tools to sign, bundle and upload it.
2014-12-22T09:24:42Z playnu: thanks, i will try to search that (:
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2014-12-22T12:23:58Z Guest29167: hello mighty wizards =) i hope u are fine and someone have short time for helping me on getting processing of class slots...  i am doing capital 27 from Seibel's PCL: the mp3 database is able to retrieve entries, but I am not able to query all rows/columns AND process their values further on..
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2014-12-22T12:25:14Z Guest29167: (rows *db*) gives me the saved plist but with an #-sign: #((:key1 value1 :key2 ...), and on this i cant do any list actions..
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2014-12-22T12:25:46Z H4ns: Guest29167: #() is the reader syntax for arrays
2014-12-22T12:26:17Z Guest29167: aaaaaaaaaahhhh
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2014-12-22T12:27:15Z Guest29167: okay, haha, never worked with arrays before... that's why i have been blind for hours :D thank you very much
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2014-12-22T12:28:26Z H4ns: sure, good luck!
2014-12-22T12:28:49Z Guest29167: thanks :) have a nice day!
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2014-12-22T12:30:45Z nyef: G'morning all.
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2014-12-22T12:50:26Z shka: good day lispers!
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2014-12-22T12:51:54Z Shinmera: Good afternoon, everyone
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2014-12-22T13:30:58Z rogorogo: how do I quote the contents of a variable?
2014-12-22T13:31:18Z Bicyclidine: context?
2014-12-22T13:31:30Z rogorogo: let's say I have a list (a b c) bound to a variable x
2014-12-22T13:31:40Z rogorogo: I want to obtain '(a b c)
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2014-12-22T13:31:44Z rogorogo: how can I do that?
2014-12-22T13:31:52Z Bicyclidine: that's just x.
2014-12-22T13:31:57Z Bicyclidine: (first x) => a, etc
2014-12-22T13:32:06Z rogorogo: yes but I need the symbol representation
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2014-12-22T13:32:08Z rogorogo: for serialization
2014-12-22T13:32:26Z Bicyclidine: "symbol representation"? it's a list.
2014-12-22T13:32:45Z rogorogo: I know but I want to quote it
2014-12-22T13:32:56Z Bicyclidine: '(a b c) is a list.
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2014-12-22T13:33:04Z rogorogo: I know
2014-12-22T13:33:11Z |3b|: if you mean you have a list in x containing the symbols A,B,C and you want to turn it into the list (QUOTE (A B C)), (cons 'quote x)
2014-12-22T13:33:18Z Bicyclidine: So what do you mean by "symbol representation"?
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2014-12-22T13:33:33Z |3b|: if you have values of variables A,B,C in the list in X, there is no way to tell they came from those variables
2014-12-22T13:33:37Z rogorogo: but I need for example to be able to assign to another variable y the value '(a b c)
2014-12-22T13:33:47Z Bicyclidine: (setf y x)
2014-12-22T13:34:06Z rogorogo: then y's value is (a b c)
2014-12-22T13:34:09Z rogorogo: not '(a b c)
2014-12-22T13:34:18Z Bicyclidine: then just do what 3b said.
2014-12-22T13:34:26Z rogorogo: ok trying in my repl
2014-12-22T13:34:42Z |3b| thinks it would help not use ' in descriptions of 'values' here
2014-12-22T13:34:54Z Bicyclidine: though i think he meant (list 'quote x)
2014-12-22T13:35:08Z rogorogo: yes
2014-12-22T13:35:15Z rogorogo: that's it, thanks
2014-12-22T13:35:21Z |3b|: right, it is confusing whether you mean the actual list (quote (a b c)) or the results of evaluating (quote (a b c))
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2014-12-22T13:35:37Z |3b|: and if you write it out like that, it should be obvious how to create it :)
2014-12-22T13:36:06Z |3b|: and yeah, i wanted LIST not CONS there
2014-12-22T13:36:11Z rogorogo: no wait
2014-12-22T13:36:35Z |3b|: CONS would give (QUOTE A B C) which isn't valid
2014-12-22T13:36:35Z rogorogo: still not right
2014-12-22T13:37:49Z rogorogo: nope, sorry, it is
2014-12-22T13:37:54Z rogorogo: OK, thanks a lot guys!
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2014-12-22T14:31:40Z pjb: Guest29167: you've been misled. #( is reader syntax for vectors.  The reader syntax for arrays is #A.
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2014-12-22T14:50:16Z notalanturing: Hi, there. I learned scheme, and how do I switch to the more powerful lisp without having bad habits from scheme?
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2014-12-22T14:51:19Z Xach: notalanturing: if you want to learn common lisp, start from introductory tutorials and resist the urge to think "i already know all this!" whenever something seems familiar
2014-12-22T14:51:27Z Shinmera: By learning CL without thinking about Scheme
2014-12-22T14:51:39Z Xach: notalanturing: paradigms of ai programming is a good book. so is practical common lisp.
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2014-12-22T14:53:35Z Xach: notalanturing: read a lot of CL code to get a feel for it
2014-12-22T14:55:38Z notalanturing: Xach, thank you a lot. I see there is new book by norvig, called "AI: A modern approach" is it better than paradigms?
2014-12-22T14:55:49Z Xach: notalanturing: it is not for learning common lisp.
2014-12-22T14:56:06Z Xach: notalanturing: paradigms of ai programming is for learning common lisp, AI: AMA is for learning AI.
2014-12-22T14:56:13Z Xach: (I think. I haven't read AIMA)
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2014-12-22T15:06:32Z nyef: PAIP is one part Good Old-Fashioned AI, two parts Common Lisp, and three parts How to Think about Programming. AIMA is all statistics, probabilities, models, meta-models, agency, and language agnosticism.
2014-12-22T15:06:49Z nyef: AIMA presumes that you already know how to program.
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2014-12-22T15:47:10Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2014-12-22T15:47:23Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2014-12-22T15:49:10Z qbit: sir
2014-12-22T15:49:14Z qbit: whoa
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2014-12-22T15:49:16Z qbit: wrong window :D
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2014-12-22T15:51:55Z nyef: ... I last reinstalled my main computer something like two months or more ago. I'm only just NOW installing quicklisp.
2014-12-22T15:52:13Z beach: Bad sign!
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2014-12-22T15:53:45Z nyef: In that... most of my personal lisp hacking for the past couple of months has been on things that don't require external libraries?
2014-12-22T15:53:50Z nyef: Hrm.
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2014-12-22T15:54:42Z eudoxia: yes that's usually a bad sign
2014-12-22T15:54:46Z nyef: I just installed quicklisp, and tried to load :hemlock.clx, and it's complaining that "Component :SPLIT-SEQUENCE not found, required by #<SYSTEM "iolib/base">.
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2014-12-22T15:55:44Z nyef: Absolutely fresh install, running SBCL from the build directory...
2014-12-22T15:55:47Z Shinmera: Ah, ASDF's wonderful error messages that display the error for the wrong system sometimes.
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2014-12-22T15:57:01Z nyef: Xach: Ping?
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2014-12-22T15:58:21Z Shinmera: Hrm
2014-12-22T15:58:39Z Shinmera: I have a completely fresh install too and trying to load iolib tells me it can't find alexandria.
2014-12-22T15:58:43Z Shinmera: What's a goin' on 'ere
2014-12-22T15:59:20Z Xach: That often means they are system definition dependencies.
2014-12-22T15:59:37Z nyef: And there's a line in systems.txt: "iolib iolib iolib/base alexandria iolib iolib iolib split-sequence"
2014-12-22T16:00:06Z Xach tries on a fresh one too
2014-12-22T16:00:09Z nyef: Which suggests to me that I don't understand how systems.txt works...
2014-12-22T16:00:57Z nyef: I'm running SBCL 1.2.5.74-50a07a0 on x86-64/Linux, FWIW.
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2014-12-22T16:01:38Z Shinmera: My SBCL is freshly built from GIT this morning
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2014-12-22T16:02:25Z Xach: nyef: the problem is related to https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/issues/108
2014-12-22T16:02:57Z nyef: Ah. Lovely.
2014-12-22T16:03:43Z nyef: ... I'd've thought that the dependency graph in the dist data would've covered this sort of thing?
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2014-12-22T16:04:09Z Xach: Me too.
2014-12-22T16:05:19Z nyef: Hrm. "iolib-20141217-git/src/syscalls/ffi-types-unix.c:14:17: fatal error: lfp.h: No such file or directory"
2014-12-22T16:05:42Z nyef: Ah, libfixposix?
2014-12-22T16:05:46Z Shinmera: Probably
2014-12-22T16:07:35Z nyef: Looks like installing libfixposix-dev sorted that.
2014-12-22T16:07:55Z nyef: And I'm just going to say that having appropriate RETRY restarts is very nice.
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2014-12-22T16:14:06Z nyef: Hrm... Debian doesn't install the Courier fonts by default?
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2014-12-22T16:16:19Z drmeister: In Common Lisp a "namestring" always refers to a STRING object rather than a PATHNAME object - would you agree with that?
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2014-12-22T16:17:16Z drmeister: It may sound like a small detail but I'm trying to clean up some naming in my code.
2014-12-22T16:17:55Z nyef: Yes.
2014-12-22T16:18:00Z nyef: clhs namestring, Glossary
2014-12-22T16:18:03Z nyef: Hrm.
2014-12-22T16:18:05Z nyef: clhs namestring
2014-12-22T16:18:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_namest.htm
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2014-12-22T16:18:12Z nyef: Ugh.
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2014-12-22T16:19:15Z nyef: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_n.htm#namestring is what I was looking for.
2014-12-22T16:19:42Z drmeister: That's good - thank you.  It's taken a while for the pathname <-> namestring thing to sink in with me.
2014-12-22T16:20:26Z drmeister: Some variables in C++ that I was calling xxxPathname should be xxxNamestring
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2014-12-22T16:22:36Z nyef: ... Do I need to restart my X server to get it to notice newly-installed fonts?
2014-12-22T16:22:39Z arademaker: does anyone had experience with a undergrad course of data structures using Common Lisp? Any suggestion of book or other reference?
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2014-12-22T16:23:48Z beach: arademaker: Undergraduate courses using Common Lisp are rare.  Even more so if you want them to be about data structures.
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2014-12-22T16:27:40Z arademaker: beach: that is why I am making the question! Maybe we can have someone where with some previous experience or suggestion. I will teach a course in algorithms and data strucutures. I am looking for good references and tips.
2014-12-22T16:29:19Z beach: I have experience with teaching data structures.  There are no good books that I know of.  That's the reason I wrote my own.  It is using "fake" Common Lisp in that it doesn't mention Common Lisp and it doesn't use parentheses, but in fact all the algorithm examples are translated from running Common Lisp code.
2014-12-22T16:29:43Z beach: I haven't quite finished the book yet.
2014-12-22T16:30:02Z beach: I have half a chapter left and I need to write more tests for the algorithms.
2014-12-22T16:30:56Z arademaker: Hum! Is it available online? Maybe at least the table of contents and a sample of pages?
2014-12-22T16:31:09Z beach: arademaker: Most books present algorithms and data types using an algorithmic language roughly the level of Fortran.
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2014-12-22T16:31:44Z beach: arademaker: It is not available online.  But I'll be happy to give you a peek review.
2014-12-22T16:31:58Z beach: arademaker: Hold on and I'll make the table of contents for you.
2014-12-22T16:34:32Z arademaker: beach: thank you. In previous courses I used Algorithms from Papadimitriou! But I am looking for alternatives.
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2014-12-22T16:35:46Z beach: arademaker: http://metamodular.com/types.pdf
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2014-12-22T16:35:58Z beach: arademaker: Let me know if there is a chapter that you want a closer look at.
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2014-12-22T16:36:56Z beach: arademaker: I don't know that book.  What I do know is that most books are written by people who never program, so they don't know about things like pointer.  Instead they use parallel vectors with integer indexes, just like one would in Fortran.
2014-12-22T16:37:35Z beach: arademaker: My book assumes what I call "Uniform reference semantics" which is also unusual in existing books.
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2014-12-22T16:41:17Z beach: arademaker: Let me know how you like section 1.2. :)
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2014-12-22T16:43:02Z arademaker: beach: reading it now. Nice so far! ;-)
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2014-12-22T16:47:14Z beach: arademaker: Looking at the book by Papadimitriou and Vazirani.  Is that the one you mean?  It has no data structures in it.
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2014-12-22T16:52:44Z arademaker: beach: yes but indirectly. my course is for undergrad in Applied Mathematics. So I actually try to cover data structures and algorithms. but I am trying to rethink the course.
2014-12-22T16:52:58Z beach: I see.
2014-12-22T16:53:19Z beach: My book is definitely not for students of applied math.
2014-12-22T16:53:53Z arademaker: This is the book fro Papadimitriou, http://goo.gl/gi7zH9
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2014-12-22T16:54:42Z arademaker: I see. I can't go much deeper into something more expected to be cover in a undergrad of CS.
2014-12-22T16:56:14Z beach: In my opinion, your initial question was strange if you are targeting applied math.  You would want neither data structures nor Common Lisp for them.
2014-12-22T16:56:35Z beach: Unless you want them to abandon the course in droves.
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2014-12-22T16:57:13Z arademaker: beach: their first course in programming languages (programming I) is in Common Lisp. I teach this course too.
2014-12-22T16:57:27Z beach: Wow, I am impressed.
2014-12-22T16:57:34Z beach: I take back what I just said.
2014-12-22T16:57:41Z beach: Where do you teach this?
2014-12-22T16:57:46Z drmeister: arademaker: Where do you teach?
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2014-12-22T16:59:14Z arademaker: I taught CL and Haskell (https://github.com/arademaker/LP-2014-2) with examples from http://goo.gl/jM2cNi
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2014-12-22T16:59:48Z beach: That's a great book.
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2014-12-22T17:00:42Z arademaker: and other practical exercises like a simple propositional teorem prover, SAX parser and others.
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2014-12-22T17:01:27Z beach: Portugal?  Brazil?
2014-12-22T17:01:30Z arademaker: beach: but for this second course, I must be more focus on analysis of algorithms and data structures.
2014-12-22T17:01:36Z arademaker: Brazil.
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2014-12-22T17:01:48Z beach: Nice, I'll come help you teach. :)
2014-12-22T17:02:04Z arademaker: I am from IBM Research Lab and professor at http://emap.fgv.br.
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2014-12-22T17:03:14Z beach: Excellent!
2014-12-22T17:03:31Z arademaker: Any help is welcome! ;-)
2014-12-22T17:04:02Z beach: I can finish the book if you give me some time. :)
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2014-12-22T17:04:26Z arademaker: beach: I will write to you offline once I finished this same, right?
2014-12-22T17:04:54Z beach: "this same"?
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2014-12-22T17:06:21Z arademaker: beach: sorry, this sample that you sent to me.
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2014-12-22T17:07:08Z beach: arademaker: Oh, OK.  If you tell me a month or two in advance, I can finish the book.  Then I put it up on Amazon and you can order it.
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2014-12-22T17:09:54Z beach: arademaker: Again, if there is a chapter you would like to examine, let me know.
2014-12-22T17:10:52Z beach: It is kind of on-topic in #lisp because, like I said, I wrote all the algorithms in Common Lisp, and I have an automatic translator to algorithmic notation.
2014-12-22T17:11:07Z beach: I could not imagine typesetting all those algorithms "by hand".
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2014-12-22T17:12:47Z beach: arademaker: In fact, I could give you the Common Lisp source code for all the algorithms, should you decide to use the book.
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2014-12-22T17:13:34Z shka: hi
2014-12-22T17:13:49Z beach: Hello shka.
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2014-12-22T17:14:15Z shka: how can i check if two funcallable objects perform the same logic?
2014-12-22T17:14:32Z beach: shka: That's undecidable, so you can't.
2014-12-22T17:14:38Z nyef: What do you mean "perform the same logic"?
2014-12-22T17:14:44Z shka: i suppose i can check if both symbols points to the same object with eq
2014-12-22T17:15:42Z drmeister: Right - otherwise you are trying to solve the "Halting problem".
2014-12-22T17:16:04Z shka: nyef: i hopped that i can deal with cases where user can pass lambda, than i would be able to somehow check if those two functions have same assembly code
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2014-12-22T17:16:20Z shka: but that's ok
2014-12-22T17:16:27Z shka: i know how i can deal with it
2014-12-22T17:16:31Z shka: in more sensible way
2014-12-22T17:17:05Z dim: hi
2014-12-22T17:17:09Z beach: shka: So by "perform the same logic", you meant "same assembly code"?
2014-12-22T17:17:16Z beach: shka: That's decidable.
2014-12-22T17:17:26Z shka: beach: yeah, but stupid
2014-12-22T17:17:26Z beach: Hello dim.
2014-12-22T17:17:35Z shka: dim: greetings!
2014-12-22T17:17:40Z dim: is it possible to know which condition a specific form might signal in a "static analysis" way, meaning just looking at the code, not running it?
2014-12-22T17:17:42Z beach: shka: The functions would have to be very much the same.
2014-12-22T17:17:43Z nyef: Yeah, wow. That's... Impossible to produce a full solution for, and gets harder the closer you try to come to a full solution.
2014-12-22T17:17:50Z dim: (I don't have an easy test case for that one)
2014-12-22T17:17:59Z beach: dim: That's another undecidable problem.
2014-12-22T17:18:17Z nyef: ... and I'd never thought of such proof searches as being similar to trying to reach the speed of light before, but...
2014-12-22T17:18:20Z dim: I'd like to avoid (handler-bind ((condition ...)) ...)
2014-12-22T17:18:46Z dim: beach: ok... in the general case, or even for a quite simple piece of code?
2014-12-22T17:19:07Z beach: dim: You can define "simple" to be "code for which it is possible".
2014-12-22T17:19:16Z dim: I'm looking at (sysdb-data-to-lisp %dbproc (%dbdata %dbproc i) (%dbcoltype %dbproc i) (%dbdatlen %dbproc i)) from the mssql CL driver, that uses CFFI
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2014-12-22T17:19:36Z dim: I'm interested into encoding errors specifically
2014-12-22T17:19:51Z dim: like Illegal :UTF-8 character starting at position 1
2014-12-22T17:20:13Z arademaker: beach: yes sure. I will let you know.
2014-12-22T17:20:15Z dim: so I think I need to look at foreign-string-length in CFFI
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2014-12-22T17:26:59Z pjb: -
2014-12-22T17:27:51Z dim: well I pasted the wrong function name, but anyway, it's a mess
2014-12-22T17:28:09Z dim: the cffi decoding routine are all run-time generated
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2014-12-22T17:28:24Z dim: maybe load-time, idk
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2014-12-22T18:23:49Z zophy: omg, lisp is thought
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2014-12-22T18:34:09Z dim: having not to use it even more so ;-)
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2014-12-29T08:22:57Z stassats: oh bother, why does slime now asks me to save all the lisp files when i do C-c C-k
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2014-12-29T08:25:13Z stassats: and it was a deliberate bloody change
2014-12-29T08:26:55Z stassats: even .el files, what the bloody hell, i'll revert that change, it's completely bonkers
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2014-12-29T08:28:21Z stassats: ok, it was fixed already, as i didn't update slime in fear of more breaking changes
2014-12-29T08:29:15Z stassats: https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/slime.el#L2502
2014-12-29T08:29:22Z stassats: spot the problem
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2014-12-29T10:32:52Z francogrex: Hi, I invented a game: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144959
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2014-12-29T10:34:22Z weedgoku: i'm new to lisp and programming in general - how would you run the game? i have emacs installed but not slime
2014-12-29T10:34:42Z akkad: sbcl --load game.lisp
2014-12-29T10:34:47Z francogrex: just load it
2014-12-29T10:35:04Z francogrex: it's pretty simple no AI involved
2014-12-29T10:35:08Z francogrex: yet
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2014-12-29T10:37:46Z stassats: i have a lot of code notes but i'm not going to disclose them
2014-12-29T10:38:59Z stassats: except for one thing that strikes me especially weird: (< 0 (length (aref *grid* R C)) 2), that would be (= (length (aref *grid* R C)) 1)
2014-12-29T10:39:04Z weedgoku: i'm not sure what you do with sbcl --load game.lisp
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2014-12-29T10:40:02Z francogrex: yes true. my son who's used to 3D graphics in playstation 3 thinks it sucks but hey
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2014-12-29T10:40:55Z loke: stassats: I wanted to see if I could create an optimisation for SBCL, to have (format nil "~aX~a..." ARGS) (where ARGS are type-constrained to strings) be rewritten as a call to (concatenate 'string ...).
2014-12-29T10:41:24Z loke: stassats: Should that be done using a single DEFTRANSFORM?
2014-12-29T10:41:27Z stassats: so, could you?
2014-12-29T10:42:18Z stassats: no, it should be done in expand-control-string
2014-12-29T10:42:41Z francogrex: weedgoku: simply start a lisp image, you know how to do that?
2014-12-29T10:42:48Z weedgoku: nope
2014-12-29T10:43:21Z francogrex: well then you better read, a lot of basics first (google PCL lisp)
2014-12-29T10:43:22Z stassats: though expand-control-string doesn't know about NIL
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2014-12-29T10:43:46Z weedgoku: ok
2014-12-29T10:44:05Z weedgoku: thanks for the pointer to further info
2014-12-29T10:44:19Z stassats: ok, maybe i can give you the notes
2014-12-29T10:44:28Z loke: stassats: Thanks. I'll dig into this and try to understand the guts of expand-control-string
2014-12-29T10:44:36Z stassats: why does (defparameter *grid* (make-array '(4 4) :initial-element nil))  have initial if it's initialized immediately?
2014-12-29T10:44:50Z stassats: why is it initialized with setf instead of using :initial-contents?
2014-12-29T10:45:19Z francogrex noting the remarks of stassats
2014-12-29T10:45:24Z stassats: in (format t "~{~a~}~%~%" (list  #\tab 0 #\tab 1 #\tab 2 #\tab 3)), why do you create a list of constants?
2014-12-29T10:45:36Z stassats: why not '(#\tab 0 #\tab 1 #\tab 2 #\tab 3)?
2014-12-29T10:45:56Z stassats: or why not just do (write-line "	0	1	2	3")?
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2014-12-29T10:46:11Z stassats: (princ #\newline) is (terpri)
2014-12-29T10:46:33Z stassats: (equal (elt cell 0) #\T), characters are EQL comparable
2014-12-29T10:46:48Z stassats: the utility of (t nil) cond-leg is questionable
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2014-12-29T10:48:50Z stassats: (every (lambda (x) (<= x 1)) (list (abs (- RA RD)) (abs (- CA CD)))) => (and (<= -1 (- RA RD) 1) (<= -1 (- CA CD) 1))
2014-12-29T10:49:15Z stassats: (defun at () (block att ..)) why the block? it already has an implicit (block at ...)
2014-12-29T10:51:22Z stassats: (nth (random 2 *rnd*) (list (concatenate 'string "T" col) (concatenate 'string "S" col))) => (concatenate 'string (if (= (random 2) 1) "T" "S") col)
2014-12-29T10:52:40Z stassats: (max 1 (values (ceiling (/ sum 4)))) what are the VALUES for?
2014-12-29T10:52:49Z stassats: (max 1 (ceiling sum 4))
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2014-12-29T10:54:15Z akkad: fare-memoization::memoization-info ftw
2014-12-29T10:56:41Z akkad: https://github.com/kozross/awesome-cl is a good source as well
2014-12-29T10:58:14Z stassats: and for the points function: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144959#1
2014-12-29T10:58:42Z stassats: and you don't want to use strings, use integers instead
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2014-12-29T11:01:28Z francogrex: ok much better thanks. only one I didn't get and it is the first remark.
2014-12-29T11:01:58Z francogrex: wouldn't it be more verbose to do other than initial elements?
2014-12-29T11:01:58Z stassats: which remark?
2014-12-29T11:02:10Z francogrex: the initialization of the grid
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2014-12-29T11:03:10Z francogrex: for example it is possible that I would want to enlarge the grid to 10 10 later on
2014-12-29T11:03:25Z stassats: it'll take less space than calling setf and aref
2014-12-29T11:04:52Z francogrex: ok and this: (format t "~{~a~}~%~%" '(#\tab 0 #\tab 1 #\tab 2 #\tab 3)) I would like to not have the constants but that it gets deduced from the dimensions of the grid
2014-12-29T11:05:48Z francogrex: i cna change this
2014-12-29T11:05:51Z francogrex: can
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2014-12-29T11:10:29Z stassats: loke: right, it has to be a transform, i didn't fully parse your question
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2014-12-29T11:13:46Z francogrex: how about: (format t (format nil "~~{~~a~~^~a~~}" #\tab) (loop for i from 0 below (array-dimension *grid* 1) collect i))
2014-12-29T11:13:57Z stassats: no
2014-12-29T11:14:16Z stassats: what's with you and all this unnecessary list creation?
2014-12-29T11:14:39Z francogrex: it seemed too much
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2014-12-29T11:14:54Z francogrex: i like the ~~{~~a~~^~a~~} though
2014-12-29T11:14:55Z stassats: and even at that, unnecessary double format
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2014-12-29T12:02:11Z mrkkrp: gnu readline uses global vars to redirect its output. These vars are of type FILE *. Is there a way to set them so rl functions like rl_macro_dumper would print to *standard-output* (even if it's rebound to a file stream for example)?
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2014-12-29T12:30:57Z knobo: Anyone used caveman here?
