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2014-07-01T00:12:41Z names: ccl-logbot nha_ drmeiste_ jleija davazp pillton bcoburn sysfault zRecursive protist eudoxia Jesin jaimef ejbs gendl Vivitron DataLinkDroid jamesf MjrTom Sgeo leb wccoder bgs100 cyphase redline6561 s00pcan yacks heddwch Neptu_ innertracks RenJuan vlnx_ asedeno_ devn_ nug700 aerique_ _death sklr_ banjara1 drmeister tajjada Sauvin ASau replcated BitPuffin DrCode sirdancealot clop nydel Bike theos EvW [SLB] Eyes fikusz Patzy _8hzp sword gingerale solidus_
2014-07-01T00:12:41Z names: ndrei zwer phadthai Semtex-h _schulte_ Soft joneshf-laptop robot-beethoven MoALTz therik Okasu urandom__ clog bjorkintosh Mon_Ouie joe-w-bimedina wilfredh zacharias oleo mordocai Longlius harish_ dim lifenoodles aretecode DGASAU billstclair Guest35671 juanlas jchochli_ Amaan didi attila_lendvai funnel H4ns freiksenet ferada raschwell Khisanth manfoo7 ft joneshf Neet frkout MrWoohoo mal_ l_a_m mikaelj the8thbit kushal Jubb sykopomp spacebat kanru leo2007
2014-07-01T00:12:41Z names: eigenlicht_ bcoburn` jack_rabbit Praise mtd matko gigetoo z0d paddymahoney sshirokov ramus teiresias GuilOooo Guest65964 dmiles_afk nisstyre pinupgeek htmzr Ober_ stokachu aeth Lebbe xristos zxq9 djinni` c74d AntiSpamMeta gko sbryant gluegadget benny Tordek drdo endou_ splittist _tca_ rvirding superjudge_ ttm Krystof ianmcorvidae jrm stopbit diginet alchemis7 Oddity zarul segmond _d3f arbscht housel vhost- axion e2xistz brucem eee-blt gensym gz_ __main__
2014-07-01T00:12:41Z names: djr shwouchk felideon Adeon blakbunn- milosn_ White__Flame finnrobi ahungry__ tessier_ sid_cyph1r froggey enn_ dsp yeltzooo Anarch victor_lowther d4gg4d___ faheem_ sellout ircbrows- specbot ski_ BlastHardcheese honkfestival WeirdEnt- junkris_ guaqua`` hypno_ izirku_ Natch zymurgy foom setheus Mathieu decent nightshade427 cross_ gniourf bege_ fmu araujo oconnore SHODAN whmark jtz girrig Intensity Xach MightyJoe nand1 Zag ggherdov aksatac_ otwieracz jayne
2014-07-01T00:12:41Z names: cmatei bobbysmith007 dfox__ bhyde copec nimiux_ tvaalen_ oGMo phf` daimrod gregburd lacedaemon Blkt schoppenhauer mdallastella Borbus hyoyoung_ matija killmaster loke sfa uzo jackdaniel whartung sjl nightfly saarin dboswell rtoym ivan\ TheMoonMaster mathrick smull lemoinem Zhivago rotty ineiros minion eagleflo johs cpt_nemo les cmbntr_ sigjuice_ flip214 rvchangue kyl Posterdati cods justinmcp xenophon j_king mood sgray10 Kruppe ryankarason nicdev
2014-07-01T00:12:41Z names: nowhere_man_ acieroid pjb quasisane brandonz samebchase joast tbarletz notori0us yano @p_l High-Q-Brah draculus alpha- Subfusc krrrcks dlowe ck_ naryl sytse tali713 zz_karupa cibs PuercoPop JokerDoom dkordic eMBee GGMethos musicalchair dan64 Corey arrdem pchrist [1]JPeterson TristamWrk ered aoh misv njsg ``Erik mathrick_ Kabaka scharan yauz_2 antoszka renard_ peccu3 |3b| Colleen em p_l|backup tomaw gabot Fade ahungry ThePhoeron jsnell madnificent Tristam
2014-07-01T00:12:41Z names: ecraven InvalidCo yroeht ozzloy AeroNotix joga K1rk pok_ theBlackDragon kbtr_ lupine wormphle1m codeburg tkd eak nitro_idiot felipe Mandus jasom s_e dRbiG vpm luis _abbe` galdor j0ni zbigniew
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2014-07-01T00:18:03Z 
2014-07-01T00:18:03Z names: ccl-logbot pierre1_ Denommus nha_ drmeiste_ jleija davazp pillton bcoburn sysfault zRecursive protist eudoxia Jesin jaimef ejbs gendl Vivitron DataLinkDroid jamesf MjrTom Sgeo leb wccoder bgs100 cyphase redline6561 s00pcan yacks heddwch Neptu_ innertracks RenJuan vlnx_ asedeno_ devn_ nug700 aerique_ _death sklr_ banjara1 drmeister tajjada Sauvin ASau replcated BitPuffin DrCode sirdancealot clop nydel Bike theos EvW [SLB] Eyes fikusz Patzy _8hzp sword
2014-07-01T00:18:03Z names: gingerale solidus_ ndrei zwer phadthai Semtex-h _schulte_ Soft joneshf-laptop robot-beethoven MoALTz therik Okasu urandom__ clog bjorkintosh Mon_Ouie joe-w-bimedina wilfredh zacharias oleo mordocai Longlius harish_ dim lifenoodles aretecode DGASAU billstclair Guest35671 juanlas jchochli_ Amaan didi attila_lendvai funnel H4ns freiksenet ferada raschwell Khisanth manfoo7 ft joneshf Neet frkout MrWoohoo mal_ l_a_m mikaelj the8thbit kushal Jubb sykopomp
2014-07-01T00:18:03Z names: spacebat kanru leo2007 eigenlicht_ bcoburn` jack_rabbit Praise mtd matko gigetoo z0d paddymahoney sshirokov ramus teiresias GuilOooo Guest65964 dmiles_afk nisstyre pinupgeek htmzr Ober_ stokachu aeth Lebbe xristos zxq9 djinni` c74d AntiSpamMeta gko sbryant gluegadget benny Tordek drdo endou_ splittist _tca_ rvirding superjudge_ ttm Krystof ianmcorvidae jrm stopbit diginet alchemis7 Oddity zarul segmond _d3f arbscht housel vhost- axion e2xistz brucem
2014-07-01T00:18:03Z names: eee-blt gensym gz_ __main__ djr shwouchk felideon Adeon blakbunn- milosn_ White__Flame finnrobi ahungry__ tessier_ sid_cyph1r froggey enn_ dsp yeltzooo Anarch victor_lowther d4gg4d___ faheem_ sellout ircbrows- specbot ski_ BlastHardcheese honkfestival WeirdEnt- junkris_ guaqua`` hypno_ izirku_ Natch zymurgy foom setheus Mathieu decent nightshade427 cross_ gniourf bege_ fmu araujo oconnore SHODAN whmark jtz girrig Intensity Xach MightyJoe nand1 Zag
2014-07-01T00:18:03Z names: ggherdov aksatac_ otwieracz jayne cmatei bobbysmith007 dfox__ bhyde copec nimiux_ tvaalen_ oGMo phf` daimrod gregburd lacedaemon Blkt schoppenhauer mdallastella Borbus hyoyoung_ matija killmaster loke sfa uzo jackdaniel whartung sjl nightfly saarin dboswell rtoym ivan\ TheMoonMaster mathrick smull lemoinem Zhivago rotty ineiros minion eagleflo johs cpt_nemo les cmbntr_ sigjuice_ flip214 rvchangue kyl Posterdati cods justinmcp xenophon j_king mood
2014-07-01T00:18:03Z names: sgray10 Kruppe ryankarason nicdev nowhere_man_ acieroid pjb quasisane brandonz samebchase joast tbarletz notori0us yano @p_l High-Q-Brah draculus alpha- Subfusc krrrcks dlowe ck_ naryl sytse tali713 zz_karupa cibs PuercoPop JokerDoom dkordic eMBee GGMethos musicalchair dan64 Corey arrdem pchrist [1]JPeterson TristamWrk ered aoh misv njsg ``Erik mathrick_ Kabaka scharan yauz_2 antoszka renard_ peccu3 |3b| Colleen em p_l|backup tomaw gabot Fade ahungry
2014-07-01T00:18:03Z names: ThePhoeron jsnell madnificent Tristam ecraven InvalidCo yroeht ozzloy AeroNotix joga K1rk pok_ theBlackDragon zbigniew j0ni galdor _abbe` luis vpm dRbiG s_e jasom Mandus felipe kbtr_ lupine wormphle1m codeburg tkd eak nitro_idiot
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2014-07-01T00:27:05Z zRecursive: clhs integer-decode-float
2014-07-01T00:27:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dec_fl.htm
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2014-07-01T01:05:08Z heyfu[kyou: MOTHER FU[KERS 22397 MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS
2014-07-01T01:05:13Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU BITCH FU[K YOU ALL 31186 FU[K YOU BITCH
2014-07-01T01:05:18Z heyfu[kyou: FU[KERS FU[K FU[KERS FU[K FU[K FU[KERS FU[KING BITCHES FU[K FU[K YOU ALL FU[KERS FU[K YOU ALL FU[KERS FU[K YOU ALL 2178 FU[KERS
2014-07-01T01:05:23Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL 4901 FU[K YOU
2014-07-01T01:05:28Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K 92044 FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K
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2014-07-01T01:05:33Z heyfu[kyou: MOTHER FU[KERS 69376 MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS
2014-07-01T01:05:38Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL 36910 FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL
2014-07-01T01:05:43Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K 86218 FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K
2014-07-01T01:05:48Z heyfu[kyou: 8964 TH1S SP@M BR0UGHT T0 Y0U C0URTESY 0F AlL THE FU[KING FREEN0DE 0PERATORS.
2014-07-01T01:05:53Z heyfu[kyou: PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL 76318 PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL
2014-07-01T01:05:58Z heyfu[kyou: 59796 FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES
2014-07-01T01:06:03Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL 53320 FU[K YOU
2014-07-01T01:06:08Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL 88919 FU[K YOU
2014-07-01T01:06:13Z heyfu[kyou: FU[KERS FU[K FU[KERS FU[K FU[K FU[KERS FU[KING BITCHES FU[K FU[K YOU ALL FU[KERS FU[K YOU ALL FU[KERS FU[K YOU ALL 28532 FU[KERS
2014-07-01T01:06:18Z heyfu[kyou: 20436 FU[KERS 72825 FU[KERS 91288 FU[KERS 69354 FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS
2014-07-01T01:06:23Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL 23720 FU[K YOU
2014-07-01T01:06:28Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU BITCH FU[K YOU ALL 19038 FU[K YOU BITCH
2014-07-01T01:06:33Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL 61309 FU[K YOU
2014-07-01T01:06:38Z heyfu[kyou: 87648 TH1S SP@M BR0UGHT T0 Y0U C0URTESY 0F AlL THE FU[KING FREEN0DE 0PERATORS.
2014-07-01T01:06:43Z heyfu[kyou: 5695 FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES
2014-07-01T01:06:48Z heyfu[kyou: 48507 FU[KERS 28321 FU[KERS 91185 FU[KERS 99114 FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS
2014-07-01T01:06:53Z heyfu[kyou: MOTHER FU[KERS 57500 MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS
2014-07-01T01:06:58Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL 69288 FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL
2014-07-01T01:07:03Z heyfu[kyou: MOTHER FU[KERS 68090 MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS
2014-07-01T01:07:08Z heyfu[kyou: 88929 TH1S SP@M BR0UGHT T0 Y0U C0URTESY 0F AlL THE FU[KING FREEN0DE 0PERATORS.
2014-07-01T01:07:13Z heyfu[kyou: FU[KERS FU[K FU[KERS FU[K FU[K FU[KERS FU[KING BITCHES FU[K FU[K YOU ALL FU[KERS FU[K YOU ALL FU[KERS FU[K YOU ALL 31877 FU[KERS
2014-07-01T01:07:18Z heyfu[kyou: 18846 TH1S SP@M BR0UGHT T0 Y0U C0URTESY 0F AlL THE FU[KING FREEN0DE 0PERATORS.
2014-07-01T01:07:23Z heyfu[kyou: 4738 TH1S SP@M BR0UGHT T0 Y0U C0URTESY 0F AlL THE FU[KING FREEN0DE 0PERATORS.
2014-07-01T01:07:28Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU BITCH FU[K YOU ALL 74518 FU[K YOU BITCH
2014-07-01T01:07:33Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU BITCH FU[K YOU ALL 74893 FU[K YOU BITCH
2014-07-01T01:07:38Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K 47433 FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K
2014-07-01T01:07:43Z heyfu[kyou: 6101 FU[KERS 53094 FU[KERS 67442 FU[KERS 55332 FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS
2014-07-01T01:07:48Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL 36183 FU[K YOU
2014-07-01T01:07:53Z heyfu[kyou: 80548 TH1S SP@M BR0UGHT T0 Y0U C0URTESY 0F AlL THE FU[KING FREEN0DE 0PERATORS.
2014-07-01T01:07:58Z heyfu[kyou: MOTHER FU[KERS 41402 MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS
2014-07-01T01:08:03Z heyfu[kyou: FU[KERS FU[K FU[KERS FU[K FU[K FU[KERS FU[KING BITCHES FU[K FU[K YOU ALL FU[KERS FU[K YOU ALL FU[KERS FU[K YOU ALL 25541 FU[KERS
2014-07-01T01:08:08Z heyfu[kyou: PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL 21885 PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL
2014-07-01T01:08:13Z heyfu[kyou: 3000 FU[KERS 63234 FU[KERS 71579 FU[KERS 16115 FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS
2014-07-01T01:08:18Z heyfu[kyou: 25979 FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES
2014-07-01T01:08:19Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2014-07-01T01:08:21Z Xach has set mode +b *!*fckbot@46.165.251.*
2014-07-01T01:08:29Z heyfu[kyou [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (heyfu[kyou)
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2014-07-01T01:35:07Z p_l: ...
2014-07-01T01:35:22Z p_l: I look away for a moment and this ahppens
2014-07-01T01:35:28Z gendl left #lisp
2014-07-01T01:35:37Z Xach: never look away
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2014-07-01T01:40:37Z p_l has set mode +b *!*fckbot@*
2014-07-01T01:40:46Z p_l has set mode +b heyfu[kyou*!*@*
2014-07-01T01:42:04Z p_l: Still... I can't really get what one gets from that behaviour
2014-07-01T01:42:58Z p_l: I understood if it was personal grievance with an op, even if it's childish, but it appears the guy is targeting random freenode channels
2014-07-01T01:43:41Z Mathieu left #lisp
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2014-07-01T01:46:59Z Xach: careless whispers
2014-07-01T01:47:16Z phadthai: boredom and lack of creativity to come up with interesting projects to realize
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2014-07-01T01:48:11Z AdmiralBumbleBee: corn
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2014-07-01T02:08:19Z replcated: Is there a better way to check if a character is a digit than (member c '(#\0 ... #\9))?
2014-07-01T02:08:46Z Bike: digit-char-p
2014-07-01T02:08:49Z pillton: clhs digit-char-p
2014-07-01T02:08:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_digi_1.htm
2014-07-01T02:08:50Z Bike: clhs digit-char-p
2014-07-01T02:08:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_digi_1.htm
2014-07-01T02:09:14Z replcated: pillton & Bike: Thank you, that's what I was looking for.
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2014-07-01T10:39:24Z Xach has set mode -o Xach
2014-07-01T10:43:35Z pjb: |3b|:  you realize that read times, compilation times and run times can be embedded one into another, and that macro expansions times can be initiated from either?  Therefore to answer to the question "where" a macro is expanded, you need not only a single file, but a stack of files (and possibly you'd also want in that stack, sexps from which macro expansions were requested).
2014-07-01T10:44:10Z pjb: |3b|: not to say that it's impossible, but usually, just using grep -niH "yourmacro" *.lisp  works as well and is much simplier to implement.
2014-07-01T10:44:36Z pjb: (and also, you can macroexpand from macros, so add that to the list).
2014-07-01T10:46:01Z pjb: |3b|: as a Q&D solution, you could print out *compile-file-truename* and *load-truename* from *macroexpand-hook*.
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2014-07-01T10:47:55Z milissa: http://adf.ly/pyduc
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2014-07-01T10:49:41Z pjb: Xach: anybody with a login "fckbot" should be banned, whatever it's IP address…
2014-07-01T10:50:13Z pjb: milissa link doesn't work without javascript; probably useless.
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2014-07-01T10:56:45Z Xach: i don't know, fckbot made some pretty good points
2014-07-01T10:57:08Z pjb: s/it's/its/
2014-07-01T10:57:14Z pjb: Sorry for the confusion.
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2014-07-01T11:01:04Z RenJuan: have to be careful with people unaware of english in that register, especially east asians
2014-07-01T11:02:13Z loke: Error 1: URL shortener. Error 2: URL shortener that shows an ad. Error 3: My corporate proxy blocked it saying  'Scam/Questionable/Illegal'.
2014-07-01T11:02:31Z loke: I could use my non-blocking tunnel, but I can't be bothered
2014-07-01T11:02:56Z loke: The link is to "http://visitstomoney.com/" by the way :-)
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2014-07-01T11:32:09Z Xach: Never heard of Stomoney
2014-07-01T11:32:16Z Xach: Might want to visit anyway
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2014-07-01T11:35:38Z stassats: so, slime in ql/local-projects and slime-helper do not work together?
2014-07-01T11:35:51Z Xach: I don't think so.
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2014-07-01T14:43:34Z didi: Ah. I just discovered `dpb'. \o/
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2014-07-01T14:44:56Z Xach: My initials are zpb. I tried to arrange for my son's initials to be "dpb" but we could not agree on a satisfactory name.
2014-07-01T14:45:10Z didi: Hehe.
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2014-07-01T14:45:58Z Zhivago: Diplodocus is a fine name.
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2014-07-01T14:47:29Z |3b|: pjb: i'm fine with limiting it to the easy cases, like a macro form that existed in an obvious form in an actual file being LOADed or COMPILE-FILEd, with some extra hooks for specifying offsets for things like slime C-c C-c
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2014-07-01T14:47:58Z |3b|: pjb: and grep is completely useless for specifying file positions in a javascript source map for example
2014-07-01T14:49:37Z |3b| 's current thought is an EQ hash table of positions of forms READ available during the dynamic extent of a LOAD or COMPILE-FILE, not sure if that would actually be practical/useful or not
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2014-07-01T14:50:20Z |3b|: then a macro could use &whole, and figure out its position, or look for positions of subforms
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2014-07-01T14:53:25Z |3b|: possibly also track results of macroexpansion, and add that to the hash with link back to position of macro that was expanded if any, which would catch situations where a user macro completely generated a call to a macro that wanted to track positions
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2014-07-01T15:02:49Z hitecnologys: It may sound idiotic and unacceptable, but what's "dpb"?
2014-07-01T15:03:01Z Xach: l1sp.org/cl/dpb has the scoop
2014-07-01T15:03:01Z p_l: deposit byte
2014-07-01T15:03:11Z p_l: but yeah, look at link Xach posted
2014-07-01T15:03:16Z hitecnologys: Ah.
2014-07-01T15:03:34Z hitecnologys: I though it was some kind of abbreviation.
2014-07-01T15:04:35Z p_l: well, it is - for one of two PDP-6/10 instructions for copying bytes :)
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2014-07-01T15:05:00Z hitecnologys: Yeah, I remember.
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2014-07-01T15:42:39Z jasom: does lisp have an idpb?
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2014-07-01T15:43:21Z Xach: What's that?
2014-07-01T15:43:29Z jasom: increment and deposit byte
2014-07-01T15:43:41Z jasom: Increment the byte pointer contained at the effective address. Then perform a DPB function using the updated byte pointer.
2014-07-01T15:44:12Z jasom: it doesn't make sense for a high-level language, but it was available on the pdp
2014-07-01T15:44:54Z jasom: Doing sequential byte accesses without it would have been a pain
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2014-07-01T15:47:40Z oGMo: i don't think that really makes sense as a "does lisp have" question for CL
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2014-07-01T15:48:00Z oGMo: does x86(_64) have something similar? does sbcl/ccl use it? perhaps
2014-07-01T15:48:18Z oGMo: and you could always implement it for FFI
2014-07-01T15:48:38Z jasom: oGMo: We were talking about dpb earlier and I was being snarky
2014-07-01T15:48:45Z oGMo: jasom: ah ;)
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2014-07-01T16:52:45Z JackEgivand: hey, is anybody here really experienced with screamer? I'm having some weird issues
2014-07-01T16:52:49Z dim: pgloader and pginstall dependencies are finally covered in ql-to-deb, see https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb/tree/master/debian ;-)
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2014-07-01T16:53:36Z dim is on his way to be able to push those packages into debian proper, and the tool makes it easy to maintain (as easy as running `./build/bin/ql-to-deb -v` monthly for QL updates)
2014-07-01T16:53:54Z didi: dim: \o/
2014-07-01T16:54:48Z dim: it's quite strange for CL to have a reputation of falling short for libs you might need and having to package about 50 libs to support simple enough applications
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2014-07-01T16:55:30Z JackEgivand: so, for some reason, when I use screamer's constraint programming package, and tell it to give me all values for ways to make change for an american dollar, it skips 4/5 of the possibilities
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2014-07-01T16:57:58Z didi: dim: I really hope you succeed in packaging them for Debian.
2014-07-01T16:58:02Z H4ns: JackEgivand: do you just want to express your dissatisfaction or did you want to share the source code as well so that someone here can actually try to help with your problem?
2014-07-01T16:58:11Z JackEgivand: H4ns: the second one
2014-07-01T16:58:19Z JackEgivand: should I post it here, email, or start a private channel?
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2014-07-01T16:58:42Z oGMo: topic :P
2014-07-01T16:58:43Z H4ns: JackEgivand: use paste.lisp.org - i probably cannot help, though
2014-07-01T16:58:56Z dim: didi: I think I'm on the right path (https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=753317); I should be a DM soon enough, then I have sponsors to help me push all that through the NEW queue
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2014-07-01T16:59:31Z dim: of course I will go from maintaining 7 packages in debian to 55 of them or abouts ;-)
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2014-07-01T17:00:23Z didi: dim: I am not a Debian developer, but let me know if I can help you. Some CL packages need updating IMO.
2014-07-01T17:00:33Z JackEgivand: H4ns:     http://paste.lisp.org/display/143057
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2014-07-01T17:00:43Z dim: the ql-to-deb tool is all about automating the updating
2014-07-01T17:00:58Z dim: basically it fetches a Quicklisp release and add the debian/ packaging in there then build the package
2014-07-01T17:01:19Z dim: so you need to manually edit the debian packaging at least once, but then it's all automated
2014-07-01T17:02:00Z didi: dim: Nice.
2014-07-01T17:02:56Z oGMo: JackEgivand: i don't know how screamer works but surely that is not how you phrase that
2014-07-01T17:03:31Z JackEgivand: oGMo: basically pulled it from the cliki example    http://www.cliki.net/screamer
2014-07-01T17:03:59Z oGMo: yes, it looks like you replaced some variable names and expected to get the result you wanted :P
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2014-07-01T17:04:13Z JackEgivand: well...its a learning process
2014-07-01T17:04:35Z JackEgivand: i wanted to make sure i understood it before I tried something more complex and apparently I don't
2014-07-01T17:05:26Z oGMo: also (again not familiar with screamer, which does look quite nifty), screamer looks like a constraint solver and making change is a permutation problem
2014-07-01T17:05:48Z JackEgivand: well it was originally designed to use backtracking to solve permutation problems
2014-07-01T17:05:53Z JackEgivand: then they added the constraint language on top
2014-07-01T17:06:38Z Bicyclidine: well, first off, you should probably use cents in integers rather than floats
2014-07-01T17:06:43Z oGMo: (also never use floats for this)
2014-07-01T17:06:54Z oGMo: <- too slow
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2014-07-01T17:07:13Z JackEgivand: hrm...okay fair enough
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2014-07-01T17:07:39Z dim: yeah don't handle money with floats
2014-07-01T17:07:46Z dim: or you will never know how much you have
2014-07-01T17:08:21Z JackEgivand: huh
2014-07-01T17:08:23Z JackEgivand: that fixed it
2014-07-01T17:08:33Z JackEgivand: now it enumerates all of them
2014-07-01T17:08:41Z JackEgivand: did you guys know or was that just a really good guess?
2014-07-01T17:08:49Z JackEgivand: also, thanks
2014-07-01T17:09:10Z oGMo: even if it does that's probably not an entirely correct solution
2014-07-01T17:09:12Z dim: money doesn't fit into float, that's all I know about your problem here
2014-07-01T17:09:25Z oGMo: JackEgivand: because floating point is not precise, and you should never ever ever use it---ever---for money. Ever.
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2014-07-01T17:09:44Z pjb: for money and for most of the other things.
2014-07-01T17:09:55Z JackEgivand: @oGMo, compared it to the output from a C++ constraints package
2014-07-01T17:09:57Z JackEgivand: it matches now
2014-07-01T17:09:59Z dim: pjb: well anything of value would be a good guess
2014-07-01T17:10:06Z pjb: Unless you provide a 20-page justifications in 3 exemplars, you won't be allowed to use floats.
2014-07-01T17:10:09Z oGMo: JackEgivand: right but try making change for $1000
2014-07-01T17:10:13Z |3b| would say "avoid using it for things you want to compare with ="
2014-07-01T17:10:25Z JackEgivand: @oGMo, i know its got an upper bound
2014-07-01T17:10:55Z |3b|: whether that is "most things" or not depends on what field you are working in
2014-07-01T17:10:57Z Bicyclidine: JackEgivand: well here's a good reason, (+ .1 .13) => .22999999
2014-07-01T17:11:31Z Bicyclidine: i for one would not accept nine hundred ninety nine thousand nine hundred ninety nine millionths of a cent from a cashier
2014-07-01T17:11:32Z JackEgivand: well, in this case its going to be comparing the numbers of atoms in simulations to identify point defects
2014-07-01T17:11:41Z oGMo: |3b|: yeah sounds like a good rule of thumb
2014-07-01T17:12:23Z JackEgivand: so actually something quite similar to this
2014-07-01T17:14:03Z pjb: I guess the only good use of floating point numbers, is to compute the physical parameters of a nuclear  bomb.   That's what they were invented for.
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2014-07-01T17:14:23Z JackEgivand: yeah, but if you don't use floating point then you can't use the SIMD
2014-07-01T17:14:34Z |3b|: or situations where you care about dynamic range more than specific values, like a lot of graphics uses
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2014-07-01T17:14:56Z JackEgivand: or situations where speed is important, like when the calculations would take weeks with arbitrary precision
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2014-07-01T17:15:00Z pjb: they pose a lot of problems in 3D graphics in simulations.
2014-07-01T17:15:05Z JackEgivand: thus, the SIMD
2014-07-01T17:15:07Z pjb: Planes jumping around, stuff like that…
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2014-07-01T17:15:40Z |3b|: pjb: limiting positions to reasonable sized integers doesn't help though
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2014-07-01T17:15:48Z pjb: There's realib.
2014-07-01T17:15:50Z |3b| was talking more about colors anyway though
2014-07-01T17:15:50Z Bicyclidine: JackEgivand: pretty sure SSE has let you use integerish things for a while now
2014-07-01T17:16:25Z jusss: how to return a character's ascii code
2014-07-01T17:16:29Z JackEgivand: yah but my field is all electron probability functions, so integers wouldnt actually do much good
2014-07-01T17:16:47Z oGMo: worrying about simd when you're writing a change-making function is perhaps the epitome of premature optimization :P
2014-07-01T17:16:48Z Bicyclidine: jusss: clhs char-code
2014-07-01T17:17:03Z JackEgivand: @oGMo, was a separate project lol
2014-07-01T17:17:04Z pjb: jusss: use com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.ascii:ascii-code
2014-07-01T17:17:13Z |3b|: pjb: arbitrary precision values won't run at useful speeds, and probably still wouldn't help
2014-07-01T17:17:22Z pjb: jusss: if you try char-code, it will break on EBCDIC systems and others.
2014-07-01T17:17:59Z Bicyclidine: this information is very important to jusss
2014-07-01T17:17:59Z jusss: pjb: i see
2014-07-01T17:18:00Z pjb: |3b|: you're subestimating computing speed.  Notably future computing speeds.
2014-07-01T17:18:13Z oGMo: arbitrary precision isn't the issue anyway, the universe is only precise to not that many positions :P
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2014-07-01T17:18:41Z |3b|: pjb: you are underestimating growth in demand for computing speed
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2014-07-01T17:19:12Z |3b| could use a few orders of magnitude more speed than is available in the fastest (consumer) floating point
2014-07-01T17:19:18Z pjb: Foremost, I'm very sad when I shoot a missile, and the enemy plane jumps away.
2014-07-01T17:19:30Z JackEgivand: ....im using 160 cores right now, and i would like them to be faster....is that enough demand?
2014-07-01T17:19:34Z |3b|: that sounds more like network problems than fp precision
2014-07-01T17:19:43Z pjb: I really would like much less floating point bugs in the software I use.
2014-07-01T17:19:51Z |3b| thought you meant geometrical planes not air planes
2014-07-01T17:20:06Z JackEgivand: there are those too, but the sysadmins notice if you fix network problems yourself. they don't if you fix the math routines
2014-07-01T17:20:16Z Bicyclidine: i haven't seen a floating point problem in a video game for a while, if ever
2014-07-01T17:20:21Z didi: pjb: It wouldn't be bad if all missiles missed all planes.
2014-07-01T17:20:25Z |3b|: if you can see fp precision problems in large object posistions, somebody isn't using them correctly
2014-07-01T17:20:29Z pjb: :-)
2014-07-01T17:20:37Z |3b|: so no guarantee they would get integer or rational positions right either :p
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2014-07-01T17:21:00Z oGMo: |3b|: that would make much more sense.. fighting surfaces are usually due to lack of precision aren't they?
2014-07-01T17:21:03Z |3b|: JackEgivand: i meant more existence of a network (latency, packet loss, etc)
2014-07-01T17:21:14Z |3b|: oGMo: right
2014-07-01T17:21:16Z JackEgivand: ah. no it actually scales linearly with number of cores
2014-07-01T17:21:51Z Bicyclidine: i think |3b| was talking about "I'm very sad when I shoot a missile", not you
2014-07-01T17:22:12Z |3b|: Bicyclidine: most games are good at hiding it, though ones that let you wander around arbitrarily can show problems, like minecraft
2014-07-01T17:22:19Z JackEgivand: the REAL problem is that code is in fortran
2014-07-01T17:22:40Z JackEgivand: actually sometimes the problem with the fp in graphics thing shows up in rendering
2014-07-01T17:22:45Z JackEgivand: if you use dual contouring especially
2014-07-01T17:22:48Z Bicyclidine: oh, yeah, i remember the minecraft outlands thing now.
2014-07-01T17:22:55Z Bicyclidine: JackEgivand: is it at least standard fortran?
2014-07-01T17:22:57Z JackEgivand: you have to use SVD because otherwise you get all these spikes coming out
2014-07-01T17:23:03Z Bicyclidine: from, say, a standard published during my lifetime
2014-07-01T17:23:12Z JackEgivand: no, unfortunately not
2014-07-01T17:23:16Z Bicyclidine: my condolences
2014-07-01T17:23:20Z JackEgivand: thanks
2014-07-01T17:23:27Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm trying to name all my lisp function names as close to c++ as possible, but for this c++ function "trace" I get a package lock error.  Normally I would call the lisp function in this instance "*trace" (with at asterix at the start).  Does anyone else have a better idea
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2014-07-01T17:24:02Z Bicyclidine: joe-w-bimedina: have your package shadow cl:trace, you probably don't need it
2014-07-01T17:24:04Z |3b|: you can shadow it and make it annoying for people who want to :use your package, or name it differently
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2014-07-01T17:24:29Z Bicyclidine: oh yeah right.
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2014-07-01T17:24:39Z Bicyclidine: probably name it something else then.
2014-07-01T17:24:49Z JackEgivand: speaking of fp performance, have you guys messed around with any of the assembly generators in sbcl
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2014-07-01T17:25:05Z JackEgivand: cause i found this really neat blog
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2014-07-01T17:25:20Z |3b| wrote a vop for some FP stuff, but even though i made it shorter it wasn't any faster :(
2014-07-01T17:25:34Z |3b| mostly just uses GPU for bulk computation these days though
2014-07-01T17:25:34Z Bicyclidine: pkhuong's?
2014-07-01T17:25:38Z JackEgivand: yeah that one
2014-07-01T17:25:55Z Vivitron: Shadowing trace should only affect users if you export it too.
2014-07-01T17:25:55Z jasom: JackEgivand: 128 bit integers work just fine for electron probability functions
2014-07-01T17:25:59Z Bicyclidine: we have a few sbcl devs around, so yes, and yes his blog is neat
2014-07-01T17:26:41Z |3b|: Vivitron: it is part of the api, so exporting it is expected
2014-07-01T17:26:41Z Bicyclidine: he's an sbcl dev so he knows the internals more than most, ofc
2014-07-01T17:26:42Z JackEgivand: jasom: 128 bit integers don't get you speed though
2014-07-01T17:26:53Z joe-w-bimedina: I do have a few like this like max min abs, etc.
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2014-07-01T17:27:13Z Vivitron: Ah, I definitely support renaming then
2014-07-01T17:27:27Z jasom: JackEgivand: yeah, doubles are probably fine for that.  You just need to be careful about when you subtract
2014-07-01T17:28:02Z JackEgivand: jasom: in what way? you mean cause they wrap back around?
2014-07-01T17:28:32Z jasom: JackEgivand: if you subtract two floats of similar magnitude you get large losses of precision
2014-07-01T17:28:36Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks for the advice
2014-07-01T17:29:07Z JackEgivand: jasom: thanks, did not know that..actually though all the simd stuff is a side project until i finish this other project
2014-07-01T17:29:49Z JackEgivand: current project is kind of a self analyzing data warehouse
2014-07-01T17:29:53Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|: I got all those defmacros renamed yesterday, my vector.lisp is clean now.  I only took a tiny speed hit on some areas and gained on others
2014-07-01T17:29:58Z jasom: JackEgivand: there are floating-point specific versions of common formluae that do subtraction.  IIRC the wikipedia page on catestrophic cancellation has an example for the quadratic forumula
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2014-07-01T17:30:29Z JackEgivand: jasom: yep "loss of significance"
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2014-07-01T17:30:52Z jasom: JackEgivand: also you see issues when e.g. summing large numbers of values; eventually you have no significance to add more values if you do it the naive way
2014-07-01T17:31:17Z joe-w-bimedina: is calling a function name like: *trace*, with earmuffs a bad idea
2014-07-01T17:31:22Z Bicyclidine: Yes
2014-07-01T17:31:28Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks
2014-07-01T17:31:33Z Bicyclidine: That is for dynamic variables.
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2014-07-01T17:32:37Z bobbysmith007: joe-w-bimedina: I have seen %fn-name used for that kind of really-really system unrelated internal type of functionality
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2014-07-01T17:33:06Z Bicyclidine: that's no good for something in the api, though
2014-07-01T17:33:25Z joe-w-bimedina: what is %fn-name
2014-07-01T17:33:31Z joe-w-bimedina: like %trace
2014-07-01T17:33:42Z Bicyclidine: yes.
2014-07-01T17:33:44Z bobbysmith007: joe-w-bimedina: just a naming convention that is in somewhat wide use
2014-07-01T17:33:47Z bobbysmith007: yes
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2014-07-01T17:35:49Z JackEgivand: joe-w-bimedina: what is this api?
2014-07-01T17:36:34Z joe-w-bimedina: a opencv wrapper and trace calculates the sum of a matrix diagonal
2014-07-01T17:37:00Z JackEgivand: ah. sounds fantastic. so its the math-trace
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2014-07-01T17:37:09Z Bicyclidine: or matrix-trace or such
2014-07-01T17:37:10Z joe-w-bimedina: abs, max and min have the same functionality as in lisp though.
2014-07-01T17:37:25Z Bicyclidine: They work on numbers?
2014-07-01T17:37:34Z joe-w-bimedina: matrices
2014-07-01T17:37:48Z Bicyclidine: so... not the same functionality as in lisp.
2014-07-01T17:38:10Z joe-w-bimedina: oh yeah, i meant the max/min part
2014-07-01T17:38:19Z |3b| would probably avoid even wrapping those
2014-07-01T17:38:35Z |3b|: use some existing CL matrix lib for that stuff, and/or implement it in lisp
2014-07-01T17:39:06Z |3b|: focus on the CV parts, not all the random extra non-cv utilities
2014-07-01T17:39:20Z joe-w-bimedina: how does everyone feel about gsll here?
2014-07-01T17:39:23Z |3b|: "CV parts" as in "parts that do computer vision"
2014-07-01T17:39:29Z joe-w-bimedina: understood
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2014-07-01T17:39:35Z JackEgivand: gsll is......slow
2014-07-01T17:39:45Z JackEgivand: in my experience, you'll get the most speed out of openBLAS
2014-07-01T17:40:01Z joe-w-bimedina: is openblas lisp?
2014-07-01T17:40:02Z JackEgivand: if were talking about the same gsll...
2014-07-01T17:40:05Z JackEgivand: nope
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2014-07-01T17:40:15Z JackEgivand: its in C
2014-07-01T17:40:38Z JackEgivand: i guess thats not much help...
2014-07-01T17:40:38Z Bicyclidine: gsll is the GNU Scientific Library for lisp, so, cffi or whatever
2014-07-01T17:40:42Z JackEgivand: right
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2014-07-01T17:40:48Z JackEgivand: last time i tried it it wouldn't load properly
2014-07-01T17:41:00Z joe-w-bimedina: it is Liam Healy's  GSLL
2014-07-01T17:41:06Z joe-w-bimedina: on which platform?
2014-07-01T17:41:16Z joe-w-bimedina: wouldn't it load
2014-07-01T17:41:25Z JackEgivand: sbcl, running under slime, in emacs on fedora 20
2014-07-01T17:41:30Z JackEgivand: actually though it looks like its loading now
2014-07-01T17:41:42Z JackEgivand: i
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2014-07-01T17:41:52Z JackEgivand: i'll let you know in a minute if that loading problem has been fixed
2014-07-01T17:41:56Z JackEgivand: it was an issue with grovel before
2014-07-01T17:42:03Z JackEgivand: yep it loads now
2014-07-01T17:42:07Z JackEgivand: cffi has fixed their grovel
2014-07-01T17:42:13Z |3b| isn't sure if using some other FFI library is a good solution to avoiding FFI or not :/
2014-07-01T17:42:39Z JackEgivand: FFI works well, its just hard to find good documentaiton
2014-07-01T17:42:50Z JackEgivand: the other side of that coin is, CFFI has a freaking book for their documentation
2014-07-01T17:43:03Z JackEgivand: which, imho, is a bit much
2014-07-01T17:43:19Z didi: There is no such thing as "too much documentation".
2014-07-01T17:43:22Z joe-w-bimedina: If i did wrap openblas might it be as slow as gsll or is it because the author added so much stuff that gsll is slow
2014-07-01T17:43:35Z JackEgivand: no, the problem isn't with the lisp package
2014-07-01T17:43:40Z JackEgivand: its with the compilation flags
2014-07-01T17:43:46Z JackEgivand: that they used for the c code behind gsll
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2014-07-01T17:44:09Z joe-w-bimedina: would that be an easy fix?
2014-07-01T17:44:12Z JackEgivand: to get good speeds out of these things they have to be compiled with -O2 and higher...should be
2014-07-01T17:44:17Z JackEgivand: you can just recompile the backends probably
2014-07-01T17:44:33Z |3b|: JackEgivand: ffi is OK, but pure lisp code is usually nicer to use
2014-07-01T17:44:48Z JackEgivand: |3b|: I completely agree with you
2014-07-01T17:44:53Z Xach: and you can use it with mocl (maybe)
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2014-07-01T17:45:07Z quasus: joe-w-bimedina: perhaps tr or spur or sp?
2014-07-01T17:45:17Z |3b|: JackEgivand: an i was suggesting avoiding some FFI in favor of using pure lisp libs, in which case using a different FFI lib isn't really helping :)
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2014-07-01T17:45:28Z JackEgivand: ah, i see
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2014-07-01T17:45:38Z JackEgivand: well actually thats what i was working on as the side project
2014-07-01T17:45:43Z JackEgivand: all of these things use BLAS as the backend
2014-07-01T17:45:44Z |3b| wonders how hard it would be to port cffi to mocl
2014-07-01T17:45:48Z joe-w-bimedina: exactly I should reimplement as much as I can in lisp,  what is tr spur. sp
2014-07-01T17:45:56Z JackEgivand: which as we know, is ugly and horrible and written in fortran
2014-07-01T17:46:04Z JackEgivand: which was why i was looking at how to do SIMD stuff
2014-07-01T17:46:20Z |3b|: JackEgivand: dump it on a gpu :)
2014-07-01T17:46:32Z JackEgivand: was going to once i get more time
2014-07-01T17:46:43Z JackEgivand: i keep getting invited to stuff though, and the wife is a bit of a socialite
2014-07-01T17:46:48Z |3b|: though if you need doubles, that could get expensive
2014-07-01T17:47:00Z quasus: joe-w-bimedina: tr is the common notation for trace, e. g. tr A. Another notation is Sp A from the German term Spur.  Spur beside eigenvectors isn't that bad. :(
2014-07-01T17:47:34Z quasus: wrong parenthesis
2014-07-01T17:47:48Z JackEgivand: lol
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2014-07-01T17:48:44Z joe-w-bimedina: quasus:  that is not a bad idea, tr
2014-07-01T17:50:56Z drmeiste_: Would it be valid Common Lisp semantics to have interpreted functions automatically compile themselves?
2014-07-01T17:51:31Z drmeiste_: I know that it's valid at the REPL to implicitly compile S-expressions and then evaluate them.
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2014-07-01T17:51:48Z joe-w-bimedina: |drmeiste_|: when you get a chance,  is it ready yet?
2014-07-01T17:52:11Z drmeiste_: I have a slow S-expression walking interpreter and a compiler that generates much faster code.
2014-07-01T17:52:18Z Bicyclidine: drmeiste_: I'm not sure what you mean but having everything compiled is fine.
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2014-07-01T17:52:38Z |3b|: drmeiste_: i think if you do minimal compilation instead of having ""interpreted functions" you can compile it more any time you want
2014-07-01T17:52:57Z JackEgivand: isnt that what sbcl does anyway?
2014-07-01T17:53:09Z Bicyclidine: sbcl compiles everything usually, yes.
2014-07-01T17:53:16Z Bicyclidine: as does ccl i think.
2014-07-01T17:53:17Z drmeiste_: When I bootstrap, many fdefinitions of functions are defined as "interpreted" functions - meaning, they contain their code as a CONS.
2014-07-01T17:53:30Z |3b|: theyt do full compilation, not just "minimal" though
2014-07-01T17:53:40Z Bicyclidine: sure. you could do either one of course.
2014-07-01T17:53:42Z drmeiste_: Once the compiler is up I can explicitly compile them using (COMPILE nil 'XXXX).
2014-07-01T17:53:56Z jasom: sbcl no longer compiles extremely simple expressions on the REPL, and there are ways to tell it to interpret more complex things IIRC
2014-07-01T17:54:11Z drmeiste_: Or when they are applied, I could have them recognize that they are still interpreted, just-in-time compile themselves and then from then on evaluate the compiled code.
2014-07-01T17:54:22Z Bicyclidine: jasom: if it runs into a lambda it goes to compilation, i'm pretty sure.
2014-07-01T17:54:32Z jasom: Bicyclidine: yes
2014-07-01T17:54:43Z Bicyclidine: drmeiste_: yeah, that's fine.
2014-07-01T17:55:08Z Bicyclidine: i don't think there's any situation in which (not (compiled-function-p foo)) has to be true
2014-07-01T17:55:30Z drmeiste_: Bicyclidine: Thanks.   If I JIT compile them then there is no danger that I'll miss some.
2014-07-01T17:55:40Z |3b|: Bicyclidine: main situation i'd wonder about is right after (compiled-function-p foo) returned false
2014-07-01T17:55:59Z jasom: Any function may be considered by an implementation to be a a compiled function if it contains no references to macros that must be expanded at run time, and it contains no unresolved references to load time values. See Section 3.2.2 (Compilation Semantics).
2014-07-01T17:56:00Z |3b|: not sure what you could do with it at that point where it would matter though
2014-07-01T17:56:32Z |3b|: jasom: right, that's what i meant about being able to do more compilation if it already had 'minimal compilation'
2014-07-01T17:56:41Z drmeiste_: My interpreted functions contain references to macros and unresolved references to load-time-values.
2014-07-01T17:56:46Z jasom: It is required to be compiled-function if it was loaded from a file compiled with compile-file or produced by the function compile
2014-07-01T17:56:55Z jasom: Otherwise it's unspecificed I think.
2014-07-01T17:57:38Z |3b| would say if JIT makes something else easier/better, try it until someone complains :)
2014-07-01T17:58:32Z drmeiste_: joe-w-bimedina: Not yet - I'm getting it running on Linux and I'm trying to get the Memory Pool System garbage collector working with it properly.    It has been working with the Boehm GC for weeks on OS X.
2014-07-01T17:58:49Z |3b| wonders if a conforming program could legitimately assume a function for which compiled-function-p returned false would see modifications to a macro used in that function
2014-07-01T17:59:25Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks for the info,  looking forward to the release...btw is it fast?
2014-07-01T17:59:38Z Bicyclidine: |3b|: what i meant was that compiled-function-p never has to return false -> there are no non-compiled functions. perhaps i could have phrased it better
2014-07-01T17:59:55Z |3b|: Bicyclidine: we are talking about a case where there are non-compiled functions though
2014-07-01T18:00:04Z drmeiste_: The MPS garbage collector is much trickier to get working with LLVM and C++ than I thought.
2014-07-01T18:00:13Z Bicyclidine: we are? i thought drmeiste_ was asking to compile everything
2014-07-01T18:00:15Z |3b|: question is whether they can turn into compiled-functions without user interaction
2014-07-01T18:00:20Z JackEgivand: oh no! he's talking about clang!
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2014-07-01T18:00:28Z Bicyclidine: oh. hum.
2014-07-01T18:00:46Z |3b|: Bicyclidine: asking whether he could compile them at some arbitrary point in the future, or if any compilation had to be done up front
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2014-07-01T18:01:03Z |3b|: compiling everything in advance is OK
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2014-07-01T18:02:03Z |3b|: if you have done 'minimal compilation', further JIT is explicitly allwed
2014-07-01T18:02:51Z Bicyclidine: yeah, i see, but drmeister might not have a separate minimal compiler.
2014-07-01T18:03:10Z drmeiste_: I don't have a separate minimal compiler.
2014-07-01T18:03:17Z |3b| supposes JITing uncompiled user code might be bad, so you would probably want to only apply it to implementation code
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2014-07-01T18:03:39Z |3b|: user code might have compile-time side effects, which you wouldn't want happening at random without user telling you to COMPILE
2014-07-01T18:04:27Z drmeiste_: Or rather, I have an S-expression walking interpreter used only for bootstrapping and a native code JIT compiler.
2014-07-01T18:04:58Z JackEgivand: drmeiste: do you have a name for this yet?
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2014-07-01T18:05:25Z drmeiste_: My problem was some interpreted functions from bootstrapping are still in the system after everything else was compiled.   They slow compilation down, they generate very deep stacks and MPS and profiling don't like deep stacks.
2014-07-01T18:05:42Z drmeiste_: JackEgivand: Name: "Clasp"
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2014-07-01T18:07:06Z |3b| would probably try to just compile them all at once
2014-07-01T18:07:24Z drmeiste_: Here's what I'm currently doing: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/42eb479f507563f08b09
2014-07-01T18:08:23Z drmeiste_: What could I miss with that?   Interpreted functions in value slots of symbols that are FUNCALLed?
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2014-07-01T18:09:06Z |3b|: try it and find out? :p
2014-07-01T18:09:41Z |3b|: presumably if you have some hook you could use to add JIT to interpreted functions, you could instrument it to just tell you it was called
2014-07-01T18:10:19Z |3b|: alternately, if you have any tools for walking the heap that would probably be the most reliable way to find them
2014-07-01T18:10:23Z drmeiste_: Yeah - so I created a dynamic variable core:*debug-interpreted-functions* and once I SETQ it to "T" anytime an interpreted function is invoked it prints a message to stdout.
2014-07-01T18:11:14Z drmeiste_: |3b|: Walking the heap - that's a good idea - I can do that for both Boehm and MPS garbage collectors.
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2014-07-01T18:16:20Z drmeiste_: I've been wrestling with garbage collectors for about two months now.   Boehm has been working well.  MPS is more... fussy but should be ~4 times faster than Boehm.  MPS appears to slow way, way, way down when the stack gets very deep.  Bootstrapping uses the interpreter which generates very deep stacks.
2014-07-01T18:16:31Z drmeiste_: Also my Reader is recursive and also generates deep stacks.
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2014-07-01T18:17:44Z drmeiste_: I cross-compile a minimal CL system (no CLOS) using the Boehm GC and then use that with the MPS version to compile the full CL system.
2014-07-01T18:18:23Z drmeiste_: That is still slow and my current hypothesis is that it is the remaining interpreted functions and the reader - creating deep stacks and slowing down MPS.
2014-07-01T18:18:27Z drmeiste_: Grrrr.
2014-07-01T18:21:20Z didi: Can I declare the type of a `for' variable inside a loop? I have (loop for i = 4 then (+ i 4) until (> i 12) do ...) and SBLC warns me about uncertain regarding i's type.
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2014-07-01T18:22:37Z |3b|: didi: loop for i fixnum ... or loop for i of-type (some-type ...) ...
2014-07-01T18:22:50Z didi: |3b|: Cool. Thank you.
2014-07-01T18:23:33Z |3b| forgets which types you can use without OF-TYPE, at least fixnum and the specific float types like single-float
2014-07-01T18:24:03Z jasom: simple-type-spec::= fixnum | float | t | nil
2014-07-01T18:24:29Z jasom: I have no idea what a for variable of type nil would be used for
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2014-07-01T18:26:21Z jasom: you can even do fancy things for (foo bar) of-type (integer float) on list by #'cddr I think
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2014-07-01T18:41:14Z joe-w-bimedina: is there any way to set the emacs repl history buffer to infinite
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2014-07-01T18:48:13Z JackEgivand: joe-w-bimedina.....ive never run into that problem before
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2014-07-01T18:48:18Z JackEgivand: how many lines is yours?
2014-07-01T18:48:28Z joe-w-bimedina: maybe 200
2014-07-01T18:48:31Z JackEgivand: ive gone back 50,000 lines before and never had any problem
2014-07-01T18:48:41Z JackEgivand: what version of emacs and slime?
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2014-07-01T18:49:09Z JackEgivand: (and just to be clear, were talking about when you scroll back up to see what youve done right?)
2014-07-01T18:49:15Z H4ns: if one could only search the repl history...
2014-07-01T18:49:46Z joe-w-bimedina: emacs24 and slim,e 12-11-2013...yes and I agree H4ns
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2014-07-01T18:50:12Z joe-w-bimedina: is it possible to search repl history?
2014-07-01T18:50:18Z joe-w-bimedina: like in bash
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2014-07-01T18:50:41Z JackEgivand: hmm. i dont think its your emacs. im also using that version...as for slime, not sure, as im using a packaged version
2014-07-01T18:50:43Z JackEgivand: from fedora 19
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2014-07-01T18:51:03Z JackEgivand: are you using the command line version of the graphics version?
2014-07-01T18:51:10Z JackEgivand: or*
2014-07-01T18:51:13Z joe-w-bimedina: the gui
2014-07-01T18:51:16Z JackEgivand: hmm
2014-07-01T18:51:29Z JackEgivand: i have no idea if that would affect it....i always use the command line version cause im sshing all the time
2014-07-01T18:51:42Z JackEgivand: i know how i can find out though :)
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2014-07-01T18:51:47Z JackEgivand: give me a couple of minutes
2014-07-01T18:51:52Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks:)
2014-07-01T18:52:03Z JackEgivand: time to put that change enumerator to good use lol
2014-07-01T18:53:05Z JackEgivand: how many lines can you get to?
2014-07-01T18:53:14Z joe-w-bimedina: 205
2014-07-01T18:53:37Z JackEgivand: huh. im at line 1690 and still able to go all the way back
2014-07-01T18:53:43Z JackEgivand: hrm
2014-07-01T18:53:45Z JackEgivand: how much ram do you have?
2014-07-01T18:54:56Z joe-w-bimedina: cool I just found it C-h-v slime-repl-history-size set at 200...4GB
2014-07-01T18:55:53Z JackEgivand: i havent got that variable..weird
2014-07-01T18:56:02Z JackEgivand: well i guess that fixes your problem though
2014-07-01T18:56:08Z JackEgivand: i guess it was the version of slime we were using?
2014-07-01T18:56:27Z joe-w-bimedina: that is weird,  is there a history function like in bash in emacs?
2014-07-01T18:57:00Z JackEgivand: i dunno, i only use it for lisp code and text editing....and using bash....and checking what day it is sometimes
2014-07-01T18:58:26Z joe-w-bimedina: you know what I mean right, you type history at the bash prompt and it displays all your history as a list
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2014-07-01T18:58:40Z JackEgivand: yeah yeah i know what you mean, i just don't know if emacs has one of thsoe
2014-07-01T18:59:16Z joe-w-bimedina: cool,  I thought we got our signals crossed
2014-07-01T18:59:21Z JackEgivand: nope
2014-07-01T18:59:32Z JackEgivand: i have a special signal-uncrosser i use
2014-07-01T18:59:38Z JackEgivand: just to be sure
2014-07-01T19:00:28Z joe-w-bimedina: cool is it M-x special-signal-uncrosser?
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2014-07-01T19:01:14Z JackEgivand: wow you found it already? it took me weeks of digging through the manual to find that lol
2014-07-01T19:01:55Z joe-w-bimedina: funny
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2014-07-01T22:02:49Z maxr`: Hi
2014-07-01T22:03:28Z maxr`: Does anybody know how I can make swank listen on *:<port> instead of 127.0.0.1:<port>
2014-07-01T22:03:30Z maxr`: ?
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2014-07-01T22:05:31Z Bicyclidine: What's *?
2014-07-01T22:05:39Z jasom: probably 0.0.0.0
2014-07-01T22:05:39Z didi: maxr`: It doesn't seem like a wise thing to do.
2014-07-01T22:06:19Z maxr`: ah my bad
2014-07-01T22:06:36Z maxr`: I just used the wrong ssh command for tunneling
2014-07-01T22:07:03Z jasom: It looks like loopback is hard-coded into create-server
2014-07-01T22:07:25Z jasom: oh wait, you could bind swank::*loopback-interface*
2014-07-01T22:07:45Z _death: ssh tunnel is the right solution
2014-07-01T22:07:49Z maxr`: jasom: nvm I just misused ssh
2014-07-01T22:08:06Z jasom: ah
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2014-07-01T22:19:23Z j7a21ne3: do I have to learn emacs to program in common lisp?
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2014-07-01T22:20:03Z quasus: no, vim suffices ;)
2014-07-01T22:20:04Z |3b|: no, but the best tools for CL programming currently are for emacs
2014-07-01T22:20:04Z antoszka: j7a21ne3: no, but it's useful
2014-07-01T22:20:08Z Shinmera: You don't have to use a hammer to pound nails into a wall, but it helps.
2014-07-01T22:20:27Z |3b|: vim seems to be 2nd, not sure if there is a 3rd :(
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2014-07-01T22:20:30Z j7a21ne3: but isn't emacs lisp different from common lisp
2014-07-01T22:20:34Z antoszka: j7a21ne3: you may also want to use evil (a vim emulation layer for emacs) if you're proficient with that
2014-07-01T22:20:39Z |3b|: it is
2014-07-01T22:20:42Z antoszka: j7a21ne3: it is, but you don't get to use it much
2014-07-01T22:20:43Z Shinmera: Learning emacs and learning elisp are two different tasks.
2014-07-01T22:20:48Z |3b|: slime is the important part, not elisp
2014-07-01T22:20:57Z j7a21ne3: ah ok
2014-07-01T22:21:36Z |3b|: though many find having a similar extension language for their editor to their main language convenient (which is one reason for slime being one of the best options for CL development)
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2014-07-01T22:22:35Z j7a21ne3: cool i was afraid to start using emacs and accidently spend hours learning the wrong thing. I'll just make sure to install and configure SLIME
2014-07-01T22:24:29Z antoszka: keep in mind the evil option too
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2014-07-01T22:25:57Z j7a21ne3: I just want to start coding in common lisp and making mistakes. I hate getting caught up in the details
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2014-07-01T22:28:47Z pjb: j7a21ne3: emacs lisp is different from common lisp, but less than whatever vim uses for its customization.
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2014-07-01T22:32:42Z Denommus: whatever you use, paredit is awesome
2014-07-01T22:32:46Z j7a21ne3: ok so when my professor tells me to start learning Common Lisp, what would be the best setup. without the BS.  is it? Emacs + SBCL + SlIME + QuickLisp?
2014-07-01T22:33:14Z pjb: I'd use emacs+slime+paredit+quicklisp+ccl
2014-07-01T22:33:34Z Denommus: same as pjb, but sbcl instead of ccl
2014-07-01T22:33:44Z Denommus: j7a21ne3: what is your Operating System?
2014-07-01T22:33:53Z |3b|: emacs+slime+sbcl+quicklisp is fine, paredit is a good addition, ccl is a reasonable substitute for sbcl
2014-07-01T22:33:59Z j7a21ne3: amd64
2014-07-01T22:34:05Z j7a21ne3: linux
2014-07-01T22:34:11Z pjb: If you work on MacOSX or MS-Windows, ccl is better than sbcl.
2014-07-01T22:34:15Z pjb: On linux it's equal.
2014-07-01T22:34:16Z Denommus: j7a21ne3: well, SBCL is great under Linux :)
2014-07-01T22:34:38Z Denommus: cl-run is also a nice addition
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2014-07-01T22:41:39Z j7a21ne3: kk thanks then it's decided. Running SBCL with pjb setup
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2014-07-01T23:13:04Z jasom: curl -k -O https://do1.jasom.org/files/setup-ql-slime.sh
2014-07-01T23:13:34Z jasom: j7a21ne3: that will setup sbcl with quicklisp and emacs with slime for you
2014-07-01T23:14:05Z jasom: it is required that sbcl and emacs are already installed
2014-07-01T23:15:34Z jasom: j7a21ne3: also emacs has menu commands for most things that list the keyboard shortcuts next to them, so you can learn emacs features gradually
2014-07-01T23:15:57Z jasom: M-n and M-p for going forward/backwards through the REPL history are two that aren't immediately obvious, but immediately useful though
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2014-07-02T00:31:35Z nydel: g'day lisp hackerings enthusiasts anon
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2014-07-02T01:32:49Z didi: Hum, so apparently there is a maximum size for arrays.
2014-07-02T01:33:04Z Bike: clhs a-t-s-l
2014-07-02T01:33:04Z specbot: array-total-size-limit: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ar_tot.htm
2014-07-02T01:33:37Z didi: Bike: Thank you.
2014-07-02T01:33:54Z Bike: well, hopefully you can survive with no 4611686018427387902-sized arrays
2014-07-02T01:34:21Z didi: Probably with some kind of indirection.
2014-07-02T01:34:37Z didi: I need (expt 2 64).
2014-07-02T01:36:18Z Bike: Really?
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2014-07-02T01:36:47Z didi: Yeap. It's a "hashtable".
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2014-07-02T01:36:59Z Bike: What the heck are you doing that you need eighteen quintillion values
2014-07-02T01:37:28Z didi: Bike: All combinations of a 4x4 board, each containing a value from 0 to 15.
2014-07-02T01:38:15Z Bike: you're going to have to reconsider what you're doing because you do not have that much memory.
2014-07-02T01:38:21Z didi: Yeah.
2014-07-02T01:38:30Z didi: First approximation is out.
2014-07-02T01:38:31Z Bike: for example, you could store all boards with a 0 in the first spot together, bla bla bla.
2014-07-02T01:38:35Z Bike: a nice tree.
2014-07-02T01:38:55Z didi: Hum.
2014-07-02T01:39:20Z Bike: by "hash table" i bet you mean that at any given time you do not, in fact, need to associate a value with every individual board.
2014-07-02T01:40:43Z Bike: hash table implementations don't generally allocate memory for every possible hash code
2014-07-02T01:40:48Z didi: Correct. I have a function that calculates a board to another. I want to speed it up. Each board is actually a (unsigned-byte 64).
2014-07-02T01:41:14Z didi: It's a board from the 2048 game, if you are familiar with it.
2014-07-02T01:41:33Z Bike: Try a trie
2014-07-02T01:42:41Z didi: Thanks. I'm first try using this new implementation and see if that implementation is fast enough. I was using vectors as boards instead.
2014-07-02T01:42:54Z didi: s/I'm/I'll
2014-07-02T01:43:24Z |3b|: didi: array indices are fixnums, so it might be significantly lower limit (particularly 32bit clisp, with 24 bit fixnums)
2014-07-02T01:43:53Z Bike: also you might want to look into chess, specifically 'bitboards', i imagine they've worked out some hilariously specialized techniques
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2014-07-02T01:46:25Z didi: |3b|: Thanks. I'm using SBCL in the moment and for this problem I'm up for using every SBCL extension I can.
2014-07-02T01:46:35Z didi: Bike: Cool, thank you.
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2014-07-02T01:47:17Z |3b|: unlikely to have enough memory (or even address space) on 64 bit systems for the fixnum limit to be a problem, even with bitvectors
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2014-07-02T01:47:57Z didi: Oh well. I will have to think on another solution then.
2014-07-02T01:50:52Z |3b|: consider storing 1 byte per element in an array with 32 bit indices is 4GB, a large hard drive only gets you another 10 bits or so, and you probably want more than 1 byte per entry
2014-07-02T01:51:05Z |3b|: so you really want some sparse representation rather than an array anyway
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2014-07-02T01:52:53Z didi: Ah, true.
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2014-07-02T01:54:37Z didi: Hummmmm. I don't have to make a table with all permutations. Rows and columns repeat themselves.
2014-07-02T01:54:52Z didi: Uuuuh. :^)
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2014-07-02T02:19:58Z phao: Hi. Which is a good book on lisp. I've done some scheme already by reading sicp, little schemer, seasoned scheme, and some other scheme books. But I'd like to learn common lisp too. Which is a good book I could look at?
2014-07-02T02:20:25Z |3b|: minion: tell phao about pcl
2014-07-02T02:20:25Z minion: phao: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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2014-07-02T02:20:42Z phao: Ok. Thanks.
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2014-07-02T02:22:03Z loke: It's a really good book
2014-07-02T02:22:21Z phao: I see. Cool then. =D
2014-07-02T02:22:35Z loke: My only issue is that it's not mentioning Quicklisp (because it was published before QL came out, of course)
2014-07-02T02:23:10Z Xach: that's no excuse
2014-07-02T02:23:20Z phao: hehe
2014-07-02T02:23:22Z quasus: +1
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2014-07-02T02:24:47Z loke: Yeah, it should be updated. QL is too important to not be mentioned.
2014-07-02T02:25:25Z quasus: "On Lisp" is a good book. it isn't for a beginner, but illustrates what makes lisp different
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2014-07-02T02:41:54Z phao: quasus, that's the one by paul graham right?
2014-07-02T02:42:10Z phao: I started reading it some years ago. I had to stop because of college, and never got back to it.
2014-07-02T02:42:30Z quasus: yeah, that's it
2014-07-02T02:42:35Z Zhivago: Colleges and their forbidden material list.
2014-07-02T02:42:59Z quasus: I haven't read it from cover to cover either. :)
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2014-07-02T03:11:06Z pjb: phao: you might be interested in PAIP if you've already read all those scheme books.
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2014-07-02T03:19:36Z phao: ok
2014-07-02T03:19:37Z phao: thanks
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2014-07-02T05:34:55Z jasom: I'm going to start on "Lisp in small pieces" next week; I've heard good things...
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2014-07-02T06:23:03Z theos: jasom go for ACL
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2014-07-02T06:34:29Z Shinmera: Good morning, #lisp
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2014-07-02T06:37:50Z hitecnologys: Good morning, Shinmera.
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2014-07-02T06:38:31Z hitecnologys: I should have probably changed my nick to "#lisp", though.
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2014-07-02T06:38:58Z Shinmera: I don't think you can
2014-07-02T06:39:11Z hitecnologys: Neither do I.
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2014-07-02T06:39:46Z lisp: Huh.
2014-07-02T06:40:23Z lisp: No, can't change to #lisp. But I'm surprised "lisp" isn't occupied by anyone at the moment.
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2014-07-02T07:28:57Z hitecnologys: Have anyone did analysis of ironclad's PRNG? Should I better use cl-isaac for generation of good-quality random numbers?
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2014-07-02T07:59:23Z Cymew: Anyone do much CL work for shell scripting and suchlike? Is inferior-shell or uiop the way to go? Best practices, anyone?
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2014-07-02T08:50:08Z PuercoPop: Cymew: maybe you'll find this useful: https://github.com/rpav/ScriptL
2014-07-02T08:52:16Z Cymew: PuercoPop: Interesting project. Thanks for the link!
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2014-07-02T10:39:12Z quasus: PuercoPop: good link, thanks!
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2014-07-02T10:40:01Z quasus: Cymew: yes, probably uiop + inferior-shell + cl-launch
2014-07-02T10:41:01Z quasus: but I think it's crucial to save images with the libraries being used
2014-07-02T10:41:45Z quasus: loading libraries is a bottleneck with respect to time
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2014-07-02T10:43:25Z Cymew: True
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2014-07-02T10:45:54Z quasus: if you don't tweak a Lisp to automatically save images with new libraries, there may be problems with porting to non-lispers' computers
2014-07-02T10:46:31Z quasus: if you do tweak Lisp, there may be problems with porting to lispers' computers :)
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2014-07-02T10:47:29Z Zhivago: Sounds like a diagnosis for crappy build system. :)
2014-07-02T10:47:54Z quasus: I think cl-launch builds quite fine
2014-07-02T10:48:20Z Zhivago: Then you shouldn't need to worry about images.
2014-07-02T10:49:02Z quasus: ah, you mean one image per script
2014-07-02T10:49:19Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: wrong, you should always worry.
2014-07-02T10:49:51Z quasus: three SBCL images > 100 MiB
2014-07-02T10:50:55Z hitecnologys: One-image-per-scrupt isn't very good approach.
2014-07-02T10:50:55Z quasus: I'd better have a lisp plus *one* image with needed libraries
2014-07-02T10:51:31Z hitecnologys: You can save image with all the libraries and then #!/usr/bin/sbcl --core libs.core --script
2014-07-02T10:51:50Z stassats: can't do that
2014-07-02T10:52:37Z hitecnologys: Bleh.
2014-07-02T10:53:30Z Zhivago: If your build system works, why are you worrying? :)
2014-07-02T10:53:39Z hitecnologys: Then I can only suggest insanity: do what busybox does.
2014-07-02T10:53:45Z quasus: if a script depends on a cl-foobar library, the lisp on the target machine could be asked to include it in the core used for scripts
2014-07-02T10:53:46Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: because it never works fine.
2014-07-02T10:53:57Z Zhivago: Which brings us back to: Sounds like a diagnosis for crappy build system. :)
2014-07-02T10:54:17Z quasus: Zhivago: because there are a few ways in the nature of building Lisp
2014-07-02T10:54:45Z Zhivago: As long as they work, why would it matter?
2014-07-02T10:54:47Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: there are no good build systems, there are only those which work better than others.
2014-07-02T10:55:00Z stassats: Zhivago: you mean, crappy evaluation model?
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2014-07-02T10:56:55Z quasus: Zhivago: basically, cl-launch can do what we want.  But we don't quite know what we want.
2014-07-02T10:56:57Z hitecnologys: Here's the way: make the core with all possible stuff inside, make symlinks to this core names after requied scripts. Detection of selected script is possible by looking at (first sb-posix:*argv*).
2014-07-02T10:58:12Z hitecnologys: Clumsy and big but should be at lest fast.
2014-07-02T11:00:20Z hitecnologys: s/lest/least/
2014-07-02T11:00:39Z quasus: another option would be to make a command line wrapper for quicklisp cl-apt-get install foobar; it would also rewrite the saved core
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2014-07-02T11:01:27Z stassats: not all code can live together in the same image
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2014-07-02T11:03:13Z hitecnologys: This may be a problem, yes.
2014-07-02T11:05:02Z loke: Once complied, SBCL loads fasl's very quickly.
2014-07-02T11:05:13Z loke: I don't really see the problem that saving a core fixes
2014-07-02T11:05:46Z stassats: except that sbcl doesn't load fasls very quickly
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2014-07-02T11:06:02Z hitecnologys: loke: not that fast. If you're ready to wait to half a second before running your script, then fine, go ahead.
2014-07-02T11:06:14Z loke: hitecnologys: Oh for scripts
2014-07-02T11:06:21Z stassats: for anything
2014-07-02T11:06:29Z loke: hitecnologys: for that, I do save an image. But I save an image for the whole program.
2014-07-02T11:07:00Z loke: Most code I write is server code. A half-second delay (or even several seconds) have absolutely zero impact on me
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2014-07-02T11:07:46Z stassats: it takes 4 second to load my application from fasls
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2014-07-02T11:09:04Z stassats: and that's not a really complicated one
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2014-07-02T11:10:29Z quasus: about conflicting software in one image: theoretically is it possible to detect a conflict before installation?
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2014-07-02T11:13:31Z hitecnologys: quasus: I don't think so.
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2014-07-02T11:14:24Z hitecnologys: quasus: even though you can scan for overlapping symbols, Lisp applications can build one in runtime. You would have to load code to another image and then see what happens before making any decisons.
2014-07-02T11:15:24Z quasus: ah, obviously
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2014-07-02T13:06:52Z drmeiste_: Is there something that controls the case of pathname name conversions?   On OS X case doesn't matter for pathnames.   On Linux it does and for some reason my pathname routines are converting names to lowercase.
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2014-07-02T13:09:22Z hitecnologys: drmeiste_: are you sure you type them in correct case?
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2014-07-02T13:11:14Z drmeiste_: (translate-logical-pathname "app:Contents;Resources;lib;release;intrinsics_bitcode_boehm.o") -->  #P"/home/meister/Development/clasp/build/cando.app/contents/resources/lib/release/intrinsics_bitcode_boehm.o"
2014-07-02T13:11:19Z H4ns: drmeiste_: logical pathnames are case insensitive.
2014-07-02T13:11:40Z drmeiste_: Notice "Contents" and "Resources" are loosing capitalization.
2014-07-02T13:12:08Z H4ns: drmeiste_: don't use logical pathnames if you want to see case be preserved
2014-07-02T13:12:28Z hitecnologys: clhs make-pathname
2014-07-02T13:12:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_pn.htm
2014-07-02T13:13:01Z hitecnologys: drmeiste_: use MAKE-PATHNAME if you want cross-platform and case-sensetive pathnames.
2014-07-02T13:13:15Z drmeiste_: Argh - ok.
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2014-07-02T13:16:22Z hitecnologys: Let's imagine I have kernel that can't suspend to disk. Now how I do I save running sbcl with swank to disk? Just SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE doesn't work for there are multiple threads. Stopping them before may be an option, but I'd like to know all other options I have before switching to this way.
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2014-07-02T13:17:55Z drmeiste_: (truename (make-pathname :host "app" :directory '(:absolute "Contents" "Resources" "lib" "rel\|
2014-07-02T13:17:55Z drmeiste_:    ease") :name "intrinsics_bitcode_boehm" :type "o"))
2014-07-02T13:18:01Z drmeiste_: Damnit
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2014-07-02T13:18:26Z drmeiste_: (truename (make-pathname :host "app" :directory '(:absolute "Contents" "Resources" "lib" "release") :name "intrinsics_bitcode_boehm" :type "o")) --> Fail
2014-07-02T13:18:44Z drmeiste_: CL:FILE-ERROR :initializers (:PATHNAME "/home/meister/Development/clasp/build/cando.app/contents")
2014-07-02T13:18:56Z H4ns: drmeiste_: i'd recommend not trying to use logical pathnames if you need to deal with pathsnames that are created outside of lisp
2014-07-02T13:18:58Z drmeiste_: It's converting "Contents" into "contents"
2014-07-02T13:19:21Z drmeiste_: Am I still using logical pathnames here?
2014-07-02T13:19:24Z hitecnologys: drmeiste_: why are you trying to use TRUENAME?
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2014-07-02T13:19:35Z drmeiste_: Because I'm confused?
2014-07-02T13:19:56Z H4ns: drmeiste_: you may even want to avoid physical pathnames if you want to be prepared to deal with all possible pathnames, as the cl pathname system is restricted in terms of what pathnames it can deal with.
2014-07-02T13:19:58Z hitecnologys: Just plain MAKE-PATHNAME should suffice.
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2014-07-02T13:20:10Z pjb: drmeiste_:  it's implementation dependant how cases are processed in pathnames.  One big problem is that in logical pathanmes, only uppercase are specified.  But implementation differ in their downcasing of logical pathname when building physical pathnames. Some do, some don't.  I feel that on unix systems, they should downcase logical pathnames…
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2014-07-02T13:21:37Z drmeiste_: I need to convert a CL pathname into a unix path so that I can pass it to a shell script.
2014-07-02T13:21:58Z drmeiste_: What I wrote a year ago works on OS X but not Linux.
2014-07-02T13:22:11Z pjb: use namestring
2014-07-02T13:22:22Z pjb: (namestring (truename clpath))
2014-07-02T13:23:03Z drmeiste_: truename fails because of case conversions
2014-07-02T13:23:22Z pjb: Also, if you target unix systems, you can work with path strings instead of pathnames.
2014-07-02T13:23:44Z hitecnologys: pjb: I don't think truename is necessary.
2014-07-02T13:23:59Z pjb: If you have logical pathnames, you can use logical pathname translations to deal with mapping explicitely.
2014-07-02T13:24:12Z pjb: Otherwise you may use physical pathnames or just strings.
2014-07-02T13:24:26Z pjb: hitecnologys:  it was to resolve symlinks, indeed, you can skip it.
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2014-07-02T13:24:50Z mr-foobar: i am currently calling ruby objects, with an external lispy file. I want to have a multi-language solution. should I port or use some-kinda sexpr-rpc ?
2014-07-02T13:25:09Z hitecnologys: pjb: PROBE-FILE can be also used to resolve symlinks, IIRC. It also doesn't do any case-conversions.
2014-07-02T13:25:20Z mr-foobar: (foo "bar") <-> $object.foo("bar")
2014-07-02T13:25:36Z hitecnologys: pjb: ah, no. Forget it, I'm wrong.
2014-07-02T13:25:53Z pjb: (setf (logical-pathname-translation "PGM") '(("PGM:YOURDIR;YOURFILE.TYP" "/some/Path/with/stRANGE/CaSe.type") ("PGM:**;*.*" "/some/Path/**/*.*")))
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2014-07-02T13:29:04Z pjb: drmeiste_: of course, if you use physical pathnames, you just have to write the case correctly.
2014-07-02T13:30:37Z drmeiste_: I'm looking into my implementation to see where the case is being changed.
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2014-07-02T13:37:22Z drmeiste_: I am writing the case correctly but for some reason the case of "Contents" is being downcased: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/97209bb9ad152f189359
2014-07-02T13:38:04Z pjb: drmeiste_: as I said, conforming logical pathnames are specified only with uppercase components.
2014-07-02T13:38:12Z pjb: Anything can happen if you put mixed case there.
2014-07-02T13:38:50Z pjb: In any case, you can write a logical pathname translation to translate your logical pathnames to physical pathnames, mapping the case to what you want.
2014-07-02T13:38:51Z drmeiste_: Sorry - I didn't realize I was still using logical pathnames.  Where is the logical pathname in that?
2014-07-02T13:38:59Z pjb: :host
2014-07-02T13:39:47Z drmeiste_: So I put the case in a logical pathname translation?
2014-07-02T13:39:51Z pjb: Just use physical pathnames: (merge-pathnames #P"lib/release/intrinsics_bitcode_boehm.o" #P"/home/meister/Development/clasp/build/cando.app/Contents/Resources/")
2014-07-02T13:40:16Z pjb: or: (merge-pathnames #P"lib/release/intrinsics_bitcode_boehm.o" (merge-pathnames #P"Development/clasp/build/cando.app/Contents/Resources/" (user-homedir-pathname)))
2014-07-02T13:41:02Z pjb: Otherwise yes, the case would be specified by the logical pathname translations.
2014-07-02T13:41:25Z pjb: There's no shame in using physical pathnames.
2014-07-02T13:41:42Z pjb: It's a honorable death.
2014-07-02T13:41:50Z drmeiste_: I can't use physical pathnames - I need it relative to "app:"
2014-07-02T13:42:20Z pjb: (merge-pathnames #P"relative/physical/path/" #P"APP:") should do.
2014-07-02T13:42:59Z Xach: It is not a weird thing to have a 1 to 1 mapping for a logical pathname to a particular physical one.
2014-07-02T13:43:30Z pjb: or better: (merge-pathnames #P"relative/physical/path/" (translate-logical-pathname #P"APP:"))
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2014-07-02T13:44:45Z Xach: A logical pathname is something like #p"APP:CONFIG-FILE.TXT", which might map to /etc/app.conf on Unix or something else somewhere else. It's not a universal, easy short-prefix system.
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2014-07-02T13:45:06Z Xach: Not just a way to anchor some set of arbitrary, unbounded physical pathnames to a shared base.
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2014-07-02T13:45:57Z Xach: sans "just"
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2014-07-02T13:46:19Z Zhivago: It's for your virtual lisp file-system.
2014-07-02T13:47:11Z Xach: If you are concerned with an automatic mapping to "/home/Bart/.xconf/XFree86_fonts.conf" then it is not the right tool.
2014-07-02T13:48:03Z Xach: a directly specified translation from "X:FONTS.CONF" is probably fine though.
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2014-07-02T14:01:11Z hitecnologys: Any ideas about saving image with multiple threads running?
2014-07-02T14:01:15Z didi: What does SBCL's `doing unsigned word to integer coercion (cost 20) from X to "<return value>"' note mean and how can I fix it? The http://pastebin.kde.org/pteua6e2c/s2rgpx code is the one throwing the compiler note. I'm interested in `x' as a (unsigned-byte 64).
2014-07-02T14:01:23Z stassats: hitecnologys: yes, don't
2014-07-02T14:01:43Z stassats: didi: you can't
2014-07-02T14:01:51Z hitecnologys: stassats: I see.
2014-07-02T14:02:16Z didi: stassats: Awwww.
2014-07-02T14:02:35Z Xach: stassats: Would it help to do manual boxing with an ub64 vector?
2014-07-02T14:02:41Z Xach: "help" in some vague sense of the term
2014-07-02T14:02:43Z stassats: didi: inlining would help at the call site
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2014-07-02T14:03:03Z hitecnologys: How do I list all running threads then?
2014-07-02T14:03:14Z Xach: hitecnologys: the obscurely-named (sb-thread:list-all-threads)
2014-07-02T14:03:35Z didi: stassats: Hum. So the value is used as is on place.
2014-07-02T14:03:44Z hitecnologys: Xach: crap, didn't notice it for some reasons. Thanks and sorry for stupid questions.
2014-07-02T14:04:37Z stassats: Xach: it will help with consing, as well as a structure
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2014-07-02T14:28:01Z hitecnologys: OK, stopping all thread and then saving image seems to work and load fine after I restart swank. But I'm unable to store image under slime's REPL. It just says "Evaluation aborted on NIL". Now what's wrong?
2014-07-02T14:28:14Z hitecnologys: s/all thread/all threads/
2014-07-02T14:30:35Z stassats: don't save the image from slime
2014-07-02T14:31:13Z hitecnologys: I know, but what is it happening?
2014-07-02T14:31:27Z hitecnologys: Damn it, s/what/why/
2014-07-02T14:31:54Z hitecnologys: Something is wrong with me today.
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2014-07-02T15:05:34Z paul0: I've downloaded a rss feed using drakma, and it has the "items" missing
2014-07-02T15:06:38Z Xach: What's the URL?
2014-07-02T15:06:49Z paul0: http://ezrss.it/search/index.php?show_name=South+Park&show_name_exact=true&mode=rss
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2014-07-02T15:07:43Z paul0: that's weird, since drakma should just get the page contents
2014-07-02T15:07:53Z hitecnologys: Not usually.
2014-07-02T15:07:55Z paul0: but it filtered out all item tags
2014-07-02T15:08:12Z hitecnologys: Server may supply different content for dufferent User-Agents.
2014-07-02T15:08:30Z hitecnologys: Have you tried using another UA?
2014-07-02T15:09:00Z paul0: I'll try
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2014-07-02T15:09:38Z Xach: paul0: What specifically are you looking for that is absent? an <items> element, or something else?
2014-07-02T15:09:42Z H4ns: interesting.
2014-07-02T15:09:54Z H4ns: with curl, it has the items, with drakma, it does not.
2014-07-02T15:09:59Z paul0: Xach, I can't see any <item> here
2014-07-02T15:10:00Z H4ns: ua does not help.
2014-07-02T15:10:02Z Xach: ok
2014-07-02T15:10:05Z hitecnologys: Hm.
2014-07-02T15:10:17Z hitecnologys: Well, that's weird.
2014-07-02T15:10:21Z paul0: yeah
2014-07-02T15:10:23Z H4ns: ah, it is the encoding of the parameters, i guess.
2014-07-02T15:10:45Z hitecnologys: It might be, actually.
2014-07-02T15:10:58Z H4ns: yeah.
2014-07-02T15:11:14Z H4ns: try (drakma:http-request "http://ezrss.it/search/index.php" :parameters '(("Show_name" . "South Park")))
2014-07-02T15:11:15Z hitecnologys: But Drakma is behaving wrong in that case.
2014-07-02T15:11:43Z H4ns: hitecnologys: you can find out exactly how and open an issue.
2014-07-02T15:11:58Z H4ns: hitecnologys: i'm going to fix it if it actually is one.
2014-07-02T15:12:09Z stassats: #<PURI:URI http://ezrss.it/search/index.php?show_name=South%2BPark&show_name_exact=true&mode=rss>
2014-07-02T15:12:18Z hitecnologys: H4ns: OK, I'll look into that a bit later.
2014-07-02T15:12:18Z stassats: so, & is not encoded, and + is encoded
2014-07-02T15:12:28Z hitecnologys: Huh.
2014-07-02T15:12:31Z H4ns: you can also use :preserve-uri t
2014-07-02T15:13:03Z H4ns: url encoding and drakma is a long story which boils down to "there is no simple fix to please everyone"
2014-07-02T15:13:38Z Xach: "when in doubt, blame puri"
2014-07-02T15:13:55Z Xach: (that is my motto)
2014-07-02T15:14:00Z H4ns: Xach: puri is the root cause of the problem, that's for sure.
2014-07-02T15:14:27Z H4ns: paul0: can you make progress with the supplied workarounds?
2014-07-02T15:14:39Z paul0: H4ns, preserve-uri works great
2014-07-02T15:15:43Z hitecnologys: H4ns: indeed it seems that the problem is what stassats says. So, I guess it's puri causing these problems, not drakma itself.
2014-07-02T15:16:18Z H4ns: q.e.d., case closed
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2014-07-02T15:37:23Z [1]test1600: Hi all!
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2014-07-02T15:40:39Z test1600: How can I register on http://www.lisptalk.info ?
2014-07-02T15:48:21Z Xach: test1600: good question. i have never heard of that site before. it does not look fully ready for prime time.
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2014-07-02T15:52:17Z JuanDaugherty: test1600, did you want to register to advertise some lisp thing?
2014-07-02T15:52:27Z test1600: Xach: main purpose on this site is contact with developers of movitz os platform
2014-07-02T15:53:35Z JuanDaugherty thought 'movitz' was just a concept/pure aspiration
2014-07-02T15:53:37Z hitecnologys: test1600: don't they have emails?
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2014-07-02T15:54:13Z JuanDaugherty: pneumological, if you will
2014-07-02T15:54:21Z stassats: movitz has developers?
2014-07-02T15:54:41Z test1600: I'm interested in this project, and want to continue develop, but main developer's email does not exists
2014-07-02T15:55:02Z H4ns: test1600: then you need to continue on your own.
2014-07-02T15:55:07Z test1600: in source files I found this contact email Frode Vatvedt Fjeld <frodef@acm.org>
2014-07-02T15:55:43Z JuanDaugherty: track 'im down. May help to spreche the nederlands looks like
2014-07-02T15:55:55Z test1600: when I send email auto-reply sends that email is unknown
2014-07-02T15:56:02Z JuanDaugherty: may have attrited out of IT but that seems unlikely
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2014-07-02T15:56:20Z hitecnologys: test1600: do what H4ns says. I did exactly that with cl-charms: I couldn't reach developer so I had to fork it and continue development by myself.
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2014-07-02T15:58:36Z test1600: according to the last messages on this forum http://2.lisp-movitz-development.lisptalk.info developer may reply to questions
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2014-07-02T15:59:23Z H4ns: is that not the movitz-devel mailing list?
2014-07-02T15:59:53Z test1600: H4ns: maybe
2014-07-02T15:59:56Z H4ns: send mail to movitz-devel-subscriber@common-lisp.net
2014-07-02T16:00:13Z H4ns: erm, movitz-devel-subscribe@common-lisp.net
2014-07-02T16:00:28Z test1600: H4ns: ok, thanks
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2014-07-02T16:01:35Z test1600: H4ns: of course, I will fork project and continue development, but there were documentation about movitz, and link is broken
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2014-07-02T16:02:31Z test1600: this is project description http://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/movitz.html, with link to the technical documentation
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2014-07-02T16:02:58Z stassats: this lisptalk thing is just a mirror of mailing lists
2014-07-02T16:04:40Z test1600: ok, I've send email to the movitz-devel-subscribe@common-lisp.net, thanks
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2014-07-02T16:06:17Z |3b|: https://web.archive.org/web/20101206133235/http://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/files/movitz.pdf might be the documentation
2014-07-02T16:07:47Z test1600: |3b|: cool, that is what I was searching, thank you
2014-07-02T16:08:06Z |3b| wonders if there are permissions problems on it from one of the c-l.net moves, more recent version on archive.org has a 'forbidden' page
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2014-07-02T16:11:17Z test1600: Also I interested in porting common lisp environments, like movitz, to the devices like arduino and etc. Can you give me some advice, or related projects, docs?
2014-07-02T16:12:19Z stassats: cl it's not really suited for that
2014-07-02T16:12:22Z |3b|: arduino sounds a bit small for a full CL
2014-07-02T16:13:26Z drmeiste_: How much memory does arduino have?
2014-07-02T16:14:07Z |3b|: looks like you can get up to 96k ram, 512k flash, most much smaller
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2014-07-02T16:15:24Z whartung ponders the minimum memory requirements for a compliant CL runtime today.
2014-07-02T16:15:52Z |3b|: you could always try to revive one of the DOS ones
2014-07-02T16:16:06Z |3b|: dunno if they would be considered "compliant" by today's standards though
2014-07-02T16:16:06Z whartung: Back when CL was being developed, I would think 4MB would have been "a lot of RAM" for the time.
2014-07-02T16:18:24Z |3b|: star sapphire CL wants "640K + a hard disk" and supports up to 8MB
2014-07-02T16:18:34Z antoszka: |3b|: by today's standards you mean full ANSI and MOP?
2014-07-02T16:18:47Z stassats: (reduce #'+ (mapcar #'string (apropos-list "" :cl)) :key #'length) => 11271
2014-07-02T16:18:50Z antoszka: or some extras as well?
2014-07-02T16:19:02Z |3b|: antoszka: right, and no random limitations on things like stack depth, symbol length, bignum size, etc
2014-07-02T16:19:04Z stassats: so, 11K is the minimum
2014-07-02T16:19:06Z antoszka: yeah
2014-07-02T16:19:52Z |3b|: stassats: all upper case though, so we could probably reduce it to 5 or 6 bits per char, that saves a k or so :)
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2014-07-02T16:20:47Z |3b|: though there is also the question of ram vs flash vs offline storage, etc
2014-07-02T16:20:50Z stassats: if you do that, then you can just compress them
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2014-07-02T16:20:59Z |3b|: you don't need those symbols all in ram at once for example
2014-07-02T16:21:06Z whartung: I would consider ANSI, not necessarily MOP
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2014-07-02T16:21:26Z stassats: a gcc compilation model would work
2014-07-02T16:21:50Z p_l: demand-loading would work as well
2014-07-02T16:21:59Z stassats: minimum inlining
2014-07-02T16:22:19Z whartung: and I imagine the CLISP would potentially have one of the smaller memory requirements, ostensibly due to code density of its p-code
2014-07-02T16:22:21Z |3b| would just cross compile rather than trying to develop on a machine with < 1mb ram, which would save a lot of the "required by spec" ram
2014-07-02T16:23:13Z stassats: and then there's the GC
2014-07-02T16:24:23Z hitecnologys: Is this Lisp logo with "alien" available somewhere in vector format? Googling doesn't seem to find anything or I may probably be looking at a wrong places.
2014-07-02T16:24:37Z |3b|: yeah, most things i'd want to do on a tiny device like that probably wouldn't be suited to a GC that could also fit in tiny ram :/
2014-07-02T16:24:46Z stassats: hitecnologys: http://www.lisperati.com/logo.html ?
2014-07-02T16:24:59Z hitecnologys: stassats: exactly. Thanks.
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2014-07-02T16:26:03Z drmeiste_: It looks like I'll be releasing with the Boehm GC with work on the MPS GC "in progress".    MPS works but my use case causes it to thrash a lot in "mprotect".
2014-07-02T16:26:22Z |3b|: test1600: if you don't need to go all the way down to arduino size, a few CLs run on things like raspberry pi
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2014-07-02T16:26:50Z |3b|: might be able to find a scheme or other not-CL lisp that runs on arduino too
2014-07-02T16:26:56Z stassats: my desktop had less memory than raspberry pi a few years ago
2014-07-02T16:27:15Z stassats: though the problem with rpi is the cpu
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2014-07-02T16:27:26Z |3b|: yeah
2014-07-02T16:27:30Z hitecnologys: stassats: a few years ago?
2014-07-02T16:27:48Z stassats: did i stutter?
2014-07-02T16:28:45Z hitecnologys: You must be very tough guy to work with less than 512 MB on a desktop computer.
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2014-07-02T16:29:24Z stassats: software was better back then
2014-07-02T16:29:37Z Xach: hitecnologys: was there ever any doubt?
2014-07-02T16:29:47Z hitecnologys: Xach: nope, I don't think so.
2014-07-02T16:30:47Z hitecnologys: It's just that 6 years ago I had 1 GB or so and I felt that it wasn't enough (I used Windows XP, tough. Maybe it was the problem).
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2014-07-02T16:34:02Z stassats: it's always the problem
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2014-07-02T16:35:00Z hitecnologys: Well, back then I couldn't even afford downloading new version of web browser so it doesn't look like I had a choice anyway.
2014-07-02T16:37:06Z test1600: |3b|: Yes, I'll order raspberry pi. Also I can test movitz on it.
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2014-07-02T16:39:08Z |3b| thought movitz was x86 only, so won't work on pi
2014-07-02T16:39:53Z |3b|: and depending on your budget and what you want to do with it, might want to look at other arm devices besides pi as well
2014-07-02T16:40:59Z stassats: the latest arm samsung chromebook is probably the best option for lisp arm development
2014-07-02T16:42:56Z test1600: stassats: do you khow cost of samsung chromebook?
2014-07-02T16:43:14Z test1600: stassats: *know
2014-07-02T16:43:52Z hitecnologys: test1600: you can look it up on eBay.
2014-07-02T16:43:56Z pjb: whartung: you can design compliant subsets of CL.  So there's not really a minimum.
2014-07-02T16:44:16Z stassats: rooted android phones work well too
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2014-07-02T16:44:49Z pjb: whartung: if you want to implement a "full" CL, I guess the biggest constraint would be the size of the symbol names in the CL package!  You would have to find a good way to "compress" them to reduce significantly the footprint of a minimum-space implementation.
2014-07-02T16:45:18Z pjb: whartung: it's believed that it should be quite feasible to pack a CL implementation in 64 KB with space for user programs.
2014-07-02T16:45:21Z didi: Suppose I will need a table for my program to use. Should I add (defvar *table* (long-computation)) to the source file or call (setf *table* (long-computation)) every time I load it from source?
2014-07-02T16:45:39Z stassats: my old galaxy s2 builds sbcl in 34 minutes, raspberry pi does that in 3 hours 5 minutes
2014-07-02T16:46:14Z H4ns: didi: if you can load at load-time (i.e. don't need any external input like db connections or file names), defvar or even defparameter are fine.
2014-07-02T16:46:29Z pjb: whartung: notice also that you may consider a full CL implementation, with a compiler and tree shaker targetting less than 64 KB run-times. (You won't need all the symbol names there, for most programs).
2014-07-02T16:46:55Z stassats: didi: defvar has the same effect
2014-07-02T16:47:20Z didi: H4ns: Thank you.
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2014-07-02T16:47:43Z didi: stassats: I guess I'm worried about keeping the load semantics separated.
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2014-07-02T16:51:20Z pjb: whartung: there are a lot of freedoms left to implementations to optimize in any direction.  The minimum size for fixnums are 16 bits, for array total size are 1024 slots, almost all destructive functions can be synonym to non-destructive ones, you may have only single-floats, etc.
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2014-07-02T17:01:34Z whartung: sure pjb, thanks.
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2014-07-02T17:45:08Z didi: I have an array which maps (unsigned-byte 16) -> (unsigned-byte 16). Is this the most efficient way of declaring it? (make-array (1- (expt 2 16)) :element-type '(unsigned-byte 16))
2014-07-02T17:45:28Z didi: eeer, no 1-, I guess.
2014-07-02T17:45:50Z didi: (make-array (expt 2 16) :element-type '(unsigned-byte 16))
2014-07-02T17:46:06Z |3b|: sounds reasonable
2014-07-02T17:46:17Z didi: Cool.
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2014-07-02T17:50:51Z puchacz: hi, can I push a thread into debugger?
2014-07-02T17:50:59Z puchacz: sbcl
2014-07-02T17:51:28Z puchacz: I know (sb-thread:list-all-threads)
2014-07-02T17:51:40Z stassats: not safely
2014-07-02T17:51:41Z |3b|: bt:interrupt-thread, or sb-thread:interrupt-thread
2014-07-02T17:51:52Z oGMo: (bt:interrupt-thread <thread> #'break)
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2014-07-02T17:51:57Z oGMo: and yes, safely, even in SBCL
2014-07-02T17:51:59Z puchacz: stassats, nah, just for debugging
2014-07-02T17:52:08Z stassats: oGMo: that's not safe
2014-07-02T17:52:10Z oGMo: but perhaps not other random CLs that are not SBCL or CCL
2014-07-02T17:52:13Z oGMo: stassats: refer to the code
2014-07-02T17:52:21Z |3b| trusts the sbcl dev over ogmo :p
2014-07-02T17:52:39Z oGMo: the code last i checked said it was unsafe except for BREAK
2014-07-02T17:52:43Z stassats: it's only safe on sb-safepoint with sb-thruption, any signals are not safe
2014-07-02T17:53:09Z stassats: oGMo: what you interrupt it with doesn't really matter
2014-07-02T17:53:53Z |3b|: hmm, docstring does say that though
2014-07-02T17:54:22Z oGMo: the docstring still says BREAK is safe as of 1.2.0 :P if it's not, someone should fix it
2014-07-02T17:54:23Z Shinmera: iirc any interrupt isn't safe
2014-07-02T17:54:26Z hitecnologys: There's a dirty trich with having HANDLER-BIND inside thread code and doing (bt:interrupt-thread thread #'signal foo). It might be safe, I guess.
2014-07-02T17:54:33Z stassats: well, it's all safe if you don't want to return from it
2014-07-02T17:54:37Z hitecnologys: Damn, s/trich/trick/
2014-07-02T17:54:45Z oGMo: in CCL, break is entirely safe, for any call, which is pretty neat
2014-07-02T17:55:00Z stassats: the problem is foreign code
2014-07-02T17:55:06Z stassats: it doesn't play the games ccl is playing
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2014-07-02T17:55:35Z stassats: if you interrupt foreign code with a signal, all bets are off
2014-07-02T17:55:58Z oGMo: aren't bets pretty much off always wrt signals?
2014-07-02T17:56:17Z stassats: sbcl itself tries to be interrupt safe
2014-07-02T17:56:25Z puchacz: ok, done with debugging. can I kill it so hunchentoot will not reuse it?
2014-07-02T17:56:53Z stassats: hunchentoot doesn't normally reuse anything, but you can just abort it, instead of continuing
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2014-07-02T17:57:02Z puchacz: ah, ok
2014-07-02T17:57:07Z puchacz: thx
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2014-07-02T17:57:38Z puchacz: for what it is worth, I never kill or stop threads externally. I always use a shared variable like continue-p that is checked periodically
2014-07-02T17:57:51Z puchacz: java habits
2014-07-02T17:57:51Z stassats: and sb-thruption doesn't use signals for interrupting, it uses a memory protected page, and when it comes to foreign code, it interrupts only when the call exits
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2014-07-02T17:58:35Z stassats: pclsring is hard
2014-07-02T17:59:00Z puchacz: huh?
2014-07-02T17:59:22Z stassats: google it, it's a classic
2014-07-02T17:59:27Z Bicyclidine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCLSRing shit not breaking
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2014-07-02T17:59:33Z puchacz: :-)
2014-07-02T18:00:26Z H4ns: has anyone come up with a workable way to compile subtrees of a tree of asdf systems in parallel, using sbcl?
2014-07-02T18:00:39Z stassats: poiu?
2014-07-02T18:00:55Z H4ns: i don't know poiu, should i?
2014-07-02T18:01:06Z stassats: if you want what you asked
2014-07-02T18:01:22Z H4ns: yes, but you asked back, so i was not sure :)
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2014-07-02T18:01:52Z stassats: minion: poiu?
2014-07-02T18:01:52Z minion: poiu: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/poiu
2014-07-02T18:02:01Z H4ns: i'm looking at the cliki page
2014-07-02T18:02:05Z H4ns: looks good, thanks!
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2014-07-02T18:02:21Z stassats: never thought to try it
2014-07-02T18:02:50Z H4ns: i parallelized our test running which now makes compilation dominant in testing time
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2014-07-02T18:03:13Z H4ns: thanks!
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2014-07-02T18:05:35Z NewUser: Hello. Can anyone provide guidance on getting asdf to work with SBCL
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2014-07-02T18:05:59Z stassats: it's a no-op
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2014-07-02T18:06:50Z oleo: NewUser: asdf has a site where stuff is already explained ....
2014-07-02T18:06:59Z Xach: NewUser: usually you have to just do (require 'asdf)
2014-07-02T18:07:07Z Xach: NewUser: is something in particular tripping you up?
2014-07-02T18:07:40Z NewUser: Thanks.  (require 'asdf) returns ("ASDF"), then (require 'asdf-install) fails.
2014-07-02T18:07:55Z Xach: asdf-install is not a thing any more
2014-07-02T18:08:01Z Xach: you can safely ignore it and do not try to use it.
2014-07-02T18:08:15Z NewUser: Ah.
2014-07-02T18:08:25Z oleo: use quicklisp
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2014-07-02T18:08:36Z Xach: Quicklisp does many of the things that asdf-install used to do, though in a slightly different way.
2014-07-02T18:09:29Z NewUser: I am trying to load a game 'Option-9'.  Cloned from github, has a bunch of .lisp files and a .asd file... What is the proper way to load it?
2014-07-02T18:09:53Z Xach: NewUser: when i want to do something like that, i usually do this:
2014-07-02T18:10:05Z Xach: cd ~/quicklisp/local-projects ; git clone <clone-url>
2014-07-02T18:10:17Z Xach: then use (ql:quickload "option-9") or whatever the name of the .asd file is.
2014-07-02T18:10:27Z Xach: It does require you install Quicklisp first
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2014-07-02T18:10:58Z H4ns: NewUser: quicklisp is the replacement thing for asdf-install
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2014-07-02T18:11:24Z H4ns: NewUser: you could say that quicklisp is what asdf-install failed to be.
2014-07-02T18:11:54Z NewUser: Thanks, I will do that next.  It drove me crazy, trying to get asdf-install to work as I compiled SBCL myself and assumed that some path bullshit was wrong...
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2014-07-02T18:12:26Z Xach: Nope. Just old docs.
2014-07-02T18:12:44Z Xach: If you're working with something that recommends asdf-install, unfortunately it means that other parts might break from old age, too.
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2014-07-02T18:14:41Z NewUser: I've been getting a lot of that, with all lisp/scheme variants.  It's nearly impossible to find a tutorial or a piece of code that works with the recent versions of lisp/scheme...  I suppose that's true about most things today.
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2014-07-02T18:15:13Z Xach: I think parts of the environment are timeless and parts have a short shelf-life.
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2014-07-02T18:15:21Z Xach: When you're getting started it can be really hard to tell which is which.
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2014-07-02T18:16:37Z jasom: wow, someone just posted on the clisp maling list an alpha isue
2014-07-02T18:17:15Z jasom: tru64 unix
2014-07-02T18:17:34Z NewUser: Lisp may be particularly intimidating, give its age.  I've been coding for about 30 years, but avoided lisp for some reason.  Hard to find information that's between very basic stuff and completely incomprehensible stuff...
2014-07-02T18:17:49Z jasom: minion: tell NewUser about pcl
2014-07-02T18:17:49Z minion: NewUser: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2014-07-02T18:18:04Z Shinmera: One day I'm going to bother uploading my packaged lisp environment and make a tutorial that focuses on a start with that and intro to quicklisp/packages/asdf, which is something sorely missing from PCL.
2014-07-02T18:18:13Z Xach: practical common lisp has good timeless bits and a little bit of dated stuff
2014-07-02T18:18:22Z Xach: paradigms of ai programming has a lot of timeless common lisp stuff
2014-07-02T18:18:34Z jasom: Xach: sounds like time for a new edition
2014-07-02T18:18:38Z NewUser: I have pcl.  A good tutorial would be halpful.
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2014-07-02T18:19:07Z jasom isn't sure how to go about teaching use of quicklisp to someone new to asdf.
2014-07-02T18:19:18Z jasom: I'd been using asdf for years before quicklisp came around
2014-07-02T18:19:40Z jasom: so my understanding of it is a bit inside-out
2014-07-02T18:19:54Z Shinmera: The only quicklisp things most people will need are quickload, dist-upgrade and the local-projects folder.
2014-07-02T18:20:02Z NewUser: So is asdf just broken in SBCL?
2014-07-02T18:20:09Z Shinmera: no
2014-07-02T18:20:11Z H4ns: asdf is not broken
2014-07-02T18:20:13Z jasom: NewUser: not at all, quicklisp is built ontop of asdf
2014-07-02T18:20:24Z NewUser: That's what I thought.
2014-07-02T18:20:27Z H4ns: asdf and asdf-install are two separate things.
2014-07-02T18:20:42Z jasom: asdf-install was also built ontop of (a much older version of) asdf
2014-07-02T18:21:23Z JuanDaugherty: to bring cabal-hell to cl?
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2014-07-02T18:22:11Z jasom: JuanDaugherty: I find cabal to play more nicely with my OS package manager than any of the other language-specific package managers
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2014-07-02T18:22:46Z JuanDaugherty: lisp want free
2014-07-02T18:23:09Z NewUser: Thanks for the help.  I will install quicklisp and mess around later today...
2014-07-02T18:23:25Z jasom: but with asdf respecting the XDG environment variables, it's fairly easy to have several asdf registries going on at once
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2014-07-02T18:24:35Z NewUser: Anyone doing real-timish things here?  I was messing around with Racket, simple sprite games etc, and the GC was really messing things up with 1 sec+ pauses...
2014-07-02T18:24:58Z H4ns: dto has written several games in cl
2014-07-02T18:25:06Z stassats: CL isn't really suited for real time things
2014-07-02T18:25:07Z H4ns: ask in #lispgames maybe
2014-07-02T18:25:15Z jasom: NewUser: I find that calling (gc) in the event-loop helps a lot on sbcl (which doesn't make sense from my understanding of the sbcl gc algorithm) #lispgames may know more
2014-07-02T18:25:33Z p_l: NewUser: usually the rule is to not produce garbage (so non-consing code, object caches, etc.), and having GC disabled in really timing-dependant parts
2014-07-02T18:25:42Z jasom: Time to implement a fixed-work gc for sbcl
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2014-07-02T18:26:11Z NewUser: Calling (gc) often sort of makes sense, by having many quick collections instead of major ones perhaps...
2014-07-02T18:26:15Z stassats: jasom: sure, who will do that?
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2014-07-02T18:27:36Z jasom: NewUser: you eventually run out of nursery room if you're actually allocating more though, avoiding allocation is the best bet (i.e. instantiate everythign at level load, and avoid allocations thereafter)
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2014-07-02T18:28:37Z NewUser: Are there temporaries generated by the compiler?  Or can you be certain that you are not creating memory objects?
2014-07-02T18:28:38Z jasom: stassats: is it already incremental and concurrent?  That should make it easier; I've been wanting something more challenging to work on...
2014-07-02T18:28:56Z stassats: of course it isn't
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2014-07-02T18:29:11Z stassats: it's not even precise on the most popular platforms (i.e. x86)
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2014-07-02T18:29:23Z jasom: NewUser: you have to get to know the compiler well; temporaries are okay, since they end up in the nursery and will be collected cheaply if you call (gc) in your loop
2014-07-02T18:29:32Z jasom: stassats: what do you mean by "precise"?
2014-07-02T18:29:39Z stassats: the usual thing
2014-07-02T18:29:52Z jasom: stassats: as in (gc :full t) won't collect all the garbage?
2014-07-02T18:30:00Z H4ns: jasom: it does not collect all garbage
2014-07-02T18:30:13Z H4ns: jasom: only the garbage that it can safely identify as such.
2014-07-02T18:31:23Z jasom: NewUser: the nursery gc run has a cost related to the amount of live-data in the nursery, so if you never need to do a full gc, then temporaries are essentially free; I tried marking things as dynamic-extent and found no measurable performance gain
2014-07-02T18:32:03Z NewUser: jasom - good to know.  I imagine most implementations now have generational GCs
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2014-07-02T18:32:30Z jasom: NewUser: well it's not just generational, it's a question of what algorithm they use to collect each generation too.
2014-07-02T18:32:47Z jasom: cheney's algorithm trades space for time
2014-07-02T18:34:31Z NewUser: Thanks again for your help.
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2014-07-02T18:34:38Z jasom: NewUser: (time) will tell you how many bytes were allocated while running, so you can measure it and (disassemble) and M-. (if you have sbcl source installed) can help you track down any unexpected allocations
2014-07-02T18:35:43Z NewUser: I'll look into gc's later.
2014-07-02T18:36:15Z jaimef: so if I wanted to make a rest service from scratch to host from postgres what would be the recommended packages?
2014-07-02T18:36:22Z NewUser: Thanks jasom.  Have to run...
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2014-07-02T18:36:36Z H4ns: jaimef: hunchentoot, yason, postmodern
2014-07-02T18:36:44Z jaimef: H4ns: thanks
2014-07-02T18:37:01Z jaimef hunts for a CL supported on OS/2
2014-07-02T18:37:08Z stassats: uh oh
2014-07-02T18:37:18Z H4ns: haha!
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2014-07-02T18:37:27Z jasom: clisp will probably work
2014-07-02T18:38:09Z jaimef: well customer is IBM Burlington, they have all these OS/2 boxes running critical app for chip dev
2014-07-02T18:38:20Z jaimef: lost the source to the app
2014-07-02T18:38:37Z jaimef: evented elisp maybe...
2014-07-02T18:38:43Z stassats: you want to make it less critical by using common lisp?
2014-07-02T18:38:54Z jaimef: oh it's that or REXX
2014-07-02T18:39:19Z jasom loves reading gc papers they tend to say things like "We assume that core space is at a premium"
2014-07-02T18:39:50Z jaimef: if that was not the case, would GC be as critical?
2014-07-02T18:40:08Z jasom: jaimef: just that they refer to memory as "core" dates the paper
2014-07-02T18:40:22Z stassats: why would core memory even have a GC?
2014-07-02T18:40:40Z stassats: i assumed that is magnetic-core
2014-07-02T18:41:10Z jasom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic-core_memory#Reading_and_writing
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2014-07-02T18:42:25Z jasom: PARC was running lisp on machines with core memory in the 70s
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2014-07-02T18:42:56Z jasom: Lisp and Snobol are mentioned as languages that use a GC
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2014-07-02T19:00:27Z jasom: The algorithm in Baker(78) seems relatively straightforward, but it does require the use of forwarding pointers.
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2014-07-02T19:04:47Z ggole: Bit heavy on the memory though
2014-07-02T19:05:21Z jasom: ggole: plenty of applications would trade a doubling of the heap size for bounded GC pauses; it's not like real-time GC is magical
2014-07-02T19:05:40Z jasom: also it's not like efficient non-real-time GCs don't benefit from oversized heaps
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2014-07-02T19:06:35Z drmeiste_ is now known as drmeister_
2014-07-02T19:06:59Z drmeister_: At long last - I have clasp self hosting on Linux using the Boehm GC.
2014-07-02T19:07:17Z ggole: Yeah, good old space/time tradeoff there
2014-07-02T19:08:38Z jasom: drmeister_: congrats!@
2014-07-02T19:09:05Z jasom: drmeister_: how many core-hours does the analysis phase take?
2014-07-02T19:09:11Z drmeister_: I'll release it at this stage.
2014-07-02T19:09:33Z drmeister_: It doesn't need the analysis at this point - that is for the MPS garbage collector - which I'm still working on.
2014-07-02T19:09:47Z didi: Dang, I've been unable to deal with these `unsigned word to integer coercion'. They are showing up all over the place. :^S
2014-07-02T19:10:18Z drmeister_: There's something about my use case that is causing MPS to spend a lot of time in the "mprotect" function on OS X - I haven't checked how it works on Linux yet.
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2014-07-02T19:14:15Z jasom: speaking of mprotect, does anybody know of work where an incremental copying collector uses the MMU to detect accesses to fromspace?  It seems like an obvious idea..
2014-07-02T19:15:17Z p_l: Azul?
2014-07-02T19:15:45Z jasom: hmm, I hope they didn't patent that
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2014-07-02T19:18:22Z JuanDaugherty: ur afraid of software patents?
2014-07-02T19:19:38Z JuanDaugherty: i think the only purpose they server is when two big time slavers have to duke it out
2014-07-02T19:20:21Z JuanDaugherty: *serve
2014-07-02T19:24:25Z JuanDaugherty: an i guess they put the kibosh on some petty/would-be one too
2014-07-02T19:24:33Z JuanDaugherty: *ones
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2014-07-02T19:25:40Z jasom just realized that with the 2^48 octet address space provided by x64, we've finally outgrown Multics that had 2^36 word address space
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2014-07-02T19:27:25Z jasom: approx 2^38 octets on multics
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2014-07-02T19:41:51Z jasom: Is there a reason that cheneygc isn't used on x86-64?
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2014-07-02T19:44:21Z jasom: it appears that the x86/x86-64 sbcl gc has "black-boxes" that it collects in a non-moving conservative manner?
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2014-07-02T19:56:41Z JuanDaugherty: it's an option
2014-07-02T19:56:47Z JuanDaugherty: -al build
2014-07-02T19:57:02Z JuanDaugherty: apparenlty it's a bugaboo for some people
2014-07-02T19:57:18Z JuanDaugherty: they don't wanna take the arch steps needed
2014-07-02T19:57:50Z JuanDaugherty: i.e. management of the world line, if you will
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2014-07-02T20:23:36Z stassats: jasom: because the generational collector is better than cheneygc
2014-07-02T20:23:55Z stassats: there would be no reason to use cheneygc when gengc is working
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2014-07-02T20:24:36Z stassats: of course there might be a corner case when it's better, but in general, it's worse
2014-07-02T20:25:06Z stassats: and x86 is conservative because it has too few registers
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2014-07-02T20:30:14Z jasom: stassats: x86-64 has one more register than arm
2014-07-02T20:30:31Z stassats: x86-64 inherited things from x86
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2014-07-02T20:31:10Z stassats: and arm is struggling with a precise gc and too few registers to spare
2014-07-02T20:31:40Z jasom: stassats: yeah I'm talking with pkhuong in #sbcl about that right now
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2014-07-02T20:33:17Z stassats: if it weren't for having to have 4 registers for two stacks, it might be ok
2014-07-02T20:33:41Z stassats: and the control stack pointer isn't even in a register on arm
2014-07-02T20:34:21Z stassats: a better scheme is really needed, like a dynamic partition of the stack and the register set
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2014-07-02T20:35:06Z stassats: (which ccl does)
2014-07-02T20:35:30Z stassats: and i'm off again
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2014-07-02T20:35:44Z jasom: a shared-stack (with some other way for the GC to distinguish between objects and non-objects) would be a big improvement alone, even without dynamic register set partitioning
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2014-07-02T21:14:52Z |3b|: didi: i think "unsigned word to integer coercion" usually means it had to box machine-word sized value, usually for things like returning from a function, or passing to other functions
2014-07-02T21:15:29Z |3b|: you can avoid some of that by inlining, or by passing things in pre-allocated typed arrays, if it is slowing things down
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2014-07-02T21:18:32Z didi: |3b|: That makes sense, thank you. I went a bit crazy and started adding these functions, one inside another, with `flet' and `labels'. I did try `(declare (inline foo))' but the compiler didn't seem to accept my suggestion.
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2014-07-02T21:27:05Z |3b|: didi: you need to declaim the function to be inline before defining it, so it knows to store enough info to do so
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2014-07-02T21:30:56Z didi: |3b|: Oh, OK.
2014-07-02T21:32:29Z |3b|: if you wan to be able to inline it sometimes but not by default, you can declaim it notinline after defining the function, then use declare in specific places where you want it inlined
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2014-07-02T21:34:24Z didi: I couldn't get rid of notes from a `finally (return x)' `loop', even after the pilling of functions. But that's OK. I was just trying to understand what was happening.
2014-07-02T21:34:39Z didi: |3b|: Understood.
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2014-07-02T21:43:57Z jasom: On the topic of lisp books, I just stumbled across "Loving Common Lisp" by Mark Watson.  Anyone read that?
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2014-07-02T21:52:26Z jasom: 2nd edition is free, but dated (ILISP, CLOCC)
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2014-07-02T21:54:35Z Xach: 3rd edition covers asdf-install?
2014-07-02T21:55:43Z jasom: Xach: quicklisp it looks like (I didn't buy it but code examples are on github and use quickload)
2014-07-02T21:56:24Z H4ns: the toc mentions quicklisp
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2014-07-02T21:58:11Z jasom: Ah, I didn't scroll down far enough to see the TOC was posted
2014-07-02T21:58:24Z Xach: edgy
2014-07-02T21:59:18Z jasom: One of the examples is "Complete REST Client Server Example Using JSON for Data Serialization"
2014-07-02T21:59:27Z jasom: which someone asked about a few hours ago in here
2014-07-02T22:01:26Z jasom: 3rd also switches from recommending clisp to sbcl for free implementations
2014-07-02T22:02:20Z jasom: and in-general the author seems to prefer do et. al. to loop
2014-07-02T22:03:25Z jasom: and princ/terpri to format
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2014-07-02T23:07:12Z pjb: jasom: notice that nowadays, even with tens of gigabyte of RAM, Apple saves battery time by compressing unused pages in core, instead of swapping them to disk.
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2014-07-03T00:05:33Z drmeiste_: Check this out!   GDB debugging my Common Lisp system.   I'm moving up the call stack.   Common Lisp source code frames interleaved with C++ frames.
2014-07-03T00:05:47Z drmeiste_: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/a1be4c2c2a959d336931
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2014-07-03T00:06:50Z drmeister_: The backtrace from within GDB:   https://gist.github.com/drmeister/443018530ab8a5730a19
2014-07-03T00:07:42Z drmeister_: Frames 8, 11, 14, 18, 21 etc are Common Lisp frames.   That's DWARF 4 baby!
2014-07-03T00:08:54Z drmeister_: I wrote the code to generate DWARF 4 a year ago - never was able to use it on OS X because LLDB with JITted code is broken.   GDB seems to work with it just fine.
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2014-07-03T00:13:01Z joe-w-bimedina: I have this macro for mem-aref https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/4aac30788e35e2142d0c  it works great except for the fact that I can't setf it it like you can with  mem-aref. Can someone show me how I can change this macro so it is setf-able, without removing the functionality
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2014-07-03T00:15:29Z drmeister_: I can set breakpoints in Common Lisp code from gdb - this is sweet.
2014-07-03T00:16:33Z joe-w-bimedina: congratulations
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2014-07-03T00:19:11Z Xach: dwarf 4 tress!
2014-07-03T00:19:32Z p_l: :)
2014-07-03T00:19:52Z p_l: Xach: there's not enough lisp code whining after its socks in the middle of GC for it
2014-07-03T00:21:46Z p_l: (for the uninitiated - Dwarf Fortress tries to heavily invest in AI... and game AI at this level of detail goes erratic easily)
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2014-07-03T00:25:48Z joe-w-bimedina: Is it possible to add a return-from statement in a defmacro,  I added a new idea I tried to the bottom of the gist I just posted,  that involved return-from but it gets a return from unknown block error
2014-07-03T00:25:59Z joe-w-bimedina: *at the bottom
2014-07-03T00:27:19Z Bike: Yeah, you can, but it looks like your return-from is in the expansion, not the expander.
2014-07-03T00:27:34Z Bike: this looks like another "why is this a macro and not a function" situation
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2014-07-03T00:27:52Z phadthai: you could create a block, if that's what you really want
2014-07-03T00:27:58Z Bike: it's not
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2014-07-03T00:28:17Z Bike: there's some major confusion about expansion time versus runtime in this gist
2014-07-03T00:28:21Z joe-w-bimedina: I have been really careful on that, and in this case the macro is ove 100 times faster
2014-07-03T00:28:40Z joe-w-bimedina: how can I make the ? macro setfable
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2014-07-03T00:38:07Z joe-w-bimedina: |Bike|: if my return-from was in the expansion, not the expander, would this macro be setfable
2014-07-03T00:39:39Z |3b|: why would you think it would be?
2014-07-03T00:40:12Z |3b|: clhs setf
2014-07-03T00:40:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_setf_.htm
2014-07-03T00:40:28Z |3b|: clhs 5.1.2
2014-07-03T00:40:28Z specbot: Kinds of Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_ab.htm
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2014-07-03T00:40:37Z |3b|: clhs 5.1.2.7
2014-07-03T00:40:38Z specbot: Macro Forms as Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_abg.htm
2014-07-03T00:41:46Z |3b|: clhs cond
2014-07-03T00:41:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_cond.htm
2014-07-03T00:42:05Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|: is that how I can make this setfable,  is it about the place in the macro
2014-07-03T00:42:59Z |3b|: clhs defsetf
2014-07-03T00:42:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defset.htm
2014-07-03T00:43:05Z |3b|: clhs define-setf-expander
2014-07-03T00:43:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_3.htm
2014-07-03T00:44:16Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: return an expansion that is setf-able and it's setfable, otherwise you need to do something more specific to setf than just define a macro
2014-07-03T00:45:48Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|:if I just return only the (mem-aref (c-pointer ,ptr) ,type  ,index)) from the macro it is setfable but the cond changes that,  I don't want to have to use dsetf explicitly, just setf so it is more intuitive
2014-07-03T00:46:54Z |3b|: clhs dsetf
2014-07-03T00:46:54Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for dsetf.
2014-07-03T00:47:17Z |3b| couldn't find anything for dsetf either.
2014-07-03T00:48:08Z joe-w-bimedina: was that a question or did you not find clues at that clhs link you provided
2014-07-03T00:48:21Z |3b|: i have no idea what you mean by "dsetf"
2014-07-03T00:48:40Z |3b|: if you mean defsetf, then you have no idea what you mean either, and should go read all those links
2014-07-03T00:48:41Z joe-w-bimedina: oops, defsetf,  I wrote it wrong
2014-07-03T00:49:02Z joe-w-bimedina: ok will do?
2014-07-03T00:49:12Z joe-w-bimedina: ok will do
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2014-07-03T01:02:21Z zRecursive: clhs defsetf
2014-07-03T01:02:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defset.htm
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2014-07-03T01:25:48Z joe-w-bimedina: I have 2 foreign-types defined at this gist https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/3721d8970d8f08cf5e51  the one on the bottom  has  (:actual-type :pointer) and it works,  the one on the top has (:actual-type (:pointer (:struct key-point))) and it doesn't.  Since :pointer and (:pointer (:struct key-point)) are interchangeable as return values of a defcfun why am i getting an "unknown cffi type (:pointer (:struct key-point))" when trying to use it
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2014-07-03T01:29:13Z |3b|: might help if they types had different names
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2014-07-03T01:30:01Z joe-w-bimedina: that makes sense, thanks
2014-07-03T01:30:08Z |3b|: though i don't get an error from either
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2014-07-03T01:33:04Z joe-w-bimedina: I think I am getting close to figuring out the issue you helped me work on before,  I edited the gist, again here: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/3721d8970d8f08cf5e51 , and though I changes the name of the struct I am still getting that error on my defcfun
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2014-07-03T01:50:00Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|: not sure if you saw my last post or got busy
2014-07-03T01:52:26Z |3b| saw it but has no thoughts about it
2014-07-03T01:52:54Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks,  np:)
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2014-07-03T02:22:46Z Denommus: Weird, pyon didn't connect today
2014-07-03T02:22:55Z Denommus: Wait, wrong channel
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2014-07-03T02:29:06Z drmeiste_: Does anyone distribute software as source code?   How do you set up the build system?
2014-07-03T02:29:57Z Bike: um. is this lisp source?
2014-07-03T02:30:10Z drmeiste_: I have a build system that is a combination of makefiles and boost-build jam files.
2014-07-03T02:30:19Z drmeiste_: Bike: It's my Common Lisp system.
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2014-07-03T02:30:22Z Bike: i don't understand where your question could be coming from, i know you use software distributed as source...
2014-07-03T02:31:13Z drmeiste_: I have dependent libraries, the main source tree for the application and the Common Lisp source code that needs to be compiled.
2014-07-03T02:32:21Z Bike: usually you just assume whoever's getting your source already has the appropriate build tools, like the gnu toolchain, or maven for a java system, that sorta thing. no idea how common boost-build is.
2014-07-03T02:32:22Z drmeiste_: I'm thinking about 'configure --prefix=dest ; make ; make install'    But I don't really need autoconf because portability is handled by each dependent library and boost build.
2014-07-03T02:32:40Z Bike: ok i don't think i'm understanding what you want, sorry about that
2014-07-03T02:32:50Z drmeiste_: I'll include boost build.
2014-07-03T02:33:21Z didi`: drmeiste_: Are you distributing the dependencies too?
2014-07-03T02:33:29Z drmeiste_: I haven't provided any details.
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2014-07-03T02:33:54Z drmeiste_: I was planning to distribute the dependent libraries - I don't know the legality of that.   They are all available online.
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2014-07-03T02:34:16Z drmeiste_: I am going to distribute from github.
2014-07-03T02:34:31Z didi`: ?
2014-07-03T02:34:44Z didi`: Your distribution is a link to a github repository?
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2014-07-03T02:35:37Z drmeiste_: I have a top level directory and an "externals" directory that contains "boehm-7.2", "boost", "llvm", "clang", "ecl", "expat", "gmp", "openmpi", "readline" and "zlib"  - those are my dependent libraries.
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2014-07-03T02:35:56Z drmeiste_: I have a makefile in "externals" that configures and makes all of them.
2014-07-03T02:36:23Z Bike: well, the legality depends on their licenses, of course
2014-07-03T02:36:26Z drmeiste_: Then I have a "src" directory that contains my source code - that is built with boost-build.
2014-07-03T02:36:28Z didi`: Ah. Well, I highly dislike doing it this way.
2014-07-03T02:36:43Z Bike: distributing all your dependencies with your actual code is not something i like. i think it's a bit common on windows and abhorred on nix
2014-07-03T02:37:04Z Bike: i'm presently unable to use a particular program because it wants to use its own outdated bundled libraries...
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2014-07-03T02:37:40Z drmeiste_: I am thinking about distributing dependent libraries because LLVM/Clang changes quickly.  Every time I get a new revision of LLVM I have to make changes to my code.
2014-07-03T02:37:48Z Bike: normally you'd have something in your install instructions saying you need so and so libraries, and have autotools check for them, and fail if they're not installed
2014-07-03T02:38:26Z Bike: well, that might be a special case. are you dependent on undocumented internals or something? maybe consider doing something special for llvm and clang but not for the others.
2014-07-03T02:39:00Z drmeiste_: Bike: In LLVM I'm dependent on new features that aren't in the most recent release.
2014-07-03T02:39:15Z Bike: newer-than-release features, you mean?
2014-07-03T02:39:26Z zRecursive: drmeiste_: What do you do if users already have LLVM/CLang installed ?
2014-07-03T02:39:40Z drmeiste_: It isn't going to be up to date.
2014-07-03T02:39:58Z Bike: Hey, it might be. Some people use bleeding edge software and you don't know.
2014-07-03T02:40:07Z Bike: if those features are sticking around, i'd just put a note in the install that they need a post-release version.
2014-07-03T02:40:15Z drmeiste_: On OS X we have LLVM/Clang installed.  I use it to bootstrap a more recent version.
2014-07-03T02:40:30Z Bike: it's a bit annoying for users, but your software is new anyway so it's not too unexpected
2014-07-03T02:41:10Z drmeiste_: For me llvm/clang are a special case - I am tied to them very intimately.  I use the LLVM library to generate code.
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2014-07-03T02:41:43Z zRecursive: Depending on new features not in document is not a good way
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2014-07-03T02:42:27Z drmeiste_: zRecursive: They are in document - they aren't in 3.4.1 (the latest release).
2014-07-03T02:42:41Z Bike: dependencies are a problem there are dozens of solutions for, in the wild; i'd say you shouldn't second-guess users and have them figure out the best way for their case
2014-07-03T02:42:50Z Bike: instead
2014-07-03T02:42:51Z zRecursive: drmeiste_: sorry
2014-07-03T02:43:19Z Bike: or you could just wait for the next release of course (only half joking)
2014-07-03T02:43:36Z drmeiste_: It won't be too long now for the next release of llvm/clang.
2014-07-03T02:45:12Z zRecursive: drmeiste_: Can your CL build stumpwm and maxima now ?
2014-07-03T02:45:42Z Bike: drmeiste_: have you administrated linux systems much? as an example, in my distro there are often multiple distro-level packages for the same code - one that follows the releases, and one that just downloads and builds from git itself, say, and users can choose which to use. people usually use the latter for specialized reasons but they do use it, so they might have a "-git" package installed already.
2014-07-03T02:45:53Z Bike: https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/llvmlinux-git/ Hey, whaddya know.
2014-07-03T02:46:02Z Bike: oh no that's different, sorry.
2014-07-03T02:46:26Z Bike: https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/llvm-svn/ There we go.
2014-07-03T02:46:39Z Bike: So somebody might have this package, and then if you bundled your own copy that would just be annoying for them.
2014-07-03T02:46:49Z drmeiste_: zRecursive: I don't think they can yet.   I haven't tried.
2014-07-03T02:46:55Z drmeiste_: Bike: I see your point.
2014-07-03T02:47:02Z Bike: And if they'd been using the regular release llvms, they'd (hopefully) know the way to go would be to uninstall their llvm and install llvm-svn, and that would fix it.
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2014-07-03T02:47:32Z drmeiste_: I do have this makefile though that builds all of these dependent packages - there's a lot of details...
2014-07-03T02:47:53Z Bike: Is your build process different from the libraries'? Like do you end up with a different result?
2014-07-03T02:48:12Z drmeiste_: llvm needs to be compiled with RTTI.  Everything needs to be compiled -std=c++11.   Everything needs to generate static libraries - no dynamic libraries.
2014-07-03T02:48:18Z Bike: (I may be thinking about this because today at work I had to switch from a -git sort of release to a stable one since the -git one broke the entire graphics stack. dependencies suck.)
2014-07-03T02:48:30Z Bike: oooookay that might be a bit different.
2014-07-03T02:48:40Z Bike: The heck do you need static libraries for, I gotta ask.\
2014-07-03T02:49:18Z drmeiste_: Let's see - I don't want to deal with LD_LIBRARY_PATH.
2014-07-03T02:49:35Z Bike: I mean, if you /really/ need all static libraries, then honestly yeah you should probably distribute them yourself. But that's a frankly terrible thing to need.
2014-07-03T02:50:27Z Bike: you're basically telling users "okay, so maybe you have a copy of this already, but i need you to build and use a new distinct copy taking up space, just for my software". so you'd better have a good reason, yeah?
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2014-07-03T02:51:17Z drmeiste_: I'm not sure if I _need_ them on every system or only the Linux system that I got everything to work on (It's the front end machine for a High Performance Cluster).  HPC code needs to be statically linked.
2014-07-03T02:52:17Z Bike: just to make sure i'm on the same page here, HPC means this specific system produced by "HPCC Systems", is that right?
2014-07-03T02:52:28Z Bike: like it's not a general term for supercomputers.
2014-07-03T02:53:09Z drmeiste_: No, it's just a big cluster.
2014-07-03T02:54:20Z Bike: https://sites.google.com/a/case.edu/hpc-upgraded-cluster/home/important-notes-for-new-users/compiling--linking looking around google, this doesn't say anything about requiring static linking and has instructions for dynamic.
2014-07-03T02:54:32Z Bike: the LD_LIBRARY_PATH stuff is just because the binaries aren't properly installed.
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2014-07-03T02:57:23Z drmeiste_: That page says "the dynamic libraries need to be carried along with the program" - on the systems I've worked on even that was not an - applications that ran on the cluster needed to be linked static.
2014-07-03T02:57:46Z drmeiste_: "even that was not an option"
2014-07-03T02:59:00Z drmeiste_: Here's the configuration my sysadmin gave me for compiling a more up to date gcc on the linux system I'm on: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/d3c164c14b19adf3e8e3
2014-07-03T02:59:25Z Bike: The page is kind of confused. I mean, it finds libc.so no problem and it's not "carried along".
2014-07-03T02:59:36Z drmeiste_: Note: "--disable-shared"
2014-07-03T02:59:42Z drmeiste_: For gcc.
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2014-07-03T03:00:04Z drmeiste_: But your point is a good one - this is not the rest of the world.
2014-07-03T03:00:13Z drmeiste_: The rest of the world uses dynamic libraries.
2014-07-03T03:01:08Z Bike: yeah, i think that's what i'm thinking. somebody on a specialized setup like this is going to know what they have to do, so you don't need to give them the dependent source.
2014-07-03T03:01:17Z drmeiste_: So here's the other thing.   To interface boost-build with external libraries you need to write a jam file that associates boost build targets with physical libraries on the disk.
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2014-07-03T03:04:01Z loke: since more than a decade, Solaris hasn't veen supported static links anymore
2014-07-03T03:04:09Z loke: statically linked programs, that is
2014-07-03T03:04:13Z drmeiste_: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/db950579e4cfb26d8321
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2014-07-03T03:05:17Z drmeiste_: Stuff like this.   APPRES-EXTERNALS-COMMON-LIB is an environment variable.   I suppose I could set these in a makefile from within which I invoke boost build.
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2014-07-03T03:06:00Z Bike: i guess that sounds like something to ask the boost people about.
2014-07-03T03:06:40Z Bike: just, please, don't 'release' your software in a way so that it'll work on your system and nothing else. i have a book on neural simulation from like the 80s that has a bunch of source code written in some fortran dialect that existed for about a year at this one school. it's useless
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2014-07-03T03:09:08Z drmeiste_: I've got this build system that works for me - that I've been tinkering with for years.  It lets me move the entire system from one computer to another and compile it without dealing with installing the half dozen dependent libraries on every system in preparation. (sigh)
2014-07-03T03:09:32Z Bike: right, well, the rest of us don't :p
2014-07-03T03:09:37Z drmeiste_: git clone XXXXX clasp - make externals; make;
2014-07-03T03:09:52Z Bike: this is why release and the actual programming are sometimes handled by different teams, heh
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2014-07-03T03:10:52Z drmeiste_ sighs
2014-07-03T03:11:01Z drmeiste_ is now known as drmeister_
2014-07-03T03:11:14Z drmeister_: I've got to figure out why I lost my handle.
2014-07-03T03:11:25Z Bike: like, my normally-installed distro gcc, has just as long a list of custom options as yours. those were put in by the distro people, not the gcc people, so
2014-07-03T03:11:27Z drmeister_: how to get it back.
2014-07-03T03:12:46Z nightfly: The other you is still connected and in this channel
2014-07-03T03:13:47Z Bike: yeah, can't have two peeps with the same nick.
2014-07-03T03:14:23Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2014-07-03T03:14:45Z drmeister_: Can I kick them out?
2014-07-03T03:15:15Z Bike: yes. /msg nickserv ghost drmeister
2014-07-03T03:15:28Z drmeister quit (Disconnected by services)
2014-07-03T03:15:31Z Bike: or, if you're not logged in, /msg nickserv ghost drmeister yourpasswordhere
2014-07-03T03:15:35Z drmeister_ is now known as drmeister
2014-07-03T03:15:38Z Bike: That'll disconnect them.
2014-07-03T03:15:53Z Bike: so i mean, if you needed the other you logged in, nope gone
2014-07-03T03:16:08Z drmeister: Can I set up a password with drmeister?
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2014-07-03T03:17:22Z Bike: you already have one set up
2014-07-03T03:17:39Z nightfly: Your other session is from 155.247.96.196 and apparently in the Computer/Math Building, Room 870
2014-07-03T03:17:39Z Bike: maybe you should just do /msg nickserv help and go from there.
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2014-07-03T03:28:47Z drmeister: I suppose I could use autoconf to define the locations of the dependent libraries in environment variables within the makefile and use them to communicate library locations to boost build.
2014-07-03T03:29:16Z drmeister: I've never developed anything with autoconf.
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2014-07-03T03:30:32Z Bike: well ideally you'd just use dynamic libraries the user already has
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2014-07-03T03:31:36Z drmeister: But it would be like configuring gcc.     It would be like I had to do to build gcc:  https://gist.github.com/drmeister/7d28017d112c1fe45119
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2014-07-03T03:32:16Z drmeister: configure --prefix=wwww --with-mpfr=xxxxx --with-gmp=yyyy --with-mpc=zzzz ...;
2014-07-03T03:32:37Z Bike: You need custom dynamic binaries too?
2014-07-03T03:32:54Z drmeister: Is that what those are for?
2014-07-03T03:33:09Z Bike: yes. normally configure just finds them in some standard location.
2014-07-03T03:33:18Z drmeister: I thought they were to define -Lpath-to-lib    in the link command.
2014-07-03T03:33:45Z Bike: oh, the linker uses standard locations too. /usr/lib or something often, that kind of thing
2014-07-03T03:34:58Z drmeister: What is boost build going to do?    I'm used to specifying things like:   lib gmp : : <search>$(APPRES-EXTERNALS-COMMON-LIB) <name>gmp ;
2014-07-03T03:35:19Z drmeister: Do I leave off the <search>xxxx option?   I know you don't do boost-build.
2014-07-03T03:35:37Z drmeister: If someone installs gmp - where do they put it?
2014-07-03T03:36:02Z drmeister: The dirs /usr/local/{include,lib} ?
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2014-07-03T03:36:47Z Bike: depends on the distro, but usually /usr/lib or something like that. let me see wher emine is.
2014-07-03T03:36:57Z drmeister: I've been installing software from source for 30 years.   Back in the day everything got dumped in /usr/local/xxxx
2014-07-03T03:37:05Z drmeister: I hated that.   It's a mess.
2014-07-03T03:37:32Z drmeister: The dir /usr/lib needs sudo access to install.
2014-07-03T03:37:40Z Bike: Right. It's for the whole system.
2014-07-03T03:38:10Z Bike: my libgmp.so is indeed in /usr/lib
2014-07-03T03:38:10Z zRecursive: My freebsd :  ls /usr/local/lib/*gmp* => /usr/local/lib/libgmp.a  /usr/local/lib/libgmp.so ...
2014-07-03T03:38:47Z Bike: see because, in a sane world, you let the user install stuff themselves, and they'll have their build tools set up to look in those places, so you don't need to worry about where it is at all.
2014-07-03T03:38:58Z Bike: but maybe the boost people know more specifically how they usually do things.
2014-07-03T03:39:52Z drmeister: Boost installs in the same places.   I might be using it incorrectly.   Boost build is a complicated build system - it is powerful though.
2014-07-03T03:40:11Z zRecursive i always think *bsd is much tidy than linux :)
2014-07-03T03:40:41Z Bike: I mean, if I needed to build something with gmp I could just do gcc bla bla bla -lgmp or whatever, and it'd work.
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2014-07-03T03:40:53Z zRecursive: sure
2014-07-03T03:41:15Z Bike: having to specify where every binary is every time would suck, and i don't think anybody does that.
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2014-07-03T03:42:23Z drmeister: Bike: You are talking sense - I'll do what you suggest.   In my heart I know it's the correct way.    However, I've always railed against dependent libraries - I've wasted a lot of time trying to get dependent libraries set up properly so that other source code can find them.
2014-07-03T03:43:08Z Bike: well, it means more work now, but the advantage is a build that doesn't require you constantly fretting about where everything is, long-term, hopefully
2014-07-03T03:43:13Z drmeister: It's why I ditched python - the crap you go through with python dependent libraries and their dependent libraries - and the versions - Oh god it's all coming back to me!
2014-07-03T03:43:34Z drmeister curls up in a fetal position - twitching.
2014-07-03T03:44:15Z drmeister: Be back soon - gotta look for our kitty.
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2014-07-03T03:55:23Z drmeister: I ordered three "Tile"s earlier this year to put one on my cat's collar to help us find her when she get's lost.   It's supposed to have shipped last month.  She's gotten lost three times now.  Stupid cat.
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2014-07-03T03:56:29Z drmeister: The first time she treed herself, the second time she crawled through a hole in the neighbors screen and got stuck in their basement.  We just had a thunderstorm and she's out there somewhere in the wet and the dark.
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2014-07-03T03:57:46Z drmeister: At least it's warm out - if she's up a tree she's going to have to spend the night up there.
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2014-07-03T03:58:55Z drmeister: Anyway.   I'll see if I can set it up without shipping libraries on a virtual box linux where I can install those libraries in standard locations.
2014-07-03T03:59:30Z drmeister: It's less of a hassle for me.
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2014-07-03T04:01:19Z drmeister: LLVM is a bit of a problem - I use a very recent build - they started using std::unique_ptr<xxx> all over the place recently.
2014-07-03T04:02:11Z drmeister: There's been a lot of movement in the C++ world recently with C++11 coming into wider use.
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2014-07-03T05:01:42Z joe-w-bimedina: not sure if anyone else wants to take a crack at this but I made a gist https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/912f104d6f4b65f4586a where I defined my cffi define-foreign-type  with the actual-type being a (:pointer (:struct key-point-1)). It compiles ok but when I compile my defcfun that uses the type I get an "unknown cffi type (:pointer (:struct key-point-1))" error, does anyone know why this is?
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2014-07-03T08:44:10Z hitecnologys: Anyone has working ebuild for SBCL 1.2.1?
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2014-07-03T08:46:46Z hitecnologys: Mine doesn't seem to work for unknown reasons.
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2014-07-03T08:56:15Z hitecnologys: Never mind, it wasn't ebuild.
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2014-07-03T10:53:16Z hitecnologys: Is there a known way to make SWANK use bordeaux-threads instead of sb-threads?
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2014-07-03T10:55:20Z stassats: SMOP
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2014-07-03T10:57:35Z hitecnologys: Bleh. I'm too lazy to do that.
2014-07-03T10:57:48Z stassats: then don't
2014-07-03T10:58:05Z stassats: it's quite pointless
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2014-07-03T10:58:24Z Shinmera: BT just calls sb-thread functions on sbcl in the back anyway, so what's the point?
2014-07-03T10:58:36Z hitecnologys: It's just that STMX can't work in threads where bt:*default-special-bindings* wasn't applied.
2014-07-03T10:59:18Z hitecnologys: So I can't call anything that uses STMX in SLIME's REPL.
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2014-07-03T10:59:41Z hitecnologys: I guess you're right, I don't need full BT for that.
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2014-07-03T11:00:57Z hitecnologys: My current workaround is special macros that runs code in separate thread and then prints all values returned by it but I'd like to get rid of it.
2014-07-03T11:01:30Z Shinmera: Can't you just setf those special variables manually before calling stmx or how exactly does this work?
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2014-07-03T11:01:53Z hitecnologys: I'm not sure.
2014-07-03T11:02:14Z Shinmera: Well then try it
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2014-07-03T11:09:44Z hitecnologys: Oh, I'm an idiot. Yes, setting them manually does seem to work. Thank you for help.
2014-07-03T11:09:53Z Shinmera: You could also do something like http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view?id=55
2014-07-03T11:12:09Z hitecnologys: Seems to work too. Thanks again.
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2014-07-03T11:21:54Z stassats: rather,(progv (mapcar #'car bt:*default-special-bindings*) (mapcar #'cdr bt:*default-special-bindings*))
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2014-07-03T11:35:30Z hitecnologys: cl-issac seems to be broken on current SBCL. I can't even call ISAAC:INIT-NULL-SEED. It says something about number being out of '(unsigned-byte 8) range.
2014-07-03T11:36:01Z stassats: test case?
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2014-07-03T11:36:57Z hitecnologys: I'm using code from official documentation: (ql:quickload "cl-isaac") (defvar my-isaac-ctx (isaac:init-kernel-seed)) <ERROR>
2014-07-03T11:37:18Z hitecnologys: SBCL was freshly build from sources with --fancy.
2014-07-03T11:37:25Z stassats: well, a test case which doesn't include cl-isaac
2014-07-03T11:38:02Z hitecnologys: I'm not sure I follow. You mean like (typep 255 '(unsigned-byte 8))?
2014-07-03T11:38:34Z stassats: like whatever makes it fail
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2014-07-03T11:41:01Z hitecnologys: Just calling INIT-KERNEL-SEED makes it fail. I can't find anything else with similar problem. Ironclad works fine.
2014-07-03T11:41:20Z hitecnologys: Backtrace says that it fails on (CL-ISAAC:GENERATE-NEXT-ISAAC64-BLOCK #<unavailable argument>).
2014-07-03T11:41:31Z stassats: well, build a test case from that
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2014-07-03T11:48:22Z hitecnologys: It must be mistake in cl-isaac code, I can't possibly imagine how AREF here would work: https://github.com/thephoeron/cl-isaac/blob/master/isaac-64.lisp#L25
2014-07-03T11:48:46Z hitecnologys: I goes up to 255 so: (logand (+ 255 128) #xFFFF) => 383.
2014-07-03T11:48:57Z hitecnologys: s/I/'i'/
2014-07-03T11:49:30Z stassats: clip (safety 0)
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2014-07-03T11:50:45Z hitecnologys: So, it works like it would work in C, right?
2014-07-03T11:51:05Z stassats: i don't know about C
2014-07-03T11:51:24Z hitecnologys: It accesses what goes after the array itself?
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2014-07-03T11:51:55Z stassats: surely that doesn't happen in the c version
2014-07-03T11:53:18Z stassats: it's mm[(i+128)%256]
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2014-07-03T11:53:42Z stassats: somebody can't into hex
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2014-07-03T11:56:29Z stassats: and it was correct https://github.com/thephoeron/cl-isaac/commit/249ac545a39a7f448c9e50995bd1bd58d18e8190
2014-07-03T11:57:30Z stassats: and i wouldn't trust such code
2014-07-03T11:57:46Z hitecnologys: Fuh, I was wondering if you meant me by "someone".
2014-07-03T11:57:53Z hitecnologys: I wouldn't either.
2014-07-03T11:58:23Z stassats: maybe it's right and the array size wasn't updated to 65536
2014-07-03T11:59:09Z hitecnologys: Maybe. But the code is broken anyway.
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2014-07-03T12:00:45Z hitecnologys: Even changing size of array doesn't make isnt-unsigned-byte-8-error go away. It must be something else then.
2014-07-03T12:01:04Z stassats: well, did you try changing the mask back to #xFF?
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2014-07-03T12:01:31Z hitecnologys: Nope, let's try it.
2014-07-03T12:02:19Z hitecnologys: Woah.
2014-07-03T12:02:39Z hitecnologys: The value 21142669738922332913664 is not of type (UNSIGNED-BYTE 64).
2014-07-03T12:03:01Z hitecnologys: Sounds closer.
2014-07-03T12:03:42Z stassats: that's from  (ash (isaac64-ctx-a ctx) ...)
2014-07-03T12:03:55Z hitecnologys: Aha.
2014-07-03T12:04:32Z stassats: it needs (mask-field (byte 64 0) ...) around it
2014-07-03T12:05:08Z stassats: i guess nobody tried to run this code
2014-07-03T12:05:12Z hitecnologys: Yes.
2014-07-03T12:05:15Z hitecnologys: Now it works.
2014-07-03T12:05:26Z stassats: correctly?
2014-07-03T12:05:32Z hitecnologys: Seems to.
2014-07-03T12:05:42Z hitecnologys: Give me a few minutes, I'll run some more tests
2014-07-03T12:06:39Z stassats: actually, (safety 0) coupled with (unsigned-byte 64) on sbcl made it as if it were masked
2014-07-03T12:06:48Z stassats: which, naturally, would break on non-sbcl
2014-07-03T12:07:49Z hitecnologys: Maybe. I set safety to 3 before running it.
2014-07-03T12:08:16Z stassats: not maybe, that's what would happen when you lie to the compiler
2014-07-03T12:08:31Z hitecnologys: Nope, I didn't disable it.
2014-07-03T12:09:51Z stassats: pff, this pvs thing has the most arcane build procedure
2014-07-03T12:10:25Z stassats: to hell with it
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2014-07-03T12:13:11Z hitecnologys: It appears to work fine but it runs out of random once in a while.
2014-07-03T12:13:29Z hitecnologys: I'm not familiar with algorithm, is it normal?
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2014-07-03T12:31:05Z Guthur`: I would like to shadow a global function in a way similar to flet, except that i would like the shadowing function to be a function object
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2014-07-03T12:35:42Z Xach: Guthur`: you have to wrap it with flet, then. or write a macro to do that.
2014-07-03T12:35:45Z Shinmera: (flet ((foo (&rest vars) (apply obj vars))) ..) ?
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2014-07-03T12:47:52Z Guthur`: Shinmera: that will do the job, cheers
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2014-07-03T14:48:56Z ahungry: hey all, does the cl-unification package do anything like prolog facts? I see it can unify to match two sides, I may be missing in their doc, but I dont see how you can declare a fact and then get all possible unifications based on said fact?
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2014-07-03T15:30:27Z shka: grretings lispers!
2014-07-03T15:30:46Z shka: i'm in search of caveman2 applications examples
2014-07-03T15:30:54Z eudoxia: shka: quickdocs
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2014-07-03T15:31:19Z shka: eudoxia: is this actually written with caveman2?
2014-07-03T15:31:36Z eudoxia: >:depends-on (:clack :caveman2
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2014-07-03T15:32:00Z shka: eudoxia: thank you for aiding! :)
2014-07-03T15:32:18Z eudoxia: np c:
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2014-07-03T15:33:59Z shka: eudoxia: well, p_l stated that avaible examples are written in japanese, so that's something :D
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2014-07-03T15:35:14Z p_l: those were the ones I could be sure of ;)
2014-07-03T15:35:28Z shka: hehe
2014-07-03T15:35:31Z shka: anyway
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2014-07-03T15:35:35Z shka: who is Fukamachi?
2014-07-03T15:35:43Z shka: he seems to be very serious lisp hacker
2014-07-03T15:36:15Z p_l: shka: http://8arrow.org/
2014-07-03T15:36:53Z shka: p_l: i have seen that page
2014-07-03T15:38:06Z p_l: hmm. I'm impressed with his blog theme o_O
2014-07-03T15:38:44Z shka: p_l: japs have a good taste in general
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2014-07-03T15:39:02Z eudoxia: he built a good part of common lisp's web and db ecosystem
2014-07-03T15:39:09Z eudoxia: clack, caveman, ningle, cl-dbi, sxql
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2014-07-03T15:39:49Z p_l: shka: language barrier and not only when it comes to finding about interesting projects from both Japan, China and other countries in that area annoys me, though
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2014-07-03T15:40:57Z shka: p_l: you speak polish, you can learn japanese as well
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2014-07-03T15:41:21Z p_l: shka: I actually speak a little bit of japanese, but I'm way out of practice and my kanji knowledge is near nonexistant
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2014-07-03T15:41:50Z p_l: got a growing backlog of books in japanese on my to-read list :|
2014-07-03T15:41:55Z shka: anyway
2014-07-03T15:42:10Z shka: fukamachi seems to be fucking awesome guy
2014-07-03T15:42:39Z shka: and a real lisp enthusiast
2014-07-03T15:42:58Z eudoxia: i wonder why he hasn't been doing much lately
2014-07-03T15:43:18Z Xach: Maybe he got hired to write lisp all day for pay and relaxes after work by not writing lisp
2014-07-03T15:43:27Z Xach coughs
2014-07-03T15:43:31Z p_l suggests the most simple explanation that he might just be busy with paid work, whatever it is :P
2014-07-03T15:43:36Z p_l: heh
2014-07-03T15:43:43Z eudoxia: living the dream
2014-07-03T15:43:47Z bobbysmith007: Xach: its a sweet gig if you can get it
2014-07-03T15:45:41Z eudoxia: i did hear Mathematical Systems used Lisp, Scheme and OCaml for everything
2014-07-03T15:45:59Z eudoxia: https://github.com/mathematical-systems
2014-07-03T15:46:05Z Xach: they present at every ILC but the language barrier is real
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2014-07-03T15:46:28Z p_l: I really need to step up my efforts with learning japanese
2014-07-03T15:46:54Z shka: maybe we can send mail to mr fukamachi?
2014-07-03T15:47:02Z shka: say that we are his fans
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2014-07-03T15:47:49Z eudoxia: we should write a thank you card and mail it across the world so all the lispers can sign it
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2014-07-03T15:49:04Z p_l: Xach would need one first, IMO :P
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2014-07-03T15:49:39Z p_l wonders what LW plans for in the future for their ARM runtime
2014-07-03T15:50:31Z Xach: I used to send a postcard to anyone who donated to quicklisp. I should start doing that again.
2014-07-03T15:50:44Z Xach sent 40 or 50 
2014-07-03T15:51:01Z Xach: I have plenty of Quicklisp-themed postcards left
2014-07-03T15:51:03Z antoszka: F
2014-07-03T15:51:06Z antoszka: oops
2014-07-03T15:51:08Z antoszka: wrong window
2014-07-03T15:51:24Z eudoxia: Xach: how are they "Quicklisp-themed"?
2014-07-03T15:51:38Z shka: Xach: so you, are the person behind quicklisp?
2014-07-03T15:51:48Z shka: outstanding good work
2014-07-03T15:51:54Z Xach: eudoxia: They have a quicklisp logo and note on the front
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2014-07-03T15:52:02Z shka: you made our life a lot easier
2014-07-03T15:52:19Z Xach: Always glad to hear it
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2014-07-03T16:35:19Z shka: hmmm
2014-07-03T16:35:31Z shka: as it seems quickdocs really heavily on clack
2014-07-03T16:36:03Z shka: i thought that caveman would be any abstraction layer for clack
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2014-07-03T16:42:49Z jasom: One day I hope to be paid to write software... I just am not in a place in life where I can move right now.
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2014-07-03T16:46:48Z Xach: spinal injury?
2014-07-03T16:46:56Z jasom: :P
2014-07-03T16:47:30Z jasom: s/can/convenient to/ s/move/change my city of residence/
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2014-07-03T17:09:36Z theos: mental block
2014-07-03T17:10:48Z jasom: theos: 4 kids, one of whom isn't allowed to leave the county
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2014-07-03T17:15:16Z jasom: though kvetching about this is way OT for here
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2014-07-03T17:36:35Z drmeister: Is there a way to have lisp print everything in lower-case that it normally prints in upper-case?
2014-07-03T17:37:02Z drmeister: Upper-case is a bit shouty and lower-case is more easily read by human beings.
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2014-07-03T17:37:27Z drmeister: Would it be conformant?
2014-07-03T17:37:31Z Bicyclidine: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/v_pr_cas.htm
2014-07-03T17:37:33Z eudoxia: print-case
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2014-07-03T17:37:43Z eudoxia: (setf *print-case* :downcase)
2014-07-03T17:38:31Z drmeister: If I set *print-case* to :downcase at startup, is that conformant?
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2014-07-03T17:38:56Z H4ns: non-standard global *print-case* is known to cause problems with programs that expecting the default *print-case*
2014-07-03T17:39:08Z eudoxia: the spec says the initial value is :upcase
2014-07-03T17:39:08Z drmeister: It says initial-value is :upcase.
2014-07-03T17:39:12Z H4ns: it will be conformant to set it, but i'd expect trouble.
2014-07-03T17:39:26Z H4ns: "initial value" does not mean that it cannot be set.
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2014-07-03T17:39:39Z Bicyclidine: H4ns: what kind of problem? i don't think drmeister is outputting anything READable
2014-07-03T17:40:07Z H4ns: Bicyclidine: problems with programs that print symbols to then use the strings for something
2014-07-03T17:40:22Z H4ns: Bicyclidine: i'm not saying that it would be clever to do it.  just that i've seen it happen.
2014-07-03T17:40:35Z pjb: drmeister: yes, the implementation must set it to :upcase initially.
2014-07-03T17:40:39Z Bicyclidine: well yeah i'm just wondering whether it's anything drmeister is using, see
2014-07-03T17:40:46Z pjb: The user may set it to :downcase in his rc file (which is what I do).
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2014-07-03T17:41:37Z pjb: Libraries and programs must not expect it to be :upcase!  Then should bind it explicitely to what then need.
2014-07-03T17:41:46Z H4ns gives it a try just for the sake of seeing things brake.
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2014-07-03T17:42:00Z H4ns: pjb: in an ideal world, all programs would be perfect.
2014-07-03T17:42:06Z pjb: H4ns: the only bug I had to report was with alexandria.
2014-07-03T17:42:32Z H4ns: ieh, this looks ugly
2014-07-03T17:42:36Z H4ns switches back
2014-07-03T17:42:37Z Xach: H4ns: i have a fix in the pipeline for buildapp
2014-07-03T17:42:54Z Xach: H4ns: unfortunately it's one of those things that made me want to fix a bunch of stuff at once
2014-07-03T17:43:01Z H4ns: Xach: nice, thanks!
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2014-07-03T17:44:33Z drmeister: How does a symbol know if it's name has no case or was set with |verticleBars|?
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2014-07-03T17:44:46Z Bicyclidine: its symbol name
2014-07-03T17:44:49Z pjb: It doesn't.
2014-07-03T17:44:52Z Xach: drmeister: a symbol knows its name. whether it prints without escape depends on reader settings.
2014-07-03T17:44:54Z Bicyclidine: symbols don't have "no case"
2014-07-03T17:44:54Z pjb: It doesn't need to know.
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2014-07-03T17:45:28Z jasom: drmeister: a symbol name is a string, period.
2014-07-03T17:45:40Z Xach: "."
2014-07-03T17:45:42Z drmeister: If I define a symbol '|screwyCase|   it should always print "screwyCase" - right?   Whatever *print-case* is.
2014-07-03T17:46:04Z jasom: drmeister: (read-from-string "foo") yields a symbol with the name "FOO" in the default io settings
2014-07-03T17:46:07Z Bicyclidine: the print-case entry goes into that
2014-07-03T17:46:13Z Bicyclidine: there's some implementation dependence, it seems
2014-07-03T17:46:43Z jasom: drmeister: if you want to preserve mixed-case symbols,  you can set *print-case* and *read-case* to :invert I think
2014-07-03T17:46:53Z pjb: (loop :for *print-case* :in '(:upcase :downcase :capitalize) :collect (prin1-to-string '|screwyCase|)) --> ("|screwyCase|" "|screwyCase|" "|screwyCase|")
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2014-07-03T17:49:13Z jasom: oh, print doesn't have :invert, just readtable-case
2014-07-03T17:49:39Z drmeister: Does the symbol name include the vertical bars?
2014-07-03T17:49:42Z jasom: drmeister: no
2014-07-03T17:49:43Z pjb: No.
2014-07-03T17:50:08Z Xach: I guess it's kind of cool that you can make a common lisp environment for years and not know much about symbols.
2014-07-03T17:50:10Z pjb: Try: (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve)  'screwyCase
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2014-07-03T17:50:57Z jasom: the symbol name is just a string; printing it readably adds whatever escaping is needed; it's probably conformant for (prin1-to-string '|foO|') to emit '\f\oO
2014-07-03T17:51:25Z jasom: (remove the spurious quote of course)
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2014-07-03T17:55:55Z jasom: pjb: your test fails on sbcl because loop :for initially binds the value to nil apparently
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2014-07-03T17:58:09Z jasom: if I fix that and change the prin1 to princ you end up with: ("screwyCase" "screwycase" "screwycase") as expected
2014-07-03T17:59:05Z jasom: (remember *print-case* only effects upper-case characters in symbol names, when they are printed unescaped
2014-07-03T18:00:53Z jasom: But setting the readtable-case changes that
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2014-07-03T18:02:37Z drmeister: So it's only upper case characters in symbol names that are effected by *print-case* and *print-escape*.
2014-07-03T18:02:58Z jasom: drmeister: no...
2014-07-03T18:03:07Z Bicyclidine: depending on the readtable case, or something, probably
2014-07-03T18:03:09Z jasom: *print-case* only has an effect if *print-escape* is not set
2014-07-03T18:03:17Z Bicyclidine: i wouldn't mess with any of this if you want to read it back in again
2014-07-03T18:03:24Z jasom: and the readtable-case affects which characters in symbol names are affected
2014-07-03T18:03:27Z jasom: clhs 22.1.3.3.2
2014-07-03T18:03:28Z specbot: Effect of Readtable Case on the Lisp Printer: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_accb.htm
2014-07-03T18:03:29Z drmeister: jasom: Understood - I was not bein precise.
2014-07-03T18:04:05Z jasom: If you set the readtable-case to invert, then you will mostly get the behavior you want at print time
2014-07-03T18:04:24Z jasom: however, that could have detrimental effects on source that was not expecting that
2014-07-03T18:04:31Z drmeister: There's work to do to make my system conform with the standard.
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2014-07-03T18:05:08Z pjb: jasom: wrong, *print-case* has an effect always.
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2014-07-03T18:05:31Z jasom: *print-case* has an effect at all times when the value of *print-escape* is false. *print-case* also has an effect when the value of *print-escape* is true unless inside an escape context (i.e., unless between vertical-bars or after a slash).
2014-07-03T18:06:06Z jasom: pjb: so you are right.
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2014-07-03T18:06:22Z pjb: (LOOP :FOR *PRINT-ESCAPE* :IN '(NIL T) :COLLECT (LOOP :FOR *PRINT-CASE* :IN '(:UPCASE :DOWNCASE :CAPITALIZE) :COLLECT (PRIN1-TO-STRING '|screwyCase|))) --> (("screwyCase" "screwyCase" "screwyCase") ("screwyCase" "screwyCase" "screwyCase"))
2014-07-03T18:06:24Z jasom: all caps symbols will be downcased, but on most implementation mixed-case symbols will not (since vertical bars are typically used)
2014-07-03T18:07:24Z pjb: What's really shameful, is when sbcl introduces bugs that cmucl didn't have…
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2014-07-03T18:07:53Z pjb: jasom: just read the clhs.
2014-07-03T18:08:07Z H4ns: yeah screw them all,f riggin sbcl developers and their damn changes.
2014-07-03T18:08:14Z H4ns: shame on you
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2014-07-03T18:09:50Z jasom: pjb: *print-case* has no effect on characters that are escaped; so if you print the whole symbol in vertical bars, then the *print-case* has no effect.
2014-07-03T18:10:27Z jasom: and implementations seem to prefer that to single-escapes
2014-07-03T18:11:30Z jasom: pjb: and I quoted the clhs for the line I said right after you pointed out I was wrong.
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2014-07-03T18:55:56Z Shinmera: On today's parasol adventures I (finally) noticed that I'm not receiving nearly enough input events. Turns out that Qt discards events if an event handler method or a window update call takes too long. So now I had to add threading and event queues to work around it.
2014-07-03T18:56:27Z Shinmera: What I'm trying to say is that Parasol's rendering pipeline is getting more and more gross and that makes me sad.
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2014-07-03T19:00:03Z shka: Shinmera: i think that Qt can also uses asynchronic event handling
2014-07-03T19:00:21Z shka: i can't remember details though
2014-07-03T19:00:31Z Shinmera: Well I don't want to receive tablet or mouse events out of order
2014-07-03T19:00:47Z Shinmera: So I doubt that'd be the right way to go about it
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2014-07-03T22:06:09Z joe-w-bimedina: in a defmethod are there lisp classes that I can use to differentiate between  a integer or a single float or a double float in the lambda list,  I have 3 methods to write for each of the aforementioned types
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2014-07-03T22:07:08Z Bicyclidine: float and integer are classes. single-float and double-float are not.
2014-07-03T22:07:33Z joe-w-bimedina: so my float defmethod would have a cond statement then righ?
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2014-07-03T22:07:45Z Bicyclidine: something like that.
2014-07-03T22:07:55Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks man:)
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2014-07-03T23:05:56Z eudoxia: i have a request, which i'm sure is just a simple google search away, but i simply cannot find it
2014-07-03T23:06:18Z eudoxia: i remember seeing an obscure library for representing (or generating) TeX in Common Lisp, with a Sexp syntax
2014-07-03T23:06:28Z eudoxia: does anyone remember it and have a link to it?
2014-07-03T23:07:28Z phadthai: http://cliki.net/site/search?query=tex maybe
2014-07-03T23:07:47Z jasom: looks like texp
2014-07-03T23:08:48Z eudoxia: thank you! that's exactly it
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2014-07-04T01:48:09Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: see com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:float-typecase
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2014-07-04T01:51:10Z joe-w-bimedina: [pjb]: is that a url?
2014-07-04T01:52:19Z pjb: No, it's a symbol!
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2014-07-04T01:52:33Z ahungry: looks like the reverse url naming scheme similar to what java uses
2014-07-04T01:52:41Z pjb: Exactly.
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2014-07-04T01:52:53Z pjb: Helpful, isn't it!
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2014-07-04T01:53:05Z ahungry: So, common-lisp.example.com would refer to their package as com.example.common-lisp:some-function
2014-07-04T01:53:14Z pjb: For example.
2014-07-04T01:54:02Z joe-w-bimedina: not sure i'm following
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2014-07-04T02:05:21Z Bike: slightly surprised http://utility.cesarum.common-lisp.com/ doesn't exist
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2014-07-04T02:05:27Z Bike: oh, i forgot the inform
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2014-07-04T02:06:04Z Bike: http://utility.cesarum.common-lisp.informatimago.com/ doesn't work either. how terrible
2014-07-04T02:06:11Z joe-w-bimedina: what was he talking about
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2014-07-04T02:06:51Z Bike: pjb has a bunch of software at his website, informatimago.com. it's organized into groups.
2014-07-04T02:07:07Z Bike: so this float typecase thing is in the utility group, in the cesarum group, in the common lisp group.
2014-07-04T02:07:49Z oGMo: to be fair, i'm pretty sure java packages don't work as urls, but i think the best feature is paying a yearly fee for the privilege of naming symbols
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2014-07-04T02:11:27Z phadthai: and avoiding naming conflicts
2014-07-04T02:11:47Z phadthai: not that I use that system myself though, but it's probably more useful when depending on many third party software
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2014-07-04T02:15:29Z joe-w-bimedina: so what is the real url he was directing me too?
2014-07-04T02:16:00Z Bike: he wasn't. he was saying he has this package you could use.
2014-07-04T02:16:11Z Bike: it's in informatimago.com somewhere.
2014-07-04T02:16:18Z Bike: (that one is a url)
2014-07-04T02:17:06Z joe-w-bimedina: I'd love to get it, pjb, if you can post direct link..
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2014-07-04T02:17:56Z Bike: it might be quickloadable, i forget
2014-07-04T02:18:25Z Bike: indeed it is. try (ql:system-apropos "informatimago")
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2014-07-04T02:21:42Z joe-w-bimedina: don't see float-typecase in the list but at least I understand the line he posted now
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2014-07-04T03:29:01Z joe-w-bimedina: can I set a value in the lambda list for an &optional param in a defmethod
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2014-07-04T03:32:55Z joe-w-bimedina: oh wait, I think &optional params when called in a defmethod behave like a defun
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2014-07-04T03:47:29Z zRecursive: sure
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2014-07-04T05:02:49Z joe-w-bimedina: OpenCv really overloads the = operator. I'm going to do the same kind of overloading in my own library for the bindings to those overloaded operators,  would it be more appropriate to call them something like assign-val or would anybody here find it weird if I called them with the name "==",
2014-07-04T05:04:05Z Bike: == for assignment?
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2014-07-04T05:05:25Z joe-w-bimedina: too weird, what would you call them if you did decide to overload  like I plan too?
2014-07-04T05:05:40Z Bike: i'd rather use setf.
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2014-07-04T05:06:19Z joe-w-bimedina: me too! How would I implement that , with defsetf, or...
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2014-07-04T05:07:09Z Bike: or just (defun (setf foo) ...) for simple cases. read the clhs.
2014-07-04T05:07:19Z Bike: clhs define-setf-expander
2014-07-04T05:07:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_3.htm
2014-07-04T05:07:22Z Bike: would be a place to start.
2014-07-04T05:07:53Z joe-w-bimedina: is there a book that touches on those functions?,  PCL didn't
2014-07-04T05:08:19Z joe-w-bimedina: I would love to master those by reading a chapter on them
2014-07-04T05:10:11Z joe-w-bimedina: btw I got to say, I didn't know your idea was possible,  but that idea is exactly the type of way I  would like to do everything
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2014-07-04T05:32:48Z drmeister: Bike: I'm separating all of the external dependencies into a separate git repository with my source code alone in its repository.
2014-07-04T05:33:56Z drmeister: I was messing around with "git submodule" and "git subtree" but they are complicated.  It's easier to just have side-by-side repositories.
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2014-07-04T05:35:46Z drmeister: Then I'll set up the clasp build system so if one builds it with dynamic linking it will look for libraries in the standard directories.   If one links it statically then one specifies the directories where to find the static libraries.
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2014-07-04T05:39:00Z drmeister: That way I can distribute my cake and eat it too.
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2014-07-04T09:00:08Z hitecnologys: madnificent: is there a way to construct JSON out of a-list using jsown without modifying its code? Documentation doesn't mention it and doing (cons :obj (some-funcall)) seems like a hack rather than complete solution.
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2014-07-04T12:59:01Z francogrex: for the format gurus, a question: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143094
2014-07-04T12:59:38Z francogrex: I am looking for a "null , 6" output, how?
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2014-07-04T13:05:24Z dim: to implement a unix-like pipe processing ala gunzip -c file.gz | process.lisp, would you use threads and streams?
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2014-07-04T13:07:33Z dim: it's quite unclear to me that the uiop:run-program allows to process its output while it's being produced, in a streaming fashion
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2014-07-04T13:18:21Z hitecnologys: dim: I don't think pipes work in streaming fashion.
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2014-07-04T13:18:52Z dim: at the unix level they do, with a 8192 bytes buffer by default IIRC
2014-07-04T13:19:19Z hitecnologys: Hmm. Neat. Threads and streams definitely then.
2014-07-04T13:19:42Z p_l: hitecnologys: packet-oriented pipes are linux-specific extension, iirc
2014-07-04T13:19:54Z dim: trying to understand if I can consume uiop:run-program :output in a streaming fashion then
2014-07-04T13:20:16Z dim: packet-oriented pipes sound like unix domain sockets to me, somehow
2014-07-04T13:20:35Z hitecnologys: I see.
2014-07-04T13:21:20Z hitecnologys: If you can't make uiop output to stream, you can rebind *standard-output*.
2014-07-04T13:22:15Z dim: uiop can provide a stream, it's unclear to me that it's going to wait until the input is finished before providing it to my code
2014-07-04T13:22:56Z hitecnologys: Last time I used it, it did wait until program finishes.
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2014-07-04T13:23:16Z p_l: dim: You can essentially apply same semantics as guaranteed datagram delivery protocols to pipes
2014-07-04T13:24:26Z oleo: francogrex: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143096
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2014-07-04T13:26:56Z dim: wow a simple test shows that I can get data as it appears
2014-07-04T13:27:10Z dim: (flet ((foo (stream) (loop for line = (read-line stream nil nil) while line do (format t "~a~%" line)))) (uiop:run-program "/Users/dim/dev/temp/foo.sh" :output #'foo))
2014-07-04T13:27:30Z dim: with foo.sh a shell script doing ls -l | while read line do echo $line sleep 1 done
2014-07-04T13:27:47Z dim: (missing ; here because I did repack from multi-line code)
2014-07-04T13:27:54Z dim: all good
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2014-07-04T15:06:50Z djdjfkfkkf: hello
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2014-07-04T15:10:37Z theos: hi
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2014-07-04T17:12:03Z joe-w-bimedina: I have a C binding which uses the OpenCV overloaded "=" operator to assign data from a OpenCV FileStorage object into a OpenCV FileNode object,  How the objects work aren't too important as long as you know after the assign operation the return value is still a FileNode object, but it now has some of the data the FileStorage object has. The C wrapper and my defcfun for it are here: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/f0950d2fbf8dfcf5e9bf I was
2014-07-04T17:12:03Z joe-w-bimedina:  given the idea , instead, of making defmethods, all named assign-val, for all of my bindings to the OpenCv "=" operator, to use the power of setf in my high level code to perform the assign operation. I read the documentation for defsetf , define-setf-expander and all the other functions referenced in the examples for those functions in the clhs but still don't understand how I would design this high level code.  I was hoping someone can p
2014-07-04T17:12:04Z joe-w-bimedina: rovide an example of how I can accomplish this,
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2014-07-04T17:18:47Z joe-w-bimedina: even helping me understand defsetf , define-setf-expander would be awesome too
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2014-07-04T17:36:39Z Fare: dunno what is there to be understood
2014-07-04T17:36:44Z Xach: What's the best practice these days to incorporate a file that's meaningful only on a single implementation? #+the-impl in system definition or something better?
2014-07-04T17:36:59Z Fare: there are a few simple examples in fare-utils, if that helps
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2014-07-04T17:37:23Z Fare: Xach: can you assume asdf3 ?
2014-07-04T17:37:36Z Fare: then :if-feature :sbcl
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2014-07-04T17:37:47Z Fare: if not, #+
2014-07-04T17:37:53Z Xach: Where does that go?
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2014-07-04T17:38:02Z Fare: in the component options
2014-07-04T17:38:23Z Fare: (:file "impl-sbcl" :if-feature :sbcl)
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2014-07-04T19:55:55Z francogrex: Hi I am unable to solve this issue of sbcl on armel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143101 anyone has pratical suggestions for me I would appreciate it?
2014-07-04T19:56:03Z jackdaniel: what do you think about this small translation layer? http://ix.io/dgp/common-lisp
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2014-07-04T19:57:58Z jackdaniel: francogrex: try at #sbcl. small hint - do you have enough memory? command to check ram is "free", not "df" (second one is abberv for disk-free)
2014-07-04T19:58:53Z francogrex: ok
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2014-07-04T19:59:52Z jackdaniel: sorry for repeating myself, but it might actually get missed - i would appreciate any comments on code i pasted few lines earlier :-)
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2014-07-04T20:52:52Z pjb: jackdaniel: you're confused about read time, compilation time, macro expansion time, run time.  Study more!
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2014-07-04T20:53:14Z pjb: jackdaniel: read time occurs before run-time!
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2014-07-04T20:55:13Z dim: ok, it seems that (let ((s (make-string-output-stream))) (uiop:run-program (source csv) :output s)) will load it all in memory then allow processing
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2014-07-04T20:55:55Z dim: I guess I have to use some libs providing in memory streams that will allow a unix pipe like processing, or I have to register a function
2014-07-04T20:56:04Z dim: all of sudden looks like something for later, not tonight
2014-07-04T20:56:56Z jackdaniel: pjb: im convinced im aware of fact that read time occurs before run-time - maybe my comments were misleading? if *compilation-time* is t, then strings will be translated when they are read, if it's nil, they will be funcalls
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2014-07-04T20:57:29Z jackdaniel: and as far as my hand-tests go, this behaviour seems to work
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2014-07-04T21:01:25Z jackdaniel: -- hovewer those let over defun are my bad idd :(
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2014-07-04T21:11:58Z pjb: jackdaniel: strings are bread before let is evaluated!
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2014-07-04T21:12:38Z pjb: jackdaniel: check http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/Ambitious.html
2014-07-04T21:13:05Z pjb: s/bread/read/
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2014-07-04T21:27:20Z jackdaniel: yes, that "let" was mistake, i just put it before pasting it to ix.io to help test interested ppl :( ill read this esay just in the morning, im now going asleep
2014-07-04T21:27:41Z jackdaniel: pjb: thanks for your time :)
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2014-07-05T02:34:56Z inklesspen: i'm looking for advice on implementing print-object for some of my classes (in such a way that the result can later be read in)
2014-07-05T02:35:16Z inklesspen: i've googled and found some examples of how to print objects in an unreadable way, but that's it.
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2014-07-05T02:53:26Z Fare: inklesspen, see fare-mop for some hints
2014-07-05T02:53:47Z Fare: You're probably want to emit #. forms and/or modify the reader.
2014-07-05T02:54:03Z Fare: of course, there's no 100% solution for CL.
2014-07-05T02:55:30Z inklesspen: i found http://quickdocs.org/fare-mop/api but the "website" link there is broken
2014-07-05T02:55:45Z inklesspen: i also found http://www.cliki.net/fare-mop which has some info but no links
2014-07-05T02:55:56Z inklesspen: is there an authoritative page?
2014-07-05T02:56:44Z inklesspen: i would like to browse the source in gitweb or github or some such, if possible
2014-07-05T02:57:33Z Fare: inklesspen, the interesting info is in the source code
2014-07-05T02:57:41Z inklesspen: yeah, where is that?
2014-07-05T02:58:02Z inklesspen: i see i can download a tarball or use quicklisp, but i like to browse source with my web browser before i download.
2014-07-05T02:58:18Z Fare: http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=users/fare/fare-mop.git
2014-07-05T02:58:24Z Fare: can you add a link to cliki ?
2014-07-05T03:00:16Z inklesspen: done
2014-07-05T03:00:18Z inklesspen: thanks
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2014-07-05T03:02:22Z inklesspen: a suggestion: simple-print-object's docstring should mention that the identity keyword argument functions as in print-unreadable-object
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2014-07-05T03:11:07Z Fare: thanks
2014-07-05T03:11:12Z Fare: will be in my next commit
2014-07-05T03:11:40Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm trying to create this function call: (mem-aref vec-2b-2 :uchar 1)  with the code here: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/bf0383390d1bdac87f85 but the ':uchar in the lambda list is evaluated without the colon,  how do I make it be evaluated with the colon?
2014-07-05T03:12:34Z Fare: what do you mean "without the colon" ????
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2014-07-05T03:13:20Z Fare: the : is not part of the symbol-name
2014-07-05T03:13:27Z Fare: if you want a :, add a :
2014-07-05T03:13:53Z Fare: I'm not sure what you're trying to do. GIGO
2014-07-05T03:14:39Z joe-w-bimedina: so just concatenate the ':uchar and the ":"
2014-07-05T03:15:45Z inklesspen: : is not part of the symbol name
2014-07-05T03:17:22Z inklesspen: joe-w-bimedina: i think you may be well served to back up a few steps and instead of asking "how can i do this very specific thing", say "I am trying to accomplish thing FOO. I believe I can accomplish it by doing BAR, because of reasons A and B"
2014-07-05T03:18:19Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec
2014-07-05T03:18:55Z inklesspen: also, evaluate this code. it may enlighten you: (eq :foo (find-symbol "FOO" (find-package "KEYWORD")))
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2014-07-05T03:21:09Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm trying to generate all these format t statements: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/d07f7ad8a90be4aee535 with a minimal amount of code:  starting from the top each 2 are similar . I figured I would start by generating the mem-aref statements,  the '?' is a macro for mem-aref I made.  If I could learn to generate this kind of code I could save time
2014-07-05T03:21:54Z joe-w-bimedina: that statement just evaluates to T
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2014-07-05T03:23:18Z inklesspen: why does it evaluate to T?
2014-07-05T03:23:32Z inklesspen: why is it that :foo is eq to the result of that find-symbol call?
2014-07-05T03:23:57Z joe-w-bimedina: that statement made a colon attach to "FOO"
2014-07-05T03:24:05Z inklesspen: no
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2014-07-05T03:24:50Z joe-w-bimedina: googling
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2014-07-05T03:26:54Z inklesspen: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/26_glo_k.htm and http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_find_s.htm are probably the most relevant references here
2014-07-05T03:27:50Z joe-w-bimedina: so this works but I don't see how it can nelp: (eq :uchar (find-symbol "UCHAR" (find-package "KEYWORD")))
2014-07-05T03:27:50Z joe-w-bimedina: T
2014-07-05T03:27:50Z joe-w-bimedina: CV>
2014-07-05T03:28:19Z inklesspen: do you know what kind of thing :uchar is now?
2014-07-05T03:28:35Z joe-w-bimedina: a symbol?
2014-07-05T03:28:42Z joe-w-bimedina: keyword?
2014-07-05T03:28:44Z inklesspen: yes. specifically, a keyword symbol.
2014-07-05T03:29:23Z inklesspen: you can look up arbitrary keyword symbols by their names using the find-symbol function and the KEYWORD package
2014-07-05T03:30:12Z joe-w-bimedina: great answer so this is my :uchar: (find-symbol "UCHAR" (find-package "KEYWORD")) ...thanks
2014-07-05T03:30:31Z joe-w-bimedina: is that the best way
2014-07-05T03:30:52Z inklesspen: keep in mind, find-symbol can only find symbols you have already used. if you haven't yet used it the "normal" way, you can use the intern function instead.
2014-07-05T03:31:01Z inklesspen: i think that is the best way that doesn't involve writing a macro.
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2014-07-05T03:37:23Z joe-w-bimedina: How would I use intern then so I can use with new symbols,  I updated gist with my attempt here but get same thing
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2014-07-05T04:06:18Z joe-w-bimedina: I found out this is the whole line I have to create: (mem-aref (c-pointer vec-2b-2) :uchar 1),  I am going to apply mem-aref to a list, so far I have this: (list (intern (concatenate 'string (symbol-name 'vec-) (symbol-name '2b))) (intern "UCHAR" "KEYWORD") 1)  which evauluates to:  (VEC-2B :UCHAR 1) I need it to evaluate to: ((c-pointer VEC-2B) :UCHAR 1),  can someone show me how to finish this up?
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2014-07-05T04:10:06Z inklesspen: first of all, you don't need to use symbol-name like that.
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2014-07-05T04:10:22Z inklesspen: you can just do (intern (concatenate 'string "vec-" "2b"))
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2014-07-05T04:11:14Z joe-w-bimedina: how do I add the (c-pointer...), the parentheses was  making things weird
2014-07-05T04:11:38Z inklesspen: what is c-pointer?
2014-07-05T04:11:46Z inklesspen: a function?
2014-07-05T04:12:04Z joe-w-bimedina: basically
2014-07-05T04:12:31Z joe-w-bimedina: well its part of my defclass
2014-07-05T04:12:44Z joe-w-bimedina: called like one though (c-pointer val)
2014-07-05T04:13:07Z inklesspen: okay, so you want to use apply
2014-07-05T04:13:21Z inklesspen: (apply #'c-pointer (list foo bar baz))
2014-07-05T04:14:07Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec
2014-07-05T04:16:57Z joe-w-bimedina: when I do this (apply #'c-pointer (list (intern (concatenate 'string "vec-" "2b")))) I get: There is no applicable method for the generic function  #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION C-POINTER (87)>when called with arguments (|vec-2b|). because, i think,  (intern (concatenate 'string "vec-" "2b")) when evaluated has pipe symbols on it
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2014-07-05T04:19:04Z inklesspen: oh yeah, case matters for symbols
2014-07-05T04:19:10Z inklesspen: you want (intern (concatenate 'string "VEC-" "2B"))
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2014-07-05T04:25:22Z joe-w-bimedina: When I run this I The only thing is when I do this :(apply #'c-pointer (list (intern (concatenate 'string "VEC-" "2B"))))  the vec-2b part is getting evaluated with parentheses like (vec-2b)
2014-07-05T04:33:55Z inklesspen: (list (intern (concatenate 'string "VEC-" "2B"))) returns (VEC-2B), which is a list containing one item, the symbol VEC-2B
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2014-07-05T04:34:55Z inklesspen: may I suggest you spend a little time with the first five chapters of http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2014-07-05T04:35:10Z inklesspen: because it seems to me you don't even understand what you're typing
2014-07-05T04:38:08Z joe-w-bimedina: this works for example (defun a (&rest args)  (apply #'c-pointer args))  but that apply statement I posted doesn't work though,, can you get it to work with another function?  those parentheses I think are whats holding  up
2014-07-05T04:38:29Z joe-w-bimedina: when I supply vec-2b as a param that is
2014-07-05T04:40:22Z inklesspen: at this point i'm convinced you're writing code by trial and error, understanding neither what you type nor what the result is.
2014-07-05T04:40:25Z inklesspen: i'm done
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2014-07-05T04:41:39Z joe-w-bimedina: I do appreciate your help
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2014-07-05T04:55:22Z joe-w-bimedina: |inklesspen|: sorry to put all that on you btw, as my next step in learning to generate code I will take your advice and read those chapters, you were very kind to help me with that and I really appreciate how far you helped me get.  I would like to be more like my colleague, he generates all his own code
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2014-07-05T13:29:11Z hao: anybody from china?
2014-07-05T13:30:06Z Xach: hao: I know one or two Chinese lispers, but none visit #lisp regularly
2014-07-05T13:30:20Z Xach: http://tianchunbinghe.blog.163.com/ is the one that i know best
2014-07-05T13:31:03Z Xach: luis: any word on a new slime release?
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2014-07-05T13:32:16Z stassats: just put out a new version, there weren't any breaking changes
2014-07-05T13:33:24Z Xach: I wonder if luis is asleep, or on holiday, or something.
2014-07-05T13:34:48Z hao: thanks a lot,Xach
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2014-07-05T14:14:19Z Shinmera: Any postmodern users in here? In the latest release when I define a dao-class with a "user" slot the query string then tries to insert into a field "_user_" which obviously doesn't exist on my table. Any reason why this is broken now or any way to work around it?
2014-07-05T14:14:30Z Shinmera: Even if I add a :col-name "user" to the slot definition it doesn't seem to work.
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2014-07-05T14:26:04Z H4ns: is it possible that "user" is a reserved sql word and postmodern modifies it for that reason?
2014-07-05T14:26:25Z Shinmera: I would assume so, but I'd also assume that it should escape it properly when used as a column name
2014-07-05T14:26:34Z Shinmera: that is to say with "" and not _'s
2014-07-05T14:27:14Z H4ns: i agree.  still, maybe that is why
2014-07-05T14:27:31Z Shinmera: It's also strange that it worked just fine before I did the quicklisp dist-update to the new postmodern version
2014-07-05T14:27:51Z H4ns: time to go through the git log to find out what might have changed and why
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2014-07-05T14:33:05Z stassats: i guess i can make a slime release, if i figure out how
2014-07-05T14:33:50Z H4ns: Shinmera: s-sql does use double quote to quote reserved words, not underscores.  my guess was probably wrong.
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2014-07-05T14:34:07Z Shinmera: H4ns: That just makes me all the more confused.
2014-07-05T14:34:27Z H4ns: Shinmera: sorry, i did not mean to confuse you :)
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2014-07-05T14:34:39Z inklesspen: USER is a postgres reserved keyword
2014-07-05T14:34:41Z Shinmera: No, you aren't the problem, don't worry.
2014-07-05T14:34:54Z Shinmera: I mean more that I'm even more mystified as to where the underscores might come from
2014-07-05T14:36:20Z loz2: hi, is there anything like go/rust threads for cl? cheap and message-passing style concurrency?
2014-07-05T14:36:31Z stassats: not really
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2014-07-05T14:43:51Z hitecnologys: loz2: you might want to check out lparallel. It does have some sort of basic code which you may try to adapt to your needs. I prefer using STMX instead of lparallel but it's not very cheap because it implements STM rather than simple locks.
2014-07-05T14:44:28Z loz2: hitecnologys: thanks, i just found it, will check out both
2014-07-05T14:44:37Z stassats: Xach: slime 2.8 released
2014-07-05T14:45:01Z stassats: oh crap
2014-07-05T14:45:05Z stassats: i committed the wrong thing
2014-07-05T14:45:12Z loz2: :D
2014-07-05T14:47:52Z loz2: hitecnologys: you are using STMX for synchronization, but what do you use to run parallel tasks?
2014-07-05T14:49:39Z hitecnologys: loz2: plain old and nice bordeaux-threads.
2014-07-05T14:50:03Z hitecnologys: loz2: but they're just interface to what CL implementation provides.
2014-07-05T14:50:05Z stassats: did a push force, i really hope nobody managed to pull it already
2014-07-05T14:50:11Z stassats: Xach: now really released
2014-07-05T14:50:38Z hitecnologys: stassats: holy crap, I've almost pulled the thing.
2014-07-05T14:51:36Z stassats: without force i would have to release 2.9, which wouldn't have been nice
2014-07-05T14:53:35Z stassats: does anybody else like "close all existing connections" prompt when connecting to a remote slime?
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2014-07-05T14:53:53Z stassats: it's the most stupid thing, and that's what i committed erroneously, commenting it out
2014-07-05T14:53:58Z hitecnologys: stassats: sure thing you had to make force push. I rewrite history all the time too.
2014-07-05T14:54:39Z H4ns: hitecnologys: as long as you're not trying to collaborate, that's fine.
2014-07-05T14:54:47Z hitecnologys: stassats: prompt is very annoying but I can't say it's stupid.
2014-07-05T14:54:50Z stassats: a) i can add a zillionth variable controlling it b) kill it entirely, possibly angering ellerh
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2014-07-05T14:56:26Z hitecnologys: H4ns: yeah, I know that. That's why I don't like Mercurial much: it makes it not so trivial.
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2014-07-05T14:57:23Z hitecnologys: stassats: I'd better add variable as you'll need to change documentation anyway so one more variable souldn't do much harm.
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2014-07-05T15:01:34Z hao: bye
2014-07-05T15:01:37Z hao: bye
2014-07-05T15:01:38Z hao: exit
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2014-07-05T15:02:21Z stassats: Xach: so, is the quicklisp release nigh?
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2014-07-05T15:37:31Z Xach: stassats: possibly. libraries are in quite good shape today!
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2014-07-05T15:38:20Z Xach: I sometimes wish slime was smaller than 1MB.
2014-07-05T15:38:47Z Xach: then i look at it and can't easily identify things to dump, except maybe changelogs
2014-07-05T15:39:37Z Lycurgus: why? 1MB is nothing
2014-07-05T15:40:28Z stassats: maybe using bzip2?
2014-07-05T15:40:45Z Lycurgus: and it's more than just a simple typlical cl pkg
2014-07-05T15:43:38Z FareWell: Hey, I wish I could have made asdf smaller.
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2014-07-05T15:56:27Z Shinmera: Hopefully I won't find a bunch of dumb bugs an hour after the QL release this time.
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2014-07-05T16:06:58Z pjb: 4 MB is nothing.
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2014-07-05T16:13:14Z Xach: Lycurgus: I like small things.
2014-07-05T16:13:35Z pjb: The port slime to hemlock or some other CL emacs.
2014-07-05T16:13:41Z pjb: s/The/Then/
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2014-07-05T18:43:50Z mathrick_: "I must rely on stock libraries / frameworks. “Stock” will be defined as installable via Common Lisp’s package manager Quicklisp."
2014-07-05T18:43:58Z mathrick_: this is a really weird definition of "stock"
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2014-07-05T18:45:09Z phadthai: yes
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2014-07-05T19:37:16Z Krystof: meh.  if that's stock, then "lock" is what's distributed with the implementation, and "two smoking barrels" I leave to the imagination
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2014-07-05T19:37:36Z stassats got a really fast run-program on sbcl
2014-07-05T19:37:45Z stassats: by using clone(2) and CLONE_VM
2014-07-05T19:38:04Z stassats: which avoids copying memory, hence it's fast and doesn't depend on the memory usage
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2014-07-05T19:41:17Z stassats: (but that isn't close to a shippable solution)
2014-07-05T19:41:23Z phadthai: some other systems have vfork for an equivalent too
2014-07-05T19:43:14Z stassats: vfork isn't really suitable
2014-07-05T19:43:55Z stassats: all you can do is call execve
2014-07-05T19:44:10Z phadthai: it's designed to speed up command execution, but expects execve and on error _exit, right
2014-07-05T19:47:07Z stassats: freebsd has rfork with RFMEM
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2014-07-05T19:53:26Z FareWell: stassats, what prevents shippability?
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2014-07-05T19:53:54Z FareWell: depending on what you want to do before execve, vfork could be sufficient
2014-07-05T19:54:12Z FareWell: fast path with vfork, slow path without
2014-07-05T19:55:02Z FareWell: problem being: many programs might want to tweak signals, etc. Maybe vfork + a small executable adapter to handle the many options after the fork?
2014-07-05T19:55:29Z stassats: vfork is entirely unsuitable
2014-07-05T19:56:39Z phadthai: why do you want a process for run-program if not about to use execve
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2014-07-05T19:57:27Z FareWell: what's wrong with vfork?
2014-07-05T19:57:48Z stassats: sorry, i'm not asking for advice
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2014-07-05T20:54:45Z fe[nl]ix: FareWell: https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=10354 and https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14750
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2014-07-05T21:08:56Z FareWell: fe[nl]ix, what's the status of spawn in iolib?
2014-07-05T21:09:08Z FareWell: not that I'm into these things at this time...
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2014-07-05T21:11:31Z fe[nl]ix: FareWell: it works and I plan to enhance it with good ideas from various places
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2014-07-05T21:12:16Z fe[nl]ix: e.g. I'm thinking of adding a vfork() emulator that uses clone() and CLONE_VM
2014-07-05T21:12:23Z fe[nl]ix: the musl guy says it works
2014-07-05T21:12:37Z phadthai: irt to vfork issues, yes since fork(2) is standard, and new implementations are generally quite fast using copy-on-write (and applications which fork a lot generally use preforked pools), vfork (and its limited use cases) is rarely used today anyway
2014-07-05T21:17:09Z FareWell: fe[nl]ix, does the kernel handle the signal blocking properly, or must you emulate that in userland with some magic synchronization mechanism?
2014-07-05T21:17:51Z fe[nl]ix: the latter, probably
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2014-07-05T21:34:03Z joe-w-bimedina_: If I am making a lambda list and I would like to use the 3rd boolean parameter of an &optional argument like (defun x (&optional (encoding (%string) given-encoding))....) is it safe to call the default param as nil if I don't want to supply a default param
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2014-07-05T21:35:09Z joe-w-bimedina_: If I am making a lambda list and I would like to use the 3rd boolean parameter of an &optional argument for a conditional inside the function  eg: (defun x (&optional (encoding nil given-encoding))....) is it safe to call the default param as nil if I don't want to supply a default param
2014-07-05T21:35:18Z joe-w-bimedina_: edit ^
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2014-07-05T21:38:45Z phadthai: what you want to do is unclear to me... however, if that's what you want, you can verify if the parameter has been supplied or not, other than if it's nil or not
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2014-07-05T21:39:45Z phadthai: i.e. using (arg default set-p), arg would default to default, but set-p could tell if it was supplied by the caller or not
2014-07-05T21:41:03Z joe-w-bimedina_: ok that does help
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2014-07-05T22:51:36Z FareWell: is clisp still maintained?
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2014-07-05T22:51:54Z FareWell: is http://clisp.hg.sourceforge.net:8000/hgroot/clisp/clisp still the official source? I see no commit in over a year
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2014-07-05T22:54:03Z nisstyre: Fare: just because nobody has changed something in a while that doesn't mean it's broken
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2014-07-05T22:54:46Z Fare: actually, the sourceforge website seems to have more changes, but hg pull -u shows nothing
2014-07-05T22:55:06Z Fare: maybe it's just me not knowing how to use hg
2014-07-05T22:55:22Z Fare: nisstyre, some things are out of date, such as asdf — at least in my copy
2014-07-05T22:55:48Z nisstyre: Fare: http://downloads.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/clisp/clisp-2.49.tar.bz2
2014-07-05T22:56:08Z inklesspen: Fare: there's activity on the clisp mailing lists, at least
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2014-07-05T22:56:24Z Fare: is hg pull -u not the right thing?
2014-07-05T22:56:30Z Fare: or hg history ?
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2014-07-05T23:11:50Z Xach: Fare: I used this today: hg clone http://hg.code.sf.net/p/clisp/clisp clisp
2014-07-05T23:11:58Z Xach: per http://sourceforge.net/p/clisp/clisp/ci/default/tree/
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2014-07-05T23:28:15Z Fare: tweaking the hg repo to the now one advertised on the sf.net site, I see two changesets in may for ancillary files.
2014-07-05T23:28:32Z Fare: Xach: yes, that's the one I *now* use
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2014-07-05T23:29:59Z joe-w-bimedina_: I have some bindings for  C++ class members that can accept 3 or 4 different types as input ,  I made a gist detailing the issue I'm having with them here https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/1d19ceb00f1822354461/edit If someone is free and maybe would like to offer advice I would much appreciative:
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2014-07-06T01:19:42Z drmeister: joe-w-bimedina_: That gist link doesn't lead anywhere
2014-07-06T01:21:50Z joe-w-bimedina_: hi drmeister,  sorry about that broken link,  here is the good one https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/1d19ceb00f1822354461/edit
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2014-07-06T01:27:01Z joe-w-bimedina_: drmeister: not sure if you saw^
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2014-07-06T01:30:10Z drmeister: I keep getting: We seem to have missed the gist of that gist you were looking for.
2014-07-06T01:30:17Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/1d19ceb00f1822354461/edit
2014-07-06T01:31:43Z joe-w-bimedina_: weird, it worked for me..anyway here is another on a paste site http://www.heypasteit.com/clip/1FPX
2014-07-06T01:31:46Z girrig: gotta nix the edit at the end
2014-07-06T01:32:08Z joe-w-bimedina_: is that to me?
2014-07-06T01:32:21Z inklesspen: yeah
2014-07-06T01:32:22Z girrig: ay
2014-07-06T01:32:40Z inklesspen: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/1d19ceb00f1822354461/ works.
2014-07-06T01:32:46Z inklesspen: although it's still not very easy to read.
2014-07-06T01:34:23Z joe-w-bimedina_: that gist worked for meediting
2014-07-06T01:34:38Z joe-w-bimedina_: i mean editing now
2014-07-06T01:35:49Z inklesspen: it worked for you because it belongs to your user account
2014-07-06T01:35:51Z joe-w-bimedina_: its edited, sorry about that I'll remember to do that next time
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2014-07-06T01:36:34Z joe-w-bimedina_: weird, its always worked before, and i'm doing it the same way, must be a bug somewhere
2014-07-06T01:36:55Z inklesspen: given my experience with your understanding of the tools you use, i suspect the error is on your end.
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2014-07-06T01:42:02Z axion: find it hard to believe 1st 5 chapters were understood already
2014-07-06T01:42:34Z joe-w-bimedina_: going to start today:)
2014-07-06T01:44:00Z inklesspen: maybe read them before coming back and asking for help
2014-07-06T01:44:28Z joe-w-bimedina_: this is a different issue
2014-07-06T01:44:35Z inklesspen: no it isn't
2014-07-06T01:45:14Z inklesspen: the issue is still "you don't understand how really basic parts of Lisp work"
2014-07-06T01:46:23Z joe-w-bimedina_: that code at the bottom of the page is a mock up of the error,  I do write plenty of successful lisp code, but this is a place to come when you can't figure out something, so this is why I asked this question here today
2014-07-06T01:48:11Z inklesspen: given that last night i had to explain to you what a keyword symbol was, i kind of doubt that.
2014-07-06T01:48:16Z inklesspen: but i'll leave you alone now
2014-07-06T01:49:39Z joe-w-bimedina_: I knew what a keyword symbol was just not how to create one the way I posted,  I used keywords before,  even the best of us have to ask questions sometimes
2014-07-06T01:51:05Z joe-w-bimedina_: I do appreciate you advice on reading that,  I took that to heart and am going to start in about an hour
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2014-07-06T02:00:00Z Xach: Does sbcl use :WINDOWS in *FEATURES* on windows?
2014-07-06T02:02:54Z Fare: Xach: yes it does
2014-07-06T02:04:23Z Fare: or if not, there's a bug in uiop :-(
2014-07-06T02:04:26Z Fare: which there might be
2014-07-06T02:05:14Z drmeister: Don
2014-07-06T02:05:30Z Fare: the sbcl/src/code/save.lisp says #+win32
2014-07-06T02:05:36Z Fare: #!+win32 actually
2014-07-06T02:05:51Z Fare: ok, uiop patch coming
2014-07-06T02:08:00Z drmeister: joe-w-bimedina_: It is a bit difficult to follow what you are doing and what the problem is.  It looks like you are type punning - which is a dangerous thing to do with C++.
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2014-07-06T02:10:02Z joe-w-bimedina_: well I have been calling my BRISK, SURF etc types by the name FEATURE-2D as well as the input to the top 3 functions(first param) .  And that makes it hard to write defmethods for them,  I was hoping to find a better idea
2014-07-06T02:10:25Z joe-w-bimedina_: where I still use overloaded defmethods
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2014-07-06T02:16:57Z joe-w-bimedina_: since I can give any type out of brisk, surf etc to the top 3 functions without changing the c code if I just change my defcfun types, I guess if ‎made multiple defcfuns and then wrote methods with the same name for each one it would work out.  Thank you drmeister: that type punning warning really made me think?
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2014-07-06T04:05:23Z joe-w-bimedina_: is there a way I can make a defcun accept more one type?
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2014-07-06T04:08:11Z joe-w-bimedina_: becuae  in the cffi doc, it says define-foreign type has the supers param ,   A list of symbols naming the super classes.
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2014-07-06T05:12:53Z gigamonkey: Xach: you here?
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2014-07-06T05:25:19Z wizzo: is there any specific reason why a lot of lisp tutorials use symbols for example data
2014-07-06T05:25:23Z wizzo: like returning a whole sentence
2014-07-06T05:25:29Z Bike: because it's easy.
2014-07-06T05:25:31Z wizzo: is it completely safe to do?
2014-07-06T05:25:44Z wizzo: i guess it just feels wrong to me
2014-07-06T05:25:44Z Bike: well, probably you'd want to use strings, in an actual system.
2014-07-06T05:26:07Z wizzo: yeah that makes sense
2014-07-06T05:26:24Z Bike: Really old lisp systems didn't have strings, and people used symbols instead.
2014-07-06T05:26:40Z Bike: And it's a bit easier to deal with lists of symbols than with strings, since there's no built in split on space, etc.
2014-07-06T05:26:52Z wizzo: oooh okay
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2014-07-06T05:27:16Z wizzo: thanks i feel a bit better about it now
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2014-07-06T05:59:13Z gigamonkey: wizzo: what tutorials?
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2014-07-06T06:01:29Z wizzo: gigamonkey: land of lisp does and i think the gentle introduction to symbolic computation book does too
2014-07-06T06:01:46Z wizzo: land of lisp actually explained why a few pages lated probably could have saved myself the question
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2014-07-06T08:03:47Z joe-w-bimedina_: I'm trying to create a defmethod that will take the place of the defun that the defmethod would normally wrap, to save my self a step, the defmethod and the defgeneric are here, the defmethod would need to have a 3 element &optional param.  How do I make this defgeneric/defmethod compile
2014-07-06T08:03:56Z joe-w-bimedina_: here https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/834b1c5c25755a8caf9a
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2014-07-06T08:05:53Z ck_: I don't understand your problem
2014-07-06T08:08:14Z joe-w-bimedina_: I get this error when I compile them: The lambda-list (SELF QUERY-DESCRIPTORS TRAIN-DESCRIPTORS  MATCHES &OPTIONAL MASK) is incompatible with existing methods of #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION DESCRIPTOR-MATCHER-MATCH (3)>.  and i think its because of this:  (mask (%mat) given-mask)
2014-07-06T08:08:32Z joe-w-bimedina_: how would i get this to compile while keeping this (mask (%mat) given-mask)
2014-07-06T08:09:37Z stassats: that's not even the same function
2014-07-06T08:09:55Z joe-w-bimedina_: don't understand
2014-07-06T08:10:03Z ck_: the names in your gist name different functions
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2014-07-06T08:12:42Z joe-w-bimedina_: oops, well i still get the same error named right, I added to the intermediary defun I'm trying to replace with the defmethod that would normally be called with an apply function in the defmethod
2014-07-06T08:13:06Z joe-w-bimedina_: :i added to the gist the inter..
2014-07-06T08:14:14Z ck_: that's not the point; your compiler error tells you that you have incompatible definitions for the function descriptor-matchar-match . descriptor-matcher-match-bf-matcher is irrelevant to that.
2014-07-06T08:14:26Z ck_: your names make me dizzy
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2014-07-06T08:15:21Z joe-w-bimedina_: the name  is a low level function name,  the defun is for reference, i'm trying to replace it with a defmethod
2014-07-06T08:15:56Z francogrex: stassats: sbcl armel installs & runs perfect when using hardware (my samsung phone armv6); it was when qemu on x86 that gave me problem.
2014-07-06T08:16:00Z ck_: Also, I fail to understand your whole venture. You're writing a common lisp wrapper to opencv, right? To what purpose? Are you attempting that while learining CL, or /in order to/ learn it?
2014-07-06T08:16:31Z joe-w-bimedina_: using it as a tool to master 3 languages and a library
2014-07-06T08:17:00Z joe-w-bimedina_: I just would like to replace that defun with a defmethod ,  how do i do that
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2014-07-06T08:18:55Z joe-w-bimedina_: might help if you could tell me what it is called when I do this:   (mask (%mat) given-mask)
2014-07-06T08:20:16Z ck_: the problem is not what you think it is. I think you really should separate trying to learn the language from attempting what you are attempting, because it can really be quite frustrating to watch.
2014-07-06T08:20:52Z ck_: try looking at (fdefinition 'descriptor-matcher-match) , you'll see that you have older definitions of the function that don't match the new lambda list in your source file
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2014-07-06T08:28:35Z joe-w-bimedina_: Man you are a good debugger,  I was so focused on the fact that this:  (mask (%mat) given-mask) might not work in a defmethod, I overlooked the fact that something else could be the issue,  man you are top notch, thanks alot man
2014-07-06T08:29:00Z joe-w-bimedina_: the error seemed to support that too
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2014-07-06T08:58:56Z alama: seems that the latest slime doesn't work with sbcl 1.2.1
2014-07-06T08:59:03Z stassats: wrong
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2014-07-06T09:02:01Z alama: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143109
2014-07-06T09:02:14Z stassats: still wrong
2014-07-06T09:02:22Z stassats: that's not the latest slime
2014-07-06T09:02:42Z Shinmera: There was a release just yesterday
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2014-07-06T09:03:51Z alama: ah, ok
2014-07-06T09:10:16Z alama: it does seem to work -- thanks
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2014-07-06T10:01:52Z AnySomebody: Hello
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2014-07-06T10:20:45Z H4ns: hello
2014-07-06T10:21:10Z moah: hi
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2014-07-06T10:23:50Z moah: if I want to use a sbcl extension like gray streams, how do I access it? is it automatically loaded, and when not, how do I load it?
2014-07-06T10:24:18Z stassats: it isn't, you load it explicitly or through asdf
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2014-07-06T10:28:23Z moah: you mean by adding it it, for example to asdf:defsystem :depends-on (:sb-gray)?
2014-07-06T10:28:47Z joe-w-bimedina_: is anyone here on ubuntu trusty, and if so have you gotten emacs to open maximized when starting from the launcher,  been at that a long time and no online tutorial has worked
2014-07-06T10:31:21Z Stanislav: moah: you could use a portability layer (trivial-gray-streams in this case) and at the same time write portable code and let quicklisp load everything for you
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2014-07-06T10:33:02Z moah: Stanislav: I know, i plan to use trivial-gray-streams from quicklisp, but for the sake of learning i wanted to try it with the underlying sbcl first, but have never used any sbcl extension and the manual is light in how to actually use them in code.
2014-07-06T10:33:25Z stassats: the same as trivial-gray-streams
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2014-07-06T10:35:47Z moah: that was my question, are the extensions systems or packages, do i have include them in defsystem or just use them from a package?
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2014-07-06T10:37:12Z moah: trivial-gray-streams would be loaded by quicklisp, so if sb-gray isnt loaded by default, how can I load it? (sorry if the question is dumb, I dont really know how to load an sbcl extension)
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2014-07-06T10:39:21Z stassats: the same as trivial-gray-streams
2014-07-06T10:41:31Z moah: (ql:quickload "ab-gray") => System "sb-gray" not found
2014-07-06T10:43:20Z stassats: sb-gray isn't not a contrib
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2014-07-06T10:44:32Z moah: can you simply tell me how I can use it, instead of claiming it is the same as trivial-gray-streams when it obviously isnt? i dont know what a "contrib" is either, I just want to use it.
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2014-07-06T10:50:40Z H4ns: moah: please don't make your ignorance for the level of the conversation in this channel.
2014-07-06T10:50:53Z H4ns: the benchmark for the level of the conversation
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2014-07-06T10:51:33Z stassats: you load contribs the same as any other asdf system, whatever is not a contrib doesn't need to be loaded
2014-07-06T10:54:56Z moah: H4ns: youre free to ignore beginner questions that are below your "level".
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2014-07-06T10:55:26Z moah: stassats: thanks, "doesnt need to be loaded" is what i wanted to know.
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2014-07-06T10:56:27Z H4ns: moah: i am.  i am also free to comment on anything i desire.  if you don't know what a contrib is, you could ask instead of complaining about the help that you receive.
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2014-07-06T11:06:22Z moah: i just wanted to ask a quick question, not to start a whole chain of questions about sbcl internals.
2014-07-06T11:07:13Z moah: but ok.
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2014-07-06T11:25:35Z pjb: A lot of irc newbies don't realize that we're not here to give quick answers to quick questions, but to further understanding and deep comprehension of common lisp.
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2014-07-06T12:25:22Z hitecnologys: pjb: nobody reads bloody manuals. They're for quoting mostly, not for reading.
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2014-07-06T12:39:54Z H4ns: hitecnologys: it is interesting how you use the word "nobody".  one could infer that you're pretty ignorant.
2014-07-06T12:42:43Z wizzo: H4ns: i think that's called a joke
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2014-07-06T12:43:37Z H4ns: "haha"
2014-07-06T12:44:10Z wizzo: it must be awful having no sense of humour
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2014-07-06T12:49:55Z H4ns: i don't find it funny that people don't read manuals and even joke about that fact.
2014-07-06T12:50:08Z stassats: what's funny, people don't write manuals
2014-07-06T12:50:09Z H4ns: but ignorance is bliss, we know that.
2014-07-06T12:50:24Z H4ns: stassats: yeah, because shitheads say that nobody reads them.
2014-07-06T12:50:36Z wizzo: "shitheads"
2014-07-06T12:50:46Z wizzo: i already said it must be awful having no sense of humour
2014-07-06T12:51:08Z stassats: wizzo: is there a manual for that?
2014-07-06T12:51:25Z wizzo: stassats: i'd say no but i wouldn't want to offend anyone
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2014-07-06T12:52:09Z louipc: ooh I heard there are shitheads here
2014-07-06T12:53:55Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I've extrapolated the thing a bit. Yes, "nobody" isn't exactly the right term to use in such case.
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2014-07-06T12:54:03Z pjb: You could write 100-page manuals, mostly left blank, and see when you get your first complain.
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2014-07-06T12:54:59Z ck_: Reading manuals is the most awesome thing. It enables you to get stuff done quicker, which leaves more time for reading manuals.
2014-07-06T12:55:00Z H4ns: hitecnologys: it is the wrong term.  it is fair to say that too few people read manuals, but it is them who are at fault.  and of course, there are too few manuals around, and even fewer good manuals.
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2014-07-06T12:55:05Z wizzo: dear pjb u r a shithead y did u leave this blank love H4ns
2014-07-06T12:55:47Z H4ns: says wizzo, the grand contributor of wisdom and help.
2014-07-06T12:56:40Z louipc: what questions can I ask in here?
2014-07-06T12:56:56Z pjb: Anything related to Common Lisp
2014-07-06T12:57:14Z wizzo: how many people do i need to help before i can insult people?
2014-07-06T12:57:34Z louipc: what's the average size of a Common Lisper e-peen?
2014-07-06T12:57:35Z pjb: There's no insult in Common Lisp.
2014-07-06T12:57:36Z H4ns: wizzo: 25
2014-07-06T12:58:03Z wizzo: you're on
2014-07-06T12:58:09Z pjb: But have a look at http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=public/bin&h=a60ceb5246fc85211f97b26f416aa5ecb3e1048c&hb=4ad024bfeab3f43cc749e6e875df155202048ca0&f=insulte
2014-07-06T12:58:24Z stassats: wizzo: you can help people by insulting them
2014-07-06T12:58:24Z pjb: Espèce d'autodidacte anthropophage !
2014-07-06T12:58:25Z pjb:  
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2014-07-06T12:59:09Z wizzo: i don't know enough lisp yet to make jokes about it :(
2014-07-06T13:00:17Z wizzo: H4ns: i can learn and i'm gonna learn for you
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2014-07-06T13:01:12Z hitecnologys: H4ns: yes, you're right. Sometimes by logical coprocessor just goes funny and makes me say such a terms as "nobody" and "everybody". I try to stop these impulses but I doesn't work all the times.
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2014-07-06T13:02:10Z louipc: why only common lisp in this channel?
2014-07-06T13:02:21Z pjb: Because other lisps have their own channel.
2014-07-06T13:03:09Z louipc: but shouldn't this be the general lisp channel and common lisp can have its own channel?
2014-07-06T13:03:22Z pjb: For lisp in general, there's #lisp-lab and for general discussion: #lispcafe
2014-07-06T13:03:56Z pjb: Perhaps, but like cll, lisp is preempted by Common Lisp.  All lisps should be a subset or a superset of Common Lisp.
2014-07-06T13:04:28Z wizzo: oh i didn't know that
2014-07-06T13:04:36Z wizzo: which is scheme?
2014-07-06T13:04:36Z stassats: C is a subset of Common Lips
2014-07-06T13:04:48Z louipc: hmm I heard that common lisp was the most bloated
2014-07-06T13:05:03Z stassats: C++, the superset of Common Lisp, is more bloated
2014-07-06T13:05:35Z hitecnologys: louipc: you've heard wrong. It's more feature-rich.
2014-07-06T13:05:42Z louipc: ic
2014-07-06T13:06:24Z Shinmera: Also see Greenspun's tenth rule
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2014-07-06T13:11:39Z pjb: Lone Rifle, the fastest IRCer west of the Mississipi.
2014-07-06T13:12:59Z hitecnologys: Have anyone had experience writing initramfs's init script in Lisp?
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2014-07-06T13:13:46Z pjb: Good question.  I've generated grub2 files from lisp…
2014-07-06T13:14:18Z pjb: Perhaps it was emacs lisp, I don't remember.
2014-07-06T13:14:29Z hitecnologys: pjb: do you still have the code?
2014-07-06T13:14:48Z pjb: Let me search.
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2014-07-06T13:17:23Z pjb: Well, no.  It was on a server at work, I don't have.  In any case, it's a simple script, collecting chunks of text configuration depending on the parameters.
2014-07-06T13:18:01Z hitecnologys: I see.
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2014-07-06T13:29:33Z hitecnologys: Hmm.
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2014-07-06T13:30:46Z hitecnologys: SBCL goes into infinite recursion when I try to compile the latest version of source code. I'm using ./make.sh --fancy --prefix=$HOME/random/prefix. Is it normal?
2014-07-06T13:31:18Z stassats: does it sound normal?
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2014-07-06T13:31:36Z hitecnologys: No. I was just wondering if it's a known problem.
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2014-07-06T14:17:27Z madnificent: hitecnologys: I don't think that'd be a great way of going about it.  The internal model isn't meant to be stable.  I'd transform it instead.
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2014-07-06T14:22:08Z Ralt: Xach: thanks for the quick feedback on quicklisp-slime-helper
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2014-07-06T14:30:54Z hitecnologys: madnificent: me neither. But transform to what?
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2014-07-06T14:44:46Z shka: hi
2014-07-06T14:45:03Z shka: does sbcl have a way to perform multithreaded mapcar?
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2014-07-06T14:46:15Z madnificent: hitecnologys: build a generator using jsow:new-js and jsown:val ?
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2014-07-06T14:47:51Z madnificent: hitecnologys: or just setf even.  jsown:val has a custom setf-expander.  so you could do (let (json) (setf (jsown:val json "foo") bar) (jsown:to-json json))
2014-07-06T14:48:28Z hitecnologys: madnificent: so, I make empty/basic JSON first and then add all necessary stuff?
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2014-07-06T14:49:08Z hitecnologys: madnificent: wouldn't it be significantly slower?
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2014-07-06T14:49:46Z madnificent: that's how I'd go about it.  use the setf-expander if you have nested content.
2014-07-06T14:49:58Z hitecnologys: I see.
2014-07-06T14:50:11Z madnificent: yes, it would be a lot slower.  If performance proves to be a problem in benchmarks, then indeed you could hardwire to the current internal format.
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2014-07-06T14:50:36Z madnificent: there's little wrong with tying directly to it as it's probably not going to change, but it doesn't feel right.
2014-07-06T14:50:51Z hitecnologys: Yes, it doesn't feel right.
2014-07-06T14:51:27Z hitecnologys: I think I'll just write macro that will generate needed JSON as most of the required data is known at compile time.
2014-07-06T14:51:39Z hitecnologys: Thanks for help.
2014-07-06T14:51:51Z phadthai: shka: maybe some parallel libraries support parallel mapping operations, but not the native sbcl mapcar I think
2014-07-06T14:51:56Z madnificent: hitecnologys: if you would go thet latter route and hardwire it: create a function which imports the keys from an alist and add it to jsown.  send a pull-request, and use that.  it could then evolve if the internal structure ever evolves.
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2014-07-06T14:53:10Z shka: phadthai: i'm searching trough the libs on the quickdocs
2014-07-06T14:54:02Z shka: lparallel seems to do it
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2014-07-06T14:55:54Z hitecnologys: madnificent: you mean create a function which converts alist to internal representation?
2014-07-06T14:56:13Z madnificent: hitecnologys: yes.  However, I'm not keen on having it, so if you can work around it, I'd prefer that.
2014-07-06T14:56:18Z pjb: shka: performing any part of mapcar in parallel would require a lot of machinery.
2014-07-06T14:56:30Z pjb: shka: for most mapcar call, it wouldn't be worth the cost.
2014-07-06T14:56:49Z pjb: shka: therefore it is better that the programmer decide when to use a parallel mapcar instead of CL:MAPCAR.
2014-07-06T14:57:00Z hitecnologys: madnificent: I'm pretty sure I can avoid using internal representation.
2014-07-06T14:57:18Z phadthai: yes I agree with pjb
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2014-07-06T14:57:48Z phadthai: it'd be non-trivial for a native operator to properly evaluate when it should use parallel map
2014-07-06T14:57:58Z phadthai: and that'd cost cycles for the common case
2014-07-06T14:59:29Z Ralt`: hitecnologys: wouldn't cl-coroutine help with your use case?
2014-07-06T14:59:48Z shka: phadthai: thtat is certainly true
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2014-07-06T15:03:08Z hitecnologys: Ralt`: I'm not sure how.
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2014-07-06T16:34:32Z inanc: hello
2014-07-06T16:34:51Z inanc:  question: i have trouble building slime, got the latest release from git and my build stops with the following errors: test/slime-c-p-c.tests.el:1:1:Error: Symbol's function definition is void: defun* and Makefile:recipe for target 'contrib-compile' failed
2014-07-06T16:35:04Z ehu_ is now known as ehu
2014-07-06T16:35:06Z inanc: anyone know how to solve this?
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2014-07-06T16:35:34Z stassats: there is a build?
2014-07-06T16:36:07Z antoszka: inanc: I stick to the slime/swank provided by quicklisp
2014-07-06T16:36:23Z antoszka: inanc: it's always rather recent and usually stable/tested
2014-07-06T16:36:31Z antoszka: recommend that
2014-07-06T16:36:34Z stassats: not this time
2014-07-06T16:36:40Z antoszka: nope?
2014-07-06T16:36:43Z stassats: inanc: just don't build it
2014-07-06T16:37:23Z inanc: hmm, I would have liked to build it..
2014-07-06T16:37:33Z stassats: what for?
2014-07-06T16:37:53Z inanc: just like getting the latest source from git and then building it myself
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2014-07-06T16:38:06Z stassats: the thing is, slime doesn't need to be built
2014-07-06T16:38:23Z Bike: yeah, what exactly are you doing? make? is there even a makefile?
2014-07-06T16:38:39Z inanc: there is a makefile, yes
2014-07-06T16:38:58Z inanc: But I didn't know it does not have to be build, sorry
2014-07-06T16:39:38Z stassats: it may be just broken, but i can't be bothered to fix it
2014-07-06T16:39:58Z stassats: since i never use that "feature"
2014-07-06T16:40:02Z pjb: inanc: you would just evaluate: (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper) in your CL implementation, add (load (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el")) in ~/.emacs and that's all you need!
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2014-07-06T16:40:52Z inanc: pjb: you are right, I just realized. I should have read the docs before trying to build it first. Sorry. I feel a little bit ashamed now :x
2014-07-06T16:41:10Z pjb: No need.
2014-07-06T16:41:28Z pjb: Some things are simplified with time.
2014-07-06T16:41:34Z inanc: thanks guys
2014-07-06T16:41:38Z antoszka: inanc: the emacs part will get updated with every quicklisp dist update, so there's no need to worry about that too
2014-07-06T16:41:38Z pjb: and the good work of Xach.
2014-07-06T16:41:40Z stassats: inanc: what version of emacs are you using?
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2014-07-06T16:42:31Z stassats: since it builds fine here
2014-07-06T16:42:43Z inanc: 24.3-7
2014-07-06T16:43:10Z inanc: well it says 24.3.1 in emacs itself
2014-07-06T16:43:13Z stassats: should work
2014-07-06T16:43:57Z stassats: and defun* is from the cl package
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2014-07-06T16:45:19Z stassats: well, if it works without compiling, then there's nothing to worry about
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2014-07-06T17:03:08Z inanc: works like a charm now, thanks again
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2014-07-06T17:07:08Z nell: have u read your sicp today?
2014-07-06T17:12:16Z p_l: nell: no, Abelson stole the it
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2014-07-06T18:22:39Z shka: i'm wonder
2014-07-06T18:22:52Z drmeister: Fix the build system on linux -> break the build system on OS X; fix the build system on OS X -> break the build system on linux.  Wash - rinse - lather - repeat.
2014-07-06T18:22:56Z shka: if there was any lisp machine with vector processor
2014-07-06T18:23:29Z drmeister: Cross-platform software development is in a sorry state.
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2014-07-06T18:23:56Z shka: drmeister: on lisp?
2014-07-06T18:24:33Z drmeister: I'm working on the linux/OS X build system of "clasp" my Common Lisp compiler.
2014-07-06T18:24:57Z drmeister: At the outer level I'm using make - (sigh).
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2014-07-06T18:25:08Z shka: drmeister: wow, nice!
2014-07-06T18:26:13Z drmeister: The code is C++ and it's built with a version of boost-build that I had to hack.  I'm trying to set it up so you edit one configuration file and type "make".
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2014-07-06T18:30:44Z Shinmera: diversity is nice except when you want to combine all of it
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2014-07-06T18:34:45Z shka: sorry
2014-07-06T18:34:52Z shka: connection problems
2014-07-06T18:34:54Z pjb: shka: Check
2014-07-06T18:34:54Z pjb:  
2014-07-06T18:34:54Z pjb: >  ;;================= Node.js REPL ==============
2014-07-06T18:34:56Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:34:56Z rau raises an eyebrow at pjb.
2014-07-06T18:35:00Z pjb: > ; Lifted from
2014-07-06T18:35:03Z pjb: > http://howardabrams.com/projects/dot-files/emacs-javascript.html
2014-07-06T18:35:05Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:35:08Z pjb: > ;Server JS with Node.js
2014-07-06T18:35:08Z rau: pjb: Please stop abusing your return key, you smelly loser.
2014-07-06T18:35:12Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:35:15Z pjb: > ;Use js-comint, but hook it up with node.js:
2014-07-06T18:35:18Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:35:22Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:35:22Z rau: pjb: Please stop abusing your return key, you cantankerous son of a bitch.
2014-07-06T18:35:23Z pjb: >  ; Use require instead of autoload
2014-07-06T18:35:26Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:35:29Z pjb: > (require 'js-comint)
2014-07-06T18:35:33Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:35:33Z rau: pjb: Please stop abusing your return key, you greasy-haired GNUtard.
2014-07-06T18:35:37Z pjb: > ;(autoload 'js-comint "js-comint"
2014-07-06T18:35:41Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:35:44Z pjb: > ; "Hooking JavaScript interpreter up to the JS Files." t nil)
2014-07-06T18:35:44Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:35:44Z rau: pjb: Please stop abusing your return key, you cringeworthy asshole.
2014-07-06T18:35:47Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:35:50Z pjb: >  (setenv "NODE_NO_READLINE" "1") ;; Turn off fancy node prompt
2014-07-06T18:35:53Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:35:56Z pjb: > ;; Use node as our repl
2014-07-06T18:35:56Z rau: pjb: Please stop abusing your return key, you illiterate shithead.
2014-07-06T18:35:59Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:36:02Z pjb: > (setq inferior-js-program-command "node")
2014-07-06T18:36:07Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:36:11Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:36:11Z rau: pjb: Please stop abusing your return key, you cringeworthy C nazi.
2014-07-06T18:36:14Z pjb: >  ;According to these instructions ( iink to nodejs.org ), we set the
2014-07-06T18:36:14Z pjb: > NODE_NO_READLINE variable.
2014-07-06T18:36:17Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:36:20Z pjb: > ;Need some prompt configuration for the REPL:
2014-07-06T18:36:21Z rau: pjb: Please stop abusing your return key, you abominable permavirgin.
2014-07-06T18:36:23Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:36:26Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:36:29Z pjb: >  (setq inferior-js-mode-hook
2014-07-06T18:36:32Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:36:32Z rau: pjb: Please stop abusing your return key, you gross asswipe.
2014-07-06T18:36:37Z pjb: > (lambda ()
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2014-07-06T18:36:41Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:36:44Z pjb: > ;; We like nice colors
2014-07-06T18:36:44Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:36:44Z rau: pjb: Please stop abusing your return key, you hairy permavirgin.
2014-07-06T18:36:47Z pjb: > (ansi-color-for-comint-mode-on)
2014-07-06T18:36:50Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:36:53Z pjb: > ;; Deal with some prompt nonsense
2014-07-06T18:36:56Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:36:56Z rau: pjb: Please stop abusing your return key, you bilious dork.
2014-07-06T18:36:59Z pjb: > (add-to-list
2014-07-06T18:37:02Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:37:07Z pjb: > 'comint-preoutput-filter-functions
2014-07-06T18:37:11Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:37:11Z rau: pjb: Please stop abusing your return key, you unpleasant pussy.
2014-07-06T18:37:14Z pjb: > (lambda (output)
2014-07-06T18:37:14Z pjb: >
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2014-07-06T18:37:17Z pjb: > (replace-regexp-in-string "\033\\[[0-9]+[GK]" "" output)
2014-07-06T18:37:20Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:37:20Z rau: pjb: Please stop abusing your return key, you ugly faggot.
2014-07-06T18:37:23Z pjb: > (replace-regexp-in-string ".*1G.*3G" "&GT;" output)
2014-07-06T18:37:26Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:37:29Z pjb: > (replace-regexp-in-string "&GT;" "> " output)))))
2014-07-06T18:37:32Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:37:33Z rau: pjb: Please stop abusing your return key, you wicked pussy.
2014-07-06T18:37:37Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:37:41Z pjb: >  ;Start the JavaScript node REPL with: run-js Set up some helpful keyboard
2014-07-06T18:37:44Z pjb: > instructions:
2014-07-06T18:37:44Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:37:44Z rau: pjb: Please stop abusing your return key, you indolent fuck.
2014-07-06T18:37:47Z pjb: > ;; Unable to make key binding work
2014-07-06T18:37:48Z Fare: cat you use a paste bot?
2014-07-06T18:37:50Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:37:51Z shka: pjb: cna you tell me what is just happening?
2014-07-06T18:37:53Z pjb: > (add-hook 'js2-mode-hook
2014-07-06T18:37:56Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:37:59Z pjb: > (lambda ()
2014-07-06T18:38:01Z Fare: flood
2014-07-06T18:38:02Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:38:02Z Shinmera: Best #lisp conversation in months right here
2014-07-06T18:38:07Z pjb: > (local-set-key (kbd "\C-c\C-c") 'js-send-buffer)
2014-07-06T18:38:07Z shka: lol
2014-07-06T18:38:11Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:38:12Z Fare: can someone kickban pjb for a short while?
2014-07-06T18:38:14Z pjb: > (local-set-key (kbd "\C-c\C-r") 'js-send-region)
2014-07-06T18:38:14Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:38:17Z pjb: > (local-set-key (kbd "\C-c\C-s") 'js-send-last-sexp)
2014-07-06T18:38:18Z phadthai: is rau a bot?
2014-07-06T18:38:20Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:38:23Z pjb: > (local-set-key (kbd "\C-c\C-z") 'run-js)))
2014-07-06T18:38:26Z pjb: >
2014-07-06T18:38:31Z phadthai: or just +q for the time of the mispaste :)
2014-07-06T18:38:32Z shka: (lambda (channel) (flood channel))
2014-07-06T18:38:32Z pjb: Oops.
2014-07-06T18:38:36Z Fare: rau is probably a bot, and pjb probably copy/pasted the wrong stuff
2014-07-06T18:38:37Z pjb: shka: check http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=319870
2014-07-06T18:38:44Z pjb: This is this damn erc bug.
2014-07-06T18:38:45Z Shinmera: whoops indeed
2014-07-06T18:38:53Z pjb: I think the message has been understood by everybody by now.
2014-07-06T18:39:17Z pjb: shka: check http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=319870
2014-07-06T18:39:20Z shka: pjb: can you tell me what is it?
2014-07-06T18:39:23Z pjb: shka: I copy and pasted this url, but instead got some previous paste.
2014-07-06T18:39:29Z pjb: Fare: too late, I would say.
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2014-07-06T18:39:44Z pjb: Connection Machine Lisp: fine-grained parallel symbolic processing
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2014-07-06T18:40:34Z shka: sounds fun
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2014-07-06T18:41:19Z shka: paywall, but not a huge loose since i won't be able to ever work on the symbolics machine
2014-07-06T18:41:38Z shka: even if lisp machines would have a comeback
2014-07-06T18:42:18Z pjb: Well, often you can google and find another copy.
2014-07-06T18:42:33Z shka: at the moment reading something different
2014-07-06T18:42:44Z shka: i was basicly interested
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2014-07-06T18:42:52Z pjb: shka: but right, I'm sorry, I should have answered just YES to your "if there was any lisp machine with vector processor" question.
2014-07-06T18:43:24Z shka: pjb: no, i'm greetfull about your answer
2014-07-06T18:44:34Z shka: proper scientific document is a valuable form of answer
2014-07-06T18:44:44Z shka: and this one was written by Steel
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2014-07-06T18:46:30Z shka: pjb: maybe you happen to know how modern implementations works?
2014-07-06T18:46:50Z shka: do they actually use vector intructions?
2014-07-06T18:47:40Z pjb: shka: it was named *Lisp.  http://people.csail.mit.edu/bradley/cm5docs/nov06/GettingStartedinStarLisp.pdf
2014-07-06T18:48:09Z pjb: shka: Perhaps sbcl uses them.  In anycase, you can write VOP to do so, and IIRC, some libraries do that.
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2014-07-06T18:50:37Z shka: pjb: thanks for answer
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2014-07-06T20:24:35Z Rosario: Who is the maintainer of paste.lisp.org? I found a bug.
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2014-07-06T20:43:55Z dim: is there anything in the CL world that would compare to racket (plt)?
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2014-07-06T20:44:25Z Denommus: dim: what exactly do you want from Racket?
2014-07-06T20:44:29Z dim: I mean the complete with all the libs package (console, GUI, web, you name it)
2014-07-06T20:44:34Z dim: I want to program fun games with my kids
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2014-07-06T20:44:45Z dim: starting at the console, evolving to visuals, etc
2014-07-06T20:45:05Z Denommus: dim: you have separate packages for that in quicklisp :-)
2014-07-06T20:45:23Z dim: yeah, but finding the right ones and learning them seem like a major PITA
2014-07-06T20:45:35Z dim: whereas with racket it's all consolidated already and I have a single place with all the docs
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2014-07-06T20:46:14Z H4ns: dim: no.  cl is not a suitable language for kids.
