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2014-05-01T00:08:29Z names: superjudge Amaan therik palter Krystof foom Hydan gigetoo axion Denommus ahungry_ sellout varjag_ c74d Jubb blakbunnie27 stassats CrazyWoods DGASAU flip214 harish edgar-rft d1323 leo2007 gf3 theos cantstanya ejt yacks sausages Cymew tessier patrickwonders impulse vlnx ``Erik MrWoohoo MightyJoe sirdancealot Mandus qiemem hugod wilfredh teiresias sfa ggherdov_ Kruppe ft nydel WeirdEnthusiast kirin` ThePhoeron matko Khisanth milosn mindCrime_ hzp optikalmouse
2014-05-01T00:08:29Z names: findiggle joga drewc ecraven [SLB] s00pcan yano sandbender1512 loke_ macdice schoppenhauer Borbus ozzloy Xach Tristam wgreenhouse scharan tbarletz theBlackDragon kyl _death cmatei funnel hyoyoung_home Bike The_third_man joast Intensity billstclair oconnore brown` doomlord__ Patzy hlavaty Tenkujin zarul karswell` keen______ GuilOooo ZombieChicken hypno_ rvchangue ampharmex echo[1] heddwch les dfox fe[nl]ix Blkt ivan\ zeroish asedeno dRbiG ktx easye Zag
2014-05-01T00:08:29Z names: sauerkrause smull nullman felideon vim_shim jaimef j_king PuercoPop abeaumont mr-foobar arbscht DarkLinkXXXX Kabaka_ AZTech whartung djinni` __main__ White_Flame TheMoonMaster clop _d3f mathrick_ jackdaniel gingerale crack Munksgaard htmzr benny cods freiksenet finnrobi Tordek nicdev dlowe ec Iceland_jack |3b| bhyde leoc ineiros_ [1]JPeterson mathrick katlogic fnordbert splittist SHODAN ircbrows- dstolfa gz vpm kanru joneshf InvalidCo zbigniew srcerer ski
2014-05-01T00:08:29Z names: _schulte_ wchun gabot dsp_ sshirokov lemoinem farhaven ferada hpd ck_ angavrilov Natch naryl tali713 johanbev emma drdo yroeht2 dim acieroid redline6561 dan64 justinmcp zxq9 TristamWrk z0d nimiux micrypt loke Praise madmalik sigjuice _tca endou mksan shwouchk joshe bjorkintosh pchrist killmaster bege e2xistz Neptu ramus _5kg rtoym faheem_ lupine xtsee stopbit cibs rk[1] __class__ nightshade427 madnificent vert2 Posterdati spacebat junkris aoh daimrod Corey
2014-05-01T00:08:29Z names: jtz Nshag nop0x07bc xristos vhost- jayne sgray10 d4gg4d p_l jasom honkfestival j0ni antoszka luis eagleflo BlastHardcheese mood Ober nitro_idiot eak felipe misv nightfly tkd codeburg Anarch wormphle1m jdoles Fade H4ns quasisane rvirding eee-blt gko mtd kbtr cpt_nemo Guest69942 housel clog rotty froggey musicalchair gensym mikaelj setheus aerique sklr nialo` yauz jsnell_ Zhivago johs p_l|backup cmbntr brandonz sjl Adeon specbot Odin- K1rk abbe sytse Subfusc
2014-05-01T00:08:29Z names: ered minion Colleen guaqua mal_ ConstantineXVI sbryant Mathieu copec galdor brucem eigenlicht alchemis7 zmyrgel fmu peccu3 eMBee devon zymurgy tomaw zz_karupa saarin oGMo pok andyo_ AeroNotix samebchase tvaalen phadthai cross REPLeffect aLmostHumAn yeltzooo
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2014-05-01T00:13:51Z names: ccl-logbot Guest213O3 ianmcorvidae JuanDaugherty ltbarcly DataLinkDroid zacts Sgeo cmack``` wccoder araujo nha_ akbiggs_ McMAGIC--Copy pdurbin eudoxia orivej effy Ethan- sz0 lemonodor rpg seangrove zacharias ahungry cyphase fikusz Gooder yrdz bgs100 mhd_ aeth gluegadget victor_lowther LostDatagram nug700 AntiSpamMeta otwieracz hellome oleo pavelpenev yrk ASau JuanitoJons Karl_Dscc BitPuffin shridhar KCL MoALTz Oddity Vivitron stardiviner bobbysmith007
2014-05-01T00:13:51Z names: superjudge Amaan therik palter Krystof foom Hydan gigetoo axion Denommus ahungry_ sellout varjag_ c74d Jubb blakbunnie27 stassats CrazyWoods DGASAU flip214 harish edgar-rft d1323 leo2007 gf3 theos cantstanya ejt yacks sausages Cymew tessier patrickwonders impulse vlnx ``Erik MrWoohoo MightyJoe sirdancealot Mandus qiemem hugod wilfredh teiresias sfa ggherdov_ Kruppe ft nydel WeirdEnthusiast kirin` ThePhoeron matko Khisanth milosn mindCrime_ hzp
2014-05-01T00:13:51Z names: optikalmouse findiggle joga drewc ecraven [SLB] s00pcan yano sandbender1512 loke_ macdice schoppenhauer Borbus ozzloy Xach Tristam wgreenhouse scharan tbarletz theBlackDragon kyl _death cmatei funnel hyoyoung_home Bike The_third_man joast Intensity billstclair oconnore brown` doomlord__ Patzy hlavaty Tenkujin zarul karswell` keen______ GuilOooo ZombieChicken hypno_ rvchangue ampharmex echo[1] heddwch les dfox fe[nl]ix Blkt ivan\ zeroish asedeno dRbiG ktx
2014-05-01T00:13:51Z names: easye Zag sauerkrause smull nullman felideon vim_shim jaimef j_king PuercoPop abeaumont mr-foobar arbscht DarkLinkXXXX Kabaka_ AZTech whartung djinni` __main__ White_Flame TheMoonMaster clop _d3f mathrick_ jackdaniel gingerale crack Munksgaard htmzr benny cods freiksenet finnrobi Tordek nicdev dlowe ec Iceland_jack |3b| bhyde leoc ineiros_ [1]JPeterson mathrick katlogic fnordbert splittist SHODAN ircbrows- dstolfa gz vpm kanru joneshf InvalidCo zbigniew
2014-05-01T00:13:51Z names: srcerer ski _schulte_ wchun gabot dsp_ sshirokov lemoinem farhaven ferada hpd ck_ angavrilov Natch naryl tali713 johanbev emma drdo yroeht2 dim acieroid redline6561 dan64 justinmcp zxq9 TristamWrk z0d nimiux micrypt loke Praise madmalik sigjuice _tca endou mksan shwouchk joshe bjorkintosh pchrist killmaster bege e2xistz Neptu ramus _5kg rtoym faheem_ lupine xtsee stopbit cibs rk[1] __class__ nightshade427 madnificent vert2 Posterdati spacebat junkris aoh
2014-05-01T00:13:51Z names: daimrod Corey jtz Nshag nop0x07bc xristos vhost- jayne sgray10 d4gg4d p_l jasom honkfestival j0ni antoszka luis eagleflo BlastHardcheese saarin oGMo pok andyo_ AeroNotix samebchase tvaalen phadthai cross REPLeffect aLmostHumAn yeltzooo zz_karupa tomaw zymurgy devon eMBee peccu3 fmu zmyrgel alchemis7 eigenlicht brucem galdor copec Mathieu sbryant ConstantineXVI mal_ guaqua Colleen minion ered mood Ober nitro_idiot eak felipe misv nightfly tkd codeburg
2014-05-01T00:13:51Z names: Anarch wormphle1m jdoles Fade H4ns quasisane rvirding eee-blt gko mtd kbtr cpt_nemo Guest69942 housel clog rotty froggey musicalchair gensym mikaelj setheus aerique sklr nialo` yauz jsnell_ Zhivago johs p_l|backup cmbntr brandonz sjl Adeon specbot Odin- K1rk abbe sytse Subfusc
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2014-05-01T00:19:13Z names: superjudge Amaan therik palter Krystof foom Hydan gigetoo axion Denommus ahungry_ sellout varjag_ c74d Jubb blakbunnie27 stassats CrazyWoods DGASAU flip214 harish edgar-rft d1323 leo2007 gf3 theos cantstanya ejt yacks sausages Cymew tessier patrickwonders impulse vlnx ``Erik MrWoohoo MightyJoe sirdancealot Mandus qiemem hugod wilfredh teiresias sfa ggherdov_ Kruppe ft nydel WeirdEnthusiast kirin` ThePhoeron matko Khisanth milosn mindCrime_ hzp
2014-05-01T00:19:13Z names: optikalmouse findiggle joga drewc ecraven [SLB] s00pcan yano sandbender1512 loke_ macdice schoppenhauer Borbus ozzloy Xach Tristam wgreenhouse scharan tbarletz theBlackDragon kyl _death cmatei funnel hyoyoung_home Bike The_third_man joast Intensity billstclair oconnore brown` doomlord__ Patzy hlavaty Tenkujin zarul karswell` keen______ GuilOooo ZombieChicken hypno_ rvchangue ampharmex echo[1] heddwch les dfox fe[nl]ix Blkt ivan\ zeroish asedeno dRbiG ktx
2014-05-01T00:19:13Z names: easye Zag sauerkrause smull nullman felideon vim_shim jaimef j_king PuercoPop abeaumont mr-foobar arbscht DarkLinkXXXX Kabaka_ AZTech whartung djinni` __main__ White_Flame TheMoonMaster clop _d3f mathrick_ jackdaniel gingerale crack Munksgaard htmzr benny cods freiksenet finnrobi Tordek nicdev dlowe ec Iceland_jack |3b| bhyde leoc ineiros_ [1]JPeterson mathrick katlogic fnordbert splittist SHODAN ircbrows- dstolfa gz vpm kanru joneshf InvalidCo zbigniew
2014-05-01T00:19:13Z names: srcerer ski _schulte_ wchun gabot dsp_ sshirokov lemoinem farhaven ferada hpd ck_ angavrilov Natch naryl tali713 johanbev emma drdo yroeht2 dim acieroid redline6561 dan64 justinmcp zxq9 TristamWrk z0d nimiux micrypt loke Praise madmalik sigjuice _tca endou mksan shwouchk joshe bjorkintosh pchrist killmaster bege e2xistz Neptu ramus _5kg rtoym faheem_ lupine xtsee stopbit cibs Acid-Burn __class__ nightshade427 madnificent vert2 Posterdati spacebat junkris
2014-05-01T00:19:13Z names: aoh daimrod Corey jtz Nshag nop0x07bc xristos vhost- jayne sgray10 d4gg4d p_l jasom honkfestival j0ni antoszka luis eagleflo BlastHardcheese saarin oGMo pok andyo_ AeroNotix samebchase tvaalen phadthai cross REPLeffect aLmostHumAn yeltzooo zz_karupa tomaw zymurgy devon eMBee peccu3 fmu zmyrgel alchemis7 eigenlicht brucem galdor copec Mathieu sbryant ConstantineXVI mal_ guaqua Colleen minion ered Subfusc sytse abbe K1rk Odin- specbot Adeon sjl brandonz
2014-05-01T00:19:13Z names: cmbntr aerique setheus mikaelj gensym musicalchair froggey rotty clog housel Guest69942 mood Ober nitro_idiot eak felipe misv nightfly tkd codeburg Anarch wormphle1m jdoles Fade H4ns quasisane rvirding eee-blt gko mtd kbtr cpt_nemo sklr nialo` yauz jsnell_ Zhivago johs p_l|backup
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2014-05-01T00:20:17Z leo2007: stassats: thanks; I think I plugged the leak.
2014-05-01T00:20:33Z stassats: how?
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2014-05-01T00:26:18Z leo2007: those Copy functions require manual release.
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2014-05-01T00:26:55Z leo2007: so I put a #/autorelease on the nsarray and now no leak is observed.
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2014-05-01T00:27:25Z JuanDaugherty: there's a thing like valgrid for list/sbcl?
2014-05-01T00:27:30Z JuanDaugherty: n
2014-05-01T00:27:40Z stassats: no
2014-05-01T00:28:07Z JuanDaugherty: so leaks are just inferred from room or whatever?
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2014-05-01T00:28:43Z JuanDaugherty: *lisp
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2014-05-01T00:31:25Z JuanDaugherty: i guess you could run sbcl under valgrind
2014-05-01T00:32:16Z stassats: that won't do anything good
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2014-05-01T00:49:39Z names: Krystof foom Hydan gigetoo axion ahungry_ sellout varjag_ c74d Jubb blakbunnie27 stassats CrazyWoods DGASAU flip214 harish edgar-rft d1323 leo2007 gf3 theos cantstanya ejt yacks sausages Cymew tessier patrickwonders vlnx ``Erik MrWoohoo MightyJoe sirdancealot Mandus qiemem hugod wilfredh teiresias sfa ggherdov_ Kruppe ft nydel WeirdEnthusiast kirin` ThePhoeron matko Khisanth milosn mindCrime_ hzp optikalmouse findiggle joga drewc ecraven [SLB] s00pcan yano
2014-05-01T00:49:39Z names: sandbender1512 loke_ macdice schoppenhauer Borbus ozzloy Xach Tristam wgreenhouse scharan tbarletz theBlackDragon kyl _death cmatei funnel hyoyoung_home Bike The_third_man joast Intensity billstclair oconnore brown` doomlord__ Patzy hlavaty Tenkujin zarul karswell` keen______ GuilOooo ZombieChicken hypno_ rvchangue ampharmex echo[1] heddwch les dfox fe[nl]ix Blkt ivan\ zeroish asedeno dRbiG ktx easye Zag sauerkrause smull nullman felideon vim_shim jaimef
2014-05-01T00:49:39Z names: j_king PuercoPop abeaumont mr-foobar arbscht DarkLinkXXXX Kabaka_ AZTech whartung djinni` __main__ White_Flame TheMoonMaster clop _d3f mathrick_ jackdaniel gingerale crack Munksgaard htmzr benny cods freiksenet finnrobi Tordek nicdev dlowe ec Iceland_jack |3b| bhyde leoc ineiros_ [1]JPeterson mathrick katlogic fnordbert splittist SHODAN ircbrows- dstolfa gz vpm kanru joneshf InvalidCo zbigniew srcerer ski _schulte_ wchun gabot dsp_ sshirokov lemoinem
2014-05-01T00:49:39Z names: farhaven ferada hpd ck_ angavrilov Natch naryl tali713 johanbev emma drdo yroeht2 dim acieroid redline6561 dan64 justinmcp zxq9 TristamWrk z0d nimiux micrypt loke Praise madmalik sigjuice _tca endou mksan shwouchk joshe bjorkintosh pchrist killmaster bege e2xistz Neptu ramus _5kg rtoym faheem_ lupine xtsee stopbit cibs rk[1] __class__ nightshade427 madnificent vert2 Posterdati spacebat junkris aoh daimrod Corey jtz Nshag nop0x07bc xristos vhost- jayne
2014-05-01T00:49:39Z names: sgray10 d4gg4d p_l jasom honkfestival j0ni antoszka luis eagleflo BlastHardcheese saarin oGMo pok andyo_ AeroNotix samebchase tvaalen phadthai cross REPLeffect aLmostHumAn yeltzooo zz_karupa tomaw zymurgy devon eMBee peccu3 fmu zmyrgel alchemis7 eigenlicht brucem galdor copec Mathieu sbryant ConstantineXVI mal_ guaqua Colleen minion ered brandonz cmbntr mood Ober nitro_idiot eak felipe misv nightfly tkd codeburg Anarch wormphle1m jdoles Fade H4ns quasisane
2014-05-01T00:49:39Z names: rvirding eee-blt gko mtd kbtr cpt_nemo Guest69942 housel clog rotty froggey musicalchair gensym mikaelj setheus aerique sklr nialo` yauz jsnell_ Zhivago johs p_l|backup sjl Adeon specbot Odin- K1rk abbe sytse Subfusc
2014-05-01T00:52:55Z orivej: This won't help in finding memory leaks, but may it help in debugging memory corruption? I am trying to understand why an OpenAxiom image derived from SBCL fails to compile some lisp under Gentoo sandbox (using LD_PRELOAD and ptrace), and valgrind exibits the same error as the sandbox, but earlier.
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2014-05-01T01:12:56Z leo2007: is there a standard way for directoryp?
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2014-05-01T01:20:36Z stassats: no type and file components
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2014-05-01T01:21:54Z stassats: leo2007: you are confused about rlet and memory, _LSCopyAllApplicationURLs only puts a pointer into the variable allocated by rlet
2014-05-01T01:22:01Z stassats: the data is on the heap
2014-05-01T01:26:22Z leo2007: stassats: thanks for that.
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2014-05-01T02:44:12Z j_king: started: https://github.com/agentultra/butler
2014-05-01T02:44:14Z j_king: it's a kernel for iPython front ends like the nifty notebook
2014-05-01T02:47:25Z j_king: could use some critique... haven't written CL code for public consumption before.
2014-05-01T02:47:53Z p_l: is there LE PPC64 lisp available?
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2014-05-01T02:49:54Z joshe: not a question you hear every day
2014-05-01T02:50:26Z p_l: joshe: well, majority of non-AIX POWER8 hw appears to run in LE mode
2014-05-01T02:50:40Z joshe: indeed
2014-05-01T02:51:10Z joshe: I had heard that was a major barrier to porting virtual pc to the g5, no little-endian mode
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2014-05-01T03:02:30Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-05-01T03:27:47Z quazi: i cant find an approximate string matching module for cl, any recommended ones out there?
2014-05-01T03:28:02Z quazi: im trying to implement something similar to ido-mode
2014-05-01T03:28:03Z quazi: l
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2014-05-01T03:35:18Z quazi: i guess i need to rip off ido mode huh
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2014-05-01T03:50:12Z beach: I could use some help timing a function on different platforms (other than SBCL on x86-64).  I would especially appreciate results on Allegro and LispWorks.  Here are the instructions: http://metamodular.com/instructions.text
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2014-05-01T03:50:33Z beach: It will only take a few minutes of your time.
2014-05-01T03:51:24Z beach: I am writing a paper, so if you give me your full name in your email, I can acknowledge your help in the paper.
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2014-05-01T05:11:05Z beach: pjb: Could you run my timing problem in CCL, please?
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2014-05-01T05:14:59Z pjb: beach: will do.
2014-05-01T05:15:36Z beach: Thanks!
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2014-05-01T05:32:56Z beach: pjb: LispOS update: I am gathering information on writing an OS for PC compatibles.  In particular, I an contemplating how to write system code (device drivers, etc) in Lisp.  The plan would then be to run the LispOS in a virtualizer/emulator such as QEMU.
2014-05-01T05:33:24Z beach: s/an/am/
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2014-05-01T05:37:58Z joga: wasn't movitz something like that?
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2014-05-01T05:56:00Z beach: joga: Movitz runs without any other OS, that's right.
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2014-05-01T05:57:11Z kanru`: Xach: is it possible to get a short description of a system without loading it?
2014-05-01T05:57:34Z beach: joga: But pjb and myself have ideas for an advanced multi-user OS with new methods for sharing objects.
2014-05-01T05:57:56Z joga: beach, ok
2014-05-01T05:59:32Z beach: joga: Check out http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lispos.html if you are interested.
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2014-05-01T06:16:58Z H4ns: orr, channel topic changes now require ops?
2014-05-01T06:17:08Z H4ns: can this be changed back?
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2014-05-01T06:18:28Z Bike: think it was a spam thing
2014-05-01T06:19:02Z H4ns: fair enough, but that seems to be over anyway
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2014-05-01T06:48:32Z p_l: +t was added long ago, I have no idea by whom
2014-05-01T06:48:53Z H4ns: can you remove it, please?
2014-05-01T06:49:02Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
2014-05-01T06:49:40Z p_l has set mode -t
2014-05-01T06:49:46Z H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://paste.lisp.org/new>. |Contact op if you can't speak| New: drakma 1.3.9, cl-launch 4.0.3, cl-ppcre 2.0.7, hunchentoot  1.2.26, flexi-streams 1.0.10
2014-05-01T06:49:49Z H4ns: thanks!
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2014-05-01T06:53:38Z beach: Hmm, I thought my x86-64 Ubuntu GNU/Linux would be able to execute 32-bit binaries, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
2014-05-01T06:55:06Z H4ns: beach: i run 32 bit binaries on 64 bit ec2 instances, but i had to install some support libraries.  did you?
2014-05-01T06:55:24Z beach: No.  I guess that must be the problem.
2014-05-01T06:55:25Z p_l: beach: verify that you have all necessary libs
2014-05-01T06:55:30Z beach: Yeah.
2014-05-01T06:55:46Z p_l: ldd or ldd32 will help if it's something linked directly, only experiments will help if it manually calls linker
2014-05-01T06:56:08Z beach: OK, thanks.
2014-05-01T06:56:28Z Krystof: if it's a recentish ubuntu it will have multiarch
2014-05-01T06:56:28Z p_l: you might also end up with issues due to library search paths sometimes
2014-05-01T06:56:36Z p_l: (GTK was annoying in that)
2014-05-01T06:56:43Z Krystof: so you do things like apt-get install libfoo:i386
2014-05-01T06:57:14Z beach: I see.  Thanks.
2014-05-01T06:57:32Z Krystof: though the details of that currently escape me
2014-05-01T06:57:50Z beach: Maybe I won't need to execute that binary after all.  We'll see.
2014-05-01T06:58:19Z Krystof: :-) that's always the easier solutiong
2014-05-01T06:58:20Z Krystof: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MultiArch
2014-05-01T06:58:44Z beach: I was trying to execute LispWorks personal edition for my performance test above.  But if someone with access to LispWorks would do it for me, that would be much easier :)
2014-05-01T06:59:42Z beach: Krystof: Thanks for the link.  I'll find it in the logs when I need it.
2014-05-01T07:00:49Z beach: So if anyone here has access to a commercial implementation such as Allegro or LispWorks, and if that person would be willing to run a short performance test, please let me know.
2014-05-01T07:01:22Z Krystof: beach: one issue with your benchmark: 1000000000 is not a fixnum on 32-bit platforms
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2014-05-01T07:01:39Z beach: Darn!
2014-05-01T07:01:42Z beach: OK.
2014-05-01T07:01:49Z Krystof: you might be benchmarking bignum arithmetic as well as clos reader dispatch
2014-05-01T07:01:53Z beach: Maybe a nested loop would work.
2014-05-01T07:01:56Z Krystof: yes
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2014-05-01T07:03:43Z Krystof: with a factor of 100 fewer iterations, it took 1.59 seconds on my Beaglebone Black with SBCL/ARM :_)
2014-05-01T07:04:36Z beach: Thanks.
2014-05-01T07:04:42Z beach: I fixed the instructions.
2014-05-01T07:05:21Z beach: Krystof: I might not use that particular data point, because of the relative immaturity of the platform. :)
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2014-05-01T07:06:05Z Bike: wouldn't it be better to ask for the performance test on the allegro mailing list? it doesn't seem popular round here
2014-05-01T07:06:26Z beach: Bike: Yes, I might have to do that.
2014-05-01T07:07:02Z H4ns: i'll post results by email in a minute
2014-05-01T07:07:17Z beach: H4ns: Great!  Thanks.
2014-05-01T07:07:20Z H4ns: ; real time  9.987451 sec (99.95%)
2014-05-01T07:07:29Z H4ns: (on a mbp 2.2 ghz i7
2014-05-01T07:07:30Z H4ns: )
2014-05-01T07:07:48Z beach: What implementation?
2014-05-01T07:08:19Z H4ns: allegro cl 9.0
2014-05-01T07:08:31Z beach: Oh, nice!  What is mbp?
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2014-05-01T07:08:46Z H4ns: macbook pro.  i sent the details by email
2014-05-01T07:08:55Z beach: Excellent!  Thanks!
2014-05-01T07:10:42Z beach: H4ns: Got it!  Thanks again!
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2014-05-01T07:16:58Z hitecnologys: Does anyone have a link to that "Stupid Stock Exchange" thing from February's Berlin Lisp meetup? I've seem to lost it and now can't find it anywhere. Googling didn't help much as I don't remember exact repository name nor its author nickname.
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2014-05-01T07:18:04Z H4ns: stefan kamphausen
2014-05-01T07:18:18Z beach: H4ns: Is that a 64-bit processor/OS/implementation?
2014-05-01T07:18:30Z H4ns: beach: all of the three, yes.
2014-05-01T07:18:35Z beach: Thanks!
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2014-05-01T07:19:27Z hitecnologys: H4ns: found it, thanks.
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2014-05-01T07:21:59Z oleo: maptuple-n
2014-05-01T07:22:09Z oleo: best i found......
2014-05-01T07:23:29Z oleo: ups
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2014-05-01T08:05:06Z beach: Krystof: In a case like my test (function x is called with arguments of a single class), does SBCL still use table lookup, or do you implement the optimization indicated in the paper on PCL?  Also, is there any locking involved?
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2014-05-01T08:05:39Z beach: H4ns: Do you happen to know whether Allegro uses PCL or some other system for generic dispatch?
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2014-05-01T08:10:46Z Bike: http://franz.com/support/documentation/9.0/doc/implementation.htm#clos-and-mop-2 hmmmmm
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2014-05-01T08:11:40Z beach: Bike: Interesting.  Thanks!
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2014-05-01T08:13:51Z beach: Bike: I find it interesting that they do not consider PCL to be an implementation of CLOS.
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2014-05-01T08:15:03Z splittist: beach: You might find this historical note interesting http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/oop/clos/pcl/0.html
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2014-05-01T08:16:08Z beach: splittist: Definitely!  Thanks!
2014-05-01T08:16:42Z JuanDaugherty: beach, because LOOPS not CLOS?
2014-05-01T08:17:26Z Bike: beach: having tried reading the old PCL (probably from the CMU archive there) i'm inclined to agree with them
2014-05-01T08:17:35Z beach: JuanDaugherty: Not sure what you are suggesting.
2014-05-01T08:18:02Z JuanDaugherty: ? indicates a query
2014-05-01T08:18:13Z Bike: no, PCL tried to implement CLOS, not LOOPS
2014-05-01T08:18:20Z JuanDaugherty: and not a rhetorical one in this case
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2014-05-01T08:18:56Z beach: JuanDaugherty: PCL was the initial more-or-less portable implementation of CLOS written by the people who designed CLOS.
2014-05-01T08:19:24Z beach: Bike: Are you saying that old PCL was incomplete in some ways?
2014-05-01T08:19:24Z JuanDaugherty: why wasn't it PCC then?
2014-05-01T08:19:33Z Bike: more or less portable indeed, they were serious about the need for machine jmp
2014-05-01T08:19:42Z Bike: JuanDaugherty: because life is fickle
2014-05-01T08:19:47Z JuanDaugherty: :)
2014-05-01T08:20:03Z Bike: beach: yes. i can see on that linked page that defgeneric didn't support :method, which is more user-visible than i thought
2014-05-01T08:20:21Z beach: Bike: I see.
2014-05-01T08:20:48Z Bike: of course, that makes sense, given that it was an experimental implementation of a protocol they were making up as they went, yeah? :P
2014-05-01T08:20:50Z splittist: It might be interesting to compare the July and September versions there. A work in progress, in any case.
2014-05-01T08:20:54Z JuanDaugherty thought LOOPS was a thing not just a name
2014-05-01T08:21:06Z Bike: JuanDaugherty: it was a thing, the xerox LOOPS object system
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2014-05-01T08:21:53Z Bike: if you want to be more confused, you could remember that the implementation of the 'loop' macro in sbcl and ccl (i think) is called 'xerox loop', but obviously doesn't have shit to do with objects
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2014-05-01T08:23:48Z JuanDaugherty: a lack of certitude is also not the same as confusion
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2014-05-01T08:24:35Z JuanDaugherty: in 2014 it's kina moot AFAIC
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2014-05-01T08:25:39Z splittist: Well, in a few more years, once CL has bedded down, it might be time to start thinking about standardising an extensible LOOP again...
2014-05-01T08:26:45Z JuanDaugherty: anybody know if there's anything more recent like clpvm?
2014-05-01T08:27:14Z JuanDaugherty: (i.e. using pvm/mpi)
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2014-05-01T08:27:52Z JuanDaugherty: i thought CL specs were an endless activity
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2014-05-01T08:28:41Z JuanDaugherty: you know as far as people born in the 20th century are concerned
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2014-05-01T08:44:30Z Krystof: beach: for a one-class reader, we actually implement multiple different possible optimizations
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2014-05-01T08:45:08Z beach: Krystof: Hmm, OK.
2014-05-01T08:45:46Z Krystof: in your test as I ran it, I think it knows that it's a function that's been called with exactly one class
2014-05-01T08:46:01Z beach: Wow, OK.
2014-05-01T08:46:06Z Krystof: so it implements a specialized discriminating function which tests if the argument is of the same class it's already seen
2014-05-01T08:46:15Z beach: I see, yes.
2014-05-01T08:46:18Z Krystof: and if so, runs the cached effective method (which in this case is probably just a fixnum)
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2014-05-01T08:46:45Z beach: Any locking involved?
2014-05-01T08:47:04Z Krystof: in your test as run, not substantial
2014-05-01T08:47:11Z Krystof: probably one lock taken the first time the gf is called
2014-05-01T08:47:28Z beach: Krystof: Thanks.
2014-05-01T08:47:30Z Krystof: there would be locks to take on cache misses, but that only happens once in your test
2014-05-01T08:47:44Z beach: I undrstand.
2014-05-01T08:47:49Z beach: *understand
2014-05-01T08:47:57Z Krystof: you can get some understanding on what SBCL's PCL does by inspecting the generic function (look at the DFUN-STATE slot)
2014-05-01T08:48:16Z Krystof: and also the sbcl internals manual chapter http://www.sbcl.org/sbcl-internals/Discriminating-Functions.html#Discriminating-Functions
2014-05-01T08:49:43Z beach: Great!  Thanks for the hints.  I tried DISASSEMBLE, but it was not easy for me to understand what I was looking at.
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2014-05-01T08:54:40Z Krystof: right, there are usually several layers of closures and indirection and it's hard to chase them unless you already know the answer :)
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2014-05-01T08:58:51Z beach: Sounds accurate, yes.
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2014-05-01T09:04:25Z antonv: how to invoke restart in ABCL repl?
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2014-05-01T09:07:34Z antonv: aha, :cont N
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2014-05-01T09:15:37Z JuanDaugherty: seems odd that hunchentoot talks about not being able to run on port 80 as non-root when every other web server I can think of can
2014-05-01T09:17:27Z mood: They shouldn't be able to. Port 80 is a privileged port, which can normally only be used by root. Nginx and the likes normally start as root, take the port, and then drop down to another user.
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2014-05-01T09:18:59Z JuanDaugherty: guess makes sense given the fact that ht is more of a lisp pkg than a web srvr
2014-05-01T09:20:53Z JuanDaugherty: can't recall how cl-http handled that
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2014-05-01T09:26:11Z H4ns: JuanDaugherty: hu?
2014-05-01T09:26:34Z JuanDaugherty: what is your question?
2014-05-01T09:27:02Z H4ns: JuanDaugherty: if you ignored everything that is connected to unix, low-numbered ports and servers before, then it may be odd to see the hunchentoot documentation talk about it, true.
2014-05-01T09:27:39Z JuanDaugherty: right, to my way of thinking what web servers defacto do should be the norm for what any does
2014-05-01T09:28:00Z JuanDaugherty: but as stated, ht isn't really a "full" web server
2014-05-01T09:28:09Z H4ns: aha
2014-05-01T09:28:40Z H4ns: well, there is nothing that prevents you from packaging a lisp and hunchentoot into a some distribution tarball, run it as root and have a "full" web server.
2014-05-01T09:29:02Z JuanDaugherty: or running behind a real web server
2014-05-01T09:29:13Z H4ns: "real", whatever
2014-05-01T09:30:18Z JuanDaugherty: also I don't doubt the same thing others do in the form he points to in Yaws will work
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2014-05-01T09:47:44Z pjb: JuanDaugherty: for example, as Huron, the Hunchentoot web server: http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=tree&p=public/lep&h=fc9fc5f7fdb9433868c1f5c7f079e43bffd19842&hb=9a00fa5632e63e0edc1f43c1f66cef22cde09091&f=services/huron
2014-05-01T09:48:32Z JuanDaugherty: i c, thx!
2014-05-01T09:49:14Z pjb: After Apache, Comanche, Cherokee, Hiawatha, Mongoose, Wakanda, …
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2014-05-01T09:50:02Z JuanDaugherty: filed that under FP/LISP/PKGS/A-L prolly will never find it :)
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2014-05-01T09:53:58Z beach: pjb: Is your version of CCL 32 or 64 bit?
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2014-05-01T09:56:50Z beach: pjb: If 32, then you probably need the updated instructions with a nested loop so that no bignum arithmetic will be required.
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2014-05-01T12:21:33Z oleo: morning
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2014-05-01T13:00:07Z tomterl: hi - If I wanted to play with GUI building (linux, but OS agnostic is fine), what would be the (quicklisp available) library to use -- cliki is somewhat inconclusive...
2014-05-01T13:00:17Z stassats: commonqt
2014-05-01T13:06:18Z tomterl: stassats: really for playing around with concepts?
2014-05-01T13:06:56Z stassats: i'm not sure i understand that remark
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2014-05-01T13:10:13Z tomterl: stassats: last time I used QT was a couple of years ago professionaly, programming C++; My goal this time isn't so much getting a functional gui, but building one in CL - I hoped a more purely lisp based solution was available
2014-05-01T13:10:59Z stassats: there are some mostly lisp guis, but  nothing to write home about
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2014-05-01T13:13:06Z oleo: tomterl: next to qt is mcclim maybe and ltk
2014-05-01T13:13:27Z stassats: friends don't let friends use mcclim
2014-05-01T13:14:05Z tomterl: ltk looked nice, but unmaintained
2014-05-01T13:14:24Z H4ns: tomterl: what do you mean by "unmaintained"?  does it not work?
2014-05-01T13:14:28Z rszeno: what you mean unmaintained?
2014-05-01T13:14:44Z tomterl: "looked" unmaintained
2014-05-01T13:15:00Z tomterl: :)
2014-05-01T13:15:27Z H4ns: tomterl: the author cares about bugs, but there only so many.  it is not a very pure lisp solution to guis, though.
2014-05-01T13:16:27Z tomterl: I didn't try anything, as I said, cliki has an abundandace of choices, but nothing that suggested itself as 'the way to go' for me -- but I figured asking here could put me in a viable direction
2014-05-01T13:16:31Z stassats: H4ns: have you seen yesterday's discussion about yason:with-output-to-string* not being particularly useful?
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2014-05-01T13:16:43Z H4ns: stassats: no?
2014-05-01T13:17:08Z H4ns: tomterl: there is no "way to go", but only a few opinions.
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2014-05-01T13:17:11Z stassats: it binds *json-output* to a stream, but it's not exported
2014-05-01T13:17:40Z H4ns: stassats: it is meant to be used together with the stream encoding functions (only)
2014-05-01T13:18:07Z H4ns: stassats: the stream encoding functions and the functional serializers don't interact very well, sadly.
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2014-05-01T13:18:22Z H4ns: stassats: i'd say it is badly designed and documented.
2014-05-01T13:18:27Z H4ns: oops, i wrote it myself :D
2014-05-01T13:18:47Z stassats: but (yason:with-output-to-string* () (yason:encode "a" yason::*json-output*))  seems to work
2014-05-01T13:19:21Z H4ns: stassats: sure.  but why bother?  you can use (with-output-to-string (s) (yason:encode "a" s))
2014-05-01T13:19:38Z H4ns: or am i missing something?
2014-05-01T13:19:40Z stassats: that's what i told to whomever was asking
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2014-05-01T13:20:02Z stassats: but, yason:with-output-to-string* is just confusing by its presence
2014-05-01T13:20:28Z H4ns: yes.  it is confusing because it belongs into the streaming encoder package, which is not properly separated from the rest of yason.
2014-05-01T13:20:43Z stassats: couldn't yason::*json-output* be used as the default stream, and bound to *standard-output* by default?
2014-05-01T13:21:10Z stassats: or even, to a synonym stream of *standard-output*
2014-05-01T13:21:19Z H4ns: i'll have a look, hold on.
2014-05-01T13:21:57Z stassats: then (yason:with-output-to-string* () (yason:encode "a")) will automagically work
2014-05-01T13:22:36Z H4ns: the thing is:  the streaming encoder uses a different stream class for its output which takes care of putting the proper punctuation in.
2014-05-01T13:23:23Z H4ns: so it is really only useful and used when stream encoding, but not when calling yason:encode directly, as it might put unwanted punctuation into the output
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2014-05-01T13:23:54Z H4ns: i'm not saying that it won't ever work, but i have not given it enough thought to just make the suggested change.
2014-05-01T13:25:01Z H4ns: the other question that someone had was why (yason:with-output-to-string* () (yason:with-object () (yason:with-object-element ("blah") (yason:encode "a")))) would not work.  maybe your change would just magically make it work, too :)
2014-05-01T13:25:27Z stassats: i see, so the change will also require things like ENCODE to output to the stream differently
2014-05-01T13:25:40Z stassats: maybe fetching the underlying stream, if it's a json-output-stream
2014-05-01T13:25:43Z stassats: does it buffer?
2014-05-01T13:26:17Z H4ns: what do you mean by "it"?
2014-05-01T13:26:22Z stassats: json-output-stream
2014-05-01T13:26:48Z H4ns: no, it just inserts punctuation and indentation.
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2014-05-01T13:27:20Z H4ns: i wanted to have a streaming encoder that could be used for arbitrarily large structures.
2014-05-01T13:27:43Z stassats: so, mixing both may lead to intended results
2014-05-01T13:27:43Z stassats:  
2014-05-01T13:27:53Z H4ns: unintended
2014-05-01T13:27:58Z H4ns: ?
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2014-05-01T13:28:18Z stassats: that's what i said, but json-output-stream ate "un"
2014-05-01T13:28:25Z H4ns: *g*
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2014-05-01T13:28:52Z H4ns: correct.  the documentation is not explicit enough about it, and it does not clearly divide the two operational modes.
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2014-05-01T13:58:43Z Xach: dim: yes
2014-05-01T13:58:52Z Xach: kanru`: via google perhaps
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2014-05-01T14:26:56Z Xach: kanru`: or quickdocs.org
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2014-05-01T15:08:50Z kanru`: Xach: oh, I mean from quicklisp or asdf... hmm
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2014-05-01T15:12:15Z Xach: kanru`: not possible yet
2014-05-01T15:12:40Z Xach: kanru`: there is a description property of a system definition, but it can involve a lot of work to get the definition loaded sometimes.
2014-05-01T15:15:02Z kanru`: Xach: could you pre-process it and ship the description alone with quicklisp? It sems you need to load the system when building a distribution already
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2014-05-01T15:15:56Z kanru` want to bulid a package interface like emacs' `list-packages' for ql
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2014-05-01T15:27:33Z pjb: kanru`: like (quick-list-systems)
2014-05-01T15:27:56Z pjb: kanru`: in (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.tools.quicklisp)
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2014-05-01T15:33:04Z kanru`: pjb: couldn't find this system
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2014-05-01T15:36:52Z kanru`: but I find your source
2014-05-01T15:37:00Z pjb: Good.
2014-05-01T15:37:42Z pjb: kanru`: it's in quicklisp though: com.informatimago-20140316-git
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2014-05-01T15:42:01Z kanru`: M-x list-packages is more interactive, in a GUI sense.. it allows one to mark the system you want to install and/or delete and execute in one go.
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2014-05-01T16:06:39Z pjb: kanru`: You're free to write interactive software in Common Lisp.
2014-05-01T16:09:30Z beach: pjb: Thank you very much for all the tests!
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2014-05-01T16:10:58Z beach: pjb: There are some surprising differences between different SBCLs.  I may ask you about this some time later.
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2014-05-01T16:20:27Z pjb: beach: there are on  different computers, with different processors and systems (and different versions, since they're not all up to date).
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2014-05-01T16:26:44Z Xach: kanru`: i'd like to do something like that.
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2014-05-01T16:26:57Z Xach: kanru`: one issue is inconsistency in description. the quality and style vary very much.
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2014-05-01T16:41:26Z kanru`: Xach: because no one was looking at the descriptions. Probably only quickdocs displays that information.
2014-05-01T16:43:24Z kanru`: Xach: if we make it useful and readily available then it will get better
2014-05-01T16:43:34Z kanru`: I hope ;)
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2014-05-01T16:45:42Z Xach: i'm not so sure
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2014-05-01T17:02:57Z ivan-kanis: I would like to map my backspace key to \#Rubout in Open Genera. I haven't figured out how to do it...
2014-05-01T17:03:29Z j_king: i just hope the ipython kernel I'm working on turns out. it'd be nice to have a share-able graphical dev environment.
2014-05-01T17:03:58Z j_king: the protocol bakes in exceptions but there might be ways to walk around it.
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2014-05-01T17:14:47Z ivan-kanis: Where can I find information about Open Genera beside the online help? Google is very unhelpful...
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2014-05-01T17:26:07Z JuanDaugherty: isn't that long dead?
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2014-05-01T17:29:29Z nyef: It's not dead, it's sleeping!
2014-05-01T17:30:19Z nyef: (Quick, someone hijack this theme towards the Lovecraft mythos before someone else follows up with the obligatory dead-parrot-sketch quotes.)
2014-05-01T17:30:48Z brown`: ivan-kanis: OpenGenera is talking to your X server, right?  I think you just want to use xmodmap.  That is, it's probably an X keyboard input issue.
2014-05-01T17:31:29Z ivan-kanis: brown`: hmm, I could mess with xmodmap but it would screw up xterm
2014-05-01T17:31:59Z ivan-kanis: brown`: it reminds me of the Delete and Backspace key issue
2014-05-01T17:32:21Z ivan-kanis: brown`: in xterm
2014-05-01T17:33:26Z edgar-rft: some Open Genera docs are here: http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/symbolics/
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2014-05-01T17:36:50Z JuanDaugherty: parrots live a loooong time
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2014-05-01T19:11:12Z brown`: ivan-kanis: On a PC keyboard, when you type the big key called "backspace", it should generate ASCII delete, which is equivalent to rubout.
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2014-05-01T19:13:20Z brown`: In your xterm window at a bash shell prompt, typing C-V and then the big "backspace" key should result in ^? appearing on your screen.
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2014-05-01T19:30:31Z Xach: C-v is a pretty old convention
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2014-05-01T19:33:15Z jasom: brown`: I've seen C-h generated in some terminals, I think.
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2014-05-01T19:36:28Z brown`: Yes, but if you are running X, you can use xmodmap to make that key generate delete (127) instead of backspace (8).  It's the right thing to do.  Emacs, for instantce, really wants that key to be delete.  C-H gets you help.
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2014-05-01T19:43:18Z dim: pjb: thanks a lot for the clisp idea: https://github.com/dimitri/kids
2014-05-01T19:43:39Z dim: even if clisp on the RPi crashes randomly, it doesn't happen that often that we couldn't have fun today ;-)
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2014-05-01T19:46:31Z axion: what are my options for a data structure requiring thousands of key value and returning SORTED results as quickly as possible?
2014-05-01T19:47:12Z dim: trees
2014-05-01T19:47:23Z dim: you have so many kind of them
2014-05-01T19:47:30Z axion: such as a btree?
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2014-05-01T19:48:09Z dim: btree, red-black tree, then you have tries, heaps, fibonnaci heaps, and plenty of others
2014-05-01T19:48:23Z dim: what kind of data? strings? complex structures? numbers?
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2014-05-01T19:49:01Z dim: also, you could use PostgreSQL here and just select foo, bar from table order by <whatever here>;, that could be simpler
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2014-05-01T19:49:32Z dim: (and allows to then filter only a part of the data, scale to millions of rows, etc etc)
2014-05-01T19:49:33Z axion: yes i am currently using postgresql, but this is for a real-time trading engine. speed could be improved
2014-05-01T19:49:40Z axion: strings, ints, doubles primarily
2014-05-01T19:50:13Z dim: how many rows are you retrieving now in what timing?
2014-05-01T19:50:18Z dim: what is your goal?
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2014-05-01T19:50:31Z jasom: axion: tries are a good choice; there are a lot of ways to tune them for different data sets
2014-05-01T19:50:33Z dim: you have plenty of optimisation options with PostgreSQL (that's my day job, by the way)
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2014-05-01T19:51:03Z jasom: axion: you will want the nodes to be outside of the GC's domain though, most likely
2014-05-01T19:51:13Z jasom: though millions of rows might be okay
2014-05-01T19:51:21Z dim: it could be that you're missing the proper index for the right query plan, or need to rewrite it a little, or use the COPY streaming API, or something...
2014-05-01T19:51:21Z axion: well i was thinking something more in-memory. as far as i know postgresql doesnt support mysql's memory tables equivalency. most of the overhead is disk based
2014-05-01T19:51:22Z jasom: billions would be more of a GC issue
2014-05-01T19:51:56Z dim: axion: PostgreSQL relies on the OS cache (e.g. linux), the same way as Varnish does
2014-05-01T19:52:26Z dim: I think lots of https://www.varnish-cache.org/trac/wiki/ArchitectNotes applies to the PostgreSQL design
2014-05-01T19:52:38Z axion: i've never heard of varnish. i'll check it out
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2014-05-01T19:53:31Z p_l: dim: ... um, afaik Varnish does the complete opposite from Postgres
2014-05-01T19:53:37Z dim: basically what I mean is that the OS nowadays are very good about optimising disk and ram IO patterns
2014-05-01T19:53:40Z p_l: which works for varnish, because it's a cache
2014-05-01T19:53:41Z jasom: dim: I thoght varnish took the opposite approach; everything in memory, let swap handle it.
2014-05-01T19:53:56Z p_l: dim: Database I/O patterns don't fit mmap()
2014-05-01T19:54:02Z dim: the reason why PostgreSQL doesn't offer in-memory-only tables is that mostly your OS knows better how to handle that
2014-05-01T19:54:06Z p_l: especially not when you need transactional stuff
2014-05-01T19:54:33Z jasom: dim: "very good" is different from "specifically optimized for my use-case" though; sometimes by an order of magnitude or more, if your use-case is highly amenable to specific optimizations
2014-05-01T19:54:34Z p_l: dim: it's been only recently that Postgres even uses mmap() call at all, and it's for IPC
2014-05-01T19:54:43Z dim: jasom: right
2014-05-01T19:55:02Z p_l: Postgres simply wouldn't work with Varnish approach to i/o
2014-05-01T19:55:04Z dim: in the case of axion what I mean to say is that it could be that a very simple optimisation of the queries is all he needs
2014-05-01T19:55:28Z dim: I've worked with 12 to 15ms queries that were to slow, within a day they were running under 3ms, and it was then ok
2014-05-01T19:55:33Z p_l: axion: anyway, start by checking if you can increase PostgreSQL buffers
2014-05-01T19:55:37Z axion: any generic optimizations off the top of your head?
2014-05-01T19:55:48Z p_l: axion: also, learn to use EXPLAIN
2014-05-01T19:55:49Z dim: no need to re-architect the application and learn about btree/tries/heaps just to optimise a query
2014-05-01T19:56:03Z p_l: and ANALYZE, I guess
2014-05-01T19:56:09Z p_l: (which runs the tuning for queries)
2014-05-01T19:56:13Z p_l: but EXPLAIN does a lot
2014-05-01T19:56:14Z dim: axion: log in to #postgresql, you will receive *great* help there about that parts
2014-05-01T19:56:26Z p_l: pgadmin3 got nice interface to EXPLAIN with visualization
2014-05-01T19:56:29Z dim: should you still need to learn complex data structures in lisp, I guess we will still be around ;-)
2014-05-01T19:56:45Z dim: for explain, just use http://explain.depesz.com/
2014-05-01T19:57:05Z axion: great, thank you
2014-05-01T19:57:30Z dim: p_l: about the varnish memory/io architecture, I think I misunderstood the text alltogether then, what I tool from it was "let the OS manage", you're saying there's much more to that
2014-05-01T19:57:33Z axion: i also need to perform operations on all the rows btw
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2014-05-01T19:57:59Z dim: select is kind of quite powerful, chances are you can transform them on the fly within the query
2014-05-01T19:58:25Z axion: such as taking all rows with the same price column, and adding 2 other columns of theirs together, returning the total price and total of the other 2 columns quite frequently
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2014-05-01T19:58:30Z p_l: dim: Varnish is mostly unstructured read I/O of blobs contained in normal files. As such it really fits to simply reuse the same system the filesystem uses
2014-05-01T19:58:31Z dim: then it's down to network trafic (bandwidth and latency) and scaling opportunities (that are often easier in the application servers side of things)
2014-05-01T19:58:34Z axion: all numeric
2014-05-01T19:58:46Z axion: still think sql is the way to go here?
2014-05-01T19:58:57Z axion: i must do these calcs frequently
2014-05-01T19:59:03Z dim: where are the two other columns coming from?
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2014-05-01T19:59:10Z axion: the same row
2014-05-01T19:59:17Z dim: so that's quite easy, ok
2014-05-01T19:59:29Z p_l: axion: remember that SQL operates on sets, not looping over table rows. you can also use local functions, too
2014-05-01T19:59:30Z dim: can you query stale data at all?
2014-05-01T19:59:49Z dim waits until the question is about window functions ;-)
2014-05-01T20:00:07Z axion: p_l: can you explain a bit on that?
2014-05-01T20:01:27Z p_l: axion: a common misconception about SQL databases is "looping over table rows" (sometimes elevated to the use of cursors, which SUCK)
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2014-05-01T20:02:18Z dim: cursors have their use, certainly implementing a WHERE clause isn't one
2014-05-01T20:02:25Z p_l: instead, remember that you operate on whole sets
2014-05-01T20:02:36Z p_l: dim: Even then, cursors should be mostly avoided
2014-05-01T20:02:49Z p_l: Or you get an usability plan that involves "reboot the cluster every few days"
2014-05-01T20:02:57Z dim: refcursors can allow returning several independant resultsets
2014-05-01T20:03:08Z dim: or allow to keep the resultset in memory server side
2014-05-01T20:03:17Z dim: sometimes it's useful to implement complex UPDATE schemes
2014-05-01T20:03:27Z dim: so I would say cursors are an advanced topic
2014-05-01T20:03:33Z axion: i have been dealing with databases for years, but dont dive too deep into the details. lately i've just been using pomo dao
2014-05-01T20:03:36Z p_l: dim: temporary tables in in-memory tablespace can work for several of those as well
2014-05-01T20:03:47Z dim: that's true
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2014-05-01T20:04:10Z dim: dao are great when they don't mislead you into not doing SQL anymore
2014-05-01T20:04:11Z p_l: dim: but I guess that might depend on fully transactional DDL, which is less common
2014-05-01T20:05:23Z dim: pomo dao is very good, just remember that the object you care about is whatever the current query returns, it's very seldom a relation defined in your database model, that's only when you implement very basic CRUD
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2014-05-01T20:05:52Z axion: right
2014-05-01T20:06:16Z axion: i dislike certain things about dao, though
2014-05-01T20:06:42Z dim: I've been using it as a query-result-to-clos helper only
2014-05-01T20:06:57Z dim: implementing the smarts in the SQL
2014-05-01T20:07:01Z axion: such as when you just want to SELECT-DAO, but with a ORDER-BY or LIMIT, you essentially have to use QUERY anyway
2014-05-01T20:08:00Z dim: yeah, use (pomo:query "sql here" (:dao object :single)) or something
2014-05-01T20:08:32Z dim: select-dao IIRC is only useful for basic CRUD
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2014-05-01T20:09:04Z axion: query-dao 'table (order-by (select ...)) isnt that ideal
2014-05-01T20:09:14Z axion: little redundant
2014-05-01T20:09:23Z p_l: trying to fit resultsets into classes is quite counterproductive
2014-05-01T20:09:23Z axion: maybe i havent fully explored the options
2014-05-01T20:09:30Z dim: oh I still write my SQL myself, not using s-sql yet
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2014-05-01T20:09:42Z p_l: I think only DataMapper in Ruby managed to do it right, from the stuff I used so far
2014-05-01T20:09:48Z dim: I'm yet to write interesting apps where the SQL must be generated by the app
2014-05-01T20:09:57Z dim: it's been all static up to now
2014-05-01T20:10:31Z dim: p_l: I just define CLOS classes that maps resultsets when I want to use clos accessors and stuff on the result
2014-05-01T20:10:55Z dim: then in those cases I usually find it a good idea to define the query as a PL/SQL or PL/pgSQL function
2014-05-01T20:11:09Z dim: and then it's all about maintaining an API
2014-05-01T20:11:27Z p_l: yeah
2014-05-01T20:12:30Z dim: is there a walk-directory like facility in uiop?
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2014-05-01T20:13:00Z axion: i will admit, i used to use my own in-memory databases, albeit on a smaller scale, until pomo made my life easier a year ago
2014-05-01T20:13:14Z axion: pomo has requainted myself with sql after some time
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2014-05-01T20:14:18Z p_l: axion: remember that a jury-rigged database might not have certain stability or data safety related features :)
2014-05-01T20:14:48Z axion: agreed and know all too well
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2014-05-01T20:17:22Z axion: the related pcl chapter was a nice learning experience and very verbose though
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2014-05-01T20:17:33Z dim: what about manardb tho, it looked interesting to me?
2014-05-01T20:18:57Z axion: idk, i skipped it due to not being maintained
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2014-05-01T20:22:16Z dim: oh ok
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2014-05-01T20:28:58Z jasom: is manrdb not maintained?  It just got a shout-out from an article linked on HN too...
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2014-05-01T20:31:40Z jasom wonders if MSI is using it at all
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2014-05-01T20:33:25Z dim: I'm forcing myself to use uiop pathnames and os facilities now, just because, and I find it way better than what I'm used to report here
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2014-05-01T20:34:52Z jasom: Thanks to Faré for splitting that out after realizing that ASDF had to solve a lot of problems that other programs need to solve too.
2014-05-01T20:35:22Z jasom: (or perhaps it was just so he could use it in xcvb; either way it's a huge boon to doing OSish stuff portably)
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2014-05-01T20:39:38Z nicdev saw a post about manaradb on reddit also
2014-05-01T20:41:42Z dim: switching from iolib to uiop isn't that bad, actually
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2014-05-01T20:43:03Z jasom: dim: I still need iolib for certain things (like building unix pipelines).
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2014-05-01T20:44:18Z dim: yeah I'm not going fancy here, and failed to build iolib on wheezy with the given SBCL (1.0.57), and for *this* project it's important enough that it runs as-is on about bare debian
2014-05-01T20:45:20Z dim: no make-symlink in uiop, run-program ln -s I guess it is
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2014-05-01T20:45:37Z jasom considered writing a script to generate a single .c file from libfixposix.  Then you could easilly include it with asdf
2014-05-01T20:45:56Z dim: the way they do it with SQLite or abouts then?
2014-05-01T20:46:15Z jasom: nevermind, lfp uses a configure script
2014-05-01T20:46:38Z jasom: autoconf, the enemy of simple build processes
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2014-05-01T20:48:51Z axion: jasom: my google suggest last commit was 5 years ago, unless i'm looking at the wrong one
2014-05-01T20:49:10Z jasom: axion: both the github, and the git repo linked from the MSI page say the same
2014-05-01T20:49:50Z jasom: axion: but it might still be maintained.
2014-05-01T20:50:10Z jasom: It's also possible that nobody has reported any bugs or needed any new features in 5 years
2014-05-01T20:50:33Z jasom: particularly if the only user is MSI and they use it only in something that hasn't changed significantly in 5 years
2014-05-01T20:50:53Z axion: right hehe
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2014-05-01T21:00:44Z dim: should we commit a message every couple of months on project we still consider we are maintaining but where nothing did happen, ala -- MARK?
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2014-05-01T21:04:30Z nicdev: someone mentioned this fork https://github.com/danlentz/manardb which looks like it was updated more recently
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2014-05-01T21:40:45Z dim: btw if you want a nice story to tell about CL in 2014, I've received a couple of emails asking me why-o-why pgloader v3 is so much faster than pgloader v2 (was python then) ;-)
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2014-05-01T22:24:12Z jasom: dim: nice; I did a straight port of some PDF parsing stuff to CL (since I didn't want to figure out how to deliver standalone windows applications based off of python) and got a 2x speedup just of the parsing, even more once you talk about doing text-layout stuff on top of that.
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2014-05-02T01:42:40Z ahungry: hi all, how do I avoid interfering with other standard readtable syntax if I want to do a (set-macro-character #\|, do I need to do a (setq *custom-readtable* (copy-readtable nil)) and define it in that one somehow?
2014-05-02T01:48:05Z Bike: named-readtables is the thing i think
2014-05-02T01:48:44Z ahungry: thanks Bike
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2014-05-02T02:18:33Z loke: dim: Did they ask you "why" because they somehow prefered it to be slow, and made out of python?
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2014-05-02T02:32:36Z ahungry: Hmm probably looking over something obvious, using the examples listed on http://common-lisp.net/project/named-readtables/#what_are_named-readtables?, but when using
2014-05-02T02:32:48Z ahungry: (defreadtable glyphs:syntax
2014-05-02T02:32:58Z ahungry: I get a syntax is an undefined symbol
2014-05-02T02:33:27Z ahungry: do I have to define the symbol before doing the call on it
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2014-05-02T02:35:34Z ahungry: ah adding to the export in my defpackage fixed
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2014-05-02T02:53:21Z quazimodo: I'm confused, if we want a writer method like (setf (some-class some-slot) value) then why is it defined like (defmethod (setf some-slot) (value object) (setf (slot-value object some-slot) value)) ?
2014-05-02T02:53:54Z quazimodo: specifically, the order of these arges (defmethod (setf some-slot) (value object) <-
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2014-05-02T02:55:30Z quazimodo: so... esoteric, unintuitive
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2014-05-02T02:56:43Z Bike: what's unintuitive about it
2014-05-02T02:57:09Z Bike: also, it lets you do things like (defwhatever (setf whatever) (new-value foo bar &rest baz) ...)
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2014-05-02T02:59:23Z quazimodo: Bike: the order that it's in, but I suppose I'm looking at it wrongly. Perhaps it would have made more sense to me if there was a function like defsetf or defsetfm and it specified the value first. It didn't click that doing (defun or defmethod (setf whatever) changes the behavior so much
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2014-05-02T03:00:35Z Bike: defsetf actually has its "store variables" in an entirely different list, syntactically, which is obviously impossible for defun and defmethod
2014-05-02T03:01:26Z Bike: it doesn't really 'change any behavior', though yes i can see how you'd be confused by the order of arguments-to-place and the new value switching, since (setf (foo ...) ...) is obviously not a function call to begin with
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2014-05-02T03:04:16Z quazimodo: so i guess my next question is (bear in mind my total noobiness), can we (defmethod (setf whatever) (val etc) :after ?
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2014-05-02T03:05:09Z Bike: if the generic has an appropriate method combination, yes. (if it's an :accessor or :writer from defclass, this is the case)
2014-05-02T03:05:28Z Bike: well except that the :after goes before the lambda list, doesn't it
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2014-05-02T03:10:10Z quazimodo: Bike: <- learning
2014-05-02T03:11:38Z quazimodo: orite :D
2014-05-02T03:12:08Z quazimodo: I suppose now I need to figure out if it's even a good idea to place an after hook on a setf of a slot.
2014-05-02T03:12:31Z quazimodo: It's probably unexpected behaviour isnt it
2014-05-02T03:12:55Z drmeister: C++ stl::map's are giving my garbage collector trouble.
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2014-05-02T03:13:22Z drmeister: I'm ripping them out and replacing them all with hash tables.   I understand hash tables.
2014-05-02T03:13:53Z Bike: quazimodo: should be totally legal and workable. may be stylistic objections
2014-05-02T03:15:42Z quazimodo: Bike: yeah I think I'll leave accessors be, instead define methods on the object that implement any sort of logic other than accessing
2014-05-02T03:16:06Z quazimodo: It's hard to think in terms of generics, so used to messaging
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2014-05-02T03:38:04Z loke: quazimodo: You can define the generic methods first, before you even think of about the underlying classes
2014-05-02T03:41:36Z ahungry: Hmm, for my glyphs package I'm working on (https://github.com/ahungry/glyphs) which syntax is nicer, moving it to use named-readtables to avoid clobbering the common readtable
2014-05-02T03:41:40Z ahungry: previously i was using
2014-05-02T03:42:05Z ahungry: (ƒ blub ["(dog|cat)"] → {"animal"}), would then give the ability to say (blub "I love dogs") => "I love animals"
2014-05-02T03:42:16Z ahungry: actually not previously, currently with named-readtables
2014-05-02T03:42:19Z ahungry: previously I had it with
2014-05-02T03:42:29Z ahungry: (ƒ blub2 ~"(dog|cat)"~ → |"animal"|)
2014-05-02T03:42:53Z Bike: no λ? for shame
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2014-05-02T03:44:25Z ahungry: thats for lambda, the f is for function :)
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2014-05-02T03:55:59Z quazimodo: loke: yeah I just find myself lost in how general (generic) it all is, especially when it comes to arguments
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2014-05-02T04:08:11Z quazimodo: anyone here run cl-charms in emacs?
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2014-05-02T04:09:08Z loke: quazimodo: Have you looked at the MOP yet?
2014-05-02T04:09:17Z loke: what is cl-charms?
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2014-05-02T04:10:04Z quazimodo: ncurses bindings for CL, problem is that I can't really execute my code in emacs slime repl
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2014-05-02T04:11:59Z knoch: hey lisp dudes, what do yall recommend for learning lisp, sicp or something else?
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2014-05-02T04:13:01Z loke: knob: PCL
2014-05-02T04:13:09Z pillton: knoch: Practical Common Lisp, a nice chair, some good music and a nice bottle of scotch.
2014-05-02T04:13:09Z knob: PCL!
2014-05-02T04:13:14Z loke: knob: What langages do you know now?
2014-05-02T04:13:27Z loke: I mean knoch
2014-05-02T04:13:31Z loke: Sorry about that knob
2014-05-02T04:13:37Z knoch: haha
2014-05-02T04:13:38Z knob: Haha I know.... sorry =)  couldn't resist
2014-05-02T04:13:42Z knoch: mostly c
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2014-05-02T04:13:55Z loke: knoch: Then PCL should be good for you
2014-05-02T04:14:33Z knoch: alright i'll check it out
2014-05-02T04:14:35Z loke: knoch: The only issue I have with PCL is that it was written before Quicklisp was released, which means it doesn't mention it. Quicklisp is probably the most important tool you need, apart from the Lisp environment itself
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2014-05-02T04:15:29Z knoch: ok cool, hadn't heard of quicklisp
2014-05-02T04:15:46Z loke: http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
2014-05-02T04:15:47Z pillton: loke: I wonder if Peter would write a second edition?
2014-05-02T04:15:55Z loke: pillton: I wish he would
2014-05-02T04:16:05Z quazimodo: knoch: yeah quicklisp for packages (dont use asdf), slime mode in emacs and practical common lisp
2014-05-02T04:16:32Z loke: At least a revised edition that goes into more details on how to use Quicklisp and SLIME, as well as some explanations how to set up a useful environment on Linux and Widnows
2014-05-02T04:16:55Z loke: Perhaps an addendum to PCL. THe book itself is good enough :-)
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2014-05-02T04:17:57Z knoch: I've only really poked around with scheme
2014-05-02T04:18:12Z knoch: Any particular reason yall prefer clisp?
2014-05-02T04:18:14Z loke: Common Lisp is a much more pragmatic language.
2014-05-02T04:18:44Z loke: knoch: I don't prefer clisp. Clisp is a specific implementation of Common Lisp. There are a lot of them. My own personal favourite is SBCL
2014-05-02T04:19:06Z loke: Now, I have to go to luch. I'll be back in an hour or so. I'll be happy to assist then, unless other people answer all your questions.
2014-05-02T04:19:30Z knoch: cool, much appreciated
2014-05-02T04:20:29Z quazimodo: loke: looking at mop
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2014-05-02T04:21:53Z quazimodo: how do I access the integer that (floor ...) returns?
2014-05-02T04:22:12Z quazimodo: (floor 2/3) returs 0, 2/3 but I've no idea how to get at the 0 :/
2014-05-02T04:22:39Z pillton: (multiple-value-bind (a b) (floor 2/3) (print (list a b)))
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2014-05-02T04:22:57Z quazimodo: pillton: that's the most direct way??
2014-05-02T04:23:14Z pillton: (let ((A (floor 2/3))) a)
2014-05-02T04:23:49Z nialo: (you just get the first return value of things by default, you don't need to do anything special)
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2014-05-02T04:47:49Z ampharmex: <[BNC]ampharmex> given 7 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 5 6 7 3 4 2 4 5 8 7 = 476 Goal: find out what mathematical operators (minus, multiply, divide, add) satisfy that solution (476)
2014-05-02T04:47:57Z ampharmex: <[BNC]ampharmex> Order of operation is variable.
2014-05-02T04:48:11Z ampharmex: http://pastebin.com/qLxn1Nt9
2014-05-02T04:48:27Z ampharmex: How would one go about a dynamic programming approach to this problem in lisp?
2014-05-02T04:48:46Z ampharmex: This is example output: http://pastebin.com/b48asy7r
2014-05-02T04:49:16Z ampharmex: Also note the code is the usual dynamic programming solution, with a range of [-500, 1000].
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2014-05-02T05:10:27Z pjb: quazimodo: have your code run a xterm where you can use ncurses.
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2014-05-02T05:15:28Z ahungry: arrggghhh, giong nuts here
2014-05-02T05:15:30Z ahungry: USE-PACKAGE #<PACKAGE "GLYPHS"> causes name-conflicts in
2014-05-02T05:15:33Z ahungry: #<PACKAGE "COMMON-LISP-USER"> between the following symbols:                                                                    GLYPHS:ΛΛ, COMMON-LISP-USER::ΛΛ
2014-05-02T05:16:00Z ahungry: i have a macro in glyphs, (defmacro λλ ...
2014-05-02T05:16:05Z H4ns: ahungry: create your own package instead of messing around in cl-user
2014-05-02T05:16:08Z ahungry: and I :export λλ
2014-05-02T05:16:17Z H4ns: ahungry: cl-user is for people who do not want to use packages.
2014-05-02T05:16:21Z ahungry: yea, I have it set up with the quicklisp install set up
2014-05-02T05:16:35Z ahungry: but this is wth a (ql:quickload :glyphs) and then a (use-package :glyphs)
2014-05-02T05:16:36Z ampharmex: Anyone?
2014-05-02T05:16:48Z pjb: :export "λλ"
2014-05-02T05:16:53Z pjb: or even: :export "ΛΛ"
2014-05-02T05:16:57Z ahungry: http://github.com/ahungry/glyphs
2014-05-02T05:16:59Z H4ns: ampharmex: do you have a lisp question?
2014-05-02T05:17:15Z pjb: or if you insist: :export #:λλ
2014-05-02T05:17:23Z ampharmex: <ampharmex> <[BNC]ampharmex> given 7 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 5 6 7 3 4 2 4 5 8 7 = 476 Goal: find out what mathematical operators (minus, multiply, divide, add) satisfy that solution (476)
2014-05-02T05:17:23Z ampharmex: <ampharmex> <[BNC]ampharmex> Order of operation is variable.
2014-05-02T05:17:23Z ampharmex: <ampharmex> http://pastebin.com/qLxn1Nt9
2014-05-02T05:17:23Z ampharmex: <ampharmex> How would one go about a dynamic programming approach to this problem in lisp?
2014-05-02T05:17:23Z ampharmex: <ampharmex> This is example output: http://pastebin.com/b48asy7r
2014-05-02T05:17:24Z ampharmex: <ampharmex> Also note the code is the usual dynamic programming solution, with a range of [-500, 1000].
2014-05-02T05:17:43Z H4ns: ampharmex: i read that.  now, do you have a lisp question?
2014-05-02T05:17:46Z pjb: H4ns: the lisp question is: please implement this is Common Lisp.
2014-05-02T05:17:54Z H4ns: pjb: ahh!
2014-05-02T05:17:58Z ampharmex: Yes.
2014-05-02T05:18:06Z ahungry: this wasn't ever an issue when using the global read table, only the named-readtables are giving me trouble
2014-05-02T05:18:24Z pjb: ahungry: using symbols in export lists is ALWAYS an issue!
2014-05-02T05:18:28Z ahungry: maybe its because i'm attempting to set the (in-readtable glyphs:syntax) inside a defmacro
2014-05-02T05:18:44Z ampharmex: H4ns, I have written a solution in Haskell. Just curious to see a lisp implementation.
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2014-05-02T05:19:05Z H4ns: ampharmex: write one.  if you have lisp questions, feel free to ask.
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2014-05-02T05:25:07Z ahungry: does a defreadtable always need to be wrapped in an eval-when?  if I have my (defreadtable ...) and then after its defined, an (in-readtable that:table) i get a does not exist error
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2014-05-02T05:30:17Z pjb: If you want to use it in the same file, probably yes.
2014-05-02T05:30:55Z pjb: Notably at compilation time…  At compilation time, the compiler avoid executing things!
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2014-05-02T05:32:47Z quazimodo: hey pjb if you wanted to use an external library that can't really be run from inside emacs (such as the one i'm using now, ncurses), how would you go about developing? I'm having lots of trouble with stack tracing and exceptions, debugging etc since I have to execute in a terminal
2014-05-02T05:33:10Z pjb: quazimodo: see http://paste.lisp.org/+31UK
2014-05-02T05:33:28Z quazimodo: side question, how'd you find that so fast??
2014-05-02T05:33:46Z quazimodo: oh.
2014-05-02T05:33:50Z pjb: I already had that programmed seven years ago!
2014-05-02T05:34:00Z pjb: I just took the time to extract it as an example.
2014-05-02T05:34:17Z pjb: Now the trick is to hook ncurses to the xterm-io stream.
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2014-05-02T05:35:16Z pjb: quazimodo: an alternative (more general solution), would be run your cl implementation and your program in the application environment (xterm, gui, whatever), and to launch a swank server in it.  Then you can slime-connect to it from emacs, to go on developping and debugging.
2014-05-02T05:35:21Z quazimodo: <- sbcl, so I'll have to port it I suppose
2014-05-02T05:35:30Z pjb: Use the alternative then.
2014-05-02T05:35:43Z quazimodo: hrm that's something I never thought of
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2014-05-02T05:36:25Z quazimodo: that's just the general case for all lisp software, isn't it
2014-05-02T05:36:26Z pjb: But otherwise, it may be a good idea to implement make-xterm-io-stream on several implementation, since it lets you open new xterms by lisp applications.  This can really come handy.
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2014-05-02T05:48:12Z ahungry: does a package have to be amazing to be submitted to quicklisp?  Now that I fixed my global readtable butchery, would something like my glyphs package be received?
2014-05-02T05:48:48Z Bike: i think the main criterion is that it's not another half-baked utility library
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2014-05-02T05:52:31Z Bike: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/657 random pick
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2014-05-02T05:56:57Z ahungry: Hm, well, this aims to change syntax a bit although ultimately its just shorthand for (cond statements and cl-ppcre functions in the end
2014-05-02T05:57:17Z ahungry: (ƒ factorial 0 → 1 α → (* α (factorial (1- α)))) => factorial for instance
2014-05-02T05:57:51Z ahungry: has macros for parenscript also which I found nice for setting up things like key mappings in some of the html5 games I wrote in CL/parenscript
2014-05-02T05:58:26Z loke: re
2014-05-02T05:59:04Z ahungry: (ƒƒ key-action 33 → (move-unit "left") 34 → (move-unit "right")), that type of thing
2014-05-02T05:59:29Z Bike: ahungry: by 'utility library' i mean something that implements factorial, flatten, that kinda crud that's in alexandria
2014-05-02T05:59:30Z ahungry: at some point i need to add pattern matching for it
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2014-05-02T06:00:12Z ahungry: ah, yea this does not implement anything other than some unique syntax which makes for some concise readable code in other projects i do
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2014-05-02T06:01:06Z ahungry: here is a good example in my game of it in use
2014-05-02T06:01:08Z ahungry: https://github.com/ahungry/pseudo/blob/master/items.lisp#L246
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2014-05-02T06:01:54Z ahungry: well, headin to bed, night all
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2014-05-02T06:14:04Z rk[1]: :)
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2014-05-02T07:09:40Z dim: jasom: well way faster here is 25 to 30 times faster
2014-05-02T07:10:03Z dim: pjb: in case you didn't see it, thanks much for the clisp keyboard/console-window advices, I've put them to good use already
2014-05-02T07:10:32Z quazimodo: pjb: I've got the swank server working, (though quicklisp gave me a 2011 version). I'm guessing I want to keep my main loop alive, and to stick the call to start a swank server in a handler-case ?
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2014-05-02T07:11:00Z Bike: depends on the swank communication style, you could just give it its own thread
2014-05-02T07:11:17Z quazimodo: as in (defun main () (some loop (handler-case (do the main stuff) (condition (swank))))
2014-05-02T07:11:37Z quazimodo: Bike: i don't know how to keep my program from exiting when swank's persisting in its own thread.
2014-05-02T07:11:41Z Bike: oh, i see
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2014-05-02T07:12:00Z Bike: can you not just (some loop (do the main stuff)) for that?
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2014-05-02T07:12:57Z quazimodo: Bike: wherever, I don't mind where the loop is... I just dont know how to get sbcl to enter a debugger on or in swank, however it's defined
2014-05-02T07:13:25Z quazimodo: as in if my main program errors, how doe i get sbcl to wait for swank server to be connected to, and deal with it
2014-05-02T07:13:37Z Bike: i'm not sure, sorry.
2014-05-02T07:14:50Z quazimodo: I'm suspecing that sbcl's --script option turns of debugger
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2014-05-02T07:15:30Z quazimodo: I'm thinking i need to get sbcl to launch a swank server, or delegate to one, as it's default action for entering the debugger
2014-05-02T07:15:44Z Bike: --script implies --disable-debugger
2014-05-02T07:16:33Z quazimodo: Bike: yeah it's a shebang script. Maybe I need to remove that and compile it to a binary
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2014-05-02T07:47:35Z dim: buildapp! ;-)
2014-05-02T07:49:14Z pjb: quazimodo: you should slime-connect before encountering a bug.
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2014-05-02T07:51:24Z pjb: Just run: (let ((swank::*loopback-interface* "AAA.BBB.CCC.DDD") (port 4005)) (swank:create-server :port port)) ; at the start of your program.
2014-05-02T07:51:46Z pjb: s/AAA.BBB.CCC.DDD/${yourIP}/
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2014-05-02T07:53:16Z quazimodo: sure. I'm trying to learn these things in the slime docs, I donte know what that function does
2014-05-02T07:53:25Z quazimodo: not exactly, anywoy
2014-05-02T07:53:56Z pjb: This is how you create a swank server to which M-x slime-connect may connect to.
2014-05-02T07:54:12Z Bike: regular loopback no good?
2014-05-02T07:54:27Z pjb: not if you wan to connect from another host.
2014-05-02T07:54:46Z pjb: quazimodo: You'd know if if you'd googled for swank server and read the howto.
2014-05-02T07:54:52Z pjb: http://www.cliki.net/slime-howto
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2014-05-02T07:56:21Z quazimodo: Oh i have indeed read that. My problem is that I'm not sure how to get my lisp to connect the debugger to the swank servers IO
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2014-05-02T07:57:19Z quazimodo: so that, say a condition occurs, it will pause and wait for something to connect and fix it
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2014-05-02T08:04:02Z quazimodo: pjb: what would you do here?
2014-05-02T08:05:36Z quazimodo: run the forms in your main loop within a handler-case, try to resolve it nicely and ask the user to connect via swank and clean it up?
2014-05-02T08:07:25Z quazimodo: argh I have to go. I suppose I'll just think about this and see what my brain gives me. cya guys :)
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2014-05-02T08:11:52Z dim: extra thread?
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2014-05-02T09:20:10Z dim: I think I'm going to put http://lisptips.com/post/12364147536/a-concatenated-stream-trick into good use today ;-)
2014-05-02T09:23:02Z dim: oh noe make-concatenated-stream only deals with input-streams
2014-05-02T09:23:21Z H4ns: does make-broadcast-stream not work as well?
2014-05-02T09:23:51Z dim: trying
2014-05-02T09:24:34Z dim: (need to compile an app on a VM to test)
2014-05-02T09:24:53Z H4ns: we lispers have a repl to try things out in :)
2014-05-02T09:25:37Z dim: works, thanks much
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2014-05-02T09:25:59Z dim: well in that case the REPL sits on a MacOSX and I'm using debian specific commands in the tool
2014-05-02T09:26:36Z dim: so I somehow need to run the thing in the debian vm, and as I want to ensure a smooth experience to non-lisp hackers running the CLI, that's what I restrict myself to be using here, when on the squeeze vm
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2014-05-02T09:39:28Z JuanDaugherty thought a) boxen were cheap these days and b) the point of running vms on a largeish one was instant context switch
2014-05-02T09:41:40Z dim: buildapp isn't instant, the M-x shell in the vm feels the same as the local shell though
2014-05-02T09:42:42Z JuanDaugherty: I meant like xen, vmware type vms dunno from 'buildapp'
2014-05-02T09:43:05Z dim: vagrant is what I'm using nowadays
2014-05-02T09:43:16Z JuanDaugherty: k
2014-05-02T09:43:26Z dim: buildapp is a CL tool built around save-lisp-image-and-die
2014-05-02T09:47:11Z dim: wow. (RENAME-FILE #P"/tmp/ql-to-deb/anaphora-0.9.4" "cl-anaphora") --> couldn't rename /tmp/ql-to-deb/anaphora-0.9.4 to /tmp/ql-to-deb/cl-anaphora.4: Directory not empty
2014-05-02T09:47:23Z dim: where is the .4 coming from here?!
2014-05-02T09:47:30Z dim: oh ok
2014-05-02T09:47:44Z dim: pathnames defaults and all the jazz would be my guess
2014-05-02T09:47:54Z jdz: and file type
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2014-05-02T09:48:15Z H4ns: kind of bold trying to use rename-file to rename a directory
2014-05-02T09:48:57Z dim: true enough
2014-05-02T09:49:00Z dim: what would you use?
2014-05-02T09:49:29Z dim: (on the other hand ISTM a directory is just another kind of file in Unix)
2014-05-02T09:49:46Z H4ns: i'd use some posix or implementation specific function.
2014-05-02T09:49:52Z H4ns: dim: "haha"
2014-05-02T09:50:50Z dim: well that's another run-command then
2014-05-02T09:50:56Z JuanDaugherty: rly
2014-05-02T09:51:02Z H4ns: dim: the thing is: common lisp does not think that files and directories are the same.  but it also thinks that a file needs to have an "extension"
2014-05-02T09:51:25Z dim: I'm kind of learning that the hard way yes
2014-05-02T09:51:28Z JuanDaugherty: like when Indiana Jones just shoots that guy
2014-05-02T09:51:47Z H4ns: dim: if you're dealing with files where you have no control over the names used, you're bound to end up in tears if you try using cl's pathname and file name handling functions.
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2014-05-02T09:53:32Z dim: I'm also using uiop pathnames and filesystem features to stay away from tears
2014-05-02T09:54:07Z dim: I've been using cl-fad in the past but didn't like much the approach pathname-as-directory etc, and couldn't find a way to move up and down the directories easily
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2014-05-02T10:23:16Z samebchase: What should I give :element-type in make-array to create a bit-vector ?
2014-05-02T10:23:32Z pjb: 'bit
2014-05-02T10:24:42Z samebchase: cool thanks
2014-05-02T10:25:01Z samebchase: can you link me to the clhs page which lists out all valid CL types?
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2014-05-02T10:28:01Z samebchase: found it: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/04_bc.htm
2014-05-02T10:28:08Z hitecnologys: How does one use timezones in local-time? I've tried reading docs but I still can't figure out how to specify them.
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2014-05-02T10:36:11Z H4ns: hitecnologys: most functions have a timezone argument, and there is *default-timezone*.  what is unclear to you?
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2014-05-02T10:40:11Z hitecnologys: H4ns: it's unclear to me how do I specify custom timezones like 0325 or 0300 or whatever. Is this possible?
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2014-05-02T10:42:45Z H4ns: hitecnologys: it should be - have a look into the source.  there is a %make-simple-timezone function that you could study.
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2014-05-02T10:46:54Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I see. Thanks for help.
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2014-05-02T10:52:18Z hitecnologys: Huh. Looks like local-time operates on zoneinfo files. So, to define timezone I need to either write one myself or use those located in /usr/share/zoneinfo. %make-simple-timezone doesn't actually make real timezone but makes UTC+0000 timezone with a different name and, optionally, offset which, however, only signals that zone has offset.
2014-05-02T10:52:44Z H4ns: yes.
2014-05-02T10:53:19Z hitecnologys: Nice.
2014-05-02T10:53:57Z hitecnologys: Then I can just plug standard zoneinfo files in and enjoy my timezones.
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2014-05-02T11:37:50Z szh_: Hi, is there a convention for the order in which dependent functions are written in functional programming? i.e. if i have a function called function1, which calls function2 and function3 also, should i place the function2 and function3 after function1 or before it in my script?
2014-05-02T11:38:47Z stassats: as long as it's called when everything is defined, it doesn't matter much
2014-05-02T11:38:50Z hitecnologys: szh_: I don't think there's is a strict convetion. Just place them in a logical, reasonable way and you're good.
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2014-05-02T11:40:05Z hitecnologys: s/convetion/convention/
2014-05-02T11:40:13Z hitecnologys: Ah, crap.
2014-05-02T11:40:56Z hitecnologys: Whatever, you got the idea.
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2014-05-02T11:44:47Z szh_: Oh. I personally prefer to write them top-down, with the most dependent first, so I guess thats cool.
2014-05-02T11:44:52Z szh_: Thanks a lot! :D
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2014-05-02T11:46:15Z jdz: so, anybody up for hanging out tomorrow or the day after in Paris?
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2014-05-02T11:54:03Z jdz: ugh, everybody's gone...
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2014-05-02T12:02:08Z pjb: jdz: there have been netsplits.
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2014-05-02T12:04:00Z jdz: nah, i'm sure everybody's intentionally ignoring me
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2014-05-02T12:11:31Z stassats: or Paris is just too far away
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2014-05-02T12:14:32Z splittist: jdz: what did you have in mind?
2014-05-02T12:15:30Z jdz: splittist: i have no idea, really. if i don't find anybody, i'll most probably just go over to Eiffel tower...
2014-05-02T12:15:43Z Krystof: I only get there Sunday evening, sorry
2014-05-02T12:15:45Z jdz: i arrive a bit past 9
2014-05-02T12:16:04Z splittist: jdz: you won't be alone if you do (go to the tower)
2014-05-02T12:16:30Z stassats: ... in a queue
2014-05-02T12:16:37Z jdz: right
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2014-05-02T12:18:27Z jdz: towards the evening might be a good time to have some [more] beer
2014-05-02T12:18:35Z splittist: jdz: I'm already in Paris, so could meet up. I'm actually not far from the Eiffel Tower, so you could factor that in. I have a function tonight and don't know when I'll surface Saturday, but it probably won't be early, I'm afraid...
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2014-05-02T12:24:21Z jdz wonders how many #els2014 events are there on twitter
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2014-05-02T12:26:33Z fe[nl]ix: \\\\\\\\\\\\\\
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2014-05-02T12:35:00Z jdz: splittist: not exactly sure what would be the best way to get in contact; my email is smuglispweenie on the google mail service
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2014-05-02T12:40:22Z splittist: jdz: Better than that facetweet all the unruly youths seem to affect these days. I'll email you. Worth keeping this in logs in case others wish to join.
2014-05-02T12:43:58Z Shinmera: Out of curiosity; I don't suppose there's any lispers from Zürich in here?
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2014-05-02T12:47:16Z Krystof: occasionally
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2014-05-02T12:59:37Z oleo: morning
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2014-05-02T13:03:32Z hitecnologys: How accurate are SBCL timers?
2014-05-02T13:04:14Z H4ns: verz
2014-05-02T13:04:16Z H4ns: very
2014-05-02T13:04:26Z oleo: depends on voltage!
2014-05-02T13:04:27Z oleo: lol
2014-05-02T13:04:56Z hitecnologys: I see.
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2014-05-02T13:07:10Z hitecnologys: I did some tests and accuracy is somewhere around hundreds of microseconds on averagely loaded system. Just wanted to make sure I didn't screw up. Did I?
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2014-05-02T13:09:47Z |3b|: probably also depends on OS and OS configuration
2014-05-02T13:10:36Z hitecnologys: Yeah, I think so.
2014-05-02T13:11:49Z hitecnologys: But my previous question also rises another question. How accurate is LOCAL-TIME:NOW? Can I realy on it when doing benchmarks?
2014-05-02T13:12:14Z H4ns: hitecnologys: i'd use get-internal-run-time
2014-05-02T13:12:43Z H4ns: (if you're interested in run time, of course)
2014-05-02T13:12:47Z hitecnologys: H4ns: aha, that's what I do now. Just checking if there are different ways to get precise timings.
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2014-05-02T13:13:15Z jdz: hitecnologys: you'll most probably get wrong results if you rely on microsecond precision
2014-05-02T13:13:30Z H4ns: hitecnologys: i'd not expect local-time to be precise in the sub-second range.  local-time is for dealing with wallclock time.
2014-05-02T13:13:33Z hitecnologys: jdz: I see.
2014-05-02T13:13:55Z Shinmera: Given that local-time was made for dealing with the mess that is date time, I would not rely on it for timing.
2014-05-02T13:14:22Z hitecnologys: Well, I'd stick to G-I-R-T then.
2014-05-02T13:14:30Z hitecnologys: I'll*
2014-05-02T13:18:10Z hitecnologys: What does SBCL profiler use to measure time?
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2014-05-02T14:01:45Z lorefyr: Hello #Lisp
2014-05-02T14:01:52Z easye: ELO
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2014-05-02T14:05:35Z ahungry: hi
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2014-05-02T14:09:59Z ahungry: style question, in my glyphs package i'm working on, I have it set up so you can do (ƒ cats-not-dogs ~"(dog)"~ → "cat"), which would then become (cats-not-dogs "I love dogs") => "I love cats"
2014-05-02T14:10:16Z ahungry: sorry, actually
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2014-05-02T14:10:27Z ahungry: style question, in my glyphs package i'm working on, I have it set up so you can do (ƒ cats-not-dogs ~"(dog)"~ → |"cat"|), which would then become (cats-not-dogs "I love dogs") => "I love cats"
2014-05-02T14:10:43Z ahungry: would ["(dog)"] → {"cat"} be better though?
2014-05-02T14:10:48Z ahungry: than using ~ and | as read macros
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2014-05-02T14:22:28Z lorefyr: Are there any books you would recommend for an unexperienced programmer that knows no lisp yet to get started?
2014-05-02T14:22:45Z hitecnologys: minion: tell lorefyr about pcl
2014-05-02T14:22:45Z minion: lorefyr: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2014-05-02T14:22:48Z Xach: lorefyr: practical common lisp, paradigms of ai programming
2014-05-02T14:23:23Z ahungry: yea pcl is awesome
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2014-05-02T14:25:09Z lorefyr: Nice, thank you. Also, I heard that learning lisp enhances view on programming in particular. But besides theory, are there "common" practical problems or programs that are good to solve with lisp rather than C++ or Java for example?
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2014-05-02T14:26:29Z H4ns: lorefyr: lisp is good for exploratory development
2014-05-02T14:27:01Z hitecnologys: And incremental one too.
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2014-05-02T14:27:38Z H4ns: lorefyr: it has great support for experimentation on the repl, which is something that you don't really get with statically typed languages.  lisp's support for that is also better than with most other contemporary dynamic languages.
2014-05-02T14:27:46Z splittist: If you don't know what you're building or how to build it, use lisp. If you do know what you're building and how to build it, you're just a meat-based text-editor, so stop that, and use lisp to do something better. (:
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2014-05-02T14:29:23Z lorefyr: That sounds quite interesting
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2014-05-02T14:31:44Z hitecnologys: And from my experience in C++ development, I can tell you that you don't easily make C++ behave like you want it to.
2014-05-02T14:33:00Z loke_: hitecnologys: It is, however, possible with a lot of hard work to make C++ behave somewhat like what you want it to, if you squint your eyes a bit.
2014-05-02T14:33:12Z loke_: Boost is a good example of such project
2014-05-02T14:33:45Z lorefyr: So basically, Lisp is rather borderless compared to object oriented languages?
2014-05-02T14:33:53Z loke_: lorefyr: Pretty much
2014-05-02T14:34:00Z hitecnologys: loke_: indeed.
2014-05-02T14:34:34Z lorefyr: What is Boost?
2014-05-02T14:34:42Z loke_: lorefyr: that said, "object oriented languages" doesn't really such much. Lisp does, after all, have a very complete object system. Much more complete in fact than most languages.
2014-05-02T14:34:47Z Viaken: lorefyr: The Little Schemer is fairly nice, too, although that's more oriented toward Scheme.
2014-05-02T14:34:47Z hitecnologys: lorefyr: a library for C++.
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2014-05-02T14:35:08Z hitecnologys: lorefyr: it adds hell lots of stuff, I can't even summarize it all.
2014-05-02T14:36:04Z lorefyr: Oh ok, I think I heard of it, is boost the library project that wanted to get integrated in C++ standard library for quite a while?
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2014-05-02T14:36:16Z loke_: lorefyr: I'm sure they wanted to
2014-05-02T14:36:19Z H4ns: boost is also off-topic in #lisp
2014-05-02T14:36:24Z loke_: lorefyr: they are quite full of themselves
2014-05-02T14:36:28Z hitecnologys: loke_: I heard that C++11 did change many things so programming in C++ may be easier now that it was when I was writing in it.
2014-05-02T14:37:17Z loke_: hitecnologys: Depends on what you mean by "easy". They seem to be taking the long way around in their attempt to reimplement Lisp
2014-05-02T14:37:17Z hitecnologys: H4ns: indeed, sorry for that.
2014-05-02T14:37:30Z loke_: In the mean time, Lisp is right here. Working.
2014-05-02T14:37:52Z hitecnologys: loke_: aha, C++ is moving towards Lisp, I guess.
2014-05-02T14:38:05Z loke_: hitecnologys: Indeed.
2014-05-02T14:38:27Z Viaken: That whole "bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp" thing, eh?
2014-05-02T14:38:30Z lorefyr: Ok, sorry for Off-Topic. Back to Lisp, so Lisp is able to do "object oriented" stuff as well?
2014-05-02T14:38:33Z loke_: Viaken: yes :-)
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2014-05-02T14:38:50Z hitecnologys: lorefyr: CL has one of the most advanced OO systems.
2014-05-02T14:38:59Z loke_: lorefyr: Yes. It does it by focusing on generic functions rather than objects (which is a more flexible concept)
2014-05-02T14:39:16Z loke_: lorefyr: What object systems do you know already?
2014-05-02T14:39:41Z hitecnologys: lorefyr: only Smalltalk can, probably, compete with it.
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2014-05-02T14:40:36Z hitecnologys: (however, this is arguable statement)
2014-05-02T14:40:44Z lorefyr: I started with Java and currently I am getting started with C++
2014-05-02T14:40:53Z loke_: hitecnologys: Smalltalk doesn't have multimethods though, right?
2014-05-02T14:41:06Z hitecnologys: loke_: it does have something like multimethods.
2014-05-02T14:41:48Z hitecnologys: loke_: it focuses on passing messages, messages can be handled differently so one can try implementing multimethods.
2014-05-02T14:41:56Z loke_: lorefyr: Well, in Java you add methods to classes. Yes? Lisp is not like that. A method is a standalone thing which we call "generic function" in the Lisp world. A generic function can have zero or more methods which are chosen based on the type of the arguments.
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2014-05-02T14:43:13Z Viaken: I feel like Java has something similar, but I haven't written enough to know.
2014-05-02T14:43:26Z loke_: Viaken: It does not.
2014-05-02T14:43:28Z jdz: loke_: chosen to form the "effective method" that gets executed :)
2014-05-02T14:43:30Z hitecnologys: Viaken: it has reflection or something like that.
2014-05-02T14:43:43Z hitecnologys: Viaken: but it's not even close to generic functions.
2014-05-02T14:43:51Z loke_: jdz: I'm trying to keep it simple :-)
2014-05-02T14:44:12Z splittist: more than one might be chosen, and combined in interesting ways. And that's just the default rules. With a magic MOP you can determine how things are chosen and combined, which might /not/ be the type of the arguments. And so on (:
2014-05-02T14:44:13Z loke_: hitecnologys: you could implement something superficially similar, but it's be a bit of a mess :-)
2014-05-02T14:44:21Z Viaken: I must be mistaken. :)
2014-05-02T14:44:23Z hitecnologys: loke_: aha.
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2014-05-02T14:45:57Z loke_: hitecnologys: I guess you could define a method that takes (Object...objs) as argument and then implement a method selector based on reflecting on the arguments. I feel like throwing up just by thinging about it, but I might yet implement it just for the hell of it :-)
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2014-05-02T14:46:24Z hitecnologys: By the way, can anybody point me to a real-life example where method combination is used? I've read lots of code but I haven't seen much of those.
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2014-05-02T14:47:02Z hitecnologys: loke_: yes, one can implement this. The question is: will all the pain be worth it?
2014-05-02T14:48:21Z loke_: hitecnologys: Definitely now.
2014-05-02T14:48:22Z loke_: not.
2014-05-02T14:48:40Z loke_: hitecnologys: I considered using it once, and then decided not to. Is that close enough? :-)
2014-05-02T14:48:51Z hitecnologys: loke_: sort of.
2014-05-02T14:49:22Z loke_: Searching my quicklisp shows that mcclim uses it
2014-05-02T14:50:40Z loke_: melisp as well
2014-05-02T14:50:42Z loke_: femlisp
2014-05-02T14:51:35Z lorefyr: So in lisp you mainly invoke chains of functions instead of attaching methods to classes?
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2014-05-02T14:52:12Z hitecnologys: lorefyr: sort of.
2014-05-02T14:52:26Z lorefyr: or rather branches than chains =)
2014-05-02T14:52:34Z Xach: methods are attached to generic functions instead
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2014-05-02T14:55:15Z puchacz: hi, I see (every 'oddp nil) returns true, but I am not sure if it is by accident or by specs
2014-05-02T14:55:15Z lorefyr: ok, thanks guys for the quick overview, are there any other resources on lisp you would recommend?
2014-05-02T14:56:06Z puchacz: specs says "If the end of a sequence is reached, every returns true. Thus, every returns true if and only if every invocation of predicate returns true."
2014-05-02T14:56:18Z Xach: lorefyr: if you get stuck, ask a person for help instead of using google
2014-05-02T14:56:23Z hitecnologys: lorefyr: there's cliki.net, worth exploring.
2014-05-02T14:56:37Z puchacz: first sentence suggests my case works by specs. second makes me feel ambigious
2014-05-02T14:56:55Z puchacz: (sorry lorefyr for cutting in)
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2014-05-02T14:57:08Z Xach: puchacz: it is analagous to AND and OR
2014-05-02T14:57:23Z lorefyr: well I guess I'll hangout here more often as well =)
2014-05-02T14:57:31Z Xach: puchacz: (and) => t
2014-05-02T14:57:33Z puchacz: (and) returns true
2014-05-02T14:57:34Z lorefyr: puchacz: No problem
2014-05-02T14:57:37Z puchacz: exactly
2014-05-02T14:57:44Z puchacz: again, is it by design/specs?
2014-05-02T14:58:00Z Xach: by design
2014-05-02T14:58:20Z puchacz: ok, thanks Xach. one condition less to check in my code then
2014-05-02T15:00:06Z White_Flame: I do agree that the second sentence's IFF doesn't seem to apply here.  Since there was no invocation, the notion of "every invocation" seems ill (or recursively) defined in that context
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2014-05-02T15:12:12Z j_king: bordeaux-threads q: does the zmq socket bound in this method https://github.com/agentultra/butler/blob/master/kernel.lisp#L18 count as a local binding that may not be shared (depending on implementation)
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2014-05-02T15:20:31Z j_king: trying to understand what is implied in http://trac.common-lisp.net/bordeaux-threads/wiki/ApiDocumentation#make-threadfunctionkeyname
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2014-05-02T15:25:14Z |3b|: i think that doc is talking about special vars, so it probably doesn't apply
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2014-05-02T15:27:29Z j_king: |3b| thanks.
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2014-05-02T15:42:55Z dim: Xach: in case you're interested, https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb
2014-05-02T15:43:38Z dim: also, if Common Lisp debian packagers are in this channel, opinions and help welcome on that, the goal is to make it easy to add and maintain Quicklisp releases as debian packages, piggybacking on the excellent work from Xach
2014-05-02T15:45:22Z Xach: dim: do you check my gpg signatures?
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2014-05-02T15:45:50Z dim: only the md5 as of now
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2014-05-02T15:46:36Z dim: it's version 0.3.0 tho, so I'm sure I will get to add bug fixes and features
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2014-05-02T16:37:33Z ejbs: I consistently get an error from SBCL about an attempt to dump an invalid structure when compiling a defmethod. Is this probably a bug from SBCL and should I report it somewhere? I can dump stack trace and code
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2014-05-02T16:40:06Z ejbs: I actually found the precise form where SBCL decides to jump ship
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2014-05-02T16:55:54Z Bike: do tell
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2014-05-02T16:58:06Z ejbs: Bike: Are you talking to me lol :)?
2014-05-02T16:58:10Z nicdev: ejbs: i think you got an error in this code here (< (field-value :y self) *ground-level* (not jumpingp)) as noted in http://paste.lisp.org/display/142368
2014-05-02T16:58:22Z Bike: yes, i see you took it to #sbcl though
2014-05-02T16:58:52Z ejbs: nicdev: Haha, the code isn't supposed to work like it should yet, thanks anyway
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2014-05-02T17:00:00Z ejbs: nicdev: Also yeah, I see the error
2014-05-02T17:00:09Z stassats: well, that's what causes the sbcl problem
2014-05-02T17:00:20Z stassats: anyhow, splitting this into two channels is not nice
2014-05-02T17:00:38Z Bike: yeah sorry
2014-05-02T17:04:25Z nicdev: stassats: so his code still exposes an sbcl issue? could not have caught that
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2014-05-02T17:05:18Z Bike: ideally ejbs should see a type error rather than a bizarre internal-looking error, you know?
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2014-05-02T17:20:14Z stassats: i expected that issue to be already fixed
2014-05-02T17:20:23Z stassats: but ejbs didn't disclose his sbcl version
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2014-05-02T17:20:58Z ejbs`: stassats: I did in an annotation actually (it's 1.1.5 by the way, so it may be fixed)
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2014-05-02T17:25:21Z wbooze: waaahahaha, cool random coloring in beirc soon.....
2014-05-02T17:25:52Z kuanyui: Any easy way to check if a list contains "not nil" elements? for example: '(nil nil nil nil nil "test" nil)
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2014-05-02T17:26:14Z wbooze: i wrote that today already....
2014-05-02T17:26:40Z drewc: clhs: some
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2014-05-02T17:27:06Z drewc: err ... it seems I forget how to use specbot ....
2014-05-02T17:27:15Z ejbs`: kuanyui: (some #'identity)
2014-05-02T17:27:27Z ggole: (some #identity list)
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2014-05-02T17:27:37Z stassats: (find nil list :test-not #'eql)
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2014-05-02T17:29:08Z kuanyui: Wow~ The methods I've never seen, thanks everybody~
2014-05-02T17:29:17Z drewc: kuanyui: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm
2014-05-02T17:30:14Z wbooze: (defun is-nil (x) (if (atom x) (not x))) (is-nil nil)
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2014-05-02T17:30:35Z stassats: huh?
2014-05-02T17:30:39Z wbooze: (mapcar #'is-nil '(blah blah))
2014-05-02T17:30:59Z wbooze: or mapcan.....
2014-05-02T17:31:08Z stassats: too much booze
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2014-05-02T17:32:21Z drewc: and two is not enough #\v's ... or in english #\u's
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2014-05-02T19:10:22Z wbooze: oh man i always conflate case with cond....
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2014-05-02T19:11:25Z Viaken: It's car and cons for me. That doesn't even make sense.
2014-05-02T19:11:40Z wbooze: ya you are used to it.....
2014-05-02T19:12:55Z wbooze: i read clhs and after some time it trickled....wait that's not what i should use.....
2014-05-02T19:13:44Z wbooze: (case color ((> 5) .......
2014-05-02T19:14:01Z wbooze: stead of (cond ((> color 5) .........
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2014-05-02T19:16:51Z stassats: (typecase color ((integer (5)))
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2014-05-02T19:18:16Z wbooze: (let ((color (random 20)))
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2014-05-02T19:18:30Z wbooze: (let ((color (random 20)))
2014-05-02T19:18:34Z wbooze: ups
2014-05-02T19:18:44Z Bicyclidine: maybe i don't want to let color random twenty
2014-05-02T19:19:11Z wbooze: (cond ((< color 5) +olivedrab+) ((and (> color 5) (< color 10)) +forest-green+)........
2014-05-02T19:19:35Z wbooze: i have to check ranges......
2014-05-02T19:19:55Z wbooze: does (typecase color ((integer (5))) do that ?
2014-05-02T19:20:05Z Bicyclidine: no, but (integer (5) (10)) will
2014-05-02T19:20:28Z wbooze: ah
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2014-05-02T19:21:11Z Bicyclidine: you could also do (< 5 color 10), the possibilities are endless
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2014-05-02T19:24:28Z nicdev not that i use it often but i find it neat to be able to do a rang
2014-05-02T19:26:51Z wbooze: alright i liked the short one (< 5 color 10) etc....
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2014-05-02T19:32:37Z wbooze: http://picpaste.com/pics/snap2-p9A2wZ1E.1399059129.png
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2014-05-02T19:48:02Z kuanyui: Curious about that is there an easy way to merge strings in a list (e.g.  '("The" "quick" "fox") => "The quick fox"  ) without dolist (or loop tools)?
2014-05-02T19:48:23Z Bicyclidine: clhs concatenate
2014-05-02T19:48:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_concat.htm
2014-05-02T19:50:45Z stassats: concatenate doesn't really concern itself with lists of strings
2014-05-02T19:50:52Z kuanyui: but input is a LIST containing strings of element.@@
2014-05-02T19:51:11Z stassats: (format t "~{~a~^ ~}" '("The" "quick" "fox"))
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2014-05-02T19:51:37Z stassats: or (format nil "~{~a~^ ~}" '("The" "quick" "fox"))
2014-05-02T19:51:44Z kuanyui: Wow...format
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2014-05-02T19:54:02Z splittist: format rocks.
2014-05-02T19:56:36Z antoszka: format is a nice programming language. Better than brainfuck or whitespace :)
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2014-05-02T19:57:46Z antoszka: But yeah, what stassats says would be the canonical list_of_strings.join(" ")
2014-05-02T19:58:02Z antoszka: unless you use some external libraries.
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2014-05-02T20:00:08Z splittist: such as uiop's strcat
2014-05-02T20:01:04Z oleo: what if i want to append (1- around other forms depending on some counter etc.... ?
2014-05-02T20:01:21Z oleo: (1- (1- (1-......(1- x)......
2014-05-02T20:01:36Z drewc: ah format .... so nice, so hard to read, and so slow ... I use it all the time.
2014-05-02T20:01:56Z oleo: and define say constant decrementers upto 10....like 2-, 3-, 4-
2014-05-02T20:02:27Z oleo: format is slow ?
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2014-05-02T20:03:07Z Bicyclidine: are you going to complain about slowness after asking how to decrement a number by ten by calling a function ten times
2014-05-02T20:03:07Z ahungry: you could always join a list of strings with reduce and concatenate
2014-05-02T20:03:11Z ahungry: if you hate format for some reason
2014-05-02T20:03:14Z ahungry: (reduce (lambda (a b) (concatenate 'string a b)) '("one" "two" "three"))
2014-05-02T20:03:40Z heddwch: Bicyclidine's last comment wins the internet for today.
2014-05-02T20:04:17Z Bicyclidine: oleo: also you could do (loop repeat x for form = form then `(1- ,form) finally (return form)) or something
2014-05-02T20:04:59Z oleo: will i need a macro ?
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2014-05-02T20:05:09Z Bicyclidine: what does that mean
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2014-05-02T20:05:15Z stassats: you'll need a "clue"
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2014-05-02T20:06:23Z ahungry: lol
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2014-05-02T20:07:34Z splittist: If anyone really cared about making their format control strings readable it would be simple enough to use something like #.(strcat "~{~:@[!~;..." ; explanatory comment /n "~3*$" ; another explanatory comment /n etc...). Or even a simple read-macro: #"..." that eats leading and trailing whitespace and line comments.
2014-05-02T20:08:08Z antoszka: :)
2014-05-02T20:08:26Z dim: or we would have a comparable-to-iterate lib for formating text, maybe
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2014-05-02T20:08:51Z Bicyclidine: or use the standard pretty printing system nobody uses
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2014-05-02T20:09:33Z antoszka: oleo: Just because you have ` and , in a form does not mean you need a macro. These are just short forms of QUASIQUOTE and UNQUOTE (which don't – for some reason – exists in CL in their long forms, but ' and QUOTE do).
2014-05-02T20:09:40Z splittist: dim: it turns out such libraries die from disuse. Format control strings are like string-based regex syntax: just good enough.
2014-05-02T20:10:08Z splittist: Bicyclidine: but pretty printing and FORMAT are intimately intermingled.
2014-05-02T20:10:08Z oleo: allright, i think i'm just too tired for it now....
2014-05-02T20:10:11Z dim: there's cl-interpol to make it easier on the regexp side of things
2014-05-02T20:10:26Z antoszka: BTW, what's the historical reason for not having UNQUOTE and QUASIQUOTE in CL?
2014-05-02T20:10:53Z Bicyclidine: splittist: i mean the stuff that format ends up using, like pprint-logical-block
2014-05-02T20:10:54Z stassats: what is the reason to have it?
2014-05-02T20:11:03Z drewc: dim: define "easy"
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2014-05-02T20:11:22Z stassats: Bicyclidine: that's only for ~<
2014-05-02T20:11:24Z dim: drewc: exactly why I said "easier" ;-)
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2014-05-02T20:11:37Z Bicyclidine: "like"!
2014-05-02T20:12:07Z drewc: dim: fair enough, touché :)
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2014-05-02T20:13:19Z antoszka: stassats: what is the reason of having both QUOTE and ', but only , and `.
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2014-05-02T20:13:53Z Bicyclidine: you couldn't implement ' as strictly a reader macro, could you?
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2014-05-02T20:14:27Z Bicyclidine: (i know there's an implementation of quote as a macro in scheme, but that doesn't cover all the constancy properties in CL)
2014-05-02T20:14:41Z stassats: ' is a reader macro
2014-05-02T20:15:17Z Bicyclidine: i meant implementing quotation semantics without touching the evaluator (aka a special operator)
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2014-05-02T20:18:41Z splittist: antoszka: you could start from http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss198_w.htm (at the end)
2014-05-02T20:20:52Z antoszka: thx
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2014-05-02T20:29:46Z antoszka: splittist: actually, the whole thing is a fun read.