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2014-12-29T12:32:44Z knobo: I'm thinking about a way to create reusable extendable general purpose components for caveman.
2014-12-29T12:35:40Z dim: I like hunchentoot + simple-routes (hacked a little) myself
2014-12-29T12:37:02Z knobo: So if I'm building a site, I could for example include a user-component with login, signup, enable/disable and other elementary things.
2014-12-29T12:39:16Z Shinmera: knobo: Sounds more like you're looking for Clack middleware or something like that
2014-12-29T12:39:23Z Shinmera doesn't have much of an idea about fukamachi-ware
2014-12-29T12:39:52Z Shinmera: Or Radiance, actually, but that's not released yet.
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2014-12-29T12:56:00Z phadthai: mrkkrp: if you can find an ffi C file stream to CL/gray stream library, it should be possible; I'm not sure if cffi or iolib allow this natively; ECL does support that however
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2014-12-29T12:59:54Z phadthai: mrkkrp: assuming that I understood your question, that is
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2014-12-29T13:05:50Z mrkkrp: phadthai, what about this: open in-memory-only c file (I don't remember how, but it should be possible), temporarily assign pointer to the file to rl_outstream, call function to print something, extract contents of the file as a string, convert it to a lisp string, print lisp string to *standard-output*. If there is no decent solution, I could write a macro to do this sort of things. Thanks for your response.
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2014-12-29T13:06:41Z Zhivago: There is no standard way to do so in C.
2014-12-29T13:06:47Z phadthai: mrkkrp: C itself lacks the functionality
2014-12-29T13:06:55Z mrkkrp: Zhivago, oh no
2014-12-29T13:07:22Z Zhivago: However, the goal itself seems wrong.
2014-12-29T13:07:34Z mrkkrp: why?
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2014-12-29T13:08:02Z Zhivago: What proble, are you actually trying to solve?
2014-12-29T13:09:26Z mrkkrp: I'm writing bindings for gnu readline. I want to reduce some hairness, so some function that print output to rl_outstream could print to *standard-output*, so programmer can control where to print in lispy way
2014-12-29T13:09:40Z mrkkrp: *some functions
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2014-12-29T13:10:45Z Zhivago: Under posix you might rebind fd 1 to a local pipe.
2014-12-29T13:10:48Z phadthai: I guess that using lower level functions like fork and pipes, or popen, you could perform custom redirection using file descriptors
2014-12-29T13:11:47Z Zhivago: But I think wanting to do that is also wrong.
2014-12-29T13:12:18Z phadthai: you'd still need some active redirection code to connect the file descriptor to the CL stream, if you have no support for ffi/CL level CL<->FILE *
2014-12-29T13:12:32Z Zhivago: readline is for interactive editing of input lined.
2014-12-29T13:12:42Z mrkkrp: thanks, I know
2014-12-29T13:12:56Z mrkkrp: I don't want to redirect input
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2014-12-29T13:13:18Z mrkkrp: it has some info-functions like rl_macro_dumper and rl_variable_dumper
2014-12-29T13:13:34Z Zhivago: If you redirevt output, how can you interactively edit?
2014-12-29T13:13:56Z mrkkrp: these function has nothing to do with interactive editing
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2014-12-29T13:14:11Z mrkkrp: they just print some info
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2014-12-29T13:14:53Z mrkkrp: what if you want to save their output to a file?
2014-12-29T13:15:00Z Zhivago: Then \i suggest remplementing them to generate strings instead.
2014-12-29T13:15:35Z mrkkrp: if C had in-memory files
2014-12-29T13:15:39Z mrkkrp: it would be easy
2014-12-29T13:17:37Z phadthai: your particular libc stdio might allow to plug in custom hooks to streams, but that's of course non-standard
2014-12-29T13:18:12Z phadthai: maybe some abstract library exists for this supporting some libc implementations, but I have no experience with such
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2014-12-29T13:20:39Z Zhivago: You can alwayd write a file, but inspecting thr readtable should be easy.
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2014-12-29T13:24:12Z Zhivago: Although I forget how horrible readline is.
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2014-12-29T13:47:58Z mrkkrp: Zhivago: what about open_memstream family of functions, they are specified in POSIX.1-2008 (according to man page).
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2014-12-29T13:49:23Z Zhivago: Posix isn't C, but otherwise, sure
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2014-12-29T13:52:21Z mrkkrp: zhivago, yeah, man says these functions are not widely available on other systems. Although I care mainly about Unix-like OSes, this solution is definetely not perfect.
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2014-12-29T14:02:20Z francogrex: what is the most efficient way to delete bytes/words from a file in place using random access: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144961 ?
2014-12-29T14:03:28Z H4ns: francogrex: there is no portable way to delete data from files in common lisp.
2014-12-29T14:03:29Z francogrex: in one pass preferably
2014-12-29T14:04:05Z francogrex: H4ns: in other languages do you know if possible?
2014-12-29T14:04:06Z Zhivago: Overwrite, instead.
2014-12-29T14:04:08Z H4ns: francogrex: your best bet is to completely rewrite the file.  you will have to rewrite from the point where you delete data anyway.
2014-12-29T14:04:26Z H4ns: francogrex: no, unix does not have record oriented files where records in the middle can be deleted.
2014-12-29T14:08:23Z francogrex: ok
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2014-12-29T14:16:19Z francogrex: if i could overwrite with #\backspace or something but that's obviously not the effect I'm after...
2014-12-29T14:16:54Z H4ns: francogrex: you can't.  if you want to absolutely update the file in place, you need to rewrite from the point of deletion and truncate the file to get rid of the unwanted tail.
2014-12-29T14:17:14Z H4ns: francogrex: i'd rather write to a new file and rename it at the end.  that is also safer in case of errors.
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2014-12-29T14:22:08Z Grue`: maybe the idea is to rewrite the entire file, but as the "writing head" is always behind "reading head" it is theoretically possible to do it in one pass without claiming any extra disk space
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2014-12-29T14:23:02Z ggole: What?
2014-12-29T14:23:25Z H4ns: you could also inhale the file into ram, delete the original and then rewrite.  if disk space is most important and safety does not matter.
2014-12-29T14:23:55Z Grue`: if we're talking really big files, it won't fit in ram
2014-12-29T14:24:21Z H4ns: if we're talking really big files, deleting something from the middle is the wrong approach in any case.
2014-12-29T14:24:22Z Grue`: which is probably the only time one would need to do an optimization like this anyway
2014-12-29T14:24:42Z francogrex: it's only the concept I am trying to understand it won't be for anything really practical.
2014-12-29T14:25:09Z francogrex: what H4ns suggested instead is easily doable I have no problem from a practical perspective
2014-12-29T14:25:10Z H4ns: francogrex: conceptually, files are nowadays streams of bytes which you can append to at the end.
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2014-12-29T14:42:45Z mrkkrp: I need to define array of 64 chars as the last field in a foreign structure, but I can't find how to do it in cffi. Any ideas?
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2014-12-29T15:08:54Z mrkkrp: ah, I missed :count...
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2014-12-29T16:30:38Z mrkkrp: given an int, how to extract least significant byte from it, and the second byte too. so for example 0x00000201 should produce 1 and 2.. I remember there were some functions for masking, but I can't recall their names :(
2014-12-29T16:32:44Z oGMo: logand?
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2014-12-29T16:34:16Z oGMo: i think you could also use ldb for that particular case, but
2014-12-29T16:34:22Z Xach: mrkkrp: many options. (ldb (byte 8 0) #x0201) => 1, (ldb (byte 8 8) #x0201) => 2
2014-12-29T16:35:51Z mrkkrp: ldb seems to be exactly what I need
2014-12-29T16:36:01Z mrkkrp: oGMo: but what?
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2014-12-29T16:38:23Z oGMo: mrkkrp: but you should read the relevant pages and be aware of the options, because you may want to do more than just that, now or in the future
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2014-12-29T17:05:06Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2014-12-29T17:05:22Z Shinmera: Hullo, beach.
2014-12-29T17:06:16Z Shinmera: beach: Btw regarding your earlier idea of having a class to represent words in the document structure: I'm not so sure if that's a good idea due to different scripts having different concepts of what constitues a word.
2014-12-29T17:07:08Z beach: Shinmera: I see.  It was intended to be used only with scripts that allow it.
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2014-12-29T17:07:20Z beach: Not a big deal.
2014-12-29T17:07:48Z Shinmera: Right, but that leads to a bit of mangling of concepts. I'll have to think some more to see if it's well integrable.
2014-12-29T17:08:05Z beach: Don't worry about it.
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2014-12-29T17:08:25Z Shinmera: Worrying is my forte
2014-12-29T17:08:37Z beach: Heh, OK, worry about it then. :)
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2014-12-29T17:11:34Z beach: Shinmera: You probably already thought about this, but when you described your idea, I was thinking that one element that would be a result of some transformations (such as to PDF) would be a PAGE.  That element would typically not be present in the input provided by the user of course.
2014-12-29T17:12:12Z Shinmera: That could become problematic due to the inability to properly predict when an output format makes a page cut.
2014-12-29T17:12:56Z beach: I meant, one transformation could be to make such page cuts.
2014-12-29T17:13:07Z beach: ... sort of what TeX is doing.
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2014-12-29T17:13:18Z Shinmera: You mean inserting a "new page marker"?
2014-12-29T17:13:53Z ZombieChicken: I may be asking for the impossible, but is there a lightweight CL interpreter that doesn't require any external libs other than a libc?
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2014-12-29T17:14:07Z Shinmera: Because I don't really know how our model could conceivably guess which parts go into what page. It would have to calculate all sorts of metrics to do that reliably.
2014-12-29T17:14:13Z beach: No, I mean transforming a high-level description (sections, paragraphs, figures, etc) to a low-level description (pages, lines).
2014-12-29T17:14:26Z Xach: ZombieChicken: ecl, maybe.
2014-12-29T17:14:38Z Xach doesn't actually know what it requires, though
2014-12-29T17:14:46Z Shinmera: beach: Well that could be done, I suppose, but it would require quite a lot of effort more than I'm currently intending
2014-12-29T17:14:53Z beach: Shinmera: It is not a matter of guessing.  It is a matter of doing the calculations to DECIDE where page breaks go.
2014-12-29T17:15:04Z Shinmera: Right
2014-12-29T17:15:15Z beach: Shinmera: I am not asking you to do write that transformation.
2014-12-29T17:15:15Z Shinmera: but that requires font metrics and basically a whole load of things
2014-12-29T17:15:32Z Shinmera: The system would definitely be capable of being extended for such things
2014-12-29T17:15:38Z beach: Shinmera: I am only asking you to think about including the elements that such a transformation would need.
2014-12-29T17:15:48Z Shinmera: Alright.
2014-12-29T17:15:49Z beach: Yeah, that's all I am saying.
2014-12-29T17:16:02Z Shinmera: I'll take that into account.
2014-12-29T17:16:15Z beach: Good.  Just a though.  No requirement. :)
2014-12-29T17:16:20Z Shinmera: Being able to eventually completely replace TeX sounds rather tempting.
2014-12-29T17:16:35Z beach: I don't think it is that hard.
2014-12-29T17:16:51Z beach: Especially if the document exists in structured form already.
2014-12-29T17:18:21Z beach: One more thing I thought about: I don't think it is wise to have several different types of sectioning elements (chapter, section, subsection).  I find myself spending a lot of time renaming those when I want to extract a part of a document.
2014-12-29T17:18:40Z beach: I would rather that the nesting + type of document determine what is a chapter and what is a section, etc.
2014-12-29T17:19:02Z eudoxia: what i have in commondoc is just a `<section>` element, and depth (section, subsection, etc.) is calculated by traversing the document
2014-12-29T17:19:10Z Shinmera: Well, the reason why it exists in TeX and similar is that they don't really have a concept of nesting, but sure.
2014-12-29T17:19:16Z beach: eudoxia: Yes, I saw that.
2014-12-29T17:19:46Z beach: eudoxia: What Shinmera is doing is a lot more ambitious than your project.
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2014-12-29T17:20:04Z beach: eudoxia: Maybe you have seen in the logs what he is planning?
2014-12-29T17:20:29Z eudoxia: beach: i read a part of the logs
2014-12-29T17:21:02Z beach: eudoxia: Since you have given this some thought, your input would be valuable.
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2014-12-29T17:21:12Z eudoxia: vaguely, Shinmera, what you want is frontend/backend independent macros?
2014-12-29T17:21:44Z Shinmera: What I want is a document transformation framework.
2014-12-29T17:22:06Z eudoxia: what i've thought about doing is adding macros, and macro document elements to CommonDoc, so you just push a document through a macroexpanding function and it expands the macro elements to primitive elements
2014-12-29T17:23:01Z eudoxia: you would still have to implement the parsers and emitters, there's no getting around that
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2014-12-29T17:27:36Z beach: Who is maintaining the ANSI test suite created by Paul Dietz?
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2014-12-29T17:27:47Z stassats: oh my, i got a pull request for closer-apl, somebody took it seriously
2014-12-29T17:28:30Z Bicyclidine: told you to extend it!
2014-12-29T17:28:34Z eudoxia: beach: as a silly example: you could have a <wiki-link> class that has slot with a wiki page title. then you define an expand-macro method for that class, which returns a regular <link> class to the wiki page's url, which would be found by searching a DB
2014-12-29T17:30:19Z beach: eudoxia: Sounds good.
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2014-12-29T17:35:23Z beach: I am asking about the ANSI test suite because I found bugs in the tests for LOOP.  If nobody is maintaining it, perhaps it should be moved to GIT to make it easier to update.
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2014-12-29T17:39:37Z beach: I sent an email to the address indicated in the version of the test suite that I have.  I'll keep #lisp participants updated about what happens.
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2014-12-29T18:15:52Z eudoxia: beach: isn't there a copy in sbcl/cl-ansi-tests?
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2014-12-29T18:28:29Z beach: eudoxia: I have the test suite.  I just want to know where to report problems with it.
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2014-12-29T18:28:41Z eudoxia: beach: ah, ok
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2014-12-29T18:32:00Z beach: Hmm, no copyright notice or license.
2014-12-29T18:32:15Z beach: Still talking about the ANSI test suite.
2014-12-29T18:33:04Z ZombieChicken: What versions of Common Lisp are suggested other than SBCL?
2014-12-29T18:33:20Z stassats`: ccl
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2014-12-29T18:34:47Z ZombieChicken: what about gcl?
2014-12-29T18:35:08Z Xach: not suggested
2014-12-29T18:35:10Z eudoxia: it's dead, jim
2014-12-29T18:35:24Z Xach: It's alive, but not very good as a standard Common Lisp
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2014-12-29T18:35:28Z ZombieChicken: ok
2014-12-29T18:35:51Z ZombieChicken: ty
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2014-12-29T18:43:35Z dlowe: the commercial ones are all good, too
2014-12-29T18:44:39Z Xach is sad the corman cl open sourcing petered out
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2014-12-29T20:10:41Z ZombieChicken: hrm
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2014-12-29T20:12:55Z ZombieChicken: just tried to get sbcl-1.2.4 running and an error occured: can't find core file at /usr/local/lib/sbcl//sbcl.core <- What is asking for this file?
2014-12-29T20:13:10Z Xach: ZombieChicken: the sbcl runtime. it usually means you have not installed sbcl fully.
2014-12-29T20:13:23Z Xach: ZombieChicken: did you run "sh install.sh" as root?
2014-12-29T20:14:10Z ZombieChicken: I installed it via emerge. sbcl.core is in /usr/lib64, so I'm looking for where it is asking for that file so I can fix that
2014-12-29T20:14:25Z stassats`: consult emerge authors
2014-12-29T20:14:37Z Xach: I would avoid using emerge and instead get a binary from www.sbcl.org instead.
2014-12-29T20:15:00Z ZombieChicken: Mind if I ask why?
2014-12-29T20:15:06Z stassats`: that binary has the benefit that we will be able to help you with problems
2014-12-29T20:15:25Z ZombieChicken: lol
2014-12-29T20:15:28Z ZombieChicken: okay
2014-12-29T20:15:31Z Xach: ZombieChicken: it should work.
2014-12-29T20:15:53Z Hexstream: Distro-provided Common Lisp stuff is more of the realm of problems than solutions, in general.
2014-12-29T20:16:06Z stassats`: unless there are gentoo sbcl maintainers here, not much help can be received
2014-12-29T20:16:26Z stassats`: didn't fe[nl]ix use to be one?
2014-12-29T20:17:33Z oGMo: ZombieChicken: definitely use the official binary, or better build it yourself, though you should probably do a 'which sbcl' to make sure you're actually using the one you think
2014-12-29T20:17:39Z Xach: Distro-provided lisp is probably ok if you can get help directly from the distro-provider.
2014-12-29T20:17:44Z Xach: They don't often hang out here and provide help though.
2014-12-29T20:19:00Z ZombieChicken: I just unmerged sbcl and I'm looking at getting sbcl-1.2.6 to install
2014-12-29T20:19:04Z Hexstream: I'm reminded of "common-lisp-controller" in particular. Ugh.
2014-12-29T20:19:08Z oGMo: Hexstream: ergh
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2014-12-29T20:21:21Z ZombieChicken: this is interesting
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2014-12-29T20:22:28Z ZombieChicken: INSTALL_ROOT=/usr/local sh install.sh errors out: install.sh line 13: output/prefix.def: no such file or directory
2014-12-29T20:22:32Z ZombieChicken: then
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2014-12-29T20:22:56Z ZombieChicken: make.sh errors make-host-1.sh: line 34: sbcl: command not found
2014-12-29T20:23:02Z Xach: ZombieChicken: that suggests to me that you have the source code, not a binary
2014-12-29T20:23:19Z Xach: ZombieChicken: you need to install a binary to be able to build the sources (and if you have the binary, you need not build from source)
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2014-12-29T20:23:53Z ZombieChicken: alright, found the bin
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2014-12-29T20:26:59Z Hexstream: ZombieChicken: It's a good idea to also download the source and point to it with (sb-ext:set-sbcl-source-location "/your/sbcl/source/location"), this way you can M-. into the SBCL source for standard symbols despite using a pre-built binary.
2014-12-29T20:27:09Z Xach: no rush, though
2014-12-29T20:28:15Z ZombieChicken: the bin is installed
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2014-12-29T20:28:30Z Xach: yay!
2014-12-29T20:29:04Z ZombieChicken: never seen a package ask for itself when installing before
2014-12-29T20:29:06Z ZombieChicken: That was weird
2014-12-29T20:29:25Z Xach: ZombieChicken: SBCL is written in Common Lisp, so you need a CL environment to build it.
2014-12-29T20:29:27Z stassats`: have you seen gcc?
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2014-12-29T20:31:41Z ZombieChicken: iirc, gcc uses a compiler to compile part of itself, then compiles itself
2014-12-29T20:31:54Z ZombieChicken: I don't like thinking about that, either
2014-12-29T20:31:57Z stassats`: so does sbcl
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2014-12-29T20:32:48Z ZombieChicken: I guess that makes sense
2014-12-29T20:33:04Z ZombieChicken: Doesn't sbcl do jit bytecode compiling?
2014-12-29T20:33:09Z Xach: ZombieChicken: no
2014-12-29T20:33:11Z stassats`: it does not
2014-12-29T20:33:17Z Xach: it does AOT machine code compiling.
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2014-12-29T20:33:46Z ZombieChicken: for my meager understand, that is close enough
2014-12-29T20:34:00Z |3b|: but it does AOT compiling at runtime, including interactively
2014-12-29T20:34:15Z Shinmera: for some values of "runtime"
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2014-12-29T20:34:50Z |3b|: yeah, CL makes a lot of those terms confusing :/
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2014-12-29T20:35:18Z Shinmera: Or you could say that those terms are not well enough specified usually.
2014-12-29T20:35:28Z ZombieChicken: all I know is that how it runs the script is implementation dependant
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2014-12-29T20:35:47Z |3b|: it isn't the usual meaning of "JIT" where you start running a function and compile bits of it over time, but it isn't the AOT when you compile evrything before starting anything either
2014-12-29T20:35:51Z stassats`: the term "script" is even more confusing
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2014-12-29T20:36:37Z ZombieChicken: I think we all should have a rough idea on what 'script' means
2014-12-29T20:37:05Z Xach: For some value of rough
2014-12-29T20:37:22Z Shinmera: We like to play rough on terminology in #lisp
2014-12-29T20:37:47Z ZombieChicken: So the term 'rough' is implementation dependant?
2014-12-29T20:38:14Z Shinmera: More of unspecified.
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2014-12-29T20:39:25Z Hexstream: Script: "Code that exhibits more dynamic behavior than some impressionable people may expect."
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2014-12-29T20:42:00Z ZombieChicken: this is fun
2014-12-29T20:42:14Z ZombieChicken: because I'm a glutton for punishment, I'm trying to get sbcl to compile
2014-12-29T20:42:44Z Xach: it's pretty easy. just use "sh make.sh" and wait a few minutes. then you can "sh install.sh"
2014-12-29T20:42:54Z stassats`: you can even do ./make.sh
2014-12-29T20:43:00Z ZombieChicken: nope
2014-12-29T20:43:02Z stassats`: save on this typing
2014-12-29T20:43:21Z ZombieChicken: Something it requiring that I add -fPIC to the compile options, otherwise it errors out
2014-12-29T20:43:35Z stassats`: that doesn't seem right
2014-12-29T20:43:46Z axion: let me guess, gentoo?
2014-12-29T20:43:51Z |3b|: try building without strange CFLAGS and similar env vars
2014-12-29T20:43:51Z ZombieChicken: axion: yep
2014-12-29T20:43:55Z axion: sigh
2014-12-29T20:44:04Z ZombieChicken: well, funtoo, but close enough
2014-12-29T20:45:14Z nydel joined #lisp
2014-12-29T20:46:22Z stassats`: why does it ask for PIC?
2014-12-29T20:46:38Z ZombieChicken: I'm rerunning make.sh to get the error
2014-12-29T20:48:32Z ZombieChicken: https://bpaste.net/show/a644baf531a2
2014-12-29T20:49:16Z axion: perhaps post your toolchain env vars as well
2014-12-29T20:49:22Z stassats`: that doesn't make much sense
2014-12-29T20:49:44Z stassats`: it's not making a shared object
2014-12-29T20:50:04Z acieroid` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2014-12-29T20:50:43Z nikki93:  do you guys usually use a 'type-' prefix for accessors in your classes?
2014-12-29T20:50:45Z theseb: anyone here do lisp stuff on arduinos?
2014-12-29T20:50:52Z Xach: nikki93: no.
2014-12-29T20:50:53Z theseb: or any embedded
2014-12-29T20:50:54Z theseb: ?
2014-12-29T20:50:58Z stassats`: nikki93: nope
2014-12-29T20:51:03Z nikki93: k good
2014-12-29T20:51:25Z enitiz_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2014-12-29T20:51:27Z Xach: nikki93: i usually try to think about the set of functions i want to use to write my program, and later think about how to define classes to support those functions.
2014-12-29T20:51:48Z nikki93: my only concern was that it unnecessarily polymorphises methods where you have accessors on slots with same names across unrelated classes
2014-12-29T20:51:54Z stassats`: theseb: arduino is too low powered
2014-12-29T20:52:12Z nikki93: Xach: i see... yeah I come from a more oopy background I guess
2014-12-29T20:52:15Z Xach: nikki93: the function is the primary thing. if it does the same thing, it should have the same name, regardless of the object involved.
2014-12-29T20:52:20Z theseb: stassats`:  could you maybe just use a tiny subset of CL on it then?
2014-12-29T20:52:35Z Xach: nikki93: if there is a name conflict, one way to resolve is via packages, or "creative" naming.
2014-12-29T20:52:44Z nikki93: Xach: also in computer games you tend to think of objects first, then what they do. like 'this type of monster,' 'that type of key'
2014-12-29T20:52:44Z stassats`: theseb: they flew to the moon in the 60s
2014-12-29T20:53:00Z theseb: stassats`: but did they do it with lisp! ;)
2014-12-29T20:53:12Z Shinmera: theseb: There's http://www.cliki.net/Arduino%20Lisp fwiw.
2014-12-29T20:53:19Z stassats`: which means you can do a lot with limited resources, but how much does it cost?
2014-12-29T20:53:53Z theseb: stassats`: what kind of "cost" are you referring to?
2014-12-29T20:54:14Z theseb: stassats`: oh snap....that link compiles CL to C++ instead of to Arduino machine code
2014-12-29T20:54:32Z nikki93: so just finished practical common lisp (still have a bit of the mp3 project but wanna take a break and come back), reading on lisp like at chapter 11... do you guys like the keene book for CLOS?
2014-12-29T20:54:41Z nikki93: obv also just writing my own programs and just general hacking
2014-12-29T20:54:49Z theseb: stassats`: i presume you mean that to implement CL data structures in a 'duino you'll swamp the memory
2014-12-29T20:54:52Z Xach: nikki93: the keene book is good.
2014-12-29T20:55:25Z nikki93: Xach: i read on a comment on a hacker news post that the keene book ironically made someone use CLOS less cuz it showed them when it was meant to be used in a way... which I'm looking forward to
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2014-12-29T20:56:10Z stassats`: ZombieChicken: do you have -fPIE in your cflags?
2014-12-29T20:56:16Z ZombieChicken: -fPIC
2014-12-29T20:57:40Z stassats`: is it hardened gentoo?
2014-12-29T20:57:45Z ZombieChicken: no
2014-12-29T20:57:51Z stassats`: how do you know?