2014-07-06T20:46:38Z dim: mmm, why not?
2014-07-06T20:47:08Z H4ns: dim: because it is a tool for the professional programmer.  you would not teach driving a car using a dragster.
2014-07-06T20:47:31Z dim: well I don't follow your analogy
2014-07-06T20:47:56Z dim: I won't teach random syntax to kids who want to have fun, that's for sure, so a lisp-like language is my choice
2014-07-06T20:48:32Z H4ns: dim: racket should be fine.
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2014-07-06T20:48:49Z dim: I guess I'll try
2014-07-06T20:50:36Z prxq: I think cl is ok for kids. I'd expect scheme to be more problematic.
2014-07-06T20:50:55Z prxq: they would have to learn a crappy style at first, but that's true for any language.
2014-07-06T20:51:06Z prxq: and unavoidable, to boot.
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2014-07-06T20:52:49Z Denommus: dim: KTurtle is also fine
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2014-07-06T20:53:07Z Denommus: prxq: CL is way more complex than Scheme
2014-07-06T20:53:14Z dim: I'm still at the console, and they don't program yet, I'm just preparing
2014-07-06T20:53:18Z stickittothemain: Is lisp good for writing compilers in?
2014-07-06T20:53:33Z stickittothemain: Are there any examples
2014-07-06T20:53:36Z Denommus: dim: Racket was created as an education language, so you should be fine with it
2014-07-06T20:53:45Z Denommus: stickittothemain: SBCL itself is written in CL
2014-07-06T20:53:59Z prxq: Denommus: depends on what you mean. you can get going using only some stuff, so the complexity does not matter.
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2014-07-06T20:54:10Z stickittothemain: Oh yeah!
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2014-07-06T20:54:43Z prxq: scheme might be simpler, but it is full of concepts that have to be meditated uppon first.
2014-07-06T20:55:00Z Denommus: prxq: besides continuations and recursion, what is so complex about Scheme?
2014-07-06T20:56:25Z stickittothemain: Which is better, SBCL or Clisp?
2014-07-06T20:56:29Z prxq: Denommus: these are two very heavyweight concepts.
2014-07-06T20:56:36Z prxq: stickittothemain: sbcl
2014-07-06T20:56:43Z stickittothemain: I thought so
2014-07-06T20:57:11Z Denommus: stickittothemain: clisp is mostly unmaintained nowadays, it's better to avoid using it. Besides, it's GPL, so it requires your code to also be GPL
2014-07-06T20:57:50Z Denommus: prxq: you aren't required to use continuations, though. And recursion is not that complex, people overrate its complexity
2014-07-06T20:57:55Z antoszka: Denommus: does it, really?
2014-07-06T20:58:15Z antoszka: (not that I'd insist on writing code in clisp, but never thought of that aspect)
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2014-07-06T20:59:08Z prxq: Denommus: I have some experience teaching totally green newbies, and I think I'll just disagree.
2014-07-06T20:59:34Z Denommus: antoszka: yes. If you link code with a GPL library, the code must be GPL'd, too
2014-07-06T21:00:01Z antoszka: Denommus: isn't "linking" a slippery/disputable concept here?
2014-07-06T21:00:04Z Krystof: it does no such thing
2014-07-06T21:00:10Z Denommus: prxq: oh, yes, adolescent and adult newbies totally get confused with recursion, I agree with you there
2014-07-06T21:00:27Z Denommus: antoszka: maybe
2014-07-06T21:00:28Z Krystof: if you _distribute_ a _derivative work_ of a GPL'd thing, you must GPL that derivative work
2014-07-06T21:00:44Z Denommus: Krystof: and the definition of derivative work in GPL involves linking :-)
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2014-07-06T21:01:39Z Denommus: prxq: but that's not an inherently difficult concept, it just needs some practice. And children absorb it more easily than most adults, because of the lack of prejudice
2014-07-06T21:01:58Z Krystof: the definition of "derivative work" in the licence is interesting but irrelevant: what matters is how the law deals with it
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2014-07-06T21:03:24Z Denommus: Krystof: of course, but in general people avoid using GPL libraries because of the license description, despite of how the law thinks about it
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2014-07-06T21:03:37Z Denommus: Krystof: I don't think there isn't any decision towards that anyway
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2014-07-06T21:17:12Z Shinmera: I thought the LGPL existed precisely because the GPL was problematic with libraries
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2014-07-06T21:20:39Z |3b|: is the default reader macro on #\( allowed to read past the closing #\) ?
2014-07-06T21:20:52Z |3b|: or is that not specified
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2014-07-06T21:22:05Z Denommus: Shinmera: yup
2014-07-06T21:22:42Z Denommus: Shinmera: but clisp links with readline
2014-07-06T21:22:49Z Denommus: Shinmera: so it must be GPL :-)
2014-07-06T21:23:29Z Shinmera: I really don't like that kind of "viral" feature
2014-07-06T21:24:12Z |3b|: Shinmera: it is particularly annoying when it infects IRC channels :/
2014-07-06T21:24:42Z Denommus: I understand why it exists, but I also don't like it
2014-07-06T21:25:00Z Shinmera: |3b|: heh
2014-07-06T21:25:01Z pjb: stickittothemain: CL (lisp) is the best language to write compiler in.  A lot of languages were INVENTED in lisp! (logo, scheme, smalltalk, dylan, ml, postgres, X windows, javascript, etc).
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2014-07-06T21:27:05Z |3b|: READ-DELIMITED-LIST sounds like it shouldn't read past the delimiter, not sure if #\( reader macro is specified that precisely though
2014-07-06T21:27:21Z Denommus: pjb: "the best" is an overstatement. But it is pretty great, indeed. A functional language may also work, though (e.g., Rust was bootstraped in OCaml)
2014-07-06T21:27:59Z pjb: Shinmera: the existance of LLGPL proves that the distinction LGPL and GPL make, technically, is not significant.  The intent of the LGPL is different from the GPL, but I'd argue that formally the distinctions around "linking" are not really valid.
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2014-07-06T21:28:34Z pjb: Basically, you can subvert the intent of the GPL by "avoiding" linking, in a way.
2014-07-06T21:28:48Z Shinmera: pjb: I know too little about both law and linking to make any comment on this.
2014-07-06T21:29:32Z kristof: pjb: Why do you say that compilers should be written in common lisp?
2014-07-06T21:29:35Z pjb: One funny example, would be what has been presented at the ELS2014 about calling lisp from python, ie. using lisp libraries.  No linking is involved.
2014-07-06T21:29:59Z pjb: kristof: I didn't say it, but I wouldn't want to write a compiler in any other language.
2014-07-06T21:30:36Z pjb: But then, I wouldn't want to write any program in any other language.  Lisp is too much fun.
2014-07-06T21:30:46Z kristof: I think I'd choose Ocaml or Standard ML, just because pattern matching and pipelining are so useful in compiler writing.
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2014-07-06T21:31:22Z pjb: You can use a pattern matching library in lisp.
2014-07-06T21:31:31Z kristof: Not that CL doesn't have those things, but expressing pattern matching just falls out so naturally in ML. Compare ML's syntax to Optima.
2014-07-06T21:31:58Z kristof: I know you can! And at the end of the day, the ability to do metaprogramming beats out syntax, I think.
2014-07-06T21:32:07Z pjb: yes.
2014-07-06T21:32:12Z kristof: So maybe you're right. I would probably prefer CL + Optima to ML.
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2014-07-06T21:32:40Z kristof: Also, if you've ever looked at MetaML, it's quite the... cludge. Lots of fuss.
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2014-07-06T21:38:15Z pjb: |3b|: read-delimited-list (as read), can read spaces or comments, beyond the final characters, IIRC.  Otherwise, read-delimited-list reads recursively, so it WILL read beyond the first delimiter, if it doesn't match the outer call.
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2014-07-06T21:40:10Z |3b|: pjb: "...and peeks at it as if with peek-char. If it is char, then the character is consumed and the list of objects is returned."
2014-07-06T21:40:32Z |3b|: sounds like it should see the #\) without consuming it, then consume it and immediately return without consuming anything else
2014-07-06T21:41:02Z |3b| is talking about the case where the outer call is matched
2014-07-06T21:41:09Z pjb: My bad, yes, it seems to be specified that way indeed.
2014-07-06T21:41:30Z |3b|: clhs 2.4.1
2014-07-06T21:41:31Z specbot: Left-Parenthesis: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_da.htm
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2014-07-06T21:41:56Z |3b|: the reader macro just says "read is called recursively" until #\) is "found"
2014-07-06T21:42:08Z |3b|: which might isn't nearly as specific
2014-07-06T21:42:19Z pjb: The reader macro CANNOT be implemented with read-delimited-list.
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2014-07-06T21:42:31Z pjb: read-delimited-list doesn't deal with dotted lists! :-)
2014-07-06T21:42:31Z pjb:  
2014-07-06T21:42:34Z |3b|: it could be READing the #\) as a reader macro, or whatever
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2014-07-06T21:43:05Z |3b|: right, was just using it for comparison
2014-07-06T21:43:27Z pjb: So I was remembering the reader macro. read-delimited-list is more strictly defined.
2014-07-06T21:44:41Z |3b| notes that sbcl doesn't skip comments after the #\), noly whitespace
2014-07-06T21:44:44Z |3b|: *only
2014-07-06T21:44:45Z kristof: Oh, you're talking about the hash-map read macro?
2014-07-06T21:44:49Z |3b|: and only 1 whitespace character
2014-07-06T21:45:06Z |3b| is talking about the standard reader macro on #\(, which reads lists
2014-07-06T21:45:15Z kristof: Oh, heh, enver mind.
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2014-07-06T22:01:42Z replcated: Trying to get sbcl 1.2.1 up on Debian Wheezy.  (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper)
2014-07-06T22:01:43Z replcated:  gives me  Symbol "CODE-TRACE-TABLE-OFFSET-SLOT" not found in the SB-VM package.
2014-07-06T22:01:43Z replcated:  
2014-07-06T22:02:23Z Shinmera: Gotta use slime from git or wait for the next ql release
2014-07-06T22:02:43Z replcated: Shinmera:  Thanks.  I'll give it a shot.
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2014-07-06T23:09:58Z Xach: 2.8 works fine too
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2014-07-07T00:35:54Z joe-w-bimedina: when i run m-x indent-region on code, if my commented lines don't have 2 semi-colons in front of them and just have one semi-colon they are moved all out of whack. is there a way to change this behavior in emacs
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2014-07-07T00:49:05Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: emacs indents comments according to the usual CL style, as described in http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_ddb.htm
2014-07-07T00:50:14Z |3b|: so even if you do reconfigure your emacs, expect it to annoy any other CL devs who might want to work in your code base
2014-07-07T00:51:42Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks,  yea the comments on the right looked so off to me, 2 semi-colons looks a little off too, is it bad practice to shirk these rules
2014-07-07T00:56:29Z |3b|: if you want to share code with other CL programmers, then getting used to looking at code the way they write it, and writing it the way they expect might be a good idea
2014-07-07T00:57:19Z joe-w-bimedina: ok seems cooler now that I know it is a lisp standard, thanks
2014-07-07T01:05:03Z pnpuff: It's only a coding convenction. I think the term standard it's sometime abused.
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2014-07-07T01:58:10Z joe-w-bimedina: is it possible to add a progn to this defmacro, I tried but it doesn't seem to work anywhere:   (defmacro $ (form &optional (count-form 1000000)) `(time (dotimes (_ ,count-form) ((lambda () ,form)))))
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2014-07-07T01:59:08Z joe-w-bimedina: so i can add multiple params without having to  add a specific progn, e.g as is , this works ($ (progn ...))
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2014-07-07T02:07:28Z dlowe: instead of ((lambda () ,form)), just do ,@form
2014-07-07T02:08:18Z dlowe: honestly, this doesn't really call for a macro at all
2014-07-07T02:09:30Z dlowe: I guess it'd be more convenient from the repl
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2014-07-07T02:12:29Z junxit: I think the ,@form works if you drop the otpional count-form and use &rest (defmacro $ (&rest form) ...
2014-07-07T02:12:49Z Bike: or &body.
2014-07-07T02:13:13Z junxit: yes, &body would be better
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2014-07-07T02:14:41Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry , was in the other room, I tried   (defmacro $ (form &optional (count-form 1000000)) `(time (dotimes (_ ,count-form) (,@form)))) and   (defmacro $ (form &optional (count-form 1000000)) `(time (dotimes (_ ,count-form) ,@form))) and still get the invalid nuber of elements in lambda list error?
2014-07-07T02:15:01Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec just saw the other reply
2014-07-07T02:15:27Z Bike: can you just read pcl or something, you're really missing out on fundaments here
2014-07-07T02:16:06Z joe-w-bimedina: just started today, i'm on chapter 2 already,  read it before, but am brushing up
2014-07-07T02:20:26Z joe-w-bimedina: need the count-form to be &optional so &body won't work like this  (defmacro $ (&body body &optional (count-form 1000000)) `(time (dotimes (_ ,count-form) ,@body)))
2014-07-07T02:21:27Z Bike: fuck &optional. do (defmacro $ (count-form &body body) ...), that's good enough
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2014-07-07T02:25:37Z loke: Remember also that you can be much more flexible with the argument layout in macros than functions.
2014-07-07T02:26:00Z loke: This will work: (defmacro $ (&optional count-form) &body body ...)
2014-07-07T02:26:11Z loke: I mean
2014-07-07T02:26:18Z loke: (defmacro $ ((&optional count-form) &body body) ...)
2014-07-07T02:33:16Z joe-w-bimedina: I need the count-form to be the last param in the lambda list, and this (defmacro $ ((&optional count-form) &body body) `(time (dotimes (_ ,count-form) ,@body)))  wont work,
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2014-07-07T02:43:26Z joe-w-bimedina: can someone just change this for me so it can accept multiple params without a progn,  it would have to have the lambda list in the same order though,  took a while to get it right in the first place
2014-07-07T02:43:31Z joe-w-bimedina:   (defmacro $ (form &optional (count-form 1000000)) `(time (dotimes (_ ,count-form) ((lambda () ,form)))))
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2014-07-07T02:44:04Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry if thats annoying it just seems kind of advanced to me
2014-07-07T02:45:51Z Bike: (defmacro $ ((&body forms) &optional (count-form 1000000)) `(time (dotimes (_ ,count-form) ,@forms))
2014-07-07T02:45:54Z Bike: but this is bad and dumb.
2014-07-07T02:46:16Z loke: Bike: Yes, that's so ugly I'm surprised you even suggested it :-)
2014-07-07T02:46:31Z Bike: joe has no idea what he's doing so he won't accept better options.
2014-07-07T02:46:39Z loke: A &body inside a parenthesed argument :-)
2014-07-07T02:47:32Z joe-w-bimedina: see I still get error while parsing arguments to DEFMACRO $:
2014-07-07T02:47:32Z joe-w-bimedina:   invalid number of elements in... with yours Bike, loke: i'll try that
2014-07-07T02:47:57Z Bike: if you don't show us how you invoked it we're not gonna know what you did wrong, jesus
2014-07-07T02:48:12Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec
2014-07-07T02:49:49Z joe-w-bimedina: I invoked like this: ($  (vec-3b)  (vec-3b)  (vec-3b) ) the vec-3b is a function to create an object.
2014-07-07T02:50:31Z Bike: it's in parens. try ($ ((vec-3b) (vec-3b) (vec-3b)))
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2014-07-07T02:50:44Z Bike: if you want the count after the forms for whatever stupid reason you'll have to do something like this to separate them.
2014-07-07T02:51:44Z joe-w-bimedina: really I was trying to get away from adding anything, that was my purpose in th efirst place was to not have to add a progn,  if its not possible to do that at least I won't feel dumb
2014-07-07T02:52:12Z Bike: The macro obviously has to have some way to know where the optional form is. c'mon. think.
2014-07-07T02:52:41Z joe-w-bimedina: I was hoping for some sort of genius solution, I knew the pitfalls
2014-07-07T02:53:01Z joe-w-bimedina: not tied to a macro though
2014-07-07T02:53:19Z joe-w-bimedina: but form must come first and count-form needs to be &optional
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2014-07-07T02:56:44Z joe-w-bimedina: the reason the count-forms must come after is because it needs to default to 1000000
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2014-07-07T02:59:35Z joe-w-bimedina: I really do thank everyone for their help on this
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2014-07-07T03:01:28Z joe-w-bimedina: Bike: thank you very much for your time, that does save me typing progn which is a big help:)
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2014-07-07T03:07:36Z Guthur`: joe-w-bimedina: that's is a little crufty
2014-07-07T03:07:48Z Guthur`: joe-w-bimedina: try swapping the body and count around
2014-07-07T03:09:18Z joe-w-bimedina: i which version,  here is my best success so far (defmacro $ ((&body forms) &optional (count-form 1000000)) `(time (dotimes (_ ,count-form) ,@forms))),  I just have to make it so I don't even need the parentheses to run, I'm curious as to if it could be done
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2014-07-07T03:11:31Z Guthur`: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143111
2014-07-07T03:11:42Z Guthur`: joe-w-bimedina ^
2014-07-07T03:11:56Z Guthur`: also notice the gensym, to make it a little more hygenic
2014-07-07T03:13:11Z Guthur`: but anyway, why is this even a macro
2014-07-07T03:13:51Z joe-w-bimedina: I really appreciate your efforts but I don't really have to waste your time if this is not posible, to run like ($ (vec-3b))....it doesn't have to be
2014-07-07T03:14:28Z Guthur`: but why does it have to run like that
2014-07-07T03:14:41Z Guthur`: you are writing the program you can make it run how you wish
2014-07-07T03:15:55Z joe-w-bimedina: I would love to have it exactly that way, as a programmer i would like to have no bounds and I like to see what I can make lisp do,  no pressure, this can just be my holy grail
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2014-07-07T03:18:12Z Guthur`: you can do whatever you want does not make it correct. You could do crazy stuff like check if the first element in the &body is a integer and then set count to that
2014-07-07T03:18:17Z Guthur`: don't do that though
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2014-07-07T03:20:03Z joe-w-bimedina: yeah if someone wanted to time integers it would break,  could you do this?
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2014-07-07T03:23:21Z Guthur`: you could time an integer, not sure what it would mean
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2014-07-07T03:23:53Z joe-w-bimedina: i did once for fun
2014-07-07T03:23:59Z Guthur`: was it 0
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2014-07-07T03:24:46Z joe-w-bimedina:  0.318 seconds of real time for 1000,000,000
2014-07-07T03:25:00Z joe-w-bimedina: I time everything I make
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2014-07-07T03:25:57Z Guthur`: was that in the dotimes
2014-07-07T03:26:44Z Guthur`: anyway, have fun
2014-07-07T03:26:55Z joe-w-bimedina: yea but everything is so it balances out, you too
2014-07-07T03:27:22Z inklesspen: dammit, updated sbcl and now I can't run swank (because quicklisp doesn't have swank 2.8 yet)
2014-07-07T03:29:36Z pjb: inklesspen: update to clisp: stable for more than one year!
2014-07-07T03:29:51Z inklesspen: no thanks.
2014-07-07T03:29:59Z pjb: have fun!
2014-07-07T03:30:04Z inklesspen: will do
2014-07-07T03:31:00Z inklesspen rolls back the update.
2014-07-07T03:31:13Z pjb: pfft!
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2014-07-07T03:34:38Z inklesspen: problem solved
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2014-07-07T05:12:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-07-07T05:12:55Z joe-w-bimedina: good morning
2014-07-07T05:13:20Z phadthai: hello
2014-07-07T05:13:56Z beach: Who told me SSA and CPS are equivalent?  Was it p_l?
2014-07-07T05:14:14Z drmeister: beach: Remember when you showed me that paper that you were writing on the SICL AST?
2014-07-07T05:14:22Z Bicyclidine: well, i've heard as much.
2014-07-07T05:14:27Z beach: drmeister: Yes, I remember.
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2014-07-07T05:15:08Z drmeister: I deleted it immediately when you told me it wasn't finished - but it's stuck in my mind.   Did you come up with the structure of the AST from whole cloth or did you derive it from something else?
2014-07-07T05:15:15Z beach: There is indeed a paper that shows how to translate between the two, but the CPS in that paper does not handle assignments.
2014-07-07T05:15:26Z Bicyclidine: there's http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.3.6773 i see
2014-07-07T05:15:44Z beach: Bicyclidine: Yes, but it is a very restricted form of CPS.
2014-07-07T05:16:22Z beach: drmeister: You should find it in the SICL repository.  In the subdirectory Code/Cleavir/Documentation/
2014-07-07T05:16:47Z beach: drmeister: I don't think I derived it from anything else.
2014-07-07T05:17:22Z drmeister: Perhaps the question - "was it inspired by any other Common Lisp AST" would be more appropriate.
2014-07-07T05:17:29Z beach: drmeister: It is designed to be customizable.
2014-07-07T05:17:43Z beach: drmeister: The answer to that question is "no".
2014-07-07T05:18:05Z beach: drmeister: But I don't think there are so many possibilities.
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2014-07-07T05:18:31Z beach: drmeister: Though, maybe others have representations for LET and such.  I don't.
2014-07-07T05:19:22Z drmeister: Yes, that was the part that stuck with me.  I was thinking the AST would 1:1 correspond to the special forms.   You didn't do that - I wanted to dig some more into why not.
2014-07-07T05:20:02Z beach: drmeister: The Cleavir AST is supposed to have been derived using the implementation's own environment, and variables should have unique ASTs.  The reason is that environments are so implementation specific.
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2014-07-07T05:21:17Z drmeister: True - CL environments were the hardest part to get right.  I thought they were the least well described aspect of Common Lisp and one of the most important.
2014-07-07T05:21:29Z beach: I agree.
2014-07-07T05:21:50Z beach: They are not describe in the CLHS because the representation is up to the implementation.
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2014-07-07T05:25:32Z beach: By defining an implementation-neutral AST, I was hoping that it could be used by several implementations.
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2014-07-07T05:26:57Z beach: drmeister: But you were using ECL, right?  I would imagine that aspect would already have been taken care of by ECL.  No?
2014-07-07T05:28:17Z p_l: beach: https://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/suresh/502.../kelsey-ssa-cps.pdf <--- IIRC, this paper is the origin of CPS/SSA equivalence
2014-07-07T05:28:20Z Bike: i remember somebody in here had problems with ecl environments once, because they had a macro with something like (foo ,bar), bar being an environment, and they got weird evaluation errors; and it turned out that ecl's environments were just alists.
2014-07-07T05:28:23Z drmeister: No - I use ECL Common Lisp source code - and not any of the compiler.
2014-07-07T05:28:51Z beach: p_l: I think that's the one I just read.
2014-07-07T05:28:53Z drmeister: I don't use ECL environments at all.
2014-07-07T05:29:06Z beach: drmeister: I see.
2014-07-07T05:29:19Z drmeister: I implemented my environments in C++.
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2014-07-07T05:29:46Z beach: p_l: I think the problem is that there is no consensus as to what is allowed in CPS.
2014-07-07T05:30:06Z beach: p_l: The CPS descriptions I have read sweep assignments under the rug.
2014-07-07T05:30:28Z Bike: well, they're mostly used in stuff without assignments, aren't they
2014-07-07T05:30:40Z Bike: ocaml or whatnot
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2014-07-07T05:31:02Z beach: Bike: They were designed for Scheme I think.
2014-07-07T05:31:50Z beach: Anyway, stassats said a while ago that the SBCL CPS does not handle assignments very well.
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2014-07-07T05:32:28Z Bike: i think it fucks up the type propagation
2014-07-07T05:32:29Z beach: I think the essence is that CPS was not designed for it, and if you remove assignments, then CPS is indeed equivalent to SSA.
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2014-07-07T05:33:34Z beach: Bike: Yes, of course.  If you don't have assignments, you essentially have SSA, so each variable is assigned to exactly once.   With assignments, the type of the variable can change arbitrarily.
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2014-07-07T05:35:00Z beach: So in Cleavir, I translate the AST to MIR which handles assignments as usual.  Then I convert the MIR to SSA.  Only after that do I do type inference.
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2014-07-07T05:35:24Z p_l: well, the very idea of SSA is to transform every assignment into a new binding, which has interesting properties in itself
2014-07-07T05:35:45Z beach: Indeed.
2014-07-07T05:36:00Z beach: For one thing, every "version" of the variable is preserved.
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2014-07-07T05:39:55Z beach: Bottom line, now I think CPS is not adapted to CL because CL is not very functional.  Might as well use flow-graph representation and SSA.  That way, existing optimization algorithms can be used directly, such as partial redundancy elimination, value numbering, etc.
2014-07-07T05:41:29Z beach: One more reason: CPS is defined in terms of nested functions or nested lambda expressions.  Those don't lend themselves to generic dispatch.  And if you replace the CPS components with standard objects, you are basically back to a flow graph representation.
2014-07-07T05:41:36Z Zhivago: I'm not sure what CPS has to do with being functional.
2014-07-07T05:42:22Z Zhivago: CPS is defined in terms of continuations. Why don't these lend themselves to generic dispatch?
2014-07-07T05:42:28Z beach: Zhivago: Right.  It doesn't.  But then all interesting results assume that the CPS used does not have side effects.
2014-07-07T05:42:37Z Zhivago: I don't think that's true.
2014-07-07T05:42:45Z Zhivago: Unless you're confusing continuation with time-travel.
2014-07-07T05:43:00Z beach: Yeah, that must be the case.  Sorry about that.
2014-07-07T05:43:46Z Zhivago: Not that I'm advocating CPS, particularly.
2014-07-07T05:46:05Z Zhivago: There are probably good reasons not to use CPS there, it's just the ones that you've provided don't seem to be applicable.
2014-07-07T05:46:17Z beach: OK.
2014-07-07T05:46:33Z Zhivago: As far as I'm aware CPS and SSA are equivalent.
2014-07-07T05:46:44Z beach: Good for you.
2014-07-07T05:47:53Z zRecursive: CPS:Contiuation Passing Style ?  SSA ???
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2014-07-07T05:48:03Z beach: Static Single Assignment.
2014-07-07T05:48:19Z zRecursive: thanks
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2014-07-07T05:50:49Z nisstyre: Zhivago: it depends on your CPS language
2014-07-07T05:50:58Z nisstyre: Zhivago: SSA and CPS are very similar, though
2014-07-07T05:51:24Z nisstyre: CPS does make every intermediate value explicit like SSA
2014-07-07T05:52:31Z nisstyre: beach: you're wrong about CPS being defined in terms of nested lambdas
2014-07-07T05:52:38Z nisstyre: that's *one* possible representation
2014-07-07T05:52:58Z nisstyre: I recommend reading Appel's Compiling with Continuations for more info
2014-07-07T05:53:10Z beach: nisstyre: Will do.  Thanks.
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2014-07-07T05:56:24Z zRecursive: Does Scheme implement CPS perfectly(call/cc) ?
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2014-07-07T05:56:56Z Bike: they're talking about CPS as a compiler intermediate, not user call/cc
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2014-07-07T05:57:26Z zRecursive: oh
2014-07-07T05:57:48Z nisstyre: what I'm talking about is translating to a form that describes everything in terms of continuations
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2014-07-07T05:57:58Z nisstyre: that can be more easily translated to assembly code, or whatever you want
2014-07-07T05:57:58Z Zhivago: zrecursive: It depends on what you mean by 'perfectly', but it permits call/cc pervasively -- you can capture the continuation of argument binding, for example.
2014-07-07T05:58:18Z zRecursive: ok
2014-07-07T05:58:28Z Zhivago: (Although it isn't particularly useful, since argument binding order is undefined)
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2014-07-07T05:59:25Z nisstyre: zRecursive: you can think of a continuation as the next step in any given computation, and you can imagine that it gets "fed" the previous value computed and can make use of it
2014-07-07T05:59:47Z nisstyre: a common notation is something like 1 + [.] where [.] = the current continuation
2014-07-07T06:01:02Z nisstyre: so continuations show up in every programming language, not just lisp or scheme
2014-07-07T06:02:16Z Bike: once i described CPS and call/cc to a non-programmer friend and he concluded call/cc was a "hack" to avoid writing in CPS yourself, it was amusing
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2014-07-07T06:06:32Z zRecursive: The Continuation in Scheme looks like a lambda ?
2014-07-07T06:07:11Z zRecursive: After getting it, we can call it
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2014-07-07T06:08:29Z zRecursive: directly
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2014-07-07T06:11:13Z nisstyre: zRecursive: it looks like a procedure, but it's not
2014-07-07T06:11:29Z nisstyre: zRecursive: continuations differ from procedures because they never return
2014-07-07T06:11:35Z nisstyre: (at least non-delimited ones)
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2014-07-07T06:17:34Z nisstyre: zRecursive: notice how we have to supply a function that returns (displayln) http://ideone.com/qojljv
2014-07-07T06:17:45Z nisstyre: otherwise it would never return, we would have to keep supplying continuations
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2014-07-07T06:26:03Z zRecursive: nisstyre: i see now
2014-07-07T06:26:40Z nisstyre: zRecursive: okay I hope that makes sense. I've been meaning to do a writeup on continuations for a while (on my neglected blog)
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2014-07-07T06:27:15Z zRecursive: URL ?
2014-07-07T06:27:38Z zRecursive: blog url
2014-07-07T06:28:54Z nisstyre: zRecursive: I only have one post up so far, but https://primop.me/blog
2014-07-07T06:29:03Z nisstyre: it's about open wifi acess
2014-07-07T06:29:05Z nisstyre: *access
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2014-07-07T06:30:27Z zRecursive: ok
2014-07-07T06:30:49Z nisstyre: zRecursive: yeah, I'm probably going to do another post soon :p
2014-07-07T06:31:08Z nisstyre: I was thinking of doing it about how you compile closures though
2014-07-07T06:31:14Z nisstyre: but maybe continuations would be better
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2014-07-07T07:13:32Z joe-w-bimedina:  I have this C++ operator I am wrapping in C then in CFFI, it works iI have this C++ operator I am wrapping in C then in CFFI, it works in C but it does not work wrapped in CFFI.  I made a gist of some relevant info, here https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/0344574b369cdb57ffa8: if anyone could give me advice on debugging I would be very grateful.
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2014-07-07T07:39:31Z joe-w-bimedina: is there a defined cffi type I use to represent a c_string? or do I create my own?
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2014-07-07T07:41:55Z Bike: a char*, probably, but that ain't a std::String ofc
2014-07-07T07:42:15Z Bike: oh, a :string type too, probably an alias
2014-07-07T07:42:16Z joe-w-bimedina: never mind, didn't notice it was typedef as char*,  sorry about that:)
2014-07-07T07:42:24Z phadthai: possibly c_char_p or c_wchar_p
2014-07-07T07:43:03Z joe-w-bimedina: missed this in the code typedef char* c_string;
2014-07-07T07:43:05Z Bike: http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Other-Types.html#Other-Types
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2014-07-07T07:52:07Z joe-w-bimedina: does anyone here ever have success wapping c++ operators eg here: template<typename _Tp> void operator>>(const FileNode& n, _Tp& value) in C then in Lisp?
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2014-07-07T09:31:40Z enfors: Common Lisp question: What's the simplest way to loop until a list is empty? I thought (while my-list <body>) would work, but apparently not.
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2014-07-07T09:32:37Z joe-w-bimedina: (dotimes (n (length list))...)
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2014-07-07T09:33:10Z enfors: But I want to loop until the list is empty - within the loop's body, I intend to remove items from the list (under some conditions)
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2014-07-07T09:33:17Z Stanislav: (while my-list <body>) should work, too, if you implement while correctly
2014-07-07T09:33:33Z Stanislav: generally, there's a lot of possibilities
2014-07-07T09:34:00Z Stanislav: which one you choose is up to you
2014-07-07T09:34:30Z Stanislav: e. g. (do (...) ((null my-list) blah-blah) (... (pop my-list)))
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2014-07-07T09:37:25Z enfors: Hmm, that should work, thanks.
2014-07-07T09:38:26Z enfors: I must say thought, I'm very surprised that (while my-list) doesn't work. Even (while nil) returns an "Undefined function while" error. I would have thought that it'd just return right away (since nil is an empty list).
2014-07-07T09:38:54Z Stanislav: yeah, because while is undefined :)
2014-07-07T09:39:09Z Stanislav: it isn't a standard macro
2014-07-07T09:39:17Z Stanislav: but it's easy to implement it
2014-07-07T09:39:29Z enfors: Apparently so. Emacs does give it a special color in the code though, but perhaps that's for some other reason.
2014-07-07T09:39:56Z enfors: I guess this is my que to dive into writing simple macros...
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2014-07-07T09:42:51Z Stanislav: http://pastebin.com/i3XAzMwT
2014-07-07T09:42:54Z mal_: instead of that dotimes, you can use (dolist (x l) ...) or (loop for x in l ...)
2014-07-07T09:43:00Z Stanislav: while and awhile from On Lisp
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2014-07-07T09:43:37Z Stanislav: awhile also implicitly bounds IT to the current value of the iterator (hence a- for "anaphoric")
2014-07-07T09:43:52Z Stanislav: s/bounds/binds/
2014-07-07T09:45:24Z enfors: Hmm...
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2014-07-07T09:46:48Z enfors: Wow, thanks for the macros!
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2014-07-07T09:53:27Z enfors: Next question :-) Is there something similar to (push my-item my-list) that adds my-item to the END of my-list, instead of the beginning?
2014-07-07T09:53:34Z beach: Be careful, it is undefined behavior to alter a list while looping over it with certain constructs.
2014-07-07T09:53:52Z enfors: Oh reall? Good to know, thanks.
2014-07-07T09:54:00Z enfors: s/reall/really/
2014-07-07T09:54:01Z rudi: enfors: adding items to the end gets slower as your list gets longer, are you sure you want to do that?
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2014-07-07T09:54:14Z rudi: if so, use append
2014-07-07T09:54:16Z rudi: clhs append
2014-07-07T09:54:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_append.htm
2014-07-07T09:54:17Z beach: enfors: Generally speaking, you don't want to add to the end of the list.
2014-07-07T09:54:48Z beach: rudi: Long time no see.  I understand you are in Norway now, right?
2014-07-07T09:54:54Z rudi: yes, indeed :)
2014-07-07T09:55:06Z Stanislav: enfors: the collect clause of loop, but push/nreverse is often ok
2014-07-07T09:55:12Z rudi: enfors: you might want to add to the front of your list and at the end call reverse before returning it
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2014-07-07T09:55:39Z Stanislav: enfors: surely you don't wont to alter a list you are e. g. DOLISTing :)
2014-07-07T09:55:48Z Stanislav: wont => want
2014-07-07T09:55:51Z rudi: beach: I’m sitting at university of oslo
2014-07-07T09:55:56Z enfors: Well, it's either that or processing the list in reverse order; as a learning example, I'm making a small flashcard script. If the user gets a question wrong, I want to re-add the question to the *end* of the list, so that s/he has to re-answer it once s/he's done answering all other questions.
2014-07-07T09:56:11Z beach: rudi: Yes, I Googled you some time ago, so I know :)
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2014-07-07T09:57:14Z beach: enfors: As long as the loop is an interaction with a user, and the list is no more than a few million items, you should be fine. :)
2014-07-07T09:58:18Z enfors: I know. I'm guessing the problem you're referring to is that lists are implemented as linked lists in c, which means it has to process the list from the start each time to find the end, making it slow to access the last item (or append to the end)?
2014-07-07T09:58:33Z beach: Right.
2014-07-07T09:58:48Z Stanislav: ah
2014-07-07T09:59:15Z Stanislav: you could something like model a queue with cons-cells e. g. with two pointers
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2014-07-07T09:59:29Z Stanislav: one model even has a dedicated name
2014-07-07T09:59:31Z enfors: So since I'm using flashcards entered by the user, with probably not more than a few hundred cards tops, it shouldn't be a problem. Nevertheless, you make a good point and since this is a learning experience for me I'd rather make it work even if there were millions of items in the list.
2014-07-07T09:59:38Z Stanislav: i don't remember
2014-07-07T09:59:54Z beach: enfors: To avoid the modify-while-traverse problem, you could use (loop for rest = list then (cdr rest) until (null rest) do ...)
2014-07-07T10:00:29Z enfors: beach: thanks.
2014-07-07T10:00:32Z brucem: beach: do you have a couple of minutes to talk via PM?
2014-07-07T10:00:42Z beach: brucem: Sure.
2014-07-07T10:00:59Z enfors: I gotta go to lunch, thanks for the help everybody.
2014-07-07T10:01:07Z beach: enfors: Anytime! :)
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2014-07-07T10:52:13Z rick-monster: y
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2014-07-07T11:21:48Z rick-monster: loz2, stassats - have been hacking on calispel & eager-future for message-passing concurrency on my project.  Couldn't tell you if these libraries are really 'lightweight' - but they have been working out well for me so far!
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2014-07-07T12:01:17Z Xach: Cool, seems that sbcl and opticl play well together again
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2014-07-07T14:05:46Z enfors: Could someone take a look at these 8 lines of Lisp, and tell me what's wrong? http://pastebin.com/Qm44WdxY#
2014-07-07T14:06:32Z enfors: Something simple I'm sure. Looks like I put in one argument somewhere, where I'm supposed to put in two. But I can't figure out where.
2014-07-07T14:07:59Z Zhivago: Why do you have (menu)?
2014-07-07T14:08:10Z stassats: enfors: (menu-num-items) is missing an argument
2014-07-07T14:08:17Z eudoxia: enfors: you're calling menu-num-items with zero arguments
2014-07-07T14:08:23Z enfors: Oh right.
2014-07-07T14:08:39Z enfors: See, thing is, I *know* I'm an idiot, but I keep forgetting.
2014-07-07T14:08:48Z stassats: but that's a bug in ccl
2014-07-07T14:08:54Z enfors: Also, I'd say the error message *could* be a little more helpful...
2014-07-07T14:09:48Z eudoxia: SBCL reported what i said basically
2014-07-07T14:09:57Z stassats: i'll open a ticket
2014-07-07T14:10:01Z enfors: I'm using ccl...
2014-07-07T14:10:29Z enfors: Wait, I don't understand - what's a bug in ccl?
2014-07-07T14:10:51Z stassats: what you showed
2014-07-07T14:11:12Z enfors: How was me missing an argument to my own function a bug in ccl?
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2014-07-07T14:11:50Z enfors: (It's evaluating just fine now, thanks everybody)
2014-07-07T14:12:08Z stassats: because it needs to expect that and report an appropriate error
2014-07-07T14:12:46Z enfors: Oh, you mean it's a bug that it didn't produce a more specific error message?
2014-07-07T14:13:23Z stassats: well, the bug is that it broke down before it could do so
2014-07-07T14:13:32Z enfors: I see.
2014-07-07T14:13:47Z eudoxia: reporting "can't destructure lambda list" instead of "called with zero arguments, expects 2" is kind of a bug
2014-07-07T14:14:31Z stassats: i opened  http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/1207
2014-07-07T14:14:36Z enfors: I've come to expect not understanding many error messages I get from ccl...
2014-07-07T14:14:46Z enfors: Cool, thanks
2014-07-07T14:15:03Z ggole: (setf place (append place ...)) suggests that a vector would be a better data structure
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2014-07-07T14:15:56Z stassats: enfors: you could try (defun a (x) x) (defun b () (a)), you will see a clear error and slime can highlight the offending form
2014-07-07T14:16:29Z enfors: Oh, right, the other day I noticed Slime highlighting an error for me, had never seen that before...
2014-07-07T14:18:19Z enfors: ggole: Thanks, I'm still learning how to get Lisp to do *anything* at all, I'm not quite at the stage where I try to make things optimal yet. But nevertheless, thanks, I see that you're right (because as I understand it, a vector is more like a "void foo[]" type thing in C, whereas a list is a linked list in C - correct?)
2014-07-07T14:18:51Z ggole: That's right, but the advantage is not just efficiency. The code should be clearer, too.
2014-07-07T14:20:19Z enfors: (well whaddyaknow, the code not only successfully evaluates now, it even works.)
2014-07-07T14:20:32Z enfors: ggole: I'll look into it, thanks.
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2014-07-07T14:21:53Z ggole: Have a look at vector-push-extend.
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2014-07-07T14:24:03Z enfors: Right - but in other parts of my code, I want to remove all the items one by one from the beginning of the list (pop cards), which to me sounds more reasonable with a list than with a vector... ?
2014-07-07T14:24:47Z Shinmera: there's vector-pop too
2014-07-07T14:25:12Z ggole: Ah, vector isn't great for remove-from-front.
2014-07-07T14:25:25Z enfors: But wouldn't that be ineffective, with a long vector? Doesn't it have to memcpy() (in C) the entire rest of the list, or something?
2014-07-07T14:25:53Z enfors: I have a feeling vector-pop would pop at the end?
2014-07-07T14:25:55Z Shinmera: vector-push appends to the end, vector-pop removes from the end
2014-07-07T14:25:56Z ggole: vector-pop and vector-push{-extend} are amortized operations
2014-07-07T14:26:29Z ggole: So there's no efficiency problem with them: but that doesn't help if you want the operation to occur at the other end.
2014-07-07T14:26:50Z stassats: the only efficiency problem is that they are slow
2014-07-07T14:26:53Z enfors: Now that I think of it, pushing / popping at the end instead of at the beginning isn't really a problem, because I can just process the entire vector backwards anyway... hmm...
2014-07-07T14:28:14Z enfors: Lesson learned: Consider what operations I'll be performing on my data, *before* I select data types. I tend to just go with lists out of habit...
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2014-07-07T14:31:06Z Xach: it's ok to start with lists, but it also helps to not lock in by using the operations directly, so you can use more appropriate structures underneath later.
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2014-07-07T14:37:08Z enfors: Right. Abstraction is good. But as for right now, I'm trying to keep things as simple as possible (because I manage to mess them up anyway). When I've learned more, I intend to take such considerations into account. For now, I'll just code something simple - anything - for practice.
2014-07-07T14:37:36Z Zhivago: It's always simplest to have type specific operators.
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2014-07-07T14:37:57Z Zhivago: e.g., (defun foo-bar (foo) (car foo)) may be appropriate.
2014-07-07T14:38:19Z enfors nods.
2014-07-07T14:38:22Z Zhivago: Then your code will have (foo-bar x) rather than (car x) and you can slot in another datastructure by redefinition.
2014-07-07T14:38:37Z enfors: Right.
2014-07-07T14:38:53Z enfors: That's how I'd do it in any other language (that I already know).
2014-07-07T14:39:30Z Zhivago: That's how you should do it in lisp, too. :)
2014-07-07T14:40:10Z enfors: I know, but I don't think it's worth it right now, because I'm only making throw-away junk for practice.
2014-07-07T14:40:15Z Xach: I tend to use generic functions quickly in design, but :type list in defstruct is a quick way to get accessors too.
2014-07-07T14:40:41Z enfors: Interesting. That's the kind of thing I haven't delved into yet.
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2014-07-07T14:41:15Z enfors: So by accessors, you mean it automatically produces functions for me to access data, functions which I can redefine later if I want to?
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2014-07-07T14:42:41Z Xach: yes to automatically, no to redefine later -- structures aren't great for runtime redefinition.
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2014-07-07T14:43:35Z Xach: "later" can mean a lot of things, though.
2014-07-07T14:43:39Z Xach: (so can "redefine")
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2014-07-07T14:44:06Z enfors: Well... hmm... (trying to explain what I mean, but realising I have to figure out what I mean first)
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2014-07-07T14:44:55Z nicdev is learning to use generic functions and defclass for prototyping instea
2014-07-07T14:45:13Z enfors: I'm not talking about runtime. I'm talking, I guess, about if I in the future decide that I want to have an additional operation performed whenever I, say, add something to a list (perhaps I want to keep a log, or something)
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2014-07-07T14:45:48Z enfors: I tried generic functions and defmethods, but reverted back to defstructure and defmethod. Currently, I don't know if what I'm doing is OOP or not :-)
2014-07-07T14:46:14Z Shinmera: Maybe you should read through PCL
2014-07-07T14:46:22Z oleo: is there any limiting factor to converting an arbitrary list to say a binary-tree ?
2014-07-07T14:46:24Z enfors: I am.
2014-07-07T14:47:06Z Shinmera: I don't recall it covering structs, but it does explain generic functions, methods and classes nicely.
2014-07-07T14:47:10Z enfors: Shinmera: I got frustrated with the two OOP chapters in PCL though, because there were no actual runnable examples. No 50 line "mini applications" to try.
2014-07-07T14:47:36Z enfors: But I just finished reading them.
2014-07-07T14:47:38Z Cymew: enfors: Take a look at the last chapter of Graham's ANSI Common Lisp. It says a lot about what's OOP and not
2014-07-07T14:47:57Z enfors: Cymew: I'll look into that, thanks.
2014-07-07T14:48:04Z stassats: listening to Graham about OOP? really?
2014-07-07T14:48:15Z Shinmera: enfors: Can't really tell you anything then since I don't quite know what you want to know / are confused about
2014-07-07T14:48:25Z Cymew: I found that chapter to be really enlightening
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2014-07-07T14:48:53Z enfors: Shinmera: I appreciate that, I wasn't really asking for information, just pointing out that I'm confused. Sorry if I was unclear =)
2014-07-07T14:48:53Z Cymew: Fileld with his really annoying abbreviated function names and suchlike, but the ideas are solid
2014-07-07T14:49:16Z Shinmera: enfors: I'd like to help clear the confusion, but again I don't quite know what it is you're confused about
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2014-07-07T14:49:49Z enfors: Shinmera: That's really nice of you. Let's see if I can find the code I was trying to get to run...
2014-07-07T14:50:18Z Cymew: Then you can read Sonya Keene and be enlightened about CLOS. ;)
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2014-07-07T14:51:35Z enfors: Hmm. If I already have something defined under the name "card" in my Lisp.... thingy, how do I "undefine" so I can define it as something else again?
2014-07-07T14:51:51Z stassats: just defined it
2014-07-07T14:51:53Z stassats: define
2014-07-07T14:52:16Z enfors: Right, it's giving me errors though, about classes, subclasses and whatnot.
2014-07-07T14:52:38Z enfors: I'll just restart Slime (or something) so I can clear everything out I guess...
2014-07-07T14:52:55Z Zhivago: There are protocols for class redefinition.
2014-07-07T14:53:10Z Zhivago: What is it that you are redefining?
2014-07-07T14:54:10Z enfors: I had a struct called card, but now I wanted to define a class called card. Never mind, I restarted slime so it works now. Thanks though.
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2014-07-07T14:55:41Z Zhivago: Yeah. If you want to redefine stuff, stick with defclass -- defstruct doesn't support redefinition.
2014-07-07T14:56:17Z Cymew: I just tried in sbcl, and got a restart that offered to do it, with warnings.
2014-07-07T14:56:35Z Cymew: But, yeah. Defclass is what you want in that case
2014-07-07T14:56:36Z enfors: Right - I have two separate files with two versions of my mini project - one called card.lisp, and one called card-clos.lisp. I was switching from one to the other, which was giving me problems.
2014-07-07T14:56:57Z enfors: (my clos version uses defclass, the other one defstruct)
2014-07-07T14:57:17Z Xach: What's the fix for someone who can't speak on #lisp? moore33 is cruelly muted :(
2014-07-07T14:57:30Z Shinmera: Isn't p_l responsible for that?
2014-07-07T14:57:42Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
2014-07-07T14:57:45Z Xach: Yes. I have sent him a private message but I'm impatient, and maybe someone else knows too.
2014-07-07T14:58:05Z Shinmera: I don't recall him speaking about it, so I can't say, sorry
2014-07-07T14:58:20Z p_l: the fix is to call /mode +e <nick>
2014-07-07T14:58:29Z ChanServ has set mode -o p_l
2014-07-07T14:58:30Z Xach: p_l: thanks
2014-07-07T14:58:41Z Xach: moore33: speak friend and enter!
2014-07-07T14:58:54Z moore33: moore33: Phew!
2014-07-07T14:58:59Z p_l: that said, I was semi-hopeful about removing the +q masks, only to see the very same bot enter #go-nuts few days ago :|
2014-07-07T14:59:04Z enfors: moore33: This is the part where you're supposed to say "mellom"
2014-07-07T14:59:17Z moore33 is even talking to himself in his distress.
2014-07-07T14:59:27Z p_l: enfors: wasn't it "mellon", with #\n at the end?
2014-07-07T14:59:42Z enfors: p_l: Probably =)
2014-07-07T15:00:18Z moore33: Xach:I actually had a question above, when opticl was mentioned: do you have a sense of the current hotness in CL image loading libraries?
2014-07-07T15:00:31Z Xach: moore33: I think I would try opticl first
2014-07-07T15:00:34Z moore33: beach:You missed all my observations on CLIMatis :)
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2014-07-07T15:00:44Z moore33: Xach: OK.
2014-07-07T15:00:46Z Xach: moore33: but I don't think there is much that is hot in that area
2014-07-07T15:00:52Z Xach: there is a great opportunity
2014-07-07T15:01:32Z moore33 is looking to go from images to OpenGL textures, but doesn't want to spend his whole life in ffi land.
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2014-07-07T15:20:44Z rick-monster: Have been messing around with distributed data analysis in common lisp (sbcl) and have a small (largely idle) server farm at my disposal to mess with.  *think* I want to set up a distributed jobworker system where s-expressions are passed to/from machines over bare sockets in order to define the work and results.  Have this weird feeling either that this is a bad idea, or that there must be an existing library which I've missed. Anyone able to offer
2014-07-07T15:21:17Z H4ns: rick-monster: http://www.cliki.net/philip-jose
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2014-07-07T15:21:45Z ck_: stassats: how strict are you concerning slime patches? Do you insist on pull requests for everything or will you also consider patch files for really small changes?
2014-07-07T15:21:51Z H4ns: rick-monster: never tried it, though, so i can't comment on how useable it is.
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2014-07-07T15:28:02Z brown`: rick-monster: Existing libraries ... swank-client and swank-crew.
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2014-07-07T15:31:38Z brown`: They use Slime's Swank protocol to pass s-expressions from a master Lisp to a set of worker Lisps.  The benefit is that all workers can be debugged from one Slime connection to the master.
2014-07-07T15:32:47Z rick-monster: thanks brown - excited to try this out!
2014-07-07T15:33:15Z pjb: enfors: (loop :while list :do (sometimes (setf list (remove-something list))))
2014-07-07T15:34:01Z pjb: enfors: or: (use-package :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility) (while list (sometimes (setf list (remove-something list))))
2014-07-07T15:34:16Z pjb: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum) first.
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2014-07-07T15:55:48Z Xach: brown`: hello!
2014-07-07T15:56:20Z stassats: ck_: i'm not concerning myself with slime patches
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2014-07-07T15:57:10Z stassats: unless something is really broken
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2014-07-07T15:58:13Z ck_: this means I have become the victim of misinformation (!!1~ etc)
2014-07-07T15:58:20Z ck_: thanks though ;)
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2014-07-07T15:59:54Z Xach: rick-monster: i would try lfarm. it is based on lparallel, which is very nice.
2014-07-07T16:00:29Z stassats: but for any maintainer, a pull request is easier to deal with
2014-07-07T16:01:09Z stassats: though there isn't much difference with am formatted patches for me
2014-07-07T16:01:24Z Xach: brown`: some of your projects don't seem to work well on clisp and ecl. anton vodonosov made report about it a while ago.
2014-07-07T16:01:42Z Xach: brown`: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-test-grid/ql/qlalpha-2014-05-24-diff2.html -- i don't really understand what it means, sorry.
2014-07-07T16:02:30Z stassats: though in practice, such patches rarely follow the protocol, like modifying the ChangeLog file, or adding NEWS entries, etc.
2014-07-07T16:03:22Z ck_: duly noted
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2014-07-07T16:10:05Z wizzo: is there some documentation on how the colon works in symbol names and how the modules/packages work?
2014-07-07T16:10:36Z stassats: there's no modules, and there isn't much to the colon
2014-07-07T16:10:39Z wizzo: is that part of normal common lisp?
2014-07-07T16:10:43Z wizzo: oh
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2014-07-07T16:10:57Z stassats: : means an external symbol, and :: means an internal symbol
2014-07-07T16:11:10Z stassats: :: will also happen to intern a symbol if there isn't one
2014-07-07T16:11:28Z stassats: and :foo is short for keyword::foo, that's about it
2014-07-07T16:11:47Z Xach: wizzo: http://l1sp.org/cl/2.3.5 has some info, http://l1sp.org/cl/2.3.4 too.
2014-07-07T16:12:07Z stassats: clhs 2.3.5
2014-07-07T16:12:07Z specbot: Valid Patterns for Tokens: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ce.htm
2014-07-07T16:12:26Z wizzo: external to what?
2014-07-07T16:12:30Z wizzo: and cool thanks i will read
2014-07-07T16:12:43Z stassats: to the package
2014-07-07T16:12:45Z Xach: "external" is a package system concept. it means it can be referenced with a package prefix and a single colon.
2014-07-07T16:13:03Z stassats: while ":" is simple, the package system has many different concepts
2014-07-07T16:13:04Z Xach: and it will be inherited if the package is used
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2014-07-07T16:14:22Z wizzo: what about the package system. i don't know anything about that either maybe this will make more sense if i do
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2014-07-07T16:14:45Z Xach: yes, everything makes more sense when you know about it.
2014-07-07T16:14:56Z Xach: you can't use CL very well without having some understanding of the package system.
2014-07-07T16:15:00Z stassats: a package is a hashtable with different kinds of accessors
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2014-07-07T16:15:17Z Xach: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html has some exposition
2014-07-07T16:15:27Z ck_: wizzo: there's also http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf
2014-07-07T16:15:48Z stassats: and plus inheritance
2014-07-07T16:16:17Z wizzo: stassats: hey that actually made a lot of sense
2014-07-07T16:16:20Z wizzo: thanks for the links!
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2014-07-07T16:29:21Z rick-monster: thanks xach, brown` - was actually having some headaches with error handling in worker threads using calispel/eager-future. lparallel and slime-client look promising in this area!
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2014-07-07T16:45:40Z brown`: Xach: I believe some of my packages are failing to build on clisp because of its ancient ASDF.
2014-07-07T16:45:46Z Xach: OK
2014-07-07T16:45:53Z brown`: Any way that can be fixed?
2014-07-07T16:46:45Z brown`: Also, I'll upgrade my version of ECL.  I've been testing with an old version.
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2014-07-07T16:51:46Z Xach: I don't know. clisp hasn't released in a long time. who knows if it will again?
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2014-07-07T16:59:44Z brown`: Perhaps Quicklisp can compensate be loading a newer ASDF?
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2014-07-07T17:01:45Z Xach: I'd prefer to let implementations take the lead on that.
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2014-07-07T17:16:21Z pjb: You can easily load a newer asdf on an old one, it is specifically designed to allow that!
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2014-07-07T17:17:43Z jasom: pjb: I've had problems upgrading from 1 to 3 I think
2014-07-07T17:18:07Z jasom: but that might have been just some of the issues with 1 and binary locations being all wonky
2014-07-07T17:18:47Z pjb: jasom: you should probably upgrade to 2 first.
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2014-07-07T17:27:35Z pjb: That said, with quicklisp slime clisp 2.49+, I have an ASDF::*ASDF-VERSION* --> "2.26"
2014-07-07T17:27:51Z pjb: Why do you have only version 1?
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2014-07-07T17:33:47Z brown`: Xach: I cannot reproduce the ecl compilation problem locally with the latest ecl.
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2014-07-07T17:36:46Z Xach: brown`: i'll take that as a good sign
2014-07-07T17:37:53Z brown`: It looks like the ECL I git cloned today has ASDF 3.1.2.
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2014-07-07T17:37:58Z stassats: i assume you mean the latest git?
2014-07-07T17:38:21Z stassats: the release has 2.26, and the git i updated to 3.1.2 recently
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2014-07-07T19:11:50Z enfors: What would be the most elegant way to do something like (menu-add-item main-menu "Rehearse") (menu-add-item main-menu "List cards") (menu-add-item main-menu "Add cards") (menu-add-item main-menu "Exit") if we assume the string parts (e.g "Rehearse", etc) are in a list?
2014-07-07T19:12:19Z enfors: I'm guessing the answer will begin with (map... something or other, but I'm not sure what to use.
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2014-07-07T19:12:36Z stassats: (loop for item in '("Rehearse") do (menu-add-item main-menu item))
2014-07-07T19:13:19Z Enfors: Thanks!
2014-07-07T19:13:36Z segv-: there's also the more funcitonal: (mapcar (curry #'menu-add-item main-menu) '("Rehearse" ...))
2014-07-07T19:13:44Z segv-: (assuming you have alexandria installed, or have your own curry)
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2014-07-07T19:14:14Z segv-: or maybe mapc which doesn't build up a result list
2014-07-07T19:15:03Z Enfors: As far as I'm concerned, curry is a spice. :-)
2014-07-07T19:15:35Z segv-: ha ha ha
2014-07-07T19:15:47Z inanc: it's a spicy technique
2014-07-07T19:15:48Z Enfors: ... and that's all I know about curry.
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2014-07-07T19:16:08Z Enfors: I wouldn't trust one that I couldn't eat.
2014-07-07T19:16:26Z inanc: i think it refers more to the act of mixing/stirring than to the spice itself
2014-07-07T19:16:34Z Enfors: I see.
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2014-07-07T19:17:18Z Xach: must...resist...getting sucked into pointless trivia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currying#Naming
2014-07-07T19:17:21Z Xach fails
2014-07-07T19:17:34Z inanc: oh
2014-07-07T19:17:44Z Enfors grins.
2014-07-07T19:17:47Z inanc: my bad. I liked to think about it like mixing in a pot
2014-07-07T19:18:06Z Bicyclidine: somehow, "Schönfinkeling" never really caught on
2014-07-07T19:18:23Z inanc: I wonder why
2014-07-07T19:18:45Z Bicyclidine: oh, i thought this was going to be about the other thing
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2014-07-07T19:20:46Z inanc: but Curry itself is aptly named
2014-07-07T19:21:23Z inanc: merging elements
2014-07-07T19:21:31Z inanc: I can stick with my cooking analogy
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2014-07-07T19:22:22Z qbit: wooo
2014-07-07T19:26:06Z qbit: anyone doing any GIS kinda stuff? (specifically with mapnik)?
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2014-07-07T19:35:08Z jasom: Someone mentioned currying on this channel without it devolving into a debate on the difference between currying and partial-application?
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2014-07-07T19:35:31Z inanc: well, up until now
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2014-07-07T19:39:51Z inanc: thankfully it seems like it'll stay that way
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2014-07-07T19:40:54Z inanc: qbit: what are you working on?
2014-07-07T19:44:19Z inanc: I've been trying to create my own shapefiles for indoor maps to use with mapnik, but not in lisp
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2014-07-07T19:46:50Z Xach had a shapefile reader in Lisp, never got output working
2014-07-07T19:47:11Z inanc: had?
2014-07-07T19:48:21Z Xach: I never polished it up enough to share it. It's on a backup directory somewhere.
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2014-07-07T19:49:33Z inanc: mapnik itself is very simple to use imho, a very neat tool
2014-07-07T19:49:55Z inanc: getting good data and creating shapefiles for new maps is more challenging
2014-07-07T19:50:56Z Xach: my state publishes neat shapefiles. i was trying to make PDFs out of them in 2007 or so.
2014-07-07T19:51:14Z qbit: inanc: trying to learn me some lips - have a few project ideas i am playing with (using us census data and postgis)
2014-07-07T19:51:37Z qbit: *lisp :P
2014-07-07T19:51:42Z inanc: interesting
2014-07-07T19:52:03Z inanc: and why maps?
2014-07-07T19:52:04Z qbit: don't think i would need much beyond cl-proj
2014-07-07T19:52:20Z qbit: inanc: i just really like them
2014-07-07T19:52:22Z qbit: :D
2014-07-07T19:52:25Z inanc: :D
2014-07-07T19:52:33Z inanc: so do I, friend
2014-07-07T19:52:44Z Xach: maps are fun.
2014-07-07T19:53:04Z inanc: I'm currently trying to build a system which can auto generate indoor maps
2014-07-07T19:53:39Z inanc: if I manage to produce good shapefiles I could generate useful maps
2014-07-07T19:56:00Z qbit: inanc: what are you using to produce the shapefiles?
2014-07-07T19:56:33Z Xach: They are not all that complicated. The spec is kurz & gut.
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2014-07-07T19:57:46Z inanc: Xach is right
2014-07-07T19:57:58Z fortitude: inanc: I worked at a place that did something similar with lidar at one point
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2014-07-07T19:58:13Z inanc: I made my own shapefile writer, getting good data is more difficult
2014-07-07T19:58:14Z fortitude: the big issue wound up being spurious data points, and getting the scanner to know which way it was facing...
2014-07-07T19:58:45Z inanc: did you get good results?
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2014-07-07T19:59:29Z fortitude: inanc: they were generally good results, but you had to run them through a separate step to pre-process the data, and then the rest usually involved at least some human intervention
2014-07-07T20:00:06Z fortitude: mostly to deal with stuff like that chair that somebody left in the hallway
2014-07-07T20:00:26Z inanc: interesting
2014-07-07T20:00:35Z inanc: what kind of maps did you generate?
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2014-07-07T20:02:37Z fortitude: inanc: generally speaking they were either for an inventorying process (so people knew what kind of physical footprint they actually had), and occasionally we'd add in stuff like temperature readings so they could figure out where all their heating money was going
2014-07-07T20:03:15Z inanc: impressive
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2014-07-07T20:04:12Z |3b| is trying to generate javascript source maps, does that count? :p
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2014-07-07T20:08:13Z inanc: well that's something else entirely
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2014-07-07T20:08:41Z inanc: not to say less of a challenge, though
2014-07-07T20:08:44Z inanc: ;)
2014-07-07T20:08:54Z |3b|: nah, challenge is getting the data to put into them :/
2014-07-07T20:09:20Z |3b|: will probably need a custom reader or to hack implementations' readers to get it completely right
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2014-07-07T20:37:32Z joe-w-bimedina: I made a C wrapper for a C++ operator and it is not working the same as it does in C. I know how to add the cout inside of the C wrapper to make sure it is getting the correct data but what are some other debugging steps I could take?  I know to check to make sure it is not a 64 bit integer that the wrapper is getting or outputting and I did cout the pointer inside the wrapper and that is not an issue.  eg this: 0x7fff44a09a7c is a represen
2014-07-07T20:37:32Z joe-w-bimedina: tation of  a 48 bit pointer I found here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7190708/c-pointer-on-64-bit-machine and here is one the function was recieving in C: 0x7fffd4000d10 and here is the one it was outputting from lisp: #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X7FFFD400F7C0).  I made a gist of some relevant data here: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/0344574b369cdb57ffa8  If any one could help me with this I would be much appreciative
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2014-07-07T20:39:49Z |3b|: your C example isn't C
2014-07-07T20:40:02Z jasom: It's C++ with C linkage
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2014-07-07T20:40:21Z Bicyclidine: oh yeah, cout isn't c, why didn't i notice that before
2014-07-07T20:40:32Z |3b|: nor is new
2014-07-07T20:40:54Z Bicyclidine: or String. gosh
2014-07-07T20:41:04Z jasom: Only C linkage is required to call from Lisp though
2014-07-07T20:41:09Z joe-w-bimedina: that is how I test, because all my c wrappers that need to use new
2014-07-07T20:41:26Z H4ns sees the beauty emerging
2014-07-07T20:41:29Z |3b|: if you want it to be a valid comparison, they need to use what you are calling from lisp
2014-07-07T20:41:29Z Bicyclidine: your C wrappers need to be in C++, you say
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2014-07-07T20:41:32Z Bicyclidine: fascinating
2014-07-07T20:41:38Z Fare: H4ns, which beauty?
2014-07-07T20:41:58Z |3b|: and you need to compile it with a C compiler
2014-07-07T20:42:09Z H4ns: Fare: the widest ffi based lisp library every created.
2014-07-07T20:42:14Z jasom would need to see with-file-storage and file-storage definitions
2014-07-07T20:42:23Z jasom: it's possible that you aren't closing the file storage correctly
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2014-07-07T20:42:50Z Fare: wasn't there a C++ wrapper library previously? Like, verazzano or something?
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2014-07-07T20:43:24Z Fare: (I was wondering whether you meant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_Venus_%28Botticelli%29 or some voyeuring)
2014-07-07T20:43:47Z jasom: Also I'd like to know how you get cffi to convert from a lisp string to a C++ String
2014-07-07T20:43:47Z Fare: or something else based on gccxml ?
2014-07-07T20:43:55Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec on all that
2014-07-07T20:44:30Z jasom: It would likely be easier to make cv_FileStorage_write_String take a char * since cffi has support for that built in
2014-07-07T20:44:32Z |3b|: jasom: there is an extern C function that returns a pointer to a C++ string
2014-07-07T20:44:54Z jasom: |3b|: I see
2014-07-07T20:44:57Z |3b| has no idea why it can't figure out the length of a string on its own though
2014-07-07T20:46:13Z |3b| doesn't see anything in FileStorage docs that makes return new "FileStorage(*fs << String(*value));" make any sense either
2014-07-07T20:46:35Z joe-w-bimedina: I added the info requested to the bottom of gist
2014-07-07T20:46:48Z |3b|: oops, meant "return new FileStorage(*fs << String(*value));"
2014-07-07T20:48:09Z joe-w-bimedina: I wrapped the C function the way the others were wrapped in C and it does work in C.  I have always tested with C linkage with no issue, but if that is a possibility I can test with only C
2014-07-07T20:48:47Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: I still don't see where with-file-storage is defined
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2014-07-07T20:48:59Z joe-w-bimedina: will write in C only now per 3b:  ...one sec
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2014-07-07T20:49:42Z joe-w-bimedina: updated gist at bottom
2014-07-07T20:51:04Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: wow lots of reader macros
2014-07-07T20:51:27Z jasom is guessing #! generates a lambda with %1 %2 ... as arguments
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2014-07-07T20:51:41Z |3b| likes how a macro documented as "ensures DEL-FILE-STORAGE gets called.." doesn't call DEL-FILE-STORAGE
2014-07-07T20:51:52Z |3b|: never mind, i can't read
2014-07-07T20:52:09Z |3b| likes how it is indented confusingly so i can't tell what it is doing
2014-07-07T20:52:31Z jasom:  #!(del-file-storage %1)  <-- if #! does what I think it does, this seems a superfluous use of it
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2014-07-07T20:52:36Z joe-w-bimedina: it calls it on this line (mapcar #!(del-file-storage %1) ,(cons 'list (mapcar #!(car %1) bind))),
2014-07-07T20:52:58Z joe-w-bimedina: I can test without the with-macro
2014-07-07T20:52:59Z |3b|: jasom: same with the #!(car %1)
2014-07-07T20:53:02Z jasom: Is it me, or is bind evaluated more than once in this?
2014-07-07T20:53:19Z |3b|: yeah, looks like it
2014-07-07T20:53:21Z moore33: |3b|:Looks like you're running out of snark there.
2014-07-07T20:53:30Z jasom: that's a huge code smell right there
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2014-07-07T20:53:52Z moore33: Joe
2014-07-07T20:54:06Z |3b|: ...is #!(cons (car %1) (cdr %1)) just a really confusing way to write #'identity that errors if it isn't a cons?
2014-07-07T20:54:55Z jasom: This is easily the most obfuscated with-foo macro I've ever read
2014-07-07T20:54:55Z moore33: joe-w-bimedina:But yeah, that #! thing is out of control.
2014-07-07T20:55:48Z joe-w-bimedina: II tested like this and still same issue: (defparameter fs (file-storage "/home/w/float.yml"  +file-storage-write+))
2014-07-07T20:55:56Z |3b|: moore33: https://github.com/3b/3bgl-misc/blob/master/opticl/opticl.lisp has some unfinished but possibly working code for creating GL textures from opticl images, if you still need that sort of thing
2014-07-07T20:56:12Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: did you call del-file-storage on it?
2014-07-07T20:56:24Z joe-w-bimedina: on this (defparameter fs (file-storage "/home/w/float.yml"  +file-storage-write+))
2014-07-07T20:56:27Z joe-w-bimedina: ?
2014-07-07T20:56:47Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: where is the c definition corresponding to del-file-storage ?
2014-07-07T20:56:50Z jasom is assuming the output doesn't get flushed until fileStorage is deleted
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2014-07-07T20:57:26Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: and are you calling that c function from the C version you are comparing with?
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2014-07-07T20:58:01Z joe-w-bimedina: updated gist with delete
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2014-07-07T20:58:24Z joe-w-bimedina: im witing version w/o c linkage now
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2014-07-07T20:59:26Z moore33: |3b|:Cool! Thank you.
2014-07-07T21:00:11Z |3b|: moore33: probably could be optimized for less copying on some platforms, but haven't bothered with that yet
2014-07-07T21:01:15Z jasom: hmm, only the CAR of bind gets evaluated multiple times, so that should be fine
2014-07-07T21:01:37Z jasom: or rather the CAR of each element of bind
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2014-07-07T21:05:00Z joe-w-bimedina: Ok I tested with pure C code and still get same issue: udated gist with code I used
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2014-07-07T21:05:37Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: if you write a C main that does what the lisp code does, what happens?
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2014-07-07T21:07:47Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry gist didnt update first time but updated now, jasom: I get a .yml file in my home directory with:
2014-07-07T21:07:49Z joe-w-bimedina: %YAML:1.0
2014-07-07T21:07:49Z joe-w-bimedina: features:
2014-07-07T21:07:53Z joe-w-bimedina: in it
2014-07-07T21:08:07Z joe-w-bimedina: in lisp I get a file but nothing in it
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2014-07-07T21:08:46Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: can you show your C main?  I only see a C++ main
2014-07-07T21:08:55Z jasom: nm I see it now
2014-07-07T21:08:58Z jasom: L150
2014-07-07T21:09:25Z jasom: It still uses new for String, but other than that seems to do it appropriately
2014-07-07T21:09:29Z moore33: joe-w-bimedina: Out of curiosity, how are you linking your C wrappers? Is this on Linux?
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2014-07-07T21:09:41Z joe-w-bimedina: Ubuntu Trusty tahr
2014-07-07T21:10:09Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec
2014-07-07T21:10:12Z moore33: My question still stands :)
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2014-07-07T21:11:42Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: A simple check would be to add stderr fprintfs to each cv_ function and see if they are being called appropriately.
2014-07-07T21:11:43Z joe-w-bimedina: moore33: updated gist at bottom
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2014-07-07T21:12:03Z jasom: the log should be identical from lisp and C if you're doing it right.
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2014-07-07T21:13:27Z moore33: No, I meant the link line for building extra_functions.so.
2014-07-07T21:13:47Z joe-w-bimedina: how do I add that line to my wrapper, here is it verbatim: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/60ed0b7dffd4f84dfa7e  new to line you posted
2014-07-07T21:14:35Z joe-w-bimedina: do you mean this: g++  -Wall -shared -fPIC -o extra_functions.so extra_functions.cpp
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2014-07-07T21:16:24Z joe-w-bimedina: if not don't understand link line
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2014-07-07T21:16:55Z moore33: joe-w-bimedina:yes, and looks ok.
2014-07-07T21:17:14Z joe-w-bimedina: great
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2014-07-07T21:18:40Z joe-w-bimedina: fprintf(stderr, "error!");  outputs: error!error!error!
2014-07-07T21:19:37Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry,not sue how to use that, yet, but researching now
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2014-07-07T21:24:00Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: \n
2014-07-07T21:24:24Z jasom: fprintf(stderr, "error!\n")
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2014-07-07T21:28:43Z joe-w-bimedina: jasom: upodated gist here, https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/60ed0b7dffd4f84dfa7e the output is three lines of error!
2014-07-07T21:28:50Z joe-w-bimedina: jasom: upodated gist here, https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/60ed0b7dffd4f84dfa7e the output is three lines of "error!"
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2014-07-07T21:32:44Z drmeister: What's the more popular FFI interface?   I'm looking at cl-process:   https://github.com/archimag/cl-popen    it uses the "CFFI" package - described here: http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/   is that the most common FFI?
2014-07-07T21:33:06Z phadthai: cffi is generally recommended over the others today yes
2014-07-07T21:33:24Z drmeister: I have stubs for a FFI in my system and I think I need to fill them in now.
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2014-07-07T21:33:33Z drmeister: phadthai: Thanks.
2014-07-07T21:34:21Z joe-w-bimedina: I added How I convert from C++ string to lisp to the gist at bottom, do you guys have any more ideas?
2014-07-07T21:34:22Z phadthai: joe-w-bimedina: I've not been following, but is that function called from a macro?  Macros may be expanded more than once
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2014-07-07T21:34:38Z joe-w-bimedina: which function?
2014-07-07T21:34:51Z phadthai: the one calling fprintf() there
2014-07-07T21:35:31Z joe-w-bimedina: no it is a basic function: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/60ed0b7dffd4f84dfa7e
2014-07-07T21:35:39Z phadthai: well I'm not even sure what you're trying to achieve, but I had the impression that you were surprised it was called three times
2014-07-07T21:35:56Z joe-w-bimedina: yes I was , what does that mean,
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2014-07-07T21:37:14Z phadthai: so multiple macroexpansion is just a guess, as it's a common mistake to assume a macro is only expanded once at compile time
2014-07-07T21:38:45Z joe-w-bimedina: no macros are involve now, they were though.  any questions you have I can explain,  it is all in the history if you search for: "I made a C wrapper for a" you will find top line
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2014-07-07T21:43:57Z joe-w-bimedina: when I call the values param as char*,  I get: "%YAML:1.0" printed in the  .yml file but not the "features:"
2014-07-07T21:44:26Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: what about the other 3 functions called? create, release and delete?
2014-07-07T21:44:52Z joe-w-bimedina: to what are you referring?
2014-07-07T21:44:56Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: for fprintf
2014-07-07T21:45:28Z joe-w-bimedina: I did test all those functions in another example and they do work, should I still try it?
2014-07-07T21:45:49Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: does it work from lisp now?
2014-07-07T21:46:07Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: you want to make sure all cv_ functions are called in the same order from both lisp and C, if they aren't then that would explain the difference.
2014-07-07T21:46:12Z joe-w-bimedina: not fully but better  when I call the values param as char*,  I get: "%YAML:1.0" printed in the  .yml file but not the "features:"
2014-07-07T21:46:32Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: so it's C to C++ string conversion that causes the issue perhaps?
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2014-07-07T21:46:49Z joe-w-bimedina: they are called in same order, I posted them at gist as I ran them,  I can repost on a smaller gist if that helps
2014-07-07T21:47:09Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: that's fine.  The gist I saw only showed write as having a printf
2014-07-07T21:48:03Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: did you paste the pure C example somewhere? all i see is stuff with new in it
2014-07-07T21:48:05Z joe-w-bimedina: that covversion function is well tested, are there any steps I could take though, here is the full gist with all the info:https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/0344574b369cdb57ffa8
2014-07-07T21:48:08Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: I would use the constructor that doesn't take a length preferrably over the one that does, since lisp strings converted to C strings should be properly nul terminated
2014-07-07T21:48:19Z |3b| doesn't think C has a 'new' operator
2014-07-07T21:48:44Z joe-w-bimedina: I only know how to use new as far, can you rewrite that line real quick so I could test
2014-07-07T21:48:55Z |3b|: how do you call new from lisp?
2014-07-07T21:49:00Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: cstring_to_std_string(foo,strlen(foo))
2014-07-07T21:49:13Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: that's how you do it from lisp, after all.
2014-07-07T21:49:18Z |3b|: lisp doesn't have a 'new' operator either
2014-07-07T21:49:19Z joe-w-bimedina: I don't the cwrapper takes care of that, it is just to make the code work
2014-07-07T21:49:30Z joe-w-bimedina: I don't the c wrapper takes care of that, it is just to make the code work
2014-07-07T21:49:36Z |3b|: if you can't do it from C, you can't do it from lisp
2014-07-07T21:49:37Z joe-w-bimedina: I think it makes it safe
2014-07-07T21:49:44Z joe-w-bimedina: do what?
2014-07-07T21:49:45Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: you call "new String" in your "C only" example
2014-07-07T21:50:01Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: change it to allocate a String * the same way that lisp does
2014-07-07T21:50:22Z jasom: or better yet, change your C wrappers to take a char *
2014-07-07T21:50:23Z joe-w-bimedina: the ctdstring* cstring_to_std_string(char* s, size_t len) function I use does that though
2014-07-07T21:50:31Z joe-w-bimedina: at bottom of gist
2014-07-07T21:50:35Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: so use that in your "C only" main
2014-07-07T21:50:43Z jasom: so we are doing apples-to-apples comparisons
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2014-07-07T21:50:53Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: also, i still don't see anything that makes " return new FileStorage(*fs << String(*value));" make any sense
2014-07-07T21:51:00Z joe-w-bimedina: I did and I posted: when I call the values param as char*,  I get: "%YAML:1.0" printed in the  .yml file but not the "features:", otherwise I get nothing in the file
2014-07-07T21:51:22Z joe-w-bimedina: yes because the new is called wrapped in c at least
2014-07-07T21:51:25Z |3b| doesn't remember, what does << return?
2014-07-07T21:51:44Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: what line of the gist is that on? I see only 3 main() functions in the gist and they all use "new String"
2014-07-07T21:52:09Z joe-w-bimedina: a FileStorage object
2014-07-07T21:52:10Z jasom: (28, 150 and 218 are the line #s of the main() I see)
2014-07-07T21:52:56Z joe-w-bimedina: so we are cool on that right, I use the new but in a way so does lisp,
2014-07-07T21:53:08Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: if you are calling new, it isn't C
2014-07-07T21:53:13Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: no we are not cool.  Have a main() function that doesnot have the string "new" inside the body.
2014-07-07T21:53:16Z |3b|: so your "test in C" example /doesn't test in C"
2014-07-07T21:53:34Z jasom: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/0344574b369cdb57ffa8#file-gistfile1-cpp-L223 <-- there's an example of "new" inside your main()
2014-07-07T21:54:19Z joe-w-bimedina: why did you post line 223
2014-07-07T21:54:22Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: are you saying *fs << String(..) returns a FileSystem object??
2014-07-07T21:54:34Z joe-w-bimedina: it does yes
2014-07-07T21:54:35Z |3b|: if so, why are you passing it to new FileSytstem()?
2014-07-07T21:54:49Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: because you are using new in your "C only" main()
2014-07-07T21:54:50Z joe-w-bimedina: pls clarify
2014-07-07T21:54:55Z |3b|: and why are you returning a new FileSystem object then ignoring it in all of the functions that call that?
2014-07-07T21:55:12Z jasom: new String ("features") <-- change that to use cstring_to_std_string
2014-07-07T21:55:20Z |3b|: return new FileStorage(*fs << String(*value))
2014-07-07T21:55:30Z jasom: |3b|: yes, that function leaks memory like a sieve, but that's not why it isn't working from lisp, presumably
2014-07-07T21:55:56Z |3b|: jasom: who knows... i don't see that constructor listed in the FileStorage docs
2014-07-07T21:56:17Z |3b|: who says he hasn't been ignoring compiler errors for the last hour and using some other code
2014-07-07T21:56:44Z jasom: |3b|: the fact that he claims to have seen output when adding a fprintf to stderr
2014-07-07T21:57:10Z joe-w-bimedina: I can show example of the C++ code Im trying to emulate...anyway here it is at the top of this page under the "here is an example" heading http://docs.opencv.org/trunk/modules/core/doc/xml_yaml_persistence.html?highlight=filestorage#FileStorage
2014-07-07T21:57:22Z |3b|: jasom: ah, missed that part
2014-07-07T21:57:25Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec on the change
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2014-07-07T21:58:30Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: look at my 2nd comment on the gist and try *that* main
2014-07-07T21:59:04Z jasom: also you are leaking memory like crazy with new everywhere and then throwing away pointers... you can fix that later though
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2014-07-07T22:03:37Z slyrus: hmm... fare's not around anymore, but, in answer to his query, yes, I wrote gcc-xml-ffi to automagically generated sb-alien-fu for arbitrary C code
2014-07-07T22:03:57Z jasom: Can I suggest at this point that making a wrapper for a C++ library may be beyond your current C programming skills right now, and #lisp might not be the best place to learn more C?
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2014-07-07T22:04:57Z moore33: slyrus:These days, do you have an opinion about that approach vs. SWIG?
2014-07-07T22:05:37Z slyrus: ugh... I think the question I would ask myself now (and for which I don't have an answer) is sb-alien or CFFI?
2014-07-07T22:06:12Z joe-w-bimedina: still testing, I have been good enough to wrap 300 functions so far, maybe the eroor isn't with me, could be with the C+ to C
2014-07-07T22:06:20Z joe-w-bimedina: conversion
2014-07-07T22:06:30Z slyrus: and I think there are some compilers that dump xml (or similar) output directly from the compiler without needing gccxml (clang maybe?)
2014-07-07T22:06:42Z joe-w-bimedina: maybe wrapping an operator isn't  a good idea
2014-07-07T22:06:57Z slyrus: I quickly became disillusioned with SWIG, but that was a _long_ time ago
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2014-07-07T22:08:16Z moore33: For me, it would definitely be cffi.
2014-07-07T22:08:17Z joe-w-bimedina: I am new to swig but I will try that today to wrap the operator,
2014-07-07T22:08:46Z |3b|: moore33: might also look at https://github.com/rpav/c2ffi and https://github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap
2014-07-07T22:09:04Z moore33: Swig claims to have cffi support; has anyone here given it a workout?
2014-07-07T22:09:25Z joe-w-bimedina: I have
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2014-07-07T22:09:39Z |3b| seems to remember it not doing the interesting things other swig backends did last time i looked at it, so didn't look closer
2014-07-07T22:09:52Z joe-w-bimedina: Im a beginner though but it makes your defcfuns, defcstructs
2014-07-07T22:10:00Z moore33: |3b|:Ok, but c++ is the interesting part for me.
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2014-07-07T22:10:14Z |3b|: moore33: yeah, i think that was the missing bit i was looking for :/
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2014-07-07T22:10:47Z |3b| prefers hand editing bindings anyway, so i don't really want a fully automated thing
2014-07-07T22:10:53Z moore33: Joe-w-bimedina: That's good start :)
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2014-07-07T22:11:03Z |3b|: something like c2ffi which generates data files i can use to generate what i want is better
2014-07-07T22:11:21Z |3b|: haven't actually tried setting up whatever clang stuff it needs yet though
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2014-07-07T22:11:40Z moore33: |3b|:Yeah, but the thing is I'm contemplating wrapping a huge library.
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2014-07-07T22:12:05Z |3b|: even with a huge lib i'd rather direct the generation by hand
2014-07-07T22:12:27Z moore33: But hand-written with a ton of macrology might be the way to go.
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2014-07-07T22:12:49Z |3b|: for example parse it, then mess with some types, then let it generate, or whatever
2014-07-07T22:13:12Z |3b|: or custom renaming for some identifier patterns but not others
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2014-07-07T22:14:01Z |3b|: or wrapping some idiom like "last arg is an error output pointer"
2014-07-07T22:15:24Z joe-w-bimedina: jasom: that main you had didn't work can you show me what I am doing wrong so I can speed this up,  I edited  it but here is gist so far: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/df2fba2b3245dd9da4bf
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2014-07-07T22:17:26Z moore33: Night all
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2014-07-07T22:20:03Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: what do you mean "didn't work?"
2014-07-07T22:20:18Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: why do you pass a length argument to cstring_to_std_string?
2014-07-07T22:20:25Z |3b|: also, why do you pass the wrong length?
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2014-07-07T22:21:28Z |3b|: and why are you still putting c++ code in C files? and why are you calling C files .cpp ?
2014-07-07T22:21:48Z |3b|: you have a library with a C API, which you call from lisp
2014-07-07T22:22:08Z |3b|: you should test that library by using that library from C code
2014-07-07T22:22:20Z |3b|: not by copying random bits into a c++ file and pretending it is C code
2014-07-07T22:22:23Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm trying this https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/5a3ccf56499dcee729ca and getting these errors at bottom,  the cstring_to_std_string is an openCv function so I use it
2014-07-07T22:23:02Z |3b|: is that in the opencv docs somewhere?
2014-07-07T22:23:09Z |3b|: and if it is, why are you redefining it?
2014-07-07T22:23:33Z joe-w-bimedina: the cpp files were digned by a veteran programmer and accepted by OpenCv so I think they are good enough, unless you guys spotted error that OpenCv didn't,  which does happen.
2014-07-07T22:24:01Z |3b|: so why aren't you using it?
2014-07-07T22:24:12Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: well there's the problem
2014-07-07T22:24:32Z |3b|: also, needing to pass the length of a c string to a c function is a sign they aren't good enough
2014-07-07T22:24:34Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: c_strint_to_std_string doesn't conver t to a cv::String* , which apparently is different from std::String
2014-07-07T22:25:19Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: therefore you are passing the wrong type to cv_FileStorage_write_String
2014-07-07T22:25:26Z joe-w-bimedina: oops it is in the interop library that the guy who started the C bindings wrote here: https://github.com/arjuncomar/cpp-interop/blob/master/cbits/interop.cpp
2014-07-07T22:25:47Z |3b|: and compile C code with gcc not g++
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2014-07-07T22:25:57Z |3b|: then it will tell you when you are trying to use c++
2014-07-07T22:26:07Z joe-w-bimedina: the guy that wrote them is a DOD vetran, but honestly don't know if you are better than him
2014-07-07T22:27:15Z joe-w-bimedina: the c wrappers have c++ inside them  and compiling the way I have has been working but I will try that
2014-07-07T22:27:37Z joe-w-bimedina: jasom: so I can spped this up where is the error in the last gist I posted
2014-07-07T22:27:43Z |3b|: your definition of "work" isn't very good
2014-07-07T22:27:57Z |3b|: your definition seems to be "compiles and runs but doesn't actually test anything"
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2014-07-07T22:28:17Z |3b|: if that's what you want, just comment out all the code and it will compile and run and not test anything
2014-07-07T22:28:44Z |3b|: if you want to actually test what you claim to be testing, you need to actually /do/ what you claim to be testing
2014-07-07T22:28:48Z joe-w-bimedina: the examples I make work as expected except for this one and the other one I showed you,  its just these 2 out of 300 converted so far, not counting a few
2014-07-07T22:28:50Z |3b|: which is call the c wrappers from x
2014-07-07T22:28:52Z |3b|: from c
2014-07-07T22:29:25Z |3b|: so how do you know those other 298 actually test what you think they test?
2014-07-07T22:29:58Z joe-w-bimedina: I did that C example is a broken down version of an example that works in c++ that example works in both c and c++ but not lisp
2014-07-07T22:30:04Z |3b|: if they are compiled by a c++ compiler as c++ code, you might be accidentally using C++ apis, which won't work when you translate them to lisp
2014-07-07T22:30:11Z joe-w-bimedina: pls clarify "test'
2014-07-07T22:30:18Z |3b|: "verify it functions"
2014-07-07T22:30:23Z |3b|: you have a C API
2014-07-07T22:30:26Z |3b|: you want to call it from lisp
2014-07-07T22:30:46Z |3b|: before calling it from lisp, you might want to verify it works from C, since if it doesn't work from C it won't work from lisp
2014-07-07T22:31:08Z |3b|: if you skip that step, you will end up with something that doesn't work from lisp and not be able to rule out the C part not working
2014-07-07T22:31:17Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: oh, fix the 3rd parameter to cv_create_FS in my example.
2014-07-07T22:31:39Z joe-w-bimedina: I did it does work from c but not lisp, just need help on that last gist I posted to help me get rid of using the new's
2014-07-07T22:32:01Z |3b|: where is the cstring_to_std_string you call from lisp defined?
2014-07-07T22:32:05Z joe-w-bimedina: #b: I will take that to heart
2014-07-07T22:32:28Z joe-w-bimedina: I have a version of this file I compile https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/5a3ccf56499dcee729ca
2014-07-07T22:32:37Z |3b|: it isn't in lisp, and it isn't
2014-07-07T22:32:54Z |3b|: oops, meant to delete that bit not hit enter
2014-07-07T22:33:09Z |3b|: ok, so you have a shared lib containing the C function cstring_to_std_string ?
2014-07-07T22:33:21Z |3b|: which is built from the "version of this file"?
2014-07-07T22:33:28Z |3b|: and is a c++ file, with extern C?
2014-07-07T22:34:06Z |3b|: if you don't, you can't be calling it from lisp
2014-07-07T22:34:18Z |3b|: if you do, then do the exact same thing from C
2014-07-07T22:34:23Z |3b|: link the shared library, call the function
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2014-07-07T22:36:20Z joe-w-bimedina: jasom: I changed it but still same issue,  my change is in the second to last comment, errors are in the last, you didn't add length param,  changing now
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2014-07-07T22:37:25Z |3b|: c also doesn't have FileStorage::WRITE, so use the constant you use in lisp, to make sure it does the correct thing when passed to that function
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2014-07-07T22:38:35Z |3b|: currently your test is "i do something in C++ that sort of look like C but isn't, then do something completely different in lisp and get different results", which isn't very informative
2014-07-07T22:39:10Z |3b|: if you had "I do something in C, then do same thing from lisp", it would be meaningful to compare the 2 to see which part isn't in fact the same thing
2014-07-07T22:39:26Z |3b|: but if they aren't even trying to be the same thing, we are just guessing
2014-07-07T22:39:32Z joe-w-bimedina: latest version and errors in last 2 comments
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2014-07-07T22:39:58Z |3b| has no idea what you mean by that
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2014-07-07T22:40:38Z joe-w-bimedina: it has the new constant 3b: I'm changing the way I do it now, thats why I'm posting the new tries and errors,  thank you for affirming that for me, from now on it will be my main m.o.
2014-07-07T22:40:55Z |3b|: "it"?
2014-07-07T22:41:15Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm trying to write the same as in C as Lisp, and my latest attempt is in the bottom 2 comments
2014-07-07T22:41:26Z |3b|: bottom 2 comments of what?
2014-07-07T22:41:28Z jasom: missing a comma
2014-07-07T22:41:37Z joe-w-bimedina: it = writing the same in c as in Lisp
2014-07-07T22:41:39Z jasom: |3b|: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/0344574b369cdb57ffa8
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2014-07-07T22:42:14Z |3b|: ok, that's what i was looking for
2014-07-07T22:42:22Z joe-w-bimedina: changed, still getting the : deprecated conversion from string constant to ‘char*’ errors
2014-07-07T22:42:37Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: rename it to .c
2014-07-07T22:42:48Z jasom: and those are warnings, not errors
2014-07-07T22:43:05Z |3b|: you should be getting an error about not having new, because you are still putting c++ code in it
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2014-07-07T22:43:32Z |3b|: the c++ code should be in a shared lib, which you link to the C code
2014-07-07T22:43:53Z |3b|: at that point you can test the lisp code, which calls functions in a shared lib
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2014-07-07T22:47:07Z joe-w-bimedina: is this thhe right compile command  gcc  b.c -o b `pkg-config --cflags --libs opencv`
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2014-07-07T22:47:31Z joe-w-bimedina: the c++ is in a .so in usr/local/lib
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2014-07-07T22:48:42Z joe-w-bimedina: I usually test with C linkage and that has worked but changing to a .c brings alot of errors
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2014-07-07T22:49:20Z jasom: yup, so fix them :)
2014-07-07T22:49:21Z Bicyclidine: well, with .c, gcc will compile it as C and not C++, so stuff like "new" isn't gonna happen.
2014-07-07T22:49:32Z Bicyclidine: since they're different languages and all.
2014-07-07T22:50:00Z joe-w-bimedina: since these are C wrappers for C++ code it has to be in a cpp i think
2014-07-07T22:50:05Z jasom: And CFFI provides very little beyond what a .c file can do for calling into C++, so if you have an error in your .c you aren't doing it "the same" as lisp
2014-07-07T22:50:36Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: the wrappers go in a C++ file that you link into your lisp image.  The main() that you use to test your C++ wrappers from C should be a .c file
2014-07-07T22:50:39Z Bicyclidine: joe-w-bimedina: no, C code is written in .c files.
2014-07-07T22:50:45Z joe-w-bimedina: but what about the C++ functions, the .c file doesn't accept the c++ headers that are neccessary
2014-07-07T22:50:51Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: so write your onw
2014-07-07T22:50:57Z Bicyclidine: joe-w-bimedina: lisp won't either.
2014-07-07T22:51:04Z Bicyclidine: cffi, rather
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2014-07-07T22:51:48Z Bicyclidine: "C/C++" sure is annoying.
2014-07-07T22:51:50Z joe-w-bimedina: so do I link the .so file to my .c file because ,cpp headers won't compil in the .c file
2014-07-07T22:52:20Z jasom: I said this earlier, but it might bear repeating: Can I suggest at this point that making a wrapper for a C++ library may be beyond your current C programming skills right now, and #lisp might not be the best place to learn more C?
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2014-07-07T22:52:46Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: yes you need to link the .so file in... just like you do from lisp.  The whole point is to make it as close to what lisp is doing as possible, right?
2014-07-07T22:52:49Z Bicyclidine: yeah i don't know how far you can get if you don't understand why you can't include C++ files in C code.
2014-07-07T22:53:53Z joe-w-bimedina: can you guys show me how or should I research this on my own,  I'm leraniong all 3 languages at once so I do run into places where i'm not knowledgeable
2014-07-07T22:53:59Z joe-w-bimedina: learning
2014-07-07T22:54:31Z Bicyclidine: i dunno. the C and C++ channels on freenode might have some ideas.
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2014-07-07T22:56:03Z joe-w-bimedina: can never get into those,  I'll try some stuff, and is the .c file with th link to the .so just for testing, because as now all my c++ wrappers are in cpp files inside an extern C{}
2014-07-07T22:56:04Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: it's tough when you are doing something like this and have no touchstone to lean on (if you knew lisp or C++ really, really well, for example, the C parts could be more easily learnable)
2014-07-07T22:56:18Z joe-w-bimedina: into those channels(c/c++)
2014-07-07T22:56:33Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: add declarations for each of those functions to the C version.
2014-07-07T22:56:48Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: the easiest way is to replace all references to C++ class pointers with a void pointer
2014-07-07T22:57:01Z jasom: so "String *" becomes "void *"
2014-07-07T22:57:23Z joe-w-bimedina: I learn quick, I am going to practice for 16 hour and be better tomorrow,....but then it is not the same wrapper
2014-07-07T22:57:48Z Xach: quick!
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2014-07-07T22:59:00Z |3b|: c++ code (including c++ code with a C compatible API) should be in cpp files compiled by a c++ compiler
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2014-07-07T22:59:27Z joe-w-bimedina: it is that is the way I do it now
2014-07-07T22:59:27Z |3b|: c code should be in .c files and compiled by a c compiler, even if it links to shared libraries written in some other language
2014-07-07T22:59:44Z Bicyclidine: yeah the second part is what you'll need to adjust to, here.
2014-07-07T22:59:53Z |3b|: c code can only link to libraries with a C API, which makes it convenient for testing cffi, which also can only link to C APIs
2014-07-07T23:00:01Z joe-w-bimedina: I have no c code  just c wrappers with c++ code in the  inside an extern C{}
2014-07-07T23:00:04Z Bicyclidine: your wrappers are the "c++ code with a C compatible API", not the "c code"
2014-07-07T23:00:15Z |3b|: so you don't actually have any tests of your C api?
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2014-07-07T23:00:30Z joe-w-bimedina: I have no C code really,  no C api
2014-07-07T23:00:40Z Bicyclidine: the extern C is supposed to be for getting a C api....
2014-07-07T23:00:43Z joe-w-bimedina: all C++ bindings
2014-07-07T23:00:45Z |3b|: so you aren't calling any functions through c++?
2014-07-07T23:00:52Z |3b|: through cffi i mean?
2014-07-07T23:01:04Z |3b|: you only have lisp code?
2014-07-07T23:01:13Z joe-w-bimedina: I call the c wrappers from cffi
2014-07-07T23:01:46Z |3b|: so you have C wrappers, which are c++ code with a C api, but you don't have any C api?
2014-07-07T23:01:49Z joe-w-bimedina: I link to the c++ .so in my lispcv.lisp file
2014-07-07T23:02:04Z |3b|: cffi can only call C APIs, so you are doing something wrong if you have cffi without a C api
2014-07-07T23:02:10Z joe-w-bimedina: I guess if extern C{} makes a c api I do
2014-07-07T23:02:16Z |3b|: ok, so you have a C api
2014-07-07T23:02:23Z |3b|: and you don't test it at all?
2014-07-07T23:02:39Z joe-w-bimedina: you mean like the tests in gsll
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2014-07-07T23:02:44Z joe-w-bimedina: ?
2014-07-07T23:03:07Z Bicyclidine: Like trying to use this api which should be c-compatible if cffi is using it. From, for example, a C program.
2014-07-07T23:03:35Z |3b|: anything that verifies it can be called from something that can call C APIs, and that it does what it is supposed to
2014-07-07T23:03:36Z joe-w-bimedina: so then I should make my C test reflect that right
2014-07-07T23:05:03Z joe-w-bimedina: so I just learn how to set up a the version Lisp is calling so I can test from c?  Can you guys help with that or should I research on my own.  If you I should research on my own can you provide links for a beginner to  doing so?
2014-07-07T23:05:22Z joe-w-bimedina: so I just learn how to set up a the version Lisp is calling so I can test from c?  Can you guys help with that or should I research on my own.  If I should research on my own can you provide links for a beginner to  doing so?
2014-07-07T23:05:29Z joe-w-bimedina: edit *
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2014-07-07T23:10:05Z joe-w-bimedina: Thank you everybody here for all the kind help they have given me today,  I appreciate all the effort you put in to helping me
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2014-07-08T01:16:08Z |3b|: are there any public domain or BSD or similar licensed standalone CL readers written in CL?
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2014-07-08T01:18:30Z |3b|: looks like sicl and sacla both have at least some of a reader, wonder how hard either would be to run in an existing CL
2014-07-08T01:21:03Z |3b|: looks like sicl has a separate package, so that should help, and READ-WITH-POSITION sounds like it might already do what i wanted to add anyway
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2014-07-08T01:26:41Z |3b|: ah, the reader with position tracking is missing some features :(
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2014-07-08T01:27:50Z joe-w-bimedina: can the (defun (setf x) (val) ...) syntax be applied to defmethods
2014-07-08T01:31:26Z phadthai: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-classes.html
2014-07-08T01:31:40Z phadthai: search for (defmethod (setf
2014-07-08T01:31:58Z Bike: yes, it can.
2014-07-08T01:32:32Z joe-w-bimedina: thank you, that is so cool
2014-07-08T01:32:46Z joe-w-bimedina: what a lifesaver
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2014-07-08T01:39:04Z pjb: |3b|: in sicl, it's some old version of com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.reader, IIRC.
2014-07-08T01:39:34Z |3b|: pjb: does it do position tracking?
2014-07-08T01:39:43Z |3b| assumes not since you said it was impossible the other day
2014-07-08T01:39:43Z pjb: You can add it.
2014-07-08T01:39:55Z |3b|: is it gpl?
2014-07-08T01:40:01Z pjb: Not in sicl.
2014-07-08T01:40:06Z pjb: It has a different license.
2014-07-08T01:40:21Z pjb: It's possible, but it could be very memory hungry.
2014-07-08T01:40:28Z |3b| meant does the com.long-name one do so, and is it gpl
2014-07-08T01:40:43Z pjb: It's AGPL3.
2014-07-08T01:42:41Z |3b|: seems like memory usage could be within a constant factor of source size, though not sure if that would be true of most 'obvious' representations
2014-07-08T01:42:41Z pjb: Embrace the AGPL3, and gain freedoms!
2014-07-08T01:43:06Z pjb: clisp has a nice compilation option: each cons cell has an added slot.
2014-07-08T01:43:22Z pjb: Could be used to store the location.
2014-07-08T01:43:31Z |3b| won't bother to argue GPL or not, we both have made our decisions :)
2014-07-08T01:43:44Z |3b|: already got conses, harder part is symbols
2014-07-08T01:44:06Z |3b|: since symbols aren't at unique locations in source
2014-07-08T01:44:47Z pjb: For symbols, you can easily add the position in the symbol-plist, with a reader macro on each constituent or escape character.
2014-07-08T01:44:48Z |3b|: best idea so far is storing offsets of the subforms of a list along with the position of that list
2014-07-08T01:45:01Z |3b|: 'easily'
2014-07-08T01:45:42Z |3b|: and the problem is that there isn't a "the position" for symbols
2014-07-08T01:45:56Z pjb: Yes, there's no fundamental difficulty, no hard algorithm.
2014-07-08T01:46:07Z |3b|: "(defun a (a) (+ a a))", what goes on the plist?
2014-07-08T01:46:13Z |3b|: for A
2014-07-08T01:46:16Z pjb: Sure, (file-position stream) in the reader macro on the first char.
2014-07-08T01:46:35Z pjb: You can put them all! :positionS
2014-07-08T01:46:56Z pjb: You may also be smart and detect fnames from vnames, and definitions from references.
2014-07-08T01:47:16Z |3b|: now replace defun with a macro that doesn't have all of the As in the expansion, how do you tell which position goes with which?
2014-07-08T01:47:57Z pjb: Exactly.  Either you just use the bottom of the stack, or you push a lot of data.
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2014-07-08T01:55:25Z joe-w-bimedina: can someone show me what I am doing wrong at this gist: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/8e63a4278e32898554f2  I seem to be following the relevant parts of the link phadthai posted but I get error
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2014-07-08T01:56:36Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: works better if you include the whole error
2014-07-08T01:57:03Z joe-w-bimedina: should I expand it
2014-07-08T01:57:42Z |3b|: what does (point 0 0) return?
2014-07-08T01:57:56Z Zhivago: Looks like a poke in the eye.
2014-07-08T01:58:27Z joe-w-bimedina: error expanded: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/163d8b648d6e3df0d91c a point object, it is setfable with mem-aref
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2014-07-08T01:59:14Z |3b|: go back and read whatever you were reading about setf functions, and look at what it says the arguments are
2014-07-08T01:59:29Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec
2014-07-08T02:00:33Z joe-w-bimedina: the arguments are classes, my cv-point is a class
2014-07-08T02:00:34Z |3b|: then look at the error message, where it says "when called with arguments ..." and think about how those arguments compare to what whatever you were reading said about them, and how both of those compare to the function you defined
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2014-07-08T02:04:14Z |3b|: the first argument of a (setf foo) function is the value to be assigned
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2014-07-08T02:09:42Z joe-w-bimedina: made 2 comments on my gist if you wanted to take a look at them
2014-07-08T02:16:18Z joe-w-bimedina: so I guess to get this done I'll have to make a class and do just exactly what they did verbatim right?  I was trying to adapt it
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2014-07-08T02:20:24Z joe-w-bimedina: and is this the ideal way to work with cffi types, since I have a point type defined that includes a cv-point class, Then I would just expand the cv-point class the way they did at the link and get my functionality I'm looking for that way right? So far those classes have been just placeholders so I could get my finalizer to work
2014-07-08T02:20:32Z joe-w-bimedina: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/8ffee02384c81987832a
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2014-07-08T02:36:52Z |3b| would translate a "point" into a lisp class that doesn't involve cffi or mem-aref
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2014-07-08T02:39:46Z joe-w-bimedina: I know , it is so tempting to expand the nice types I have though so I can use finalizers, I could maybe do what you suggest and put all my finalizers in my gc package. But how would a defcun accept the class ad a return value
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2014-07-08T02:40:14Z |3b|: whole point of converting to a lisp class is that you don't /need/ finalizers
2014-07-08T02:40:22Z |3b|: or manual memory management, or with-foo
2014-07-08T02:41:06Z joe-w-bimedina: what about the defcfun return value
2014-07-08T02:41:11Z |3b|: passing values to and from c functions is pretty much the whole point of cffi
2014-07-08T02:41:29Z |3b|: you already have it set up to do translations, you just do a different translation
2014-07-08T02:42:05Z joe-w-bimedina: so I would use translate-into foreign and output the values into a lisp class?
2014-07-08T02:42:27Z |3b| would have to look at the docs to tell you specifics, so easier to just tell you to look at the docs directly
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2014-07-08T02:43:05Z Zhivago: Don't rely on finalizers. :)
2014-07-08T02:43:12Z Zhivago: They're not destructors.
2014-07-08T02:43:16Z |3b|: Zhivago: we've covered that already :/
2014-07-08T02:43:21Z joe-w-bimedina: I did need defstruct to make that other function you helped me with work though? so in that case would you use both defstructs and defclasses
2014-07-08T02:43:41Z |3b|: along with "don't name a package GC and then copy and paste a bunch of code into it just to have versions of things that add finalizers"
2014-07-08T02:43:48Z joe-w-bimedina: all my c wrappers output a new that needs to be deleted somehow
2014-07-08T02:43:53Z Zhivago: Repetition is the key to conditioning. :)
2014-07-08T02:44:04Z joe-w-bimedina: I love that so much though
2014-07-08T02:44:15Z |3b| will let Zhivago take over the repetition then, since it is time for me to sleep
2014-07-08T02:44:22Z Zhivago: joe: Yeah, so try to call that delete function via some with-foo wrapper where possible.
2014-07-08T02:44:51Z drmeister: Does anyone have opinions on the best open source license to choose for Clasp - the Common Lisp implementing/C++ interacting/LLVM backending system I've developed?
2014-07-08T02:44:59Z joe-w-bimedina: I use with-macros all the time but that is still mm,
2014-07-08T02:45:18Z drmeister: I'm looking at http://choosealicense.com   - it has a nice presentation.
2014-07-08T02:45:32Z joe-w-bimedina: If I output the data to a lisp class it wouldn't be really automatic mm like 3b suggested then right?
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2014-07-08T02:47:10Z drmeister: I'm using LLVM as the back end and I've "borrowed" a lot of the Common Lisp source code from ECL which uses GPL-V2
2014-07-08T02:47:47Z Zhivago: Doesn't ECL have an option for the LGPL?
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2014-07-08T02:48:34Z drmeister: Zhivago: I'm looking through the headers to the Common Lisp source - all I see is GPL-V2
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2014-07-08T02:49:14Z drmeister: Hang on.   format.lsp is in the public domain from CMU.
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2014-07-08T02:49:50Z Zhivago: It's probably highly illegal -- most of these licenses are. :)
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2014-07-08T02:51:11Z drmeister: Zhivago: I don't follow...
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2014-07-08T02:52:02Z Zhivago: Most of these projects violate their own licenses in exciting ways due to programmers being terrible lawyers and not caring.
2014-07-08T02:52:16Z Zhivago: Fortunately there's no money in chasing up violations, so no-one seems to care.
2014-07-08T02:52:56Z drmeister: I understand.   I like that "no money in chasing up violations".
2014-07-08T02:52:58Z Zhivago: Which means that you could probably stick the cheesemonger's license on it, and all you'd get would be a few sternly written emails.
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2014-07-08T02:54:32Z drmeister: defpackage.lsp  - Copyright Boeing Co.
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2014-07-08T02:57:09Z loke: In a corporate setting, these licenses matter very much
2014-07-08T02:58:28Z Zhivago: In which case they can lend you a lawyer.
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2014-07-08T03:00:15Z loke: Point being, if you set your license to be GPL, we won't use your code. If you set it to, for example, BSD, we might. We're not an unusual company, so the point is that your choice of license most definitely affects how your code is used.
2014-07-08T03:00:44Z drmeister: I'll see if my University IP people have an opinion.   I guess I'm not wed to the GPL-V2 given that the ECL CL source code contains different licenses from file to file.
2014-07-08T03:01:52Z drmeister: I am wed to the GPL-V2 for the CL source code though - unless someone replaces it with other CL code - which would be interesting.
2014-07-08T03:03:24Z drmeister: Interesting in that the interface between the CL code and the underlying C++ code involves about a hundred C++ functions.
2014-07-08T03:03:44Z drmeister: SBCL is BSD-style license.
2014-07-08T03:05:09Z phadthai: drmeister: ECL is supposed to officially be LGPLv2, although some source files might disagree
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2014-07-08T03:06:56Z drmeister: loke: What about the LGPL?    Do companies have problems with that?
2014-07-08T03:07:42Z loke: drmeister: Yes, in general.
2014-07-08T03:08:01Z loke: drmeister: However, LGPL is sometimes OK if the company feels that the effort of complying is worth it.
2014-07-08T03:08:32Z loke: I don't think my employer uses any LGPL, although I don't think we have an outright ban on it
2014-07-08T03:09:03Z loke: Complying with the LGPL is a hassle, and the benefits really have to outweigh the drawbacks
2014-07-08T03:09:20Z phadthai: I recommend MIT/BSD but I'm no lawyer, and if you already depend on LGPL code then it might not matter to license it under the LGPL
2014-07-08T03:09:25Z loke: That said, some developers don't want companies to integrate their code, in which case GPL is a good choice
2014-07-08T03:09:37Z loke: phadthai: Agree
2014-07-08T03:10:41Z loke: If you're OK with others using your code, then BSD is the way to go. If you want to retain control then GPL is better for you
2014-07-08T03:11:09Z drmeister: When I look at LLVM/Clang vs GCC there is a lesson there - the more permissive license of LLVM/Clang has allowed LLVM/Clang to leapfrog GCC and my code wouldn't be possible without LLVM/Clang.
2014-07-08T03:11:33Z loke: Or, if you want to relinguish control altogether (do whatever you like kinda thing), then there is always CC-Zero
2014-07-08T03:11:36Z phadthai: and retain control here is subjective of course: you always remain in control of your own tree and code, but GPL would theoretically force users to contribute any changes/enhancements they make
2014-07-08T03:11:41Z drmeister: I don't want to retain control - I'm a professor - I want people to use it.
2014-07-08T03:12:00Z loke: drmeister: BSD is the way to go then
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2014-07-08T03:14:01Z loke: phadthai: Well GPL forces the changes to be contributed back as GPL, but not necessarily contributed back to you directly. There are more restrictive licenses that forces the users to submit all changes to you directly. Those licenses are pretty effective at stifling the community though. :-)  (I think C-Kermit used that kind of license?)
2014-07-08T03:14:24Z ahungry: I love gpl
2014-07-08T03:15:30Z loke: ahungry: What aspects of it do you love?
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2014-07-08T03:16:14Z ahungry: I think GPL protects the little guy - if you make something amazing and it is not copyleft, a company can take it, improve to the point where your original is obsolete, and release (in process making yours almost useless)
2014-07-08T03:16:18Z loke: I respect the GPL for what it does, but I don't love it, and I generally don't GPL license my code because I have no interest in maintaining that level of control of my code.
2014-07-08T03:16:35Z ahungry: If your code is GPL, then they will have to give that code out again, giving you return on investment of your original code
2014-07-08T03:17:38Z loke: ahungry: Like I said, I respect that. And I was more positive to GPL in the past because I wanted to ensure the "freedom" of _my_ code.
2014-07-08T03:18:14Z loke: I've changed opinion a bit though, and now I'm taking a more laissez-faire attitude towards it
2014-07-08T03:19:12Z Zhivago: Generally, I like the LGPL.
2014-07-08T03:19:20Z drmeister: I think the GPL was somewhat stifling to development of the GCC.
2014-07-08T03:19:30Z Zhivago: It seems to give a good balance between the return on investment and utility.
2014-07-08T03:19:54Z Zhivago: That's why GCC has the exciting LGPL dual licencing, doesn't it?
2014-07-08T03:20:40Z loke: Zhivago: GCC doesn't have the LGPL license. It's GPL, expect for the libgss library
2014-07-08T03:20:42Z loke: libgcc
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2014-07-08T03:21:13Z ahungry: I like the AGPLv3 since it has the maximum freedom
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2014-07-08T03:21:33Z loke: ahungry: CC-Zero has more freedom for the user :-)
2014-07-08T03:22:42Z drmeister wonders if their's a caffeine-free version of CC-Zero.   He needs all the help he can get to fight off the shakes.
2014-07-08T03:22:45Z loke: http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/
2014-07-08T03:23:04Z ahungry: haha cc-zero
2014-07-08T03:23:05Z drmeister: s/their's/theres/g
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2014-07-08T03:23:58Z loke: That's pretty much as free as it gets, and does as much as it can to free you of any responsibilities
2014-07-08T03:24:39Z ahungry: I think GPL is like take a penny leave a penny, you can have the penny if you plan to put one back at some point, while others are like the people who empty the take a penny leave a penny jar when some nice people had filled it up
2014-07-08T03:25:57Z loke: ahungry: Well, I don't agree. You're not "taking" anything when you copy a piece of code. Nothing disappears from the original, which means the analogy fails.
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2014-07-08T03:26:47Z ahungry: The investment on time is not reciprocated, its like saying all digital items should be free
2014-07-08T03:26:52Z ahungry: since the original is never lost
2014-07-08T03:27:17Z loke: That said, my issues with the GPL is not about the idea of returning to the community. I'm all for that. I'm converned, however, with the fact that I can't link GPL-licensed code in a commercial piece of software, even if my changes to the GPL-part of the code is contributed back.
2014-07-08T03:27:24Z ahungry: GPL's payment is that you pay it forward and keep it open, BSD and MIT is obviously better if you like to just take things and attempt to profit off others work
2014-07-08T03:27:47Z ahungry: Well, you could, you'd just have to open source your commercial work :)
2014-07-08T03:28:27Z pjb: That's the whole point: users of commercial software should have the sources too!  and be able to modify them for their own specific needs too!  and be able to distribute those changes for the few people who have the same specific needs too!
2014-07-08T03:28:41Z loke: ahungry: Or, I could use non-GPL code. The point is that I produce quite a bit of BSD-licensed code, and I don't mind if it becomes part of commercial code. If I did mind, I'd be licensing under a different license.
2014-07-08T03:29:00Z ahungry: for sure, different strokes for different folks :D
2014-07-08T03:29:11Z loke: ahungry: Excatly.
2014-07-08T03:29:29Z drmeister: Yeah - there's been countless arguments about this - all these licenses are still here.
2014-07-08T03:29:36Z pjb: And while you as an individual programmer is all in favor of contributing back, commercial enterprises are too afraid to do so, so basically they just profit from free software without contributing back.
2014-07-08T03:30:43Z drmeister: The counter point is that Apple and Google and lots of other companies have contributed stuff to LLVM/Clang.
2014-07-08T03:30:43Z pjb: And don't forget that producing GPL software or GPL derived works, doesn't forces you to distribute it!  It only forces you to give the sources and a GPL license to the people to whom you sell it!
2014-07-08T03:30:52Z loke: pjb: Well to be fair, a lot of companies actually do contribute back. And in many cases they contribute more than then know, because the individual teams at the companies decide to open-source code under the inidivudual names instead of under the corporate name.
2014-07-08T03:31:28Z pjb: Not a lot of software customers will care about setting up shop selling the very same software that gives them a competitive advantage.
2014-07-08T03:32:03Z pjb: But the point here is that programmers working at those customers have access to the sources, eg. ten years later when you're retired in a Bahamas island.
2014-07-08T03:32:35Z ahungry: Can a business get around the GPL by having a customer sign a EULA or contract that the customer agrees NOT to request the source of a GPL project provided by said business?
2014-07-08T03:32:48Z pjb: loke: this is a little iffy wrt work contracts…
2014-07-08T03:33:05Z ahungry: so customer could request the source (and the GPL code would have to be released per GPL), but the customer would have broken their contract/eula?
2014-07-08T03:33:09Z pjb: ahungry: I don't think so, that would be a GPL violation.
2014-07-08T03:33:11Z loke: pjb: yes, depends a bit on juristiction etc.
2014-07-08T03:33:30Z ahungry: in GPL it says you can charge customers a "reasonable" fee to provide them the source when requesting it
2014-07-08T03:33:37Z ahungry: I wonder what the limit on "reasonable" is
2014-07-08T03:33:43Z loke: ahungry: No, not unless the copyright holderof the GPL code is yourself, in which case that would simply be the same as a dual-licensing
2014-07-08T03:34:01Z pjb: ahungry: it doesn't say that you can't charge any fee you want to provide the (binary) software in the first place.
2014-07-08T03:34:05Z loke: ahungry: a million dollars would not be reasonable
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2014-07-08T03:34:36Z loke: the source fee would cover postage and shipping and stuff
2014-07-08T03:34:44Z pjb: Cost of copying and providing source code on machine readable support: $10.  Cost of providing a binary executable tuned and linked for customer's system: $100,000.00
2014-07-08T03:34:56Z loke: pjb: exactly
2014-07-08T03:35:10Z ahungry: Right, you can sell the commercial for what you want, but what if I sold a GPL game on Android app store for $1, but my cost to provide the source was $10,000 because i wanted to provide it in handwritten cursive on legal paper?
2014-07-08T03:35:27Z loke: ahungry: No. That would not be reasonable
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2014-07-08T03:37:13Z pjb: But you could sell the app store app for $1,000.00 and provide the sources for free on the Internet, or for S&H cost.
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2014-07-08T03:47:56Z drmeister: I wrestled my build system into submission and I was finally able to compile everything on Linux and OS X.  I separated the external libraries into a separate git repository.
2014-07-08T03:48:27Z drmeister: I also installed "tmux" - - a much, much better terminal multiplexer than "screen".
2014-07-08T03:48:35Z loke: yes
2014-07-08T03:48:36Z loke: it is
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2014-07-08T03:49:25Z drmeister: I can run my static analyzer on 16 cores on a computer at work - it only takes four hours now.
2014-07-08T03:50:06Z loke: drmeister: I have an 80-core machine here. You want me to test anythign?
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2014-07-08T03:50:42Z joe-w-bimedina: how did you get 80 cores?
2014-07-08T03:50:56Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: Umm... Bought the computer?
2014-07-08T03:51:06Z joe-w-bimedina: can I have a link?
2014-07-08T03:51:08Z drmeister: loke: As soon as my IP office says I can pull the trigger - I'll release this thing.
2014-07-08T03:51:51Z joe-w-bimedina: congratulation,  looking forward to the doc.  will it be out soon
2014-07-08T03:52:42Z drmeister: joe-w-bimedina: Who are you asking which question?
2014-07-08T03:53:08Z joe-w-bimedina: you drmeister, I would like to start reading up on your lisp
2014-07-08T03:53:15Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: Sure. This is the one: http://www.oracle.com/us/products/servers-storage/servers/x86/sun-server-x2-8/overview/index.html
2014-07-08T03:53:41Z loke: Now I realise they have the X4-8 which can have 120 cores. I should upgrade.
2014-07-08T03:53:46Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks loke: how many flops
2014-07-08T03:53:59Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: I have no idea
2014-07-08T03:54:03Z loke: Just look it up :-)
2014-07-08T03:54:19Z joe-w-bimedina: will do, that is a bad machine there
2014-07-08T03:54:20Z drmeister: joe-w-bimedina: I don't have much yet.   I wrote two blog posts on the weekend:    drmeister.wordpress.com    - O
2014-07-08T03:54:35Z drmeister: I'm just feeling out wordpress.
2014-07-08T03:54:39Z loke: Hmm, sorry. It's not that machine
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2014-07-08T03:55:30Z loke: It's an older model of the X4-8 I think
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2014-07-08T03:55:41Z loke: 0.5 TB of RAM
2014-07-08T03:55:47Z loke: Very nice box
2014-07-08T03:55:49Z joe-w-bimedina: drmeister: can't wait to see it, this is pretty exciting
2014-07-08T03:56:12Z joe-w-bimedina: wow 0.5TB how much did you end up paying?
2014-07-08T03:56:43Z loke: I have no idea. I have to ask the purchasing department :-)
2014-07-08T03:56:51Z loke: We use it for benchmarking
2014-07-08T03:57:06Z loke: But I know that it was much cheaper than what you might expect
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2014-07-08T03:58:48Z joe-w-bimedina: purchasing dept...wow! so you guts are all real pros,  its an honor ,  I would love to get one, then you can do gpu accelerated on top of that
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2014-07-08T04:00:27Z loke: I checked
2014-07-08T04:00:33Z loke: It was over 100k USD actually
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2014-07-08T04:00:56Z loke: No not as cheap as I thought
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2014-07-08T04:01:31Z joe-w-bimedina: man guess I better  keep pushing the limits if ? I'm going to get one of those
2014-07-08T04:01:55Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: You don't want to use that machine for GPU work. It does have 16 PCIe slots, but for GPU grids you probably want smaller machines.
2014-07-08T04:02:27Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: I don't think you'd be able to put more than maybe two GPU cards in there anyway because of cooling problems. That thing gets prettyu hot without any GPU cards
2014-07-08T04:03:35Z joe-w-bimedina: I would love to get a gpu grid, I never knew what it was called befor but I would love to get something I can keep adding gpu's too something to grow with, is something like that cheap
2014-07-08T04:04:15Z loke: We have customers with pretty big GPU grids. They have machines with 3 (or was it 4?) Nvidia K-40's in each box
2014-07-08T04:04:23Z loke: Then they have 10 or so boxes of those
2014-07-08T04:04:30Z loke: http://www.nvidia.com/object/tesla-servers.html
2014-07-08T04:05:16Z loke: They are running financial pricing models on them
2014-07-08T04:05:37Z joe-w-bimedina: so you don't have to use opencl with those or yes?
2014-07-08T04:06:11Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: Our models are written using CUDA
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2014-07-08T04:06:28Z loke: Now a customer can write their own models of course, and they can use whatever they want
2014-07-08T04:07:13Z joe-w-bimedina: so it is not just an automatic speed increase then?  I could work with that...love to get Trusty up to 1.4 TFLOPS though
2014-07-08T04:07:35Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: No. You have to program specifically against the GPU hardware
2014-07-08T04:07:54Z joe-w-bimedina: still cool I was going to do that any way
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2014-07-08T04:09:11Z joe-w-bimedina: If you ever get a chance to benchmark your 80 core i would love to hear the results
2014-07-08T04:10:29Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: I have it right here. I've already run a bunch of benchmarks on it.
2014-07-08T04:10:31Z loke: It's fast.
2014-07-08T04:10:32Z loke: :-)
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2014-07-08T04:11:05Z joe-w-bimedina: I meant flops, for some reason hearing the word TFLOP makes my mouth water
2014-07-08T04:11:28Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: Well, GPU's are much better if all you want is a Tflop number.
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2014-07-08T04:11:57Z loke: The Tflop number may or may not be completely irrelevant though. It all comes down to what you need to do.
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2014-07-08T04:12:46Z joe-w-bimedina: figured 1.75 TFLOPS would make my cuda code over 60 times faster,  all for 175 bucks,
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2014-07-08T04:13:07Z Zhivago: Don't forget the cost of i/o.
2014-07-08T04:13:08Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: Do you rely on double-precision arithmetic?
2014-07-08T04:13:20Z Zhivago: Memory is largely i/o bound, these days.
2014-07-08T04:13:24Z loke: if you can make do with single-prec, then the GPU cards are very cheap
2014-07-08T04:13:33Z loke: if you want good double-prec, then the price baloons
2014-07-08T04:14:32Z joe-w-bimedina: well when I get the gpu accelerator it will be to speed up opencv functions that take .033 seconds to run
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2014-07-08T04:14:37Z joe-w-bimedina: or more
2014-07-08T04:14:59Z joe-w-bimedina: that is the sped of video frames
2014-07-08T04:15:05Z joe-w-bimedina: speed
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2014-07-08T04:41:50Z drmeister: loke: I just started using tmux with emacs - do you do that as well?
2014-07-08T04:42:42Z drmeister: I haven't seen any yet but are there any problems with overlapping key bindings?
2014-07-08T04:44:23Z drmeister: I connected into a machine where I'd abandoned an emacs session using my iPhone and a terminal app - it worked flawlessly.   We live in an age of marvels.
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2014-07-08T04:52:34Z pjb: drmeister: look at the emacs control key bindings; of the 32 of them, a few of them are not quite useful. C-t, C-z for example. (it depends on people of course.  I don't use C-t often so I use C-t for ratpoison.  I almost never use C-z, so I use that for screen.  On the other hand, I use C-a all the time in emacs, so as default escape for screen, it wasn't good at all.
2014-07-08T04:53:14Z drmeister: ratpoison?
2014-07-08T04:53:32Z Bike: it's a window manager.
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2014-07-08T04:53:46Z Bike: so called because it has no mouse use as a design goal, i think.
2014-07-08T04:53:48Z ahungry: I use Super V for my escape bind on stumpwm (successor to ratpoison)
2014-07-08T04:54:32Z ahungry: that way it rarely interferes with any apps since most dont use the super key in any way
2014-07-08T04:55:48Z drmeister: pjb: I agree with the C-a interference between screen and emacs.  PITA
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2014-07-08T04:58:07Z ck_: that's just the default though, I'm still happily using screen; my escape is `
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2014-07-08T04:58:15Z nicdev: can someone shed some light on what my be the issue here, http://paste.lisp.org/display/143118 on trying to load Commonqt with quicklisp
2014-07-08T04:58:40Z nicdev: the process worked with SBCL 1.1.18
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2014-07-08T05:03:09Z phadthai: ahungry: irt to agpl, more "freedom" in the definition of the fsf, but less actual freedom :)
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2014-07-08T05:08:18Z pjb: drmeister: if you must switch to another window manager, you may want to skip ratpoison and go to stumpwm directly (it's the "successor" of ratpoison; ratpoison is written in C; stumpwm in Common Lisp).
2014-07-08T05:08:22Z phadthai: i.e. so "free" that noone can use the code for real work, except perhaps mandated things which should be open source for the people (social capital), and this has worthy potential uses, which I respect, for things like voting machines (even if it's unlikely to be used there, unfortunately)
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2014-07-08T05:09:38Z drmeister: pjb: When I get to that stage I was going to expose Qt in Clasp.
2014-07-08T05:09:40Z pjb: The AGPL requires that you provide the sources of your server if it is derived work of AGPL code, so that people may 1- run their own version of the server, 2- check that your server doesn't send their data to the NSA, MI5, MIS or RG.
2014-07-08T05:09:54Z phadthai: yes
2014-07-08T05:10:09Z pjb: In short: DO NOT USE any server that is not AGPL and of which you've not read the sources.
2014-07-08T05:10:23Z pjb: no google+, no facebook, no twitter.
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2014-07-08T05:10:49Z pjb: (twitter is 70% millitaries and spies ops).
2014-07-08T05:10:55Z phadthai: and: do not use any AGPL, if you can't respect that type of engagement
2014-07-08T05:11:03Z pjb: right.
2014-07-08T05:11:11Z phadthai: but I won't argue more, because I agree with you :)
2014-07-08T05:11:33Z pjb: Indeed, they can always implement proprietary spying code, as the NSA did.
2014-07-08T05:12:38Z joe-w-bimedina: trying to figure out my types https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/e0dd645a1bb997cd89e3 and how to add functionality to them.  as they are now I create a POINT object with (defparameter a (point 0 0))  ,   I can then mem-aref it like this: (mem-aref (c-pointer a) :int) and get 0,  I can use my (SETF XX) method at the gist to setf the X slot of the CV-POINT class like this, to three: (setf (xx a) 3), then use the XX method to access the 3 no pro
2014-07-08T05:12:38Z joe-w-bimedina: blem like this: (XX 3), but when I use mem-aref again like this: (mem-aref a :int) it is still a 0.  How to I change my translate-to/from-foreign  methods to make so when I run the last mem-aref  I get a 3.  the doc. doesn't say how translate-to-foreign gets called or what calls it and I can't princ the values inside translate-to-foreign
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2014-07-08T05:32:44Z H4ns: pjb: how do you know that the server that you're interacting with runs the source that you've read?
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2014-07-08T05:33:34Z H4ns: pjb: how do you verify the correctness of the compilers involved and the operating system, as well as the networking and encryption code?
2014-07-08T05:34:19Z phadthai: you can do the latter as a maintainer up to a certain point, but not the former, imo
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2014-07-08T05:35:28Z H4ns: phadthai: "Assignment statistics:
2014-07-08T05:35:28Z H4ns: Reason                                                 Count
2014-07-08T05:35:28Z H4ns: ------------------------------------------------------------
2014-07-08T05:35:28Z H4ns: error                                                     82
2014-07-08T05:35:31Z H4ns: historic claim                                       462,211
2014-07-08T05:35:34Z H4ns: no facility found in range                             1,212
2014-07-08T05:35:38Z H4ns: other family member                                    9,951
2014-07-08T05:35:41Z H4ns: previously used facility                              96,144
2014-07-08T05:35:44Z H4ns: previously used provider in other nearby facility     49,174
2014-07-08T05:35:47Z H4ns: random assignment rule                               408,287
2014-07-08T05:35:50Z H4ns: ------------------------------------------------------------
2014-07-08T05:35:52Z H4ns: total                                              1,027,061
2014-07-08T05:35:55Z H4ns: fuck
2014-07-08T05:36:02Z H4ns: but look, beautiful tables created with format!
2014-07-08T05:36:03Z phadthai: heh
2014-07-08T05:36:06Z H4ns: on-topic ftw
2014-07-08T05:36:34Z hitecnologys: H4ns: huh, looks nice.
2014-07-08T05:36:53Z hitecnologys: H4ns: but what does all these data mean?
2014-07-08T05:37:12Z H4ns: hitecnologys: that is proprietary information, i'd have to kill you after i told you.
2014-07-08T05:37:21Z phadthai: if he told you, you might have to die
2014-07-08T05:37:24Z hitecnologys: H4ns: ah, OK then.
2014-07-08T05:37:28Z phadthai: ah, too late :)
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2014-07-08T05:39:56Z theos notices a red dot on hitecnologys's chest
2014-07-08T05:40:11Z hitecnologys: "Meantime on #lisp"
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2014-07-08T05:40:49Z hitecnologys: theos: no, it can't be. Who shoots in chest? It has to be neck or head to be sure.
2014-07-08T05:40:58Z joe-w-bimedina: is this the way you call call-next-method tho get the x member of your class? (call-next-method 'x)
2014-07-08T05:41:04Z phadthai: "Only on Freenode #lisp"
2014-07-08T05:42:14Z moore33: joe-w-medina:no. You don't have a "class" inside a method.
2014-07-08T05:42:16Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: it depends on context. CALL-NEXT-METHOD just calls next method in chain of methods (less specific by default).
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2014-07-08T05:43:50Z joe-w-bimedina: so passing as a symbol is correct like this 'x ?    i did (call-next-method 'z) and it didnt complain but I have no z member
2014-07-08T05:43:52Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: I may assume you don't fully understand how methods work. I suggest you read appropriate PCL chapter or CLHS then.
2014-07-08T05:44:40Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: yes, symbol is passed by quoting it.
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2014-07-08T05:45:24Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm studying them now,  wasnt sure it took a symbol... what calls translate-into-foreign
2014-07-08T05:45:27Z moore33: It is not likely to be correct at all.
2014-07-08T05:45:29Z phadthai: if you search for CLOS you will find various tutorials too, other than what PCL has
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2014-07-08T05:46:18Z joe-w-bimedina: on gigamonkeys now but trying to apply it to translate-into-foreign,
2014-07-08T05:48:22Z joe-w-bimedina: if anyone can help me with that long question above that would be great, would help me understand this
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2014-07-08T05:49:34Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to do.
2014-07-08T05:50:21Z phadthai: sorry that I am also confused
2014-07-08T05:52:21Z joe-w-bimedina: my types are at the top of the page,  what part of that long post don't you get
2014-07-08T05:52:51Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: all of it.
2014-07-08T05:53:04Z joe-w-bimedina: here it is again:
2014-07-08T05:53:07Z joe-w-bimedina:  trying to figure out my types https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/e0dd645a1bb997cd89e3 and how to add functionality to them.  as they are now I create a POINT object with (defparameter a (point 0 0))  ,   I can then mem-aref it like this: (mem-aref (c-pointer a) :int) and get 0,  I can use my (SETF XX) method at the gist to setf the X slot of the CV-POINT class like this, to three: (setf (xx a) 3), then use the XX method to access the 3 no pro
2014-07-08T05:53:07Z joe-w-bimedina: <joe-w-bimedina> blem like this: (XX 3), but when I use mem-aref again like this: (mem-aref a :int) it is still a 0.  How to I change my translate-to/from-foreign  methods to make so when I run the last mem-aref  I get a 3.  the doc. doesn't say how translate-to-foreign gets called or what calls it and I can't princ the values inside translate-to-foreign
2014-07-08T05:53:22Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: please leave and do not come back.  thank you.
2014-07-08T05:53:54Z joe-w-bimedina: didn't mean that rude,
2014-07-08T05:54:09Z joe-w-bimedina: it seems easy to understand to me,
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2014-07-08T05:56:06Z joe-w-bimedina: I can create a point object and mem-aref it but when set the slot value with my (setf xx) method and mem-aref it the value did not update in the point object
2014-07-08T05:56:29Z joe-w-bimedina: makes more sense when you look at the type
2014-07-08T05:57:40Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: you're making no sense. Please come back when you sober up.
2014-07-08T05:58:30Z joe-w-bimedina: I'll work up a better presentation, not drunk though:)
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2014-07-08T06:00:39Z H4ns: hitecnologys: it is pointless.  he has been doing this on various other channels for many many months.  trouble is: no progress is apparent.  he is bumping from lack of clue to lack of clue, asking a question for every little stumbling block he encounters.
2014-07-08T06:01:10Z H4ns: hitecnologys: at the same time, he is completely certain and convinced that his design and methodology are sound.  he even likes to use the word "professional".
2014-07-08T06:01:35Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I see.
2014-07-08T06:01:36Z H4ns: hitecnologys: i find it rather annoying to have him in my channels, but my tolerance is too low, i'll admit that.
2014-07-08T06:02:39Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry if i'm annoying but the doc. on translate-to-foreign is not good/enough, I just could use help understanding it
2014-07-08T06:03:32Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: no, all the help that you've been offered over the last year did not get you going.  there is no hope that any further help will get you over the hump.
2014-07-08T06:04:10Z joe-w-bimedina: I wrote 30000 lines of code since last year, just new to classes is all
2014-07-08T06:04:32Z H4ns: m(
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2014-07-08T06:05:08Z joe-w-bimedina: it is specific things I ask for help on, I can hold my own on alot of stuff, I have proof
2014-07-08T06:05:24Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: go away.
2014-07-08T06:06:53Z joe-w-bimedina: I don't know if you speak for everbody, but I'll make a good post and up the link to it and if anybody else wants to help... otherwise I'll keep studying,
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2014-07-08T06:08:27Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: i speak for myself only.  keep studying.  you'll get better responses if your questions show some ability for abstracting.  for starters, you could refrain from referring to your concrete program when you ask a question, and instead formulate them in abstract ways
2014-07-08T06:08:58Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: often enough, you will encounter that you can answer your own question if you detach your problem from the program that you're working on.
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2014-07-08T06:10:02Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: and if you don't encounter that effect, then you're maybe not ready for writing programs yet.  in that case, you may want to read a book like SICP to gather some fundamentals.
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2014-07-08T06:12:06Z joe-w-bimedina: I will and thank you for being patient, from now on I will make sure I make a clear and concise presentation of my issue out of respect, I do respect you all for how good you are and you have gotten me to the point to where I can do some amazing stuff and that did get me overexcited and I do admit I was maybe overzealous in my last post. Trust me now I am doing alot of studying of PCL and do work 16 hours 7 days a week a day trying to impro
2014-07-08T06:12:06Z joe-w-bimedina: ve at this
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2014-07-08T06:42:30Z Enfors: Good morning, guys
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2014-07-08T06:45:17Z phadthai: joe-w-bimedina: just BTW: resting is also important for learning, and idly reading what others have done can be a great source of inspiration
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2014-07-08T06:46:53Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm studying giogamonkeys, now,  I love this too much to rest,  I also keep an eye on some of the conversations sometimes to see if I can pick stuff up
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2014-07-08T07:02:22Z ck_: o_O
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2014-07-08T07:49:10Z Guthur: is there a way to define a type based of a slot-value
2014-07-08T07:49:53Z Guthur: wait that's not the complete problem
2014-07-08T07:50:40Z Guthur: satisfies will allow that, but I want to use the lambda-list of deftype to determine what that slot value should be
2014-07-08T07:51:26Z Guthur: actually that's not what i want either, sorry premature querying
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2014-07-08T08:01:31Z joe-w-bimedina: why is (truncate 100.999999) equal 101, I'm trying to match what  c does, drop the decimal place entirely, and this will put a kink in my code as I am working with big random floats.  id there a function that drops the decimal place entirely. btw (floor 100.999999) does the same thing
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2014-07-08T08:03:16Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: type 100.999999 to your repl.
2014-07-08T08:03:28Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: you will see that 101.0 is printed.
2014-07-08T08:03:31Z moore33: joe-w-bimedina: try 100.999999d0
2014-07-08T08:03:37Z ck_: (if you're using single flotas)
2014-07-08T08:03:53Z moore33: Never say that #lisp isn't helpful :)
2014-07-08T08:03:59Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: also consider *read-default-float-format*
2014-07-08T08:04:31Z mal_: as a general rule, avoid floating point unless you know what you're doing. And unless you've had several courses in numerical algorithms, you don't know what you're doing :)
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2014-07-08T08:04:58Z joe-w-bimedina: ok so float 100.999999 is 101 , thank you
2014-07-08T08:05:05Z b80905: Hi. How does one do pretty-printing in CL?
2014-07-08T08:05:22Z H4ns: b80905: one uses the built-in pretty printer.
2014-07-08T08:05:30Z H4ns: b80905: you may want to ask a more specific question.
2014-07-08T08:06:05Z H4ns: b80905: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw60/CLHS/Body/22_b.htm before you ask
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2014-07-08T08:07:30Z ck_: H4ns: I don't know if you got the little slime exchange yesterday, but stassats doesn't do slime patches. If you don't insist on me trying to get the result of our discussion to someone who does, I'll either drop it or maybe post it as a comment on one of the existing issue threads.
2014-07-08T08:08:04Z H4ns: ck_: why not just open a pull request?
2014-07-08T08:09:24Z ck_: because this is so minor. but okay.
2014-07-08T08:09:54Z H4ns: ck_: it is a nice feature.  thank you for implementing it.  i'd like to see it in slime, and as it is small, it may have a chance.
2014-07-08T08:11:58Z ck_: I'll go learn how to github properly after work
2014-07-08T08:13:16Z H4ns: ck_: the basic steps are: fork the slime repository to your account, commit the change to a branch in your fork, open a pull request from your branch to the upstream repository.  the latter can be done by going to the upstream in the web interface and clicking on the green compare & pull request button, then selecting your fork as source.
2014-07-08T08:15:07Z ck_: thank you.
2014-07-08T08:16:12Z b80905: H4ns: It turns out that the built-in printer suits me fine. I thought pretty-printing would be more complex and the built-in printer would simply display everything on one line.
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2014-07-08T08:44:16Z H4ns: ck_: obviously, i can also do the pull request to save you the effort.
2014-07-08T08:45:21Z Guthur: out of curosity, what is the feature?
2014-07-08T08:45:52Z H4ns: Guthur: ability to search the slime history when something has already been entered
2014-07-08T08:46:28Z phadthai: other than alt-p?
2014-07-08T08:46:43Z ck_: H4ns: thanks, I'll probably have to learn how to do that sooner or later anyway. I'll do it tonight.
2014-07-08T08:46:44Z H4ns: Guthur: it is a bit hard to describe.  basically, if you evaluated something, say (bar bla blub) and now want to evaluate (foo (bar bla blub)) without referring to *, you can use the feature
2014-07-08T08:47:13Z Guthur: ooh that might be nice
2014-07-08T08:47:14Z H4ns: Guthur: the feature works by making M-p use the mark as the start of the search rather than the start of the line.
2014-07-08T08:47:23Z phadthai: ok
2014-07-08T08:47:47Z H4ns: so in the above example, you'd use (foo C-SPC (bar M-p
2014-07-08T08:48:29Z Guthur: yeah, that sounds pretty good
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2014-07-08T09:13:55Z jusss: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7764535/    (fibonacci 2) -> 2  how to fix ?
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2014-07-08T09:21:48Z loke: jusss: First of all, you should learn about the LOOP macro
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2014-07-08T09:23:30Z jusss: loke: how to fix without loop ?
2014-07-08T09:24:20Z loke: jusss: The proper solution uses LOOP
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2014-07-08T09:24:50Z H4ns: jusss: you cannot define a function inside another function using defun
2014-07-08T09:24:52Z loke: Don't use recursion to emulate loops in Common Lisp. CL does not guarantee TCO optimisation
2014-07-08T09:24:59Z H4ns: jusss: use flet or labels.
2014-07-08T09:25:04Z H4ns: jusss: also what loke says.
2014-07-08T09:25:51Z jusss: @.@
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2014-07-08T09:28:01Z theos: http://www.cliki.net/fibonacci
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2014-07-08T09:29:09Z theos: jusss ^^
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2014-07-08T09:34:33Z Zhivago: And generally, think carefully about why you want nested functions -- they're harder to debug.
2014-07-08T09:37:21Z H4ns: is "@.@" a new word for "thank you"?  or something else?
2014-07-08T09:38:25Z jusss: mean confused
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2014-07-08T09:39:19Z Zhivago: It's crazy eyes from too many drugs.
2014-07-08T09:45:45Z jusss:  (fibonacci 30) should be 832040, in this , (fibonacci 29) is 832040
2014-07-08T09:46:02Z H4ns: jusss: please study the examples that are on the cliki page.
2014-07-08T09:46:50Z H4ns: jusss: if you've been assigned the task as homework, the point is that you understand how the implementation works.  if it is not, then implementing fibonacci is pretty much pointless.
2014-07-08T09:52:34Z jusss: c=a+b; a=b; b=c;
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2014-07-08T10:14:37Z Guthur: how well supported is TCO across the more common implementation
2014-07-08T10:15:06Z Zhivago: SBCL supports it in some cases.
2014-07-08T10:15:19Z Zhivago: Personally, I'm not a fan of implicit TCO.
2014-07-08T10:17:09Z Zhivago: Rather, of relying on implicit TCO.
2014-07-08T10:17:16Z Guthur: ah that makes more sense
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2014-07-08T10:17:25Z Guthur: was about to ask where it's explicit
2014-07-08T10:17:37Z Guthur: ie. you have tell the compiler to use
2014-07-08T10:17:40Z Zhivago: When you mark the call as being tco.
2014-07-08T10:17:56Z Zhivago: I'd like the compiler to optimize TCO when it can and wants to.
2014-07-08T10:18:16Z Zhivago: I'd like the compiler to reject my code when my expected TCO isn't TCO'd.
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2014-07-08T10:18:44Z Zhivago: It's relatively easy to introduce backtracking into previously TCO code by accident.
2014-07-08T10:19:10Z Guthur: sure, seems a sensible enough desire
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2014-07-08T10:19:54Z loke: Zhivago: Yes, especially in CL when a seeming innocent macro can do it
2014-07-08T10:20:30Z loke: The classic one is a LET form which can't be TCO'ed if one of the variables being bound is declared special
2014-07-08T10:22:26Z Zhivago: Yeah, it's one of my gripes about scheme -- although I really like named let for loops there.
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2014-07-08T10:25:45Z Zhivago: I'd also like to see explicit TCO calls in javascript.
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2014-07-08T10:27:55Z Guthur thinks the lack of explicit TCO calls is the least of Javascripts problems
2014-07-08T10:29:27Z loke: :-)
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2014-07-08T10:29:50Z Zhivago: Oh, javascript is actually pretty solid -- just mostly misunderstood.
2014-07-08T10:30:02Z phadthai: Guthur: or maybe DOM
2014-07-08T10:30:07Z loke: Zhivago: In what way is it "solid"?
2014-07-08T10:30:23Z Guthur: it's sold in that it follows it's design, that design is just bad
2014-07-08T10:30:29Z Guthur: sold/solid
2014-07-08T10:31:06Z Zhivago: Guthur: Can you be more specific?
2014-07-08T10:32:34Z Guthur: Zhivago: the numerous WAT moments for one. The predominance of doing wildly different things depending on the arguments being passed to a function
2014-07-08T10:32:59Z Guthur: there is something with array's can't quite remember it now
2014-07-08T10:33:00Z loke: Guthur: What "solid design" led to "2"==2 ?
2014-07-08T10:33:11Z Guthur: that's the WAT moments
2014-07-08T10:33:27Z Guthur: there is a pretty famous video on the net with someone going through them
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2014-07-08T10:34:10Z Guthur: it's easy to bash javascript it does have redeeming factors though
2014-07-08T10:34:27Z Zhivago: That wat video is pretty confused.
2014-07-08T10:34:29Z Guthur: lambdas for one
2014-07-08T10:35:04Z Guthur: it's meant to be a little tongue and cheek, I think
2014-07-08T10:35:53Z Guthur: there are some reasonable libraries as well that improve the JS experience
2014-07-08T10:36:35Z Guthur: RequireJS and lodash/underscore would probably be my standard includes for any major project
2014-07-08T10:36:51Z Zhivago: == has some interesting implicit conversions when comparing different types, but they're mostly straight-forward.
2014-07-08T10:37:09Z phadthai: when I used JS extensively (server-side), it seemed decent and extensible, but I also had to code a bunch of C-Spidermonkey classes back then for the features I needed
2014-07-08T10:37:13Z loke: Zhivago: The point is that if JS had "solid design" it wouldn't behave like that.
2014-07-08T10:37:23Z Zhivago: That doesn't even follow.
2014-07-08T10:37:45Z Zhivago: With "2" == 2, it prefers to convert to numbers for comparison rather than strings.
2014-07-08T10:38:13Z Zhivago: Nothing particularly exotic about that.
2014-07-08T10:38:13Z Guthur: but it can catch you out, just like the implicit TCO
2014-07-08T10:38:41Z Guthur: probably more likely to as well, we just stick to strict equality throughout
2014-07-08T10:38:43Z Zhivago: Well, that's what === is for -- it's like EQ, EQL, =, EQUAL, EQUALS, and EQUALP. :)
2014-07-08T10:38:53Z phadthai: right
2014-07-08T10:38:57Z Guthur: though it is uncommon for a dev to accidently use ==
2014-07-08T10:39:02Z Guthur: is/isn't
2014-07-08T10:39:11Z loke: Zhivago: Implicit string/number conversion is not solid in any way, shape, or form. No sane language does that.
2014-07-08T10:39:15Z Zhivago: Well, == mostly does what people mostly want, mostly.
2014-07-08T10:39:25Z Guthur: mostly is the problem
2014-07-08T10:39:37Z Guthur: chasing those bugs is a time sink
2014-07-08T10:39:50Z Zhivago: loke: Well, if implicit string/number conversion is your hangup, then fair enough.
2014-07-08T10:40:21Z loke: Zhivago: That's not the only one, but other people have written much more acutely on the problems with JS. :-)
2014-07-08T10:40:50Z Guthur: to be fair the greatest problem I have had is with our developers
2014-07-08T10:40:54Z Zhivago: They're mostly confused, or similiarly trivial.
2014-07-08T10:41:16Z Guthur: trying to encourage a more functional software engineering approach has been long and hard
2014-07-08T10:42:00Z Guthur: they reach for the imperative tools that JS provides in abundance
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2014-07-08T10:42:09Z phadthai: CL doesn't encourage FP
2014-07-08T10:42:34Z Guthur: tru
2014-07-08T10:42:38Z Guthur: true*
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2014-07-08T10:43:00Z Zhivago: I'm not sure that FP is worth pushing.
2014-07-08T10:43:06Z Guthur: but most CL devs seem to give more worth to the benefits
2014-07-08T10:43:13Z Zhivago: I'd recommend pushing for algorithmic programming instead.
2014-07-08T10:43:21Z Zhivago: Implementing functions with procedures.
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2014-07-08T10:44:42Z Guthur: Zhivago: I'm not a evangelist, but I've seen JS developers mutate data structs and just about every else at the drop of a hat.
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2014-07-08T10:45:14Z Zhivago: Sure, that's because the barrier to entry is low and expectations are low.
2014-07-08T10:45:19Z Guthur: so something starts of as {foo: bar}, and by the end it's {bar: foo, quux: undefined}
2014-07-08T10:45:25Z Zhivago: So you're scraping the bottom of the barrel and coming up turds.
2014-07-08T10:45:49Z Zhivago: I expect that if CL were popular, it would have the same problem, only moresso.
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2014-07-08T10:46:27Z Guthur: and so would just about any language
2014-07-08T10:47:01Z Guthur: could you imagine Haskell with some over engineer tower of babel
2014-07-08T10:47:04Z Guthur: ...oh wait
2014-07-08T10:47:14Z Guthur: hehe, being a little facetious
2014-07-08T10:47:30Z Zhivago: Well, CL provides special tools to help people do terrible things.
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2014-07-08T11:10:10Z theos: o.O
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2014-07-08T12:39:31Z ck_: H4ns: done; https://github.com/slime/slime/pull/172
2014-07-08T12:39:55Z H4ns: nice, thanks!
2014-07-08T12:40:01Z H4ns: *subscribe*
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2014-07-08T12:41:41Z hitecnologys: Can anybody explain to me why this Travis CI is so popular? What's so good about it?
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2014-07-08T12:46:54Z Zhivago: If it's popular there should be 50 million people shouting at you about it on the internet.
2014-07-08T12:47:35Z Guthur: I must need new speakers; because i can not hear them
2014-07-08T12:47:59Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: well, I see it quite often on many repositories on GitHub.
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2014-07-08T12:48:20Z H4ns: hitecnologys: look at the wikipedia page.  it should give you enough explanation.
2014-07-08T12:48:27Z H4ns: hitecnologys: key is: easy integration.
2014-07-08T12:48:41Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I see.
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2014-07-08T13:10:11Z jusss: program stack overflow , clisp on debian, how to solve ?
2014-07-08T13:10:31Z H4ns: jusss: avoid deep recursion.
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2014-07-08T13:12:56Z jusss: H4ns: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7765529/
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2014-07-08T13:13:35Z H4ns: jusss: scroll back.  we've provided you so much information to work with first.
2014-07-08T13:13:43Z jusss: H4ns: this version is for scheme http://codepad.org/VsKtXPWD
2014-07-08T13:13:48Z H4ns: jusss: so?
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2014-07-08T13:36:12Z moore33: jusss: Survey says: use LOOP or other iteration.
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2014-07-08T13:37:20Z jusss: moore33: why it must use LOOP ?
2014-07-08T13:37:54Z Shinmera: Because as people already said the stack is not infinite and TCO is not guaranteed.
2014-07-08T13:38:05Z jusss: moore33: is it not iteration ?
2014-07-08T13:38:52Z Ralt: no, that's recursion: http://pastie.margaine.com/a71db48d-cfa1-42cf-b18d-9268338edd70
2014-07-08T13:38:54Z moore33: jusss: First of all, the problem is very easy to code using LOOP. Second, the recursive solution may blow out the stack for fairly low values of the argument to your function, as you found with 9999.
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2014-07-08T13:46:34Z Zhivago: It becomes easier when you understand that the difference between iteration and recursion as normally stated is backtracking.
2014-07-08T13:47:06Z Zhivago: If you need backtracking, then use recursive mechanisms that supply it like function calls -- if you don't, then use recursive mechanisms that don't, like loops.
2014-07-08T13:48:32Z jusss: Ralt: http://codepad.org/VsKtXPWD  it's not iteration ? but it can compute (fibonacci 999999) , 5 mins
2014-07-08T13:48:57Z Shinmera: Scheme requires TCO, CL does not.
2014-07-08T13:49:04Z H4ns: jusss: that is scheme.  scheme uses tail-recursive invocations for iteration
2014-07-08T13:49:07Z Ralt: jusss: does the function call itself? If that's the case, then it's recursion.
2014-07-08T13:49:20Z moore33: jusss: Do you understand what Tail Call Optimization (TCO) means?
2014-07-08T13:51:24Z Guthur: if it is an assignment problem which requires the use of recursion he will be stuck whether the particular CL implementation supports TCO or not
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2014-07-08T13:51:50Z H4ns: maybe the point is to find that out.
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2014-07-08T13:55:26Z moore33: The recursive solution "works," for many reasonable values. (fib 9999) is a ~2000 digit number.
2014-07-08T13:56:14Z moore33: In some implementations, the recursive version may work as well as the explicitly iterative one.
2014-07-08T13:56:51Z Zhivago: Anyhow, the critical question is -- are you using backtracking? :)
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2014-07-08T14:06:24Z jusss: what the differce between tail-recursive and iteration, google cann't be visited in my country
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2014-07-08T14:07:16Z Shinmera: tail recursive means the function calls itself at the tail (end) of the function. Iteration means it simply repeats a code block.
2014-07-08T14:07:20Z Zhivago: There is no difference.
2014-07-08T14:07:36Z phadthai: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail_call | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iteration#Computing
2014-07-08T14:07:37Z Zhivago: Both exclude backtracking and produce identical flow graphs.
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2014-07-08T14:07:52Z Zhivago: This is because iteration is recursion without backtracking.
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2014-07-08T14:09:46Z Zhivago: Also, for tail recursion the function doesn't need to call itself directly.
2014-07-08T14:11:14Z Zhivago: Probably the important thing here is to understand the difference between a tail-call and a call.
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2014-07-08T14:14:24Z wizzo: on this page in the sample usage section: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc/
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2014-07-08T14:14:33Z wizzo: what do they mean when they say interrupt read-message-loop
2014-07-08T14:14:46Z wizzo: is that specific to the package or a general thing
2014-07-08T14:15:10Z wizzo: the interrupting part not read-message-loop
2014-07-08T14:15:19Z H4ns: wizzo: it means "press C-c C-c"
2014-07-08T14:16:06Z wizzo: oh ok
2014-07-08T14:16:33Z wizzo: is there a way in slime to make it interrupt only this function or will it always kill the whole process?
2014-07-08T14:17:04Z inklesspen: wizzo: oh hey, cl-irc. i've been using that package for the past month or so.
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2014-07-08T14:17:59Z inklesspen: also, i'm pretty sure slime-interrupt (C-c C-c) only interrupts the function; to kill the process you need to use sayoonara
2014-07-08T14:18:01Z Xach: wizzo: interrupting is not killing. you can always continue.
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2014-07-08T14:18:41Z inklesspen: wizzo: what are you using cl-irc for?
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2014-07-08T14:19:28Z wizzo: i must be using it wrong somehow it always kill the whole inferior-lisp process
2014-07-08T14:19:51Z wizzo: inklesspen: i thought a irc bot would be a neat way to learn some common lisp
2014-07-08T14:19:56Z wizzo: and i hate supybot
2014-07-08T14:20:19Z Xach: wizzo: What environment are you using?
2014-07-08T14:20:44Z wizzo: slime with sbcl
2014-07-08T14:20:51Z Xach: Windows?
2014-07-08T14:20:56Z wizzo: os x
2014-07-08T14:21:10Z wizzo: i'll try again
2014-07-08T14:21:12Z Xach: Yes, it seems like you might be using it wrong if it kills the underlying process.
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2014-07-08T14:21:27Z inklesspen: wizzo: heh, i'm writing a dicebot. https://github.com/inklesspen/alea
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2014-07-08T14:23:15Z wizzo: oh never mind, it's doing the right thing now
2014-07-08T14:23:36Z wizzo: inklesspen: hah cool!
2014-07-08T14:23:39Z wizzo: i'll check it out
2014-07-08T14:23:50Z Shinmera: If you want an IRC bot framework instead of a library, you might give Colleen a try https://github.com/Shinmera/colleen
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2014-07-08T14:24:34Z inklesspen: Shinmera: huh, looks pretty nifty
2014-07-08T14:24:56Z inklesspen: i think the way i separated parsing and evaluation works better for my purposes, though.
2014-07-08T14:25:02Z Shinmera: I should rewrite the docs.
2014-07-08T14:25:07Z inklesspen: so i can have multiple command forms that evaluate to the same command
2014-07-08T14:25:22Z Shinmera: You can always relay commands
2014-07-08T14:25:31Z wizzo: that's cool
2014-07-08T14:25:46Z Shinmera: Again, I should sit down one day and write good docs for it.
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2014-07-08T14:27:10Z inklesspen: Shinmera: i'd recommend either wordwrapping your LICENSE file or giving it a .md extension or something so github will wordwrap it.
2014-07-08T14:27:15Z inklesspen: as it is it's kind of hard to read
2014-07-08T14:27:40Z inklesspen: (but i think Artistic 2.0 is pretty broadly compatible with other free software licenses, right?)
2014-07-08T14:27:43Z Shinmera: The Artistic License is not of my doing
2014-07-08T14:27:56Z Shinmera: https://tldrlegal.com/license/artistic-license-2.0-(artistic)
2014-07-08T14:28:03Z inklesspen: true
2014-07-08T14:28:30Z inklesspen: but you ought to make it readable in the github view of your repo
2014-07-08T14:28:52Z Shinmera: That's the first time I hear about that
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2014-07-08T14:29:36Z inklesspen: just as a comparison of how easy it is to read the files: https://github.com/Shinmera/colleen/blob/master/LICENSE vs https://github.com/inklesspen/alea/blob/master/LICENSE
2014-07-08T14:30:11Z inklesspen: (of course the licenses themselves are different)
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2014-07-08T14:30:14Z Shinmera: I don't usually read Licenses
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2014-07-08T14:30:31Z eudoxia: i just look at the asd file to see if it's compatible
2014-07-08T14:30:36Z inklesspen: heh
2014-07-08T14:30:38Z inklesspen: ok
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2014-07-08T14:31:21Z rick-monster: Anyone here hosting their own private quicklisp dist? Says it's possible on the FAQ but undocumented...
2014-07-08T14:31:39Z Xach: I am hosting one!
2014-07-08T14:31:51Z Shinmera: a private one?
2014-07-08T14:31:51Z Xach: semi-private, anyway
2014-07-08T14:31:57Z eudoxia: rick-monster: the cl21 project has one, i think
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2014-07-08T14:34:07Z rick-monster: trying to push work towards CL, and one thing that will help my case is if we can manage our open-source dependencies in a smart way.
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2014-07-08T14:37:06Z Xach: That's a tricky thing. I'm not sure what the best solution is.
2014-07-08T14:37:39Z Xach: I've seen people build the project with quicklisp and then check the quicklisp tree into version control. and copy stuff into local-projects as needed.
2014-07-08T14:37:42Z Xach: not sure how I feel about that.
2014-07-08T14:37:52Z rick-monster: that's what I was thinking about doing!
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2014-07-08T14:38:03Z Xach: well, you certainly wouldn't be alone
2014-07-08T14:38:26Z rick-monster: something seems not quite right about doing that...
2014-07-08T14:38:35Z Xach: The follow-on desire is to inhibit quicklisp from downloading new stuff, and there isn't a straightforward way to do that.
2014-07-08T14:38:57Z eudoxia: version specifiers should see more use
2014-07-08T14:39:00Z Xach: (what happens is developer A wants to use a library, so he does, and it's fetched automatically, but then developer B checks out the tree and it's missing so things don't work)
2014-07-08T14:39:19Z ahungry: Are all quicklisp repositories done in git?
2014-07-08T14:39:34Z Xach: ahungry: No.
2014-07-08T14:40:11Z ahungry: In the asd file, couldn't you do something like "pin-commit: ab32ac" or the equivalent on other sources VC? which would on package load just do a "git checkout <commit-hash>" (or other equivalent)?
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2014-07-08T14:40:34Z Xach: I don't know anything about anything like that.
2014-07-08T14:40:52Z ahungry: ah in git you can checkout a previous commit from any point in the history
2014-07-08T14:41:01Z ahungry: without destroying your latest pulled stuff
2014-07-08T14:41:13Z Xach: Ok, I do know something about that, but where it intersects with asdf and loading I don't know.
2014-07-08T14:41:29Z ahungry: oh it was a suggestion sorry
2014-07-08T14:41:48Z ahungry: if there were a flag like pin-commit that ran the git checkout right before loading it in, I think that would solve people wanting old versions
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2014-07-08T14:42:08Z Xach: How do you run git on windows?
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2014-07-08T14:42:30Z hitecnologys: Xach: mingw
2014-07-08T14:42:33Z ahungry: there are a few, I personally just use cygwin and it works without any trouble for everything i've done in windows native sbcl
2014-07-08T14:42:39Z Xach: Sounds terrible.
2014-07-08T14:42:41Z ahungry: theres also some git gui thing a few of my coworkers use
2014-07-08T14:43:05Z ahungry: yea I hate working in the windows environment myself
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2014-07-08T14:43:27Z hitecnologys: Xach: just stick to SourceTree.
2014-07-08T14:43:29Z Shinmera: I think it's a safe bet to assume a thing on windows is going to be rather terrible.
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2014-07-08T14:44:29Z hitecnologys: Xach: it's propietary, though. If you're OK with that, then SourceTree would be a great choice. I used it for quite some time and I still like it despite the fact that I prefer terminal.
2014-07-08T14:44:32Z Shinmera: eudoxia: Personally I wish asdf had the capability to depend on specific versions and allow multiple system definitions with differing versions at the same time.
2014-07-08T14:44:39Z inklesspen: i use magit :D
2014-07-08T14:44:56Z Xach: The point is more about relying on external programs that might be absent or difficult to install.
2014-07-08T14:45:16Z Xach: I like things that can be done in Common Lisp and like less things that are done with programs that supposedly everyone has, but doesn't, really.
2014-07-08T14:45:28Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: ASDF has capability to depend on specific version.
2014-07-08T14:45:33Z moore33: git client in CL!
2014-07-08T14:45:41Z inklesspen: hm. i bet a pure-lisp git implementation would be cool
2014-07-08T14:45:51Z moore33: *cough*
2014-07-08T14:45:54Z H4ns: together with a pure-lisp ssh client implementation
2014-07-08T14:45:56Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: I miswrote that, I meant more like version specifiers ala 3.1+ or something
2014-07-08T14:46:13Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: ah, I see.
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2014-07-08T14:47:38Z hitecnologys: First we write git. Then we write SSH. After that, we extend QL and ASDF to make use of that. After that, we develop our own Lisp-specific super-flexible VSC and make everyone use it. Then we conquer the world. Easy.
2014-07-08T14:48:00Z Shinmera: Where does the lisp os come into that
2014-07-08T14:48:01Z Xach: Someone already wrote a Lisp-specific super-flexible VCS.
2014-07-08T14:48:08Z Xach: MCVS was it.
2014-07-08T14:48:41Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: somewhere in between.
2014-07-08T14:48:58Z rick-monster: Xach - so is any quicklisp checkout capable to function as a 'server' by putting it in a directory served over http?
2014-07-08T14:49:08Z rick-monster: or is there more to it than that?
2014-07-08T14:50:02Z Xach: rick-monster: more to it than that. but i think it would "just" be a bit of programming to do something like that.
2014-07-08T14:50:31Z Xach: it's easy to query all the metadata you need to make that work, and the file format is simple
2014-07-08T14:53:13Z fortitude: Xach: couldn't you do something like setting *quicklisp-home* to a local dir for your project and just not doing an update-dist?
2014-07-08T14:53:27Z fortitude: not sure if quicklisp can install a specific dist version or not
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2014-07-08T14:54:56Z Xach: quicklisp can install a specific version from the past.
2014-07-08T14:55:09Z Xach: but the issue isn't with updating everything, but with expanding the local contents from the chosen dist version.
2014-07-08T14:55:34Z Xach: there are a number of reasons to pick a subset and want to stick with just that subset and not download more.
2014-07-08T14:56:03Z Xach: i can think of a number of easy hackish fixes, like fmakunbound ql-http:fetch or something.
2014-07-08T14:56:33Z rick-monster: cool! So seems that versioning the whole quicklisp directory will be an adequate solution for now, but *will* be possible one way or another to manage the dist 'properly' if my lisp hacking here really takes off...
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2014-07-08T15:05:11Z fortitude: rick-monster: I'm also attempting to push my employer toward CL at some point; are you doing this for a team, or is it a just-you sort of thing?
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2014-07-08T15:05:35Z rick-monster: it's kind of an anarchistic workplace!
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2014-07-08T15:07:24Z fortitude: rick-monster: I was wondering how you were planning to address stuff like coworkers who don't want to learn emacs, or who might not have the requisite discipline to work with a language like CL
2014-07-08T15:07:34Z rick-monster: we've got this massive creaking perl codebase that was driving me insane, so I just started hacking lisp instead.
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2014-07-08T15:08:52Z eudoxia: i gave a little talk here about CL but we're pretty committed to python (we're a django shop)
2014-07-08T15:08:55Z inklesspen: my plan is to get our python coders using Hy.
2014-07-08T15:09:14Z inklesspen: http://hy.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
2014-07-08T15:09:25Z inklesspen: which is a python-hosted Lisp
2014-07-08T15:09:42Z fortitude: inklesspen: see, I would have though about going the other way with cl-python or similar
2014-07-08T15:10:02Z Zhivago: What are the main advantages of CL for your shop?
2014-07-08T15:10:10Z inklesspen: problem with that: "The project was started in 2006, and is currently (2013) not under active development anymore."
2014-07-08T15:10:35Z eudoxia: Zhivago: python is horrible and makes me hate the entire technology stack i sit on
2014-07-08T15:10:36Z H4ns: Zhivago: "i won't quit if they let me use CL" :)
2014-07-08T15:11:02Z Zhivago: Hmm, those don't sound like objective arguments. You might want to work on it a bit more.
2014-07-08T15:11:14Z inklesspen: (for my point of view, Python is mostly okay and SQLAlchemy is literally the best SQL library I've ever used, and it's Python-only, so...)
2014-07-08T15:12:25Z fortitude: eudoxia: I was curious about a comment you made on Hacker News when Crane got posted there a while back
2014-07-08T15:12:43Z wizzo: inklesspen: how does ping/pong get handled in cl-irc?
2014-07-08T15:12:43Z fortitude: eudoxia: you said that you'd mostly abandoned any sort of ORM-ish thing in favor of straight sql
2014-07-08T15:12:51Z wizzo: is it part of read-message-loop?
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2014-07-08T15:13:35Z fortitude: I've been poking around with some database code lately, and I've found that without some sort of ORM-ish thing, the database queries tend to worm their way into everything else
2014-07-08T15:13:43Z fortitude: crane seemed like kind of an ideal solution
2014-07-08T15:13:57Z rick-monster: fortitude: the bosses here are open-minded about what technologies to use.  However there's some support here for JVM
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2014-07-08T15:14:08Z inklesspen: wizzo: nah, there's an event handler for PING
2014-07-08T15:14:18Z wizzo: oooh of course
2014-07-08T15:14:20Z wizzo: thanks!
2014-07-08T15:14:41Z Shinmera: rick-monster: abcl is a thing
2014-07-08T15:14:52Z fortitude: rick-monster: in my case, what we're using is unspeakably horrible, so pretty much anything would be an improvement -- CL is on the table, but it might not be the right choice
2014-07-08T15:15:08Z eudoxia: fortitude: are you referring to this comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7859579
2014-07-08T15:15:12Z inklesspen: i can't find the cl-irc repo at the moment, but basically everything cl-irc does automatically is an event handler, so you can override it
2014-07-08T15:15:28Z fortitude: eudoxia: yep, that one
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2014-07-08T15:16:02Z jusss: whick implement you use ? clisp is good ?
2014-07-08T15:16:12Z Xach: clisp is not good
2014-07-08T15:16:14Z Xach: sbcl is good
2014-07-08T15:16:17Z Xach: clozure cl is good
2014-07-08T15:16:25Z eudoxia: fortitude: well, i haven't worked on a project without an ORM yet, so i can't know for sure, but often I felt the ORM was more of a burden than anything (especially when dealing with Django's limitations)
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2014-07-08T15:16:40Z eudoxia: fortitude: i still think Crane is a good middle ground and don't think I will be abandoning ORM stuff any time soon
2014-07-08T15:16:44Z jusss: i see
2014-07-08T15:17:21Z rick-monster: I was learning out of paul graham's books, so picked an implementation that did tail-call optimisation! (yes I saw the earlier discussion on this...)
2014-07-08T15:17:38Z inklesspen: speaking only about python ORMs, Django's ORM is pretty shit, but SQLAlchemy's really does save me effort a lot of the time.
2014-07-08T15:17:59Z fortitude: eudoxia: good to know. it seemed to me that having a giant (global, stateful) ball of data -- the db -- in an application was a pretty bad idea
2014-07-08T15:18:01Z inklesspen: (at work we're gradually moving from django to flask+sqlalchemy)
2014-07-08T15:18:02Z Shinmera: For DB I always have a class that just serves as a container for a row with field set/get and insert/update/delete functions.
2014-07-08T15:18:20Z Shinmera: More complex ORM or DB stuff than plain tables makes me cringe
2014-07-08T15:18:22Z fortitude: but without something to help you pull stuff out of database-land and into application data, it seemed like it'd be tricky to manage
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2014-07-08T15:19:11Z fortitude: Shinmera: I suspect that something like datalog might help a lot, because unlike sql, you can actually use the same queries on the database and on application data
2014-07-08T15:19:18Z fortitude: so you lose some of that db/not-db duality
2014-07-08T15:19:33Z inklesspen: Shinmera: the thing i like about ORMs are when you can create a dozen objects, establish relationships between them, and then have the ORM session persist them to the DB in the correct order and manage all the foreign keys.
2014-07-08T15:20:20Z Shinmera: I like to keep db as just tables and manage the rest in-application.
2014-07-08T15:20:28Z eudoxia: Crane doesn't even follow relations automatically, 50% because "muh minimalism" and 50% because i'm a lazy bum
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2014-07-08T15:24:10Z wizzo: inklesspen: not sure i quite get it. i look in event.lisp and it says the default hook for ping is pong
2014-07-08T15:24:17Z wizzo: do i have to say someone enable default hooks?
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2014-07-08T15:24:45Z wizzo: atm my connection stream will time out after a while every time
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2014-07-08T15:28:42Z wizzo: maybe that is something else going wrong
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2014-07-08T15:38:47Z inklesspen: wizzo: I had that same problem. You do have to have the read-message-loop running in order for messages to be read and events handled.
2014-07-08T15:39:14Z inklesspen: wizzo: what I did in alea was spawn a new thread and run read-message-loop in that, so I can still work with the code in the slime repl.
2014-07-08T15:39:28Z inklesspen: feel free to look at my code.
2014-07-08T15:39:47Z inklesspen: not claiming the architecture there is great, because this is the project i'm using to teach myself common lisp
2014-07-08T15:39:57Z inklesspen: but it does work.
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2014-07-08T15:40:20Z inklesspen: (as in, the bot is runnable and you can interact with it, while debugging/enhancing it in slime)
2014-07-08T15:40:40Z wizzo: i am :)
2014-07-08T15:40:44Z wizzo: and that makes sense i guess
2014-07-08T15:40:56Z wizzo: at least these easy to keep running and edit with slime
2014-07-08T15:41:03Z wizzo: that's easy*
2014-07-08T15:41:35Z wizzo: inklesspen: is there an easy way to do this thread stuff without sbcl extensions?
2014-07-08T15:42:08Z Shinmera: bordeaux-threads
2014-07-08T15:42:09Z inklesspen: threads are pretty much implementation-specific, though there may be a library that papers over it.
2014-07-08T15:42:14Z inklesspen: aha, there you go
2014-07-08T15:42:26Z inklesspen: i just figured i'll use the sbcl extension for now and worry about portability later
2014-07-08T15:42:34Z inklesspen: i'm not doing a lot with threads, just spawning one
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2014-07-08T15:43:20Z Shinmera: I got used to starting with bt in the first place since there's usually no reason not to use it right away
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2014-07-08T15:43:51Z wizzo: cool thanks
2014-07-08T15:44:51Z wizzo: this is blowing my mind being able to write this stuff while the bot is still running...
2014-07-08T15:45:25Z inklesspen: wizzo: i think you can actually look at cl-irc's source (protocol.lisp, start-process) it uses various implementations' threading.
2014-07-08T15:45:36Z inklesspen: but bordeaux-threads is probably the better notion
2014-07-08T15:45:59Z hitecnologys: cl-irc is horrible.
2014-07-08T15:46:00Z pjb: jusss: try: http://duckduckgo.com
2014-07-08T15:46:06Z hitecnologys: It needs rewriting.
2014-07-08T15:46:54Z wizzo: what are good alternatives
2014-07-08T15:46:54Z inklesspen: hitecnologys: perhaps, but at the moment it's usable.
2014-07-08T15:47:24Z Ralt: I couldn't get cl-irc to work reliably :|
2014-07-08T15:47:33Z Ralt: that was on osx though, might be different on other platforms
2014-07-08T15:47:43Z Shinmera: there's trivial-irc
2014-07-08T15:47:46Z inklesspen: (ralt: i'm using it on osx and it's fine for me so far)
2014-07-08T15:47:48Z hitecnologys: inklesspen: yes, it is usable, but that doesn't change the fact that it has very obcsure design.
2014-07-08T15:48:02Z Shinmera: or if you want to tempt fate you could try to dissect Colleen's IRC part.
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2014-07-08T15:48:27Z inklesspen: Shinmera: the trivial-irc docs suggest it's not as usable as cl-irc is
2014-07-08T15:48:34Z inklesspen: the docs could be wrong, i suppose.
2014-07-08T15:48:46Z Shinmera: what does "usable" mean in this context?
2014-07-08T15:49:05Z Ralt:       trivial-irc is a (very) trivial IRC client library.  Currently,
2014-07-08T15:49:05Z Ralt:       there are no facilities for CTCP, and only very simple
2014-07-08T15:49:05Z Ralt:       facilities for receiving, handling and sending messages.  It
2014-07-08T15:49:06Z inklesspen: that's the problem i have trying to use CL; for any task there's five libraries, all of which are unmaintained or implement only part of the solution
2014-07-08T15:49:08Z Ralt:       might evolve over time, and it's my intention to keep the
2014-07-08T15:49:11Z Ralt:       current API available, and to keep it asdf-installable.
2014-07-08T15:49:30Z Shinmera: I used it and it worked fine, unlike cl-irc which I didn't manage to get running.
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2014-07-08T15:49:59Z wizzo: i guess if i have problems i'll check that out
2014-07-08T15:50:06Z wizzo: cl-irc seems to be okay so far
2014-07-08T15:50:17Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: hm, looks interesting, I'll take a look into that. Thanks.
2014-07-08T15:50:49Z Shinmera: Though at some point it really annoyed me and I split Colleen off of it, writing my own client
2014-07-08T15:50:49Z hitecnologys: inklesspen: well, not for any task.
2014-07-08T15:50:55Z Shinmera: I can't recall what that was though
2014-07-08T15:50:59Z Shinmera: it's been almost a year
2014-07-08T15:51:12Z inklesspen: hitecnologys: okay, i was exaggerating. but for most of the tasks i've been trying to accomplish.
2014-07-08T15:51:37Z hitecnologys: inklesspen: you're trying to accomplish wrong tasks then.
2014-07-08T15:51:43Z inklesspen: :(
2014-07-08T15:51:56Z hitecnologys: Just kidding.
2014-07-08T15:52:14Z Shinmera: I'm much happier about the state of libraries in CL than, say, Java
2014-07-08T15:52:17Z hitecnologys: Indeed many libraries are "dead".
2014-07-08T15:52:35Z Shinmera: but it could be much better as is always the case for everything of course.
2014-07-08T15:53:12Z hitecnologys: I wonder what's the name of the language that has the best state of libraries.
2014-07-08T15:53:28Z inklesspen: Shinmera: hm. i never did much with java (except at google, where of course we had our own libraries), but i make my living in python these days, and for python, there's usually at least a couple of solid well-maintained libraries for any task i've tried to accomplish.
2014-07-08T15:53:52Z Shinmera: inklesspen: I did not like most of the libraries I had to deal with in Python either
2014-07-08T15:53:53Z inklesspen: (plus some ones that are WRONG! ON THE INTERNET! but that's always the case)
2014-07-08T15:54:44Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: a language with no libraries
2014-07-08T15:55:02Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: nah, I mean best compared to other languages.
2014-07-08T15:55:07Z Xach: There is a core of really good Common Lisp libraries for many tasks, and the fringier you get, the flakier the libraries get.
2014-07-08T15:55:15Z Xach: The core is smaller and the fringe is closer in CL than in many other ecosystems.
2014-07-08T15:55:23Z moore33 is excited to try out https://github.com/patzy/glop.
2014-07-08T15:55:25Z Xach: Keep on pushing!
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2014-07-08T15:55:30Z moore33: Thought I would have to write it myself.
2014-07-08T15:57:13Z moore33: Even happier to discover that someone has made a serious go at using xlib instead of clx.
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2014-07-08T15:57:47Z hitecnologys: Are there any libraries available for drawing graphs? (Real graphs, like in "graph theory")
2014-07-08T15:58:09Z hitecnologys: I'm having strong feeling that I'll need to write my own hack for vecto.
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2014-07-08T15:59:11Z oleo: i've seen psgraph....
2014-07-08T15:59:21Z oleo: cliki has some links...
2014-07-08T15:59:48Z oleo: and clim has some stuff too...
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2014-07-08T16:00:14Z hitecnologys: oleo: I've checked them out. Everything either hasn't been updated for years or outputs to not very usual formats.
2014-07-08T16:00:38Z oleo: rewrite them then....
2014-07-08T16:00:44Z oleo: eheh
2014-07-08T16:00:46Z oleo: :P
2014-07-08T16:00:47Z Shinmera: Dots should be declared a scarce resource so people will be more careful not to spend them too easily.
2014-07-08T16:00:55Z moore33: The McClim stuff works well enough for small graphs like class inheritance lists, but that's probably not what you mean.
2014-07-08T16:01:09Z oleo: jep
2014-07-08T16:01:21Z oleo: not tested for other stuff yet....
2014-07-08T16:01:29Z hitecnologys: moore33: no, not at all. I need it to work with hundreds of nodes at least.
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2014-07-08T16:02:32Z hitecnologys: OK, thanks for suggestions. It seems that I'll need to write something by myself using existing code.
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2014-07-08T16:03:32Z oleo: is there a way to encode an arbitrary list into binary-tree format and then recover it totally with its old structure ?
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2014-07-08T16:03:46Z brucem: hitecnologys: http://chart.ravenbrook.com/ is written in CL. Don't know if they'll share code.
2014-07-08T16:04:15Z Zhivago: oleo: A list is a binary tree ...
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2014-07-08T16:05:08Z oleo: on another level....
2014-07-08T16:05:12Z hitecnologys: brucem: hm. Looks interesting. Will look into that. Thanks.
2014-07-08T16:05:50Z dlowe: You can look at it as a binary tree in which only the leaf nodes have values, I guess.
2014-07-08T16:06:36Z oleo: right, with the exception of the tail node....
2014-07-08T16:06:59Z oleo: hmmmmm
2014-07-08T16:07:03Z dlowe: if you want the usual binary tree, a node could look like (value (left right))
2014-07-08T16:07:17Z dlowe: er, (value . (left . right))
2014-07-08T16:07:20Z oleo: i'm so confused....
2014-07-08T16:07:28Z oleo: eheh
2014-07-08T16:07:34Z dlowe: draw boxes and arrows :p
2014-07-08T16:07:44Z Guthur`: hitecnologys: if CL is not mandatory D3 can be used to do some rather nice visualisations
2014-07-08T16:08:15Z dlowe: oleo: what would provoke such a question, anyway?
2014-07-08T16:08:41Z Guthur`: you could even 'cheat' and use parenscript to make it feel like CL
2014-07-08T16:08:45Z oleo: really no idea....as of yet.....
2014-07-08T16:09:13Z Guthur`: and actually PS might be useful with the right application of some macros to reduce D3 boiler plate code
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2014-07-08T16:12:14Z hitecnologys: Guthur`: no, CL isn't mandatory. I was also thinking about using R.
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2014-07-08T16:29:07Z pjb: minion: memo for jusss: compile clisp with libsigsegv (and also ffcall for FFI).  Don't use CL implementations compiled by the linux distributions: they do a terrible job at it!  Compile your CL implementations yourself!
2014-07-08T16:29:07Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jusss when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-07-08T16:39:10Z rick-monster: have just today been packaging up-to-date sbcl builds for all our servers in order to faff around with an lfarm cluster (we're on ubuntu)
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2014-07-08T16:40:50Z rick-monster: seems to work if you copy the debian directory from ubuntu package into sbcl's git repo, delete the patches directory, check that in locally as a new branch then run pdebuild...
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2014-07-08T16:45:20Z Xach: you can use dlowe's repo!
2014-07-08T16:45:26Z Xach: not really, sorry. :(
2014-07-08T16:45:34Z Shinmera: building sbcl is not hard
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2014-07-08T16:47:23Z Xach: I wish it was a little bit easier to get recent versions without building.
2014-07-08T16:49:00Z theos: i always build sbcl!
2014-07-08T16:53:54Z theos: looks like i need to update sbcl. been using 1.1.15 for sometime now
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2014-07-08T17:10:36Z bhyde: Xach: I wonder if "package" is the right token to appear in the ql:quickload transcripts as in "[package 3bmd-code-blocks]."?
2014-07-08T17:10:56Z Xach: Ok?
2014-07-08T17:11:15Z Xach: I am not sure about the positioning but it is what it says
2014-07-08T17:11:29Z Xach: that is, it's based on defpackage forms when really it should be in-packages.
2014-07-08T17:11:34Z Xach: or maybe nothing at all. not sure.
2014-07-08T17:11:37Z bhyde: it's not a defpackage package, it's a quicklisp system name, right
2014-07-08T17:11:46Z Xach: bhyde: no, not at all, it's a defpackage package.
2014-07-08T17:12:14Z bhyde: really, now's it know that?
2014-07-08T17:12:22Z bhyde: clever though
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2014-07-08T17:12:31Z bhyde: now's -> how's
2014-07-08T17:12:34Z Xach: bhyde: *macroexpand-hook*
2014-07-08T17:12:43Z bhyde: cool
2014-07-08T17:12:56Z Xach: it prints a . every 1000 times the macroexpand-hook is called
2014-07-08T17:13:01Z Xach: (or something like that)
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2014-07-08T17:13:56Z bhyde: and when the *package* changes it emits ~%[package <blah blah blah?
2014-07-08T17:14:28Z bhyde: fun
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2014-07-08T17:19:04Z bhyde: Xach: this is a side effect of my learning about Docker ... https://gist.github.com/bhyde/f3adbd06661c706d919a
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2014-07-08T17:21:39Z nicdev: Shinmera: have you used commnqt with the latest SBCL? I was able to load it in SBCL 1.1.18 but could not do so on 1.2.1 last night
2014-07-08T17:22:31Z nicdev: s/commnqt/commonqt
2014-07-08T17:23:28Z Shinmera: nicdev: I'm on 1.2.0 currently and it runs fine
2014-07-08T17:24:47Z eudoxia: same as Shinmera, works fine
2014-07-08T17:24:57Z Shinmera: Hm, 1.2.1 hasn't trickled into Arch's packages, so I can't say for that but I'm quite sure it should work
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2014-07-08T17:26:05Z Shinmera: I know Parasol is currently quite broken though, so
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2014-07-08T17:31:06Z nicdev: i don't have access the the machine i was working on at the moment, but i will fiddle around with it again later and see if i can make it to work
2014-07-08T17:31:13Z ck_: -w 1
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2014-07-08T17:31:28Z ck_: sorrz, wrong kezmap
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2014-07-08T17:33:27Z inanc: qwertz?
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2014-07-08T17:33:56Z Shinmera: And for those interested in the project: It will remain broken for a while as it broke me
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2014-07-08T17:34:29Z eudoxia: yeah 45 commits in a day what were you thinking
2014-07-08T17:34:37Z eudoxia: now the rest of your github history looks yellower
2014-07-08T17:35:22Z Shinmera: The more commits I make the more happy I am about a project usually.
2014-07-08T17:35:33Z eudoxia: who isn't?
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2014-07-08T17:35:57Z Shinmera: But I ran into a bunch of really annoying problems and I started to realise how much I hate pretty much every aspect of the code base, so I threw my hands up in frustration and will focus on other things for some time.
2014-07-08T17:36:21Z eudoxia: so, why did you make Parasol instead of using other paint software?
2014-07-08T17:36:29Z eudoxia: s/paint/painting
2014-07-08T17:36:55Z Shinmera: Because there aren't many good painting tools for Linux and the one I use has some really annoying restrictions that I'd like to avoid in Parasol
2014-07-08T17:37:16Z eudoxia: hm
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2014-07-08T17:37:31Z Shinmera: And the other reason is that it mostly happened by accident because I was surprised at how easy it was at first
2014-07-08T17:38:36Z eudoxia: "I accidentally wrote a paint program lol" could be a good (or tremendously bad) propaganda piece for Common Lisp
2014-07-08T17:38:56Z Shinmera: without the "lol" it would be quite appropriate I feel
2014-07-08T17:39:15Z jasom: I find I accidentally write programs all the time in lisp.
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2014-07-08T17:39:34Z Shinmera: But yeah, when I do return to it I might scrap it all and start with a properly thought out architecture to minimise frustration along the way
2014-07-08T17:40:29Z Shinmera: (Btw it's not broken as in unbuildable, you can build and run it but it'll crash before too long due to memory corruptions)
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2014-07-08T18:24:38Z jasom: implementing keyword arguments is a pain
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2014-07-08T18:27:11Z jasom: so many rules to get right
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2014-07-08T18:29:50Z jasom: (defun foo (a &optional b &rest c &key  ((:allow-other-keys d) e f)) ...) (foo 1 2 :allow-other-keys t :allow-other-keys nil 'something-else 3)
2014-07-08T18:30:17Z Xach: neat
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2014-07-08T18:33:29Z jasom: If you change the "e" to somethign that actually has a value, then the whole thing is well defined how it works
2014-07-08T18:33:51Z jasom: though actually  it already is, since the "e" doesn't get evaluated unless :allow-other-keys isn't passed
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2014-07-08T18:34:51Z jasom: And that didn't even have the example of using a variable as a keyword
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2014-07-08T18:36:42Z jasom: Aha, actually if keyword-argument checking is surpressed, then any even-number of arguments is allowed in a safe-call
2014-07-08T18:36:52Z jasom: So (foo 1 2 :allow-other-keys t :allow-other-keys nil 3 4) would even work
2014-07-08T18:38:14Z jasom: but only if you've declared (safety 3)
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2014-07-08T18:45:57Z Ralt: hi
2014-07-08T18:46:54Z Ralt: I'm pretty sure this is a known issue, but if I can't compile iolib because of "unavailable argument -m64 -Wno-write-string", what am I missing?
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2014-07-08T18:50:26Z ahungry: i had that issue a couple weeks ago but only vaguely remember the fix, involved installing some libposixfix library or something similar
2014-07-08T18:50:33Z ahungry: on the OS itself
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2014-07-08T18:51:54Z oleo: maybe some endianness stuff.....
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2014-07-08T18:51:59Z Ralt: ahungry: thanks, looking for that
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2014-07-08T18:54:33Z Ralt: ahungry: libfixposix fixed it, thanks!
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2014-07-08T18:56:14Z ahungry: np, thought it was something close haha, had to do a lot of googling to find it the first time around
2014-07-08T18:56:48Z Ralt: yeah... I'm going to make a gist.
2014-07-08T18:57:43Z Ralt: there we go https://gist.github.com/Ralt/dfdf232656870815e57d
2014-07-08T18:57:49Z Ralt: I shouldn't ever forget about it!
2014-07-08T18:59:43Z ahungry: haha nice
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2014-07-08T19:11:44Z Ralt: hm
2014-07-08T19:11:51Z Ralt: I have a thread that doesn't want to be killed :|
2014-07-08T19:12:16Z oleo: ?
2014-07-08T19:12:26Z oleo: terminate-thead ?
2014-07-08T19:12:43Z Ralt: yeah, it doesn't work: (sb-thread:list-all-threads
2014-07-08T19:12:49Z Ralt: http://pastie.margaine.com/14fcbe8c-7d24-46b5-9bea-02236c7d9777
2014-07-08T19:12:54Z Ralt: sorry, meant to paste this ^
2014-07-08T19:13:04Z Ralt: "Chat resource listener" doesn't want to die
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2014-07-08T19:13:35Z oleo: does it have a parent ?
2014-07-08T19:13:58Z Ralt: I'm not sure?
2014-07-08T19:14:04Z Ralt: I just ran bt:make-thread from repl
2014-07-08T19:14:20Z Ralt: or rather, with C-M-x
2014-07-08T19:15:07Z Bicyclidine: i don't think terminate-thread is recommended. better to set up a place for the thread to check to see if it should terminate itself?
2014-07-08T19:15:48Z Shinmera: I had the same problem on my debian system with SBCL, compiling from source seemed to fix that.
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2014-07-08T19:16:08Z Ralt: Shinmera: I'm already using sbcl 1.2.0 compiled from source with --fancy
2014-07-08T19:16:18Z Shinmera: Well then I don't know
2014-07-08T19:16:29Z Ralt: (and no, not 1.2.1 because quicklisp-slime-helper is broken with it.)
2014-07-08T19:16:49Z Ralt: ok :(
2014-07-08T19:17:00Z Ralt: how can I debug?
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2014-07-08T19:17:40Z Xach: quicklisp-slime-helper isn't broken. the slime it helps you use is.
2014-07-08T19:18:10Z Ralt: yes, yes, my bad :P
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2014-07-08T19:19:45Z jasom: Is it possible to signal an error on a thread?  That would at least allow for cleanup
2014-07-08T19:19:56Z Shinmera: it is, but it's messy
2014-07-08T19:20:23Z Shinmera: THough if terminating doesn't work I'm guessing any kind of interrupt won't work
2014-07-08T19:20:25Z jasom: Though that's just a case of the runtime setting up a place for the thread check if it should terminate itself
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2014-07-08T19:21:34Z Shinmera: Ralt: what does sb-thread::thread-interruptions give you for the thread you wanted to terminate?
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2014-07-08T19:22:13Z Ralt: trying this
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2014-07-08T19:22:39Z oleo: anything thread related is messy....
2014-07-08T19:22:45Z oleo: even conceptually....
2014-07-08T19:23:09Z oleo: ieee has some manual even....
2014-07-08T19:23:14Z oleo: concerning that....
2014-07-08T19:23:34Z oleo: erm article/paper
2014-07-08T19:24:16Z oleo: it's more on the math side tho....
2014-07-08T19:24:17Z Ralt: Shinmera: 28 lines like this:  #<CLOSURE (LAMBDA () :IN SB-THREAD:INTERRUPT-THREAD) {100CDF897B}>
2014-07-08T19:24:27Z Shinmera: yeah that means your interrupts aren't interrupting
2014-07-08T19:24:34Z Shinmera: and the thread just keeps on goin'
2014-07-08T19:24:38Z Ralt: damn.
2014-07-08T19:25:10Z Ralt: how can I forcefully kill it then?
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2014-07-08T19:25:33Z Shinmera: I can't really help you to debug further as I have no idea about sbcl internals
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2014-07-08T19:26:00Z Shinmera: When I had the same problem on debian as I said I compiled from source and that seemed to fix it, but since you're already doing that I'm out of advice
2014-07-08T19:26:10Z Ralt: ok, thanks
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2014-07-08T19:32:14Z rszeno: "sb-thread:make-listener-thread' in addition to creating a new Lisp session makes a new POSIX session, so pressing 'Control-C' in one window will not interrupt another listener
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2014-07-08T19:38:13Z jasom: Before I write a completely new CL implementation from scratch, I just wanted to check that there currently aren't any free implementations that would be amenable to porting to non-von-neumann machines
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2014-07-08T19:38:45Z jasom: I suppose the KCL family might fall in that definition, now that I think of it.
2014-07-08T19:39:12Z jasom: but even then, I think the non-local control structures assume that you can setjmp/longjmp or equivalent
2014-07-08T19:39:38Z Bicyclidine: What kind of non von neumann machine, out of curiosity
2014-07-08T19:40:45Z oGMo: yes, what do _you_ mean by "non-von-neumann", because that's like saying "a color not entirely red" heh
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2014-07-08T19:41:48Z jasom: Bicyclidine: the javascript VM, in this case.
2014-07-08T19:41:52Z Bicyclidine: it's a reasonable thing to say, i'm just wondering
2014-07-08T19:41:55Z jasom: But in general any case where code and data don't share space
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2014-07-08T19:42:18Z oGMo: then technically modern x86 is non-von-neumann :P
2014-07-08T19:42:20Z Bicyclidine: If not ABCL then I don't think so.
2014-07-08T19:42:38Z jasom: oGMo: you can get x86 to act like non-von-neumann, though it is modified-harvard
2014-07-08T19:42:51Z jasom: modified-harvard is more of an optimization of von-neumann than a complete abandonment of it
2014-07-08T19:43:18Z jasom: code and data share the same *address space* even if they don't transparently act identically
2014-07-08T19:43:50Z Ralt quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2014-07-08T19:44:17Z oGMo: ew, nonunified architectures
2014-07-08T19:44:31Z jasom: A true harvard architecture would act a lot like javascript; you can't just poke a bunch of values into RAM and then (after possibly doing some-sort of sync instruction) jump to them
2014-07-08T19:45:02Z mathrick_: but you can create functions and code dynamically
2014-07-08T19:45:03Z oGMo: that said i'd be surprised if it'd be that much different to port anyway
2014-07-08T19:45:19Z mathrick_: so it's not like you can't get data to be executable in JS
2014-07-08T19:45:20Z Bicyclidine: yeah, you do have eval...
2014-07-08T19:45:22Z oGMo: you either interpret data or you compile it to executable space, anyway
2014-07-08T19:45:29Z Bicyclidine: though it kinda blows, of course
2014-07-08T19:45:29Z mathrick_: it just doesn't scribble over bytes stashed somewhere
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2014-07-08T19:45:35Z oGMo: mathrick_: exactly
2014-07-08T19:45:54Z mathrick_: Bicyclidine: actually, no, there are much better closure-based compilation techniques
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2014-07-08T19:46:10Z mathrick_: if your compiler uses eval, it's almost certainly using the wrong tool
2014-07-08T19:46:34Z mathrick_: the cases where EVAL is the only or even acceptable tool are really few and far between
2014-07-08T19:46:43Z Bicyclidine: well that's basically faking code being in the data space. i guess that's not important though.
2014-07-08T19:46:55Z mathrick_: what, closures?
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2014-07-08T19:47:09Z mathrick_: closures are true values and true code
2014-07-08T19:47:15Z Bicyclidine: never mind.
2014-07-08T19:47:16Z jasom: Actually the larger issue than faking code being in the data sapce is that every lisp implementation I've seen does raw stack manipulation.  I *could* fake that up in js, but that seems suboptimal
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2014-07-08T19:47:25Z jasom: and harder than just writing an implementation from scratch
2014-07-08T19:47:32Z mathrick_: yeah, that'd be much more of a problem
2014-07-08T19:47:44Z Bicyclidine: abcl might not?
2014-07-08T19:47:53Z jasom: Bicyclidine: yeah, I haven't looked at abcl's internals much
2014-07-08T19:47:59Z mathrick_: you can make up code on the spot in JS, it's just that existing implementations assume things about how it's done that are absolutely not true about JS
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2014-07-08T19:48:00Z jasom: It might be worth looking at
2014-07-08T19:48:15Z mathrick_: although
2014-07-08T19:48:19Z mathrick_: asm.js?
2014-07-08T19:48:24Z Bicyclidine: when i looked into abcl a bit the main thing i got out was that it did pretty much no optimization. not surprising but might be kept in mind
2014-07-08T19:48:31Z mathrick_: I dunno if those can be compiled dynamically in a sensible way
2014-07-08T19:48:31Z jasom: mathrick_: stack manipulation on asm.js is verboten
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2014-07-08T19:48:59Z mathrick_: jasom: but you have arrays and byte buffers, you could probably fake a lot of that by doing your own thing
2014-07-08T19:49:02Z jasom: mathrick_: I actually got clisp partially bootstrapped with non-local exits excluded on asm.js
2014-07-08T19:49:06Z mathrick_: although it'd likely kill the VM
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2014-07-08T19:50:20Z jasom: mathrick_: it wasn't even cross-compiled, I compiled directly with emscripten and changed the build-scripts to use v8 to run it
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2014-07-08T19:50:42Z jasom: but clisp wants a function that returns the stack pointer
2014-07-08T19:50:57Z mathrick_: jasom: I wonder, how horribly hard would it be to teach an implementation to use JS's own activation record as the "primitive" to manipulate the stack, rather than compiling to whatever machine code the VOPs normally emit?
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2014-07-08T19:51:44Z mathrick_: I don't know much about SBCL, so I have no idea how opinionated it is about doing something very specific, rather than assuming that a couple low-level VOPs do the right thing somehow
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2014-07-08T19:52:40Z jasom: Anyway I have 8/978 symbols implemented, and another 32 partially implemented (functions done, setf expanders not)
2014-07-08T19:52:40Z mathrick_: given the flexibility of calling conventions, GC disciplines, and a couple other things that are pluggable in SBCL, I'd expect it to make relatively few assumptions about the exact specifics of what goes on at the primitive level
2014-07-08T19:53:15Z jasom: mathrick_: the GC code all assumes you can get to a control stack and a numeric stack
2014-07-08T19:54:14Z mathrick_: what's a numeric stack?
2014-07-08T19:54:20Z jasom: though I suppose I could put defuns in an array and make calling referrencing the array
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2014-07-08T19:54:33Z jasom: mathrick_: a stack of immediates (i.e. not lisp objects)
2014-07-08T19:54:36Z mathrick_: ah
2014-07-08T19:54:50Z jasom: mathrick_: so for example an unboxed float or unsigned-byte
2014-07-08T19:55:15Z mathrick_: yeah, I know what immediates are, I just didn't know the name "numeric stack"
2014-07-08T19:55:31Z jasom: mathrick_: it might have some other name instead, I've heard it called "numeric"
2014-07-08T19:56:03Z jasom: basically the GC doesn't walk the numeric stack, but it does walk the control stack
2014-07-08T19:56:13Z jasom: on x86oids the stacks are combined so the GC is imprecise
2014-07-08T19:56:16Z mathrick_: right, it's pretty clear when you know what it's supposed to refer to
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2014-07-08T19:56:39Z average: is there a lisp advent calendar ?
2014-07-08T19:56:39Z mathrick_: jasom: is there any specific reason they're combined?
2014-07-08T19:56:46Z Xach: average: no
2014-07-08T19:56:48Z jasom: it's also designed to have fixed designations of which registers store immediates and which store lisp objects
2014-07-08T19:57:00Z jasom: mathrick_: register pressure
2014-07-08T19:57:01Z average: Xach: that sucks..
2014-07-08T19:57:16Z jasom: mathrick_: 2 registers per stack
2014-07-08T19:57:16Z mathrick_: jasom: because of the fixed designations that is?
2014-07-08T19:57:40Z jasom: mathrick_: 4 registers alone get used for 2 stacks, even having flexible register designations it would be a dealbreaker on IA32
2014-07-08T19:57:47Z mathrick_: yeah
2014-07-08T19:58:08Z mathrick_: but x86_64 does have a precise GC, AFAIK
2014-07-08T19:58:11Z jasom: on amd-64 flexible register designations might be enough to alleviate the pressure.  ARM uses fixed partitioning and the register pressure has a measurable impact on performance
2014-07-08T19:58:35Z jasom: mathrick_: AFAIK x86_64 doesn't have the code written for partitioned stacks and registrs
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2014-07-08T19:58:48Z jasom: since it inherits the code from IA32
2014-07-08T19:59:06Z jasom: and again ~16 registers is still tight.
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2014-07-08T19:59:41Z mathrick_: humm, I recall pkhuong doing things to it, though maybe I'm confabulating here, I don't have specific enough recollections
2014-07-08T20:00:00Z jasom: Other RISC targets have  32 registers, which is enough to waste a few of them on whatever you want and still be fine
2014-07-08T20:00:55Z jasom: I kind of wish there was an ARM IS that dumped the conditional instructions the same way that Thumb2 did, but instead added more registers
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2014-07-08T20:04:29Z jasom: The condition was 4 bits which is enough to double the registers for all 3 register instructions, with 1 bit left over for signalling
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2014-07-08T20:05:55Z jasom: actually I forgot long-multiply needs 4 registers, which would use all 4 condition registers
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2014-07-08T20:06:07Z jasom: s/condition registers/condition bits
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2014-07-08T21:00:50Z jasom: huzzah! ((COMMON-LISP::LAMBDA (NIL::X COMMON-LISP::&KEY (NIL::Y 1)) (COMMON-LISP::+ NIL::X NIL::Y)) 2) => 3
2014-07-08T21:01:08Z jasom: (my printer currently prints uninterned symbols as being in a package named nil; I need to fix that)
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2014-07-08T21:02:03Z Bicyclidine: new implementation of lisp, obv
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2014-07-08T21:04:22Z jasom: yup
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2014-07-08T21:07:11Z moore33: jasom:You'll be interested in the papers beach is presenting at ILC.
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2014-07-08T21:07:46Z jasom: ((COMMON-LISP::LAMBDA (#:X COMMON-LISP::&KEY (#:Y 1)) (COMMON-LISP::+ #:X #:Y)) 2) <-- that looks a lot better; it was a single-character error in my printer (was checking for host nil instead of target nil on package)
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2014-07-08T22:20:36Z pjb: jasom: there's a butterfly CL implemented in butterfly scheme that works on some parallel architecture, IIRC.
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2014-07-08T22:21:04Z pjb: *Lisp might also be rather different, being implemented on a Connection Machine.
2014-07-08T22:21:16Z pjb: But I don't think we have the sources of *Lisp.
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2014-07-08T22:21:58Z p_l: there's an emulator written in CL, iirc
2014-07-08T22:22:06Z p_l: well, "emulator" for *Lisp
2014-07-08T22:22:06Z Bicyclidine: we have sources for a sim. it's not really CL though
2014-07-08T22:22:23Z Bicyclidine: also it's really old. mk-defsystem and stuff. sucks.
2014-07-08T22:22:33Z jasom had no idea the butterfly sources were available
2014-07-08T22:22:44Z p_l: oh?
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2014-07-08T22:25:19Z |3b|: if you want more of a challenge, cmlisp sounded more interesting than *lisp, if a lot harder to implement
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2014-07-08T22:57:26Z jasom: Is it permissible for a lisp to not have a fixnum type?
2014-07-08T22:57:39Z jasom: or rather an empty fixnum type
2014-07-08T22:57:54Z jasom: nvm needs to be at least 16 bit signed
2014-07-08T22:58:31Z jasom: I'll just pretend that small bignums are really fixnums for now
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2014-07-08T23:51:50Z pjb: jasom: it is possible that (not (eq 1 1)) which means that fixnums can be implemented as bignums.
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2014-07-09T01:21:47Z inklesspen: got a MOP question. with generic-function-methods, i can get all the methods defined for a generic function. with specializer-direct-methods, i can get all the methods defined on any function which specialize directly on a particular class.
2014-07-09T01:22:14Z inklesspen: what I want to do is get all the methods defined for a particular generic function, which have a particular class OR ANY SUBCLASS as a specializer.
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2014-07-09T01:22:27Z inklesspen: obviously i can do this with generic-function-methods and then filtering
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2014-07-09T01:22:34Z inklesspen: but i thought i'd ask if there's a better way
2014-07-09T01:23:27Z Zhivago: So you want to find the applicable methods.
2014-07-09T01:24:08Z Zhivago: Have you looked at compute-applicable-methods?
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2014-07-09T01:32:36Z inklesspen: Zhivago: not yet.
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2014-07-09T01:32:56Z inklesspen: working with the MOP is sort of trial and error for me, because http://www.alu.org/mop/contents.html is the best reference I've been able to find
2014-07-09T01:33:21Z inklesspen: hm.
2014-07-09T01:33:50Z inklesspen: looks like compute-applicable-methods requires values for all required arguments.
2014-07-09T01:34:24Z inklesspen: my generic function has methods that specialize on two arguments; i want to compute the applicable methods specializing on only one of them (if that makes sense)
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2014-07-09T01:35:35Z inklesspen: basically i have (defmethod handle-command ((env 'env-class-a) (command (eql :command-1))) and i want to find all the handle-command methods that specialize on env-class-a, no matter which command they specialize on
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2014-07-09T01:37:13Z Zhivago: There's a version that operates on classes, iirc.
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2014-07-09T01:38:03Z pillton: Zhivago: I was looking for that, but there is no class that is a subclass of all classes.
2014-07-09T01:38:19Z pillton: There is the type NIL which is a subtype of all types.
2014-07-09T01:38:42Z inklesspen: hm, compute-applicable-methods-using-classes
2014-07-09T01:40:32Z inklesspen pokes at it
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2014-07-09T01:42:21Z inklesspen: yeah, this is gonna work
2014-07-09T01:42:45Z inklesspen: thanks!
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2014-07-09T01:45:33Z Zhivago: Why do you want a universal subclass?
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2014-07-09T01:49:43Z pillton: How do you say any command?
2014-07-09T01:51:40Z inklesspen: well, i was using eql specializers, so. :P
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2014-07-09T01:52:25Z Zhivago: Well, subclassing doesn't apply to eql specializers.
2014-07-09T01:52:37Z Zhivago: I don't see how you'll avoid some magic filtering logic approach.
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2014-07-09T01:52:42Z inklesspen: (compute-applicable-methods-using-classes #'handle-command (list (class-of *some-env-instance*) (class-of :some-keyword))) actually works
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2014-07-09T01:53:19Z pillton: That doesn't seem right to me.
2014-07-09T01:53:23Z inklesspen: it returns the list of methods as the first value, and returns nil as the second value. (it returns nil to indicate that this is insufficient to actually compute the applicable methods for reals, because of the eql specializers)
2014-07-09T01:53:51Z inklesspen: well, it works. i don't know how to explain why it works any better than that.
2014-07-09T01:54:22Z pillton: Ok. I have to read the definition of C-A-M-U-C.
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2014-07-09T02:00:14Z ahungry: hey all, with quicklisp how do I load a local project vs the distro provided one?
2014-07-09T02:00:36Z pjb: Just put it in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/
2014-07-09T02:00:50Z pjb: It takes precedence automatically.
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2014-07-09T02:18:55Z ahungry: thanks
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2014-07-09T02:20:48Z antonv: ahungry: another way: (push "/path/to/your/project/directory" asdf:*central-registry) (ql:quickload :your-project)
2014-07-09T02:21:03Z ahungry: ty much all
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2014-07-09T02:57:24Z pillton: I don't understand why asdf:*central-registry* is "not recommended for new users."
2014-07-09T02:57:47Z Bike: it's supposed to be outmoded.
2014-07-09T02:59:19Z pillton: Old fashioned? bah. It makes sense.
2014-07-09T02:59:36Z pillton: And I really dislike (asdf:clear-source-registry).
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2014-07-09T03:46:05Z pjb: pillton: that said, it works perfectly for a quick asdf-load.
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2014-07-09T06:53:35Z wizzo: inklesspen: hi are you there?
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2014-07-09T06:57:43Z wizzo: actually this might work as a general question
2014-07-09T06:57:55Z wizzo: i'm using cl-irc and i get an object representing a message
2014-07-09T06:57:59Z wizzo: looks like this: http://lpaste.net/3223497015778344960
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2014-07-09T06:58:29Z wizzo: when i run (slot-value message 'source) i get an error
2014-07-09T06:58:38Z wizzo: am i misunderstanding how objects work?
2014-07-09T06:58:55Z Bike: you're misunderstanding symbols; try (slot-value message 'irc:source)
2014-07-09T06:59:01Z Bike: (or irc::source if that fails)
2014-07-09T06:59:42Z wizzo: ooooooh ok i see
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2014-07-09T07:00:13Z wizzo: so symbols must always be "fully qualified", they can't work with context?
2014-07-09T07:00:43Z Bike: no, they can be.
2014-07-09T07:00:43Z Bike: clhs use-package
2014-07-09T07:00:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_use_pk.htm
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2014-07-09T07:01:03Z Bike: if you'd USEd the cl-irc package you wouldn't need to qualify it.
2014-07-09T07:01:12Z wizzo: ahhhh ok that explains everything
2014-07-09T07:01:14Z wizzo: thank you!!
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2014-07-09T07:01:41Z Bike: anyway, it's preferred to use the accessor functions rather than slot-value. the accessor in this case is irc:source so you'd do (irc:source message)
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2014-07-09T07:03:34Z wizzo: Bike: why would is be irc:source and not irc:irc-privmsg-message-source?
2014-07-09T07:04:06Z Bike: because the code defines the accessor as just source. it could have done the latter if it wanted but it didn't. it's a general accessor for all irc-message subclasses.
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2014-07-09T07:05:02Z wizzo: cool that makes sense
2014-07-09T07:05:04Z wizzo: thanks again :)
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2014-07-09T07:06:31Z wizzo: Bike: actually one more thing. do you know this because you've used cl-irc or is it a common practice?
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2014-07-09T07:06:59Z Bike: both. i haven't used cl-irc in years but your problem looked like a symbol thing. source i remembered from when i used it.
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2014-07-09T07:08:17Z wizzo: cool
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2014-07-09T07:14:57Z joe-w-bimedina: Can someone take a look at these defmethods https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/ea822c0f8b557442978c and tell me why they are all defaulting to the last one in the list, the keypoint one. eg when I run 	(*write fs "double-float" 3d0) it gives me error for the bottom keypoint defmethod. and if i run (*write fs "string" "string")  for instance it does the same thing
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2014-07-09T07:16:11Z PuercoPop: joe-w-bimedina: afaik you can't specialize on optional args
2014-07-09T07:16:25Z PuercoPop: you prolly overwrting the method defs
2014-07-09T07:16:42Z PuercoPop: have you used inspector on the generic function?
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2014-07-09T07:16:52Z joe-w-bimedina: what is inspector?
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2014-07-09T07:17:19Z PuercoPop: slime's inspector
2014-07-09T07:17:42Z joe-w-bimedina: no havent heard of that,
2014-07-09T07:18:58Z phadthai:  (if (typep value 'double-float)  maybe you want self rather than value there also?
2014-07-09T07:18:59Z joe-w-bimedina: I found the link thanks,
2014-07-09T07:22:01Z PuercoPop: yeah, just checked Keene's Book
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2014-07-09T07:22:23Z joe-w-bimedina: I have another *write method I would like to write that takes 2 args, how could I arrange the param list if in the 5 *write methods I posted I have to specialize on the last arg?
2014-07-09T07:22:35Z PuercoPop: you can't specialize on optional parameters
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2014-07-09T07:23:15Z PuercoPop: so basically you are defining 5 methods with the same specialization
2014-07-09T07:23:39Z joe-w-bimedina: so then I can't right the one that takes 2 args?
2014-07-09T07:24:08Z PuercoPop: not choose based on the type of the optional arguments
2014-07-09T07:24:09Z jusss: (setq b 72)   ;undefined variable b   sbcl ,   why ?
2014-07-09T07:24:09Z minion: jusss, memo from pjb: compile clisp with libsigsegv (and also ffcall for FFI).  Don't use CL implementations compiled by the linux distributions: they do a terrible job at it!  Compile your CL implementations yourself!
2014-07-09T07:24:31Z PuercoPop: so you'd have to dispatch inside of the method
2014-07-09T07:24:43Z phadthai: jusss: see defvar and defparameter
2014-07-09T07:25:11Z phadthai: jusss: and let for lexically scoped variables
2014-07-09T07:25:16Z jusss: lexical and socpe?
2014-07-09T07:25:33Z jusss: phadthai: i see
2014-07-09T07:26:02Z PuercoPop: joe-w-bimedina: or you could rethink using generic functions in this case as they don't seem to be a good fit
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2014-07-09T07:26:15Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks that makes sense, only be a tiny bit slower and these are file i/o methods so it does not really matter, thank you for advice...
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2014-07-09T07:26:51Z phadthai: sbcl will still create the variable if it's missing, but it warns if it wasn't already created
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2014-07-09T07:27:14Z phadthai: joe-w-bimedina: custom dispatch might or might not be slower, as clos is also very dynamic
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2014-07-09T07:28:10Z joe-w-bimedina: I was thinking of dispatch meaning a cond statement inside a function.  does pcl touch on custom dispatch
2014-07-09T07:29:40Z phadthai: I was thinking the same... however it's also possible to tell clos how to dispatch differently than the default, but I don't have experience with that myself
2014-07-09T07:30:45Z PuercoPop: you mean writing your own method combinators? that seems like overkill
2014-07-09T07:31:16Z phadthai: yes
2014-07-09T07:31:21Z joe-w-bimedina: perfect can you send a link that would tell me  how to tell clos how to dispatch differently than the default
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2014-07-09T07:32:12Z phadthai: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_comput.htm
2014-07-09T07:32:29Z phadthai: and there's also the MOP
2014-07-09T07:32:54Z joe-w-bimedina: you mean read AMOP?
2014-07-09T07:34:17Z phadthai: sure, but I doubt you need that at this point
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2014-07-09T07:35:36Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thank you , I will look into MOP
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2014-07-09T07:51:00Z jusss: does cl have write function ? and how it's
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2014-07-09T07:51:20Z moore33: |3b|:Are you the keeper of cl-opengl?
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2014-07-09T07:52:40Z phadthai: jusss: see the various WRITE functions there: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_Mast_W.htm
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2014-07-09T07:53:03Z jusss: phadthai: thanks
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2014-07-09T07:53:10Z phadthai: and http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_pr_obj.htm
2014-07-09T07:53:41Z phadthai: which can be extended with custom methods
2014-07-09T07:54:52Z phadthai: and http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_pr_unr.htm a helper for print-object methods
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2014-07-09T07:55:47Z phadthai: also the functions starting with prin in the index
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2014-07-09T08:02:21Z phadthai: oh and of course format
2014-07-09T08:04:14Z joe-w-bimedina: I had an idea,  If I wanted to have a lot of overloaded functions named "write' in my package , since "write" is a common lisp function, I could shadow it in my package,  and then find the source for the cl::write function and add it to my package under a different name and then write a "write" method for it.  is this a bad idea in any way, I mean will common lisp developer ever update it so my version becomes deprecated.
2014-07-09T08:04:51Z joe-w-bimedina: I could stay on top of it I guess I only have 7 or 8 functions I would do this with
2014-07-09T08:06:20Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: are you serious? Copy-paste function? What? (defun your-write (&rest args) (apply #'cl:write args)).
2014-07-09T08:06:52Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: and CL does not have developer. Implementation does.
2014-07-09T08:07:01Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: you get it all wrong.
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2014-07-09T08:10:24Z joe-w-bimedina: ok so if I shadow it then I could bring it back in with cl::write,   I thought it would be way harder than that,  thanks again!
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2014-07-09T08:11:39Z moore33: cl:write ... but I would suggest that having your own function named WRITE is a bit confusing.
2014-07-09T08:11:54Z hitecnologys agrees with moore33
2014-07-09T08:12:48Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: I think you should read more on how package system works. cl:write != cl::write though they access the same symbol.
2014-07-09T08:14:51Z joe-w-bimedina: ok I will read up on that, so cl:write and cl::write actually do different things...interesting
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2014-07-09T08:16:34Z hitecnologys: cl:write is used to access exported symbols while cl::write ignores export policies.
2014-07-09T08:16:55Z hitecnologys: You shouldn't use :: if you're not sure what you're doing.
2014-07-09T08:17:30Z joe-w-bimedina: as long as I can use  cl:write this could work
2014-07-09T08:17:35Z moore33: It is instructive to look at the code for WRITE for an implementation, and all implementations' WRITE functions are going to be similar, but it is difficult to actually replace an implementation's WRITE unless you are doing something very limited.
2014-07-09T08:17:56Z moore33: Or you are willing to replace many of the output functions.
2014-07-09T08:18:41Z joe-w-bimedina: so if an implementations version of write could differ from another than it is not safe then right?
2014-07-09T08:19:30Z moore33: joe-w-bimedina: It would be like replacing printf on Windows with printf code from Gnu libc.
2014-07-09T08:19:44Z moore33: The implementations may be similar, but...
2014-07-09T08:20:05Z moore33: ... even though the code implements a well-specified behavior.
2014-07-09T08:20:39Z joe-w-bimedina: ok I had no idea of that , thanks for the heads up,  so this would be a bad road to take then or am i missing something
2014-07-09T08:22:02Z hitecnologys: It's always a bad idea to rewrite something if you have no idea what you're up to.
2014-07-09T08:22:34Z hitecnologys: You, apparently, have no idea what you're doing.
2014-07-09T08:23:01Z moore33: It's inconvenient that there are several Common Lisp implementations ;)
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2014-07-09T08:23:43Z joe-w-bimedina: yea I'm going to keep studying,  I'm on name-to-symbol tables now...looks interesting
2014-07-09T08:24:07Z hitecnologys: moore33: I'd say it's quite convenient. They serve different purposes.
2014-07-09T08:24:58Z moore33: hitecnologys: I don't disagree, hence the smiley.
2014-07-09T08:25:46Z hitecnologys: moore33: ah, I see.
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2014-07-09T08:26:12Z hitecnologys: moore33: my irony detector seems to be broken.
2014-07-09T08:26:31Z joe-w-bimedina: If you guys are working in office with 100,000$ dollar pc's I admit I have a way to go, but I do appreciate you helping me get there, honestly
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2014-07-09T08:27:46Z moore33: I've never been one that believes that development efforts should coalesce around one free Lisp implementation, as has been advocated from time to time; open source developers mostly choose to work on what they want to, with who they want to. But the CL ecosystem is small and crowded, nonetheless.
2014-07-09T08:28:05Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: I'm unemployed. Why is this relevant?
2014-07-09T08:29:38Z joe-w-bimedina: I was talking to a bunch of guys here yesterday, that were working in big offices with giant servers, I thought I heard you say you did too,  must have been pjb
2014-07-09T08:29:52Z moore33: I doubt that.
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2014-07-09T08:30:32Z joe-w-bimedina: someone showed me a link to a 80 core they had at work..forgot who
2014-07-09T08:30:53Z hitecnologys: There are logs.
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2014-07-09T08:35:00Z joe-w-bimedina: miine only go back one day,  have to configure it
2014-07-09T08:37:15Z p_l: joe-w-bimedina: latest non-embedded POWER chips show up as 96 cores for typical cpu...
2014-07-09T08:39:03Z joe-w-bimedina: so it was you that had the 80 core, dont really understand " latest non-embedded POWER chips show up as 96 cores for typical cpu"  I do pc repair but on;y desltops/laptops
2014-07-09T08:39:07Z jusss: the syntax of fuction write is so long!
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2014-07-09T08:39:42Z joe-w-bimedina: thats why he suggested apply I assume
2014-07-09T08:39:52Z p_l: joe-w-bimedina: essentially, one cpu module = 96 threads in 12 cores, think of how intel has hyperthreading etc.
2014-07-09T08:40:12Z p_l: a low-to-mid range server will have two such modules
2014-07-09T08:40:14Z joe-w-bimedina: jusss: seemed weird to me too
2014-07-09T08:40:59Z joe-w-bimedina: I would love to get something like that,
2014-07-09T08:41:26Z p_l: ... with the POWER8, a hi-end server might seriously make someone happy that the cpu limit in linux/powerpc is 8192
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2014-07-09T08:42:54Z jusss: joe-w-bimedina: usually functions like read write open should be simply like c, i think
2014-07-09T08:43:14Z moore33: jusss: Think harder :)
2014-07-09T08:43:17Z joe-w-bimedina: cool! they just came available
2014-07-09T08:43:33Z joe-w-bimedina: the power8 that is
2014-07-09T08:44:30Z joe-w-bimedina: you mean read/write should be simple
2014-07-09T08:44:36Z joe-w-bimedina: like c
2014-07-09T08:45:00Z moore33: WRITE is a bit out of control in that it can bind all the variables that control output via its arguments.
2014-07-09T08:45:46Z joe-w-bimedina: well apply should do the trick then i think
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2014-07-09T08:56:20Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: I think that was me. I have a few powerful machines at my disposal.
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2014-07-09T08:58:12Z joe-w-bimedina: cool, yeah, I was just saying having those machines at your disposal must be pretty awesome. you must be a pretty good programmer to have someone with that kind of money hire you
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2014-07-09T09:13:34Z Ralt: lol
2014-07-09T09:13:41Z Ralt: you must be young
2014-07-09T09:14:19Z joe-w-bimedina: 37
2014-07-09T09:14:20Z p_l: Ralt: hahaha
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2014-07-09T09:14:41Z Ralt: joe-w-bimedina: it's usually at huge companies (i.e. big money) that you find the worst programmers
2014-07-09T09:14:46Z p_l: joe-w-bimedina: depends on what you're going to do
2014-07-09T09:15:03Z p_l: a lot of those huge boxen are bought for 3rd party apps and come as package deals
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2014-07-09T09:15:39Z joe-w-bimedina: someone said that about the DOD too,  shocked me,  figured they would be the most picky
2014-07-09T09:16:06Z p_l: I think some of the worst possible option are mass-consulting companies. Not all, and not all depts of such, but there are some that are famous for programmer churn (because everyone who wises up leaves immediately)
2014-07-09T09:16:34Z p_l: joe-w-bimedina: DoD itself might get pretty good people. The quality of stuff from private contractors is...
2014-07-09T09:17:02Z p_l: let's just say it will be long time till I trust any piece of software delivered by Lockheed Martin
2014-07-09T09:17:32Z joe-w-bimedina: I thought so too, the guy I'm helping write the OpenCV c bindings is ex DOD...he seems good to me
2014-07-09T09:17:42Z joe-w-bimedina: why is that?
2014-07-09T09:17:50Z stassats: because it's off-topic!
2014-07-09T09:18:03Z joe-w-bimedina: understood:)
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2014-07-09T09:18:22Z p_l: joe-w-bimedina: I worked on fixing a project delivered by LM. Can't say much more here, and not even because it's off-topic ;)
2014-07-09T09:19:40Z joe-w-bimedina: p_l: I have to digress too but congrats, that is an enviable station
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2014-07-09T09:20:25Z p_l: depends on specific company. That said, about "packaged deals" - it's a great way to get a lisp product somewhere
2014-07-09T09:20:52Z p_l: a lot of companies don't really care about the language, if you're going to support the product, and even more if you offer a deal where you'll package and install it
2014-07-09T09:22:53Z p_l: suddenly, it's not a problem if you want to use SBCL :3
2014-07-09T09:23:28Z joe-w-bimedina: I would love to hear more but we can get bumped for being off topic right, if you want to send me a private mssg
2014-07-09T09:24:07Z Enfors: ... or perhaps take the discussion to #lispcafe? I hear that sort of things is its purpose.
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2014-07-09T09:25:12Z joe-w-bimedina: its almost my bed time, but tomorrow or other day I would love to hear about it..probably learn something
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2014-07-09T09:35:47Z Enfors: Hmm. Does anybody have any idea why I keep seeing "This `cl-labels' requires `lexical-binding' to be non-nil" in the message area of Emacs? I'm using Slime / ccl.
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2014-07-09T09:36:46Z stassats: it might be because lexical-binding is nil
2014-07-09T09:37:11Z jusss: i write a big number to a file ,but i find the big number is not complete in the file,  (with-open-file (stream "c:\\s.txt" :direction :output :if-exists :append) (format stream "~d" (fibonacci 999999)))
2014-07-09T09:37:29Z Enfors: Well thanks stassats, I figured that much out myself :-)
2014-07-09T09:37:53Z stassats: is the current slime even using cl-labels?
2014-07-09T09:38:20Z Enfors: I have never heard of "cl-labels" until I saw that message for the first time.
2014-07-09T09:38:23Z stassats: jusss: is FIBONACCI computing it correctly?
2014-07-09T09:38:34Z jusss: stassats: yes
2014-07-09T09:38:57Z stassats: how do you know it's not complete?
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2014-07-09T09:39:39Z jusss: stassats: in the repl, it print 2400 line long , but in the file just 30 line
2014-07-09T09:39:40Z moore33: jusss:How are you looking at the file?
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2014-07-09T09:40:44Z stassats: it should be one line, shouldn't it?
2014-07-09T09:40:47Z jusss: moore33: gvim for win7
2014-07-09T09:41:39Z jusss: stassats: yes ,one line , i describe it's so long ,so i say 2400 line
2014-07-09T09:42:56Z stassats: jusss: you can try http://paste.lisp.org/display/143123 to be sure
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2014-07-09T09:44:37Z jusss: stassats: moore33, it's gvim's fault, open the file with notepad, it's normal,
2014-07-09T09:44:48Z stassats: there you go
2014-07-09T09:44:55Z stassats: now you know better not to use vim
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2014-07-09T09:49:31Z moore33: jusss:Not a huge surprise.
2014-07-09T09:49:59Z stassats: long lines are hard
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2014-07-09T10:03:11Z jusss: compute the 999999th fibonacci number in 10 secs, sbcl is so fast !  with tail recursion
2014-07-09T10:06:39Z loke: More reliable without using recursion
2014-07-09T10:07:30Z moore33: loke: Gotta choose your battles.
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2014-07-09T10:07:57Z loke: moore33: I can still take potshots :-)
2014-07-09T10:08:06Z moore33: loke: Fair enough :)
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2014-07-09T11:44:22Z drmeister: Is there a function to remove an association from an a-list?
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2014-07-09T11:50:52Z drmeister: Given a key it would unhook the association from the alist.   (remove-assoc '((a 1) (b 2) (c 3)) 'a) --> '((b 2) (c 3))
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2014-07-09T11:52:52Z drmeister: This may sound a little wooly-headed but I'm exposing a lot of C++ code to Common lisp and I want a small, light-weight data structure to store values associated with symbol keys.  An alist looks about right.  I'll need C++ functions to add associations, remove associations, and search for associations.
2014-07-09T11:53:49Z Enfors: drmeister: Strange. I ran a google search, and found no apparent solution.
2014-07-09T11:54:24Z Enfors: Only one that "might work, but it was undefined in Common Lisp"
2014-07-09T11:54:34Z drmeister: A hash table might be too much given that I have a lot of these.
2014-07-09T11:55:03Z drmeister: I mean I need a lot of these property/alists
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2014-07-09T11:55:29Z Enfors: How about using a plist instead?
2014-07-09T11:55:38Z phadthai: is the list very frequently iterated through, or must entries be able to shadow without deleting old entries?  Must the list be sorted?  If not, hash tables might be what you want, actually
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2014-07-09T11:56:33Z phadthai: for alists to remove entries generally one pops the top, or creates a new list without the unwanted items
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2014-07-09T11:58:18Z Zhivago: You could also prefix with a deletion code.
2014-07-09T11:58:22Z drmeister: The list doesn't need to be sorted.  I don't know how often the list will be iterated through (I'll profile it when I get to that point and see if it's a problem).  I just want to be able to associate a few symbols and values together.
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2014-07-09T11:59:27Z Zhivago: Being able to push a (key, <deleted>) pair will make alists easy to implement.
2014-07-09T11:59:36Z Enfors: drmeister: Have you considered using a plist instead of an alist?
2014-07-09T12:00:11Z drmeister: What are the relative advantages of alists over plists?
2014-07-09T12:00:19Z drmeister: Zhivago: What is a deletion code?
2014-07-09T12:00:34Z drmeister: Zhivago: I see
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2014-07-09T12:00:49Z Enfors: drmeister: I don't know, but I know it's possible to delete entries from a plist.
2014-07-09T12:01:10Z Zhivago: It instructs your accessor to report the key as missing. :)
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2014-07-09T12:04:54Z drmeister: This is chemistry code, I have Molecules, Atoms, Bonds.   Lots of Atoms and Bonds.   Every Atom and Bond can have 0 to a small number of symbols associated with values - a little dictionary.   What data structure would be best to implement a large number of dictionaries?  alist?  plist?  hash-table?  I used C++ STL map's previously but they are a bit heavy-weight and they will not work with the garbage collector s
2014-07-09T12:04:54Z drmeister: o I have to replace them with a Common Lisp replacement.
2014-07-09T12:05:17Z edgar-rft: drmeister: (remove key alist :key #'car) removes the cons cell whose CAR is ITEM from ALIST
2014-07-09T12:05:31Z edgar-rft: ist that what you're looking for?
2014-07-09T12:06:28Z edgar-rft: ...error: whose CAR is KEY
2014-07-09T12:06:57Z drmeister: edgar-rft: Right - I think that's what I was looking for.
2014-07-09T12:07:14Z drmeister: I have to run - the trains are screwed up and I have to make sure I catch one.
2014-07-09T12:07:16Z drmeister: BBL
2014-07-09T12:07:23Z drmeister: Thanks for your help folks.
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2014-07-09T12:26:31Z moore33: I vote for DELETE instead of REMOVE.
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2014-07-09T12:31:39Z drmeister: Yeah - DELETE is what I'm looking for. I'll be implementing this in C++ for speed and because I don't need all the run-time checks and dispatching done by DELETE.
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2014-07-09T12:33:31Z drmeister: But I want it to be accessible from Common Lisp.
2014-07-09T12:36:11Z drmeister: Then the question is alist vs plist - I found this. http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/AlistVsPlist
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2014-07-09T12:37:58Z H4ns: drmeister: that is referring to emacs lisp, which seems to treat plists differently.
2014-07-09T12:38:42Z H4ns: drmeister: in common lisp, both alists and plists can and are used as generic data strutures, and both have the property that new elements can be added to the front, "overwriting" previous values with the same key.
2014-07-09T12:39:34Z drmeister: Why would they treat plists differently?  plists seem quite fundamental to me.  They do seem to have a requirement that the keys in a plist be unique, but in alists they don't have to be.   Weird.
2014-07-09T12:39:36Z H4ns: drmeister: personally, i prefer plists because they require less code to acess values "getf" vs "assoc+cdr", and i also prefer how they look like.  but that is just my preference.
2014-07-09T12:40:22Z H4ns: drmeister: i would recommend that you restrict your research and not worry about elisp.  everything else will just be confusing both you and people who try to help you :)
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2014-07-09T12:41:20Z drmeister: H4ns: Right and to check the key for an alist I need to use CAR and for a plist it is right there.
2014-07-09T12:41:31Z H4ns: drmeister: when it comes to representing these small lookup tables in your objects, just use alists or plists for now and replace them by something smarter if lookups become a performance issue.  expose only an abstract interface so that you have the freedom to change the representation later.