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2014-05-02T20:50:34Z dim: random idea: when using buildapp (save-lisp-image-and-die) with say SBCL, you have the whole of SBCL + your application code and all its dependencies already loaded, right? so it should be possible to use that to re-compile your application next-version?
2014-05-02T20:52:06Z stassats: it's better not to
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2014-05-02T20:52:22Z dim: pgloader --upgrade /path/to/newer/sources ...
2014-05-02T20:52:43Z dim: it would (asdf:load-system ...) the new system once started, then hop to usual business
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2014-05-02T20:53:13Z dim: I wouldn't forcibly make a new binary, see, just allow users of pgloader 3.0.99 to "hot patch" it with the new code source while waiting for the new release
2014-05-02T20:53:28Z dim: is it completely stupid and doomed to fail hard?
2014-05-02T20:53:49Z stassats: it's not
2014-05-02T20:54:15Z dim: I'm quite excited by the idea, I suppose I'm far from the first one to think about it, do you know apps in the field already doing that?
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2014-05-02T20:57:25Z Fare: dim: should work, as long as none of your libraries does something that prevents upgrade, like change the signature of a gf
2014-05-02T20:57:50Z Fare: actually, even a change in package signature can be a pain, on SBCL
2014-05-02T20:57:56Z jasom: Fare: or changing the signature of any function that is called across file boundaries I think
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2014-05-02T20:58:23Z Fare: dim: back in the days, my usual modus operandi was to hot-patch cliki, because the upstream author wouldn't take my fixes.
2014-05-02T20:58:57Z Fare: jasom: only bad if the function is in the current call stack.
2014-05-02T20:59:15Z jasom: Fare: or it gets called by another thread while in the middle of a compile
2014-05-02T20:59:19Z Fare: or rather, directly called by a frame in the call stack
2014-05-02T20:59:25Z dim: I wouldn't support libs upgrade, I don't think
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2014-05-02T20:59:54Z jasom: specwise, I think you have violated a requirement just by changing it, though for practical purposes that might not matter.
2014-05-02T20:59:55Z dim: and it would controllably happen at image startup
2014-05-02T21:00:02Z dim: well with control in the application of course
2014-05-02T21:00:05Z dim: but still
2014-05-02T21:00:10Z dim: before code is in use
2014-05-02T21:00:16Z dim: it sounds rather encouraging
2014-05-02T21:00:22Z Fare: dim: asdf 3.1 has a *immutable-systems* so you may prevent recompilation of installed libraries.
2014-05-02T21:00:55Z dim: well the target is non-lisp-savvy users anyway
2014-05-02T21:01:17Z Fare: dim: will you be at ELS or ILC?
2014-05-02T21:02:11Z dim: yes
2014-05-02T21:02:18Z dim: specifically, paris
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2014-05-02T21:07:00Z Fare: dim: oh, see you in a few days, then. I'll present my talk "Why Lisp is Now an Acceptable Scripting Language".
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2014-05-02T22:17:21Z dim: turns out --self-upgrade is quite easy to code, and works
2014-05-02T22:17:24Z dim: I'm so amazed
2014-05-02T22:17:37Z dim: I guess it's called connecting the dots, as I spend my days doing that in SLIME already
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2014-05-02T22:45:18Z jasom: It is nice that lisp has quite well specified semantics for updating DEFUNs
2014-05-02T22:46:00Z stassats: that you have to make everything in NOTINLINE?
2014-05-02T22:50:58Z jasom: stassats: no you don't
2014-05-02T22:51:03Z jasom: stassats: not if you recompile entire files
2014-05-02T22:51:13Z jasom: stassats: then you just have to not make anything INLINE
2014-05-02T22:51:23Z stassats: clhs inline
2014-05-02T22:51:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_inline.htm
2014-05-02T22:51:51Z jasom: clhs 3.2.2.3
2014-05-02T22:51:51Z specbot: Semantic Constraints: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm
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2014-05-02T23:05:05Z Fare makes everything NOTINLINE in asdf precisely so that hot upgrade is manageable.
2014-05-02T23:06:13Z jasom: Fare: is that because DEFUNs might change files?
2014-05-02T23:07:09Z Fare: it;s because frames on the stack may call defun's
2014-05-02T23:07:23Z Fare: and I want to be sure which version is being called
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2014-05-02T23:07:47Z Fare: if I want the new one (usually), I need the old defun to be notinline
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2014-05-02T23:08:07Z Fare: if I want the old one, I need unintern the symbol
2014-05-02T23:08:13Z jasom: right, because you are using asdf to upgrade asdf
2014-05-02T23:08:24Z Fare: which might be a problem when it's exported / imported
2014-05-02T23:08:30Z Fare: jasom: right
2014-05-02T23:09:03Z Fare: then there are class updates
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2014-05-02T23:09:33Z Fare: and worst of all: slots the name of which has changed package
2014-05-02T23:10:05Z jasom: ouch!
2014-05-02T23:10:25Z jasom: That's not an issue, just put all slots in KEYWORD
2014-05-02T23:10:26Z jasom ducks
2014-05-02T23:10:34Z Fare: and implementations that have setf functions in a hidden symbol that depends on the symbol's name
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2014-05-02T23:10:59Z Fare: so when the symbol changes name...
2014-05-02T23:11:11Z jasom: heh
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2014-05-02T23:15:22Z Viaken: So, this seems like a stupid question, but how do you alias a function? (defvar g #'f)?
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2014-05-02T23:16:13Z stassats: (setf (fdefinition g) #'f)
2014-05-02T23:16:15Z _death: (setf (fdefinition 'g) #'f) ... some caveats there
2014-05-02T23:16:41Z Fare: viaken: (defun g (&rest args) (apply #'f args))
2014-05-02T23:19:14Z mood: Hmm, I used (setf (symbol-function 'g) #'f) in the past. Would there be any difference between FDEFINITION and SYMBOL-FUNCTION, other than FDEFINITION's behaviour on macros or special forms being "not well-defined"?
2014-05-02T23:20:18Z mood: Oh, I see. They're equivalent, except FDEFINITION accepts other arguments than just symbols.
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2014-05-02T23:35:40Z jasom: Viaken: you may need an eval-when to do the right thing when compiling
2014-05-02T23:36:36Z jasom: well for the (setf (fdefinition 'g) #'f) version anyway
2014-05-02T23:38:51Z Viaken: Sounds like too much work to just shorten the name of a function. :P
2014-05-02T23:39:11Z jasom: Viaken: Fare's version will work just fine, and the overhead isn't much
2014-05-02T23:39:49Z stassats: no arglist display in slime
2014-05-02T23:40:42Z jasom: Viaken: why not just use a shorter name to begin with?
2014-05-02T23:41:14Z Viaken: Because it's not my function.
2014-05-02T23:42:08Z jasom: Viaken: you can do some symbol-macro tricks as well, but I don't know anyone who really thinks that's a good idea
2014-05-02T23:42:54Z Fare: nixos-install fails because Font-TTF-0.48.tar.gz has the wrong digest
2014-05-02T23:42:56Z Viaken: Specifically, I didn't want to have to type array-in-bounds-p a half a dozen times.
2014-05-02T23:43:16Z Viaken: NixOS was an interesting idea. I've not explored it deeply, but the concept intrigues me.
2014-05-02T23:43:17Z jasom: (define-symbol-macro foo 'bar)
2014-05-02T23:43:31Z Fare: (wrong window)
2014-05-02T23:44:13Z p_l: #<ERROR: WRONG WINDOW>
2014-05-02T23:46:34Z jasom: using a symbol macro breaks when you bind the symbol though
2014-05-02T23:47:24Z stassats: and how would a symbol macro work for a function?
2014-05-02T23:47:45Z jasom: sorry defmacro plus symbol macro
2014-05-02T23:48:04Z stassats: what is the symbol macro for?
2014-05-02T23:48:06Z Fare: you can use my version with an inline declaration
2014-05-02T23:49:01Z jasom: ah crap (function FOO) won't expand FOO as a symbol macro
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2014-05-02T23:49:18Z jasom didn't know function was a special operator
2014-05-02T23:49:27Z jasom: though I suppose it would have to be
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2014-05-02T23:49:54Z jasom: since it's the only way to generate a lexical closure
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2014-05-03T00:24:42Z jasom: (WRITE-SEQUENCE #(0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 73 150 2 210) #<SB-SYS:FD-STREAM for "file /export/jmiller/home/foo.bin" {102AF08633}> :START 0 :END NIL) => The value NIL is not of type SB-IMPL::BUFFER.
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2014-05-03T00:26:55Z jasom: (with-open-file (s "foo.bin" :if-exists :supersede :if-does-not-exist :create :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))
2014-05-03T00:26:58Z jasom: (WRITE-SEQUENCE #(0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 73 150 2 210) s :START 0 :END NIL))
2014-05-03T00:27:08Z jasom: there's a full test
2014-05-03T00:27:50Z jasom: I'm missing :direction :output, nevermind
2014-05-03T00:28:08Z stassats: the error is "is not a binary output stream."
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2014-05-03T00:32:43Z jasom: yeah, that came up in the more reduced test
2014-05-03T00:33:07Z jasom: perhaps an underlying library declared it to be an output stream
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2014-05-03T03:05:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-05-03T03:44:57Z theos: hello mr. beach
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2014-05-03T03:50:17Z Viaken: Good evening, beach.
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2014-05-03T04:03:31Z nydel: is there a way to write a function that will neatly-format any trivial class('s values) without having met the class?
2014-05-03T04:03:47Z Bike: values meaning slots?
2014-05-03T04:03:57Z nydel: yes Bike thankyou
2014-05-03T04:04:37Z Bike: you could use the MOP
2014-05-03T04:06:10Z nydel: i see #'compute_slots .. am i on the right track
2014-05-03T04:06:40Z nydel: dash not underscore
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2014-05-03T04:08:19Z Bike: probably. i forget the details.
2014-05-03T04:09:45Z nydel: if i have a class b that has superclass a, can i access slots from an instance of a when make-instance\-ing class b, i.e. include in one of b's slot's :initform arguments a function called with a slot variable from the instance of a as a variable?
2014-05-03T04:10:46Z nydel: oh wait nevermind i see the answer is to do that in a defmethod
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2014-05-03T04:14:03Z nydel: i need way way more mirrors and dry-erase markers.
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2014-05-03T05:16:46Z beach: pjb: Around?
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2014-05-03T05:17:36Z beach: pjb: There is something fishy with the timings on "larissa".  Are you sure that processor is running at 1.7GHz?
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2014-05-03T05:21:57Z beach is confused.  cat /proc/cpuinfo says Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2500K CPU @ 3.30GHz, but also cpu MHz : 1600.000.
2014-05-03T05:22:04Z beach: Can someone explain that?
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2014-05-03T05:24:55Z rszeno: cpufrecq-info?
2014-05-03T05:25:27Z Bike: what's the first thing, the model name?
2014-05-03T05:25:29Z beach: rszeno: What is that?
2014-05-03T05:25:38Z beach: Bike: Yes.
2014-05-03T05:26:09Z rszeno: frequency depend of governer policy
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2014-05-03T05:26:52Z beach: rszeno: I don't understand.  Do you know of a way to find out what the real clock speed is?
2014-05-03T05:27:30Z Bike: i would guess that the processor is capable of 3.3 GHz but it under low load so it's governed to be lower, but that's a guess
2014-05-03T05:27:42Z rszeno: cpufreq-info will show what is able to do but not current frequency
2014-05-03T05:27:43Z beach: Hmm.  I see.
2014-05-03T05:28:08Z rszeno: same here, a guess
2014-05-03T05:28:29Z beach: rszeno: I don't know what cpufreq-info is.
2014-05-03T05:28:46Z Bike: it's a program that lets you mess with the governor settings, apparently
2014-05-03T05:28:54Z beach: Ah, I see.
2014-05-03T05:28:55Z rszeno: is a tool for controling cpu frequency
2014-05-03T05:28:58Z scoofy: part of the cpufrequtils program
2014-05-03T05:29:03Z beach: Thanks!
2014-05-03T05:29:08Z Bike: so you can overclock things, i guess, as opposed to your present underclocking
2014-05-03T05:29:24Z rszeno: cpufreq-aperf probably will do what you want, but i don't know
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2014-05-03T05:30:06Z beach: I actually don't need for it to be higher.  I just need to know what it currently is.
2014-05-03T05:30:20Z Bike: i'd go with the cpu MHz value. the name is a name.
2014-05-03T05:30:21Z p_l: cpufreq let's you manage frequency from the set supported by CPU. typical ondemand use scales based on current demand
2014-05-03T05:30:25Z scoofy: i have a program called cpu frequency monitor installed, it always shows the actual cpu frequency on the screen
2014-05-03T05:30:54Z p_l: beach: cpu MHz should be the current value
2014-05-03T05:30:56Z Bike: man, is it just me or is /proc/cpuinfo really underdocumented
2014-05-03T05:30:58Z p_l: but even that... is iffy
2014-05-03T05:31:09Z Bike: yeah i'm getting the impression this isn't good for anything serious
2014-05-03T05:31:22Z Bike: "this" meaning plaintext in /proc entirely, really...
2014-05-03T05:31:34Z beach: OK, if the real value is 1.6, that explains some strange figures I got in my tests.
2014-05-03T05:31:39Z beach: Thanks everyone.
2014-05-03T05:31:45Z p_l: Bike: it's plaintext because said plaintext is actually portable (between languages as well)
2014-05-03T05:31:53Z p_l: the data in cpuinfo depends on cpu architecture
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2014-05-03T05:32:02Z Bike: cool cool.
2014-05-03T05:32:32Z Bike: looks like lscpu outputs minimums and maximums.
2014-05-03T05:32:32Z p_l: also, x86 cpuinfo is quite self-explainable, but I guess one needs to know the terms
2014-05-03T05:32:49Z Bike: well, right, i wouldn't have wondered about it if it wasn't for the "@ 3.30 GHz" in the name.
2014-05-03T05:32:53Z p_l: the model name string is taken from CPU itself, iirc
2014-05-03T05:33:10Z p_l: so the @ 3.30 GHz is probably put there by intel
2014-05-03T05:33:21Z Bike: yeah, i thought that might be it.
2014-05-03T05:33:48Z Bike: for what it's worth, beach, my snazzy AMD CPU can get up to 3.9 GHz but is currently chilling at 1400 MHz according to both cpuinfo and lscpu.
2014-05-03T05:34:30Z scoofy: well lscpu gives you the actual MHz rate.
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2014-05-03T05:35:55Z p_l: scoofy: in my case it shows it incorrectly
2014-05-03T05:36:42Z p_l: (for some reason it takes clock from cpu0, whereas both cores and both threads have different clocks in my case)
2014-05-03T05:37:00Z p_l: although I have no idea how different threads get different clocks -_-;
2014-05-03T05:37:02Z scoofy: hm, mine is a single core cpu here
2014-05-03T05:37:27Z Bike: clock speed isn't a very useful measure nowadays anyway, is it?
2014-05-03T05:37:37Z rszeno: no is not
2014-05-03T05:37:57Z scoofy: compared to the maximal cpu speed, it's a good measure of the current performance (throttling)
2014-05-03T05:38:13Z rszeno: plus having few cpu can jump from one to another
2014-05-03T05:38:41Z beach: Bike: Thanks.  I am getting a better picture of things now.
2014-05-03T05:38:46Z p_l: actually, some cpus with certain governors will play around with deep C-states instead of dropping clock
2014-05-03T05:38:57Z p_l: life used to be simple :P
2014-05-03T05:39:20Z beach finally has an explanation to some weird timings.
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2014-05-03T05:48:58Z beach: H4ns: Can you confirm that the processor of the computer on which you ran my test is actually running at 2.2GHz?
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2014-05-03T05:51:10Z p_l: beach: best would be to run with fixed frequency... cpus today will jump around a lot
2014-05-03T05:51:14Z scoofy: cpu clock speed is 2.2 GHz and governor is set to maximum performance?
2014-05-03T05:51:41Z rszeno: and kernel control everything
2014-05-03T05:51:58Z scoofy: if governor is ondemand, powersave, conservative etc. then cpu clock may jump around
2014-05-03T05:52:12Z rszeno: probably accurate banchmarks is imposible
2014-05-03T05:52:54Z p_l: even then you have C-states to worry about
2014-05-03T05:53:06Z p_l: and inter-C-state latencies
2014-05-03T05:53:26Z rszeno: and I/O and current loading
2014-05-03T05:53:42Z rszeno: are too many factors
2014-05-03T05:54:14Z beach: It's not *that* important.  I just want to get a ballpark figure.  I just had some timing figures that were not reasonable, and I needed an explanation for them.
2014-05-03T05:55:10Z rszeno: this look like profiling?
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2014-05-03T05:56:43Z beach: I should tell you what I am up to.  Here is a sneak preview of the paper I am writing: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf
2014-05-03T05:56:50Z scoofy: in general, other processes running in a system may also alter benchmark figures.
2014-05-03T05:57:20Z beach: Comments are welcome, but if you have any, please send me email at robert.strandh@gmail.com
2014-05-03T05:57:46Z rszeno: ok, thank you, i will read this
2014-05-03T05:58:10Z beach: It is still incomplete.  In particular the second on previous work.
2014-05-03T05:58:36Z beach: And some things are wrong such as "Categories and Subject Descriptors".
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2014-05-03T06:00:00Z rszeno: no problem, i will ask if is a problem
2014-05-03T06:00:43Z beach: s/second on/section on/
2014-05-03T06:00:58Z beach is slowly becoming dyslexic. 
2014-05-03T06:02:37Z beach: Executive summary: I think the technique for generic dispatch I use in SICL will be 3-4 times as fast as the one used in SBCL.
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2014-05-03T06:30:50Z beach: Oh, one more thing about the paper.  If anyone has access to LispWorks, could that person please help me by running the test in the paper and sending me the result?
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2014-05-03T06:36:47Z splittist: beach: by 'as fast as' do you mean 'faster than'? I guess so, reading your draft. ('fast' should be 'faster' in the abstract)
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2014-05-03T06:37:27Z beach: No.  3 times faster is 4 times as fast.
2014-05-03T06:37:33Z beach: So I mean as fast.
2014-05-03T06:38:19Z beach: No?
2014-05-03T06:38:49Z Bike: shit, is that how words work? i've been saying some wrong things
2014-05-03T06:39:24Z beach: I could be wrong too, but I have given it a lot of thought.
2014-05-03T06:39:35Z beach: I mean, consider 10% faster.
2014-05-03T06:39:47Z beach: That is 1.1 times as fast.
2014-05-03T06:40:02Z beach: 100% faster is twice as fast.
2014-05-03T06:40:03Z beach: No?
2014-05-03T06:40:34Z Bike: guess i'll have to remember to say 'as fast'
2014-05-03T06:41:13Z Quadrescence: beach, what about "two times faster"? :)
2014-05-03T06:41:28Z beach: Quadrescence: That would be 3 times as fast.
2014-05-03T06:41:43Z Quadrescence: I'm not sure I agree with that. I agree with your previous things.
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2014-05-03T06:42:15Z Bike: i have made this program one times faster
2014-05-03T06:42:26Z beach: Quadrescence: So to you, "2 times" is not the same as "200%"?
2014-05-03T06:43:04Z beach: Bike: You would prefer to say 100% faster in that case.
2014-05-03T06:43:12Z Quadrescence: beach, I know what you're saying, but I think almost always, if someone were to say "two times faster", they probably mean the speed doubled.
2014-05-03T06:43:14Z beach: Bike: Or twice as fast.
2014-05-03T06:43:31Z beach: Quadrescence: I think they are wrong.  Sorry.
2014-05-03T06:43:37Z rszeno: beach, there is any way to get time accurate inside the loop before and after test, make difference and cumulate?
2014-05-03T06:44:26Z beach: rszeno: I think even asking for cpu time in the loop would bias the result.
2014-05-03T06:44:42Z beach: rszeno: There are so few cycles involved.
2014-05-03T06:45:11Z beach: rszeno: Plus, as I explain, it doesn't have to be that accurate at this point.
2014-05-03T06:46:06Z rszeno: i was thinking that this method will vary with the host, is in a way a profiler
2014-05-03T06:46:35Z Quadrescence: beach, Where's the paper?
2014-05-03T06:46:51Z beach: Quadrescence: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf
2014-05-03T06:47:01Z beach: Quadrescence: Not finished, very preliminary.
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2014-05-03T06:47:47Z beach: rszeno: Tell you what.  If you design a test that shows significantly different results that mine does, and you can argue that yours is more accurate, then I'll switch and acknowledge your contribution.
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2014-05-03T06:48:44Z rszeno: :)
2014-05-03T06:48:54Z beach: rszeno: As I explain in the paper, the test is not meant to be sufficient scientific proof that my technique is better, only that it is worth pursuing.
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2014-05-03T06:49:43Z beach: rszeno: Also, the test gives an unfair advantage to table-based methods, because everything will obviously be in the cache.
2014-05-03T06:50:38Z brucem: beach: are you strictly interested in CL generic dispatch for your paper or are you interested in other systems that also implement generic dispatch?
2014-05-03T06:50:41Z beach: The final proof (if the hypothesis turns out to be right) would have to include tests with cache misses, with several different argument classes etc.
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2014-05-03T06:51:37Z beach: brucem: Short answer: I don't care about others. :)  Longer answer: My technique needs the compiler at runtime, so may not be applicable to so many other systems.
2014-05-03T06:52:46Z brucem: beach: okay, won't bother with feedback then. :)
2014-05-03T06:52:55Z beach: Heh!
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2014-05-03T06:53:18Z brucem: I'll criticize after publication!
2014-05-03T06:53:22Z Bike: you're aware that SBCL PCL uses the compiler at runtime for a few things anyway, i hope
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2014-05-03T06:53:28Z beach: brucem: Fine! :)
2014-05-03T06:53:37Z beach: Bike: Oh yes.
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2014-05-03T07:18:12Z splittist: beach: I find the 'x times as fast' locution confusing for x > 1. 'Half as fast' strikes me as unambiguous. I think the confusion comes because 'speed' necessarily involves two quantities, time and something else. To be crystal clear, you could say 'x can perform twice as many calls as y in the same period', or 'x takes only half the time to perform the same
2014-05-03T07:18:12Z splittist: number of calls as y'.
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2014-05-03T07:19:20Z Bike: just use 'as fast', dang
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2014-05-03T07:22:25Z beach: splittist: OK, I'll give it some thought and figure out a better way of saying it.
2014-05-03T07:23:17Z beach: I maintain that the way I use it is the only logical one.  That, of course, is of no help if many people misunderstand it.
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2014-05-03T07:24:13Z splittist: beach: so to you 'twice as fast' means '3 times the velocity'? Or am I confusing that with 'two times faster'?
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2014-05-03T07:33:57Z beach: twice as fast is the same as two times as fast, which is 100% faster.
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2014-05-03T07:35:31Z beach: two times faster means three times as fast which means 3 times the velocity.
2014-05-03T07:37:36Z scoofy: i thought 'two times faster' means 100% faster.
2014-05-03T07:37:37Z beach: In general "x times as fast" = "x-1 times faster" = "100(x-1)% faster"
2014-05-03T07:37:48Z beach: scoofy: What made you think that?
2014-05-03T07:38:17Z scoofy: have you ever heard 'x is one times faster than y' ?
2014-05-03T07:38:26Z scoofy: or, 'x is one time faster than y'
2014-05-03T07:38:45Z beach: No.  In general, people would prefer to say 100% faster then.
2014-05-03T07:38:51Z scoofy: why?
2014-05-03T07:39:00Z beach: How would I know?
2014-05-03T07:39:28Z beach: scoofy: To you, does 0.9 faster mean that it is slower?
2014-05-03T07:39:51Z scoofy: possibly, depending on the context
2014-05-03T07:40:06Z beach: scoofy: Good for you.  I disagree.
2014-05-03T07:41:49Z scoofy: you should do a statistics, asking people what they understand when they read that
2014-05-03T07:42:09Z beach: No need.  I'll change it as splittist suggested.
2014-05-03T07:43:10Z scoofy: well, 'twice as fast' is more precise than 'two times faster' (which mathematically means, 200% faster)
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2014-05-03T07:45:07Z beach suggests we drop this topic and concentrate on the potential advantage of the dispatch method instead.
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2014-05-03T08:28:18Z splittist: beach: your paper doesn't really highlight how SICL's generic dispatch works. I kept looking for a paragraph like the second one in the PCL section. To continue the contrast, you might think about including a list like the ones you give in 2.1, but for SICL.
2014-05-03T08:28:21Z wbooze: morning
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2014-05-03T08:39:47Z beach: splittist: Yeah, I need to expand on the SICL method.  Thanks.
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2014-05-03T08:41:07Z beach: splittist: Good idea about including similar lists of operations.
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2014-05-03T08:43:47Z beach: Hello wbooze.
2014-05-03T08:44:18Z beach: splittist: Despite this lack of highlight, did you understand how it works?
2014-05-03T08:47:00Z wbooze: hello beach.
2014-05-03T08:47:29Z splittist: beach: not really, no. Your summary of PCL is so clear I almost felt I could implement it from your description. Apart from knowing that classes have unique numbers, and that generic functions have some sort of call history structure that involves these numbers, I couldn't really tell how it worked.
2014-05-03T08:47:47Z splittist: s/it/SICL/
2014-05-03T08:48:10Z beach: splittist: OK.  Definitely needs expanding on then. :)
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2014-05-03T08:49:07Z splittist: You can confidently use me as a lowest common denominator (or even low bound) reader (:
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2014-05-03T08:49:28Z beach: splittist: I think you might be exaggerating a bit.
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2014-05-03T08:49:48Z beach: But yeah, thanks.  I'll expand it and let you know when it is done.
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2014-05-03T09:09:53Z pjb: beach: larissa is a MacBookAir.  It was on power, but I wouldn't be surprised if the system didn't play trick with batch processes anyways.
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2014-05-03T09:39:03Z beach: pjb: The figure is unreasonably good for the clock speed you indicate.
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2014-05-03T09:39:36Z beach: pjb: It would mean that your SBCL on that machine is twice as fast as newer versions on Linux with the same processor.
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2014-05-03T09:40:39Z beach: splittist: New version of the paper at http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf whenever you have time to take a look.  In particular, let me know if my technique can be understood now.
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2014-05-03T09:43:04Z pjb: I'm running the test again on larissa.
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2014-05-03T09:45:39Z beach: pjb: I suspect the number you gave of the clock speed (1.7GHz) might be wrong.  So I would appreciate if you would check that for me as well.
2014-05-03T09:46:53Z beach does not know how to determine the real clock frequency on a Mac.
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2014-05-03T09:48:26Z beach: Oh, and again, if anyone here has access to LispWorks (preferably 64-bit) I would appreciate some help running the test.
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2014-05-03T09:54:52Z pjb: This is what is reported by the About this Mac dialog; processor 1.7 GHz Intel Core i7  and memor 8 GB 1600 MHz DDR3.
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2014-05-03T09:55:08Z beach: Strange.
2014-05-03T09:55:23Z stassats: and turbo?
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2014-05-03T09:56:48Z pjb: I get ccl: 21.161 s, clisp: 167 s, sbcl: 4.678 s.
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2014-05-03T09:57:32Z beach: OK.  Still strange.  Perhaps you can disassemble the function x and send the result to me by email?
2014-05-03T09:57:42Z pjb: Sure.
2014-05-03T09:58:05Z stassats: turbo should be about 3GHz
2014-05-03T09:58:19Z beach: If it is 3GHz, then I believe it.
2014-05-03T09:58:28Z beach: That would make perfect sense.
2014-05-03T09:58:44Z stassats: what cpu model is that?
2014-05-03T09:59:22Z beach: X86-64 Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4650U CPU @ 1.70GHz
2014-05-03T09:59:38Z stassats: 3.3 GHz
2014-05-03T09:59:55Z beach: stassats: The real clock frequency?
2014-05-03T10:00:03Z splittist: beach: very clear, now. Do you want to be more specific in the introduction about the magnitude of memory access vs register/constant instructions?
2014-05-03T10:00:20Z stassats: beach: for a single core running
2014-05-03T10:00:24Z stassats: full tilt
2014-05-03T10:00:27Z beach: splittist: Maybe.  I'll look into that.  Thanks for reading.
2014-05-03T10:00:38Z beach: stassats: OK.
2014-05-03T10:00:59Z stassats: see http://ark.intel.com/products/75114
2014-05-03T10:01:58Z pjb: beach: I've sent it.  The disassembly doesn't look surprising.  It's shorter for sbcl than for ccl.
2014-05-03T10:02:06Z beach: stassats: I see, yes.  The question I need answered is what real clock frequency pjb's machine is running at.
2014-05-03T10:02:24Z beach: pjb: Yes, but I need to compare it to what I get on my machine.
2014-05-03T10:02:48Z stassats: i expect Mac OS to be good enough to scale to 3.3 GHz upon load
2014-05-03T10:02:53Z beach: pjb: If it is similar, the only explanation is that your machine is really running at > 3GHz rather than 1.7.
2014-05-03T10:03:03Z beach: stassats: AH!!!!
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2014-05-03T10:03:24Z stassats: but for tests, i usually pin it to max frequency
2014-05-03T10:04:30Z beach: Yeah, sure.  For precise timing, that would be preferable.  I only need a ballpark figure, but this one is 100% faster than it ought to be, so I suspect you are right.
2014-05-03T10:04:59Z stassats: what about IPC?
2014-05-03T10:05:31Z beach: That would influence it negatively, no?
2014-05-03T10:05:51Z stassats: instructions per cycle? the more the faster
2014-05-03T10:06:03Z beach: Oh, sorry.
2014-05-03T10:06:22Z beach: Yes, but it doesn't matter, because I compare different implementations on the same processor.
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2014-05-03T10:06:30Z beach: .. or nearly the same.
2014-05-03T10:07:09Z beach: Again, I just need a ballpark figure.  And the one reported by pjb is < 5s, whereas all other data points I have suggest that it ought to be closer to 10.
2014-05-03T10:07:09Z stassats: i can test it on an arm cpu, if you're curious
2014-05-03T10:07:42Z beach: Someone did that already, and it is so bad I decided I won't use it :)
2014-05-03T10:07:49Z beach: SBCL on ARM that is.
2014-05-03T10:08:09Z beach: Now, if you have some other high-performance implementation on ARM, I am definitely interested.
2014-05-03T10:08:15Z stassats: on raspberry pi? i have a different cpu
2014-05-03T10:08:26Z beach: Sure, go ahead.
2014-05-03T10:08:30Z beach: Do you have the code?
2014-05-03T10:08:35Z stassats: nope
2014-05-03T10:09:03Z beach: hold on..
2014-05-03T10:09:30Z beach: OK, look in the paper: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf
2014-05-03T10:09:54Z beach: It's only a few lines, but if you prefer, I can give you the source.
2014-05-03T10:09:57Z pjb: I bought it in March.  Indeed, it looks like it has a Turbo at 3.3 GHz.  Nice. :-)
2014-05-03T10:10:09Z beach: pjb: Whew!  Thanks!
2014-05-03T10:10:19Z beach: I'll just adjust the numbers you sent.
2014-05-03T10:10:22Z beach: Thanks again so much!
2014-05-03T10:10:50Z pjb: On what conditions is the Turbo mode activated?
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2014-05-03T10:11:05Z pjb: It didn't fell like the Turbo was on for clisp :-)
2014-05-03T10:11:24Z pjb: So perhaps it needs specific conditions, like a tight loop with few memory accesses.
2014-05-03T10:11:25Z splittist: pjb: mysterious and unpredictable ones! And people complain about garbage collection...
2014-05-03T10:11:37Z pjb: In normal application code, it may not activate.
2014-05-03T10:11:39Z stassats: beach: is it the F function?
2014-05-03T10:11:47Z stassats: waiting for it to complete
2014-05-03T10:12:06Z stassats: pjb: on 100% cpu load, basically
2014-05-03T10:12:22Z stassats: beach: i get 62 seconds
2014-05-03T10:12:23Z pjb: Ok. So it should be safe enough to take it into account.
2014-05-03T10:13:00Z stassats: but for benchmarks, better pin it, or it will take time to ramp up and may throttle down during lulls
2014-05-03T10:13:21Z beach: stassats: Yes.
2014-05-03T10:13:36Z stassats: and SBCL is not yet fully optimized on ARM, it's quite new
2014-05-03T10:13:47Z stassats: and i have a 1200MHz cortex-a9 CPU
2014-05-03T10:13:49Z beach: Yes, that's why I think it is unfair to include it in my test.
2014-05-03T10:14:02Z beach: It will give the wrong impression.
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2014-05-03T10:15:29Z stassats: and indeed, sbcl didn't change between 1.1.6 and 1.1.13 to go from 45 on 3GHz to 11 on 1.8GHz
2014-05-03T10:16:19Z beach: stassats: Hmm.  So I should probably remove the 1.1.6 entry too.
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2014-05-03T10:19:49Z beach: I am very grateful to everyone for all the help.  Thanks!
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2014-05-03T10:21:22Z beach: stassats: I think it was nyef who asked me whether my technique could be implemented in SBCL, but I don't know enough about SBCL internals to answer that question.  Perhaps when you have time, you can read the second on my technique and let me know what to tell him.
2014-05-03T10:21:59Z beach: wow, s/second/section/
2014-05-03T10:22:01Z beach: again!
2014-05-03T10:22:20Z beach is definitely becoming dyslexic.
2014-05-03T10:22:55Z rszeno: beach, stassats is offline but probably will read the logs
2014-05-03T10:23:19Z beach: rszeno: Oh, missed that.  Thanks.
2014-05-03T10:23:30Z rszeno: welcome, :)
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2014-05-03T10:31:23Z wbooze: morning morning
2014-05-03T10:32:08Z beach: wbooze: Again?
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2014-05-03T11:17:38Z stassats: beach: benchmarking is hard, and things like cpu scaling make it harder
2014-05-03T11:17:59Z stassats: beach: the difference on ccl between linux and mac os x doesn't seem realistic either
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2014-05-03T11:20:33Z stassats: beach: how i would build that table, take a single machine, pin down the frequency, and compare the latest versions of implementations
2014-05-03T11:20:49Z stassats: the OS doesn't really matter here
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2014-05-03T12:03:53Z beach: stassats: You are right about CCL.
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2014-05-03T12:04:41Z beach: stassats: As I write in the paper, this is just to get ballpark figures.
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2014-05-03T12:05:13Z beach: stassats: When I write the final paper (when SICL exists), I need to be more careful about designing the benchmarks.
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2014-05-03T12:05:45Z beach: stassats: Did you see my question about implementing my technique in SBCL?
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2014-05-03T12:05:53Z stassats: i saw, but i haven't read the paper yet
2014-05-03T12:05:58Z beach: OK.
2014-05-03T12:06:04Z beach: At your leasure.
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2014-05-03T12:06:28Z beach: *leisure.
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2014-05-03T12:16:41Z beach: stassats: In the paper, should I refer to you as Stas Boukarev?  As I understand, "Stas" is a diminutive, no?
2014-05-03T12:17:29Z stassats: it is
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2014-05-03T12:17:43Z beach would not like for stassats to refer to him as "Bob".
2014-05-03T12:18:12Z beach: That's how you prefer it written?
2014-05-03T12:18:37Z stassats: well, yeah
2014-05-03T12:18:42Z beach: OK, great.
2014-05-03T12:19:00Z stassats: unless it's something official
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2014-05-03T12:22:11Z beach: Just acknowledgments in the paper.  Nothing official.
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2014-05-03T12:42:48Z dim: is there a way to know if a given buildapp binary was built against ccl or sbcl?
2014-05-03T12:43:03Z stassats: without running it?
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2014-05-03T12:44:54Z stassats: grep sbcl/ccl
2014-05-03T12:45:28Z stassats: prone to false positives
2014-05-03T12:46:10Z hitecnologys: Indeed. If one puts string that contains "sbcl" in binary compiled agains CCL, your approach will most probably fail.
2014-05-03T12:46:21Z hitecnologys: against*
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2014-05-03T12:49:30Z beach: stassats: I assumed that you would want to be acknowledged, but I guess I should ask.  So do you?
2014-05-03T12:49:57Z stassats: beach: i'm not sure for what, but i don't mind
2014-05-03T12:50:03Z beach: OK.
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2014-05-03T12:59:34Z stassats: dim: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142376
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2014-05-03T13:00:29Z dim: wow, ok
2014-05-03T13:01:23Z dim: the goal here was just to recompile buildapp itself when switching from a CL to another (with pgloader you can make CL=sbcl or make CL=ccl)
2014-05-03T13:01:39Z dim: actually I could use ./build/bin/buildapp.sbcl and .ccl
2014-05-03T13:02:34Z dim: anyways, thanks stassats
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2014-05-03T13:18:57Z beach: brucem: You are absolutely right.  I am now convinced that my technique is totally applicable to other languages as well.
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2014-05-03T13:31:16Z dim: how to ignore bindings in a loop form?
2014-05-03T13:31:35Z wbooze: ?
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2014-05-03T13:32:17Z wbooze: (declare (ignorable var)) ?
2014-05-03T13:32:21Z dim: (loop :for (nil . opts) :in ...)
2014-05-03T13:32:31Z dim: I don't know where to add the ignorable form in a loop
2014-05-03T13:32:43Z hitecnologys: You don't need to ignore it.
2014-05-03T13:32:48Z hitecnologys: LOOP won't mind.
2014-05-03T13:33:04Z dim: CCL complains
2014-05-03T13:33:15Z dim: inside an anonymous lambda form: Unused lexical variable NAME
2014-05-03T13:33:36Z hitecnologys: Then try putting declaration right before DO part.
2014-05-03T13:33:44Z hitecnologys: I mean right before actual body of DO part.
2014-05-03T13:33:47Z stassats: dim: what do you want to ignore?
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2014-05-03T13:34:00Z dim: well using nil made it here
2014-05-03T13:34:12Z dim:   (loop :for (nil . opts) :in (fields fixed) ...)
2014-05-03T13:34:15Z dim: that's what I now have
2014-05-03T13:34:23Z brucem: beach: I guess I should look more at it then ... perhaps Monday!
2014-05-03T13:34:28Z dim: nil used to be spelled name
2014-05-03T13:34:37Z stassats: dim: i see, i was confused, because i thought you asked about that form, and there was nothing to ignore
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2014-05-03T13:34:52Z dim: yeah, sorry
2014-05-03T13:35:05Z dim: I've asked to fast for help, found my training wheels in between
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2014-05-03T13:36:47Z dim: stassats: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/commit/e39788e5cd9ded75be31e3c33e9edf769cb232cb
2014-05-03T13:37:04Z dim: of course one of the changes is a genuine bug
2014-05-03T13:37:40Z stassats: (loop for c in columns collect nil) => (make-list (length columns))
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2014-05-03T13:38:50Z stassats: and keyworded loop statemnts => ugh!
2014-05-03T13:39:11Z dim: well I didn't use to do that, but I now prefer it that way
2014-05-03T13:39:28Z dim: I guess using KEYWORD package or your own is not much difference
2014-05-03T13:39:40Z dim: the main point is Editor hightlighting help
2014-05-03T13:39:44Z dim: I use loop too much, too
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2014-05-03T13:40:10Z stassats: your editor is not good then
2014-05-03T13:41:35Z stassats: i need to start working again on my "better" editor
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2014-05-03T13:43:38Z Guest90387: I don't remember who started me on keywords in loop macros
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2014-05-03T13:43:42Z wbooze: http://picpaste.com/pics/snap3-S0mwV7mK.1399124600.png
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2014-05-03T13:44:22Z stassats: indentation and lack of parenthesis already make loop statements stand out
2014-05-03T13:44:38Z stassats: i don't see the reason to turn it into a christmas tree any further
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2014-05-03T13:45:35Z stassats: and if you encounter code without keywords, are you unable to read it? that's why it should be editor support, not code-mangling
2014-05-03T13:46:19Z dim: it's just an helper
2014-05-03T13:46:25Z dim: I tend to write messy loop code I guess
2014-05-03T13:46:30Z dim: so that the helper is welcome
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2014-05-03T13:47:00Z dim: anyway it looks like a matter of preferences, right?
2014-05-03T13:47:04Z stassats: well, i always hate keyworded loop, makes it look un-english
2014-05-03T13:47:10Z dim: yeah ok ;-)
2014-05-03T13:47:27Z dim: what about using iterate then?
2014-05-03T13:47:39Z stassats: can't stand it either
2014-05-03T13:48:00Z stassats: shame it got some nice looping constructs
2014-05-03T13:48:24Z hitecnologys: Why don't you like iterate?
2014-05-03T13:48:35Z stassats: dim: and it is a matter of preference, but when i read your code, i can't exercise my preference
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2014-05-03T13:48:50Z stassats: but if your editor colored loop keywords, and mine didn't, then everyone would be happy
2014-05-03T13:49:08Z stassats: so, better editors, go-go
2014-05-03T13:49:18Z stassats: hitecnologys: syntax
2014-05-03T13:50:01Z dim: stassats: you certainly do have a point here, but it reminds me too much of the space vs tabs debate, in that I don't guess we're going to easity set anything
2014-05-03T13:50:04Z stassats: hitecnologys: loop makes it very clear where is its syntax, and where is the code
2014-05-03T13:50:20Z hitecnologys: stassats: I see. Well, I like normal LOOP syntax more too. However, interate indeed does have some neat stuff.
2014-05-03T13:50:21Z stassats: in iterate, i'm always lost, whether it's a function call or an iterate something
2014-05-03T13:50:24Z dim: even moreso when using keywords ;-)
2014-05-03T13:50:34Z wbooze: http://picpaste.com/pics/snap4-jGt9GJvb.1399125025.png
2014-05-03T13:50:54Z dim: wow that's just too much
2014-05-03T13:50:55Z dlowe: I like the series idea for controlling iteration a lot more
2014-05-03T13:51:00Z stassats: dim: it should be me saying "here, use this editor:", but i haven't written it yet
2014-05-03T13:51:14Z hitecnologys: stassats: I tend to wrap "do" part inside (after-each). This way I always know where the body is.
2014-05-03T13:51:19Z dim: so you have a plan for the week-end, that's cool
2014-05-03T13:51:20Z stassats: so i'm advocating hypothetically
2014-05-03T13:51:33Z beach: brucem: Yeah, it deserves a paper on its own.  But writing such a paper would require some serious fiddling with lesser languages and their implementations.
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2014-05-03T13:53:00Z beach: wbooze: Nice!
2014-05-03T13:53:37Z wbooze: \o|
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2014-05-03T13:53:50Z wbooze: :)
2014-05-03T13:53:53Z stassats: different colors for the same names?
2014-05-03T13:54:01Z hitecnologys: stassats: you were writing some kind of IDE, AFAIR. And I also remember you dumping it because it wasn't very good (the reason may not be accurate because of my poor memory). Why don't you start over then?
2014-05-03T13:54:04Z wbooze: yes i didn't fix that yet.....
2014-05-03T13:54:18Z stassats: hitecnologys: i didn't dump it
2014-05-03T13:54:32Z hitecnologys: stassats: ah, I see. Something is wrong with my memory then.
2014-05-03T13:54:39Z stassats: there's just too much cool things to work on, and there's just so much time
2014-05-03T13:54:47Z beach: brucem: With a static language, the technique would be simpler.  Also, but clever depth-first compile-time numbering of the classes, dispatch time could be optimized.
2014-05-03T13:55:47Z stassats: hitecnologys: i need to get it into the state where i actually use it full-time
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2014-05-03T13:55:55Z beach: s/Also but/Also with/
2014-05-03T13:56:00Z stassats: then i will get annoyed with things and fix them faster
2014-05-03T13:56:07Z stassats: like was the case with slime
2014-05-03T13:56:18Z hitecnologys: stassats: I see.
2014-05-03T13:56:32Z hitecnologys: stassats: makes sense to me.
2014-05-03T13:58:21Z brucem: beach: might be worth taking a look ... I'm not thrilled with our dispatch times.
2014-05-03T13:58:39Z beach: brucem: "our"?
2014-05-03T13:58:40Z dim: stassats: so if you want another perf challenge, it seems that here pgloader is consistently faster using CCL when compared to using SBCL
2014-05-03T13:58:52Z brucem: beach: Open Dylan
2014-05-03T13:59:07Z stassats: dim: you shared that, but i can't measure it
2014-05-03T13:59:14Z beach: brucem: Ah, OK.  But that would be similar to CL, right?
2014-05-03T13:59:19Z stassats: i don't really want to deal with RDBMSes
2014-05-03T13:59:26Z brucem: beach: our dispatch mechanism differs a lot from how people write about generic dispatch in academic papers ...
2014-05-03T13:59:42Z brucem: beach: somewhat similar, somewhat different ... we can be a bit more static.
2014-05-03T14:00:00Z beach: brucem: I see.  What do you do (in a few words)?
2014-05-03T14:00:12Z beach: brucem: I mean, how does the current mechanism work?
2014-05-03T14:00:27Z dim: stassats: well, it appears to be true when loading CSV data too, so that the dependencies required to run the tests are "only" pgloader + csv files + postgresql
2014-05-03T14:00:47Z stassats: too much dependencies for me
2014-05-03T14:01:04Z stassats: but string i/o may use an improvement in SBCL
2014-05-03T14:01:29Z brucem: beach: there's a dispatch engine node per argument ... these engine nodes alter strategy based on monomorphic, polymorphic, megamorphic, whether or not there is an eql specializer, etc.
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2014-05-03T14:02:31Z beach: brucem: Is this documented somewhere?
2014-05-03T14:02:35Z brucem: beach: monomorphic engine node just contains a single pointer to the next engine node or the function (depending on where it is in the chain of per-argument engine nodes). polymorphic does a linear lookup. megamorphic does a hash lookup. eql specializers use if/then nodes ...
2014-05-03T14:02:49Z brucem: beach: I'm looking for hte paper that describes it ... and some extensions that aren't in production.
2014-05-03T14:03:18Z beach: Thanks.
2014-05-03T14:03:49Z brucem: beach: http://people.csail.mit.edu/jrb/Projects/pd.pdf describes some of what exists in production and some of what is there, but not enabled because we're all afraid of jrb's unfinished code.
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2014-05-03T14:04:28Z beach: brucem: Great!  I'll read it (but not right now).
2014-05-03T14:05:05Z brucem: beach: up through section 6 describes current ... section 6 is the disabled code.
2014-05-03T14:05:35Z beach: brucem: Good to know.  I actually already had this paper queued up for reading.
2014-05-03T14:06:17Z brucem: beach: a typical academic paper on the subject would be the one from Eric Kidd ...http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/reports/TR2001-404.pdf
2014-05-03T14:06:34Z beach: Got that one already as well.
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2014-05-03T14:07:08Z beach: Good to know I didn't miss anything in my research :)
2014-05-03T14:07:37Z brucem: beach: well, the Julia people haven't bothered to write about what they do (yet?)
2014-05-03T14:08:04Z beach: brucem: And we think what they do is good?
2014-05-03T14:08:31Z brucem: beach: dunno. I'm not a fan of how the people behind Julia behave overall.
2014-05-03T14:08:50Z beach: brucem: They might still have valid techniques.
2014-05-03T14:08:55Z brucem: I've been too busy to do any comparisons in performance.
2014-05-03T14:08:59Z beach: brucem: Can Open Dylan have obsolete instances the way CL can?
2014-05-03T14:09:51Z brucem: beach: according to the DRM strictly, no. However, I've seen some support for it in the implementation, but no idea of the status.
2014-05-03T14:10:37Z beach: I see.  Doesn't really matter.  It is practically free both with the PCL technique and with mine.
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2014-05-03T14:14:09Z beach: brucem: [reading about Julia & Open Dylan] Looks like there is more work to be done, and more papers to write. :)
2014-05-03T14:14:53Z brucem: beach: well, the pd.pdf above was never completed even .... it has a lot of "<insert data here>" remarks. :(
2014-05-03T14:15:34Z beach: brucem: OK, I'll remember that when reading it.
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2014-05-03T15:55:11Z wbooze: hmm seems like i'll need memoize......
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2014-05-03T17:09:44Z kuanyui: Just curious: any simple way to insert repeated N elements into a list? for example, add 3 t into a list : '(t t t)
2014-05-03T17:10:33Z pjb: (make-list 3 :initial-element t)
2014-05-03T17:11:41Z kuanyui: Can it insert elements into an existed list?
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2014-05-03T17:12:40Z dlowe: (append (make-list 3 :initial-element t) existing-list)
2014-05-03T17:12:55Z kuanyui: Thank you very much!
2014-05-03T17:12:57Z pjb: kuanyui: try: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence:replace-subseq (make-list 3 :initial-element t) (list 1 2 3) 1 1)
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2014-05-03T18:20:30Z g3orge: hey people, I have this function to move a head of list to another list: http://sprunge.us/BXJb When I use its main clause (push (pop one) other) of course it's working, but when trying to do it with the function it just returns the resulting function and the changes don't stick afterwards.
2014-05-03T18:21:04Z g3orge: do I have to use setf or something, cause I thought I can have a function have side-effects in CL
2014-05-03T18:21:40Z Bike: push operates on the variable, to, which is lexically scoped within the function
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2014-05-03T18:23:03Z Bike: (push (pop from) to) is just (setf to (cons (pop from) to)), so you're just changing the variable, which is local to the function.
2014-05-03T18:23:22Z g3orge: so CL is creating another copy of my list in every function call?
2014-05-03T18:23:29Z nyef: Ah, the classic dragon of understanding pass-by-value vs. pass-by-reference vs. which values ARE references. At least someone called g3orge should be well suited to dragon-slaying. (-:
2014-05-03T18:23:30Z Bike: no
2014-05-03T18:23:44Z Bike: you're not actually touching memory with the push
2014-05-03T18:24:25Z Bike: do you know C? this is something like declaring a pointer in the function scope, and setting it to point to a linked list node that points to the originally passed list
2014-05-03T18:24:26Z g3orge: why is that though?
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2014-05-03T18:24:55Z Bike: because that's not what push does.
2014-05-03T18:25:51Z nyef: This is asked often enough that we should produce a web page about it that we can have minion direct people to.
2014-05-03T18:26:42Z nyef: I'm not currently clear-headed enough to explain the issue properly, however. /-:
2014-05-03T18:26:55Z Bike: g3orge: basically, push and pop do side effects, but on variables, not lists. and since the variables are local to the function...
2014-05-03T18:27:10Z Bike: altering a list would be something like (setf (cdr foo) ...), that actually changes where a linked list node is pointing to
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2014-05-03T18:27:54Z g3orge: oh ok, so push is a macro that does that etc, but how is 'to' different inside the function, if it isn't another copy of it?
2014-05-03T18:28:18Z nyef: It's a copy of the pointer to the CONS cell in the list.
2014-05-03T18:28:28Z nyef: The FIRST cons cell in the list.
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2014-05-03T18:29:28Z nyef: So because you mutate the local copy of the pointer, rather than the CONS cell being pointed to, you don't see the effect outside of your function.
2014-05-03T18:29:44Z nyef: I haven't even looked at your source, but the question-pattern is familiar.
2014-05-03T18:30:40Z g3orge: ok, so how do I actually change the list..?
2014-05-03T18:31:17Z Bike: you don't actually want to change the list in this case, just the variable bindings (pointers)
2014-05-03T18:32:06Z ggole: One option is to wrap the lists in, say, a defstruct
2014-05-03T18:32:06Z Bike: i suppose a macro would be the thing, egh.
2014-05-03T18:32:22Z ggole: The struct could be passed around and the parts mutated, giving the effect you want
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2014-05-03T18:33:22Z g3orge: lol, I'm new to lisp, I don't even know what a defstruct is.
2014-05-03T18:33:29Z g3orge: but I guess I can write a macro
2014-05-03T18:33:54Z ggole: It's basically a record.
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2014-05-03T18:34:14Z fifosine: Does anyone know of any lisp programs that allow the source code to be modified from within the program and the changes hotswapper?
2014-05-03T18:34:18Z fifosine: hotswapped*
2014-05-03T18:34:46Z Bike: not the source code, but you can change behavior as you go easily
2014-05-03T18:36:56Z fifosine: Bike: is editing the source not possible?
2014-05-03T18:37:30Z Bike: of course it's possible, you're just writing a file, it's just not a common thing to do.
2014-05-03T18:38:09Z splittist: fifosine: pining for Interlisp?
2014-05-03T18:38:20Z fifosine: splittist: What is that?
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2014-05-03T18:39:24Z nyef: fifosine: I can name a couple of lisp programs in which you can modify the program source and apply the changes immediately to the running system. They're all EMACS clones.
2014-05-03T18:39:51Z fifosine: nyef: Yes, please name them!
2014-05-03T18:40:05Z nyef: climacs and phemlock.
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2014-05-03T18:40:12Z nyef: (portable-hemlock)
2014-05-03T18:40:58Z nyef: Really, though, the ability to redefine your text editor on the fly is available in EMACS itself, though EMACS has its own (un-common) dialect of Lisp.
2014-05-03T18:41:50Z fifosine: nyef: Just to be clear: within emacs, I can open an emacs source file, edit it, save it, and my edits will take effect on-save?
2014-05-03T18:42:04Z ggole: Not on save, upon evalling the code
2014-05-03T18:42:06Z nyef: No, there's an explicit load operation required.
2014-05-03T18:42:25Z Bike: you could define a save-and-load operation yourself, of course.
2014-05-03T18:42:27Z fifosine: what's that load called?  and are there any articles / blog posts about this feature?
2014-05-03T18:42:34Z ggole: You could set up a hook to do it automatically, I suppose.
2014-05-03T18:43:00Z Bike: it's uh, M-x load-file. it's not like... weird or novel.
2014-05-03T18:44:00Z fifosine: Within the context of emacs it's not novel, but when talking about programs in general I think it is.  The ability from within a program, edit its source and see it's changes is pretty cool.
2014-05-03T18:44:03Z splittist: fifosine: back in the day there were two (not only two, but in this story) approaches to lisp systems. The people on the east coast had small computers, concentrated on compiler bumming, and used source files. The people on the west coast had bigger computers, concentrated on applications.
2014-05-03T18:44:17Z ggole: fifosine: well, most programs are not also editors.
2014-05-03T18:44:28Z nyef: It's been years since I started drinking alcoholic beverages. Today is the first day that I managed to soak a laptop. Most noticeable difference so far is that the fan spun down for a little bit.
2014-05-03T18:44:43Z Bike: mm, liquid cooling, very useful
2014-05-03T18:44:55Z ggole: It's fairly common for applications to be updatable though.
2014-05-03T18:45:05Z nyef: And the reason for the spill is that I hit my glass with the back of my chair when I spun around to focus on something else.
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2014-05-03T18:45:33Z fifosine: ggole: But not from within the context of the program
2014-05-03T18:45:36Z splittist: The people on the east coast out-maneuvered the people on the west coast during the common lisp standardisation process. Ironically, by this time they had the big computers.
2014-05-03T18:46:24Z ggole: fifosine: even from within a program it isn't exactly rare to be able to change various bits
2014-05-03T18:46:52Z fifosine: ggole: I think it's rare.  Can you point to more examples where this is possible?
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2014-05-03T18:47:37Z ggole: Take quake for example: it has a primitive little command interpreter built-in that you can manipulate with the console
2014-05-03T18:48:12Z fifosine: ggole: That's cool.  Can you explain a little more?  I've never heard of that.
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2014-05-03T18:48:24Z ggole: Of course this is a pale shadow of interactivity compared to something like emacs, but the idea is not really that different
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2014-05-03T18:49:21Z p_l: fifosine: significant amounts of gamelogic are often programmed in special-purpose language or an embedded scripting engine, plus for debugging purposes there are often various tools (hidden or not) to inspect and modify state
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2014-05-03T18:49:46Z ggole: fifosine: then there are things like spreadsheets, etc, which often come with scripting hooks
2014-05-03T18:50:09Z ggole: And of course shells
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2014-05-03T18:50:25Z splittist: The people on the west coast had been used to dealing with source code structure that the system would maintain for them - no files involved. The people on the east coast eventually retrofitted the file-based system to do many of the same things.
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2014-05-03T18:51:21Z g3orge: ok I wrote a macro and it works. thanks guys
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2014-05-03T18:52:41Z splittist: This was the magical world of Symbolics. But it was doomed. The orken peoples of New Jersey overran the land with C and Unix, and the beauty of the Lisp Machine was lost. Since that time the people of Common Lisp-land have tried to recapture some of what was possible. Slime hints at this. But there is much that seems lost forever.
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2014-05-03T18:54:48Z stassats: it's just waiting to be reinvented
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2014-05-03T18:56:35Z fifosine: ggole: Is the ability to edit source of the current running process and then load it— is that hotswapping?
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2014-05-03T18:58:21Z ggole: More or less - there's also the connotation that existing code will correctly reference the new version of a redefined construct
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2014-05-03T19:59:49Z macdice is always amazed that redefining functions in running systems with many threads just works without complications
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2014-05-03T20:26:58Z tolk: hello. does ECL have a new maintainer? just curious about ECL's status.
2014-05-03T20:27:18Z H4ns: nobody has stepped up to take over yet.
2014-05-03T20:27:55Z H4ns: i do remember that there was someone expressing interest to become maintainer in this channel, but i don't think they've really done it.
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2014-05-03T20:34:39Z stassats: flip214 did step up some
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2014-05-03T21:10:34Z drmeister: Anyone know of any efficient backquote processing code written in C or C++ for Common Lisp - I translated mine from the appendix of Guy Steele's book into C++ by hand.  It's really, really slow.
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2014-05-03T21:11:12Z Bike: you're writing reader macros in C?
2014-05-03T21:11:21Z drmeister: And Fare tells me that code has a bug and I almost certainly translated the bug as well.
2014-05-03T21:11:43Z drmeister: I have a Common Lisp interpreter written in C++.   I wrote backquote processing in C++.
2014-05-03T21:11:52Z drmeister: It's for bootstrapping.
2014-05-03T21:12:26Z drmeister: I'm bootstrapping with garbage collection and it's a whole new experience of slowness.
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2014-05-03T21:12:45Z Bike: i woulda thought you'd get the lisp reader up asap
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2014-05-03T21:13:19Z drmeister: A slow, non-production, debugging, non-moving garbage collector/allocator with a really slow implementation of backquote processor in C++.   Bleh.
2014-05-03T21:13:33Z drmeister: The lisp reader isn't the problem.  It's the backquote processor.
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2014-05-03T23:29:58Z Xach: https://github.com/marg-do/liserve is not as exciting as i hoped from the title & description
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2014-05-04T00:10:51Z FareTower: in the DIY genre, the empty program is just as impressive
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2014-05-04T00:48:58Z rk[1]: hello lispers.
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2014-05-04T00:49:55Z rk[1]: for function open, does flag :if-does-not-exist :create, create the directory structure as well if it does not exist?
2014-05-04T00:50:52Z rk[1]: i know there is the function ensure-directories-exist; if the previous question is 'nil, then is it customary in this situation to just call this function prior to open?
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2014-05-04T01:13:46Z Bike: rk[1]: i don't think it creates the directory structure and i've never used e-d-e.
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2014-05-04T01:21:01Z rk[1]: Bike: aye aye.
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2014-05-04T01:29:34Z speckle: hi, what's the lowest-latency garbage collector for lisp? is there something good enough for action games?
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2014-05-04T01:31:36Z speckle: alternatively, I'm also looking at this; anyone used it? http://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/
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2014-05-04T01:33:56Z Xach: I've used movitz a bit.
2014-05-04T01:34:18Z speckle: how is it? :)
2014-05-04T01:34:38Z Xach: speckle: there are a few people who work on and discuss writing games in lisp, in (i think) #lispgames. Maybe they can tell you what they know on the topic of GC.
2014-05-04T01:34:53Z Xach: speckle: it's neat. it doesn't do much, but it's neat.
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2014-05-04T01:36:41Z speckle: oh, oops, thanks Xach
2014-05-04T01:36:45Z speckle: what do you mean it doesn't do much?
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2014-05-04T01:40:36Z Xach: I mean that it boots, and you can evaluate some expressions, but it is not complete enough to load existing libraries and use normal development tools like slime.
2014-05-04T01:40:47Z Xach: Last I checked, anyway. And it is not under active development.
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2014-05-04T01:45:05Z Fare: speckle, if you run abcl on an azul jvm, you'll have the lowest latency GC
2014-05-04T01:45:23Z Fare: not that I particularly recommend the setup, of course
2014-05-04T01:46:40Z speckle: I've always wondered about Azul, but it seems shrouded in a veil of secrecy which requires massive cash to pierce
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2014-05-04T01:47:50Z speckle: I see, thanks Xach!  I guess it's a "start" but requires major work to be usable for applications that pull in libraries
2014-05-04T01:48:46Z speckle: Fare, how much do you know about Azul?
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2014-05-04T01:56:06Z spintronic: where do you guys think would be a good place to ask some basic questions about linear temporal logic?
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2014-05-04T02:02:37Z JuanDaugherty: ##prolog is only thing I can think of but don't expect much
2014-05-04T02:03:38Z JuanDaugherty: not the kind of thing that would have a much better irc channel match
2014-05-04T02:05:09Z JuanDaugherty: the question of temporal logics has come up there more than once
2014-05-04T02:06:41Z JuanDaugherty: people will talk about fluent calc and the like here or the main haskell room and other such venues
2014-05-04T02:06:47Z Bike: you might try #esoteric, if you don't mind a billion digressions
2014-05-04T02:07:36Z speckle: would a comp sci channel work?
2014-05-04T02:07:58Z JuanDaugherty: more of groups kind of thing
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2014-05-04T02:10:32Z spintronic: Thanks guys. I'm trying #logic right now.
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2014-05-04T02:12:12Z JuanDaugherty: sorry thought I was in haskell-blah
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2014-05-04T02:26:43Z JuanDaugherty: cl-mpi was once in ql but was dropped?
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2014-05-04T03:55:35Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-05-04T04:28:06Z spintronic: good evening!
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2014-05-04T04:29:11Z beach: Hello spintronic.
2014-05-04T04:30:13Z spintronic: beach: you wouldn't happen to know something about linear temporal logic? Like the stuff described in chapter 12 of this book: http://leeseshia.org/
2014-05-04T04:31:05Z beach: I am afraid I don't.  Sorry.
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2014-05-04T05:47:10Z beach: Can someone walk me through the advantages of class sealing?
2014-05-04T05:49:23Z Bike: it means you can do a lot of dispatch statically, right?
2014-05-04T05:49:48Z beach: Not sure.  That's why I need the walk-through.
2014-05-04T05:50:11Z p_l: I'm not the best to answer that, but essentially, it gives you two things: ABI stability  and easier optimization, both coming from immutability of the classes (and at least in theory, immutability of their ancestry)
2014-05-04T05:50:45Z beach: I thought it meant you can not create subclasses.
2014-05-04T05:52:05Z p_l: that too
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2014-05-04T05:52:24Z Bike: well i mean, for example, NUMBER is generally sealed, so if we imagine + and so on are generic we get the ability to just use fixnum-+ and such in the code
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2014-05-04T05:53:20Z p_l: since there won't be subclasses, when running optimizer you have knowledge of all methods that could happen in various points of code. and thus possibly completely move computation of applicable method to compile time
2014-05-04T05:53:57Z beach: Bike: OK.  I think I understand sealing of some built-in classes, because instances may be represented in a way that makes subclassing impossible.  What about sealing as a feature proposed to the programmer?
2014-05-04T05:54:22Z Bike: representation doesn't matter to what i said, i think
2014-05-04T05:54:39Z Bike: i think i remember a paper about this
2014-05-04T05:54:55Z p_l: beach: Imagine sealing all of CLOS when preparing image for end-user distribution, precomputing as much of dispatch as possible
2014-05-04T05:55:01Z beach: p_l: So you are saying class sealing implies that no method specializing on that class could be added later on any generic function?
2014-05-04T05:56:04Z p_l: that's a possible form of sealing, in my understanding
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2014-05-04T05:56:20Z Bike: Kernel cites Morris, "Types Are Not Sets", for its encapsulation type thingies, which are somewhat sealed
2014-05-04T05:56:41Z beach: p_l: I guess the term was invented in a context where adding a method would require subclassing.
2014-05-04T05:56:43Z p_l: beach: another avenue for optimization is turning all slot accesses into essentially accesses to structure member
2014-05-04T05:56:46Z Bike: oh and there's "A Bisimulation for Dynamic Sealing" by Pierce, i bet that's a good one
2014-05-04T05:58:13Z beach: Bike: Great.  I'll get it.  Thanks.
2014-05-04T05:59:00Z beach: p_l: Yes, I can see that.  Good!
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2014-05-04T06:02:27Z p_l: and yeah, probably significant amount of terminology like "sealed" is going to come from languages that keep data and methods together
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2014-05-04T06:19:49Z beach: Bike: You are right, representation does not matter to what you said.  But I can see why I am not allowed to create a subclass of FIXNUM, because of the way it is represented.  What I am interested in is the performance advantages of allowing a programmer to seal a standard class.
2014-05-04T06:20:07Z beach: This is all in the context of my paper on generic dispatch.
2014-05-04T06:20:31Z Bike: well i mean, you can imagine analogous things, surely? like making a matrix standard-class and wanting to seal it for various dispatching
2014-05-04T06:21:31Z beach: Bike: Yes, I can imagine that.  Except that the method I propose in the paper is so cheap that I need to know whether sealing is still advantageous for performance reasons in that context.
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2014-05-04T06:21:48Z Bike: i suppose that's where testing comes in :P
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2014-05-04T06:23:01Z beach: Well, unless I take advantage of sealing somehow for optimization, tests will not give me any additional information.  So I need to know what kind of additional optimizations sealing can permit.
2014-05-04T06:23:26Z Bike: static dispatch?
2014-05-04T06:23:54Z p_l: beach: well, advantages in inlined slot accesses for cases where you have lot of related-but-different classes implementing some graph, for example?
2014-05-04T06:24:07Z beach: Bike: Possibly, yes.
2014-05-04T06:24:37Z beach: p_l: Yes, inlined slot access is definitely a candidate.
2014-05-04T06:24:51Z p_l: as for ABI - you might want to stop anyone from messing with a class when it represents something external to Lisp image (mmap()ed data?), though I guess changing a metaclass should be enough
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2014-05-04T06:25:31Z beach: p_l: Yes, I can understand the safety argument.  Right now I am interested in performance.
2014-05-04T06:28:05Z erikc: beach: sealing can let you use constant time table dispatch
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2014-05-04T06:28:32Z beach: erikc: Except my technique is faster than constant-time table dispatch :)
2014-05-04T06:29:13Z erikc: your technique is faster than loading an address and branching there?
2014-05-04T06:29:23Z beach: erikc: Furthermore, you can still do that without sealing as long as you recompute the tables when the class hierarchy changes.
2014-05-04T06:29:35Z beach: erikc: Yes.
2014-05-04T06:32:01Z beach: erikc: table-based methods are impractical if every generic function has to have an n-dimensional matrix of all the classes, so some compression technique is required.  Either hashing like PCL does, or some other technique that requires several memory accesses.
2014-05-04T06:32:44Z beach: erikc: And my technique does not require any memory access, except for figuring out the classes of the arguments.
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2014-05-04T06:34:37Z erikc: what was the link to your paper, i think i  saw it go by yesterday
2014-05-04T06:35:15Z beach: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf
2014-05-04T06:35:23Z beach: Still not finished.
2014-05-04T06:35:30Z beach: But the essence is in there.
2014-05-04T06:36:29Z erikc: there isnt really anything sealing lets you do that a sufficiently smart JIT compiler couldnt do
2014-05-04T06:36:55Z beach: erikc: Ah!  That's exactly what I wanted to hear! :)
2014-05-04T06:37:29Z erikc: but sealing is a nice lever for guaranteeing performance characteristics
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2014-05-04T06:38:09Z beach: OK, I can perhaps imagine that.
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2014-05-04T06:38:39Z Krystof: beach: your paper is interesting.  It's too early in the morning for me to be sure about this, but there might be a flaw in your SICL simulated slot reader
2014-05-04T06:38:55Z beach: Krystof: I am all ears.
2014-05-04T06:39:19Z Krystof: I think you need to check at every call whether the instance that you are accessing is non-obsolete
2014-05-04T06:39:50Z Krystof: in your DEFUN Y, you do (if (= stamp 10) ...)
2014-05-04T06:40:00Z beach: Krystof: No, in fact I don't.  The stamp /= the class number when a class has been updated, so dispatch will fail in the same way as PCL dispatch will fail.
2014-05-04T06:40:18Z Krystof: which checks whether the instance that you've been given matches the class number at the time of the slot accessor definition
2014-05-04T06:40:29Z beach: Yes.
2014-05-04T06:40:56Z Krystof: so, if you redefine the class, new instances get a higher stamp and that gets caught
2014-05-04T06:41:03Z beach: Yes.
2014-05-04T06:41:17Z Krystof: but if you have an old instance and you pass it to Y, that obsolescence is not caught
2014-05-04T06:41:20Z beach: Or at least a stamp that is nowhere used.  Higher is not important.
2014-05-04T06:41:43Z beach: Krystof: Yes, it's a simulation.  Y would no longer exist if class 10 were updated.
2014-05-04T06:41:50Z beach: So it would be caught by the error.
2014-05-04T06:42:10Z Krystof: what's the mechanism for redefining Y on class 10 redefinition?
2014-05-04T06:42:48Z beach: Invalidate the entries in the call history.  Set the discriminating function to "recompute"  or to a new one computed from the new call history.
2014-05-04T06:43:12Z Krystof: ah, right, end of section 3
2014-05-04T06:43:16Z beach: Yes.
2014-05-04T06:43:38Z beach: BTW, it is easy to get lazy discriminating functions as you have suggested.
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2014-05-04T06:43:49Z beach: Just set it to "recompute" when the class changes.
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2014-05-04T06:44:14Z beach: Er, that should be when a method is added to a GF.
2014-05-04T06:44:27Z Krystof: I think it's worth making clear that there's a potential unbounded cost to class redefinition uner your scheme, because that's a clear difference between it and PCL
2014-05-04T06:44:58Z beach: Hmm.  It ought to be the same.
2014-05-04T06:45:19Z beach: PCL invalidates class wrappers.  I invalidate stamps.
2014-05-04T06:45:23Z beach: No?
2014-05-04T06:45:32Z Krystof: PCL invalidates class wrappers but not actively
2014-05-04T06:45:43Z Krystof: the wrapper (a single object) is invalidated
2014-05-04T06:46:12Z Krystof: you remove entries from an unbounded number of generic function call histories
2014-05-04T06:46:16Z beach: After redefinition, the hash lookup must fail for an obsolete wrapper, no?
2014-05-04T06:46:35Z Krystof: yes, but that happens incrementally, when those generic functions are called
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2014-05-04T06:47:13Z beach: If so, then the GF must contain a test somehow.
2014-05-04T06:47:18Z beach: Or am I missing something?
2014-05-04T06:47:43Z Krystof: the obsolete wrappers get given hash values of 0, which in the cache lookup never match
2014-05-04T06:47:54Z beach: Oh, OK.  Got it.
2014-05-04T06:47:58Z Krystof: so instances with those wrappers trap
2014-05-04T06:47:59Z beach: Yes, I should point this out.
2014-05-04T06:48:12Z beach: Yes, yes.  I understand.
2014-05-04T06:48:14Z Krystof: ok
2014-05-04T06:48:42Z Krystof: good stuff
2014-05-04T06:48:46Z beach: Thanks!
2014-05-04T06:49:11Z beach: ... and VERY FAST! :)
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2014-05-04T06:50:03Z beach: Krystof: Did you see my question to stassats about implementing it for SBCL?
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2014-05-04T06:50:15Z beach: It was nyef who asked, and I didn't know the answer.
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2014-05-04T06:51:16Z beach: I don't know enough about SBCL internals to have an opinion.
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2014-05-04T07:14:44Z erikc: beach: so you’re basically trading off dcache misses for icache misses + branch mispredictions
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2014-05-04T07:18:30Z beach: erikc: Yes, you can put it that way.
2014-05-04T07:20:56Z beach: Krystof: So does the PCL wrapper-invalidation method require hash seeds to be odd?  Otherwise, taking the hash seed modulo 2^k might yield 0.
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2014-05-04T07:23:22Z erikc: would be interesting to see how many specializations you can have before table lookups win, whether its more than any program would likely have
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2014-05-04T07:23:58Z beach: That is what I am betting, though even if it is not true, the vast majority of generic functions will have few specializations.
2014-05-04T07:24:24Z beach: Nothing prevents me from switching to table-based lookup if too many comparisons are required.
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2014-05-04T07:27:05Z beach: And like I said, table lookup, while constant-time, in practice requires compression of the tables, so more computation and more memory accesses are required.
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2014-05-04T07:27:16Z pjb: minion: memo for g3orge: you may want to read https://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#Lisp-Paradoxes in particular: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/-dL9iqvBWgk/uhevTzXjpmEJ
2014-05-04T07:27:16Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell g3orge when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-05-04T07:28:36Z Bike: hm, firefox says informatigo has a bad cert
2014-05-04T07:29:05Z beach: Yes, I get the same.
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2014-05-04T07:30:43Z pjb: minion: memo for g3orge: note that you should better write a function that returns your prepended list rather than a macro, and write (setf acc (prepend acc new-head)); If you want you can (define-modify-macro prependf (tail new-head)  prepend) so you may write (prependf acc new-head).  cf. com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.list:prepend and prependf.
2014-05-04T07:30:43Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell g3orge when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-05-04T07:31:07Z pjb: I've not renewed it since heartbleed.
2014-05-04T07:31:15Z pjb: Perhaps I should remove it entirely.
2014-05-04T07:32:04Z pjb: Anyways, it's a cert created by an Israelian company for $free.  I'd trust it even less than a cert created by a USA company…
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2014-05-04T08:24:42Z pjb: minion: memo for fifosine: ASDF does that, hotswapping a new version when it finds an old one.
2014-05-04T08:24:42Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell fifosine when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-05-04T08:26:06Z beach: pjb: Busy reading the logs I see.
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2014-05-04T08:27:42Z pjb: Yep.  Since those poor people didn't get any (good) answers…
2014-05-04T08:30:34Z splittist: I thought my was entertaining, at least (:
2014-05-04T08:30:43Z pjb: ggole: most programs are also text editor.  Quick, name one (interactive) program that doesn't let you edit input text?
2014-05-04T08:31:47Z splittist: A teleconferencing system.
2014-05-04T08:31:53Z ggole: Typing text into a dialog doesn't make a text editor
2014-05-04T08:32:12Z ggole: (And all of the editing logic is pulled out into libraries anyway.)
2014-05-04T08:32:17Z Krystof: beach: there's an explicit test for 0 before reducing mod size-of-cache
2014-05-04T08:33:03Z beach: AHA!  Another test!
2014-05-04T08:33:06Z beach: :)
2014-05-04T08:33:32Z Krystof: also, you might not know (because it's not mentioned in Kizcales & Rodruigez) that PCL also has "dispatch" generic functions which are much closer to your scheme
2014-05-04T08:33:55Z beach: Right, I haven't read the code.
2014-05-04T08:34:04Z beach: What do they do?
2014-05-04T08:34:06Z Krystof: implemented with typep tests rather than number comparisons
2014-05-04T08:34:12Z beach: Ouch!
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2014-05-04T08:34:21Z beach: But I'll add it to the paper.
2014-05-04T08:34:32Z Krystof: but the flip side is that they're used when most of the classes involved are built-in classes, so the typep tests can be efficient
2014-05-04T08:34:44Z beach: Sure.
2014-05-04T08:34:59Z beach: Thanks for letting me know.  I will definitely document it.
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2014-05-04T08:35:23Z Krystof: to be honest I don't remember the details of the implementation myself
2014-05-04T08:35:24Z beach: Krystof: One more thing.  Is it OK to acknowledge your feedback in the paper?
2014-05-04T08:35:27Z Krystof: sure
2014-05-04T08:35:35Z beach: Great!  Thanks!
2014-05-04T08:36:22Z beach: I find it interesting that SBCL/PCL still seems to beat every other method, though I haven't tested LispWorks yet.
2014-05-04T08:36:35Z pjb: minion: memo for drmeister: you don't really need backquote for bootstrapping. You can easily use list and append instead ;-)
2014-05-04T08:36:35Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell drmeister when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-05-04T08:36:36Z beach: And I am not 100% sure about my test for Allegro.
2014-05-04T08:37:14Z p_l: might be interesting to test LW that was run through their "CLOS training" thing
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2014-05-04T08:37:39Z pjb: ggole: but the point of the emacs architecture, is that you can have your cake and eat it, by having an event dispatch loop with key commands that implement an editor AND your application with dialogs, and menus, etc.
2014-05-04T08:37:54Z beach: p_l: what is the "CLOS training" thing?
2014-05-04T08:38:03Z pjb: ggole: there was some works IIRC, to make a libemacs.so :-)
2014-05-04T08:38:42Z p_l: beach: iirc, either LW or ACL has an optimization mode when dumping images for distribution where it tries to precompute dispatch tables
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2014-05-04T08:38:49Z p_l: kinda like profile-guided optimization
2014-05-04T08:38:49Z ggole: pjb: mmm, it would be nice to have civilized editing in every program (at least, every program that uses standard libraries for editing facilities)
2014-05-04T08:39:56Z beach: p_l: Ah, I see.  Yes, interesting, but I don't have access to those implementations.  Maybe in a followup paper once I also have data from SICL itself.
2014-05-04T08:40:33Z p_l: beach: I think both Franz and LW might dispense with a license for such study...
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2014-05-04T08:41:29Z beach: p_l: Interesting thought.  Still, it shall have to wait.  I have 2 more papers to write in the next 2 weeks.
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2014-05-04T08:46:18Z pjb: ggole: anyways, the emacs architecture was an outlier in the unix world of batch programs, but this is the basic architecture of all GUI application, from Smalltalk to iOS.  The only difference is that in an emacs, the dispatching is not hardwired, but goes thru a keymap table that can be possibly changed dynamically by the evaluation of a command in the application itself.
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2014-05-04T08:57:58Z Krystof: there is a precomputation mode in sbcl somewhere too
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2014-05-04T09:01:23Z splittist: This may well be out of date, but interesting nevertheless http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/DV/html/deluser-168.htm
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2014-05-04T09:02:22Z splittist: And this http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lcl50/aug/aug-183.html
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2014-05-04T09:07:54Z beach: splittist: Yes, interesting.  Thanks!
2014-05-04T09:07:59Z wbooze: morning
2014-05-04T09:08:14Z beach: Hello wbooze.
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2014-05-04T09:11:24Z rk[1]: morning?! heh, /me hasn't gone to sleep yet.
2014-05-04T09:11:59Z rk[1]: too busy lisping.
2014-05-04T09:12:09Z p_l: ... I'm not sure when I slept normally last time
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2014-05-04T09:24:04Z beach remains amazed by the endless fascination induced by the existence of different time zones.
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2014-05-04T09:25:56Z p_l: ... there's only one
2014-05-04T09:26:49Z beach: Was it splittist who decided at some point that it is always morning in #lisp?
2014-05-04T09:27:53Z pjb: Since that's the first thing lispers do when awakening, yes, it's always morning in #lisp! :-)
2014-05-04T09:30:18Z splittist: I think that it's the #dylan convention. I have advocated it, yes (:
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2014-05-04T09:46:42Z beach: brucem: Did you mean that starting at section 6, things are not implemented?
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2014-05-04T10:09:53Z ck_: sigh, I'm blanking on something basic. How do I (declare (type <standard-class> var))? What's the correct type specifier?
2014-05-04T10:10:32Z ck_: declaim even.
2014-05-04T10:12:02Z ck_: also, by var I mean symbol. just ignore me, I'll go get some coffee first..
2014-05-04T10:14:07Z beach ignores.
2014-05-04T10:15:09Z rk[1] finished xis commits
2014-05-04T10:15:14Z rk[1]: i think its time for bed...
2014-05-04T10:16:25Z rk[1]: beach: you know, i was thinking recently it would be interesting to see the local time by every nick
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2014-05-04T10:17:12Z ck_: I was just thinking that too. There's probably an ircd module that does that, maybe for the zone of the server you connect to
2014-05-04T10:17:23Z rk[1]: aye
2014-05-04T10:17:34Z rk[1]: but the issue there is many people don't connect directly
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2014-05-04T10:17:53Z rk[1]: hiding behind a endless sea of proxies
2014-05-04T10:18:12Z rk[1]: actually, now that i think about it
2014-05-04T10:18:26Z rk[1]: i connect via a box 3 hours ahead of me in time.
2014-05-04T10:18:32Z p_l: /CTCP TIME
2014-05-04T10:18:50Z p_l: also, probably majority of good servers will show UTC
2014-05-04T10:20:49Z ck_: 1220 so one could do it like this and annoy practically everybody
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2014-05-04T10:25:15Z rk[1]: 03:25 heh
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2014-05-04T10:32:28Z pjb: The localtime of the nick doesn't mean much.  Further, it wouldn't deal with eg. Mars time zones.  Some people work on Mars time, and at the different Mars time zone where their devices are, at that!  If they use irc, they'd have to be tagged with a Martian time zone.
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2014-05-04T10:33:57Z ck_: .. so we need stardates then?
2014-05-04T10:34:51Z ck_: considering the possibly relativistic speeds at which lisp code could travel through the universe, sometime in the future. Best not to underspecify this.
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2014-05-04T10:39:18Z rk[1]: at something so complex, i must retreat in to my bed
2014-05-04T10:39:35Z rk[1]: happy ()ing.
2014-05-04T10:39:44Z ck_: I wish you'd have prefixed that with "Captains log .."
2014-05-04T10:39:48Z ck_: good morning ;)
2014-05-04T10:40:04Z rk[1]: ha and haha
2014-05-04T10:40:25Z rk[1]: you know, i am almost considering, the consideratin that it *could* be morning
2014-05-04T10:40:32Z rk[1]: and just drink a coffee and eat some breakfast.
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2014-05-04T10:40:59Z ck_: I advise against it. That's almost never a good idea
2014-05-04T10:41:19Z rk[1]: _almost_ means there's hope.
2014-05-04T10:42:03Z ck_: it is also terribly off topic. I'll shut up now before someone stabs me over the internet.
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2014-05-04T10:51:33Z pjb: ck_: just consider the GPS network.
2014-05-04T10:52:35Z pjb: also, given that the gravity on the surface of Earth and of Mars is not the same, 1 second on Mars is not the synchronous with 1 second on Earth.
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2014-05-04T10:56:44Z beach suspect #lisp participants are bored, but can't figure out why, given the amount of work to be done.
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2014-05-04T11:00:08Z ck_: I just demonstrated my complete ineptitude with a simple task like "forward declaring something to be a class". Do you really want me to touch anything of value right now? _o_
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2014-05-04T11:00:55Z beach: ck_: I'll wait until you wake up :)
2014-05-04T11:01:22Z ck_: ;)
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2014-05-04T11:02:31Z ck_: I'll note for the record that, of course, the problem was solved by correcting the compilation order which somebody forgot to do after refactoring.
2014-05-04T11:04:02Z splittist starts to cook steak and, inspired by beach, pours glass of St Julien
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2014-05-04T11:38:52Z leo2007: who is this WJ on c.l.l?
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2014-05-04T11:55:38Z pjb: leo2007: a bad bot.
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2014-05-04T12:03:05Z hitecnologys: Is there a way to make slime load specific core image without editing config variables?
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2014-05-04T12:03:44Z hitecnologys: I'd say without touching as one can also lexically bind them.
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2014-05-04T12:06:25Z pjb: C-u M-x slime RET
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2014-05-04T12:08:14Z hitecnologys: pjb: nice, thanks.
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2014-05-04T12:35:45Z CrazyWoods: Is lisp suitable for gui programming?
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2014-05-04T12:37:21Z pjb: CrazyWoods: don't you know that Interface Builder was originally written in Lisp by Jean-Marie Hullot?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interface_Builder
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2014-05-04T12:38:52Z CrazyWoods: pjb: yes, i know
2014-05-04T12:39:07Z CrazyWoods: pjb: but rewrite with objc
2014-05-04T12:39:16Z pjb: That made it worse, of course.
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2014-05-04T12:39:50Z CrazyWoods: pjb: made it worse?
2014-05-04T12:39:56Z pjb: A lot of projects when reaching enterprises get rewritten in other languages than Lisp, always at extraordinary cost, and increase of programming teams (which explain why).
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2014-05-04T12:40:31Z CrazyWoods: pjb: i see
2014-05-04T12:40:35Z rszeno: is a problem of management not of language
2014-05-04T12:40:40Z pjb: Eg. ViaWeb was written in Common Lisp by Paul Graham and a couple of cofounders, and when sold to Yahoo!, they rewrote it in C++, with an army of code monkeys, and couldn't implement all the features.
2014-05-04T12:40:41Z CrazyWoods: pjb: then why they rewrite?
2014-05-04T12:41:07Z pjb: They had decided on Objective-C before finding Interface Builder.
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2014-05-04T12:41:19Z pjb: Ie. purely a management question.
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2014-05-04T12:41:30Z JuanDaugherty: CrazyWoods, I prefer to avoid lisp GUI.
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2014-05-04T12:41:47Z JuanDaugherty: I see it as a backend lang
2014-05-04T12:41:53Z pjb: And what poor programmer would refuse a contract to do some bullshit rewriting for $millions, instead of telling them to just use lisp…
2014-05-04T12:41:58Z JuanDaugherty: rather do GUI in squeak
2014-05-04T12:42:20Z pjb: GUI was invented in lisp!
2014-05-04T12:42:24Z JuanDaugherty: or js if not desktop
2014-05-04T12:42:25Z rszeno: why squeak and not tcl/tk?
2014-05-04T12:42:26Z pjb: Smalltalk was invented in lips!
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2014-05-04T12:43:42Z JuanDaugherty: rszeno, personal pref, first gui and oop was in st 30 years ago
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2014-05-04T12:44:50Z CrazyWoods: what about cross platform gui programming?
2014-05-04T12:45:08Z JuanDaugherty: squeak runs on all common platforms
2014-05-04T12:45:17Z pjb: JuanDaugherty: wrong.  First GUI and OO were in invented long before Smalltalk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos
2014-05-04T12:45:21Z rszeno: fish with wings, doesn't swimm and doesn't fly, ;)
2014-05-04T12:45:33Z JuanDaugherty: pjb, I was referring to my career
2014-05-04T12:45:38Z pjb: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simula
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2014-05-04T12:46:18Z JuanDaugherty: yes, I know as it happens I was systems programmer in a burroughs shop right before the job with ST
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2014-05-04T12:46:41Z CrazyWoods: pjb: you means rewrite it is a management problem not language performance etc... stuff?
2014-05-04T12:46:53Z JuanDaugherty: so was doing algol and simula, learning of ST all occured in that '84 time frame then used next year
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2014-05-04T12:47:25Z pjb: Yes.
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2014-05-04T12:48:40Z CrazyWoods: pjb: what are you use lisp mainly for?
2014-05-04T12:48:49Z CrazyWoods: pjb: GUI or website
2014-05-04T12:48:51Z JuanDaugherty: pjb, yeah in the time frame of the MOAD, lisp systems would have predominated, been what there was
2014-05-04T12:49:13Z JuanDaugherty: or was about to be
2014-05-04T12:49:13Z pjb: Currently, I'm implementing the MCL GUI on Cocoa to have applications written in MCL such as Patchwork run on CCL on Cocoa.
2014-05-04T12:49:26Z pjb: I use lisp mainly for everything.
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2014-05-04T12:50:42Z CrazyWoods: JuanDaugherty: you do gui programming using squeak?
2014-05-04T12:50:42Z JuanDaugherty: so ur a proud monoglot
2014-05-04T12:50:56Z pjb: Not really, no.
2014-05-04T12:51:02Z CrazyWoods: JuanDaugherty: what about the performance?
2014-05-04T12:51:23Z CrazyWoods: pjb: then which gui toolkit do you suggest?
2014-05-04T12:51:34Z JuanDaugherty: CrazyWoods, I'm a self employed professional programmer. I've done GUI programming in many contexts. Most recently AngularJS and yes of course ST too.
2014-05-04T12:51:41Z rszeno: is closer to c, somtime faster, but depend of who write the code
2014-05-04T12:52:47Z JuanDaugherty: CrazyWoods, when performance is a concern I use c/c++.
2014-05-04T12:53:47Z CrazyWoods: rszeno: squeak?
2014-05-04T12:53:59Z rszeno: no, lisp
2014-05-04T12:54:20Z CrazyWoods: rszeno: include gui toolkit?
2014-05-04T12:54:47Z CrazyWoods: JuanDaugherty: what are you mainly for website or desktop
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2014-05-04T12:54:54Z rszeno: not me but this doesn't mean that can't be done
2014-05-04T12:55:29Z JuanDaugherty: CrazyWoods, query unclear, I'm an actual animal, not an automation.
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2014-05-04T12:56:17Z CrazyWoods: JuanDaugherty: ok
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2014-05-04T12:56:55Z CrazyWoods: I want to create a game editor for my game engine, looking for gui toolkit
2014-05-04T12:56:59Z JuanDaugherty: squeak does both, if that was question but I don't use it yet for web
2014-05-04T12:57:34Z JuanDaugherty: typically games are using standard GUIs with whatever engine like unity
2014-05-04T12:57:53Z JuanDaugherty: Qt, OpenGl, Gtk, etc., etc.
2014-05-04T12:58:42Z CrazyWoods: JuanDaugherty: yes
2014-05-04T12:58:44Z JuanDaugherty: in your position I'd go with whatever worked best with the engine I'm working with
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2014-05-04T13:05:26Z JuanDaugherty: "proud monoglot" isn't meant as a slight or anything
2014-05-04T13:05:59Z JuanDaugherty: I'm an extreme polyglot, but I don't think there's anything wrong with sticking to one lang as long as ur not small about it and dis the others without grounding
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2014-05-04T13:11:36Z CrazyWoods: JuanDaugherty: some language do it quick and less pain
2014-05-04T13:12:34Z rszeno: CrazyWoods, speed and pain come from knowing or not how to do it
2014-05-04T13:13:26Z CrazyWoods: rszeno: :)
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2014-05-04T13:20:09Z JuanDaugherty: CrazyWoods, in my experience and current practice I do the langs, they don't do me
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2014-05-04T13:21:50Z JuanDaugherty: i.e. me or much of anything else, without the aforesaid actual whole animals
2014-05-04T13:22:36Z CrazyWoods: JuanDaugherty: :)
2014-05-04T13:23:14Z JuanDaugherty: :)
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2014-05-04T13:26:56Z stassats: beach: therep
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2014-05-04T13:59:42Z pjb: CrazyWoods: I can't advice any GUI toolkit, the constraints deciding on the one you will have to choose being too arbitrary.
2014-05-04T14:00:03Z pjb: If you want a generic answer, I'd say: write your own! (NIH).
2014-05-04T14:00:19Z pjb: But of course, this the very last choice.
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2014-05-04T14:14:13Z loke_: Web-based
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2014-05-04T15:02:31Z kuanyui: Any simple way to concat elements in lists(length are the same) like this? e.g. '("a" "b" "c") '("1" "2" "3") => ("a1" "b2" "c3")
2014-05-04T15:04:04Z Bike: (mapcar (lambda (&rest r) (apply #'concatenate 'string r)) ...)
2014-05-04T15:04:06Z ggole: (mapcar (lambda (a b) (concatenate 'string a b)) (list "a" "b") (list "1" "2"))
2014-05-04T15:04:29Z ggole: Bike's version is a bit more general.
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2014-05-04T15:15:30Z kuanyui: Hmmm....This method is unavailable in Emacs lisp @_@ its mapcar only accpet one SEQUENCE...
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2014-05-04T15:17:11Z ggole: (map 'list ...) then
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2014-05-04T15:17:20Z ggole: Or (cl-map 'list ...), or whatever it is now
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2014-05-04T15:18:53Z kuanyui: Wow! it works, cool!
2014-05-04T15:20:45Z kuanyui: I didn't think up the usage of map like this.  Thanks!
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2014-05-04T15:41:11Z pjb: kuanyui: (require 'cl) (mapcar* (lambda (&rest r) (apply #'concatenate 'string r)) ...)
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2014-05-04T17:17:31Z CrazyWoods: pjb: are you there?
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2014-05-04T17:26:50Z Poenikatu: Hi! I've written a function which has both &rest and &key in the lambda list. When I call it with one keyword argument I get a peculiar error. The details are at http://paste.lisp.org/+31V8. Could you look at this and tell me what I've done wrong?
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2014-05-04T17:28:08Z Sir_herrbatka: hey guys
2014-05-04T17:28:23Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka: hey!
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2014-05-04T17:28:52Z Sir_herrbatka: is there any derivate calculation software written in lisp with source code avaible?
2014-05-04T17:29:08Z Sir_herrbatka: Poenikatu: hi, i'm afraid that i can't help you here
2014-05-04T17:29:15Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka: derivate?
2014-05-04T17:29:31Z Sir_herrbatka: derivatives?
2014-05-04T17:29:39Z Sir_herrbatka: yes
2014-05-04T17:29:45Z Sir_herrbatka: that would be it ;-)
2014-05-04T17:29:53Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka: Hm, still not with you on that.
2014-05-04T17:29:56Z H4ns: Poenikatu: you need to supply the optional argument if you want to supply any keywords.
2014-05-04T17:29:59Z Sir_herrbatka: sorry, i'm not native speaker
2014-05-04T17:30:39Z Poenikatu: H4ns: I agree, but isn't the argument following the :out keyword an optional argument?
2014-05-04T17:30:41Z Snardbafulators: To say semen in Yucatec Maya, you can say 'the atole that comes from the penis" or rather, "sa'il keep".  another option is to say 'dick juice' or rather, "u ka'ab toon". Chimpout Forum encourages you to learn about Mayan culture with La Gruta del alux! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1CCdwTW0ya
2014-05-04T17:30:41Z Snardbafulators: Chimpout Forum is a multicultural and multiracial humanistic movement with the mission to combat the feral negroid beast!  Join Chimpout Forum today! http://www.chimpout.com/forum
2014-05-04T17:30:41Z Snardbafulators: Chimpout Forum now has an official home on Chatkrews! Connect to irc.chatkre.ws +31337 via ssl and join us in the channels #chatkrew and #chimpout
2014-05-04T17:31:07Z Sir_herrbatka: Poenikatu: in the book structure and interpretation of computer programs, there is a chapter like this
2014-05-04T17:31:16Z Sir_herrbatka: but book is writteen in scheme
2014-05-04T17:31:30Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka: Like what?
2014-05-04T17:31:34Z Sir_herrbatka: and i have some problems understanding this chapter
2014-05-04T17:31:46Z Sir_herrbatka: Poenikatu: about simple derivatives calculator
2014-05-04T17:32:03Z Sir_herrbatka: as any example of symbolic calculations
2014-05-04T17:32:06Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka: Ditto concerning your first msg to me
2014-05-04T17:32:17Z Sir_herrbatka: ah, ok
2014-05-04T17:32:23Z Sir_herrbatka: nvm
2014-05-04T17:32:24Z |3b|: Poenikatu: &rest is all remaining arguments including &key args. &key processing starts at same place as &rest list
2014-05-04T17:32:40Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka: I'm reading PAIP by Peter Norvig: he deals with symbolic computation
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2014-05-04T17:33:08Z Sir_herrbatka: Poenikatu: is that a good book?
2014-05-04T17:33:15Z chu: It's decent, a bit dated now.
2014-05-04T17:33:20Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka: Reputedly so.
2014-05-04T17:33:41Z Sir_herrbatka: hmm, i will try to find it, thanks
2014-05-04T17:34:04Z Sir_herrbatka: chu: the topic is fundamental, so i don't think books will age badly
2014-05-04T17:34:39Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka: The full title is "Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp"
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2014-05-04T17:34:50Z Sir_herrbatka: 80s?
2014-05-04T17:34:56Z chu: Early 90s I think
2014-05-04T17:35:07Z Poenikatu: Published 1992
2014-05-04T17:35:14Z chu: Yep
2014-05-04T17:35:18Z beach: Poenikatu: I could use your help to run a test on LispWorks.
2014-05-04T17:35:24Z beach: Would that be OK with you?
2014-05-04T17:35:39Z Poenikatu: The author is now head of research at Google
2014-05-04T17:35:49Z Poenikatu: beach: Sure
2014-05-04T17:36:14Z Sir_herrbatka: Poenikatu: and now he teaches computer networks how to recognize cats? ;-)
2014-05-04T17:36:17Z beach: What kind of computer do you run it on?
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2014-05-04T17:36:37Z Sir_herrbatka: eeeh i wish i could do something that interesting someday
2014-05-04T17:36:44Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka: What have cats got to do with Google, Peter Norvig and CL?
2014-05-04T17:36:51Z oleo: lol
2014-05-04T17:36:54Z Poenikatu: beach: Debian GNU/Linux i386
2014-05-04T17:37:07Z beach: Hmm, OK, I think that will do. :)
2014-05-04T17:37:19Z beach: Poenikatu: Shall we discuss your problem first?
2014-05-04T17:37:25Z Poenikatu: beach: Ok
2014-05-04T17:37:52Z Sir_herrbatka: Poenikatu: didn't you heared that google had project that resoulted in a computer system that is able to analise semantic content?
2014-05-04T17:38:09Z Sir_herrbatka: from youtube videos
2014-05-04T17:38:10Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka: No
2014-05-04T17:38:11Z beach: Poenikatu: There are no optional parameters in your lambda list.
2014-05-04T17:38:29Z Poenikatu: beach: Agreed.
2014-05-04T17:38:45Z beach: Poenikatu: So anything you supply after the required argument must be pairs of keywords and values.
2014-05-04T17:39:22Z Sir_herrbatka: Poenikatu: it was able to construct cat semantics on it's own
2014-05-04T17:39:23Z beach: Poenikatu: Therefore, there must be an odd number of arguments, the required one, and the paris.
2014-05-04T17:39:27Z Poenikatu: beach: I have one required argument: `prog'. 'args' are optional.
2014-05-04T17:39:32Z beach: No
2014-05-04T17:39:36Z Sir_herrbatka: it is pretty amazing actually
2014-05-04T17:39:39Z beach: args are not optional
2014-05-04T17:39:45Z beach: args are &rest.
2014-05-04T17:40:04Z beach: args is a variable that will hold (in this case) all the remaining pairs keyword/value.
2014-05-04T17:40:33Z beach: Like I said, there are no optional parameters here.  Only keyword parameters.
2014-05-04T17:41:05Z Poenikatu: beach: Hm. I want to be able to call `x' with a prog and any number of arguments (possibly none) followed by two possible keyword/value pairs. What lambda list should I use?
2014-05-04T17:41:15Z beach: If you call it like this: (x 234 :out 22 :in 234 :out 444) then args will contain (:out 22 :in 234 :out 444)
2014-05-04T17:41:30Z beach: Poenikatu: You can't express that.
2014-05-04T17:41:53Z Poenikatu: beach: Why not?
2014-05-04T17:41:54Z beach: You would have to put the "any number of arguments" in a list.
2014-05-04T17:42:22Z beach: Poenikatu: Not sure what to tell you.  Lisp was designed the way it was, and there is no way to express it.
2014-05-04T17:42:53Z Poenikatu: So, '(defun x (prog (args) &key in out)'?
2014-05-04T17:43:14Z beach: Poenikatu: There is nothing special about keyword arguments.  They are just ordinary arguments.  So there would be no way to distinguish between a member of your "any number of arguments" and the keyword arguments.
2014-05-04T17:43:30Z beach: No, (defun x (prog args &key in out) ...)
2014-05-04T17:43:40Z Poenikatu: beach: Except that keyword arguments are always preceded by a keyword
2014-05-04T17:44:02Z beach: Then (x "ls" (list "/usr/share/doc" "/stuff/thing") :out 234)
2014-05-04T17:44:07Z Bike: the keywords can be any symbol, actually
2014-05-04T17:44:12Z Poenikatu: beach: And, in your example, I could test args to be a list?
2014-05-04T17:44:26Z beach: Poenikatu: That is exactly what it is.
2014-05-04T17:44:36Z beach: args is another required parameter, and I pass it a list.
2014-05-04T17:44:47Z Poenikatu: Bike: Yes, but have you ever specified a keyword that wasn't preceded by a colon?
2014-05-04T17:44:55Z Vivitron: clhs 3.4.1.4
2014-05-04T17:44:55Z specbot: Specifiers for keyword parameters: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dad.htm
2014-05-04T17:45:08Z Bike: nah, just saying it wouldn't be adequate for parsing to assume keywords
2014-05-04T17:45:13Z beach: Poenikatu: In my example, args would contain ("/usr/share/doc" "/stuff/thing").
2014-05-04T17:45:17Z Bike: especially since you can pass keywords by themselves, of course
2014-05-04T17:45:21Z Vivitron: the first paragraph there specifies the interaction between &rest and &key
2014-05-04T17:45:21Z Poenikatu: Vivitron: Did you remember 3.4.1.4 off by heart?
2014-05-04T17:45:35Z Vivitron: no, I looked it up
2014-05-04T17:45:37Z Poenikatu: beach: I shall do as you gave. Looks good.
2014-05-04T17:46:21Z beach: For the small favor, I need you to do two things.
2014-05-04T17:46:26Z beach: 1. Run a test
2014-05-04T17:46:32Z Poenikatu: beach: Arf a mo
2014-05-04T17:46:37Z beach: 2. Determine the exact clock frequency of your computer.
2014-05-04T17:46:49Z Poenikatu: Vivitron: I've got it displayed and I'll check it soon. Thanks
2014-05-04T17:46:54Z beach: The test can be found here: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf
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2014-05-04T17:47:19Z beach: Define a class and an instance, and the function f.  Then run (time (f)).
2014-05-04T17:47:32Z beach: [and make sure F is compiled]
2014-05-04T17:48:14Z Vivitron: Poenikatu: It doesn't solve your problem (I might use beach's solution), it just specifies the behavior you saw.
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2014-05-04T17:49:11Z Poenikatu: beach: I cannot get that link
2014-05-04T17:49:30Z jsnell_: beach: just a suggestion, but if you want people to run a benchmark, bundle up the benchmark in a single .lisp file for them to run
2014-05-04T17:49:42Z beach: jsnell_: Good point.
2014-05-04T17:49:56Z beach: Poenikatu: Can we do this by email?
2014-05-04T17:50:12Z Poenikatu: beach: poenikatu@fastmail.co.uk
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2014-05-04T17:50:39Z beach: OK.  Thanks.  I won't do it today (need to spend time with my family), but in the next few days. OK?
2014-05-04T17:50:51Z Poenikatu: beach: Any time, friend
2014-05-04T17:50:58Z beach: Thank you very much.
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2014-05-04T17:51:15Z beach: I'll work on the benchmark as jsnell_ suggests, and send you the result.
2014-05-04T17:51:25Z Poenikatu: beach: Ok
2014-05-04T17:51:52Z beach goes to spend time with his (admittedly small) family.
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2014-05-04T19:24:45Z drmeister: So I just hit a nasty problem in my quest to implement moving garbage collection for my C++ implementation of Common Lisp.
2014-05-04T19:24:46Z minion: drmeister, memo from pjb: you don't really need backquote for bootstrapping. You can easily use list and append instead ;-)
2014-05-04T19:25:11Z drmeister: Hmmm.
2014-05-04T19:25:37Z drmeister: I use C++ std::vector<X>,  std::map<X,Y> etc as containers.
2014-05-04T19:26:15Z drmeister: For instance ARRAY of objects is implemented using std::vector<smart_ptr>
2014-05-04T19:27:13Z drmeister: The memory pool system requires that smart_ptr's all be within MPS managed memory.  The implementation of std::vector stores them on the heap outside of MPS managed memory.
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2014-05-04T19:28:04Z drmeister: So I need implementations of something like std::vector, std::map, std::set that will work within MPS managed memory and can handle being moved around in memory and be scanned by MPS.   Whew.
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2014-05-04T19:28:38Z jsnell_: can't you just use a custom allocator?
2014-05-04T19:28:59Z drmeister: jsnell_: I thought so but there are a couple of problems.
2014-05-04T19:29:37Z drmeister: The allocated MPS memory needs to have a header that describes what to scan.   A std::vector is two parts, the std::vector and the block of data it points to.
2014-05-04T19:30:14Z drmeister: the block of data will need it's own header and the garbage collector needs to know what is alive within the data to scan or everything within the data has to be valid and scannable.
2014-05-04T19:30:41Z drmeister: Also, if the data block gets moved then the pointers within the std::vector struct need to be updated to point to it.   The pointers in std::vector are implementation dependent.
2014-05-04T19:31:24Z jsnell_: just to be clear, I'm talking of an allocator as in the last template argument for the STL containers
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2014-05-04T19:31:35Z drmeister: Then there are the details of how data is put into the std::vector.     Say vec.push_back(X).     If the size of the vector is incremented first and then X written into it if there is a GC between increment and X being written then if the element contained junk the scanner will fail.
2014-05-04T19:31:46Z drmeister: jsnell_: Yes.
2014-05-04T19:32:38Z drmeister: I've been thinking about this for a couple of hours and chatted with a very helpful fellow at Ravenbrook to suss out the problems.  What I'm describing are the problems we came up with.   I'm fishing for other ideas.
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2014-05-04T19:33:59Z drmeister: What I could use about now is an efficient implementation of a vector that would work like std::vector but be tolerant of being moved around in memory.
2014-05-04T19:34:05Z rpg: Anyone know if there's trouble at cl.net?  Email sent to asdf-devel is bouncing....
2014-05-04T19:34:29Z rpg: s/bouncing/Connection refused/
2014-05-04T19:36:12Z jsnell_: drmeister: for point 2, can't MPS treat a memory region as gc-managed but not movable?
2014-05-04T19:36:28Z H4ns: rpg: let me check
2014-05-04T19:36:51Z rpg: H4ns: If it's just refusing mail from my server, I'd like to know that, too!
2014-05-04T19:37:11Z H4ns: rpg: no, seems the smtp daemon is down for some reason.  checking
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2014-05-04T19:37:38Z H4ns: "disk full".  ein mal mit profis.
2014-05-04T19:37:40Z drmeister: jsnell_: Yes - it can.  There are different kinds of pools.   The AMS pool (Automatic Mark and Sweep) doesn't move memory.   The AMC pool (Automatic Mostly-Copying)
2014-05-04T19:38:15Z drmeister: I can allocate different objects in different pools.  Maybe just to get things working I could allocate VECTOR in the AMS pool (non-moving).
2014-05-04T19:38:31Z drmeister: Hmmm.
2014-05-04T19:39:07Z H4ns: rpg: give me 5-10 minutes to get that fixed.
2014-05-04T19:39:39Z rpg: Thanks, H4ns! Now I'm glad I mentioned it.
2014-05-04T19:39:46Z drmeister: That would be less than ideal.   Resizable VECTORs that move and compact are much more appealing.
2014-05-04T19:39:46Z jsnell_: drmeister: for points 1/3, I don't see what the problem would be with everything within the data being valid and scannable. when the allocator allocates a new chunk of memory for a container, initialize it such that it contains only things that won't be interpreted as invalid pointers. also make the destructor of a smart_ptr leave its backing memory in such a state
2014-05-04T19:40:52Z ogamita: drmeister: you will probably have much fun with C++ iterators…
2014-05-04T19:40:58Z drmeister: jsnell_: I agree.   I would have to implement that myself though.