2014-12-29T20:58:32Z ZombieChicken: 1) It isn't Gentoo per say 2) I didn't use the hardened bins, nor most of the other crap
2014-12-29T20:58:35Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2014-12-29T20:59:20Z stassats`: can you paste gcc -v to http://paste.lisp.org
2014-12-29T20:59:50Z ZombieChicken: Wow
2014-12-29T21:00:04Z ZombieChicken: gcc -v apparently uses stderr for output
2014-12-29T21:00:47Z ZombieChicken: https://bpaste.net/show/776130f3c554
2014-12-29T21:01:07Z ZombieChicken: It claims to be Funtoo Hardened, which is weird
2014-12-29T21:01:19Z stassats`: --with-pkgversion='Funtoo Hardened 4.8.3, pie-0.5.9'
2014-12-29T21:01:32Z stassats`: ok, when i pass -pie to the linker, i can reproduce the problem here
2014-12-29T21:01:38Z stassats`: your hardened thing defaults to -pie
2014-12-29T21:01:52Z ZombieChicken: This is not a hardened install. I'll have to bug the funtoo guys about that
2014-12-29T21:04:24Z stassats`: there seems to be no way of disabling this
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2014-12-29T21:04:49Z stassats`: and sbcl doesn't really benefit from a relocatable runtime
2014-12-29T21:05:11Z ZombieChicken: seems I did enable the hardened mixin
2014-12-29T21:05:15Z stassats`: ZombieChicken: after you added -fPIC, did it build successfully?
2014-12-29T21:05:23Z ZombieChicken: stassats`: recompiling right now
2014-12-29T21:05:36Z ZombieChicken: there are several makefiles to muck with
2014-12-29T21:05:38Z stassats`: and after you compile run the tests and tell me the results
2014-12-29T21:06:38Z ZombieChicken: I added it to tools-for-build/Makefile
2014-12-29T21:07:10Z stassats`: that's the wrong place
2014-12-29T21:07:13Z ZombieChicken: still failed, so I'm trying to find out which of the 21 Makefiles need a CFLAG change
2014-12-29T21:07:28Z stassats`: ZombieChicken: src/runtime/Config.x86-64-linux
2014-12-29T21:08:23Z ZombieChicken: okay, rebuilding yet again
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2014-12-29T21:11:16Z ZombieChicken: failed again. Made another change to Config.x86-64-linux and trying again
2014-12-29T21:11:34Z stassats`: just make CFLAGS += -fno-omit-frame-pointer -fPIC
2014-12-29T21:11:46Z ZombieChicken: I did
2014-12-29T21:12:07Z stassats`: don't redo ./make.sh for now, just go to src/runtime and do make
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2014-12-29T21:13:00Z ZombieChicken: instantly errors out; same error
2014-12-29T21:13:16Z stassats`: remove all the .o files first
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2014-12-29T21:14:16Z ZombieChicken: rm *.o; make clean; make -> Same error. the cc -g blahblahblah lines DO list -fPIC, which is interesting
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2014-12-29T21:15:28Z ZombieChicken: seems to be erroring on x86-64-assem.o
2014-12-29T21:15:53Z yenda1: is there an active project similar to climacs ?
2014-12-29T21:16:01Z pnpuff: ZombieChicken: try #funtooas last resource  :)
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2014-12-29T21:18:07Z stassats`: ZombieChicken: what if you do LINKFLAGS += -Wl,--export-dynamic,-nopie instead?
2014-12-29T21:19:06Z ZombieChicken: same error on the same file
2014-12-29T21:20:24Z stassats`: well, i guess i need a virtualbox image of a hardened [ge|fu]ntoo
2014-12-29T21:21:32Z ZombieChicken: I just deleted the whole dir and started over with a fresh set of sources
2014-12-29T21:21:43Z ZombieChicken: made the change, now I'm running make.sh again
2014-12-29T21:21:49Z ZombieChicken: just in case
2014-12-29T21:22:27Z akkad: name-conflicts in IRONCLAD:NULL, COMMON-LISP:NULL, never seen this
2014-12-29T21:22:50Z ZombieChicken: okay, this is weird
2014-12-29T21:23:02Z stassats`: akkad: don't use the package ironclad
2014-12-29T21:23:14Z ZombieChicken: that is interesting
2014-12-29T21:23:49Z akkad: stassats`: thanks
2014-12-29T21:23:52Z ZombieChicken: it complains that x86-64-assem.o didn't use -fPIC to compile, yet 3 lines up it clearly shows -fPIC in the option list for that very file
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2014-12-29T21:24:42Z ZombieChicken: trying -nopie w/o -fPIC now in a clean dir
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2014-12-29T21:25:00Z stassats`: openbsd has CFLAGS += -fno-pie LINKFLAGS += -nopie LDFLAGS += -nopie
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2014-12-29T21:25:48Z stassats`: ZombieChicken: can you copy the parts with "ifneq .. endif" from Config.generic-openbsd?
2014-12-29T21:25:57Z stassats`: as the sole change
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2014-12-29T21:27:44Z ZombieChicken: done; compiling now
2014-12-29T21:27:54Z ZombieChicken: I grabbed those exact 5 lines
2014-12-29T21:28:07Z stassats`: and nothing else is modified?
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2014-12-29T21:28:23Z ZombieChicken: nope
2014-12-29T21:28:42Z ZombieChicken: hell, I'm deleting the dir and unpacking the tar archive every time I'm recompiling this
2014-12-29T21:28:47Z ZombieChicken: just to be sure
2014-12-29T21:29:07Z stassats`: that's not neccessary
2014-12-29T21:29:08Z ZombieChicken: wow
2014-12-29T21:29:10Z ZombieChicken: Same error
2014-12-29T21:29:24Z ZombieChicken: I know it is overkill, but it doesn't take that much time
2014-12-29T21:29:25Z stassats`: well, now it's time to throw your compute out of the window
2014-12-29T21:29:41Z stassats`: or that's what i would have done by now
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2014-12-29T21:30:15Z ZombieChicken: removed the conditionals
2014-12-29T21:30:34Z ZombieChicken: /that/ gave me some diffrent output
2014-12-29T21:30:42Z stassats`: does gcc -dumpspecs 2>/dev/null | grep -e -nopie succeed?
2014-12-29T21:30:55Z ZombieChicken: running make.sh again
2014-12-29T21:31:02Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2014-12-29T21:31:07Z ZombieChicken: it errored on etags not found
2014-12-29T21:31:20Z stassats`: that shouldn't matter
2014-12-29T21:31:34Z ZombieChicken: stassats`: I can be amazingly patient when I need to be
2014-12-29T21:31:45Z ZombieChicken: sometimes, anyways
2014-12-29T21:31:48Z stassats`: you're a zombie, figures
2014-12-29T21:31:57Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2014-12-29T21:33:07Z ZombieChicken: I'm going to get some caffine. brb
2014-12-29T21:34:20Z ZombieChicken: I think it has passed that point
2014-12-29T21:34:43Z ZombieChicken: compile hasn't finished, but I'm into the x-compiling portion
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2014-12-29T21:35:02Z stassats`: that comes after the runtime compilation
2014-12-29T21:35:16Z stassats`: ZombieChicken: paste gcc -dumpspecs
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2014-12-29T21:35:30Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2014-12-29T21:36:42Z ZombieChicken: https://bpaste.net/show/2a65469c9472
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2014-12-29T21:37:37Z stassats`: ok, it needs to grep for "nopie", not "-nopie"
2014-12-29T21:38:09Z stassats`: will commit the change after the release
2014-12-29T21:38:30Z stassats`: i want a pie now
2014-12-29T21:39:41Z ZombieChicken: sb-bsd-sockets failed to build or pass their self-tests
2014-12-29T21:40:07Z stassats`: paste output/building-contrib.sb-bsd-sockets
2014-12-29T21:40:58Z ZombieChicken: stassats`: Your one of the devs?
2014-12-29T21:41:15Z stassats`: i guess so
2014-12-29T21:41:21Z ZombieChicken: https://bpaste.net/show/ffc83331cc82 <- the output you asked for
2014-12-29T21:41:45Z stassats`: you don't have ipv6 support
2014-12-29T21:42:12Z ZombieChicken: I don't?
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2014-12-29T21:44:26Z stassats`: you can just do obj/asdf-cache/sb-bsd-sockets/test-passed.test-report
2014-12-29T21:44:36Z stassats`: and ignore the failing ipv6
2014-12-29T21:45:59Z ZombieChicken: I don't see test-passed.test-report anywhere
2014-12-29T21:46:11Z stassats`: i forgot the word "touch"
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2014-12-29T21:46:49Z ZombieChicken: I thought that was what you meant, but you can never be too careful
2014-12-29T21:46:51Z nyef: Hello all.
2014-12-29T21:47:05Z stassats`: ZombieChicken: does ifconfig look like it has ipv6 stuff in it?
2014-12-29T21:47:39Z ZombieChicken: stassats`: I don't use ipv6 anywhere, and no, not outright
2014-12-29T21:47:56Z stassats`: did you build with noipv6 options?
2014-12-29T21:48:02Z stassats`: your kernel
2014-12-29T21:48:49Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2014-12-29T21:49:14Z ZombieChicken: it has ipv6, and emerge --info does list ipv6 in USE flags
2014-12-29T21:49:48Z stassats`: cat /proc/sys/net/ipv6/conf/all/disable_ipv6 ?
2014-12-29T21:50:15Z ZombieChicken: 1
2014-12-29T21:50:32Z stassats`: ok, there you go, but you don't have to mind it
2014-12-29T21:50:48Z stassats`: when i put 1 there, i can reproduce the test failure and i will use it that to make it more robust
2014-12-29T21:51:02Z ZombieChicken: k
2014-12-29T21:51:15Z ZombieChicken: good to know this is being helpful overall
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2014-12-29T21:57:05Z stassats`: in fact, i can commit that test change right now
2014-12-29T21:57:21Z stassats`: since it's a test, it wouldn't affect the freeze period
2014-12-29T21:57:35Z ZombieChicken: Glad to be of help
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2014-12-29T22:00:17Z stassats`: ok, done
2014-12-29T22:00:25Z stassats`: the pie stuff will have to stay in the sky
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2014-12-29T22:02:47Z ZombieChicken: ah
2014-12-29T22:03:25Z ZombieChicken: Hrm. I deleted the files
2014-12-29T22:03:35Z stassats`: which files?
2014-12-29T22:03:50Z ZombieChicken: I was going to pastebin the Config.x86-86-linux file I had made
2014-12-29T22:04:05Z stassats`: did you just remove the conditional?
2014-12-29T22:04:15Z ZombieChicken: yes
2014-12-29T22:04:30Z stassats`: i will change do s/-nopie/nopie/, base on your dumpspec output
2014-12-29T22:04:37Z ZombieChicken: ok
2014-12-29T22:04:48Z ZombieChicken: just wanted to make sure you had that
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2014-12-29T22:05:20Z stassats`: but since it affects non hardened gentoo gccs, nopie is not a valid option here, i can't commit it right now
2014-12-29T22:05:43Z akkad: is there a way to get bordeaux-threads:make-thread to pass arguments to a function? or a portable equivalent to it?
2014-12-29T22:05:56Z stassats`: akkad: closures
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2014-12-29T22:09:01Z akkad: mp: makes it sooo easy
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2014-12-29T22:14:09Z joshe: stassats`: there's some -nopie detection code in the openbsd Config makefile fragment that could be useful if other OSes are enabling PIE by default
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2014-12-29T22:14:34Z stassats`: joshe: you didn't read the whole log
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2014-12-29T22:15:47Z joshe: indeed I did not, I just saw something about gcc and -nopie
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2014-12-29T22:23:56Z akkad: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144965 assuming that closure is correct?
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2014-12-29T22:27:18Z _death: yes, but maybe you want something like lparallel
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2014-12-29T22:29:14Z arnaudga: hello, I would like to pass a list to a function with (apply #'myfunction mylist) and I always got a message like " Too many args for myfunction ". Any advices ? (I'm newbee in lisp)
2014-12-29T22:29:48Z _death: why do you apply instead of just (myfunction mylist)
2014-12-29T22:29:49Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2014-12-29T22:30:05Z _death: apply spreads the list into arguments
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2014-12-29T22:32:48Z arnaudga: When I just do (myfunction mylist), the function got a NIL value. I don't understand why
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2014-12-29T22:33:51Z _death: maybe mylist's value is nil, or you're misinterpreting the situation.. can't know without more details
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2014-12-29T22:35:30Z arnaudga: I have tested mylist before and after myfunction, and it'n not null, but ok, may be I corrupted myfunction
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2014-12-29T22:46:02Z ZombieChicken: Is there a reference for the functions in CL online?
2014-12-29T22:46:20Z ZombieChicken: that is useful for a newbie
2014-12-29T22:46:28Z Shinmera: clhs
2014-12-29T22:46:40Z Shinmera: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm
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2014-12-29T22:48:58Z akkad: stassats`: you on gittip?
2014-12-29T22:49:23Z stassats`: don't know what it is, which means not
2014-12-29T22:49:53Z akkad: https://gratipay.com/
2014-12-29T22:49:58Z akkad: Hans and Xach are on there
2014-12-29T22:50:17Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-12-29T22:50:22Z stassats`: don't think that i'm interested
2014-12-29T22:50:30Z akkad: cool
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2014-12-29T22:51:34Z Xach: I am not on there intentionally.
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2014-12-29T22:52:51Z nyef: ... Only 3,000 users? Doesn't look like it's worth the bother.
2014-12-29T22:53:07Z stassats`: that's why there's only 3000 users
2014-12-29T22:53:14Z H4ns: i'm not "on" there either
2014-12-29T22:53:29Z nyef: Yes, it's called a self-fulfilling prophecy, or a confidence game.
2014-12-29T22:53:30Z H4ns: of the 3000, 2800 probably don't know that they are users.
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2014-12-29T23:02:42Z akkad wonders where all that $$ went
2014-12-29T23:03:16Z Hexstream: ZombieChicken: The CLHS is a great authoritative reference. http://www.hexstreamsoft.com/articles/notes-tips-standard-common-lisp-symbols/namespaces/operators/ and related pages may help you better find related operators and such. I made it in large part to help newbies in particular. Hope it's helpful!
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2014-12-29T23:04:09Z Hexstream: (Go to the index of that article to see what pages are ready (green) and which are not (red), this is still a work in progress.)
2014-12-29T23:04:46Z ZombieChicken: Thanks
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2014-12-29T23:38:59Z yenda: Hi, I have been reading and learning about CL for the past 2 weeks and I'm willing to make a step foward by writing my own first program in lisp. It will be a basic website with a form and it will send the answers via email. The form fields are described in a json file. I will had more functionalities later but I'll start with that. Does it seems like a good idea to do that using the followings : woo as an httpserver, clack as a web app
2014-12-29T23:38:59Z yenda: env. Do I even need a web framework at all at this point (I spotted ningle and caveman as potential candidates) ? Is it how people do webdev in lisp noway
2014-12-29T23:39:09Z yenda: da
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2014-12-29T23:39:26Z yenda: s/noway/nowadays?
2014-12-29T23:40:46Z Shinmera: clack is a web framework of sorts already.
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2014-12-29T23:41:22Z yenda: are you using it ?
2014-12-29T23:41:25Z Shinmera: No
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2014-12-29T23:43:38Z Shinmera: There are evidently people who do, but I am not one of them.
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2014-12-29T23:45:56Z akkad: after sbcl/clozure what's the next most popular opensource cl?
2014-12-29T23:47:00Z akkad: clack is pretty nice
2014-12-29T23:47:02Z Shinmera: I don't know for sure, but I'd guess ECL or Clisp
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2014-12-29T23:48:39Z akkad: abcl you say?
2014-12-29T23:48:52Z Shinmera: Can you even read
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2014-12-29T23:51:05Z Ober: Shinmera: he most likely has you on ignore
2014-12-29T23:52:04Z Ober: akkad: try ecl or clisp, maybe cmucl?
2014-12-29T23:52:04Z Shinmera: Ober: I don't know that I ever did anything warranting an ignore, but ok.
2014-12-29T23:52:33Z akkad: Ober: thanks
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2014-12-29T23:56:23Z Zhivago: Shinmera: The subliterate rarely require reason.
2014-12-29T23:58:21Z Shinmera: Ignoring is also dumb even if you do have a good reason because it is only user-bound, not context-bound, so you'll get confusing chunks of conversations.
2014-12-29T23:58:31Z Shinmera: But anyway.
2014-12-29T23:59:12Z Shinmera: Good night, #lisp-ers
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2014-12-30T02:17:57Z akkad: or perhaps it was an attempt at humor.
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2014-12-30T03:19:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-12-30T03:27:17Z akkad: hi beach
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2014-12-30T03:27:35Z theos: hey
2014-12-30T03:28:01Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2014-12-30T03:36:08Z ProbonoBonobo just finished Chapter 3 of SICP and could use some advice
2014-12-30T03:36:46Z hagirikan is now known as hagiri
2014-12-30T03:36:56Z nyef: ProbonoBonobo: You're aware that SICP uses Scheme, while this is a Common Lisp channel, right?
2014-12-30T03:37:52Z ProbonoBonobo: Yeah, I think the question I have is a little more universal to computing generally
2014-12-30T03:38:00Z nyef: Fair enough, then.
2014-12-30T03:38:08Z ProbonoBonobo: My final project for the course was to implement a very retro-throwback text adventure game in an OOP style, which was difficult and also very fun
2014-12-30T03:38:54Z ProbonoBonobo: I'm having a peek now at the 4th chapter, and I think I want to have a better handle on OOP programming before I go on. Any advice?
2014-12-30T03:39:14Z ProbonoBonobo: I've been taking a look at the Paul Graham book, I wonder if that might be a good book for me to read at this point
2014-12-30T03:39:29Z nyef: Which Paul Graham book?
2014-12-30T03:39:33Z ProbonoBonobo: (By Paul Graham book, I mean 'On Lisp')
2014-12-30T03:39:37Z nyef: Ah.
2014-12-30T03:40:07Z Hexstream: ProbonoBonobo: The Paul Graham books tend to completely ignore CLOS I think...
2014-12-30T03:40:38Z nyef: I can't really advise you on the whole Paul Graham thing, other than to note that Paul Graham is known to not actually like Common Lisp.
2014-12-30T03:40:46Z nyef: minion: Graham crackers?
2014-12-30T03:40:47Z minion: Graham crackers: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html
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2014-12-30T03:41:02Z nyef: Ah, that's for the other book.
2014-12-30T03:41:25Z ProbonoBonobo: I think the part of Scheme that's most elusive to me right now is the macro concept. That's related to OOP directly, right?
2014-12-30T03:41:52Z ProbonoBonobo: And I noticed he takes up macros in the introduction to 'On Lisp'
2014-12-30T03:42:01Z nyef: No, macros and OOP are completely orthogonal.
2014-12-30T03:42:12Z ProbonoBonobo: Gotcha. Thanks for the correction
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2014-12-30T03:44:11Z nyef: The Lisp language family had macros before it had OO facilities, and several OO languages don't have macros.
2014-12-30T03:47:11Z beach: nyef: I stumbled upon the following problem: If Emacs used CLIM, then it would issue an ACCEPT in order to prompt for something in the minibuffer.  But Emacs allows the user to switch buffers while in the minibuffer.  A simple implementation of ACCEPT would block the command loop until the input is complete.
2014-12-30T03:47:24Z beach: nyef: What control structure would allow the behavior of Emacs?
2014-12-30T03:47:33Z ProbonoBonobo: I see. The reason I asked is, we've implemented objects in Scheme with and without a type system macro, and without the macro the Scheme appears to resemble a glorified assembly language
2014-12-30T03:47:54Z ProbonoBonobo: *scheme object, that is
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2014-12-30T03:48:21Z nyef: beach: Recursive invocation of the minibuffer is forbidden, right?
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2014-12-30T03:48:33Z beach: Yes, as I recall.
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2014-12-30T03:49:34Z ProbonoBonobo: But then we quickly moved from the ugly way of defining OOP in Scheme to the more readable, macro-based way without understanding how it is that the low-level approach is truly isomorphic
2014-12-30T03:50:20Z nyef: beach: Rely on there being an activation gesture for the minibuffer (input editor), and have an editing command that starts a fresh invocation of the emacs main loop, with a loop-exit condition that returns to the input editor when the user transitions to the mini-buffer again.
2014-12-30T03:50:30Z beach: ProbonoBonobo: I suggest you move to Common Lisp instead.  It has a standardized object-oriented subsystem called CLOS.
2014-12-30T03:50:43Z beach: ProbonoBonobo: Then your questions/remarks would also be on topic.
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2014-12-30T03:51:18Z ProbonoBonobo: @Beach: any book recommendations?
2014-12-30T03:51:38Z beach: ProbonoBonobo: Most people here would recommend "Practical Common Lisp".
2014-12-30T03:51:48Z nyef: minion: That-dead-sexy-book?
2014-12-30T03:51:48Z minion: That-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2014-12-30T03:52:13Z beach: ProbonoBonobo: For object-orientation in Common Lisp: Sonja Keene "Object-oriented programming in Common Lisp"
2014-12-30T03:52:20Z hagiri: lol
2014-12-30T03:52:22Z hagiri: OO :P
2014-12-30T03:52:30Z hagiri: in lisp
2014-12-30T03:52:33Z hagiri: very cool
2014-12-30T03:52:34Z ProbonoBonobo: "That-dead-sexy-book" quite the endorsement!
2014-12-30T03:54:05Z beach: nyef: My problem is that it is possible to switch back to the buffer from which the minibuffer ACCEPT was issued and start using editing commands.  This either means that this buffer has two command loops, one of which is blocked, or that the minibuffer ACCEPT is not blocking and uses a different control structure.
2014-12-30T03:54:54Z nyef: beach: The former. The "blocked" command loop entered ACCEPT, an editing command started the second command loop, all on the same stack.
2014-12-30T03:54:55Z beach: hagiri: Common Lisp has the most sophisticated object-oriented subsystem of all languages, at least as far as I know.
2014-12-30T03:55:48Z beach: nyef: Thanks.  That's enough for me to contemplate for a while.
2014-12-30T03:56:52Z nyef: beach: You'll have an interesting time trying to kick off the second command loop without the first one or the input editor mucking things up, but it should be doable.
2014-12-30T03:57:02Z ProbonoBonobo: @hagiri: The leitmotif of the class I took was how to construct an object-orientated language from scratch, using only the basic primitives of the language. Super fun!
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2014-12-30T03:57:15Z hagiri: Wow, a programming language riding artificial intelligence and on top of object-oriented? What guy crazy! Surely the guy program a quiet robot!
2014-12-30T03:58:01Z Hexstream: beach: CLOS is so deeply interwoven into Common Lisp that I'd hesitate to call it a "subsystem".
2014-12-30T03:58:02Z nyef: And this way you don't have to try and co-routine the input editor or anything crazy like that.
2014-12-30T03:58:25Z nyef: Hexstream: It is and it isn't. Remember, it was originally a bolt-on, and wasn't in the '84 standard.
2014-12-30T03:58:31Z beach: Hexstream: Forgive me, but I am not quite awake yet.
2014-12-30T03:58:48Z hagiri: ProbonoBonobo,
2014-12-30T03:58:49Z hagiri: I am Brazilian, forgive me for my poor English, I'm beginning to program in C with the help of a friend oo even gave me some very basic tips on lisp, to be more direct, he told me about the scheme!
2014-12-30T03:59:07Z hagiri: drracket or racket :P
2014-12-30T03:59:10Z hagiri: :P
2014-12-30T03:59:39Z nyef: ... And you're off-topic again.
2014-12-30T04:01:41Z ProbonoBonobo: So much for the 'Lisp family of languages' I've heard so much about.
2014-12-30T04:01:42Z Hexstream: nyef: We are post-MOP, after all. :)
2014-12-30T04:01:59Z akkad: mop as in the network boot protocol?
2014-12-30T04:02:08Z Hexstream: minion: mop?
2014-12-30T04:02:08Z minion: mop: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/mop
2014-12-30T04:02:10Z beach: hagiri: Since this is #lisp, I will give some advice that is different from that of your friend:  Learn Common Lisp and be amazed of its power in object-oriented programming.
2014-12-30T04:02:12Z Hexstream: Dang.
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2014-12-30T04:02:21Z Hexstream: Meta-Object Protocol. A very incredible thing.
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2014-12-30T04:02:59Z beach: ProbonoBonobo: It just so happens that the name #lisp was taken by people who are interested in Common Lisp.  It's just a name.  Get over it.
2014-12-30T04:04:44Z hagiri: beach commom lisp and scheme diferents?
2014-12-30T04:04:45Z hagiri: ..
2014-12-30T04:05:16Z akkad: if you want to funcall a function stored in a variable, is (funcall (intern var)) the same as in elisp?
2014-12-30T04:05:22Z Hexstream: Yes, moreover Common Lisp is a specific lisp dialect whereas there are several different dialects of Scheme.
2014-12-30T04:05:28Z beach: hagiri: Not very many things in common except the surface syntax.  So too much for me to list here.  You would have to read up on it.
2014-12-30T04:05:48Z nyef: Hexstream: It's two specific lisp dialects, technically: The '84 and '94 standards.
2014-12-30T04:06:13Z akkad: ansi is the 94?
2014-12-30T04:06:38Z Hexstream: nyef: I think it's safe to say that "Common Lisp" refers to the 1994 one unless specified otherwise...