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2014-07-09T12:43:19Z drmeister: H4ns: That pretty much sums up what I'm doing although I'd lost my concern about hiding the implementation details but your point about using an abstract interface is a good one.
2014-07-09T12:45:49Z drmeister: Actually, there is already an abstract interface in place, I'm changing the implementation to make it compatible with the garbage collector.
2014-07-09T12:46:15Z drmeister: I was using C++ STL maps but they don't work with my garbage collectors.
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2014-07-09T12:47:29Z drmeister: The only associative data structures I have that work with the GC are hash-tables, alists/plists or roll my own using vectors.
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2014-07-09T12:49:05Z francogrex: Hi I am posting this riddle again: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143127 how can I get to a "null , 6" format output in the last (3rd) case?
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2014-07-09T12:52:11Z moore33: (let ((A nil) (B 6))
2014-07-09T12:52:11Z moore33:   (format nil "~:[null~*~;~a~] , ~:[null~;~a~]"
2014-07-09T12:52:11Z moore33:    A A B B))
2014-07-09T12:52:39Z moore33: excuse the formatting; lemme see if I can figure out how to paste :)
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2014-07-09T12:52:52Z francogrex: no it's ok
2014-07-09T12:53:24Z moore33: http://paste.lisp.org/+32FR/1
2014-07-09T12:53:29Z francogrex: so *~ comes in added to that? what logic?
2014-07-09T12:53:51Z moore33: It eats the argument that you were blowing off with your "null" output.
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2014-07-09T12:55:00Z francogrex: understanding format requires PhD studies
2014-07-09T12:55:56Z moore33: francogrex: The bug was that the second conditional was seeing the nil left over from the processing of the first.
2014-07-09T12:56:39Z moore33: Yeah, it's tempting, though rarely productive, to attempt ever more spectacular format pyrotechnics.
2014-07-09T12:57:01Z moore33: But it can be a time and space saver if you know what you're doing.
2014-07-09T12:58:02Z H4ns: you can also skip back, so (format nil "~:[null~;~:*~a], ~:[null~;~:*~a]" A B) would work as well
2014-07-09T12:58:13Z H4ns: and i'd argue that it'd be nicer
2014-07-09T12:58:35Z moore33: yep
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2014-07-09T13:02:47Z francogrex: something's not right there
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2014-07-09T13:06:09Z moore33: H4ns's expression does have typos -- should be ~] -- but it does work otherwise.
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2014-07-09T13:08:31Z francogrex: yes it works
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2014-07-09T13:15:28Z H4ns: oops, sorry.
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2014-07-09T13:22:13Z Enfors: Does anyone know if the wxWidgets support for Lisp is complete enough to be useful? I realise that's a difficult question because it depends on your needs, but...
2014-07-09T13:22:57Z Xach: Enfors: I don't think I've heard of anyone using it
2014-07-09T13:23:17Z Enfors: That pretty much answers that, then. Thanks. So, what *do* people use?
2014-07-09T13:23:30Z eudoxia: Enfors: CommonQt
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2014-07-09T13:24:12Z Enfors: Ah. Qt is nice. I wrote a Qt / Python twitter client once.
2014-07-09T13:24:44Z Xach: Enfors: CAPI is used also.
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2014-07-09T13:25:02Z Enfors: Ok, thanks guys.
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2014-07-09T13:25:37Z eudoxia: Enfors: if you want an example of a complete CommonQt project, that's Shinmera's Parasol
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2014-07-09T13:26:21Z Enfors: Also, I looked into the possibilities of getting ncurses to work with Lisp. I found a page that referred to installing it with asdf - which, as I understand it, has been superceeded by Quicklisp? Is that correct? I have a feeling Xach might be the guy to ask... =)
2014-07-09T13:26:44Z Enfors: eudoxia: Parasol? I'll look into it, thanks.
2014-07-09T13:26:53Z Xach: Enfors: that's not correct.
2014-07-09T13:27:14Z eudoxia: Enfors: ASDF is the build system and Quicklisp is the package manager
2014-07-09T13:27:23Z Xach: ASDF is a tool for building and loading Lisp projects. Quicklisp adds automatically fetching stuff, and uses ASDF for building and loading.
2014-07-09T13:27:45Z Enfors: Oh, I see. Thanks guys.
2014-07-09T13:27:59Z eudoxia: Enfors: What was superseded by Quicklisp was an older project, asdf-install. It's like how pip superseded easy_install
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2014-07-09T13:28:43Z Enfors: Man, it's so much easier to learn a new language when you have a window on your screen where you can ask questions, and get answers from the best people in the field. You guys are awesome.
2014-07-09T13:29:10Z oleo: jep, it requires an environment.....
2014-07-09T13:29:18Z oleo: like in real life....
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2014-07-09T13:29:35Z Xach: Enfors: Careful, you'll also get answers from some of the worst people too. It can be hard to tell which is which initially.
2014-07-09T13:29:49Z Xach: But I can't recommend personal interaction highly enough for making progress.
2014-07-09T13:29:58Z Enfors: Well, perhaps, but I'm sure even the worst people's information is better than mine.
2014-07-09T13:30:08Z H4ns: Xach: you be the master of passive aggression today
2014-07-09T13:30:36Z Xach: Enfors: I wish that was the case.
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2014-07-09T13:31:31Z Enfors: I hope I'll learn enough that I'll be able to answer questions here eventually, and thus pay it forward.
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2014-07-09T13:34:49Z Shinmera: Good afternoon, everyone
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2014-07-09T13:35:21Z Enfors: Good afternoon!
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2014-07-09T13:37:03Z jusss: good evening
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2014-07-09T13:39:03Z Enfors: Hypothetically speaking, if I was totally clueless, and typed (require :asdf-install), and got the message "Module ASDF-INSTALL was not provided by any function on *MODULE-PROVIDER-FUNCTIONS*.", then, hypothetically, what should I do to correct it? =)
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2014-07-09T13:39:33Z Xach: Give up and ignore anything that references asdf-install
2014-07-09T13:39:34Z H4ns: Enfors: you should neither attempt to use require nor asdf-install
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2014-07-09T13:40:03Z dlowe: An asdf-install purge of cliki might not be a terrible idea.
2014-07-09T13:40:26Z Enfors: ... but... but... it's the ncurses installation instructions that refer to asdf-install... this is what I was referring to when I said it was my impression that quicklisp had superceeded asdf(-install).
2014-07-09T13:40:26Z Xach: asdf install has a right to be forgotten
2014-07-09T13:40:33Z Enfors: Hahah
2014-07-09T13:41:09Z hitecnologys: Enfors: seriously.
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2014-07-09T13:41:13Z pjb: quicklisp has totally superceeded asdf-install.  It uses asdf.
2014-07-09T13:41:13Z stanislav: Enfors: just quickload cl-charms just as you quickload all the rest
2014-07-09T13:41:25Z Enfors: I assume this means nobody's using ncurses in Lisp, and that it's therefore probably out of date.
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2014-07-09T13:41:34Z Shinmera: Outdated docs make me a panda
2014-07-09T13:41:37Z hitecnologys: Enfors: you're using wrong cl-charms.
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2014-07-09T13:41:51Z hitecnologys: Enfors: you should use the one which quicklisp provides.
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2014-07-09T13:42:14Z Shinmera: *a sad panda
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2014-07-09T13:42:19Z Xach: Enfors: that's not a bad inference, but you have to be careful to distinguish that particular library from other libraries that might provide ncurses or ncurses-like functionality.
2014-07-09T13:42:20Z Enfors: I have no idea what on earth this "cl-charms" of which you speak is.
2014-07-09T13:42:40Z hitecnologys: Enfors: cl-charms is FFI bindings to libcurses.
2014-07-09T13:42:53Z dlowe: Xach: would you be interested in patches that add support for multiple quicklisp repos and/or mirrors?
2014-07-09T13:42:58Z Enfors: But I did type (ql:quickinstall "cl-charms") on a whim, and now it's doing... something.
2014-07-09T13:43:00Z Xach: Patches to what?
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2014-07-09T13:43:12Z Xach: Enfors: signaling an error, i hope.
2014-07-09T13:43:13Z dlowe: Xach: The quicklisp client
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2014-07-09T13:43:27Z Xach: It already supports multiple quicklisp repos.
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2014-07-09T13:43:51Z Xach: Mirrors I'd like to support by making "fetch" 100x smarter, and hookable. (right now it knows only http and is not hookable at all)
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2014-07-09T13:43:58Z Enfors: Xach: No, it's not singalling an error, it's downloading and installing a bunch of stuff I think.
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2014-07-09T13:44:12Z Enfors: hitechologys: What is FFI?
2014-07-09T13:44:18Z Xach: Enfors: that's weird, because there is no symbol named QL::QUICKINSTALL.
2014-07-09T13:44:20Z hitecnologys: Enfors: foreign functions interface.
2014-07-09T13:44:33Z Enfors: Oh, wait, I get it now! Charms / curses! I'm an idiot.
2014-07-09T13:44:57Z eudoxia: Enfors: http://quickdocs.org/cl-charms/ docs and http://quickdocs.org/cl-charms/api api reference
2014-07-09T13:45:16Z Enfors: Xach: Then that's probably not exactly what I typed, lemme check... right, I typed (ql:quickload "cl-charms")
2014-07-09T13:45:20Z Xach: phew
2014-07-09T13:45:37Z hitecnologys: Enfors: I don't think "charms" has anything to do with "curses". At least it's original author explains it differently.
2014-07-09T13:46:30Z Enfors: eudoxia: Wow, thanks. It would be useful if the wiki page where it says stuff about ncurses mentioned that. If only... if only a wiki could somehow be edited by anyone, so that they could fix things like this themselves instead of complaining about it on Freenode!! :-)
2014-07-09T13:47:00Z hitecnologys: Enfors: cliki can be edited by anyone.
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2014-07-09T13:47:18Z eudoxia: cliki needs more silicon valleyish css to hide its flaws
2014-07-09T13:47:49Z Enfors: hitecnology: that's the joke, yes. :-)
2014-07-09T13:47:51Z hitecnologys: eudoxia: indeed. The interface isn't really intuitive. It took me some time before I found "edit" button.
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2014-07-09T13:48:07Z hitecnologys: Enfors: I see.
2014-07-09T13:48:08Z Enfors: Oh thank goodness, up-to-date documentation!
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2014-07-09T13:49:05Z hitecnologys: Enfors: the documentation isn't really complete. It still needs writing.
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2014-07-09T13:49:27Z Enfors: Oh goodness. You're its current maintainer, aren't you?
2014-07-09T13:49:28Z eudoxia: hitecnologys: well it looks like a one-to-one correspondence to the ncurses API
2014-07-09T13:49:31Z hitecnologys: Enfors: the API docs that quickdocs provide, they're just for reference.
2014-07-09T13:49:55Z Enfors: I can't believe this.
2014-07-09T13:49:55Z hitecnologys: eudoxia: not really. It still lacks lots of stuff. I'm too lazy to add it but I work at it in my spare time.
2014-07-09T13:50:01Z hitecnologys: Enfors: apparently.
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2014-07-09T13:50:05Z eudoxia: ok
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2014-07-09T13:50:51Z hitecnologys: Enfors: also check out cl-tui if you want text UI. It's not finished yet but it is usable at the current stage.
2014-07-09T13:50:58Z Enfors: I have questions about Quicklisp, and ITS AUTHOR answers me. Then I have questions about cl-charms, and ITS CURRENT MAINTAINER answers me. How can even I fail under such conditions?
2014-07-09T13:51:31Z hitecnologys: Enfors: Lisp has small community so the change of this happening is quite high.
2014-07-09T13:51:31Z Xach: Don't get any questions about Lisp, unless you can speak to the spirit world
2014-07-09T13:51:48Z eudoxia: we're such a great community
2014-07-09T13:51:49Z Enfors: hitecnology: tui? Is that something similar to dialog?
2014-07-09T13:51:52Z eudoxia hugs everyone
2014-07-09T13:52:00Z hitecnologys: Enfors: tex user interface
2014-07-09T13:52:19Z Enfors: tex or text?
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2014-07-09T13:52:21Z stanislav: Enfors: yeah, Fare comes here, too, from time to time
2014-07-09T13:52:22Z hitecnologys: eudoxia: weee!
2014-07-09T13:52:32Z Enfors: Who's fare?
2014-07-09T13:52:36Z hitecnologys: Enfors: text, yes. I mistyped.
2014-07-09T13:52:40Z eudoxia: Enfors: the maintainer of ASDF
2014-07-09T13:52:44Z Enfors: Oh I see.
2014-07-09T13:52:46Z eudoxia: actually i think he doesn't do that anymore
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2014-07-09T13:52:58Z Shinmera: Yeah Fare stepped down
2014-07-09T13:53:13Z wizzo: this feels like a dumb question but does the order i use defun matter? like can i reference a function that is defined later on in the file?
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2014-07-09T13:53:33Z Shinmera: You can but you'll get a warning about it
2014-07-09T13:53:34Z Enfors: hitecnologys: But ncurses / charms is text too, how is cl-tui different?
2014-07-09T13:53:35Z hitecnologys: wizzo: yes, you can.
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2014-07-09T13:53:48Z wizzo: is it bad to do?
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2014-07-09T13:54:00Z hitecnologys: Enfors: cl-tui provides high-level functions to work with. Frames, tabs, etc.
2014-07-09T13:54:07Z hitecnologys: wizzo: no, no at all.
2014-07-09T13:54:16Z Xach: wizzo: it is not bad
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2014-07-09T13:54:28Z Enfors: hitecnologys: Oh that's fantastic. Don't tell me you made that too?
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2014-07-09T13:54:35Z H4ns: Shinmera: you won't get a warning.
2014-07-09T13:54:38Z wizzo: sick. thanks!
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2014-07-09T13:54:43Z hitecnologys: Enfors: I didn't. naryl did.
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2014-07-09T13:54:55Z Enfors: I guess he comes here too?
2014-07-09T13:55:03Z Xach: In some implementations you may get a "style-warning" but that doesn't mean it's bad style, it means the implementation is saying something like "i could do more with your code if you do things differently"
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2014-07-09T13:55:11Z hitecnologys: Enfors: yes. From time to time.
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2014-07-09T13:55:14Z Shinmera: H4ns: If the function isn't compiled yet you do
2014-07-09T13:55:18Z Enfors: I should have known.
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2014-07-09T13:56:31Z H4ns: Shinmera: no.
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2014-07-09T13:57:33Z H4ns: Shinmera: at least in sbcl, you don't.  at least if you define all the functions that you reference within the same file.
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2014-07-09T13:58:08Z hitecnologys agrees with H4ns
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2014-07-09T13:58:30Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: you don't get a warning unless you do #'foo. Then you might, IIRC.
2014-07-09T13:58:51Z Shinmera: H4ns: http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.07.09-15:58:44.png
2014-07-09T13:58:59Z Enfors: Hmm. I wonder if running a cl-charms application in an *ansi-term* inside Emacs would work? But then again, I guess I first need to learn how to build Lisp applications into some sort of binary / script that can be run from the shell to start with...
2014-07-09T13:59:00Z H4ns: hitecnologys: not even then
2014-07-09T13:59:04Z wizzo: oh that's kind of what i'm about to do
2014-07-09T13:59:26Z wizzo: warning aside that is still ok right?
2014-07-09T13:59:30Z H4ns: Shinmera: try compiling the file
2014-07-09T13:59:57Z H4ns: i can't reproduce the behavior in sbcl anyway.
2014-07-09T14:00:09Z pjb: or add: (declaim (ftype function bar)) at the start of a.lisp
2014-07-09T14:00:15Z hitecnologys: Enfors: I don't think it would. Emacs term dosn't implement all requirements for libcurses to run. You should run swank in open terminal and then attach to it and run your programs there while editing sources with emacs. That's what I do.
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2014-07-09T14:00:31Z Shinmera: H4ns: Yeah compiling avoids the warning. For some reason I recall ASDF throwing the style warnings, either it's doing something wrong or I'm misremembering
2014-07-09T14:00:42Z pjb: From emacs, you can always (shell-command "xterm -c lalala&")
2014-07-09T14:00:44Z Shinmera: H4ns: probably the latter
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2014-07-09T14:01:03Z pjb:  (shell-command "xterm -e lalala&") ; I mean.
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2014-07-09T14:01:07Z Enfors: hitecnologys: Swank? Yeah, I've heard that word before, I'll look into it to find out what it actually is. :-) Thanks.
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2014-07-09T14:01:46Z Enfors: pjb: Hmm, yeah that's useful! I could make a small interactive elisp function that does that for me, thanks.
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2014-07-09T14:01:49Z pjb: possibly with -hold too. (shell-command "xterm -hold -e lalala&")
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2014-07-09T14:02:01Z hitecnologys: Enfors: SWANK is the thing that you use when using SLIME. Think of it as of "application server", it's the closest definition I can think of.
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2014-07-09T14:02:36Z Enfors: hitecnologys: Oh right, I remember now, I see something about "Swank" whenever I start slime.
2014-07-09T14:03:02Z hitecnologys: Enfors: it's just a server to which SLIME attaches.
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2014-07-09T14:03:16Z Enfors: I see.
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2014-07-09T14:06:55Z Shinmera: "just" doesn't do swank justice, it does a lot of stuff toallow Slime to be as great as it is.
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2014-07-09T14:08:31Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: yes, I've summarized the idea.
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2014-07-09T14:12:14Z Enfors: Hmm. I think I'll try to see if I can produce a Lisp binary / script / however it turns out to work, that I can start from the shell. That's something I need to learn sooner or later. I think there was something on lispm.de about it...
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2014-07-09T14:12:48Z stanislav: Enfors: try cl-launch
2014-07-09T14:12:54Z Xach: I use buildapp for that.
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2014-07-09T14:14:05Z Enfors: lispm.de says to use (cl:save-application), I'll try that first.
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2014-07-09T14:14:29Z Xach: Where does it say that? It is not right.
2014-07-09T14:14:34Z hitecnologys: Enfors: won't work on sbcl.
2014-07-09T14:14:40Z Xach: Or any other conforming Lisp.
2014-07-09T14:14:57Z hitecnologys: Xach: hmm, I though that was from CLisp.
2014-07-09T14:15:02Z Enfors: I'm on ccl, on a Raspberry pi
2014-07-09T14:15:13Z Xach: then it is ccl:save-application
2014-07-09T14:15:14Z hitecnologys: Enfors: won't work on CCL either.
2014-07-09T14:15:33Z Enfors: Xach: Oh right, I mistyped, ccl it is.
2014-07-09T14:15:40Z Enfors: Thanks.
2014-07-09T14:15:44Z stanislav: Enfors: often you don't need not only standalone executables, but even images
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2014-07-09T14:16:03Z stanislav: a sh wrapper may be enough
2014-07-09T14:16:18Z Enfors: stanislav: What? Too many negations, parsing failed!
2014-07-09T14:17:22Z Enfors: You mean, like a shell scrip that says "/path/to/armcl [some flags] myfile.lisp"?
2014-07-09T14:17:26Z stanislav: Enfors: here on Debian I have SBCL images ~40MiB and SBCL binaries ~60MiB. That's an overkill. A shell wrapper often suffices.
2014-07-09T14:17:42Z Enfors: stanislav: whoa, yeah I'd say.
2014-07-09T14:18:09Z Enfors: Back in the day, I could make a hello world binary in C usins SAS/C on my Amiga that was 238 bytes!
2014-07-09T14:18:11Z stanislav: I usually use cl-launch, it's fairly sophisticated
2014-07-09T14:18:24Z hitecnologys: Woah, SAVE-APPLICATION really does work. I seem not to know CCL at all.
2014-07-09T14:18:24Z Shinmera: I still wish for a tree-shaker
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2014-07-09T14:18:41Z stanislav tries to find out if buildapp necessarily saves executables or no
2014-07-09T14:18:59Z Xach: stanislav: it can save just core files
2014-07-09T14:19:01Z Enfors: Shinmera: Tree-shaker? You mean something to weed out all the stuff you don't need from the 60 MB binary? Yeah, I'd say.
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2014-07-09T14:19:10Z dim: well I used to worry about 20MB compressed images, but really, I don't care anymore
2014-07-09T14:19:12Z stanislav: Xach: thanks
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2014-07-09T14:19:26Z H4ns: yeah, we have not had that discussion in a while!  hooray!
2014-07-09T14:19:26Z stanislav: Enfors: but cl-launch depends on ASDF3
2014-07-09T14:19:40Z Xach: ccl comes with asdf3
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2014-07-09T14:19:51Z dim: it's awesome to be able to make those images, and to load sql, html, javascript and css files right into the binary when you embed a web app (monitoring, admin UI, or the application itself, even)
2014-07-09T14:19:52Z Enfors: dim: I care, because if I want to use a lisp application from a shell script, it might be started hundreds of times.
2014-07-09T14:20:26Z Shinmera: Enfors: Sadly such a thing isn't an easy task. Someone had a go at it once with some nice results but I don't know if it works still or how usable it would be http://jsnell.iki.fi/blog/archive/2005-07-06.html
2014-07-09T14:20:26Z dim: I didn't find the right way to organise the shell script so that the startup time would be acceptable
2014-07-09T14:20:40Z dim: loading the dependencies with quicklisp and asdf was too slow for an interactive command line
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2014-07-09T14:20:50Z stanislav: Enfors: which version of cl-launch do your repos provide?
2014-07-09T14:20:51Z dim: buildapp is quite good for that
2014-07-09T14:21:19Z hitecnologys: Enfors: then you shouldn't save image for every script but rather save one image for everything and then symlink, if possible. If not, then yes, one image per script.
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2014-07-09T14:21:27Z stanislav: dim: that's not because of scripts. You can use on image with a lot of libraries for the scripts you actually use
2014-07-09T14:21:35Z Enfors: stanislav: I have no idea. Are we talking something I should check with apt-cache, or something I should check with quicklisp? (if so, how do I do that?)
2014-07-09T14:22:13Z stanislav: Enfors: which is your distro if I may ask?
2014-07-09T14:22:24Z Enfors: stanislav: Raspbian
2014-07-09T14:22:31Z Enfors: Or however it's spelled
2014-07-09T14:22:43Z dim: stanislav: I'm currently doing separate applications rather than a bunch of scripts
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2014-07-09T14:22:58Z dim: that said buildapp docs include an example on how to symlink and dispatch
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2014-07-09T14:24:07Z stanislav: apparently raspbian has cl-launch 4, then you can apt-get install it
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2014-07-09T14:24:21Z Enfors: stanislav: Cool, thanks!
2014-07-09T14:24:23Z Xach: Unfortunately, I think symlink and dispatch is currently broken. I am working on a fix.
2014-07-09T14:24:23Z stanislav: it's a shell script and it may be convenient to have it in /usr/bin
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2014-07-09T14:25:56Z Enfors: Installing cl-launch now...
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2014-07-09T14:27:21Z Zhivago: Providing you have comprehensive input samples, tracing might be more interesting than shaking.
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2014-07-09T14:27:53Z moore33: Tree shaking is a fight for the last century...
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2014-07-09T14:28:39Z Zhivago: Well, distribution might provide a good excuse for it.
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2014-07-09T14:30:02Z moore33: Xach: Have you (or anyone) ever loaded every quicklisp package into an image and measured the size of the resulting core?
2014-07-09T14:30:27Z Xach: moore33: it's not easy, due to package conflicts
2014-07-09T14:30:38Z moore33: heh
2014-07-09T14:30:39Z Xach: moore33: possibly with some hairy hacking you could do it, but i have not tried
2014-07-09T14:30:44Z Shinmera: Might be interesting to map out which projects cause conflicts
2014-07-09T14:30:59Z Xach: That could indeed be interesting
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2014-07-09T14:31:12Z Xach: I wrote qlmapper to try to mine such info, but haven't gotten far
2014-07-09T14:31:20Z moore33: We can take bets on the resulting size :)
2014-07-09T14:31:43Z Xach: I'd like to answer questions like "what packages does loading system foo (and just system foo) define?"
2014-07-09T14:32:12Z Xach: and then be able to answer questions like "What system provides package cl-foo?" or "what system provides symbol extremum?" etc.
2014-07-09T14:32:14Z moore33: In any event, I bet that size would be small compared to the size of many real programs.
2014-07-09T14:32:27Z Xach: Or video games
2014-07-09T14:32:33Z moore33: exactly
2014-07-09T14:32:56Z Xach: Still, it's one thing to say "see, it's not as bad as it could be" and another to say "isn't it nicely small"
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2014-07-09T14:33:19Z moore33: I'd say, "You have other things to worry about."
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2014-07-09T14:33:24Z Shinmera: I'm a perfectionist and I hate the idea of having to distribute a 60mb binary when it would fit into less than 1mb
2014-07-09T14:33:46Z Shinmera: Sure it's not high priority, but it's not like it's not an issue at all.
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2014-07-09T14:34:15Z moore33: Shinmera: 60mb is the image file size for Parasol?
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2014-07-09T14:34:20Z stassats: Shinmera: do you write in assembly?
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2014-07-09T14:34:51Z Shinmera: moore33: I wouldn't even bother making an image for that for a long while
2014-07-09T14:35:06Z moore33: Shinmera: Ok, then what?
2014-07-09T14:35:24Z Shinmera: moore33: I'm not sure what you're asking me
2014-07-09T14:35:55Z moore33: Shinmera: What program/system is 60mb when it could be 1mb.
2014-07-09T14:36:05Z stanislav: as Lisp is an alien, it's natural that the whole ecosystem should be supplied :)
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2014-07-09T14:36:38Z moore33: Just curious, cuz I don't think that 60mb is particularly epic :)
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2014-07-09T14:37:47Z Shinmera: moore33: I had a really small chat client at one point and distributing a whatever many mbs binary for that when it definitely could be much less just irked me a lot
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2014-07-09T14:38:21Z moore33: Shinmera:Fair enough.
2014-07-09T14:39:41Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: you can always use compressors.
2014-07-09T14:39:49Z H4ns: i'd say common lisp is not good for writing very small programs.
2014-07-09T14:40:02Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: I had core compression activated and it was still in the many mbs range
2014-07-09T14:40:04Z stanislav: if startup time doesn't matter much, one could just claim SBCL to be a dependency
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2014-07-09T14:40:28Z Xach: Yeah, compression goes from 60 to 20, not 60 to 5 or 1.
2014-07-09T14:40:45Z Shinmera: stanislav: In my case I wanted to distribute to normal users and not other devs, so an sbcl dependency doesn't fly well with me
2014-07-09T14:40:50Z moore33: So the .core for maxima is 86mb here, which doesn't strike me as a lot for a symbolic algebra program.
2014-07-09T14:40:50Z Shinmera: stanislav: especially considering windows
2014-07-09T14:41:27Z stanislav: Shinmera: oh, windows - I don't care
2014-07-09T14:41:28Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: well, that's the best you can get on SBCL. I've heard propietary implementation have ability to exclude certain parts of runtime in order to make executables smalller.
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2014-07-09T14:41:43Z stanislav: but for Linux I don't understand why a dependency is bad
2014-07-09T14:41:46Z Shinmera: stanislav: I wish I didn't have to either :)
2014-07-09T14:41:51Z moore33: hitecnologys: That's the "tree shaking" we're talking about.
2014-07-09T14:41:57Z stanislav: rather I'd say a monolithic binary is bad
2014-07-09T14:41:59Z hitecnologys: moore33: I see.
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2014-07-09T14:42:07Z H4ns: stanislav: why?
2014-07-09T14:43:14Z stanislav: well, with dependencies one can use newer versions of SBCL or libraries
2014-07-09T14:43:43Z H4ns: stanislav: and that would be good how?
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2014-07-09T14:43:53Z moore33: So maxima seems to be the 86mb core plus 55mb of stuff in its library. That doesn't count gnuplot or TeX; should it? Anyway, just not a lot.
2014-07-09T14:44:33Z stanislav: and of course, having two SBCL generated binaries on one computer is unpractical - SBCL itself should be factored out :)
2014-07-09T14:44:57Z Shinmera: a dependency means you need to worry about versions
2014-07-09T14:44:59Z H4ns: stanislav: i prefer my applications not to break because a build dependency is updated.
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2014-07-09T14:45:29Z H4ns: stanislav: and to me, personally, sbcl is a compiler, not a run-time component, and i want to install my applications independent of whatever compiler i choose to use.
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2014-07-09T14:46:27Z stanislav: when you build an executable, you just hide SBCL inside, so it's implicitly present at runtime
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2014-07-09T14:47:01Z H4ns: stanislav: that is what we're talking about, no?
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2014-07-09T14:47:21Z stanislav: uhm
2014-07-09T14:47:25Z stanislav: why hide it?
2014-07-09T14:48:07Z eudoxia: what about a lib[sbcl|ccl].[so|dll] to share the lisp runtime
2014-07-09T14:48:08Z H4ns: because independence.  because time to precious to waste with dependency issues unless needed.
2014-07-09T14:48:14Z H4ns: eudoxia: no.
2014-07-09T14:48:19Z stanislav: anyway, don't listen to me.  I'm not a developer, just an amateur. :(
2014-07-09T14:49:07Z Ralt: honestly my issue is that for non-lispers to install sbcl is ok, to install quicklisp and put the project somewhere asdf can require it etc is not ok
2014-07-09T14:49:28Z Ralt: s/install quicklisp//
2014-07-09T14:49:33Z stanislav: yeah, that's a problem
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2014-07-09T14:49:47Z hitecnologys: Quicklisp should be included in major Lisp implementations!
2014-07-09T14:49:53Z stanislav: +1
2014-07-09T14:50:02Z hitecnologys: (just kidding)
2014-07-09T14:50:29Z Ralt: so my only option to safely share my app is to use binaries
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2014-07-09T14:50:52Z moore33: Ralt: Or get it into quicklisp :)
2014-07-09T14:51:14Z Ralt: moore33: I think you missed the "for non-lispers" in my sentence :P
2014-07-09T14:51:16Z stanislav: Ralt: isn't it tedious to build separate binaries for lots of OSes?
2014-07-09T14:51:25Z Ralt: it is
2014-07-09T14:51:27Z hitecnologys: Ralt: you can set up your own QL dist and use it everywhere.
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2014-07-09T14:51:54Z stanislav: btw, yes
2014-07-09T14:52:04Z moore33: You want someone else to build it for you for lots of OSes; see Linux "distributions," for example.
2014-07-09T14:52:11Z hitecnologys: Ralt: then write a wrapper that'll include QL and download everything and distribute it.
2014-07-09T14:52:43Z Xach: That costs me 0.0005 every time someone downloads everything.
2014-07-09T14:52:50Z Xach: I'm not made of microcents!
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2014-07-09T14:53:31Z hitecnologys: Xach: that's the reason why I suggested setting his own distro.
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2014-07-09T14:54:18Z Xach: ok
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2014-07-09T14:54:25Z moore33: Just so what we know what we're arguing here: Blender, an app that certainly depends on lots of external libraries, is 43mb here! What's the problem?
2014-07-09T14:54:33Z hitecnologys: Xach: wait, it costs you 0.0005 to download *anything*?
2014-07-09T14:54:41Z hitecnologys: Xach: that's quite a lot, isn't it?
2014-07-09T14:54:52Z Xach: everything
2014-07-09T14:55:23Z hitecnologys: Holy moly. How much do you pay for hosting montly, if I may?
2014-07-09T14:55:28Z Xach: moore33: I think it would be ok if big functionality was big but small functionality was small. I think right now the choices is only big.
2014-07-09T14:56:02Z Xach: Again: would be nice. I understand the difficulty. Still would be nice for someone else to make it work, and then give away their work to me.
2014-07-09T14:56:06Z hitecnologys: s/montly/monthly/
2014-07-09T14:56:07Z Xach: hitecnologys: $5
2014-07-09T14:56:11Z Xach: that's american dollars
2014-07-09T14:56:20Z Ralt: so, 0.5euros
2014-07-09T14:56:26Z oGMo: moore33: for perspective, gcc is 220MB ;)
2014-07-09T14:56:35Z moore33: oGMo: There ya go.
2014-07-09T14:56:36Z hitecnologys: Xach: hmm. Not as much as I thought.
2014-07-09T14:56:46Z oGMo: also, doesn't blender use a lot of shared libs? e.g. python etc?
2014-07-09T14:56:49Z moore33: Ralt: More like 5 euros.
2014-07-09T14:57:12Z Ralt: moore33: I was kidding. But no, it's more around 3euros
2014-07-09T14:57:24Z Xach: I am saving my euros for my upcoming international lisp conference trip
2014-07-09T14:57:27Z Ralt: 3.67euros according to google
2014-07-09T14:57:38Z moore33: oGMo: Yes. It includes its own python, but I don't know if that is already in the binary.
2014-07-09T14:57:49Z hitecnologys: moore33: no, it isn't.
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2014-07-09T14:57:54Z moore33: Ralt: If you include TVA it's more like 5 euros :)
2014-07-09T14:57:57Z hitecnologys: moore33: python comes separately.
2014-07-09T14:58:21Z Ralt: moore33: hm, because USD don't have taxes?
2014-07-09T14:58:25Z Shinmera: Hey I cover twice the server costs of Quicklisp. Nice.
2014-07-09T14:58:41Z moore33: Ralt: Sales taxes are almost never quoted in prices in the U.S.
2014-07-09T14:58:49Z oGMo: hitecnologys: i'm not sure, it includes the python standard library but not a shared lib, so i think it's static
2014-07-09T14:59:31Z hitecnologys: oGMo: hmm. Mine Blender pulled Python as dependency. I guess it includes it but it also needs Python for something else.
2014-07-09T14:59:37Z oGMo: that said, sbcl to blender is unfair, sbcl to gcc + headers is probably more fair
2014-07-09T14:59:57Z hitecnologys: Indeed.
2014-07-09T14:59:59Z oGMo: hitecnologys: oh, if you built it all bets are off ;)
2014-07-09T15:00:28Z oGMo: er, also, blender is 246MB, unless you're just counting the binary
2014-07-09T15:00:37Z moore33: oGMo: I was.
2014-07-09T15:00:57Z oGMo: moore33: well 2.71 from the site is 98MB, too
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2014-07-09T15:01:18Z oGMo: and that's rather unfair, since a vast amount of its functionality is external
2014-07-09T15:01:43Z moore33: Anyway, the point is (and always was) that the size of CL implementations is not that significant compared to the size of applications built with and without CL.
2014-07-09T15:01:51Z oGMo: oh definitely
2014-07-09T15:01:56Z oGMo: these days especially
2014-07-09T15:02:12Z moore33: And I'm not sure which way the fairness cuts :)
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2014-07-09T15:02:38Z oGMo: unfair to lisp or other apps to just count binary size
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2014-07-09T15:03:13Z oGMo: if space is a consideration i think the bigger concern would be minimum memory footprint with sbcl, though that's quickly diminishing in mobile space too
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2014-07-09T15:03:30Z oGMo: iirc ccl is far smaller there
2014-07-09T15:03:35Z moore33: And the embedded space.
2014-07-09T15:04:01Z oGMo: moore33: that's a huge spectrum
2014-07-09T15:04:16Z moore33: Yes, I believe ccl gets away with a tiny image file, though I don't have it here to check.
2014-07-09T15:04:53Z oGMo: 25MB possibly uncompressed here
2014-07-09T15:05:01Z oGMo: 64-bit; 32 is 18
2014-07-09T15:05:34Z moore33: oGMo: It is, so I'll pick one point and say that people are happily running CL on the RasberryPi and BeagleBone Black, which are good proxies for a certain class of embedded device.
2014-07-09T15:06:02Z moore33: oGMo: Ok, not quite as tiny as I thought, but still.
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2014-07-09T15:50:55Z |3b|: moore33: yes, i am the maintainer of cl-opengl
2014-07-09T15:57:41Z moore33: |3b|: Well, cool. I'm using it to write a modern OpenGL scene graph thingie.
2014-07-09T15:58:09Z moore33: I had a go at my own Lisp OpenGL interface years ago, but cl-opengl wins :)
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2014-07-09T15:58:35Z moore33: |3b|: Are you maintaining glop too?
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2014-07-09T16:11:52Z |3b|: moore33: i think Patzy is still more or less maintaining glop as far as i know
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2014-07-09T16:12:51Z moore33: |3b|:Ok, I encountered a bug running test-gl-hello-gl3 and will make a pull request.
2014-07-09T16:13:19Z moore33: A core context test could be cool too.
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2014-07-09T17:46:25Z jasom: Implementing a lisp can cause all sorts of funny bugs.  I just had my test for COND fail and couldn't figure out why, until I realized that I had failed to intern NIL into common-lisp, so it was reading nil as cl-user::nil which is not false
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2014-07-09T19:10:25Z oleo: http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~meidanis/courses/mc336/2006s2/funcional/L-99_Ninety-Nine_Lisp_Problems.html <- what's up with this site the links there are broken ?
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2014-07-09T19:19:07Z pgomes: not all ...
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2014-07-09T19:19:31Z pgomes: I tried the first two
2014-07-09T19:19:33Z pgomes: and it works
2014-07-09T19:19:34Z dlowe: It's being served from Apache, a well-known non-lisp program
2014-07-09T19:20:01Z oleo: i tried exercise 2.64 of sicp in cl (sbcl), it fails somehow....
2014-07-09T19:20:38Z oleo: works for small lists....
2014-07-09T19:20:42Z oleo: like of size 3 or so....
2014-07-09T19:20:50Z oleo: anything greater than that ....boom
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2014-07-09T19:43:55Z joe-w-bimedina: If I am writing a conditional in a COND statement for the function write http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_wr_pr.htm  and other functions in that COND statement can have any number of arbritray arguments but never any &key arguments,   what is the best way to make sure write only gets called when write is expected to be called?
2014-07-09T19:45:00Z moore33: What?
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2014-07-09T19:45:49Z joe-w-bimedina: should I rewrite my post?
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2014-07-09T19:46:45Z moore33: I'm afraid it's not very clear.
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2014-07-09T19:47:20Z joe-w-bimedina: well if cl:write is in a COND statement, is (symbolp (second args)) a safe way to dispatch it?
2014-07-09T19:47:25Z moore33: Maybe an example would help?
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2014-07-09T19:48:24Z moore33: Sorry, I'm just getting what you mean by "in a cond statement."
2014-07-09T19:48:40Z joe-w-bimedina: I have an example..one sec
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2014-07-09T19:55:59Z joe-w-bimedina: here is my COND statement: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/9251fe65a4d9c1a31e7d it is really simple. I call CL::WRITE in the first slot if (symbolp (second args)). I wondered if this is safe.  Other functions have been added to that COND statement I posted and  so you know for reference all there conditions have been satisfied enough
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2014-07-09T20:00:46Z stassats: what is it that you're trying to do?
2014-07-09T20:01:36Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm shadowing cl::write and bring it back in in my own COND statement
2014-07-09T20:01:56Z stassats: what for?
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2014-07-09T20:02:17Z joe-w-bimedina: so I can call my methods "write"
2014-07-09T20:02:49Z stassats: your methods?
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2014-07-09T20:03:45Z joe-w-bimedina: my overloaded defmethods that I would also like to call "write"
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2014-07-09T20:06:00Z stassats: and the pasted thing is a function?
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2014-07-09T20:07:14Z joe-w-bimedina: I miswrote the "write" function I posted will dispatch to my defgeneric for the methods(overloaded) named "*write"
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2014-07-09T20:26:16Z pjb: oleo: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/l99/index.html
2014-07-09T20:26:34Z oleo: thank you pjb
2014-07-09T20:26:59Z joe-w-bimedina: that is a great link for anyone thanks for posting
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2014-07-09T20:28:07Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: your posted code will call cl::write iff the 2nd argument is a symbol.  If that's what you want, then you're doing it correectly
2014-07-09T20:28:59Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: perhaps what you want to do instead is to specialize print-object though?
2014-07-09T20:29:02Z jasom: clhs print-object
2014-07-09T20:29:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pr_obj.htm
2014-07-09T20:30:20Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm shadowing cl::write so I need to provide that,  or is that not what you meant
2014-07-09T20:30:59Z joe-w-bimedina: just remembered cl:write can be called with no arguments so that won't work
2014-07-09T20:31:10Z joe-w-bimedina: my idea that is
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2014-07-09T20:31:35Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: I'm saying that why are you shadowing cl::write instead of just defining custom print-object methods?
2014-07-09T20:32:24Z jasom: And write cannot be called with no arguments; it mas a single mandatory argument
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2014-07-09T20:33:37Z joe-w-bimedina: I meant it has to be called with one... do you see holes in my latest gist update...are those conditions that call cl:write safe
2014-07-09T20:34:08Z oleo: by the way someone should check if stuff from l99 is working on sbcl from time to time....
2014-07-09T20:34:09Z oleo: eheh
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2014-07-09T20:34:37Z oleo: maybe additional bug-indicator....
2014-07-09T20:35:17Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: you want (null (cdr args)) not (null (second args))
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2014-07-09T20:35:35Z jasom: And you might as well use keywordp rather than symbolp, that makes it more obvious what you're trying to do
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2014-07-09T20:36:23Z jasom: and anyway (null (second args)) is a superset of (symbolp (second args)) since nil is a symbol
2014-07-09T20:36:30Z jasom: s/superset/subset
2014-07-09T20:36:37Z stassats: a call to write may have any there symbol
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2014-07-09T20:37:00Z jasom: stassats: write object &key array base case circle escape gensym length level lines miser-width pprint-dispatch pretty radix readably right-margin stream
2014-07-09T20:37:09Z stassats: (write 10 'some-symbol 20 :allow-other-keys t)
2014-07-09T20:37:18Z jasom: okay fine.
2014-07-09T20:37:28Z jasom: stassats: in that case it can be anything at all
2014-07-09T20:37:36Z stassats: not really
2014-07-09T20:37:36Z jasom: (write 10 11 20 :allow-other-keys t)
2014-07-09T20:37:53Z jasom: stassats: in safe code, when argument suppressing is in effect, no error is raised
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2014-07-09T20:39:04Z jasom: clhs 3.5.1.5 "If this situation occurs in a safe call, an error of type program-error must be signaled unless keyword argument checking is suppressed as described in Section 3.4.1.4.1 (Suppressing Keyword Argument Checking);"
2014-07-09T20:39:13Z stassats: that doesn't allow anything
2014-07-09T20:40:27Z |3b|: (let ((foo :stream)) (write 1 foo *debug-io*)) ?
2014-07-09T20:40:38Z stassats: that is not a macro?
2014-07-09T20:40:41Z |3b|: never mind, it is looking after it is evaluated
2014-07-09T20:40:47Z stassats: jasom: now i see what you mean
2014-07-09T20:41:18Z |3b| thinks pprint dispatch table is better the print-object methods though... much easier to disable in the debugger when they are broken
2014-07-09T20:41:36Z stassats: jasom: but it's a bit vague
2014-07-09T20:41:53Z jasom: stassats: the two ways of interpreting that section are: 1) The spec allows invalid kwargs in that case or 2) The spec is specifically creating an undefined situation in safe code.
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2014-07-09T20:42:01Z stassats: it says "and in an unsafe call the situation has undefined consequences.", which sounds like it has undefined consequences even if :allow-other-keys is true
2014-07-09T20:42:47Z jasom: stassats: agreeed
2014-07-09T20:42:59Z stassats: it probably doesn't mean that
2014-07-09T20:43:03Z jasom: stassats: I read that to be "unsafe code can assume you did the Right Thing, and optimize accordingly"
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2014-07-09T20:44:47Z stassats: (write 10 :allow-other-keys t 10) is supposed to be valid as well
2014-07-09T20:45:31Z stassats: i don't think anybody cares, though
2014-07-09T20:47:46Z joe-w-bimedina: thank you for that, the (null (cdr args)) will help out alot of other ways too.  reading what you guys said, too...good stuff
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2014-07-09T20:48:49Z pjb: (CL:WRITE 10 :allow-other-keys t 10) is wrong.
2014-07-09T20:48:57Z stassats: says who?
2014-07-09T20:49:07Z pjb: when you have keys, you MUST have an even number of remaining arguments.
2014-07-09T20:49:31Z stassats: not really
2014-07-09T20:49:36Z pjb: yes, really.
2014-07-09T20:49:48Z stassats: clhs 3.5.1.6
2014-07-09T20:49:48Z specbot: Odd Number of Keyword Arguments: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_eaf.htm
2014-07-09T20:49:50Z pjb: and keys MUST be symbols, they can't be any random object,
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2014-07-09T20:49:56Z stassats: not really
2014-07-09T20:50:14Z pjb: Read that page!
2014-07-09T20:50:17Z oleo: lol
2014-07-09T20:51:20Z pjb: "An odd number of arguments must not be supplied for the keyword parameters."
2014-07-09T20:51:55Z pjb: That the error may not be signaled doesn't remove the fact that an odd number of arguments MUST NOT be supplied.
2014-07-09T20:52:00Z joe-w-bimedina: is checking suppressed for the write function or would it be evident if it was?
2014-07-09T20:52:06Z stassats: pjb: and now is the time to read the second paragraph
2014-07-09T20:52:07Z pjb: That's typically a definition of non conformance.
2014-07-09T20:52:42Z pjb: The second paragraph applies to the signaling of errors, not to the rule that an odd number of arguments MUST NOT be supplied.
2014-07-09T20:53:13Z oGMo: stassats: the second paragraph doesn't actually say you can supply an odd number, it just says that specific error won't be signalled, but it's otherwise undefined, so technically another error could still be signalled
2014-07-09T20:53:39Z stassats: then if you read 3.5.1.5 the same way, :allow-other-keys has no effect whatsoever
2014-07-09T20:53:57Z stassats: i meant 1.4
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2014-07-09T20:54:27Z oGMo: :allow-other-keys can still allow other keys
2014-07-09T20:55:27Z stassats: do you people enjoy trying to come up with most useless interpretations?
2014-07-09T20:56:08Z oGMo: you're asking if #lisp people prefer pedantry
2014-07-09T20:56:11Z pjb: stassats: obviously allow other keys is made to ALLOW OTHER KEYS, not to break the keyword arguments syntax.
2014-07-09T20:57:06Z pjb: So you could write: (CL:WRITE 10 :allow-other-keys t 'my-funny-key-for-this-funny-argument 10)
2014-07-09T20:57:16Z stassats: i'll let you write an implementation where it signals errors only thursdays, because the reverse of "must" isn't "never"
2014-07-09T20:57:25Z stassats: only on thursdays, that is
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2014-07-09T20:57:36Z pjb: (remove 'stassats sharp-lisp-channel :allow-other-keys t :expeditively t)
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2014-07-09T20:58:03Z pjb: and NOT (remove 'stassats sharp-lisp-channel :allow-other-keys t 'expeditively)
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2014-07-09T21:08:13Z stassats: why on earth would it mention allow-other-keys then? if it has no meaning on odd arguments
2014-07-09T21:08:27Z stassats: most pedantic people with the least pedantic standard
2014-07-09T21:09:29Z pjb: The standard had to be less strict than desirable, because they had to shoehorn several existing lisps into it.
2014-07-09T21:09:56Z stassats: no, they were just sloppy and didn't expect #lisp to happen
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2014-07-09T21:10:31Z pjb: If you don't check arguments, of course it may be possible that you can pass an odd number of them.  But it makes no sense at the human level, it is not intented, and it may break some if not most implementations, and anyways in unsafe code, you will get nasal daemons.
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2014-07-09T21:11:36Z pjb: But the point of the Common Lisp standard is not what happens to half-work in a specific implementation.  It's about writing programs that will work the same in all implementations.  If you want that, you DO NOT pass an odd number of key arguments.
2014-07-09T21:13:38Z stassats: much good did that do to the pathnames
2014-07-09T21:14:35Z prxq: heh
2014-07-09T21:14:41Z pjb: Don't try to access non lisp files. :-)
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2014-07-09T21:16:05Z jasom: pjb: they didn't have to be less strict here, because the part about errors being thrown applies only to safe calls\
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2014-07-09T21:16:26Z pjb: Don't use unsafe calls.
2014-07-09T21:16:32Z stassats: you just can't write clever programs, everything has to be based on the supposed common sense of the implementors
2014-07-09T21:16:43Z pjb: Don't let libraries be compiled unsafely either!  It will bite you hard!
2014-07-09T21:17:57Z stassats: the section on &key actually says that they have to be pairs and symbols, but this mention of allow-other-keys in the argument checking breaks all the logic
2014-07-09T21:18:08Z pjb: Notice in the above section, on the verbiage implies that checking is done later or not at all.  Libraries that are compiled unsafely are as bad as FFI: instead of checking your data at the interface, they will fail with mysterious causes and effects.
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2014-07-09T21:18:21Z pjb: (and I'm pointing at cl-ppcre for example, bitch!)
2014-07-09T21:18:32Z oleo: lol
2014-07-09T21:19:42Z stassats: side note: don't ever try to implement CL
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2014-07-09T21:24:20Z stassats: and a corollary: when writing a standard, try actually implementing it, instead of just describing something existing
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2014-07-09T21:34:58Z jasom: stassats: too late
2014-07-09T21:35:31Z stassats: somebody surely will write a standard for something some times
2014-07-09T21:35:43Z stassats: although it doesn't seem like standard is what people care about nowadays
2014-07-09T21:35:48Z jasom: pjb: so in safe code, what do you think the standard requires for invalid keyword arguments when keyword argument checking is suppressed?
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2014-07-09T21:37:53Z jasom: stassats: the lisp specification is imo quite high-quality for the very first formal standard (granted CLtL 1 and 2 predate it).  There should be corrections or clarifications for some parts though; C99 had to do like 3 just to get type-punning in unions clarified
2014-07-09T21:39:13Z stassats: cltl2 isn't really a predeccessor, just a snapshot
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2014-07-09T21:43:08Z stassats: and changing things is hard, easier just to get them right the first time
2014-07-09T21:43:44Z jasom: stassats: correcting things that are so stupid or unclear that implementations ignore them or do them inconsistently isn't that hard
2014-07-09T21:44:01Z jasom: stassats: in that case you can only make things better by changing them.
2014-07-09T21:44:28Z pjb: jasom: that's the point, the standard doesn't require anything in that case. It's up to implementers' common sense to signal an error, and up to programmers' common sense not to abuse this situation to pass an odd number of arguments.
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2014-07-09T21:44:57Z jasom: pjb: I find explicitly undefined behavior in safe calls to be a poor choice
2014-07-09T21:45:24Z pjb: There's a lot of it in CL.  Perhaps less than in other language, but too much IMO.
2014-07-09T21:46:50Z jasom: And I find it odd that they went out of their way to not make signaling a program-error in that case standard.
2014-07-09T21:47:07Z jasom: or not signaling an error and proceeding for that matter
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2014-07-09T22:38:25Z jasom is trying to figure out if cl:throw is completely implementable by javascript throw (assuming dynamic bindings and unwind-protect use a javascript try block for cleanup)
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2014-07-09T22:39:15Z jasom: go and return-from are already implementable in terms of throw, so that would give me all the basic non-local exit forms.
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2014-07-09T22:45:14Z joe-w-bimedina: is there a term used for functions that call generic functions
2014-07-09T22:45:29Z Bicyclidine: no. why would there be?
2014-07-09T22:47:55Z joe-w-bimedina: just was trying to figure out what to call a .lisp file that had only those in it. Is generic-dispatch-functions a bad name?
2014-07-09T22:48:51Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: do you mean the functions consist of just a single call to a generic function?  I'd call that "pointless"
2014-07-09T22:50:06Z inklesspen: joe-w is attempting to create a common lisp wrapper for OpenCV
2014-07-09T22:50:19Z joe-w-bimedina: oh never mind I just found the right way to do it
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2014-07-09T23:17:10Z PuercoPop: joe-w-bimedina: how about interface?
2014-07-09T23:17:49Z joe-w-bimedina: pls clarify
2014-07-09T23:19:23Z inklesspen: as the name for the file, i think
2014-07-09T23:20:28Z joe-w-bimedina: I have high level functions everywhere, but thank you for  the idea
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2014-07-09T23:22:47Z joe-w-bimedina: so far just put all my defmethods, defgenerics and the ones that dispatch on the generics in a file called methods.lisp that depends on everything
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2014-07-09T23:27:55Z jasom: Anyone have a list of editors that can do the following: indent sexpr, show matching parens.  That's kind of my minimum "Doesn't totally suck for editing lisp" feature set.  Unfortunately every editor other than vim or emacs I've tried so far can't indent sexprs
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2014-07-09T23:29:55Z inklesspen: jasom: well, uh, emacs
2014-07-09T23:30:04Z inklesspen: what else do you need? :P
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2014-07-09T23:36:13Z jasom: inklesspen: something that doesn't send 20% of the people I mention it to running for the hills (which includes both vim and emacs)
2014-07-09T23:36:25Z inklesspen: get better people
2014-07-09T23:36:26Z inklesspen: :P
2014-07-09T23:37:01Z Bicyclidine: it's pretty annoying to ask a serious question on an irc channel and get deliberately ridiculous replies, inklesspen
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2014-07-09T23:37:08Z inklesspen: true
2014-07-09T23:37:38Z jasom: I have 4 kids; I'm immunte to deliberately ridiculous replies.
2014-07-09T23:37:44Z jasom: s/immunte/immune
2014-07-09T23:37:58Z inklesspen: you're not going to find many editors with slime-like features
2014-07-09T23:38:05Z inklesspen: and only a few more with proper sexp indentation
2014-07-09T23:38:09Z pjb: Come to #lisp, have 200 kids.
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2014-07-09T23:38:14Z inklesspen: that's what comes of a small Lisp community
2014-07-09T23:38:14Z jasom: inklesspen: not asking for that.  Just proper sexp indentation
2014-07-09T23:42:49Z jasom: I'm surprised by how few do proper sexp indentation, since it's roughly isomorphic to proper {sg,ht,x}ml indentation
2014-07-09T23:42:58Z jasom: but most editors don't do that either.
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2014-07-09T23:45:09Z joe-w-bimedina: any thoughts about shadowing "read" in a package,  is it a major no no or doable
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2014-07-09T23:45:36Z pjb: There's absolutely no problem in shadowing any symbol you want in your packages.
2014-07-09T23:46:16Z pjb: You can set up your packages to contain any symbol you want, and only those.
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2014-07-09T23:46:25Z pjb: That's what they're for.
2014-07-09T23:46:40Z joe-w-bimedina: i thought since it was the "R" in REPL there would be issue, so thanks for the good news
2014-07-09T23:47:01Z pjb: The code of the REPL has been READ a long time ago. You don't have to worry about it.
2014-07-09T23:48:07Z joe-w-bimedina: I think shadowing broke my defcfuns so i will definitely have to resupply it correctly
2014-07-09T23:48:52Z pjb: you can always qualify a symbol to read it from a package in which it's not available.
2014-07-09T23:50:15Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm bringing it back in with cl:read and resupplying it in a small cond statement..
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2014-07-09T23:52:14Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: are you really concerned that users of your package will want to call read and write?
2014-07-09T23:52:56Z pjb: This is yet another question.
2014-07-09T23:53:11Z joe-w-bimedina: I call it so I need to make it available as "read"
2014-07-09T23:53:18Z pjb: Users of package USE the package, ie. get access to the symbols that are EXPORTED from that package..
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2014-07-09T23:54:28Z joe-w-bimedina: I like using in-package to go into my package and do all my work inside of it,  so far I use   (:use #:cffi #:common-lisp #:swank #:trivial-garbage #:lisp-executable)
2014-07-09T23:54:51Z pjb: Sure. But you're not a USER of your package, you're the IMPLEMENTER.
2014-07-09T23:54:56Z joe-w-bimedina: I export all my functions for others that don't like that
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2014-07-09T23:55:21Z pjb: You can define a package YOUR-PACKAGE-USER that (:use "YOUR-PACKAGE") for user to go IN-PACKAGE to.
2014-07-09T23:56:48Z jasom: you can even export symbols like my-package-read and my-package-write and provide a macro that will shadowing import those as read and write for convienience
2014-07-09T23:57:18Z pjb: Nope. Shadowing import doesn't rename symbols.
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2014-07-09T23:58:31Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm making it  vast kind of, you can use my read method of the method file-storage-read for example, you can call (scalar) to create a scalar object or call (make-scalar), you can stay in package or you can export from it.  so is jasom's still possible in any way?
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2014-07-10T00:00:40Z jasom: pjb: To clarify.  Leave things as is, but with read/write unexported.  add my-package-read my-package-write as exported stubs that call the internal read/write
2014-07-10T00:00:49Z jasom: pjb: then you can shadowing-import the internal read/write
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2014-07-10T00:00:55Z pjb: ok.
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2014-07-10T00:02:51Z joe-w-bimedina: so if i do that I don't have to reimport cl:read and then add it to a conditional in my own "read" function
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2014-07-10T00:03:54Z joe-w-bimedina: I would just have to be able to type "read" in my package to use cl:read and my read methods
2014-07-10T00:05:13Z jasom: If cl:read and your read do 2 different things, I would suggest that calls to them should also look different
2014-07-10T00:06:27Z joe-w-bimedina: i like that about C++,  using the << and >> operators for everything,  I thought I would so that for read,
2014-07-10T00:08:16Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: well feel free to do that then.
2014-07-10T00:08:20Z joe-w-bimedina: I still supply file-storage-read for instance, so people don't have to use my "read"
2014-07-10T00:08:31Z jasom: I'm still not sure why I'm left-shifting cout by endl
2014-07-10T00:09:31Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks  for the advice
2014-07-10T00:09:39Z jasom: And using + for string concatenation means addition is no longer commutative.  But I digress...
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2014-07-10T00:11:03Z jasom: { int cout, endl; ... cout << endl; } <-- that left-shifts cout by endl.  namespace std { cout << endl; } <-- that outputs endl to stdout.  This is something I hate about C++
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2014-07-10T00:13:51Z joe-w-bimedina: just trying to bring in the things I like, but I'm going to do so muck lispy stuff it should even out,  I'm open to bug reports so if my idea breaks code I'll figure out another way
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2014-07-10T00:14:32Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: the wonderful thing about packages is that it's hard to break others' code by doing stuff in your package
2014-07-10T00:15:05Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: identifiers are symbols not strings
2014-07-10T00:15:36Z joe-w-bimedina: yea if they bring in things like with cv:read for instance,  its a nice design,  pls clarify last post
2014-07-10T00:16:46Z jasom: If someone tries to use both cv and cl, it will signal an error since cv:read conflicts with cl:read.  They can then choose which to use.
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2014-07-10T00:17:25Z jasom: Therefore no working code will break by using cv unless the user of cv specifically decided that they wanted cv:read, in which case they can expect that read will not work exactly like cl:read.
2014-07-10T00:18:45Z jasom: Any code that doesn't use cv won't even need to know that cv:read exists; this includes macros, since e.g. (defmacro stupid (x) `(read x)) will use which ever read is accessible in the package in which stupid was defined.
2014-07-10T00:19:05Z joe-w-bimedina: yea if I could  do all this at the package level that would be cool, instead of shadowing and bringing back in with cl:read and making a cond statement, because  it is slower a bit
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2014-07-10T00:20:19Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: probably not slower by any measurable amount.  Somewhere there has to be logic that performs the dispatch.
2014-07-10T00:20:49Z jasom: A non-generic function with a short etypecase is faster than method dispatch on sbcl.
2014-07-10T00:23:02Z joe-w-bimedina: so is this the best way or is there  a way with defpackage to do the same thing? => shadowing and bringing back in with cl:read and making a cond statement
2014-07-10T00:23:10Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: and the number of times I have called read (outside of a reader macro) or write I can probably count on my hands.
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2014-07-10T00:23:51Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: if you want to have cl:read, plus some other stuff all in one function with the same name, then you are doing it the best way.
2014-07-10T00:25:04Z joe-w-bimedina: yea didn't understand that shadowing-import talk,  thought it was a way to do what i'm doing but safer,  but thanks for confirmation
2014-07-10T00:25:47Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: what you are doing is safe; the question is how (if at all) you expose cv:read to users of your package.
2014-07-10T00:26:04Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: that's what all the shadowing-import talk was about.
2014-07-10T00:26:57Z joe-w-bimedina: i will export so good to know i'm on a good road
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2014-07-10T00:30:59Z jasom: Is this well defined?  (setf (symbol-value 'foo) 3) (locally (declare (dynamic foo)) foo)
2014-07-10T00:31:42Z jasom: foo is not a dynamic variable when the value-cell is set, so it seems like an implementation could disallow?
2014-07-10T00:32:43Z jasom: s/dynamic foo/special foo/
2014-07-10T00:33:03Z Bike: i think it's fine to set the symbol-value of a symbol not known to be special.
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2014-07-10T00:38:53Z jasom: I suppose setf of symbol-value establishes a binding for the dynamic variable associated with the symbol.
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2014-07-10T00:42:29Z jasom: and there's no way to lexically bind a value that is proclaimed special, right?
2014-07-10T00:43:20Z Bike: i don't think so.
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2014-07-10T00:44:48Z joe-w-bimedina: does shadowing a symbol in a package automatically re-import it as a symbol of the package you shadowed it from
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2014-07-10T00:47:04Z jasom: huh?
2014-07-10T00:47:35Z jasom: clhs 11.1.1.2.5
2014-07-10T00:47:35Z specbot: Prevention of Name Conflicts in Packages: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_aabe.htm
2014-07-10T00:47:47Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: read that
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2014-07-10T00:59:08Z joe-w-bimedina: jasom: ended up being a typo, sorry about that,  thanks for the link though
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2014-07-10T01:12:56Z joe-w-bimedina: I have to define my read function at the top of my library so defcfuns can load, then after my defcfuns have been loaded I need to redefine it again in my COND statement that also dispatches on my "*read"(their name is *read) methods,  I get a style-warning doing this,  can I muffle it in an implementation independent way,
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2014-07-10T01:23:09Z |3b|: isn't redefining a function with a file compiled with compile-file undefined behavior?
2014-07-10T01:23:17Z |3b|: *within a file
2014-07-10T01:23:53Z joe-w-bimedina: in SBCL I get a style warning
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2014-07-10T01:24:58Z |3b| 's point is that if it is undefined behavior, a style warning is a reasonable response, and you are lucky it didn't just compile things incorrectly
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2014-07-10T01:27:22Z joe-w-bimedina: can i muffle it in any way implementation independent,  I have good cause for writing it this was and I just would like to muffle this one only.  the links I found on this sort of thing were just for sbcl
2014-07-10T01:28:06Z |3b|: if it is undefined behavior, you by definition don't have 'good cause'
2014-07-10T01:29:13Z joe-w-bimedina: good point ,  so it is leave it as a warning to the next guy, kinda thing I assume
2014-07-10T01:29:25Z |3b|: no, it is a "don't do that" kind of thing
2014-07-10T01:30:26Z joe-w-bimedina: I have to defineit, at the beginning of me code and redefine it at the end, is there another way ?
2014-07-10T01:30:44Z Zhivago: Using a with- macro?
2014-07-10T01:30:58Z |3b|: figure out that you don't actually need to redefine it?
2014-07-10T01:31:05Z |3b|: define it in multiple files?
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2014-07-10T01:31:33Z joe-w-bimedina: how do I add my cond statement to it if I don't redefine?
2014-07-10T01:31:54Z |3b|: though if you are calling it from either of the files it is defined in (which sounds like you are if you think you need to redefine it), you can't redefine it in another file either
2014-07-10T01:32:20Z |3b|: why do you need to?
2014-07-10T01:32:31Z |3b|: you don't need to define a function before compiling a call to that function
2014-07-10T01:33:21Z Zhivago: In other words, defun isn't lexically scoped.
2014-07-10T01:33:48Z |3b|: and if you do have a bunch of things that need to call a simpler version of the function, make a separate function for them to call
2014-07-10T01:34:08Z |3b|: particularly if the simpler function already exists, which i suspect cl:read is in this case
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2014-07-10T01:39:32Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks, still testing some stuff
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2014-07-10T03:14:18Z drmeister: I'm looking at the CL-SERIALIZER source code: http://dwim.hu/project/hu.dwim.serializer?_x=NqMA&_f=ATrfXRey      It says it's Common Lisp but it doesn't look right at all with things like (def constant +nil-code+ #x00) [white-space between DEF and CONSTANT.  And further down things like (def (function io) identity-map ...
2014-07-10T03:14:21Z drmeister is puzzled.
2014-07-10T03:14:40Z Denommus: Is there a FRP library for lisp?
2014-07-10T03:14:42Z Bike: hu.dwim have a bunch of their own stuff, yeah
2014-07-10T03:14:54Z Bike: def is a macro they define somewhere or another
2014-07-10T03:16:27Z drmeister: Is there value to doing something like that?
2014-07-10T03:16:57Z Bike: i'm sure they think so
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2014-07-10T03:19:00Z drmeister: Does anyone recommend a good serializer?   I thought I had one but mine is broken and I'm looking for insight.  CL-SERIALIZER looked good but I've got enough non-canonical behavior in my life.
2014-07-10T03:19:47Z Bike: oh it's not that it's undefined behavior, they just have a lot of other (probably standard conforming) scaffold libraries they use
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2014-07-10T03:21:58Z drmeister: I'm sure they know what they are doing - I meant I didn't want to rewire my brain to read their syntax.
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2014-07-10T03:34:41Z joe-w-bimedina: can someone tell me what is wrong with mt "TRACE"  function, it is reimporting cl:trace after I shadowed it in my package and when I run (trace exp) I get "exp is unbound" and when I run (trace 1)  I get (first args) is not a valid function name.  I ran (trace 1) because I put in cl:exp as the other condition to simplify for this post. How do I pass (first args) to cl:trace effectively.  the same thing happens when I call as arg instead &re
2014-07-10T03:34:41Z joe-w-bimedina: st args
2014-07-10T03:35:08Z joe-w-bimedina: here is gist https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/f3cb621617522ece6850
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2014-07-10T03:36:49Z PuercoPop: Denommus: There is the cells extension to CLOS
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2014-07-10T03:37:21Z Denommus: PuercoPop: how do I get it? Quicklisp?
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2014-07-10T03:38:52Z PuercoPop: yeah it is in quicklisp
2014-07-10T03:40:17Z PuercoPop: https://github.com/kennytilton/cells
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2014-07-10T03:42:50Z Denommus: PuercoPop: thanks, I'll check it when I'm on a computer
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2014-07-10T03:59:18Z bhyde: joe-w-bimedina: it looks like your confused about what trace does
2014-07-10T03:59:44Z bhyde: trace marks a function so that it will emit tracing when it is invoked later
2014-07-10T03:59:47Z joe-w-bimedina: I know what it does but not how to call it, obviously:)
2014-07-10T04:00:12Z joe-w-bimedina: i'm wrestling with the same thing on cl:step
2014-07-10T04:00:18Z bhyde: trace is a macro, which expands in subtle and wonderful ways so the function will do that tracing later
2014-07-10T04:00:42Z joe-w-bimedina: I know, but how do I call it in my function there?
2014-07-10T04:01:20Z bhyde: trace is implementation specific in it's details, for example it often takes a large number of optional arguments so you can ask for the function to emit tracking only wen the moon is full and the cat is in the house
2014-07-10T04:02:18Z bhyde: since it is a macro when you write (trace fred) the function fred is going to get tracing enabled for it
2014-07-10T04:02:51Z joe-w-bimedina: would I call my trace function as a macro?
2014-07-10T04:02:56Z bhyde: there is no function named (first arg)
2014-07-10T04:03:51Z bhyde: it's not clear what your trying to achieve, at least it doesn't make sense to me yet
2014-07-10T04:05:02Z bhyde: having my-package:trace and cl:trace is kind of odd, but it's more odd that my-package:trace is a function and cl:trace is a macro ... since macros are dealt with at compile time and functions at run time
2014-07-10T04:05:15Z joe-w-bimedina: I shadowed trace  in my package and now I am reimporting it in that function I posted, so I can call my OpenCV c++ trace binding with it too
2014-07-10T04:05:46Z joe-w-bimedina: well to have the cond statement dispatch on it
2014-07-10T04:06:21Z joe-w-bimedina: How do I make this work
2014-07-10T04:06:47Z bhyde: sadly i still don't understand what problem your trying to solve :(
2014-07-10T04:07:20Z bhyde: worse, it's time for me to go to bed :)
2014-07-10T04:07:28Z bhyde: tata
2014-07-10T04:07:48Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks for your help:)
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2014-07-10T05:05:40Z hitecnologys: Are there any major differences between (round (/ x y)) and (truncate x y) except for second returned value?
2014-07-10T05:06:10Z hitecnologys: Oops, s/round/floor/
2014-07-10T05:07:01Z Zhivago: I'd check the behaviour for negative values.
2014-07-10T05:07:28Z Bike: "round and fround produce a quotient that has been rounded to the nearest mathematical integer" "truncate and ftruncate produce a quotient that has been truncated towards zero"
2014-07-10T05:07:31Z Bike: so, yes.
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2014-07-10T05:07:54Z Bike: x = 8, y = 3 for instance
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2014-07-10T05:08:25Z hitecnologys: Bike: I've mistyped. I meant FLOOR, not ROUND.
2014-07-10T05:08:39Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: nope, the result seems to be the same.
2014-07-10T05:08:43Z Bike: then yeah, like zhivago said they'll behave differently on negatives.
2014-07-10T05:08:59Z Bike: (floor -8 3) (truncate -8 3)
2014-07-10T05:09:38Z hitecnologys: Aha, now I see.
2014-07-10T05:10:16Z hitecnologys: Thanks for help.
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2014-07-10T06:17:09Z joe-w-bimedina: For starters you will need to know I shadowed cl:trace in my package...... What am I doing wrong in this macro https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/d80cf698dba79054436d  the top condition works right but when I try to use the bottom condition, eg don't enter something of cv-mat type, running like (trace exp), the cl:trace part gets an error "The variable EXP is unbound."
2014-07-10T06:18:33Z Quadrescence: joe-w-bimedina, TRACE is not a function in Lisp
2014-07-10T06:18:41Z Quadrescence: it is a macro which doesn't evaluate its argument
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2014-07-10T06:20:56Z joe-w-bimedina: I did write a successful macro for cl:trace but not the conditional...so i know a macro is possible,  can you help me write this one or a function to do the same thing
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2014-07-10T06:24:21Z Enfors: Good morning!
2014-07-10T06:24:39Z joe-w-bimedina: good morning
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2014-07-10T06:29:26Z Quadrescence: joe-w-bimedina, you cannot
2014-07-10T06:29:40Z Quadrescence: joe-w-bimedina, you seem to want to evaluate your argument in order to determine its type
2014-07-10T06:30:35Z joe-w-bimedina: is it just that I can't put cl:trace in a macro?
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2014-07-10T06:32:11Z joe-w-bimedina: just asking because I did write a successful macro for it, just not with the cond statement
2014-07-10T06:32:23Z Quadrescence: joe-w-bimedina, what is your successful macro?
2014-07-10T06:32:36Z Quadrescence: because i do not believe you wrote a successful macro
2014-07-10T06:33:02Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec
2014-07-10T06:33:52Z PuercoPop: why not just use a prefix and sidestep the problem of clashing with symbols in cl and get own with it?
2014-07-10T06:35:41Z joe-w-bimedina: ok here is the macro that worked i am just trying to expand on it https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/9a601905247f351011ac ....I just like to have things a certain way, I have a design in mind
2014-07-10T06:36:08Z Quadrescence: joe-w-bimedina, that macro doesn't include your macro
2014-07-10T06:36:21Z Quadrescence: re-read what I said: the argument to CL:TRACE does not get evaluated
2014-07-10T06:36:45Z Quadrescence: The CL:TRACE macro will have as argument precisely what you provide to your macro
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2014-07-10T06:36:58Z Quadrescence: That is the case in both instances
2014-07-10T06:38:17Z joe-w-bimedina: the macro comes up at the link I posted for me does it not for you? since the macro at the link works why can I not add a cond on top of it
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2014-07-10T06:39:35Z Quadrescence: joe-w-bimedina, are you reading what I am saying?
2014-07-10T06:40:51Z joe-w-bimedina: I guess I need clarification,  what I get is I can't put a cond on top of the working macro
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2014-07-10T06:41:12Z Quadrescence: you can put a cond on top of it
2014-07-10T06:41:25Z Quadrescence: but you seem to not understand what gets evaluated when
2014-07-10T06:41:37Z joe-w-bimedina: can you show me how, I cant get it to run
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2014-07-10T06:41:51Z Quadrescence: no because you cannot write the macro you wish to write
2014-07-10T06:42:49Z joe-w-bimedina: I don't understand why but , i don't want to take up any more of you time, id appreciate your effort though
2014-07-10T06:42:55Z joe-w-bimedina: i d appreciate
2014-07-10T06:43:03Z joe-w-bimedina: ***i do appreciate
2014-07-10T06:44:46Z Quadrescence: joe-w-bimedina, If CL:TRACE was a function, you could
2014-07-10T06:45:47Z joe-w-bimedina: so how does putting a cond statement over it stop that and could i do it in a defun
2014-07-10T06:46:21Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: what are you trying to do?
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2014-07-10T06:46:57Z joe-w-bimedina: I shadowed trace in my library and Ia m trying to bring it back in in my own trace function
2014-07-10T06:47:12Z jasom: What did you shadow it with?
2014-07-10T06:47:40Z jasom: (i.e. a function or a macro?)
2014-07-10T06:48:10Z jasom: oh, I looked at the gist; that will never work
2014-07-10T06:48:15Z joe-w-bimedina: in my defpackage I put (:shadow #:trace)
2014-07-10T06:48:45Z jasom: you might be able to e.g. check if the argument is fbound and call cl:trace if it is; that won't let you call %trace on any variable with the same name as a function though
2014-07-10T06:49:32Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: the thing that you are doing non-default trace stuff with: is it a function? a macro?  How do you want to discriminate whether to call your version or cl:trace?
2014-07-10T06:50:14Z jasom: also consider this: (defun foo () ...) (let ((foo (make-cv-mat))) (trace foo)) <-- which trace do you want to call?
2014-07-10T06:50:30Z Quadrescence: jasom, he is using TYPEP to discriminate, that should tell you all you need to know
2014-07-10T06:50:36Z joe-w-bimedina: by a typep that evaluates to T if it is my cv-mat type,  my trace function %trace finds the trace of a matrix
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2014-07-10T06:51:00Z Quadrescence: joe-w-bimedina, use the standard mathematical syntax "tr"
2014-07-10T06:51:18Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: typep will almost certainly be either cons or symbol
2014-07-10T06:51:36Z joe-w-bimedina: I do want to make this happen but if no other way tr would be good
2014-07-10T06:51:38Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: since macroexpand happens before evaluation.
2014-07-10T06:51:51Z Quadrescence: joe-w-bimedina, you cannot make it happen
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2014-07-10T06:52:42Z hitecnologys: Updated files? See notes? My glob. I thought people already told you several times that it was horrible start for commit message, joe-w-bimedina.
2014-07-10T06:52:45Z jasom: Quadrescence: he could check if it's fbound and call cl:trace I suppose
2014-07-10T06:53:06Z Quadrescence: jasom, what should (trace f) do?
2014-07-10T06:53:13Z joe-w-bimedina: can you show me how to do that?
2014-07-10T06:53:18Z Quadrescence: you need a code walker/access to the lexical environment/bla bla bla
2014-07-10T06:53:27Z Quadrescence: it would be incorrect and buggy to just do an FBOUND check
2014-07-10T06:53:28Z jasom: Quadrescence: just fboundp
2014-07-10T06:53:43Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: you probably don't want to do that unless you can answer my earlier question
2014-07-10T06:53:53Z joe-w-bimedina: what ?
2014-07-10T06:53:56Z jasom: 23:48 < jasom> also consider this: (defun foo () ...) (let ((foo (make-cv-mat))) (trace foo)) <-- which trace do you want to call?
2014-07-10T06:53:59Z Quadrescence: (defun f ()) (let ((f matrix)) (trace f))  ; this won't do what is expected with FBOUND
2014-07-10T06:54:07Z Quadrescence: yeah
2014-07-10T06:54:56Z joe-w-bimedina: I would like to call both trace's mine and cl:trace if (not (typep val 'cv-mat))
2014-07-10T06:55:13Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: you still didn't answer my question.
2014-07-10T06:55:32Z joe-w-bimedina: which trace do you want to call?....both ...if..
2014-07-10T06:55:36Z jasom: what if foo is both a function and a cv-mat?
2014-07-10T06:55:38Z Quadrescence: joe-w-bimedina, this is just ugly and bad design, just write TR
2014-07-10T06:55:52Z Quadrescence: joe-w-bimedina, TR is a function anyway. Defining it as a macro is dumb.
2014-07-10T06:56:04Z joe-w-bimedina: a cv-mat is a cv-mat object
2014-07-10T06:56:11Z jasom: (ignoring for the moment that you can't discriminate at macroexpand time, and if trace is a macro you won't be able to do things like apply or map
2014-07-10T06:56:22Z joe-w-bimedina: that would suck
2014-07-10T06:57:11Z joe-w-bimedina: can it be done in a defun?
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2014-07-10T06:57:25Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: also, don't teach people bad things: extracting stuff to quisklistp dist's software folder isn't a way to make systems visible for ASDF. One should rather put system somewhere else (MyProjects,Lisp,etc.) and then add this folder to ASDF path registry by pushing it to asdf:*central-registry* (deprecated) or configuring where ASDF looks for systems via .config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d.
2014-07-10T06:57:34Z jasom: functions and variables are in different namespaces, so you can have a function and a variable with the same name.  I'm not sure why you have such an obsession with reusing names (especially when you can just use cl:trace if you want to trace a function)
2014-07-10T06:57:52Z Quadrescence: joe-w-bimedina, I will say one last time: You cannot do what you want to do.
2014-07-10T06:58:08Z joe-w-bimedina: i accept that
2014-07-10T06:58:16Z Quadrescence: Okay, next question?
2014-07-10T06:58:30Z jasom: everything you are doing violates the whole spirit of packages anyway.
2014-07-10T06:58:55Z joe-w-bimedina: i'm cool,  thank you for the help:)
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2014-07-10T06:59:14Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: (ql:quickload "asdf")? Seriously?
2014-07-10T06:59:31Z joe-w-bimedina: what would that do for me?
2014-07-10T07:00:06Z hitecnologys: That's in your README for LISP-CV.
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2014-07-10T07:00:24Z joe-w-bimedina: i'm going to a whole install file made, this is just while it is in process
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2014-07-10T07:00:38Z hitecnologys: Quicklisping ASDF is nonsense.
2014-07-10T07:00:55Z Quadrescence: joe-w-bimedina, Quicklisp requires ASDF. If Quicklisp is loaded, then ASDF must have already been loaded.
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2014-07-10T07:02:04Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: it's not just that. You literally *can't* use QL without ASDF. Even to load ASDF itself.
2014-07-10T07:02:13Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm devoting my time to getting this good enough to get in OpenCV, the code that is, then it will get built with opencv and installed, I'm going to have my tutor help me with that
2014-07-10T07:02:43Z Quadrescence: hitecnologys, That's what I said/implied?
2014-07-10T07:03:07Z Quadrescence: What part of "ASDF is a dependency of Quicklisp" doesn't subsume what you said?
2014-07-10T07:03:34Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: yes. I'm just a bit frustrated by contents of his README.
2014-07-10T07:03:59Z jasom: also quicklisp has a directory "local-projects" which is intended for projects not in quicklisp, so if you are going to install it to the quicklisp directory, that's a much better place
2014-07-10T07:04:20Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks again for your guy's guidance though, having direction is awesome
2014-07-10T07:04:45Z Quadrescence: hitecnologys, Maybe you can channel your frustration in a pull request?
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2014-07-10T07:06:13Z joe-w-bimedina: quick ?, so doing the same thing with cl:step, would that be a no no
2014-07-10T07:06:22Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: I don't feel like contributing today. Maybe some time later. Better complain about it.
2014-07-10T07:06:39Z jasom is trying to remember who wrote the parable about lisp macros with some guy typing out repetitive code for the developers and eventually automating it
2014-07-10T07:06:51Z joe-w-bimedina: pcl
2014-07-10T07:07:11Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm reading that and lol now
2014-07-10T07:07:12Z Bike: yeah, the story of mac.
2014-07-10T07:07:27Z jasom: ah
2014-07-10T07:07:30Z hitecnologys: jasom: it might be the author of PCL but I suspect he could have taken it from somewhere else.
2014-07-10T07:07:45Z hitecnologys: jasom: there's a possibility at least.
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2014-07-10T07:07:57Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: I was going to point you at that to get why you can't get the type of the argument to trace at macroexpand time
2014-07-10T07:08:16Z jasom: s/get why/get you to understand why/
2014-07-10T07:08:18Z joe-w-bimedina: you meanto %trace
2014-07-10T07:08:37Z joe-w-bimedina: you mean %trace?
2014-07-10T07:08:53Z joe-w-bimedina: I just read it
2014-07-10T07:09:21Z joe-w-bimedina: so i shouldn't even try with cl:step though right?
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2014-07-10T07:09:31Z joe-w-bimedina: it would be same thing
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2014-07-10T07:20:17Z PuercoPop: btw is there a reason why you aren't using the other wrapper to OpenCV?
2014-07-10T07:20:41Z joe-w-bimedina: it wraps the deprecated C interface
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2014-07-10T07:50:52Z joe-w-bimedina: I noticed a flaw in th CLHS or maybe SBCL, the top example at this link is broken http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_get.htm
2014-07-10T07:51:07Z joe-w-bimedina: the top s-expr
2014-07-10T07:51:46Z joe-w-bimedina: oops my mistake
2014-07-10T07:51:49Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry
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2014-07-10T07:52:02Z hitecnologys: Doesn't seem to be broken.
2014-07-10T07:52:28Z joe-w-bimedina: my mistake, I'm sorry:)
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2014-07-10T08:06:57Z Enfors: Does 'case' work with strings?
2014-07-10T08:07:05Z stassats: no
2014-07-10T08:07:18Z Enfors: Well, that explains it, then. Thanks.
2014-07-10T08:08:07Z Enfors: Case is a bastard. I don't like it.
2014-07-10T08:08:18Z Enfors: Because now I have to do something else. =)
2014-07-10T08:08:49Z joe-w-bimedina: that thing I was talking about earlier about the trace macro, does that apply to cl accessors as well?
2014-07-10T08:10:15Z Quadrescence: Enfors, Alexandria has SWITCH which you can use with strings
2014-07-10T08:10:26Z hitecnologys: Enfors: there's SWITCH in alexandria, if you're very lazy.
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2014-07-10T08:11:02Z Quadrescence: s/lazy/wish to make use of work that someone else has already done efficiently and correctly/
2014-07-10T08:11:45Z Enfors: Thanks - I have no idea what Alexandria is, other than an anchient city. Instead, I'm using (or (and (eq foo bar) (print "1")) (and (eq foo baz) (print "2)) (print "default"))
2014-07-10T08:11:56Z stassats: i doubt alexandria:switch is efficient
2014-07-10T08:12:17Z stassats: Enfors: eq doesn't do a good job on strings
2014-07-10T08:12:29Z Enfors: eql? string=?
2014-07-10T08:12:47Z stassats: eql will call eq
2014-07-10T08:12:53Z stassats: clhs equal
2014-07-10T08:12:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equal.htm
2014-07-10T08:13:20Z stassats: string= is different
2014-07-10T08:13:21Z Enfors: Thanks.
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2014-07-10T08:14:21Z stassats: and your thing should really be (cond ((equal foo bar) "1") ((equal foo baz) "2") (t "default"))
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2014-07-10T08:14:53Z Enfors: But I was so proud of my (or (and construct :-) But OK, I'll try that, thanks.
2014-07-10T08:15:15Z stassats: suppose you want to return NIL instead of "1"?
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2014-07-10T08:15:33Z stassats: or you wanted to call (format t "~a~%" 1")
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2014-07-10T08:15:57Z Enfors: Well, in this case, I don't. I'm returning what a user has chosen from a menu.
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2014-07-10T08:23:45Z moore33: Alexandria contains a bunch of functions and macros that look vaguely familiar ;)
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2014-07-10T08:24:26Z moore33: In the sense that anyone who has done much Lisp programming has already written versions of most of them.
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2014-07-10T08:30:37Z Enfors: So what you're saying is, Alexandria is a bunch of helper function / macros / somesuch?
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2014-07-10T08:31:05Z moore33: Enfors: Yes, lots of common, useful idioms.
2014-07-10T08:31:13Z Enfors: I see. Thanks.
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2014-07-10T08:33:46Z Enfors: Hmm. I think I prefer not to use something like that. I think it's better if I learn to "cope" with vanilla lisp -first-, then we'll see. I want to know the basics first.
2014-07-10T08:35:59Z moore33: Enfors:You might find it educational to look at the source.
2014-07-10T08:36:32Z moore33: I should submit the setf* stuff from McClim.
2014-07-10T08:37:36Z Enfors: That's a good point.
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2014-07-10T08:45:40Z joe-w-bimedina: will the first arg of the function cl:open always be a string,  the doc. in CLHS just says this: filespec---a pathname designator. for the first arg but I think it means it will always be a string path
2014-07-10T08:46:09Z hitecnologys: clhs pathnames
2014-07-10T08:46:09Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for pathnames.
2014-07-10T08:46:16Z hitecnologys: clhs make-pathname
2014-07-10T08:46:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_pn.htm
2014-07-10T08:46:17Z stassats: clhs pathname
2014-07-10T08:46:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_pn.htm
2014-07-10T08:46:34Z stassats: it can be a string, a pathname or a stream
2014-07-10T08:47:00Z stassats: just don't do what you're doing
2014-07-10T08:47:04Z stassats: it's bad practice
2014-07-10T08:48:59Z joe-w-bimedina: ok so if it is pathname or a stream type-of will output something different, I got you thanks, I just remembered seeing the stream type before
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2014-07-10T08:52:09Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: why don't you have a look in the glossary? http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/26_glo_p.htm
2014-07-10T08:52:45Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: pretty much all the terms in the cl spec have a well defined meaning that is defined in the glossary.  there is no need to guess or "think" when you can look it up.
2014-07-10T08:53:46Z joe-w-bimedina: oh but I can speciaize on type pathname right?...looks like I can...im going to  try it...yeah just noticed pathname was a type, thanks, now I know to really follow those CLHS links
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2014-07-10T08:54:47Z stassats: you noticed the wrong thing, if you want to dispatch, pathname is a class
2014-07-10T08:55:17Z joe-w-bimedina: so i can add to defmethod I assume then
2014-07-10T08:56:03Z stassats: in reality, you shouldn't dispatch on that, the T method should just call open
2014-07-10T08:56:24Z joe-w-bimedina: so specialize on T?
2014-07-10T08:56:33Z stassats: specialize on nothing
2014-07-10T08:56:50Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks will try
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2014-07-10T08:59:52Z stassats: (that happen to be the same thing, but no need to explicitly specialize on T)
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2014-07-10T09:00:34Z joe-w-bimedina: it worked like a charm
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2014-07-10T09:40:25Z joe-w-bimedina: any clues how I might get started, after shadowing "string class" in my package, to bring it back into my package. I know I could call cl:string in my specializers. But it would be better to still use the word "string",  everything else I brought back in with cond statements or methods and by using the cl: prefix
2014-07-10T09:41:02Z joe-w-bimedina: is there something like a type def in lisp where in a cond i can call typedef cl:string = string
2014-07-10T09:41:33Z Cymew:  Enfors: Going back to CASE. Doesn't COND look a lot like CASE to you? I have a similar attitude like you towards Alexandria, so I'm curious how you decided to use CASE and not CND.
2014-07-10T09:42:56Z Cymew: I usually use COND when I in other languages might have grasped for case/switch thingies, and I'm not sure why I do it like that. Would be interesting to compare.
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2014-07-10T09:44:35Z Enfors: Cymew: I ended up using COND.
2014-07-10T09:44:53Z H4ns: Cymew: i generally follow the "use the most specific tool" rule, and by that rule, i rarely use COND.  i find COND to be much harder to read than case for simple cases because of the repeated comparisons.
2014-07-10T09:44:55Z Enfors: Cymew: And yes, COND does look a lot like CASE to me too.
2014-07-10T09:45:31Z Cymew: That's true I guess. COND is not a specific tool
2014-07-10T09:45:33Z H4ns: COND is not at all like case in that the conditions are evaluated, in sequence, until one of them matches.
2014-07-10T09:46:13Z hitecnologys: Cymew: I agree with H4ns. Use the most specific construction unless required otherwise.
2014-07-10T09:46:14Z Enfors: H4ns: Well, to me, being a Lisp newbie, COND does remind me of case from *other* languages.
2014-07-10T09:46:32Z Cymew: Enfors: Did you think about case statements in other languages when you first grasped for CASE?
2014-07-10T09:46:42Z Enfors: Cymew: Yes.
2014-07-10T09:47:00Z Enfors: Cymew: switch / case in C, for example.
2014-07-10T09:47:12Z Cymew: hitecnologys: I totally agree, in principle. Which makes it interesting I always think of COND as some kind of CASE on speed and use it first
2014-07-10T09:47:16Z Enfors: Or case in shell scripts.
2014-07-10T09:47:18Z H4ns: in c, the individual case labels are not evaluated either
2014-07-10T09:47:37Z H4ns: i do not see how CL:CASE is much different from c's switch/case
2014-07-10T09:47:54Z Cymew: Enfors: interesting.
2014-07-10T09:47:54Z H4ns: Cymew: COND is CASE on slow.
2014-07-10T09:48:00Z Cymew: LOL!
2014-07-10T09:48:01Z Enfors: H4ns: Yes, true. But I didn't say it was identical, but as a construct they reminded me of eachother.
2014-07-10T09:48:08Z hitecnologys: H4ns: it is different. In C, all cases are evaluated.
2014-07-10T09:48:23Z Cymew: What Enfors said
2014-07-10T09:48:39Z hitecnologys: H4ns: that's why they need breaking.
2014-07-10T09:48:46Z Enfors: H4ns: CL:CASE is indeed not that different from C's case, but it's different from shell's case in that CL:CASE doesn't handle strings.
2014-07-10T09:48:52Z Cymew: But "COND is CASE on slow" it hillarious!
2014-07-10T09:48:54Z H4ns: hitecnologys: not at all.  in c, all labels need to be compile-time constants.
2014-07-10T09:49:21Z hitecnologys: H4ns: hmm, OK. Maybe I'm confusing it with C++ then.
2014-07-10T09:49:34Z H4ns: hitecnologys: no.  c++ is the same in that respect.
2014-07-10T09:49:51Z hitecnologys: H4ns: crap, this means I totally forgot C.
2014-07-10T09:50:10Z Cymew: I guess for me I don't think much about what is evaluated. Of course the arguments to COND is evaluated. It's Lisp so everything has a value. Kinda sorta...
2014-07-10T09:50:28Z Zhivago: Except, of course, for (values).
2014-07-10T09:50:40Z Cymew: of course
2014-07-10T09:51:14Z Zhivago: But the evaluator will give it a nil so that it doesn't feel left out.
2014-07-10T09:51:26Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: arguable. Despite the fact that (values) have no values, it's still handled as NIL so one bay say it has value -- NIL.
2014-07-10T09:51:39Z hitecnologys: s/bay/may/
2014-07-10T09:51:50Z Zhivago: No. It isn't handled as nil!
2014-07-10T09:52:05Z hitecnologys: Evaluated.
2014-07-10T09:52:21Z Zhivago: It's just that the evaluator will give you a nil if you're not something that expects values.
2014-07-10T09:52:26Z Cymew: Naturally, now Enfors and I must build our own CASE macros on top of COND, specializing on strings, numbers and whatnot. Convenience macros for the win.
2014-07-10T09:52:44Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: ah, I see.
2014-07-10T09:52:50Z Cymew: Then we can all love Alexandria and be happy
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2014-07-10T09:53:16Z H4ns: you can also use find-symbol and case
2014-07-10T09:53:28Z H4ns: it is convenient, works well, looks pretty
2014-07-10T09:53:39Z Cymew: I've never before thought of why I never use CASE. this was most enlightening
2014-07-10T09:53:50Z Enfors: Cymew: My thoughts exactly. Now I'm starting to understand how useful Lisp macros are.
2014-07-10T09:54:04Z Cymew: Oh, they are great
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2014-07-10T09:54:23Z Enfors: Anyway, lunch break - bbl.
2014-07-10T09:54:47Z H4ns: the trick is not to use macros.
2014-07-10T09:55:08Z Cymew: I think I should probably learn from H4ns as well. I use macros way too often when I should have used "the most specific tool" rule. LEsson for today.
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2014-07-10T09:56:33Z Cymew: lunch sounds good btw
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2014-07-10T10:01:13Z Guthur: is there  a convenient way for me to match a symbol A::FOO to b::FOO with package b
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2014-07-10T10:01:43Z hitecnologys: clhs symbol-name
2014-07-10T10:01:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_2.htm
2014-07-10T10:03:02Z H4ns: Guthur: not sure if i understand, but (string= 'a::foo 'b::foo) => T and (find-symbol (string 'a::foo) :b)
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2014-07-10T10:04:17Z Guthur: h4ns: string= is the exact sort of convenient solution i wanted
2014-07-10T10:04:31Z Guthur: did not realise that string= on symbols ignored packages
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2014-07-10T10:04:45Z Guthur: in fact did not know you could use string equality at all
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2014-07-10T10:24:35Z H4ns: ck_: your slime history improvement is great!  thanks!
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2014-07-10T11:21:57Z moore33: If COND is equivalent to anything in C/C++, it's if () {} else if () {} else...
2014-07-10T11:23:26Z Cymew: Which kind of is like case/switch, right?
2014-07-10T11:23:57Z Zhivago: No.
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2014-07-10T11:35:15Z moore33: switch in C jumps based on comparison to constant values.
2014-07-10T11:36:28Z Cymew: "kind of" is the key there, I think. ;)
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2014-07-10T11:39:39Z dim: and there's a case operator in CL too
2014-07-10T11:39:54Z dim: and you might even use http://www.discontinuity.info/~pkhuong/string-case.lisp
2014-07-10T11:40:06Z dim: which isn't possible to hack in C at all
2014-07-10T11:44:35Z moore33: dim: That is out of control!
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2014-07-10T11:45:01Z dim: how so?
2014-07-10T11:46:02Z moore33: In the sense that compiling a string matcher at macro-expansion time is out of control.
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2014-07-10T11:47:15Z dim: I like the fact that you can do it, and that it makes sense
2014-07-10T11:48:55Z moore33: I like the fact that you can do it too, but it is still out of control :)
2014-07-10T11:49:26Z moore33: One might wonder what all the hard-coded string comparison is about anyway.
2014-07-10T11:53:19Z Shinmera: You still haven't explained what makes it "out of control"
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2014-07-10T11:54:27Z moore33: Shinmera: Well, first I should say that "out of control" is not necessarily a bad thing chez moi.
2014-07-10T11:55:27Z dim: being able to run your own code at compilation time is quite awesome I think (and at load time, and compile at run time, it's all still very much a “wow” for me)
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2014-07-10T11:56:00Z moore33: Second, code that includes its own VOPs for SBCL is by definition getting into out of control territory.
2014-07-10T11:56:06Z Zhivago: Just a pity about the side-effects.
2014-07-10T11:57:56Z moore33: Third, it's a huge amount of code to optimize something that is unlikely to be a bottleneck in all but a few cases.
2014-07-10T11:58:05Z dim: the author of that string-case.lisp thing is a contributor to SBCL IIUC, so it's not surprising that chasing perfs he's using internal things I guess
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2014-07-10T11:58:41Z Shinmera: moore33: I agree that one could say it's going a bit over board trying to do what it does, but as long as it doesn't interfere with other code I don't see why heavy optimization of a library should be a Bad Thing.
2014-07-10T11:59:40Z Zhivago: Added fragility.
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2014-07-10T12:00:16Z moore33: Fourth, pkhuong is a god, but if I wrote something like that I would be hard-pressed to prove that it wasn't buggy.
2014-07-10T12:00:23Z moore33: So, whatever floats your boat :)
2014-07-10T12:00:43Z Shinmera: Well yes, fragility is of course a problem, hence my "interfere" clause.
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2014-07-10T12:12:07Z wizzo: is there any definitive way to read from an untrusted source safely?
2014-07-10T12:12:59Z wizzo: i read about *read-eval* but then it went on to say that's not enough
2014-07-10T12:14:06Z moore33: wizzo: You need to be sure that you don't eval the results yourself.
2014-07-10T12:14:42Z Shinmera: Or print it without check for circular lists and other things.
2014-07-10T12:16:53Z wizzo: that makes sense
2014-07-10T12:17:08Z moore33: Heh, yeah, to be extra safe you would want to read it with a readtable that disabled #n= and friends.
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2014-07-10T12:17:27Z H4ns: or use a reader that you can trust.
2014-07-10T12:17:50Z H4ns: (i.e. one that is specific to your purpose rather than one that is meant to be used for lisp source code)
2014-07-10T12:18:28Z wizzo: that's what i am thinking. i guess it's only a few things to check but already too much complexity considering
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2014-07-10T12:19:42Z Xach: There is at least one safe-reader project in quicklisp
2014-07-10T12:19:57Z Shinmera: But can you trust that project? :)
2014-07-10T12:21:24Z wizzo: i can't trust anything!
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2014-07-10T12:24:07Z Enfors: Easy now, Fox Moulder =)
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2014-07-10T12:27:23Z hitecnologys: Enfors: it's Mulder.
2014-07-10T12:27:55Z Enfors: Easy now, Sheldon =)
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2014-07-10T12:32:29Z Enfors: The fact that CL isn't case sensitive annoys me, because it messes with my naming conventions. Typically, I'll call a class something like "Sword", and an object of that class "sword". Is there a de-facto standard convention people use in CL? I keep using stuff like "sword" for the class, and "s" for the object which is no good at all.
2014-07-10T12:33:05Z H4ns: Enfors: cl is case sensitive, but we prefer writing our source code in lower case with dashes between the words
2014-07-10T12:33:06Z Xach: Enfors: it is fine to call an instance of sword sword.
2014-07-10T12:33:22Z Xach: And an instance of a list, list.
2014-07-10T12:33:33Z H4ns: Enfors: (defclass sword () ()) (let ((sword (make-instance 'sword))) ...)
2014-07-10T12:33:51Z Enfors: Xach: Well, CL may be fine with it, but I'm not - Lisp is confusing enough for me without calling several different things by the same name.
2014-07-10T12:34:31Z H4ns: Enfors: you'll get used to it.  i'd recommend that you try to learn the conventions rather than trying to carry over your ways from other languages.
2014-07-10T12:34:35Z Xach: Enfors: Get over it.
2014-07-10T12:34:45Z Zhivago: You can write Sword if you like, lisp won't care. :)
2014-07-10T12:34:49Z hitecnologys: Enfors: I have similar naming conventions too (naming classes with capital letter). I think it's fine.
2014-07-10T12:34:57Z moore33: You can change *readtable-case* and confuse everybody reading your code, except for Franz employees.
2014-07-10T12:34:58Z Enfors: H4ns: Yes, I plan to, but it's strange to me.
2014-07-10T12:35:22Z hitecnologys: moore33: Franz?
2014-07-10T12:35:52Z H4ns: Enfors: every new language is strange in the beginning.
2014-07-10T12:36:25Z moore33: hitecnologys:http://franz.com/support/documentation/8.2/doc/case.htm
2014-07-10T12:36:33Z Enfors: H4ns: Granted, but having different things by convention having the same names is a special kind of strange.
2014-07-10T12:36:52Z hitecnologys: moore33: I see.
2014-07-10T12:36:52Z Enfors: H4ns: I can't see why it would be a good thing.
2014-07-10T12:36:57Z H4ns: Enfors: to quote Xach: "Get over it"
2014-07-10T12:37:12Z Shinmera: because if you have an object that is a list why not call it list if that's all it is
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2014-07-10T12:38:26Z Enfors: H4ns: I plan to, of course. But I'm not going to refrain from pointing out things that I find strange about things I learn - it might turn out that people correct me because I got it wrong, and that it wasn't strange at all. But in this case, it appears that it *is* strange, and I wasn't wrong.
2014-07-10T12:38:53Z moore33: Enfors: You can't confuse the parser because... there isn't one! (defclass sword () ()) (let ((sword (make-instance 'sword))) ...) isn't ambiguous.
2014-07-10T12:38:53Z H4ns: Enfors: strange.
2014-07-10T12:39:27Z Enfors: moore33: I'm not worried about confusing the parser, I'm worried about confusing myself.
2014-07-10T12:39:49Z Shinmera: Enfors: Personally I find the idea that a system will force me to use dumb names because the one I want is already taken for something else strange
2014-07-10T12:39:55Z moore33: Enfors: In other words, you don't mix type names and variable names in C-like languages because it confuses the parser, so programmers train themselves not to do that.
2014-07-10T12:39:59Z Xach: Enfors: That is unlikely, with practice.
2014-07-10T12:40:00Z H4ns: Enfors: the classic example of your kind of thinking is "#define BEGIN {"
2014-07-10T12:40:02Z H4ns: :)
2014-07-10T12:40:10Z Xach: Without practice, everything will confuse you.
2014-07-10T12:40:16Z ggole: Having the same name isn't bad, it just reinforces the natural connection between the class and the variable
2014-07-10T12:40:36Z moore33: Also, an advantage of our Lisp-2...
2014-07-10T12:40:40Z Enfors: Xach: Well, that's comforting. Like you said, I'll get over it. But I'd have preferred it wasn't like this.
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2014-07-10T12:41:05Z Enfors: ggole: Hmm, you might have a good point there...
2014-07-10T12:41:35Z Enfors: Once I get used to it, I might think going back to Python / C style naming conventions is what's strange.
2014-07-10T12:41:44Z H4ns: Enfors: what you observe is that lisp source code does not give you the same cues as other languages when reading the code.  lisp code is more defined by its structure, not so much by the symbols used to denote the source.  you look more at how things are indented and nested than how they are capitalized and decorated.
2014-07-10T12:42:07Z Enfors: H4ns: I see.
2014-07-10T12:42:11Z Xach: Enfors: unlikely. each makes sense in its own context. a new context can mean different conventions and sensibilities.
2014-07-10T12:42:19Z Shinmera: Thinking in syntax trees rather than syntax symbols is key to a lot.
2014-07-10T12:42:29Z Enfors: Hmm, interesting.
2014-07-10T12:42:38Z Xach: It can be very ugly to read code written in one language that has a heavy accent from another.
2014-07-10T12:42:45Z Enfors: Well, thanks for the input guys, it makes a bit more sense to me now.
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2014-07-10T12:43:32Z Enfors: Xach: Right, I want to avoid that. That's why I don't put "{" on lines of their own (even though I prefer to do that) when I write Perl code.
2014-07-10T12:44:08Z Xach shudders to think of ) on their own lines in CL
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2014-07-10T12:44:16Z AeroNotix: agreed
2014-07-10T12:44:30Z Shinmera: Xach: I've seen it all too often when googling around for things.
2014-07-10T12:44:49Z Enfors: Is it atypical to see empty lines within a function / block in Lisp? I prefer lots of empty lines inbetween things in other languages...
2014-07-10T12:45:26Z Shinmera: I'd say that's up to your jurisdiction, but usually if you need to split it with empty lines it means you could split it into functions.
2014-07-10T12:45:42Z ggole: It's less common than in other languages, perhaps
2014-07-10T12:45:46Z H4ns: Enfors: personally, i like to use one empty line to separate top-level and larger blocks of non-top-level forms
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2014-07-10T12:46:14Z ggole: Feel free to add as much whitespace as you like though
2014-07-10T12:46:20Z Enfors: Shinmera: Hmm, you're probably right. It seems to me that in Lisp, you typically put so much code on each line, that most function don't get very long, thus reducing the need for empty lines to separate them into subsections.
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2014-07-10T12:46:59Z Shinmera: I do like putting empty lines after cond/case blocks though, especially when they're rather flat.
2014-07-10T12:47:05Z Enfors: H4ns: Well, you'd have to pry the empty lines between *functions* out of my cold, dead hands.
2014-07-10T12:47:26Z H4ns: Enfors: i put one line between each top-level form
2014-07-10T12:47:35Z Ralt: I like empty lines in other languages, but I don't really mind not having them in lisp, not sure why
2014-07-10T12:47:38Z H4ns: between each of two
2014-07-10T12:47:44Z Ralt: when I read code like this for example: https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm/blob/master/manual.lisp
2014-07-10T12:47:48Z Ralt: I don't see the need for them
2014-07-10T12:48:07Z phadthai: hmm putting as much code on a single line as possible is not necessarily a lisp goal; it's better to have less code per line but better intended code showing clearly the coder's intention
2014-07-10T12:48:12Z H4ns: looks nice.  because of the regular indentation.
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2014-07-10T12:49:34Z moore33: Ralt: That code looks well-formatted to me, which I think you are saying too.
2014-07-10T12:49:42Z Ralt: moore33: that's probably it
2014-07-10T12:50:47Z H4ns: actually, it could be formatted better if emacs knew that ppcre:register-groups-bind is a binding macro, not a function.
2014-07-10T12:51:07Z moore33: Ouch, yes.
2014-07-10T12:51:10Z Ralt: oh yes, something that irks me.
2014-07-10T12:51:16Z Ralt: How do you make emacs know that?
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2014-07-10T12:51:20Z Ralt: wait, I'm googling.
2014-07-10T12:51:28Z H4ns: and using the input stream argument as eof value for read-string is, well, a little tasteless
2014-07-10T12:52:02Z phadthai: an often used trick/convention is to begin those with WITH-
2014-07-10T12:52:02Z Shinmera: Ralt: Here's an example https://github.com/Shinmera/radiance/blob/master/lib/core/indent.lisp
2014-07-10T12:52:21Z Shinmera: ^the above allows you to define custom indentation for slime on pretty much any function/macro
2014-07-10T12:52:28Z H4ns: phadthai: good point.  maybe i should add a with-bound-registers alias for register-groups-bind
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2014-07-10T12:53:23Z moore33: in emacs:
2014-07-10T12:53:26Z moore33: (put 'updating-output
2014-07-10T12:53:27Z moore33:      'common-lisp-indent-function
2014-07-10T12:53:27Z moore33:      '(&lambda &body))
2014-07-10T12:53:54Z moore33: or something more hairy:
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2014-07-10T12:53:58Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-07-10T12:54:03Z moore33: (put 'once-only
2014-07-10T12:54:03Z moore33:      'common-lisp-indent-function
2014-07-10T12:54:03Z moore33:      '((&whole 4 &rest (&whole 1 1 2)) &body))
2014-07-10T12:54:21Z H4ns: nice, thanks!
2014-07-10T12:56:27Z Enfors: Uhmm. If you want multiple arguments to a defmethod, do you *have* to have a defgeneric?
2014-07-10T12:56:43Z Enfors: (I'm using defstruct, not defclass if it matters?
2014-07-10T12:57:18Z H4ns: Enfors: (defmethod foo (bar (baz fruit) boo) ...) works just fine?
2014-07-10T12:57:29Z Guthur: does SBCL have a list of operations that our consider thread safe?
2014-07-10T12:57:40Z Guthur: our/are
2014-07-10T12:58:05Z moore33: Enfors: You don't necessarily need a defgeneric form, though it is better style.
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2014-07-10T12:59:25Z Enfors: H4ns: So it does. It didn't work for me earlier... I had (defmethod menu-enter (m)) ... ) and changed it to (defmethod menu-enter(menu deck) ... ) and ccl got all upset with me saying something about "defgeneric (which I wasn't using) didn't match lambda-something-or-other"
2014-07-10T12:59:50Z Shinmera: Enfors: you should go read up about how methods work
2014-07-10T13:00:09Z Enfors: ... which lead me to believe that there was an implicit defgeneric with one argument, and if you wanted to something else you needed to define it yourself. Or something.
2014-07-10T13:00:50Z H4ns: Enfors: you cannot define a method for a generic function that has a different (non-congruent) lambda list
2014-07-10T13:00:51Z moore33: Enfors: With no defgeneric form, you created an inconsistency when you defined a method with a different number of arguments.
2014-07-10T13:01:12Z moore33: With a defgeneric, it would have just been an error :)
2014-07-10T13:01:17Z Enfors: Shinmera: I did, but apparently I forgot how they work. I'll re-read. Thing is, I only found info about defmethod in combination with defgeneric/defclass, but I'm not using that, only defstruct.
2014-07-10T13:01:27Z Shinmera: All methods belong to a generic function
2014-07-10T13:01:44Z moore33: defgeneric has very little to do with defclass ;)
2014-07-10T13:02:02Z Enfors: moore33: oooh, so I should have "undefined" the function first and then I'd have been fine?
2014-07-10T13:02:05Z moore33: Other than that you can create generic functions and methods with defclass.
2014-07-10T13:02:22Z Enfors: moore33: Oh, I didn't know that.
2014-07-10T13:02:37Z moore33: moore33: Or something... I'm sure what you're supposed to do; maybe makfunbound?
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2014-07-10T13:02:58Z H4ns: (fmakunbound 'the-functions-name)
2014-07-10T13:03:17Z moore33: Yes, that.
2014-07-10T13:03:18Z Enfors: moore33: I thought defgeneric and defmethod were strictly class things actually meant for defclass, but you could also "get away with" using it with defstruct instead of defclass, in case defclass scared you (as it does with me).
2014-07-10T13:03:34Z Enfors: Cool, thanks
2014-07-10T13:03:43Z H4ns: Enfors: don't use defstruct unless you have a specific reason to
2014-07-10T13:03:44Z Shinmera: What the in the world is "scary" about defclass
2014-07-10T13:03:59Z Shinmera: And why would you ever prefer defstruct unless you're optimising
2014-07-10T13:04:08Z moore33: Enfors: No, the whole trick with CLOS is that defgeneric/defmethod has a very loose relationship with defclass.
2014-07-10T13:04:11Z H4ns: Enfors: the convenience of the implicit accessors rarely outweigh the disadvantages during development.
2014-07-10T13:04:36Z mr-foobar: does the concept of run-time macros make sense ?
2014-07-10T13:04:57Z Shinmera: Depends on what you mean by macro and run-time
2014-07-10T13:05:01Z H4ns: moore33: the relationship is not so loose given that standard method dispatch operates on classes (among some, lesser, other things)
2014-07-10T13:05:08Z Enfors: Shinmera: Well, it was scary because I couldn't get it to work after reading the two chapters on OOC in PCL :-) I guess I should have gone back and re-read them... what I really want is a short 40 or 50 line CLOS mini-app as an example to look at, but I haven't found any in the tutorials / books I've read.
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2014-07-10T13:06:45Z Ralt: damn, I would've shown you http://learnlispthehardway.org/book/2-03-0-objects-control/
2014-07-10T13:06:48Z Ralt: but it's not done yet...
2014-07-10T13:06:59Z mr-foobar: if i understand correctly, lisp needs two atleast two phases. compile-time, where eval expands all macros and run-time which runs pure sexps
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2014-07-10T13:07:47Z Shinmera: Enfors: I don't know how comprehensible this is to you, but it's the smallest class example I could find in my code https://github.com/Shinmera/trainer/blob/master/program.lisp
2014-07-10T13:07:59Z moore33: H4ns: Yes, but objects defined by defclass aren't the only classes. Let's not forget eql specialization either.
2014-07-10T13:08:14Z Enfors: Shinmera: Thanks, I'll look.
2014-07-10T13:08:20Z Shinmera: Enfors: If you have a specific idea of what you want a program to do that uses OOP I could write you something once I'm bored, but again as last time, as long as you can't explain what you're bothered about I can't very well help you
2014-07-10T13:08:25Z Ralt: Shinmera: why %?
2014-07-10T13:08:41Z Enfors: Ralt: Dude, is that the site that turned up on reddit.com/r/lisp, and the author (you?) said, "awkward, it's not done yet"?
2014-07-10T13:08:41Z Ralt: do they give something?
2014-07-10T13:08:54Z Shinmera: Ralt: I like to imply that slots should be accessed with the accessors rather than slot-value
2014-07-10T13:09:03Z Ralt: that's not me
2014-07-10T13:09:07Z Ralt: Shinmera: oh, ok
2014-07-10T13:09:10Z moore33: Ralt: Relatively common naming convention for slots.
2014-07-10T13:09:19Z moore33: Or other private stuff.
2014-07-10T13:09:25Z Enfors: Ralt: Ok.
2014-07-10T13:10:02Z Ralt: Enfors: but yeah, that's the site
2014-07-10T13:10:05Z H4ns: moore33: eql is among the "lesser things", and clos is the only way to add new classes that standard dispatch operates on.  it is true that classes and methods are separate in clos, but they are not unrelated and using either without the other is possible, but not really as power- or useful as using them together.
2014-07-10T13:10:06Z Enfors: Shinmera: That's very kind of you. Let's see if I can get my mini-project switched over to defclass / defgeneric instead of defstruct...
2014-07-10T13:10:14Z Ralt: your question made me think of it :-)
2014-07-10T13:10:50Z Enfors: Ralt: Oh, cool =)
2014-07-10T13:11:03Z H4ns: Shinmera: is that implication not implicit?  i mean, there is slot-value and it is an indication that something special, maybe unwanted is going on.
2014-07-10T13:11:34Z mr-foobar: Shinmera: i guess, what i want is, to have utilities which can help me parse quoted sexprs, which I can pass to a defun
2014-07-10T13:11:48Z Shinmera: H4ns: I suppose so, I just got into the habit of doing it and since the slot name is only in the defclass it shouldn't bother anyone
2014-07-10T13:11:55Z H4ns: mr-foobar: read/compile/funcall?
2014-07-10T13:12:36Z moore33: H4ns: I can't argue against your point because it's fundamentally true, and generic functions are not very interesting without user-defined classes, but the point can't be made strongly enough that, in CL, generic functions are not strongly linked to classes. In contrast to all other languages except those that have consciously copied CL (Dylan, Ju
2014-07-10T13:12:36Z moore33: lia).
2014-07-10T13:12:40Z mr-foobar: H4ns: i need to slice-up what I read, before making a funcall
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2014-07-10T13:13:05Z H4ns: mr-foobar: read/slice-up-and-improve/compile/funcall
2014-07-10T13:13:11Z mr-foobar: yup
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2014-07-10T13:13:16Z Zhivago: Well, they're strongly linked to classes -- probably the point is that they're not contained by a class.
2014-07-10T13:13:39Z Zhivago: And the important point there is just multiple dispatch.
2014-07-10T13:13:41Z mr-foobar: how do I do slicing ? create another sexpr from a given sexpr
2014-07-10T13:13:52Z Zhivago: subseq?
2014-07-10T13:13:59Z Guthur quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2014-07-10T13:14:08Z H4ns: mr-foobar: your s-expr is just a list, you stop thinking about s-expressions after you've read them.
2014-07-10T13:14:48Z Shinmera: H4ns: I suppose another effect of %-ing is that the slot symbol isn't exported, so library users can't reach it with slot-value in the first place.
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2014-07-10T13:15:25Z H4ns: Shinmera: trying to enforce module isolation that way in lisp is futile.
2014-07-10T13:15:42Z mr-foobar: (- 5 3)  <-> (is-positive ( - 5 3)) <-> (log (is-positive (- 5 3))
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2014-07-10T13:15:45Z H4ns: Shinmera: and in the end, if i need to access your friggin slots, i'll just use foo::%bar as the name.
2014-07-10T13:16:03Z Shinmera: H4ns: Well yes, there's always a way (and I like that there is)
2014-07-10T13:16:20Z mr-foobar: what list-processing utilities can I use ?
2014-07-10T13:16:29Z Shinmera: all of them
2014-07-10T13:16:58Z H4ns: mr-foobar: (let ((x (read-from-string "(- 5 3)"))) `(log (is-positive ,x)))
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2014-07-10T13:18:00Z mr-foobar: H4ns: is that runtime or compiletime ? "(- 5 3)" can be user input # pardon my confusion
2014-07-10T13:18:23Z moore33: Zhivago: Strongly linked to classes, not strongly linked to defclass. Ok, I should be more clear.
2014-07-10T13:18:34Z mr-foobar: it non-network code, so i can avoid security for now
2014-07-10T13:18:50Z H4ns: mr-foobar: you'll need to ponder that yourself.
2014-07-10T13:18:57Z Zhivago: I think that the issue is not linkage but containership.
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2014-07-10T13:21:46Z mr-foobar: H4ns: an alternate wording for my question. xml has stream processing api's, is there a similar available api s-exprs ?
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2014-07-10T13:23:14Z H4ns: mr-foobar: i'm not aware of such a thing, but as parsing s-expressions is easy, writing a specialized parser for them is very easy
2014-07-10T13:23:28Z H4ns: mr-foobar: you can even use the lisp reader to read non-parens.
2014-07-10T13:24:54Z mr-foobar: H4ns: yeah but error reporting, validation are hard.
2014-07-10T13:25:11Z H4ns: yeah but, start coding now.
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2014-07-10T13:25:59Z mr-foobar: i guess so :)
2014-07-10T13:26:32Z mr-foobar: as much as I hate xml, it seems they are the only ones bothering about those things. json quickly falls apart :/
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2014-07-10T13:31:36Z mr-foobar: H4ns: on a side note, has anyone used s-exprs for network protocols ?
2014-07-10T13:31:46Z H4ns: of course.
2014-07-10T13:32:02Z Enfors: Damnit. I'm starting to want to rewrite my MUD in Lisp again :(
2014-07-10T13:32:59Z mr-foobar: awesome ! link please ! i'd love to read the source code :)
2014-07-10T13:33:12Z phadthai: swank/slime is an example
2014-07-10T13:34:04Z fe[nl]ix: mr-foobar: IMAP
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2014-07-10T13:34:58Z phadthai: also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-expression#Standardization
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2014-07-10T13:37:09Z hitecnologys: Enfors: I made several attempts of writing MUDs in Lisp. Without success, though.
2014-07-10T13:39:06Z hitecnologys: Enfors: if you ever start doing this, let me know. I might participate in my spare time.
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2014-07-10T13:40:35Z mr-foobar: fe[nl]ix: mind blown !
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2014-07-10T13:40:58Z mr-foobar: but something simpler please :)
2014-07-10T13:41:03Z Cymew: Nothing should surprise you when MRC is involved
2014-07-10T13:41:37Z mr-foobar: MRC ?
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2014-07-10T13:43:23Z Cymew: Marc Crispin, the guy who invented IMAP. He died last year, or the year before. Interesting guy. He could talk a lot about things he knew.
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2014-07-10T13:43:45Z Cymew: Hmm. Was it Mark, maybe?
2014-07-10T13:43:58Z Shinmera: Yes, Mark
2014-07-10T13:44:12Z Cymew: Damn, a few yearsa nd you forget things...
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2014-07-10T13:47:03Z mr-foobar: Rare human :(
2014-07-10T13:47:51Z mr-foobar: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4042
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2014-07-10T13:50:42Z Cymew: Mark was a very smart guy. Reminded me a bit of Erik Naggum. Quite polarizing sometimes.
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2014-07-10T13:57:18Z Enfors: hitecnologys: What? Really?
2014-07-10T13:58:17Z hitecnologys: Enfors: well, it wasn't exactly MUD, more like text adventures platform. But I planned to turn it into MUD one day.
2014-07-10T13:58:33Z eudoxia: my first lisp project was a parser for interactive fiction commands
2014-07-10T13:59:00Z eudoxia: absolutely horrifying code that reimplemented old CL functions
2014-07-10T13:59:01Z Enfors: Wow. You guys are just as nerdy as I am.
2014-07-10T13:59:06Z hitecnologys: Huh. It's good to hear somebody still play these.
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2014-07-10T13:59:25Z eudoxia: hitecnologys: i got my screen name from emily short's Galatea!
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2014-07-10T14:00:00Z Enfors: I haven't played MUDs in 10 - 15 years, but I never stopped thinking about making one. I have one in Python that works, but it lacks any sort of content.
2014-07-10T14:00:04Z hitecnologys: eudoxia: huh. Nice.
2014-07-10T14:00:23Z Enfors: eudoxia: Cool.
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2014-07-10T14:00:55Z Shinmera: The code of my first lisp project is still public
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2014-07-10T14:01:27Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: which one is that?
2014-07-10T14:01:28Z eudoxia: >Heat floods you. She shouldn’t be able to do that, shouldn’t touch the audience without permission, certainly shouldn’t inflict pain or injury. Broken.
2014-07-10T14:01:31Z Shinmera: I wrote it during my one week holiday in Japan
2014-07-10T14:01:32Z eudoxia: >Spluttering, you speak an old reset code – EUDOXIA – but she doesn’t respond. Other than with a positively ghoulish smile.
2014-07-10T14:01:37Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: lQuery
2014-07-10T14:01:51Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: The earliest source isn't in git, but the closes to early is https://github.com/Shinmera/lquery/tree/6b51ab4b6fe7414945a3bc6facd1d0e2ba3c905d
2014-07-10T14:01:57Z Shinmera: *closest
2014-07-10T14:02:14Z Ralt: https://github.com/Shinmera/lquery/blob/6b51ab4b6fe7414945a3bc6facd1d0e2ba3c905d/lquery.lisp#L95-L97
2014-07-10T14:02:17Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I see. Well, it looks quite clean. Mine was a mess.
2014-07-10T14:02:17Z Ralt: uh?
2014-07-10T14:02:36Z Shinmera: Ralt: Yes?
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2014-07-10T14:03:03Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: it looks real messy to me in retrospect!
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2014-07-10T14:04:12Z troydm: this book http://learnlispthehardway.org might make lisp more popular and easy to adopt for newcomers
2014-07-10T14:04:15Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: certainly better than what I had. It's not public but I still have it.
2014-07-10T14:04:47Z eudoxia: i was thinking about writing a "Modern Common Lisp" book but i'm glad someone's doing it
2014-07-10T14:04:56Z eudoxia: maybe we could all contribute chapters on our areas of expertise :>
2014-07-10T14:05:25Z Enfors: I don't understand the name of that book. In what way is it teaching "the hard way", and why is learning the hard way a good thing?
2014-07-10T14:05:25Z mr-foobar: Shinmera: you are painter ! super awesome !
2014-07-10T14:05:26Z troydm: eudoxia: it's 0.2 alpha version and still going
2014-07-10T14:05:26Z madrik quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2014-07-10T14:05:28Z hitecnologys: I think we should quit writing LispOS and write LispMUD.
2014-07-10T14:05:31Z Shinmera: Well at least I'm glad Zed Shaw isn't writing that one
2014-07-10T14:05:49Z hitecnologys: And then turn it into LispMMO and then beat EA and conquer the world.
2014-07-10T14:05:51Z Shinmera: mr-foobar: Uh, thanks, I guess?
2014-07-10T14:06:08Z eudoxia: Shinmera: did you meet fukamachi or any other cool lisp people in japan?
2014-07-10T14:06:45Z Shinmera: eudoxia: It was my first time in Japan and I didn't know anything about Lisp at that point besides having read PCL and being amazed at some of the stuff I caught during my time lurking in here
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2014-07-10T14:07:15Z Shinmera: I was then further amazed that I was able to write up lQuery as quickly and easily as I did
2014-07-10T14:07:34Z Enfors: I was in Japan last year - nothing to do with programming though, more to do with getting my ass kicked by small Japanese girls half my size (I practice a martial art).
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2014-07-10T14:08:54Z mr-foobar: Shinmera: honest question, is hacking like painting, as pg describes ?
2014-07-10T14:09:48Z Shinmera: mr-foobar: Programming and drawing require two rather different mindsets in my experience, though creative problem solving, method and practise are important in both fields.
2014-07-10T14:09:50Z Xach thinks of http://www.idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm when that question comes up
2014-07-10T14:11:25Z mr-foobar: Shinmera: i thought so too. there is a thing with art though, which i thing programmers sorely lack.
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2014-07-10T14:11:54Z wizzo: okay how about this. is it safe turn a string from an untrusted source into a symbol like using intern?
2014-07-10T14:12:03Z mr-foobar: it's the quality of the end product. it can't be sloppy, even for a single pixel.
2014-07-10T14:12:12Z Enfors: Time to go home. See you guys!
2014-07-10T14:12:29Z Shinmera: wizzo: Symbols don't get GC-ed
2014-07-10T14:12:35Z Shinmera: wizzo: well interned ones anyway
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2014-07-10T14:12:44Z wizzo: GC?
2014-07-10T14:12:48Z eudoxia: it could be a potential DOS attack
2014-07-10T14:12:48Z Shinmera: garbage collected
2014-07-10T14:12:50Z Xach: wizzo: in some situations, find-symbol may be more appropriate.
2014-07-10T14:13:05Z Xach: for example, if you're turning it into a symbol to use to look up from a set of known already-interned symbols.
2014-07-10T14:13:22Z Xach: it is "safer" than intern in that it doesn't create a symbol if it doesn't exist.
2014-07-10T14:13:42Z wizzo: i am trying to have it that the user enter a name and it looks that up in an assoc list
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2014-07-10T14:13:54Z H4ns: wizzo: find-symbol would be appropriate.
2014-07-10T14:14:04Z Xach: Then the symbol already exists (because it is used as a key) so find-symbol would do the trick.
2014-07-10T14:14:04Z Shinmera: From what I can grok of the article Xach posted it's likely that I'll agree with all points made in it
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2014-07-10T14:14:48Z wizzo: cool!
2014-07-10T14:14:50Z wizzo: thank you :)
2014-07-10T14:14:58Z Shinmera: wizzo: you could also use strings as keys in your alist and use (assoc search alist :test #'string-equal)
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2014-07-10T14:15:34Z Xach: I also like it because the footnotes link to http://www.xach.com/lisp/taste-for-the-web.html
2014-07-10T14:15:39Z wizzo: ooooh that's right it uses eq by default right?
2014-07-10T14:15:45Z Shinmera: wizzo: hence the :test
2014-07-10T14:15:51Z Shinmera: and no it uses eql
2014-07-10T14:19:02Z Ralt: Xach: lol, your article looks like the prediction was kinda... wrong :-)
2014-07-10T14:19:08Z eudoxia: >Raymond is the original perpetrator of the "what is a hacker?" essay, in which you quickly begin to understand that a hacker is someone who resembles Eric Raymond.
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2014-07-10T14:19:17Z eudoxia: hah so that's (maybe) where that phrase comes from
2014-07-10T14:19:25Z mr-foobar: Xach: i like do end, instead of { }
2014-07-10T14:19:39Z Xach: mr-foobar: perhaps you are secretly a great hacker
2014-07-10T14:19:50Z mr-foobar: lol
2014-07-10T14:19:58Z Shinmera: I still like this one http://www.secretgeek.net/lisp_truth.asp
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2014-07-10T14:21:35Z mr-foobar: i found this fascinating lisp coding convention once
2014-07-10T14:21:44Z mr-foobar: (defun ...
2014-07-10T14:21:58Z mr-foobar: ) ; defun
2014-07-10T14:22:03Z H4ns: ieh
2014-07-10T14:22:31Z mr-foobar: with k&r style parens :P
2014-07-10T14:22:32Z Xach: "(defun ... ) ; nufed" would remind me of shell scripting a bit
2014-07-10T14:22:46Z eudoxia: ughhhh that's like when people add comments to html end tags
2014-07-10T14:22:52Z moore33: Xach: That is hilarious! The only thing missing is that you can extend the criticisms to subjects that Graham does know well :)
2014-07-10T14:22:52Z eudoxia: </div> <!-- header -->
2014-07-10T14:23:01Z Shinmera: (defun nufed)
2014-07-10T14:23:11Z hitecnologys: Do C# and Java programmers do such things? I would like to head what they say.
2014-07-10T14:23:27Z mr-foobar: eudoxia: yup. looks like that
2014-07-10T14:23:28Z hitecnologys: Damn, s/head/hear/
2014-07-10T14:23:40Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: do what things?
2014-07-10T14:23:59Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: write the truth about their languages.
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2014-07-10T14:25:38Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: The truth about that is up to their respective consortia :^)
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2014-07-10T14:27:17Z mr-foobar: ah, it's this guy -- http://walterhiggins.net/blog/Lisp-is-useful
2014-07-10T14:27:30Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: that reminds me of a quote of somebody about adding new syntax element to CL and to Java.
2014-07-10T14:28:18Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: you're thinking of this one http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Lisp_programming_language#Lisp_macros
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2014-07-10T14:28:37Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: yes.
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2014-07-10T14:29:14Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: the funny thing about it is that it's quite close to reality.
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2014-07-10T15:23:28Z Guthur`: Does slime provide any means of editing via the inspector
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2014-07-10T15:23:52Z Guthur`: eg. if i have a variable with (list 1 2) can i edit a place in that list
2014-07-10T15:26:40Z stassats: can't do that example
2014-07-10T15:26:55Z stassats: you can change instance slots
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2014-07-10T15:27:55Z Fare: Guthur: yes you can
2014-07-10T15:28:09Z Fare: with i or e
2014-07-10T15:28:33Z Fare: well, not so much "edit" as "evaluate a form that edits"
2014-07-10T15:29:17Z H4ns: but the inspector is not updated afterwards
2014-07-10T15:29:18Z pjb: minion: memo for joe-w-bimedina you could use import, but it could be objected, because it makes your sources less declarative: now we need a lisp interpreter to load and evaluate your source to be able to assign semantics to it.  With a defpackage setting once for all the symbols, it's easier to understand what's happening.
2014-07-10T15:29:18Z minion: lisp is the glue that binds the variables together
2014-07-10T15:29:23Z H4ns: which makes the feature a bit useless.
2014-07-10T15:29:28Z |3b|: might be able to "copy to repl" if there is a presentation, and edit that
2014-07-10T15:29:32Z pjb: minion: memo for joe-w-bimedina: you could use import, but it could be objected, because it makes your sources less declarative: now we need a lisp interpreter to load and evaluate your source to be able to assign semantics to it.  With a defpackage setting once for all the symbols, it's easier to understand what's happening.
2014-07-10T15:29:32Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell joe-w-bimedina when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-07-10T15:31:04Z pjb: Guthur`: if you have a functional editor, you can write: (let ((variable '(list 1 2))) (setf (car variable) (edit (car variable))))
2014-07-10T15:31:41Z Guthur`: the instance  slots indeed works well, which might be enough
2014-07-10T15:32:19Z pjb: For example, try sedit.
2014-07-10T15:32:45Z pjb: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/sedit/
2014-07-10T15:32:52Z rick-monster: is there any consensus on best practice to lay out packages and unit tests in a common lisp project?  Better to put all tests in their own package or next to the functions? Do people here find it particularly advantageous to use a test framework?
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2014-07-10T15:33:27Z Xach: Every project I've seen has separate tests in their own package
2014-07-10T15:33:31Z pjb: There are as many lisp test framework as lisp programmer using test driven development.
2014-07-10T15:33:43Z pjb: (ie. a certain non-negligeable number).
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2014-07-10T15:34:10Z Zhivago: Are there a non-negligible number of lisp programmers?
2014-07-10T15:34:30Z pjb: I like to have small test functions along with the code, and a call to (test) at the end of the file, so that tests are run when the library is loaded so I'm sure it works.
2014-07-10T15:34:44Z pjb: Zhivago: yes.
2014-07-10T15:34:50Z Xach: Nobody else does it that way.
2014-07-10T15:35:00Z H4ns: Xach: not true.  i do it in some cases as well.
2014-07-10T15:35:01Z pjb: ita software gathered 30 or 50 of them, it's non negligible.
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2014-07-10T15:35:12Z H4ns: pjb: most of them don't do lisp anynmore.
2014-07-10T15:35:35Z H4ns: pjb: so google killed most of the lisp programmer population
2014-07-10T15:35:35Z pjb: Life's too short.
2014-07-10T15:35:48Z H4ns: look, a parrot!
2014-07-10T15:35:50Z pjb: If we lived 500 years, things would be very different.
2014-07-10T15:35:56Z Guthur`: pjb: something like sedit would nearly fit for what i have in mind, though i will probably try the SLIME solutions first
2014-07-10T15:36:08Z Xach: Only two weirdos do it that way.
2014-07-10T15:36:32Z pjb: Guthur`: actually, sedit would have to be extended to use curses, it would be nicer so.
2014-07-10T15:36:32Z Xach: Ok, on average, two perfectly normal people do it that way.
2014-07-10T15:36:33Z H4ns: Xach: oi!
2014-07-10T15:36:43Z moore33: Do you want to deploy your tests with code?
2014-07-10T15:37:23Z moore33: s/code/your code/
2014-07-10T15:37:25Z Guthur`: Zhivago: i would say so, if you count Schemes, CL, and Clojure.
2014-07-10T15:37:28Z pjb: moore33: again, if those are small tests, why not.  Of course, if you have 200% tests vs. code, and if they take hours to run, better put them in separate systems.
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2014-07-10T15:39:04Z Zhivago: If we lived 500 years things would probably be more conservative.
2014-07-10T15:39:37Z moore33: http://longnow.org/clock/
2014-07-10T15:43:00Z Denommus: Zhivago: Clojure is big-ish nowadays
2014-07-10T15:44:07Z rick-monster: seems like I won't go far wrong to leave tests next to functions using assert, then migrate tests to a separate package using :unit-test every now and then...
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2014-07-10T15:44:28Z H4ns: rick-monster: no, that's a sound approach.
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2014-07-10T15:46:14Z pjb: Zhivago: people would be less desperate, and they'd be more careful about the environment, etc.
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2014-07-10T15:52:56Z Zhivago: There's a saying that science advances tombstone by tombstone.
2014-07-10T15:53:03Z Zhivago: I think it has a point.
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2014-07-10T15:54:06Z pjb: Perhaps that could change.
2014-07-10T15:55:05Z pjb: My thesis is that short lifes make people desperate so they grab something and hang on it.  If we lived 500 years or more, we could more easily take non vital risks, like testing new scientific theories.
2014-07-10T15:55:43Z Xach: Or eating spicy meatballs
2014-07-10T15:56:08Z pjb: Finding new spices on new planets.
2014-07-10T15:56:54Z Guest50695: pjb: if this was not offtopic, i'd wonder how you'd test your thesis
2014-07-10T15:57:28Z pjb: By growing (selection or genetic manipulation) long lived humans? :-)
2014-07-10T15:58:07Z j_king: uploading a human brain into a simulation and speeding up time?
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2014-07-10T15:58:50Z pjb: European neurologists don't believe the simulation being built will work (or they want a share of the pi€.
2014-07-10T15:59:34Z jasom: pjb: I think if we lived 500 years we would still think it was too short.
2014-07-10T15:59:59Z pjb: of course :-)
2014-07-10T16:00:17Z phadthai: that depends in living quality/conditions
2014-07-10T16:01:38Z phadthai: s/depends in/depends on/
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2014-07-10T16:05:05Z moore33: grrr 4 copies of International Lisp Conference announcements grrr
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2014-07-10T16:28:52Z Xach: only 4? bless your soul
2014-07-10T16:29:35Z Fare: does anyone use or understand the cl-quicklisp debian package?
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2014-07-10T16:32:26Z Fare: does it have a shared quicklisp in /usr/share/common-lisp or does it just have a program that installs quicklisp in the user's home directory?
2014-07-10T16:32:52Z Fare: Xach: is the correct search order ~/quicklisp/ then ~/.quicklisp/ ?
2014-07-10T16:33:01Z Xach: There is no search order.
2014-07-10T16:33:23Z Xach: Quicklisp is installed wherever the setup.lisp is loaded from.
2014-07-10T16:33:23Z eudoxia: you load it manually in your .[lisp]rc
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2014-07-10T16:38:11Z moore33: Xach: I'm not a Lisp heavyweight like you :)
2014-07-10T16:38:19Z moore33: Not anymore, anyway.
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2014-07-10T18:14:27Z jasom: Library for indenting common lisp code (in common lisp, not elisp)?
2014-07-10T18:14:40Z stassats: pprint
2014-07-10T18:14:46Z jasom: I found one in newlisp as well, strangely enough...
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2014-07-10T18:15:11Z Xach: Haven't heard of something like that. It seems to me like it is hard to do, because of readtables, #+/#-, #., etc
2014-07-10T18:15:13Z jasom: stassats: that's what I'm using now, it doesn't handle special-forms differently though.
2014-07-10T18:15:27Z jasom: stassats: also read-macros
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2014-07-10T18:15:36Z Bicyclidine: it doesn't?
2014-07-10T18:15:52Z Bicyclidine: i thought most pprints intended let forms differently and such...
2014-07-10T18:16:28Z jasom: Bicyclidine: ah, it does some forms it appears
2014-07-10T18:16:33Z jasom: also it destroys the original line-breaks
2014-07-10T18:16:51Z Bicyclidine: i think there are settings for that
2014-07-10T18:16:58Z Bicyclidine: the pprinter is kind of crazy
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2014-07-10T18:17:08Z jasom: Bicyclidine: by the time it reaches pprint, all information about the original string is lost though.
2014-07-10T18:17:18Z Bicyclidine: true.
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2014-07-10T18:17:48Z jasom: so (pprint (read-from-string "#+(or)1")) clearly won't work
2014-07-10T18:18:27Z jasom: I googled for it and found an implementation in newlisp
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2014-07-10T18:19:12Z jasom: aha http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/scmindent/lispindent.lisp
2014-07-10T18:19:27Z jasom: (I didn't click through since I saw scmindent.rkt and just figured it was all in scheme
2014-07-10T18:20:08Z stassats: i plan on writing one
2014-07-10T18:20:24Z jasom would have thought climacs had one too
2014-07-10T18:20:26Z stassats: since i already have a reader and colorizer (which handle #+)
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2014-07-10T18:21:28Z jasom: stassats: remind me again: com.informatimago is yours?
2014-07-10T18:21:40Z Xach: ho ho
2014-07-10T18:21:43Z Xach: that is pjb's
2014-07-10T18:21:52Z jasom: oh, which reader is stassats then?
2014-07-10T18:21:53Z stassats: jasom: i would consider that to be an insult
2014-07-10T18:21:56Z jasom: sorry
2014-07-10T18:22:19Z stassats: it's a part of an IDE i've been slacking on writing
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2014-07-10T18:24:20Z jasom: ah climacs has one too (lisp-syntax.lisp)
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2014-07-10T18:25:43Z stassats: i'm also planning on separate all the supporting code in the future
2014-07-10T18:25:51Z stassats: so that things like that could be used independently
2014-07-10T18:26:02Z stassats: (i can't do much besides planning)
2014-07-10T18:26:08Z stassats: s/can't/don't/
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2014-07-10T18:27:17Z jasom: I was messing around with lisp in various editors and was completely floored by the lack of indent support; Before emacs the only one I'd used for lisp was vim, which has a passable (but not great) lisp indentation mode built in.
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2014-07-10T18:28:10Z stanislav: jasom: slimv improves indentation a bit, but not quite satisfactory
2014-07-10T18:28:13Z jasom: But I just tried 6 editors from my os package manager and none of them will do even basic s-expression indentation, despite 4 of them having syntax modes for at least one of (lisp scheme clojure)
2014-07-10T18:28:45Z stassats: even slime and emacs leave a lot to be desired when editing / displaying lisp
2014-07-10T18:28:56Z jasom: All 6 would just preserve the indentation of the previous line, which is essentially useless
2014-07-10T18:29:25Z Shinmera: jasom: CodeMirror at least has a crude Common Lisp mode
2014-07-10T18:30:29Z stassats: i think i could start using my "ide" if i implemented file saving
2014-07-10T18:30:58Z jasom: stassats: I'm guessing it's commonQt based?
2014-07-10T18:30:59Z stassats: start using => get annoyed => fix => repeat
2014-07-10T18:31:02Z stassats: jasom: naturally
2014-07-10T18:31:10Z Shinmera: Also, I would be very interested in an indentation/coloring library for the time when I add code panels to Parasol
2014-07-10T18:31:30Z Enfors: Shinmera: Code panels?
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2014-07-10T18:32:02Z Shinmera: Enfors: Brushes should be user-definable at a code level for one
2014-07-10T18:32:11Z Shinmera: Enfors: I'm also thinking of a scripting api and other things
2014-07-10T18:32:29Z Enfors: Shinmera: Cool. Reminds me of Gimp's script-fu.
2014-07-10T18:32:31Z stassats: i may have some old video which shows off some coloring
2014-07-10T18:32:52Z stassats: there it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUw3ECmiLJg
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2014-07-10T18:36:31Z jasom: nice
2014-07-10T18:36:52Z stassats: (i wrote the defun on one line to hide the lack of indentation)
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2014-07-10T19:21:17Z fortitude: jasom: the ABLE project also has code for doing some indenting and so forth
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2014-07-10T19:21:35Z fortitude: the algorithm isn't the best ever, but it seems to mostly work (and you can add hints to some degree)
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2014-07-10T19:25:22Z Ralt: what does that mean?   #-(and sbcl (not sb-thread))
2014-07-10T19:25:37Z stassats: disabled on unithreaded sbcls
2014-07-10T19:25:49Z Ralt: oh
2014-07-10T19:25:50Z Ralt: thanks
2014-07-10T19:26:55Z jasom: clhs #-
2014-07-10T19:26:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhr.htm
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2014-07-10T19:38:27Z moore33: Also hemlock...
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2014-07-10T20:47:28Z j_king: huh http://learnlispthehardway.org/ made it to the hn frontpage.
2014-07-10T20:48:38Z j_king: and is presently getting made fun of in the comment thread. sigh.
2014-07-10T20:50:17Z ThePhoeron: yeah, I noticed that when traffic suddenly spiked...
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2014-07-10T20:50:28Z ThePhoeron: this is all fairly stressful, heh
2014-07-10T20:52:29Z prxq: "connect with the author" followed by six icons. I feel old.
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2014-07-10T20:53:38Z prxq: ThePhoeron: are you the author?
2014-07-10T20:54:12Z ThePhoeron: prxq: yupp :\ and I totally was not ready for this to go public yet
2014-07-10T20:54:39Z prxq: the website looks sleek enough, I'd say
2014-07-10T20:55:16Z prxq: it even works :-)
2014-07-10T20:55:28Z ThePhoeron: well, thanks. I mostly just reverse engineered the bootstrap docs, did a little customization
2014-07-10T20:55:43Z ThePhoeron: I'm surprised it's handling the traffic so well
2014-07-10T20:55:49Z ejbs: j_king: made fun of? I didn't see anything like that. Perhaps I just suck at social cues.
2014-07-10T20:56:57Z j_king: ejbs: it is the Internet. It may be I who is mistaken.
2014-07-10T20:57:10Z prxq: the first comment on hacker news is a full-on attack (pretty low and pathetic, too)
2014-07-10T20:57:28Z oGMo: j_king: your only mistake was reading the comments ;)
2014-07-10T20:57:52Z prxq: ThePhoeron: which bootstrap docs?
2014-07-10T20:57:54Z ThePhoeron: hey, I figured I'd take flak for this project, esp. from the anti-lispers
2014-07-10T20:58:09Z oGMo: ThePhoeron: oh, you wrote it?
2014-07-10T20:58:21Z ThePhoeron: prxq: the twitter bootstrap docs, their theme
2014-07-10T20:58:31Z ThePhoeron: oGMo: yupp
2014-07-10T20:58:33Z prxq: ah, k
2014-07-10T20:58:34Z samebchase: ThePhoeron: All the best for the site/book!
2014-07-10T20:58:42Z oGMo: or "are writing" as the case appears to be
2014-07-10T20:58:46Z prxq crosses fingers too
2014-07-10T20:58:55Z ThePhoeron: oGMo: yes exactly ;)
2014-07-10T20:59:14Z ThePhoeron: samebchase: thanks!
2014-07-10T20:59:18Z oGMo: ThePhoeron: yeah quite. if the rest of the book is as good as the intro page, it'll be a winner i think
2014-07-10T20:59:23Z prxq: i guess the lesson is, never put up a site that is not ready :-) but cool in-browser interpreter.
2014-07-10T20:59:44Z prxq: and cool looks all around
2014-07-10T20:59:54Z oGMo: no the lesson is never listen to people who comment on message boards
2014-07-10T20:59:56Z ejbs: ThePhoeron: Is it OK to contribute through Github? I like how it sounds like there's a lisp in the title ("LLTHW")
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2014-07-10T21:00:19Z j_king: oGMo: indeed
2014-07-10T21:00:38Z ThePhoeron: prxq: seriously... just the other day I was thinking to myself, "hm, I should probably take the site down and make the repo private for now"
2014-07-10T21:00:46Z ThePhoeron: did I listen to myself? nope
2014-07-10T21:01:29Z ThePhoeron: ejbs: yeah, I think it would be cool to make this a community project like the Common Lisp Cookbook
2014-07-10T21:02:17Z ThePhoeron: doing so would mean putting it out in print might be difficult... but the book itself would surely be better for it
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2014-07-10T21:02:42Z prxq: i think the site is completely ok even unfinished.
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2014-07-10T21:03:13Z prxq: the lisp haters will not be swayed by anything anyway
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2014-07-10T21:03:45Z ThePhoeron: yeah
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2014-07-10T21:04:14Z ThePhoeron: I'm glad I took the time to optimize memory-usage in the web app
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2014-07-10T21:21:43Z PuercoPop: ThePhoeron: the sketches about quantum computing seem like they will be worth waiting for.
2014-07-10T21:22:50Z ThePhoeron: PuercoPop: yeah, that's one of my main interests, so I'm pretty excited to get there
2014-07-10T21:22:56Z ThePhoeron: lot to write first though
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2014-07-10T21:28:48Z PuercoPop: yeah it seems like a long journey ahead.  But they say the hardest part is the first steo
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2014-07-10T21:30:05Z ThePhoeron: I figured the most attention I'd get for this project, once it was done, was a casual shrug
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2014-07-10T21:31:01Z gabnex: what lisp is most functional (as in leaning toward the functional programming side, not bein the least dysfunctional :) )
2014-07-10T21:33:01Z gigamonkey: gabnex: scheme
2014-07-10T21:33:04Z |3b|: clojure and scheme focus more in that direction
2014-07-10T21:33:10Z gigamonkey cues scheme is not a lisp debate.
2014-07-10T21:33:15Z p_l: lol
2014-07-10T21:33:25Z gigamonkey: Oh, yeah, clojure too. I'm old school so I forget about it.
2014-07-10T21:33:28Z |3b| expects "most" would be some research dialect though
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2014-07-10T21:33:36Z gigamonkey: Qi
2014-07-10T21:33:39Z ejbs: gigamonkey: More like Qi
2014-07-10T21:33:46Z ejbs: Ooops
2014-07-10T21:33:48Z gigamonkey wins!
2014-07-10T21:33:53Z gabnex: yeah I guessed it would come down to scheme and clojure. so which one of the two?
2014-07-10T21:33:56Z p_l: I believe Clojure has even more functional bias than scheme. None, afaik, are pure functional.
2014-07-10T21:34:33Z p_l: Anyway, functional style tends to be followed in CL as well, it's just that it's a) not a dogma b) isn't pure
2014-07-10T21:34:57Z gigamonkey: Arguably Haskell is the modern day descendant of McCarthy's Lisp's functional ideas.
2014-07-10T21:35:19Z gigamonkey: Though #haskell is over there ----.
2014-07-10T21:35:20Z gigamonkey: >
2014-07-10T21:35:21Z |3b|: gabnex: this channel is about common lisp, so might have better luck with #scheme or #clojure for details of those languages
2014-07-10T21:35:48Z p_l: for a very strong fixation on functional purity, I recommend Haskell, but beware that some haskellers are more about pontification on mathematical purity that could make a mathematician grab a bottle and start a bar fight
2014-07-10T21:37:03Z gabnex: p_l haha
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2014-07-10T21:37:27Z moore33: Is Qi called Shen these days?
2014-07-10T21:37:42Z gigamonkey: moore33: That may be.
2014-07-10T21:37:49Z gigamonkey: They are definitely related.
2014-07-10T21:38:07Z p_l: I think Shen was Qi 2.0
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2014-07-10T21:38:27Z moore33: Mark Tarver(?) is all on about in c.l.l.
2014-07-10T21:38:40Z moore33: about it
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2014-07-10T21:45:36Z ejbs: What do you guys use to read c.l.l.? Or more specifically: How do you filter out the posts by WJ?
2014-07-10T21:46:17Z ejbs: Oh hey: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/Xmy-EAlE04U
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2014-07-10T21:46:29Z p_l: I think I can count my trips to c.l.l on one hand
2014-07-10T21:46:32Z p_l: best filter
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2014-07-10T21:49:02Z ejbs: p_l: Hehe :)
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2014-07-10T21:58:56Z drmeister: I'm reinvestigating serialization/marshaling in Common Lisp because I built serialization into my Common Lisp/C++ code (I need it for my scientific programming) and I realized that I had a shortcoming in how it handled lists.
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2014-07-10T21:59:24Z drmeister: I've been looking at the CL-MARSHAL library: https://github.com/wlbr/cl-marshal
2014-07-10T22:00:10Z drmeister: Surprisingly It has similar problems to mine!  It's a case of convergent evolution of bugs in code.
2014-07-10T22:00:54Z drmeister: Here's an example:    I define the list:    (#1=(5 6 7) (1 2 3 4 . #1#))
2014-07-10T22:01:11Z drmeister: (marshal:marshal *) -->   (:PCODE 1 (:LIST 1 (:LIST 2 5 6 7) (:LIST 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7)))
2014-07-10T22:01:30Z drmeister: So it doesn't faithfully reproduce the shared tail of the list.
2014-07-10T22:01:59Z Bicyclidine: yeah, that's tricky. lots of stuff in the clhs about how it works for compiled code, too.
2014-07-10T22:03:56Z drmeister: Well, that's good to know that I'm currently stumped by a tricky problem and not a trivial one.
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2014-07-10T22:05:22Z drmeister: Without going through a bunch of serialization packages to find one that handles this properly - does anyone know of one that does flawlessly reproduce the structures that its serializing?
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2014-07-10T22:06:28Z |3b|: looks like it could support it, but doesn't check that specific case properly
2014-07-10T22:07:04Z |3b|: does it share the list if you try without the dot?
2014-07-10T22:09:15Z drmeister: Now that you mention it - the dot isn't really there is it?  It's only there because of the circle detection of the CL printer - isn't it?
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2014-07-10T22:09:45Z fortitude: drmeister: clobber seems to have a structure-preserving serializing thing in it somewhere
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2014-07-10T22:09:54Z |3b|: it is, same as in any list you write with extra ()... (1 . (2 . (3 . (4 . #1#))))
2014-07-10T22:10:57Z Bicyclidine: drmeister: without the dot you'd get a list like ((5 6 7) (1 2 3 4 (5 6 7))). simple.
2014-07-10T22:11:10Z Bicyclidine: that's "like" as in "i don't want to talk about singularity right now"
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2014-07-10T22:11:27Z |3b|: or "it isn't, same as in any list" depending on how you want to interpret the existence of a "dot" once it is READ
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2014-07-10T22:13:27Z oGMo: drmeister: cl-conspack :P
2014-07-10T22:13:56Z oGMo: though in the case of structures/objects you have to define stuff, but that's pretty easy/general
2014-07-10T22:15:26Z oGMo: also you need to use (tracking-refs () ..) around ENCODE to tell it to look for circularity
2014-07-10T22:16:28Z drmeister: Just to be really clear - I mean the dot isn't there as in:   https://gist.github.com/drmeister/c5c94e18209c6c446815
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2014-07-10T22:17:24Z drmeister: I construct *b* with a LIST* and when *print-circle* is nil you don't see the dot and when *print-circle* is "T" you do see the dot but only if you print *c*.
2014-07-10T22:17:35Z Bicyclidine: that uh, didn't help me understand
2014-07-10T22:17:44Z Bicyclidine: Oh. That's just because of how the printer works.
2014-07-10T22:18:03Z Bicyclidine: You could print *b* as (1 2 3 4 . (5 6 7)) also.
2014-07-10T22:18:38Z drmeister: How would I get the printer to print (1 2 3 4 . (5 6 7)) I thought that would always print as (1 2 3 4 5 6 7)
2014-07-10T22:18:59Z Bicyclidine: um, i don't think you actually can. i just mean they're basically the same.
2014-07-10T22:19:00Z drmeister: This are all just linked conses
2014-07-10T22:19:03Z oGMo: you don't, because that would be an arbitrary dot notation
2014-07-10T22:19:11Z Bicyclidine: I mean you can read in (1 2 3 4 . (5 6 7)) though.
2014-07-10T22:19:12Z oGMo: they're _literally_ the same :P
2014-07-10T22:19:14Z Bicyclidine: try it!
2014-07-10T22:19:15Z drmeister: Bicyclidine: Yes - ok, I'm on the same page then.
2014-07-10T22:20:02Z drmeister was about to to check his "crazy pill" prescription to see if he had taken the right ones today.
2014-07-10T22:20:03Z Bicyclidine: and remember your cyclic conses aren't just linear. #1=(#1#) is a fine list
2014-07-10T22:20:58Z Bicyclidine: or #1=(#1# . #1#). endless bullshit fun
2014-07-10T22:21:20Z drmeister: They are very fine lists.
2014-07-10T22:21:35Z drmeister: oGMo: I'll check out cl-conspack now.
2014-07-10T22:24:35Z Enfors: If I have a class called "lander", how do I defmethod a print-object for it? I tried (defmethod print-object ((lander lander)) (print "A lander!")) but that gave me an error on eval.
2014-07-10T22:24:58Z oGMo: that's because print-object takes a stream paramter too
2014-07-10T22:25:04Z oGMo: +e
2014-07-10T22:25:39Z oGMo: the error probably mentioned this :P
2014-07-10T22:26:37Z Enfors: Well, it said it expected (SWANK-TRACE-DIALOG::ENTRY STREAM) which is greek to me...
2014-07-10T22:27:30Z Enfors: So how should I define it? I'm not really familiar with Lisp streams :-/
2014-07-10T22:27:44Z |3b|: clhs print-object
2014-07-10T22:27:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pr_obj.htm
2014-07-10T22:28:01Z Bicyclidine: You misunderstand. print-object takes two arguments. your definition only takes one. it should also take a stream as an argument.
2014-07-10T22:28:35Z Bicyclidine: (defmethod print-object ((lander lander) stream) (print "A lander!" :stream stream))
2014-07-10T22:28:39Z Enfors: Yes, I understand. But I'm not sure what I should do with the stream variable in my function.
2014-07-10T22:28:51Z oGMo: or (format stream "..." ...)
2014-07-10T22:28:52Z Bicyclidine: print your object to it, o'course
2014-07-10T22:28:57Z Enfors: Ah, that's what I need. Thanks to all who responded.
2014-07-10T22:28:57Z oGMo: but, yes, that
2014-07-10T22:29:05Z Bicyclidine: with just (print "foo") you'll always print to the default output stream
2014-07-10T22:29:16Z Bicyclidine: so, for instance (with-output-to-string ... (print some-lander)) wouldn't do what you want
2014-07-10T22:29:34Z Bicyclidine: well, code is wrong, but you get the idea
2014-07-10T22:29:50Z Enfors: Right, thanks.
2014-07-10T22:29:52Z oGMo: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ <- perhaps read through this
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2014-07-10T22:30:36Z drmeister: oGMo: Do you use cl-conspack?  I don't see serialization of CLOS objects or arbitrary structures in the README.
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2014-07-10T22:30:53Z Enfors: oGMo: That's what I'm doing. It mentioned print-object, but not how to use it (at least not so far), so I thought I'd try it myself.
2014-07-10T22:31:38Z oGMo: drmeister: yeah the docs kinda suck .. the tests show everything i think, but you need to (defmethod conspack:encode-object (...) ...) and same for DECODE-OBJECT .. encode-object should return an alist, decode-object takes one
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2014-07-10T22:32:22Z oGMo: the alist is arbitrary, and decode-object just needs to return the object, so you don't have to store anything specifically
2014-07-10T22:32:41Z oGMo: and circularity is handled in the alist automatically
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2014-07-10T22:35:05Z oGMo: drmeister: i'm not sure they have to be, but it's certainly the common case
2014-07-10T22:35:08Z phadthai: in plists they should be, but an alist can hold any type of keys
2014-07-10T22:35:20Z Bicyclidine: oh, i misunderstood
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2014-07-10T22:35:35Z phadthai: or I did, maybe :)
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2014-07-10T22:35:41Z drmeister: Ok, that works for me.
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2014-07-10T22:37:14Z oGMo: conspack itself does encode/expect pairs, so you can't have _just_ arbitrary structure, but you could always have a single pair with an arbitrarily-structured value
2014-07-10T22:37:25Z gabnex: how functional is python compared to common lisp?
2014-07-10T22:37:28Z oGMo: and using nil or t as the key would only be a byte
2014-07-10T22:37:51Z oGMo: gabnex: just as functional. so not at all, unless there's some specific functional library?
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2014-07-10T22:38:04Z drmeister: I'm going to try something crazy with this.   I've written, rewritten, re-re-written serialization code in C++ that I need to work with C++ classes and CL objects.   Getting the internal references, circular data right with a compact representation is really tricky.   I'm going to try and use a CL serialization library to serialize my C++ classes.
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2014-07-10T22:38:17Z Bicyclidine: two centiAPLs less
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2014-07-10T22:38:27Z gabnex: oGMo common lisp is not at all functional?
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2014-07-10T22:39:01Z oGMo: gabnex: no, though you can write in a functional style and there are systems to assist
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2014-07-10T22:40:22Z stanislav: gabnex: I'd say the most advanced functional feature of Lisp is that the functions are first class citizens.  This is not so in Python.  But sometimes Python can be close, e. g. in Python functions can be passed as parameters.
2014-07-10T22:41:15Z oGMo: they aren't (in python)? :o
2014-07-10T22:41:28Z oGMo: but, yes
2014-07-10T22:41:32Z stanislav: at least they almost necessarily must have a name
2014-07-10T22:41:49Z stanislav: Python lambdas are lame
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2014-07-10T22:43:57Z stanislav: well, a Python function can have a name in a local scope and be unnamed in the global scope...
2014-07-10T22:45:01Z stanislav: that's not so straightforward as should be for first-class citizens
2014-07-10T22:45:23Z nisstyre: stanislav: you can do "multiline" lambdas but not lambdas with statements in them, and not with multiple expressions in them
2014-07-10T22:45:31Z nisstyre: that is fine by me
2014-07-10T22:46:07Z stanislav: but is it fine for citizenship? :)
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2014-07-10T22:46:44Z nisstyre: stanislav: it's fine for python
2014-07-10T22:46:59Z nisstyre: stanislav: I'm more concerned over the promiscuous use of assignment
2014-07-10T22:47:03Z stanislav: yeah, I don't contradict, and python is quite handy at that
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2014-07-10T22:48:44Z gabnex: stanislav but wouldn't python have first class functions even without lambda? doesn't it just mean that you can pass and return functions? even C can do this
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2014-07-10T22:49:48Z stanislav: a first class citizen doesn't have to have a name, does it?  imagine you only could use named numbers
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2014-07-10T22:54:05Z copec: first-class functions also suggest the function as a datatype
2014-07-10T22:54:30Z Enfors: If I have a function defined as (defmethod update ((lander lander) fule) ... ) I thought I'd be able to call it with (update lander 10), but apparently not (lander is defined). How do I call my function?
2014-07-10T22:55:19Z Enfors: s/fule/fuel/
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2014-07-10T22:56:32Z Enfors: I can't find it in PCL :-/
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2014-07-10T22:56:46Z stanislav: Enfors: it should be all right; are you sure the variable LANDER has a value where you call the function?
2014-07-10T22:56:53Z ejbs: Enfors: Eh? What error do you get exactly?
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2014-07-10T22:58:56Z Enfors: "There is no applicable function for the generic function"
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2014-07-10T22:59:34Z Enfors: (defgeneric update (lander fuel))
2014-07-10T22:59:51Z stanislav: is LANDER of type LANDER?
2014-07-10T23:00:08Z gabnex: stanislav I can see your point. python did limit lambda for whatever reason
2014-07-10T23:00:14Z Enfors: stanislav: Yes, and it is defined. When I type its name in the REPL, it calls my print-object.
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2014-07-10T23:00:41Z ejbs: Enfors: Can you paste the relevant code at paste.lisp.org?
2014-07-10T23:00:51Z Enfors: One sec...
2014-07-10T23:03:05Z stanislav: gabnex: but I happen to know Haskell a bit and I can assure you Common Lisp is not nearly as functional :)
2014-07-10T23:03:25Z Enfors: ejbs: https://github.com/Enfors/lunar-lander/blob/master/lunar-lander.lisp
2014-07-10T23:03:33Z gabnex: I don't know haskell, or any of the lisps. python and C# are the most functional languages I've used :)
2014-07-10T23:03:33Z Enfors: ejbs: It's like 15 lines.
2014-07-10T23:04:06Z jasom: gabnex: C cannot create functions dynamically, hence no first-class functions.
2014-07-10T23:04:40Z gabnex: ok. but C++ can :D
2014-07-10T23:04:42Z Denommus: stanislav: functions in Python ARE first-class, and you have closures. The problem is that the semantics for anonymous functions is stupid, so you must do a locally-scoped named function if you want a more complex closure
2014-07-10T23:05:43Z stanislav: Denommus: well, let it be.
2014-07-10T23:05:44Z jasom: gabnex: I suppose C++ 11 can, but IIRC you need to manually specify which variables it closes over
2014-07-10T23:06:01Z ejbs: Enfors: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143140 Works fine for me!
2014-07-10T23:06:27Z Denommus: meanwhile, C has function pointers, but it doesn't have closures at all. You have to manually pass env pointers to have something like closures
2014-07-10T23:06:29Z gabnex: jasom yes
2014-07-10T23:06:52Z gabnex: hate to pull wiki but..  "Specifically, this means the language supports passing functions as arguments to other functions, returning them as the values from other functions, and assigning them to variables or storing them in data structures.[1] Some programming language theorists require support for anonymous functions as well."
2014-07-10T23:07:33Z Enfors: ejbs: Hmm? That's strange, I must be doing something wrong. Thanks.
2014-07-10T23:07:37Z gabnex: so there doesn't seem to be an agreement on what "first class functions" means
2014-07-10T23:08:09Z stanislav: gabnex: no wonder, I'd say that's quite boring :D
2014-07-10T23:08:24Z Denommus: gabnex: I'd say it should be possible to have closures :P
2014-07-10T23:09:26Z stanislav: anyway, in Lisp you can have something like functions returning functions returning closures and that's nice
2014-07-10T23:09:34Z jasom: gabnex: I'd say at minimum you need to be able to dynamically create functions; historically the algol family hasn't allowed that.
2014-07-10T23:09:36Z Enfors: ejbs: Oh, it works now, after I compiled the file. I must have not evaluated something after I changed it. Thanks :-)
2014-07-10T23:10:02Z stanislav: and you can pass functions as arguments and thus have more abstraction
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2014-07-10T23:10:17Z stanislav: but don't expect Lisp to be more functional
2014-07-10T23:10:32Z Enfors: Bed time! See you guys tomorrow, and thanks for all the help today.
2014-07-10T23:10:45Z stanislav: Enfors: good night!
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2014-07-10T23:12:11Z Denommus: stanislav: those are high-order functions :-D
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2014-07-10T23:15:22Z stanislav: and stuff like "avoid unnecessary side effects", "avoid unnecessary global state", "separate computations and IO" etc. is just common sense and can be applied to any language
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2014-07-10T23:15:41Z ejbs: Enfors: Good to hear that you got it working :)
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2014-07-10T23:19:03Z copec: I'm one step above a total CL newb, but one thing that I like is that you can arbitrarily choose any programming style that you like
2014-07-10T23:19:16Z Denommus: stanislav: I dare you to try to program in C by avoiding side-effects and mutability :P
2014-07-10T23:19:46Z Denommus: copec: that is either good or bad, depending on your point of view :-)
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2014-07-10T23:24:11Z copec: I think trying to force a certain style in the language results in it needing to be revised often.  I believe most of the great modern features in CL are because it had that flexibility to re-factor the semantics of something that doesn't quite fit
2014-07-10T23:24:49Z copec: Doesn't quite fit in the intents of the language constructs
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2014-07-10T23:26:42Z copec: For example, I haven't encountered a problem so far that I couldn't solve in C, but with some of them would be hacks and abusing the intended semantics of C and also half way towards greenspun's tenth rule or whatnot
2014-07-10T23:27:29Z stanislav: you can even write Linux kernel in C
2014-07-10T23:27:49Z Denommus: lots of GNU tools were written in C, too
2014-07-10T23:28:59Z copec: Sure, but I bet there is a ton of hacky code in there
2014-07-10T23:31:10Z copec: That could be looked at as a cool hack, certainly...but also that the language simply doesn't have the expressiveness necessary to do it clean
2014-07-10T23:31:28Z Denommus: copec: surely
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2014-07-10T23:31:47Z Denommus: but then, if you dig deep enough, every language has expressiveness limitations. Even CL
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2014-07-10T23:34:44Z copec: That's true, but I haven't reached it.
2014-07-10T23:34:53Z copec: which isn't really saying much
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2014-07-10T23:47:47Z Denommus: copec: the package system is a bit too low-level, compared to, say, SML's or OCaml's modules
2014-07-10T23:48:01Z Denommus: copec: but I guess ASDF helps to compensate for that
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2014-07-11T00:04:28Z drmeister: I'm in for a world of hurt I can see -  I'm trying to get ASDF running on my system for the first time.
2014-07-11T00:05:01Z drmeister: It seems to require an older version of ASDF installed to use ASDF 3 - is that the case?
2014-07-11T00:06:36Z Denommus: drmeister: I don't know. I just installed quicklisp. After that I cloned the latest asdf to .local/share/common-lisp/source/asdf/ , checked into the latest stable and ran make
2014-07-11T00:06:47Z drmeister: (load "asdf.lisp") built from http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/#downloads   on a system that's never seen ASDF didn't work the first try :-(
2014-07-11T00:07:35Z Denommus: drmeister: I'd install quicklisp before anything :P
2014-07-11T00:08:59Z Bike: drmeister: asdf needs implementation support.
2014-07-11T00:09:12Z drmeister: I thought quicklisp depends on asdf - as in:   "ASDF will not download missing software components for you. For that, you want Quicklisp, that builds upon ASDF, "
2014-07-11T00:09:25Z Bike: that's right.
2014-07-11T00:09:39Z drmeister: Bike: And now we find out how faithfully I've reproduced ECL.
2014-07-11T00:10:08Z drmeister: It is looking for an existing package called "ASDF".
2014-07-11T00:10:24Z Bike: probably you'll need to edit asdf to include a lot more #+drmeisters-cool-lisp
2014-07-11T00:11:01Z Bike: i haven't a clue how to install asdf, though, since all the implementations come with one
2014-07-11T00:11:04Z drmeister: Well - I left in #+ecl in the vain hope that I could fool all of the programs all of the time.
2014-07-11T00:11:16Z Bike: you have :ecl in *features*, you mean?
2014-07-11T00:12:16Z drmeister: Yup.  *features* ->   (:FORMATTER :BRCL-BOOT :COMPILE-MCJIT :DEBUG-COMPILER :CLASP :ECL :BRCL :BRCL-BOOT :COMPILE-MCJIT :DEBUG-COMPILER :CLASP :ECL :BRCL :INTERACTIVE :USE-BOEHM :USE-SHARP-EQUAL-HASH-TABLES :RELEASE-BUILD :VARARGS :CLASP :EMACS-INFERIOR-LISP :TARGET-OS-DARWIN :ADDRESS-MODEL-64 :BRCL)
2014-07-11T00:12:26Z Bike: glancing at asdf.lisp, it should do fine with no asdf extant
2014-07-11T00:12:28Z drmeister needs to do some cleanup.
2014-07-11T00:12:39Z Bike: what error are you getting, exactly?
2014-07-11T00:12:42Z Denommus: Bike: just download it to ~/.local/share/common-lisp/asdf :P
2014-07-11T00:13:01Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/36805bf7730f811d83e7
2014-07-11T00:13:14Z Denommus: I forgot "source"
2014-07-11T00:13:18Z drmeister: It's failing because existing-version is nil.
2014-07-11T00:13:24Z Bike: that's not an error?
2014-07-11T00:13:37Z Bike: that's just checking whether it's upgrading from an existing asdf or going it alone.
2014-07-11T00:14:47Z Bike: and if there is an existing asdf all it does is rename the old package.
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2014-07-11T00:16:22Z drmeister: Ok, never mind - my subseq is failing because it doesn't like having a nil first argument.     Mine:  (subseq nil 0 nil) -> fail    SBCL: (subseq nil 0 nil) -> nil.
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2014-07-11T00:17:28Z Bike: failing on an empty list is wrong.
2014-07-11T00:17:30Z drmeister: It's that kind of non-canonical behavior that is going to drive me nuts.
2014-07-11T00:18:30Z Bike: subseq is defined to work on "proper sequences", which include "proper lists", and the definition of "proper list" actually explicitly says nil is one. so your implementation of subseq is wrong.
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2014-07-11T00:21:44Z Denommus: I wonder if it would be possible to do something like ASDF, but for generic dependency solving
2014-07-11T00:21:53Z drmeister: So the only valid second and third arguments of subseq is 0 and nil as in (subseq nil 0 nil) - right?    If the first argument is nil then I throw an error if the second and third aren't 0 and nil.
2014-07-11T00:22:01Z Denommus: the concept of "system" is more useful than Makefile's lack of concept of levels of dependency
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2014-07-11T00:23:37Z Bike: i'm not sure why you'd treat nil specially, but yeah, i think so. except you can do (subseq nil 0 0) of course.
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2014-07-11T00:29:36Z drmeister: Bike: It's an issue that comes up all the time with my approach of using C++.    I use virtual functions and I can dereference a CONS but not NIL.
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2014-07-11T00:30:04Z drmeister: So when I use virtual functions I have to explicitly test for and dispatch on NIL.
2014-07-11T00:30:15Z Bike: you can write subseq in lisp, though...
2014-07-11T00:30:59Z drmeister: Yeah but it's in C++.
2014-07-11T00:32:05Z drmeister: When I was bootstrapping all the time I implemented some functions in C++ so I wouldn't go crazy waiting for the interpreter to compile everything.
2014-07-11T00:32:38Z drmeister: Sometimes it bites me in the butt because NIL is a corner-case.
2014-07-11T00:33:13Z drmeister: I could replace the subseq function with a C++ implementation once the compiler starts up - I'll check that.
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2014-07-11T00:33:50Z Bike: if your list functions stop working on empty lists you're going to have problems.
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2014-07-11T00:41:39Z drmeister: I know, I know.
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2014-07-11T00:44:23Z drmeister: Right - I implemented it in C++ because ECL implements it in C.   Monkey see, monkey do.
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2014-07-11T00:47:43Z drmeister: If the ECL Common Lisp source doesn't provide the function because it's in "C" I either had to implement it in C++ or steal it from SICL or SBCL.  99% of the time I implemented it in C++.  Where ECL dispatches with chained if/else if... I have C++ virtual functions.   The one downside - NIL doesn't dispatch.    It's just another consequence of the "Billion Dollar Mistake".
2014-07-11T00:48:53Z drmeister shakes his fist at Tony Hoare.
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2014-07-11T00:54:48Z Denommus: I wonder when people will begin making Common Lisp implementations in Rust
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2014-07-11T01:18:08Z drmeister: Hmm, what's the deal with the second argument of RENAME-PACKAGE being a package designator?   It's undefined behavior if it's an existing package.   I think it should be a string designator.
2014-07-11T01:18:58Z pjb: Well, this is interesting.
2014-07-11T01:19:15Z pjb: You know that I have a rather strict interpretation of CLHS.
2014-07-11T01:19:37Z pjb: For example, I consider that "The consequences are undefined if new-name or any new-nickname conflicts with any existing package names." means that (rename-package p p) coudl signal an error.
2014-07-11T01:20:03Z pjb: Therefore, when I add a nickname to a package, I first rename it to a different name, before using (rename-package temp-name old-name new-nicknames).
2014-07-11T01:21:03Z pjb: But it looks like expecting the new name to be a package designator is designed to allow (rename-package p p new-nicknames) without "undefined consequences", ie. that in  (rename-package p p new-nicknames), there's no conflict.
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2014-07-11T01:25:49Z drmeister: But if I treat the second argument as a "package designator" only in the cases (rename-package p p) does the package designated by the second argument exist.   If I coerce the second argument to a package that doesn't exist my code will throw an error.
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2014-07-11T01:26:39Z drmeister: But if I go with my interpretation that it should be coerced to a string then I don't think (rename-package p p) will work on my system.
2014-07-11T01:27:14Z pjb: drmeister: it seems the keyword in this specification is "conflict".  If the package designated by old and new is the same, no renaming occurs, only the nicknames are changed.
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2014-07-11T02:33:16Z joe-w-bimedina: I made a gist here: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/9bac68e40a9b3551b8ea and I was hoping someone could take a look at it for me, I could use help memory managing foreign-alloc inside a function i created
2014-07-11T02:33:16Z minion: joe-w-bimedina, memo from pjb: you could use import, but it could be objected, because it makes your sources less declarative: now we need a lisp interpreter to load and evaluate your source to be able to assign semantics to it.  With a defpackage setting once for all the symbols, it's easier to understand what's happening.
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2014-07-11T02:34:12Z joe-w-bimedina: holy crap I didn't make a post all day and the second I hit enter you sent me that message, what a coincidence:)
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2014-07-11T02:34:29Z pjb: minion is like that.
2014-07-11T02:34:45Z joe-w-bimedina: that was trippy
2014-07-11T02:35:49Z drmeister: Ok:   (RENAME-PACKAGE :test :test '(:nick))   (RENAME-PACKAGE :test :test '(:nack)) works.
2014-07-11T02:36:10Z joe-w-bimedina: minion: how could I provide that lisp interpreter, and what is import referring to
2014-07-11T02:36:10Z minion: lisp is the glue that binds the variables together
2014-07-11T02:36:45Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: it's referencing to putting back cl:read into your package after you've shadowed it.
2014-07-11T02:37:27Z joe-w-bimedina: ok great..I got that taken care of save for a small style warning(redefinition)
2014-07-11T02:37:42Z drmeister: And (RENAME-PACKAGE :foo :bar) works.
2014-07-11T02:37:46Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: try: (defpackage :p (:use :cl)) (shadow 'read) (defun read () 'yoyo) (defparameter *r* (function read)) (import 'cl:read) (list (read) (funcall *r*)) hello
2014-07-11T02:38:05Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: of course, you wouldn't do that in source files.
2014-07-11T02:38:27Z pjb: because you would have to execute the file, to udnerstand what  (defparameter *r* (function read)) and (funcall *r*) mean.
2014-07-11T02:39:31Z joe-w-bimedina: I got 4 style warnings from the whole thing last night, what is the hello, wouldn't that be undefined...I'll try it
2014-07-11T02:39:57Z pjb: That would be a symbol read by the previous form. You would type it interactively.
2014-07-11T02:40:23Z joe-w-bimedina: so do i put that in my package.lisp?
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2014-07-11T02:40:43Z pjb: no.
2014-07-11T02:40:52Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: this is an example of what you should not do!
2014-07-11T02:41:04Z pjb: You asked to do something that should not be done.
2014-07-11T02:42:48Z joe-w-bimedina: its only for me while in-package, unless you export it you won't even see it,  It seems safe so far, no bugs..etc, the functions play nicely,  what are the reasons I shouldn't
2014-07-11T02:43:07Z pjb: because you would have to execute the file, to udnerstand what  (defparameter *r* (function read)) and (funcall *r*) mean.
2014-07-11T02:43:27Z joe-w-bimedina: execute which file?
2014-07-11T02:43:33Z joe-w-bimedina: any .lisp?
2014-07-11T02:43:35Z pjb: The source file containing it.
2014-07-11T02:43:37Z pjb: yes any .lisp.
2014-07-11T02:43:42Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec
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2014-07-11T02:45:39Z Guthur: Is there a library that does a reasonable job of doing s-exp <-> xml
2014-07-11T02:45:52Z pjb: I use xmls
2014-07-11T02:45:58Z joe-w-bimedina: I running it I get..................IMPORT COMMON-LISP:READ causes name-conflicts in
2014-07-11T02:45:58Z joe-w-bimedina: #<PACKAGE "LISP-CV"> between the following symbols:
2014-07-11T02:45:58Z joe-w-bimedina:   COMMON-LISP:READ, LISP-CV:READ
2014-07-11T02:45:58Z joe-w-bimedina:    [Condition of type SB-EXT:NAME-CONFLICT]
2014-07-11T02:46:27Z pjb: Yes, I forgot a (unintern 'read) before (import 'cl:read).
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2014-07-11T02:46:48Z Guthur: thanks pjb, will check it out
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2014-07-11T02:47:30Z joe-w-bimedina: I got a Lock on package COMMON-LISP violated when defining READ as a
2014-07-11T02:47:30Z joe-w-bimedina: function while in package LISP-CV.
2014-07-11T02:47:45Z pjb: that's because you didn't evaluate the shadow.
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2014-07-11T02:48:20Z joe-w-bimedina: the helloI just ran this exactly: (defpackage :p (:use :cl)) (shadow 'read) (defun read () 'yoyo) (defparameter *r* (function read)) (unintern 'read) (import 'cl:read) (list (read) (funcall *r*))
2014-07-11T02:48:44Z joe-w-bimedina: with M-X slime-compile-load..
2014-07-11T02:49:18Z pjb: Oops, it's missing a (in-package :p) after defpackage.
2014-07-11T02:49:32Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec
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2014-07-11T02:51:02Z joe-w-bimedina: Lock on package COMMON-LISP violated when defining
2014-07-11T02:51:02Z joe-w-bimedina: COMMON-LISP:READ as a function while in package P.
2014-07-11T02:52:42Z joe-w-bimedina: still not understanding the point, I don't expect somone to define another package, inside my package
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2014-07-11T02:53:33Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: http://paste.lisp.org/+32G7
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2014-07-11T02:54:48Z pjb: The point is that to explain the result you get, you have to evaluate the file.  If you remove one form, or change the order, it will break.
2014-07-11T02:55:17Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec
2014-07-11T02:57:36Z joe-w-bimedina: should I add it to my .asd file, or just evaluate it with M-x slime-compile-load file while I am in my lisp-cv package
2014-07-11T02:57:44Z pjb: On the other hand, http://paste.lisp.org/+32G7/1 the package q and r are easier to explain.  You don't need to evaluate them, to know that the list calls cl:read and q-read or r:read (which is different from cl:read).
2014-07-11T02:58:30Z joe-w-bimedina: there is no package q
2014-07-11T02:59:17Z pjb: There is, in the annotation.
2014-07-11T02:59:20Z pjb: "Q" is its name.
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2014-07-11T02:59:29Z pjb: It's defined before the package named "R".
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2014-07-11T03:00:38Z joe-w-bimedina: now i see it
2014-07-11T03:00:57Z joe-w-bimedina: add it to .asd?
2014-07-11T03:01:14Z pjb: How is it relevant?
2014-07-11T03:02:04Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec
2014-07-11T03:02:25Z joe-w-bimedina:  caught 1 fatal ERROR condition
2014-07-11T03:03:37Z joe-w-bimedina: so is the point if you define a package while inside my package the code will break
2014-07-11T03:04:24Z pjb: No.
2014-07-11T03:04:45Z pjb: The point is that it makes your sources less declarative: now we need a lisp interpreter to load and evaluate your source to be able to assign semantics to it.  With a defpackage setting once for all the symbols, it's easier to understand what's happening.
2014-07-11T03:05:29Z pjb: For example, imagine you want to write a program to build the .asd file automatically from a bunch of .lisp source files.
2014-07-11T03:06:06Z pjb: If you declare all package dependencies in the defpackage forms, then you can easily build the dependency graph between the files (that contain in-package forms).
2014-07-11T03:07:05Z pjb: But if you use export, import, etc, at compilation time or at run time, then you need to execute the program to know the dependencies. Also you will easily set up circular depdencies with export/import, there fore making it impossible to generate a .asd.
2014-07-11T03:08:02Z joe-w-bimedina: i didnt use import but did use export
2014-07-11T03:08:19Z joe-w-bimedina: I do use defpackage if that is what your asking
2014-07-11T03:08:42Z pjb: export has the same problem.
2014-07-11T03:09:15Z pjb: You asked something yesterday that would require import.  But since it's not a good idea to use import, it's not a good idea to ask what you asked.
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2014-07-11T03:11:15Z joe-w-bimedina: it is only a few functions, after I see what i am going to do about a generator, so far a python one is getting built, I can make the appropriate adjustments..
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2014-07-11T03:20:16Z slyrus: PuercoPop: around?
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2014-07-11T03:23:13Z drmeister: This may be way too specific - but is anyone familiar with the details of ECL support in ASDF?
2014-07-11T03:25:06Z Bike: I'm not. What's the new problem?
2014-07-11T03:26:28Z drmeister: Details, details, details:   Check this out:   https://gist.github.com/drmeister/6c1abf2f0856524ca1c1
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2014-07-11T03:27:40Z Bike: Aight.
2014-07-11T03:27:40Z drmeister: On line 918 of asdf.lisp it does this feature test for ecl.  Now I don't have a byte-compiler.   I have a native code compiler that is available all the time.   So I'm saying: use-ecl-byte-compiler-p is T all the time.
2014-07-11T03:27:49Z Bike: sure.
2014-07-11T03:28:01Z drmeister: Great - thanks for checking that out.
2014-07-11T03:30:34Z drmeister: Sure - for instance I just made this change in common-lisp.lisp:    https://gist.github.com/drmeister/6c1abf2f0856524ca1c1
2014-07-11T03:30:39Z drmeister: Whoops
2014-07-11T03:30:47Z zRecursive: drmeister: Does ECL use /dev/urandom to set random seed on linux ?
2014-07-11T03:32:38Z drmeister: zRecursive: I don't know the answer to that.  I don't use /dev/urandom.   Will ASDF require that?
2014-07-11T03:33:01Z zRecursive: no
2014-07-11T03:33:31Z Bike: it looks like asdf uses random in a few places, but nowhere that it'd exactly need a csprng.
2014-07-11T03:34:01Z zRecursive: what's csprng?'
2014-07-11T03:34:50Z zRecursive: cs+PRNG
2014-07-11T03:37:03Z Bike: cryptographically secure pseudo random number generator
2014-07-11T03:38:22Z zRecursive: great
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2014-07-11T04:06:19Z drmeister: What fun this is - apparently if I mimic ECL I need to understand and mimic ECL's flaws as well: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/246e9fa46a93ae46adbe
2014-07-11T04:06:54Z Bike: i think you'd be better off putting an and clasp in there.
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2014-07-11T04:10:02Z Zhivago: Bug for bug compatibility is the best compatibility -- microsoft led the way here.
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2014-07-11T04:10:24Z drmeister: Sorry, I should be more careful - I shouldn't call anything a flaw when I don't know what is going on.  I was reacting the the "however, for ECL, we need this hammer." and "fails for setf functions on ecl" comments.
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2014-07-11T04:17:01Z Bike: yeah. i mean you'd be better off letting (notinline (setf ...)) work.
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2014-07-11T04:59:56Z joe-w-bimedina: I have a whole list of strings e.g ("s1" "s2" "s3" "s4" "s5"...) how do I convert "s1" "s2" "s3" etc into setfable places, so I can (setf (nth 0 list) 22)  and retrieve the value 22 by running (nth 0 list)
2014-07-11T05:02:06Z Zhivago: Um, why do you think they're not setf-able places?
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2014-07-11T05:04:05Z joe-w-bimedina: when i run (setf (nth 0 list) 22) the output is 22 but when I run:  (nth 0 list) I get back "s1"
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2014-07-11T05:05:10Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: then you're doing something wrong
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2014-07-11T05:10:34Z joe-w-bimedina: ok now it works , don't know what it was,  thanks for affirming I could setf to those places
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2014-07-11T05:13:20Z Zhivago: Are the lists literal lists?
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2014-07-11T05:13:59Z joe-w-bimedina: oh I got past that, still don't know what it was though
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2014-07-11T05:14:55Z joe-w-bimedina: thannk for asking though
2014-07-11T05:14:56Z Zhivago: Yeah, you seem to have trouble with answering simple questions.
2014-07-11T05:16:08Z joe-w-bimedina: oh I can answer, I made them with concatenate and push, concatenated s and "n" in a dotimes and then pushed to a list
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2014-07-11T05:19:24Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry I didnt answer I didn't want to waste your time
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2014-07-11T05:34:33Z Zhivago: Ok, then that should be fine.
2014-07-11T05:34:50Z Zhivago: The tricky point is that modifying something like '(a b c) has undefined behaviour.
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2014-07-11T05:35:42Z zRecursive: You can modify (list a b c) though
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2014-07-11T05:37:08Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks, yeah I'm working through this http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-portable-pathname-library.html I can sort pictures by face size, have to iterate through a directory and make a list of all the pictures in it,  I got it though
2014-07-11T05:37:40Z joe-w-bimedina: ***thanks, yeah I'm working through this http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-portable-pathname-library.html so I can write program to sort pictures by face size, have to iterate through a directory and make a list of all the pictures in it,  I got it though
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2014-07-11T05:42:50Z average: is there a LISP pre-processor for C++ ? I mean replacing C's preprocessor with LISP
2014-07-11T05:43:03Z average: sorry let me rephrase
2014-07-11T05:43:08Z Zhivago: That wouldn't make much sense.
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2014-07-11T05:43:34Z average: I am curious if anyone tried to somehow replace C's preprocessor with LISP and what happened afterwards. Or if there is such a thing out there
2014-07-11T05:43:43Z Zhivago: What might make sense is writing a C->AST transform, then an AST rewrite, then an AST->C transform.
2014-07-11T05:43:51Z average: for example this article advocates using C as C's preprocessor http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp.html
2014-07-11T05:44:20Z average: I find that idea interesting
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2014-07-11T05:44:27Z average: the preprocessor seems to be quite weak IMHO
2014-07-11T05:45:28Z Bike: https://github.com/spencertipping/cpp-template-lisp does exist, because i don't know
2014-07-11T05:45:35Z pjb: average: there's elpp, which can be used for that.  It could be translated to CL.
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2014-07-11T05:46:44Z average: pjb: oh very interesting
2014-07-11T05:46:48Z average: I'll have a look, thanks
2014-07-11T05:46:49Z pjb: elpp -> http://paste.lisp.org/+32G8
2014-07-11T05:47:30Z pjb: average: recently, somebody write a pre-processor to define C macros in a C-like language, that was nice enough.
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2014-07-11T05:49:09Z pjb: I don't have a link at hand. I saw that from HN, IIRC.
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2014-07-11T05:49:55Z PuercoPop: slyrus: around now
2014-07-11T05:50:10Z pjb: average: see also https://www.informatimago.com/articles/life-saver.html
2014-07-11T05:50:27Z pjb: openc++ would need an upgrade to recent gcc.
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2014-07-11T05:53:45Z joe-w-bimedina: I would like to make a list of all files in a directory(recursively) and do it easy with like one function...is cl-fad the way to go,  I would like the list to be of full pathnames like "/home/user/a.txt" ".home/user/b.txt". and it would need to be implementation independent
2014-07-11T05:54:20Z average: pjb: thanks
2014-07-11T05:54:39Z PuercoPop: joe-w-bimedina: look into uiop instead
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2014-07-11T05:56:42Z joe-w-bimedina: I checked this link and there is no directory listing function: http://quickdocs.org/uiop/api
2014-07-11T06:02:33Z joe-w-bimedina: is there a tutorial/examples of how to use uiop
2014-07-11T06:02:55Z PuercoPop: yeah it is because uiop defines a new macro for packages i think, or maybe the with upgradability macros. Anyhow here is the overview: http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=projects/asdf/asdf.git;a=blob;f=uiop/README
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2014-07-11T06:03:47Z PuercoPop: uiop/filesystem in particular
2014-07-11T06:04:32Z joe-w-bimedina: where are the functions related to filesystem
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2014-07-11T06:07:27Z PuercoPop: in the package uiop/filesystem, you can list them at the repl with (do-external-symbols (s 'uiop/filesystem) (format t "~A~%" s))
2014-07-11T06:08:42Z joe-w-bimedina: can you show me an example of how I recursively list all files in a directory CV> (uiop:directory* "/home/w/") only lists (#P"/home/w/")
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2014-07-11T06:10:42Z PuercoPop: joe-w-bimedina: use directory-files
2014-07-11T06:11:37Z PuercoPop: and subdirectories
2014-07-11T06:12:10Z joe-w-bimedina: ok I was new to new packages but if the doc. is lacking, just read the source, ok thanks for helping me get into the swing
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2014-07-11T06:32:31Z drmeister: How is nil handled when the reader is reading code into some arbitrary package?
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2014-07-11T06:33:16Z drmeister: I just discovered a bug when reading "asdf.lisp" where it's in the :uiop/utility package and it read a NIL and created uiop/utility::NIL - which is bad.
2014-07-11T06:33:58Z Bike: should be the same as any other symbol. () will be CL:NIL regardless, though
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2014-07-11T06:37:35Z Fare: I bet the issue is in define-package
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2014-07-11T06:42:31Z drmeister: I can make two nils:  https://gist.github.com/drmeister/365407cb481d3d180cb1
2014-07-11T06:43:02Z drmeister: And this is with make-package
2014-07-11T06:43:42Z Bike: well yes, that's how symbols work, it's fine
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2014-07-11T06:44:31Z Bike: though i'd expect (core:boundp 'nil)'s return value to display as CL:NIL there.
2014-07-11T06:45:29Z Fare: there must be a bug in define-package
2014-07-11T06:45:35Z drmeister: That might be my write-object is doing a special test for nil and printing "NIL" no matter what package is current.
2014-07-11T06:45:46Z Fare: just because it works on ~15 implementations doesn't mean it works on clasp
2014-07-11T06:45:49Z drmeister: Fare: You mean defpackage?
2014-07-11T06:45:51Z Bike: i have no idea why you would special case that.
2014-07-11T06:46:00Z Fare: I mean uiop/package:define-package
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2014-07-11T06:46:08Z Fare: the very first thing being defined by uiop
2014-07-11T06:46:29Z Fare: a variant of defpackage that "just works" in the context of hot-upgrade
2014-07-11T06:47:03Z drmeister: Fare: Got it - I'm a little slow.
2014-07-11T06:47:05Z Fare: when defpackage can blow dragons out of your nose in when the package definition has changed
2014-07-11T06:47:47Z Fare: as you may or not know, hot upgrade was a big topic for ASDF 2 and ASDF 3
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2014-07-11T06:49:24Z Fare: and so, when I wrote ASDF 3, and ended up cutting the file in parts quick-build style, one of the first things to do was to write define-package
2014-07-11T06:49:54Z Fare: and believe me, making it work on clisp, ecl, ccl and more --- was hell
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2014-07-11T06:50:07Z drmeister: I believe.
2014-07-11T06:50:12Z drmeister: :-)
2014-07-11T06:50:37Z Fare: though, surprisingly enough, it mostly worked portably, which was a remarkable tribute to the clhs
2014-07-11T06:51:48Z Fare: the package functionality is defined in a way that is constrained enough that implementations are mostly compatible... until they do "clever" fasl optimizations, like ECL, CLISP, GCL did
2014-07-11T06:51:58Z Fare: and I suppose CLASP may do, after ECL
2014-07-11T06:52:43Z Fare: so it might be that the code works fine in one context, but is defeated by file-compilation in a different way
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2014-07-11T06:53:34Z drmeister: I see - you have that (:use) in there:   https://gist.github.com/drmeister/bddb3f5db688ff5fb423
2014-07-11T06:53:50Z drmeister: You mentioned that earlier or in the other discussion.
2014-07-11T06:54:06Z Fare:        #+(or ecl gcl mkcl) (defpackage ,package (:use))
2014-07-11T06:54:57Z Fare: your file compiler might be saying "aha, let's compile based on that definition!" and then find itself defeated when said definition is modified by ensure-package
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2014-07-11T06:55:54Z Fare: and so even though ensure-package works correctly and is immediately called in an eval-when, the file-compiler might be somehow shielded from that
2014-07-11T06:56:04Z Fare: just one hypothesis
2014-07-11T06:56:14Z Reihar: Hi
2014-07-11T06:56:20Z Fare: what if you load asdf.lisp from source without file-compiling, does that work?
2014-07-11T06:56:48Z drmeister: I'm not file-compiling - this is loading each S-exp and compiling with COMPILE.
2014-07-11T06:57:03Z Fare: how do you handle eval-when ?
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2014-07-11T06:57:34Z drmeister: I think it's looking for :execute
2014-07-11T06:57:41Z Fare: especially eval-when inside a progn and/or macro expansion
2014-07-11T06:57:49Z Fare: I always include the :execute close
2014-07-11T06:58:09Z Fare: I once wrote that "EVAL-WHEN considered harmful to your sanity" post
2014-07-11T06:58:30Z drmeister: I once read that "EVAL-WHEN considered harmful..." post.   Several times.
2014-07-11T06:58:42Z Fare: the eval-when explanation I wished someone had told me when I started to learn about CL
2014-07-11T06:59:06Z drmeister: Everything I know about eval-when I learned from that post.    So you are responsible for this :-)
2014-07-11T06:59:40Z drmeister: Ok.  What do you recommend with this NIL thing - I'm still out to lunch as to what the underlying problem is.
2014-07-11T06:59:58Z drmeister: Other than I have an extra nil.
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2014-07-11T07:01:11Z Fare: (describe 'uiop/common-lisp::nil)
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2014-07-11T07:03:22Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/fa0f75671d8d3280c1a7
2014-07-11T07:03:38Z drmeister: I guess DESCRIBE works somewhat.
2014-07-11T07:04:07Z drmeister: I'll be jiggered.
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2014-07-11T07:12:20Z drmeister: And I'm happy to change my implementation to work better with ASDF - I consider any differences between what clasp does and the CLHS says to be a bug in clasp.
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2014-07-11T07:19:16Z drmeister: When I change NIL to CL:NIL in asdf.lisp it gets past that problem and goes on to another problem that I haven't really looked at yet.
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2014-07-11T07:27:39Z Reihar: I'm thinking about getting into lisp but there are a lot of language and documentation so I don't know where to start. Any tips?
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2014-07-11T07:31:30Z samebchase: Reihar: see http://articulate-lisp.com/
2014-07-11T07:31:55Z samebchase: PCL is a good book to learn from.
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2014-07-11T07:34:53Z moore33: I like that "Land of Lisp" looks like an underground comic book from the 60s.
2014-07-11T07:35:42Z joe-w-bimedina: second LOL, its easy to understand
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2014-07-11T08:06:26Z Reihar: Thanks for the links.
2014-07-11T08:06:31Z Reihar: samebchase: PCL?
2014-07-11T08:07:07Z joe-w-bimedina: Practical Common Lisp
2014-07-11T08:07:24Z edgar-rft: PCL = http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
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2014-07-11T08:09:31Z edgar-rft: the "absolute beginners" guide is: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
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2014-07-11T08:13:17Z Reihar: Lots of links \o/
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2014-07-11T08:14:04Z Reihar: Is it "absolute beginners" because it's frequently recommended?
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2014-07-11T08:17:26Z Reihar: Or is it highly regarded as a classic?
2014-07-11T08:17:42Z Cymew: It's not expecting you to know any programming
2014-07-11T08:18:15Z stassats: it's not really a classic, but it explains things very thoroughly
2014-07-11T08:18:24Z Cymew: Very.
2014-07-11T08:18:37Z stassats: which may be too much if you are experienced
2014-07-11T08:18:42Z Lebbe: I loved "Land of Lisp" comic on their web-page, thank you guys :)
2014-07-11T08:18:53Z Cymew: It you want to brush up on the basics it's good, I think.
2014-07-11T08:19:30Z Cymew: But, it's lot of thing peole who have been programming knows of already
2014-07-11T08:19:43Z Cymew: I liked its explanation of recursion, for example.
2014-07-11T08:19:59Z Cymew: If you feel you know all those things PCL is better
2014-07-11T08:20:16Z Cymew: Land of Lisp is also good, and funny
2014-07-11T08:20:23Z madnificent: who owns http://learnlispthehardway.org/, it's down
2014-07-11T08:20:55Z Reihar: Oh I see.
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2014-07-11T08:22:30Z Cymew: I usually grab Touretzky and work through some examples when I have not used lisp in a few months, to remember how things work. Others might differ.
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2014-07-11T08:22:56Z stassats: "not used lisp in a few months" there's your problem
2014-07-11T08:22:57Z Lebbe: my introductory book to lisp was SICP
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2014-07-11T08:23:22Z madnificent: Cymew: I don't need it, but someone mentioned it here.  It's not the best advertising :-)
2014-07-11T08:24:22Z Lebbe: also that book who introduces common lisp by making an mp3 streamer or what it was, I never read it through though
2014-07-11T08:24:46Z Lebbe: way too little academical
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2014-07-11T08:26:43Z madnificent: Lebbe: are you talking about practical common lisp?  it did something with mp3s, not exactly a streamer though
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2014-07-11T08:31:29Z Reihar: I'm wondering, what do you think of other dialects of lisp?
2014-07-11T08:31:40Z Lebbe: madnificent: yes! perhaps not a streamer. but a media server of some kind?
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2014-07-11T08:32:34Z stassats: Reihar: nothing good
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2014-07-11T08:32:59Z stassats: scheme is tolerable
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2014-07-11T08:36:52Z Reihar: Will mentionning emacs lisp get me killed?
2014-07-11T08:37:14Z Lebbe: famous last words
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2014-07-11T08:38:23Z edgar-rft: probably not killed, but #emacs people know elisp better
2014-07-11T08:38:24Z madnificent: Reihar: some may be theoretically cleaner, defined with less concepts, but the sheer beauty of some of the less common features in common lisp is so pretty that it'd be a shame to let them go to waste.  It seems to me that Common Lisp struck a nice balance in letting users get started with a relatively small core of knowledge. Admittedly, this core is rather different (especially in naming) from what you're accustomed to if 
2014-07-11T08:38:24Z madnificent: from a traditional world.
2014-07-11T08:41:02Z hitecnologys: What's the name of a variable holding maximum possible fixnum, again?
2014-07-11T08:41:22Z edgar-rft: most-positive-fixnum
2014-07-11T08:41:38Z hitecnologys: edgar-rft: oh, yes, thanks.
2014-07-11T08:42:00Z hitecnologys: Mmm... most-positive-bignum...
2014-07-11T08:43:19Z edgar-rft: fixnum or bignum?
2014-07-11T08:43:24Z Reihar: I'm not especially looking for a special dialect of lisp. I would just like to learn something relatively common that leave possibilities open, and common lisp seems like the right choice in that regard.
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2014-07-11T08:44:21Z stassats: hitecnologys: most-negative-fixnum
2014-07-11T08:45:37Z hitecnologys: edgar-rft: I was joking. I've just remembered that last time I asked such question I expressed it wrong (most positive number), got wrong answer (most-positive-bignum or something) but, eventaully, got it right (most-positive-fixnum).  Most mositive bignum would consume all available memory.
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2014-07-11T08:46:10Z stassats: hitecnologys: http://www.jwz.org/blog/2008/03/most-positive-bignum/
2014-07-11T08:47:44Z stassats: it says positive is the "largest", but the magnitude of most-negative-fixnum is usually more by one
2014-07-11T08:49:24Z moore33: stassats: I was going to say that most-positive-bignum does make sense on systems whose array accessor type -- i.e., fixnum -- is relatively small relative to the available memory.
2014-07-11T08:49:27Z hitecnologys: stassats: I see. Looks like each time I ask this question, I ask it wrong and then you corrent me.
2014-07-11T08:49:53Z hitecnologys: s/corrent/correct/
2014-07-11T08:50:48Z stassats: moore33: sbcl isn't even using the whole word for the bignum length
2014-07-11T08:50:57Z stassats: so, on 32-bit, it's only 24-bit length
2014-07-11T08:52:33Z moore33: stassats: Oh right!
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2014-07-11T08:57:34Z stassats: so, (let* ((size (1- (expt 2 24))) (bignum (sb-bignum:%allocate-bignum size))) (loop for i below (1- size) do (sb-bignum:%bignum-set bignum i #xFFFFFFFF)) bignum)
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2014-07-11T08:58:52Z stassats: and add (sb-bignum:%bignum-set bignum (1- size) #x7FFFFFFF)
2014-07-11T08:59:44Z loke: what? So you can only have a 16-million digit number?
2014-07-11T08:59:51Z hitecnologys: Well, this is *big* number.
2014-07-11T08:59:51Z loke: disappointing
2014-07-11T09:00:14Z loke: If I can't store Graham's number in a variable, I'd be disappointed
2014-07-11T09:00:31Z stassats: loke: on x86-64, it's seventy-two quadrillion
2014-07-11T09:00:54Z hitecnologys: Can one use bignum to index another bignum?
2014-07-11T09:00:57Z loke: stassats: Still not enough for Graham's number :-(
2014-07-11T09:01:03Z joe-w-bimedina: does anyone else get these new line symbols ^M in there code on Ubuntu when pasting in code from a file in gedit?
2014-07-11T09:01:23Z stassats: except that the current x86-64 max out at 48 bits
2014-07-11T09:01:34Z stassats: so, two hundred eighty-one trillion
2014-07-11T09:01:46Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: it's different line ending. End of story.
2014-07-11T09:01:47Z stassats: joe-w-bimedina: that's CRLF
2014-07-11T09:02:16Z joe-w-bimedina: is there a way to get rid of them?
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2014-07-11T09:02:53Z stassats: hitecnologys: naturally, you can't, you would not be able to address that memory
2014-07-11T09:03:21Z stassats: even the 56-bit limit on x86-64 sbcl is too much, let alone the possible 64-bit one
2014-07-11T09:03:35Z hitecnologys: stassats: bleh, we need more memory then.
2014-07-11T09:03:45Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: replace them.
2014-07-11T09:04:15Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: or change line ending style you're using from LF to CRLF.
2014-07-11T09:04:27Z joe-w-bimedina: in gedit
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2014-07-11T09:05:11Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: I'm not familiar with gedit but I bet there is answer for it in google.
2014-07-11T09:05:26Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks:)
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2014-07-11T09:07:15Z stassats: loke: and that's a 16 million of 32-bit digits
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2014-07-11T09:08:22Z loke: stanislav: (expt 32 16E6) ?
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2014-07-11T09:11:59Z stassats: more like (expt (1- (expt 2 32)) (1- (expt 2 24)))
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2014-07-11T09:14:39Z loke: Hmm... What's the best way of knowing the magnitude of a bignum?
2014-07-11T09:14:41Z moore33: "the observable universe is far too small to contain an ordinary digital representation of Graham's number"
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2014-07-11T09:14:51Z stassats: loke: which kind?
2014-07-11T09:15:02Z loke: stassats: The result of your calculation above :-)
2014-07-11T09:15:11Z loke: moore33: I know
2014-07-11T09:15:16Z ggole: integer-length?
2014-07-11T09:15:20Z loke: mood: But clearly SBCL should support it anyway
2014-07-11T09:15:30Z stassats: well, (expt (1- (expt 2 32)) (1- (expt 2 24))) isn't filled with ones
2014-07-11T09:15:39Z stassats: and will unlikely to run to completion
2014-07-11T09:15:57Z stassats: (let* ((size (1- (expt 2 4))) (bignum (sb-bignum:%allocate-bignum size))) (loop for i below (1- size) do (sb-bignum:%bignum-set bignum i #xFFFFFFFF)) (sb-bignum:%bignum-set bignum (1- size) #x7FFFFFFF) (integer-length bignum)) is a faster way
2014-07-11T09:16:11Z loke: This works: (let ((x (expt (1- (expt 2 32)) (1- (expt 2 24))))) nil)
2014-07-11T09:16:22Z loke: This does not: (let ((x (expt (1- (expt 2 32)) (1- (expt 2 24))))) (integer-length x))
2014-07-11T09:16:28Z stassats: this works as well as NIL
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2014-07-11T09:20:31Z stassats: (1- (expt 2 536870879)) is a shorter way, but can't compute it on x86 sbcl
2014-07-11T09:20:34Z stassats: on x86-64 it's fine
2014-07-11T09:21:13Z samebchase: just came across this in PAIP: "Common Lisp is in a transitional position halfway between the Lisps of the past and the Lisps of the future."
2014-07-11T09:23:01Z loke: samebchase: The Lisp of the future is Common Lisp + The amazing libraries that we have available now
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2014-07-11T10:08:16Z ThePhoeron: madnificent: sorry, it's back up now
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2014-07-11T10:30:21Z samebchase: loke: hm.
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2014-07-11T11:02:47Z madnificent: ThePhoeron: thanks, people were looking at it here :-)  thanks
2014-07-11T11:05:40Z ThePhoeron: it got a little too much attention. another traffic spike in the middle of the night exhausted the heap, while I was sleeping
2014-07-11T11:06:03Z ThePhoeron: I've got a few more optimizations to work on today
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2014-07-11T12:20:25Z rick-monster: does anyone knows a way to make lparallel throw an error in the case where you call (future (do-some-stuff)) and all threads in lparallel:*kernel* are already busy?
2014-07-11T12:21:16Z rick-monster: seems the default behaviour is to put (do-some-stuff) in some sort of a queue, then assign to one of the worker threads when one becomes available...
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2014-07-11T12:22:31Z pjb: What about not doing it in the future?
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2014-07-11T12:31:08Z hitecnologys: rick-monster: you can try checking if kernel is busy manually and signal error. IIRC, there was a function for that.
2014-07-11T12:31:53Z rick-monster: I'm linking several parts of a data-processing pipeline using calispel library (csp-style channels).  Each 'worker' in each part of the pipeline should terminate when there's no more data to process
2014-07-11T12:32:42Z rick-monster: ok hitecnologies - yes that would work.  Can just check there are no stale workers when a job is initiated
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2014-07-11T12:35:25Z rick-monster: will have a poke around the API and see if I can find out how to do that - thanks!
2014-07-11T12:36:15Z joe-w-bimedina: hitecnologys: Thanks for the PR....much nicer. I just merged it.
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2014-07-11T12:55:58Z drmeister: Mornin' all - I was discussing ASDF at 3:00am (my time is now 8:54) with Fare and I left my chat open in case he had a solution to a problem I ran into incorporating it into my system.
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2014-07-11T12:56:13Z drmeister: For some reason my chat log got wiped out before 4:00am.
2014-07-11T12:56:56Z eudoxia: drmeister: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/lisp-2014-07.txt
2014-07-11T12:57:00Z drmeister: Does anyone the chat from about 6 hours ago and did Fare post anything?
2014-07-11T12:57:11Z drmeister: eudoxia: Thanks!
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2014-07-11T13:01:15Z Fare: hi
2014-07-11T13:01:25Z Fare: no, I didn't say anything
2014-07-11T13:01:50Z drmeister: No probs.   I've got my best people working on a solution.
2014-07-11T13:02:00Z Fare: :)
2014-07-11T13:02:13Z Fare: did you identify the bug in define-package ?
2014-07-11T13:02:29Z drmeister: No.
2014-07-11T13:02:40Z Fare: can you see whether uiop/common-lisp is correctly defined?
2014-07-11T13:02:49Z Fare: does it have its own nil?
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2014-07-11T13:04:30Z drmeister: You mean :uiop/common-lisp the package.   Let me check
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2014-07-11T13:06:15Z drmeister: It appears to have CL:NIL and does not have UIOP/COMMON-LISP:NIL
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2014-07-11T13:08:05Z drmeister: Now that you mention it - I don't have a NIL symbol.    I have a NIL value for the pointer and when my reader recognizes NIL it returns that NIL value.
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2014-07-11T13:09:17Z drmeister: This might be the source of my problem.
2014-07-11T13:09:56Z drmeister: I've got back and forth with how NIL is defined in my system.   I used tagged pointers and the lower 2 bits are the tag bits.   The value 0x09 is NIL.
2014-07-11T13:10:08Z drmeister: Pointer value 0x09 is NIL.
2014-07-11T13:10:22Z drmeister: So when the reader sees "NIL" it returns 0x09.
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2014-07-11T13:10:46Z Zhivago: What is (class-of nil)?
2014-07-11T13:11:01Z Zhivago: Ah. You're ignoring the package in the reader?
2014-07-11T13:13:16Z drmeister: (class-of nil) --> #<CL:BUILT-IN-CLASS CL:NULL 0x10cfe6918>
2014-07-11T13:13:49Z Zhivago: Well, as long as that's a subclass of symbol, you should be fine.
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2014-07-11T13:14:52Z Fare: that's fine, as long as you can still import nil into other packages
2014-07-11T13:14:53Z drmeister: What I said just prior to the (class-of ...) may not be entirely correct - but I did mess with things a little while back when I ran into a problem with nil.
2014-07-11T13:15:08Z Fare: drmeister: are non-nil symbols correctly imported/ exported?
2014-07-11T13:15:15Z Fare: what's uiop/common-lisp::car ?
2014-07-11T13:15:29Z drmeister: Let me check
2014-07-11T13:16:40Z drmeister: This isn't good - right?    https://gist.github.com/drmeister/9ccd3184d0ebbfe43a8a
2014-07-11T13:16:46Z drmeister: I can't import nil.
2014-07-11T13:18:02Z drmeister: When you say "what's uiop/common-lisp::car"  what do you mean by that?
2014-07-11T13:18:25Z Fare: what about non-nil symbols? Are they imported correctly?
2014-07-11T13:18:36Z Zhivago: What does intern think about "NIL"?
2014-07-11T13:19:06Z Fare: when uiop/common-lisp was created, it should basically import and reexport everything in common-lisp, with a few implementation-dependent exceptions
2014-07-11T13:19:20Z Fare: and some portability-recommended extensions
2014-07-11T13:19:26Z rick-monster: ok pjb so did you mean it is more correct to use (submit-task (make-channel) (lambda () (do-stuff)) , instead of (future (do-stuff)) ?
2014-07-11T13:19:26Z drmeister: (symbol-package 'uiop/common-lisp::car) --> #<CL>
2014-07-11T13:20:16Z Fare: what about T? Any other magic symbol?
2014-07-11T13:20:42Z Fare: for import, try instead (cl:import '(cl:nil))
2014-07-11T13:21:01Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/b150b01df672f55b922e
2014-07-11T13:21:04Z Fare: and/or (uiop/package:import* 'cl:nil foo)
2014-07-11T13:21:40Z Fare: when you find-symbol them, are they exported?
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2014-07-11T13:23:56Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/d9133e4f39cfefd5189d
2014-07-11T13:25:05Z drmeister: I'll think on this - i'll look for a difference between what clasp is doing with nil and what ECL is doing.   I've broken something subtle here.
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2014-07-11T13:26:27Z drmeister: My find-symbol may be broken - it keeps complaining that "NIL" is not a valid package designator.
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2014-07-11T13:30:06Z drmeister: When the CLHS says that a "package designator" is the "current package" - it means the value of cl:*package* - correct?
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2014-07-11T13:32:52Z drmeister: I've just noticed that I have just "*package*" in the lambda list for FIND-SYMBOL.    So if I'm in package :goofy ...   (find-symbol "NIL") will effectively be   (find-symbol "NIL" goofy:*package*)
2014-07-11T13:33:32Z drmeister: And not (find-symbol "NIL" cl:*package*)    -    which should it be?   I'm thinking the latter "cl:*package*"
2014-07-11T13:34:09Z drmeister: ASDF is really testing my package handing.
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2014-07-11T13:34:51Z Xach: (defun find-symbol (string &optional (package *package*)) ...)
2014-07-11T13:35:13Z Xach: drmeister: i wrote a book about the package system
2014-07-11T13:35:17Z Xach: sadly, it was in the future :(
2014-07-11T13:35:26Z Xach: i hope
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2014-07-11T13:37:10Z drmeister: Xach: So just to be really, really explicit:    NOT    (defun find-symbol (string &optional (package cl:*package*)) ...)
2014-07-11T13:37:46Z Xach: drmeister: if you want to be really explicit, i think you'd also need (cl:defun cl:find-symbol (string cl:&optional (package cl:*package*)) ...)
2014-07-11T13:38:04Z Xach: If you do not need that much explicity, I think you do not need cl:*package* either.
2014-07-11T13:38:09Z Fare: drmeister: packages are not dynamically bound, this is not clojure
2014-07-11T13:38:58Z Fare: drmeister: that's a default value
2014-07-11T13:39:09Z Fare: drmeister: and that seems correct
2014-07-11T13:39:22Z phadthai: drmeister: hmm it's a detail probably, but I also noticed that your class-of has a package prefix for the class name (CL:), but it's not the case for ECL, SBCL, CLisp, or the Hyperspect examples
2014-07-11T13:39:36Z phadthai: s/spect/spec/
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2014-07-11T13:40:04Z Fare: phadthai, printed that way because the current package isn't use'ing cl
2014-07-11T13:40:12Z Fare: same underlying symbol
2014-07-11T13:40:16Z phadthai: ok
2014-07-11T13:40:50Z drmeister: I'm growing confused - Xach - sorry I don't understand your last statement but it sounds important.
2014-07-11T13:41:14Z Xach: drmeister: I think when you are writing the code you are discussion, (eq *package* cl:*package*).
2014-07-11T13:41:19Z Xach: discussing, rather.
2014-07-11T13:41:32Z drmeister: Fare: The class-of had a package prefix because when I (make-package :goofy) it doesn't by default use any other packages.    I guess ECL does - maybe that's the difference here?
2014-07-11T13:41:41Z Xach: It is not harmful to write cl:*package*, but it looks unusual when you don't use cl: in other places where it might also be applied.
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2014-07-11T13:42:59Z Fare: drmeister, the bug may be somewhere else along the way
2014-07-11T13:43:13Z Fare: You could write tests and compare them on ECL and Clasp
2014-07-11T13:43:44Z drmeister: Xach: Oh - I see what you are saying.   The difference here is the (defun find-symbol (string &optional (package *package*)) ... ) doesn't exist.  FIND-SYMBOL is implemented in C++ - it may not behave like a DEFUN'd function wrt the defaults in the lambda list - I'll have to investigate.
2014-07-11T13:43:44Z Fare: to find where exactly the thing fails: while defining uiop/common-lisp ? While defining uiop/utility ?
2014-07-11T13:43:57Z Xach: drmeister: oh, ok.
2014-07-11T13:44:02Z Fare: note the function uiop/package:package-definition-form
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2014-07-11T13:44:30Z Fare: if it works, that's a great debugging tool in your situation
2014-07-11T13:44:37Z Xach: drmeister: I wrote a small package-system-like program for didactic purposes. Maybe you would find it helpful.
2014-07-11T13:45:02Z Xach: drmeister: it omits optimizations and designators and defaults and makes everything explicit, so maybe it *isn't* helpful if you're working out the corner cases.
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2014-07-11T13:46:54Z drmeister: Fare: Like this?   https://gist.github.com/drmeister/6656dce96f8f7c1afe90
2014-07-11T13:47:13Z Fare: yes
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2014-07-11T13:47:29Z Fare: what does it return for uiop/common-lisp, uiop/utility ?
2014-07-11T13:47:33Z drmeister: Are there any particular packages I should try it on?
2014-07-11T13:47:34Z drmeister: Got it
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2014-07-11T13:47:38Z Fare: and how does that differ from the results on ECL ?
2014-07-11T13:48:33Z Fare: I should have thought of it earlier — sorry
2014-07-11T13:48:37Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/cea793be1974d2fabbfe
2014-07-11T13:49:24Z Fare: what's the wdiff from the results on ECL ?
2014-07-11T13:49:49Z Fare: maybe without print-circle
2014-07-11T13:51:01Z drmeister: In ecl I tried (require :asdf) (uiop/package:package-definition-form :uiop/common-lisp)   but it complains "There is no package with the name UIOP/PACKAGE"  https://gist.github.com/drmeister/a3652dafea3a1f0490b5
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2014-07-11T13:52:06Z Fare: drmeister: try upgrading asdf to 3.1.2 — (require :asdf) (asdf:upgrade-asdf)
2014-07-11T13:52:30Z Fare: after you checked out asdf somewhere in your source-registry
2014-07-11T13:52:55Z Fare: (I recommend ~/common-lisp/asdf/ but you need to add that to your registry, if before 3.1.2)
2014-07-11T13:54:18Z drmeister: Ok - that's going to take a little bit of time.  I need to get ready for the day.  I'll try it on the train in about 45 min.     I have the source for the latest ASDF.   Can I just build it and from ECL just (load "asdf.lisp")
2014-07-11T13:54:39Z drmeister: Because that's what I'm doing in clasp.   (load "asdf.lisp")
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2014-07-11T13:54:54Z drmeister: brb
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2014-07-11T13:56:44Z rpg: Anyone know if there's a way to end-run the slime-fancy-inspector and see if there's anything in a data item that is NOT displayed?
2014-07-11T13:56:54Z rpg: E.g., properties that are implementation-specific?
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2014-07-11T13:57:29Z ura: Hello, do you know where I can download uncommon web video tutorial?
2014-07-11T13:57:39Z rpg: I like the inspector a lot, but I'd like to be able to punch through to ground truth...
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2014-07-11T13:58:05Z Xach: rpg: I'm having trouble picturing it. What's an example of an implementation-specific thing you had in mind?
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2014-07-11T13:58:39Z rpg: Xach: ACL has all kinds of properties that have to do with finding definitions. I'd like to know if there are such recorded on packages, but I can't see what's "really" in a package.
2014-07-11T13:58:55Z rpg: I can't get access to the ACL inspector.
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2014-07-11T13:59:33Z Xach: rpg: Oh. Are they mapped outside the object in some way? Like the ACL inspector knows special tables to use to map an object to a property it cares about?
2014-07-11T14:00:13Z rpg: Actually, I managed to do something gross involving TPL::INSPECT-COMMAND.  Hang on....
2014-07-11T14:00:14Z ura: never mind, I found it here https://archive.org/details/IntroductiontoUnCommonWeb
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2014-07-11T14:01:04Z rpg: whoops. Is paste.lisp.org not working?
2014-07-11T14:03:04Z Xach: Works for me.
2014-07-11T14:04:08Z rpg: http://pastebin.com/8KacXxgp
2014-07-11T14:04:25Z rpg: Xach: it didn't display any IRC channels for me. Empty menu.
2014-07-11T14:05:07Z rpg: Sorry -- I lost track of time and have to go off to a meeting.  But if you look at the pastebin, you will see there's a lot there that SLIME won't display. I suppose I could write a back-end to get some more of this for ACL in particular.
2014-07-11T14:05:10Z Xach: It never pasts to any irc channels.
2014-07-11T14:05:14Z Xach: pastes, rather.
2014-07-11T14:05:44Z rpg: Xach: Ah. I think you can see why I thought it was broken, though.
2014-07-11T14:05:56Z rpg: It *claims* to paste to IRC.
2014-07-11T14:06:21Z rpg: Anyway, sorry I must dash. If I can dope out the inspector more, I'll see if I can augment it.
2014-07-11T14:06:58Z rpg: Funny that defpackage doesn't seem to cache definition finding info....
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2014-07-11T14:10:55Z Xach: How can you tell?
2014-07-11T14:12:32Z Fare: drmeister, compare the same version of asdf on ecl and clasp
2014-07-11T14:13:02Z troydm: does SBCL compile it's code to machine code during compilation or does this happen just like in JIT vm's
2014-07-11T14:13:03Z troydm: ?
2014-07-11T14:13:18Z Xach: troydm: it compiles to machine code.
2014-07-11T14:13:19Z p_l: troydm: during compilation, it's an incremental compiler
2014-07-11T14:13:22Z Xach: during compilation.
2014-07-11T14:13:31Z Zhivago: which can be during run-time. :)
2014-07-11T14:13:51Z p_l: yes, but everytime you have something calling CL:COMPILE, it generates native code
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2014-07-11T14:14:13Z p_l: it's just that CL allows you to do so at run-time :)
2014-07-11T14:14:36Z Guest50695: p_l|backup: i just called cl:compile, and it complained about too few arguments, and did not generate any machine code...
2014-07-11T14:14:51Z Zhivago: Perhaps you should give it more arguments?
2014-07-11T14:15:01Z ggole: "At runtime" and "jit" aren't the same thing
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2014-07-11T14:15:48Z p_l: jdz: well, you need to give it something to compile
2014-07-11T14:15:52Z moore33: Much confusion :)
2014-07-11T14:16:07Z jdz: glad i could contribute
2014-07-11T14:16:37Z Zhivago: Personally, I like profile-inspired cached compilation.
2014-07-11T14:17:27Z moore33: Yeah, there was recently an interesting paper about that in JavaScript; very applicable to CL.
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2014-07-11T14:20:14Z troydm: ggole: what's the difference between "at runtime" and "jit" ?
2014-07-11T14:20:23Z moore33: https://www.webkit.org/blog/3362/introducing-the-webkit-ftl-jit/
2014-07-11T14:20:37Z Zhivago: "jit" is inspired by attempting to execute the code.
2014-07-11T14:20:52Z Zhivago: "at runtime" is inspired by explicitly running the compiler.
2014-07-11T14:21:07Z Zhivago: Which makes it "aot".
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2014-07-11T14:21:45Z p_l: well, JIT can be also said to simply run compile (or optimization, or whatever) "on-demand"
2014-07-11T14:21:52Z ggole: JIT means just-in-time: you don't compile until you are actually evaluating the code (or until after you've been evaluating it a few times)
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2014-07-11T14:22:51Z ggole: If code is compiled and then run, that's a quite different arrangement, even if the compilation is interleaved with the execution of parts of the program.
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2014-07-11T14:24:39Z troydm: ic, thx
2014-07-11T14:25:19Z ggole: Probably the largest benefit of a JIT is that you can be highly aggressive with speculative optimisations
2014-07-11T14:25:47Z Zhivago: But for that, you really want profiles -- that's why I like profile lead compilation.
2014-07-11T14:26:09Z Zhivago: In which case it isn't JIT, it's when-discovered-to-be-economical.
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2014-07-11T14:28:50Z ggole: JITs usually capture a bunch of useful information
2014-07-11T14:29:06Z ggole: It does seem like it would be nice to capture it ahead of time and deal with the warmup problem.
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2014-07-11T14:30:07Z p_l: ggole: several compilers do that
2014-07-11T14:30:23Z p_l had run for years a version of Firefox that was compiled according to profiling data
2014-07-11T14:31:02Z ggole: C compilers are faced with a considerably different compilation problem, though
2014-07-11T14:31:09Z ggole: They don't have dynamic type info to contend with
2014-07-11T14:32:07Z ggole: The potential win is much more important for programs that are continually making dynamic checks/decisions
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2014-07-11T14:33:13Z Zhivago: Well, the main win is that you can compress the unused code and pack the used code into cache efficiently.
2014-07-11T14:33:29Z Zhivago: So it helps with optimizing programs for particular configurations/loads.
2014-07-11T14:33:45Z p_l: ggole: LW, iirc, has something called "CLOS pretraining", where it primes dispatch ahead of time when it builds an image
2014-07-11T14:33:51Z ggole: A JIT doesn't have to generate unused/off-trace code at all
2014-07-11T14:34:16Z ggole: That's part of the reason why they can be so aggressive: there's no real danger of code size explosion, since they don't have to cover all paths.
2014-07-11T14:34:50Z Zhivago: Yes, but it does need to generate used code, generally.
2014-07-11T14:35:01Z Zhivago: Otherwise it isn't really jit, is it?
2014-07-11T14:35:32Z ggole: Sure, but packing code into cache nicely is pretty easy when you're a trace compiler
2014-07-11T14:35:49Z Zhivago: Absolutely.
2014-07-11T14:36:09Z ggole: For method compilers, I guess that's more of an issue.
2014-07-11T14:36:43Z ggole: Static profile data could definitely be handy there.
2014-07-11T14:38:44Z Zhivago: Or, historic.
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2014-07-11T14:42:44Z moore33: Zhivago: Used code can be interpreted too.
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2014-07-11T14:42:52Z moore33: The first few times.
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2014-07-11T14:44:12Z Zhivago: Sure, but that's not really jit, then, is it?
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2014-07-11T14:45:28Z moore33: Sure, the "time" is just later :)
2014-07-11T14:46:56Z Xach: i wonder if you could market aot better as "just in case" compilation
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2014-07-11T15:23:54Z drmeister: Fare: I have the differences between clasp and ecl for (uiop/package:package-definition-form :uiop/common-lisp):  https://gist.github.com/drmeister/447a0b96e756f3cd3842
2014-07-11T15:24:46Z drmeister: It's a bit of a dogs breakfast - mostly the same with some additions to the CL package in clasp (they need to be removed) and things missing in clasp (they need to be added).
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2014-07-11T15:25:59Z drmeister: The first thing I notice is in clasp the nicknames "ASDF/CL" and "ASDF/COMMON-LISP" are missing.
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2014-07-11T15:27:24Z drmeister: And "NIL" is missing in the clasp version {+"NIL"+}
2014-07-11T15:29:34Z drmeister: I guess the problem is that I don't have a NIL symbol in my COMMON-LISP package.   I'll add one and set its SYMBOL-VALUE to nil.   That's the correct thing to do right?
2014-07-11T15:30:23Z Bike: yeah.
2014-07-11T15:30:31Z drmeister: It sounds really, really basic and you wonder "how the heck is anything working if you don't have a NIL symbol in Common Lisp"    I guess this is the first time it's come up.
2014-07-11T15:30:37Z Bike: well, it should be a constant, really.
2014-07-11T15:30:45Z Xach: drmeister: I was wondering just that.
2014-07-11T15:31:15Z Bike: if i'm looking at this package definition right it looks like you might have a bunch of exported symbols in CL you really shouldn't
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2014-07-11T15:32:12Z drmeister: Yes - I have some more cleanup to do.   I did a whole bunch of cleanup and moving around of symbols about a year ago.   This is the first time I have feed back on how I did.   "wdiff" is great.
2014-07-11T15:33:46Z drmeister: Bike: Wait - by exported symbols you mean symbols that shouldn't be in the CL package or symbols that should be in the CL package but shouldn't be exported?    But all symbols in CL should be exported - right?  Basically the 972 (or whatever) CL symbols listed in the CLHS need to be exported - no more, no less.
2014-07-11T15:34:27Z drmeister: Like "*MAKE-CONSTANT" - that should not be in :CL it should be in :CORE
2014-07-11T15:37:01Z drmeister: Hmm, I do have a NIL symbol in CL.    I use this to create it:    _lisp->commonLispPackage()->add_symbol_to_package("NIL",_Nil<Symbol_O>(),true);
2014-07-11T15:37:37Z drmeister: This associates the name "NIL" with the tagged pointer value _Nil<Symbol_O>()  (which is the tagged pointer value 0x09).
2014-07-11T15:38:04Z drmeister: Should I be creating a symbol object for NIL and setting it's symbol-value to _Nil<Symbol_O>() and putting that in the package?
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2014-07-11T15:38:31Z Zhivago: Isn't your magic pointer already a symbol object?
2014-07-11T15:39:21Z drmeister: Zhivago: It's C++ type is smart_ptr<Symbol_O>  but there is no memory allocated for it and it doesn't have properties or a home package or any of that.
2014-07-11T15:40:06Z Fare: drmeister: the nil symbol must be EQ to the nil object
2014-07-11T15:40:10Z Fare: and all that implies
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2014-07-11T15:40:54Z drmeister: That will be true.
2014-07-11T15:40:56Z Fare: all the functions that work on symbols must recognize nil
2014-07-11T15:41:05Z drmeister: That will be true as well.
2014-07-11T15:41:08Z Fare: and method dispatch on symbol must match nil
2014-07-11T15:41:27Z Fare: null is a subclass of symbol
2014-07-11T15:41:35Z Fare: boolean, too
2014-07-11T15:42:15Z Fare: but hey — almost there! :-)
2014-07-11T15:42:42Z drmeister: Have I screwed up NIL again?
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2014-07-11T15:43:09Z drmeister: null is a subclass of symbol.
2014-07-11T15:43:32Z drmeister: (class-of nil) --> #<CL:BUILT-IN-CLASS CL:NULL 0x10f9eb918>
2014-07-11T15:43:50Z drmeister: (type-of nil) --> CL:NULL
2014-07-11T15:45:57Z drmeister: The only thing that fails currently is (SYMBOL-PLIST nil) --> error    https://gist.github.com/drmeister/807811adcc92ea73558b
2014-07-11T15:48:33Z drmeister: And nil is exported by :CL --> https://gist.github.com/drmeister/e2844291ce02a6d417eb
2014-07-11T15:49:37Z drmeister: Fare: Did you see the difference between uiop/package:package-definition-form I posted above?
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2014-07-11T15:49:52Z drmeister: It's the difference between clasp and ecl.
2014-07-11T15:52:18Z Xach: Hmm, is there a slime fmakunbound function at point key binding? I can't discern it from C-h b.
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2014-07-11T15:55:41Z drmeister: Maybe the difference is that ECL automatically (:use :COMMON-LISP) when you (MAKE-PACKAGE :XXX) but clasp does not.   If I'm playing the charade that clasp behaves like ECL - perhaps I need to mimic this implementation defined feature?
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2014-07-11T15:59:49Z Fare: drmeister, yes I saw it
2014-07-11T16:00:03Z Fare: I believe the main issue is with nil vs symbols
2014-07-11T16:00:09Z Fare: though the lack of nicknames is bad
2014-07-11T16:00:33Z Xach: Enfors: It's typical to write PRINT-OBJECT methods to support print-read consistency, e.g. it should either print in a way that READ can process, or it should print something that universally means "this isn't readable", usually via print-unreadable-object.
2014-07-11T16:00:40Z Fare: no, make-package is no matter
2014-07-11T16:00:56Z Fare: define-package specifies (:use) and/or :use '()
2014-07-11T16:01:37Z Fare: the main thing is that packages need to be able to intern NIL
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2014-07-11T16:02:03Z Fare: but you should address the CL package discrepancy
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2014-07-11T16:04:42Z Fare: drmeister, this form can test whether you got the CL package right: (labels(({(] &rest [)(apply([ ])[))([(])(elt(]())]))(](<)(do-external-symbols(]`:cl)(push`,]`,<))(sort <`string<`:key`string))(}(} {)({`688({`875({`398()"~{~A ~}~%"(]()))}(+`,{(*)})))({`381)({`816`2/9)))({`561()#'}`(874,948 7,6009 4862,370 10,12249)`(3,2 4,4 2,1 1,0)))
2014-07-11T16:06:42Z hitecnologys: Fare: is this Perl?