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2014-05-04T19:42:32Z drmeister: ogamita:  They won't be a problem.   If the iterator is on the stack the MPS library will pin the VECTOR.  I don't put iterators on the heap but if I did my static analyzer would identify it and write code to update it during scanning.
2014-05-04T19:44:32Z drmeister: I implemented a HASH-TABLE that depends on an implementation of VECTOR.    I'll just implement a VECTOR object that can handle being moved around and then use it for everything that currently uses std::vector.   I'll convert uses of std::map and std::set to work with HASH-TABLE.
2014-05-04T19:44:42Z drmeister: It's a bit more work but that should cover everything.
2014-05-04T19:46:17Z H4ns: rpg: i alerted the ops to add more space.  I hope that ehu or easye can get it done quickly.
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2014-05-04T19:47:10Z rpg: H4ns: Thanks.  I appreciate it. We're just about to release ASDF, so by a trivial application of Murphy's law, this is when email fails....
2014-05-04T19:47:21Z H4ns: rpg: :(
2014-05-04T19:47:59Z drmeister: I got my Common Lisp system to run when I allocate everything in the AMS pool (non-moving).  I can load my compiler and run it.  It's very slow because the AMS pool is not meant for production use.  But it works.
2014-05-04T19:48:06Z H4ns: rpg: i can move some stuff around to make some space if it is urgent enough.
2014-05-04T19:48:20Z rpg: H4ns: No, that's fine, thanks.
2014-05-04T19:48:28Z H4ns: rpg: ok, sorry.
2014-05-04T19:48:48Z rpg: H4ns: No apology necessary.  I just feel stupid for not reporting this on Friday...
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2014-05-04T20:08:00Z ehu: gotcha there easye: running long term processes on the lisp.not.org host, heh?
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2014-05-04T20:10:48Z ehu: H4ns: working on it. actually, I was working on it this morning and thought I had resolved the issue. apparently not.
2014-05-04T20:10:59Z ehu: (I did get a warning from my monitoring)
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2014-05-04T20:16:16Z H4ns: ehu: /var is still tight on space.
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2014-05-04T20:27:54Z nialo: so I don't know how much you guys will be able to help, but I appear to be getting incorrect values back from a hash table in CL
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2014-05-04T20:28:29Z H4ns: nialo: you need to show us the source.
2014-05-04T20:28:38Z nialo: as in, I put a bunch of stuff into a table, and then I look up one of the values, and get a completely different one.
2014-05-04T20:28:43Z nialo: figured :(
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2014-05-04T20:29:05Z H4ns: nialo: what kind of keys do you use?  how do you create your hash table?
2014-05-04T20:29:49Z nialo: integer keys, (let ((forward-table (make-hash-table :size (* 32 (expt 16 n))))) where I know that at most (expt 16 n) values will be going into it
2014-05-04T20:31:07Z H4ns: nialo: looks legit.  do you see the problem occur the same way with different cl implementations?
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2014-05-04T20:32:06Z nialo: I've only tried it on CCL, so I don't know either way
2014-05-04T20:33:33Z H4ns: might be worth a try.  other than that, you'll have to "just debug until you find the problem"
2014-05-04T20:33:54Z H4ns: by trying a different implementation, you could rule out the thought that your lisp is at fault.
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2014-05-04T20:40:22Z nialo: on further investigation, it turns out that no matter what key I use I get the same value
2014-05-04T20:41:33Z H4ns: then you write the same value for all keys.
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2014-05-04T20:45:45Z ehu: H4ns: right. I'm adding 50g, but it insists on reorganizing its data.
2014-05-04T20:45:57Z ehu: I'll copy the data over outside of the vm
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2014-05-04T20:46:27Z ehu: and simply replace the volume with the bigger one.
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2014-05-04T20:46:35Z H4ns: ok
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2014-05-04T20:56:52Z |3b|: nialo: a hash table with 32x as many elements as you expect to use sounds a bit big (though should still work correctly)
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2014-05-04T21:06:08Z ehu: H4ns: it's back up. only 3% used now.
2014-05-04T21:06:36Z ehu: and mail seems to be flowing again.
2014-05-04T21:06:40Z ehu: or at least, the logs do.
2014-05-04T21:06:42Z H4ns: ehu: thanks!
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2014-05-04T21:14:08Z ehu: H4ns: added the old /var size to the '/' which was the next-most-crowded.
2014-05-04T21:16:13Z ehu: H4ns: where does mailman store its archives? on /var?
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2014-05-04T21:23:24Z H4ns: let me check
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2014-05-04T21:25:01Z H4ns: ehu: /var/lib/mailman/archives
2014-05-04T21:25:09Z ehu: ok. thanks.
2014-05-04T21:25:27Z ehu: var has been added back to the weekly backups as well as the hourly snapshots.
2014-05-04T21:25:36Z ehu: weekly off-sites, that is.
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2014-05-04T21:25:58Z ehu: the storage was so full of data it wasn't able to reclaim its unused space.
2014-05-04T21:26:26Z ehu: now with the data copied to the bigger store, instead of 2.3G, the data takes only 1.1G
2014-05-04T21:26:36Z ehu: anyway, there's 50G to store it on now.
2014-05-04T21:26:49Z ehu: so that should work for a while.
2014-05-04T21:27:51Z H4ns: i'd suppose so. :)
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2014-05-04T21:35:59Z ehu: with that out of the way, I suppose the next step is to migrate the project and user-home directories
2014-05-04T21:36:29Z ehu: H4ns: ^^ would you agree?
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2014-05-04T21:45:51Z nialo: |3b|:  I started out with 2x, and added more on the off chance that it would help with my getting the wrong answers problem
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2014-05-04T21:50:26Z |3b|: nialo: hash tables resize automatically, and effect of those values is implementation dependent anyway, so not much point in setting them larger than expected
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2014-05-04T21:51:19Z |3b|: (not much point in setting them at all for that matter, unless you are adding a huge number of items at once)
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2014-05-04T22:00:56Z ehu: ok. off to bed. ttyl.
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2014-05-05T00:04:55Z meow271: test
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2014-05-05T00:13:05Z meow271: can someone explain to me why this is illegal? (loop for index from 0 to 10 print index)
2014-05-05T00:13:44Z stassats: do you want an explanation or do you want to get it working ?
2014-05-05T00:13:51Z stassats: (loop for index below 10 do (print index))
2014-05-05T00:14:24Z nyef: Heh. Paren blindness strikes again: I saw the missing DO, but not the missing parens. (-:
2014-05-05T00:14:25Z meow271: stassats: Ah much obliged thanks!
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2014-05-05T00:19:59Z meow271: is there something wrong with this code?: (push (nth index-from-a-loop some-list) some-buffer)
2014-05-05T00:20:18Z stassats: it is slow
2014-05-05T00:20:53Z meow271: because im not inherently using arrays?
2014-05-05T00:21:07Z stassats: no
2014-05-05T00:21:40Z stassats: (loop for some-element in some-list do (push some-element some-buffer))
2014-05-05T00:22:33Z meow271: that would assume I would want to reverse everything in the original list
2014-05-05T00:22:49Z meow271: but i didnt provide enough context
2014-05-05T00:22:54Z stassats: (loop for some-element in some-list do collect some-element)
2014-05-05T00:22:58Z stassats: s/do//
2014-05-05T00:23:40Z White_Flame: (copy-list some-list) :-P
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2014-05-05T00:24:15Z stassats: some-list
2014-05-05T00:24:37Z White_Flame: actually, (setf some-buffer (copy-list some-list))
2014-05-05T00:25:02Z White_Flame: though I suspect the some-buffer is intended to hold more than that :)
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2014-05-05T00:27:56Z meow271: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142396 -- im trying to figure out why this works in my repl but not as a load-in for clisp or ccl
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2014-05-05T00:29:21Z stassats: clearly, because of the dangling parenthesis
2014-05-05T00:29:27Z White_Flame: "not working" is not a description of what's going wrong (ie, compile error?  wrong output?)
2014-05-05T00:29:48Z nyef: minion: advice on working?
2014-05-05T00:29:48Z minion: #11902: You said it didn't work, but you didn't say what it would have done if it *had* worked.
2014-05-05T00:30:17Z stassats: let me guess, the random numbers are always the same?
2014-05-05T00:30:39Z stassats: and there's nothing being returned either
2014-05-05T00:30:41Z meow271: white_flame: compile error
2014-05-05T00:31:06Z stassats: pack your things, it's a compile error!
2014-05-05T00:31:56Z meow271: stassats: but i dont understand what's wrong. the error points to the push, but I dont see what's wrong with it...
2014-05-05T00:32:06Z meow271 is a newbie 
2014-05-05T00:32:20Z stassats: i don't see what's wrong either, maybe it's because i don't see the error you are having from here
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2014-05-05T00:33:52Z meow271: and all of the sudden it starts working..... Man I have made an idiot out of myself
2014-05-05T00:34:02Z nyef: Umm... You know that there's no guarantee that pt2 is after pt1, which is required for that LOOP form, right?
2014-05-05T00:35:02Z stassats: (nreverse (subseq some-list (random (1+ num)) (1+ (random (1+ num)))))
2014-05-05T00:35:13Z meow271: nyef: yeah, i have a line after it (not included) that generates a new rand until the two arent equal
2014-05-05T00:35:32Z nyef: It's not a matter of equal, it's a matter of ordering.
2014-05-05T00:35:52Z meow271: nyef: ah, that's also accounted for with a rotatef
2014-05-05T00:35:56Z stassats: what about (when (> pt1 pt2) (rotatef pt1 pt2))
2014-05-05T00:36:01Z meow271: ^
2014-05-05T00:36:51Z meow271: stassats: wait, i can stick the when in a loop instead of a renegade if statement?
2014-05-05T00:37:25Z stassats: a renegade?
2014-05-05T00:38:19Z meow271: do stuff in for loop, then check after the loop is done with an if
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2014-05-05T02:41:29Z Greyhat: question for the SBCL users/hackers --
2014-05-05T02:43:20Z Greyhat: I want to invoke SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE, but it seems that there are 4 threads
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2014-05-05T02:43:35Z stassats: make it 1 thread
2014-05-05T02:43:37Z nyef: You're doing this from SLIME, aren't you?
2014-05-05T02:43:38Z Greyhat: that I have to stop before being able to do so.
2014-05-05T02:43:40Z Greyhat: yes.
2014-05-05T02:43:53Z Greyhat: I have slime installed, I am just at a loss on how to shut them down
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2014-05-05T02:44:19Z nyef hasn't the foggiest idea about SLIME anymore.
2014-05-05T02:44:26Z stassats: saving a running slime core is not of the greatest ideas
2014-05-05T02:44:59Z nyef: Whenever I've been tempted to produce a slimed core, I typically arrange for slime to start AFTER the core is restarted, not before I save it.
2014-05-05T02:46:04Z Greyhat: ah, so those active threads I see are slime threads?
2014-05-05T02:46:53Z Greyhat: this is what I see:  http://pastebin.com/nRTZusb1
2014-05-05T02:47:11Z Bike: yep, that's slime.
2014-05-05T02:47:19Z nyef: Do an (sb-thread:list-all-threads) or whatever it is, or pull up the thread list in slime however you do that, and see. ISTR that the slime threads are fairly obviously labelled.
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2014-05-05T02:48:53Z Greyhat: OK.  so if you were writing a project, and wanted to dump the image, what would need to be done to be able to use (SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE)
2014-05-05T02:49:07Z Bike: not start the image-to-dump from slime
2014-05-05T02:50:13Z Greyhat: how *would* you dump the image?  Load the code from the command line, then invoke (SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE)?
2014-05-05T02:51:01Z Bike: write a short .lisp file that loads everything and calls save-lisp-and-die, then do 'sbcl --load that-file.lisp' or whatever the syntax is
2014-05-05T02:51:48Z Greyhat: Ah, OK.  I think I get it now.  This is something that cannot be done interactively at the REPL.  Thx.
2014-05-05T02:52:14Z Bike: well, you probably don't want to save your whole development environment anyway
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2014-05-05T02:52:52Z zRecursive: As sbcl image is VERY large :)
2014-05-05T02:53:33Z Greyhat: Suppose you are working on a project.  Do you just save it in source form until it has passed whatever tests it must, then package it as an application?
2014-05-05T02:53:46Z nyef: Yes, absolutely.
2014-05-05T02:53:54Z nyef: For that matter, my test runner is a shell script.
2014-05-05T02:55:24Z Greyhat: Bike:  can you explain what the standard procedure is to create an SBCL application?  From the manuals, I get the idea that the entire heap image
2014-05-05T02:55:26Z Greyhat: is delivered
2014-05-05T02:57:35Z Bike: that's how save-lisp-and-die works, yeah
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2014-05-05T02:57:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-05-05T02:57:53Z beach: stassats: You rang?
2014-05-05T02:57:56Z nyef: Hello beach.
2014-05-05T02:57:56Z p_l: beach: bonjour
2014-05-05T02:58:11Z Bike: i think the basic pattern is going to be (load-my-stuff) (save-lisp-and-die :toplevel #'whatever)
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2014-05-05T02:58:30Z zRecursive: Greyhat: If you can deliver source, then you can do "sbcl --eval '(require (quote foo))' --eval '(yourapp:main)'" without a sbcl image ?
2014-05-05T02:59:23Z stassats: beach: i wanted to say something about the generic dispatch paper, but i'll probably do that later
2014-05-05T03:00:09Z beach: stassats: OK, no rush.  I'll be here a for a few more hours.  Then I leave and get to work.  But we can do this some other time.
2014-05-05T03:00:17Z Greyhat: zRecursive:  I'd prefer to just deliver a binary, TBH.
2014-05-05T03:00:32Z Greyhat: Not writing an app for lisp hackers yet...
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2014-05-05T03:08:56Z Greyhat: many thanks for the info -- saved me hours from trying to figure this out on my own.
2014-05-05T03:11:41Z stassats: beach: one thing that i'm worried is that on 32-bit systems, you may run out of stamps
2014-05-05T03:12:14Z stassats: using two words may be a solution
2014-05-05T03:12:39Z beach: stassats: Right.
2014-05-05T03:12:58Z beach: stassats: It is very unlikely that it will happen, but it could.
2014-05-05T03:13:15Z beach: stassats: I should mention it.
2014-05-05T03:13:27Z stassats: somebody bragged about having sbcl for three or four years
2014-05-05T03:13:48Z stassats: at full tilt, sbcl can exhaust the 32-bit number in a couple of weeks
2014-05-05T03:14:07Z beach: But they would have to do a lot of redefining classes to run out of stamps.
2014-05-05T03:15:18Z beach: But, yeah, it can happen, so I should mention it.
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2014-05-05T03:15:58Z stassats: another thing, if you don't store the stamp in a vector, you can save a memory access
2014-05-05T03:16:20Z beach: Where would I store it then?
2014-05-05T03:16:36Z stassats: in another memory word
2014-05-05T03:16:55Z beach: The stamp must be associated with the instance somehow.
2014-05-05T03:17:21Z stassats: that word is inside the instance, presumably
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2014-05-05T03:18:00Z beach: Now, the stamp is stored in the "slot vector" which I call the "rack" because I use it for things other than slots, such as array elements.
2014-05-05T03:18:10Z stassats: on sbcl, it can be even better, all other pointers (i.e. non immediates) have a header, with low 8 bits used for the tag, the rest 56 bits can be used freely
2014-05-05T03:19:23Z beach: Hmm, OK, so where do you store the pointer to the class?
2014-05-05T03:20:04Z stassats: in sbcl, it's [header][class-wrapper][slot-vector][hash-code]
2014-05-05T03:20:24Z beach: Oh, I understand.
2014-05-05T03:20:43Z beach: So what I call a "header" (2 words) is 4 words in SBCL.
2014-05-05T03:20:55Z beach: Yes, then you can put the stamp there.
2014-05-05T03:21:04Z beach: And definitely save a memory access.
2014-05-05T03:21:09Z beach: Nice.
2014-05-05T03:21:34Z stassats: and in sbcl, the space is already there, at least on 64-bit
2014-05-05T03:21:42Z beach: Yes, I see.
2014-05-05T03:21:57Z beach: That would be very fast.
2014-05-05T03:22:22Z stassats: and the 8 bits, instance-widetag, is constant, so it doesn't need to be shifted away
2014-05-05T03:22:38Z beach: OK.
2014-05-05T03:22:41Z stassats: except that it's different for funcallable-instances
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2014-05-05T03:23:01Z beach: Oh, but wait, if you implement my technique, you can remove the class wrapper
2014-05-05T03:23:43Z stassats: that wouldn't do much, allocation is double-word aligned
2014-05-05T03:24:07Z beach: I see.  And the hash code is for things like hash tables?
2014-05-05T03:24:39Z stassats: right
2014-05-05T03:24:52Z beach: Oh, I am stupid.  If you remove the class wrapper, you would have to store the reference to the class instead.
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2014-05-05T03:25:33Z beach: OK, so basically you are saying that by having a 4 word "header" instead my 2 words, you save a memory access.  That is a very valid point.
2014-05-05T03:26:38Z beach: It would be interesting to compare performance of the two different ways.
2014-05-05T03:27:11Z beach: What do you use the tag for?
2014-05-05T03:27:29Z stassats: for tagging!
2014-05-05T03:27:39Z stassats: bignums, arrays, double-floats
2014-05-05T03:27:57Z beach: You could probably remove that then, because the stamp does everything you need.
2014-05-05T03:29:20Z stassats: the 56 bits of the header are used for other things
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2014-05-05T03:29:53Z stassats: bignums are [56-bit length|8-bit bignum-widetag][digits...]
2014-05-05T03:30:05Z beach: Now I am confused.  I thought you said they were available for the stamp.
2014-05-05T03:30:12Z stassats: that's for instances
2014-05-05T03:30:18Z beach: Oh, yes. I see.
2014-05-05T03:30:19Z stassats: bignums aren't instances
2014-05-05T03:30:30Z beach: Yes, yes.  I am stupid.
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2014-05-05T03:30:48Z beach: In SICL, I plan to make bignums general instances.
2014-05-05T03:31:42Z beach: So, in that case, you will have extra work to do when you specialize on integers.
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2014-05-05T03:33:02Z stassats: luckily, they can't be nor redefined, neither subclased
2014-05-05T03:33:05Z beach: And in fact, you would have extra work anyway, because you first have to check whether you have a standard object.
2014-05-05T03:33:20Z beach: Otherwise, you would not allowed to test the stamp.
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2014-05-05T03:34:06Z stassats: then there are fixnums or single-floats, or characters, which are immediate
2014-05-05T03:34:21Z beach: Right.
2014-05-05T03:34:45Z stassats: and the dual symbol-list relationship with NIL
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2014-05-05T03:36:22Z beach: For SICL, I plan to do this: Check whether it is a general instance (i.e., heap allocated object other than CONS).  If so, check the stamp.
2014-05-05T03:36:37Z beach: For SBCL, you would have to do more.
2014-05-05T03:37:04Z stassats: well, it already does more
2014-05-05T03:37:09Z beach: Check whether it is a heap allocated object.  If so, check whether it is a standard object.
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2014-05-05T03:40:24Z beach: I guess that answers my question.  Thanks for your help.
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2014-05-05T03:40:44Z stassats: i think pkhuong had some notes too
2014-05-05T03:40:54Z beach: notes about what?
2014-05-05T03:40:59Z stassats: the paper
2014-05-05T03:41:10Z beach: Oh, he read it?  Great!
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2014-05-05T03:44:23Z beach: Is he planning to send his notes to me?
2014-05-05T03:44:43Z stassats: probably
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2014-05-05T03:45:11Z beach: Excellent!  Thanks for your help, and thanks for telling pkhuong.
2014-05-05T03:45:43Z stassats: i didn't tell him!
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2014-05-05T03:46:31Z beach: Oh, OK.  Not important.
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2014-05-05T04:26:37Z meow271: is there a C-Style return equivalent in common lisp?
2014-05-05T04:29:58Z H4ns: meow271: no.  you can use return-from, but it is ugly.
2014-05-05T04:31:05Z meow271: H4ns, ok thanks
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2014-05-05T04:42:13Z oleo: morning
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2014-05-05T05:34:30Z Guthur: How can i get the following...
2014-05-05T05:34:33Z Guthur: (defun make-method (foo) (defmethod foobar ((bar foo)) ...))
2014-05-05T05:34:40Z Guthur: (make-method 'some-class)
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2014-05-05T05:41:21Z pjb: Guthur: you should write a macro: (defmacro generate-method (class-name) `(defmethod …)) (generate-method some-class)
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2014-05-05T05:42:33Z pjb: Guthur: if the class is not known at compilation time, then you will have to use eval.
2014-05-05T05:42:53Z pjb: (defun make-method (run-time-class-name) (eval `(defmethod foobar ((bar ,run-time-class-name)) ...))
2014-05-05T05:43:16Z Guthur: pjb: yeah, I was just wondering if there was a way to do it without a macro
2014-05-05T05:44:04Z pjb: It might be possible with MOP, but it'll be implementation dependant.  Check if there's something in CLOSER-MOP to create methods.
2014-05-05T05:44:18Z pjb: in CL, there are ADD-METHOD and REMOVE-METHOD, but nothing to create methods.
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2014-05-05T05:44:40Z pjb: apart from defmethod of couse.
2014-05-05T05:44:42Z pjb: r
2014-05-05T05:48:45Z Guthur: ok, cheers
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2014-05-05T05:53:59Z meow271: is there a way without using cond to do the following (if T then do (X Y Z) else do (X Y)))
2014-05-05T05:54:21Z meow271: where X Y Z are functions
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2014-05-05T05:55:34Z splittist: meow271: isn't that X Y (when T Z) ?
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2014-05-05T05:55:53Z splittist: Or are you calling X with Y and Z as arguments?
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2014-05-05T05:56:59Z meow271: splittist: (if T (print 'A) (print 'B)) I want A and B to be printed instead of just A
2014-05-05T05:57:40Z splittist: meow271: T is a really bad example name. How many branches does your conditional have?
2014-05-05T05:58:57Z meow271: splittist: for the purposes of what im hoping to have, yes it is: I want to be able to do multiple functions as if it was one function call (without writing a defun and all)
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2014-05-05T06:00:02Z zRecursive: meow271: (progn (fun1 ...) (fun2 ...))
2014-05-05T06:00:49Z splittist: meow271: I don't understand. There are one-branch conditionals - WHEN and UNLESS - that have an implicit PROGN. COND does, too. But IF doesn't. If that bothers you, you can always defmacro THEN and ELSE to mean PROGN and write (IF A (THEN (X Y)) (ELSE (Z1 Z2 Z3)) (:
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2014-05-05T06:04:24Z meow271: zRecursive: i was looking for that thanks, splittist: thanks for the heads up =^.^=
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2014-05-05T06:20:44Z H4ns: meow271: cond is more idiomatic than using if+progn
2014-05-05T06:21:16Z meow271: H4ns: I get lost in the parenthesis
2014-05-05T06:21:31Z H4ns: meow271: you'll get used to it.
2014-05-05T06:21:36Z DataLinkDroid: meow271: which one?
2014-05-05T06:21:51Z meow271: DataLinkDroid: the ones involved with cond
2014-05-05T06:22:06Z DataLinkDroid: ah :)
2014-05-05T06:22:06Z phadthai: cond was tricky for me at first too
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2014-05-05T06:22:47Z DataLinkDroid: you have to think carefully about what the parentheses are for
2014-05-05T06:22:50Z H4ns: (defmacro then ..) is the equivalent of #define BEGIN {
2014-05-05T06:22:54Z DataLinkDroid: then you will stop getting confused
2014-05-05T06:23:07Z H4ns: i.e. no self-respecting c programmer would ever use such a thing
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2014-05-05T06:32:15Z H4ns: unless they're john foderaro, of course
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2014-05-05T06:37:28Z H4ns: meow271: never mind.
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2014-05-05T06:37:31Z meow271: oh http://franz.com/about/bios/jkf.lhtml
2014-05-05T06:38:04Z H4ns: meow271: right.  he's the author of franz inc's lisp "style" guide, which basically says everyone should use the if* macro that jkf wrote.
2014-05-05T06:38:31Z H4ns: meow271: luckily, that "style" guide has a very very small following beyond franz inc's customers.
2014-05-05T06:39:33Z H4ns: meow271: my point is:  the parentheses, the structure of if vs cond and all that are unfamiliar to you, but it is worth learning how to use them rather than trying to make lisp behave as it was another language.
2014-05-05T06:40:18Z H4ns: meow271: otoh, writing a "while" or "better defclass" macro is part of the learning experience.
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2014-05-05T07:15:33Z ck_: .. fail again. fail better. ;)
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2014-05-05T07:16:50Z ck_ has some time on his hands after the allegro updater didn't fail better at all
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2014-05-05T10:25:08Z loke: C++, the language where even clever and smart solutions are terrible: http://blog.sduto.it/2014/05/a-c-error-handling-style-that-plays.html
2014-05-05T10:25:28Z loke: I kept thinking about how many hoops they just through to do something that is trvial in Lisp
2014-05-05T10:25:44Z p_l: loke: remember, to debug you have to be a magnitude more clever than the code you wrote. Don't write clever code.
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2014-05-05T10:27:00Z loke: p_l: I find it remarkable how much effort C++ programmers spend creating hacks to make things "seem" normal. "ohh, look! I can call my function and there will be an exception if there is an error (by doing stuff like creationg transient wrapper objects that check error state in the destructor...)"
2014-05-05T10:27:33Z loke: If they had just gone with a fully-fledged macro system like Lisp they'd be done already
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2014-05-05T10:48:13Z phadthai: loke: not lisp related, but I find it similar for C vs C++ for kernel code (the amount of work needed for C++ in that scenario)
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2014-05-05T12:38:59Z aerique: Anyone up for a CL optimization challenge? http://paste.lisp.org/display/142399
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2014-05-05T13:03:09Z JuanDaugherty hopes not challenges suck
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2014-05-05T13:10:08Z |3b|: JuanDaugherty: better than doing a crossword puzzle or sudoku something :)
2014-05-05T13:12:29Z JuanDaugherty: under rubrics like 'problem', 'puzzle', yeah, maybe depending
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2014-05-05T13:24:19Z samebchase: aerique: are you planning to submit your implementation to the repo?
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2014-05-05T13:29:01Z aerique: samebchase: My current one, I don't know.  It looks like the guy (although I have had no contact with him besides a directed tweet) has already defined a set of languages he will choose from.  I'm also not going to spend more time on optimizing it, it was fun while it lasted but I've got work to do :-)  Perhaps if someone manages to improve it a lot and still keep it somewhat readable (s)he or I might bring it to the guys attention. I just thought some people m
2014-05-05T13:30:32Z |3b| didn't see any obvious simple stuff, but doesn't have time to look more at the moment... would probably try to reduce allocation of temporaries or something next
2014-05-05T13:30:37Z aerique: The C and Julia code look pretty convoluted so perhaps more performing CL version can be more liberal with readability as well.
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2014-05-05T13:31:45Z aerique: |3b|: M* takes up a lot of time and the C and Julia versions handle that better.
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2014-05-05T13:33:48Z aerique: |3b|: eh, so what I tried to say is: you're correct
2014-05-05T13:34:29Z |3b|: using blas from CL would probably help too
2014-05-05T13:39:33Z Xach: dim: I can't build pgloader today because of how it's using git to get version info.
2014-05-05T13:39:42Z Xach: dim: should i use a branch or some released tarball instead?
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2014-05-05T13:45:39Z samebchase: aerique: okay. how close is it to the fastest solution?
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2014-05-05T14:09:15Z aerique: samebchase: mine isn't close at all, it's close to the Python 2 + Numpy solution.  It's actually a pretty literal translation of the Python code with declarations added to the function that took up most of the time.  So there's quite so gains to be had.
2014-05-05T14:09:55Z Fare: hello, live from ELS2014
2014-05-05T14:10:19Z theos: hi
2014-05-05T14:11:20Z loke_: Fare: I'm jealous
2014-05-05T14:11:26Z loke_: I actually intended to go
2014-05-05T14:12:10Z Xach: loke_: ILC instead?
2014-05-05T14:12:10Z loke_: But I need to go to Paris next month anyway, so there was little point in me spending 12 hours on a flight twice in a few weeks :-)
2014-05-05T14:12:17Z loke_: Xach: where is that?
2014-05-05T14:12:22Z Xach: canada
2014-05-05T14:12:26Z ogamita: currently at ELS: OMAS Multi Agent System demo ;-)
2014-05-05T14:12:27Z loke_: Too far away
2014-05-05T14:12:32Z Xach: bah
2014-05-05T14:12:45Z loke_: What city is it in?
2014-05-05T14:12:46Z Xach: I'm going, and canada is like a five hour drive
2014-05-05T14:12:49Z Xach: loke_: montreal
2014-05-05T14:12:57Z loke_: let's see how long the flight is...
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2014-05-05T14:13:17Z Xach: drewc is sailing there, maybe you can get a ride
2014-05-05T14:14:15Z loke_: The shortest flight for me is... Hmm... British Airways. Only 29 hours and 25 minutes!
2014-05-05T14:15:10Z Krystof: what misbegotten part of the world ar you in?
2014-05-05T14:15:17Z ogamita: loke_: Just bore a hole in the Earth, empty it from any gas, and shot down it, you'll get there in one hour!
2014-05-05T14:15:30Z loke_: 32:48 hours with air canada
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2014-05-05T14:15:47Z loke_: So no... As much as I would love to go, not going to happen :-(
2014-05-05T14:16:00Z Krystof: go team #els2014
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2014-05-05T14:16:19Z Fare: ogamita, it's not the gas, it's the liquid iron core that kills.
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2014-05-05T14:17:39Z loke_: Will you guys please stop rubbing it in? :-(  I was looking forward to meeting you guys
2014-05-05T14:17:55Z loke_: You should have had the event in this part of the world
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2014-05-05T14:18:06Z ogamita: Fare: yes, but I didn't say to dig vertically: in a vacuum, you can just satelize yourself under the earth level, so you still get there in the same time! The only difference is that now you have to accelerate and decelerate to orbital velocity. :-)
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2014-05-05T14:18:40Z ogamita: If an ELS were organized in Quebec, I'd come over.
2014-05-05T14:18:56Z loke_: SLS
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2014-05-05T14:20:16Z Krystof: loke_: just follow the tweets; it's almost like being here
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2014-05-05T14:22:25Z Fare: NALS
2014-05-05T14:22:39Z Fare: or, if in Quebec, SLAN
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2014-05-05T14:23:53Z Fare: loke: which part of the world are you in?
2014-05-05T14:27:07Z Xach: Industrial Lispers of the World
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2014-05-05T14:27:41Z JuanDaugherty: Xach, was cl-mpi ever in ql?
2014-05-05T14:27:56Z JuanDaugherty: (or anything like that)
2014-05-05T14:28:01Z Xach: JuanDaugherty: I don't think so. If I remember correctly, it requires per-site customization to build.
2014-05-05T14:28:08Z JuanDaugherty: ah
2014-05-05T14:28:36Z Xach: There isn't a good way to integrate that need with Quicklisp yet. I'd love to see some standard config system that people use to do pre-build or pre-load configuration.
2014-05-05T14:28:46Z Xach wonders if Shinmera has a candidate for that
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2014-05-05T14:46:41Z Shinmera: Hmm, I'm not sure if the thing I built is a good candidate for that.
2014-05-05T14:47:51Z Shinmera: Since the configuration files it loads or writes can look rather ugly depending on the format's capabilities.
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2014-05-05T14:48:34Z Xach: OK.
2014-05-05T14:48:47Z Xach has been pondering making something very simple for the purpose
2014-05-05T14:49:20Z Shinmera: Though I suppose you could always just declare that a specific configuration format that's optimised to look alright is required.
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2014-05-05T14:51:37Z Shinmera: I would have to know more about what exactly you need to be able to tell you if I can help you out.
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2014-05-05T14:54:04Z Xach: One example: i have a program that emails me when a certian process is done, but I don't want to bake the email into the application. I'd like to load some persistent configuration that has the desired email address in it. Trivial to do one-off code for it, but I'd rather not roll the same thing over and over again.
2014-05-05T14:54:35Z Xach: Similar case for storing api keys, database hostnames, etc, for other programs.
2014-05-05T14:54:41Z Shinmera: Right.
2014-05-05T14:54:42Z dim: hi from the ELS 2014 ;-)
2014-05-05T14:54:57Z Xach: Something that doesn't require the library in question to be loaded to save the info.
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2014-05-05T14:55:20Z Xach: dim: hi! pgloader's use of spawning git is causing me Problems!
2014-05-05T14:55:48Z dim: is there a portable-enough way to "setenv" from SBCL/CCL (for now that will do) without requiring C-based stuff? (iolib and osicat are out, didn't see how to do that in uiop)
2014-05-05T14:55:52Z dim: dim: tell me about it?
2014-05-05T14:56:09Z Shinmera: Universal-Config could certainly take on the task of loading/writing configuration, though I'm not sure if I want to advocate its use just yet, as there's a few unniceties in the way it stores things that I want to rethink first.
2014-05-05T14:56:24Z dim: I just had a great personnal hi with --self-upgrade in pgloader, it's fair to have bugs to fix now ;-)
2014-05-05T14:57:10Z Xach: dim: When I test building pgloader (or anything else), I update a vcs checkout, then use that to make a snapshot tarball from which to build. It looks like pgloader is trying to run git commands even when the sources are not in a git repo.
2014-05-05T14:57:30Z Xach: Should I use a branch or release or something that doesn't use git to get version info?
2014-05-05T14:57:47Z dim: ooooh, that's very recent, I didn't think about that
2014-05-05T14:57:58Z Xach: Every day I'm building.
2014-05-05T14:58:11Z dim: (defparameter *realease* nil) --> t in params.lisp
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2014-05-05T14:58:19Z dim: do you have a way to hack that in your build process?
2014-05-05T14:58:26Z Xach: dim: No.
2014-05-05T14:58:32Z dim: we could find another way to do it for sure
2014-05-05T14:58:38Z Xach: Ok!
2014-05-05T14:59:52Z Shinmera: Xach: By the way, have you gotten to setting up your twitter bot yet and if so, do you have any feedback (at all) on Chirp?
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2014-05-05T15:00:24Z Xach: Shinmera: no :(
2014-05-05T15:00:38Z Xach: Chirp is better than the alternatives already, though, so that's good.
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2014-05-05T15:00:49Z Shinmera: Ah, do let me know if anything crosses your mind though.
2014-05-05T15:01:28Z dim: Xach: which command do you use to get the sources from the repo with the .git? and also, how do I make it so that QL pgloader version number is not the data but my version number?
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2014-05-05T15:02:05Z dim: or maybe use a tag actually, currently v3.0.99
2014-05-05T15:02:08Z Xach: dim: if you make a release tarball that unpacks into pgloader-1.2.3 or whatever, the QL file will reflect that structure.
2014-05-05T15:02:16Z Xach: Or I can use a tag, and that will show up too.
2014-05-05T15:02:29Z Xach: Tags are currently a bit of a pain and require some manual updating.
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2014-05-05T15:02:46Z Xach: Their stability is both good and bad.
2014-05-05T15:02:56Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/releases
2014-05-05T15:03:26Z Xach: dim: I use "git archive --format=tar ..." to save a tgz file and then unpack it elsewhere to test building it.
2014-05-05T15:03:29Z dim: yeah I understand, but can I make it so that you don't run git *and* have a proper release version string?
2014-05-05T15:04:00Z dim: I mean if you checkout the main branch then *release* is nil
2014-05-05T15:04:16Z Xach: dim: the easiest way on my end is if you make a release tarball and put it somewhere with a stable URL, e.g. http://dimitri.com/pgloader-latest.tgz
2014-05-05T15:04:26Z Xach: and have that unpack into pgloader-3.0.99/
2014-05-05T15:04:36Z dim: I'll do that starting at the next release then
2014-05-05T15:04:48Z Xach: Cool! Let me know what the URL is when it happens.
2014-05-05T15:04:50Z dim: http://pgloader.io/download.html --- no tarball yet
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2014-05-05T15:05:18Z dim: you will have pgloader.io/pgloader-latest.tar.gz then
2014-05-05T15:05:27Z Xach: That is very nice, thanks.
2014-05-05T15:05:30Z dim: my hope is that this next one is actually 3.1.0 ;-)
2014-05-05T15:05:44Z dim: that depends on the progress of the debian packaging mainly now
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2014-05-05T15:08:17Z dim: actually wait, I have a tag.
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2014-05-05T15:12:43Z dim: Xach: can you give me the whole command, I have trouble reproducing it here
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2014-05-05T15:16:14Z dim: ok git archive --format=tar --prefix=pgloader-3.0.99/ --output=build/pgloader-latest.tar  v3.0.99
2014-05-05T15:16:21Z dim: tried to do using --remote
2014-05-05T15:16:24Z dim: that didn't work
2014-05-05T15:17:27Z Xach: dim: I can't easily give you the exact command, but it's along the lines of "git archive --format=tar --prefix=pgloader-snap/ > pgloader.tar", and then unpacking pgloader.tar somewhere known to the asdf configuration, and loading from that.
2014-05-05T15:17:41Z dim: yeah I think I'm all set now
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2014-05-05T15:19:34Z meow271: suppose in doing a (loop for i in '(A B C D) do print i)) , is there a way to prevent nil from being printed?
2014-05-05T15:19:56Z meow271: (aside from checking for it at everytime)
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2014-05-05T15:21:00Z Xach: meow271: that is a confusing example. do you have something more realistic?
2014-05-05T15:21:32Z Xach: Depending on what you mean, one option is (loop for i in (remove nil list) ...)
2014-05-05T15:22:45Z dim: Xach: http://pgloader.io/pgloader-latest.tgz should work now
2014-05-05T15:22:52Z Xach: dim: sweet, thanks.
2014-05-05T15:23:04Z Xach gives it a whirl
2014-05-05T15:23:05Z dim: well, thank you ;-)
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2014-05-05T15:25:16Z meow271: Xach: i think your solution doesnt change anything. the problem is that the for loop looks at the end of the list
2014-05-05T15:25:52Z Xach: meow271: No, it doesn't.
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2014-05-05T15:26:14Z Xach: meow271: If you see NIL, perhaps it is the P in REPL showing you the returned value of the loop form.
2014-05-05T15:26:35Z Xach: (progn (loop for i in '(a b c) do (print i)) 42)
2014-05-05T15:26:45Z ogamita: meow271: (loop for i in '(A B C D) do (print i) finally (return (values))
2014-05-05T15:27:48Z ogamita: meow271: Xach's comment means that you should ignore it.
2014-05-05T15:28:14Z Xach: Understanding it is a good first step.
2014-05-05T15:28:15Z ogamita: In a program, where you would have other expressions following the loop, the loop result wouldn't get printed.
2014-05-05T15:28:24Z meow271: ogamita: ogamita: meaning that this is behavior that only exists when looping with print?
2014-05-05T15:28:29Z ogamita: I mean, ignore the NIL being printed :-)
2014-05-05T15:28:35Z meow271: oh ok
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2014-05-05T15:28:41Z ogamita: meow271: no, only when you use the REPL.
2014-05-05T15:29:14Z ogamita: That is, unless you are programming a REPL _command_, a function specifically designed to produce a nice output in the REPL.
2014-05-05T15:29:48Z ogamita: But notice that some implementations are quite verbose when no result is returned with (values): they print ";; no value" instead of merely NIL! :-)
2014-05-05T15:30:48Z ogamita: You may also use finally (terpri) instead, so that a newline is added at the end, so anything printed after is on another line.
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2014-05-05T15:48:57Z dim: Xach: I guess it's ok, I'm closing the lid now, let me know later if any problem
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2014-05-05T15:52:01Z Xach: dim: looks good!
2014-05-05T15:52:06Z Xach: don't close the lid! it's dark in here!
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2014-05-05T16:03:52Z hitecnologys: How does one get version of specific ASDF system?
2014-05-05T16:04:46Z Xach: hitecnologys: it's possible that the version slot in the system object is populated.
2014-05-05T16:04:53Z Xach: hitecnologys: that practice is not universal, though.
2014-05-05T16:05:24Z eudoxia: i think :depends-on (:dep1 :dep2 (:dep3 :version "3.3"))
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2014-05-05T16:06:54Z hitecnologys: Xach: I see. I was just wondering if it's possible to insert some info about which versions of various libraries my program is running on into it's output.
2014-05-05T16:07:02Z eudoxia: example usage: http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=projects/qitab/inferior-shell.git;a=blob_plain;f=inferior-shell.asd;hb=HEAD;js=1
2014-05-05T16:07:24Z hitecnologys: eudoxia: I don't need version check, I need to get the version string after system was loaded.
2014-05-05T16:07:48Z hitecnologys: s/it's/its/
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2014-05-05T16:09:58Z eudoxia: oh, my mistake
2014-05-05T16:09:59Z samebchase: dim: Just read pgloader.io Good job! :-)
2014-05-05T16:11:39Z Shinmera: dim: Not sure if you're aware, but there's a typo on pgloader.io frontpage, last section: "couple fo floats into"
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2014-05-05T16:19:18Z Xach: Shinmera: he can't hear you in here
2014-05-05T16:20:00Z Xach: hitecnologys: It is possible
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2014-05-05T16:30:40Z jasom wishes it were possible to submit bugs by e-mail, rather than having to sign up for yet another bugtracker account
2014-05-05T16:31:07Z hitecnologys: Xach: possible, but not very popular?
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2014-05-05T16:33:25Z Xach: hitecnologys: I don't know. Versions don't seem to be used a lot in meaningful ways in CL libraries (yet?)
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2014-05-05T16:33:47Z jasom: dim: what library are you using for async io?
2014-05-05T16:34:10Z hitecnologys: Xach: I see. Thanks for help.
2014-05-05T16:34:37Z Xach: hitecnologys: it could be that if one person starts using it then it will get into good shape
2014-05-05T16:35:10Z Xach: or maybe it's already in good shape and i just haven't paid attention.
2014-05-05T16:35:16Z Xach: please investigate and report back!!
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2014-05-05T16:35:37Z hitecnologys: Roger.
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2014-05-05T16:39:22Z jasom: dim: someone pointed me at this a few weeks ago, and it's impressive: https://github.com/markcox80/basic-binary-ipc  who needs C, when CFFI can directly make syscalls?
2014-05-05T16:40:09Z oGMo: presumably the people who wrote the syscalls
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2014-05-05T16:40:39Z jasom: oGMo: hmm, I would guess that overlapped-io is written in C++, but I could be wrong.
2014-05-05T16:41:22Z oGMo: jasom: perhaps, but i'm not sure that's going in the right direction ;)
2014-05-05T16:41:32Z jasom: and looking closer, it does grovel the header-files, so some C is involved.  It's still an impressive amount of work to wrap kqueue, epoll nad overlapped IO with just CFFI.
2014-05-05T16:41:47Z Viaken: jasom: Re: Submitting bugs by email. "We keep getting requests to enlarge our software!"
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2014-05-05T18:39:56Z daGrevis_: hey! i'm writing lisp parser for fun. does it make sense to quote integer?
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2014-05-05T18:41:00Z dlowe: daGrevis_: no, but there's no sense in disallowing it, either
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2014-05-05T18:41:25Z daGrevis_: dlowe, thanks
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2014-05-05T19:51:44Z PuercoPop: oi, how do I upgrade asdf? I need 3.0.3 for inferior-shell.
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2014-05-05T20:01:53Z ehu: H4ns: quick question regarding lisp.not.org: I'm seeing lots of errors regarding spamd not being able to create certain files
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2014-05-05T20:01:57Z ehu: is that normal?
2014-05-05T20:02:15Z H4ns: i would not suppose so, where do you see these errors?
2014-05-05T20:02:24Z ehu: in mail.log
2014-05-05T20:02:27Z ehu: this is one:
2014-05-05T20:02:28Z ehu: plugin: eval failed: bayes: (in learn) locker: safe_lock: cannot create tmp lockfile /nonexistent/.spamassassin/bayes.lock.lisp.not.org.26580 for /nonexistent/.spamassassin/bayes.lock: No such file or directory
2014-05-05T20:02:39Z Xach: PuercoPop: You could download asdf.lisp and load it via your init file, I think.
2014-05-05T20:03:33Z H4ns: ehu: ah, this is kind of normal if sa runs under an account with no home directory, but it would probably make sense to find out how to change the configuration to avoid the error or create a home directory.  i can't do that right now, though.
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2014-05-05T20:04:40Z ehu: H4ns: ok. I can look at creating a version of nobody *with* a home directory.
2014-05-05T20:05:22Z H4ns: ehu: please do some light research to determine whether that is TRT
2014-05-05T20:06:17Z ehu: right. doing so now.
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2014-05-05T20:15:48Z ehu: H4ns: there's a better solution: run it as the 'debian-spamd' user, I guess.
2014-05-05T20:15:53Z ehu: which does have a home directory.
2014-05-05T20:16:01Z H4ns: ehu: yeah, sounds legit
2014-05-05T20:16:17Z ehu: 1 extra option in /etc/default/spamassassin.
2014-05-05T20:16:36Z ehu: monitoring the mail log for a while to see if new errors pop up.
2014-05-05T20:17:13Z H4ns: ehu: thanks much!
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2014-05-05T20:19:10Z PuercoPop: Xach: thanks, idk why I had the mistaken idea that asdf would fetch itself when that is what quicklisp does.
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2014-05-05T20:20:52Z Xach: PuercoPop: perhaps 3.2 will have code for an HTTP client (and server, possibly with a webdav module)
2014-05-05T20:21:10Z Xach: not really
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2014-05-05T20:33:32Z rpg: PuercoPop: ASDF will fetch itself when make does! ;-)
2014-05-05T20:35:50Z wbooze: morning
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2014-05-05T20:47:35Z ehu: H4ns: more config was required, but the errors have been eliminated now.
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2014-05-05T21:22:36Z daGrevis_: whats the common name for things that macros accept? blocks?
2014-05-05T21:23:30Z Krystof: "forms"?
2014-05-05T21:23:57Z daGrevis_: maybe, idk. that's why im asking
2014-05-05T21:24:07Z H4ns: daGrevis_: "forms"
2014-05-05T21:24:28Z daGrevis_: so i was writing parser for lisp and theres this parse method. it can handle ints, booleans, string etc. but then there are lists
2014-05-05T21:24:35Z daGrevis_: oh wait maybe forms are lists
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2014-05-05T21:32:38Z pjb: daGrevis_: really, macros may accept any kind of data.
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2014-05-05T21:32:52Z pjb: daGrevis_: you could have a macro that would take a form, but it's not necessary.
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2014-05-05T21:33:38Z pjb: For example, a macro could just take a symbol, to name something.  Ok, a mere symbol is a form, when it's a variable, but perhaps not this symbol.
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2014-05-05T21:38:44Z |3b|: glossary entry for 'form' in clhs doesn't seem to describe the things passed to macros very well, though defmacro page specifies that the argument is a 'form'
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2014-05-05T21:39:39Z pjb: For example, a dotted list is not a form.  (macroexpand-1 '(m (sin . 42))) --> (sin 42) is a possible macro, that doesn't take a form, but still returns a form.
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2014-05-05T21:41:16Z puchacz: hi, parenscript question please. I have: (ps:ps (ps:getprop obj foo)) ---> obj[foo];
2014-05-05T21:41:23Z puchacz: fine, this is what I want. then
2014-05-05T21:41:38Z puchacz: (ps:ps (ps:chain x (ps:getprop obj foo))) ----> x.getprop(obj, foo);
2014-05-05T21:41:46Z puchacz: and I wanted x.obj[foo]
2014-05-05T21:41:51Z |3b|: s/chain/@/ ?
2014-05-05T21:42:07Z |3b| doesn't remember which is which
2014-05-05T21:42:44Z puchacz: |3b|, that's the one. thanks
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2014-05-05T21:46:12Z nightshade427_: What is a good portable library for shelling out to OS?
2014-05-05T21:46:23Z nightshade427_: For commands and such
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2014-05-05T21:48:44Z nightshade427_: Should I just use asdf run-shell-command?
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2014-05-05T21:49:22Z nightshade427_: Sounds like it may be deprecated?
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2014-05-05T21:50:40Z Xach: nightshade427_: What kind of features do you need?
2014-05-05T21:51:22Z nightshade427_: Basic call an external binary, it does some work, I grab output from stdout of the command
2014-05-05T21:51:42Z nightshade427_: Async would be nice too :)
2014-05-05T21:51:56Z nightshade427_: (Non blocking)
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2014-05-05T21:57:03Z nightshade427_: The non blocking as important :)
2014-05-05T21:57:18Z nightshade427_: The non blocking isn't as important
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2014-05-05T21:57:43Z Xach: When I want to do something like that,  I ususually use sb-ext:run-program. I don't know what might do all that in a portable way, sorry.
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2014-05-05T22:05:40Z nightshade427_: Okay, thanks :) any recommended generic one? Trivial-shell? Something like that?
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2014-05-05T22:08:53Z rpg: nightshade427_: You should probably use Fare's UIOP:RUN-PROGRAM. Only Fare knows how to run programs everywhere; it's a deep black art.
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2014-05-05T22:09:24Z nightshade427_: Great, thanks for the recommendation ;)
2014-05-05T22:09:54Z rpg: Probably best to grab from bleeding edge ASDF for now. Will be releasing, but not till tomorrow (VNC is being Bad To Me).
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2014-05-05T22:10:54Z rpg: nightshade427_: UIOP RUN-PROGRAM runs a program, not necessarily through a shell (this makes sense because Windows doesn't really have a shell).
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2014-05-05T22:11:15Z rpg: RUN-SHELL-COMMAND is less portable than RUN-PROGRAM, unless you promise never to use Windows ;-)
2014-05-05T22:11:29Z foom: windows has so many shells!
2014-05-05T22:12:09Z nightshade427_: No windows here all Linux
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2014-05-05T22:13:15Z foom: There's cmd.exe, command.com, powershell, and sometimes even bash!
2014-05-05T22:13:18Z nightshade427_: Thanks Xach and rpg
2014-05-05T22:13:25Z nightshade427_: Just what I needed
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2014-05-05T22:13:46Z rpg: nightshade427_: then you can relatively portably use a shell.  But there are still some dragons there: look into RUN-PROGRAM and despair.  I know I did....
2014-05-05T22:14:15Z rpg: nightshade427_: If you have any trouble, LMK: I'd like to make sure that the UIOP docs are as good as possible.
2014-05-05T22:14:21Z rpg: (off for now, though)
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2014-05-05T22:14:51Z nightshade427_: Will do, thanks again :)
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2014-05-05T23:25:09Z pillton: jasom: No C++ is involved in BASIC-BINARY-IPC. It is all done via CFFI.
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2014-05-05T23:27:15Z pillton: jasom: The only issue I had with the CFFI groveller is that I couldn't grovel WSAIDs on Windows.
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2014-05-05T23:34:23Z pillton: How is the conference going?
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2014-05-05T23:50:02Z Xach: Pretty great it seems
2014-05-05T23:52:05Z pillton: Does Jan Moringen visit #lisp?
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2014-05-05T23:54:25Z Xach: I don't think so, but perhaps I just don't know his nick
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2014-05-06T05:27:57Z dmiles_afk: does anyone knwo the price range of ACL9.0 for a hobbiest that wants to use lasrge memory models?
2014-05-06T05:28:59Z dmiles_afk: arround 20gb heap the last time i ran the thing i like to run
2014-05-06T05:29:04Z Bike: well, looks like they have a $100 student edition
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2014-05-06T05:29:41Z dmiles_afk: i am confusd that is says "has a few more limitations than the other version"
2014-05-06T05:29:57Z dmiles_afk: (the student edition)
2014-05-06T05:30:21Z Bike: it also says to email them for more information, perhaps you should do so
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2014-05-06T05:30:50Z dmiles_afk: i guess i am wondering if a really good copy is under 500$ vs $5000 (asking so i wont be suprised when they tell me)
2014-05-06T05:31:43Z dmiles_afk: 500$ might be worth it .. but $5000 might be over the top :)
2014-05-06T05:32:27Z Bike: not many people in this channel use the commercial lisps, you should just ask t heir sales reps
2014-05-06T05:32:44Z dmiles_afk: (if i have to ask them how much it is.. i might not be able to afford it_
2014-05-06T05:33:06Z dmiles_afk: right on.. will do
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2014-05-06T05:34:53Z dmiles_afk: "The standard commercial product is about eight thousand dollars, plus a runtime licensing fee. There are cheaper options if you don't want to compile standalone executeables, but you really have to dig at Allegro's sales staff or you'll never hear about them. If you do push and you don't need to distribute exes, you save about six thousand dollars a seat."
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2014-05-06T05:36:50Z zRecursive: What are the differences between SBCL and ACL ?
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2014-05-06T05:39:59Z Bike: ACL is definitely priced with organizations in mind, dmiles
2014-05-06T05:40:21Z Bike: zRecursive: that's a pretty broad question. they're totally different implementatinos.
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2014-05-06T05:42:38Z zRecursive: Bike: If we want to use CL to implement a project, is it worthy using a commercial one instead of open-source one ?
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2014-05-06T05:43:03Z Bike: depends on the project, obviously
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2014-05-06T05:43:18Z Bike: allegro has a big manual for their implementation up for free browsing, you can see what features they offer
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2014-05-06T05:43:33Z Bike: and, again, email their reps for more detailed information, if you need it. i'm sure they'll be happy to sell you things.
2014-05-06T05:43:50Z zRecursive: sure
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2014-05-06T05:47:57Z zRecursive: I am curious what CL impl. does "Gensym G2(http://www.gensym.com/)" use ?
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2014-05-06T06:05:59Z jusss: （values 'a 'b 'c)  "compiled closure" ???
2014-05-06T06:06:06Z jusss: why not a b c
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2014-05-06T06:07:04Z sellout: jusss: What is your question?
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2014-05-06T06:07:52Z jusss: sellout: (values 'a 'b 'c) shouldn't echo a b c?
2014-05-06T06:09:04Z sellout: jusss: It should.
2014-05-06T06:09:33Z jusss: sellout: but it doesn't
2014-05-06T06:09:53Z jusss: sellout: mit/gun schem and gnu common lisp
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2014-05-06T06:09:55Z Bike: as much as we love the guessing game, perhaps you could provide more information.
2014-05-06T06:10:08Z Bike: GNU common lisp as in gcl? it's trash, use something else
2014-05-06T06:10:18Z H4ns: jusss: scheme is not discussed in this channel, gcl is obsolete and unmaintained.
2014-05-06T06:10:26Z sellout: jusss: What Bike said, and scheme is not CL.
2014-05-06T06:10:27Z H4ns: jusss: try sbcl, clozure cl or even clisp
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2014-05-06T06:11:49Z jusss: compliled-closure 11 ("global" #x3b) #x5e #x2766182 #x340f934
2014-05-06T06:12:53Z mal_: and, if you pardon the small parenthesis about scheme, it doesn't have support multiple values
2014-05-06T06:13:00Z mal_: *support for
2014-05-06T06:13:31Z sellout: jusss: That’s what GCL gives you when you type `(values 'a 'b 'c)` at the REPL?
2014-05-06T06:13:46Z jusss: sellout: yes
2014-05-06T06:13:58Z sellout: jusss: Get rid of GCL.
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2014-05-06T06:13:58Z Bike: seriously, don't use gcl.
2014-05-06T06:14:18Z sellout: I have 9 CL implementations on my machine – GCL isn’t one of them.
2014-05-06T06:14:30Z jusss: Bike: which is better for win?
2014-05-06T06:14:45Z Bike: ccl's pretty good on windows, i hear
2014-05-06T06:14:51Z Bike: or clisp, i guess
2014-05-06T06:14:58Z sellout: I sympathize, though – people look for a GNU implementation, and that’s what seems reasonable. GCL was what I tried at first, too.
2014-05-06T06:15:47Z zRecursive: GNU has CLISP now
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2014-05-06T06:16:24Z jusss: how to make a function return a list? for example , return a list of fibonacci sequence
2014-05-06T06:16:32Z sellout: zRecursive: Yeah, but it’s not called GNU Common Lisp.
2014-05-06T06:16:39Z H4ns: jusss: return a list
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2014-05-06T06:16:51Z H4ns: jusss: (defun foo () (list 1 2 3))
2014-05-06T06:16:52Z sellout: jusss: You don’t have to explicitly return.
2014-05-06T06:17:08Z sellout: CL returns the value of the last form
2014-05-06T06:18:14Z zRecursive: (princ (values 'a 'b 'c)) => A
2014-05-06T06:19:19Z splittist heads to the mystery presentation at els2014
2014-05-06T06:19:35Z splittist: according to mega it's a mystery to him what he'll be saying...
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2014-05-06T06:21:40Z Bike: a double blind presentation? innovative
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2014-05-06T06:23:48Z jusss: is there a list variable? give a list a name, even though the list changed, it can be called by name?
2014-05-06T06:24:13Z H4ns: jusss: why don't you read through a beginner text on common lisp?
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2014-05-06T06:26:29Z phadthai: jusss: notable and freely accessible are Practical Common Lisp, and Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation
2014-05-06T06:26:43Z phadthai: the latter is more introductory
2014-05-06T06:27:10Z jusss: i see
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2014-05-06T06:28:14Z phadthai: I'm not sure if I understand your question, but if you want to store a list in a variable, that can be done, of course
2014-05-06T06:28:42Z phadthai: using defparameter, defvar, let or setf
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2014-05-06T06:29:16Z phadthai: also of interest is http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm but it's more useful as a reference than as an introduction
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2014-05-06T06:34:42Z jusss: thx
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2014-05-06T10:41:41Z otwieracz: Is paste.lisp.org dead? :(
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2014-05-06T10:47:18Z _death: works for me
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2014-05-06T11:04:53Z phadthai: otwieracz: I also get connection timeout, possibly some routes work and others don't depending on isp/network
2014-05-06T11:05:07Z phadthai: hmm I get a ping response though so maybe something else
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2014-05-06T11:06:19Z otwieracz: Already up and running for me.
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2014-05-06T11:08:51Z phadthai: it was still timing out but it now just loaded here
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2014-05-06T11:11:41Z stassats: well
2014-05-06T11:11:55Z stassats: it crashes when displaying paste 141077
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2014-05-06T11:20:10Z JuanDaugherty: doesn't appear to be routing for me in western ny with time warner
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2014-05-06T11:30:57Z leo2007: In `(+ 2 `(* 3 ,@(4))), which backquote form is eval'd first?
2014-05-06T11:31:54Z loke: the ,@ is evaluated by the outer backgoute
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2014-05-06T11:32:19Z loke: to evaluate it in the context of the inner backquote you need `( ... `( ... ,,@(4)))
2014-05-06T11:32:28Z leo2007: the spec says the innermost is eval'd first, what does it mean?
2014-05-06T11:32:39Z loke: leo2007: Well, I could be wrong :-)
2014-05-06T11:32:45Z loke: Unfortunately, I have to leave the office now
2014-05-06T11:33:25Z leo2007: loke: thanks anyway ;)
2014-05-06T11:33:27Z stassats: everything is broken
2014-05-06T11:34:26Z stassats: i can't boot 3.14 kernel, upgrading grub killed booting completely, lisppaste fails to display a paste, and while trying to fix that, sbcl got a broken readtable which is triggered by lisppasted
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2014-05-06T11:42:57Z stassats: it is actually slime that got broken by a change in sbcl, triggered by lisppaste
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2014-05-06T12:02:40Z Viaken: Sounds like a bad day, stassats. Just go back to bed and try again tomorrow.
2014-05-06T12:03:21Z stassats: fixed slime, and fixed lisppaste, got a backup grub from another hard-disk, and the 3.14 kernel can go to hell
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2014-05-06T12:04:44Z stassats: but common-lisp.net is definitely broken
2014-05-06T12:06:26Z stassats: and a fixed paste.lisp.org is up, as long as you can connect to it (couldn't hot-patch, because a typed an unbound variable into the repl, causing a restart)
2014-05-06T12:07:00Z stassats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141077 can be displayed again
2014-05-06T12:07:06Z stassats: or rather, for the first time
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2014-05-06T12:07:35Z stassats: took only 3 months to notice
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2014-05-06T12:12:16Z hitecnologys: stassats: what happened?
2014-05-06T12:12:27Z stassats: to what?
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2014-05-06T12:12:48Z hitecnologys: > fixed slime, and fixed lisppaste, got a backup grub from another hard-disk, and the 3.14 kernel can go to hell
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2014-05-06T12:13:17Z stassats: you have to be more specific, it's 4 different problems
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2014-05-06T12:13:25Z stassats: and the latter two are off-topic
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2014-05-06T12:15:21Z hitecnologys: What happened to lisppaste and common-lisp.net that made you say you fixed first one and the latter is broken?
2014-05-06T12:15:54Z stassats: common-lisp.net network connection is broken, to see if there was a problem with lisppaste, i connected to it and noticed a backtrace
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2014-05-06T12:16:25Z stassats: fixed the error causing it, and noticed that it took two tries to do git pull from github on common-lisp.net
2014-05-06T12:16:50Z hitecnologys: And what's with that 141077 paste you mentioned?
2014-05-06T12:17:15Z stassats: i'm not going to explain everything!
2014-05-06T12:17:43Z hitecnologys: Not even in general?
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2014-05-06T12:17:52Z stassats: nope
2014-05-06T12:18:08Z hitecnologys: I see. OK, then.
2014-05-06T12:18:09Z stassats: if you are so curious, you can find out for yourself
2014-05-06T12:18:13Z hitecnologys: s/,//
2014-05-06T12:18:42Z hitecnologys: Nah, I'm too lazy to do that.
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2014-05-06T12:34:30Z meow271: im still having trouble understanding loops, but im trying to write a loop that traverses a list, has an initial assignment in the loop and waits for 1 specific event to happen. if the event happens, do one operation and exit the function
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2014-05-06T12:37:02Z aerique: meow271: (loop for item in '(a b c) initially (format t "hi~%") when (equal item 'b) do (format t "bye~%") (loop-finish))
2014-05-06T12:37:38Z samebchase: meow271: you can paste the fragment of code you are having trouble with
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2014-05-06T13:16:57Z leo2007: hi
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2014-05-06T13:26:38Z meow271: hello
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2014-05-06T14:31:13Z meow271: is there a find function that returns the index of a key in a list?
2014-05-06T14:31:33Z |3b|: clhs position
2014-05-06T14:31:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pos_p.htm
2014-05-06T14:31:49Z meow271: |3b| thanks!
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2014-05-06T15:25:52Z dkcl: Hmm. I seem to be having some trouble with USOCKET
2014-05-06T15:26:14Z dkcl: http://paste.lisp.org/+31W3
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2014-05-06T15:26:39Z dkcl: I'm getting strings from a TCP socket word by word, not as whole strings
2014-05-06T15:27:08Z mood: That's because you are using READ
2014-05-06T15:27:21Z dkcl: I suspected as much, but I'm really not sure what I should use
2014-05-06T15:27:36Z mood: READ reads one Lisp object from a stream, in this case they're all read as symbols
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2014-05-06T15:28:02Z mood: You can use READ-LINE to read lines from a stream, or READ-CHAR to read a single character
2014-05-06T15:28:21Z dkcl is amazed he had actually forgotten about READ-LINE
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2014-05-06T15:28:37Z dkcl is embarassed
2014-05-06T15:28:40Z dkcl: mood: Thanks!
2014-05-06T15:28:49Z dlowe: read-line kind of sucks on TCP because it blocks
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2014-05-06T15:31:28Z mood: dlowe: Yes, that can be a problem. If what you are writing is an IRC bot (which I guessed from the paste), it's not too much of a problem because you are going to be responding to IRC messages (You can use threads if you also want to asynchronously send things to the stream)
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2014-05-06T15:32:20Z dkcl: Indeed
2014-05-06T15:32:25Z mood: In the IRC library I've written (https://github.com/jorams/birch) I also use READ-LINE
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2014-05-06T15:38:56Z drewc would like to say that IRC packets are not Lisp syntax at all, so using READ'ers makes little sense.
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2014-05-06T15:39:51Z hitecnologys: Xach: as far as I can tell from quick glance at ASDF system definitions from all quicklisp packages available, many packages don't use unified version format. If anybody wants to start using versions, someone should probably make a standard that defines one (or several) acceptable version strings format(s).
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2014-05-06T15:40:35Z hitecnologys: Xach: I'm not done yet, though. Still grepping files and plotting graphs.
2014-05-06T15:40:40Z mood: drewc: What do you mean? READ-LINE doesn't seem related to lisp syntax at all.
2014-05-06T15:40:53Z drewc: I will make a standard now! it better be followed! :P
2014-05-06T15:41:32Z drewc has just woken up so is likely not making sense even to himself
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2014-05-06T15:43:10Z hitecnologys: drewc: well, don't. My nonsense must be filtered and preprocessed before interpreting.
2014-05-06T15:43:44Z drewc: mood: true, and if you think of it as ASCII text, formed in lines .... then it may work....
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2014-05-06T15:45:04Z mood: drewc: Well, IRC is ASCII text, separated by CRLF (I use flexi-streams for proper eol-style). Most servers and clients nowadays don't have a problem with UTF-8, though.
2014-05-06T15:46:08Z drewc: so, read-line only works if you tell your lisp that the stream is Windows based for end-of-line?
2014-05-06T15:46:24Z drewc: flexi streams yeah, that workd
2014-05-06T15:46:31Z drewc: works
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2014-05-06T15:47:04Z mood: Well, if your lisp implementation uses LF as end of line it also works, because LF is an illegal character inside messages. You might have to strip out the CR part
2014-05-06T15:47:06Z Xach: hitecnologys: ASDF places some constraints on what it considers an acceptable version string.
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2014-05-06T15:47:53Z drewc: as does threads and sockets ... so why use READ-LINE at all when we are avoiding the standard in general? :P
2014-05-06T15:49:06Z enn: Good morning ... I see three similar libaries in quicklisp: inotify, cl-inotify, and cl-fsnotify. Can anyone recommend one of these over the others?
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2014-05-06T15:49:37Z mood: Because it's a single function call, meaning you won't have to find the line boundaries yourself. It's just convenient
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2014-05-06T15:50:46Z hitecnologys: Xach: sure thing, but both 2014.01.01 and 0.0.1 are acceptable version strings. However, none of these seem acceptable to me (except for, maybe, second one, as it does tell me something about state of the project and is at least rememberable).
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2014-05-06T15:51:16Z Xach: hitecnologys: No, it will complain about 2014.01.01
2014-05-06T15:52:27Z hitecnologys: Xach: aha, my bad. 20140101 should do the trick then.
2014-05-06T15:52:59Z hitecnologys: Xach: or anytihing like that, I think you get the idea.
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2014-05-06T15:53:43Z Xach: I don't. 0.0.1 doesn't tell you anything unless the author and you agree on what it means.
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2014-05-06T15:57:19Z hitecnologys: That's the point. Someone should define some kind of standard that would specify default meaning of versions so authors could just use that meaning instead of inventing their own version naming schemes all the time. There should also be a possibility to overwrite the standard by defining version explaination somewhere in the project (or in the place defined by the standard).
2014-05-06T15:58:07Z hitecnologys: (and yes, I like standards that much)
2014-05-06T15:58:45Z hlavaty: enn: you can also run shell command "inotifywait -m /tmp" and read and parse the output; that way it will even work with lisps that dont have native threads:-)
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2014-05-06T16:00:34Z enn: true
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2014-05-06T16:01:31Z drewc: mood: fair enough. I just have come to prefer streams that are a certain colour and avoiding READ* in general... for 99% of the time it matters not.
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2014-05-06T16:16:56Z oleo: what's the problem with (defun count-nodes (exp)
2014-05-06T16:16:56Z oleo:   "return the total number of non-nil elems in exp"
2014-05-06T16:16:56Z oleo:   (cond
2014-05-06T16:16:56Z oleo:                 ((null exp) 1)
2014-05-06T16:16:56Z oleo:                 ((consp exp) 1)
2014-05-06T16:16:57Z oleo:                 (t (+
2014-05-06T16:16:59Z oleo:                                 (count-nodes (car exp))
2014-05-06T16:17:01Z oleo:                                 (count-nodes (cdr exp))))))
2014-05-06T16:17:03Z oleo: ups
2014-05-06T16:17:05Z H4ns: oleo: use paste.lisp.org
2014-05-06T16:17:11Z oleo: ok wait
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2014-05-06T16:17:37Z fortitude: hitecnologys: it seems like the less-involved issue at hand isn't so much semantic versions, as being able to reliably order them
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2014-05-06T16:17:54Z Bike: well here's one: you return 1 on nulls, duh
2014-05-06T16:18:12Z fortitude: hitecnologys: if you can do that, than anybody with dependencies can choose when they'd like to update (based on whatever scheme the dep's author is using)
2014-05-06T16:18:19Z Bike: and you try to recur when it's /not/ a cons, this is dumb
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2014-05-06T16:19:00Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142420
2014-05-06T16:19:20Z oleo: even if i don't return 1 on nulls.....
2014-05-06T16:19:40Z oleo: even if i use listp instead of consp.....
2014-05-06T16:19:43Z Xach: oleo: why do you return 1 on consp?
2014-05-06T16:19:47Z Bike: look, you return 1 on conses and then try to recur on conses, you didn't think about this at all
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2014-05-06T16:20:51Z jasom: oleo: also it's not clear if exp is to be treated as a tree or list
2014-05-06T16:21:02Z ggole: Adding one for a cons is the right idea, but doing it while excluding the recursion is a mistake.
2014-05-06T16:21:20Z oleo: ah
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2014-05-06T16:21:34Z jasom: ggole: you want 1 for non-null, not 1 for consp; atoms are also non-null
2014-05-06T16:21:59Z ggole: Depends on the definition of elems, I guess
2014-05-06T16:22:32Z jasom: if exp is supposed to be treated as a list, then it's completely unambiguous, as what the elements of a list of is well defined
2014-05-06T16:22:37Z hitecnologys: fortitude: indeed that sounds like a good idea.
2014-05-06T16:22:55Z oleo: right exp is a list.....
2014-05-06T16:23:37Z ggole: Then why are you recursing in the the list elements?
2014-05-06T16:24:34Z jasom: oleo: rename car and cdr to "first" and "rest" if you aren't familiar with what car and cdr do; it will become immidiately clear what's wrong with this.
2014-05-06T16:25:49Z jasom: (also you'll want the (null exp) case to return 0, not 1, as the terminating nil is not considered an element of the list, but that's not even remotely the biggest problem with what you have so far)
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2014-05-06T16:41:06Z meow271: is sort and stable-sort assumed to using something better than a avg: O(n^2) algorithm?
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2014-05-06T16:44:25Z Bike: well, probably. sbcl uses merge sort
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2014-05-06T16:49:10Z dlowe: meow271: there's https://github.com/dlowe-net/cl-sort if you want more sorts
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2014-05-06T16:51:17Z meow271: dlowe: thanks
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2014-05-06T16:52:46Z meow271: ummmm does lisp do any magic allowing these algorithms to work with lists
2014-05-06T16:52:48Z meow271: ?
2014-05-06T16:53:10Z jasom: meow271: merge-sort is trivial on lists
2014-05-06T16:53:11Z dlowe: (coerce foo 'vector)
2014-05-06T16:53:42Z meow271: jasom: touche
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2014-05-06T16:56:19Z jasom: Though each split becomes O(n) instead of O(1) it doesn't change the overall complexity, and it requires less extra space than a vector merge-sort (on the other-hand the total space for a vector merge-sort will be less even after accounting for the extra space, if you are using a specialized vector that the implementation can handle efficiently)
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2014-05-06T17:20:39Z Vivitron: meow271: quicksort is a bit tricky on lists but doable: just accessing every element by it's index would grow with n^2, but that can be avoided by holding the current cdr as you walk the list.
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2014-05-06T17:23:54Z meow271: noted
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2014-05-06T17:55:10Z jasom: Vivitron: doesn't seem tricky at all.  (loop for item in list if (< item radix) collect item into lower else collect item into upper finally return (values lower upper))
2014-05-06T17:55:35Z Vivitron: jasom: quicksort also sorts in place
2014-05-06T17:55:40Z jasom: Vivitron: obviously you'd want to do a in-place version of that
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2014-05-06T17:56:51Z jasom: Vivitron: with rplacd and rplca you can do it similar as in-place
2014-05-06T17:57:15Z jasom: Vivitron: and every quicksort I've seen requires O(n) extra space
2014-05-06T17:58:13Z Vivitron: jasom: I believe quicksort is supposed to rotate the elements in place
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2014-05-06T17:58:14Z jasom: since you have O(n) recursions in the worst-case and it's not tail-recursive
2014-05-06T17:58:31Z Vivitron: jasom: ah.
2014-05-06T17:59:00Z jasom: Quicksort worst-case is O(n) space and O(n^2) time
2014-05-06T17:59:26Z jasom: a well implemented one will have nearly nil chance of seeing that on non-malicious data though.
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2014-05-06T18:00:06Z Vivitron: jasom: by tricky I may mean that more likely than not if you see something labelled quicksort for lists it will either cons new lists or access every element by index
2014-05-06T18:00:54Z jasom: Vivitron: well that's dumb; any divide-and-conquer sort on lists is easy to do without doing that
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2014-05-06T18:03:43Z jasom: (loop while list with lower = nil with upper = nil for (start . rest) = list if (< start radix) (setf (cdr list) lower) (setf (cdr list) upper) do (setf list rest))
2014-05-06T18:04:01Z jasom: there's the in-place split
2014-05-06T18:04:09Z Vivitron: jasom: unrelated: I made an implementation of an alternate syntax for symbol package names for fun. I used the regular symbol syntax, where the prefix is looked up in the current *package*
2014-05-06T18:04:57Z jasom: Vivitron: how do you specify e.g. cl-user if it's not imported into the current *package*?
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2014-05-06T18:05:04Z jasom: is that impossible?
2014-05-06T18:05:18Z Vivitron: jasom: it defaults to the global package name
2014-05-06T18:05:52Z Vivitron: jasom: so cl-user:bar would look up my-package:cl-user, find that the symbol doesn't exist or doesn't have a custom package reference, then use cl-user
2014-05-06T18:05:58Z jasom: So each package now has an additional namespace for packages?
2014-05-06T18:06:44Z Vivitron: jasom: that's a way to look at it
2014-05-06T18:07:05Z Bike: you should do like whoever was proposing and have the normal package names be keywords
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2014-05-06T18:07:16Z jasom: Bike: that was me
2014-05-06T18:07:36Z Bike: there you go then
2014-05-06T18:07:53Z jasom: And I'm assuming Vivitron is aware of it, which is why he's talking to me about his syntax
2014-05-06T18:08:04Z Vivitron: that's right
2014-05-06T18:08:30Z Bike: i'll show myself out, then
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2014-05-06T18:09:25Z jasom: The symbols-as-package-names was just to try it out; I was reading an old c.l.l thread that was talking about package-name issues and someone mentioned "We solved the name-space clash for symbols by having packages" which led me to use symbols.  Then I realized I needed a cannonical global namespace for symbols-as-identifiers and said "oh, that's what KEYWORD is for"
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2014-05-06T18:09:36Z Vivitron: Bike: it's fine, I thought jasom's idea was interesting and wanted to see what it would be like without changing symbol syntax
2014-05-06T18:09:59Z jasom: Vivitron: someone did a file-local or package-local nicknames without hooking into the reader, I think.
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2014-05-06T18:10:32Z Vivitron: jasom: I also implemented readtable-local at the same time as package symbol, but haven't played with it yet
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2014-05-06T18:11:07Z Vivitron: jasom: but, I've only implemented them as reader references, no package-nicknames and friends
2014-05-06T18:11:11Z jasom: https://github.com/3b/package-local-nicknames
2014-05-06T18:11:54Z jasom: oh, it looks like that got folded into sbcl: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Package_002dLocal-Nicknames
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2014-05-06T18:13:27Z Vivitron: I think I came across such ideas from sbcl's package-local-nicknames
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2014-05-06T18:15:16Z jasom: The thing that made me decide the syntax needed to change was the desire for heirarchal packages so e.g. foo:bar::baz would work
2014-05-06T18:16:38Z Vivitron: I was using a package per file setup, and they all wanted the to use the same nicknames, which was a bit repetitive with package-local-nicknames, so I was considering the merits of importable nicknames
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2014-05-06T18:16:59Z jasom: That would allow a larger system to easily compartmentalize itself (which can reduce bugs in your macrology) while not needing to do the foo.bar.baz or foo/bar/baz package name hack (What if you had my-frabjous-http-library/client and wanted to nickname it to http/client)
2014-05-06T18:17:31Z mood: jasom: I think there's a typo in the repo description of spm-reader on Github. "Toy symbol reader for lisT that uses..."
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2014-05-06T18:17:39Z jasom: mood: oops
2014-05-06T18:17:51Z jasom: mood: someone wanted to see it so I added a quick readme and put it up on github
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2014-05-06T18:20:03Z jasom: oh, it's in the short description, not the readme
2014-05-06T18:20:17Z mood: Yes, sorry if that wasn't clear
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2014-05-06T18:20:35Z jasom: mood: I just did a C-f on the gh page and found it, no biggie
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2014-05-06T18:22:17Z jasom: Vivitron: if you exported the symbols used for aliases in my system and then used that package it should inherit as well, though I haven't tried that
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2014-05-06T18:23:55Z Vivitron: jasom: it's how I imagined using your setup, I don't think I really understood your intention until just now:)
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2014-05-06T18:32:37Z jasom: Vivitron: the lack of true heirarchy for the package system was an annoyance, along with the name-clashing.  Solving the first solves the second for free.
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2014-05-06T18:38:09Z msmith: hey everyone.  Can anyone give me an example of how to use the listen directive with postmodern?
2014-05-06T18:39:27Z H4ns: msmith: i wrote some docs for that, did you check that out?  does it not help?
2014-05-06T18:39:38Z H4ns: msmith: https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern/commit/bc35bb49b0948b0bdcd924a36b3b945d4b1b5cb6
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2014-05-06T18:47:29Z msmith: H4ns: I'm looking for a basic example of how to use it in code.  I mean, do you use it with query or by itself like (:listen "mychannel")?
2014-05-06T18:47:42Z msmith: which I tried btw
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2014-05-06T18:49:17Z fiveop: Similarly, I'm looking for a well written project using common-qt, that is more complex than the tutorials. I have a few questions, I hope to answer, by looking at it.
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2014-05-06T18:52:43Z msmith: H4ns:  would you recommend just using the wait-for-notification function?
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2014-05-06T19:02:54Z H4ns: msmith: i'll be back in 30
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2014-05-06T19:15:50Z H4ns: msmith: i've been using wait-for-notification
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2014-05-06T19:16:32Z H4ns: msmith: and (pomo:execute (:listen 'the-channel))
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2014-05-06T19:22:26Z msmith: H4ns:  Thanks, is there a way to use this code without putting it in a loop an busy waiting?
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2014-05-06T19:24:32Z msmith: I guess you would use it in conjunction with wait-for-notification
2014-05-06T19:24:35Z H4ns: msmith: wait-for-notification waits for something to happen.
2014-05-06T19:24:49Z H4ns: msmith: you call listen once, then you loop over wait-for-notification
2014-05-06T19:25:13Z msmith: ok gotcha, thanks.
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2014-05-06T19:26:10Z puchacz: hi, I am playing with cl-smtp:send-email (backed - postfix) and whatever I send to myself, it goes to spam....
2014-05-06T19:26:29Z H4ns: msmith: i also wrote this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142423
2014-05-06T19:26:37Z puchacz: is there a tutorial on how to build messages that they are not filtered out by gmail please?
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2014-05-06T19:44:39Z interlocutor: puchacz: you mean how to spam gmail with unsolicited messages? have you tried fucking yourself yet?
2014-05-06T19:45:23Z puchacz: I would say mind your language dude
2014-05-06T19:45:55Z interlocutor: I'd say get a real job.
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2014-05-06T19:48:08Z p_l: I'd say that such a question doesn't necessarily mean someone is spamming. Spammers unfortunately made it problematic on people who send legitimate emails as well
2014-05-06T19:49:51Z interlocutor: there is no such thing as a legitimate unsolicited email message.
2014-05-06T19:50:11Z mood: That's true, but he never said anything indicating it was unsolicited email
2014-05-06T19:50:13Z _death: if you ever tried sending, say, a signup verification form.. you'd know that gmail filters may not be the best friends
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2014-05-06T19:50:46Z interlocutor: perhaps I'm just ignorant of some edgecases I've never experienced myself.
2014-05-06T19:50:48Z p_l: hell, even a mailing list that you signed up for is hard, which is partially how MailChimp gets its clients
2014-05-06T19:51:02Z puchacz: _death: I am totally green about emails; I am reading this for example: http://serverfault.com/questions/48428/how-to-send-emails-and-avoid-them-being-classified-as-spam
2014-05-06T19:51:07Z interlocutor: I've never had an issue with gmail filters and I work with a lot of clients who send out newsletters and such
2014-05-06T19:51:28Z interlocutor: but yeah, pretty much 99% sure this guy is trying to send unsolicited mail
2014-05-06T19:51:28Z puchacz: I don't even know if I should be experimenting repeatedly - maybe gmail will "learn" that my domain is to be blacklisted
2014-05-06T19:51:47Z Xach has problems with lots of cron emails ending up gmail filtered
2014-05-06T19:52:08Z puchacz: interlocutor: please stop spamminng the channel - I am trying to discuss a technical problem here
2014-05-06T19:52:30Z p_l: I have several notification emails that only go through because I manually added a filter that makes them non-spam
2014-05-06T19:52:32Z interlocutor: it would seem to me that the only one spamming anyone else is you
2014-05-06T19:52:45Z interlocutor: but I digress, whatever
2014-05-06T19:52:55Z p_l: anyway, let's go back to actual question, which involved cl-smtp
2014-05-06T19:52:59Z puchacz: Xach: do you use postfix out of the box?
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2014-05-06T19:54:39Z puchacz: and if your cron has to send say 100 messages, do you just fire them out en masse? or any pauses between them etc.?
2014-05-06T19:54:39Z Xach: puchacz: no
2014-05-06T19:54:43Z rszeno: puchacz, https://support.google.com/mail/answer/9008?hl=en
2014-05-06T19:55:24Z puchacz: rszeno: true, but it is only good if I send these messages to myself :-)
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2014-05-06T19:55:46Z puchacz: Xach: no - not postfix out of the box you mean?
2014-05-06T19:56:13Z Xach: puchacz: I don't use postfix, no.
2014-05-06T19:56:26Z puchacz: can you elaborate please?
2014-05-06T19:56:42Z rszeno: send to you and look to the the headers, see plain text
2014-05-06T19:56:43Z puchacz: maybe I'd better be without cl-smtp/postfix altogether
2014-05-06T19:57:32Z Xach: puchacz: How can I elaborate? I don't use postfix.
2014-05-06T19:57:34Z H4ns: mandrill is nice, and they have a json/rest api
2014-05-06T19:57:45Z puchacz: Xach: what do you use instead
2014-05-06T19:58:11Z Xach: puchacz: I use exim most of the time. when i was accepting incoming mail I configured qmail to do it.
2014-05-06T19:58:40Z H4ns: uh oh, i thought i was the last exim user
2014-05-06T19:59:06Z Xach uses exim because it's the default on debian
2014-05-06T19:59:28Z H4ns: i have an elaborate custom configuration that i've been carrying around for years
2014-05-06T19:59:29Z puchacz: do I have to use some "domain authentication" mechanisms?
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2014-05-06T20:00:00Z H4ns: puchacz: if you don't want to become an email expert, i'd really recommend using a delivery service like mandrill
2014-05-06T20:00:08Z H4ns: puchacz: it is free for light use anyway
2014-05-06T20:00:19Z puchacz: H4ns: yeah, I'd rather be a programmer
2014-05-06T20:00:31Z puchacz: mandrill then?
2014-05-06T20:00:38Z mood: mandrill and mailgun both offer generous free plans
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2014-05-06T20:00:56Z Xach: H4ns: you are the last in that category i'm sure.
2014-05-06T20:00:58Z H4ns: puchacz: mandrill i can only recommend it based on positive experience with it.
2014-05-06T20:01:52Z puchacz: I don't have tons of emails to send, so I am not too worried about charges of external senders
2014-05-06T20:02:06Z puchacz: ok, anyway - thanks. I will read on about mandrill
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2014-05-06T20:03:28Z puchacz: I also take that thing like mandrill will look a lot more trustworthy for gmail than my fly-by-night server....
2014-05-06T20:05:18Z H4ns: puchacz: as long as you don't send actual spam, you'll have a much better chance that your email is delivered, yes.  consider using the json/rest api, that way you'll leave all the formatting issues to mandrill which is safer than trying and screwing up yourself.
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2014-05-06T20:06:55Z puchacz: H4ns: great, that's what I need - lightweight use and I really don't want to learn bolts and nuts. do you use drakma with something to encode json to talk to it?
2014-05-06T20:07:11Z H4ns: puchacz: i use drakma and yason, yes.
2014-05-06T20:07:19Z puchacz: H4ns: thanks
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2014-05-06T20:22:19Z jasom has used mailgun and it was crazy easy to get setup
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2014-05-06T20:26:49Z puchacz: jasom: thx, taking note
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2014-05-06T21:40:24Z moore: Is anyone using cl-glfw3 with sbcl?
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2014-05-06T21:45:30Z rpg: Anyone affiliated with common-lisp.net out there?  Email to admin@common-lisp.net just bounced with no such user....
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2014-05-06T21:45:54Z LiamH: rpg: I would like to know as well.
2014-05-06T21:46:42Z LiamH: Apparently they restored mailman, but none of my passwords work, so everyday I get "moderator approval needed" messages for spam. And, like you, I found that admin email bounced.
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2014-05-06T21:51:37Z rpg: The asdf-devel list is working fine now (I got the admin pw and everything), but there's been a lot of flux in the email. And the email address to which we are to report problems is still busted.
2014-05-06T21:52:03Z rpg: H4ns was here yesterday, and fixed some issues; wish I had known about this the
2014-05-06T21:52:06Z rpg: then.
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2014-05-06T21:58:22Z LiamH: I guess you could use minion to leave him a message.
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2014-05-06T21:58:36Z rpg: If I knew how to use minion ;-)
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2014-05-06T21:58:59Z rpg: minion is like normal software except everyone you know can see you screw up using it....
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2014-05-06T21:59:05Z LiamH: minion: tell rpg how to use minion
2014-05-06T21:59:05Z minion: rpg: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy
2014-05-06T21:59:19Z rpg: minion: help
2014-05-06T21:59:19Z minion: There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
2014-05-06T21:59:36Z LiamH: memos are what you want
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2014-05-06T22:00:26Z rpg: LiamH: Done.  That wasn't so bad.
2014-05-06T22:00:59Z LiamH: rpg: you did it as a private message?
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2014-05-06T22:01:07Z rpg: Yes.
2014-05-06T22:01:22Z LiamH: So... it's exactly like normal software.
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2014-05-06T22:02:25Z rpg: LiamH: Now that it's responded to me on a private channel, I knew to memo ditto.
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2014-05-06T22:07:31Z rpg: By the way, ASDF 3.1 is released today!
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2014-05-06T22:13:50Z Denommus: rpg: cool
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2014-05-06T22:41:48Z pjb: Good Evening!  Back from ELS2014.  Globally quite a successful instance :-)  Thanks to the organizers and speakers.
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2014-05-07T02:52:06Z meow271: is it possible in list to have a function fun1 and a function fun2, such that either one can be called directly with fun3 as if fun3 was the name of fun2 or fun1?
2014-05-07T02:52:25Z Bike: How do you choose which?
2014-05-07T02:52:56Z meow271: right before i need to do a particular procedure. the procedure is 5 lines
2014-05-07T02:53:08Z meow271: so 50% chance one or the other happends
2014-05-07T02:53:13Z meow271: and the only difference is the function name
2014-05-07T02:53:21Z meow271: parameters are the same, just output is a bit different
2014-05-07T02:55:27Z Bike: might as well (defun fun3 (&rest args) (if (< (random 1.0) 0.5) (apply #'fun1 args) (apply #'fun2 args)))
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2014-05-07T03:11:25Z loke: Bike: Not random enough. Better use a cryptographically secure random routine
2014-05-07T03:11:48Z loke: Bike:  or you could interface with http://www.random.org/clients/http/
2014-05-07T03:11:54Z Bike: oh thank god for a second i thought you were serious
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2014-05-07T03:15:15Z meow271: now that you guys mention it, is it better to do percents rather than if (< (random 100) 3)? (4%)
2014-05-07T03:16:55Z loke: meow271: % has no specific meaning in LIsp
2014-05-07T03:17:27Z meow271: (< (random 100) 3) vs (< (random 1.0) .03)
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2014-05-07T03:18:13Z loke: meow271: the latter has greater prescicion, but may be slower if your system has poor floatin gpoint performance
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2014-05-07T03:18:47Z quazi: hey all
2014-05-07T03:19:03Z meow271: loke: im just trying to figure out if the probability is the same in that case
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2014-05-07T03:22:39Z quazi: i have a style question; say we have a class of Items wih some slots, and we do a query on them to get some Matches which have some rating value on how strongly they satisf the query, does it make more sense to mutate the item objects (ie they have a rating slot that we set) or should i have a separate Match class where i instantiate new objects. no parallel computing is happening yet, though i may want that in the future, and after the query i guess its ok to 
2014-05-07T03:23:58Z quazi: im not certain what the 'wise' choice is because there may be 10000 or more Items in a coolection
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2014-05-07T03:24:52Z quazi: Items an Matches would also share significant data...
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2014-05-07T03:25:19Z rpg: meow271: Did you get an answer to your question? Those two random expressions are not the same.
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2014-05-07T03:33:39Z meow271: rpg: nope. are they not the same in respect to probability? i konw that the floating point can be more precise if needed.
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2014-05-07T03:38:59Z rpg: meow271: One is a discrete distribution, and one is (an approximation of) a continuous distribution.
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2014-05-07T03:40:47Z meow271: rpg: is there a proof that the continuous distribution for a 3% chance is better than a discrete distribution?
2014-05-07T03:41:14Z Bike: "better"?
2014-05-07T03:41:28Z Bike: 3/100 is obviously possible discretely.
2014-05-07T03:41:30Z rpg: meow271: they are just different things.  There isn't one that's "better".  That's like asking if a normal distribution is better than a binomial distirbution.
2014-05-07T03:41:37Z meow271: yeah better was poor word choice
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2014-05-07T03:41:52Z rpg: (random 100) returns an integer.  (random 1.0) returns a float.
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2014-05-07T03:43:48Z meow271: i suppose my question is if one simulates randomness more accurately for a 3% chance...? or this soley depends on the random seed
2014-05-07T03:44:16Z Bike: 3% is discrete, so
2014-05-07T03:45:07Z meow271 thinks he gets it
2014-05-07T03:45:50Z meow271: I think that answers my original question
2014-05-07T03:46:00Z Bike: you don't need to second-guess your library PRNGs, really, unless you're doing crypto
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2014-05-07T03:47:34Z rpg: meow271: I think you should be more worried about how well the random function simulates a uniform distribution...  I'd bet most modern CL implementations should have good functions.  Just take the one that gives you the data type you want.
2014-05-07T03:48:33Z meow271: rpg: noted, thanks! :)
2014-05-07T03:48:46Z meow271: and thanks Bike
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2014-05-07T03:53:44Z rpg: goodnight!
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2014-05-07T04:26:35Z waressearcher2: is there lisp offtopic channel ?
2014-05-07T04:28:24Z Bike: #lisp-cafe, dunno if anyone uses it
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2014-05-07T04:39:17Z waressearcher2: so its possible for anyone to change topic here ?
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2014-05-07T04:41:43Z waressearcher2: H4ns: sup
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2014-05-07T08:03:56Z quazimodo: do we have such a thnig as relative path names in CL ?
2014-05-07T08:04:53Z H4ns: pathnames can be merged, and many pathname related functions use *default-pathnames-defaults* as default
2014-05-07T08:04:53Z minion: H4ns, memo from rpg: It seems like admin@common-lisp.net is not working. Several of us are getting no such user errors.
2014-05-07T08:05:28Z quazimodo: hrm
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2014-05-07T09:19:45Z easye: Hmm.  Looking for a library to copy files recursively.  CL-FAD seems like I could do it with WALK-DIRECTORY and a bit of pathname munging, but I'm in a hurry.  Any quick suggestions (other than just using rsync?)
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2014-05-07T09:24:28Z H4ns: easye: use rsync
2014-05-07T09:24:30Z H4ns: oh wait
2014-05-07T09:24:48Z easye: H4ns: waiting.
2014-05-07T09:24:53Z easye: Missed ya at ELS...
2014-05-07T09:25:05Z H4ns: easye: seriously, doing a robust recursive copy will be hard to do in any language.  you're better off using rsync.
2014-05-07T09:25:18Z easye: Check.  Thanks for the advice.
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2014-05-07T09:34:53Z waressearcher2: H4ns: sup
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2014-05-07T10:09:15Z pjb: Bike: it's #lispcafe. If you don't know, go to http://cliki.net/IRC
2014-05-07T10:10:42Z pjb: minion: memo for quazimodo: of course!  There's even: (make-pathname :directory '(:relative "subdir" "subsubdir")).
2014-05-07T10:10:42Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell quazimodo when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-05-07T10:13:03Z pjb: easye: there's com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:copy-directory ;  but I use pure CL stuff, so I only copy the files and directories that are reported by CL:DIRECTORY.
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2014-05-07T10:54:24Z pillton: Is there a way to customise the TYPE-OF function so that it returns something like (and something (not simple-something)) for a given object?
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2014-05-07T10:58:15Z H4ns: ls
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2014-05-07T11:06:10Z pjb: pillton: It wouldn't be conforming.  cf. clhs type-of
2014-05-07T11:06:21Z pjb: But nothing prevents you to define your own typing function.
2014-05-07T11:07:32Z pillton: pjb: Yeah, I couldn't find anything in the hyperspec. I thought I would ask just to check.
2014-05-07T11:08:30Z pillton: pjb: It is strange that this is the case given what TYPE-OF returns for displaced arrays.
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2014-05-07T11:09:15Z pjb: The problem is that there is in general an infinite number of types for a given object.
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2014-05-07T11:11:09Z pillton: Yes, but why does the standard hide the true class of displaced arrays?
2014-05-07T11:12:09Z pillton: I'd like to do the same thing for my object, but I can't.
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2014-05-07T11:13:33Z |3b|`: the class of an array is array (or vector when applicable)
2014-05-07T11:13:38Z |3b|` is now known as |3b|
2014-05-07T11:14:27Z |3b|: (or string or bit-vector)
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2014-05-07T11:15:56Z pillton: On SBCL there are type specialized variants for (simple-array double-float (*)) and (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)).
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2014-05-07T11:16:06Z pillton: e.g. (class-of (make-array 10 :element-type 'double-float))
2014-05-07T11:16:38Z |3b| wonders if (and something (not simple-something)) is even conformant if 'something' is a built-in type (like array)
2014-05-07T11:16:44Z pillton: but TYPE-OF returns (simple-array double-float (10))
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2014-05-07T11:17:50Z zolk3ri: ༼ つ Ỏ͖͈̞̩͎̻̫̫̜͉̠̫͕̭̭̫̫̹̗̹͈̼̠̖͍͚̥͈̮̼͕̠̤̯̻̥̬̗̼̳̤̳̬̪̹͚̞̼̠͕̼̠̦͚̫͔̯̹͉͉̘͎͕̼̣̝͙̱̟̹̩̟̳̦̭͉̮̖̭̣̣̞̙̗̜̺̭̻̥͚͙̝̦̲̱͉͖͉̰̦͎̫̣̼͎͍̠̮͓̹̹͉̤̰̗̙͕͇͔̱͕̭͈̳̗̭͔̘̖̺̮̜̠͖̘͓̳͕̟̠̱̫̤͓͔̘̰̲͙͍͇̙͎̣̼̗̖͙̯͉̠̟͈͍͕̪͓̝̩̦̖̹̼̠̘̮͚̟͉̺̜͍͓̯̳̱̻͕̣̳͉̻̭̭̱͍̪̩̭̺͕̺̼̥̪͖̦̟͎̻̰_Ỏ͖͈̞̩͎̻̫̫̜Í
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2014-05-07T11:24:01Z pillton: |3b|: (type-of (make-array 5 :displace-to (make-array 10))) is (and (vector t 5) (not simple-array)) on SBCL.
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2014-05-07T11:24:38Z |3b|: yeah, i'm not sure that is allowed by the spec though
2014-05-07T11:25:49Z pillton: |3b|: Ok. On CCL-1.9 it is just (vector t 5).
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2014-05-07T11:26:35Z pillton: clhs type-of
2014-05-07T11:26:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_tp_of.htm
2014-05-07T11:26:58Z |3b|: 1.b is the part of that page i'm looking at
2014-05-07T11:27:08Z pillton: Looks like it isn't.
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2014-05-07T11:28:12Z pillton: Hmm. I liked that it said it wasn't a simple array.
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2014-05-07T11:31:51Z pillton: It seems like a strange restriction.
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2014-05-07T11:32:42Z |3b|: makes it easier for portable programs to understand types without having to parse arbitrarily complex combinations
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2014-05-07T12:41:49Z meow271: when i run (floor 2.5) it returns .5 instead of 2. how do i get 2?
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2014-05-07T12:42:40Z H4ns: meow271: it does not
2014-05-07T12:42:58Z H4ns: meow271: it returns multiple values, the primary value being 2, the secondary value being .5
2014-05-07T12:43:10Z H4ns: meow271: try (let ((x (floor 2.5))) x)
2014-05-07T12:43:34Z H4ns: meow271: then read up on multiple values and how to access the secondary return values.
2014-05-07T12:43:52Z meow271: H4ns: i see... i was confused. thanks
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2014-05-07T14:17:58Z hitecnologys: Xach: can I rely on number of folders in "quicklisp-projects" repository if I what to know how many projects are in Quicklisp in total?
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2014-05-07T14:18:26Z leo2007: when eval ``(a ,,(+ 1 2) ,(+ 3 4)), is it possible to see how the backquotes are expanded one at a time?
2014-05-07T14:19:51Z Xach: hitecnologys: No. Only projects that successfully build are available in Quicklisp.
2014-05-07T14:20:04Z Xach: hitecnologys: some projects do not build. i don't know which offhand.
2014-05-07T14:20:34Z Xach: hitecnologys: you could diff the project list against the result of ql-dist::(provided-releases (dist "quicklisp")) though.
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2014-05-07T14:23:16Z hitecnologys: Xach: I see.
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2014-05-07T14:25:22Z rpg: H4ns: Would you mind adding ASDF 3.1.2 release to the topic?
2014-05-07T14:25:22Z minion: rpg, memo from H4ns: i got admin@common-lisp.net fixed, thanks for the report.
2014-05-07T14:25:39Z rpg: H4ns: And thanks for fixing the cl.net email!
2014-05-07T14:26:03Z H4ns: rpg: ehu deserves the praise
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2014-05-07T14:26:27Z rpg: Thanks to both of you!
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2014-05-07T14:28:54Z drmeiste_: Is there a way to get old messages from minion?
2014-05-07T14:29:13Z drmeiste_ is now known as drmeister
2014-05-07T14:29:28Z drmeister: minion: help
2014-05-07T14:29:28Z minion: There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
2014-05-07T14:29:44Z H4ns: drmeister: you can /query minion if you want to play with it.
2014-05-07T14:31:07Z drmeister: Apparently not.
2014-05-07T14:31:21Z H4ns: uh?  sorry.
2014-05-07T14:31:36Z prxq: yes you can. I just did. /query minion and say "help"
2014-05-07T14:31:45Z drmeister: pjb: Did you send me a memo a couple of days ago about ways around needing backquote processing during bootstrapping?
2014-05-07T14:32:36Z drmeister: I'm sorry - I meant "After interrogating minion I have come to the conclusion that there is no way to access old memos that someone sent to me".
2014-05-07T14:34:54Z hitecnologys: Xach: and if I want to count only projects that are buildable, can I just use (ql-dist::provided-releases (ql::dist "quicklisp"))?
2014-05-07T14:35:15Z Xach: hitecnologys: approximately, yes.
2014-05-07T14:35:30Z pjb: drmeister: I did.
2014-05-07T14:35:31Z hitecnologys: Xach: OK, thanks.
2014-05-07T14:35:51Z Xach: apparently there are now over 1000 releases. yow.
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2014-05-07T14:36:12Z hitecnologys: Yeah, looks like it.
2014-05-07T14:36:16Z pjb: It should be acceptable to write a bootstrapping module in a restricted language, and removing backquote from CL is not a big restriction.
2014-05-07T14:36:30Z drmeister: pjb: Excellent, hello.   I was up to my eyeballs in moving garbage collection and I meant to make a note of your message but lost it.
2014-05-07T14:36:56Z drmeister: pjb: Ah, so I would pre-process all of my macro definitions to remove backquotes.
2014-05-07T14:37:09Z leo2007 looks for help
2014-05-07T14:37:09Z drmeister: Up to the point where I load the backquote processing code?
2014-05-07T14:37:14Z pjb: Well, only the macros you use in the bootstrapping :-)
2014-05-07T14:37:17Z pjb: Yes.
2014-05-07T14:37:51Z pjb: Also, it's quite possible to have simplier (incomplete) macros for bootstrapping.  Then you load the real macros later.
2014-05-07T14:38:02Z hitecnologys: Quicklisp seems to store old versions of packages. How does one remove them from disk?
2014-05-07T14:38:06Z drmeister: Got it - that might speed up my bootstrapping. Thank you.
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2014-05-07T14:38:35Z pjb: leo2007: backquote is not "expanded", it is _read_.
2014-05-07T14:39:03Z pjb: leo2007: There's no hook in the lisp reader, so if you want to trace it, you will have to write your own (or use eg. mine).
2014-05-07T14:39:25Z pjb: leo2007: would it be for debugging that you want that?
2014-05-07T14:40:05Z Xach: hitecnologys: (ql-dist:clean (ql-dist:dist "quicklisp")) is one way.
2014-05-07T14:41:10Z hitecnologys: Xach: out of curiosity, are there other ways (excluding removing all projects via find and regexp or writing bash script)?
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2014-05-07T14:41:49Z leo2007: pjb: the spec uses `expand' though. I want to understand why my expansion of ``(a ,,(+ 1 2) ,(+ 3 4)) differs from sbcl?
2014-05-07T14:42:05Z pjb: leo2007:  you could read
2014-05-07T14:42:08Z pjb: (quote ``(a ,,(+ 1 2) ,(+ 3 4)))
2014-05-07T14:42:11Z Xach: hitecnologys: I don't think so.
2014-05-07T14:42:13Z pjb: to see how ` is read.
2014-05-07T14:42:31Z hitecnologys: Xach: I see.
2014-05-07T14:42:34Z pjb: But some implementation have special processing in the printer to output `.
2014-05-07T14:42:47Z pjb: So you would have to use your own sexp printing function to "dump" it.
2014-05-07T14:44:46Z leo2007: pjb: what the meaning of "innermost backquoted form is expanded first" in spec 2.4.6 backquote?
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2014-05-07T14:48:42Z Viaken: http://kingjamesprogramming.tumblr.com/ - Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil prayed him that he may have to scan the environment for the entry that matches the variable.
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2014-05-07T14:49:16Z Viaken: May be partially off topic, but it was trained on SICP.
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2014-05-07T14:54:41Z eudoxia: a markov chain trained on the CLHS would just be a bunch of random <a> tags
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2014-05-07T15:06:49Z drmeister: In CL you have to explicitly COMPILE-FILE all source files that you want compiled - correct?   Automatically running COMPILE-FILE when you LOAD CL source files is not done - correct?
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2014-05-07T15:07:32Z drmeister: For instance, Python automatically generates a compiled version of a source file whenever you load source code and the source code is more recent than the compiled file.
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2014-05-07T15:08:58Z drmeister: I think Bike once told me that automatically running COMPILE-FILE on a source file and then LOADing the fasl file would have different semantics than LOADing the source wherein every Sexp would be implicitly compiled.
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2014-05-07T15:19:02Z splittist: drmeister: loading a source file and loading a fasl file (for want of a better term) are (potentially) different things. "If the file is a source file and the implementation chooses to perform implicit compilation, load must recognize top level forms as described in Section 3.2.3.1 (Processing of Top Level Forms) and arrange for each top level form to be
2014-05-07T15:19:02Z splittist: executed before beginning implicit compilation of the next." But you knew this.
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2014-05-07T15:40:36Z slyrus: any suggestions for calling lisp functions in other (long-lived) processes (possibly using different lisp implementations)? swank?
2014-05-07T15:41:09Z splittist: zeromq?
2014-05-07T15:42:32Z Xach: Apis?
2014-05-07T15:42:43Z Xach has not tried it but was somewhat excited by the author, description
2014-05-07T15:43:08Z slyrus: Xach: do you have a link for apis (nice ungoogle-able name)
2014-05-07T15:43:43Z slyrus: splittist: zeromq sounds interesting. have you tried it?
2014-05-07T15:43:43Z Xach: slyrus: tsk. it was on planet lisp last week!
2014-05-07T15:43:48Z Xach: https://github.com/mikelevins/apis
2014-05-07T15:43:56Z slyrus: indeed. thanks.
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2014-05-07T15:51:10Z slyrus wonders if cl-zmq works with ABCL
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2014-05-07T15:52:10Z slyrus: I've come to the realization that I have some tasks that I pretty much need to do in ABCL and some that I pretty much can't do in ABCL :( would be nice to have a single process be able to control both sets of tasks
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2014-05-07T15:53:04Z Xach: What sorts of things are unsuitable in ABCL?
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2014-05-07T15:53:49Z loke_: Xach: anything requiring libraries that won't load? (iolib, I think)
2014-05-07T15:53:59Z slyrus: well, anything that requires cl+ssl (e.g. drakma https requests) are unbearably slow
2014-05-07T15:54:14Z slyrus: cl-bibtex isn't ported to ABCL yet
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2014-05-07T15:54:35Z loke_: I've been thinking of building a wrapper around the Java SSL libraries
2014-05-07T15:55:27Z JuanDaugherty: to use with list
2014-05-07T15:55:30Z JuanDaugherty: p
2014-05-07T15:56:11Z slyrus: xach: I suppose many of my problems with ABCL are fixable, but they would (and have) required to much engineering work/distraction
2014-05-07T15:56:27Z JuanDaugherty: o
2014-05-07T15:57:37Z slyrus: unfortunately I have this big ol' java library that I need to use at the moment. I've gone partway down the path of trying to write my own lisp library(ies) for the same type of stuff, but, again, that's far more engineering work than I have time for
2014-05-07T15:58:42Z slyrus: although in an ideal world I'd go back and forth easily between my lisp stuff and the java stuff. ABCL has gotten better in that regard for me of late, but I'm still faced with some things that I'd rather be doing in SBCL than ABCL.
2014-05-07T15:59:33Z Xach: gotcha
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2014-05-07T16:04:29Z drmeister: slyrus: I'm dealing with similar issues between Common Lisp and C++.
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2014-05-07T16:05:19Z drmeister: Interoperation between Common Lisp and other languages is tough.