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2014-12-30T04:07:02Z beach: Seriously?  Is this going to turn into a debate?
2014-12-30T04:07:21Z nyef: These days, yes, typically we mean the ANSI standard, but remembering that there IS a prior standard sometimes helps.
2014-12-30T04:07:49Z akkad: for those of us still running franz on netbsd on vax, remember that :P
2014-12-30T04:08:44Z beach: SICL LOOP passes basically all the tests for FOR/AS-ARITHMETIC in the test suite by Paul Dietz!  Yay!
2014-12-30T04:08:52Z nyef: beach: Congratulations.
2014-12-30T04:09:02Z beach: Thanks!
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2014-12-30T04:09:35Z beach: ... including FOR NIL FROM 1 TO 5 ... :)
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2014-12-30T04:12:06Z Hexstream: beach: Wouldn't it be better to throw an error in such circumstance, or does the standard actually mandate that it be supported?... (Is that NIL actually an empty destructuring list?...)
2014-12-30T04:12:22Z beach: Hexstream: The latter.
2014-12-30T04:12:36Z beach: But I still have no sign of life from Paul Dietz, so I don't know whether the ANSI test suite is maintained and if so who the maintainer is.
2014-12-30T04:13:14Z Hexstream: beach: Did you try his twitter?
2014-12-30T04:13:15Z beach: The test suite for LOOP contains DO NIL which is not allowed, because DO takes only compound forms.
2014-12-30T04:13:17Z nyef: If necessary, fork the version you have available until you can find an upstream maintainer?
2014-12-30T04:13:23Z beach: Hexstream: No I didn't.
2014-12-30T04:14:18Z beach: nyef: I am considering putting it on GitHub, but the absence of copyright notice and license means I have no right to do anything with it.
2014-12-30T04:14:27Z nyef: Ah, damn.
2014-12-30T04:15:07Z beach: I am no doubt being too paranoid here, but...
2014-12-30T04:15:22Z beach: Better be on the safe side.
2014-12-30T04:15:28Z nyef: Mmm.
2014-12-30T04:16:16Z beach: I guess I probably wouldn't be sued though.  In the worst case, I would be asked to remove it.
2014-12-30T04:17:08Z beach: It is such a valuable resource, I would hate to see it lost or become useless for other reasons.
2014-12-30T04:18:11Z hagiri: beach, thanks, Only one problem, I have stuff about lisp, you know any good?
2014-12-30T04:19:06Z beach: hagiri: What kind of "stuff" are we talking about here?  Books?  Common Lisp implementations?  Anything else?
2014-12-30T04:20:44Z hagiri: Now, i'm newbie, lisp for beginners!
2014-12-30T04:20:45Z hagiri: =)
2014-12-30T04:21:18Z beach: hagiri: For people who already know some programming, most people here would recommend "Practical Common Lisp"
2014-12-30T04:21:19Z Hexstream: beach: Hopefully this does the trick: https://twitter.com/HexstreamSoft/status/549782018067025921
2014-12-30T04:22:01Z beach: Hexstream: Thanks!
2014-12-30T04:22:24Z Zamenhof: if I might chime in -- for someone totally new to programming -- Winston and Horn's LISP is pretty good.  First half is the language
2014-12-30T04:22:31Z Zamenhof: second half is classic AI algos.
2014-12-30T04:22:48Z Hexstream: I was actually wondering if I was conflating two things which the "ANSI test suite" and Paul Dietz' test suite would be. Seems not. :)
2014-12-30T04:23:28Z Hexstream: Ohhhhhhh, "the ANSI" test suite as in "it tests for ANSI compliance", not "it's standardized by ANSI". Eh.
2014-12-30T04:23:43Z nyef: IIRC, I have a pre-'94 edition of Winston and Horn.
2014-12-30T04:23:55Z hagiri: I'll see about the same scheme, thank beach!
2014-12-30T04:23:57Z hagiri: =D
2014-12-30T04:25:52Z beach: Zamenhof: I have the first and second editions.  Both are quite outdated.
2014-12-30T04:26:37Z hagiri: Hexstream, lol, all for beginners?
2014-12-30T04:26:40Z hagiri: :P
2014-12-30T04:27:04Z hagiri: beach, o/
2014-12-30T04:27:05Z hagiri: ;D
2014-12-30T04:27:18Z beach: hagiri: Too much noise for this channel.
2014-12-30T04:27:25Z rme: The 3rd edition of Winston and Horn seems quite OK.
2014-12-30T04:28:26Z akkad: #clnoobs is a nice channel
2014-12-30T04:28:27Z hagiri: beach,
2014-12-30T04:28:27Z hagiri: As well, a lot of noise?
2014-12-30T04:29:30Z beach: hagiri: Things like :P, o/, and ;D are noise.  Use them only occasionally.
2014-12-30T04:29:48Z Zamenhof: I was talking about the thrid edition.  Touretsky's book is good for beginners too.  We are talking about someone new to programming.  Otherwise PCL is good.
2014-12-30T04:30:29Z beach: Zamenhof: OK.  I am not sure why I don't have the third edition.
2014-12-30T04:31:25Z hagiri: beach, hmm, ok!
2014-12-30T04:31:28Z hagiri: ..
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2014-12-30T05:04:33Z nyef: On the nq-clim front, still no visible progress. I'm currently thinking that the closest big win is to get the application-frame/frame-manager bit into play, with a couple of event-handling fixes and a small amount of the layout protocol.
2014-12-30T05:05:52Z nyef: Basically, try to make the clx-interface file largely redundant by implementing more of CLIM.
2014-12-30T05:09:44Z beach: nyef: Keep us posted.  I am very interested in what you will accomplish.
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2014-12-30T05:13:55Z nyef: Will do.
2014-12-30T05:14:05Z nyef: I'm somewhat curious, myself. (-:
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2014-12-30T05:17:16Z akkad: how do you return the canonical symbol of a function whose name is stored in a variable?
2014-12-30T05:18:18Z akkad: e.g. (defun foo () (format t "hello world~%") ) (setq bar "foo")(funcall (intern bar))
2014-12-30T05:19:07Z Hexstream: clhs function-lambda-expression
2014-12-30T05:19:15Z Hexstream: Uhh.
2014-12-30T05:19:33Z akkad: found it Function FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION in clhs.org
2014-12-30T05:19:34Z akkad:  
2014-12-30T05:19:55Z ahungry_: anyone use caveman2 at all?  It creates a bunch of skeleton files to begin with, do you just add routes under src/web.lisp and whatever other custom code in src/something-here.lisp as well?
2014-12-30T05:20:00Z Hexstream: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm
2014-12-30T05:20:27Z akkad: I've got the whole thing in an org-mode file, makes it easier in emacs org-drill etc
2014-12-30T05:20:58Z Hexstream: akkad: You do use Slime? It features handy functions to quickly get at what you want in the CLHS.
2014-12-30T05:21:18Z akkad: yes, still learning all the bells and whistles
2014-12-30T05:21:37Z Hexstream: http://www.hexstreamsoft.com/libraries/clhs/#slime-lookup-commands
2014-12-30T05:21:39Z akkad: was trying symbol-function/intern etc
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2014-12-30T05:24:24Z akkad: Hexstream: thanks
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2014-12-30T05:28:48Z akkad: yeah that won't do what I need. function dispatch based on argv
2014-12-30T05:30:58Z nyef: akkad: (let ((bar "foo")) (funcall (string-upcase bar))).
2014-12-30T05:32:54Z akkad: nyef The value "FOO" is not of type (OR FUNCTION SYMBOL).
2014-12-30T05:33:14Z nyef: Err... (funcall (intern (string-upcase bar))), my bad.
2014-12-30T05:33:16Z akkad: yet (foo) works
2014-12-30T05:33:33Z akkad: ok so it is (funcall (intern ...
2014-12-30T05:33:43Z nyef: Though, really, if you're starting from ARGV, either go the full route of (funcall (with-input-from-string (*standard-input* bar) (read))) or acknowledge that inputs from ARGV are not to be trusted and just have some sort of explicit mapping of ARGV value to function (or function name).
2014-12-30T05:34:12Z akkad: nyef: that worked, thanks
2014-12-30T05:34:37Z akkad: understood. thanks
2014-12-30T05:35:22Z akkad: I'll disable the reader macro before eval of untrusted data :P
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2014-12-30T05:35:53Z Hexstream: Oops, sorry, completely misunderstood the initial question. Had nothing to do with FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION...
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2014-12-30T05:36:23Z nyef: Hexstream: Yeah, and has little to do with functions, really.
2014-12-30T05:36:24Z akkad: odd string-upcase changes the results
2014-12-30T05:36:41Z nyef: akkad: Has to do with a little concept known as READTABLE-CASE.
2014-12-30T05:36:58Z akkad: nice will rtfm on that
2014-12-30T05:37:02Z nyef: clhs readtable-case
2014-12-30T05:37:05Z nyef: Hrm.
2014-12-30T05:37:18Z nyef: Either that's not quite the right term, or something is wrong with specbot.
2014-12-30T05:37:36Z Hexstream: specbot is not in the channel.
2014-12-30T05:37:43Z nyef: Yeah, just got that far.
2014-12-30T05:37:48Z nyef: Could be both, of course.
2014-12-30T05:37:50Z akkad: it's thre in clhs
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2014-12-30T05:39:56Z akkad: ahh *READTABLE*
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2014-12-30T05:47:49Z nyef: Okay, time I got some sleep.
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2014-12-30T06:42:59Z mrkkrp: is (ldb (byte 1 n) x) normal way to check if N bit is set?
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2014-12-30T06:43:16Z Bicyclidine: mrkkrp: logbitp
2014-12-30T06:44:36Z mrkkrp: Bicyclidine, thanks.. never worked with bits in CL before :)
2014-12-30T06:45:25Z beach: mrkkrp: The bit functions work on bignums too.  Common Lisp has much better bit handling than in C.
2014-12-30T06:47:12Z mrkkrp: beach, ok, but now I'm just converting C int with flags into list of readable keywords
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2014-12-30T07:02:38Z beach: Time to get to work!
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2014-12-30T07:05:08Z akkad: damn uncommonlisp.com is down
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2014-12-30T07:30:51Z mrkkrp: where can I find complete CL ANSI standard online?
2014-12-30T07:31:00Z Bicyclidine: usually we use the hyperspec
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2014-12-30T07:31:02Z stassats: clhs 1.1
2014-12-30T07:31:02Z Bicyclidine: clhs logbitp
2014-12-30T07:31:09Z stassats: oh joy
2014-12-30T07:31:16Z stassats: minion: what did you do with specbot?
2014-12-30T07:31:16Z minion: yes, i do with specbot
2014-12-30T07:31:22Z Bicyclidine: it's not the ansi standard, but on the bright side it's online, has hyperlinks, and doesn't cost hundreds of dollars
2014-12-30T07:31:30Z mrkkrp: I need to read section 3.2.2.3
2014-12-30T07:31:58Z Bicyclidine: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm have fun
2014-12-30T07:32:04Z mrkkrp: I know and use hyperspec for long time
2014-12-30T07:32:53Z mrkkrp: actually I've downloaded it and I can invoke it from Emacs
2014-12-30T07:33:04Z akkad: "exit was left out of the spec so there's a thousand ways to exit"
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2014-12-30T07:33:24Z mrkkrp: but compiler says something about section 3.2.2.3, so I want to take a look
2014-12-30T07:33:44Z Bicyclidine: 3.2.2.3 is in the hyperspec and should clear it up
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2014-12-30T07:33:59Z mrkkrp: let's see...
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2014-12-30T08:03:33Z mrkkrp: in what order macros are extanded in CL? inner first or outer first?
2014-12-30T08:03:58Z Bicyclidine: outer
2014-12-30T08:04:21Z mrkkrp: thanks
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2014-12-30T08:05:51Z stassats: think about it
2014-12-30T08:05:58Z akkad: can a cond only match the first one?
2014-12-30T08:07:21Z akkad: clhs says yes
2014-12-30T08:07:33Z stassats: akkad: what do you mean?
2014-12-30T08:07:35Z hitecnologys: akkad: COND always matches one.
2014-12-30T08:07:56Z stassats: hitecnologys: it can match none
2014-12-30T08:08:26Z hitecnologys: stassats: right. One or less.
2014-12-30T08:08:45Z stassats: minus one?
2014-12-30T08:08:51Z akkad: I was looking for a "otherwise" in cond
2014-12-30T08:09:12Z akkad: derp (T ...
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2014-12-30T08:10:13Z hitecnologys: stassats: more or equal to zero and less or equal to one. Satisfied now?
2014-12-30T08:10:30Z stassats: hitecnologys: 0.5?
2014-12-30T08:10:57Z hitecnologys: stassats: and integer.
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2014-12-30T08:40:48Z mrkkrp: I know that sbcl considers defining constant a error, but why when I asdf:load-system some system that has defconstants in it, sbcl says that I'm redefining constants?
2014-12-30T08:41:05Z mrkkrp: *redefining constant..
2014-12-30T08:41:18Z mrkkrp: *an
2014-12-30T08:45:00Z hitecnologys: mrkkrp: because ASDF might load the same code twice, which reads to redefinition. Constants can not be changed hence an error is signaled.
2014-12-30T08:46:28Z mrkkrp: that's what I thought.. how should it be handled?
2014-12-30T08:46:40Z Shinmera: Not using defconstant.
2014-12-30T08:46:43Z hitecnologys: You can write a macro that will check if constant is already defined.
2014-12-30T08:46:56Z mrkkrp: well..
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2014-12-30T08:47:25Z hitecnologys: There's DEFINE-CONSTANT in alexandria.
2014-12-30T08:47:40Z mrkkrp: let's check it then
2014-12-30T08:48:23Z hitecnologys: Make sure you specified correct test or it will try redefining constant too.
2014-12-30T08:48:26Z Shinmera: Or just use defvar.
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2014-12-30T08:49:57Z mrkkrp: hitercnologys, yeah, I'm reading the description now
2014-12-30T08:50:29Z mrkkrp: Shinmera: I like when constants are constants
2014-12-30T08:50:40Z Shinmera: You need to stop worrying about that.
2014-12-30T08:51:17Z hitecnologys: mrkkrp: what if you needed to change it? Then you would have to recompile all the code that uses and it deal with error.
2014-12-30T08:51:18Z Shinmera: Just don't set the constant, it's not a paroblem.
2014-12-30T08:51:23Z Shinmera: *problem
2014-12-30T08:51:35Z Shinmera: And if you ever happen to be wrong in the future about not needing to change it, defvar will let you.
2014-12-30T08:53:27Z Shinmera: And if you want to indicate to users that its a constant , just use +name+, that should be sufficient.
2014-12-30T08:54:04Z H4ns: Shinmera: variables named +foo+ are a terrible idea
2014-12-30T08:54:24Z stassats: (define-symbol-macro +constant+ 10)
2014-12-30T08:54:41Z mrkkrp: hitecnologys: if I need to change it during development I will just reevaluate the definition. If I change my mind later, I will admit that my conception is wrong, so I will change source code.
2014-12-30T08:54:50Z mrkkrp: don't see a problem
2014-12-30T08:54:58Z H4ns: Shinmera: there is no concept of constantness in cl except for things that can be compared with eql.  all attempts to change that result in annoyance.
2014-12-30T08:55:16Z Shinmera: H4ns: I know.
2014-12-30T08:56:16Z mrkkrp: stassats: what if my constant is a big list? define-symbol-macro will probably put copies of it everywhere.. no?
2014-12-30T08:56:37Z stassats: it's the same as defconstant
2014-12-30T08:56:53Z akkad: Ober: you need to use CDDDDR
2014-12-30T08:57:13Z hitecnologys: mrkkrp: constant are compiled into the code. Recompiling DEFCONSTANT won't work.
2014-12-30T08:57:17Z Ober: akkad thanks
2014-12-30T08:58:04Z mrkkrp: hitecnologys: do you mean they are much like some kind of preprocessor?
2014-12-30T08:58:06Z Shinmera: akkad: Ober: Eugh. I'd rather see (nthcdr 4 list) than (cddddr list)
2014-12-30T08:58:18Z hitecnologys: mrkkrp: no.
2014-12-30T08:58:46Z stassats: mrkkrp: the same deal
2014-12-30T08:58:46Z hitecnologys: mrkkrp: they act as symbol macros.
2014-12-30T08:59:08Z Ober: how do you pronounce couldddddr?
2014-12-30T08:59:16Z stassats: with a stutter
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2014-12-30T09:00:27Z mrkkrp: :-)
2014-12-30T09:02:59Z Ober: I imagine the committee had fun with "how many d's are too many"
2014-12-30T09:04:08Z mrkkrp: so, roughly speaking, when I defconstant, lisp creates something like pointer, which it then use in every place where I put name of the constant. When I reevaluate defconstant pointer changes, but the old pointer is still used in those compiled functions?
2014-12-30T09:04:15Z Shinmera: fwiw they have a pronunciation guide on http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm for some.
2014-12-30T09:04:51Z Ober: yeah this is sbcl not lw
2014-12-30T09:05:45Z hitecnologys: mrkkrp: not exactly.
2014-12-30T09:07:14Z hitecnologys: mrkkrp: they work pretty much like symbol macros so their values are inserted into the code at compile time.
2014-12-30T09:07:19Z loke: mrkkrp: Probably. But it's not guaranteed
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2014-12-30T09:09:51Z hitecnologys: mrkkrp: redefinition of constants is undefined in specification so you cannot predict what happens. It depends on implementation.
2014-12-30T09:10:29Z akkad: ober CONSTANTLY will work too
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2014-12-30T09:17:13Z loke: LOAD-TIME-VALUE is really useful too
2014-12-30T09:18:55Z stassats: mrkkrp: there's no pointer
2014-12-30T09:20:07Z loke: stassats: Speaking of pointers. Is there a SB-function that gives me the raw value (including widetags)?
2014-12-30T09:20:52Z stassats: widetags are not a part of values
2014-12-30T09:21:01Z stassats: sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address
2014-12-30T09:21:06Z loke: stassats: ok, narrowtags then :-)
2014-12-30T09:21:12Z stassats: lowtags
2014-12-30T09:21:47Z loke: excellent. that's exactly what  was looking for
2014-12-30T09:21:59Z loke: basically EQ compares the value of this, right?
2014-12-30T09:21:59Z stassats: what for?
2014-12-30T09:22:44Z loke: I was checking to see that I understood how data was represented in SBCL. So basically, for learning purposes.
2014-12-30T09:22:52Z stassats: ok
2014-12-30T09:23:15Z stassats: yes, eq works on that level
2014-12-30T09:23:29Z stassats: sb-kernel:widetag-of
2014-12-30T09:23:39Z stassats: sb-kernel:get-header-data
2014-12-30T09:24:19Z loke: I was thinking... If one were to implement an EQ-based hashtable, one could use this value. There is no platform-independent way of doing this, correct?
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2014-12-30T09:26:13Z akkad: oooh *FEATURES*
2014-12-30T09:26:22Z stassats: loke: of doing what?
2014-12-30T09:26:23Z loke: akkad: ?
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2014-12-30T09:26:37Z akkad: loki from clhs *FEATURES*
2014-12-30T09:26:42Z loke: stassats: Create a hash based on the identify of an object
2014-12-30T09:26:54Z loke: identity
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2014-12-30T09:27:17Z akkad: testing for :x3j13
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2014-12-30T09:29:36Z stassats: loke: well, it's what all the values are
2014-12-30T09:31:26Z akkad: wtf is :HARLEQUIN-COMMON-LISP
2014-12-30T09:31:42Z stassats: a common lisp implementation, something tells me
2014-12-30T09:31:46Z akkad: :P
2014-12-30T09:32:45Z loke: akkad: where did you see that?
2014-12-30T09:32:55Z stassats: in lispworks, something tells me
2014-12-30T09:32:56Z akkad: loki *FEATURES* on lw61
2014-12-30T09:33:05Z stassats: which used to be called that name
2014-12-30T09:33:13Z akkad: ahh that makes sense.
2014-12-30T09:33:25Z loke: aha
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2014-12-30T09:42:57Z loke: stassats: Sorry, but can you explain to me how expand-control-string is used when the stream is NIL? I'm looking at the disassembly and I can't see the WRITE calls that happens in the control-string expansion
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2014-12-30T09:46:24Z stassats: it's there, just the LAMBDA is not inline for some reason
2014-12-30T09:46:36Z loke: Ah
2014-12-30T09:47:18Z loke: But then, if one wants to optimise this to not use streams for the simple cases, this can't be done in expand-control-string?
2014-12-30T09:47:58Z stassats: it can't be done there, as i corrected myself yesterday
2014-12-30T09:48:03Z stassats: it has to be a transform on FORMAT
2014-12-30T09:49:33Z loke: stassats: Right. I missed that message yesterday
2014-12-30T09:49:38Z loke: makes more sense then
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2014-12-30T09:54:39Z stassats: clhs w-o-t-s
2014-12-30T09:54:39Z specbot: with-output-to-string: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_out_.htm
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2014-12-30T09:54:53Z stassats: "with-output-from-string"
2014-12-30T09:54:55Z stassats: amusingly
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2014-12-30T10:00:40Z stassats: i made a special with-output-to-string for format, which doesn't have to close the stream in unwind-protect, now that's a bit more compact
2014-12-30T10:03:00Z stassats: and a bit faster
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2014-12-30T10:05:53Z stassats: though, in theory it cannot be used
2014-12-30T10:06:18Z stassats: ah, no, it can, format doesn't advertise that it must use with-output-to-string
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2014-12-30T10:24:24Z nikki93: are all things on quickdocs on quicklisp?
2014-12-30T10:27:12Z akkad: wow armedbear sure spawns threads many more times than the others
2014-12-30T10:29:04Z loke: nikki93: Yes, I think so. But not the other way around
2014-12-30T10:29:19Z loke: because the server that loads and generates quickdocs doesn't have all dependent packages installed
2014-12-30T10:29:40Z nikki93: loke: actually, I think that's false... see cl-sdl2 for example
2014-12-30T10:29:56Z nikki93: loke: it's on quickdocs but ql:quickload fails
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2014-12-30T10:30:22Z nikki93: loke: or maybe I just need to update my quicklisp cache or something?
2014-12-30T10:31:35Z loke: nikki93: try quickloading "sdl2"
2014-12-30T10:31:41Z nikki93: loke: ya got it. thax!
2014-12-30T10:31:46Z nikki93: *thx
2014-12-30T10:31:46Z loke: (ql:system-apropos) is useful
2014-12-30T10:32:10Z nikki93: loke: yup that's what I used. looks like the github page https://github.com/lispgames/cl-sdl2 needs to be updated
2014-12-30T10:32:16Z nikki93: it says "not on quicklisp yet" tho it is
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2014-12-30T10:35:14Z mrkkrp: how user-defined callbacks should be implemented with cffi? For example, readline line has variables like rl_starup_hook, that can be assigned to pointer to function. Readline then can call the function on startup. What is canonical way to implement this? I think it would be great if user can use lambda or any normal function as such a hook.
2014-12-30T10:35:51Z stassats: http://common-lisp.net/projects/cffi/manual/html_node/callback.html
2014-12-30T10:36:07Z mrkkrp: I've read this
2014-12-30T10:36:11Z loke: mrkkrp: http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Tutorial_002dCallbacks.html
2014-12-30T10:36:12Z mrkkrp: defcallback
2014-12-30T10:36:21Z stassats: then you're set
2014-12-30T10:36:22Z mrkkrp: but it requires a name
2014-12-30T10:36:52Z mrkkrp: so, for example if you have (defun rl-set-starup-hook (function))
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2014-12-30T10:37:32Z mrkkrp: sould I internally define a callback that calls supplied function
2014-12-30T10:37:39Z mrkkrp: what name to use for the callback?
2014-12-30T10:37:43Z mrkkrp: gensymed?
2014-12-30T10:38:06Z mrkkrp: is it normal?
2014-12-30T10:38:52Z stassats: why is your function prefixed with rl-?
2014-12-30T10:39:28Z mrkkrp: well, it's readline convention, do you think I sould omit all rl- s?
2014-12-30T10:39:56Z stassats: yes, you should, C doesn't have packages, doesn't mean we have to suffer too
2014-12-30T10:40:05Z stassats: (defmacro register-startup-hook (&body body) `(cffi:defcallback) (set-callback (callback)))
2014-12-30T10:41:31Z loke: mrkkrp: I'd use the BSD editline library instead.
2014-12-30T10:41:36Z mrkkrp: stassats, but if you use cl-readline package in your own package, there will be no prefix cl-readline:, or it's a bad thing to (:use :common-lisp :cl-readline)
2014-12-30T10:42:37Z stassats: it is a bad thing
2014-12-30T10:42:59Z mrkkrp: ok, I will remove rl- and add a shorter nickname
2014-12-30T10:43:05Z loke: :USE of third-party libraries is generally a bad thing
2014-12-30T10:43:15Z stassats: you are duplicating the package with a prefix, defeating the purpose of the package
2014-12-30T10:44:06Z akkad: if you have several threads writing to stdout, is there a way to serialize it to avoid bleed through ?
2014-12-30T10:44:29Z stassats: akkad: don't write at the same time
2014-12-30T10:45:44Z akkad: locks
2014-12-30T10:47:09Z nydel: what is the format directive for repetition of the proceeding character? something like "~80a" to format "a" 80 times?