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2014-07-11T16:07:45Z inklesspen: hahaha
2014-07-11T16:09:16Z Fare: hitecnologys, looks like CL to me.
2014-07-11T16:10:05Z hitecnologys: Fare: nice test.
2014-07-11T16:10:21Z Enfors: Can you use "return nil" to leave a defmethod early?
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2014-07-11T16:10:27Z jdz: it looks better with proper indentation
2014-07-11T16:10:36Z Fare: enfors: return-from, or block nil ... return
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2014-07-11T16:10:43Z jdz: and whitespace
2014-07-11T16:10:52Z Enfors: Fare: OK, thanks.
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2014-07-11T16:14:14Z jdz: Fare: do you have an obfuscator function to do that, or do you do it to yourself yourself?
2014-07-11T16:14:44Z Xach: Enfors: that's not something you will have to use very often, though. (if you find yourself using it often, you might need to learn about more control structures)
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2014-07-11T16:17:03Z Fare: yes
2014-07-11T16:20:11Z moore33: Xach: Are you against return-from in general? I prefer early-exit to ever-deeper nested ifs, for example...
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2014-07-11T16:22:55Z Xach: Not in general.
2014-07-11T16:23:16Z Xach: Sometimes it's just the right thing. I think needing it often is not a good sign.
2014-07-11T16:23:46Z Xach likes tagbody sometimes too
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2014-07-11T16:30:44Z nicdev: Fare, are you still looking anyone to write tests for cl-launch and LIL?
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2014-07-11T16:49:17Z Fare: nicdev: not *actively*, but that's a good way to learn about software
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2014-07-11T16:59:33Z inklesspen: anyone know of some reader macros to give some nice syntax for putting data on a symbol's property list? kind of the way clojure has reader macros for metadata (http://clojure.org/metadata)
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2014-07-11T17:00:42Z stassats: who even uses symbol property lists?
2014-07-11T17:00:46Z Xach: I don't think there are things like that.
2014-07-11T17:00:51Z Xach: I used one once.
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2014-07-11T17:02:31Z inklesspen: stassats: well, i am, but maybe it's not a good idea.
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2014-07-11T17:03:47Z inklesspen: i have an irc bot where i parse commands into ops and args. like "roll 2d6" would be parsed into :roll with the args (2 6). then I have a generic function whose methods specialize on the keyword symbol.
2014-07-11T17:03:57Z stassats: it isn't indeed
2014-07-11T17:04:02Z inklesspen: but i want to associate documentation with these symbols.
2014-07-11T17:04:12Z stassats: maybe if it was 1965, with no defstruct and no defclass around
2014-07-11T17:04:18Z inklesspen: i figured the property list for the symbol would be a good idea
2014-07-11T17:04:48Z inklesspen: obviously i could also do this with a hashmap or something with the symbol as the key and the documentation as the value.
2014-07-11T17:05:33Z stassats: property lists aren't suited for this even if you liked them
2014-07-11T17:05:41Z inklesspen: (i don't want to use common lisp's built in documentation strings, because (A) the hyperspec says implementations are allowed to ignore then and (B) they're documentation for the irc bot's users, not the programmer)
2014-07-11T17:05:51Z inklesspen: stassats: okay. how would you do this?
2014-07-11T17:06:06Z inklesspen: i'm using this project to learn CL, so I'm learning as I go.
2014-07-11T17:06:50Z stassats: or rather, symbols aren't suited for this, just use classes
2014-07-11T17:06:53Z stassats: or structures
2014-07-11T17:07:02Z inklesspen: sounds good
2014-07-11T17:07:45Z hitecnologys: inklesspen: something like (defclass op () ((doc) (function)))
2014-07-11T17:07:45Z inklesspen: er.
2014-07-11T17:07:46Z stassats: keyword symbols are "shared" between all programs, so assigning property lists to them isn't a great idea
2014-07-11T17:07:49Z inklesspen: wrong window.
2014-07-11T17:08:12Z inklesspen: hitecnologys: seems a bit like overkill to me.
2014-07-11T17:08:15Z stassats: even if property lists are rarely used
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2014-07-11T17:09:14Z inklesspen: in my experimentation it looked like if i store a value on a keyword symbol's plist using a non-keyword symbol, that symbol is namespaced to my package. but i guess that's no guarantee some other package won't react unexpectedly to it being there.
2014-07-11T17:09:22Z stassats: inklesspen: define overkill? you are learning, how do you know what is overkill or not?
2014-07-11T17:09:24Z hitecnologys: inklesspen: (defstruct op () doc function) should work too, but DEFSTRUCT defines class anyway. You might also want to write a macro that'll provide syntactic abstraction for defining your ops.
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2014-07-11T17:09:37Z stassats: hitecnologys: () is not a great name for a slot
2014-07-11T17:10:31Z stassats: inklesspen: why do you insist on using symbols?
2014-07-11T17:10:35Z hitecnologys: stassats: indeed. That was just a suggestion anyway, not a piece of code for actual use.
2014-07-11T17:11:49Z inklesspen: stassats: i don't _insist_ on using symbols. but i like that lisp provides machinery for making sure that one :roll is eq to another :roll
2014-07-11T17:11:51Z hitecnologys: inklesspen: if your ops do different stuff and need different parameters, you might want metaclass for them.
2014-07-11T17:12:07Z Zhivago: Also, while defstruct defines a class, it is of a different metaclass than what defclass produces.
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2014-07-11T17:12:33Z inklesspen: i am trying to treat this as a DSL, with separate parsing and evaluation steps.
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2014-07-11T17:13:07Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: I don't think it makes any difference in this case.
2014-07-11T17:13:38Z Zhivago: It will if you think that they'll be interoperable.
2014-07-11T17:14:01Z hitecnologys: Indeed.
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2014-07-11T17:14:26Z inklesspen: i don't have any firm reason as to why using classes for ops is too overwrought, except that i don't know of many languages that choose to represent the parsed ops as class instances.
2014-07-11T17:15:03Z hitecnologys: Well, using classes for it sounds natural. That's what I'd do.
2014-07-11T17:15:30Z stassats: any serious parser / compiler would use structures of some sort
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2014-07-11T17:16:31Z inklesspen: okay, but i still don't see a big difference between (:roll (2 6)) and a struct with values op :roll and args (2 6)
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2014-07-11T17:16:51Z inklesspen: (or (:roll . (2 6)) if you don't mind dotted pairs)
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2014-07-11T17:18:04Z hitecnologys: inklesspen: the big difference is that class provides abstaction.
2014-07-11T17:18:25Z inklesspen: abstraction is literally the opposite of what i want.
2014-07-11T17:18:33Z hitecnologys: Why's that?
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2014-07-11T17:19:47Z inklesspen: the bot has multiple modes of operation. the 'eval-command' methods are specialized on the current mode and the op, so :roll may be implemented differently from one mode to another.
2014-07-11T17:20:17Z hitecnologys: And how's that related to abstracting op away?
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2014-07-11T17:20:32Z inklesspen: as far as I can tell, this replaces 'build a dotted pair of op and args' with 'make an instance with op name and args' and gains me absolutely nothing in flexibility.
2014-07-11T17:21:03Z hitecnologys: You write metaclass for op and then define class for each of your ops.
2014-07-11T17:21:13Z inklesspen: why
2014-07-11T17:21:19Z inklesspen: what i'm doing right now works perfectly well
2014-07-11T17:21:20Z hitecnologys: Why not?
2014-07-11T17:21:23Z stassats: hitecnologys: surely not a metaclass?
2014-07-11T17:21:54Z inklesspen: you're asking me to do extra work for not only no extra benefit, but for extra overhead when parsing (because i have to make-instance)
2014-07-11T17:21:57Z hitecnologys: stassats: well, that's what I'd do. I like MOP too much, I guess.
2014-07-11T17:22:06Z inklesspen: and all just to associate a docstring with an op.
2014-07-11T17:22:17Z inklesspen: i'll just have a hashmap with the docstrings.
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2014-07-11T17:22:35Z stassats: hitecnologys: there's absolutely no reason to use a different metaclass from standard-class, and especially so if you're just learning things
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2014-07-11T17:23:23Z hitecnologys: stassats: yes, I agree. I just like to overcomplicate things.
2014-07-11T17:23:35Z stassats: i don't believe you
2014-07-11T17:23:42Z inklesspen: my codebase is at https://github.com/inklesspen/alea in case you feel like looking at what i've done so far.
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2014-07-11T17:24:57Z hitecnologys: stassats: anyway, I had task similar to his twice and I used two different approaches out of curiosity: the one he uses with symbols and the one I suggested now. I personally find the latter to be more flexible and easy-to-use.
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2014-07-11T17:26:13Z stassats: what is the purpose of ;;;; alea.lisp ?
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2014-07-11T17:26:34Z hitecnologys: stassats: that's from quickproject.
2014-07-11T17:26:47Z hitecnologys: stassats: ask Xach.
2014-07-11T17:26:51Z stassats: and what is its purpose?
2014-07-11T17:26:52Z inklesspen: i used quickproject, yeah, and i figured i'd follow the patterns it set up in the other files.
2014-07-11T17:27:00Z inklesspen: because, again, learning.
2014-07-11T17:27:26Z inklesspen: i suppose the purpose is you don't have to look at the bottom of the screen to see which emacs buffer you're in.
2014-07-11T17:28:09Z hitecnologys: Yes, you'd rather scroll to the top and then go back.
2014-07-11T17:28:39Z inklesspen: you might already be at the top
2014-07-11T17:28:41Z inklesspen shrugs
2014-07-11T17:28:55Z inklesspen: i'm well aware there's some style warts to clean up.
2014-07-11T17:29:11Z inklesspen: and the order of code within context.lisp and parsing.lisp is also not 100% great
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2014-07-11T17:29:52Z stassats: inklesspen: remove-first-word will fail if there's no space
2014-07-11T17:30:31Z inklesspen: thanks
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2014-07-11T17:31:40Z inklesspen: gotta run to a meeting.
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2014-07-11T17:34:49Z Xach: i what?
2014-07-11T17:35:26Z didi: Is there a more idiomatic name for http://pastebin.kde.org/pqzq7zfec/yrdyky ? I feel there ought to be. Maybe even a built-in function.
2014-07-11T17:35:33Z hitecnologys: Xach: you wrote quickproject, IIRC.
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2014-07-11T17:38:02Z stassats: didi: does it really do what it says?
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2014-07-11T17:38:45Z stassats: (lists-starting-with '(a (a b) c) 'a) => ((A (A B) C))
2014-07-11T17:38:53Z stassats: i would have expected ((A (A B) C) (A B))
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2014-07-11T17:39:30Z didi: stassats: Oh, OK. I wouldn't, but I can see why you would.
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2014-07-11T17:42:09Z didi: I will add a sentence about it in the docstring.
2014-07-11T17:42:11Z didi: Maybe a name change would be more appropriate. I don't like it as it is already.
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2014-07-11T17:42:33Z stassats: but answering your original question, tree-remove-if-not
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2014-07-11T17:42:56Z stassats: or (tree-remove 'a tree :key #'car :test #'eql)
2014-07-11T17:43:09Z stassats: correction, (tree-remove 'a tree :key #'car :test-not #'eql)
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2014-07-11T17:44:09Z didi: Ah. Brilliant. Like `remove-if*', but for trees.
2014-07-11T17:44:14Z didi: Thank you, stassats.
2014-07-11T17:44:23Z stassats: you can call it lumberjack
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2014-07-11T17:44:35Z didi: :^D
2014-07-11T17:45:01Z stassats: (if you don't mind some cross-dressing)
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2014-07-11T17:57:40Z drmeister: Fare: what the fudge?  (labels(({(] &rest [)(apply([ ])[))([(])(elt(]())]))(](<)(do-external-symbols(]`:cl)(push`,]`,<))(sort <`string<`:key`string))(}(} {)({`688({`875({`398()"~{~A ~}~%"(]()))}(+`,{(*)})))({`381)({`816`2/9)))({`561()#'}`(874,948 7,6009 4862,370 10,12249)`(3,2 4,4 2,1 1,0)))
2014-07-11T17:58:08Z stassats: does it remove your home directory?
2014-07-11T17:58:37Z drmeister: In ecl I get "JUST ANOTHER LISP HACKER"
2014-07-11T17:58:49Z ggole: Heh.
2014-07-11T17:59:00Z drmeister: And then it asks me to kill it.
2014-07-11T17:59:11Z drmeister: I think it achieved sentience.
2014-07-11T17:59:59Z drmeister: In clasp I get: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/57a472619886f59220eb
2014-07-11T18:00:55Z drmeister: I feel like I've failed some inscrutable test.
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2014-07-11T18:03:08Z drmeister: It does make a lot more sense with indentation though.
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2014-07-11T18:07:28Z stassats: a lot more from 0 sense is still 0
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2014-07-11T18:16:02Z geardev: why are they called procedures in sicp?
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2014-07-11T18:16:05Z geardev: are they not functions?
2014-07-11T18:16:24Z stassats: not in the mathematical sense
2014-07-11T18:16:40Z stassats: but it doesn't really matter to anyone
2014-07-11T18:16:41Z geardev: stassats: why is that?
2014-07-11T18:16:53Z geardev: i was referring to your first comment
2014-07-11T18:17:42Z stassats: because it can produce different output for the same input
2014-07-11T18:18:38Z nicdev: Does the function Fare gave have the same results on all implementations? tried it on latest SBCL and LW and they have different answers and nothing similar to drmeister ECL answer
2014-07-11T18:18:58Z stassats: did you copy the right thing?
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2014-07-11T18:19:43Z uzo: procedures is the more correct name like stassasts said
2014-07-11T18:19:57Z geardev: stassats: oh i see
2014-07-11T18:19:59Z geardev: thank you
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2014-07-11T18:20:17Z stassats: it isn't really any more or less correct
2014-07-11T18:20:28Z stassats: unless you are a stuck up mathematician
2014-07-11T18:20:31Z uzo: function especially in the mathematical sense implies that you get one output for the same input all the time
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2014-07-11T18:28:02Z Fare: nicdev: works for me on sbcl and lw
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2014-07-11T18:31:20Z nicdev:  Fare: i could have not copied it right, will try again and see and actually indent it to try and see what's going on in first place
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2014-07-11T18:37:28Z Fare: for i ($=ASDF_TEST_LISPS) { echo $i ; cl -l $i '(labels(({(] &rest [)(apply([ ])[))([(])(elt(]())]))(](<)(
2014-07-11T18:37:29Z Fare: do-external-symbols(]`:cl)(push`,]`,<))(sort <`string<`:key`string))(}(} {)({`688({`875({`398()"~{~A ~}~%"(]()))}(+`,{(*)})))({`381)({`816`2/9))) ({`561()#'\''}`(874,948 7,6009 4862,370 10,12249)`(3,2 4,4 2,1 1,0)))' }   #==> works on every single implementation (except that cl has trouble on ecl_bytecodes and cmucl, but that's another issue)
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2014-07-11T18:40:40Z Shinmera: Fare: that is some beautiful code soup.
2014-07-11T18:41:03Z l3thal: that is incredibly painfully to even attempt to read
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2014-07-11T18:43:30Z Xach: mission accomplisehd
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2014-07-11T18:57:32Z Fare: someone once wrote a blog piece about decoding that bit of code
2014-07-11T18:57:45Z Fare: I think he missed some of the points
2014-07-11T18:57:49Z Fare: but oh well
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2014-07-11T19:00:29Z Fare: the main point, I believe is that the contents of the CL package are portably defined, that you can use the sorted list of names as a portable constant string that can serve as a compression dictionary, and the sequence of symbols as a set of numbered system calls.
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2014-07-11T19:00:49Z Fare: the rest is regular obfuscation.
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2014-07-11T19:04:24Z DrDuck: Hey guys. I'm about half way through the SICP exercises and thinking about where to move next when the book is finished. Is PAIP still generally accepted as classic CS literature here? I know most of the AI concepts in the book might be a bit outdated, and I can look into using lisp with AIMA for that, but is it still worth it atleast as far as learning and exploring the method of building good software?
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2014-07-11T19:05:23Z Xach: PAIP is not really about AI. It's more about what useful, permanently applicable tools fell out of old-school AI.
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2014-07-11T19:05:28Z Xach: And it's also a good introduction to Common Lisp.
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2014-07-11T19:07:09Z DrDuck: Ahh I'm looking for more general applicable techniques in computation with easy-to-follow writing style, like SICP is teaching.
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2014-07-11T19:12:55Z Xach: http://norvig.com/Lisp-retro.html -- see the "what lessons are in paip" section
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2014-07-11T19:19:25Z Shinmera: Fare: Thanks, this was fun! http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view?id=58#annotation-59
2014-07-11T19:20:36Z didi: Shinmera: Do you know Fare's `fibonacci.lisp'?
2014-07-11T19:20:57Z Shinmera: didi: I don't think I do
2014-07-11T19:21:06Z didi: Shinmera: http://fare.tunes.org/files/fun/fibonacci.lisp
2014-07-11T19:21:50Z Fare: thanks!
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2014-07-11T19:47:58Z Shinmera: Fare: didi: A very nice article indeed
2014-07-11T19:49:05Z Fare: thanks! :-)
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2014-07-11T20:00:54Z drmeister: Fare: is there a less obfuscated version of that form that I could use to diagnose the problem?
2014-07-11T20:01:12Z Shinmera: drmeister: I pasted one above
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2014-07-11T20:23:43Z drmeister: Shinmera: Thanks.   The last version that works in ECL is the one with the header "Inline nth-symbol calls".
2014-07-11T20:24:21Z drmeister: That version works on mine as well but because I don't have all the CL symbols exposed and implemented my version prints "S* C* COW-OTUMBERER-D-OTE"
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2014-07-11T20:24:42Z didi: Wow. "The functions delete-if-not and remove-if-not are deprecated." -- HyperSpec
2014-07-11T20:25:03Z Xach: "The deprecation of delete-if-not adn remove-if-not is deprecated." -- Reality
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2014-07-11T20:26:32Z drmeister: So none of the more obfuscated versions will work because they funcall symbols indexed from a list of sorted CL symbols.   If even one is out of place it will fail.
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2014-07-11T20:29:55Z Xach: well, if it's missing zerop, it might still work.
2014-07-11T20:30:11Z Xach: but a missing &allow-other-keys is probably problem
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2014-07-11T20:33:59Z Fare: is there Xiki for CL?
2014-07-11T20:34:00Z Fare: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/xiki/xiki-the-command-revolution
2014-07-11T20:37:55Z drmeister: Fare:  Above you said: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/8e7270d9220460b6fef3
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2014-07-11T20:38:45Z Fare: yes?
2014-07-11T20:38:58Z Xach: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3231699761742658%40naggum.net.html
2014-07-11T20:38:59Z Fare: my lawyer will help me deny I ever said that
2014-07-11T20:39:59Z Fare: yup
2014-07-11T20:40:17Z Fare: better have a function that errors out than be missing the function. And put extensions in a different package.
2014-07-11T20:40:55Z Fare: I believe it's permissible for CL to import its symbols from other packages --- but that's poor taste.
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2014-07-11T20:48:34Z moore33: DrDuck:You might enjoy Abelson&Sussman's other book, on dynamics and orbital mechanics:
2014-07-11T20:48:55Z drmeister: Sorry - I keep having students come in with issues that I need to deal with.  Ugh.
2014-07-11T20:49:27Z drmeister: Fare: I'll get all the symbols squared away in the correct packages.
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2014-07-11T20:50:22Z drmeister: The "packages need to be able to intern NIL" statement that I'm trying to figure out.
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2014-07-11T20:50:33Z drmeister: My packages can intern NIL but they create their own NIL.
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2014-07-11T20:51:57Z moore33: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/gjs/6946/sicm-html/
2014-07-11T20:53:05Z Xach: drmeister: I ran into trouble like that for a bit when I forgot that NIL also means false. So I had some code that was like (when symbol <do something with symbol>)
2014-07-11T20:53:20Z Xach: then SYMBOL was NIL and I had a problem.
2014-07-11T20:53:32Z drmeister: This is what clasp does: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/89472a99a742047ebefd
2014-07-11T20:54:14Z Xach: drmeister: that looks fine to me.
2014-07-11T20:54:14Z Fare: drmeister: both are needed. NIL is a symbol name like others — except for the magical cl:nil symbol
2014-07-11T20:54:47Z Fare: also NIL is the empty list and (import nil foo) doesn't do what you think
2014-07-11T20:54:52Z drmeister: This is what ecl does: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/9e8506cec5d805d75850
2014-07-11T20:54:59Z smithzv: j
2014-07-11T20:55:04Z smithzv: whoops
2014-07-11T20:55:12Z Xach: drmeister: make sure the make-package calls are doing the same, provide an explicit :use argument.
2014-07-11T20:55:13Z kristof: Does setting a dynamic var before you call-next-method do what I think it does?
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2014-07-11T20:55:29Z Fare: that's correct
2014-07-11T20:55:37Z Fare: that's not the only correct solution, but that's correct
2014-07-11T20:55:58Z Fare: but yes, portable programs will pass a :use argument to make-package
2014-07-11T20:56:26Z drmeister: Fare: Ok, so both the clasp results and the ECL results are valid solutions?
2014-07-11T20:57:03Z Fare: what does clasp say?
2014-07-11T20:57:15Z Fare: ECL is correct
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2014-07-11T20:58:11Z Fare: your clasp example looks correct
2014-07-11T20:58:12Z drmeister: This is what clasp says:   https://gist.github.com/drmeister/89472a99a742047ebefd
2014-07-11T20:58:25Z Fare: but uiop/common-lisp failed to intern the proper NIL
2014-07-11T20:58:26Z drmeister: Here's what clasp says when I (make-package "FOO" :use :cl)
2014-07-11T20:58:49Z drmeister: Right so next I'll have to look at why that happened.
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2014-07-11T20:59:20Z Fare: please check the functions import and uiop/package:import*
2014-07-11T20:59:21Z drmeister: Here's what clasp does with (make-package "FOO" :use :cl):    https://gist.github.com/drmeister/30e6501abba03a371bcb
2014-07-11T20:59:38Z drmeister: Got it - with so many distractions today I forgot to do that.
2014-07-11T20:59:48Z Fare: looks corrcet
2014-07-11T21:00:10Z Fare: uiop/package:package-definition-form is your friend
2014-07-11T21:00:31Z Fare: oh -- and if you create test cases for uiop/package, please send them my way
2014-07-11T21:00:45Z Fare: and/or offer them as patches to asdf/test/test-utilities.script
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2014-07-11T21:01:00Z drmeister: You mentioned that before.   I'm not sure how uiop/package:package-definition-form   is my friend.
2014-07-11T21:01:03Z Fare: or a new asdf/test/test-package.script
2014-07-11T21:01:26Z Fare: it's your friend: compare its results on ECL and CLASP, and consider that any discrepancy is a bug.
2014-07-11T21:01:29Z drmeister: I'm also not sure what test cases for uiop/package would look like or what they would do.
2014-07-11T21:01:49Z Fare: they would look like a sequence of some make-package, import*, etc., calls
2014-07-11T21:02:00Z Fare: then assertions on find-symbol or find-symbol*
2014-07-11T21:02:27Z Fare: make-package, define-package, etc. — and assertions on package-definition-form.
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2014-07-11T21:02:50Z Fare: checking that the functionality is working.
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2014-07-11T21:03:55Z Fare: I don't see any valid reason why (package-definition-form :uiop/common-lisp) should differ between ecl and clasp
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2014-07-11T21:10:33Z drmeister: The (SYMBOL-NAME 'NIL) is always all caps "NIL" - correct?
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2014-07-11T21:14:58Z loz1: why does last test fail? http://ideone.com/LEs3Dn
2014-07-11T21:15:16Z loz1: btw on sbcl test1 also returns false
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2014-07-11T21:16:47Z drmeister: I found a problem in IMPORT and a couple of functions with nil.
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2014-07-11T21:39:12Z Fare: drmeister, yes.
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2014-07-11T21:40:01Z Fare: drmeister, do you understand that (import '() foo) is a NOP but (import '(NIL) foo) isn't?
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2014-07-11T21:56:13Z drmeister: Fare: Yes - I got that (import nil :FOO) and (import '() :FOO) are NOPs.
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2014-07-11T21:56:36Z drmeister: The problem persists so I'm looking at INTERN now.
2014-07-11T21:58:51Z drmeister: This looks like correct behavior: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/b62568b0a88ca9d1034a
2014-07-11T22:00:45Z drmeister: Gotta catch a train.  BRB
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2014-07-11T22:06:59Z nightfly: ugh, scheme keywords being like this: is: just: confusing:
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2014-07-11T22:13:26Z drmeister: In ECL, after (load "asdf.lisp") I get https://gist.github.com/drmeister/577dedf0af6186617e06
2014-07-11T22:13:51Z drmeister: But in Clasp after (load "asdf.lisp") I get https://gist.github.com/drmeister/cf85ab4f35ec072ab5ef
2014-07-11T22:14:48Z drmeister: In Clasp the :UIOP/COMMON-LISP package has the CL:NIL symbol but the :UIOP/UTILITY package has UIOP/UTILITY:NIL
2014-07-11T22:15:11Z Bike: drmeister: i was going off of *make-constant apparently being exported from common-lisp, which it shouldn't be. but i could be assuming
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2014-07-11T22:18:54Z drmeister: I'll change that
2014-07-11T22:19:15Z kristof: drmeister: How's your compiler coming along?
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2014-07-11T22:20:41Z drmeister: kristof: At some level it's done - garbage collection works (Boehm works, MPS - in progress), it's running on OS X and Linux.   I separated out all the dependent libraries.    I'm waiting now for my IP people to tell me I can release it.
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2014-07-11T22:21:08Z drmeister: I'm trying to get ASDF working and it's exposing all the sins of my past wrt symbols and packages.
2014-07-11T22:21:55Z kristof: Ah, so that explains all the questions from earlier
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2014-07-11T22:38:53Z drmeister: It shouldn't break anything (other than Fare's inscrutable, pathological CL test) that *MAKE-CONSTANT is exported from :COMMON-LISP should it?
2014-07-11T22:39:38Z |3b|: it isn't conformant
2014-07-11T22:40:07Z drmeister: I'm not saying it's not wrong (it's non-conformant and that's a bug) - but I probably have other problems that are causing UIOP/UTILITY to create its own NIL .
2014-07-11T22:40:08Z |3b|: so if it does break anything, it is your fault :p
2014-07-11T22:40:44Z drmeister: I've got 99 troubles and CL:*MAKE-CONSTANT ain't one of them is all I'm saying.
2014-07-11T22:40:52Z |3b|: it would break anything that :USEs :CL, then defines *MAKE-CONSTANT
2014-07-11T22:40:58Z drmeister: s/I'm/ahm/g
2014-07-11T22:41:47Z |3b|: (assuming you have a definition for it in same namespace)
2014-07-11T22:41:48Z drmeister must practice his yokelisms
2014-07-11T22:43:02Z drmeister: So maybe asdf is defining *make-constant  I didn't check.
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2014-07-11T22:51:36Z drmeister: brb
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2014-07-12T00:30:40Z pjb: drmeister: the ANSI CL standard means that YOU DO NOT HAVE TO CHECK!
2014-07-12T00:30:50Z pjb: Just don't export it and it'll be cool!
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2014-07-12T00:32:26Z pjb: drmeister: as an implementor, you only have to ensure your implementation is conforming, and then all conforming lisp code will run on it without any problem.
2014-07-12T00:32:41Z jasom: oh, are you permitted any unexported symbols in cl?
2014-07-12T00:33:10Z pjb: drmeister: if you check whether some code runs, then you may get gcl: a big failure.  gcl checks that maxima works.  maxima wasn't conforming, therefore gcl wasn'g conforming. Result: it's the worse CL implementation ever.
2014-07-12T00:33:17Z pjb: jasom: of course.
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2014-07-12T00:35:21Z pjb: (which is not to say that gcl+maxima weren't good at a time; nowadays, maxima is conforming and runs on other implementations, notably ecl, and gcl is requiring a lot of maintainance to put it up to level).
2014-07-12T00:36:31Z jasom: I always thought the point of gcl was to run maxima, not to be a general-purpose lisp implementation
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2014-07-12T00:37:21Z pjb: well, at one time, that was indeed the only reason why you'd use it.
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2014-07-12T00:41:46Z zRecursive: ECL can run MAXIMA but it cannot run STUMPWM , Is ECL confirming to ANSI CL standard ?
2014-07-12T00:42:15Z Bike: zRecursive: for the hundredth time, stumpwm is not an ansi-conformant application, it uses clx
2014-07-12T00:42:30Z Bike: pjb: well the question here is whether drmeister's cl package is exporting more than it should, see
2014-07-12T00:43:04Z pjb: sure.
2014-07-12T00:44:38Z drmeister: Acknowledged.
2014-07-12T00:44:41Z jasom: hmm, someone with no other lisp projects on github just checked in a snapshot of ltk.
2014-07-12T00:44:51Z zRecursive: Bike: weird CLX
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2014-07-12T04:42:17Z beach: Good morning everyone.
2014-07-12T04:42:17Z minion: beach, memo from pkhuong: SBCL doesn't do CPS. WRT flow-sensitive analyses and mutable bindings, IR1 is your regular basic block of nodes + variable names representation. We've completely separated the flow insensitive and sensitive part of type propagation; more simplicity/speed, less precision.
2014-07-12T04:44:57Z beach: minion: memo for pkhuong: Thanks.  I was lead to believe that SBCL does CPS by something stassats said.  I must have misunderstood.
2014-07-12T04:44:57Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pkhuong when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-07-12T04:57:51Z mammuth: Hi all. What is the best way to do execve() in sbcl?
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2014-07-12T06:32:11Z theos: minion: memo for minion: so this is how memo works?
2014-07-12T06:32:11Z minion: Buzz off.
2014-07-12T06:32:13Z theos: :<
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2014-07-12T06:33:33Z joshe: haha
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2014-07-12T08:16:56Z ura: Good morning, can somebody explain how lisp command line utilities (like a cron job) are deployed?
2014-07-12T08:18:47Z ura: sbcl startup time is about 0.5s, so I guess sbcl must be running persistently and cron job from command line should call somehow function from persistent lisp
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2014-07-12T08:21:26Z Zhivago: I expect that they use a saved image, generally.
2014-07-12T08:21:31Z Zhivago: That avoids the boot time.
2014-07-12T08:21:31Z hitecnologys: ura: or you save image.
2014-07-12T08:22:09Z ura: persistent lisp looks more appealing to me (I want to have dozen of utilities), is it possible?
2014-07-12T08:22:25Z ura: I mean is there some standard way to run code in existing instances, swank?
2014-07-12T08:22:41Z ura: or it just for SLIME?
2014-07-12T08:23:17Z Zhivago: Well, nothing stops you from using some kind of RPC.
2014-07-12T08:23:29Z Zhivago: But in that case, why are you using cron?
2014-07-12T08:23:42Z hitecnologys: ura: SWANK should work, I guess. But I'd rather write my own system for that.
2014-07-12T08:23:45Z ura: I already learned that with a Lisp way there is a cl-cron ;-)
2014-07-12T08:23:52Z joe-w-bimedina: I have a define-foreign-type, translate-to-foreign and a translate-from-foreign and a defclass at this gist: https://gist.github.com/  these four sections of code make up my types. at the gist at the top is a defcstruct , that, I am trying to make a part of my types  by changing the :actual-type in the define-foreign-type to:   (:actual-type '(:pointer (:struct rect1))). The :actual-type is normally :pointer and that makes it so the defcfun at the bottom o
2014-07-12T08:23:52Z joe-w-bimedina: f the gist compiles no problem.  As it is at the gist, when I compile the code there I get an error in my defcun saying thet "(:pointer (:struct rect1)) is not a cffi type".  Why is it doing this and how can I make the actual type of my define-foreign-type a (:pointer (:struct rect1))?
2014-07-12T08:24:14Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: what IRC client do you use?
2014-07-12T08:24:30Z joe-w-bimedina: xchat
2014-07-12T08:24:48Z hitecnologys: And XChant can't split messages by words?
2014-07-12T08:25:08Z ura: I hoped that maybe there is something standard, I will try with swank then. Thanks!
2014-07-12T08:25:13Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry about that I will check and repost
2014-07-12T08:26:00Z hitecnologys: No need to, I'm just surprized. I thought every major chat client can do that nowadays.
2014-07-12T08:26:21Z PuercoPop: ura you could write your own scheduler on top of cl-async if you are so inclined.
2014-07-12T08:26:40Z Shinmera: ura: You could also run a lisp http server and simply read-eval requests
2014-07-12T08:27:28Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm checking for a setting, hopefully I can fix that for the future,  btw thanks for the doc. update...it was very professional
2014-07-12T08:27:45Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: sounds like overkill to me.
2014-07-12T08:28:11Z ura: PuercoPop, downside of that way that admins could not manage cron jobs, the only person who could enable/disable or change schedule would be me
2014-07-12T08:28:13Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Would be easier to interact with than swank though since you can just use curl or something
2014-07-12T08:28:52Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Which would make it aight to call from cron
2014-07-12T08:28:52Z ura: Shinmera, yeah thanks, really viable way, I saw many php cron jobs are run that way (where php-cli is not installed)
2014-07-12T08:29:25Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: well, maybe. But UNIX sockets sound more suitable for this kind of task.
2014-07-12T08:30:34Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: A lot of things would be more suitable, I agree. An http would just get the job done quick
2014-07-12T08:30:40Z ura: hitecnologys, I have to write my own launcher with C for spooling lisp code to swank. It's more efficient way but more difficult at the same time.
2014-07-12T08:30:41Z Shinmera: *http server
2014-07-12T08:30:56Z PuercoPop: ura, how to add jobs to the scheuler is up to you, they could be read from a file or with an http request
2014-07-12T08:32:28Z ura: I think it would be easier for admins to have a cron jobs centralized. It's tough to manage system where each application has own scheduling solution.
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2014-07-12T08:33:28Z hitecnologys: Indeed.
2014-07-12T08:33:33Z ura: I liked Shinmera it's the most straightforward way, if it would be a bottleneck I would make it in another way, but for now I think it would be just fine.
2014-07-12T08:34:06Z ura: *I liked Shinmera solution
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2014-07-12T08:35:08Z ura: In this particular case I still would run http service for monitoring console, so cron thought http would be at no cost.
2014-07-12T08:35:19Z ura: *through
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2014-07-12T09:32:42Z Ralt: am I the only one annoyed that concatenating strings is so long? Or is there something similar to this? https://github.com/Ralt/.dotfiles/blob/master/stumpwmrc#L66-L68
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2014-07-12T09:36:14Z hitecnologys: Ralt: no, you're not the only one, but I'd rather define a function: (defun s+ (&rest strings) (apply #'concatenate 'string strings))
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2014-07-12T10:23:34Z stassats: easy, just don't concatenate strings
2014-07-12T10:24:47Z stassats: and s+ isn't that great a name
2014-07-12T10:33:50Z hitecnologys: Why not? Sounds good to me. STRING+ or something similar might be better, though.
2014-07-12T10:35:04Z beach: or CONCATENATE-STRINGS :)
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2014-07-12T10:36:35Z beach: Ralt: Seriously, I think stassats has a point.  If you are concatenating a lot of string, you are probably using a less-than-optimal data structure.
2014-07-12T10:39:38Z Ralt: hitecnologys: that raises an interesting point. Why is defun better than a macro here, especially since the macro is more readable?
2014-07-12T10:40:11Z stassats: more readable? since when?
2014-07-12T10:40:13Z Ralt: beach: I work with stumpwm that uses strings there and there
2014-07-12T10:41:08Z Ralt: stassats: (defmacro +s (&body body) `(concatenate 'string ,@body)) seems more readable than using (apply) on a function at 1st glance
2014-07-12T10:41:17Z beach: Ralt: Because you can use APPLY with a function.
2014-07-12T10:41:40Z stassats: the next function (+s "s-" (write-to-string i)) is easly (format nil "s-%d" i)
2014-07-12T10:42:11Z Ralt: oh right, I always forget about format
2014-07-12T10:42:13Z Ralt: thanks
2014-07-12T10:43:19Z stassats: does (defcommand screenshot () () "screenshot" (run-shell-command "gnome-screenshot")) really need such a docstring?
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2014-07-12T10:43:45Z stassats: or is it used for something else?
2014-07-12T10:43:59Z Ralt: stassats: afaik, stumpwm uses this docstring when displaying the list of commands (C-t ?)
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2014-07-12T10:55:00Z phadthai: hmm I have a STRING-CONCAT function with the same syntax (other than the name), but it was mostly used for performance rather than to be shorter to type (allocates a large array and expands it by large increments, about 5 times faster than the native concatenate, and faster than using apply/reduce or streams (it was needed as part of autogenerated serialization functions which were intially a bottleneck)
2014-07-12T10:55:30Z phadthai: s/intially/initially/
2014-07-12T10:55:47Z phadthai: and deserialization, actually
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2014-07-12T10:59:33Z phadthai: also used as part of a FORMAT replacement there (about 50 times faster in this case), as it's autogenerated and the code doesn't need to be clear to read
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2014-07-12T11:00:48Z phadthai: it makes me remember that I should eventually check why ECL number to string conversions and format were so slow
2014-07-12T11:02:16Z phadthai: but there's also the printer with all the dynamically bound parameter variables that might be involved
2014-07-12T11:09:47Z phadthai: s/bound/scoped/ I seem to have trouble to type, it must be too early
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2014-07-12T11:40:30Z wizzo: what is the best way to remove elements from an assoc list?
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2014-07-12T11:40:47Z wizzo: or update them i guess
2014-07-12T11:41:27Z wizzo: i'm using remove but i'm not sure if that's a good way, or how i should be specifying what to remove
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2014-07-12T11:43:52Z samebchase: wizzo: sure you don't want to use hash-tables ? Removing from a list is an O(n) operation. Unless your alist is very small, you could use a hash-table instead
2014-07-12T11:44:13Z Shinmera: (delete my-key alist :key #'car)
2014-07-12T11:44:34Z wizzo: samebchase: i agree, hash list is definitely more suitable for what i'm doing
2014-07-12T11:44:44Z wizzo: but i want to learn how to work with the lists
2014-07-12T11:45:10Z wizzo: Shinmera: i don't get how my-key works with :key
2014-07-12T11:45:20Z wizzo: does it apply that function on it?
2014-07-12T11:45:20Z Shinmera: my-key is the variable that stores the key you want to delete
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2014-07-12T11:45:33Z wizzo: oh wait
2014-07-12T11:45:37Z wizzo: now i think i get it
2014-07-12T11:45:57Z wizzo: cool cool thanks Shinmera
2014-07-12T11:46:02Z Shinmera: Get used to reading the hyperspec.
2014-07-12T11:46:23Z wizzo: i did but my brain couldn't make the connection :(
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2014-07-12T11:46:46Z samebchase: wizzo: also see this: http://jtra.cz/stuff/lisp/sclr/index.html
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2014-07-12T11:47:39Z wizzo: thanks
2014-07-12T11:47:45Z wizzo: that looks good
2014-07-12T11:48:54Z wizzo: if i have a large assoc list, and i remove an element from the start of the list, then push one from the front, that wouldn't actually take much time right?
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2014-07-12T11:49:04Z wizzo: cause it only deals with the first few cons cells?
2014-07-12T11:49:13Z oleo: (setf alist '((a . b) (c .d))) (assoc 'c alist) -> (c . d), (remove (assoc 'c alist) alist) -> ((a . b)) (alist still the same) , (delete (assoc 'c alist) alist) -> alist modified
2014-07-12T11:49:15Z wizzo: push one to the front*
2014-07-12T11:50:02Z wizzo: ahhh
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2014-07-12T11:50:07Z wizzo: oleo: cool!
2014-07-12T11:50:33Z Shinmera: You should still always setf your list variable to the result of delete
2014-07-12T11:51:01Z wizzo: why?
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2014-07-12T11:51:23Z Shinmera: because it might change the head
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2014-07-12T11:52:53Z wizzo: what's the head?
2014-07-12T11:53:07Z oleo: (head | tail)
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2014-07-12T11:53:17Z oleo: (a b c d) -> head a, tail '(b c d)
2014-07-12T11:53:27Z Shinmera: consider: (let ((a (list 1 2 3))) (delete 1 a) a)
2014-07-12T11:54:51Z ggole: The head that would be a problem if it changed is the first cons, not the first element.
2014-07-12T11:55:16Z ggole: And it might have to change to nil, not just mutate.
2014-07-12T11:55:36Z wizzo: i think i'm getting my terms mixed up. what does element refer to exactly?
2014-07-12T11:55:46Z wizzo: if not the first cons
2014-07-12T11:55:47Z ggole: The a in oleo's example.
2014-07-12T11:56:07Z wizzo: ok
2014-07-12T11:56:10Z ggole: The cons is the mutable structure that contains/points to that element.
2014-07-12T11:56:28Z wizzo: ahh ok makes sense
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2014-07-12T12:23:13Z oleo: so trees are not unique ....bleh
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2014-07-12T13:07:45Z samebchase: just found out that ccl and sbcl have :shared and :synchronized keyword args respectively that ensure thread-safe hash-tables
2014-07-12T13:08:10Z samebchase: for make-hash-table
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2014-07-12T15:16:06Z theos: did they remove get-setf-function from CL or changed it to get-setf-expansion?
2014-07-12T15:16:24Z theos: get-setf-method* function
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2014-07-12T15:29:03Z phadthai: theos: I only know get-setf-expansion, but it's also more general than a function or method, as it's expanded by the setf macro
2014-07-12T15:29:59Z phadthai: there are facilities to easily create setf functions however
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2014-07-12T15:30:43Z theos: phadthai i see. maybe it was in cltl and removed in cltl2
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2014-07-12T15:31:09Z phadthai: possible
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2014-07-12T16:24:24Z drewc: maybe it was i cltl2 but removed from ansi.
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2014-07-12T16:27:42Z drewc goes back 20 years because he just woke up and saw the most recent chat about cltl1/2 ... so 24 years ago ... but he is young so was not around then.
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2014-07-12T16:30:34Z loke_: drewc: Yes. You go and grow up a bit :-)
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2014-07-12T16:34:45Z drewc: loke_: well. 20 years ago I was around actually ... and had my first drivers license, and whatever else being 16 brings you ... I even looked at SCHEME, though back in the day it was C and Perl4 IIRC. Still, did not move into CL 'til 2003, so yeah, sorry to have been offtopic for 25 years or so.
2014-07-12T16:35:33Z didi: So I suddenly had an epiphany: It is not a good idea to have a `tree-remove-if-not'.
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2014-07-12T16:35:53Z pjb: Why not?
2014-07-12T16:35:54Z didi: OPs: kikinii is spamming.
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2014-07-12T16:36:10Z oleo: omg, magic!
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2014-07-12T16:36:23Z oleo: I, i tell you it's magick!
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2014-07-12T16:37:00Z oleo: sounds like someones fixing sbcl right behind my back!.....
2014-07-12T16:37:03Z oleo: lol
2014-07-12T16:37:03Z didi: pjb: Well. First, let me ask you: What would you test? Branches, leafs or both?
2014-07-12T16:37:09Z drewc: didi: could you define TREE-REMOVE-IF-NOT? otherwise we can not tell if your idea is not good.
2014-07-12T16:37:14Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
2014-07-12T16:37:25Z pjb: In a tree-remove-if-not, you would tests the cars of the sexp.
2014-07-12T16:37:52Z didi: Ah. So that's not what I'm doing.
2014-07-12T16:37:57Z didi: drewc: Sure, sure.
2014-07-12T16:38:06Z didi: I'm actually trying to define it.
2014-07-12T16:38:36Z pjb: The objections would be that there's already (subst-if-not (lambda (x) (if (predicate-p x) x nil)) tree)
2014-07-12T16:38:44Z pjb: and that otherwise you need to define your tree structure.
2014-07-12T16:39:11Z kikinii [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (spamming is bad, mkay?)
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2014-07-12T16:40:04Z pjb: Sorry, that would be: (subst-if-not nil (function predicate-p) tree)
2014-07-12T16:40:29Z drewc needs to learn to type faster than Pascal.... otherwise it looks like he's a bot that repeats things! OR: what he said.
2014-07-12T16:40:38Z p_l has set mode -b *!*ircap@90.174.1.*
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2014-07-12T16:41:32Z nicdev: Shinmera-: are you here? this is the error i get trying to load commonqt. have you seen it before?
2014-07-12T16:41:40Z Shinmera- is now known as Shinmera
2014-07-12T16:41:55Z Shinmera: nicdev: what error
2014-07-12T16:42:17Z pjb: drewc: careful, typing too fast, and you'll look like a robot again ;-)
2014-07-12T16:42:39Z ChanServ has set mode -o p_l
2014-07-12T16:42:40Z drewc: It has been some 22 years since I programmed in Pascal! <--- Offtopic, but relevant to my somewhat ontopic start today, and funny.
2014-07-12T16:43:18Z nicdev: Shinmera: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143118, the link is old but i just pulled the latest SBCL, build it and tried again and have the same output.
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2014-07-12T16:44:02Z Shinmera: No, I have not seen it before, sorry.
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2014-07-12T16:44:19Z Shinmera: and stassats isn't here either
2014-07-12T16:45:14Z p_l: PSA - I suspect we will get one less PM-spammer now, though remember that they can still PM without being in a channel (you can prevent most of it with /mode +R *your-nick*)
2014-07-12T16:45:43Z nicdev: Shinmera: will lurk and try to catch him sometime this weekend and hopefully he will help me resolve it
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2014-07-12T16:46:21Z Shinmera: Strange though, it seems there's an issue with the named readtables usage, which I would least expect to fail
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2014-07-12T16:47:47Z theos: p_l lotiho is a bot too
2014-07-12T16:47:49Z didi: p_l: Interestingly, they don't seem to collect a list of nicks, but spam nicks on their first message to the channel.
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2014-07-12T16:49:15Z phadthai: I also received one privmsg spam from it
2014-07-12T16:49:22Z nicdev: I agree. What version of SBCL have you been using? before this I had 1.1.18, so I might try git bisect and see when it starts breaking and that might help. should be some learning as I have not used git bisect at all before
2014-07-12T16:49:45Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
2014-07-12T16:50:07Z Shinmera: I've used 1.1.18 and 1.2.0 and I'm pretty sure 1.2.1 should be fine too
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2014-07-12T16:51:27Z nicdev: Shinmera: Thanx, I will downgrade to 1.2.0 first then and try from there
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2014-07-12T16:52:58Z Shinmera: I really doubt sbcl versions are going to be the issue here
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2014-07-12T16:55:31Z p_l: ... that might actually kill all ircaps
2014-07-12T16:56:30Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143154
2014-07-12T16:56:58Z lotiho [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (nope, go away)
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2014-07-12T16:58:57Z theos: :D
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2014-07-12T17:30:14Z stickittothemain: i have a stupid idea
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2014-07-12T17:31:00Z stickittothemain: lisp...and html!
2014-07-12T17:31:13Z stickittothemain: again, stupid
2014-07-12T17:31:40Z hitecnologys: stickittothemain: what?
2014-07-12T17:32:01Z stickittothemain: html: <p>Hello, World</p>
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2014-07-12T17:32:12Z decent: anything + HTML = stupid? :)
2014-07-12T17:32:18Z stickittothemain: lisp+html: (p "Hello, World")
2014-07-12T17:32:44Z Shinmera: that's already been done hundreds of times
2014-07-12T17:32:53Z stickittothemain: really?
2014-07-12T17:32:57Z Shinmera: ya
2014-07-12T17:33:00Z Shinmera: rly
2014-07-12T17:33:16Z hitecnologys: stickittothemain: cl-who, hctsmsl. Chose whichever you like more.
2014-07-12T17:33:25Z hitecnologys: s/Chose/Choose/
2014-07-12T17:33:42Z stickittothemain: oh
2014-07-12T17:34:07Z oleo: bleh it's flat.....
2014-07-12T17:34:20Z hitecnologys: Every Lisp programmer probably wrote something like thise at least once.
2014-07-12T17:35:36Z stickittothemain: those aren't what i had in mind...
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2014-07-12T17:36:09Z hitecnologys: cl-who is exactly what you suggested in your example.
2014-07-12T17:37:18Z stickittothemain: still no.
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2014-07-12T17:37:54Z Shinmera: No amount of 'no' is going to illustrate the difference.
2014-07-12T17:38:18Z hitecnologys: stickittothemain: provide better explanation then.
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2014-07-12T17:40:55Z stickittothemain: cl-who and hctsmcl are libraries(is that the correct word?), while i was thinking of a whole new language that just LOOKS like lisp
2014-07-12T17:41:08Z stickittothemain: wait
2014-07-12T17:41:21Z Shinmera: why do that when we have macros
2014-07-12T17:41:45Z stickittothemain: change 'LOOKS like lisp' to 'has similar syntax as lisp'
2014-07-12T17:41:51Z hitecnologys: stickittothemain: you don't seem to undetstand how Lisp works.
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2014-07-12T17:42:09Z stickittothemain: hitecnologys: i probably don't as well
2014-07-12T17:42:13Z hitecnologys: Wait, I got what he meant.
2014-07-12T17:42:39Z hitecnologys: Replace HTML syntax by one based on s-expressions?
2014-07-12T17:42:48Z stickittothemain: hitecnologys: yes
2014-07-12T17:42:51Z hitecnologys: Well, that's impossible.
2014-07-12T17:43:09Z stickittothemain: may i ask why?
2014-07-12T17:43:16Z hitecnologys: That would require browsers to be rewritten.
2014-07-12T17:43:22Z Shinmera: because no browser would support it in a life time
2014-07-12T17:43:24Z hitecnologys: And all the Internets.
2014-07-12T17:43:38Z stickittothemain: i was thinking it would be 'compiled
2014-07-12T17:43:40Z hitecnologys: Othewise, we would have too much legacy.
2014-07-12T17:43:42Z stickittothemain: ' into html
2014-07-12T17:43:48Z Shinmera: if it's compiled into html we're back to macros
2014-07-12T17:43:49Z hitecnologys: That's exactly what cl-who does.
2014-07-12T17:45:16Z hitecnologys: I'd rather stick to writing LispOS.
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2014-07-12T17:47:40Z stickittothemain: are you joking or are you actually writing LispOS?
2014-07-12T17:48:06Z hitecnologys: Some people do.
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2014-07-12T17:48:19Z hitecnologys: But it's definitely going to be finished in my lifetime, I hope.
2014-07-12T17:48:36Z decent: definately maybe?
2014-07-12T17:49:27Z hitecnologys: decent: who know, maybe it won't be.
2014-07-12T17:49:57Z stickittothemain: a LispOS shouldn't be very hard(in terms of os development).
2014-07-12T17:50:24Z Shinmera: What's that supposed to mean
2014-07-12T17:50:25Z hitecnologys: Are you sure?
2014-07-12T17:50:56Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143154#1
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2014-07-12T17:51:39Z hitecnologys: stickittothemain: have you ever written OSs before? It may sound easy on paper, but reality's a bitch. Apology for my French.
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2014-07-12T17:53:08Z stickittothemain: i don't know if this is correct, but i think an os 'in' lisp should have everything except the low-level stuff written in lisp. so, everything that's not c or asm is lisp
2014-07-12T17:53:24Z stickittothemain: i guess an opinion cant be wrong
2014-07-12T17:54:04Z Shinmera: an opinion is wrong if it's based on false assumptions.
2014-07-12T17:54:06Z hitecnologys: Lisp is not an OS, Lisp is a programming language. It doesn't have everything OS need because implementation does.
2014-07-12T17:54:27Z hitecnologys: (although, implementation doesn't)
2014-07-12T17:55:18Z stickittothemain: the only operating system that uses lisp as it's recommended programming language for developing applications is emacs
2014-07-12T17:55:28Z stickittothemain: that i can think of
2014-07-12T17:55:51Z hitecnologys: Well, Emacs is completely another story.
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2014-07-12T17:56:41Z hitecnologys: And it doesn't have everything you need. Who would use OS without built-in text editor?
2014-07-12T17:56:48Z hitecnologys: I wouldn't.
2014-07-12T17:57:56Z stickittothemain: i guess what i meant was an os that anything not the kernal written in lisp
2014-07-12T17:58:48Z chu: There's a shell written in scheme (granted, not cl), but it's old and unmaintained. Shows how much interest there was, I guess.
2014-07-12T18:00:00Z hitecnologys: stickittothemain: err. You're talking about environment. That's not operating system.
2014-07-12T18:00:35Z stickittothemain: okay
2014-07-12T18:00:49Z stickittothemain: so, LispENV can't be that hard...
2014-07-12T18:01:14Z hitecnologys: Putting everything we have together is hard.
2014-07-12T18:01:43Z stickittothemain: why don't we just start writing it?
2014-07-12T18:01:51Z stickittothemain: who here knows c?
2014-07-12T18:02:15Z chu: Yikes, just a bit ambitious.
2014-07-12T18:02:27Z stickittothemain: alright then.
2014-07-12T18:02:42Z stickittothemain: who here can copy and paste from osdev.org?
2014-07-12T18:03:20Z hitecnologys: stickittothemain: go write it yourself, if you're so enthusiastic, it's allowed.
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2014-07-12T18:05:33Z stickittothemain: fine, be like that
2014-07-12T18:05:41Z stickittothemain: see if i care
2014-07-12T18:05:49Z stickittothemain kinda cares
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2014-07-12T18:10:27Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143154#2
2014-07-12T18:11:23Z Bike: ((atom tree) (if (listp tree) ...)) <-- tragically beautiful
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2014-07-12T18:12:14Z Shinmera: oh lord
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2014-07-12T18:12:54Z Bike: (tree->list '(((1)))) => (((1))). genius stuff, oleo. you've outdone yourself.
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2014-07-12T18:13:42Z Bike: (tree->list '((1) (2 3))) => error!
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2014-07-12T18:15:53Z oleo: (tree->list (list->tree '((1) (2 3))))
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2014-07-12T18:16:58Z oleo: eheh
2014-07-12T18:17:04Z wizzo: can anyone tell me why the first functions (let ((message bit is fine but the second one results in the style warning?
2014-07-12T18:17:04Z wizzo: http://lpaste.net/9215293087406882816
2014-07-12T18:17:11Z wizzo: they look exactly the same to me :(
2014-07-12T18:17:56Z oleo: i said it's on another level.....
2014-07-12T18:18:25Z Bike: wizzo: do you ahve type declarations in the functions you're using but haven't pasted?
2014-07-12T18:18:49Z wizzo: is a defstruct a type declaration?
2014-07-12T18:19:01Z Bike: No.
2014-07-12T18:19:34Z wizzo: then no not as far as i know
2014-07-12T18:19:34Z Bike: well, sbcl probably does think that a defstruct accessor should receive an appropriate struct instance. which of these are accessors?
2014-07-12T18:20:22Z wizzo: the message-nick, message-channel stuff (i think?)
2014-07-12T18:20:31Z wizzo: http://lpaste.net/1017196621043073024
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2014-07-12T18:22:08Z Bike: ok, i can reproduce.
2014-07-12T18:23:03Z Bike: sbcl is probably thinking that since it takes a &rest you're not handling the case of (cmd-seen). I don't know why it would only find it on one, since that's the case with both functions. gonna say it's just a vagary of sbcl's type analysis
2014-07-12T18:24:00Z wizzo: oh ok. i am glad at least i'm not going crazy
2014-07-12T18:24:09Z wizzo: is this a bad practice i'm doing?
2014-07-12T18:24:18Z wizzo: i can change it but didn't know if it was a big deal or not
2014-07-12T18:24:34Z Bike: it's probably not a big deal but the results if you call (cmd-seen) are probably undefined or something.
2014-07-12T18:24:45Z Bike: Why are you using &rest anyway?
2014-07-12T18:25:39Z wizzo: oooh i see what you mean
2014-07-12T18:26:08Z wizzo: i'm not really sure now
2014-07-12T18:26:14Z Bike: The style warning seems to show up when you reference message exactly once.
2014-07-12T18:26:17Z wizzo: i think i'm just going to change it
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2014-07-12T18:27:35Z wizzo: Bike: aren't i doing that in both?
2014-07-12T18:27:53Z Bike: No, you use message three times in grab quote.
2014-07-12T18:28:50Z wizzo: oh i see
2014-07-12T18:29:13Z wizzo: thanks for working that out i was absolutely stumped. makes sense now
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2014-07-12T18:37:04Z Bike: wizzo: could you tell me (lisp-implementation-version)?
2014-07-12T18:39:29Z ecraven: is it possible to use cl-opengl (and maybe cl-glfw3) to write a pure opengl 3 core context application? i.e. not using the compatibility context?
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2014-07-12T18:47:15Z |3b|: ecraven: should work fine, assuming you create the context with something that can create a core context
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2014-07-12T18:47:50Z |3b|: might need to be careful which cl-opengl functions you call or what arguments you call it with, but most of the stuff that would break would be the things that wouldn't work on a core context in C
2014-07-12T18:48:51Z |3b|: file bugs if you find anything in particular that doesn't work that you think should
2014-07-12T18:49:20Z |3b| usually just uses compatibility context due to laziness, so i don't notice that sort of thing
2014-07-12T18:51:21Z ecraven: |3b|: thanks, I'll try as soon as I get cffi-libffi to compile.. it doesn't include ffi.h correctly on my system, nonstandard include location it seems.. not familiar enough with quicklisp to fix this myself :-/
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2014-07-12T19:04:05Z drmeister: I removed all non-CL symbols from my CL package (don't worry - they have all been given good homes) and at this point I am missing 67 of COMMON-LISPs 978 standard symbols (not yet implemented).
2014-07-12T19:05:44Z drmeister: I wish the Common Lisp standards committee had pushed for 1,000 symbols - or dropped one symbol for 977 (prime number).   Alas.
2014-07-12T19:06:59Z Bike: "978 = 2 × 3 × 163, sphenic number, nontotient, First EAN prefix for ISBNs, ISBN Group Identifier for books published in Nigeria"
2014-07-12T19:09:17Z drmeister: There you go.   Not one of those facts is very notable.
2014-07-12T19:09:50Z Bike: clearly you haven't looked at many ISBNs!
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2014-07-12T19:09:59Z Bike: first book i pick up. 978-0-14-311256-3. it's a sign, i'm telling you.
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2014-07-12T19:22:54Z samebchase: 978-1-59327-281-4 : Land of Lisp
2014-07-12T19:25:20Z Shinmera: LOL and PAIP also have 978- ISBNs
2014-07-12T19:25:38Z drmeister: Now that is eerie.
2014-07-12T19:26:42Z inklesspen: 978 is a fictional country called Bookland
2014-07-12T19:26:51Z inklesspen: designed to merge ISBNs with EANs
2014-07-12T19:26:58Z inklesspen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bookland
2014-07-12T19:28:14Z inklesspen: (what i'm saying is quite a lot of books will have 978 ISBN/EANs
2014-07-12T19:29:24Z Shinmera: ssshhhh
2014-07-12T19:29:27Z Shinmera: don't ruin the moment
2014-07-12T19:29:36Z inklesspen: (ruining all moments)
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2014-07-12T20:06:15Z Fare: ISBN > ICBM
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2014-07-12T20:06:37Z Fare: drmeister, just because you don't provide a useful definition doesn't mean you shouldn't export the symbols.
2014-07-12T20:06:42Z stassats: lexicographically?
2014-07-12T20:07:14Z Fare: uh?
2014-07-12T20:07:24Z Fare: oh, ok
2014-07-12T20:07:37Z drmeister: Fare: I can do that.
2014-07-12T20:08:25Z Fare: a defun or defmacro that errors is better than nothing, too
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2014-07-12T20:09:18Z drmeister: SORT can destructively alter it's argument - correct?
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2014-07-12T20:10:08Z Fare: yup
2014-07-12T20:10:15Z drmeister: Mine does and it's causing a problem.   If I (sort (package-nicknames :XXX)) the package nicknames gets mangled.
2014-07-12T20:10:21Z Fare: it doesn't HAVE TO, but you can't portably rely on it
2014-07-12T20:10:30Z Fare: copy-list is your friend
2014-07-12T20:11:24Z drmeister: The CLHS doesn't specify in the case of PACKAGE-NICKNAMES that it should return a copy of the list.
2014-07-12T20:11:58Z drmeister: When functions like PACKAGE-NICKNAMES return lists - should I run it though copy-list before returning it?
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2014-07-12T20:12:38Z stassats: no
2014-07-12T20:12:42Z stassats: don't modify it
2014-07-12T20:13:35Z drmeister: So ASDF is modifying the PACKAGE-NICKNAMES in package-definition-form.
2014-07-12T20:13:55Z Fare: oops
2014-07-12T20:14:02Z Fare: that's a bug
2014-07-12T20:14:22Z drmeister: Oh - ok.
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2014-07-12T20:15:49Z drmeister: Wouldn't it be better for me to return a (copy-list (package-nicknames* PKG)) ?    I could avoid this sort of problem.
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2014-07-12T20:16:13Z stassats: it wouldn't
2014-07-12T20:16:42Z drmeister: Got it.
2014-07-12T20:17:59Z drmeister: So if I run into a problem like this it would be better to write the code as: (let ((nicks (copy-list (package-nicknames PKG)))) ... (sort nicks))
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2014-07-12T20:24:13Z Bike: basically, yeah.
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2014-07-12T20:24:41Z Fare: drmeister, I've just pushed a fix
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2014-07-12T20:24:50Z drmeister: Thanks!
2014-07-12T20:24:54Z Fare: sorry about that
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2014-07-12T20:27:19Z drmeister: No sweat.
2014-07-12T20:28:24Z drmeister: Is this a valid DEFMACRO lambda-list?    I thought only DESTRUCTURING-BIND did destructuring like this - it's been a while.     (defmacro if-let (bindings &body (then-form &optional else-form))
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2014-07-12T20:29:11Z stassats: it is valid
2014-07-12T20:29:19Z Bike: not sure why you'd do it, though...
2014-07-12T20:29:31Z drmeister: Sorry - yes it's valid.
2014-07-12T20:30:40Z moore33: drmeister:DESTRUCTURING-BIND  came about to expose the destructuring mechanism that has to exist in order to support DEFMACRO.
2014-07-12T20:32:05Z stassats: destructuring-bind doesn't support &environment
2014-07-12T20:33:17Z Quadrescence: stassats, is this desirable in SBCL: 1.2d0 ==> 1.2d0, 1.2s0 ==> 1.2s0, but (coerce 1.2s0 'double-float) ==> 1.2000000476837158d0
2014-07-12T20:33:53Z stassats: ask intel/amd/ieee
2014-07-12T20:34:32Z stassats: (and s isn't a syntax for single-floats)
2014-07-12T20:34:41Z Quadrescence: short
2014-07-12T20:35:02Z Quadrescence: 1.2e0, doesn't make a difference
2014-07-12T20:35:20Z stassats: f is the one for single floats, and it wouldn't on sbcl
2014-07-12T20:35:29Z Quadrescence: i know
2014-07-12T20:37:00Z |3b|: if 1.2 is enough digits to uniquely describe the single float 1.2, and that single-float isn't exactly equal to the double float 1.2d0, then it should print differently
2014-07-12T20:39:10Z Quadrescence: yes
2014-07-12T20:39:11Z stassats: the cpu does the conversion, you have to ask it
2014-07-12T20:39:43Z stassats: and since 1.2d0 isn't equal to 1.2000000476837158d0, it's printed differently
2014-07-12T20:41:12Z moore33: integer-decode-float is instructive.
2014-07-12T20:41:37Z moore33: It's a big advance that 1.2 actually prints as 1.2.
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2014-07-12T20:48:50Z francogrex: if you haven't seen this before, slime and vim: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLBzxbAjHi0
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2014-07-12T20:49:39Z stassats: that doesn't make me want to watch it
2014-07-12T20:50:04Z francogrex: it's no slime of course, slime without emacs is bullshit
2014-07-12T20:50:45Z Barinstrom is now known as dickle
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2014-07-12T20:50:53Z stassats: that's the definition of slime, an emacs editing mode, can't run it without emacs
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2014-07-12T20:52:15Z francogrex: I know, the guy who name this as his project is an imbecile
2014-07-12T20:52:44Z stassats: and you are a doctor?
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2014-07-12T20:53:10Z francogrex: this is better: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2531
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2014-07-12T20:56:25Z francogrex: the previous one has nothing to do with slime, swank or anything, it's using vim and sending the commands through 'screen'... not bad as an appraoch anyway
2014-07-12T20:56:43Z stassats: miles from slime
2014-07-12T21:00:49Z moore33: Inferior-lisp does (did?) that.
2014-07-12T21:00:59Z moore33: It's pretty grim.
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2014-07-12T21:05:46Z francogrex: it's nothing impressive; it was just FYI
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2014-07-12T21:32:38Z drmeister: Does the test on line 46 look like a typo?    This is from the ECL source code.   (or (listp object) (vector object))      It seems to me that it should read (or (listp object) (VECTORP object))   https://gist.github.com/drmeister/c8c75e60d6478d01f291
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2014-07-12T21:33:32Z stassats: it is
2014-07-12T21:34:04Z drmeister: (vector object) will always be true as a generalized boolean
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2014-07-12T21:34:21Z drmeister: stassats: You say that it is a typo?
2014-07-12T21:34:38Z stassats: maybe it's a ruse!
2014-07-12T21:34:42Z Bike: yeah that looks like a typo.
2014-07-12T21:35:11Z stassats: and i can fix it
2014-07-12T21:35:47Z drmeister: stassats: You can fix it in the source code?   Or should I email whoever is maintaining ecl these days.
2014-07-12T21:35:55Z stassats: i can
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2014-07-12T21:36:29Z drmeister: Great - there appears to be an identical typo on line 665 of predlib.lsp
2014-07-12T21:36:41Z drmeister: stassats: Did you take over ECL or are you funning around?
2014-07-12T21:36:53Z stassats: neither!
2014-07-12T21:38:34Z drmeister: Alrighty then.
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2014-07-12T21:39:24Z drmeister: I'll change it in my sources and recompile.     I can't directly use the ECL source anymore - I have too many #+clasp in my copy.
2014-07-12T21:39:54Z drmeister: Occasionally I emacs M-x ediff them.
2014-07-12T21:40:35Z stassats: ok, fixed now
2014-07-12T21:40:55Z drmeister: How do you do that?
2014-07-12T21:41:01Z stassats: can't say i'm the fan of (system::coerce 1 'string) => Cannot coerce 1 to type (OR (ARRAY BASE-CHAR ...) ...).
2014-07-12T21:41:03Z drmeister: Oh - it's github right?
2014-07-12T21:41:28Z stassats: with a few keyboard strokes, i would guess
2014-07-12T21:41:56Z drmeister: See - that's why I don't ask things like this very often.    I don't expect straightforward answers.
2014-07-12T21:44:07Z kristof: Didn't the maintainer of ECL say he wasn't actively developing it anymore?
2014-07-12T21:44:16Z stassats: he did
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2014-07-12T21:44:59Z kristof: So that leaves Clozure, SBCL, the enterprise tools, and maybe MOCL as the most actively developed, full featured lisp implementations? As far as I can tell, and I'm usually wrong.
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2014-07-12T21:47:43Z |3b| had the impression mkcl is maintained, not that i've heard of anyone using it
2014-07-12T21:48:27Z stassats: i had a cl-ppcre bug report for mkcl
2014-07-12T21:48:54Z |3b| also isn't sure if MOCL is "full featured", though it is probably a reasonable choice for its niche
2014-07-12T21:48:58Z stassats: (by a third party)
2014-07-12T21:49:22Z kristof: |3b|: Last I checked it had almost all of the standard implemented.
2014-07-12T21:49:40Z |3b|: kristof: "all of the standard
2014-07-12T21:49:46Z kristof: |3b|: And even if it doesn't, it occupies that niche so well that it can be forgiven :P
2014-07-12T21:49:49Z |3b|: sounds like "minimally featured"
2014-07-12T21:50:21Z stassats: and i also made the coerce error to report the original type, not the expanded mess
2014-07-12T21:50:21Z |3b|: right, not sure i'd want "full featured" there
2014-07-12T21:50:27Z kristof: Guess you're right.
2014-07-12T21:50:31Z stassats: and gotta love &aux aux
2014-07-12T21:51:00Z stassats: |3b|: what if it uses only the things required?
2014-07-12T21:51:19Z |3b|: stassats: what do you mean?
2014-07-12T21:51:35Z stassats: if it's featured as much as you want it to
2014-07-12T21:51:37Z stassats: is it?
2014-07-12T21:52:08Z |3b| doesn't know
2014-07-12T21:53:22Z kristof: Oh, MOCL is also for OSX? I wonder how it compares to SBCL on that platform
2014-07-12T21:53:31Z |3b| likes cross compilers for that sort of thing rather than running a full lisp, so "not full featured" is sort of a feature i want
2014-07-12T21:54:05Z |3b|: where "that sort of thing" is writing applications for phones/tablets
2014-07-12T21:54:54Z |3b|: not that i wouldn't also use ccl/sbcl on them if i had better phone/tablet
2014-07-12T21:54:58Z Fare: MOCL doesn't support ASDF 3, but a hacked version of ASDF 2.
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2014-07-12T21:55:30Z |3b|: any idea if it does cffi or any ffi?
2014-07-12T21:55:40Z Fare: I told wes how he could hack ASDF 3 into a cross-compilation engine, and included details in the ASDF TODO file.
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2014-07-12T21:57:21Z |3b|: cffi support is probably the main intersection of "features i'd want in something like mocl", and "features i'd include in 'full featured'"
2014-07-12T21:59:04Z drmeister: ASDF doesn't download packages does it?   That's for quick-lisp - right?
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2014-07-12T21:59:08Z kristof: |3b|: MOCL interfaces very well with objective C, that's a good replacement
2014-07-12T21:59:21Z kristof: And Java
2014-07-12T21:59:21Z |3b|: kristof: for what?
2014-07-12T21:59:34Z kristof: |3b|: iOS, OSX, and Android development
2014-07-12T21:59:42Z kristof: drmeister: right
2014-07-12T21:59:43Z stassats: android and objective c?
2014-07-12T21:59:55Z kristof: stassats: Android and Java :P
2014-07-12T22:00:13Z |3b|: neither of which helps me call opengl es as far as i know
2014-07-12T22:01:02Z kristof: Most mobile developers don't call opengles either
2014-07-12T22:01:15Z |3b|: which also doesn't help me :p
2014-07-12T22:01:44Z stassats: you mean all those games are in rendered in java?
2014-07-12T22:01:49Z |3b|: since 99% of what i'd want to write on a phone that i couldn't do from a web page involves opengl es
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2014-07-12T22:02:06Z kristof: People play games? :P
2014-07-12T22:02:22Z kristof: I'll never understand the mobile game industry
2014-07-12T22:02:23Z |3b|: trying to port cl-opengl to android/ios lisps in particular
2014-07-12T22:02:30Z p_l: kristof: did MOCL gain ability to call out to Java?
2014-07-12T22:03:01Z |3b|: kristof: you should probably get someone else to manage your money then :p
2014-07-12T22:03:06Z kristof: I read a figure somewhere that a huge percentage of the profits earned from those games come from about 1% of the market
2014-07-12T22:03:12Z |3b|: mobile game industry is pretty obvious
2014-07-12T22:03:29Z |3b|: maybe you mean you don't identify with the people in the mobile game market?
2014-07-12T22:03:43Z p_l: kristof: sounds like generic mobile app industry stat
2014-07-12T22:03:58Z p_l: worst stuff though is outrageous pay-to-win schemes
2014-07-12T22:04:01Z |3b|: yeah, probably true of a lot of markets
2014-07-12T22:04:10Z p_l: EA pretty much killed mobile Dungeon Keeper with it
2014-07-12T22:04:14Z kristof: p_l: Dunno.
2014-07-12T22:04:32Z stassats: phones aren't useful for much besides games and stuff
2014-07-12T22:04:33Z kristof: p_l: I was just assuming that it did in the same way it interfaces with existing Obj C code.
2014-07-12T22:04:40Z kristof: I would have to pay to find out such a thing :P
2014-07-12T22:05:00Z kristof: Woah, I absolutely disagree
2014-07-12T22:05:20Z stassats: they aren't even useful as bookends anymore
2014-07-12T22:05:45Z |3b|: they are useful for backup internet when landlines go down :p
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2014-07-12T22:08:14Z kristof: On my phone, I'm checking social media, reading RSS feeds, watching videos, calling/texting friends/acquaintances/family, checking email, taking pictures
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2014-07-12T22:08:41Z stassats: you just get distracted by all the nonsense
2014-07-12T22:08:43Z kristof: I also read books in electronic format while I'm on the train or waiting for something (although that's kind of annoying given the screen size)
2014-07-12T22:08:59Z kristof: Or I might be reading a white paper, which I do quite often
2014-07-12T22:09:40Z |3b| thinks they are also useful for getting off topic
2014-07-12T22:09:55Z |3b|: or maybe thats in the "not useful" category
2014-07-12T22:09:59Z stassats: i revise my statement to "games, maps, and stuff"
2014-07-12T22:10:25Z kristof: stassats: Is that nonsense, though?
2014-07-12T22:10:26Z stassats: maps are useful, i even want to write my own map in CL, because everything sucks
2014-07-12T22:11:18Z stassats: it seems like everybody adds (or usually don't) buttons and menu entries without actually trying to use them
2014-07-12T22:11:32Z stassats: not talking about phones, but on the desktop
2014-07-12T22:11:46Z kristof: ...what about google maps?
2014-07-12T22:11:58Z kristof: I didn't know people use anything other than that for navigation
2014-07-12T22:12:18Z stassats: i use openstreetmap
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2014-07-12T22:13:16Z stassats: and since it's open, you can build your own everything
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2014-07-12T22:13:37Z kristof: Oh, that does look cool
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2014-07-12T22:14:19Z kristof: But switching to openstreetmaps sort of screwed Apple, I recall
2014-07-12T22:14:36Z zacts: hi lispy lispers
2014-07-12T22:14:38Z stassats: they didn't switch to openstreetmaps
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2014-07-12T22:16:24Z stassats: probably rendering the whole map in lisp is not an easy good start, perhaps displaying already rendered tiles is easier plus a better interface
2014-07-12T22:17:38Z |3b|: probably want both, render in lisp if needed but usually display from cache
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2014-07-12T22:18:07Z |3b|: since you will need to be able to render specific components at will anyway, for example when highlighting a route or adding overlays
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2014-07-12T22:18:49Z |3b|: (unless you are targeting browser, in which case you might be able to draw them on browser)
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2014-07-12T22:44:18Z joe-w-bimedina: what does the :class keyword mean/do in this cffi:defcstruct: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/575552d632a6e1b5251d
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2014-07-12T23:24:52Z Quadrescence: hm, it would be nice if there was a standard/efficient way to extend the numeric tower in lisp
2014-07-12T23:34:20Z pjb: Quadrescence: you could as well address the more generic question of introducing classes between a super class and a subclass.
2014-07-12T23:35:14Z Quadrescence: yes
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2014-07-12T23:38:01Z kristof: pjb: The class heirarchy list is available as a tree through MOP, isn't it?
2014-07-12T23:39:26Z pjb: an acyclic directed graph, more precisely.
2014-07-12T23:39:36Z kristof: right
2014-07-12T23:39:56Z kristof: This sounds like a dirty hack but you could always just splice classes right into that dag
2014-07-12T23:40:20Z pjb: Now, of course, in CL there are both classes and types.
2014-07-12T23:41:48Z kristof: Isn't there a class for the built-in-types that you can't subclass?
2014-07-12T23:42:03Z pjb: Yes, in CL, you cannot.
2014-07-12T23:42:07Z Bike: built-in-class
2014-07-12T23:42:19Z kristof: I don't think it's built-in-class, I think it's built-in-type
2014-07-12T23:42:31Z pjb: We're talking about extensions here!
2014-07-12T23:42:36Z Bike: clhs built-in-class
2014-07-12T23:42:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_built_.htm
2014-07-12T23:42:59Z Bike: (integer 7) is a built-in type but probably not a class, sorta thing
2014-07-12T23:43:19Z kristof: Ooooh, that makes more sense.
2014-07-12T23:43:41Z kristof: What kind of numerics would one add, anyway?
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2014-07-12T23:44:38Z pjb: reals.
2014-07-12T23:44:41Z pjb: eg. from realib.
2014-07-12T23:45:05Z Bike: quaternions!
2014-07-12T23:45:11Z pjb: octonions!
2014-07-12T23:45:32Z pjb: complexes of real.
2014-07-12T23:46:04Z raymondillo:  /part
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2014-07-12T23:46:09Z pjb: It seems to me you could easily add types for existing classes.
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2014-07-12T23:46:23Z pjb: So adding a real type for the real class should be doable without breaking much.
2014-07-12T23:46:27Z Quadrescence: well i'm working on my MPFR bindings to add big-floats
2014-07-12T23:46:45Z Quadrescence: and theyre just so inconvenient to use with the swaths of existing math code written in lisp
2014-07-12T23:47:12Z kristof: what's that thing called that I was looking at
2014-07-12T23:47:34Z kristof: It was a lisp dedicated to scientific computation
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2014-07-12T23:49:53Z kristof: Aha! SciCL
2014-07-12T23:50:42Z Quadrescence: that is not "a lisp", that is common lisp
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2014-07-12T23:51:33Z kristof: Right, right
2014-07-12T23:51:57Z kristof: I thought they defined a bunch of their own numeric types but apparently not
2014-07-12T23:52:46Z Quadrescence: Sadly the only implementation with embedded arbitrary precision floats is CLISP
2014-07-12T23:53:00Z pjb: This is only floats, not reals.
2014-07-12T23:53:57Z Quadrescence: pjb, what?
2014-07-12T23:56:34Z Quadrescence: of course representing arbitrary precision reals is not possible
2014-07-12T23:57:12Z Bike: he means computable reals, like that one system
2014-07-12T23:57:49Z Quadrescence: this system https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/computable-reals
2014-07-12T23:58:53Z Bike: yeah
2014-07-12T23:59:02Z Bike: i mean, that's different from floats, and neither represents all reals, of course
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2014-07-12T23:59:25Z Bike: i guess floats do if you consider them as ranges. well. whatever
2014-07-12T23:59:54Z kristof: seems like a niche
2014-07-13T00:00:10Z kristof: I'd like to see common lisp beat out matlab someday, though
2014-07-13T00:00:10Z Bike: computable reals?
2014-07-13T00:00:12Z kristof: yes
2014-07-13T00:00:15Z Bike: well, yes
2014-07-13T00:00:15Z Quadrescence: floats represent reals perfectly fine. they just dont represent them on a uniform grid for a given precision, but rather on a logarithmic grid
2014-07-13T00:00:25Z Bike: computables would be pretty useless to matlab
2014-07-13T00:00:37Z kristof shrugs
2014-07-13T00:00:50Z kristof: I'm reading up on the lock-free FIFO queues that SB implements. Neat stuff :^)
2014-07-13T00:01:08Z kristof: I was worried I was going to have to write my own. Now I can just declare my code SBCL-only and call it a day :P
2014-07-13T00:01:14Z Bike: steel battallion? oh
2014-07-13T00:01:21Z kristof: errrr SBCL
2014-07-13T00:01:23Z kristof: sorry, ha
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2014-07-13T00:55:17Z didi: SBCL's sb-concurrency is great.
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2014-07-13T01:05:54Z gt: hi is anyone in this channel usin cl-facebook ?
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2014-07-13T01:43:32Z drmeister: Congratulations for trying ASDF on an operating system
2014-07-13T01:43:33Z drmeister: that is neither Unix, nor Windows, nor Genera, nor even old MacOS.
2014-07-13T01:43:33Z drmeister: Now you port it.
2014-07-13T01:43:43Z drmeister: Fare:   I just hit this.
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2014-07-13T01:47:33Z drmeister: Should I have the *feature* :unix on linux and :darwin on OS X?
2014-07-13T01:47:44Z drmeister: s/have/define/g
2014-07-13T01:48:59Z drmeister: I believe I shall.
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2014-07-13T02:15:24Z inklesspen: drmeister: on sbcl on OS X, *features* includes :OS-UNIX, :UNIX, :BSD, and :DARWIN. on sbcl on debian, *features* includes :OS-UNIX, :UNIX, and :LINUX
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2014-07-13T02:23:15Z drmeister: Thank you.
2014-07-13T02:23:25Z drmeister: I set up those features.
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2014-07-13T02:45:44Z drmeister: I have a flaw in my environments that causes problems with LET* expressions with duplicate variable names.   https://gist.github.com/drmeister/e6a1712ac3a2cb48deed    I've got to figure out how to fix this.
2014-07-13T02:46:12Z pjb: drmeister: darwin is a unix system, so it should have :unix too :-)
2014-07-13T02:46:41Z drmeister: I gave darwin systems the :UNIX feature.
2014-07-13T02:47:02Z pjb: drmeister: where you can have a lot of fun, is on MS-Windows.  If you compile ecl in cygwin, is it still a unix system?
2014-07-13T02:48:02Z pjb: drmeister: what about (let ((a 1)) (let ((a (1+ a))) a)) ?  If that work, then let* should work (it can be a macro expanding to the former!
2014-07-13T02:48:31Z Bike: except for the wonderfulness of decl parsing
2014-07-13T02:50:15Z drmeister: I don't have time to dig into environments at this point - so I will do something I rarely do - change the code rather than fix the bug in my system:  I changed it to this:  https://gist.github.com/drmeister/78614b3241cfe4dfaf50
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2014-07-13T02:54:50Z Bike: ew
2014-07-13T02:58:13Z drmeister: Don't judge me!!!!
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2014-07-13T03:01:02Z drmeister: There - I created an issue in my (currently private) clasp github repository about it.
2014-07-13T03:01:52Z drmeister: Environments are a can of worms that I can't afford to open at the moment.  I could break all sorts of stuff.
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2014-07-13T03:08:05Z pjb: drmeister: (shadow 'let*) (defmacro let* (bindings &rest body) (if (null bindings) `(let () ,@body) `(let (,(first bindings)) (let* ,(rest bindings) ,@body))))
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2014-07-13T03:12:02Z drmeister: pjb: Are there any other consequences to my environments having this limitation?   Does the problem only show up in LET*?   I know you don't know my implementation details but reasoning from your understanding of Common Lisp.
2014-07-13T03:12:45Z Bike: i'm not sure i understand what this has to do with environments
2014-07-13T03:13:15Z Bike: you don't need environments to have multiple variables of the same name, you just need to fix let* to nest correctly
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2014-07-13T03:22:34Z drmeister: I have an assertion in my lexical environment code that triggers if one tries to create a binding for variables with identical names.   Back when I wrote this I didn't know that names could be bound multiple times.  The problem is in the interaction between the LET* code, the environment and a thing I call a LambdaListHandler that binds values.
2014-07-13T03:23:09Z drmeister: It might be as simple as removing the assertion but I have a feeling it isn't.
2014-07-13T03:23:19Z Bike: so ((lambda (x) ((lambda (x) 14) 9)) 10) fails too?
2014-07-13T03:23:24Z Guthur`: cffi on windows seems to have cffi:*foreign-library-directories* set to nil, is this normal modus operandi for cffi
2014-07-13T03:23:34Z Guthur`: ...because it seems to have the consequence that cffi can not find any libraries by default
2014-07-13T03:23:59Z Bike: Guthur`: http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/_002aforeign_002dlibrary_002ddirectories_002a.html read
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2014-07-13T03:26:10Z Guthur`: ah, implementation dependent
2014-07-13T03:26:23Z Guthur`: SBCL on windows doesn't provide it
2014-07-13T03:26:30Z Bike: read better
2014-07-13T03:26:39Z Bike: "You should not have to use this variable"
2014-07-13T03:30:42Z Guthur`: yeah i did read that but I DO have to use it with SBCL on windows
2014-07-13T03:30:54Z Guthur`: hence the "ah, implementation dependent"
2014-07-13T03:32:10Z Guthur`: there is really no need to be condescending
2014-07-13T03:33:59Z Bike: Sorry
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2014-07-13T04:25:06Z drmeister: ASDF defines functions DUMP-IMAGE and RESTORE-IMAGE for dumping and restoring the CL image - what is that for?
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2014-07-13T04:27:22Z drmeister: There is nothing in the CL standard relating to saving or restoring images is there?
2014-07-13T04:27:56Z drmeister: Which would explain why this code contains so many feature tests.
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2014-07-13T04:32:36Z pjb: yes.
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2014-07-13T04:32:57Z phf: my application depends on some configuration options that must be provided by the user, what's a typical way of handling something like that (besides ~/.foo-settings.lisp
2014-07-13T04:34:13Z phf: specifically i saw some code do things like (symbol-value (intern "FOO-PARAMETER-VALUE" :cl-user)), is that a common approach?
2014-07-13T04:34:51Z pjb: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:sexp-file-contents "~/.config/your-app.cfg" :if-does-not-exist nil)
2014-07-13T04:35:44Z pjb: phf: it has some meaning.
2014-07-13T04:36:14Z pjb: You seem to be confused about deployment.  What have you decided?
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2014-07-13T04:37:30Z drmeister: Wow - I did just have to turn off that assertion  - now this works:   (let* ((x 1) (x (+ 1 x)) (x (+ 1 x))) (print x))
2014-07-13T04:37:35Z drmeister: --> 3
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2014-07-13T04:37:50Z drmeister: I'm a cheenius
2014-07-13T04:38:17Z drmeister: All this bloody time I had that stupid assertion in there.
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2014-07-13T05:08:37Z theos: heh
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2014-07-13T06:01:16Z drmeister: Do most/all of the Common Lisp implementations have the ability to save the current running image and then reload it?
2014-07-13T06:01:53Z drmeister: How does that even work?   If I'm at the repl and I SAVE-IMAGE  - when I load the image it will dump me back at the REPL won't it?
2014-07-13T06:03:35Z hitecnologys: drmeister: it saves complete dump of memory and then just loads it, IIRC.
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2014-07-13T06:06:05Z drmeister: That's going to be interesting to implement.
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2014-07-13T06:24:25Z Guthur`: drmeister: i'd imagine it could be as simplistic as serializing the current environment
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2014-07-13T06:45:02Z genode: I installed slime following these instructions: http://yoo2080.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/how-to-install-just-one-package-from-melpa-and-not-others/#sec-2  I am getting "Searching for program: permission denied, lisp"
2014-07-13T06:45:12Z genode: when I do M-x slime
2014-07-13T06:45:54Z genode: it says on another page "it may mean that your Emacs init file did not make sure slime-setup to be called, or that the value of inferior-lisp-program is lisp." referring to the error.  but I don't know how to fix it
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2014-07-13T06:47:39Z PuercoPop: genode: what is the value of inferior-lisp-program? (use C-h v to find out)
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2014-07-13T06:49:12Z genode: PuercoPop: lisp
2014-07-13T06:50:04Z PuercoPop: now type lisp in a shell, what do you see?
2014-07-13T06:50:12Z genode: PuercoPop: probably nothing
2014-07-13T06:50:47Z genode: PuercoPop: not a command
2014-07-13T06:51:04Z PuercoPop: See the problem now?
2014-07-13T06:51:14Z genode: yes.  how can I fix it?
2014-07-13T06:51:56Z PuercoPop: (setq inferior-lisp-program "/path/to/your/cl/implementation")
2014-07-13T06:52:24Z genode: PuercoPop: I have (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl")  in my _emacs
2014-07-13T06:52:35Z PuercoPop: btw it is easier to install slime through quicklisp http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
2014-07-13T06:52:38Z genode: PuercoPop: so I guess _emacs is not getting loaded
2014-07-13T06:52:51Z PuercoPop: it appears so
2014-07-13T06:52:54Z genode: PuercoPop: quicklisp I think has slime 2.7, SBCL 1.2.1 doesn't work well with it
2014-07-13T06:53:23Z genode: PuercoPop: https://github.com/slime/slime/issues/168
2014-07-13T06:53:31Z PuercoPop: just eval it in the scratch buffer. (you are right about that)
2014-07-13T06:55:25Z genode: PuercoPop: slime works now.  cheers!  I'll have to figure out this .emacs / _emacs drivel now
2014-07-13T06:56:36Z PuercoPop: what is the path of your init.el?
2014-07-13T06:57:48Z genode: PuercoPop: hmm, can't find such file
2014-07-13T06:58:39Z Quadrescence: I'm sure this question has been asked a million times but I haven't been around. Does anyone know if threads are being worked on for SBCL ARM, or what the most pressing issues are currently?
2014-07-13T06:58:44Z PuercoPop: I mean your emacs startup file
2014-07-13T07:00:18Z genode: PuercoPop: I just installed emacs and sbcl, then slime from MELPA, I haven't done anything else so far, not sure what you mean (sorry I don't really know all that much)
2014-07-13T07:00:47Z genode: PuercoPop: I'm on 64bit win7
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2014-07-13T07:03:34Z PuercoPop: I know the paths that emacs looks for an init file only in unixes, just ask on #emacs.
2014-07-13T07:04:15Z genode: I just googled a little and it appears it must be under $HOME
2014-07-13T07:04:36Z genode: I'll try to go with google from here, thanks for the help!
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2014-07-13T07:09:19Z genode: FWIW home is C:\users\<username>\appdata\roaming on win vista/7/2008
2014-07-13T07:09:25Z PuercoPop: genode: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Find-Init.html#Find-Init
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2014-07-13T08:07:03Z joe-w-bimedina: is there a function that returns true if a variable has changed since the last time  the function was run
2014-07-13T08:08:19Z stassats: why one earth would there be such a thing?
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2014-07-13T08:12:02Z joe-w-bimedina: just wondering, I'm doing live code editing and i have 4 variables that I change from the repl, if on variable gets changed I would like the program to go to a specific block, related to one of the four  variables, of a cond statement and stay there and if another of the 4 variables gets changed I would like the the program to go to its specific block and stay there.  I'm trying to think how to express that
2014-07-13T08:12:15Z joe-w-bimedina: *one variable
2014-07-13T08:12:25Z PuercoPop: no, but you could easily implement that with an after method on the accesor for a given slot
2014-07-13T08:13:13Z joe-w-bimedina: ok I'll study up on after methods, thanks
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2014-07-13T08:34:21Z moore33: Tell me to go look it up... but does redefining a class force reinitialization of class allocated slots?
2014-07-13T08:35:03Z stassats: i would say no, then would say to look it up
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2014-07-13T08:35:17Z moore33: :)
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2014-07-13T08:36:33Z stassats: since non shared slots aren't reinitialized either
2014-07-13T08:37:11Z moore33: looks like it is retained.
2014-07-13T08:37:13Z moore33: hmm
2014-07-13T08:38:00Z moore33: Actually, no problem.
2014-07-13T08:39:14Z PuercoPop: moore33 iirc you can specify the function to update the slots and it is guaranteed to be called before the next access/manipulation of the redefined class (although not eagerly)
2014-07-13T08:41:15Z moore33: PuercoPop:Yeah, you're right if I add a method to SHARED-INITIALIZE or something... but I don't think that's necessary for what I want to do.
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2014-07-13T09:01:40Z PuercoPop: I found a comment[1] from Xach mentioning that sbcl comes with a queue and a priority queue, how ever I now only find a queue. Has the priority queue been removed? [1]: http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/2008/06/heap-of-possibilities.html
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2014-07-13T09:03:57Z stassats: no
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2014-07-13T09:32:58Z Guthur`: is there any functional reactive libraries, or something similar
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2014-07-13T09:52:08Z loz1: hi, does anybody use optima? why does (optima:match '(1 1) ((list x x) x)) throws Non-linear pattern: (CONS X (CONS X NIL)) ?
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2014-07-13T09:54:43Z stassats: because that's how it works
2014-07-13T09:55:25Z stassats: (optima:match '(1 1) ((list x (equal x)) x)) seems to be the solution
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2014-07-13T11:00:11Z samebchase: normally we use #+sbcl for implementation specific code. Let's say I have #+sbcl (...) and then  a #+ccl (...). I now want to have a similar piece of code for 'all other impls other than sbcl/ccl'
2014-07-13T11:00:36Z samebchase: What's the best way of doing that?
2014-07-13T11:00:42Z jdz: #-(or sbcl ccl)
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2014-07-13T11:01:17Z samebchase: okay, so that negates the or ?
2014-07-13T11:01:29Z jdz: what?
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2014-07-13T11:01:40Z jdz: you have #+ and #-
2014-07-13T11:02:27Z samebchase: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw61/CLHS/Body/02_dhr.htm okay makes sense, thanks
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2014-07-13T11:50:30Z genode: are older (< 1.2.1) SBCL versions (windows 64bit) available for download anywhere?
2014-07-13T11:51:19Z joe-w-bimedina: http://www.sbcl.org/all-news.html
2014-07-13T11:51:44Z joe-w-bimedina: looks like a good link
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2014-07-13T11:53:50Z joe-w-bimedina: I searched for "sbcl old versions windows" google...this almost never fails. You just search for software name and old versions and your there
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2014-07-13T11:54:14Z genode: joe-w-bimedina: I actually looked through the sourceforge before but I only checked 1.2.0 and 1.1.18 and determined no they aren't.  looks like 1.1.17 was the newest before 1.2.1 available as windows binary
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2014-07-13T11:57:00Z genode: does 1.2.1 generally work, I'm having problems with it and I'm not sure what's up
2014-07-13T12:00:11Z genode: I think I also messed up slime somehow, can't compile forms in the editor.  but SBCL 1.2.1 hangs up on me without emacs/slime too
2014-07-13T12:01:35Z joe-w-bimedina: on windows I went as far as 1.8...this is kind of a lengthy tutorial, but it should work on the latest version. just go until you hit the SBCL part and complete every step: http://wnetai.wordpress.com/how-to-install-gsll_the-gnu-scientific-library-for-lisp-on-windows-7-and-windows-8/
2014-07-13T12:01:37Z genode: well I thought I messed up slime, or there was something wrong with the connection because it just kept polling, but then I found that my program would get stuck after launching an SDL window outside emacs/slime
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2014-07-13T12:02:19Z joe-w-bimedina: if it is polling go to inferior-lisp to see the error
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2014-07-13T12:02:55Z genode: sometimes there was no error, just nothing happened.  but I'm not sure if I looked in the right buffers, I'm new to all this
2014-07-13T12:03:05Z genode: I'll check the link, thanks
2014-07-13T12:03:52Z joe-w-bimedina: I tested that tutorial 2 months ago...it should work...just look in inferior-lisp whenever its on polling...you want to check your .sbclrc file first when it does that unless your a developer
2014-07-13T12:04:12Z joe-w-bimedina: to make sure its correct
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2014-07-13T12:05:35Z joe-w-bimedina: oh yeah the slime part of the tutorial is after sbcl...so just go until you hit mingw and stop....unless you want GSLL
2014-07-13T12:05:50Z genode: alright, cheers
2014-07-13T12:06:04Z joe-w-bimedina: same to you:)
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2014-07-13T12:23:54Z ura: I UCW (Uncommon Web) project ready for production? I'm trying to use it (latest from quicklisp) but it does not export important symbols (defentry-point, make-url-dispatcher).
2014-07-13T12:25:12Z ura: demo.lisp from UCW is working because it's already ucw-standard package, but for other packages UCW does not export certain symbols
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2014-07-13T12:27:35Z ura: Also I'm confused, in demo scripts defentry-point is used, but I've been read in some document that defentry-point is obsolete and :dispatchers should be used instead
2014-07-13T12:32:05Z hitecnologys: ura: try using RESTAS.
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2014-07-13T12:35:56Z ura: thanks for suggestion, I know about restas by archimag but I thought it's traditional framework (without CPS), I'm thinking to try weblocks instead of UCW, but maybe I'm giving up too early
2014-07-13T12:36:32Z ``Erik: ura: there's a #ucw channel, I can try to answer some of your questions there :)
2014-07-13T12:36:49Z ura: Ah great :-) thank you Erik!
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2014-07-13T12:45:35Z Xach: Dang it, everything was building fine, and I wanted to release today, and there's a new problem with cl-ply
2014-07-13T12:45:44Z Xach will still release today but with an old cl-ply
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2014-07-13T12:49:05Z Guthur`: Xach: out of interest do you inform the package author when there is an issue?
2014-07-13T12:52:24Z Xach: Guthur`: https://github.com/takagi/cl-ply/issues/1
2014-07-13T12:53:27Z Guthur`: cool, should hopefully drive quality improvements across libraries, at least in terms of buildability
2014-07-13T12:54:16Z Xach: that has been my experience so far.
2014-07-13T12:54:21Z Xach: cl-test-grid is a big help too
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2014-07-13T14:41:00Z dim: is it possible in defstruct to specify that a slot is of type list of something?
2014-07-13T14:41:37Z jdz: dim: you'd have to use SATISFIES
2014-07-13T14:41:43Z H4ns: dim: it is possible, but what do you want to achieve by that?  you know that type declarations are only used for optimization purposes, right?
2014-07-13T14:41:44Z jdz: and provide your own function
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2014-07-13T14:42:02Z dim: H4ns: here it's more about trying to achieve self-documented code
2014-07-13T14:42:11Z phadthai: you can, but it's unlikely to be enforced or to increase performance in the case of a list/cons
2014-07-13T14:42:12Z H4ns: dim: i see, ok.
2014-07-13T14:42:21Z jdz: H4ns: they can be used for documentation, and while developing
2014-07-13T14:42:52Z H4ns: jdz: i just wanted to make sure that dim understands the restrictions of cl type declarations.
2014-07-13T14:43:18Z dim: I'n not sure I do, but I know here I'm not after anything fancy ;-)
2014-07-13T14:44:25Z H4ns: dim: if what you're interested in is documentation, then type definitions may make some sense.
2014-07-13T14:45:30Z dim: I'll first try to have something running then
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2014-07-13T14:46:04Z dim: I hoped for something as simple as (defstruct foo (x nil :type (list 'bar)))
2014-07-13T14:47:14Z H4ns: dim: i'd recommend defclass and :documentation for that purpose.
2014-07-13T14:48:36Z hitecnologys: dim: I agree with H4ns. If you're not after structures, DEFCLASS suites better.
2014-07-13T14:48:59Z dim: what I'm doing here is writing code to parse IBM IXF file format, so the structures are following http://www-01.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSEPGG_10.5.0/com.ibm.db2.luw.admin.dm.doc/doc/r0004668.html and such
2014-07-13T14:49:23Z dim: if you have specific advice around reading structured binary (alike) data from file, I'm all ears
2014-07-13T14:49:40Z hitecnologys: There was this binary-types thing.
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2014-07-13T14:50:02Z dim: IXFHRECL The record length indicator. A 6-byte character representation of an integer value specifying the length, in bytes
2014-07-13T14:50:04Z hitecnologys: I'm not sure it's maintained and if it even works, but I remember using it once.
2014-07-13T14:50:28Z dim: I don't think a normal binary type thingy is going to cope with integer value that you actually have to parse
2014-07-13T14:50:34Z dim: maybe it would that said
2014-07-13T14:51:15Z hitecnologys: Then you might take a look at JAMS code. It has some binary data parsing capabilities. Code is not perfect, though.
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2014-07-13T14:51:27Z hitecnologys: s/might/might want to/
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2014-07-13T14:52:30Z hitecnologys: dim: here you go: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/JAMS/blob/develop/src/types.lisp
2014-07-13T14:52:47Z dim: thanks!
2014-07-13T14:53:36Z hitecnologys: This file also contains some traces of it: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/JAMS/blob/develop/src/packets.lisp
2014-07-13T14:54:14Z dim: then there's https://github.com/fjames86/packet/
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2014-07-13T14:56:43Z hitecnologys: Does it allow defining your own types?
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2014-07-13T15:01:36Z hitecnologys: Bleh, doesn't seem to. I was hoping I may use it in JAMS.
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2014-07-13T15:05:01Z drmeister: Fare: How important is DUMP-IMAGE to ASDF?
2014-07-13T15:06:24Z drmeister: It will take some time to figure out how to implement DUMP-IMAGE in Clasp.
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2014-07-13T15:07:19Z phadthai: I also reinvented a similar system (of course), although unfortunately currently closed-source http://paste.lisp.org/display/143157
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2014-07-13T15:09:38Z Fare: drmeister, ECL has create-image instead
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2014-07-13T15:09:50Z Fare: drmeister, that said, if you can get dump-image working, it's cool, too
2014-07-13T15:10:19Z Fare: if you have neither, then it's bad
2014-07-13T15:10:25Z Fare: if you have both, more power to you
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2014-07-13T15:11:02Z Fare: but it's OK to be missing a feature to begin with
2014-07-13T15:11:19Z phadthai: I agree, one of both is very acceptable
2014-07-13T15:11:25Z Fare: let's say having either dump-image or create-image is important, but not essential
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2014-07-13T15:11:45Z Fare: that said, about every implementation has either — why not clasp?
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2014-07-13T15:22:05Z Guthur`: drmeister: surely your implementation has some structured representation of the current environment (image), would it not be serializable?
2014-07-13T15:22:08Z loz1: are optional arguments allowed in defmethod?
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2014-07-13T15:22:18Z loz1: i cant figure out how to use them
2014-07-13T15:22:45Z Shinmera: you can use optional arguments but you can't specialise on them
2014-07-13T15:22:50Z Shinmera: they work like in ordinary functions
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2014-07-13T15:23:17Z loz1: Shinmera: i'm trying
2014-07-13T15:23:17Z loz1: (defmethod roll ((object dice-set) &optional (how-many 5)) ...
2014-07-13T15:23:27Z Shinmera: Yes?
2014-07-13T15:23:40Z loz1: and get
2014-07-13T15:23:40Z loz1: The generic function #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION ROLL (1)> takes
2014-07-13T15:23:40Z loz1: 2 required arguments; was asked to find a method with
2014-07-13T15:23:40Z loz1: specializers (#<STANDARD-CLASS DICE-SET>)
2014-07-13T15:23:40Z loz1:    [Condition of type SB-PCL::FIND-METHOD-LENGTH-MISMATCH]
2014-07-13T15:23:50Z Shinmera: yes
2014-07-13T15:23:58Z Shinmera: because you don't have a generic function that matches the signature
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2014-07-13T15:24:34Z loz1: mm thats interesting
2014-07-13T15:24:47Z Shinmera: you previously probably defined a method with a different arguments list
2014-07-13T15:24:53Z Shinmera: which implicitly created a generic function for you
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2014-07-13T15:25:03Z Shinmera: now that you changed the method the generic function however stood the same
2014-07-13T15:25:04Z loz1: Shinmera: i dont have defgeneric at all :)
2014-07-13T15:25:11Z Shinmera: yeah it did it for you
2014-07-13T15:25:20Z Shinmera: because methods cannot exist without a matching generic function
2014-07-13T15:25:35Z loz1: oh, i see
2014-07-13T15:26:00Z loz1: so, can i write defgeneric manually now, and replace existing one?
2014-07-13T15:26:04Z Fare: libelf or some such could help with dump-image.
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2014-07-13T15:26:30Z Shinmera: loz1: you'll have to remove the methods first so you can change the arguments, but for the future it's good to get used to writing the generic function too, yes
2014-07-13T15:26:41Z Shinmera: loz1: first you'll have to remove the function with fmakunbound
2014-07-13T15:26:49Z Fare: Hell, if elk scheme could dump an image, or gcl, clasp probably can, too. But it's work.
2014-07-13T15:26:52Z Shinmera: loz1: or manually remove all methods (with slime-inspect f.e.)
2014-07-13T15:27:08Z Fare: or cmucl, or emacs
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2014-07-13T15:27:49Z Shinmera: I feel like next I should write a blog about generic functions and methods and all that because people seem so frequently confused by that
2014-07-13T15:28:12Z loz1: Shinmera: nice, it worked, thank you)
2014-07-13T15:29:06Z loz1: Shinmera: ye, i have to read something specific about clos
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2014-07-13T15:33:23Z loz1: Shinmera: are you using common lisp at work?
2014-07-13T15:34:12Z Shinmera: loz1: I'm a student still, so no. Just in my free time.
2014-07-13T15:34:57Z Shinmera: I'd definitely like to use it at work in the future though if that is ever possible
2014-07-13T15:35:45Z loz1: how did you decide to learn cl when there are all these pythons around?)
2014-07-13T15:36:57Z Guthur`: Shinmera: we might be hiring soon
2014-07-13T15:37:22Z Guthur`: you need to be willing to relocate to Australia though
2014-07-13T15:37:22Z Shinmera: Lisp always intrigued me and I was looking for new languages to learn at the time as I was tired of Java. I had used Python at my previous job and didn't approve of it, so there I was. I'm not sure how exactly I found PCL and got started with it, probably random amazon searches out of boredom.
2014-07-13T15:37:50Z Shinmera: Guthur`: Well I'll be stuck in university for some years still methinks.
2014-07-13T15:38:11Z Guthur`: ah missed the student part
2014-07-13T15:38:55Z Shinmera: Plus I don't know how I'd feel about getting hired with only a year of CL experience when there's probably much better qualified people out there, haha
2014-07-13T15:39:26Z Xach: It is best to get over that feeling
2014-07-13T15:39:32Z loz1: Guthur`:  we?
2014-07-13T15:39:33Z Guthur`: iindeed
2014-07-13T15:40:04Z loz1: i wonder that companies are hiring lispers
2014-07-13T15:40:13Z Shinmera: Xach: I don't know, I just don't want to appear better than I am.
2014-07-13T15:40:13Z loz1: for lisp programming especially
2014-07-13T15:40:15Z Guthur`: Xach is right, we would not turn down the right candidate for lack of professional experience
2014-07-13T15:40:45Z Guthur`: I got hired with exactly 0 years of CL experience
2014-07-13T15:41:11Z Guthur`: loz1: Accenture
2014-07-13T15:41:36Z Guthur`: of course all my opinions do not reflect Accenture blah de blah disclaimer
2014-07-13T15:41:50Z Xach: Shinmera: it is up to the people hiring to make that decision. just be honest.
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2014-07-13T15:42:19Z Xach: Shinmera: industry is not all that fancy when you get into it.
2014-07-13T15:42:36Z Philby: industry?
2014-07-13T15:42:39Z Shinmera: Xach: True enough, I suppose.
2014-07-13T15:43:09Z Guthur`: yeah, and all too often you find the University/Education part really doesn't provide you with what's actually important
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2014-07-13T15:43:57Z Shinmera: Guthur`: Sadly so. I'm in a fairly new interdisciplinary major here that I am hoping will bring me some more mixed experience than a standard CS degree would
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2014-07-13T15:45:50Z drmeister: Fare: Sorry - I got called away - I read what you wrote above.
2014-07-13T15:47:34Z loz1: Guthur`: if its not a secret, what are you using lisp for?
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2014-07-13T15:50:09Z drmeister: Fare: I don't have ECL's create-image - I don't use any part of ECL's byte-code compiler or their "C" source generator.
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2014-07-13T15:53:18Z drmeister: The environment that I have would be the LLVM Modules and an array of values that those Modules use.  I'll have to think on how to get access to them and serialize them.
2014-07-13T15:54:05Z drmeister: The serialization will be as a .so (Linux) or .bundle (OS X).
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2014-07-13T15:55:46Z Guthur`: LLVM can out put various representations of the IR, but i'm sure you know that
2014-07-13T15:56:08Z drmeister: I'll want to compile it to native code.
2014-07-13T15:56:20Z drmeister: LLVM compilation of IR -> native code is slow.
2014-07-13T15:56:52Z Guthur`: will clasp retain access to LLVM?
2014-07-13T15:56:58Z drmeister: Yes.
2014-07-13T15:57:02Z drmeister: It's integral.
2014-07-13T15:57:59Z Guthur`: how slow is slow?
2014-07-13T15:58:36Z Guthur`: not sure if anyone would really expect/care about uber performance from saving and loading images
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2014-07-13T15:59:31Z Guthur`: loz1: we sell an optimization solution
2014-07-13T16:00:00Z Guthur`: using Multi Variant Testing methodology
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2014-07-13T16:02:28Z drmeister: Slow enough that you don't want to wait for it when you start up the system.
2014-07-13T16:02:42Z drmeister: Give me a sec - I'll do some measurements.
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2014-07-13T16:04:54Z Guthur`: if you could implement a naive solution with out effecting the core performance of clasp, to satisfy ASDF requires you can then look to optimize later
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2014-07-13T16:08:06Z drmeister: Here's a dump of a compilation of the full system using a minimal system (a compiled version of the compiler - no CLOS) and generation of a fresh Common Lisp image:  3.2 minutes to recompile the minimal system (no CLOS) and 17 minutes to compile the full system (with CLOS).  https://gist.github.com/drmeister/9ede9718339566c054de
2014-07-13T16:08:37Z drmeister: This is on a retina MacBook Pro - one core.
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2014-07-13T16:09:13Z Guthur`: ah
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2014-07-13T16:09:29Z Guthur`: yeah in measures of slow, that's pretty darn slow
2014-07-13T16:11:08Z drmeister: Hang on - that's throwing every LLVM optimization and inlining at it.
2014-07-13T16:11:25Z drmeister: To boot a Common Lisp system with that image takes 7.2 seconds.
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2014-07-13T16:11:54Z drmeister: Still slow when compared to SBCL or ECL, which are almost instantaneous to start up.
2014-07-13T16:12:00Z Guthur`: that certainly sounds more acceptable
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2014-07-13T16:12:25Z Guthur`: but as a naive solution that's more than acceptable IMO
2014-07-13T16:12:57Z drmeister: There is no compilation in that 7.2 seconds - it's just replaying the execution of all of the forms in the ~75 CL source files.
2014-07-13T16:13:10Z drmeister: It's slow because my generated code is not very efficient.
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2014-07-13T16:20:23Z drmeister: When I COMPILE-FILE a source file it generates an LLVM bitcode file that contains LLVM-IR.   I can load those as FASL files and they are compiled as they are loaded.  Loading the ~75 bitcode files and compiling them requires 1.5 minutes.  https://gist.github.com/drmeister/e2a776d3bde3d8b54e2e
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2014-07-13T16:22:24Z drmeister: So 1.5 minutes (loading and JITting LLVM-IR bitcode files) vs 7.2 seconds (loading a native code bundle).
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2014-07-13T16:24:50Z drmeister: The LLVM-IR bitcode files are good for linking and inlining.  Any CREATE-IMAGE function I write would generate native code images that would be loaded into the Clasp runtime using "dlopen".
2014-07-13T16:26:41Z drmeister: It's simpler than I stated earlier though - I don't have any environment to save.   The environment get's built when the compiled forms are loaded and evaluated at load-time.
2014-07-13T16:26:51Z drmeister: s/get's/gets/g (sigh)
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2014-07-13T16:28:05Z drmeister relies too much on compilers to flag his bad syntax
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2014-07-13T16:28:56Z |3b| notes that erc with flyspell flags "get's" :p
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2014-07-13T16:29:38Z drmeister: get's
2014-07-13T16:29:41Z drmeister: Nope.
2014-07-13T16:29:51Z drmeister: I use LimeChat on OS X.
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2014-07-13T16:45:31Z drmeister: I use the MCJIT LLVM engine.   It requires the creation of a separate llvm::Module for each REPL form.
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2014-07-13T16:48:59Z drmeister: I could save all of these Modules and link them together into a single Module and compile it to native code and save that.    Essentially it would be like taking every form entered into the REPL, dumping them into a single source file and COMPILE-FILEing it.   Would that have the correct semantics?
2014-07-13T16:49:27Z |3b|: seems like most forms typed into REPL would be transient
2014-07-13T16:49:59Z |3b|: (+ 1 2) shouldn't stay around longer than it takes to calculate 3
2014-07-13T16:50:01Z drmeister: They wouldn't be in this case, they will be played back at load time.
2014-07-13T16:50:16Z Bike: what load time? i thought this was the repl
2014-07-13T16:50:53Z drmeister: Bike: I'm thinking about how to implement DUMP-IMAGE and RESTORE-IMAGE to save and restore running images for ASDF.
2014-07-13T16:51:17Z |3b| would think of dump-image like GC...walk live objects, write to disk
2014-07-13T16:51:20Z Bike: so, what about a compile-file on the repl?
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2014-07-13T16:51:31Z |3b| wouldn't worry about it if the goal is just to run asdf though
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2014-07-13T16:52:01Z Bike: asdf probably doesn't need image stuff just to do the usual loading, does it?
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2014-07-13T16:52:08Z |3b|: just stub that bit out and worry about all the things that break when you start loading things with asdf :)
2014-07-13T16:52:14Z drmeister: I can't write live objects to a file.   Live objects were created by C++ code.   They contain pointers and what not that will change from load to load.
2014-07-13T16:52:31Z |3b|: right, you need to keep track of that sort of thing
2014-07-13T16:53:20Z |3b|: if loading an image isn't going to be faster than loading .fasl or source, i wouldn't bother with it to start with, unless you want to ship people binaries right now
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2014-07-13T16:55:27Z drmeister: |3b| that's exactly what I did - I'm musing aloud how I would implement that functionality when I get around to it.  If it turns out that it's really easy I could whip it up quickly.
2014-07-13T16:56:13Z |3b|: does your GC move objects?
2014-07-13T16:56:17Z Bike: it's probably not going to be easy
2014-07-13T16:56:40Z drmeister: |3b|: Yes, the GC that I'm working on will move all objects.
2014-07-13T16:57:05Z |3b|: could it theoretically move them to arbitrary locations?
2014-07-13T16:57:21Z drmeister: Yup.
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2014-07-13T16:58:03Z |3b|: if so, 'save image' could involve allocating a big chunk of address space, and just move everything there as if with GC, then save it, then on load, mmap that and move them back into normal heap with GC
2014-07-13T16:58:14Z drmeister: Not theoretically either - immediately.
2014-07-13T16:59:28Z |3b|: though you still have to be careful about external resources
2014-07-13T16:59:30Z drmeister: |3b|: That may work - but I have no idea how it will play with the garbage collector or the C++ runtime.
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2014-07-13T17:02:12Z drmeister: Right now I'm using the Boehm garbage collector - that doesn't move things. A solution like what you describe would depend on a copying GC.   I'll chat with the Ravenbrook people about it.   It's a good idea.
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2014-07-13T17:04:27Z drmeister: The idea of stringing all of the Modules generated at the REPL into one big Module and compiling that is more portable but there is a runtime cost involved in playing out the execution at load time.
2014-07-13T17:04:42Z drmeister: If I put a (sleep 10000) in there - that would be bad.
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2014-07-13T17:05:56Z drmeister: That's a very good point I made there - it provides a strong motivation for serializing the live objects rather than playing back the execution.
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2014-07-13T17:06:38Z drmeister: Ugh, there's another problem.  Functions are not managed by the GC at the moment.
2014-07-13T17:08:09Z oleo: what's the difference between (defstruct (binary-tree (:type list) :named)  label left right) and (defstruct (binary-tree (:type list)) label left right) ? when i use the former the p57.lisp in l99 fails using the latter it succeeds....
2014-07-13T17:08:53Z oleo: the first gets me (binary-tree 3 (binary-tree 2 ......
2014-07-13T17:09:06Z oleo: the last (3 (2 (1......
2014-07-13T17:09:46Z drmeister: To allow functions to be managed by the GC I have to figure out how to get LLVM to generate position independent code into specific memory locations among other things.
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2014-07-13T17:12:00Z Bike: clhs defstruct
2014-07-13T17:12:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm
2014-07-13T17:12:03Z Bike: oleo: it's pretty clear
2014-07-13T17:12:04Z drmeister: In LLVM with MCJIT functions aren't primitives, Modules are.  I don't think Functions can be individually GC'd - only Modules (a collection of Functions and globals).
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2014-07-13T17:16:05Z oleo: ok then i modify mine to be not named....meh
2014-07-13T17:16:27Z drmeister: Damn - that's why SBCL and ECL start up instantaneously - they load precompiled data.   I have to play out the complete boot process in order to create all of the C++ objects.
2014-07-13T17:17:20Z oleo: and there's a bloody (asser nil) case too which barfs uselessly....
2014-07-13T17:17:26Z Bike: if it makes you feel better, the sbcl image process is messy as hell
2014-07-13T17:17:29Z oleo: heh
2014-07-13T17:18:18Z drmeister: I feel pretty good about that 7.2 seconds now.
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2014-07-13T17:24:25Z drmeister: What is messy about the sbcl image process?
2014-07-13T17:25:04Z Bike: http://www.sbcl.org/1.0/manual/Saving-a-Core-Image.html
2014-07-13T17:26:52Z Fare: drmeister, what 7.2 seconds? For your startup?
2014-07-13T17:26:58Z drmeister: Fare: Yes.
2014-07-13T17:27:03Z Fare: then yes, dump-image would be a great addition to your lisp.
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2014-07-13T17:27:45Z Fare: but let that not be a release stopper.
2014-07-13T17:28:21Z Fare: elk, gcl, and more, can show you how to do it.
2014-07-13T17:28:41Z Fare: I haven't read the sources for elk in years, but they were extremely readable last time I tried.
2014-07-13T17:28:47Z drmeister: Oh boy - and then there are all the objects created by exposed C++ libraries.   All of the LLVM objects and everything else.    The only way this will work will be if there is some way to have the OS save the process and reload it.
2014-07-13T17:29:03Z Fare: and yes, that's possible.
2014-07-13T17:29:32Z Fare: dump an executable that wants the various dynamic libraries at specific addresses.
2014-07-13T17:29:59Z Fare: When I read ELK, long ago, it was doing it all with static linking, to control the addresses.
2014-07-13T17:30:28Z Fare: cmucl had some magic thing to re-link with the C libraries when restarting. SBCL something similar.
2014-07-13T17:30:49Z Fare: the heap objects were at a fixed address, but the C libraries needed to be relinked... can be tricky.
2014-07-13T17:31:22Z Fare: also necessitates a discipline that your various C libraries might not be respecting themselves.
2014-07-13T17:32:21Z xristos: sbcl only relinks afaik
2014-07-13T17:32:28Z xristos: there is no foreign state saved whatsoever
2014-07-13T17:33:57Z xristos: hell there is no local state saved besides global state
2014-07-13T17:35:13Z drmeister: Then there are things like open files.   Bleh.
2014-07-13T17:35:19Z xristos: pharo or lua/pluto for that
2014-07-13T17:35:31Z xristos: i miss this sort of built-in persistence in CL
2014-07-13T17:36:40Z drmeister: My problem is special - I have to build a persistent CL and C++.
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2014-07-13T17:39:27Z drmeister: The C++ part is the hard part.
2014-07-13T17:40:15Z xristos: why?
2014-07-13T17:40:50Z drmeister: Crap - there's all sorts of problems.   SBCL unwinds the stack when it saves its image.   I can't do that.   C++ can write pointers into the heap to objects on the stack - ergo I have to save the stack(s) as well.
2014-07-13T17:41:16Z xristos: yeah
2014-07-13T17:44:51Z drmeister: Terms: "Application checkpointing" "cryopid2".
2014-07-13T17:45:27Z xristos: doesn't seem that hard to me
2014-07-13T17:45:43Z xristos: pause process, write out all mappings
2014-07-13T17:47:36Z Fare: drmeister, once again, see how ELK does it.
2014-07-13T17:47:51Z Fare: if you unwind C++ code, it should deallocate those objects.
2014-07-13T17:48:00Z Fare: of course, "should".... hahahaha
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2014-07-13T17:48:21Z Fare: but if you care only about the C++ code you control, that's doable
2014-07-13T17:48:39Z drmeister: http://sam.zoy.org/elk/
2014-07-13T17:49:05Z drmeister: Do you mean that elk?
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2014-07-13T18:14:01Z oleo: http://picpaste.de/pics/graphs-5UxpwHP6.1405275221.png
2014-07-13T18:15:41Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143160
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2014-07-13T18:21:19Z Fare: yes
2014-07-13T18:21:25Z Fare: it's old, but proven
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2014-07-13T18:25:22Z Quadresce: A friendly reminder that the Lisp conference early registration deadline is tomorrow for the reduced price. http://ilc2014.iro.umontreal.ca/registration.php
2014-07-13T18:25:51Z antoszka: Can't afford to fly to Montreal, unfortunately.
2014-07-13T18:26:13Z oleo: http://picpaste.de/pics/graphs2-aBNS7U4W.1405275958.png
2014-07-13T18:26:15Z antoszka: BTW, do we already know where the next ILC is going to be?
2014-07-13T18:26:19Z xristos: oleo: wow someone is still using CLIM?
2014-07-13T18:26:20Z Zhivago: They need to set up a train line from Russia.
2014-07-13T18:26:45Z oleo: xristos: yes and i even used the draw-tree from l99 in it and those work too sorta ....
2014-07-13T18:26:48Z Quadresce: antoszka, no. Paris was the other candidate this year.
2014-07-13T18:27:09Z antoszka: Quadresce: Well, Paris was already used for the ELS :)
2014-07-13T18:27:45Z Quadresce: Yep
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2014-07-13T18:28:20Z antoszka: So I suppose the next localisation will be announced at the ILC itself.
2014-07-13T18:28:36Z Quadresce: antoszka, do you have a suggestion?
2014-07-13T18:29:02Z Quadresce: antoszka: probably not
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2014-07-13T18:29:39Z antoszka: Quadresce: AFAIK the Polish lisp community from Kraków (Cracow) would like to host the upcoming ELS there.
2014-07-13T18:29:54Z oleo: http://picpaste.de/pics/graphs3-nxq39GtJ.1405276173.png
2014-07-13T18:30:11Z antoszka: Quadresce: No suggestions for the ILC, though.
2014-07-13T18:30:29Z oleo: the ascii box and line drawing is better but still, i don't know why there is some glitch in the drawings ....
2014-07-13T18:30:50Z oleo: maybe i should use fixed-font or so...
2014-07-13T18:31:24Z xristos: https://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=201333
2014-07-13T18:31:43Z xristos: looks like another half-baked lisp reinvention
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2014-07-13T18:32:14Z Zhivago: I don't think so.
2014-07-13T18:32:24Z Quadresce: Lisp does not handle the things they describe
2014-07-13T18:32:34Z Zhivago: Yes -- particularly reversable operations.
2014-07-13T18:32:52Z Zhivago: It's something that a new lisp should probably consider supporting, though.
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2014-07-13T18:43:33Z inklesspen: I have a macro lambda list like (foo bar (baz-1 &rest baz-rest) &body body), so there's two required variables, then a list with at least one element, and then the body of the macro, right?
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2014-07-13T18:44:12Z inklesspen: is there a good way to have that baz list as optional, but still give editors the knowledge it should be a list?
2014-07-13T18:44:48Z Quadresce: (foo bar (&rest baz) &body body) ?
2014-07-13T18:46:43Z inklesspen: yeah, that works great, thanks
2014-07-13T18:47:04Z inklesspen: didn't realize you could have a &rest without a first argument
2014-07-13T18:47:12Z oleo: eheh
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2014-07-13T18:47:38Z oleo: it means plural but won't barf when you give it a singular
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2014-07-13T18:55:52Z pjb: inklesspen: that doesn't make the list optional, just optionally empty.
2014-07-13T18:56:03Z inklesspen: pjb: true, but it's good enough for my purposes.
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2014-07-13T19:01:25Z pjb: Zhivago: reversible operations seems to be a requisite of their system, but the purpose of their systems seems to be well supported and implemented by two lisp libraries: KR and Cells.
2014-07-13T19:01:30Z pjb: each.
2014-07-13T19:01:50Z pjb: (from the abstract).
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2014-07-13T19:11:07Z pjb: dim: "Recursive expansion of the type specifier returned as the expansion must terminate, including the expansion of type specifiers which are nested within the expansion.", therefore (deftype list-of (element-type)  `(or null (cons ,element-type (list-of ,element-type)))) is invalid (but still accepted by abcl, clisp and ecl).
2014-07-13T19:11:11Z pjb: So you have to restrict yourself to checking only the first element: (deftype list-of (element-type)  `(or null (cons ,element-type list)))  (defstruct auto (wheels '() :type (list-of wheel)))
2014-07-13T19:11:30Z pjb: or write a satisfying function.
2014-07-13T19:11:36Z dim: thanks
2014-07-13T19:11:50Z dim: I'll get back to that when the code works, as it's mainly documentation
2014-07-13T19:12:14Z dim: reading the IFX file format and making sense of it is quite more "interesting" that I wanted to think
2014-07-13T19:13:10Z pjb: or in general: (deftype whatever (&rest anything) t)
2014-07-13T19:13:27Z pjb: (typep something '(whatever 1 something "hey")) -> T :-)
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2014-07-13T22:28:29Z drmeister: Debugging low-level code generation problems is always fun.   In getting ASDF to work I discovered I wasn't handling calls like (defun foo (&key x) (print x))    (foo :x 1 :x 2) properly.
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2014-07-13T22:30:20Z drmeister: The presence of the second keyword argument was throwing an error that "Keyword :X is not recognized".  Errors in code generation, misleading error messages - bleh.
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2014-07-13T22:31:04Z Bike: hope you're ready to fix small problems like that for years to come
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2014-07-13T22:33:05Z drmeister: Oh pish-posh - that's the last one :-)
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2014-07-13T22:40:54Z faheem: drmeister: i forget, is your compiler using clang?
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2014-07-13T23:30:00Z drmeister: faheem: No, my compiler doesn't use clang.   I expose clang as a library for analyzing C++.
2014-07-13T23:30:42Z kristof: Can't remember if I mentioned this to you, but have you ever read that blog post about the pain of writing a compiler for a dynamic language on top of clang?
2014-07-13T23:30:54Z kristof: I think it was the parrot guys
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2014-07-13T23:34:36Z drmeister: kristof: I read that a long time ago - it was pretty depressing if I remember.   I should read it again to see how it aged.
2014-07-13T23:35:03Z pjb: If there is an indirect indexed addressing mode, I don't see how it can be painful.
2014-07-13T23:36:06Z kristof: drmeister: http://qinsb.blogspot.com/2011/03/unladen-swallow-retrospective.html
2014-07-13T23:36:09Z pjb: eg. in brainfuck, or in Turing Machines, there's no such addressing mode, therefore, painful.
2014-07-13T23:36:28Z pjb: that is, until you implement the layer with it.
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2014-07-13T23:37:09Z kristof: drmeister: Oh, you know, I wonder what a Common Lisp written in Rpython would perform like
2014-07-13T23:37:42Z kristof: Since you get metatracing for free, and "all you have to do" is write an interpreter (which isn't hard!), it might be an interesting experiment
2014-07-13T23:38:12Z kristof: I looked into the idea maybe 8 months ago, back in December, but got distracted by other things.
2014-07-13T23:40:29Z drmeister: Meh - it's not as much of a downer as I remember it being.  I don't know what half of the things they are talking about are:  "LLVM will not fold loads from the Python stack across calls to external functions"?  "LLVM doesn't really support back-patching"  Whatever.
2014-07-13T23:41:33Z drmeister: I do have a line number information from Common Lisp in GDB
2014-07-13T23:42:50Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/2e7460094da4c5a68346
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2014-07-13T23:43:50Z drmeister: I wish it worked with lldb.
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2014-07-13T23:57:58Z drmeister: Debugging question:   Let's say I have a function:   https://gist.github.com/drmeister/2f367430d1aa0f8fb65f
2014-07-13T23:58:26Z drmeister: It performs a lot of tests and returns t or nil.    How do I figure out, given the arguments, what is failing?
2014-07-13T23:59:07Z drmeister: Do you just stick print statements into it and recompile that function?
2014-07-13T23:59:17Z Bike: you mean you want to know what expression in the AND is evaluating false?
2014-07-13T23:59:27Z Bike: i'd just split it up into multiple functions, or maybe throw in some prints sure
2014-07-14T00:01:43Z drmeister: Yeah - that's what I mean.   And even though I'm just using *inferior-lisp* (no slime yet) sticking in print statements and recompiling the function is working pretty well
2014-07-14T00:03:21Z kristof: Huh, slime doesn't seem to be compiling
2014-07-14T00:04:27Z kristof: Yeah, I'm getting a bunch of errors with slime-fuzzy.el
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2014-07-14T00:13:53Z drmeister: Nope, discovering that my lambda-list processor didn't recognize that (defgeneric foo (a &key) ...) and (defmethod foo ((a YYY) &key bar) ...)  had congruent lambda lists - that was the last small problem in my code.
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2014-07-14T00:15:14Z Zhivago: Yeah, the optionals aren't dispatchable.
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2014-07-14T00:49:46Z digiorgi: sorry i have a bad internet connection, i rewrite my question:
2014-07-14T00:49:46Z digiorgi: i have a problem with the asdf, my defsystem is:
2014-07-14T00:49:46Z digiorgi: (defsystem "cmsi" :components ((file "base-app"))) =>Car of ((:FILE
2014-07-14T00:49:46Z digiorgi:             "base-app")) is not a function name or lambda-expression.
2014-07-14T00:49:46Z digiorgi:    [Condition of type ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM:LOAD-SYSTEM-DEFINITION-ERROR]
2014-07-14T00:51:24Z pnpuff: digiorgi: the problem is not asdf
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2014-07-14T00:52:47Z digiorgi: @pnpuff yes, i supposed, but i don't know where my syntax is wrong
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2014-07-14T00:54:38Z pnpuff: digiorgi: so you know that your syntax is wrong. The problem is what you have in the functional position.
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2014-07-14T00:55:39Z Zhivago: Well, the error is pretty clear -- it expects (file "base-app") to be a function name or lambda expression.
2014-07-14T00:55:59Z Zhivago: Did you mean to write ((file "base-app")))?
2014-07-14T00:56:45Z digiorgi: no... in the asdf documentation there is an example:
2014-07-14T00:56:45Z digiorgi: (defsystem "hello-lisp"
2014-07-14T00:56:45Z digiorgi:        :description "hello-lisp: a sample Lisp system."
2014-07-14T00:56:45Z digiorgi:        :version "0.0.1"
2014-07-14T00:56:45Z digiorgi:        :author "Joe User <joe@example.com>"
2014-07-14T00:56:45Z digiorgi:        :licence "Public Domain"
2014-07-14T00:56:47Z digiorgi:        :components ((:file "packages")
2014-07-14T00:56:49Z digiorgi:                     (:file "macros" :depends-on ("packages"))
2014-07-14T00:56:51Z digiorgi:                     (:file "hello" :depends-on ("macros"))))
2014-07-14T00:59:31Z Xach: digiorgi: that means you are in a context where (defsystem ...) is not (asdf:defsystem ...)
2014-07-14T00:59:32Z pjb: drmeister: you could define and, or and eq operators that would return in addition to the original boolean, the reason why.
2014-07-14T01:00:01Z Xach: digiorgi: where did you write your defsystem form?
2014-07-14T01:00:15Z kristof: Do people write defsystems outside of asd files?
2014-07-14T01:00:52Z digiorgi: ohooo .... asdf:defsystem solved the problem
2014-07-14T01:00:59Z Xach: Not usually. But sometimes people try (load "my-system.asd"), which won't work without special package stuff in the system file.
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2014-07-14T01:01:10Z Xach: digiorgi: Where did you write your defsystem form?
2014-07-14T01:01:15Z digiorgi: i write a wrong cl defpackage
2014-07-14T01:01:18Z Xach: in a file named cmsi.asd I hope?
2014-07-14T01:01:26Z digiorgi: yes in a cmsi.asd
2014-07-14T01:01:38Z digiorgi: thanks for the help
2014-07-14T01:01:39Z digiorgi: (:
2014-07-14T01:01:40Z Xach: What operation preceded your error?
2014-07-14T01:01:45Z Xach: I ain't done helping!
2014-07-14T01:02:05Z digiorgi: i was in a wrong package
2014-07-14T01:02:28Z drmeister: pjb: I don't understand.
2014-07-14T01:03:11Z Xach: digiorgi: I don't think so.
2014-07-14T01:03:32Z Xach: digiorgi: You normally can write (defsystem ...) without the error you got. So I'm trying to figure out what you were doing when it broke.
2014-07-14T01:03:46Z Xach: Did you try to evaluate it with C-c C-c or something?
2014-07-14T01:04:16Z kristof: drmeister: A second return value that contains the form which did not pass the test
2014-07-14T01:04:39Z digiorgi: Xach no, i used (asdf:load-system :cmsi), but the problem was solved when i wrote asdf:defsystem insted of defsystem alone
2014-07-14T01:04:50Z kristof: drmeister: If you try and'ing something like (eq 'foo 'bar) then the whole form would return NIL and '(eq 'foo 'bar)
2014-07-14T01:05:03Z digiorgi: Xach: no, i used (asdf:load-system :cmsi), but the problem was solved when i wrote asdf:defsystem insted of defsystem alone
2014-07-14T01:05:09Z Xach: digiorgi: that should not happen, so something else is the problem.
2014-07-14T01:07:29Z digiorgi: Xach: yes it sounds trange for me. But please take acount that i am a noob in CL
2014-07-14T01:07:31Z digiorgi: (:
2014-07-14T01:07:59Z kristof: digiorgi: You know how packages work, right?
2014-07-14T01:08:28Z drmeister: pjb - kristof: I see - you are referring to my question about debugging AND, OR expressions - thanks, those are suggestions I hadn't thought of.
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2014-07-14T01:08:44Z kristof: I didn't know the context of pjb's suggestion, but it sounds pretty cool
2014-07-14T01:11:50Z digiorgi: kristof: yes, that i think. I create package (cl:defpackage :cmsi (use :asdf-user ..... etc)). I must have used :asdf only. That is way i said in my bad english, that was a package problem (:
2014-07-14T01:12:06Z kristof: Ok! Lesson learned.
2014-07-14T01:12:47Z digiorgi: jajaja, yes, thanks!!!! (:
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2014-07-14T01:19:40Z pjb: drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/+32GS
2014-07-14T01:23:02Z drmeister: pjb: Thanks - I tucked that away in evernote
2014-07-14T01:24:52Z pjb: drmeister: you can also use cl-stepper.
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2014-07-14T02:07:13Z wizzo: are there any recommendations for an xml library with some good documentation?
2014-07-14T02:07:23Z wizzo: i'm trying to use s-xml but i'm absolutely lost
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2014-07-14T02:13:55Z kristof: Oh my god, that's a lot of xml libraries.
2014-07-14T02:14:18Z p_l: clxml
2014-07-14T02:15:04Z kristof: I was about to say cllibxml2
2014-07-14T02:15:12Z kristof: *cl-libxml2
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2014-07-14T02:17:29Z wizzo: cool thanks, i'll take a look at both
2014-07-14T02:17:35Z wizzo: cl-xml docs look alright
2014-07-14T02:18:39Z p_l: urk, I meant cxml
2014-07-14T02:18:43Z p_l: there are different ways to use cxml, my favourite was always cxml-stp
2014-07-14T02:18:47Z p_l: at least for reading
2014-07-14T02:20:12Z joe-w-bimedina: I would like to make a program, that is running in a loop, wait 5 seconds when a certain condition is met  then run a function. without stopping the rest of the program.  I cant just (incf x) until x equals a certain amount and then run the function because the time of each loop is constantly changing
2014-07-14T02:21:42Z kristof: joe-w-bimedina: Use a future?
2014-07-14T02:22:15Z kristof: joe-w-bimedina: I'm not sure if you mean run the function after 5 seconds or run the function after sleeping for 5 seconds AND checking a condition
2014-07-14T02:22:36Z Zhivago: Presumably he means to schedule a function call to be run in a thread at time now + 5 seconds.
2014-07-14T02:22:59Z joe-w-bimedina: exactly in an implementation independent way
2014-07-14T02:23:03Z Zhivago: And once you express it like that, it becomes pretty obvious.
2014-07-14T02:23:09Z joe-w-bimedina: exactly, in an implementation independent way
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2014-07-14T02:24:38Z joe-w-bimedina: it talks about threads at this link: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/process.html but it doesn't seem implementation independent because it says: See initializing multithreading below to find out how to get threads running on other platforms.
2014-07-14T02:25:15Z Zhivago: Well, that's because CL doesn't have threads.
2014-07-14T02:25:41Z Zhivago: Still, there are common portability libraries, such as boardeaux threads (however it is actually spelt)
2014-07-14T02:25:50Z kristof: *library
2014-07-14T02:25:57Z kristof: I don't think anyone's written a second threading library
2014-07-14T02:26:00Z kristof: I sure hope not.
2014-07-14T02:26:12Z p_l: kristof: there's at least one that had more than one project using it
2014-07-14T02:26:19Z kristof: p_l: Shameful!
2014-07-14T02:26:22Z p_l: it's pretty much dead by now, though
2014-07-14T02:26:31Z kristof: Barlow designed bt threads, it might as well be considered part of the standard.
2014-07-14T02:26:35Z p_l: kristof: I think it was of similar, if not older, vintage as bordeaux-threads
2014-07-14T02:26:38Z joe-w-bimedina: so bordeaux threads is implementation imdependent even for windows/mac
2014-07-14T02:26:51Z Zhivago: For all implementations that it supports, sure.
2014-07-14T02:26:53Z p_l: joe-w-bimedina: it gives a common interface to implementation-specific interfaces
2014-07-14T02:27:07Z kristof: joe-w-bimedina: Depends. Check the project page to see which implementations are alright.
2014-07-14T02:27:09Z Zhivago: You can generally add support for an implementation easily enough.
2014-07-14T02:27:28Z Zhivago: Not that I'm a fan of threads, but there aren't any alternatives for what you've asked for.
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2014-07-14T02:27:55Z kristof: Zhivago: Unless he doesn't want to run any other function besides the sleepy one, in which case he can just block main for 5 seconds.
2014-07-14T02:28:06Z kristof: Zhivago: Not a fan of threads? How else am I supposed to hog all my cores?
2014-07-14T02:28:12Z Zhivago: Processes!
2014-07-14T02:28:16Z joe-w-bimedina: cool thanks alot! alot of big libraries use that one....on a one core processor would this still work,,,can't block main its a video
2014-07-14T02:28:21Z kristof: Zhivago: Oh, that's what you meant.
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2014-07-14T02:28:41Z Zhivago: Possibly light-weight processes implemented as threads, but still ...
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2014-07-14T02:29:09Z Zhivago: Just get rid of the gratuitous contention and scaling limit of shared memory.
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2014-07-14T02:29:53Z kristof: Zhivago: I examined the state of concurrency in common lisp some time last month and was quite dismayed. :(
2014-07-14T02:30:10Z Zhivago: Well, that's because CL doesn't have any.
2014-07-14T02:30:14Z kristof: Ah, we have some!
2014-07-14T02:30:21Z Zhivago: Not in CL, you don't.
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2014-07-14T02:30:38Z Zhivago: Unless you want to re-implement CL in CL and then CPS transform the universe.
2014-07-14T02:30:49Z kristof: Zhivago: That's precisely what some people do.
2014-07-14T02:30:49Z Zhivago: Which brings us back to ... threads.
2014-07-14T02:30:59Z Zhivago: Yes, but they are crazy people.
2014-07-14T02:31:09Z kristof: Zhivago: CL-Async is very, very awesome. Building futures on top of that: not so awesome
2014-07-14T02:31:22Z kristof: Zhivago: LParallel is magic. That fine grained parallelism stuff runs really, really fast.
2014-07-14T02:32:11Z kristof: Zhivago: Even better, Lparallel's "kernels", which are just threadpool/scheduler abstractions, implement work-stealing, which automatically make them more sophisticated than every other task scheduling software library around.
2014-07-14T02:32:57Z kristof: For some really basic green thread stuff, I think Green-threads (which is an abstraction on top of cl-async-futures (which is an abstraction of on top of cl-async (throw NIL) ) ) is okay
2014-07-14T02:33:40Z kristof: Zhivago: Oh, and if you've ever looked at STMX, it's awesome. Don't look at the code, though. There's a lot of assembly, it might make you sick.
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2014-07-14T02:34:14Z kristof: Last thing, I quite like LParallel's future/promise library. Better than cl-async's :)
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2014-07-14T02:36:35Z zRecursive: Does lparellel mimic Clojure ?
2014-07-14T02:36:45Z kristof: Nope.
2014-07-14T02:36:52Z kristof: Maybe the reducers library
2014-07-14T02:37:15Z zRecursive: IIRC, i eve saw future/promise in Clojure
2014-07-14T02:37:34Z joe-w-bimedina: it says for make-thread: Creates and returns a thread named NAME, which will call the function FUNCTION with no arguments:  How would I call (progn (sleep 5) (other-function arg arg0)) then?
2014-07-14T02:38:17Z Bike: (lambda () (sleep 5) (other-function arg arg0))
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2014-07-14T02:38:53Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks for the confirmation
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2014-07-14T02:39:37Z kristof: zRecursive: Clojure invented exactly none of those concepts, so I would not say it "mimics" Clojure.
2014-07-14T02:40:37Z zRecursive: i see now
2014-07-14T02:41:38Z kristof: Not a huge fan of futures. "Go do this thing in a lightweight process, and I'll do something else until I need you, in which case I'll block." Kind of low level, in my opinion.
2014-07-14T02:42:21Z Zhivago: Not exactly.
2014-07-14T02:42:36Z kristof: The "need you" code and the "go do this thing" code should be consumer and producer processes, respectively, which should communicate via a channel.
2014-07-14T02:42:42Z zRecursive: I feel Erlang does parallel very well
2014-07-14T02:42:48Z kristof: You mean concurrency!
2014-07-14T02:42:49Z Zhivago: It should be more "I'd like this thing done sometime", "I'd like to block until this thing is done", and "is that thing odone yet?"
2014-07-14T02:42:59Z kristof: Zhivago: That's more accurate, you're right.
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2014-07-14T02:43:11Z Zhivago: And that forms a consumer/producer channel.
2014-07-14T02:43:16Z kristof: zRecursive: What Erlang does incredibly well is minimize latency between independently communicating processes.
2014-07-14T02:43:28Z zRecursive: kristof: Conocurrency+parallel
2014-07-14T02:43:39Z Zhivago: So, I think that futures aren't a good fundamental mechanism, but they can be an expressive higher level mechanism.
2014-07-14T02:44:07Z kristof: Zhivago: See, the higher level mechanisms I'm thinking of don't sit well with futures at the base. How do you express CSP in terms of future? You have to tilt your head a bit.
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2014-07-14T02:45:23Z kristof: Zhivago: Oh, since you know a lot about Clojure and are interested in this, I stumbled across a neat-o paper about the composition of concurrency paradigms (specifically in Clojure, but the results are generalizable)
2014-07-14T02:45:37Z Zhivago: My point is that futures aren't a good base.
2014-07-14T02:45:42Z kristof: Agreed!
2014-07-14T02:45:52Z zRecursive: No matter what OS you are using, Erlang can spawn thounsands of "thread" simultaneously ! Maybe CL can do the same thing
2014-07-14T02:46:00Z Zhivago: Futures are generally a good thing to build on top of other mechanisms, because sometimes they have good expressivity.
2014-07-14T02:46:08Z Zhivago: Also, I don't know much about clojure.
2014-07-14T02:46:11Z kristof: zRecursive: Not without a sophisticated runtime scheduler it can't!
2014-07-14T02:46:37Z zRecursive: Is such a schduler hard to implement ?
2014-07-14T02:46:44Z kristof: This is precisely the thing I'm working on in my spare time.
2014-07-14T02:46:57Z zRecursive: great
2014-07-14T02:47:26Z Zhivago: Well, erlang's threads are processes.
2014-07-14T02:47:33Z Zhivago: And that makes them a lot simpler.
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2014-07-14T02:47:48Z kristof: zRecursive: A good one is. How do you represent running processes? Do you spin machine threads? How long? What's your scheduling algorithm?
2014-07-14T02:47:49Z zRecursive: and much flexible
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2014-07-14T02:48:19Z zRecursive: kristof: borrow from Erlang ?
2014-07-14T02:48:27Z Zhivago: Scheduling is a similar class of problem to cache eviction.
2014-07-14T02:48:29Z kristof: zRecursive: And here's the thing. Turns out you can't make a scheduler that satisfies everyone's needs. Are you latency optimized, like Clojure? Then you'll pre-empt your processes after x "ops".
2014-07-14T02:48:39Z Zhivago: It is hard to generalize well.
2014-07-14T02:48:41Z kristof: Errrr Erlang
2014-07-14T02:49:03Z kristof: Zhivago: I think the solution to the problem is the same as the solution to Common Lisp's "how do we make an OO library that satisfies everyone?"
2014-07-14T02:49:13Z joe-w-bimedina: in your experience if thread-alive-p is true can i safely destroy the thread on any implementation?
2014-07-14T02:49:43Z Zhivago: That's easy -- re-education camps.
2014-07-14T02:49:48Z kristof: :)
2014-07-14T02:49:53Z Zhivago: The problem there is that you have no meaningful metric.
2014-07-14T02:50:02Z Zhivago: But you _can_ measure efficiency.
2014-07-14T02:50:13Z zRecursive: kristof: Even if not meeting everyone, CLOS is still great
2014-07-14T02:50:37Z kristof: zRecursive: It *does* meet everyone's needs because if you don't like the way it operates, you just open up the MOP and change the plumbing.
2014-07-14T02:51:02Z kristof: Zhivago: Compare for a second Erlang's scheduler, Go's scheduler, and Rust's scheduler.
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2014-07-14T02:51:42Z kristof: Zhivago: Erlang's scheduler is heavily latency optimized. This ensures *graceful* performance degradation, "fairness" (as mandated by Hewitt's axioms of actors), and, well, low latency!
2014-07-14T02:52:14Z kristof: Zhivago: The primary way they handle that is through pre-emptive scheduling, counting the "ops" some proc has executed.
2014-07-14T02:53:27Z kristof: Zhivago: Go is on the other end of the spectrum and is throughput oriented. Changing contexts is expensive on some level, so you just keep running your goroutine unless it blocks (or it enters a function call, which may or may not yield back to the scheduler). So that's co-operative scheduling.
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2014-07-14T02:54:00Z kristof: There's pretty much no pre-emption. So if you're in a tight loop, prepare to starve other procs. But that doesn't matter if you only want to, you know, get stuff done.
2014-07-14T02:54:51Z kristof: Zhivago: And Rust falls somewhere in between because they have slightly more pre-emption than Go does. But I'd still rank them as more throughput-oriented.
2014-07-14T02:54:59Z zRecursive: I would like pre-emptive
2014-07-14T02:55:38Z kristof: zRecursive: Well the thing is that none of those options are wrong. In fact, they all operate quite well for what they're meant to do.
2014-07-14T02:56:00Z kristof: If I'm Facebook and I'm implementing my chat service of course I'm going to use Erlang.
2014-07-14T02:56:21Z zRecursive: agree
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2014-07-14T02:56:52Z kristof: But if I'm Google and I'm using Go for... whatever the hell it is I'm using Go for, I'm going to use Go because it's compiled and optimized for throughput/low-lock-contention.
2014-07-14T02:57:48Z zRecursive: Erlang can produce native code too
2014-07-14T02:58:32Z kristof: Beyond the point :P My point was that nobody's wrong but not everyone's happy with everything
2014-07-14T03:00:08Z zRecursive: sure
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2014-07-14T03:17:22Z drmeister: I just realized that I don't have the correct semantics when I compile forms entered at the REPL prior to evaluation.   My COMPILE function isn't dealing with top level forms properly as in:  (eval-when (:execute :compile-toplevel) (defmacro tmacro (x) `(print ,x)) (defun tfun (x) (tmacro x)))
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2014-07-14T03:18:14Z drmeister: This is the form that I use to compile REPL forms: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/0a29a75540065e6e948a
2014-07-14T03:19:01Z drmeister: It's basically COMPILE within an environment.
2014-07-14T03:19:07Z Fare: drmeister, since you started from ECL, what differs from ECL?
2014-07-14T03:19:29Z drmeister: In this - everything.
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2014-07-14T03:26:12Z drmeister: Hang on - I'll be more specific.
2014-07-14T03:27:52Z drmeister: I use the ECL top.lsp file.   I reimplemented EVAL-IN-ENV.   Within EVAL-IN-ENV it separates the top-level forms and passes each of them through the form I just posted.
2014-07-14T03:28:42Z drmeister: It's coming back to me now - I dealt with this issue several months ago.   Bike helped me realize that I needed to separate out the top level forms and evaluate them separately.    I may not be doing that well enough.
2014-07-14T03:31:20Z drmeister: Yeah - that's the problem.   (progn (defmacro tmacro (x) `(print ,x)) (defun tfun (x) (tmacro x)))  works fine.   tfun evaluates properly after this form is passed to the repl.
2014-07-14T03:31:41Z drmeister: But (eval-when (:execute) (defmacro emacro (x) `(print ,x)) (defun efun (x) (emacro x)))   does not work.
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2014-07-14T03:35:28Z joe-w-bimedina: if I create a thread with bt:make-threads , do  have to destroy it with bt:destroy-thread before I make another thread with the same name?
2014-07-14T03:35:37Z drmeister: This is my EVAL-WITH-ENV and the separateTopLevelForms function that only deals with PROGN at the moment: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/d2edcc9817c9cac68ea4
2014-07-14T03:35:38Z joe-w-bimedina: *if I create a thread with bt:make-threads , do I  have to destroy it with bt:destroy-thread before I make another thread with the same name?
2014-07-14T03:40:23Z drmeister: Has anyone ever seen a discussion of implicit compilation of REPL forms prior in the process of EVAL?   I can't remember seeing anything in the CLHS.  Given something like (eval-when (:execute) (progn (eval-when (:execute) (defmacro FOO (x) `(print ,x)) (defun BAR (y) (FOO x))))   I need the correct behavior.
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2014-07-14T03:41:05Z kristof: Implicit compilation?
2014-07-14T03:41:25Z drmeister: It needs to reduce this to two forms:  (defmacro FOO (x) `(print ,x))   and (defun BAR (y) (FOO x)), compile and evaluate each in turn.
2014-07-14T03:41:40Z drmeister: kristof: That's what I've been calling it - does it have a more widely accepted name?
2014-07-14T03:42:06Z kristof: drmeister: Why can't both of those just be interpreted?
2014-07-14T03:42:08Z drmeister: Maybe just "compilation"?
2014-07-14T03:42:24Z drmeister: My interpreter is a dog.    It's only useful for bootstrapping.
2014-07-14T03:42:25Z kristof: Well, I just don't see why something would compile unless you instruct it to do so by manually calling compile
2014-07-14T03:42:55Z kristof: That seems like unwanted behavior, in my opinion
2014-07-14T03:43:47Z kristof: But if it's faster to compile something and return the value than to interpret it, then I guess it's your prerogative to do so as the implementor, right?
2014-07-14T03:46:24Z drmeister: kristof: My interpreter is an s-expression walker, it is very slow and goes very deep into the stack.  It's slow and I can't profile with it.   Interesting note: ECL started with an S-expression walking interpreter and then they wrote a byte-code compiler to replace it.   They needed to do that because their other compiler is a "C" generating compiler that needs to invoke GCC.
2014-07-14T03:47:22Z drmeister: I have a native code compiler using LLVM that is available all the time.  So I use the interpreter to compile the compiler and then I use the compiler exclusively.
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2014-07-14T03:48:03Z drmeister: The problem I'm running into right now with EVAL-WHEN is a consequence of that decision.
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2014-07-14T03:48:41Z drmeister: I think the solution is to write a more complicated separateTopLevelForms that separates out the top-level forms from a REPL form and compiles and evaluates them one at a time.
2014-07-14T03:48:41Z kristof: drmeister: Seems hairy. :(
2014-07-14T03:48:53Z drmeister: Welcome to my world :-)
2014-07-14T03:49:02Z Fare: drmeister, can't you use the compiler to compile the compiler?
2014-07-14T03:49:08Z drmeister: I do.
2014-07-14T03:49:24Z Fare: and have the original compiler run on ECL, or a previous working clasp, etc
2014-07-14T03:49:34Z drmeister: Occasionally I have to rebuild everything from earth, air, fire and water.
2014-07-14T03:49:58Z kristof: There's your problem. You've got no turtles.
2014-07-14T03:50:05Z Fare: I mean, like sbcl can use any compliant enough cl as an initial cross-compiler
2014-07-14T03:50:12Z drmeister: Fare: I can use a previous working clasp but I can't use ECL - ECL doesn't interoperate with C++.
2014-07-14T03:50:59Z drmeister: Right, SBCL can do that because SBCL generates native code directly.
2014-07-14T03:51:16Z drmeister: Clasp doesn't - it depends on the LLVM C++ library.
2014-07-14T03:51:21Z Fare: and you C++ FFI is not portable
2014-07-14T03:51:32Z drmeister: Fare: That's one way to put it.
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2014-07-14T03:52:04Z drmeister: I've had to work from scratch.
2014-07-14T03:53:02Z drmeister: An S-expression walking interpreter is easy to write.   It took me a couple of months.   I don't want to make it faster because it's not worth it.   I want to put all the effort into making the compiler generate faster code.
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2014-07-14T03:56:32Z Fare: couldn't you reuse ECL's interpreter?
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2014-07-14T03:56:57Z drmeister: Gah - every time I've gone into that thing I've come out bloodied.   I have no idea how it works.
2014-07-14T03:57:21Z drmeister: It's freakin' alien technology.
2014-07-14T03:57:26Z Fare: ok. So your interpreter doesn't do EVAL-WHEN correctly?
2014-07-14T03:57:37Z Fare: (I admit I've never looked at that part of ECL)
2014-07-14T03:58:32Z drmeister: No, my S-expression interpreter does EVAL-WHEN properly.  https://gist.github.com/drmeister/b32e9e1c2bb47856bdeb
2014-07-14T03:58:43Z kristof: drmeister: Where do you host your code? You didn't have it publically available 7 months ago --
2014-07-14T03:58:47Z kristof: Just as I ask :P
2014-07-14T03:58:48Z drmeister: Easy peasy.
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2014-07-14T04:00:24Z drmeister: kristof: It's on github.   I still don't have it publicly available.   I wanted to get the garbage collector working properly - it was a toy before that.   I have the Boehm GC working now and soon I'll have the Memory Pool System GC working.   Right now I'm just waiting for the go ahead from my Universities Intellectual Property office.
2014-07-14T04:01:14Z kristof: drmeister: For some reason I was under the impression that you worked in a private laboratory.
2014-07-14T04:01:33Z drmeister: kristof: I run a laboratory.
2014-07-14T04:02:02Z kristof: Holy cow
2014-07-14T04:02:11Z kristof: drmeister: Are you involved in the molecular programming project?
2014-07-14T04:02:18Z drmeister: https://chem.cst.temple.edu/directory/faculty/schafmeister/
2014-07-14T04:02:33Z kristof: Oh, whoops
2014-07-14T04:02:46Z kristof: You got your doctorate at UC San Fran, you don't work there, my apologies :P
2014-07-14T04:03:08Z drmeister: kristof: Yes.   I'm writing this software as a domain specific language for designing molecular nanotechnology.
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2014-07-14T04:03:35Z kristof: Oh my god, that's awesome.
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2014-07-14T04:04:19Z drmeister: Thanks.
2014-07-14T04:05:42Z drmeister: Once I get this compiler released I'm going to start a Kickstarter to develop nanotechnology.
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2014-07-14T04:06:07Z kristof: I'm sorry, I just find that particular field of research really, really exciting. More than is healthy.
2014-07-14T04:06:29Z kristof: Specifically programmable nanatechnology
2014-07-14T04:06:34Z kristof: *nano
2014-07-14T04:06:38Z drmeister: As do I.
2014-07-14T04:06:57Z drmeister: Software is ephemeral - atoms are forever.
2014-07-14T04:07:32Z pjb`: I wouldn't bet.
2014-07-14T04:07:56Z pjb`: 1- particules including atoms decay.  Even gold.
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2014-07-14T04:08:22Z pjb`: 2- the point of software is that it can be easily duplicated.
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2014-07-14T04:08:47Z pjb`: But all right, you need biological systems to duplicate software (be it ADN or hard disks).
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2014-07-14T04:09:08Z drmeister: Unfortunately they are very, very hard to design with.   So we need better software and better ways to assemble them into molecules that do things.
2014-07-14T04:10:08Z drmeister: pjb`: Yes - and this spring I figured out how to use biological systems (DNA) to assemble 10^15 of our molecules and select and evolve the molecules that do things.   That combined with the software that I'm developing will - I think - enable nanotechnology.
2014-07-14T04:10:14Z kristof: drmeister: My very rudimentary knowledge of chemical kinetics leads me to believe that it's challenging to get predictable results
2014-07-14T04:11:10Z kristof: drmeister: If I may ask, where are the most exciting results happening in this field? Or are a very wide range of research institutions actively participating?
2014-07-14T04:11:52Z drmeister: kristof: That's where my molecules come in.   Do you know what peptides and proteins look like?   Chains of amino acids connected by rotatable bonds.  The whole thing looks like a long charm bracelet that has to fold into a three-dimensional structure to do anything?
2014-07-14T04:12:02Z kristof: Absolutely
2014-07-14T04:12:09Z kristof: Beta pleated sheats, alpha helices, I know that stuff :P
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2014-07-14T04:13:00Z drmeister: My molecules are different.  The building blocks are rings and they connect to each other through rings. They are "ladder molecules" with well defined shapes that are programmable.  http://astro.temple.edu/~meister/Schafmeister_group_website/Research.html
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2014-07-14T04:13:21Z drmeister: My molecules don't fold.   You just build the structure you want.
2014-07-14T04:13:46Z drmeister: You assemble them like lego bricks.
2014-07-14T04:14:00Z Bike: And you can get things working as well as proteins that way?
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2014-07-14T04:14:11Z kristof: drmeister: So they're just building blocks with minimal variable structure so you don't have to worry about van der waals interactions
2014-07-14T04:15:10Z drmeister: I think so.   But we have to make them bigger than we've made them so far - like three to ten times bigger.  So now I need robotics to automate their synthesis and purification.
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2014-07-14T04:15:29Z kristof: Purification?
2014-07-14T04:16:01Z Bike: usually in chemical engineering you can't just make one thing, you make a bunch of different things and have to extract the one thing you care about.
2014-07-14T04:16:03Z drmeister: kristof: Intramolecular interactions become a lot less important since most of our structure comes from rings, covalent bonds and stereochemistry.
2014-07-14T04:16:21Z drmeister: Bike: We make one thing and only the thing that we want.
2014-07-14T04:16:33Z Bike: so what's the purification?
2014-07-14T04:16:37Z drmeister: Except when we want to make lots of things.
2014-07-14T04:17:02Z drmeister: Reverse phase high performance liquid chromatography with an attached mass spectrometer.
2014-07-14T04:17:44Z Bike: i can sympathize with using long words when you don't want to spend an hour answering questions.
2014-07-14T04:20:35Z drmeister: Sorry - that's what it's called.    When we make molecules it's never perfect, there are always side reactions.
2014-07-14T04:21:10Z drmeister: We inject the mixtures into a flowing stream of water and it goes into a greasy resin and our greasy molecules stick to the resin.
2014-07-14T04:21:41Z drmeister: Then the machine slowly trickles in an organic solvent that eventually makes the water/solvent mixture greasy enough that the greasy molecules peel off of the resin.
2014-07-14T04:21:53Z Bike: well, that's what i meant, you're making a bunch of stuff and you somehow isolate the things you want.
2014-07-14T04:22:25Z drmeister: Then it flows into a machine called a "mass spectrometer" that puts a charge on the molecules and accelerates them into a magnetic field that bends them according to how much they weigh.
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2014-07-14T04:23:19Z drmeister: With the help of a lot of hardware/software we can have the machine detect our molecules and divert the liquid stream to a collector that collects it in a series of tubes.
2014-07-14T04:23:34Z drmeister: The stream that doesn't contain our molecules is diverted to waste.
2014-07-14T04:23:51Z Bike: neat-o.
2014-07-14T04:24:01Z drmeister: That way we can automatically purify out molecules from the cruft that comes about from every synthesis.
2014-07-14T04:24:03Z pjb: Wnat? With a lot of random unknown molecules?
2014-07-14T04:24:12Z drmeister: They start out maybe 30% pure and the come out 99% pure.
2014-07-14T04:24:23Z drmeister: Not random, just not what we want.
2014-07-14T04:24:51Z Bike: if i've learned anything from gen chem it's that you get a lot of hard to wash shit clogging up your glass :p
2014-07-14T04:25:16Z drmeister: Some have pieces missing, some have too many pieces.
2014-07-14T04:25:32Z drmeister: Chemistry is pretty promiscuous.
2014-07-14T04:25:48Z drmeister: Molecules get it on with each other like crazy - it's shameful.
2014-07-14T04:25:57Z drmeister: That's chemistry.
2014-07-14T04:26:51Z drmeister: I have a machine like that without all the automation - so a student can purify half a dozen of them a day.
2014-07-14T04:26:59Z drmeister: I need a robot that can do 50 a day.
2014-07-14T04:27:07Z drmeister: $250,000
2014-07-14T04:27:21Z drmeister: There are also robots that will assemble our molecules - $200,000
2014-07-14T04:27:43Z drmeister: Then I need to contract out the synthesis of our building blocks ~ $100,000 to get started.
2014-07-14T04:28:47Z drmeister: Anyway, I'm off topic.
2014-07-14T04:29:59Z drmeister: Bike: Remember when we were discussion top-level forms in the context of compiling REPL forms prior to evaluation?
2014-07-14T04:30:08Z Bike: probably
2014-07-14T04:30:32Z drmeister: Have you seen any discussion on how to do it properly anywhere?
2014-07-14T04:31:24Z drmeister: I am handling PROGN properly but wasn't handling EVAL-WHEN (:execute) at all.   I'd love to see what others do before I re-re-implement it.
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2014-07-14T04:31:44Z Bike: No. I'd expect them to be processed like a top level form in a compiled file, I suppose.
2014-07-14T04:32:06Z Bike: or, well, no, hm.
2014-07-14T04:32:41Z Bike: If you take a form and wrap it in a lambda to compile, which I guess is reasonable, the eval-when won't actually be toplevel, so it should be compiled as such - turn eval-when with an :execute into a progn and ignore the rest.
2014-07-14T04:32:45Z drmeister: What we came up with (or what I implemented) was if you type (progn (form1) (form2)) at the REPL it would separate it into (form1) and (form2) and compile form1, eval it and then compile form2 and eval it.
2014-07-14T04:33:17Z Bike: i don't think users will expect top level form processing, really
2014-07-14T04:34:56Z drmeister: I ran into it with ASDF.   It's full of these (with-upgradability ...) macros that expand to (EVAL-WHEN (:execute ...) ...) forms.
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2014-07-14T04:35:47Z drmeister: When I (load "asdf.lisp") it loads each Sexp and evaluates it in turn.    I could COMPILE-FILE it but I want the REPL semantics to work properly and I realized that I wasn't handling EVAL-WHEN at all.
2014-07-14T04:36:09Z Bike: Well, that's wrong. I'd say you should just handle :execute and ignore the rest.
2014-07-14T04:36:32Z drmeister: I could look it up - but is there any other top-level special operators that need to be handled this way?   PROGN and EVAL-WHEN - right?
2014-07-14T04:36:45Z Bike: "The use of the situation :execute (or eval) controls whether evaluation occurs for other eval-when forms; that is, those that are not top level forms, or those in code processed by eval or compile. If the :execute situation is specified in such a form, then the body forms are processed as an implicit progn; otherwise, the eval-when form returns nil."
2014-07-14T04:36:54Z Bike: You don't need to treat it as a top level form, is what I'm saying.
2014-07-14T04:37:28Z Bike: cl:load is essentially processing by cl:eval, and as you can see you don't have to do anything complicated.
2014-07-14T04:37:37Z Bike: (cl:load of a source file, not a fasl, i mean)
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2014-07-14T04:38:08Z drmeister: I'm being lazy - researching...
2014-07-14T04:39:53Z drmeister: MACROLET and SYMBOL-MACROLET
2014-07-14T04:40:06Z drmeister: 3.2.3.1
2014-07-14T04:42:04Z Bike: yes, several operators have to be treated specially as top level forms
2014-07-14T04:42:07Z drmeister: Maybe I should evaluate these in my interpreter - it handles this stuff properly.
2014-07-14T04:42:11Z Bike: really don't think you have to worry about that in the evaluator, though
2014-07-14T04:42:44Z drmeister: Why not?
2014-07-14T04:43:19Z Bike: because top level forms are a thing entirely for the file compilation semantics, and eval isn't doing that
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2014-07-14T04:47:29Z drmeister: Right.
2014-07-14T04:48:31Z drmeister: These problems are coming up when I use (load "asdf.lisp")   what do other Common Lisp implementations do when they load source?
2014-07-14T04:49:08Z pjb: drmeister: they do what's specified.
2014-07-14T04:49:09Z pjb: clhs load
2014-07-14T04:49:09Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm
2014-07-14T04:49:10Z drmeister: I would get the correct semantics if I were to (COMPILE-FILE "asdf.lisp") and (LOAD "asdf.bc")
2014-07-14T04:49:48Z Bike: load on an uncompiled file is just repeated eval
2014-07-14T04:50:06Z drmeister: That's where I got the term "implicit compilation".
2014-07-14T04:50:26Z Bike: hm, i think so, anyway
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2014-07-14T04:50:44Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-07-14T04:51:11Z Bike: well, if you just eval the whole form before moving to the next, that should do any necessary side effects
2014-07-14T04:51:24Z drmeister: "load must recognize top level forms as described in Section 3.2.3.1 (Processing of Top Level Forms) and arrange for each top level form to be executed before beginning implicit compilation of the next." - there you go.
2014-07-14T04:52:18Z drmeister: What I was doing was COMPILE the form and then eval that - that did not work properly.
2014-07-14T04:52:39Z Bike: hm hm.
2014-07-14T04:53:04Z Bike: Does (eval '(eval-when (:execute) ...)) work or no, then?
2014-07-14T04:53:35Z drmeister: That would work properly because it would invoke the interpreter's eval-when.
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2014-07-14T04:57:13Z drmeister: Currently what is happening is (EVAL (compile nil '(lambda (form &optional environment) (multiple-value-bind (compiled-function warn fail) (compile-in-env nil `(lambda () ,form) environment) (values compiled-function warn fail)))) )
2014-07-14T04:57:39Z drmeister: Where compile-in-env is essentially COMPILE
2014-07-14T04:58:42Z drmeister: This requires a more nuanced approach to achieve "load must recognize top level forms as described in Section 3.2.3.1 (Processing of Top Level Forms) and arrange for each top level form to be executed before beginning implicit compilation of the next."
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2014-07-14T05:00:08Z Bike: you sure? the outer eval should cover everything being executed, i would think
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2014-07-14T05:01:33Z drmeister: I'm sure,  (eval-when (:execute) (defmacro foo (x) ...) (defun bar (y) (foo y))) doesn't work.    The compiled code for bar doesn't know about foo.
2014-07-14T05:02:53Z Bike: i see.
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2014-07-14T05:04:17Z drmeister: I should write some code that processes the REPL form according to 3.2.3.1 and when it recognizes that its got a form that isn't top-level it compiles it.
2014-07-14T05:05:11Z drmeister: No - that's not quite it.
2014-07-14T05:05:50Z drmeister: It has to recognize the top-level forms and compile and evaluate them prior to compiling the next one.
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2014-07-14T05:06:55Z Bike:  (compile nil '(lambda () (eval-when (:execute) (defmacro foo (x) x) (defun bar (y) (foo y))))) => caught STYLE-WARNING: undefined function: FOO
2014-07-14T05:06:58Z Bike: in sbcl
2014-07-14T05:07:20Z Bike: hm hm hm
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2014-07-14T05:07:37Z drmeister: Yes - that's what mine was doing when it was completely naive.
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2014-07-14T05:11:21Z drmeister: This is what I use in COMPILE-FILE to recognize top-level forms.   Maybe this is sort of what I need.   It doesn't deal with MACROLET or SYMBOL-MACROLET though - perhaps this code is incomplete. https://gist.github.com/drmeister/c36eb36433c43ff4a470
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2014-07-14T05:14:31Z drmeister: And LOCALLY, mustn't forget LOCALLY (whatever it does).
2014-07-14T05:15:00Z drmeister learned what it did, implemented it, and then promptly forgot it.
2014-07-14T05:15:15Z beach: It lets you establish local declarations.
2014-07-14T05:17:52Z drmeister: Hi beach.  Ah yes - https://gist.github.com/drmeister/e80485895fc1246f4a49
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2014-07-14T05:19:44Z joe-w-bimedina: in a dotimes loop eg (dotimes (i 3) (princ i))  I would like to have princ print a countdown instead of printing what it normally prints. so the output would be 210 instead of 012 as it is now, how would i do that
2014-07-14T05:20:06Z pjb: (dotimes (i 3) (princ (- 3 i)))
2014-07-14T05:20:31Z joe-w-bimedina: cool man, I really appreciate that
2014-07-14T05:20:37Z pjb: well (dotimes (i 3) (princ (- 2  i))) since you want 210.
2014-07-14T05:20:57Z joe-w-bimedina: ok great
2014-07-14T05:22:05Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: have you even tried looking up DOTIMES in CLHS?
2014-07-14T05:22:47Z joe-w-bimedina: didnt occur to me there could be more to it than just (dotimes (n 100))
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2014-07-14T05:23:21Z pjb: Now of course, you could also use loop.
2014-07-14T05:23:51Z pjb: But you asked about princ, not about the loop variable, so there's no point in using loop.
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2014-07-14T05:24:27Z hitecnologys: pjb: I'd rather use loop to avoid unnecessary substraction.
2014-07-14T05:24:51Z pjb: Ok, then: (loop for i from 2 downto 0 do (princ i))
2014-07-14T05:27:08Z zRecursive: why named princ not print ?
2014-07-14T05:28:04Z zRecursive: ?
2014-07-14T05:28:39Z zRecursive: clhs princ
2014-07-14T05:28:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm
2014-07-14T05:30:01Z hitecnologys: zRecursive: I guess "C" has something to do with the word "character(s)".
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2014-07-14T05:32:02Z drmeister: Bike: I think I need to sleep on this one.
2014-07-14T05:32:02Z Bike: good luck
2014-07-14T05:32:02Z joe-w-bimedina: it just a simple one, i did it before but forgot the logic...so thanks again, and anyone on here from earlier I got threads figured out so thanks...
2014-07-14T05:32:04Z drmeister: I think it's going to involve creating top-level versions of the PROGN, EVAL-WHEN, LOCALLY, MACROLET and SYMBOL-MACROLET special operators in the interpreter and then compiling/evaluating the forms that they identify as non-top-level forms.
2014-07-14T05:32:04Z joe-w-bimedina: drmeister, where can I download CLASP, the latest version?
2014-07-14T05:32:05Z drmeister: Seriously, sometimes I feel like the CLHS was left by hyper-intelligent beings who left this monkey behind to figure out how to make their machines work.
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2014-07-14T05:32:05Z drmeister: joe-w-bimedina: It's not available yet.    It's in the hands of my IP people.
2014-07-14T05:32:05Z joe-w-bimedina: any time frame?
2014-07-14T05:32:05Z drmeister: Two weeks.
2014-07-14T05:32:05Z joe-w-bimedina: real exciting!...thanks drmeister:)
2014-07-14T05:32:45Z drmeister: And check out "The Money Pit" with Tom Hanks and Shelly Long - it was a great movie.
2014-07-14T05:32:54Z zRecursive: hitecnologys: I really donot know what 'c' means ?
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2014-07-14T05:34:31Z zRecursive: At least i know 'princ' is not a valid English word as "print"
2014-07-14T05:34:51Z hitecnologys: zRecursive: I don't know either.
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2014-07-14T05:40:20Z beach: drmeister: What made you refer to "The Money Pit"?
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2014-07-14T05:46:36Z drmeister: The contractors - when asked "how long until it's finished" would always answer "two weeks".
2014-07-14T05:47:47Z beach: Ah, OK.
2014-07-14T05:48:25Z drmeister: I've been saying I'm going to get this thing out soon for so long it's amazing I have even a shred of credibility in this group.
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2014-07-14T05:48:54Z drmeister: It. just. takes. so. long. to get everything working.
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2014-07-14T05:49:21Z drmeister: I try not to think about it, therein' lies madness - just keep moving forward.
2014-07-14T05:49:27Z beach: That's Hofstadter's law: It always takes longer than you expect, even if you take into account Hofstadter's law.
2014-07-14T05:50:01Z drmeister: Damn him.
2014-07-14T05:50:30Z drmeister: It's not right - coming up with laws that cause people to take so much time.
2014-07-14T05:50:43Z drmeister: Ain't got time for that.
2014-07-14T05:51:06Z beach: You must be new to software development. :)
2014-07-14T05:51:10Z drmeister: I'm tired and a bit punchy - sorry.
2014-07-14T05:51:33Z drmeister: I've been working on getting ASDF running on my system.    It's testing it in many new ways.
2014-07-14T05:52:04Z drmeister: Hah - no.   I just have a blissfully short memory for painful experiences.
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2014-07-14T05:55:51Z beach: drmeister: 6 months or so you told me that you did not consider translating your software to CL (rather than doing what you are doing) because you would lose C++ interoperability.  Does that mean you consider using your system for other existing software written in C++?
2014-07-14T05:57:54Z drmeister: Absolutely - case in point - I exposed  the Clang C++ library within Clasp and I wrote a C++ static analyzer that builds the interface (~10,000 loc) between my C++ code and the Memory Pool System garbage collector.
2014-07-14T05:58:50Z drmeister: I exposed the entire Clang C++ AST API and the ASTMatcher library.
2014-07-14T05:59:14Z beach: Sure, though that would not have been necessary if you had translated your software to CL.
2014-07-14T05:59:24Z drmeister: I plan to expose the QT library for graphics.
2014-07-14T05:59:41Z beach: I see.
2014-07-14T06:00:27Z drmeister: And there is the OpenMM library that uses GPU cards for molecular dynamics.
2014-07-14T06:00:38Z drmeister: How would I get access to those using CL?
2014-07-14T06:00:42Z beach: drmeister: Though, if I understand what you are doing, then existing C++ software would sometimes have to be modified to work correctly with your system, right?
2014-07-14T06:00:45Z drmeister: FFI hell.
2014-07-14T06:01:31Z drmeister: beach: Nope.   I didn't touch the LLVM or the Clang library.   It's all done with C++ template magic.
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2014-07-14T06:02:14Z beach: Right, but you had to modify your own molecular software.  No?
2014-07-14T06:03:07Z drmeister: I wrote my molecular software for it - to take advantage of garbage collection and first class functions.
2014-07-14T06:03:30Z beach: OK, but what about QT or OpenMM?
2014-07-14T06:03:45Z drmeister: No, I won't have to modify them at all.
2014-07-14T06:03:55Z beach: OK, good.
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2014-07-14T06:05:25Z drmeister: This describes how you interface C++ libraries with Clasp.  http://www.rasterbar.com/products/luabind/docs.html
2014-07-14T06:05:57Z drmeister: luabind is based on boost.python - a similar C++ template library that facilitates interfacing C++ code with Python.
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2014-07-14T06:07:21Z drmeister: I wrote a similar C++ template library to interface C++ with Clasp.   I stuck closely to the Luabind API so that I don't have to write documentation.   I'll just copy luabind's docs and change the parts that are different for "clasp-bind".
2014-07-14T06:07:54Z drmeister: I have permission from Arvid Norberg (author of luabind) to do that (with attribution of course).
2014-07-14T06:08:03Z beach: I understand.
2014-07-14T06:08:12Z drmeister: I like writing code - I don't like writing documentation.
2014-07-14T06:08:36Z drmeister: Which is largely why I chose Common Lisp as my target language.
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2014-07-14T07:15:50Z hitecnologys: How to properly do nothing? (loop (sleep most-positive-fixnum)) looks plain wrong. Me second attempt was to create a semaphore, toggle it and wait until it's toggled back (i.e. never) but I'm sure there's an easier way.
2014-07-14T07:16:49Z hitecnologys: In other words, how to do nothing and doesn't overwhelm CPU?
2014-07-14T07:17:14Z joe-w-bimedina: (loop (when nil (return))
2014-07-14T07:17:37Z joe-w-bimedina: just idea
2014-07-14T07:18:39Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: err, if we ignore the fact that SBCL will cut this construction out of LOOP, that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid: empty loops.
2014-07-14T07:19:01Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: they make processor actually do something instead of sleeping which is bad.
2014-07-14T07:19:28Z H4ns: hitecnologys: what do you not like about sleeping?
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2014-07-14T07:20:15Z joe-w-bimedina: i would like to know that too then
2014-07-14T07:20:19Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I doesn't have anothing against sleeping but it looks like a dirty hack. I'd like to hear how others deal with it.
2014-07-14T07:20:40Z joe-w-bimedina: i just use sleep
2014-07-14T07:20:40Z H4ns: hitecnologys: i don't understand you.  where is the dirt, where is the hack?
2014-07-14T07:21:20Z hitecnologys: H4ns: too simple.
2014-07-14T07:21:21Z joe-w-bimedina: you can use trickery with live code editing?
2014-07-14T07:21:45Z hitecnologys: H4ns: my eyes want to see something tricky and unusual.
2014-07-14T07:23:53Z drmeister: Bike: I stayed up way too late working on this - it does the trick though:   https://gist.github.com/drmeister/15001a7f7766ac2aa028
2014-07-14T07:24:41Z hitecnologys: Woops, s/semaphore/mutex/.
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2014-07-14T07:25:02Z drmeister: af_topLevelEvalWithEnv(form) dispatches to t1Evaluate which dispatches to top-level form evaluators.  When they run out of top-level-ness the call evalWithEnv which compiles and evaluates the compiled form.
2014-07-14T07:26:26Z drmeister: I'll fill in the rest of them tomorrow - 'night all.
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2014-07-14T07:28:16Z joe-w-bimedina: hitecnologys: to clarify with live code editing you udpated swank,  what if you could pause swank
2014-07-14T07:28:28Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: what?
2014-07-14T07:28:58Z joe-w-bimedina: may be dumb idea...dont know if possible but may be worth looking into
2014-07-14T07:29:10Z joe-w-bimedina: *update swank
2014-07-14T07:29:13Z hitecnologys: I don't understand your idea.
2014-07-14T07:30:35Z joe-w-bimedina: if you search my examples.lisp for #update-swank, it might give you ideas, again don't know if you can make swank wait though
2014-07-14T07:31:00Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec
2014-07-14T07:31:10Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: how's SWANK related to indefinite sleep state?
2014-07-14T07:31:22Z hitecnologys: What if I say that I need to wait until specific condition is signaled? Would that make things different?
2014-07-14T07:32:16Z joe-w-bimedina: well if you can "Grab SWANK connection and tells it to handle requests. ' maybe you can request a sleep state...I'm new to it anyway
2014-07-14T07:32:24Z joe-w-bimedina: i have example though
2014-07-14T07:33:10Z joe-w-bimedina: *Grab SWANK connection and tell it to handle requests.
2014-07-14T07:33:30Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: you're not making any sense.
2014-07-14T07:33:42Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec
2014-07-14T07:34:04Z H4ns: hitecnologys: he's trying to tell you that you could make your main thread listen for swank connections instead of doing nothing, which is a fair suggestion.
2014-07-14T07:34:23Z joe-w-bimedina: exactly
2014-07-14T07:34:24Z H4ns: hitecnologys: the usual disposition for the main thread is to have it deal with the repl.
2014-07-14T07:35:31Z hitecnologys: Hmm. But that means that I have to have SWANK loaded, no?
2014-07-14T07:35:45Z joe-w-bimedina: i think so...i do
2014-07-14T07:37:01Z hitecnologys: Whatever, I'll just stick to (loop (sleep very-big-number)) then.
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2014-07-14T07:41:48Z H4ns: hitecnologys: just wondering:  why don't you actually use your main thread for something sensible?
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2014-07-14T07:44:23Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I'm using it for all sorts of stuff, I didn't say I was trying to shut main thread up. I just need to hang and wait for ^C at one moment.
2014-07-14T07:45:06Z H4ns: hitecnologys: well, then sleeping seems proper.
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2014-07-14T08:39:29Z dseagrav: minion: memo for nyef: I made some improvements. Notice what is missing? https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12368207/IMG_5584.jpg
2014-07-14T08:39:30Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell nyef when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-07-14T09:01:06Z joe-w-bimedina: if I have a function in package one, I can call it in package two with the prefix cv:: without having to import it.  If I have a defgeneric named "size" in one package how do I call a  defmethod named "size" in another package without having to import the defgeneric...is it with (defmethod cv::my-method ....)
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2014-07-14T09:03:51Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: You are confused.  Packages do not contain functions or methods, only symbols.
2014-07-14T09:04:41Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: Whether a symbol names a function, a class, a type, or something else, you can always use an explicit package prefix with it.
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2014-07-14T09:05:19Z joe-w-bimedina: so i can call  (defmethod cv::my-method ....) and not import the defgeneric?
2014-07-14T09:05:42Z beach: You can't import the defgeneric.  Only symbols can be imported.
2014-07-14T09:06:00Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: However, if the symbol is not exported, and you are using the :: package marker, then you should be very suspicious, because you are violating an abstraction barrier.
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2014-07-14T09:06:53Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: And, yes, you can write use an explicit package marker on the name of a generic function.
2014-07-14T09:07:13Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: But I wouldn't call my generic function MY-METHOD.
2014-07-14T09:07:52Z joe-w-bimedina: just an abstraction...thank you for taking the time to help me with that
2014-07-14T09:07:53Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: And if you intend for that name to be used from another package, you should export it, and use a single package marker: cv:my-function.
2014-07-14T09:08:09Z joe-w-bimedina: is that safer?
2014-07-14T09:08:32Z Cymew: What beach said. If you are using the double colon, you're probably doing something wrong
2014-07-14T09:08:43Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: It has to do with maintainability.  If you use :: you are sending warning signals to the maintainer of your code.
2014-07-14T09:09:18Z joe-w-bimedina: so i would then even export my low-level functions if I need them in another package?
2014-07-14T09:09:20Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: Conversely, if you are not exporting some symbol, the message you are sending to the maintainer is that it can safely be removed or used differently.
2014-07-14T09:09:46Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: Depends on what you mean by "low level".
2014-07-14T09:10:03Z joe-w-bimedina: so should I export all my low-level functions...I mean defcfuns
2014-07-14T09:10:21Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: You should export symbols that are part of your API.
2014-07-14T09:10:23Z beach: Nothing else.
2014-07-14T09:10:39Z joe-w-bimedina: my user interface right?
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2014-07-14T09:11:39Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: I don't know whether your entire user interface is part of your API.  You have to make that decision yourself.  The API should contain relatively stable stuff that you agree to support in the future.
2014-07-14T09:11:43Z joe-w-bimedina: i have 1 package in my library that depends on another, btw
2014-07-14T09:12:05Z beach: That's beside the point.
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2014-07-14T09:12:32Z beach: You need to think about APIs and how you want your library to be presented to client code in a consistent way.
2014-07-14T09:12:48Z Cymew: joe-w-bimedina: I'm curious. What are you trying to do, really?
2014-07-14T09:13:04Z beach: Cymew: You will find the entire story by reading the logs.
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2014-07-14T09:13:07Z joe-w-bimedina: so when you said "if you intend for that name to be used from another package, you should export it" I intend for a lot of low-level functions to be used internally in other packages...so far I have been doing that with the :: prefix
2014-07-14T09:13:36Z joe-w-bimedina: *so when you said "if you intend for that name to be used from another package, you should export it" I intend for a lot of low-level functions to be used internally from other packages in other packages...so far I have been doing that with the :: prefix
2014-07-14T09:14:29Z Cymew: beach: I was offline untill this morning, so my scrollback doesn't go very far. But, it was just curiosity so no big deal.
2014-07-14T09:14:43Z joe-w-bimedina: Cygnew: now im gaining enough info to redesign part of my library
2014-07-14T09:14:48Z beach: minion: Please tell Cymew about logs.
2014-07-14T09:14:48Z minion: Cymew: direct your attention towards logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000)
2014-07-14T09:15:11Z Cymew: beach: Thanks! Didn't know about that feature
2014-07-14T09:15:19Z decent: That minion seems nice.
2014-07-14T09:15:32Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks for that
2014-07-14T09:16:38Z theos: why are CL logs stored on clozure server? suspicious o.0
2014-07-14T09:16:38Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: Short answer: use : and export.  Slightly longer answer: If you are using "low-level" functions from other packages, then be careful (depending on what you mean by "low level"), because you may be using functionality that should be internal to the library.
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2014-07-14T09:17:51Z joe-w-bimedina: i have package gc that depends on everything from package cv,  I use cv:: to import everything into package gc:: so far
2014-07-14T09:17:54Z Cymew: theos: Someone has to pay for the storage...
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2014-07-14T09:19:03Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: If package B "depends on everything" from package A, it doesn't seem reasonable to have two different packages.  But I don't know the details of course.  Again, it does not have to do with packages, but with your API.
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2014-07-14T09:20:09Z joe-w-bimedina: it is a specif case, I put all my TG finalize versions of functions into package gc so i can call them by gc:function
2014-07-14T09:20:20Z joe-w-bimedina: *TG finalizer
2014-07-14T09:20:29Z joe-w-bimedina: (specific
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2014-07-14T09:20:34Z joe-w-bimedina: *specific
2014-07-14T09:20:48Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: I have no idea what you are doing, so that kind of explanation doesn't help me.  I am just telling you to design your API properly.
2014-07-14T09:21:20Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: And please don't attempt to explain to me what you are doing.  I have read the logs, and I don't particularly want to get involved.
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2014-07-14T09:21:46Z joe-w-bimedina: I appreciate the advice and will get started on that tomorrow...thank you for the design advice
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2014-07-14T09:21:54Z beach: Anytime.
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2014-07-14T09:31:23Z flip214: after reading http://lispm.de/symbolics-lisp-machine-ergonomics I'm wondering whether the sources are still available somewhere ...
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2014-07-14T09:33:37Z beach: flip214: I think they are.  And I think some people are executing the code in an emulator.
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2014-07-14T09:34:29Z dseagrav: flip214: For what, Genera?
2014-07-14T09:35:19Z flip214: dseagrav: well, perhaps it could be ported to virt-io or something like that ... don't know, just curious.
2014-07-14T09:35:30Z schjetne: flip214: nice link, interesting read
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2014-07-14T09:35:38Z dseagrav: flip214: Not legally. Symbolics still exists.
2014-07-14T09:36:14Z dseagrav: The IP rights belong to some court somewhere. The owner died without a will, and all the property is in probate. The company still exists with a handful of employees supporting existing customers.
2014-07-14T09:36:31Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
2014-07-14T09:36:38Z dseagrav: You can buy a machine if you have a few thousand dollars and a way to get it from DC to wherever you are.
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2014-07-14T09:37:30Z dseagrav: See http://symbolics-dks.com/
2014-07-14T09:37:45Z dseagrav: (They had to sell symbolics.com to some domain speculator to keep the doors open)
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2014-07-14T09:40:00Z dseagrav: One of the Symbolics products was a "virtual lisp machine" that ran Genera in an X-window under DEC OSF/1 (later Tru64) on Alpha. Someone (har har) very illegally ported it to x86-64 Linux, and if make your Linux box sufficiently like OSF/1 (disable shadow passwords, install the Yellow Plague, etc) you can absolutely get sued for breaking the law.
2014-07-14T09:40:18Z dseagrav: That's the "emulator" people talk about
2014-07-14T09:40:48Z dseagrav: There isn't a proper XL emulator yet, mostly because I haven't been able to talk anyone out of a set of XL ROM dumps. Which is for the best, because such a thing would be totally absolutely illegal.
2014-07-14T09:41:40Z schjetne: It looks like the Space Cadet has unshifted parenthesis keys, did the modern Symbolics keyboards have that?
2014-07-14T09:41:53Z dseagrav: I believe so
2014-07-14T09:42:12Z schjetne: I need to get that, because I do get paren pinky after a long hacking session
2014-07-14T09:42:16Z dseagrav: IIRC they were where the [] keys are
2014-07-14T09:43:01Z dseagrav: You can't just abuse xmodmap or whatever is appropriate for your OS?
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2014-07-14T09:43:28Z dseagrav: On OS X the keymap is a bunch of XML files that you can freely edit, so you can make unshifted parens with a text editor.
2014-07-14T09:43:29Z schjetne: I use a Swedish keyboard Thinkpad, I could remap ö and ä I suppose
2014-07-14T09:43:55Z schjetne: and make those shifted instead
2014-07-14T09:44:08Z dseagrav: Honestly that would drive me up the wall (not having unshifted parens)
2014-07-14T09:44:32Z schjetne: well, put them in the same position, but under AltGr
2014-07-14T09:45:26Z beach: flip214: Even better would be to have a modern and free LispOS on stock hardware.
2014-07-14T09:45:42Z dseagrav: As if anyone wants to do that much work
2014-07-14T09:46:00Z schjetne: beach: My suggestion would be to start at the top and work down towards the hardware, like GNU did
2014-07-14T09:46:21Z dseagrav: and you'd just wind up getting sued by some clever monkey who patented the process of adding numbers to other numbers using a computer or something stupid like that
2014-07-14T09:46:33Z beach: schjetne: Being done right now.
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2014-07-14T09:47:42Z schjetne: You mean guix? I've been meaning to put some work into that.
2014-07-14T09:48:05Z beach: Me?  I don't know what guix is.
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2014-07-14T09:48:21Z schjetne: beach: https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/
2014-07-14T09:48:32Z beach: I mean that SICL has first-class global environments, which is what I need as a basis for a LispOS.
2014-07-14T09:48:35Z dseagrav: My pet theory is to first make an emulator that runs on bare metal, then when everything works well enough to prove your IO devices and so on, replace your CPU emulator with something that reads the load band and executes the macrocode directly. Then once that works, start replacing the device drivers for the original hardware items with lisp code that drives the modern PC equivalents. Then once that works, you're done. Call your macrocode-executing
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2014-07-14T09:49:40Z beach: schjetne: No, guix is not at all what I mean.
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2014-07-14T09:50:17Z dseagrav: The hard part is not getting sued by Symbolics or TI or LMI or whoever you based your work on.
2014-07-14T09:50:33Z brucem: beach: the Mirage Ocaml stuff is interesting as a parallel.
2014-07-14T09:51:46Z dseagrav: Symbolics would be the obvious favorite to steal, unless you're RMS anyway. Then there's LMI. TI is last because TI is big and has lots of lawyers and is unlikely to realize that TI Explorer means the lispm and not the TI calculator of the same name.
2014-07-14T09:51:51Z schjetne: dseagrav: I would work the other way, get a full graphical environment running on top of X, and slowly replacing more and more of the underlying pieces until you are left with the kernel. Then reimplement that in Lisp.
2014-07-14T09:51:58Z beach: brucem: Yeah, maybe so.
2014-07-14T09:52:07Z dseagrav: TI loves suing people who try to emulate their calculators.
2014-07-14T09:52:21Z schjetne: Even if the last step never finishes, like the HURD, we'd be left with a fairly decent system after all
2014-07-14T09:52:46Z beach agrees with schjetne.
2014-07-14T09:53:12Z dseagrav: schjetne: Oh, but the other way is more fun! I'll take low-level archaeology over boring UI grind any day.
2014-07-14T09:53:30Z dseagrav: (which is why nothing gets done, lol)
2014-07-14T09:54:11Z schjetne: dseagrav: I agree, but the UI grind you would have the benefit of your own dog food. It would be usable from day one.
2014-07-14T09:55:07Z schjetne: Also I feel the GNU Emacs and the various Scheme communities are necessary for momentum
2014-07-14T09:55:11Z dseagrav: Whereas with the emulator once you get the first phase done, you have a usable (just kinda slow) environment. Your improvement after that just makes it faster, since you're moving closer to bare metal.
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2014-07-14T09:57:21Z dseagrav: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12368207/IMG_5584.jpg <-- Here's a picture I took a few hours ago (I came here to annoy nyef with it. Yes, I know he hasn't been here for about a month...)
2014-07-14T09:57:45Z dseagrav: This is a somewhat modified Meroko running on bare metal
2014-07-14T09:58:12Z dseagrav: Timing is vastly improved from being under timesharing linux, I match clocks almost exactly.
2014-07-14T09:58:30Z dseagrav: All known IO device bugs are fixed, only CPU emulation bugs remain
2014-07-14T09:58:56Z dseagrav: As of now it reliably boots to REPL, the network interface works (but it's not configured, since it wasn't on the original machine)
2014-07-14T09:59:04Z dseagrav: I have it running the last release microcode
2014-07-14T09:59:19Z dseagrav: I have what I believe to be the last release of OS source
2014-07-14T10:00:02Z dseagrav: The emulator will run reliably for a half hour to 45 minutes or so before crashing. LMFS read works but writing files corrupts them.
2014-07-14T10:00:22Z dseagrav: This is much improved from the 1 to 5 minutes of run time I had before.
2014-07-14T10:00:51Z H4ns: dseagrav: awesome!
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2014-07-14T10:01:54Z dseagrav: The "kernel" will need some work before it can be distributed, I've only tested it on my one machine, it has "drivers" for only the stuff in that machine, and makes lots of assumptions about the hardware
2014-07-14T10:02:22Z dseagrav: But it's the first step
2014-07-14T10:02:41Z dseagrav: I've love to start over with XL1200 stuff but like I said, I haven't been able to talk anyone out of the ROMs.
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2014-07-14T10:02:57Z H4ns: did you try to get in touch with the holz brothers?
2014-07-14T10:03:32Z dseagrav: I don't even know who they are
2014-07-14T10:03:38Z H4ns: they're sitting on shitloads of explorers (and apollos, fwiw)
2014-07-14T10:03:48Z H4ns: wait, i'll try to locate some information
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2014-07-14T10:06:40Z brucem: dseagrav: see PM for a brief comment.
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2014-07-14T10:09:53Z dseagrav: Yeah, I know that symbolics is still developing OG
2014-07-14T10:10:07Z dseagrav: I'm just a wierdo who wants something on bare metal, just for the sake of it.
2014-07-14T10:10:26Z H4ns: symbolics is still developing og?  who tells you that?  i like to hear more!
2014-07-14T10:10:46Z dseagrav: Of course they are, they still have customers
2014-07-14T10:11:20Z Xach: That does not strongly imply there is continuing development.
2014-07-14T10:11:37Z H4ns: as far as i know, dave schmidt has sold symbolics.com and just keeps his warehouse open for his existing customers
2014-07-14T10:11:55Z dseagrav: Customers have needs, and you don't keep the doors open decades after your owner dies just replacing hardware.
2014-07-14T10:11:59Z H4ns: haha
2014-07-14T10:12:28Z H4ns: dseagrav: do you have any evidence or are you just saying what you like to believe?  i'm genuinely interested.
2014-07-14T10:12:31Z dseagrav: There HAS to be ongoing development to have kept them alive so long, and why keep programmer(s?) on staff if you're just doing hardware work?
2014-07-14T10:12:58Z Xach: Don't underestimate the power of craziness, too.
2014-07-14T10:13:04Z Xach: Crazy customers, crazy vendors.
2014-07-14T10:13:36Z H4ns: as far as i could infer from research, symbolics nowadays is dave schmidt (hardware maintenance) and kaiman reti (software go-to person).
2014-07-14T10:14:09Z dseagrav: Believe what you want to. I've deliberately stayed a bit away from symbolics because if I start emulating their stuff I don't want them kicking my door in before I've had my fun
2014-07-14T10:14:11Z H4ns: and that is it.  it is the smallest form of they that you can have, really, and they're mostly retired, as far as i understand.
2014-07-14T10:14:48Z H4ns: right.  fear the fist of their lawyers when they come down on you to smash you.
2014-07-14T10:15:06Z H4ns: Xach: it is impossible to underestimate the power of craziness
2014-07-14T10:15:55Z dseagrav: I'm really not all that worried about dave or kaiman dropping lawyers on me; It's that shadowy legal mess above them that worries me.
2014-07-14T10:16:51Z schjetne: Wasn't there talks about releasing it under a free license a few years ago? I wouldn't be surprised if it's that shadowy legal mess getting in the way
2014-07-14T10:17:00Z dseagrav: Exactly
2014-07-14T10:17:03Z Xach: Don't worry. Work anonymously. Nobody is going to deduce that Daniel Seagraves and dseagrav are the same person.
2014-07-14T10:17:08Z Xach: I won't tell, certainly.
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2014-07-14T10:17:36Z dseagrav: Xach: Working anonymously implies you know you are committing a crime and are trying to conceal it.
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2014-07-14T10:18:19Z dseagrav: "It's better to beg forgiveness than to seek permission" doesn't work if you get caught trying to hide it.
2014-07-14T10:19:29Z p_l: H4ns: there was some minor evidence of further VLM2 ports
2014-07-14T10:19:43Z schjetne: I'd love to have a more complete Lisp system as a daily driver, even if Genera would be released today, would it even be a good candidate. I have no experience with it other than seeing it demontrated on YouTube.
2014-07-14T10:19:44Z p_l: dseagrav: but not much more than those ports when it came to OF
2014-07-14T10:19:46Z p_l: *OG
2014-07-14T10:19:47Z H4ns: dseagrav: i'm really interested in the ti work anyway.  i have a microexplorer that does not work very well, but it was fun to use when it worked.
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2014-07-14T10:20:32Z H4ns: schjetne: genera is really really old fashioned.  it is like a very old very fancy car.  it is very nice and impressive, but more for putting in a garage than to actually use.
2014-07-14T10:20:47Z dseagrav: Yeah
2014-07-14T10:20:50Z schjetne: H4ns: that's what I thought
2014-07-14T10:20:55Z p_l seems to recall screens of ppc and x86 versions of OG's VLM2
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2014-07-14T10:21:05Z dseagrav: Whatever happens it's going to take a lot of work to make it suitable to use for daily work
2014-07-14T10:21:16Z dseagrav: It needs an IRC client for one thing
2014-07-14T10:21:21Z H4ns: schjetne: genera in particular is rather crappy as development has stopped in the middle of the transition from zeta lisp to common lisp.  and that transition was not even decided.
2014-07-14T10:22:03Z H4ns: schjetne: also, window system is still flavors based to a large extent, which does not play very nice with clos.
2014-07-14T10:22:57Z H4ns: schjetne: it would take many years of serious engineering to transform genera into something useful today.  and it would not make much sense, because it is architected around an obsolete machine and resource constraints model.
2014-07-14T10:23:13Z dseagrav: p_l: The PPC port actually existed, at least inside Symbolics. Didn't work, but it did exist.
2014-07-14T10:23:35Z dseagrav: p_l: There's references to its development in the VLM stuff.
2014-07-14T10:23:41Z H4ns: well, the vlm source is readily available, anyone is free to hack on it if they don't fear the lawyers
2014-07-14T10:23:56Z dseagrav: Yeah
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2014-07-14T10:24:16Z dseagrav: The problem is that the VLM doesn't have the memory mapper or other ivory things needed to run a bare-metal world
2014-07-14T10:24:49Z dseagrav: and there's enough of the lisp-world source missing that trying to build it out would be a major pain
2014-07-14T10:24:52Z p_l: I think the suing party would first need to untangle the legal mess
2014-07-14T10:25:08Z H4ns: there is nobody who would sue
2014-07-14T10:25:13Z dseagrav: So the VLM is nice for being a VLM but you can't make a LM out of it.
2014-07-14T10:25:59Z H4ns: talk to beach if you want to make a lm - he's got the right balance of crazy and realistic :)
2014-07-14T10:26:18Z dseagrav: I already DID make a lm, I just have to debug it
2014-07-14T10:26:30Z schjetne: I wonder what the best route is to get an equivalent system for modern use on top of GNU/Linux. I don't have experience with McCLIM.
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2014-07-14T10:27:01Z dseagrav: Equivalent to what, LM or VLM?
2014-07-14T10:27:16Z H4ns: a lisp machine on top of gnu and linux is, wait, sbcl?
2014-07-14T10:27:59Z schjetne: Ergonomically equivalent to using a Lisp machine in the 1980s
2014-07-14T10:28:09Z dseagrav: You can't get a LM equivalent unless you replaced init with sbcl or something and wrote a world on top of that.
2014-07-14T10:28:22Z p_l: dseagrav: not really...
2014-07-14T10:28:27Z dseagrav: because the lisp world can't get outside the lisp interpreter
2014-07-14T10:28:41Z schjetne: dseagrav: GNU dmd would certainly help
2014-07-14T10:28:44Z p_l: THe question is whether you're updating or not
2014-07-14T10:29:08Z p_l: dseagrav: an interesting approach would be L4/Linux, with Linux serving as hw server
2014-07-14T10:29:08Z H4ns: schjetne: everybody will probably have a different opinion, but my definition of an "equivalent" would be a system in which i can debug the device drivers, network and application code all in the same lisp system.
2014-07-14T10:29:25Z H4ns: schjetne: and from that perspective, there will never ever be a proper lisp machine "based on" gnu and linux.
2014-07-14T10:29:28Z dseagrav: What's why the LM is special, there's no "interpreter" at the bottom of it that you can't get out of
2014-07-14T10:30:08Z schjetne: Yes, systems programming will of course always suffer.
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2014-07-14T10:35:07Z gta: hi wonder if anyone is using cl-facebook around here
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2014-07-14T10:40:59Z Cymew: There's always Movitz, if someones wants to run lisp on bare metal...
2014-07-14T10:47:47Z schjetne: I'm doing application development against a deadline, so what I want most of all is improve the ergonomics of my current GNU/Linux setup, to make it a bit more LispM-like
2014-07-14T10:48:17Z H4ns: schjetne: slime is your best bet.
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2014-07-14T10:49:22Z schjetne: H4ns: I use SLIME, Quicklisp and Paredit, in i3 (because I ran out of time configuring StumpWM)
2014-07-14T10:50:08Z schjetne: And library docs and hyperspec in the web browser, which is pretty uncomfortable. I need to look into that
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2014-07-14T10:50:49Z dto: schjetne: you may wish to obtain the GNU TexInfo formatted version of the ANSI draft CL standard for easy reference iwthin emacs
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2014-07-14T10:51:25Z schjetne: dto: I will. Unfortunately there isn't really a standard for library docs
2014-07-14T10:51:57Z dto: schjetne: not at the moment, correct. i wish there was
2014-07-14T10:52:12Z dto: i would love it it quicklisp did something
2014-07-14T10:52:22Z dto: such as extract docstrings
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2014-07-14T10:52:51Z schjetne: I've tried using Declt to turn docstrings into texinfo
2014-07-14T10:53:10Z schjetne: It kind of works, but it doesn't seem to integrate well with handwritten docs
2014-07-14T10:53:37Z schjetne: I don't know if the CL community can be convinced to standardize on Texinfo
2014-07-14T10:53:45Z H4ns: it can not.
2014-07-14T10:53:55Z H4ns: the cl community can not be convinced to anything :)
2014-07-14T10:54:01Z didi: :^(
2014-07-14T10:54:14Z schjetne: Being rewritten in Perl and being horribly slow doesn't exactly help
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2014-07-14T10:56:02Z dto: i rolled a custom doc string extractor which outputted to emacs org-mode format for making into a webpage etc ,that could also include static .org file portions so that you don't have JUST docstrings but can also have an intro etc
2014-07-14T10:56:03Z schjetne: actually I'd love to see a new typesetting engine that's more dynamic and less batch-oriented than TeX. Something that not only works for print, but for interactive on-screen documents. Something that has the best of both TeX and HTML
2014-07-14T10:56:22Z schjetne: I wonder how Symbolics did it with Concordia
2014-07-14T10:56:57Z schjetne: Info but with beautiful typography and support for graphics
2014-07-14T10:57:09Z didi: Info supports graphics.
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2014-07-14T10:59:28Z schjetne: didi: when it's compiled to info and not TeX? I can't remember seeing any in Emacs, although Emacs itself would be capable of showing graphics
2014-07-14T10:59:42Z didi: schjetne: (info "(texinfo) Images")
2014-07-14T10:59:45Z dto: i think the graphics only appear on tex
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2014-07-14T11:01:23Z didi: schjetne: It may be a stylistic choice. I've read opinions against using graphics on technical documents.
2014-07-14T11:02:09Z H4ns: didi: misguided opinions
2014-07-14T11:02:37Z didi: H4ns: I don't get it either.
2014-07-14T11:03:03Z dto: id rather have support for diagrams than beautiful typography. otherwise library docs will end up looking like Medium.com blogs
2014-07-14T11:03:05Z dto: :)
2014-07-14T11:04:01Z dto: schjetne: what else do you need besides emacs/slime?
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2014-07-14T11:05:28Z schjetne: dto: I looked at Medium.com, it certainly didn't look very nice to me. Of course a techincal document needs to set according to the tone of a techincal document, otherwise it wouldn't be good typography.
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2014-07-14T11:06:03Z dto: i'm just kidding around , yes :)
2014-07-14T11:06:27Z schjetne: dto: A better email client, I think Gnus suffers from some of the inherent limitations of Elisp
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2014-07-14T11:06:47Z schjetne: basically a faster one, but just as lispy
2014-07-14T11:06:48Z dto: i agree mostly, haven't used Gnus in ages
2014-07-14T11:07:45Z schjetne: It should probably be implemented as a CLIM program
2014-07-14T11:08:09Z dto: hrmmm im not sure anyone uses clim
2014-07-14T11:08:10Z H4ns: schjetne: is there any clim program that you regularly use?
2014-07-14T11:08:10Z schjetne: CLIM development doesn't seem to be very active
2014-07-14T11:08:17Z schjetne: no
2014-07-14T11:08:25Z schjetne: I tried Climacs and CLIM-listener
2014-07-14T11:08:33Z schjetne: Didn't find them terribly useful
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2014-07-14T11:12:56Z dto: unfortunately there seems to be no good way to make a typical native-looking cross platform GUI.
2014-07-14T11:13:39Z dto: i ended up rolling all my own opengl stuff.
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2014-07-14T11:21:57Z samebchase: I'm using Restas. How do I enable the full backtrace to be printed instead of just seeing a "Internal Error Page"?
2014-07-14T11:22:25Z H4ns: hunchentoot:*show-lisp-errors-p* maybe?
2014-07-14T11:23:06Z samebchase: H4ns: thanks, I'll check that out.
2014-07-14T11:23:09Z jusss: help! http://paste.ubuntu.com/7793025/
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2014-07-14T11:23:53Z H4ns: jusss: first indent your code, then specify your question better than just typing "help"
2014-07-14T11:23:54Z jusss: undefined variable: f2 v1
2014-07-14T11:24:18Z H4ns: jusss: what's not clear about that? where are f2 and v1 defined?
2014-07-14T11:24:21Z samebchase: jusss: what are you trying to do?
2014-07-14T11:25:40Z jusss: samebchase: understand context
2014-07-14T11:26:22Z jusss: H4ns: (setq f2..) doesn't define variable f2?
2014-07-14T11:26:28Z H4ns: jusss: no.
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2014-07-14T11:27:34Z jusss: H4ns: why?
2014-07-14T11:27:44Z H4ns: jusss: because that is not what setq does.
2014-07-14T11:27:52Z H4ns: jusss: read a introduction to common lisp.
2014-07-14T11:27:55Z samebchase: H4ns: that worked nicely. I can debug a lot easily now.
2014-07-14T11:28:00Z schjetne: Interestingly I've used radar consoles with a surprisingly LispM-like UI. Specifically with three button mice with specific actions rather than a context menu
2014-07-14T11:30:33Z schjetne: With the different actions displayed in a mode line at the bottom of the screen
2014-07-14T11:30:56Z H4ns: that is how many 1980ies graphical user interfaces worked
2014-07-14T11:31:27Z H4ns: i had the "pleasure" to work with apollo's domain/os for a bit, and that was similar.
2014-07-14T11:31:29Z schjetne: I guess they just took the software from those units and ported them to Windows XP
2014-07-14T11:31:30Z Cymew: I think CLIM and anything like that is a dead end
2014-07-14T11:32:00Z schjetne: But I've never understood the fascination for making embedded systems with Windows XP
2014-07-14T11:32:03Z Cymew: X is so dominant that X/Wayland is what you have to bulld upon
2014-07-14T11:32:22Z H4ns: Cymew: and that does not with clim precisely how?
2014-07-14T11:33:21Z schjetne: What does Racket do?
2014-07-14T11:34:22Z Cymew: Missing a "work" there, or what do you mean?
2014-07-14T11:34:22Z schjetne: GTK, it seems
2014-07-14T11:35:09Z schjetne: I think a new toolkit should be usable across CL and several Scheme implementations. Such a project would need all the community momentum it can get
2014-07-14T11:35:26Z H4ns: Cymew: i mean that clim and x/wayland are completely orthogonal.  saying that "clim is a dead end" because "x/wayland dominates" does not make any sense.
2014-07-14T11:36:05Z Cymew: Maybe I'm not just expressing what I mean in an understandable fashion
2014-07-14T11:36:12Z H4ns: schjetne: are you saying that you want to propose a graphics toolkit that not only unites the "cl community", but also the includes the "scheme community" at the same time?
2014-07-14T11:36:26Z Guthur`: sounds like a bridge too far there
2014-07-14T11:37:05Z Cymew: I think you have to build a CL GUI to be a X/Wayland GUI, not something out of the left field. CLIM sitting dead on the vine being an effect of not doing that. I might be wrong.
2014-07-14T11:37:49Z Guthur`: the truth is that Scheme and CL are not as similar as they would supervisually appear
2014-07-14T11:38:12Z Guthur`: superficially
2014-07-14T11:38:27Z Cymew: i.e. if you do something different, people will shy away because different means "strange" and people don't adopt strange.
2014-07-14T11:38:44Z H4ns: not to mention that the "scheme community" is at least as fragmented and non-uniform as the "cl community"
2014-07-14T11:38:57Z Guthur`: Cymew: yeah but then you would using a language based of the C++ syntax
2014-07-14T11:38:58Z Cymew: Goes without saying...
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2014-07-14T11:39:20Z Cymew: Guthur`: I don't know
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2014-07-14T11:39:34Z theos: C++ has a syntax? :D
2014-07-14T11:39:40Z Guthur`: many languages have been design with that in mind
2014-07-14T11:39:45Z schjetne: It may not be a terribly realistic prospect, but the alternative is Unix-like as a lowest common denominator
2014-07-14T11:39:50Z antoszka: H4ns: what's that apollo thing you mentioned if you excuse my curiosity?
2014-07-14T11:39:55Z Guthur`: theos: it does, just not reasonably parseable
2014-07-14T11:40:12Z schjetne: And whatever we're doing right now, with GTK and similar
2014-07-14T11:40:26Z Guthur`: jury is out on whether it is actually parseable in this world at all
2014-07-14T11:40:44Z H4ns: antoszka: apollo had a proprietary distributed operating system called domain/os with a unix personality (domain/ix), a kernel called aegis and a proprietary gui system.
2014-07-14T11:40:44Z Cymew: But, at least you have to build a GUI using the same ideas as X. If you build it on an event loop, and the rest of the world find event loops strange you will probably not succeed.
2014-07-14T11:41:12Z antoszka: H4ns: will google that, thanks.
2014-07-14T11:41:28Z H4ns: antoszka: it looked like this: http://www.betaarchive.com/imageupload/2012-04/1335591029.th.60938.png
2014-07-14T11:41:38Z H4ns: notize the "Command:" prompt in the status line
2014-07-14T11:41:54Z Cymew: I feel I'm not being very good at expressing my point today.
2014-07-14T11:42:03Z antoszka: H4ns: Yeah. But the graphics are kinda Atari ST-like...
2014-07-14T11:42:10Z H4ns: Cymew: i think you need to straighten out on your terminology.
2014-07-14T11:42:21Z antoszka: With a touch of acme.
2014-07-14T11:42:32Z antoszka: Or plan9.
2014-07-14T11:42:36Z H4ns: Cymew: it seems that when you're saying "x", you really talk about the desktop systems built on top of it, which all borrow most of their ideas from windows.
2014-07-14T11:42:42Z H4ns: antoszka: yeah.  same vintage :)
2014-07-14T11:42:53Z joga: H4ns, neat
2014-07-14T11:43:18Z H4ns: antoszka: notice also that the terminal windows have a separate input line.  you edited your command there, only with <enter> was it sent to the system for execution.
2014-07-14T11:43:28Z H4ns: antoszka: that did not fare so well with domain/ix really.
2014-07-14T11:43:35Z antoszka: right
2014-07-14T11:43:38Z Cymew: Core idea: I think CLIM is too different from how X work. Maybe I'm conflating X with the things that run on top of X.
2014-07-14T11:44:01Z antoszka: H4ns: did you actually work on those things? or just fiddled around?
2014-07-14T11:44:04Z p_l: H4ns: seems like the ISPF access mode for z/OS "unix" part
2014-07-14T11:44:21Z Cymew: There's a "unix" part of z/OS?
2014-07-14T11:44:25Z H4ns: Cymew: it is fair to say that clim is too different from modern desktop environments to be easily accepted by users.
2014-07-14T11:44:39Z Cymew: I think we agree on that part, yes.
2014-07-14T11:44:56Z H4ns: antoszka: as a student, i was an admin and had to take care of a bunch of those.
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2014-07-14T11:45:18Z antoszka: H4ns: Cool :)
2014-07-14T11:45:58Z H4ns: sorry for the off-topic, though :/
2014-07-14T11:45:58Z theos: those things looks old
2014-07-14T11:46:28Z H4ns: theos: i tell you a secret:  they look old because they _are_ old :)
2014-07-14T11:46:41Z theos: heh :D
2014-07-14T11:46:58Z theos: H4ns must be the good ol times :)
2014-07-14T11:47:40Z p_l: Cymew: z/OS actually passed SUSv3, iirc...
2014-07-14T11:48:24Z p_l: could reasonably expect to compile clisp or ecl on it
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2014-07-14T11:51:39Z p_l: (ABCL should work like a charm)
2014-07-14T11:51:43Z Cymew: Interesting. You learn new things every day at #lisp, about DomainOS and z/OS even. ;)
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2014-07-14T11:54:19Z Cymew: When it comes to getting a lispy environment for work, I suggest getting a CL based emacs clone you can run stuff like a mail reader/irc client/documentation reader/etc in would be the first step.
2014-07-14T11:55:16Z jdz: or "just" a web browser
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2014-07-14T11:57:33Z schjetne: Isn't one of the most prominent features of the Unix paradigm the of pipes, streams, sockets, and C FFIs, that lets different languages and environments coexist? It seems unreasonable to expect that all good software be written in CL (and a lot of work reimplementing it all, such as an init system in place of dmd)
2014-07-14T11:58:10Z H4ns: schjetne: the "unix paradigm" is not the natural law or anything, it is just a paradigm.
2014-07-14T11:58:17Z schjetne: Perhaps that's the starting point of a modern Lisp environment, to abstract away all that Unix business so different programs can be integrated in a more lispy fasion
2014-07-14T11:58:22Z schjetne: fashion*
2014-07-14T11:58:54Z H4ns: schjetne: and furthermore, nowadays, the interface between components is often really byte streams, but rather the calling convention of the c language.
2014-07-14T11:59:12Z H4ns: NOT really byte streams, i mean
2014-07-14T11:59:34Z ggole: That's not unrelated to the so-called Unix philosophy, though
2014-07-14T12:00:04Z H4ns: ggole: the c language interface is not so much the unix philosophy, but what we've got instead of it.
2014-07-14T12:00:05Z ggole: C calling conventions and data structures are very low level and are "reachable" from many different imaginable environments
2014-07-14T12:01:16Z schjetne: Wasn't C designed to implement Unix with? And most other languages, Lisp family or not, still do a lot of work through C FFIs, such as GUI toolkits
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2014-07-14T12:02:37Z ggole: Some people seem to want to replace that arrangement with an environment such as the JVM or browser
2014-07-14T12:02:42Z schjetne: The more that can be implemented in Lisp the better, obviously, but that would lead to a lot of duplication of effort when someone inevitably insists on using a different dialect
2014-07-14T12:02:48Z ggole: Which quite frankly gives me the shivers
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2014-07-14T12:05:08Z schjetne: How did the LispMs deal with this problem?
2014-07-14T12:05:26Z H4ns: schjetne: they did not have the problem, because they were completely written in lisp
2014-07-14T12:05:54Z schjetne: I'm guessing all other languages and dialects would run through interpreters and VMs written in the base Lisp dialect
2014-07-14T12:05:55Z H4ns: schjetne: everything from scheduler to device drivers to gui, all in one language.  which is the one property that makes them desireable to me :)
2014-07-14T12:06:34Z ggole: There were C compilers that were used to run pre-existing software, afaik
2014-07-14T12:06:51Z H4ns: there also was a symbolics pascal compiler i think
2014-07-14T12:06:59Z ggole: Which compiled to lisp
2014-07-14T12:07:39Z H4ns: but the whole business of supporting multiple languages was not so much of a concern to lisp machines.  these were machines designed to run lisp fast, and they got out of business because machines designed to run c could run lisp faster.
2014-07-14T12:07:51Z ggole: This is the same solution as asm.js or non-Java languages running on the JVM: interop by bringing 'em into the fold
2014-07-14T12:08:36Z ggole: Cheaper, too
2014-07-14T12:11:28Z Cymew: Did the Symbolics C compiler compile into lisp? I thought it compiled to machine code (which I guess is some kind of lisp on LispM)
2014-07-14T12:14:34Z schjetne: I wonder what's a good strategy for implementing FFIs from other languages to CL
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2014-07-14T12:15:14Z ggole: I'm not sure: there was a translator called Zeta-C that compiled C into Lisp, but the Symbolics software was something else
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2014-07-14T12:18:37Z H4ns: schjetne: that certainly depends on the context, but in general, you would create a ffi api which would be on a very low level of abstraction so that any other language can call it.
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2014-07-14T12:19:25Z schjetne: H4ns: C to CL, then, and from every other language through their existing C FFIs?
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2014-07-14T12:21:29Z H4ns: schjetne: either that, or http.  or some other rpc mechanism.
2014-07-14T12:22:00Z H4ns: schjetne: it all depends on context.  there is no one-fits-all solution in software architecture.
2014-07-14T12:22:26Z schjetne: Maybe something like the Swank server
2014-07-14T12:22:29Z Cymew: ggole: ok I found some Symbolics code somewhere once. Maybe there was some source there that would tell.
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2014-07-14T12:41:22Z dim: hi
2014-07-14T12:41:48Z dim: are there some resources available to convert from a Code Page (as in http://www-01.ibm.com/software/globalization/ccsid/ccsid819.html) to a babel encoding?
2014-07-14T12:42:38Z dim: I guess I basically want http://www-01.ibm.com/software/globalization/ccsid/ccsid_registered.html in terms of lisp forms
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2014-07-14T12:56:03Z Guthur`: schjetne: the problem with using swank for what would essentially be RPC is that it isn't a well documented protocol
2014-07-14T12:56:42Z Guthur`: if RPC was desired interface protocol then something like JSON-RPC would be appropriate
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2014-07-14T12:57:07Z didi: No sexps?
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2014-07-14T12:57:39Z Guthur`: sexps is convenient for the host language, not so for most possible clients
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2014-07-14T12:58:23Z Guthur`: JSON on the other hand is very common and likely supported by many possible clients
2014-07-14T12:58:56Z Guthur`: but as H4ns mentioned there are number of ways to roll with FFI
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2014-07-14T13:02:42Z didi: I would rather have foreign code running outside my Lisp process.
2014-07-14T13:03:44Z Guthur`: that would be the nature of it, though LW has some compile to library feature iirc
2014-07-14T13:04:08Z Guthur`: but for most CLs you would be running a CL process then foreign code would call into it
2014-07-14T13:04:18Z Guthur`: it owuld not be running inside you Lisp process
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2014-07-14T13:04:34Z Guthur`: that is the nature RPC, you have defined interface for clients to call
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2014-07-14T13:05:26Z didi: Guthur`: You mentioned "FFI", which I translate to CFFI and the like. Maybe I should expand my understanding of it.
2014-07-14T13:05:56Z Guthur`: yeah, in the context of the conversation it had a broader definition
2014-07-14T13:06:02Z didi: Sorry.
2014-07-14T13:06:19Z Guthur`: where by any foreign code was calling CL
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2014-07-14T13:20:37Z Cymew: Talking about Genera compilers. Anyone have any documentation of what the COMPILER:QC-FILE-<foo> functions do?
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2014-07-14T13:31:26Z schjetne: Guthur` didi: I should probably look into JSON-RPC, and perhaps Apache Thrift
2014-07-14T13:32:36Z H4ns: schjetne: or zeromq
2014-07-14T13:32:40Z schjetne: But I prefer working with sexpr
2014-07-14T13:32:42Z didi: schjetne: I still think sexps are the way to go.
2014-07-14T13:33:32Z schjetne: cons cells are fairly straight forward to work with in any language, it's just a pair of pointers
2014-07-14T13:33:33Z Guthur`: H4ns: we are mixing a few concerns here though, invocation protocol and transport
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2014-07-14T13:33:57Z Guthur`: though both need consider for sure
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2014-07-14T13:34:21Z H4ns: Guthur`: i don't know anything about what schjetne wants to do, so it is not a very concentrated discussion in any case :)
2014-07-14T13:34:31Z schjetne: H4ns: zeromq looks pretty cool
2014-07-14T13:34:44Z Guthur`: H4ns: ah, indeed
2014-07-14T13:34:55Z H4ns: but saying that s-expressions would be better as a language neutral data format than json would not be very smart, i'd say
2014-07-14T13:35:16Z H4ns: the world does not need another ill-specified attempt to make something that is xml, but nicer.
2014-07-14T13:35:26Z H4ns: if xml is too hard, json should be just fine.
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2014-07-14T13:36:29Z schjetne: H4ns: most immediately I'm thinking of doing a back office UI to a CL web app as a desktop program, but in the long run I'm interested in integrating my lisp environment a bit
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2014-07-14T13:39:03Z schjetne: And it's no secret I'm biased towards Lisp, so language neutrality is not a concern
2014-07-14T13:39:58Z H4ns: schjetne: ah, i completely missed that.  for lisp-to-lisp communication sexprs are certainly just fine.
2014-07-14T13:43:25Z beach: Cymew: I am working on CLIM3 (specification + implementation) which would be a more modern GUI toolkit entirely written in Lisp.
2014-07-14T13:44:02Z schjetne: beach: CLIMatis?
2014-07-14T13:44:10Z beach: Yes, that's the implementation.
2014-07-14T13:44:35Z Cymew: beach: Really? Interesting. I didn't know anyone did work on anything CLIM these days. Great to hear.
2014-07-14T13:44:50Z beach: moore33 and myself have started hashing out the last missing piece, namely how to simplify presentation types compared to CLIM II.
2014-07-14T13:45:26Z beach: I was about to start writing up that part of the specification.
2014-07-14T13:45:34Z schjetne: beach: I'm going to look into that
2014-07-14T13:45:50Z beach: Good.
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2014-07-14T13:47:47Z faheem: drmeister: sorry, i meant llvm
2014-07-14T13:48:49Z beach: The more work I do on CLIM3/CLIMatis, the more I realize what Scott McKay meant when he wrote the CLIM II specification.  So I might improve McCLIM in parallel and it might even be possible to factor some code between the two.
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2014-07-14T14:00:46Z oleo: jo beach! :)
2014-07-14T14:01:31Z beach: Hello oleo.
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2014-07-14T14:03:11Z beach: H4ns: Nothing prevents anyone from writing a CLIM II application that looks like any old modern GUI application.  There is no need to use the command-line interface that so many CLIM applications had before.
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2014-07-14T14:04:38Z H4ns: beach: i know.  it is just that clim does not provide for the abstractions needed in a modern user interface.
2014-07-14T14:05:00Z H4ns: beach: so while it is possible to create something that "looks modern" in clim, it is not the thing that it is really meant to be used for.
2014-07-14T14:05:20Z H4ns: beach: at least that was my experience when i tried to use mcclim years ago.
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2014-07-14T14:06:09Z beach: H4ns: Oh, let's not confuse CLIM (as in the CLIM II specification) and McCLIM.  Sure there might be gadgets that modern GUI toolkits have that are not (yet) in McCLIM, if that's what you mean.
2014-07-14T14:07:23Z oleo: i like clim somehow.....
2014-07-14T14:07:32Z oleo: most than anything else out there....
2014-07-14T14:07:52Z H4ns: beach: quite possible.  i don't intend to say that a better clim implementation that has all the bells end whistles would not be good.
2014-07-14T14:07:54Z beach: oleo: I do too.
2014-07-14T14:08:12Z beach: H4ns: OK, got it.
2014-07-14T14:08:45Z hijarian: Hello! Does anyone knows where the most current and maintained source tree of Stefil library lies? In here: http://dwim.hu/live/hu.dwim.stefil/, in here: http://common-lisp.net/project/stefil/darcs/stefil or in here: https://github.com/luismbo/stefil? The one on GitHub looks like fork, though. I have asked at #dwim.hu but I honestly don't know whether there is anyone active today.
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2014-07-14T14:12:06Z Xach: One option is to check the version control history for recent updates.
2014-07-14T14:12:12Z Xach: That can often give you email addresses to try, too.
2014-07-14T14:13:03Z hitecnologys: hijarian: you can also look at last date of update. The one that was updated most recently is probably maintained.
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2014-07-14T14:16:46Z hijarian: hitecnologys: last updated is the version from Github, but I surely can't recognise whether it's a fork or whatnot.
2014-07-14T14:17:11Z hijarian: Xach: OMG how could I forget that the commit history contains emails. (facepalm)
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2014-07-14T14:24:39Z dim: is there code in lisp already available to read the "packed decimal for the System/370" format?
2014-07-14T14:24:49Z dim: (what they call DECIMAL in IXF IBM file format)
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2014-07-14T14:31:53Z hitecnologys: dim: I don't think so.
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2014-07-14T14:35:12Z faheem: i was just looking at julia. it looks quite interesting (and anything that takes market/mind share away from matlab is good). however, i wish people would put some of these resources into common lisp, instead of inventing yet another language.
2014-07-14T14:35:56Z H4ns: you're preaching to the choir
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2014-07-14T14:36:40Z Zhivago: Why? CL is in a bad position for progress.
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2014-07-14T14:37:20Z dim: hitecnologys: too bad. dealing with binary formats is not my favorite occupation, but I guess I'll have to take care of that
2014-07-14T14:38:33Z Zhivago: And in any case, experimental languages are the best place to do experimental things.
2014-07-14T14:38:55Z drmeister: 'mornin all.
2014-07-14T14:39:00Z drmeister: faheem - what's up?
2014-07-14T14:39:53Z dim: can I go from #(00 #x05 #x5c 00) to 55.7 with a packed decimal encoded on 5 bytes as per the docs? I'll have an answer soon ;-)
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2014-07-14T14:40:19Z Zhivago: I believe in you.
2014-07-14T14:40:23Z Xach: dim: neat! i never knew the name for that. i had to decode it from a crusty old telecom billing file format with no documentation a few years ago.
2014-07-14T14:40:40Z dim: do you still have the code around? ;-)
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2014-07-14T14:40:57Z Xach: dim: no, sorry. was for a company i left.
2014-07-14T14:40:58Z dim: all the docs I have are http://www-01.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSEPGG_10.5.0/com.ibm.db2.luw.admin.dm.doc/doc/r0004669.html and then I'm asking google and finding things like http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/iseries/v5r2/ic2924/books/c0925083170.htm
2014-07-14T14:41:21Z Xach: dim: it wasn't much code. just a table of values and a bit of control, iirc.
2014-07-14T14:41:22Z dim: note that I'm not yet sure about how many bytes I should consume from the input as the docs do not seem to agree
2014-07-14T14:42:02Z Xach: dim: we got these totally opaque billing files and only started to puzzle through them when doing a hexdump showed values that looked like the prices we expected
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2014-07-14T14:42:55Z dim: P=5 and S=2 IIUC the main docs, and I have to take (P+2)/2 bytes it seems, that's 3 I guess
2014-07-14T14:43:49Z dim: Xach: sounds way more fun that what I'm doing, where I have docs/specs and example files but no access to the real data the code will be used against ;_
2014-07-14T14:44:14Z dim: well data without docs or docs without data, both ain't any fun really, I'd wander
2014-07-14T14:44:52Z dim .oO(replace with another phrase that makes sense)
2014-07-14T14:44:53Z Xach: example files can sometimes be helpful
2014-07-14T14:45:04Z dim: I have a bunch of them here, can't complain
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2014-07-14T14:45:26Z dim: I can't believe I'm doing that for fun on a sunny bank holiday ;-)
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2014-07-14T14:47:12Z dto: hello Xach.
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2014-07-14T14:48:32Z Xach: Hi dto
2014-07-14T14:49:18Z faheem: drmeister: hello
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2014-07-14T14:49:31Z drmeister: Hello
2014-07-14T14:49:37Z faheem: H4ns: no preaching. just commeenting.
2014-07-14T14:50:41Z faheem: Zhivago: why is CL in a bad position for progress?
2014-07-14T14:50:59Z Xach: faheem: "preaching to the choir" means "presenting persuasive information to an audience that already agrees with you", not literally preaching
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2014-07-14T14:51:31Z faheem: H4ns: i'm familar with the idiom, yes.
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2014-07-14T14:51:49Z faheem: H4ns: but who says they agree with me.
2014-07-14T14:51:51Z faheem: ?
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2014-07-14T14:52:14Z faheem: apparently Zhivago doesn't. :-)
2014-07-14T14:52:22Z Xach: Few people here wish fewer resources put into Common Lisp.
2014-07-14T14:52:43Z faheem: Xach: yes, fair enough, i guess.
2014-07-14T14:52:43Z Xach: Zhivago is exceptional.
2014-07-14T14:52:54Z faheem: Xach: ok
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2014-07-14T14:56:27Z faheem: Xach: i forget - are you  Zach Beane?
2014-07-14T14:57:41Z Xach: That's me.
2014-07-14T14:58:23Z faheem: Xach: ok. I remember talking to you before. you were very helpful.
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2014-07-14T14:58:52Z Xach: Glad to hear it.