2014-05-07T16:05:44Z slyrus: true, but ABCL does a reasonable job with java, so now I just need lisp interop with lisp :)
2014-05-07T16:06:45Z pjb: drmeister: compiling and loading are semantic operations in Common Lisp.  They are unrelated to actual transformation of sexp into byte code or native binary code.
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2014-05-07T16:07:09Z pjb: drmeister: the consequence of compile-file is that (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) …) forms are evalauted.
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2014-05-07T16:07:20Z drmeister: I've opened a socket and sent S-expressions back and forth - that wasn't too bad.
2014-05-07T16:07:24Z pjb: drmeister: the consequence of load'ing a .fas  is that (eval-when (:load-toplevel) …) forms are evalauted.
2014-05-07T16:07:32Z pjb: drmeister: the consequence of load'ing a .lisp  is that (eval-when (:execute) …) forms are evalauted.
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2014-05-07T16:08:04Z pjb: In all case, there may or may not be actual compilation.
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2014-05-07T16:08:52Z drmeister: pjb: I see - thanks.  So what does Python give up that they can essentially compile-file when you load source?
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2014-05-07T16:09:40Z pjb: drmeister: notice the fourth paragraph in clhs load.  It means that you may obtain different result from loading a source file with implicit compilation, than from compile-file a source and loading the .fas file.
2014-05-07T16:09:43Z drmeister: I appreciate that CL gives very fine control when things are evaluated.
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2014-05-07T16:10:18Z pjb: (By side effect of intermixing compilation and evaluation of successive forms, vs. compiling everything and evaluating everything.
2014-05-07T16:10:25Z pjb: )
2014-05-07T16:11:56Z drmeister: I'll have to think on this more.
2014-05-07T16:12:09Z pjb: I also thing that it definitely excludes the implicit with-compilation-unit you get with compile-file, when loading it.
2014-05-07T16:12:21Z pjb: cf with-compilation-unit.
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2014-05-07T16:21:58Z pjb: drmeister: I can tell about python, but in CL this is specified that way to give some freedom to implementers, and to ensure the semantics of compilation and evaluation.
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2014-05-07T16:22:47Z pjb: drmeister: notice for example, that with-compilation-unit defers some compilation side effects to the end.  (Remember that compile-file is a compilation unit, unless you embed it in another with with-compilation-unit).
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2014-05-07T16:25:35Z drmeister: It seems to me that the value of with-compilation-unit is in doing whole program optimization (inlining) across multiple source files compiled within the same W-C-U. Does that sound right?
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2014-05-07T16:27:42Z drmeister: All of the pain the Clang/GCC people are going through to implement Link-Time-Optimization seems to me can be done away with using with-compilation-unit
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2014-05-07T16:46:08Z drmeister: I ran into a problem over the last couple of days incorporating the Memory Pool System automatic-mostly-copying garbage collector within my Common Lisp.
2014-05-07T16:46:41Z drmeister: In several places in the code I used C++ standard containers std::vector std::map std::set etc.
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2014-05-07T16:47:09Z drmeister: The MPS needs all pointers to GC'd objects to be within the MPS managed memory.
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2014-05-07T16:47:34Z drmeister: The C++ standard containers store their contents on the heap, outside of MPS managed memory.
2014-05-07T16:48:02Z drmeister: So the C++ standard containers aren't compatible with MPS.
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2014-05-07T16:50:15Z drmeister: I tried hacking the C++ std::vector to make it compatible but it was a mess.  The template program is complex and the std::vector is implemented in two pieces.  The std::vector stores three pointers to the begin() of the data, the end() of the data and the end of the allocated memory (capacity). These are on the heap or the stack depending on how you use std::vector.   Then the data is stored on the heap elsewhere.
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2014-05-07T16:50:50Z drmeister: You can't scan the data for the heap without the std::vector header.
2014-05-07T16:51:54Z drmeister: So I'm implementing a drop-in replacement for std::vector<T> called GCVector<T> that stores [int _Capacity; int _End; T _Data[0] ... T _Data[_Capacity-1] ] in one contiguous block of memory.
2014-05-07T16:52:44Z drmeister: Then MPS can move this vector around to it's hearts content and the only thing I need to worry about is scanning the T objects and updating the single pointer to the start of the GCVector<T>.
2014-05-07T16:53:24Z drmeister: I'm not leading to any question here - sometimes when I core dump implementation details people offer up helpful thoughts on low level implementation details of Common Lisp.
2014-05-07T16:54:17Z drmeister: One thing the above taught me is to appreciate HASH-TABLE.   It's easy to implement with a moving garbage collector.  All you need is one vector for the buckets and CONSes.
2014-05-07T16:54:40Z drmeister: Something like a B-tree or red/black tree would be challenging to implement to work with a moving garbage collector.
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2014-05-07T16:56:32Z drmeister: So now I'm replacing all std::vector<T> with GCVector<T>  and all associative containers (std::map, std::set std::multimap etc) with HASH-TABLEs
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2014-05-07T16:58:48Z drmeister: I'm dying to throw the switch and see moving garbage collection work.  I've been working on this for months.
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2014-05-07T17:00:57Z drmeister: The GC will manage about 520 C++ classes.   Then I'll say "Suck on that you ##C++ weenies who said it couldn't be done!".
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2014-05-07T17:04:59Z ggole: What about pointers to the inside of the vector's storage? Or does MPS handle that?
2014-05-07T17:05:42Z drmeister: ggole: I wrote a static analyzer in Common Lisp that builds scanners for the pointers inside the vectors storage.
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2014-05-07T17:06:09Z drmeister: I'm monologuing while I wait for it to run.
2014-05-07T17:06:50Z ggole: That knows about the structure of the vector headers, right?
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2014-05-07T17:07:34Z drmeister: ggole: It analyzes the C++ abstract syntax tree generated by the clang front-end.   It's a C++ library that I hooked into my Common Lisp.
2014-05-07T17:08:21Z ggole: I don't see how that solves the interior pointer problem.
2014-05-07T17:08:28Z ggole: (Although maybe you just never generate such pointers.)
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2014-05-07T17:08:57Z drmeister: That didn't quite answer what you asked.   Yes, it will know about the structure of the vector headers.   You write some functions called obj_scan/obj_skip that interface with MPS and they have to know the header structure.
2014-05-07T17:09:50Z drmeister: ggole: It does solve the interior pointer problem because it knows the names of the interior pointer and it generates C++ code that fixes those pointers.
2014-05-07T17:10:07Z ggole: The "interior pointer problem" is how to control what happens when you have a pointer like &vector[5]
2014-05-07T17:10:34Z ggole: When the storage of the vector is relocated, any such pointers should be adjusted.
2014-05-07T17:10:36Z drmeister: Oh - that interior pointer problem.   Sorry :-)
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2014-05-07T17:11:17Z drmeister: ggole: When allocated on the stack interior pointers will pin the vector they point in to.
2014-05-07T17:11:41Z ggole: Ah, your GC allows that?
2014-05-07T17:12:14Z ggole: That would seem to disallow nice things like a copying generational GC, but I guess it is a workable design.
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2014-05-07T17:12:20Z drmeister: I don't  use interior pointers on the heap but if I did the static analyzer would have to be updated to find them and write code to fix them.
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2014-05-07T17:12:31Z ggole: Right.
2014-05-07T17:12:38Z drmeister: ggole: Yeah - the MPS is pretty neat.
2014-05-07T17:13:45Z drmeister: ggole: It is a mostly-copying generational GC.    It copies stuff on the heap.  Pointers on the stack are pinned.  The stack changes and then they become unpinned.
2014-05-07T17:14:21Z drmeister: My next goal will be completely precise garbage collection - but LLVM doesn't support that yet.  Soon, hopefully.
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2014-05-07T17:16:06Z ggole: Mostly copying... interesting.
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2014-05-07T17:16:47Z drmeister: I think SBCL is mostly copying on X86
2014-05-07T17:17:06Z ggole: The usual design for copying generational GC requires that all storage be copied out of the minor heap, leaving it contiguous and empty.
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2014-05-07T17:17:26Z ggole: I guess that's just one possibility though.
2014-05-07T17:18:14Z drmeister: Right - so they have multiple small nurseries and if a nursery contains anything after everything that can be moved out has been moved out then it's left alone until nothing on the stack points to it.
2014-05-07T17:18:26Z drmeister: At least that is how I think it works.
2014-05-07T17:18:36Z ggole: Right, that makes sense.
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2014-05-07T17:19:42Z ggole: The advantage of the usual scheme with one nursery is ridiculously cheap allocation.
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2014-05-07T17:21:40Z ggole: But you can't reliably pin objects.
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2014-05-07T17:24:01Z drmeister: Do you mean you can't be certain that a value on the stack is a pointer to an object in a nursery?  As in ambiguous roots?
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2014-05-07T17:25:41Z ggole: No, it's that the GC has to relocate (some) objects to function correctly.
2014-05-07T17:26:19Z ggole: So storage allocated in the minor heap can't be pinned.
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2014-05-07T17:27:04Z pjb: drmeister: This doesn't seem correct "The C++ standard containers store their contents on the heap, outside of MPS managed memory."  AFAIK, one can provide an allocator to stl containers.
2014-05-07T17:28:24Z pjb: drmeister: indeed, it's the first line of the documention of std::vector:   template < class T, class Alloc = allocator<T> > class vector; // generic template
2014-05-07T17:28:28Z pjb: http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/vector/vector/
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2014-05-07T17:29:00Z drmeister: pjb: Yeah - I spent a couple of hours thinking that.   But then I have to have a back pointer to the vector header so that I know what objects in the data are live and need to be scanned.
2014-05-07T17:29:10Z pjb: So just use std::vector<Thing,MpsAllocator<Thing> > instead of std::vector<Thing>.
2014-05-07T17:29:25Z drmeister: Also - I don't know if the C++ std::vector does things in a GC-aware order.
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2014-05-07T17:30:22Z pjb: I don't know how the allocator class works, but I'd expect that it has hooks to _allocate_ objects and also to _deallocate_ them, so you should be able to inform the garbage collector about that.
2014-05-07T17:30:43Z drmeister: For example vector.push_back(x)...   If the std::vector implementation moves the end pointer up one and then copy constructs the last element then if a GC happens after the end is moved but before the cctor executes then the GC will scan uninitialized memory - BAD.
2014-05-07T17:31:30Z pjb: Why wouldn't your allocate initialize the memory?
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2014-05-07T17:32:40Z pjb: Notice that it's <MpsAllocator<Thing>, so it knows the type of things it should allocate, so it can typetag them, etc.
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2014-05-07T17:32:53Z drmeister: I suppose I could have done that but it would have added more overhead, running placement new and placement destroy on memory that may never contain a live object.
2014-05-07T17:33:17Z pjb: http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/memory/allocator/?kw=allocator
2014-05-07T17:33:28Z pjb: Is it overhead when it's necessary?
2014-05-07T17:34:01Z drmeister: pjb: I know about those - I use Allocators with my GCVector<T,Allocator>
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2014-05-07T17:34:43Z drmeister: I have an MPS allocator and a malloc/free allocator for testing in my reference counted builds of the Common Lisp executable.
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2014-05-07T17:40:54Z drmeister: Oh - yeah - the other thing that filled my blood with ice-water was the thought that maybe somewhere, deep in the template programming of std::vector there is a cast of a pointer to an int and some bitwise operation on that int that would cause MPS to no longer recognize the vector.
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2014-05-07T17:41:54Z ggole: That would make for some enjoyable debugging.
2014-05-07T17:42:00Z drmeister: Those C++ programmers are just C programmers in fancy clothes and C programmers are brutes when it comes to pointers.
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2014-05-07T17:43:20Z drmeister wasn't about to leave his beautiful code in their filthy, brutish hands.
2014-05-07T17:44:36Z jasom is a C programmer by day
2014-05-07T17:45:09Z drmeister: I thought it was better to create a clean implementation of vector.   I tested it pretty thoroughly and my system runs and compiles itself using it - so it's all good.
2014-05-07T17:45:29Z jasom: I'll work in C++ if the customer insists, but they need to pay me *really* well.
2014-05-07T17:46:13Z jasom: drmeister: that seems sane.  You are using the stack to allocate objects?  How does that play with the GC considering llvm has ... limited options for handling GCing objects pointed to from the stack?
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2014-05-07T17:46:51Z jasom: drmeister: nevermind, I just hit page-up and saw you answered that already
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2014-05-07T17:47:46Z drmeister: Once I'm done with this - you can use Common Lisp to clean up your C - you will be better..., stronger..., faster.
2014-05-07T17:48:14Z jasom: drmeister: So you're saying "we have the technology"
2014-05-07T17:48:25Z drmeister: Soon.
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2014-05-07T17:51:31Z drmeister: But yeah, that's what I'm sayin'
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2014-05-07T17:54:34Z drmeister: Alrighty then - I just got the static analyzer running again with support for analyzing the template parameter types of these GCVector thingies and it's off and running, analyzing 166 C++ source files in four forks.  That takes about 2 hours - just in time for my meeting (sigh).
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2014-05-07T17:55:26Z drmeister: C++ static analysis with the clang ASTMatcher library is powerful but ponderous.
2014-05-07T17:55:58Z drmeister: Although at the moment I don't know how much time is being spent in the ASTMatcher library and how much time is in my Common Lisp callbacks.
2014-05-07T17:57:04Z j_king: design q: would you share sockets with threads or use some sort of local communication pattern such as "channels" ? (background: I'm writing a CL kernel backend for iPython and need to open a bunch of zmq sockets to communicate with the frontend and am looking for advice on how best to structure it).
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2014-05-07T18:00:57Z jasom: j_king: zmq sockets aren't thread-safe I thought
2014-05-07T18:01:25Z jasom: j_king: at they weren't in 1.x or 2.x it's on version 4 now so they may have become so at some point
2014-05-07T18:01:46Z jasom: j_king: so if you share them between threads, make sure you put a mutex around the sends
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2014-05-07T18:02:09Z j_king: jasom: looks like that's what lisp-zmq is doing, afaict
2014-05-07T18:02:38Z j_king: https://github.com/galdor/lisp-zmq/blob/master/src/zmq.lisp
2014-05-07T18:02:40Z jasom: oh, that's galdor's library; I've been thinking of switching to that
2014-05-07T18:02:58Z jasom: I'm still on cl-zqm for my stuff.
2014-05-07T18:03:42Z j_king: jasom: I started with that but switched as I needed more router sockets and zmq_device() is nice
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2014-05-07T18:05:46Z jasom: I am heavily biased against sharing anything between threads, but if you have sockets that are already thread-safe to use simultaneously in different threads, that seems fairly benign, so long as it's send-only
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2014-05-07T18:05:55Z jasom: (or receive only, and you get discrete messages)
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2014-05-07T18:31:16Z mood: I believe I have found a bug in cl-protobufs, but the link to the mailing list is dead and I have no idea how else to reach anyone: The documentation mentions that when cl-protobufs creates a package it exports all relevant names from that package, but I just tried and it doesn't export any symbols from that package.
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2014-05-07T18:34:47Z Xach: mood: can you paste a transcript that suggests that's what's happening?
2014-05-07T18:39:37Z mood: I don't know exactly what you mean by "transcript", but http://paste.lisp.org/display/142435
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2014-05-07T18:43:01Z Xach: That is a fine transcript
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2014-05-07T18:57:54Z bobbysmith007: this bug just cost me quite a bit of time: recursive error handling was crashing worker threads in my webserver: https://github.com/AccelerationNet/cl-json/commit/194115007dcd3c75c8ace371a5ac6d6aa1b1a9dc
2014-05-07T18:58:20Z bobbysmith007: All of my error handling around thread operations had been for naught
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2014-05-07T20:01:10Z mood: And another bug in cl-protobufs: If you use :protobuf-file in your system definition, it appends ".proto" to it twice. So (:protobuf-file "Mumble") means it looks for "Mumble.proto.proto"
2014-05-07T20:01:46Z mood: Oh, but if you use the :protobuf-file option in your system definition it DOES export the symbols properly
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2014-05-07T20:14:08Z GuglielmoS: exit
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2014-05-07T20:46:36Z fiveop: Can anyone give me a few pointers, how to develop an application using common qt in a normal emacs/slime and in my case sbcl environment?
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2014-05-07T20:48:09Z fiveop: In particular, is there any documentation telling me in which cases I'm responsible to delete stuff?
2014-05-07T20:49:25Z fiveop: Currently, multiple invocations of my application from the same sbcl process, cause lots of random successes and failures, based on which thread executes the form, that starts the qt application, which makes sense.
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2014-05-07T20:50:46Z pjb: fiveop: I don't know a lot of frameworks that allows several instances of the Application class…
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2014-05-07T20:51:10Z pjb: fiveop: Use M-x slime RET y RET to create other processes!
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2014-05-07T20:56:29Z fiveop: pjb: I don't want several instances. I want to clear everything up, when my 'main' function returns. (Like a process in the process I guess. I don't want to load the whole system everytime I want to start the app. I could as well use c++ and its change/compile/run cycle in that case :))
2014-05-07T20:57:12Z pjb: Oh! I see.  Yes, some cleanup would be needed.
2014-05-07T20:58:11Z pjb: I guess you would have to check the all the C++ destructors, and ensure that C++ objects are destructed when exiting from main.
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2014-05-07T21:01:44Z fiveop: So, memory management :)
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2014-05-07T21:02:27Z pjb: Well, that's not exactly the problem.  But in C++ with RIAS, they conflate memory and functionality.
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2014-05-07T21:40:04Z jasom: pjb: I'm not familiar with RIAS?  Do you mean RAII?
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2014-05-07T23:37:25Z leo2007: In "If the backquote syntax is nested, the innermost backquoted form should be expanded first. This means that if several commas occur in a row, the leftmost one belongs to the innermost backquote.", why is the leftmost backquote the innermost? my intuition seems to say otherwise.
2014-05-07T23:37:52Z Bicyclidine: the leftmost comma, it says, not the leftmost backquote
2014-05-07T23:38:10Z leo2007: indeed, my bad.
2014-05-07T23:39:37Z quazimodo: is there a portable way to find out the real directory name that a file resides in? (not the directory that it was executed out of)
2014-05-07T23:39:37Z minion: quazimodo, memo from pjb: of course!  There's even: (make-pathname :directory '(:relative "subdir" "subsubdir")).
2014-05-07T23:40:21Z pjb: leo2007: because ` and , behave like parentheses.
2014-05-07T23:40:23Z quazimodo: pjb: oh, cooly :)
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2014-05-07T23:42:02Z pjb: quazimodo: of course, pathname syntaxes also support it. In logical pathnames: #P";RELATIVE;SUBDIR;FILE.TYPE"  In physical pathnames, it depends on the system. On unix: #P"relative/subdir/file.type".
2014-05-07T23:42:32Z jasom: friends don't let friends use logical pathnames
2014-05-07T23:43:15Z pjb: jasom: on the contrary.
2014-05-07T23:43:31Z leo2007: In ``(a ,,(+ 1 2) ,(+ 3 4)), is the second backquote the innermost and should be expanded first?
2014-05-07T23:43:32Z pjb: I always use logical pathnames.  It's physical pathnames that are bitches, since they're underspecified.
2014-05-07T23:43:51Z pjb: leo2007: yes.
2014-05-07T23:43:51Z quazimodo: I'm using cl-fad to try to avoid problems pjb
2014-05-07T23:44:26Z dim: what's about make-pathname :back syntax?
2014-05-07T23:44:48Z Bicyclidine: (list 'list ''a 3 (list '+ 3 4)), i think. nested backquotes are harrowing to me
2014-05-07T23:44:52Z pjb: Like iterate, I've not reached yet a point where I had to switch to cl-fad to write portable and conforming code.  The point is that where there are problems with pathnames, it's the fault of defective implementations!
2014-05-07T23:45:05Z dim: pjb: how do you typically map physical to logical pathnames?
2014-05-07T23:45:14Z pjb: Instead of papering over with a library like cl-fad, we should push implementers to correct their implementation.
2014-05-07T23:45:21Z pjb: dim: you don't! :-)
2014-05-07T23:45:29Z pjb: It's a one way transformation.
2014-05-07T23:45:30Z jasom: I do'nt use logical pathnames since they are over-specified
2014-05-07T23:45:35Z dim: how do you get to be happy using logical pathnames then?
2014-05-07T23:45:38Z pjb: That's why you should always stay with logical pathnames.
2014-05-07T23:45:39Z dim: I'm missing something
2014-05-07T23:45:43Z leo2007: Bicyclidine: that remove all of the backquotes. I need to understand when the first backquote is removed
2014-05-07T23:45:53Z pjb: dim: I don't try to process any random unix pathname.
2014-05-07T23:46:02Z Bicyclidine: leo2007: i meant, i think that code is equivalent to the backquote code.
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2014-05-07T23:46:03Z dim: oh, I *have* to
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2014-05-07T23:46:32Z pjb: Eg. if an implementation translates logical pathnames (which must be uppercase), into uppercase physical pathnames, then I only access uppercase physical pathnames.
2014-05-07T23:46:35Z dim: on pgloader command files my users are using unix (soon enough *and* windows) specific namestrings
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2014-05-07T23:46:53Z pjb: dim: right if you have to process existing file systems, better use iolib or some posix API.
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2014-05-07T23:47:12Z dim: ok then, what I'm doing already
2014-05-07T23:47:18Z pjb: Or physical pathnames with an implementation that is not broken.
2014-05-07T23:47:22Z dim: iolib is out in cases because of libfixposix dependencies
2014-05-07T23:47:27Z dim: so uiop
2014-05-07T23:47:35Z dim: but then I think I need something above it
2014-05-07T23:47:58Z dim: basedir, dirname, etc are too complex otherwize
2014-05-07T23:48:15Z pjb: I'm not saying that cl-fad is useless, on the contrary.  But I didn't have to use it so far.
2014-05-07T23:48:16Z quazimodo: :(
2014-05-07T23:48:16Z dim: like take a pathname and move the filename/type to the directory of another pathname
2014-05-07T23:49:08Z quazimodo: i can't find any single way to find the pathname to a file that was loaded (its real pathname, not its symlink path, and not the path of the place CL image was loaded)
2014-05-07T23:49:21Z dim: probe-file
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2014-05-07T23:49:51Z jasom: dim: I do'nt think probe-file is guaranteed to resolve symlinks, right?
2014-05-07T23:50:04Z dim: that's not my reading of it
2014-05-07T23:50:07Z dim: truename
2014-05-07T23:50:14Z Bicyclidine: "The truename of a file may differ from other filenames for the file because of symbolic links, version numbers, logical device translations in the file system, logical pathname translations within Common Lisp, or other artifacts of the file system. "
2014-05-07T23:50:17Z Bicyclidine: i guess.
2014-05-07T23:50:21Z dim:  -- Function: probe-file pathspec → truename
2014-05-07T23:50:56Z jasom: I stand corrected
2014-05-07T23:51:08Z quazimodo: dim: what if i have my awesome-program.lisp (as a shell script) in /home/quazi/code/awesome/ and i symlink it to /home/quazi/bin/ , andi want it to (load "awesome-helpers") which is also in /home/quazi/awesome/
2014-05-07T23:51:13Z Bicyclidine: alternately, there is a *load-truename* variable.
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2014-05-07T23:51:40Z Bicyclidine: /home/quazi/code/awesome/, i hope you mean
2014-05-07T23:51:45Z dim: quazimodo: I would say don't do that, use buildapp instead
2014-05-07T23:51:48Z quazimodo: yes, sory
2014-05-07T23:52:34Z quazimodo: rly :/
2014-05-07T23:53:44Z quazimodo: <- sad
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2014-05-07T23:57:34Z quazimodo: I shouldn't really be doing (load "./sbclrc") in my asdf system, should I?
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2014-05-08T00:00:40Z zRecursive: quazimodo: without using "--no-userinit", sbcl will load ~/.sbclrc automatically
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2014-05-08T00:03:35Z quazimodo: zRecursive: so what happens if I create an executable lisp image, will it still load that?
2014-05-08T00:05:24Z zRecursive: do you use #'sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die ?
2014-05-08T00:05:36Z quazimodo: yes
2014-05-08T00:05:48Z quazimodo: maybe I should use buildapp (never used it)
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2014-05-08T00:06:19Z pjb: quazimodo: when creating an image, I explicitely run my implementation with the option not to load user configuration files.
2014-05-08T00:06:44Z pjb: Of course, that means that I have to start my image creation scripts by (load #P"~/quicklisp/setup.lisp") :-)
2014-05-08T00:07:08Z zRecursive: yeah, clisp #'ext:saveinitmem has option :norc
2014-05-08T00:07:12Z Bicyclidine: quazimodo: if you're using an asdf system and multiple source files it might be time to move beyond shell scripts, definitely
2014-05-08T00:07:30Z quazimodo: yeah i guess it is. So i just have to figure out the smart way to do it :)
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2014-05-08T00:08:12Z pjb: What shell script?
2014-05-08T00:08:40Z zRecursive: I am not sure if #'sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die has corresponding option ?
2014-05-08T00:09:08Z quazimodo: pjb: i started this project as a single file shell script, then split it into two files and wanted to keep them in their own dir in ~/Code/ and create a symlink to ~/Code/awesome/awesome.lisp in ~/bin/awesome
2014-05-08T00:10:17Z quazimodo: but that made it hard to load the other files since (load "awesome-helpers") tries to load it from the dir that the image was loaded in
2014-05-08T00:10:49Z zRecursive: quazimodo: you need to use ASDF
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2014-05-08T00:11:20Z quazimodo: zRecursive: yeah I'm reading the docs now
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2014-05-08T00:19:05Z quazimodo: once I declare that a file depends on some packages in the .asd do I have to then ql:quickload 'some package' ?
2014-05-08T00:19:15Z quazimodo: or does quicklisp take care of that
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2014-05-08T00:22:23Z pjb: quazimodo: your system should list the systems it depends on.
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2014-05-08T00:23:18Z quazimodo: cool
2014-05-08T00:23:25Z pjb: (defsystem … :depends-on (:other-system …) :components ((:file … :depends-on ("other-file" …))…))
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2014-05-08T00:27:13Z quazimodo: pjb: :)
2014-05-08T00:27:57Z quazimodo: but it looks like i need to (in-package :awesome) in each file
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2014-05-08T01:27:00Z interlocutor: http://arstechnica.com/science/2014/05/scientific-computings-future-can-any-coding-language-top-a-1950s-behemoth/
2014-05-08T01:27:03Z interlocutor: lisp has a posse
2014-05-08T01:27:23Z interlocutor: together we shall defeat the imposters
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2014-05-08T01:34:31Z jasom: zRecursive: sb-ext:s-l-a-d lets you tell it to use the same initialization options, so you launch with --no-userinit and tell it to use the same options
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2014-05-08T01:56:51Z zRecursive: jasom: nice to know it
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2014-05-08T04:54:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-05-08T05:05:12Z pillton: Good morning beach.
2014-05-08T05:07:59Z beach: pillton: When I lived 1 year in Auckland, I noticed that within a radius of 2 hours flight, there were around 5 Lispers, whereas in Europe there are 500.
2014-05-08T05:08:26Z Zhivago: Either europe has faster planes or a higher population density ...
2014-05-08T05:09:39Z zRecursive: China has the largest population density  :)
2014-05-08T05:09:51Z pillton: beach: I am working on it.
2014-05-08T05:10:01Z beach: pillton: Good!
2014-05-08T05:10:21Z beach: zRecursive: I seriously doubt that.
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2014-05-08T05:10:48Z zRecursive: beach: doubt what?  fewer lisper in China ?
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2014-05-08T05:11:02Z beach: "China has the largest population density"
2014-05-08T05:11:10Z pillton: beach: I gave a talk yesterday about a library I wrote. Not a peep from anyone about my use of lisp.
2014-05-08T05:11:23Z beach: pillton: What was the target audience?
2014-05-08T05:11:43Z pillton: beach: Computer vision and robotics researchers.
2014-05-08T05:11:49Z beach: Nice!
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2014-05-08T05:14:00Z zRecursive: beach: estimated as (13 * 10^8) / (960000)
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2014-05-08T05:22:27Z beach: zRecursive: Off topic, I know, but Wikipedia says: 144/km² (83rd)
2014-05-08T05:23:28Z beach: pillton: What library is it?
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2014-05-08T05:25:39Z pillton: It is a library for optimising convex functions.
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2014-05-08T05:26:28Z beach: Optimize as in finding extreme points?
2014-05-08T05:26:56Z pillton: Optimize as in finding the global minimum of a function.
2014-05-08T05:27:07Z beach: Right.  Got it.
2014-05-08T05:27:24Z pillton: The library automatically generates the boring bits given a specification.
2014-05-08T05:27:42Z pillton: It saves me about 1.5 days work per function.
2014-05-08T05:27:55Z beach: Wow.  Very nice!
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2014-05-08T05:55:52Z notori0us: anyone compiled sbcl successfully on a raspberry pi?
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2014-05-08T06:10:42Z H4ns: notori0us: to my knowledge, there is no release yet.  try asking in #sbcl.
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2014-05-08T06:11:20Z notori0us: H4ns: ah, yes thank you
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2014-05-08T14:12:55Z moore: hey beach!
2014-05-08T14:13:20Z oleo: morning
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2014-05-08T14:16:19Z beach: Hello moore.
2014-05-08T14:16:28Z beach: pjb: OK, thanks.
2014-05-08T14:16:40Z oleo: hello beach
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2014-05-08T14:16:50Z oleo: how is your project going on ?
2014-05-08T14:17:01Z beach: oleo: Which one? :)
2014-05-08T14:17:13Z oleo: the clim related one!
2014-05-08T14:18:32Z beach: oleo: Oh.  Not working on it right now.
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2014-05-08T14:18:45Z beach: But moore is about to write an OpenGL backend for it.
2014-05-08T14:18:59Z moore: Some kind of backend.
2014-05-08T14:19:25Z moore: It would help if I could get cl-glfw3 working...
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2014-05-08T14:20:06Z oleo: allright
2014-05-08T14:20:19Z moore: Also, I've been talking about writing an OpenGL backend for CLIM for more than 10 years, so one had best be patient :) I think it's a more viable proposition with CLIMatis.
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2014-05-08T14:21:10Z beach: moore: What problem does cl-glfw3 solve?
2014-05-08T14:21:16Z oleo: well if it's X based .......
2014-05-08T14:21:28Z oleo: unless you have an X without opengl .......
2014-05-08T14:21:36Z oleo: and that makes it slow anyway.....
2014-05-08T14:22:12Z moore: beach: Portable creation of OpenGL drawables like windows, and a good model for portably dealing with events.
2014-05-08T14:22:29Z oleo: when you say gl do you speak about pure sw rendering or mixed ?
2014-05-08T14:22:40Z beach: moore: I see.
2014-05-08T14:23:08Z beach: moore: In what way is cl-glfw3 not working?
2014-05-08T14:23:25Z moore: oleo: Not pure sw by any means. Though I think a lot will be done in sw compositing for a while.
2014-05-08T14:23:37Z moore: beach: I get an immediate error when trying the example.
2014-05-08T14:23:53Z beach: Not good.
2014-05-08T14:24:20Z moore: beach: This is from quicklisp, so I may need to get serious and dive into cl-glfw3 to see what's going on. I've forgotten all I ever knew about debugging lisp images with gdb :)
2014-05-08T14:24:31Z moore used to know a lot about that.
2014-05-08T14:25:06Z beach: Sounds like something I would rather not have to know if I can avoid it.
2014-05-08T14:26:14Z beach: ... but maybe it's a marketable skill.
2014-05-08T14:26:52Z moore: beach: Some of the SBCL implementers may have managed to market that, yes.
2014-05-08T14:27:18Z moore: beach: The basic problem is that lisps use traps for various purposes, which confuses gdb.
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2014-05-08T14:28:13Z beach: I see.  Still, GDB is pretty good even with assembly code.
2014-05-08T14:28:21Z moore: beach: Oh yes!
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2014-05-08T14:29:26Z moore: I don't think there is a (free) alternative on Linux.
2014-05-08T14:29:53Z beach: How so?
2014-05-08T14:30:16Z beach: I was thinking of trying NetBSD some time.
2014-05-08T14:30:28Z beach: I am getting more and more disgusted with Ubuntu.
2014-05-08T14:30:42Z beach: I realize of course that I could pick a different distribution.
2014-05-08T14:31:14Z moore: Because I don't know of one? :) Even on BSD I haven't used any other debugger on Unix than gdb since ~1991, except for a bit of TotalView on Tru64.
2014-05-08T14:31:46Z moore: I used to run FreeBSD which I liked very much.
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2014-05-08T14:32:09Z beach: moore: Yes, I remember the miserable pre-GDB situation around 1983 or so.  I was spoiled by Multics and couldn't believe what Unix people put up with.
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2014-05-08T14:33:09Z moore: God, dbx, what a piece of shit.
2014-05-08T14:33:12Z pjb: beach: well, one advantage of *BSD  is that they're emulated by Darwin :-)
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2014-05-08T14:33:32Z H4ns: moore: hey, compared to adb and sdb, dbx was gold
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2014-05-08T14:33:34Z pjb: beach: which would suggest running Darwin (it's a free OS one can use stand alone).
2014-05-08T14:34:08Z moore: H4ns: heh, true, though adb had the advantage that you could run any file through it and get a reasonable disassembly ;)
2014-05-08T14:34:22Z H4ns: omg
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2014-05-08T14:34:36Z moore: Useful for lisp compiler hacking.
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2014-05-08T14:34:55Z Xach: I find myself wanting a SLIME repl command that replaces use of *, **, *** in forms with the actual previous forms.
2014-05-08T14:35:13Z beach: pjb: What would Darwin buy me over NetBSD?
2014-05-08T14:35:27Z moore: beach: Slick, expensive hardware :)
2014-05-08T14:35:45Z beach: moore: :)
2014-05-08T14:35:54Z moore: Although Isaac will come over and build you a Hackintosh :)
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2014-05-08T14:37:22Z pjb: beach: more compatibility with MacOSX ;-) http://www.puredarwin.org
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2014-05-08T14:38:17Z beach: I think I'll pass for now.
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2014-05-08T14:39:17Z beach: moore: Somehow I must have given you the impression that I was not interested in ACCEPT for CLIM3/CLIMatis.
2014-05-08T14:41:03Z moore: beach: No, that's not what I thought.
2014-05-08T14:41:17Z beach: Oh, good.
2014-05-08T14:41:26Z drewc1: Xach: sorry, just woke up and yours was the first I saw ... so getting in to 'work mode' means that : CL-USER> (eval `((lambda (x) (1+ x)) ,+))
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2014-05-08T14:42:04Z Xach: drewc1: That does not help me much.
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2014-05-08T14:42:08Z Xach: Or at all.
2014-05-08T14:42:24Z Xach: Are you getting Bourguignon Syndrome?
2014-05-08T14:42:34Z drewc1: hence my apology first!
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2014-05-08T14:43:37Z Xach: What happens to me fairly often is I start probing around with function calls, and then start picking apart results in *, and then 50 interactions later I want to re-try some entry from history, but it critically relies on *, **, or *** for context to work.
2014-05-08T14:44:52Z moore: The question is more along the lines of: "Does ACCEPT need to block in READ, with lots of magic to throw the clicked-on or translated presentations?
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2014-05-08T14:45:30Z Krystof: Xach: maybe you could hack * to insert the most recent presentation when it's preceded by a space (and subsequent hits of * to replace it with the previous one)
2014-05-08T14:45:35Z drewc: xach : I quite literally have a (defparameter % *) in my history because I have done so as well and hence try to avoid using * in forms
2014-05-08T14:45:45Z splittist: Xach: so you end up with (list * (caddr **) (frobnable ***)), but relative to a '*' of long ago? Or what Krystof said.
2014-05-08T14:46:02Z beach: moore: I guess it depends on what you mean by "block". :)
2014-05-08T14:46:08Z splittist grumbles that Krystof made miss his train Wednesday...
2014-05-08T14:46:12Z Krystof: sorry
2014-05-08T14:46:20Z splittist: s/e m/e him m/
2014-05-08T14:46:26Z Krystof: if it's any consolation, I regretted our late-night excapade all of yesterday too :)
2014-05-08T14:46:33Z Krystof: though I didn't miss my train
2014-05-08T14:46:36Z beach: moore: I mean, the event loop is still running, so as long as clicking is done in the event loop, it should still work.
2014-05-08T14:46:38Z Xach: splittist: yes.
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2014-05-08T14:47:37Z splittist: Krystof: I'm not really sure you were a but-for cause. On the other hand, I did get to spend 3 hours at Gare de Lyon while FO picketed Fauchon and Paul...
2014-05-08T14:47:40Z Xach: And I often want the form re-evaluated, not the actual value of * at the time.
2014-05-08T14:47:48Z ggole: The code that commits repl entries to history could do the * rewriting
2014-05-08T14:47:52Z moore: beach: Or can we say that ACCEPT can return lisp objects from somewhere, like a dialog form, without really going through the implementation's reader.
2014-05-08T14:48:29Z splittist: Xach: I don't understand that second bit.
2014-05-08T14:48:43Z beach: moore: Isn't that what it is currently doing?
2014-05-08T14:48:56Z moore: beach: The event loop is running somewhere, but the CLIM2 model is very much that the application blocks doing ACCEPT, complete with input editing and all hair.
2014-05-08T14:49:27Z beach: moore: What is the negative aspect of blocking like that?
2014-05-08T14:49:31Z Xach: splittist: for stateful forms. like i prefer for (list *) to be resurrected as (list (get-universal-time)) intead of the value of g-u-t at that time in history.
2014-05-08T14:49:53Z beach: moore: Crap, we really need to discuss this over the bottle of wine you suggested, but I am going to be busy all this weekend.
2014-05-08T14:50:09Z Xach: At least, I think I do. I don't know how it would feel in practice.
2014-05-08T14:50:28Z splittist: Xach: I think you might need more modifier keys...
2014-05-08T14:51:19Z splittist: Super-star is a good name for a repl facility, though.
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2014-05-08T14:51:47Z Xach: maybe I could use some other unicode glyph that looks like * but is really a magical symbol macro
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2014-05-08T14:52:06Z moore: beach: The biggest problem I see is that it is awkward to hook up to a toolkit that delivers events through callbacks, without running the app in a separate thread.
2014-05-08T14:52:07Z Xach: maybe one that looks like http://xach.com/misc/lambda.html
2014-05-08T14:52:22Z moore: beach: Which we do now anyway :)
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2014-05-08T14:52:54Z hitecnologys: Aw, is there anything usable for drawing pie charts with vecto out there? I'm too lazy to write my own inefficient one again.
2014-05-08T14:52:56Z moore: beach: But that becomes a problem, because many systems don't react well to doing draw calls in a different thread from the "main" thread.
2014-05-08T14:53:07Z Xach: hitecnologys: adw-charting perhaps
2014-05-08T14:53:35Z moore: gendl: I've been meaning to ask a perhaps naive question: how does the solids kernel in free gendl compare to e.g., Open Cascade?
2014-05-08T14:53:36Z beach: moore: I see.  Well, I wasn't planning to hook up CLIMatis to any other toolkit, which is why I guess I don't see the problem.
2014-05-08T14:53:43Z hitecnologys: Xach: trying to make it work now.
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2014-05-08T14:54:07Z moore: beach: You might want to run it on a Mac sometime.
2014-05-08T14:54:42Z Krystof: same idea then but with * to look up things in history
2014-05-08T14:54:45Z moore: beach: Also, I was enthusiastic about GLFW, but now I see it does everything through callbacks too.
2014-05-08T14:55:02Z moore: beach: Who knows, maybe we need to look at this differently.
2014-05-08T14:55:03Z Krystof: C-* is undefined
2014-05-08T14:55:18Z moore: Krystof: Hello btw :)
2014-05-08T14:55:27Z Krystof: howdy!  It's like it's 2004 again
2014-05-08T14:55:36Z moore: Pretty much.
2014-05-08T14:55:40Z beach: moore: Yes, maybe so.  It would be more efficient if we did this in person I think.
2014-05-08T14:56:18Z moore: beach: Yeah.
2014-05-08T14:57:05Z moore: beach: You know I'm working in Merignac; perhaps lunch someday would be good, without the full bottle of wine :)
2014-05-08T14:57:34Z beach: moore: Sure!
2014-05-08T14:58:01Z splittist: Pick an input form from the repl history. Return evaluates it in the current context. Super-* pops up a history of results, from which you can choose one as the base '*' to be used as the context. Super-+ gives you a history of forms, from which you can similarly choose a base to be interpolated. Complicate at will.
2014-05-08T14:58:11Z beach: moore: Or maybe the weekend of the ascension.
2014-05-08T14:58:43Z moore: beach: Actually, my parents are visiting then, and we are all going to go to Catalonia for the weekend.
2014-05-08T14:58:52Z beach: moore: Nice!
2014-05-08T14:59:07Z moore: Rachel and I scoped out a fabulous hotel a couple of months ago.
2014-05-08T14:59:18Z hitecnologys: Holy crap, I'd better write my own horrible and slow one than use what adw-charting offers.
2014-05-08T14:59:21Z pjb: Xach:  you could easily write a repl that would save the history in a seriel of %iN variables and results in %oN variables, like, eg. in octave, so you would use eg. %i42 %i41 and %i40 instead of * ** and ***, in %i43, and next time you use %i43, it would still have the correct absolute references.
2014-05-08T14:59:25Z beach: moore: French Catalonia or Spanish Catalonia?
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2014-05-08T15:00:17Z moore: beach: Spanish. What is French Catalonia; Perpignan and Collioure?
2014-05-08T15:00:23Z H4ns: hitecnologys: because....?
2014-05-08T15:00:48Z hitecnologys: H4ns: looks horrible. My eyes are in pain now.
2014-05-08T15:00:55Z splittist: pjb: fair enough. The * etc. idea came from/was inspired by MACSYMA.
2014-05-08T15:01:02Z moore: pjb: You could fire up Maxima, and you would even have your Lisp :)
2014-05-08T15:01:05Z H4ns: hitecnologys: "aha"
2014-05-08T15:01:07Z moore: Oh, what splittist said.
2014-05-08T15:01:09Z beach: moore: Don't know the exact definition, but somewhere around the east part of the border.
2014-05-08T15:01:13Z hitecnologys: H4ns: well, they are in a constant pain but now it became worse.
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2014-05-08T15:01:42Z Xach: hitecnologys: Why does it look horrible?
2014-05-08T15:02:20Z pjb: moore: I doubt Xach would like this suggestion.
2014-05-08T15:02:30Z beach should go spend time with his (admittedly small) family, and think about what to cook for dinner.
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2014-05-08T15:02:44Z Xach: I don't mind fabulous hotels.
2014-05-08T15:02:52Z moore: beach: OK, say hi to the family from all of us!
2014-05-08T15:02:59Z beach: will do.
2014-05-08T15:03:07Z moore: Xach: Fabulous hotels and Maxima?
2014-05-08T15:03:21Z hitecnologys: Xach: maybe it's just vecto but I don't like the way it anti-aliases lines, and I also don't like colors and design.
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2014-05-08T15:05:31Z Xach: OK.
2014-05-08T15:05:42Z Xach: Colors and design are pretty important.
2014-05-08T15:07:04Z Xach: hitecnologys: do you have an example of colors and design you like?
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2014-05-08T15:08:30Z hitecnologys: Xach: I like grey and everything related to it. My CL-Twilightandia thing might be the best example of what I prefer but it's down at the moment. Although, I can bring it up if you want to see it for yourself.
2014-05-08T15:08:48Z hitecnologys: I was actually thinking about using TeX but I can't seem to make nor pandoc nor latex4ht nor latex2html work with macros I use for drawing charts.
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2014-05-08T15:09:23Z hitecnologys: And using PDF is no good, it dosn't solve the problem.
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2014-05-08T15:10:02Z Krystof: what problem, specifically?
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2014-05-08T15:10:26Z Xach: hitecnologys: it is hard for me to grasp in prose. do you have pictures you could share?
2014-05-08T15:10:31Z hitecnologys: Krystof: pie charts and charts in general. My own lib I used for drawing the last time is horrible.
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2014-05-08T15:11:16Z hitecnologys: Xach: wait a minute, I'll start the thing.
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2014-05-08T15:13:19Z Krystof: and the standard advice against pie charts doesn't apply?  For charts in general I would use R with a suitable graphics device, which could be tikz
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2014-05-08T15:14:18Z genkinodenki: is there a function to convert a binary vector to decimal?
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2014-05-08T15:14:46Z hitecnologys: Krystof: Yeah, I was thinking about using R too, actually. Maybe I will use it next time but not now as it will take quite a while to learn it for me.
2014-05-08T15:14:46Z Krystof: genkinodenki: no -- maybe you should be using a number to begin with
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2014-05-08T15:15:48Z hitecnologys: And, by the way, what's community opinion on the quality of charts in my JSON encoders/decoders comparison?
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2014-05-08T15:17:29Z genkinodenki: Krystof: I am writing a game engine and I need to check if a terrain tile has other similar tiles adjacent to it, and as there are 8 tiles surrounding the center, I'm using an 8-bit vector to mark each tile as 1 or 0 (having same tile or not).  can you suggest something better?
2014-05-08T15:17:58Z hitecnologys: Xach: warning: content may be inappropriate for certain categories of people. And don't tell me I didn't warn you! http://109.120.41.125:8080/
2014-05-08T15:18:23Z oGMo: genkinodenki: you're marking each tile with information you could get by just checking the relevant tiles?
2014-05-08T15:18:42Z Xach: hitecnologys: How can I tell if I'm in that category?
2014-05-08T15:18:54Z genkinodenki: oGMo: can you elaborate?
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2014-05-08T15:19:32Z oGMo: genkinodenki: why have a bit vector and not just check the actual tiles?
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2014-05-08T15:20:11Z Krystof: why do you need to convert that 8-bit vector to decimal?
2014-05-08T15:20:23Z oGMo: genkinodenki: i could see if you had a bit vector to cache _all_ tiles, once, but from your description you're storing that data redundantly 8x(+)
2014-05-08T15:20:30Z hitecnologys: Xach: not sure. I'm just used to warning everyone that this site may cause permanent brain damage and/or spontaneous hatred towards me.
2014-05-08T15:20:31Z gendl: moore: there is no solids kernel in free gendl.
2014-05-08T15:20:48Z genkinodenki: oGMo: I am checking the tiles, but I need to draw different graphics depending on which of the surrounding tiles are the same, and the first thing I came up with was using an 8-bit vector to hold the true/false value of whether they contain the tile, and use that as an index to another vector containing the different graphics
2014-05-08T15:20:53Z hitecnologys: Xach: it's usually safe for work, though.
2014-05-08T15:20:56Z gendl: only built-in wireframe volumetric primitives
2014-05-08T15:21:04Z hitecnologys: Xach: I think you'll be fine.
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2014-05-08T15:21:18Z oGMo: genkinodenki: that seems like a bad idea, and especially bad if you plan on changing tiles, ever
2014-05-08T15:21:24Z moore: gendl: Oh. I was mistaken... I thought I saw code in there to do fillets and things.
2014-05-08T15:21:37Z oGMo: as every update would require 8 other updates
2014-05-08T15:21:41Z gendl: well, there is a global-filleted-polyline
2014-05-08T15:21:43Z gendl: which has fillets.
2014-05-08T15:22:02Z Krystof: genkinodenki: you could use an 8-bit integer
2014-05-08T15:22:09Z moore: gendl: How about extrude and sweep?
2014-05-08T15:22:12Z gendl: and which can be extruded into a global-filleted-polygon-extrusion
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2014-05-08T15:22:31Z gendl: no sweep primitive currently built-in to core gendl
2014-05-08T15:22:35Z gendl: shall we take this to #gendl?
2014-05-08T15:22:43Z genkinodenki: Krystof: what do you mean?  sorry I'm a horrible noob
2014-05-08T15:23:00Z moore: gendl: Oh sure! didn't realize there was such a channel.
2014-05-08T15:24:15Z Krystof: instead of using an 8-bit vector to store your 8 bits of information and convert the 8 bits into a number for looup, you can use an integer directly
2014-05-08T15:24:18Z Xach: hitecnologys: I'm sure there's nothing on your site that could make me esteem you less.
2014-05-08T15:24:21Z j_king_: genkinodenki: check out marching squares algo
2014-05-08T15:24:34Z genkinodenki: j_king_: will do, cheers
2014-05-08T15:24:57Z genkinodenki: Krystof: how would I go about doing that, though?  I simply can't figure this out
2014-05-08T15:24:57Z Xach: But I don't see any charts.
2014-05-08T15:25:17Z hitecnologys: Xach: there are no charts, I thought you were talking about colors.
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2014-05-08T15:25:44Z hitecnologys: Xach: if you want charts with such colors, then: http://hitecnologys.org/1
2014-05-08T15:26:15Z hitecnologys: Xach: but you've probably already seem them.
2014-05-08T15:26:15Z Krystof: genkinodenki: (let ((result 0)) (dotimes (i 8 result) (when (same-neighbour-p (neighbour i)) (setf (ldb (byte 1 i) result) 1))))
2014-05-08T15:26:29Z Krystof: (though I tend to agree that this is probably not all that good an idea)
2014-05-08T15:26:33Z genkinodenki: oGMo: tbh I didn't think of that, but I guess you're right it's inefficient
2014-05-08T15:26:37Z hitecnologys: Xach: and yes, I don't have examples of pie charts which I would like.
2014-05-08T15:26:53Z hitecnologys: Xach: working on it at the moment.
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2014-05-08T15:28:11Z oGMo: genkinodenki: i'm not sure how you wouldn't be better off checking individual neighboring tiles, but in theory you could have one large bit vector for all tiles .. that way a set/remove at least is only 1 additional update
2014-05-08T15:29:00Z hitecnologys: Xach: however, charts from this package do look nice: http://ftp.sun.ac.za/ftp/CTAN/graphics/pgf/contrib/pgf-pie/pgf-pie-manual.pdf
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2014-05-08T15:29:54Z sellout: hitecnologys: Oh man, please never use any chart like those in that PDF.
2014-05-08T15:30:07Z j_king_: oGMo genkinodenki: http://blog.project-retrograde.com/2013/05/marching-squares/
2014-05-08T15:30:11Z j_king_: :D
2014-05-08T15:30:24Z hitecnologys: sellout: why?
2014-05-08T15:30:41Z Krystof: where's my "1000 reasons pie charts are awful" document when I need it?
2014-05-08T15:30:47Z Krystof: (pgf generally is nice, though)
2014-05-08T15:30:54Z sellout: Krystof: Exactly :D
2014-05-08T15:31:00Z hitecnologys: OK, I get it, no pie charts.
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2014-05-08T15:31:17Z sellout: hitecnologys: It starts with pie charts, and then moves along the axis of “how can we make them harder to read?”
2014-05-08T15:31:42Z hitecnologys: I'll just stick to my old drawing kit then, I've just rewritten it and it does work better now.
2014-05-08T15:31:51Z hitecnologys: sellout: I see.
2014-05-08T15:31:56Z Krystof: http://www.datavis.ca/gallery/evil-pies.php
2014-05-08T15:33:46Z Xach is fond of the idea of pie menus
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2014-05-08T15:35:05Z sellout: Xach: Like this? http://stationstreetpgh.com
2014-05-08T15:35:10Z sellout: :D
2014-05-08T15:35:36Z oGMo: j_king_: yeah, like voxels, but 2D heh
2014-05-08T15:35:58Z genkinodenki: oGMo: aka. pixels? ;D
2014-05-08T15:36:02Z j_king_: oGMo: the algorithm iirc, is n-dimensional
2014-05-08T15:36:02Z Xach: more like http://www.donhopkins.com/drupal/taxonomy_menu/4/49/14/18
2014-05-08T15:36:04Z oGMo: genkinodenki: no, not pixels
2014-05-08T15:36:12Z j_king_: the link focuses on 2d
2014-05-08T15:36:20Z j_king_: but the same can be applied on a 3d mesh as well
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2014-05-08T15:37:01Z genkinodenki: j_king_: I was actually considering splitting the tiles into smaller constituent parts, but figured I'd make a dumb version first and see where it goes.  but this seems better thought out
2014-05-08T15:37:14Z oGMo: j_king_: but, yeah, neat ;)
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2014-05-08T15:38:00Z j_king_: genkinodenki: no problem... sometimes the hardest part is figuring out the name of your problem. ;)
2014-05-08T15:38:28Z genkinodenki: j_king_: true :D
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2014-05-08T15:40:38Z mood: I'm having a bit of a problem with ASDF. In my defsystem I use a component type defined by a dependency, but upon quickloading my system asdf complains it doesn't know the component type.
2014-05-08T15:41:07Z mood: I'd expect it to first load the dependencies, but if I do it myself before loading my system it does work
2014-05-08T15:41:41Z Xach: mood: you might be able to use :defsystem-depends-on
2014-05-08T15:41:57Z Xach: mood: normal :depends-on is for dependencies of the project, not of the system definition.
2014-05-08T15:42:12Z mood: Xach: Thanks, that makes sense
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2014-05-08T15:44:25Z Xach: Of course, since the entire form is read before any of it is evaluated, you can't use prefixed symbols to name component types with that scheme.
2014-05-08T15:44:35Z Xach: I think the manual has some remarks on the topic.
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2014-05-08T16:14:01Z pjb: genkinodenki: you could use dpb and logbitp to set and test directly bits in an integer.
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2014-05-08T16:17:55Z pjb: genkinodenki: But otherwise, I'd have serious doubts about your programming capacity if you can't convert a binary representation into an integer.  This is a single function call! (reduce (let ((2^n 1)) (lambda (value bit) (prog1 (+ value (* 2^n bit)) (setf 2^n (* 2 2^n))))) #*10101 :initial-value 0)
2014-05-08T16:19:13Z moore: pjb:Still supportive as ever, I see :)
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2014-05-08T16:20:52Z pjb: Well, I have an agenda.  You see, I was taught base in primary school, along with modern maths.  I want people to realize they've received crappy education, and to move to improve it!  Since 1968, it only has worsened…
2014-05-08T16:21:50Z moore: pjb: You were in primaire before 1968?
2014-05-08T16:23:21Z pjb: Well, just about.  I certainly played with those little cubes to build 1, 2, 2x2, 2x2x2 etc. and blocks to make sets, unions, intersections etc {triangles, circles, rectangles} x { red, blue, yellow}.
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2014-05-08T16:23:28Z pjb: I was born in 1964.
2014-05-08T16:23:53Z moore: pjb: I did that in the U.S.! 2 years after you.
2014-05-08T16:23:54Z Xach: Happy 70th!
2014-05-08T16:24:01Z pjb: Before 1970, on saturday morning, I was watching on TV lessions of electronics and boolean logic, etc.
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2014-05-08T16:24:20Z pjb: lessons
2014-05-08T16:24:45Z pjb: Nowadays, on saturday morning, they get spongebob.
2014-05-08T16:24:58Z moore: Which is brilliant, by the way.
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2014-05-08T16:25:06Z xvzf: Hi, this is quite cryptic for me: (DEFMACRO ITERATE (&REST L) `(SLOOP::SLOOP ,@ L)) what should I read to understand it? As you can guess I'm a newbie in lisp.
2014-05-08T16:25:25Z pjb: moore: this is not with spongebob that you will create a space-age civilization.
2014-05-08T16:25:31Z Xach: xvzf: Practical Common Lisp is a good book on the topi
2014-05-08T16:25:34Z Xach: topic, rather
2014-05-08T16:25:42Z moore: pjb:I beg to differ :)
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2014-05-08T16:32:46Z moore: Has anyone compared the performance of GC finalization in the various implementations?
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2014-05-08T16:35:48Z genkinodenki: pjb: I didn't have a problem with converting binary to decimal myself, just asking if there was a single function (not entirely unreasonable assumption IMO) so I could avoid cluttering my already incomprehensible code more :)  and I ended up benefiting in unexpected ways, as is often the case ;)  thanks though
2014-05-08T16:36:08Z whartung: seems like that actual finalization logic (i.e. the code called to finalize an object) would be the dominant factor in that moore
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2014-05-08T16:40:06Z moore: whartung: I would think it depends a lot on how the system keeps track of objects that will need to be finalized. E.g., a linear list could get expensive.
2014-05-08T16:40:20Z moore: But I could be talking out my ass.
2014-05-08T16:40:42Z stassats: a list with weak pointers
2014-05-08T16:40:47Z whartung: well, it could either queue the list up, or it could finalize them as it was running through in the collecting process.
2014-05-08T16:41:12Z whartung: even if they're stored in a linear list, the cost is appending to the list (and knowing Lisp, it's likely a linked list, which is "cheap" to extend)
2014-05-08T16:41:24Z whartung: then it's simply a matter of iterating over the list and calling the finalize logic.
2014-05-08T16:41:40Z whartung: and, I too, could be talking out my ass.
2014-05-08T16:41:51Z whartung: Not like I know, Ijus tmake this stuff up.
2014-05-08T16:41:51Z moore: whartung: No, it'st the scanning I'm worried about, since GC normally doesn't even have to look at objects that are garbage.
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2014-05-08T16:42:01Z moore: At least for certain common algorithms.
2014-05-08T16:42:07Z whartung: oic
2014-05-08T16:42:15Z whartung: yea, that hadn't occurred to me
2014-05-08T16:42:30Z whartung: it may well capture the need to finalize them at allocation time
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2014-05-08T16:43:06Z whartung: but I see you your point given a generic copying collector
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2014-05-08T16:46:41Z moore: Maybe one of those non-problems in practice, though I see in the C# world they give some thought to it.
2014-05-08T16:46:43Z moore: bbl
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2014-05-08T17:22:17Z mega1: moore: one of the clisp devs compared weak ref implementations several years ago
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2014-05-08T17:24:00Z mega1: http://www.haible.de/bruno/papers/cs/weak/WeakDatastructures-writeup.html
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2014-05-08T17:33:44Z rk[1]: anyone here do any FPGA work? i am soon to be an owner of one and was curious if there are any good lisp-like hdl that anyone uses.
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2014-05-08T17:48:49Z bobbysmith007: rk[1]: perhaps this thread might help (though you have probably seen it) https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/25YCV2kLk4Q
2014-05-08T17:50:09Z moore: megal:Thanks.
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2014-05-08T18:30:16Z Vivitron: Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134707 is something I sometimes use instead of *. It's mostly cut and paste from slime's repl history search but tweaked to splice the search at the point
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2014-05-08T18:33:07Z stassats: it says "swank has" and then says "slime...", which means that it's not from swank
2014-05-08T18:34:11Z rk[1]: bobbysmith007: thanks. i have seen the thread before but only read in to the first handful of post. still it leaves me with the question as *if* anyone has done this for any FPGAs yet.
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2014-05-08T18:36:41Z Bicyclidine: rk[1]: there's a lot of vendor lock-in and opaque formats around FPGA programming
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2014-05-08T18:38:43Z rk[1]: Bicyclidine: aye, i was afraid of that :/
2014-05-08T18:39:04Z rk[1]: we need to (free) them.
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2014-05-08T18:56:00Z BitPuffin: Hmm, I'm thinking maybe I'll learn lisp better if I just write stuff in it rather than reading a full book about it first, what do you guys think?
2014-05-08T18:56:39Z stassats: do both
2014-05-08T18:57:22Z phadthai: I agree with stassats
2014-05-08T18:57:28Z BitPuffin: well I don't mean blindly writing lisp and getting stuck, but more like, trying to write stuff, while glancing at the hyperspec or something
2014-05-08T18:58:06Z stassats: glancing at the hyperspec won't teach you much
2014-05-08T18:58:35Z BitPuffin: yeah, I'm a bit worried that without reading a book at the same time I won't gain like insights on how to use macros to their full potential
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2014-05-08T18:59:14Z oleo: right
2014-05-08T18:59:20Z oleo: first a book helps....
2014-05-08T18:59:20Z dlowe: BitPuffin: don't forget to read lisp code
2014-05-08T18:59:24Z oleo: then small samples....
2014-05-08T18:59:39Z dlowe: you'll learn more from reading lisp code written by experts than nearly any other resource
2014-05-08T18:59:55Z stassats: i wouldn't take oleo's advice on how to learn lisp
2014-05-08T18:59:57Z dlowe: as long as you make sure you really comprehend what you're reading
2014-05-08T19:00:08Z BitPuffin: problem is that the book I'm reading, while I am enjoying it, maybe it would be better with a book that is more straight to the point :P
2014-05-08T19:00:17Z oleo: heh
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2014-05-08T19:00:40Z BitPuffin: dlowe: well what's an exceptionally amazing open source lisp project I can read from then :P
2014-05-08T19:00:55Z dlowe: it doesn't have to be amazing
2014-05-08T19:01:05Z dlowe: but read something that does stuff similar to what you want to do
2014-05-08T19:01:13Z stassats: whatever you choose to do, don't give up
2014-05-08T19:01:15Z dlowe: oh skeptical one.
2014-05-08T19:01:17Z oleo: well some mcclim stuff is.....
2014-05-08T19:01:44Z oleo: otherwise ....there are so many libs you can take a look at.....
2014-05-08T19:01:59Z Xach: uff. paste.lisp.org has been spammed pretty hard.
2014-05-08T19:02:27Z dlowe: Xach: There's a special level of hell for pastebin spammers and wiki vandals
2014-05-08T19:02:35Z BitPuffin: I guess what I'll mainly be using it for is web stuff, like web apps, irc, and also high performance stuff like interfacing with C libraries and so on
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2014-05-08T19:02:56Z BitPuffin: Lisp is probably a good language to get a bit better at AI with :P
2014-05-08T19:03:09Z oleo: lol
2014-05-08T19:03:46Z oleo: font adverts.....
2014-05-08T19:04:44Z stassats: probably a time to add some "delete paste" functionality
2014-05-08T19:05:17Z BitPuffin: I'm also learning emacs, however I hear elisp is not very traditional lispy
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2014-05-08T19:05:36Z stassats: if you squint your eyes, you can pretend it is
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2014-05-08T19:06:21Z stassats: and i would guess the oldish elisp is more _traditional_, without lexical bindings
2014-05-08T19:07:08Z BitPuffin: well mainly because it's very state driven
2014-05-08T19:07:31Z BitPuffin: whereas the preferred way is generally making programs as stateless as possible right? Passing functions around etc
2014-05-08T19:08:04Z Xach: No.
2014-05-08T19:08:15Z BitPuffin: or DSLs
2014-05-08T19:08:18Z BitPuffin: I dunno :P
2014-05-08T19:08:36Z stassats: the preferred way is to use the best way suited for the problem
2014-05-08T19:09:07Z BitPuffin: sounds practical enough
2014-05-08T19:09:55Z stassats: and to add "delete paste", i need to add some sort of logging in, nah, another day
2014-05-08T19:10:16Z stassats: the old araneida parts have this, but they are so ugly, i don't want to look at it again
2014-05-08T19:10:35Z phadthai: if only paste posters knew the id to access them (without a public history), how could spamming it be useful
2014-05-08T19:11:56Z phadthai: although a history can be a nice feature admitedly
2014-05-08T19:12:24Z stassats: i don't quite understand your last two messages
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2014-05-08T19:13:06Z phadthai: if the paste history/list was removed, it would be less useful for spammers, as only people knowing the paste ID could see their posts
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2014-05-08T19:13:34Z stassats: why should it be removed just because of some pesky spammers?
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2014-05-08T19:17:32Z pjb: phadthai: paste IDs are sequential on paste.lisp.org.
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2014-05-08T19:17:36Z phadthai: the alternatives would be moderation (time-expensive), automatic filters (error prone), free delete option (allowing vendalism), community flagging (needing registration so annoying for users), letting the spam stay...
2014-05-08T19:17:50Z phadthai: pjb: ok yes they'd then have to also be less predictable
2014-05-08T19:18:55Z phadthai: ah, another one would be registration needed to post, but also annoying for users
2014-05-08T19:19:07Z pjb: and doesn't prevent spammers.
2014-05-08T19:19:17Z phadthai: right, it's just a little more work for them
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2014-05-08T19:19:45Z phadthai: a captcha could also help against automatic posting, but manual spamming would remain easy
2014-05-08T19:20:03Z Xach: there is a captcha, of sorts
2014-05-08T19:20:35Z phadthai: a symbolic captcha :)
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2014-05-08T19:22:28Z stassats: i deleted today's spam
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2014-05-08T19:23:27Z BitPuffin: hm chicken scheme seems quite interesting
2014-05-08T19:23:43Z stassats: and it seems to be have done by hand, because the captcha is really weak, i could crack it in 15 minutes an spam the thing to death
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2014-05-08T19:24:42Z stassats: especially with the title "What do you get when you multiply 42 by 72?", but even the image itself is easily decodable
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2014-05-08T19:25:19Z Xach: stassats: that's not exactly discouraging information because you are pretty good at stuff (e.g. qr codes)
2014-05-08T19:25:30Z stassats: oh no
2014-05-08T19:26:00Z rszeno maybe will be better to be "prove Riemman hypotesis"
2014-05-08T19:27:13Z stassats: and, patches are welcome
2014-05-08T19:27:35Z phadthai: BitPuffin: I agree, I like chicken and ecl for using C (chicken is scheme of course, where #scheme would be more appropriate to discuss further)
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2014-05-08T19:29:03Z BitPuffin: phadthai: ecl?, ah thought that since scheme is a lisp dialect this would be the place to discuss, sorry :D
2014-05-08T19:29:32Z j_king: BitPuffin: a *common* mistake. ;)
2014-05-08T19:29:37Z phadthai: BitPuffin: no problem there, and it's not always obvious that #lisp is for common lisp :)
2014-05-08T19:30:08Z BitPuffin: ah, yeah I thought it was lisp in general but with a focus on common lisp, because it's the "main" lisp :P
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2014-05-08T20:04:46Z jdz: phadthai: topic not obvious?
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2014-05-08T20:16:10Z dim: how to check for a unix namestring being an executable file in SBCL and CCL? (I'm using uiop:parse-unix-namestring for the parsing)
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2014-05-08T20:18:51Z pjb: dim: try to execute it.
2014-05-08T20:18:59Z pjb: Perhaps you want to ask another question.
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2014-05-08T20:19:13Z dim: yeah... but...
2014-05-08T20:19:26Z pjb: dim:  man 2 stat ; man 2 fstat
2014-05-08T20:19:26Z stassats: dim: stat
2014-05-08T20:19:33Z dim: I'm checking a use configuration file, I should only check for the file existing maybe
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2014-05-08T20:20:46Z pjb: For example, if you check the mode bits, and see that it has a x bit (and it resolves to a regular file), then if you try to execute it, it may be that it's a binary for another system, or a script for which the interpreter is not installed.
2014-05-08T20:20:52Z stassats: (sb-posix:stat-mode (sb-posix:stat "/bin/bash"))
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2014-05-08T20:21:20Z pjb: So it's clearly insufficient.
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2014-05-08T20:22:22Z pjb: Better use man 2 access, it will check the mode with respect to the uid/gid of the file and uid/gid of the process.
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2014-05-08T20:23:07Z pjb: And again, given that it's a multiprocess system, between your call of access and that of exec, another process may call chmod and get you.
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2014-05-08T20:23:44Z stassats: (sb-posix:access "/bin/bash" sb-posix:x-ok)
2014-05-08T20:23:53Z stassats: but it will signal an error
2014-05-08T20:24:17Z Xach: Will sb-posix:access convert to a native namestring?
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2014-05-08T20:25:27Z rszeno: patchk can check if is a valid name
2014-05-08T20:26:11Z stassats: Xach: which other kind of namestring could it convert?
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2014-05-08T20:27:17Z Xach: stassats: I can imagine sb-posix taking strings as-is without conversion.
2014-05-08T20:27:32Z Xach: Except to the octets needed to pass to the call.
2014-05-08T20:27:35Z stassats: that wouldn't be very useful, it does convert
2014-05-08T20:28:02Z Xach: it would work most of the time, except when it didn't.
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2014-05-08T20:35:49Z dim: well I think my idea to control that the user did setup an executable file is doomed, better fail when trying to use it
2014-05-08T20:36:06Z dim: what happens if he wants to first start my software then apt-get install run-time dependencies?
2014-05-08T20:36:20Z stassats: a restart, naturally
2014-05-08T20:36:40Z stassats: the one that quicklisp doesn't have
2014-05-08T20:36:54Z dim: I'm just removing the check now
2014-05-08T20:37:55Z Xach: Isn't it the restart cffi does have?
2014-05-08T20:38:28Z stassats: right
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2014-05-08T21:11:24Z nicdev: I have often felt that programming is an art form,
2014-05-08T21:11:24Z nicdev:      whose real value can only be appreciated
2014-05-08T21:11:24Z nicdev:      by another versed in the same arcane art;
2014-05-08T21:11:24Z nicdev:      there are lovely gems and brilliant coups
2014-05-08T21:11:27Z nicdev: I have often felt that programming is an art form,
2014-05-08T21:11:30Z nicdev:      whose real value can only be appreciated
2014-05-08T21:11:33Z nicdev:      by another versed in the same arcane art;
2014-05-08T21:11:38Z nicdev:      there are lovely gems and brilliant coups
2014-05-08T21:11:41Z nicdev: I have often felt that programming is an art form,
2014-05-08T21:11:41Z nicdev:      whose real value can only be appreciated
2014-05-08T21:11:44Z nicdev:      by another versed in the same arcane art;
2014-05-08T21:11:47Z nicdev:      there are lovely gems and brilliant coups
2014-05-08T21:11:50Z nicdev:      hidden from human view and admiration, sometimes forever,
2014-05-08T21:11:54Z nicdev:      by the very nature of the process.
2014-05-08T21:11:57Z nicdev:      You can learn a lot about an individual
2014-05-08T21:12:00Z nicdev:      just by reading through his code,
2014-05-08T21:12:03Z nicdev:      even in hexadecimal.
2014-05-08T21:12:08Z nicdev: did not mean to post that
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2014-05-08T21:12:37Z rszeno: nice
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2014-05-08T21:13:46Z nicdev: key mixups and that happened to be on my clipboard. def off topic here
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2014-05-08T21:15:19Z phadthai: lisp poets risking martyr-kick for not using a pastebin :)
2014-05-08T21:15:29Z phadthai: jdz: topic is fine
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2014-05-08T22:58:01Z CrazyWoods: Are there many robot on this channel?
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2014-05-08T22:58:56Z DataLinkDroid: CrazyWoods: How does that make you feel?
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2014-05-08T22:59:43Z p_l: CrazyWoods: afaik no
2014-05-08T22:59:52Z p_l: although who knows about lurkers
2014-05-08T23:00:00Z Shinmera: I only know of three.
2014-05-08T23:00:06Z p_l: ccl-logbot and minion are well known
2014-05-08T23:00:09Z p_l: dunno about rest
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2014-05-08T23:00:30Z p_l meanwhile wonders why AllegroGraph is not pushed more as Lisp success story
2014-05-08T23:00:55Z CrazyWoods: only three?
2014-05-08T23:01:10Z Shinmera: I'm saying I only /know/ of three.
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2014-05-08T23:01:31Z Shinmera: Two of which p_l mentioned, the other being mine.
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2014-05-08T23:01:47Z pjb: CrazyWoods: you could try to engage each of us, and see for yourself if we're robots or not.
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2014-05-08T23:04:06Z CrazyWoods: pjb: :)
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2014-05-08T23:04:30Z CrazyWoods: what would be a good choice for cross platform GUI toolkit
2014-05-08T23:04:42Z pjb: OpenStep
2014-05-08T23:05:01Z pjb: As in GNUstep on MS-Windows and Linux, and Cocoa on MacOSX.
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2014-05-08T23:07:59Z p_l: does GNUstep work in any sensible way on Windows at all?
2014-05-08T23:08:30Z jasom: CrazyWoods: ltk
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2014-05-08T23:09:17Z CrazyWoods: jasom: does it work on linux and window MacOSX
2014-05-08T23:09:28Z pjb: p_lhttp://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/Platform_compatibility
2014-05-08T23:09:30Z jasom: CrazyWoods: with a basic tclkit executable, it's possible to deliver a GUI application on windows with just 2 files (one for the lisp executable, one for the tclkit executable); for linux and osx, you just require tk to be installed
2014-05-08T23:09:31Z pjb: +:
2014-05-08T23:09:34Z jasom: CrazyWoods: yes
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2014-05-08T23:10:45Z CrazyWoods: it seems a good choice using Cocoa on MacOSX
2014-05-08T23:11:41Z pjb: You may also use GNUstep on MacOSX, but it should be source compatible with Cocoa.
2014-05-08T23:12:34Z CrazyWoods: pjb: lisp building?
2014-05-08T23:12:41Z CrazyWoods: lisp binding
2014-05-08T23:13:25Z pjb: Ah, that's another question.  We'd need a universal Objective-C bridge, that would work portably with all Objective-C compilers, and on all (CFFI enabled) implementations.
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2014-05-08T23:13:59Z jasom: pjb: I think you can assume any question in here about a gui toolkit is asking about lisp specifically...
2014-05-08T23:14:29Z pjb: Yeah, sure.  I'm making a plan. You may implement it faster than I will, I won't mind.
2014-05-08T23:14:29Z CrazyWoods: pjb: Are you doing GUI programming, if so which language and toolkit do you use?
2014-05-08T23:14:44Z pillton: CommonQt works nicely on OSX and FreeBSD. I presume it works on Linux.
2014-05-08T23:14:53Z pjb: Well, right now the customer is happy with only MacOSX, so I use ccl and Cocoa.
2014-05-08T23:15:09Z p_l: pillton: Given that CommonQT afaik *started* on Linux... :)
2014-05-08T23:15:27Z p_l: the only problem of CommonQT is getting some non-lisp libraries running
2014-05-08T23:15:47Z jasom: CrazyWoods: I have written gui applications that work on os x, windows, and linux using ltk.  Development in it can be less than simple at times, but it is stable and highly portable.
2014-05-08T23:16:11Z jasom: CrazyWoods: only downside is that there is no way I can think of to get it working on iOS or android.
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2014-05-08T23:17:41Z CrazyWoods: jasom: apportable?
2014-05-08T23:19:44Z CrazyWoods: Are there someone here knowing how to doing mix programming
2014-05-08T23:20:02Z CrazyWoods: using mix language for special project
2014-05-08T23:20:42Z whartung: Mix, as in Knuths thing?
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2014-05-08T23:21:40Z jasom: CrazyWoods: apportable? <-- not sure what you're asking
2014-05-08T23:21:55Z CrazyWoods: whartung: as for a server side web server there may include C/C++ & python stuff
2014-05-08T23:22:08Z whartung: oh
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2014-05-08T23:22:50Z whartung: so you mean embedding python in a C++ web server?
2014-05-08T23:22:53Z jasom: Actually I do have an idea for how to get ltk working on android, but it involves embedding the entire tcl/tk runtime into a lisp memory image.
2014-05-08T23:23:32Z CrazyWoods: jasom: apportable can be use to compile objective-c to android machine code
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2014-05-08T23:24:47Z jasom: CrazyWoods: wouldn't help with ltk
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2014-05-08T23:24:59Z jasom: ltk uses a separate process for the gui and communicates over a socket
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2014-05-08T23:26:13Z jasom: smartphones are still a nascent platform for common lisp anyway though
2014-05-08T23:26:47Z jasom: s/a nascent platform/nascent platforms/
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2014-05-09T01:03:56Z quazimodo: buildapp relies on makefiles to create its config file doesn't it
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2014-05-09T01:04:14Z quazimodo: as in, you configure the buildapp command line args with a make file eh?
2014-05-09T01:06:12Z eudoxia: you can run buildapp from a shell script or whatever
2014-05-09T01:06:20Z eudoxia: pgloader does use a makefile
2014-05-09T01:07:03Z quazimodo: thats cool :)
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2014-05-09T02:03:18Z Xach: buildapp does not rely on makefiles
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2014-05-09T02:29:01Z ltbarcly: is there a way to have asdf build c code that is being wrapped by cffi or sb-alien or something?
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2014-05-09T02:29:57Z slyrus: and... mach exception handling is back on ccl. fun.
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2014-05-09T02:31:08Z slyrus: ltbarcly: I wrote stuff to automagically compile libraries and parse the C code with gcc-xml and make sb-alien declarations for everything in the .h files. pretty much worked. then I abandoned it.
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2014-05-09T02:49:09Z quazimodo: is there a table of chars somewhere?
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2014-05-09T02:49:32Z quazimodo: eg Control S might map to #\Dc3
2014-05-09T02:51:00Z quazimodo: oh i think i found
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2014-05-09T02:55:31Z quazimodo: nope. Anyone know?
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2014-05-09T03:04:17Z White__Flame: quazimodo: I think that'd be highly dependent on your terminal settings
2014-05-09T03:04:48Z White__Flame: unless you actually mean a byte to control char mapping?
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2014-05-09T03:17:46Z quazimodo: White__Flame: well now that you mention it, I'm sorta apprehensive. I want to use Control+key combos, using getch to grab them. But if they are changing based on terminal, i'm going to need to wrap it all up in something that understands many  terminals, yes?
2014-05-09T03:20:23Z White__Flame: I'm no expert on terminal issues, so I don't know which control keys get reliably translated to bytes 0-31 without the system reinterpreting as something else
2014-05-09T03:20:45Z White__Flame: and that doesn't really help when doing function keys and the sort
2014-05-09T03:21:16Z White__Flame: but it shouldn't be hard to simply print out what's received and try keystrokes to see what comes through
2014-05-09T03:22:44Z White__Flame: some will no doubt be multi-byte sequences
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2014-05-09T03:23:45Z zRecursive: clhs read-char
2014-05-09T03:23:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_cha.htm
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2014-05-09T03:26:40Z quazimodo: yeah I've been doing that. I thuoght perhaps CL implementations will have defined it
2014-05-09T03:26:48Z quazimodo: <- not that knowledgeable on terminal stuff
2014-05-09T03:27:32Z White__Flame: nah, many OS specifics like that are not part of the spec
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2014-05-09T03:31:38Z clop2: does Common Lisp require that the result of (coerce x 'string) must be a freshly created string, assuming X is a character list?
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2014-05-09T03:33:30Z White__Flame: clop2: it doesn't seem like the CLHS description of coerce mandates it
2014-05-09T03:33:54Z White__Flame: I presume the alternative would be interned/flyweighted shared strings?
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2014-05-09T03:34:53Z White__Flame: I would also presume that no major CL implementation does that, and thus will return a freshly allocated string
2014-05-09T03:35:24Z clop2: sure, it does seem crazy, i was just hoping maybe there'd be something i could point to for sure
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2014-05-09T03:36:22Z quazimodo: for some reason I had swank source in /usr/share/common-lisp/source/slime but I don't remember ever installing that :/
2014-05-09T03:36:40Z White__Flame: clop2: defensive copies are your friend, if you must be absolutely certain
2014-05-09T03:37:07Z White__Flame: quazimodo: it likely came with your package manager based installs
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2014-05-09T03:45:28Z quazimodo: White__Flame: wasn't in dpkg :/ anyway...
2014-05-09T03:45:33Z quazimodo: maybe came with emacs
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2014-05-09T04:02:21Z ltbarcly: is there a way to get the path of the current .lisp file?
2014-05-09T04:02:48Z Bike: clhs *load-pathname*
2014-05-09T04:02:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ld_pns.htm
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2014-05-09T07:47:49Z Poenikatu: Good morning all. I've just started to learn about types in Lisp (missing from Graham's ANSI Common Lisp and Seibel's PCL).
2014-05-09T07:49:06Z Poenikatu: What is the point of writing "(let* ((x (list 'a 'b 'c))
2014-05-09T07:49:06Z Poenikatu:                     (y 5))
2014-05-09T07:49:07Z Poenikatu:                (setf (the fixnum (car x)) y)
2014-05-09T07:49:07Z Poenikatu:                x)"
2014-05-09T07:49:26Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: don't paste here.
2014-05-09T07:49:37Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: paste.lisp.org
2014-05-09T07:49:40Z Poenikatu: hitecnologys: Ok, ok. Sorry
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2014-05-09T07:50:28Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: and I don't get your question. What's the point of what, exactly? Of LET*?
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2014-05-09T07:50:43Z H4ns: it is probably "the fixnum" that he's asking abou
2014-05-09T07:50:44Z H4ns: t
2014-05-09T07:50:48Z hitecnologys: Ah.
2014-05-09T07:50:58Z H4ns: Poenikatu: it is an aid for the compiler
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2014-05-09T07:51:16Z Poenikatu: What I wrote was an example of the use of (the... in the CLHS
2014-05-09T07:51:23Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: THE macro is used to tell the compiler about the type of expression.
2014-05-09T07:51:40Z H4ns: Poenikatu: when you compile at low safety levels, the compiler can use type assertions "the <type>" to generate more efficient code (i.e. to not generate run time type checks)
2014-05-09T07:51:54Z Poenikatu: But in the example, clearly (car x) is 'a, which cannot be a fixnum
2014-05-09T07:52:13Z H4ns: Poenikatu: at higher safety levels, type assertions are generally ignored and at lower levels, they can also be skipped over at the compiler's discretion
2014-05-09T07:52:17Z H4ns: Poenikatu: think cons cells
2014-05-09T07:52:52Z H4ns: Poenikatu: older compilers might take the declaration to determine that the fixnum can be directly placed into the cons cell.
2014-05-09T07:53:02Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: Y is a number which is put into CAR of X.
2014-05-09T07:53:02Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Think cons cells? Surely, a list consisting of '(a b c) does not have a fixnum in it.
2014-05-09T07:53:31Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: when we setf (car x) with Y, (car x) becomes Y which is a fixnum.
2014-05-09T07:53:38Z H4ns: Poenikatu: no.  but if your machine represents cons cells as either holding a pointer or a fixnum, the integer can be placed directly into the cons cell using a store operation.
2014-05-09T07:53:39Z Poenikatu: hitecnologys: Yes, I understand that, but the (the form specifies that the car of x is a fixnum, which it clearly is not
2014-05-09T07:53:50Z Bike: "setf can be used with the type declarations. In this case the declaration is transferred to the form that specifies the new value. The resulting setf form is then analyzed. "
2014-05-09T07:53:55Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: well, CAR can hold any value.
2014-05-09T07:53:56Z H4ns: Poenikatu: if this does not make sense to you, the cl type system will not be useful to you.
2014-05-09T07:54:05Z Bike: in other words, (setf (the ...) ...) actuall means (setf ... (the ...))
2014-05-09T07:54:39Z Poenikatu: Bike: Hm
2014-05-09T07:55:27Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Thanks for that, but I am now studying the Foreign Language Interface of LispWorks where the types of C functions are all-important
2014-05-09T07:55:34Z Bike: try, for instance, (get-setf-expansion '(the fixnum (car x)))
2014-05-09T07:55:45Z H4ns: Poenikatu: right.  then you'll have to make sense of it :)
2014-05-09T07:56:28Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Not too easy. I certainly understand the point of specifying types. What I don't understand is the meaning of the (the special form
2014-05-09T07:56:42Z H4ns: Poenikatu: it asserts a type to the compiler.
2014-05-09T07:57:11Z H4ns: Poenikatu: normally, when the compiler sees some form, it needs to determine the type of the expression, and often this involves a run-time type check
2014-05-09T07:57:39Z H4ns: Poenikatu: with type assertions and low safety levels, the compiler can make assumptions about the type of expressions and generate more efficient code.
2014-05-09T07:57:40Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Yes, I understand that.
2014-05-09T07:58:10Z Bike: so what don't you understand?
2014-05-09T07:58:14Z Bike: i mean, that's the whole thing
2014-05-09T07:58:47Z H4ns: Poenikatu: in your example, the type assertion "the fixnum" tells the compiler that a fixnum should be deposited in the car of the first cons cell constituting the list x.  now, normally, there would be a runtime test to determine the type of the value deposited.
2014-05-09T07:59:15Z H4ns: Poenikatu: with the type assertion, the compiler can generate a simple store instruction to the car of the cons cell, skipping the type check
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2014-05-09T07:59:59Z H4ns: Poenikatu: a sufficiently large compiler might even infer that the y is never changed and store a constant in the car.
2014-05-09T08:00:17Z Poenikatu: Bike: In saying, (the fixnum (car (list 'a 'b 'c))) clearly (car x) is a symbol, not a fixnum. Isn't that so?
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2014-05-09T08:00:30Z Bike: i told you how it works in setf forms!
2014-05-09T08:00:47Z Bike: (setf (the fixnum (car x)) y) is like (setf (car x) (the fixnum y))
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2014-05-09T08:01:06Z Poenikatu: Bike: I did do the (setf expansion form and I am aware that setf creates a gensym
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2014-05-09T08:01:24Z H4ns: Poenikatu: it is a place, not a symbol
2014-05-09T08:01:27Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: it's not about gensyms!
2014-05-09T08:01:36Z Poenikatu: Bike: Ok, I'll take your word for it.
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2014-05-09T08:01:43Z Bike: i was just quoting
2014-05-09T08:01:44Z Bike: clhs the
2014-05-09T08:01:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_the.htm
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2014-05-09T08:02:40Z Cymew: I think, just think, the issue here is how (setf x 12) is simple, and (setf (car x) 12) is different is at the core of the issue, right? I always find that latter expression throws people off.
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2014-05-09T08:03:05Z Cymew: ...or maybe I'm just totally wrong about Poenikatu's issue...
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2014-05-09T08:03:39Z Poenikatu: Cymew: I understand that setq refers to values whereas setf refers to places, or can do
2014-05-09T08:04:23Z H4ns: Poenikatu: so how do you think that the (car x) in your setf would refer to a symbol?
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2014-05-09T08:04:43Z Bike: H4ns: before the setf (car x) is the symbol a
2014-05-09T08:04:47Z H4ns: Poenikatu: it specifies a place.  the place where the symbol 'a is stored.
2014-05-09T08:04:55Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Because, in the (let* form, x is set to a list of ('a 'b 'c)
2014-05-09T08:05:25Z Cymew: Poenikatu: as long as you ignore setq and just focus on how setf is a generic setter, you should have the key point for all of this.
2014-05-09T08:05:43Z Poenikatu: Cymew: I must admit that I do not use setq.
2014-05-09T08:05:54Z Cymew: then don't think abou tit
2014-05-09T08:05:55Z H4ns: Poenikatu: rightfully so.  ignore setq.
2014-05-09T08:06:16Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: THE in this case refers to a type of (car x), not to a type of the value stored in it.
2014-05-09T08:06:19Z H4ns: Poenikatu: but you do need to understand places.  type assertions come after that.
2014-05-09T08:06:41Z Poenikatu: hitecnologys: Yes, I agree, but (car x) is 'a
2014-05-09T08:06:41Z Cymew: exactly
2014-05-09T08:06:42Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: do you know any other languages besides CL?
2014-05-09T08:07:18Z Poenikatu: hitecnologys: About a dozen
2014-05-09T08:07:20Z H4ns: Poenikatu: (car x) is 'a, but in (setf (car x) ...), (car x) is not 'a, but the place where 'a happens to be stored.
2014-05-09T08:07:45Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Aha! That's very helpful
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2014-05-09T08:08:36Z Poenikatu: hitecnologys: Have you every heard of Nicol and Simon?
2014-05-09T08:08:51Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: Nicol and Simon? Nope.
2014-05-09T08:09:23Z Poenikatu: hitecnologys: They were used on the old ICL 1900 series computers (mainframes). I learned them in 1970
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2014-05-09T08:10:06Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: if we take C, then int* x = [&a, &b, &c]; x[0] = 5;
2014-05-09T08:10:12Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: I see.
2014-05-09T08:10:13Z Poenikatu: Simon was simulation language which was preprocessed into Algol 60
2014-05-09T08:10:59Z hitecnologys: That's a bit off-topic, I was actually asking in order to try to translate the example into a language with strict static typing.
2014-05-09T08:11:06Z Poenikatu: hitecnologys: Yes, Ok. I now understand that the (the form refers to the eventual value to be stored in (car x)
2014-05-09T08:11:16Z H4ns: Poenikatu: wrong
2014-05-09T08:11:23Z H4ns: Poenikatu: the "the" just asserts the type.
2014-05-09T08:11:24Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: it refers to a *place*.
2014-05-09T08:12:05Z H4ns: Poenikatu: in the expression that you've pasted, the type assertion actually refers to the expected type of the value deposited rather than the value addressed by the place. :)
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2014-05-09T08:12:27Z H4ns: Poenikatu: but the two things, places and type assertions, are really totally separate.
2014-05-09T08:12:36Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Yes, that I now understand
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2014-05-09T08:13:50Z Poenikatu: The point is, folks, upto now, I have been concentrating in getting my code to work correctly. Now that I have, more or less, succeeded in that, I am now considering efficiency
2014-05-09T08:13:59Z H4ns: Poenikatu: type assertions are only useful if you're optimizing, and you'll have to be able to read the assembly output of the compiled functions to put them to good use.
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2014-05-09T08:14:30Z H4ns: Poenikatu: so what you need to do is disassemble the function, look for runtime type checks, then assert types so that the compiler does not generate the type checks.
2014-05-09T08:14:49Z Poenikatu: H4ns: For the moment, I'm willing to accept that the compiler is optimizing, without me having to read assembler (which I have used in the past)
2014-05-09T08:14:57Z H4ns: Poenikatu: it is not useful to assert types blindly.  in the best case, they won't do anything, in the worst case, they break your program.
2014-05-09T08:15:13Z H4ns: Poenikatu: ok, so if that is what you want to do, you do not want to use type assertions at all.
2014-05-09T08:16:11Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Do *you* look at the assembler generated?
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2014-05-09T08:16:26Z H4ns: Poenikatu: if i need to, i do.
2014-05-09T08:16:33Z H4ns: Poenikatu: but it is very rare.
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2014-05-09T08:16:44Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Why so?
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2014-05-09T08:17:07Z H4ns: Poenikatu: my programs are fast enough without type assertions
2014-05-09T08:17:31Z H4ns: Poenikatu: basically, my cl code runs circles around the ruby scripts that the other folks in my company write :)
2014-05-09T08:17:34Z Poenikatu: H4ns: How do you ensure that they are "fast enough" without type assertions?
2014-05-09T08:17:56Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Of  course, isn't ruby an interpreted language?
2014-05-09T08:17:59Z H4ns: Poenikatu: my compiler (sbcl) is clever enough and the run time type checks are not that costly.
2014-05-09T08:18:31Z Poenikatu: H4ns: I accept that sbcl has a good compiler.
2014-05-09T08:18:42Z H4ns: Poenikatu: just in time compilation blurred the distinction between interpreted and compiled, but cl is much easier to optimize than ruby because ruby is _very_ dynamic.
2014-05-09T08:19:26Z Poenikatu: H4ns: I confess to knowing little about Ruby. It was invented in Japan, I know, and is supposed to be very oo
2014-05-09T08:19:28Z H4ns: Poenikatu: i worked on allegrograph's core once and there we really needed to squeeze out every bit of performance that we could get.  that was when i used type assertions and looked at assembly output to see the effects.
2014-05-09T08:19:45Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Yes, I understand
2014-05-09T08:20:17Z Poenikatu: You guys are so fortunate that in your professional lives, you are using CL. I envy you
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2014-05-09T08:21:02Z Poenikatu: Have sympathy for an old COBOL hacker!
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2014-05-09T08:21:58Z Poenikatu leaves to get to grips with types in CL and types in the FLI of LispWorks
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2014-05-09T08:37:40Z Cymew: ruby is a decent lisp, actually
2014-05-09T08:38:01Z dim: Cymew: yeah? they do have handler-bind and the compiler at run-time?
2014-05-09T08:38:09Z dim: I think that's my two favorites things in CL
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2014-05-09T08:38:12Z dim: CLOS, too
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2014-05-09T08:38:58Z jdz: i claim ruby is an undecent lisp
2014-05-09T08:39:00Z H4ns: ruby's syntax puts it far away from lisp.  it is no more a lisp than any other modern dynamic language with lambda and eval.
2014-05-09T08:39:24Z Cymew: I mostly write ruby like I do in lisp, that is, I write the expressions that make sense to me, and they exist. I mean "100.times do" and similar things feels just as "English" as lisp does do me. ;)
2014-05-09T08:39:24Z jdz: ruby's dynamicity will bite you more than it will help you
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2014-05-09T08:40:04Z H4ns: Cymew: that does not make it a "decent lisp".  it may be a decent programming language for you, leaving up questions about taste :)
2014-05-09T08:40:26Z Cymew: I concede that point. :)
2014-05-09T08:41:00Z Cymew: Isn't "decent programming language" the same as "decent lisp"
2014-05-09T08:41:08Z Cymew is only half serious
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2014-05-09T08:50:18Z Shinmera: The word "lisp" in itself is practically meaningless and by extension so is "decent lisp".
2014-05-09T08:50:58Z H4ns: Shinmera: in this channel, it means "common lisp" :)
2014-05-09T08:52:06Z Shinmera: H4ns: And I'm glad it does most of the time!
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2014-05-09T09:30:06Z p_l is more and more impressed that AGraph should be on top of list of "impressive big projects in Lisp"
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2014-05-09T09:30:47Z p_l: even if it makes it annoying to setup tests
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2014-05-09T09:33:42Z jdz: p_l: s/impressed/convinced ?
2014-05-09T09:33:52Z p_l: jdz: both?
2014-05-09T09:34:04Z p_l: AGraph is helluva impressive
2014-05-09T09:34:42Z jdz: and helluva expensive?
2014-05-09T09:34:51Z p_l: not only they claim biggest single-server store, they have no materialization stage, which I *love*
2014-05-09T09:34:56Z jdz: i know, it's orthogonal, but i have no data points on that front
2014-05-09T09:35:03Z p_l: jdz: pretty sure Oracle beats them in pricing
2014-05-09T09:35:14Z p_l: in pricing themselves at the top, that is
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2014-05-09T09:36:01Z p_l: and out of two database servers that deserve special note in my thesis, there's AGraph and Oracle (and not base license of Oracle, nope)
2014-05-09T09:37:06Z jdz: i did some playing around at some point, and i was also very impressed by Virtuoso (i think that's the one i tried)
2014-05-09T09:37:21Z p_l: Virtuoso pretty much misses the featureset I work on
2014-05-09T09:37:42Z p_l: (security in semantic database)
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2014-05-09T09:38:58Z p_l: Oracle and AGraph got rudimentary triple-level-security as they call it, and Oracle got some model-based controls
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2014-05-09T09:40:32Z p_l: Virtuoso got "we can restrict per named graph, name and label it yourself"
2014-05-09T09:42:27Z p_l: something that I hark heavily on, because, imagine sorting through big database so you can tag individual IRIs into named graphs
2014-05-09T09:42:47Z p_l: especially if there has to be multilateral security etc.
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2014-05-09T09:59:43Z leo2007: what the most convenient way to communicate some values (from CL) to other apps (might be in different language)?
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2014-05-09T10:00:37Z H4ns: leo2007: "most convenient" would be "write to files".  also the most error prone and unscaleable
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2014-05-09T10:01:06Z splittist: zeromq?
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2014-05-09T10:09:28Z leo2007: any good zmq clients for cl?
2014-05-09T10:11:30Z jdz: leo2007: isn't there one listed on their page?
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2014-05-09T10:37:28Z H4ns: the "official" one was crap when i looked at it years ago
2014-05-09T10:37:49Z H4ns: there are several forks that may be better, and unrelated ones as well
2014-05-09T10:38:09Z splittist: lisp-zmq has amusing docs
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2014-05-09T10:38:23Z jdz: Andrew Lawson of Ravenpack gave a lightning talk about their happy experiences of using 0MQ
2014-05-09T10:39:24Z jdz: so there must be at least one that is working as expected
2014-05-09T10:39:37Z brucem: if you end up having to do your own bindings, nanomsg is from one of the original authors of zmq and much easier to bind and work with (it is pure C).
2014-05-09T10:40:22Z H4ns: all that hardly qualifies as "most convenient"
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2014-05-09T10:43:16Z splittist: to be fair, we haven't been given much context. 'some values' might be two positive integers less than 10 or gigabytes of multi-inheritance objects.
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2014-05-09T10:43:55Z H4ns: granted :)
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2014-05-09T11:32:30Z hitecnologys thinks he should do complete analysis of current state of all the projects in Quicklisp one day
2014-05-09T11:33:06Z hitecnologys: And automating this thing would be a good idea too.
2014-05-09T11:34:21Z jdz: what kind of analysis?
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2014-05-09T11:37:17Z hitecnologys: Jusi general overview of how many projects were abondoned, outdated now, replaced by other projects; how many authors don't maintain anything anymore, how may projects are maintained by a single person/group of people; what ASDF features do developers make use of; dependencies graph for all QL projects; etc.
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2014-05-09T11:38:42Z hitecnologys: s/Jusi/Just/
2014-05-09T11:41:00Z jdz: parts of that can definitely be automated
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2014-05-09T11:42:00Z hitecnologys: Aha.
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2014-05-09T11:42:40Z hitecnologys: Will probably do this on summer holidays.
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2014-05-09T11:51:41Z pjb: minion: memo for quazimodo: man ascii # notice how conveniently the codes #o100+ are listed in parallel to the codes #o000
2014-05-09T11:51:41Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell quazimodo when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-05-09T12:19:53Z pjb: minion: memo for Poenikatu: the THE operators means: The Human Error.  It's a recursive acronym, as hackers like them.
2014-05-09T12:19:53Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Poenikatu when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-05-09T12:21:10Z pjb: minion: memo for Poenikatu: When you use the THE operators, it's THE fault of the Human (you) if^W when anything goes wrong.
2014-05-09T12:21:10Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Poenikatu when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-05-09T12:21:56Z H4ns: pjb: protip:  you can use /msg to instruct minion
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2014-05-09T12:22:10Z H4ns: pjb: in this case, it would spare us from having to read that crap two times.
2014-05-09T12:23:44Z pjb: H4ns: I want also teach other people to give the good answers :-)
2014-05-09T12:24:01Z pjb: and teaching is based on repeatition.
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2014-05-09T12:57:35Z lukego: Random thought. I wonder how you could do SLIME all over again in a much simpler way? would it be interesting to use Markdown as the basic format for stuff to show the user (repl results, backtraces, etc) with e.g. “Object [foo](presentation:12345)” for metadata to do presentations, function names, etc in linkable ways.
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2014-05-09T12:58:34Z lukego: I wonder if a unix shell could even potentially be a frontend instead of Emacs. not sure how you would render stuff like hyperlinks. (perhaps with some fancy terminal app...)
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2014-05-09T12:59:12Z lukego: (maybe what I’m thinking of is less like SLIME and more like a CLIM reader.)
2014-05-09T12:59:24Z oleo: morning
2014-05-09T12:59:29Z oleo: someone said clim ?
2014-05-09T12:59:32Z oleo: geez
2014-05-09T12:59:34Z oleo: :)
2014-05-09T13:00:55Z jdz: lukego: it think stuff like that is whay clojurians have come up with (and moved to) nrepl
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2014-05-09T13:02:28Z lukego: jdz: did they (or others) ever crack the problem of making things work well with different languages?
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2014-05-09T13:03:11Z jdz: lukego: not sure that was part of their design criteria.
2014-05-09T13:03:37Z jdz: lukego: i don't know much about nrepl and clojure anyway, just had a talk with a clojurian in ELS2014
2014-05-09T13:03:45Z splittist: lukego: what are 'things'
2014-05-09T13:04:01Z lukego: did anybody try taking that design route? like: low but clean common denominator for supporting several languages?
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2014-05-09T13:04:53Z lukego: splittist: good question. some subset of: find definition, lookup args, lookup documentation, inspector, debugger.
2014-05-09T13:04:54Z jdz: nrepl supposedly has support for "plugins" (or wrappers)
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2014-05-09T13:08:49Z p_l: jdz: "middleware"
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2014-05-09T13:09:19Z p_l: lukego: markdown would be hilarious bad format
2014-05-09T13:09:44Z p_l: lukego: SLIME, n.b., already uses CLIM-style approach, with presentations
2014-05-09T13:10:16Z lukego: markdown thought was to be more frontend-agnostic. (half baked, I realize.)
2014-05-09T13:10:27Z p_l: lukego: more like very, very, very frontend-specific
2014-05-09T13:10:38Z splittist: json, then (:
2014-05-09T13:10:40Z p_l: complete opposite of what you intended
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2014-05-09T13:10:51Z p_l: splittist: or keep S-expressions
2014-05-09T13:10:55Z lukego: and to be able to write UI code like (format t “That is a **really** bad idea.”) and get some rendering.
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2014-05-09T13:12:20Z splittist: lukego: it's not clear to me what you are trying to tie together. Vim and Clang as well as sbcl and emacs?
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2014-05-09T13:12:42Z lukego: splittist: roughly, yep
2014-05-09T13:12:45Z p_l: lukego: (:form (:call "format") (:arg t :type :bool) (:arg "This is a **really** bad idea." :type :string))
2014-05-09T13:13:28Z splittist: p_l: I think lukego wants the display to show the 'really' in bold, blinking, red or something.
2014-05-09T13:13:33Z p_l: the rendering of **really** bad unfortunately depends on text substitution *or* adding ZetaLisp-like reader extensions, unfortunately, otherwise you're possibly infecting code
2014-05-09T13:14:06Z p_l: splittist: Yes, but that's a possible mangling of code I'd like to avoid unless the language directly supports it (like Genera languages did)
2014-05-09T13:14:34Z p_l: those, however, depended on specific rules that covered reading and writing such formats in ways that did not break programs
2014-05-09T13:14:39Z p_l: most languages do not have such rules
2014-05-09T13:15:16Z p_l: at least so long as you use text storage for source, that is. Storing code as objects can render it easy.
2014-05-09T13:15:17Z splittist: p_l: Understandable. Perhaps utilise the unused parts of unicode to provide markup :P
2014-05-09T13:15:39Z p_l: splittist: bad idea. You never know if the program didn't intend to use those parts
2014-05-09T13:15:49Z Shinmera: Is there a way to make something only be compiled / read when the debug level is on three? Or more generally, is there a way to get the current debug / speed / whatnot optimisation setting?
2014-05-09T13:16:19Z p_l: splittist: you need a clear-cut method of integrating that kind of markup with code in a way that the compiler won't barf on
2014-05-09T13:17:53Z splittist: p_l: I wasn't actually thinking of marking up up source. That strikes me as something that should be controlled by the poor schlub trying to read the code, not the careless yahoo writing it. (Even if they are the same person.)
2014-05-09T13:18:18Z splittist: p_l: I know they abused fonts that way in the Symbolics era etc.
2014-05-09T13:18:41Z p_l: splittist: the readers/parsers understood the markup thus making it viable
2014-05-09T13:19:25Z splittist: Yes, and these were the folks that allowed you to specify Roman as print- and read-base.
2014-05-09T13:19:40Z CrazyWoods: Which are the common practise when deal with large project with mix programming language, how they communicate with each modules, by socket/function invoke or http like protocol?
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2014-05-09T13:21:51Z p_l: CrazyWoods: depends on the design
2014-05-09T13:22:17Z p_l: commonly abused is HTTP
2014-05-09T13:22:20Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: http is pretty popular nowadays and much preferable to "http like" or homegrown.
2014-05-09T13:22:21Z p_l: even when it doesn't fit
2014-05-09T13:22:30Z H4ns: lukego: o/
2014-05-09T13:22:35Z p_l: message queues can be very good idea
2014-05-09T13:22:37Z lukego: H4ns: howdy :)
2014-05-09T13:22:41Z p_l: sometimes, more specific IPC
2014-05-09T13:23:15Z p_l: CrazyWoods: also, I really, really suggest avoiding RPC pattern, especially if for whatever reason you decide to make the thing distributed
2014-05-09T13:23:25Z lukego: CrazyEddy: Call me retro but I am having program A spitting out text files for program B to read, and trying to keep the communication unidirectional (acyclic directed graph i.e. nothing “talking back” and potentially creating a mixup)
2014-05-09T13:24:03Z Xach: crazy like a fox
2014-05-09T13:24:59Z Krystof: lukego: what are you doing on this channel, heretic?
2014-05-09T13:25:20Z Krystof: I spoke to someone at ELS about you.  He said, "Luke Gorrie.  Hmm, wasn't he some kind of lisp guy?"
2014-05-09T13:25:35Z lukego: Krystof: I have a really hard deadline at the moment, so of course I had to come on IRC...
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2014-05-09T13:25:54Z p_l: lukego: o/
2014-05-09T13:26:02Z lukego: :-) p_l
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2014-05-09T13:27:18Z lukego: CrazyEddy: I’m doing a social experiment at the moment. Contributing code to OpenStack where the culture is MySQL + MiddlewareCode + RabbitMQ. I did my extension as CSV + git + PostprocessingCode.
2014-05-09T13:28:03Z lukego: idea being it’s hard to write race conditions etc when the workflow is “master checks in a file to git; all slaves do a regular ‘git pull'"
2014-05-09T13:28:32Z lukego: also makes it relatively hard to write bugs where e.g. reboot of master or slave will hurt somebody else (missed messages, etc)
2014-05-09T13:28:55Z lukego: Krystof: ELS was fun?
2014-05-09T13:29:00Z p_l: depends how what the slaves do, I think
2014-05-09T13:29:33Z p_l technically doesn't yet properly know the language he is supposed to submit his project in
2014-05-09T13:30:16Z p_l: afk, going to ask for medical cause deadline extension (I actually have real reasons for that one, so it's not just sick note fraud :))
2014-05-09T13:30:48Z CrazyWoods: p_l: What's RPC?
2014-05-09T13:30:57Z lukego: CrazyEddy: btw your question is currently a multibillion dollar industry called “software defined networking” that is basically arguing about how to configure networks of ethernet switches.
2014-05-09T13:31:09Z oleo: remote procedure call
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2014-05-09T13:31:16Z CrazyWoods: ok
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2014-05-09T13:31:42Z CrazyWoods: then what are the glue language aim at?
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2014-05-09T14:28:03Z memento: Hello, i want to use the relative path of a file, to use it for the function (with-open-file) but i can only use the absolut. Any help?
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2014-05-09T14:28:55Z oGMo: memento: see *default-pathname-defaults*
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2014-05-09T14:36:27Z jdz: memento: also, enough-namestring
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2014-05-09T15:11:12Z memento: Is there a way to pass an array as a function argument with all its elements?
2014-05-09T15:11:40Z Xach: memento: that is what usually happens.
2014-05-09T15:11:56Z stassats: what prompted that question?
2014-05-09T15:12:02Z memento: I get error
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2014-05-09T15:13:26Z memento: i have an array a, and i just want to print it. http://ideone.com/s54zLR
2014-05-09T15:13:54Z pjb: Main.java:1: error: class, interface, or enum expected / (defun check (the array here)
2014-05-09T15:13:54Z pjb:  
2014-05-09T15:13:57Z pjb: erm…
2014-05-09T15:14:03Z pjb: memento: perhaps you want to as on #java ?
2014-05-09T15:14:06Z pjb: ask
2014-05-09T15:14:43Z Xach: memento: (defun check (a) (print a)) is one way to fix.
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2014-05-09T15:15:14Z pjb: First putting it in a .lisp file and compiling it with a lisp compiler instead of a java compiler.
2014-05-09T15:15:44Z Xach: I think that is an artifact of the paste site.
2014-05-09T15:15:53Z Xach: Better to use paste.lisp.org usually.