2014-12-30T10:50:52Z stassats: (format t "~v@{~a~:*~:}~*" 5 "abc")
2014-12-30T10:51:14Z stassats: or (format t "~80@{~a~:*~:}~*" "a")
2014-12-30T10:55:38Z nydel: thanks stassats, i guess i really never learned how to do that before. format is amazing.
2014-12-30T10:57:19Z Ralt: stassats: can you explain the @{~a~:*~:}~* part? I can get the ~a...
2014-12-30T10:57:40Z stassats: that would make it less magical
2014-12-30T10:57:52Z Ralt: lol
2014-12-30T10:58:04Z stassats: clhs ~{
2014-12-30T10:58:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgd.htm
2014-12-30T10:58:07Z stassats: clhs ~*
2014-12-30T10:58:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cga.htm
2014-12-30T10:58:10Z stassats: go from there
2014-12-30T10:58:49Z Ralt: ty
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2014-12-30T10:59:04Z akkad: the apex domain also has a nice lisp for sale
2014-12-30T11:00:11Z nydel: ha i would've asked the same thing Ralt but i've been pestering stassats long enough to know i'm not gonna get an answer, i'm gonna get an awesome homework assignment in the shape of an answer
2014-12-30T11:02:36Z Ralt: hm... from the docs, I'd understand @{~a~80:*~}
2014-12-30T11:03:05Z stassats: ~80:* goes back 80 positions, there's no 80 positions
2014-12-30T11:03:25Z Ralt: oh, reading the docs wrong, my bad
2014-12-30T11:03:43Z nydel: if you look up each directive on its own the formula becomes clear
2014-12-30T11:06:21Z protist: has anyone set up an email service in Common Lisp before?...if so what are some things I should know
2014-12-30T11:06:27Z protist: anyone here*
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2014-12-30T11:08:12Z nydel: protist: are you doing both ends (client/server)?
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2014-12-30T11:08:43Z protist: nydel: I don't have much experience with this...I am trying to use cl-smtp...I want to both send and recieve emails
2014-12-30T11:08:51Z protist: nydel: or possibly forward received emails
2014-12-30T11:09:01Z stassats: cl-smtp can send emails
2014-12-30T11:09:28Z protist: stassats: can you point me to a hello world type example
2014-12-30T11:09:37Z protist: stassats: start to finish
2014-12-30T11:09:47Z protist: stassats: tried something....got a socket error
2014-12-30T11:09:54Z protist: stassats: SB-BSD-SOCKETS:CONNECTION-REFUSED-ERROR
2014-12-30T11:10:06Z stassats: you used a wrong port
2014-12-30T11:10:20Z protist: stassats: I didn't specify one :/
2014-12-30T11:10:54Z protist: stassats: first 4 lines here...should show what I was trying enough
2014-12-30T11:10:56Z protist: (send-email
2014-12-30T11:10:58Z protist:     "localhost"
2014-12-30T11:10:59Z protist:     "source@email.com"
2014-12-30T11:11:01Z protist:     "phage74@gmail.com"
2014-12-30T11:11:15Z protist: shit...left the email in there
2014-12-30T11:11:29Z Shinmera: Don't paste lines into the channel either way.
2014-12-30T11:11:43Z protist: Shinmera: thought there was the normal <= 4 lines rule
2014-12-30T11:11:55Z Shinmera: I've never heard of such a rule
2014-12-30T11:11:56Z stassats: it's the <= 1 line rule
2014-12-30T11:12:00Z protist: stassats: ah
2014-12-30T11:12:07Z protist: stassats: noted
2014-12-30T11:12:23Z Zhivago: Hopefully you have a use for penis extension spam. :)
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2014-12-30T11:12:34Z nydel: protist: are you running a mail server on the localhost?
2014-12-30T11:12:45Z protist: nydel: nope
2014-12-30T11:12:54Z protist: nydel: how should I go about that?
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2014-12-30T11:14:43Z stassats: you shouldn't, the best option
2014-12-30T11:15:00Z protist: stassats: making a website...want to send automated emails
2014-12-30T11:15:23Z protist: stassats: payment verifications and other stuff
2014-12-30T11:15:54Z nydel: protist: just use some outgoing mailserver that doesn't require authentication. is what i would do.
2014-12-30T11:16:25Z nydel: i can't think of a good one off the top of my head, but somebody else can.
2014-12-30T11:17:06Z axion: cl-smtp works fine with authenticated mail servers
2014-12-30T11:17:13Z axion: i use it with gmail just fine
2014-12-30T11:18:08Z loke: axion: You probably want this
2014-12-30T11:18:09Z loke: https://mandrill.com/
2014-12-30T11:18:20Z axion: nah, not a fan
2014-12-30T11:18:33Z loke: axion: There are alternative solutions
2014-12-30T11:18:41Z loke: Anyway
2014-12-30T11:18:43Z loke: heading home
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2014-12-30T11:27:58Z nydel: still looking for contributors for this "multi-user common lisp repl" project https://github.com/nydel/muclr which should be a lot of fun
2014-12-30T11:28:28Z nydel: also interested in information on any similar existing packages, haven't found anything yet
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2014-12-30T11:35:22Z akkad: acons works
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2014-12-30T11:44:09Z hitecnologys: nydel: a while ago, somebody suggested running something like paste.lisp.org but with support for interactive collaborative editing and evaluation. Does this have anything to do with it?
2014-12-30T11:51:07Z mrkkrp: why is that: (typep nil 'string-designator) => T . because NIL is a symbol?
2014-12-30T11:51:38Z nydel: hitecnologys: no but that's an interesting and related idea, i'm trying to look into it
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2014-12-30T11:54:23Z nydel: in fact i didn't even think about hooking the muclr instances up to irc directly, a la paste.lisp.org, but that's a great idea.
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2014-12-30T11:57:36Z nydel: the whole muclr project started because i wanted to incorporate an irc-style chat directly into the repl. running with that, the idea of a shared repl space, usable from but separate from the client's repl, was not far away. nor was the idea of a registrar so clients can open up an repl and just have a look at what shared instances are open and what people are up to on the instances.
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2014-12-30T11:59:22Z nydel: http://comp.lang.lisp.narkive.com/8AlnUgXw/multiuser-lisp-server more request for what muclr will offer and failure to find existing packages
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2014-12-30T12:09:48Z yenda: they didn't do it in 9 years ?
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2014-12-30T12:13:32Z nydel: not that i've seen yenda. of course there is swank-server & slime-connect, but it's not the same thing.
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2014-12-30T12:17:13Z yenda: nydel: I think I kinda get what you want to do but could you give a use case exemple. I'm not sure how you want the irc thing to work
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2014-12-30T12:18:34Z wasamasa: hmm
2014-12-30T12:18:41Z wasamasa: that reminds me of urbit somehow
2014-12-30T12:18:53Z wasamasa: which claims to have a functional repl and IRC!
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2014-12-30T12:19:23Z wasamasa: obviously, it's not a lisp
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2014-12-30T12:20:28Z nydel: yenda: this was some notes/doodling i did at the beginning, you can see what i imagine the REPL experience of muclr to be like https://github.com/nydel/muclr/blob/c55a459100500fa2d92a7f9f4637df8b63180b27/ABOUT
2014-12-30T12:20:50Z nydel: around line 50 and beyond
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2014-12-30T12:31:26Z yenda: nydel: the shared repl is a really nice idea, it could definetely boost some projects
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2014-12-30T12:31:37Z yenda: the irc thing seems really tideous though
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2014-12-30T12:39:49Z ffwacom: http://i25.tinypic.com/28lx99g.jpg
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2014-12-30T12:44:28Z yenda: ffwacom: I don't get it
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2014-12-30T12:45:09Z ffwacom: yenda: ah
2014-12-30T12:45:13Z ffwacom: context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvKkZhhnuFk
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2014-12-30T12:48:13Z nydel: yenda: the way i wrote the example is terrible syntax but i plan to get the details perfect. i guess i just have to build enough of this myself to demonstrate what it could do/be before contributors will appear.
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2014-12-30T12:50:09Z akkad: The variable WANKER::X is unbound. I need a better naming scheme
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2014-12-30T13:09:40Z names: vhost- clop2 alchemis7 copec paritybit pok_ jasom enn dim
2014-12-30T13:09:47Z akkad hunts for ways to profile some code to see where all the time is spent
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2014-12-30T13:22:14Z yenda: nydel: the way you do it it's not irc anymore right ? it's a messaging system similar to irc within a lisp image ?
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2014-12-30T13:32:10Z nydel: yenda: yes. well, the shared repl is just an archetecture, it'll include a chat but a large part of the project is that each shared repl instance can be customized to work the way the group wants.
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2014-12-30T13:44:57Z mrkkrp: nydel, interesting idea, I would like to see a demo of such a repl
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2014-12-30T13:56:54Z nydel: mrkkrp: working to have one available soon, i'm pretty excited about it
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2014-12-30T14:42:54Z Xach: stassats: you can't make me go away!!
2014-12-30T14:43:23Z stassats: you just watch
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2014-12-30T14:49:29Z stassats: is there a formula to compute bounds of the LOGCOUNT function?
2014-12-30T14:49:56Z stassats: integer-length is clearly not optimal
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2014-12-30T14:50:57Z Xach: oops, that was nhabedi's commit
2014-12-30T14:55:13Z stassats: i should ask Project Euler to include this as a problem and wait until somebody comes up with an O(1) solution
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2014-12-30T15:00:11Z Xach discovers that gdb is apparently a requirement of commonqt
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2014-12-30T15:04:39Z mrkkrp: many things now work fine, but I can't get blinking parens. I saw they can blink in clisp! Everyone wants blinking parens, I'm sure.
2014-12-30T15:05:10Z Xach: mrkkrp: most people get blinking parens from their editor, not from the plain REPL.
2014-12-30T15:05:18Z Xach: clisp is the exception, and notable for little else.
2014-12-30T15:05:31Z stassats: for a menorah
2014-12-30T15:05:55Z mrkkrp: well, but realine user may want blinking parens
2014-12-30T15:06:29Z Xach: oh, this is for the readline project?
2014-12-30T15:06:31Z H4ns: mrkkrp: when you've been using lisp for a little while, you'll recognize that you're rarely using the bare repl.
2014-12-30T15:06:38Z mrkkrp: Xach, yes
2014-12-30T15:06:57Z mrkkrp: H4ns, I don't want to use bare repl
2014-12-30T15:07:08Z mrkkrp: H4ns, I'm writing bindings for readline
2014-12-30T15:07:10Z Xach: mrkkrp: i suppose you could check the clisp sources and see how it does paren matching
2014-12-30T15:07:21Z mrkkrp: Xach, maybe...
2014-12-30T15:07:28Z mrkkrp: http://cnswww.cns.cwru.edu/php/chet/readline/readline.html#IDX331
2014-12-30T15:07:33Z H4ns: mrkkrp: ah, you're shaving yaks, sorry for the interruption.
2014-12-30T15:07:34Z mrkkrp: this things doesn't work...
2014-12-30T15:08:46Z wasamasa: mrkkrp: `rlwrap clisp`
2014-12-30T15:08:51Z wasamasa: mrkkrp: blinking parentheses!
2014-12-30T15:09:37Z wasamasa: mrkkrp: although, `clisp` supports them on its own already
2014-12-30T15:10:20Z Xach: wasamasa: we have moved past that already.
2014-12-30T15:10:41Z wasamasa hides
2014-12-30T15:11:04Z stassats: rl_variable_bind("blink-matching-paren","on")?
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2014-12-30T15:13:06Z mrkkrp: stassats, it's on by default
2014-12-30T15:13:19Z mrkkrp: but doesn't work
2014-12-30T15:13:23Z stassats: so, is it on?
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2014-12-30T15:15:09Z mrkkrp: RL> (variable-value "blink-matching-paren") => "on"
2014-12-30T15:15:12Z mrkkrp: yes
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2014-12-30T15:15:54Z mrkkrp: I'm also testing from pure C, it doesn't work there either
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2014-12-30T15:16:11Z stassats: and everything else works?
2014-12-30T15:16:30Z mrkkrp: well, not everything is implemented yet, but quite a bit
2014-12-30T15:17:01Z mrkkrp: readline itself, variables and wrappers for them, hooks and custom functions, some misc stuff
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2014-12-30T15:17:40Z mrkkrp: the only big problem is redirection of output from some commands to *standard-output*
2014-12-30T15:17:50Z mrkkrp: I just don't know how to make it work
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2014-12-30T15:20:21Z mrkkrp: now readline has a bunch of keyword parameters, so I've eliminated many useless variables (for example rl_num_chars_to_read)
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2014-12-30T15:27:46Z mrkkrp: let's see sources of clisp, maybe they knew some magical secret of blinking parenthesis
2014-12-30T15:28:22Z mrkkrp: by the way, anyone knows why clisp is not developing anymore?
2014-12-30T15:28:43Z p_l: it's more alive than GCL
2014-12-30T15:28:52Z p_l: otoh, I once looked into the code and ran away
2014-12-30T15:29:02Z Xach: p_l: gcl has had two (or more) releases in 2014
2014-12-30T15:29:09Z p_l: Xach: o_O
2014-12-30T15:29:20Z p_l: I'm honestly impressed
2014-12-30T15:29:28Z stassats: looking at the commit log of clisp, nothing seems to be happening, just some small changes here and there
2014-12-30T15:30:41Z H4ns: mrkkrp: there is little interest in a common lisp implementation that uses a virtual machine underneath.  one reason to use common lisp in the first place is that it promises high performance, which is something that clisp cannot deliver.
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2014-12-30T15:32:50Z p_l: H4ns: well, it was a) very portable b) optionally fast, I could see a lot more interest
2014-12-30T15:33:13Z stassats: portable until you're trying to use FFI
2014-12-30T15:33:42Z mrkkrp: does it have github repo?
2014-12-30T15:33:57Z mrkkrp: can't find source on sourceforge
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2014-12-30T15:34:31Z p_l: ... it's just, well, the code of clisp is in some places very, very bad, and iirc the head dev wasn't very helpful in fixing some of that
2014-12-30T15:36:03Z mrkkrp: ah.. java script...
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2014-12-30T15:37:08Z yenda: When I tried clisp for the first time I was like wtf is this. The way the devs mix dev and politics is plain ugly and they are proud of it
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2014-12-30T15:37:40Z stassats: are you talking about the menorah?
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2014-12-30T15:40:50Z yenda: well the menorah is just a big clue but it goes further in faq and mailing list
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2014-12-30T15:43:12Z mrkkrp: ..you may simply think that Common Lisp brings the Light to a programmer, and CLISP is a vehicle that carries the Light. O_o
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2014-12-30T15:45:14Z yenda: mrkkrp: sounds legit
2014-12-30T15:46:13Z ahungry_: I'm thinking of making an auto-loader for caveman2, so that users can create a directory/file path like third-party/module-name/module.lisp and it will be read in automatically on server start - would the best (or at least easiest to implement) just be to push all the dirs to ql:*local-project-directories* and then map #'ql:quickload across them?
2014-12-30T15:46:57Z ahungry_: For web dev, it would make it easy to then build a CMS or something on top of caveman2 and let users add new features similar to plugins/third party extensions on other big frameworks/CMSes from other languages
2014-12-30T15:47:09Z Xach: ahungry_: are system files (*.asd) involved?
2014-12-30T15:47:24Z yenda: nydel: have you tried using swank ?
2014-12-30T15:47:26Z ahungry_: Well, since such a structure for caveman2 doesn't exist as far as I'm aware, I'd think that would be the default
2014-12-30T15:47:43Z ahungry_: otherwise the .lisp's would have no (good) way to load depenencies they may have
2014-12-30T15:47:49Z ahungry_: on standard CL projects
2014-12-30T15:47:53Z Xach: ahungry_: is that a yes or a no?
2014-12-30T15:47:55Z ahungry_: yes
2014-12-30T15:47:56Z ahungry_: sorry
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2014-12-30T15:48:38Z Xach: ahungry_: i would use asdf:*central-registry* instead of ql:*local-projects-directories*. the latter does some automagic scanning that isn't necessary for your use-case.
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2014-12-30T15:49:37Z ahungry_: Thanks Xach
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2014-12-30T15:58:26Z mrkkrp: I found: !!! Returned array should be freed, but if I :malloc-free it, clisp
2014-12-30T15:58:30Z mrkkrp: ;;; tries to free the c-string too. Bad.
2014-12-30T15:58:44Z mrkkrp: ; FIXME: leaks
2014-12-30T16:00:39Z mrkkrp: seems like clisp doesn't use rl_set_blink_timeout at all, there is a comment that it's untested
2014-12-30T16:01:53Z nikki93: hi all
2014-12-30T16:02:06Z nikki93: so I made a thing with quickproject, and I used lispbuilder-sdl, however I want to switch to the new package cl-sdl2
2014-12-30T16:02:16Z nikki93: is the only thing I need to change the .asd file and change :depends-on?
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2014-12-30T16:02:42Z stassats: depends
2014-12-30T16:02:46Z Xach: nikki93: possibly.
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2014-12-30T16:02:52Z nikki93: lol ok will try
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2014-12-30T16:03:15Z Xach: nikki93: that is certainly the first thing to change, but if you have referenced the symbol and package structure of lispbuilder-sdl you will need to update things depending on how much cl-sdl2 differs.
2014-12-30T16:03:26Z nikki93: oh yeah that part is fine
2014-12-30T16:03:30Z nikki93: like I'll update the code to do the new stuff
2014-12-30T16:03:34Z nikki93: but I was wondering about other infrastructure
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2014-12-30T16:06:15Z mrkkrp: there is a bug in readline. it says that 'blink-matching-paren' is on after initialization, but it's off, you need to explicitely rebind this variable to get blinking parens
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2014-12-30T16:08:38Z mrkkrp: I think I will include in docs
2014-12-30T16:08:50Z mrkkrp: *include it
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2014-12-30T16:32:13Z yenda: nydel: isn't it possible to have multiple connection to a lisp image using swank ?
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2014-12-30T16:37:44Z Shinmera: It is.
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2014-12-30T16:46:46Z yenda: then wouldn't be possible to improve it rather than build something new ?
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2014-12-30T16:49:25Z oGMo: ?
2014-12-30T16:50:11Z yenda: talking about nydel's project : https://github.com/nydel/muclr
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2014-12-30T16:51:13Z oGMo: eh .. talking to swank isn't amazingly easy and swank is possibly unsuited to whatever that is doing, and the protocol doesn't offer anything particularly nontrivial
2014-12-30T16:51:45Z stassats: talking to swank isn't hard
2014-12-30T16:52:19Z yenda: there's not much to say to swank anyway
2014-12-30T16:52:20Z oGMo: it isn't, but it's not well-documented/specified, and talking to it and making it work for that could be more work than it's worth
2014-12-30T16:53:33Z oGMo: i mean, it's very targeted at being the backend for slime, rather than being a general "lisp server"
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2014-12-30T16:56:37Z yenda: yes, so there is already a working client/lisp server implementation with slime, why not just ehance it and document it instead of doing something new. or is slime bad I don't know
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2014-12-30T16:56:59Z eudoxia: who the hell wants to write documentation for another project
2014-12-30T16:57:24Z eudoxia: if people don't write docs fuck them and roll your own
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2014-12-30T16:58:15Z Xach: people making stuff for free in their spare time often do what's fun rather than what's most needed or sensible
2014-12-30T16:58:20Z stassats: yeah, fuck those schmucks for not writing docs in their free time
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2014-12-30T16:58:45Z yenda: that's probably why so many lisp projects are dead
2014-12-30T16:58:58Z Xach: you are entitled to a full refund
2014-12-30T16:58:58Z stassats: how many?
2014-12-30T16:59:09Z yenda: "oh no docs, lets write something new from scratch", is that what you do ?
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2014-12-30T17:00:42Z ahungry_: Does CL have something to parse .lisp files and create docs out of their documentation strings?
2014-12-30T17:00:48Z Shinmera: Clearly slime isn't a well-enough established project and nobody uses it so just rewrite it.
2014-12-30T17:00:50Z ahungry_: like barebones API docs
2014-12-30T17:01:04Z stassats: Shinmera: that's what i'm doing
2014-12-30T17:01:16Z Shinmera: ahungry_: Parsing .lisp files is usually not done, but you can just use DOCUMENTATION to get the docstrings.
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2014-12-30T17:01:32Z Shinmera: ahungry_: And there's at least a gazillion documentation generation libs for CL.
2014-12-30T17:01:50Z ahungry_: Ok, documentatoin generation lib is the phrasing I was looking for :) thanks
2014-12-30T17:02:11Z ahungry_: I think that (to have a full map of callable APis) + a few basic examples is all the docs most things really need
2014-12-30T17:02:29Z eudoxia: quickdocs generates nice looking docs
2014-12-30T17:02:32Z Shinmera: ahungry_: My own personal thing in that direction would be Staple, but there's a bunch on Cliki http://cliki.net/Documentation%20Tool
2014-12-30T17:02:33Z yenda: Shinmera: is there even a free alternative to slime ?
2014-12-30T17:02:54Z Shinmera: yenda: I don't know.
2014-12-30T17:03:20Z eudoxia: i wrote one but it's not on github
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2014-12-30T17:05:04Z yenda: Shinmera: you said it's not a well enough established project and that nobody uses it, so I assumed you were using something else, so I guess it's LW or Allegro ? Is everybody using propriatary software for lisp dev ?
2014-12-30T17:05:18Z Shinmera: yenda: I was being extremely sarcastic.
2014-12-30T17:05:28Z Shinmera: I am flabbergasted that you did not catch that
2014-12-30T17:06:13Z yenda: I dont get sarcasm well
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2014-12-30T17:08:36Z yenda: also I'm new to lisp so it was a possibility, even if it would have been a surprising one considering the amout of litterature I already read that talked about slime
2014-12-30T17:09:18Z p_l: a/ct
2014-12-30T17:09:19Z Shinmera: Commercial lisps usually offer their entire own IDE or also work with Slime. I haven't heard of anyone using anything else.
2014-12-30T17:09:35Z p_l: Allegro has ELI as well, but it works fine with SLIME
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2014-12-30T17:09:48Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2014-12-30T17:09:55Z Xach: ILISP preceded slime and I think there may be one or two people who use it. ELI is another thing that people who are used to it who use Allegro CL use.
2014-12-30T17:10:12Z Shinmera: Hello, beach
2014-12-30T17:10:21Z Xach: My impression is that most people starting now would choose slime by default. The options were different years ago.
2014-12-30T17:10:36Z p_l: as for SLIME, there are few things that people who use ViM use, which also use parts of SLIME (swank)
2014-12-30T17:13:20Z yenda: so with little effort people can actually work simultaneously on the same image already
2014-12-30T17:14:14Z Shinmera: yenda: I think what nydel wants is more support for interaction between users, but I think it should be trivial to add a command to broadcast something to other users.
2014-12-30T17:15:23Z yenda: Shinmera: yes that's what I mean, client/server is already kind of done with slime so only the support for interaction is needed
2014-12-30T17:16:15Z DeadTrickster: How to reach author of chunga, I created an issue a couple of month ago and still no reply. It looks critical too me (the same things as here https://github.com/fukamachi/fast-http/issues/1)
2014-12-30T17:16:58Z beach: Sounds like a project by Edi Weitz, no?
2014-12-30T17:18:12Z beach: DeadTrickster: https://github.com/edicl/chunga
2014-12-30T17:18:24Z stassats: DeadTrickster: you can talk to me
2014-12-30T17:18:33Z DeadTrickster: yea as i said i already created issue here
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2014-12-30T17:18:44Z DeadTrickster: he uses keywords for header names
2014-12-30T17:18:49Z DeadTrickster: it's a mistake
2014-12-30T17:19:09Z beach: DeadTrickster: Oh, so is fukamachi and edi the same?
2014-12-30T17:19:25Z DeadTrickster: no, why?
2014-12-30T17:19:40Z DeadTrickster: fukamachi made same mistake too but he corrected it
2014-12-30T17:20:30Z stassats: DeadTrickster: this is a part of an exported interface, cannot be easily changed
2014-12-30T17:20:57Z DeadTrickster: yea I know it's sad
2014-12-30T17:21:57Z DeadTrickster: this is how we use it here - (header value body)
2014-12-30T17:22:00Z DeadTrickster: (cdr (assoc name headers :test #'ia-hash-table:string-equalp))
2014-12-30T17:22:20Z DeadTrickster: header fileds can be accessed by symbols and strings at the same time
2014-12-30T17:23:34Z DeadTrickster: ia-hash-table is simple port of indifferent access hash table from ruby
2014-12-30T17:24:27Z DeadTrickster: string-equalp is a test function something like (string-equal (string f1) (string f2))
2014-12-30T17:24:52Z stassats: what's the point of calling STRING?
2014-12-30T17:25:06Z DeadTrickster: calling what?
2014-12-30T17:25:18Z stassats: STRING
2014-12-30T17:26:01Z DeadTrickster: I don't know it's just an example
2014-12-30T17:26:09Z DeadTrickster: maybe just symbol-name is enough
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2014-12-30T17:27:47Z stassats: (string-equal (string f1) (string f2)) == (string-equal f1 f2)
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2014-12-30T17:28:32Z DeadTrickster: woops, thanks
2014-12-30T17:28:37Z DeadTrickster: :-)
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2014-12-30T17:31:05Z stassats: and i closed your issue, since i really can't see a way around it
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2014-12-30T17:31:54Z stassats: sort of releasing hunchentoot 2.0 and drakma 2.0
2014-12-30T17:31:57Z stassats: short of
2014-12-30T17:32:28Z DeadTrickster: hunch uses chunga too, right?