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2014-07-14T15:01:55Z dim: Xach: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary-coded_decimal#Telephony_Binary_Coded_Decimal_.28TBCD.29 might have been your variant of the format
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2014-07-14T15:04:52Z Zhivago: faheem: The new expression is "recycling your kool aid".
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2014-07-14T15:18:59Z dto: oh. Xach i wanted to mention. another year, another free lispgame :) http://blocky.io/cypress.html is in beta
2014-07-14T15:20:26Z dto: i finally learned how to use CLOS. made it very exciting to code this
2014-07-14T15:20:30Z Xach: Cool
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2014-07-14T15:30:29Z theos: does CL have cool data visualization libs?
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2014-07-14T15:32:21Z Xach: no
2014-07-14T15:32:39Z theos: :(
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2014-07-14T15:33:25Z beach: theos: What kind of data?  What kind of visualization?
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2014-07-14T15:34:57Z theos: beach simple streamgraphs or scatter plots
2014-07-14T15:34:57Z p_l: hmm... regarding visualization, I wonder if someone tried simply slaving a dedicated visualization suite to a Lisp program
2014-07-14T15:35:19Z Zhivago: Does dot count?
2014-07-14T15:35:58Z faheem: Zhivago: well, i don't like either of those expressions. the old or the new.
2014-07-14T15:36:04Z theos: or flow maps perhaps. R has some amazing tools
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2014-07-14T15:36:49Z Xach: R has very good stuff available. There are few like that for CL, and it will remain like that until someone makes more things.
2014-07-14T15:36:51Z p_l: Zhivago: I was thinking more along the lines of IBM Data Explorer
2014-07-14T15:37:11Z p_l: although it's more for 3D visualization of complex data
2014-07-14T15:37:56Z faheem: Xach: well, there is ggplot2. though is that data visualation? plus effectively unmaintained currently
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2014-07-14T15:39:21Z p_l: ehh, OpenDX has "last news" on its webpage from 2007 ;_;
2014-07-14T15:40:35Z p_l: though I guess given how some places still have Adobe FrameMaker on Solaris in active use...
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2014-07-14T15:43:20Z p_l: http://www.opendx.org/inaction/physics/images/original/hull_pix1.jpg <--- example of Data Explorer visualization, note that it's only for visualizing and consumes data from other programs - which can be in anything, including CL
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2014-07-14T15:46:43Z hitecnologys: Let's say my library requires doing something with non-lisp files that are stored in project's location in dir called, say, resources. How do I make sure they're always reachable? Is there an easy and reliable way of getting path to system directory if it's not in *central-path* or path to directory of file that is currently being loaded?
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2014-07-14T15:48:09Z Xach: hitecnologys: There are a number of options. http://xach.livejournal.com/294639.html is what i sometimes do, and stassats has a good comment too.
2014-07-14T15:48:20Z hitecnologys: theos: what kind of visualiation tools do you need? If you're satisfied with the output I have in my articles, I can give you code that I used for generating it.
2014-07-14T15:48:40Z Xach: hitecnologys: it makes it a little harder when you are building an application that doesn't load the libraries each time but is running from a saved image or core.
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2014-07-14T15:49:19Z hitecnologys: Xach: I see. Thanks for help, I'll check that out.
2014-07-14T15:51:08Z p_l: hitecnologys: I'd probably make a variable pointing to the path, normally initialized during ASDF load, but in an image taking either a path to image or from config file
2014-07-14T15:51:15Z drmeister: Fare: Hello - it turns out I already have a way of building images - just not a way to take the current running image and bundle it up as a restartable image.
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2014-07-14T15:51:38Z Fare: drmeister, how do you build images?
2014-07-14T15:51:45Z Fare: so, create-image vs dump-image ?
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2014-07-14T15:52:51Z hitecnologys: p_l: that's approximately what I'm going to do.
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2014-07-14T15:53:07Z Fare: hitecnologys, you can have an image-restore-hook initialize a parameter using getenv
2014-07-14T15:53:14Z theos: hitecnologys thanks. i am looking for native CL code
2014-07-14T15:53:28Z drmeister: I think I see now that there is a distinction between "create-image" and "dump-image".   Does "dump-image" mean "take the current image and dump it for restart later at a specific top-level form"  and "create-image" mean "take a bunch of source files, compile-file them, link them together and create an image that can be run later"?
2014-07-14T15:53:58Z drmeister: I have the latter and not the former.
2014-07-14T15:54:00Z theos: i mean everything running everything written in CL instead of cl code running non-CL code
2014-07-14T15:54:09Z Fare: those load-pathname things only work if you use the code at the same place it was compiled.
2014-07-14T15:54:21Z Fare: which may or may not apply to your deployment model
2014-07-14T15:54:34Z Fare: drmeister, yes
2014-07-14T15:54:46Z hitecnologys: theos: I use vecto and native CL. Wait a sec, I'll put sources somwhere. However, don't expect too much from unfinished lib.
2014-07-14T15:55:04Z Fare: drmeister, perfect. ECL and after it MKCL and now Clasp have the create-image paradigm, and ASDF now knows how to deal with it
2014-07-14T15:55:10Z drmeister: Well then.   I have create-image,    it would take more work to get a dump-image.
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2014-07-14T15:55:42Z theos: hitecnologys ok thanks. just basic visualizations will be good
2014-07-14T15:56:00Z Fare: it makes sense to aim for create-image first. That said, if you also have dump-image, more power to you
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2014-07-14T15:56:29Z drmeister: That makes perfect sense.  ECL should have all the same challenges that I have in writing a dump-image function.
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2014-07-14T15:57:36Z drmeister: dump-image seems pretty messy - the product could contain all kinds of cruft.
2014-07-14T15:57:56Z Zhivago: It is.
2014-07-14T15:58:33Z Xach: drmeister: The usual model is to start from scratch, load only what you want, and dump immediately.
2014-07-14T15:58:42Z drmeister: On the other hand - create-image fits very nicely with the compile/link paradigm of C/C++.
2014-07-14T15:59:09Z hitecnologys: theos: there you go: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/Statistics. It won't simply work out of the box as it uses relative patchs incorrectly. I wrote this mostly for myself so won't be surprised by not-very-obvious parts of code.
2014-07-14T15:59:11Z drmeister: Bleh - It's like sitting in your cake and eating it too.
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2014-07-14T16:00:02Z drmeister: But I'm not above getting a little messy now and then.
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2014-07-14T16:04:49Z theos: hitecnologys the code looks nice :) do you have screenshots of output?
2014-07-14T16:05:06Z Fare: drmeister, indeed
2014-07-14T16:05:54Z Fare: but hey, if even GCL can do it, I'm sure so can Clasp
2014-07-14T16:05:55Z hitecnologys: theos: I've just put some in samples. Also, you can take a look at http://hitecnologys.org/1 and http://hitecnologys.org/2 for more samples of linear scale (images in samples use log-10 one, IIRC).
2014-07-14T16:06:22Z Fare: the main beef I have with ECL's compile/link paradigm is that it still does too much at link time.
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2014-07-14T16:06:53Z Fare: i.e. at least re-building all the package structures.
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2014-07-14T16:08:49Z hitecnologys: theos: pull again, I've fixed the thing in the code that wouldn't even allow it to load successfully.
2014-07-14T16:08:56Z drmeister: Fare: What does it do at link time that you don't like?
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2014-07-14T16:10:08Z drmeister: I don't understand what "re-building all the package structures" means.
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2014-07-14T16:11:16Z theos: hitecnologys that is impressive!
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2014-07-14T16:12:36Z drmeister: I think ECL is constrained by its design - it generates C code and that is compiled and linked by external programs.  I'm guessing ECL doesn't have a lot of control after the C-code is generated other than compiler/linker command line options.
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2014-07-14T16:14:36Z Fare: drmeister, the initialization methods have to build the lisp packages and symbols and associate the compiled objects to them
2014-07-14T16:15:39Z Fare: drmeister, because you can't assume that the symbols and/or packages haven't been created by previous files, etc.
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2014-07-14T16:16:59Z Fare: if you could statically know which names are defined, map the lisp names to C names, and have them defined once and only once, you could do more things at link time, and fewer at initialization time
2014-07-14T16:17:09Z Fare: that's basically what dump-image does
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2014-07-14T16:18:43Z Fare: maybe an "interesting" implementation of dump-image would work exactly like that: extract for each heap object a C object to link.
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2014-07-14T16:28:49Z drmeister: Fare: I think I understand "the initialization methods have to build the lisp packages and symbols and associate the compiled objects to them"
2014-07-14T16:29:43Z drmeister: That's what my initialization methods do.
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2014-07-14T16:32:18Z drmeister: I'm not sure what you are proposing as an alternative.   It's straightforward to have create-image create an initialization method that simply plays out what would happen if you LOADed the source files.
2014-07-14T16:32:43Z drmeister: Is it to take the final bindings that result from this and map them to compiled objects in one go?
2014-07-14T16:34:23Z drmeister: Forget my preceding comment - I don't want to put words into your mouth and then we waste time arguing over my misunderstandings.
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2014-07-14T16:37:48Z drmeister: I see three functions that I could write:  create-image,   dump-image and   create-dump-image.    create-image we established - it's compile-file/link a list of source files.   dump-image would need OS/kernel support to write the memory of the running process to a file for restarting later (cryopid is a library that does this on linux).
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2014-07-14T16:39:03Z p_l: drmeister: if you don't need to restore register/stack state, there's not much that requires OS support, afaik
2014-07-14T16:40:26Z drmeister: p_l: I don't need to restore register/stack state - I would unwind the stack.  Fare pointed me to "elk", a scheme implementation that does this.   I haven't read into it yet.    Do you have any suggestions on how to achieve it?
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2014-07-14T16:41:47Z p_l: drmeister: not on stack unwinding, but for KCL-derived Lisp I think you'll want (from OS) mostly information about memory mappings
2014-07-14T16:41:52Z Fare: drmeister, yes, map to compiled objects in one go — a "dump-image" facility could do that
2014-07-14T16:42:53Z p_l: in case of linux, it would be information from /proc/self/maps (or possibly smaps)
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2014-07-14T16:43:44Z Fare: what's smaps? /proc/self/maps on steroids?
2014-07-14T16:43:58Z p_l: Fare: pretty much that - maps with detailed information
2014-07-14T16:44:10Z Fare: and an ugly format
2014-07-14T16:44:27Z p_l: although most detailed was pagemap, but it was mostly usable for analyzing memory usage
2014-07-14T16:44:40Z p_l: (as you need to use in concert with maps)
2014-07-14T16:45:18Z Fare: /proc is such an ugly slow interface to things — someone should standardize on a nice binary format for serializing data, such as capnproto
2014-07-14T16:45:54Z p_l: sure, let's have N+1 binary serialization format ;)
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2014-07-14T16:46:44Z p_l: (on a more serious note, what you'd really want for such interface is VMS-style SDL files)
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2014-07-14T16:47:30Z p_l: and probably either NT-like architecture or L4/SpringOS one
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2014-07-14T16:48:25Z drmeister: Fare: I think the best hope is writing out memory via the OS.    I despair when I think of trying to track down and properly serialize all of the C++ objects.
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2014-07-14T16:49:10Z drmeister: Especially when many of them will be created by external libraries like LLVM which I have no control over.
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2014-07-14T16:49:52Z p_l: drmeister: if you have DWARF debugging data, you might be able to create relocation code, otherwise you'd have to ensure same base address
2014-07-14T16:50:03Z drmeister: I never want to say never - though.
2014-07-14T16:51:00Z Fare: yes, dumping the memory is good and many Lisp implementations do it. Emacs, ELK, GCL, CMUCL, SBCL, etc.
2014-07-14T16:51:10Z p_l: the other option pretty much makes your binary a static one
2014-07-14T16:51:20Z Fare: the somewhat tricky part is relinking to the exact same dynamic libraries at runtime
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2014-07-14T16:51:34Z Fare: and/or also saving the contents of said libraries
2014-07-14T16:52:08Z p_l: Fare: the latter is... quite possibly more problem than its worth
2014-07-14T16:52:45Z Fare: you have to either load everything at the exact same address, or somehow relink to the C library, which might not be possible if some C code relies on saving pointers to library-provided code and data.
2014-07-14T16:53:12Z drmeister: create-image is looking pretty good about now.
2014-07-14T16:53:32Z Fare: the problem with external libraries: what if the library is updated and the old version removed?
2014-07-14T16:54:05Z Fare: at least with NixOS you can register your code as depending on the exact correct variants of the libraries.
2014-07-14T16:54:16Z Fare: but on Debian, you're screwed.
2014-07-14T16:54:22Z drmeister: Fare: Ah - that would be the users problem.  :-)
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2014-07-14T16:55:12Z Fare: also, I don't know how to tell the kernel and/or dynamic loader that you really really don't want address randomization.
2014-07-14T16:55:30Z drmeister: I could put up a dialog box like MS Windows "You are about to do something that is potentially really, really stupid - Click OK to continue."
2014-07-14T16:56:47Z Bicyclidine: nooooo, sbcl did that for years and annoyed everybody :p
2014-07-14T16:58:58Z p_l: Fare: you can, but the kernel is allowed to ignore it
2014-07-14T16:59:14Z p_l: or rather, to refuse
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2014-07-14T17:15:55Z hitecnologys: Do I really have to put license notice in every file? Can't I just put COPYING file in the root of the project and be fine?
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2014-07-14T17:24:39Z bobbysmith007: hitecnologys: I usually use a LICENSE in the project root, but Im not super concerned about lawyers getting involved in my tiny bsd licensed common lisp libraries
2014-07-14T17:25:03Z bobbysmith007: I also really loathe the clutter of the license block on every file approach, so I am pretty biased
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2014-07-14T17:30:36Z hitecnologys: bobbysmith007: GNU docs say that one should include notice in every file but I've seen people who doesn't do it. I was just wondering how popular practice is this.
2014-07-14T17:32:02Z Bicyclidine: i'm pretty used to seeing license notices in all files in code. maybe moreso in slightly older code.
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2014-07-14T17:32:52Z hitecnologys: I see.
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2014-07-14T17:33:09Z bobbysmith007: this is one of many places I disagree with GNU philosophy, but they have had WAY more legal experience in this department then I ever will.  part of why I use BSD license, is because I really dont care to worry about this, more than protecting my own rights to the code and giving it to everybody else who wants it
2014-07-14T17:34:03Z Bicyclidine: before places like github being as common as they are now it was pretty common to throw files around between projects, so you'd include a changelog and license and shit
2014-07-14T17:34:17Z bobbysmith007: Bicyclidine: makes sense in that context
2014-07-14T17:34:34Z bobbysmith007: thank god for nigh universal source control access
2014-07-14T17:34:50Z hitecnologys: Oh, here it goes: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#LicenseCopyOnly.
2014-07-14T17:34:51Z Bicyclidine looks at code he is working on, sighs sadly
2014-07-14T17:35:20Z hitecnologys: If one specifies explicitly that all the code in this repository is covered by license, then you're good.
2014-07-14T17:35:48Z Bicyclidine: There are also projects with varying licenses in different files. SBCL for instance, where some of it is mostly novel and other parts are technically held by XEROX PARC
2014-07-14T17:36:14Z hitecnologys: XEROX?
2014-07-14T17:36:26Z hitecnologys: Wow, I didn't know that.
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2014-07-14T17:36:35Z Bicyclidine: yeah. M-. loop
2014-07-14T17:36:38Z hitecnologys: XOROX seem to be quite cool guys.
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2014-07-14T17:37:06Z Bicyclidine: other parts are CMU and stuff... old code gets frankensteiny
2014-07-14T17:39:29Z Bicyclidine: oops, it was MIT https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/code/loop.lisp#L17-21
2014-07-14T17:40:07Z Bicyclidine: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/dacd3fc70cf2fc78677f9a8bbbb5c3b51883f1b7/src/pcl/precom1.lisp#L4-8 ah, but the CLOS is xerox. fantastic.
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2014-07-14T17:48:32Z InvalidCo: Bicyclidine: interesting stuff
2014-07-14T17:49:16Z InvalidCo: I wanted to terminate a loop one day with some pretty weird implications
2014-07-14T17:50:07Z InvalidCo: if I recall correctly, my problem was that the explicit exits I was able to come up with wouldn't return the collected stuff
2014-07-14T17:50:45Z InvalidCo: so I macroexpanded the loop code and found the sb!loop::end-loop or whatever and used that
2014-07-14T17:50:59Z InvalidCo: but it seems the clean way would have been (loop-finish)?
2014-07-14T17:51:28Z Bicyclidine: yes. on sbcl that just expands to (go sb-loop::end-loop) anyway, i think.
2014-07-14T17:51:33Z InvalidCo: mm
2014-07-14T17:51:44Z InvalidCo: is that supported on all platforms?
2014-07-14T17:51:50Z Bicyclidine: loop-finish is standard, yes.
2014-07-14T17:51:52Z Bicyclidine: clhs loop-finish
2014-07-14T17:51:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop_f.htm
2014-07-14T17:52:06Z InvalidCo: ah, yes
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2014-07-14T18:01:50Z InvalidCo: Bicyclidine: do you know what the #!-macro does?
2014-07-14T18:02:09Z InvalidCo: I see both #+ and #!+ with some architecture-related selections
2014-07-14T18:03:27Z InvalidCo: also #!+sb-doc
2014-07-14T18:03:31Z InvalidCo: before docstrings
2014-07-14T18:03:39Z Bicyclidine: It's an sbcl thing for its build process. Basically like #+ for the cross compiler or something.
2014-07-14T18:03:50Z Bicyclidine: Same reason you see package names like sb!loop.
2014-07-14T18:03:53Z InvalidCo: ah, makes sense
2014-07-14T18:04:05Z InvalidCo: so it's sort of like #. + #+
2014-07-14T18:04:17Z InvalidCo: but with different compile/run/whatever stages
2014-07-14T18:04:20Z Bicyclidine: I don't think it does any evaluation.
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2014-07-14T18:04:33Z Bicyclidine: It's just #+ for a different stage.
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2014-07-14T18:08:41Z Fare: drmeister: well, they are using Windows, so they already did something really, really stupid.
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2014-07-14T18:11:54Z Shinmera: Xach: I really do hope South will be useful for whenever you'll have to take on OAuth
2014-07-14T18:14:02Z Xach: Shinmera: me too, thanks!
2014-07-14T18:14:12Z Xach: i may get a chance to see this week
2014-07-14T18:14:38Z Shinmera: Alright, feedback is always appreciated if it does come to that!
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2014-07-14T18:18:41Z newtolisp: I have a global (defvar *db* nil) then (defun add-record (cd) (push cd *db*)) but if I reload the file why doesn't my slime REPL reset the var to nil?
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2014-07-14T18:19:11Z Shinmera: because defvar only sets it if it is not defined yet
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2014-07-14T18:19:34Z Shinmera: I thought PCL mentioned that
2014-07-14T18:20:13Z newtolisp: So a file reload/recompile isn't a complete restart as far as slime REPL is concerned?
2014-07-14T18:20:45Z Shinmera: a load simply compiles/evaluates the forms in the file in order.
2014-07-14T18:20:49Z Shinmera: you're still in the same lisp session
2014-07-14T18:20:52Z Bicyclidine: the repl has a persistent instance.
2014-07-14T18:21:06Z Bicyclidine: switch to defparameter if you want it to be set every time it's evaluated.
2014-07-14T18:21:27Z newtolisp: Bicyclidine: OK, got it.
2014-07-14T18:21:33Z Shinmera: if you want to completely restart your lisp for some reason, type at the repl: ,restart
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2014-07-14T18:33:39Z hitecnologys: Are there any maintained working emulators of Symbolics Lisp Machines left?
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2014-07-14T18:37:30Z p_l: hitecnologys: maintained? no, but you can get fasr with snap4
2014-07-14T18:39:11Z p_l: (recompile of VLM2 for linux)
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2014-07-14T18:42:22Z hitecnologys: p_l: I see. I'm just reading about such things (Genera, other Lisp machines) and, well, this stuff is great. I used to think Genera and CLIM were some kind of not so well designed things but I was completely wrong. It's too bad they're dead but I with we had something similar now.
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2014-07-14T18:48:38Z H4ns: today i learned that the virtual lisp machine is actually maintained, but you need a support contract with dave schmidt to get updates.
2014-07-14T18:49:36Z billstclair: hitecnologys: Genera still runs via a lisp machine hardware emulator running on the DEC Alpha. That emulator is being ported to X86, but will still be available to only current Symbolics license holders.
2014-07-14T18:50:21Z H4ns: billstclair: do you know that licensees of opengenera on alpha are eligible for the update?
2014-07-14T18:50:29Z H4ns: s/that/whether/
2014-07-14T18:50:30Z billstclair: no
2014-07-14T18:50:39Z H4ns: no for "that" or "whether"?
2014-07-14T18:50:46Z billstclair: I don't know
2014-07-14T18:50:59Z H4ns: ah, thanks.
2014-07-14T18:51:37Z billstclair: It would make sense, but that doesn't count for a lot...
2014-07-14T18:53:12Z H4ns: right.  "make sense" is not something that one would connect to genera these days :)
2014-07-14T18:53:52Z billstclair: I'd think that by now Genera would be MIT licensed. But no.
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2014-07-14T18:57:31Z hitecnologys: billstclair: it's still an emulator, though. But I also don't want Genera to run natively on x86-64 (which is hardly possible) because it hurts my feelings.
2014-07-14T18:58:45Z billstclair: Well, it's certainly possible, and it would likely be faster than compiling to the lisp machine instruction set and emulating its microcode, but it would be a lot of work. Even porting the microcode emulator is a lot of work
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2014-07-14T19:01:25Z hitecnologys: I'd better wait for new architecture without tons of legacy (which x86(-64) definitely has) and then start porting.
2014-07-14T19:01:27Z H4ns: hitecnologys: just fyi:  you don't have a clue.  i'd recommend not making claims about genera.
2014-07-14T19:02:18Z billstclair: Heh, that new architecture was the DEC Alpha. Most beautiful instruction set I've seen in 40 years of computing. Didn't make it in the market.
2014-07-14T19:02:21Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I know, Genera is weird, but the idea is quite nice.
2014-07-14T19:02:29Z billstclair: Maybe the ARM is today's new architecture
2014-07-14T19:02:49Z hitecnologys: ARM is certainly better than x86. Anything is better than x86.
2014-07-14T19:03:09Z billstclair: X86 is ugly, but it works. And is FAST.
2014-07-14T19:03:48Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I'm surprised it's still not open source either. I don't think anybody make much profit of it nowadays.
2014-07-14T19:04:23Z hitecnologys: billstclair: it may be a good excuse for users but it's pain for those who work with it.
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2014-07-14T19:08:12Z billstclair: hitecnologys: true, but nobody but compiler writers works with it these days
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2014-07-14T19:11:46Z hitecnologys: billstclair: doesn't make it any better. Supporting legacy by making development of new harder isn't very good policy.
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2014-07-14T19:12:54Z billstclair: We're slowly seeing ARM take over the internet server business. Give it time. It should scale a lot better than x86, but it takes time to catch up to Intel's manufacturing muscle.
2014-07-14T19:13:25Z billstclair: What I'd like to see is self-timed architectures. Studied that in college in 1975, but still don't see chips available to enable it
2014-07-14T19:13:42Z billstclair: So we distribute 4GHz clocks. Absurd.
2014-07-14T19:14:00Z p_l: billstclair: ARM Ltd first needs to finally stop dragging their feet on making reusable ARM boxen instead of special snowflake unique ones
2014-07-14T19:14:15Z Fare: There used to be a self-timed ARM implementation. Amulet or Armulet.
2014-07-14T19:14:57Z hitecnologys: I'd rather see architectures featuring lots of cores which work on lower frequncies than now and provide better ways for paralleling tasks.
2014-07-14T19:14:58Z Fare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMULET_microprocessor
2014-07-14T19:15:48Z H4ns: timing verification in asynchronous systems is hard.  much harder than what ee folks regularly do.
2014-07-14T19:16:08Z hitecnologys: True.
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2014-07-14T19:16:43Z H4ns: and even though you don't do full verifications on microprocessors, you do so for individual components.  asynchronous hardware will require a level-up of the whole microprocessor development industry to gain any traction.
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2014-07-14T19:17:47Z billstclair: I never built a real system with self-timed logic, but the toolkit we worked with on paper in 1975 made it look not too hard. Don't know how well it would scale though
2014-07-14T19:17:47Z hitecnologys: However, we're getting closer to this point each day.
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2014-07-14T19:18:29Z hitecnologys: billstclair: it would not be so easy on larger frequencies.
2014-07-14T19:18:39Z H4ns: billstclair: the ee industry is not very dynamic, and as the risks are plenty, there is little room for revolutionary improvements.
2014-07-14T19:19:17Z billstclair: Well, frequencies isn't even the right word. It's all delays and splits and joins with the whole system being controlled by the slowest path. Speed up that path, and the whole thing gets faster
2014-07-14T19:19:28Z p_l: billstclair: deliverable async chips tend to be small and limited, and that's despite the manufacturing process being the same for synchronous chips
2014-07-14T19:19:30Z Fare: International Lisp Conference 2014 in Montreal, Aug 15-17 — today is last day for early bird pricing (even cheaper if you get ALU membership). I bought my ticket. Will some of you join me there?
2014-07-14T19:19:32Z mathiasx: hitecnologys: it's probably not what you're after, but I've got an Adapteva Parallella coming that I'll probably try to code with FFI into their C SDK.
2014-07-14T19:19:42Z mathiasx: http://www.parallella.org/
2014-07-14T19:20:17Z hitecnologys: mathiasx: it's not exactly what I want but looks nice, thanks for information.
2014-07-14T19:20:20Z mathiasx: The promise is a grid of many small processors in a network. For now, it is only 16 cores, which isn't much.
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2014-07-14T19:21:24Z hitecnologys: mathiasx: GPUs are close to what I want, but they're not general purpose.
2014-07-14T19:21:59Z p_l: hitecnologys: for a reason ;)
2014-07-14T19:23:42Z hitecnologys: p_l: we don't have designes for caches, conveyors, etc that can handle lots of cores efficiently.
2014-07-14T19:24:15Z hitecnologys: p_l: well, we do already have but I haven't heard of them.
2014-07-14T19:24:46Z p_l: hitecnologys: distributed systems aren't easy, and that's what you get in a multicore system
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2014-07-14T19:25:07Z p_l: if you do explicit shared-nothing setup, it's a bit easier, but requires apropriate programming
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2014-07-14T19:26:06Z Fare: hitecnologys, seen the Mill processor?
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2014-07-14T19:26:17Z hitecnologys: p_l: indeed. None of operating systems we have now would run efficiently in systems with huge number of cores.
2014-07-14T19:26:31Z hitecnologys: Fare: yes. Sounds awesome.
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2014-07-14T19:26:57Z Fare: he also uses C++ in a very Lispy way.
2014-07-14T19:27:17Z mathiasx: The GreenArray Forth chips look neat, fwiw.
2014-07-14T19:27:19Z Fare: lots of metaprogramming, code-as-data and data-as-code
2014-07-14T19:28:41Z hitecnologys: mathiasx: wow, I didn't think somebody has heard of that. I was thinking once about buying one out of curiosity but they sell it only by 10 things per purchase, I don't have that much money.
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2014-07-14T19:29:20Z p_l: hitecnologys: it's not even a case of operating system, the programmers wouldn't write good stuff, nor is it actually applicatble fotto everything
2014-07-14T19:29:30Z mathiasx: Yeah, there's a dude I was talking to about those at ClojureWest who wants to build a higher level language on top that can do things like pmap across the chips...
2014-07-14T19:29:31Z p_l: not every task is embarassingly parallelizable
2014-07-14T19:29:51Z mathiasx: But the GreenArray chips have gone down in price over time; soon a devboard will be $250-ish? Was his guess.
2014-07-14T19:30:06Z jasom: the GA chips are more like high-level FPGAs rather than multicore cpus
2014-07-14T19:30:12Z Zhivago: That's why I prefer my distribution at the process level.
2014-07-14T19:30:28Z Zhivago: You're not locked into local cores, but can still take advantage of them.
2014-07-14T19:30:29Z hitecnologys: p_l: programmers can be fixed as well as software, it just takes time. If somebody develops a goot set of instruments to work with distributed systems, it would really speed the process up.
2014-07-14T19:30:53Z p_l: hitecnologys: won't change the fact that some tasks just do not fit such architecture
2014-07-14T19:31:06Z mathiasx: hitecnologys: the GreenArray dev boards are sold individually for $450; just checked.
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2014-07-14T19:31:34Z hitecnologys: p_l: one can always use just one core in case it doesn't fit. With multiple cores you have choice.
2014-07-14T19:31:46Z p_l: hitecnologys: also, no amount of tools will fix up local signal propagation speed
2014-07-14T19:32:19Z hitecnologys: mathiasx: 450 is still too much for me. I'd rather buy 10 chips for $100 and make board myself but I don't even have $100.
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2014-07-14T19:33:04Z hitecnologys: p_l: anyway, it all can be fixed.
2014-07-14T19:33:45Z hitecnologys: jasom: yes, they also use... not wery usual development tools. ColorForth isn't something I'm used to working with.
2014-07-14T19:34:25Z p_l: hitecnologys: if you solve issues with signal propagation delays, there's probably a nobel prize waiting for you. Consecutively through few years.
2014-07-14T19:34:25Z Zhivago: You can collect cans for recycling to get $100.
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2014-07-14T19:35:53Z hitecnologys: p_l: I didn't say fixed here and now. Graphene and super conductors that work at room temperatures or close to that can greatly improve situation.
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2014-07-14T19:36:34Z p_l: hitecnologys: superconductors let you raise the clock, not change speed of light
2014-07-14T19:36:35Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: I don't think there's enough cans in the city.
2014-07-14T19:37:02Z p_l: (there are >50GHz DSPs made from superconductors, and clients who buy them)
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2014-07-14T19:37:08Z H4ns: /
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2014-07-14T19:39:31Z hitecnologys: p_l: well, moving faster than the light may theoretically be possible (but that's close to metaphysics, off-topic). We can also just slow other parts of machine down to achive synchronization.
2014-07-14T19:40:17Z p_l: hitecnologys: at some point the costs of doing so defeat the benefit of scaling
2014-07-14T19:40:53Z p_l: even with perfectly synchronized clocks you get issues with causality in distributed systems
2014-07-14T19:40:58Z hitecnologys: p_l: I hope one day humanity will stop worrying about costs.
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2014-07-14T19:41:22Z p_l: hitecnologys: cost in this case means "resulting system is worse than the smaller one"
2014-07-14T19:42:02Z p_l: not necessarily monetary
2014-07-14T19:43:18Z hitecnologys: p_l: smaller systems are not without problems too at the moment. Currently, multicore systems looks more attractive.
2014-07-14T19:45:17Z hitecnologys: p_l: I'm not talking about crazy about of parallelism (like thousands of thousands of tasks running simultaneously) but rather of something relatively small to beging with (like a few dosens or hundreds of cores).
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2014-07-14T19:46:44Z Zhivago: hitech: So, what concrete application do you have in mind?
2014-07-14T19:46:46Z p_l: hitecnologys: depending on use case, it's either horrible in practice or means you just bough latest IBM POWER8 gear and are feeding lots of completely independent cpus
2014-07-14T19:46:59Z p_l: s/cpus/processes/
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2014-07-14T19:48:10Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: simulations and scientific calculations mostly.
2014-07-14T19:48:20Z loz2: hi, is there form in loop which is like "with var = (form)", but is recalculated on every loop turn?
2014-07-14T19:48:45Z didi`: loz2: for x = e0 then e1
2014-07-14T19:48:50Z hitecnologys: loz2: (loop for var = (form))
2014-07-14T19:49:31Z loz2: didi`: hitecnologys thanks :)
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2014-07-14T19:49:58Z hitecnologys: p_l: maybe, I haven't had a chance to work much with big distributed systems.
2014-07-14T19:50:18Z Zhivago: So, not very concrete. :)
2014-07-14T19:50:32Z Zhivago: I suggest picking a specific application to think about in the context of distributed systems.
2014-07-14T19:50:42Z Zhivago: Otherwise it is easy to go wandering off with the fairies.
2014-07-14T19:50:53Z loz2: maybe there even something to loop across list without end, continue from  begin when end of list found?
2014-07-14T19:51:48Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: nah, I'm just being childish here. Can't I dream of something cool from time to time?
2014-07-14T19:52:21Z hitecnologys: loz2: I don't think so.
2014-07-14T19:52:26Z p_l: hitecnologys: scientific simulations tend to deal quite well with existing systems... but take notice that supercomputers are usually built for specific classes of tasks to run on them
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2014-07-14T19:53:39Z loz2: hitecnologys: ok)
2014-07-14T19:53:57Z hitecnologys: p_l: yes, I know. Still, having ability to run lots of tasks simultaneously makes me feel satisfied with life.
2014-07-14T19:54:12Z |3b|: (loop for x = list then (or (cdr x) list) for y = (car x) ...)?
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2014-07-14T19:54:44Z hitecnologys: loz2: (loop for x in #1=(1 2 3 4 #1#)).
2014-07-14T19:56:48Z Bicyclidine: 4 . #1# you mean.
2014-07-14T19:57:07Z hitecnologys: Yes.
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2014-07-14T19:58:54Z hitecnologys: Oh, new QL.
2014-07-14T19:59:25Z Xach: so new!
2014-07-14T19:59:30Z Quadrescence: so fresh!
2014-07-14T20:00:00Z loz2: hitecnologys: cyclic list? nice, ill try that
2014-07-14T20:00:30Z Quadrescence: (loop :for x := 1 :then (1+ (mod x 4)) :do ...)
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2014-07-14T20:01:43Z loz2: Quadrescence: y, its my current solution
2014-07-14T20:03:22Z hitecnologys: I guess cyclic list should be faster but more memory-hungry while arithmetical operations are slower but more memory-efficient. Am I right?
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2014-07-14T20:04:41Z Quadrescence: a cyclic list will not be "memory hungry"
2014-07-14T20:04:45Z loz2: how cyclic list is memory hungry? its one more pointer in end of list..
2014-07-14T20:05:01Z Quadrescence: it also may or may not be faster. Is it faster to do some fast inline arithmetic or faster to do memory fetching just to get a number?
2014-07-14T20:05:09Z Quadrescence: also what if the memory is not local?
2014-07-14T20:05:13Z hitecnologys: I mean compared to arithmetical solution.
2014-07-14T20:05:42Z Quadrescence: compared to the arithmetic solution it's not "memory hungry". It's 4 cons cells. that's less memory than a few stack frames
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2014-07-14T20:05:54Z hitecnologys: I see.
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2014-07-14T20:26:47Z jasom: and a decent compiler will turn (mod (incf x) 4) into 2 instructions that each execute in a single ALU cycle, which may or may not be faster than a cache hit.
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2014-07-14T20:29:36Z ggole: A few more if it doesn't know x is positive.
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2014-07-14T20:45:22Z loz2: can i split long string into many lines in sources?
2014-07-14T20:45:46Z Xach: loz2: yes.
2014-07-14T20:46:01Z loz2: how?
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2014-07-14T20:46:43Z Xach: When you get near the end of a line, hit "enter"
2014-07-14T20:47:29Z jasom: Xach: I think he wants no newlines in the string?
2014-07-14T20:47:59Z hitecnologys: loz2: #.(concatenate 'string "foo" \n "bar" \n "baz")
2014-07-14T20:48:13Z hitecnologys: loz2: or anything similar.
2014-07-14T20:48:19Z loz2: yep, like you do "start of string" + (newline) + "rest of string" in pythons
2014-07-14T20:50:47Z jasom: loz2: http://paste.lisp.org/+32H3 <-- example of what hitecnologys is saying
2014-07-14T20:51:18Z loz2: jasom: hitecnologys: thanks
2014-07-14T20:51:26Z jasom: but if it's only slightly long, I'd leave it all on one line.  If it's really long then I'd question why it's in there as a literal.
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2014-07-14T21:03:00Z loz2: em, format ~a of list randomly prints line-break in sbcl, is it ok?
2014-07-14T21:03:19Z Xach: If it's not ok, you have ways to take control.
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2014-07-14T21:19:54Z Quadrescence: I've wanted there to be a Comprehensive Guide to Printing in Lisp.
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2014-07-14T21:24:38Z jasom: Quadrescence: write it!
2014-07-14T21:25:10Z Quadrescence: jasom, that's all I hear from you lispers: "Do this, do that!" Time is finite and I'm saturated!
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2014-07-14T21:28:09Z dseagrav: I thought that was just opensores types in general. "Hey, I need advice, I'm making a dog house and I don't know whether to put hay on dirt floor or rugs on wood floor." "OMG you are a retard, why are you making a dog house? You should be making a chicken coop. Get rid of your dog and get chickens." "But I'm not zoned for chickens!" "MOVE!"
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2014-07-14T21:29:45Z dseagrav: Everyone loves to say "You shouldn't be using X, you should be using Y instead" because it absolutely won't solve the user's problem, the user is very unlikely to take the suggestion seriously, and you get to think to yourself "I gave him advice and he didn't take it, so his continued issues are his fault!"
2014-07-14T21:30:18Z jasom: Quadrescence: well if you wrote it, I woudl read it :)
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2014-07-14T21:30:35Z Quadrescence: jasom, I don't think you should because I just pretend I know the standard and I'm almost always wrong. :(
2014-07-14T21:30:42Z Quadrescence: Someone like stassats could do a much better job.
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2014-07-14T21:31:54Z nightfly: dseagrav: Did you lift that from somewhere or come up with it yourself?
2014-07-14T21:33:07Z Quadrescence: hm, the ACM seems to "generously" allow one to post their own paper to their personal website. how "nice" of them
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2014-07-14T21:35:53Z dseagrav: nightfly: I made it up as I went
2014-07-14T21:37:14Z dseagrav: Based on having seen similar "helpful" comments many times before
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2014-07-14T21:38:43Z dseagrav: Usually along the lines of "How do I make apache do X" "Run lighttpd / nginx / etc instead or you are an idiot!"
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2014-07-14T21:42:19Z dseagrav: You can replace the names with those of the distribution default httpd / nameserver / mailserver / etc and whatever trendy alternative httpd / nameserver / mailserver / etc was most popular for the 15 minutes exactly 48 hours ago.
2014-07-14T21:42:50Z dseagrav: "I read about it in a blog post so it must be good"
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2014-07-14T21:44:24Z dseagrav: My personal favorite was watching someone ask how to add a user to Samba only to be told they should uninstall linux and replace it with freebsd because bsd is superior.
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2014-07-14T21:45:04Z dseagrav: This suggestion coming from a kid who claimed to be simultaneously buddhist and atheist.
2014-07-14T21:48:58Z jasom: buddhism is non-theistic and specifically rejects the existence of a creator deity so that is a nuance.
2014-07-14T21:49:29Z Zhivago: Well ...
2014-07-14T21:49:49Z Bicyclidine: seems i picked a good time to go for a walk.
2014-07-14T21:50:15Z dseagrav: and not a ride?
2014-07-14T21:50:34Z drmeister: Is anyone familiar with the documentation/help system in ECL?
2014-07-14T21:50:51Z Bicyclidine: meaning cl:documentation or the help files?
2014-07-14T21:51:47Z drmeister: The ECL source code helpfile.lsp refers to a function called search-help-file.   I haven't found it in the ECL source code but I do find it in this file: https://github.com/gonzojive/ecl-iphone/blob/master/src/lsp/helpfile.lsp
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2014-07-14T21:52:29Z drmeister: Why does the ecl-iphone code have sys:search-help-file when the ecl 13.5.1 does not.
2014-07-14T21:53:16Z pjb:  Because there are help files on iOS, but not on linux?
2014-07-14T21:53:42Z pjb: That's called implementation specific for a reason.
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2014-07-14T21:55:57Z drmeister: I find two mentions of search.help.file in the ecl 13.5.1 source   - it's called within src/lsp/helpfile.lsp:84  and it's mentioned in src/lsp/autoload.slp (autoload "sys:ecl-help" 'dump-help-file 'search-help-file)
2014-07-14T21:56:10Z drmeister: Other than that I can't find it in the C or the lisp source files.
2014-07-14T21:56:15Z Bicyclidine: i don't see how to search commits in sourceforge's thing. weird.
2014-07-14T21:56:39Z drmeister: When I load ASDF into my system it is throwing an error because sys:SEARCH-HELP-FILE is missing
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2014-07-14T21:59:20Z drmeister: I have to run to catch a train - bbl
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2014-07-14T22:09:53Z PuercoPop: Fare, do you know how is the guy to talk to regarding ALU membership and the ILC discount?
2014-07-14T22:09:58Z PuercoPop: *who
2014-07-14T22:10:27Z Fare: go to alu.org
2014-07-14T22:10:34Z Fare: get your membership via paypal
2014-07-14T22:10:43Z Fare: or buy your membership in Montreal
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2014-07-14T22:10:46Z PuercoPop: I did that
2014-07-14T22:11:04Z PuercoPop: and the ILC asked me for a alu member code
2014-07-14T22:11:16Z Fare: nope, it's an optional ACM membership code, not ALU
2014-07-14T22:11:22Z PuercoPop: which idk
2014-07-14T22:11:27Z Fare: if you get the discount via ACM
2014-07-14T22:11:42Z Fare: (equalp "ACM" "ALU") ;==> NIL
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2014-07-14T22:11:54Z PuercoPop: ahh, ok. good to know
2014-07-14T22:12:22Z PuercoPop: must have misread then.
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2014-07-14T22:23:17Z drmeister: Is this a valid CL character?   It's in the ecl-iphone source    #\^_
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2014-07-14T22:25:18Z drmeister: Nope.
2014-07-14T22:25:36Z jasom: drmeister: I think the spec allows for arbitrary character names
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2014-07-14T22:26:47Z drmeister: Is the ecl for iphones under active development?
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2014-07-14T22:28:13Z drmeister: This is in the ecl-iphone source code dealing with help files.   I naively tried to incorporate it into my source code - it's got that character in it:  https://gist.github.com/drmeister/0d4fa9e3b8b7277e9131
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2014-07-14T22:32:54Z drmeister: Hang on, I see why search-help-file was being invoked, my hash-table-p was returning false for a hash-table-eql and so it was going down a code path that I guess ECL never goes down.
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2014-07-14T22:36:30Z alexherbo2: Hi
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2014-07-14T22:54:16Z drmeister: Nope - it's not even that - I don't know how ECL gets past this problem in ASDF.   asdf.lisp is invoking (DOCUMENTATION 'operate 'function) where the 'operate symbol is uiop/operate:operate and I don't see where that documentation is provided in asdf.lisp so my code is calling search-help-file for a help-file that contains the documentation (and throwing an error because search-help-file isn't defined).
2014-07-14T22:54:38Z drmeister: Fare: Ping
2014-07-14T22:55:06Z Fare: pong
2014-07-14T22:55:22Z Fare: asdf/operate:operate, not uiop
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2014-07-14T22:55:38Z Fare: it's the docstring of the operate generic function?
2014-07-14T22:56:06Z drmeister: Yeah - sorry,  ASDF/OPERATE:OPERATE
2014-07-14T22:56:23Z Fare: operate.lisp line 237 or so
2014-07-14T22:56:24Z drmeister: I don't see (defgeneric operate ...)
2014-07-14T22:56:38Z Fare: there's a hack for upgradability purposes
2014-07-14T22:57:14Z drmeister: Oh - I see it now (defgeneric* (operate) ...)
2014-07-14T22:57:21Z Fare: (the method combination for the function changed in asdf 2, so we do something special for backward compatibility)
2014-07-14T22:57:50Z drmeister: Hmm, there is the documentation string.   I guess I'm not handling documentation strings properly.
2014-07-14T22:57:58Z Fare: there is plenty of cruft in ASDF that could be done away with, if not for the sake of backward compatibility and/or upgradability
2014-07-14T22:58:28Z drmeister: No no, it's ok, it's my fault.   I should be handling documentation strings as well as ECL is.
2014-07-14T22:58:57Z Fare: I gave that bitch a documentation string. Bitches love documentation strings.
2014-07-14T22:59:23Z Fare: or you can drop them.
2014-07-14T22:59:35Z Fare: or compress them
2014-07-14T22:59:42Z drmeister: When I started down this road I had a lot of trouble with documentation strings and I think I disabled it or something.   I better go back and look at that.
2014-07-14T23:00:07Z Fare: dropping the docstring is fine. Erroring out isn't.
2014-07-14T23:00:37Z drmeister: The trouble was that ecl (and clasp) bootstrap in two stages. A minimal stage that doesn't include CLOS and a full stage that does.    The documentation system needs CLOS.
2014-07-14T23:00:51Z Fare: it's OK to drop the docstrings in stage 1
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2014-07-14T23:01:13Z Fare: Stage 1 got 99 problems, and a docstring ain't one.
2014-07-14T23:01:31Z drmeister: Yeah.   I better go - there's a storm brewing here and I'm sitting at the train station about to get poured on or struck by lightning.
2014-07-14T23:01:48Z drmeister: BBL
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2014-07-14T23:06:02Z drmeister: Now I'm stuck at the train station until the rain lets up a bit.  At least it's warm.
2014-07-14T23:06:31Z drmeister has his laptop and his wireless and it's a warm, stormy evening.   Life is good.
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2014-07-14T23:08:07Z drmeister: Fare: It's loading asdf.lisp - I'm up to line 9065 of 11368
2014-07-14T23:08:39Z Fare: yay :-)
2014-07-14T23:08:46Z drmeister: This exercise has exposed half a dozen code generation flaws that I've fixed.
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2014-07-14T23:09:06Z Fare: the latestest asdf has only 11360 lines
2014-07-14T23:09:15Z Fare: wait, 11364
2014-07-14T23:09:28Z drmeister: That's four less lines of code to slog through!
2014-07-14T23:10:28Z Fare: 9065, that's common operations in operate.lisp — what's wrong with them?
2014-07-14T23:10:42Z drmeister: I just did a "git pull"   I count 11372 - what are you trying to do?   Kill me?
2014-07-14T23:11:30Z drmeister: 9065: (documentation 'operate 'function) was erroring out.
2014-07-14T23:11:41Z Fare: master branch??? wc build/asdf.lisp ==> 11364  52274 555366
2014-07-14T23:12:10Z drmeister: Is there some way to get the revision number?   git isn't like svn.
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2014-07-14T23:12:19Z Fare: oh, so you're giving me the offset of the line *after* the offending form.
2014-07-14T23:12:30Z Fare: git describe
2014-07-14T23:12:49Z Fare: git describe --tags
2014-07-14T23:13:09Z drmeister: 3.1.2.7-2-g6cfb123
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2014-07-14T23:13:26Z Fare: usually, I use git log and copy/paste the commit name on the top line
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2014-07-14T23:14:27Z drmeister: Wait, I think I subsumed asdf into my repo.
2014-07-14T23:14:53Z drmeister: Yeah, it's in my repo now.
2014-07-14T23:15:04Z drmeister: Never mind.
2014-07-14T23:15:21Z Fare: 3.1.2.9 is the latest — release candidate for 3.1.3
2014-07-14T23:15:22Z drmeister: Do you use nested git repositories?
2014-07-14T23:15:27Z Fare: we do not
2014-07-14T23:15:36Z Fare: you can, if you want
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2014-07-14T23:16:06Z jasom: I would advise against nested git repositories
2014-07-14T23:16:10Z drmeister: I have had some trouble with them.
2014-07-14T23:16:37Z drmeister: I tried git submodule and git subtree - but it all came to tears.
2014-07-14T23:16:48Z jasom: you can use git subtree which lets you merge from another repository into yours; submodule you really need to know how it works to use it.
2014-07-14T23:17:37Z drmeister: jasom: How do you feel about git subtree?    Can I  push and pull in the outer and inner repos?
2014-07-14T23:18:50Z drmeister: How is it different from just nesting one git repository within another and putting the inner one in the outer ones .gitignore file?
2014-07-14T23:18:52Z jasom: it works like this: you add another remote, and associate it with a local branch.  Then you can pull/push to make changes in that branch.  You can then merge that branch to a subdirectory of your actual main branch
2014-07-14T23:19:21Z jasom: drmeister: it's different because merges are tracked in the outer repository
2014-07-14T23:19:36Z jasom: git submodule is much closer to putting the inner one in the outer ones .gitignore
2014-07-14T23:20:17Z drmeister: I see - so using git subtree if I make changes to the inner one, the outer one will track those changes?
2014-07-14T23:20:26Z jasom: right
2014-07-14T23:20:42Z jasom: and you can still merge changes from upstream on the inner one (if you know how)
2014-07-14T23:21:25Z drmeister: jasom: Got it - sounds great - why should I not do this?
2014-07-14T23:21:39Z jasom: drmeister: it's not actually nested git repositories
2014-07-14T23:21:49Z jasom: git submodule and an innerone with a .gitingore would be actually neseted
2014-07-14T23:22:25Z drmeister: Oh - I see.
2014-07-14T23:23:17Z drmeister: Well, it's a good thing that I haven't done it up until now.   I had a horrible idea of including all of my dependent libraries with git subtree that Bike patiently disabused me of.
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2014-07-14T23:24:22Z jasom: If you only want to have upstream, just untar a release snapshot into your project and check it in.
2014-07-14T23:24:32Z drmeister: But I have a use for it now with ASDF and MPS - I think I should git subtree those within my clasp repo.  Unless someone feels strongly about that.
2014-07-14T23:24:33Z jasom: if you want upstream+changes then subtree might be what you want.
2014-07-14T23:25:45Z drmeister: I got to asdf.lisp:11324    I don't provide ext:*module-provider-functions* yet.
2014-07-14T23:25:56Z jasom: Also if you go too crazy, you can end up with a huge pack.  Google solved that by writting a really crummy script to manage many .git repositories at once.  Facebook solved that by giving everyone a machine that could handle the gigantic pack.
2014-07-14T23:26:09Z drmeister: That's spittin' distance to the end.   Then there is just making it work.
2014-07-14T23:27:34Z jasom: https://twitter.com/feross/status/459259593630433280 <-- there's the facebook solution
2014-07-14T23:28:33Z didi: jasom: Doesn't Facebook use hg?
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2014-07-14T23:30:48Z drmeister missed his chance to get out of the storm.  He's going to die at the train station with no dinner and waining power on his laptop.
2014-07-14T23:31:02Z jasom: didi: switched recently
2014-07-14T23:31:11Z jasom: (to mercurial)
2014-07-14T23:31:34Z didi: jasom: oic
2014-07-14T23:32:56Z jasom: and a heavily modified mercurial at that
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2014-07-14T23:35:14Z drmeister: bbl
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2014-07-15T00:50:45Z drmeister: All of ASDF loaded into my Common Lisp system.
2014-07-15T00:51:15Z drmeister: I will have to write a create-image function that will work with clasp.
2014-07-15T00:52:24Z drmeister: Is there anything I can do with ASDF to test it that doesn't require create-image or dump-image?
2014-07-15T00:52:54Z Xach: Load something?
2014-07-15T00:54:59Z inklesspen: what's the purpose of clasp? just curious
2014-07-15T00:56:52Z drmeister: inklesspen: It's a Common Lisp that interoperates with C++ making it easy to expose C++ libraries within it.   It uses LLVM as the back end and generates native code.   I've developed it as a high level language for driving C++ code for the development of molecular nanotechnology.
2014-07-15T00:57:20Z inklesspen: there's C++ libraries for nanotech?
2014-07-15T00:57:21Z inklesspen: holy shit
2014-07-15T00:57:28Z drmeister: It exposes the Clang C++ compiler library within it - so you can write static analyzers for C++ in Common Lisp.
2014-07-15T00:57:52Z p_l: inklesspen: there is a bunch of C++ code for relativistic particle physics
2014-07-15T00:57:55Z drmeister: Yeah - I wrote them.
2014-07-15T00:58:08Z p_l: oh, I still have my @ hat on
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2014-07-15T00:58:38Z inklesspen: drmeister: can you compile me some utility fog yet?
2014-07-15T00:58:51Z p_l: inklesspen: we are far from generic nanofabricators, afaik
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2014-07-15T00:59:09Z p_l: (but we do use nanotechnology every day, how do you think you make cpus? xD)
2014-07-15T00:59:24Z inklesspen: tiny lasers
2014-07-15T00:59:42Z p_l: inklesspen: that etch nanoscale structures
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2014-07-15T01:22:28Z drmeister: So the idea of ASDF is I dump common lisp packages in ~/.local/share/common-lisp/source and   (require XXX) and it's loaded - right?
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2014-07-15T01:31:38Z drmeister: I've been using unix for more than 25 years.  It never occurred to me to put $HOME/local in $HOME/.local.
2014-07-15T01:33:38Z drmeister: This is going to sound like a stupid question - but what are the central repositories for asdf packages?
2014-07-15T01:35:02Z inklesspen: i don't think there are any
2014-07-15T01:35:05Z inklesspen: except quicklisp
2014-07-15T01:35:55Z drmeister: Ok, quicklisp will be the next thing to get working I guess.    I found cl-conspack again - that's the one that prompted me to get asdf working.
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2014-07-15T03:30:31Z amperry: anyone interested in helping a poor soul get started/unstuck with postgresql, sbcl, emacs and slime? I seem to be able to connect to a db in a terminal client, but unable to in a slime REPL.
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2014-07-15T03:38:39Z inklesspen: amperry: first thing i'd check is what protocol you're using.
2014-07-15T03:38:59Z inklesspen: it's quite possible your psql connection is going over unix sockets, while postmodern is attempting to connect over tcp (or vice versa)
2014-07-15T03:39:53Z amperry: I've tried with clsql-postgresql-socket, which I hope means unix sockets
2014-07-15T03:40:12Z amperry: I've tried with a few others as well
2014-07-15T03:42:28Z amperry: and I presume/infer from insufficient evidence that the client on the local host goes over a socket, but lemme check that
2014-07-15T03:43:25Z amperry: nope, definitely socket: '... via socket in "/var/run/postgresql" at port "5432".'
2014-07-15T03:43:35Z inklesspen: ah, a unix domain socket
2014-07-15T03:44:14Z inklesspen: i have just tested it using sbcl and Postgres.app (http://postgresapp.com/) on OS X: https://gist.github.com/inklesspen/4fc334fed9dc0a97ae91
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2014-07-15T03:45:36Z inklesspen: perhaps try using psql -h localhost -p 5432
2014-07-15T03:46:41Z amperry: as the shell client invocation?
2014-07-15T03:47:31Z amperry: I have done that, and am in the client
2014-07-15T03:48:14Z inklesspen: yeah
2014-07-15T03:48:37Z inklesspen: well, can you tell us what happens when you attempt to replicate my gist?
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2014-07-15T03:50:43Z amperry: hrm... I'm glad I'm cured of the habit of blaming the software, because it looks like I'm in, maybe:
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2014-07-15T03:51:03Z amperry: getting error "Top-level database already connected"
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2014-07-15T03:52:02Z amperry: it seems my problem was in not understanding the slime/sbcl debugger
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2014-07-15T03:55:03Z amperry: thank you, inklesspen. I think I just needed someone to talk it through with.
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2014-07-15T03:59:54Z inklesspen: no prob
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2014-07-15T04:34:34Z Guthur: what is the term for and encoder/decoder that will give the same result if you feed the result into itself
2014-07-15T04:34:40Z Guthur: other that working, hehe
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2014-07-15T04:36:21Z pillton: lossless?
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2014-07-15T04:38:04Z pillton: Sorry, I misread "that will give the same result if you feed the result into itself."
2014-07-15T04:38:10Z pillton: So it can be lossy.
2014-07-15T04:39:50Z Bike: I don't understand the question.
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2014-07-15T04:40:40Z Guthur: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-json/#DEFAULT-OPERATION
2014-07-15T04:40:40Z Guthur: see integer is the same in both directions
2014-07-15T04:40:40Z Guthur: but false is not
2014-07-15T04:40:40Z Guthur: it is lost
2014-07-15T04:41:15Z Guthur: there is a term for it, but i can not remember what it was
2014-07-15T04:41:20Z Guthur: not super important though
2014-07-15T04:42:47Z phadthai: Passthrough?  But there might be other equivalent terms
2014-07-15T04:42:49Z inklesspen: isomorphic?
2014-07-15T04:43:31Z phadthai: #'identity heh
2014-07-15T04:43:47Z Guthur: isomorphic thats' it
2014-07-15T04:44:04Z Guthur: inklesspen gets a gold star
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2014-07-15T04:45:26Z inklesspen puts it on the chart
2014-07-15T04:45:36Z pillton: You have to be careful with your description Guthur.
2014-07-15T04:45:55Z inklesspen: is it really impossible to specify false using cl-json?
2014-07-15T04:45:59Z Bike: bijective.
2014-07-15T04:46:00Z inklesspen: that seems poorly thought out
2014-07-15T04:46:14Z Bike: inklesspen: you can specify other encodings. this is just the default.
2014-07-15T04:46:42Z Bike: i doubt much json needs to distinguish null from false anyway...
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2014-07-15T04:47:12Z Guthur: Bike: JSON doesn't but the application might
2014-07-15T04:47:24Z Bike: i mean, i doubt many applications do.
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2014-07-15T04:48:19Z Guthur: if you use strict equality it will be an issue, which generally we do
2014-07-15T04:48:42Z inklesspen: json is also used with other languages that have separate null and false values
2014-07-15T04:48:51Z inklesspen: like python or java
2014-07-15T04:49:01Z Guthur: Javascript does as well
2014-07-15T04:49:15Z Guthur: false === null > false
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2014-07-15T04:49:39Z inklesspen: sure, but in js, null is "falsey"
2014-07-15T04:49:49Z Guthur: actually you don't even need to use strict equality
2014-07-15T04:49:52Z inklesspen: but yeah
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2014-07-15T04:50:00Z inklesspen: i'm a bit tired and didn't fully think that out
2014-07-15T04:50:01Z inklesspen: anyway
2014-07-15T04:50:15Z Guthur: ah, i was just adding it as an aside
2014-07-15T04:50:24Z Bike: i'm just saying the applications i know that use json wouldn't need both things distinctly.
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2014-07-15T04:56:51Z kristof: Ph no!
2014-07-15T04:56:55Z kristof: *Oh no
2014-07-15T04:57:03Z kristof: There seems to be no BSON library for Common Lisp.
2014-07-15T04:57:07Z zacts: yo #lisp
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2014-07-15T04:57:30Z kristof: I wonder how much of cl-json or jsown I can tear out for such a purpose.
2014-07-15T04:57:51Z Bike: cl-json is pretty customizeable.
2014-07-15T04:59:12Z kristof: I yearn for a world where programs communicate data through a structured, binary format.
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2014-07-15T04:59:18Z kristof: BSON is pretty close to what I want.
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2014-07-15T05:01:24Z inklesspen: cl-protobuf?
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2014-07-15T05:03:54Z kristof: inklesspen: Not language independent!
2014-07-15T05:04:11Z inklesspen: protocol buffers aren't language independent?
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2014-07-15T05:04:54Z inklesspen: that was the whole point of protocol buffers
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2014-07-15T05:05:01Z inklesspen: well, one of the whole points
2014-07-15T05:05:16Z kristof: I thought they weren't, turns out I misread the docs
2014-07-15T05:05:26Z kristof: I've never heard of these before
2014-07-15T05:06:11Z brucem: cap'n proto is nice too.
2014-07-15T05:06:15Z inklesspen: the basic idea is you define your message structure and then "compile" it, which generates python code or java code or whatever language code which implements a serializer and deserializer for it.
2014-07-15T05:06:26Z inklesspen: and no matter which language, they all serialize to the same binary format.
2014-07-15T05:06:56Z inklesspen: brucem: it's a bit too C-centric for my tastes
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2014-07-15T05:07:24Z brucem: avro is too java-centric for me (no unsigned)
2014-07-15T05:07:26Z kristof: Neat-o
2014-07-15T05:08:33Z vsync_ registered for ILC2014
2014-07-15T05:09:00Z kristof: inklesspen: Oh, with protocol buffer, everyone needs to know what they're looking for ahead of time
2014-07-15T05:09:12Z kristof: inklesspen: You can send JSON over the net and someone can figure out what it is
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2014-07-15T05:09:30Z brucem: kristof: if you like BSON ... you would probably like CBOR more.
2014-07-15T05:09:46Z brucem: kristof: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7049
2014-07-15T05:10:00Z vsync: ASN.1!
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2014-07-15T05:11:54Z kristof: brucem: Oh, this looks cool
2014-07-15T05:12:24Z brucem: kristof: it is! :)
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2014-07-15T05:12:39Z brucem: kristof: one day, I'll get around to implementing it in Dylan.
2014-07-15T05:13:25Z kristof: Oh, I remember you
2014-07-15T05:13:29Z kristof: the local dylan guy
2014-07-15T05:15:34Z Guthur: point 4 of the objectives in interesting
2014-07-15T05:15:54Z Guthur: size of the decoder is more important than the size of the serialized object
2014-07-15T05:16:11Z Guthur: size/compactness
2014-07-15T05:17:52Z kristof: Shouldn't it just be as fast as possible?
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2014-07-15T05:19:09Z Guthur: not one of the objectives, but I'm sure an implementation is free to be as fast as possible
2014-07-15T05:19:36Z brucem: Guthur: it is objective #5, just phrased differently.
2014-07-15T05:19:51Z Guthur: lol sorry i missed the next page
2014-07-15T05:19:55Z Guthur: oops
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2014-07-15T05:51:55Z kristof: Someone convince me not to use explicit variable capture in a macro
2014-07-15T05:52:09Z kristof: I don't want to end up like Paul Graham
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2014-07-15T06:09:30Z Guthur: kristof: if it's explicit what's the problem?
2014-07-15T06:09:57Z Guthur: I may be misunderstanding you
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2014-07-15T06:58:58Z wizzo: does lisp have a lot of problems/rough edges compared to other languages or is it just that the users are a lot more vocal about it than normal?
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2014-07-15T07:05:34Z zRecursive: wizzo: Lisp canot help you make much money directly, but it can make you much pedantic :)   so there is few real world app. developed by lisp, i may be wrong though.
2014-07-15T07:07:30Z Guthur: zRecursive: that's not a language, more one of marketing
2014-07-15T07:08:25Z wizzo: makes some sense at least
2014-07-15T07:08:37Z Guthur: though arguably in terms of marketing oneself you should be in a good position if you can demonstrate that you have explored languages outside the Java or whatever they do at uni
2014-07-15T07:08:44Z wizzo: i guess it's a bad question anyway, i can't imagine getting a yes/no answer
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2014-07-15T07:40:16Z joe-w-bimedina_: what is the simplest way to test to make sure a parameter entered is a boolean and if so output t
2014-07-15T07:40:42Z joe-w-bimedina_:  (or (not (eq test nil)) (not (eq test t))) isn't working
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2014-07-15T07:44:23Z mal_: (typep parameter 'boolean) or (member parameter '(t nil))
2014-07-15T07:44:36Z moore33: How about (or (eq test nil) (eq test t))?
2014-07-15T07:45:08Z mal_: as usual, this is probably not what you want to do. CL's convention of generalised booleans is deeply ingrained in the language and rather useful.
2014-07-15T07:45:23Z joe-w-bimedina_: thanks, I didn't know that was a class
2014-07-15T07:46:14Z moore33: It's not a class, it's a type, if I'm not mistaken.
2014-07-15T07:46:14Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina_: that's not a class.
2014-07-15T07:47:09Z joe-w-bimedina_: ok so just a type? thanks for heads up:)
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2014-07-15T07:52:32Z phadthai: also, check-type will error for you, if that's what you need
2014-07-15T07:53:01Z joe-w-bimedina_: thanks, that all is really simple
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2014-07-15T07:54:56Z krrrcks_: Hi, I was wondering what's a good way to produce a Excel spreadsheet with Common Lisp. Any "good practices" around?
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2014-07-15T07:55:41Z hitecnologys: krrrcks_: don't.
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2014-07-15T07:56:08Z hitecnologys: krrrcks_: I once tried. Don't make my mistake.
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2014-07-15T07:56:47Z krrrcks_: I was playing with BUILDNODE, there is some things for Excel. In LibreOffice it opens as a spreadsheet but Excel 2010 complains.
2014-07-15T07:56:57Z krrrcks_: (just tried the example of buildnode)
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2014-07-15T07:58:34Z krrrcks_: I read H4ns blog post with ABCL and Apache POI; but I was wondering if there is an easier way (without the need of ABCL ...).
2014-07-15T07:59:10Z H4ns: krrrcks_: if you don't care for formatting, you can save csv files with .xls extension
2014-07-15T07:59:48Z H4ns: krrrcks_: some users accept the extra work :)
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2014-07-15T08:01:03Z hitecnologys: H4ns: why would that kind of thing work? Excel has well-defined and horrific binary file format.
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2014-07-15T08:01:15Z H4ns: hitecnologys: it is simple.
2014-07-15T08:01:54Z H4ns: krrrcks_: there is also cl-olefs
2014-07-15T08:02:25Z krrrcks_: H4ns: Well... I first started with CSV ... but I got a bit struck with all the "automagic" Excel does when opening a CSV file (converting Strings to Dates and something like that).
2014-07-15T08:02:30Z hitecnologys: H4ns: but why would any program treat comma-separated values as XLS spreadsheet?
2014-07-15T08:02:46Z H4ns: krrrcks_: yeah, those kind of things.  cl-olefs will probably serve you wel.
2014-07-15T08:03:05Z H4ns: i need to adjust my typing precision, sorry :)
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2014-07-15T08:07:44Z krrrcks_: H4ns: Hm. cl-olefs is more for parsing excel files? Didn't find a write-function at first glance. Or did I miss something...?
2014-07-15T08:07:56Z H4ns: krrrcks_: oh, does it not have that?
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2014-07-15T08:08:08Z H4ns: krrrcks_: i'm sorry, i have never used it myself.
2014-07-15T08:08:31Z krrrcks_: H4ns: No problem. :-) But thanks for the hint.
2014-07-15T08:09:11Z krrrcks_: buildnode looked nice and the xlsx from their example is readable by libreoffice ... but not by excel ... gngngn.
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2014-07-15T08:10:20Z hitecnologys: krrrcks_: you may try resaving file with older versions of LibreOffice.
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2014-07-15T08:13:46Z krrrcks_: hitecnologys: That's an idea. Yeah. In the end I need it completely automagic: User klicks a "Download as Excel" button and gets an working excel file.
2014-07-15T08:13:49Z krrrcks_: well, in theory.
2014-07-15T08:15:40Z hitecnologys: krrrcks_: why do you want XLS so much? Does your output contain mathematical formulas or any other kind of non-textual resources?
2014-07-15T08:16:26Z H4ns: hitecnologys: users like excel files.
2014-07-15T08:17:12Z krrrcks_: hitecnologys: the customers demands it ;)
2014-07-15T08:17:33Z krrrcks_: hitecnologys: and I get paid for it. So money for pain. A normal exchange in modern capitalism. ;)
2014-07-15T08:17:37Z hitecnologys: H4ns: it doesn't make it any better. The format is horrible.
2014-07-15T08:18:02Z krrrcks_: hitecnologys: Agreed on that.
2014-07-15T08:18:10Z H4ns: hitecnologys: users don't care about your opinion on excel format files.
2014-07-15T08:18:16Z hitecnologys: krrrcks_: I see.
2014-07-15T08:18:22Z krrrcks_: Well, perhaps I try to produce a nice "csv" and hope that Excel will do the correct thing most of the time.
2014-07-15T08:19:18Z hitecnologys: H4ns: sure thing.
2014-07-15T08:20:04Z hitecnologys: H4ns: however, they probably should care about what file formats they use.
2014-07-15T08:20:24Z H4ns: hitecnologys: blah
2014-07-15T08:21:09Z hitecnologys: H4ns: yeah, I know, that's not going to happen.
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2014-07-15T08:24:36Z krrrcks_: thanks for your help!
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2014-07-15T09:09:16Z Cymew: krrrcks_: If you are name the csv file .xls some users will gladly click it and feel happy having gotten a "Excel file" is my experience
2014-07-15T09:09:49Z Cymew: It wont easy the pain, but is a nice trick to make then think they got what they wanted
2014-07-15T09:09:56Z joga: won't by default on windows the extension be hidden anyway and excel associated with it...
2014-07-15T09:10:07Z joga: well ok, you'd see it in email perhaps anyway...
2014-07-15T09:10:24Z Cymew: No idea. I just found out it made them happy...
2014-07-15T09:11:11Z Cymew hates Excel with a vengence, and think people trading information in excel sheets should be quartered and shot. And then really hurt.
2014-07-15T09:14:55Z krrrcks_: Cymew: Yeah. That's probably what I will do. But at the moment Excel annoys me with its conversion of numbers etc. I have a "1.1" string and get "Jan 1".
2014-07-15T09:15:13Z Cymew: I feel your pain, belive me!
2014-07-15T09:15:38Z krrrcks_: Pain, so much pain; I think I put that "problem" aside and get back to it tomorrow or something.
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2014-07-15T09:24:25Z schjetne: krrrcks_: I have the same requirement, and so far the same solution as you
2014-07-15T09:24:29Z schjetne: Do it some other day
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2014-07-15T09:41:53Z H4ns: krrrcks_: did you try quoting the strings with single quotes?
2014-07-15T09:42:32Z H4ns: well, in the end, i can recommend my abcl based solution.  it works very well, i have had in production since i posted and it never caused any trouble.
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2014-07-15T10:06:46Z schjetne: H4ns: do you run the whole application in ABCL, or just the part generating the excel stuff?
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2014-07-15T10:07:46Z H4ns: i have a separate microservice (<rimshot/>) which accepts xml and returns excel. the rest of my application uses sbcl.
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2014-07-15T10:10:00Z schjetne: H4ns: Does the microservice rely on MS Office itself? I'd hate to have to maintain a Windows instance, or any proprietary software at all.
2014-07-15T10:10:39Z H4ns: schjetne: not at all.  read this: http://netzhansa.blogspot.de/2013/03/dealing-with-excel-files-from-common.html
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2014-07-15T10:12:09Z schjetne: H4ns: Nice, I'll save that for when the day to implement excel export comes. But my goal is to make my application so good that the user will never have to touch the 'download excel' button.
2014-07-15T10:12:35Z Zhivago: What does goodness have to do with that?
2014-07-15T10:12:44Z H4ns: it is hard to beat excel from a user's perspective.
2014-07-15T10:13:27Z H4ns: Zhivago: excel is microsoft and that can't be good, by definition.  don't you know?
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2014-07-15T10:14:29Z schjetne: Spreadsheets are messy and hard to debug as they grow
2014-07-15T10:14:44Z dim: Excel allow users to do custom processing of the data, and custom visualisation too, and that is pretty hard to beat without implementing it again (see Google Docs)
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2014-07-15T10:15:27Z schjetne: A Lisp system is perfect for that kind of work, unfortunately not a lot of people are prepared to learn it
2014-07-15T10:15:33Z dim: https://code.google.com/p/zkspreadsheet/ and such might be a credible alternative
2014-07-15T10:15:39Z H4ns: true enough.  also, excel enables users to work with the data on their own, without becoming programmers.  i think it is good to enable users for that kind activity.
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2014-07-15T10:15:42Z schjetne: Maybe IJulia could be an option
2014-07-15T10:16:18Z schjetne: H4ns: Advanced Excel usage is a form of programming, done in a terrible programming language in a terrible IDE
2014-07-15T10:16:48Z Shinmera: But think of the power users!
2014-07-15T10:17:11Z schjetne: Maybe Julia could be an option if I scam the users into not thinking it's programming
2014-07-15T10:17:18Z H4ns: schjetne: i'm not recommending it to anyone.  the point still holds that there are a lot of people - users - who actually are productive in excel.
2014-07-15T10:17:29Z Guthur``: H4ns: except when it lowers the bar too far http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-04-18/faq-reinhart-rogoff-and-the-excel-error-that-changed-history
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2014-07-15T10:17:44Z faheem: schjetne: have you used julia?
2014-07-15T10:18:19Z Guthur``: the ubiquity of Excel is hard to argue against though
2014-07-15T10:18:36Z H4ns: Guthur``: are you trying to say that complicated tools are not misused?
2014-07-15T10:19:31Z schjetne: faheem: I've looked at it briefley, and heard nice things about it. They have also adapted IPython to it, which I think would be perfect for my user's use cases, if they are prepared to unlearn excel and learn Julia
2014-07-15T10:19:36Z Guthur``: H4ns: no, but excel sheets are possibly even harder to verify
2014-07-15T10:20:49Z schjetne: Another problem is the impedance mismatch of spreadsheet tables and the real world
2014-07-15T10:21:05Z Guthur``: excel has also does not protect a user from floating point issues
2014-07-15T10:21:23Z H4ns: you all should worry more about matching the impedance of common lisp to the real world :D
2014-07-15T10:21:28Z Guthur``: so you may lower the bar but that also means the user is less likely to take that in to consideration
2014-07-15T10:21:38Z H4ns: you may find that the mismatch between cl and the real world is even larger.
2014-07-15T10:22:01Z dim: Excel is for Marketing dept and their power users, not for real analysis
2014-07-15T10:22:08Z H4ns: riiiight
2014-07-15T10:22:18Z dim: that some might use the tool for the wrong thing, yes, that will always happen
2014-07-15T10:22:39Z schjetne: H4ns: surely much more powerful data structures can be constructed in CL than a simple table?
2014-07-15T10:22:41Z dim: what I mean is that if you develop an application where Marketing people will want to tweak numbers and charts, empower them with Excel
2014-07-15T10:22:58Z Guthur``: I'm coming to the conclusion that the endeavour to bring throughly abstract problem solve closer to some "real world" frame of the thinking is a falacy
2014-07-15T10:23:01Z dim: if you're doing accounting and finance and whatnot, well, don't allow exporting to Excel I would agrue
2014-07-15T10:23:15Z Guthur``: solve/solving
2014-07-15T10:23:19Z loke: dim: Not being able to use Excel in finance?
2014-07-15T10:23:35Z loke: dim: I wonder what planet you live on... (don't take me wrong, I'd love to move to that planet!)
2014-07-15T10:23:42Z faheem: schjetne: i looked at it the other day, and was fairly impressed. it would be a big improvement on matlab if it got traction. and an improvement over R too, possibly.
2014-07-15T10:23:42Z dim: for preview and understanding, maybe, for real numbers?
2014-07-15T10:24:03Z faheem: though it is positioned more as a matlab competitor.
2014-07-15T10:24:07Z schjetne: dim: accounting and finance analysts are indeed using Excel, and I'd love to empower them with more powerful tools
2014-07-15T10:24:13Z Shinmera: dim: have you seen Office Space
2014-07-15T10:24:13Z dim: loke: I'm not trying to explain how things work today, only how we could maybe influence them as application providers
2014-07-15T10:24:46Z faheem: i'm on debian wheezy. not the easiest thing to backport, but doable.
2014-07-15T10:25:10Z faheem: julia i mean
2014-07-15T10:25:44Z loke: dim: I work for a major (I think the corporate leaders would call it "the" major) vendor for financial trading software. Now, I was at a customer's trading floor once, and the head trader told me our system sucked and went on showing how he did "everything that he considered important" from his own Excel sheet
2014-07-15T10:25:47Z faheem: they've managed to get lisp features with matlab syntax. that's quite a trick
2014-07-15T10:26:02Z loke: "look how fast it is, your system sucks in comparison"
2014-07-15T10:26:07Z H4ns: loke: that's why we're screwed, don't you know?
2014-07-15T10:26:17Z faheem: loke: did you heart fill with terror?
2014-07-15T10:26:17Z loke: H4ns: I never said we weren't.
2014-07-15T10:26:19Z H4ns: loke: if they'd do it in lisp, the world would be a better place!1
2014-07-15T10:26:45Z loke: H4ns: I just found dim's belief that it's possible to get Excel out of finance to somewhat... hmm... naïve :-)
2014-07-15T10:26:51Z dim: but now they would have to understand both finance and lisp
2014-07-15T10:27:07Z loke: H4ns: I pushed a Lisp application into a somewhat large bank
2014-07-15T10:27:09Z dim: loke: yeah, my proposal here is very very naive
2014-07-15T10:27:12Z H4ns: loke: that, or arrogant.
2014-07-15T10:27:17Z Shinmera: Truly we should model the world after lisp and not the other way around
2014-07-15T10:27:45Z loke: It was a web application for inputing forex trades, and netted them before pusing into the backend trading system
2014-07-15T10:27:55Z dim: as lots of proposals hearing the feedback from it allows to understand how feasible it is, and based on what I read here my understanding is "not at all"
2014-07-15T10:28:10Z dim: so might as well embed a nice Excel export button
2014-07-15T10:28:22Z schjetne: loke: you have to start somewhere. I think I'll install a "days since last time a user clicked "export to excel" counter in my office.
2014-07-15T10:28:23Z loke: I believe they went on and rewrite it in Java because their developers couldn't handle it
2014-07-15T10:29:02Z loke: (75% of the code was in the browser anyway, Javascript)
2014-07-15T10:29:03Z schjetne: I'll take hits on that button as an indication that my application isn't powerful enough
2014-07-15T10:29:32Z dim: do you really want to write Excel again?
2014-07-15T10:29:46Z Shinmera: schjetne: as a first step, integrate email.
2014-07-15T10:30:00Z loke: Is there a sane format that Excel can import reliably?
2014-07-15T10:30:27Z dim: loke: .xls I presume
2014-07-15T10:30:28Z p_l: loke: the question is, how complex is the data you want to import?
2014-07-15T10:30:37Z hitecnologys: dim: XLS? Are you kidding?
2014-07-15T10:30:40Z loke: dim: Excluded because it's not sane :-)
2014-07-15T10:30:46Z schjetne: And certainly not .xlsx
2014-07-15T10:30:59Z dim: well back to H4ns post about how to cook xls from ABCL
2014-07-15T10:31:01Z loke: Have you read the office file format spec? It's hillarious. I recommend you do it just for the l0lz
2014-07-15T10:31:02Z p_l: for just a bunch of numbers, CSV will actually work. Excel 2003 XML was what I used in the past and it worked splendidly
2014-07-15T10:31:43Z hitecnologys: loke: it's not hillarious, it's sad. Imagine people who actually *work* with it.
2014-07-15T10:31:59Z p_l: it's not so sad when you consider *why* it evolved in certain ways
2014-07-15T10:32:28Z hitecnologys: Obviously, because it's Microsoft!
2014-07-15T10:32:40Z p_l: no, because the main storage medium was a fucking slow PIO floppy
2014-07-15T10:32:41Z H4ns: hitecnologys: you keep whining about having to "work" with stuff.  don't you know that the work is already done?
2014-07-15T10:33:13Z Shinmera: I recall reading a blog article about the immense amount of hoops they had to go through way back when to design the office formats in an efficient manner
2014-07-15T10:33:14Z loke: One thing that I still don't understand (can you guys help?) is why the file format spec lists an key-value list representing every single menu option in Word
2014-07-15T10:33:29Z Shinmera: And then you have to take into account the addition of new features and the requirement of backwards compatibility
2014-07-15T10:33:31Z loke: Why does a file format need to identify a menu option?
2014-07-15T10:33:31Z hitecnologys: H4ns: until kernel developers break compatibility and they would have to update MS Office.
2014-07-15T10:33:40Z loke: (undo history perhaps?)
2014-07-15T10:33:41Z Shinmera: That'll guarantee you a horrible file format
2014-07-15T10:34:00Z p_l: loke: the spec was written recently, originally the spec was in the form of header files describing in-memory format that was blitted to/from disk
2014-07-15T10:35:09Z p_l: Shinmera: The supposed *portable* format for Word was RTF. DOC was not supposed to even be moved much between machines, afaik
2014-07-15T10:35:11Z krrrcks_: Oh oh ... I did start a discussion ;)
2014-07-15T10:35:27Z p_l: Shinmera: you can notice easily the vastly different design approach of RTF and DOC :)
2014-07-15T10:36:07Z krrrcks_: loke: I made the same experience: A friend of mine is working as a trader. He uses Excel for nearly everything (often they use plugins for several statistics), their own trading system is only for handling the transaction.
2014-07-15T10:36:11Z p_l: DOC is "writing 1kB is fucking expensive, and you want to rewrite the file??" kind of format
2014-07-15T10:36:33Z Shinmera: p_l: I never looked at the specs or the formats themselves. I just recall a blog post by Joel Spolsky about his time at the MS office team
2014-07-15T10:36:47Z krrrcks_: loke: And, he said: "99% of our financial system is based on Excel" ... Taking that for true my conclusion was: Hey, the fincancial system must be really stable to survive excel.
2014-07-15T10:37:10Z p_l: krrrcks_: Office is very extensible, and there's a lot that can be used to make it into a quite good "interface" to other stuff
2014-07-15T10:37:23Z p_l: (in fact, much better than fucking around with www forms, often)
2014-07-15T10:37:39Z schjetne: Maybe I can package IJulia as an "enterprise appliance", with an API to my application
2014-07-15T10:37:39Z hitecnologys: I saw painting made in Excel once...
2014-07-15T10:37:41Z krrrcks_: H4ns: When you posted your abcl version I gave that a try (just for playing around). I think I'll take that for my current project and integrate that.
2014-07-15T10:38:01Z p_l: krrrcks_: unfortunately many, many people will instead create XLS files that should be replaced with complete application
2014-07-15T10:38:37Z p_l once had seen XLS file that controlled a chemical plant
2014-07-15T10:38:47Z hitecnologys: Oh glob.
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2014-07-15T10:39:56Z p_l: I don't care that it's one of the oldest uses of computer spreadsheets ever (the oldest known spreadsheet system involved managing a chemical plant), when using Excel for that you use extension points, not VBA and Excel formulas
2014-07-15T10:40:07Z krrrcks_: p_l: Friend of mine had a customer: He managed a logistics company with about 40-50 trucks and 5,000 invoices per month totally in Excel.
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2014-07-15T10:40:30Z p_l: krrrcks_: it's not that much different from using paper spreadsheets, or tabulator engines
2014-07-15T10:40:45Z krrrcks_: p_l: yes. :)
2014-07-15T10:40:50Z p_l: there's a company in USA that runs payroll on classic non-turing-complete IBM hw
2014-07-15T10:40:54Z loke: krrrcks_: Actually, unless he works in a really tiny organisation, they have a real trading system
2014-07-15T10:41:14Z p_l: loke: many use Excel as interface
2014-07-15T10:41:32Z loke: krrrcks_: A properly configured system allows the traders to play with as much Excel as they want, but when they actually trade all the limits are based on numbers coming from the real system
2014-07-15T10:41:42Z krrrcks_: loke: They have, but they have a lot of "beside the officical system" excel sheets.
2014-07-15T10:41:58Z krrrcks_: loke: yes, of course. that is true.
2014-07-15T10:42:28Z loke: Mostly the traders just use whatever numbers they have to justify their own gut feeling anyway
2014-07-15T10:42:54Z krrrcks_: I think I'll produce a excel sheet using H4ns' solution and count how often the end user really use this feature ;)
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2014-07-15T10:44:03Z H4ns: krrrcks_: the real challenge is to package up the abcl based service
2014-07-15T10:44:08Z wizzo: does anyone know of an existing project i can look at that uses CXML?
2014-07-15T10:44:18Z p_l: krrrcks_: last time I ended up generating Excel 2003 XML (not XSLX, a flat XML file), by first converting an example of the target (XSL) file into it, then writing a bunch of string concatenating functions that replicated it with filled-in data
2014-07-15T10:44:19Z wizzo: i've been butting my head against it for hours now, i can't figure out how to use CXML
2014-07-15T10:44:36Z krrrcks_: H4ns: That was the reason why I avoided the ABCL solution up to now.
2014-07-15T10:44:41Z H4ns: krrrcks_: i ended up using a load.lisp file to load everything from source.
2014-07-15T10:44:52Z loke: If I had to do it from CL, I'd use ABCL together with that Java library go generate Excel.
2014-07-15T10:45:04Z H4ns: wizzo: what is it that you can't figure out?  cxml is rather big.
2014-07-15T10:45:29Z loke: wizzo: do you just want to parse XML/
2014-07-15T10:45:30Z loke: ?
2014-07-15T10:45:53Z krrrcks_: p_l: Well... perhaps that is a good idea as well. The resulting table is very simple, no calculations, only one table with about 6-7 columns; the calculation is done by the lisp server.
2014-07-15T10:46:12Z wizzo: H4ns: i'm not quite sure of even that. like i can get some elements out that i want with the dom stuff, but then i don't know what functions will take the dom rune objects
2014-07-15T10:46:16Z wizzo: some do, some don't like it
2014-07-15T10:46:25Z wizzo: loke: i want to parse an rss feed
2014-07-15T10:46:31Z H4ns: wizzo: the cxml-stp examples are rather instructive i think.
2014-07-15T10:46:58Z H4ns: wizzo: https://github.com/hanshuebner/planetwit parses xml feeds
2014-07-15T10:47:01Z p_l: wizzo: for just parsing, cxml-stp is IMO the best
2014-07-15T10:47:19Z p_l: krrrcks_: in my case it converted a table in moinmoin wiki into filled in timesheet for HR to consume
2014-07-15T10:47:47Z wizzo: H4ns p_l thank you thank you thank you
2014-07-15T10:47:57Z wizzo: might start crying now
2014-07-15T10:48:27Z p_l: wizzo: no problem. Be happy you're not dealing with classical DOM in Java, IMO :)
2014-07-15T10:48:45Z wizzo: i never want to look at xml again in my life after this
2014-07-15T10:49:02Z loke: Actually, it's not too bad if you load it into a DOM tree and then use Xpath to access it.
2014-07-15T10:49:06Z p_l: ehh, XML is not so bad. Some of it users, though………
2014-07-15T10:49:11Z p_l: loke: XPath is nice, yes
2014-07-15T10:49:45Z p_l: I wish I had something like that for JSON that actually worked nicely with GSON (java project, unfortunately calling out to lisp would be too costly and problematic)
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2014-07-15T10:49:56Z krrrcks_: same project, customer throwed a bunch of xml files in my inbox: "Hey, it's XML, that's standard. It's self-explanatory." In the end it wasn't, the documentation was old and I had a lot of fun parsing these files.
2014-07-15T10:50:48Z krrrcks_: (but that in the end it was not technical problem, more a social problem ;)
2014-07-15T10:50:58Z p_l: krrrcks_: I found XML (and many related standards) itself to be quite great thing to use... but that depends on it being used right. Which it usually isn't, and sometimes the other side breaks the spec so horribly it won't work. So yeah, social problem :)
2014-07-15T10:50:58Z Shinmera: wizzo: If you want to give an alternative parsing library a shot, there's also Plump. http://shinmera.github.io/plump/
2014-07-15T10:51:54Z p_l: krrrcks_: and some people just want to make the worst possible choices (Apple XML .plist files, whoever authored that DTD ...#!(%^(#!)
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2014-07-15T10:53:32Z krrrcks_: thanks for the cxml-stp hint.
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2014-07-15T11:00:53Z Zhivago: I like XML because it means that people don't invent their own special and horribly broken representations. I dislike XML because people generate fake XML.
2014-07-15T11:02:16Z Guthur``: Zhivago: you mean non-well form XML documents?
2014-07-15T11:03:19Z InvalidCo: hmm
2014-07-15T11:03:35Z InvalidCo: I wonder why sbcl won't step through (step (+ 3 4 (* 5 6 (/ 7 8))))
2014-07-15T11:03:35Z Zhivago: I mean generate documents that look like XML by string manipulation in perl or whatever.
2014-07-15T11:03:49Z InvalidCo: but it does step through (step (foo 1 2)) just fine
2014-07-15T11:03:52Z Zhivago: Why do you think there's anything to step through?
2014-07-15T11:04:02Z Zhivago: Consider constant folding.
2014-07-15T11:04:31Z InvalidCo: ah, of course
2014-07-15T11:09:07Z schjetne: Finally my copy of LOL is on the way
2014-07-15T11:10:39Z p_l: Zhivago: or where the other side doesn't implement XML properly, and hardcodes things...
2014-07-15T11:10:59Z p_l: (like namespace shorthands)
2014-07-15T11:11:41Z JuanDaugherty: LOL?
2014-07-15T11:11:46Z Shinmera: Let Over Lambda
2014-07-15T11:11:51Z JuanDaugherty: ah
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2014-07-15T11:12:02Z schjetne: That one, yes
2014-07-15T11:12:12Z mingus is now known as m1ngs
2014-07-15T11:12:18Z m1ngs is now known as m1ngus
2014-07-15T11:12:36Z schjetne: I guess Land of Lisp would be LoL
2014-07-15T11:13:09Z p_l: or as some of us say, Big Lol and Small Lol
2014-07-15T11:13:16Z JuanDaugherty: the use of "handcore" in the first google result creates a bad impression as does the occurence of clojure
2014-07-15T11:13:22Z p_l: (appropriately, Let Over Lambda and Land of Lisp)
2014-07-15T11:14:03Z schjetne: But the book store still hasn't fixed the text encoding bug I reported last week
2014-07-15T11:15:32Z JuanDaugherty: srsly
2014-07-15T11:15:38Z JuanDaugherty: u think they can?
2014-07-15T11:15:56Z JuanDaugherty: book stores don't normally make books
2014-07-15T11:16:25Z schjetne: They use something called Microsoft CDO for Windows 2000 to send email, which apparently doesn't understand the concept of text encoding headers
2014-07-15T11:16:27Z JuanDaugherty: even the paper ones
2014-07-15T11:16:56Z schjetne: They use latin1, but apparently assumes people's user agents can read minds
2014-07-15T11:17:16Z JuanDaugherty: ah, they're still unlikely to be able to correct something like that
2014-07-15T11:17:57Z schjetne: Short of trashing their Windows 2000 system and installing something that supports Unicode
2014-07-15T11:18:08Z JuanDaugherty: the only thing that seems to have pervasively shifted to culture neutral yet is use of UTC as time ref
2014-07-15T11:19:18Z JuanDaugherty: I am able to enter my chinese name ( 仁 人 卷 ) a lot of places but by no means all
2014-07-15T11:20:05Z JuanDaugherty: yeah the CDO was migrated to some .net thing iirc
2014-07-15T11:20:14Z schjetne: It's funny that they send the order receipt in UTF-8, but the shipping confirmation in Latin-1
2014-07-15T11:20:23Z schjetne: Must be separate systems
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2014-07-15T11:20:49Z JuanDaugherty: probably that part used current MS stuffs
2014-07-15T11:21:53Z JuanDaugherty: funny because IBM/MS pioneered non western code sets
2014-07-15T11:22:01Z schjetne: Hats off to Microsoft for not pushing an incompatible and unimplementable alternative to UTF-8 through ISO
2014-07-15T11:22:22Z JuanDaugherty: but CDO was just a thing that everybody used for email (in the MS universe)
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2014-07-15T11:23:46Z JuanDaugherty: anybody know of an Condor-lisp integration? (the high throughput/grid computing thing)?
2014-07-15T11:23:53Z JuanDaugherty: *any
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2014-07-15T11:35:26Z Cymew: If Condor is anything at all like similar resource managers and schedulers in the HPC/grid arena, you probably need to have the thing you want to execute on all the nodes, i.e. a lisp on the nodes. That sounds like a potential problem. But, I am guessing, since I know nothing a bout Condor.
2014-07-15T11:36:54Z JuanDaugherty is suddenly aware had stepped into distributed lisp
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2014-07-15T11:39:37Z schjetne: Damnit, I've had enough trying to wrestle alists into JSON. I'll use hash tables from now on
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2014-07-15T11:44:44Z joe-w-bimedina_: is there any lisp function that expects a boolean type eg  (typep val 'boolean)
2014-07-15T11:44:59Z joe-w-bimedina_: can someone name a specific one
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2014-07-15T11:47:23Z jdz: why would there bo one?
2014-07-15T11:47:53Z Shinmera: I don't think there's ever a reason not to use generalised booleans.
2014-07-15T11:48:11Z antoszka: joe-w-bimedina_: CL by convention uses generalized booleans, there's no separate #t and #f like in scheme
2014-07-15T11:48:24Z antoszka: joe-w-bimedina_: so anything other than NIL is true
2014-07-15T11:48:35Z jdz: antoszka: there's T and NIL in CL
2014-07-15T11:48:43Z antoszka: jdz: I know.
2014-07-15T11:48:43Z joe-w-bimedina_: I just wanted to examine the error message of a function that expects a boolean
2014-07-15T11:49:03Z jdz: antoszka: i don't understand your claim, then
2014-07-15T11:49:05Z schjetne: the source of my problem with JSON, NIL could be empty array, null or false
2014-07-15T11:49:25Z joe-w-bimedina_: so i know how to define my boolean errors
2014-07-15T11:49:38Z H4ns: schjetne: the mismatch between json and lisp's data types was what prompted me to write yason
2014-07-15T11:49:42Z Shinmera: schjetne: some JSON libraries allow you to define a special variable to deal with that.
2014-07-15T11:49:52Z antoszka: jdz: they're not anything *special* – nil is *just* an empty list, and T is the supertype of anything non-nil
2014-07-15T11:50:04Z Shinmera: schjetne: by 'special' I don't mean a *special*
2014-07-15T11:50:11Z jdz: antoszka: there are symbols T and NIL
2014-07-15T11:50:19Z schjetne: H4ns: you have my gratitude for Yason
2014-07-15T11:50:28Z antoszka: jdz: …and?
2014-07-15T11:50:46Z jdz: antoszka: they are "separate" true and false values
2014-07-15T11:50:47Z hitecnologys: schjetne: use jsown. It supports :false, :null and NIL which are translated to false, null and [] accordingly.
2014-07-15T11:51:25Z antoszka: jdz: For any function that is interested in a „truth value” you'd by convention just as well could use "foo" and (). Rather than the T and NIL symbols.
2014-07-15T11:51:56Z Shinmera: antoszka: I believe his point is that you can force the same true / false boolean distinction as in scheme by directly looking for NIL and T.
2014-07-15T11:52:04Z joe-w-bimedina_: i just needed a function that required a boolean as a parameter
2014-07-15T11:52:14Z antoszka: Shinmera: Yep, except that it's not used in the CL world.
2014-07-15T11:52:32Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina_: there is none in common lisp.
2014-07-15T11:52:40Z jdz: antoszka: what about CASE?
2014-07-15T11:52:42Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina_: there's no such buit-in function. Period.
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2014-07-15T11:53:30Z jdz: antoszka: it's not a function, but you definitely cannot use "foo" where T would work
2014-07-15T11:53:31Z joe-w-bimedina_: really? ...ok that's a suprise, thanks for letting me know
2014-07-15T11:55:58Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina_: and I can't possibly imagine why would you want to signal custom errors while there's already type-error.
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2014-07-15T11:56:54Z antoszka: jdz: you don't pass T as an argument to case, it's just a part of macroexpansion
2014-07-15T11:56:57Z jdz: joe-w-bimedina_: what about this function: (defun foo (x) (check-type x boolean) x)?
2014-07-15T11:56:58Z joe-w-bimedina_: oh, I just made my own assuming..one sec
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2014-07-15T11:57:29Z H4ns: brace! here comes another gist!
2014-07-15T11:58:08Z jdz: antoszka: can I have what you're smoking, too?
2014-07-15T11:58:10Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina_: have you even tried abstacting away from your specific problems to something more general?
2014-07-15T11:58:27Z antoszka: jdz: Another one is 'otherwise in case of case.
2014-07-15T11:58:57Z jdz: antoszka: bedsides the point
2014-07-15T11:59:07Z jdz: blergh
2014-07-15T11:59:43Z antoszka: I thought the discussion is of expecting a particular *type* in a function, not discussing expecting a particular *symbol* in macroexpansion. Note they're rather separate things.
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2014-07-15T12:00:43Z jdz: and i was curious about why you'd say that CL does not have "separate #t and #f like in scheme", if T and NIL are exactly that
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2014-07-15T12:03:33Z joe-w-bimedina: jdz: that is perfect thanks
2014-07-15T12:04:07Z joe-w-bimedina: hitecnologys: don't follow, I just needed an error message to copy, so mine would look nice to
2014-07-15T12:04:34Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: why do you need such an error message?
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2014-07-15T12:05:18Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: if you're doing your own type checking, drop it.
2014-07-15T12:05:43Z joe-w-bimedina: I thinks it looks right if my error messages match lisp's, but I already got what I needed so I don;t need to take up your time
2014-07-15T12:05:49Z joe-w-bimedina: will do
2014-07-15T12:06:42Z hitecnologys: No you won't.
2014-07-15T12:07:11Z joe-w-bimedina: why do you say that?
2014-07-15T12:08:37Z hitecnologys: Because Common Lisp already has extensive and flexible instruments for working with types and there's no need to reinvent the wheel unless you know what is it that you're trying to achieve. You, apparently, don't.
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2014-07-15T12:09:50Z hitecnologys: Use what your implementation provides and don't supersede it unless required by task.
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2014-07-15T12:11:29Z Guthur``: my colleague and i were discussing the other day how powerful yet underused CL's user type system is
2014-07-15T12:11:37Z joe-w-bimedina: i just got introduced to check-type so i'll play with that,  I'm making everything implementation independent
2014-07-15T12:12:58Z hitecnologys: Guthur``: indeed. It's quite powerful compared to many mainstream languages.
2014-07-15T12:14:41Z Guthur``: joe-w-bimedina: check-type is just a guard, if you want to explore the expressiveness of CLs type system then look at deftype and subtypep
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2014-07-15T12:15:18Z joe-w-bimedina: the guard is good for this function, thanks though,,i'll look into those too
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2014-07-15T13:15:21Z hitecnologys: Is there something built-in like SUBSEQ that operates on lists instead of sequences? (so that (subseq '() 0 2) would return (NIL NIL), not signal an error)
2014-07-15T13:15:37Z eudoxia: sublis
2014-07-15T13:15:55Z eudoxia: but i don't think it does what you want
2014-07-15T13:15:55Z Xach: heh
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2014-07-15T13:16:12Z hitecnologys: eudoxia: nope, not at all.
2014-07-15T13:19:16Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: you mean that the subseq is always the length you specify?
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2014-07-15T13:22:36Z theos: Xach are clim and mcclim packages the same on quicklisp?
2014-07-15T13:22:38Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: I can think of (loop for item = (nthcdr from list) then (cdr item) for i from from below to collect (car item))
2014-07-15T13:23:34Z Xach: theos: I don't know.
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2014-07-15T13:30:43Z theos: #<SYSTEM clim / mcclim-20130813-cvs / quicklisp 2013-08-13> and #<SYSTEM mcclim / mcclim-20130813-cvs / quicklisp 2013-08-13>
2014-07-15T13:31:01Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: sort of.
2014-07-15T13:31:09Z Fare: yay, quicklisp has *yet another* command-line parsing library.
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2014-07-15T13:31:37Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: yeah, that's what I did too. I was just wondering if there's existing solution.
2014-07-15T13:31:59Z Fare: maybe we need a new testing library, or two, also
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2014-07-15T13:32:13Z hitecnologys: Fare: what's wrong with 5am?
2014-07-15T13:32:22Z Guthur```: hitecnologys: i think it was sarcasm
2014-07-15T13:32:27Z Fare: NIH
2014-07-15T13:32:40Z eudoxia: Fare: are there really that many command-line parsing libraries in QL?
2014-07-15T13:32:54Z Xach: There are 5 or 10
2014-07-15T13:32:57Z eudoxia: i saw, maybe, one, but i probably didn't look hard enough
2014-07-15T13:32:58Z hitecnologys: Guthur```: ah, my sarcasm detector is broken today.
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2014-07-15T13:33:28Z Guthur```: people want to build stuff, and it's difficult to push one's self beyond a comfort zone
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2014-07-15T13:33:30Z hitecnologys: Holy my, 10 CLI parsing utilities?
2014-07-15T13:33:38Z Guthur```: the hard stuff is hard, and stays untouched
2014-07-15T13:33:49Z Xach: Guthur```: true.
2014-07-15T13:34:09Z eudoxia: shrug
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2014-07-15T13:34:18Z eudoxia: npm probably has a million micro-frameworks submitted every month
2014-07-15T13:34:40Z Fare: what's npm?
2014-07-15T13:34:55Z eudoxia: the package manager for node
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2014-07-15T13:38:20Z Fare: so... who's going to Montreal for ILC ?
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2014-07-15T13:38:43Z Fare: News: The early registration deadline has been extended to July 18.
2014-07-15T13:39:22Z p_l: I'd love to, even got visa-less travel to Canada, but no chance I'd get the funds :)
2014-07-15T13:39:31Z hitecnologys: Bleh, I wish I could go there.
2014-07-15T13:41:09Z Fare: registration is only $300. Travel + lodging may be more
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2014-07-15T13:41:40Z Guthur```: I was considering as well, until i checked the price of flights from Australia
2014-07-15T13:41:46Z Guthur```: around $3000AUD
2014-07-15T13:41:50Z Guthur```: ouch
2014-07-15T13:42:02Z Xach: But if you start swimming today...
2014-07-15T13:42:52Z hitecnologys: With ship you probably can make it.
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2014-07-15T13:43:12Z Guthur```: hehe, that might be fun
2014-07-15T13:43:21Z hitecnologys: And deadly.
2014-07-15T13:43:34Z eudoxia: "Show HN: How I used Lisp to design a boat and sail to the International Lisp Conference"
2014-07-15T13:43:43Z eudoxia: 375 points 2 comments
2014-07-15T13:43:50Z p_l: getting to the port, that is. The seas might be less dangerous than Australia
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2014-07-15T13:44:36Z Guthur```: eudoxia: (save-lisp-and-die)
2014-07-15T13:44:45Z hitecnologys: Guthur```: save-lisp-and-dive
2014-07-15T13:44:51Z Guthur```: eheh
2014-07-15T13:45:01Z p_l: there's always the KSP-style route
2014-07-15T13:45:10Z p_l: just remember to clear it up with NORAD first
2014-07-15T13:45:26Z ustunozgur joined #lisp
2014-07-15T13:45:28Z hitecnologys: Heh.
2014-07-15T13:45:42Z Guthur```: i got the demo for that, and couldn't even start the engines
2014-07-15T13:45:59Z loke_: which city in canada is it?
2014-07-15T13:46:06Z p_l: Montreal, iirc?
2014-07-15T13:46:09Z hitecnologys: p_l: yes.
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2014-07-15T13:47:44Z names: ccl-logbot ustunozgur jusss askatasuna fortitude didi oleo fridim_ eudoxia Ralt mac_ified loke_ ggole Fare moore33 ndrei Guthur``` BitPuffin LiamH sz0 zacharias test1600 jtza8 Karl_Dscc knob zwer Ethan- seangrove Intensity Zhivago jchochli gabot zarul rvchangue ecraven ura lifenoodles hefner cmatei Oddity Kabaka jrm Natch joneshf TristamWrk therik kirin` Corey peterhil AntiSpamMeta dan64 anunnaki les cmbntr_ sigjuice_ Posterdati justinmcp xenophon j_king
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2014-07-15T13:47:44Z names: l_a_m angavrilov Harag _JokerDoom gravicappa stepnem lupine Krystof codeburg noncom|2 slyrus JuanDaugherty CrazyEddy DGASAU karswell` Ayey_ overdrive Shinmera zickzackv mvilleneuve Cymew vaporatorius nand1 arenz araujo varjag Okasu hitecnologys joneshf-laptop mishoo yano mrSpec michael_lee banjara wizzo Gooder`` tomaw z0d tkd_ troydm ck_ Bike __main__ hugod|away yeltzooo drewc alexherbo2 ``Erik kanru Eyess jlarocco aeth effy nicdev sykopomp doomlord_ DrCode
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2014-07-15T13:47:44Z names: felideon bobbysmith007 zxq9 Patzy honkfestival joast _tca_ em sgray10 funnel faheem tessier_ arbscht redline6561 vhost- The_third_man dim jsnell SirSkidmore Guest88980 InvalidCo theBlackDragon jdz p_l|backup brucem brandonz zymurgy gniourf sellout Tordek Neptu drdo shadowfax l3thal fe[nl]ix saarin ineiros_ eagleflo jtz j0ni lonjil diginet galdor draculus notori0us inklesspen housel gz_ shwouchk White__Flame hypno_ aksatac_ nimiux tvaalen_ phf Blkt johs
2014-07-15T13:47:44Z names: Adeon bjorkintosh bhyde oGMo teiresias stopbit misv_ guaqua``` ThePhoeron gregburd wchun bcoburn replcated benny mathrick zbigniew micro` whartung TheMoonMaster cods pok_ heddwch aoh clog _abbe` luis FracV s_e copec eee-blt dRbiG fikusz beppu jasom sid_cypher kbtr necronian _death girrig flip214
2014-07-15T13:47:55Z hitecnologys: Canadian Union.
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2014-07-15T13:48:10Z schjetne: Well, St. Pierre et Miquelon was in Vichy control, maybe they want to relive the good old days?
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2014-07-15T13:48:25Z loke_: Hmm, 2290 SGD for me to go to montreal
2014-07-15T13:48:33Z loke_: no wait, via delta. That means stopover in the US
2014-07-15T13:49:06Z loke_: Air Canada via Hong Kong: 2747
2014-07-15T13:49:14Z loke_: Still expensive
2014-07-15T13:49:50Z Fare: schjetne, they are more following the russian school than the german school
2014-07-15T13:50:42Z Fare: though the cancer has metastatized after 1991.
2014-07-15T13:50:56Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2014-07-15T13:51:07Z Fare: anyway, off-topic
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2014-07-15T13:58:10Z Guthur```: umm just had a thought, would a library request list be workable
2014-07-15T13:58:40Z Xach: Guthur```: Someone says "i need a library to do XYZ" and someone else says "sure! i want to do that for you!"?
2014-07-15T13:58:48Z eudoxia: my trello board, top lel
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2014-07-15T13:59:02Z Guthur```: Xach: well, yeah when you but it like that it sounds bad
2014-07-15T13:59:27Z Xach: Guthur```: Not intentionally. Just not sure what you mean.
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2014-07-15T14:00:35Z hitecnologys: Xach: he suggests to create a list of things that are needed to be done so that people would know what to focus on instead of doing something that was done before several times.
2014-07-15T14:00:58Z hitecnologys: s/to create/creating/
2014-07-15T14:01:28Z fe[nl]ix: Fare: I'm not coming. the visa process is too much of a hassle
2014-07-15T14:01:39Z Xach: I don't think people who create redundant things care about priorities or needs anyway.
2014-07-15T14:02:02Z Guthur```: not sure it would solve the NIH issue, but more to give something for eager devs to look at and say "i would like lemonodor fame for providing that library"
2014-07-15T14:02:06Z hitecnologys: Well, I wouldn't mind against such a list too.
2014-07-15T14:02:49Z Fare: fe[nl]ix, :-(
2014-07-15T14:02:59Z hitecnologys: What's this NIH thing?
2014-07-15T14:03:06Z eudoxia: not invented here
2014-07-15T14:03:14Z hitecnologys: I see.
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2014-07-15T14:04:14Z eudoxia: i always have to look up what it means
2014-07-15T14:04:45Z hitecnologys: Xach: also, such a list will help developers coordinate their actions and keep track on what's beeing done at the moment.
2014-07-15T14:04:54Z eudoxia: oh this is nice http://mrkkrp.github.io/mife/
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2014-07-15T14:05:11Z Xach: hitecnologys: Are you eager to become part of such coordination?
2014-07-15T14:05:27Z Xach: What are you working on? Is that really the best use of your time?
2014-07-15T14:05:35Z eudoxia: why not open a public trello board, it's not too time consuming
2014-07-15T14:06:07Z Guthur```: ah but so many have tried and failed...the collaboration in the CL community that is
2014-07-15T14:06:37Z Fare: hitecnologys, starting or maintaining a list is cheap — attracting people while keeping the discussions meaningful is hard.
2014-07-15T14:06:56Z hitecnologys: Xach: I don't really need this coordination at the moment as I'm not doing anything useful for community but having a global TODO list won't hurt anyone.
2014-07-15T14:07:05Z Fare: Xach: of course, asking that question on IRC...
2014-07-15T14:07:17Z hitecnologys: Fare: indeed.
2014-07-15T14:07:27Z Guthur```: what was the name of that CL doc repo
2014-07-15T14:07:39Z Fare: CDR ?
2014-07-15T14:07:40Z hitecnologys: eudoxia: woah, looks interesting.
2014-07-15T14:07:41Z Guthur```: that
2014-07-15T14:07:44Z Guthur```: is it
2014-07-15T14:08:32Z Xach: hitecnologys: Is making a global todo list really the best use of your time? Shouldn't you be exercising?
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2014-07-15T14:09:18Z eudoxia: here you go https://trello.com/b/ldhHAIIU/library-development
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2014-07-15T14:11:15Z hitecnologys: Xach: probably not the best but also not the worst. I do much more useless stuff on daily basis than you can imagine.
2014-07-15T14:11:47Z Guthur`: ah my wonderfully bad internet
2014-07-15T14:12:09Z Guthur``` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2014-07-15T14:12:11Z Guthur`: not sure if my last messages got through, is there an upto date irc log link
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2014-07-15T14:12:34Z eudoxia: Guthur`: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/lisp-2014-07.txt
2014-07-15T14:12:43Z theos: does anyone use CLIM/MCLIM? is it good enough or do we have something better?
2014-07-15T14:12:49Z Guthur`: eudoxia: cheers
2014-07-15T14:12:50Z theos: MCCLIM*
2014-07-15T14:12:51Z hitecnologys: eudoxia: that's unusable. Search and tags are required, otherwise list would become too big to work with over time.
2014-07-15T14:13:18Z Xach: theos: Few use it who are not also working on it.
2014-07-15T14:13:19Z eudoxia: hitecnologys: it's not like there are thousands of potential contributors ;/
2014-07-15T14:13:49Z theos: Xach so what would you recommend?
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2014-07-15T14:14:04Z hitecnologys: eudoxia: no, but I list isn't worth keeping if you can't look things up in it.
2014-07-15T14:14:12Z eudoxia: theos: CommonQt or one of the ffi bindings
2014-07-15T14:14:16Z Xach: theos: If someone wanted me to make a GUI program for them, and I wanted to use Common Lisp, and there was money involved, I would use LispWorks CAPI.
2014-07-15T14:14:32Z Xach: theos: If there was no money involved, I would probably try to do it via web stuff instead.
2014-07-15T14:15:10Z theos: Xach i dont think CAPI would be free to use. any free alternative?
2014-07-15T14:15:30Z Guthur`: theos: another option is to use hunchentoot and server up webapp for use in a browser
2014-07-15T14:15:46Z Xach: theos: It is not free to use. If not spending any money was a priority for me, I would spend time trying to make CommonQt work, probably.
2014-07-15T14:16:14Z p_l: theos: well, it's free to use if you have LispWorks :)
2014-07-15T14:16:25Z p_l: (i.e. there's no extra license fee for CAPI)
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2014-07-15T14:16:35Z theos: i see. thanks. i am more inclined towards gtk :S
2014-07-15T14:16:57Z eudoxia: theos: cl-gffi-gtk
2014-07-15T14:16:58Z jdz: last i heard CAPI can use GTK
2014-07-15T14:17:29Z Xach: theos: What are you making?
2014-07-15T14:17:33Z theos: p_l unfortunately, i dont have lispworks
2014-07-15T14:18:02Z theos: Xach trying to get into pure CL GUI
2014-07-15T14:18:20Z Xach: Why?
2014-07-15T14:18:24Z p_l: I'd probably go with CommonQT... GTK has been getting... bad
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2014-07-15T14:19:00Z theos: Xach there maybe money involved. i am making a finance software. so i need a gui client
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2014-07-15T14:20:33Z Guthur`: theos: well better to spend money to make money, buy a LW license
2014-07-15T14:20:48Z Xach: ah. well, it would be cool (except probably for LispWorks) if there was a high-quality, free, cross-platform CL GUI.
2014-07-15T14:21:11Z Xach: That seems like it would be very expensive to make and maintain, but maybe someone with lots of time and expertise will do it anyway.
2014-07-15T14:21:22Z Guthur`: Xach: put it on the global todo list...
2014-07-15T14:21:28Z Xach snorts
2014-07-15T14:21:52Z theos: Guthur` how much better is LW than SBCL? faster/efficient etc
2014-07-15T14:22:29Z Guthur`: I haven't compared the two, but LW is not slow, that's all i can say for certain
2014-07-15T14:22:39Z Xach: LW is a very good implementation of CL.
2014-07-15T14:22:57Z Xach: Fast compiler, fast code, good environment, good backing company.
2014-07-15T14:23:09Z Xach: Lots of interesting add-ons like CAPI and KnowledgeWorks.
2014-07-15T14:23:55Z p_l: SBCL is just the compiler, with LW you get support plus a bunch of extras like CAPI etc.
2014-07-15T14:24:12Z p_l: also, it has pretty good tree shaker and software delivery tools
2014-07-15T14:24:15Z Guthur`: LW probably has better windows support as well
2014-07-15T14:24:27Z didi: If this channel is officially logged, it should say on /topic.
2014-07-15T14:24:28Z Xach: Nice community of users, too.
2014-07-15T14:25:02Z jdz: didi: everything on the internet is logged
2014-07-15T14:25:04Z Guthur`: didi: who's official?
2014-07-15T14:25:11Z Xach: didi: Hmm, it used to say so.
2014-07-15T14:25:19Z Xach: I think, anyway.
2014-07-15T14:25:21Z didi: Xach: I think it is also a nice gesture.
2014-07-15T14:25:42Z Guthur`: i'm pretty sure it used to say so as well
2014-07-15T14:25:50Z Shinmera: It says it on the cliki at least
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2014-07-15T14:27:03Z hitecnologys: It should also say it on topic, if I remember the rules of Freenode correctly.
2014-07-15T14:27:18Z didi: hitecnologys: That too.
2014-07-15T14:27:20Z p_l: doesn't it say so on join?
2014-07-15T14:27:30Z hitecnologys: p_l: nope.
2014-07-15T14:27:35Z Xach: I don't remember seeing that, but I haven't paid close attention in a while.
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2014-07-15T14:27:50Z H4ns: can someone change the topic to include the log url please?
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2014-07-15T14:28:30Z theos: looks like only the LW enterprise edition is 64bit :/
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2014-07-15T14:29:08Z jdz: theos: yeah, they also have a marketing departament
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2014-07-15T14:29:27Z p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs: <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> |contact op if muted| New: SBCL 1.2.1, cl-launch 4.0.6, yason 0.6.6, hunchentoot 1.2.27, asdf 3.1.2
2014-07-15T14:29:49Z didi: #lisp should also consider not logging at all, but that's another story.
2014-07-15T14:30:23Z Guthur`:  didi: why?
2014-07-15T14:30:26Z H4ns: didi: no.
2014-07-15T14:30:28Z Shinmera: You're going to have to rip public logs from my cold, dead hands.
2014-07-15T14:30:30Z banjara quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2014-07-15T14:30:37Z p_l: didi: not enforceable anyway
2014-07-15T14:30:40Z didi: Guthur`: https://freenode.net/channel_guidelines.shtml
2014-07-15T14:30:53Z p_l: there are three different known logging bots, plus personal logs of many people
2014-07-15T14:31:01Z didi: Guthur`: Read the last bullet point.
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2014-07-15T14:32:02Z p_l: didi: with the change in /topic, the last bullet point is fulfilled
2014-07-15T14:32:04Z Guthur`: yeah, other than the need to put a disclosure I see nothing that i would personally agree with
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2014-07-15T14:32:17Z Guthur`: if you can accept responsibility for what you say don't say it
2014-07-15T14:32:23Z p_l: didi: that #lisp is publicly logged had been known for years
2014-07-15T14:32:23Z Guthur`: can/can't
2014-07-15T14:32:43Z Cymew: I didn't know it until yesterday, I think
2014-07-15T14:32:56Z Cymew: But, having it in #topic is good I think
2014-07-15T14:33:15Z p_l: Cymew: so now it is in /topic for greater dissemination of said knowledge
2014-07-15T14:33:29Z p_l: ehh, minion died again
2014-07-15T14:33:35Z Cymew: good
2014-07-15T14:33:43Z theos: every client is a logger basically. so it doesnt matter if 396 people have the logs or it is available on a website which nobody knows about
2014-07-15T14:34:09Z hitecnologys: Some clients have logging disabled.
2014-07-15T14:34:49Z p_l: I think theos meant it as "possible logger"
2014-07-15T14:35:06Z p_l: I don't keep logs for example, but mostly because I never bothered to set them up
2014-07-15T14:35:34Z theos: (some irc clients upload the logs to webservers too)
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2014-07-15T14:38:23Z nicdev: what happened to paste.lisp.org? i am getting bad gateway errors since last night
2014-07-15T14:39:03Z nicdev: last night EST that is
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2014-07-15T14:39:35Z p_l: might be the same thing that took out minion
2014-07-15T14:39:47Z oleo: right me too
2014-07-15T14:39:58Z oleo: it's down obviously...or blocked....
2014-07-15T14:41:45Z nicdev: if minion is down then i would say it's likely down than blocked. I think they are hosted on some related environment
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2014-07-15T14:44:01Z hitecnologys: stassats might know what happened.
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2014-07-15T14:46:57Z p_l: nicdev: same server
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2014-07-15T15:49:43Z theos: cl-cffi-gtk looks awesome! i will try to use it.
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2014-07-15T15:54:25Z abeaumont: what lib would you recommend for writing an async udp server? I was looking at cl-async but doesn't support udp, so iolib looks like the best choice... is it?
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2014-07-15T16:07:24Z scruz: hello.
2014-07-15T16:07:54Z scruz: reading “Land of Lisp” and trying to understand when cons gets useful in practice
2014-07-15T16:08:23Z H4ns: scruz: i rarely call it directly.  it is important to understand how it works, though.
2014-07-15T16:09:05Z scruz: H4ns: ok, but why, if i might ask?
2014-07-15T16:09:17Z Xach: It is a fundamental building block of lists.
2014-07-15T16:09:25Z marsam is now known as marsbot
2014-07-15T16:09:38Z Xach: It is also very occasionally helpful to scratch up a two-element storage unit.
2014-07-15T16:09:44Z drmeister: Fare: I was able to load the asdf.lisp file.    I still have to add CL:DIRECTORY to get it to work.
2014-07-15T16:09:48Z Xach: but usually it is better to abstract it more than CONS provides.
2014-07-15T16:10:35Z scruz: eh, i’ll just go along with the flow. perhaps it’ll make more sense down the line.
2014-07-15T16:10:36Z schjetne: cons can be used when making pairs for alists if backquote notation looks weird
2014-07-15T16:10:56Z Xach uses acons for that a bit
2014-07-15T16:11:03Z scruz: schjetne: you lost me. this is my first intro to any lisp
2014-07-15T16:11:25Z schjetne: Ah, sorry. I recommend Touretzky's Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation
2014-07-15T16:11:39Z schjetne: It explains concepts like cons cells very well
2014-07-15T16:11:39Z scruz has written code, on and off, for almost 16 years though
2014-07-15T16:12:26Z schjetne: The cons function makes a conc cell, and a conc cell consists of two pointers.
2014-07-15T16:12:58Z schjetne: Applying car and cdr to a cons cell gives you the first and the second pointer, respectively
2014-07-15T16:13:18Z scruz: yes, i saw that in the book
2014-07-15T16:14:32Z didi: `subst' works in a funny way to me. It not only visits list elements but also `rest'.
2014-07-15T16:14:41Z oleo: jep touretzkys is very good....
2014-07-15T16:14:57Z Xach: didi: It works on conses as trees, not as lists.
2014-07-15T16:15:09Z Xach: a tree with a left branch and right branch.
2014-07-15T16:15:24Z Xach: or a car branch and cdr branch
2014-07-15T16:15:32Z didi: Xach: hummm
2014-07-15T16:15:35Z oleo: likewise the one of stuart shapiro....
2014-07-15T16:15:45Z oleo: a modern approach or so....
2014-07-15T16:16:16Z ggole: subst is a little funny because it recurses into any part of the tree that it doesn't replace
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2014-07-15T16:16:57Z Fare: drmeister, congratulations!
2014-07-15T16:17:06Z ggole: Whereas element and container structure are disjoint in more straightforward functions like substitute
2014-07-15T16:17:10Z didi: ggole: I like that. What confuses me is that I'll get two '(b) from '((b) b).
2014-07-15T16:17:11Z Fare: the cl:directory specification is such a pile of fail...
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2014-07-15T16:17:39Z Fare: and the uiop abstractions over it are but fragile make-dos.
2014-07-15T16:17:44Z ggole: didi: not quite sure what you mean
2014-07-15T16:17:47Z drmeister: Fare: I'm taking the ecl code and writing it in C++.
2014-07-15T16:18:01Z Fare: should work.
2014-07-15T16:18:14Z drmeister: Hopefully I don't introduce more bugs.
2014-07-15T16:18:20Z Xach: didi: for a list ((B) B), the CAR is (B) and the CDR is (B).
2014-07-15T16:18:32Z didi: Xach: Right, right.
2014-07-15T16:18:37Z Fare: unhappily, iolib isn't going to become a standard replacement for the CL filesystem facilities.
2014-07-15T16:18:39Z ggole: Oh, I see
2014-07-15T16:18:41Z drmeister: asdf failed silently when DIRECTORY had an unbound fdefinition.
2014-07-15T16:18:52Z Xach: didi: Can you be more specific about the confusion?
2014-07-15T16:18:55Z drmeister: It took me a while to track down that I didn't have a DIRECTORY function yet.
2014-07-15T16:19:10Z didi: Xach: Sure. I'm trying to write a example form. One moment, please.
2014-07-15T16:19:12Z Fare: drmeister, too many ignore-errors to paper over the brittleness of using directory portably
2014-07-15T16:19:33Z drmeister: Fare: I thought it was something like that.
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2014-07-15T16:19:52Z ggole: (subst 'a '(b) '((b) b) :test #'equal) => (a . a)?
2014-07-15T16:20:04Z didi: ggole: Yeap.
2014-07-15T16:20:06Z Fare: drmeister, many implementations will issue various kinds of errors depending on things they don't expect in the filesystem, such as dangling symlinks, directories for which they lack permissions, etc., etc.
2014-07-15T16:20:08Z didi: (subst 'a 'b '((b) b) :key (lambda (x) (and (consp x) (first x))))
2014-07-15T16:20:13Z didi: ggole: ^ :^)
2014-07-15T16:20:17Z ggole: That's what Xach is referring to, yeah
2014-07-15T16:20:28Z didi: Right.
2014-07-15T16:20:43Z ggole: It's mostly confusing because of the way conses are printed.
2014-07-15T16:20:59Z Fare: it's not possibly to portably deal with any of that crap, which what more isn't well documented in any of the implementations.
2014-07-15T16:21:15Z didi: I was expecting visiting '(b) and 'b, not '(b), '(b) again, and then 'b.
2014-07-15T16:21:43Z didi: (it also recurses into the first '(b), of course)
2014-07-15T16:22:00Z drmeister: Fare: Can I give you a list of every other CL symbol that I'm missing and maybe you can point me to the ones I should implement first that ASDF depend on?
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2014-07-15T16:22:33Z ggole: View it as (cons (cons 'b nil) (cons 'b nil)) and the similarity of the structure is more clear
2014-07-15T16:22:43Z Fare: if only there were one standard specifying what happens on each OS, things would be better... "here's the FFI for Unix, here's the FFI for Windows, there you go".
2014-07-15T16:23:12Z Fare: but no, instead we have N*M different implementations of the filesystem primitives.
2014-07-15T16:23:59Z moore33: Also, we use the function CONS all the time to add an element to the front of a list: (setq l (cons 'foo l))
2014-07-15T16:23:59Z drmeister: Here's what I'm missing still:   https://gist.github.com/drmeister/12ab08614ec7f4027f8f
2014-07-15T16:24:14Z Fare: drmeister, I unhappily don't have such a list... but I suppose you can instrument your reader / INTERN / FIND-SYMBOL function to make such a list for you.
2014-07-15T16:24:22Z didi: ggole: The thing gets messy when I want to substitute lists starting with symbol X.
2014-07-15T16:24:38Z drmeister: Is there a way to get GitHub Gist to wrap long lines?
2014-07-15T16:24:44Z Fare: the ignore-errors are mostly in the filesystem parts of UIOP
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2014-07-15T16:24:57Z Fare: grep for ignore-errors
2014-07-15T16:24:58Z drmeister: I guess one can click "Raw"
2014-07-15T16:25:23Z drmeister: I see - look for ignore-errors and anything inside of it will fail silently.
2014-07-15T16:25:23Z ggole: didi: you might be running into a cons-interpretation problem
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2014-07-15T16:25:34Z didi: ggole: It might be as well.
2014-07-15T16:25:45Z oleo: so much cons-piracy!
2014-07-15T16:25:47Z oleo: lol
2014-07-15T16:25:53Z ggole: If you want to make a tree that contains conses, the structure of the container and the elements is hard (or even impossible) to distinguish
2014-07-15T16:26:29Z didi: ggole: Well, I'm writing http://pastebin.kde.org/ppnncsgp6/rdafit
2014-07-15T16:26:52Z didi: ggole: It makes the distinguish I want.
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2014-07-15T16:30:14Z ggole: Really? How would you construct a tree that contained conses? They would be interpreted by the last clause as part of the tree structure.
2014-07-15T16:30:39Z scruz: thanks, everyone.
2014-07-15T16:30:43Z scruz: have to go now.
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2014-07-15T16:30:49Z didi: ggole: Maybe we are interpreting things differently?
2014-07-15T16:31:07Z ggole: Very possible.
2014-07-15T16:33:18Z oleo: what do you mean by conses ? like (a . c) ?
2014-07-15T16:33:38Z didi: Yeah. I was first interested in harvesting expressions out of a xml turned into a sexp.
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2014-07-15T16:36:47Z didi: So, if I want, say every (foo ...) list, going on `rest' for (bar foo ...) is a problem to me.
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2014-07-15T16:38:30Z ggole: You'll have to write your own traversal that respects those rules, then
2014-07-15T16:39:13Z didi: It seems like it.
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2014-07-15T16:49:48Z Shinmera: If you want to collect information from XML documents easily, lQuery is a good bet.
2014-07-15T16:50:09Z oGMo: didi: you might look at https://github.com/rpav/conspath but i don't know if it does everything you want
2014-07-15T16:50:34Z oGMo: didi: but it's sortof like xpath for conses
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2014-07-15T16:51:25Z didi: oGMo: Cool, thanks.
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2014-07-15T16:52:33Z didi: Shinmera: Thanks.
2014-07-15T16:53:15Z Shinmera: Maybe I should invest the time to write a transformer from Plump-DOM to sexps.
2014-07-15T16:53:16Z oGMo: i was actually converting xml to conses with one of the lisp xml parsers and then using conspath to extract data
2014-07-15T16:54:15Z oGMo: CXML with the xmls builder apparently
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2014-07-15T17:08:02Z gabriel_laddel: What is the meaning of '%' when prefixed to a symbol eg, in SBCL the symbol `%end-of-the-world' in `handling-end-of-the-world'?
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2014-07-15T17:08:28Z Shinmera: It is usually used to signify that it is 'private'
2014-07-15T17:08:39Z gabriel_laddel: Thank you.
2014-07-15T17:08:40Z Shinmera: Of course it's no more private than any other unexported symbol
2014-07-15T17:09:22Z gabriel_laddel: Shinmera: Is there a 'CL style guide' that specifies this? I couldn't find one.
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2014-07-15T17:09:40Z Shinmera: There are multiple guides but no official one
2014-07-15T17:09:43Z jasom: gabriel_laddel: I also see it when there is an internal helper function (so foo would be a trivial wrapper around %foo; this happens when you also have a function that is like-foo-only-different that also calls %foo slightly differently)
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2014-07-15T17:15:00Z jdoolin: good day
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2014-07-15T17:15:52Z jasom: jdoolin: do you wish me a good day, or mean that it is a good day whether I want it or not; or that you feel good this day; or that it is a day to be good on?
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2014-07-15T17:16:53Z Xach shudders
2014-07-15T17:17:19Z jdoolin: it's good whether you want it or not.  You will accept its goodness with humility
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2014-07-15T17:17:40Z didi: (1+ jasom)
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2014-07-15T17:18:16Z Shinmera: simple-type-error
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2014-07-15T17:19:00Z jdoolin: getting my feet wet with macros.  I've defined one that takes a string as an argument and I'm trying to call it within a do-list.  SBCL is telling me my variable is defined but not used, and apparently the macro is expanding with the symbol but not its value
2014-07-15T17:19:13Z jasom: jdoolin: that's how macros work
2014-07-15T17:19:16Z Shinmera: that's what macros do
2014-07-15T17:19:49Z phadthai: may the hair on your toes never fall out
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2014-07-15T17:20:42Z jasom: jdoolin: macros take their arguments unevaluated, and then their return value is used in place of the macro form.
2014-07-15T17:21:10Z jdoolin: ok, I keep forgetting that arguments aren't evaluated
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2014-07-15T17:22:02Z jdoolin: so could I use a backquoted form to call the macro on a list of strings?
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2014-07-15T17:23:02Z jdoolin: sorry if my terminology is inaccurate too.  It's been a while since I've worked with Lisp
2014-07-15T17:23:12Z jasom: jdoolin: step back for a minute.  Write down the code you want to write, and then write down the code you want the macro to expand that code to.
2014-07-15T17:23:14Z Shinmera: If it takes a string why is it a macro
2014-07-15T17:23:22Z Shinmera: Shouldn't it be a function?
2014-07-15T17:23:27Z jasom: jdoolin: once you've done that, then you will know what to write.
2014-07-15T17:23:34Z jdoolin: hm, ok
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2014-07-15T17:24:20Z jdoolin: to both statements, in fact.  I'm now questioning whether or not it *does* need to be a macro
2014-07-15T17:25:45Z jasom: jdoolin: In real life you only write macros once you realize a function can't work.  To learn macros, you may need some contrived examples (which is fine, it's just not realistic, just like you will probably never write a function to calculate fibonacci numbers unless you are learning recursion).
2014-07-15T17:27:38Z jdoolin: ok, I'll rethink this a bit
2014-07-15T17:27:59Z jdoolin: I've read that attempting to use a macro when a function can still get it done can be a stumbling block
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2014-07-15T17:35:41Z jdoolin: the macro I wrote creates a defun.  It builds the name of the function and much of the code within it from the string.  So I think it still has to be a macro, but perhaps using a string is lame and I could be doing it a better way
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2014-07-15T17:36:48Z ggole: You parse information out of the string?
2014-07-15T17:37:08Z ggole: It would probably be easier and cleaner to pass it in as sexps
2014-07-15T17:39:51Z jdoolin: it concatenates postfixes to the string.  There are functions already defined with names such as foo-x, foo-y, foo-z.  So I'd pass it the string "foo" and the macro builds a defun that will expand to calls to "foo-x" and so on, so I was using strings to concatenate the "-x", etc.  Is there a more elegant way?
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2014-07-15T17:40:56Z ggole: You can pass in a symbol and add suffixes to the symbol's name
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2014-07-15T17:41:42Z jdoolin: nice, how does one do that?
2014-07-15T17:42:03Z ggole: (symbol-name ...) will get you the name
2014-07-15T17:42:04Z jasom: jdoolin: symbol-name gets you the name as a string
2014-07-15T17:42:18Z jasom: jdoolin: intern will get you a symbol from a string
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2014-07-15T17:43:09Z phadthai: just be careful about case if you don't want to end up with mixed-case symbols
2014-07-15T17:43:17Z jdoolin: awesome, I didn't see symbol-name.  I was using intern to go from my concatenated strings to the methods I wanted to call
2014-07-15T17:43:23Z jasom: jdoolin: well intern gives you an interned symbol from a string, but you don't want an uninterned symbol for a defun I'm guessing.
2014-07-15T17:43:28Z jdoolin: right
2014-07-15T17:44:50Z Xach: You can also use find-symbol if the symbols exist already.
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2014-07-15T17:47:11Z ggole: Hmm, what's the little dance you do to get the right case again? Something like (intern (concatenate 'string (symbol-name ...) (symbol-name '-x)))
2014-07-15T17:48:21Z jdoolin: yeah, exactly that except there's a string-upcase in there to avoid mixed case symbols
2014-07-15T17:49:25Z jasom: ggole: you probably want #:x
2014-07-15T17:50:05Z phadthai: (or "-X")
2014-07-15T17:50:07Z jasom: rather '#:-x
2014-07-15T17:50:54Z ggole: Wouldn't "-X" be wrong in a lowercase by default implementation?
2014-07-15T17:51:22Z phadthai: probably, so would string-upcase
2014-07-15T17:51:35Z jasom: ggole: no such thing as a lowercase by default implementation of common lisp.
2014-07-15T17:51:48Z phadthai: I know of no such implementation though in practice
2014-07-15T17:52:01Z jasom: ggole: if it were lowercase by default, it would not be conforming.
2014-07-15T17:53:19Z ggole: Yeah, guess I'm thinking of people who set readtable-case
2014-07-15T17:54:25Z Shinmera: Those are asking for trouble imo
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2014-07-15T17:55:07Z jdoolin: the -x part is a postfix for a function, so (symbol-name '-x) should be sufficient, unless there's something else possible I'm not aware of
2014-07-15T17:55:15Z jasom: does asdf reset the readtable for systems now?  I recall there was discussion about doing that.
2014-07-15T17:55:28Z phadthai: "they like to abuse their god powers on the universe" :)
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2014-07-15T17:55:43Z jdoolin: so (concatenate 'string (symbol-name root) (symbol-name postfix)) would get what I'm after
2014-07-15T17:55:49Z jasom: jdoolin: only downside with that is you now have a symbol named "-X" in your package.
2014-07-15T17:56:00Z jasom: '#:-x will not intern the symbol.
2014-07-15T17:56:07Z jdoolin: ah, nice
2014-07-15T17:56:11Z jdoolin: thanks
2014-07-15T17:56:16Z Shinmera: What's wrong with format (format NIL "~a-X" symbol)
2014-07-15T17:56:20Z ggole: Yeah, sloppy of me
2014-07-15T17:56:54Z jasom: Shinmera: nothing, that's what I would do, and if someone modified the readtable before loading me, then they can deal with the issues.
2014-07-15T17:57:28Z jasom: but if I wanted to be sensitive to such sneaky bastards, then I would use (symbol-name '#:-x)
2014-07-15T17:57:29Z Shinmera: jasom: I was asking a rhetorical question
2014-07-15T17:57:51Z ggole: (format 'symbol "~a-x" ...) would be nice
2014-07-15T17:58:03Z ggole: Not that format needs to be any larger.
2014-07-15T17:58:32Z phadthai: a symbol-interning stream heh
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2014-07-15T18:05:08Z jdoolin: ok, I rewrote it to use symbols instead of strings. it's working fine and expanding to the defun I'm after
2014-07-15T18:05:23Z eudoxia: is cl-project broken for anyone else in the latest quicklisp dist?
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2014-07-15T18:15:55Z jdoolin: so now that the macro expands into the proper defun, how can I loop through a list of symbols and apply the macro to each one?
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2014-07-15T18:17:12Z Shinmera: by making another macro
2014-07-15T18:17:32Z jdoolin: ok, that's what i thought, but that's also where I'm getting the "variable defined but never used" error
2014-07-15T18:18:17Z Shinmera: (defmacro %define-things (&rest names) `(progn ,@(loop for name in names collect `(my-macro ,name))))
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2014-07-15T18:20:07Z jdoolin: OH, wait!  I was putting the backquoted expression within the loop instead of vice versa
2014-07-15T18:20:18Z jdoolin: and that makes no sense
2014-07-15T18:20:25Z jdoolin: thanks
2014-07-15T18:20:39Z jdoolin: now, is that % sign a convention I don't know about?
2014-07-15T18:20:54Z oGMo: generally "this is really, really internal"
2014-07-15T18:20:55Z Shinmera: Convention for private things or helper things
2014-07-15T18:21:34Z Shinmera: This question has come up a bunch of times in the last few days, what's up with that
2014-07-15T18:21:37Z oGMo: and %% for even more
2014-07-15T18:21:46Z Shinmera: four % programmer
2014-07-15T18:21:48Z Shinmera: :V
2014-07-15T18:21:54Z oGMo: hehe
2014-07-15T18:22:13Z jdoolin: I've yet to see it any of the literature I've read
2014-07-15T18:22:17Z oGMo: 1% code, 2% code, "whole" code
2014-07-15T18:22:25Z jdoolin: haha
2014-07-15T18:22:31Z oGMo: jdoolin: you only see it reading actual code ... you should read more actual code
2014-07-15T18:22:33Z phadthai: Shinmera: Lisp users might be pupulating :)
2014-07-15T18:22:42Z jdoolin: oGMo: sounds like it
2014-07-15T18:22:58Z jdoolin: what would "skim" code be?
2014-07-15T18:23:02Z Shinmera: phadthai: Even if I would welcome that a lot, I think it's more down to random clustering
2014-07-15T18:23:09Z oGMo: M-. a function when you want to know how it works is a good place to start
2014-07-15T18:23:28Z oGMo: jdoolin: no-%!
2014-07-15T18:24:26Z phadthai: s/pupulating/populating/
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2014-07-15T18:26:01Z jdoolin: I'm just glad that my instincs were correct in that I needed two macros to do what I wanted to do
2014-07-15T18:26:54Z Shinmera: Well. You could do it with eval.
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2014-07-15T18:29:08Z Shinmera: if for some reason you'd hate a helper macro and would rather want gross eval fumbling
2014-07-15T18:29:11Z eudoxia: i'm probably just being stupid, but has anyone had problems loading clack/crane/anything that uses cl-syntax?
2014-07-15T18:29:39Z Shinmera: eudoxia: clack quickloads fine here
2014-07-15T18:30:44Z eudoxia: Shinmera: is that on the latest dist?
2014-07-15T18:30:55Z Shinmera: eudoxia: should be, let me check
2014-07-15T18:31:21Z Shinmera: apparently not, hold on.
2014-07-15T18:32:14Z Shinmera: I should finally get around to setting up my minimal vm to test various lisp implementations and clean loading and all that crud
2014-07-15T18:32:32Z Shinmera: eudoxia: still loads fine
2014-07-15T18:32:46Z eudoxia: Shinmera: https://github.com/eudoxia0/crane/blob/master/Vagrantfile
2014-07-15T18:33:02Z eudoxia: huh, are you on SBCL or CCL (and if SBCL which one)?
2014-07-15T18:33:09Z Shinmera: SBCL, 1.2.0
2014-07-15T18:33:30Z Shinmera: eudoxia: what am I supposed to do with that file?
2014-07-15T18:34:09Z eudoxia: Shinmera: it sets up a Vagrant VM, and a bunch of Lisp impls
2014-07-15T18:34:28Z eudoxia: i use it to test Crane
2014-07-15T18:34:37Z Shinmera: Alright?
2014-07-15T18:35:05Z eudoxia: well you wanted a VM with lisp implementations so there it is
2014-07-15T18:35:34Z Shinmera: I want an arch system set up to my tastes
2014-07-15T18:35:47Z Shinmera: but anyway
2014-07-15T18:36:23Z eudoxia: well, anyways, i have SBCL 1.2.0 and the latest dist and i'm getting a weird readtable error
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2014-07-15T18:36:35Z eudoxia: i'll try wiping the quicklisp dir or something
2014-07-15T18:36:52Z eudoxia Xach's wallet emits a brief "ouch"
2014-07-15T18:36:55Z Shinmera: Do you have a special image or other startup things that might interfere?
2014-07-15T18:37:02Z eudoxia: nope
2014-07-15T18:37:13Z Shinmera: Hm.
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2014-07-15T18:44:33Z Shinmera-: eudoxia: Loads on a completely fresh install of sbcl 1.2.0 and empty quicklisp.
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2014-07-15T18:45:52Z eudoxia: :/
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2014-07-15T18:46:09Z eudoxia: thanks. i'm gonna see if it's SBCL's core file or something.
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2014-07-15T19:02:56Z pjb: InvalidCo: use (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp.stepper) (cl-stepper:step (+ 3 4 (* 5 6 (/ 7 8))) :trace)
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2014-07-15T19:06:20Z pjb: minion: memo for joe-w-bimedina: the function format takes a NIL, T or a string with a fill pointer or stream.  So not strictly a boolean, but it makes a difference between T and a string or a stream.  A few other functions do too.
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2014-07-15T19:08:39Z Shinmera: pjb: that's still not a boolean type requirement like he wanted for whatever reason.
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2014-07-15T19:15:11Z jasom: Are there any programming books for beginners that use common lisp?
2014-07-15T19:16:01Z Shinmera: jasom: I haven't read Land of Lisp but apparently that's more for beginners than PCL?
2014-07-15T19:16:06Z phadthai: A Gentle Introduction To Symbolic Computation begins with a pretty light introduction
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2014-07-15T19:17:06Z _death: ANSI Common Lisp
2014-07-15T19:17:37Z jasom: _death: I paged through that at a bookstore and IIRC it assumed general knowledge of programming
2014-07-15T19:17:55Z eudoxia: yes, Gentle Introduction assumes nothing
2014-07-15T19:18:03Z eudoxia: it starts out with this cute simple graphs
2014-07-15T19:18:30Z jasom: ah, the preface specifically says an audience is "students taking their first programming course"
2014-07-15T19:18:35Z _death: jasom: ah, maybe I misunderstood the unqualified "beginners"
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2014-07-15T19:19:16Z phadthai: hmm I seem to remember that there was an effort for a CL translation of SICP, I'm not sure if it ever really happened
2014-07-15T19:19:35Z jasom: http://www.amazon.com/Learning-Program-C-Thomas-Plum/dp/0911537082/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1405451741&sr=8-1&keywords=%22learning+to+program+in+C%22+thomas+plum <-- that was my first programming book; obviously not in lisp though.
2014-07-15T19:19:38Z phadthai: but SICP is also good as a CS introduction, just that it's scheme
2014-07-15T19:19:44Z phadthai: there are video lectures even
2014-07-15T19:20:24Z jasom: the touretzkey looks good.  IIRC SICP assumes knowledge of 1st semester calculus, which isn't a dealbreaker but does set a certain bar.
2014-07-15T19:22:29Z _death: think mine was some Logo book :)
2014-07-15T19:22:33Z _death: http://www.dotbooks.co.il/sitefiles/images/apr/file00151951.jpg
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2014-07-15T19:23:06Z jasom: I had entered in BASIC listings line by line and made some tweaks, but that was it before the Thomas Plum book.
2014-07-15T19:23:17Z _death: yeah had those too
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2014-07-15T19:33:48Z atgreen: b#gc
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2014-07-15T19:37:36Z moore33: The Scheme in SICP is quite lispy.
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2014-07-15T19:45:22Z francogrex: people were stunned with this: http://pastebin.com/XEFcgt5G
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2014-07-15T19:45:36Z jasom: moore33: Same with Lisp In Small Pieces (at least so far)
2014-07-15T19:46:25Z jasom: francogrex: who were stunned with it?
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2014-07-15T19:46:45Z jasom: francogrex: also, wont a GC throw a wrench in the works?
2014-07-15T19:47:02Z francogrex: colleagues
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2014-07-15T19:49:42Z francogrex: well fadd st,st(1) is all that's needed to show for this but nice how I can get gdb to attach and disassemble isn't it?
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2014-07-15T19:50:23Z Shinmera: It's really annoying that the (to me) more impressive features of lisp are really hard to explain to people who aren't familiar with it. As in, it's near impossible to convey why they're so great.
2014-07-15T19:51:05Z jasom: Shinmera: to me the best explanation so far is by a perl hacker talking about setf
2014-07-15T19:51:16Z Shinmera: jasom: that is a good one, indeed
2014-07-15T19:51:17Z Xach: Best to do it via videoblogs from atop your giant pile of Lisp-powered money
2014-07-15T19:51:24Z Shinmera: jasom: But I meant explaining it in person without referring to long articles
2014-07-15T19:51:56Z Shinmera: jasom: I tried to do that with a friend of mine but he kept on insisting that he couldn't see what makes it more attractive than javascript.
2014-07-15T19:53:38Z jasom: Shinmera: besides the obvious flaws in javascript, the metaprogramming is a big win, and you can admit "you hardly ever need these, but when you do you're glad to have it" if he responds with "why is it a big deal if you hardly ever need it" ask him if he wears a seatbelt :P
2014-07-15T19:54:11Z Shinmera: jasom: Believe me I tried to illustrate the advantages for quite a while but I guess he's a lost cause
2014-07-15T19:54:41Z Shinmera: jasom: The fact that he kept on saying the parens are gross is probably only further condemning him.
2014-07-15T19:54:42Z jasom: but to a certain extent, it's a confluence of features that are otherwise non-unique that I find to be a good local maximum
2014-07-15T19:56:45Z jasom: I get python, and to a certain extent C programmers saying parens are gross.  I don't get it from javascript programmers where functions regularly end with })})})}))})
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2014-07-15T19:57:12Z jasom: with the occasional .bind thrown in the middle for good measure
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2014-07-15T19:57:15Z Shinmera: Yeah. I don't know.
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2014-07-15T20:00:53Z Krystof: tip: if someone says it's about the parentheses, it's probably not really about the parentheses
2014-07-15T20:01:01Z Krystof: it might well be "I don't have time to think about this" instead
2014-07-15T20:01:06Z Shinmera: I know
2014-07-15T20:01:24Z Shinmera: It's a strong indicator that they don't want to be convinced
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2014-07-15T20:02:36Z francogrex: they don't need to be convinced. it's a selection process
2014-07-15T20:02:46Z oleo: lol
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2014-07-15T20:02:58Z oleo: how true
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2014-07-15T20:04:31Z oleo: they didn't get beyond that phase you know.....
2014-07-15T20:05:33Z oleo: doesn't matter with what you structure code as long as you know how to structure....
2014-07-15T20:05:52Z oleo: and structure for what......
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2014-07-15T20:19:53Z jasom: Krystof: I disagree; syntax matters and different syntax is a bar to learning a new language
2014-07-15T20:20:46Z jasom: Just like the fact that C-c is not copy really is a bar to picking up emacs when every other program you have ever used uses that for copy.
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2014-07-15T20:55:18Z didi`: I'm writing an ASDF system to test my system, as ASDF's manual suggests. Should I also define a package for my tests? If that's so, how can I avoid having to write `foo::' to test internal symbols?
2014-07-15T20:56:23Z Xach: There are many options.
2014-07-15T20:56:32Z Xach: One option: you can import the symbols
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2014-07-15T20:58:01Z didi`: Xach: oic. Using `:import-from'. It could also help me listing the symbols I'm currently testing.
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2014-07-15T20:58:56Z Xach: You could also make an intermediate package that imports the symbols in question and re-exports them, then :use it
2014-07-15T20:59:04Z Xach: so many options
2014-07-15T20:59:09Z didi`: :-)
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2014-07-15T22:17:17Z jdoolin: eh, turns out I'm still stuck but very close to what I'm looking for.  as I mentioned before, I have two macros going on.  One that generates a defun using symbols and another that loops through a list of symbols and runs the macro that will create a defun for each
2014-07-15T22:18:06Z jdoolin: so (make-functions foo bar) will create two functions called 'foo' and 'bar'.  This works fine if I use a test macro that just creates functions that return t
2014-07-15T22:18:42Z jdoolin: problem is I need to go from those symbols to something I can use with (symbol-name ...)
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2014-07-15T22:19:52Z jdoolin: I had a helper function that was doing the (intern (concatenate 'string (symbol-name name) (symbol-name postfix))) business
2014-07-15T22:20:15Z jdoolin: works great if I pass it 'foo or 'bar, but I don't know how to get the macro to do that
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2014-07-15T22:24:54Z edgar-rft: hint: 'foo = (quote foo)
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2014-07-15T22:27:27Z Xach: jdoolin: your macro gets those as arguments. it can pass them to the helper.
2014-07-15T22:27:39Z Xach: jdoolin: of course, the helper has to be defined in time for the macro to see it...
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2014-07-15T23:23:48Z bcoburn`_h: probably a silly question, but:  why does calling the function + with no arguments return 0, but calling the function - with no arguments give an error?  (I sortof expect there is a good reason, just curious what it might be)
2014-07-15T23:24:54Z PuercoPop: I imagine it is because there is an unary operation - but no such operation +
2014-07-15T23:25:32Z jdoolin: the problem is that when I call the helper, it's trying to evaluate the symbol
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2014-07-15T23:26:12Z jdoolin: (get-func 'foo '#:-x) works (get-func foo '#:-x) is what's being called by the macro
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2014-07-15T23:27:06Z Zhivago: bcoburn: The sum of no numbers is zero.
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2014-07-15T23:27:24Z Zhivago: You cannot subtract no numbers.
2014-07-15T23:27:47Z jsnell: I don't think that's it
2014-07-15T23:27:57Z jdoolin: let's see if I can use quote to fix it...
2014-07-15T23:28:02Z Zhivago: Probably, given (- x)
2014-07-15T23:28:08Z jdoolin: I had tried that earlier, but perhaps not in the correct place
2014-07-15T23:28:09Z jsnell: after all, (*) => 0
2014-07-15T23:28:15Z jsnell: => 1
2014-07-15T23:28:37Z jsnell: but the product of "no numbers" is hardly defined as 1
2014-07-15T23:29:21Z jdoolin: haHA!  quote did it, I just needed to use it in the macro
2014-07-15T23:29:37Z jdoolin: everything works now.  I feel like I'm exercising muscles I never knew I had
2014-07-15T23:29:43Z jsnell: isn't it just about the identity element not being relevant for a non-commutative operation?
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2014-07-15T23:32:42Z bcoburn`: that seems like a reasonable explanation, thanks :)
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2014-07-16T00:41:15Z drmeister: Is there any accepted convention for extended special forms for embedding native code or byte-code within regular common lisp code?
2014-07-16T00:42:04Z drmeister: ECL has C-INLINE.
2014-07-16T00:42:23Z drmeister: I guess INLINE is sort of what I'm looking for.
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2014-07-16T00:46:20Z drmeister: I'm experimenting with my compiler to generate code that uses C/C++ varargs rather than my crazy homebrew calling convention.
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2014-07-16T00:48:42Z drmeister: Inspired by Movitz I'm experimenting with a calling convention that looks like (object::closed_env, int::numargs, object::arg1 object::arg2 object::arg3 object::... )   It passes the closed over environment in the first argument, the number of following arguments and then three hard coded arguments followed by a variadic argument list.
2014-07-16T00:49:30Z drmeister: Passing three arguments (potentially in registers) followed by a varargs list is almost twice as fast as just passing a varargs list.
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2014-07-16T00:53:44Z Xach: nice
2014-07-16T00:53:49Z Xach: go movitz!
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2014-07-16T00:57:54Z dto: what is (are) the longest symbol name(s) in CL?
2014-07-16T00:58:07Z dto: in mean in COMMON-LISP-USER
2014-07-16T00:58:27Z Bike: in common-lisp, let's see
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2014-07-16T00:59:39Z Bike: LEAST-POSITIVE-NORMALIZED-DOUBLE-FLOAT
2014-07-16T01:00:38Z dto: does that have ** earmuffs?
2014-07-16T01:00:51Z Bike: No, it's constant.
2014-07-16T01:01:05Z dto: interesting.
2014-07-16T01:01:07Z dto: thanks Bike.
2014-07-16T01:01:20Z Bike: for reference: (first (sort (loop for x being the symbols of :cl collect x) #'> :key (lambda (s) (length (symbol-name s)))))
2014-07-16T01:01:34Z dto: wow.
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2014-07-16T01:01:54Z Bike: longest function name is UPDATE-INSTANCE-FOR-REDEFINED-CLASS. you get the idea
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2014-07-16T01:02:24Z didi`: It's interesting that LOOP has a keyword for packages.
2014-07-16T01:02:32Z didi`: I never think much about them.
2014-07-16T01:02:40Z dto: yeah i did just notice that
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2014-07-16T01:03:57Z Bike: jsnell: i've never seen the empty product defined as other than one. the fundamental theorem of arithmetic relies on that.
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2014-07-16T01:23:50Z didi`: CLHS says that package names are strings but I can use uninterned symbols, for example. Weird.
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2014-07-16T01:25:52Z Bike: that's using it as a string designator. the actual package name (try package-name) will be a string
2014-07-16T01:27:23Z didi`: Bike: I noticed that I get into trouble if I use lower case strings when referring to packages. I'm guessing it's part of the case conversion stuff.
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2014-07-16T01:28:15Z Bike: yeah. of the symbol you named the package with, particularly.
2014-07-16T01:28:36Z didi`: Cool.
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2014-07-16T01:33:01Z drmeister: It turns out that INLINE is a lousy choice for a new special operator given that it's a declaration.
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2014-07-16T01:37:24Z Bike: why, yes
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2014-07-16T03:26:20Z drmeister: Rudimentary varargs with llvm working: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/aeb993c9dadb2936caef
2014-07-16T03:29:05Z drmeister: Wait - 8 calls to irc-create-varargs-call and 48 function calls generated.  The arithmetic doesn't quite work out...
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2014-07-16T03:32:33Z drmeister: Hmm... it's not happening anymore - I must have screwed up the cut-and-paste of the output.
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2014-07-16T04:36:44Z theos: does quicklisp have cffi-gtk?
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2014-07-16T04:38:16Z Bike: It has "gio-cffi", pointing at "gtk-cffi-20140316-git"
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2014-07-16T04:43:04Z theos: hmm for some reason i get an error "The name "GTK" does not designate any package." when i (:use :gtk)
2014-07-16T04:43:26Z joe-w-bimedina: in uiop is there a way to test for a trailing backslash. If someone enters this path into uiop:directory-files: "/home/w/Documents/English/Fnt/Sample063/Untitled Folder" it returns a list of the files in "/home/w/Documents/English/Fnt/Sample063/"  ...If I could make someone enter a backslash or error if they didn't, my programs operation would be cleaner because my resultant code would only deal with precise pathnames
2014-07-16T04:43:37Z Bike: theos: i'd check the system to see what packages it defines.
2014-07-16T04:43:45Z Bike: joe-w-bimedina: that's a forward slash.
2014-07-16T04:43:56Z Bike: and there's some uiop function to ensure a diretcory.
2014-07-16T04:44:01Z theos: Bike ok thanks.
2014-07-16T04:44:04Z joe-w-bimedina: crap..used to windows...i meant forward
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2014-07-16T04:44:31Z joe-w-bimedina: like which ones?
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2014-07-16T04:45:25Z Bike: https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/c9c9cc3376bf3606260cef722efb3607602269f4/uiop/pathname.lisp#L317-L333
2014-07-16T04:45:29Z Bike: That one.
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2014-07-16T04:56:36Z drmeister: Bike: How did you highlight that code in github? is it one of those digits in the URL?
2014-07-16T04:56:47Z Bike: It's the #L317-L333, yeah.
2014-07-16T04:56:56Z drmeister: Got it - nice.
2014-07-16T04:56:57Z Bike: (the hex is just the commit)
2014-07-16T04:57:10Z Bike: You can just click on the line numbers, though. and use ctrl and shift to select multiple lines that way.
2014-07-16T04:57:22Z Bike: er, just shift.
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2014-07-16T05:07:08Z theos: looks like gio-cffi is different from cffi-gtk. there is no gtk package anywhere
2014-07-16T05:07:26Z theos: or i am doing it wrong
2014-07-16T05:08:21Z Bike: well, if you want to look yourself, just do (ql:system-apropos "gtk")
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2014-07-16T05:10:38Z theos: i did. and gio-cffi loads the same packages as needed by cffi-gtk. but it cant find :gtk. maybe it has a different name and i dont know how to find it
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2014-07-16T05:12:33Z theos: i am trying this example out http://www.crategus.com/books/cl-gtk/gtk-tutorial_2.html#example_002dsimple_002dwindow
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2014-07-16T05:18:26Z drmeister: Lets say you were generating code for a Common Lisp function application for a function bound to a global symbol?.    How would you do it?   Given the symbol I would 1) Use the symbol to get the function pointer 2) call the function pointer using a standard calling convention like fn(int nargs, ... ).
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2014-07-16T05:19:45Z Bike: pretty much.
2014-07-16T05:20:09Z drmeister: If it's a closure the function you call would call an inner function with the closed over environment fn_inner(env, int nargs, ...)
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2014-07-16T05:21:16Z drmeister: The first thing each function would do is take the arguments and bind the ones that need to be bound.
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2014-07-16T05:22:50Z drmeister: Just checking  - this is what I do now.  I'm about to re-re-re-do it to use varargs.   Now that I have a garbage collector it's easier to to pass arguments in registers and varargs.
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2014-07-16T06:29:41Z theos: gdk-cffi is defined but i still get the same error :/
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2014-07-16T07:39:22Z byte48: hi all good day, i'm biologist and I have 25 years old, I'm not a programmer but reading about languajes programing i found Lisp, but is a good idea learn Lisp ? my first languaje
2014-07-16T07:39:46Z byte48: really i know a little programing
2014-07-16T07:40:31Z byte48: lisp is very amazing and broad, caught my attention
2014-07-16T07:41:31Z byte48: what would be your recommendation?, learn Lisp right now? or not?
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2014-07-16T07:45:55Z samebchase: byte48: sure. You can learn Lisp anytime
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2014-07-16T07:46:51Z Adeon: under what circumstances would #lisp tell you to not learn lisp
2014-07-16T07:47:35Z byte48: samebchase: fine, thanks!
2014-07-16T07:47:55Z samebchase: byte48: you can read http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/index.html or http://lisperati.com/casting.html
2014-07-16T07:47:58Z samebchase: to get started
2014-07-16T07:47:58Z theos: Adeon those circumstances have yet to come
2014-07-16T07:48:15Z Subfusc: byte48: I would recommend buying a book on beginner programming for bioinformatics regardless of language if that is the main purpose of you teaching yourself to program.
2014-07-16T07:48:46Z theos: byte48 get "ansi common lisp" by paul graham.
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2014-07-16T07:50:07Z byte48: wow!, fine thanks for the answers!
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2014-07-16T07:50:27Z byte48: go, read right now lisp
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2014-07-16T07:51:01Z hitecnologys: In fact, you don't really need to know much programming (especially, learn Lisp) to do bioinformatics. There are tons of tools already made like EMBOSS, Ugene and other stuff you can simply google.
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2014-07-16T07:52:12Z samebchase: byte48: a good way to learn how to program is to write a lot of exercises, so as you start reading, try writing some programs as well
2014-07-16T07:52:40Z Subfusc: hitecnologys: some glueing is always practical.
2014-07-16T07:52:41Z byte48: yes, you have the reason, but i learn a languaje for passion and next aplicate for bioinformatics and others things
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2014-07-16T07:53:07Z byte48: samebchase: oki!, thanks
2014-07-16T07:53:35Z samebchase: byte48: if you get stuck with anything in Lisp, you can ask here for help
2014-07-16T07:54:34Z byte48: samebchase: thanks you! :) very much!
2014-07-16T07:54:54Z hitecnologys: Subfusc: sure thing, but I'd rather not learn programming before learning the actual thing.
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2014-07-16T07:55:13Z byte48: fine, reading Lisp right now!
2014-07-16T07:55:24Z Subfusc: hitecnologys: no, I agree there. But it doesn't seem like #lisp agrees
2014-07-16T07:55:25Z Subfusc: :P
2014-07-16T07:55:41Z hitecnologys: byte48: just try not asking about every single thing like some people do.
2014-07-16T07:56:09Z hitecnologys: Subfusc: I see.
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2014-07-16T07:57:42Z byte48: hitecnologys: oki, i learn very hard and search, search and search, next asking
2014-07-16T07:58:39Z byte48: fine, good day, and thanks egain
2014-07-16T07:59:21Z theos: byte48 you can read http://www.amazon.com/Principles-Biomedical-Informatics-Ira-Kalet/dp/0123694388 . It starts with basic lisp and then moves on with examples
2014-07-16T07:59:38Z theos: there is a second edition too but i dont know how much lisp it has
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2014-07-16T08:02:15Z theos: but the description says "As in the first edition, it includes many worked example programs in Common LISP, the most powerful and accessible modern language for advanced biomedical concept representation and manipulation."
2014-07-16T08:02:16Z byte48: theos: oh fine, thank you so much!
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2014-07-16T08:18:44Z schjetne: theos: nice link, I think I'll pass this on to a biologist I know, whom I naively pointed towards R and Python.
2014-07-16T08:19:04Z theos: schjetne hurry up! :)
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2014-07-16T08:21:26Z theos: there are awesome books on almost all subjects where CL is used for examples. some even teach you CL basics
2014-07-16T08:23:00Z schjetne: I'll mention Touretzky too, it's my go-to for people who are new to programming
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2014-07-16T08:25:03Z PuercoPop: There is this biological debugger too: https://code.google.com/p/biohacker/
2014-07-16T08:25:32Z theos: is it written in CL?
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2014-07-16T08:28:23Z theos: ah! it is indeed in lisp. awesome!
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2014-07-16T08:30:54Z PuercoPop: yeah, the author was applying what they learned in this book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0262061570/
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2014-07-16T08:35:52Z theos: PuercoPop THAT is a really good book. unfortunately, i couldnt find it in my local libraries. but i will keep looking!
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2014-07-16T08:41:12Z schjetne: I could use some pointers on natural language processing for turning user search queries into meaningful database queries
2014-07-16T08:41:39Z schjetne: I hate filling out "advanced search" forms and I assume I'm not alone
2014-07-16T08:43:15Z hitecnologys: schjetne: yes, you aren't.
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2014-07-16T08:46:00Z schjetne: Normally I'd just create a small embedded DSL, and explain everything in the manual, but the trend is towards software where the user never consults the manual
2014-07-16T08:47:56Z joe-w-bimedina_:   I have all the code that makes up my Mat class at this link: https://gist.github.com/  and I was wondering if there was some sort of programming trickery I can use to call the define-foreign-type  by the same name as the defclass because I am actually wrapping the OpenCV "Mat" type and  it would be nice if my types had the same name, now when I run type-of on a MAT object I get CV-MAT for instance
2014-07-16T08:47:57Z PuercoPop: After I am done with my current batch I plan to order it from amazon. The local libraries here suck.
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2014-07-16T08:50:53Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina_: if you have class named Mat, then you already have type named Mat. But I would rather name it Matrix.
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2014-07-16T08:52:57Z joe-w-bimedina_: but can I name my define-foreign-type the same as my defclass in any way or must the value returned by type-of(on a mat object) always be different than the name I use for my defcfun return value
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2014-07-16T08:53:47Z joe-w-bimedina_: I was so excited to finally wrap the C++ openCv I still name it MAT as an homage
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2014-07-16T08:58:15Z theos: schjetne you can look at http://www.amazon.com/Natural-Language-Processing-Lisp-Computational/dp/0201178257/ Its kinda old(1989) though
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2014-07-16T09:19:32Z Guthur`: joe-w-bimedina_: if you check the expansion of define-foreign-type you will see it creates a class
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2014-07-16T09:19:49Z joe-w-bimedina_: thanks..one sec
2014-07-16T09:19:59Z Guthur`: but you can all use packages for namespacing
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2014-07-16T09:20:18Z Guthur`: the general pattern is to have a low level bindings package
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2014-07-16T09:20:23Z Guthur`: then high level lispy one
2014-07-16T09:21:06Z joe-w-bimedina_: how do you macroexpand a define-foreign-type?
2014-07-16T09:22:12Z hitecnologys: clhs macroexpand-1
2014-07-16T09:22:21Z hitecnologys: Damn it, minion is dead.
2014-07-16T09:23:02Z joe-w-bimedina_: I meant how do you call it in order to macroexpand it
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2014-07-16T09:25:12Z joe-w-bimedina_: also the tppes I posted are all low-level, they all make up my defcfun returns...I am going to try to convert everything into lisp data as soon as possible though so maybe I should save this for last,  eg organizing packages
2014-07-16T09:25:22Z joe-w-bimedina_: *types
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2014-07-16T09:30:59Z joe-w-bimedina_: Guthur` Thanks for the advice...I really like the package idea
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2014-07-16T09:31:50Z joe-w-bimedina_: hitecnologys: thanks for advice as well I appreciate the extra knowledge
2014-07-16T09:32:32Z theos: i am still having problems with gtk-cffi. i cant figure out the name gdk is assigned. its #:gdk-cffi in the packages file but i still get the error
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2014-07-16T09:33:43Z joe-w-bimedina_: ok figured out macroexpand...you can just give it the whole define-foreign-type,
2014-07-16T09:33:47Z theos: can anyone help? i get error "The name "GDK-CFFI" does not designate any package."
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2014-07-16T09:39:29Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina_: that's not extra knowledge. That's one of these things you just have to know when writing in Lisp.
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2014-07-16T09:40:23Z joe-w-bimedina_: well now I know you can macroexpand more than a call, so it is still really appreciated
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2014-07-16T09:44:03Z joe-w-bimedina_: theos: what are you trying to do?
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2014-07-16T09:44:58Z theos: joe-w-bimedina_ i am getting started with cffi-gtk. the package names are giving me problems :S
2014-07-16T09:45:13Z joe-w-bimedina_: did you load with quicklisp
2014-07-16T09:45:21Z theos: yes
2014-07-16T09:45:29Z joe-w-bimedina_: eg is it installed correctly
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2014-07-16T09:46:07Z theos: yes everything went well. but when i :use package name, it says "The name "GDK-CFFI" does not designate any package."
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2014-07-16T09:48:10Z joe-w-bimedina_: wow same with gtk-cffi..one sec
2014-07-16T09:48:45Z theos: (:use :gtk :gdk :gdk-pixbuf :gobject :glib :gio :pango :cairo :common-lisp). gio is recognized because it is defined with   (:nicknames #:gio). i wish i could add nicknames to others and compress it up
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2014-07-16T09:51:56Z joe-w-bimedina_: its not pulled into asdf:*central-registry* on my end how about yours
2014-07-16T09:53:30Z theos: central-registry is undefined :D
2014-07-16T09:53:57Z joe-w-bimedina_: its this exactly: asdf:*central-registry*
2014-07-16T09:54:50Z hitecnologys: ASDF:*CENTRAL-REGISTRY* is deprecated, forget about it.
2014-07-16T09:55:56Z joe-w-bimedina_: I still use that in my sbclrc...could that be the reason it is not picking up gtk-cffi
2014-07-16T09:57:00Z theos: i can push a new path
2014-07-16T09:57:52Z theos: it is weird because some of the names are working while others are not
2014-07-16T10:03:35Z joe-w-bimedina_: try loading this (asdf:load-system :gtk-cffi-utils)  the package is named gtk-cffi-utils so i think that pulls in everything
2014-07-16T10:03:42Z joe-w-bimedina_: theos^
2014-07-16T10:04:18Z joe-w-bimedina_: crap maybe not
2014-07-16T10:04:30Z loke: gtk-cffi-utils loads fine with Quicklisp here
2014-07-16T10:04:38Z loke: why are you messing with asdf dicetly?
2014-07-16T10:04:39Z loke: directly
2014-07-16T10:04:50Z joe-w-bimedina_: can you use functions in it?
2014-07-16T10:05:02Z loke: joe-w-bimedina_: Which one do you want me to try?
2014-07-16T10:05:14Z joe-w-bimedina_: it loads here too but can't go into package  ...cairo-create
2014-07-16T10:05:19Z theos: we are having trouble with using gtk-cffi etc
2014-07-16T10:05:38Z loke: what package is ciaro-create in?
2014-07-16T10:06:37Z joe-w-bimedina_: gdk-cffi
2014-07-16T10:07:18Z loke: there is no gdk-cffi package
2014-07-16T10:07:45Z theos: (defpackage #:gdk-cffi
2014-07-16T10:07:53Z joe-w-bimedina_: in cairo.lisp...(in-package :gdk-cffi)
2014-07-16T10:08:46Z joe-w-bimedina_: maybe quiclisp is outdated...the svn is here: http://common-lisp.net/viewvc/gtk-cffi/gtk-cffi/
2014-07-16T10:09:11Z theos: ya i might have to install another way
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2014-07-16T10:09:28Z loke: Yes, gtk-cffi is not part of Quicklisp
2014-07-16T10:09:47Z loke: oh wait
2014-07-16T10:09:48Z loke: it is
2014-07-16T10:09:51Z theos: heh
2014-07-16T10:10:08Z Guthur`: joe-w-bimedina_: i was having networking issues and baby reponsibilities... you can use C-c-m to expand a macro using SLIME and emacs
2014-07-16T10:10:09Z joe-w-bimedina_: gtk-cffi-utils is...maybe thats why ...it could be a utils package
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2014-07-16T10:10:51Z theos: there is gio-cffi too
2014-07-16T10:10:58Z joe-w-bimedina_: Guthur` thanks for that, that will will really help debugging
2014-07-16T10:11:14Z loke: This seems to be a Quicklisp packaging problem
2014-07-16T10:11:47Z joe-w-bimedina_: you should try the svn
2014-07-16T10:12:14Z loke: oooooh
2014-07-16T10:12:18Z loke: I know why. i think
2014-07-16T10:12:32Z loke: No, wait. I dont. :-)
2014-07-16T10:13:10Z loke: OK, I see now
2014-07-16T10:13:40Z loke: The ASD file in the gtk system does not specify everything
2014-07-16T10:14:55Z joe-w-bimedina_: this works ...(in-package #:gtk-cffi-utils)
2014-07-16T10:15:18Z theos: yes gtk-cffi-utils works but its not gtk
2014-07-16T10:16:25Z loke: It's clear that Quicklisp doesn't pick up the gdk-cffi asd file
2014-07-16T10:16:39Z joe-w-bimedina_: which one did you download theos
2014-07-16T10:16:44Z joe-w-bimedina_: on QL
2014-07-16T10:17:02Z theos: i got both gio-cffi and gtk-cffi-utils
2014-07-16T10:17:18Z theos: i got the source. lets see if it works
2014-07-16T10:17:57Z joe-w-bimedina_: great CLiki says just download that
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2014-07-16T10:39:51Z theos: it works!
2014-07-16T10:40:32Z theos distributes donuts in the channel~
2014-07-16T10:42:04Z joe-w-bimedina_: congrats...was that the svn repository
2014-07-16T10:43:17Z theos: thanks https://github.com/crategus/cl-cffi-gtk
2014-07-16T10:44:03Z joe-w-bimedina_: cool thanks..I'm suprised cLiki didnt link to that
2014-07-16T10:47:04Z wizzo: if i have a function that returns a list, is there a simple way i am missing to run it x times and append the results together
2014-07-16T10:47:10Z wizzo: like map crossed with append?
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2014-07-16T10:47:57Z wizzo: i did find a custom function to flatten a list of lists which would work for me but idk maybe there is a better way
2014-07-16T10:48:22Z wizzo: i think i might just need to rethink the whole thing
2014-07-16T10:48:27Z H4ns: wizzo: maybe just a loop?
2014-07-16T10:49:25Z H4ns: wizzo: (loop for i below 10 append (my-function i))
2014-07-16T10:49:44Z H4ns: can't be much simpler than that, really.
2014-07-16T10:50:06Z wizzo: loop will return the full list?
2014-07-16T10:50:20Z H4ns: wizzo: by the way of the append clause, yes.
2014-07-16T10:50:35Z H4ns: wizzo: nothing beats a little repl experimentation.
2014-07-16T10:50:48Z wizzo: true :)
2014-07-16T10:50:56Z wizzo: thanks!
2014-07-16T10:50:58Z H4ns: sure
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2014-07-16T10:52:16Z wizzo: ooohhh append is a special loop thing not the function append
2014-07-16T10:52:27Z wizzo: loop is amazing
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2014-07-16T10:52:46Z H4ns: it is.  especially if you manage not to go overboard with it :)
2014-07-16T10:53:12Z H4ns shudders, remembering the huge loops that he had to look at in a certain project
2014-07-16T10:54:26Z wizzo: i promise
2014-07-16T10:54:45Z wizzo: i have been trying to force myself functional and been a little unsure about it anyway. but this seems ok
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2014-07-16T10:55:48Z H4ns: wizzo: cl lacks a lot of stuff that'd be useful to a purely functional mindest.  there is nothing wrong with using libraries for that, but there is also nothing wrong with impurity i'd say.  purist should not use cl in the first place.
2014-07-16T10:55:51Z Guthur`: I've encouraged myself to reach for map first before going loop
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2014-07-16T10:56:47Z H4ns: the lack of an efficient abstraction for number ranges often makes it hard to do things in a "properly functional" fashion
2014-07-16T10:57:08Z H4ns: again, nothing that libraries can't help with.  or loop :)
2014-07-16T10:57:19Z Shinmera: If it's a mere function call I tend to use map and friends but if it's more complicated than that loop looks cleaner to me than lambda forms. </opinion>
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2014-07-16T10:59:39Z wizzo: H4ns: totally agree
2014-07-16T10:59:57Z wizzo: for some reason in my head i always thought lisp was like haskell level functional
2014-07-16T11:00:04Z Guthur`: H4ns: Haskells list comprehension is neat
2014-07-16T11:00:04Z wizzo: i need to shake that off a bit
2014-07-16T11:00:30Z Guthur`: maybe iterate is close, haven't tried it
2014-07-16T11:00:32Z H4ns: Guthur`: there are lots of things in lots of other languages that are neat
2014-07-16T11:00:51Z antoszka: H4ns: what do you think of SERIES in that context?
2014-07-16T11:00:56Z loke: I suppose SERIES was an attempt at that?
2014-07-16T11:01:00Z antoszka: lol
2014-07-16T11:01:03Z wizzo: what is that?
2014-07-16T11:01:17Z antoszka: wizzo: something that was in CLtL1, but did not go into ANSI after all
2014-07-16T11:01:17Z loke: A failed attempt at number ranges
2014-07-16T11:01:23Z H4ns: antoszka: i think it is pretty cool, but a little heavy handed.
2014-07-16T11:01:25Z antoszka: not only that
2014-07-16T11:01:40Z antoszka: H4ns: happen to use it in your projects?
2014-07-16T11:01:49Z loke: What Java8 is doing with Streams is interesting, and should be doable in Lisp
2014-07-16T11:02:02Z H4ns: antoszka: no.  i looked at it when i started with lisp but found it too clumsy to be workable.
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2014-07-16T11:05:48Z Guthur`: can't find reasonable examples of series
2014-07-16T11:07:55Z Cymew: Was it even in CLtL2?
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2014-07-16T11:11:17Z antoszka: H4ns: Yeah, I'm reading the 1989 MIT paper now, it's very nicely presented, but seems a little over the top.
2014-07-16T11:11:28Z antoszka: or was it 1988
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2014-07-16T11:17:42Z therik: hi, I just accidentally installed sbcl 1.2.1 for ARM on linux... I unpacked binary and ran install.sh, then I realized I have wrong arch
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2014-07-16T11:18:06Z therik: is there some uninstall script or some easy way to remove it?
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2014-07-16T11:20:26Z hitecnologys: therik: I don't think so.
2014-07-16T11:20:43Z H4ns: therik: last time i had the problem i removed /usr/local/lib/sbcl and /usr/local/bin/sbcl iirc.  so no.
2014-07-16T11:20:58Z hitecnologys: therik: you can read install.sh and remove all files it should have copied, though.
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2014-07-16T11:21:22Z hitecnologys: H4ns: there's also /usr/share/man.
2014-07-16T11:21:42Z hitecnologys: H4ns: and doc and info, I presume.
2014-07-16T11:21:56Z H4ns: hitecnologys: therik is who'd be interested.
2014-07-16T11:22:38Z hitecnologys: H4ns: yeah, you're right.
2014-07-16T11:22:58Z therik: I mean, if I just remove all that comes from `locate sbcl`, that's enough?
2014-07-16T11:23:57Z H4ns: i'd restrict myself to /usr/local
2014-07-16T11:24:00Z hitecnologys: You should better use `find / -name "*sbcl*"` because locate may not have everything indexed.
2014-07-16T11:24:45Z therik: hitecnologys: even after `udpatedb`?
2014-07-16T11:25:31Z hitecnologys: therik: I'm not sure, I've never really checked it. But with find you're guaranteed to get everything as long as you have access.
2014-07-16T11:27:23Z therik: alright, thanks
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2014-07-16T11:46:32Z Harag: If any of you guys know of any Lisp developers in Estonia (or close by) that would like some contract work over the next 3 months please let me know. (Private me for contact details)
2014-07-16T11:48:09Z jdz: Harag: Common Lisp?
2014-07-16T11:48:14Z hitecnologys: Harag: there's Lisp Works or something like that blog for that sort of stuff.
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2014-07-16T11:48:33Z H4ns: hitecnologys: there is nothing wrong with asking here.
2014-07-16T11:48:58Z hitecnologys: H4ns: of course, I just suggested also posting over there too.
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2014-07-16T11:50:02Z H4ns: hitecnologys: lisp works is nothing.  if you try to be helpful, you could try to be actually helpful. http://lispjobs.wordpress.com/
2014-07-16T11:50:10Z hitecnologys: "Lisp Jobs" that is, I remembered.
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2014-07-16T11:50:22Z Harag: jdz: yes common lisp (sbcl)
2014-07-16T11:50:23Z hitecnologys: Bleh, too late.
2014-07-16T11:51:02Z dseagrav: "Job"? What is this "Job" you speak of? Wasn't he a guy in the Bible?
2014-07-16T11:51:17Z jdz: Harag: i know a guy whose life i've destroyed by introducing him to Common Lisp in Latvia
2014-07-16T11:51:25Z Harag: lol
2014-07-16T11:51:59Z Harag: well I need some one that would be prepared to spend 3 months in Estonia living and breathing code
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2014-07-16T11:54:03Z jdz: Harag: which city?
2014-07-16T11:54:11Z Harag: tallin
2014-07-16T11:54:51Z Harag: it wont be any rocket science work, I need some one to take up some of the grunt work
2014-07-16T11:54:54Z jdz: Harag: you're going to post it on lispjobs, right?
2014-07-16T11:56:06Z Harag: looking at it now, but trying my Estonian contacts and here first
2014-07-16T11:56:18Z jdz: OK, makes sense
2014-07-16T11:56:38Z Guthur`: Harag: does it have to be local
2014-07-16T11:56:42Z Guthur`:  
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2014-07-16T11:57:18Z H4ns: "I need some one that would be prepared to spend 3 months in Estonia" seems to be pretty explicit
2014-07-16T11:57:22Z Harag: Guthur`: Yes for the 3 months I need some one on site I have some one off and on site already
2014-07-16T11:57:23Z H4ns: but i might be misreading it.
2014-07-16T11:57:27Z Guthur`: I'd imagine you will get many more applicants if you allow remote workers
2014-07-16T11:58:01Z Guthur`: H4ns: sure but there is no harm in asking for clarification
2014-07-16T11:58:53Z Harag: Guthur`: Remote is fine for long slow projects, not for on the edge of your seat stuff, I have been working with remote guys for years and there are always issues working remotely.
2014-07-16T11:59:44Z Guthur`: Harag: sure
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2014-07-16T12:52:39Z Guthur`: lispaste still down
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2014-07-16T13:14:10Z Xach: Shinmera: does your blog have a feed? feedly can't find it, and i don't see any obvious link to one.
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2014-07-16T13:15:32Z Shinmera: Xach: There is currently none, no. I'll probably be unable to withstand the temptation to rewrite the software rather soon though
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2014-07-16T13:16:52Z Shinmera: Xach: If it's possible you could filter my tumblr rss feed by the common lisp category. http://tumblr.shinmera.com/rss
2014-07-16T13:20:12Z Xach: I thought the tumblr was it. I was really confused by how each entry was one paragraph long and seemed to hint at more. Tumblr doesn't make the link obvious.
2014-07-16T13:20:38Z Shinmera: Yeah I never optimised my theme for links. Another thing I should get around to
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2014-07-16T13:21:07Z Shinmera: Sadly tumblr doesn't allow to filter rss feeds by tags
2014-07-16T13:21:38Z eudoxia only just now realized shinmera's posts were more than a paragraph long
2014-07-16T13:21:45Z Shinmera: :u
2014-07-16T13:21:45Z eudoxia: i thought they were like "post promises" or something
2014-07-16T13:21:57Z eudoxia: like "this will eventually be a post about CLOS"
2014-07-16T13:22:10Z Shinmera: Yeah alright, I'll fix my theme up in a second
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2014-07-16T13:22:32Z Xach: eudoxia: same here
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2014-07-16T13:26:44Z Shinmera: http://tumblr.shinmera.com/tagged/common%20lisp is it more obvious now?
2014-07-16T13:26:53Z Shinmera: (or any hints on how to make it more obvious?)
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2014-07-16T13:29:16Z Xach: Shinmera: i expected a link to follow the paragraph
2014-07-16T13:29:29Z eudoxia: like [Read more...]
2014-07-16T13:29:30Z Xach: Oh, /me shift-reloads
2014-07-16T13:29:35Z Xach: That's a bit better
2014-07-16T13:29:41Z Shinmera: eudoxia: Hrm, I suppose.
2014-07-16T13:29:42Z Xach: But still, I expected something at the end
2014-07-16T13:29:49Z Shinmera: Right, I'll fiddle with the template then
2014-07-16T13:30:04Z Shinmera mutters angrily about tumblr's template system
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2014-07-16T13:36:33Z Shinmera: Hooow about now
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2014-07-16T13:37:57Z Xach: Shinmera: looks good to me, thanks
2014-07-16T13:38:11Z Shinmera: Well, thank you for voicing the confusion!
2014-07-16T13:39:06Z Shinmera: I'd love some feedback on the entries too, if there is any
2014-07-16T13:39:09Z Xach: This is a roundabout way of commenting that a GF without methods can be useful sometimes by adding methods for NO-APPLICABLE-METHOD
2014-07-16T13:40:20Z Shinmera: Ah, right, I hadn't even thought of that possibility
2014-07-16T13:40:32Z Shinmera: (Every day I learn more about clos, it seems)
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2014-07-16T13:44:29Z eudoxia: there aren't enough MOP tutorials
2014-07-16T13:44:37Z Shinmera: true too
2014-07-16T13:44:52Z Xach: I think there's a real opportunity there now that closer-mop is so firmly established
2014-07-16T13:44:53Z eudoxia: i remember when writing Crane i read the sources of Postmodern and clos-xml or whatever it's called
2014-07-16T13:45:20Z Xach: It used to be that any MOP tutorial would have to get handwavy around the specific packages and problems of implementation MOPs
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2014-07-16T13:46:28Z theos: Xach we think that quicklisp has broken gtk-cffi
2014-07-16T13:47:21Z Xach: I don't think quicklisp provides gtk-cffi
2014-07-16T13:47:33Z Xach: I am unable to build-test it
2014-07-16T13:47:40Z Xach: Please tell me more
2014-07-16T13:47:46Z theos: it does. gio-cffi and gtk-cffi-utils
2014-07-16T13:48:04Z Xach: I should remove those to reduce confusion.
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2014-07-16T13:48:31Z theos: ok. it installed fine but we couldnt use the functions
2014-07-16T13:48:57Z Shinmera: Xach: I added your comment as an addendum to the post
2014-07-16T13:49:59Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: looks quite nice.
2014-07-16T13:50:08Z Xach: theos: gtk-cffi is not part of quicklisp. some of its supporting systems are.
2014-07-16T13:50:14Z Shinmera: For those wondering, the post in question is this: http://blog.tymoon.eu/p/268-Generic_Functions_and_CLOS_-_Confessions_11#blog
2014-07-16T13:50:28Z Shinmera: any kind of critique would be welcome, I want it to be useful to people.
2014-07-16T13:50:43Z theos: Xach i see. in case you want to build it in the future - https://github.com/crategus/cl-cffi-gtk
2014-07-16T13:52:25Z splittist: Shinmera: Isn't multi-dispatch usually called multiple dispatch?
2014-07-16T13:52:44Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: did you draw these? TinEye doesn't seem to give specific place of origin.
2014-07-16T13:52:47Z Shinmera: splittist: it is, yes. I'm not sure why I wrote what I did there
2014-07-16T13:52:55Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: I did not no.
2014-07-16T13:53:10Z splittist: Perhaps you started with multimethods and changed your mind (:
2014-07-16T13:53:13Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: most of the images on my blog entries are from my collection of works that I gathered over the years
2014-07-16T13:53:44Z Guthur`: Shinmera: one minro niggle, generic functions dispatch on classes not types, eql specializers withstanding
2014-07-16T13:54:00Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I see. Drawings are good, though.
2014-07-16T13:54:02Z Shinmera: Guthur`: I know that, I tried to avoid writing types wherever I could
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2014-07-16T13:55:30Z Guthur`: yeah i figured you were aware, but this one is probably the worst offender if i was being really pedantic "you can define methods that specialise on other internal types such as string, "
2014-07-16T13:55:39Z Shinmera: Guthur`: changed that to 'secialised depending on the kind of arguments you pass into it', which is what I meant but without the double meaning problem
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2014-07-16T13:56:08Z Guthur`: but that is internal types so...
2014-07-16T13:56:15Z Guthur`: umm probably fine
2014-07-16T13:56:17Z Shinmera: Guthur`: right, yes. I didn't want to bother the reader with the fact that types have clos classes defined
2014-07-16T13:56:30Z splittist: Shinmera: I had been wondering what you meant by "or even nothing at all" in that sentence.
2014-07-16T13:56:59Z Shinmera: splittist: supposed to mean 'not specialising on anything'
2014-07-16T13:57:23Z Shinmera: splittist: clarified that
2014-07-16T13:58:21Z Shinmera: Guthur`: I'll add an annotation just to make sure
2014-07-16T13:58:35Z Shinmera: *addendum
2014-07-16T14:00:00Z Shinmera: Would "To be really precise, methods don't specialise on types (even internal types as stated above), but rather on classes. This works because most of the types in the specification have an equivalent class defined so that CLOS may work with it."
2014-07-16T14:00:04Z Shinmera: be a good way to put it?
2014-07-16T14:00:46Z Guthur`: yeah, definitely an addendum though, so it doesn't muddy the waters too much
2014-07-16T14:00:53Z Shinmera: yeah, it's at the bottom
2014-07-16T14:01:39Z splittist: Shinmera: perhaps "the power CLOS offers is incomprehensible if you are used to other systems" could be "the power CLOS offers is difficult to grasp if ..." - which seems less frightening...
2014-07-16T14:01:46Z phadthai: the confusion between types and classes itself can be difficult to solve for beginners, unfortunately
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2014-07-16T14:02:03Z Shinmera: splittist: hmm. Yeah that's definitely better, thanks. I couldn't think of a proper way to put it
2014-07-16T14:02:13Z Shinmera: phadthai: for sure, yes
2014-07-16T14:02:24Z Shinmera: phadthai: might be worth an article in itself
2014-07-16T14:02:33Z phadthai: I also think so
2014-07-16T14:02:49Z eudoxia: "classes are actually instances of metaclasses" can be pretty complicated
2014-07-16T14:02:51Z hitecnologys: Xach: by the way, about that thing about cartoons. I've look all over my stuff but I can't find a big archive of papers I've been collecting over years. I don't know where it gone. I'll try to reconstruct what I find interesting from my memory but that will take significantly longer (I have other tasks to be done).
2014-07-16T14:03:04Z Shinmera: eudoxia: hehe
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2014-07-16T14:03:15Z phadthai: Shinmera: is the artwork there yours?  It's very nice
2014-07-16T14:03:27Z Shinmera: phadthai: as I pointed out previously, no
2014-07-16T14:03:31Z phadthai: ok
2014-07-16T14:03:39Z Shinmera: phadthai: almost none of my blog artworks are, I'm by far not good enough, haha
2014-07-16T14:03:42Z phadthai: still of great taste
2014-07-16T14:04:14Z Shinmera: A lot of it is from here http://theartofanimation.tumblr.com/
2014-07-16T14:04:20Z phadthai: thanks
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2014-07-16T14:06:28Z Shinmera: At some point I might remake my online image collection gallery
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2014-07-16T15:56:21Z oGMo: weird, why would PROBE-FILE have inconsistent behavior wrt *default-pathname-defaults* .. same CL (ccl)
2014-07-16T15:56:35Z oGMo: one seems to (merge-pathnames) its parameter and one does not
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2014-07-16T16:00:48Z H4ns: oGMo: an example might help
2014-07-16T16:01:56Z oGMo: H4ns: er, the trivial case .. but, apparently i lied, i had rebuilt CCL on one box, updating past the fix
2014-07-16T16:02:13Z oGMo: but (let ((*default-pathname-defaults* SOMETHING)) (probe-file SOME-FILE-THERE))
2014-07-16T16:02:45Z oGMo: http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/1174
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2014-07-16T16:09:13Z therik: is there a way to make sbcl write line number upon error?
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2014-07-16T16:09:51Z H4ns: therik: there are ways, but unfortunately there is none that you'd just enable and be done with it.
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2014-07-16T16:19:22Z brown``: therik: If you use Slime, it highlights the point of the error in your editor buffer.
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2014-07-16T16:44:01Z therik: I use slime, but many times it just highlights entire 200 line function
2014-07-16T16:44:31Z therik: sure, I should refactor that, but still it just highlights defun
2014-07-16T16:44:56Z Krystof: are you perhaps decreasing the compiler's debug level?  (or loading something which does that?)
2014-07-16T16:45:04Z jasom: therik: often that's because something is wrong with the whole function
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2014-07-16T16:45:15Z jasom: e.g. unused variable, a completely broken macroexpansion near the toplevel
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2014-07-16T16:46:19Z jasom: If you screw up LOOP, in particular it expands to code that really messes with SBCLs compiler.  In that case there is usually also a warning attached to loop though, so M-n should take you to that
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2014-07-16T16:49:37Z therik: jasom: you're right, M-n puts me on right spot
2014-07-16T16:50:16Z therik: but "v" in backtrace gives: Error: Cannot find source location for: #<COMPILED-CODE-LOCATION (SB-C::TL-XEP PIMEMO::SEND-JS-ACTION)
2014-07-16T16:50:35Z therik: where send-js-action is my defined function
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2014-07-16T16:51:18Z Krystof: are you perhaps decreasing the compiler's debug level?  (or loading
2014-07-16T16:51:20Z Krystof:           something which does that?)
2014-07-16T16:51:25Z therik: debug is 3
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2014-07-16T16:54:19Z therik: http://pastebin.com/dUzJ0GJA
2014-07-16T16:54:36Z therik: the offender is line #14, extra argument, that func takes only 2
2014-07-16T16:55:23Z therik: with-html is weblocks macro, but send-js-action is my function
2014-07-16T16:56:02Z Krystof: ok.  (a) if you do C-u C-c C-c on the form which defines send-js-action (not the caller, the callee) does that change the error from slime?
2014-07-16T16:56:16Z Krystof: (b) if you do v on the frame below the one you're currently pressing v on, do you go somewhere interesting?
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2014-07-16T16:57:35Z therik: Krystof: a: yes, now the first thing in stacktrace is correctly on that send-js-action definition
2014-07-16T16:58:31Z therik: and still a: another change is that it now highlights the function call correctly, instead of the whole render-widget-body
2014-07-16T16:58:50Z therik: b: the frame under it doesn't show anything
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2014-07-16T17:12:53Z therik: I guess that's because my sources are on remote serer
2014-07-16T17:12:57Z therik: *server
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2014-07-16T17:40:23Z therik: when I have sources on remote server via tramp and ssh, is there some easy way to set it up so that all the slime juiciness works on those remote files?
2014-07-16T17:40:44Z therik: or do I have to make local copy and set up rsync to keep them the same?
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2014-07-16T17:44:47Z Xach: There's a way to set up automatic translation with slime.
2014-07-16T17:45:01Z Xach: I don't remember the method. If I were you, I'd check the manual.
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2014-07-16T17:46:32Z hitecnologys: therik: you can try mounting the directory that contains the sources via SFTP.
2014-07-16T17:46:47Z hitecnologys: therik: that's what I do when I need to work with remote file, seems to work fine.
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2014-07-16T17:48:32Z Xach: therik: see also contrib/slime-tramp.el
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2014-07-16T18:09:07Z hitecnologys: therik: why do you need tramp?
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2014-07-16T18:09:47Z Xach: hitecnologys: I used to do that because I like windowed emacs more than remote terminal emacs
2014-07-16T18:10:00Z Xach: Now I've mostly configured the keys so they work ok remotely too, though I still miss the windowing.
2014-07-16T18:10:13Z Xach: I don't know therik's reason
2014-07-16T18:10:20Z hitecnologys: Xach: there's sshfs, why would anyone use tramp?
2014-07-16T18:10:34Z hitecnologys: Xach: or am I missing something?
2014-07-16T18:10:54Z Xach: I don't know what sshfs is.
2014-07-16T18:10:58Z Shinmera: I just hook into the remote slime (via ssh tunnel) to do debugging / feature testing and sync sources via git once I'm done.
2014-07-16T18:11:09Z jdz: hitecnologys: don't you have to first mount stuff to use it?
2014-07-16T18:11:13Z Shinmera: Xach: allows you to mount a remote ssh folder locally
2014-07-16T18:11:20Z H4ns: hitecnologys: tramp is very lightweight.  sshfs is not.  and requires root.
2014-07-16T18:11:34Z hitecnologys: H4ns: no, it doesn't.
2014-07-16T18:11:49Z Xach: Does it work on Mac OS?
2014-07-16T18:11:54Z H4ns: hitecnologys: it requires mounting, no?
2014-07-16T18:12:05Z hitecnologys: Xach: worked last time I checked.
2014-07-16T18:12:21Z hitecnologys: H4ns: it uses FUSE.
2014-07-16T18:12:57Z H4ns: hitecnologys: see?
2014-07-16T18:13:11Z hitecnologys: H4ns: at least it works without root for me, I'm not sure what happens in other cases.
2014-07-16T18:14:51Z hitecnologys: > Usable by non privileged users
2014-07-16T18:14:59Z hitecnologys: That's from FUSE web site.
2014-07-16T18:16:49Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I wouldn't say sshfs is that heavy. I use it on daily basis and I never had any problems with it.
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2014-07-16T18:17:40Z Xach: Maybe I'll try it someday.
2014-07-16T18:18:22Z Shinmera: I've used it before, it's quite useful but since SSH can be really slow, so can sshfs which might make navigating a pain, especially with lots of files.
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2014-07-16T18:20:36Z therik: great, thanks Xach, slime-tramp works well
2014-07-16T18:21:15Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: indeed. But I'm only using it much on my local network so I've never experienced these. There's one thing, though: sshfs will hang for quite a while if network connection suddenly drops, that's the side effect of long SSH timeout. It is possible to deal with it by lowering it but it's not that bad.
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2014-07-16T18:27:32Z Vivitron: For running emacs and slime on the remote I like tmux. I don't have all the key issues sorted, but it's nice to disconnect and reconnect into a still setup environment.
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2014-07-16T19:08:38Z Denommus: Vivitron: I prefer to use emacs --daemon for that
2014-07-16T19:10:21Z Vivitron: Thanks, I may try it
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2014-07-16T19:18:52Z billstclair: I used slime-tramp for a while on one project. It worked, but it took a very long time to open and write files. I find it much easier to ssh to a remote emacs, running in a screen or tmux.
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2014-07-16T19:26:10Z hitecnologys: billstclair: and make everything slow but opening files fast?
2014-07-16T19:26:38Z billstclair: I found the slow file operations to be much more annoying than slow keystrokes
2014-07-16T19:27:06Z billstclair: Emacs via ssh tends to keep up with my typing pretty well
2014-07-16T19:27:22Z Shinmera: I usually just connect to the remote swank port with a local emacs. Works wonders.
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2014-07-16T19:27:55Z hitecnologys: If I worked on slow connection, I'd rather set up rsync mirroring rather than make everything slow.
2014-07-16T19:27:58Z billstclair: For simple REPL interaction, but if you want to change remote files, you need SSHFS or Tramp
2014-07-16T19:28:29Z hitecnologys: s/rarher than make/instead of making/
2014-07-16T19:28:30Z felideon: I wonder if SSHFS is faster. I've only tried Tramp
2014-07-16T19:28:34Z Shinmera: billstclair: you can use your local copies and compile what you need
2014-07-16T19:28:39Z billstclair: rsync mirroring might work well
2014-07-16T19:28:42Z Shinmera: billstclair: and once you're all done, sync it with git or whatever
2014-07-16T19:28:57Z Shinmera: billstclair: the lisp server does not care whether you're using local files or any files at all for the matter
2014-07-16T19:29:20Z hitecnologys: felideon: shouldn't be much faster but it's easier to use in my opinion.
2014-07-16T19:29:23Z billstclair: Except I'm fond of frequent (ql:quickload "<system>") to update
2014-07-16T19:29:46Z Shinmera: billstclair: I don't see how that invalidates my comment
2014-07-16T19:30:27Z billstclair: As long as sshfs, tramp, or rsync mirroring is keeping the remote files up-to-date, then it works.
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2014-07-16T19:31:38Z hitecnologys: I guess the choice of approach mostly depends on how fast your network connection is.
2014-07-16T19:31:42Z billstclair: yep
2014-07-16T19:32:23Z hitecnologys: One can also try setting up buffering of output and writing files to remote server in the background.
2014-07-16T19:32:24Z Shinmera: I usually work with servers that have quite laggy connections and simply connecting to swank works well enough for that. The only annoyance is that M-. doesn't work without mirroring the remote filesystem through symlinks in some fashion.
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2014-07-16T19:32:34Z Shinmera: *mirroring the structure of the remote
2014-07-16T19:32:54Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: yeah, remote SWANK connections works quite fine.
2014-07-16T19:33:34Z billstclair: Remote swank connections do work, but have security problems, if you care about that, since ANYBODY can connect to those ports
2014-07-16T19:33:53Z Shinmera: billstclair: ssh
2014-07-16T19:33:57Z billstclair: Yes, I know
2014-07-16T19:33:58Z hitecnologys: billstclair: well, that's why people invented SSH port forwarding!
2014-07-16T19:34:04Z billstclair: I've used that many times
2014-07-16T19:34:15Z hitecnologys: It does wonders.
2014-07-16T19:34:39Z billstclair: Thing is, a remote emacs doesn't stress a slow link much more than a remote swank
2014-07-16T19:34:53Z billstclair: Emacs is quite usable at 9600 baud
2014-07-16T19:35:00Z Shinmera: But it's much more annoying to me when my editor is laggy than when a compiling command is.
2014-07-16T19:35:28Z hitecnologys: That's why one should stick to mirroring or buffering output if the connection is slow.
2014-07-16T19:36:03Z hitecnologys: Buffering writes to remote file system, I mean.
2014-07-16T19:36:10Z billstclair: I've done remote emacs from my 1 megabit DSL across the ocean with no problems
2014-07-16T19:36:32Z hitecnologys: It's still slow compared to one running locally.
2014-07-16T19:36:46Z billstclair: Not noticeable to my 35 WPM typing speed
2014-07-16T19:36:57Z Shinmera: Heh
2014-07-16T19:37:17Z Shinmera: Not sure how fast my lisp typing speed is but my regular typing speed is around the 100 mark.
2014-07-16T19:37:27Z hitecnologys: billstclair: I have poor memory so I have to move a lot around my files to remember things.
2014-07-16T19:37:30Z decent: Type slower?
2014-07-16T19:37:40Z Shinmera: decent: I like to type fast and I like my editors snappy
2014-07-16T19:37:55Z billstclair: If I typed that fast, I'd probably have different priorities too
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2014-07-16T19:38:19Z billstclair: I actually spend most of my time in emacs thinking, not typing
2014-07-16T19:38:20Z hitecnologys: 100 marks per minute? Holy my, that's fast.
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2014-07-16T19:38:51Z Shinmera: billstclair: Well yes of course, but when I do type, I like to type fast.
2014-07-16T19:39:00Z stassats: deutsche marks, i hope?
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2014-07-16T19:39:24Z hitecnologys: Woah, stassats.
2014-07-16T19:39:33Z hitecnologys: stassats: what happened to minion?
2014-07-16T19:39:42Z stassats: you tell me
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2014-07-16T19:39:48Z hitecnologys: You don't know?
2014-07-16T19:39:55Z stassats: no
2014-07-16T19:40:09Z hitecnologys: Well, then who knows?
2014-07-16T19:40:23Z marsbot is now known as marsam
2014-07-16T19:40:40Z stassats: nah, who cares? let's just start it
2014-07-16T19:40:56Z stassats: the uptime on cl.net is 1 day, 21:39
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2014-07-16T19:41:18Z hitecnologys: I'm having hard time without that little guy.
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2014-07-16T19:41:32Z hitecnologys: Oh, Cliki is up.
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2014-07-16T19:43:58Z stassats: minion: what's up?
2014-07-16T19:43:59Z minion: not much
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2014-07-16T21:00:36Z oleo: is paste.lisp.org back ?
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2014-07-16T21:11:16Z nicdev: oleo: i accessed few mins ago so i think yes
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2014-07-16T21:15:55Z oleo: oh cool
2014-07-16T21:20:33Z dim: what's with sbcl 1.2.1 and slime?
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2014-07-16T21:23:29Z Shinmera: nothing, works if you had the latest slime.
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2014-07-16T21:27:06Z dim: I didn't, apparently
2014-07-16T21:27:18Z dim: I should have upgrade ql dists then SBCL maybe
2014-07-16T21:27:24Z Shinmera: Yep.
2014-07-16T21:27:57Z dim: well, brew switch sbcl 1.2.0 was easy enough to get back on my feet again
2014-07-16T21:28:09Z dim: will consider upgrade all dists later this week, maybe tomorrow even
2014-07-16T21:28:19Z dim: now is a good time to go sleep, instead ;-)
2014-07-16T21:29:02Z Shinmera: Sweet lisp dreams~
2014-07-16T21:29:11Z dim: '(hehe)
2014-07-16T21:29:18Z oleo: i wish you many many ()'s
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2014-07-16T21:29:21Z oleo: lol
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2014-07-16T21:34:12Z therik: haha
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2014-07-16T23:31:51Z pjb: byte48: http://www.cliki.net/bioinformatics
2014-07-16T23:33:28Z byte48: pjb: hi!, yes i see the information is very fine, thanks pjb!
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2014-07-16T23:38:29Z byte48: i read very much, but the articles and books is very long xD....
2014-07-16T23:38:36Z byte48: but is great! :)
2014-07-16T23:39:01Z byte48: thanks all for the articles and recomendations!
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2014-07-17T00:26:38Z jasom: Is multithreading on the main lisp implementations relatively sane (e.g. if I read a fixnum from thread A, that is being updated from thread B, is thread A guranteed to see only either the old or new value of the fixnum)
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2014-07-17T00:30:20Z inklesspen: hell, the main lisp implementations (whatever those are) aren't even guaranteed to support threading, i think
2014-07-17T00:30:38Z Bike: it's not standard, but the main implementations do support it.
2014-07-17T00:30:46Z inklesspen: http://common-lisp.net/project/bordeaux-threads/ might be a resource here
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2014-07-17T00:59:59Z jasom: inklesspen: bt is a very thin wrapper around the native threading
2014-07-17T01:00:25Z jasom: inklesspen: in some cases I've found certain operations that are nops even if they can be fairly trivially implemented on top of the existing threading stuff.
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2014-07-17T01:07:41Z joe-w-bimedina: How again do you get rid of those ^M characters, in Emacs, that you pick up when copying code, from gedit, in Ubuntu
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2014-07-17T01:36:48Z drmeister: Git question (working on Common Lisp implementation)  -  I'm in branch "varargs" and I make a bunch of changes to my code, then without commiting those changes I switch to branch "main" and commit the changes.   Have I just put the changes in the "main" branch?
2014-07-17T01:36:56Z drmeister: 'cause that's what it looks like.
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2014-07-17T01:37:19Z drmeister: My fingers were moving a little fast.
2014-07-17T01:37:25Z drmeister: too fast.
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2014-07-17T01:47:01Z Bike: i don't think so... check the gifs?
2014-07-17T01:47:03Z Bike: diffs
2014-07-17T01:49:25Z inklesspen: drmeister: yes. git should have kept you from switching branches if those changes could have cleanly been made to the new branch.
2014-07-17T01:49:34Z inklesspen: drmeister: you should check the git log.
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2014-07-17T01:50:28Z Zhivago: One of my 'favourite' git features. :)
2014-07-17T01:50:32Z zRecursive: drmeister: git show 'HEAD@{1}..HEAD'
2014-07-17T01:50:42Z drmeister: git diff varargs..main produces nothing  even though there are clear differences between files when I switch back and forth between the branches. Ugh.
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2014-07-17T01:52:06Z Bike: so, uncommited changes?
2014-07-17T01:52:09Z drmeister: Wait - no - now there are differences.
2014-07-17T01:53:10Z drmeister: I hadn't made any serious changes so if I screwed something up I could merge the branches at this point and start over.   I was experimenting with branches to make sure they worked as I expected and then I committed changes in the wrong branch.
2014-07-17T01:53:39Z Zhivago: It's very annoying when that happens.
2014-07-17T01:53:46Z drmeister: The weak point is always behind the keyboard.
2014-07-17T01:54:01Z Vivitron: drmeister: it commits the changes to the branch checked out when you commit. 'git show-branch' 'git log' and 'git show commithash' should let you see what you have
2014-07-17T02:00:48Z drmeister: I'm checking these suggestions out - thanks.
2014-07-17T02:01:48Z brucem: drmeister: you want to move the changes to the varargs branch? this is easy to do.
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2014-07-17T02:03:51Z drmeister: brucem: how would I do that?
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2014-07-17T02:04:57Z brucem: drmeister: if the last commit on master is the one you meant for varargs ... git checkout varargs; git cherry-pick {commit hash for that commit}; git checkout master; git reset HEAD~1; git checkout -- on the changed files to remove the changes.
2014-07-17T02:06:25Z drmeister: Interpreting that: git cherry-pick {commit hash for that commit} is applying those changes to varargs.
2014-07-17T02:06:35Z brucem: yes
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2014-07-17T02:06:53Z drmeister: git checkout master; git reset HEAD~1  ---  Switch back to master and remove the changes for the last commit?
2014-07-17T02:07:25Z brucem: well, git reset HEAD~1 will undo the commit, but the files are still changed-but-not-commited ... so git checkout -- on them will remove the changes.
2014-07-17T02:07:26Z drmeister: Or is the: git checkout --       needed to do that?
2014-07-17T02:07:41Z brucem: you could git reset --hard HEAD~1 but I tend to be more conservative.
2014-07-17T02:08:00Z drmeister: What does the --hard option do?
2014-07-17T02:08:20Z brucem:                Resets the index and working tree. Any changes to tracked files in the working tree since <commit> are discarded.
2014-07-17T02:08:38Z brucem: so it can be dangerous depending on the state of your tree :)
2014-07-17T02:09:55Z drmeister: I think I need to do this - I mis-spoke I didn't commit the changes to the "master" branch but rather to the "main" branch - I have no idea where the "main" branch came from - I must have created it somewhere.
2014-07-17T02:10:03Z drmeister: sometime and forgot about it.
2014-07-17T02:10:10Z drmeister: sloppy, sloppy, sloppy
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2014-07-17T02:11:48Z dlowe: if you checkout master, you can reset it to the head commit in main
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2014-07-17T02:12:11Z dlowe: the head commit *of* main
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2014-07-17T02:14:38Z drmeister: Here's what  git show-branch gives me.   The newer stuff is at the top?   https://gist.github.com/drmeister/9a4566e399e5cc023090
2014-07-17T02:16:59Z drmeister: git log - does that give the log just for the branch I'm in?
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2014-07-17T02:38:29Z drmeister: I think (hope) I got everything merged and derelict branches deleted.
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2014-07-17T03:39:00Z joe-w-bimedina: I have a specific c++ OpenCv function I can use to get the X coordinate of a Point class object I create, it is called point-x. Or, I can create a function that will do the same thing by calling (mem-aref point-object :int 0) and be like 10 times faster.  Is it safe to do the latter, is it  safe to use mem-aref to replace c++ functions if you always know the item you want will be at the 0th index
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2014-07-17T03:47:40Z Vivitron: drmeister: I looked away, but yes your interpretations of those git commands is correct
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2014-07-17T04:33:57Z drmeister: Vivitron: Thanks.
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2014-07-17T05:25:30Z theos: how tough would it be to make opencl bindings for CL?
2014-07-17T05:26:36Z hitecnologys: theos: not that tough but definitely lots of work.
2014-07-17T05:26:58Z theos: :(
2014-07-17T05:27:37Z hitecnologys: theos: I remember joe-w-bimedina was making one, you might cooperate so there won't be two sets bindings.
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2014-07-17T05:28:10Z theos: hitecnologys any pointers for starting?
2014-07-17T05:28:52Z hitecnologys: theos: I'd start with reading CFFI manual. If you already feel confident with CFFI, you might start reading OpenCL manual. If you already good with OpenCL, then go ahead and write code.
2014-07-17T05:28:57Z joe-w-bimedina: he said opencl, Im doing opencv
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2014-07-17T05:29:08Z hitecnologys: Ah, right.
2014-07-17T05:29:31Z theos: ah thanks
2014-07-17T05:30:44Z hitecnologys: OpenCL doesn't have that much stuff, as far as I remember. Writing bindings won't take longer than a few weeks if you're already familiar with what it provides.
2014-07-17T05:32:39Z joe-w-bimedina: so far there is this: https://github.com/3b/cl-opencl-3b/blob/master/opencl.lisp  you can expand on it if u want
2014-07-17T05:33:04Z joe-w-bimedina: and this too: https://github.com/takagi/cl-cuda
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2014-07-17T05:34:40Z theos: yes i am reading it to get a better understanding. i prefer to write my own :D
2014-07-17T05:35:26Z joe-w-bimedina: that is a great way to learn everything it, writing it yourself..good luck
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2014-07-17T05:48:45Z theos: thanks
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2014-07-17T06:08:00Z hitecnologys: I have dynamically bound variable which is set by calling PROGV in some function. What is the best way to access such a variable without touching global environment or returning it's value as a result of execution (can't do that because function goes into infinite loop once variable was set and when it exits, the value is mostly useless)?
2014-07-17T06:08:14Z hitecnologys: s/it's/its/
2014-07-17T06:08:28Z Bike: uh, i don't understand. symbol-value?
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2014-07-17T06:08:50Z H4ns: progv, why would one want to use that again?
2014-07-17T06:11:45Z hitecnologys: H4ns: bleh, it's quite complicated. I want variable to have possibly different values in different threads, therefore I can't use one global dynamic variable. I have mechanism of encapsulating global state into an instance of class which is read by the function I mentioned and this function prepares proper environment for thread and it shouldn't touch global one.
2014-07-17T06:12:17Z hitecnologys: Bike: won't work. The variable is not bound in REPL thread.
2014-07-17T06:12:37Z Bike: i don't remotely understand what you're doing. how about (locally (special foo) foo)
2014-07-17T06:12:44Z Bike: (declare (special foo)), rather
2014-07-17T06:13:18Z H4ns: hitecnologys: i'd say that you'd be better off with binding all required special variables by your thread function instead.
2014-07-17T06:13:37Z hitecnologys: H4ns: even if so, I still need to access it somehow.
2014-07-17T06:13:53Z H4ns: hitecnologys: right.  from within the threads.
2014-07-17T06:14:53Z hitecnologys: H4ns: but how? Threads are busy doing other stuff.
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2014-07-17T06:15:26Z H4ns: hitecnologys: you cannot access the bindings from the outside.  if you need to, put them in some global data structure.  progv is not the right tool.
2014-07-17T06:15:47Z H4ns: progv is very very rarely the right tool for anything.
2014-07-17T06:16:36Z H4ns: and i write "very very rarely" because some intelligent person will surely come up with their contrived example illustrating how progv saved their day, once in 20 years of lisp programming :D
2014-07-17T06:16:53Z hitecnologys: But how else would I bind list of random symbols to random values dynamically in runtime?
2014-07-17T06:16:57Z theos: i have never even heard about it. not until now :D
2014-07-17T06:17:11Z H4ns: hitecnologys: you won't.  special variables are not a runtime thing.
2014-07-17T06:17:38Z H4ns: hitecnologys: if you need runtime mapping from a symbol to a value, there are so many proper first-class data structures that you can choose from.
2014-07-17T06:18:18Z hitecnologys: H4ns: bleh, I had quite clear achitecture compared to what I had before and now I need to redisign everything.
2014-07-17T06:18:31Z hitecnologys: redesign*
2014-07-17T06:18:47Z H4ns: hitecnologys: yeah.  remember for yourself: "progv is not the right tool for anything"
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2014-07-17T06:19:44Z hitecnologys: H4ns: unless I'm absolutely definitely sure what I'm doing and I'm willing to shoot my leg otherwise. Yes, I got it.
2014-07-17T06:21:01Z hitecnologys: Do you mind against demonstration of what I have in case there are other obvious mistakes in my design?
2014-07-17T06:21:52Z H4ns: if you're asking for a code review, then no.  i don't have time for that.
2014-07-17T06:23:14Z hitecnologys: Not really code review, just quick look at the code I mentioned that used PROGV. OK then. I'll get back to coding.
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2014-07-17T06:23:47Z H4ns: paste a url
2014-07-17T06:24:20Z hitecnologys: https://bitbucket.org/HiTECNOLOGYs/isol/src/cd02b8047e3204a8573163c42e4de25c1abfcf35/src/base/?at=develop
2014-07-17T06:25:03Z hitecnologys: Damn, it's private. Wait a second.
2014-07-17T06:25:09Z hitecnologys: Now it should work.
2014-07-17T06:25:11Z H4ns: what file?
2014-07-17T06:25:42Z hitecnologys: Oops, didn't link a file, sorry. src/base/scenes.lisp
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2014-07-17T06:26:37Z hitecnologys: It's always like that, I ask for help and then screw it all up.
2014-07-17T06:27:24Z H4ns: i can't see anything abnormal in that file.  i'd have stylistic comments but as you're doing it for yourself, i keep them to myself
2014-07-17T06:27:49Z H4ns: oh, an explicit run-time type check.  rarely a sign of good design :)
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2014-07-17T06:37:45Z hitecnologys: > Yeah, run-time type checking is a kind of thing I'm trying to get rid of now by redesigning map format.
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2014-07-17T06:45:00Z hitecnologys: So, I should get rid of list of variables and only bind the ones I really need (like *GAME* and *KEYS*) and pass all the other parameters as arguments or let bindings inside the function that is being used as scene dispatcher? Apology for being so annoying.
2014-07-17T06:46:28Z H4ns: yes.  i'd also reduce the number of special variables to a minimum (maybe one *context*).  it makes it much easier to grasp the full state of a system if it is grouped into one object, and it is also easier to reset to a known state
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2014-07-17T06:49:09Z hitecnologys: I see. OK then, thanks for help. Having one variable -- *ENVIRONMENT* -- was, actually, my first idea of design, but over time things changed and this approach no longer seemed like an easy to imeplement. I think I should focus on implementing better stateless scenes management then instead of map related stuff.
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2014-07-17T08:44:49Z kanru: where is cl-irc now hosted? I think many project hosted on c-l.net svn are inaccessible now..
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2014-07-17T08:55:32Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/search?q=cl-irc&ref=cmdform - second link i guess
2014-07-17T08:56:05Z jackdaniel: and there is 0.9.1 even near the bottom of the list
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2014-07-17T09:02:27Z kanru: the second one is old, the 0.9.1 one has only one commit
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2014-07-17T09:03:31Z jackdaniel: you're welcome ;-)
2014-07-17T09:03:50Z jackdaniel: well, i wouldn't try to rewrite svn history when forking to git
2014-07-17T09:03:55Z jackdaniel: im too lazy for that
2014-07-17T09:04:09Z jackdaniel: i think fork author thinks the same
2014-07-17T09:05:23Z jackdaniel: and you can download sources with quicklisp anyway
2014-07-17T09:06:04Z kanru: sure. just want to know if there is any new development
2014-07-17T09:06:14Z kanru likes to browse histories
2014-07-17T09:06:25Z hitecnologys: kanru: no, the development has stopped years ago.
2014-07-17T09:06:44Z kanru: I think 0.9.1 is fairy recent
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2014-07-17T09:07:36Z hitecnologys: kanru: no, not very recent.
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2014-07-17T09:07:57Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/MrNeutron/cl-irc/blob/master/ChangeLog
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2014-07-17T09:08:12Z hitecnologys: My archive of 0.9.1 is two years old.
2014-07-17T09:08:43Z kanru: I consider two years "recent" in most lisp libraries development history :P
2014-07-17T09:09:16Z jackdaniel: archive != development, or (not (eql archive development)) ^_^
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2014-07-17T09:10:26Z hitecnologys: jackdaniel: archive was downloaded from c-l.net as a snapshot of SVN repository. If nobody hasn't updated cl-irc since 2012-09-23, then 0.9.1 is the latest version and it's almost 2 years old.
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2014-07-17T09:11:00Z hitecnologys: jackdaniel: maybe it's even older because archive could be made not immediately after release.
2014-07-17T09:11:17Z jackdaniel: hitecnologys: ok, i just assumed that you have checked how file on your hdd is old - development could have stalled earlier, thats what i meant
2014-07-17T09:11:22Z jackdaniel: that
2014-07-17T09:11:23Z jackdaniel: :D
2014-07-17T09:11:29Z hitecnologys: I see.
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2014-07-17T09:43:23Z joe-w-bimedina: hey White_Flame:  its Joe:)
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2014-07-17T10:17:51Z moore33: A nice exposition of generic functions: http://nbviewer.ipython.org/gist/StefanKarpinski/b8fe9dbb36c1427b9f22
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2014-07-17T10:28:09Z schjetne: It would be interesting to see if Julia can easily be made to make remote references and calls to CL programs
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2014-07-17T10:37:26Z hitecnologys: I remember I used to call functions from macros at compile time and it worked well, now I can't seem to make it work. Is it just me being idiot or something changed?
2014-07-17T10:37:44Z H4ns: hitecnologys: eval-when
2014-07-17T10:37:47Z jdz: hitecnologys: CL most probably did not change
2014-07-17T10:37:55Z hitecnologys: H4ns: tried. Doesn't seem to work.
2014-07-17T10:38:06Z H4ns: hitecnologys: you're doing it wrong.
2014-07-17T10:38:27Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: define the function in a file that is loaded before your macro expansion or pack the function definition into an eval-when as h4ns said.
2014-07-17T10:39:17Z hitecnologys: Hmm.
2014-07-17T10:39:42Z hitecnologys: Interesting. I didn't change anythig and it started working. I guess it's just afraid of power of #lisp.
2014-07-17T10:40:12Z H4ns: hitecnologys: restart your lisp, it won't work then.
2014-07-17T10:40:14Z Shinmera: More likely the second time you tried to expand the macro the function was defined.
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2014-07-17T10:40:22Z hitecnologys: H4ns: yes, I did.
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2014-07-17T10:40:47Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I even open new terminal specially for that.
2014-07-17T10:41:05Z hitecnologys: Works twice in a row. Weird.
2014-07-17T10:41:27Z hitecnologys: Thanks for help.
2014-07-17T10:42:14Z hitecnologys: :compile-toplevel is enough for it to work correctly, right?
2014-07-17T10:42:36Z Shinmera: THere's no reason not to always use all three
2014-07-17T10:42:44Z Shinmera: (except for very very rare cases)
2014-07-17T10:43:07Z H4ns: +1
2014-07-17T10:43:10Z hitecnologys: Can you provide examples of such a rare cases?
2014-07-17T10:43:15Z Shinmera: No.
2014-07-17T10:43:38Z hitecnologys: How do I tell it's a rare case then?
2014-07-17T10:44:08Z Shinmera: It's rare because I can't provide examples.
2014-07-17T10:44:18Z H4ns: hitecnologys: http://fare.livejournal.com/146698.html
2014-07-17T10:44:18Z hitecnologys: I see.
2014-07-17T10:44:31Z Shinmera: And H4ns beat me to posting that, yes
2014-07-17T10:44:44Z jdz: hitecnologys: if your helper functions for the macro are only used for macroexpansion, and you are delivering, you can skip :load-toplevel
2014-07-17T10:44:45Z hitecnologys: H4ns: oh, thanks.
2014-07-17T10:45:14Z hitecnologys: jdz: yes, they're only used for decomposition of macro code.
2014-07-17T10:45:27Z H4ns: still no good reason
2014-07-17T10:45:47Z jdz: except if one likes surprises
2014-07-17T10:46:02Z Shinmera: You really should not exclude any of the options unless you specifically need to do so due to the effect it causes.
2014-07-17T10:46:03Z jdz: like the one that started this conversation
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2014-07-17T10:52:04Z Shinmera: I've looked around already, but I don't suppose someone knows of a smart trick that lets me add a slot to a class without having to redefine the entire class?
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2014-07-17T10:53:26Z Guthur`: subclass would do it, but i doubt that's what you want
2014-07-17T10:53:38Z Shinmera: Yeah I can't subclass, I need to modify the existing class.
2014-07-17T10:54:14Z Shinmera: I was thinking of building a function that analyses the class and tries to assemble a complete new class definition, but that seems too... unstable to me
2014-07-17T10:54:17Z H4ns: i don't think there is a way, as each slot needs to be processed during finalize-class and finalizing works on a per-class level.
2014-07-17T10:54:55Z H4ns: what is it that makes you not want to redefine the class?
2014-07-17T10:55:45Z hitecnologys: I've never done it by one might try redefining initialization and finilization methods to do additional work.
2014-07-17T10:56:05Z H4ns: "wenn man keine ahnung hat, einfach mal die klappe halten"
2014-07-17T10:56:15Z Shinmera: Well for example if the class for some reason used special slot classes I wouldn't be able to properly put it together, I presume
2014-07-17T10:56:47Z Shinmera: That's a corner case of course, but it makes me uneasy nevertheless
2014-07-17T10:56:55Z H4ns: Shinmera: i'm not sure i understand.  are you constructing classes at run time? do you need to work with metaclasses that don't work properly?
2014-07-17T10:57:22Z H4ns: Shinmera: the mop is designed to allow class redefinition with existing instances being properly updated.
2014-07-17T10:58:02Z Shinmera: H4ns: I have a main program and want to allow extensions to that. One of these extensions needs an additional slot on one of the classes the core defines. However, other extensions might want to do so too, so I can't simply write a static class redefinition with my added slot as it might override the modifications of other extensions
2014-07-17T10:58:27Z Shinmera: So I need some way to simply add a slot to an existing definition
2014-07-17T10:58:44Z H4ns: Shinmera: it sounds to me as if mixins would be a proper mechanism
2014-07-17T10:59:18Z Shinmera: H4ns: I'm not sure I follow your suggestion
2014-07-17T11:00:14Z H4ns: Shinmera: mixins are a style of subclassing that is often used when a base class needs to be augmented with one or more additional layers of functionality.
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2014-07-17T11:00:52Z H4ns: Shinmera: changing an existing class definition seems to be a rather heavy handed and overly clever approach in any case.
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2014-07-17T11:02:31Z Shinmera: H4ns: From what I can gather from the wikipedia entry mixins deal with method combination rather than slots, or am I misunderstanding?
2014-07-17T11:03:13Z jdz: Shinmera: mixins have nothing to do with method combination, really
2014-07-17T11:03:28Z H4ns: Shinmera: you misunderstand.  mixins are just a technique that is used in object systems that support multiple inheritance
2014-07-17T11:04:07Z Shinmera: Alright..
2014-07-17T11:04:13Z H4ns: Shinmera: in such object systems, you can compose a class from multiple other classes.  when you have a base class and a number of auxilary classes, you get what is called mixin style
2014-07-17T11:04:35Z Shinmera: If I comprehend correctly your suggestion is to push a subclass onto the core's class?
2014-07-17T11:04:45Z Shinmera: *superclass
2014-07-17T11:04:57Z Shinmera: As in, the extension defines a class with the slot and sets it as a superclass of the core's class
2014-07-17T11:04:58Z H4ns: Shinmera: you don't "push" classes, you inherit from them.
2014-07-17T11:05:15Z H4ns: Shinmera: not quite.  the mixin typically does not have a superclass.
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2014-07-17T11:05:51Z H4ns: Shinmera: rather, you have a base class and a number of unrelated mixins, and you create a new class the inherits from the base and one or more mixin classes
2014-07-17T11:06:43Z H4ns: Shinmera: the mixin classes can have slots if required, but they can also be empty and only serve to make the composite have the appropriate type for method selection.
2014-07-17T11:07:11Z Shinmera: Right, but that would still require the core's class to inherit from the mixin the extension defines, right?
2014-07-17T11:07:20Z Shinmera: Since I cannot make the extension force the core to use a different class.
2014-07-17T11:07:47Z H4ns: Shinmera: right.  you need to have the application instantiate the composite, not the base.
2014-07-17T11:07:58Z H4ns: Shinmera: remember that there is change-class and it works beautifully
2014-07-17T11:08:33Z Shinmera: That would work indeed.
2014-07-17T11:08:50Z H4ns: Shinmera: so if your client code absolutely must instantiate the base class, you can change the class of the instance later if you feel that this would be needed.
2014-07-17T11:09:25Z Shinmera: Well, the issue here is a bit different, if I may elaborate
2014-07-17T11:09:47Z H4ns: i'm not asking for permission for my babbling either, so go ahead :)
2014-07-17T11:10:31Z Shinmera: The class to be more specific is an extension of the asdf system class and users need to use this class in the system definition to make their systems get special treatment from my framework. So I need to have the name of the class the users need to set as their superclass be constant, nor do I think I can use change-class in this scenario.
2014-07-17T11:11:03Z Shinmera: *their system definitions
2014-07-17T11:11:39Z H4ns: i don't know asdf well enough to be able to comment specifically.
2014-07-17T11:12:22Z H4ns: but if your code is called reliably with the system instance that you like to change, change-class should work just fine.
2014-07-17T11:12:44Z Shinmera: Hm
2014-07-17T11:13:03Z H4ns: i'm pretty sure that someone who knows asdf more would be able to give you better advice, considering asdf's architecture.
2014-07-17T11:13:30Z Shinmera: Though switch-class would still have the same problem as two extensions that both need different extensions to the class would not work properly.
2014-07-17T11:13:58Z H4ns: you would need the appropriate composite classes be defined upfront.
2014-07-17T11:14:06Z H4ns: it would also be possible to compose the classes at run time
2014-07-17T11:14:14Z Shinmera: Hmm.
2014-07-17T11:14:23Z H4ns: but i smell brittle there.  i'd talk to someone who knows asdf
2014-07-17T11:15:30Z Shinmera: I think letting the extension define a class and add it to the core's parents with add-direct-superclass would work better than trying to hook into asdf and much about at run time
2014-07-17T11:15:46Z Shinmera: *muck
2014-07-17T11:16:30Z Shinmera: Though I'll have to do some testing to see if it's even feasible.
2014-07-17T11:17:05Z Shinmera: Either way, thanks for the help! I'll have to get going for now.
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2014-07-17T11:18:46Z hitecnologys: Why isn't it possible to create an instance of metaclass that contains the same data as original class but with new slots and then make instances of this instance without redefining original class?
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2014-07-17T11:22:45Z Guthur`: hitecnologys: you could but then it would not be in anyway related to the old class other than being a copy, therefore non of old applicable genfuns would dispatch for it
2014-07-17T11:23:17Z Guthur`: a little hard to see when that situation would actually be beneficial
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2014-07-17T11:24:45Z hitecnologys: Guthur`: yeah, I've already figured that out. My first impression was that typing is based on something other than class equality.
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2014-07-17T11:27:33Z Guthur`: typing certainly could be, but not dynamic dispatch; being a little pedantic
2014-07-17T11:27:33Z Guthur`: *dynamic dispatch as it exists in CLOS
2014-07-17T11:27:34Z Guthur`: you could roll something that did fancy things with types for dispatch
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2014-07-17T11:28:13Z hitecnologys: I see.
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2014-07-17T11:29:40Z moore33: Shinmera: You might consider basing your extension around generic functions and not specific classes. This is assuming that the user will be able to instantiate an object of the appropriate type.
2014-07-17T11:29:59Z Guthur`: It's kind of sutble, but understanding the distinction between CLASSes for genfun dispatch and TYPEs is worth getting
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2014-07-17T11:31:54Z Guthur`: i can dispatch on INTEGERs but not the type (INTEGER 0 10)
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2014-07-17T11:32:29Z Guthur`: ...using CLOS genfuns
2014-07-17T11:32:50Z alexander-01: hey guys anyone know a good tutorial online for writing png files using common lisp?
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2014-07-17T11:33:53Z hitecnologys: alexander-01: there are vecto for drawing and cl-png for something more low-level.
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2014-07-17T11:34:22Z H4ns: alexander-01: you can also look at cl-gd which has a manual with examples.
2014-07-17T11:34:28Z gabriel_laddel: alexander-01: There are no good tutorials for it - there are however, some examples with various libraries.
2014-07-17T11:34:44Z alexander-01: cool thanks guys ..
2014-07-17T11:36:01Z hitecnologys: alexander-01: vecto has quite nice manual with pictures and examples, you might want to start with that.
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2014-07-17T11:38:35Z H4ns: alexander-01: vecto is for creating vector pngs.  if that is the sole requirement, it is very good.  if you need something like blitting, reading images, compositing or format conversion, cl-gd might be more suitable.
2014-07-17T11:39:55Z alexander-01: trying to draw a mandelbrot set .. looking at writing a ray tracer later .. and I need a way to write to a file
2014-07-17T11:40:09Z H4ns: alexander-01: cl-png will be fine for that.
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2014-07-17T11:40:54Z alexander-01: k thanks .. I love quicklisp by the way makes my life much easier
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2014-07-17T11:48:49Z Guthur`: hehe, i think vecto will do great for what i wanted as well, and i didn't even have to ask
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2014-07-17T12:12:07Z xvzf: I have a large file that evaluates for minutes. I use ECL, can I save an image of the evaluated file somehow?
2014-07-17T12:13:38Z karupa is now known as zz_karupa
2014-07-17T12:14:05Z H4ns: xvzf: support for ecl relatively hard to find.  do you have specific reasons to use it?