2014-05-09T15:18:11Z stassats: which doesn't have a java compiler, or any compiler
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2014-05-09T15:21:28Z memento: Guys, i just used a paste platform, i didnt know about paste.lisp
2014-05-09T15:22:05Z stassats: memento: can you print an integer?
2014-05-09T15:22:27Z memento: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142464
2014-05-09T15:22:34Z memento: yes i can print an integer
2014-05-09T15:22:46Z stassats: so, it's the same with arrays
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2014-05-09T15:23:47Z memento: http://prntscr.com/3hmudn
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2014-05-09T15:24:13Z stassats: you are mightily confused
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2014-05-09T15:24:49Z stassats: and the error message is pretty clear
2014-05-09T15:25:35Z memento: excuse me
2014-05-09T15:26:26Z memento: excuse me, thats what i wanted to show http://prntscr.com/3hmv2z
2014-05-09T15:26:37Z mrSpec: Hello guys! Has anyone else  got issue with new slime (from quicklisp)? Mine seems to remove spaces from command history, so when I use M-p, I have commands without all spaces!
2014-05-09T15:26:46Z stassats: memento: why did you wrap A in parenthesis?
2014-05-09T15:26:55Z stassats: memento: what are you using to learn lisp?
2014-05-09T15:27:07Z stassats: mrSpec: your slime is too old
2014-05-09T15:27:40Z mrSpec: stassats: should I use slime from github?
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2014-05-09T15:27:58Z stassats: if that's what you have to do to stop using the old one
2014-05-09T15:28:05Z memento: stassats, that was my mistake, parenthesis was unnecessary thanks a lo
2014-05-09T15:28:06Z memento: stassats, that was my mistake, parenthesis was unnecessary thanks a lot
2014-05-09T15:28:35Z mrSpec: stassats: oki, thx ;)
2014-05-09T15:28:40Z jdz: is it the season of homework hand-in?
2014-05-09T15:28:53Z memento: indeed it is
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2014-05-09T16:01:31Z jimbow: i have this awesome clipboard utility for the command shell
2014-05-09T16:01:55Z jimbow: it's an idea*
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2014-05-09T17:06:01Z jasom: maybe we should create a channel named "lisp-homework" to keep this channel from being polluted...
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2014-05-09T17:08:10Z jasom: CrazyWoods: ZMQ tries to solve a lot of the language-independent communication patterns; combine it with a serialization format and you have all you need for IPC for about 90% of problems, and it's arguably easier to build whatever else you need on top of it for the other 10% (most commonly you'll need some sort of broker, as the "zero" in ZMQ is "zero brokers")
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2014-05-09T17:09:51Z jasom: CrazyWoods: I'm maintainer for a small webserver that uses zmq to communicate with any number of programming languages that can dynamically generate webpages
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2014-05-09T17:15:21Z Fare: someone at ELS 2014 described how happy they were using ZeroMQ from CL.
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2014-05-09T17:16:51Z jdz: Fare: Andrew Lawson, from Ravenpack
2014-05-09T17:16:58Z jdz: Fare: i already mentioned that :)
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2014-05-09T17:17:44Z pjb: jasom: yes, #lisp-homework is a good idea.
2014-05-09T17:20:13Z Fare: jdz: I need an irc client that automatically inserts logs from the web...
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2014-05-09T17:34:01Z Viaken: jasom: That sounds like an interesting project.
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2014-05-09T17:49:26Z _death: jasom: when I read that description I thought "didn't zed shaw write something like this?".. then I remembered I saw your nick @ its github repo page
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2014-05-09T18:20:39Z Fare: any op to put in the topic that ASDF 3.1.2 is out?
2014-05-09T18:20:56Z stassats: no op needed?
2014-05-09T18:21:09Z Fare changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://paste.lisp.org/new>. |Contact op if you can't speak| New: asdf 3.1.2, drakma 1.3.9, cl-launch 4.0.4, cl-ppcre 2.0.7, hunchentoot  1.2.26, flexi-streams 1.0.10
2014-05-09T18:21:12Z Fare: wow.
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2014-05-09T18:23:50Z Fare changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://paste.lisp.org/new>. |Contact op if you can't speak| New: asdf 3.1.2, cl-launch 4.0.4, cl-ppcre 2.0.7, drakma 1.3.9, hunchentoot 1.2.26, flexi-streams 1.0.11
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2014-05-09T18:25:12Z stassats: it became 1.0.11?
2014-05-09T18:25:26Z Fare: that's what its .asd file says
2014-05-09T18:25:33Z stassats: the current version is 1.0.12, in actually, but it has been a long time, so it's better to drop it
2014-05-09T18:26:00Z Fare: oh. The .asd file still says 1.0.11. Sigh.
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2014-05-09T18:26:29Z Fare had to tweak the cl-launch release script to make sure such discrepancies wouldn't happen on released versions
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2014-05-09T18:26:44Z Fare changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://paste.lisp.org/new>. |Contact op if you can't speak| New: asdf 3.1.2, cl-launch 4.0.4
2014-05-09T18:26:56Z Fare: (anymore)
2014-05-09T18:27:30Z Fare: How long haven't I raved about how much nicer it is to write scripts in CL rather than in /bin/sh ?
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2014-05-09T18:28:54Z stassats: well, if i change it to 1.0.12 in .asd, it won't be picked up until the release, so it needs to be changed to 1.0.13 and a new release made
2014-05-09T18:29:09Z stassats: and H4ns is the one for making releases
2014-05-09T18:30:19Z Fare: I did have an "interesting" bug in the cl-launch release script: (argv0) returned "./release.lisp" which I then merged with (getcwd), which yielded "/home/tunes/cl/cl-launch/./release.lisp", the directory of which was "/home/tunes/cl/cl-launch/./" which when you went :back one directory level was "/home/tunes/cl/cl-launch/" ... OOPS
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2014-05-09T18:30:34Z Fare: my "solution" was to use truename after I merge...
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2014-05-09T18:31:37Z Fare: Yeah, cl-launch 4.0.3 thought it was 4.0.2.3, which was embarrassing, so I released 4.0.4 with otherwise very small changes, but a much improved release script that checks versions.
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2014-05-09T18:32:36Z Fare: gendl, thanks a lot for the asdf testing on Windows!
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2014-05-09T18:52:51Z jdz: Fare: i don't see cl-launch in homebrew; should i add it?
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2014-05-09T18:53:04Z jdz: (have not done it before, but should be trivial)
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2014-05-09T18:54:16Z Fare: jdz: by all means, please add cl-launch to homebrew
2014-05-09T18:54:30Z Fare: and if possible symlink it to /usr/bin/cl
2014-05-09T18:54:47Z Fare: a minimal install is pretty easy
2014-05-09T18:54:47Z jdz: yeah, i'm just wondering how that could be done
2014-05-09T18:55:08Z Fare: I'm wondering what the default options should be... you decide
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2014-05-09T18:56:11Z Fare: (see cl -V for what these options could be)
2014-05-09T18:56:31Z nicdev: Fare: I just tried a pull from git://common-lisp.net/projects/xcvb/cl-launch.git and it says 'Already up-to-date' even though I have version 4.0.2.3. are the latest changes somewhere else?
2014-05-09T18:57:18Z Fare: oops, had forgotten to push after I published the tarball
2014-05-09T18:57:19Z Fare: done.
2014-05-09T18:57:57Z Fare: (I don't push *before* because until I get the debian release just right, I need to commit --amend and commit tag -f ...)
2014-05-09T18:58:02Z Fare: nicdev: thanks
2014-05-09T18:58:24Z Fare: differences from 4.0.2.3 / 4.0.3 are quite small.
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2014-05-09T19:10:31Z nicdev: Fare: that push policy makes sense.
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2014-05-09T19:13:42Z Fare: nicdev: forgetting to push is still a bug — thanks for finding it
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2014-05-09T19:56:25Z moore: +++++
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2014-05-09T20:10:20Z nydel: g'day
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2014-05-09T21:04:43Z daGrevis_: hi! im learning lisp by creating lisp myself. how do you call function body in lisp? i'm implementing lambda in my language and i'm thinking about how to call it. 1st arg is args as in function args. second one?
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2014-05-09T21:07:04Z stassats: should be there a second one?
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2014-05-09T21:09:50Z daGrevis_: stassats, function body
2014-05-09T21:10:09Z daGrevis_: (lambda (arg1 arg2) (fn-body))
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2014-05-09T21:10:27Z stassats: LAMBDA is not a function
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2014-05-09T21:11:40Z daGrevis_: hmm, interesting
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2014-05-09T21:11:46Z daGrevis_: can you explain me how do they differ?
2014-05-09T21:11:59Z stassats: there are special operators
2014-05-09T21:12:09Z rszeno: daGrevis_, http://www.civilized.com/files/lispbook.pdf
2014-05-09T21:12:11Z stassats: lambda is one of them, along with PROGN
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2014-05-09T21:12:19Z oGMo: it may be helpful if you _use_ a lisp before hopping into writing one heh
2014-05-09T21:12:27Z |3b|: just a macro actually, FUNCTION is the special operator
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2014-05-09T21:12:35Z daGrevis_: i have used cojure sorry if it's not lisp enough :]
2014-05-09T21:12:44Z stassats: |3b|: i'm sure daGrevis_ cares about that
2014-05-09T21:13:00Z oGMo: surely clojure has macros
2014-05-09T21:13:04Z |3b|: well, it matters if implementing something that looks like CL :)
2014-05-09T21:13:27Z |3b|: though at this point it sounds like not CL, so probably doesn't care
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2014-05-09T21:14:11Z stassats: |3b|: any macro can be implemented as a special operator
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2014-05-09T21:14:38Z |3b|: daGrevis_: are you just asking about variable names as opposed to actual implementation/how stuff works?
2014-05-09T21:15:03Z daGrevis_: |3b|, there's this https://github.com/daGrevis/diy-lisp
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2014-05-09T21:15:30Z daGrevis_: |3b|, i was just implementing lambda and wanted to know how you guys name 2nd arg of lambda
2014-05-09T21:15:54Z daGrevis_: because as far as I understand, the thing I'm creating is something that's similar to Lisp-1
2014-05-09T21:15:55Z |3b|: 'body' is the usual name in CL
2014-05-09T21:16:03Z daGrevis_: thanks
2014-05-09T21:16:22Z daGrevis_: but I can't say function body, right?
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2014-05-09T21:16:28Z daGrevis_: because lambda is not a function
2014-05-09T21:16:46Z daGrevis_: stassats seemed pretty upset :(
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2014-05-09T21:17:16Z |3b|: right, it has to be either a macro or special operator, since the arguments are not evaluated
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2014-05-09T21:17:51Z daGrevis_: i'm aware i can't implement lambda as normal function
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2014-05-09T21:18:04Z oGMo: but body is the body of the function produced
2014-05-09T21:18:09Z daGrevis_: yes thanks
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2014-05-09T21:18:15Z daGrevis_: we did misunderstand each other
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2014-05-09T21:19:01Z |3b|: also, this channel is about CL, which is a lisp-2 (or lisp-n depending on how you interpret it)
2014-05-09T21:19:04Z daGrevis_: i was not asking if lambda is a function. i was asking if 2nd argument of lambda can be called function-body in my-toy-little-lisp **evaluator** because lambda is creating a function
2014-05-09T21:19:18Z |3b|: you can call it anything you want
2014-05-09T21:19:54Z daGrevis_: mkay, thanks for your time
2014-05-09T21:19:58Z |3b| doesn't know of any lisps where argument names affect anything aside from readability
2014-05-09T21:20:20Z daGrevis_: true. but you know, readability counts
2014-05-09T21:20:27Z daGrevis_: at least for me; dunno about you
2014-05-09T21:20:54Z |3b| would call it 'body', don't know that i would be confused by 'function-body' though
2014-05-09T21:21:29Z |3b| wouldn't call it 'fn-body' though, CL style is to spell out whole words, and i like that style :)
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2014-05-09T21:25:09Z daGrevis_: y i like that style too even if i'm not lisper yet
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2014-05-09T21:32:16Z Shinmera: Hooray, another project of mine submitted to Quicklisp.
2014-05-09T21:32:41Z oGMo: Shinmera: which one?
2014-05-09T21:32:48Z Shinmera: oGMo: http://shinmera.github.io/CLSS/
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2014-05-09T21:33:01Z Shinmera: Also apparently QL breached the 1000 projects mark, which is pretty nice
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2014-05-09T21:33:33Z oGMo: i'm surprised it's only 1000 actually
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2014-05-09T21:34:10Z Shinmera: I'm guessing there's a lot of "dark" projects that people don't publicise or don't dare to submit.
2014-05-09T21:34:49Z oGMo: well sure but i mostly mean i can typically quickload something for just about anything
2014-05-09T21:35:06Z oGMo: relatively high s/n or something
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2014-05-09T21:35:26Z Fare: antonv```, thanks a lot once again for cl-test-grid
2014-05-09T21:35:55Z Fare: the success of asdf3 would not have been possible without it
2014-05-09T21:36:01Z Shinmera: oGMo: True that. Most of the things I've been doing so far have been reinventing the wheel as I wasn't quite satisfied in the way things were done in another library.
2014-05-09T21:36:34Z oGMo: Shinmera: same
2014-05-09T21:36:39Z oGMo: well
2014-05-09T21:36:42Z Fare: Shinmera, mind Olin Shivers' advice about library-writing.
2014-05-09T21:36:45Z oGMo: for anything i've reinvented
2014-05-09T21:36:56Z Fare: and my own Library Consolidation advice.
2014-05-09T21:37:04Z Shinmera: Fare: I don't think I've read that before
2014-05-09T21:37:26Z Fare: see the README of his scheme regex library
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2014-05-09T21:37:45Z Fare: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/papers/sre.txt
2014-05-09T21:37:55Z Shinmera: Ah, thank you
2014-05-09T21:38:06Z Fare: http://fare.livejournal.com/169346.html
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2014-05-09T21:40:09Z Shinmera: I can definitely agree with the 80% sentiment. I try to build my libraries as their isolated thing and work on them until I consider them "whole" to try to avoid only doing what interests me personally.
2014-05-09T21:40:37Z Shinmera: Of course, I'm always afraid (and most likely correctly so) that I still won't cover everything I should.
2014-05-09T21:41:34Z oGMo: eh .. i'm not sure anyone ever will, but if you use it considerably you'll expand it pretty far
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2014-05-09T21:42:01Z oGMo: i don't really agree with the 100% thing because even if you sit down and say "i'm going to write this 100% right now" you're not going to, just because you don't know enough
2014-05-09T21:42:32Z oGMo: but write it, use it a lot, and it'll get close to 100% of what everyone needs
2014-05-09T21:42:44Z Shinmera: Well you're never going to reach 100%. I'm more agreeing with the mindset of writing the library reaching for the 100% than writing it just to get to the point where you can use it for whatever major goal you had.
2014-05-09T21:42:47Z oGMo: which is still probably ~85%, but
2014-05-09T21:42:59Z oGMo: Shinmera: certainly
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2014-05-09T21:47:08Z Fare: 100% is a mindset. It doesn't mean "wait until you're at 100% to publish" but "never be satisfied until bugs are fixed, the architecture allows for the desired future features, etc."
2014-05-09T21:47:31Z oGMo: with that i agree completely
2014-05-09T21:48:13Z Fare: it means that as a maintainer you'll keep up with whatever joneses provide alternate libraries for the same domain.
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2014-05-09T21:48:22Z Shinmera: Fare: I'm not quite sure I agree with "one library per problem domain". Doing things differently for the same domain can add value and cannot always be combined into one. Of course, merging should be done where possible.
2014-05-09T21:48:37Z Fare: Shinmera, I discuss that in the details.
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2014-05-09T21:49:05Z Fare: and yes, sometimes you realize that "the" domain is actually two subdomains.
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2014-05-09T21:50:37Z Shinmera: Fare: I didn't quite read that out of the details, but alright.
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2014-05-09T21:51:53Z jebes: movitz is a completely dead project now, isn't it?
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2014-05-09T21:52:07Z Fare: jebes: is free software ever "completely dead"?
2014-05-09T21:52:14Z Xach: jebes: not quite dead. you can still get it.
2014-05-09T21:52:20Z Fare: like Cthulhu, it could raise from the dead, if only someone forked it
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2014-05-09T21:52:42Z jebes: I have it forked and am going to start hacking on it, but it will end up quite mutalated...
2014-05-09T21:53:00Z Fare: but yes, the Haskell or OCaml variants on the same idea have had more success.
2014-05-09T21:53:09Z nyef: SBCL-os is far less likely to get resurrected than Movitz is, I think. (-:
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2014-05-09T21:54:04Z Xach: jebes: i don't think the original author is likely to add things to it any time soon. if you want to share your work with the world, it should be with a new name.
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2014-05-09T21:58:11Z Fare: You could rename your fork movic or moviţ or movič
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2014-05-09T21:58:33Z Xach: or JebOS
2014-05-09T21:59:10Z jebes: I have my own pet OS that isn't going anywhere, might as well name this project after that
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2014-05-09T22:12:28Z pjb: daGrevis_: (defmacro lambda (boobs &body claudia-shiffer) …)
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2014-05-09T22:13:04Z pjb: seriously, (defmacro lambda (lambda-list &body body) …)
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2014-05-09T22:13:17Z daGrevis_: nah i'm fine with boobs:)
2014-05-09T22:13:39Z rszeno typo &body -> &feet
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2014-05-09T22:56:51Z Xach: pjb: that is unnecessary
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2014-05-09T23:13:12Z pjb: Xach: of course, any joke is unnecessary.
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2014-05-09T23:31:06Z jebes: i just made the most hacky list flattner
2014-05-09T23:31:50Z jebes: (apply #'apply #'apply (lambda (&rest x) x) [list]) flattens a list one level
2014-05-09T23:33:54Z jebes: or two levels
2014-05-09T23:34:41Z nyef: That... seems more than a bit sketchy to me.
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2014-05-09T23:36:44Z nyef: (let (([list] '((1 2 3) 4 5))) (apply #'apply #'apply (lambda (&rest x) x) [list])) => *BOOM*
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2014-05-09T23:37:23Z jebes: yeah, there should only be one apply.
2014-05-09T23:37:25Z nyef: Impressively *BOOM*, actually.
2014-05-09T23:38:42Z nyef: So... (apply #'apply (lambda ...) [list])?
2014-05-09T23:38:50Z jebes: i'm posting it on ide-one
2014-05-09T23:39:07Z nyef: Hrm. Still boom.
2014-05-09T23:39:21Z jebes: on a list without any nested lists, yes.
2014-05-09T23:39:27Z jebes: I said it was hacky ;)
2014-05-09T23:39:41Z nyef: And (1 2 3) is obviously a nested list.
2014-05-09T23:40:10Z jebes:  http://ideone.com/FMF2LJ
2014-05-09T23:41:00Z nyef: And if you do it with '(1 2 3 ((4) 6)), does it still work?
2014-05-09T23:41:24Z jebes: yeah
2014-05-09T23:41:28Z jebes: it does actually.
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2014-05-09T23:42:34Z nyef: Hrm.
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2014-05-09T23:43:35Z nyef: Ah, it's '(1 2 (3 (4)) 6) that fails.
2014-05-09T23:44:59Z jebes: i wonder why.
2014-05-09T23:45:53Z nyef: I have my own questions, but they relate more to how that failure behaves in SBCL.
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2014-05-09T23:53:39Z Zulander1: Hello All
2014-05-09T23:53:44Z jebes: hi
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2014-05-10T00:57:15Z Chosen: hey. do you guys use slime?
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2014-05-10T00:57:42Z Chosen: scharan hi
2014-05-10T00:58:23Z jebes: using it now
2014-05-10T00:58:43Z Chosen: cool. I want to be a real lisper so I installed slime.
2014-05-10T00:58:48Z Chosen: and am learnign lisp
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2014-05-10T00:59:34Z Chosen: so can slime provide autocompletion like Visual Studio?  like pop up and complete the word? Can it integrate with autocomplete emacs extension?
2014-05-10T01:00:25Z Chosen: jebes. are you a real lisper?
2014-05-10T01:00:37Z Chosen: like the hard core kind who understands recursoin and macros?
2014-05-10T01:00:40Z jebes: i have no expeirence with autocomplete (i don't use it) but you can use C-c TAB for slime's builting autocompletion. It doesn't have a pop up but it opens a new frame to display the possible completions
2014-05-10T01:00:50Z jebes: Recursion and macros are pretty easy concepts to understand...
2014-05-10T01:01:01Z jebes: learning how to apply them, not so much
2014-05-10T01:01:28Z Chosen: Damn, you are a real lisper if you think that. You don't know what you have become, since you have become a lisper.
2014-05-10T01:01:40Z Chosen: i only know how to do loops.
2014-05-10T01:01:55Z phadthai: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Programmer
2014-05-10T01:01:55Z DigitalRunes: recursion is much more general a topic than just a lisp thing
2014-05-10T01:02:23Z Chosen: yeah but lispers are like super recursive compared to other people.
2014-05-10T01:02:23Z phadthai: real lisper reminds me of real programmer :)
2014-05-10T01:02:38Z jebes: that what i was thinking too, phadthai
2014-05-10T01:02:54Z phadthai: Chosen: scheme programmers prefer recursion more than common lisp programmers in general, but you can still use it of course
2014-05-10T01:03:13Z jebes: chosen: Never talked to someone working with OCAML/Ml/Haskell/Erlang/<other functional programming>?
2014-05-10T01:03:30Z phadthai: the scheme standard mandates tail recursion optimization; although various CL implementations support that it's not a requirement
2014-05-10T01:03:35Z Chosen: never heard of those languages
2014-05-10T01:03:47Z DigitalRunes: everything I did in Haskell was completely recursive
2014-05-10T01:03:49Z phadthai: also, there are powerful widely used iteration forms like with LOOP
2014-05-10T01:04:03Z jebes: loop is amazing.
2014-05-10T01:04:08Z Chosen: I am using clozure common lisp to learn lisp. Trying to set up the best enivro and tools like SLIME while i learn.
2014-05-10T01:04:34Z Chosen: what is better? loop or recursion?
2014-05-10T01:04:37Z jebes: Oh, that reminds me, I had some code loop that i couldn't get to run, made a recursive version and it worked first time, I really want to know why the loop version wouldn't work
2014-05-10T01:04:41Z jebes: chosen: depends on the context
2014-05-10T01:05:01Z jebes: often loop is easier to read, but for recursive datastructures (such as lists) recursion is often a good choice
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2014-05-10T01:05:52Z phadthai: I agree with jebes, it depends if your problem requires recursion, or if expressing the algorithm is cleanest in recursive forms and efficient enough that way etc
2014-05-10T01:06:30Z Chosen: ty guys.
2014-05-10T01:06:50Z Chosen: do you hit thai pads like the thai boxers?
2014-05-10T01:07:01Z jebes: bwhahahahahaha
2014-05-10T01:07:23Z Chosen: i know karate.
2014-05-10T01:07:26Z phadthai: heh... off topic, but I'm not thai, and the martial arts I practiced were more chinese
2014-05-10T01:07:34Z jebes: chosen: if you want to really learn lisp/programming, I would recommend reading SICP, structure and interpretation of computer programs
2014-05-10T01:07:39Z Chosen: i am a yellow belt in karate. but i dont' practice anymore.
2014-05-10T01:07:42Z jebes: that is, if you know a bit of calculus
2014-05-10T01:08:08Z Chosen: i dont' know calculus!!! what should i read then?
2014-05-10T01:08:27Z Chosen: I just know how to make windows .bat files.
2014-05-10T01:08:46Z jebes: you really only need to know what derivative and an integral is... i didn't really know what they were that much when I started reading it (Still am... hehehe)
2014-05-10T01:08:57Z Chosen: I use emacs to write windows .bat files and put them in the windows scheduler. I am noob. :(
2014-05-10T01:09:02Z JuanDaugherty: 0.0
2014-05-10T01:09:10Z jebes: ^ my reaction too
2014-05-10T01:09:37Z phadthai: hmm a good introduction to both CL and programming is http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2014-05-10T01:09:37Z Chosen: emacs an GNU product seems to handle Microsoft .bat files better than anything Microsoft has. Weird.
2014-05-10T01:09:37Z jebes: i know someone else that learned programming on windows batch files...
2014-05-10T01:10:36Z Chosen: oh. Thank you phadthai.  i will try that book!
2014-05-10T01:10:40Z Chosen: it's free!!!!!@
2014-05-10T01:10:53Z Chosen: omg ty
2014-05-10T01:10:58Z phadthai: yes a previous edition is free
2014-05-10T01:11:02Z jebes: there is also http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2014-05-10T01:11:16Z jebes: i don't know how it compares to the other
2014-05-10T01:11:18Z phadthai: Practical Common Lisp is also free, but it expects more programming background
2014-05-10T01:12:00Z phadthai: it's definitely recommended as well though
2014-05-10T01:12:04Z Chosen: hmm. i think i will go with the Gentle INtro then cuz i need it gentle.
2014-05-10T01:12:55Z phadthai: then another free one is http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisptext.html but that is more advanced
2014-05-10T01:13:11Z Chosen: advacnedd will kill me.
2014-05-10T01:13:25Z jebes: on lisp is a quite advanced book, but it is a good one
2014-05-10T01:13:34Z phadthai: it's also not really following the general common lisp programming guidelines
2014-05-10T01:13:45Z phadthai: but there are nice advanced concepts to learn in it
2014-05-10T01:14:00Z jebes: padthai: have you read let over lambda?
2014-05-10T01:14:08Z phadthai: not yet
2014-05-10T01:14:37Z Chosen: whoa i dont' even understand the title. sounds too advanced for me. let over lada
2014-05-10T01:14:40Z phadthai: there are various others I've not read also
2014-05-10T01:16:29Z Chosen: so i've installed slime and I can use it to type in lisp code. pretty neat. But People were talking  about slime like it was the 2cd coming of Christ. Nicer than .bat files but is there more stuff?
2014-05-10T01:16:57Z jebes: you will reach enlightment. For me it was working with hunchentoot, but you will soon see why it is so amazing.
2014-05-10T01:17:14Z Chosen: damn i wanna learn lisp so bad.
2014-05-10T01:17:22Z jebes: lisp isn't some magic language
2014-05-10T01:17:34Z jebes: you aren't going to magically understand all of programming
2014-05-10T01:17:57Z phadthai: Chosen: hmm it's off-topic here as it's using scheme rather than common lisp, but because it's a good introduction to computer science in general, I also recommend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_and_Interpretation_of_Computer_Programs#External_links there also are video lecture recordings
2014-05-10T01:18:20Z phadthai: ah I now see jebes mentioned it already
2014-05-10T01:18:21Z Chosen: k. i will check out the scheme links.
2014-05-10T01:18:35Z Chosen: ooo. that one takes calculus. and mgiht be too hard for me
2014-05-10T01:18:45Z jebes: if you want to become an amazing programmer lisp can certainly help, but learning other languages is important too. Also understanding lambda calculus (don't be scared by the name) will help
2014-05-10T01:18:47Z JuanDaugherty: it's a joke, right?
2014-05-10T01:18:51Z JuanDaugherty: the calc thing
2014-05-10T01:18:54Z jebes: chosen: its not that hard of math
2014-05-10T01:19:06Z jebes: JuanDaugherty: there is some derivatives and integrals in it.
2014-05-10T01:19:18Z Chosen: can i use common lisp while i work through the Scheme book?
2014-05-10T01:19:25Z Chosen: would it work?
2014-05-10T01:19:36Z Chosen: cuz i wanna learn slime too
2014-05-10T01:19:40Z JuanDaugherty: i mean the bugging at calc
2014-05-10T01:19:48Z phadthai: slime supports some scheme implementations
2014-05-10T01:20:10Z phadthai: I'm not sure which without looking at its source though
2014-05-10T01:20:13Z jebes: not really, it can, but the two languages have some subtly differnt. it also lacks continuations so some of the later chapters wouldn't even be possible in CL...
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2014-05-10T01:20:27Z jebes: mit-scheme is supported iirc.
2014-05-10T01:21:06Z Chosen: hmmm. i could use slime and mit scheme. but still the book might be harder than Gentle INtro
2014-05-10T01:21:29Z phadthai: I'm not sure of the current state, but drscheme seemed to integrate a nice gui and editor for learning also
2014-05-10T01:21:42Z jebes: drscheme is now racket
2014-05-10T01:21:58Z phadthai: is racket backwards compatible enough for the course?
2014-05-10T01:22:04Z Chosen: but slime is the 2cd coming of Christ. is Dr. Scheme the 2cd coming of Christ too?
2014-05-10T01:22:06Z phadthai: (as it's another dialect if I remember)
2014-05-10T01:22:13Z jebes: i honestly do not know...
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2014-05-10T01:23:18Z phadthai: Chosen: commercial lisp implementations often have good IDEs as well
2014-05-10T01:23:28Z phadthai: some have free limited editions
2014-05-10T01:23:41Z Chosen: I wanna slime up. Like totally covered in slime from the slime logo. Going full on, no turning back.
2014-05-10T01:23:47Z phadthai: emacs+slime is what I use myself though, with a free CL implementation
2014-05-10T01:23:58Z jebes: sbcl <3
2014-05-10T01:24:02Z Chosen: i don't know what i can do in slime yet other than type in lisp code but i need to find otu cuz it sounds like magic.
2014-05-10T01:24:42Z jebes: chosen: really the 2nd coming of christ part is coming more from the interactive nature of lisp. Slime just helps the interactivity.
2014-05-10T01:24:43Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2014-05-10T01:25:21Z phadthai: http://xkcd.com/224/
2014-05-10T01:26:29Z DigitalRunes: functional languages seem kinda like magic when you're first starting out
2014-05-10T01:26:44Z Chosen: that's the kind of thing i want to see is what phadthais comic has! i want to see the slime!
2014-05-10T01:27:12Z Chosen: or the lisp or whatever that stuff is. I guess i should start reading Gentle Intro now.
2014-05-10T01:27:12Z jebes: you have to crawl before you can walk, and then run.
2014-05-10T01:27:50Z DigitalRunes: does lisp have a concept of monads?
2014-05-10T01:28:06Z Chosen: k. I will do it. I"m going all the way. People told me .bat files aren't good. I used them to move fiels and stuff. Now I am going full on with the most advanced SLIME and Lisp.
2014-05-10T01:28:16Z jebes: I don't think it does, since it isn't lazy and it isn't purely functional.
2014-05-10T01:28:36Z DigitalRunes: interesting
2014-05-10T01:28:47Z jebes: don't quote me on that, though
2014-05-10T01:29:13Z phadthai: right, you can create monadic libraries, but it's a multiparadigm language, not purely functional, with no clear separation other than what the programmers provide
2014-05-10T01:29:26Z Chosen: quote jebes: id ont' think it does, sicne it tins't lazy and it isnt purely fucntional
2014-05-10T01:29:40Z DigitalRunes: makes sense
2014-05-10T01:30:18Z Chosen: Man i need to start reading gentle intro. I have no idea what is goign on right now.
2014-05-10T01:30:35Z phadthai: likewise, you can implement lazy streams etc, but the common lisp language doesn't provide those... there is support for enough reflexion to allow implementing such though
2014-05-10T01:30:47Z jebes: if you have any questions don't be afraid to ask
2014-05-10T01:31:15Z DigitalRunes: that's good
2014-05-10T01:31:20Z DigitalRunes: there's an option then
2014-05-10T01:31:21Z Chosen: ty jebes!!! I will become the best Slime and lisp user in the world. Just gotta read Gentle intro first. Then i will try the scheme book
2014-05-10T01:31:46Z phadthai: have fun :) bbl
2014-05-10T01:32:00Z Chosen: wait! what's a monad?
2014-05-10T01:32:02Z DigitalRunes: im mostly used to purely functional languages, so it's interesting to see these other paradigms
2014-05-10T01:32:11Z jebes: Chosen: don'
2014-05-10T01:32:19Z jebes: don't worry about it*
2014-05-10T01:32:25Z Chosen: k.
2014-05-10T01:33:15Z Chosen: k. I'm gonna start reading gentle intro now. bye
2014-05-10T01:33:31Z Chosen: man i am so ready to see what slime is capable of
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2014-05-10T02:04:00Z gendl: Fare: ‘twasn’t no thang. Just pressed a couple buttons.
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2014-05-10T02:10:18Z Fare: Oh yes, please press my buttons!
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2014-05-10T02:37:24Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-05-10T02:37:38Z Viaken: G'morning!
2014-05-10T02:37:44Z Viaken: How are you, beach?
2014-05-10T02:37:46Z jebes: morning!
2014-05-10T02:38:01Z beach: Viaken: Fine thanks.  You?
2014-05-10T02:38:11Z Viaken: Pretty good. What brings you in?
2014-05-10T02:38:23Z beach: Old habit.
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2014-05-10T02:39:15Z Viaken: <.< I totally thought I was in a different channel.
2014-05-10T02:39:31Z beach: Oh, that explains it! :)
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2014-05-10T02:39:55Z Viaken: .fr in my tiny hangout would be newsworthy.
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2014-05-10T02:40:39Z beach: nyef: Around?
2014-05-10T02:40:46Z nyef: T
2014-05-10T02:41:26Z beach: nyef: I think the answer to your question is that it would be hard to implement my dispatch method for SBCL without basically changing the layout of most objects.
2014-05-10T02:42:17Z nyef: Mmm. Far too involved for me to even consider attempting. /-:
2014-05-10T02:42:36Z beach: Yeah, probably not worth the effort.
2014-05-10T02:43:16Z beach: It *might* be possible to do it gradually, but I seriously doubt that SBCL maintainers would find it a good thing to do.
2014-05-10T02:44:31Z beach: ... which is what I feared way back, and so I decided not to work on an existing implementation, and instead start a new one.
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2014-05-10T02:47:04Z nyef: I have a hard enough time with the compiler, I don't even want to LOOK AT the PCL stuff.
2014-05-10T02:47:25Z beach: Totally understandable.
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2014-05-10T02:51:34Z brucem: nyef: Does anyone fully understand the PCL impl these days?
2014-05-10T02:51:55Z nyef: I have no idea, though I would suspect not.
2014-05-10T02:52:39Z Bike: the last pcl-internals-y thing i remember was, what, crhodes i think, that precaching bit
2014-05-10T02:53:40Z beach: Yes, Krystof is actively working on PCL.
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2014-05-10T02:55:14Z Fare: beach: what's your dispatch method?
2014-05-10T02:55:40Z beach: Fare: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf
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2014-05-10T03:18:23Z beach: OK, another partially-finished paper, this time for people who like garbage collection: http://metamodular.com/sliding-gc.pdf
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2014-05-10T03:26:07Z nyef: beach: Downloaded. I'll take a look at it this weekend, but not tonight, as I'm about to crash.
2014-05-10T03:26:24Z beach: nyef: Sure.
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2014-05-10T03:30:43Z jebes: (get-post-by-id '(0 1 nil))
2014-05-10T03:30:49Z jebes: oops, that's not my reply
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2014-05-10T03:33:29Z brucem: beach: you might run that by one of the Ravenbrook people. (I could send a mention of it to their internal MPS staff list if you want.)
2014-05-10T03:33:42Z brucem: beach: but they're busy, so I don't know that you'd hear anything back :)
2014-05-10T03:33:54Z brucem: (busy with work and other things like sailing)
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2014-05-10T03:40:10Z jimbow: does anyone have land of lisp?
2014-05-10T03:40:15Z jimbow: the book i mean
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2014-05-10T04:00:31Z beach: brucem: I intend to submit it to a conference.  I assume they have competent people to review it.
2014-05-10T04:01:30Z beach: jimbow: If you have a question about it, just ask.
2014-05-10T04:01:55Z jimbow: well it's a book cover
2014-05-10T04:02:10Z jimbow: and i love the book cover so much that i want to make my business cards out of the same material
2014-05-10T04:02:32Z beach: Good to know.
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2014-05-10T04:06:58Z brucem: beach: then I won't forward it.
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2014-05-10T04:07:17Z beach: brucem: Yeah, I don't think it's necessary.  But thanks anyway.
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2014-05-10T04:11:12Z Viaken: Do I remember a bot in here that can evaluate?
2014-05-10T04:11:49Z beach: No such bot.
2014-05-10T04:12:12Z Viaken shrugs
2014-05-10T04:13:15Z jimbow: so beach can i find out what the book cover is made of?
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2014-05-10T04:13:44Z beach: jimbow: Oh, is *that* your question.  I have no idea.
2014-05-10T04:13:52Z jimbow: lol
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2014-05-10T04:15:13Z beach: You probably need to contact the author or the publishing house.
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2014-05-10T04:18:56Z theos: o/
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2014-05-10T04:31:06Z jimbow: theos: heil hitler!
2014-05-10T04:31:29Z theos: erm
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2014-05-10T07:16:29Z monod: Hello!
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2014-05-10T07:17:17Z monod: What does it mean "the first programmable programming language"?
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2014-05-10T07:18:09Z hitecnologys: monod: well, it means what it means: the first programmable language.
2014-05-10T07:18:13Z p_l: the thing in topic?
2014-05-10T07:18:23Z hitecnologys: AH.
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2014-05-10T07:18:43Z monod: What does it mean to program a programming language? To change the meaning of its keywords?
2014-05-10T07:18:45Z hitecnologys: monod: #1=(foo . #1#) is a syntax for defining corcular lists.
2014-05-10T07:18:47Z p_l: the thing in topic is an infinite sequence of "programmable programmable..." followed by programming language
2014-05-10T07:19:03Z monod: Haha
2014-05-10T07:19:35Z p_l: monod: it refers to flexibility and malleability of language. Lisp was first language to go in that direction, afaik (doesn't mean there are no others)
2014-05-10T07:19:55Z monod: And do you know of any others now?
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2014-05-10T07:20:46Z joga: forth I guess
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2014-05-10T07:21:17Z p_l: monod: outside of various lisps, I suspect at least some stuff related to Smalltalk fits. Forth and Factor. Maybe more
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2014-05-10T07:25:34Z monod: Haskell too maybe?
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2014-05-10T07:30:25Z p_l: Haskell... comes from opposite direction, I think
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2014-05-10T08:16:28Z attila_lendvai: are the old (pre-server-reinstall) mailman passwords supposed to work on common-lisp.net?
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2014-05-10T09:24:16Z H4ns: attila_lendvai: no.  send email if you want me to reset any passwords for you
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2014-05-10T10:22:30Z quazi: so im stuck, i have learnt how to change the working dir of my image while its active, but i cant find any way to cd into a dir on the underlying posix terminal, then exit (as a shell script may do)
2014-05-10T10:23:06Z attila_lendvai: H4ns: cheers!
2014-05-10T10:23:17Z Odin-: quazi: Why are you trying to do that?
2014-05-10T10:23:18Z quazi: such that $ my-lispy-script will cd into /all/the/place
2014-05-10T10:23:37Z H4ns: quazi: a shell script can't do that either, unless you source it
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2014-05-10T10:23:41Z JuanDaugherty: quazi, you can't just 'quit'?
2014-05-10T10:23:58Z H4ns: quazi: the working directory is a property of each process, not of a "session" or whatever you may think.
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2014-05-10T10:24:10Z JuanDaugherty: or did you mean return to the previous context's directory?
2014-05-10T10:24:16Z H4ns: attila_lendvai: sure thing :)
2014-05-10T10:24:47Z quazi: so its undoable
2014-05-10T10:25:11Z H4ns: quazi: not entirely, but it is relatively inconvenient.
2014-05-10T10:25:29Z H4ns: quazi: you can have your lisp program print something that your shell process evaluates
2014-05-10T10:26:00Z Odin-: quazi: But why do you want the script to leave you in a different working directory?
2014-05-10T10:26:42Z quazi: Odin-, the program does a search and takea you into tje dir you select
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2014-05-10T10:28:04Z quazi: H4ns, where should i start to accomplish that?
2014-05-10T10:29:16Z Odin-: You'd need to tell the shell to evaluate the output of your program on each run, I believe.
2014-05-10T10:30:03Z H4ns: quazi: you need to learn about eval in the shell, that is pretty much it
2014-05-10T10:31:10Z quazi: oh ok so i return some path from my script and then wrap it in a shell script?
2014-05-10T10:32:14Z H4ns: no, you define a shell alias that evaluates the output of your lisp program
2014-05-10T10:32:15Z quazi: i guess i can use that to technique to run the sbcl image in its own process but the cd in the same process
2014-05-10T10:32:56Z quazi: H4ns,  yeah i guess that could work too
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2014-05-10T10:36:08Z quazi: is it possible (even if not really sane) to somehow get a reference to the initial shell process and message it to cd somewhere?
2014-05-10T10:36:23Z H4ns: quazi: no
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2014-05-10T10:36:56Z H4ns: quazi: of course, with you being a programmer, anything is "possible".
2014-05-10T10:38:25Z loke_erc: quazi: What operating system>
2014-05-10T10:38:26Z loke_erc: ?
2014-05-10T10:38:37Z quazi: linux
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2014-05-10T10:39:07Z loke_erc: quazi: There is no "easy" way to do this. I can think of a few complicated ways of doing that though.
2014-05-10T10:40:07Z H4ns: yeah, you could change the working directory of the process by mapping /dev/kmem, finding the process header and re-pointing the cwd.
2014-05-10T10:40:13Z quazi: i just want 'correct' or at least the least 'worse' way but as H4ns  has showed i think an alias may be the best way
2014-05-10T10:41:02Z loke_erc: I like H4ns suggestion. The true hacker way
2014-05-10T10:41:35Z loke_erc: In the good old days (50's, 60's?) that was the only way to program
2014-05-10T10:42:10Z loke_erc: (or on the micros of the 80's)
2014-05-10T10:43:00Z quazi: lol
2014-05-10T10:43:11Z quazi: that sounds horrifying
2014-05-10T10:44:13Z loke_erc: quazi: You'd love the book "Apollo Guidance Computer, Architecture and Operation"
2014-05-10T10:44:24Z loke_erc: You'll gain a better appreciation for the programmers of the time.
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2014-05-10T10:44:59Z quazi: also am i the only one who finds the function names and args in common lisps std package to be .... very unintuitive
2014-05-10T10:45:20Z loke_erc: quazi: You are probably the only one
2014-05-10T10:45:29Z loke_erc: Which one do you have a problem with?
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2014-05-10T10:52:29Z quazi: oh i just constantly get lost, probably because i am a ruby guy. any data type.to_s gives me its string representation, while for a path id use namestring in cl... not complaining just a bit outa my depth :)
2014-05-10T10:53:00Z quazi: or print-to-string?
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2014-05-10T11:03:16Z JuanDaugherty: quazi: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCgQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dg0Pxj5FUHKk&ei=ZAduU9riBIesyAT4y4GwAg&usg=AFQjCNFiYTVvONxnLVH6hRhUGLEKzxWYYQ&sig2=-fPEKirKaE1KN1F00chbQQ
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2014-05-10T11:13:04Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142473
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2014-05-10T11:19:02Z loke_erc: re
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2014-05-10T11:33:44Z oleo: morning
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2014-05-10T12:17:36Z leo2007: can after method modify the return value?
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2014-05-10T12:18:12Z H4ns: leo2007: how would it get to the value in the first place?
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2014-05-10T12:20:32Z leo2007: sorry I am not using any clos yet but I need to customise print-object for double-floats.
2014-05-10T12:20:51Z leo2007: H4ns: I was hoping the :after method can be like emacs's after advice.
2014-05-10T12:21:41Z H4ns: leo2007: no.  you can use an around method, but I'm not sure whether overriding methods for system-defined classes is defined to be working.
2014-05-10T12:22:51Z leo2007: H4ns: it is conditional.
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2014-05-10T12:29:21Z _death: maybe you want set-pprint-dispatch
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2014-05-10T12:55:02Z leo2007: I am trying to get swank to pass back double floats to emacs and it seems it is not easy to do.
2014-05-10T12:55:45Z nyef: As in... use a binary representation?
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2014-05-10T12:57:30Z leo2007: nyef: how do you mean? doesn't swank already encode the sexp?
2014-05-10T12:58:03Z nyef: I was more thinking the CPU-native binary representation of the double-float.
2014-05-10T12:58:27Z nyef: Which is a frightening thing to do, partly because it's something that can vary on a per-CPU-architecture basis.
2014-05-10T12:59:22Z leo2007: I see. No that is not what I have in mind. it would be nice if the double float can be written using E instead of D when passing back to emacs.
2014-05-10T12:59:36Z leo2007: then it will automatically read it correctly.
2014-05-10T12:59:44Z nyef: Ah.
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2014-05-10T13:00:29Z nyef: Well, the cheap-hack version is to print it normally to a string, then find and hack up the exponent marker.
2014-05-10T13:00:58Z leo2007: nyef: it seems that will fail if the floats are in a list
2014-05-10T13:01:53Z nyef: Yes, I meant in the pprint-dispatch table, which should work well enough as long as nobody overrides it again.
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2014-05-10T13:03:37Z leo2007: yes, that could work but then I need to enable pprint for all objects. any idea why *print-pretty* is bound to nil in swank-rpc::prin1-to-string-for-emacs
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2014-05-10T13:04:13Z nyef: That I can't help you with.
2014-05-10T13:04:40Z _death: princ - for humans, prin1 - for readers
2014-05-10T13:04:47Z leo2007: can print-object have effect on prin1?
2014-05-10T13:06:07Z pjb: Of course.
2014-05-10T13:06:13Z pjb: See *print-readably*
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2014-05-10T13:07:16Z pjb: leo2007: *print-pretty* t is not a good idea when you're implementing a RPC. (including, eg. data file formats).
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2014-05-10T13:08:15Z leo2007: pjb: thanks. how would you solve the problem of passing double-floats from lisp to emacs in swank?
2014-05-10T13:08:17Z pjb: leo2007: you cannot customize print-object for double-float or any other builtin type, or even standard standard-object
2014-05-10T13:08:36Z pjb: You can customize print-object ONLY on the classes and structures you define yourself.
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2014-05-10T13:09:38Z pjb: Not lisp printing engine.
2014-05-10T13:09:41Z pjb: +using
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2014-05-10T13:14:55Z leo2007: so I probably need an intermediate format that both ends can easily parse.
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2014-05-10T13:16:38Z pjb: leo2007: yes.
2014-05-10T13:17:06Z pjb: leo2007: check integer-decode-float
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2014-05-10T13:21:04Z stassats: leo2007: all you need to do is to convert all floats to double float in swank-rpc::prin1-to-string-for-emacs, and set *read-default-float-format* to 'double-float
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2014-05-10T13:24:30Z leo2007: stassats: how could that solve the problem if floats are in a list?
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2014-05-10T13:25:55Z stassats: straightforwardly
2014-05-10T13:26:29Z pjb: leo2007: I don't understand what you mean by "I am trying to get swank to pass back double floats to emacs and it seems it is not easy to do."
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2014-05-10T13:26:39Z pjb: leo2007: there are no single-float or double-float in emacs lisp!
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2014-05-10T13:26:45Z stassats: there are
2014-05-10T13:26:52Z pjb: How do you write them?
2014-05-10T13:27:16Z leo2007: stassats: emacs double floats share the syntax cl's single-float.
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2014-05-10T13:27:34Z stassats: leo2007: they don't share, in reality
2014-05-10T13:27:49Z pjb: 3.0d3  --> Debugger entered--Lisp error: (void-variable 3\.0d3)
2014-05-10T13:27:53Z stassats: pjb: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Float-Basics.html
2014-05-10T13:28:38Z pjb: So this is exactly what I wrote: there are no single-float or double-float in emacs lisp!
2014-05-10T13:28:40Z jdz: leo2007: just out of curiosity, why do you need double-floats, anyway?
2014-05-10T13:28:46Z pjb: Only floats.
2014-05-10T13:28:46Z stassats: pjb: there are
2014-05-10T13:28:56Z pjb: stassats: you're sbcl centric!
2014-05-10T13:28:57Z stassats: pjb: those are double floats
2014-05-10T13:29:07Z pjb: a double-float is not necessarily a 64-bit IEEE float.
2014-05-10T13:29:24Z jdz: haha
2014-05-10T13:29:29Z jdz: where's my popcorn?
2014-05-10T13:29:29Z pjb: Further, the CL syntax for double float involves a D and this is not understood by emacs lisp.
2014-05-10T13:29:31Z leo2007: jdz: I want to pass results of some computation from lisp to emacs and single-float loses the precision.
2014-05-10T13:29:37Z p_l: actually, double-float sounds similar to double-double, unlike double-precision float :)
2014-05-10T13:29:43Z pjb: There is definitely no cl:single-float or cl:double-float in emacs.
2014-05-10T13:30:07Z stassats: that's why leo2007 is asking his question, but no, it's better to be pedantically dense
2014-05-10T13:30:22Z pjb: leo2007: I don't understand what you mean by: "jdz: I want to pass results of some computation from lisp to emacs and single-float loses the precision."
2014-05-10T13:30:27Z pjb: Can you precise your thoughts?
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2014-05-10T13:31:13Z jdz: pjb: "precise" is an adjective, not a verb
2014-05-10T13:31:30Z H4ns: jdz: it does not matter, it is the others who need to be precise.
2014-05-10T13:31:32Z leo2007: precision.
2014-05-10T13:31:48Z H4ns: jdz: also, it is all about learning and teaching, which is something that pjb does very very well
2014-05-10T13:32:14Z pjb: leo2007: when you type (+ 1.1d1 2.2d2) in slime REPL, CL sends back to emacs 231.0D0, so it already do what you want!
2014-05-10T13:32:20Z H4ns: pjb: please repeat something that you have said before to help me learn better.
2014-05-10T13:32:26Z stassats: pprint-dispatch doesn't work, because prin1-to-string-for-emacs sets *print-pretty* to nil, so, my solution from earlier in the morning still stands
2014-05-10T13:32:41Z stassats: recursively switch all floats to double, *read-default-float-format* to 'double-float
2014-05-10T13:32:41Z leo2007: pjb: yes, I need the values for elisp.
2014-05-10T13:32:44Z pjb: H4ns: ASCII control codes are not characters.
2014-05-10T13:32:55Z stassats: couldn't be any easier
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2014-05-10T13:33:46Z H4ns: wwlna
2014-05-10T13:33:47Z pjb: leo2007: elisp has only float type which is a 64-bit ieee floating point value.  So if you format your double-float in the syntax taken by emacs lisp you will be able to read your values without loss of precision.
2014-05-10T13:34:07Z jdz: leo2007: just for the record, if the lisp implemantation double-float has more precision than the emacs lisp one, you'd still lose precision.
2014-05-10T13:34:40Z jdz: leo2007: and since you're using floats anyway, the precision argument is quite weak, anyway
2014-05-10T13:35:16Z jdz: leo2007: especially if you don't convert the intermediate results, but only the end result of the calculation
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2014-05-10T13:36:31Z jdz: leo2007: i'm just trying to see if you're completely sure you're really solving a problem
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2014-05-10T13:37:12Z pjb: Since common lisp is better at numbers, why would you want to send numeric values back to emacs lisp?
2014-05-10T13:37:19Z pjb: Just send results as strings.
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2014-05-10T13:39:32Z leo2007: pjb: yes, you are right. I am just checking if possible to use lisp as ffi for elisp via swank, for example using expm1 in elisp
2014-05-10T13:40:50Z leo2007: jdz: this is just for fun, using cl to extend emacs.
2014-05-10T13:41:28Z jdz: leo2007: i see. you should try to listen to stassats then.
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2014-05-10T13:41:39Z leo2007: pjb: if you send a string back, elisp still has to parse it.
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2014-05-10T13:44:09Z pjb: leo2007: the point is that not all CL values are representable with emacs lisp data types.
2014-05-10T13:44:31Z pjb: leo2007: perhaps you should do something like CLAUDE :-)
2014-05-10T13:44:54Z stassats: while you were quarreling, i committed a change to swank-rpc::prin1-to-string-for-emacs that switches floats to double-floats, including inside lists
2014-05-10T13:45:26Z stassats: don't tell me you need vectors too, since vectors have a different syntax too
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2014-05-10T13:46:06Z pjb: leo2007: you can do bi-directional RPC between emacs lisp and swank, but you shoud send to emacs, an emacs lisp form, that only contains emacs lisp data, and vice versa, you should send to cl a cl form that contains only cl data.
2014-05-10T13:46:10Z leo2007: pjb: one way to do this is to encode the literal values in CL in a sexp before sending back to emacs. elisp can then eval to uncover the value.
2014-05-10T13:46:55Z pjb: Common Lisp is more powerful, it's easier to build an emacs lisp sexp in CL than to parse a CL sexp in emacs lisp to convert it there.
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2014-05-10T13:48:51Z jebes: is the only way to get defmethod behavoir in macros is to make a macro writing macro, or would one use a macro-let in a method?
2014-05-10T13:49:06Z pjb: What is defmethod behavior?
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2014-05-10T13:49:50Z pjb: The behavior of defmethod is to define a method.  Do you want to write a macro to define a method?
2014-05-10T13:49:54Z leo2007: but the point is eamcs cannot get the value of some rpc's.
2014-05-10T13:50:05Z pjb: leo2007: exactly!
2014-05-10T13:50:28Z pjb: leo2007: eg. in clisp, long-floats can have thousands of digits of precision!
2014-05-10T13:50:50Z jebes: i can have two classes, say post and reply, I can have a generic method make-reply which then specializes on post and reply.
2014-05-10T13:50:56Z jebes: so I should have said method specialization
2014-05-10T13:51:09Z pjb: There's no generic method.
2014-05-10T13:51:14Z pjb: Do you want a generic function or a method?
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2014-05-10T13:51:24Z pjb: ok.
2014-05-10T13:51:30Z jebes: excuse me, generic function
2014-05-10T13:52:59Z pjb: So what do you want a macro for?
2014-05-10T13:54:10Z leo2007: pjb: certainly we cannot map all CL types to elisp but double floats are supported so it is natural to ask if the swank rpc can preserve that.
2014-05-10T13:54:26Z pjb: It can if you send the right string to emacs.
2014-05-10T13:54:58Z jebes: i need a generic function (make-reply) that creates a class when provided with another specific class. Without defining a bunch of similair methods, I thought that macros would be a good solution to it.
2014-05-10T13:55:21Z leo2007: exactly that is what people have been suggesting, pprint dispatch etc.
2014-05-10T13:55:43Z pjb: leo2007: (substitute #\e #\D (format nil "~e" (+ 1.1d1 2.2d2)))
2014-05-10T13:56:32Z jebes: the problem is that each class may have more slots than another
2014-05-10T13:56:49Z pjb: in CL, printing readably is only specified within the same lisp image!  You cannot expect to use meaningfully print on one implementation and read on another.  Let alone to another language!
2014-05-10T13:57:41Z leo2007: pjb: thus it is not easy.
2014-05-10T13:57:41Z pjb: jebes: yes, if you need to create classes, you can write a macro, but if you want to create them at run-time, you should use a function.
2014-05-10T13:58:00Z pjb: leo2007: how not easy?  It just took me two function calls!
2014-05-10T13:58:45Z jebes: pjb: I wanted to generate the functions to generate the classes. I think i have a mildly working solution right now, will probably refactor later
2014-05-10T13:58:57Z pjb: Sounds good.
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2014-05-10T14:06:21Z leo2007: pjb: to make this work for all types that we want to uncover from the emacs side, we need to define printing for other data types
2014-05-10T14:06:43Z pjb: Don't build a FFI over "printing"!
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2014-05-10T14:26:56Z leo2007: stassats: what you suggest is the thorough i.e. make prin1-to-string-for-emacs actually print for emacs.
2014-05-10T14:27:37Z stassats: prin1-to-string-for-emacs already handles double-floats, if that's all you need
2014-05-10T14:28:04Z leo2007: stassats: it prints double floats in a way that cannot be read back by emacs's reader.
2014-05-10T14:28:16Z stassats: nope
2014-05-10T14:28:29Z leo2007: ?
2014-05-10T14:29:08Z jdz: leo2007: just read the log
2014-05-10T14:29:21Z leo2007: stassats: I saw it now. thanks for the commit.
2014-05-10T14:29:50Z stassats: for more types, setting *print-pretty* to t shouldn't affect things, then pprint-dispatch
2014-05-10T14:30:03Z stassats: to print characters and vectors
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2014-05-10T14:35:28Z leo2007: but this cannot be done without modifying swank-rpc
2014-05-10T14:35:55Z stassats: so what?
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2014-05-10T15:20:44Z Xach: stassats: the quicklisp error that vexed you is now continuable
2014-05-10T15:21:02Z stassats: yay
2014-05-10T15:22:06Z leo2007: stassats: didn't know that *read-default-float-format* changes prin1-to-string.
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2014-05-10T15:24:47Z leo2007: stassats: in (slime-eval sexp) what to do so that when sexp is read CL is current package? I am getting tired of prefixing.
2014-05-10T15:25:13Z stassats: nothing
2014-05-10T15:26:46Z leo2007: for example (slime-eval '(* 2 2))
2014-05-10T15:26:49Z leo2007: fails
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2014-05-10T15:26:59Z stassats: sure, nothing to be done
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2014-05-10T15:28:01Z leo2007: ok
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2014-05-10T16:48:39Z krrrcks: I always used Slime/Swank for remote access via SSH. Is there a way to connect without SSH just from machine to machine?
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2014-05-10T16:49:43Z Xach: krrrcks: not built-in
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2014-05-10T16:51:38Z stassats: built-in, not safe
2014-05-10T16:52:33Z stassats: krrrcks: (setf swank::*loopback-interface* "0.0.0.0")
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2014-05-10T17:15:49Z krrrcks: stassats: Xach: Thanks! :-)
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2014-05-10T17:32:17Z krrrcks: stassats: works. thanks. :)
2014-05-10T17:32:29Z krrrcks: stassats: only for testing purposes. :)
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2014-05-10T17:36:11Z slyrus: any exciting reports from ELS?
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2014-05-10T18:54:57Z msmith: hi all.  Say I have a restart and I want to execute to forms, one after the other inside of the restart, how can I accomplish this?  for instance, I have a restart that prints a string and then closes a socket connection, but the first for is not executed, even with both being inside a progn.
2014-05-10T18:55:08Z msmith: to/two/s
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2014-05-10T18:56:02Z nyef: At a guess, both forms are executing, but you neglected to flush your output buffer.
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2014-05-10T19:01:05Z msmith: nyef:  but I would think that it shouldn't matter as the msg should be printed first.  If the code to close the socket is removed, it is printed without issue.
2014-05-10T19:01:55Z nyef: Is it printed to the socket?
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2014-05-10T19:04:26Z msmith: nyef: http://paste.lisp.org/+31XS
2014-05-10T19:04:26Z pjb: msmith: (with-simple-restart (the-restart-you-have "The restart you have" (first form) (second form) (one) (after) (another)) (do-something))
2014-05-10T19:04:35Z msmith: nyef: yes
2014-05-10T19:05:02Z pjb: Oops, no, this is wrong.
2014-05-10T19:05:17Z nyef: You're expecting FORMAT NIL to have a side-effect?
2014-05-10T19:06:47Z msmith: nyef: well I guess it wouldn't because it wouldn't be returned to anything
2014-05-10T19:07:10Z ggole: I've made that mistake.
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2014-05-10T19:07:25Z ggole: Wonder if it would have been better (format 'string ...)
2014-05-10T19:07:29Z pjb: msmith: I meant: (restart-case (do-something) ((the-restart-you-have () :report "the restart you have" (first form) (second form) (one) (after) (another))))
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2014-05-10T19:15:36Z msmith: I think I know what I'm doing wrong.  I'm expecting the first form to be returned from where the handler-bind is called but of course that will not be the case so while the first form is executed, it is not printed to the socket.
2014-05-10T19:16:35Z nyef: Have a look at PROG1 (PROG2 is specified to do the same, but nobody actually implements it that way).
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2014-05-10T19:23:15Z White_Flame: nyef:  What's the difference between the spec and implementations for prog2?
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2014-05-10T19:24:10Z pjb: The spec is: (defmacro prog2 (one two &body body) (let ((vresult (gensym))) `(progn ,one (let ((,vresult ,two)) ,@body ,vresult))))
2014-05-10T19:24:20Z pjb: err, this is the implementation.
2014-05-10T19:24:41Z nyef: clhs prog2
2014-05-10T19:24:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog1c.htm
2014-05-10T19:24:44Z pjb: The spec is: (defmacro prog2 (one two &body body) (let ((vresult (gensym))) `(let ((,vresult ,one)) ,two ,@body ,vresult)))
2014-05-10T19:24:54Z nyef: Read carefully and you might see why nobody follows that part of the spec.
2014-05-10T19:25:42Z White_Flame: oh, yeah my mind substituted "second-form" for "first-form" because that seemed obvious
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2014-05-10T19:25:59Z pjb: Yes, everybody's mind doing that.
2014-05-10T19:26:04Z White_Flame: what's the use case fort he spec's prog2 then?
2014-05-10T19:26:10Z Bike: a typo
2014-05-10T19:26:21Z nyef: The use case? It's a bug in the editor's wetware!
2014-05-10T19:26:59Z pjb: I guess the use case is to detect if the implementor is an idiot or not :-)
2014-05-10T19:27:01Z nyef: As pjb said, *EVERYBODY'S* mind does that.
2014-05-10T19:27:05Z White_Flame: wow, and due to the standardization process, the text shall not be modified?
2014-05-10T19:27:20Z pjb: We don't have the budget to modify it :-)
2014-05-10T19:27:24Z Bike: it's not the only mistake in the spec, it's just really obvious
2014-05-10T19:27:42Z nyef: Actually, IIUC, the text isn't the standard, the text is a DESCRIPTION of the standard.
2014-05-10T19:28:24Z White_Flame: so the text is incorrect, but the standard of returning the valuation of second-form is correct? ;)
2014-05-10T19:28:42Z pjb: Yes, prog2 returns the result of the second form.
2014-05-10T19:28:43Z oGMo: nyef: the note at the bottom also contradicts the clear typo
2014-05-10T19:29:01Z nyef: You'd have to check the actual voting record and the text of the '84 standard.
2014-05-10T19:29:03Z oGMo: but, yes, mistakes abound heh
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2014-05-10T20:54:26Z drewc looks at the date .... one month and 10 days past the PROG2 fools day ....
2014-05-10T20:54:37Z p_l: ?
2014-05-10T20:54:46Z p_l: why prog2 fools day? :)
2014-05-10T20:56:53Z oleo: lol
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2014-05-10T21:01:07Z drewc: p_l: somewhere, at sometime. someone .... heh : http://ww.telent.net/2005/4/
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2014-05-10T21:02:18Z drewc: "** Many bug fixes  [(terpri)] - <b>PROG2 returns the primary value of its first argument, as per ANSI</b>
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2014-05-10T21:03:33Z drewc is now showing at least how long he has been a Lispnik for :P
2014-05-10T21:04:28Z nyef: I'll confirm here and now that the '84 standard defines PROG2 to return the value of the second argument.
2014-05-10T21:04:29Z p_l: lol
2014-05-10T21:04:44Z Odin-: 84?
2014-05-10T21:04:48Z drewc: but notice the date on that post, and the "A total of one person spotted this and thought it unusual enough to ask about. Next year our April Fool will be less subtle, I promise." post-fix :)
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2014-05-10T21:05:12Z nyef: Odin-: The original COMMON LISP standard was in '84. The ANSI standard is from '94.
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2014-05-10T21:05:43Z Odin-: nyef: That's what I figured. I asked because the reference was explicitly to ANSI... :p
2014-05-10T21:06:23Z nyef: Sure, but I figured I'd check to see if the issue was inherited from the original spec, or introduced during the ANSI process.
2014-05-10T21:06:47Z drewc: nyef: you mean CLtL1 as the 'original spec', yeah?
2014-05-10T21:07:15Z nyef: Of course. As it IS the original common lisp specification.
2014-05-10T21:07:21Z p_l: and is from 1984
2014-05-10T21:07:32Z drewc is thinking of the 1984 books that he owns ... and really hopes that is it and not Orwell! 
2014-05-10T21:07:43Z Odin-: Informal specifications are still specifications, right?
2014-05-10T21:08:06Z nyef: CLtL is a formal spec.
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2014-05-10T21:08:29Z drewc: Odin-: yes, hence why I host the modern version of the informal CL spec! :)
2014-05-10T21:08:39Z Odin-: :p
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2014-05-10T21:09:46Z drewc: http://www.cliki.net/Proposed%20Extensions%20To%20ANSI <--- that may count :)
2014-05-10T21:09:49Z Odin-: By "informal" I mean "not issued by an official body". I believe CLtL (and not only the second edition) was officially a single author's work. Am I mistaken?
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2014-05-10T21:10:02Z drewc: his body is fake?
2014-05-10T21:10:38Z Odin-: drewc: Equivocation is always good as a source of humour. :)
2014-05-10T21:10:50Z drewc: or the gov't defining a corpus makes the body real? :)
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2014-05-10T21:11:52Z drewc is a certain pole on the political compass ... hope is it not obvious which one! :P
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2014-05-10T21:12:16Z Odin-: I don't mean "government-sanctioned". I mean "persistent organisation whose purpose is to produce specifications".
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2014-05-10T21:13:23Z drewc: what does the A an ANSI stand for ... therein lies my confusion! ... I will be silent now ...
2014-05-10T21:14:17Z Odin-: drewc: ANSI is government-sanctioned, sure. But I'd also call IETF an official body.
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2014-05-10T21:16:34Z drewc: Odin-: the Internet Society is like the UN when it comes to sanctioning ... it is a union of nation's working groups
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2014-05-10T21:17:16Z drewc: and of course, where is it based headquarter-wise?
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2014-05-10T21:20:40Z Odin-: drewc: If you're arguing that IETF is an intergovernmental organisation, which is not significantly less dependent on the state apparatus than the national standards committees, I'm really not going to bother. :p
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2014-05-10T21:23:07Z drewc: Odin-: I happen to be a supporter of the MeshNet, and use CJDNS, and believe that the Internet is a ... well.... no comment that could and will be logged ... 'snow' falls in my 'den'.
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2014-05-10T21:24:47Z drewc now mumbles about his heartbleed and how he is all for libre over open ... to try and (not) change the topic :D
2014-05-10T21:25:07Z nyef: ... LibreBSD?
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2014-05-10T21:26:40Z drewc: nyef: http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20140509092303&mode=expanded&count=0 <--- how about a properly encrypted and not at all Open (to all) SSL :)
2014-05-10T21:27:37Z nyef: ... Hrm. I *HAVE* an IRIX box. I'd better make sure it's not running Visual C 1.5.2.
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2014-05-10T21:29:28Z drewc also mentions that there is a Quantum Computer nearby that the meta-OS is written in Common Lisp ... and there are more than enough things in the metaverse to crack any encryption instantly... and looks at his compass...
2014-05-10T21:29:43Z Odin-: drewc: Y'know, I've been subjected to a secret (for two years) search warrant for "any and all data" related to my Google account due to Internet activism. Your paranoia is underwhelming. :)
2014-05-10T21:29:56Z Odin-: Well, year and a half.
2014-05-10T21:31:23Z drewc: well, as luck would have it, there is no need for a search warrant to access my google data, as I am not USAsian ... As I unfortunately know from the court :)
2014-05-10T21:32:07Z Odin-: Neither am I.
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2014-05-10T21:34:28Z drewc: but, GPG for anything that matters, with a 'sorry, that key expired and I cannot decrypt it' as my standard defence means that until the quanta have some say in it ....
2014-05-10T21:34:49Z stassats: can i subject you to a search warrant due to off-topic?
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2014-05-10T21:40:20Z drewc: stassats: indeed, starting from PROG2 and on to http://www.dwavesys.com/ by way of making a corpus is mostly off topic. Sorry about that ... therein lies my confusion! ... I will be silent now ...
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2014-05-10T21:46:30Z Fare doesn't use cjdns (yet?) but uses gpg and has just started using tor seriously
2014-05-10T21:47:07Z Fare wonders about how to properly use cl in nixos
2014-05-10T21:47:30Z Fare: or gambit, or racket, etc.
2014-05-10T21:47:37Z Fare: chicken
2014-05-10T21:48:08Z drewc: Fare: heh ... I tried to make an SBCL package for guix ... BUT IIRC there already is one for NixOs ...
2014-05-10T21:48:17Z drewc: s/Os/OS/
2014-05-10T21:48:35Z Fare: yes, there is a sbcl package for nixos
2014-05-10T21:48:58Z dim: bigloo, hop, hiphop too?
2014-05-10T21:49:11Z Fare: I suppose I could do "as if", and invalidate my caches whenever I update sbcl
2014-05-10T21:49:16Z drewc: but, beyond that, no idea.
2014-05-10T21:49:22Z Fare: hadn't heard of hiphop.
2014-05-10T21:49:54Z drewc uses gambit + Guix all the time of course
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2014-05-10T21:50:38Z Fare: drewc: good datapoint to have
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2014-05-10T21:52:10Z drewc: '94 was 20 years ago
2014-05-10T21:52:30Z stassats: just math things
2014-05-10T21:52:35Z drewc: wow ... my head is just doing the math ... sorry about that folks
2014-05-10T21:54:09Z Fare: drewc: so you use guix instead of nixos? on top of what substrate?
2014-05-10T21:54:30Z Fare: or is guix standalone these days?
2014-05-10T21:54:53Z drewc: Fare: I use guix on top of Debian, Mint 16 or Android.
2014-05-10T21:55:37Z drewc: They have a standalone image that works under qemu, but I have not used it beyond 'heh, it runs!'
2014-05-10T21:57:59Z drewc: it is supposed to be a dist though, all said and done, so standalone is in the near future. That said, I have 5 computers around me ... 4 are running Android, and one Linux Mint 16, so likely never to go with standalone, and really prefer avoiding Xwindows where possible, hence Android.
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2014-05-10T21:59:31Z Fare: so you drop into a shell, set your $PATH, and there you go?
2014-05-10T21:59:41Z drewc even runs android on his Pentium M Thinkpad X41 ... and CCL is installed on all my devices (so On Topic for stassats!) 
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2014-05-10T22:00:52Z Fare: android on a thinkpad? You mean, as the main OS?
2014-05-10T22:00:57Z drewc: I do not even bother with the $PATH ... ~/.guix-profile/bin/emacs is from force of habit, and I have to Alt-Backspace out the emacs
2014-05-10T22:01:21Z drewc: Fare: yup
2014-05-10T22:01:49Z drewc: it does not even dual boot these days ... 100% pure android.
2014-05-10T22:01:56Z Fare: sounds weird. What kind of runtime does it have? some kind of terminal and busybox?
2014-05-10T22:02:48Z drewc: Fare: http://stefanseidel.info/index.php?view=article&id=3:android-x86
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2014-05-10T22:03:27Z drewc: it has whatever I install on it ... including my ubuntu/debian chroots of course.
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2014-05-10T22:03:49Z stassats: froyo? how quaint
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2014-05-10T22:04:26Z drewc: heh .. .that was a link but was the wrong page!
2014-05-10T22:05:08Z Fare: drewc: does guix have plenty of magic filesystems like nixos?
2014-05-10T22:05:34Z nyef: What's the point of android on x86?
2014-05-10T22:06:05Z p_l: nyef: from the pov android? it doesn't care. The shape of the device has more to say :)
2014-05-10T22:06:05Z drewc: nyef: well, what is the point of OSX on x86?
2014-05-10T22:06:36Z nyef: drewc: I still don't understand that one. I LIKE PowerPC, damnit!
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2014-05-10T22:07:50Z drewc: nyef: FWIW, I agree with you 100%, and actually really like ARM these days.
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2014-05-10T22:08:33Z nyef: I'm getting tired of ARM at the moment, but that has more to do with SBCL work than anything else.
2014-05-10T22:09:49Z p_l: nyef: well, there are new Power motherboards on the market :3
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2014-05-10T22:10:22Z nyef: big-endian power would be interesting to work with for a bit.
2014-05-10T22:10:46Z p_l: nyef: I don't know if the firmware on the boards allows BigEndian mode, but LE is definitely working
2014-05-10T22:10:53Z drewc: I like it because, well ... I live on a boat. It is fast, stable and uses almost _no_ power ... 0.5 Amps at 5v DC mean it can run off a completely dead 12v battery that will not even charge :)
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2014-05-10T22:11:52Z nyef: Hrm... This actually might be worth checking out, especially since my main computer is on the list of tested platforms.
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2014-05-10T22:17:04Z p_l: still, the power8 cpus are bi-endian. IBM will still charge you $8k for a p-series machine that will *definitely* run BE
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2014-05-10T22:22:52Z Fare: what's the point of bigendian? saving one instruction when decoding data in network order?
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2014-05-10T22:23:34Z stassats`: what's the point of little endian?
2014-05-10T22:23:58Z Fare: being compatible with the 6502, the awesomest 8-bit CPU.
2014-05-10T22:23:58Z p_l: the same point as little endian? in the end, on any modern hw, the only issue you might ever have is if you have system with LE I/O and BE CPU, or vice versa
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2014-05-10T22:46:11Z pjb: Fare: actually, I prefer the 6809.
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2014-05-10T22:51:00Z pjb: Fare: the point of big endian is to be easier to read and debug with memory dumps.  big endian is nicer to the assembler programmer.
2014-05-10T22:51:58Z p_l: and logical, and it didn't mattered back when things were word-addressed
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2014-05-10T22:53:11Z pjb: Well, logical can be argued.  It's easier to process variable length integers or big integers in little endian.
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2014-05-10T22:57:45Z stassats`: the SBCL arm port is now merged with upstream
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2014-05-11T00:00:11Z CrazyWoods: Are there someone here ever using GNUSTEP?
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2014-05-11T00:01:24Z Fare: congrats with this merge!
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2014-05-11T00:04:29Z Chosen: hey everyone
2014-05-11T00:05:02Z Chosen: I am noob but i want to try and understand something. Why is a hygenic macro? What are the advantages? And what are the advantages of a non-hygenic macro?
2014-05-11T00:05:34Z pjb: CrazyWoods: I use it from time to time. So far, not yet with lisp unfortunately.
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2014-05-11T00:06:02Z Chosen: is pjb = peanut butter jelly time.
2014-05-11T00:06:05Z Fare: Chosen, there are many tutorials online. Search for "racket hygienic macros"
2014-05-11T00:06:07Z pjb: Chosen: CL macros are not hygienic.  This is not a problem in general, because CL is a lisp-2.
2014-05-11T00:06:22Z Chosen: are there advantages to being not-hygenic?
2014-05-11T00:06:36Z Fare: hygienic macros are much better if you want to do a lot of nested and/or modular macro work
2014-05-11T00:06:52Z pjb: Chosen: in Scheme, which is a lisp-1, non-hygienic macros are more of a problem.  Therefore they need the Panzer Tank of hygienic macros.
2014-05-11T00:06:55Z Fare: for simple macros, the CL way is easier
2014-05-11T00:07:29Z Chosen: so the advantage for Un-hygenirc macros is they are easier for certain kinds of macros?
2014-05-11T00:07:46Z Fare: syntax-case macros have other advantages, such as better source location information, etc.
2014-05-11T00:08:10Z Chosen: are syntaxe-case macros hygenic?
2014-05-11T00:08:14Z Fare: yes
2014-05-11T00:08:20Z Fare: poster child thereof, these days
2014-05-11T00:08:28Z Chosen: btw i have no idea what i'm talking about. Just want to know if there are any advantages to the common lisp style.
2014-05-11T00:08:36Z Chosen: becuase i'm learnign common lisp
2014-05-11T00:08:47Z Fare: it looks like syntax-case has won over explicit-renaming and other ways of doing hygienic macros.
2014-05-11T00:08:58Z CrazyWoods: pjb: so objc?
2014-05-11T00:09:05Z pjb: Yes.
2014-05-11T00:09:33Z pjb: CrazyWoods: there's an objective-c bridge that could be used, but it's for an older version of objective-c gcc.
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2014-05-11T00:10:07Z Fare: also hygienic macros arguably work better in the context of mixing (yet distinguishing) multiple languages or language levels or evaluation times.
2014-05-11T00:10:36Z Fare: manually ensuring that you're using the correct "gensym" at each level can otherwise be "interesting".
2014-05-11T00:10:41Z sjl_ is now known as sjl
2014-05-11T00:10:48Z CrazyWoods: pjb: what are you use objc for, GUI programming?
2014-05-11T00:11:07Z pjb: For OpenStep applications.
2014-05-11T00:11:14Z Fare: see also my article on the horrors of eval-when.
2014-05-11T00:11:28Z pjb: Notice that indeed, you could use ecl, calling CL code from Objective-C.
2014-05-11T00:11:35Z pjb: Fare: url?
2014-05-11T00:11:48Z pjb: I don't find it horrible, but then, I only use toplevel eval-when.
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2014-05-11T00:13:23Z Chosen: i'm gonna go read more. I'm reading Gentle INtro to common lisp.
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2014-05-11T00:13:49Z pjb: CrazyWoods: also, if you don't have an Objective-C bridge (or a C++ bridge), you can always define a C API on your objects, and use cffi to call that C API.
2014-05-11T00:14:00Z Chosen: do you guys use slime?
2014-05-11T00:14:04Z pjb: Of course.
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2014-05-11T00:14:08Z Chosen: yay!
2014-05-11T00:14:10Z Fare: pjb: http://fare.livejournal.com/146698.html
2014-05-11T00:14:15Z pjb: Thanks.
2014-05-11T00:14:40Z Chosen: in emacs erc that link is clickable!!!
2014-05-11T00:15:13Z Chosen: pjb do you use ac-slime to integrate slime with autocomplete?
2014-05-11T00:15:18Z AdmiralBumbleBee: is anyone aware of a decent blogpost or writeup on a 'common lisp workflow', such as a basic development process?
2014-05-11T00:15:32Z pjb: Chosen: I didn't know it before you mention it. I've used autocomplete mode before.
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2014-05-11T00:16:20Z Chosen: AdmiralBumbleBee: i want to know the same thign!!! i'm new to lisp, but Slime is the 2cd coming of christ for interactive environment for lisp. And the completion with ac-slime is like VisualStudio for C#
2014-05-11T00:16:23Z axion: so i just updated to sbcl 1.1.17 and the latest quicklisp. i get an error when quickloading systems: [Condition of type QL-DIST:BADLY-SIZED-LOCAL-ARCHIVE]. not sure if this is due to the former or latter, or how to fix
2014-05-11T00:17:09Z Chosen: pjb. ac-slime is on melpa. if you type M-x list-packages or something like that.
2014-05-11T00:17:14Z AdmiralBumbleBee: Chosen: I'm actually looking to explain it to someone who's never used lisp and I'm failing... I'm hoping there's something well-written out there on the topic
2014-05-11T00:17:17Z CrazyWoods: pjb: i want to use it as GUI develop toolkit
2014-05-11T00:17:28Z pjb: Good idea.
2014-05-11T00:18:29Z jebes: crazywoods: have you looked at CLIM?
2014-05-11T00:18:40Z jebes: it is mostly dead but it is an intersting toolkit
2014-05-11T00:19:19Z Chosen: AdmiralBumbleBee: I don't know any articles. But you could describe it as a living environemnt that exists while youe develop and you can modify as you develop. OTher programming thingys it's a dead environment while you dev, nothing alive until you compile and run.
2014-05-11T00:20:41Z jebes: admiralbumblebee: have you even looked at smalltalk?
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2014-05-11T00:21:13Z AdmiralBumbleBee: jebes: I just finished SBE actually, why?
2014-05-11T00:21:21Z axion: nevermind. i backed up/deleted .cache, .slime, and local-projects/*. seems to work now
2014-05-11T00:21:31Z jebes: lisp has the same development ideas and whatnot as smalltalk
2014-05-11T00:21:55Z jebes: it is an interactive reflexive environment that supports iterative development.... jesus christ I sound like HR
2014-05-11T00:22:03Z jebes: it supports really just any dynamic development style
2014-05-11T00:22:17Z AdmiralBumbleBee: jebes: I'm attempting to explain the process to a fellow developer who only uses C, and I am failing
2014-05-11T00:22:28Z jebes: admiralbublebee: oh sorry...
2014-05-11T00:22:31Z AdmiralBumbleBee: hence I'm looking for external resources to direct him to
2014-05-11T00:22:39Z AdmiralBumbleBee: jebes: I should have been more clear originally
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2014-05-11T00:23:24Z jebes: admiralbumblebee: tell him you can change a webserver at run time by recompiling a function. That's pretty amazing and packs a lot of what lisp development is about in one sentence
2014-05-11T00:24:15Z pjb: CrazyWoods: darcs clone http://matthias.benkard.de/code/objective-cl benkard-objective-cl ; git clone http://git.informatimago.com/public/objective-cl informatimago-objective-cl
2014-05-11T00:24:15Z pjb:  
2014-05-11T00:24:15Z pjb:  
2014-05-11T00:25:22Z pjb: CrazyWoods: benkard's should work with an old gcc using Objective-C API version 1 or something;  the other repository is work in progress, where I update it for API version 2, and where I gathered some other Objective-C stuff.
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2014-05-11T00:25:49Z pjb: CrazyWoods: now, of course, current GNUstep uses API version 2, with the newest gcc!
2014-05-11T00:26:26Z pjb: jebes: you've got it on the reverse: Smalltalk has the same development ideas and whatnot as lisp.
2014-05-11T00:26:35Z pjb: interlisp and lispmachine in particular.
2014-05-11T00:27:12Z jebes: pjb: yea, that's true. I thought that admiral was new (they obviously arent')
2014-05-11T00:28:02Z Chosen: so weird that lisp got it right the first time without any previous languages for trial/error. How was the original creator of lisp able to know this? was he 2cd coming of christ?
2014-05-11T00:28:16Z jebes: chosen: FORTRAN was first
2014-05-11T00:28:29Z Fare: what about the CCL objC bridge?
2014-05-11T00:28:48Z pjb: It uses apple's compiler. So yet another Objective-C runtime.
2014-05-11T00:28:57Z jebes: also, it was really Alonzo Church with idea of lambda calculus, McCarthy just implemented it in a language
2014-05-11T00:29:11Z Fare: Chosen, Lisp got it wrong in many ways, and got many things right by chance
2014-05-11T00:29:18Z pjb: CrazyWoods: we'd need a libfixobjc like libfixposix, to provide a unique and nice Objective-C runtime API covering gcc API 2, gcc API 1, Apple API, and Cocotron (MS-Windows) API.
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2014-05-11T00:29:37Z jebes: Fare: i know lisp has some downfalls, but what do you think they are?
2014-05-11T00:29:37Z pjb: CrazyWoods: then we could implement a Lisp <-> Objective-C  bridge over this libfixobjc.
2014-05-11T00:29:48Z Chosen: just seems like i don't know anything. But somehow lisp creator was able to make the ultimate language that even modern lagnauges are lesser beings.
2014-05-11T00:30:00Z jebes: chosen: that's not quite right
2014-05-11T00:30:08Z jebes: you're going into this the wrong way
2014-05-11T00:30:14Z Chosen: things I need to study for years to understand, he got right the first time without previous knowlege. Was he a genious?
2014-05-11T00:30:25Z pjb: Yes.
2014-05-11T00:30:54Z Chosen: yes he was genious?
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2014-05-11T00:31:02Z axion: anyone knowledgable enough about pogo to answer a few basic questions i cannot find the answer to?
2014-05-11T00:31:23Z axion: pomo*
2014-05-11T00:31:25Z pjb: Chosen: yes he was. https://www.google.com/search?q=John+McCarthy
2014-05-11T00:31:39Z pjb: Chosen: yes he was. https://www.google.com/search?q=John+McCarthy+lisp
2014-05-11T00:31:46Z Fare: jebes: if by Lisp you mean CL, let's see: pathnames that suck, underspecified behavior in the standard more generally, no tail call guarantee, no delimited continuations, no good concurrency support, ten incompatible implementations that don't talk to each other, etc.
2014-05-11T00:32:03Z Fare: no module system, no hygienic macros
2014-05-11T00:32:07Z pjb: Fare: pathnames don't suck.  Implementations suck.
2014-05-11T00:32:15Z Fare: pjb: same difference?
2014-05-11T00:32:15Z pjb: Underspecification doesn't excuse implementations.
2014-05-11T00:32:27Z jebes: fare: hahaha, you forgot the seperation of functions and variables in namespaces. I was talking about Lisps in general
2014-05-11T00:33:03Z Fare: the lisp-2 aspect isn't bad as such, although apply and lambda are certainly cumbersome syntax
2014-05-11T00:33:05Z drmeister: jebes: Separation of functions and variables in two namespaces makes macro writing easier.
2014-05-11T00:33:44Z jebes: drmeister: how so?
2014-05-11T00:34:06Z jebes: CL does need continuations...
2014-05-11T00:34:14Z pjb: In any case, even if lisp was the worst programming language of the world, it would still be superior to all the other programming languages for a single reason: macros.
2014-05-11T00:34:44Z jebes: pjb: hahaha, true. Even though they were though of as an after thought :)
2014-05-11T00:35:35Z pjb: Indeed.  However, what enables lisp macros is the sexp discovery by Russell: one can write a usable implementations processing directly sexps (which are data) instead of parsing the M-expr syntax.
2014-05-11T00:35:55Z Fare: BabyBoo informs me that on LW/Win, #p"foo" is read with HOST = NIL even when *default-pathname-defaults* has "C" as host (also interesting that the drive letter counts as host and not device, which makes syntactic sense, though not semantic sense)
2014-05-11T00:36:15Z drmeister: Jebes: With two namespaces you have much less trouble with variable capture.  It's a point I picked up from the book "Let Over Lambda".
2014-05-11T00:36:19Z p_l: ... yeah, that's very wrong on windows
2014-05-11T00:36:40Z jebes: drmeister: how was Let over lambda? I've been meaning to dive into it but never got around to it.
2014-05-11T00:36:41Z p_l: pathname with "C" as host should translate to //C/<rest>
2014-05-11T00:37:06Z p_l: well, \\C\…, not that any reasonable Windows versions cares
2014-05-11T00:37:12Z drmeister: jebes: It's a great book - it opened a whole world to me of writing programs that write programs that write programs...
2014-05-11T00:37:55Z Chosen: brain is a program that writes programs. So lisp can be brain?
2014-05-11T00:38:23Z jebes: and onto my to buy list
2014-05-11T00:38:24Z Chosen: brain macro? or does it transform?
2014-05-11T00:38:36Z drmeister: Chosen: "Brain is brain", "program is program"  "stick is stick".
2014-05-11T00:38:40Z Bike: usually you would use an article, like "the", in that sentence
2014-05-11T00:38:41Z p_l: brain is what a very drunken semi-random process managed to wire up from crap
2014-05-11T00:38:42Z jebes: heh
2014-05-11T00:38:57Z jebes: p_l: HAHAH
2014-05-11T00:39:00Z Bike: so as not to sound like, i dunno, zardoz
2014-05-11T00:39:14Z drmeister: "Zardoz is zardoz"!
2014-05-11T00:39:23Z p_l: jebes: learning a bit of neurology provided me more arguments against "intelligent design" theory than anything else
2014-05-11T00:39:36Z Chosen: Brains can think so it is proof that atoms with electricity running through them can think. So lisp creator created lisp with brain macros?
2014-05-11T00:39:36Z Bike: p_l just isn't in touch with his cranial nerve zero
2014-05-11T00:39:39Z p_l: s/theory/hypothesis/
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2014-05-11T00:40:10Z Fare: what parse-namestring does when *d-p-d* has a non-nil HOST is completely implementation-dependent. Ain't that fun?
2014-05-11T00:40:14Z p_l: Bike: I'm so in touch that my GC rarely leaks, but MMU fails from time to time
2014-05-11T00:40:25Z jebes: chosen: no, isn't more of a thing that a significantly complex process can be faked for intellegence if anything.
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2014-05-11T00:40:39Z Bike: seriously though, badly understood neuroscience isn't on-topic
2014-05-11T00:40:47Z p_l: true
2014-05-11T00:40:54Z p_l: neither is philosophy of brain etc.
2014-05-11T00:41:02Z Fare: p_l: : is a standard lisp separator for host, so it kind of makes sense that c: means host c
2014-05-11T00:41:20Z Fare: I said "kind of"
2014-05-11T00:41:29Z p_l: Fare: except it's supposed to match actual OS' concept of host
2014-05-11T00:41:30Z Fare: nothing really makes sense with pathnames.
2014-05-11T00:41:37Z Chosen: i think that brains are made of atoms. So our atoms are thinking or something. Isn't that awesome? Why can't lisp have brain macros?
2014-05-11T00:41:46Z Bike: stop
2014-05-11T00:41:49Z jebes: in UNIX pathname makes sense
2014-05-11T00:41:54Z jebes: chosen: are you trolling right now?
2014-05-11T00:42:12Z p_l: Fare: as such, C is a device (actually, an alias, but nvm). '.' is the host of pathnames that refer to local machine
2014-05-11T00:42:15Z Fare: Chosen: our utterances here are brain macros
2014-05-11T00:42:17Z Chosen: no, we were talking about brains
2014-05-11T00:42:40Z Fare: p_l: good luck standardizing CL pathnames on Windows.
2014-05-11T00:43:03Z p_l: Fare: I think LW probably got that from some pre-NT code and then kept it for backward-compatibility...
2014-05-11T00:43:32Z p_l bets there's at least one client who has code from 3.11 Win32s application that uses full pathnames
2014-05-11T00:44:03Z p_l: and which depends on HOST being interpreted as device
2014-05-11T00:44:14Z p_l: the really fun stuff is mapping VERSION on windows
2014-05-11T00:44:36Z p_l: because the OS supports versioned files >_>
2014-05-11T00:45:27Z Fare: p_l: I have plenty of evidence that a lot of LW internals haven't been updated since MS-DOS 3 days.
2014-05-11T00:45:42Z Fare: command-line processing also seems to be it
2014-05-11T00:45:52Z Fare not-so-fondly remembers MS-DOS 2.11
2014-05-11T00:46:31Z p_l: pretty sure NT has equivalents of every field of CL pathname, although version part doesn't map to a pathname component in NT (but to a call with apropriate API)
2014-05-11T00:46:39Z Fare: Coming from the Apple ][, I remember my horror when I realized that you couldn't intermix DOS commands and the system programming language (MS BASIC in those days)
2014-05-11T00:47:03Z p_l: Did you have Cassette Basic? :)
2014-05-11T00:47:26Z drmeister: Which Common Lisp has the best PATHNAME implementation?
2014-05-11T00:47:32Z p_l: (because that's the only one that would count as "system programming language", though I think basica.exe was supplied on most MS DOS versions...)
2014-05-11T00:47:49Z Fare: My uncle had splurged and bought a COMPAQ portable with TWO, mind you, TWO double-density floppy disks
2014-05-11T00:48:03Z Fare: or maybe it was only one, and my dad bought a second one later.
2014-05-11T00:48:04Z p_l: drmeister: ... I'm thinking of betting on Symbolics
2014-05-11T00:48:21Z CrazyWoods: pjb: thank you
2014-05-11T00:48:34Z Fare: and then eventually... the 10MB (or was it 20?) hard disk!
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2014-05-11T00:48:48Z Fare: wow, SOOOO much memory
2014-05-11T00:49:00Z Fare: how could we ever fill that disk?
2014-05-11T00:49:06Z Chosen: is symbolics still alive?
2014-05-11T00:49:14Z drmeister: I'm not up on my Lisp history.   Is there a Symbolics Common Lisp?   I thought the Symbolics code is now subsumed into other Common Lisps.
2014-05-11T00:49:14Z Fare: Chosen, is Cthulhu still alive?
2014-05-11T00:49:17Z p_l: Chosen: on life support of some clients
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2014-05-11T00:49:44Z Fare: drmeister, not just one, but at least two!
2014-05-11T00:50:04Z p_l: drmeister: Symbolics code never "subsumed" into anything - it was proprietary implementation that also included Common Lisp. How much was possibly exported to other places, I have no idea
2014-05-11T00:50:42Z Fare: or maybe three
2014-05-11T00:51:01Z drmeister: p_l: I seem to recall seeing "Symbolics" in a lot of Common Lisp code that I read.
2014-05-11T00:51:06Z Fare: there's a Symbolics Common Lisp and an ANSI Common Lisp
2014-05-11T00:51:30Z Fare: and maybe a Future-Common-Lisp, though it might have been the same as ANSI Common Lisp just in a different namespace.
2014-05-11T00:51:54Z axion: in postmodern, how can i create a bunch of tables with the same schema, but different names? i am only familiar with creating tables from rpedefined classes. any help appreciated
2014-05-11T00:51:55Z p_l: drmeister: the thing is, Genera (Symbolics LispM's software), actually used all components of the pathname, thus my quip :)
2014-05-11T00:52:00Z Fare: Symbolics had "syntaxes" as in SYNTAX:::PACKAGE::SYMBOL
2014-05-11T00:52:24Z p_l: Fare: isn't that Symbolics' relative symbol scheme?
2014-05-11T00:52:38Z Fare: "relative"? No, it's fixed-depth.
2014-05-11T00:52:41Z p_l: IIRC, you could do PACKAGE::PACKAGE::…::SYMBOL
2014-05-11T00:52:54Z Fare: every package may have a name in every syntax, or some such
2014-05-11T00:53:00Z p_l: ahhh, didn't notice the triple colon
2014-05-11T00:53:07Z Fare: p_l: I don't remember any such feature
2014-05-11T00:53:08Z drmeister: Fare: What are SYNTAX:::PACKAGE::SYMBOL?
2014-05-11T00:53:26Z p_l: Fare: I found it in docs, but it didn't appear used much
2014-05-11T00:53:35Z Fare: drmeister, so that CL:LOOP is different whether in ANSI syntax or legacy symbolics syntax.
2014-05-11T00:53:50Z Fare: annoyingly, neither syntax has a full ANSI compliant LOOP
2014-05-11T00:54:06Z Fare: one doesn't do destructuring, the other one doesn't do vectors, or some such.
2014-05-11T00:54:31Z drmeister: So you would use (SYMBOLICS:::CL::LOOP ...)?
2014-05-11T00:54:34Z Chosen: i'm gonna go learn more lisp. back to reading gentle intro.
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2014-05-11T00:55:04Z Fare: drmeister: yes except I'd call it LISP:LOOP, since the package is visible as LISP in the ANSI syntax.
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2014-05-11T00:57:34Z drmeister: Oh - yeah.  I've been doing a LOT of C++ in the past couple of days.
2014-05-11T00:58:01Z drmeister: "::" ":" ":::"   So many colons... so many compiler errors...
2014-05-11T00:58:14Z drmeister: "compile errors"
2014-05-11T00:59:26Z Fare: drmeister, how is clasp coming along?
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2014-05-11T00:59:59Z drmeister: Fare: I'm working on moving garbage collection.   I hope to turn it on within hours and hopefully not days.
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2014-05-11T01:00:39Z Fare: drmeister, so you need to enforce stronger invariants than before?
2014-05-11T01:00:48Z Fare: wrt to tracking stuff.
2014-05-11T01:01:02Z drmeister: Fare: No.   I have a static analyzer that takes care of everything.
2014-05-11T01:01:03Z Fare: is that compatible with LLVM at all? Maybe with some stack-conservatism?
2014-05-11T01:01:04Z axion: dim, H4ns: got a minute?
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2014-05-11T01:01:17Z Fare: drmeister, can your static analyzer take care of temporary variables?
2014-05-11T01:01:47Z Fare: or temporary registers?
2014-05-11T01:02:13Z drmeister: Fare: Yes - it identifies temporary variables that would cause problems (those that create pointers on the heap) and tells me to set them up as roots while they are in scope.
2014-05-11T01:02:14Z Fare: or temporary stuff happening under the hood in LLVM's equivalent to SBCL's VOPs?
2014-05-11T01:02:29Z drmeister: What are VOPs?
2014-05-11T01:02:42Z jebes: can someone point me to the definition/documentation of VOP's, I can't find it anywhere
2014-05-11T01:03:01Z jebes: i kinda know what they are but the user manual or internals manuel of SBCL don't have a section on them that I can find
2014-05-11T01:03:01Z Fare: in SBCL, basically, the unit of stuff that gets expanded into a sequence of assembly instructions
2014-05-11T01:03:26Z Fare: these instructions might temporarily do ugly stuff to your pointers
2014-05-11T01:04:16Z nyef: The sbcl-internals cliki had some information, and the EncyCMUCLopedia should also have something.
2014-05-11T01:04:20Z drmeister: Fare: I don't know how VOPs relate to what I'm doing.      I'm using the Memory Pool System by Ravenbrook.   It copies precise references on the heap and pins ambiguous references from the stack.  It's a "mostly-copying garbage collector".
2014-05-11T01:04:44Z Fare: drmeister, I don't know LLVM well, but it probably has the equivalent of VOP at some level.
2014-05-11T01:05:26Z drmeister: Fare: I don't know VOPs so I can't say if or where the equivalences exist.
2014-05-11T01:06:29Z drmeister: All I know is what I'm doing and it's fiendishly complex and if I didn't have the Clang AST library exposed in Common Lisp my work would have died on the vine.
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2014-05-11T01:07:17Z p_l: LLVM has macroinstructions, iirc, which are roughly what VOP do
2014-05-11T01:07:54Z nyef: A VOP informs the compiler how to open-code some construct or other, such as a call to a particular function with certain types of arguments, or move a value between stack and registers or vice versa, or deal with various bits of non-local exit/entry normal call/return, and so on.
2014-05-11T01:08:14Z drmeister: p_l: Macroinstructions?  Do you mean the LLVM-IR?
2014-05-11T01:08:28Z Fare: drmeister, your youtube demo was pretty cool
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2014-05-11T01:09:29Z drmeister: Fare: Thanks!  Wait 'till you get your hands on the real thing - it's freaking awesome.
2014-05-11T01:09:50Z p_l: drmeister: no, there's a way to define "instructions" that result in callbacks to code that then returns LLVM-IR
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2014-05-11T01:09:59Z p_l: or so I recall from my few times with LLVM
2014-05-11T01:10:28Z drmeister: p_l: I don't know about macroinstructions in LLVM... must google...
2014-05-11T01:10:34Z p_l: so you can have higher-level code generator use those macroinstructions and lower-level passes can transform them
2014-05-11T01:11:02Z p_l: drmeister: mind you, I might be mistaken - it's been years that I looked at it
2014-05-11T01:11:50Z drmeister: p_l: I don't see anything that resembles what you describe - perhaps it was an old idea that was buried?
2014-05-11T01:12:16Z p_l: drmeister: I might have the wrong name, too
2014-05-11T01:12:34Z p_l: googling something with wrong name is hard :)
2014-05-11T01:13:31Z drmeister: p_l: If you do find a reference for what you are referring to - could you send me a memo?   I thought I had a good grasp of LLVM concepts. I'd hate to miss something important or valuable.
2014-05-11T01:14:15Z drmeister: I work with LLVM-IR instructions directly via the LLVM C++ library.
2014-05-11T01:14:39Z drmeister: I build Modules, add Functions, add BasicBlocks, add Instructions.
2014-05-11T01:15:18Z drmeister: That's another nice thing about Clasp - it's a great test bench for working with LLVM-IR.
2014-05-11T01:16:06Z meow271: if there a to iterate through two lists of identical size in a (loop for i in list1 for j in list2)
2014-05-11T01:16:12Z meow271: is there a way*?
2014-05-11T01:16:13Z p_l: drmeister: http://llvm.org/docs/ExtendingLLVM.html#intrinsic-function
2014-05-11T01:16:25Z stassats`: meow271: yes, it is the way
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2014-05-11T01:16:55Z meow271: stassats: so... its not a nested loop?
2014-05-11T01:17:15Z meow271: i guess i can figure that one on my own
2014-05-11T01:17:28Z p_l: drmeister: that's what I was thinking of
2014-05-11T01:17:33Z stassats`: do you see any nesting?
2014-05-11T01:17:58Z meow271: stassats: no, but im still new to this language. the loop syntax takes a bit to get used to
2014-05-11T01:18:25Z loke_erc: meow271: It's easy once you understand it.
2014-05-11T01:18:33Z stassats`: what isn't?
2014-05-11T01:18:47Z drmeister: p_l: Ok - I use those but I never thought to define new ones.
2014-05-11T01:18:50Z loke_erc: stassats`: Oracle PL/SQL
2014-05-11T01:19:00Z loke_erc: stassats`: PHP
2014-05-11T01:19:21Z stassats`: php is easier the less you understand it
2014-05-11T01:19:27Z meow271: lol
2014-05-11T01:19:28Z loke_erc: stassats`: Exactly :-)
2014-05-11T01:19:42Z p_l: loke_erc: I don't know whether I should abuse ability to kick or swipe strong alcohol from other students for the PL/SQL part ;>
2014-05-11T01:21:13Z p_l: (I'm already too desensitized to PHP...)
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2014-05-11T01:28:03Z drmeister: p_l: So "intrinsic functions" are like macros?  They return LLVM-IR?
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2014-05-11T01:35:03Z p_l: drmeister: from my understanding they are mostly callbacks, so you can introduce a complex function that interacts with LLVM to generate something apropriate
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2014-05-11T01:40:55Z drmeister: p_l: Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.
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2014-05-11T01:45:06Z drmeister: Fare: Regarding your original question - it shouldn't matter what the code does to my pointers.  Ambiguous pointers on the stack pin objects in memory.   Precise pointers on the heap are updated by an object scanning function that the Memory Pool System calls and that my static analyzer writes after it compiles the 165 C++ source files of my code into the Clang Abstract Syntax Tree.
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2014-05-11T01:46:27Z drmeister: The pointers that I'm talking about are managed by a template class smart_ptr<X> and I don't do anything weird with those pointers.    I guess that is my invariant: "Don't mess with smart_ptr<X>".
2014-05-11T01:48:55Z drmeister: What do people think of the following?     My smart_ptr<X> is a fat pointer.  It stores a X* pointer which may or may not be an interior pointer and it stores a second pointer to the base of the object in memory.
2014-05-11T01:49:01Z drmeister: So they are currently 128 bits wide.
2014-05-11T01:49:24Z drmeister: I'm using the bottom two bits to tag the pointers (for FIXNUM, CHARACTER and some other stuff).
2014-05-11T01:50:03Z drmeister: Idea: I was thinking of creating tagged CONSes.    I could represent an entire CONS within a fat pointer.
2014-05-11T01:51:05Z drmeister: Isn't this reminiscent of the old Lisp machines, or the original implementations of Lisp?   Didn't they pack an entire CONS into a pointer?
2014-05-11T01:51:40Z drmeister: Is it worth doing this or should I just use boxed CONSes?    I can set it up so I can switch back and forth and profile it.
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2014-05-11T02:37:23Z loke_erc: drmeister: How do you garbage collect?
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2014-05-11T02:41:32Z brucem: loke_erc: he uses MPS from Ravenbrook.
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2014-05-11T02:59:07Z drmeister: loke_erc: What brucem said.
2014-05-11T03:00:26Z loke_erc: What did he say? I lost connection. :-)
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2014-05-11T03:01:34Z nyef: clhs append
2014-05-11T03:01:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_append.htm
2014-05-11T03:02:03Z drmeister: loke_erc: I use MPS from Ravenbrook.
2014-05-11T03:02:05Z nyef: Okay, the last list is not copied, that's what I thought I remembered.
2014-05-11T03:03:24Z loke_erc: drmeister: I see.
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2014-05-11T05:12:00Z meow271: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142486
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2014-05-11T05:12:22Z meow271: how do i make the above link do what i want it to do? are for loop list iterations always protected?
2014-05-11T05:14:10Z Bike: i'm honestly not sure what you want to do
2014-05-11T05:16:45Z meow271: Bike: convert the contents of the list into nil
2014-05-11T05:17:36Z meow271: Bike: it would work if i iterated through the size of the list and used (setf (nth index) nil)
2014-05-11T05:19:13Z Bike: you could do it with loop as (loop for x on l do (setf (car x) nil))
2014-05-11T05:19:27Z Bike: or more sensibly with (make-list (length list)) or so
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2014-05-11T05:29:11Z meow271: Bike: for unique values the 2nd options would work, right?
2014-05-11T05:29:22Z meow271: Also: i thought car is non-destructive
2014-05-11T05:29:43Z Bike: i'm really not sure what you're asking
2014-05-11T05:30:02Z Bike: car is an accessor, there's a "getter" that doesn't destroy anything and a "setter" that does so, deliberately
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2014-05-11T05:35:24Z meow271: Bike: well, your advice does seem to work, I'd just like to know if you know if the performance is better compared to (loop for i from 0 to (length alist) STUFF)
2014-05-11T05:35:32Z meow271: do*
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2014-05-11T05:38:42Z Bike: i doubt you'll have a situation where it's a bottleneck, but that's what profiling's for
2014-05-11T05:38:46Z loke_erc: meow271: LENGTH will iterate over the list
2014-05-11T05:38:49Z phadthai: it depends on the implementation, but you could assume that using LENGTH and NTH might need to run though the list more often than iterating once through it using LOOP's IN or ON
2014-05-11T05:39:04Z phadthai: and indeed, you should profile where/when necessary
2014-05-11T05:39:15Z loke_erc: meow271: What you probably want is: (loop for x in alist for i from 0 STUFF)
2014-05-11T05:43:11Z meow271: loke_erc: as stated above, doing so doesn't let me directly alter the contents of a list, Bike's solution works however
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2014-05-11T09:27:03Z quazi: hey all im having trouble finding the answer to this; whats the recomended way to pass different arguments to the methods defined on a sinle generic
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2014-05-11T09:53:38Z BabyBoo: Hello, i am using function (write-to-file) but i want to write in a new line without the first is lost, how can i do this?
2014-05-11T09:54:24Z hitecnologys: BabyBoo: :if-exists :append, I guess.
2014-05-11T09:54:36Z BabyBoo: thanks, i ll check
2014-05-11T09:54:37Z hitecnologys: clhs white-to-file
2014-05-11T09:54:37Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for white-to-file.
2014-05-11T09:54:43Z hitecnologys: clhs write-to-file
2014-05-11T09:54:43Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for write-to-file.
2014-05-11T09:55:06Z BabyBoo: clhs with-open-file
2014-05-11T09:55:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm
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2014-05-11T09:56:18Z hitecnologys: Yeah, :append should work.
2014-05-11T09:57:27Z BabyBoo: Yes, it worked thank you! Now i am searching the newLine character.
2014-05-11T09:59:08Z jdz: BabyBoo: only one character? what about the systems where new line is two characters?
2014-05-11T09:59:19Z jdz: BabyBoo: but there is #\newline
2014-05-11T09:59:38Z jdz: BabyBoo: and #\linefeed and #\return
2014-05-11T10:01:20Z jdz: clhs 13.1.7
2014-05-11T10:01:20Z specbot: Character Names: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/13_ag.htm
2014-05-11T10:01:51Z BabyBoo: The character  ~% worked fine for me!
2014-05-11T10:02:10Z jdz: that's not exactly a character
2014-05-11T10:02:49Z BabyBoo: Yes, i expressed it wrong
2014-05-11T10:02:50Z axion: how can i make this run in the current package instead of common-lisp-user? http://paste.lisp.org/display/142489
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2014-05-11T10:03:59Z hitecnologys: axion: (let ((*package* ...)) ...) should work.
2014-05-11T10:04:36Z hitecnologys: axion: well, that's not exactly right solution but that's what I use.
2014-05-11T10:04:54Z axion: yeah that seems kind of hackish
2014-05-11T10:05:21Z hitecnologys: I don't think bordeaux-threads offers a way to specify package.