2014-12-30T17:32:34Z stassats: it does
2014-12-30T17:33:10Z DeadTrickster: please review tests here https://github.com/fukamachi/fast-http/issues/1
2014-12-30T17:33:20Z DeadTrickster: it's really bad thing
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2014-12-30T17:33:34Z stassats: i don't need to review it, i know that it's a problem
2014-12-30T17:33:52Z DeadTrickster: why you won't fix?
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2014-12-30T17:34:05Z stassats: i already told why
2014-12-30T17:35:41Z DeadTrickster: why bothering with 2.0 releases if they both based on chunga and vulnerable by design?
2014-12-30T17:36:25Z stassats: because you can't silently break people's code
2014-12-30T17:36:36Z Shinmera: Because it would change how people have to access the function, thus breaking existing code that uses Chunga.
2014-12-30T17:36:47Z Shinmera: or rather the data the function returns
2014-12-30T17:36:54Z DeadTrickster: break it loudly
2014-12-30T17:36:59Z stassats: it would have to be a complete removal of existing accessors which return keywords and addition of new ones
2014-12-30T17:37:19Z DeadTrickster: make major release after al
2014-12-30T17:37:26Z stassats: and heap exhausted error is not a failure mode
2014-12-30T17:37:39Z stassats: not a bad
2014-12-30T17:39:02Z DeadTrickster: it doesn't break things?
2014-12-30T17:39:27Z p_l: well, a fast workaround is to filter headers on load balancer
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2014-12-30T17:40:56Z stassats: well, you fix the headers and somebody sends you a gazillion of post-parameters, what's was the point of fixing the headers?
2014-12-30T17:41:48Z DeadTrickster: ha limit header size
2014-12-30T17:41:56Z DeadTrickster: to say 2mb that's all
2014-12-30T17:42:44Z p_l: stassats: well, I'd probably process POST requests "manually", i.e. accept them as data stream
2014-12-30T17:43:12Z p_l: but I don't know currently used libraries and how they might abstract getting parameters out of POST....
2014-12-30T17:43:58Z DeadTrickster: in hunch if I'm correct you can get body stream
2014-12-30T17:44:11Z p_l: well, it's what I'd expect to deal with in case of POST
2014-12-30T17:44:58Z DeadTrickster: after all it will work behind something like nginx where you have limits anyway
2014-12-30T17:45:07Z stassats: and cookies
2014-12-30T17:45:14Z stassats: and sessions
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2014-12-30T17:45:33Z DeadTrickster: the can be at least gced
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2014-12-30T17:45:47Z stassats: not really
2014-12-30T17:45:51Z DeadTrickster: why?
2014-12-30T17:46:02Z stassats: they are used
2014-12-30T17:46:28Z p_l: I'd probably use weak bindings in many places and do something that returns the data from whatever the external storage is...
2014-12-30T17:46:29Z DeadTrickster: their usage is limited in time
2014-12-30T17:46:50Z stassats: enough to cause heap exhaustion
2014-12-30T17:47:43Z p_l: that said, the discussion on the bug reminds me to maybe look through cl-http code
2014-12-30T17:47:43Z DeadTrickster: so that why you use software developed by someone smart enough to think about things like that
2014-12-30T17:48:16Z DeadTrickster: I'm sure this all solved by many other project many times
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2014-12-30T17:50:31Z stassats: this would require a complete rewrite of hunchentoot, maybe you want to take on it?
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2014-12-30T17:56:15Z DeadTrickster: I reported this issue, contacted you here thats all I can do for now.
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2014-12-30T17:56:36Z stassats: well, that's all i could do as well
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2014-12-30T17:57:19Z DeadTrickster: :-)
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2014-12-30T18:04:33Z yenda: is it a big deal ? because it sounds like it, and it's sad that it will stay that way. I wish I wasn't so new to lisp because I would have done it.
2014-12-30T18:04:56Z stassats: it's not that big of a deal
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2014-12-30T18:05:55Z Xach cheated in his header thing, just stored start and end indexes into the header vector (which was kept as octets)
2014-12-30T18:06:19Z Xach: so easy when you don't have to be compatible with anything!
2014-12-30T18:06:30Z stassats: if you are targeted with some DDOS attack, they will just find another way
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2014-12-30T18:07:05Z DeadTrickster: strange logic
2014-12-30T18:07:18Z DeadTrickster: do you have door locks?
2014-12-30T18:07:40Z stassats: yes, and a metal door on a wooden shed
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2014-12-30T18:07:55Z DeadTrickster: why? you still have windows
2014-12-30T18:08:12Z stassats: bad analogy time
2014-12-30T18:08:20Z DeadTrickster: no
2014-12-30T18:08:23Z yenda: as I understand it anybody with bad intentions can take down a hochenhoot server through this flaw ?
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2014-12-30T18:08:31Z DeadTrickster: yes
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2014-12-30T18:13:33Z hagiri: beach, hello man
2014-12-30T18:13:34Z hagiri: ..
2014-12-30T18:13:47Z yenda: DeadTrickster: but the heap exhaustion is only a problem for the lisp image right ? it won't take down the entire server ?
2014-12-30T18:14:08Z stassats: yenda: right
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2014-12-30T18:15:12Z DeadTrickster: perfect ddos attach vector :-)
2014-12-30T18:15:17Z DeadTrickster: *attac
2014-12-30T18:16:57Z yenda: Well it does really bad for production websites for sure but for my future pet projects I guess it's ok
2014-12-30T18:17:17Z yenda: s/does/does sound
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2014-12-30T18:20:43Z dlowe: typically, if you want to do production, you'll have a proxy for the front-end anyway
2014-12-30T18:21:04Z dlowe: hunchentoot does fine for a backend app server.
2014-12-30T18:21:11Z Grue`: dlowe: ok, how would that help to prevent this attack?
2014-12-30T18:21:42Z Grue`: aren't all post parameters passed down to hunchentoot anyway?
2014-12-30T18:21:57Z stassats: you can filter the headers
2014-12-30T18:22:27Z dlowe: or just deny requests that don't satisfy sanity checks, which you want anyway
2014-12-30T18:22:36Z dlowe: no need to unnecessarily load your backend
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2014-12-30T18:25:24Z Grue`: well, if someone manages to create a set of rules for nginx to prevent this problem, let me know
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2014-12-30T18:42:40Z _death: you can also keep a table of newly-interned keywords which is bounded and once it reaches that bound it stops interning and gives out warnings
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2014-12-30T18:43:06Z _death: (or some other policy)
2014-12-30T18:43:24Z malpas is now known as aleamb
2014-12-30T18:44:05Z _death: restarts could be provided telling it how to move on
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2014-12-30T18:47:56Z yenda: is having a .lisp file that you load everytime you stat slime the proper way to work on a small project ?
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2014-12-30T18:48:33Z _death: yenda: http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html
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2014-12-30T18:49:51Z _death: if you just want something to run every time you start slime you can put stuff in ~/.swank.lisp .. it's also possible you want ~/.sbclrc or to save your own development image
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2014-12-30T18:51:42Z nyef: Hello all.
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2014-12-30T18:52:38Z mrkkrp: can anyone explain me why when I specify type (simple-array character) I get 15-30 % better performance over simple-string. I thought they are the same thing..
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2014-12-30T18:53:23Z yenda: _death: nice, thanks that's what I was looking for
2014-12-30T18:54:12Z nyef: mrkkrp: In SBCL, simple-string is (or (simple-vector character) (simple-vector base-char) (simple-vector nil)) or something like that.
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2014-12-30T18:55:21Z nyef: mrkkrp: There's a difference between STRING, BASE-STRING, (AND STRING (NOT BASE-STRING), and that's before bringing (VECTOR NIL) and simple arrays to the party.
2014-12-30T18:56:15Z mrkkrp: is there difference between (simple-array character) and (simple-vector character) ?
2014-12-30T18:56:31Z stassats: yes
2014-12-30T18:56:34Z mrkkrp: which is faster?
2014-12-30T18:56:51Z stassats: the most specific one
2014-12-30T18:57:25Z Bicyclidine: (simple-vector character) is actually a typo, simple vectors are always T
2014-12-30T18:57:48Z mrkkrp: (type-of "string") => (simple-array character)
2014-12-30T18:58:04Z mrkkrp: (simple-array character) should be the most specific one
2014-12-30T18:58:33Z nyef: You used type-of, which has a fair bit of leeway.
2014-12-30T18:59:13Z nyef: (subtypep '(simple-array character) '(simple-vector character)), then try it with the arguments reversed.
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2014-12-30T18:59:36Z stassats: character is a bad length indeed
2014-12-30T19:00:03Z mrkkrp: yeah
2014-12-30T19:00:12Z Bicyclidine: a one dimensional character array is (simple-array character (*))
2014-12-30T19:00:17Z nyef: Okay, so missing a length term, yeah.
2014-12-30T19:00:27Z Bicyclidine: simple-vector can't have a type.
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2014-12-30T19:01:32Z Bicyclidine: (simple-vector x) is (simple-array t (x)) and (simple-vector x y) is invalid. it's kind of weird
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2014-12-30T19:03:00Z mrkkrp: so (simple-array character (*)) is better than (simple-array character)
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2014-12-30T19:03:28Z mrkkrp: or they are the same?
2014-12-30T19:03:33Z Bicyclidine: no, simple-array character could be multidimensional.
2014-12-30T19:04:06Z mrkkrp: then (simple-array character (*)) may be faster...
2014-12-30T19:04:39Z nyef: Even faster would put a number in place of that asterisk, but then you're limited to fixed-length strings.
2014-12-30T19:05:05Z mrkkrp: what is the number is 2^32 -1
2014-12-30T19:05:07Z Bicyclidine: (simple-string x) is just (simple-array character (x)), so you might want to check your metrics
2014-12-30T19:05:14Z mrkkrp: does it make sense?
2014-12-30T19:05:26Z Bicyclidine: no, don't fix a length if the length isn't actually fixed
2014-12-30T19:05:31Z mrkkrp: ok
2014-12-30T19:05:40Z Bicyclidine: unless you want all of your strings to take up four billion bytes or so
2014-12-30T19:05:48Z stassats: 3 is a good number
2014-12-30T19:06:00Z mrkkrp: 7 maybe
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2014-12-30T19:06:32Z mrkkrp: or 10 if *extra-long-strings* is T
2014-12-30T19:06:42Z Bicyclidine: it's not a maximum, fyi, it's the exact count. "foo" isn't an array 7
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2014-12-30T19:07:03Z Bicyclidine: you'd need foo\0\0\0\0 or something, more trouble than it's worth probably
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2014-12-30T19:08:31Z mrkkrp: asterisk doesn't help, it's pretty the same
2014-12-30T19:09:25Z Bicyclidine: oh, i was wrong, simple-string isn't simple-array character. fuckin' strings.
2014-12-30T19:09:41Z Bicyclidine: it's like nyef said, a union of arrays of subtypes of character.
2014-12-30T19:10:25Z nyef: Including, on SBCL, NIL. (-:
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2014-12-30T19:11:38Z mrkkrp: how does hash-table-count work ?
2014-12-30T19:12:02Z nyef: (Why? Because U-A-E-T is defined in terms of "upward" motion in a LATTICE of types, BIT and BASE-CHAR are disjoint and both required as specialized array types, and NIL is a subtype of both.)
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2014-12-30T19:12:44Z nyef: mrkkrp: Typically, it's a struct slot reader. Most of the time it doesn't matter HOW it works, only that it does.
2014-12-30T19:12:46Z mrkkrp: does it traverse something or hashtable has some counter and it returns instantly?
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2014-12-30T19:16:13Z ebrasca: Can i make a game without object oriented programing in lisp?
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2014-12-30T19:17:11Z DeadTrickster: no
2014-12-30T19:17:30Z Shinmera: Depends on your definition of OOP
2014-12-30T19:17:46Z Shinmera: If you mean CLOS: Sure you can.
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2014-12-30T19:18:35Z ebrasca: Thx Shinmera
2014-12-30T19:18:41Z axion: ebrasca: of course. head on over to #lispgames with any questions you may have
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2014-12-30T19:20:10Z shka: is climacs something usefull?
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2014-12-30T19:22:49Z ebrasca: shka : yes
2014-12-30T19:23:02Z shka: and in development?
2014-12-30T19:24:17Z stassats: maybe it's useful, but i can't imagine anyone being able to use it
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2014-12-30T19:25:45Z shka: right
2014-12-30T19:26:07Z shka: rewritting emacs would make sense, though
2014-12-30T19:27:40Z Xach: hemlock is that
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2014-12-30T19:50:29Z theseb: shka: fwiw i think the guile emacs is waaaay farther along than any cl port
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2014-12-30T19:53:02Z shka: everything, just no elisp
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2014-12-30T20:01:23Z theseb: shka: what is interesting is the guile emacs will allow more than just lisps....you'd be able to use javascript and other langs in emacs...anything that compiles to scheme
2014-12-30T20:01:36Z theseb: shka: dunno if there is a CL to Scheme compilier
2014-12-30T20:01:59Z stassats: that would be a bit pointless
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2014-12-30T20:02:13Z shka: theseb: and threads?
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2014-12-30T20:03:43Z theseb: stassats: depends how much someone loves their pet language
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2014-12-30T20:03:58Z theseb: shka: google "Guile Emacs" and see for yourself!
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2014-12-30T20:08:50Z shka: theseb: ok guile emacs looks like win
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2014-12-30T20:31:45Z mrkkrp: enough for today, happy hacking!
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2014-12-30T20:40:23Z nikki93: oGMo: everythign is going well
2014-12-30T20:40:40Z nikki93: oGMo: can load #version 150 shaders, can run repl stuffs, can compile while running etc. etc.
2014-12-30T20:40:41Z nikki93: good times
2014-12-30T20:40:49Z nikki93: core profile works
2014-12-30T20:41:02Z nikki93: im so happy!!!!!!11
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2014-12-30T21:01:41Z nikki93: oGMo: where could I put this/ some sort of wiki or such? to tell people how to set up on osx
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2014-12-30T21:39:01Z rpg: Bordeaux-threads question: I am trying to use condition variables to implement gates (used in some ACL code). The ACL code doesn't require use of locks, and I'm not sure why conditions do (or what I should be locking...)
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2014-12-30T21:40:09Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: you're out of luck, pkhuong is absent
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2014-12-30T21:40:21Z rpg: I am starting a process that will wait for someone else to open a gate. So I haven't seized any lock....
2014-12-30T21:40:32Z rpg: but I would do a condition-wait.
2014-12-30T21:40:45Z rpg: Suppose I could simply cons a lock up and grab it, but that seems silly.
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2014-12-30T21:43:15Z H4ns: rpg: a condition variable always requires a mutex that guards access to the resource which it protects, in your case the gate.  you'll have to think of the condition variable and the mutex as a pair.
2014-12-30T21:44:06Z H4ns: rpg: if you always have one writer and one reader, there won't be an issue with a straightforward gate implementation, but if there may be multiple readers or writers, things can become more involved and the mutex will then make more sense.
2014-12-30T21:44:10Z rpg: H4ns: Hmmmm.... The thing is, that there is no resource to be protected! I am just setting up a thread that waits for another thread to ready its execution.
2014-12-30T21:44:25Z H4ns: rpg: the "gate" is what the mutex is going to protect.
2014-12-30T21:44:59Z rpg: H4ns: If that is true, why doesn't condition-notify require a lock, as well?
2014-12-30T21:45:13Z rpg: I.e., the mutex does not, in fact, protect the condition.
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2014-12-30T21:45:15Z H4ns: rpg: because that is how condition variables work.
2014-12-30T21:45:46Z H4ns: rpg: you can implement gates and semaphores using condition variables and mutexes - they are lower-level concepts if you will.
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2014-12-30T21:46:06Z rpg: H4ns: I think I am just trying to set up a trivial channel (that's what a gate really is), and condition-variable is the only way I know of to do this.
2014-12-30T21:46:33Z rpg: s/I think//
2014-12-30T21:46:37Z H4ns: right on.  just create a mutex along it and off you go.
2014-12-30T21:46:46Z rpg: H4ns: Thanks! Will do!
2014-12-30T21:46:54Z oGMo: rpg: "gates"?
2014-12-30T21:47:40Z rpg: oGMo: GATEs are things that Allegro has in its multiprocessing library. They are really a trick to allow efficient detection of when a thread should run.
2014-12-30T21:47:49Z oGMo: rpg: ahh, interesting
2014-12-30T21:48:44Z rpg: So I have one thread that detects when some other thread should be enabled.  The second thread can wait for the gate to "open" and the first thread will open it when appropriate.
2014-12-30T21:49:04Z rpg: This isn't really a resource contention issue, since the two threads are not incompatible.
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2014-12-30T22:28:49Z yenda: is it normal that when I do C-c C-c on a defun in emacs/slime I have a message "compiling (defun....) in the REPL but the function is not updated ?
2014-12-30T22:30:13Z oGMo: what makes you think so?
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2014-12-30T22:33:18Z yenda: the function still had old behavior, I typed it directly in the repl to redefine it and only then it worked
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2014-12-30T22:33:58Z eww2: hi, i'm having problems loading qt with quicklips, (ql:quickload :qt) gives me "Unbound variable: CFFI:DEFCSTRUCT"
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2014-12-30T22:40:20Z Krystof: yenda: at a guess, you have *package* confusion
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2014-12-30T22:52:55Z yenda: Krystof: right, I used quickproject and my functions are in a certain package, I call it directly in the repl so it's actually not the same function, thanks
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2014-12-30T23:28:44Z rpg: Does anyone have an example of the use of :wait-all to make a blocking socket read with iolib?
2014-12-30T23:29:54Z rpg: I'm looking at the docs, and the code, but not quite getting it....
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2014-12-30T23:43:48Z yenda: I have a string of space-separated numbers. Is there a better way than looping through the stringand using parse integer to get the numeric values into a vector ?
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2014-12-30T23:45:04Z Hexstream: yenda: Look into split-sequence.
2014-12-30T23:45:06Z _death: if you don't mind the consing, (map 'vector #'parse-integer (split-sequence #\Space string))
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2014-12-30T23:46:35Z yenda: I fetch split-sequence from cl-utilities with quicklisp ?
2014-12-30T23:46:55Z Bicyclidine: it's its own thing, quickload split-sequence
2014-12-30T23:47:13Z yenda: ok even better
2014-12-30T23:47:15Z yenda: thanks
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2014-12-31T00:17:06Z pjb: /msg minion memo for francogrex: Cannot retrieve URL: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144959 --> 404 Not Found
2014-12-31T00:17:06Z pjb:  
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2014-12-31T00:30:28Z nyef: Okay, did a history-rewrite commit on nq-clim to get github to register the commits against my account.
2014-12-31T00:30:56Z nyef: Also started getting the frame / frame-manager stuff into place.
2014-12-31T00:34:57Z nyef: And realized that I'd forgotten about the whole sheet-with-medium bit and the bounce methods so that I can call medium output functions on sheets and have them Just Work.
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2014-12-31T00:58:06Z pjb: /msg minion memo for francogrex: Cannot retrieve URL: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144961 --> 404 Not Found
2014-12-31T00:58:06Z pjb:  
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2014-12-31T01:26:51Z pjb: ZombieChicken: clisp has a jit compiler.
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2014-12-31T01:35:37Z Xach: nyef: mary chung at 6 seems to be the thing on the 8th
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2014-12-31T01:58:23Z nyef: Xach: Sounds doable. Looking forward to it!
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2014-12-31T02:34:51Z pjb: I knew a programmer who wrote specifications and documentations before even thinking about writing the first line of his hobby projects (a chess player).  Professionaly, he worked on embedded software for tanks.  So I guess not everybody finds it not-funny to write docs.
2014-12-31T02:36:07Z nyef: I find it to be a lot easier to write the documentation first, then write the program, then fix the documentation to match the program.
2014-12-31T02:36:20Z pjb: Definitely.
2014-12-31T02:37:06Z nyef: ... And if you cross a chess program with embedded software for tanks, you might end up with a Bolo.
2014-12-31T02:37:21Z pjb: Only to beautify the documentation with screenshots, you need the program (or at least, the user interface) implemented.
2014-12-31T02:37:36Z pjb: nyef: :-)
2014-12-31T02:37:40Z nyef: As I said, do the edit pass after writing the program. (-:
2014-12-31T02:38:20Z pjb: Yes.
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2014-12-31T03:04:32Z Xach: Yesterday I griped about corman lisp discussions petering out
2014-12-31T03:04:40Z Xach: Today Roger emailed me to get it started again!
2014-12-31T03:04:46Z Xach must gripe about something new and pressing
2014-12-31T03:04:52Z pjb: :-)
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2014-12-31T03:05:05Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-12-31T03:05:06Z minion: beach, memo from pjb: it is incorrect that you don't have the right to do anything with something that has no copyright notice or license: you can distribute patches, and let "users" do to the thing the same things you did to it at home.
2014-12-31T03:05:36Z beach: pjb: right, thanks.
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2014-12-31T03:10:34Z Hexstream: Yes, just as you can do quite a lot of things with one or two hands tied behind your back.
2014-12-31T03:12:01Z nyef: Hello beach.
2014-12-31T03:13:16Z Bicyclidine: heyyyyy beach. i have a small opinion question for ya. i wrote a compiler-macroexpand(-1); do you think it should check for NOTINLINE, or that callers should handle that?
2014-12-31T03:14:07Z nyef: clhs getf
2014-12-31T03:14:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_getf.htm
2014-12-31T03:14:22Z pjb: Hexstream: this is not an argument when you have make diff patch and git.
2014-12-31T03:14:33Z beach: Bicyclidine: I think *some* level should expand it whether NOTINLINE is current or not.
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2014-12-31T03:15:04Z Bicyclidine: Really? Why?
2014-12-31T03:15:15Z Bicyclidine: no, wait, i misunderstood. still curious why though.
2014-12-31T03:15:25Z beach: Bicyclidine: For debugging purposes.
2014-12-31T03:16:13Z Bicyclidine: mm. i think that'll probably be compiler-macroexpand.
2014-12-31T03:16:24Z Hexstream: pjb: It's an argument if you wisely recognize that being able to work with stuff in the normal unimpeded ways like putting it up on github is valuable.
2014-12-31T03:16:27Z nydel: g'evening #lisp
2014-12-31T03:16:28Z nyef: General separation of mechanism from policy?
2014-12-31T03:16:29Z beach: Bicyclidine: Sounds reasonable to me.
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2014-12-31T03:16:50Z beach: nyef: Yeah.
2014-12-31T03:16:58Z nyef: Sounds good to me.
2014-12-31T03:18:13Z Bicyclidine: it's kind of ambiguous for me mentally, since i don't think (defmacro foo ...) (flet ((foo ...)) [macroexpand '(foo ...) in this environment]) would expand
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2014-12-31T03:19:09Z beach: That's different though, because in the last situation you have shadowing.
2014-12-31T03:19:31Z Bicyclidine: well, right, the point is that it's just lexenv information.
2014-12-31T03:20:08Z Bicyclidine: with shadowing or with notinline.
2014-12-31T03:20:56Z beach: You could introduce a layer below compiler-macroexpand that does the mechanism and have compiler-macroexpand do the policy.
2014-12-31T03:21:14Z Bicyclidine: implementationwise it's different, since having compiler-macro-function return NIL just from NOTINLINE wouldn't make sense
2014-12-31T03:21:25Z beach: Right.
2014-12-31T03:21:31Z nydel: i'm looking for advice or a doc or tutorial on assembling a team for an open source project - anyone know of anything? my multi-user common lisp has achieved minimal functionality, woo! but it needs a team.
2014-12-31T03:22:02Z Hexstream: nydel: Be extremely awesome on your own, and then people will rush to help you.
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2014-12-31T03:22:40Z nydel: Hexstream: i know, i think i just needed to hear it
2014-12-31T03:22:44Z Bicyclidine: ok, i think i'll go with that. any suggestions for the name of really-and-truly-compiler-macroexpand?
2014-12-31T03:23:04Z nydel: but MUCLR /is/ extremely awesome!
2014-12-31T03:23:27Z Bicyclidine: i guess it's kind of weird, since there might be a compiler macro but it refuses to expand...
2014-12-31T03:23:38Z beach: Bicyclidine: Naming things is one of the hardest part of programming.
2014-12-31T03:23:50Z beach: s
2014-12-31T03:23:53Z Bicyclidine: i'll find a cache to invalidate
2014-12-31T03:24:12Z nyef: ... I'll go find an off-by-one error. d-:
2014-12-31T03:24:31Z nydel: beach: what naming techniques do you hold dear personally?
2014-12-31T03:24:41Z Bicyclidine: i'll do and off-by-one _and_ name: compiler-macroexpand-2
2014-12-31T03:24:58Z nyef: Bicyclidine: Ah, like PROG2?
2014-12-31T03:25:00Z beach: nydel: I leave the keyboard, lie down somewhere and think real hard about it.
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2014-12-31T03:25:47Z nydel: beach: rename my shared-space REPL project currently called muclr acronym for multi-user common lisp repl. first thing that comes to mind.
2014-12-31T03:25:52Z beach: nydel: I want my names to be short and pertinent.
2014-12-31T03:26:16Z beach: nydel: Well, in this case, it was the name of a single function.
2014-12-31T03:26:51Z Hexstream: Personally I favor pertinence over concision in naming.