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2014-07-17T12:18:30Z xvzf: H4ns, it works well with nqthm, an archaic theorem prover
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2014-07-17T12:19:03Z H4ns: ah, ok.
2014-07-17T12:20:01Z Guthur`: xvzf: how large is the file?
2014-07-17T12:20:17Z Guthur`: do you think it's an IO problem, or the reading being slow?
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2014-07-17T12:20:57Z xvzf: Guthur`, some 9000 lines
2014-07-17T12:21:37Z xvzf: Guthur`, sorry, 1500 lines
2014-07-17T12:21:58Z stanislav idly wonders if it would be hard to use vecto with TeX for typesetting text
2014-07-17T12:22:01Z Guthur`: that does not see overly large
2014-07-17T12:22:07Z Guthur`: see/seem
2014-07-17T12:22:19Z stanislav envies Asymptote's success and hates Asymptote's language
2014-07-17T12:22:37Z H4ns: as far as i understand, the evaluation is what takes time, not the raw loading.
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2014-07-17T12:22:43Z xvzf: Guthur`, but it uses the underlying nqthm theorem prover and that makes it into the minutes
2014-07-17T12:23:58Z Guthur`: ah, looks like there wont be any simple solution, you'd need to profile and optimize something
2014-07-17T12:24:09Z H4ns: or use a virtual machine that can be suspended to disk :)
2014-07-17T12:24:27Z Guthur`: hehe, yep that would do it
2014-07-17T12:24:30Z H4ns: or a faster computer.  or a faster compiler.
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2014-07-17T12:27:59Z xvzf: H4ns, isn't there a standard function in common lisp that saves the state of the compiler? in ML that is possible
2014-07-17T12:28:29Z H4ns: xvzf: no, that is implementation specific.
2014-07-17T12:28:50Z H4ns: xvzf: most implementation have a way to save an image, but i've never used ecl so i don't know whether and how it would work there.
2014-07-17T12:29:06Z Guthur`: but going by the discussion i seen earlier ECL should have it
2014-07-17T12:29:16Z hitecnologys: I have a problem that I cannot generalize. May I ask a question with specific example?
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2014-07-17T12:29:33Z xvzf: H4ns, Guthur` I check it
2014-07-17T12:29:36Z H4ns: hitecnologys: join the club that joe-w-bimedina founded
2014-07-17T12:29:53Z H4ns: hitecnologys: if they can do it, so can you :)
2014-07-17T12:30:36Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I'm sorry, I tried really hard but still can't find a way to express it using appropriate terms.
2014-07-17T12:30:50Z H4ns: hitecnologys: get on with it and ask the real question now.
2014-07-17T12:31:09Z Guthur`: H4ns is eager to answer more, he's on a roll
2014-07-17T12:31:23Z H4ns: Guthur`: "compiling"
2014-07-17T12:31:57Z Guthur`: must be a large program, or C++, hehe
2014-07-17T12:31:58Z H4ns: 2014-07-17 12:31:47: 141,000 records flushed, 2,350 records/second *sigh*
2014-07-17T12:32:15Z Guthur`: ah compiling data
2014-07-17T12:33:24Z hitecnologys: I have a function that does lookup on hash table and SETF-function for it but now I need to do something on the value that this function looks up using another function. (do-op (loopup 'foo)) doesn't seem to work even if I inline it. Using macro sounds like an overkill. I know the answer is somewhere close and I even may know it but I can't seem to remember how I used to deal with such things before.
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2014-07-17T12:34:52Z H4ns: you want (lookup 'foo) to be a place?
2014-07-17T12:35:08Z hitecnologys: I want do-op treat it like one, yes.
2014-07-17T12:35:31Z hitecnologys: And I don't want to involve SETF.
2014-07-17T12:35:35Z H4ns: why not?
2014-07-17T12:36:31Z hitecnologys: I'm doing modular increment so I'd like my mod-incf behave like original one.
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2014-07-17T12:37:03Z H4ns: if you want to operate on places, you need to write macros or use setf.
2014-07-17T12:37:29Z Guthur`: setf is quite explicit about the fact your mutating something as well
2014-07-17T12:37:37Z Guthur`: your/you're
2014-07-17T12:38:35Z Guthur`: but if you want to increment by a number then (incf place (mod place))
2014-07-17T12:38:45Z Guthur`: if that is what you meant
2014-07-17T12:39:20Z hitecnologys: Guthur`: SETF is explicit, but I'm to lazy to write (setf (lookup
2014-07-17T12:39:22Z hitecnologys:  'foo) (do-op (lookup 'foo))).
2014-07-17T12:39:24Z hitecnologys: Damn.
2014-07-17T12:39:41Z hitecnologys: Sorry, accidentally hit return.
2014-07-17T12:39:54Z Guthur`: well if you are really incrementing a number use incf
2014-07-17T12:40:22Z splittist: hitecnologys: or write do-opf
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2014-07-17T12:40:57Z H4ns: or avoid mutation
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2014-07-17T12:41:36Z Guthur`: it tends to maintain a higher level of sanity
2014-07-17T12:43:03Z hitecnologys: I think I'll stick to macro, if that's acceptable in my case.
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2014-07-17T12:43:33Z hitecnologys: At least INCF seems to be macro.
2014-07-17T12:43:48Z Guthur`: yeah, but it's a macro everyone knows
2014-07-17T12:44:18Z Guthur`: do-opf is not, not to say that it's inappropriate, but they are not really equal
2014-07-17T12:44:25Z hitecnologys: MOD-INCF isn't something which behavious is hard to guess, I assume.
2014-07-17T12:45:01Z hitecnologys: Oh, no DO-OPF was my poor attempt to abstract the problem away.
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2014-07-17T12:45:26Z hitecnologys: Forget about DO-OP, it's not a real name of function of course. I'm not yet completely insane.
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2014-07-17T12:46:12Z moore33: The "f" suffix does tend to indicate that you are doing something to a place.
2014-07-17T12:46:44Z hitecnologys: moore33: yes, I get it.
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2014-07-17T12:47:34Z hitecnologys: Thanks for help. I think I've exhausted my questions limit today, will try not to bother you anymore.
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2014-07-17T12:53:19Z moore33: hitecnologys: I encourage you to write a real setf expander in order to avoid side effects.
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2014-07-17T12:54:05Z moore33: Good practice too.
2014-07-17T12:54:26Z therik: in weblocks, is there a way to write something into repl? kinda like live logging?
2014-07-17T12:55:00Z H4ns: (format t "foo~%") maybe?
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2014-07-17T12:55:14Z H4ns: or does weblocks mess with *standard-output*?
2014-07-17T12:55:28Z therik: it does
2014-07-17T12:55:47Z H4ns: (format *terminal-io* "foo~%") could work.  or *trace-output*
2014-07-17T12:56:07Z hitecnologys: moore33: but then I would need to write (setf place (mod-incf place n)) instead of (mod-incf place n). What nasty side effects `(setf ,place (mod (+ ,place ,n) ,divisor)) can possibly make?
2014-07-17T12:56:24Z therik: format t prints nothing, also tried printing in: *terminal-io*,*debug-io*,*query-io*,*standard-output*,*trace-output*,*error-output*
2014-07-17T12:56:27Z Guthur`: hitecnologys: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143179
2014-07-17T12:56:42Z Guthur`: i typed some of that directly into the paste so excuse any silly errors
2014-07-17T12:56:52Z Guthur`: I wonder if alexandria has this
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2014-07-17T12:57:09Z Guthur`: ...or something similar
2014-07-17T12:57:25Z H4ns: therik: are you using slime?  did you look into your *inferior-lisp* buffer?
2014-07-17T12:57:27Z moore33: hitecnologys: Sorry, I didn't mean a setf expander. Well, I did :), but that's not correct.
2014-07-17T12:58:10Z therik: H4ns: I don't have *inferior-lisp*, probably because it
2014-07-17T12:58:17Z therik: >'s on remote machine
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2014-07-17T12:58:53Z H4ns: your printing goes to the standard output of the process on the remote system in that case.
2014-07-17T12:59:04Z hitecnologys: Guthur`: that's not precisely what I wanted. The question was more about modifying values in places, not about hash tables.
2014-07-17T12:59:16Z moore33: hitecnologys: I meant a modify macro, because evaluating place could, in general, have side effects.
2014-07-17T12:59:41Z Guthur`: hitecnologys: ah, i thought it was particular to hashtables
2014-07-17T13:00:00Z moore33: hitecnologys:define-modify-macro seems to be exactly what you want.
2014-07-17T13:00:05Z hitecnologys: moore33: I've never dealt with modify macros. They look scary. Should I really do it?
2014-07-17T13:00:17Z moore33: They won't bite :)
2014-07-17T13:00:48Z hitecnologys: OK, I'll try to write modify macro then.
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2014-07-17T13:02:20Z moore33: hitecnologys: define-modify-macro Does The Right Thing wrt to avoiding multiple evaluation of the values in an arbitrarily complicated place form.
2014-07-17T13:03:18Z hitecnologys: moore33: I see.
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2014-07-17T13:09:30Z hitecnologys: moore33: well, it wasn't all that hard. D-M-M does seem to work fine. I had to write a few new functions, though: MOD+ and MOD-, that do the same but without side-effects.
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2014-07-17T13:11:00Z moore33: Yup, it does assume that you are wrapping a function that doesn't have side effects.
2014-07-17T13:12:42Z therik: hm, I can't even find output in logs, but weblocks keep printing something in repl everytime I refresh site
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2014-07-17T13:14:24Z therik: I've got sbcl started with script that uses (sb-daemon:daemonize :exit-parent t :output .. :error .. :pidfile .. ..), then starts swank and enters endless loop
2014-07-17T13:14:57Z therik: from swank I start weblocks, yet can't find anything in that logs nor can I print into repl from weblocks
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2014-07-17T13:31:11Z xvzf: is there any clisp expert here?
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2014-07-17T13:31:25Z oleo: for you always! :)
2014-07-17T13:31:27Z oleo: lol
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2014-07-17T13:32:01Z dim: I guess our clisp expert in residence would be pjb
2014-07-17T13:32:27Z dim: xvzf: anyway, ask your question and see if someone is going to be able to answer
2014-07-17T13:32:28Z H4ns: xvzf: clisp is basically unmaintained right now.  the best open source implementations are sbcl and clozure cl.
2014-07-17T13:32:46Z dim: see, you already got a very good answer ;-)
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2014-07-17T13:33:49Z xvzf: I installed libsigsegv from package on my centos box. I did not find a clisp package even in the extra repositories so decided to install from source. upon ./configure, clisp complains of having no libsigsegv -- how can I teach him a lesson? :-)
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2014-07-17T13:35:05Z Xach: xvzf: it worked for me to follow the ./configure directions exactly
2014-07-17T13:35:16Z Xach: xvzf: did you do that? including the --with-path-to-libsigsegv bit?
2014-07-17T13:35:33Z Xach: I take that back -- I had to download from source control. 2.49 itself did not work.
2014-07-17T13:35:50Z Xach: But with 2.49+ from mercurial, following configure directions exactly worked.
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2014-07-17T13:37:05Z xvzf: Xach, I will check that long option
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2014-07-17T13:38:01Z Xach: xvzf: here's what i did: i ran a shell within emacs, split the window, and then killed and yanked from the configure output to the command line.
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2014-07-17T13:43:05Z xvzf: Xach, my clisp configure says --with-libsigsegv-prefix, but in vain. configure says "checking for libsigsegv... (cached) no, consider installing GNU libsigsegv"
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2014-07-17T13:44:33Z Xach: xvzf: Does it give installation instructions as part of the configure output?
2014-07-17T13:44:57Z xvzf: Xach, it does, I used them, also in vain
2014-07-17T13:45:16Z Xach: Ok. Sorry, that's what worked for me, I don't know what else to suggest.
2014-07-17T13:45:33Z Xach: I don't like clisp but use it very occasionally for testing.
2014-07-17T13:46:06Z Xach: Unless you want clisp for a specific important reason, you might be better off moving to a different implementation.
2014-07-17T13:46:29Z xvzf: Xach, right, thanks, I try clozure as suggested
2014-07-17T13:47:33Z Xach: clozure is a very fine implementation
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2014-07-17T13:51:19Z xvzf: Xach, for some reasons I had to do make clean before make for libsigsegv, that made the trick. And, otherwise, I needed libsigsegv-static, not the shared object.
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2014-07-17T13:53:56Z Xach: ah
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2014-07-17T13:59:29Z xvzf: Xach, now clisp runs on my machine, thanks for the help
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2014-07-17T14:01:37Z theos: xvzf try out sbcl!
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2014-07-17T14:02:06Z xvzf: theos, I have it!
2014-07-17T14:02:14Z theos: awesome!
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2014-07-17T14:47:00Z Shinmera: moore33: I cannot because the only way to do what I need with ASDF is to define a custom system class. And the extension I want needs to be able to add a system definition parameter, which translates to a slot on the class.
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2014-07-17T14:50:02Z moore33: Shinmera: I'm not familiar with extending ASDF, so probably best to follow the other advise you've received.
2014-07-17T14:50:12Z Shinmera: moore33: There are other ways to mitigate the need of adding a slot, but they lead to uglier designs and I'm trying to see if it's still possible to do it elegantly.
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2014-07-17T16:55:52Z raschwell: Hey. How much is lisp used on embedded systems?
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2014-07-17T16:58:30Z oGMo: raschwell: not a whole lot that i've heard, depending on your definition of "embedded", which is a pretty broad category nowadays
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2014-07-17T17:07:14Z jackdaniel: raschwell: till recently there were only ecl and clips for arm, where former weren't such a bad choice, but lack of threads was a killer for broad usage
2014-07-17T17:11:49Z Zhivago: rasch: Embedded just means 'funny keyboard', these days.
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2014-07-17T17:12:22Z Zhivago: The rpi reminds me of 90s unix workstations.
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2014-07-17T17:13:26Z dim: well CCL has been available on ARM for some time already, right?
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2014-07-17T17:14:31Z oGMo: imo stuff like rpi and the much faster stuff in mobile these days should have its own class and not be lumped with "embedded" .. because yeah that stuff would have blown boxes out of the water 10-15 years ago
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2014-07-17T17:16:11Z oGMo: dim: a year or couple perhaps. i was having odd issues with it recently so i'm not sure how complete or well-maintained it is
2014-07-17T17:16:27Z dim: ok, recent'ush then
2014-07-17T17:16:35Z dim: anyway we now have CCL and SBCL on ARM
2014-07-17T17:17:09Z Zhivago: I don't think they shouldn't be embedded.
2014-07-17T17:17:25Z Zhivago: But perhaps people should say 'microcontroller' if that's what they mean.
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2014-07-17T17:17:38Z oGMo: perhaps
2014-07-17T17:18:51Z oGMo: and "used on" doesn't even necessarily mean "runs on" and i think there are tools for EE and similar in lisp?
2014-07-17T17:19:10Z oGMo: but overall, i'm guessing the usage ratio remains the same
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2014-07-17T17:39:02Z FarLight: Is this room about common lisp?
2014-07-17T17:39:11Z FarLight: only
2014-07-17T17:39:12Z oGMo: yes
2014-07-17T17:39:27Z FarLight: ok
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2014-07-17T19:59:15Z jasom: oGMo: what "embedded" actually means is different from what people mean when they talk about "appropriateness for embedded"; embedded is basically software in anything not typically thought of a s acomputer.  When people talk about appropriateness for embedded though, they are typically talking about systems where one or more of the following are significanlty constrained: time, power, memory
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2014-07-17T20:00:12Z jasom: I think smartphones apps qualify under neither of those definitions, since they aren't particularly resource constrained and I think people get that a smartphone is just a mini computer.
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2014-07-17T20:01:00Z oGMo: jasom: yeah
2014-07-17T20:01:52Z oGMo: even an rpi .. you might consider "constrained" by today's standards, but it otherwise looks and acts like a regular linux box, so
2014-07-17T20:01:56Z jasom: clearly lisp implememtations can be made to run under resource constrained conditions since a pdp-8 is far more constrained than the average micro, and they had practical real-time GC in the 70s, but none of the current common lisp implementations I'm aware of really care about wasting time (in the sense of GC pauses anyway), power, or memory.
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2014-07-17T20:04:12Z jasom: I'm looking into implementing a bounded-work incremental GC on sbcl arm at the moment; it seems like the cheneygc could be adapted fairly easily to that; some codegen help is needed though.
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2014-07-17T22:16:37Z bithush: Hello. What is the recommended Lisp for Windows for a beginner? There are many implementations to choose from and it is a little overwhelming!
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2014-07-17T22:18:49Z jasom: bithush: http://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/
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2014-07-17T22:19:20Z PuercoPop: bithush: that depends on your preference. If you like GUi IDE's you could try Franz's.
2014-07-17T22:20:28Z bithush: Franz is Allegro yes?
2014-07-17T22:20:30Z jasom: bithush: http://franz.com/downloads/clp/survey <-- there's a link to what PuercoPop is talking about
2014-07-17T22:21:20Z bithush: Thank you!
2014-07-17T22:22:11Z jasom: I should make a chocolatey package for this
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2014-07-17T22:27:09Z PuercoPop: yeah allegrocl
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2014-07-17T22:33:20Z AeroNotix: Eugh, I'm trying to fix the PKGBUILD for stumpwm in the AUR
2014-07-17T22:33:23Z AeroNotix: so broken
2014-07-17T22:33:30Z AeroNotix: I fixed up cl-ppcre
2014-07-17T22:33:35Z AeroNotix: for the AUR
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2014-07-17T22:44:13Z jasom: AeroNotix: slight overkill perhaps, but you could build with quicklisp
2014-07-17T22:44:26Z AeroNotix: jasom: yeah that's what I am doing now :(
2014-07-17T22:44:30Z AeroNotix: so much easier
2014-07-17T22:44:34Z jasom: yup
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2014-07-17T22:46:44Z jasom: AeroNotix: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143184  <-- there's my generic build script from before I found cl-launch
2014-07-17T22:47:03Z AeroNotix: TIL about cl-launch
2014-07-17T22:47:13Z AeroNotix: I was really into common lisp ~1 year ago
2014-07-17T22:47:23Z AeroNotix: but then I found clojure and it was more immediately available
2014-07-17T22:48:35Z AeroNotix: was using xmonad for a while, but meh. I'm not a big fan of haskell.
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2014-07-17T22:49:43Z jcowan: The traditional advice for "How do I do enums in Lisp" is "Use symbols".  Is that now outdated?  I've googled a bit, but "enumeration" is an ambiguous term.
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2014-07-17T22:50:59Z jasom: jcowan: keywords are the most common way of doing "I need a bag of symbols" if you need them to actually correspond to values, then something like defconstant or defparameter is better
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2014-07-17T22:51:12Z jcowan nods.
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2014-07-17T22:51:55Z jcowan: The trouble with symbols, however, is that there is no way to get from the member to the type.
2014-07-17T22:52:01Z jasom: jcowan: what do you mean?
2014-07-17T22:52:22Z jcowan: If you want tos ay that a color is red, green, or blue, there is no way to construct a type corresponding to tcolor.
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2014-07-17T22:54:00Z Bicyclidine: (member red green blue)
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2014-07-17T22:54:01Z jcowan: because after alll, red could also belong to a set {red, amber, green} for traffic lights.
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2014-07-17T22:54:31Z jasom: well yeah, you could use symbols in packages for that
2014-07-17T22:54:35Z jcowan nods.
2014-07-17T22:54:35Z jasom: 'rgb::red 'rgb::blue 'rgb::green
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2014-07-17T22:54:56Z jasom: then (not (eql 'rgb::red 'traffic-light::red)) which may or may not be what you want
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2014-07-17T22:54:58Z jasom: The more traditional way of doing that would be :rgb-red :rgb-blue :rgb-green
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2014-07-17T23:01:45Z jcowan: And then the enums can have properties such as value, ordinal, etc.
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2014-07-17T23:02:40Z jasom: jcowan: if you want all of those features, then yes.  I've never needed all of those at once though.
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2014-07-17T23:03:36Z jcowan: s/variables in whatever namespace/constants in whatever package
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2014-07-17T23:04:16Z jcowan: If the symbols are in per-enum-type packages, then you can use their p-lists to carry properties about, come to think of it.
2014-07-17T23:04:26Z jcowan: TMTOWTDI
2014-07-17T23:04:32Z jasom: you could also abuse symbol properties for this though.  That's passé though.
2014-07-17T23:05:06Z jasom: If the symbols are in per-enum-type packages, then symbol-value seems a much better place to store that information...
2014-07-17T23:05:46Z jasom: If they aren't in per-enum-type packages, then you could use symbol plists to ensure uniqueness by erroring out if the same symbol gets used in more than one package.
2014-07-17T23:05:59Z jasom: s/one package/one enum
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2014-07-17T23:21:12Z jcowan: symbol-value is fine for a value, but enums may also be totally ordered, not necessarily by value.
2014-07-17T23:21:29Z jcowan: I think that's a proper use, not an abuse, of p-lists.
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2014-07-18T01:12:04Z joe-w-bimedina: In any implementation on any OS where ASDF is installable,  will (asdf::system-source-directory :package)  always pull in the correct path to a package that is in asdf:*central-registry*
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2014-07-18T01:36:19Z joe-w-bimedina:  can someone show me how to write a dotimes loop that will copy all the elements of a 3x3 array, in order, into the first row of a 3x9 array
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2014-07-18T02:55:01Z zRecursive: (ql:update-dist "quicklisp") => ") can't be destructured against the lambda list (QL-DIST::INITARG QL-DIST::VALUE), because it contains 8 elements, and exactly 2 are expected. > While executing: CCL::PREPARE-TO-DESTRUCTURE, in process listener(1). ...
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2014-07-18T03:21:19Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: aren't you a programmer?
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2014-07-18T03:22:57Z joe-w-bimedina: yea, I couldn't get that one figured out, kinda new to complex loops, someone on #opencv gave me the answer already though, thanks for your reply though:)
2014-07-18T03:23:37Z joe-w-bimedina: do you know the answer to this though? " In any implementation on any OS where ASDF is installable,  will (asdf::system-source-directory :package)  always pull in the correct path to a package that is in asdf:*central-registry*"
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2014-07-18T03:26:45Z pjb: You would have to test it on any implementation in any OS where ASDF is installable.
2014-07-18T03:27:12Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: the point is that you will never be able to figure it out, if you ask such basic programming questions on irc.
2014-07-18T03:27:51Z pjb: IIRC, you already asked one very similar question last month!  (I'm too lazy to search in the logs to prove it to you you didn't learn it).
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2014-07-18T03:31:17Z joe-w-bimedina: ok , thanks, didn't know if it was a hard fast rule or not.  did you say it was this  question I asked, I'm quite sure I didn't,  I use system-source-directory  to supply paths to my examples is why I needed to know.
2014-07-18T03:33:53Z PuercoPop: joe-w-bimedina: you try to write such a loop and then ask why it doesn't work. When iterating over an multudimensional array row-major-aref
2014-07-18T03:34:01Z PuercoPop: is your friend
2014-07-18T03:36:25Z joe-w-bimedina: PuercoPop: Thanks I got that part figured out, I'm getting better at writing complex loops but it didn't click how to write this one.
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2014-07-18T06:17:34Z theos: is there an easier way to make bindings?
2014-07-18T06:18:00Z joe-w-bimedina: drmeisters lisp...clasp and swig
2014-07-18T06:18:47Z joe-w-bimedina: clasp will be out in 2 weeks... there is a #swig freenode channel...one sec for address
2014-07-18T06:19:51Z theos: i am reading the cffi manual and its pretty good and lengthy. is there a shortcut? like some lib which creates all bindings on it's own
2014-07-18T06:19:55Z joe-w-bimedina: here it is #swig-gsoc  also if you are good at lisp you can make your own genarator for the low levelstuff
2014-07-18T06:20:13Z Bike: theos: the groveler. it's in the cffi manual.
2014-07-18T06:20:21Z joe-w-bimedina: swig does,  but just low level
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2014-07-18T06:21:11Z theos: Bike yes i read the name in the manual. thanks
2014-07-18T06:21:12Z Bike: but generally it's hard to guess what the api should be. api autogeneration is way easier with something like dbus that provides enough metadata for it
2014-07-18T06:21:42Z theos: joe-w-bimedina talking to me? :D
2014-07-18T06:21:59Z joe-w-bimedina: yea:)
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2014-07-18T06:22:52Z joe-w-bimedina: if you know c or c++, swig is pretty easy
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2014-07-18T06:25:11Z theos: oh ow. i dont know C :/
2014-07-18T06:25:48Z joe-w-bimedina: swig channel might help but if you are going to translate a language you will have to learn it
2014-07-18T06:26:09Z joe-w-bimedina: it will be worth it though:)
2014-07-18T06:26:39Z theos: they tried really hard to teach me C in school but for some reason i didnt like it :D
2014-07-18T06:28:07Z joga: now you see their wisdom and should feel sorry for them wasting their time!
2014-07-18T06:28:29Z joe-w-bimedina: that is why you learn it so you can convert things in C to lisp,  I have to convert OpenCv because waiting for the C++ program to compile messes up my programming flow
2014-07-18T06:28:52Z joe-w-bimedina: you can learn as you go though
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2014-07-18T06:30:14Z theos: i can learn C. its just that i dont want to. maybe now i have to. or i will find another way
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2014-07-18T06:31:00Z Bike: you can learn some C pretty fast just by figuring out how your cffi code works, don't sweat it
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2014-07-18T06:31:38Z joe-w-bimedina: I just try to stay out of the C environment unless it is neccessary, its not too bad , but all those caps are annoying, kinda....you should devote all your time to learning to autogenerate everything...if it takes a month you will still be ahead of schedule
2014-07-18T06:31:53Z joe-w-bimedina: probably go with groveler
2014-07-18T06:31:56Z seabot: wait, are there really people that learn lisp before C?
2014-07-18T06:32:01Z seabot: i'm like
2014-07-18T06:32:08Z seabot: really excited by that
2014-07-18T06:32:25Z theos: i am one of those people :) i love lisp!
2014-07-18T06:32:34Z seabot: did you know some other language first?
2014-07-18T06:32:46Z theos: does bash count?
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2014-07-18T06:33:41Z antoszka: nope :)
2014-07-18T06:34:32Z theos: contrary to popular belief, bash is a full fledged programming language :) its powerful!
2014-07-18T06:35:22Z antoszka: It's just such a mess.
2014-07-18T06:35:46Z joe-w-bimedina: you should look at https://github.com/3b/cl-opencl-3b and try to add functions to it the exact way he did it, that is how I learned, it was quick too
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2014-07-18T06:50:00Z theos: i see. thanks
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2014-07-18T06:57:38Z Guthur: theos: you wont really need to know that much C to use SWIG
2014-07-18T06:57:47Z Guthur: and little understanding would be beneficial
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2014-07-18T06:58:49Z Guthur: C is worth knowing at a superficial level though
2014-07-18T06:58:50Z theos: Guthur i dont mind learning just enough to make bindings :)
2014-07-18T06:59:42Z nightfly: c is worth knowing at more than a superficial level
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2014-07-18T07:11:51Z prxq: it is also relatively easy.
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2014-07-18T08:00:27Z theos: C is bland and colorless
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2014-07-18T08:01:51Z H4ns: c is something that one should be able to read and understand, like assembly code.  it is a terrible language to write code in, though.
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2014-07-18T08:02:08Z theos: ^^
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2014-07-18T08:52:24Z joe-w-bimedina: when defining a variable in a let that you know you will setf to a list later, but dont need it defined as a list until you setf it as one, is it good coding to define it as (let ((l 0)))  or (let ((l (list))) to show your intentions
2014-07-18T08:53:20Z H4ns: no.
2014-07-18T08:54:22Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks, but which one?
2014-07-18T08:54:35Z Shinmera: It's also usually not good to name a variable with a single letter.
2014-07-18T08:54:36Z H4ns: none.  (let (foo) ... (setf foo t) >..)
2014-07-18T08:55:06Z joe-w-bimedina: that was just for an example...oh
2014-07-18T08:55:13Z joe-w-bimedina: i get it
2014-07-18T08:55:26Z joe-w-bimedina:  you just let it default to nil
2014-07-18T08:55:31Z joe-w-bimedina: ...thanks:)
2014-07-18T09:00:21Z PuercoPop: (list) is nil
2014-07-18T09:00:43Z Shinmera: It evaluates to NIL but it is not NIL
2014-07-18T09:03:11Z PuercoPop: I was referring to the fact that the empty list nil.
2014-07-18T09:05:54Z Shinmera: And I was saying it's a pointless function call.
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2014-07-18T09:08:03Z PuercoPop: we appear to be in agreement
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2014-07-18T09:12:50Z Shinmera: Quite, I was merely clarifying.
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2014-07-18T09:23:49Z dim: well, with SBCL 1.2.0, (disassemble (lambda () (let ((foo)) foo))) and (disassemble (lambda () (let ((foo (list))) foo))) look quite exactly the same
2014-07-18T09:24:11Z H4ns: dim: that is probably because (list) is optimized away
2014-07-18T09:24:20Z dim: that's what I meant ;-)
2014-07-18T09:24:42Z H4ns: dim: (list) still looks bad.  it is one of the more pointless misspellings of nil that i know
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2014-07-18T09:26:11Z ggole: Since they mean the same thing, the objection is a bit weak
2014-07-18T09:26:14Z dim: I would tend to agree with you on that H4ns, but on the other hand I can see why some would call it "documentation" as it hints you that this particular nil is going to be processed as an empty list rather than a generalized boolean
2014-07-18T09:26:22Z ggole: It's poor style, I suppose.
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2014-07-18T09:26:44Z dim: now, I'm not up to speed on idiomatic spellings, and that shows here
2014-07-18T09:26:44Z Shinmera: dim: Imo the name should do that job, not the pointless assignment
2014-07-18T09:26:46Z Guthur``: (let ((foo ((lambda ())))) foo) => nil
2014-07-18T09:26:52Z Guthur``: is that a better misspelling
2014-07-18T09:26:58Z H4ns: *puke*
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2014-07-18T09:27:01Z dim: Shinmera: you have a point
2014-07-18T09:27:06Z PuercoPop: but on the spirit of intent I've seen (values) at the of functions to signal that it is only the side effect that matters
2014-07-18T09:27:39Z dim: what I really like here is the ability to just play in the REPL for a couple of seconds and know that it's compiled down to the same thing ;-)
2014-07-18T09:28:15Z Shinmera: I expected it to be optimised in SBCL, but again we're relying on the compiler to remove the 'mistake'
2014-07-18T09:28:38Z dim: yeah I agree that (let (foo) ...) is better style here
2014-07-18T09:29:09Z dim: I also agree that I'm nobody to talk about lisp coding style and idiomatic code yet, it seems to take 20 years to get there, not 2/3 years ;-)
2014-07-18T09:29:41Z dim: of course I'd read luv-slides.ps to get opinions from the field
2014-07-18T09:30:00Z Shinmera: I don't know if time is a good indicator of how good the advice is at all.
2014-07-18T09:30:24Z dim: for style, not good at all, for idiomatic, I would hope pretty good
2014-07-18T09:30:29Z Shinmera: I've heard of professors that worked in the field for decades and wrote code that made me puke to just look at it.
2014-07-18T09:30:33Z Shinmera: Not to mention wrong.
2014-07-18T09:30:45Z Shinmera: *Not to mention it was wrong
2014-07-18T09:30:56Z Shinmera: But anyway.
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2014-07-18T09:32:45Z Shinmera: Guthur``: clearly you should have written (let ((foo ((lambda () (list))))) foo)
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2014-07-18T09:34:56Z moore33: my silly style opinion: if a variable is unused until the first setq, (let (foo)...) is fine. If you are going to start treating it like a list e.g., (push 'bar foo), then (let ((foo nil)) ...) is better style.
2014-07-18T09:35:15Z Shinmera: moore33: I would do () instead of NIL
2014-07-18T09:35:23Z H4ns: moore33: i disagree.  as Shinmera points out, the name should convey the meaning.
2014-07-18T09:35:47Z moore33: In other words, nil is well understood as the empty list. Or () if you prefer.
2014-07-18T09:36:20Z moore33: H4ns: The meaning is not necessarily the type. I don't like Hungarian notation in any language.
2014-07-18T09:36:23Z H4ns: moore33: variables are automatically initialized to nil.  there is no ambiguity
2014-07-18T09:36:32Z Shinmera: H4ns: I like to use () and NIL in addition to a proper name. The former to indicate an empty list and the latter to indicate a yet to be assigned object.
2014-07-18T09:36:37Z H4ns: moore33: i don't like hungarian notation either.
2014-07-18T09:37:22Z Shinmera: H4ns: Though now that I think about it I only use that in class slots to avoid the unbound error.
2014-07-18T09:37:26Z H4ns: well, it is about style and styles differ.  i like (let (foo) ..) better than (let ((foo nil)) ...).  it is easier to read for me.
2014-07-18T09:37:55Z Shinmera: *class slots and special variable definitions
2014-07-18T09:37:59Z moore33: H4ns: I am aware of how variables are initialized, and yes, this level of style choice is personal without too much effect on readability.
2014-07-18T09:38:09Z Krystof: obviously you are all wrong.  (let ((foo)) ...) is the one true way
2014-07-18T09:38:13Z H4ns: haha
2014-07-18T09:38:26Z Shinmera: Krystof: I hope you mean (let* ((foo)) ..)
2014-07-18T09:38:43Z Krystof: I use (prog (foo) ...) myself
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2014-07-18T09:39:35Z Krystof: go implicit tagbodies
2014-07-18T09:40:15Z moore33: Krystof: I like progv...
2014-07-18T09:40:29Z H4ns: m(
2014-07-18T09:42:46Z dgrady2: the one true way is the lambda.
2014-07-18T09:42:49Z Shinmera: One thing I love about Lisp is that I don't need to read arguments about whether curly braces should be on their own lines or not.
2014-07-18T09:43:09Z Guthur``: Shinmera: it has it's on version of that
2014-07-18T09:43:18Z Guthur``: the closing parenthesis on a new line
2014-07-18T09:43:24Z Guthur``: it's horrid
2014-07-18T09:43:25Z H4ns: Guthur``: haha
2014-07-18T09:43:32Z Shinmera: Well there's no debate about that though
2014-07-18T09:43:33Z H4ns: Guthur``: no self-respecting lisp programmer does that.
2014-07-18T09:43:43Z Guthur``: yeah i see it more on elisp
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2014-07-18T09:44:00Z Guthur``: but i think i've seen it once or twice in CL as well
2014-07-18T09:44:14Z H4ns: Shinmera: on the other hand, curly brace and spacing issues can be fixed easily, but code that uses crufty leftovers from the ancient past is rather hard to fix.
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2014-07-18T09:44:40Z moore33: I only do that with eval-when, and even then I'm tempted not to.
2014-07-18T09:44:45Z Shinmera: H4ns: What I wouldn't give for a tool that could automatically upgrade code
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2014-07-18T09:45:00Z H4ns had the joy to refactor some code that used symbol plists, that was mean
2014-07-18T09:45:13Z H4ns: Shinmera: cl can't even parse itself :)
2014-07-18T09:47:11Z hitecnologys: H4ns: oh my. What kind of job requires such plists?
2014-07-18T09:48:16Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I've seen initargs done in similar style but I thought that wansn't very popular practice.
2014-07-18T09:48:20Z H4ns: hitecnologys: none.  but the smug lisp weenie who wrote the code thought that they were nicer than hash tables.  and GET is so damn concise
2014-07-18T09:48:42Z Shinmera: I used plists once to bind information to the symbol of packages so I could carry information depending on the package. Though of course that could be solved much more elegantly with a simple hash map.
2014-07-18T09:48:51Z hitecnologys: H4ns: bloody hell, I'd kill him if the code was large enough.
2014-07-18T09:49:12Z H4ns: in the end, i rewrote the program.
2014-07-18T09:49:15Z loke: H4ns: Emacs uses lots of symbol plists
2014-07-18T09:49:26Z loke: (not CL, but still. Just as annoying)
2014-07-18T09:49:42Z H4ns: loke: elisp has other issues, too.
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2014-07-18T09:49:48Z Shinmera: Does anyone know why symbol plists even came to be?
2014-07-18T09:49:49Z loke: H4ns: Tell me about it.
2014-07-18T09:49:50Z dgrady2: never understood the hate towards plists ..
2014-07-18T09:50:04Z dgrady2: they are immensely useful for various things
2014-07-18T09:50:11Z loke: H4ns: Writing a full package for Emacs tends to reveal plenty of those issues
2014-07-18T09:50:19Z Shinmera: dgrady2: note we're talking /symbol property lists/, not plist the data structure
2014-07-18T09:50:20Z H4ns: there!  for anything awful, there is someone who claims it is beautiful
2014-07-18T09:50:39Z dgrady2: Shinmera: sure, which is what i am talking to as well.
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2014-07-18T09:50:58Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: everything that can be imagined can be done if not limited by physics. I see no reasons why symbol plists couldn't exit. Apparently, someone imagined them.
2014-07-18T09:51:00Z Shinmera: I can't imagine a situation that could be solved with splists that couldn't be solved better otherwise
2014-07-18T09:51:06Z loke: dgrady2: What are they useful for which a hashmap can't do better?
2014-07-18T09:51:27Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: yeah but why are they in the standard then. I mean, they must have been used often enough for it to be included.
2014-07-18T09:51:40Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Someone must've thought that they're a great idea for some reason
2014-07-18T09:51:53Z moore33: Shinmera:They certainly come from early Lisp / AI days, when the idea of a symbol was pretty radical... and naturally people wanted to efficiently associate data with symbols.
2014-07-18T09:51:55Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: well, they're not *that* bad if used carefully.
2014-07-18T09:52:03Z loke: Shinmera: Legacy code. Plenty of things are in the standard for that reason. How else would you explain the existence of multiple functions that do the same thing?
2014-07-18T09:52:12Z moore33: And now they are still there for compatibility.
2014-07-18T09:52:20Z Shinmera: loke: I know it's because of legacy but that still doesn't explain the origin
2014-07-18T09:52:33Z dgrady2: Shinmera: they where heavily used in maclisp/zetalisp
2014-07-18T09:52:33Z H4ns: symbol plists are a thing from the past.  there are no legitimate uses for them in new code.
2014-07-18T09:52:56Z H4ns: dgrady2: right.  people use wood to fire their bathing ovens in the past as well.
2014-07-18T09:52:59Z splittist: Shinmera: I think McCarthy mentions them being a cool idea from the very dawn of Lisp somewhere
2014-07-18T09:53:04Z loke: Shinmera: what moore33 said. Back in the day, the symbol was _the_ thing you manipulated ("symbolic computing" anyone?)
2014-07-18T09:53:18Z splittist: Although I admit he probably didn't say 'cool'.
2014-07-18T09:53:23Z dgrady2: H4ns: meh... the "hate"
2014-07-18T09:53:36Z Shinmera: Alright.
2014-07-18T09:53:41Z dgrady2: as everything, everything can be abused.
2014-07-18T09:54:02Z H4ns: dgrady2: i don't care much about code that i don't have to see :)
2014-07-18T09:54:14Z Shinmera: I was hoping there was some kind of genuinely good reason that would've revealed something new to me than what I already suspected, but oh well.
2014-07-18T09:55:01Z dgrady2: and hash tables as symbol-plists tends to be slower for small loops over plists afaik
2014-07-18T09:55:08Z moore33: Shinmera: Read some early Lisp and AI papers :)
2014-07-18T09:55:12Z dgrady2: as --> as an replacement
2014-07-18T09:55:13Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I can imagine some situations where they might be used but I think there are easier ways. Symbol plists are linear so they can be implemented as arrays which may result in increased speed on devices that can't afford having linked lists.
2014-07-18T09:55:28Z H4ns: dgrady2: that's why plists are still useful.  just not symbol plists.
2014-07-18T09:56:18Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Right
2014-07-18T09:56:55Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: but I'd leave that sort of stuff to space agencies and military.
2014-07-18T09:56:59Z H4ns: hitecnologys: how would that be a particular feature of symbol plists?
2014-07-18T09:57:23Z hitecnologys: H4ns: not particular, just possible use case.
2014-07-18T09:57:28Z dgrady2: this all seems a bit like "don't use goto! use continuations!" ...
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2014-07-18T09:57:56Z dim: Shinmera: just for the kicks of it, (disassemble (lambda () (let ((foo ((lambda () (list))))) foo))) still is the same output as the 2 other variants before, now proving H4ns point ;-)
2014-07-18T09:58:29Z H4ns: dgrady2: right.  it is about tooling.  if we'd not care about our tools, we'd not be here.
2014-07-18T09:58:44Z dgrady2: H4ns: and symbol-plist is a useful tool.
2014-07-18T09:59:17Z moore33: hitecnologys: That would seem to be the worst of all possible worlds.
2014-07-18T09:59:19Z dgrady2: just like fire and wood is.
2014-07-18T09:59:41Z dgrady2: and heating your bathtub using fire and wood, is quite nice. specially outside.
2014-07-18T10:00:06Z hitecnologys: moore33: yes. I didn't say that was the best approach.
2014-07-18T10:00:34Z jdz: instead of arays, the plists should be cdr-coded
2014-07-18T10:00:44Z jdz: was that even the right term?
2014-07-18T10:00:58Z jdz: yeah, that one
2014-07-18T10:00:59Z moore33: jdz:yup.
2014-07-18T10:01:26Z dgrady2: jdz: you can cdr code arrays as well.
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2014-07-18T10:02:45Z jdz: dgrady2: oh really?
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2014-07-18T10:03:51Z dgrady2: jdz: yeah, not pretty .. but doable.  cdr coding has very little to do with "lists"
2014-07-18T10:04:26Z jdz: dgrady2: well, it has very much to do with references in tail positions
2014-07-18T10:05:04Z dgrady2: sure
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2014-07-18T10:10:20Z splittist: Shinmera: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143186
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2014-07-18T10:11:00Z Shinmera: splittist: Ah, I see. Thanks!
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2014-07-18T10:12:18Z joe-w-bimedina: I just created a huge array full of OCR data is there a way to save  it to a file, so then I can later load the file and set it to a variable
2014-07-18T10:14:14Z dgrady2: write it to a stream that is a file, and then re-read it?
2014-07-18T10:14:26Z dgrady2: or save world and be happy? :-)
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2014-07-18T10:15:08Z moore33: splittist: So symbol-name, symbol-value, and symbol-function are the newcomers :)
2014-07-18T10:16:35Z Shinmera: dim: Riddle me this, Batman! (let ((foo (first (funcall 'list ())))) foo) My code documentation excuse is that it means it first needs to be assigned some kind of list from a function call before it's used.
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2014-07-18T10:16:59Z joe-w-bimedina: can you show me a link with example,  all the data is stored in side an object,  do I print the array first and then re set the read elements back into the array,  I would like to to just write the whole contents of the variable to a file.
2014-07-18T10:17:18Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: read a lisp book.
2014-07-18T10:17:21Z dim: Shinmera: this time, the disassemble output shows a real cost
2014-07-18T10:18:06Z Shinmera: dim: Took me a while to find something that wasn't just out right ridiculous but actually wasn't optimised away. SBCL does a really fantastic job.
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2014-07-18T10:21:31Z dgrady2: joe-w-bimedina: what H4ns said ...
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2014-07-18T10:21:38Z splittist: moore33: indeed! Back in the day, characters and even some numbers were symbols...
2014-07-18T10:21:44Z dgrady2: joe-w-bimedina: (with-open-file (s #P"...") ...)
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2014-07-18T10:22:12Z dim: Shinmera: yeah... would be interesting to do the same with CCL
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2014-07-18T10:25:51Z joe-w-bimedina: I know about with-open-file but just not how to stick a variable in in it, the documentation for it doesnt detail that part
2014-07-18T10:26:09Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: you need to read a book and understand it.
2014-07-18T10:26:57Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: you cannot expect other people to tell you every single step that programming is about.  you need to learn how to interconnect the pieces. if you can't, then you cannot be a programmer.
2014-07-18T10:27:06Z Shinmera: H4ns: Given by how many times he's been told to do that already I don't see it ever happening.
2014-07-18T10:27:17Z H4ns: Shinmera: i'm also not really hoping.
2014-07-18T10:27:21Z dgrady2: ah, a reoccurring person with the same question ..
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2014-07-18T10:27:48Z H4ns: dgrady2: he's been in other channels and mailing lists for years and does not make any visible process.
2014-07-18T10:28:41Z dgrady2: joe-w-bimedina: http://www.n-a-n-o.com/lisp/save-object-10.2.lisp  there you go.
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2014-07-18T10:29:13Z Shinmera: H4ns: I recall you saying that you probably weren't the most patient person, but if you've dealt with him for years then I don't know if anyone would have any patience left.
2014-07-18T10:29:35Z H4ns: Shinmera: i'm not patient :)
2014-07-18T10:30:04Z joe-w-bimedina: since I do this 16 hours a day It may seem like I ask alot of questions, but I accomplish alot that you dont see on my own, honestly, I have an entire library full of stuff I can do and a few small questions shouldnt be a big deal
2014-07-18T10:30:21Z dim: Shinmera: by the way CCL is about as good here, the 3rd form introduces a variant already, a single pushq instruction (the 3rd form being (disassemble (lambda () (let ((foo ((lambda () (list))))) foo))))
2014-07-18T10:30:41Z dgrady2: joe-w-bimedina: how to output something to a file is one of the most trivial things to be learnt.
2014-07-18T10:30:44Z Shinmera: joe-w-bimedina: I've worked on CL for months for about as long as you say here and never had to ask in here.
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2014-07-18T10:31:16Z Shinmera: dim: Yeah, to be honest I never expected SBCL to beat as many of my tests as it did.
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2014-07-18T10:31:31Z Shinmera: Chapeau to the SBCL devs once again!
2014-07-18T10:32:37Z joe-w-bimedina: i can write alot to a file but I wasnt sure of the procees,eg do i print the contents into a file or can I go (format str "~a" variable) inside a with-open-file and shoot the whole thing in there in one shot,
2014-07-18T10:32:50Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: read. a. book.
2014-07-18T10:33:37Z dgrady2: joe-w-bimedina: what H4ns said.  and the common lisp standard about with-open-file, and format.
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2014-07-18T10:34:08Z H4ns: format is just the completely wrong tool here.
2014-07-18T10:34:23Z dgrady2: H4ns: i know, was hoping that he might learn why by reading the standard ..
2014-07-18T10:34:28Z moore33: The question is not entirely trivial, as the huge, crufty code dgrady2 posted illustrates.
2014-07-18T10:34:38Z Shinmera: joe-w-bimedina: Have you asked the alot for permission to write it to a file?
2014-07-18T10:34:41Z Shinmera: Maybe that's the problem
2014-07-18T10:34:42Z joe-w-bimedina: i just cant find tghe answer in the books i have, lol, pcl etc
2014-07-18T10:34:54Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: then  you're not reading.
2014-07-18T10:35:04Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: pcl does tell you how to read and write files.
2014-07-18T10:35:41Z dgrady2: moore33: the problem is trivial in this case, since it is just an array.  the save-object.lisp hack is well ... a hack for any kind of data, you could if i recall dump CLIM objects to disk and read them back or something nasty like that
2014-07-18T10:35:59Z dgrady2: moored: and it is an ugly hack at that
2014-07-18T10:36:37Z joe-w-bimedina: is there a link for that hack
2014-07-18T10:36:50Z moore33: dgrady2: "all the data is stored in side an object"
2014-07-18T10:37:10Z moore33: joe-w-bimedina: You really don't want it, but it's in the scrollback.
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2014-07-18T10:38:00Z joe-w-bimedina: ok i'll just research it more, sorry if I was any trouble
2014-07-18T10:38:58Z Shinmera: All the sorry in the world won't make it any less annoying.
2014-07-18T10:39:57Z Guthur: joe-w-bimedina: reading and writing to file is well covered in PCL, the object to file problem is besic serialization
2014-07-18T10:39:57Z Guthur: if the data was not in objects the serialization problem would have been even more trivial
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2014-07-18T10:41:06Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks, I just ever remember it saying how to write dat, not objects...so i dont need then (SAVE-OBJECT (list 10 20 30) "myfile.lisp")
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2014-07-18T10:43:24Z hitecnologys: I've seen Scheme implementation for ARM but has anyone seen CL? I know it's big but there's nothing wrong with external memory chips nowadays.
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2014-07-18T10:43:42Z H4ns: hitecnologys: clozure cl and sbcl run on arm.
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2014-07-18T10:44:00Z hitecnologys: H4ns: damn, typo. AVR.
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2014-07-18T10:44:24Z H4ns: hitecnologys: if you talk about 8 bit arm, then no.  not feasible.
2014-07-18T10:44:25Z hitecnologys: H4ns: sometimes I confuse abbreviations, I know it's entirely different thing. Sorry.
2014-07-18T10:44:33Z hitecnologys: Bleh.
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2014-07-18T10:44:56Z hitecnologys: What about something 16-bit or even 32-bit? PIC?
2014-07-18T10:45:03Z H4ns: possible, not done.
2014-07-18T10:45:07Z hitecnologys: I see.
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2014-07-18T10:49:27Z hitecnologys: Why isn't it possible on 8-bit? What's wrong with having two registers storing one thing (I guess it should be possible to use one register instead of two but that would complicate things)? I know it's inefficient but why not possible?
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2014-07-18T10:50:14Z H4ns: the memory requirements of cl are too large for the address space of an eight bit machine
2014-07-18T10:50:55Z fe[nl]ix: hahahaha
2014-07-18T10:51:01Z H4ns: you can certainly use cl on a real computer to compile a subset of cl into avr code.  but that will not be the same thing as running cl on an avr natively.
2014-07-18T10:51:04Z Guthur``: how many symbols are in the cl-user package
2014-07-18T10:51:07Z hitecnologys: Address can be stored in two register.
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2014-07-18T10:51:26Z hitecnologys: Or hacks like memory pages can be used.
2014-07-18T10:51:30Z H4ns: hitecnologys: you have time?  then go ahead, make it happen.  the world is waiting for it.
2014-07-18T10:51:43Z Shinmera: Is it really waiting though?
2014-07-18T10:51:51Z H4ns: ea-ger-ly
2014-07-18T10:51:53Z hitecnologys: H4ns: no, I was just wondering. I'm certainly not that kind insane.
2014-07-18T10:52:04Z H4ns: hitecnologys: it is not feasible.  as i said in the beginning.
2014-07-18T10:52:45Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I see. I must have misinterpreted it then.
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2014-07-18T10:53:58Z Guthur``: hitecnologys: you could have some system that runs the CL on a host then outputs ARM assembly language
2014-07-18T10:54:20Z H4ns: Guthur``: avr is what he's talking about.  i'm guilty of mixing it up, too, though.
2014-07-18T10:54:28Z Guthur``: would not be true CL on the micro controller though
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2014-07-18T10:54:59Z Guthur``: ah yeah sorry
2014-07-18T10:54:59Z Guthur``: s/ARM/AVR
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2014-07-18T10:56:32Z hitecnologys: Guthur``: yes, I know I can do things that would allow me to run code written in CL on microcontroller. But what I was asking is if someone has implemented full (well, not completely full with batteries included, but something close) CL for ARM.
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2014-07-18T10:56:53Z H4ns: arm or avr?
2014-07-18T10:56:59Z Shinmera: This is getting silly
2014-07-18T10:57:02Z hitecnologys: Crap.
2014-07-18T10:57:22Z hitecnologys: AVR, something is wrong with me today.
2014-07-18T10:57:28Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: indeed.
2014-07-18T10:58:09Z Guthur``: just switch to using an ARM its easier on us all
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2014-07-18T10:58:16Z theos: avr is the company. it does use arm
2014-07-18T10:58:29Z H4ns: theos: the company is called atmel
2014-07-18T10:58:41Z H4ns: but hey, let's be all confused!
2014-07-18T10:58:50Z H4ns: lol LOL LoL and what have you
2014-07-18T10:58:51Z theos: H4ns pff i was trying to confuse hitecnologys :<
2014-07-18T10:59:10Z prxq: H4ns: do you know who controls the lisp bots?
2014-07-18T10:59:16Z prxq: minion, etc
2014-07-18T10:59:17Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``etc''.
2014-07-18T10:59:19Z kym: mummie
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2014-07-18T10:59:35Z H4ns: prxq: stassats
2014-07-18T10:59:40Z prxq: ok
2014-07-18T10:59:41Z dgrady2: CL on a 16-bit or 32-bit CPU is easily doable ...
2014-07-18T10:59:45Z prxq: thanks
2014-07-18T10:59:46Z Guthur``: ah, i thought they had their own micro controller arch
2014-07-18T10:59:50Z dgrady2: anything less than that, it gets very troublesome
2014-07-18T11:00:43Z dgrady2: main problem is the addressable memory that you have ..
2014-07-18T11:01:13Z dgrady2: you could i suppose use a serial bus where you communicate and read stuff from/to ...
2014-07-18T11:01:47Z dgrady2: used to be done with some forth implementations where all you had was the loop on the target and some serial code for get-char/put-char type of thing
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2014-07-18T11:03:28Z hitecnologys: dgrady2: yes, I know. I once tried building a computer from scratch based on 65C02 but I didn't manage to find the chip itself for reasonable price so project never left papers. I tried simplifying it down to basic logic but I found that too hard so I dumped the idea.
2014-07-18T11:03:54Z dgrady2: that ain't from scratch :-)
2014-07-18T11:04:01Z hitecnologys: Indeed.
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2014-07-18T11:05:40Z dgrady2 gives hitecnologys a bag of TTLs to play with.
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2014-07-18T11:19:02Z dgrady2: when i was much younger i had the grand idea of building a CONS or CADR machine from scratch ... still have most of the parts i gathered ... couldn't find any software for it at the time though so i kinda dropped interest :(
2014-07-18T11:19:19Z Xach: foom's dad did that
2014-07-18T11:19:58Z dgrady2: oh, nice!
2014-07-18T11:20:08Z dgrady2: full machine?
2014-07-18T11:20:39Z Xach: yeah
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2014-07-18T11:20:45Z Xach: the whole shebang
2014-07-18T11:21:44Z dgrady2: crickity, any links or whatever about it?
2014-07-18T11:21:46Z Xach: http://www.computerhistory.org/chess/full_record.php?iid=stl-431614f64ea3e has a picture of it
2014-07-18T11:21:49Z dgrady2: thanks!
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2014-07-18T11:22:14Z Xach giggles
2014-07-18T11:22:27Z dgrady2: bah :-) that is a real cadr
2014-07-18T11:22:33Z Xach: yeah, and his real dad, too
2014-07-18T11:23:11Z dgrady2: i thought it was a replica! doh .. silly me!
2014-07-18T11:23:15Z p_l: lol
2014-07-18T11:23:19Z p_l: Xach: nice one :D
2014-07-18T11:23:28Z theos: (who is foom??)
2014-07-18T11:23:43Z dim: well, he's the son of one of the two guys on the picture I would assume
2014-07-18T11:24:06Z theos: oh its a user here. nice! so his dad mad something awesome? :D
2014-07-18T11:24:17Z dlowe: yeah. computer graphics.
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2014-07-18T11:25:21Z dlowe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Knight_(scientist)
2014-07-18T11:26:31Z dgrady2: Xach: now you ruined any chances of me wanting to continue working on the darn thing :-)
2014-07-18T11:26:43Z Xach: sorry! make cool stuff anyway!
2014-07-18T11:31:12Z hitecnologys: Woah. Nice stuff.
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2014-07-18T11:37:10Z dim: yeah that's pretty impressive
2014-07-18T11:38:33Z Xach: yeah, well, *I* made a website where you can make cool pixelated speech bubbles in lisp
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2014-07-18T11:41:26Z ggole: Damn overachievers
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2014-07-18T11:42:03Z Xach: guy steele timed my lightning talk at ilc 2009! *swoon*
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2014-07-18T11:43:01Z ggole: What's he doing these days anyway (after Fortress fell over and couldn't get up)?
2014-07-18T11:43:05Z Shinmera: I would say my grand achievement is this http://argh.tymoon.eu/
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2014-07-18T11:44:03Z Xach: i dig
2014-07-18T11:44:30Z prxq: ggole: which 'Fortress' is that?
2014-07-18T11:44:56Z ggole: An "HPC" language that Steele was working on for a while
2014-07-18T11:45:00Z Xach: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortress_(programming_language)
2014-07-18T11:45:06Z Shinmera: It even has a rave mode. (epilepsy warning http://argh.tymoon.eu/?c=true&r=true&b=true&bs=10&ts=15 )
2014-07-18T11:45:25Z ggole: The feature everybody remembered was fancy Latex-like pretty-printing of source code
2014-07-18T11:45:57Z prxq: ah ok :-) thanks. should have googled myself...
2014-07-18T11:45:59Z ggole: But it was a considerably more interesting than that.
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2014-07-18T11:47:20Z dgrady2: Shinmera: ahh ....
2014-07-18T11:47:37Z Shinmera: amazing, I know
2014-07-18T11:49:09Z Cymew: Did Fortress fall over? I guess it makes sense. Ity's not exactly Oracle...
2014-07-18T11:49:56Z ggole: There was a rolling up announcement a while back
2014-07-18T11:50:20Z Cymew: I must have missed that
2014-07-18T11:50:29Z Xach: Shinmera: yow
2014-07-18T11:50:52Z Cymew: Then I'm also part of the curious crowed. What is GLS doing now?
2014-07-18T11:50:52Z Shinmera: You may tweak the get parameters to your own pain threshold
2014-07-18T11:51:57Z dgrady2: Cymew: square dancing, as per usual.
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2014-07-18T12:16:10Z Cymew: I guess there are worse things
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2014-07-18T13:11:57Z grady2: did anyone ever try implementing scheme on top of cl, by frobbing the read table and such? :-)
2014-07-18T13:12:29Z p_l: dunno about frobbing readtable, but PAIP includes few scheme implementations, including implementing TCO
2014-07-18T13:12:36Z p_l: there's also a simple prolog implementation
2014-07-18T13:13:19Z grady2: mm... i was more curious about one that just modified the read table... sounds more .. fun.
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2014-07-18T13:14:05Z grady2: good weekend hack ... hence the question
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2014-07-18T13:14:55Z p_l: grady2: you could combine the two :)
2014-07-18T13:15:01Z Xach: Pseudoscheme is a scheme in cl
2014-07-18T13:15:04Z Xach: it doesn't build, though
2014-07-18T13:16:33Z grady2: nifty
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2014-07-18T13:41:52Z Shinmera: H4ns: I think I can resolve my asdf/class problem better with a different design approach. My experiments with clos/mop have shown me it's not worth the effort to try and persue the extra slot idea.
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2014-07-18T13:42:53Z H4ns: Shinmera: i had that impression.  using mop is always a bit heavy handed.
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2014-07-18T13:48:35Z Shinmera: Every time I dig around the asdf source I can't help but wonder how anyone can keep this monstrosity of a system neatly in their head.
2014-07-18T13:50:07Z grady2: easy ... by not doing that :-)
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2014-07-18T13:51:17Z Shinmera: I'm just paying my respects to anyone who has to maintain it.
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2014-07-18T13:54:08Z nicdev: Shinmera: I have not looked at asdf closely but I thought Fare has put some work to modularize it and then concats it into one file at build time
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2014-07-18T13:54:45Z Shinmera: nicdev: I know that, I'm talking about the way asdf works as an architecture and software system.
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2014-07-18T13:55:15Z Shinmera: nicdev: Navigating the source isn't too hard even if it's one big file. I'm just wondering how one could keep it all together in their mind
2014-07-18T13:55:24Z jdz: fare has also done a lot of work on making it self-update compatible
2014-07-18T13:55:35Z jdz: that's probably the biggest challenge
2014-07-18T13:55:37Z Xach: I have a printout of the sources but I have yet to get through them.
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2014-07-18T13:57:48Z Cymew: Interesting to hear I'm not th eonly one who uses pen and paper to get a grasp of something like that
2014-07-18T13:58:31Z nicdev: I took a shot at the video walk through he has of asdf and I did not get much from it. a bit was above me, maybe another time in the future
2014-07-18T13:58:32Z Shinmera: I don't know if it's just me, but every time I've had a dive into ASDF due to some extension that I wanted to add I've ended up either going half insane or feeling like I'm reading some kind of grimoire.
2014-07-18T13:59:26Z Cymew: :)
2014-07-18T14:00:01Z Cymew: Fare is never very brief when writing either, which makes him a bit hard to grasp, I feel.
2014-07-18T14:00:24Z Cymew: Sorry, is topic hard to grasp, I meant. Naturally.
2014-07-18T14:00:54Z Cymew: oops, time to run for the train
2014-07-18T14:01:46Z Guthur```: talking of ASDF...
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2014-07-18T14:03:44Z Guthur```: is there away to bind a variable during the loading of system, in particular i want to bind cffi:*foreign-library-directories*
2014-07-18T14:03:44Z Guthur```: i imagine i could do some eval-when in the asd file
2014-07-18T14:03:44Z Guthur```: but was wondering if there is a more elegant solution
2014-07-18T14:04:58Z Xach: There is a way. It was discussed at length on the list. I don't know the details, sorry.
2014-07-18T14:05:11Z Xach: mumble mumble around-component or something.
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2014-07-18T14:05:42Z Xach: But how to make sure cffi is defined in time?
2014-07-18T14:06:16Z Shinmera: Guthur```: you might be able to do something like (defmethod asdf:operate :around ((op asdf:load-op) (system asdf:system) &key) ..)
2014-07-18T14:06:22Z Guthur```: yeah that's the key
2014-07-18T14:06:32Z Shinmera: But yeah Xach raises a good point
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2014-07-18T14:06:42Z Shinmera: I'd have to dig around again to find if there's a better method to bind around. Probably.
2014-07-18T14:08:22Z Guthur```: asdf-flv...maybe
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2014-07-18T14:57:58Z joe-w-bimedina: I have a type defined I created myself with define-foreign-type and it has an "actual-type of :pointer. The name of it is Vec3b. It is a wrapper for the OpenCv Vec3b class, In c++, sizeof(Vec3b) = 3,  Since in CFFI, (eq (foreign-type-size :pointer) 8)  how can I change my type so the that the size is 3 instead of 8 so my code will work right?
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2014-07-18T15:00:12Z brown``: joe-w-bimedina: sizeof(x) == 3 is very odd.  Are you sure about that?
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2014-07-18T15:01:06Z jdz: joe-w-bimedina: Vec3b is apparently not a pointer
2014-07-18T15:01:24Z joe-w-bimedina: yea, I did a sizeof(Vec3b) and it was 3, it is a wrapper for a 3 element C++ Vector<uchar>
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2014-07-18T15:02:11Z jdz: joe-w-bimedina: so then why are you talking about pointer sizes?
2014-07-18T15:02:49Z joe-w-bimedina: my define-foreign-type for Vec3b has an actual-type of pointer
2014-07-18T15:03:02Z jdz: joe-w-bimedina: why?
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2014-07-18T15:03:40Z joe-w-bimedina: wasnt sure of my option, could use advice on wrapping this type,
2014-07-18T15:03:47Z joe-w-bimedina: wasnt sure of my options, could use advice on wrapping this type,
2014-07-18T15:04:57Z jdz: joe-w-bimedina: your only option is to read the documentation and see how to create the type you need, not something else you know how to do
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2014-07-18T15:06:11Z joe-w-bimedina: well I could create a defcstruct with a :size of 3 but that leads me to another question, can I show you guys a gist real quick on it
2014-07-18T15:09:06Z grady2: no
2014-07-18T15:10:16Z joe-w-bimedina: well this is my type: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/2590f83cca7ce672f40c for Vec3b and it has a defclass it interfaces with there already, should I replace that with a defcstruct with a :size param of 3  and if so what do I do with my c-pointer declaration?
2014-07-18T15:10:27Z H4ns: grady2: he can't read.
2014-07-18T15:10:37Z grady2: H4ns: i know.
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2014-07-18T15:11:57Z joe-w-bimedina: jdz: can you look at the gist for me in reference to my latest question?
2014-07-18T15:12:36Z jdz: joe-w-bimedina: i did look, and that's exactly what i suggested you do not do
2014-07-18T15:13:13Z jdz: joe-w-bimedina: you know there's a difference in C between Vec3b and *Vec3b?
2014-07-18T15:13:33Z jdz: uh, Vec3b*
2014-07-18T15:14:04Z joe-w-bimedina: my return in my c wrapper for Vec3b is Vec3b*
2014-07-18T15:14:28Z jdz: joe-w-bimedina: just throw what you have out the window, and do it properly
2014-07-18T15:14:41Z H4ns: jdz: if i may make a suggestion?
2014-07-18T15:14:52Z jdz: H4ns: always
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2014-07-18T15:15:25Z H4ns: jdz: if i promise that i will never ever respond to him, will you do it too? :)
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2014-07-18T15:15:35Z joe-w-bimedina: that CFFI doc. is so cryptic, can you show me which part I should try and brush up on? or give me advice on how to change it?
2014-07-18T15:16:31Z grady2: joe-w-bimedina: of course it is cryptic if you don't bother reading it.
2014-07-18T15:16:38Z jdz: H4ns: i've seen you mention him being a lost cause, even though i've probably missed most of it
2014-07-18T15:16:58Z H4ns: jdz: if you're interested, have a look at the cffi-devel archive
2014-07-18T15:17:16Z jdz: H4ns: haha, i sense a tarp
2014-07-18T15:17:53Z joe-w-bimedina: I read it twice, but still don't get how it applies to what I am doing, thats why i amasking for pointer here
2014-07-18T15:18:03Z joe-w-bimedina: am asking
2014-07-18T15:18:03Z jdz: well, i tried to help, so my job here is done, then
2014-07-18T15:18:37Z joe-w-bimedina: all right, well thanks anyways
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2014-07-18T15:19:09Z Shinmera: H4ns: I can promise not to help, but I can't promise not to make snarky remarks.
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2014-07-18T15:19:25Z H4ns: Shinmera: :)
2014-07-18T15:19:39Z H4ns: Shinmera: i have the same problem.
2014-07-18T15:19:42Z jdz: gotta maintain the toxicty levels!
2014-07-18T15:19:53Z jdz: toxicity even
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2014-07-18T18:24:54Z mr-foobar: this is probably a stupid question, but are lambdas and goto's equivalent (formally) ?
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2014-07-18T18:26:04Z oleo: lambdas are blocks, gotos are jumps between them....
2014-07-18T18:26:18Z billstclair: Only in a tail-call lisp are lambdas at all like gotos. That would be Scheme and some lisps, but it's not specified for Common Lisp. Lambda is sort of like goto with arguments and a continuation (where to deliver the results)
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2014-07-18T18:27:36Z billstclair: It's easier, though, for most people to think of lambda as an anonymous function
2014-07-18T18:27:55Z mr-foobar: to put it another way, can gotos do something that lambda/function calls can't ?
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2014-07-18T18:30:21Z mr-foobar: my confusion arises mainly because, i have created a hashmap of functions.
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2014-07-18T18:31:08Z mr-foobar: return value of each function is a "name", which can be looked up in the map, and then I call it.
2014-07-18T18:31:23Z mr-foobar: it feels goto-ish that's all
2014-07-18T18:32:10Z phadthai: I see no problem if those functions always return instead of directly calling other functions in the map
2014-07-18T18:33:06Z phadthai: something which jumps could allow without caring about stack growth
2014-07-18T18:33:38Z mr-foobar: there's a main loop though, on start it starts calling a function, from return-value then another ...
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2014-07-18T18:35:41Z mr-foobar: it's a dispatch-table (common pattern) + lookup-and-call-function with previous functions return value.
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2014-07-18T18:36:01Z phadthai: yes, that seems fine to me
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2014-07-18T18:36:07Z Oberon4278: d'oh
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2014-07-18T18:36:19Z mr-foobar: cool. is there a name for this pattern ?
2014-07-18T18:37:11Z mr-foobar: return value = ("foo" 1 2) and I look up foo explicitly
2014-07-18T18:38:11Z mr-foobar: i find it new because I can add tracing for in and out for every function.
2014-07-18T18:38:18Z phadthai: I've implemented finite state machines on this model, surely that a few other problems/patterns with other names also fit that model though
2014-07-18T18:39:09Z mr-foobar: ah neat I was used to the if/else/switch pattern
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2014-07-18T18:42:56Z phadthai: alternatively, in Lisp, if those functions were not anonymous, instead of using a hash map, a package could be used with actual symbols, with functions returning a symbol, and funcall calling the symbol (a package is usually internally implemented using a hash table, and symbol access/references are often optimized using internal indexes in a vector)
2014-07-18T18:43:17Z phadthai: and a symbol is a valid function designator
2014-07-18T18:44:05Z phadthai: with the same type of main control loop
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2014-07-18T18:44:37Z mr-foobar: wow, awesome !
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2014-07-18T18:47:16Z phadthai: direct function references with #' or (function  could also be returned and funcalled, but those would be less friendly to dynamic interactive development (as the compiler could internally really use direct function calls then)
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2014-07-18T18:51:44Z phadthai: s/would be/could be/
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2014-07-18T19:38:46Z samebchase: What's the method to pretty print closure-templates? It is printing the entire html on a single line
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2014-07-18T19:57:32Z 
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2014-07-18T19:57:32Z names: gingerale tajjada alexherbo2 fortitude DrCode Hydan Khisanth Mon_Ouie EvW tali713 LiamH jdoolin Karl_Dscc Harag Shinmera ggole Adlai aeth yacks seangrove schjetne the8thbit vhost- gigetoo prxq mishoo spockokt ahungry bcoburn` ferada jaimef pavlicek Bike copec Kabaka Intensity TristamWrk froggey anunnaki AntiSpamMeta ``Erik Patzy_ nydel_ lupine yeltzooo schoppenhauer mdallastella Reihar BlastHardcheese jsnell dim The_third_man redline6561 tessier_ faheem
2014-07-18T19:57:32Z names: funnel troydm tkd_ z0d tomaw yano joneshf-laptop Colleen__ `matija gensym axion decent mtd yroeht qbit dlowe nitro_idiot nightfly endou__ krrrcks_ sklr aerique_ mal_ spacebat htmzr pchrist antoszka Tristam AeroNotix joga marsam ggherdov brown`` d4gg4d___ nihilatus ered ozzloy freiksenet mikaelj nisstyre joshe Borbus peccu djinni` otwieracz |3b| sbryant Neet Anarch H4ns stokachu gko splittist rvirding superjudge_ victor_lowther ircbrowse foom renard_ eak
2014-07-18T19:57:32Z names: rotty ChibaPet fmu cpt_nemo wormphlegm xristos Kruppe oconnore jayne hyoyoung_ lemoinem rk[1] mood j_king xenophon justinmcp sigjuice_ cmbntr_ les Corey kirin` joneshf jrm Oddity cmatei hefner lifenoodles ura ecraven gabot alchemis7 MightyJoe nicdev Zhivago johs shwouchk housel inklesspen PuercoPop c74d theBlackDragon cosmicexplorer gniourf jasom nightshade427 optikalmouse ck_ Xach bjorkintosh sword` kyl araujo setheus GGMethos diginet eazar001 specbot
2014-07-18T19:57:32Z names: minion vlnx saarin eli __JokerDoom rtoym tkd__ vsync_ Praise seabot dseagrav_ Faed eee-blt_ kbtr_ Ober_ samebchase necronian _death sshirokov paddymahoney eigenlicht_ MrWoohoo flip214 FracV arbscht madnificent jchochl__ White__Flame quasisane yauz SHODAN p_l clop billstclair felipe nowhere_man_ cibs pillton zz_karupa uzo tbarletz _d3f jackdaniel Natch ianmcorvidae manfoo7` kanru arrdem gz_ nimiux Blkt peterhil effy njsg Mandus hzp sjl ramus _tca
2014-07-18T19:57:32Z names: honkfestival zxq9 bobbysmith007 felideon devn Nshag killmaster phf sykopomp codeburg eMBee micro` whartung TheMoonMaster cods pok_ heddwch clog manfoo7 theos msosa rvchangue Amaan QwertyDragon Krystof __main__ dfox daimrod cross mathrick_ sfa_ Adeon bhyde oGMo misv_ guaqua``` ThePhoeron gregburd wchun bcoburn replcated benny mathrick Okasu byte48 s_e ft beppu girrig_ brandonz_ jdz Vivitron mathiasx loke aksatac_ hypno_ blakbunnie27 p_l|backup dan64 Soft
2014-07-18T19:57:32Z names: finnrobi WeirdEnthusiast acieroid pjb deego scharan milosn bege InvalidCo brucem zymurgy sellout Tordek Neptu drdo shadowfax l3thal fe[nl]ix ineiros_ eagleflo jtz j0ni lonjil galdor draculus
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2014-07-18T22:32:41Z mr-foobar: is there such a thing a first class packages ?
2014-07-18T22:32:47Z mr-foobar: *as
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2014-07-18T22:39:06Z _death: packages practically are first-class
2014-07-18T22:42:15Z mr-foobar: neat
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2014-07-18T22:55:08Z |3b|: packages are normal lisp objects, same as symbols and functions
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2014-07-19T03:36:25Z endthefed: xach here?
2014-07-19T03:36:32Z endthefed is now known as poseidons-minion
2014-07-19T03:36:38Z poseidons-minion: :)
2014-07-19T03:36:50Z poseidons-minion: hows the abstraction folks?
2014-07-19T03:37:24Z poseidons-minion: anyone here running a lisp powered website?
2014-07-19T03:37:31Z kristof: common-lisp.net
2014-07-19T03:37:38Z poseidons-minion: is there a channel for coreserver or weblocks?
2014-07-19T03:37:50Z kristof: Neither, I don't think.
2014-07-19T03:37:58Z kristof: Weblocks has a little forum or whatever, doesn't it?
2014-07-19T03:38:05Z kristof: A google groups thing, I think.
2014-07-19T03:38:25Z kristof: poseidons-minion: 8arrow.org is a pretty example of a functioning common lisp website, too.
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2014-07-19T03:41:51Z poseidons-minion: woa 8 arrow
2014-07-19T03:41:57Z poseidons-minion: ningle I was checking out last month
2014-07-19T03:42:15Z poseidons-minion: I want to make websites in lisp and wonder if I am crazy.
2014-07-19T03:42:44Z poseidons-minion: I was learning some prolog and found out you can simply use prolog as the database, can lisp do that with like manardb or cl-prevalence?
2014-07-19T03:43:14Z poseidons-minion: I am baffled as to howto manipulate files and directories in common lisp sofar.
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2014-07-19T03:45:05Z H4ns: "simply" "do" "that", well.
2014-07-19T03:45:21Z H4ns: cl is a nice language and one can do neat things with it, yes
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2014-07-19T03:45:41Z kristof: We should change the title of the chan to that.
2014-07-19T03:45:46Z H4ns: you need to be more specific with your questions if you want specific answers
2014-07-19T03:46:09Z poseidons-minion: can I keep my data ina lisp image and save every minute all updates to disk?
2014-07-19T03:46:12Z kristof: Common Lisp, the #1=(nice . #1#) nice language for doing neat things with.
2014-07-19T03:46:20Z poseidons-minion: so if it stops I lose only 1 minute
2014-07-19T03:46:42Z poseidons-minion: can you explain #1=(nice, #1#) ?
2014-07-19T03:46:53Z poseidons-minion: I get what '(a b c) is
2014-07-19T03:46:54Z H4ns: poseidons-minion: that is possible, although you'll have to fork and coordinate the thread shutdown
2014-07-19T03:47:18Z poseidons-minion: forking is cheap on unix right?
2014-07-19T03:47:20Z kristof: poseidons-minion: One thing at a time. 1) You are crazy. Eitarow et al are doing neat things in the web end but there's no Ruby on Rails yet. If you want something like Sinatra, then caveman2 is good, but the documentation is still in development for all the useful middleware.
2014-07-19T03:47:22Z H4ns: poseidons-minion: you can also use an incremental scheme like cl-prevalence or bknr-datastore
2014-07-19T03:47:49Z H4ns: poseidons-minion: forking is cheap, but images are large.
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2014-07-19T03:48:21Z kristof: poseidons-minion: 2) You have a lot of database solutions. If you need a real database, postmodern is nice.
2014-07-19T03:48:24Z poseidons-minion: what is the point of rails? why do people love it so much? it seems to be a bad database generator or something, there were mad performance problems at the rails shop I worked at but they used mysql so maybe they have no one to blame but themselves
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2014-07-19T03:48:36Z kristof: poseidons-minion: If you don't know how to manipulate files, read Practical Common Lisp.
2014-07-19T03:48:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-07-19T03:48:58Z poseidons-minion: hopefully it would be like a lot of "diffs" of 1 minute and maybe a whole image dump at midnight
2014-07-19T03:49:06Z kristof: Good evening beach :)
2014-07-19T03:49:27Z H4ns: poseidons-minion: people love rails because it is a complete framework with documentation that makes it easy to write crud applications.
2014-07-19T03:49:45Z poseidons-minion: hm
2014-07-19T03:49:50Z H4ns: poseidons-minion: dump+diff is what i use in my bknr-datastore based web sites.  works well.
2014-07-19T03:50:02Z kristof: Well engineered and predictable is a better way to describe it.
2014-07-19T03:50:29Z beach: poseidons-minion: Check out clobber: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Clobber
2014-07-19T03:50:30Z H4ns: poseidons-minion: quickhoney.com runs off a lisp backend that does persistence and image processing
2014-07-19T03:51:21Z beach: poseidons-minion: Clobber makes it easy to do keep stuff in memory and generate a transaction log on disk.
2014-07-19T03:51:39Z H4ns: beach: your description of clobber reads as if the prevalence-inspired systems use no transaction log.
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2014-07-19T03:52:06Z beach: H4ns: Hmm.  That's unintentional.
2014-07-19T03:52:26Z H4ns: beach: as far as i remember, cl-prevalence only has logging, and bknr-datastore has logging as the base and snapshots optional, for the object persistence layer.
2014-07-19T03:53:03Z poseidons-minion: clobber sounds more than awesome
2014-07-19T03:53:42Z poseidons-minion: prevalyer is supposed to have log and a full image dump
2014-07-19T03:53:46Z kristof: poseidons-minion: Don't be expecting to use clobber if you don't know how to open a file yet.
2014-07-19T03:53:49Z antonv: H4ns: beach: cl-prevalence also has snapshots
2014-07-19T03:53:50Z poseidons-minion: I think cl-prevalence does that
2014-07-19T03:53:57Z poseidons-minion: lol
2014-07-19T03:54:04Z poseidons-minion: <---cart b4 horse ok
2014-07-19T03:54:05Z beach: H4ns: What antonv says.
2014-07-19T03:54:26Z poseidons-minion: ok but will common lisp ever feel as simple as shell and stuff?
2014-07-19T03:54:27Z H4ns: beach: right.  but the transaction log is the core of it. like with clobber.
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2014-07-19T03:54:53Z beach: H4ns: I don't read my description as meaning that only Clobber has a log.
2014-07-19T03:55:05Z beach: Let's see what others say.  :)
2014-07-19T03:55:29Z kristof: poseidons-minion: Complex problems require complex solutions. Should airplanes be easy enough for 6 year olds to polite?
2014-07-19T03:56:00Z poseidons-minion: no
2014-07-19T03:57:19Z poseidons-minion: but wait a second
2014-07-19T03:57:27Z poseidons-minion: wont airlines be automated completly in the future?
2014-07-19T03:57:39Z poseidons-minion: eg complexity abstracted away
2014-07-19T03:57:50Z poseidons-minion: put in destination, and press button?
2014-07-19T03:58:57Z beach: poseidons-minion: Off topic, but yes, one would hope so.  We shouldn't let humans do dangerous stuff like driving cars, trains, or airplanes.
2014-07-19T03:59:36Z kristof: beach: After 6 months I picked up the problem of implementing goroutines again, and the yak-shaving is aplenty
2014-07-19T03:59:45Z poseidons-minion: csp?
2014-07-19T03:59:51Z kristof: Yes, that
2014-07-19T03:59:54Z poseidons-minion: ow!
2014-07-19T04:00:07Z poseidons-minion: I thought I saw something on cliki involving it.
2014-07-19T04:00:30Z kristof: The two closest CSP implementations are Calispel and ChanL.
2014-07-19T04:00:32Z beach: kristof: My brain is too small to remember that far back.
2014-07-19T04:00:36Z kristof: :)
2014-07-19T04:01:13Z antonv: poseidons-minion: btw, cliki is another lisp powered web site
2014-07-19T04:01:22Z poseidons-minion: is there any online forum free that I can use programmed in lisp?
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2014-07-19T04:01:34Z poseidons-minion: cliki seems kinda static
2014-07-19T04:01:42Z poseidons-minion: I guess if it is a wiki its not.....
2014-07-19T04:03:25Z kristof: beach: maybe 7 months ago I had been looking at clojure's core.async code and was dismayed by some design choices, so I was wondering how I'd go about it in Common Lisp. Dropped the idea for a while, and picked it up again a few weeks ago.
2014-07-19T04:04:14Z beach: kristof: I see.
2014-07-19T04:04:27Z poseidons-minion: would csp use bordeaux threads? or be concurrency without needing that?
2014-07-19T04:05:09Z kristof: poseidons-minion: Anything that needs to spawn multiple machine threads would use bordeaux threads. There's nothing inherent about csp that requires it to be truly parallel, though. Just concurrent.
2014-07-19T04:06:14Z poseidons-minion: It seems modern apps are moving to using N os threads, and then Z (user?) threads inside each os thread.....for supermax speed, is this true?
2014-07-19T04:06:28Z poseidons-minion: I admit ima bit over my head
2014-07-19T04:06:29Z antonv: poseidons-minion: you guessed right, cliki is a wiki, not static. The sources: https://github.com/vsedach/cliki2
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2014-07-19T04:08:29Z kristof: poseidons-minion: Depends on the language. Really finely tuned parallel code will not use lightweight threads. It's becoming more popular to use them, though.
2014-07-19T04:10:28Z poseidons-minion: hmmm, so a parallel app can beat a lightweight threads app?
2014-07-19T04:10:31Z poseidons-minion: interesting
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2014-07-19T04:24:58Z poseidons-minion: can miltiple lisp processes share a lindaspace for data? a linda space that is then snapshotted? each minute and then fully dumped like every few hours?
2014-07-19T04:26:14Z H4ns: i've never heard of anyone using lisp and linda, but one could certainly make that happen
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2014-07-19T04:27:17Z H4ns: but maybe you want to get your feet wet with something simple first.
2014-07-19T04:27:45Z kristof: ^
2014-07-19T04:27:58Z H4ns: do you actually have problems that require parallel processing?  if so, maybe lisp is not the perfect language for you.
2014-07-19T04:28:08Z kristof: poseidons-minion: Go read through Practical Common Lisp, do the simple project chapters at the end, and then come back.
2014-07-19T04:28:13Z H4ns: if not, maybe ignore parallelism for now and see how far you can get with a single thread.
2014-07-19T04:29:01Z kristof: H4ns: Combining LParallel and cl-async comes really, really close!
2014-07-19T04:29:33Z H4ns: kristof: right.  they're great if you know lisp.
2014-07-19T04:30:53Z kristof: H4ns: Well, I was just countering the claim that "lisp is not the perfect language for you." I think it would do quite well.
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2014-07-19T04:31:59Z H4ns: kristof: i disagree.  for a beginner, there is a lot to learn in lisp.  and parallel program is not early on the menu.
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2014-07-19T04:34:28Z kristof: H4ns: Oh, I see what you were saying now.
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2014-07-19T05:03:33Z beach: H4ns: I attempted to make it clear that Clobber is not alone in using transaction logs: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Clobber
2014-07-19T05:04:44Z H4ns: beach: nice, that looks more clear to me now.
2014-07-19T05:04:53Z beach: Good.
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2014-07-19T05:25:15Z theos: CL should be the first language taught to people. life would be so awesome then
2014-07-19T05:25:48Z Shinmera: I don't know about that
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2014-07-19T05:26:46Z theos: introduce kids to the REPL at an early age and they will do wonderful things
2014-07-19T05:27:04Z Shinmera: People will write garbage regardless of language and the probability of them to write dangerous garbage if their language is more powerful is higher.
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2014-07-19T05:28:35Z Shinmera: I don't see how introducing kids early to a simple concept like the repl is going to assure that they'll properly learn all the other important aspects of programming
2014-07-19T05:28:59Z Shinmera: But hey if you just want to have a cheerily optimistic view, I won't ruin your ideals further.
2014-07-19T05:31:27Z kristof: "Permission to make modified copies is expressly NOT granted." Aww, Lispworks, why you do this to your hyperspec? :(
2014-07-19T05:32:10Z H4ns: kristof: it is not lispworks' fault.  their license to the spec requires them to include that sentence.
2014-07-19T05:32:11Z kristof: "Permission to make partial copies is expressly NOT granted, EXCEPT that limited permission is granted to transmit and display a partial copy the Common Lisp HyperSpec for the ordinary purpose of direct viewing by a human being in the usual manner that hypertext browsers permit the viewing of such a complete document, provided that no recopying, redistribution, redisplay, or retransmission is made of any such
2014-07-19T05:32:13Z kristof: partial copy."
2014-07-19T05:32:29Z Shinmera: Because someone might spread misinformation about what the real standard is?
2014-07-19T05:32:57Z H4ns: i don't think that any idealism is behind that restriction.
2014-07-19T05:33:07Z Shinmera: Well I can only guess
2014-07-19T05:33:21Z kristof: Shinmera: Well, that line I just quoted prevents me from bending the hyperspec into a JSON service.
2014-07-19T05:33:54Z Shinmera: Many a person have lamented about this problem already, yes.
2014-07-19T05:33:59Z kristof: Shinmera: Imagine a world where your hyperspec lookups pop up in another emacs buffer, with clickable hyperlinks that only open up more emacs buffers, NOT an entire web browser.
2014-07-19T05:34:02Z theos: so lispworks owns hyperspec?
2014-07-19T05:34:13Z H4ns: nobody will sue anyone for distributing the hyperspec
2014-07-19T05:34:20Z kristof: You never know.
2014-07-19T05:34:25Z beach: theos: I am working on a book about introduction to programming, and it is using CL.
2014-07-19T05:34:29Z Shinmera: kristof: I always have my web browser anyway and I would imagine most people do too so I don't see the issue
2014-07-19T05:34:52Z kristof: Shinmera: Always be dissatisfied with the things we have! It makes life more fun.
2014-07-19T05:34:58Z theos: beach thats cool! does it use other languages too?
2014-07-19T05:35:05Z beach: No
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2014-07-19T05:35:10Z Shinmera: kristof: I'm unhappy about too many things already, dammit!
2014-07-19T05:35:19Z theos: even better
2014-07-19T05:36:50Z beach: theos: It's a bit of a challenge to write, because it must avoid language details in the general flow of reading, while still somehow providing at least some of those details somewhere.
2014-07-19T05:37:35Z beach: Put differently: it should not be a book about CL, but about programming.
2014-07-19T05:38:01Z byte48: hi o/ good night
2014-07-19T05:38:20Z byte48: theos: o/ hi
2014-07-19T05:38:29Z theos: hello byte48 :)
2014-07-19T05:38:58Z theos: beach you can use pseudo code instead
2014-07-19T05:39:08Z byte48: beach: hi, wow fine! good job, write a book for programming using CL
2014-07-19T05:39:19Z beach: theos: Nah, the point is to spread the word about CL.
2014-07-19T05:39:38Z theos: ah! so if you are using CL, it should teach CL in the process
2014-07-19T05:39:40Z beach: byte48: Yes, it's for you! :)
2014-07-19T05:40:04Z beach: theos: Yes, but I must avoid the trap of trying to communicate the complete language.
2014-07-19T05:40:13Z samebchase: beach: We could surely do with more CL books.
2014-07-19T05:40:28Z beach: samebchase: I have 4 or so planned :)
2014-07-19T05:40:59Z Shinmera: I'll stick to hopefully writing more CL blog articles at least.
2014-07-19T05:41:13Z samebchase: beach: oh my!
2014-07-19T05:41:51Z byte48: beach: wow! fine, thanks!, im beginner in CL but it beatifull and great languaje! Lisp for ever! \o/!
2014-07-19T05:42:29Z byte48: Shinmera: do you have a blog? for read, please
2014-07-19T05:42:32Z beach: byte48: We need to work on your spelling: beautiful, language.
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2014-07-19T05:43:01Z beach: byte48: Just do M-x flyspell-mode.
2014-07-19T05:43:15Z Shinmera: byte48: I do, but there's mostly non-CL stuff on it and the current software is crap, so you can't filter it.
2014-07-19T05:43:50Z byte48: beach: sorry, :(, yes, yes have the reason
2014-07-19T05:44:35Z byte48: Shinmera: ha ok, no problem :)
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2014-07-19T05:47:08Z byte48: Shinmera: if you write or add articles about CL, please write me here
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2014-07-19T05:47:27Z Shinmera: I will if I can remember. No guarantees about that though.
2014-07-19T05:47:38Z byte48: oki :)
2014-07-19T05:48:35Z byte48: mmm good evening, i'm go to sleep, o/
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2014-07-19T05:49:00Z kristof: Shinmera: I'd get a cease and desist order before any actual litigation occurred were I to, I dunno, illegally distribute a partial version of the LispWorks Hyperspec, wouldn't i?
2014-07-19T05:49:52Z Shinmera: kristof: I'm no lawyer, but I think that depends on what the group/person in charge of the copyright decides to do
2014-07-19T05:50:55Z kristof: Maybe I could get express permission if I promised to preserve every single hyperlink and word.
2014-07-19T05:51:26Z kristof: Shinmera: The only roadblocks here are the requirement to A) include logos and B) present the information in a web browser.
2014-07-19T05:51:27Z H4ns: kristof: you'll have a hard time getting anyone to comment on the legal status of the hyperspec in a binding manner.
2014-07-19T05:52:08Z kristof: H4ns: I'll just send mail to their legal department and they'll send a letter back, what could be so hard about that?
2014-07-19T05:52:41Z H4ns: kristof: give it a try.
2014-07-19T05:52:47Z H4ns: kristof: let us know how it works out.
2014-07-19T05:53:25Z H4ns: kristof: i expect them to send back a form letter effectively saying "no".  you'll have to send them actual money if you want them to think about something.
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2014-07-19T05:54:11Z H4ns: kristof: but, as no money is involved in common lisp, there is no incentive to sue anyone violating copyrights that are connected to it.
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2014-07-19T05:55:57Z kristof: H4ns: No money is involved, so they'll take it where they can get it!
2014-07-19T05:56:24Z byte48: beach: mmm sorry, i see the bad word... my first idiom is spanish and the word "lenguaje" is correct, but not in english, sorry for that and thanks :)
2014-07-19T05:56:33Z H4ns: kristof: do you think that they can get money out of you for publicising something that is already public?
2014-07-19T05:57:01Z H4ns: kristof: what judge would sentence you to anything?  how rich are you to make the thought worthwhile?
2014-07-19T05:57:02Z beach: byte48: Like I said, use flyspell-mode.
2014-07-19T05:57:26Z kristof: H4ns: In seriousness, I think you're right. Now here's a fun project: scrape the entire hyperspec, parse the HTML web pages into spec objects, preserving links between objects, and dump the result as a BSON or JSON file that could be distributed as a database file with SLIME or something
2014-07-19T05:58:18Z kristof: ...oh, yeah, that would be fun.
2014-07-19T05:58:30Z byte48: beach: thanks, i connect with irssi, but i search connec with emacs for that, thanks, and sorry egain
2014-07-19T05:58:32Z H4ns: kristof: just do it.  i think there even is a better source than the html pages.
2014-07-19T05:58:49Z byte48: beach: and the book, fine :)
2014-07-19T05:59:03Z H4ns: kristof: if i remember correctly, the html is generated from latex, but i could be wrong about the detail.  it is a derivative, though, and the source should be easy enough to find.
2014-07-19T05:59:26Z kristof: H4ns: "Just do it." Well, the hard part would be integrating that into an emacs minor-mode.
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2014-07-19T06:00:05Z H4ns: kristof: isn't info the right format for documentation meant to be browsed in emacs?
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2014-07-19T06:01:54Z beach: byte48: No need to be sorry.  Just take advice and improve! :)
2014-07-19T06:02:53Z byte48: beach: fine! :), thanks
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2014-07-19T06:11:22Z beach: byte48: I am a great believer in Kaizen (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen).  I highly recommend it.
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2014-07-19T06:13:40Z beach: Sometimes I think it would be interesting to attempt to write a CL book as a "community project", but then I remember that lispers can't agree on many things.
2014-07-19T06:14:35Z Shinmera: beach: A main writer with lots of community feedback would work much better
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2014-07-19T06:16:42Z byte48: beach: yeah, is a fine philosophy for apply every day, thanks
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2014-07-19T06:17:31Z samebchase: beach: e.g. https://realworldocaml.org/ | They got a lot of comments from the community, and they incorporated them into the book.
2014-07-19T06:17:44Z beach: Shinmera: I agree, but I think that would be a lot of work for the main writer, trying to achieve consensus, or run the risk of infuriating the others.
2014-07-19T06:18:02Z Shinmera: Right, yes.
2014-07-19T06:18:14Z kristof: Achieve consensus for what?
2014-07-19T06:18:19Z Shinmera: But that's the problem inherent to feedback
2014-07-19T06:18:23Z H4ns: kristof: anything
2014-07-19T06:18:38Z kristof: Well, I was wondering what the context of this was.
2014-07-19T06:18:41Z beach: kristof: We are discussing writing a book as a "community project".
2014-07-19T06:19:12Z beach: samebchase: The problem would be if the main author doesn't want to incorporate the comments. :)
2014-07-19T06:19:24Z kristof: Books worth reading can't be community project!
2014-07-19T06:19:29Z beach: kristof: So you mean using a graph of CL objects to represent the CLHS?  If so, I think that's an excellent idea.  Lately, I have been thinking that a documentation system should be defined in terms of an object-oriented protocol and not in terms of source syntax, because source syntax is what everyone seems to disagree about.
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2014-07-19T06:19:56Z kristof: beach: Erik Naggum almost did that.
2014-07-19T06:20:06Z samebchase: beach: It more like you decide completely on what you want to write, and you incorporate relatively minor, bugfix, prose-style kinda comments.
2014-07-19T06:20:26Z beach: samebchase: Yeah, that might work.
2014-07-19T06:20:55Z Shinmera: beach: What samebchase said is what I meant with my initial comment anyway.
2014-07-19T06:21:04Z samebchase: however if someone is willing to contribute, say a chapter that matches with your original vision, that should be fine as well.
2014-07-19T06:21:05Z beach: samebchase: In fact, I might do that when my book projects are close to final version.
2014-07-19T06:21:45Z beach: kristof: What did Erik Naggum do?
2014-07-19T06:22:09Z kristof: beach: what's the difference between an OO protocol and a source syntax, anyway? A language specification is a heirarchy of disjoint types, isn't it?
2014-07-19T06:23:04Z beach: kristof: The problem with source syntax is that it is a source [sic] of disagreement.
2014-07-19T06:23:27Z kristof: beach: the hypermode.el that SLIME uses maps a graph of symbols to URLs. All you need to do is go one step further and have them be mapped to documentation objects instead.
2014-07-19T06:23:48Z kristof: beach: according the the emacs wiki, naggum wrote that elisp code
2014-07-19T06:24:04Z beach: I see.
2014-07-19T06:25:11Z kristof: Anyway, this discussion is for naught because someone actually made a texinfo version of the hyperspec, apparently.
2014-07-19T06:25:39Z Shinmera: iirc the hyperspec was written in TeX and compiled to html
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2014-07-19T06:26:54Z kristof: Shinmera: Did you know about this texinfo version?
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2014-07-19T06:27:24Z Shinmera: kristof: I didn't know about anything that was uh, usable
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2014-07-19T06:27:57Z Shinmera: I only recall reading an article by one of the people who was on the committee and I think he also compiled the hyperspec we know?
2014-07-19T06:28:03Z Shinmera: *who were
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2014-07-19T06:31:02Z kristof: Shinmera: ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/gcl/gcl.info.tgz
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2014-07-19T06:32:39Z Shinmera: Ah yes, here it is http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/cl-untold-story.html
2014-07-19T06:34:30Z beach: Oh, I know what could be a "community project": A CL reference manual.
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2014-07-19T06:35:38Z pjb: Perhaps a formal specification of CL (and a "corrected" formal specification) would be more useful.
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2014-07-19T06:36:05Z beach: See, we already disagree! :)
2014-07-19T06:36:14Z pjb: :-)
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2014-07-19T06:36:53Z Shinmera: We can't even agree on a CL logo
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2014-07-19T06:37:18Z beach: Shinmera: What's wrong with the lizard?
2014-07-19T06:37:27Z Shinmera: beach: Some people don't agree with it
2014-07-19T06:37:28Z kristof: The lizard is great
2014-07-19T06:37:36Z Shinmera: beach: Also there's no vector version of the lizard.
2014-07-19T06:37:47Z beach: Shinmera: Yes, there is!  I made it!
2014-07-19T06:37:49Z kristof: Better than that god awful three legged elephant or alien
2014-07-19T06:38:00Z Shinmera: beach: oh? I would love to have a copy of that then
2014-07-19T06:38:15Z wizzo: is there anything in lisp that lets you this like python can: http://stackoverflow.com/a/36926
2014-07-19T06:38:17Z beach: Shinmera: OK, let me see where it is.  Hold on...
2014-07-19T06:38:26Z Shinmera: Whoops, gotta run, bbl
2014-07-19T06:38:27Z wizzo: give a list to a function as arguments but turn it into separate args
2014-07-19T06:38:50Z beach: clhs apply
2014-07-19T06:38:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm
2014-07-19T06:39:41Z wizzo: perfect. thanks!
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2014-07-19T06:40:09Z kristof: beach: Is the hyperspec not already a manual?
2014-07-19T06:40:24Z kristof: Oh, no, it's not.
2014-07-19T06:40:46Z kristof: A manual is more specific than a bunch of terse examples.
2014-07-19T06:41:02Z pjb: wizzo: apply, &key and p-list.  But you can't send both a flat list of values and a p-list of key-values to the same argument list.
2014-07-19T06:41:21Z pjb: same &key argument list.  You could use &rest and parse them yourself.
2014-07-19T06:43:09Z wizzo: pjb: i don't really understand how &key and plist come into it. doesn't that require me to change the original function?
2014-07-19T06:44:01Z pjb: (defun f (&key x y z) (list x y z))  (apply (function f) '(:y 2 :x 3 :z 4)) --> (3 2 4)
2014-07-19T06:44:17Z wizzo: ooooh i see
2014-07-19T06:44:19Z wizzo: cool
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2014-07-19T06:44:38Z beach: Shinmera: http://metamodular.com/Lizard-logo/Fig/original.fig
2014-07-19T06:44:44Z pjb: But indeed, then you cannot pass a plain list like (list x y z).  You need to pass: (list :x x :y y :z z)
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2014-07-19T06:45:22Z pjb: (apply (function f) (mapcan (function list) '(:x :y :z) '(1 2 3)))
2014-07-19T06:46:31Z pjb: If you want to be able to pass hash-table too, or some other kind of collection, you could use a generic function and write different methods for each class.
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2014-07-19T06:47:16Z pjb: (defgeneric f (collection)) (defmethod f ((h hash-table)) …) (defmethod f ((l list)) #|here, you would have to dispatch whether it's a flat list or a p-list|#) …
2014-07-19T06:48:34Z wizzo: what is #| |#?
2014-07-19T06:48:40Z Bike: just a block comment
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2014-07-19T06:49:03Z pjb: (* and *) in Pascal (not same as /* */ in C!)
2014-07-19T06:49:13Z Bike: do C /**/ nest?
2014-07-19T06:49:17Z pjb: No.
2014-07-19T06:49:24Z Bike: ah, i was wondering about that
2014-07-19T06:49:32Z wizzo: what's the difference from /* */?
2014-07-19T06:49:34Z beach: kristof: Right.  There is a lot of information in the CLHS that is hard to find.  Plus, it is very skimpy on examples.
2014-07-19T06:49:37Z Bike: #||# does nest
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2014-07-19T06:50:38Z kristof: Bike: ... what would a nested comment do, anyway?
2014-07-19T06:51:13Z beach: kristof: The idea would be to make that information more explicit, to correct obvious mistakes, add more examples, and make it a bit more pedagogical.
2014-07-19T06:51:14Z Bike: lisp #| foo #| older comment i didn't want to edit |# |# works, but C /* foo /* bar */ */ is a syntax error, since it's read as /* "foo /* bar" */ followed by a stray */
2014-07-19T06:51:21Z pjb: (defun f () #| not good: (g) (h #|send the missile|# t) |#)
2014-07-19T06:51:43Z Bike: i got that in the C i do at work the other day and it was mildly annoying.
2014-07-19T06:52:18Z pjb: Hence the #if 0 comment in C…
2014-07-19T06:52:19Z kristof: beach: open to annotations, as well? :)
2014-07-19T06:53:38Z kristof: beach: Also, books like CLtL2 aren't actually entirely conformant to ANSI CL nor comprehensive. So yeah, I can see this being quite useful.
2014-07-19T06:54:13Z beach: Exactly!
2014-07-19T06:54:27Z beach: Annotations would be quite useful.
2014-07-19T06:54:46Z beach: Historical annotations for one thing.
2014-07-19T06:54:58Z beach: kristof: Excellent idea!
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2014-07-19T07:09:05Z nydel: can one query the version of slime being used from sbcl repl in emacs slime
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2014-07-19T07:15:18Z Shinmera: beach: Thanks!
2014-07-19T07:19:16Z Shinmera: beach: When you said 'I made it', did you mean you made the vector version of it or you made the original graphic?
2014-07-19T07:19:47Z beach: Shinmera: The vector version.
2014-07-19T07:20:03Z Shinmera: Alright
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2014-07-19T07:20:39Z beach: Shinmera: You should be able to use fig2dev to generate whatever size and format you want from that .fig file.
2014-07-19T07:20:49Z Shinmera: If I recall correctly though the original author said it could be used for anything, so I might try to ask unixstickers again to make a buyable sticker out of it.
2014-07-19T07:21:01Z Shinmera: beach: Already ahead of you
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2014-07-19T07:21:10Z beach: Heh! OK.
2014-07-19T07:21:29Z beach: I used it for a T-shirt that I ordered from Vistaprint.
2014-07-19T07:23:30Z beach: Shinmera: For what it's worth, that is also my recollection (that the original author said it could be used for anything).
2014-07-19T07:23:46Z Shinmera: Yeah the original page isn't up but it's archived
2014-07-19T07:23:47Z beach: Otherwise, I would not have made the vector version.
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2014-07-19T07:48:45Z Shinmera: Well, here's to hoping there'll be a way to buy a CL logo sticker some time soon.
2014-07-19T07:49:06Z beach: Nice!
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2014-07-19T08:58:00Z byte48: hi, the elements of list contain eight bytes of information, the element (number or symbol) and pointers for the next cell, thus, the elements of list is not designated the form contiguous in the memory?... one list have its elements in the random site of memory?
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2014-07-19T08:58:54Z H4ns: byte48: yes.
2014-07-19T08:59:33Z H4ns: byte48: a list is a linked data structure.  every element (cons cell) in the list is allocated separately.
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2014-07-19T09:02:58Z byte48: mmmm but the behave brigs slow access to data?
2014-07-19T09:03:14Z H4ns: byte48: also not that you should not make any assumptions about the "number of bytes" that constitutes a cons cell.
2014-07-19T09:03:34Z H4ns: byte48: random access to lists is "relatively slow".  access time grows lineraly with the number of elements.
2014-07-19T09:04:01Z H4ns: byte48: if you need random access and do not require the flexibility of a list, you can use an array or hash table.
2014-07-19T09:04:52Z byte48: H4ns: mmmm ok, good!, thanks H4ns
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2014-07-19T09:17:14Z Guthur: byte48: it's worth reading about basic data structures and their advantages/disadvantages
2014-07-19T09:17:47Z Guthur: non of the attributes will be unique to Lisp
2014-07-19T09:17:54Z Guthur: and the knowledge will be invaluable
2014-07-19T09:19:27Z byte48: Guthur: ok :), searching about that, thanks
2014-07-19T09:21:55Z byte48: yes, the doubt born with de allocated form in others languages
2014-07-19T09:22:33Z byte48: thanks for the answers Guthur and H4ns
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2014-07-19T09:31:09Z pjb: byte48: you must separate your concerns about the abstract view of a linked list, and the actual configuration of bits in computer memory.
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2014-07-19T09:34:38Z pjb: byte48: for example, while conceptually a lisp list is made of a linked list of cons cells (each cell having two slots, conventionally and historically named car and cdr), some implementations have used so called cdr-coding, which consists in storing the lists as a vector of cars, without a need for the cdr cell, for lisp lists.  As soon as you used a function such as COPY-LIST, you would obtain such a cdr-coded list.  You could still
2014-07-19T09:34:39Z pjb: use car, cdr and rplaca on those lists, but using rplacd on them would imply a lot of work (hidden by the implementation) than the usual rplacd.
2014-07-19T09:34:52Z byte48: ha yes! pjb, my doubt is because a newbie in programmation and Lisp... Lisp is very fine and great!
2014-07-19T09:34:57Z byte48: mm reading
2014-07-19T09:35:15Z pjb: Also, cons cells don't take 8 bytes of information.  They take whatever the implementation uses to implement the cons cell concept.
2014-07-19T09:35:21Z pjb: ie. Don't mind it!
2014-07-19T09:35:46Z pjb: (unless you are implementing or maintaining an implementation of lisp).
2014-07-19T09:36:10Z dkcl: (Please don't, in order to remain sane)
2014-07-19T09:37:18Z pjb: byte48: for example, here is a very good implementation of (immutable) cons cells: (defun .cons (a d) (lambda (k) (funcall k a d))) (defun .car (c) (funcall c (lambda (a d) a))) (defun .cdr (c) (funcall c (lambda (a d) d)))
2014-07-19T09:38:14Z pjb: (list (.car (.cons 1 2)) (.cdr (.cons 1 2)) (.car (.cdr (.cons 1 (.cons 2 nil))))) --> (1 2 2)
2014-07-19T09:38:14Z pjb:  
2014-07-19T09:38:37Z pjb: Just add a .print function to print those chains of .cons with the list syntax and you're all set. ;-)
2014-07-19T09:39:23Z byte48: mmmm pjb interesting, i see, wow thanks for the answer
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2014-07-19T09:42:23Z byte48: i'll read more about that, your explanation is very fine and very explanatory, thanks egain
2014-07-19T09:42:29Z byte48: pjb: ^
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2014-07-19T16:15:08Z yern: Hi
2014-07-19T16:15:38Z yern: Does anyone know how to get JSON.parse(...) using Parenscript?
2014-07-19T16:16:12Z yern: ((@ |JSON| parse) ...) doesn't work obviously.
2014-07-19T16:17:54Z yern: OH my bad.. its *JSON*
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2014-07-19T16:19:10Z yern: Parenscript is like a revelation, even though its just a dirty hack, it exposes all of JavaScripts nastiness.
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2014-07-19T16:58:53Z moore33: beach:Hi!
2014-07-19T17:01:08Z beach: moore33: Hello.
2014-07-19T17:03:32Z moore33: Hmmm, does (ql:update-client) normally take a very long time?
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2014-07-19T17:04:51Z moore33: beach: Trying to do some Lisp-OpenGL hacking from a chambre d'hotes in the Pyrenees.
2014-07-19T17:05:06Z beach: moore33: Oh! :)
2014-07-19T17:05:36Z moore33: Isaac went to a camp down here, so we're picking him up tomorrow.
2014-07-19T17:05:46Z beach: I see.
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2014-07-19T17:08:06Z beach: moore33: It's late for me.  I should go spend time with my (admittedly small) family.
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2014-07-19T17:09:12Z splittist: That phrase of beach's has to be a macro.
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2014-07-19T17:12:54Z moore33: Slight inside joke
2014-07-19T17:13:18Z moore33: But I don't doubt that he typed it out :)
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2014-07-19T17:34:31Z kristof: Minion: memo for beach: should a Lisp User Manual also include detailed information on well established libraries and utilities like ASDF3 and Bordeaux Threads?
2014-07-19T17:34:32Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-07-19T17:34:58Z kristof: Oh, cool, minion's still around :)
2014-07-19T17:36:59Z splittist: moore33: what sort of opengl hacking, if I may be so bold?
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2014-07-19T17:41:25Z moore33: splittist: It's a scenegraph in lisp, but based on recent "low or no overhead" ideas.
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2014-07-19T17:43:11Z moore33: So, lots of things in VBOs, scenegraph is traversed as little as possible, eventually multidraw will be expoited...
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2014-07-19T17:54:29Z splittist: moore33: using a dependency graph?
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2014-07-19T17:54:44Z splittist is now well beyond his threshold of understanding
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2014-07-19T17:58:41Z phadthai: kristof: only my own opinion, but probably; as well as list major implementations and their prefered context, perhaps?
2014-07-19T17:59:05Z phadthai: (and of course, I can't answer for Beach)
2014-07-19T17:59:15Z kristof: That's a slippery slope as far as opinions go, but I think I agree.
2014-07-19T17:59:57Z phadthai: a problem is probably determining where to stop
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2014-07-19T18:01:17Z kristof: Anyway, this way, we can just tell new users to go read PCL, and if they still have questions, they can rtfm
2014-07-19T18:02:18Z kristof: phadthai: Stop what?
2014-07-19T18:02:32Z phadthai: the list of libraries or implementations
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2014-07-19T18:03:21Z phadthai: i.e. quicklisp will probably support more libraries than are worth listing
2014-07-19T18:03:45Z phadthai: and a book is not the best place for a list which will constantly change and grow
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2014-07-19T18:07:17Z phadthai: but indeed, people who are new to lisp are naturally totally lost as to what to try, given only an exhaustive list of software
2014-07-19T18:07:27Z kristof: phadthai: I'm just talking about essentials.
2014-07-19T18:07:51Z phadthai: yes I agree, exactly
2014-07-19T18:08:23Z kristof: phadthai: Directing people to the Cliki isn't very helpful sometimes because it's not a discoverable resource, if that makes sense
2014-07-19T18:08:32Z phadthai: yes
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2014-07-19T18:08:46Z joe-w-bimedina: I was wondering if someone can help me with the logic on this, I have a function at this gist :https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/77de049fd2292e10aa68 that prints a multi channel matrix, the way the unknown functions operate isnt to important except that when it hits this line: (format t "(~a ~a ~a)" b g r) it prints 3 values, derived by those functions, encased in parentheses, then the rest should fall into place.  I was trying to figure out
2014-07-19T18:08:46Z joe-w-bimedina:  how to update the code so there would be an extra set of parentheses around each row, so the output looks more like a #3A array, and could use a little help on that
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2014-07-19T18:12:26Z kristof: joe-w-bimedina: shouldn't you just wrap the inner dotimes with a "(format t "(")" and then end it with an accompanying end paren?
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2014-07-19T18:12:58Z joe-w-bimedina: okay, thanks..let me try that:)
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2014-07-19T18:13:53Z kristof: (Dotimes <istuff> (format t "(") (dotimes <jstuff>) (format t ")"))
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2014-07-19T18:14:58Z kristof: Er, you don't even need format for that, just a non formatting print function
2014-07-19T18:15:32Z joe-w-bimedina: ok cool , one sec
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2014-07-19T18:23:52Z joe-w-bimedina: kristof: did you mean do that in lieu of my existing code, or add the new format directives after the content of each dotimes loop?
2014-07-19T18:25:40Z kristof: Modify the first dotimes loop so that its body first prints an open paren, then executes the next dotimes loop, then prints the end paren.
2014-07-19T18:26:06Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks
2014-07-19T18:28:46Z kristof: Your conditionals at the end look odd to me.
2014-07-19T18:28:58Z joe-w-bimedina: how so?
2014-07-19T18:32:18Z kristof: I'm just not sure why they're there.
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2014-07-19T18:36:06Z joe-w-bimedina: I had to add them to make the formatting come out right,  the (cols mat) line for instance is the columns of the input matrix, so mat-area on a 4x4 matrix would be 16. I hope I'm not any trouble, but I am still getting a couple extra spaces with the latest version, I updated my gist with the latest output, if you wouldnt mind checking it out
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2014-07-19T18:37:44Z kristof: Lol at your identation
2014-07-19T18:37:59Z kristof: You're not troubling me :P
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2014-07-19T18:38:53Z joe-w-bimedina: i used indent-region...is it because it is not set at tabs,  thanks, yea I do appreciate you doing this, it will help me master the complexities of programming
2014-07-19T18:40:31Z kristof: joe-w-bimedina: mat area should be 16 for a four by four, right? Is n = to mat area at the end of any row other than the last? :)
2014-07-19T18:41:09Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec
2014-07-19T18:42:24Z kristof: You should be comparing n to mat-area mod j, or something
2014-07-19T18:43:57Z joe-w-bimedina: don't really use mod, have to contemplate it for a second
2014-07-19T18:45:25Z kristof: 6 mod 3 == 0, 4 mod 3 == 1, 5 mod 2 == 1, etc.
2014-07-19T18:45:41Z kristof: joe-w-bimedina: What language do your normally program in?
2014-07-19T18:46:28Z joe-w-bimedina: lisp, but the whole dotimes thing eg doing these kind of operations, I am just attempting to master
2014-07-19T18:46:43Z joe-w-bimedina: just now attempting
2014-07-19T18:46:51Z kristof: Ok
2014-07-19T18:47:15Z kristof: Well if you change that conditional to using the mod operator instead, it'll do what you want
2014-07-19T18:48:06Z kristof: Are you really iterating over a 3 dimensional matrix?
2014-07-19T18:48:45Z joe-w-bimedina: can you show me an example, I promise I will study it very closely, but it would help me begin to learn to use mod better,  yeah I just figured that out on my own so that was exciting:)
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2014-07-19T18:51:32Z joe-w-bimedina: I changed mat-area to (mod mat-area j) where j was in scope and I got a division by zero error for instance
2014-07-19T18:52:29Z joe-w-bimedina: tried (mod j mat-area) instead and it worked but still get extra spaces
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2014-07-19T18:55:41Z kristof: Lol
2014-07-19T18:56:48Z kristof: I actually meant (mod mat-area columns)
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2014-07-19T18:57:25Z kristof: Wait
2014-07-19T18:57:29Z kristof: What do I mean?
2014-07-19T18:57:43Z kristof: I forgot what I mean. I dunno, you'll figure it our.
2014-07-19T18:58:09Z Shinmera: kristof: Idunno about that
2014-07-19T18:58:23Z kristof: I dunno either, I haven't had breakfast yet
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2014-07-19T18:58:36Z Shinmera: I meant I don't know if he'll figure it out
2014-07-19T18:58:47Z kristof: Oh :(
2014-07-19T18:59:03Z ck_: neither do I. This really is a fascinatingly weird odyssey
2014-07-19T18:59:18Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks for the extra advice, I'll keep playing with it and see if I can get those spaces out, thanks for taking the time to teach me that stuff:)
2014-07-19T18:59:40Z kristof: Shinmera: ^See? Baby steps. At least he learned a little.
2014-07-19T18:59:47Z Shinmera: Baby steps for years
2014-07-19T18:59:52Z Shinmera: ain't nobody got time fo dat
2014-07-19T19:00:04Z joe-w-bimedina: exactly, every step helps
2014-07-19T19:00:36Z kristof: joe-w-bimedina: Don't take this the wrong way but, uh, you should pick up a beginning programming book and learn C
2014-07-19T19:00:54Z Shinmera: kristof: he can't read
2014-07-19T19:01:04Z kristof: Hey, don't be a jackass
2014-07-19T19:01:26Z Shinmera: He's been told to read books probably hundreds of times by now
2014-07-19T19:01:38Z Shinmera: It's super tiring
2014-07-19T19:01:47Z Zhivago: He's probably excessively hetrosexual.
2014-07-19T19:02:09Z kristof: Shinmera: did you ever try that texinfo version of the hyperspec that I sent you?
2014-07-19T19:02:27Z Shinmera: kristof: I haven't gotten around to it, no
2014-07-19T19:02:52Z kristof: Don't worry about it, I'll do it today and let you know if it's worth a look
2014-07-19T19:02:58Z Shinmera: Alright, thanks!
2014-07-19T19:03:14Z kristof: Not the biggest fan of info, though
2014-07-19T19:03:23Z Shinmera: Just so you know: I'd be really interested in a CLHS json service
2014-07-19T19:03:40Z joe-w-bimedina: would c be better than trying to start reading up on dotimes loops, it is about the time where I need to really master them?
2014-07-19T19:04:01Z Shinmera: or even just some kind of application to collect the data into some kind of object representation so I could offload it to a DB
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2014-07-19T19:07:17Z kristof: Shinmera: see, I was thinking that a distributable db would be better.
2014-07-19T19:07:38Z Shinmera: kristof: But then what DB format?
2014-07-19T19:07:46Z kristof: But yes, it'd use either json, bson, or protobuf
2014-07-19T19:08:02Z kristof: Oh, I just meant one of the above, not a real database
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2014-07-19T19:14:46Z kristof: joe-w-bimedina: I say C because it maps very effectively onto what actually happens on a hardware level. Lisp does too, but sometimes it's not as obvious and there aren't any introductory programming texts for lisp (beach will fix that someday).
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2014-07-19T19:15:19Z Shinmera: kristof: ah, alright then
2014-07-19T19:15:30Z Shinmera: kristof: My vote would go for JSON
2014-07-19T19:15:47Z joe-w-bimedina: ok, thanks for the advice, I'll check out a book:)
2014-07-19T19:15:49Z Shinmera: kristof: or SEXPs, actually
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2014-07-19T19:17:46Z antoszka: kristof: cool, I didn't realise there's a texinfo version of the hyperspec.
2014-07-19T19:18:54Z antoszka: kristof: is the conversion good?
2014-07-19T19:18:55Z kristof: No to sexprs. I'm not going to handroll my own serialization format when a very good one already exists that has excellent library imementations. All I need to do is make an object model for documentation and I get free JSON.
2014-07-19T19:19:06Z kristof: Shinmera:^
2014-07-19T19:19:34Z joe-w-bimedina: ok got rid of spaces, but lost one parentheses at the end, almost home
2014-07-19T19:19:36Z kristof: antoszka: who knows! I haven't tried it yet. It's written by the fellow who made GNU common lisp.
2014-07-19T19:19:51Z antoszka: kristof: right, will check out
2014-07-19T19:20:08Z mr-foobar: i recently read a blog. can't find the bookmark. it was about using lisp for low level assembly lang simulating. anyone remember ?
2014-07-19T19:20:41Z antoszka: mr-foobar: tried finding it on planet.lisp.org?
2014-07-19T19:21:17Z Shinmera: kristof: I don't see what's unspecified about print and read, but alright.
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2014-07-19T19:22:36Z joe-w-bimedina: kristof: and home, thanks again kristof:)
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2014-07-19T19:23:44Z kristof: No prob, now go learn how to program
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2014-07-19T19:24:12Z joe-w-bimedina: will do:) every day
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2014-07-19T19:26:19Z kristof: mr-foobar: the first thing that comes to mind is Part V of SICP but I doubt that's what you mean
2014-07-19T19:27:08Z samebchase: mr-foobar: http://pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/15/sbcl-the-ultimate-assembly-code-breadboard/ ?
2014-07-19T19:27:27Z mr-foobar: samebchase: yess !! thank you
2014-07-19T19:28:20Z samebchase: :-)
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2014-07-19T19:31:11Z kristof: Oh wow, I remember that one
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2014-07-19T19:38:20Z kristof: Where the HELL are these TeX sources
2014-07-19T19:43:54Z mr-foobar wonders if lisp has a postfix macro
2014-07-19T19:46:22Z kristof: mr-foobar: (postfix sexpr) would cons (last sexpr) to (butlast sexpr) and return that
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2014-07-19T19:48:03Z kristof: actually, (cons (last sexpr) (reverse (butlast sexpr))) is better if argument order is for some reason reversed in postfix traditions. I don't use concatenative languages, I wouldn't know.
2014-07-19T19:49:58Z mr-foobar: (postfix (1 2 (3 4 *) +) 5 /) <-> (/ 5 (+ (* 3 4) 2 1)
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2014-07-19T19:50:28Z mr-foobar: *missed a paren
2014-07-19T19:50:31Z kristof: mr-foobar: Please notice the flexibilty provided in using a list datastructure to represent programs instead of distinguished syntax objects. If you wanted to do the same thing with the latter, you'd have to have every object inherit from a generic syntax-object class which implemented a keyword slot and an arguments slot. And then you'd write a bunch of methods on that object.
2014-07-19T19:51:02Z kristof: mr-foobar: And at the end of the day, you would have just invented a lesser version of the linked list.
2014-07-19T19:51:37Z kristof: mr-foobar: Then the postfix macro would deepwalk the sexpr, macro-expanding as it went along, recursively applying postfix to nested lists.
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2014-07-19T19:53:46Z mr-foobar: oh i agree, I have re-invented lisp upto three times so far. just something fun.
2014-07-19T19:54:53Z kristof: mr-foobar: It does look fun! Make an RPN calculator :^)
2014-07-19T19:55:38Z kristof: mr-foobar: Just remembered something from On Lisp. If you want to define a recursive macro, you should instead define a function that can operate recursively, and then let your macro call that
2014-07-19T19:58:04Z kristof: (defun postfixify (sexpr) "Deepwalks a sexpr notation program and returns its equivalent postfix representation" (cons (last sexpr) (map (lambda (element) (if (atom element) element (postfixify element))) (butlast sexpr)))
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2014-07-19T20:12:55Z kristof: Ha! While debugging the above I was taking the last of a car instead of the car of a last. I'm lame.
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2014-07-19T20:27:11Z kristof: Shinmera: Building the texinfo files seems to fail.
2014-07-19T20:27:34Z Shinmera: Welp, so much for that then
2014-07-19T20:28:01Z kristof: There are two versions, actually. One claims to be more polished and is a tex-to-texinfo converter. The other one is already in texinfo format, and was written by the GNU Common Lisp guy.
2014-07-19T20:28:07Z kristof: Shinmera: I'm going to try the latter, now
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2014-07-19T20:43:55Z kristof: Shinmera: It's just an info manual. Nothing special. The pages are linked appropriately, but built-in functions are not linked to their dictionary place
2014-07-19T20:44:21Z kristof: Shinmera: Also, formatting is... meh. It's an info file. So you don't get things like subscripts, and italics
2014-07-19T20:44:31Z Shinmera: Ah well, would've been too god to be true
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2014-07-19T21:06:55Z zacts: is newlisp dead or alive?
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2014-07-19T21:08:21Z Shinmera: maybe both
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2014-07-19T21:12:05Z |3b|: zacts: this channel mostly talks about common lisp, and seems to not like newlisp much, so probably wouldn't get a very good answer if any
2014-07-19T21:12:23Z kristof: I wouldn't say "doesn't like". I just think fexprs are scary.
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2014-07-19T21:13:06Z |3b| hasn't heard much of anything good about it here at least
2014-07-19T21:14:26Z moore33: |3b|:Have you done much with glut in cl-opengl? I can never seem to make destroying the window from within code (as opposed to closing the window via the manager) to work right.
2014-07-19T21:15:00Z |3b|: moore33: not recently, though i thought that did work, i usually exit with esc or something
2014-07-19T21:16:40Z moore33: |3b|:I'm struggling with the case where there's an error in initialization (e.g., a required version of OpenGL isn't supported), but after erroring out the vestigial window sticks around.
2014-07-19T21:16:55Z |3b|: moore33: earlier you mentioned looking at "low/no overhead" GL stuff, do you mean stuff like in the gdc AZDO talk? ( http://gdcvault.com/play/1020791/ )
2014-07-19T21:17:21Z dlowe: I wonder if fexprs aren't worth revisiting from a JIT compilation perspective
2014-07-19T21:17:32Z |3b|: hmm, possibly you try to close it too soon in initialization, which function are you trying to close from?
2014-07-19T21:18:15Z moore33: |3d|:Eventually. There's another NVidia talk that goes over avoiding scene graph traversal and doing GPU-side multidraw that's guiding me.
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2014-07-19T21:18:37Z |3b|: cool
2014-07-19T21:18:56Z |3b| wants to try that at some point, if i can ever get over my mental block on this shader stuff :/
2014-07-19T21:19:27Z moore33: |3d|:display-window, as in the shader-vao example (which is a bit broken; I think the author assumed that (return-from display-window nil) throws out of the generic function).
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2014-07-19T21:20:50Z moore33: |3b|:http://on-demand.gputechconf.com/gtc/2013/presentations/S3032-Advanced-Scenegraph-Rendering-Pipeline.pdf
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2014-07-19T21:21:41Z |3b|: cool, will have to look into that also
2014-07-19T21:21:58Z |3b| needs a rendering loop with as little lisp in it as possible so i can translate it to C
2014-07-19T21:22:16Z |3b|: mostly-gpu rendering loops would probably work well for that :)
2014-07-19T21:22:53Z moore33: I get enough of rendering loops in C++ in my day job that I want to do it in lisp now :)
2014-07-19T21:23:10Z |3b|: yeah, minimizing the C would be nice
2014-07-19T21:23:49Z |3b| would rather write a bit of C than a realtime GC for sbcl though (the latter would be a fun project, but not really productive from the point of view of getting GFX on screen)
2014-07-19T21:24:38Z moore33: |3b|:My intended target is tools, such as a modeling or CAD program, where GC won't matter much.
2014-07-19T21:24:57Z |3b|: yeah
2014-07-19T21:25:07Z |3b| wants to do VR stuff, latency matters a bit there :p
2014-07-19T21:25:10Z moore33: |3b|:Otherwise, I'm waiting for beach's real-time GC :)
2014-07-19T21:25:35Z |3b| wants to do VR in a few weeks, so latency of implementing realtime GC matters too :)
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2014-07-19T21:26:19Z |3b| wonders if this emacs is planning to start responding again at some point or if i should try to interrupt it
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2014-07-19T21:27:10Z moore33: It will be interesting to see how much garbage gets produced in a rendering loop and if it stays in the nursery.
2014-07-19T21:27:48Z |3b|: i'm currently thinking a stupid C rendering loop that walks some data structure produced by CL (or tells GPU to do so)
2014-07-19T21:28:04Z |3b|: so i can reliably have it draw something every 1/75 sec whether scene was updated or not
2014-07-19T21:28:23Z |3b|: hmm, that emacs just disappeared... guess that's a no on "will it start responding" :/
2014-07-19T21:28:38Z |3b|: "13824 Segmentation fault      (core dumped) emacs"
2014-07-19T21:29:54Z kristof: everybody seems to be waiting for beach's everything
2014-07-19T21:30:01Z kristof: Maybe someone should _help_ him
2014-07-19T21:30:11Z moore33: kristof: Yeah.
2014-07-19T21:30:29Z moore33: But he has infinite patience, so we can wait too :)
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2014-07-19T21:30:50Z |3b| would if i were working on one of the things that would use his stuff, but i'm not at the moment
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2014-07-19T21:32:00Z |3b|: hmm, looks like killing emacs from slime might be repeatable, wonder if there is any easy way to debug it
2014-07-19T21:32:02Z kristof: dlowe: Oh! Maybe someone should rewrite picolisp in Rpython, use their compiler-toolchain, and voila, auto-generated JIT bytecode compiling meta-tracing hotspot interpreter for a lisp with fexprs, a la carte.
2014-07-19T21:32:26Z kristof: dlowe: Did I say picolisp? I meant newlisp.
2014-07-19T21:32:58Z moore33: |3b|:Anyway, I'm thinking of giving up on glut for glop, which has an event-loop model a bit better suited for one of my projects.
2014-07-19T21:33:09Z |3b|: yeah, that's what i've been using
2014-07-19T21:33:22Z |3b|: it is a bit rough, but easier to tweak
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2014-07-19T21:33:46Z |3b|: though actually i have a wrapper on top of that that more or less works with glut too
2014-07-19T21:34:42Z moore33: I think I need to add modifier keys to events in glop, but that doesn't seem hard.
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2014-07-19T21:41:08Z |3b| thinks slime-all-xrefs might be a bit broken
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2014-07-19T21:42:36Z |3b|: can someone with recent slime try M-. print-object RET then in the xref buffer M-: (slime-all-xrefs)
2014-07-19T21:42:41Z |3b|: and see if it returns?
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2014-07-19T21:45:43Z |3b|: ( C-g should interrupt it if it doesn't )
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2014-07-19T21:50:04Z kristof: |3b|: hangs
2014-07-19T21:50:22Z kristof: Oh, uh, I should wait more than 5 seconds first, probably
2014-07-19T21:50:25Z |3b|: ok, not my changes then, thanks
2014-07-19T21:50:30Z |3b|: nah, it should be fast
2014-07-19T21:50:54Z kristof: SLIME 2014-06-17 is my version
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2014-07-19T21:53:38Z |3b| thinks i found it... someone replaced next-line with forward-line, but they don't behave the same, and slime-all-xrefs depends on the old behavior
2014-07-19T21:54:10Z kristof shrugs
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2014-07-19T21:54:41Z |3b|: yeah, that seems to do it
2014-07-19T21:55:21Z |3b| wonders if i have the energy for a proper pull request or not
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2014-07-19T22:00:17Z decent: yes you can!
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2014-07-19T22:20:00Z |3b| wonders if anyone still uses slime-next-line/not-add-newlines or if it should be removed as well
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2014-07-19T22:41:39Z |3b|: ok, pull request done, now back to what i was trying to do before it broke, not that moore33 is here any more
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2014-07-19T22:58:44Z zacts: |3b|: ah ok, sorry
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2014-07-19T23:19:34Z BnMcGn: Have an issue with s-xml-rpc on sbcl/ubuntu. It won't respond in server mode. It opens the requested port but any client that tries to connect locks up. No output in the console.
2014-07-19T23:20:08Z BnMcGn: Tried these instructions, among others. http://cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/xml-rpc.html
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2014-07-19T23:36:58Z |3b| wonders if recompiling things in xref buffers worked properly at some point or if it always broke source locations
2014-07-19T23:41:01Z |3b|: ah, guess it was changed at some point, yay more pull requests :/
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2014-07-20T00:10:04Z |3b|: minion: memo for moore33: shader-vao cleans up window properly for me if i force the version check to fail in display-window and check for unbound slots in tick, what OS are you using?
2014-07-20T00:10:04Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell moore33 when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-07-20T00:12:16Z |3b|: minion: memo for moore33: also, it shouldn't exit the display-window GF completely, since one of the :around methods calls (main-loop) which is required for the window to go away. (and calling cl-glut:main-loop by hand sometimes helps get rid of old windows if you still get them)
2014-07-20T00:12:16Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell moore33 when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-07-20T00:56:13Z endthefed: lisp video games? graphical?
2014-07-20T00:56:18Z endthefed: is there a site for such?
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2014-07-20T00:56:26Z poseidons-monion: heh
2014-07-20T00:57:44Z ricercar: poseidons-monion: http://lispgames.org/
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2014-07-20T01:11:21Z chase_gray: Hi! I have a question about REPL. I tried making a function (defun repl () (loop (print (eval (read))))), but it didn't work the way i thought it would. I evaluated (repl), and then I typed (+ 1 1) RET, but "2" came out until I typed (+ 2 2) RET. Then, I typed (+ 1 1) and "4" came out. Why is the print and the eval buffered by one argument?
2014-07-20T01:11:46Z chase_gray: *2 only came out after I typed (+ 2 2) RET.
2014-07-20T01:13:05Z Bike: clhs flush-output
2014-07-20T01:13:05Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for flush-output.
2014-07-20T01:13:09Z Bike: ergh, what is it
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2014-07-20T01:13:19Z Bike: clhs finish-output
2014-07-20T01:13:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm
2014-07-20T01:16:28Z chase_gray: oh, thank you!
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2014-07-20T01:52:15Z dlowe: clhs force-output
2014-07-20T01:52:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm
2014-07-20T01:52:28Z dlowe: heh. same page. ah, well.
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2014-07-20T03:27:27Z zorianny: Hola
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2014-07-20T05:15:19Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-07-20T05:15:20Z minion: beach, memo from kristof: should a Lisp User Manual also include detailed information on well established libraries and utilities like ASDF3 and Bordeaux Threads?
2014-07-20T05:17:42Z beach: minion: memo for kristof: Yes, I agree that the reference manual should include de facto standard libraries.
2014-07-20T05:17:42Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell kristof when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-07-20T05:19:19Z beach: splittist: It is an Emacs abbrev.  For some reason, few people seem to use abbrevs.  They save me a lot of time every day.
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2014-07-20T05:22:57Z beach: phadthai: The reference manual is not meant for people who are new to Lisp.  It is meant as a free and pedagogical alternative to the CLHS.  In the "Introduction to programming" book I am writing, a few essential libraries and implementations will be talked about, but it won't be exhaustive.
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2014-07-20T05:47:24Z Guthur: beach: out of curiosity would essential libraries include alexandria?
2014-07-20T05:47:46Z beach: Guthur: I don't know where to draw the line yet.
2014-07-20T05:49:06Z Guthur: personally i think there would a strong case for it. It is probably one of the most commonly used library
2014-07-20T05:49:27Z beach: Sure.  No problem.
2014-07-20T05:49:47Z Guthur: it also has some things that are now taken for granted when doing functional programming, such as compose and curry
2014-07-20T05:51:05Z beach: Yes, I see.  For some reason, I haven't started using it myself.  I don't know why.  That doesn't mean it can't be included though.
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2014-07-20T05:53:30Z beach: So, anyway, I started the reference manual: https://github.com/robert-strandh/CL-reference
2014-07-20T05:53:55Z beach: And I have a bet with my wife concerning what #lisp participants will disagree with first. :)
2014-07-20T05:57:06Z |3b|: is LaTeX one of the options? :p
2014-07-20T05:57:19Z beach: Yes, that's the one I bet on :)
2014-07-20T05:57:25Z beach: Can I tell her I won the bet?
2014-07-20T05:57:26Z |3b| doesn't actually disagree with it though, just doesn't want to read it atm
2014-07-20T05:57:33Z beach: :(
2014-07-20T06:04:34Z |3b|: while it isn't what i would have chosen, i think it is an improvement over raw html, and i'm not going to try to tell you what to use for your doc projects when they are producing much more results than any of mine :)
2014-07-20T06:04:51Z beach: Heh!  Yes, I see.
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2014-07-20T06:05:52Z beach: |3b|: I am thinking I should use a bunch of TeX macros that will facilitate the translation to whatever format is desired.
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2014-07-20T06:11:16Z |3b| wonders how hard it would be to convince TeX to do nice layouts for a single continuous page per chapter
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2014-07-20T06:12:24Z beach: Interesting idea.  I find TeX has all kinds of arbitrary limitations.
2014-07-20T06:13:01Z H4ns: did anyone look at patoline?
2014-07-20T06:13:43Z |3b|: not just TeX limitations, but conventions for things like placing footnotes and diagrams
2014-07-20T06:14:11Z beach: H4ns: Never heard about it before.  Looking at it now.
2014-07-20T06:14:28Z |3b|: was thinking about how only formats i care about at the moment are html, and maybe some ebook format if i happen to have a tablet but not internet
2014-07-20T06:15:16Z Guthur: I can't help but feel orgmode could fit
2014-07-20T06:15:16Z |3b|: as tablet resolutions improve it could be nice to have TeX quality page layout, but i still don't like reading text broken into pages on tablet
2014-07-20T06:15:36Z Guthur: but maybe I'm just becoming to much of an Emacs evanglist
2014-07-20T06:16:06Z |3b| wouldn't use org mode for text, but that's just because i'm too annoyed by using it for other things :p
2014-07-20T06:16:45Z beach: We need to distinguish between the source format and the presentation format.
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2014-07-20T06:17:09Z beach: The source format needs to handle certain things such as semantic markup and macros.
2014-07-20T06:18:37Z H4ns: writing macros in ocaml seems an attractive alternative.  cl would be even better, but i can't see anyone growing a useable cl based typesetting alternative.
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2014-07-20T06:19:12Z beach: H4ns: Didier Verna suggested it, but I don't know whether he acted upon it or not.
2014-07-20T06:19:13Z Guthur: beach: that's why i was thinking orgmode it has ways to do both of those
2014-07-20T06:19:59Z Guthur: and the presentation can be certainly be separate, it has some basic exporters already
2014-07-20T06:19:59Z H4ns: beach: there is cl-typesetting, but as far as i have looked at it, it was too incomplete to not be a nuisance to work with
2014-07-20T06:20:26Z beach: Guthur: Maybe you are right.  I don't see the fit right now, though.
2014-07-20T06:20:45Z beach: H4ns: Yes, incomplete and unmaintained.
2014-07-20T06:21:49Z H4ns: org-mode is a religion, not a typesetting system
2014-07-20T06:22:04Z dseagrav_: It's unrelated to everything, but apparently Sony Korea just accidentally uploaded an entire movie to youtube instead of the trailer for the movie. No word yet if they intend to prosecute people who watch it.
2014-07-20T06:22:35Z beach: Anyway, I don't think it is a good start for a reference manual to contemplate writing the typesetting system first.  I will use LaTeX for now, because it has all the features I want.  If someone wants to do something else, more power to them.
2014-07-20T06:22:38Z H4ns: is it a korean movie?
2014-07-20T06:22:44Z dseagrav_: No
2014-07-20T06:22:48Z dseagrav_: Korean subtitled
2014-07-20T06:23:01Z dseagrav_: The Amazing Spider-Man 2
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2014-07-20T06:23:33Z H4ns: beach: use the tool that gets into your way the least
2014-07-20T06:24:05Z dseagrav: Apparently they haven't noticed yet and it's still up
2014-07-20T06:24:16Z beach: H4ns: I agree.  Though, it could be argued that I don't know all the tools and that learning a better one would be a minor task that would improve productivity later.
2014-07-20T06:24:44Z H4ns: beach: hence patoline.  tex is incredibly crufty and arcane
2014-07-20T06:24:57Z beach: Sure.
2014-07-20T06:25:00Z dseagrav: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IRN6b7Sk7I <-- Someone is so very fired.
2014-07-20T06:26:03Z beach: H4ns: I hesitate because one of my colleagues who is an OCaml advocate is convinced that it is pretty much dead.
2014-07-20T06:26:51Z H4ns: beach: that'd be a strong case for tex, which is eternal
2014-07-20T06:27:14Z |3b|: does patoline allow arbitrary ocaml code in documents and if so is it sandboxed?
2014-07-20T06:27:32Z |3b|: not that i have any idea what random TeX code might be doing either
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2014-07-20T06:28:06Z beach: H4ns: I don't know if that was ironic or not.  I think we agree that TeX is not great, but it seems to be alive still.
2014-07-20T06:28:07Z |3b| supposes most of the situations i'd be building docs with it either i wrote them or i'm building code too
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2014-07-20T06:29:22Z H4ns: beach: it was not ironic.  it is a bit depressing to see that it is still the best thing for new stuff that is being written.
2014-07-20T06:29:37Z beach: Definitely depressing.
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2014-07-20T06:44:00Z H4ns: i somehow forgot to suggest using docbook or even semantic xml as source format.  easy to transform and extend, well known tool chains exist.  can even be parsed with cl easily.
2014-07-20T06:44:40Z H4ns: i'll definitely go with docbook for my next documentation project.
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2014-07-20T06:46:33Z |3b|: what would you use for editing docbook?
2014-07-20T06:46:39Z H4ns: emacs
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2014-07-20T06:46:59Z |3b|: any modes to make it nicer or just raw xml?
2014-07-20T06:47:08Z H4ns: but some coworkers will probably use idea, eclipse or jedit.  i don't insist on writing all documentation myself, see?  :)
2014-07-20T06:47:11Z H4ns: just emacs.
2014-07-20T06:47:21Z H4ns: nxml-mode works for me.
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2014-07-20T07:35:01Z schjetne: beach: what's the general opinion on Texinfo?
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2014-07-20T07:44:02Z beach: schjetne: I don't know. :)
2014-07-20T07:44:17Z beach: schjetne: I personally think it is not too bad for textual documentation.
2014-07-20T07:44:34Z beach: schjetne: Not so good when you need figures and stuff.
2014-07-20T07:44:36Z pgomes: Hi
2014-07-20T07:44:43Z beach: Hello pgomes.
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2014-07-20T07:47:27Z pgomes: back :P
2014-07-20T07:47:30Z schjetne: I've been somewhat unhappy with the current state of document preparation and viewing systems
2014-07-20T07:47:41Z beach: schjetne: You are not alone.
2014-07-20T07:47:57Z beach: schjetne: s/somewhat//
2014-07-20T07:48:29Z beach: schjetne: Do you have a plan?
2014-07-20T07:48:39Z joe-w-bimedina: I wa wondering if someone could help me figure out why if I define :float as a parameter and then pass it to mem-aref it takes over 100 times longer to run than if I just call it normally.  I made a gist of the repl session where this happened here: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/f9ec66cd5ac8917a97c0 the $ is my time macro
2014-07-20T07:49:21Z schjetne: And my usual solution is to tell myself LaTeX is good enough
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2014-07-20T07:49:55Z beach: schjetne: Aww! :(
2014-07-20T07:49:59Z beach: Too easy.
2014-07-20T07:50:15Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: have you considered possibility that your gists are not helpful and you should stop putting them everywhere?
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2014-07-20T07:50:51Z joe-w-bimedina: I thought I made a good one, sorry about that, how can I improve it
2014-07-20T07:51:01Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: also, $ is not standard macro. I have no idea what it does.
2014-07-20T07:51:04Z Shinmera: By not posting it
2014-07-20T07:51:27Z hitecnologys: Indeed.
2014-07-20T07:52:38Z joe-w-bimedina: I update gist with the time macro, if you wanted to see it
2014-07-20T07:54:36Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: what's the point of your $?
2014-07-20T07:54:52Z joe-w-bimedina: to time my functions
2014-07-20T07:55:04Z hitecnologys: You're timing them wrong..
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2014-07-20T07:55:27Z hitecnologys: You get results of many calls but not the average.
2014-07-20T07:56:14Z hitecnologys: Sum of results may be useful but average time is usually much more useful.
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2014-07-20T07:56:39Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: cffi uses compiler-macros to optimize things like mem-aref when it knows the type at compile time
2014-07-20T07:56:49Z joe-w-bimedina: ok I appreciate the info
2014-07-20T07:57:17Z joe-w-bimedina: is there any way around that
2014-07-20T07:57:36Z schjetne: beach: I think Info has interaction done right, but at the expense of figures and typography. PDF is great for prints, but for screen viewing it's mostly a paper simulator. Systems like HTML and pasteboard-oriented programs such as Scribus and its proprietary counterparts depend entirely on the skill of the author.
2014-07-20T07:57:38Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: besides, on 1kk calls DOTIMES will affect the result.
2014-07-20T07:58:14Z joe-w-bimedina: what is 1kk
2014-07-20T07:58:22Z H4ns: it is groundhog day!
2014-07-20T07:58:28Z joe-w-bimedina: oh 1000000
2014-07-20T07:58:32Z |3b|: you can either write similar compiler macros for your code as well if you pass known types to them, or you can put the mem-aref calls inside a case so you have a few calls to specific types
2014-07-20T07:58:40Z beach: schjetne: Sounds like we need something better.
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2014-07-20T07:58:57Z Shinmera: H4ns: Every day is groundhog day
2014-07-20T07:59:02Z H4ns: Shinmera: yeah!
2014-07-20T07:59:24Z schjetne: I wonder how Symbolics Concordia stacks up against these. I've never seen it other than on YouTube
2014-07-20T07:59:55Z beach: schjetne: Don't know.  Sorry!
2014-07-20T07:59:57Z joe-w-bimedina: can you expand on that a bit 3b
2014-07-20T08:00:02Z H4ns: schjetne: probably very nice if you live 30 years in the past.  but then, it shares that with tex :)
2014-07-20T08:00:04Z joe-w-bimedina: thecase part
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2014-07-20T08:00:36Z schjetne: I recently read this: http://practicaltypography.com/
2014-07-20T08:00:52Z schjetne: Caused me to re-think the problem somewhat
2014-07-20T08:02:00Z |3b|: for example (ecase a (:float (mem-aref b :float)) (:uint (mem-aref b :uint)) (t (mem-aref b a))) if you expect :float and :uint to be used in performance critical places
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2014-07-20T08:02:40Z beach: schjetne: How about you write a requirements specification for a new system?
2014-07-20T08:02:41Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: optimization is the last thing you should do. Seriously.
2014-07-20T08:02:49Z joe-w-bimedina: ok I get it, thanks 3b, i appreciate that:)
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2014-07-20T08:03:44Z joe-w-bimedina: just get the code right first?...I be t you mean for the whole library right?
2014-07-20T08:04:07Z |3b|: get the code right and actually use it
2014-07-20T08:04:12Z hitecnologys: Yes. Write the code, then optimize if necessary.
2014-07-20T08:04:46Z |3b|: optimizing without using it is just making it harder to fix all the things you will find out need changed when you try to use it for real
2014-07-20T08:05:40Z stassats: especially when you aren't experienced
2014-07-20T08:05:59Z schjetne: beach: I suppose I could. I should probably also check what other attempts have accomplished, for instance I had never heard about Patoline until today
2014-07-20T08:06:22Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks will do
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2014-07-20T08:07:14Z beach: schjetne: Sure.  Note that I am not suggesting you write a design document; just the requirements specification.   It will be less controversial that a design document, and it will make many things clearer.
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2014-07-20T08:08:47Z schjetne: beach: I've been relatively sheltered from the horrors of MS Office documents, but now I'm working on an enterprise system that will hopefully be less of an eyesore. I'll surely learn something from that.
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2014-07-20T08:09:33Z beach: schjetne: OK.  Please share your experience when you feel ready!
2014-07-20T08:09:42Z beach: schjetne: That website looks quite nice.
2014-07-20T08:10:13Z schjetne: The most important part is why we should care about it in the first place
2014-07-20T08:10:21Z schjetne: Why typography matters.
2014-07-20T08:11:01Z theos: why
2014-07-20T08:11:03Z beach: schjetne: Reading it now.
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2014-07-20T08:12:56Z stassats: why do ligatures matter?
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2014-07-20T08:16:12Z schjetne: Unfortunately the site requires proprietary fonts to render correctly, which I have no good answer for how to fix. I've talked to some graphical designers, and they seem content with the way things are, the only solution I see is as a community buy sublicensing rights to important font families and release them as free software, but that's a huge expense and doesn't seem worth it over simply buying proprietary licenses for most users.
2014-07-20T08:16:31Z schjetne: That, or declare fonts "not software"
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2014-07-20T10:05:13Z theos: schjetne create your own fonts!
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2014-07-20T10:40:09Z beach: schjetne: I started it: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Doclang
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2014-07-20T11:36:08Z schjetne: beach: Nice, I'll have a look right away
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2014-07-20T11:38:57Z beach: schjetne: Don't get too excited.  I am just writing things down and giving the thing a name before I forget all of it.
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2014-07-20T14:49:36Z AeroNotix: is there a desktop bar for linux written in Lisp?
2014-07-20T14:50:31Z hitecnologys: AeroNotix: desktop bar?
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2014-07-20T14:53:24Z Guthur: there is a Linux Window manager written CL, StumpWM http://www.nongnu.org/stumpwm/
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2014-07-20T14:57:49Z AeroNotix: Guthur: that's what I'm using it
2014-07-20T14:57:56Z AeroNotix: s/it//
2014-07-20T14:58:02Z AeroNotix: but it doesn't have a systray
2014-07-20T14:58:12Z AeroNotix: so I was thinking if there's something like xmobar, but written in CL
2014-07-20T14:58:15Z mood: StumpWM has mode-line
2014-07-20T14:58:17Z Guthur: ah, probably would have been worth being a little more specific
2014-07-20T14:58:22Z AeroNotix: mood: oh, will look
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2014-07-20T14:58:36Z AeroNotix: Guthur: sigh
2014-07-20T14:58:51Z Guthur: well know one knew you meant in the context of StumpWM
2014-07-20T14:59:04Z Guthur: s/well know/well
2014-07-20T14:59:22Z mood: There's also stumptray, but I haven't used it
2014-07-20T14:59:45Z AeroNotix: mood: awesome :) Will check that out
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2014-07-20T14:59:53Z AeroNotix: Guthur: it doesn't have to be in the context of stump at all
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2014-07-20T16:21:43Z rpg: Any SLIME maintainers about?
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2014-07-20T16:45:47Z Vivitron: Neat: sbcl's disassembler annotates it's output with data from the last sprof run
2014-07-20T16:48:30Z Vivitron: e.g. MOV [RBX], RBP ; 8/656 samples
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2014-07-20T17:13:51Z AeroNotix: rpg: what do you need to know?
2014-07-20T17:14:21Z rpg: AeroNotix: I was going to ask a question about the texinfo docs (found a bug), but I think I've solved the problem and provided a pull request for the fix.
2014-07-20T17:14:27Z AeroNotix: awes
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2014-07-20T17:16:18Z AeroNotix: what's the best tutorial to #'format out there?
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2014-07-20T17:18:35Z Shinmera: probably PCL's 'format recipes'
2014-07-20T17:18:46Z Shinmera: if that doesn't suffice, the CLHS
2014-07-20T17:19:02Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: PCL is.. ok
2014-07-20T17:19:24Z Shinmera: I don't know what you mean by that
2014-07-20T17:19:37Z AeroNotix: It's not as in-depth as I'd like
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2014-07-20T17:19:47Z Shinmera: yeah, that's where the CLHS comes in
2014-07-20T17:19:54Z Shinmera: it describes all the format options quite well.
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2014-07-20T17:22:51Z Shinmera: I mean, the CLHS suffices for me and I don't know of any tutorial-like texts on format other than what PCL has.
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2014-07-20T17:23:07Z Shinmera: There might be, but if I recall my googling properly I never found anything
2014-07-20T17:23:45Z AeroNotix: trying to find a good section in CLHS
2014-07-20T17:24:30Z Shinmera: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/22_c.htm
2014-07-20T17:24:42Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: you da man/woman!
2014-07-20T17:24:53Z Shinmera: Glad I could help :)
2014-07-20T17:24:58Z AeroNotix: :)
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2014-07-20T17:25:20Z Shinmera: Still, it might be worth writing up a complete article that explains all the options in different wording than the clhs does.
2014-07-20T17:25:45Z Shinmera: Not sure when I'll have time for that, but I'll put it on my todo.
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2014-07-20T17:25:59Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: there's a few problems with CLHS I have :)
2014-07-20T17:26:16Z AeroNotix: for a quick reference in general I use this: http://jtra.cz/stuff/lisp/sclr/index.html
2014-07-20T17:26:30Z antoszka: AeroNotix: seen clqr?
2014-07-20T17:26:34Z Shinmera: I never liked the simplified reference
2014-07-20T17:26:35Z AeroNotix: antoszka: nope
2014-07-20T17:26:39Z antoszka: AeroNotix: check it out
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2014-07-20T17:26:45Z AeroNotix: looking now
2014-07-20T17:26:56Z antoszka: (figuratively and not)
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2014-07-20T17:27:26Z AeroNotix: :)
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2014-07-20T17:28:28Z antoszka: I mean, checking it out makes sense if you got the tex machinery to build yourself an updated PDF every time you update your checkout :)
2014-07-20T17:30:44Z Shinmera: Xach: If I recall you have a page on your site that acts like the specbot here and redirects to the clhs. What was that again?
2014-07-20T17:31:01Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: l1sp.org
2014-07-20T17:31:26Z Shinmera: Aaah, right. Thanks!
2014-07-20T17:31:32Z Shinmera: why didn't I bookmark that before
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2014-07-20T17:35:03Z hitecnologys: That would be very nice if someone added support for quickdocs to l1sp. Having a way to search though all the available documentation is good.
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2014-07-20T17:46:29Z pjb: hitecnologys: easy: git clone http://l1sp.org/sources l1sp ; cd l1sp ; emacs * ; git commit -a -m 'Added support for quickdocs' ; git push
2014-07-20T17:46:57Z pjb: hitecnologys: what? You mean you're using a service that's not AGPL3 and that doesn't provides its sources???
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2014-07-20T18:09:47Z Shinmera: truly a crime against humanity
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2014-07-20T18:14:27Z oleo: eat yerr röckcheeeeeen, meow meow :)
2014-07-20T18:14:30Z oleo: hahahaha
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2014-07-20T18:38:16Z hitecnologys: pjb: I'm too lazy to implement it myself.
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2014-07-20T18:40:50Z hitecnologys: I remember Xach having sources of l1sp on his GitHub page, though.
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2014-07-20T19:51:23Z AeroNotix: any good recent lisp talks / lectures?
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2014-07-20T20:12:38Z PuercoPop: There is also http://xach.com/clhs
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2014-07-20T20:44:19Z |3b|: always nice to be able to see a frame in sldb with no debug info, hit C-u C-c C-c on it, move down to a restartable frame and hit R, and get full debug info for the function that didn't previously have it :)
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2014-07-20T22:27:48Z poseidons-minion: so with certain libraries I can program lisp but javacript will come out? and make nice javacript web forms and search results for my website?
2014-07-20T22:27:59Z poseidons-minion: sounds megafun
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2014-07-20T22:41:42Z stanislav: poseidons-minion: yes, with parenscript.  Parenscript isn't identical to Common Lisp (actually it's a DSL), but it looks a lot like CL, is lispy and (the most important) you have all the power of metaprogramming at your disposal.
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2014-07-20T22:43:11Z poseidons-minion: is there a tutorial?  can I make web forms, validate input, sessions? etc? all while using js to avoid full page refeshes?
2014-07-20T22:45:20Z kristof: stanislav: Have you heard of Radul's propagators?
2014-07-20T22:45:21Z minion: kristof, memo from beach: Yes, I agree that the reference manual should include de facto standard libraries.
2014-07-20T22:46:09Z PuercoPop: poseidons-minion: check https://github.com/Inaimathi/formlets he also has a blogpost regarding the problem he was trying to solve
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2014-07-20T22:49:40Z stanislav: kristof: I'm afraid no, but I'm googling. :)
2014-07-20T22:49:44Z kristof: minion: memo for beach: I see, because if you had said no, I don't think such a project would end up as anything more than a slightly extended version of ANSI Common Lisp. In that case, I'll think about this some more and write up a CDR document for it and maybe I and anyone else who's interested can start drafting a TOC.
2014-07-20T22:49:44Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-07-20T22:52:05Z kristof: stanislav: Guy Steele's been working on it, too. It's essentially an inherently concurrent abstraction that unifies constraint propagation, dataflow architectures, logic programming, . . .
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2014-07-20T22:53:29Z stanislav: kristof: oh, looks great
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2014-07-20T22:54:42Z kristof: ...Did I mistake him for someone else?
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2014-07-20T23:38:15Z stickittothemain: Who here has a lot of spare time and is bored?
2014-07-20T23:38:38Z kristof: I'm never bored, but shoot
2014-07-20T23:39:06Z stickittothemain: do you know any languages besides lisp(don't worry, lisp will come in)
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2014-07-20T23:39:07Z stickittothemain: ?
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2014-07-20T23:39:17Z kristof: Of course.
2014-07-20T23:39:21Z stickittothemain: like?
2014-07-20T23:40:08Z kristof: Haskell, go, C, C++, Java, Python, Scheme, Clojure, and... yes, I think that's it.
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2014-07-20T23:40:16Z stickittothemain: okay cool
2014-07-20T23:40:31Z kristof: With varying degrees of knowledge, of course. For instance, don't ask me a question about Python.
2014-07-20T23:40:46Z stickittothemain: you most definitely know about lispOS and lisp machines and such
2014-07-20T23:41:12Z kristof: I know *of* them.
2014-07-20T23:41:21Z stickittothemain: yeah
2014-07-20T23:41:41Z kristof: stickittothemain: Whatever you ask will be persistent in this irc channel and anyone else smarter than I (which is everyone) will be able to contribute an answer, so ask away
2014-07-20T23:41:49Z stickittothemain: so, have you ever wanted to make an operating system?
2014-07-20T23:41:59Z stickittothemain: i know that's a big project
2014-07-20T23:42:10Z kristof: Only as much as I've wanted to boil an ocean.
2014-07-20T23:42:21Z stickittothemain: basically, lispENV more than lispOS
2014-07-20T23:42:24Z kristof: Have I ever wanted to create a computing *environment*? Yes.
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2014-07-20T23:42:32Z kristof: Oh, now you're speaking.
2014-07-20T23:42:58Z stickittothemain: all of the extremely low level stuff will be in c and assembly
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2014-07-20T23:43:05Z stickittothemain: and everything else in lisp
2014-07-20T23:43:19Z stickittothemain: picture (malloc)
2014-07-20T23:44:58Z kristof: I'd prefer Rust. Their garbage collector is faster than C's.
2014-07-20T23:45:10Z kristof hopes someone chuckles
2014-07-20T23:45:15Z stickittothemain: lol
2014-07-20T23:45:19Z stickittothemain chuckles
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2014-07-20T23:45:55Z kristof: stickittothemain: Say precisely what it is you're thinking of, all at once
2014-07-20T23:46:33Z stickittothemain: an operating system, written mostly in lisp, designed for lisp coding
2014-07-20T23:47:22Z kristof: This is 2014, the age of homogeneous language computing environments is over.
2014-07-20T23:47:45Z stickittothemain: but it would be kinda cool. I did ask if anyone was bored
2014-07-20T23:47:57Z kristof: You did not ask if anyone was crazy
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2014-07-20T23:48:45Z stickittothemain: is anyone crazy?
2014-07-20T23:48:48Z kristof: stickittothemain: Who will write the networking stack? The drivers?
2014-07-20T23:49:03Z kristof: stickittothemain: Do you actually want those things rewritten? What will that give you?
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2014-07-20T23:49:24Z stickittothemain: network? ha. who needs that when you can use lisp!
2014-07-20T23:49:30Z heddwch: ...
2014-07-20T23:49:36Z stickittothemain: lisp > internet
2014-07-20T23:49:45Z stickittothemain: lisp >= internet
2014-07-20T23:50:09Z kristof: stickittothemain: If you're using linux right now, and you probably are, you should be aware that systemd is the product of years of engineering? And so is iptables? And so is the majority of the linux kernel?
2014-07-20T23:50:32Z stickittothemain: i know
2014-07-20T23:50:48Z kristof: stickittothemain: And what about wayland? Do you really think we should just scrap and wander into the desert, looking for the promise land, just because it was not written in a language that uses many parentheses?
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2014-07-20T23:50:55Z stickittothemain: have you seen kolibriOS?
2014-07-20T23:51:29Z stickittothemain: it's a full operating system that can fit on a floppy disk
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2014-07-20T23:52:20Z heddwch: That's because it (relatively) doesn't do much
2014-07-20T23:52:37Z stickittothemain: it has a text-based web browser
2014-07-20T23:52:49Z heddwch: I have a GUI one
2014-07-20T23:52:50Z stickittothemain: it has a gui
2014-07-20T23:53:06Z heddwch: with images, JS, etc
2014-07-20T23:53:11Z stickittothemain: sure
2014-07-20T23:53:12Z kristof: stickittothemain: What's your point?
2014-07-20T23:53:27Z stickittothemain: kristof: i'm not really sure...
2014-07-20T23:53:35Z kristof: stickittothemain: That makes two of us, then.
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2014-07-20T23:54:08Z stickittothemain: maybe #osdev would be interested
2014-07-20T23:54:21Z kristof: stickittothemain: I'm sorry if I'm being disparaging. I'm a big fan of big ideas, and I've got a lot of pipedreams, but I need something specific I can grapple with.
2014-07-20T23:54:46Z heddwch: They're the same
2014-07-20T23:54:55Z stickittothemain: that is totally fine kristof
2014-07-20T23:55:44Z heddwch: We hear a lot of nonspecific ideas and have nothing to offer unless you have a problem to solve
2014-07-20T23:55:58Z kristof: ^
2014-07-20T23:56:09Z stickittothemain: i'm gonna take this to osdev
2014-07-20T23:56:30Z kristof: Go for it!
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2014-07-20T23:57:51Z kristof: In other news: I was reading this article about the "cost" of exception handling in C#, and it amounted to (on average) about .6% increase in execution time. And that was on 32-bit systems; on 64-bit architectures, it's almost nonexistent.
2014-07-20T23:58:04Z heddwch: huh, interesting
2014-07-20T23:58:22Z kristof: heddwch: I can link you if you want but if you know how exception handling is handled in Lisp then you'll learn nothing
2014-07-20T23:58:58Z heddwch: I don't, really, so I'm interested
2014-07-20T23:59:33Z xristos: kristof: sounds interesting
2014-07-20T23:59:43Z xristos: when in doubt, paste the link ;p
2014-07-20T23:59:45Z kristof: heddwch: Conceptually it's really simple! When you hit a piece of code that establishes a handler, it conses a struct onto the end of the current list of available handlers.
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2014-07-21T00:00:50Z kristof: heddwch: And whenever you actually throw an exception, you jump to the most recently established exception handler, see if it'll handle, and if not, you work your way back through the list until you find a savvy piece of code
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2014-07-21T00:01:35Z kristof: heddwch: When you do, you execute the handler associated. But FIRST, you actually work your way through the list of handlers a *second* time and do "cleanup". In C++, that means destructors/finalizers. In Lisp, that means unwind-protect forms.
2014-07-21T00:01:47Z kristof: heddwch: in SBCL, which supports finalizers, that might mean both :)
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2014-07-21T00:03:01Z kristof: heddwch: in a language without restarts you 1) unwind the stack all the way back to the handler and 2) execute all the cleanup blocks that got passed along the way. But if you have restarts, you only unwind all the way back to the restart, not the handler
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2014-07-21T00:05:08Z kristof: heddwch: xristos: http://preshing.com/20110807/the-cost-of-enabling-exception-handling/ here's the article if you care (which you said you did!).
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2014-07-21T00:05:17Z xristos: kristof: but the handler code has to run first i presume
2014-07-21T00:05:25Z xristos: before you unwind the stack to the restart
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2014-07-21T00:05:47Z heddwch: Ah, okay, that makes sense. Somehow I had it in the 'magic' category and so assumed more complexity
2014-07-21T00:05:49Z xristos: so how does that work? do handlers have their own separate stack?
2014-07-21T00:06:11Z heddwch: Thanks for the link, too :)
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2014-07-21T00:06:48Z kristof: heddwch: That article has the "benchmarks" (which prove nothing spectacular except what I initially thought: that adding exception handling is very minimal in terms of cost, and benefits the programmer tremendously)
2014-07-21T00:07:23Z kristof: heddwch: It links to the *real* article I'm talking about, which dives into the depths of some of the operating system provided exception handling stuff.
2014-07-21T00:07:37Z heddwch: ahh, okay
2014-07-21T00:07:47Z kristof: xristos: I'm sorry, but isn't "handler code" just calling a restart?
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2014-07-21T00:14:09Z kristof: xristos: If you're talking about handler-case then just pretend that the restart is your error-form and the analogy works.
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2014-07-21T03:22:31Z certeit: ahh it's a wonderful day
2014-07-21T03:22:48Z kristof: Everyday is a wonderful day!
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2014-07-21T03:44:36Z kristof: Bah! Why can't people add their libraries to Cliki?
2014-07-21T03:45:54Z kristof: I was traipsing through Xach's blog looking for something when I stumbled across this: https://github.com/mikelevins/apis
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2014-07-21T03:46:04Z kristof: And I wish I had known about it before!
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2014-07-21T03:56:59Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-07-21T03:57:00Z minion: beach, memo from kristof: I see, because if you had said no, I don't think such a project would end up as anything more than a slightly extended version of ANSI Common Lisp. In that case, I'll think about this some more and write up a CDR document for it and maybe I and anyone else who's interested can start drafting a TOC.
2014-07-21T03:57:16Z beach: kristof: Around?
2014-07-21T03:57:20Z kristof: ping
2014-07-21T03:57:26Z kristof: was about to send you another memo too
2014-07-21T03:57:40Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/CL-reference
2014-07-21T03:57:52Z beach: I started a reference manual, in case you are interested.
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2014-07-21T03:58:31Z kristof: beach: You likely read this blog post when he wrote it but it came to mind in the wee hours of the night after you mentioned the manual again
2014-07-21T03:58:35Z kristof: beach: https://xach.livejournal.com/319717.html
2014-07-21T03:58:39Z kristof: beach: Yes, I am very interested.
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2014-07-21T04:00:15Z beach: I hadn't read that blog before.  Thanks.
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2014-07-21T04:01:18Z beach: kristof: One more thing before I forget: LispOS is not just about implementing a traditional OS in Lisp.  It is about a totally different environment: https://github.com/robert-strandh/LispOS
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2014-07-21T04:03:47Z beach: kristof: For what it's worth: I am incapable of starting a document by writing the table of contents.  I write what comes to mind, then I use my computer tools to shuffle it around when I have a better idea about how to structure it.
2014-07-21T04:03:49Z kristof: beach: Yes, you showed me that, and I agree, but I just wanted to point out to that person that wanting to "write an entire operating system" in another language just for funsies without any good reason why is a massive and pointless undertaking
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2014-07-21T04:05:09Z beach: kristof: You should think a bit about the "pointless" part.  Some people think my SICL project is "pointless", but let me remind you that it generated 3 papers at ILC, so it has been worth every minute of time I spent on it so far.
2014-07-21T04:05:16Z kristof: beach: I alternate back and forth between sketching out unified designs and jotting down a lot of specific details. That's me trying to be organized and deliberate, but also recognizing the fact that if I think of something worth writing down I want to do that promptly before I forget.
2014-07-21T04:06:31Z beach: kristof: Sure, we all have different ways of getting the job done.
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2014-07-21T04:07:14Z kristof: beach: Well, I was trying to goad him into saying something specific about what he wanted, what dissatisfied him, etc. There are lots of good reasons to want to mess with operating system design.
2014-07-21T04:07:48Z beach: kristof: Sure, just saying.
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2014-07-21T04:09:52Z beach: kristof: CS research is determined by "fashion".  OS design is not fashionable at the moment because the people who determine the fashion think that Unix is as good as it gets, or that new OSes would be "pointless".  I disagree, and I have the luxury of being able to disagree and work on improving current OS design.
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2014-07-21T04:12:04Z beach: kristof: And with respect to network stacks and such, heddwch pointed out to me that MacOS X has an object-oriented set of device drivers.  It would be great to attempt to write that stuff with a superior object-oriented system like CLOS.
2014-07-21T04:12:20Z beach: Stuff like that could very well be publishable.
2014-07-21T04:12:57Z seabot: beach: you know IOKit was originally implemented in Objective-C on NeXTSTEP
2014-07-21T04:13:12Z beach: seabot: I didn't know.  Thanks!
2014-07-21T04:13:17Z seabot: when it came to OS X it was rewritten in C++ for performance and maybe to some degree safety/predictability
2014-07-21T04:13:28Z beach: Yes, I see.  Makes sense.
2014-07-21T04:13:55Z seabot: and it's not even C++, it's that weird subset of it called "Embedded C++" that disallows a lot of the craziness of C++
2014-07-21T04:14:11Z beach: When I read the I/O kit documentation and they talk about the difference between kernel space and user space drivers, I get excited about trying it out for a LispOS where no such distinction exists.
2014-07-21T04:14:14Z brucem: kristof: the sad thing about Apis that you linked above is that it doesn't do things like promise pipelining.
2014-07-21T04:14:52Z kristof: beach: You know, there's nothing like PARC anymore, either. Microsoft Research pumps out some interesting stuff but other than that, I can't think of a room full of creative people just doing... whatever, at present.
2014-07-21T04:15:33Z beach: kristof: That's a very pessimistic view of things.
2014-07-21T04:15:40Z kristof: A little! I'm a pessimist.
2014-07-21T04:15:44Z heddwch: Beach: The main thing is that he didn't know what he wanted, or rather seemed not to want anything other than some vague talking about it that he wanted us to do. A lisp-based OS could be good, but not (specifically) because it's lisp; rather, that lisp would fit well with the goals
2014-07-21T04:15:47Z seabot: I don't think it's true kristof
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2014-07-21T04:16:01Z seabot: there's no one creative powerhouse like PARC, but people are still doing new innovative things
2014-07-21T04:16:27Z seabot: the sad reality of it is that lisp-based OSes are not a very new-innovative thing anymore :\
2014-07-21T04:16:41Z kristof: Call me crazy, but I don't really see anything that fundamentally transforms the way we doing computing.
2014-07-21T04:16:44Z beach: seabot: How so?
2014-07-21T04:16:48Z kristof: Maybe I'm not looking hard enough.
2014-07-21T04:16:51Z Zhivago: The real question is -- what benefit do you hope to derive from one?
2014-07-21T04:16:53Z dseagrav: beach: That's not necessarily the case. Nobody says you can't run a user process in user space with the rest of the address space mapped read-only. If you wanted to be really clever you could even put SELinux-like context info in the tags and get security-safety to go with your type-safety.
2014-07-21T04:16:58Z seabot: well, to be completely honest it has been done and it was done a long time ago
2014-07-21T04:17:00Z seabot: yeah Zhivago
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2014-07-21T04:17:08Z heddwch: If it were a Haskell OS, it might be innovative, but that's not necessarily a good thing to strive for on its own
2014-07-21T04:17:09Z seabot: nowadays people are doing research into things like SAFER operating systems
2014-07-21T04:17:11Z brucem: kristof: what do you think of Mirage and the work being done there?
2014-07-21T04:17:14Z heddwch: Language doesn't matter, functionality does.
2014-07-21T04:17:16Z seabot: and that potentially gives you a real benefit
2014-07-21T04:17:37Z kristof: heddwch: No. I refuse to let anything real-time be managed by a thunk-crazy, nondeterministic programming language runtime.
2014-07-21T04:17:51Z seabot: and in a world where you often don't even want to allow JITed code for safety reasons, a lisp OS is a terrifying thing
2014-07-21T04:17:52Z beach: seabot: Are you referring to Genera?
2014-07-21T04:17:57Z dseagrav: beach: If you did that, even if someone figured out how to break out of your lisp "jail" and execute arbitrary binary code they'd be foiled because they couldn't break out of page protection without a kernel exploit.
2014-07-21T04:18:03Z seabot: beach: yes- though I've also never used it
2014-07-21T04:18:05Z heddwch: kristof: I don't remember mentioning real-time, so I'm not sure what you're saying.
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2014-07-21T04:18:47Z seabot: well heddwch we WANT user interfaces to be "real time"
2014-07-21T04:18:52Z seabot: not necessarily in the sense of an RTOS
2014-07-21T04:18:52Z kristof: heddwch: A haskell based operating system wouldn't be innovative, it'd be a cludge.
2014-07-21T04:18:57Z seabot: but it is soft real time
2014-07-21T04:19:02Z kristof: Right, I did mean soft real time.
2014-07-21T04:19:27Z heddwch: Oh, I don't like Haskell personally, I was just mentioning something stupid that hasn't been done yet
2014-07-21T04:19:28Z seabot: in an ideal GUI you have (in modern day) about 16ms to do everything necessary to respond to user input
2014-07-21T04:19:30Z heddwch: Thus, innovative =p
2014-07-21T04:19:37Z seabot: heddwch: MSR did it
2014-07-21T04:19:40Z seabot: barrelfish i think was the name?
2014-07-21T04:19:42Z heddwch: :(
2014-07-21T04:19:46Z kristof: seabot: You mean singularity.
2014-07-21T04:19:51Z Zhivago: 16ms is a long time.
2014-07-21T04:19:54Z kristof: seabot: Oh, I thought you were still talking about safety.
2014-07-21T04:19:58Z heddwch: Ah, I heard about that, but I didn't know it was Haskell
2014-07-21T04:20:37Z seabot: Zhivago: sure, when you're writing code in terms of telling your computer what to do. when you're working in the beautiful, abstract world of computation and homoiconicity, 16ms suddenly disappears
2014-07-21T04:20:41Z kristof: brucem: I took a look at the code and realized it wasn't anything special, anyway.
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2014-07-21T04:21:05Z kristof: brucem: A real actors library wouldn't implement its actors like classes, anyway.
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2014-07-21T04:21:26Z seabot: kristof: ah. i don't really know enough about research in that area wrt safety. i know work is being done, though!
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2014-07-21T04:44:07Z phadthai: minion: memo for beach: IRT the CL-reference: LaTeX for the final format is a great idea, but possibly that collaboration could be easier via a Wiki for the initial draft?  The public domain is invalid depending on region (i.e. non-revokable automatic copyright), so chosing a distribution license might be worth considering (i.e. Creative Commons)?
2014-07-21T04:44:07Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-07-21T04:53:01Z kristof: phadthai: Github is a collaboration tool
2014-07-21T04:53:12Z phadthai: sure
2014-07-21T04:53:22Z kristof: And there's such a thing as a master copy, which is important
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2014-07-21T04:55:19Z phadthai: the point was that LaTeX source and VCS is not necessarily optimal for documentation writers
2014-07-21T04:55:40Z nightfly: google docs maybe?
2014-07-21T04:55:42Z phadthai: great for post-editing
2014-07-21T04:55:43Z kristof: On LaTeX I agree. On VCS, I do not.
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2014-07-21T04:59:16Z kristof: ...I really, really like Arensi's sharpL reader macro.
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2014-07-21T05:46:45Z joe-w-bimedina: I noticed that when you make an array with make-array it prints a printed representation of it at the repl eg #(1 2 3), how would
2014-07-21T05:46:57Z joe-w-bimedina: I do that for my own functions
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2014-07-21T05:47:51Z pillton: That output has nothing to do with functions. It is "printing" the object.
2014-07-21T05:47:55Z pillton: See PRINT-OBJECT.
2014-07-21T05:48:03Z pillton: clhs print-object
2014-07-21T05:48:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pr_obj.htm
2014-07-21T05:48:16Z joe-w-bimedina: cool thanks man:)
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2014-07-21T05:49:20Z pillton hopes that joe-w-bimedina doesn't ask about the pretty printer.
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2014-07-21T05:51:10Z joe-w-bimedina: is that honest or do you want to tell me/think I should know about it:)   also i'm on SBCL/Ubuntu, where is the source code for MAKE-ARRAY
2014-07-21T05:52:19Z phadthai: the implementation's repl does that (or slime's repl), not make-array
2014-07-21T05:53:34Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks, do you know where the MAKE-ARRAY source is though, I would like to study it to code better
2014-07-21T05:55:25Z pillton: joe-w-bimedina: http://hastebin.com/luhuberipo
2014-07-21T05:58:18Z Bike: use slime, do M-.
2014-07-21T05:58:26Z Bike: sbcl's make array is gonna be pretty hard to read though
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2014-07-21T06:00:12Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks, for that Bike,
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2014-07-21T06:02:21Z Bike: as i recall, it's a few pages of wrapper crap for the complicated arrays, and a call to some internal compiler things for simple ones, so
2014-07-21T06:03:57Z joe-w-bimedina: be interesting to see how it was made to be so fast
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2014-07-21T06:07:39Z kristof: Bike: you actually read the source?
2014-07-21T06:07:59Z Bike: not recently, but sure why not
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2014-07-21T06:08:12Z Bike: oh, of course it has jack all to do with printing arrays, though
2014-07-21T06:08:48Z kristof: joe-w-bimedina: If we're talking about a simple vector, then all you have to do is allocate SIZE * SIZEOFDATUM and get a pointer to that chunk of memory. It's hard to make that slow!
2014-07-21T06:09:02Z Bike: You might be surprised.
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2014-07-21T06:09:49Z kristof: Does SBCL optimize arrays for disjoint types as well as single types?
2014-07-21T06:09:53Z kristof: Talking about "or"s here
2014-07-21T06:10:01Z Bike: i don't know how sbcl does it beyond the vague idea it uses sbrk, but malloc is not trivial
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2014-07-21T06:11:10Z kristof: Bike: what was that in response to?
2014-07-21T06:11:18Z Bike: kristof: (map 'list #'sb-vm::saetp-specifier sb-vm::*specialized-array-element-type-properties*)
2014-07-21T06:11:28Z Bike: kristof: "all you have to do is allocate" etc
2014-07-21T06:11:58Z kristof: that looks positively alien to me
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2014-07-21T06:12:18Z Bike: my form there? it's sbcl internal shit to get you a list of all the upgraded array element types.
2014-07-21T06:12:23Z Bike: and, well, no disjunctions
2014-07-21T06:12:33Z Bike: other than well you get the idea.
2014-07-21T06:12:38Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks, Is there an library, that uses CFFI, I could look at for inspiration, where I can get good examples of someone who converts  their C data to Lisp data as soon as it was available, and in a very speedy way
2014-07-21T06:12:40Z kristof: Well, I specifically meant "saetp"
2014-07-21T06:12:42Z kristof: what does that even mean
2014-07-21T06:12:53Z Bike: "specialized array element type property(ies)"
2014-07-21T06:13:09Z kristof: Bike: Then they should have named that last special var saetp
2014-07-21T06:13:20Z kristof: thank god for tab completion
2014-07-21T06:13:21Z Bike: eh, with tab complete it's *s-a-e-t-p*
2014-07-21T06:13:35Z Bike: anyway you can see more info there, compiler types and packing info and such
2014-07-21T06:13:54Z Bike: you can see that other than two character types and nil arrays all the specialized arrays are numeric
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2014-07-21T06:15:13Z kristof: What does specialized array mean? I always thought it meant space efficiency.
2014-07-21T06:15:28Z Bike: clhs u-a-e-t
2014-07-21T06:15:28Z specbot: upgraded-array-element-type: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_upgr_1.htm
2014-07-21T06:15:46Z Bike: uh, click some links there i guess. but yeah basically space efficiency.
2014-07-21T06:16:30Z Bike: this is somewhat separate from being able to access an array without typechecks, which sbcl probably lets you do for like an array of symbols if you declare enough types, even though the actual data will be a T array
2014-07-21T06:17:23Z kristof: I trust SBCL is doing all it can
2014-07-21T06:17:37Z kristof: compiler optimization is about as cool to me as number theory
2014-07-21T06:17:50Z Bike: one could take that in multiple ways...
2014-07-21T06:18:01Z kristof: Number theory is not cool to me.
2014-07-21T06:18:14Z Bike: oh, well there we go then.
2014-07-21T06:18:16Z kristof: It's boring. And useless. Compiler optimizations are not useless but they are boring.
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2014-07-21T06:19:16Z kristof: Arrays are the one thing in Common Lisp whose complexity I'll never be able to justify
2014-07-21T06:19:49Z Bike: might wanna take a closer look at the pprinter then :p
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2014-07-21T06:20:08Z kristof: I just want a region of memory where each index has a size of sizeof(type)
2014-07-21T06:20:27Z kristof: And if I want a multiple dimensional array, I just want pointers to other arrays
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2014-07-21T06:20:47Z kristof: ...and I want bounds checking.
2014-07-21T06:21:08Z kristof: Bike: But the pretty printer is the world's most useful generic function!
2014-07-21T06:21:08Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: why do you want the source of make-array?
2014-07-21T06:21:32Z pjb: kristof: less complex you get C "arrays".
2014-07-21T06:22:23Z kristof: pjb: C arrays plus bounds checking is not bad! I can't think of a legitimate use case for heterogeneous arrays. If I have a lot of objects that could be anything, I probably want to throw it in a list instead.
2014-07-21T06:22:24Z pjb: kristof: and you can do C "arrays" in lisp: #(#(#(1 2) #(3 4))#(#(a b) #(c d))) vs. #3A(((1 2) (3 4))((a b) (c d)))
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2014-07-21T06:22:53Z pjb: but the later is must more efficient (space and speed) for almost all uses.
2014-07-21T06:23:10Z kristof: pjb: Oh, is it? I take everything back, then.
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2014-07-21T06:27:16Z zRecursive: (type-of #2A((3 3 3 3 3) (3 3 3 3 3) (3 3 3 3 3))) => (SIMPLE-ARRAY T (3 5))
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2014-07-21T06:33:45Z kristof: zRecursive: Why isn't that (SIMPLE-ARRAY FIXNUM (3 5))?
2014-07-21T06:33:59Z kristof: oh, because it's mutable, and could change
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2014-07-21T06:36:00Z joe-w-bimedina: pjb: didnt see that, I'm just trying to figure out better ways to speed up my code, and make-array is so fast
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2014-07-21T06:38:16Z kristof: joe-w-bimedina: at 3 Billion instructions per second on 4 cores, a single call to a function that allocates a few bytes of memory and returns a pointer better be fast
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2014-07-21T06:42:13Z ggole: Gotta initialize it though
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2014-07-21T06:52:33Z loke: If you have a compacting GC, memory allocations can be reduced to a single instruction
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2014-07-21T06:53:55Z joe-w-bimedina: How would one implement "compacting GC"
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2014-07-21T06:54:44Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_collection_(computer_science)
2014-07-21T06:55:13Z ggole: It's usually a bit more than one
2014-07-21T06:55:40Z joe-w-bimedina: loke: thanks for link
2014-07-21T06:55:58Z loke: A compacting GC moves the allocated objects so that you have one (or a few) large blocks of contigouos free memory from which memory is allocated.
2014-07-21T06:56:07Z ggole: Decrement alloc pointer by K, compare to end of nursery, jump to gc if lower
2014-07-21T06:56:12Z loke: Thus, a memory allocation is nothing more than moving a pointer
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2014-07-21T06:56:33Z ggole: Still stupid fast though.
2014-07-21T06:56:43Z loke: ggole: The part after decrementing can be handled by allocating by page and doing a GC on memory fault
2014-07-21T06:56:58Z loke: Hence, one instruction only
2014-07-21T06:57:14Z ggole: How do you recover the allocation size?
2014-07-21T06:57:45Z loke: ggole: From the object itself. Lisp generally uses tag bits for example
2014-07-21T06:57:54Z loke: (from the object _pointer_ itself0
2014-07-21T06:58:00Z joe-w-bimedina: does TG have functions to implement compacting GC
2014-07-21T06:58:08Z ggole: There's no object pointer, it hasn't been allocated yet
2014-07-21T06:58:46Z loke: ggole: after allocation you do. You take the current value of the free memory pointer, that will be your object pointer. Increase the free memory pointer by the size of the object
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2014-07-21T07:23:20Z loke: Compacting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark-compact_algorithm
2014-07-21T07:24:02Z heddwch: No
2014-07-21T07:24:02Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: it is SUCH a small library, can't you just friggin look at the code?
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2014-07-21T07:25:24Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry, It seemed a bit more complex than that
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2014-07-21T07:27:18Z heddwch: joe-w-bimedina: Don't worry, it's a cultural thing. I think it stems from the fact that lisp has a minimal syntax, so by rights you should indeed be able to read the code. It's just not first instinct, you would think there might be documentation somewhere, and you'd be wrong.
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2014-07-21T07:29:00Z joe-w-bimedina: ok, thanks that really affirms that for me
2014-07-21T07:29:06Z heddwch: :)
2014-07-21T07:29:11Z heddwch: Lisp is a good language
2014-07-21T07:29:39Z heddwch: The community could use some work, but such is life. You could use python instead, they've got a great community, but you'd regret it in the long run ;)
2014-07-21T07:29:53Z Shinmera: python and great community has got to be a joke
2014-07-21T07:29:56Z H4ns: heddwch: trivial-garbage is a very well documented library.  the problem is not the lack of documentation, it is that joe-w-bimedina cannot read it.
2014-07-21T07:31:38Z heddwch: H4ns: I'm not familiar with the library. Your response mentioned reading code, not reading documentation. My first instinct was to be on your side that the code is, indeed, readable, My opinion was that I was reinforcing your opinion in a softer way. If that's not the case, I recommend communicating it better. Not to try and be contrary, but honestly, read what you write.
2014-07-21T07:32:00Z heddwch: Shinmera: It does, as far as "I need x", and you get "use y"
2014-07-21T07:32:09Z heddwch: That's not perfect at all, but y exists over there.
2014-07-21T07:32:27Z heddwch: That's not the case in lisp, and I don't expect you to care about adoption, but if you do, it might matter.
2014-07-21T07:34:43Z Shinmera: heddwch: I don't see what the availability of libraries has to do with 'community'
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2014-07-21T07:36:08Z heddwch: Shinmera: What's the point of a community? There's helpful communities, but if you're lucky enough to have one, you're likely to have useful libraries. If you don't, then you ask a question and get "read the source, fucktard," and get to watch an argument develop because somebody mentioned that's not the normal way to deal with complexity.
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2014-07-21T07:36:54Z H4ns: heddwch: before jumping to conclusions about the community from one remark, you could imagine that joe-w-bimedina is not a random guy making his first contact with the lisp community.
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2014-07-21T07:37:39Z Shinmera: heddwch: the attitude of the people in a community is in no way related to how useful the libraries are.
2014-07-21T07:38:07Z H4ns: heddwch: i will admit that i could just ignore the person, but really, i like to participate in discussions where the participants show some form of insight and also contribute.
2014-07-21T07:38:36Z H4ns: heddwch: from that perspective, he (or she) has been expressing their ignorance and unwillingness to actually learn stuff for years now.
2014-07-21T07:39:06Z heddwch: joe-w-bimedina has been around for (at least) months (that I've witnessed) in this channel, though I do understand your point and agree
2014-07-21T07:39:09Z H4ns: heddwch: that is why i am fed up with his stupid questions.  they are stupid.  because the person is.  i'm sorry, but there is no way around that.
2014-07-21T07:39:14Z brucem: H4ns: about 18 months ago, we talked about issues with streams and non-blocking behavior
2014-07-21T07:39:21Z heddwch: The thing is, the lisp community has devolved into a community of experts.
2014-07-21T07:39:24Z brucem: H4ns: like streams and non-blocking sockets.
2014-07-21T07:39:58Z heddwch: This is a problem because we either 1) assume people are trolls and treat them as such or 2) think they should do all their own research. While I appreciate the value of self-learning, if that's mandated, why the hell are we here?
2014-07-21T07:40:20Z Shinmera: We're here to answer questions you can't answer with self-learning.
2014-07-21T07:40:24Z heddwch: Ah, sorry, sorry, wait
2014-07-21T07:40:34Z H4ns: heddwch: the "lisp community" does not need any diagnosis about its state.  it has never been a "good community" like the ones that one may refer to.  it is way older than every other programmer's community and it is unlikely to become a nice place ever.
2014-07-21T07:40:35Z heddwch: I'm sorry, I'm between keyboard layouts and can't type very quickly
2014-07-21T07:40:42Z brucem: H4ns: just wanted to say that I might have finally arrived at the sketch of a solution that I like ... and I'm framing it out and seeing how it looks. I'm writing about it and will probably have something more firm within a month or so.
2014-07-21T07:41:04Z heddwch: You addressed joe-w-bimedina individually. If that's true and you meant exactly him, then I understand.
2014-07-21T07:41:21Z heddwch: If you meant stupid questions in general, then that's the problem I'm trying to address
2014-07-21T07:41:23Z H4ns: brucem: nice :) - i think about the pity state of hunchentoot every once in a while and hope that something will emerge to replace it eventually :)
2014-07-21T07:41:52Z brucem: H4ns: well, I'm working in Dylan, not Common Lisp ... but I think the overall ideas will be applicable.
2014-07-21T07:42:20Z Shinmera: heddwch: From my year in here I've seen mostly very helpful answers to almost all questions as well as quite a lot of patience to walk people through things
2014-07-21T07:42:46Z H4ns: heddwch: there are no stupid questions in general, and the experience in this channel, for example, widely vary for people who ask their first "stupid question".  some manage to engage in discussions, show insight and come to like this channel, some go away, whining and bitching about the lisp community and how bad they have been treated.
2014-07-21T07:43:17Z H4ns: brucem: ok - i'll be interested anyways, keep me posted.
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2014-07-21T07:43:28Z heddwch: Shinmera: Maybe it's just the hours I keep. I mostly see basically what I saw just now no matter who it is, or an argument like we're having between two lispers while the poor confused person sits there hoping maybe this language will be useful. So, that's where muy opinion comes from, but I understand if there's an individual problem.
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2014-07-21T07:43:51Z phadthai: H4ns: I see the same in any technical channel, your description is pretty accurate
2014-07-21T07:43:52Z Shinmera: heddwch: However, I've also seen a fair share of people who don't show any incentive to research and try on their own.
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2014-07-21T07:44:34Z Shinmera: heddwch: And to be honest, I don't have much patience for those people.
2014-07-21T07:45:04Z H4ns: Shinmera: can you debug my define-foreign-type for me, please?
2014-07-21T07:45:05Z H4ns: :D
2014-07-21T07:45:12Z heddwch: H4ns: I very much agree with your first point, I, on the other hand, have come to dislike this channel as a generality. Not just this channel, but anything involving common lisp at all. Other than common lisp, which I greatly enjoy. The problem is, any question results in, "are you stupid? CLHS <x>". Well, great. Even if I tried, that doesn't mean I found it. A link to the CLHS section I need is helpful. The attitude not so much."
2014-07-21T07:45:23Z Shinmera: H4ns: I'd give it a shot if I had any idea about ffi
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2014-07-21T07:45:42Z H4ns: Shinmera: thank you very much, i appreciate it!
2014-07-21T07:45:45Z heddwch: Shinmera: I very much understand that. I hang out in #osdev, of all things. Sadly, the general attitude (again, not meaning you specifically) is far better there.
2014-07-21T07:46:14Z H4ns: heddwch: then, if you dislike the lisp community, why do you engage in a discussion about it here?
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2014-07-21T07:46:56Z Shinmera: H4ns: No problem, just give me about ten years, I'll get back to you eventually, promise
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2014-07-21T07:47:49Z Shinmera: *promises or not legally binding
2014-07-21T07:47:59Z H4ns: heddwch: you'll probably have to learn how to put up with attitudes of other people without agreeing to them.  electronic media are a very narrow channel for expression, and it is not right to extrapolate from that to the real person and judge them for being terse.
2014-07-21T07:48:01Z heddwch: H4ns: Because I think the language is wonderful, and the people aren't as bad as they think, and i'd just like for me to be able to help a newbie without retaliation. I know I started it tonight, but it's a product of observation over a rather large duration =p Sorry, I won't inject the negativity into my positivity in the future.
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2014-07-21T07:48:41Z heddwch: H4ns: No, I understand, and agree with you, I just feel like I'm going against everything the community values to help a newbie that asked a question that might've been a bit naïve
2014-07-21T07:49:09Z H4ns: heddwch: let's just all try to be kind first.  i'll try, too.
2014-07-21T07:49:11Z H4ns: :)
2014-07-21T07:49:26Z heddwch: Thanks! That's all I want :)
2014-07-21T07:49:54Z heddwch: PS! haha joe-w-bimedina: Sorry, you asked a question, and this XD My fault.
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2014-07-21T07:53:49Z moore33: Everyone was a noob.
2014-07-21T07:53:49Z minion: moore33, memo from |3b|: shader-vao cleans up window properly for me if i force the version check to fail in display-window and check for unbound slots in tick, what OS are you using?
2014-07-21T07:53:49Z minion: moore33, memo from |3b|: also, it shouldn't exit the display-window GF completely, since one of the :around methods calls (main-loop) which is required for the window to go away. (and calling cl-glut:main-loop by hand sometimes helps get rid of old windows if you still get them)
2014-07-21T07:54:16Z moore33: Well thank you, |3b|.
2014-07-21T07:54:24Z heddwch: +1 moore33 :)
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2014-07-21T07:54:51Z heddwch: Biggest thing is everybody is a noob. If you get on your high horse, that's the first step to obsoletion :)
2014-07-21T07:55:30Z Shinmera: Being clueless never was the issue here
2014-07-21T07:55:45Z heddwch: Shinmera: I understand what you just said, but not what you meant
2014-07-21T07:55:54Z moore33: heddwch: It's a complicated balance... requires good will on both parties.
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2014-07-21T07:56:09Z moore33: on the part of both parties.
2014-07-21T07:56:10Z heddwch: I agree with you again, moore33
2014-07-21T07:57:13Z Shinmera: heddwch: Afaik this discussion came up because of joe-w-bimedina and the issue with him is certainly not that he's 'just a noob'.
2014-07-21T07:57:28Z Shinmera: heddwch: From what I know the response to noobs has been generally fair here.
2014-07-21T07:58:00Z Shinmera: ‾\(ツ)/‾
2014-07-21T07:58:11Z heddwch: Shinmera: You're right, and from memory, I understand the former issue. Sorry, I just got a semi-random urge to stand up for the oppressed =p
2014-07-21T07:58:27Z Shinmera: oppression is way too strong of a word to use here
2014-07-21T07:58:35Z moore33: Shinmera: And there it's very frustrating because the use-case is pretty interesting and presents a lot of deep issues, but the implementation / implementor is off in the weeds.
2014-07-21T07:58:47Z heddwch: You're right, you're right. It's just what I could think of, not because it was appropriate.
2014-07-21T07:59:05Z Shinmera: moore33: I don't follow what you're talking about?
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2014-07-21T08:00:09Z moore33: Shimera: Wrapping OpenCV.
2014-07-21T08:00:22Z moore33: woops
2014-07-21T08:00:29Z Shinmera: I'm the wrong person for that
2014-07-21T08:00:52Z heddwch: heh
2014-07-21T08:01:06Z heddwch: Oh, but the intermediate is the biggest thing, really.
2014-07-21T08:01:27Z moore33: Shinmera:I talking about joe-w-bimedina's project. Believe me, I've seen the questions for months on the cffi and ccl mailing lists.
2014-07-21T08:01:28Z heddwch: People seem to try hard to be decent to noobs, but if they learn enough to express some knowledge, then be wrong, they tend to invoke holy wars ;)
2014-07-21T08:01:32Z moore33: IIRC
2014-07-21T08:01:47Z Shinmera: moore33: Ah I see.
2014-07-21T08:02:06Z heddwch: Yea, you're right, moore33. I kind of forgot about it, but it's still public discourse. Questions don't always make sense, but the responses are public and might help someone.
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2014-07-21T08:03:13Z moore33: heddwch: Sometimes the questions are so ill-posed that it's just not possible to form a useful answer.
2014-07-21T08:03:47Z H4ns: moore33: wait, i'll create a gist with incomplete source code for you to look at.
2014-07-21T08:03:52Z heddwch: moore33: That I understand, yea
2014-07-21T08:03:53Z Shinmera: Fear the gists!
2014-07-21T08:04:04Z heddwch: Thankfully they're not as bad as the..
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2014-07-21T08:04:05Z moore33: H4ns: thanks a bunch
2014-07-21T08:04:12Z heddwch: nvm, this channel doesn't like NSFW XD
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2014-07-21T08:04:46Z Shinmera: Switching over to a different topic, has anyone in here tried out opusmodus?
2014-07-21T08:05:05Z heddwch: No, but I'd be interested to know what that is/what you'd like to ask about.
2014-07-21T08:05:17Z Shinmera: http://www.opusmodus.com/
2014-07-21T08:05:27Z heddwch: Thanks :)
2014-07-21T08:05:37Z heddwch: Ooh
2014-07-21T08:05:45Z heddwch: /very/ interested
2014-07-21T08:05:47Z Shinmera: I can't try it myself since I don't own a mac, but I was wondering if anyone could say something about it
2014-07-21T08:05:53Z heddwch: Is that an MML dialect, or something NIH?
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2014-07-21T08:07:04Z heddwch: mm, if you haven't heard of it,
2014-07-21T08:07:11Z heddwch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_Macro_Language
2014-07-21T08:07:15Z moore33: Shinmera: I don't know if beach has seen it, but he's done something quite different with direct entry of notes on the score itself.
2014-07-21T08:08:09Z heddwch: Seems to have, other than OpenBSD/MirOS, mostly been offered in simplistic variants, but it's a decent system.
2014-07-21T08:08:25Z heddwch: moore33: Oh? Do you have any links?
2014-07-21T08:09:07Z moore33: heddwch:http://common-lisp.net/project/gsharp/
2014-07-21T08:09:23Z moore33: Currently in a state of rewrite, like all good beach projects :)
2014-07-21T08:09:25Z heddwch: moore33: Thank you very much :)
2014-07-21T08:09:55Z moore33: Not that I'm any help ;)
2014-07-21T08:10:08Z heddwch: Imo, all projects should be in a constant state of rewrite. If it's too big to be practical to rewrite, it's too big in general and should be modularized
2014-07-21T08:10:11Z heddwch: but that's just me
2014-07-21T08:10:36Z Shinmera: Rewriting for the sake of rewriting is dumb.
2014-07-21T08:10:51Z heddwch: ^ this is true, too
2014-07-21T08:11:32Z theos: a few good things can still come out of dumb things
2014-07-21T08:11:46Z moore33: It's a fine line between stupid and clever.
2014-07-21T08:12:02Z H4ns: #lisp, the philosophy channel
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2014-07-21T08:12:09Z heddwch: What I meant was refactoring, I guess, but I feel like calling it refactoring when it needs a significant restructure is tooting one's own horn. The code is there, yea, but what's left I could've done from documentation.
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2014-07-21T08:12:38Z heddwch: H4ns: I'd rather that than the usual #lisp, the vacant and silent channel, though that's an argument I've been in before, also.
2014-07-21T08:12:50Z theos: H4ns lisp and philosophy are closely tied together
2014-07-21T08:12:56Z H4ns: i did not mean to complain
2014-07-21T08:12:57Z heddwch: ^
2014-07-21T08:13:00Z moore33: Shut up and code ;)
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2014-07-21T08:13:14Z heddwch: Oh, okay :) Then good, sorry for the misinterpretation
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2014-07-21T09:17:02Z joe-w-bimedina: in a case statement is there any way to supply a constant as the keyform parameter and have it evaluate the number the constant represents instead of the symbol,  eg constant +8u+ = 0
2014-07-21T09:17:59Z loke: read-time evaluation
2014-07-21T09:18:00Z H4ns: #.+8u+ would work
2014-07-21T09:19:53Z joe-w-bimedina: cool!, thanks alot, I appreciate that
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2014-07-21T09:29:02Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: notice that means that the constant must be defined at read-time!
2014-07-21T09:29:50Z joe-w-bimedina: great, thanks, for the extra info:)
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2014-07-21T09:31:31Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: how do you ensure a constant is defined at read-time?
2014-07-21T09:32:21Z joe-w-bimedina: I use defanonenum, in my constants.lisp file, if thats what you meant
2014-07-21T09:32:40Z pjb: does defanonenum expand to an eval-when form?
2014-07-21T09:33:16Z pjb: Having constants defined in a separate file is good, since you would load that file before compiling the file containing the #. read-time expression.
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2014-07-21T09:34:17Z joe-w-bimedina: I don't know the term eval-when yet
2014-07-21T09:35:27Z pjb: clhs: eval-when
2014-07-21T09:35:45Z pjb: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw60/CLHS/Body/s_eval_w.htm
2014-07-21T09:35:52Z pjb: minion: are you there?
2014-07-21T09:35:52Z minion: no
2014-07-21T09:35:58Z pjb: specbot: are you there?
2014-07-21T09:36:07Z pjb: clhs eval-when
2014-07-21T09:36:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm
2014-07-21T09:36:11Z pjb: right.
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2014-07-21T09:37:29Z joe-w-bimedina: great, I'll check that out
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2014-07-21T10:09:10Z theos: there is http://lispdoc.com/ too
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2014-07-21T14:33:10Z chris_l: when an error occurs inside a with-open-file (:output) and I choose the abort in slime, the file disappears. What can I do about that?
2014-07-21T14:33:29Z chris_l: I thought the unwind-protect/close would save it
2014-07-21T14:34:00Z H4ns: (close stream :abort t) deletes the file
2014-07-21T14:34:24Z chris_l: I see
2014-07-21T14:35:11Z chris_l: so I have to write my own with-open-file to get around this?
2014-07-21T14:35:45Z H4ns: chris_l: no, you can install a handler around your body so that the error is never seen by the handler inside of with-open-file
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2014-07-21T14:36:23Z chris_l: ok, but I still want to decide manually in slime what to do ...
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2014-07-21T14:36:38Z H4ns: chris_l: restart-case or with-simple-restart
2014-07-21T14:36:45Z H4ns: (inside your with-open-file)
2014-07-21T14:36:52Z chris_l: good
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2014-07-21T18:22:02Z pjb: chris_l: or just don't choose the ABORT restart!
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2014-07-21T18:35:57Z jenia: hello
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2014-07-21T18:36:03Z jenia: i need to parse out a huge xml file
2014-07-21T18:36:09Z jenia: list is probably very useful for that
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2014-07-21T18:37:58Z oleo: lisp!
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2014-07-21T18:38:18Z oleo: check out the cliki for ready-made libs....
2014-07-21T18:38:25Z oleo: use xml as your search tag....
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2014-07-21T18:46:37Z pjb: jenia: I use xmls
2014-07-21T18:46:45Z pjb: Others use more sophisticated xml libraries.
2014-07-21T18:46:53Z jenia: thanks pjb
2014-07-21T18:47:16Z pjb: If it's really huge, perhaps you don't want to load the whole sexp in RAM. Then cxml would have to be used I guess.
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2014-07-21T18:59:29Z drewc: jenia: I use CXML-STP. I have never really been concerned about RAM use,  regardless, CXML has a tonne of ways and depending on 'huge', a load of trivial ways to boot.
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2014-07-21T19:08:30Z dlowe: I used xmls at one time, but it's really not good enough for real XML support. I converted the existing code to use cxml with the xmls builder
2014-07-21T19:09:21Z dlowe: One of the problems with XML is that it looks a lot simpler than it is.
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2014-07-21T19:13:22Z Shinmera: I use Plump, but it's intended for 'invalid markup', so if you need strictness or conformity or any of that it isn't the right tool.
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2014-07-21T19:18:32Z dlowe: The SAX stuff in cxml is pretty easy to use, but you do have to write your own parser stack to extract what you want, which can be more trouble than it's worth
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2014-07-21T19:19:23Z dlowe: The DOM builder is okay, but underdocumented.
2014-07-21T19:19:58Z dlowe: and inappropriate for extremely large xml documents
2014-07-21T19:22:02Z H4ns: there is klacks, too, if you hate sax
2014-07-21T19:22:18Z H4ns: it is an incremental pull parser built on top of cxml
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2014-07-21T19:39:24Z jasom: jenia: I've used the klacks stuff to parse through xml svn logs before and it's fairly straightforward
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2014-07-21T19:56:41Z dlowe: I looked at klacks and couldn't get my head around it. I should probably try again.
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2014-07-21T20:01:09Z jasom: dlowe: it basically just converts xml into a stream of tokens
2014-07-21T20:01:30Z jasom: and then you can peek and consume and query from the current position to walk the tree
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2014-07-21T20:05:19Z dlowe: Sure, I get that. Using that to get nicely from XML to my-datastructure-here was/is the issue. Maybe I'm expecting bigger improvements than are possible in that process, though
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2014-07-21T20:55:13Z kristof: Curious. I'm experimenting with inheritance in local actor systems and I suddenly realized that I don't know how to use the class system in this case.
2014-07-21T20:56:54Z kristof: Actor "classes" specify a behavior, so that leads me to believe that every actor class itself should be an instance of an "actor-class" superclass.
2014-07-21T20:57:35Z kristof: Actor classes themselves won't have varying behavior between each "instance" of an actor class so that supports this opinion.
2014-07-21T20:58:44Z jasom: kristof: you might not need to subclass, unless you want to define behavior that happens on all actor classes
2014-07-21T20:58:48Z kristof: But actor classes also have a hierarchical relationship to other actor classes, and can partially "inherit" the behavior of other actors.
2014-07-21T20:59:18Z kristof: jasom: Well, I'd like to define methods on an actor superclass.
2014-07-21T21:00:10Z kristof: jasom: I need to "get" the behavior of an actor class (which amounts to a lambda).
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2014-07-21T21:01:36Z jasom: Someone in here did a fairly fancy container library as an example of how to use interfaces for getting pluggable behavior
2014-07-21T21:02:33Z kristof: jasom: If you ever remember the name, please let me know.
2014-07-21T21:02:40Z kristof: Although that doesn't sound quite like what I want.
2014-07-21T21:03:09Z fortitude: jasom: are you thinking of the Lisp-Interface-Library that Fare did?
2014-07-21T21:03:17Z kristof: jasom: I'm working on a pattern-matching DSL that sort of amounts to something like :before and :after matches
2014-07-21T21:03:18Z jasom: fortitude: that's the one
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2014-07-21T21:04:32Z jasom: kristof: due to multiple dispatch, you can get a lot done without ever doing subclassing.  I sometimes start with that and then if I see I'm duplicating code I try to clean it up a bit
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2014-07-21T21:05:17Z kristof: jasom: I'm explicitly avoiding multiple dispatch because one of the types is always known at compile time
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2014-07-21T21:06:47Z kristof: jasom: And message processing happens in a very tight loop in an actor system. The less overhead I can avoid, the better.
2014-07-21T21:07:29Z jasom: that makes sense
2014-07-21T21:08:03Z kristof: jasom: And lastly, I don't think thinking of an actor as an object is a good idea. An object is a thing, for which a generic object can dispatch on.
2014-07-21T21:08:23Z jasom: well everything in lisp is an object
2014-07-21T21:08:24Z kristof: jasom: An actor is a concurrently running process that may or may not have state. When are you ever going to dispatch on a lambda?
2014-07-21T21:08:54Z jasom: kristof: you could use green threads and queues for message passing
2014-07-21T21:09:06Z kristof: jasom: This builds on those two things.
2014-07-21T21:09:41Z jasom: kristof: the last actor system I worked on did it that way.
2014-07-21T21:10:05Z jasom: It was in C though; each actor was essentially an infinite loop with a switch statment for dispatch
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2014-07-21T21:10:50Z kristof: jasom: At the moment I was kind of excited to use SBCL's optimistic lock-free mailboxes
2014-07-21T21:11:07Z jasom: kristof: that requires an OS thread for each actor though, right?
2014-07-21T21:11:12Z jasom: might be a bit heavy.
2014-07-21T21:11:18Z kristof: jasom: What does?
2014-07-21T21:11:24Z jasom: the lock-free mailboxes?
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2014-07-21T21:11:30Z AeroNotix: yeah, sounds interesting
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2014-07-21T21:11:51Z kristof: jasom: No. Not if each actor is a green thread multiplexed onto a single system thread.
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2014-07-21T21:12:51Z jasom: kristof: actually if they are lock-free and you have a single system thread, then you don't need any fancy algorithms
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2014-07-21T21:13:01Z jasom: since you are now cooperatively multitasking
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2014-07-21T21:13:07Z kristof: What do you mean?
2014-07-21T21:13:11Z kristof: I suspect we agree and don't know itl.
2014-07-21T21:13:44Z jasom: which green-thread library are you using?
2014-07-21T21:14:11Z kristof: I haven't decided yet. The reality is that none are sufficient.
2014-07-21T21:14:22Z kristof: jasom: Do you want to hear about my silly pipe dream?
2014-07-21T21:15:36Z kristof: jasom: There isn't a cooperative green-threads library that 1) allows for tasks to block and thus be scheduled out and 2) does work-stealing.
2014-07-21T21:15:48Z AeroNotix: does it compare to Erlang well?
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2014-07-21T21:16:23Z kristof: AeroNotix: Does what compare to Erlang well?
2014-07-21T21:16:36Z AeroNotix: This green threads implementation
2014-07-21T21:16:44Z nyef: Hello all.
2014-07-21T21:17:07Z kristof: jasom: I will probably use the green-threads library built on cl-cont and cl-async-futures.
2014-07-21T21:17:15Z nyef: dseagrav: You pinged?
2014-07-21T21:17:23Z dkcl: kristof: Please pass the pipe so that it may eventually get done
2014-07-21T21:17:29Z kristof: AeroNotix: The one I just mentioned ^ does not compare well, no.
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2014-07-21T21:17:41Z AeroNotix: dang
2014-07-21T21:17:57Z kristof: dkcl: Pardon?
2014-07-21T21:18:24Z dkcl: kristof: Please share your pipe dream so that eventually someone will be bothered enough to write it
2014-07-21T21:18:48Z kristof: dkcl: I'll write up a CDR document sometime because I think it's important enough.
2014-07-21T21:19:26Z dkcl: Yay
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2014-07-21T21:20:39Z AeroNotix: Sometimes I really wish the lisp standard define threads
2014-07-21T21:20:43Z jasom: kristof: yes, having a non-fixed mapping from green-threads to OS threads would be nice, but something like that probably requires support from the implementation.
2014-07-21T21:20:49Z AeroNotix: or some concurrency model
2014-07-21T21:20:54Z kristof: jasom: Negatory.
2014-07-21T21:21:39Z kristof: jasom: Weinreb (wasn't it weinreb?) specified Bordeaux Threads. That's standard enough for me.
2014-07-21T21:21:39Z jasom: kristof: anyway that one built on cl-cont is non-preemptive, so if you make no blocking calls you can't be interrupted which makes it possible to write trivial lock-free code.
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2014-07-21T21:22:08Z jasom: kristof: BT is a decent enough standard, the implementation is fairly crap though.
2014-07-21T21:22:09Z kristof: oh! It was Dan Barlow, silly me.
2014-07-21T21:22:39Z jasom: I particularly dislike how any non-supported operation immediately returns success
2014-07-21T21:23:03Z kristof: *shrug*. It works for people. There isn't much you want from a machine threads library. Make threads, kill threads, that's it.
2014-07-21T21:23:07Z jasom: a run-time error would be better, and a compile-time error even better
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2014-07-21T21:23:44Z jasom: kristof: how about the ability to acquire a recursive lock and release it in a different place lexically on sbcl?
2014-07-21T21:24:02Z jasom: and killing threads is probably the only thing I don't want in a thread library
2014-07-21T21:24:09Z kristof: I don't want to touch locks.
2014-07-21T21:24:28Z jasom: kristof: you either need locks, or well defined behaviors for memory operations
2014-07-21T21:24:28Z kristof: I just don't. They're not composable, so why would I try to figure out lexical semantics for them?
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2014-07-21T21:25:37Z jasom: kristof: seeing how BT doesn't define behaviors for memory operations, it's clearly not good enough for you if you aren't going to use locks
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2014-07-21T21:26:49Z kristof: jasom: I meant I don't want to make and touch locks explicitly.
2014-07-21T21:27:18Z kristof: jasom: Channels and non-recursive locks are good enough for me. I can't think of places where I want to interact with nested locks.
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2014-07-21T21:28:24Z kristof: jasom: Anyway, you said you need implementation support for M:N threading. I think not! Having bare multithreading support is good enough, and here's why.
2014-07-21T21:28:28Z jasom: kristof: something like lparallel might be a better level to work at than BT
2014-07-21T21:28:41Z kristof: jasom: Oh! You jumped the gun and saw into the future I wished to propose. I'll get to that in a bit.
2014-07-21T21:29:29Z nyef: ... memory barrier semantics?
2014-07-21T21:29:35Z kristof: jasom: A machine thread has an associated scheduler. That scheduler has a queue of green threads to run.
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2014-07-21T21:29:55Z jasom: kristof: dynamic bindings
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2014-07-21T21:30:01Z kristof: jasom: work just fine
2014-07-21T21:30:25Z jasom: I don't see how, as they are machine-thread-local on most implementations
2014-07-21T21:31:15Z nyef: kristof: Are you re-inventing LispM-style process scheduling?
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2014-07-21T21:33:36Z kristof: jasom: Are they really? :(
2014-07-21T21:33:51Z jasom: and don't forget that the green-thread library isn't super well tested, and is built on top of cl-cont which may need updating anytime an implementations built-in macros change
2014-07-21T21:34:16Z jasom: some sort of bounded-continuations supported at the implementation level would make that a lot easier.
2014-07-21T21:34:34Z kristof: jasom: How are environments implemented in, say, SBCL?
2014-07-21T21:34:41Z kristof: jasom: Oh, I'm no shift-reset ninja.
2014-07-21T21:34:46Z jasom: kristof: I honestly don't know
2014-07-21T21:35:17Z nyef: "environments" in what sense?
2014-07-21T21:35:27Z jasom: kristof: cl-cont implements bounded continuations; it just uses call/cc language instead of shift/reset
2014-07-21T21:35:45Z kristof: jasom: Since we're talking about it, what I'd really prefer is Lparallel's kernel to support cooperative threading and yielding.
2014-07-21T21:36:21Z jasom: kristof: someone has already written one alternative kernel, go ahead and write that :)
2014-07-21T21:36:34Z kristof: jasom: Links!
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2014-07-21T21:37:16Z enfors: This has probably been discussed here before, but has anyone read "Build your own Lisp" (buildyourownlisp.com)? It's about writing a minimalistic Lisp in C, in less than 1000 lines of code. Any comments?
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2014-07-21T21:37:40Z kristof: jasom: The implementation I was thinking of was simply enclosing the function that runs tasks in a scheduler block, and whenever you hit a blocking operating like a channel put, you return-from the scheduler block with RETURN-REASON
2014-07-21T21:38:38Z kristof: jasom: So if you put on a channel, your RETURN-REASON is WAITING-FOR-RECEIVER. And the next time the scheduler loops around to your spot in the queue, it'll check for the associated RESUME-CONDITION (as in, someone's taking from a channel) and resume if it can, or else push it back to the tail of the run queue if it can't
2014-07-21T21:39:13Z Bicyclidine: enfors: this channel's about common lisp, which has a lotta stuff in it. and as far as "small" lisps go i like Maru
2014-07-21T21:39:21Z kristof: jasom: The procs in the run queue are actually structs that hold lots of information like that :). That's how Go does it.
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2014-07-21T21:40:53Z enfors: Bicyclidine: Oh, I didn't know this channel was only about Common Lisp. I haven't heard of this Maru, but I'll look into it, thanks. The thing about buildyourownlisp.com that interested me is that it's a practical lession in compiler construction (sort of).
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2014-07-21T21:46:49Z sykopomp: enfors: I liked Lisp in Small Pieces better. I think it discusses the issues of design of lisp-like languages (and general proglang design concepts) and their implementation better than byol.com
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2014-07-21T21:48:47Z sykopomp: lispy kinda reeks of someone who's never really written any lisp code but read a hello world in scheme once :)
2014-07-21T21:48:50Z kristof: sykopomp: In your ChanL library, what did you mean by "hopefully we can remove bordeaux-threads as a dependency in the future"?
2014-07-21T21:48:59Z kristof: I use quotes, but it was something to that effect
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2014-07-21T21:49:32Z enfors: Lisp in small pieces, you say? Hmm, looking into it, thanks...
2014-07-21T21:50:08Z sykopomp: kristof: ChanL was written in the dark pre-quicklisp days. At the time, getting rid of dependencies seemed like a worthwhile thing to do, because it was kinda complicated to install them across the various kinds of dependency environments different people used.
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2014-07-21T21:50:48Z sykopomp: So you can probably ignore that now. Fetching deps is trivial enough that eliminating them isn't really worth the effort.
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2014-07-21T21:53:20Z sykopomp: enfors: if you want more stuff about the design of languages in general (using a lisp-like language as a learning platform) you can also check out Design Concepts in Programming Languages, which covers a fair amount of ground.
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2014-07-21T21:53:40Z sykopomp: but that's more about language features and design than implementation :)
2014-07-21T21:53:43Z enfors: sykopomp: Noted, thanks.
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2014-07-21T21:58:47Z kristof: sykopomp: That makes sense in that context, thank you.
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2014-07-21T21:59:52Z kristof: sykopomp: I know you don't touch ChanL nowadays, but if LParallel ever came packaged with a kernel that did 1) cooperative multithreading and 2) work-stealing, would you consider removing the simple thread-pool implementation you have right now and use that instead?
2014-07-21T22:00:31Z kristof: Oh, and add to that 3) a multiplexed I/O thread kind of like Go's netpoller
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2014-07-21T22:12:42Z kristof: jasom: Solution. Each running proc has an alist of 'dynamic' bindings in its closure.
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2014-07-21T22:14:39Z kristof: jasom: To change a dynamic binding, you'd use a letdym form or something. Or you could shadow let so that it works that way. Updating dynamic variables amounts to manually setfing new and setfing previous at the end of a body.
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2014-07-21T22:15:25Z kristof: When you spawn a new proc/task, the "special" bindings simply get copied.
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2014-07-21T22:16:12Z kristof: So it doesn't matter what thread a proc is running on because its reliable dynamic environment is stored in the heap, not the stack.
2014-07-21T22:16:47Z kristof: which is slower but how often do you bind specials, anyway?
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2014-07-21T22:17:35Z Bicyclidine: there are a lot of special bindings in CL, it might be noticeably slow to spawn threads if you copy them every time
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2014-07-21T22:18:13Z kristof: Bicyclidine: I meant special bindings that you specifically want to persist between green threads.
2014-07-21T22:18:16Z kristof: er
2014-07-21T22:18:30Z kristof: Bicyclidine: Well I guess what I'm saying is that a green thread can establish special bindings without worrying about what thread its on
2014-07-21T22:18:46Z kristof: *it's.
2014-07-21T22:18:57Z Bicyclidine: i'm only half paying attention, i'm just thinking all that *print-crap* might be important enough to slow things down
2014-07-21T22:19:48Z kristof: Bicyclidine: What?
2014-07-21T22:20:07Z jasom: kristof: d.g. (let ((*print-readably* t)) (print something))
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2014-07-21T22:24:33Z kristof: jasom: With what I'm saying, you'd write (letdym ((getdym(*print-readably*)) T) (print something)
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2014-07-21T22:25:22Z Bicyclidine: right, but so does that mean every green thread has a copy of *print-readably* and all the other variables at all times?
2014-07-21T22:25:43Z kristof: Bicyclidine: Only the ones that you want to modify
2014-07-21T22:25:57Z kristof: If you're not modifying it, then everyone can use the thread-local copy
2014-07-21T22:27:01Z Bicyclidine: ok, right. so if we have two green threads in the same machine thread and one of them binds *print-readably*, that one gets its own copy in the green tls, and whenever that one enters or exits control the actual CL dynamic variable is bound? while in the other thread it just uses the CL binding?
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2014-07-21T22:27:30Z kristof: Bicyclidine: I don't know what tls stands for but that's the idea.
2014-07-21T22:27:49Z jasom: kristof: tls is "thread local storage"
2014-07-21T22:27:55Z enfors: Emacs question: If Emacs sets part of my code to the font-lock-warning-face (making the text red, in my case), how do I check what the actual warning is? I don't understand what it is about that piece of code that upsets Emacs.
2014-07-21T22:28:02Z kristof: jasom: Bicyclidine Ah, then yes.
2014-07-21T22:28:08Z Bicyclidine: alright, makes sense to me then.
2014-07-21T22:28:18Z kristof: enfors: Click on it?
2014-07-21T22:28:28Z jasom: again, how to implement when environments are not first-class in lisp
2014-07-21T22:28:31Z Bicyclidine: enfors: is this lisp code? i think that might just be a comment.
2014-07-21T22:28:35Z enfors: kristof: I'm in text mode.
2014-07-21T22:28:39Z kristof: jasom: An alist, really.
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2014-07-21T22:29:04Z kristof: enfors: There should be a messages log buffer
2014-07-21T22:29:09Z Bicyclidine: jasom: progv and symbol-value would be enough for this, i think
2014-07-21T22:29:11Z jasom: kristof: oh, you'll just set a symbol-value on context-switch?
2014-07-21T22:29:14Z kristof: enfors: Ah, try *Messages*
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2014-07-21T22:29:15Z jasom: that make sense
2014-07-21T22:29:19Z Bicyclidine: that's what i'm getting out of this at least
2014-07-21T22:29:28Z enfors: Bicyclidine: Yes, it's lisp code. No, it's not a comment. It's one of my functions, called check-touchdown. Whenever I write it in my code, Emacs displays it in font-lock-warning-face.
2014-07-21T22:29:35Z enfors: kristof: Ah, thanks.
2014-07-21T22:29:44Z kristof: jasom: Yeah. so letdym is really just a macro that wraps some dynamic code in (setf var NEW) (body) (setf var PREV)
2014-07-21T22:30:01Z kristof: enfors: Which has the semantics we want and honestly, it doesn't get more efficient than that because we need heap storage
2014-07-21T22:30:05Z Bicyclidine: enfors: oh, that's because slime (you're using slime, yeah?) treats functions named check- like an assert and such
2014-07-21T22:30:15Z Bicyclidine: enfors: it's just aesthetic
2014-07-21T22:30:19Z kristof: I know someone else has thought of this before, I can't be the first one.
2014-07-21T22:30:21Z Bicyclidine: kristof: don't forget to unwind-protect
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2014-07-21T22:31:08Z enfors: Bicyclidine: Oh, I was starting to suspect I was using some sort of "reserved" word. Thanks for clearing that up.
2014-07-21T22:31:23Z kristof: Bicyclidine: I immediately thought of unwind-protect, and for some reason I thought "nah, that doesn't matter"
2014-07-21T22:31:33Z Bicyclidine: no, slime doesn't check that, it wouldn't really be possible anyway cos of shadowing
2014-07-21T22:31:43Z kristof: But yes, that's important. Bicyclidine: so the unwind-protect form rebinds the previous value no matter what.
2014-07-21T22:32:00Z Bicyclidine: enfors: i think as far as emacs goes the thing to get out of this is that the name a face in emacs doesn't mean it's necessarily an actual warning.
2014-07-21T22:32:10Z Bicyclidine: name of a face*
2014-07-21T22:32:12Z kristof: What *I'd* be interested in looking at is how LParallel handles handlers and restarts, because those are dynamic too
2014-07-21T22:32:22Z enfors: Bicyclidine: Duly noted, thanks.
2014-07-21T22:32:23Z jasom: dynamic bindings can be 100% emulated with a global variable and unwind-protect
2014-07-21T22:32:36Z jasom: but then you need to keep track of which bindings are thread-local and restore them at context switch
2014-07-21T22:32:38Z Bicyclidine: hm, you know, i wonder how this works with system dynamic variables
2014-07-21T22:32:41Z kristof: I know it separates the concepts of regular CL handlers and handlers that were established by one task but are executed by another
2014-07-21T22:32:44Z jasom: which is expensive compared to using thread-local bindings
2014-07-21T22:32:45Z Bicyclidine: like sbcl's *handler-clusters*, especially...
2014-07-21T22:33:03Z arrdem quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2014-07-21T22:33:05Z Bicyclidine: or whatever it's called. it uses dynamic variables for the condition system, is the point
2014-07-21T22:33:30Z kristof: Bicyclidine: See what I just wrote
2014-07-21T22:33:31Z jasom: kristof: In sbcl at least, only a binding makes it thread-local, not assignment
2014-07-21T22:34:01Z kristof: jasom: But the point is that you can't use thread local because the thread of execution is not guaranteed to be consistent.
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2014-07-21T22:34:19Z kristof: jasom: Wait, what do you mean by restoring thread local bindings?
2014-07-21T22:34:29Z tesuji quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2014-07-21T22:35:01Z jasom: (let ((*foo* bar)) ... <context switch happens here> ) <-- you need to restore the outer value of foo, and then restore the inner when you switch back
2014-07-21T22:35:04Z kristof: jasom: You shouldn't worry about that. If you were setting dynamic variables with a simple let in the context of green-threaded code then it's your fault if a thread reads a value it isn't supposed to.
2014-07-21T22:35:19Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2014-07-21T22:35:26Z jasom: kristof: I thought we would change let to do the right thing
2014-07-21T22:35:31Z jasom: the way that cl-cont does
2014-07-21T22:36:12Z jasom: anyway, all of this is 1000x easier to do if you implement green threads in the implementation rather than on top of it
2014-07-21T22:36:20Z kristof: jasom: By do the right thing, I just mean make let set dynamic vars in that copied alist
2014-07-21T22:36:45Z jasom: kristof: but you need to restore the symbol-value on context-switch in from the alist, right?
2014-07-21T22:37:42Z kristof: jasom: Elaborate
2014-07-21T22:37:42Z stokachu quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2014-07-21T22:37:44Z kristof: I don't follow
2014-07-21T22:38:01Z jasom: okay you have some way of establishing a green-thread-local dynamic binding, right?
2014-07-21T22:38:12Z slassh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2014-07-21T22:38:16Z kristof: jasom: Also, what you're saying simply doesn't exist. There is no such thing as a programming language with a runtime that supports both lightweight processes and dynamic binding. Neither rust nor go do it.
2014-07-21T22:38:19Z jasom: you need to make sure that affects symbol-value for that symbol only when that green-thread is running
2014-07-21T22:38:31Z jasom: kristof: it's trivial to do
2014-07-21T22:39:01Z jasom: kristof: it's no harder doing it for lightweight threads than doing it for OS threads, and sbcl already does it for OS threads...
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2014-07-21T22:39:43Z kristof: jasom: Where is thread local storage stored?
2014-07-21T22:40:03Z kristof: I could just google that, actually, I'm sorry
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2014-07-21T22:40:40Z jasom: depending on how sbcl does dynamic environments, it could be as simple as copying the dynamic environment when a new thread is created
2014-07-21T22:40:42Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2014-07-21T22:41:27Z dseagrav: nyef: HI
2014-07-21T22:42:10Z foom: the basically-only-point of green threads is to reduce the memory overhead per blocked thread, so you'll wanna be careful if you're going to copy a bunch of stuff to each green-thread too...
2014-07-21T22:43:09Z dseagrav: nyef: You are a pain in the neck to get ahold of
2014-07-21T22:43:20Z jasom: foom: resource overhead, not just memory overhead
2014-07-21T22:43:59Z kristof: jasom: The alist of dynamic bindings closes over whatever the running green thread is, so you don't need to "restore" anything on context switches. Anytime a value is accessed, it finds it in the right place
2014-07-21T22:44:34Z phadthai: and to reduce latency
2014-07-21T22:44:58Z jasom: kristof: explain how "it finds it in the right place"
2014-07-21T22:45:13Z jasom: kristof: given that you will be calling functions that are unaware that this alist even exists
2014-07-21T22:46:34Z kristof: jasom: run-task(task) => (let ((THREAD-SAFE-DYNAMIC-VARS NIL)) (your-func))
2014-07-21T22:46:58Z kristof: jasom: We get rid of the problem of threaded dynamic variables by turning it into lexical scope
2014-07-21T22:47:40Z kristof: jasom: So getdynamicvar(symbol-name) just getf's something from THREAD-SAFE-DYNAMIC-VARS, which will always mean "the right thing"(tm)
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2014-07-21T22:48:11Z kristof: jasom: If I'm missing something, please tell me
2014-07-21T22:50:20Z Vivitron quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2014-07-21T22:50:22Z kristof: jasom: By the way, if we're spawning processes from other processes, then the previous binding should be (let ((THREAD-SAFE-DYANMIC-VARS  (copy-list THRE...))) ...)
2014-07-21T22:50:38Z jasom: 15:44 < kristof> jasom: We get rid of the problem of threaded dynamic variables by turning it into lexical scope <--- no idea what you're saying there
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2014-07-21T22:52:18Z kristof: maybe the code I just wrote doesn't work the way I think it does
2014-07-21T22:52:47Z jasom: kristof: I still don't see how you could have something like binding printer variables followed by a call to write work correctly without doing a machine-thread-local dynamic-binding of all green-thread-local bindings when you context switch in
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2014-07-21T22:53:09Z nyef: dseagrav: And all you had to do was send an email asking me to show up on IRC... Though it might have been more effective if it hadn't gotten caught in the gmail spam filter.
2014-07-21T22:53:30Z dseagrav: nyef: The last email adddress I had for you went to lisphacker, which doesn't work anymore
2014-07-21T22:53:52Z kristof: jasom: ...all functions built on current special variables wouldn't work
2014-07-21T22:53:53Z kristof: :'(
2014-07-21T22:53:58Z drewc1 joined #lisp
2014-07-21T22:54:22Z dseagrav: nyef: I got the gmail address by finding it (obfuscated) on some mailing list web archive, and guessed that "gm..." was gmail
2014-07-21T22:54:33Z scharan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-07-21T22:54:50Z dseagrav: nyef: Anyway anyway! Did minion give you the picture?
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2014-07-21T22:56:11Z kristof: jasom: I see what you were saying earlier, now. So every task should have a slot containing a pointer to its dynamic variables. The scheduler sets the current value of DYNAMIC-VARS to the correct alist associated with that process.
2014-07-21T22:57:00Z drewc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2014-07-21T22:57:21Z nyef: dseagrav: Actually, minion doesn't appear to have any memos for me.
2014-07-21T22:57:31Z nyef: dseagrav: So, what's up?
2014-07-21T22:57:36Z dseagrav: That's odd, do they expire after a few days? Anyway
2014-07-21T22:57:47Z dseagrav: I took a hardware failure since we talked last, I no longer have kidneys
2014-07-21T22:57:57Z nyef: That... sucks.
2014-07-21T22:58:09Z dseagrav: That means I got put on disability, and I needed something to occupy me so I didn't climb the walls
2014-07-21T22:58:12Z drewc1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2014-07-21T22:58:35Z dseagrav: So I thought "Since my Meroko issues are timing related, why not port it to something realtime?"
2014-07-21T22:58:40Z dseagrav: So I ported to bare metal
2014-07-21T22:59:00Z nyef: I'm suddenly reminded of the demise of the E3 project.
2014-07-21T22:59:15Z dseagrav: Turns out the APIC interval timer will give you interrupts at a steady 1 MHz rate, which exactly matches the interval timer
2014-07-21T22:59:39Z McMAGIC--Copy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2014-07-21T22:59:43Z dseagrav: Instead of aiming at 7 MIPS and varying by a few million IPS each time, I now vary by 200-300 K
2014-07-21T22:59:53Z dseagrav: most of which is lost cycles from waiting on memory
2014-07-21T23:00:07Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2014-07-21T23:00:08Z dseagrav: I actually had to simulate the lost cycle from using the inhibit bit to make things match up
2014-07-21T23:00:08Z nyef: Wait, you were dealing with a periodic hardware interrupt in anything OTHER than emulated time?