2014-05-11T10:06:27Z hitecnologys: There's this initial-bindings thing. You can use it to overwrite *package*.
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2014-05-11T10:07:54Z axion: hmm
2014-05-11T10:08:30Z hitecnologys: SBCL doesn't seem to provide any package specifier too so I guess it's the only way: bind *package*.
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2014-05-11T10:10:23Z axion: (bt:make-thread (lambda () (package-name *package*)) :initial-bindings (list (cons '*package* *package*)))
2014-05-11T10:10:26Z axion: that works
2014-05-11T10:10:30Z axion: seems ugly though
2014-05-11T10:11:15Z hitecnologys: Indeed.
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2014-05-11T10:12:41Z hitecnologys: Wrapping it in a function may help, but I'm sure there must me some other way of doing the same thing.
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2014-05-11T10:14:22Z axion: Ok thanks
2014-05-11T10:15:07Z axion: This is a problem moving my reusable code amount different projects to a generic stdlib system, so it's all going to be hidden anyway
2014-05-11T10:15:14Z axion: amoung*
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2014-05-11T10:19:13Z jdz: axion: why does your code in the thread care about current package?
2014-05-11T10:19:47Z JuanDaugherty: axion, why does it seem 'ugly'?
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2014-05-11T10:21:29Z JuanDaugherty fluffs axion's synapses.
2014-05-11T10:22:44Z BabyBoo: I have an array, called board, which have these elements #(M M M - L L L). Then i want to check if the elements are exactly these. Like (if (eq board '(M M M - L L L ) )) is this right?
2014-05-11T10:23:17Z axion: hehe, well it's a reusable function that accesses a data file relative to the current package's source directory
2014-05-11T10:23:27Z H4ns: BabyBoo: not at all.  experiment on the repl to see
2014-05-11T10:23:30Z axion: so it obtains the pathname from the package-name
2014-05-11T10:24:00Z ck_: H4ns: I'll probably be in Berlin on 2014-05-24, -25; on the off chance that you can think of something: is there anything interesting happening you could tell me about? I know about the 27th but can't stay longer than the weekend.
2014-05-11T10:24:11Z H4ns: BabyBoo: what does (eql #(l l) '(l l)) evaluate to?
2014-05-11T10:24:29Z H4ns: BabyBoo: then look at the documentation for eql, eq, equal and equalp
2014-05-11T10:24:50Z H4ns: ck_: i don't quite know what you'd find interesting, so what are you looking for?
2014-05-11T10:25:39Z H4ns: BabyBoo: don't /msg me for support, please.
2014-05-11T10:26:16Z jdz: axion: but you expect the "current package" to be something, without specifiying it for the thread?
2014-05-11T10:26:31Z ck_: H4ns: I'm looking for likeminded spirits. Any meetings maybe, gatherings, places where nice people come for coffee. If that's not too cloudy a description.
2014-05-11T10:26:51Z axion: jdz: I was simply asking for a way to bind the current package to the thread, which i received :)
2014-05-11T10:27:28Z jdz: axion: right. i thought that answer was not to your satisfaction (there's nothing "hackish" about it)
2014-05-11T10:27:44Z jdz: or ugly
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2014-05-11T10:27:55Z H4ns: ck_: it is too cloudy i fear :) -- there is the c-base if you're into blade runner style outfits
2014-05-11T10:28:02Z hitecnologys: Well, it looks kinda ugly to me.
2014-05-11T10:28:37Z H4ns: ck_: i frequent the st. oberholz, but i'd not claim that there are many like-minded people there.  but there are many people with laptops in that place.
2014-05-11T10:28:53Z ck_: yes, I noticed, macbooks especially
2014-05-11T10:29:21Z axion: what i meant was it seemed like there was a better solution than to wrap the thread creation in a let binding, then learned about initial-bindings, which is better, but seems long and thought it could be simplified. regardless, no harm as it will all be hidden away in a reusable library
2014-05-11T10:29:38Z ck_: well, I e-mailed one of the people I met at the lisp gathering when you and I talked too. That was the march one I think.
2014-05-11T10:31:07Z ck_: H4ns: thank you very much still. I'll memorize the c-base, but I don't own a clear plastic rain coad, probably wouldn't pass the voight-kampf (?) test and can't fold little origami unicorns
2014-05-11T10:31:23Z ck_: ".. but then again who can."
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2014-05-11T10:50:05Z capella-da-star: Hello guys!
2014-05-11T10:50:20Z BabyBoo: clhs with-open-file
2014-05-11T10:50:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm
2014-05-11T10:50:48Z capella-da-star: If someone wants to write a small AI to do some common trivial tasks in Lisp (common lisp). What should he do?
2014-05-11T10:51:44Z capella-da-star: Would really appreciate some advice.
2014-05-11T10:53:06Z hitecnologys: minion: tell capella-da-star about paip
2014-05-11T10:53:06Z minion: paip: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/paip
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2014-05-11T10:53:26Z dim: capella-da-star: a simple game, or a sudoku, or something
2014-05-11T10:53:38Z dim: capella-da-star: reversi our power of 4 would be a choice
2014-05-11T10:53:52Z dim: it's not really an AI, it's the alpha-beta algo, but still
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2014-05-11T10:54:03Z dim: sodoku involves backtracking, another kind of fun
2014-05-11T10:54:27Z dim: and then PAIP (I bought it, I'm yet to open the book someday) ;-)
2014-05-11T10:55:00Z capella-da-star: Yeah. That would be good. But I want to make something bigger and more intelligent.
2014-05-11T10:55:12Z capella-da-star: I wou
2014-05-11T10:55:32Z capella-da-star: * would love to read some existing AI code written in Lisp if possible.
2014-05-11T10:55:49Z JuanDaugherty: you could take a lisp expert system and apply it to some domain
2014-05-11T10:55:59Z ck_: capella-da-star: do you know about SHRDLU ?
2014-05-11T10:56:05Z JuanDaugherty: a number exist in open source, mostly old
2014-05-11T10:56:10Z capella-da-star: Would you recommend some good sources to read them?
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2014-05-11T10:56:52Z ck_: capella-da-star: I'm talking about the block-world-domain interpreter you could instruct like "a great-pyramid is something composed of a cube and a pyramid. build a great-pyramid"
2014-05-11T10:57:03Z JuanDaugherty: you might look at mcdyar [sic] looking up actual name ...
2014-05-11T10:57:08Z ck_: capella-da-star: as far as I know, the source is public domain now
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2014-05-11T10:58:03Z JuanDaugherty: (mcdypar) natural language understanding
2014-05-11T10:58:16Z capella-da-star: I couldn’t find the source code, ck_ would yo
2014-05-11T10:58:25Z capella-da-star: u be kind and point to the source?
2014-05-11T10:58:54Z JuanDaugherty: gotta do stuff urself
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2014-05-11T10:59:14Z ck_: I can't because I don't remember. have you looked at the AI archive? try jwz's blog, I know he has a link in his blog.
2014-05-11T10:59:28Z ck_: for example in the MOST-POSITIVE-BIGNUM posting
2014-05-11T11:00:44Z ck_: capella-da-star: reading again what you asked about .. "an AI to do some common trivial tasks in lisp" is not something I can really understand. What do you want to do?
2014-05-11T11:01:54Z capella-da-star: Okay, I want my AI to be able to do things I have to do in my daily life. Like finding good content in internet that I like. Configuring editors etc.
2014-05-11T11:02:30Z ck_: what is your experience in programming generally?
2014-05-11T11:02:38Z capella-da-star: I might sound naive and stupid, but I am just exploring the possiblities and I am really really into learning LISP.
2014-05-11T11:02:54Z capella-da-star: I am decent with C, python and JavaScript.
2014-05-11T11:03:27Z ck_: I don't know about stupid. But you sound like you've just finished a William Gibson book and want to do 'stuff like that' yourself. I think we are not quite at the wintermute level yet.
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2014-05-11T11:05:09Z capella-da-star: Okay, to be more clear. I am definitely not hoping to implement something like that in near future. But I want to learn LISP and do a side project with this idea. I am willing to spend time and effort for it.
2014-05-11T11:05:33Z ck_: hitecnologys tried to get the bot to tell you about the book "Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming". That is very good advice. You should get the book and work through it.
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2014-05-11T11:05:54Z ck_: Norvig has his code available at http://norvig.com/paip/
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2014-05-11T11:06:14Z ck_: Good Luck
2014-05-11T11:06:22Z capella-da-star: Thanks for the advice. :)
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2014-05-11T11:07:21Z capella-da-star: One small question though, The only LISP resource I have is SICP. Is that enough of a foundation to start LISP or should I read some other resource as well
2014-05-11T11:07:22Z capella-da-star: ?
2014-05-11T11:08:03Z ck_: sicp is about scheme, not common lisp
2014-05-11T11:08:16Z loke_erc: capella-da-star: I'd recommend Practical Common Lisp
2014-05-11T11:08:30Z eagleflo: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2014-05-11T11:08:31Z loke_erc: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2014-05-11T11:08:48Z capella-da-star: Yes, I know the dialect is different. But I thought the basics of LISP were same.
2014-05-11T11:08:55Z capella-da-star: Thanks for clearing that up.
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2014-05-11T11:09:11Z ck_: that is a matter of much depate you should steer clear off for now
2014-05-11T11:09:21Z ck_: debate*, what's wrong with my typing today? sigh.
2014-05-11T11:09:33Z loke_erc: capella-da-star: There are similarities, but Lisp and Scheme are about as different as... hmm... C++ and Java
2014-05-11T11:09:43Z capella-da-star: eagleflo and loke_erc . Thanks for the link. Really appreciate it.
2014-05-11T11:10:01Z JuanDaugherty: is "A Modern Approach" supposed to supersede PAIP?
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2014-05-11T11:10:05Z loke_erc: capella-da-star: Syntactical similarities, but fundamentally different languages.
2014-05-11T11:10:07Z capella-da-star: Ah, okay.
2014-05-11T11:11:08Z ck_: JuanDaugherty: I don't know! Also I didn't know it was available as an edX-course: http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/
2014-05-11T11:11:14Z ck_ makes a note
2014-05-11T11:11:51Z capella-da-star: Wao, you guys are awesome. :) I never hoped to find all these good resources myself. Thanks everyone.
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2014-05-11T11:12:19Z JuanDaugherty: now go spread the lisp gospel
2014-05-11T11:12:23Z loke_erc: capella-da-star: I don't know if anyone mentioned it, but if you want to write _real_ programs in Lisp, you should look up Quicklisp
2014-05-11T11:12:55Z loke_erc: capella-da-star: It's the package manager for CL (think "pip" for python). It's newer than the PCL book, so it's not mentioned there.
2014-05-11T11:12:55Z capella-da-star: loke_erc:  Please explain
2014-05-11T11:13:18Z capella-da-star: okay
2014-05-11T11:13:21Z loke_erc: capella-da-star: Basically, if you want, say, an XML library you issue a Quicklisp command and it will dwnload and install that library together with all the dependencies.
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2014-05-11T11:14:32Z capella-da-star: Okay, I got the analogy between it and pip.
2014-05-11T11:14:56Z loke_erc: capella-da-star: Anyway, doing real programming in CL is not fun without QL :-)
2014-05-11T11:15:03Z loke_erc: WIth QL, it's very very fun.
2014-05-11T11:15:22Z capella-da-star: Yeah, thanks. :)
2014-05-11T11:17:12Z capella-da-star: I created a fun logo for the AI project https://i.cloudup.com/7wvIvKHw8W-3000x3000.png . Will definitely share the project link here anytime I am able to write something decent
2014-05-11T11:17:13Z capella-da-star: :)
2014-05-11T11:17:13Z capella-da-star: https://i.cloudup.com/7wvIvKHw8W-3000x3000.png
2014-05-11T11:17:40Z stassats`: it looks more like "kill all the robots"
2014-05-11T11:18:17Z capella-da-star: haha. No It’s a robot inside the Ironman’s HUD
2014-05-11T11:19:32Z jebes: morning all
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2014-05-11T11:20:01Z loke_erc: capella-da-star: do realise that Lisp is not a magic AI tool. If you're unabel to write the program in, say, Python, you won't be able to do it in Lisp. Lisp is, after all, just a programming language and runtime environemnt. Mind you, it's an extremely _good_ programming language and runtime envrionment but any lisp programmer would be able to write his program in any language, although it may take 10 times as long and be a much less
2014-05-11T11:20:01Z loke_erc: pleasurable experience.
2014-05-11T11:20:30Z jebes: python has import skynet though...
2014-05-11T11:21:22Z capella-da-star: loke_erc: Yes, I understand that. But I want to do something interesting while learning LISP.
2014-05-11T11:21:36Z stassats`: first lesson, spell it Lisp
2014-05-11T11:22:43Z loke_erc: capella-da-star: That's fine. As long as you understand it. I'd hate it if you didn't experience Lisp because you were disappointed that it wasn't magic :-)
2014-05-11T11:24:00Z capella-da-star: Nope, I am inexerienced but not that naive. :P Any language old/new/obscure it only meant to serve as a mean.
2014-05-11T11:24:08Z capella-da-star: *is
2014-05-11T11:24:27Z stassats`: wrong, lisp is a cult
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2014-05-11T11:25:27Z Shinmera: Lisp underground
2014-05-11T11:25:30Z ck_: minion: chant
2014-05-11T11:25:30Z minion: MORE LIKE KILL
2014-05-11T11:25:52Z stassats`: minion didn't take that logo well
2014-05-11T11:25:52Z capella-da-star: Okay. This channel is very interesting. I like it here :)
2014-05-11T11:26:13Z JuanDaugherty: don't be deceived it can get nasty
2014-05-11T11:26:40Z JuanDaugherty: we're trynna suck you in right now
2014-05-11T11:26:46Z capella-da-star: Okay, that logo is just a first draft. Don’t take it too seriously. This is the first time I used photoshop ;)
2014-05-11T11:28:19Z hitecnologys: Woah, throw this phophothop thing away!
2014-05-11T11:28:27Z capella-da-star: I don’t want to appear like a fanboy, but would love to follow some of your LISP hackers on any OSS forum like Github/bitbucket etc. to read your code and learn good practises.
2014-05-11T11:28:36Z capella-da-star: *you
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2014-05-11T11:35:33Z ck_: We issue one (1) demerit for still writing Lisp in all caps.
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2014-05-11T11:36:31Z ck_: for still writing 'Lisp'*. But if your sources are all caps as well, that would mean a second demerit. There _are_ rules!
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2014-05-11T11:39:06Z JuanDaugherty: pfft
2014-05-11T11:39:08Z loke_erc: ck_: And placing closing parens on a line of its own: a hell of a lot of demerits
2014-05-11T11:39:38Z JuanDaugherty deplores parochial lang ghettos and their rules
2014-05-11T11:40:23Z ck_: I couldn't find how to denote sarcasm, so I left that as an excercise for the reader.. but if I need to say it: I was joking.
2014-05-11T11:41:28Z capella-da-star: Okay, point noted.
2014-05-11T11:41:57Z loke_erc: ck_: You may have been joking, but what you said was still true :-)
2014-05-11T11:42:11Z ck_: the best of both worlds.
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2014-05-11T12:08:22Z BabyBoo: (if (eq flag 0) (print "ok")) works great but when i dot (if (eq flag 0) <4 lines which works fine alose> ) doesnt work
2014-05-11T12:08:38Z BabyBoo: (if (eq flag 0) (print "ok")) works great but when i dot (if (eq flag 0) <4 lines which works fine> ) doesnt work
2014-05-11T12:08:41Z stassats`: correct
2014-05-11T12:08:55Z BabyBoo: correct? why?
2014-05-11T12:09:09Z H4ns: BabyBoo: why are you still using eq?
2014-05-11T12:09:15Z stassats`: that's how IF works
2014-05-11T12:09:18Z BabyBoo: this time eq is what i need
2014-05-11T12:09:31Z stassats`: no, eq is wrong here
2014-05-11T12:09:36Z BabyBoo: :S
2014-05-11T12:10:26Z hitecnologys: clhs =
2014-05-11T12:10:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq_sle.htm
2014-05-11T12:10:27Z H4ns: BabyBoo: in common lisp, nil is false and non-nil is true.  if your "flag" is a flag, then why do you put an integer into it?
2014-05-11T12:10:53Z BabyBoo: flag is a variable
2014-05-11T12:11:13Z H4ns: BabyBoo: yeah.  the name seems to indicate that it is a variable that contains some boolean value.
2014-05-11T12:11:24Z ggole likes zerop
2014-05-11T12:11:41Z BabyBoo: True
2014-05-11T12:11:42Z H4ns: zerop is awesome if one deals with quantities.
2014-05-11T12:11:56Z BabyBoo: But 20 minutes earlier the exact same code worked
2014-05-11T12:11:57Z BabyBoo: i dont know
2014-05-11T12:12:39Z BabyBoo: whats if's problem stassats`?
2014-05-11T12:12:58Z stassats`: if never works with four forms
2014-05-11T12:13:05Z hitecnologys: BabyBoo: I think you're using numbers in a wrong way. 0 and 1 both represent "true" in Lisp. You might want to switch to NIL and T and throw away your comparison operation.
2014-05-11T12:13:10Z BabyBoo: is there any way to fix this?
2014-05-11T12:13:17Z stassats`: use cond
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2014-05-11T12:13:23Z hitecnologys: Or PROGN.
2014-05-11T12:13:28Z ggole: Or when?
2014-05-11T12:13:31Z ggole: (If it fits.)
2014-05-11T12:13:36Z stassats`: just don't use progn
2014-05-11T12:13:40Z BabyBoo: hitecnologys: i need flag to take 3 values 0,1,3 so True False doesnt work for me
2014-05-11T12:13:49Z hitecnologys: BabyBoo: then use symbols.
2014-05-11T12:13:53Z BabyBoo: stassats` i am gonna search for cond thank you
2014-05-11T12:13:54Z hitecnologys: stassats`: why not?
2014-05-11T12:13:55Z stassats`: (case flag (0 ...) (1 ...))
2014-05-11T12:14:05Z stassats`: hitecnologys: because i say so
2014-05-11T12:14:18Z BabyBoo: stassats` where ... is the body?
2014-05-11T12:14:27Z H4ns: BabyBoo: in common lisp, it is common to use symbols instead of magic numbers to indicate states or enumerations.
2014-05-11T12:14:31Z hitecnologys: stassats`: ah, I see.
2014-05-11T12:14:31Z stassats`: where ... is whatever you want it to be
2014-05-11T12:14:41Z BabyBoo: thanks
2014-05-11T12:14:43Z H4ns: hitecnologys: progn: don't use it unless in macro expansions.
2014-05-11T12:14:47Z H4ns: hitecnologys: i say so, too.
2014-05-11T12:15:53Z BabyBoo: stassats` works great, thank you, thank you all
2014-05-11T12:16:02Z hitecnologys: H4ns: hmm, OK, never though of that.
2014-05-11T12:16:06Z BabyBoo: i will search for symbols also :)
2014-05-11T12:16:27Z nyef: There's nothing quite like seeing an error in the debugger "CASE FAILURE: 13 is not one of (0 1 2 3 5 7 9 12 14 16 17 19)" and wondering what's going on.
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2014-05-11T12:18:10Z jebes: and one can use ecase to match symbols instead of case, which is for numbers
2014-05-11T12:18:20Z stassats`: what?
2014-05-11T12:18:31Z jebes: case is to numbers as ecase is to symbols
2014-05-11T12:18:38Z H4ns: jebes: lolnope
2014-05-11T12:18:55Z hitecnologys: jebes: wrong.
2014-05-11T12:19:15Z hitecnologys: jebes: ECASE just throws errors sometimes.
2014-05-11T12:19:22Z jebes: oh... so it does
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2014-05-11T12:20:36Z jebes: case works with symbols anyways
2014-05-11T12:21:05Z BabyBoo: Whel, case it seem like it goes inside every case ony by one for me :S
2014-05-11T12:21:11Z jebes: oh..
2014-05-11T12:21:20Z H4ns: jebes: case works with any datatype, but it is useful only if eql can be used to compare the values.
2014-05-11T12:21:59Z ggole: It should take :test argument. :(
2014-05-11T12:22:06Z H4ns: jebes: as does ecase, fwiw
2014-05-11T12:22:33Z hitecnologys: ggole: SWITCH from alexandria does that.
2014-05-11T12:23:37Z ggole: Alexandria gets a lot right.
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2014-05-11T12:31:52Z jebes: is sbcl-internals.cliki.net down?
2014-05-11T12:32:42Z jebes: it isn't responding to pings
2014-05-11T12:32:46Z stassats`: yes
2014-05-11T12:32:52Z nyef: Yeah, it's been gone for a while.
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2014-05-11T12:36:33Z Krystof: jebes: is there anything in particular you're interested in?
2014-05-11T12:39:29Z jebes: still just VOP's
2014-05-11T12:40:05Z jebes: i'm interested in using sbcl's assembler/assemblet/whatever so I don't have to roll my own... I may just use the one movits implements...
2014-05-11T12:40:10Z jebes: movitz*
2014-05-11T12:40:48Z nyef: If you're just interested in abusing the assembler, and not in VOPs /per se/, I believe that pkhuong had a recent article in which he did exactly that.
2014-05-11T12:41:22Z jebes: where he implemented a VM for a forth dialect thing?
2014-05-11T12:41:28Z nyef: That'd be the one.
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2014-05-11T12:58:53Z BabyBoo: Any help with case statement?
2014-05-11T12:59:06Z BabyBoo: I setq flag 0
2014-05-11T12:59:29Z BabyBoo: And i want to check if its 0 to run some code, if its 1 run some else
2014-05-11T12:59:31Z BabyBoo: etv
2014-05-11T12:59:33Z BabyBoo: etc
2014-05-11T13:00:01Z stassats`: (case flag (0 run-some-code) ((1 2 3) run-some-other-code) (t fall-through))
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2014-05-11T13:01:42Z jebes: looks fine to me....
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2014-05-11T13:04:57Z jebes: oh, stasssats` wrote the code... oops.
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2014-05-11T13:13:21Z BabyBoo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142490
2014-05-11T13:13:25Z BabyBoo: why this doesnt work?
2014-05-11T13:13:37Z stassats`: holy indentation batman
2014-05-11T13:14:03Z stassats`: minion: advice on work?
2014-05-11T13:14:03Z minion: #11940: You said `It doesn't work'.  The next violation will be punished by death.
2014-05-11T13:14:09Z stassats`: minion: advice on working?
2014-05-11T13:14:09Z minion: #11941: Of course it doesn't work!  That's because you don't know what you are doing!
2014-05-11T13:14:21Z stassats`: minion: advice on working?
2014-05-11T13:14:22Z minion: #11952: In my experience that is a bad strategy, because the people who ask such questions are the ones who paste the answer into their program without understanding it and then complain that it `does not work'.
2014-05-11T13:14:44Z stassats`: not the ones i wanted
2014-05-11T13:15:45Z nyef: Might help to have the advice DB source bookmarked, and just use the advice number.
2014-05-11T13:16:03Z stassats`: i have it in the source tree
2014-05-11T13:16:18Z nyef: So call it by number?
2014-05-11T13:16:24Z BabyBoo: (defun menu ()
2014-05-11T13:16:24Z BabyBoo: (case flag
2014-05-11T13:16:24Z BabyBoo: (0
2014-05-11T13:16:24Z BabyBoo: (print "1")
2014-05-11T13:16:24Z BabyBoo: )
2014-05-11T13:16:24Z BabyBoo: (1
2014-05-11T13:16:24Z BabyBoo: (print "1"))
2014-05-11T13:16:25Z BabyBoo: (2 (print "3"))
2014-05-11T13:16:25Z BabyBoo: )
2014-05-11T13:16:26Z BabyBoo: )
2014-05-11T13:16:29Z stassats`: don't paste here!
2014-05-11T13:16:32Z BabyBoo: soooz
2014-05-11T13:16:40Z stassats`: minion: advice 11902
2014-05-11T13:16:40Z minion: You said it didn't work, but you didn't say what it would have done if it *had* worked.
2014-05-11T13:16:49Z BabyBoo: minion: paste
2014-05-11T13:16:49Z minion: paste: lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations
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2014-05-11T13:16:56Z BabyBoo: minion: advice on paste
2014-05-11T13:16:56Z minion: #11952: In my experience that is a bad strategy, because the people who ask such questions are the ones who paste the answer into their program without understanding it and then complain that it `does not work'.
2014-05-11T13:17:09Z nyef waits for the inevitable.
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2014-05-11T13:18:47Z jebes: >tfw just compiled sbcl and deleted it
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2014-05-11T13:19:06Z stassats`: that's how Buddhists do it
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2014-05-11T13:31:20Z BabyBoo: (if (equalp board '#(M M M - L L L)) (print "HELLO") (setq flag 2))  I have this if statements which prints HELLO even if board isnt equalp to '#(M M M - L L L)
2014-05-11T13:31:58Z pjb: BabyBoo: You know, it's not because (eq board '(M M M - L L L)) won't cut your arm off (as long as you don't put that in a robot's software), that you are forbidden to read the manual for the operator EQ.  Or any other of the 978 symbols in CL, even if they won't cut your arm off either.
2014-05-11T13:31:58Z BabyBoo: Can u spot the mistake?
2014-05-11T13:32:49Z pjb: BabyBoo: and for equalp, you should rather paste a real REPL log because it's just impossible.
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2014-05-11T13:33:33Z stassats`: BabyBoo: it can't print hello if it's not equalp
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2014-05-11T13:34:14Z BabyBoo: but when i check in the listener just the command (equalp board '#(M M M - L L L)) it returns NIL
2014-05-11T13:34:19Z pjb: You may try: (if (equalp board '#(M M M - L L L)) (print (list board "HELLO")) (setq flag 2))
2014-05-11T13:35:09Z theos: what happened the good ol' format?
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2014-05-11T13:35:31Z pjb: theos: while debugging print is nicer, since it returns its first argument.
2014-05-11T13:35:58Z theos: pjb i see
2014-05-11T13:36:13Z stassats`: BabyBoo: that means board has a different value
2014-05-11T13:36:17Z BabyBoo: pjb: still printing Hello while board isnt M M M - L L L
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2014-05-11T13:36:36Z pjb: Show us the REPL dribble!
2014-05-11T13:36:45Z theos: what is board btw?
2014-05-11T13:36:50Z BabyBoo: array
2014-05-11T13:36:55Z pjb: He won't say us.
2014-05-11T13:36:59Z pjb: He's just lying.
2014-05-11T13:37:00Z theos: >.>
2014-05-11T13:37:29Z pjb: eg. (print "HELLO") will never print Hello, but HELLO.
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2014-05-11T13:39:21Z BabyBoo: it seems like the problem is in the case statement. :/
2014-05-11T13:39:33Z pjb: For one thing, if you write:  (if (equalp board '#(M M M - L L L)) (print  board) (setq flag 2)) you are doing something wrong:
2014-05-11T13:39:53Z pjb: either you lack a (let ((board …)) …) or you lack a (defparameter  *board* …) …
2014-05-11T13:40:09Z pjb: at the REPL>
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2014-05-11T13:40:36Z BabyBoo: minion: case
2014-05-11T13:40:36Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``case''.
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2014-05-11T13:40:42Z pjb: clhs case
2014-05-11T13:40:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_case_.htm
2014-05-11T13:40:45Z stassats`: can't you just paste the damn code, with its output, and tell how the output is wrong and what it should it be?
2014-05-11T13:40:50Z pjb: clhs eql
2014-05-11T13:40:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_eql.htm
2014-05-11T13:40:52Z stassats`: how hard can that be?
2014-05-11T13:41:00Z theos: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_equalp.htm
2014-05-11T13:41:05Z pjb: minion: lisppaste
2014-05-11T13:41:06Z minion: lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations
2014-05-11T13:41:15Z pjb: theos: case uses eql.
2014-05-11T13:41:45Z theos: pjb he is using equalp
2014-05-11T13:41:57Z pjb: He's looking for case.
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2014-05-11T13:44:54Z theos: BabyBoo is the array you are comparing a subset of board?
2014-05-11T13:44:54Z BabyBoo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142491
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2014-05-11T13:45:23Z BabyBoo: its all the elements of the board i compaer
2014-05-11T13:45:51Z pjb: BabyBoo: as I said, you've made an horrible mistake: you didn't define any variable!
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2014-05-11T13:46:04Z stassats`: where's indentation?
2014-05-11T13:46:18Z pjb: So you can have dragons flying out of nose, which is exactly what you asked for and what you get.
2014-05-11T13:46:28Z pjb: BabyBoo: learn about defvar defparameter let let*.
2014-05-11T13:46:37Z stassats`: and board is not defined anywhere
2014-05-11T13:46:43Z BabyBoo: i cant paste all the code
2014-05-11T13:46:45Z BabyBoo: wait
2014-05-11T13:46:49Z theos: i think he omited board
2014-05-11T13:46:52Z stassats`: is it proprietary?
2014-05-11T13:47:06Z BabyBoo: (setq board (make-array 7))
2014-05-11T13:47:14Z pjb: and variables defined with defvar and defparameter must be named with stars like *flag*.
2014-05-11T13:47:15Z BabyBoo: Then i take input from a file
2014-05-11T13:47:21Z BabyBoo: LML MLM
2014-05-11T13:47:36Z theos: BabyBoo does board have this #(M M M - L L L) in it?
2014-05-11T13:47:39Z BabyBoo: but these stuff doesnt matter
2014-05-11T13:47:41Z pjb: A raw (setq board (make-array 7)) doesn't mean anything: it is not conforming code. Anything can happen there after!
2014-05-11T13:47:42Z BabyBoo: yes
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2014-05-11T13:48:11Z stassats`: good luck figuring it out, if you are not going to show the actual code, you are on your own
2014-05-11T13:48:21Z BabyBoo: but
2014-05-11T13:48:30Z BabyBoo: i think this is enough
2014-05-11T13:48:34Z BabyBoo: i showed u the problem
2014-05-11T13:48:42Z stassats`: not really
2014-05-11T13:48:45Z BabyBoo: It is either the if that always goes in
2014-05-11T13:48:47Z theos: BabyBoo did you use :fill-pointer ?
2014-05-11T13:48:54Z BabyBoo: Either the case statement that goes inside every case
2014-05-11T13:48:57Z BabyBoo: no
2014-05-11T13:49:34Z BabyBoo: do u want me to show u all the code?
2014-05-11T13:49:41Z theos: just board
2014-05-11T13:49:44Z BabyBoo: It has comments in my language
2014-05-11T13:49:52Z BabyBoo: 90 lines
2014-05-11T13:49:57Z stassats`: do you want to get help? then show the code
2014-05-11T13:50:07Z BabyBoo: i dont hide anything
2014-05-11T13:50:13Z BabyBoo: ok
2014-05-11T13:50:14Z BabyBoo: wait
2014-05-11T13:50:21Z theos: if the code is sensitive, just show what needs to be shown
2014-05-11T13:50:45Z BabyBoo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142492
2014-05-11T13:50:51Z BabyBoo: it isnt sensitive at all
2014-05-11T13:51:17Z jebes: why are you using if with only one clause
2014-05-11T13:51:28Z stassats`: BabyBoo: how can you see what's going on without indentation?
2014-05-11T13:51:34Z stassats`: this is just a wall of text
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2014-05-11T13:52:08Z theos: you dont need indentation to understand code. indentation does make it easier to read though
2014-05-11T13:53:38Z BabyBoo: is there any mistake in the case statement?
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2014-05-11T13:54:09Z stassats`: i don't know what it is supposed to do
2014-05-11T13:54:20Z theos: BabyBoo you can paste output too now :)
2014-05-11T13:54:30Z pjb: BabyBoo: you don't write a Common Lisp program.
2014-05-11T13:54:34Z BabyBoo: Well, i start with (start)
2014-05-11T13:54:42Z stassats`: BabyBoo: and don't create new pastes, annotate the existing one
2014-05-11T13:54:42Z BabyBoo: whick setsq flag to 0
2014-05-11T13:54:49Z BabyBoo: and calls (menu)
2014-05-11T13:55:00Z pjb: A toplevel (setq flag 1) doesn't mean anything without a defvar or defparameter.  And if you use defvar or defparameter, you should name it *flag* not flag.
2014-05-11T13:55:11Z BabyBoo: The menu ask the users to initiate the board
2014-05-11T13:55:22Z pjb: No it doesn't set flag to 0.  It is non conforming.  We don't know what it does.
2014-05-11T13:55:39Z pjb: You've not defined a variable, so if it has no variable to set what can it set?
2014-05-11T13:56:05Z stassats`: pjb: it's very well known what it does, even if it's wrong
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2014-05-11T13:56:20Z pjb: stassats`: you are wrong; different implementations do different things.
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2014-05-11T13:57:18Z BabyBoo: pjb: ok we understood u are lisp pro, but u dont let the discussion go on, every fking time... stassats` thanks for ur time, i am gonna experiment
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2014-05-11T13:57:47Z pjb: Why don't you just fucking write (defvar *flag* 0) and go on!?
2014-05-11T13:58:26Z theos: does the implementation really need asterisks?
2014-05-11T13:59:00Z nyef: No, the asterisks are for the principle of least surprise for the programmer, two weeks hence.
2014-05-11T13:59:11Z pjb: No it doesn't but it lets you avoid days debugging when you write (let ((flag 4)) …) in some function and it doesn't do what you expect anymore.
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2014-05-11T15:16:51Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2014-05-11T15:17:09Z jdz: hi there, beach!
2014-05-11T15:17:58Z beach: It looks like newbie day here on #lisp, judging from the logs.
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2014-05-11T15:26:45Z jebes: …afternoon, beach
2014-05-11T15:28:44Z JuanDaugherty: yello beach
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2014-05-11T15:29:18Z JuanDaugherty: without new blood living communities of mortal beings die off
2014-05-11T15:29:45Z beach: I didn't say it was necessarily bad.
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2014-05-11T15:30:27Z beach: Though I am always surprised how people ask for advice, and then refuse to follow advice they didn't ask for, such as indentation.
2014-05-11T15:30:33Z JuanDaugherty: with their high attrition rate it's especially true of programming lang communities, though lisp I think has a skewed age dist
2014-05-11T15:30:36Z jebes: oh, hey, the website generation code still works after my monster refactoring of the backend...
2014-05-11T15:31:28Z JuanDaugherty: yeah the indentation thing goes against my grain, and i'm not a newbie, but I conform
2014-05-11T15:32:01Z oGMo: read more code
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2014-05-11T15:32:11Z oGMo: lack of idiomatic indentation will quickly annoy
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2014-05-11T15:32:37Z JuanDaugherty: in some cases, others I might not
2014-05-11T15:33:00Z jebes: while on the subject of indentation: how do you guys use whitespace to seperate units of code?
2014-05-11T15:33:11Z stassats`: one line
2014-05-11T15:33:12Z oGMo: rarely
2014-05-11T15:33:21Z stassats`: between functions, that is
2014-05-11T15:33:41Z stassats`: inside functions, it's the empty-line free zone
2014-05-11T15:34:09Z oGMo: on very rare occasion within .. usually to split up blocks of GL calls or something, but even then, rare .. almost always unnecessary
2014-05-11T15:34:40Z oGMo: and just because blocks naturally indent "code paragraphs" already
2014-05-11T15:34:54Z beach: Yeah, and if it seems necessary, it is usually a sign that the function is too big and should be broken up into smaller ones.
2014-05-11T15:35:01Z oGMo: very probably
2014-05-11T15:35:51Z oGMo: though on rare occasion you get something like GL that spams a ton of similar things.. in theory you could even PROGN those, but eh
2014-05-11T15:36:02Z drmeister: Why is indentation even an issue?   Is it because they don't use emacs?  I switched to emacs 3 years ago after ~20 years of vi/vim for lisp indentation and *inferior-lisp*.
2014-05-11T15:36:33Z stassats`: even vim can indent
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2014-05-11T15:36:42Z jebes: most modern text editors can
2014-05-11T15:36:54Z jebes: although emacs does have a problem with indenting in macros...
2014-05-11T15:37:05Z oGMo: if your text editor can't, get another one
2014-05-11T15:37:17Z stassats`: maybe they write code with cat > file.lisp
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2014-05-11T15:37:29Z oGMo: jebes: you should either be using &body or you should use slime's configurable indent stuff, which is quite nice
2014-05-11T15:37:44Z drmeister: I can change my statement to the form of a question.   Does emacs do idiomatic Lisp indentation?    I know it has a problem with reader macros.
2014-05-11T15:38:11Z beach: It occasionally gets it wrong.
2014-05-11T15:38:16Z nyef: Emacs has trouble by default with macros, reader macros, quasiquote, and LOOP.
2014-05-11T15:38:22Z oGMo: and if only one could easily customize slime, it wouldn't even have a problem with that :P
2014-05-11T15:38:38Z nyef: Whenever I'm doing anything with quasiquote, emacs gets it wrong.
2014-05-11T15:38:47Z jebes: there was a slime update that really improved indentation for loop
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2014-05-11T15:40:02Z drmeister: I've been writing C++ for almost a decade and I just implemented my first assignment operator.  That says something about C++ but I don't know what.
2014-05-11T15:40:30Z jebes: drmeister: because you never needed to or because you couldn't figure it out?
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2014-05-11T15:40:57Z jebes: from context i'm assuming you never needed to
2014-05-11T15:41:12Z drmeister: jebes: I never needed to.    I needed to now because I had to implement a drop-in replacement for std::vector that will work with a moving garbage collector.
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2014-05-11T15:42:09Z drmeister: I guess it's not completely true.  My smart_ptr<X> type has an assignment constructor - but I stole that code from boost::smart_ptr and hacked it.
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2014-05-11T15:51:32Z drmeister: I'd love it if there were a better way for emacs to deal with reader macros.  I'd love to embed C++ code within a reader macro like #{{ #}} within Common Lisp and format the C++ properly.
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2014-05-11T15:52:10Z drmeister: Like M-x c++-mode within #{{ #}} and lisp-mode everywhere else.
2014-05-11T15:52:11Z jebes: how would you embed C++ code in common lisp?
2014-05-11T15:52:29Z jebes: or how would it integrate?
2014-05-11T15:53:02Z drmeister: I essentially have the clang C/C++/ObjC compiler embedded within my Common Lisp environment.
2014-05-11T15:53:24Z jebes: dang... how'd you manage that?
2014-05-11T15:53:37Z drmeister: *#magic#*
2014-05-11T15:53:42Z jebes: hahahaha
2014-05-11T15:54:03Z beach: drmeister: Doing that would require a more sophisticated incremental parser framework for Emacs.
2014-05-11T15:54:37Z drmeister: I'm implementing a new Common Lisp that interoperates with C++ and uses LLVM as the back end.   I exposed the Clang front end libraries within it and wrote a static analyzer to help be integrate moving garbage collection within the C++ code.
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2014-05-11T15:59:10Z erikc: i think i asked a year ago, but is it available for others to hack on/look at/try out
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2014-05-11T16:08:30Z drmeister: erikc: I think I said a year ago that it would be available in a few weeks.   :-)
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2014-05-11T16:08:40Z erikc: yes :)
2014-05-11T16:08:41Z drmeister: It's a little more work than I expected :-)
2014-05-11T16:09:31Z drmeister: Did you ever see the movie "The Money Pit" with Tom Hanks?    "Two weeks!"
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2014-05-11T16:15:45Z drmeister: I'm afraid that if I release it early that I will lock in some aspects of it or impede the development of aspects of it.   Like the garbage collector.   I've had a reference counting version running for about a year - but it doesn't clean up memory cycles.
2014-05-11T16:16:14Z puchacz: hi, anybody using cl-libxml2? it reports parse error to *inferior-lisp*, and I would like more control over it, e.g. crash on error or muffle errors
2014-05-11T16:16:16Z drmeister: Had I released it, people would have complained that it doesn't garbage collect properly and that it is slow - it is about 600x slower than SBCL.
2014-05-11T16:16:54Z puchacz: cl-libxml2 is used by cl-sanitize
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2014-05-11T16:17:19Z drmeister: So I spend six months integrating the Clang front-end, writing a static analyzer to help me incorporate the Memory Pool System mostly copying garbage collector and now when I release it it will be much more capable.
2014-05-11T16:17:45Z stassats`: compare it to sbcl on raspberry pi
2014-05-11T16:17:51Z drmeister: In the meantime, I don't have to deal with users complaining and making me feel bad about it's lousy GC and performance.
2014-05-11T16:18:14Z drmeister: "Your Common Lisp is bad and you should feel bad!"
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2014-05-11T16:18:53Z nyef: Heh. Reminds me of a message that one particular NES emulator would emit when the frame rate dropped too low. "YOU SUCK, MAKE IT FASTER!"
2014-05-11T16:19:10Z drmeister: Bleh, it's bad enough when I go onto ##C++ to ask questions and I have adolescent punks pummel me about RAII being so much better than garbage collection.
2014-05-11T16:19:39Z drmeister is a sensitive soul
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2014-05-11T16:23:05Z puchacz: I don't even know what RAII is
2014-05-11T16:23:26Z oleo: resource acquisition is initialisation
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2014-05-11T16:24:21Z puchacz: ah, so no complex shared structures then
2014-05-11T16:24:27Z puchacz: copy everything
2014-05-11T16:25:04Z stassats`: stack allocate everything
2014-05-11T16:26:28Z puchacz: ouch
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2014-05-11T16:26:46Z puchacz: as of cl-libxml2, hmm, am I the only one to use it?
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2014-05-11T16:28:24Z jdz: i used it a while ago
2014-05-11T16:28:47Z puchacz: jdz: do you know how to use switches to control behaviour on malformed html?
2014-05-11T16:29:16Z puchacz: it has defbitfield %xmlParserOption with some binary flags, 1, 2, 4, 8 etc.
2014-05-11T16:29:17Z jdz: puchacz: i don't think i've switched any switches
2014-05-11T16:29:51Z puchacz: what is currently the most up to date html parser that can handle HTML in the wild please?
2014-05-11T16:30:07Z leo2007: how to check if something appears at tail call position in a BODY?
2014-05-11T16:30:08Z puchacz: you know, with malformed structure, bad attributes etc.
2014-05-11T16:30:34Z jdz: puchacz: that's why i used cl-libxml2
2014-05-11T16:30:51Z puchacz: jdz: still the best then
2014-05-11T16:31:03Z Bike: leo2007: it's at the end, its result is the result of the function, there are no dynamic bindings around it, bla bla bla
2014-05-11T16:31:55Z puchacz: leo2007: they may have implemented tail check in SICP's interpreter, I am not sure and almost certainly Norvig implemented it in his Scheme interpreter. but Scheme is not CL
2014-05-11T16:34:19Z puchacz: hmmm, if cl-libxml2 writes to *inferior-lisp*, maybe I can intercept it?
2014-05-11T16:34:51Z Bike: probably it doesn't write to inferior-lisp directly, just some more standard stream that happens to end up as inferior-lisp
2014-05-11T16:35:27Z puchacz: Bike: how can I intercept it then pls?
2014-05-11T16:35:49Z jdz: i remember collecting cl-libxml2 error output
2014-05-11T16:36:04Z puchacz: jdz: that's what I am after, can you try to recall pls?
2014-05-11T16:36:29Z jdz: puchacz: i'll try to see if i have the code in the backup i have
2014-05-11T16:36:42Z puchacz: jdz: great, thx
2014-05-11T16:37:08Z puchacz: jdz: also, did you have any problems with cl-libxml2? it feels a little black-boxy. if something goes wrong, I am stuffed
2014-05-11T16:37:30Z jdz: puchacz: well, it's foreign code, what do you expect?
2014-05-11T16:37:31Z puchacz: e.g. shall I guard multithreaded access to it?
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2014-05-11T16:38:17Z puchacz: so is the whole OS, also foreign code. it is just that LInux feels more battle hardened :-)
2014-05-11T16:38:54Z jdz: puchacz: here's the relevant code i think: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142494
2014-05-11T16:39:01Z puchacz: jdz: thx
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2014-05-11T16:39:37Z jdz: puchacz: hopefully it will give you at least some starting points
2014-05-11T16:39:50Z puchacz: jdz: yup, thx
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2014-05-11T16:54:33Z slyrus: what's wrong with cxml and friends?
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2014-05-11T17:12:23Z CrazyWoods: pjb: hey
2014-05-11T17:12:43Z puchacz: slyrus: does it recover from things like <p><p></b>, ie malformedness? and html5 tags?
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2014-05-11T17:14:00Z puchacz: jdz: did you find switch-error-handling in sources or there is better docs somewhere than the one on homepage?
2014-05-11T17:14:08Z puchacz: jdz: talking about cl-libxml2
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2014-05-11T17:14:26Z jdz: puchacz: i'm pretty sure it was sources
2014-05-11T17:14:54Z puchacz: jdz it is not exported, so I would think so. you invoke it with ::
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2014-05-11T17:18:05Z puchacz: jdz: any traps about using this library you can recall please?
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2014-05-11T17:18:53Z jdz: puchacz: not really.
2014-05-11T17:18:59Z puchacz: jdz: ok, thanks
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2014-05-11T17:19:17Z puchacz: the only thing it comes to me is that I may need to wrap it in mutex
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2014-05-11T17:29:00Z pjb: CrazyWoods: ping.
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2014-05-11T17:33:33Z nightshade427_: puchacz, I'm using cxml to parse html5/html4 just fine
2014-05-11T17:33:54Z sytse: hmm.. does anyone know other implementations of a function that passes contiguous sequences matching a predicate through a function, like this: (nsubst-seq '+ 'integerp '(1 2 3 a b 4)) --> (6 a b 4) [destructive]
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2014-05-11T17:34:41Z jdz: sytse: you just destructively modified a constant
2014-05-11T17:34:50Z sytse: uh, yes. Whoops
2014-05-11T17:34:54Z sytse: which is of course not how I use it
2014-05-11T17:35:02Z jdz: sytse: also, i had such a function somewhere, but i think it was in clojure
2014-05-11T17:35:13Z puchacz: nightshade427_: html in the wild?
2014-05-11T17:35:16Z sytse: http://paste.lisp.org/+31Y7 has my preliminary CL implementation, but I can think of a pretty large number of other cases that could be handled and aren't by this
2014-05-11T17:35:17Z puchacz: as found on the internet?
2014-05-11T17:35:43Z nightshade427_: yes, at my work we do a learning translation proxy system
2014-05-11T17:36:25Z puchacz: ok, I will keep it in mind, thx
2014-05-11T17:36:49Z nightshade427_: you sign up, give it your site, we'll proxy it, and allow visitors to see it any language they want that we support, you can make corrections and it learns and adapts.
2014-05-11T17:37:28Z nightshade427_: cxml works well so far :)
2014-05-11T17:37:50Z puchacz: pure lisp, isnt it?
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2014-05-11T17:38:11Z nightshade427_: yep, I believe so
2014-05-11T17:38:24Z sytse: (btw, that loop thing is not correctly indented by slime-cl-indent.el.. meh.)
2014-05-11T17:38:46Z sytse: -- slime-cl-indent.el doesn't seem to handle the 'end' keyword there
2014-05-11T17:38:59Z nightshade427_: we have a 10ms overhead for most sites, that includes db and machine learning on top for translation
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2014-05-11T17:39:36Z nightshade427_: so is plenty fast for our needs
2014-05-11T17:39:45Z pjb: sytse: I would do: (mapcan (lambda (x) (if (integerp (first x)) (list (reduce '+ x)) x)) (nsplit-list-on-indicator (list 1 2 3 'a 4 5 'b 'c 6 7) (lambda (a b) (eq (not (not (integerp a))) (not (integerp b))))))
2014-05-11T17:39:46Z puchacz: that's excellent resutl
2014-05-11T17:40:02Z pjb: sytse: but really, what one would want, is a partial evaluator, to reduce this expression into your code.
2014-05-11T17:41:13Z sytse: ever seen anything like that somewhat generically somewhere?
2014-05-11T17:41:43Z pjb: sytse: so 1- split up the functionality. 2- generalize each part separately.
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2014-05-11T17:42:02Z pjb: Notice that my nsplit-list-on-indicator works only on list, not on sequence.
2014-05-11T17:42:11Z pjb: For vectors, we could return a list of displaced vectors.
2014-05-11T17:43:05Z sytse: would be a bit silly to try to generalize this beyond list though, because it can't be done efficiently in-place in say, vector
2014-05-11T17:43:38Z sytse: uh, that's of course not true
2014-05-11T17:43:46Z sytse: but the algorithm would be entirely different
2014-05-11T17:44:01Z sytse: and a copy of (almost) the entire vector would be necessary
2014-05-11T17:44:10Z pjb: Not with displaced vectors.
2014-05-11T17:44:16Z sytse: ah yes.
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2014-05-11T17:45:12Z pjb: See for example replace-subseq
2014-05-11T17:45:29Z pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence:replace-subseq
2014-05-11T17:45:30Z sytse: ah well. All beyond my current use case (my current use case is elisp, even.. with a loop-less version)
2014-05-11T17:46:03Z pjb: there's a loop in elisp (require 'cl) only with symbols instead of keywords.
2014-05-11T17:46:55Z sytse: I know. But I didn't use it
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2014-05-11T17:47:56Z sytse: (while (prog1 cur [...]) (setq cur (cdr cur))) works as well
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2014-05-11T18:16:22Z sytse: hm, that nsubst-seq that I made is still pretty silly, it can just reuse the first cons instead of creating a new one. Not a single cons required: http://paste.lisp.org/+31Y8
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2014-05-11T19:01:34Z meow271: is there a function that counts how many operations a given function did?
2014-05-11T19:03:04Z stassats`: no
2014-05-11T19:03:09Z pjb: Nope.  But you could easily write one.
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2014-05-11T19:14:48Z meow271: pjb: could you give me a hint how to do that?
2014-05-11T19:16:00Z pjb: using and patching com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp.stepper.
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2014-05-11T19:19:08Z pjb: Or if you want to do it statically, by using a normal code walker.
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2014-05-11T19:22:03Z meow271: pjb: that link didnt work...
2014-05-11T19:22:16Z pjb: Did I write any link?
2014-05-11T19:22:43Z meow271: pjb: no, but apparnetly i am not very smart
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2014-05-11T19:24:29Z pjb: Do you need a link?
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2014-05-11T19:41:37Z meow271: pjb: no its cool, thanks
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2014-05-11T19:53:11Z meow271: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142501 How can i make collect ignore something?
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2014-05-11T19:53:42Z pjb: (loop for i in '(1 2 3 4 5) unless (oddp i) collect i) --> (2 4)
2014-05-11T19:54:39Z pjb: loop, you don't need anything else in lisp: (loop repeat 1 if (= a 1) do (print 'one) else do (print 'none))
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2014-05-11T19:57:37Z meow271: pjb: cool, thanks!
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2014-05-11T21:12:33Z meow271: can i issue function right after an unless?
2014-05-11T21:12:55Z meow271: like an if statement
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2014-05-11T22:06:51Z jdz: meow271: right after, or inside?
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2014-05-11T22:07:12Z meow271: jdz: inside
2014-05-11T22:07:13Z jdz: meow271: and it's not a statement
2014-05-11T22:07:22Z jdz: clhs unless
2014-05-11T22:07:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_when_.htm
2014-05-11T22:07:25Z meow271: if function*
2014-05-11T22:07:30Z jdz: it's not a function
2014-05-11T22:07:50Z meow271: i uhhhh macro?
2014-05-11T22:08:04Z jdz: click the link, learn stuff!
2014-05-11T22:08:09Z jdz: profit
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2014-05-11T22:08:27Z meow271: that link is actually why i asked the question oddly enough
2014-05-11T22:08:28Z meow271: ok form
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2014-05-11T22:09:04Z jdz: meow271: you can't even figure out the answer to your question by looking at the examples?
2014-05-11T22:09:15Z jdz: meow271: i don't understand your question, then
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2014-05-11T22:12:06Z p_l: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lispworks.example.othellodemo <--- ho hum
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2014-05-11T22:12:54Z jdz: p_l: yes, lispworks on ARM
2014-05-11T22:13:19Z jdz: p_l: you have to write the GUI stuff in whatever the platform provides, though
2014-05-11T22:14:16Z p_l: jdz: if it exports a shared object and lets me call out and call in anything that C would, there's no problem :3
2014-05-11T22:14:35Z jdz: p_l: that's supposedly exactly what it does
2014-05-11T22:14:52Z meow271: jdz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142504 this isnt working
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2014-05-11T22:14:56Z meow271: rather not compiling
2014-05-11T22:15:11Z meow271: i dont know what i did wrong based on the example in the link
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2014-05-11T22:15:25Z jdz: meow271: that's LOOP,
2014-05-11T22:15:40Z jdz: meow271: and your parenthesis are wrong
2014-05-11T22:16:08Z jdz: meow271: i'd suggest you stay away from LOOP to become less confused first
2014-05-11T22:16:20Z Bike: meow271: unless [condition] do [code], you missed the do.
2014-05-11T22:16:44Z jdz: Bike: that's the least of his problems
2014-05-11T22:17:37Z jdz: meow271: this looks like a homework. and i have to bed, anyway.
2014-05-11T22:18:30Z meow271: jdz: np
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2014-05-11T22:18:57Z meow271: jdz: also i dont have a problem making the function work, i just wanna try making it cleaner
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2014-05-11T22:19:21Z Bike: well, jdz is right for one, parens aren't written like that stylistically speaking
2014-05-11T22:19:54Z meow271: Bike: it help me understand what's going on though. the indentation doesn't cut it for me :<
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2014-05-11T22:31:21Z motersen: Is anyone familiar with perl-in-lisp ?
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2014-05-11T23:08:54Z CrazyWoods: Are there someone here ever using GNUSTEP?
2014-05-11T23:10:06Z nyef: Didn't you ask that yesterday at about this time?
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2014-05-11T23:10:50Z drmeister: Is there a FORMAT operation that lets you stick arbitrary code into the control string?
2014-05-11T23:11:09Z Xach: drmeister: arbitrary format control code?
2014-05-11T23:11:27Z drmeister: Xach: What is the character for that one?
2014-05-11T23:11:31Z CrazyWoods: nyef: :)
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2014-05-11T23:12:14Z Xach: drmeister: ~{~} and ~? are kind of like that
2014-05-11T23:12:30Z Bike: and / lets you call functions
2014-05-11T23:14:05Z drmeister: "/"   if I have a beef with the CLHS it is that it doesn't list all of the FORMAT directives in one page.
2014-05-11T23:14:48Z Bike: clhs ~/
2014-05-11T23:14:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ced.htm
2014-05-11T23:15:02Z drmeister: Bike: Thanks - I'm reading that.
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2014-05-11T23:26:32Z pjb:  CrazyWoods: I use GNUstep (from time to time).
2014-05-11T23:26:53Z pjb: CrazyWoods: so the answer to your question is YES.
2014-05-11T23:30:24Z CrazyWoods: pjb: what about the cross platform?
2014-05-11T23:30:52Z pjb: We discussed that yesterday. Check the logs.  I'm going to sleep. Have a good night reading the logs.
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2014-05-12T02:29:05Z solidus_: good morning :)
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2014-05-12T02:30:03Z solidus_: trying to return a lambda, came up with silly problem: (defun foo (x) (lambda (y) (= x y))) returns a COMPILED-LEXICAL-CLOSURE but i can't use it as a regular function
2014-05-12T02:30:24Z solidus_: need to use funcall, how can i return just a function object that i can call directly?
2014-05-12T02:31:05Z DataLinkDroid: solidus_: assign the function value of a symbol and use the symbol?
2014-05-12T02:31:11Z Zhivago: (let ((x #'+)) (funcall x 1 2))
2014-05-12T02:31:54Z Zhivago: (funcall (funcall (lambda () #'x)) 1 2) ; is a better fit, I guess.
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2014-05-12T02:36:20Z solidus_: okay i get it, there is no way without using #' expilictly somewhere - either in a let form or directly when trying to use the closure
2014-05-12T02:36:46Z ipmonger: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142506 —> when I call this (graph->pdf “wizard.dot” *nodes* *edges*) through slime it fails with a backtrace - but when I call it from a non-slime REPL, it works fine.  Can anyone tell me why?
2014-05-12T02:37:01Z |3b|: no, you use (the equivalent of) #' implicitly when you evaluate the LAMBDA macro
2014-05-12T02:37:54Z |3b|: if you have a function object (from LAMBDA or FUNCTION or wherever) you call it with FUNCALL or APPLY
2014-05-12T02:40:06Z solidus_: thanks :)
2014-05-12T02:40:45Z |3b|: ipmonger: are you sure that is the correct use of EXT:SYSTEM for the lisp you are using? (I'm guessing it is from LoL, which uses CLisp if i remember correctly)
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2014-05-12T02:41:40Z ipmonger: |3b|: yes.  I’m using ECL and it works fine from the command line -just not through slime
2014-05-12T02:42:50Z |3b|: working fine in one case and not another doesn't seem to be evidence of correct usage
2014-05-12T02:44:23Z |3b|: though i don't see anything in the ecl docs saying it is wrong either
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2014-05-12T02:47:32Z |3b|: see http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/slime-devel/2013-February/018768.html for a workaround
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2014-05-12T02:52:53Z ipmonger: thanks
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2014-05-12T03:05:20Z drmeiste_: Is there any way to pretty-print an expression like this: #S(GCCONTAINER :KEY "gctools::GCVector<class mem::smart_ptr<class core::Package_O>,class gctools::GCAlloc_malloc<class gctools::GCVector_impl<class mem::smart_ptr<class core::Package_O> > >>" :NAME "gctools::GCVector" :BASES ("gctools::GCContainer") :VBASES CL:NIL :HAS-DESTRUCTOR CL:NIL :DECL-TYPE #S(CLASS-TEMPLATE-SPECIALIZATION-CTYPE :KEY "gctools::GCVect
2014-05-12T03:05:20Z drmeiste_: or<class mem::smart_ptr<class core::Package_O>,class gctools::GCAlloc_malloc<class gctools::GCVector_impl<class mem::smart_ptr<class core::Package_O> > >>" :ARGUMENTS (#S(GC-TEMPLATE-ARGUMENT :CL:INDEX 0 :CTYPE #S(SMART-PTR-CTYPE :KEY "mem::smart_ptr<class core::Package_O>" :SPECIALIZER "class core::Package_O")) #S(GC-TEMPLATE-ARGUMENT :CL:INDEX 1 :CTYPE #S(CLASS-TEMPLATE-SPECIALIZATION-CTYPE :KEY "gctools::GCAllo
2014-05-12T03:05:20Z drmeiste_: c_malloc<class gctools::GCVector_impl<class mem::smart_ptr<class core::Package_O> >>" :ARGUMENTS (#S(GC-TEMPLATE-ARGUMENT :CL:INDEX 0 :CTYPE #S(CLASS-TEMPLATE-SPECIALIZATION-CTYPE :KEY "gctools::GCVector_impl<class mem::smart_ptr<class core::Package_O>>" :ARGUMENTS (#S(GC-TEMPLATE-ARGUMENT :CL:INDEX 0 :CTYPE #S(SMART-PTR-CTYPE :KEY "mem::smart_ptr<class core::Package_O>" :SPECIALIZER "class core::Package_O")))))))
2014-05-12T03:05:22Z drmeiste_: ))))
2014-05-12T03:05:34Z drmeiste_: Oh cr*p - sorry.   I didn't mean to dump that.
2014-05-12T03:06:15Z drmeiste_: It's a Common Lisp structure expression - my pretty-printer still doesn't work and I'm going blind reading things like this.
2014-05-12T03:06:51Z drmeiste_: I'd like to load it into SBCL and pretty print it somehow but the structures don't exist in SBCL.
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2014-05-12T03:08:46Z Bike: drmeister: you could define a print-object method on it?
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2014-05-12T03:11:37Z drmeister: Hmmm,  good idea.  I haven't done that before.   Do nested structures get indented with print-object methods?
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2014-05-12T03:12:16Z drmeister: I'll find out.
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2014-05-12T03:17:23Z Bike: drmeister: it's uh, complicated.
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2014-05-12T03:36:51Z drmeister: Complicated?  Why I do several complicated things every day before breakfast.
2014-05-12T03:37:02Z drmeister: "Why, I do..."
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2014-05-12T04:00:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-05-12T04:00:45Z p_l: bonjour
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2014-05-12T04:25:36Z beach: I know this is off topic, but it is quiet so...
2014-05-12T04:25:58Z beach: How is a trap handled on x86(-64) Linux?
2014-05-12T04:26:05Z beach: Specifically, how costly can it be?
2014-05-12T04:26:14Z pillton: Morning beach.
2014-05-12T04:26:19Z beach: Hi pillton.
2014-05-12T04:27:12Z p_l: beach: define "trap"
2014-05-12T04:27:16Z p_l: there are different ones to consider
2014-05-12T04:27:22Z beach: Ah!
2014-05-12T04:27:28Z beach: OK, let's say a memory fault.
2014-05-12T04:27:30Z p_l: I can't help anything about debugging traps
2014-05-12T04:27:58Z beach: Attempt to access a page that does not exist pysically.
2014-05-12T04:28:09Z beach: *physically.
2014-05-12T04:28:19Z Bike: well, i know there's that one article about how memory faults are expensive enough that they make O() analysis irrelevant
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2014-05-12T04:29:56Z H4ns: beach: i think it would help if you'd qualify your question with respect to "how" a bit
2014-05-12T04:30:16Z beach: OK, here goes...
2014-05-12T04:30:21Z p_l: beach: after MMU decides that a) page was unmapped b) protection bits didn't allow for the access required, the system jumps to kernel trap handler (so you have a context switch), which then involves its own logic (can be complex, depending on case - for example, it might involve reading a page in and mapping it), then depending on results of that you have either a context switch to continue the program or a context switch with jump to signal handler ...
2014-05-12T04:30:27Z p_l: ... (SIGSEGV, *eventually* SIGBUS depending on case)
2014-05-12T04:31:28Z beach: p_l: Thanks.  So that can be fairly expensive I guess.
2014-05-12T04:32:16Z beach: H4ns: I am reading an article about a new GC technique that uses memory faults to protect pages that have not been filled yet.  I am trying to get an idea of how expensive that would be.
2014-05-12T04:32:57Z H4ns: beach: that is a common thing to do i think.  handling the fault in the first place is not too expensive for that, in particular considering the alternatives.
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2014-05-12T04:33:46Z p_l: beach: AFAIK the current state of the art is to use a mix of inlined checks and page faults, the latter often forming synchronization points for the GC
2014-05-12T04:33:54Z H4ns: beach: a context switch to kernel mode and back (to call the user's handler) is involved, but that is something which happens very frequently.  you don't want that in your inner loop, but other than that, it is a highly optimized execution path.
2014-05-12T04:34:04Z p_l: but Azul's material might be useful
2014-05-12T04:34:31Z p_l: though I think Azul guys use some magic with EPT extensions
2014-05-12T04:35:15Z beach: OK, thanks.  I think I have enough information to search further and read.
2014-05-12T04:37:05Z p_l: beach: the fastest case is, I think, when you ensure that a page exists, is allocated, but the page fault was caused by access protections (because that will just jump into SIGSEGV handler after rather quick, optimized routine)
2014-05-12T04:38:02Z beach: Yes, I see.  I think what I'll do is write a small test in C.
2014-05-12T04:38:15Z p_l: so... mmap(), zero-fill the page, mprotect() it... the zero fill might backfire on some cases (but it goes into rather esoteric timings, I think)
2014-05-12T04:39:54Z beach: At the moment, I am only interested in the time it takes from the attempt to access a page that does not have memory associated with it, until the signal handler returns.
2014-05-12T04:41:12Z p_l: beach: you might want to pin the process to cpu before running the tests, depending on the system
2014-05-12T04:41:39Z beach: p_l: Good advice!  Thanks!
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2014-05-12T05:01:32Z drmeister: beach: Are you implementing a new GC?   For which CL?
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2014-05-12T05:24:29Z beach: Sorry, computer crashed! :(
2014-05-12T05:24:43Z beach: drmeister: Right now I am just writing a paper:
2014-05-12T05:25:11Z beach: http://metamodular.com/sliding-gc.pdf
2014-05-12T05:25:33Z beach: drmeister: I am working on a new implementation called SICL, which will need a GC.
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2014-05-12T05:26:12Z beach: drmeister: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
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2014-05-12T08:10:42Z joe-w-bimedina: does anyone here know cffi
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2014-05-12T08:12:01Z splittist: joe-w-bimedina: it's usually better to ask your question, than to ask whether you can ask your question. You might pique someone's curiosity with real lisp content.
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2014-05-12T08:22:35Z InvalidCo: what are #0-#9 used for?
2014-05-12T08:22:51Z InvalidCo: the specs seem to say "used for infix arguments"
2014-05-12T08:23:26Z InvalidCo: but I was under the impression CL has no infix functionality built-in?
2014-05-12T08:24:07Z InvalidCo: nm, just found it
2014-05-12T08:25:52Z pjb:  : and @ are also optional argument to the dispatching reader macros.
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2014-05-12T08:27:22Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: yes, anyone here knows cffi.
2014-05-12T08:27:52Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec...formulating my ?...thank you btw
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2014-05-12T08:31:54Z joe-w-bimedina: I am wrapping C++ vector class in Lisp using CFFI. And I would like to know how to have my CFFI wrapper output a muttiple value list of a  pointer to a  C++ vector<uchar> for example the same vector data in a lisp vector.I basically have 2 C wrappers for the C++ vector class that I wrap in Lisp. One that converts a C array, which CFFI can make, into a vector<uchar> for instance and one that will convert that vector<uchar> back to a C array.
2014-05-12T08:31:54Z joe-w-bimedina:  I have translate-into-foreign and translate-from-foreign functions defined for those 2 Lisp wrappers btw, mainly to use TG finalizers but they can be expanded.  I would like to have the lisp wrapper that creates the vector<uchar> output a multiple value list that I can cdr/car and either get a C++ vector<int> return or a Lisp vector return. To get to the point I would like to know how to convert a C++ vector to a lisp vector the fastest wa
2014-05-12T08:31:55Z joe-w-bimedina: y possible to make this work.  What I have come up with so far is 1.5 seconds slower per million iterations than just returning a vector<int>
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2014-05-12T08:33:53Z jdz: joe-w-bimedina: did you ask a question?
2014-05-12T08:34:18Z joe-w-bimedina: is that a joke because it is long?:)
2014-05-12T08:35:00Z jdz: long, hard to see what exactly you're doing, and what exactly is the problem, and there is no questionmark
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2014-05-12T08:36:05Z splittist: "I would like to know how to convert a C++ vector to a lisp vector the fastest way possible to make this work." It's not clear to me what the "this" in "this work" is.
2014-05-12T08:36:32Z jdz: joe-w-bimedina: and even then, i'd suggest you look at  http://www.nicklevine.org/claude/
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2014-05-12T08:37:18Z joe-w-bimedina: In a nutshell I'm trying to figure out how to convert a C++ vector to a Lisp vector the fastest way possible..in my question I was trying to outline what I have implemented so far.
2014-05-12T08:37:33Z jdz: joe-w-bimedina: or nvm, i think that's completely not helpful
2014-05-12T08:37:55Z joe-w-bimedina: by make this work I mean be super fast
2014-05-12T08:37:57Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: are you talking about specific c++ and lisp vectors, or about the general case?
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2014-05-12T08:38:26Z joe-w-bimedina: I have C wrappers for the C++ vector class...I can post in a gist
2014-05-12T08:38:30Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: if you want it to be super fast, you need to share the underlying representation between the lisp and c++, which i think is only possible in implementation specific ways.
2014-05-12T08:38:40Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: no thank you.  you'll have to engineer this yourself.
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2014-05-12T08:39:40Z joe-w-bimedina: any other takers...I can provide necessary data quickly
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2014-05-12T08:40:09Z xificurC: two hours until I found I wrote :accessor :name instead of :accessor name
2014-05-12T08:40:26Z H4ns: xificurC: don't worry, you'll keep making that mistake :)
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2014-05-12T08:40:53Z xificurC: H4ns: of course I checked everything, all code, hyperspec, books
2014-05-12T08:41:29Z H4ns: xificurC: it is one of the most annoying kinds of typos that one can make.  i hate it when i do it, too :)
2014-05-12T08:41:37Z dim: glad to see I'm not alone on the :accessor :name thing ;-)
2014-05-12T08:41:43Z splittist: xificurC: a job for lisp-clippy "You do realise you just gave that named that method with a keyword, don't you?"
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2014-05-12T08:42:00Z splittist: s/gave that//
2014-05-12T08:42:00Z dim: last time for me it was on :initarg but I guess it counts the same
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2014-05-12T08:47:22Z joe-w-bimedina: H4ns - Thanks for hearing me out at least...good night
2014-05-12T08:49:10Z splittist: joe-w-bimedina: if you're still here, throw up a gist and see if someone takes up the challenge in the logs.
2014-05-12T08:49:29Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks man..will do
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2014-05-12T08:54:10Z xificurC: any ideas why Emacs would indent my comments like this? http://paste.lisp.org/+31YJ
2014-05-12T08:54:35Z H4ns: xificurC: that's how it is supposed to indent single-semicolon comments
2014-05-12T08:54:51Z Shinmera: xificurC: Use two semicolons for in-block comments.
2014-05-12T08:54:55Z H4ns: xificurC: ; is a line-level comment, ;; is a block-level comment, ;;; is a file-level comment.
2014-05-12T08:55:30Z xificurC: dont i learn something every day
2014-05-12T08:55:35Z xificurC: thanks H4ns and Shinmera
2014-05-12T08:55:37Z phadthai: and ;;;; is often used for file-level header
2014-05-12T08:55:37Z pjb: ;;;; is a big header file level comment.
2014-05-12T08:56:33Z pjb: :accessor class-slot could make you avoid the :accessor :slot typo.
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2014-05-12T08:57:18Z pjb: xificurC: and splittist is onto something: it's trivial to write and use a defclass macro that would check it for you.
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2014-05-12T09:00:43Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: have a look at CLAUDE, for inspiration.   The fastest way to convert is not to convert.  Just keep this foreign pointer, and use CFFI to access its slots if needed (let's hope you will just not need it).
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2014-05-12T09:05:31Z joe-w-bimedina: cffi is 150 times slower than my way...sometimes..I'm trying to break that barrier ......Ok here is my C bindings for the C++ vector class https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/5ce8e4cf42641a8a42e1  Here is how I have all my Lisp wrappers defined for vector<int> (as an example of how all my vectors wrappers are wrapped in lisp)  https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/70c3d7f1a83fe5af3c2f  My vector<uchar> type definitions https://gist.github.com/W-Net
2014-05-12T09:05:31Z joe-w-bimedina: -AI/6d9c2275835a13d6df09 ..Its alot of code for to conert just vector<uchar> but it is just to act as an intermediary between C++ and Lisp, all the vector ops are to be done in Lisp and then converted to be passed to a c++ function
2014-05-12T09:06:18Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: you cannot use any ffi invocations for accessing individual vector elements and expect that to be superfast
2014-05-12T09:07:08Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: it can be reasonably fast if you're careful, but it can also be very slow.  as i wrote (and pjb said, too), you need to share the representation of the vector so that both cl and c++ can access the data without invoking the other language through the ffi
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2014-05-12T09:07:25Z joe-w-bimedina: I convert to Lisp vec or list and then convert back....perfect..if you don't have to convert back and forth over 10000 times
2014-05-12T09:08:27Z joe-w-bimedina: trying to get Lisp vec automatically output in multiple value list,but have it be speedy
2014-05-12T09:08:59Z joe-w-bimedina: then I can get rid of alot of the code I have
2014-05-12T09:09:31Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: further, you don't need to convert anything, because CFFI gives you functions to directly access the foreign data.  You don't need the wrappers.  I'd write in C a function to manipulate iterators, and return a pointer to the slot in the C++ vector.  Then CFFI can deference this pointer accessing directly the data into the C++ vector.
2014-05-12T09:09:50Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: listen to the man
2014-05-12T09:10:20Z pjb: And again, try not to do that at all.  Instead, call the C function that will call the C++ method that will work on your C++ data.  Don't try to access small C++ bytes from lisp.
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2014-05-12T09:12:01Z joe-w-bimedina: I was advise by a colleague that I should convert between  Lisp vector and C++ vector in a 0(1) op...but I could use a code exaample how to do this with vector<int>
2014-05-12T09:12:05Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: and there no such thing as a multiple value list.  A function returns multiple values, or it returns a list, but it doesn't return a multiple value list.  In CL, multiple values are not first class objects.  List are.
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2014-05-12T09:12:48Z pjb: This O(1) op is possible only with certain implementations, and only for certain element types.
2014-05-12T09:13:13Z pjb: It's very implementation dependant, probably even version dependant.   I wouldn't try to do that.
2014-05-12T09:13:35Z joe-w-bimedina: I returned a list I could cdr with multiple values in it....oh it does have to be implementation independent..It might be going into OpenCV
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2014-05-12T09:13:58Z joe-w-bimedina: It has to work on all platforms
2014-05-12T09:14:06Z pjb: A list may contain several elements, but it's not multiple values.  See the difference between (values 1 2 3) and (list 1 2 3)!
2014-05-12T09:14:27Z pjb: Then forget direct access to the slot from both side.
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2014-05-12T09:16:06Z CrazyWoods: pjb: :)
2014-05-12T09:17:53Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: if you insist, have a look at cffi::foreign-array-to-lisp cffi::lisp-array-to-foreign
2014-05-12T09:19:14Z joe-w-bimedina: I just would love to just have my vector<uchar> wrapper output 3 values,ideally a c++ vector/lisp vector/lisp list in less than a second for a million iterations...ok will take a look, thank you
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2014-05-12T09:21:41Z joe-w-bimedina: can't find foreign-array-to-lisp  in cffi-doc..could I have an example of usage
2014-05-12T09:22:11Z pjb: I wouldn't expect it to be documented, since they're not exported symbols, as the double colon indicates.
2014-05-12T09:22:21Z pjb: Again, a hint that you should not do that.
2014-05-12T09:23:01Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: you seem to have trouble accepting that there is no portable, super-fast way of sharing arrays between cl and c++
2014-05-12T09:23:33Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: so here, let me tell you again:  there is no way to share arrays in a super-fast way between c++ and cl.
2014-05-12T09:23:50Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: or, you could wait for drmeister's implementation.
2014-05-12T09:24:06Z joe-w-bimedina: what is drmeister
2014-05-12T09:24:21Z pjb: type /who drmeister
2014-05-12T09:24:23Z phadthai: (or use ECL)
2014-05-12T09:24:35Z H4ns: drmeister writes a new cl implementation that is focused on good interoperability between cl and c++
2014-05-12T09:25:08Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks..is it in process
2014-05-12T09:25:50Z H4ns: drmeister would be the person to know
2014-05-12T09:25:54Z jdz: joe-w-bimedina: wait, but don't hold your breath
2014-05-12T09:26:17Z joe-w-bimedina: where do I type /who drmeister...typed it here and nada
2014-05-12T09:26:32Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: that is because he is not logged in right now.
2014-05-12T09:26:46Z jdz: or try /whois
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2014-05-12T09:26:56Z pjb: That's because you're using a bad irc client.  Here it says:
2014-05-12T09:26:57Z pjb:    *** #lisp       drmeister  H    ~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net (Chris Schafmeister)
2014-05-12T09:27:13Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2014-05-12T09:27:21Z joe-w-bimedina: so I can email him?
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2014-05-12T09:28:01Z pjb: It's not an email. But his real name seems to be mentionned.  So you could find him, knowing that he's a PhD.
2014-05-12T09:31:38Z joe-w-bimedina: So just tell him what I'm after pretty much ? ok...is there a timeline for his implementation?  is it promising?
2014-05-12T09:31:55Z splittist: joe-w-bimedina: why do you need the same information as a c++ array, a lisp array and a lisp list a million times a second?
2014-05-12T09:33:26Z joe-w-bimedina: I have to convert the vector output of an OpenCV function to a lisp vector. Do ops on it and convert it back..
2014-05-12T09:35:27Z splittist: joe-w-bimedina: are you using a lisp library that requires a lisp vector to work on? Can you re-implement it to work on the c++ vector directly?
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2014-05-12T09:43:24Z joe-w-bimedina: ok just tested and mem-aref will do 0.003 seconds per million..I have to convert to a c array for that which takes .154 seconds per million...can you show me how to convert say a n length foreign-alloc to a lisp list in less time than that...Lisp is fun..I'd like to convert it all to Lisp
2014-05-12T09:43:43Z joe-w-bimedina: and nth takes .003 too
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2014-05-12T09:45:18Z Cymew: I have been given a xml file, and would like to grab a selection of elements from it. I have never really dissasembles xml before, anyone have suggestions for tools to use, and things to read?
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2014-05-12T09:45:34Z joe-w-bimedina: hello drmeister...can I ask about you c++ to Lisp conversion /implementation
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2014-05-12T09:46:36Z splittist: joe-w-bimedina: lisp is an excellent language to do bit-fiddling with - even fiddling with foreign bits. If you're just going to send the array back to c++ (so that garbage collection is not an issue) why not - as so many have suggested - work on that array?
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2014-05-12T09:49:05Z H4ns: Cymew: try cxml and cxml-stp
2014-05-12T09:49:29Z Cymew: Thanks, will take a look at those
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2014-05-12T09:49:48Z joe-w-bimedina: I love to use Lisp if I could covert this data pointer https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/f251c73d76998395ae54 to a lisp list in an immediate op that would be perfect
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2014-05-12T09:50:38Z H4ns: argh
2014-05-12T09:51:08Z joe-w-bimedina: I think people attracted to my library would appreciate my ideally,:) wide usage of Lisp..this my first major step
2014-05-12T09:51:54Z splittist: joe-w-bimedina: imagine I can repeal the laws of space and time and instantly give you a native lisp list. What will you do with it?
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2014-05-12T09:53:26Z joe-w-bimedina: since C++ is a general purpose programming language and Lisp isn't I would Use Lisps power to make OpenCV awesome
2014-05-12T09:54:14Z H4ns: 1) lisp 2) ??? 3) profit
2014-05-12T09:55:06Z splittist: That answer has certainly saved me all the time I might otherwise have dedicated to helping (:
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2014-05-12T09:58:38Z jdz: Lisp is not a general purpose programming language?  That's definitely news to me.
2014-05-12T09:58:40Z Cymew: Jeebus! That cxml was way more competent than me? What the heck is a SAX handler?
2014-05-12T09:58:51Z Zhivago: Lisp is only suitable for pornographic applications.
2014-05-12T09:58:59Z Cymew is googling frantically
2014-05-12T09:59:11Z H4ns: Cymew: xml is complicated.  i thought about warning you, but hey :)
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2014-05-12T09:59:20Z H4ns: Zhivago: it is for auto-erotic applications.
2014-05-12T09:59:22Z jdz: (.)(.)
2014-05-12T09:59:25Z Cymew: :)
2014-05-12T09:59:30Z jdz: that's not a valid lisp, though
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2014-05-12T09:59:58Z Cymew: H4ns: The other alternativbe was to try to work with Excel docs which seemed even harder...
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2014-05-12T10:00:27Z joe-w-bimedina: I meant because of I'ts AI roots and it's uses in science...I think of it as a scientific language
2014-05-12T10:00:36Z H4ns cringes
2014-05-12T10:00:45Z joe-w-bimedina: :)
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2014-05-12T10:00:56Z Zhivago: Lisp was originally used by hairy people.
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2014-05-12T10:01:15Z joe-w-bimedina: I did not know that
2014-05-12T10:01:35Z CrazyWoods: Zhivago: pornograhics?
2014-05-12T10:01:39Z splittist: beards are compulsory, but since CLtL1 they can be virtual beards
2014-05-12T10:01:58Z CrazyWoods: what's lisp target domain?
2014-05-12T10:02:11Z Zhivago: Not furry porn.
2014-05-12T10:02:24Z Shinmera: <<In spite of its lack of popularity, Lisp remains an influential language in "key algorithmic techniques such as recursion and condescension.">>
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2014-05-12T10:03:07Z Cymew: Here we only do straight porn in lisp. Furry is $500 per 100 LOC
2014-05-12T10:03:28Z joe-w-bimedina: amen Shinmere
2014-05-12T10:03:41Z Shinmera: tab completion sure is hard
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2014-05-12T10:06:43Z Xach: joe-w-bimedina: you have been getting patient, competent help on cffi-devel. that is probably a better place to try.
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2014-05-12T10:08:11Z joe-w-bimedina: they have helped me alot...just figured I'd try this..but I'll go post my? over there...Thanks for all your hospitality
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2014-05-12T10:08:54Z Xach: joe-w-bimedina: you are getting a lot of negative feedback here for writing things that are ridiculous. if you avoid that on cffi-devel, you may continue to get help there.
2014-05-12T10:11:11Z joe-w-bimedina: what did I say  that was ridiculous?...being honest I'd really like to improve my ? asking...pls excuse my slight lack of knowledge pertaining to C++ to Lisp vectors, if that was it
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2014-05-12T10:12:40Z Xach: joe-w-bimedina: "Lisp isn't a general purpose language" is ridiculous.
2014-05-12T10:13:03Z dim: where is that quote when you need it?
2014-05-12T10:14:00Z Xach: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/quoted.html
2014-05-12T10:15:28Z dim: ah yeah, awesome, I was thinking about this one: “Please don't assume Lisp is only useful for Animation and Graphics, AI, Bioinformatics, B2B and Ecommerce, Data Mining, EDA/Semiconductor applications, Expert Systems, Finance, Intelligent Agents, Knowledge Management, Mechanical CAD, Modeling and Simulation, Natural Language, Optimization, Research, Risk Analysis, Scheduling, Telecom, and Web Authoring just becaus
2014-05-12T10:15:29Z dim: e these are the only things they happened to list.”
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2014-05-12T10:16:46Z joe-w-bimedina: I must have misunderstood, I always heard c++ referenced as a GP language and Lisp as not
2014-05-12T10:17:12Z Xach: joe-w-bimedina: Now you know better.
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2014-05-12T10:17:35Z joe-w-bimedina: what is the definition of general purpose language
2014-05-12T10:17:43Z splittist: joe-w-bimedina: off topic
2014-05-12T10:17:48Z Zhivago: You can write non-pornographic applications with them.
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2014-05-12T10:20:32Z CrazyWoods: :)
2014-05-12T10:20:35Z CrazyWoods: funny
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2014-05-12T10:26:05Z joe-w-bimedina: first time on #lisp...I'll do better at asking next time ...just found it..from the Lisp wiki "Today, the most widely known general-purpose Lisp dialects are Common Lisp and Scheme.'
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2014-05-12T10:33:05Z CrazyWoods: joe-w-bimedina: :)
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2014-05-12T10:38:05Z joe-w-bimedina: been searching on this..anyone know how I can define a keyword eg :char-max as a constant equaling 0,1,2.. heard on Lisp forum redirection would be involved...it would have to b fast though, under .01 second
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2014-05-12T10:40:24Z p_l: joe-w-bimedina: keywords evaluate to themselves
2014-05-12T10:40:49Z p_l: you could use keywords as keys in hashtable, though
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2014-05-12T10:43:33Z joe-w-bimedina: can I have an example..where i can define :char-max to = 127
2014-05-12T10:43:47Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: you can't.  use a variable or a constant.
2014-05-12T10:43:58Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: (defconstant +char-max+ 127)
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2014-05-12T10:44:17Z joe-w-bimedina: well cffi's
2014-05-12T10:44:17Z joe-w-bimedina: cffi:defcenum and cffi:foreign-enum-value do it but take 1 sencond per million iterartions..I would love to find a quicker way
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2014-05-12T10:44:54Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: binding a value to a keyword symbol is not a quicker way.
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2014-05-12T10:45:36Z joe-w-bimedina: i said it was slow:)..i was hoping to do better
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2014-05-12T10:46:48Z p_l: joe-w-bimedina: why not use one of the multiple memoization examples to memoize the results of the calls?
2014-05-12T10:47:23Z joe-w-bimedina: id need example...not sure what that is
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2014-05-12T10:49:55Z p_l: joe-w-bimedina: meaning that on the first access, it would save the value and return the saved value if it had a match
2014-05-12T10:50:07Z p_l: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEEQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMemoization&ei=WKdwU863N4jqPPT3gMAB&usg=AFQjCNFCPpA_4Zul67dPSojHH625kWTAzg&sig2=47dvjY2bTKDcdSyxbwNzpA
2014-05-12T10:50:11Z p_l: gaaah
2014-05-12T10:50:20Z p_l: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoization
2014-05-12T10:50:22Z p_l: ^
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2014-05-12T10:54:38Z Cymew: IT actually looks like the ruby gem Nokogiri is easier to use than the available cl tools for xml. They are way to complex and powerful. Go figure...
2014-05-12T10:54:53Z joe-w-bimedina: Thanks man..thats what I was looking for
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2014-05-12T10:58:43Z joe-w-bimedina: drmeister: how long til your implementation is done?
2014-05-12T10:58:57Z p_l: Cymew: nokogiri can be a pain to configure and install
2014-05-12T10:59:04Z p_l: since 1.6.0 or so
2014-05-12T10:59:37Z Cymew: Doen't look to terrible so far
2014-05-12T10:59:37Z joe-w-bimedina: p_l: is that to me
2014-05-12T11:00:00Z Cymew tears out his hair over his clumsy fingers
2014-05-12T11:00:16Z Cymew: "Doesn't"
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2014-05-12T11:01:13Z p_l: Cymew: the problems start when you are building packages to be used elsewhere.
2014-05-12T11:01:18Z p_l: it's a royal PITA
2014-05-12T11:01:43Z p_l: as for CL tools for XML, I really recommend STP mode from clxml-stp
2014-05-12T11:02:05Z p_l: unfortunately XSLT tools are outdated (just like xsltproc, though)
2014-05-12T11:02:49Z Cymew: Yeah, it looked good, but it was way to dense with xml terminology. I have no idea what DOM, SAX and all that jazz is
2014-05-12T11:02:51Z H4ns: the thing is, xml is complicated, but some libraries for other languages do a great job hiding away the complexity for many useful cases.
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2014-05-12T11:03:01Z Cymew: ...to say nothing about XSLT
2014-05-12T11:03:23Z H4ns: Cymew: if you deal with xml, you'll need to learn what it is.
2014-05-12T11:03:27Z Cymew: Who invented this mess anyway...
2014-05-12T11:03:55Z Cymew: Like I said, I ended up here because I wanted to saty away from Excel. Maybe I should just jump off a cliff.
2014-05-12T11:04:07Z H4ns: Cymew: or become a gardener.
2014-05-12T11:04:18Z Cymew: Not a too bad an idea
2014-05-12T11:04:23Z H4ns: Cymew: bye bye.
2014-05-12T11:04:30Z p_l: Cymew: I like STP because I could use it nicely with lisp constructs
2014-05-12T11:04:43Z p_l: kind of like... recursive filter function
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2014-05-12T11:05:13Z Cymew: Mmm. The potential is there for some painless xml processing. I guess I need to spend more time on this than I'd like to.
2014-05-12T11:05:31Z Cymew: ...or become a gardener
2014-05-12T11:05:38Z p_l: Cymew: XML by itself is quite nifty, IMO. However, nifty or not, people can make horrible things on top of it
2014-05-12T11:05:48Z H4ns: Cymew: or use abcl to directly work with the excel using apache poi
2014-05-12T11:06:14Z p_l: H4ns: I recall at least one person here writing COM extensions to Excel with ECL :)
2014-05-12T11:06:24Z Cymew: I found someone blogging about that, yeah.
2014-05-12T11:06:33Z H4ns: Cymew: that was me.
2014-05-12T11:06:44Z Cymew: Ah, I see
2014-05-12T11:06:48Z p_l: francogrex also did some, I think?
2014-05-12T11:07:05Z p_l: that is, francogrex did ECL-in-Excel stuff, iirc
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2014-05-12T11:07:28Z Cymew: Sounds like we have been through the same hell
2014-05-12T11:08:07Z Cymew: Well, time to shut up and read up on this thing...
2014-05-12T11:08:58Z splittist: Cymew: you have excel files and need to look for things within them? If you're just reading, you don't need to know much about xml/validation etc. STP is one way. CSS-selectors is another.
2014-05-12T11:09:04Z H4ns: Cymew: someone mentioned a pure cl library to access .xsl files directly recently
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2014-05-12T11:09:24Z H4ns: Cymew: that might work for you, if you have .xsl and not .xslx
2014-05-12T11:09:35Z H4ns: Cymew: 05-12-13%3A01%3A12.png
2014-05-12T11:09:36Z H4ns: oops
2014-05-12T11:09:43Z H4ns: Cymew: http://logand.com/git/cl-olefs.git
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2014-05-12T11:12:07Z H4ns: this is better: http://logand.com/sw/cl-olefs.html
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2014-05-12T12:16:07Z quazi: hay hay
2014-05-12T12:20:24Z Cymew: H4ns: Cool. Many thanks. I have not looked that closely if it's xls or xlsx, since I thought xml was the easier way to go. Might be an option, though.
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2014-05-12T13:18:54Z Xach: slyrus: what's the scoop with opticl and sbcl 1.1.18?
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2014-05-12T13:22:00Z |3b|: Xach: sbcl problem i think https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1310574
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2014-05-12T13:25:11Z Xach: Is SBCL detecting a previously undetected bug in that case?
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2014-05-12T13:25:16Z Xach: Or is SBCL getting it wrong?
2014-05-12T13:26:03Z oleo: morning
2014-05-12T13:26:04Z Xach: A little of both?
2014-05-12T13:26:15Z oleo: what's the issue ?
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2014-05-12T13:39:56Z |3b|: Xach: bugfix in sbcl exposing a weakness in another part of sbcl if i understand correctly. I think the opticl code is conformant
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2014-05-12T13:42:11Z Xach: ok
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2014-05-12T14:09:34Z dim: how does one make sure a string is a simple-string?
2014-05-12T14:09:47Z dim: uiop:run-program fails to do that before calling into ccl:run-program apparently
2014-05-12T14:10:03Z dim: Program args must all be simple strings : ("clone" "https://github.com/dimitri/prefix" "/tmp/pginstall/prefix/")
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2014-05-12T14:10:47Z dim: I have a simple-base-string, a base-string and a simple-base-string again
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2014-05-12T14:11:56Z dim: the base-string seems to be a code literal
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2014-05-12T14:14:28Z dim: (mm, no)
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2014-05-12T14:17:01Z Xach: dim: coercing seems like one way.
2014-05-12T14:18:39Z dim: would you just coerce or typecase to only do it when needed?
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2014-05-12T14:19:43Z Xach: i might do something like (ensure-simple-string string) with an etypecase.
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2014-05-12T14:20:10Z Xach: warning: just thinking out loud, not thinking deeply and then writing. sorry.
2014-05-12T14:20:49Z dim: I do that almost of the time, don't be sorry, I understand I'm not contracting you but only exchanging ideas
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2014-05-12T14:22:56Z Xach: oof. that will make things a little awkward when i hand you the invoice.
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2014-05-12T14:25:03Z dim: hehe
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2014-05-12T14:25:29Z dim: be sure to use "beers" as the currency
2014-05-12T14:25:39Z dim: it won't be that awkward anymore then ;-)
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2014-05-12T14:27:05Z pjb: Zhivago: originally, people weren't hairy, so LISP couldn't have been used by hairy people: http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/mccarthy.gif  http://neoshock.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/steve_russell-prev.jpg   Remember it was the time when they wore pens and pencils wrapped in pocket protectors in their shirt pocket, and when they used slide-rules.
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2014-05-12T14:30:59Z pjb: dim: (copy-seq complex-string)
2014-05-12T14:31:21Z dim: will coerce just do that? it works with coercing now
2014-05-12T14:31:53Z pjb: Well, copy-seq is unconditional.  So if you have doubts, better use coerce or ensure-simple-string.
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2014-05-12T14:34:57Z dim: yeah ok, what I'm doing
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2014-05-12T15:39:50Z didi: Can I temporarily use `,' as a whitespace for reading? I have a string like "(42.34,31.5,54)", which is a list of numbers using "," as a separation character and I want to read each number. (read-from-string "(42.34,31.5,54)") => (42.34 31.5 54)
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2014-05-12T15:43:15Z prxq: didi: you can use substitute
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2014-05-12T15:44:03Z dim: what can I read about defun setf?
2014-05-12T15:44:05Z Xach: dim: set-syntax-from-char may be what you want, with a temporary binding of *READTABLE* to avoid future problems.
2014-05-12T15:44:09Z Xach: err, didi, rather
2014-05-12T15:44:43Z drewc: didi: yes ... http://common-lisp.net/project/named-readtables/  ... (let  ((*readtable* ...)) ...) will work as well.
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2014-05-12T15:45:03Z didi: Great! Thank you all. :^)
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2014-05-12T15:46:53Z drewc would prefer SPLIT-SEQUENCE and not using the READ'er, but it is pre-9:00AM, so may not be rational at this point.
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2014-05-12T15:47:31Z Shinmera: didi: I did something similar recently, you might want to take a look: https://github.com/Shinmera/Universal-Config/blob/master/outputs/lisp.lisp#L29
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2014-05-12T15:48:18Z Shinmera: Disclaimer: I have no idea how good or idiomatic that code is
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2014-05-12T15:49:04Z drewc: oh yeah, the reason I am here at all : Who runs lisppaste these days, where/how etc?
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2014-05-12T15:50:23Z drewc has been getting  'please remove this paste' emails a lot, and he does not run it but it seems that, somehow, he is known as the person who runs it (??).
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2014-05-12T15:53:39Z didi: Shinmera: Thanks.
2014-05-12T15:53:49Z puchacz: hi, I am sending a file via hunchentoot and I am getting this:
2014-05-12T15:53:50Z puchacz: Couldn't write to #<SB-SYS:FD-STREAM for "socket 127.0.0.1:8080, peer: 127.0.0.1:33912" {102280AA13}>: Broken pipe [Condition of type SB-INT:SIMPLE-STREAM-ERROR]
2014-05-12T15:54:13Z puchacz: it is on (write-sequence buf out :end chunk-size)
2014-05-12T15:54:19Z puchacz: inside handle-static-file
2014-05-12T15:54:27Z puchacz: I don't really know what I am doing wrong
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2014-05-12T15:55:34Z puchacz: lispworks is not raising this condition
2014-05-12T15:56:03Z puchacz: maybe there are some #+sbcl #+lw sections though
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2014-05-12T15:57:08Z nyef: Broken pipe sounds a bit odd for a socket...
2014-05-12T15:57:37Z nyef: Might be me having not done any serious low-level socket stuff in ages, though.
2014-05-12T15:57:48Z puchacz: doesn't it usually mean that something closed the stream?
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2014-05-12T15:59:46Z Xach: It often means that.
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2014-05-12T16:02:39Z oleo: hmm, i notice climacs highlights stuff is pretty slow......
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2014-05-12T16:03:23Z oleo: especially the "", when you have just one " the highlighting of the rest of the buffer changes at least until next ), but it should just be end of line....
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2014-05-12T16:04:08Z oleo: i mean it should not scan until closing paren.... just eol...
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2014-05-12T16:04:55Z |3b|: why? strings can span multiple lines
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2014-05-12T16:05:30Z drewc: so can symbols!
2014-05-12T16:05:31Z oleo: yes they can, but when they don't it's expensive.....
2014-05-12T16:05:42Z oleo: makes it slow as hell......
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2014-05-12T16:05:56Z oleo: hmmmmm
2014-05-12T16:06:04Z |3b|: so possibly it should defer slow things until the user stops typing or something, but just doing it wrong sounds like a bad idea
2014-05-12T16:06:34Z |3b|: (and it should actually check whether things are slow, or it will end up like emacs, doing things wrong because something was slow 20 years ago)
2014-05-12T16:06:35Z oleo: or that....one way or another there must be a better way yes
2014-05-12T16:06:49Z oleo: heh
2014-05-12T16:06:53Z |3b|: or just not be slow
2014-05-12T16:07:59Z oleo: yes
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2014-05-12T16:08:38Z drewc would go ahead and profile it to see where the slowdown is and if it could be 'fixed'.
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2014-05-12T16:33:39Z stassats: whoo, a DMCA request for lisppaste
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2014-05-12T16:36:20Z oleo: ?
2014-05-12T16:36:27Z oleo: what does dmca stand for ?
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2014-05-12T16:36:37Z stassats: minion: what does DMCA stand for?
2014-05-12T16:36:37Z minion: Democratical Muckle Coasting Acridic
2014-05-12T16:37:49Z hitecnologys: stassats: from whom?
2014-05-12T16:38:04Z stassats: no idea
2014-05-12T16:38:14Z stassats: it was some junk anyhow
2014-05-12T16:38:42Z hitecnologys: I see.
2014-05-12T16:39:05Z stassats: and i took ten days for the FWD: chain to reach me
2014-05-12T16:39:13Z Shinmera: I got a DMCA for a file that hasn't existed for half a year anymore already once.
2014-05-12T16:39:16Z drewc: "Invalid paste number 142359" ... my work here is done
2014-05-12T16:39:33Z CrazyWoods: pjb: can i query you?
2014-05-12T16:39:50Z drewc: stassats: and assuming that was somehow related to this/you, thank you :)
2014-05-12T16:40:05Z stassats: no problem
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2014-05-12T17:20:49Z pjb: CrazyWoods: you can query.
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2014-05-12T17:35:33Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2014-05-12T17:35:45Z oleo: hello beach!
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2014-05-12T17:36:22Z beach: oleo: The incremental CL parser from Climacs is not worth fixing.
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2014-05-12T17:37:09Z beach: oleo: It is an LR parser generated manually, so hard to maintain, and, while better than that of Emacs, it is still approximate.
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2014-05-12T17:38:30Z beach: oleo: For Second Climacs, I designed a method based on an incremental version of READ, which gives a very precise parse of the buffer contents, including user-defined reader macros.
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2014-05-12T17:39:14Z beach: oleo: Just wanted to let you know before you put too much work into it.
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2014-05-12T17:40:39Z beach: The one for Second Climacs should be able to handle the requirements that drmeiste_ has too, i.e. parsing embedded C++ code, provided that the C++ parser is defined as a reader macro.
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2014-05-12T17:41:27Z oleo: re
2014-05-12T17:41:50Z beach: oleo: You may have to read the logs in case you missed some of what I told you.
2014-05-12T17:42:00Z oleo: beach: why is the incremental parser for cl in climacs not worth it ?
2014-05-12T17:42:06Z oleo: yes i missed it all....
2014-05-12T17:42:15Z beach: Read the logs, and you will find out.
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2014-05-12T17:42:39Z beach: minion: Please tell oleo about logs.
2014-05-12T17:42:39Z minion: oleo: please look at logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000)
2014-05-12T17:43:36Z oleo: ok got it
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2014-05-12T17:44:21Z Shinmera: oleo: http://log.irc.tymoon.eu/?s=2014.5.12+19%3A38-2014.05.12+19%3A43-FREENODE%2F%23lisp--ma
2014-05-12T17:44:24Z oleo: that sounds superb!
2014-05-12T17:45:53Z oleo: i didn't meant that the machinery is not optimized maybe just that somethings were not abstracted and composed in a more efficient way ....
2014-05-12T17:46:06Z beach: oleo: mathrick was supposed to work on Second Climacs, but got caught up in something else, and Second Climacs is using CLIM3/CLIMatis which does not yet have presentation types, so M-x interaction is till not possible.
2014-05-12T17:46:38Z oleo: so more of a logical bug than a unoptimized procedure ....
2014-05-12T17:46:48Z beach: oleo: And I am busy working on SICL-related papers.  GC at the moment.  So I don't have time either.
2014-05-12T17:46:58Z oleo: no problem beach
2014-05-12T17:47:18Z oleo: i'll wait
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2014-05-12T17:47:22Z oleo: eheh
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2014-05-12T17:47:43Z oleo: or find out the issue on my side.....
2014-05-12T17:47:54Z oleo: else i'll maybe have a look at your stuff.....
2014-05-12T17:48:06Z mathrick_: beach: I landed the job, so now I can hopefully get me back on track and work on carving out some side project time
2014-05-12T17:48:34Z beach: mathrick_: Hey!  Good to see you!  Congratulations to the job!
2014-05-12T17:48:50Z mathrick_: thankies :)
2014-05-12T17:50:12Z beach: oleo: Second Climacs also have a better buffer representation, so that it is easier (i.e., faster) to associate partial parsing information with points in the buffer.  And the update protocol is much better too.  Lots of improvements in other words.
2014-05-12T17:50:35Z beach: mathrick_: Where is the job located?
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2014-05-12T17:50:58Z mathrick_: beach: about 15 minutes away by bike from my home :)
2014-05-12T17:51:00Z mathrick_: ie. in Odense
2014-05-12T17:51:07Z beach: Very nice!
2014-05-12T17:51:20Z mathrick_: indeed
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2014-05-12T17:51:42Z mathrick_: http://www.ordbogen.com/ <-- this is my company (although not the project I work on)
2014-05-12T17:52:12Z mathrick_: the project does technically have a site, but it's absolutely useless for anyone who isn't a customer already, since it's aimed at Danish elementary schools
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2014-05-12T17:53:41Z beach: A limited but stable clientele.
2014-05-12T17:54:09Z mathrick_: yep!
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2014-05-12T17:54:31Z beach: OK, I just showed up in order to save oleo some work.  Now I need to go spend time with my (admittedly small) family.
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2014-05-12T17:54:39Z mathrick_: have fun
2014-05-12T17:54:42Z beach: Thanks.
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2014-05-12T17:57:57Z pjb: I bet beach has an emacs post-command hook that substitute all occurences of "my family" with "my (admintedly small) family" :-)
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2014-05-12T18:01:11Z JuanDaugherty: gotta have mega family i guess
2014-05-12T18:01:58Z Xach: that is what gabor melis has
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2014-05-12T20:36:36Z fua: FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! 238000
2014-05-12T20:36:41Z fua: FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! 944464
2014-05-12T20:36:46Z fua: FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! 144293
2014-05-12T20:36:51Z fua: FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! 912365
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2014-05-12T20:36:51Z stassats: cool
2014-05-12T20:36:56Z fua: FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! 336877
2014-05-12T20:37:01Z fua: FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! 725905
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2014-05-12T20:37:13Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2014-05-12T20:37:30Z Xach has set mode -o Xach
2014-05-12T20:37:33Z Xach: Darn.
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2014-05-12T20:37:41Z Krystof: too slow!
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2014-05-12T20:42:52Z ggole: What's with the random number at the end?
2014-05-12T20:47:26Z jsnell_: foiling duplicate detection, presumably
2014-05-12T20:48:12Z oGMo: really crappy duplicate detection heh
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2014-05-12T20:52:51Z ggole: Right.
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2014-05-12T21:46:49Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2014-05-12T21:46:49Z f-y-a: FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! FUCK YOU ALL!!! 159089
2014-05-12T21:46:54Z Xach has set mode +b *!*fua@185.3.135.*
2014-05-12T21:47:07Z Xach: hmm.
2014-05-12T21:47:08Z f-y-a [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (f-y-a)
2014-05-12T21:47:22Z whartung: \o/
2014-05-12T21:47:30Z whartung: he's been all over today.
2014-05-12T21:47:44Z whartung: "it"s been all over...
2014-05-12T21:48:05Z Xach: p_l: should your modes inhibit that kind of thing?
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2014-05-12T21:51:40Z JuanDaugherty: i thought it was only #ledger
2014-05-12T21:52:11Z tvaalen: Funny guy.
2014-05-12T21:53:07Z JuanDaugherty: or at least only seen it there
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2014-05-12T22:52:24Z Fade: It's always good to get a little reminder of why it felt so nice to leave efnet.
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2014-05-13T01:44:03Z Neyker017: holaaaa
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2014-05-13T01:45:21Z Neyker017: :3
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2014-05-13T01:46:53Z JuanDaugherty: yello Neyker017
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2014-05-13T01:50:41Z Neyker017: .Depale
2014-05-13T01:51:00Z Neyker017: jajajaja
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2014-05-13T02:01:38Z p_l: Xach: q-modes aren't good enough for that kind of thing
2014-05-13T02:01:43Z p_l: sorry, been asleep :)
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2014-05-13T02:47:07Z republican_devil: so what does doug hoyt work on now?
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2014-05-13T02:47:10Z republican_devil: impressive book
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2014-05-13T03:16:23Z leo2007: any university has courses taught using cl?
2014-05-13T03:17:47Z Bike: yeah, in compiler courses and such. my school's compiler course had "ANSI Common Lisp" as a required text last year
2014-05-13T03:18:14Z leo2007: Bike: does it have a webpage or something?
2014-05-13T03:18:24Z leo2007: would like to take a look.
2014-05-13T03:18:27Z loke__: re
2014-05-13T03:19:34Z leo2007: ?
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2014-05-13T03:22:34Z Bike: leo2007: i don't really want to go looking for it. it would just be an in-house page for people looking for their homework, anyway.
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2014-05-13T03:24:28Z leo2007: OK
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2014-05-13T03:25:03Z Bike: mighta been AI rather than compilers.
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2014-05-13T05:07:36Z Kasayarou: Cross-dialect question: Is a function application of the form (f a b . c) ever legal? If so, under what circumstances? How is 'c' evaluated and bound?
2014-05-13T05:08:56Z Kasayarou: I checked the HyperSpec but it doesn't quite seem to specify what happens if an improper list is used as a function form.
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2014-05-13T05:09:12Z sellout: Kasayarou: That looks like a Scheme version of #'apply
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2014-05-13T05:09:53Z Bike: (+ 4 . (3)) => 7
2014-05-13T05:10:04Z Kasayarou: sellout: Sorry? I'm not sure what you mean.
2014-05-13T05:10:21Z Kasayarou: Bike: :P Yeah, I mean an actual improper list.
2014-05-13T05:11:06Z Bike: clhs 3.1.2.1.2.3
2014-05-13T05:11:06Z specbot: Function Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababc.htm
2014-05-13T05:11:18Z Bike: i don't think it says outright, but it seems pretty clear that an improper list is not a valid function form
2014-05-13T05:11:24Z Bike: so "what happens" is that the code is nonconforming.
2014-05-13T05:11:47Z Bike: macro form should be okay, though
2014-05-13T05:13:40Z Bike: (defmacro durr (&rest args) `'(durr ,@args)), then (durr 6 3 . 2) => (DURR 6 3 . 2) as expected
2014-05-13T05:13:45Z Bike: probably fucks with keyword parsing and such
2014-05-13T05:14:39Z Kasayarou: I'm not sure I'd say it's "pretty clear". I can't see anything ruling out the interpretation that the final cdr of the dotted list is a subform and is the final evaluated argument. Am I missing something?
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2014-05-13T05:14:57Z Bike: common sense
2014-05-13T05:15:42Z Bike: i mean, the example code on that page is written (foo bar baz), not (foo bar . baz)
2014-05-13T05:16:14Z Kasayarou: Yeah, but that just demonstrates that (foo bar baz) is legal, not that (foo bar . baz) isn't.
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2014-05-13T05:17:12Z Bike: so you're saying, hypothetically, that "the cdr of the list contains" means "in its cars, unless the list is not nil-terminated in which case it's the cars and also the final cdr"
2014-05-13T05:17:52Z Bike: the hyperspec isn't some kind of computer-verifiable thing, you're allowed to use common sense in interpreting the thing.