2014-12-31T03:27:13Z Hexstream: (Of course both at once is really great if you can manage.)
2014-12-31T03:27:28Z nyef: It turns out that I have no defined mechanism to go from an XLIB:WINDOW to an NQ-CLIM:SHEET, which is somewhat important for event handling.
2014-12-31T03:27:44Z beach: Hexstream: Example: I shortened "space-requirement" in CLIM II to "sprawl" in CLIM3/CLIMatis.
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2014-12-31T03:27:56Z nydel: Hexstream: both are important but i think the same way. i need to know what something is. function (pertinence) before form (brevity)
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2014-12-31T03:28:15Z nyef: But I've realized that I can define an :around method on REALIZE-MIRROR, specialized to CLX-PORT, to store the sheet on the window plist.
2014-12-31T03:28:19Z nydel: sprawl.. ooo that is sexily concise
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2014-12-31T03:28:48Z nydel: this is why i keep wordnet loaded up while i work hehe
2014-12-31T03:29:25Z beach: nyef: What does CLIM II do?
2014-12-31T03:29:34Z nyef: Leaves it carefully unspecified.
2014-12-31T03:29:39Z beach: Hmm.
2014-12-31T03:30:07Z nyef: Seriously, it's part of the responsibilities of the PORT, thus not specified.
2014-12-31T03:30:35Z nydel: beach - what would you call a function that is read-line but chops off any \\r at the end?
2014-12-31T03:30:45Z beach: nyef: Yes, and in that case, I think it should "morally" be stored in the port object somehow.
2014-12-31T03:31:29Z nyef: beach: The other option is to set it up in the primary method, but I override the primary at one point.
2014-12-31T03:31:31Z beach: nydel: I think I just told you that this is one of the hardest part of programming and it would require me to go lie down and think about it for quite some time.  So in the best case, you will have to wait. :)
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2014-12-31T03:32:10Z nyef: nydel: If you need such a function, I'd question your choice of external-format.
2014-12-31T03:32:13Z Bicyclidine: maybe i'll just wait to see if i ever get users, and see what they think.
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2014-12-31T03:32:49Z loke: nydel: READ-STRING, and it already exists
2014-12-31T03:33:04Z loke: nyef: What does external-format have to do with line endings?
2014-12-31T03:33:07Z nyef: beach: I rewrote history on nq-clim to fix the author and committer information.
2014-12-31T03:33:35Z nyef: beach: And the first bits of the application-frame stuff is in.
2014-12-31T03:33:41Z nyef: ... are in? Whatever.
2014-12-31T03:33:42Z nydel: will read-string work to read from a stream in a threaded loop
2014-12-31T03:33:59Z beach: Bicyclidine: You could use a #\! in the name of the "really-and-truly" version.
2014-12-31T03:34:15Z nydel: actually read-string doesn't seem to be defined in my sbcl
2014-12-31T03:34:21Z Hexstream: read-line...
2014-12-31T03:34:23Z loke: nydel: Umm... Yes? although I assume that your question is actually different from what you asked.
2014-12-31T03:34:28Z Bicyclidine: blah, hungarian notation. ish. sorta kinda.
2014-12-31T03:34:40Z beach: nyef: Progress!  Excellent!
2014-12-31T03:35:03Z beach: Bicyclidine: More like Scheme-ish.
2014-12-31T03:35:13Z loke: Sorry. READ-LINE
2014-12-31T03:35:15Z Bicyclidine: yeah, the different meaning would confuse me.
2014-12-31T03:35:43Z Bicyclidine: the fact that you're here reminds me that i should add a specialp function. so i'll do that.
2014-12-31T03:36:03Z nydel: loke: (read-line stream) often evaluates down to a string with a ^M (\\r) at the end of it.
2014-12-31T03:36:31Z loke: Argh. Sorry. My mind read \n when you wrote \r.
2014-12-31T03:36:36Z nydel: so my (read-line2) just chops that off so i can more easily get to string comparison
2014-12-31T03:36:47Z nydel: loke: ah.
2014-12-31T03:36:47Z loke: how about SANITISED-READ-LINE :-)
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2014-12-31T03:37:14Z loke: READ-LINE-NO-\\R
2014-12-31T03:37:27Z loke: |READ-LINE-NO-\r|
2014-12-31T03:37:36Z nyef: How about... fixing your external-format, which should include line-termination options?
2014-12-31T03:38:08Z loke: nyef: Well it doesn.t External formats deals with encodings. Line endings are not parts of the encodings
2014-12-31T03:38:33Z nydel: loke: i went with (clean-line &optional (regex-string "\\r") ...) and then (read-line2) which is (clean-line (read-line))
2014-12-31T03:38:50Z nydel: if i rename read-line2 to read-line-no-\\r i think that is good!
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2014-12-31T03:39:08Z nyef: loke: http://weitz.de/flexi-streams/#external-format-eol-style strongly suggests otherwise.
2014-12-31T03:39:16Z loke: I sometimes quite enjoy being able to use arbitrary characters in symbols. When it makes sense
2014-12-31T03:39:45Z nydel: or read-line-without-carriage ?
2014-12-31T03:40:01Z loke: nydel: read-line-no-cr, in that case
2014-12-31T03:40:10Z nydel: loke: winner!
2014-12-31T03:40:13Z loke: cr is a very common abbreviation for character 13
2014-12-31T03:40:23Z nydel: read-line-sans-cr? too pretentious?
2014-12-31T03:40:28Z loke: nydel: yes
2014-12-31T03:40:32Z nydel: just kidding going with no-cr
2014-12-31T03:41:31Z loke: nydel: by the way, a faster way of removing that CR would be to use (STRING-RIGHT-TRIM (string #\Return) Value)
2014-12-31T03:42:27Z loke: no need to use regexes there (even though cl-ppcrew is very fast)
2014-12-31T03:42:30Z nydel: loke: but then my #'clean-string won't take a regex argument. hmm, does it need to
2014-12-31T03:42:55Z nydel: yeah, it doesn't need to. if it does i'll rewrite it to take them.
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2014-12-31T03:43:10Z hagirikan: beach,
2014-12-31T03:43:11Z nydel: super-hepful stuff loke you rock
2014-12-31T03:43:12Z hagirikan: hello =)
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2014-12-31T03:43:43Z hagiri: hello all.
2014-12-31T03:43:45Z hagiri: ..
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2014-12-31T03:56:27Z Bicyclidine: anyone good with fiveam's weird internals? i have an unreachable code warning from a test and don't know why.
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2014-12-31T03:59:25Z Bicyclidine: failing that, if anyone has a guess about getting sbcl to output as many warnings as possible, because it warns when the test is compiled but not when i compile the code myself.
2014-12-31T03:59:32Z oleo: stack failure ?
2014-12-31T03:59:43Z oleo: it fall of the stack ?
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2014-12-31T03:59:55Z oleo: unreachable can mean many things.....
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2014-12-31T04:00:15Z Bicyclidine: No.
2014-12-31T04:00:20Z nyef: Bicyclidine: unreachable code shouldn't be a warning, it's more typically a note...  And are you compiling via SLIME or pasting straight into the REPL or something like that?
2014-12-31T04:00:42Z Bicyclidine: oh, right, a note not a warning.
2014-12-31T04:01:02Z nyef: Okay, a note typically won't cause a build failure.
2014-12-31T04:01:12Z Bicyclidine: It's not a build failure. I'm just trying to figure out what's unreachable.
2014-12-31T04:01:33Z Bicyclidine: i wouldn't want a test that's only "succeeding" because i messed it up, and all.
2014-12-31T04:01:51Z nyef: ... fire up sb-cover, run the test, look at the results, and you'll at least know what ISN'T unreachable.
2014-12-31T04:02:25Z nyef: (My test driver at work builds a full separate copy of the entire system, just to get coverage data.)
2014-12-31T04:02:52Z Bicyclidine: How do I use this exactly? require sb-cover, run the test, sb-cover:report?
2014-12-31T04:03:14Z nyef: There's some magic that needs doing before you compile the test case.
2014-12-31T04:03:24Z Bicyclidine: oh good.
2014-12-31T04:03:26Z nyef: The Fine Manual should have some details.
2014-12-31T04:03:46Z Bicyclidine: ok, thanks.
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2014-12-31T04:06:52Z Bicyclidine: Hey, this is a neat thing. It doesn't do anything with COMPILE calls though. Guess I'll have to be more old-fashioned.
2014-12-31T04:07:15Z nyef: Yeah, probably needs COMPILE-FILE.
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2014-12-31T04:08:33Z nyef: One thing that I'd like to have with sb-cover is a way to tell the compiler to invert the reach sense of a form, so that it normally reads as having been executed, but if it ever gets executed then it is marked as not having been executed.
2014-12-31T04:08:47Z nyef: Which I'd use for calls to ASSERT-NOTREACHED. (-:
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2014-12-31T04:12:58Z Bicyclidine: bleh. explicitly compiled macro form expanding to a macrolet with a macro that calls macroexpand is too much. just gonna hope it's nothing important.
2014-12-31T04:17:23Z pjb: -
2014-12-31T04:18:12Z loke: Bicyclidine: SBCL can give you very useful no-reached messages
2014-12-31T04:18:42Z Bicyclidine: it can, but it is presently not.
2014-12-31T04:18:52Z loke: Especially things like having a typecase what gives un notreached for some clauses becacuse it figured out that the argument can never have that type
2014-12-31T04:19:18Z loke: Bicyclidine: how come? If SBCL detects that something is noreached, it really is notreached
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2014-12-31T04:19:57Z Bicyclidine: Because I don't know what is not reached. Behold: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145006
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2014-12-31T04:23:53Z Bicyclidine: if the problem is what i think it is it's nothing to worry about, so whatever i guess.
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2014-12-31T04:36:53Z nell: have any of you seen the movie 'her' ?
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2014-12-31T04:52:48Z nydel: nell: did you just see the post on TI
2014-12-31T04:53:01Z nydel: i've been meaning to watch it ever since i saw TI wrote about it
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2014-12-31T04:53:51Z nell: TI ?
2014-12-31T04:54:06Z nell: I'm not familiar, but I have been meaning to watch it for a long time and i finally got around to it tnite
2014-12-31T04:54:10Z Hexstream struggles to see the relation to Common Lisp.
2014-12-31T04:54:16Z nell: im exactly halfway in now and its very interesting
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2014-12-31T04:54:59Z nyef: Only link that comes to mind is the Explorer.
2014-12-31T04:55:58Z Bicyclidine: not known for its writing skills.
2014-12-31T04:56:04Z beach: Yay, SICL LOOP passes the (non-error) tests for FOR/AS-IN/ON!
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2014-12-31T05:02:24Z nyef: Okay, rough plan for tomorrow: Add a MANAGEABLE-FRAME-MIXIN that defines a FRAME-TOP-LEVEL-SHEET slot. From there, define the start of the whole frame-pane thing and the space composition pass of the layout protocol.
2014-12-31T05:03:24Z beach: nyef: Looks like a good plan.
2014-12-31T05:04:00Z nyef: I'll end up with a pane that gets allocated only so that it can provide layout information (not to be connected to anything else or shown on the screen), but it'll be a good hook to hang things on later.
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2014-12-31T05:06:20Z nyef: From there I should be able to fix up the worst of the event-handling damage, arrange for the pane to get mapped, rough in an actual frame-manager class...
2014-12-31T05:09:13Z beach: "damage" as in something you created yourself or as in defined by CLIM II?
2014-12-31T05:10:47Z nyef: More a matter of graft vs. host syndrome. The event-handling stuff was built for a single-window program working with CLX directly, and now it's part of a multi-window system based on an abstraction layer.
2014-12-31T05:11:12Z nyef: Because there was only one window, there was no need to do different things based on which window the event was for.
2014-12-31T05:11:31Z beach: So it has to do with the origin as a "little hack"?
2014-12-31T05:11:39Z nyef: Yes.
2014-12-31T05:11:43Z beach: Got it.
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2014-12-31T05:15:48Z beach: So you plan to have an X11 window per sheet, rather than a single X11 window for the application?
2014-12-31T05:16:11Z nyef: For the time being, an X11 window per sheet.
2014-12-31T05:16:33Z nyef: Though I'm probably going to have to support operating purely in terms of a single top-level window as well.
2014-12-31T05:17:37Z nyef: (Basically, normal sheets don't need to have a direct mirror in the spec, only the grafts do and certain backend-dependent sheets may.)
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2014-12-31T05:18:07Z beach: Yeah.  And some backends only handle a window per application.
2014-12-31T05:18:08Z nyef: But getting that to work means dealing with regions.
2014-12-31T05:18:28Z nyef: Mmm. MacOS is a classic example of only having toplevel windows.
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2014-12-31T05:19:54Z beach: The very general regions in CLIM II are kind of bogus because there are functions that can not be implemented for all regions, and then with the pane stuff, the CLIM II spec seems to require that the associated regions are rectangular.
2014-12-31T05:20:35Z nyef: Yeah, the CLIM II "silica" layer is at least somewhat bogus due to the geometry and design-based drawing model.
2014-12-31T05:20:56Z nyef: I'm not even convinced about the transformations, at that.
2014-12-31T05:21:24Z beach: They are very elegant, but they just don't work in most cases.
2014-12-31T05:21:41Z nyef: Exactly.
2014-12-31T05:22:02Z nyef: Hence my insistence on not conforming completely to the spec. (-:
2014-12-31T05:22:23Z beach: Yeah, I know what you mean.  That's why I started CLIM3/CLIMatis too.
2014-12-31T05:22:58Z nyef: But the upper levels have some very interesting pieces, even if the specification is some mix of incomplete, inconsistent, or just plain wrong in places.
2014-12-31T05:23:12Z beach: I totally agree.
2014-12-31T05:23:15Z nyef: Oh, and some parts duplicate each other.
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2014-12-31T05:29:21Z pjb: nell: any movie without gasoline explosions cannot be bad.
2014-12-31T05:30:33Z nyef: ... (not gasoline-explosions) => (not bad)?
2014-12-31T05:31:02Z nyef: That seems... somewhat unsupportable.
2014-12-31T05:31:20Z beach: You need some universal quantifiers there.
2014-12-31T05:31:35Z nyef: Yeah, yeah.
2014-12-31T05:32:09Z nyef: I don't have an upside-down-A key on my keyboard, and remounting the keycap is just too much of a nuisance this late in the day. d-:
2014-12-31T05:32:52Z beach: heh.
2014-12-31T05:33:09Z pjb: nyef: of course you have it!  just type: C-x 8 RET for all RET --> ∀
2014-12-31T05:34:10Z nyef: ... But that doesn't work in XChat.
2014-12-31T05:34:34Z pjb: What are you doing with Xchat, when there are at least a quarter dozen irc client in emacs?
2014-12-31T05:35:29Z beach: We need to add C-x 8 RET to beirc.
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2014-12-31T05:40:21Z nyef: Okay, sleep beckons.
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2014-12-31T05:45:51Z beach: I am very excited about this "extrinsic HIR compiler" environment that I am creating, though I don't know what the main use for it will be.  Basically, it creates a complete SICL environment within a host Common Lisp system, using the host compiler and host data types, but functions, macros etc. are all from SICL.
2014-12-31T05:46:59Z beach: I am wondering whether I should port ASDF and SWANK to it for instance.  I am also wondering whether I can create a full SICL debugger in this environment.
2014-12-31T05:47:30Z beach: There are some HUGE advantages to having things run inside a host Common Lisp system; in particular for debugging things.
2014-12-31T05:49:49Z beach: pjb: Also, this "extrinsic HIR compiler" environment would be sufficient for starting experiments with LispOS.
2014-12-31T05:50:31Z beach: I haven't worked too hard on performance, but given that the host compiler is used, it should be possible to make it fairly fast.
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2014-12-31T06:55:11Z nydel: if i wanna do (nconc '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) but with the argument '((1 2 3)(4 5 6)) instead of separate lists, is there a one-liner?
2014-12-31T06:55:52Z nydel: assume the argument list to contain a length larger than 2, at least 10 or some trivial number
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2014-12-31T06:56:06Z beach: nydel: Also, you can't modify constant lists.
2014-12-31T06:57:22Z pjb: nydel: therefore: (apply (function nconc) (mapcar (function copy-list) '((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (7 8 9)))) --> (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
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2014-12-31T06:57:47Z nydel: what if it doesn't need to be nconc, i'm happy to concatenate
2014-12-31T06:58:03Z beach: nydel: (reduce #'nconc list :from-end t)
2014-12-31T06:58:25Z beach: nydel: In that case (reduce #'append list :from-end t)
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2014-12-31T06:59:03Z pjb: then (apply (function concatenate) 'list '((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (7 8 9))) --> (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
2014-12-31T06:59:16Z pjb: reduce append is bad because it keeps the last element uncopied.
2014-12-31T06:59:16Z nydel: re reduce - really beach? i need to look that up, i don't know what i'm reading there
2014-12-31T06:59:21Z nydel: i always forget append exists
2014-12-31T06:59:48Z nydel: thank you very kindly beach, pjb
2014-12-31T06:59:54Z pjb: not counting that reduce append would be O(n^2) unless the implementation had a rather nifty compiler-macro on reduce.
2014-12-31T07:00:12Z beach: pjb: Hence the :from-end t.
2014-12-31T07:00:29Z pjb: Oh right.
2014-12-31T07:01:04Z pjb: But perhaps we'd need: (reduce #'append list :from-end t :initial-value '()) to enfore copying of all elements of the list.
2014-12-31T07:01:35Z beach: If that is desired.
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2014-12-31T07:02:00Z pjb: Compare: (let ((list '((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (7 8 9)))) (list list (reduce #'append list :from-end t :initial-value '())))  vs. (let ((list '((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (7 8 9)))) (list list (reduce #'append list :from-end t )))
2014-12-31T07:02:07Z pjb: (with *print-circle* = t)
2014-12-31T07:03:03Z nydel: fun, there's always so many ways to do something when it involves a taste of lambda
2014-12-31T07:03:35Z pjb: concatenate would probably be the clearest option in this case.
2014-12-31T07:04:16Z beach: Except it might run into the limit on the number of arguments.
2014-12-31T07:04:19Z nydel: wait what in the world /is/ reduce, just a function? or a special form
2014-12-31T07:04:25Z Bicyclidine: a function.
2014-12-31T07:04:30Z Bicyclidine: it's just a fold.
2014-12-31T07:04:35Z beach: clhs reduce
2014-12-31T07:04:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_reduce.htm
2014-12-31T07:05:52Z nydel: oh wow
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2014-12-31T07:06:15Z nydel: are there other everyday fold functions built into cl spec
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2014-12-31T07:07:05Z nydel: wait i see, reduce is used to do whatever kind of functional folding you wanna do
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2014-12-31T07:07:09Z Bicyclidine: reduce does most of it, yeah.
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2014-12-31T07:08:18Z nydel: i need to stop remembering entire fields of mathematics that have slipped my mind else i'm going to keep rewriting every one of my projects from scratch
2014-12-31T07:08:24Z pjb: Yes.  Since we were presented a 2-element list, I assumed the length was known to be less than call-argument-limit.
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2014-12-31T07:09:18Z nydel: in this case it's actually probably several hundred elements in the list. each a list.
2014-12-31T07:09:32Z pjb: Then reduce append :from-end t is the right thing to do.
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2014-12-31T07:09:52Z pjb: with :initial-value '() to ensure copying all the elements.
2014-12-31T07:10:01Z nydel: seems to be the most functional readable concise & pragmatic
2014-12-31T07:10:20Z nydel: muchly appreciated all
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2014-12-31T07:12:10Z kuimacro: how to translate a char to string
2014-12-31T07:12:34Z nydel: (string #\h)
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2014-12-31T07:12:58Z kuimacro: thanks
2014-12-31T07:13:27Z nydel: yvw
2014-12-31T07:13:57Z beach: Time to get to work!
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2014-12-31T07:14:05Z loke: nydel: That's far too simple
2014-12-31T07:14:09Z kuimacro: is there a way to translate symbol to string?
2014-12-31T07:14:22Z pjb: What does thast mean?
2014-12-31T07:14:30Z loke: (with-output-to-string (out) (write-char #\h))
2014-12-31T07:14:38Z pjb: (let ((sym "hello")) sym) --> "hello" sym translated to string.
2014-12-31T07:14:42Z loke: Sorry, I can't make it more complicated than that
2014-12-31T07:14:54Z pjb: (with-output-to-string (out) (write-char #\h out))
2014-12-31T07:15:01Z loke: pjb: of course
2014-12-31T07:15:17Z stassats: i would just "h"
2014-12-31T07:15:17Z minion: stassats, memo from pjb: you have to account for fractal-length vectors! :-)
2014-12-31T07:15:17Z minion: stassats, memo from pjb: (princ #\newline) IS NOT (terpri) the former returns #\newline, the later NIL.
2014-12-31T07:15:23Z pjb: kuimacro: if you can say what you really want, it will be easier to find the function you need.
2014-12-31T07:15:52Z mrkkrp: kuimacro: how about (string 'foo) ?
2014-12-31T07:15:52Z minion: mrkkrp, memo from pjb: defconstant doesn't define a constant.  It defines a variable, that you should not modify, because its value will be copied inline in the code that uses it.  It's a constant _variable_.  You can safely bind a constant variable only to characters, numbers and symbols. (the only objects that will be EQL to "copies" of them obtained when reading them again, be it in the same image or a new one.
2014-12-31T07:15:56Z loke: (with-open-file (f "/tmp/foo" :direction :output) (write-char #\h out)) (uiop/stream:read-file-string "/tmp/foo"))
2014-12-31T07:16:07Z pjb: kuimacro: there is an infinite number of functions from the symbol set to the string set.
2014-12-31T07:16:13Z pjb: kuimacro: which one do you want?
2014-12-31T07:17:11Z pjb: loke: you have a potential bug there, of another process writes /tmp/foo at the wrong time.
2014-12-31T07:17:25Z loke: pjb: Right. We clearly need file locking
2014-12-31T07:17:36Z kuimacro: what mrkkrp says is what i really want
2014-12-31T07:17:37Z nydel: loke: i'm new to the other side of support, but yeah way too simple, & i should be able to #lisp-answer that one by now not just answer it
2014-12-31T07:17:57Z loke: nydel: That's why I offered a better (i.e. more complex) solution :-)
2014-12-31T07:18:05Z pjb: kuimacro: in that case, I'd prefer to use (symbol-name 'foo).
2014-12-31T07:18:20Z kuimacro: (string 'foo)
2014-12-31T07:18:29Z loke: I'm just doing what the web-jockey world is doing. Have you guys seen their workflows for building bed-based applications?
2014-12-31T07:18:44Z loke: web
2014-12-31T07:18:55Z pjb: kuimacro: is foo a string designator by nature or a random symbol you need the name of?
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2014-12-31T07:19:07Z pjb: ie. could foo be actually "FOO" or #\F ?
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2014-12-31T07:19:37Z kuimacro: pjb: the symbol's name
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2014-12-31T07:19:51Z pjb: hence symbol-name :-)
2014-12-31T07:20:06Z loke: Always good to write code that says what you mean.
2014-12-31T07:20:27Z loke: c.f. CAR/FIRST and NOT/NULL
2014-12-31T07:21:14Z kuimacro: pjb: it doesn't looks correct
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2014-12-31T07:22:12Z kuimacro: pjb: if i (defparameter *a*), i want "*a*"
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2014-12-31T07:22:26Z pjb: Then: (string-downcase '*a*)
2014-12-31T07:22:36Z pjb: see, there's a ton of different mappings.
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2014-12-31T07:23:16Z kuimacro: pjb: sorry, i forget a quote
2014-12-31T07:23:19Z loke: kuimacro: *a* refers to a symbol named *A*. If you want a symbol with lower-case name, you have to define it as such. For example by typing |*a*| or *\a*
2014-12-31T07:23:25Z pjb: kuimacro: where?
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2014-12-31T07:23:58Z pjb: kuimacro: you forgot a value expression in defparameter, which takes two arguments at least.
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2014-12-31T07:27:02Z nydel: this may or may not be relevant but: when starting out with lisp, almost every time i thought i needed to convert a symbol to a string, i was doing something wrong.
2014-12-31T07:28:50Z pjb: Indeed.  It's very rare to need a string starting and ending with stars.
2014-12-31T07:29:26Z nydel: the stars made me chime in.
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2014-12-31T07:31:43Z nydel: the nice people here tell me they're a-holes somewhat often, but i've found that taking some time to concisely summarize my intentions yields very thoughtful & kind replies, and it is worth taking an hour to phrase something for that rather than write things incorrectly for lack of knowing what to ask.
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2014-12-31T07:38:36Z nydel: or (string-downcase (symbol-name '*a*)) - and http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/strings.html#symbols - but i can't imagine any good coming from those.
2014-12-31T07:39:00Z stassats: string-downcase works on symbols
2014-12-31T07:39:00Z H4ns: symbols are string designators, so (string-downcase '*a*)
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2014-12-31T07:46:30Z nydel: if i've a question like "why are all lisp symbols capitalized" or "why can't symbol x be different from symbol X" is there an obvious thing i should read that explains it?
2014-12-31T07:46:43Z stassats: history
2014-12-31T07:46:48Z stassats: old lisp did that
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2014-12-31T07:46:56Z pjb: nydel: the chapter about the lisp reader
2014-12-31T07:47:38Z pjb: and about syntax: chapter 2, and chapter 23.