2014-07-21T23:00:21Z nand1 joined #lisp
2014-07-21T23:00:32Z dseagrav: I'm still missing 500 IPS somewhere, if I run at 7 the interval timer tests fail saying time moves too slow.
2014-07-21T23:00:41Z didi quit (Quit: you can't /fire me, I /quit)
2014-07-21T23:00:59Z dseagrav: Yeah, I had the "fast" timers run in emulated time and the one-second-and-slower timers in real time
2014-07-21T23:01:08Z dseagrav: otherwise the wholine time drifts and it looked bad
2014-07-21T23:01:12Z dseagrav: Anyway
2014-07-21T23:01:15Z fortitude quit (Quit: leaving)
2014-07-21T23:01:22Z dseagrav: Turns out that wasn't my issue but it's the start
2014-07-21T23:01:36Z nyef: Hrm. Was the time drifting faster or slower?
2014-07-21T23:01:53Z nyef: Because if the emulated time was faster, the obvious thing to do was use it as a synchronization point.
2014-07-21T23:02:01Z dseagrav: First, the NUPI can overlap commands to different devices, provided they aren't data transfter. Those wait for the buffer.
2014-07-21T23:02:04Z nyef: Similar to frameskip in emulators.
2014-07-21T23:02:04Z dseagrav: Lisp uses this
2014-07-21T23:02:09Z dseagrav: So I had to implement that
2014-07-21T23:02:10Z nyef: (well, video game emulators.)
2014-07-21T23:02:20Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2014-07-21T23:02:27Z dseagrav: Then I got the ethernet to work
2014-07-21T23:02:34Z dseagrav: Both the TI and Intel docs for that are awful
2014-07-21T23:02:49Z dseagrav: So now I have a meroko that can run for about an hour before lisp dies of memory corruption
2014-07-21T23:02:49Z nyef: Heh. I bet the docs WERE awful.
2014-07-21T23:03:13Z dseagrav: But you can't save things on the filesystem, that gets corrupted too
2014-07-21T23:03:19Z kristof: jasom: I've almost described exactly how ChanL is written
2014-07-21T23:03:25Z kristof: jasom: https://github.com/sykopomp/chanl/blob/master/src/threads.lisp
2014-07-21T23:03:27Z dseagrav: which made loading the crash table for the new microcode a chore
2014-07-21T23:03:31Z nyef: Umm... Are you running the NuPI by simulating the behavior of its onboard controller, or are you actually simulating the onboard 68k processor?
2014-07-21T23:03:42Z kristof: jasom: See the function "pcall". It unzips an alist of bindings and sets them on every context switch.
2014-07-21T23:03:47Z dseagrav: I'm not simulating the 68k, that would take too much time
2014-07-21T23:03:51Z dseagrav: Maybe later
2014-07-21T23:04:01Z dseagrav: So the latest development
2014-07-21T23:04:23Z dseagrav: I started going after the memory corruption, there's still all those EXPT vs. Lisp "special cases"
2014-07-21T23:04:34Z dseagrav: I wanted to eliminate those, so I started talking to the ex-TI people
2014-07-21T23:04:39Z nyef: "all those"? I only had one...
2014-07-21T23:04:44Z nyef: Ooh.
2014-07-21T23:04:54Z kristof: jasom: You can't set them midfunction and except them to work but they're good for initial bindings. Problem solved! :P
2014-07-21T23:05:18Z kristof: jasom: With that in mind I decided to use ChanL as my prototyping platform.
2014-07-21T23:05:18Z nyef: IIRC, one of the "ex-TI people" actually took nevermore and started writing his own CPU simulator within the same framework. (-:
2014-07-21T23:05:27Z dseagrav: I got a new Raven manuals, and some manuals for Albatross
2014-07-21T23:06:00Z nyef: Okay, I know Raven, and I have at least some information on Hummingbird, but what's Albatross?
2014-07-21T23:06:10Z dseagrav: Raven's Prototype
2014-07-21T23:06:13Z nyef: Ahh.
2014-07-21T23:06:26Z nyef: And have you managed to get a copy of the on-chip ROM for Hummingbird?
2014-07-21T23:06:39Z dseagrav: nyef: PM sent
2014-07-21T23:06:41Z jasom: kristof: which I think I suggested about an hour ago
2014-07-21T23:06:46Z dseagrav: nyef: And no, unfortunately not
2014-07-21T23:06:49Z nyef: dseagrav: Downloading now, thank you.
2014-07-21T23:06:51Z dseagrav: Otherwise I'd have gone after that
2014-07-21T23:06:51Z jasom: or maybe it was lparallel
2014-07-21T23:06:59Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_)
2014-07-21T23:07:08Z killerboy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2014-07-21T23:07:17Z kristof: jasom: You suggested lparallel
2014-07-21T23:07:41Z dseagrav: nyef: Did you see the dump of OS source on archive.org?
2014-07-21T23:08:13Z nyef: No, does it include the microcode sources and microcode assembler itself?
2014-07-21T23:08:41Z nyef: Otherwise it might be pretty much the same as the version that I already have.
2014-07-21T23:09:09Z dseagrav: Nope. It has binaries and crash table for microcode 660, which I loaded and they do run the world in our disk images, but no non-binary microcode stuff.
2014-07-21T23:09:48Z dseagrav: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12368207/IMG_5583.jpg <-- Here's the kind of memory corruption lisp runs into, before I got the new docs and started playing around
2014-07-21T23:10:06Z nyef: Hrm. I don't believe that I have access to my archives for this stuff right now, or will for about a week.
2014-07-21T23:10:35Z nyef: But only having a binary microcode and possibly a crash table sounds familiar.
2014-07-21T23:11:06Z dseagrav: Anyway, the raven hardware spec already gave me a few answers for old questions
2014-07-21T23:11:14Z dseagrav: Among other things, condition 17 is solved
2014-07-21T23:11:29Z dseagrav: (It reads a fixed address in the T memory)
2014-07-21T23:11:46Z dseagrav: (It's essentially condition 37 with the high bit missing)
2014-07-21T23:12:17Z ch077179 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2014-07-21T23:12:27Z dseagrav: ABJ on JUMP always fires, but the PC comes from the instruction if the condition passes
2014-07-21T23:12:41Z dseagrav: (So a JUMP with ABJ that passes cond will still pop the ustack)
2014-07-21T23:13:15Z McMAGIC--Copy joined #lisp
2014-07-21T23:13:16Z dseagrav: ABJ on dispatch instructions only fires if it's a fall through operation
2014-07-21T23:13:27Z nyef: Hang on, trying to find the corresponding logic in nevermore, while trying to remember my way around the architecture, while having sunk half a bottle of wine.
2014-07-21T23:13:53Z dseagrav: (I think, the conditions for dispatch are scattered all over the document, and some get real hairy)
2014-07-21T23:14:19Z dseagrav: It acknowledges the existence of popj-14 but doesn't describe it much, at least not in one place
2014-07-21T23:14:41Z nyef: Lovely.
2014-07-21T23:15:30Z dseagrav: I haven't found anything describing modifying the micro PC when it does it, but that might be in the PALs or logic diagrams
2014-07-21T23:16:08Z dseagrav: I was looking for something to explain the or by 2 or by 3 lisp vs. expt special case
2014-07-21T23:16:34Z nyef: That'd be the one special case that I was aware of, yes.
2014-07-21T23:17:14Z dseagrav: BTW hardware spec does not mention the local-reset MCR bit. It's labelled unused in descriptions of the MCR.
2014-07-21T23:17:18Z dseagrav: It must have come later.
2014-07-21T23:17:29Z nyef: Hrm.
2014-07-21T23:17:40Z dseagrav: I think it means local bus reset as opposed to nubus reset
2014-07-21T23:18:33Z nyef: Might be. It's been quite a while since I've looked at any of this.
2014-07-21T23:18:38Z dseagrav: Same here
2014-07-21T23:18:56Z dseagrav: I only picked it up about two months ago, and most of that time was spent not in the processor
2014-07-21T23:20:02Z dseagrav: Things are just starting to settle down here, I'm just starting to have free time where I'm not sick and my eyes have recovered enough to read normally
2014-07-21T23:20:22Z nyef: Hrm. Doesn't look like I'm doing ABJ on DISPATCH at all.
2014-07-21T23:20:30Z leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2014-07-21T23:20:36Z nightfly quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3)
2014-07-21T23:21:05Z dseagrav: (There was a huge high blood pressure spike associated with my kidneys giving up that blew holes in my retinas, for awhile we thought I was going to go blind, but the body is pretty resilient)
2014-07-21T23:21:11Z chu joined #lisp
2014-07-21T23:22:30Z nyef: That... sucks. Losing eyesight is pretty high up there on my list of things that I really, REALLY don't want to experience.
2014-07-21T23:22:37Z dseagrav: Yeah
2014-07-21T23:22:50Z nyef: I'd rather lose my right hand.
2014-07-21T23:24:15Z dseagrav: Pretty much
2014-07-21T23:24:28Z dseagrav: But they say I've have useful vision for at least the next 10 years
2014-07-21T23:24:41Z dseagrav: Beyond that may lie dragons but we can't know until we get there
2014-07-21T23:24:46Z nyef: That's... not a great guarantee, but at least it's better than nothing.
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2014-07-21T23:25:06Z nyef: And who knows, they might have figured out some level of synthetic replacement by that point.
2014-07-21T23:25:11Z dseagrav: My mom wants to give me a kidney, so they're doing the workup for that right now
2014-07-21T23:25:15Z shridhar quit (Quit: shridhar)
2014-07-21T23:25:29Z dseagrav: That involves all kinds of fun new issues, mostly around not having an immune system anymore
2014-07-21T23:25:34Z shridhar joined #lisp
2014-07-21T23:26:01Z dseagrav: (They have to turn that off so my body doesn't eat the new organ)
2014-07-21T23:26:21Z amadsen quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2014-07-21T23:26:52Z nyef: There's no way to get an organ compatible with your immune system?
2014-07-21T23:26:52Z dseagrav: I might not be able to keep cats or go to anime conventions anymore
2014-07-21T23:27:45Z dseagrav: nyef: A normal immune system will kill anything that doesn't exactly match your DNA, so unless you have a clone somewhere, no.
2014-07-21T23:28:27Z dseagrav: nyef: That's why they're all excited about this 3D-printing-bio-material stuff, they can grow cells with your DNA from stem cells, and build the organ from that. No rejection.
2014-07-21T23:28:32Z dseagrav: (In theory)
2014-07-21T23:28:56Z dseagrav: But that's decades away from being a thing, provided the anti-scientists don't kill it first
2014-07-21T23:29:05Z nyef: Hrm. And combine that with the bit about converting normal cells into stem cells...
2014-07-21T23:30:58Z nyef: What about some of the more recent DNA-hacking options? Take a donor organ and hack the DNA on all of the cells?
2014-07-21T23:31:17Z dseagrav: I dunno anything about that, and it wasn't mentioned to me.
2014-07-21T23:31:47Z nyef: I don't know if it's possible, but it might be at least plausible.
2014-07-21T23:32:14Z nyef: Could be an interesting angle, even if the lead time is measured in years.
2014-07-21T23:33:01Z dseagrav: They did tell me if they had anything experimental I'd probably be offered because I'd make an excellent research specimen. (I never drank alcohol, never smoked, never did any recreational pharmaceuticals, generally follow medical instructions, and have no observable health issues other than high blood pressure and lack of kidneys, and the high blood pressure may be the result of that rather than the cause.)
2014-07-21T23:33:05Z Xach coughs
2014-07-21T23:33:31Z dseagrav: I've never been so excited at the prospect of being someone's lab rat
2014-07-21T23:35:29Z dseagrav: On a sidenote, kidney dialysis is all kinds of exciting for someone who has a needle phobia.
2014-07-21T23:35:31Z nyef: "Depend upon it Sir, when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully."
2014-07-21T23:36:05Z nyef: We should probably move back towards talking about LispMs.
2014-07-21T23:36:15Z dseagrav: Oh right
2014-07-21T23:36:34Z aeth quit (Quit: Reconnecting)
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2014-07-21T23:36:57Z dseagrav: OK, so anyway, the reason I wanted your attention was because I was hoping you could help me pick this thing apart and get a more usable environment.
2014-07-21T23:37:28Z drewc joined #lisp
2014-07-21T23:38:32Z dseagrav: As it stands, before I started messing around, lisp would run for about 45 minutes to an hour before dying, LMFS write doesn't work, it sends and gets ethernet packets but there's no other defined hosts so you can't talk to anything, and if you try using the namespace editor to add one lisp dies.
2014-07-21T23:38:54Z nyef: Hrm. Honestly, I never got that far.
2014-07-21T23:38:57Z dseagrav: But at least you have a repl and can evaluate things.
2014-07-21T23:39:52Z dseagrav: Right now neither expt or lisp runs because I broke dispatch.
2014-07-21T23:40:06Z nyef: If you recall, I had had that epiphany about fifteen minutes before getting a REPL prompt, that I had managed to obtain the value that I wanted from Nevermore, and that actually running Lisp in it was no longer required.
2014-07-21T23:40:44Z nyef: I never even bothered setting up "real" keyboard emulation, I was still stuffing keypresses into the buffer from my host REPL.
2014-07-21T23:41:48Z dseagrav: I honestly don't remember what nevermore's real point was
2014-07-21T23:42:35Z kristof: jasom: chanl actually doesn't unschedule tasks that block, so that's a no-go.
2014-07-21T23:42:56Z nyef: The whole thing started with me as a C programmer looking for improved productivity, and having heard about LispMs as being amazing in terms of programmer productivity.
2014-07-21T23:43:26Z nyef: "I can't afford one of these machines, but I have experience in writing emulators, and there are disk images available..."
2014-07-21T23:45:19Z dseagrav: Ah. Well, we might still have a point then. Here's my angle with Meroko: First I get it working emulating the microcode. That gives us a means of investigating how the macromachine works, until I get to where I can replace my Raven emulator with a Raven-microcode-emulator that runs the macrocode instead of the Raven microcode. Once that works, then I can start writing drivers for the real PC hardware instead of the simulated Explorer hardware, until
2014-07-21T23:45:43Z nyef: I got fed up with the existing macrocode emulation project (not even capable of running a single instruction), wound up writing my own emulator (killing the previous project by accident), then reached the point where I ran out of documentation and needed more information.
2014-07-21T23:46:13Z nyef: Nevermore started out as my third attempt at a microcode disassembler.
2014-07-21T23:46:48Z seabot: which machine are you guys talking about
2014-07-21T23:46:54Z dseagrav: TI Explorer
2014-07-21T23:46:58Z seabot: oh cool
2014-07-21T23:47:29Z nyef tries to remember what he called the predecessor to nevermore.
2014-07-21T23:47:35Z dseagrav: E3?
2014-07-21T23:47:53Z nyef: No, that was the project that I killed by accident.
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2014-07-21T23:48:56Z nyef: Somebody on the E3 list had asked how to find the initial function in the core file, and I wrote just enough code to figure it out for my explanation, and then it turned out to be useful in actually simulating some of the instructions...
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2014-07-21T23:51:57Z nyef: Ugh. All of this stuff is just older than my current epoch, so I don't have the files on my local disk. /-:
2014-07-21T23:52:32Z nyef: I had a macrocode emulator running the "N928" load band right up until the first context switch.
2014-07-21T23:52:35Z nyef: Written in C.
2014-07-21T23:53:53Z whartung: We had a pair of TI Explorers for 6 mos, a year, wher I worked. But just no idea what to do with them.
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2014-07-21T23:54:15Z whartung: "Expert systems" they said. "Uh ok"
2014-07-21T23:54:37Z dseagrav: Too bad
2014-07-21T23:54:45Z whartung: 10base2 networks with those evil vampire taps
2014-07-21T23:54:45Z dseagrav: That would be nice to have a working machine to look at
2014-07-21T23:54:48Z whartung: yea, it was
2014-07-21T23:55:05Z whartung: we were busying ourselves with the Suns and VAX
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2014-07-21T23:55:07Z nyef: Ah! "exploiter".
2014-07-21T23:55:21Z whartung: we were just groking networking
2014-07-21T23:55:55Z whartung: Yea, a training class would have been nice.
2014-07-21T23:56:36Z whartung: instead we were playing witn Suntools \o/
2014-07-21T23:57:10Z dseagrav: brb, phone
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2014-07-22T00:05:49Z nyef: Wow. I stopped working on Exploiter in favor of Nevermore just about eleven years ago.
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2014-07-22T00:20:06Z nyef: dseagrav: So, here's a possible angle for you: Start with the microExplorer system, which includes provision for talking to a host windowing environment (admittedly, it's MacOS, but it's still a host windowing environment), and we should have source code for the host side driver. The microcode should be basically the same, so it should be an interesting part of the design space.
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2014-07-22T00:29:55Z dseagrav: nyef: I'm back. Eh, I thought about that, I was going to chase after the Symbolics VLM, but there's just too much missing to make it stand alone later.
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2014-07-22T00:30:13Z dseagrav: nyef: What I really want to do is talk someone out of XL1200 ROMs and hack that way
2014-07-22T00:30:19Z zz_karupa is now known as karupa
2014-07-22T00:30:39Z nyef: dseagrav: Did you see the explorer II board set that was on eBay a few months ago?
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2014-07-22T00:30:44Z dseagrav: No
2014-07-22T00:31:11Z nyef: Far more than I was prepared to spend, and it was just the board set not a full machine, but still cool to see.
2014-07-22T00:31:11Z dseagrav: Was there ever a microexplorer that was hummingbird-based?
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2014-07-22T00:31:27Z nyef: All microExplorer machines were based on hummingbird, AFAIK.
2014-07-22T00:31:39Z dseagrav: Wonder if the rom is the same?
2014-07-22T00:32:02Z nyef: It's a different main ROM, but the on-CPU ROM is presumably the same.
2014-07-22T00:32:08Z nyef: And we have dumps for both.
2014-07-22T00:32:27Z dseagrav: The on-CPU one is the one we need right?
2014-07-22T00:32:27Z nyef: IIRC, we have the source, but not binaries, for the MacOS side component as well.
2014-07-22T00:32:38Z nyef: Yeah, it's the one that we don't have.
2014-07-22T00:32:44Z dseagrav: That's new to me.
2014-07-22T00:32:51Z dseagrav: (the macos stuff)
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2014-07-22T00:34:09Z dseagrav: The annoying part is that I am -so close- to getting to Step 1 of this
2014-07-22T00:34:27Z dseagrav: All I have to do is solve this last bit of hair and the fun begins
2014-07-22T00:34:59Z dseagrav: but then I've also made a ton of progress in the last two months if you think about it
2014-07-22T00:40:42Z dseagrav: Anyway, I'll be back in 15 minutes or so, Mom wants me to get something for her to eat. (She's sick today)
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2014-07-22T00:57:52Z nyef: dseagrav: Hey, remember this? http://www.unlambda.com/pipermail/lispm-hackers/2002-May/001367.html
2014-07-22T00:59:10Z nyef: (This was just after I had started the hack that wound up killing the E3 project, and just before it actually DID kill the E3 project.)
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2014-07-22T01:05:31Z kristof: What are you two working on?
2014-07-22T01:07:30Z dseagrav: nyef: Geez, 2002. I didn't think this was that old
2014-07-22T01:08:01Z nyef: kristof: TI Explorer LispM emulation.
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2014-07-22T01:28:22Z dseagrav: nyef: Hey, did you see this stuff? http://jrm-code-project.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/lambda/ulambda/lamlp.lisp
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2014-07-22T01:29:12Z nyef: Oh, sweet. No, this is new by me.
2014-07-22T01:29:19Z dseagrav: I forgot about it
2014-07-22T01:29:30Z dseagrav: It's a dump of a bunch of Lambda stuff. No binaries though.
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2014-07-22T01:33:45Z nyef: There's a certain amount of "holy shit" here from my end: This is some version of MICASM, with a microcode source. If there's also a version of GENASYS we could plausibly create full system images from source (well, and a little bit of binary, given that some of the code tends to be horribly twisted that way in places).
2014-07-22T01:35:17Z dseagrav: The Explorer came from the Lambda, so it's entirely possible. Their means of generating systems was totally different though, at least I think: They had two processors in the machine, the first would set up the second, then dump it out.
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2014-07-22T01:36:51Z dseagrav: There's nothing in there called genasys
2014-07-22T01:36:59Z dseagrav: at least according to grep -Ri
2014-07-22T01:39:29Z nyef: Yeah, different name, at least.
2014-07-22T01:39:45Z nyef: Similar to how lamlp isn't called MICASM.
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2014-07-22T01:49:49Z dseagrav: Ah
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2014-07-22T01:54:51Z spockokt: greetings
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2014-07-22T02:12:21Z nyef: Okay, I definitely don't have any of my old exploiter stuff on my local disk, which means that it'll be about a week before I have access to the disk that most likely has it... And if it doesn't then I don't know where it ended up.
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2014-07-22T02:22:24Z dseagrav: nyef: Did you just move or something?
2014-07-22T02:23:18Z nyef: I split my time between home and a place in Massachusetts. The disk is in MA, and I'm at home for the week.
2014-07-22T02:23:59Z dseagrav: Ah
2014-07-22T02:24:20Z dseagrav: I wonder if I have it... I have a whole bunch of other peoples' old work
2014-07-22T02:24:52Z dseagrav: Looks like I have several copies
2014-07-22T02:25:13Z nyef: You might also see if you have my old reverse-engineered microcode sources, since exploiter was stopped due to a lack of information on how the microcode does a few things.
2014-07-22T02:26:16Z dseagrav: I have files named exploiter-9c0524.tar, exploiter-9c0629.tar, exploiter-9c0630.tar, and two directories named exploiter and exploiter-old
2014-07-22T02:26:34Z dseagrav: and that N928 load
2014-07-22T02:26:43Z dseagrav: What was that, an explorer 2 load band?
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2014-07-22T02:27:02Z nyef: IIRC, N928 was actually an mX load band.
2014-07-22T02:27:08Z dseagrav: Ah
2014-07-22T02:28:20Z dseagrav: Well, gimme a minute here and I'll push up the tar files. I assume the directories are duplicates of the tar files.
2014-07-22T02:28:40Z nyef: Eh, don't bother just yet.
2014-07-22T02:28:48Z nyef: I'm not THAT curious right now.
2014-07-22T02:28:58Z dseagrav: k
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2014-07-22T03:03:07Z nyef: dseagrav: Looking at the explorer1hardwarespec document, it looks like section 7.3.10 (page 7-12 or 182) partly describes popj-14.
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2014-07-22T03:47:48Z dseagrav: nyef: Yeah, the one thing I really wanted was the description of how and when the microPC is altered
2014-07-22T03:48:48Z nyef: That seems to be somewhat distributed, but there's a quirk that I was unaware of in chapter 4.
2014-07-22T03:49:26Z dseagrav: Which one?
2014-07-22T03:49:39Z dseagrav: There was a few "Crap!" moments in Chapter 4
2014-07-22T03:50:24Z nyef: The one where the low two bits of the program counter get forced to 01 during popj-14 if chain-enable is off.
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2014-07-22T03:50:56Z dseagrav: I missed that one
2014-07-22T03:51:10Z dseagrav: but I've been concentrating on dispatch issues
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2014-07-22T04:25:34Z joe-w-bimedina: would someone mind telling me how I can use a variable to supply the y parameter of  make-array, I tried adding this before the variable: #. but I still get Argument Y is not a NUMBER
2014-07-22T04:27:55Z Bike: paste code.
2014-07-22T04:29:21Z joe-w-bimedina: here is the gist link: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/b9723113d47a32c1bcc3
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2014-07-22T04:30:10Z Bike: (make-array (list 3 3 f) ...). read pcl or something.
2014-07-22T04:30:44Z dseagrav: nyef: I'm gonna call it a night; I have to wake up in 5 hours to go get stabbed. I'll be back home noonish tomorrow but I'm usually pretty useless for several hours afterward.
2014-07-22T04:31:40Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thank you Bike: for that, I thought you couldnt alter a params list as a whole
2014-07-22T04:31:53Z nyef: dseagrav: Sleep well, then, and good luck tomorrow.
2014-07-22T04:32:33Z dseagrav: nyef: They're pretty routine at this point; The first one was a real screamer though. I do them tuesday, thursday, and saturday.
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2014-07-22T04:33:37Z dseagrav: nyef: The first time they used needles I was hyperventilating so bad they thought I was going to faint. "We're gonna put you on oxygen," says the nurse, "so you don't faint." I said "Hell no! Just let me faint! Then I'll wake up when it's over!" and I was seriously thinking "Awesome, now all I need is a way to faint on command each time, and I'm set!"
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2014-07-22T04:33:51Z dseagrav: But the nurse shook her head and said "No, we can't let you faint."
2014-07-22T04:34:04Z dseagrav: I'm pretty sure I cursed out loud.
2014-07-22T04:34:51Z dseagrav: It was awful then but it's hilarious now. We (the nurse and I) tell that story to new people who are scared, they laugh and calm down. So at least it was worth that.
2014-07-22T04:36:19Z dseagrav: Anyway, back in a few hours. PM me if you turn up anything interesting.
2014-07-22T04:37:16Z dseagrav: I'm trying to pass the dispatch tests in EXPT again, just so you know where I'm at. Right now it looks like I'm pushing PC somewhere I should be pushing PC+1, or vice versa.
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2014-07-22T04:56:11Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-07-22T04:56:11Z minion: beach, memo from phadthai: IRT the CL-reference: LaTeX for the final format is a great idea, but possibly that collaboration could be easier via a Wiki for the initial draft?  The public domain is invalid depending on region (i.e. non-revokable automatic copyright), so chosing a distribution license might be worth considering (i.e. Creative Commons)?
2014-07-22T04:56:56Z beach: phadthai: I know about the "public domain issue".  Thanks.
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2014-07-22T04:58:15Z beach: phadthai: I agree with the Wiki.  However, in my experience, the number of people working on such a project will either be 0 or 1 (me).  Until I believe there might be more, setting up a Wiki will be wasted time.
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2014-07-22T05:54:07Z pillton: Is it common for people to put ^L characters in their code?
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2014-07-22T06:42:25Z |3b|: pillton: it isn't uncommon, some people/projects use page break character (^L) to organize code, and emacs has commands to do useful things with them
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2014-07-22T06:43:14Z pillton: |3b|: It is a pretty cool idea.
2014-07-22T06:44:20Z |3b|: i guess actually it is "form feed" not page break, but same idea
2014-07-22T06:46:46Z joe-w-bimedina: I have a large 640 x 480 matrices that I am trying to  convert into a make-array, my first idea was, in two dotimes loops, to access the data from the matrices I am trying to convert with mem-aref and then use aref to push them into the array, but that takes a long time. generally speaking is there a faster way to do this kind of operation
2014-07-22T06:48:26Z hitecnologys: clhs row-major-aref
2014-07-22T06:48:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_row_ma.htm
2014-07-22T06:48:27Z |3b|: that sounds like the fast (portable) way if done correctly
2014-07-22T06:50:24Z joe-w-bimedina: great! thank you! does the hyper spec detail the correct way you're refferring to and if not is there another link to that method
2014-07-22T06:50:48Z hitecnologys: (let* ((size (array-total-size x)) (y (make-array size))) (dotimes (i size y) (setf (svref y i) (row-major-aref x i)))
2014-07-22T06:51:29Z hitecnologys: Hyperspec details everything.
2014-07-22T06:51:33Z |3b|: hitecnologys: source is foreign pointer judging by mem-aref
2014-07-22T06:51:48Z joe-w-bimedina: thank you very much! I do appreciate that...yes it is
2014-07-22T06:52:01Z hitecnologys: |3b|: ah, I must have missed that part somehow.
2014-07-22T06:52:37Z hitecnologys: Doesn't CFFI has some kind of alternative for ROW-MAJOR-AREF for foreign pointers?
2014-07-22T06:52:42Z |3b|: make sure you loop across the correct axis first, so it accesses memory in order and make sure it knows types at compile time if possible
2014-07-22T06:53:05Z |3b|: they are pointers, you can access them however you want
2014-07-22T06:53:26Z |3b| has no idea if these are contiguous arrays or not though
2014-07-22T06:53:28Z hitecnologys: And pusing is not very fast vay. Better create array of size (* 640 480) and then just iterate.
2014-07-22T06:53:44Z hitecnologys: s/vay/way/
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2014-07-22T06:53:50Z |3b| assumed it wasn't actually "push"ing, judging by aref
2014-07-22T06:54:06Z hitecnologys: |3b|: "push them into array"
2014-07-22T06:54:14Z |3b|: "use aref to push"
2014-07-22T06:54:29Z |3b| assumes that means not using PUSH to push
2014-07-22T06:54:39Z joe-w-bimedina: they may or not be continous.... also, is the idea of converting large matrices from opencv objects into Lisp arrays for speed a bad one
2014-07-22T06:54:45Z hitecnologys: Hmm, I though it meant push what AREF returns.
2014-07-22T06:54:51Z joe-w-bimedina: exactly just aref
2014-07-22T06:55:00Z joe-w-bimedina: exactly
2014-07-22T06:55:31Z |3b|: depends on what speed and who is using the array and how
2014-07-22T06:55:33Z hitecnologys: Use SVREF if your array is guaranteed to be simple-vector then.
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2014-07-22T06:56:05Z |3b|: if you are just going to send that data back to c/c++ it should probably stay as a c pointer for large arrays like that
2014-07-22T06:56:36Z |3b|: if you are going to do a bunch of processing in lisp, it would probably be faster to convert it once efficiently then use native lisp types from lisp
2014-07-22T06:58:18Z |3b|: for smaller arrays (like 3 or 4 or 3x3 or 4x4) it might be easier to always convert, and try to avoid needing to convert them in the first place
2014-07-22T06:58:50Z joe-w-bimedina: I would need to be able to convert even 4000x4000  matrices to lisp data in about 1 second per million, is that feasible,
2014-07-22T06:59:51Z hitecnologys: Why do you want to do that?
2014-07-22T07:00:37Z pillton: joe-w-bimedina: I would look in to using CFFI:POINTER-TO-VECTOR-DATA.
2014-07-22T07:00:45Z joe-w-bimedina: I was trying to convert everything into Lisp eventually, starting now with large matrices,
2014-07-22T07:01:14Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks for that pillton
2014-07-22T07:01:22Z pillton: Sorry CFFI:WITH-POINTER-TO-VECTOR-DATA.
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2014-07-22T07:01:50Z joe-w-bimedina: I could write the imread function in Lisp, that is the function  that creates the large matrices
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2014-07-22T07:02:43Z |3b|: pillton: you realize that macro copies the array on some implementations? sort of counterproductive when trying to implement a fast copy
2014-07-22T07:03:26Z pillton: |3b|: Yeah, but the decent implementations don't do the copy.
2014-07-22T07:03:52Z |3b|: pillton: wouldn't it be easier to just do it right in the first place?
2014-07-22T07:04:16Z pillton: |3b|: Yes, but Joe is working OpenCV which is full foreign functions.
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2014-07-22T07:05:36Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: copying 4kx4k array should be much less than 1 second
2014-07-22T07:05:45Z pillton: |3b|: If Joe is doing the type of computer vision I do then he is going to need a better way to "communicate" to foreign code.
2014-07-22T07:05:52Z |3b|: or do you mean 1 million copies per second?
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2014-07-22T07:07:33Z joe-w-bimedina: I meant 1 second per million, but if that is unrealistic... now for example I have   1.071 seconds of real time   for 1 300x4000 OpenCv matrix
2014-07-22T07:07:57Z |3b|: what sort of values are in that array?
2014-07-22T07:08:14Z joe-w-bimedina: image  pixel data
2014-07-22T07:08:29Z |3b|: so 1 byte per element? 4 bytes? 4 floats?
2014-07-22T07:08:36Z joe-w-bimedina: uchar
2014-07-22T07:09:06Z joe-w-bimedina: also float if the image needs to be converted to float,  same with all other types
2014-07-22T07:09:46Z |3b|: so you want to transfer 16mbyte 1 million times per second? i don't think even GPU memory is that fast
2014-07-22T07:10:24Z |3b|: is it time to remind you about optimizing too soon again?
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2014-07-22T07:10:51Z joe-w-bimedina: I just dont want to start a path that will not work at all
2014-07-22T07:11:07Z joe-w-bimedina: I have been taking that to heart
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2014-07-22T07:11:48Z |3b|: maybe instead of worrying about the path, worry about the things that pevent you from changing paths
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2014-07-22T07:12:13Z |3b|: have a good layered API and you can fix things that are slow without breaking things
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2014-07-22T07:14:43Z joe-w-bimedina: ok so I will add functions to convert to lisp, alongside my opencv functions, so my users have a choice....if that row-major-aref will do a 400x300 matrix in .5 seconds it is still a good path..thanks 3b:)
2014-07-22T07:14:57Z |3b|: 1 second to copy a 300x4000 matrix suggests you are doing something wrong though, don't pass types to mem-aref in variables, copy into a matching typed lisp array, try copying the other axis first
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2014-07-22T07:15:25Z |3b|: 4000x4000 should be closer to 0.1sec, 300x400 should be much less than 0.5
2014-07-22T07:15:54Z |3b| suspects "taking on a huge project without knowing any of the languages involved" is a path that will not work at all
2014-07-22T07:18:51Z H4ns: groundhog day!  can i show you a gist?
2014-07-22T07:18:53Z slyrus: joe-w-bimedina: have you looked at opticl yet?
2014-07-22T07:19:29Z joe-w-bimedina: I meant 3000x4000 in the lat post,  I didnt pass mem-aref types but didnt copy into matching typed array, just a bare array, and will try the other axis next... I am getting real good at all 3 languages, I write functions and am doing testing for OpenCv, but you are on a different level, so that is why I come to you...to get true expert advice
2014-07-22T07:19:43Z joe-w-bimedina: i'll check it out right now
2014-07-22T07:20:42Z H4ns: self-esteem is no replacement for knowledge or intelligence.  or reading ability.
2014-07-22T07:20:43Z ck_: H4ns: if you think a gist might be a suitable method then please, you should probably do it. BING!
2014-07-22T07:22:03Z joe-w-bimedina: yea, you guys are really helping me get the self esteem, and have confidence in the code I write
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2014-07-22T08:30:42Z slyrus: hmm... can I serialize cxml/cxml-stp stuff to a stream without the <?xml> header?
2014-07-22T08:31:16Z H4ns: not directly.
2014-07-22T08:31:32Z H4ns: i.e. you'll have to explictly remove it.
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2014-07-22T08:37:26Z slyrus: hmm... (serialize (car (stp:list-children ...)) ...) almost seems to do what I want
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2014-07-22T08:38:26Z slyrus: but 1) doesn't quite work and 2) probably only does so by accident
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2014-07-22T08:40:38Z Cymew: It almost doesn't work, by accident? ;)
2014-07-22T08:41:21Z slyrus: exactly
2014-07-22T08:42:41Z Cymew: I tried to parse and serilize xml with cxml and found it to be so painful I gave up, and a colleague wrote a zillion lines of bash code that kinda sorta did it. Cxml probably could handle it, I could not.
2014-07-22T08:43:28Z H4ns: "bash code can handle xml" right.
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2014-07-22T08:45:19Z v0|d: hello, is there a way to learn the name of the defined function like (slot-value (definition ..) 'name) in SBCL?
2014-07-22T08:47:15Z v0|d: oh, fun-name, got it.
2014-07-22T08:51:49Z Cymew: H4ns: I walked away in disgust from xml, so I can't say what he did, but works with vi and bash so I knew it was messy
2014-07-22T08:52:26Z H4ns: Cymew: those who walk away from xml are bound to reimplement it in an ad-hoc fashion, badly. :)
2014-07-22T08:52:45Z Cymew: Would not surprise me a bit! :)
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2014-07-22T08:58:21Z Guthur: H4ns: or often times use a format better suited to the jump
2014-07-22T08:58:27Z Guthur: jump/job
2014-07-22T08:58:34Z AeroNotix: are there any alternatives to stumpwm?
2014-07-22T08:59:26Z PuercoPop: yes
2014-07-22T08:59:27Z Guthur: XML has it's uses but it really shouldn't be used as often as it it is
2014-07-22T08:59:46Z PuercoPop: sawfish or something like that
2014-07-22T09:00:07Z H4ns: Guthur: well, all the underdocumented, unvalidatable json apis that spring into existence everywhere make me think differently.
2014-07-22T09:00:34Z Guthur: and XML API can be just as undocumented
2014-07-22T09:00:57Z H4ns: at least there are well-established ways to validate xml files against a schema.
2014-07-22T09:01:45Z Cymew: I just found this golden oldie by Erik Naggum about XML. God how I miss him sometimes. http://adeht.org/usenet-gems/crit-xml.txt
2014-07-22T09:03:01Z H4ns: it is easy to dismiss xml based on its bad applications.
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2014-07-22T09:03:17Z H4ns: but then, just show me one successful and usable attempt at validating json
2014-07-22T09:03:31Z H4ns: hint: there is none.  so you get to validate everything while processing.
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2014-07-22T09:03:46Z Cymew: I still think json sounds like a proper name
2014-07-22T09:03:59Z H4ns: which is teh suck, and a recipe for distribution of bugs throughout a whole software stack.
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2014-07-22T09:04:02Z Cymew: Considtioning I guess
2014-07-22T09:04:22Z jdz: H4ns: my haskell friend has a validating json parser ;)
2014-07-22T09:04:57Z Guthur: would appear there is actually a draft for json schemas validat
2014-07-22T09:05:01Z H4ns: jdz: nice.  i guess in the end, i'll end up as haskell hacker in a few years.
2014-07-22T09:05:02Z Guthur: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSON#JSON_Schema
2014-07-22T09:05:05Z H4ns: Guthur: just read it.
2014-07-22T09:05:56Z jdz: H4ns: the idea is that the structure of the json is encoded using haskell type system
2014-07-22T09:06:04Z jdz: per use case
2014-07-22T09:06:25Z H4ns: jdz: that, combined with haskell's inherent lazyness, is pretty cool, i guess.
2014-07-22T09:06:55Z H4ns: jdz: it does not help when your application needs to run on the browser, though :)
2014-07-22T09:07:16Z H4ns: anyway.  for every xml rant, there should be a json rant to go with.  this was my attempt :)
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2014-07-22T09:07:45Z Guthur: they are but two formats as well
2014-07-22T09:07:59Z jdz: H4ns: i'm pretty sure it can be done in any other language, too; the problem is that you first define the structure of the message, and then try to match the JSON document, instead of first parsing the document, and then poking around it
2014-07-22T09:08:13Z Guthur: there is now a plethora of formats available
2014-07-22T09:08:54Z jdz: that approach would also fix all the nil/alist/hash-table problems
2014-07-22T09:08:58Z H4ns: jdz: i want to be able to validate large documents while reading them.  and i want my processing code to be able to assume that the input data is valid according to the schema.
2014-07-22T09:09:22Z H4ns: jdz: that is something which xml does very nicely, and the strategy makes both for robust and concise code.
2014-07-22T09:09:35Z jdz: H4ns: you basically need to be able to define the schema in CL
2014-07-22T09:10:00Z H4ns: jdz: right.  that'd be a nice addition to yason, in fact.
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2014-07-22T09:10:25Z jdz: where's the opensource fairy when you need one!?
2014-07-22T09:11:22Z dkcl: RIP Erik Naggum
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2014-07-22T09:12:50Z JuanDaugherty: hmmm, ulcerative colitis, should have been able to address that
2014-07-22T09:13:29Z H4ns: too late now.
2014-07-22T09:13:33Z dkcl: The situation wasn't so simple, but I don't think this is the place to discuss it, if it should be discussed at all
2014-07-22T09:14:22Z JuanDaugherty: ur mention
2014-07-22T09:15:13Z dkcl: <Cymew> I just found this golden oldie by Erik Naggum about XML. God how I
2014-07-22T09:15:13Z dkcl:         miss him sometimes. http://adeht.org/usenet-gems/crit-xml.txt
2014-07-22T09:15:35Z JuanDaugherty: aside from implementations and cl-http i can't think of a cl code set that isn't free/open
2014-07-22T09:15:58Z JuanDaugherty: though i'm sure there are many
2014-07-22T09:16:25Z Cymew: JuanDaugherty: How would you know? If you are not allowed to see it, you naturally know noting of it.
2014-07-22T09:17:03Z JuanDaugherty: right, so it's irrelevant except to its owners and potentially users of the function
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2014-07-22T09:17:34Z JuanDaugherty: one can, with sufficient experience and developed judgment make such appraisals however
2014-07-22T09:17:50Z Cymew: No
2014-07-22T09:18:50Z H4ns turns to his irrelevant code base
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2014-07-22T09:28:48Z JuanDaugherty: although invisible, sources unavailable is an extreme case, mostly not being opensource these days means a proprietary license, especially in lisp
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2014-07-22T09:30:03Z H4ns: JuanDaugherty: most software is closed source, and there is nothing "extreme" about that.
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2014-07-22T09:31:14Z JuanDaugherty: i'm not sure how you determined that as a matter of fact H4ns but I'm sure it can be true in some context
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2014-07-22T09:34:19Z H4ns: JuanDaugherty: i have been writing software for a living for 25 years now, and a large majority of what i wrote or worked with was closed source.  and i met a lot of fellow programmers who do the same.
2014-07-22T09:34:41Z H4ns: JuanDaugherty: it is easy to overestimate open source if all you do is look at open source.
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2014-07-22T09:35:12Z JuanDaugherty: H4ns, i have been doing so for about 35 and essentially all was closed
2014-07-22T09:36:00Z JuanDaugherty: not willing to put time into the complexities of this right now. Sorry about Mr. Naggum, let it be a lesson to those think they can ignore their animal substrates
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2014-07-22T09:37:16Z JuanDaugherty: *who
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2014-07-22T09:40:22Z JuanDaugherty: well all except for what I've posted to github
2014-07-22T09:41:06Z joe-w-bimedina_: do you guys normally get Heap exhausted, game over, when pushing 36,000,000 numbers into a list or vector. is there a way around this?
2014-07-22T09:41:55Z JuanDaugherty: don't push 36 million numbers onto a single list/vector
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2014-07-22T09:42:12Z JuanDaugherty: that or expand the heap
2014-07-22T09:43:02Z joe-w-bimedina_: I guess I could split into smaller lists too...thanks for the insight:)
2014-07-22T09:43:39Z JuanDaugherty: sounds like a failure to decompose the problem
2014-07-22T09:43:45Z H4ns: "insight"
2014-07-22T09:44:41Z joe-w-bimedina_: looking up expand the heap in sbcl now, plus the last post, it actually gave some direction
2014-07-22T09:45:53Z JuanDaugherty: decompose is the better way
2014-07-22T09:47:07Z joe-w-bimedina_: but I guess expanding my own heap is not a good way, because this for other people too, so i should code around it and use the default heap size
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2014-07-22T09:59:56Z Guthur: joe-w-bimedina_: why do you think splitting 36 integers over multiple lists would be any better than one
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2014-07-22T10:00:24Z Guthur: 36 million*
2014-07-22T10:00:30Z joe-w-bimedina_: i can push 1 million into a lst no problem
2014-07-22T10:00:38Z joe-w-bimedina_: *list
2014-07-22T10:01:05Z Guthur: so what do you think will happend when you have 36 of those lists
2014-07-22T10:02:33Z joe-w-bimedina_: I just have to get 36 million numbers into lisp fast and could use some advice....I guess it would exhaust, but my ram doesnt go up(i have 8GB) when it does..should i suggest to my users they increase the heap size
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2014-07-22T10:03:18Z joe-w-bimedina_: i could test for heap size and then error if there is not enough
2014-07-22T10:03:18Z pjb: minion: memo for Bicyclidine: lisp500 is a subset of CL therefore it can be discussed here.
2014-07-22T10:03:19Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Bicyclidine when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-07-22T10:04:27Z jdz: i have no problems executing (progn (loop repeat 36000000 collect 42) nil)
2014-07-22T10:04:40Z jdz: neither in SBCL nor in CCL
2014-07-22T10:05:45Z JuanDaugherty: he's prolly doin floats
2014-07-22T10:05:47Z joe-w-bimedina_: game over after the second try , what is your sbcl heap size?
2014-07-22T10:05:52Z joe-w-bimedina_: no uchar
2014-07-22T10:06:23Z JuanDaugherty: so it's not lisp?
2014-07-22T10:06:30Z jdz: hmm, that's true, on second invocation SBCL lands in LDB
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2014-07-22T10:06:47Z joe-w-bimedina_: no cffi data being passed
2014-07-22T10:06:49Z hitecnologys: Works in my SBCL too. I have default heap size.
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2014-07-22T10:07:23Z jdz: no problem in ccl, though
2014-07-22T10:07:37Z JuanDaugherty: sounds like a sbcl bug/issue
2014-07-22T10:07:45Z joe-w-bimedina_: i'm on 2 3.2ghz cores, i get error on second time, how many tries with  jdz's code till you exhaust it
2014-07-22T10:07:56Z hitecnologys: Why would anyone want 36kk numbers in a list?
2014-07-22T10:08:12Z AeroNotix: Yes, 16kk is enough for anyone
2014-07-22T10:08:14Z joe-w-bimedina_: its a 4000x3000 image
2014-07-22T10:08:15Z AeroNotix: right?
2014-07-22T10:08:19Z jdz: a more interesting question is why SBCL lands in LDB
2014-07-22T10:09:04Z JuanDaugherty: the person who said that is now a humongatarian
2014-07-22T10:09:06Z hitecnologys: Second attempt fails. SBCL is out of heap.
2014-07-22T10:09:32Z joe-w-bimedina_: is that for you, or a rehash of mine
2014-07-22T10:09:32Z moore33: hitecnologys: Perhaps you are a victim of **.
2014-07-22T10:09:52Z jdz: moore33: the result is not stored
2014-07-22T10:10:00Z moore33: Although that seems like a very small heap in this day and age.
2014-07-22T10:10:02Z moore33: hmm
2014-07-22T10:10:08Z hitecnologys: moore33: nope. It's something wrong with SBCL.
2014-07-22T10:10:42Z hitecnologys: Even if I was refering to previous result, SBCL shouldn't lend in LDB.
2014-07-22T10:10:44Z joe-w-bimedina_: i doesnt affect ram, so i must have it set to low
2014-07-22T10:11:49Z JuanDaugherty: better than segfaulting
2014-07-22T10:12:32Z hitecnologys: Indeed.
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2014-07-22T10:14:44Z moore33: Talking completely out my ass, I bet 36M is bigger than a generation size in sbcl's gc.
2014-07-22T10:14:50Z moore33: (seeing the same bug)
2014-07-22T10:15:11Z moore33: Or twice that (the size of the list is)
2014-07-22T10:15:19Z joe-w-bimedina_: how do you view heap size
2014-07-22T10:15:57Z JuanDaugherty: happened on first invocation in 1.2.0 with dynamic space set to 200
2014-07-22T10:16:51Z moore33: joe-w-bimedina_:http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Garbage-Collection
2014-07-22T10:17:29Z JuanDaugherty: but does twice no problem with 2000
2014-07-22T10:17:37Z joe-w-bimedina_: thanks
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2014-07-22T10:21:46Z joe-w-bimedina_: i still get heap exhausted on second time at 2000
2014-07-22T10:22:33Z JuanDaugherty: i used (progn (loop repeat 36000000 collect 42) nil)
2014-07-22T10:22:51Z moore33: Interesting: setting (setf (sb-ext:bytes-consed-between-gcs) 100000000) doesn't help.
2014-07-22T10:23:28Z joe-w-bimedina_: yep, with that code, still on try 2
2014-07-22T10:24:11Z JuanDaugherty: and just did 4X with more or less constant time
2014-07-22T10:24:53Z joe-w-bimedina_: what are your system specs
2014-07-22T10:25:00Z ggole: I'm surprised it isn't removed as dead code
2014-07-22T10:25:28Z JuanDaugherty: dual xeon c. '05/6, debian stable
2014-07-22T10:25:55Z JuanDaugherty: roughly 3s each
2014-07-22T10:26:01Z moore33: JuanDaugherty: The results of the collect must be stored away somewhere, but I can't see where. Let's see if compiling the form does something different.
2014-07-22T10:26:37Z JuanDaugherty: to be clear it's working fine if I set heap 2K
2014-07-22T10:26:52Z moore33: nope
2014-07-22T10:27:44Z JuanDaugherty: with 2G RAM, system not swapping yet
2014-07-22T10:28:25Z JuanDaugherty: correction there's a significant swap
2014-07-22T10:28:37Z joe-w-bimedina_: i can run cffi functions until the ram level cause the system to freeze, but lisp functions exhaust  the heap when the ram is at 1/4
2014-07-22T10:28:47Z JuanDaugherty: forgot this was a hibernated epoch
2014-07-22T10:29:03Z moore33: OK, 36000000 cons cells is 576M, so no mystery that it blows out a 1G heap.
2014-07-22T10:29:16Z moore33: Perhaps a little sooner than it should.
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2014-07-22T10:30:05Z JuanDaugherty: yeah the only reason I said it sounded like a sbcl bug was because of the difference across runs
2014-07-22T10:30:14Z JuanDaugherty: which I haven't been able to reproduce
2014-07-22T10:30:31Z JuanDaugherty: for me it happens immediately on 1st if heap not set
2014-07-22T10:31:00Z moore33: JuanDaugherty: That's probably a function of what else is loaded, what's tenured already, etc.
2014-07-22T10:31:55Z joe-w-bimedina_: mine is always 2, cffi doesnt have this issue, so if it can be set to match the C side, then it would run nice...amy ideas
2014-07-22T10:32:10Z JuanDaugherty: well the swap is really stale, of 2GB 1.5 is free
2014-07-22T10:32:11Z moore33: joe-w-bimedina_: If you want this data in lisp, you should be looking at specialized multi-dimensional arrays.
2014-07-22T10:32:23Z JuanDaugherty: stale/for hibernation
2014-07-22T10:32:31Z joe-w-bimedina_: in cffi
2014-07-22T10:32:32Z moore33: Otherwise, allocate that huge array through cffi. Which might or might not work.
2014-07-22T10:33:30Z JuanDaugherty: and in principle 1.2.1 could be diff, there were relevant changes
2014-07-22T10:33:54Z joe-w-bimedina_: foreign-alloc takes to long to do it, is specialized multi-dimensional arrays in cffi
2014-07-22T10:34:01Z joe-w-bimedina_: is/are
2014-07-22T10:35:16Z moore33: bbl
2014-07-22T10:35:56Z joe-w-bimedina_: babel?
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2014-07-22T10:36:25Z JuanDaugherty: be back later
2014-07-22T10:36:47Z joe-w-bimedina_: take care
2014-07-22T10:37:31Z JuanDaugherty: srsly ur problem is a failure to decompose the problem, once that's done the time complexity should also improve
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2014-07-22T10:38:20Z joe-w-bimedina_: maybe drmeisters lisp is the answer
2014-07-22T10:40:08Z joe-w-bimedina_: moore33: if its not too much trouble can I have a link to the babel doc. for those arrays
2014-07-22T10:40:26Z joe-w-bimedina_: google had nothing for that phrase
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2014-07-22T10:49:23Z rick-monster: hi I'm struggling to get the hang of weak pointers in sbcl.
2014-07-22T10:50:11Z rick-monster: this was how I thought it should work https://gist.github.com/rick-monster/9740e14114ee7de1903b
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2014-07-22T10:55:54Z jdz: rick-monster: did you expect the keyword to be GC'd or what?
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2014-07-22T10:59:20Z rick-monster: jdz: yes I was expecting the keyword to be GC'ed. Same behaviour if I use "bar" instead of :bar.
2014-07-22T10:59:52Z jdz: rick-monster: well, you should not be expecting a keyword to be GC'd because at least the keyword package refers to it
2014-07-22T11:00:08Z jdz: and the keyword itself
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2014-07-22T11:07:41Z rick-monster: I hadn't understood that, thanks jdz.  What about when a string is used in place of a keyword?
2014-07-22T11:08:14Z rick-monster: just updated that gist to indicate what I mean
2014-07-22T11:08:15Z jdz: rick-monster: a freshly created string should work
2014-07-22T11:08:59Z jdz: also, passing :full t to sb-ext:gc might help
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2014-07-22T11:12:50Z Guthur: if I want to create and use my own meta-objects is closer-mop pretty much the standard choice for implementing?
2014-07-22T11:15:01Z JuanDaugherty: well whatever mop the implementation is using
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2014-07-22T11:18:14Z H4ns: Guthur: yes, use closer-mop instead of your implementation specific mop package
2014-07-22T11:20:21Z Guthur: ok, now to figure out how to do what i want
2014-07-22T11:21:48Z moore33: clhs make-array
2014-07-22T11:21:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm
2014-07-22T11:22:07Z moore33: joe-w-bimedina_: that was for you.
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2014-07-22T11:26:19Z joe-w-bimedina_: moore33: thank you, but, make-array wont even load a 4000x3000 array, not even 10 million elements, my imread function takes  10 seconds to load 100 4000x3000 arrays
2014-07-22T11:27:31Z moore33: joe-w-bimedina_:First, (make-array '(4000 3000 3) :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) will take up quite a bit less space than a list of 36M numbers.
2014-07-22T11:27:40Z rick-monster: jdz: hmm even with the :full t that string isn't getting GC'ed. Can verify that the gc has run using sb-ext:*gc-run-time*
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2014-07-22T11:28:35Z moore33: joe-w-bimedina_: Second, are you loading from a file or via cffi calls?
2014-07-22T11:28:40Z didi: Speaking of Closer to Mop, Constanza wrote an interesting post on Julia.
2014-07-22T11:29:17Z moore33: didi: Yeah, it is interesting, though a bit quick to fall back on the "it can all be done with macros" line.
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2014-07-22T11:32:12Z Guthur: moore33: probably can be though
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2014-07-22T11:32:49Z joe-w-bimedina_: on (make-array '(4000 3000 3) :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))  my heap is about to go, ah there it went, so really not safe with default heap size, I use the cv::imread function from c++ OPenCv, it loads from a file, after all my research today, I'm beginning to believe that save for drmeisters lisp , I'm on the right path
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2014-07-22T11:33:29Z moore33: If your heap is too small, it's too small.
2014-07-22T11:34:22Z moore33: Or keep your data in FFI land, ITA style.
2014-07-22T11:34:23Z joe-w-bimedina_:  i upped it to 4096 and still it goes, this has to be for everybody so is it safe to code on an adjusted heap?
2014-07-22T11:34:33Z JuanDaugherty is enlightened in re closer-mop
2014-07-22T11:34:40Z joe-w-bimedina_: what is ITA style mean?
2014-07-22T11:36:08Z moore33: joe-w-bimedina: According to information that's now 12 years old, the company ITA (now part of Google) that powers the Orbitz ticket site builds very large data structures in foreign storage and traverses them with Lisp code.
2014-07-22T11:36:26Z Guthur: JuanDaugherty: I hope I'm not be gratuitous in reaching for closer-mop for this problem
2014-07-22T11:36:55Z JuanDaugherty: you prolly are if $ are the criteria
2014-07-22T11:37:01Z JuanDaugherty: *criterion
2014-07-22T11:37:15Z JuanDaugherty: and lisp hygeine hasn't been prices
2014-07-22T11:37:19Z JuanDaugherty: *priced
2014-07-22T11:37:27Z joe-w-bimedina_: so is that what cffi does? or do you write in C++ and call to it with lisp?
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2014-07-22T11:38:05Z p_l|backup: joe-w-bimedina_: you can use implementation specific calls to manipulate foreign allocated storage, or you can use CFFI
2014-07-22T11:38:09Z moore33: joe-w-bidmedina_: If you are going to do image processing on really large images, either you need a really large heap or you process your images in smaller chunks. It does suck that, as far as I know, you have to specify the heap size in advance.
2014-07-22T11:38:25Z p_l|backup: there was manardb which stored CLOS objects in mmap()ed heap
2014-07-22T11:38:59Z moore33: joe-w-bimedina: I think they built the data with a C/C++ program and used cffi (or, more likely, SBCL aliens) to access the data.
2014-07-22T11:40:08Z joe-w-bimedina_: I can run my imread function until the computer freezes(no ram left), but not make-array the heap gets exhausted after 36,000,000 elements,  how do I make lisp run like that, til the PC freezes like C++
2014-07-22T11:40:26Z Guthur: JuanDaugherty: we'll, see i'll probably post a lisppaste to see what the opinion is, once complete
2014-07-22T11:41:33Z JuanDaugherty: Guthur, lisp is the largest culture I can think of where oop is routinely ignored, a lot of cl doesn't use mop/clos at all
2014-07-22T11:42:10Z joe-w-bimedina_: I can't/won't code in c++ for any extended period so that is not an option, so cffi is just the king I guess, once I get my cuda stuff ready, or clasp comes out then I could make a change
2014-07-22T11:45:19Z moore33: joe-w-bimedina_: In order to get your machine to freeze, you will need to look at the section on garbage collection tuning in the link I posted earlier.
2014-07-22T11:45:22Z Guthur: JuanDaugherty: certainly, but that's a good thing, imo
2014-07-22T11:45:54Z JuanDaugherty: agree, let's you introduce at the system level
2014-07-22T11:46:40Z moore33: joe-w-bimedina_: look at bytes-consed-between-gcs and generation-bytes-consed-between-gcs. Unfortunately, I can't talk you through it.
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2014-07-22T11:46:51Z JuanDaugherty: *lets
2014-07-22T11:46:56Z moore33: I need to look at the code and see if I wrote those functions :) They seem familiar.
2014-07-22T11:47:58Z JuanDaugherty: is cliki just down or dead?
2014-07-22T11:48:07Z joe-w-bimedina_: so I could learn that for each implementation and make that the status-quo in my library, thats what I like, go until it freezes, no limits, I'm always restarting for c++ anyway might as well do it for lisp.. thank you very much moore33: for all your advice today
2014-07-22T11:48:51Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina_: why do you want to work with big when you can't even handle little? You don't seem to know CL very well and still you try to immediately write whole set of bindings for OpenCV that'll do everything as efficient as OpenCL itself (or even better). Haven't you tried doing something... simpler instead?
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2014-07-22T11:53:46Z joe-w-bimedina_: I just try to get the most out of my code, and every one helped me come to a good understanding, I like to talk to the pros here when I'm unsure because the answers help me code with confidence, now I am sure my cffi stuff is really top notch, save for converting c++ data into lisp part as soon as it comes in, that doesnt seem to be a viable solution for large 4000x3000 matrices
2014-07-22T11:54:13Z joe-w-bimedina_: *save for the
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2014-07-22T11:54:58Z hitecnologys: You should focus on getting task done first, then test it and optimize critical parts. We're not doing assembly programming for computer with 8 KiB of memory here.
2014-07-22T11:56:21Z joe-w-bimedina_: I just was trying to figure out if converting large matrices to lisp was viable and now I might do it but if the matrix is bigger than 2000x2000 I might just send an error
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2014-07-22T12:19:52Z Poenikatu: Does the CLIM spec say anything about Drag n' Drop?
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2014-07-22T12:23:03Z JuanDaugherty: no
2014-07-22T12:23:54Z Poenikatu: So, which GUI toolkit *does* implement DnD?
2014-07-22T12:24:04Z JuanDaugherty: it's highly platform dependent
2014-07-22T12:24:22Z Poenikatu: Ok. So, probably use GTK+
2014-07-22T12:24:29Z JuanDaugherty: you might have to implement or upgrade an existing lisp pkg
2014-07-22T12:24:45Z Poenikatu: JuanDaugherty, Thyan
2014-07-22T12:24:53Z Poenikatu: JuanDaugherty, Thanks :-(
2014-07-22T12:25:08Z JuanDaugherty: no single windowing pkg like that will address
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2014-07-22T12:25:32Z JuanDaugherty: assuming you mean to be cross platform, work with apps you didn't code
2014-07-22T12:25:56Z Poenikatu: JuanDaugherty, no, I'm not interested in cross-platform apps. Just Linux
2014-07-22T12:26:11Z JuanDaugherty: if you're only doing drag and drop in your app, gtk may be a good choice
2014-07-22T12:26:31Z JuanDaugherty: i've done direct interaction a couple times never with gtk
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2014-07-22T12:26:55Z Poenikatu: "direct interaction" -> DnD?
2014-07-22T12:27:27Z JuanDaugherty: y. Even on unix there are issues, X provides the basics
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2014-07-22T12:27:51Z JuanDaugherty: easiest is if it is only within your app
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2014-07-22T12:27:58Z JuanDaugherty: after that becomes hairy
2014-07-22T12:28:02Z Poenikatu: Hm. I gather that both the KDE and GNOME desktops use the same DnD protocol
2014-07-22T12:28:15Z JuanDaugherty: the underlying protocol is X
2014-07-22T12:28:26Z JuanDaugherty: so y
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2014-07-22T12:29:01Z Poenikatu: I wasn't aware that the X protocol says anything about DnD. Am I missing something?
2014-07-22T12:29:25Z Poenikatu: Or is it the ICCCM?
2014-07-22T12:30:44Z JuanDaugherty: OK I confabulated
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2014-07-22T12:31:06Z JuanDaugherty: I assume that what was the case on other platforms was on X as well
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2014-07-22T12:31:17Z JuanDaugherty: *assumed
2014-07-22T12:31:40Z JuanDaugherty: so on unix you'd have to assess all the participants
2014-07-22T12:31:54Z JuanDaugherty: general unix
2014-07-22T12:33:18Z JuanDaugherty: http://www.newplanetsoftware.com/xdnd/supporters.html however
2014-07-22T12:34:31Z JuanDaugherty: on any platform the particpants would have to be preprogrammed to accept the drop
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2014-07-22T12:37:06Z JuanDaugherty: or originate the drag
2014-07-22T12:37:43Z JuanDaugherty: impressive when it works though
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2014-07-22T12:38:41Z JuanDaugherty: actually done several times, think maybe smalltalk was happiest
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2014-07-22T12:42:25Z JuanDaugherty: most recent was in js, jquery has a capability for it. There should be some lisp something sumplace
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2014-07-22T12:43:44Z JuanDaugherty: and i forgot browser gives you automatic x platform if you went that way
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2014-07-22T12:45:09Z pjb: hitecnologys: ignorant!  Go read page 34 of http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP330/sp330.pdf  kk is not a unit prefix!
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2014-07-22T12:49:03Z hitecnologys: pjb: I know that it's incorrect. I use "kk" when I'm being not very serious or sarcastic. If it's annoying, I can stop.
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2014-07-22T12:51:12Z pjb: hitecnologys: yes, it's mildly annoying.  Thanks.
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2014-07-22T12:52:11Z hitecnologys: pjb: OK. Will try to switch to SI prefixes only then.
2014-07-22T12:52:19Z pjb: Good :-)
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2014-07-22T13:34:08Z Guthur: is there away to change slot access at the mop level
2014-07-22T13:34:43Z H4ns: Guthur: yes.  what do you want to do?
2014-07-22T13:34:48Z Guthur: i want to leave accessor genfuns as is but effectively customize what slot-value returns
2014-07-22T13:35:16Z H4ns: Guthur: if speed is not your primary concern, you can define methods for slot-value-using-class
2014-07-22T13:35:17Z Guthur: H4ns: the slot-value is wrapped, i want to unwrap before returning
2014-07-22T13:35:35Z H4ns: Guthur: how would slot-value be "wrapped"?
2014-07-22T13:35:44Z H4ns: ah, sorry, _the_ slot-value
2014-07-22T13:35:46Z Guthur: sorry the value in the solve
2014-07-22T13:35:48Z H4ns: gotcha
2014-07-22T13:35:52Z Guthur: solve/slot
2014-07-22T13:36:15Z Guthur: is slot-value-using-class particularly slow?
2014-07-22T13:36:26Z Guthur: or just compared to standard slot-value
2014-07-22T13:36:40Z H4ns: slot-value-using-class would work for that.  by using it, you're disabling several optimizations that the mop can make if there are no methods defined, so you'll always end up with multiple function calls for each slot access
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2014-07-22T13:37:13Z H4ns: i'd not worry too much about it, just saying that you may experience your slot access time to have considerably more overhead when you define methods on s-v-u-c
2014-07-22T13:37:31Z Guthur: umm, might be a problem, but I'll give it a go for now
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2014-07-22T13:37:50Z Guthur: cheers H4ns
2014-07-22T13:38:02Z H4ns: "slower" might still be pretty fast :)
2014-07-22T13:38:16Z Guthur: we can hope
2014-07-22T13:38:43Z Guthur: I've made a conscious decision to ignore performance consideration until later
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2014-07-22T13:39:34Z Guthur: that way i am hoping to only sacrifice what convenience i have to
2014-07-22T13:40:17Z H4ns: why can't you use accessors instead of direct slot value access?
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2014-07-22T13:40:34Z Guthur: That's kind of my first though
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2014-07-22T13:41:04Z Guthur: but the only way i could think of making it really transparent was to provide custom method combination
2014-07-22T13:41:41Z Guthur: so that i don't use the :before  :after (for wrapping/unwrapping)
2014-07-22T13:41:41Z H4ns: well, try the mop way, it is fun.
2014-07-22T13:42:01Z H4ns: :around would be what comes to my mind when thinking about wrapping/unwrapping
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2014-07-22T13:44:14Z H4ns: and then, nobody forces you to create accessors with defclass.  you could as well define them with defgeneric/defmethod and properly do what you want to do in terms of wrapping/unwrapping in the primary method.
2014-07-22T13:44:15Z Guthur: umm yeah I think you're right there
2014-07-22T13:44:22Z Guthur: abount the around
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2014-07-22T13:45:08Z H4ns: the accessors would use slot-value, of course.  the up side of using the mop and slot-value-using-class would be that the wrapping/unwrapping would also be performed when looking at the object in the inspector.
2014-07-22T13:45:23Z H4ns: i.e. it would be rather hard to ever see the internal value.  might also be a downside.
2014-07-22T13:46:02Z Guthur: umm interesting
2014-07-22T13:46:46Z Guthur: actually that's a good point
2014-07-22T13:47:04Z Guthur: i do need access to the internal value in specific situations
2014-07-22T13:47:39Z Guthur: it's an observer pattern extension for instance slots
2014-07-22T13:47:50Z H4ns: eek
2014-07-22T13:47:52Z H4ns: :)
2014-07-22T13:48:24Z Guthur: hehe, it sort of fits nicely with the problem i have
2014-07-22T13:49:15Z Guthur: it's a game engine, so alot of state changes need to be reflected throughout
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2014-07-22T13:49:41Z Guthur: seemed the most convenient approach to achieve this
2014-07-22T13:50:47Z Guthur: I have the observables and have been using them without baking them into the classes, just looking to make it all a little more transparent, so I can mark a slot as :observable
2014-07-22T13:51:17Z H4ns: i'd use the mop for that.  it is a big hammer that has a lot of leverage (=fun)
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2014-07-22T13:53:18Z Guthur: yeah, i can start to go crazy with it, I've already got some ideas for additional use cases
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2014-07-22T15:25:22Z Guthur: I have defined my own slot-value-using-class method but it does not seem to get dispatched on an instance of object using the metaobject class i am specializing on
2014-07-22T15:25:30Z Guthur: using SBCL, is there something else required
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2014-07-22T15:25:57Z Guthur: I notice LW requires a special class option to enable s-v-u-c use
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2014-07-22T15:26:45Z dlowe: Guthur: have you looked at Cells for game state?
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2014-07-22T15:27:17Z H4ns: Guthur: did you use closer-mop:slot-value-using-class as function name when defining the method?
2014-07-22T15:27:45Z H4ns: Guthur: just asking.  i forget the closer-mop: prefix from time to time and wonder why it is not happening.
2014-07-22T15:28:03Z Guthur: H4ns: yep, got that
2014-07-22T15:28:18Z Guthur: even have the args list via slime, so all seems good
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2014-07-22T15:28:25Z H4ns: Guthur: i'd try an isolated test case.  it works for me.
2014-07-22T15:28:54Z Guthur: this is pretty isolated, i'll post my code, it's not long
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2014-07-22T15:29:59Z Guthur: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143210
2014-07-22T15:30:14Z Guthur: dlowe: haven't check out Cells, sound interesting though
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2014-07-22T15:31:12Z dlowe: I haven't either, but it seems like a good fit for that sort of thing.
2014-07-22T15:32:15Z Guthur: umm no home page for any sort of documentation, unless there is a readme or something...
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2014-07-22T15:33:47Z dlowe: sigh. code rot.
2014-07-22T15:33:53Z dlowe: documentation rot, even
2014-07-22T15:34:09Z Guthur: there is a pdf in the source dist
2014-07-22T15:34:26Z eudoxia: >pdf in a source repository
2014-07-22T15:34:32Z eudoxia: this is what lovecraft was talking about
2014-07-22T15:34:56Z dlowe: It's not unreasonable for distribution
2014-07-22T15:35:07Z moore33: Guthur: Late to the party and haven't used this part of the mop much, but should that be closer-mop:value? Does it take the instance as an argument?
2014-07-22T15:35:09Z dlowe: at least for a library
2014-07-22T15:35:30Z dlowe: you don't want your library users to have to pull in your documentation building toolchain too
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2014-07-22T15:37:19Z Xach: or bundlers
2014-07-22T15:37:49Z Xach tries to remember the project that required gigs of tex installation to get docs
2014-07-22T15:38:06Z moore33: All of them :)
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2014-07-22T15:38:46Z Guthur: moore33, that was my wrap function, app specific
2014-07-22T15:39:00Z moore33: Guthur: OK.
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2014-07-22T15:48:38Z felideon: Xach: cool macro!
2014-07-22T15:48:50Z felideon: (photo, I mean, not lisp.) :)
2014-07-22T15:49:15Z joe-w-bimedina: can someone show me an example where foreign-alloc is finalized automatically, I'm trying to make it so people dont have to use foreign-alloc in my library in some functions but if
2014-07-22T15:49:22Z joe-w-bimedina: ii free it ..
2014-07-22T15:49:45Z joe-w-bimedina:  in a function the data is lost when I go to use the returned object
2014-07-22T15:49:46Z H4ns: read. the. documentation.
2014-07-22T15:50:21Z joe-w-bimedina: can you specify where, I have been through it over and over
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2014-07-22T15:53:44Z oGMo: joe-w-bimedina: you can't precisely, what you need to do is have the foreign pointer in a lisp struct and use something like trivial-garbage:finalize on that
2014-07-22T15:53:45Z Guthur: H4ns: did that code example i post appear correct to you?
2014-07-22T15:54:10Z H4ns: Guthur: i could not see anything suspicious, but i have no time to try it out right now, sorry
2014-07-22T15:54:13Z oGMo: joe-w-bimedina: i have a predefined setup for that in cl-autowrap, looking at it may help
2014-07-22T15:54:22Z Guthur: H4ns: no worries
2014-07-22T15:54:37Z oGMo: joe-w-bimedina: https://github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap/blob/master/autowrap/wrapper.lisp
2014-07-22T15:54:43Z Guthur: i've looked through a couple of examples, and they all seem similar to what i have
2014-07-22T15:55:14Z H4ns: Guthur: is your slot-value-using-class method ever called?
2014-07-22T15:55:21Z Guthur: nope
2014-07-22T15:55:38Z oGMo: joe-w-bimedina: as always, never refer to the wrapper in the finalizer or it'll never get freed
2014-07-22T15:56:02Z Guthur: H4ns: oh wait it has been
2014-07-22T15:56:09Z joe-w-bimedina: I noticed foreign-alloc isnt on that page
2014-07-22T15:56:11Z Guthur: ah really sorry I'm an idiot
2014-07-22T15:56:47Z H4ns: man, joe-w-bimedina it is not on that page because YOU, the PROGRAMMER, need to infer how it works and where to put what.
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2014-07-22T15:58:13Z oGMo: foreign-alloc just makes stuff, you're talking about freeing stuff, it's somewhat orthogonal
2014-07-22T15:59:25Z joe-w-bimedina: oGMo: thats an interesting library, I have seen it around, I didnt know you wrote it though, how does it compare with swig. is it better?
2014-07-22T15:59:49Z oGMo: (and you rarely call free() on stuff too, you often want a specific cleanup function, so there's no foreign-free there either heh)
2014-07-22T16:00:05Z oGMo: joe-w-bimedina: yes, unless you need c++ stuff, which is currently not handled
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2014-07-22T16:00:58Z oGMo: c2ffi does a true parse and autowrap produces a complete wrap, but it takes a bit of tweaking usually
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2014-07-22T16:01:32Z joe-w-bimedina: good job, then...you beat swig..congrats:)  that will be fun to learn then
2014-07-22T16:01:32Z oGMo: there are tools for handling horrible things like names distinguished only by case
2014-07-22T16:01:56Z oGMo: joe-w-bimedina: well to be fair, clang does most of the work, i just put it to use heh
2014-07-22T16:02:13Z joe-w-bimedina: nothing wrong with that
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2014-07-22T16:11:27Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2014-07-22T16:54:11Z zaphro53: There seem to be lot of JS/Common Lisp implementations at http://ceaude.twoticketsplease.de/js-lisps.html. Any consensus in the Common Lisp community as to which is the best?
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2014-07-22T16:56:22Z Xach: zaphro53: I'm surprised to see so many there. I've only heard of jscl as a very CL-oriented lisp in javascript.
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2014-07-22T16:56:43Z Xach: Taking a look at a handful of them makes it look like they're being charitable when saying it a particular project targets Common Lisp.
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2014-07-22T17:00:10Z zaphro53: Xach: Only 4 target CL
2014-07-22T17:00:49Z zaphro53: Xach: Of these 4 only 2 use a CL build env: lisp2js and ParenScript
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2014-07-22T17:01:21Z Xach: I don't understand the table, then.
2014-07-22T17:01:47Z Xach: It seems to me that 9 of them have "Common Lisp" in "Dialect"
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2014-07-22T17:01:58Z Xach checks the article
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2014-07-22T17:02:16Z Xach: Oh, the article clarifies the broad nature of "Common Lisp" there.
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2014-07-22T17:03:02Z zaphro53: Xach: Sorry, wrong way round. 4 target CL build env of which 2 are described as CL dialect
2014-07-22T17:03:46Z didi: Well, the criteria and names weren't a good choice.
2014-07-22T17:04:39Z Xach: zaphro53: As far as consensus, I think these days people are more aware of jscl than others, but I haven't heard of people publicly using js cl stuff much at all.
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2014-07-22T17:05:48Z zaphro53: Xach: jscl isn't listed here
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2014-07-22T17:06:13Z Xach: zaphro53: That table is from 2011
2014-07-22T17:06:34Z Xach: jscl is more recent
2014-07-22T17:08:59Z zaphro53: Any Quicklips packages?
2014-07-22T17:09:09Z zaphro53: Quicklisp
2014-07-22T17:09:20Z Xach: No, it's a javascript program, not a CL program.
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2014-07-22T17:09:43Z Xach: zaphro53: What are you trying to do with the thing you find? Maybe I can make a better suggestion.
2014-07-22T17:10:19Z zaphro53: Xach: Something like Clojurescript, ie. use of CL itself for generating JS
2014-07-22T17:11:00Z Xach: Oh. I don't know anything about clojurescript, but I know multiple people use parenscript to generate js within a CL environment.
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2014-07-22T17:11:57Z zaphro53: Xach: Maybe ParenScript is the right choice, then. Will give it a try.
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2014-07-22T18:32:11Z renard_: hi
2014-07-22T18:32:38Z renard_: Is there a package that handle files or stream like emacs buffer dœs ?
2014-07-22T18:33:02Z renard_: I am looking for APIs similar to emacs lisp
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2014-07-22T18:34:32Z nyef: renard_: Have you looked into any of the CL-based emacsen?
2014-07-22T18:35:01Z renard_: nyef not yet
2014-07-22T18:35:12Z renard_: I was wondering if some has clues about that
2014-07-22T18:35:21Z renard_: or a standalone package
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2014-07-22T18:35:29Z renard_: thanks for the tip BTW
2014-07-22T18:36:17Z JuanDaugherty: like macs but in cl is what you mean?
2014-07-22T18:36:24Z JuanDaugherty: *emacs
2014-07-22T18:36:49Z renard_: JuanDaugherty: yes I would like to use emacs like APIs in CL
2014-07-22T18:37:35Z JuanDaugherty: embedding emacs comes to mind
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2014-07-22T18:40:31Z renard_: embedding emacs in CL ?
2014-07-22T18:40:53Z JuanDaugherty: no, in your app
2014-07-22T18:41:26Z Oberon4278: Wouldn't that be a fairly large amount of code to include?
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2014-07-22T18:42:02Z JuanDaugherty: i don't know for a fact but I think it mostly goes the other way, cl stuff for emacs
2014-07-22T18:42:16Z renard_: Oberon4278: I guess this would be overkill indeed
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2014-07-22T18:43:49Z JuanDaugherty: the best advice I think is use emacs stuff in emacs and cl stuff in cl portions of your app(s)
2014-07-22T18:44:12Z renard_: JuanDaugherty: seems fair enough
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2014-07-22T18:45:06Z whartung: what are you trying to do renard_
2014-07-22T18:45:07Z renard_: I just found the emacs API simple and easy for string manipulation
2014-07-22T18:45:24Z renard_: whartung: for the moment nothing yet
2014-07-22T18:45:35Z whartung: well, there's Hemlock, which is a CL "emacs-ish" thing
2014-07-22T18:45:36Z JuanDaugherty: but if you had to you could do a build of emacs stripping it down so you could use it as a lib
2014-07-22T18:45:45Z renard_: I have some code I use inside emacs
2014-07-22T18:45:47Z whartung: if you're just looking to lift some functions
2014-07-22T18:46:03Z renard_: I was wondering if I cans move them out to CL
2014-07-22T18:46:11Z renard_: For the moment I am pretty new in CL
2014-07-22T18:46:19Z renard_: just to learn
2014-07-22T18:46:22Z whartung: if it was just some string api stuff, you're better off probably selectively copying them over
2014-07-22T18:46:54Z whartung: and are you talking actual string stuff, or buffer stuff?
2014-07-22T18:46:58Z renard_: whartung: yes besides, buffer stuff is very handy in emacs
2014-07-22T18:46:58Z JuanDaugherty: cl is the richer env, so you probably should just steel/immerse urself in it
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2014-07-22T18:47:19Z whartung: well, sure, emacs is all about buffers
2014-07-22T18:47:32Z renard_: whartung: mainly buffer stuffs that helps a lot for string manipulation
2014-07-22T18:48:10Z whartung: is there an example you can share of what you'd like to do?
2014-07-22T18:48:41Z whartung: I mean, buffers are nice, but they're a little overkill for basic string work
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2014-07-22T18:49:09Z whartung: theyre optimized for lots of littleoperations on a large space (i.e. the buffer)
2014-07-22T18:50:29Z whartung: there's likely a CL rope package, which might offer some stuff you're looking for
2014-07-22T18:51:05Z whartung: but ropes != buffers
2014-07-22T18:51:44Z renard_: whartung: https://github.com/renard/ssh-config-el/blob/master/ssh-config.el
2014-07-22T18:51:54Z renard_: this is and old code
2014-07-22T18:52:27Z renard_: Is can be a good starting point since is s simple project that generate ssh configs
2014-07-22T18:57:40Z whartung: well, not being an emacs guy, all I really see here as far as buffers can be done with with-output-to-string. Org mode seems to be doing much of heavy lifting in this code.
2014-07-22T18:57:48Z whartung: but I may be missing something
2014-07-22T18:59:23Z renard_: some many useful stuff with buffer API are next-line forward-char goto-char or narrow-buffer
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2014-07-22T19:00:04Z whartung: of course
2014-07-22T19:00:43Z whartung: the key distinction being that your buffer is read write, vs typical simple parsing techniques against a read only buffer treating it like a stream.
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2014-07-22T19:02:34Z whartung: buffers are the hammer that emacs provides, which is why they're used so liberally.
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2014-07-22T19:03:36Z renard_: whartung: Yep I feel very comfy using them
2014-07-22T19:03:46Z renard_: I fell naked whiout
2014-07-22T19:03:50Z whartung: :)
2014-07-22T19:04:44Z dlowe: the only thing that really bugs me in CL vs elisp is that elisp has concat
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2014-07-22T19:05:09Z whartung: if you implement the bulk of these, you'd be fine.
2014-07-22T19:05:09Z whartung: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Text.html#Text
2014-07-22T19:05:21Z dlowe: otherwise, CL wins for string manipulation every time
2014-07-22T19:05:43Z dlowe: when appropriately extended with libraries
2014-07-22T19:06:08Z whartung: is there a library that assumes not-mutable strings?
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2014-07-22T19:07:14Z dlowe: well, there's non-mutating versions of all the sequence operators, which will get you a long way
2014-07-22T19:07:25Z dlowe: the stuff in cl-ppcre can be made to share string storage
2014-07-22T19:07:30Z whartung: I meant for things like substrings and such
2014-07-22T19:07:33Z whartung: yea
2014-07-22T19:08:01Z whartung: lunch, bbl
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2014-07-22T19:11:03Z renard_: maybe climacs http://common-lisp.net/viewvc/climacs/climacs/ is worth looking at it
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2014-07-22T19:13:54Z dlowe: I don't think climacs was a sufficient improvement over the emacs architecture
2014-07-22T19:14:23Z dlowe: Plus, it ignored terminal use. There was only a graphical interface.
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2014-07-22T20:04:20Z renard_: whartung: I guess flexichain would do the trick
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2014-07-22T20:21:07Z whartung: sure sounds suspicious renard_
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2014-07-22T20:21:27Z renard_: why ?
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2014-07-22T20:22:20Z whartung: looks like what you want renard_
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2014-07-22T20:23:15Z whartung: be interesting to look at it, I did my own gap buffer implemenation some time ago
2014-07-22T20:23:55Z renard_: hep but now bed time
2014-07-22T20:24:02Z whartung: nn
2014-07-22T20:24:02Z renard_: Have a look tommorrow
2014-07-22T20:24:03Z whartung: sd
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2014-07-22T20:24:31Z renard_: btw I wnder why cliki is sooo sloooww or unavailable
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2014-07-22T20:25:15Z whartung: yea I dunno, don't know anything about its hosting or implementation
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2014-07-22T21:01:04Z drewc: renard_: I know a little about the cliki hosting given that it may be on one of my servers... no idea why it is slow or unavailable though... that server is fast and furious.
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2014-07-22T21:02:33Z nyef: Long-running process instance, plus many request-handling threads, some/many of which might be stuck, causing the GC to spend a lot of time stopping the world?
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2014-07-22T21:08:01Z drewc: nyef: I do not know ... do not even have access to the kvm-hosted box itself, stopped running cliki in like 2011, and have put up with the sh*te that developed since then since folks seem to think I am still involved even though $(whois cliki.net) says otherwise. Sigh.
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2014-07-22T21:51:52Z Poenikatu: What has to be done to get McCLIM to use UTF-8?
2014-07-22T21:52:23Z nyef: Use it in what sense?
2014-07-22T21:52:55Z nyef: An awful lot of McCLIM has little, if anything, to do with character encoding.
2014-07-22T21:53:04Z Poenikatu: Well, when I use "ruĝa" as a label, I am told that it is not (unsigned 8)
2014-07-22T21:53:28Z Poenikatu: The datum is 285
2014-07-22T21:53:51Z nyef: Okay, so you're somewhere in the text output / font rendering logic?
2014-07-22T21:54:21Z Poenikatu: No, I'm reading the Guide to the CLIM and implementing the examples therein
2014-07-22T21:55:02Z nyef: Step one, get a backtrace.
2014-07-22T21:55:02Z Poenikatu: The 2nd example is a simple colour editor. So I tried using the Esperanto words for red, green and blue for the labels, but that didn't work.
2014-07-22T21:57:24Z Poenikatu: Hm, looking at the SLIME backtrace, it looks rather complicated. So ignore my question and I'll go on learning about the CLIM to see whether it's possible to enter UTF-8 data.
2014-07-22T21:57:27Z nyef: At a guess, you'll find that you're in a method on a GF defined in the CLIMI (or CLIM-INTERNALS) package involving the word "TEXT" in the name, and possibly thence within CLIM-CLX::TRANSLATE.
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2014-07-22T21:58:13Z Poenikatu: Indeed, CLIM-CLX::TRANSLATE
2014-07-22T21:58:18Z nyef: Possibly with some CLX function frames inbetween.
2014-07-22T21:58:48Z nyef: So, that's in Backends/CLX/medium.lisp on my local system, and is most likely the place to try and put a fix.
2014-07-22T21:59:39Z Poenikatu: The font the app is trying to use is -adobe-helvetica-medium-r-normal--14-100-100-100-p-76-iso10646-1. Is that indexed by 8-bit bytes or 16-bit words?
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2014-07-22T22:01:47Z nyef: Looks like they're 16-bit fonts.
2014-07-22T22:02:05Z Poenikatu: Hm. I can see that a *lot* more learning about CLIM is required. Ho hum. Back to the drawing board.
2014-07-22T22:02:11Z nyef: Good luck.
2014-07-22T22:02:30Z Poenikatu: nyef, Do you use the CLIM regularly?
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2014-07-22T22:02:50Z nyef: That I do not.
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2014-07-22T22:03:13Z Poenikatu: nyef, Do you use *any* windowing s/w with CL?
2014-07-22T22:03:19Z nyef: I tried using McCLIM a few times, but had quite a bit of trouble with it, so I gave up on that.
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2014-07-22T22:03:33Z nyef: Not these days, I've been largely server-side for a while now.
2014-07-22T22:04:04Z Poenikatu: Ok. Must go now, it's late here (23:04). Tatty-bye
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2014-07-22T22:43:08Z jasom: Does anyone here use poplog's common lisp implementation?
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2014-07-23T00:29:02Z kristof: jasom: Clojure does thread-safe dynamic binding
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2014-07-23T01:09:39Z kristof: jasom: By which I mean that you can establish dynamic bindings within a green thread and they'll persist no matter where the green thread is being executed.
2014-07-23T01:10:37Z kristof: jasom: And establishing a dynamic binding right before you spawn another thread will possibly spawn the new thread with those bindings... as long as you don't perform a blocking operation before spawning the thread :P
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2014-07-23T02:15:14Z pjb: jasom: using poplog is on my todo list. ie. not yet.
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2014-07-23T02:48:30Z didi: Can `svref' perform better than `aref' on an array which I've declared the :element-type?
2014-07-23T02:49:56Z didi: (:element-type is (unsigned-byte 16) by the way)
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2014-07-23T02:55:42Z kristof: didi: in sbcl: (defun svref (simple-vector index) <docstring> (aref simple-vector index))
2014-07-23T02:56:40Z kristof: didi: Oh, uh, I ommited an important line. (declare (optimize (safety 1))). So that probably affects the speed.
2014-07-23T02:57:06Z kristof: *omitted.
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2014-07-23T02:57:42Z didi: Hum. Thanks, kristof.
2014-07-23T02:58:58Z seabot: hey, it's much more interesting in my ccl
2014-07-23T02:59:13Z seabot: it's literally one assembly instruction
2014-07-23T02:59:37Z kristof: didi: I'd check the definition of svref in whatever implementation you're using.
2014-07-23T03:00:00Z seabot: personally i'd use svref if it's a simple-vector simply for semantic correctness
2014-07-23T03:00:04Z seabot: and if it happens to be faster, cool
2014-07-23T03:00:28Z kristof: For some reason I usually just assume sbcl is faster than clozure.
2014-07-23T03:00:57Z seabot: well it probably is most of the time? but that doesn't mean everything it does is faster
2014-07-23T03:01:37Z zRecursive: CCL has the fastest compiling speed
2014-07-23T03:01:50Z kristof: That's not what I meant by 'faster' :P
2014-07-23T03:01:55Z Bike: in this case, the svref definition is because sbcl applies the same optimizations to an aref call, so it's just not being redundant.
2014-07-23T03:02:10Z kristof: That's what I thought
2014-07-23T03:02:20Z Bike: ccl generally doesn't take as much time trying to come up with optimizations, so it just has an svref that's fast.
2014-07-23T03:03:09Z Bike: so i'd use svref generally. except that if your array has an element-type that isn't t isn't not a simple-vector.
2014-07-23T03:03:31Z Bike: upgraded element type. eh.
2014-07-23T03:03:55Z kristof: lovely!
2014-07-23T03:04:03Z kristof: Except I would rather just use aref all the time
2014-07-23T03:04:26Z Bike: that last bit is probably important to didi.
2014-07-23T03:06:02Z didi: Bike: Yeah, it isn't. I will try to use `aref' then. Decorating `aref' forms with (the (unsigned-byte 16) ...) at the moment.
2014-07-23T03:06:29Z Bike: that hopefully won't be necessary if the array is known to be an (array (unsigned-byte 16))
2014-07-23T03:07:06Z didi: Bike: Hummmm. It's a `defparameter'. Maybe I should decorate the value with `the'?
2014-07-23T03:07:32Z Bike: (declaim (type (array (unsigned-byte 16)) *variable-name*))
2014-07-23T03:07:39Z didi: Excellent.
2014-07-23T03:07:46Z didi: Thank you, Bike.
2014-07-23T03:07:59Z Bike: no problem
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2014-07-23T03:09:37Z kristof: So, I didn't know you could declaim setfable variables
2014-07-23T03:10:47Z Bike: yeah, sure. that just makes setfing them to something that violates the declaration cause undefined behavior as you are lying to the compiler.
2014-07-23T03:11:22Z Bike: so it's not just dynamic variables you can declare types of and then mutate, it's any.
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2014-07-23T03:12:34Z kristof: At the interpreter, it just returns a runtime error (in sbcl)
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2014-07-23T03:12:55Z kristof: Neat :^)
2014-07-23T03:13:28Z Bike: if you lower safety levels you'll get memory faults and shit. have fun, i guess.
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2014-07-23T03:15:38Z didi: Silly Bike. Segfaults are not fun.
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2014-07-23T04:36:32Z mburke: I think I'm doing lisp wrong and I'd like some help to straighten me out. I'm using limp+vim and got my code organized in a package, but the simplistic send-form-to-lisp implementation in limp isn't pacakge aware.
2014-07-23T04:36:42Z mburke: redefining functions don't end up in the target package, etc.
2014-07-23T04:37:04Z mburke: I feel like I'm fighting it and should be doing something different/better but not sure what
2014-07-23T04:38:40Z mburke: currently I'll just re-require the module but that doesn't always re-build/reload code, so I'll kill lisp and re-start, which is a pain.
2014-07-23T04:39:24Z antonv: mburke: you need to have cl:*package* variable to refer your package when your forms are executed
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2014-07-23T04:39:48Z antonv: you can do it manually (in-package :my-package)
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2014-07-23T04:40:06Z antonv: execute it first
2014-07-23T04:40:08Z antonv: then other forms
2014-07-23T04:40:32Z mburke: ahh okay
2014-07-23T04:40:36Z antonv: I don't know what limp is, but that's how packages work
2014-07-23T04:40:49Z antonv: everyone use slime for lisp development
2014-07-23T04:40:52Z antonv: + emacs
2014-07-23T04:40:59Z antonv: well, almost everyone
2014-07-23T04:41:04Z mburke: limp is just a wrapper on top of screen to allow you to send forms to a lisp running in the background from vim
2014-07-23T04:41:20Z antonv: ah
2014-07-23T04:41:52Z mburke: I feel too entrenched in vim (and too stupid) to pick up emacs :|
2014-07-23T04:41:57Z seabot: it's true, as a longtime vim user
2014-07-23T04:42:00Z seabot: i was disgusted by emacs
2014-07-23T04:42:03Z seabot: and refused to use it for so long
2014-07-23T04:42:07Z seabot: just copying and pasting between vim and my repl
2014-07-23T04:42:15Z seabot: give up. accept emacs+slime.
2014-07-23T04:42:19Z antonv: SLIME is more evolved, but you are right, it is overcomplication to learn two tools at the same time: lisp and emacs
2014-07-23T04:42:34Z seabot: oh. fair enough.
2014-07-23T04:42:40Z antonv: when I was starting with lisp, I've just edidted files in simple editor and loaded them from command line
2014-07-23T04:42:48Z mburke: I don't really feel disgusted, but rather 15 years of muscle memory to overcome, heh
2014-07-23T04:42:52Z seabot: if you have a mac, download Clozure CL from the app store ;)
2014-07-23T04:42:59Z seabot: free IDE!
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2014-07-23T04:43:42Z antonv: aren't there SLIME clients for emacs?
2014-07-23T04:43:56Z antonv: I mean for VIM
2014-07-23T04:44:15Z seabot: that sounds terrifying- isn't it largely written in elisp?
2014-07-23T04:44:19Z seabot: i don't even understand how that would work
2014-07-23T04:44:24Z seabot: but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
2014-07-23T04:44:51Z mburke: not full slime. there's slimv and limp that I know of
2014-07-23T04:46:03Z otwieracz: Some time ago d-wave was looking for CL developer.
2014-07-23T04:46:14Z otwieracz: They are still involved in Lisp?
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2014-07-23T04:46:25Z mburke: I believe so, yeah
2014-07-23T04:47:19Z seabot: their "OS" is written in lisp iirc
2014-07-23T04:47:29Z otwieracz: So there are 367 people dreaming about job in d-wave?
2014-07-23T04:47:46Z mburke: heh
2014-07-23T04:47:53Z theos: whats d-wave
2014-07-23T04:48:08Z mburke: half their executives are people that used to work at electronic arts
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2014-07-23T04:48:16Z seabot: the next lisp machine is a quantum computer
2014-07-23T04:48:18Z seabot: or something like that
2014-07-23T04:48:43Z theos: it will be python machine more likely
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2014-07-23T04:50:25Z theos: lisp was like a good product with poor marketing
2014-07-23T04:50:43Z otwieracz: It's so fuckin sad.
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2014-07-23T04:58:02Z otwieracz: Because right now it is nearly impossibile to get paid writing in lisp.
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2014-07-23T05:19:51Z Guthur`: otwieracz: you can always use it to make you life in whatever job you are doing
2014-07-23T05:20:36Z Guthur`: there are quite often many activities that no one has bother automating or improving with a small matter of programming
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2014-07-23T05:20:51Z Guthur`: and with CL a small amount of programming can get you an awful lot
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2014-07-23T05:52:41Z otwieracz: But that's not the point.
2014-07-23T05:52:54Z otwieracz: And you know this :)
2014-07-23T05:53:57Z seabot: don't get paid to write lisp
2014-07-23T05:53:59Z seabot: get paid to do your job
2014-07-23T05:54:03Z seabot: write lisp to do your job
2014-07-23T05:54:08Z seabot: :)
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2014-07-23T05:57:27Z otwieracz: Yea, I've used to do like this whenever I've got opportunity.
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2014-07-23T05:57:36Z otwieracz: But fuck, I just want to work in d-wave. :)
2014-07-23T05:57:51Z seabot: good luck
2014-07-23T05:57:52Z otwieracz: quantum computers – no idea how those are working, but sounds great.
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2014-07-23T05:58:12Z otwieracz: programming quantom computers in common lisp – sounds awesome ;)
2014-07-23T05:58:22Z otwieracz: I'm only joking of course.
2014-07-23T05:58:34Z otwieracz: I mean, that will be great.
2014-07-23T05:58:52Z otwieracz: But that's obvious that there are no chances for that.
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2014-07-23T06:02:18Z seabot: an attitude like that won't get you a job at d-wave ;)
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2014-07-23T06:07:06Z otwieracz: I am just kind of realist.
2014-07-23T06:08:23Z seabot: wise
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2014-07-23T06:24:38Z mburke: antonv: working well for me now. thanks! :)
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2014-07-23T06:49:00Z joe-w-bimedina: Can someone show me how I evaluate  (unsigned-byte 8) as the keyform arg of a case statement.  Im  trying to use a case to dispatch based on the array-element-type.
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2014-07-23T06:52:52Z H4ns: typecase
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2014-07-23T07:01:00Z joe-w-bimedina: it doesnt evaluate (unsigned-byte 8) if I put a quote in front of it or 2 like ('unsigned-byte '8), how do I get the typecase to recognize (unsigned-byte 8) as a type?
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2014-07-23T07:03:20Z renard_: drewc: ok thanks for the update, nevermind for the cliki access
2014-07-23T07:03:31Z H4ns: (typecase 1 ((unsigned-byte 8) 'ja) (t 'noe))
2014-07-23T07:03:50Z renard_: sometimes it works sometimes it hangs
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2014-07-23T07:11:32Z joe-w-bimedina: ok, i figured out the issue, that is what I had but (defparameter s (array-element-type arr)) and run the typecase with s as the keyform that is when it doesn't work
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2014-07-23T07:13:09Z H4ns: a global parameter for the type of a variable?  what would that be good for?
2014-07-23T07:13:31Z H4ns: a typecase matching on a type of a certain global variable?
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2014-07-23T07:15:12Z joe-w-bimedina: I just do that for repl testing, I put in in a let and same issue, this is kind of differen't than what i'm used to
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2014-07-23T07:21:06Z hitecnologys: Is iolib multiplexer multi-threading aware?
2014-07-23T07:22:08Z H4ns: hitecnologys: what do you mean by that?
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2014-07-23T07:23:33Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I mean, can I safely manipulate event-base from several threads or I need to implement my own synchronization mechanisms for it?
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2014-07-23T07:24:47Z H4ns: hitecnologys: what does the documentation have to say about it?  what do you gather from the source?
2014-07-23T07:25:33Z H4ns: hitecnologys: i would not assume that you can modify event-base from multiple thread without locking unless it is specifically mentioned in the documentation.  it would be too costly in the general case.
2014-07-23T07:25:35Z hitecnologys: H4ns: documentation doesn't seem to have anything. I see no locks and other similar things in sources but I'm still looking.
2014-07-23T07:25:51Z hitecnologys: H4ns: yes, that's what I though too.
2014-07-23T07:25:54Z H4ns: hitecnologys: assume that you can't.  locks are expensive.
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2014-07-23T07:27:49Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I'll stick to one networking thread then and implement something when I feel like scaling.
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2014-07-23T07:29:31Z hitecnologys: H4ns: thanks for help.
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2014-07-23T08:19:28Z moore33: Does anyone have an opinion about sbcl vs ccl on Windows? Or any other implementation for that matter?
2014-07-23T08:19:50Z joe-w-bimedina: sbcl works real good
2014-07-23T08:19:58Z joe-w-bimedina: solid and no errors ever
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2014-07-23T08:20:12Z moore33: My spiffy laptop is spending more time in Windows now that Assassin's Creed IV has been purchased :)
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2014-07-23T08:20:47Z joe-w-bimedina: i would definitely choose sbcl on any implementation, mac on tested
2014-07-23T08:20:54Z joe-w-bimedina: i mean os
2014-07-23T08:21:06Z joe-w-bimedina: s /on/not
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2014-07-23T08:21:18Z Adeon: I remember that not-so-far-in-past sbcl on windows was experimental and was considered unstable
2014-07-23T08:21:24Z Adeon: but I think they sorted all that out by now
2014-07-23T08:21:46Z joe-w-bimedina: it was just 64 bit i think,
2014-07-23T08:21:52Z joe-w-bimedina: was unstable
2014-07-23T08:22:15Z moore33: Adeon: yeah, AFAIK the web pages still say that it is unstable.
2014-07-23T08:22:20Z hitecnologys: moore33: SBCL is experimental on Windows and may be unstable. Use it with caution.
2014-07-23T08:22:29Z moore33: There ya go.
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2014-07-23T08:22:44Z moore33: First impressions of ccl on Windows are good.
2014-07-23T08:23:30Z hitecnologys: Also, it may be out of sync with upstream as, IIRC, Windows port is done by different people.
2014-07-23T08:24:05Z H4ns: moore33: clozure cl on windows gets more love and maintenance.
2014-07-23T08:24:19Z moore33: H4ns: My impression too.
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2014-07-23T08:25:41Z moore33: Except that the windows installations instructions are not really great.
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2014-07-23T08:26:22Z moore33: But, it all works with slime from quicklisp! I am happy.
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2014-07-23T08:27:45Z H4ns: that makes me recognize that i have not used windows for many months now.  not sure whether that really is a good thing.  i used to actually know when recommending ccl as the go-to implementation on windows :)
2014-07-23T08:29:07Z joe-w-bimedina: moore33: I made a good install tutorial for sbcl on windows if you  need it
2014-07-23T08:29:49Z joe-w-bimedina: never mind, missed the clozure part
2014-07-23T08:29:51Z moore33: I hardly use Windows at all, but unfortunate graphics issues on my laptop (Nvidia Optimus fuckfuckfuck) have encouraged me to stay booted up in Linux more recently.
2014-07-23T08:30:23Z moore33: joe-w-bimedina:You should post it somewhere, but I think I can figure out the sbcl install :) Thanks anyway.
2014-07-23T08:30:31Z H4ns: moore33: "get a mac" :)
2014-07-23T08:31:11Z H4ns: and i would not have imagined that i'd ever become one of those "get a mac"-shitheads two years ago :D
2014-07-23T08:31:26Z hitecnologys: moore33: I have two GPUs and Optimus too and it seems to work fine with with proprietary drivers and some Xorg magic.
2014-07-23T08:31:28Z Adeon: bow to your apple overlords
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2014-07-23T08:31:52Z joe-w-bimedina: I did already, i missed that you were on clozure though...yea sbcl is easy:)
2014-07-23T08:32:03Z moore33: H4ns: My wife's got one that I sneak onto from time to time. I'm not impressed that Safari will take up all available memory and needs to be restarted every so often :)
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2014-07-23T08:33:16Z moore33: hitechnologys: Yes, I think the issues have probably been resolved now; I just need to get with the program. Also, testing with the Intel GPU is not a bad thing either.
2014-07-23T08:33:23Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I used to use OSX for several years and I can assure you it's not that bad. Excellent choice for those who wnat the power and flexibility of *NIX but also want usability and user-friendliness of Windows. However, it's not that good either but still better than Windows.
2014-07-23T08:33:24Z H4ns: moore33: safari.  i never use that.
2014-07-23T08:33:25Z moore33: Gets me out of my NVidia bubble.
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2014-07-23T08:33:46Z H4ns: hitecnologys: thank you.  i'm glad to hear it from the horse's mouth.
2014-07-23T08:36:04Z hitecnologys: moore33: Nvidia is more cooperative now than it used to be. I'm sure situation will get even better in a few years.
2014-07-23T08:36:39Z moore33: :)
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2014-07-23T08:42:02Z joe-w-bimedina: moore33: can I ask you real quick, why this isn't working: (typecase (array-element-type (make-array (list 3 3) :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))) ((unsigned-byte 8) ':uchar) (t 'not-listed))  I cant find any example of typecase being used with types in parentheses like (unsigned-byte 8)
2014-07-23T08:42:35Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: typecase works on the type on an object, not on a type
2014-07-23T08:42:47Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: why don't you look at the documentation?
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2014-07-23T08:43:09Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: do it.  it is instructive and helpful.
2014-07-23T08:43:18Z H4ns: clhs typecase
2014-07-23T08:43:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_tpcase.htm
2014-07-23T08:44:31Z Guthur: umm i left work more than an hour ago and you guys where talking about typecase
2014-07-23T08:44:39Z Guthur: ...still seems to be going on
2014-07-23T08:44:44Z H4ns: Guthur: it is a tragedy
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2014-07-23T08:45:56Z joe-w-bimedina: I just have read it more, instead assuming typecase was a case statement just for types,  thanks for explaining that to me H4ns :)
2014-07-23T08:46:04Z joe-w-bimedina: just should
2014-07-23T08:46:35Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: you are so clueless it is baffling.
2014-07-23T08:48:05Z joe-w-bimedina: Sorry, only been coding for about a year and a half
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2014-07-23T08:49:03Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: that is no excuse for not reading the documentation.
2014-07-23T08:49:32Z joe-w-bimedina: I'll make sure not to assume anymore:)
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2014-07-23T08:52:57Z moore33: joe-w-bimedina:I'm just curious: if you've only been programming for a year and a half, what led you to OpenCV in Common Lisp?
2014-07-23T08:54:37Z |3b|: hitecnologys: sbcl windows port is part of official sbcl tree, and maintained by sbcl devs
2014-07-23T08:55:06Z AeroNotix: hitecnologys: amd is even worse on linux
2014-07-23T08:55:07Z joe-w-bimedina: moore33: its cool, after getting GSLL installed on windows, I was going to ask my tutor to help me get cl-opencv installed on windows but after finding out Lisp had no good CV libraries I decided to create one,
2014-07-23T08:55:34Z H4ns: |3b|: sorry, i hereby retract my endorsement.  my days as a windows user are over.
2014-07-23T08:55:47Z |3b| would also pick CCL over SBCL on windows, unless i wanted to debug sbcl windows problems
2014-07-23T08:56:08Z |3b|: H4ns: which did you endorse?
2014-07-23T08:56:15Z H4ns: |3b|: ccl
2014-07-23T08:56:41Z |3b|: still a good choice as far as i know, not many sbcl devs actually use windows
2014-07-23T08:57:03Z moore33: |3b|: Hey, thanks for your comments on my glut troubles. I agree that the window is properly closed if the version test fails. The window stays open if something in the display-window :before method fails and I throw out to slime's top level. But that's now understandable if code in the around methods needs to run to clean up the window.
2014-07-23T08:57:05Z |3b|: so it is "supported", but not much more than things like netbsd ppc, or linux mips
2014-07-23T08:57:25Z |3b|: (which are all pretty much supported to the extent someone can find a machine and time, as far as i understand)
2014-07-23T08:57:27Z hitecnologys: |3b|: I see.
2014-07-23T08:57:49Z hitecnologys: AeroNotix: yes. AMD is much worse.
2014-07-23T08:58:16Z moore33: If you run sbcl on linux mips, you have the privilege of running some seriously old code :)
2014-07-23T08:58:20Z |3b|: moore33: yeah, making C windowing libs behave nicely with lisp non-local exits takes some work :(
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2014-07-23T08:59:36Z |3b|: theoretically the current code should work on mips, question is whether anyone has tried that in practice :)
2014-07-23T08:59:39Z H4ns: moore33: hey!  intel and amd suck and linux is insecure, i MUST absolutely run openbsd on this obsolete mips box and i happily shave yaks all day to maintain that combination!
2014-07-23T09:00:14Z moore33: H4ns: Right on :)
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2014-07-23T09:01:54Z |3b|: some people have good luck with windows sbcl, particularly if you can stay single threaded, but last time i tried it didn't work well for what i was doing
2014-07-23T09:02:09Z moore33: The CMUCL mips port and its spawn in SBCL must be some of the oldest machine-specific code in those systems that still works. I was looking at it 25 years ago!
2014-07-23T09:02:37Z fe[nl]ix: H4ns: why openbsd ?
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2014-07-23T09:02:54Z fe[nl]ix: pfsense switched to freebsd nowadays
2014-07-23T09:03:26Z H4ns: fe[nl]ix: freebsd is way too insecure.
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2014-07-23T09:03:32Z H4ns: fe[nl]ix: don't you realize that?
2014-07-23T09:03:36Z H4ns: it is obvious.
2014-07-23T09:03:56Z dim: well at least they are not using gcc
2014-07-23T09:04:14Z |3b|: moore33: i'm sure bits of SBCL's LOOP are still original MIT LOOP, "Portions Copyright (c) 1986..." :)
2014-07-23T09:04:31Z |3b|: not machine specific though i guess
2014-07-23T09:05:08Z |3b|: though a bunch of LOOP bugs were fixed recently, so maybe less old now
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2014-07-23T09:05:36Z fe[nl]ix: H4ns: your troll-fu is admirable
2014-07-23T09:05:55Z H4ns puts a star on his butt
2014-07-23T09:05:58Z JuanDaugherty: ja
2014-07-23T09:06:07Z moore33: |3b|: Parts of the reader came from Spice Lisp at one point, but I'm not sure if that's still true.
2014-07-23T09:06:46Z moore33: Written by GLS himself!
2014-07-23T09:06:54Z moore33: So I'm told.
2014-07-23T09:08:01Z |3b|: heh
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2014-07-23T09:43:15Z slyrus: H4ns: as for my desire to cxml-stp serialize just a node, not a whole xml document, it works, as long as you remember to manually close-ystream the ystream
2014-07-23T09:43:39Z H4ns: slyrus: is that a documented api?
2014-07-23T09:45:26Z slyrus: serialize is an exported gf, and there is a method for node, and close-ystream is exported.
2014-07-23T09:45:42Z H4ns: slyrus: nice.  i'll try to remember next time i have the issue.
2014-07-23T09:45:46Z H4ns: thanks!
2014-07-23T09:46:11Z slyrus: ah, but sink-ystream isn't exported :(
2014-07-23T09:46:18Z slyrus: so, no, I guess not
2014-07-23T09:46:37Z H4ns: not that there is a big chance of cxml changing so much that it would no longer work :)
2014-07-23T09:46:53Z H4ns: but then, having a documented way to generate fragments would be kind of generally useful.
2014-07-23T09:47:23Z slyrus: I agree. It would be nice to have a method that didn't require manually closing the ystream.
2014-07-23T09:47:30Z slyrus: e.g. serialize-node
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2014-07-23T10:38:41Z dim should never have began improving qmynd
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2014-07-23T11:02:26Z therik:  I lo ve li sp
2014-07-23T11:02:32Z pjb: good for you.
2014-07-23T11:02:42Z therik: macros aside, the clos is AWESOME
2014-07-23T11:02:54Z pjb: N'est ce pas.
2014-07-23T11:03:11Z therik: I always get into a situation where I'm thinking duh, I'm gonna have to write macro for this
2014-07-23T11:03:16Z therik: and then nah, clos can handle this
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2014-07-23T11:24:09Z wizzo: are there any gotchas i should know about backquotes? like is it okay for me to return `(foo ,(bar "baz")) instead of (list 'foo (bar "baz"))?
2014-07-23T11:25:01Z schjetne: wizzo: yes, those are equivalent
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2014-07-23T11:26:29Z wizzo: cool thank you
2014-07-23T11:26:58Z hitecnologys: No, they are not.
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2014-07-23T11:27:24Z PuercoPop: does doing an eq with an unexported symbol of another package always return false?
2014-07-23T11:28:04Z wizzo: hitecnologys: ?
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2014-07-23T11:28:42Z PuercoPop: one is a constant
2014-07-23T11:28:50Z hitecnologys: wizzo: LIST always returns fresh list while quoted construction may share memory space.
2014-07-23T11:28:59Z PuercoPop: so setf'ing is undefined behaviour
2014-07-23T11:29:11Z hitecnologys: wizzo: *never* do anything destructive on quoted expressions.
2014-07-23T11:29:43Z wizzo: is it very bad practice to do this or should i just be careful
2014-07-23T11:29:56Z hitecnologys: Be careful.
2014-07-23T11:30:19Z moore33: wizzo: The example you posted is safe, but can you say why? :)
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2014-07-23T11:31:35Z moore33: wizzo: If not, best stick with the explicit list.
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2014-07-23T11:31:52Z wizzo: it just looked a little nicer :P
2014-07-23T11:32:01Z wizzo: i think i'll just go with new list then
2014-07-23T11:33:27Z moore33: You might contemplate why `(foo ,(bar "baz")) is safe and `(,(bar "baz") foo) is not, then decide if you really want to deal with that level of arcana.
2014-07-23T11:34:45Z wizzo: oooh ok i see
2014-07-23T11:35:05Z wizzo: yes new lists definitely. that is sure to catch up on me
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2014-07-23T11:42:02Z Guthur: moore33: what's the reason?
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2014-07-23T11:43:47Z moore33: Guthur: `(foo ,(bar "baz")) must expand to something like (list 'foo (bar "baz")) i.e., a new top level list has to be constructed.
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2014-07-23T11:44:28Z moore33: `(,(bar "baz") foo) can expand to (list* (bar "baz") '(foo)).
2014-07-23T11:44:42Z moore33: With a constant tail.
2014-07-23T11:44:50Z moore33: That you can't modify.
2014-07-23T11:45:28Z Guthur: ok thanks
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2014-07-23T12:02:48Z ehu: anybody having issues accessing trac.common-lisp.net ? I've installed pretty strict access restrictions based on crawlers that I saw active.
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2014-07-23T12:11:55Z pjb: wizzo: the gotcha with backquote is that it's not up to you what parts are literal and what parts are freshly consed in the result, but up to the implementation of backquote.  So you must consider the result as literal, in general (it will probably be partly literal anyways).
2014-07-23T12:12:03Z Xach: ehu: works for me
2014-07-23T12:12:05Z pjb: wizzo: if you want a mutable sexp, you should build it yourself.
2014-07-23T12:12:55Z pjb: PuercoPop: No.  The un-exported symbol could be the symbol you have.
2014-07-23T12:13:01Z wizzo: i never intended for it to be mutable but i can totally see that biting me in the ass later
2014-07-23T12:14:05Z pjb: PuercoPop: I assume you define "another package" as a package that is not the package currently bound to CL:*PACKAGE*.  This package is only used at read time (via CL:INTERN).  You've not mentionned any reading or interning.
2014-07-23T12:15:10Z pjb: PuercoPop: now, if you mentionned reading, the non-exported symbol could be imported in the current package, so you could definitely read it.  And of course, you could give the other package as parameter to the INTERN (or FIND-SYMBOL) function.
2014-07-23T12:15:17Z pjb: So: No.
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2014-07-23T12:18:18Z therik: I have (loop for name being the hash-keys in (js-tests obj) do ... (lambda ... ) ), seems like that lambda doesn't close over that name variable
2014-07-23T12:18:29Z therik: it doesn't complain about non-existing, it is just null
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2014-07-23T12:18:55Z ehu: Xach: thanks. then the restrictions are loose enough to be practical.
2014-07-23T12:19:07Z ehu: 83 ip addresses blocked already
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2014-07-23T12:21:27Z therik: if I wrap that lambda in (let ((name name)) (lambda...)) it seems to work fine
2014-07-23T12:21:36Z therik: anyone got idea why this is happening?
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2014-07-23T12:23:04Z therik: aha - me stupid
2014-07-23T12:23:23Z therik: loop is reusing that variable
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2014-07-23T13:19:56Z Guthur: is anyone using Cells, seems an interesting library but I'm wondering if it's robust enough for projects
2014-07-23T13:20:24Z Guthur: not sure if it's being maintained anymore
2014-07-23T13:20:25Z Xach: Kenny Tilton is using it.
2014-07-23T13:20:38Z Guthur: does he still code CL
2014-07-23T13:20:38Z Xach: I think a fitting punishment for his sins would be to have a lot of users.
2014-07-23T13:21:06Z Guthur: wasn't sure if he had dropped out of the CL community, he seems to get a lot of hate
2014-07-23T13:21:25Z Guthur: can't commit if it's right or wrong because i'm not familar with the history
2014-07-23T13:21:37Z Xach: He is a playful fellow who makes fun of people who work on stuff I like.
2014-07-23T13:21:47Z Guthur: but Cells looks like something i was wanting to implement, actually more than i was going to
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2014-07-23T13:22:01Z Xach: I think of him as a sort of funny, cranky old man
2014-07-23T13:22:13Z Guthur: so i'm considering fighting my NIHism and using it
2014-07-23T13:22:23Z Guthur: hehe, maybe
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2014-07-23T13:23:05Z hitecnologys: Xach: who's this Kenny figure, if I may?
2014-07-23T13:23:27Z Xach: He is a person who was once very active on comp.lang.lisp
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2014-07-23T13:24:08Z Xach: He wrote a number of libraries like Cells and Cello and Celltk and some other stuff. And a website for learning algebra.
2014-07-23T13:24:24Z Guthur: hitecnologys: and he has a very interesting looking Functional Reactive Programming library called Cells
2014-07-23T13:24:49Z hitecnologys: I see.
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2014-07-23T13:26:03Z Guthur: only downside of me using it is that i don't get to play around with the MOP as I was hoping to
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2014-07-23T13:31:23Z Guthur: well the immmediate though superficial downside is that SBCL generates warning when first defining a cells model (class)
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2014-07-23T13:34:28Z Guthur: just looks like the accessor and shared initialization genfuns are defined before the class so it generates warnings
2014-07-23T13:34:35Z Guthur: tad annoying
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2014-07-23T13:36:45Z Guthur: umm easily fixed, do you think Kenny is likely to accept patches or suggestions?
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2014-07-23T13:37:45Z Xach: I can't even begin to speculate. If I were you, I'd try it and report back!
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2014-07-23T13:48:25Z H4ns: kenny is still using cells.  he'll probably be flattered if you ask him about it.
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2014-07-23T14:04:10Z Guthur: I definitely think it's an interesting lib, the fix is simple progn instead of a prog1, can imagine the defclass as the result form is meaningful
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2014-07-23T14:05:59Z Guthur: nearly every link on the cells cliki page is dead
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2014-07-23T14:07:14Z kristof: But the github is not!
2014-07-23T14:07:19Z kristof: That's all that matters
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2014-07-23T14:07:48Z Guthur: oh, did not realise there was a github
2014-07-23T14:12:34Z kristof: In the future, everything will be on a corporate git server with pretty markdown documents.
2014-07-23T14:12:36Z Guthur: umm i'm wondering if the error is actually Cells fault, reading the Spec for prog1 i can't see why SBCL would complain
2014-07-23T14:12:45Z moore33: Guthur: Don't know what you are doing, but there is also Gendl https://github.com/genworks/gendl with a storied pedigree.
2014-07-23T14:12:46Z kristof: Executive orders, health care plans, local news
2014-07-23T14:12:51Z Guthur: (prog1 (defclass bar () ()) (defmethod foo ((bar bar))))
2014-07-23T14:13:13Z Guthur: SBCL complains that "can't find type for specializer BAR"
2014-07-23T14:13:17Z moore33: Guthur: The defclass is not at top level.
2014-07-23T14:13:25Z kristof: ^
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2014-07-23T14:14:04Z kristof: Guthur: Question: try to eval-when that prog1
2014-07-23T14:14:22Z moore33 nods at kristof
2014-07-23T14:14:24Z Guthur: progn will to it
2014-07-23T14:14:31Z Guthur: because it's as a top level form
2014-07-23T14:14:44Z Guthur: which was the initial fix i put in place
2014-07-23T14:14:52Z H4ns: Guthur: it is prog1 for a reason
2014-07-23T14:14:54Z kristof: Try what I said
2014-07-23T14:15:11Z Guthur: H4ns: does it need to return the class object
2014-07-23T14:15:25Z H4ns: Guthur: it is crappy style to have a defclass wrapper macro that returns stuff other than the class defined
2014-07-23T14:15:38Z H4ns: Guthur: sometimes, one wants to finalize a class right away, for example.
2014-07-23T14:15:38Z Guthur: ah, ok
2014-07-23T14:15:51Z H4ns: Guthur: and on the repl, it is downright confusing.
2014-07-23T14:16:30Z Guthur: H4ns: fair enough
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2014-07-23T14:17:53Z phadthai: finalizing a class, rather than its object instances?
2014-07-23T14:18:14Z moore33: H4ns: Do you recommend ignoring the SBCL warning, or doing something like (progn (defclass foo ...) ... (find-class 'foo))?
2014-07-23T14:18:17Z H4ns: phadthai: before a class is finalized, no instances of it can be created.
2014-07-23T14:18:27Z phadthai: H4ns: oh I now understand, thanks
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2014-07-23T14:19:38Z H4ns: moore33: i will take that as a suggestion that i'd like, should i ever write a defclass wrapper macro again :)
2014-07-23T14:20:18Z moore33: H4ns: Thanks, I guess, though I'm sure which option you prefer :)
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2014-07-23T14:25:08Z phadthai: kristof: irt git, as long as it's small enough data, otherwise multiple repositories or submodules become necessary and it's not necessarily integrated
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2014-07-23T14:27:50Z phadthai: it also goes down nearly to the fs-level, when databases have higher level tools
2014-07-23T14:28:02Z phadthai: but I could have misunderstood your statement too
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2014-07-23T14:29:12Z Guthur: H4ns: are you not keen on defclass wrappers?
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2014-07-23T14:29:49Z H4ns: Guthur: not really.  at least not the kind that tries to "simplify" defclass
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2014-07-23T14:30:34Z H4ns: Guthur: defclass is inherently un-dry, and that is kind of a design feature, not something that is meant to be removed by mindless wrappers that make its power inaccessible.
2014-07-23T14:31:33Z Guthur: ah sure
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2014-07-23T14:32:06Z Guthur: Cells defmodel seems reasonable sensible in that regard, from cursory glance
2014-07-23T14:32:59Z Guthur: ie. essentially reflecting the standard defclass
2014-07-23T14:33:10Z H4ns: Guthur: i got no beef with such wrappers
2014-07-23T14:34:18Z wizzo: when you use :use in a defpackage are you just saying those packages are accessible or is it actually pulling them into the same namespace?
2014-07-23T14:34:46Z phadthai: it will inherit those symbols into the same namespace, unless shadowed, yes
2014-07-23T14:35:03Z H4ns: wizzo: "pulling them into" is not a very precise definition.
2014-07-23T14:35:12Z H4ns: wizzo: what is it that you really need to know?
2014-07-23T14:35:39Z dlowe: Now that local package nicknames are supported in sbcl, the only thing I :use now is CL
2014-07-23T14:35:53Z dlowe: everything else gets a nice short nickname
2014-07-23T14:36:16Z wizzo: in my package i am referring to other package functions like foo:bar
2014-07-23T14:36:21Z Guthur: dlowe: is that standard?
2014-07-23T14:36:26Z wizzo: but i am also putting :use foo in the defapackage
2014-07-23T14:36:31Z H4ns: wizzo: but why?
2014-07-23T14:36:44Z dlowe: Guthur: local package nicknames? Nope.
2014-07-23T14:36:56Z wizzo: H4ns: i just thought that's how it worked
2014-07-23T14:36:56Z H4ns: wizzo: you don't need to :use a package if you qualify its symbols.
2014-07-23T14:37:16Z wizzo: ok cool
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2014-07-23T14:37:21Z H4ns: wizzo: no.  all exported symbols of all packages are available from any other package in their qualified, single-colon form.
2014-07-23T14:37:21Z Guthur: dlowe: yeah it sounded new to me, hehe
2014-07-23T14:37:28Z ehu: heh. 149 IPs blocked.
2014-07-23T14:37:33Z dlowe: It should be a CDR, but no one has written one
2014-07-23T14:37:50Z wizzo: yeh that makes sense now
2014-07-23T14:37:52Z wizzo: oops
2014-07-23T14:38:02Z Guthur: dlowe: no totally surprised there
2014-07-23T14:38:06Z Guthur: not*\
2014-07-23T14:38:26Z dlowe: I guess not. It'd be awesome if the other implementations would add it, though
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2014-07-23T15:12:15Z qbit: anyone know if you can do something like this with hunchentoot: (hunchentoot:create-regex-dispatcher "^/awesome/(.*)" 'fun-that-gets-stuff-after-awesome) ?
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2014-07-23T15:12:36Z qbit: so that fun-that-gets-stuff-after-awesome will receive the matched bit from "^/awesome/(.*)"
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2014-07-23T15:13:37Z H4ns: qbit: the documentation does not mention that your handler is called with the match results or parts of it.
2014-07-23T15:13:54Z H4ns: qbit: so i'd assume that you'll have to parse the url again.
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2014-07-23T15:15:06Z qbit: mk
2014-07-23T15:15:06Z H4ns: qbit: if you're looking for a routing system, maybe restas is for you
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2014-07-23T15:15:39Z qbit: yeah, i actually started with restas - but fell back to hunchentoo while "debugging"
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2014-07-23T15:16:08Z H4ns: it would be nice if hunchentoot had better routing facilities
2014-07-23T15:16:17Z H4ns: and a more declarative configuration scheme.
2014-07-23T15:16:20Z H4ns: *sigh*
2014-07-23T15:16:26Z qbit: heh
2014-07-23T15:16:42Z H4ns: and ring-like middleware
2014-07-23T15:16:47Z H4ns: and and and
2014-07-23T15:17:38Z qbit: :P
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2014-07-23T15:21:08Z JuanDaugherty: ring-like?
2014-07-23T15:21:40Z H4ns: ring is a web server middleware specification for clojure
2014-07-23T15:22:16Z JuanDaugherty: is clojure gaining acceptance in cl culture now?
2014-07-23T15:22:28Z AeroNotix: I hope so
2014-07-23T15:22:37Z JuanDaugherty: it's seemed just yesterday it was reviled
2014-07-23T15:22:40Z AeroNotix: I one day envision a lisp which is sbcl+clojure
2014-07-23T15:22:41Z H4ns: node has something similar.  effectively, functionality can be added to web servers through middlewares, which are automatically called during request processing.
2014-07-23T15:22:44Z JuanDaugherty: justly I thought
2014-07-23T15:23:09Z JuanDaugherty: that is if it's still lisp implemented on the jvm
2014-07-23T15:23:09Z H4ns: clojure is clojure and lisp is lisp.  some people use both, and good ideas are in many areas.  there will be no unification.
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2014-07-23T15:23:26Z AeroNotix: H4ns: I'd still like some of the good ideas available in CL by default.
2014-07-23T15:23:30Z H4ns: i mentioned clojure because ring is specified in clojure.
2014-07-23T15:23:38Z pjb: until clojure is implemented as a CL DSL and it's ludicruous syntax is removed.
2014-07-23T15:23:48Z H4ns: AeroNotix: it will not happen.
2014-07-23T15:23:53Z AeroNotix: pjb: the syntax is the killer feature for me :)
2014-07-23T15:24:14Z JuanDaugherty: i hoped it was sum nibelungen like generality
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2014-07-23T15:27:05Z JuanDaugherty: it's like the damn soviet union of lisp
2014-07-23T15:27:20Z JuanDaugherty: prolly be around a couple of generations
2014-07-23T15:27:46Z Denommus: mixing Clojure and CL would be like mixing Haskell and ML. It makes no damn sense
2014-07-23T15:27:48Z JuanDaugherty: except it originated in a counterrevolution
2014-07-23T15:28:03Z H4ns: what have i DONE?
2014-07-23T15:28:06Z AeroNotix: JuanDaugherty: what's the UUSER of Lisp?
2014-07-23T15:28:11Z AeroNotix: USSR*
2014-07-23T15:28:30Z JuanDaugherty: clo damn jure
2014-07-23T15:28:37Z dim: H4ns: I'm using simple-routes for routing, see https://github.com/dimitri/pginstall/blob/master/lib/simple-routes.lisp and https://github.com/dimitri/pginstall/blob/master/src/server/server.lisp
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2014-07-23T15:28:50Z dim: the lib wouldn't load with QL and I didn't send patches this time
2014-07-23T15:28:55Z H4ns: dim: qbit was asking.
2014-07-23T15:29:05Z dim: also I've fixed it to be able to load several apps in //
2014-07-23T15:29:09Z JuanDaugherty: there's lisp web pkgs with routes pretty sure
2014-07-23T15:29:13Z dim: oh, qbit, simple-routes is good
2014-07-23T15:29:39Z dim: H4ns: sorry, though your "it would be nice if" was calling for options
2014-07-23T15:30:43Z H4ns: dim: i was more calling for people stepping up to say "i'll integrate simple-routes and write docs for it".  instead a got remarks about the soviet union and how clojure would be like it.
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2014-07-23T15:30:47Z H4ns: :D
2014-07-23T15:30:50Z qbit: dim: thanks :D
2014-07-23T15:30:50Z JuanDaugherty: ususally a dummy thing has a dummy name, e.g. "cold fusion". Ones aesthetics on names are well served in these cases.
2014-07-23T15:30:56Z H4ns: you get what you pay for, i guess.
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2014-07-23T15:32:16Z dim: H4ns: I guess you/we should ask at https://github.com/vancan1ty/simple-routes
2014-07-23T15:32:26Z Guthur: H4ns: do you think such things as routing should be built into hunchentoot, or rather a seperate library that just so happens to easily integrated with hunchentoot
2014-07-23T15:32:32Z Guthur: ...with documentation
2014-07-23T15:32:39Z Guthur: not so sure if the last point is possible
2014-07-23T15:32:50Z Guthur: it seldom seems to happen at least
2014-07-23T15:32:56Z JuanDaugherty: if they are reviled maybe they'll all be driven to cl the way the soviets were to capitalism
2014-07-23T15:33:11Z H4ns: i think hunchentoot should have routing built in.
2014-07-23T15:33:20Z Denommus: I don't think Clojure is a bad language, but it is very different from CL
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2014-07-23T15:33:23Z JuanDaugherty: ht is just pieces parts
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2014-07-23T15:33:35Z Denommus: H4ns: well, RESTAS already exist
2014-07-23T15:33:41Z JuanDaugherty: it ain't like cl-http or whatever
2014-07-23T15:33:51Z H4ns: Denommus: but it is not built in.
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2014-07-23T15:33:58Z JuanDaugherty: yeah forgot I was using restas
2014-07-23T15:34:04Z JuanDaugherty: which does have routes
2014-07-23T15:34:19Z JuanDaugherty: and is built on ht
2014-07-23T15:34:36Z JuanDaugherty: doesn't weblocks too?
2014-07-23T15:34:40Z Denommus: H4ns: why would that matter? I think Hunchentoot must be flexible enough to allow more than one routing library, and that's how it works now
2014-07-23T15:34:47Z Guthur: H4ns: but would such major work be accepted into hunchentoot
2014-07-23T15:35:30Z Guthur: seems like the maintainer of hunchentoot would need to be involved to ensure acceptable integration
2014-07-23T15:35:33Z H4ns: Denommus: indeed.  i'd like more functionality in the basic package.
2014-07-23T15:35:57Z H4ns: Guthur: i am the maintainer.  a routing system would be accepted if its design was to my liking and if the documentation was complete.
2014-07-23T15:36:05Z Denommus: H4ns: having more abstractions to build your own library would certainly be interesting
2014-07-23T15:36:07Z H4ns: Guthur: i'm not an entirely unreasonable person.
2014-07-23T15:36:17Z H4ns: Denommus: that is what i meant with ring-like.
2014-07-23T15:36:23Z Guthur: H4ns: yeah, i know, not entirely
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2014-07-23T15:36:28Z Denommus: H4ns: ah
2014-07-23T15:36:47Z Guthur: I thought you were they maintainer, just didn't want to be presumptious
2014-07-23T15:36:56Z Guthur: they/the
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2014-07-23T15:39:03Z hitecnologys: If I want to set two lexical variables' values at once, what should I use: MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND or DESTRUCTURING-VALUE-BIND? My question may not be very clear, so that's approximately what I'm doing now: (destructuring-bind (foo bar) (case baz (:foo (list 1 2)) (:bar (list 3 4))) (stuff)).
2014-07-23T15:39:29Z H4ns: hitecnologys: destructuring-bind is fine.
2014-07-23T15:39:48Z hitecnologys: H4ns: OK, thanks for help.
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2014-07-23T15:41:45Z moore33: multiple-value-bind might be minimally more efficient.
2014-07-23T15:42:44Z moore33: But then, I like (setf (values ...)) too.
2014-07-23T15:42:52Z hitecnologys: moore33: why? I thought D-B is faster.
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2014-07-23T15:43:24Z H4ns: "faster", does that really matter?
2014-07-23T15:43:35Z hitecnologys: Nope, I'm just wondering.
2014-07-23T15:43:39Z H4ns: for the destructuring-bind to work, you need to cons up a list
2014-07-23T15:44:00Z H4ns: multiple-value-bind will work off the stack.  but in the end, it is up to the compiler to determine the performance.
2014-07-23T15:44:03Z moore33: hitecnologys: Assuming that the compiler isn't optimizing it, you need to create a list somewhere and cdr down it for destructuring-bind.
2014-07-23T15:44:16Z hitecnologys: Ah, I see.
2014-07-23T15:44:26Z moore33: Or, in the m-v-b case, the values might be set directly in registers.
2014-07-23T15:44:42Z H4ns: moore33: (setf (values ...) is nice and i forget it always, but it requires the variables to be present already
2014-07-23T15:44:57Z moore33: H4ns: Yes, it's a slightly different usage.
2014-07-23T15:45:10Z moore33: But I dig multiple values generally.
2014-07-23T15:46:28Z hitecnologys: Can you point me to piece of CLHS that describes (SETF VALUES)?
2014-07-23T15:46:43Z moore33: clhs values
2014-07-23T15:46:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_values.htm
2014-07-23T15:46:54Z hitecnologys: Oh, didn't thought of that.
2014-07-23T15:46:58Z hitecnologys: Thanks.
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2014-07-23T15:48:09Z moore33: It's part of the magic of setf that one can manipulate places that are multiple values.
2014-07-23T15:50:56Z kristof: Guthur: caveman2 does routing
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2014-07-23T15:52:14Z Guthur: kristof: I think qbit was actually looking for the routing, i just joined the discussion
2014-07-23T15:52:21Z qbit: ^
2014-07-23T15:52:37Z qbit: simple-routes looks like it does exactly what I need
2014-07-23T15:52:42Z Guthur: kristof: though it looks interesting none the less
2014-07-23T15:52:43Z qbit: just wish it was in quicklisp :D
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2014-07-23T16:02:15Z dim: last I tried it didn't load when cloned into ~/quicklisp/local-projects, and I wasn't in a mood to fix and send a patch, so I just "vendored" it in
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2014-07-23T16:02:31Z dim: qbit: by all means, if you can patch it to be QL ready, that would be awesome
2014-07-23T16:03:18Z H4ns: see, that's the downside of making basic functionality external to hunchentoot.
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2014-07-23T16:09:26Z qbit: til about local-projects :D
2014-07-23T16:09:45Z JuanDaugherty: lisp like the pieces parts, it's an essential and very positive part of the culture
2014-07-23T16:09:50Z JuanDaugherty: *likes
2014-07-23T16:09:57Z JuanDaugherty: be clueful
2014-07-23T16:10:20Z Xach dies of irony asphyxiation
2014-07-23T16:10:24Z JuanDaugherty: statt d00f
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2014-07-23T16:18:28Z qbit: dim: [Condition of type QUICKLISP-CLIENT:SYSTEM-NOT-FOUND] is what you were getting with it in local-projects?
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2014-07-23T16:20:58Z dim: I don't remember the details, sorry
2014-07-23T16:21:34Z Xach: The problem with that project is that its system file name does not match the system name.
2014-07-23T16:21:48Z Xach: Normally you would have a file named project.asd that defines a system named "project".
2014-07-23T16:22:01Z Xach: In this case simpleroutes-build.asd defines a system named "simple-routes" (and others)
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2014-07-23T16:24:43Z qbit: oh yeah - rename worked
2014-07-23T16:25:05Z qbit: interesting - the simpleroutes-build.asd file was ref'd in the system-index.txt file
2014-07-23T16:25:31Z qbit: doesn't seem to be loading it correctly tho
2014-07-23T16:27:01Z Vivitron: Ah, I also had to touch local-projects after renaming the asd
2014-07-23T16:27:26Z Xach: You can delete the system-index.txt file to rebuild it, or use (ql:register-local-projects)
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2014-07-23T16:30:11Z kristof: qbit: caveman2 is on quicklisp
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2014-07-23T16:32:21Z kristof: qbit: (defroute "/:arg" (&key arg) ...) lets you use "arg" as it appears in the route
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2014-07-23T16:36:20Z qbit: kristof: right on
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2014-07-23T16:48:44Z Poenikatu: What are "axis-aligned rectangles"? (mentioned in the CLIM spec)
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2014-07-23T17:02:33Z phadthai: Poenikatu: I'm not sure as I don't really know clim terminology, but it might mean rectangles at the same angle
2014-07-23T17:03:02Z Poenikatu: phadthai, Thanks. Now I need to understand your response! :-(
2014-07-23T17:03:24Z phadthai: in the same orientation, i.e. not rotated
2014-07-23T17:03:53Z Poenikatu: phadthai, Aha! Yes, probably that.
2014-07-23T17:05:05Z flip214 quit (Quit: 'Bye.)
2014-07-23T17:07:22Z kristof: Oh, SBCL is actively developed for ARM!
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2014-07-23T17:10:13Z poseidons-minion: heavily armed
2014-07-23T17:10:15Z pjb: Why do you mean by "actively developed"?  Do you mean there's a sbcl developer's computer that's currently processing a key-down event targetting a buffer containing a sbcl source file?
2014-07-23T17:10:49Z pjb: So it's actively developed only 5 times a second, for a seconds each minutes?
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2014-07-23T17:13:24Z jasom: I'm about to give up getting my patches into ltk
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2014-07-23T17:14:00Z jasom: They fix things like this: http://paste.lisp.org/+32IC
2014-07-23T17:15:25Z poseidons-minion: when a lisp program gets big and full of oh 64g of data say in ram, you build functions to "query" the data, but at that point, how do you have say 600 clients query the image?
2014-07-23T17:15:54Z pjb: Using smarts.
2014-07-23T17:15:58Z dim: pjb: actively developed usually means that the team cares more about it than the clisp team does
2014-07-23T17:16:06Z pjb: :-)
2014-07-23T17:16:24Z jasom: poseidons-minion: I think ITA did a presentation about how they handled something similar
2014-07-23T17:16:42Z pjb: Well, if you have a lot of RAM, you may not care compacting the data thru FFI.
2014-07-23T17:17:08Z pjb: AFAICS, the question is more about multiple simultaneous read accesses.
2014-07-23T17:17:13Z jasom: oh
2014-07-23T17:17:46Z jasom: if you're not writing to it at all, then i don't see what the question is.
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2014-07-23T17:18:19Z jasom: for large numbers of simultaneous clients, you may need to go the non-blocking route, and there's at least 3 libraries I can think of for that
2014-07-23T17:19:12Z poseidons-minion: so whats to stop someone from doing a webapp that essenatilly keeps stuff in ram, and lets muultiple requests hit the in memory data, skipping a sql db?
2014-07-23T17:19:25Z jasom: poseidons-minion: nothing
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2014-07-23T17:19:34Z poseidons-minion: and each 5min say writing any update diffs to disk
2014-07-23T17:19:54Z jasom: poseidons-minion: well the issue with that is that eventually you have a gigantic update log that takes forever to load on restart
2014-07-23T17:20:01Z jasom: poseidons-minion: which is usually solved by snapshotting
2014-07-23T17:20:03Z phadthai: the only issue is that if the application becomes complex you'll end up rewriting what most database systems have
2014-07-23T17:20:19Z jasom: and then you end up greenspunning a transactional db
2014-07-23T17:20:24Z poseidons-minion: hm
2014-07-23T17:20:47Z poseidons-minion: I notice anardb is something like this
2014-07-23T17:21:00Z poseidons-minion: I just dont get oo programming yet
2014-07-23T17:21:02Z jasom: "ah, now I need transactions" "ah now I need replication" "ah now I need..."
2014-07-23T17:21:24Z Poenikatu: phadthai, Having reached the details of the rectangle protocol, I now understand that an axis-aligned rectangle is one whose sides are parallel to the x and y axes.
2014-07-23T17:21:28Z jasom: honestly though, for toy programs, sql is a massive overkill.
2014-07-23T17:21:42Z phadthai: Poenikatu: ok, nice
2014-07-23T17:22:21Z nyef: SQL may be massive overkill for toy problems, but for a number of problems it becomes very convenient very quickly, so either starting from SQL or having a good cut-over plan can be helpful.
2014-07-23T17:22:53Z jasom: and for more serious programs you probably need only ~10% of what it offers, but it's still faster and more reliable to use a tested DB than to implement that 10% yourself
2014-07-23T17:22:54Z poseidons-minion: what about a prologgy approach?
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2014-07-23T17:36:08Z kristof: pjb: I specifically meant that the latest version of SBCL is on ARM, consistently. It's not a second class platform
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2014-07-23T17:37:25Z kristof: poseidons-minion: what you just described is datomic
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2014-07-23T18:32:59Z rpg: Does anyone have examples of using JFIELD in ABCL to root around in Java objects? Are there limits on what fields can be fetched this way?
2014-07-23T18:33:22Z rpg: I'm getting lots of no such field errors, and not finding many examples except for static fields.
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2014-07-23T18:35:16Z ehu: rpg: yes, there are limits to what fields you can access.
2014-07-23T18:35:32Z ehu: rpg: there are checks on accessibility by java.
2014-07-23T18:35:35Z rpg: Only public? Or something else?
2014-07-23T18:35:44Z ehu: just the public ones, yes.
2014-07-23T18:35:54Z rpg: I'm using ABCL as a sort of Java debugger/code tour tool.
2014-07-23T18:35:55Z kristof: c++ has a concept of friends, though.
2014-07-23T18:36:04Z ehu: I'm aware of a trick being played by JSS,
2014-07-23T18:36:18Z ehu: which allow introspection of any field, I think.
2014-07-23T18:36:26Z rpg: ehu: Is there any way to punch through this restriction? I note that somehow the inspector can show me things I am not allowed to reach with JFIELD.
2014-07-23T18:36:44Z ehu: however, I *think* that makes them generally pulbic.
2014-07-23T18:36:46Z ehu: public.
2014-07-23T18:37:13Z rpg: JSS?
2014-07-23T18:37:18Z ehu: I've forgotten what the name of the call/boolean is.
2014-07-23T18:37:42Z ehu: JSS is a library to use on top of ABCL, which gives better Java integration (ie more dynamic)
2014-07-23T18:38:24Z rpg: Oho!
2014-07-23T18:38:30Z rpg: I will go look for JSS, thanks!
2014-07-23T18:40:18Z ehu: JSS is in abcl's contribs.
2014-07-23T18:40:24Z ehu: (require 'abcl-contrib)
2014-07-23T18:40:28Z ehu: (require 'jss)
2014-07-23T18:40:31Z ehu: should do it.
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2014-07-23T18:43:26Z rpg: The former (require 'abcl-contrib) did it.  (require 'jss) did not.
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2014-07-23T18:43:53Z rpg: I see that get-java-field does indeed use getDeclaredFields, and then set fields as accessible.
2014-07-23T18:44:43Z rpg: Oh, I see. they cascade.
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2014-07-23T18:53:50Z rpg: Hm. Think I found a minor bug....
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2014-07-23T19:02:19Z rpg: No setAccessible method....
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2014-07-23T19:22:12Z bobbysmith007: Is there a reason that things which were previously errors keep becoming serious-conditions in sbcl?  Just found that 'SB-DI:NO-DEBUG-BLOCKS stopped being an error at some recent version, so my ignore-errors stopped working.   A month or two ago I ran into timeouts now being serious-conditions instead of errors.  I get that the spec allows such things, but it makes ignore-errors be something of a lie.
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2014-07-23T19:23:58Z phadthai: alternatively you also could use a custom *debugger-hook* where needed, which is also part of the standard
2014-07-23T19:24:11Z phadthai: it might not always be a good alternative of course
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2014-07-23T19:25:21Z phadthai: I can't answer about the sbcl specifics though, others may, when they're around
2014-07-23T19:26:59Z bobbysmith007: Yeah, implementation changes that break decades old code are frustrating.  On the other hand If I knew what the compelling reason was for these changes though, its much easier to stomach
2014-07-23T19:27:59Z phadthai: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143224 example of such macro
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2014-07-23T19:32:15Z phadthai: I guess that you could also have an alternative ignore-conditions matching on t rather than error
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2014-07-23T19:32:18Z bobbysmith007: phadthai: I appreciate... changing all my ignore-errors to the equivalent (handler-case  ... (serious-condition ())) has sufficed... just a frustrating turn of affairs because this code has been working in ucw since there was a uce.
2014-07-23T19:32:37Z bobbysmith007: err since there was a ucw
2014-07-23T19:32:38Z phadthai: (with handler-case)
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2014-07-23T19:35:20Z Xach: bobbysmith007: I don't know anything about it, but a quick annotation doesn't seem to show any recent changes, not since 2001 or so. i wonder what's up.
2014-07-23T19:35:55Z bobbysmith007: Xach: alright... thats interesting thanks for taking the time to look
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2014-07-23T19:39:42Z Ober: hi on4278
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2014-07-23T19:42:58Z bobbysmith007: also ignore-errors has not changed in a similar timeframe (expectedly)
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2014-07-23T19:54:40Z bobbysmith007: seemingly nothing has changed, so I guess I have to go with the obvious explanation of that error never having been signaled before today after a decade of use.  Though I am using a different version of UCW, the code is in all of them and can be seen: https://github.com/erikg/ucw-core/blob/master/src/rerl/request-loop-error.lisp#L27 if anyone has any insight.  A coworker suggests perhaps someone setting debug very low somewhere new... (tho
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2014-07-23T19:58:15Z Xach: bobbysmith007: cut off at (tho
2014-07-23T19:59:19Z bobbysmith007: (though the failing source locations seem to come from sbcl internal code) eg: ((SB-PCL::EMF (SETF DATA))
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2014-07-23T20:02:09Z Bike: that's an effective method function, it's an okay function name for sbcl.
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2014-07-23T20:07:17Z names: Vivitron segv- amadsen didi ehu wheelsucker stanislav oleo juanlas mobius Desheng__ jchochli jdoolin LiamH slyrus QwertyDragon kushal bambams_ bit` lduros Karl_Dscc GuilOooo vaporatorius dlowe schoppenhauer mr-foobar cpape urandom__ ski sykopomp Mon_Ouie MrWoohoo edgar-rft calculon ben__ theos joe-w-bimedina leo2007 angavrilov mishoo_ Gooder ggole scharan Jesin ahungry yacks phserr eazar001 Tristam axion s_e Denommus BlastHardcheese AntiSpamMeta bcoburn`
2014-07-23T20:07:17Z names: zeitue dkordic snits farhaven JokerDoom nand1 seabot vlnx optikalmouse eeezkil Kruppe keen_ cmatei c3w tali713 tessier eee-blt Praise redline6561 mdallastella The_third_man nicdev arbscht housel Reihar FracV dseagrav faheem dim jsnell johs the8thbit fridim_ v0|d otwieracz antoszka schjetne zarul alchemis7 nightfly Guthur` joneshf araujo aeth arrdem stokachu wormphlegm solidus_ yeltzooo cibs enfors Nshag kirin` c74d3 yroeht heddwch Natch enn jdz _d3f
2014-07-23T20:07:17Z names: necronian Soft jrm fe[nl]ix Blkt srcerer ``Erik spockokt ramus skrue pjb PuercoPop _5kg pavlicek Longlius phadthai zymurgy zbigniew anunnaki Bike eisenbruen anunnaki_ zacts blakbunnie27 Subfusc Posterdati bjorkintosh froggey alexherbo2 Oddity newcup brown` cyphase ivan\ dRbiG tvaalen hugod stopbit joast em K1rk abbe luis aoh kutsuya asedeno Khisanth vhost- ferada copec Kabaka TristamWrk draculus galdor lonjil j0ni jtz eagleflo ineiros_ l3thal gluegadget
2014-07-23T20:07:17Z names: drdo Neptu Tordek sellout brucem InvalidCo bege milosn acieroid WeirdEnthusiast finnrobi dan64 p_l|backup hypno_ aksatac_ loke brandonz_ girrig beppu ft byte48 Okasu lupine mathrick benny replcated wchun gregburd ThePhoeron guaqua oGMo bhyde Adeon sfa_ mathrick_ cross daimrod dfox __main__ Krystof Amaan rvchangue msosa troydm tkd_ z0d tomaw yano Colleen__ `matija gensym decent mtd qbit nitro_idiot endou__ sklr aerique_ mal_ spacebat htmzr pchrist
2014-07-23T20:07:17Z names: AeroNotix joga marsbot ggherdov d4gg4d___ nihilatus ered ozzloy freiksenet mikaelj nisstyre joshe Borbus peccu djinni` |3b| sbryant Neet Anarch H4ns gko splittist rvirding superjudge_ victor_lowther ircbrowse foom renard_ eak rotty ChibaPet fmu cpt_nemo xristos oconnore jayne hyoyoung_ lemoinem rk[1] mood j_king xenophon justinmcp sigjuice_ cmbntr_ les Corey ura ecraven gabot MightyJoe Zhivago shwouchk inklesspen theBlackDragon cosmicexplorer jasom
2014-07-23T20:07:17Z names: nightshade427 ck_ Xach kyl setheus GGMethos diginet specbot minion eli rtoym tkd vsync_ Fade kbtr_ Ober samebchase _death sshirokov paddymahoney madnificent jchochl__ quasisane yauz SHODAN p_l clop felipe nowhere_man_ pillton zz_karupa uzo tbarletz jackdaniel ianmcorvidae gz_ nimiux peterhil effy njsg Mandus hzp sjl _tca honkfestival zxq9 bobbysmith007 felideon devn phf codeburg eMBee micro` whartung TheMoonMaster cods pok_ clog
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2014-07-23T20:17:08Z Fare: OK, anything particular you'd like see demonstrated when using CL as a scripting language? What do you think could blow some minds?
2014-07-23T20:18:01Z jaimef: Fare newlisp perhaps?
2014-07-23T20:18:09Z jaimef: oh nvm misread
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2014-07-23T20:18:56Z Fare: ok, does newlisp do anything mind-blowing?
2014-07-23T20:19:28Z inklesspen: iirc the mindblowing thing it does is not be a lisp
2014-07-23T20:19:38Z poseidons-minion: using clisp to install 4 packages on 40 boxes using ssh keys and then reporting on all boxes for compliance and having the 4 packages installed, and concurrent, not 1 by 1
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2014-07-23T20:20:16Z poseidons-minion: maybe a web panel to replace nagios based on such
2014-07-23T20:23:15Z Fare: poseidons-minion, I can do that, though the concurrency story is a bit messy — using lparallel
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2014-07-23T20:25:14Z poseidons-minion: well I am willing to throw away bash and tcl if you can make lisp let me do my unix
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2014-07-23T20:26:16Z dlowe: The piping story is messy too
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2014-07-23T20:31:19Z poseidons-minion: computers are hard
2014-07-23T20:31:30Z Fare: poseidons-minion, it can.
2014-07-23T20:32:04Z Fare: my current piping story is "if it's a pipe, generate a pipe for /bin/sh"
2014-07-23T20:32:05Z poseidons-minion: I am willing to give up all unix stuff and do things the lisp way as long as a nice website interface is the result and the performance doesnt stink too bad
2014-07-23T20:32:22Z poseidons-minion: unix shmoonix
2014-07-23T20:33:02Z Fare: performance is quite acceptable -- if you can afford the overhead of forking and execing subprocesses, Lisp has only a small overhead
2014-07-23T20:33:15Z Fare: are you going to ILC 2014 in Montreal?
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2014-07-23T20:34:13Z dlowe: a small cpu overhaed
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2014-07-23T20:34:43Z poseidons-minion: I am open to doing things better and Im over40!
2014-07-23T20:34:45Z poseidons-minion: amazing eh
2014-07-23T20:34:53Z phadthai: if every subsystem was lisp, you'd not need the conventional bytes pipes abstraction, a better structured system would work
2014-07-23T20:35:21Z poseidons-minion: perhaps it is a mistake to try and emulate unix in lisp
2014-07-23T20:35:25Z poseidons-minion: let lisp be lisp
2014-07-23T20:35:40Z poseidons-minion: as long as a nice interface is presented no one cares
2014-07-23T20:35:59Z poseidons-minion: and knowing lisp fewer lines of code and fewer system resources will be used
2014-07-23T20:36:08Z dlowe: until someone starts making lisp machines again, there will be an uneasy border.
2014-07-23T20:36:28Z phadthai: I agree
2014-07-23T20:36:37Z poseidons-minion: as long as lisp stays on top of the concurrency n multi core stuff, everything will run fast right?
2014-07-23T20:36:52Z dlowe: depends on if your code is fast.
2014-07-23T20:37:01Z poseidons-minion: csp seems to be coming to lisp and thats the ultimate sofar right?
2014-07-23T20:37:12Z phadthai: as for a lispos, I think that a less unrealistic system would be borrowing an existing C kernel to not have to care about device drivers, but with a custom init+userland
2014-07-23T20:37:28Z dlowe: There's no "ultimate" - just another set of engineering tradeoffs
2014-07-23T20:37:32Z phadthai: existing opensource projects already struggle for hardware support
2014-07-23T20:38:10Z poseidons-minion: freebsd is nice, same with netbsd, then lisp for user interface
2014-07-23T20:38:23Z phadthai: yes
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2014-07-23T20:40:22Z phadthai: and since a specific implementation would be chosen, ffi would be low level and very integrated with the libc (as necessary using special abstractions for fast data transfer to hardware devices, a bus-type interface)
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2014-07-23T20:43:34Z phadthai: then "someone" would have to write or integrate a unified fs+ui so all levels of the system can be handled by a main debugger/gui; integrate an editor as part of that... there's still an aweful lot of work to be done even if borrowing a kernel
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2014-07-23T20:44:27Z phadthai: multiuser lisp images would also be an interesting concept for non-unix multiuser
2014-07-23T20:44:38Z ehu: 300 blocked ips
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2014-07-23T20:47:11Z phadthai: end-of-pipedreaming-session
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2014-07-23T20:48:56Z kristof: phadthai: if every subsystem were written in lisp, you wouldn't need a bytestream. ...unless you wanted to write something in a language other than lisp.
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2014-07-23T20:51:18Z phadthai: kristof: exactly
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2014-07-23T20:53:20Z kristof: phadthai: sounds like a bum deal to me. You avoid the engineering problem of independently constructed intercommunicating parts by... declaring a lingua franca.
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2014-07-23T20:53:42Z phadthai: ah, to the kernel you mean?  Yes that'd be a special case then
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2014-07-23T20:54:04Z kristof: ?
2014-07-23T20:54:10Z phadthai: but between all lisp components object references would work fine
2014-07-23T20:54:45Z kristof: phadthai: between all python components object references work fine... running on the same pythin interpreter.
2014-07-23T20:54:47Z phadthai: (and lists/streams of them)
2014-07-23T20:55:50Z kristof: I'm just not seeing the bene
2014-07-23T20:55:54Z kristof: *benefit.
2014-07-23T20:56:19Z phadthai: yes, because of the unix process/vmspace, and lack of python-kernel integration
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2014-07-23T20:57:09Z phadthai: hmm I'm not sure if we're talking of two different things at once heh, but it's not impossible
2014-07-23T20:57:14Z kristof: phadthai: What you're proposing is exactly the same thing. All programs would run under the same lisp image.
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2014-07-23T21:00:06Z phadthai: ah yes, you're right, about the single image
2014-07-23T21:00:47Z kristof: So that's fine for lisp code, but not fine for second class languages.
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2014-07-23T21:01:39Z rpg: ehu: Quick (I hope) question: do you know if anyone's maintaining JSS and if so, where's the central repo?
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2014-07-23T21:07:54Z rpg: ehu: Oh, I see. I should probably just get it from abcl.org.
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2014-07-23T21:22:29Z jdoles: Is there something like watir (ruby thingie) for Lisp which _does_not_suck_?
2014-07-23T21:22:49Z seabot: will you tell us what watir is?
2014-07-23T21:23:27Z jdoles: seabot: it's a tool to automatically control a browser.
2014-07-23T21:23:33Z jdoles: seabot: more specifically a library.
2014-07-23T21:23:54Z jdoles: seabot: it's implemented as a layer on Selenium.
2014-07-23T21:24:17Z jdoles: It has quite a bit of different browser support, etc.
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2014-07-23T21:30:20Z jdoles: In fact, I think I have a need for a somewhat higher level of abstraction than the one offered by these libraries.
2014-07-23T21:31:20Z jdoles: I would like to express "find me a text field with a name similar to X, next to some other piece of text similar to foobar and above some other text bar".
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2014-07-23T21:41:34Z Xach: I have not heard of anything like that that already exists.
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2014-07-23T21:46:41Z fe[nl]ix: jdoles: I recommend casperjs + phantomjs
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2014-07-23T21:48:41Z kristof: Sounds spooky.
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2014-07-23T21:49:08Z jdoles: fe[nl]ix: yeah, that one is nice too.
2014-07-23T21:49:39Z jdoles: fe[nl]ix: still, quite limited in how it fundamentally works.
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2014-07-23T21:50:59Z jdoles: E.g. for Google searches, ideally what you want to have as a result is some opencv tool which can recognize what a link is, then have that information fed back to the browser again, which then evaluates enough information to obtain the actual URL.
2014-07-23T21:51:17Z jdoles: This way, when Google modifies the structure of the HTML/CSS arbitrarily, it still continues to work.
2014-07-23T21:52:24Z jdoles: It's very likely that given enough automated abuse Google will make such changes (they do that for youtube all day long too), but it's not likely that they will change the way how a search listing will look like in any very dramatic way.
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2014-07-23T21:57:40Z phadthai: it might be some work, but a webkit lisp-wrapper, or abcl+selenium would be other options
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2014-07-23T21:59:51Z phadthai: hmm maybe ruby uses the selenium remote control?  If so, lisp could also do that with a little library
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2014-07-23T22:02:46Z phadthai: ah there's ruby wrapper for the api
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2014-07-23T22:40:23Z joe-w-bimedina: I have a cffi :pointer named "data", a pointer to some data and I have to do this operation on it:   b= *data++,  how would I increment this data pointer?
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2014-07-23T23:54:18Z dseagrav: nyef: I now pass all the dispatch tests without turning off ABJ. Lisp is still broken though. I'm trying to find that PJ14 special case now.
2014-07-23T23:55:05Z nyef: dseagrav: Cool. Good luck.
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2014-07-23T23:57:45Z jasom: Can slime jump to a definition for (setf foo) easily?
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2014-07-24T04:57:53Z kristof: I don't know how many of you have read Patterns of Software by Richard Gabriel, but I'm really, really enjoying this book.
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2014-07-24T09:59:18Z Guest81696: Hey mighty wizards! I felt in love with lisp since beginning reading PracticalCL a few month ago. Now I am practicing, but I dont get further with this. Maybe you can give me a hint? I have two lists: (defvar list1 '(a b c)) for the names of properties, which shall be used as properties in a plist. (defvar list2 '(1 2 3)). I want to merge them to a plist "list3" like this: (defvar list3 (list a: 1 b: 2 c:3)) but i cant find a solut
2014-07-24T09:59:31Z Guest81696: Would you please give me a hint? :)
2014-07-24T10:00:12Z H4ns: (mapcan #'list list1 list2)
2014-07-24T10:00:44Z H4ns: what does it do?
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2014-07-24T10:04:22Z |3b|: a: isn't valid lisp, and if you meant :a that isn't the same as a
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2014-07-24T10:10:57Z dim: ,mapcan
2014-07-24T10:11:01Z dim: ,,mapcan
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2014-07-24T10:11:09Z H4ns: clhs mapcan
2014-07-24T10:11:09Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm
2014-07-24T10:11:25Z dim: mmm, I though the bot would handle that way, must be the #emacs one that works on that syntax
2014-07-24T10:11:32Z dim: thanks H4ns meanwhiel
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2014-07-24T10:12:15Z dim: Guest81696: try with mapcar then mapcan and see the diff
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2014-07-24T10:12:46Z dim: and then replace #'list with #'cons
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2014-07-24T10:13:23Z H4ns: dim: to learn what?
2014-07-24T10:13:36Z H4ns: dim: i think (mapcan #'cons ...) is rather confusing
2014-07-24T10:13:47Z dim: to get a feeling of how it work, I find it better to play around in the REPL than just reading the docs
2014-07-24T10:14:13Z moore33: mapcan #'cons is probably not going to work.
2014-07-24T10:14:21Z dim: H4ns: it is, but understanding why is a good way to learn, at least for the way I tend to learn things
2014-07-24T10:14:55Z H4ns: dim: of course.  still, good pointers are better than bad  pointers, and (mapcan #'cons ...) is a bad pointer.
2014-07-24T10:15:00Z dim: moore33: try it yourself: (mapcan #'cons (list :a :b :c) (list 1 2 3)) -- it's probably not what anyone would want to achieve, but still has learning value
2014-07-24T10:15:12Z dim: H4ns: agreed
2014-07-24T10:15:57Z dim: I'm not saying go use that in your code, just play with that in your REPL until you understand what happens and you might remember about mapcar and mapcan for what other libs/apis call zip
2014-07-24T10:16:08Z moore33: dlm: As I said... :)
2014-07-24T10:17:06Z moore33 can't remember what nconc is supposed to do on with an improper list.
2014-07-24T10:17:09Z dim: anyway I think it's all about how you learn, I tend to need to see both the good and the bad pointers to form my memory and understanding
2014-07-24T10:17:11Z moore33: clhs nconc
2014-07-24T10:17:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nconc.htm
2014-07-24T10:18:36Z moore33: Huh, not sure I ever knew that the arguments to nconc could be dotted lists.
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2014-07-24T10:22:21Z moore33: And I should have, since my old office mate Sandra Loosemore wrote the X3J13 issue.
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2014-07-24T11:02:04Z JuanDaugherty: boy irc is super quiet today
2014-07-24T11:02:39Z decent: seems there was action just 45 min ago!
2014-07-24T11:02:58Z JuanDaugherty: when my back was turned!
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2014-07-24T11:04:23Z JuanDaugherty: mapcan, never heard of that
2014-07-24T11:04:52Z dim: they call it zip in python and other languages
2014-07-24T11:05:30Z dim: well, I guess technically python's zip is (mapcar #'cons ...)
2014-07-24T11:05:37Z JuanDaugherty: ah, y I primarily know that from haskell
2014-07-24T11:07:04Z dim: one thing I used a lot in Erlang and am not using at all yet in CL is foldl and foldr, where IIRC foldl is the same as reduce
2014-07-24T11:07:05Z pgomes: #lisp:
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2014-07-24T11:07:32Z pgomes: wrong window :P
2014-07-24T11:07:41Z dim: yeah and foldr is reduce :from-end t
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2014-07-24T11:18:13Z JuanDaugherty is ready to lump hassell with pythong
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2014-07-24T11:55:32Z Guest38597: Grüße euch alle =) wie bekomme ich in CL folgende Situation hin? Ich habe eine (list 1 2 3) und eine weitere (list "a" "b" "c") - nun möchte ich diese zusammenfügen, um daraus eine plist wie (list :a 1 b: 2 :c 3) zu erstellen.... wie komm ich da hin? kann mir jemand einen Hinweis geben?
2014-07-24T11:55:46Z H4ns: Guest38597: english is spoken in this channel
2014-07-24T11:55:54Z H4ns: Guest38597: we answered your question hours ago
2014-07-24T11:57:54Z Guest38597: oops, sorry, please forgive... i thought i connected to frankfurt irc server.. but it's the same. Second failure, i thought the talk about MAPCAN was your question, not matching to my needs.
2014-07-24T11:58:14Z JuanDaugherty: so das Sie kann die anwort hier holen: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/
2014-07-24T11:58:21Z H4ns: Guest38597: the answer is (mapcan #'list list1 list2)
2014-07-24T11:58:37Z JuanDaugherty: i thought it sounded related
2014-07-24T11:58:55Z edgar-rft: JuanDaugherty: ypor german translation is pure crap
2014-07-24T11:59:19Z JuanDaugherty: no doubt, I'm essentially an English monoglot
2014-07-24T11:59:45Z edgar-rft: was that google translator or something similar?
2014-07-24T11:59:52Z Guest38597: thank you very much  =) i will try this
2014-07-24T12:00:16Z H4ns: Guest38597: do read the clhs page about mapcan and experiment on the repl
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2014-07-24T12:00:41Z H4ns: Guest38597: to turn "a" into a keyword, you'll need find-symbol and possibly string-upcase.
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2014-07-24T12:01:22Z Guest38597: yes, i tried as far I could understand, But it's my first days in the REPL, so it takes a lot of time..
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2014-07-24T12:03:07Z Guest38597: okay, alright, (mapcan #'list '(:a :b :c) '(1 2 3) is exactly what i need... But i would like to learn: why is this bad style / you won't use this in production?
2014-07-24T12:03:28Z H4ns: Guest38597: who said it was bad style?
2014-07-24T12:03:40Z JuanDaugherty: yeah should have been konnen
2014-07-24T12:03:54Z H4ns: JuanDaugherty: give it up.  "konnen" is not a german word.
2014-07-24T12:04:15Z JuanDaugherty: my kbd doesn't do umlauts
2014-07-24T12:04:29Z JuanDaugherty: could have used e
2014-07-24T12:05:11Z ggole_ is now known as ggole
2014-07-24T12:05:11Z JuanDaugherty: mapcan appears to be std CL now
2014-07-24T12:05:43Z Guest38597: H4ns: i lost the history - and couldn't find it in the logs @ tunes.org/~nef - so I can't quote... maybe i misread something
2014-07-24T12:06:11Z H4ns: Guest38597: it is not bad style.  carry on.
2014-07-24T12:06:25Z JuanDaugherty: hmm it's ancient was in ctl2
2014-07-24T12:06:41Z Guest38597: but anyway, thank you very much for the friendly contact here - first time getting in touch with lisp community and no reason to love lisp less ;)
2014-07-24T12:07:03Z H4ns: Guest38597: let your first impression last!  welcome :)
2014-07-24T12:07:11Z JuanDaugherty: thick skin helps
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2014-07-24T12:08:50Z Guest38597: haha thank you very much :) i am glad to find a way to here!
2014-07-24T12:09:38Z Guest38597: okay, i am trying and learning now - see you soon around
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2014-07-24T12:25:53Z moore33: Surely mapcan is in CLtL1.
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2014-07-24T12:30:42Z moore33: Since it's in Zetalisp http://www.unlambda.com/lmman/lmman_4.html#SEC15
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2014-07-24T12:32:36Z moore33: and in Maclisp! http://www.maclisp.info/pitmanual/list.html
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2014-07-24T12:38:46Z Poenikatu: Using SBCL, is it possible for one thread to signal another?
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2014-07-24T12:43:03Z |3b|: sbcl has the usual threading primitives
2014-07-24T12:44:25Z H4ns: is there a way to have some thread evaluate some code?  like process-interrupt in some other cl multiprocessing systems?
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2014-07-24T12:45:34Z |3b|: in sbcl? sb-thread:interrupt thread but read the docs before using it (they more or less say "don't use it" :p)
2014-07-24T12:45:57Z |3b|: interrupt-thread
2014-07-24T12:46:19Z H4ns: Poenikatu: ^
2014-07-24T12:46:58Z |3b| was thinking more like atomics/semaphores/mutexes/conditions
2014-07-24T12:47:27Z |3b|: which require the target thread to be cooperating, but are much safer than interrupt-thread
2014-07-24T12:47:45Z H4ns: of course.  threads are inherently unsafe.
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2014-07-24T12:50:54Z hitecnologys: H4ns: what do you want to achieve by making threads evaluate random code?
2014-07-24T12:51:17Z H4ns: hitecnologys: please scroll up, read the original questions and the answer, then consider again.
2014-07-24T12:51:55Z hitecnologys: H4ns: woah, I parsed the whole thing incorrectly. Sorry.
2014-07-24T12:54:54Z Poenikatu: I want a thread to be able to signal to another thread of the need to read a file. This will enable me to ensure that the first thread not be superfluous
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2014-07-24T12:55:07Z dim: |3b|: I'm using lparallel and lparallel.queues for that
2014-07-24T12:55:15Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: you can use thread-safe queue for that.
2014-07-24T12:56:43Z Poenikatu: hitecnologys, Yes, am now looking at the SBCL sb-concurrency package. Thanks
2014-07-24T12:56:51Z dim: Poenikatu: have a look at lparallel and its queues
2014-07-24T12:57:05Z dim: http://lparallel.org/ and http://lparallel.org/api/queues/
2014-07-24T12:57:29Z dim: if you're going to make a cooperating solution anyway, just pop from a queue when it's the good time for your thread
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2014-07-24T13:04:40Z Poenikatu: dim, the api shown does not cover the necessity for one thread to communicate with another. How can that be done?
2014-07-24T13:06:28Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: just push from one thread and pop from another.
2014-07-24T13:07:17Z Poenikatu: hitecnologys, Yes, I understand that, but how does one thread inform another that a value is available to be processed?
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2014-07-24T13:07:35Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: mutexes.
2014-07-24T13:07:51Z Poenikatu: In Unix/Linux, sending a signal is the usual interprocess communication mechanism
2014-07-24T13:07:55Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: but lparallel makes it easy: popping will hang until data is available.
2014-07-24T13:08:23Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: so your thread can just go into infinite loop popping "messages" from queue and you're fine.
2014-07-24T13:10:36Z moore33: And receiving messages from more than one queue? :)
2014-07-24T13:10:46Z moore33: clhs defsetf
2014-07-24T13:10:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defset.htm
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2014-07-24T13:13:37Z Poenikatu: hitecnologys, I do not want a process to hang. Let me be more precise. Suppose I have a thread which is displaying the contents of a file. If the user wants to view the contents of another file, I want the new instance of the file viewer to check whether there is already another instance running, and if so to inform it of the new requirements, before exiting
2014-07-24T13:14:43Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: then you should probably use conditions and signaling. At least that's what I'd use.
2014-07-24T13:14:54Z H4ns: Poenikatu: while your viewer displays a certain file, it should also monitor some input channel to see whether there is a new file to be viewed.  you should make that explicit.
2014-07-24T13:15:10Z H4ns: Poenikatu: what does your viewer thread do when a file is viewed?
2014-07-24T13:16:18Z Poenikatu: H4ns, It's not yet written! I'm just designing it. The current version of the viewer (not in CL) just waits until the user interacts (clicks a button etc)
2014-07-24T13:16:59Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: you can implement use actions as events and also push them to queue.
2014-07-24T13:17:04Z hitecnologys: s/use/user/
2014-07-24T13:17:05Z Poenikatu: The point is, I want to prevent a proliferation of viewer processes
2014-07-24T13:18:12Z Poenikatu: H4ns, When you said "input channel", what were you thinking of?
2014-07-24T13:18:23Z H4ns: Poenikatu: a queue comes to mind.
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2014-07-24T13:19:07Z xristos: Poenikatu: you need an event loop, of sorts
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2014-07-24T13:19:20Z H4ns: or read from a queue
2014-07-24T13:19:34Z xristos: which can be as simple as reading from a queue
2014-07-24T13:20:15Z hitecnologys: I can't imagine any other reasonable way of doing it in this case.
2014-07-24T13:20:34Z xristos: but could also take into account priorities for different events
2014-07-24T13:20:39Z Poenikatu: Sure, reading from a queue is straightforward. It appears that I just have to ensure that a viewer thread checks the queue from time to time.
2014-07-24T13:20:41Z H4ns: there are many less reasonable ways which have been successfully taken.
2014-07-24T13:20:55Z H4ns: Poenikatu: it should _only_ check the queue.
2014-07-24T13:21:06Z H4ns: Poenikatu: send your ui events to the same queue.
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2014-07-24T13:22:01Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: this approach will also reduce amount of unnecessary work as UI will only react when something happens.
2014-07-24T13:22:04Z Poenikatu: H4ns, If I were using C, I should simply send a signal to the other thread (say SIGUSR1) which would be interrupted by the kernel. Its signal handler would then executed the required function
2014-07-24T13:22:13Z H4ns: "simply"
2014-07-24T13:22:23Z H4ns: Poenikatu: there is nothing simple about signals.
2014-07-24T13:22:35Z H4ns: Poenikatu: they're one of the "less reasonable" paths.
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2014-07-24T13:24:07Z Poenikatu: H4ns, I've used Unix signals before and my experience tells me that they are a straightforward, if not simple, means of IPC
2014-07-24T13:24:18Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: signals should only be used to interrupt threads and processes, not transmit messages. Queues are better for this as then thread will pick message when it finds it suitable, not when you want it, which greatly increases simplicity of code and stability of application.
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2014-07-24T13:24:42Z Poenikatu: hitecnologys, Ok, thanks for that
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2014-07-24T13:25:07Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: that's just my opinion, you shouldn't trust it.
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2014-07-24T13:26:28Z H4ns: Poenikatu: anything synchronous is easier to reason about than anything asynchronous
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2014-07-24T13:29:15Z Poenikatu: H4ns, Quite right
2014-07-24T13:30:15Z Guthur: Poenikatu: and at a superficial level you are asking about interthreads comms, right?
2014-07-24T13:30:29Z Guthur: so no need to bother the OS
2014-07-24T13:30:31Z Poenikatu: I'm currently designing a new desktop which I want to use CL for. Considering the size of a standalone CL program, I intend having a mother program which will load tools when required. Clearly, I don't want to proliferate tools
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2014-07-24T13:30:48Z joe-w-bimedina: I have a quick question,  I am writing a function to print an OpenCV matrix, the printed version already is a duplicate of the way a #2A or a #3A array looks, and it would be much faster if I just added all of the data to an #3A or #2A array and just printed that with princ. So is there a way to change the #3A tag on an array when I print it to be #3M to signify a 3D matrix, and if so how would I go about doing that?
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2014-07-24T13:31:45Z Poenikatu: Guthur, Why not?
2014-07-24T13:32:20Z hitecnologys: clhs print-object
2014-07-24T13:32:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pr_obj.htm
2014-07-24T13:32:26Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: ^
2014-07-24T13:32:47Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: it wouldn't be faster.
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2014-07-24T13:34:02Z Guthur: Poenikatu: because it seems rather heavy handed and unnecessary, but i would only be reiterating what others have said, but one additional benefit to using some sort of message queue is that you can actually send discrete data structures
2014-07-24T13:34:16Z Guthur: so you could send the name of the file to loading thread, for example
2014-07-24T13:34:24Z joe-w-bimedina: pjb: I can put a 4000x3000 opencv matrix into an array now in .360 seconds thanks info I got here and that is much faster than my current print matrix design
2014-07-24T13:34:36Z Poenikatu: Guthur, which is exactly what I intend doing.
2014-07-24T13:34:37Z JuanDaugherty groans
2014-07-24T13:34:49Z Poenikatu: JuanDaugherty, Why?
2014-07-24T13:34:57Z JuanDaugherty: not you
2014-07-24T13:35:15Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: for example, printing arrays takes into account *print-circle*, *print-length*, *print-level*.  Printing your objects could ignore that (or not depending what your slot may contain).
2014-07-24T13:35:18Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: That Guy again.
2014-07-24T13:35:39Z Poenikatu: hitecnologys, Steele?
2014-07-24T13:36:02Z joe-w-bimedina: pjb: I was just going to push it all into an array and print that
2014-07-24T13:36:04Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: Joe.
2014-07-24T13:36:16Z pjb: and that would take a lot of time and space.
2014-07-24T13:37:27Z Guthur: joe-w-bimedina: sb-cga has a nice example of custom pprint of an array
2014-07-24T13:37:38Z moore33: joe-w-bimedina means "faster" in the sense of less programmer time.
2014-07-24T13:37:41Z Guthur: only takes about 10 lines
2014-07-24T13:37:42Z Poenikatu: Hm, I'll have a message queue in the main thread which will be checked by daughter threads
2014-07-24T13:37:44Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: people have told you to focus on code rather than on speed lots of times. How many times do we need to tell you this so you understand?
2014-07-24T13:38:21Z joe-w-bimedina: I still need speed because all my code, or most of it is done in a video loop
2014-07-24T13:38:28Z Poenikatu leaving to get some nosh.
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2014-07-24T13:38:34Z Guthur: certainly optimizing a print function seems like a strange endeavour
2014-07-24T13:38:52Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: who cares how fast your code is if there's not code?
2014-07-24T13:39:05Z hitecnologys: s/not/no/
2014-07-24T13:39:24Z Ralt: any simple way to explain in which context macros are better than functions?
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2014-07-24T13:39:41Z |3b|: Ralt: contexts where you can't use a function
2014-07-24T13:39:48Z hitecnologys: Ralt: I'd say macros are good when you want your code to be put in certain context.
2014-07-24T13:39:51Z Guthur: Ralt: syntax abstaction vs functional abstraction
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2014-07-24T13:40:20Z |3b|: and once in a while, contexts where you could use a function, but wrapping the function in a macro makes it easier to use (but it should expand to a simple function call in that case)
2014-07-24T13:40:20Z Ralt: I said "simple" :P
2014-07-24T13:40:27Z moore33: Ralt: Where some arguments shouldn't be evaluated.
2014-07-24T13:40:30Z joe-w-bimedina: hitecnologys: oh I have over 700 functions so far at least  Guthur: this would be really fast though, compared to adding all my own parentheses and spaces in a loop
2014-07-24T13:40:42Z Ralt: moore33: a simple example?
2014-07-24T13:40:59Z |3b|: Ralt: IF is a canonical example
2014-07-24T13:41:00Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: nobody cares how much functions you have if the thing doesn't work.
2014-07-24T13:41:31Z moore33: Ralt: A conditional form, like COND or TYPECASE
2014-07-24T13:41:32Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: and even if it works, nobody cares too.
2014-07-24T13:41:39Z joe-w-bimedina: oh it works awesome, save for the fact we need to get the C generator fixed
2014-07-24T13:41:43Z |3b|: in (if a b c) you only want 1 of B or C evaluated, so IF can't be a function
2014-07-24T13:41:44Z pjb: it's a different kind of abstraction.
2014-07-24T13:41:50Z pjb: For data abstraction, you use structures.
2014-07-24T13:41:58Z pjb: for functional abstraction, you use functions.
2014-07-24T13:42:10Z pjb: for syntactic (metalinguistic) abstraction, you use macros.
2014-07-24T13:42:12Z moore33: joe-w-bimedina: You mean the SWIG generator?
2014-07-24T13:42:12Z joe-w-bimedina: hitecnologys: I bet people would care if it gets in OpenCv
2014-07-24T13:42:19Z Ralt: |3b|: indeed. I'll google how the macro is written.
2014-07-24T13:42:37Z |3b|: (though CL has IF built-in, so we don't need to write that as a macro)
2014-07-24T13:42:40Z Guthur: |3b|:  isn't actually a macro though
2014-07-24T13:42:46Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: nobody cares about crap libraries, and the way you approach writing a cl opencv library is inherently crappy.
2014-07-24T13:42:46Z Guthur: if isn
2014-07-24T13:42:54Z pjb: So you use macros when you need to abstract syntax.  Since lisp has almost no syntax, you use macros almost never.
2014-07-24T13:42:56Z |3b|: right, it is a special operator
2014-07-24T13:43:06Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: writing a good library requires skill, and such skill is not something that you can acquire on the go.
2014-07-24T13:43:08Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: nobody will care how many functions you have unless there are too many of them. Functions are tools, not indicator of anything.
2014-07-24T13:43:09Z moore33: pjb: Say what?
2014-07-24T13:43:16Z Ralt: pjb: I'm asking a simple example of syntactic abstraction, actually
2014-07-24T13:43:17Z pjb: In CL, over about 900 operators, there are only 66 macros.
2014-07-24T13:43:21Z Ralt: I don't see what that means
2014-07-24T13:43:22Z pjb: Ralt: IF.
2014-07-24T13:43:26Z Guthur: but when is a macro, which probably wraps IF giving a convenient syntax abstraction
2014-07-24T13:43:28Z joe-w-bimedina: I improve it every day, it will get even better,
2014-07-24T13:43:37Z H4ns: EVEN BETTER
2014-07-24T13:43:44Z Ralt: indeed, why is `when` a macro then?
2014-07-24T13:43:54Z H4ns: it is already brilliant.  i can clearly see that.
2014-07-24T13:43:58Z pjb: Ralt:  you can write a function IF* such as: (if* (= a b) (lambda () (print 'equal)) (lambda () (print 'not-equal)))  But it will grow old writing those (lambda () …).
2014-07-24T13:44:08Z hitecnologys: Ralt: because it doesn't need it's body be evaluated if condition is false.
2014-07-24T13:44:17Z Guthur: Ralt: macro expand WHEN an you will likely see
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2014-07-24T13:44:30Z pjb: So we write a macro: (defmacro if (test then &optional else) `(if* ,test (lambda () ,then) (lambda () ,else)))
2014-07-24T13:44:33Z hitecnologys: Ralt: WHEN is basically wrapper over IF.
2014-07-24T13:44:51Z pjb: to abstract away the lambda boilderplate.
2014-07-24T13:45:10Z Ralt: hm
2014-07-24T13:45:15Z Ralt: pjb: thanks, that's a good example
2014-07-24T13:45:58Z Ralt: hitecnologys: I know, that's why I wonder why it's not a simple function calling IF
2014-07-24T13:46:10Z joe-w-bimedina: its better than cl-opencv, and I added all the things you guys taught me so far, like just using the : prefix instead of ::, calling object creation functions with make- syntax,  the row-major-aref idea, figured out typecase, everytime I figure out something I update the whole library
2014-07-24T13:46:34Z hitecnologys: Ralt: you can't call IF, it's a macro.
2014-07-24T13:46:38Z moore33: joe-w-bimedina: Cool!
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2014-07-24T13:46:54Z Ralt: hitecnologys: (defun when (cond form) (if cond form nil))
2014-07-24T13:46:56Z stanislav: Ralt: I'll show you an example I used in a script for konversation recently
2014-07-24T13:46:56Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: better how?
2014-07-24T13:46:59Z Guthur: hitecnologys: nope, special operator
2014-07-24T13:47:07Z moore33: Ralt: That doesn't work.
2014-07-24T13:47:12Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: show us one great program that uses your library
2014-07-24T13:47:15Z hitecnologys: Guthur: ah, right.
2014-07-24T13:47:22Z Guthur: probably could be a macro, but that's not what spec says
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2014-07-24T13:47:28Z stanislav: Ralt: I decided to try and implement a kind of UBB markup
2014-07-24T13:47:47Z Ralt: stanislav: following
2014-07-24T13:47:50Z moore33: Ralt: "form" should only be evaluated if cond is true.
2014-07-24T13:47:51Z Guthur: actually probably can't as it maybe the only true conditional statement
2014-07-24T13:47:55Z Ralt: moore33: oh...
2014-07-24T13:48:34Z Ralt: so it would work if I called it like `(when cond #'(lambda ()))`
2014-07-24T13:48:39Z Ralt: which is quite inconvenient.
2014-07-24T13:48:59Z pjb: You would have to add a funcall in the function.
2014-07-24T13:49:00Z hitecnologys: Guthur: I think IF can be implemented as macro over COND.
2014-07-24T13:49:20Z Guthur: hitecnologys: nope COND uses IF, COND is a macro
2014-07-24T13:49:29Z Ralt: pjb: yep, of course
2014-07-24T13:49:31Z hitecnologys: Guthur: oh, I see.
2014-07-24T13:49:51Z Guthur: hitecnologys: easy to see now why IF is a special operator
2014-07-24T13:50:10Z hitecnologys: Guthur: yes, in this case it can't be macro.
2014-07-24T13:50:16Z joe-w-bimedina: I will have my tutor go through it too and then changer what he reccomends, he is a real pro too like you guys, it is still in process, I would like to get it as fast as c++ so that would be feasible but all in all so far, you would do your research in my library where it is comfortable, then write the end product in C++ so its superfast, though it is about as fast as python Opencv so far, and i do keep an eye on speed
2014-07-24T13:50:25Z joe-w-bimedina: *change
2014-07-24T13:51:12Z oGMo: heh
2014-07-24T13:51:15Z hitecnologys: I should probably shoot myself in the head now.
2014-07-24T13:51:26Z decent: nice knowing you!
2014-07-24T13:51:43Z Guthur: ok have fun guys, time to go
2014-07-24T13:51:49Z oGMo: later Guthur
2014-07-24T13:51:51Z joe-w-bimedina: can someone show me how I would print an array with make-array real quick?
2014-07-24T13:51:56Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2014-07-24T13:52:04Z H4ns: why don't you ask your tutor?
2014-07-24T13:52:04Z pjb: (print (make-array '()))
2014-07-24T13:52:11Z oGMo: joe-w-bimedina: you won't not print an array with make-array :p
2014-07-24T13:52:15Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: no, you're exhausted your questions limit today.
2014-07-24T13:52:16Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: you're frightening!
2014-07-24T13:52:18Z oGMo: won't = "would"
2014-07-24T13:52:44Z joe-w-bimedina: i meant with print-object so I could change the tag on the array to #3M
2014-07-24T13:52:45Z stanislav: Ralt: take a look
2014-07-24T13:52:48Z H4ns: White_Flame: thank you for encouraging this person.  i appreciate it.
2014-07-24T13:52:49Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: #lisp is not a place where people do your homework.
2014-07-24T13:52:50Z stanislav: https://pastee.org/enks7
2014-07-24T13:53:02Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: you cannot define a print-object method on standard or built-in classes!
2014-07-24T13:53:20Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: go learn programming!
2014-07-24T13:53:36Z pjb: iterating an array is trivial, you should have learned that at the second programming lesson!
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2014-07-24T13:54:21Z Ralt: stanislav: reading that, thanks
2014-07-24T13:54:40Z stanislav: the point is that the code is completely declarative
2014-07-24T13:54:47Z joe-w-bimedina: yea it is faster  to throw  the matrix in an array though, then I dont have to add the parentheses
2014-07-24T13:55:01Z joe-w-bimedina: and spaces and /n
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2014-07-24T13:55:07Z stanislav: as if Lisp were a special purpose language for UBB
2014-07-24T13:55:11Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2014-07-24T13:55:13Z hitecnologys: stanislav: oh, I like your thing.
2014-07-24T13:55:21Z stanislav: :)
2014-07-24T13:55:33Z hitecnologys: Declarative programming is nice.
2014-07-24T13:56:03Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: are you drunk or what? Go sober up first and then code here.
2014-07-24T13:56:22Z hitecnologys: s/code/come/
2014-07-24T13:56:26Z joe-w-bimedina: not drunk just eager to learn:)
2014-07-24T13:56:35Z hitecnologys: No, you're not.
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2014-07-24T13:57:31Z decent: not drunk or not eager to learn?
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2014-07-24T13:57:54Z Ralt: stanislav: oh, that makes me think of cl-who.
2014-07-24T13:58:13Z hitecnologys: decent: not eager.
2014-07-24T13:58:25Z Ralt: on which I actually have a question about. How can I refactor the "HTML" there? https://github.com/Ralt/jsconsole/blob/master/routes.lisp
2014-07-24T13:59:02Z Ralt: page and fetch-page are defined here https://github.com/Ralt/jsconsole/blob/master/jsconsole.lisp
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2014-07-24T13:59:36Z moore33: I love it when non-native speakers of English talk past each other! Silly foreigners ;)
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2014-07-24T14:00:21Z JuanDaugherty: i no!
2014-07-24T14:00:46Z JuanDaugherty: they get by in here cause you can't hear their thick accents
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2014-07-24T14:01:15Z stanislav: Ralt: well, not exactly.  Actually it's a wrapper of defun.
2014-07-24T14:01:18Z moore33: The Anglophones aren't much better.
2014-07-24T14:01:46Z JuanDaugherty just realized that's a barrier to video irc
2014-07-24T14:02:23Z decent: language in videos? that's a fun one
2014-07-24T14:04:00Z JuanDaugherty: 'video' has two senses, in the context of irc or anything like it it implies audio
2014-07-24T14:05:17Z JuanDaugherty: today for people like moi, video == tv
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2014-07-24T14:11:08Z nyef: G'morning all.
2014-07-24T14:11:58Z JuanDaugherty: moin nyef
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2014-07-24T14:23:09Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: http://paste.lisp.org/+32IJ/1
2014-07-24T14:24:03Z H4ns: pjb: what license?
2014-07-24T14:24:16Z pjb: AGPL3 of course.
2014-07-24T14:25:28Z joe-w-bimedina: pjb: wow!, thanks for that, I appreciate that:)
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2014-07-24T14:26:15Z pjb: You should have been able to write the first version!  The annotation shows how to use a macro to abstract each loop away.
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2014-07-24T14:30:30Z phadthai: 10:24 <pjb> AGPL3 of course.
2014-07-24T14:30:32Z phadthai: trap!
2014-07-24T14:30:34Z phadthai: heh
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2014-07-24T14:58:34Z hitecnologys: H4ns: who's White_Flame?
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2014-07-24T15:07:02Z dlowe: arch-enemy and nemesis of Black_Flame
2014-07-24T15:08:50Z hitecnologys: Huh.
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2014-07-24T15:09:28Z dlowe: jk. I have no idea.
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2014-07-24T16:22:58Z Poenikatu: If I load a package, use it and then issue (delete-package pkgname), and then load the package again, does that produce duplicate code, or simply making the package usable again (SBCL)
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2014-07-24T16:24:06Z Xach: It produces a new package with the same name as the deleted one.
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2014-07-24T16:25:23Z Poenikatu: Ok, but does extra code get loaded? Or, does delete-package actually delete code?
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2014-07-24T16:26:00Z JuanDaugherty: if the same fasl the exact same binary is loaded
2014-07-24T16:26:22Z edgar-rft: how do you load a package?
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2014-07-24T16:26:26Z JuanDaugherty: unless you specify something different the second time
2014-07-24T16:26:27Z ldygaga: i don't think that is guaranteed by the standard ..
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2014-07-24T16:27:38Z ldygaga: defpackage doesn't have any notion of fasl files ..
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2014-07-24T16:27:48Z JuanDaugherty: are you experiencing a problem with this Poenikatu ?
2014-07-24T16:27:51Z Xach: Poenikatu: extra code gets loaded.
2014-07-24T16:28:10Z Xach: Poenikatu: delete-package only works for very simple configurations. restarting the image is more predictable and reliable.
2014-07-24T16:28:31Z Xach: delete-package is predictable, but too simple by itself to be useful in complex situations.
2014-07-24T16:29:10Z ldygaga: yeah .. it just says to the system that "those symbols no longer exist" (they can still exist on the heap, or whatever)
2014-07-24T16:29:23Z Poenikatu: JuanDaugherty, No. I'm just wondering about writing tools as packages which would be loaded on demand. From the answers given, I reckon that a tool should be loaded only once.
2014-07-24T16:29:50Z Xach: If you do more bookkeeping, you may be able to undo the effects of loading more precisely than just delete-package.
2014-07-24T16:30:06Z JuanDaugherty: as Xach said the normal practice is to build an image with what you need loading all pkgs at start
2014-07-24T16:30:11Z Poenikatu: Xach, Bookkeeping?
2014-07-24T16:30:13Z Xach: I did not say that.
2014-07-24T16:30:27Z Xach: Poenikatu: like, keeping track of things to undo.
2014-07-24T16:30:34Z JuanDaugherty: or as you need them
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2014-07-24T16:32:00Z Poenikatu: Not clear as to what you mean by "undo".
2014-07-24T16:32:42Z ldygaga: Poenikatu: what do you wanna do, and why?
2014-07-24T16:32:50Z ldygaga: you just want to load things on "demand"?
2014-07-24T16:33:01Z Xach: Poenikatu: in a sense, delete-package is undoing make-package/defpackage.
2014-07-24T16:33:11Z ldygaga: and unload them after what?
2014-07-24T16:33:18Z ldygaga: (and why ...)
2014-07-24T16:33:19Z Poenikatu: Using (room) on sbcl, I've discovered that loading a package, deleting it then loading it again takes up more conses, more code.
2014-07-24T16:33:31Z ldygaga: well, of course ..
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2014-07-24T16:33:39Z ldygaga: do a garbage collect in-between ...
2014-07-24T16:33:57Z Poenikatu: ldygaga, It maybe "of course" to you, but as a novice, I'm learning.
2014-07-24T16:34:57Z ldygaga: Poenikatu: the old `package' might still be in memory; delete-package only marks it as "unused" and "unavailable" to the system.  it doesn't recycle memory for you.  when you load the package again, you get new symbols, and what not ...
2014-07-24T16:35:15Z Poenikatu: ldygaga, Just as I thought. TVM
2014-07-24T16:35:39Z ldygaga: and with sbcl you might not even get back the space after sbcl because of how its gc works
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2014-07-24T16:35:53Z Poenikatu: ldygaga, Not a novice programmer. Been doing that since '67
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2014-07-24T16:36:38Z ldygaga: just curious why you care about a few conses ...
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2014-07-24T16:38:16Z Poenikatu: ldygaga, I'm don't care. Mind you, (room) reports over 2 million conses. Seems a lot to me
2014-07-24T16:38:29Z ldygaga: Poenikatu: make-package does a lot of stuff
2014-07-24T16:39:19Z JuanDaugherty: consing is extremely basic in lisp
2014-07-24T16:39:30Z ldygaga: 600,187 cons objects, 600,643 cons objects.  that is between two runs of "(room)" :-)
2014-07-24T16:39:45Z JuanDaugherty: basic/common/ubiquitous whatever
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2014-07-24T16:41:40Z ldygaga: Poenikatu: try (ed 'make-package) and see what it actually does :-)
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2014-07-24T16:47:45Z Poenikatu: ldygaga, sb-ext:*ed-functions* is nil, so nothing so far. I shall write a function for ed
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2014-07-24T16:56:29Z pjb: ldygaga: there's absolutely no operator in CL to say that "this symbol no longer exists".
2014-07-24T16:57:23Z pjb: Deleting a package just does that, it deletes the package.  That does nothing to the symbols accessible or interned in that package (beside making them have no home package anymore).
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2014-07-24T16:59:34Z pjb: Watson: 1e12 conses.
2014-07-24T16:59:43Z JuanDaugherty: the spec doesn't say all it's symbols are un-interned?
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2014-07-24T16:59:48Z JuanDaugherty: *its
2014-07-24T17:00:00Z pjb: JuanDaugherty: that doesn't mean anything.
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2014-07-24T17:01:05Z pjb: It says the symbols whose home package was the deleted package have now a home package set to nil.
2014-07-24T17:01:18Z rpg: p_l: Would you mind updating the topic to reflect today's release of ASDF 3.1.3? Thanks!
2014-07-24T17:01:32Z p_l: sure
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2014-07-24T17:02:29Z p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted| New: ASDF 3.1.3, SBCL 1.2.1, cl-launch 4.0.6, yason 0.6.6, hunchentoot 1.2.27
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2014-07-24T17:02:37Z p_l: looks good?
2014-07-24T17:02:51Z rpg: p_l: Brilliant! Thanks!
2014-07-24T17:03:18Z p_l: n.b. I think we don't have topic updates blocked to OP-only
2014-07-24T17:03:41Z p_l: though I'm not sure if we shouldn't. Fortunately so far it was not abused...
2014-07-24T17:03:49Z ChanServ has set mode -o p_l
2014-07-24T17:04:37Z rpg: p_l: Watch for my impending topic announcements of my own awesomeness ;-)
2014-07-24T17:07:50Z rpg: BTW, anyone know how to get onto abcl-devel mailing list? The abcl page just links to GMANE...
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2014-07-24T17:10:07Z aeth: p_l: I've seen topic changes abused by trolls in other channels before. I think it's sort of a herd immunity thing, though. Channels the trolls have encountered are all topic locked so they don't even know it's possible in some channels.
2014-07-24T17:10:26Z aeth: My opinion is that it should be topic locked now that someone mentioned it here because it only takes one troll to troll the topic.
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2014-07-24T17:11:34Z p_l: well, we have been depending on OPs to change the topic for some time now....
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2014-07-24T17:27:42Z rpg: Bleah. ASDF-announce is one of the dead mailling lists on common-lisp.net, and posting to devel lists to announce releases just gets me a flood of bounces.
2014-07-24T17:28:06Z rpg: Anyone know anything about the status of the cl.net mailing lists?
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2014-07-24T17:30:36Z ehu: rpg: the list has been garbage-collected because it didn't have any members.
2014-07-24T17:30:54Z ehu: rpg: at least, that's the reason lists have been gc-ed in the move.
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2014-07-24T17:31:22Z ehu: rpg: however, I'm sure we can re-create the list.
2014-07-24T17:32:26Z ehu: is there more reason to join it than there was before?
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2014-07-24T17:37:06Z Ralt: in which format do you guys usually store configuration files?
2014-07-24T17:37:19Z Ralt: as in, db credentials and the likes.
2014-07-24T17:37:34Z Ralt: just in (defvar)?
2014-07-24T17:38:06Z Xach: Ralt: I sometimes use the first line of a file, and use more than one file.
2014-07-24T17:38:16Z Xach: I've seen a few projects use py-configparser lately
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2014-07-24T17:39:19Z Ralt: Xach: ok, thanks
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2014-07-24T17:41:20Z jaimef: vlm on an alpha multia is SOO slow
2014-07-24T17:41:58Z JuanDaugherty: vlm is a lisp machine?
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2014-07-24T17:42:27Z jaimef: well psuedo one I guess
2014-07-24T17:42:30Z jaimef: symbolics stuff
2014-07-24T17:42:45Z p_l: JuanDaugherty: it's essentially Symbolics Ivory implemented in Alpha assembler
2014-07-24T17:43:00Z JuanDaugherty: ah, so same-ole I guess
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2014-07-24T17:46:22Z Fare: Xach: how do I tell quickload to STFU and not print anything unless there is an error?
2014-07-24T17:46:45Z Xach: Fare: make an empty broadcast stream.
2014-07-24T17:47:08Z Ralt: (let ((*standard-output nil)) (ql:quickload ...))
2014-07-24T17:47:18Z Fare: will errors go to *error-output* ?
2014-07-24T17:47:20Z didi: Xach: That's a nice trick I learned from you.
2014-07-24T17:47:31Z ehu: Xach: py-configparser is used? nice.
2014-07-24T17:48:07Z ehu: how do you guys portably access environment variables?
2014-07-24T17:48:07Z eudoxia: >not using YAML
2014-07-24T17:48:10Z eudoxia: get on with the times
2014-07-24T17:48:13Z eudoxia: ehu: OSICAT
2014-07-24T17:48:53Z Xach: Fare: I think so.
2014-07-24T17:49:18Z ehu: osicat? hmm.
2014-07-24T17:49:27Z ehu: does that have dependencies?
2014-07-24T17:49:50Z nyef: jaimef: What speed multia? And does it run under Linux, or do you need Digital Unix or whatever it's called?
2014-07-24T17:49:52Z jaimef: hmm quicklisp is a nogo
2014-07-24T17:49:59Z eudoxia: :depends-on (cffi cffi-grovel alexandria trivial-features)
2014-07-24T17:50:03Z jaimef: nyeg 166mhz
2014-07-24T17:50:07Z jaimef: nyef ^^
2014-07-24T17:50:13Z nyef: Ah. Yeah, that'd be slow.
2014-07-24T17:50:14Z jaimef: doing it on netbsd with compat_alpha(2)
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2014-07-24T17:50:22Z Fare: our good old friend Dave Nool.
2014-07-24T17:50:23Z jaimef: only 16megs of ram
2014-07-24T17:50:31Z ehu: eudoxia: ok. that's way too heavy for py-configparser.
2014-07-24T17:50:51Z nyef: Hrm. Guess I'll have to give that a try once I have my DS20L working.
2014-07-24T17:50:54Z ehu: maybe I should let users register a "retrieve environment variable value" function
2014-07-24T17:51:08Z ehu: then they can choose to do that through osicat.
2014-07-24T17:51:15Z nyef: (633MHz or 833MHz, I forget which, two CPUs.)
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2014-07-24T17:53:00Z ehu: that would allow me to implement the last bit of missing python-compat bit in py-configparser
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2014-07-24T18:15:00Z fiveop: Hi
2014-07-24T18:15:01Z fiveop: H4ns: When is the next berlin meetup?
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2014-07-24T18:25:56Z rpg: ehu: sorry - I was away when you responded. I'm confused about ABCL-devel. It seems from GMANE that there's something live, but you say the list has been garbage-collected?
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2014-07-24T18:30:20Z Xach: rpg: I suspect that was re: asdf-announce
2014-07-24T18:30:37Z rpg: Xach: Oh, I get it.
2014-07-24T18:30:57Z rpg: I was hacking on ABCL a little, so was looking for a way to get on abcl-devel.
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2014-07-24T18:42:16Z Fare: Xach: is it on purpose that asdf:load-system can load already downloaded quicklisp systems, but not systems that haven't been downloaded yet? (IIUC)
2014-07-24T18:42:32Z Xach: Fare: Yes.
2014-07-24T18:42:53Z Fare: what is the rationale for not downloading always?
2014-07-24T18:43:15Z Ralt: that's the point of quicklisp to download systems
2014-07-24T18:43:20Z Xach: It does download always with ql:quickload.
2014-07-24T18:43:29Z Ralt: asdf just loads existing systems on the filesystem
2014-07-24T18:43:57Z Xach: quickload is for downloading, asdf:load-system is for loading.
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2014-07-24T18:44:27Z Fare: couldn't load-system do the downloading, too? Then the same command would work whether or not quicklisp is loaded
2014-07-24T18:44:43Z didi: I like the distinction.
2014-07-24T18:44:52Z Xach: Anything could do anything. I don't want to hook load-system that way.
2014-07-24T18:45:13Z Fare: I used to not see the distinction, because I used to always download all of quicklisp
2014-07-24T18:45:20Z Fare: why not?
2014-07-24T18:45:27Z Xach: It's a matter of taste.
2014-07-24T18:45:29Z Xach: I prefer it this way.
2014-07-24T18:46:09Z Xach: When I want to load things without quicklisp, I export a system index from quicklisp and use that.
2014-07-24T18:46:18Z didi: Please don't change it? ;^)
2014-07-24T18:46:53Z Xach: I'm not sure how the same command could work whether or not Quicklisp was loaded if it required downloading something to work.
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2014-07-24T18:48:16Z Fare: One script would use asdf:load-system
2014-07-24T18:48:31Z Fare: and not care whichever way its dependencies are provided
2014-07-24T18:48:37Z Fare: either via quicklisp, or not
2014-07-24T18:48:41Z foom: having require go automatically go download stuff seems poor.
2014-07-24T18:48:47Z foom: (imo)
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2014-07-24T18:49:23Z Fare: foom: why so?
2014-07-24T18:50:09Z Fare: as long as you trust quicklisp in any way, it's just drinking the kool aid slowly vs drinking it fast
2014-07-24T18:50:13Z Xach: I have more requests to disable downloading than vice versa.
2014-07-24T18:50:27Z Fare: (setf *quicklisp-auto-download* nil)
2014-07-24T18:50:40Z Xach: It's more about tracking dependencies than trust, to avoid inadvertently adding local dependencies that are not tracked properly.
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2014-07-24T18:51:58Z foom: I wouldn't want running a command in my shell to go automatically download and install the package that provides it, either.
2014-07-24T18:52:11Z Fare: I'm not sure how mixing implementation details into a user's way of declaring dependencies is helping.
2014-07-24T18:52:38Z foom: It's not, you declare your dependencies in an as.
2014-07-24T18:52:40Z foom: in an asd
2014-07-24T18:52:41Z Fare: foom: only if you configured said command to do so by having it enable quicklisp
2014-07-24T18:52:47Z Xach: Sorry, I'm not going to change Quicklisp to help you with your ILC keynote.
2014-07-24T18:52:57Z Fare: that was not the point
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2014-07-24T18:53:34Z Fare: and that's insulting.
2014-07-24T18:53:47Z Fare: and it's not a keynote, just a demonstration.
2014-07-24T18:54:01Z foom: Once your deps are declared in the asd, you quickload the one thing, and then it works.
2014-07-24T18:54:07Z Fare: and I had not thought of talking about quicklisp, but maybe I should.
2014-07-24T18:54:27Z Xach: I wouldn't bother. It's not clear that it's caught on yet.
2014-07-24T18:55:01Z Fare: foom: which supposes that your script knows whether it's quickload or asdf:load-system, which means that all scripts suddenly have to care
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2014-07-24T18:55:26Z Fare: unless of course you're using cl-launch, which can try to do the right thing.
2014-07-24T18:55:26Z foom: Or have the user quickload it before running the script
2014-07-24T18:55:26Z Xach: Anyway, I don't think Quicklisp is good for scripting, and I'd like to make it better, but I do not think making asdf:load-system potentially fetch dependencies furthers that goal much.
2014-07-24T18:55:53Z Xach: But if you do, you could make it do that without any intervention from Quicklisp.
2014-07-24T18:55:54Z foom: So that deploying a script into a production environment doesn't suddenly depend on the current state of the lisp world.
2014-07-24T18:56:03Z Xach: You could use Quicklisp's database independently, if you like.
2014-07-24T18:56:16Z Fare: I'll change cl-launch to call quickload instead of asdf:load-system when quicklisp is enabled.
2014-07-24T18:56:24Z Xach: foom: For what it's worth, I've saved all states, monthly, going back to 2010.
2014-07-24T18:56:34Z foom: (which, I might note, is a big problem these days in other ecosystems; some dep changes and suddenly everyone's cloud deployments break, immediately)
2014-07-24T18:56:37Z jasom: Fare: -Q doesn't do that already?
2014-07-24T18:56:38Z Fare: foom: in production, you'd either not use quicklisp, or configure it to use trusted sources
2014-07-24T18:56:39Z Xach: The idea being you can match previous production environments.
2014-07-24T18:57:02Z Fare: jasom: nope, since I only ever had used quicklisp while having downloaded everything, I hadn't noticed this difference
2014-07-24T18:57:06Z Fare: until now
2014-07-24T18:57:30Z Xach: That costs me so many picodollars.
2014-07-24T18:57:30Z jasom: Fare: I never noticed either, probably since I develop in a REPL before using cl anyway
2014-07-24T18:58:38Z foom: Fare: Right, so you don't need load-system to download, nor for the script to call ql:quickload, because it'll be available already.
2014-07-24T18:59:44Z jasom: Fare: Other useless cl-launch tricks include setting the Run command in geany to 'cl -Q -sp "$(basename %p)" "(main)"' and then <F5> runs your program
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2014-07-24T19:01:12Z jasom: That's assuming your system name is the same as the basename of the directory it is in anyway.
2014-07-24T19:02:07Z Fare: jasom: what's geany?
2014-07-24T19:02:29Z jasom: Fare: a gtk ide
2014-07-24T19:02:39Z jasom: Fare: mediocre visual-studio clone sort of thing
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2014-07-24T19:03:31Z jasom: I picked it to try getting things work, since it's language agnostic and already had lisp code-folding and syntax highlighting.
2014-07-24T19:03:48Z jasom: And has an embedded terminal in the bottom window that a repl works in.
2014-07-24T19:04:19Z jasom: Now if you hate emacs you can pretend to develop with sbcl.
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2014-07-24T19:07:05Z jasom: http://imgur.com/A5jCg8j <-- screenshot in action
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2014-07-24T19:16:13Z hitecnologys: jasom: there's also VIM fo those who hate Emacs.
2014-07-24T19:17:03Z jasom: hitecnologys: right.  The majority of programmers I know use neither
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2014-07-24T19:20:04Z loz1: hi, i have a problem with running slime with ecl, on loading swank-loader it falls with
2014-07-24T19:20:04Z loz1: Condition of type: FILE-ERROR
2014-07-24T19:20:04Z loz1: Filesystem error with pathname #P"SYS:CMP.NEWEST".
2014-07-24T19:20:04Z loz1: does anybody know how to fix it?
2014-07-24T19:21:02Z loz1: google finds such problem with building ecl on windows, but i'm on linux and build was successful
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2014-07-24T19:25:46Z Xach: loz1: are you able to do anything with ECL? have you tried any other stuff? is it just slime?
2014-07-24T19:26:32Z Xach: which ecl are you using?
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2014-07-24T19:30:42Z Xach: I don't know much about ECL, sorry, so I'm just thinking of some troubleshooting steps.
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2014-07-24T19:36:00Z rpg: Is there any chance that ECL is trying to use the "cmp" program?
2014-07-24T19:36:54Z jasom: loz1: can you get a backtrace?
2014-07-24T19:39:40Z Xach: "cmp" is the compiler, usually.
2014-07-24T19:40:11Z Fare: rpg: asdf automatically loads cmp
2014-07-24T19:40:21Z jasom: loz1: also, did you install ecl, or are you running it in-place from a build?
2014-07-24T19:41:41Z jdoolin: before I write a macro, is there a non-short-circuiting cond?  or perhaps a better way than writing a macro for it?
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2014-07-24T19:42:30Z nyef: jdoolin: How do you mean "non-short-circuiting"? What's your actual use-case?
2014-07-24T19:43:06Z Xach: potentially call multiple clauses depending on what's true, i'd guess?
2014-07-24T19:43:16Z Xach would probably use a set of whens
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2014-07-24T19:43:27Z nyef: Sounds like... yeah, a bunch of WHENs in a PROGN.
2014-07-24T19:43:31Z jdoolin: yeah, just a bunch of repeated whens in a progn
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2014-07-24T19:43:50Z jasom: jdoolin: what's the result value?
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2014-07-24T19:44:09Z Fare changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted| New: ASDF 3.1.3, SBCL 1.2.1, cl-launch 4.0.7, yason 0.6.6, hunchentoot 1.2.27
2014-07-24T19:44:13Z jdoolin: in this case it wouldn't matter, so if it behaves as a progn that's fine
2014-07-24T19:44:33Z Fare: cl-launch 4.0.7, now with more quicklisp downloading
2014-07-24T19:44:43Z nyef: Not worth introducing a new control construct for it unless you have special requirements for the result value or it signifies something important in terms of the intent of hte code.
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2014-07-24T19:46:44Z nyef: "Something important" could be something like validating state coverage at compile time or similar.
2014-07-24T19:47:20Z nyef: Never actually tried that, but now I'm curious to see if I can come up with a scenario where that makes sense to try and a workable implementation.
2014-07-24T19:47:29Z jdoolin: that makes sense
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2014-07-24T19:48:12Z nyef: On the other hand, a good unit test suite could work just as well, and be less intrusive, so there's a bunch of tradeoffs there.
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2014-07-24T20:33:51Z loz1: Xach: just tryed to load quicklisp, but it failed on (REQUIRE 'QLQS-IMPL::SOCKETS)
2014-07-24T20:34:10Z loz1: dont know what else to try
2014-07-24T20:34:18Z Xach: loz1: it sounds like your ecl is either old or incompletely installed. where did you get ecl? what version is it?
2014-07-24T20:34:31Z loz1: jasom: just builded ecl from latest sourceforge sources
2014-07-24T20:35:00Z loz1:  Xach: ECL (Embeddable Common-Lisp) 13.5.1 (git:f67bbd42bcfacd8b75c2e69aa9eba1c0dc24f324)
2014-07-24T20:35:01Z jasom: loz1: you need to install it for it to work well; alternatively you can launch it with a shell script provided IIRC
2014-07-24T20:36:00Z loz1: install it? sockets library?
2014-07-24T20:36:11Z jasom: loz1: install ECL
2014-07-24T20:36:32Z loz1: well, i made configure, make, make install..
2014-07-24T20:37:07Z loz1: only option i set was prefix to install to my home dir
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2014-07-24T20:40:29Z jasom: that should work
2014-07-24T20:40:40Z jasom: make sure that slime is launching the correct executable?
2014-07-24T20:41:06Z jasom: or try the most recent release instead of a git checkout?
2014-07-24T20:41:54Z jasom: there should be a git tag for it
2014-07-24T20:42:20Z jasom is using 13.5.1 with none of these problems
2014-07-24T20:42:44Z jasom: but I installed from my package manager, not from source
2014-07-24T20:42:44Z Xach: f67bbd4 is the latest commit
2014-07-24T20:43:16Z jasom: Xach: and therefore is newer than the most recent release, right?
2014-07-24T20:43:23Z Hydan is confused by mutitude of parenscript repos
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2014-07-24T20:44:29Z Xach: yeah.
2014-07-24T20:44:53Z Xach: loz1: out of curiosity, what led you to ecl?
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2014-07-24T20:46:36Z loz1: jasom: what is your package manager?)
2014-07-24T20:47:04Z loz1: Xach: i want to try out its binary compilation and ffi
2014-07-24T20:48:13Z loz1: sbcl makes 50mb binaries for hello world, and i think maybe ecl can do better
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2014-07-24T20:48:26Z jaimef: loz1: it does
2014-07-24T20:48:30Z nyef: "Hello world" binary size is almost never a usable benchmark.
2014-07-24T20:48:31Z jaimef: strip them?
2014-07-24T20:48:43Z jaimef: any binary will be minimal size that
2014-07-24T20:48:57Z nyef: Unless you want to measure the size of the mark in your bench caused by dropping compiled hello world programs onto it.
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2014-07-24T20:49:18Z loz1: nyef: why? it shows how much is compiled into it
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2014-07-24T20:49:45Z nyef: It's rarely relevant.
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2014-07-24T20:49:47Z loz1: for example gambit scheme does good job
2014-07-24T20:50:55Z nyef: There ARE cases where final binary size is relevant, I'm not disputing that, but for most cases it's not a useful measure, and even when it IS it's better to test with an actual representative program rather than the smallest trivial program with observable behavior that can be made to compile.
2014-07-24T20:51:32Z loz1: ok, i want to run many instances of this program under supervising
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2014-07-24T20:52:30Z nyef: Hrm. Not finding any good hits for "supervising", it's a spectacularly ill-chosen name for anything technical.
2014-07-24T20:52:47Z loz1: current solution works on python, and with all libraries it takes 100mb for instance
2014-07-24T20:53:05Z Fare: loz1: you might be interested in dim's pgloader
2014-07-24T20:53:08Z loz1: nyef: its terminology from erlang field
2014-07-24T20:53:23Z Fare: he translated it recently from python to sbcl, with much speed and robustness gain
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2014-07-24T20:54:30Z loz1: Fare: ill check it out, thanks
2014-07-24T20:55:02Z nyef: So, these mostly run on the same machine? You're going to see a couple of interesting affects, one of which is that most of the "unused" bits in the core file are simply mmap()ed in and never touched, and another of which is that the space "used up" by those parts end up being shared amongst all of the various instances in a copy-on-write manner anyway.
2014-07-24T20:55:16Z nyef: s/affects/effects/, damnit, I should know better.
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2014-07-24T20:55:38Z nyef: Again, not a useful benchmark.
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2014-07-24T20:56:21Z loz1: nyef: are you talking about linux kernel behaviour or sbcl?
2014-07-24T20:57:20Z jaimef: any binary will be only this small.
2014-07-24T20:58:19Z loz1: jaimef: ifaik sbcl puts compiler and interpreter inside compiled binary
2014-07-24T20:58:29Z loz1: and probably many other things
2014-07-24T20:58:39Z loz1: and it is not configurable
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2014-07-24T20:59:07Z jaimef: yeap, no tree shaker
2014-07-24T20:59:26Z jaimef: I wish I could see the output of from franz lisp, binary size
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2014-07-24T21:01:22Z loz1: tree shaker?)
2014-07-24T21:02:12Z jaimef: yeah, the tech that removes unused code in your binary
2014-07-24T21:06:31Z jasom: loz1: I use gentoo
2014-07-24T21:07:07Z jasom: loz1: there is a lisp overlay that contains the latest versions of pretty much all lisp implementations.
2014-07-24T21:07:46Z jasom: loz1: ccl is smaller binaries than sbcl
2014-07-24T21:08:19Z loz1: jasom: i see, i'll add this overlay
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2014-07-24T21:09:32Z loz1: thanks guys, time to sleep, bb
2014-07-24T21:09:46Z jasom: loz1: hello-world sizes: ccl 29M clisp 7.6M ecl 2.0M sbcl 49M
2014-07-24T21:10:16Z jasom: loz1: with drakma loaded: ccl 42M clisp 16M ecl 4.9M sbcl 68M
2014-07-24T21:10:32Z loz1: ecl 2.0M, ecl 4.9M
2014-07-24T21:10:32Z loz1: good news everyone :)
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2014-07-24T21:11:21Z jasom: loz1: and the ecl runtime is a few MB, but is included in all the others
2014-07-24T21:11:22Z jaimef: ecl is nice
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2014-07-24T21:11:50Z loz1: i probably like word embeddable, sounds like it could be used everythere
2014-07-24T21:12:16Z jasom: loz1: it's actually, in some ways less portable, as a compiler is needed to do anything non-trivial
2014-07-24T21:12:36Z jasom: s/a compiler/a c compiler/
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2014-07-24T21:13:03Z loz1: c compiler is acceptable restriction
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2014-07-24T21:14:29Z jasom: loz1: it has the worst startuptimes though, FYI
2014-07-24T21:14:40Z jasom: not at all suitable for command-line applications
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2014-07-24T21:17:54Z jasom: he's gone, but I was going to recommend the :compress option for sbcl... it's faster startup than ecl at about half the size of uncompressed sbcl
2014-07-24T21:18:20Z jasom: Fare: is there a way to get cl-launch to pass :compress t to s-l-a-d?
2014-07-24T21:18:57Z AeroNotix: the guy was talking a load of shit
2014-07-24T21:19:01Z AeroNotix: tbh
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2014-07-24T21:22:40Z Fare: jasom, probably
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2014-07-24T21:22:54Z jasom: I should add that to my benchmark
2014-07-24T21:23:01Z Fare: jasom, patches welcome :-/
2014-07-24T21:23:04Z jasom: 95TODO --compress-core
2014-07-24T21:23:11Z jasom: just saw that
2014-07-24T21:23:44Z Fare: jasom: will you send me a patch?
2014-07-24T21:24:07Z jasom: Fare: what's you're opinion on what --compress-core should do if the implementation doesn't support core compression? Warn, error, silently continue?
2014-07-24T21:24:15Z jasom: Fare: once I get it working
2014-07-24T21:24:18Z Fare: the latest uiop supports compression
2014-07-24T21:24:24Z jasom: ohhh
2014-07-24T21:24:32Z Fare: but not cl-launch (yet)
2014-07-24T21:24:50Z Fare: uiop only supports :compression t on sbcl
2014-07-24T21:25:07Z jasom: Fare: what happens if sbcl doesn't have compression enabled?
2014-07-24T21:25:10Z Fare: I'm a bit torn wrt behavior on other platforms
2014-07-24T21:25:17Z Fare: I would probably go for warning
2014-07-24T21:25:26Z Fare: jasom: an error, I suppose
2014-07-24T21:25:48Z jasom: do you still maintain uiop, or did that transfer with asdf?
2014-07-24T21:28:36Z Fare: yes
2014-07-24T21:28:52Z Fare: :_)
2014-07-24T21:29:02Z Fare: in practice, I'm still fixing bugs found in it
2014-07-24T21:29:13Z Fare: happily, the trickle of bugs is shrinking.
2014-07-24T21:29:22Z Fare: but still too many in last release
2014-07-24T21:31:39Z Fare: 3 bugs fixing between 3.1.2 and 3.1.3, plus three minor new features.
2014-07-24T21:33:51Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/image-bench <-- there's my simple benchmark for anyone that want's to run it.
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2014-07-24T21:38:38Z Fare: btw, does anyone use MacOS ? Does #!/usr/bin/cl -s asdf work as a script interpreter? what about #!/usr/bin/cl -s asdf -ip '(+ 1 1)' ?
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2014-07-24T21:41:12Z jasom: IIRC all non-dead desktop unixes either split all arguments or split at the first whitespace
2014-07-24T21:41:47Z jasom: I use MacOS on my laptop but haven't installed cl-launch yet.  I think it uses the BSD shebang code, so testing on bsd should give you some idea of how it works
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2014-07-24T21:43:43Z p_l: jasom: except there's no guarantee the shebang code is not from 1991... ;)
2014-07-24T21:44:07Z p_l: but yeah, should work, although I do recall some issues between different unices...
2014-07-24T21:44:41Z p_l: supposedly in cygwin it doesn't spli, huh
2014-07-24T21:45:59Z jasom just does #!/bin/bash \n whatever I want plus args <<"EOF"
2014-07-24T21:49:55Z AeroNotix: I tried in #emacs and didn't get much help -- any ideas why this tells me that 'else is unbound?
2014-07-24T21:49:58Z AeroNotix: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/6c0bfb31472894a3c4ea
2014-07-24T21:50:15Z AeroNotix: it's macroexpanded, which is why it looks weird
2014-07-24T21:51:51Z Xach: you could still indent it properly.
2014-07-24T21:51:58Z Xach: i can't reproduce. but it's off topic anyway.
2014-07-24T21:52:28Z AeroNotix: Xach: emacs lisp is off-topic?
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2014-07-24T21:53:49Z Xach: AeroNotix: yes. this channel is for common lisp only.
2014-07-24T21:53:55Z AeroNotix: Xach: roger
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2014-07-24T22:00:19Z ChibaPet: There's an #emacs channel that could be helpful, AeroNotix.
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2014-07-24T22:05:03Z AeroNotix: ChibaPet: I.... just said that I didn't get help there.
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2014-07-24T22:05:47Z ChibaPet: Sure enough. I'd not noted that. Still, depending on when you ask you might find help.
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2014-07-24T22:06:13Z Fare: jasom, the problem I'm anticipating here is more the recursive script interpreter issue. Recent linuxen do it well, but at least some recent BSDs seem to hate it.
2014-07-24T22:07:36Z Fare: also, if the kernel and shell interpret the quoting of the command line differently, then that means one should only portably rely but on non-special non-space characters in arguments
2014-07-24T22:08:01Z Fare: which precludes a lot of lisp syntax
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2014-07-24T22:08:43Z p_l: Fare: I think you can only portably depend on writing shell script that would then use `exec` to switchover to lisp
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2014-07-24T22:28:28Z jasom: pillton: so I didn't try your version for the ipc exception, but I did confirm that I can reliably cause my program to raise the condition.  Connect, send some data, have it back in the poll group and don't disconnect from the client.  Let sit overnight and there's an exception in the morning
2014-07-24T22:29:37Z jasom: pillton: there's the backtrace, it's still in it now if you want any more info... http://paste.lisp.org/+32IL
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2014-07-24T22:33:08Z jasom: errno 4 is "Interrupted system call" I'm not sure why strerror didn't pick that up
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2014-07-24T22:36:21Z jasom: If you provide a restart for EINTR that lets you retry, that would make handling this easy (or even retry by default on EINTR)
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2014-07-24T23:20:42Z jimbow: anyone use sublime?
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2014-07-24T23:24:17Z antoszka: jimbow: only for XML files.
2014-07-24T23:24:33Z jimbow: is there a way to make it not auto fill the () or ""
2014-07-24T23:24:59Z antoszka: no idea, I'm actually enjoying that (same as with paredit mode in emacs)
2014-07-24T23:25:03Z jimbow: i've tried googling, but i don't think i'm entering the right search terms
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2014-07-25T01:13:17Z joe-w-bimedina: does anyone here have the issue where mem-arefing a pointer with a '(:struct...) as the type takes 6 seconds for 1 million runs, If so is there any way to speed this up?
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2014-07-25T03:08:02Z kristof: " We built LIL, the Lisp Interface Library, with the ambition that it should become the definitive library for data structures in Common Lisp."
2014-07-25T03:08:08Z kristof: Bold words.
2014-07-25T03:10:33Z kristof: The common lisp object system is currently the definitive way to build data structures and polymorphic functions in Common Lisp, and the object system itself is built on an object system with grear success. so here's some food for thought:
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2014-07-25T03:12:07Z kristof: What kind of benefits would there be to writing an object and interface system using an object language that has interfaces?
2014-07-25T03:13:40Z kristof: If parametric polymorphism strictly increases the expressiveness of a language, does that mean that the range of expressible object languages written in such a way is strictly greater?
2014-07-25T03:19:46Z kristof: Unrelated: " There is no need to wrap and unwrap data inside constructors of different classes to see that data through a different viewpoint; simply change the interface, and the same data can be punned into meaning usefully different things." I don't know if he intended this, but it seems Fare has reinvented subject oriented programming
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2014-07-25T03:56:31Z Tuxedo: 'Evening.
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2014-07-25T04:25:45Z pillton: jasom: Ok. Thanks. I will try that.
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2014-07-25T04:43:20Z PuercoPop: kristof: The punning idea Fare took it from Henry Baker
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2014-07-25T05:40:15Z nydel: a good way to write a format function or macro that sends the string to multiple streams?
2014-07-25T05:40:47Z Bike: clhs make-broadcast-stream
2014-07-25T05:40:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_bro.htm
2014-07-25T05:41:08Z nydel: there it is. thank you Bike
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2014-07-25T08:01:57Z |3b|: reinitialize-instance shouldn't modify a slot if it doesn't have an :initform and no :initarg is provided, right?
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2014-07-25T08:20:13Z H4ns: |3b|: that would be my expectation
2014-07-25T08:21:14Z |3b|: ok, seems to behave that way, but wasn't sure if i can rely on it
2014-07-25T08:21:44Z |3b| should probably check the spec at some point
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2014-07-25T08:22:04Z H4ns: |3b|: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_reinit.htm is rather explicit and short
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2014-07-25T08:25:06Z |3b|: well, also have to read shared-initialize
2014-07-25T08:25:38Z H4ns: The method then calls the generic function shared-initialize with the following arguments: the instance, nil (which means no slots should be initialized according to their initforms), and the initargs it received.
2014-07-25T08:25:58Z H4ns: i'd stop right there and not expect anything unreasonable to happen in shared-initialize
2014-07-25T08:26:09Z |3b|: right, and shared-initialize adds in things involving :initforms
2014-07-25T08:26:19Z H4ns: like "yeah fuck it NIL was specified, lets muck about with the slots nilly-willy"
2014-07-25T08:26:49Z |3b|: ah, somehow missed that part
2014-07-25T08:27:00Z |3b|: thanks for reading that for me :/
2014-07-25T08:27:04Z H4ns: :D
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2014-07-25T09:12:44Z hitecnologys: Is there any hack that'll let me write text into random Emacs buffer? I have several threads running in backgound and I want to log their activity but I don't want them putting all that garbage in my REPL. The only solution I can think of is putting all text in file and then `tailf log.txt` it.
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2014-07-25T09:17:02Z moore33: Hmm, maybe some slime trick?
2014-07-25T09:17:39Z prxq: hitecnologys: there is an emacs shell. you can run taif there :-)
2014-07-25T09:17:45Z prxq: tailf even
2014-07-25T09:17:54Z hitecnologys: prxq: yes, that's what I thought of.
2014-07-25T09:18:06Z moore33: hitecnologys: On unix/linux you could probably open and write to the pty that's associated with an emacs shell.
2014-07-25T09:18:14Z hitecnologys: prxq: but that requires me putting all the garbage in file.
2014-07-25T09:18:36Z prxq: you can also use netcat and send the crud through a port
2014-07-25T09:19:41Z prxq: i'll paste something
2014-07-25T09:20:18Z hitecnologys: Oh, brilliant! I think I'll just write logging server and then send all data that needs to be logged to it. This way I can evade using Emacs (I prefer VIM) and also probably make use of it later.
2014-07-25T09:20:28Z |3b|: might be able to hack slime-mrepl contrib into something like that (or maybe even use it directly)
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2014-07-25T09:20:49Z hitecnologys: |3b|: I'll take a look at it.
2014-07-25T09:21:01Z hitecnologys: OK, thanks for help, moore33, prxq and |3b|.
2014-07-25T09:21:08Z prxq: hitecnologys: http://paste.lisp.org/+32IN
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2014-07-25T09:21:32Z prxq: that's the ducttape solution
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2014-07-25T09:22:02Z hitecnologys: Oh, that's quite nice.
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2014-07-25T09:28:19Z hitecnologys: Is there any way I can make log4cl output to custom stream without changing all the logging code I've got all around my project?
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2014-07-25T09:43:36Z enfors: If I felt particularly silly one day and decided to make my own toy Lisp engine using flex / bison, would it be a bad idea somehow to abandon Lisp's car/cdr paradigm for lists, and add a third value - so I'd have data/child/next instead of car/cdr? Then if I made a list, "child" would just be nil, but if I wanted to make a tree, each node could have both children (or a pointer to the first child, really) as well as data of its 
2014-07-25T09:43:36Z enfors: would waste some space, but would there be other problems with it that I'm missing?
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2014-07-25T09:46:45Z |3b|: i think clisp has some optional "more than 2 slot" cons
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2014-07-25T09:47:22Z enfors: Oh really? I had no idea.
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2014-07-25T09:49:43Z |3b|: hmm, not finding it, wonder if i confused it with something else
2014-07-25T09:52:25Z H4ns: enfors: if you don't have c[ad]r* and cons in your lisp, you're free to represent lists in a different way internally.
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2014-07-25T09:53:02Z H4ns: enfors: if, on the other hand, you have them, it would be confusing to people used to cons cells if they'd logically have more than two slots.
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2014-07-25T09:59:53Z mal_: maclisp had hunks as n-size conses
2014-07-25T10:00:42Z mal_: accessor cxr, mutator rplacx
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2014-07-25T10:43:15Z pjb: |3b|: it's a compilation option for clisp to add a slot to conses.
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2014-07-25T11:21:30Z enfors: H4ns: Ok, thanks.
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2014-07-25T11:33:32Z Guthur: are circular dependencies between packages inheritently bad, or just awkward?
2014-07-25T11:34:15Z H4ns: Guthur: they don't blend well with one-package-per-file, but other than that, why would they be bad?
2014-07-25T11:34:53Z Guthur: H4ns: yeah i think i'm having trouble because i was adhering to a one package per file style
2014-07-25T11:35:40Z Guthur: H4ns: I couldn't really think of hard reason why its bad, so thought i'd throw it out here to get some feedback
2014-07-25T11:35:58Z Guthur: possibly some new insight
2014-07-25T11:36:07Z |3b|: could be a sign you aren't dividing things up properly?
2014-07-25T11:37:13Z Guthur: |3b|: yeah, and that would be my first assumption as well, but here is by simple scenario...
2014-07-25T11:38:15Z Guthur: i have an App class that holds some top level info like screen dimensions and then I have camera that wants said dimensions
2014-07-25T11:38:47Z Guthur: my current train of thought is to use Cells to declare a dependency between the camera and app
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2014-07-25T11:39:49Z Guthur: I could tell the App to update the camera, so there is no circular dependency, but this mean the top level objects would become responsible for propogating data
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2014-07-25T11:40:22Z Guthur: or I can tell camera to base it's view-matrix off the dimensions from App
2014-07-25T11:40:49Z Guthur: but then that brings about a sort of circularity
2014-07-25T11:41:27Z Guthur: which doesn't really pose any problem at runtime, just compilation
2014-07-25T11:42:31Z Guthur: ...and even compilation could be solved by rearranging packages and having some defgenerics
2014-07-25T11:42:43Z |3b|: maybe a "thing with dimensions" mixin?