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2014-05-13T05:21:54Z JuanDaugherty: in principle and in fact a programming language can have a rigorous, even a machine verifiable spec but this (CL) is not that lang
2014-05-13T05:22:24Z JuanDaugherty: and it's somewhat contrary to long established practice to even want it
2014-05-13T05:23:27Z JuanDaugherty: because specs codifying "common sense" are believed to be more "powerful", pragmatically
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2014-05-13T05:24:35Z JuanDaugherty: i.e codifying it in natural, generally informal lang
2014-05-13T05:25:32Z Kasayarou: I agree that it's not the simplest interpretation. I'm wondering more along the lines of "would an implementation that did that be considered a conforming implementation of CL". (Although I admit I've wandered away from my original purpose in so doing.)
2014-05-13T05:25:56Z Bike: not by anyone sensible, is what i'm saying
2014-05-13T05:26:01Z Bike: so maybe if it was in GCL
2014-05-13T05:27:35Z JuanDaugherty: that's a joke, right?
2014-05-13T05:27:46Z Bike: yeah
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2014-05-13T05:36:17Z Viaken: Has the Cells library been deprecated/replaced by something, abandoned, or reached a state of maturity such that it needs no real changes? >.>
2014-05-13T05:37:40Z pillton: Viaken: The latter from my experience.
2014-05-13T05:37:57Z pillton: I gave up trying to get a patch applied.
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2014-05-13T05:38:31Z Viaken: Just curious. It seems like a neat/handy idea.
2014-05-13T05:38:59Z pillton: Viaken: It is a great idea. It shattered my mind.
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2014-05-13T05:39:47Z JuanDaugherty: it's the only gtk cl binding?
2014-05-13T05:39:56Z pillton: Once I got it, I wondered what people were thinking with the MVC paradigm.
2014-05-13T05:40:32Z Viaken: JuanDaugherty: I meant Cells, not Cells-Gtk.
2014-05-13T05:40:51Z Viaken: Which also seems aged.
2014-05-13T05:41:23Z pillton: Viaken: I don't use Cells any more, I just use its take home point.
2014-05-13T05:41:30Z JuanDaugherty: i c
2014-05-13T05:41:42Z Viaken nods
2014-05-13T05:41:58Z JuanDaugherty: sounds like a way to kill OO interop
2014-05-13T05:42:23Z JuanDaugherty: but maybe being unnecessarily negative
2014-05-13T05:42:59Z JuanDaugherty: and interop wasn't quite the right word for this dev factor
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2014-05-13T05:43:36Z Viaken: Alright, I should hit the hay.
2014-05-13T05:43:43Z Viaken: Thanks for the info.
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2014-05-13T06:03:32Z malutskis: How would you perform "BCD additions" on the following pairs of hexadecimal numbers: 23267 49684 in lisp?
2014-05-13T06:04:52Z Bike: binary coded decimal?
2014-05-13T06:05:32Z malutskis: Bike: yes
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2014-05-13T06:06:13Z H4ns: malutskis: binary coding is a bit-level representation for numbers.  how does that relate to lisp?
2014-05-13T06:06:37Z H4ns: malutskis: are you sure you've got the question right?  and, are you sure that you're supposed to implement the answer in common lisp?
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2014-05-13T06:06:53Z malutskis: H4ns: yes
2014-05-13T06:08:03Z H4ns: so, given that bcd is a binary-level number representation, how to you expect to deal with it in lisp?
2014-05-13T06:08:07Z malutskis: [143975, 300676]
2014-05-13T06:08:10Z malutskis: Is this correct?
2014-05-13T06:08:18Z H4ns: that is not common lisp to begin with
2014-05-13T06:08:28Z H4ns: it is not even some other lisp's syntax that i'd know.
2014-05-13T06:08:29Z malutskis: It is my output
2014-05-13T06:09:00Z zRecursive: #(143975 300676)
2014-05-13T06:09:22Z White_Flame: the number 23,267 is the number 23,267, regardless if it is encoded in normal 2's complement or BCD
2014-05-13T06:09:51Z H4ns: i'd parse the hex numbers as decimal and add them
2014-05-13T06:10:03Z H4ns: but i'm pretty sure that that is not what the teacher wants them to do :)
2014-05-13T06:10:20Z Bike: i had no idea anyone still taught bcd
2014-05-13T06:10:36Z Kasayarou: The question sounds kind of like you're asking "how would you take an apple out of the fridge using a chainsaw?"
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2014-05-13T06:10:48Z White_Flame: Yes, for a second I thought I was on the Commodore 64 channel, discussing the 6502's BCD :-P
2014-05-13T06:11:11Z Kasayarou: There are a number of ways to do it, but the cleanest one is to not use the chainsaw at all.
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2014-05-13T06:11:33Z malutskis: >> "23267 49684".split(" ").map(&:hex)
2014-05-13T06:11:36Z White_Flame: Simply use the chainsaw to remove parts of the fridge that are not an apple
2014-05-13T06:11:40Z Bike: i mean, even x86 gave up on it
2014-05-13T06:12:01Z H4ns: malutskis: you're using python.  why?
2014-05-13T06:12:01Z Bike: malutskis: you're supposed to add them, so presumably your result is going to be one number.
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2014-05-13T06:12:23Z malutskis: H4ns: ruby
2014-05-13T06:12:32Z H4ns: malutskis: well, not lisp
2014-05-13T06:12:54Z H4ns: malutskis: i thought you were asking about lisp, now you're seem to be using something that is not lisp.
2014-05-13T06:13:01Z malutskis: > let addr x y | x + y < 10 = x + y; addr x y | x + y == 10 = 16; addr _ _ = error "sum too large!" in showHex (addr 0x9 0x1) ""
2014-05-13T06:13:10Z H4ns: malutskis: can you stop it now?
2014-05-13T06:13:19Z malutskis: H4ns: Haskell, close enough.
2014-05-13T06:13:23Z malutskis: ok
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2014-05-13T06:13:45Z Bike: i wish the people asking for homework help would at least do so in understandable terms, but they never do
2014-05-13T06:14:25Z zRecursive: Haskell is indeed a better pedandic language, isnot it ?
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2014-05-13T06:15:26Z malutskis: zRecursive: Less parenths
2014-05-13T06:15:47Z zRecursive: yeah
2014-05-13T06:16:14Z White_Flame: That's like saying Rush Limbaugh is indeed slightly more right wing than some.
2014-05-13T06:16:29Z malutskis: Don't know who Rush Limbaugh is.
2014-05-13T06:16:41Z White_Flame: </us politics>
2014-05-13T06:16:47Z H4ns: rush limbaugh is off topic, like ruby and haskell.
2014-05-13T06:17:43Z malutskis: White_Flame: Stay on topic please.
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2014-05-13T06:17:55Z malutskis: As will I.
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2014-05-13T06:51:47Z ZombieChicken: There a good book for general CL reference other than PCL?
2014-05-13T06:52:04Z nightfly: CLHS
2014-05-13T06:52:19Z ZombieChicken: CLHS?
2014-05-13T06:52:29Z H4ns: ZombieChicken: the hyperspec and "common lisp the language, 2nd edition"
2014-05-13T06:52:37Z ZombieChicken: thanks
2014-05-13T06:52:56Z H4ns: ZombieChicken: the latter is commonly referred to as cltl2, and it is slightly outdated with respect to ansi cl.  it is very useful nevertheless.
2014-05-13T06:53:24Z ZombieChicken: ty
2014-05-13T06:53:49Z White_Flame: Is the CLHS generally available in paper book form for a reasonable price?
2014-05-13T06:53:56Z H4ns: White_Flame: no
2014-05-13T06:54:06Z White_Flame: thought so
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2014-05-13T08:38:19Z xvzf: hi there, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1403717/how-do-i-iterate-through-a-directory-in-common-lisp suggests to use iolib. Is that any standard, i.e. portable and used-everywhere?
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2014-05-13T08:43:08Z H4ns: xvzf: it works fine on linux and probably also on osx and other posix systems
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2014-05-13T08:45:07Z Shinmera: xvzf: There's also uiop
2014-05-13T08:45:14Z xvzf: H4ns: so not on Windows? I am new to lisp, is iolib an ordinary open source library or it has some status of a standard?
2014-05-13T08:45:27Z H4ns: xvzf: it is an ordinary open source library
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2014-05-13T08:45:44Z xvzf: H4ns: I see
2014-05-13T08:45:45Z H4ns: xvzf: the only thing that has the status of a standard in the common lisp world ist the common lisp standard.
2014-05-13T08:46:12Z xvzf: H4ns: good to know
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2014-05-13T08:47:39Z Shinmera: Doesn't uiop come with asdf?
2014-05-13T08:47:59Z H4ns: Shinmera: so?
2014-05-13T08:48:07Z Shinmera: Well given that it should be on most implementations already
2014-05-13T08:48:13Z Shinmera: rather than requiring an extra lib
2014-05-13T08:48:46Z H4ns: Shinmera: not a good argument, given that many implementations come with older asdf versions.
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2014-05-13T08:48:55Z Shinmera: H4ns: Which is why I was asking
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2014-05-13T08:49:35Z H4ns: Shinmera: asdf comes with uiop, but you cannot rely on a specific version to be coming with your implementation.
2014-05-13T08:49:51Z Shinmera: Right
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2014-05-13T09:01:32Z splittist: whereas you can be absolutely certain that, if you're on windows, iolib won't work
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2014-05-13T09:12:21Z hlavaty: splittist: some iolib things might work even on win32 and win64 http://src.knowledgetools.de/tomas/winapi/index.html :-)
2014-05-13T09:13:46Z splittist: hlavaty: true (: but my possibly faulty understanding is that working-on-windows is not a goal of the iolib project.
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2014-05-13T09:15:08Z hlavaty: yeah maybe although http://common-lisp.net/project/iolib/ doesnt exclude windows
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2014-05-13T09:19:00Z splittist: hlavaty: well, it would be nice, if requiring lots of work, if it did. So perhaps I will not say anything further (:
2014-05-13T09:19:06Z hlavaty: on the other hand, how could iolib achieve it's goal "IOlib is to be a better and more modern I/O library than the standard Common Lisp library." without supporting non-posix io?
2014-05-13T09:20:24Z p_l: hlavaty: the problem is that I suspect proper knowledge of NT-related APIs is often even lower than POSIX, and barely anyone appears to know POSIX these days :>
2014-05-13T09:20:29Z H4ns: it is hard to imagine a good cross-platform i/o library.  and besides, without commercial support, no open source library will ever be "good" on windows.
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2014-05-13T09:22:13Z splittist: H4ns: why? Because "good" on windows means something else?
2014-05-13T09:22:28Z H4ns: i even find it difficult to imagine something based on posix to be "good", given that posix itself is not very nice.  to me, beach's approach of making posix completely available to cl seems to be the better approach.
2014-05-13T09:22:39Z hlavaty: i see the problems a bit somewhere else; mainy how could a io library be integrated into a lisp environment portably, so that for example control-c does the right thing?  this is unsolvable without help from implementations
2014-05-13T09:23:18Z H4ns: splittist: yes - because i/o is very system specific and it is rather hard to abstract away the system specifics in a meaningful fashion and still have something advanced.
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2014-05-13T09:23:45Z hlavaty: yes
2014-05-13T09:24:04Z p_l: NT I/O system for example prefers async behaviour over poll/select
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2014-05-13T09:24:27Z p_l: closer to AIO
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2014-05-13T12:50:52Z dim: I'm searching for CL systems to talk to either graphite or statsd, where mayby http/json is all I need (still need to review docs before I know), do you know of anything available already?
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2014-05-13T12:55:26Z brucem: dim: talking to Graphite is really easy, you can code it up faster than looking around for it. I haven't integrated with statsd, but IIRC, it is pretty easy too.
2014-05-13T12:55:57Z dim: thanks, that was my impression, but I think it's one of the first time I want to use such things and no lib already exists ;-)
2014-05-13T12:56:02Z dim: statsd is UDP
2014-05-13T12:56:11Z dim: I will need iolib or the like I guess
2014-05-13T12:56:19Z dim: usocket might be enough?
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2014-05-13T13:00:55Z hitecnologys: dim: don't use usocket, I assure you iolib is *much* better.
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2014-05-13T13:01:29Z hitecnologys: dim: I've tried using both but I personally find usocket kind of incomplete and ugly in certain aspects.
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2014-05-13T13:02:23Z hitecnologys: dim: nevertheless UDP is handled well by both of them, if you ever need to handle TCP, consider using iolib.
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2014-05-13T13:16:42Z aerique: does iolib work on windows?
2014-05-13T13:18:16Z Xach has been looking for an excuse to try basic-binary-ipc sometime
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2014-05-13T13:18:37Z hitecnologys: aerique: should do, but not without dirty hacks.
2014-05-13T13:19:29Z splittist: "11:13 AM <hlavaty> splittist: some iolib things might work even on win32 and win64 http://src.knowledgetools.de/tomas/winapi/index.html :-)"
2014-05-13T13:19:30Z aerique: hitecnologys: thanks, was wondering about that since i recently picked usocket because it was not obvious to me whether iolib would work on windows
2014-05-13T13:19:55Z hlavaty: this question pops up several times a day
2014-05-13T13:21:07Z hitecnologys: aerique: I see no particular reason why it won't work but, well, it's still Windows.
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2014-05-13T13:36:33Z oleo: morning
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2014-05-13T13:46:23Z Vampire0: Hi there. I have a question to lisppaste. Why is he not present in IRC anymore? I really miss him in #jedit
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2014-05-13T13:47:40Z p_l: Vampire0: it was abused, iirc
2014-05-13T13:47:50Z Vampire0: :-(
2014-05-13T13:48:31Z Vampire0: But it was super-handy. Please bring it back. Maybe add some strong capture to prevent abusal
2014-05-13T13:50:25Z Xach: Vampire0: the code is available from http://www.common-lisp.net/project/lisppaste/ if you'd like to run your own.
2014-05-13T13:51:28Z Vampire0: We don't have a server where it can run
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2014-05-13T13:54:29Z p_l: Vampire0: you can get one for $5/mo, it's not as much of a problem as it used to be, IMO
2014-05-13T13:56:01Z Vampire0: Well, you already run one and provided the service. ;-)
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2014-05-13T13:58:09Z hitecnologys: Grepping -- done. Sorting data -- done. I guess it's time for some graphplotting and textwriting.
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2014-05-13T13:58:47Z splittist: Perhaps someone will provide Lisppaste-as-a-service for the low, low price of $50/mo* * Support extra; Nein nein nein uptimes unguaranteed. Users must provide their own captcha. Void where prohibited.
2014-05-13T13:58:53Z H4ns: Vampire0: if someone here had the time to care for lisppaste, they'd do it.
2014-05-13T13:59:16Z H4ns: Vampire0: but as that is not the case, there is no point in begging.  if you want it, you'll need to make it happen yourself.
2014-05-13T13:59:49Z Vampire0: Give me access to your server and I do ;-)
2014-05-13T13:59:56Z hitecnologys: What?
2014-05-13T14:00:11Z Vampire0: besides that, I'm not begging, just asking
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2014-05-13T14:00:41Z hitecnologys: Are you serious? Server?
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2014-05-13T14:03:24Z Vampire0: hitecnologys, I asked for the lost ability of lisppaste to utilize IRC. H4ns said do it yourself. ;-)
2014-05-13T14:04:01Z Vampire0: of course I was not serious, you don't know me, why should you give me access to your server *g*
2014-05-13T14:04:16Z dlowe: I might do it, but the paste.lisp.org hostname is pretty neat.
2014-05-13T14:04:19Z hitecnologys: Vampire0: well, nobody's obviously going to give root access to a stranger.
2014-05-13T14:04:31Z H4ns: hitecnologys: hu? root access?
2014-05-13T14:04:56Z hitecnologys: H4ns: well, yeah, simple user access would suffice, I guess.
2014-05-13T14:05:06Z dlowe: not if they wanted port 80
2014-05-13T14:05:08Z Vampire0: hitecnologys, of course not, as I said, this was sarcasm
2014-05-13T14:05:42Z H4ns: i think you're all confused.  paste.lisp.org is working fine.  what is not working is the gateway to irc.
2014-05-13T14:06:05Z dlowe: I guess one could make another bot that simply polled for changes
2014-05-13T14:06:15Z dlowe: if one were so inclined
2014-05-13T14:06:16Z H4ns: but that could be implemented with a very small change to paste.lisp.org and an external gateway.
2014-05-13T14:06:20Z H4ns: right
2014-05-13T14:06:43Z dlowe: you'd still want to fix the spam problem first
2014-05-13T14:06:47Z H4ns: the small change would be to make the paste server signal the gateways so that irc messages are sent quickly.
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2014-05-13T14:12:24Z nyef: IIRC, the reason that the pastebot was disabled was that it was being used to spam the IRC channels.
2014-05-13T14:12:59Z nyef: ... As I see that dlowe mentions.
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2014-05-13T14:13:05Z Vampire0: A strong captcha like reCaptcha should improve this, shouldn't it?
2014-05-13T14:13:08Z Vampire0: :-9
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2014-05-13T14:15:13Z hitecnologys: reCaptcha? No, please, not again!
2014-05-13T14:15:36Z Vampire0: o_O
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2014-05-13T14:24:03Z Vampire0: well, it is really sad that you wont support it anymore
2014-05-13T14:24:07Z Vampire0: cu guys
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2014-05-13T14:32:23Z splittist: H4ns: as opposed to requiring gateways to poll the rss feed? (or xml-rpc?)
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2014-05-13T14:33:43Z H4ns: splittist: right - i mean, they can poll, but the server should probably block the requests for a while before returning nothings so that polling does not consume too many server side resources
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2014-05-13T14:34:03Z H4ns: splittist: if polling would be too slow, the real-time aspect would be los, making the whole thing pretty much useless.
2014-05-13T14:34:38Z splittist: H4ns: true enough. So a pub/sub-ish model. Zeromq again (:
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2014-05-13T14:35:35Z H4ns: splittist: yeah!  now all that is needed is someone who want's to actually implement something.
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2014-05-13T14:42:36Z rpg: Once upon a time there was a library for doing computations with units of measure in CL. Unfortunately, I've forgotten it, and googling just gives me false hits about unit testing. Anyone remember this library?
2014-05-13T14:43:54Z splittist: unit-formula ? http://quickdocs.org/unit-formula/
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2014-05-13T14:44:32Z rpg: this looks similar to clos-unit, which I just stumbled on in an old archive...
2014-05-13T14:44:35Z rpg: thanks, splittist
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2014-05-13T14:46:16Z rpg: ouch. Viral GPL. :-(
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2014-05-13T16:11:09Z oleo: today i tested a snippet from lazy lispers blog and gcl and sbcl fail after 25st iteration....
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2014-05-13T16:11:27Z oleo: must be some memory issue, stack overflow most probably.....
2014-05-13T16:11:53Z pjb: snippet url?
2014-05-13T16:11:56Z oleo: wait
2014-05-13T16:12:23Z oleo: http://lazy-lisper.blogspot.de/2010/06/one-of-interesting-features-of-haskell.html
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2014-05-13T16:17:27Z pjb: It doesn't fail, it's just slow.
2014-05-13T16:17:35Z pjb: on ccl.
2014-05-13T16:19:03Z oleo: hmmm
2014-05-13T16:19:36Z oleo: will try the other approaches too....
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2014-05-13T16:21:09Z pjb: oleo: there are two calls to fmap, so it's O(n²).
2014-05-13T16:21:27Z oleo: well i'll come back to that later .....
2014-05-13T16:21:47Z oleo: it's erroring here.....(sbcl + gcl)
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2014-05-13T16:26:14Z pjb: oleo: Add this at the beginning: (ql:quickload "com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp.stepper") (defpackage "DE.BLOGSPOT.LAZY-LISPER.FIB" (:use "CL-STEPPER")) (in-package "DE.BLOGSPOT.LAZY-LISPER.FIB") and try: (step (take 100 (fmap #'print (fib))) :trace) ; and see the problem.
2014-05-13T16:26:14Z pjb:  
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2014-05-13T16:42:17Z Bike: i'm curious what the problem is, as someone who doesn't want to bother copying all this
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2014-05-13T16:51:41Z oleo: ok it's running with the stepper now
2014-05-13T16:51:49Z oleo: but much much slower....
2014-05-13T16:52:10Z oleo: i'll tell you when it finishes
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2014-05-13T16:54:52Z pjb: oleo: It will be very long.  But you should notice something very soon:  the depth keeps increasing.
2014-05-13T16:54:55Z pjb: This is a bad sign!
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2014-05-13T16:58:44Z oleo: it still runs and i got to 987 just
2014-05-13T16:58:45Z oleo: lol
2014-05-13T17:01:25Z pjb: Look at the leaf calls. You should find calls that are repeating.
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2014-05-13T17:29:54Z hlavaty: oleo: better and more transparent code would be http://paste.lisp.org/display/142533
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2014-05-13T17:34:44Z oleo: hlavaty: hmm yes i read the generators vs. lazy blog too....
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2014-05-13T17:37:09Z oleo: so many paradigms.....
2014-05-13T17:37:27Z hlavaty: well you could think of those as the same thing
2014-05-13T17:38:07Z hlavaty: it is the lambda that "creates lazines", and funcall which forces the computation
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2014-05-13T17:40:28Z hlavaty: notice that the closure is used the same way in the blog post and in my paste; the blog posts just obscures the nature of the problem with unecessary syntax (macros) and inefficiencies
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2014-05-13T17:44:37Z oleo: and the one in paip pushes the laziness up to the level of structs.
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2014-05-13T17:44:52Z oleo: hmmm
2014-05-13T17:45:07Z oleo: and i suppose there's one for classes too....
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2014-05-13T17:52:05Z schoppenhauer: does anyone know who maintains cl-yaclml?
2014-05-13T17:52:22Z hlavaty: one could implement struct with closures, it's an implementation detail; important is that there is something waiting to be computed so that needs to be stored somewhere, the state
2014-05-13T17:53:05Z marsam is now known as marsbot
2014-05-13T17:53:37Z schoppenhauer: because I have some adaptions to yaclml.
2014-05-13T17:54:03Z schoppenhauer: and I could just fork it, but probably nobody would mind to merge them
2014-05-13T17:54:49Z hlavaty: schoppenhauer: doesnt the asd file say that?
2014-05-13T17:55:02Z pjb: So we were 79 participants to ELS-2014.
2014-05-13T17:55:47Z Krystof: not bad for a room with a maximum capacity of 70 :)
2014-05-13T17:56:02Z schoppenhauer: hm. there is bese-devel@common-lisp.net... but these mailing lists are seldom really used.
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2014-05-13T17:56:39Z pjb: that's 19% of #lisp :-)
2014-05-13T17:57:08Z hlavaty: schoppenhauer: http://www.cliki.net/marco%20baringer he does photography these days iirc
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2014-05-13T17:57:49Z hlavaty: and ruby :-)
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2014-05-13T18:01:04Z schoppenhauer: kthx
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2014-05-13T18:38:34Z p0a: Hello I am using Emacs/SLIME. When I write an unknown function, for example (foobar:bazquux 0), slime just hangs
2014-05-13T18:38:49Z p0a: this does not happen if I don't specifically use a namespace
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2014-05-13T18:42:31Z p0a: Also for some reason when I invoke SLIME, sbcl does not read its .sbclrc. It does if I invoke sbcl manually
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2014-05-13T18:44:17Z Xach: p0a: how did you get slime?
2014-05-13T18:44:43Z p0a: from github
2014-05-13T18:45:03Z Xach: p0a: how did you set it up?
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2014-05-13T18:45:40Z p0a: Extracted and added these lines to my .emacs.el http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Installation.html#Installation
2014-05-13T18:46:27Z Xach: Hmm. What version of SBCL are you using?
2014-05-13T18:46:34Z p0a: Ah. I installed it from inside SLIME again and I think that this time I won't have problem number 2)
2014-05-13T18:46:36Z p0a: Slime 2.6
2014-05-13T18:46:46Z p0a: but it still bugs me that slime hangs on (foobar:bazquux 0)
2014-05-13T18:48:55Z Xach: What version of SBCL are you using?
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2014-05-13T18:50:03Z p0a: SBCL 1.1.12
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2014-05-13T18:51:48Z Xach: Hanging is bad. Are you in the slime repl or *inferior-lisp* when that happens?
2014-05-13T18:52:06Z Xach: I'm just guessing about stuff, by the way. Someone else might have a clearer idea, but I'm just trying to get more info.
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2014-05-13T18:53:12Z p0a: the buffer says *inferior-lisp*
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2014-05-13T18:53:49Z p0a: how do I enter the slime repl?
2014-05-13T18:54:11Z p0a: I'm a newbie myself
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2014-05-13T18:58:06Z Xach: p0a: In .emacs I do something like (setq slime-contribs '(slime-fancy)) before starting slime.
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2014-05-13T18:58:50Z Xach: What I really do is use quicklisp and use (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper") and follow what it prints after that. But it should work fine to load it many other ways too.
2014-05-13T18:59:19Z Xach: p0a: just curious, if you start sbcl from a shell, and evaluate (foobar:bazquux 0), do you get the sbcl debugger?
2014-05-13T18:59:25Z p0a: yes
2014-05-13T18:59:40Z p0a: Thanks for the fancy hint
2014-05-13T18:59:43Z p0a: works nicelyu
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2014-05-13T19:00:49Z p0a: Oh so the order of installation is Emacs -> Quicklisp -> Slime
2014-05-13T19:01:14Z p0a: Also, why doesn't my lisp code get indented properly in lisp-mode?
2014-05-13T19:02:19Z oleo: did you activate lisp-mode ?
2014-05-13T19:02:43Z oleo: select the whole buffer and reindent the region.....
2014-05-13T19:03:01Z Xach: p0a: You are leaving out the most important piece: a lisp implementation, like SBCL.
2014-05-13T19:03:19Z p0a: Yeah I forgot that :P
2014-05-13T19:03:26Z Xach: Quicklisp runs on the Lisp implementation, not on slime or emacs.
2014-05-13T19:03:29Z oleo: and what is your file suffixes ?
2014-05-13T19:03:33Z oleo: use .lisp
2014-05-13T19:03:35Z p0a: I did activate it
2014-05-13T19:03:39Z p0a: oh
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2014-05-13T19:04:07Z oleo: or add the file suffix to the recognition stuff for that mode.....
2014-05-13T19:04:10Z p0a: For example C-x C-e doesn't work either
2014-05-13T19:04:25Z p0a: complains about end-of-file when the file is (+ 1 2 3) and the cursor is positioned at the beginning of the file
2014-05-13T19:04:43Z p0a: I remember some way to automatically indent the code
2014-05-13T19:04:45Z oleo: p0a: better ask in #emacs
2014-05-13T19:04:48Z p0a: right
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2014-05-13T19:06:18Z p0a: Xach: the slime repl does not hang with (foo:bar 0) :)
2014-05-13T19:06:20Z p0a: thanks
2014-05-13T19:06:26Z Xach: p0a: I bind enter to newline-and-indent in lisp mode.
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2014-05-13T19:06:39Z p0a: Ah right
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2014-05-13T19:06:59Z Xach: I also use paredit.
2014-05-13T19:07:00Z uzo: i'm suffering from eyebleed, code so bad it hurts the eyes and makes it bleed
2014-05-13T19:08:39Z Xach: uzo: that is quite a horrible-sounding thing.
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2014-05-13T19:48:31Z andreh: Is there a way to shadow a reader macro defined in a named-readtable that will be merged?
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2014-05-13T19:49:52Z oleo: does (shadow package-qualified-symbol) not work ?
2014-05-13T19:50:00Z oleo: wait you said readtable
2014-05-13T19:50:19Z andreh: Yes, in a defreadtable definition
2014-05-13T19:50:33Z oleo: so *readtable* will be bound to it
2014-05-13T19:50:58Z andreh: The best solution I came up with was:
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2014-05-13T19:51:44Z andreh: (:macro-char #\{ nil)
2014-05-13T19:52:27Z oleo: (set-syntax-from-char ?
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2014-05-13T19:55:39Z andreh: Nice!
2014-05-13T19:55:43Z andreh: That'll do!
2014-05-13T19:55:44Z andreh: Thanks =]
2014-05-13T19:55:46Z oleo: ok
2014-05-13T19:56:08Z oleo: i thought maybe it won't work and you have to bind the package around that....
2014-05-13T19:57:07Z oleo: err *package*
2014-05-13T19:57:15Z andreh: I didn't know this function. I'll try it up.
2014-05-13T19:57:19Z oleo: ok
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2014-05-13T19:57:26Z oleo: i use it for unsetting stuff too....
2014-05-13T19:57:46Z oleo: very handy
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2014-05-13T20:39:46Z didi: I'm having fun trying to write a function which uses an accumulator <http://pastebin.kde.org/pxw1xp50m/bl1otr>. If one is familiar with PAIP, I'm trying to mimic `flatten' at page 329. The problem is, I'm using `reverse' on the row. Does anyone know how to get rid of it? (the other one is that I think I'm doing it wrongly, of course)
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2014-05-13T20:41:48Z didi: Heh, I just saw that I don't need to use &optional.
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2014-05-13T20:52:24Z Poenikatu: How is it possible to print a negative binary number (fixnum) as a pattern of 32 0's and 1's as an unsigned integer?
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2014-05-13T20:53:00Z Xach: Poenikatu: (format t "~32,'0B" (ldb (byte 32 0) <your negative number>))
2014-05-13T20:53:06Z Poenikatu: I want to mimic the C expression '~0
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2014-05-13T20:53:34Z Poenikatu: Xach: Aha! Thanks a lot. I had forgotten ldb et al.
2014-05-13T20:53:50Z Xach: (logand #xFFFFFFFF <your negative number>) would work too.
2014-05-13T20:53:52Z Xach: Truly there are many options.
2014-05-13T20:53:54Z nyef: Or MASK-FIELD, or LOGAND, or...
2014-05-13T20:54:00Z Xach: err, #xFFFF
2014-05-13T20:54:16Z nyef: No, you were right the first time with #xFFFFFFFF.
2014-05-13T20:54:24Z nyef: #xFFFF is 16.
2014-05-13T20:54:34Z Xach: Thanks. I ffffforgot how to count.
2014-05-13T20:54:50Z nyef: Heh.
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2014-05-13T20:57:44Z stassats: (logand (ldb (byte 32 0) (lognot 0)) -3)
2014-05-13T20:57:59Z stassats: mask-field is missing somewhere
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2014-05-13T21:55:01Z dim: clhs mask-field
2014-05-13T21:55:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mask_f.htm
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2014-05-13T23:51:57Z jebes: is there a built in function to see how many times something appears in a list?
2014-05-13T23:52:15Z pillton: COUNT and COUNT-IF
2014-05-13T23:52:18Z jebes: thanks
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2014-05-14T00:05:11Z jebes: honestly, if I knew the CL stdlib really well I doubt I would have to even program anymore, it would already have been done for me
2014-05-14T00:05:48Z Xach: Some still remains to be done.
2014-05-14T00:05:58Z Xach: locats don't render themselves
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2014-05-14T00:12:55Z WarWeasle: How do I make a CLOS method that propagates to the child classes? I have a method for a parent class, but when I call it on a child I get an error.
2014-05-14T00:13:28Z stassats: you are doing something wrong
2014-05-14T00:13:32Z jebes: are you sure you're subclassing the child class from the parent class
2014-05-14T00:14:08Z WarWeasle: stassats: Then my inheritance chain is broken.
2014-05-14T00:14:12Z Xach: WarWeasle: paste a transcript to paste.lisp.org with some details and you will get more help.
2014-05-14T00:14:30Z WarWeasle: Xach: Just a moment...
2014-05-14T00:16:23Z WarWeasle: Xach: And that's all it took. I forgot to connect one of the classes three levels down.
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2014-05-14T00:16:41Z WarWeasle: (NOT my design. It's for bullet)
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2014-05-14T00:17:34Z WarWeasle: Thank you. I really need to buy a rubber ducky.
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2014-05-14T00:19:29Z jebes: wut
2014-05-14T00:19:46Z Bike: that joke about having to explain what you're programming to an inanimate object.
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2014-05-14T00:20:03Z WarWeasle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging
2014-05-14T00:21:45Z jebes: oh...
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2014-05-14T00:31:18Z Zhivago: You can also use animate objects.
2014-05-14T00:31:30Z Zhivago: Mexican jumping beans would probably work well.
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2014-05-14T00:33:43Z WarWeasle: Zhivago: Anything really. Just the fact I had to explain it made me figure it out.
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2014-05-14T00:34:46Z pjb: There's also M-x doctor RET
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2014-05-14T00:36:36Z WarWeasle: pjb: You mean psychoanalyze-pinhead?
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2014-05-14T00:45:40Z pjb: WarWeasle: yes, but you can use it as a rubber duck debugging device.
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2014-05-14T00:52:49Z Vivitron: pjb: The original eliza paper stresses that the rogerian psychotherapy script is meant to be only one example of the sorts of phrases the technique can be seeded with. It might be interesting to make a script for discussing bugged lisp programs instead:)
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2014-05-14T00:53:37Z pjb: Vivitron: definitely.
2014-05-14T00:53:56Z Bike: how does nth's arguments going the other way make you feel
2014-05-14T00:54:13Z Zhivago: Dizzy and nauseus.
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2014-05-14T01:01:17Z Ucker: PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL! 23502 PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL!
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2014-05-14T01:01:22Z Ucker: F{}CK YOU ALL!!! F{}CK YOU!!! F{}CK YOU ALL!!!F{}CK YOU ALL!!!F{}CK YOU ALL!!!F{}CK YOU ALL!!! 1809 F{}CK YOU!!!
2014-05-14T01:01:27Z Ucker: MOTHER F{}CKERS!!! 3728 MOTHER F{}CKERS!!! MOTHER F{}CKERS!!! MOTHER F{}CKERS!!! MOTHER F{}CKERS!!! MOTHER F{}CKERS!!! MOTHER F{}CKERS!!! MOTHER F{}CKERS!!!
2014-05-14T01:01:32Z Ucker: F{}CKERS F{}CK F{}CKERS F{}CK F{}CK F{}CKERS F{}CKING BITCHES F{}CK F{}CK YOU ALL F{}CKERS F{}CK YOU ALL F{}CKERS F{}CK YOU ALL 86142 F{}CKERS
2014-05-14T01:01:37Z Ucker: PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL! 29457 PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL!
2014-05-14T01:01:42Z Ucker: F{}CK YOU ALL!!!F{}CK YOU ALL!!!F{}CK YOU ALL!!! F{}CK YOU BITCH!!! F{}CK YOU ALL!!! 90586 F{}CK YOU BITCH!!!
2014-05-14T01:01:47Z Ucker: F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! 65422 F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL!
2014-05-14T01:01:48Z jebes: this sure is interesting
2014-05-14T01:01:52Z Ucker: 38521 F{}CKING BITCHES F{}CKING BITCHES F{}CKING BITCHES F{}CKING BITCHES F{}CKING BITCHES F{}CKING BITCHES F{}CKING BITCHES F{}CKING BITCHES
2014-05-14T01:01:57Z Ucker: F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! 76050 F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL! F{}CK YOU ALL!
2014-05-14T01:01:58Z pillton: p_l help!
2014-05-14T01:02:02Z Ucker: F{}CK 72302 F{}CK F{}CK F{}CK F{}CK F{}CK F{}CK F{}CK F{}CK F{}CK F{}CK F{}CK F{}CK F{}CK F{}CK F{}CK F{}CK F{}CK F{}CK F{}CK F{}CK F{}CK F{}CK
2014-05-14T01:02:07Z Ucker: F{}CKERS F{}CK F{}CKERS F{}CK F{}CK F{}CKERS F{}CKING BITCHES F{}CK F{}CK YOU ALL F{}CKERS F{}CK YOU ALL F{}CKERS F{}CK YOU ALL 63113 F{}CKERS
2014-05-14T01:02:12Z Ucker: F{}CK YOU ALL!!! F{}CK YOU!!! F{}CK YOU ALL!!!F{}CK YOU ALL!!!F{}CK YOU ALL!!!F{}CK YOU ALL!!! 97975 F{}CK YOU!!!
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2014-05-14T01:02:24Z WarWeasle: Philosophy is over there -> #philosophy
2014-05-14T01:02:27Z Bike: just /ignore them when they come around
2014-05-14T01:02:33Z jebes: bwhahaha
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2014-05-14T01:02:49Z Ucker: F{}CK YOU ALL!!! F{}CK YOU!!! F{}CK YOU ALL!!!F{}CK YOU ALL!!!F{}CK YOU ALL!!!F{}CK YOU ALL!!! 60018 F{}CK YOU!!!
2014-05-14T01:02:54Z Ucker: PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL! 53018 PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL! PHUCK U ALL!
2014-05-14T01:02:59Z Ucker: 72446 F{}CKERS 40614 F{}CKERS 51137 F{}CKERS 10570 F{}CKERS F{}CKERS F{}CKERS F{}CKERS F{}CKERS F{}CKERS F{}CKERS
2014-05-14T01:03:00Z ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago
2014-05-14T01:03:04Z Zhivago has set mode +q Ucker!*@*
2014-05-14T01:03:14Z pillton: Bike: Thanks. I didn't know about /ignore.
2014-05-14T01:03:21Z jebes: nor did I, thanks
2014-05-14T01:03:31Z Bike: wow, irc must be unpleasant like that :P
2014-05-14T01:03:41Z didi: Maybe it's a new programming language. It has braces.
2014-05-14T01:03:46Z Zhivago has set mode +q *!*@109.201.154.199
2014-05-14T01:04:03Z Zhivago: Hmm, curious.
2014-05-14T01:04:04Z pillton: Zhivago: Thanks too.
2014-05-14T01:04:09Z phadthai: irc "numbers station" message
2014-05-14T01:04:16Z Zhivago: I guess they're shy about writing out 'fuck'.
2014-05-14T01:04:27Z didi: Too agressive.
2014-05-14T01:05:22Z zRecursive: Absolutely aggressive !
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2014-05-14T01:06:27Z Zhivago: Well, mildly amusing, I guess.
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2014-05-14T03:23:11Z quazimod1: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142540
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2014-05-14T03:24:51Z quazimod1: so here I am passing 5 things to (draw-everything), which is just a ... convenience wrapper so that I don't have all those forms elsewhere
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2014-05-14T03:26:03Z quazimod1: it feels like I'm violating single responsibility, or making some other mistake. What happens when the program becomes much more sophisticated, does (draw-everything) take 25 arguments?
2014-05-14T03:26:07Z quazimod1: or whatever
2014-05-14T03:27:06Z quazimod1: maybe I need to be storing the data for those functions elsewhere, though then I don't know how 'correct' that is in a functional sense
2014-05-14T03:27:14Z quazimod1: <- struggling with fundamentals :/
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2014-05-14T03:35:55Z pillton: If you are writing lots of functions which take the same set of arguments where the arguments "really" belong together than wrap them up in a struct/class.
2014-05-14T03:36:09Z Zhivago: Or use specials.
2014-05-14T03:36:48Z pillton: BUT, when writing helper functions for DRAW-EVERYTHING than they should only accept what they need.
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2014-05-14T03:42:34Z pillton: It is tempting to pass the instance of your struct/class to everything, but in my experience it creates extensibility problems.
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2014-05-14T05:19:21Z quazimod1: pillton: and what hapens when the set of arguments do 'belong with each other' in this case here, for DRAW-EVERYITHNG, but in another case, such as (DO-STUFF-WITH-QUERY-OBJECT), the query object isn't really related to the other things that may be in the struct. I suppose I'll have to have a struct of objects and then be careful where I pass what :/
2014-05-14T05:20:30Z quazimod1: I dno, i just keep thinking what happens in a tree of function calls where some function deep down inside needs stuff that is totally unrelated to the functions that preceed it. I'd have to pass it in with the original function call
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2014-05-14T05:21:19Z quazimod1: so if A calls B calls C calls D, and D needs things unrelated to what A B and C do, then I still have to pass the data  down   the stack.
2014-05-14T05:21:31Z quazimod1: probably bad design
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2014-05-14T05:23:14Z pillton: If composition of instances makes sense then you are stuck with it.
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2014-05-14T05:23:49Z pillton: It is hard to comment without knowing more about the problem, but alas, I don't have the time to hear it.
2014-05-14T05:24:57Z pillton: Write some documentation to see if articulating your thoughts sheds light on what you want to do.
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2014-05-14T05:29:47Z quazimod1: hrm ok
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2014-05-14T05:30:03Z quazimod1: I've run into this problem before, and usually it had to do with side effects
2014-05-14T05:30:15Z quazimod1: so I figure I need to get my thoughts together first
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2014-05-14T05:34:49Z quazimod1: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/emacs-paper.html#SEC18 <- something like this
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2014-05-14T05:37:24Z pillton: I fail to see how this is related to what you have said previously.
2014-05-14T05:39:02Z quazimod1: pillton: well it's a similar problem, to get the data down to C you need to modify B and possibly A. Special variables kind of take care of that but at the same time scare me, and I did find that as I added functions to  DRAW-EVERYTHING I had to go and modify its lambda list, along with any instance where it was being called
2014-05-14T05:39:17Z quazimod1: so I have a fundamental design problem for which I nee to be more smart
2014-05-14T05:39:35Z Zhivago: Getting more smart is trickier -- I'd focus on getting less stupid.
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2014-05-14T05:40:31Z Zhivago: Who knows what D will require when called via A?
2014-05-14T05:41:12Z quazimod1: uhuh
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2014-05-14T07:06:50Z protist: does anyone here have experience using Heroku with Common Lisp?
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2014-05-14T07:41:14Z splittist: protist: I don't. Did this blog post help? http://kuomarc.wordpress.com/2012/05/13/12-steps-to-build-and-deploy-common-lisp-in-the-cloud-and-comparing-rails/
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2014-05-14T07:42:16Z protist: splittist: read it and worked with some code and the instructions that the tutorial is based on
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2014-05-14T07:42:44Z protist: splittist: get a 'Please set CL_IMPL: heroku config:add CL_IMPL={sbcl|ccl}.' error
2014-05-14T07:42:49Z protist: splittist: when i know it is set
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2014-05-14T07:43:04Z protist: splittist: but i have to get off here now....may come back some time soon to work on this more :)
2014-05-14T07:43:09Z protist: splittist: thank you for the link
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2014-05-14T07:46:54Z splittist: Since fare's livejournal wont' let me leave an anonymous comment, I will note that the year in the first clause is wrong here.
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2014-05-14T08:25:15Z samebchase: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142545 I know I can just do (merge 'vector a b #'<), but if I needed to write this fn, what are some ways of making this more idiomatic CL?
2014-05-14T08:26:36Z Cymew: Anyone here that have been told "But have a REST API for that, use it!" that can point me in any direction of examples of what the heck that means I need to do?
2014-05-14T08:26:45Z dim: idiomatic CL is merge, I guess
2014-05-14T08:26:49Z Cymew: s/have/we have/
2014-05-14T08:27:06Z dim: Cymew: use drakma and yason?
2014-05-14T08:27:25Z Cymew: Maybe, I have no idea of what REST API means...
2014-05-14T08:27:41Z dim: lookup 'HTTP REST'
2014-05-14T08:27:43Z Cymew: I'm really starting from 0
2014-05-14T08:27:45Z H4ns: Cymew: did you try the google thing?  it is a search engine, very helpful.
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2014-05-14T08:29:01Z dim: duckduckgo is a nice alternative if you want to ensure a reasonnable privacy policy
2014-05-14T08:29:02Z H4ns: Cymew: basically, you can type any term that you like to find information on into the input field on http://google.com/ and the search engine will try to point you to pages containing information about those terms.
2014-05-14T08:29:26Z Cymew: Yeah, I found a bunch of hits for the definition of REST and I didn't get the point, or what it meant...
2014-05-14T08:29:36Z Cymew: Maybe I just need to read more...
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2014-05-14T08:29:56Z H4ns: Cymew: yes.  read more.
2014-05-14T08:30:02Z dim: the duck just led me to http://rest.elkstein.org/ which might be the text you want to read here
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2014-05-14T08:43:15Z samebchase: dim: of course. No one should have to write all this, but what I'm trying to get at is: What is the CL way of writing this while/for loop heavy C-code?
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2014-05-14T08:54:28Z H4ns: samebchase: i'd suggest that you write either cl or loop, but not mix both
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2014-05-14T08:55:09Z H4ns: samebchase: read up on the WITH, DO, IF clauses in loop
2014-05-14T08:55:43Z H4ns: samebchase: and i'd also not try to save on lines.  (progn (setf ...) (incf)) is an awful read.
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2014-05-14T08:56:44Z H4ns: samebchase: maybe you also want ACROSS
2014-05-14T08:57:36Z loke: Cymew: when people say REST API, they really mean "you can use HTTP to connect to URL's and make the remote end do stuff and give you back information"
2014-05-14T08:59:48Z Cymew: loke: I found some better docs, and apart from the mumblings about statelessness as if it was something new, that seems indeed to be the whole deal. I'm amost disappointed.
2014-05-14T08:59:54Z samebchase: H4ns: thanks. I'll check them out and see if I can improve this.
2014-05-14T09:00:37Z Zhivago: It's probably closer to 'think of the http server as a database'.
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2014-05-14T10:09:01Z tuturto: there's a lot more in REST than that, but the problem is that it got sort of popular
2014-05-14T10:09:21Z tuturto: and suddenly everybody were making APIs and calling them restful
2014-05-14T10:09:54Z tuturto: so the whole thing got muddled up quite a bit
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2014-05-14T10:11:39Z p_l: it didn't help that many people thought that HTTP had only GET and POST
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2014-05-14T10:12:14Z tuturto: p_l: true that
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2014-05-14T10:16:18Z gofk: Is there a better way to make this function fast without all the THEs? http://paste.lisp.org/display/142547
2014-05-14T10:17:58Z gofk: Note it is calculating (j * (j - 1))/2 + i where j > i, in case it's not clear (which it isn't)
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2014-05-14T10:23:19Z dim: add a comment to spell that out, maybe?
2014-05-14T10:23:32Z dim: about optimizing and the, I don't have an answer, sorry
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2014-05-14T10:36:29Z splittist: gofk: do you have to use ASH, or does your compiler work that out for itself?
2014-05-14T10:36:35Z phadthai: Cymew, tuturto: we could call it a fashion :)
2014-05-14T10:36:48Z Shinmera: p_l: It also doesn't help that HTML forms only really accept GET and POST. (I often get in a situation where it would be perfect to use the existing rest api for forms as well, but noo..)
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2014-05-14T10:38:54Z phadthai: gofk: it would be possible, if needed (and done with care), for a macro to insert such annotations too
2014-05-14T10:43:38Z gofk: splittist: the asm is shorter with the ash instead of (/ fixnum 2), plus it needs one less THE
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2014-05-14T10:44:40Z phadthai: gofk: example of what I meant at http://paste.lisp.org/display/142547#1
2014-05-14T10:45:35Z gofk: Kind of odd actually, sbcl does replace (/ fixnum 2) with a shift in the asm, but it does some other call that isn't present in the ash version
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2014-05-14T10:48:14Z Cymew: phadthai: I guess we could...
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2014-05-14T10:56:07Z gofk: phadthai: interesting, I'll think about it, it's a shame to reduce the readability of something like that so much I think
2014-05-14T10:56:46Z gofk: I just noticed sbcl uses three MOVs and a temp register to do the ROTATEF, I wonder why it doesn't use XCHG
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2014-05-14T11:01:55Z loke: gofk: That's because rotatef is a macro that expands into a set of setq's
2014-05-14T11:02:07Z loke: try (macroexpand '(rotatef x y)) and you'll see
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2014-05-14T11:03:42Z loke: I suppose you could create a deftransform that deals with specific case of two arguments being variables
2014-05-14T11:03:47Z gofk: Yeah, I know, I think gcc is able to see certain kinds of "intent" and will do an xchg in certain cases, I suppose that is a pretty advance feature though
2014-05-14T11:04:12Z loke: Optimising for this specific case isn't that difficult. As I see it, you only need one deftransform
2014-05-14T11:04:22Z loke: You should ask on #sbcl about this
2014-05-14T11:05:09Z gofk: what is deftransform?
2014-05-14T11:05:56Z loke: deftransform is an SBCL function used to transform one form to another. It's kinda like a very specialised, but flexible, kind of macro
2014-05-14T11:06:37Z loke: For example, look at the source code in the file srctran.lisp (do you have it?)
2014-05-14T11:07:14Z loke: On line 3603 in my source tree, there is a deftransofrm that optimises the case where you add a number to zero (i.e. no need to do anything)
2014-05-14T11:07:55Z loke: It basically says that when there is a call to + where one of the argument is an exact number and the other is the number zero, then remove the call and replace it with the value itself
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2014-05-14T11:09:02Z loke: However... Now that I think about it... Deftransforms are applied after macroexpansion...
2014-05-14T11:10:04Z loke: Ouch... I think you need to ask the people on #sbcl about this. My SBCL internals skills are exhausted at this point
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2014-05-14T11:12:38Z gofk: Interesting
2014-05-14T11:13:33Z gofk: It needs to match a more general pattern that that, though
2014-05-14T11:13:46Z gofk: I think I might just put this one down to the cost o using a HLL :P
2014-05-14T11:14:11Z gofk: Even in C you have to accept you don't get to XCHG and stuff after all
2014-05-14T11:14:47Z loke: Well, I think the solution probably lies in adding some logic to the rotatef macro to emit a special internal function in that case, which then emits the xhcg instruction
2014-05-14T11:14:58Z loke: That's my guess.
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2014-05-14T11:15:10Z loke: But again, I'm the wrong person to tell you
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2014-05-14T11:38:27Z ggole: xchg probably isn't what you want anyway
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2014-05-14T12:56:20Z gofk: ggole: why is xchg not what I want?
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2014-05-14T13:22:45Z razieliyo: hi
2014-05-14T13:24:49Z razieliyo: errr, I have to make an "ant colony optimization" algorithm, and I'm wondering if lisp could be a good language for it
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2014-05-14T13:25:23Z razieliyo: I have little experience with lisp, for a long time but in spare times
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2014-05-14T13:25:27Z nyef: ... Wasn't there an ICFP contest about that a few years back? Find it, and use whatever the winning team used. d-:
2014-05-14T13:26:09Z razieliyo: nyef: is that to me?
2014-05-14T13:26:14Z razieliyo: guess not
2014-05-14T13:26:21Z H4ns: razieliyo: yes.  and yes.
2014-05-14T13:26:28Z razieliyo: haha, okay, sorry
2014-05-14T13:26:29Z nyef: Yes, it was to you.
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2014-05-14T13:26:38Z razieliyo: nydel: fine, thank you, I'll check
2014-05-14T13:26:52Z razieliyo: I think it could be a good place to make something real with haskell
2014-05-14T13:26:55Z razieliyo: huh
2014-05-14T13:26:57Z razieliyo: lisp I meant =D
2014-05-14T13:27:16Z H4ns: razieliyo: something real, are you an ant?
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2014-05-14T13:28:45Z razieliyo: nyef: the first team used perl
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2014-05-14T13:28:46Z razieliyo: haha
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2014-05-14T13:29:27Z nyef: I'm half surprised the 2014 ICFP contest site isn't up yet.
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2014-05-14T13:29:48Z stassats: it's the new contest, find the site
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2014-05-14T13:31:11Z razieliyo: http://weitz.de/aco/ lel
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2014-05-14T13:58:10Z dim: it looks like when starting hunchentoot more than one, on different ports, within the same lisp image, they all get confused (I can access services on either ports, or when using same URL to dispatch on, whatever is loaded last will take the query)
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2014-05-14T13:58:38Z dim: an I doing something wrong I need to check, or is it expected that you can't open several ports on several applications within the same lisp image?
2014-05-14T13:58:48Z stassats: you are doing wrong something
2014-05-14T13:58:55Z H4ns: dim: you can't have a different set of easy-handlers on different ports
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2014-05-14T14:03:33Z oleo: morning
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2014-05-14T14:25:06Z dim: H4ns: oh, that explains then, I'm only using easy-handlers now
2014-05-14T14:25:09Z dim: thanks
2014-05-14T14:25:36Z dim: it's not crucial that I can do that, by the way, it just makes it easier when working on several items at once
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2014-05-14T16:23:09Z dim: is there any low level functions to check against a lambda list at run time?
2014-05-14T16:23:35Z stassats: what does that even mean?
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2014-05-14T16:24:01Z H4ns: dim: are you looking for destructuring-bind?
2014-05-14T16:24:31Z dim: H4ns: yeah, but I want to use it within a macro, so that (&optional foo) is a parameter that I have
2014-05-14T16:24:46Z dim: stassats: sorry about that, I'm confused, now you are too
2014-05-14T16:24:55Z H4ns: dim: i'm confused now as well
2014-05-14T16:25:00Z dim: I have (let ((f '(&optional name)) (a '("plop"))) `(lambda () (destructuring-bind ,f ',a ',a))) now
2014-05-14T16:25:03Z dim: if that helps
2014-05-14T16:25:38Z dim: my macro looks like (define-command (("config") (&optional name)) "docstring" code)
2014-05-14T16:26:04Z dim: I would like to be able, at run time, to match real command line parameters against the ordinary lambda list provided
2014-05-14T16:26:40Z dim: (ignore-errors (funcall (compile nil (lambda ...)))) would be an approach
2014-05-14T16:27:02Z H4ns: i still don't understand how destructuring-bind does not work for you
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2014-05-14T16:28:30Z |3b|: you can't just use it as an actual lambda list?
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2014-05-14T16:29:27Z |3b|: also, why extra parens around name and arglist, instead of just (define-command "config" (&optional name) ...) ?
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2014-05-14T16:31:37Z H4ns: i'd also loose the "s
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2014-05-14T16:32:09Z dim: back
2014-05-14T16:32:31Z dim: it could be (define-command (("config" "get") (name)) ...) too
2014-05-14T16:33:21Z |3b| would probably still leave the default case as "config", and only add () when it is multiple tokens, though that would make the macro a bit more complicated
2014-05-14T16:33:35Z |3b|: wouldn't add the extra () in either case though
2014-05-14T16:34:03Z dim: yeah, but it made it simple
2014-05-14T16:34:50Z dim: I don't see how to use destructuring-bind directly here because the lists are available in bindings, that I have to evaluate before giving to destructuring-bind
2014-05-14T16:36:25Z dim: (let ((f '(&optional name)) (a '("plop"))) (funcall (compile nil `(lambda () (destructuring-bind ,f ',a t))))) works as I need, except for some compilation warnings about unused variables
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2014-05-14T16:42:05Z |3b|: if you know the list at compile time, destructure it then
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2014-05-14T16:44:42Z dim: I can only destructure it against real parameters, and those I only know at run time
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2014-05-14T16:46:29Z |3b|: do you pass those parameters to a function, or do you have to call something to get them?
2014-05-14T16:46:35Z dim: (destructuring-match '(&optional name) '("plop"))
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2014-05-14T16:46:39Z dim: I have a working thingy
2014-05-14T16:46:58Z |3b|: so you also don't have the lambda list until runtime?
2014-05-14T16:47:14Z dim: I have the lambda list at compile time, yes
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2014-05-14T16:53:51Z dim: yeah it works as I wanted now
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2014-05-14T16:54:16Z dim: using ignore-error, funcall, compile, lambda, destructuring-bind
2014-05-14T16:54:28Z dim: not sure about being able to make it simple
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2014-05-14T16:54:58Z |3b|: that sounds excessive, can you paste some sample usage and what it should do somewhere?
2014-05-14T16:57:42Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pginstall/blob/master/src/main/cli.lisp
2014-05-14T16:57:55Z dim: that's the unwieldy beast of code I'm using it in
2014-05-14T16:58:36Z dim: as much as “it's not pretty but it works is a lame excuse”, that's all I have to explain the current code there
2014-05-14T16:59:08Z |3b|: so you don't actually know the lambda list at compile time?
2014-05-14T16:59:58Z |3b|: except you do, you just ignore that and pass them to runtime?
2014-05-14T17:00:08Z |3b| is still trying to follow the code and how it is used
2014-05-14T17:00:27Z |3b|: the DEFINE-COMMAND forms at the end are the goal, right?
2014-05-14T17:00:48Z dim: exactly
2014-05-14T17:01:25Z |3b|: ok, so you have a known lambda list at compile time, so you shouldn't be passing it to runtime and then compiling something else
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2014-05-14T17:01:49Z dim: at run-time, I need to match given cli arguments with existing commands
2014-05-14T17:02:04Z dim: and the lambda list matching is a part of the matching here
2014-05-14T17:02:25Z dim: sounds like I'm missing something big
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2014-05-14T17:04:32Z |3b|: well, you could compile a matcher function that checks the args at compile time, and at least get rid of the runtime compile
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2014-05-14T17:05:39Z pjb: minion: memo for quasimodo: it seems to me that draw-everything should be written as: (defun draw-everything (seq-of-things) (map nil (function draw-it) seq-of-things)) ; and (defgeneric draw-it (thing)) …
2014-05-14T17:05:39Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell quasimodo when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-05-14T17:06:33Z |3b| isn't completely sure checking for failure to match with IGNORE-ERRORS is the best way, but actually doing it correctly would probably be a bit of work (see alexandria:parse-ordinary-lambda-list if you do want to do so though)
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2014-05-14T17:07:36Z dim: exactly, I wanted to avoid having to parse an ordinary lambda list myself
2014-05-14T17:07:47Z dim: the matcher function idea is nice
2014-05-14T17:08:01Z dim: not buying that much tho, but nice idea
2014-05-14T17:11:28Z pjb: samebchase: I don't agree with H4ns  on your progn.  When they have the same structure, and not too long, I find it perfectly fine to put them on a single line, in "tabular" form; It ease reading it!
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2014-05-14T17:11:58Z pjb: samebchase: you could improve slightly the efficiency of your merge, by moving outside of loops some constant evaluations.
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2014-05-14T17:12:27Z pjb: samebchase: eg. compute the min of the lengths and compare with it instead of and-ing two comparisons.
2014-05-14T17:13:23Z pjb: samebchase: the two last loops could be replaced with a call to REPLACE.
2014-05-14T17:13:28Z pjb: two calls to REPLACE I mean.
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2014-05-14T17:18:49Z samebchase: pjb: replace sounds promising.
2014-05-14T17:23:51Z samebchase: I after looking at that verbose code, I knew I wasn't doing it correctly.
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2014-05-14T17:30:36Z pjb: samebchase: here is how I would optimize it, to avoid evaluating twice some expressions http://paste.lisp.org/+31ZL/2
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2014-05-14T17:33:44Z samebchase: pjb: Thanks! I'll try to understand what's happening here.
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2014-05-14T18:32:46Z oofie: https://gist.github.com/etherald/360a5062bf0285691ae7
2014-05-14T18:32:56Z oofie: is there a way to rewrite that using map-into?
2014-05-14T18:33:49Z stassats: don't setf variables without declaring them special
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2014-05-14T18:34:21Z oofie: whats special? the **s? could i use setq instead?
2014-05-14T18:34:35Z stassats: clhs defvar
2014-05-14T18:34:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm
2014-05-14T18:34:39Z stassats: clhs special
2014-05-14T18:34:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_specia.htm
2014-05-14T18:34:48Z oofie: ty
2014-05-14T18:37:47Z stassats: oofie: what about (map-into (make-string 8) (lambda () (code-char (+ 32 (random 95)))))?
2014-05-14T18:38:31Z stassats: + 33 if you don't want #\Space
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2014-05-14T18:40:23Z stassats: otherwise, (defun random-char () (char *characters* (random (length *characters*)))), then (map-into (make-string 8) #'random-char)
2014-05-14T18:40:57Z stassats: you can even do (defun random-char () (alexandria:random-elt *characters*))
2014-05-14T18:43:31Z oofie: hmm ok i will mess with it
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2014-05-14T18:45:01Z oofie: the last one looks like what i was thinking but didnt know how to do it
2014-05-14T18:46:32Z stassats: even without map-into, format is really unnecessary (let ((result ...)) (loop for i from 0 do (setf (char result i) ...)) result)
2014-05-14T18:48:41Z oofie: i used format to get rid of the quotes in the output
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2014-05-14T18:49:31Z stassats: you used format to turn a list into a string
2014-05-14T18:49:56Z stassats: and (setf out (format nil "...")) (princ out) is really (format t "...")
2014-05-14T18:52:18Z oofie: o yea i was doing that yesterday
2014-05-14T18:52:46Z oofie: i'm still at the "hack it to death until it works" stage of learning lisp :)
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2014-05-14T18:53:41Z didi: Are `char=' characters guaranteed to be `eq'?
2014-05-14T18:53:49Z stassats: no
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2014-05-14T18:54:23Z didi: stassats: Thanks.
2014-05-14T18:54:38Z stassats: in reality, they are
2014-05-14T18:54:48Z didi: Oh.
2014-05-14T18:55:08Z stassats: not sure about abcl
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2014-05-14T18:55:25Z didi: Would using `eql' or `equal' be more appropriate?
2014-05-14T18:55:31Z stassats: eql
2014-05-14T18:55:37Z didi: Cool, thank you.
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2014-05-14T18:58:33Z stassats: eq in abcl too
2014-05-14T18:58:43Z stassats: even though fixnums aren't
2014-05-14T19:00:08Z stassats: e.g. (eq (char-code #\ю) (char-code #\ю)) is NIL
2014-05-14T19:01:02Z nyef: Ah, flyweight characters?
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2014-05-14T19:02:47Z stassats: i have no idea, it's all due to JVM
2014-05-14T19:03:13Z stassats: (eq (char-code #\ÿ) (char-code #\ÿ)) => T
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2014-05-14T19:03:33Z stassats: 9-byte fixnums are eq on ABCL
2014-05-14T19:03:36Z nyef: Might depend on the JVM implementation.
2014-05-14T19:04:01Z nyef: 9-byte or 9-bit?
2014-05-14T19:04:23Z stassats: bit
2014-05-14T19:04:48Z stassats: or actually, unsigned 8, (eq -1 -1) => NIL
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2014-05-14T19:07:37Z stassats: (it interns them, iirc)
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2014-05-14T22:08:05Z leo2007: is there a trick to prevent recursive expansion if a macro has to expand to the same form on some conditions? for example (macrolet ((function (arg) (if (eq arg 'yes) `(yes) `(function ,arg)))) whatever)
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2014-05-14T22:13:28Z leo2007: clhs tail call
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2014-05-14T22:21:38Z White_Flame: leo2007: do you have a more concrete example?
2014-05-14T22:22:06Z White_Flame: or I guess, more indicative of the real-world problem this arises in?
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2014-05-14T22:32:58Z |3b|: leo2007: compiler macros can do that, though implementations can ignore compiler macros completely
2014-05-14T22:34:21Z |3b|: for a macrolet shadowing a global function you want to call from the expansion, you could capture the function binding outside the macrolet (either store it in a variable and funcall that, or wrap it in a flet/labels function and call that)
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2014-05-14T22:35:00Z fredSell: hello
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2014-05-14T22:42:06Z leo2007: White_Flame: I want to rewrite #'some-interesting-symbol in a BODY to a lambda provided by me and leave the rest intact
2014-05-14T22:42:55Z Bike: uh? like, you're going to have (funcall foo #'some-interesting-symbol bar)?
2014-05-14T22:43:21Z leo2007: (funcall #'some-interesting-symbol ...)
2014-05-14T22:43:48Z leo2007: or (apply #'some-interesting-symbol ....)
2014-05-14T22:44:41Z leo2007: |3b|: thanks for the information on compiler-macro.
2014-05-14T22:45:24Z rk[1]: how is the land of lisp doing this day?
2014-05-14T22:45:37Z leo2007: rk[1]: it is doing pretty well.
2014-05-14T22:46:09Z rk[1]: (=D)
2014-05-14T22:46:18Z Bike: leo2007: compiler macros can (supposedly, ccl fails last i looked) deal with funcall
2014-05-14T22:47:51Z leo2007: BTW, do people use macroexpand-1 or macroexpand in writing macros?
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2014-05-14T22:48:08Z leo2007: I mean do you find in some cases you have to use them.
2014-05-14T22:48:14Z Bike: very occasionally
2014-05-14T22:48:24Z leo2007: Bike: thanks for confirmation.
2014-05-14T22:48:57Z stassats: never?
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2014-05-14T22:53:04Z Viaken: I find them helpful to double check my output.
2014-05-14T22:53:21Z leo2007: certainly
2014-05-14T22:53:30Z leo2007: that we use almost every hour.
2014-05-14T22:54:09Z Bike: i assumed leo meant in actual code
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2014-05-14T23:08:55Z space_cadet: Greetings all. I'm a bit confused at the moment, and hoping that someone can point me in the right direction. The situation: I've a clws websocket server which refuses to print to the REPL via  ``(format t ..._)'' for any of it's methods, even though they perform other specified computations. As far as I can tell, there isn't any reason for this to
2014-05-14T23:08:55Z space_cadet:  be the case. Similar code worked on this same machine ~2 months ago. Since that time the only changes have been that iolib has been updated and other hacking done on my Emacs.
2014-05-14T23:08:56Z space_cadet: Interesting tidbits:
2014-05-14T23:08:56Z space_cadet: - When in the same package (and buffer no less) I can use `format' and get the desired effect, but not inside of the method calls. But the methods ARE being called (see code below).
2014-05-14T23:08:56Z space_cadet: - Nowhere within the #:clws package is *standard-output* referenced.
2014-05-14T23:08:56Z space_cadet: Could someone please point out what I'm missing here, aor test this on their machine to see if they experience the same effect? I've included all the necessary info in this paste: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142552#2 (see the second annotation first) Please note that the iolib system depends on a specific version of 'libfixposix-dev' to work on U
2014-05-14T23:08:56Z space_cadet: buntu. This issue has information as to the lisp system and machine I'm running. https://github.com/sionescu/iolib/issues/13
2014-05-14T23:10:03Z space_cadet: Jesus god sorry. Pasted from emacs into a web interface, which apparently (at least in this web interface) adds a lot of extra newlines.
2014-05-14T23:11:00Z |3b|: IRC line length is limited, so if it hadn't done that it would just have gotten cut off
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2014-05-14T23:11:29Z space_cadet: I see.
2014-05-14T23:11:30Z |3b|: is your output going to *inferior-lisp* buffer or some other output?
2014-05-14T23:11:40Z Bike: probably something about threads and... yeah.
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2014-05-14T23:12:05Z DataLinkDroid: space_cadet: you just compounded the error by breaking the third commandment...
2014-05-14T23:12:14Z space_cadet: |3b|: my output goes to *slime-repl sbcl*
2014-05-14T23:12:26Z space_cadet: |3b|: Except in this case
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2014-05-14T23:12:33Z |3b|: i mean the output that isn't going to the repl
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2014-05-14T23:13:31Z space_cadet: |3b|: I don't have any other buffers collecting output if thats what you mean.
2014-05-14T23:13:45Z space_cadet: DataLinkDroid: I don't understand the reference to the 'third commandment'
2014-05-14T23:13:57Z |3b|: i mean if you started the lisp from slime, slime created a *inferior-lisp* buffer, and you should check it for your missing output
2014-05-14T23:14:48Z space_cadet: |3b|: I understand you, but I simply don't have an *inferior-lisp* buffer
2014-05-14T23:14:49Z |3b|: *standard-output* is a dynamic variable (aka 'special' variable), which in threaded lisps usually means thread local binding. you might have different bindings of *standard-output* in th repl thread and the threads you create
2014-05-14T23:15:02Z |3b|: ok, so you started the lisp from a command line?
2014-05-14T23:15:18Z space_cadet: |3b|: Yes, and then slime-connected
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2014-05-14T23:15:35Z |3b|: do you have any output in the stdout of that command line process?
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2014-05-14T23:16:01Z space_cadet: |3b|: Idk, not sure how to access that.
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2014-05-14T23:17:03Z Bike: uh, look at the term you started it in, i guess?
2014-05-14T23:17:32Z space_cadet: Bike: stumpwm proc running on startup. No terms that I know how to access.
2014-05-14T23:17:49Z |3b|: can you try it from a lisp started by slime?
2014-05-14T23:17:52Z Bike: hoo, boy
2014-05-14T23:18:08Z space_cadet: |3b| Bike: thanks for the threading suggestion. (bt:make-thread (lambda () (format t "testing ~S~%" "test"))) exhibits the same behavior.
2014-05-14T23:18:09Z Bike: yeah, just start it in a fresh lisp, probably
2014-05-14T23:18:22Z Bike: that's usual. i forget how to get around it though
2014-05-14T23:18:31Z |3b|: maybe also check .xsession-errors
2014-05-14T23:19:01Z space_cadet: *grinds teeth mumbling about *nix*
2014-05-14T23:19:27Z |3b|: (bt:make-thread (let ((s *standard-output)) (lambda () (let ((*standard-output* s)) ...)))), or i think make-thread has an option for binding specials in the new thread
2014-05-14T23:20:07Z Bike: yeah, *default-special-bindings* i think.
2014-05-14T23:20:26Z stassats: you mean, redirect io globally?
2014-05-14T23:20:49Z |3b| was thinking :initial-bindings, which defaults to that
2014-05-14T23:20:50Z stassats: swank::*globally-redirect-io*
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2014-05-14T23:21:28Z |3b|: yeah, redirecting IO from swank might help, though not sure how that interacts with connecting and disconnecting from a running lisp
2014-05-14T23:21:46Z |3b|: though i guess rebinding standard-output by hand wouldn't help in that case either
2014-05-14T23:22:11Z |3b|: probably should write to a log file in that case, or bind it to a stream you can redirect at runtime
2014-05-14T23:22:16Z Bike: slime manual says you're supposed to do it before connection, so you could just set it up in stumpwmrc
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2014-05-14T23:23:00Z stassats: it should be done in ~/.swank.lisp
2014-05-14T23:23:11Z Bike: or that
2014-05-14T23:23:45Z space_cadet: I fail to understand why I can't do this dynamically?
2014-05-14T23:23:51Z leo2007: In "enclosed by a special binding", does special binding refer to let-binding a special variable?
2014-05-14T23:24:04Z stassats: space_cadet: "because"
2014-05-14T23:24:16Z space_cadet: ah, of course.
2014-05-14T23:24:18Z |3b|: space_cadet: you can, it just takes more work
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2014-05-14T23:25:02Z Bike: leo2007: or progv, but who uses progv
2014-05-14T23:25:46Z |3b|: or anything else that creates a variable binding, like function arguments, destructuring-bind, etc
2014-05-14T23:26:28Z leo2007: Bike and |3b|: thanks
2014-05-14T23:27:30Z leo2007: |3b|: are you saying that includes lexical-binding?
2014-05-14T23:27:46Z |3b|: as opposed to just LET
2014-05-14T23:28:16Z Bike: leo2007: function arguments and stuff can also be special.
2014-05-14T23:28:29Z |3b|: lexical and special bindings are separate things
2014-05-14T23:28:41Z leo2007: ok, thanks
2014-05-14T23:29:20Z |3b|: but for example with (defun foo (*standard-output*) ...) calling foo binds *standard-output*
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2014-05-14T23:30:20Z stassats: there's no form that only binds lexical variables
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2014-05-14T23:36:20Z leo2007: stassats: how about lambda?
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2014-05-14T23:37:17Z stassats: there's no form that only binds lexical variables
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2014-05-14T23:37:45Z Bike: leo2007: (lambda (*standard-output*) ...)
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2014-05-14T23:42:00Z leo2007: ahh I misunderstood
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2014-05-15T02:33:38Z leo2007: Edmund Weitz described watching someone using lisp-machine as awe-inspiring. Are there any public lispm videos that can inspire awe?
2014-05-15T02:34:11Z stassats: Edmund?
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2014-05-15T02:35:01Z leo2007: his full name
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2014-05-15T02:36:36Z stassats: you should have used "Prof. Dr. Edmund Weitz" then
2014-05-15T02:44:05Z JuanDaugherty: Herr Professor von Hunchentoot
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2014-05-15T03:05:18Z stassats runs mcclim on a phone, with sbcl: http://i.imgur.com/BTV9Wf0.png
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2014-05-15T03:05:27Z stassats: it's so slow it's not funny
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2014-05-15T03:06:30Z didi: stassats: Tho it's a non trivial CL application on a phone. Kinda cool.
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2014-05-15T03:07:28Z stassats: and the x server i installed can't send it proper keyboard characters
2014-05-15T03:08:44Z stassats: it's not as slow once the gf are cached
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2014-05-15T03:11:24Z stassats: can't run commonqt yet, since callbacks are not yet implemented
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2014-05-15T03:15:32Z stassats: connect to the desktop X server gives a better expereince, but i can't make a screenshot
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2014-05-15T03:17:34Z stassats: imagemagic is just that bad, gimp can make it: http://i.imgur.com/uoZSJNW.png
2014-05-15T03:18:11Z stassats: now, time to run hunchentoot
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2014-05-15T03:38:04Z leo2007: stassats: which mcclim?
2014-05-15T03:38:14Z stassats: that one
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2014-05-15T03:42:51Z leo2007: cool
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2014-05-15T03:51:00Z pillton: stassats: Congratulations.
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2014-05-15T04:24:57Z TerranceWarrior: are there nonmutability contructs in cl implementations other than clojure?
2014-05-15T04:25:14Z TerranceWarrior: note: i know clojure isn't a cl.
2014-05-15T04:25:15Z TerranceWarrior: :p
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2014-05-15T04:27:49Z Zhivago: I don't believe so. There are other dialects with immutability.
2014-05-15T04:28:09Z Zhivago: CL has immutability for a number of things, but this tends to manifest in undefined behaviour upon mutation.
2014-05-15T04:28:36Z stassats: you can't modify numbers!
2014-05-15T04:28:43Z JuanDaugherty: it's contrary to lisp in some sense I think, classic and therefore CL anyway
2014-05-15T04:29:44Z Zhivago: Um, what?
2014-05-15T04:30:44Z Zhivago: I really don't get people saying "because CL doesn't do X, X is contrary to lisp."
2014-05-15T04:30:54Z Zhivago: It's like they really just don't understand where CL came from.
2014-05-15T04:31:17Z didi likes old email saying CL is not a Real Lisp
2014-05-15T04:31:45Z stassats: because it has lexical variables?
2014-05-15T04:31:47Z Zhivago: You just need to remember that CL is a syncretic abomination. Then it all makes a lot more sense.
2014-05-15T04:31:50Z didi: stassats: Yes.
2014-05-15T04:32:45Z Zhivago: They took a bunch of lisp dialects, shoved them in a box, and then smashed them with a hammer until all of the slightly tricky bits fell off.
2014-05-15T04:33:15Z Zhivago: And that's what CL is -- the least common denominator with a bunch of bandaids wrapped around it.
2014-05-15T04:33:40Z stassats: they just did GCTWA
2014-05-15T04:34:00Z Zhivago: What does that stand for?
2014-05-15T04:34:05Z JuanDaugherty: in 2014, i see lisp as divided into cl, scheme, and various things that probably shouldn't be happening
2014-05-15T04:34:24Z JuanDaugherty: with cl as the main inheritor
2014-05-15T04:34:33Z Zhivago: CL is a doomed dead end.
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2014-05-15T04:34:44Z Zhivago: When was the last time there was any progress with it?
2014-05-15T04:35:19Z stassats: Garbage Collect Truly Worthless Atoms
2014-05-15T04:35:24Z stassats: http://www.maclisp.info/pitmanual/system.html#24.18.3
2014-05-15T04:35:56Z Zhivago: Well, that sounds about right. For some value of worthless. :)
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2014-05-15T04:37:08Z Zhivago: But looking at the diff from CLTL1 to CLTL2 ... it was more than that.
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2014-05-15T04:37:25Z JuanDaugherty: so what, if anything to you see as the future of lisp, Zhivago ?
2014-05-15T04:37:33Z stassats: JuanDaugherty: more of the same
2014-05-15T04:37:35Z JuanDaugherty: s/to/do/
2014-05-15T04:37:54Z Zhivago: I see scheme evolving and racket competing with clojure.
2014-05-15T04:38:13Z JuanDaugherty: at the expense of cl?
2014-05-15T04:38:16Z Zhivago: I see CL doing nothing at all until it becomes a historic footnote.
2014-05-15T04:38:19Z stassats: JuanDaugherty: CL on phones is the next cool thing
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2014-05-15T04:39:28Z Zhivago: I think that the world has learned pretty much all of the worthwhile lessons that lisp has to teach.
2014-05-15T04:39:30Z JuanDaugherty: stassats, i c
2014-05-15T04:39:48Z Zhivago: I think that CL isn't learning anything back.
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2014-05-15T04:40:02Z stassats: if i learned anything it is that the world doesn't learn
2014-05-15T04:40:07Z didi: I bet on implementations.
2014-05-15T04:40:19Z Zhivago: Some other dialects are, but to be honest, there's nothing terrible compelling left to lisp that doesn't seem to be a bad idea.
2014-05-15T04:41:13Z Zhivago: stassats: So, when was that last popular language without garbage collection and lexical closures produced?
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2014-05-15T04:42:23Z stassats: arm-64 instruction set, take that!
2014-05-15T04:42:32Z Bike: python was 1991, how about that
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2014-05-15T04:43:43Z wheelsucker: FORTRAN, baby....FORTRAN all the way.
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2014-05-15T04:44:16Z H4ns: TerranceWarrior: you may want to look at fset
2014-05-15T04:44:47Z stassats: i couldn't care less for fancy features, just give me M-. and C-c C-c to redefine the guts of a compiler
2014-05-15T04:45:47Z wheelsucker: I have a feeling the CL will be around a lot longer than I will be.
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2014-05-15T05:05:52Z protist: i am having the same error when trying to use Common Lisp on Heroku as the person who posted this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141175
2014-05-15T05:06:01Z protist: when i check on heroku, the variable is set
2014-05-15T05:06:09Z protist: does anyone have an idea as to a fix?
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2014-05-15T05:08:16Z protist: actually my error is a tad different: http://pastebin.com/SMj6ky4c
2014-05-15T05:08:32Z JuanDaugherty: isn't herokud for ruby?
2014-05-15T05:09:00Z JuanDaugherty: s/d//
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2014-05-15T05:09:38Z Bike: you can use it with other systems. that's what the "custom buildpack" bit means.
2014-05-15T05:10:16Z JuanDaugherty: it's an LSB in it's own right, rips another or what?
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2014-05-15T05:12:13Z JuanDaugherty: debian/ubuntu apparently
2014-05-15T05:14:18Z protist: LSB?
2014-05-15T05:14:24Z protist: I'm on fedora 18
2014-05-15T05:14:42Z protist: i was trying to follow along with this: https://github.com/aspires/heroku-clisp-example
2014-05-15T05:14:55Z protist: but using sbcl
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2014-05-15T05:40:47Z TerranceWarrior: H4ns: am i right is saying fset is a destructive function to overwrite the original value of an atom?
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2014-05-15T05:41:08Z stassats: minion: fset?
2014-05-15T05:41:09Z minion: fset: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/fset
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2014-05-15T05:41:28Z Zhivago: The question is incorrect. Atoms don't have values -- atoms are values.
2014-05-15T05:41:34Z Zhivago: Perhaps you mean 'variable'?
2014-05-15T05:42:01Z Bike: well they were thinking of setf, anyway, not fset
2014-05-15T05:42:05Z TerranceWarrior: or perhaps rather destructive copy.
2014-05-15T05:42:28Z Bike: just read the link
2014-05-15T05:42:53Z TerranceWarrior: Zhivago: the atom that becomes over written.
2014-05-15T05:43:08Z TerranceWarrior: with another one, just year a var.
2014-05-15T05:43:14Z TerranceWarrior: so yeah rather.
2014-05-15T05:43:32Z Zhivago: You can't overwrite an atom ...
2014-05-15T05:43:40Z Zhivago: Unless you mean replacing an atom in a list?
2014-05-15T05:43:53Z Zhivago: Anyhow, it's not clear what you're trying to accomplish.
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2014-05-15T05:44:42Z TerranceWarrior: to be frank, i don't know. thats why it's in the form of a question. the atom that has been assigned by the function changes into another atom. i suppose you can think of it as a databank.
2014-05-15T05:45:12Z Bike: TerranceWarrior asked about immutability in CL, and H4ns linked a library full of immutability, that's all
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2014-05-15T05:46:31Z TerranceWarrior: ok
2014-05-15T05:47:45Z leo2007: Zhivago: it is sad to see CL moving towards death.
2014-05-15T05:48:50Z stassats: good thing it isn't
2014-05-15T05:48:57Z protist: leo2007: ?
2014-05-15T05:49:48Z leo2007: it is becoming the fond little language in everyone's memory.
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2014-05-15T05:51:52Z JuanDaugherty: seems like a premature burial ta meh
2014-05-15T05:52:35Z Zhivago: Death is an invigorating experience for everyone else.
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2014-05-15T05:54:03Z JuanDaugherty: when people have told me whack shite in past, then the next time I'm like, Juan 'member?
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2014-05-15T06:29:43Z zRecursive: I feel some wonderful applications will make CL live forever, such as Maximu, stumpwm,etc.
2014-05-15T06:30:07Z zRecursive: s/Maximu/Maxima
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2014-05-15T08:44:12Z puchacz: hi, is there a emacslisp (and api) cheatsheet for regular CL users?
2014-05-15T08:44:54Z H4ns: puchacz: http://hyperpolyglot.org/lisp maybe?
2014-05-15T08:45:14Z aerique: puchacz: (require 'cl) :-)
2014-05-15T08:45:37Z puchacz: H4ns: thanks, this is looking good
2014-05-15T08:45:49Z puchacz: aerique: won't help to read somebody else's *.el files :-)
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2014-05-15T08:50:23Z puchacz: looking at H4ns' cheatsheet, an off topic question - do you guys use clojure? I use Java on daily basis and few times I used abcl, at least I felt at home with abcl. not sure if clojure is worth investing time though.
2014-05-15T08:50:39Z H4ns: puchacz: i like it, but it is offßtopic.
2014-05-15T08:50:50Z Zhivago: I don't, but it's popular and probably has a much larger userbase than abcl.
2014-05-15T08:51:19Z puchacz: H4ns: it is, but if I asked this question on #clojure, I would get a clojure biased answer. I wanted CL biased answer :-)
2014-05-15T08:51:29Z puchacz: s/it is/it is off topic/
2014-05-15T08:52:24Z H4ns: puchacz: as a cl programmer, i find clojure nice.  but it can't beat the cl repl experience.
2014-05-15T08:53:04Z puchacz: ok, so no slime x-reference equivalent, like go-to-definition, who-calls etc.?
2014-05-15T08:53:11Z puchacz: no presentations?
2014-05-15T08:53:26Z H4ns: puchacz: abcl is okay, but it does not get enough attention so it has bugs and downsides that sometimes make it hard to use.
2014-05-15T08:53:55Z H4ns: puchacz: no presentations, no useful stack traces, repl needs often needs to be restarted.
2014-05-15T08:54:56Z puchacz: H4ns: ok, thanks
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2014-05-15T09:06:01Z xificurC: I would like to create a mini-language in CL that would translate to VBA code. I can write CL code (a bit at least) but I have no experience in what I'm about to do. Would this fall in the category of interpreters/compilers or DSL? What resources could I find that you would find beginner-friendly?
2014-05-15T09:06:30Z Zhivago: I'd consider it to be a compiler, but then so are DSLs pretty much.
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2014-05-15T09:07:12Z yakov: hello
2014-05-15T09:07:41Z xificurC: Zhivago: is CL a good language for building such a compiler? And any books/resources you'd recommend?
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2014-05-15T09:08:57Z Zhivago: Well, I'd probably start by wondering what actual problem you're trying to solve.
2014-05-15T09:09:18Z xificurC: Zhivago: you mean what are my reasons for doing it?
2014-05-15T09:09:36Z Zhivago: I don't care why you're doing it; just what problem the result is supposed to solve.
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2014-05-15T09:10:39Z xificurC: Zhivago: reducing boilerplate code, adding functionality
2014-05-15T09:11:04Z Zhivago: Well, then I'd probably start by looking at a VBA to VBA compiler.
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2014-05-15T09:11:25Z xificurC: Zhivago: defining a language that is more natural to write
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2014-05-15T09:12:53Z Zhivago: Well, I hope it's for educational purposes, since you'll probably get it horribly wrong the first couple of times. :)
2014-05-15T09:13:19Z H4ns: xificurC: what do you mean by "more natural"?
2014-05-15T09:13:28Z xificurC: Zhivago: sure, but I dont want to write a VBA to VBA compiler
2014-05-15T09:13:34Z Zhivago: Presumably you don't care about optimization, which makes it simpler.
2014-05-15T09:13:56Z Zhivago: In which case you just need to write some horrible VBA code generator and plug in a compiler on top of that.
2014-05-15T09:14:00Z xificurC: H4ns: lisp syntax (or the lack of it) feels more natural to me
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2014-05-15T09:14:44Z Zhivago: You could look at paranscript for a reasonably simple and horrible option that targets javascript.
2014-05-15T09:15:01Z H4ns: xificurC: you'll end up with something as nice as coffeescript, parenscript or clojurescript, i.e. a half-arsed, underdocumented syntactical layer over another language, with the underlying language leaking through all the time.
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2014-05-15T09:15:44Z H4ns: xificurC: i'm sounding negative because i mean it :)
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2014-05-15T09:16:11Z xificurC: H4ns: did you ever write VB or VBA code?
2014-05-15T09:16:19Z H4ns: xificurC: yes.  it was fun.
2014-05-15T09:16:31Z xificurC: H4ns: im doing so for almost 2 years now and I am pretty fed up with it :)
2014-05-15T09:16:56Z H4ns: xificurC: use another language, or try to find another job.
2014-05-15T09:17:53Z xificurC: H4ns: yeah, I cant change the language (wish I could). Changing job is a possibility but I'm not quite there yet
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2014-05-15T09:18:17Z xificurC: H4ns: anyway, even if it became what you described I would learn some stuff along the way
2014-05-15T09:18:42Z H4ns: xificurC: good luck then :)
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2014-05-15T09:19:36Z xificurC: H4ns: thanks, but let me ask, if all *scripts are bad, can you recommend something that will guide me the right way?
2014-05-15T09:19:59Z xificurC: should I read a book about compilers first?
2014-05-15T09:20:16Z xificurC: or check out another project that is simple enough to grasp but done right?
2014-05-15T09:20:19Z H4ns: xificurC: if you want to write a compiler, learning something about compilers is a good idea.
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2014-05-15T09:20:51Z H4ns: xificurC: in my opinion, there is no "done right" when it comes to writing "a simple lisp" that makes the ugliness of blub go away
2014-05-15T09:21:25Z xificurC: H4ns: so in short, no recommendations
2014-05-15T09:22:25Z H4ns: xificurC: you're asking "i want to shoot myself in the foot", i say "it is a bad idea".  i have no further recommendations.
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2014-05-15T09:27:32Z xificurC: H4ns: its for educational purposes. I want to learn about code generation / compilation etc. I thought helping me out with my current job might be a nice side-effect. If you don't recommend writing such a compiler though I'll gladly hear what other compiler would be a good idea
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2014-05-15T09:28:07Z H4ns: xificurC: i hear "lisp in small pieces" is a good book to learn about writing lisp compilers in lisp
2014-05-15T09:28:19Z Zhivago: I recommend writing a compiler, providing this is for educational purposes.
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2014-05-15T09:28:56Z Zhivago: The main advantage you have here is that you can hand off the optimization work to the vba compiler.
2014-05-15T09:29:09Z Zhivago: Non-optimizing compilers are reasonably easy to knock together.
2014-05-15T09:29:22Z puchacz: is clojurescript half-arsed layer with the underlying language (javascript) leaking through everywhere?
2014-05-15T09:29:24Z Zhivago: But language design is a black and misguided art.
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2014-05-15T09:31:28Z xificurC: H4ns, Zhivago, ok thanks for the tips and your time, both of you
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2014-05-15T09:32:06Z H4ns: puchacz: of course.  i mean, javascript is improving as compilation target, but you'll still see a lot of javascript when you write clojurescript.  in the debugger, in documentation.
2014-05-15T09:33:05Z puchacz: H4ns: ok - just wanted an opinion, as you know already by my previous question on clojure, this world is unknown to me
2014-05-15T09:33:41Z puchacz: I use parenscript though - it feels nicer to write generated inline javascript in CL this way.
2014-05-15T09:34:06Z puchacz: for standalone files I use plain javascript though
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2014-05-15T09:35:18Z H4ns: i find myself spending more time debugging and experimenting than writing actual code, so i am optimizing my choice of language for the more common use case.
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2014-05-15T10:31:07Z ltbarcly_: when is the proper time to use unsigned-byte X vs fixnum?
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2014-05-15T10:36:58Z phadthai: ltbarcly_: unless using the constants to determine the size of fixnum, generally you don't know its size; specifying the exact type you want might allow optimizations when possible, while remaining more predictable
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2014-05-15T10:37:44Z ltbarcly_: is the numeric range of a signed-byte 32 the same as a 32bit c int?  I mean does tagging in sbcl potentially reduce the numerical range?
2014-05-15T10:37:45Z White_Flame: declaring as fixnum is more dangerous than declaring as a specifically sized unsigned-byte
2014-05-15T10:38:22Z phadthai: ltbarcly_: since you'd specify it as 32-bit SBCL would make sure to at least hold 32-bit for it (using an internal larger type as necessary)
2014-05-15T10:39:02Z phadthai: while with fixnum, you'd usually have less than 32-bit available on 32-bit implementations, but 64-bit implementation would usually be able to hold 32-bit types in fixnum
2014-05-15T10:39:39Z phadthai: and of course, you might want smaller types than a fixnum too, like an unsigned-byte 8
2014-05-15T10:39:46Z White_Flame: If you declare a 32 or 64 bit unsigned-byte on that size CPU, SBCL can use untagged full-width registers to perform computations, at least within a function body and possibly between them as well
2014-05-15T10:40:17Z White_Flame: and yes, the smaller sizes of unsigned-byte are useful for packing memory more densely in arrays and such
2014-05-15T10:40:20Z phadthai: so I agree with White_Flame that fixnum is less safe
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2014-05-15T10:41:19Z phadthai: if you need a general fast index, fixnum might be just the right thing however, assuming you only use it at places you're pretty sure no overflow can occur
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2014-05-15T10:42:57Z White_Flame: we use features tests to declare incrementing counters as fixnum on 64-bit only, leaving them as type t on 32-bit
2014-05-15T10:43:36Z White_Flame: for purely +1 incrementing, you're not going to overflow 64 (or 62 or whatever) bits in any practical runtime
2014-05-15T10:43:55Z phadthai: also, the implementation might be able to automatically use an unboxed fixnum when things like loop counter bounds are predictable
2014-05-15T10:44:49Z White_Flame: or array indexes
2014-05-15T10:45:00Z phadthai: yes
2014-05-15T10:45:02Z White_Flame: since those will generally associate fixnum width near machine addressable width
2014-05-15T10:47:38Z White_Flame: the spec does offer 1 guarantee:  The type fixnum is required to be a supertype of (signed-byte 16).
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2014-05-15T10:51:06Z phadthai: using the proper type is especially important when dealing with FFI; i.e. a C function needing an int can usually hold more than a CL fixnum on the same architecture, so using the proper arch-compatible type is important to avoid truncation etc
2014-05-15T10:51:34Z phadthai: or of course on 64-bit, CL fixnum can hold more than on C/amd64
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2014-05-15T10:57:38Z ltbarcly_: phadthai: what do you mean when you sai CL fixnum on 64-bit can hold more than C on 64-bit?
2014-05-15T10:58:53Z phadthai: ltbarcly_: on the x86-64 ABI, int is 32-bit, with long/pointers 64-bit; ECL on x86-64 however uses a 64-bit type to hold fixnum (with a few bits reserved for the type tag of course)
2014-05-15T10:59:03Z ltbarcly_: oh, of course
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2014-05-15T10:59:45Z phadthai: and on x86-32, it's the other way around: the type tagging causes some bits to be unusable in a fixnum, so fixnum <-> int is undesirable as well
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2014-05-15T11:32:37Z varjag: any ccl people here?
2014-05-15T11:33:04Z varjag: realistically, can armcl.image be shrunk in any way?
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2014-05-15T12:43:40Z Poenikatu: Hello folks. I'm not sure whether I asked this before, but trawling thru the logs has not helped. I want to pass 'arg' to a foreign function. The foreign field has the CFFI mode :pointer. What should I do?
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2014-05-15T12:44:34Z Zhivago: I'd suggest reading the documentation.
2014-05-15T12:45:25Z prxq: Poenikatu: it depends on what arg is holding. It would be helpful if you could post some code somewhere, to see what you are trying to achieve.
2014-05-15T12:45:54Z Poenikatu: Zhivago: I've tried that as well. I know that in SBCL, sb-ext:*posix-argv* contains the command line.
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2014-05-15T12:46:12Z Poenikatu: But what should I put in the call to the function?
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2014-05-15T12:46:17Z Zhivago: Um, what does that have to do with your problem?
2014-05-15T12:46:44Z prxq: Poenikatu: it is generally a good idea to ignore Zhivago
2014-05-15T12:46:58Z Poenikatu: From my knowledge of C, argv is a pointer to an array of pointers. Do I have to construct such an array before the call?
2014-05-15T12:47:26Z prxq: Poenikatu: what function are you trying to call?
2014-05-15T12:47:26Z Zhivago: argc in C is a pointer into an array of char *, not to an array of char *.
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2014-05-15T12:47:37Z Zhivago: er, argv.
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2014-05-15T12:47:41Z nyef: sb-ext:*posix-argv* is substantially preprocessed, it's not a good example.
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2014-05-15T12:48:31Z Poenikatu: prxq: fl_initialize in the :xforms package that I have succeeded in compiling and loading.
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2014-05-15T12:49:28Z Zhivago: I suggest starting with the C type and figuring out how to supply what will be translated to that by cffi. cffi's documentation should describe how it translates things.
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2014-05-15T12:50:09Z Poenikatu: Zhivago: Yes, the cffi doc'n does explain, but not an array of char* (terminated null)
2014-05-15T12:50:31Z nyef: So... you have a string?
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2014-05-15T12:50:41Z prxq: no, he has argv.
2014-05-15T12:50:42Z Poenikatu: nyef: eh?
2014-05-15T12:50:47Z nyef: No, sorry, you have an argv. Okay.
2014-05-15T12:51:07Z nyef: I'm paying more attention to part of the SBCL runtime right now than to the conversation here, I'm afraid.
2014-05-15T12:51:25Z prxq: Poenikatu: you have to pass the thing like that, probably even the SAP of the thing. argv in this context is just a pointer.
2014-05-15T12:51:37Z Poenikatu: nyef: prxq: The only value currently in the arg string is the path of the binary. So only one string needs to be sent, but should I give it as a pointer to a pointer?
2014-05-15T12:52:01Z nyef: Are you trying to avoid using RUN-PROGRAM?
2014-05-15T12:52:20Z Zhivago: I suspect that he wants to _build_ an argv, to pass to fl_initialize.
2014-05-15T12:52:29Z prxq: Poenikatu: no, I was wrong, sorry.
2014-05-15T12:52:31Z Zhivago: In which case the cffi documentation is pretty clear on how to do that.
2014-05-15T12:52:38Z Poenikatu: nyef: No, I am trying to write a diddy test program for the Xforms library
2014-05-15T12:52:44Z prxq: nyef: he wants to initialize a toolkit that asks for argv
2014-05-15T12:53:04Z prxq: so he needs the original argv, not sb-ext:*posix-argv*
2014-05-15T12:53:06Z nyef: Hrm.
2014-05-15T12:53:16Z Poenikatu: Zhivago: I've tried to find where in the documentation it says that, but I've not found it
2014-05-15T12:53:20Z prxq: http://xforms-toolkit.org/doc/xforms_38.html#Initialization
2014-05-15T12:54:01Z prxq: Poenikatu: btw, I've found this: http://www.crategus.com/index.php/projekte/
2014-05-15T12:54:15Z prxq: it looks rather well maintained.
2014-05-15T12:54:28Z Poenikatu: prxq: Your first URL is correct for said function
2014-05-15T12:54:31Z prxq: it even has a book behind it
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2014-05-15T12:55:10Z Zhivago: (with-foreign-object (array :pointer 2) ...) looks plausible, at a glance.
2014-05-15T12:55:24Z prxq: Poenikatu: what happens if you just pass zero for argc and null for argv?
2014-05-15T12:55:48Z Poenikatu: prxq: Your 2nd URL looks very interesting, but I don't know GTK+ whereas I've considerable experience of Xforms
2014-05-15T12:56:07Z prxq: that's a good point
2014-05-15T12:56:28Z Poenikatu: prxq: argc is never zero: it always contains at least the path of the binary
2014-05-15T12:56:59Z Zhivago: Not necessarily -- that's only conventionally true.
2014-05-15T12:56:59Z prxq: sure, but maybe the xforms authors know that zero means "the command line is none of your business" :-)
2014-05-15T12:57:25Z prxq: s/know/assume/
2014-05-15T12:57:32Z Fare: Poenikatu, see cl-launch and asdf to write diddly programs that accept argv or pass it
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2014-05-15T12:58:08Z Fare: Poenikatu, asdf has uiop:run-program to invoke stuff, and its program-op target accepts an entry point that can use uiop:*command-line-arguments*
2014-05-15T12:58:24Z Fare: cl-launch can make that available from the shell command line
2014-05-15T12:59:01Z Fare: (uiop:argv0) is a separate function not included in uiop:*command-line-arguments*
2014-05-15T12:59:17Z Poenikatu: Fare: It's not run-program that I'm trying to do. (I know how to do that). It's calling a foreign function
2014-05-15T13:00:30Z Fare: so what's the relationship with argc?
2014-05-15T13:00:45Z Poenikatu: prxq: The fact is, that the Xforms library will accept arguments on the cmd line which relate to the library rather than the program. So one of the things that fl_initialize does is to use and remove those arguments
2014-05-15T13:00:58Z prxq: Fare: http://xforms-toolkit.org/doc/xforms_38.html#Initialization
2014-05-15T13:01:57Z Poenikatu: AFAIK, the CFFI type for a string is :string, but for an array (of anything), its :pointer
2014-05-15T13:02:28Z prxq: Poenikatu: right, but only the right kind of array. I.e. not your standard issue lisp array
2014-05-15T13:02:44Z Poenikatu: Zhivago: Give a case when argc is zero
2014-05-15T13:03:02Z Poenikatu: prxq: I do agree
2014-05-15T13:05:22Z Poenikatu: Fare: uiop/* == 13 packages. No package called uiop. Which one did you means for (uiop:argv0)?
2014-05-15T13:05:35Z Poenikatu: *mean
2014-05-15T13:05:45Z H4ns: Poenikatu: (apropos "argv0")
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2014-05-15T13:06:03Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Quite right!
2014-05-15T13:06:48Z Poenikatu: H4ns: NIL
2014-05-15T13:07:06Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Actually, even worse: ;No value
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2014-05-15T13:08:15Z Zhivago: poenikatu: When invoked that way by exec and friends, or when decremented to that amount.
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2014-05-15T13:08:40Z Zhivago: poenikatu: argv[0] has no magic -- it's just another argument, and you can't rely on it being a path to anywhere or even related to the binary.
2014-05-15T13:08:57Z Zhivago: Consider unix programs which use argv[0] to decide how to behave -- e.g., compress and uncompress.
2014-05-15T13:09:41Z Poenikatu: Zhivago: When calling exec and friends, you have to give the path to the program, if not in PATH, and another argument whose first string is the name of the program. Or have you not used exec and friends recently?
2014-05-15T13:10:01Z Poenikatu: Zhivago: And I'm running on Linux.
2014-05-15T13:10:20Z Poenikatu: Zhivago: And grep and many others
2014-05-15T13:10:44Z H4ns: Poenikatu: really, spend some time with the repl and the documentation.
2014-05-15T13:10:47Z Zhivago: poenikatu: You may notice that the path and argv[0] are supplied _separately_ ...
2014-05-15T13:11:02Z Zhivago: poenikatu: I suggest meditating on why this is the case.
2014-05-15T13:11:19Z Poenikatu: Zhivago: Perhaps it is a convention to make the first argument for argv to be the name of the program
2014-05-15T13:11:31Z Zhivago: It is, and that's all it is.
2014-05-15T13:11:50Z Poenikatu: Zhivago: You meditate. I'm far too busy for such time-wasting activities
2014-05-15T13:12:13Z Zhivago: Well, as long as you're having fun going around in circles. :)
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2014-05-15T13:15:34Z Poenikatu: Zhivago: At least my circles are ellipses.
2014-05-15T13:16:05Z Poenikatu: Just succeeded in getting the CFFI manual as one complete HTML page, and a search for argv is negative.
2014-05-15T13:16:53Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Thanks for your remarks. I've been reading the CFFI manual for 3 days already
2014-05-15T13:17:11Z H4ns: Poenikatu: cffi is not concerned with argv at all.
2014-05-15T13:17:40Z Poenikatu: H4ns: I know, but it *is* concerned with translating Lisp objects into C objects and vice versa
2014-05-15T13:17:51Z H4ns: Poenikatu: so?
2014-05-15T13:18:18Z Poenikatu: H4ns: I've not found anything so far which would tell me how to pass a value which mimics argv
2014-05-15T13:18:19Z H4ns: Poenikatu: if a function expects a char* [] array, you need to pass a char* [] array.  you'll have to find out how to construct such an array in cffi.
2014-05-15T13:18:54Z Poenikatu: H4ns: You are quite right, so I shall bow out now and get to grips with translators. See ya all!
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2014-05-15T13:20:38Z vanila: hi
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2014-05-15T13:37:20Z oGMo: heretic kingdoms back on sale, gog.com $1.49, going very fast
2014-05-15T13:37:22Z oGMo: er
2014-05-15T13:37:24Z oGMo: mischan sorry
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2014-05-15T13:40:53Z vanila: hi oGMo
2014-05-15T13:40:58Z oGMo: 'lo
2014-05-15T13:41:35Z vanila: I was wondering about if you could make a toy operating system in lisp
2014-05-15T13:41:52Z oGMo: you could even make a big operating system in lisp
2014-05-15T13:41:58Z vanila: I couldn't :P
2014-05-15T13:42:08Z vanila: but maybe I could follow the tutorial and make something simple
2014-05-15T13:42:11Z oGMo: though most likely you would need to write the lisp, or modify CL, to do so effectively
2014-05-15T13:42:36Z vanila: yeah, try to make a very basic compiler for a much simplified lisp (no where near complete CL)
2014-05-15T13:43:07Z nyef: Have a look at Movitz if you want to go that route.
2014-05-15T13:43:13Z vanila: I know about CPS transform and closure conversion, not sure about garbage collection though
2014-05-15T13:43:20Z Zhivago: vanila: It depends on what 'operating system' means to you.
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2014-05-15T13:44:14Z oGMo: vanila: well you have something to study then .. there are good GC books available
2014-05-15T13:44:42Z vanila: Zhivago, well the goal would be to boot it on a real computer, and get a REPL up which you can interact with a filesystem a bit
2014-05-15T13:44:56Z oGMo: that would be a lot of work
2014-05-15T13:45:04Z oGMo: but, start small, and eventually maybe
2014-05-15T13:45:46Z oGMo: if you've hand-coded a tiny OS and shell in asm or C or similar, perhaps less work
2014-05-15T13:46:58Z vanila: What I don't get about garbage collection is how you could do that without it causing pauses to the OS periodically
2014-05-15T13:46:59Z nyef: Seriously, isn't Movitz at that part?
2014-05-15T13:47:08Z vanila: I'm reading the movitz page
2014-05-15T13:47:28Z oGMo: does movitz boot?
2014-05-15T13:47:34Z Xach: movitz boots.
2014-05-15T13:47:47Z oGMo: cool. well there you go.
2014-05-15T13:48:02Z dlowe: vanila: you deal with pauses to the os periodically
2014-05-15T13:48:20Z nyef: You could go with something like the AZUL collector.
2014-05-15T13:48:52Z dlowe: there seems to be a fair bit of overhead on the incremental collectors
2014-05-15T13:48:54Z oGMo: there are plenty of realtime or concurrent collectors you could implement .. not familiar with AZUL
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2014-05-15T13:49:48Z dlowe: or you could just never deallocate memory and reboot when you run out :D
2014-05-15T13:50:03Z vanila: that would suck!
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2014-05-15T13:50:27Z dlowe: easy to do, though
2014-05-15T13:50:27Z oGMo: or write more static code .. but efficient GC shouldn't be _that_ hard
2014-05-15T13:50:48Z nyef: The AZUL collector has the interesting property that the underlying algorithm doesn't require a stop-the-world process when it flips spaces.
2014-05-15T13:51:17Z JuanDaugherty: does sbcl's default gc do that?
2014-05-15T13:51:18Z oGMo: well, a lot don't heh
2014-05-15T13:51:37Z oGMo: not afaik, i'm pretty sure sbcl's is stop-the-world entirely
2014-05-15T13:52:06Z JuanDaugherty: that was my question, does it do that?
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2014-05-15T13:52:14Z dlowe: H4ns: thanks for the reset
2014-05-15T13:52:30Z H4ns: dlowe: sure.  do you need the -announce and -cvs lists?
2014-05-15T13:52:42Z dlowe: as you pointed out, they've never been used.
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2014-05-15T13:52:51Z dlowe: I don't see much value there.
2014-05-15T13:52:51Z oleo: morning
2014-05-15T13:53:36Z nyef: Yes, SBCL uses stop-the-world collections.
2014-05-15T13:53:40Z JuanDaugherty: yello oleo
2014-05-15T13:53:50Z JuanDaugherty: nyef, ty very much
2014-05-15T13:54:36Z JuanDaugherty: i assume there's a incremental option , fork, whatever
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2014-05-15T13:55:23Z JuanDaugherty: intolerable for my use so will address given time
2014-05-15T13:55:25Z p_l: JuanDaugherty: right now nearly everything does stop-the-world, if only to flip few bits in collector
2014-05-15T13:55:43Z JuanDaugherty: there are incremental collectors
2014-05-15T13:56:00Z p_l: JuanDaugherty: which tend to do stop-the-world in multithreaded code
2014-05-15T13:56:26Z p_l: AZUL's is afaik unique due to using hw assists (either in their custom CPU or through funky EPT magic)
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2014-05-15T13:57:08Z JuanDaugherty: well intell arch has had stuff for that for more than a generation
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2014-05-15T13:57:17Z JuanDaugherty: *intel
2014-05-15T13:57:34Z p_l: which stuff? EPT? Tends to not be available on all cpus, afaik
2014-05-15T13:57:38Z JuanDaugherty: the lisp would just need to assume control program state
2014-05-15T13:58:22Z p_l: and code in other than ring 3 is often not exactly possible
2014-05-15T13:58:30Z JuanDaugherty: and responsibilities
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2014-05-15T13:59:15Z JuanDaugherty: which in this time it could do efficiently in coop with an open kernel like linux
2014-05-15T13:59:50Z JuanDaugherty knew this was the case but now knows it bettah
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2014-05-15T14:00:05Z Zhivago: Stop the world is pretty good, if you have a lot of little worlds, but most lisps don't go that way.