2014-12-31T07:47:51Z Zhivago: nydel: The historical reasons are often obscure -- CLTL2 is reasonably chatty about them compared with the hyperspec.
2014-12-31T07:48:17Z Zhivago: The capitalization issue is due to very old terminals that only supported upper-case.
2014-12-31T07:48:42Z akkad: READTABLE is interesting
2014-12-31T07:48:42Z minion: akkad, memo from pjb: (defconstant otherwise t) (cond ((= 1 0) 'hi) (otherwise 'lo)) --> LO
2014-12-31T07:49:10Z akkad: minion you are now turing complete
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2014-12-31T07:49:41Z stassats: same deal with *read-base* and *print-base*, maclisp used octal
2014-12-31T07:49:59Z pjb: happily, the default for *read-base* is not 8.
2014-12-31T07:50:07Z stassats: minion: are you turing complete?
2014-12-31T07:50:07Z minion: maybe
2014-12-31T07:50:11Z akkad: *FEATURES* helps identify history
2014-12-31T07:50:24Z akkad: is there a comprehensive history of the lisps?
2014-12-31T07:50:58Z stassats: hopl-2.pdf
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2014-12-31T07:51:41Z akkad: thanks stassats
2014-12-31T07:52:05Z pjb: akkad: yes, JMC has written something.  There are other papers too.
2014-12-31T07:52:59Z nydel: http://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/HOPL2-Uncut.pdf doesn't seem to address it but does effect a pleasant sense of uh lisp patriotism in the reader i'm finding
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2014-12-31T07:54:26Z stassats: were you born in the lisp land?
2014-12-31T07:54:52Z nydel: i was born autistic, i.e. yes
2014-12-31T07:55:06Z nydel: wait is the lisp land a real thing
2014-12-31T07:56:18Z nydel: because if so then i want to go to there.
2014-12-31T07:56:39Z stassats: it's ultra conservative, only people born there are allowed
2014-12-31T07:56:49Z Quadrescence: lisp land is slow and interpreted too
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2014-12-31T09:37:49Z akkad: lisp land vs kernel and user?
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2014-12-31T09:47:36Z pjb: akkad: in lisp land, there's no distinction between kernel and user.
2014-12-31T09:47:56Z pjb: Either you have a reference to the object, or you don't. That's all the protection you need.
2014-12-31T09:48:13Z pjb: (hence my very anti-FFI stand).
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2014-12-31T09:51:25Z stassats: what does FFI have to do with protection?
2014-12-31T09:52:06Z pjb: random addresses.
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2014-12-31T09:53:49Z stassats: that's not FFI
2014-12-31T09:54:33Z pjb: stassats: Why do you play idiot? http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/make_002dpointer.html
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2014-12-31T09:55:13Z pjb: And even if that didn't exist, the mere fact that you're able to call out to code compiled by an unsafe compiler breaks it.
2014-12-31T09:55:34Z stassats: right, a normal person wouldn't talk to pjb
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2014-12-31T09:55:47Z stassats: i should abstain
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2014-12-31T09:57:21Z pjb: Interesting. I present a technical fact, and you answer ab hominem.
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2014-12-31T09:59:27Z stassats: i profusely apologize, i guess only you can do that
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2014-12-31T10:01:59Z hitecnologys: stassats, pjb: could you please move your arguments to different place?
2014-12-31T10:02:51Z hitecnologys: Because this channel is about CL, not about finding out who's playing idiot.
2014-12-31T10:03:15Z Zhivago: But you're a natural. :)
2014-12-31T10:04:57Z stassats: c.l.l would be a good place, there's a lot of people without manners there already
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2014-12-31T10:17:26Z pjb`: hitecnologys: I'm not arguing who's playing idiot. I've identified him.  Just wondering why.
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2014-12-31T10:29:20Z akkad: so what do most people who get paid to do CL professionally work on?
2014-12-31T10:29:32Z Zhivago: pjb: Is it pjb?
2014-12-31T10:30:06Z stassats: akkad: web sites, it's all about web sites nowadays
2014-12-31T10:30:45Z Zhivago: And aeroplanes.
2014-12-31T10:30:48Z stassats: akkad: on the internet, nobody will now that you're using lisp
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2014-12-31T10:31:10Z akkad: they will all gnow
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2014-12-31T10:32:09Z akkad: oic AllegroServer?
2014-12-31T10:32:25Z stassats: hunchentoot
2014-12-31T10:32:57Z akkad: ssl termination on it? or nginx?
2014-12-31T10:33:15Z stassats: nginx
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2014-12-31T10:33:38Z stassats: you can do either
2014-12-31T10:34:32Z akkad: I played with clack and restas.
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2014-12-31T10:35:50Z stassats: restas uses hunchentoot, and clack something homegrown
2014-12-31T10:36:45Z akkad: soon Elnode will replace all this
2014-12-31T10:36:59Z stassats: will it?
2014-12-31T10:37:04Z akkad: :P
2014-12-31T10:38:30Z akkad: love the single binary web sites
2014-12-31T10:38:42Z stassats: so, single or binary?
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2014-12-31T10:39:13Z akkad: e.g. single binary delivered executable hosting all the content directly. just testing it.
2014-12-31T10:39:27Z akkad: it's pooh.
2014-12-31T10:40:12Z akkad: novelty so to speak
2014-12-31T10:41:48Z hitecnologys: It's not very practical.
2014-12-31T10:42:02Z hitecnologys: What if you needed to change something quickly? Rebuild? Redeploy? Horrible.
2014-12-31T10:42:05Z akkad: no, it's not. I just use it for silly shit like jsonip.org
2014-12-31T10:42:28Z stassats: hitecnologys: people distributed applications for some time, web server could be just an UI
2014-12-31T10:43:05Z stassats: akkad: "The One True Editor":"Emacs"
2014-12-31T10:43:25Z hitecnologys: stassats: maybe. Still, in current state, it's not very usable for me.
2014-12-31T10:43:25Z akkad: yeah it was running on elnode/Thinatra originally
2014-12-31T10:43:27Z stassats: akkad: this is worse then the chandelier in clisp
2014-12-31T10:44:04Z akkad: I don't get the reference. what does the chandelier do?
2014-12-31T10:44:14Z akkad: I've seen it, just not sure why it's ther
2014-12-31T10:44:21Z stassats: it's a religious symbol
2014-12-31T10:44:36Z stassats: akkad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menorah_%28Hanukkah%29
2014-12-31T10:44:45Z akkad: Candle Arbre
2014-12-31T10:44:56Z stassats: oh wait, that's 9, clisp has 7
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2014-12-31T10:45:00Z hitecnologys: stassats: actually, having UIs and web sites done using same technology would be good if API is sane and optimized since they're basically the same thing but in different wrappers.
2014-12-31T10:45:03Z stassats: akkad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menorah_%28Temple%29
2014-12-31T10:45:23Z akkad: clisp is gnu right?
2014-12-31T10:45:32Z stassats: yes
2014-12-31T10:45:41Z stassats: got tricked into gpl
2014-12-31T10:45:47Z akkad: ahh
2014-12-31T10:46:01Z akkad: well once we get sbcl/bsd to convert to gnu we'll have world domination
2014-12-31T10:46:09Z p_l: the old readline trick was used
2014-12-31T10:46:37Z stassats: akkad: don't dream of it
2014-12-31T10:47:40Z akkad: good to hear :P
2014-12-31T10:50:07Z mrkkrp: I see people here are against idea of free software
2014-12-31T10:50:27Z stassats: no, just against gpl
2014-12-31T10:50:49Z mrkkrp: against free software (not opensource) then
2014-12-31T10:51:07Z stassats: no, gpl doesn't hold monopoly for free software
2014-12-31T10:52:11Z akkad hugs stassats
2014-12-31T10:52:18Z mrkkrp: if you don't forbind create proprietary software with help of your program, you're doing things against freedoms of users
2014-12-31T10:52:28Z akkad: too many gpl zealots in #emacs
2014-12-31T10:52:35Z mrkkrp: well, but I think it's off-topic here
2014-12-31T10:52:38Z stassats: mrkkrp: please, preach your gpl propaganda somewhere else
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2014-12-31T11:03:34Z pjb: stassats: who are your users?  So we may preach _them_.
2014-12-31T11:04:50Z pjb: And give that it's an element of choice or reject of CL implementations, it's perfectly on topic IMO.
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2014-12-31T11:18:16Z p_l: well, I very very like the fact that we have good implementations etc. in public domain
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2014-12-31T11:21:05Z H4ns: p_l: you are an immoral person because you are taking away the freedom from your users.
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2014-12-31T11:22:30Z p_l: H4ns: ... do you think I could get that on badge for next ECLM?
2014-12-31T11:22:54Z H4ns: p_l: you'd be welcome to wear it
2014-12-31T11:23:19Z H4ns: although at this point, it is pretty doubtful if there will be a next eclm :(
2014-12-31T11:24:07Z p_l: :(
2014-12-31T11:24:15Z p_l: damn, right when I have regularly paying job
2014-12-31T11:24:16Z akkad: I know sbcl is bsd/pd, what is pure public domain?
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2014-12-31T11:24:30Z p_l: akkad: SBCL is pretty much PD, iirc
2014-12-31T11:25:26Z p_l: there's bunch of libs I think that go around with PD or close to it (WTF, MIT, both which are near equivalent of what PD is in many jurisdictions)
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2014-12-31T11:38:41Z axion: doubtful, but is there anything like with-slots that will bind ALL of an instance's slots?
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2014-12-31T11:40:05Z stassats: axion: no
2014-12-31T11:40:30Z stassats: axion: it's a compile time operation, without knowing the class you can't know its slots
2014-12-31T11:40:36Z stassats: and the class is only known at runtime
2014-12-31T11:40:58Z stassats: axion: moreover, classes can be forward reference and they can be redefined later
2014-12-31T11:41:06Z Shinmera: Well you can write a macro that does it using MOP if you specify the class you expect it to be.
2014-12-31T11:41:08Z axion: i se, fair enough
2014-12-31T11:41:18Z Shinmera: But obviously it'll burn if you pass it anything else.
2014-12-31T11:41:28Z stassats: so, you could have (with-slots (class-name instance)), but due to the above, it's still a problem
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2014-12-31T12:02:57Z H4ns: axion: it is also a bad idea, generally, because you're binding symbols invisibly.
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2014-12-31T12:03:26Z H4ns: axion: imagine what would happen if you'd press M-. on such a magic symbol
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2014-12-31T13:57:32Z nyef: G'morning all.
2014-12-31T13:58:09Z mrkkrp: good evening
2014-12-31T13:58:26Z kuimacro: good evening
2014-12-31T14:00:32Z kuimacro: can i use mapcar on macro?
2014-12-31T14:00:36Z stassats: no
2014-12-31T14:00:52Z kuimacro: how can i do the same thing
2014-12-31T14:00:59Z stassats: you can't
2014-12-31T14:01:02Z Xach: kuimacro: what macro did you have in mind?
2014-12-31T14:01:11Z stassats: it's the fundamental property of macros
2014-12-31T14:01:28Z kuimacro: my defmacro
2014-12-31T14:01:33Z Xach: ok, no.
2014-12-31T14:01:41Z Xach: What does your macro do?
2014-12-31T14:02:02Z stassats: if you makes sense to mapcar it, then it shouldn't be a macro
2014-12-31T14:02:07Z kuimacro: count the number of a letter
2014-12-31T14:02:25Z stassats: who told you to make it a macro?
2014-12-31T14:02:57Z kuimacro: i want to count all 26 letters's number
2014-12-31T14:03:33Z stassats: it should be a function
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2014-12-31T14:03:47Z kuimacro: does it must be
2014-12-31T14:04:00Z kuimacro: my macro works well
2014-12-31T14:04:13Z H4ns: kuimacro: why is it a macro and not a function?
2014-12-31T14:04:22Z stassats: kuimacro: yes, it must
2014-12-31T14:04:31Z H4ns: kuimacro: maybe you want to paste the code to paste.lisp.org so that we can help you better
2014-12-31T14:05:02Z kuimacro: will it be right if i paste it here?
2014-12-31T14:05:08Z stassats: no
2014-12-31T14:05:11Z H4ns: kuimacro: no.  paste.lisp.org
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2014-12-31T14:07:13Z kuimacro: what title should i input
2014-12-31T14:07:37Z H4ns: anything will do
2014-12-31T14:08:43Z kuimacro: http://paste.lisp.org/+33WG
2014-12-31T14:08:59Z kuimacro: is that ok
2014-12-31T14:09:06Z H4ns: kuimacro: there is no reason why this must be a macro
2014-12-31T14:09:14Z Xach: it has many problems
2014-12-31T14:11:13Z stassats: i guess being named "kui_macro_" means it must be a macro
2014-12-31T14:11:41Z kuimacro: can you give me a functional version
2014-12-31T14:11:42Z kuimacro: no
2014-12-31T14:11:51Z kuimacro: my surname is kui
2014-12-31T14:12:04Z H4ns: kuimacro: replace the defmacro with defun, remove the ` and ,, tune a bit and you're done.
2014-12-31T14:13:22Z stassats: it seems that it works purely accidentally
2014-12-31T14:13:37Z kuimacro: what if i want send it b
2014-12-31T14:13:58Z H4ns: kuimacro: what book are you using to learn common lisp?
2014-12-31T14:14:05Z stassats: my bet is "none"
2014-12-31T14:14:19Z stassats: because no book can be that bad
2014-12-31T14:14:28Z kuimacro: i just learn common lisp
2014-12-31T14:14:35Z H4ns: kuimacro: how?
2014-12-31T14:14:45Z kuimacro: i'm really sorry for that
2014-12-31T14:15:53Z mrkkrp: there is no reason you sould be sorry. just find a good book
2014-12-31T14:16:11Z stassats: i can find it for you
2014-12-31T14:16:13Z H4ns: even a bad book would be good at this point :)
2014-12-31T14:16:15Z kuimacro: mrkkrp:thanks
2014-12-31T14:16:22Z stassats: minion: please tell kuimacro about pcl
2014-12-31T14:16:22Z minion: kuimacro: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2014-12-31T14:17:05Z kuimacro: thanks for all of you
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2014-12-31T14:39:36Z luis: Is there any reason why calling CALL-NEXT-METHOD more than once would be a bad idea?
2014-12-31T14:40:19Z nyef: More than once, or from more than one place (but only once per invocation)?
2014-12-31T14:41:57Z luis: more than once per invocation.
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2014-12-31T14:43:33Z luis: (defmethod foo :around () (append (let ((*frob* 'bar)) (call-next-method)) (let ((*frob* 'baz)) (call-next-method)))) for instance.
2014-12-31T14:44:06Z luis: Besides being surprising and possibly confusing, that is... :)
2014-12-31T14:44:50Z nyef: I'm... not seeing any verbiage forbidding it, but I'm also getting the distinct impression that the case wasn't really considered.
2014-12-31T14:44:52Z oGMo: is there a "next method" once it's returned from c-n-m in an :around?
2014-12-31T14:45:37Z stassats: i don't see what could happen to the dispatch mechanism that it cannot be called again
2014-12-31T14:46:37Z nyef: oGMo: Yes, it's defined to be "the next most specific primary method" for a primary method, or something about "shadowed methods" in an around method.
2014-12-31T14:46:38Z oGMo: yeah, seems like "would probably work in most implementations"
2014-12-31T14:46:50Z luis: seems to work, yeah.
2014-12-31T14:47:11Z nyef: Maybe AMOP supports one position or the other?
2014-12-31T14:47:15Z oGMo: less confusing and ambiguous might be just to define another GF and call that
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2014-12-31T14:48:22Z oGMo: nyef: i'm guessing your "didn't consider" assessment hits the nail on the head, but it might be worth checking
2014-12-31T14:48:23Z luis: oGMo: definitely.
2014-12-31T14:49:08Z stassats: you would have a list of applicable methods, so going to the next one is just passing a cdr, no destructive modification necessary
2014-12-31T14:49:09Z nyef: It's also quite possible that it wasn't considered in time for CLHS, or didn't end up in the wording, but that it was considered for AMOP.
2014-12-31T14:51:32Z luis: Can't find anything in AMOP either.
2014-12-31T14:51:55Z luis: well, in the spec bits at least.
2014-12-31T14:56:17Z nyef: I was more thinking the overall book, not merely the speccy bits.
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2014-12-31T14:57:20Z nyef: ... there's a "vision correction" joke in there somewhere, I'm sure.
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2014-12-31T15:01:29Z nyef: "The specs are how you can more clearly see how the system is supposed to work" or similar.
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2014-12-31T15:22:29Z Xach inches closer to getting corman lisp released as open source
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2014-12-31T15:23:28Z stassats: what can we steal from it?
2014-12-31T15:23:41Z nyef: According to xdpyinfo, my new years resolution this year is 1400x1050 at 24bpp.
2014-12-31T15:24:00Z stassats: nyef: that is so 10 years ago
2014-12-31T15:24:37Z oGMo: internal-time-units-per-second shows mine is still 1ms ;/
2014-12-31T15:24:38Z Xach: stassats: I think it will be MIT licensed
2014-12-31T15:24:40Z nyef: Yes, well, I'm looking forward to getting a pen tablet with a more up-to-date display resolution, but it's not ready yet.
2014-12-31T15:24:58Z Xach: stassats: I honestly don't have any idea if anything will be useful beyond historical interest
2014-12-31T15:25:33Z nyef: ... something about taking advantage of a newer version of gorilla glass meaning that production got delayed.
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2014-12-31T15:26:09Z oGMo: nyef: which? and will sbcl run on it?
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2014-12-31T15:27:10Z nyef: oGMo: The ModBook Pro X. And I don't know, does SBCL run on OSX? Is it WORTH running OSX, or should I "just" install Linux on it?
2014-12-31T15:27:15Z oGMo: ahhh
2014-12-31T15:27:32Z oGMo: nyef: it does, though CCL is more targeted there
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2014-12-31T15:28:05Z stassats: is it legal?
2014-12-31T15:28:18Z oGMo: OSX certainly has more app presence for that sort of thing, and unless you plan on writing cocoa apps, SBCL should be perfectly fine
2014-12-31T15:28:31Z nyef: stassats: "Legal" in what sense?
2014-12-31T15:28:54Z nyef: stassats: It's a legit OSX license running on an Apple mainboard, if that's what you're concerned about.
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2014-12-31T15:28:58Z stassats: nyef: making a macbook derivative
2014-12-31T15:29:00Z oGMo: stassats: apple would like you to think otherwise, but i'm pretty sure there's no law against buying, modifying, and selling something
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2014-12-31T15:30:06Z oGMo: at least US/EU
2014-12-31T15:30:40Z nyef: stassats: Roughly, Apple still gets their money, and don't have to carry the hardware warranty. They don't have much grounds for complaint.
2014-12-31T15:31:23Z nyef: oGMo: If I'm running OSX and doing app development, I'll probably start looking into using cocoa, but I'm likely to try and stick with SBCL over CCL.
2014-12-31T15:31:53Z oGMo: not sure there's a bridge there, but i'm very unfamiliar with osx development
2014-12-31T15:32:35Z nyef: ... And speaking of app development on SBCL on tablets, has anyone gotten very far with Android?
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2014-12-31T15:32:57Z stassats: it runs, no sbcl.so, so not much use
2014-12-31T15:33:38Z nyef: Hrm.
2014-12-31T15:33:42Z oGMo: an x86 surface pro thing is actually somewhat tempting, for the price/hardware, if you could put linux on it
2014-12-31T15:34:49Z nyef: stassats: ARM should be able to do heap relocation for static space if necessary, and providing "boxed" entry points for the assembly-routines should be doable...
2014-12-31T15:35:01Z stassats: nyef: that's not the problem
2014-12-31T15:35:07Z nyef: Yeah, rarely is.
2014-12-31T15:35:15Z stassats: the problem is doing it
2014-12-31T15:35:21Z nyef: That's usually it, yes.
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2014-12-31T15:36:14Z nyef: Roughly a couple of days for a proof-of-concept, and a week or so of filing off rough edges, as a zero'th-order estimate?
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2014-12-31T15:37:25Z oGMo: an sbcl.so would be amazing
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2014-12-31T15:38:05Z stassats: nyef: and relocation is one part, another is coexisting with signals
2014-12-31T15:38:54Z stassats: how well will jvm handle the funny undefined instructions?
2014-12-31T15:39:04Z nyef: ... Probably uses them itself. /-:
2014-12-31T15:39:22Z nyef: At the same time, they're basically a short-hand function call.
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2014-12-31T15:40:12Z stassats: alloc is already a trampoline, unlike alloc on ppc, which is an interrupt
2014-12-31T15:40:24Z stassats: so, optional trampolines
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2014-12-31T15:40:38Z stassats: and software write barriers for gc
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2014-12-31T15:42:08Z stassats: first order should be to resurrect David's relocatable core patch
2014-12-31T15:42:29Z stassats: useful not only for .so
2014-12-31T15:42:55Z nyef: I'm honestly surprised that that wasn't committed years ago.
2014-12-31T15:43:20Z stassats: i can't build it, for one thing
2014-12-31T15:43:25Z nyef: NOW, yes.
2014-12-31T15:43:41Z stassats: it's a branch
2014-12-31T15:43:48Z stassats: not just a patch
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2014-12-31T15:44:28Z hzp: well, I was looking into that back when x86 was still a thing and came with its whole own set of problems.  Then x86-64 became really common, eliminating those concerns from the advantages of having relocation.
2014-12-31T15:44:30Z nyef: It needs forward-porting by a version or two to fix the cold-init issues, but otherwise it should work.
2014-12-31T15:46:07Z nyef: There were two issues with relocating a cold-core. One was the x86 relocation fixups being envectored during cold-init (they're now envectored in genesis). The other was the use of SAPs to point to heap data for load-time-value initialization (since switched to boxed object plus byte offset).
2014-12-31T15:46:48Z nyef: We now no longer have any unboxed pointers to heap space introduced in genesis.
2014-12-31T15:47:26Z nyef: (The compiler backends can have such, and often do with the assumption that read-only and static spaces don't move, but that's another matter.)
2014-12-31T15:47:36Z stassats: can we piggyback some work to elf?
2014-12-31T15:48:39Z nyef: Such as?
2014-12-31T15:48:48Z stassats: for relocation
2014-12-31T15:49:23Z nyef: The actual update-the-pointers-in-the-heap phase?
2014-12-31T15:49:40Z stassats: yeah, maybe just for the static space
2014-12-31T15:50:31Z nyef: Your static space references are static symbols, static fdefns, and any callback stubs.
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2014-12-31T15:50:59Z stassats: x86 already has fixups
2014-12-31T15:51:16Z nyef: And almost any other port uses reg_NULL to find static space anyway.
2014-12-31T15:51:26Z stassats: and x86-64 really things that static space is in lower 2GBs
2014-12-31T15:52:03Z nyef: ... what would it take to have (and use) reg_NULL on x86-64?
2014-12-31T15:52:30Z stassats: more register pressure?
2014-12-31T15:52:45Z nyef: How many registers does x86-64 have, again?
2014-12-31T15:52:50Z stassats: not enough
2014-12-31T15:52:57Z nyef: Seriously?
2014-12-31T15:53:12Z nyef: Thought it was 32 or thereabouts?
2014-12-31T15:53:17Z stassats: nope
2014-12-31T15:53:20Z stassats: less than 16
2014-12-31T15:53:38Z stassats: and if you want to throw in precision, it gets even more dire
2014-12-31T15:53:50Z JuanDaugherty: 6 GP ones iirc
2014-12-31T15:54:08Z nyef: Oh, ouch.
2014-12-31T15:54:14Z nyef: It's ARM all over again. )-:
2014-12-31T15:54:45Z nyef: Okay, not touching that.
2014-12-31T15:54:56Z stassats: ok, it's 16, if you count rsp and rbp
2014-12-31T15:55:16Z nyef: And I do.
2014-12-31T15:55:22Z nyef: Still, ugh city.
2014-12-31T15:55:30Z stassats: that's CISC for you
2014-12-31T15:55:37Z nyef: What's ARM's excuse?
2014-12-31T15:55:57Z stassats: low power and old? armv8 got 32
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2014-12-31T15:57:06Z stassats: and predicates eat some encoding space
2014-12-31T15:57:16Z stassats: which they limited in armv8 as well
2014-12-31T15:58:04Z JuanDaugherty confirms 16. Was thinking of 32 where it was 8.
2014-12-31T15:58:19Z nyef: 16 GPRs is *just* about enough to have a partitioned register set and threading in SBCL, but it's a bit of a squeeze.
2014-12-31T15:59:05Z stassats: on x86, FS is used for the thread structure, too bad can't be used on x86-64
2014-12-31T15:59:52Z rme: You can on many operating systems.  Not on OS X or Windows, though.
2014-12-31T16:00:35Z stassats: doesn't linux use them for something its own?
2014-12-31T16:00:53Z stassats: maybe for pthreads
2014-12-31T16:01:18Z rme: You have %fs and %gs.  Systems typically use one for pthreads, and the other is for the user.
2014-12-31T16:03:00Z nyef: ... Such as for direct user access to the video hardware?
2014-12-31T16:03:15Z nyef: ISTR that being an issue with some OpenGL implementations.
2014-12-31T16:04:13Z rme: http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/browser/trunk/source/lisp-kernel/thread_manager.c#L864 is how we set it up on ccl
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2014-12-31T16:07:11Z stassats: ok, good to know
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