2014-07-25T11:42:59Z |3b|: or a shared dimensions object
2014-07-25T11:43:02Z Guthur: ohh, yeah
2014-07-25T11:43:11Z |3b|: or just ignore it and let it be circular :)
2014-07-25T11:43:29Z |3b|: "thing with dimensions" protocol works just as well
2014-07-25T11:44:06Z |3b|: (which is your "having some generics" option)
2014-07-25T11:44:20Z |3b|: mixin is just an easy way to implement that
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2014-07-25T11:44:33Z Guthur: indeed
2014-07-25T11:44:57Z Guthur: and in truth mixin might be clear option overall
2014-07-25T11:45:25Z Guthur: because it's a situation that will likely arise in number of different guises
2014-07-25T11:45:34Z |3b|: also consider use cases like nested windows, or multiple cameras
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2014-07-25T11:47:39Z Guthur: yeah, though you have just made me realise that making the camera inherently dependent on the app is not what i would want in the situation of multiple cameras
2014-07-25T11:48:01Z Guthur: and with that realisation i will actually solve this one cirularity
2014-07-25T11:49:04Z Guthur: because the top level object will create the camera and pass declare the dependency
2014-07-25T11:49:59Z Guthur: this should be possible and still allow the Cells dataflow rules to auto update the view matrix
2014-07-25T11:50:48Z Guthur: anyway, still need some thinking about this one
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2014-07-25T14:13:48Z AeroNotix: H4ns: the audio is terrible on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex3M5aXo8-k
2014-07-25T14:13:54Z AeroNotix: are there any other recordings?
2014-07-25T14:14:09Z H4ns: AeroNotix: no.
2014-07-25T14:14:14Z AeroNotix: Shame!
2014-07-25T14:14:32Z AeroNotix: There's not many talks on that kind of thing for Lisp
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2014-07-25T14:16:20Z Guthur: H4ns: have you looked over Googles style guide for CL?
2014-07-25T14:16:36Z Guthur: anything that you would strongly disagree with
2014-07-25T14:17:19Z H4ns: Guthur: there are a few things that i don't quite like, but it is generally reasonable.
2014-07-25T14:17:57Z brown`: I agree.
2014-07-25T14:18:03Z Guthur: for the lack of anything better it seems a reasonable yardstick
2014-07-25T14:18:59Z moore33: What's a "properly configured GNU Emacs?" :)
2014-07-25T14:19:13Z H4ns: "Use CLOS appropriately."
2014-07-25T14:19:41Z H4ns: there are a number of rules in that guide that are too broad and don't give helpful advice.
2014-07-25T14:20:35Z brown`: The guide was initially written when a research project started to use Common Lisp.
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2014-07-25T14:20:50Z moore33: "You should include neither authorship nor copyright information in a source file." Is that a Google-only thing?
2014-07-25T14:21:14Z brown`: Later, Google bought ITA and the guide went through a bunch of revisions.
2014-07-25T14:21:16Z H4ns: moore33: i find that to be a rather prudent rule
2014-07-25T14:22:05Z moore33: hmm
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2014-07-25T14:23:04Z brown`: It's interesting that inside ITA there were two different schools of Lisp style -- flight search and reservation system.  The first is more concerned with performance, etc.
2014-07-25T14:23:23Z Guthur`: you could certainly have some files with larger copyright notice than code
2014-07-25T14:23:23Z Guthur`: i'm no expert on copyright but surely a project copyright notice should be sufficent
2014-07-25T14:23:27Z Guthur`: not like every page in a book as a copyright notice, for instance
2014-07-25T14:23:43Z H4ns: brown`: i remember that i had to work with code from the search side of things and was horrified.
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2014-07-25T14:23:56Z Xach: I am still curious about a system to fingerprint individual CL authors by their style. i think it could be done.
2014-07-25T14:23:57Z H4ns: brown`: (being on the reservation system)
2014-07-25T14:24:29Z prxq: H4ns: why is that a prudent rule, in your opinion?
2014-07-25T14:24:46Z Guthur`: Xach: but surely that is a moving target, especially for "younger" CL developers
2014-07-25T14:25:29Z H4ns: prxq: because putting names in source files is not useful.  and licenses are not useful either.
2014-07-25T14:25:30Z Guthur`: I feel my style has changed quite significantly
2014-07-25T14:25:34Z Guthur`: but maybe there are tells i would not consider
2014-07-25T14:25:36Z Xach: Guthur`: it is not that interesting to fingerprint people who have no style
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2014-07-25T14:26:31Z Guthur`: Xach: I just feel it can develop over time
2014-07-25T14:26:35Z prxq: "no style" often means "quite a marked style I happen to dislike" :-)
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2014-07-25T14:29:54Z Xach: prxq: to me it means making the 1000 choices available when writing a given file in an inconsistent way
2014-07-25T14:30:31Z p_l: Guthur`: regarding copyright notice in files - depends on licenses, some licenses specifically apply to individual files
2014-07-25T14:31:28Z p_l: (it's one of the problems between GPL and CDDL - CDDL applies to files, GPL to whole projects)
2014-07-25T14:31:36Z Guthur`: p_l: that's quite the special case though
2014-07-25T14:31:37Z Guthur`: if the file is individually copyrighted then of course
2014-07-25T14:33:23Z H4ns: i think a license which requires itself to be put into every file is crap and should be ignored.
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2014-07-25T14:34:58Z p_l: H4ns: not complete license, just notice to inform which license the file is under (so you can easily just share the file itself)
2014-07-25T14:36:29Z prxq: you can put the license at the end of the file, with a one line comment on top
2014-07-25T14:36:45Z prxq: otherwise it is annoying, I agree
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2014-07-25T14:37:31Z p_l: prxq: if you didn't modify the license, you can just fill in the blanks at the top like "copyright John Doe, file is under license X, found at <url>"
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2014-07-25T14:38:40Z foom: I think really that is intended for internal code. For externally released code, putting info in each file is somewhat useful.
2014-07-25T14:39:17Z brown`: What do you folks think of mandating a formatting tool, such as gofmt or clang-format?
2014-07-25T14:39:33Z foom: I would love it if one existed, other than in emacs.
2014-07-25T14:39:38Z H4ns: brown`: i'd find that great, too.
2014-07-25T14:39:53Z H4ns: brown`: but formatting common lisp with a tool?  won't fly, imo
2014-07-25T14:40:04Z foom: I think it's ridiculous that lisp formatting has to be done by a Properly Configured Emacs.
2014-07-25T14:40:08Z Xach: I'd like to see one just to see how it worked.
2014-07-25T14:40:18Z brown`: H4ns: Do you think it's easier to format Go or C++?
2014-07-25T14:40:24Z foom: Yes.
2014-07-25T14:40:27Z Xach: the curse and promise of readtables
2014-07-25T14:40:32Z H4ns: brown`: yes.  because those are bounded languages.
2014-07-25T14:40:35Z foom: Forget readtables, how about macros?
2014-07-25T14:40:44Z foom: CL formatting depends on the parameter list of the macro you're calling
2014-07-25T14:41:13Z prxq: it will just look a little shitty in places, but that is true for other langs
2014-07-25T14:41:28Z prxq: some of them look shitty no matter the formatting :-)
2014-07-25T14:41:41Z foom: It'd look more than a little shitty.
2014-07-25T14:41:48Z Xach: formatting a program requires a database. that database is the program.
2014-07-25T14:41:48Z H4ns: prxq: no.  it makes a big difference whether code is indented as code or as list of arguments.
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2014-07-25T14:42:07Z Xach: the query language ain't so hot either
2014-07-25T14:42:25Z moore33: Just prefix every macro that needs special formatting with "with-" :)
2014-07-25T14:42:34Z foom: Or do-
2014-07-25T14:42:45Z Xach: or def. except :default-initargs.
2014-07-25T14:43:11Z brown`: Forget about macros and readtables for a moment.  A tool will do something reasonable 99% of the time.  Are you willing to accept some bad formatting in exchange for the automation?
2014-07-25T14:43:18Z moore33: Problem solved.
2014-07-25T14:43:30Z H4ns: common lisp is a hopeless language.  some useful things, like an automated formatter and a perfect build system, will never exist for it
2014-07-25T14:43:33Z foom: Yes, but not at the level of getting every macro that uses &body wrong.
2014-07-25T14:44:03Z foom: But if it's reasonably good, I'm willing to have some worse-than-manual formatting if it means never having to worry about formatting.
2014-07-25T14:44:12Z moore33: I don't think I've ever used a code formatting tool in any language.... well, maybe to import some code from elsewhere into my own.
2014-07-25T14:44:18Z prxq: do people actually worry about formatting?
2014-07-25T14:44:20Z foom: I really like clang-format for C++.
2014-07-25T14:44:54Z H4ns: prxq: i do not accept formatting mistakes when i review code.
2014-07-25T14:44:57Z Xach: prxq: I worry about it.
2014-07-25T14:45:11Z foom: Yeah, when you are developing with multiple people
2014-07-25T14:45:21Z foom: You need to tell them not to format their code wrong (or, differently)
2014-07-25T14:45:35Z foom: And then it's a pain for them to go fix it all, and remember to do so every time.
2014-07-25T14:46:16Z foom: E.g. I find writing code in Google's C++ formatting style quite painful. Having to wrap every line at 80 chars is ridiculous.
2014-07-25T14:46:27Z foom: But! I never need to do that, I just run clang-format, and boom, properly formatted, no pain.
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2014-07-25T14:59:11Z moore33: foom: But you eventually need to deal with the wrapped code, right? Like when you need to fix or add to that initial, stream-of-consciousness version...
2014-07-25T15:00:31Z foom: that's okay, it's not painful to read, only to write.
2014-07-25T15:00:43Z foom: If I fix or add it, I run clang-format again.
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2014-07-25T15:02:15Z moore33: foom:Heh, interesting.
2014-07-25T15:02:35Z moore33: I just let auto-fill-mode do its thing.
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2014-07-25T15:17:38Z dim: is there a way with cffi:foreign-string-to-lisp to use an :encoding that will not incur any check nor change of the source data?
2014-07-25T15:17:48Z dim: e.g. with PostgreSQL that's called SQL_ASCII
2014-07-25T15:18:09Z foom: People usually call that iso-8859-1
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2014-07-25T15:19:19Z dim: that will not accept data that isn't valid in that encoding, right?
2014-07-25T15:19:29Z Xach: there is no data that isn't valid in iso-8859-1
2014-07-25T15:19:35Z dim: or you're saying there's no such data, you might just make no sense of it
2014-07-25T15:19:36Z dim: yeah right
2014-07-25T15:19:38Z Xach: every byte maps to a character
2014-07-25T15:19:51Z dim: that might be exactly what I need to do here then
2014-07-25T15:20:14Z dim: context: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/99 -- if you need it/are interested into it
2014-07-25T15:20:43Z dim: basically sqlite calls into cffi that uses babel and cffi:*default-foreign-encoding* is :utf-8
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2014-07-25T16:10:20Z dim: I don't get it, (let ((cffi:*default-foreign-encoding* :ISO-8859-1)) (run-commands "/Users/dim/dev/temp/issue-99.load")) doesn't seem to affect the default encoding at all
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2014-07-25T16:10:46Z dim: in the interactive debugger I have the encoding slot to nil, so the default dymanic var should prevail
2014-07-25T16:10:51Z dim: I'm kind at a loss here
2014-07-25T16:11:30Z spockokt: morning #lisp
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2014-07-25T16:15:20Z dim: oooh, ok, threads, bindings, etc
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2014-07-25T16:19:34Z jasom: the first 256 unicode code-points map to windows-1252 which is what most versions mean by iso-8859-1
2014-07-25T16:21:10Z jasom: oh, I'm wrong they actually map to windows-1252 it appears
2014-07-25T16:21:18Z jasom: er iso-8859-1 rather
2014-07-25T16:23:23Z jasom: #x80 through #x9f are different in the two (iso-8859-1 and unicode have control characters there; windows-1252 has more rarely used western-european latin characters, plus the euro sign)
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2014-07-25T16:27:31Z phadthai: the euro sign was added in ISO-8859-15 if I remember
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2014-07-25T16:28:13Z phadthai: I'm not sure how similar to windows-1252 that one is
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2014-07-25T16:29:48Z dim: yeah, euro sign is in latin9, that is iso-8859-15
2014-07-25T16:30:01Z dim: and it's not the same as windows-1252 either
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2014-07-25T17:50:41Z solidus_: hey guys, i'm trying to output something from different threads to the std output and i have two questions: is *standard-output* stream thread safe?
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2014-07-25T17:51:01Z solidus_: and why is it that i have to write (format #.*standard-output* ...) for it to work
2014-07-25T17:51:12Z solidus_: what does "#." mean?
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2014-07-25T17:53:31Z p_l: #. executes the code at read time, which in this case I suspect passes the value of *standard-output* that was bound when you created the function
2014-07-25T17:53:57Z p_l: which probably let you get around to grabbing the same output stream from different streams
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2014-07-25T17:56:00Z phadthai: solidus_: streams might or might not be thread-safe depending on implementation; if using bordeaux-threads for portability, also make sure to use a lock/mutex around writes to them which need to be synchronized
2014-07-25T17:56:56Z solidus_: thanks guys :)
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2014-07-25T18:08:12Z pjb: solidus_: perhaps you were confused because *standard-output* is a special variable, therefore its bindings are dynamic.  You can capture its value in a lexical binding: (let ((out *standard-output*)) (lambda () (format out "tralala") #| and don't forget: |# (finish-output out)))
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2014-07-25T19:00:36Z jasom: actualy #.*standard-output* isn't even guaranteed to be loadable without a make-load-form right?
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2014-07-25T19:03:25Z stassats: make-load-form for what?
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2014-07-25T19:04:45Z jasom: a stream
2014-07-25T19:05:26Z stassats: if it's your own stream, maybe
2014-07-25T19:05:48Z stassats: in any case, #.*standard-output* is a terrible idea
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2014-07-25T20:51:10Z Bike: you can't serialize streams, at least not the built in ones, can you?
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2014-07-25T21:26:28Z jasom: Bike: I think that's up to the implementation
2014-07-25T21:26:47Z Bike: oh, yeah i guess they could define something
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2014-07-25T21:39:36Z rpg: minor brag: first patch offered to ABCL just now...
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2014-07-25T22:01:33Z ehu: rpg: thanks!
2014-07-25T22:02:09Z rpg: ehu: Hope the patch works out. ABCL has been a huge help to me in figuring out how to extend an enormous Java program....
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2014-07-25T22:05:26Z rpg: I added some documentation to the JFFI page on the Wiki, too.
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2014-07-26T03:32:23Z scragnolng: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2014-07-26T03:56:21Z theos: indeed
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2014-07-26T04:26:27Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-07-26T04:26:34Z p_l: 'morning……
2014-07-26T04:27:00Z kristof: Good morning.
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2014-07-26T04:51:50Z beach: I think we need a documentation system inspired by DITA.
2014-07-26T04:52:12Z beach: But instead of XML we use CLOS.
2014-07-26T04:52:25Z beach: And instead of files, we use in-core data structures.
2014-07-26T04:53:41Z beach: We generalize the concept of a DITA "topic" so that it can contain virtually any named node in the graph.
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2014-07-26T04:57:21Z kristof: beach: DITA?
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2014-07-26T04:57:58Z beach: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_Information_Typing_Architecture
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2014-07-26T05:02:21Z beach: Basically, it defines "topics" that are kind of the leaves of the graph.  Then it has separate structuring facilities so that topics can be arranged differently in a book and on a web site.
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2014-07-26T05:03:20Z kristof: beach: I had been thinking about that problem, before. Books are inherently linear, but the web doesn't inherently impose such structure
2014-07-26T05:03:42Z beach: Exactly.
2014-07-26T05:04:16Z beach: So by separating the essence of the document (the topics) from the structure, one can reuse the topics in different structures.
2014-07-26T05:05:49Z kristof: I like that idea a lot.
2014-07-26T05:06:00Z kristof: beach: Have you ever heard of subject-oriented programming?
2014-07-26T05:06:12Z beach: Can't say I have.
2014-07-26T05:06:22Z beach: Or maybe I have, and then forgot.
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2014-07-26T05:06:58Z kristof: beach: The gist is that users of the same object will often need different "views"
2014-07-26T05:07:20Z kristof: beach: You could simply put all the different slots in the same object, but that just bloats the object
2014-07-26T05:07:46Z beach: Yes, I see.
2014-07-26T05:07:50Z kristof: beach: You could have different objects for different users, but that means you have to update both atomically whenever you want to make changes
2014-07-26T05:08:05Z beach: It seems to be related to what Pascal Costanza invented.  I can't remember what he called it again.
2014-07-26T05:08:14Z kristof: Context oriented programming
2014-07-26T05:08:20Z beach: right.
2014-07-26T05:08:24Z kristof: I'll be right back
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2014-07-26T05:15:22Z kristof: beach: Anyway, subject oriented programming methodology simply defines an "essential" object, and then users can build on those objects with their own subjective views
2014-07-26T05:16:05Z beach: Yes, I think I get the picture from reading the Wikipedia page.
2014-07-26T05:16:17Z kristof: beach: I think SOP is an intellectual dead end, and the fact that most research on it stopped by this century means other people think so, too, but I really do like the idea that you can extract different interfaces to the same essential object
2014-07-26T05:16:55Z kristof: beach: You can do that with Fare's lisp interface library
2014-07-26T05:17:34Z kristof: beach: Since interfaces are first class objects, you can define a method on an interface that returns a new interface which you can pass around to other functions to dispatch on
2014-07-26T05:17:49Z beach: Right.
2014-07-26T05:18:55Z kristof: beach: Anyway, I think that would be useful for part of what you were talking about, which is 1) having a central documentation structure and 2) having to export it to different serialization formats
2014-07-26T05:19:58Z beach: Yeah, maybe so.
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2014-07-26T05:21:26Z beach: I am not smart enough at this time of day to think it through.  Plus, I don't have any experience with subject-oriented programming, so it might be hard for me to imagine how it could be used.
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2014-07-26T06:39:42Z allenj12: Hey, so i am interested in music programming lately because I saw this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY1FSsUV-8c. What library is he using? The only lisp i really know is clojure, is there comparable libraries for multiple lisp dialects?
2014-07-26T06:40:19Z H4ns: allenj12: overtone for clojure is the project with the most traction right now
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2014-07-26T06:40:37Z H4ns: allenj12: there is a bunch of stuff that works with common lisp, but each of them is relatively obscure.
2014-07-26T06:41:22Z allenj12: H4ns: i guess thats really good news for me then since its the only lisp i touched (and love to death)
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2014-07-26T06:43:38Z allenj12: H4ns: thank you
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2014-07-26T08:44:01Z tormar: I have played a lot With different Lisps (Clojure, Scheme, some CL). I love it, but I'm a Vim user, and now I'm trying to get comfortable With CL/Emacs/Slime - and I find it difficult. I have LispStick on Windows (SBCL). Any recommondations on how to grok my environment better?
2014-07-26T08:45:14Z beach: tormar: Some Vim users use Slimv instead of Slime.
2014-07-26T08:45:54Z |3b|: some also use evil or vile or similar for making emacs act like vim
2014-07-26T08:45:55Z tormar: ... like how does Slime work behind the scene, how do I best transition from working in Emacs repl to run unit tests, build an executable and so on?!
2014-07-26T08:46:45Z beach: tormar: You put your code in files and then you use SLIME to compile and load those files.
2014-07-26T08:46:52Z tormar: I'll check out Slimv and evil, but I really don't mind Learning Emacs (used it a lot 15 years ago)
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2014-07-26T08:47:09Z |3b|: slime opens a socket to a running lisp implementation, and sends forms to the lisp to be evaluated. it also hooks into various implementation features to allow nicer debugger etc
2014-07-26T08:47:14Z beach: tormar: Then you write an ASDF system to compile and load all the files for you.
2014-07-26T08:48:46Z tormar: Beach: ASDF, ok. What about quicklisp, does that use ASDF, and is that recommended?
2014-07-26T08:49:01Z |3b|: it does, and is
2014-07-26T08:49:48Z beach agrees with |3b|.
2014-07-26T08:50:20Z tormar: Beach: How do you normally Control paths With Slime / ASDF / quicklisp? Not sure that is a good question, but I'm not sure I know what I don't know, if you know what I mean?! :P
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2014-07-26T08:51:45Z beach: tormar: I use the old method of ASDF, i.e., put the path of the directory of the ASDF file in asdf:*central-registry*, because I can't for my life understand the ASDF documentation.  Someone else might have better advice.
2014-07-26T08:51:47Z tormar: Beach: ... like how do I let quicklisp know where to look for Projects? (I Guess I have to find some documentation for this)
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2014-07-26T08:52:45Z beach: tormar: Right, there is a subdirectory of ~/quicklisp where you can put your own projects.  I can't remember the name of it now.
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2014-07-26T08:54:15Z tormar: Beach: ok, thanks. In general, is the emacs/slime/sbcl environment better on Linux, or is it ok to be unsing Windows?
2014-07-26T08:54:47Z beach: tormar: I don't use Windows, but I have heard that it is significantly better on Linux.
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2014-07-26T08:55:46Z Shinmera: beach: ~/quicklisp/local-projects
2014-07-26T08:55:55Z tormar: Beach: I expected that would be the answer :)
2014-07-26T08:56:11Z phadthai: I also don't use Windows, but it seems that ccl is a popular implementation on it too
2014-07-26T08:56:21Z beach: Shinmera: Yeah, I saw it.  Thanks.
2014-07-26T08:57:04Z Shinmera: a bit of an annoying thing is that you need to remove the system-index.txt file within it every time you put new .asd files into it somewhere
2014-07-26T08:57:04Z phadthai: commercial implementations also come with their own integrated environments, and some have free/trial editions
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2014-07-26T08:57:45Z tormar: Shinmera: I've tried ccl previously, and I found it be be fast. But I liked that LispStick gave me a Complete setup, and it came With SBCL.
2014-07-26T08:58:22Z Shinmera: Not sure why you're addressing me
2014-07-26T08:59:06Z tormar: I think my NeXT step will be to read some tutorials on ASDF
2014-07-26T08:59:42Z tormar: Shinmera: Sorry, I might be using IRC Conventions wrong? N00b in the medium
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2014-07-26T09:00:11Z beach: tormar: You will probably learn enough to get started by looking at some existing ASDF files.
2014-07-26T09:00:12Z Shinmera: I never talked about CCL, LispStick or SBCL, so I don't know why you told me what you did
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2014-07-26T09:01:04Z Shinmera: I wrote an intro article to asdf, but I don't know if it'll be of much help http://blog.tymoon.eu/p/267-ASDF_and_Quicklisp_-_Confession_10#blog
2014-07-26T09:01:05Z tormar: Shinmera: Ah, should have been phadthai - my bad!
2014-07-26T09:02:30Z tormar: Shinmera: Looks like a good startingpoint at least. Thanks!
2014-07-26T09:03:29Z beach: Shinmera: I thought the consensus was to not use a particular package for the system definition.  I do (in-package #:common-lisp-user) and then (asdf:defsystem ...)
2014-07-26T09:04:02Z Shinmera: beach: I didn't know about there being a consensus on that
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2014-07-26T09:04:26Z beach: Shinmera: I might remember wrong.  I seem to have read it somewhere.  Maybe consensus is too strong.
2014-07-26T09:04:39Z Shinmera: Well either way works, I suppose
2014-07-26T09:04:47Z beach: Yes, sure.
2014-07-26T09:05:09Z Shinmera: I don't recall where I picked up the extra package thing either
2014-07-26T09:05:20Z beach: tormar: You will be fine with the ASDF template provided by Shinmera.
2014-07-26T09:06:12Z tormar: Beach: great
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2014-07-26T09:08:42Z Shinmera: Does anyone know why ASDF doesn't do :serial by default?
2014-07-26T09:09:43Z Shinmera: (I'm vaguely guessing backwards compat, but I'm not sure about that)
2014-07-26T09:10:45Z beach: If it did :serial t when there are no dependencies then nothing would break I would think.
2014-07-26T09:11:28Z Shinmera: Well in essence it's always going to load things in some order, so it's always serial if not implicitly so. I'm guessing it might be a remainder of an effort to maybe allow parallel compilation or something?
2014-07-26T09:11:50Z beach: Ah, yes, that's possible.
2014-07-26T09:12:42Z Shinmera: I recall reading in one of Fare's texts that there was an asdf extension that did that at some point
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2014-07-26T09:17:11Z Shinmera: And now for something completely different: Does anyone have experience with FF calls to fortran libraries? (Specifically intel's MKL)
2014-07-26T09:17:32Z Shinmera: I tried googling but couldn't find anything of worth about it, unfortunately.
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2014-07-26T09:20:22Z phadthai: hmm if you could find C bindings/libraries to those, you could then interface to that C library, but there might be fortran-specific FFI features in some implementations or libraries, I also don't personally know any
2014-07-26T09:20:53Z Shinmera: having to wrap it in C would be unfortunate.
2014-07-26T09:21:21Z phadthai: hmm cliki.net has some matches for fortran
2014-07-26T09:21:46Z Shinmera: I'm asking because my dad is a Fortran old-timer and he'd be very interested in being able to use those libs from Lisp
2014-07-26T09:22:17Z Shinmera: Yeah I know that there are blas/lapack bindings, but that's not what he needs
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2014-07-26T09:55:11Z loz1: hi, is there cross-implementation process library, like bordeaux-threads?
2014-07-26T09:58:15Z H4ns: loz1: you mean something like trivial-shell?
2014-07-26T09:58:47Z H4ns: i think uiop has something that is more advanced, but i'm not sure.
2014-07-26T09:59:08Z Shinmera-: iirc uiop has the 'best' process call thing but I might be wrong about that
2014-07-26T09:59:13Z |3b|: is there an easy way to limit a signed number to N bits?
2014-07-26T09:59:39Z |3b|: (not counting the leading 1s in negative numbers)
2014-07-26T10:00:07Z H4ns: |3b|: what do you mean by "limit"?
2014-07-26T10:00:25Z |3b|: act like C more or less
2014-07-26T10:00:39Z H4ns: wrap around?  i don't think so.
2014-07-26T10:01:35Z |3b|: ok
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2014-07-26T10:02:02Z loz1: H4ns: as I see api it can only execute commands synchroniously
2014-07-26T10:02:17Z loz1: *trivial-shell
2014-07-26T10:02:34Z beach: H4ns: Didn't Krystof write something like that for SBCL?  Modulo arithmetic.
2014-07-26T10:02:42Z H4ns: loz1: do you need cross-implementation?  if not, sb's private fuctions do everything.
2014-07-26T10:02:49Z |3b|: it has that for unsigned, not sure about signed though
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2014-07-26T10:02:58Z beach: Oh, I see.
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2014-07-26T10:06:42Z |3b|: looks like there are sbcl internals that do what i want, so good enough for now
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2014-07-26T10:19:41Z Krystof: mask-signed-field is the magic operator you want
2014-07-26T10:19:47Z Krystof: its interface is all wrong
2014-07-26T10:23:47Z |3b|: yeah, that's what i found
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2014-07-26T11:25:15Z cl_user: Hi! Does anyone recomend me a good/easy library to start learning GUI programming in Common Lisp?
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2014-07-26T11:26:42Z beach: cl_user: What kind of GUI programs are you planning to write?
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2014-07-26T11:29:12Z hitecnologys: cl_user: CommonQt.
2014-07-26T11:29:40Z Shinmera: I've only used CommonQt so I can only suggest that. I don't know how 'easy' it would be to start with though
2014-07-26T11:31:23Z H4ns: cl_user: there is no really easy way to create gui applications with cl using open source tools, unless you're willing to put up with the ugliness and relatively low performance of ltk
2014-07-26T11:31:53Z H4ns: cl_user: commonqt is probably your best bet if you're serious.  the commercial lisp implementations come with documented gui toolkits that work well, too.
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2014-07-26T11:32:50Z cl_user: oh, i only need for a simple frontend with form, buttons, textboxes, etc. When I said easy i meant "not spend many time reading about the tool"
2014-07-26T11:33:17Z Shinmera: CommonQt should work fine then, imo
2014-07-26T11:34:04Z Shinmera: The currency conversion dialog example should get you started easily enough
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2014-07-26T11:36:57Z Guthur thinks GUI programs are pretty bad way for learning a language
2014-07-26T11:37:03Z cl_user: ok, thanks Shinmera. I'll take a look to CommonQT. I have been searching in cliki.net and there are a lot of alternatives but don't explain details about these. Thanks again.
2014-07-26T11:37:56Z Shinmera: Guthur: I agree with that
2014-07-26T11:38:19Z Shinmera: Especially with CommonQt since that's less lisp and more "using C++ from lisp"
2014-07-26T11:38:47Z Guthur: The problem might be even worse for CL because unless its a native CL implementation or a really good binding you will have to deal with decidedly unlisp code
2014-07-26T11:39:01Z beach: cl_user: You might consider using Hunchentoot and HTML if what you are writing fits.
2014-07-26T11:39:05Z Shinmera: also: freeing your objects manually
2014-07-26T11:39:12Z H4ns: hence ltk
2014-07-26T11:40:54Z Guthur: if ltk is more lispy then I would certainly encourage that as a starting point if one is eager to produce a GUI application
2014-07-26T11:41:10Z Guthur: and don't worry about performance, if it's a learning app it wont matter anyway
2014-07-26T11:41:33Z H4ns: http://www.peter-herth.de/ltk/ltkdoc/
2014-07-26T11:42:23Z H4ns: it is an interface to a toolkit written in c (tk), but as tk is tailored towards a dynamic language (tcl), the lisp interface is rather direct.
2014-07-26T11:42:53Z cl_user: ok, i copy that url H4ns, thanks.
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2014-07-26T11:53:44Z cl_user: ok so, I'll take a look to ltk & commonQT. Thanks you everybody for give me a starting point with GUIs.
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2014-07-26T11:54:32Z AeroNotix: can someone point me to a good user space threading library? Akin to say, Erlang or Go?
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2014-07-26T11:56:18Z H4ns: there is none that has seen significant adoption, but see http://www.cliki.net/concurrency
2014-07-26T11:57:50Z AeroNotix: H4ns: cheers friend
2014-07-26T11:58:21Z AeroNotix: all i really want is clojure's concurrency model in CL
2014-07-26T11:58:30Z H4ns: only that?
2014-07-26T11:58:39Z AeroNotix: without the limitations of the JVM's threading model
2014-07-26T11:58:46Z AeroNotix: H4ns: perhaps a few more things here and there, yes :)
2014-07-26T11:58:58Z AeroNotix: maybe a couple of clojure's literals too
2014-07-26T11:59:20Z AeroNotix: H4ns: what about you?
2014-07-26T11:59:28Z loz1: what clojure concurrency model is?
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2014-07-26T11:59:48Z H4ns: AeroNotix: i'm happy with what i have.  i enjoy clojure, and common lisp.  also perl, lua, c++ here and there :)
2014-07-26T12:00:01Z AeroNotix: loz1: STM, essentially
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2014-07-26T12:00:19Z loz1: AeroNotix: have you seen http://stmx.org/ ?
2014-07-26T12:00:22Z AeroNotix: has some nice stuff, but it's using the JVM internally so it's cooperatively scheduled
2014-07-26T12:00:30Z H4ns: AeroNotix: wat?
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2014-07-26T12:00:43Z AeroNotix: H4ns: agents, go blocks
2014-07-26T12:00:46Z AeroNotix: all using thread pools internally
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2014-07-26T12:01:03Z AeroNotix: So, it's very easy to block a real thread
2014-07-26T12:01:16Z AeroNotix: whereas Erlang / Go are fully preemptive
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2014-07-26T12:01:35Z loz1: btw why nobody still made something like erlang processes?
2014-07-26T12:01:43Z H4ns: AeroNotix: is that where you are blocked from making progress with what you really want to write?
2014-07-26T12:02:08Z H4ns: loz1: look at the page that i've referred AeroNotix to.  there are dozens of libraries doing some part of it.
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2014-07-26T12:02:38Z AeroNotix: H4ns: pretty much -- in Erlang for example, a "process" has a number of reductions. This number is reduced whenever some work is done, certain things reduce it more and some less. When this number reaches 0 then that process is descheduled and another process in the Scheduler's run queue is swapped in
2014-07-26T12:02:44Z loz1: H4ns: i saw it, most of them are high level things for bordeaux threads
2014-07-26T12:02:49Z loz1: which are just threads
2014-07-26T12:03:02Z AeroNotix: the benefit is that you know fo r a fact that individual processes can never block a schedular in Erlang
2014-07-26T12:03:05Z AeroNotix: it's quite nice
2014-07-26T12:03:41Z loz1: the main thing in erlang concurrency is that these processes are scheduled over all available processors
2014-07-26T12:04:03Z AeroNotix: loz1: meh -- that's not the real benefit. Clojure will have true SMP as well
2014-07-26T12:04:09Z AeroNotix: the benefit is that they are properly preemptive
2014-07-26T12:04:26Z loz1: AeroNotix: how will true SMP use all processors?
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2014-07-26T12:04:59Z AeroNotix: what is that question really asking?
2014-07-26T12:05:01Z loz1: nvm, readed as STM)
2014-07-26T12:05:07Z AeroNotix: ok, phew
2014-07-26T12:05:31Z loz1: but smp is about using os threads, isn't it?
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2014-07-26T12:05:42Z AeroNotix: loz1: sure
2014-07-26T12:05:56Z AeroNotix: but that's an underlying architectural thing.
2014-07-26T12:06:21Z AeroNotix: The real benefit in these types of systems (user space threads) is that they properly share the processor time between your user-space threads
2014-07-26T12:06:29Z AeroNotix: otherwise you get into annoying problems
2014-07-26T12:06:43Z AeroNotix: see: anything with coop scheduling
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2014-07-26T12:09:32Z loz1: well, erlang processes are os-independent and lightweight
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2014-07-26T12:09:56Z AeroNotix: indeed
2014-07-26T12:10:07Z loz1: there are tradeoffs on both sides
2014-07-26T12:10:10Z loz1: as usual
2014-07-26T12:10:37Z AeroNotix: What are the negatives (aside from a more complicated vm) by using a system like Erlang's?
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2014-07-26T12:11:24Z loz1: AeroNotix: you have to implement them)
2014-07-26T12:11:35Z AeroNotix: SMOP :)
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2014-07-26T12:11:43Z theos: AMOP!
2014-07-26T12:12:06Z AeroNotix: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cl-muproc/ this looks promising
2014-07-26T12:12:38Z loz1: theos: amop?
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2014-07-26T12:13:25Z theos: loz1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_the_Metaobject_Protocol
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2014-07-26T12:14:53Z theos: hmm i still have to read that wonderful book
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2014-07-26T12:15:48Z loz1: AeroNotix: actually the roots of this problem are in os design, that there are processes and there are threads and they are not the same thing
2014-07-26T12:16:10Z H4ns: loz1: why would they be the same thing?
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2014-07-26T12:16:43Z AeroNotix: You need to have a separation between the "execution unit" of a processor, whatever that is and the things that run on it
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2014-07-26T12:16:56Z AeroNotix: there will always be more things that want to run than there are things that can run them
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2014-07-26T12:18:16Z loz1: AeroNotix: yes, that does not contradict with what i said
2014-07-26T12:18:39Z AeroNotix: I'm not sure -- it seems like it does. Why doesn't it?
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2014-07-26T12:53:52Z p_l: loz1: well, at least on Linux NPTL, processes and threads are pretty much the same thing, which leads to some... fun security bugs
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2014-07-26T12:56:28Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm trying to figure out what foreign-alloc calls to allocate the memory, would anyone mind explaining what the alien-sap line does in the src for %foreign-alloc here:  https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/cd3695c46fe181dc4f6c
2014-07-26T12:57:07Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: do you know M-.?
2014-07-26T12:57:17Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: if not, use it.
2014-07-26T12:57:44Z p_l: M-. is wonderful
2014-07-26T12:57:46Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: you should also make sure that your logical pathname host for sbcl's sources is properly set up so that you can navigate to the system sources.
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2014-07-26T13:04:20Z joe-w-bimedina: Thank you very much for that great information:) and I just found a link for how to "make sure logical pathname host for sbcl's sources is properly set up" so thanks for providing the information to help me complete the task as well
2014-07-26T13:06:15Z Guthur: don't forget M-, as well
2014-07-26T13:06:15Z Guthur: the inverse of M-.
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2014-07-26T13:07:09Z H4ns: yeah, essential
2014-07-26T13:07:34Z joe-w-bimedina: I got that one memorized yesterday, but thanks, at least I would have had it by today,  been using that all the time too
2014-07-26T13:07:58Z hitecnologys: Bleh, too bad slimv doesn't have them.
2014-07-26T13:08:23Z H4ns: one more reason to finally give up on it and learn using emacs
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2014-07-26T13:09:01Z hitecnologys: I've been using Emacs for over a year. I just like VIM more.
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2014-07-26T13:09:21Z hitecnologys: But in fact, none of them suites me complete.y
2014-07-26T13:09:34Z hitecnologys: s/.y/ly./
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2014-07-26T17:31:37Z ehu_: on common-lisp.net, there's a directory /cliki which seems to hold a copy of an entire VM. anybody any idea why?
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2014-07-26T17:33:57Z jdoles: ehu_: free backups!
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2014-07-26T18:07:14Z pjb: ehu_: all executables contain a copy of an entire VM!
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2014-07-26T18:38:15Z ehu_: pjb: :-) I meant an entire OS.
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2014-07-26T20:15:52Z sykopomp: AeroNotix: there is a performance cost with Erlang's process model, and pretty significant complexity when it comes to implementation. OTOH, Erlang's shared-nothing model means you get to do some pretty cool stuff at the GC level :)
2014-07-26T20:16:10Z AeroNotix: J a,read
2014-07-26T20:16:16Z AeroNotix: oops drunk
2014-07-26T20:16:25Z AeroNotix: I already mentioned the complexity
2014-07-26T20:17:03Z sykopomp: for some reason, lots of compiler/runtime folks just plain give up after trying to implement a scheduler like Erlang's. The Rust folks apparently gave up on it recently and just went back to plain threading because they didn't know how to pull off Erlang's task-stealing scheduler.
2014-07-26T20:17:05Z AeroNotix: Sure, it could be slower -- depending what you're doing. Erlang allows you to be "more concurrent" which makes it easier to attain concurrent algorithms
2014-07-26T20:17:49Z AeroNotix: Could you manually make a schedular for you particular work? Sure!
2014-07-26T20:18:03Z AeroNotix: Is it more efficient {in time, developer hours}? No!
2014-07-26T20:18:49Z sykopomp: you can't (shouldn't?) really isolate Erlang's process creation/scheduling from its other features. All of Erlang kinda works together to have the feature work well.
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2014-07-26T20:20:56Z AeroNotix: There are other (separate) parts of Erlang that work well
2014-07-26T20:21:12Z sykopomp: at the same time, Go and Haskell are both fairly performance-oriented and they still have the concurrency model, so it's not like it's gonna kill your perf that bad :)
2014-07-26T20:21:14Z AeroNotix: sykopomp: I isolate their concurrency model, because it can be isolated and be used elsewhere
2014-07-26T20:21:36Z AeroNotix: sykopomp: Go, until recently, was cooperatively scheduled
2014-07-26T20:21:47Z sykopomp: Erlang is cooperatively scheduled too
2014-07-26T20:21:48Z AeroNotix: AFAIK Haskell is too
2014-07-26T20:21:55Z sykopomp: all three are
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2014-07-26T20:21:59Z sykopomp: or were
2014-07-26T20:22:02Z sykopomp: Erlang is
2014-07-26T20:22:08Z AeroNotix: sykopomp: what's your definition of coop scheduling then? :)
2014-07-26T20:22:20Z sykopomp: processes voluntarily surrendering control
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2014-07-26T20:22:23Z AeroNotix: Yes
2014-07-26T20:22:32Z AeroNotix: And do processes in erlang surrender control?
2014-07-26T20:22:34Z AeroNotix: Nope
2014-07-26T20:22:38Z sykopomp: yes they do
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2014-07-26T20:22:43Z AeroNotix: Nope
2014-07-26T20:22:46Z sykopomp: you don't notice it most of the time, but they do.
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2014-07-26T20:23:07Z AeroNotix: They run on scheduler reductions, the scheduler refuses to run any processes which has no reductions left
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2014-07-26T20:23:15Z sykopomp: they're not interrupted from the outside. They voluntarily yield control. Most of the time, the standard library takes care of that yielding under the hood.
2014-07-26T20:23:20Z AeroNotix: it is the scheduler which makes this choice -- not the processes
2014-07-26T20:23:40Z AeroNotix: They are most definitely interrupted from the outside
2014-07-26T20:23:45Z sykopomp: the processes voluntarily yield on scheduler reductions, and on blocking i/o operations.
2014-07-26T20:23:54Z sykopomp: no, it's the processes.
2014-07-26T20:23:57Z AeroNotix: Prove it
2014-07-26T20:24:15Z sykopomp: that's why you can lock an entire OS thread if you give a very long list to the list functions.
2014-07-26T20:24:27Z AeroNotix: sykopomp: prove it
2014-07-26T20:24:32Z sykopomp: what
2014-07-26T20:24:48Z AeroNotix: Because pretty much all common knowledge goes against what you're saying
2014-07-26T20:25:07Z AeroNotix: for pure Erlang code -- you cannot block a scheduler
2014-07-26T20:25:18Z AeroNotix: if it's C, meh, you'll easily block it
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2014-07-26T20:26:05Z AeroNotix: sykopomp: if you have some code which'll block a scheduler, I'm all ears
2014-07-26T20:26:10Z sykopomp: what Erlang does is it cooks the reduction counter stuff into the compiled Erlang code. That's what does the yield checks.
2014-07-26T20:26:24Z sykopomp: just give a ton of arguments to any list function
2014-07-26T20:26:36Z sykopomp: I don't have code right now to prove it. :)
2014-07-26T20:26:56Z AeroNotix: sykopomp: what is "compiled Erlang code"
2014-07-26T20:27:00Z AeroNotix: the beam files?
2014-07-26T20:27:43Z AeroNotix: this is #lisp any way.
2014-07-26T20:27:45Z sykopomp: yeah
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2014-07-26T20:28:46Z sykopomp: Erlang is preemptively scheduled on the surface. It just practically uses cooperative scheduling on the hood. Like I said, you won't notice it except for some pathological cases.
2014-07-26T20:29:09Z sykopomp: I just think that's an interesting little thing about Erlang, because I think it made the implementors' lives easier
2014-07-26T20:29:16Z sykopomp: and in practice, doesn't matter
2014-07-26T20:29:57Z AeroNotix: provide references
2014-07-26T20:30:12Z AeroNotix: These are not trivial claims you are making
2014-07-26T20:31:17Z sykopomp: shrug. I worked at an Erlang company for a while  with someone who worked on the native compiler, and he'd throw things like this at me when we were talking about low-level stuff.
2014-07-26T20:31:58Z AeroNotix: All the study I've done personally and all the time I've personally spent with Ericsson people disagrees
2014-07-26T20:32:08Z AeroNotix: I hate to pull a dick-move like this, but I think you're mistaken
2014-07-26T20:32:26Z sykopomp: nah, you're wrong
2014-07-26T20:32:33Z AeroNotix: That's fine by me
2014-07-26T20:32:34Z sykopomp: it's the internet, so it's kind of expected
2014-07-26T20:32:36Z AeroNotix: :)
2014-07-26T20:32:38Z AeroNotix: Enjoy
2014-07-26T20:32:40Z AeroNotix: bye bye
2014-07-26T20:33:00Z sykopomp: http://grokbase.com/t/gg/golang-nuts/12axy58mgv/go-nuts-how-does-goroutine-scheduling-work
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2014-07-26T20:33:12Z sykopomp: I mean check the same comment. I'm trying to find list discussions about it.
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2014-07-26T20:33:14Z AeroNotix: This is go you i diot
2014-07-26T20:33:16Z AeroNotix: idiot
2014-07-26T20:33:40Z sykopomp: ok you've devolved into name-calling. I think you need to quit drinking and go rest. Goodbye.
2014-07-26T20:33:57Z AeroNotix: We're talking about Erlang and you link me to a Go discussion ....
2014-07-26T20:34:21Z sykopomp: a Go discussion about Erlang's scheduling?
2014-07-26T20:34:26Z Xach: Perhaps this fascinating and fruitful discussion could be continued via private messages.
2014-07-26T20:34:39Z AeroNotix: Xach: Good point
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2014-07-26T20:35:12Z AeroNotix: sykopomp: this is all opinion too
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2014-07-26T20:47:16Z rk[1]: heh, i saw ya'll were talking about Erlang...
2014-07-26T20:47:35Z rk[1]: i had an interesting thought in the past to use Erlang as the "OS" to run a lisp program
2014-07-26T20:47:42Z AeroNotix: rk[1]: there's LFE
2014-07-26T20:47:45Z AeroNotix: if you're interested
2014-07-26T20:47:50Z rk[1]: LFE?
2014-07-26T20:47:56Z AeroNotix: Lisp Flavoured Erlang
2014-07-26T20:48:00Z AeroNotix: compiles to beam
2014-07-26T20:48:03Z rk[1]: intersting.
2014-07-26T20:48:17Z AeroNotix: also, Joxa, but I didn't try that
2014-07-26T20:48:22Z rk[1]: however, i like Common Lisp as it is. I just think it could use some thread handler under its bones
2014-07-26T20:48:26Z AeroNotix: and Robert Virding wrote LFE so..... :D
2014-07-26T20:48:41Z AeroNotix: yeah definitely, if I had CL with some nice concurrency model under the hood -- I'd be very happy
2014-07-26T20:48:48Z rk[1]: i am not familiar with people, so Robert Virding is just a string of text to me
2014-07-26T20:49:06Z rk[1]: i think it could seem semi-trivial using Erlang as such handler
2014-07-26T20:49:12Z rk[1]: i really should poke further at the idea.
2014-07-26T20:49:24Z rk[1]: any thoughts from the seasoned Lispers?
2014-07-26T20:49:46Z AeroNotix: LFE? Well, it's a bit weird compared to "proper" lisps
2014-07-26T20:49:52Z AeroNotix: it's not CL and it's not scheme
2014-07-26T20:50:00Z AeroNotix: it's literally erlang with a lispy syntax
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2014-07-26T20:51:20Z rk[1]: heh. i was more thinking, you use Erlang's message system to handling the sending of messages between common lisp processes, and Erlang's process handler for handling the life of each of the common lisp processes
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2014-07-26T20:51:45Z H4ns: rk[1]: erlang processes are much smaller than a lisp image.
2014-07-26T20:52:11Z rk[1]: H4ns: which sums to which conclusion?
2014-07-26T20:52:22Z AeroNotix: you can't really have a lisp image per process
2014-07-26T20:52:23Z H4ns: rk[1]: the advantage of erlang is precisely that, small independent units, a clean communication model, error recovery mechanisms
2014-07-26T20:52:33Z rk[1]: hmm i see.
2014-07-26T20:52:43Z H4ns: rk[1]: whereas lisp is a bulky big language with no concurrency whatsoever.
2014-07-26T20:53:15Z orthecreedence: rk[1]: i  messed around with building some erlang-type stuff on top of CL, using threading + an event loop https://github.com/orthecreedence/fern/blob/master/test.lisp
2014-07-26T20:53:19Z H4ns: rk[1]: it is possible to write concurrent programs using common lisp, but the non-concurrent nature of its library sets certain limits as to how beautiful everything can ever become
2014-07-26T20:53:33Z rk[1]: i see.
2014-07-26T20:53:38Z rk[1]: i really need to dive deeper.
2014-07-26T20:53:58Z orthecreedence: but it was really just messing around, and is probably broken in many ways, although initial tests looked fine
2014-07-26T20:54:01Z rk[1]: i <3 CL!!!, but its lack of good concurrency (or rather my knowledge of it) is starting to become an issue :/
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2014-07-26T20:54:15Z AeroNotix: this^
2014-07-26T20:54:24Z H4ns: rk[1]: get a faster computer, write sequential programs.
2014-07-26T20:54:26Z pjb: rk[1]: then make it better! You've got the sources!
2014-07-26T20:54:38Z AeroNotix: except it's not that big of a deal for 99% of programs
2014-07-26T20:54:40Z rk[1]: pjb: i hope i can....
2014-07-26T20:54:43Z AeroNotix: they don't need to be concurrent
2014-07-26T20:54:44Z orthecreedence: only think i'm missing in CL is coroutines
2014-07-26T20:54:55Z orthecreedence: thing*
2014-07-26T20:54:59Z H4ns: orthecreedence: "the only thing" haha
2014-07-26T20:55:04Z orthecreedence: =]
2014-07-26T20:55:14Z rk[1]: H4ns: faster computer won't work. because i like writing CL programs that handle requests. and you just can do sequential programming when you are getting requests concurrently
2014-07-26T20:55:16Z H4ns: pjb: no amount of source hacking will make the cl spec any better.
2014-07-26T20:55:26Z rk[1]: s/can/can't
2014-07-26T20:55:27Z H4ns: rk[1]: process them sequentially.  done.
2014-07-26T20:55:45Z rk[1]: H4ns: but, but, but...
2014-07-26T20:56:10Z orthecreedence: rk[1]: you can use futures. they aren't perfect (hence my lust for coroutines) but can make your code look sequential
2014-07-26T20:56:31Z orthecreedence: i use them all the time to make my async code look somewhat synchronous
2014-07-26T20:56:32Z rk[1]: hmm.
2014-07-26T20:56:33Z H4ns: rk[1]: or chose a language that has better facilities for concurrent programming, if that is what is really blocking you
2014-07-26T20:56:38Z rk[1]: also can you define "coroutine"
2014-07-26T20:56:40Z orthecreedence: yeah or that
2014-07-26T20:56:40Z H4ns: you could shave a few yaks as well.
2014-07-26T20:56:58Z pjb: H4ns: sure: you can define your own superset of CL and sell it as a "superset of CL", this is explicitely allowed by the ANSI CL standard.
2014-07-26T20:57:00Z rk[1]: H4ns: i am looking at Rust right now for this, but but but, i like my CL
2014-07-26T20:57:11Z H4ns: rk[1]: coroutines are a well-defined concept that is unfortunately impossible to implement in a general fashion.
2014-07-26T20:57:16Z orthecreedence: coroutine is a concurency mechanism that lets you switch the exact point at which you want to change threads
2014-07-26T20:57:18Z pjb: As long as any old CL program still run conformingly onto your superset, it's ok.
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2014-07-26T20:57:42Z orthecreedence: and coroutines are generally "light weight"
2014-07-26T20:58:03Z orthecreedence: so you could have 50000 coroutines running in one OS thread
2014-07-26T20:58:06Z rk[1]: hmm. yes i think a superset of CL of which has concurrency at its core is quite possbile. however which concurrency model to choose:/?
2014-07-26T20:58:09Z H4ns: orthecreedence: there is a reason why goroutines are called goroutines and not coroutines.
2014-07-26T20:58:27Z orthecreedence: H4ns: what is the difference exactly? haven't done much reading on it
2014-07-26T20:58:41Z H4ns: orthecreedence: the reason is that they're not true coroutines, because true coroutines cannot be implemented efficiently :)
2014-07-26T20:58:55Z orthecreedence: oh, didn't know that
2014-07-26T20:59:03Z pjb: rk[1]: don't choose, write ten different supersets implementing ten different models, and see what works better! ;-)
2014-07-26T20:59:08Z H4ns: orthecreedence: the problem is the possibility of an unbounded amount of state that could constitute a yield point.
2014-07-26T20:59:22Z rk[1]: pjb: the true scientific way...
2014-07-26T20:59:22Z orthecreedence: can't you have the same problem in a closure though?
2014-07-26T20:59:53Z H4ns: orthecreedence: right.  and with continuations.  only that with true coroutines, an efficient implementation is really hard.
2014-07-26T21:00:04Z rk[1]: aye, i really need to get to it...
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2014-07-26T21:00:37Z orthecreedence: hmm, need to read more on goroutines then
2014-07-26T21:00:51Z H4ns: it is all more or less "i cannot get this nail into the wall because the hammer is not comfortable enough" vs "i need to get this nail in, get me any hammer that is large enough"
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2014-07-26T21:01:57Z H4ns: orthecreedence: there are a few classic papers about coroutines that define the term and also illustrate what makes them hard to implement.
2014-07-26T21:03:16Z orthecreedence: thanks, i'll do some digging
2014-07-26T21:03:41Z H4ns: the wikipedia page is actually pretty exhaustive
2014-07-26T21:05:32Z rk[1]: how does hunchentoot handle a multitude of requests (i unfortunately haven't allocated the time to learn it yet:/)
2014-07-26T21:06:04Z orthecreedence: it handles as many requests as your server can spawn threads for
2014-07-26T21:06:24Z H4ns: it can also run single threaded.
2014-07-26T21:06:36Z orthecreedence: oh, didn't know that
2014-07-26T21:06:48Z orthecreedence: does it just process requests one-by-one?
2014-07-26T21:07:05Z AeroNotix: Of course not
2014-07-26T21:07:18Z H4ns: orthecreedence: yes, it has no other scheduling mechanism beyond that and it does not allow you to defer returning from a handler.
2014-07-26T21:07:24Z H4ns: AeroNotix: what?
2014-07-26T21:07:46Z AeroNotix: H4ns: hunchentoot one-by-one dispatching requests
2014-07-26T21:07:58Z H4ns: AeroNotix: that is what it does in single threaded mode.
2014-07-26T21:08:04Z AeroNotix: Who uses that :)
2014-07-26T21:08:13Z orthecreedence: people on clisp
2014-07-26T21:08:25Z H4ns: AeroNotix: i do.
2014-07-26T21:08:31Z AeroNotix: H4ns: you use clisp ?
2014-07-26T21:08:38Z rk[1] uses clisp
2014-07-26T21:08:48Z AeroNotix: in a prod setting?
2014-07-26T21:08:49Z H4ns: AeroNotix: sbcl
2014-07-26T21:09:05Z H4ns: AeroNotix: in a prod setting.  i do that because my handlers never block
2014-07-26T21:09:14Z AeroNotix: very interesting
2014-07-26T21:09:19Z AeroNotix: I just couldn't see a use-case for that
2014-07-26T21:09:39Z rk[1] wishes he did lisp in a "prod" setting :P
2014-07-26T21:10:17Z AeroNotix: I've not done CL (yet), but I've got loads of Clojure in prod
2014-07-26T21:10:45Z AeroNotix: I'm sure H4ns has some prod CL stories to tell :)
2014-07-26T21:12:40Z AeroNotix: I'm really interested in "large scale" lisp actually
2014-07-26T21:12:40Z K1rk_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2014-07-26T21:12:45Z AeroNotix: famously Reddit stopped using Lisp
2014-07-26T21:13:02Z AeroNotix: any one have any stories?
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2014-07-26T21:13:15Z orthecreedence: i think reddit stopped right before CL got a lot better
2014-07-26T21:13:16Z H4ns is not doing anything "large scale"
2014-07-26T21:13:31Z H4ns: reddit.  when was that?  10 years ago?
2014-07-26T21:13:33Z orthecreedence: i've used CL a bit in production, but nothing huge
2014-07-26T21:13:43Z AeroNotix: H4ns: don't make me feel old :)
2014-07-26T21:13:49Z Shinmera: I'm running my public pasting service on lisp.
2014-07-26T21:14:03Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: req/s? w/s? STATS !:)
2014-07-26T21:14:04Z orthecreedence: i've got a few prod sites using Wookie
2014-07-26T21:14:15Z orthecreedence: it's held up surprisingly well
2014-07-26T21:14:21Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: No idea, never benchmarked
2014-07-26T21:14:28Z Xach sold his CL-powered web toy website last month
2014-07-26T21:14:39Z Xach sheds a single, perfect tear
2014-07-26T21:14:43Z orthecreedence: nice!
2014-07-26T21:14:57Z Shinmera: tear of liquid black sorrow
2014-07-26T21:15:13Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: but what do you do in prod?
2014-07-26T21:15:33Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: I'm not sure I understand your question?
2014-07-26T21:15:42Z AeroNotix: what scale are you running at?
2014-07-26T21:15:52Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-07-26T21:16:10Z Shinmera: scale of a small home made thing that probably nobody except me uses
2014-07-26T21:16:14Z AeroNotix: gotcha
2014-07-26T21:16:17Z AeroNotix: ok
2014-07-26T21:16:21Z AeroNotix: I
2014-07-26T21:16:36Z AeroNotix: I've managed to get Clojure accepted -- so the whole syntax phase is gone
2014-07-26T21:16:43Z AeroNotix: (in my company)
2014-07-26T21:16:54Z AeroNotix: so I would love it if I could get common lisp an accepted thing
2014-07-26T21:17:26Z orthecreedence: me too, might be joining a new company soon, going to push for it
2014-07-26T21:17:34Z AeroNotix: I find it's best not to push
2014-07-26T21:17:43Z AeroNotix: Just say "hey this is pretty cool in lisp"
2014-07-26T21:17:46Z AeroNotix: write some tools in it
2014-07-26T21:17:49Z AeroNotix: show them
2014-07-26T21:17:52Z orthecreedence: i've used it in every company i've started since i began learning
2014-07-26T21:17:58Z AeroNotix: Zealots never convinced any one
2014-07-26T21:18:28Z orthecreedence: well the truth is i know lisp way better than python, so if they want fast results, that's the best way for me to do it
2014-07-26T21:18:36Z rk[1]: much of my jobs is just writing scripts to "get shit down", of which i would have the option to use CL, but then no one on my team could read it
2014-07-26T21:18:57Z rk[1]: s/down/done
2014-07-26T21:20:03Z rk[1]: however, it would be pretty neat to push some CL because the company i work for is ~about as large scale as it gets
2014-07-26T21:20:10Z AeroNotix: could anyone estimate the number of consistent CL jobs there are
2014-07-26T21:20:31Z AeroNotix: rk[1]: what are you doing?
2014-07-26T21:20:40Z rk[1]: sysadmin for eBay's search engine.
2014-07-26T21:21:03Z AeroNotix: surely you're not the only one
2014-07-26T21:21:06Z prxq: most companies that use lisp don't make much of a fuzz about it
2014-07-26T21:21:22Z AeroNotix: prxq: rightly so! (channeling "on lisp"...(
2014-07-26T21:21:23Z AeroNotix: )
2014-07-26T21:21:24Z rk[1]: AeroNotix: surely not, there is about 10 of us.
2014-07-26T21:21:35Z AeroNotix: rk[1]: phew!
2014-07-26T21:21:39Z rk[1]: ={
2014-07-26T21:21:42Z rk[1]: i mean =P
2014-07-26T21:22:49Z rk[1]: Xach: there is something i have been meaning to query you about for some time...
2014-07-26T21:23:02Z rk[1]: let me see if i can pull up the comment.
2014-07-26T21:23:09Z Xach: Wa
2014-07-26T21:23:53Z rk[1]: it is very minor, but anyway
2014-07-26T21:24:15Z rk[1]: when using standard (load) there is a :flag to turn off output
2014-07-26T21:24:27Z rk[1]: this flag doesn't exist with (quickload)
2014-07-26T21:24:40Z rk[1]: i saw in a comment once, you mentioned you would "work on it at some point"
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2014-07-26T21:25:34Z rk[1]: the work around is ugly, of capturing output and throwing it at /dev/null or the what not
2014-07-26T21:25:47Z rk[1]: just curious if you had thought about this since you had commented
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2014-07-26T21:26:32Z Xach: I think about it all the time, but there is no solution yet.
2014-07-26T21:26:48Z AeroNotix: Xach: is it complicated?
2014-07-26T21:27:02Z ehu: this guy runs his web products on CL: https://www.whiteboxlearning.com/
2014-07-26T21:28:29Z prxq: http://www.shuffleworks.com/ ;; this thing runs on lisp
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2014-07-26T21:28:47Z Shinmera: (the paste service is http://plaster.tymoon.eu/new )
2014-07-26T21:29:59Z rk[1]: AeroNotix: i'd assume the difficulty comes in cross-platformness
2014-07-26T21:30:26Z AeroNotix: rk[1]: is anyone who is running at scale really giving a shit about cross platform code?
2014-07-26T21:31:47Z Xach: AeroNotix: I think it is more tedious than complicated.
2014-07-26T21:31:55Z rk[1]: AeroNotix: i was refering to the silencing of quickload ouput
2014-07-26T21:32:07Z rk[1]: but yes, large scale does care about cross-platformness
2014-07-26T21:32:20Z rk[1]: think, most large scale systems grow incrementally overtime
2014-07-26T21:32:42Z rk[1]: and from time to time, architectures change and you have a hodgepodge of boxes running in a cluster
2014-07-26T21:33:20Z Shinmera: Why is it important to you to suppress it?
2014-07-26T21:33:41Z rk[1]: Shinmera: it is a minor thing for cleanliness
2014-07-26T21:33:42Z Xach: It can be nice to see nothing while loading sometimes.
2014-07-26T21:33:43Z ehu: some systems meant to be used large scale are sold by vendors to customers actually running them. depending on the customer, the platform may differ, so, yes, they care.
2014-07-26T21:34:08Z Shinmera: personally I'd love more output, but then I'm a sucker for loggings
2014-07-26T21:34:22Z rk[1]: Xach: right, that is the way i feel. i like my programs to load without anyone knowing that it is even running in the lisp interpreter
2014-07-26T21:34:41Z Xach: rk[1]: When I have that desire I usually use buildapp to make a binary
2014-07-26T21:34:59Z Xach: Shinmera: you can use :verbose in quickload
2014-07-26T21:35:18Z rk[1]: i see. well i am usually always in "testing mode" , but i would look in to buildapp
2014-07-26T21:35:22Z Shinmera: Xach: I know and it's very useful for testing against warnings
2014-07-26T21:35:41Z Shinmera: Xach: But something like a middle ground that just shows currently compiling files/components would be nice.
2014-07-26T21:35:58Z Shinmera: But nowhere near important enough to spend time on
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2014-07-26T21:43:53Z AeroNotix: rk[1]: absolutely not -- if you want to scale you need a reproducable system which is the same across all systems. You cannot care about a single box
2014-07-26T21:45:08Z AeroNotix: e.g. running "in the cloud" you cannot trust a box to be live month-to-month so you just ensure that whatever that box was running is reproducable, thus meaning that the underlying architecture should stay the same
2014-07-26T21:45:22Z AeroNotix: (not to mention that ec2 doesn't give you much choice anyway)
2014-07-26T21:45:42Z AeroNotix: outside of the cloud, I assure you that "scaled" systems quickly coalesce on a "known good" configuration
2014-07-26T21:45:58Z rk[1]: AeroNotix: that would seem optimal, but i have seen otherwise.
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2014-07-26T21:46:20Z AeroNotix: Then those are suboptimal (read: not actually "at scale") systems
2014-07-26T21:46:51Z rk[1]: aye
2014-07-26T21:47:04Z JuniorRoy1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2014-07-26T21:47:17Z AeroNotix: I'd really love to see the workflow of a CL-based company running in the cloud at scale
2014-07-26T21:47:33Z pjb: AeroNotix: look at ITA software (now google).
2014-07-26T21:47:33Z rk[1]: i'd agree.
2014-07-26T21:47:42Z AeroNotix: pjb: will do :)
2014-07-26T21:48:27Z rk[1] googled it. figures it came from Massachusetts
2014-07-26T21:50:49Z Xach: Shinmera: quicklisp's levels actually correspond to "suppress implementation output" and "show implementation output". There's not much in between without extra work.
2014-07-26T21:50:56Z Xach: Shinmera: ccl doesn't show much, sbcl shows a lot
2014-07-26T21:51:58Z Shinmera: yeah I thought as much
2014-07-26T21:53:31Z Shinmera: man did they ever play skryim or what
2014-07-26T21:53:44Z Shinmera: there's always a way around :Y
2014-07-26T21:54:16Z Shinmera: this can't have been the climax
2014-07-26T21:54:24Z Shinmera: who whoops wrong channel
2014-07-26T21:54:28Z Shinmera: sorry about that
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2014-07-26T22:05:21Z Hydan: What's the most popular testing library for cl?
2014-07-26T22:05:48Z Shinmera: I use 4am and that works nicely. Don't know about 'most popular' though.
2014-07-26T22:06:13Z Shinmera: Usually there aren't really popularity contests for the libraries since the community is small and diverse
2014-07-26T22:06:37Z Hydan: Shinmera: you mean 5am?
2014-07-26T22:06:45Z Shinmera: that, yes
2014-07-26T22:06:53Z Shinmera: it's late and I'm distracted by nicolas cage, my apologies.
2014-07-26T22:07:20Z Hydan: ty
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2014-07-26T22:15:34Z rk[1]: OH MY
2014-07-26T22:15:59Z rk[1]: i think i just heard a cannon
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2014-07-26T23:08:44Z dlowe: AeroNotix: at Google lisp images are treated just like any other binary.
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2014-07-27T04:24:53Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-07-27T04:36:40Z theos: good morning beach :)
2014-07-27T04:38:05Z ThePhoeron: hey beach
2014-07-27T04:42:54Z beach: Yesterday when GUIs were again discussed, I was thinking that it can't be that hard to create a set of gadgets that people need in order to write simple GUI programs.  I mean, in CLIMatis, I already have the low-level infrastructure with event handling etc.
2014-07-27T04:43:22Z beach: My only problem is that I don't know what people expect from a "normal" GUI library.  I only know about CLIM. :)
2014-07-27T04:43:34Z |3b|: harder to make 'good' ones
2014-07-27T04:43:57Z |3b|: particularly if you want to use them on platforms with established conventions and behaviors
2014-07-27T04:43:59Z beach: |3b|: I could use some help to figure out what "good" means here.
2014-07-27T04:44:15Z |3b|: that's one of the hard parts
2014-07-27T04:44:35Z beach: I don't think that's a big problem.
2014-07-27T04:45:04Z beach: I mean, people come here and waffle between LTk and CL-whatever.
2014-07-27T04:45:12Z |3b|: one thing is that if it looks like a 'native' widget, it should act like it, even in all the tiny details you would have never thought to try
2014-07-27T04:45:41Z |3b|: because someone somewhere figured out that behavior by accident and now relies on it completely :p
2014-07-27T04:46:22Z beach: Somehow I think the people who come here and ask for a GUI library in Lisp are not in that category.
2014-07-27T04:46:43Z |3b|: are you sure their users aren't?
2014-07-27T04:46:59Z |3b|: and i am in that category
2014-07-27T04:47:20Z beach: I see what you mean.
2014-07-27T04:47:32Z |3b|: i've run into that with java dialogs that tried to look like native ones, but got the behavior wrong, or didn't support some random feature of the native ones
2014-07-27T04:48:44Z |3b|: not to say there isn't a lot of room for the easier to create level as well, even if it isn't 'good' it could still be quite a bit 'better' than what we have now :)
2014-07-27T04:49:03Z beach: Yeah, I think I get the picture.
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2014-07-27T04:50:04Z |3b|: and to some extent, if you can gain some popularity it can just add another category of 'expected behavior'
2014-07-27T04:50:42Z beach: Yes, I understand what you are saying.  Very valuable feedback for me.
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2014-07-27T04:53:01Z beach: One thing I am having a hard time with is coming up with a bunch of small examples of GUI programs, each with some set of gadgets that would be considered essential.  With such a bunch, one could start implementing each gadget in an XP-style project.
2014-07-27T04:53:01Z beach:  
2014-07-27T04:53:55Z Guthur: XP-style? with window style or programming?
2014-07-27T04:54:01Z Guthur: with/the
2014-07-27T04:54:15Z beach: eXtreme Programming.
2014-07-27T04:54:29Z Guthur: yeah, figured that, just making sure
2014-07-27T04:55:34Z beach: I suppose I could have a look at the small GUI dialogues of this computer (Ubuntu GNU/Linux) such as the alarm, the printer interface, etc.
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2014-07-27T04:55:55Z theos: beach try cffi-gtk
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2014-07-27T04:56:15Z beach: theos: "try" in what sense?
2014-07-27T04:56:40Z theos: beach try to use it and see if it makes good dialog boxes
2014-07-27T04:57:20Z Guthur: beach: I feel that people approach to learning CL of developing a GUI program is not beneficial
2014-07-27T04:57:30Z beach: theos: Oh, maybe I didn't express myself very well.  I don't like traditional GUI programs myself, and I don't know what to expect from them.  I need to know what other people expect.
2014-07-27T04:57:44Z Guthur: I would hazard a guess that they are producing things like a temperature converter
2014-07-27T04:58:15Z |3b|: probably the biggest (both in terms of effort and number of ways to confuse users) in a "simple" gui app would be a file picker
2014-07-27T04:58:31Z beach: Guthur: Whether one should learn a language by writing GUI applications is a different discussion, I think.
2014-07-27T04:59:08Z beach: |3b|: Yes, that would be an essential one.
2014-07-27T04:59:37Z beach: |3b|: Like the ones that are imposed on you by the web browser to pick a file to send to a web site, right?
2014-07-27T04:59:44Z |3b|: to some extent the other big one (text window) seems to be more likely to be a html thing these days, which could push the difficulty way up
2014-07-27T05:00:08Z |3b|: right, or loading a file into anything
2014-07-27T05:01:46Z |3b|: scroll bars are another place to get thins not-quite-right
2014-07-27T05:01:47Z beach: Guthur: My opinion is that it is easier to say "sure, it exists" to someone who asks, than to try some pedagogical dialogue type "you see, maybe you should not want to ask such a question...".
2014-07-27T05:01:49Z |3b|: *things
2014-07-27T05:02:23Z |3b| thinks learning by working on gui applications is a reasonable idea if you have a good GUI base to start from
2014-07-27T05:02:42Z |3b|: for example learning JS in browser is effectively learning a GUI
2014-07-27T05:02:59Z |3b|: in particular quick visual feedback is good for learning
2014-07-27T05:03:52Z beach: I personally don't have an opinion about that.  I just want to avoid the discussion about commonQT vs ltk vs whatever.
2014-07-27T05:04:53Z |3b|: yeah, doesn't really help us since we don't have that good base yet for guis  :/
2014-07-27T05:06:31Z Quadrescence: vive mcclim
2014-07-27T05:08:06Z beach: Quadrescence: I personally think McCLIM is very good.  Not great perhaps, but good.  But I think at this point, it has so much negative fu associated with it, that it is best to start over.
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2014-07-27T05:08:37Z Quadrescence: beach, i dont disagree
2014-07-27T05:08:53Z beach: Quadrescence: Furthermore, it is different from what people expect, so a simpler library of gadgets would be useful as well.
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2014-07-27T05:15:31Z Guthur: |3b|: I think JS and HTML are kind of a special case
2014-07-27T05:16:31Z beach: theos: Looking at the Gtk manual, I think I can use it as a complete list of gadgets that people expect, including the interface that programmers expect.
2014-07-27T05:16:50Z theos: beach yup :)
2014-07-27T05:16:57Z Guthur: HTML is reasonably simple declarative interface markup
2014-07-27T05:17:48Z Guthur: if the GUI library was geared  more for learning then if might actually be beneficial
2014-07-27T05:18:02Z Guthur: Dr Racket seems to have that sort of focus
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2014-07-27T05:19:00Z Guthur: where visual feedback is quickly obtained without having to deal with alot of naunces that often for with GUI libraries
2014-07-27T05:19:08Z Guthur: for/go
2014-07-27T05:19:36Z beach: Guthur: Like what?
2014-07-27T05:20:01Z Guthur: beach: an example of ones that have complexity?
2014-07-27T05:20:01Z beach apologizes for his ignorance.
2014-07-27T05:20:23Z beach: What kind of "nuances"?
2014-07-27T05:21:45Z Guthur: oh, I'm only considering what limit experience i've had with microsoft winforms or MFC, without MS's visual editors those would require quite a lot of configuration
2014-07-27T05:22:02Z Guthur: MS ended up inventing a whole XML for it XAML
2014-07-27T05:23:22Z Guthur: GUI's just imo seem to be quite complex with lots of configuration
2014-07-27T05:24:06Z Guthur: but if the focus is on pedagogical activities then a lot of that configurability could likely be removed
2014-07-27T05:24:08Z beach: Maybe so, but I think we have an advantage with CL.  We can use the same language for configuration as for the implementation.
2014-07-27T05:25:12Z Guthur: sure, a good open GUI solution would indeed be excellent, I think it's one that would require a monumental effort though
2014-07-27T05:26:00Z |3b|: beach seems to have been doing a good job at 'monumental effort' lately, judging by other projects :)
2014-07-27T05:26:01Z beach: Guthur: as moore33 points out, I have virtually infinite patience.
2014-07-27T05:26:03Z Guthur: to provide simplicity and power, and native look and feel; it's a tall order
2014-07-27T05:26:37Z beach: |3b|: Wow, thanks!
2014-07-27T05:27:13Z |3b| wishes i had more time to play with sicl
2014-07-27T05:28:48Z |3b| is trying to focus on 3d stuff for now though, so trying to avoid writing a dalvik compiler
2014-07-27T05:29:13Z |3b|: or art or whatever they are using now
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2014-07-27T05:35:43Z beach: |3b|: You are talking to moore33 about this, right?
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2014-07-27T05:36:33Z |3b|: 3d stuff? talked about it in general, yeah
2014-07-27T05:36:42Z beach: Right.
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2014-07-27T05:38:10Z kristof: When we finally get nonblocking asynchronous channel-communicating sequential processes in Lisp, I'd like to apply some of the research done by Rob Pike and company on CSP-based user interfaces
2014-07-27T05:39:40Z kristof: Instead of having an event loop poll sources, you let events flow to consumers of those events asynchronously. Independent components in a UI really do appear independently from one another in the code, and it's conceptually cleaner
2014-07-27T05:39:57Z kristof: There are some good papers that use the Go language, I think
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2014-07-27T06:14:50Z kristof: Why doesn't SBCL implement the most/least-positive/negative-short/long-float functions?
2014-07-27T06:15:03Z |3b|: aren't they constants?
2014-07-27T06:15:12Z kristof: ...
2014-07-27T06:15:29Z kristof: Yes, that seemed tow ork.
2014-07-27T06:15:45Z kristof: |3b|: We all have those days.
2014-07-27T06:15:47Z |3b|: :)
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2014-07-27T06:46:58Z Fare: kristof, with a few hacks, you have channels like that on top of lparallel, and it seems to work well on at least sbcl
2014-07-27T06:47:26Z Fare: now for generalized I/O polling, you'd need to combine that with iolib.
2014-07-27T06:48:11Z H4ns: Fare: like this?  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BhBjB37CAAADf44.jpg:large
2014-07-27T06:48:12Z H4ns: :D
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2014-07-27T11:06:35Z Guthur: any Cells users?
2014-07-27T11:07:25Z Guthur: actually nvm, just realised the question isn't relevant
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2014-07-27T11:40:58Z Shinmera: Xach: Question for the future: Is QL at all able to handle git submodules?
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2014-07-27T11:45:05Z Xach: It doesn't do anything with them now.
2014-07-27T11:45:22Z Xach: I can adapt the code to do something with them if needed.
2014-07-27T11:45:35Z Xach: it's a matter of updating the checkout and update commands (I think)
2014-07-27T11:47:12Z Shinmera: Alright. I'm just wondering because I've began using them in a project and if that ever gets put on QL the submodules should probably get ignored, since they're set up as separate systems that could be put into separate ql-able libs.
2014-07-27T11:47:37Z Shinmera: But I can see how that might not always be the right action
2014-07-27T11:49:38Z Guthur: Shinmera: are those submodules CL libraries?
2014-07-27T11:49:58Z Shinmera: Guthur: as I said, they are separate systems/libs, so yes
2014-07-27T11:50:06Z Guthur: that sounds like it would be conflict with QL's current model
2014-07-27T11:50:20Z Shinmera: well it's no issue if the submodules get ignored by ql
2014-07-27T11:50:24Z Guthur: Shinmera: yeah i was wondering if there were maybe foreign livs
2014-07-27T11:50:26Z Guthur: libs*
2014-07-27T11:50:51Z Shinmera: Yes that's the scenario I'm a bit worried about too
2014-07-27T11:51:01Z Shinmera: It doesn't apply in my case but it could be a problem at some point
2014-07-27T11:51:37Z Guthur: and know that with Mecurial such setups are discouraged
2014-07-27T11:52:26Z Shinmera: Putting them down as submodules makes sense in my case since they're all my own libs and are closely related to the main project, so
2014-07-27T11:52:29Z Guthur: I believe there recommendaton would be to have dependencies used as a libraries rather that baking them into your source tree
2014-07-27T11:52:58Z Guthur: QL makes that pretty easy as well
2014-07-27T11:53:21Z Shinmera: well if your projects are just dependant through asdf the relative location shouldn't have an impact
2014-07-27T11:53:35Z Guthur: if all you dependent modules are tracked by QL and loaded via asdf it should just do the right thing, from my understanding
2014-07-27T11:53:45Z Shinmera: yes
2014-07-27T11:54:32Z Guthur: what do you feel is gained by making them submodules?
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2014-07-27T11:55:46Z Shinmera: I like having a bit of structure in my folders, and if I need to deploy it on another machine it's convenient to just let it fetch all submodules.
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2014-07-27T11:56:46Z Guthur: but you are mixing two separate concerns there
2014-07-27T11:56:59Z Guthur: deployment and source control
2014-07-27T11:57:38Z Guthur: also as for the separate directory there shouldn't really be any more inconvenient if within there directory tree
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2014-07-27T11:57:56Z Guthur: M-. cares not for which tree it is in
2014-07-27T11:58:16Z Shinmera: I.. know all that, but I navigate by files too, not just M-.
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2014-07-27T12:12:18Z Shinmera: Just to clarify, the submodules are my own projects that are related to the bigger one
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2014-07-27T12:13:15Z Shinmera: And I was asking my question to see if this might cause problems in QL due to duplicates if the submodules were indeed fetched.
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2014-07-27T12:20:13Z Guthur: Shinmera: I understand, it's your call, I just don't think submodules are the solution to the problems you want to solve
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2014-07-27T13:21:55Z yuqian: is there someone who knows an available lisp-base web server backend?
2014-07-27T13:24:50Z Guthur: yuqian: hunchentoot
2014-07-27T13:25:35Z Guthur: (ql:quickload :hunchentoot)
2014-07-27T13:25:36Z Guthur: http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/
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2014-07-27T13:34:27Z yuqian: thanks
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2014-07-27T15:40:23Z lmj`: Looks like git service at common-lisp.net is down. Are the mailing lists down too? Anyone get a message from alexandria-devel today?
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2014-07-27T15:45:20Z joe-w-bimedina: Can some one tell me how I would convert the output of (code-char 77), #\M, into just the string "M"?
2014-07-27T15:45:39Z Bike: (string #\M)
2014-07-27T15:46:22Z joe-w-bimedina: cool, thanks Bike:
2014-07-27T15:46:36Z lmj`: clhs string designator
2014-07-27T15:46:50Z lmj`: hmm no glossary lookup I guess
2014-07-27T15:47:38Z H4ns: lmj`: mailing lists work
2014-07-27T15:47:43Z H4ns: lmj`: i got your message.
2014-07-27T15:48:24Z lmj`: H4ns: about the golfing delete-from-plist that somehow got into the repository?
2014-07-27T15:49:53Z lmj`: (there were two recent)
2014-07-27T15:50:38Z H4ns: lmj`: i've read one that explained that the remf based solution was no good
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2014-07-27T15:51:23Z lmj`: H4ns: ok thanks
2014-07-27T15:51:29Z Bike: clhs string designator/g
2014-07-27T15:51:35Z Bike: hm, i thought that worked.
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2014-07-27T15:58:46Z Guthur: Bike: i thought it require clhs bot, unless minion does it
2014-07-27T15:59:01Z Bike: clhs string/f
2014-07-27T15:59:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_string.htm
2014-07-27T15:59:07Z Bike: clhs string/g
2014-07-27T15:59:08Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for string/g.
2014-07-27T15:59:11Z Bike: oh well.
2014-07-27T15:59:12Z Guthur: ah specbot
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2014-07-27T16:31:19Z kristof: Minion: memo for Fare: It's actually more than a few hacks, but it's entirely doable. You'd have to 1) implement a yielding construct and 2) allow for a way to get "back" to where you were in the procedure. Go does this with stack pointers, but C# and Clojure actually just do state machine transformations, which are accomplishable in Lisp. II imagine that running a task would establish a BLOCK, and if your
2014-07-27T16:31:20Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-07-27T16:31:21Z kristof: thread parked you would have to RETURN-FROM BLOCK with PARKING-REASON. along with a function pointer to call when UNPARKING-CONDITION is satisfied.
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2014-07-27T16:35:52Z kristof: minion: memo for Fare: thread parked you would have to RETURN-FROM BLOCK with PARKING-REASON. along with a function pointer to call when UNPARKING-CONDITION is satisfied. Then, you'd have to rewrite a lot of the channel functions to do that kind of yield/set-proc-state, but it's all very realistic. Oh, and async stuff would probably be emulated like Go's netpoller or Erlang's I/O port, which multiplexes I/O
2014-07-27T16:35:52Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-07-27T16:35:53Z kristof: requests without spawning a ginormous pile of threads
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2014-07-27T18:07:35Z nicdev: anyone familiar with commonqt? I have a question on the lisp equivalent call to a qt function call
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2014-07-27T18:08:58Z nicdev: the qt call takes a pointer to an array, and i have tried to pass the output of make-array but that's not cutting it
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2014-07-27T18:48:55Z Quadrescence: If functions F and G take (the same) lambda list L, and F is called with arguments X satisfying the shape of L, can anyone think of a probably non-portable way of calling G with precisely those arguments without complicated L-specific destructuring and unpacking?
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2014-07-27T18:53:59Z Quadrescence: One example application would be being able to define synonymous functions without using nonsense like symbol macros, and allowing the synonym function G to have a proper lambda list that's not something awful like &REST
2014-07-27T18:54:24Z JuanDaugherty: is this an academic exercise?
2014-07-27T18:55:03Z JuanDaugherty: or a practical problem?
2014-07-27T18:55:28Z Shinmera: Quadrescence: Macros have access to the &whole arg, but otherwise I don't see a way aside from funcalling the second function with the lambda-list rebuilt.
2014-07-27T18:55:32Z Quadrescence: JuanDaugherty, no it's not. It has come up twice so far. The first case was in defining LETREC which required stooping down to APPLY + &REST. The second time it has come up is in defining an efficient "interface" abstraction atop Lisp.
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2014-07-27T18:56:30Z Quadrescence: I am pretty certain that, except for global functions with FDEFINITIONs, it can't be done efficiently and portably. But it can almost certainly be done efficiently and non-portably.
2014-07-27T19:00:06Z JuanDaugherty: portably means across implementations?
2014-07-27T19:00:54Z JuanDaugherty: (since it could mean platforms)
2014-07-27T19:01:10Z Quadrescence: portably meaning written in ANSI Common Lisp, which means any compliant compiler could execute it.
2014-07-27T19:05:22Z Quadrescence: Just the simpleminded method of "unpacking" the arguments and sending them to a function again is difficult, especially in the presence of optional arguments, and their respective "optional-exists-p" flags.
2014-07-27T19:06:16Z kpreid: I seem to recall that there is a non-portable lambda-list keyword in some modern CL which lets you say "this function appears from the outside to have the lambda list of this other function"
2014-07-27T19:06:43Z kpreid: or maybe it was something that allowed forwarding
2014-07-27T19:08:18Z Shinmera: Quadrescence: (setf (symbol-function 'foo) (function bar))
2014-07-27T19:08:36Z Shinmera: obviously this won't work once you change bar, but
2014-07-27T19:08:48Z Shinmera: you could make a defun wrapper that includes an option to specify aliases
2014-07-27T19:09:26Z Shinmera: which calls the setf again every time to ensure it stays correct.
2014-07-27T19:09:53Z Shinmera: (and again this will break if anyone else redefines it in some other way, but hey, for all 'normal' circumstances it would work portably)
2014-07-27T19:10:16Z Quadrescence: Shinmera, I already mentioned (or hinted) this solution. This only works for global functions.
2014-07-27T19:11:00Z Shinmera: well, yes.
2014-07-27T19:11:20Z Shinmera: if it's not global functions I'd use macrolet and the &whole lambda-list arg
2014-07-27T19:11:44Z Shinmera: and otherwise... well I wouldn't know
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2014-07-27T19:18:45Z nicdev: Shinmera: in http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-4.8/widgets-analogclock.html, do you know how the call to drawConvexPolygon translates into commonqt? here is what i have and it's not working https://gist.github.com/nicmollel/44a24d03642f26804fb1
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2014-07-27T19:27:16Z Shinmera: What's "not working"?
2014-07-27T19:28:30Z nicdev: Shinmera: calling #_drawConvexPolygon with the results of make-array.
2014-07-27T19:29:45Z Shinmera: nicdev: try making a QPolygon instead, that doesn't rely on pointers.
2014-07-27T19:31:25Z Shinmera: nicdev: otherwise you'll most likely have to fiddle around with internals to grab the actual pointer of the array.
2014-07-27T19:32:24Z nicdev: Shinmera: grabbing the pointer of the array would be a good thing to know but let me go for QPolygon first. Thanks, did not occur to me to try that out!
2014-07-27T19:33:09Z Shinmera: nicdev: SBCL's alien documentation is quite good and I'm sure you could figure out how to do it with a bit of experimenting. Personally I'd go for the QPolygon route though.
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2014-07-27T19:37:23Z Bike: do the qt docs not say how to deal with arrays?
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2014-07-27T19:43:25Z nicdev: Bike: you mean commonqt docs? the ones I have seen do not say much about it. let me know if there is a different sources you might know
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2014-07-27T20:16:56Z Quadrescence: even the problem of "unpacking" a lambda list and manually placing args to call is much harder than I thought.
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2014-07-27T20:18:12Z kristof: Quadrescence: elaborate?
2014-07-27T20:19:35Z Quadrescence: Given a lambda list of a function F, write a function G that has the exact same lambda list as F, and calls F with the provided args
2014-07-27T20:20:15Z kristof: Quadrescence: so G takes an F and a lambda-list?
2014-07-27T20:20:54Z Quadrescence: A simple example: (defun F (x) ...). The definition of G would be (defun G (x) (F x))
2014-07-27T20:21:40Z Quadrescence: A more complex example: (defun F (&rest r) ...). The defintion of G would be (defun G (&rest r) (apply #'F r))
2014-07-27T20:22:03Z Quadrescence: I am using global function definitions here just for communication convenience.
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2014-07-27T20:24:22Z Bike: ugh, with keywords it would be a nightmare
2014-07-27T20:24:26Z Quadrescence: yeah
2014-07-27T20:24:36Z Quadrescence: Also with optional suppliedness checking
2014-07-27T20:24:55Z Shinmera: optional supplied is the real bummer, keywords themselves can be baked in easily enough
2014-07-27T20:25:12Z Bike: you have to worry about the keyword-supplied parameters, though
2014-07-27T20:25:34Z Shinmera: I did build some complicated machinery to make a macro that can produce such delegators at some point, but it was never completed and I don't have the source anymore
2014-07-27T20:26:14Z Shinmera: bummer.
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2014-07-27T20:26:42Z Bike: maybe it would be easier to lie to your ide about what the lambda list is
2014-07-27T20:26:46Z Bike: and just use &rest
2014-07-27T20:26:57Z Shinmera: In the end I managed to avoid the whole issue by choosing a different design for my needs.
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2014-07-27T20:27:49Z Quadrescence: Bike, I already know about that, but one reason I hate that is because I can't definitively make it dynamic-extent, and because SLIME will just show the extremely unhelpful &REST in the minibuffer
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2014-07-27T20:28:13Z Bike: i meant, get slime to display something else
2014-07-27T20:28:17Z Bike: dunno about dynamic extent though
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2014-07-27T20:39:09Z kristof: how do you get the lambda list of a function?
2014-07-27T20:39:19Z kristof: The only way I know of is through sb-introspect, which is obviously implementation specific
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2014-07-27T20:40:21Z Quadrescence: function-lambda-expression may give it to you
2014-07-27T20:40:29Z Quadrescence: but it's not guaranteed
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2014-07-27T20:47:54Z kristof: Quadrescence: Guarantees are silly :P function-lambda-expression is built on sb-introspection on sbcl, so I wonder what other implementations do
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2014-07-27T20:52:06Z Shinmera: kristof: aside from sb-introspect I know of swank-backend:arglist
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2014-07-27T20:52:30Z Shinmera: but you'll have to have swank, obviously, so
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2014-07-27T20:56:53Z lmj`: Quadrescence: You want the forwarding call that matches the arguments of a lambda list? I wrote this a while back: https://gist.github.com/lmj/908223dfbe4828725e44
2014-07-27T20:57:12Z kristof: lmj`: Can I ask you something?
2014-07-27T20:57:38Z lmj`: kristof: ok?
2014-07-27T20:57:59Z Quadrescence: lmj`, This looks deceptively simple
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2014-07-27T20:58:27Z kristof: lmj`: What do you think about separating kernel.lisp from the rest of Lparallel and having it available as a general scheduler library?
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2014-07-27T20:59:38Z lmj`: kristof: I've broken off a utility library lcon that contains queues, CAS, etc., I just need to commit everything.
2014-07-27T21:00:18Z lmj`: From there I guess more could be separated.
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2014-07-27T21:01:09Z lmj`: Quadrescence: try (wrapper-expansions 'foo '(a b &optional c &key d)) to see what it does
2014-07-27T21:01:17Z Quadrescence: lmj`, Hm, does (f (values)) really work by standard?
2014-07-27T21:01:27Z Quadrescence: Oh, you have M-V-C
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2014-07-27T21:03:26Z kristof: lmj`: My reasoning is that all schedulers make fundamental assumptions and trade-offs about the kind of tasks being run, but there's no universally correct or best-fit scheduler. Erlang is pre-emptive because it optimizes latency, and Go is throughput-oriented so its tasks are cooperative.
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2014-07-27T21:04:14Z Quadrescence: lmj`, This looks like it'd mostly work but it seems only incrementally better than using &REST, because of the pervasive use of values. Do you agree?
2014-07-27T21:05:19Z kristof: lmj`: So if the kernels were available as a standalone library, you could instantiate a specialized kernel for whatever it is you need. But there's a lot of code that could be shared between two or more kernels.
2014-07-27T21:05:32Z lmj`: Quadrescence: It was meant to handle every case, iirc. Do you have a fail case?
2014-07-27T21:07:48Z Quadrescence: lmj`, I gave it a few curveballs and it seems correct. But isn't this a bit inefficient to unpack using VALUES-LSIT and use M-V-C? I also wonder if compilers can specially deal with explicitly supplied kw arguments more efficiently than parsing them at runtime from a &REST.
2014-07-27T21:07:58Z Quadrescence: VALUES-LIST*, of course.
2014-07-27T21:08:51Z Quadrescence: Clever solution though. Wouldn't have thought to do that.
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2014-07-27T21:09:12Z lmj`: kristof: Well the special cilk-like algorithm depends upon kernel access being really fast. That's the only way to speed up fibonacci, for example.
2014-07-27T21:10:47Z kristof: lmj`: And that kind of optimization is possible because of the assumptions the kernel can make about the fine grained-parallel task it's running.
2014-07-27T21:11:18Z lmj`: Quadrescence: The parsing should be done at compile time. You give it the lambda list, and splice in the calling form.
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2014-07-27T21:12:13Z Quadrescence: lmj`, No, I mean parsing of an &REST argument. In order to put things in the right place, the runtime has to traverse the &REST list to find keyword arguments and so on.
2014-07-27T21:12:29Z JuanDaugherty: picky, picky
2014-07-27T21:13:17Z Quadrescence: I was just wondering if a compiler could see an explicitly supplied keyword argument and get it in the right place without having to worry about its existence in the &REST list.
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2014-07-27T21:17:42Z lmj`: kristof: In the long term, authors of CL implementations need to be convinced that lightweight threads on top of an OS thread pool is the needed solution. They went from lightweight threads to OS threads in order to utilize multiple cores, but what was needed all along were lightweight threads that are distributed across cores.
2014-07-27T21:18:21Z lmj`: In the meantime, one could write an async version of the CL package, complete with greenspunned stack frames via code walking, etc.
2014-07-27T21:20:04Z lmj`: Quadrescence: I don't use a &rest if it wasn't supplied. One way to write this is to always insert your own &rest, but as an optimization I avoid that.
2014-07-27T21:20:46Z Quadrescence: lmj`, If you have &rest r &key k, you kill off the keys and just use the &rest.
2014-07-27T21:21:01Z Quadrescence: That is the case I am talking about.
2014-07-27T21:21:08Z lmj`: Quadrescence: right, because it's already there
2014-07-27T21:21:21Z Quadrescence: Yes, but the compiler doesn't know that. What if it did?
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2014-07-27T21:22:48Z lmj`: Quadrescence: The compiler will give a warning if the &rest parameter is not used. Isn't that good enough?
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2014-07-27T21:23:44Z kristof: lmj`: I agree, but (besides dynamic binding semantics) one does not actually need implementation support for anything more than multithreading. The fact that you wrote a fast, functioning, M:N multi-tasking, work-stealing scheduler is testament to that.
2014-07-27T21:24:05Z Quadrescence: Sigh. Am I being so unclear? The Lisp runtime must traverse the rest argument. Do you agree? In that traversal, it must find the keys, at runtime. Do you agree? If a keyword argument was explicitly supplied at the call site at compile time, a compiler could conceivably do optimization by putting things in registers, or whatever, more eagerly. Do you agree?
2014-07-27T21:25:09Z Quadrescence: I was wondering if compilers do anything of that sort. That was my question, somewhat rhetorical unless someone actually knew the answer.
2014-07-27T21:25:19Z kristof: I've actually wondered that, too
2014-07-27T21:27:49Z Bike: i think sbcl does it for write
2014-07-27T21:27:53Z Bike: and i wanna say ccl has something
2014-07-27T21:29:39Z phadthai: it's possible that the few cases where it happens occur because of a compiler-macro
2014-07-27T21:30:04Z Quadrescence: Yes.
2014-07-27T21:32:51Z lmj`: Quadrescence: I was confused by your question because it's impossible from the standpoint of the defun. For the super-optimization you are looking for, one could write a compiler macro to that dispatches to generated functions.
2014-07-27T21:35:01Z pjb: Quadrescence: have a look at com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-sexp.source-form:make-argument-list
2014-07-27T21:36:36Z lmj`: kristof: the fine-grained parallelism doesn't come from the M:N scheduling of lightweight tasks; it's a unique algorithm found nowhere else afaik.
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2014-07-27T21:38:53Z lmj`: kristof: in any case, my point was that I consider an async CL package to be the only sensible long-term solution, whether written by the CL implementation or greenspunned on top.
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2014-07-27T21:39:12Z Quadrescence: pjb, Looks like something I was looking for. Though I haven't tried running it yet so I don't know what your output is like.
2014-07-27T21:39:16Z kristof: lmj`: I wasn't implying that, I was simply saying that M:N scheduling is possible and efficient even without implementation support. Even Rust's task-based parallelism is defined in a library
2014-07-27T21:39:26Z AeroNotix: Something something Erlang
2014-07-27T21:39:44Z kristof: lmj`: What do you mean greenspunned?
2014-07-27T21:40:30Z kristof: Oh, I understand
2014-07-27T21:41:11Z lmj`: kristof: Like writing one's own stack frames on top of CL, which already has stack frames.
2014-07-27T21:41:20Z pjb: (make-argument-list (parse-lambda-list '(a b &optional (o 1 op) &rest r &key (k 2 kp)) :ordinary))
2014-07-27T21:41:20Z pjb: --> (a b o :k k r)
2014-07-27T21:41:38Z lmj`: 7max did some of that in his cl-cilk project.
2014-07-27T21:41:49Z pjb: (make-argument-list-form (parse-lambda-list '(a b &optional (o 1 op) &rest r &key (k 2 kp)) :ordinary)) --> (append (list a b) (if r (list o) (when op (list o))) r)
2014-07-27T21:42:35Z Quadrescence: pjb, looks complicated
2014-07-27T21:42:56Z pjb: Whatever…
2014-07-27T21:43:06Z Quadrescence: pjb, :)
2014-07-27T21:43:31Z pjb: I mean, you started with "<Quadrescence> even the problem of "unpacking" a lambda list and manually placing args to call is much harder than I thought."
2014-07-27T21:43:38Z AeroNotix: SO THERE
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2014-07-27T21:43:57Z Bike: would probably be easy to modify to get an apply spread argument list too
2014-07-27T21:44:13Z Quadrescence: pjb, I've just about written what I think is an answer. It's simpler in the sense that it doesn't depend on a lot of PJB infrastructure. :)
2014-07-27T21:44:38Z Quadrescence: (not that there's anything wrong with dependencies!)
2014-07-27T21:44:58Z pjb: Yes, the classic NIH syndrome.  I don't consider it a bad thing in any case.
2014-07-27T21:48:24Z Quadrescence: This is what I got as output: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143245
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2014-07-27T21:52:25Z lmj`: Quadrescence: to me, that kind of nested dispatch only makes sense in a compiler macro. Otherwise, one m-v-c is better imo. Code size affects performance, too.
2014-07-27T21:53:29Z Quadrescence: lmj`, Can the M-V-C do anything in way of inlining?
2014-07-27T21:54:30Z Quadrescence: I guess I don't have any intuition on the speed of M-V-C versus this. This way is worse in the sense of code size and probably branch prediction, but I can't even pretend I can guess that. I'm guessing branch prediction isn't really a problem since more likely than not, the same codepath will be taken in, say, a loop.
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2014-07-27T22:03:13Z lmj`: kristof: is somebody writing an M:N scheduler in CL that uses cl-async or something?
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2014-07-27T22:06:19Z kristof: lmj`: I'm going back and forth between some other projects and that^
2014-07-27T22:06:44Z kristof: lmj`: Well, sort of. I'm not sure what you mean.
2014-07-27T22:06:53Z lmj`: kristof: since non-blocking tasks need to be code-walked, it seems that a special CL async replacement would be the first thing to write.
2014-07-27T22:07:07Z kristof: lmj`: Yes, I'm working on that. Are you familiar with clojure's go macro?
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2014-07-27T22:11:20Z kristof: lmj`: This was actually why I was talking about Lparallel's kernel. Adding nonblocking to a scheduler requires modifying the task-structure to include things like a BLOCKED-REASON field to the task, changing the way channels are accessed, etc. It'd be a hack, but not a totally unclean one.
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2014-07-27T22:12:37Z Quadrescence: pjb, Is it even possible to use APPLY with "unpacked" keyword arguments, even if they're duplicated in the &rest list?
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2014-07-27T22:12:53Z Quadrescence: I don't think it's possible to do (apply f '(:k 3 (:k 3)))
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2014-07-27T22:23:04Z lmj`: kristof: I was considering the harder problem of code-walking everything so that it is transparent, i.e. looking like regular CL code. But given a function with the hooks already in place, I suppose adding more logic to the scheduler wouldn't be that hard.
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2014-07-27T22:24:34Z lmj`: the go macro is like a halfway solution where the hooks are explicit
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2014-07-27T22:40:10Z kristof: lmj`: I'm not sure what you mean by explicit hooks, but yes, the point of the go macro is that you write some "sequential" looking code that puts and recvs from channels and the code-walker replaces those with... well, in my opinion, a variety of yielding calls, and setfs
2014-07-27T22:43:14Z kristof: lmj`: common lisp has tagbody and go, so I think the resulting transformed code would actually be sufficiently fast. You just jump to whatever code needs to be executed, where the tags separate the code between channel operations
2014-07-27T22:43:23Z lmj`: kristof: by code with hooks I just mean wait/resume spots are tagged inside the code, with functionality to jump in / jump out of those places.
2014-07-27T22:43:33Z kristof: Ah! So we're on the same page :)
2014-07-27T22:44:27Z kristof: I'm still working out the channel semantics but the go runtime is a dense read.
2014-07-27T22:44:54Z kristof: (talking about Rob Pike's language, not Clojure)
2014-07-27T22:49:00Z kristof: And once that's accomplished, I've got lots of hypothetical code sitting around for a very erlang-esque actor library placed on top of it.
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2014-07-27T22:54:39Z lmj`: kristof: My instinct would be to first write the async version of cl:getc -- code-walking, M:N scheduling, and all. When that works, write more counterparts from the CL package.
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2014-07-27T22:55:57Z lmj`: Eventually we have transparent lightweight threads spread across the cores.
2014-07-27T22:56:29Z lmj`: And maybe, eventually, some time from now, a CL implementation makes it all obsolete in one stroke.
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2014-07-27T22:57:51Z Quadrescence: I am somewhat liking how this is turning out, an implementation of interfaces and implementations: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143246
2014-07-27T22:58:33Z kristof: lmj`: What do you mean by getc? I feel like that was a typo.
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2014-07-27T22:59:02Z Xach: Quadrescence: does it complain if the implementation is incomplete?
2014-07-27T22:59:14Z Quadrescence: No, I haven't added that, but that's next and it's not hard.
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2014-07-27T22:59:44Z Quadrescence: Sorry, I'm dumb, yes I did add it and it does complain.
2014-07-27T22:59:47Z lmj`: kristof: oops, read-char :)
2014-07-27T22:59:54Z kristof: lol
2014-07-27T22:59:55Z kristof: This is not C!
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2014-07-27T23:00:53Z Quadrescence: Xach, http://paste.lisp.org/display/143246#1
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2014-07-27T23:01:39Z Quadrescence: The only thing I'd want is for the error message to list all of the things, which is what I referred to as easy above, but it just requires more boilerplate than that required by this.
2014-07-27T23:01:52Z Xach: yeah
2014-07-27T23:01:58Z Xach: cool.
2014-07-27T23:06:41Z lmj`: Xach: has anyone complained about Quicklisp binding *macroexpand-hook* during loading? I can think of a few quasi-legitimate reasons to setf the global *macroexpand-hook* -- gathering statistics, for example.
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2014-07-27T23:07:03Z Xach: lmj`: not yet.
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2014-07-28T00:01:05Z kristof: lmj`: What's wrong with cl-async's async-io-stream?
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2014-07-28T00:10:36Z lmj`: kristof: well a stream is insufficient on its own. We have to code walk and insert the suspend/resume points, as we were discussing.
2014-07-28T00:12:41Z lmj`: there needs to be a would-block-p operation
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2014-07-28T00:14:45Z Quadrescence: My interface stuff (along with the function discussed earlier) is here: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/raw/6011b49ef6a4fc9fdbb6017252492f7022560f36/interface.lisp
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2014-07-28T00:32:58Z preyalone: Does Scheme (esp. Chicken Scheme) have an equivalent to Common Lisps' (lisp-implementation-version) for querying the interpreter version information?
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2014-07-28T00:34:34Z preyalone: Ah, (chicken-version)
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2014-07-28T00:40:10Z zRecursive: preyalone: there is #scheme and #chicken
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2014-07-28T00:55:27Z preyalone: zRecursive, thanks. #chicken is where i found an answer :)
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2014-07-28T04:22:40Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-07-28T04:22:50Z pillton: Good morning beach!
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2014-07-28T04:59:01Z pillton wants COMPILER-MACRO-EXPAND.
2014-07-28T04:59:27Z beach: Yeah, I can see why.
2014-07-28T04:59:41Z beach: I wrote it for SICL, but it's not portable of course.
2014-07-28T05:00:14Z Bike: eh, it's pretty easy to write in terms of compiler-macro-function
2014-07-28T05:00:26Z Bike: just a search/replace on a definition of macroexpand, really
2014-07-28T05:00:31Z Bike: though there's the added complication of funcall.
2014-07-28T05:01:10Z pillton: Oh of course! I hadn't thought of that.
2014-07-28T05:01:24Z pillton: What an idiot.
2014-07-28T05:01:34Z beach: What about environments?
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2014-07-28T05:01:55Z Bike: compiler-macro-function takes an &env
2014-07-28T05:02:01Z Bike: er, an &optional environment, i mean.
2014-07-28T05:02:11Z beach: Right.
2014-07-28T05:02:28Z pillton: Oh wait, I had that.
2014-07-28T05:02:31Z Bike: i vaguely remember from testing that some implementations didn't seem to do shadowing right
2014-07-28T05:02:38Z Bike: but then, ccl doesn't even handle funcall last i checked, so whatever
2014-07-28T05:03:17Z pillton: What I wanted was something like (compiler-macroexpand '(let ((a 1)) (something-with-compiler-macro a)))
2014-07-28T05:03:46Z Bike: That's not really analogous to macroexpand. and a lot harder, obviously
2014-07-28T05:03:56Z beach: Yes, it requires a code walker.
2014-07-28T05:04:16Z pillton: You can do it in CLTL2.
2014-07-28T05:04:51Z Bike: how, exactly?
2014-07-28T05:05:00Z pillton: That is, create the environment that LET ends up creating.
2014-07-28T05:05:04Z Bike: cltl2 didn't even have compiler macros.
2014-07-28T05:05:15Z Bike: oh, yes it did, bah
2014-07-28T05:05:31Z Bike: yes, you could use cltl2 to write a portable code walker, it'd still be huge though
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2014-07-28T05:05:53Z pillton: I just want LET, LABELS, FLET and SYMBOL-MACROLET.
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2014-07-28T05:10:03Z beach: pillton: What is it that you are doing?
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2014-07-28T05:13:37Z pillton: I am writing the macro LOOP-ELEMENTS in http://hastebin.com/ogogewufow
2014-07-28T05:15:54Z beach: Looks non-trivial if you want good performance.
2014-07-28T05:16:35Z pillton: The compiler macro changes it to this: http://hastebin.com/esiqowakaw
2014-07-28T05:17:14Z pillton: Still not efficient for lists, but I don't really care about lists. I am just seeing how far I can go.
2014-07-28T05:20:03Z Bike: wait, why is it a compiler-macro and not a macro?
2014-07-28T05:21:28Z pillton: Well, there is a MACRO version but it uses an iterator abstraction.
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2014-07-28T05:49:37Z pillton: This works with no code walker. http://hastebin.com/upujuvehaq
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2014-07-28T05:50:26Z pillton: It records all of the expansions and then replays them on the input form.
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2014-07-28T09:29:58Z rick-monster: Hi I'm trying to get nanomsg to play nice with sbcl. Found someone's bindings (seemed half-finished and/or out of date) and was trying to hack those into useable form but the cffi stuff was proving a little too mindbending. Thinking now the best way for me is to write a thin layer of C functions to sit *between* cffi and lisp.  That way I can handle all the memory allocation directly in C and just pass strings and ints to/from my own linked object (
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2014-07-28T09:30:57Z rick-monster: my question is - does this seem like a good approach or are there some terrible pitfalls here?
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2014-07-28T09:34:08Z |3b|: cffi is lisp, so hard to be 'between' them
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2014-07-28T09:34:29Z rick-monster: I mean between cffi and the nanomsg shared object
2014-07-28T09:34:31Z |3b|: if the API is for some reason hard to wrap from cffi, a C wrapper might help
2014-07-28T09:34:51Z |3b|: c++ is the usual reason for needing extra C layer
2014-07-28T09:34:53Z brucem: nanomsg is a C API ... I've wrapped it for another language in the past with no real issue.
2014-07-28T09:35:33Z |3b|: if it is already C, learning cffi better is probably the better solution... getting local libaries loaded into lisp can be annoying
2014-07-28T09:35:39Z |3b|: local C libraries
2014-07-28T09:36:03Z rick-monster: I struggled with, for example how to write  'pointer to a pointer' in cffi
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2014-07-28T09:37:10Z |3b|: :pointer or (:pointer :pointer)
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2014-07-28T09:38:00Z rick-monster: (cffi:foreign-alloc :pointer :initial-element (cffi:null-pointer)) was my attempt to write char *buf = NULL;
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2014-07-28T09:41:02Z |3b|: that sounds more like char *buf[1] = {0};
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2014-07-28T09:42:28Z |3b|: char *buf = NULL; doesn't really translate... maybe (let ((buf (null-pointer))) ...)
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2014-07-28T10:07:59Z rick-monster: brucem, 3b thanks for the advice
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2014-07-28T11:05:12Z joe-w-bimedina: Would somebody mind showing me how, in a loop that does 100 iterations I can print 1 ten times, each of the first 10 iterations, then 2 10 times each of the second 10 iterations, and so on all the way up to 10....so I have printed to screen 1111111111222222222233333333334444444444...10101010101010101010, tried the gigamonkeys tutorial and couldn't figure it out from there
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2014-07-28T11:07:01Z H4ns: it is stunning.
2014-07-28T11:07:24Z joe-w-bimedina: crap, i think i just figured out its a double dotimes...one sec
2014-07-28T11:07:28Z H4ns: i mean.  this is a very simple programming question, and at the same time, you're trying to wrap a complex c++ library to be used from common lisp?
2014-07-28T11:07:46Z Guthur: building hunchentoot with :HUNCHENTOOT-NO-SSL in *features* does not seem to stop hunchentoot looking for libssl on windows
2014-07-28T11:07:55Z Guthur: ...using quicklisp
2014-07-28T11:08:05Z H4ns: Guthur: uh.  that'd warrant a bug report.
2014-07-28T11:08:24Z joe-w-bimedina: this is one part that is new to me, didnt pay too much attention in math class
2014-07-28T11:08:47Z Guthur: ah, damnit, my mistake
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2014-07-28T11:10:04Z Guthur: i'm trying to rush too much
2014-07-28T11:10:05Z |3b|: is the "one part" you missed "programming"?
2014-07-28T11:10:05Z didi: joe-w-bimedina: (loop for x from 1 below 100 do (print (truncate x 10)))
2014-07-28T11:10:46Z didi: One missing 0. Oh well.
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2014-07-28T11:11:11Z joe-w-bimedina: didi: thank you very much! I will take the time to study that now
2014-07-28T11:13:04Z didi: joe-w-bimedina: It's not entirely correct. You will need to fix it.
2014-07-28T11:13:27Z joe-w-bimedina: i changed the 1 to a 0...thanks again:)
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2014-07-28T11:14:10Z didi: joe-w-bimedina: If you want it to print 1-10 you should also add a `1+'. Or change the interval.
2014-07-28T11:14:49Z joe-w-bimedina: yea the truncate part was what I needed, I was trying to divide some way
2014-07-28T11:15:49Z didi: joe-w-bimedina: You could also leave the `0' out. (loop for x below 100 ...)
2014-07-28T11:17:35Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks, I do appreciate the extra knowledge
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2014-07-28T11:25:30Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry dont know who sent that but it didnt show up in the buffer
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2014-07-28T11:28:39Z joe-w-bimedina: can you send it again?
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2014-07-28T11:41:04Z rick-monster: |3b| thanks for correcting me on char = *buf.  Still struggling to translate this line into cffi: int bytes = nn_recv (sock, &buf, NN_MSG, 0);
2014-07-28T11:41:42Z |3b|: that goes with the previous line, and allocates its own memory??
2014-07-28T11:41:50Z rick-monster: yes
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2014-07-28T11:43:53Z |3b|: (with-foreign-object (buf :pointer) (nn-recv sock buf nn-msg 0) (mem-aref buf :char 0)) or something like that
2014-07-28T11:44:29Z |3b|: probably should call whatever frees the buffer if needed in that with-foreign-object as well
2014-07-28T11:45:56Z |3b|: if by "char *" it means c string in some predictable encoding, then you might want to let cffi translate it for you instead of dealing with mem-aref yourself
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2014-07-28T11:59:22Z rick-monster: |3b| got it! (cffi:foreign-string-to-lisp (cffi:mem-aref buf :pointer 0))
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2014-07-28T12:01:45Z |3b|: right, guess i forgot a dereference
2014-07-28T12:01:48Z rick-monster: thanks so much for your help
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2014-07-28T12:03:45Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina seems to be the kind of "programmers" that would fail lamentably at fizzbuzz.
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2014-07-28T12:46:42Z AeroNotix: pjb: they just seem to be trying to rush through a project and pretend they are learning something by fixing a lot of kludges and copied-from-irc code
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2014-07-28T12:55:27Z Xach: common-lisp.net git is not working for me. I get a connection reset by peer for pulls and clones. Does anyone else see that?
2014-07-28T13:01:54Z hitecnologys: Xach: can you give the link to what you're trying to clone?
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2014-07-28T13:03:47Z Xach: e.g. git://common-lisp.net/users/frideau/meta.git
2014-07-28T13:04:21Z hitecnologys: Xach: yes, connection reset too.
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2014-07-28T13:33:31Z eeeee: Hi everyone! I am trying to format some data from and to xml with the package "s-xml" ( http://common-lisp.net/project/s-xml/ ), I have a few hours trouble with the output, maybe someone can help me here... (s-xml:print-xml *sxml-string*) prints the data correct to the REPL, but is returning only #\> , (s-xml:print-xml-string *sxml-string*) is returning a quoted string... how can I remove the quotes from the output to save it as an corre
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2014-07-28T13:35:16Z Xach: cut off at "save it as an corre"
2014-07-28T13:35:58Z Xach: If you use something like (write-string my-xml-string stream) it will write to the stream without the quotes. The quotes are part of the reader syntax, not part of the string itself.
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2014-07-28T13:39:01Z loke_: Try (princ "foo") to see the difference. You'll see the output from the princ (first line) and then the return value from the princ call (second line)
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2014-07-28T13:46:41Z eeeee: @Xach @loke: I exchanged (print content out) with (write-string content out) and it worked =) I see there's need to do some more exercises on working with strings in detail. Thank you very much and have a pleasant day :)
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2014-07-28T20:17:46Z jasom: The ANSI standard doesn't impose any algorithmic complexity requirements on any functions, right?
2014-07-28T20:18:38Z Bicyclidine: don't think so.
2014-07-28T20:18:38Z minion: Bicyclidine, memo from pjb: lisp500 is a subset of CL therefore it can be discussed here.
2014-07-28T20:19:00Z Bicyclidine: i don't remember what that was in reference to. oh well.
2014-07-28T20:19:10Z jasom: so e.g. a conforming implementation could implement arrays as lists with O(n) access
2014-07-28T20:19:55Z Bicyclidine: yeah, the spec defines arrays in terms of "access in a cartesian coordinate system" rather than anything about memory
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2014-07-28T20:21:34Z Bicyclidine: some algorithms are specified pretty closely, like the reader or the printer, but i don't think it would be a huge problem to do something slightly weird timewise
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2014-07-28T20:23:52Z renard_: hi
2014-07-28T20:24:11Z renard_: is there a way to get how much memory an object is using ?
2014-07-28T20:24:25Z renard_: afair this is very implementation dependent
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2014-07-28T20:25:08Z renard_: I have some hash table, and structs I would like to know the amount of memory they use
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2014-07-28T20:25:39Z Xach: the data structures alone? or the things they contain, too?
2014-07-28T20:26:11Z renard_: Xach: both would be better but I would start with a simpe one
2014-07-28T20:26:22Z renard_: object-direct-size is ccl dependent
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2014-07-28T20:27:05Z renard_: In fact actually I use CLOS objects for a pet project
2014-07-28T20:27:21Z renard_: I was wondering how much I could gain using structs
2014-07-28T20:27:30Z Xach: I think David Lichteblau had something to sketch it out for SBCL, but it does require explicitly expressing what constitutes the object
2014-07-28T20:27:51Z renard_: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12230499/memory-usage-by-objects-in-common-lisp
2014-07-28T20:27:58Z renard_: this helps a little
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2014-07-28T20:54:14Z jasom: a rough estimate that works nearly everywhere is to: 1) full gc 2) (room) 3) allocate 1k objects 4) full gc 5) (room)
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2014-07-28T21:09:52Z jasom: (COMMON-LISP::LET ((COMMON-LISP-USER::X 1)) (COMMON-LISP::DECLARE (COMMON-LISP::SPECIAL COMMON-LISP-USER::X)) (COMMON-LISP::LET ((COMMON-LISP-USER::X 2)) (COMMON-LISP::+ COMMON-LISP-USER::X (COMMON-LISP::SYMBOL-VALUE (COMMON-LISP::QUOTE COMMON-LISP-USER::X))))) parencl.js:863 => 3
2014-07-28T21:10:11Z jasom: and dynamic bindings is working :)
2014-07-28T21:11:09Z jasom: though clearly my printer is still quite primative
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2014-07-28T21:11:46Z heddwch: ...CL in JS?
2014-07-28T21:11:50Z jasom: yup
2014-07-28T21:11:55Z heddwch: haha nice
2014-07-28T21:12:22Z heddwch: Use it along with weblocks :D
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2014-07-28T21:13:50Z jasom: My first version of that test I forgot to quote x in the symbol-value call and got an unbound-variable error (which is wrong, it should be a type-error) so I found another bug.
2014-07-28T21:14:34Z heddwch: ah heh
2014-07-28T21:17:04Z jasom: I think I now have enough of lisp implemented that I can define setf, and then I get to go back and write expansions for all of my current accessors
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2014-07-28T21:17:39Z heddwch: Very nice
2014-07-28T21:17:44Z jasom: (I've only implemented the function half of the accessors I have implemented so far; e.g. car symbol-value)
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2014-07-28T21:38:55Z jasom: ooh, here's a form that has unspecified behavior: (lambda () "a" "b" 2)
2014-07-28T21:41:00Z Bicyclidine: Why so? Docstring parsing?
2014-07-28T21:41:04Z jasom: yeah
2014-07-28T21:41:18Z pjb: renard_: about memory questions, to see how silly it is, in general, have a look at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e8oBF4IrgU  and ask yourself how much memory the universe must allocate to execute programs in that way?
2014-07-28T21:41:41Z jasom: sbcl signals a simple-error, ccl generates a lambda with no doc string
2014-07-28T21:42:00Z Bicyclidine: i don't see how that could be an error...
2014-07-28T21:42:39Z pjb: renard_: another example is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywWBy6J5gz8  again, try to ponder about the silliness of the question of how much memory is used.
2014-07-28T21:42:50Z heddwch: I don't think it should be, but the SBCL devs apparently felt differently
2014-07-28T21:42:58Z jasom: actually ccl doesn't seem to ever preserve doc strings about lambdas
2014-07-28T21:42:58Z pjb: jasom: it's perfectly specified.
2014-07-28T21:43:07Z heddwch: SBCL complains of duplicate docstring
2014-07-28T21:43:09Z pjb: Most implementations don't.
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2014-07-28T21:43:16Z pjb: SBCL is known to be bugged.
2014-07-28T21:43:38Z heddwch: heh
2014-07-28T21:43:40Z jasom: I suppose it depends on how you read clhs 3.4.11
2014-07-28T21:43:50Z jasom: "The consequences are unspecified if more than one such documentation string is present."
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2014-07-28T21:44:32Z jasom: ccl uses the 2nd docstring
2014-07-28T21:44:38Z jasom just rewrote it as a defun
2014-07-28T21:45:02Z jasom: ecl uses the 1st docstring
2014-07-28T21:45:23Z jasom: and clisp also signals an error
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2014-07-28T21:45:35Z heddwch: I don't see a docstring being too useful on a lambda anyway, other than as a bizarre form of comment
2014-07-28T21:45:50Z jasom: pjb: what do you think it is specified to do?
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2014-07-28T21:46:28Z jasom: heddwch: I find it super useful for debugging, particularly if the implementation doesn't tag lambdas in some other way (e.g. where they are defined)
2014-07-28T21:46:36Z Bicyclidine: heddwch: you can do (documentation some-function 'function)
2014-07-28T21:46:51Z jasom: heddwch: (debug-print (documentation some-lambda 'function))
2014-07-28T21:46:58Z jasom: now I know which lambda it is
2014-07-28T21:47:01Z heddwch: Ah, okay, thanks guys
2014-07-28T21:48:10Z jasom: An implementation is permitted to discard documentation strings at any time for implementation-defined reasons. <-- but non-portable due to this
2014-07-28T21:48:29Z Bicyclidine: well, then you just print NIL
2014-07-28T21:50:10Z pjb: jasom: cf. clhs lambda!  lambda lambda-list [[declaration* | documentation]] form* => function
2014-07-28T21:50:10Z pjb:  
2014-07-28T21:50:36Z Bicyclidine: that is certainly a quote
2014-07-28T21:52:22Z pjb: jasom: to have more than one docstring, you would need to have declarations.  But then you could also parse the function as having declarations inside form*.
2014-07-28T21:54:00Z Bicyclidine: jasom: alexandria:parse-body signals an error too, for your lil implementation list
2014-07-28T21:55:42Z jasom: pjb: I can think of no no reading of [[declaration* | documentation]] that would allow interspersed declarations and documentation strings, but not two sequential documentation strings
2014-07-28T21:56:04Z jasom: and other parts of the spec make it clear that interspersed declarations and documentation strings *are* allowed
2014-07-28T21:56:32Z jasom: nevermind 1.3.1.2.1 answers that
2014-07-28T21:56:50Z Bicyclidine: clhs 1.3.1.2.1
2014-07-28T21:56:50Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for 1.3.1.2.1.
2014-07-28T21:56:56Z jasom: 1.4.1.2.1 rather
2014-07-28T21:57:00Z Bicyclidine: clhs 1.4.1.2.1
2014-07-28T21:57:00Z specbot: Splicing in Modified BNF Syntax: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_daba.htm
2014-07-28T21:57:49Z jasom: clhs 3.4.11 seems useless then
2014-07-28T21:58:01Z jasom: since the BNF forbids the case it deals with
2014-07-28T21:58:03Z pjb: jasom: When you have a grammar s->{a|b}{b|c}, the parsing of abbbc can be ambiguous.  The rule of 3.4.11 resoves the ambiguity!
2014-07-28T21:58:35Z pjb: jasom: careful, in clhs, the syntax is not given in BNF, it's a special meta syntax defined in the CLHS!
2014-07-28T21:58:36Z jasom: okay the part where it says "if more than one such documentation string"
2014-07-28T21:59:00Z pjb: It doesn't mean anything, because there cannot be such duplicate documentation string.
2014-07-28T21:59:04Z jasom: since the modified BNF cannot match anything with two documentation strings
2014-07-28T21:59:07Z Bicyclidine: lisp has no syntax
2014-07-28T21:59:08Z pjb: Once you have a docstring, the remaining strings are forms.
2014-07-28T21:59:30Z jasom: so why did they even have "The consequences are unspecified if..." part then at all?
2014-07-28T21:59:45Z pjb: I don't know, it seems useles.
2014-07-28T21:59:46Z jasom: Bicyclidine: I beg to differ.
2014-07-28T21:59:46Z pjb: s
2014-07-28T22:00:03Z Bicyclidine: jasom: was sarcasm.
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2014-07-28T22:02:44Z jaimef: Sarcasm, a test for many forms of autism
2014-07-28T22:03:09Z Bicyclidine: don't, please.
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2014-07-28T22:03:47Z jasom: sarcasm: something that is hard to use in a text-only medium
2014-07-28T22:04:37Z jaimef: "Primary indicators used for Autism are they cannot detect if sarcasm, jokes or irony is being used in a conversation."
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2014-07-28T22:05:42Z Bicyclidine: can't a guy make a slightly mean comment on the internet without inviting psychoanalysis
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2014-07-28T22:06:00Z heddwch: Nope =/
2014-07-28T22:06:08Z pjb: If we weren't at least partially autists, we wouldn't be here.  Hence the tacit ban on sarcasm.  The textual nature of the medium is just an excuse to ban it.
2014-07-28T22:06:10Z didi: Oh Bicyclidine...
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2014-07-28T22:06:38Z jaimef: :P
2014-07-28T22:07:08Z jasom: TIL I'm autistic.  And that you can diagnose that over IRC.
2014-07-28T22:07:13Z jasom: (That was sarcasm)
2014-07-28T22:07:37Z heddwch: Apparently that's banned, so... Bad jasom. Bad.
2014-07-28T22:08:05Z jasom: heddwch: well after all, I'm autistic, so I didn't pick up on the social norm that it's banned...
2014-07-28T22:08:11Z heddwch: haha
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2014-07-28T22:08:48Z pjb: Has the CIA already developed their sarcasm detection algorithms? It could sell it to us…
2014-07-28T22:10:00Z heddwch: Or we could just stop with whatever this trend is of using autism in name calling :)
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2014-07-28T22:17:55Z joe-w-bimedina: what are the dangers of not freeing memory allocated with foreign-alloc, can someone show me a simple instance where this causes unsafe behavior , I have been trying but I cant make it fail so I can test my gc'ed-foreign-alloc function, on my C++ wrappers for instance I just can watch the ram go up if I dont free the memory, it is evident, but allocating a bunch of memory with foreign-alloc doesnt make my ram budge.
2014-07-28T22:18:46Z heddwch: The danger is running out of memory. It's called a memory leak.
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2014-07-28T22:19:55Z joe-w-bimedina: but my ram never goes up after running (foreign-alloc :int :initial-contents '(777 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)) a million times or more
2014-07-28T22:20:28Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: try a billion times?
2014-07-28T22:20:54Z jasom: a million times would only be a few megabytes
2014-07-28T22:21:07Z heddwch: It's lazy allocation
2014-07-28T22:21:31Z heddwch: The memory isn't committed until a page fault is triggered in the new allocation
2014-07-28T22:21:49Z jasom did not know that
2014-07-28T22:22:02Z jasom: heddwch: does it initialize it then too?
2014-07-28T22:22:19Z jasom: that seems like it could have surprising performance implications
2014-07-28T22:22:37Z joe-w-bimedina: I guess the bottom line is do you think I can fully trust this function: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/07ed36534e0b4aba2817
2014-07-28T22:23:26Z heddwch: jasom: Not usually, just gives you a chunk of memory (generally 4k). Page fault is usually triggered by you initializing it. It's a kernel optimization
2014-07-28T22:23:51Z jasom: heddwch: doesn't the :initial-contents initialize it though?
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2014-07-28T22:24:14Z heddwch: Ah, true, it should.
2014-07-28T22:24:25Z heddwch: Hm
2014-07-28T22:24:46Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: oh, that's a cute trick; it avoids closing over the pointer by closing over the address of the pointer.
2014-07-28T22:25:13Z joe-w-bimedina: is it safe, do you think
2014-07-28T22:25:41Z heddwch: uh
2014-07-28T22:25:43Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: if something else frees the pointer, then you have a double-free which is not safe; I see nothing terrible other than that
2014-07-28T22:25:55Z heddwch: Is that how you've been testing it, joe-w-bimedina
2014-07-28T22:26:04Z heddwch: ?*
2014-07-28T22:26:26Z jasom: e.g. (foreign-free (allocl ...)) would be unsafe
2014-07-28T22:26:49Z heddwch: ^
2014-07-28T22:26:59Z joe-w-bimedina: ok, thank you very much...yea I had nothing to test against my ram never goes up, its so well made,
2014-07-28T22:27:30Z heddwch: If that's how you've been testing it, that's why your ram never goes up — you /are/ freeing it
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2014-07-28T22:28:03Z joe-w-bimedina: no I test with foreign-alloc to see if it would fail, then I was going to test that in the same situation
2014-07-28T22:28:07Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: just don't use that to allocate memory that passes the pointer to a C library that will free it.
2014-07-28T22:28:27Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: but in general, you need to know who "owns" the memory with foreign-alloc anyway
2014-07-28T22:29:12Z jasom: With allocl, it becomes owned by lisp.  You can use tg:cancel-finalization to transfer ownership to the foreign library
2014-07-28T22:29:43Z heddwch: btw, allocating that 1,000,000 times works out to 30MB, so.. you may just not have noticed
2014-07-28T22:30:13Z heddwch: Assuming 32-bit ints*
2014-07-28T22:30:23Z joe-w-bimedina: so would c++ in this case always gc it, is it assured after running tg:cancel-finalization
2014-07-28T22:31:28Z heddwch: I don't know what your C++ GC thing is by this point, just the lisp side
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2014-07-28T22:33:43Z joe-w-bimedina: just noticed it goes up so slowly it is almost imperceptible... I updated gist with my c wrapper over this  Mat::Mat(Size size, int type, void* data, size_t step=AUTO_STEP)  the class Mat has a destructor but the C wrapper for it has a new that is the function i will be passing alloc1 to
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2014-07-28T22:34:11Z joe-w-bimedina: Mat::Mat(Size size, int type, void* data, size_t step=AUTO_STEP) is the C++ function I am wrapping
2014-07-28T22:34:53Z joe-w-bimedina: Or i would just be using it to pass data to C++ vectors
2014-07-28T22:34:59Z heddwch: Allocs are expensive, so slow, and you're allocating very small amounts of memory, so that makes sense
2014-07-28T22:35:49Z joe-w-bimedina: wonder why they take so long, I always call them at the top of my functions anyway
2014-07-28T22:36:59Z heddwch: Just how C(++) dynamic allocation works. If it's not to be long-lived, you should use the stack (local vars)
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2014-07-28T22:38:01Z tormar: CL n00b with other lisp experience here: How do I get my project into the repository used by quicklisp? Email the quicklisp maintainer?
2014-07-28T22:39:05Z heddwch: There's a #quicklisp
2014-07-28T22:39:12Z heddwch: I'd ask there :)
2014-07-28T22:39:20Z joe-w-bimedina: top of this link: http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/faq.html is some info
2014-07-28T22:40:47Z tormar: Joe-w-bimedina: thanks, I totally missed that :\
2014-07-28T22:43:18Z joe-w-bimedina: np there is this too..should  be helpful: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2010/11/devils-guide-to-quicklisp-projects.html
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2014-07-28T22:48:16Z heddwch: I wonder why sourceforge is frowned upon
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2014-07-28T22:49:31Z joe-w-bimedina: it says in the comments
2014-07-28T22:49:42Z heddwch: Will check, thanks
2014-07-28T22:50:04Z joe-w-bimedina: np :)
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2014-07-28T22:59:08Z jasom: It doesn't appear that asdf has a mechanism for recursively dumping all .lisp files that an operation would depend on?
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2014-07-28T23:01:42Z jasom: though it looks trivial to write on top of asdf:depends-on
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2014-07-29T01:28:27Z byte48: hi all!, wow I am reading the book common Lisp a gentle introduction is great and step to step for understand Lisp, that is a good recommendation for beginners, thank you very much
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2014-07-29T01:43:19Z kristof: byte48: Practical Common Lisp is the most thorough, best written introduction to Common Lisp. It walks you through almost all of the most important features of Common Lisp, has a great pedagogical style, and includes a great many chapters on example applications that put those features to good use.
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2014-07-29T01:44:47Z kristof: byte48: After that: 1) Paradigms of Aritifical Intelligence is a very good book on write efficient and flexible lisp programs, and 2) Let Over Lambda by Doug Hoyte and On Lisp by Paul Graham are books on advanced macro writing.
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2014-07-29T01:47:23Z byte48: kristof: yes is very fine and a great sugestion (the book CL a gentle introduction), thanks for that. ha!, Thank you very much kristof I'm taking note of the books
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2014-07-29T01:53:27Z pjb: kristof: PCL is NOT for beginner programmers!
2014-07-29T01:53:46Z pjb: PCL is for expert programmers who want to switch to CL.
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2014-07-29T02:42:36Z Xach: if you read it as a beginner, you might get prematurely old, cranky, and switch between wildly useless yet accurate advice, and plain old cantankerousness!
2014-07-29T02:42:43Z Xach: that is what happened to pjb! beware!
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2014-07-29T02:52:39Z heddwch: +1 Xach
2014-07-29T02:55:07Z byte48: :)
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2014-07-29T03:52:03Z theos: i still prefer ACL to PLC
2014-07-29T03:54:41Z heddwch: I prefer the ACLU to the AMA
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2014-07-29T04:06:44Z snardbafulators: It is time for conservative Republicans to stop being retards about abortion. Niggers get abortions at a rate that is greater their share of the population. It is in our interest to not only tolerate abortion but to promote taxpayer funded abortion on demand! Prolife = Niggerlover  Stop please! http://www.chimpout.com/forum/showthread.php?348710-73-of-Mississippi-abortions-are-of-useless-niglet-sprogs
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2014-07-29T04:08:47Z kristof: pjb: When he said "for a beginnner", I interpreted that as "beginner to common lisp".
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2014-07-29T04:20:41Z heddwch: What the hell..
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2014-07-29T05:22:05Z Guthur```: umm appears like users like snardbafulators are still around
2014-07-29T05:22:34Z Guthur```: An interesting twist on the usual message
2014-07-29T05:22:57Z |3b|: off-topic though
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2014-07-29T05:23:08Z Guthur```: hehe, it certainly was
2014-07-29T05:23:15Z |3b|: i mean talking about it :p
2014-07-29T05:23:53Z Guthur```: true, but i'm not going to loss sleep over it
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2014-07-29T10:03:49Z tormar: Within my project, how do I get the version number which I have specified in defsystem?
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2014-07-29T10:04:28Z easye: tormar: you could transverse the results of (asdf:find-system :your-system-here)
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2014-07-29T10:04:42Z easye: tormar: you could transverse the results of (asdf:find-system :your-system-here)
2014-07-29T10:05:40Z hitecnologys: tormar: (asdf:component-version (asdf:find-system :foobar))
2014-07-29T10:06:29Z tormar: Perfect, thanks!
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2014-07-29T11:54:19Z Ralt: how can I find out the definition of an object in the repl?
2014-07-29T11:54:38Z H4ns: M-.
2014-07-29T11:54:45Z H4ns: oh, wait, no.
2014-07-29T11:55:01Z H4ns: what do you mean by "definition" and "object", really?
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2014-07-29T12:14:53Z schjetne: Does anyone know of a library for accepting kerberos service tickets?
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2014-07-29T12:25:04Z pjb: Wouldn't it be fun to write such a library?
2014-07-29T12:26:07Z H4ns pushes a few yaks into the channel
2014-07-29T12:26:14Z schjetne: It would, but it would also be fun to quickload one
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2014-07-29T12:26:19Z schjetne: Quickloading is fun.
2014-07-29T12:28:36Z Ralt: H4ns: knowing the list of slots of an object, for example
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2014-07-29T12:28:44Z Ralt: or basically, seeing the defclass
2014-07-29T12:28:57Z H4ns: Ralt: type M-. on the class name
2014-07-29T12:29:09Z Ralt: H4ns: I infer the class name from somewhere else
2014-07-29T12:29:15Z Ralt: but thanks, I'll see
2014-07-29T12:29:15Z H4ns: Ralt: or inspect the object.
2014-07-29T12:29:26Z |3b|: inspect or C-c I might also provide useful information
2014-07-29T12:29:36Z H4ns: Ralt: (class-name (class-of object))
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2014-07-29T12:30:24Z Ralt: hm, weird
2014-07-29T12:30:35Z Ralt: I get that the class name is asdf:system
2014-07-29T12:30:45Z Ralt: but slime-edit-definition leads me to an empty buffer
2014-07-29T12:30:50Z Ralt: (M-.)
2014-07-29T12:32:04Z H4ns: maybe you're using an asdf that has been distributed as fasl file or in an image and the source location cannot be found?
2014-07-29T12:32:14Z H4ns: Ralt: what is the name of the empty buffer?
2014-07-29T12:32:15Z Ralt: hm, probably
2014-07-29T12:32:26Z Ralt: when using on the name, I get "not found..."
2014-07-29T12:32:36Z Ralt: don't know how to retrieve source for SYMBOL
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2014-07-29T12:33:07Z Ralt: that's my issue then: how do I find out the list of slots etc?
2014-07-29T12:33:25Z H4ns: (mop:class-slots (class-of object))
2014-07-29T12:33:31Z splittist: or inspect
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2014-07-29T12:33:44Z H4ns: (mapcar #'mop:slot-definition-name *)
2014-07-29T12:34:12Z Ralt: oh, that's my issue
2014-07-29T12:34:17Z Ralt: I don't have mop, apparently
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2014-07-29T12:34:38Z Ralt: saw these methods but couldn't find them on my system
2014-07-29T12:34:41Z H4ns: no, that is not your issue
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2014-07-29T12:35:00Z H4ns: (apropos "slot-definition-name") will tell you what package your implementation uses for the mop, natively
2014-07-29T12:35:16Z Ralt: oh
2014-07-29T12:35:18Z Ralt: nice
2014-07-29T12:35:20Z H4ns: but really, C-c I will probably help.
2014-07-29T12:36:10Z H4ns: Ralt: if you feel that you're ready for the mop, use the closer-mop compatibility package which is in quicklisp.
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2014-07-29T12:37:14Z Ralt: oh indeed
2014-07-29T12:37:18Z Ralt: thanks for all the info
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2014-07-29T12:47:53Z schjetne: there are SASL and GSSAPI libs...
2014-07-29T12:48:44Z Cymew: schjetne: Are you trying to kerberize your program?
2014-07-29T12:48:54Z schjetne: yes, a web service
2014-07-29T12:49:29Z Cymew: I remember I looked into that once and never got anywhere. I don't remember why, though. Will be interesting to hear if you find a way.
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2014-07-29T14:08:57Z joe-w-bimedina: I wondered if someone could help me with this. I'm trying to learn to use DECLAIM to speed up some code and when I add it I get 2 warnings, Here is the gist: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/22a2b243e289533d7215  some of the functions you wont know, so if its not easy to just take a quick look and spot what the issue is feel free to just ignore this post, I dont want to take up your time by posting difficult to read stuff.
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2014-07-29T14:11:26Z Zhivago: Why is your defun inside the let?
2014-07-29T14:12:00Z |3b|: second error sounds correct, first one sounds like a style warning or note
2014-07-29T14:13:12Z joe-w-bimedina: oops they are all style warnings,  it is so foreign-alloc, which takes a little longer to run, only gets run once
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2014-07-29T14:55:29Z tib: I want to program my elbow using Lisp.
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2014-07-29T14:58:23Z dlowe: you'll need to find an implementation that compiles to your elbow
2014-07-29T14:58:54Z tib: Ok, so that makes sense.
2014-07-29T14:59:06Z tib: Any such compilers in development?
2014-07-29T14:59:28Z dlowe: Anything is possible in the open source world. Check on github.
2014-07-29T14:59:46Z H4ns: you could also replace your elbow with a computer
2014-07-29T14:59:51Z H4ns: that'd make your search easier
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2014-07-29T15:00:28Z oGMo: if you insist on running it on your elbow you may have issues, but if you can run it on your arm, there are solutions available
2014-07-29T15:00:48Z tib: oo wordplay
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2014-07-29T15:01:13Z tib: on a normal note. is lisp worth learning?
2014-07-29T15:01:21Z tib: or should I just learn ruby?
2014-07-29T15:01:33Z oGMo: tib: that depends. if you wish to remain happy with other languages, then no.
2014-07-29T15:01:46Z H4ns: tib: lisp has the potential to make you a better programmer.  ruby not so much.
2014-07-29T15:01:56Z H4ns: tib: but ask in #ruby to get the reverse answer
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2014-07-29T15:02:12Z tib: Then everyone's wrong and I should learn both.
2014-07-29T15:02:19Z oGMo: i would recommend smalltalk before ruby, at least, but lisp will certainly teach you things you can't get elsewhere
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2014-07-29T15:02:55Z tib: Why smalltalk before ruby?
2014-07-29T15:04:00Z dlowe: ruby borrows a lot from smalltalk
2014-07-29T15:04:37Z H4ns: tib: we cannot answer your question if you don't tell us what you want to program while learning.
2014-07-29T15:04:41Z dlowe: Everyone should learn a lisp, an ML,  an assembly language, prolog, smalltalk, C, haskell, and forth (not an exhaustive list)
2014-07-29T15:04:51Z rszeno: there is no "better" language, everything depend of who is using it
2014-07-29T15:05:00Z dlowe: rszeno: there are "worse" languages.
2014-07-29T15:05:06Z tib: I want to make the first fully intelligent AI for an elbow.
2014-07-29T15:05:08Z dlowe: therefore there must be "better" ones
2014-07-29T15:05:08Z oGMo: dlowe: no but that covers the vast majority
2014-07-29T15:05:15Z rszeno: depend of programmer
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2014-07-29T15:05:37Z dlowe: rszeno: let me know how that brainfuck operating system goes
2014-07-29T15:05:48Z H4ns: tib: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMOmB1q8W4Y
2014-07-29T15:06:03Z tib: I cannot watch I'm in a terminus
2014-07-29T15:06:23Z tib: I shall save the link and read the video description later.
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2014-07-29T15:07:57Z pjb: tib: sicl is in development; I don't know what it targets. It's written in CL.
2014-07-29T15:09:40Z tib: No sure what that is.
2014-07-29T15:10:11Z tib: I want to make a clicky gui thing in lisp
2014-07-29T15:10:18Z tib: does that make any sense?
2014-07-29T15:10:24Z rszeno: tib: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2014-07-29T15:10:25Z Guthur: does your elbow click?
2014-07-29T15:10:31Z Guthur: should probably get that seen to
2014-07-29T15:10:57Z tib: Not to the best of my knowledge Guther
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2014-07-29T15:11:07Z tib: I rue the dya
2014-07-29T15:11:25Z tib: However what is lisp best for?
2014-07-29T15:11:29Z tib: or good for?
2014-07-29T15:11:32Z H4ns: for programming.
2014-07-29T15:11:48Z dlowe: destroying your enemies, seeing them driven before you.
2014-07-29T15:12:11Z Guthur: with weapons from a more civilized age
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2014-07-29T15:14:12Z tib: Apart from vague generalisations and violence, anything more specific?
2014-07-29T15:14:46Z dlowe: common lisp is a general purpose programming language. It's been used for nearly everything.
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2014-07-29T15:15:02Z tib: If I wanted to talk to internet apis, and get notifications on the desktop on windows/linux would that be an okay first project?
2014-07-29T15:15:23Z dlowe: yeah, it works fine. grab a gtk CL interface and knock yourself out
2014-07-29T15:15:24Z tib: okay/easily-achievable
2014-07-29T15:15:37Z dlowe: whether or not it's easy depends on your own history
2014-07-29T15:15:48Z tib: I am an average programmer.
2014-07-29T15:16:47Z tib: With better than average elbows.
2014-07-29T15:16:58Z rszeno: this is what you say or what you belive? :)
2014-07-29T15:17:09Z tib: This is what I know to believe.
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2014-07-29T15:17:43Z dlowe: You'll never know how hard it is until you try.
2014-07-29T15:18:04Z splittist: tib: if you want to write something that looks like everything else, then you should probably write it in the language everything else uses. If you want to write something no-one else has written, lisp is your best bet. Intermediate goals have intermediate answers.
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2014-07-29T15:19:01Z tib: Examples of things no-one else had written until they were written by someone in lisp?
2014-07-29T15:19:26Z dlowe: airfare search
2014-07-29T15:19:44Z dlowe: stepping debuggers
2014-07-29T15:20:47Z tib: cool.
2014-07-29T15:20:49Z p_l: airfare search was written before, though... but compare the scale of the enterprise and how far ITA got
2014-07-29T15:20:49Z splittist: symbolic manipulation; everything in AI up until 1980 or so
2014-07-29T15:21:03Z dlowe: p_l: actually, I think ITA was the first
2014-07-29T15:21:03Z tib: also splittist your answer was like
2014-07-29T15:21:07Z p_l: dlowe: nope
2014-07-29T15:21:17Z dlowe: p_l: do tell
2014-07-29T15:21:18Z tib: I'm having to google
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2014-07-29T15:21:25Z p_l: dlowe: the impressive part was that they were late comers *and* rocked it
2014-07-29T15:21:54Z H4ns: does google use qpx for the airfare search that they now offer?  it is impressive.
2014-07-29T15:22:01Z dlowe: H4ns: yes
2014-07-29T15:22:05Z H4ns: dlowe: wow.
2014-07-29T15:22:18Z dlowe: it is now easily the largest lisp installation in the world
2014-07-29T15:22:23Z jdz_: wasn't [advanced] 3D modeling also first done in Lisp (Symbolics)?
2014-07-29T15:22:28Z p_l: dlowe: SABRE is pretty much the ancient dinosaur that does as a service all kinds of airline operations, including reservations etc.
2014-07-29T15:22:50Z p_l: (I think they started doing reservation handling in 1960)
2014-07-29T15:22:50Z dlowe: p_l: that's just the GDS/PSS. It doesn't search across its own boundries.
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2014-07-29T15:24:35Z dlowe: More importantly, it couldn't search for routes or calculate fares correctly
2014-07-29T15:25:01Z p_l: dlowe: fares calculated by public-access QPX interface aren't correct either
2014-07-29T15:25:18Z dlowe: AFAIK, the industry standard pre-ITA was that a travel agent would calculate the fare three times and take the average
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2014-07-29T15:28:23Z tib: okay thanks for your ideas and opinions and help etc.
2014-07-29T15:28:39Z pjb: AFAIK, there are more failed air fare or air controller projects than successful.  The success of ITA makes it 100% success for lisp, much better than for the other languages.
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2014-07-29T15:29:19Z dlowe: well, the lisp reservation system has been canceled. We're still using it a ton for the flight search, though.
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2014-07-29T15:29:33Z pjb: jdz: it's safe enough to say that everything was first done in lisp.
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2014-07-29T15:29:46Z dlowe: and was canceled for reasons entirely unrelated to the technologies used
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2014-07-29T15:30:14Z inklesspen: dlowe: oh hey, are you at ITA/Google?
2014-07-29T15:30:25Z dlowe: inklesspen: ... maybe?
2014-07-29T15:30:53Z inklesspen: i used to be at google mountain view and i had some chats about switching to ITA because I wanted to work with lisp. never happened, though.
2014-07-29T15:31:09Z pjb: inklesspen: that's usual in companies.
2014-07-29T15:31:16Z inklesspen: heh
2014-07-29T15:31:21Z pjb: More talk than actual letting do what you want.
2014-07-29T15:31:36Z inklesspen: well, they told me ITA needed more hard compsci chops than I have.
2014-07-29T15:31:48Z inklesspen: deep magicks and such
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2014-07-29T16:06:55Z billstclair: ITA had puzzles you needed to solve quickly during their interviews. I was only able to work there because they started taking contractors, who were vetted by Clozure instead of going through their usual interview process.
2014-07-29T16:07:02Z billstclair: That was pre-google
2014-07-29T16:07:47Z p_l: ugh, puzzles
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2014-07-29T16:14:49Z p_l: It's always funny to me though how many, many websites will in recent articles still mention the stupid brain-teaser questions when it comes to google recruitement...
2014-07-29T16:15:04Z inklesspen: yeah
2014-07-29T16:15:17Z inklesspen: though i did once see another google interviewer using those.
2014-07-29T16:15:21Z inklesspen: even though he wasn't supposed to.
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2014-07-29T16:16:57Z p_l: in my several phone screens and interviews, I was fortunately never asked a brain teaser
2014-07-29T16:18:41Z p_l: a bit ot: interesting job requiremt: "You should be skilled in writing a basic version of most programs in bin/ in some language. Please note you will not be asked to rewrite bash in the interview."
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2014-07-29T16:22:53Z inklesspen: that's an interesting one
2014-07-29T16:22:57Z rick-monster: working some more on these nanomsg bindings I discovered sbcl craps out on sigabrt
2014-07-29T16:23:01Z inklesspen: i'm honestly not sure what's all in bin/
2014-07-29T16:23:11Z rick-monster: there's a workaround here http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.devel/14333
2014-07-29T16:23:15Z inklesspen: there's a '[' in bin. wtf is that.
2014-07-29T16:23:29Z abeaumont: it's the test program
2014-07-29T16:24:21Z rick-monster: was wondering whether people here would consider this a bug in sbcl or a bug in the nanomsg code. (nanomsg throws sigabrt on non-fatal errors)
2014-07-29T16:24:48Z inklesspen: of the things busybox does, i bet i could only tell you what a third of them even _do_, let alone implement them.
2014-07-29T16:26:48Z p_l: inklesspen: [, also known as 'test', is the program you use to do conditionals in shell scripts :)
2014-07-29T16:28:48Z inklesspen: i don't think i've ever written a shell script with any sort of logic whatsoever.
2014-07-29T16:28:56Z inklesspen: i just use python
2014-07-29T16:28:58Z inklesspen: :(
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2014-07-29T17:06:44Z jasom: inklesspen: I wrote a sh implementation in common lisp; it relies on [ being in the path (most shells implement it as a builtin)
2014-07-29T17:07:49Z FareWell: jasom: nice
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2014-07-29T17:08:07Z FareWell: jasom: this combined with inferior-shell...
2014-07-29T17:08:18Z FareWell: jasom: how do you handle forking and pipes?
2014-07-29T17:08:39Z jasom: FareWell: it's not quite complete yet, but does have the extension where $[(some-lisp-expr)] gets expanded to the result of the lisp expression
2014-07-29T17:08:42Z jasom: FareWell: iolib
2014-07-29T17:08:52Z jasom: FareWell: which limits the portability
2014-07-29T17:09:36Z jasom: FareWell: I mainly wrote it for didactic reasons; I probably know less about shell than I do about any other language I use even half as much as shell, and I wanted to try out iolib
2014-07-29T17:10:09Z FareWell: jasom: that's great.
2014-07-29T17:10:27Z jasom: s/know/knew (I know lots more about shell than I used to)
2014-07-29T17:10:47Z jasom: I strictly limited myself to posix sh though, so some of the bash extensions still surprise me from time to time
2014-07-29T17:10:59Z FareWell: jasom: could you make your pipe stuff into an iolib backend for run-program and/or inferior-shell?
2014-07-29T17:11:28Z jasom: I suppose I could
2014-07-29T17:11:46Z FareWell: if you need more pluggability and/or fixing the API, I'll fix it for you
2014-07-29T17:11:55Z jasom: I still have about 10 required builtins unimplemented (mostly involving job stuff)
2014-07-29T17:12:02Z FareWell: are you using threads or an event loop?
2014-07-29T17:12:11Z jasom: also it does call fork() so it's useless in a multi-threaded environment on sbcl and ccl
2014-07-29T17:12:34Z jasom: FareWell: I use fork()
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2014-07-29T17:12:52Z jasom: all subshells are subprocesses
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2014-07-29T17:13:04Z jasom: and lisp-substitution happens in-process
2014-07-29T17:13:04Z JuanDaugherty: how's it compare to scsh?
2014-07-29T17:13:25Z FareWell: wow, I managed to break more stuff in cl-launch
2014-07-29T17:13:34Z FareWell: I thought I was just adding some trivial features
2014-07-29T17:14:01Z FareWell: to be fair, maybe it was already broken before, and no one seems to be using pre-images (yet)
2014-07-29T17:14:03Z jasom: JuanDaugherty: Fairly orthogonal; it's specifically a /bin/sh implementation, so implements the posix shell language
2014-07-29T17:14:32Z JuanDaugherty: orthogonal it what sense? cl vs. scheme?
2014-07-29T17:14:40Z JuanDaugherty: *in what
2014-07-29T17:14:42Z jasom: JuanDaugherty: solving a different problem than scsh
2014-07-29T17:15:02Z jasom: scsh embedds a sexpr based DSL inside a scheme environment
2014-07-29T17:15:43Z jasom: plush (my project) re-implements /bin/sh using lisp as the implementation language.  The only crossover is that plush does allow lisp expressions to be expanded inside the shell
2014-07-29T17:15:49Z JuanDaugherty: http://scsh.net/
2014-07-29T17:16:22Z jasom: This in scsh: (& (| (gunzip) (detex) (spell) (lpr -Ppulp)) (< paper.tex.gz))
2014-07-29T17:16:24Z FareWell: next exercise: add your shell as one of the supported sh implementations for cl-launch. The mind boggles.
2014-07-29T17:16:38Z jasom: would be written as this in plush: gunzip < paper.tex.gz | detex | spell | lpr -Ppulp &
2014-07-29T17:16:47Z FareWell: in inferior-shell, I use pipe, because | is special syntax
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2014-07-29T17:17:31Z FareWell: (pipe (gunzip (< paper.tex.gz)) (detex) (spell) (lpr "-Ppulp"))
2014-07-29T17:17:38Z jasom: and the job scheduling in plush is unfinished at the moment; I just added support for & and have no implementation of wait bg fg etc.
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2014-07-29T17:19:38Z dlowe: The best part of scsh is the acknowledgements
2014-07-29T17:19:45Z jasom: FareWell: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143255
2014-07-29T17:20:10Z jasom: FareWell: the hardest thing to get right was alias and here-docs
2014-07-29T17:20:22Z jasom: b/c alias causes retokenization
2014-07-29T17:20:32Z jasom: but you don't know if you hit an alias until parsing
2014-07-29T17:20:39Z jasom: PITA
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2014-07-29T17:20:50Z jasom: and you can have multiple here-docs on the same line
2014-07-29T17:21:04Z jasom: foo <<EOF & bar <<EOF
2014-07-29T17:21:04Z FareWell: multiple here-docs on the same line? yike
2014-07-29T17:21:14Z jasom: that's valid sh
2014-07-29T17:21:36Z jasom: fortunately the standard doesn't require this to work (though korn derivatives allow it): $(foo <<EOF)
2014-07-29T17:22:00Z jasom: bourne derivatives choke and korn derivatives handle that one
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2014-07-29T17:25:51Z jasom: whoops, my annotation is broken; I forgot I just tried replacing the tokenizer with esrap instead of smug (since esrap already maintains file position it made resetting easier) and forgot I hadn't fixed that yet.
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2014-07-29T17:27:16Z joe-w-bimedina: I wondered if someone could help me with the logic on this function , the mat-data function inside too important. The %mat-data function is supposed to only run foreign-alloc once and save the data in PREVIOUS so if I run %mat-data again it will use the old data and thus greatly improve the speed of the function. But if I run the function again with a new cffi-type and the same list it uses the old data pointer and the elements are typed wr
2014-07-29T17:27:16Z joe-w-bimedina: ong, how do fix that?
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2014-07-29T17:27:29Z joe-w-bimedina: *inside isn't
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2014-07-29T17:28:07Z jasom: FareWell: example of 2 here-docs being parsed http://paste.lisp.org/display/143255#2
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2014-07-29T17:30:42Z jasom: the result of a parse is just something that you can mapc #'eval on.  plush-parser implements the parsing and plush implements the actual process logic and word expansions (though it may call back into plush-parser to do the fancier substitutions obviously)
2014-07-29T17:31:05Z joe-w-bimedina: updated gist to show the 4th arg is a list
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2014-07-29T17:33:00Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/plush/blob/master/plush-parser.lisp <-- there's all 1600 lines of ugliness for parsing sh
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2014-07-29T17:33:59Z jasom: The esrap version is slightly cleaner, since esrap is more suited to unambiguous grammars anyway, and I didn't have to fake up a stream-type that knows its position like I did for smug
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2014-07-29T17:41:54Z joe-w-bimedina: never mind, just fixed it:)
2014-07-29T17:42:46Z ehu: question: what on common-lisp.net was collecting the git repositories in /var/git before?
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2014-07-29T17:48:50Z Xach: goblins perhaps
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2014-07-29T18:13:18Z ehu: Xach: probably, because I can't find scripts to update the links...
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2014-07-29T18:13:35Z ioops: hi
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2014-07-29T18:15:48Z Xach: hi ioops
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2014-07-29T18:25:00Z JuanDaugherty: moin ioops
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2014-07-29T18:39:41Z ehu: 1630 blocked IPs
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2014-07-29T18:54:01Z ehu: Xach: do you have the git access issues today as well?
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2014-07-29T18:55:02Z Xach: ehu: I did an hour ago.
2014-07-29T18:55:05Z Xach: I'll try now.
2014-07-29T18:55:13Z Xach: Works now!
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2014-07-29T18:55:48Z ehu: ok. then maybe it was related to my restore for gitweb as well.
2014-07-29T18:56:13Z ehu: it's a most horrible error report from git if it is, but if it works, that's good.
2014-07-29T18:56:25Z ehu: please report back if you have any further issues.
2014-07-29T18:56:33Z Xach: I'll try building everything and let you know. Thanks again.
2014-07-29T18:57:07Z ehu: welcome.
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2014-07-29T19:51:17Z FareWell: jasom, here?
2014-07-29T19:51:24Z jasom: FareWell: yup
2014-07-29T19:51:28Z FareWell: Xach: is the uiop tarball now working?
2014-07-29T19:52:24Z FareWell: jasom: my python parser in clojure is essentially using the same technique as smug, and I did have to first write an adapter to transform i/o streams into lazy seq's of char+position
2014-07-29T19:52:44Z FareWell: how does your parser compare to that of some C implementations?
2014-07-29T19:53:21Z jasom: FareWell: no clue
2014-07-29T19:53:37Z jasom: FareWell: it's very different, since I wrote it from scratch, and as I implement more backend features I have found a few  bugs
2014-07-29T19:53:41Z jasom: certainly not as well tested
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2014-07-29T19:53:52Z jasom: I'm rewriting in esrap, as smug was a bit of a moving target
2014-07-29T19:54:17Z jasom: I just found a bug with subshell expressions, for example
2014-07-29T19:54:49Z Xach: FareWell: yes, thanks.
2014-07-29T19:55:06Z jasom: I have tokenizer and most of the expansion parsers rewritten in esrap
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2014-07-29T19:56:40Z FareWell tries to debug a bug that disappears when you run it a second time
2014-07-29T19:56:46Z FareWell: or, when caching fails.
2014-07-29T19:58:27Z FareWell: Xach: sorry for the breakage.
2014-07-29T20:00:01Z Xach: No problem.
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2014-07-29T20:17:54Z FareWell wanted to say of cl-launch that it "just works", but realizes that its preimage feature is broken in some cases (i.e. using cl-launch and/or asdf to dump an image, then re-starting a later build from said image).
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2014-07-29T20:32:50Z FareWell: OK, I think I managed to refactor cl-launch for more correct behavior (errors were due to incomplete refactoring of some minor features).
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2014-07-29T20:35:01Z FareWell: Xach: what's the semantics of --compress-core for cl-buildapp on ccl?
2014-07-29T20:37:57Z FareWell: or --dynamic-space-size
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2014-07-29T20:39:31Z Xach: FareWell: I think they are ignored, currently. It is possible that in the near future their inappropriate use will signal an error.
2014-07-29T20:39:37Z Xach: inapplicable use, anyway.
2014-07-29T20:39:52Z Xach: I didn't add the ccl support, and some aspects of it I don't like a lot, so it may change when I have time to change it.
2014-07-29T20:40:19Z FareWell: Xach: yeah, I was hesitating between erroring out or ignoring or issueing a warning. Meh.
2014-07-29T20:40:39Z FareWell: Right now, I don't support it at all. Maybe I should leave that as an exercise to my successor.
2014-07-29T20:40:55Z FareWell: (I just finished the last *hard* refactoring that was on the TODO file)
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2014-07-29T20:41:47Z FareWell: (I made cl-launch compatible with a lot of the buildapp options)
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2014-07-29T20:42:22Z FareWell: (but there are still features that one has and the other has not)
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2014-07-29T20:43:19Z FareWell: cl-launch has improved a lot with version 4, so next time you feel like hacking buildapp, you might steal a few things from cl-launch, and hopefully preserve compatibility.
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2014-07-29T20:43:59Z FareWell: one feature I found useful: -sp, short for --system-package, that both loads a system and changes the current package.
2014-07-29T20:44:22Z FareWell: also, when using Quicklisp, I now load the systems with quickload rather than load-system.
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2014-07-29T22:21:23Z mikem`: Any one know how to Deal wih the following compiler warning from SBCL: Derived type of FREEDOM is (VALUES FIXNUM &OPTIONAL) conflicting with its asserted type DOUBLE-FLOAT.
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2014-07-29T22:22:32Z mikem`: The function has a tyle declaimation where fredom is fixnum and a declaraion of the same inside the function.
2014-07-29T22:23:10Z Bicyclidine: paste the code? possibly you did (some-function-using-a-double freedom)
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2014-07-29T22:24:36Z mikem`: (declaim (ftype (function (fixnum) (double-float)) chi-square-randomn)
2014-07-29T22:24:36Z mikem`:          (inline chi-square-random))
2014-07-29T22:24:36Z mikem`:  
2014-07-29T22:24:36Z mikem`: (defun chi-square-random (freedom)
2014-07-29T22:24:39Z mikem`:     (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0) (debug 0))
2014-07-29T22:24:42Z mikem`:              (type fixnum freedom))
2014-07-29T22:24:45Z mikem`:     (case freedom
2014-07-29T22:24:49Z mikem`:       (1 (let ((u (half-normal-random 1d0)))
2014-07-29T22:24:52Z mikem`:            (declare (type double-float u))
2014-07-29T22:24:55Z mikem`:            (* u u)))
2014-07-29T22:25:00Z mikem`:       (2 (exp-random 2d0 nil))
2014-07-29T22:25:00Z mikem`:       (t (if (< freedom (the fixnum chi-square-switch-freedom))
2014-07-29T22:25:03Z mikem`:              (chi-square-convolution freedom)
2014-07-29T22:25:03Z Bicyclidine: paste.lisp.org
2014-07-29T22:25:06Z mikem`:              (* 2d0 (the double-float (gamma-compression-shape-big (/ (the double-float freedom) 2d0))))))))
2014-07-29T22:25:10Z mikem`:  
2014-07-29T22:25:37Z mikem`: Ah, okay forgot about paste
2014-07-29T22:25:42Z Bicyclidine: ok well i'm just gonna point out you have (the double-float freedom) so you are directly asserting freedom is a double-float, which is obviously nonsensical given the earlier declaration
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2014-07-29T22:26:48Z Bicyclidine: if you want to make a float with the value of the fixnum, that's a different operation. "the" is just syntax to assert the type of a value, it does no coercion.
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2014-07-29T22:31:36Z jasom: Is there a convention for naming a predicate that is the inverse of another predicate
2014-07-29T22:31:54Z nightfly: ^not- maybe?
2014-07-29T22:31:56Z jasom: e.g. I have reserved-word-p, what would the inverse be named? not-reserved-word-p?
2014-07-29T22:32:18Z mikem`: hmm , removing the inner declaration seemed to appease it. Thanks
2014-07-29T22:32:26Z Bicyclidine: (complement #'reserved-word-p) (a joke)
2014-07-29T22:33:02Z jasom: yeah, I need it to have a name so I can use it with esrap (esrap, why u no take lambdas?)
2014-07-29T22:34:11Z Bicyclidine: that's weird.
2014-07-29T22:35:15Z Bicyclidine: well, it looks like you can provide a lambda expression to defrule :function, but i don't know if that's what you're doing
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2014-07-29T22:35:58Z jasom: no, that's not what I'm doing
2014-07-29T22:36:39Z jasom: this is for doing e.g. (reserved-word-p word) (where word is a non-terminal) you can fail if the production doesn't pass a predicate, but it needs to be a symbol naming a function
2014-07-29T22:37:29Z jasom: you can't do ((lambda (x) (member x +reserved-words+ :test #'equal)) word)
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2014-07-29T22:38:05Z Bicyclidine: well, i don't think there's a convention, i'd just do not- or un
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2014-07-30T04:03:07Z drmeister: Does anyone have thoughts on implementing lambda-list destructuring when passing arguments in registers?
2014-07-30T04:04:22Z drmeister: It's easy to destructure lambda-lists when the arguments are an array of pointers.   It's harder when they are in registers.
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2014-07-30T04:04:24Z Zhivago: drmeister: Well, you have limited options when dealing with &rest and &whole.
2014-07-30T04:04:52Z Zhivago: Otherwise it sounds like unrolling would probably do the trick?
2014-07-30T04:05:21Z drmeister: I've reduced the problem down to a sequence of required arguments, a sequence of optional arguments, a rest argument and a sequence of keyword arguments
2014-07-30T04:05:33Z drmeister: What is unrolling?
2014-07-30T04:05:51Z Zhivago: Well, the destructuring is a recursive operation, pretty much.
2014-07-30T04:06:15Z drmeister: Please go on.
2014-07-30T04:06:19Z Zhivago: If you unroll those, then it should turn into a bunch of assignments unless you hit &rest, etc.
2014-07-30T04:07:07Z drmeister: Here's what I'm doing.
2014-07-30T04:08:06Z drmeister: Previously, in "C" pseudocode - I passed arguments to functions using (int nargs, T* argarray[])
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2014-07-30T04:10:05Z drmeister: I'm simplifying things a bit - the real calling convention was (multiple_values* result, ActivationFrame* closed_over_env, int nargs, T* argarray[])
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2014-07-30T04:11:24Z drmeister: The problem with that is that the caller had to allocate argarray (on the heap), initialize it, fill it with arguments, call the function and the callee would destructure nargs/argarray into an new binding environment, return and then the caller would deallocate the argarray.
2014-07-30T04:11:35Z drmeister: This is expensive and slow but it worked.
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2014-07-30T04:12:32Z drmeister: So I'm switching to a calling convention that looks like this (multiple_values* result, ActivationFrame* closed_over_env, int nargs, T* arg0, T* arg1, T* arg2, ... )
2014-07-30T04:13:18Z drmeister: The first three arguments are now passed in registers and arguments 4 and up are passed using VARARGS.
2014-07-30T04:16:22Z drmeister: By doing this, I can optimize common cases like (FOO x y z) (FOO x y) (FOO x) (FOO x y &optional z) etc.
2014-07-30T04:16:38Z drmeister: The general case though is what I'm working on.
2014-07-30T04:17:16Z drmeister: If you have a function (FOO x)    It will be called as (FOO x NULL NULL)
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2014-07-30T04:17:49Z drmeister: A function like (FOO x y &optional z &rest a &key b c)    is where things get tricky.
2014-07-30T04:18:17Z |3b|: seems like (foo &key a b c) would be the tricky case
2014-07-30T04:18:29Z drmeister: That's another tricky case.
2014-07-30T04:18:35Z drmeister: There are a lot of them.
2014-07-30T04:18:37Z |3b|: rest/keys all in the varargs part is easier than split over both
2014-07-30T04:19:01Z |3b|: have you looked at sbcl's internal &more ?
2014-07-30T04:19:10Z drmeister: No, what is &more?
2014-07-30T04:19:39Z |3b| is failing to find any details on it, but i think is related to that sort of thing
2014-07-30T04:20:01Z drmeister: I was toying with that idea of rest/keys in the varargs part.
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2014-07-30T04:22:28Z drmeister: If I did that then the &rest and &key destructuring would not need to worry about values passed in registers.
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2014-07-30T04:22:53Z |3b|: problem is you don't know which is which at the call site in general
2014-07-30T04:23:10Z drmeister: Hmmm.
2014-07-30T04:23:22Z drmeister: Is that true?
2014-07-30T04:23:23Z |3b|: is (foo :bar baz) keyword arg or just passing a keyword, similarly for (foo 'bar baz)
2014-07-30T04:23:31Z |3b|: or (foo bar baz)
2014-07-30T04:23:37Z drmeister: I guess that is true.
2014-07-30T04:23:41Z drmeister: That kills that idea.
2014-07-30T04:24:19Z drmeister: The call site can't know anything about what the callee does with the arguments - right?
2014-07-30T04:24:35Z |3b|: right, foo might not have been defined yet, or might be redefined
2014-07-30T04:24:55Z |3b|: also consider (funcall foo :bar baz), where you don't even know what foo is
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2014-07-30T04:26:24Z drmeister: Yeah, so the caller can't know anything about the callee - I've learned that now several times.
2014-07-30T04:27:38Z drmeister: Other lisps pass arguments in registers - how do they deal with this?
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2014-07-30T04:44:11Z pjb: drmeister: two choices: 1- build the list needed by the vanilla destructuring-bind, from the registers.
2014-07-30T04:44:19Z Zhivago: The call site can know the callee if they're defined in the same file and compiled.
2014-07-30T04:44:34Z Zhivago: Since such a relationship need not respect redefinition.
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2014-07-30T04:45:01Z pjb: drmeister: 2- play tricks with car/cdr, etc.  in: (lambda (&rest args) (car args) (cdr args)),  (car args) can designate a register.  (cdr args) can designate a set of registers.
2014-07-30T04:45:03Z Zhivago: SBCL has two calling conventions, iirc -- one for informed and one for uninformed callers.
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2014-07-30T04:45:40Z pjb: drmeister: it can require some sophisticated compilation processing, but it should be doable.  Same as register allocation, register spilling, etc.
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2014-07-30T04:46:03Z pjb: drmeister: notice that CLHS explicitely allows CL implementations to play tricks with functions from the CL package.
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2014-07-30T04:48:21Z pjb: drmeister: notice that even with choice 1-, you may build the list not on the heap, but on the stack, if you can prove that it's only of dynamic extent (the parts of the list that are used at least).
2014-07-30T04:49:32Z drmeister: I think I'm trying to implement something like SBCL's "full call" calling convention:   http://www.sbcl.org/sbcl-internals/Full-Calls.html#Full-Calls
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2014-07-30T04:49:51Z pjb: drmeister: you may also choose to pass thru registers, only the mandatory (and perhaps also the optional) arguments, but to always build the list for the &rest (including &key) arguments.
2014-07-30T04:49:52Z drmeister is reading pjb&Zhivago's comments.
2014-07-30T04:50:35Z pjb: (and it's probably a good idea to see what sbcl/cmucl and ccl do).
2014-07-30T04:51:39Z drmeister: pjb: I'm starting with choice #1.   Choice #2 looks a little complicated at this point.
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2014-07-30T04:54:22Z drmeister: From my perspective, there are two lists of values I need to deal with.   One is the arguments passed by the caller to the callee, the second is the bindings that the callee creates from the arguments and the argument lambda list.   I'm trying to get the first list of arguments passed in a combination of registers and values on the stack.  The second one will be on the heap for now until I do more sophisticated es
2014-07-30T04:54:22Z drmeister: cape analysis on the bindings.
2014-07-30T04:55:44Z |3b|: depending on what you do with them you can avoid actually building a list in the callee
2014-07-30T04:56:43Z drmeister: Setting up a call using LLVM is easy.  What is puzzling me at the moment is how do I take the (int nargs, T* regarg0, T* regarg1, T* regarg2,  valist ) and the lambda list and turn that into bindings.
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2014-07-30T04:57:36Z pjb: drmeister: notice that you want also to deal with (apply fun a :k others), where the list is already (partially) built.
2014-07-30T04:57:53Z drmeister: Simple cases are simple - (defun foo (x y z) ...)    (let ((x regarg0) (y regarg1) (z regarg2)) ...)
2014-07-30T04:57:55Z pjb: Would apply pop the arguments from the list to store them in registers?
2014-07-30T04:58:22Z |3b|: well, one easy but wasteful way would be to just always allocate enough space for all the args in the valist, and copy them from regs to the array if the function needs &rest/&key processing
2014-07-30T04:58:49Z pjb: Yes, notice that there's a call-arguments-limit.
2014-07-30T04:59:16Z |3b|: i guess also &optional, since you need to handle defaulting at callee for same reasons as the other stuff
2014-07-30T04:59:37Z pjb: drmeister: CL is a fun language to implement, happy you!
2014-07-30T05:00:33Z |3b|: and you may have that space on the stack anyway in case the register args need spilled for other reasons
2014-07-30T05:02:09Z drmeister: pjb: I've got the code for the caller already written - APPLY is not very efficient at this point but FUNCALL isn't too bad.  https://gist.github.com/drmeister/03ba77231313c526367a
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2014-07-30T05:04:06Z drmeister: This is what applyToActivationFrame looks like:    https://gist.github.com/drmeister/684eb0e371471f8e4d2c
2014-07-30T05:04:59Z drmeister: It's not pretty - I'll admit - but I couldn't come up with any other way to do it from C++.
2014-07-30T05:05:22Z drmeister: The compiler will generate much more efficient versions for compiled Common Lisp code.
2014-07-30T05:05:49Z drmeister: So this stuff will only be necessary for bootstrapping.
2014-07-30T05:07:20Z drmeister: The compiled code - that is another issue.   I need to generate code at the beginning of every function that takes the first three arguments in registers and the rest in a varargs and binds them according to the lambda list of the function.
2014-07-30T05:08:25Z drmeister: pjb: Thanks - yes - I am aware of the call-arguments-limit (thank the CL designers)
2014-07-30T05:10:36Z |3b|: can you have something like a macro (arg N) where N is a compile-time constant >= -3, and expands into either a register for <0 or ref into the varargs part, and a (rest-of-args N) that conses up a list of remaining args? seems like that would be enough to implement the bindings
2014-07-30T05:11:01Z |3b|: could later optimize to avoid consing up the list for &key or some uses of &rest
2014-07-30T05:11:08Z kristof: And I thought Lisp in Small Pieces was a dense read
2014-07-30T05:11:16Z drmeister: |3b| - I feel bad about allocating enough space for the args in the regs and the valist and copy everything to that.   It feels like a step backwards.   If I was sufficiently clever I should be able to figure out how to avoid that.    That's why I'm curious how SBCL handles things - if their callee copies everything to the stack then I wouldn't feel so bad about it.
2014-07-30T05:12:11Z |3b|: from what i understand it does something like what i just said, but that's just vague memory of what i've read on #sbcl and here in the past
2014-07-30T05:13:04Z drmeister: kristof: I thought that Lisp in Small Pieces didn't give enough details - or rather spent too much time on implementing Scheme like call/cc
2014-07-30T05:13:09Z |3b|: caller dumps stuff on the stack, callee grabs it from there and only builds a list if it has to (for example to return or pass to other functions, or if user code does list operations on it)
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2014-07-30T05:35:24Z drmeister: |3b| Thanks - I'm reading your comments in #lisp and #sbcl
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2014-07-30T05:42:09Z drmeister: So to summarize:  my calling convention is (in C)  func(multiple_values* result, T* closed_over_env, int nargs, T* reg_arg0, T* reg_arg1, T* reg_arg2, ... )
2014-07-30T05:43:08Z drmeister: In the general case, the callee will 1) allocate nargs slots on the stack and copy reg_arg0, reg_arg1, reg_arg2, va_list... into those slots and the lambda-list destructuring code will use that to create the bindings.
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2014-07-30T05:45:22Z drmeister: For special cases (x) (x &optional y) (x y) (x y &optional z) (x y z)  the callee will use the registers directly  (as suggested by the "Movitz development platform" paper by Frode V. Fjeld).
2014-07-30T05:47:23Z drmeister: Maybe some day in the future I'll figure out how to eliminate copying the arguments.
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2014-07-30T11:52:35Z Xach feels the excitement
2014-07-30T11:54:09Z dim feels like nap time is coming
2014-07-30T11:57:00Z JuanDaugherty feels like a samba
2014-07-30T11:57:29Z JuanDaugherty de que mixto macaratu
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2014-07-30T12:00:13Z JuanDaugherty: *maracatu
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2014-07-30T12:02:57Z JuanDaugherty: but what is the lispy excitement, new alien technology?
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2014-07-30T12:14:15Z mpsil: the parenthesis
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2014-07-30T12:16:38Z mpsil: their round, sensual curvature, their softness...
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2014-07-30T12:19:40Z JuanDaugherty: better line them bitches up right!
2014-07-30T12:19:59Z JuanDaugherty: in the same damn column
2014-07-30T12:20:14Z JuanDaugherty kids
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2014-07-30T12:34:59Z Xach: mpsil, JuanDaugherty: that is both unnecessary and unwelcome.
2014-07-30T12:35:32Z mpsil: JuanDaugherty comment sure, but mine? that is silly ...
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2014-07-30T12:36:02Z Xach: Yes, yours.
2014-07-30T12:36:09Z JuanDaugherty: Xach, TWAJS
2014-07-30T12:36:53Z Xach: Keep it to yourself next time.
2014-07-30T12:39:12Z JuanDaugherty: so there's sensitivity in the lisp culture about the pile up of end parens, which contradicts practice in other langs?
2014-07-30T12:41:03Z JuanDaugherty: anyway gotta go will get the response from the log
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2014-07-30T12:58:34Z Xach: repo.or.cz is flaking out again :(
2014-07-30T12:59:01Z |3b|: many active projects still hosted there?
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2014-07-30T13:00:55Z Xach: antik, closure-common, closure-html, cl-sane, cl-v4l2, cxml, gsll, xuriella
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2014-07-30T13:07:24Z |3b|: yeah, i guess a few of those are at least actively used if not actively developed
2014-07-30T13:08:20Z Xach: and it's not totally flaky, but a few of those updates failed
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2014-07-30T15:26:29Z alexey: Hi all, I've asked in Google groups, but didn't get an answer there yet: is it possible to pass an argument to a restart from SLIME debugger?
2014-07-30T15:27:35Z Xach: alexey: I saw the question there but didn't answer because I don't know, and I still don't know, but I think the slime list might be a better venue.
2014-07-30T15:27:46Z Xach: than comp.lang.lisp or #lisp
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2014-07-30T15:30:09Z JuanDaugherty: slime is open source
2014-07-30T15:31:09Z H4ns: no really?
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2014-07-30T15:33:22Z JuanDaugherty: so that a) if restart isn't documented they could be inspected, and b) if the queried thing weren't implemented it could be added
2014-07-30T15:34:00Z Guthur`: you can pass the lisp name for one think
2014-07-30T15:34:21Z Guthur`: think/thing
2014-07-30T15:35:30Z Guthur`: I remember using it  when running more than one implementation
2014-07-30T15:36:15Z alexey: My thing is: I have a restart (programmed by me) in my CL code. Once the code reaches the condition, it puts me into debugger. Now I want to invoke my restart.
2014-07-30T15:36:28Z pjb: alexey: IIRC, when you select a restart that takes arguments in slime, the querying is done in the slime repl buffer.
2014-07-30T15:36:33Z alexey: If restart does not use a parameter, simple Enter on it will do
2014-07-30T15:37:19Z alexey: but when I enter on a restart requiring the argument, I get another error: no argument when expected 1
2014-07-30T15:37:26Z Guthur`: oh sorry i completely misread the question
2014-07-30T15:37:39Z Guthur`: ah well, gone sign it's time for bed
2014-07-30T15:38:00Z alexey: cheers
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2014-07-30T15:38:21Z alexey: pjb: that what I thought would happen, but it didn't
2014-07-30T15:38:59Z alexey: NB. I am new to IRC, not sure how to address/quote properly here :)
2014-07-30T15:39:02Z pjb: It does, with slime/ccl
2014-07-30T15:39:11Z pjb: you did right.
2014-07-30T15:39:24Z pjb: Take the example in clhs restart-case
2014-07-30T15:39:27Z pjb: clhs restart-case
2014-07-30T15:39:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_rst_ca.htm
2014-07-30T15:39:29Z alexey: hmm, maybe it's sbcl issue...
2014-07-30T15:40:05Z pjb: Notice that you need to specify an interactive function for those restarts that take arguments.
2014-07-30T15:40:56Z pjb: Those interactive functions could work with the REPL, or with some GUI or some other interaction device.
2014-07-30T15:42:00Z alexey: Oh I see
2014-07-30T15:43:57Z alexey: I didn't specify :interactive argument
2014-07-30T15:44:01Z alexey: Thanks a lot!
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2014-07-30T15:45:23Z alexey: "If a restart is invoked interactively but no :interactive option was supplied, the argument list used in the invocation is the empty list." (HyperSpec) - that was exactly my case
2014-07-30T15:47:02Z Xach: pjb: how could you neglect this question on comp.lang.lisp?
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2014-07-30T15:50:58Z JuanDaugherty: prolly just decided he wanted to here
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2014-07-30T16:04:42Z pjb: Xach: I was lazy.
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2014-07-30T16:12:45Z Xach: pjb: can you follow up with it now that you have been misidentified as "pub"?
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2014-07-30T16:25:03Z gnuser: Hi! Does anyone know how to switch interpreters in slime? (I've installed sbcl, then clisp was replaced automatically in my emacs slime mode)
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2014-07-30T16:26:29Z Xach: gnuser: I set inferior-lisp-program in .emacs. there are several other ways.
2014-07-30T16:26:38Z Xach: You can always use C-u M-x slime for one-off things
2014-07-30T16:26:51Z Xach: See also slime-lisp-implementations
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2014-07-30T16:36:03Z gnuser: Xach: Thank you! "C-u M-x slime" works as I needed it.
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2014-07-30T16:44:44Z Xach: cheers
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2014-07-30T16:55:36Z jasom wishes there were a combination of m-v-b and destructuring-bind
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2014-07-30T16:56:49Z Xach: Have you seen ron garret's BB macro?
2014-07-30T16:56:52Z jasom: esrap returns 2 or 3 values and the presence of the 3rd value matters; it may be that the 3rd value is never null if present, but I'm not certain
2014-07-30T16:56:54Z phadthai: you could create or use a fancy let library with bells and whistles
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2014-07-30T16:57:12Z jasom: phadthai: I've seen metabang-bind
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2014-07-30T16:58:10Z jasom: I read a several hundred message flame war started by ron garret on c.l.l
2014-07-30T16:58:32Z jasom: When you write a message that starts out "I don't want to start a flamewar" it's probably too late
2014-07-30T17:00:30Z Xach: you kind of messed up the structure of the joke :(
2014-07-30T17:00:43Z Xach: "have you seen ron's BB macro" "no" "lucky you!"
2014-07-30T17:00:48Z jasom: ah
2014-07-30T17:00:58Z jasom: I can't find it; i searched under both his names too
2014-07-30T17:01:03Z Xach: it is like iterate and metabang-bind had a baby
2014-07-30T17:01:09Z jasom: yikes
2014-07-30T17:01:42Z jasom: at that point, is it even common lisp anymore?
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2014-07-30T17:02:56Z Xach: I can't seem to find it any more either. It was part of some larger project somewhere.
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2014-07-30T17:03:37Z Xach: oh well!
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2014-07-30T17:04:06Z dim: Xach: I don't have time to properly report it now, but I think I found a QL bug in the most recent pgloader, wherein it depends on ixf (not yet in QL) and ixf depends on ieee-floats, and (ql:quickload :pgloader) is not fetching the ieee-floats system, at least when used from buildapp
2014-07-30T17:04:10Z dlowe: I still feel a series-like is the most useful way to think about iteration
2014-07-30T17:04:19Z dim: you can reproduce with git clone pgloader then make
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2014-07-30T17:04:35Z dim: it might be a glitch in pgloader sources/Makefile of course
2014-07-30T17:04:41Z jasom: dlowe: series-like is okay, but I couldn't figure out how to do nested-iteration type things with it.
2014-07-30T17:05:02Z jasom: IIRC anyway.  I read the series paper about once every 2 years or so, and it seems different every time.
2014-07-30T17:05:07Z dim: will try and report if you're interested into it, but as soon as the next QL release (which would maybe include cl-ixf) then the bug will disappear anyway ;-)
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2014-07-30T17:08:52Z dlowe: jasom: I think conceptually, you make a combination series transducer
2014-07-30T17:09:44Z dlowe: (combination #z(a b c) #z(d e f)) => #z((a d) (a e) (a f) (b d) (b e) (b f) ...)
2014-07-30T17:10:10Z jasom: that makes sense
2014-07-30T17:10:59Z Xach: dim: I'm interested, especially if you can make a simplified case
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2014-07-30T17:29:39Z jcowan: How useful are RASSOC and PAIRLIS?  Do people use them much?
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2014-07-30T17:31:49Z jasom: jcowan: rassoc is useful if you use alists
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2014-07-30T17:32:26Z ggole: pairlis is popular in some languages under the name zip
2014-07-30T17:32:55Z jcowan: Well, sort of.  zip generates lists of lists rather than lists of pairs.  The difference is small, I admit.
2014-07-30T17:33:11Z jasom: pairlis is less useful since you can do (loop for key in keys for datum in data ...)
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2014-07-30T17:33:26Z jasom: or (mapcar (lambda (key data) ...) ...)
2014-07-30T17:34:22Z ggole: Eh? Zip usually produces tuples if the language has them.
2014-07-30T17:34:30Z jasom: though parilis does let you bulk-add to an existing alist which could be useful; I've never done that myself (probably becasue I forget you can do it)
2014-07-30T17:34:45Z jcowan: ggole: Point.
2014-07-30T17:34:52Z jasom: also zip typically has variable arity, right?
2014-07-30T17:35:07Z ggole: When possible, yeah
2014-07-30T17:35:14Z jcowan: Depends on the language.
2014-07-30T17:35:40Z ggole: Statically typed languages (I'm thinking Haskell) often don't support variadic functions
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2014-07-30T17:35:46Z jasom: (defun zip (&rest r) (apply #'mapcar #'list r))
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2014-07-30T17:35:52Z jcowan: I'm trying to figure out why RASSOC and PAIRLIS were omitted from the semi-standard (widely accepted) list library for Scheme.
2014-07-30T17:35:56Z ggole: Usually you have something like zip, zip2, zip3
2014-07-30T17:36:06Z jcowan nods.
2014-07-30T17:36:39Z jcowan: So zip (which is in the library) can simulate pairlis if you aren't too picky, but there is no equivalent of rassoc.
2014-07-30T17:37:21Z jasom: I'm used to reading and writing (mapcar #'list x y z) rather than (zip x y z) so never defined zip in lisp
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2014-07-30T17:37:42Z jasom: jcowan: is there a find that accepts a key?
2014-07-30T17:37:43Z ggole: find with :key #'cdr?
2014-07-30T17:38:24Z jcowan: Yes, there is.
2014-07-30T17:38:27Z jasom: ggole: not quite the same as rassoc differentiates between nil and (foo . nil) but find won't
2014-07-30T17:40:06Z ggole: Ah, right
2014-07-30T17:40:08Z jasom: but now that I think about it rassoc will return nil and so will find in that case
2014-07-30T17:40:13Z jasom: just for different reasons
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2014-07-30T17:41:58Z jasom: ah, here's where they differ: '(() (foo . nil)) and you use find with key #'cdr looking for nil you get the first element, with rassoc you get the second
2014-07-30T17:43:28Z ggole: Hmm, quite the subtle distinction
2014-07-30T17:43:37Z jasom: (rassoc nil '(() (foo . nil))) => (FOO) (find nil '(() (foo . nil)) :key #'cdr) => NIL
2014-07-30T17:43:40Z jcowan: Alists shouldn't contain random ()s, though; they are lists of pairs.
2014-07-30T17:43:58Z jasom: jcowan: all the alist search functions ignore null elements
2014-07-30T17:44:03Z jcowan: Ah, missed that.
2014-07-30T17:44:18Z jasom: jcowan: is that true in the scheme list ibrary you're talking about?  It's an easy test
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2014-07-30T17:44:51Z jasom: (assoc nil '(() (nil . 1))) => (NIL . 1)   ; if it works like common lisp
2014-07-30T17:45:42Z jcowan: Nope, doesn't work.  Also, in Scheme (car '()) and (cdr '()) are errors, not nil.
2014-07-30T17:45:48Z jasom: oh
2014-07-30T17:45:51Z jcowan: So that blows up.
2014-07-30T17:45:59Z jasom: well in that case you're fine, and rassoc is easily implemented in terms of find
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2014-07-30T17:46:33Z jasom: I totally wrote 20 lines of code in scheme once
2014-07-30T17:47:26Z jasom: I need to bone up on my scheme since I'm reading lisp in small pieces, and they use a scheme-ish language for their implementation code, which is getting hard for me to read
2014-07-30T17:48:06Z jasom: (though they demonstrate how to implement both scheme and common lisp control structures)  unwind-protect gets interesting when you have indefinite extent continuations...
2014-07-30T17:49:08Z jcowan: Yes, (find (lambda (element) (equal? key element)) alist)) does the trick (or substitute whatever predicate you want for `equal?`
2014-07-30T17:49:09Z jcowan: )
2014-07-30T17:49:51Z jcowan: Okay
2014-07-30T17:49:57Z jcowan hears noise of proposal being flushed
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2014-07-30T17:53:31Z jcowan: Thanks, all.
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2014-07-30T18:08:15Z pgomes: Hello all,
2014-07-30T18:08:41Z pgomes: What in your opinion is the best LISP to use in an embedded plartform
2014-07-30T18:08:42Z pgomes: ?
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2014-07-30T18:10:37Z nightfly: I don't really think that embedded is where lisp shines
2014-07-30T18:10:53Z |3b|: pgomes: This channel interprets "Lisp" as "Common Lisp", which doesn't really have any good implementations suitable for anything much smaller than an arm device. I think there are some scheme and other variants that work on smaller devices though
2014-07-30T18:11:17Z pgomes: @3b: Sorry , you are correct
2014-07-30T18:13:17Z pgomes: @nightfly: I know that but I wanted to do some experiments with small devices and wanted some ideas on what would be the best way to approach it :P
2014-07-30T18:13:24Z phadthai: pgomes: if your system supports jvm, possibly consider ABCL, otherwise, maybe ECL
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2014-07-30T18:13:47Z pgomes: ok
2014-07-30T18:14:04Z pgomes: ABCL is glued with JVM ?
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2014-07-30T18:14:55Z |3b|: you'd need at least a few MB for either of those, i think. not sure if that fits your definition of "small" or "embedded"
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2014-07-30T18:15:18Z pgomes: true
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2014-07-30T18:15:54Z phadthai: right, and for ECL you'd need POSIX or win32 system
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2014-07-30T18:16:49Z pgomes: Might not be that hard to get a GCC with a POSIX complaint layer for an ARM device
2014-07-30T18:16:54Z pgomes: ECL could be possible
2014-07-30T18:16:57Z pgomes: i think
2014-07-30T18:17:02Z phadthai: yes
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2014-07-30T18:21:57Z |3b|: arm gives you more options, particularly once you get past 100MB or so
2014-07-30T18:22:32Z |3b|: ccl, sbcl, ecl, clisp all run on arm to some extent, and abcl if you have a jvm
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2014-07-30T18:28:24Z jcowan: Chibi Scheme is a nice embedded full Scheme; there are various other Not-Quite-Schemes suitable for embedding.
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2014-07-30T18:31:18Z pgomes: nice
2014-07-30T18:31:29Z pgomes: I will check it out:P
2014-07-30T18:32:25Z JuanDaugherty: we don't put the kibosh on scheme up in here?
2014-07-30T18:32:42Z jcowan tosses JuanDaugherty the cap of death
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2014-07-30T18:33:13Z JuanDaugherty also apologizes for mention of scsh yesterday
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2014-07-30T18:38:38Z |3b|: scheme is off-topic, but for things like this that CL might not cover well, pointing someone towards an appropriate scheme is ok (but much more than that would be better in #scheme)
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2014-07-30T18:39:30Z pgomes: thanks :-)
2014-07-30T18:42:28Z jcowan: #scheme is a nice place too.  :-)
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2014-07-30T19:09:00Z jasom: I find it a bit odd that now that many embedded systems are as powerful as a workstation from c.a. 1990 we don't have embedded lisps
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2014-07-30T19:10:35Z JuanDaugherty: you mean a bunch of em don't you
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2014-07-30T19:10:49Z JuanDaugherty: as commercial offerings
2014-07-30T19:11:06Z JuanDaugherty: *commercial platform offerings
2014-07-30T19:11:10Z jasom: more like even one common lisp implementation targeted for embedded
2014-07-30T19:11:55Z jasom: sbcl wouldn't even fit into core on a 3645
2014-07-30T19:12:08Z JuanDaugherty: you're the one with the cl posix shell?
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2014-07-30T19:12:12Z jaimef: #emacs, because the ops team won't install sbcl...
2014-07-30T19:12:28Z jasom: JuanDaugherty: yeah, though it's still quite a work in progress
2014-07-30T19:12:42Z JuanDaugherty: when do you think others will be able to use?
2014-07-30T19:13:01Z jasom: it started out as a weekend project (and I got a lot done in that weekend) but there are a lot of corner-cases
2014-07-30T19:13:38Z JuanDaugherty: when was that weekend?
2014-07-30T19:14:07Z jasom: a year or two ago, I think?
2014-07-30T19:14:17Z jasom: been busy with other things recently
2014-07-30T19:14:24Z JuanDaugherty: got it
2014-07-30T19:14:27Z jasom: Just got back to it Monday night
2014-07-30T19:14:40Z jasom: I'm ripping out the parsing stuff to get rid of my dependency on internal-behavior of smug
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2014-07-30T19:15:26Z JuanDaugherty: I have a similar issue. Irksome when people don't use syntax directed parsing tools.
2014-07-30T19:15:49Z JuanDaugherty: which in general they don't
2014-07-30T19:15:57Z jasom: well I originally relied on when smug when/when wouldn't backtrack to handle here-documents
2014-07-30T19:16:41Z jasom: I fixed that part a while ago, but now I'm moving to using esrap and eliminating the separate tokenization stage now that I can backtrack during here-documents (which I needed to do anyway in the case of foo <<EOF; someAlias <<EOF
2014-07-30T19:17:08Z jasom: actually I don't think the 2nd here-document was even necessary to mess up my original parser
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2014-07-30T19:18:32Z JuanDaugherty: https://github.com/drewc/smug that smug?
2014-07-30T19:18:37Z jasom: yeah
2014-07-30T19:19:21Z JuanDaugherty: great, you'll get a lot of play/interest when you have something usable
2014-07-30T19:19:34Z JuanDaugherty: *play/interest here
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2014-07-30T19:24:33Z JuanDaugherty: fortunately for my case regular cfg will be fine
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2014-07-30T19:33:14Z JuanDaugherty: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1113648 is the most interesting/quant phrase structure based system known to me
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2014-07-30T19:33:38Z JuanDaugherty: *quaint
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2014-07-30T20:10:15Z dim: hi
2014-07-30T20:10:22Z dim: did the signature of ccl::double-float-from-bits change in 1.9?
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2014-07-30T20:17:33Z dim: -  #+ccl  (ccl::double-float-from-bits (ilogand high #xffffffff) low)
2014-07-30T20:17:33Z dim: +  #+ccl  (ccl::double-float-from-bits high low)
2014-07-30T20:17:55Z dim: can I make that conditional of the version of ccl maybe? how do I check that, I'm not seeing anything from the release notes?
2014-07-30T20:19:10Z Bike: you could do something with lisp-implementation-version, but it'd be ugly
2014-07-30T20:19:55Z Bike: can you not just do the logand anyway?
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2014-07-30T20:22:07Z dim: ccl complains and refuses to compile
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2014-07-30T20:22:26Z dim: Compilation failed: In MAKE-DOUBLE-FLOAT: Type declarations violated in (THE FIXNUM 4294967295) in /Users/dim/dev/pgloader/build/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/qmynd-20140713-git/src/common/utilities.lisp
2014-07-30T20:24:00Z Vivitron`: dim: I am seeing a feature for each minor version of ccl, so if it changed on 1.9 #-ccl-1.9 may work
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2014-07-30T21:33:14Z jasom: So if I do (let ((*foo* *foo*)) ...) then after I exit the dynamic extent of the let, *foo* will have it's original value, right?
2014-07-30T21:33:19Z Xach: yes
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2014-07-30T21:33:41Z jasom wonders why he hasn't seen that before; it's quite useful
2014-07-30T21:34:13Z kristof: Why would that be useful?
2014-07-30T21:34:42Z Xach: kristof: to make it so code in the dynamic scope cannot globally clobber the value, for one.
2014-07-30T21:34:59Z Xach: kristof: that's what's done with *package* and *readtable* during cl:load
2014-07-30T21:35:24Z Xach: cannot globally clobber the binding, that is. if you can mutate the value it's different.
2014-07-30T21:35:57Z kristof: Makes sense.
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2014-07-30T21:46:43Z eudoxia: i came here to ask a question, but then i figured out, and i'll probably turn it into a blog post of some variety
2014-07-30T21:46:47Z eudoxia: that's how great #lisp is
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2014-07-30T21:49:50Z Xach: ok!!
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2014-07-30T21:54:49Z crowed: looking for genera 6 (but 7 would do), anyone know of anyone who might have a copy? it is for fixing a symbolics 3600 machine ..
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2014-07-30T21:57:38Z kristof: That would be an illegal redistribution of a licensed piece of software.
2014-07-30T21:58:18Z kristof: Not that I care. But the fact that it's copyrighted means that it's hard to find, but you knew that :P
2014-07-30T21:58:41Z crowed: no, it wouldn't.  we have a license for it, david schmidt has not been responsive hence the query
2014-07-30T21:59:43Z crowed: the machine is just standing, it is either that or the scrap yard ...
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2014-07-30T22:10:30Z crowed: rather would have the 3600 in order, than having another cray .. we already have 3 .. sighs.
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2014-07-30T22:26:16Z H4ns: crowed: i'll ask someone.
2014-07-30T22:27:47Z crowed: H4ns: that would be more than wonderful, i've poked and prodded and my stick broke :(
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2014-07-30T22:29:02Z H4ns: crowed: i have a faint remembrance that a fb contact of mine used to have a 3600.  i've inquired.
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2014-07-30T22:31:45Z crowed: H4ns: the machine talks chaos, but it has no source files on disk, and it can access the file system on one of our 10/klh machines, so i am hoping that doing a restore from that, or just pointing a logical pathname to it should make it half usable ..
2014-07-30T22:31:57Z p_l: crowed: http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/ <--- this guy might have tapes
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2014-07-30T22:33:07Z p_l: (used to run symbolics-related consulting and service in UK, iirc)
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2014-07-30T22:33:23Z crowed: p_l: thanks, i'll prod!
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2014-07-30T22:34:05Z p_l: crowed: also, if you get tapes, whatever, I urge you to make readable copies into files etc. - you don't have to distribute or upload them, it's more about preservation
2014-07-30T22:35:07Z crowed: p_l: ofcourse! i know that some tapes of 8 are floating about, but i'm more interested about 6 since well, that is what our 3600 is running ..
2014-07-30T22:35:40Z crowed: doubt i could even get the rep loading any of the code, or the world files ... not even gonna bother
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2014-07-30T22:40:25Z crowed: rep being the rep ..
2014-07-30T22:40:28Z crowed: fep ..
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2014-07-31T03:54:31Z P4Titan: Hello all, I am having issues with using the let command. Can there be more than 1 line in the body of a let?
2014-07-31T03:55:00Z didi: P4Titan: You mean form? Yes.
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2014-07-31T03:55:45Z P4Titan: Ok, it must be that I am using the variable wrong since I get an error "Symbols value as variable is void: "
2014-07-31T03:56:37Z P4Titan: I am using elisp by the way
2014-07-31T03:57:02Z didi: P4Titan: Oh. You might want to join #emacs then.
2014-07-31T03:57:18Z P4Titan: ok, ill try there
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2014-07-31T04:02:35Z P4Titan: Ok, so anyone else have ideas about the let issue I am having?
2014-07-31T04:03:36Z heddwch: ,shot P4Titan
2014-07-31T04:03:47Z heddwch: oops, wrong channel
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2014-07-31T09:31:44Z ARM9: so I was thinking about learning something new and functional programming came to mind, any good books/coursework to get started with? preferably available online
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2014-07-31T09:33:13Z antoszka: ARM9: Practical Common Lisp.
2014-07-31T09:33:47Z antoszka: ARM9: But beart in mind that Common Lisp isn't particularly “functional” (in the way that Haskell is).
2014-07-31T09:33:50Z antoszka: bear*
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2014-07-31T09:35:15Z antoszka: Still, you have great enjoyment guaranteed and won't regret if you learn CL and stick around.
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2014-07-31T09:43:03Z joe-w-bimedina: I have alot of C++ methods I'm wrapping that retrieve a value of a Class member, like Mat::type, gets the integer type of a Mat object(matrix). I can just as easily use mem-aref to create my own mat-type function instead of wrapping the method and it would be 4 times as fast to do so. Is there any reason why doing this is not safe?
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2014-07-31T09:47:25Z ARM9: cheers antoszka, read through the introduction and this looks to be an interesting read
2014-07-31T09:47:45Z antoszka: cool
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2014-07-31T10:28:11Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: it is not safe in the sense that if the C++ library sources are changed and recompiled, then your Lisp FFI code possibly will be doing something that's wrong and bad.
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2014-07-31T10:29:14Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: on the other hand, trying to call a C++ method from Lisp FFI is also fraught with failure, since C++ name mangling and calling conventions depend on the compiler, so it would fail depending on the C++ compiler you use to compile your C++ library.
2014-07-31T10:29:21Z pjb: You are DOOMED!
2014-07-31T10:29:24Z pjb: :-)
2014-07-31T10:29:47Z pjb: Now, what you could do, is to write a C wrapper to your C++ library, and call that C wrapper from Lisp FFI.
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2014-07-31T10:30:38Z joe-w-bimedina: Oh, that is what I am doing, thanks for the clarification though, I do appreciated it, now I know NOT to do that:)
2014-07-31T10:30:50Z joe-w-bimedina: I do wrap in C first
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2014-07-31T10:33:52Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: you could make it safer, if you could/would write the lisp code that would check the layout of the structure you want to access from C++.  But this would require loading debugging information from the library (eg. DWARF), but again, this adds a dependency on C++ compiler providing this typing/debugging information.
2014-07-31T10:34:06Z pjb: And it would be a major project compared to just generating a C wrapper.
2014-07-31T10:35:33Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks,
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2014-07-31T10:58:47Z rick-monster: hmm while I've been working on these nanomsg bindings I found a couple of tricky bugs in nanomsg.  Digging in to the C source code to try and understand more reveals the usual mess of boilerplate and repeated patterns.  My immediate thought is - this nanomsg stuff is pretty cool & smart but maybe would be fewer bugs and much less complex if it was lisp all the way down!?
2014-07-31T10:58:52Z rick-monster: With the baffling array of networking & concurrency libraries for CL I'm wondering - has an existing library that just does this stuff just gone under my radar?
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2014-07-31T11:01:03Z pjb: rick-monster: of course.  I'm fully against FFI.  It's the worst possible solution (apart from a $time-in-the-short-term point of view in some cases).
2014-07-31T11:01:17Z pjb: Just rewrite the library in Lisp.
2014-07-31T11:01:46Z pjb: Remember that when converting C/C++/etc code into Lisp, you get a /30 reduction of code size.
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2014-07-31T11:02:16Z pjb: So what may look like a big library of 30,000 C LoC, is actually a tiny 1,000 Lisp LoC utility.
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2014-07-31T11:06:02Z InvalidCo: are there any c/c++ -> lisp -translators yet?
2014-07-31T11:06:43Z InvalidCo: I was thinking it'd be easier to rewrite libraries if you first funneled the code to s-expressions
2014-07-31T11:06:56Z InvalidCo: and then some half-interactive pattern-matching
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2014-07-31T11:12:33Z rick-monster: pjb: not sure I have the chops to achieve a 30x reduction but point taken!  These cffi bindings will probably *have* to be good enough in the short term or they might make me go back to fixing 8-year-old perl bugs...
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2014-07-31T11:20:45Z pjb: InvalidCo: DrMeister works on it.
2014-07-31T11:20:59Z pjb: rick-monster: it's not you, it's lisp!
2014-07-31T11:22:56Z InvalidCo: pjb: cool
2014-07-31T11:23:08Z InvalidCo: is there a repo or something to check out yet_
2014-07-31T11:23:12Z InvalidCo: *?
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2014-07-31T11:34:28Z pjb: InvalidCo: AFAIK, not yet.  Ask drmeister when he's here.
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2014-07-31T11:36:09Z InvalidCo: ok
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2014-07-31T13:50:01Z Hydan: what is the point of alexandrias make-gensym vs. just using gensym?
2014-07-31T13:51:38Z dlowe: make-gensym takes a string designator
2014-07-31T13:52:16Z Xach: That explains the difference but not really the point.
2014-07-31T13:52:54Z dlowe: The point of anything in alexandria is shrouded in mystery
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2014-07-31T13:53:55Z dlowe: My guess is that it exists primarily as a support function for make-gensym-list
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2014-07-31T13:56:42Z oGMo: gensym takes exactly the same argument, optionally :P
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2014-07-31T13:57:47Z Xach: not exactly
2014-07-31T13:57:57Z oGMo: my guess is it's so there's one called MAKE-GENSYM, which doesn't really make sense either, because a "gensym" isn't a thing
2014-07-31T13:59:01Z Xach: The glossary defines it as a thing.
2014-07-31T14:00:12Z oGMo: sortof :p
2014-07-31T14:01:07Z oGMo: in any case, alexandria's with-gensyms is the most useful thing ime
2014-07-31T14:03:48Z Hydan: pardon my ignorance, but I still fail to see what exaclty is the subtle difference between the two.. in actual usage.
2014-07-31T14:04:31Z oGMo: between gensym and make-gensym? there is none besides make-gensym requiring its argument
2014-07-31T14:04:45Z oGMo: the documentation literally says it calls gensym with either valid argument type
2014-07-31T14:05:16Z Xach: There is one other difference. make-gensym takes a string designator.
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2014-07-31T14:05:26Z oGMo: so does gensym
2014-07-31T14:05:43Z Xach: It is not specified to.
2014-07-31T14:07:16Z oGMo: "gensym &optional x .. x---a string or a non-negative integer." from clhs
2014-07-31T14:07:32Z dlowe: a string designator is not a string.
2014-07-31T14:07:47Z oGMo: er, oh right
2014-07-31T14:08:43Z oGMo: so that's a pretty useful difference actually
2014-07-31T14:11:05Z Hydan: so it's basically a portable way to do something like (gensym *string*)?
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2014-07-31T14:11:26Z oGMo: Hydan: no, think (gensym (string THING))
2014-07-31T14:11:36Z Vivitron: Hypothetically (mapcar #'make-gensym list-of-symbols) seems like something I might write. In practice I hadn't noticed gensym didn't take a designator.
2014-07-31T14:11:51Z oGMo: Hydan: look up "string designator" in the glossary
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2014-07-31T14:21:53Z Hydan: now I see. like (gensym 'STRING) => oops vs (make-gensym 'STRING). thanks! I should do more M-.
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2014-07-31T14:30:05Z juanlas: anyone know if the colon operator has a special chaining functionality of some sort, e.g. if I do #f:foo:bar
2014-07-31T14:30:42Z hitecnologys: juanlas: what do you want to achieve with such a construction?
2014-07-31T14:31:52Z rpg: juanlas: Just jumped in here, but I'm not sure what you mean about the colon "operator."
2014-07-31T14:32:02Z juanlas: im looking at a project from github that is using it like the dot operator in OOP languages, here is an example: https://github.com/davazp/jscl/blob/master/src/toplevel.lisp#L296
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2014-07-31T14:32:04Z Fare: juanlas: on Symbolics, triple column lets you change "syntax"
2014-07-31T14:32:04Z Xach: juanlas: there is no colon operator. it's part of symbol syntax.
2014-07-31T14:32:05Z minion: Fare, memo from kristof: It's actually more than a few hacks, but it's entirely doable. You'd have to 1) implement a yielding construct and 2) allow for a way to get "back" to where you were in the procedure. Go does this with stack pointers, but C# and Clojure actually just do state machine transformations, which are accomplishable in Lisp. II imagine that running a task would establish a BLOCK, and if your
2014-07-31T14:32:05Z minion: Fare, memo from kristof: thread parked you would have to RETURN-FROM BLOCK with PARKING-REASON. along with a function pointer to call when UNPARKING-CONDITION is satisfied. Then, you'd have to rewrite a lot of the channel functions to do that kind of yield/set-proc-state, but it's all very realistic. Oh, and async stuff would probably be emulated like Go's netpoller or Erlang's I/O port, which multiplexes I/O
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2014-07-31T14:32:27Z juanlas: sure, not operator per se, just the colon character
2014-07-31T14:32:31Z Xach: juanlas: that is not common lisp
2014-07-31T14:33:06Z Xach: juanlas: on the other hand, the #j is a dispatching read macro that can interpret the following stuff any way it wants.
2014-07-31T14:33:18Z hitecnologys: Xach: it may be possible that somebody wrote a writer macro.
2014-07-31T14:33:30Z Xach: hitecnologys: that is not a thing!
2014-07-31T14:33:30Z hitecnologys: Damn, reader.
2014-07-31T14:33:56Z Xach: juanlas: to understand what #j<whatever> means you have to find the docs or definition for #j. it's not a standard feature.
2014-07-31T14:34:01Z juanlas: i see, thanks Xach
2014-07-31T14:34:04Z Fare: You can also use reader-interception.asd to portably replace the CL reader with one of your own.
2014-07-31T14:34:30Z Fare: or, alternatively, kpreid's E trick.
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2014-07-31T14:35:13Z Fare: i.e. buid a *form*, and compile-file a source file with the single statement #.*form*
2014-07-31T14:36:27Z Fare: you might get slighly better debug information with my reader-interception
2014-07-31T14:37:31Z Fare: kristof: you here?
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2014-07-31T15:20:49Z hitecnologys: Using EVAL is often considered to be a sign of bad code, is that corrent? But are there any cases where using EVAL might be a good idea?
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2014-07-31T15:23:30Z Xach: hitecnologys: there are some cases where it is the only tool for the job
2014-07-31T15:23:47Z Xach: and a lot of cases where inexperience suggests it's the first, best tool for the job
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2014-07-31T15:25:53Z hitecnologys: Xach: can you give any examples of tasks where EVAL is the only way to do the thing right?
2014-07-31T15:27:07Z dlowe: I think you're pretty much always going to want to do COMPILE and then FUNCALL if you have a bit of code that needs evaluation
2014-07-31T15:27:19Z Xach: hitecnologys: a repl
2014-07-31T15:27:43Z Xach: though "only way" is not really the case, it's a normal way
2014-07-31T15:27:50Z hitecnologys: I see.
2014-07-31T15:29:29Z hitecnologys: So, when I need something unknown at compile time to be evaluated at runtime I should better use EVAL. Otherwise, I should think again. Am I correct?
2014-07-31T15:32:34Z Xach: maybe
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2014-07-31T15:35:05Z hitecnologys: I see.
2014-07-31T15:35:27Z hitecnologys: Thanks for help.
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2014-07-31T15:37:00Z Xach: I am really sad not to be able to go to the boston lisp meetup next Thursday :(
2014-07-31T15:41:06Z |3b|: hitecnologys: sometime needing unknown things evaluated is a bad sign
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2014-07-31T15:42:19Z jasom: hitecnologys: I wrote a DSL that compiles to lisp code, then I eval the lisp code.
2014-07-31T15:42:31Z hitecnologys: |3b|: yes, I think it might be a bad sign in many cases.
2014-07-31T15:42:40Z |3b|: and in some of the cases where you do have unknown things, you can't trust them, so you should be doing something other than eval/compile anyway
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2014-07-31T15:43:23Z hitecnologys: jasom: that was actually what I was thinking of when I asked the question: loading some non-Lisp code as if it was Lisp code in runtime.
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2014-07-31T15:43:46Z jasom: hitecnologys: you can do that without using eval though (change the reader and then use LOAD)
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2014-07-31T15:44:32Z jasom: hitecnologys: IIRC that's how https://github.com/vsedach/Vacietis works
2014-07-31T15:44:39Z hitecnologys: jasom: this idea was the reason why I asked, yes.
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2014-07-31T16:03:19Z ioops: hi all
2014-07-31T16:05:28Z Fare: jasom: that works because valid C characters are few and far between.
2014-07-31T16:05:52Z Fare: if your syntax allows for arbitrary unicode characters... you need reader-interception, or kpreid's trick.
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2014-07-31T16:08:21Z ioops: can you please advise which gui library to use , thank you !
2014-07-31T16:08:34Z hitecnologys: ioops: CommonQt.
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2014-07-31T16:08:57Z ioops: hitecnologys: thank you
2014-07-31T16:10:21Z ioops: hitecnologys: why commonQt?
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2014-07-31T16:14:45Z hitecnologys: ioops: because it's more usable than the rest of GUI libraries. It's quite low-level but still better than CL-GTK. There's also Ltk, I've heard it's quite good too.
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2014-07-31T16:29:10Z ioops: hitecnologys: thank you, I will have a look of commonQt
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2014-07-31T17:07:15Z dlowe: Qt bindings always make me feel a bit queasy
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2014-07-31T17:11:00Z nicdev: dlowe: i am starting to work with commonqt, still learning really, can you elaborate on why you feel that way about them?
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2014-07-31T17:15:03Z dlowe: well, Qt is written in C++, but it uses a preprocessor to provide extra features (slots and signals). C++ doesn't have a stable binary interface, so it's not reasonable to make an FFI for any language, so there's another project called Smoke that gives it a C interface.
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2014-07-31T17:15:32Z dlowe: Then on top of _that_, you have your FFI interface and Common Lisp bindings.
2014-07-31T17:16:02Z drmeister: I'm fixing some bugs in my compiler and handling of toplevel forms and now things that were working when I compiled my CL source code are not working.
2014-07-31T17:16:15Z dlowe: So while there's really nothing wrong with all this indirection, I can't help the feeling that if something goes wrong, I will have absolutely no clue as to where.
2014-07-31T17:16:39Z Ralt: Xach: do you know why (ql:quickload 'cgn) throws a "system-not-found" error? (this one: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/tree/master/cgn)
2014-07-31T17:17:43Z drmeister: When compile-file hits a (DEFMETHOD xxx ...) form during compile time, there should be no compile-time side effects from the DEFMETHOD - correct?   That's my reading of Steele's CL The Language page 747
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2014-07-31T17:18:37Z drmeister: My problem is the ECL DEFMETHOD macro that I compile does a lot of processing at compile time that requires a lot of functions that are not defined at compile time:   https://gist.github.com/drmeister/566a3a543c1f8d2dc7f7
2014-07-31T17:18:38Z jasom: drmeister: "defmethod is not required to perform any compile-time side effects.
2014-07-31T17:18:45Z jasom: clhs defmethod
2014-07-31T17:18:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmet.htm
2014-07-31T17:19:55Z jasom: drmeister: note that a lot of implementations actually do have compile-time side effects (e.g. generic function arity checking)
2014-07-31T17:19:59Z drmeister: For instance, on line 15, PARSE-SPECIALIZED-LAMBDA-LIST is called at compile time but it isn't defined at compile time.   I don't know how ECL deals with this.   I started putting EVAL-WHEN (:COMPILE-TOPLEVEL) around the compile time missing functions but I think that's the wrong way to solve this problem.
2014-07-31T17:20:41Z drmeister: jasom: Right - do you have any recommendations on how to fix this problem?
2014-07-31T17:20:45Z jasom: drmeister: presumably, at some point parse-specialized-lambda-list will be defined at compile-time, right?
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2014-07-31T17:21:04Z jasom is guessing p-s-l-l is an internal function for ecl
2014-07-31T17:21:19Z Xach: Ralt: I think because it does not build and it is not included in quicklisp
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2014-07-31T17:21:48Z drmeister: It's a Common Lisp function DEFUN'd higher up in the file but it won't be DEFUN'd at compile time.
2014-07-31T17:21:53Z jasom: hmm
2014-07-31T17:22:07Z Xach: ralt: I don't know when it stopped working or if I reported it to the author, sorry.
2014-07-31T17:22:10Z jasom: don't know then.  Maybe ecl makes defuns available at compile time?
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2014-07-31T17:22:35Z drmeister: If I wrap it in (eval-when (:evaluate #+clasp :compile-toplevel #+clasp :load-toplevel) (defun parse-specialized-lambda-list ...))    - that would be one way to fix this right?
2014-07-31T17:22:37Z Ralt: Xach: downloading the system (the .tar.gz available in the source.txt) manually works fine
2014-07-31T17:23:10Z drmeister: Are defuns allowed to be available at compile time. - I'll look it up.
2014-07-31T17:23:24Z jasom: drmeister: right.  Another way would be to put it in a separate file that is loaded before you compile the file
2014-07-31T17:24:02Z jasom: drmeister: it's also possible it doesn't compile it the first time through
2014-07-31T17:24:27Z Xach: Ralt: http://report.quicklisp.org/cgn/2014-07-31/failtail.txt is what I get
2014-07-31T17:24:43Z jasom: I don't know if defun is permitted to define it at compile time, but I do know that it is permissable to (load) a file without implicit compilation
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2014-07-31T17:25:24Z drmeister: CLTL says about defun:   No required compile-time side effects are associated with defun forms. In particular, defun does not make the function definition available at compile time. An implementation may choose to store information about the function for the purposes of compile-time error checking (such as checking the number of arguments on calls)
2014-07-31T17:25:35Z phadthai: hmm a defun in an eval-when can be available at compile time in the same compile-pass, but otherwise, a macro using a defun in the same file may fail
2014-07-31T17:26:41Z drmeister: Let me check if ecl defines parse-specialized-lambda-list in its C code - maybe there is one and it gets redefined with the CL version that I see at load time.
2014-07-31T17:26:48Z jasom: aha
2014-07-31T17:26:57Z jasom: "If the file is a source file and the implementation chooses to perform implicit compilation, load must recognize top level forms as described in Section 3.2.3.1 (Processing of Top Level Forms) and arrange for each top level form to be executed before beginning implicit compilation of the next. "
2014-07-31T17:27:21Z jasom: even with implicit compilation, each form is compiled separately if you LOAD a source file (rather than a compiled file)
2014-07-31T17:27:48Z jasom: so LOAD should work, even if compile-file doesn't work
2014-07-31T17:28:07Z jasom: and load followed by compile-file will work
2014-07-31T17:28:25Z drmeister: Nope, parse-specialized-lambda-list is not defined in the c code as far as I can tell.
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2014-07-31T17:29:08Z jasom: drmeister: to summarize: if you load the source file before compiling it, then all should work
2014-07-31T17:29:58Z jasom: and I know as part of the build process ecl does load some lisp files before doing any compilation, so perhaps this is one of them?
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2014-07-31T17:31:35Z drmeister: jasom: That may be - I'm not exactly sure what the ECL boot process is.   I came up with a boot process that worked but is not working now because of the problems I'm describing.
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2014-07-31T17:32:17Z drmeister: Hmmm.
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2014-07-31T17:34:40Z drmeister: Loading the source before compiling brings with it some other problems.   Mainly when I loaded the full source before I did so with the :CLOS feature turned on.   That breaks DEFSTRUCT because it is defined in terms of DEFCLASS which isn't loaded yet when the first DEFSTRUCTs get defined.
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2014-07-31T17:35:21Z drmeister: Maybe I can load the source with :CLOS (a *feature*) turned off - then turn it on - then compile-file everything.
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2014-07-31T17:36:38Z drmeister: Bootstrapping is tricky.
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2014-07-31T17:40:05Z drmeister: Loading without :CLOS doesn't get very far (sigh)
2014-07-31T17:42:09Z drmeister: Perhaps it's time to take a close look at the ECL build process.
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2014-07-31T17:43:48Z pjb: jasom: drmeister is an IMPLEMENTER of the CL language!  CLHS doesn't impose the same contraints on him than on us.
2014-07-31T17:44:21Z drmeister: Or keep compiling the source my way and wrap everything that is missing in (eval-when (:execute #+clasp :compile-toplevel #+clasp :load-toplevel) ...)
2014-07-31T17:44:23Z pjb: drmeister: IIRC, ECL used a post-hoc CLOS, where the subset of CL minus CLOS is available before implementing CLOS.
2014-07-31T17:44:36Z drmeister: pjb: Yes, I do that as well.
2014-07-31T17:44:38Z pjb: drmeister: if you changed that, you will need to do whatever you need to do to update the situation.
2014-07-31T17:44:51Z drmeister: The transition from no-clos to clos is what I'm unsure about.
2014-07-31T17:45:00Z pjb: Then if you didn't change it, why have you this problem with defmethod?
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2014-07-31T17:45:28Z pjb: Perhaps indeed you forgot some eval-when…
2014-07-31T17:45:31Z drmeister: pjb: You make it sound like IMPLEMENTERs have special powers. :-)
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2014-07-31T17:46:03Z pjb: But you are allowed to them actually.
2014-07-31T17:47:02Z pjb: For example, while bootstrapping you can have a different definition of defmethod than cl:defmethod.
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2014-07-31T17:47:54Z drmeister: pjb: I'm pretty sure I did change it.    I took the ECL source code and I load it in a different order and with different *feature*'s at different stages of the bootstrapping process.    I did it in an organic way as well.   I don't know _exactly_ what the ECL build process is because it's hard to get in there and figure out exactly what ECL is doing when it is building itself.   It's a pretty bare-bones system when it's bootstrapping.
2014-07-31T17:48:23Z drmeister: You can't print values when ECL is booting because the printer isn't set up.   It segfaults.
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2014-07-31T17:50:37Z drmeister: ECL has a :CLOS *feature* and a dynamic variable *CLOS-BOOTED*  - I don't know when they are activated during the ECL bootstrapping process.   So I came up with my own bootstrapping process that worked when I wasn't handling toplevel forms properly.   Now I think I'm handling toplevel forms properly and my bootstrap process doesn't work anymore.
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2014-07-31T17:52:01Z pjb: You will probably have to wrap some toplevel forms in eval-when…
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2014-07-31T17:56:12Z drmeister: What if I have the compile-file toplevel form handler just not do any compile-time evaluation of the DEFMETHOD macro - would that be too much tinkering with the language?
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2014-07-31T17:57:29Z drmeister: Hmm, that is not how ECL solves this problem.  I don't see anything in their compiler that specifically ignores DEFMETHOD
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2014-07-31T17:59:11Z drmeister: ECL does load the clos code in before it compile-files it.
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2014-07-31T18:20:37Z jasom: drmeister: I think that would break the language; I'm pretty sure you're required to do at least minimal compilation.
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2014-07-31T18:25:41Z pjb: drmeister: there's no tinkering with the language involved when you change your boot or build order, as long as the final result is still conforming.
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2014-07-31T18:28:40Z xyh: hi firends, I have designed a new functional programming language called cicada ::    https://bitbucket.org/cicada-language/cicada
2014-07-31T18:29:04Z dlowe: xyh: you seem to be in the wrong channel.
2014-07-31T18:30:14Z xyh: I just want to do some propagandas
2014-07-31T18:30:53Z Xach: xyh: Rude. Go away.
2014-07-31T18:31:13Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2014-07-31T18:31:56Z xyh: why? I love lisp and it have it's root in lisp
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2014-07-31T18:34:45Z Xach: xyh: This channel is for Common Lisp, not advertising new languages.
2014-07-31T18:35:56Z xyh: Xach: what if I could port my lang to a CL VM ?
2014-07-31T18:37:16Z schjetne: Xach: you could have easily said that in the first place, telling people to go away is pretty rude in itself.
2014-07-31T18:37:31Z schjetne: xyh: I'm sure there are channels and communities dedicated to experimental languages
2014-07-31T18:37:34Z xyh wondering whois Xach, Nazi?
2014-07-31T18:37:49Z xyh: ok then
2014-07-31T18:39:22Z Xach: schjetne: It's in the topic, and it is clear that xyh does not care about the welfare or quality of #lisp, but only for the publicity for his or her project.
2014-07-31T18:39:33Z hitecnologys: xyh: are you mentally ill or what?
2014-07-31T18:39:39Z Xach: I don't have patience for abuse of this channel for selfish reasons like that.
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2014-07-31T18:41:16Z schjetne: hitecnologys: has xyh been disrupting the channel before?
2014-07-31T18:43:03Z hitecnologys: schjetne: nope, but trust me, I'm a professional at diagnosing mental illnesses. He's definitely insane, I can tell that by the foam from his mouth.
2014-07-31T18:47:43Z xyh: well, lisp itself is a good language to implement experimental languages
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2014-07-31T18:48:31Z phadthai: indeed
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2014-07-31T18:52:34Z phadthai: schjetne: my impression was the same as yours, thanks for reminding us about civility
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2014-07-31T18:55:47Z pjb: Damned. I spent 30 seconds trying to clean a fly's foot stain on my LCD, before realizing it was a backquote!    Down with backquote! :-/
2014-07-31T18:57:07Z hitecnologys: pjb: I do this all the time but with dots mostly.
2014-07-31T18:57:52Z pjb: this was a 2 pixel backquote.
2014-07-31T18:58:27Z hitecnologys: What kind of backquote that is?
2014-07-31T18:58:45Z pjb: xyh: indeed, if it was implement in CL as a CL DSL, we might consider it.
2014-07-31T18:59:06Z pjb: A small one like: `
2014-07-31T18:59:15Z phadthai: heh
2014-07-31T18:59:33Z pjb: In a font like Hevetica.
2014-07-31T19:00:37Z xyh: there is a experimental language called shen :: http://www.shenlanguage.org/index.html ,  which is implemented by a CL VM,   and it had designed a new syntax to avoid ` and ' and . and ,  i.e.  `(1 2 ,(+ 1 2))  ==in shen==>  [1 2 (+ 1 2)]
2014-07-31T19:01:11Z hitecnologys: Well, that is unusable.
2014-07-31T19:01:19Z xyh: '(1 . 2)  ==in shen==>  [1 | 2]
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2014-07-31T19:01:48Z pjb: that's ok.  You can write such a reader macro in CL.
2014-07-31T19:01:58Z hitecnologys: xyh: and stop saying this "CL VM" thing. Af far as I know, there's no such thing in specs as "CL VM".
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2014-07-31T19:02:18Z pjb: xyh: what about: [a b c]  What does that mean?  `(a ,b ,@c)
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2014-07-31T19:02:39Z pjb: is (a ,@b c) possible?
2014-07-31T19:02:49Z pjb: (with the [] syntax)
2014-07-31T19:03:27Z xyh: `(a ,b ,@c) ==in shen==> [a (value b) (value c)]
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2014-07-31T19:03:38Z pjb: So ,@ is not possible.
2014-07-31T19:04:23Z pjb: (let ((b '(1 2)) (c '(3 4))) `(comma ,b comma-at ,@c and at the end ,@c)) --> (comma (1 2) comma-at 3 4 and at the end 3 4)
2014-07-31T19:04:27Z hitecnologys: Why do some people tend to turn Lisp into C++? The less the syntactical sugar we have, the more readable code is.
2014-07-31T19:04:42Z xyh: pjb: maybe, I forgot, you can try to read some doc of Shen
2014-07-31T19:04:52Z pjb: Because they have to produce C++ for their cow workers and PHBs.
2014-07-31T19:05:02Z hitecnologys: Bleh.
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2014-07-31T19:10:24Z xyh: hitecnologys: shen is implemented by a CL VM or low-level CL, which is called "Kl" (maybe denotes the kernel of lisp) :: http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/nextlisp(1).htm
2014-07-31T19:11:16Z xyh: I simply understand it as a VM
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2014-07-31T19:12:59Z hitecnologys: xyh: I think we're taking about different Common Lisps here.
2014-07-31T19:13:26Z xyh: hitecnologys: I do not
2014-07-31T19:14:26Z jasom: xyh: shen runs under: CLisp and SBCL, Clojure, Scheme, Ruby, Python, the JVM and Javascript.
2014-07-31T19:14:40Z xyh: yeah
2014-07-31T19:14:40Z jasom: xyh: perhaps you're thinking of Qi which only ran under common lisp?
2014-07-31T19:14:50Z xyh: the root is lisp
2014-07-31T19:15:16Z hitecnologys: xyh: CL I'm taking about is the one defined by ANSI in '94. Its specification doesn't mention any virtual machines.
2014-07-31T19:16:00Z xyh: hitecnologys: so there is no lisp before 1994 ?
2014-07-31T19:16:58Z hitecnologys: xyh: as far as I know, there couldn't be any ANSI Common Lisp before 1994, yes.
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2014-07-31T19:26:14Z hitecnologys: pjb: wait, are you using non-monospacial font for viewing code?
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2014-07-31T20:04:46Z joe-w-bimedina: What Lisp library the equal of  numpy?
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2014-07-31T20:06:52Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: do you want symbolic or numeric?
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2014-07-31T20:08:10Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: for numeric maybe cl-blapack? (I haven't used it myself)
2014-07-31T20:08:45Z joe-w-bimedina: well python opencv uses numpy to make matrices, and they are fast, so I would like to do the same thing, but make sure I have a safe, fast/the best library to do it with
2014-07-31T20:09:24Z joe-w-bimedina: it has to be fast, and known to be good
2014-07-31T20:09:25Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: something based off of lapack is probably your best bet (I would guess that's what numpy uses too).  I found a couple off of cliki
2014-07-31T20:09:50Z joe-w-bimedina: so numpy is a wrapper too?
2014-07-31T20:09:52Z jasom: cl-blapack is one of them.  I'm sure someone in here has actually used the various LAPACK bindings and can make a more informed suggestion
2014-07-31T20:10:51Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: yes it uses BLAS and LAPACK as well
2014-07-31T20:12:46Z joe-w-bimedina: wow, it is so fast I didnt expect a wrapper, so is cl-blapack as good as numpy/better, and would you ever reccomend GSLL for this task?
2014-07-31T20:14:04Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: generally speaking, in python, if it's fast, it's a wrapper.
2014-07-31T20:14:17Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: at least for compute-intensive tasks
2014-07-31T20:15:21Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: gsll looks reasonable too; though it looks like it uses generic functions for array manipulations, which could be slow in some cases for small arrays
2014-07-31T20:16:10Z joe-w-bimedina: Id love to find the one all the real pros turn to, which one would you pick?
2014-07-31T20:16:23Z jasom: I don't use it, so I would wait for someone who does to comment.
2014-07-31T20:16:51Z joe-w-bimedina: Ok thanks, I appreciate you taking the time to help me with that:)
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2014-07-31T20:37:56Z nightshade427: How do i signal a different error from within a handler-case with a case of (t (e) (error 'my-error :custom data)), i get into a loop of death :(
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2014-07-31T20:42:03Z Bike: handler-bind, i think
2014-07-31T20:43:05Z nightshade427: not possible with handler-case? Signaling custom errors I would think would be common, no? :(
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2014-07-31T20:43:16Z nightshade427: Thanks I will try handler-bind
2014-07-31T20:43:18Z nightshade427: ;)
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2014-07-31T20:59:29Z Bike: nightshade427: you can do it with handler-case, but the handlers are still established, i think, so normally you'd signal a different error. catching all conditions is pretty extreme
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2014-07-31T21:03:02Z nightshade427: ya true, I just wanted to wrap any error, so wrap it in custom one of this type so higher up ones can catch it, since I dont care what error happened, just that one did
2014-07-31T21:03:48Z nightshade427: Ill try with handler-bind if not then will limit error types it catches. Thanks ;)
2014-07-31T21:04:20Z phadthai: in such cases you might even consider overriding *debugger-hook* sometimes
2014-07-31T21:04:47Z phadthai: depending on your use case
2014-07-31T21:05:50Z phadthai: I did it to log errors and stack traces in worker threads on a system which should not be interrupted when "user code" breaks
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2014-07-31T21:06:28Z nightshade427: humm ... thats a good idea, thanks
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