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2014-05-15T14:00:23Z JuanDaugherty: i was sort assuming in a pollyanna kind of way sbcl had an option that you could specially build
2014-05-15T14:00:24Z dlowe: I wouldn't mind seeing a CL arena allocation system
2014-05-15T14:00:50Z p_l: JuanDaugherty: there are things that could be made to minimize pauses in SBCL, though
2014-05-15T14:01:00Z p_l: however, at least some designs would for example break non-mt running
2014-05-15T14:01:15Z Zhivago: I mean lots of little lisp processes, like erlang.
2014-05-15T14:01:19Z ampharmex: here is a challenge I devised: given 7 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 5 6 7 3 4 2 4 5 8 7 = 476 Goal: find out what mathematical operators (minus, multiply, divide, add) satisfy that solution (476)
2014-05-15T14:01:28Z ampharmex: Order of operation is variable.
2014-05-15T14:01:39Z ampharmex: 4^18 * 18! is a non optimal approach.
2014-05-15T14:01:52Z Zhivago: ampharmex: You are missing an intelligent question.
2014-05-15T14:02:02Z ampharmex: Zhivago, huh?
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2014-05-15T14:02:21Z Zhivago: Oh, you want someone else to just do it for you. Fair enough.
2014-05-15T14:02:26Z ampharmex: Some example output:
2014-05-15T14:02:27Z JuanDaugherty: the relation operator
2014-05-15T14:02:34Z H4ns: ampharmex: please see the logs for a solution.
2014-05-15T14:02:38Z ampharmex: (7 + (9 + (8 + (7 + (6 + (5 + (4 + (3 + (2 + (5 + (6 + (7 + (3 - (4 + (2 * (4 * (5 - (8 * 7)))))))))))))))))) = 476
2014-05-15T14:03:00Z ampharmex: H4ns, A dynamic programming solution?
2014-05-15T14:03:02Z H4ns: is there a prize associated with the solution or why do people keep coming with it?
2014-05-15T14:03:07Z ampharmex: naive brute force is trivial
2014-05-15T14:03:07Z vanila: ampharmex, in lisp you write it this way (+ 7 (+ 9 ... ))
2014-05-15T14:03:15Z Zhivago: I'm assuming that it's homework.
2014-05-15T14:03:26Z ampharmex: Zhivago, homework or not, I have done it
2014-05-15T14:03:31Z JuanDaugherty: he's not the first?
2014-05-15T14:03:32Z ampharmex: And no it is not, I made this up.
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2014-05-15T14:03:39Z H4ns: JuanDaugherty: no.
2014-05-15T14:03:39Z Zhivago: That's nice. :)
2014-05-15T14:03:44Z ampharmex: I posted this a few weeks ago.
2014-05-15T14:03:55Z JuanDaugherty: he seems to think/assert he is
2014-05-15T14:04:00Z H4ns: ah, dang.
2014-05-15T14:04:08Z ampharmex: Aswell, no one has managed a dynamic programming solution thusfar.
2014-05-15T14:04:09Z H4ns: it is ampharmex who keeps coming back with the same thing.
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2014-05-15T14:04:27Z H4ns: ampharmex: "dynamic programming solution", what is that supposed to be?
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2014-05-15T14:04:40Z H4ns: ampharmex: do you intend to pay for a solution?  i may be able to refer you a consultant.
2014-05-15T14:04:57Z ampharmex: H4ns, dp[i][j][k] = Can I make the number k using the numbers a[i ... j].
2014-05-15T14:05:02Z JuanDaugherty: dynamic programming in the sense of calculus of variations
2014-05-15T14:05:09Z JuanDaugherty: richard bellman etc
2014-05-15T14:05:09Z ampharmex: H4ns, Uh no, I have one
2014-05-15T14:05:44Z JuanDaugherty: funny thing that there can be an equivocation with "dymanic typing" or "dynamic programming lang"
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2014-05-15T14:06:10Z dlowe: The term "dynamic programming" was actually a pure marketing ploy for the military
2014-05-15T14:06:18Z JuanDaugherty: I had an interview from hell a couple years ago where just such an equivocation was a key of the nastiness
2014-05-15T14:06:40Z dlowe: "dynamic" in this context doesn't actually mean anything
2014-05-15T14:06:42Z JuanDaugherty: i'm not even sure they knew what dynamic p in an applied math sense is
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2014-05-15T14:07:44Z ampharmex: The code is the usual dynamic programming solution, with a range of [-500, 1000]
2014-05-15T14:07:49Z JuanDaugherty: dynamic programming is not a marketing ploy
2014-05-15T14:07:59Z dlowe: www.cas.mcmaster.ca/~se3c03/journal_papers/dy_birth.pdf
2014-05-15T14:08:04Z dlowe: no, the term is
2014-05-15T14:08:06Z JuanDaugherty: the classic text is Bellman's
2014-05-15T14:08:38Z ampharmex: If I want to make X with the numbers A[i ... j], then I find a position v such that A[i ... v - 1] can make Y, A[v ... j] can make Y', and either Y + Y', Y * Y', Y - Y', or Y / Y' is equal to X.
2014-05-15T14:08:42Z dlowe: first page of that pdf
2014-05-15T14:08:55Z ampharmex: That is how you compute A[i][j][X].
2014-05-15T14:09:02Z JuanDaugherty: Dynamic Programming, Richard Bellman, 1957 Princetpn University Press
2014-05-15T14:09:21Z ampharmex: If you want to find some sequence that does, then in A[i][j][X] you store the position at which you split (v) and the operator you chose.
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2014-05-15T14:10:04Z dlowe: If you're not going to read my reference, I don't see why you expect me to read yours :p
2014-05-15T14:10:04Z ampharmex: _Every_ expression that you can form using the numbers in A[i ... j] is of the form (Y) op (Y'), where Y is an expression obtained from A[i ... v - 1], Y' is an expression obtained from A[v ... j], and op is either +, -, *, or /.
2014-05-15T14:10:15Z vanila: ampharmex, why are you telling us this
2014-05-15T14:10:23Z H4ns: ampharmex: you're in the wrong channel.  go somewhere else.
2014-05-15T14:10:37Z ampharmex: If I'm trying to find several, I'll store the several v, but that (since the number of answers is already exponential) will be exponential in space and time.
2014-05-15T14:11:05Z ampharmex: vanila, Because H4ns did not quite understand.
2014-05-15T14:11:13Z ampharmex: So I thought I should explain to him.
2014-05-15T14:11:20Z vanila: I think he knows dynamic programming dude
2014-05-15T14:11:26Z JuanDaugherty: dlowe, were you talking to me?
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2014-05-15T14:11:38Z ampharmex: <H4ns> ampharmex: "dynamic programming solution", what is that supposed to be?
2014-05-15T14:11:41Z H4ns: ampharmex: i did not read you, sorry.  i'm here for #lisp.
2014-05-15T14:12:05Z JuanDaugherty: so that equivocation on the term has to be cleared first
2014-05-15T14:12:11Z dlowe: JuanDaugherty: yes, responding to "dynamic programming is not a marketing ploy"
2014-05-15T14:12:13Z ampharmex: H4ns, This can be lisp.
2014-05-15T14:12:16Z JuanDaugherty: especially here
2014-05-15T14:12:41Z ampharmex: And anyways everyone is talking about dynamic programming right now.
2014-05-15T14:12:54Z JuanDaugherty: dlowe, OK, well see what this is
2014-05-15T14:13:16Z JuanDaugherty: you're talking about "dynamic programming" the linguistic token
2014-05-15T14:13:54Z vanila: ampharmex, why don't you tell people in #programming they might benefit from the explanation you gave
2014-05-15T14:13:54Z JuanDaugherty: and I'm talking about "dynamic programmg" the application of the calculus of variations in applied math as developed by Bellman
2014-05-15T14:14:23Z JuanDaugherty: the former could be a marketing ploy
2014-05-15T14:14:32Z JuanDaugherty: for the rand corp and others
2014-05-15T14:14:41Z ampharmex: vanila, Okay, if I must repeat myself there.
2014-05-15T14:15:03Z JuanDaugherty: such aspersions could be cast on a lot of applied/computerized math
2014-05-15T14:15:25Z dlowe: JuanDaugherty: I did say "the term"
2014-05-15T14:15:37Z dlowe: JuanDaugherty: The general techniques are awesome
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2014-05-15T14:15:38Z JuanDaugherty: git it
2014-05-15T14:15:41Z JuanDaugherty: *got
2014-05-15T14:16:30Z dlowe: Though, I must admit, how one goes about actually making DP solutions is a complete mystery to me
2014-05-15T14:16:40Z JuanDaugherty: yes they are I used in college and then say in practical use in my first job out of college in satellite tracking ops
2014-05-15T14:16:43Z dlowe: or even how you would identify a problem that DP would be good at solving
2014-05-15T14:16:48Z JuanDaugherty: *then saw
2014-05-15T14:17:09Z JuanDaugherty: it is useful in a lot of control problems
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2014-05-15T14:17:25Z JuanDaugherty: such as satellite attitude manouevers
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2014-05-15T14:18:43Z JuanDaugherty: fairly wide range of multi stage control problems
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2014-05-15T14:20:09Z JuanDaugherty: today a lot of people are getting out college without calculus so may be less popular/known as part of a larger problem
2014-05-15T14:20:37Z ampharmex: dlowe, How so? It is trivial.
2014-05-15T14:20:52Z JuanDaugherty: it though and not the dynamic nature of things in lisp should be the first referent of the term even in the lisp community
2014-05-15T14:21:06Z JuanDaugherty: to the extent the lisp community is part of the math community
2014-05-15T14:21:20Z vanila: quite so
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2014-05-15T14:27:18Z JuanDaugherty: but yeah a dp problem is way off topic here unless you are using lisp to solve it
2014-05-15T14:27:49Z ampharmex: I thought you guys would be?
2014-05-15T14:28:13Z JuanDaugherty: and the recursive nature of dp naturally sort of makes you think lisp might be useful
2014-05-15T14:28:20Z JuanDaugherty: but maybe not irl
2014-05-15T14:28:45Z JuanDaugherty: versus available solutions elsewhere
2014-05-15T14:28:57Z JuanDaugherty: mathematica has dp for example
2014-05-15T14:29:02Z ampharmex: I used Haskell myself.
2014-05-15T14:29:33Z JuanDaugherty: well there's doubtless a lisp dp lib
2014-05-15T14:29:45Z JuanDaugherty: it might predate CL
2014-05-15T14:30:57Z JuanDaugherty: or a binding to pkg that has
2014-05-15T14:31:09Z JuanDaugherty: i.e. a current binding
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2014-05-15T14:49:22Z kosc: Hello. I need to use brackets as a symbols (keys in hash-table). Any help, please?
2014-05-15T14:49:53Z H4ns: kosc: '|[|
2014-05-15T14:50:43Z kosc: H4ns: But what about '|(| ?
2014-05-15T14:50:52Z Bike: that works too
2014-05-15T14:50:55Z Bike: || is escaping.
2014-05-15T14:51:02Z H4ns: kosc: '|bla [ or ] blub ()()(())|
2014-05-15T14:51:38Z H4ns: kosc: '|bla [ or ] blub ()()(()) and even \|\||
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2014-05-15T14:52:15Z H4ns: kosc: (symbol-name '|bla [ or ] blub ()()(()) and even \|\||) => "bla [ or ] blub ()()(()) and even ||"
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2014-05-15T14:52:44Z oleo: i still am sucking at converting non tail call stuff to tail call.....
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2014-05-15T14:52:50Z oleo: oh man
2014-05-15T14:53:13Z H4ns: kosc: note: (symbol-name 'foo) => "FOO", but (symbol-name '|foo|) => "foo"
2014-05-15T14:53:28Z H4ns: oleo: the trick is not to use recursion in the first place :)
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2014-05-15T14:54:15Z oGMo: of course, you can always just (make-symbol "[") or whatnot (or intern, if you really want to spam a package)
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2014-05-15T14:54:56Z oleo: it's not my own stuff....
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2014-05-15T14:57:37Z kosc: H4ns: Oh, thank you, it works.
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2014-05-15T15:07:28Z vanila: "     This software utilizes the Muerte-level modules to build 3D desktop AI-enabled operating systems and the like." :||
2014-05-15T15:07:56Z vanila: from http://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/movitz.html
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2014-05-15T15:12:01Z oleo: it is incomplete....
2014-05-15T15:12:02Z oleo: afaik
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2014-05-15T15:27:57Z kosc: How do I get nth element from string?
2014-05-15T15:28:11Z |3b|: clhs elt
2014-05-15T15:28:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_elt.htm
2014-05-15T15:28:14Z |3b|: clhs char
2014-05-15T15:28:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_char_.htm
2014-05-15T15:29:12Z |3b|: clhs aref
2014-05-15T15:29:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_aref.htm
2014-05-15T15:29:22Z kosc: |3b|: Oh, char, good. Thank you.
2014-05-15T15:29:43Z Xach: or elt, or aref
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2014-05-15T15:36:06Z JuanDaugherty: didn't sbcl have a working generational gc at one point?
2014-05-15T15:36:41Z JuanDaugherty: albeit as a special build
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2014-05-15T15:37:18Z |3b| thought it was generational by default on x86/x8664
2014-05-15T15:38:06Z |3b|: :GENCGC in *FEATURES*
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2014-05-15T15:41:16Z JuanDaugherty: yes, I sifting thru the conflicting testimony
2014-05-15T15:41:24Z JuanDaugherty: am
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2014-05-15T15:43:29Z JuanDaugherty: and a quick check of local 1.1.14 shows it is
2014-05-15T15:44:19Z splittist: CL-USER> (sb-ext:generation-average-age 1)
2014-05-15T15:44:19Z splittist: 0.4297142654338035d0
2014-05-15T15:44:21Z nyef: SBCL on x86oids always uses gencgc. Any threaded SBCL requires gencgc. Not all SBCL ports support gencgc, and it is not necessarily default on those that support it.
2014-05-15T15:46:01Z JuanDaugherty is glad this wasn't one of those cases of a confabulated rosy scenario
2014-05-15T15:46:50Z splittist: CL-USER> (sb-ext:confabulated-rosy-scenario) => T
2014-05-15T15:47:08Z JuanDaugherty: i think it was not the default like 6 ya though
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2014-05-15T17:48:03Z KuboF: hi all, can someone please help me with (dotimes)? bit.ly/1nOMUn6
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2014-05-15T17:49:47Z Xach: KuboF: Can you use paste.lisp.org instead?
2014-05-15T17:50:54Z Bike: code on google docs is a new one for me
2014-05-15T17:51:09Z KuboF: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142578
2014-05-15T17:51:16Z Bike: you want (dotimes (n 5) ...) probably
2014-05-15T17:51:22Z kosc: KuboF: Where are you from (your variables names are so strange...)?
2014-05-15T17:51:32Z KuboF: Slovakia ;)
2014-05-15T17:51:43Z kosc: KuboF: Russia ;)
2014-05-15T17:51:47Z KuboF: I can make translation
2014-05-15T17:51:47Z Bike: darn, i was guessing polish
2014-05-15T17:52:00Z Bike: no need, you just have a simple syntax error.
2014-05-15T17:52:36Z Bike: also some style things i guess
2014-05-15T17:53:05Z kosc: Is there any internal function to get last character from string?
2014-05-15T17:53:12Z KuboF: Bike: where is the syntax error?
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2014-05-15T17:53:28Z Xach: kosc: no single function.
2014-05-15T17:53:28Z Bike: KuboF: (n (5)) is wrong
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2014-05-15T17:54:49Z KuboF: Bike: what should be to iterate from 0 to 4? I tried (n 5) but not work
2014-05-15T17:55:09Z KuboF: I am programing plugin for Audacity, do I am using a dialect Nyquist
2014-05-15T17:55:21Z KuboF: but (dotimes) should by the same as in Lisp
2014-05-15T17:55:23Z Bike: oh, well, this channel is for common lisp.
2014-05-15T17:55:37Z KuboF: aha
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2014-05-15T17:55:46Z Bike: (dotimes (n 5) (print n)) => 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, NIL
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2014-05-15T17:57:09Z jasom: nyquist is fairly close to CL, right? Isn't it an XLISP derivitive?
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2014-05-15T17:57:20Z Bike: unless you elaborate on "not work" i can't help beyond that
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2014-05-15T17:57:22Z Bike: jasom: yeah, it is.
2014-05-15T17:57:32Z Bike: but who knows what they do in domain-specific land.
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2014-05-15T18:04:06Z KuboF: thanks for now, it seems I have problem somewhere else...
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2014-05-15T19:24:09Z prxq: does anyone here use cl-user.net?
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2014-05-15T19:25:43Z Xach: I don't think it has been updated in many years
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2014-05-15T19:29:49Z prxq: Xach: looks like that to me too.
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2014-05-15T19:32:56Z Xach: What prompts the question?
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2014-05-15T19:35:33Z pjb`: We'd need a daemon to update web sites every 30 seconds…
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2014-05-15T19:43:52Z gingerale: Ah, excuse me. Would anyone happen to have the time to help out a bit with mysterious issues with Quicklisp under Windows 7?
2014-05-15T19:44:15Z Xach: What's up?
2014-05-15T19:44:16Z gingerale: What's happening is that doing the sbcl --load quicklisp.lisp fails with the most recent quicklisp.lisp file. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13406580/stuff/sbcl-ql-load-error.png
2014-05-15T19:45:03Z Xach: Oof. I don't know, sorry.
2014-05-15T19:45:06Z gingerale: It has worked in the past. Not sure if the same version of ql though. One day it was doing an update that kept breaking it so I decide to reinstall ql and it fails already at that part.
2014-05-15T19:45:18Z gingerale: Alrighty, thanks. :(
2014-05-15T19:45:26Z H4ns: gingerale: if you don't rely on sbcl private features, try clozure cl
2014-05-15T19:45:30Z Xach: That looks to me like an SBCL problem, but I don't know what.
2014-05-15T19:45:50Z Xach: I use quicklisp on windows very occasionally, unfortunately not lately.
2014-05-15T19:45:57Z redline6561: gingerale: You might ask on #sbcl seeing as it looks like a bug.
2014-05-15T19:46:21Z gingerale: Alrighty. I'll see if I can get somewhere with Coluzre first and then ask them. Thank you.
2014-05-15T19:46:46Z gingerale: *Clozure CL, can't type today
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2014-05-15T20:01:23Z JuanDaugherty: does ql work with clozure?
2014-05-15T20:01:39Z JuanDaugherty: i thought clozure wasn't even CL
2014-05-15T20:01:47Z Bike: that's clojure, not clozure, which is ccl.
2014-05-15T20:01:54Z Xach: Quicklisp works with Clozure
2014-05-15T20:01:55Z JuanDaugherty: yeah just realized
2014-05-15T20:02:07Z JuanDaugherty: was conflating j with z
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2014-05-15T20:02:08Z Xach: I work for Clozure and Quicklisp works with Clozure.
2014-05-15T20:03:14Z JuanDaugherty: did you see within last couple of days where some regulars were declaring CL daid?
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2014-05-15T20:03:46Z Xach: No. Where did that happen?
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2014-05-15T20:04:15Z JuanDaugherty: here within last 36 hours
2014-05-15T20:05:26Z JuanDaugherty: 04:37 UTC today apparently
2014-05-15T20:06:00Z Xach: Yeah, I see it now.
2014-05-15T20:06:17Z Xach: I don't think it means much.
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2014-05-15T20:10:10Z gingerale: I managed to get Quicklisp to work with CCL and load perfectly fine on emacs. Thanks for the help again. :)
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2014-05-15T20:40:46Z Viaken: People have been declaring Lisp dead for a while now.
2014-05-15T20:40:58Z Viaken: And CL in particular.
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2014-05-15T20:41:04Z Xach: Zombies have never been more popular
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2014-05-15T20:42:13Z p_l: or lively
2014-05-15T20:42:22Z JuanDaugherty: i remember in the early 90s how unix was declared dead
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2014-05-15T20:43:04Z p_l: well, it even started to smell bad, which is worse than CL tbh :P
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2014-05-15T20:43:39Z dim: well CL could be killed if something better where to take its place
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2014-05-15T20:43:48Z dim: I don't see python, ruby, javascript and the likes doing that
2014-05-15T20:44:00Z dim: maybe ocaml and haskell and racket are contenders
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2014-05-15T20:49:07Z nyef: "Never believe that something is dead until you have seen the body, and even then you can make a mistake."
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2014-05-15T20:49:54Z nyef: ... that might have been a misquote from Dune, but it's been a while since I've read the book.
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2014-05-15T20:51:29Z prxq: could as well be some hardboiled fiction
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2014-05-15T20:53:25Z nyef: I'm distinctly thinking that it was from an exchange between two sisterhood agents watching Feyd-Rautha in the arena on Geidi Prime, but that could be a spectacularly strong hash-collision.
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2014-05-15T20:57:30Z p_l: nyef: I think the quote about checking for body is so widespread that hash collisions are dime a dozen
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2014-05-15T20:58:18Z nyef: Fair enough.
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2014-05-15T21:00:38Z prxq: is there a reasonably current "getting started with common lisp" page around?
2014-05-15T21:00:49Z pjb`: http://cliki.net/
2014-05-15T21:01:41Z pjb` changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new>. |Contact op if you can't speak| New: asdf 3.1.2, cl-launch 4.0.4
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2014-05-15T22:48:14Z p_l finds "stop-the-world" function in linux kernel, a patch that uses it actually scans the stack xD
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2014-05-16T00:12:12Z republican_devil: what do lispers think of prolog?
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2014-05-16T00:15:31Z Viaken: I'm sure there's varied opinions. I don't know anything of what the majority think.
2014-05-16T00:15:46Z phadthai: it's considered useful for rule-definition based problems; there are prolog-style libraries for lisp  http://cliki.net/site/search?query=prolog
2014-05-16T00:15:54Z pillton: I think my work would benefit from the ability to prove that certain conditions are true.
2014-05-16T00:16:31Z pillton: It is on my to do list for the next year or so.
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2014-05-16T00:59:53Z zRecursive: clhs ldb
2014-05-16T00:59:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ldb.htm
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2014-05-16T01:15:03Z flip214: does anyone know if there's a way to simply get a parse tree from c files using vacietis, without having to (manually) "compile" all included files?
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2014-05-16T01:39:20Z republican_devil: cl-irregexpr
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2014-05-16T01:51:33Z pjb`: flip214: IIRC there's a function to get the parsed sexp from a C string.
2014-05-16T01:52:33Z pjb`: flip214: but notice that usual sources are not C sources, but C pre-processor sources, and couldn't possibly be parsed without applying the C pre processor (including processing the #includes where needed the #defines will be found).
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2014-05-16T03:21:13Z rangoon: anyone here?
2014-05-16T03:21:41Z Bike: course.
2014-05-16T03:22:41Z rangoon: did you find lisp hard to learn?
2014-05-16T03:22:58Z Bike: nah
2014-05-16T03:23:09Z rangoon: what did you learn lisp with?
2014-05-16T03:23:15Z rangoon: a certain book or books?
2014-05-16T03:23:25Z Bike: minion: pcl
2014-05-16T03:23:25Z minion: pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2014-05-16T03:24:12Z rangoon: oh
2014-05-16T03:24:24Z rangoon: what kind of programs are you writing in lisp?
2014-05-16T03:25:59Z Bike: not writing any at the moment, personally
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2014-05-16T03:30:58Z phadthai: rangoon: anything you like; common lisp is multiparadigm; kernel work is not impossible but less common
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2014-05-16T03:32:25Z p_l: biggest issues on the road to kernel work would be IMO GC (not its existence, but proper control over it) and preparing a subset to run some fastpaths without interrupts and GC... to implement GC, among other things
2014-05-16T03:32:46Z phadthai: yes
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2014-05-16T03:32:52Z p_l: not undoable
2014-05-16T03:32:59Z p_l: and that's assuming going all the way in CL
2014-05-16T03:33:06Z p_l: or at least CL-based
2014-05-16T03:33:30Z phadthai: he disconnected unfortunately so can't read these
2014-05-16T03:34:22Z p_l: heh
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2014-05-16T03:35:31Z phadthai: I'm not even sure my own line made it, as he was disconnected for 240 seconds timeout, about a minute after I answered
2014-05-16T03:37:12Z Bike: "made it"?
2014-05-16T03:37:35Z Bike: oh, misread, sorry.
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2014-05-16T03:38:28Z Poenikatu: Hello. Just to let you know that I have produced the Debian packages for sbcl 1.1.18: sbcl, sbcl-doc and sbcl-source. These are not official, but can be obtained from my web-site: http://www.poenikatu.co.uk/src/
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2014-05-16T03:41:45Z Poenikatu: Oops! I should have checked Debian unstable. They have 1.1.18  anyway. Sorry to bother you.
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2014-05-16T03:42:32Z deego: Poenikatu: np, nice work that you pkged sbcl.
2014-05-16T03:43:48Z Poenikatu: deego: Kind of you to say so. It was just a matter of transferring the debian directory and adding something to the changelog. It would be better to get the Debian versions rather than mine 'cos the changelog will be properly done.
2014-05-16T03:45:36Z Poenikatu: deego: I've deleted my unofficial copies from my web-site. Get the Debian versions in unstable.
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2014-05-16T06:13:55Z kosc: Hello, how do I get nth element from hash-table, not from list.
2014-05-16T06:13:58Z kosc: ?
2014-05-16T06:14:08Z Zhivago: hash-tables are not ordered -- your question does not make sense.
2014-05-16T06:14:55Z kosc: Zhivago: ok.
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2014-05-16T08:06:19Z Code_Man`: is ccl still maintained?
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2014-05-16T08:06:48Z H4ns: Code_Man`: very much so.
2014-05-16T08:07:05Z Code_Man`: do you know when 1.9 was released?
2014-05-16T08:07:21Z H4ns: Code_Man`: they have a web site with information, did you try looking at that?
2014-05-16T08:07:33Z Code_Man`: yes but it couldnt find the date
2014-05-16T08:07:41Z Code_Man`: *i
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2014-05-16T08:07:56Z H4ns: look into the subversion log
2014-05-16T08:08:07Z Code_Man`: ok
2014-05-16T08:08:21Z H4ns: or google "clozure cl release notes"
2014-05-16T08:08:24Z H4ns: how hard can it be?
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2014-05-16T08:41:41Z Sonderblade: anyone familiar with NIL here?
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2014-05-16T08:43:36Z splittist: Sonderblade: the New Implementation of Lisp?
2014-05-16T08:44:23Z leo2007: Code_Man`: 2013
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2014-05-16T08:44:23Z leo2007: are there videos from els2014?
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2014-05-16T08:44:26Z jasom: Sonderblade: the symbol?
2014-05-16T08:44:26Z H4ns: Sonderblade: are you talking about the new implementation of lisp?
2014-05-16T08:44:40Z Sonderblade: H4ns: yes
2014-05-16T08:45:05Z H4ns: Sonderblade: "haha"
2014-05-16T08:45:14Z H4ns: :)
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2014-05-16T08:45:49Z splittist: Sonderblade: do you have sources?
2014-05-16T08:46:04Z H4ns: Sonderblade: i think you need to talk to jonl white, if you can get ahold of him.  and "familiar" would then probably not the word that would describe his relation to the language.
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2014-05-16T08:46:29Z Sonderblade: splittist: sources what?
2014-05-16T08:46:41Z splittist: For NIL.
2014-05-16T08:46:55Z splittist: Sorry - source code.
2014-05-16T08:47:08Z Sonderblade: no
2014-05-16T08:47:50Z H4ns: Sonderblade: why are you interested in nil, if i may ask?
2014-05-16T08:48:10Z H4ns: Sonderblade: is it not an ancient lisp running on ancient systems, that never really saw the light of usage?
2014-05-16T08:48:53Z Sonderblade: it's used by some big banks here that need NIL experts
2014-05-16T08:49:16Z Sonderblade: and i want to know if it is similar to ELisp which i do know
2014-05-16T08:49:18Z splittist: Sonderblade: on S-1's ?
2014-05-16T08:49:19Z H4ns: Sonderblade: uuhhh.  that's a nice reason.
2014-05-16T08:49:31Z H4ns: splittist: is it not a vax implementation?
2014-05-16T08:49:59Z H4ns imagines a bunch of emulated vaxen running very ancient software that moves billions each day
2014-05-16T08:50:14Z splittist: splittist: initially, then ported to the S-1 Mark IIA
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2014-05-16T08:51:34Z H4ns: Sonderblade: if i were you, i'd be interested in the job :)
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2014-05-16T08:51:47Z splittist: Sonderblade: you can find an introduction and reference manual etc here http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/maclisp_family/#NIL,_S-1_Lisp_
2014-05-16T08:52:34Z splittist: Put that together with some MacLisp documentation and I think you could describe yourself as an expert (:
2014-05-16T08:54:05Z splittist: Sonderblade: I'll send you my bank details so you can send me 10% of your earnings...
2014-05-16T08:55:22Z Sonderblade: haha sure
2014-05-16T08:56:55Z splittist: But more seriously, if you do find out more, or even get the job, there are a number of folks here who would like to hear about it, and what working with an exotic legacy lisp system is like. (Albeit technically slightly off-topic.)
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2014-05-16T09:03:18Z H4ns: uuh, it even runs on vms
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2014-05-16T09:19:56Z dim: clhs ::
2014-05-16T09:19:56Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for ::.
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2014-05-16T09:23:41Z splittist: dim: you might be looking for http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_ce.htm
2014-05-16T09:23:52Z splittist feels a bit like clippy
2014-05-16T09:23:57Z dim: nice, thanks
2014-05-16T09:24:23Z dim: it's not always possible to answer RTFM to friends... when you don't know where in the manual things are explained
2014-05-16T09:26:30Z dim: for the same friend, is there a way to 'ping' from CL without resorting to run-program and friends?
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2014-05-16T09:31:59Z H4ns: dim: not in a very practical fashion.  you need special privileges to create a raw socket.
2014-05-16T09:33:10Z dim: yeah
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2014-05-16T09:54:05Z gofk: Is the :type specifier on a class slot supposed to actually enforce that type?
2014-05-16T09:54:22Z H4ns: gofk: no.  it can be ignored by the compiler and in practice it often is.
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2014-05-16T09:55:24Z gofk: Oh, I wonder why, I would've thought sbcl would like to make compact structs
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2014-05-16T09:56:17Z H4ns: gofk: sbcl might do that, it is just not guaranteed to be "enforced"
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2014-05-16T09:56:39Z phadthai: dim: a possibility would be using privilege separation, i.e. a root daemon process, with which the rest of the unprivileged application could communicate (via a pipe, socketpair, unix socket, etc)
2014-05-16T09:57:00Z H4ns: gofk: if you require control over the memory layout of your data structures, cl is not a very convenient language in the first place.
2014-05-16T09:57:26Z gofk: I don't want to control them, just thought my hints would be used
2014-05-16T09:57:37Z H4ns: gofk: ... the difference being?
2014-05-16T09:57:45Z gofk: Is it undefined if the programmer doesn't respect the types?
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2014-05-16T09:58:17Z H4ns: gofk: yes
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2014-05-16T09:59:26Z phadthai: dim: another, starting the application as root (which would be required for privilege separation anyway), have it create the sockets and then drop privileges to a configured user
2014-05-16T10:00:08Z phadthai: alternatively, suid root
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2014-05-16T10:08:07Z phadthai: gofk: indeed, if you need that, you have to rely on a specific implementation which for instance signals type-error when trying to assign a value of a mismatching type; or you could use a library building structs/objects with the requirements you need, i.e. perhaps on top of vectors, or built around an FFI library supporting multiple implementations like CFFI
2014-05-16T10:08:51Z phadthai: custom object systems abound in lisp
2014-05-16T10:10:16Z phadthai: including some with persistence, others prototype-based instead of class based etc
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2014-05-16T10:40:23Z croaker: ok
2014-05-16T10:40:26Z croaker: learning lisp
2014-05-16T10:40:30Z croaker: whats best way
2014-05-16T10:40:45Z croaker: winston and horn? gentle intro? ansi common is too tuff 4me
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2014-05-16T10:47:03Z phadthai: croaker: a gentle introduction and practical common lisp, then pehaps  on lisp  when more advanced
2014-05-16T10:47:14Z phadthai: s/pehaps/perhaps/
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2014-05-16T10:52:50Z croaker: ok
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2014-05-16T10:55:49Z croaker: http://mmondor.pulsar-zone.net/mmsoftware.html impressive
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2014-05-16T11:03:58Z phadthai: croaker: thanks
2014-05-16T11:04:31Z croaker: how long have you programmed in lisp?
2014-05-16T11:05:00Z phadthai: a few years, although not steadily
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2014-05-16T11:07:10Z croaker: ever do any kind of web site using lisp?
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2014-05-16T11:09:24Z phadthai: myself?  That site is hosted using a lisp server (crow-httpd), but there are no serious framework or applications written for that so far, but others here have written lisp web applications I'm sure, possibly using huchentoot and lisp frameworks
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2014-05-16T11:10:02Z axion: of course. thats all i do is lisp webdev :)
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2014-05-16T11:10:11Z axion: for last 2-3 years
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2014-05-16T11:11:56Z phadthai: hmm it seems that my oldest Common Lisp tests date to about 5 years already, time goes by so fast
2014-05-16T11:12:23Z axion: the older you are the faster time goes by
2014-05-16T11:12:27Z phadthai: indeed
2014-05-16T11:12:39Z croaker: bigtime
2014-05-16T11:12:49Z croaker: crow-httpd?
2014-05-16T11:12:59Z axion: you might want to idle in #lispweb
2014-05-16T11:13:06Z axion: few of us are there
2014-05-16T11:13:11Z phadthai: croaker: the last entry on that page you linked
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2014-05-16T11:14:42Z croaker: interesting
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2014-05-16T11:16:17Z croaker: so you previously did c and js for websites?
2014-05-16T11:16:33Z croaker: it seems node.js has recently goten big maybe it is similar?
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2014-05-16T11:19:32Z croaker: my dream is to make a lisp powered website
2014-05-16T11:22:31Z croaker is now known as leucomorph
2014-05-16T11:23:59Z Zhivago: Well, that shouldn't take more than an afternoon.
2014-05-16T11:26:54Z leucomorph: but first I must learn lisp, and I want to have some dynamic content, not just static, and I have yet to write an html input form.
2014-05-16T11:27:32Z leucomorph: can it really be so easy?
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2014-05-16T11:34:18Z lorefyr: hi #lisp
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2014-05-16T11:37:54Z leucomorph: hello
2014-05-16T11:38:03Z leucomorph: thank you for the encouragement Zhivago
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2014-05-16T11:39:27Z splittist: leucomorph: there's even a book. https://leanpub.com/lispweb You can see the tutorial it grew out of here http://www.adampetersen.se/articles/lispweb.htm (but the details are out of date).
2014-05-16T11:39:39Z axion: leucomorph: with lisp you dont need to write html...or css...or js
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2014-05-16T11:39:48Z axion: i have a really good link for you as well...
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2014-05-16T11:40:07Z leucomorph: can you write lisp and somehow the css js html comes out?
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2014-05-16T11:40:22Z leucomorph: I read that smalltalk web framework can do something like that
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2014-05-16T11:40:28Z leucomorph: so you learn and write lisp
2014-05-16T11:40:36Z leucomorph: but web site is produced?
2014-05-16T11:40:54Z axion: http://lispwebtales.ppenev.com
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2014-05-16T11:42:33Z axion: leucomorph: yes
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2014-05-16T11:43:27Z leucomorph: !
2014-05-16T11:43:48Z leucomorph: so I don't have to bother learning html css js and all the alphabet soup?
2014-05-16T11:43:59Z axion: right, but it helps
2014-05-16T11:44:04Z axion: I'd recommend reading Practical Common Lisp first, before attempting anything. It's a fun read.
2014-05-16T11:44:16Z H4ns: well, in the end, you'll obviously need to learn about all the technologies that you use
2014-05-16T11:44:16Z axion: Your first priority is learning some Lisp, so get reading! :)
2014-05-16T11:44:16Z phadthai: leucomorph: I've not used C for web application writing, but for daemon writing; PHP and JS mostly for web application writing so far, using lisp would be nice but currently I could only do that as a personal project, unless I relocated and changed job... and unfortunately, I don't like the web enough to do that as a hobby much; work is enough :)
2014-05-16T11:45:00Z leucomorph: heh
2014-05-16T11:45:12Z leucomorph: thanks gentlemen
2014-05-16T11:45:16Z leucomorph: off I go to read!
2014-05-16T11:45:17Z leucomorph: love it
2014-05-16T11:45:19Z axion: read it online for free
2014-05-16T11:45:26Z axion: come back with questions. have fun
2014-05-16T11:45:32Z phadthai: I agree with the others that with a good framework touching html directly should become rare
2014-05-16T11:45:33Z leucomorph: I can't open that lisp web tales link
2014-05-16T11:45:56Z axion: it is down at the moment. you'll have to read google's cache or wait for it to come back up. it was last seen online 2 days ago
2014-05-16T11:46:46Z leucomorph: ill email link to myself then
2014-05-16T11:48:45Z leucomorph: thanks all
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2014-05-16T11:53:37Z jtza8: How would I flush the buffer for the *standard-output* stream in SBCL?
2014-05-16T11:53:51Z H4ns: jtza8: finish-output?
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2014-05-16T11:54:00Z jtza8: Ah yes, thanks.
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2014-05-16T12:24:55Z Viaken: Are other people able to get to http://lispwebtales.ppenev.com ?
2014-05-16T12:25:13Z Viaken: Because I first saw the link yesterday and it's not ever loaded for me.
2014-05-16T12:26:02Z Viaken: Oh, I just caught up with scrollback. Sorry!
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2014-05-16T12:43:09Z oleo: morning
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2014-05-16T16:05:57Z Poenikatu: I've spent much of today reading the manual of the cl-cffi-gtk package that someone here pointed out to me. Very interesting
2014-05-16T16:06:38Z Poenikatu: What is now needed is a gtk-builder which extends the capability of the gtk-ui-manager.
2014-05-16T16:06:59Z Poenikatu: Is anybody working on such a project?
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2014-05-16T16:07:57Z Xach: I don't think so.
2014-05-16T16:08:54Z Poenikatu: It would be lovely to be able to use Glade to create user interfaces
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2014-05-16T16:15:17Z oGMo: i thought cl-gtk2 already had glade stuff but it's been eons since i used that
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2014-05-16T16:26:41Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2014-05-16T16:26:50Z Viaken: Good evening, beach.
2014-05-16T16:26:58Z p_l|backup: ... for a moment I thought it was 0500
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2014-05-16T16:27:29Z beach: p_l|backup: Are you making fun of my working hours?
2014-05-16T16:28:28Z drewc: it is 09:27! just time to start working!
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2014-05-16T16:29:53Z p_l|backup: beach: no, I'm just so used to see a good morning from you as hint that I forgot to go to sleep :)
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2014-05-16T16:31:56Z p_l|backup: beach: btw, of the tools you might want too look up for benchmarking things like pagefaults etc.: http://perf.wiki.kernel.org/
2014-05-16T16:32:20Z beach: p_l|backup: Noted.  Thanks.
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2014-05-16T16:33:56Z p_l|backup: on my machine, among other things, it exports cache and TLB stats
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2014-05-16T16:34:41Z beach: If anyone feels like reviewing my papers before I ship them off to ILC, I would be grateful.  There are 3 of them.  Not sure about the quality of the one on "satiation" because I don't know how PCL or other CLOS implementations do it.
2014-05-16T16:34:46Z beach: Here they are: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf http://metamodular.com/sliding-gc.pdf http://metamodular.com/satiation.pdf
2014-05-16T16:35:28Z beach: I need to vanish for a while in a moment, but I'll read the logs if anyone has comments.
2014-05-16T16:35:57Z beach: nyef: Did you have time to look at the GC paper?
2014-05-16T16:37:35Z nyef: That I did.
2014-05-16T16:37:41Z beach: Great!
2014-05-16T16:37:55Z Krystof: beach: without having done more than skim, regarding satiation, does the SICL implementation depend just on CLOS, or on a CLOS with some specific MOP support?
2014-05-16T16:38:24Z beach: Krystof: CLOS + the existence of funcallable-standard-object.
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2014-05-16T16:38:57Z Krystof: one of the reasons why closer integration of PCL to the rest of SBCL is tedious is that SBCL doesn't want to assume anything much beyond CLtS
2014-05-16T16:39:16Z beach: CLtL?
2014-05-16T16:39:21Z Krystof: CLtStandard
2014-05-16T16:39:26Z beach: Ah, yes.
2014-05-16T16:39:35Z beach: I agree with that.
2014-05-16T16:39:51Z Krystof: so we'd have to implement a tedious amount of machinery to effectively implement funcallable-standard-object (and other things) ourselves
2014-05-16T16:40:02Z beach: I tried using standard-generic-function, but ran into trouble because both the host and the target would interpret the initargs.
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2014-05-16T16:40:48Z beach: I did it differently before, and that worked too, but it was a mess.
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2014-05-16T16:45:12Z beach: nyef: Any comments?
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2014-05-16T16:46:08Z beach: Krystof: I am definitely not happy about having to assume the existence of funcallable-standard-object, so I may give it some thought later.
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2014-05-16T16:49:10Z beach: For anyone interested in GC techniques for modern processors, I highly recommend the paper by Kermany et al that I refer to in the sliding-gc paper.
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2014-05-16T16:50:34Z beach: I have pretty much made up my mind to use it for the "rack" part of general instances in the general GC in SICL.
2014-05-16T16:50:34Z nyef: beach: About the only thing that came to mind was a possible L1-cache explanation for the effect of table size on CPU time.
2014-05-16T16:50:57Z beach: nyef: Where I was confused?
2014-05-16T16:51:26Z nyef: "We have no explanation as to why the time does not increase monotonically with the table size" towards the end of section 4.3.
2014-05-16T16:51:31Z beach: Yes.
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2014-05-16T16:52:15Z beach: nyef: OK, if you can put your explanation in a phrase or two, I would be interested.  It is not essential, though for the results in the paper.
2014-05-16T16:52:16Z nyef: That, plus possibly a minimum attribution of CPU time, might explain it a little bit.
2014-05-16T16:52:23Z Krystof: beach: original PCL built up special objects and made sure to do everything through "gdefinition" and "invoke-generic" (I can't actually remember the second name -- maybe generic-funcall or something)
2014-05-16T16:52:53Z beach: Krystof: Sounds complicated.
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2014-05-16T16:53:47Z j_king: clear
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2014-05-16T16:54:06Z j_king: +ly
2014-05-16T16:54:20Z beach: j_king: ?
2014-05-16T16:54:51Z j_king: beach: sorry; having troubles with my irc bouncer. wrong #
2014-05-16T16:54:59Z beach: Ah, OK.
2014-05-16T16:55:12Z j_king should be fine now. :)
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2014-05-16T16:55:45Z beach: Krystof: Anyway, since you have worked on SBCL's version of PCL, I would appreciate any comments you might have.
2014-05-16T16:56:17Z mega1: I've pushed a typed genetic programming lib to github: https://github.com/melisgl/mgl-gpr
2014-05-16T16:56:25Z mega1: for your pleasure.
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2014-05-16T16:57:09Z beach: nyef: Thanks for taking the time to look at it.
2014-05-16T16:57:21Z nyef: beach: Thanks for the interesting read.
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2014-05-16T16:58:22Z beach: OK, got to go.  BBL.
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2014-05-16T17:26:18Z kosc: Hello everyone.
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2014-05-16T17:28:53Z kosc: I need to get char's index from string, but I have this char as a symbol: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142590
2014-05-16T17:29:26Z kosc: Should I convert symbol to string or there is some better desicion?
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2014-05-16T17:31:38Z antoszka: kosc: (position #\a "bar")
2014-05-16T17:31:55Z kosc: antoszka: Oh, thank you.
2014-05-16T17:32:24Z antoszka: np
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2014-05-16T17:40:51Z samebchase: kosc: SEARCH is used for subsequence matching try (search "one" "thisone")
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2014-05-16T20:23:28Z dim: any sqlite users? it seems like their "concept of manifest typing" is bitting me and cl-sqlite returns simple-string where simple-array of unsigned-byte 8 is expected
2014-05-16T20:23:43Z dim: I could still pay for the conversion, provided there's a meaningfull way to do it
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2014-05-16T20:52:11Z Posterdati: hi
2014-05-16T20:52:37Z Posterdati: I've got a problem with cl-plot: ; Evaluation aborted on #<SB-KERNEL::UNDEFINED-ALIEN-FUNCTION-ERROR c_plwidth {1003910FD3}>.
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2014-05-16T21:01:31Z H4ns: Posterdati: wrong foreign library version.
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2014-05-16T21:03:04Z Posterdati: ok
2014-05-16T21:03:13Z Posterdati: I'm trying (ql:update-all-dists)
2014-05-16T21:03:21Z Posterdati: Condition QL-DIST:BADLY-SIZED-LOCAL-ARCHIVE was signalled.
2014-05-16T21:03:52Z Posterdati: delete and retry it's ok...
2014-05-16T21:05:39Z Posterdati: ah it is recompiling plplot now
2014-05-16T21:06:35Z Posterdati: same error!
2014-05-16T21:06:58Z Posterdati: sbcl version 1.1.13
2014-05-16T21:07:04Z H4ns: Posterdati: google for c_plwidth and you'll find what library you need.
2014-05-16T21:07:18Z H4ns: Posterdati: it is well-known problem.  hints in the first page.
2014-05-16T21:07:28Z Posterdati: ah thanks
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2014-05-16T21:15:27Z dim: I think I solved my SQLite3 datatype issues, but it's not pretty.
2014-05-16T21:15:52Z dim: I used to think of SQLite in a good way, I'm done with that now that I know of their "manifest typing" idea and what it means
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2014-05-16T21:17:59Z Posterdati: H4ns: I didn't found any hints yet :)
2014-05-16T21:19:14Z drmeister: Question about optimizing performance in Common Lisp...
2014-05-16T21:19:34Z drmeister: I'm calling POSITION, it's very slow.
2014-05-16T21:20:13Z Bike: it's probably linear search
2014-05-16T21:20:18Z drmeister: I'm calling POSITION looking for a string within a larger string and it's very slow.  Is there a way to optimize this with say compiler macros?
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2014-05-16T21:20:45Z drmeister: Bike: it is a linear search, written in Common Lisp and compiled with my compiler that generates unoptimized code.
2014-05-16T21:20:47Z dim: have a look at Boyer&Moore algo for searching substrings
2014-05-16T21:20:59Z Bike: or rather, use the built in function.
2014-05-16T21:21:00Z Bike: clhs search
2014-05-16T21:21:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_search.htm
2014-05-16T21:21:12Z Bike: or... is that what you're implementing?
2014-05-16T21:21:19Z dim: oh, drmeister, have a look at http://clstringmatch.sourceforge.net/
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2014-05-16T21:21:26Z nyef: drmeister: Use a better algorithm, and add more compiler smarts.
2014-05-16T21:21:45Z Bike: string matching is a nifty problem, you can rewrite it as bit twiddling!
2014-05-16T21:21:46Z nyef: STEAL a better implementation, if necessary.
2014-05-16T21:22:01Z drmeister: nyef: Regarding "add more compiler smarts".   How do you go about doing that?
2014-05-16T21:22:12Z Bike: rather a broad question, don't you think
2014-05-16T21:22:22Z nyef: Depends on the compiler, and the specific smarts you want to add.
2014-05-16T21:22:42Z dim: drmeister: I would see how to implement BM for the specific case of substring searches
2014-05-16T21:22:44Z drmeister: Yes - it is a broad question - I'm asking more for what facilities are built into the Common Lisp spec to do this generally.
2014-05-16T21:22:59Z drmeister: Compiler macros for instance - I haven't used/implemented them yet.
2014-05-16T21:23:30Z Bike: ccl uses compiler macros for a lot of optimizations, try M-.ing to you favorite builtin
2014-05-16T21:23:37Z Bike: sbcl uses deftransform, which is more sophisticated
2014-05-16T21:23:44Z Bike: for high-level optimizations in both cases, understand
2014-05-16T21:23:45Z drmeister: Is there a way to write a compiler macro that recognizes that the arguments to POSITION are strings and so it should compile in a string matching algorithm?
2014-05-16T21:24:13Z Bike: compiler macros can't conformingly look at type of arguments (which i dislike, but oh well)
2014-05-16T21:24:18Z dim: I think it's meant to be used that way yes, drmeister
2014-05-16T21:24:20Z Bike: in an internal macro you can. i think ccl does so.
2014-05-16T21:24:26Z dim: I've only played with that in qmynd
2014-05-16T21:24:49Z dim: https://github.com/qitab/qmynd/blob/master/src/wire-protocol/basic-types.lisp has some compiler macros examples
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2014-05-16T21:25:39Z drmeister: So compiler macros don't look at the types of arguments?
2014-05-16T21:25:44Z Bike: cl doesn't even have constant-form-value, you can't really do a lot of general optimizations with compiler macros :(
2014-05-16T21:25:53Z Bike: drmeister: they receive the unevaluated forms, like a macro
2014-05-16T21:25:55Z nyef: drmeister: What I'd look at doing in that case is having a version of POSITION specialized for strings, say POSITION/STRING, and arrange that POSITION dispatch to an appropriate specialized version based on its arguments, and THEN look at getting the compiler to do the dispatch for me.
2014-05-16T21:26:12Z Bike: drmeister: if the form is "foo" then obviously you can tell that's a string, but if it's FOO that could evaluate to anything
2014-05-16T21:26:39Z foom: that's why I always write sbcl deftransforms instead of compiler-macros
2014-05-16T21:26:40Z drmeister: nyef: So POSITION would dispatch at runtime to POSITION/STRING based on the arguments?
2014-05-16T21:26:52Z Bike: at compile-time, if possible
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2014-05-16T21:27:31Z drmeister: Bike: Right - we don't know the type until runtime.
2014-05-16T21:27:33Z Bike: for example in (locally (declare (string x y)) (search x y)) it's pretty obvious you can compile to a specialized version, assuming you don't care for safety
2014-05-16T21:27:41Z Bike: tradeoffs, see
2014-05-16T21:28:06Z drmeister: What does sbcl deftransforms give you that's special?
2014-05-16T21:28:26Z Bike: they tell the compiler function the inferred types
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2014-05-16T21:29:17Z Bike: bunch of other stuff too, like they don't return or operate on forms, for one (iirc)
2014-05-16T21:29:38Z drmeister: What is the point of compiler-macros?  They don't seem to do anything special that regular macros don't do.
2014-05-16T21:29:53Z |3b|: compiler macros can default to just calling a real function
2014-05-16T21:30:05Z |3b|: and there is a function with the same name you can funcall/apply
2014-05-16T21:30:20Z |3b|: they are just an optimization though, and implementations can ignore them
2014-05-16T21:34:39Z drmeister: If I started declaring types everywhere in my code would it be possible to augment compiler macros so that they would compile in code appropriate to the declared types?   Am I stepping beyond the CL standard in thinking this?
2014-05-16T21:35:08Z Bike: you are, but you are allowed to
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2014-05-16T21:35:29Z Bike: i wrote sort of a shitty thing about this https://github.com/Bike/compiler-macro
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2014-05-16T21:36:01Z drmeister: Bike: Allowed to what exactly?    Enhance compiler macros so that they use type info?
2014-05-16T21:36:05Z drmeister is reading bikes thing
2014-05-16T21:36:44Z Bike: drmeister: yeah. users can't define compiler macros on anything in the CL package, so if the implementation wants to have compiler macros for those you can go nuts
2014-05-16T21:36:52Z Bike: again, look at CCL for this
2014-05-16T21:37:50Z drmeister: I can't define compiler macros on anything in the CL package?   I don't understand that.
2014-05-16T21:37:59Z Bike: Users can't. You, the implementor, can.
2014-05-16T21:38:14Z Bike: Users can't in case the implementor did, see.
2014-05-16T21:38:56Z Bike: The idea being that if drmeister-cl relies on compiler macros to make CL:SEARCH less snail like, some user defining their own CL:SEARCH compiler macro is going to erase yours and fuck that up.
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2014-05-16T21:39:04Z drmeister: So users can't define compiler macros?
2014-05-16T21:39:14Z nyef: They can, but only for their own functions.
2014-05-16T21:39:17Z Bike: They can't define compiler macros /on CL symbols/
2014-05-16T21:39:26Z Bike: their own symbols are fine, of course
2014-05-16T21:39:35Z drmeister: Ah - I see.
2014-05-16T21:40:39Z drmeister: Since I haven't implemented compiler macros yet I don't know where they live.   But they live in a separate space from functions.
2014-05-16T21:41:14Z Bike: they have their own space, since you can define them on functions without erasing the function, or on macros without erasing the macro
2014-05-16T21:41:23Z Bike: they're entirely global so that makes things easy
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2014-05-16T21:42:28Z Bike: you could just (defvar *compiler-macros* (make-hash-table :test #'eq)) and go from there, pretty much
2014-05-16T21:42:36Z Bike: i forget if compiler-macro-function has to care about shadowing
2014-05-16T21:43:18Z Bike: maybe different implementations did different things. test suite for my thing was 'interesting'
2014-05-16T21:43:21Z drmeister: Going way, way back to basics... My global symbols have a FUNCTION slot and a VALUE slot.   I don't have a separate MACRO slot.   I thought I would store compiler macros in a HASH-TABLE that associates the symbol with the compiler macro.
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2014-05-16T21:43:39Z Bike: i'm pretty sure that would work, yeah.
2014-05-16T21:43:43Z nyef: Stick 'em on the PLIST?
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2014-05-16T21:44:17Z drmeister: Here are all the instance variables in my C++ Symbol class: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/566059644a7a778d1130
2014-05-16T21:44:19Z nyef: Are you at the point of running ansi-tests yet?
2014-05-16T21:44:57Z drmeister: If you define a macro on a function - I erase the function - right?
2014-05-16T21:45:02Z Bike: yeah.
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2014-05-16T21:45:43Z Bike: actually, the worrying part of that for me is symbol specialness being a global property instead of in the environment, but that's nothing to do with compiler macros.
2014-05-16T21:46:47Z drmeister: nyef: I tried about a year ago and realized it needed COMPILE-FILE-PATHNAME and that required me to implement all the PATHNAME code - that took a while - since then I've been working on static analysis of C++ and implementing moving garbage collection.
2014-05-16T21:46:54Z |3b|: cltl had some functions for querying the compilation environment that didn't make it into ansi, so if you implement those you could write semi-portable compiler macros that could use them to take declarations into account
2014-05-16T21:46:57Z drmeister: Short answer: No - I haven't run the ansi-tests on it yet.
2014-05-16T21:47:09Z Bike: (my thing uses those cltl things)
2014-05-16T21:48:10Z |3b|: or you could implement your own stuff, and have compiler-macros in your implementation overlap with something like sbcl's deftransform (as long as portable compiler macros still worked properly)
2014-05-16T21:49:28Z |3b|: though if you do any type inference/propagation, you might want something separate like sbcl has, since that probably happens after compiler-macro expansion
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2014-05-16T21:50:04Z drmeister: |3b|: I know the functions of which you speak (is there a less Yoda-like way of saying that?).     I've been meaning to implement those.
2014-05-16T21:50:25Z Bike: "I know the functions you talkin' 'bout"
2014-05-16T21:51:28Z Denommus: drmeister: moving garbage collection?
2014-05-16T21:51:34Z drmeister: I was talking with the guys from Franz Inc maybe two years ago about dynamic environments when I barely had a clue and they went on and on about those functions.   Now I have a much firmer grasp of things.
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2014-05-16T21:52:56Z drmeister: My copy of CLTL is at home.   Those environment query functions, do they give you lexical type information?
2014-05-16T21:53:06Z drmeister presumes that they do based on the conversation.
2014-05-16T21:53:22Z Bike: yes
2014-05-16T21:53:38Z Bike: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node102.html has all of it
2014-05-16T21:53:44Z Bike: the interface is kind of ugly, imo
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2014-05-16T21:54:27Z drmeister: Denommus: Yes, moving garbage collection.
2014-05-16T21:55:06Z Posterdati: please, is anyone using plplot and having a problem with undefined c_plwidth function binding? Thanks
2014-05-16T21:55:20Z Bike: you'd have something like (define-compiler-macro foo (bar &environment env) ... (assoc 'type (nth-value 2 (variable-information bar env))) ...)
2014-05-16T21:55:34Z drmeister: Bike: Right - it's all coming back.   Back then I was working on the Common Lisp interpreter.   Information on how Common Lisp environments are supposed to function is very sketchy in the CLHS, and it is so crucial to get them right.
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2014-05-16T21:56:48Z Denommus: drmeister: what is a moving garbage collection?
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2014-05-16T22:00:58Z drmeister: Ok, thanks - this conversation is tying up a lot of loose ends and ideas that have been rattling around in my head for a long time.    I've implemented a Common Lisp (dynamic, lots of run-time introspection) that interoperates with C++ (static).   They are two ends of a spectrum.   I've been thinking about how to get Common Lisp to do more optimization at compile time.   I realize I'm an amateur compared to all the other CL implementers bef
2014-05-16T22:00:59Z drmeister: ore me and I'm curious about what the CL community has come up with wrt using lexical type information at compile time.
2014-05-16T22:01:17Z Bike: sbcl's basically the best at that.
2014-05-16T22:01:34Z Bike: ccl does some with compiler macros, so i'll just say, yet again, might wanna take a look
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2014-05-16T22:02:02Z drmeister: What does SBCL have that lets them do more compile time, type-aware optimization?
2014-05-16T22:02:27Z drmeister: Bike: Thanks for that info on CCL - I'm going to follow up on that.
2014-05-16T22:02:44Z Bike: it does a /lot/ of type inference.
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2014-05-16T22:02:51Z Bike: which is why it's so slow to compile.
2014-05-16T22:03:05Z |3b|: drmeister: sbcl does type inference/propagation, then has deftransforms that run after that
2014-05-16T22:03:27Z Bike: and then with all this type information it can do fancy optimizations like division-as-multiplication that rely on ranges and shit
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2014-05-16T22:08:09Z drmeister: What about boxing/unboxing types?   One of the things I've been thinking about that makes C/C++ fast is I can create arrays of structs and get good locality of reference rather than following pointers all over the place.  There's no way to really do this in CL is there?
2014-05-16T22:08:45Z Bike: no, i think sbcl does that too. it's called representation selection.
2014-05-16T22:09:01Z foom: no, you can't create an array of structs all inline
2014-05-16T22:09:26Z foom: What you *can* do is allocate them all at the same time, and hope that they allocated near eachother.
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2014-05-16T22:09:59Z foom: (which will almost certainly be true. And hope the GC doesn't spread them out again later, which it...might.)
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2014-05-16T22:10:50Z drmeister: I was thinking about laying out a struct in CL sort of like you do with CFFI and then generating accessors.  But then I thought "Why?  Just do that stuff in C++".
2014-05-16T22:10:52Z Bike: i don't know how arrays of structs go in sbcl.
2014-05-16T22:10:56Z erikc: or you make some macro that supports some intrinsic types (like C types) and lays them out according to some ABI (say, the C ABI), and you have an object wrapper pointing to an appropriately sized byte array with methods that know how to access the fields by layout
2014-05-16T22:11:08Z erikc: that’s what Factor does
2014-05-16T22:11:22Z drmeister: erikc: What is Factor?
2014-05-16T22:11:38Z Bike: a concatenative programming language
2014-05-16T22:11:42Z Bike: stacky
2014-05-16T22:11:47Z abeaumont: http://factorcode.org/
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2014-05-16T22:12:09Z erikc: a concatenative language with a lispy vm
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2014-05-16T22:12:31Z drmeister: Ugh - it's insufficiently lisp-like.
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2014-05-16T22:12:52Z Bike: it does have quotation, iirc
2014-05-16T22:12:59Z Bike: kind of offtopic as a thing in itself, though
2014-05-16T22:13:03Z oleo: it's forth like....
2014-05-16T22:13:40Z erikc: but in a nutshell, if you can malloc memory and have primitive load/store functions at offsets in that memory
2014-05-16T22:13:41Z Bike: drmeister: with arrays you can do some memory packy stuff, regardless of your static type inference capabilities, since there are specialized arrays
2014-05-16T22:13:45Z drmeister: Ok, then I take back some of the terrible things I immediately thought about it.
2014-05-16T22:13:56Z erikc: nothing prevents you from building packed binary data structures
2014-05-16T22:14:08Z Bike: drmeister: that is, you might have (make-array ... :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) actually allocate a byte array
2014-05-16T22:14:41Z Xach: luis: how would you describe the current slime release? awesome, or super-awesome?
2014-05-16T22:15:12Z drmeister: Bike: Yes - I know about those.   I have yet to implement them but I've got a great way to do it with C++ template programming.
2014-05-16T22:15:29Z Bike: i'm just saying there's some locality you can get without worrying about the compiler at all
2014-05-16T22:15:46Z foom: drmeister: yes, my work software makes large data structs in C++. The lisp code accesses fields on them via sb-alien.
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2014-05-16T22:17:03Z Bike: drmeister: sb-vm:*specialized-array-element-type-properties* might be interesting to look at
2014-05-16T22:18:11Z erikc: foom: how do you grep out the binary layouts?
2014-05-16T22:18:22Z drmeister: foom: I guess I do similar things - the Clang compiler generates large abstract syntax trees in C++ and my lisp code accesses them through my C++ interaface.   Also my compiler talks to the LLVM C++ library to build LLVM-IR.
2014-05-16T22:18:45Z Xach: drmeister: did you see the Energize video?
2014-05-16T22:19:04Z drmeister: Xach: Which one is that?   Did I miss something?
2014-05-16T22:19:21Z erikc: i used to have a library for mining the layouts from DWARF data, but scrapped the whole thing once the place i worked needed to support the Microsoft toolchain
2014-05-16T22:19:29Z Xach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQQTScuApWk&list=UUBByjlfugSdMHPlf73YbVBA
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2014-05-16T22:22:18Z foom: erikc: I don't. I write the same struct layout in lisp. You can ensure the sizes match, as an easy sanity check.
2014-05-16T22:23:25Z drmeister: Xach: No - I'm watching it now.
2014-05-16T22:23:53Z drmeister: Did Lucid write their own C++ compiler?
2014-05-16T22:24:25Z foom: It'd be a good project to use a tool to auto-extract the struct layouts, but, haven't been bothered to so far.
2014-05-16T22:24:41Z Xach: drmeister: I think so.
2014-05-16T22:24:49Z Xach: I can't quite tell, though.
2014-05-16T22:25:07Z Xach: The source for what looks like a Lucid C compiler is on archive.org.
2014-05-16T22:26:27Z drmeister: The Lisp world is like a parallel universe that I just discovered three years ago.   It has so many good ideas and on the other side are so many people ignoring/oblivious to them.
2014-05-16T22:26:36Z p_l: didn't Lucid C++ compiler end up becoming Sun Studio?
2014-05-16T22:27:06Z p_l: I recall running Lucid's XEmacs-based IDE few years ago when meddling with departamental SunOS 5.9
2014-05-16T22:27:24Z p_l: (except it was called "Workshop" I think and was part of Sun Studio)
2014-05-16T22:27:28Z drmeister: BBL - gotta run and catch a train.
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2014-05-16T22:27:56Z p_l: Xach: link to the archive.org lucid trove, pretty please?
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2014-05-16T22:29:13Z Xach: It's not exactly a trove. It's a 3.6GB .tar file
2014-05-16T22:29:34Z Xach: https://archive.org/details/archiveteam-lucid-collection
2014-05-16T22:30:24Z Bike: wow, i don't think i've ever seen that much source in my life
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2014-05-16T22:33:29Z Xach: It's not all source. Some many hundreds of MB make up a quicktime video of that energize demo
2014-05-16T22:33:45Z Xach: There are also a lot of object files / executables for ancient 90s hardware
2014-05-16T22:34:36Z Bike: oh.
2014-05-16T22:34:52Z Xach: But there is a bunch of lisp source, including a 1993 slime-alike called LEP
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2014-05-16T22:35:30Z Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142588
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2014-05-16T22:40:25Z drmeister: What's the most idiomatic way to test if the arguments to POSITION are strings (POSITION <string> <string> ...) and dispatch to the function POSITION/STRING
2014-05-16T22:40:35Z drmeister: (typep arg1 'string)?
2014-05-16T22:41:13Z Xach: Couldn't you fold it to nil, since you can't find a string in a string?
2014-05-16T22:41:38Z Xach: You can find a char in one, though.
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2014-05-16T22:42:39Z drmeister: (defun position  (item sequence ...)  (if (and (typep item 'string) (typep sequence 'string)) (POSITION/STRING item sequence ...) (POSITION/GENERAL item sequence ...))
2014-05-16T22:42:39Z drmeister: Xach: I don't understand.
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2014-05-16T22:42:51Z Bike: drmeister: are you confusing POSITION and SEARCH
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2014-05-16T22:43:37Z Bike: position looks for a thing in a sequence, like (position 4 '(4 3 2 1)) => 0
2014-05-16T22:43:49Z drmeister: Bike: I don't think so but let me check ... I'm reading the code I use for POSITION:    https://gist.github.com/drmeister/3fa9c9280471e7398a54
2014-05-16T22:44:28Z Xach: drmeister: no element of a string can possibly be a string.
2014-05-16T22:44:32Z Bike: well, that's position, and obviously a string isn't going to be an element of another string
2014-05-16T22:44:52Z drmeister: Oh crap - hang on - I might be thinking about an ECL-specific function.
2014-05-16T22:45:07Z Xach: You could use a bizarre KEY function perhaps.
2014-05-16T22:45:21Z Xach: (position "a" "false" :key 'string)
2014-05-16T22:45:27Z drmeister: Yeah - not POSITION - give me a sec.
2014-05-16T22:46:04Z Xach: or maybe not
2014-05-16T22:46:08Z Bike: anyway, once you figure out what function you mean, i'd just do (and (stringp seq1) (stringp seq2))
2014-05-16T22:47:00Z Bike: Xach: it works if you specify a working test
2014-05-16T22:47:49Z drmeister: Yeah - SEARCH and SEARCH/STRING  not POSITION and POSITION/STRING   - sheesh.  I had to scramble to make sure I didn't have (POSITION string1 string2 all over the place in my static analyzer.  It would have been very mysterious why things were working.
2014-05-16T22:48:50Z drmeister: Bike: Ok,   so you would use (stringp seq1) rather than (typep seq1 'string)?
2014-05-16T22:49:00Z Bike: sure. i mean, they're the same thing.
2014-05-16T22:50:02Z Bike: don't forget to worry about the key parameters. you're gonna have more like POSITION/STRING/NOKEY/NOTEST/NOTFROMEND. a whole cross product of bullshit, yay!
2014-05-16T22:51:35Z drmeister: Hmm, I ask because in my implementation (stringp seq1) dispatches to a virtual function that returns false for all classes and is overloaded for String so that it returns true.   TYPEP is written in Common Lisp and is complicated.  I think STRINGP will be much faster in my implementation.
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2014-05-16T22:51:48Z Bike: drmeister: that too.
2014-05-16T22:52:01Z drmeister: I mean STRINGP will be much faster than TYPEP in my implementation.
2014-05-16T22:52:15Z Bike: it's common across other ones.
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2014-05-16T22:52:28Z Bike: i think sbcl's typep implementation involves several transforms and three layers of functions
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2014-05-16T22:54:03Z foom: But why wouldn't you just transform (typep x 'string) into (stringp x)?
2014-05-16T22:54:13Z jasom: drmeister: its easy enough to add source-level optimizations for (typep x CONSTANT-EXPR)
2014-05-16T22:54:25Z Bike: you would, but guess who doesn't have source-level transforms yet! (it's drmeister)
2014-05-16T22:54:43Z jasom: Bike: well I'm sure they'll come eventually
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2014-05-16T22:56:39Z drmeister: The ECL SEARCH function dispatches to SEARCH-VECTOR if (and (vectorp seq1) (vectorp seq2))  - so there you go.
2014-05-16T22:56:57Z drmeister: But it's still a linear search written in Common Lisp.
2014-05-16T22:57:55Z Bike: "linear search" isn't an algorithm for finding subsequences
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2014-05-16T22:58:53Z drmeister: Bike: Isn't it?  Hang on - let me look at SEARCH-VECTOR more closelier.
2014-05-16T22:59:11Z Bike: no, "linear search" is the kind of thing you'd use to implement POSITION or FIND
2014-05-16T22:59:18Z Bike: searching for one element, which is not what CL:SEARCH does
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2014-05-16T23:02:35Z Bike: naive subsequence search algorithm is, uh, quadratic i wanna say
2014-05-16T23:03:11Z Bike: yes.
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2014-05-16T23:07:35Z drmeister: What does quadratic mean in this context?  Time is related to the product of the length of seq1 and the length of seq2?
2014-05-16T23:07:46Z Bike: yeah.
2014-05-16T23:08:02Z Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_searching_algorithm#Basic_classification
2014-05-16T23:08:28Z drmeister: My bigger problem is that it's written in Common Lisp which is compiled by my non-optimizing compiler and running using reference counting == sloooow.
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2014-05-16T23:09:03Z Bike: the other ones are more or less also quadratic but have the advantage that they don't restart a million times on strings full of partial matches, stuff like that
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2014-05-16T23:09:37Z Bike: reference counting? you shouldn't need to do any allocation...
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2014-05-16T23:10:00Z drmeister: I could easily dispatch to a C++ function like string::find - except string::find doesn't handle all the subsequence options the Common Lisp function handles.
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2014-05-16T23:10:31Z Bike: only dispatch from POSITION/STRING/NOKEY/NOTEST/NOTFROMEND, obviously :p
2014-05-16T23:11:37Z drmeister: Bike: Maybe not in this case.     I don't usually worry about the speed as long as it's fast enough.  But I think speeding up SEARCH for the specific case of strings would massively speed up my static analyzer which currently clocks in at about 2 hours start to finish.
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2014-05-16T23:12:10Z drmeister: And that's running four parallel copies, each doing 1/4 of the work.
2014-05-16T23:12:23Z Bike: well, probably. i just mean that i don't think even lisp's general SEARCH should need to cons
2014-05-16T23:12:40Z drmeister: Bike: Good idea - I'll do the POSITION/STRING/NOKEY/NOTEST/NOTFROMEND thing.
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2014-05-16T23:14:03Z drmeister: Bike: reference counting happens whenever I enter and exit a function for every local variable.
2014-05-16T23:14:30Z drmeister can see you wince.
2014-05-16T23:14:42Z Bike: ah. yes. well
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2014-05-16T23:15:13Z drmeister: And this is why I'm incorporating a moving garbage collector.    Horse and buggy to super-sonic jet.
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2014-05-16T23:15:54Z Bike: i don't think the fanciest GC possible is going to save you if you heap allocate everything, but good luck
2014-05-16T23:16:00Z drmeister: Or more like strapping a super-sonic jet to my horse and buggy.
2014-05-16T23:16:06Z drmeister will need a faster compiler.
2014-05-16T23:16:25Z drmeister: Bike: One step at a time.
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2014-05-16T23:17:29Z Bike: on the bright side, everything will be so slow that you won't have to worry about subtleties like locality!!
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2014-05-16T23:18:13Z drmeister: That's where the faster compiler is necessary and maybe by then I can get help to write it.
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2014-05-16T23:21:59Z drmeister: I will be sad though if I switch on the moving garbage collector and it's not noticeably faster than the reference counted version.
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2014-05-16T23:26:59Z drmeister: Here's my new SEARCH function - I'll deal with subsequences but I'll let the ECL code deal with test/test-not/key/from-end.  https://gist.github.com/drmeister/8ba20497924ee6e726cf
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2014-05-16T23:30:03Z drmeister: Is this a typo in the CLHS?    What is "start-end"?  For example, when start-end is true, the sequence might actually be searched from left to right instead of from right to left (but in either case would return the rightmost matching subsequence)
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2014-05-16T23:30:43Z Xach: I think it is supposed to be from-end
2014-05-16T23:30:51Z Bike: yeah, seems like a typo
2014-05-16T23:31:03Z drmeister: This is from the CLHS Function: SEARCH
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2014-05-16T23:32:44Z Bike: probably should throw that on http://www.cliki.net/proposed%20ansi%20revisions%20and%20clarifications, i guess
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2014-05-16T23:38:50Z drmeister: I did not know there was a place for that - ok, I'll have to check if it's a new issue, register and put that up.
2014-05-16T23:39:28Z drmeister: BBL  - time to walk home.
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2014-05-17T00:13:14Z joe-w-bimedina: can someone tell me the exact lisp equivelant of this C++ statement  4 || !(1 & 1);
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2014-05-17T00:15:21Z p_l|backup: ... that's... quite the nonsensical statement, iirc
2014-05-17T00:15:42Z p_l|backup: but this should fit: (or 4 (lognot (logand 1 1)))
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2014-05-17T00:16:27Z joe-w-bimedina: so the or would be used instead of logior all the time right?
2014-05-17T00:16:46Z p_l|backup: joe-w-bimedina: no. It's just that you used || instead of | which is a different operation
2014-05-17T00:16:50Z p_l|backup: (IIRC)
2014-05-17T00:17:28Z joe-w-bimedina: so or when I call || then, all the time?
2014-05-17T00:17:29Z p_l|backup: logior makes more sense, but maps 4|!(1&1);
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2014-05-17T00:18:24Z p_l|backup: joe-w-bimedina: || is short-circuiting. I do not remember how it ends up in C++ for integers, but in truth testing, || can terminate if left argument is true
2014-05-17T00:19:36Z joe-w-bimedina: so then || is or because or in Lisp always terminates?...I really appreciate your quick assistance on this
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2014-05-17T00:20:49Z Bike: no, it's or because in C/whatever || is logical or, rather than bitwise or.
2014-05-17T00:21:27Z joe-w-bimedina: ok..thank you very much
2014-05-17T00:21:43Z p_l|backup: || vs | can be an annoying bug in C
2014-05-17T00:22:08Z joe-w-bimedina: I'll watch out for that
2014-05-17T00:22:32Z Bike: i suppose the expression reduces to 4 anyway.
2014-05-17T00:22:34Z Bike: either way
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2014-05-17T00:22:54Z p_l|backup: Bike: bitwise OR gives -2
2014-05-17T00:23:09Z joe-w-bimedina: it did...it's basic logic though I had to be 100% sure
2014-05-17T00:23:12Z Bike: oh, mixed up what ! does
2014-05-17T00:23:34Z Bike: er, wait, isn't ! logical negation?
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2014-05-17T00:23:53Z joe-w-bimedina: I think so
2014-05-17T00:24:09Z Bike: 1 & 1 => 1, !1 => 0, x || 0 => x
2014-05-17T00:24:17Z Bike: (and x | 0 => x)
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2014-05-17T00:24:54Z p_l|backup: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142592
2014-05-17T00:25:06Z p_l|backup: though I guess I might have mixed up with logical/bitwise negation
2014-05-17T00:25:19Z White_Flame: and of course, or = logical or, logior = bitwise or, always seems to be a strange naming convention to me
2014-05-17T00:25:30Z Bike: p_l|backup: right, it's -2 with bitwise
2014-05-17T00:25:37Z Bike: life's too short to keep track of c operators
2014-05-17T00:25:48Z White_Flame: ~x is bitwise negation in C
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2014-05-17T00:26:56Z p_l|backup: Bike: and that's just with C. You don't want to hit a template lurking somewhere with code like that
2014-05-17T00:27:42Z Bike: https://ideone.com/jd7xrb lol
2014-05-17T00:27:45Z p_l|backup: (doesn't matter if you didn't put any templates in your own code, even...)
2014-05-17T00:30:12Z Bike: well, i think i
2014-05-17T00:30:20Z Bike: messed that up, but it shows 1 for logical or
2014-05-17T00:30:38Z joe-w-bimedina: Hey...im getting unreachable code errors..this is what I was trying to convert... if( event == 4 || !(0 & 1) )... to this (if (eq event (or 4 (lognot (logand 0 1))))... I know its probably because of the or but is there a workaround
2014-05-17T00:31:23Z p_l|backup: ouch
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2014-05-17T00:31:53Z Bike: the hell are you translating
2014-05-17T00:32:24Z p_l|backup: I'm pretty sure there's better way to code that instead of straight translation, but I would need to know the semantics behind it
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2014-05-17T00:32:49Z Bike: i can't imagine why anyone would write || !(0 & 1)
2014-05-17T00:32:49Z _death: this is equivalent to if (event == 4) ... also, you want to use EQL or = for comparing integers
2014-05-17T00:34:18Z joe-w-bimedina: A inpaint algorithm...it's like the clone stamp in photoshop...here is a gist... can i explain anything about it https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/4e8c5b962895eda3fe40
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2014-05-17T00:36:55Z Bike: that is completely different.
2014-05-17T00:37:13Z Bike: do you know that flags is zero or something?
2014-05-17T00:37:35Z joe-w-bimedina: 0 or 1 or 8 or 17, 18, 19
2014-05-17T00:37:43Z joe-w-bimedina: or 9
2014-05-17T00:37:56Z Bike: don't talk about it like it's constantly zero, then!
2014-05-17T00:38:06Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry about that
2014-05-17T00:39:14Z Bike: then it's (or (= event EVENT_LBUTTONP) (zerop (logand flags EVENT_LFLAG_BUTTON))), i think
2014-05-17T00:39:17Z _death: the condition would be (and (= event mouse-move) (= lbutton (logand flags lbutton)))
2014-05-17T00:39:51Z _death: oh, I thought the third condition
2014-05-17T00:40:10Z Bike: i just picked the one that resembled the original question
2014-05-17T00:40:22Z _death: Bike: yeh, mea culpa
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2014-05-17T00:40:33Z joe-w-bimedina: need both ...
2014-05-17T00:40:45Z Bike: if you're really translating this you'll probably want to move away from C-style ints everywhere, anyway
2014-05-17T00:41:15Z Bike: that's "C-style (ints everywhere)" not "(C-style ints) everywhere"
2014-05-17T00:41:57Z joe-w-bimedina: using cffi, don't need anything too drastic just something for those 2 conditionals
2014-05-17T00:42:27Z joe-w-bimedina: I have a rough draft of the Lisp version if u want to see
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2014-05-17T00:42:57Z Bike: oh, well that's it then. == is =, || is or, ! on an int is zerop, & is logand, && is and, and i think that covers everything there
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2014-05-17T00:43:38Z joe-w-bimedina: if that is set in stone, you are the man!
2014-05-17T00:44:01Z Bike: for future reference, in a C expression like "a == foo || bar", the operator precedence works out like "(a == foo) || bar"
2014-05-17T00:45:07Z joe-w-bimedina: I was familiar with that but I'll add the other to my notes..thanks alot
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2014-05-17T01:45:29Z drmeister: Dispatching to my C++ implemented SEARCH-STRING (using std::string::find) from SEARCH shaved a whole 10 seconds off of a 650 second test run.
2014-05-17T01:45:43Z drmeister: Another example of the dangers of ad-hoc, premature optimization (sigh).
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2014-05-17T01:47:11Z drmeister: It's a test where I search the AST of one C++ file for every C++ class (~55,000 classes).
2014-05-17T01:47:55Z nyef: So, almost 11 minutes for a test run?
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2014-05-17T01:48:38Z nyef: That's actually a pretty frightening number of classes.
2014-05-17T01:49:07Z Bike: drmeister: maybe you should invest in writing a profiler.
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2014-05-17T02:04:13Z notori0us: hey friends
2014-05-17T02:04:49Z notori0us: is there a way in CLISP to "roll your own" eval? that is, when clisp is evaling expressions, can I put a wrapper (whitelist) on expressions?
2014-05-17T02:05:11Z Bike: you could write your own evaluator
2014-05-17T02:05:38Z Bike: what exactly do you want to do?
2014-05-17T02:05:48Z notori0us: whitelist
2014-05-17T02:05:59Z notori0us: for a publically facing REPL
2014-05-17T02:05:59Z Bike: Whitelist of what, though?
2014-05-17T02:06:07Z Bike: forms, macros, functions?
2014-05-17T02:06:14Z notori0us: built-in lisp functions
2014-05-17T02:06:18Z notori0us: symbols, really
2014-05-17T02:06:45Z notori0us: "do this if this sexp is OK"
2014-05-17T02:07:32Z Bike: you might be better off with a safe reader, then
2014-05-17T02:08:04Z notori0us: doh
2014-05-17T02:08:09Z notori0us: that's a better archinectural decision
2014-05-17T02:08:40Z notori0us: sometimes I get too excited about the convolluted approach :P
2014-05-17T02:08:55Z notori0us: yeah, just enumerating symbols before eval should do the trick
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2014-05-17T02:13:03Z notori0us: lol, well here's a question, is there any way to get the tokens out of a sexp
2014-05-17T02:13:14Z notori0us: (that's done already, I mean)
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2014-05-17T02:38:00Z pjb`: notori0us: writing a lisp evaluation take TWO pages!  One in small print.
2014-05-17T02:38:08Z pjb`: notori0us: so what's your problem again?
2014-05-17T02:39:44Z notori0us: uhhhh whitelisting
2014-05-17T02:39:55Z notori0us: there is a public facing repl (irc, oh god)
2014-05-17T02:40:16Z notori0us: people break things. How can we safely evaluate expressions that people (oh god, again) throw at it
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2014-05-17T02:42:25Z Bike: give up and run everything in qemu
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2014-05-17T02:43:23Z notori0us: hahaha hey that's not an interesting problem to solve, though :P
2014-05-17T02:43:38Z notori0us: I did see that shellbot that ran everything in quemu though
2014-05-17T02:43:39Z notori0us: really interesting
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2014-05-17T02:49:17Z Bike: another channel i'm in has a bot that spins up user-mode linux for every command. it works weirdly well
2014-05-17T02:50:13Z notori0us: yeah, that's the bot architecture of the one I was talking about
2014-05-17T02:50:23Z notori0us: well, similar
2014-05-17T02:50:26Z notori0us: but yeah, it works
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2014-05-17T03:42:52Z pjb`: notori0us: somebody already wrote an irc CL eval bot.  Check the logs, it was dicussed a one or two years ago IIRC.
2014-05-17T03:43:06Z pjb`: or: https://github.com/tlikonen/cl-eval-bot
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2014-05-17T03:53:44Z White_Flame: notori0us: even if you were to do that, you'd have to ban symbols like intern, read, etc because they would allow the creation of symbols at runtime after you whitelisted the source
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2014-05-17T04:15:51Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-05-17T05:58:51Z beach: Hmm, pruning an instruction graph is harder than I first thought, especially in the presence of φ functions.
2014-05-17T06:01:43Z beach: [The context is Cleavir, so it's not off-topic]
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2014-05-17T06:03:45Z Bike: i can't read " φ functions" except as something about turing machines
2014-05-17T06:04:26Z beach: Bike: This time it's about SSA (Static Single Assignment) form.
2014-05-17T06:07:04Z beach: The intermediate form (MIR) is a graph of instructions.  After SSA, some of those are φ functions (or φ instructions, rather).  As part of some transformations, some branches may not be possible, so the graph needs to be pruned.
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2014-05-17T06:09:49Z beach: But φ instructions are special because they refer to the predecessor instructions, so if a predecessor is removed because it can not be reached from the entry instruction, then the φ instruction needs to be modified as well.
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2014-05-17T06:11:17Z beach: To complicate things even more, there could be several consecutive φ instructions, so the "predecessor" is not necessarily the immediate predecessor.  Gah! Complicated!
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2014-05-17T08:18:27Z Posterdati: please I need help with cl-plplot:  The alien function "c_plwidth" is undefined.
2014-05-17T08:18:27Z Posterdati:    [Condition of type SB-KERNEL::UNDEFINED-ALIEN-FUNCTION-ERROR]
2014-05-17T08:18:40Z Posterdati: plplot 5.9.9-5
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2014-05-17T08:32:25Z H4ns: you need to find the right version of the plplot library
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2014-05-17T08:51:19Z Posterdati: H4ns: solved! Using vecto
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2014-05-17T10:37:08Z puchacz: hi, I was asking recently about parsing html in the wild. somebody said they were working on user-submitted translations of webpages and the system was using CXML.
2014-05-17T10:37:55Z puchacz: achieving times like 10ms
2014-05-17T10:39:09Z puchacz: have we got searchable log of the chat? I can't remember who it was
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2014-05-17T10:41:15Z beach: minion: Please tell puchacz about logs.
2014-05-17T10:41:15Z minion: puchacz: direct your attention towards logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000)
2014-05-17T10:41:29Z beach: puchacz: Just use wget to download them, then grep.
2014-05-17T10:41:41Z puchacz: beach: thanks!
2014-05-17T10:43:38Z beach is guessing it waas nightshade427_.
2014-05-17T10:43:50Z puchacz: beach: correct! thanks again
2014-05-17T10:44:04Z puchacz: nightshade427_: you around?
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2014-05-17T11:00:13Z puchacz: from eyeballing documentation and playing in REPL I am concluding I should be using PT representation in Closure HTML, if speed is my priority, correct?
2014-05-17T11:02:07Z puchacz: but it has private-looking things inside like cache
2014-05-17T11:02:09Z puchacz: so maybe not
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2014-05-17T11:20:57Z samebchase: How do I loop over the bits of an integer?
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2014-05-17T11:23:15Z nyef: (loop for i from 0 below (integer-length x) for current-bit = (ldb (byte 1 i) x) do ...)
2014-05-17T11:23:31Z nyef: Or the other way around if you want to start from the left.
2014-05-17T11:23:41Z samebchase: nyef: nice. Thanks!
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2014-05-17T11:23:47Z nyef: And there's logbitp if you want a boolean rather than integer.
2014-05-17T11:24:21Z nyef: And that's for a dynamically-sized integer. If you have a specific width in mind, use it instead of the call to INTEGER-LENGTH.
2014-05-17T11:24:25Z puchacz: beach: before I start grepping logs - can you remember who wrote jquery like selectors for html please....? I really need to keep notes!
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2014-05-17T11:33:26Z mood: puchacz: There's this: https://github.com/AccelerationNet/css-selectors/
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2014-05-17T11:36:18Z puchacz: mood: thanks a lot
2014-05-17T11:37:51Z puchacz: mood: do you know if it "just works" with lhtml representation as built by closure html?
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2014-05-17T11:39:03Z mood: puchacz: I am using css-selectors through https://github.com/pocket7878/Caramel for a website of mine, and as far as I can see it does
2014-05-17T11:39:20Z puchacz: mood: thx again
2014-05-17T11:40:34Z mood: Shinmera also seems to be working on related things, with his Plump html parser and CLSS selector library (http://shinmera.github.io/CLSS/)
2014-05-17T11:44:54Z puchacz: now I remember - it was him :-)
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2014-05-17T12:53:27Z Shinmera: puchacz: Coincidentally I just released lQuery3 today which uses Plump&CLSS. Previous versions used CSS-Selectors&CHTML/CXML
2014-05-17T12:53:54Z puchacz: Shinmera: in github URL as above?
2014-05-17T12:54:10Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.github.io/lquery/
2014-05-17T12:54:18Z puchacz: thx
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2014-05-17T13:02:41Z Shinmera: puchacz: If you have questions/problems I'd be glad to help.
2014-05-17T13:03:02Z puchacz: Shinmera: thanks in andvance :)
2014-05-17T13:03:23Z puchacz: at the moment I have a vague memory of you saying that it can't handle html5....
2014-05-17T13:03:24Z puchacz: correct?
2014-05-17T13:03:32Z Shinmera: Well CXML/CHTML can't
2014-05-17T13:03:34Z Shinmera: Plump can.
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2014-05-17T13:03:47Z Shinmera: So lQuery3 can by extension too
2014-05-17T13:04:07Z Shinmera: CXML can handle html5 if it is xhtml5.
2014-05-17T13:04:25Z Shinmera: But that will be the vast minority of websites
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2014-05-17T13:08:16Z puchacz: Shinmera: what constructs are rejected? custom data- tags?
2014-05-17T13:08:28Z Shinmera: puchacz: by CHTML or?
2014-05-17T13:08:33Z puchacz: yes
2014-05-17T13:08:41Z Shinmera: all the new HTML5 tags
2014-05-17T13:08:47Z puchacz: I try to switch to chtml (from libxml2)
2014-05-17T13:09:07Z Shinmera: CHTML requires a DTD, which HTML5 doesn't have
2014-05-17T13:09:37Z puchacz: I see
2014-05-17T13:10:07Z puchacz: I may need to downgrade HTML5 (lossly) to HTML4 then when found in the wild
2014-05-17T13:10:43Z Shinmera: What's your reason for wanting to use chtml?
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2014-05-17T13:12:53Z puchacz: Shinmera: libxml2 is native and I have to be ubercareful to operate within with-parse-html macro, so I dont leak memory. I am also afraid I adding and removing nodes is not as efficient as plain list operations in closure html, remains to be proven. I do not like the fact that I cannot really store parsed html, it must be destroyed by macro
2014-05-17T13:13:42Z Shinmera: Personally I'd recommend using cl-html5-parser and seeing about parsing to some other dom representation if you need to use it in combination with another lib.
2014-05-17T13:14:00Z nyef: Oh, a word of advice if you're dealing with this stuff through a test suite: Store externalized HTML/XML/whatever, not the internal representations, in case you want to switch libraries again later, or even just figure out what a given parser is doing.
2014-05-17T13:14:19Z puchacz: any known problems with cl-html5-parser?
2014-05-17T13:14:46Z Shinmera: I haven't really used it myself, but if it works according to html5 spec it should be able to handle any kind of document, since that's what html5 is about.
2014-05-17T13:14:59Z puchacz: even horribly malformed?
2014-05-17T13:15:09Z Shinmera: I am thinking of writing an extension to plump so I can use it to parse to plump's dom instead, allowing it to be used with lQuery.
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2014-05-17T13:16:40Z Shinmera: Well with "horribly malformed" the question becomes how you want it to "fix" it.
2014-05-17T13:16:50Z Shinmera: But it parses pretty ugly stuff without complaining
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2014-05-17T13:17:57Z kosc: Hello, very helpful channel.
2014-05-17T13:17:59Z puchacz: Shinmera: good; if I am after speed, shall I use :XMLS as representation?
2014-05-17T13:18:09Z Shinmera: puchacz: can't say, I haven't benchmarked.
2014-05-17T13:18:12Z kosc: I need to get a char from string as a symbol.
2014-05-17T13:18:22Z puchacz: Shinmera: ok, nw
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2014-05-17T13:20:04Z stassats: symbols have string names
2014-05-17T13:20:36Z stassats: (string (char string 0)) will give you a string
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2014-05-17T13:21:35Z puchacz: Shinmera: oops, cl-html5-parser is about 5 times slower than closure html
2014-05-17T13:21:50Z puchacz: (unless I am doing somethig wrong and it checks something on the web)
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2014-05-17T13:23:26Z Shinmera: plump should be fast, but it might choke on certain documents.
2014-05-17T13:24:50Z puchacz: back to chtml then, it can handle things like <div data-custom-id='sss'>
2014-05-17T13:24:58Z puchacz: but it removed <article> tag
2014-05-17T13:25:10Z puchacz: maybe I can add few html5 tags and I am done :-)
2014-05-17T13:25:22Z Shinmera: can you give me a sample of the documents you want to parse so I  can test plump against them?
2014-05-17T13:25:40Z puchacz: Shinmera: well, I am playing in REPL, for example:
2014-05-17T13:25:42Z puchacz: (chtml:parse "<article><div data-custom-id='sss' class='sf'>foo</div></article>" (chtml:make-lhtml-builder))
2014-05-17T13:26:51Z puchacz: and I discovered cl-html5-parser is 5 times slower on this document
2014-05-17T13:27:09Z puchacz: (defparameter *html-content* (drakma:http-request "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmanned_aerial_vehicle"))
2014-05-17T13:27:20Z stassats: puchacz: it's html_5_ after all
2014-05-17T13:27:23Z stassats: t times slower seems fair
2014-05-17T13:27:26Z stassats: 5
2014-05-17T13:27:33Z puchacz: ha
2014-05-17T13:27:49Z puchacz: why not 5/4 slower? it is a jump from 4 to 5
2014-05-17T13:30:42Z puchacz: ok, I will add article/section etc into html4 dtd and job seems done :-)
2014-05-17T13:30:56Z Shinmera: puchacz: http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.05.17-02.png
2014-05-17T13:31:42Z puchacz: Shinmera: and now try (time (html5-parser:parse-html5 *html-content*))
2014-05-17T13:31:43Z puchacz: :-)
2014-05-17T13:32:04Z stassats: Shinmera: that's less than 4/5
2014-05-17T13:32:08Z puchacz: of course you need (ql:quickload "cl-html5-parser") (require 'cl-html5-parser)
2014-05-17T13:32:33Z stassats: but, if you consider non-gc time, it's 4/5 slower
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2014-05-17T13:34:01Z Shinmera: I'm fairly sure that I'm doing something very dumb in Plump and could speed it up a lot still, but I currently lack the energy to dive back into it.
2014-05-17T13:34:36Z puchacz: Shinmera: plump has respectable time in this screenshot, and your chtml parse is similar to mine
2014-05-17T13:34:52Z puchacz: if you use cl-html5-parser though, you will see it is about 5 times longer
2014-05-17T13:35:11Z Shinmera: I got ~10 times slower in fact
2014-05-17T13:35:42Z Shinmera: Regardless, I still want to make Plump faster than CHTML at some point.
2014-05-17T13:35:57Z puchacz: you got 10 times slower what?
2014-05-17T13:36:05Z puchacz: sorry, me might be blind
2014-05-17T13:36:10Z Shinmera: cl-html5 was 10x slower than chtml
2014-05-17T13:36:15Z puchacz: ah
2014-05-17T13:36:18Z puchacz: possible
2014-05-17T13:36:49Z Shinmera: plump should always be just a smidgen slower than chtml currently.
2014-05-17T13:37:01Z puchacz: anyway, I will hack dtd for html4 locally and I will pretend closure html can do html5. it is good enough for me
2014-05-17T13:37:26Z stassats: "104 lambdas converted" suggest that there's compilation involved
2014-05-17T13:37:39Z stassats: get rid of that
2014-05-17T13:37:56Z Shinmera: stassats: that's in chtml tho
2014-05-17T13:38:18Z stassats: indeed
2014-05-17T13:40:05Z nyef has a sudden thought of using a regexp to convert literal unicode lambda characters to escaped HTML entities.
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2014-05-17T13:50:41Z stassats: i don't quite understand how x86 deallocates the alien stack
2014-05-17T13:55:05Z stassats: ok, x86 just does (let ((sb!vm::*alien-stack-pointer* sb!vm::*alien-stack-pointer*)) ...)
2014-05-17T13:56:29Z nyef: stassats: Wrong channel? (-:
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2014-05-17T13:57:11Z stassats: nyef: yep, your last message misdirected me
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2014-05-17T14:05:34Z kosc: Is there any analog of nconc, wich gets chanchable value last, not first?
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2014-05-17T14:07:18Z kosc: (setf (append *changable-list* *appended-list*) *changable-list*) does what i means, but it's too long code.
2014-05-17T14:07:18Z ggole: No, you don't need destructive operations to cons onto a list.
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2014-05-17T14:08:14Z kosc: ggole: So, I should use (setf (append ...) ...)?
2014-05-17T14:08:48Z stassats: alexandria:appendf
2014-05-17T14:09:00Z ggole: Yes, although you could use a setf macro
2014-05-17T14:09:02Z ggole: ^
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2014-05-17T14:43:08Z puchacz: guys, chtml for the win
2014-05-17T14:44:02Z puchacz: when I do some dom processing (removing scripts, changing forms to divs and changing links) - chtml based lists processing is about 3 times faster than native objects in libxml2
2014-05-17T14:44:38Z puchacz: and I know what is happening inside unlike in blackboxy libxml2
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2014-05-17T15:52:04Z nightshade427_: puchacz I use cxml (slightly modified) to parse all website I have tested including these two which have horrible html issues , amazon, sonosite, and they parse 1:1 missing nothing
2014-05-17T15:52:37Z nightshade427_: apple parses fine etc
2014-05-17T15:52:38Z puchacz: nightshade427_: thanks, great news. do you represent data as lhtml?
2014-05-17T15:52:48Z nightshade427_: as Dom
2014-05-17T15:52:58Z puchacz: faster or more convenient?
2014-05-17T15:52:58Z nightshade427_: so I can manipulate fully
2014-05-17T15:53:16Z nightshade427_: more convenient
2014-05-17T15:53:21Z puchacz: I think I like lhtml
2014-05-17T15:53:28Z puchacz: after few hours of coding today
2014-05-17T15:53:32Z puchacz: coding/experimenting
2014-05-17T15:53:40Z nightshade427_: but again our speed is way fast enough for our needs
2014-05-17T15:54:19Z nightshade427_: so Dom works great for us
2014-05-17T15:55:08Z puchacz: unless there is a big trap lurking ahead, I will stick with lhtml. it can be serialised to string and read back for example
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2014-05-17T15:55:23Z nightshade427_: so can Dom
2014-05-17T15:55:57Z puchacz: btw, how do you call cxml to make it parse html?
2014-05-17T15:56:01Z puchacz: html != xml
2014-05-17T15:56:08Z nightshade427_: that's what were do, take string of html, parse it, alter it(translate), and write back out
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2014-05-17T15:56:28Z nightshade427_: same call
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2014-05-17T15:57:21Z puchacz: (cxml:parse "<article><p>x</p><br>" nil) ---> error
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2014-05-17T15:58:07Z stassats: you need closure-html
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2014-05-17T15:58:49Z puchacz: stassats: yeah, that's what I use today. but now as nightshade427_ came over, he says they use cxml, so I wanted to try it while I am on early stage
2014-05-17T15:59:06Z stassats: then you are already using cxml
2014-05-17T15:59:20Z puchacz: ah, it is using it internally, right?
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2014-05-17T15:59:59Z nightshade427_: chtml ses its own parser
2014-05-17T16:00:02Z nightshade427_: uses
2014-05-17T16:00:34Z nightshade427_: which is why I switched to cxml
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2014-05-17T16:00:46Z nightshade427_: cxml parser is better for us
2014-05-17T16:01:00Z stassats: puchacz: are some other way around, but to parse html with cxml, you need closure-html
2014-05-17T16:01:02Z puchacz: so how do you call it - see my example above which gives error
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2014-05-17T16:03:16Z stassats: and i use cxml-stp as the output
2014-05-17T16:03:50Z puchacz: nightshade427_: is this what you meant? what stassats does?
2014-05-17T16:04:02Z stassats: (chtml:parse "<article><p>x</p><br>" (cxml-dom:make-dom-builder))
2014-05-17T16:04:13Z puchacz: and you are losing :article
2014-05-17T16:04:18Z puchacz: because it is html5
2014-05-17T16:04:37Z puchacz: (I am trying to hack it now)
2014-05-17T16:05:20Z stassats: and with cxml-stp it's (chtml:parse "<article><p>x</p><br>" (cxml-stp:make-builder))
2014-05-17T16:05:30Z puchacz: (I am trying to hack it now)
2014-05-17T16:05:47Z puchacz: sorry for double post
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2014-05-17T16:07:40Z stassats: stp is like dom, but,
2014-05-17T16:07:42Z stassats: better
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2014-05-17T16:08:19Z puchacz: ok, but by using lhtml I will not shoot myself into foot, will I?
2014-05-17T16:08:25Z nightshade427_: puchacz hoping on laptop
2014-05-17T16:08:32Z nightshade427_: will give sample
2014-05-17T16:08:40Z puchacz: great, thx
2014-05-17T16:09:04Z stassats: puchacz: lists do not have much of a structure
2014-05-17T16:09:26Z puchacz: destructuring-bind + (cons tag-name (cons attributes body))
2014-05-17T16:10:00Z puchacz: analyser + constructor
2014-05-17T16:10:04Z stassats: if you're into that sort of thing
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2014-05-17T16:10:17Z stassats: like parsing things twice
2014-05-17T16:10:19Z nightshade427_: CL-USER> (dom:map-document (cxml:make-string-sink :omit-xml-declaration-p t)
2014-05-17T16:10:20Z nightshade427_: 		        (cxml:parse "<article><p>x</p><br>" (cxml-dom:make-dom-builder))
2014-05-17T16:10:20Z nightshade427_: 			:include-doctype :canonical-notations)
2014-05-17T16:10:21Z nightshade427_: "<article><p>x</p><br/></article>"
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2014-05-17T16:10:41Z nightshade427_: :)
2014-05-17T16:10:46Z puchacz: let me try :-)
2014-05-17T16:11:06Z nightshade427_: remember we built on top of cxml, so it is slightly altered experience
2014-05-17T16:11:12Z stassats: puchacz: didn't you try that already?
2014-05-17T16:11:56Z nightshade427_: as mentioned above use cxml (slightly altered)
2014-05-17T16:12:13Z puchacz: ah, so indeed (cxml:parse "<article><p>x</p><br>" --> will give me error
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2014-05-17T16:12:20Z nightshade427_: we added a few config parameters to turn of some of its over eager validation rules
2014-05-17T16:13:07Z puchacz: the code is not public I take?
2014-05-17T16:13:11Z nightshade427_: if we stick with this path we will open it back up to cxml, right now its still in development, and we may not stick with it
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2014-05-17T16:13:31Z nightshade427_: cxml that is
2014-05-17T16:13:39Z nightshade427_: but for now it sure seems to work great
2014-05-17T16:14:07Z nightshade427_: its easy to tweak, just make sure you stick with its llgpl license
2014-05-17T16:14:20Z puchacz: ok, thx
2014-05-17T16:14:48Z nightshade427_: i can give hints if you need help tweaking to meet needs
2014-05-17T16:15:17Z puchacz: thx, I will see first if hacking dtd for html4 works
2014-05-17T16:15:25Z nightshade427_: we will be releasing the code open source anyways if we stick with cxml
2014-05-17T16:15:44Z nightshade427_: right now, we completly ignore dtd, and use the html as given
2014-05-17T16:15:57Z nightshade427_: but we keep dtd so we can re-write it back out
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2014-05-17T16:19:37Z nightshade427_: CL-USER> (html:html-string (html:parse-html "<!DOCTYPE html><html xmlns=\"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml\" xml:lang=\"en-US\" lang=\"en-US\"><head></head><body><anything>test</anything></body>"))
2014-05-17T16:19:38Z nightshade427_: "<!DOCTYPE html>
2014-05-17T16:19:38Z nightshade427_: <html xmlns=\"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml\" xml:lang=\"en-US\" lang=\"en-US\"><head></head><body><anything>test</anything></body></html>"
2014-05-17T16:20:35Z nightshade427_: and as you can see it parses the document into a proper cxml doc
2014-05-17T16:20:37Z nightshade427_: CL-USER> (html:parse-html "<!DOCTYPE html><html xmlns=\"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml\" xml:lang=\"en-US\" lang=\"en-US\"><head></head><body><anything>test</anything></body>")
2014-05-17T16:20:38Z nightshade427_: #<RUNE-DOM::DOCUMENT {100390CC23}>
2014-05-17T16:20:50Z stassats: don't bloody paste here!
2014-05-17T16:21:07Z nightshade427_: so I have the full cxml api to use, and with bad html, html5, anything really
2014-05-17T16:21:19Z nightshade427_: sorry I figured they were small so would be fine as others have done above
2014-05-17T16:21:36Z stassats: more than one line => don't paste
2014-05-17T16:21:53Z nightshade427_: one line is code, the other is result ;)
2014-05-17T16:21:56Z nightshade427_: but ok
2014-05-17T16:21:58Z nightshade427_: :)
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2014-05-17T16:22:08Z puchacz: we can go priv :-)
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2014-05-17T16:22:40Z nightshade427_: thanks stassats, we'll just PM
2014-05-17T16:22:59Z pjb`: -
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2014-05-17T16:30:02Z Posterdati: pjb`: hi
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2014-05-17T16:47:21Z Mueble: can I ask noob questions here?
2014-05-17T16:47:53Z stassats: yes
2014-05-17T16:47:59Z Mueble: cool
2014-05-17T16:48:45Z Mueble: who can I run a lisp source file in a different buffer than the one I'm editing?
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2014-05-17T16:49:20Z stassats: you want two buffers?
2014-05-17T16:49:21Z Mueble: I have installed SLIME but I don't know how to use it correctly.
2014-05-17T16:49:34Z stassats: minion: please tell Mueble about slime.mov
2014-05-17T16:49:35Z minion: Mueble: please look at slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov
2014-05-17T16:49:43Z Mueble: I assumed It was the standard way to do it. It's not?
2014-05-17T16:49:51Z Mueble: thanks.
2014-05-17T16:50:14Z beach: Mueble: What does it mean to "run a lisp source file"?
2014-05-17T16:50:15Z Mueble: I hope it's not the same as the youtube one
2014-05-17T16:50:26Z Mueble: to write all my code
2014-05-17T16:50:34Z Mueble: and then run it all at once
2014-05-17T16:50:43Z Mueble: not with the interpreter line by line
2014-05-17T16:50:53Z beach: Oh, I see.
2014-05-17T16:50:55Z stassats: C-c C-k binding
2014-05-17T16:51:11Z Mueble: I'm super noob by the way , just learning to program in lisp.
2014-05-17T16:51:34Z Mueble: and this command makes use of SLIME?
2014-05-17T16:52:01Z beach: Yes.
2014-05-17T16:52:19Z Mueble: ok I see. do you guys use just one buffer when coding in lisp?
2014-05-17T16:52:32Z beach: No.
2014-05-17T16:52:35Z stassats: about a gazillion
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2014-05-17T16:53:29Z beach: Mueble: I split my screen into two using C-x 3.  Then I have the REPL on the right and I edit buffers on the left.  I switch between the buffers with C-x b.
2014-05-17T16:53:47Z Mueble: that's what I want to do too.
2014-05-17T16:53:49Z samebchase: Mueble: You also define new functions in the buffer, C-c C-c them, and then C-c C-z to switch to the SLIME REPL.
2014-05-17T16:53:59Z samebchase: s/also/can/
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2014-05-17T16:54:39Z Mueble: can I find all this info in the video you sent me?
2014-05-17T16:54:58Z beach: Mueble: You can read the SLIME manual.
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2014-05-17T16:55:14Z Mueble: I'm reading it too.
2014-05-17T16:55:14Z stassats: which isn't a great read
2014-05-17T16:55:31Z Mueble: ahaah
2014-05-17T16:55:32Z Mueble: yeah
2014-05-17T16:55:47Z Mueble: that is why I'm asking here
2014-05-17T16:55:51Z samebchase: Mueble: the advice given here is more than enough to start writing code
2014-05-17T16:56:25Z samebchase: you need to know about 5 SLIME keybindings, and that's about it
2014-05-17T16:56:41Z samebchase: (for starters)
2014-05-17T16:57:04Z Mueble: do you also use the lisp mode I assume?
2014-05-17T16:57:17Z Mueble: for moving through expressions and so
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2014-05-17T17:01:40Z samebchase: some people seem to like paredit, but haven't tried it yet myself.
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2014-05-17T20:50:35Z CrazyWoods: Hey
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2014-05-17T20:56:09Z CrazyWoods: Are there someone here ever using fltk using lisp?
2014-05-17T20:57:16Z ehu wonders who copied the entire content of the machine hosting cliki.net onto common-lisp.net
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2014-05-17T22:13:53Z _death: how about putting out a new version bordeaux-threads?.. the last release is from 2013 and doesn't have timeout arg for condition-wait
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2014-05-17T22:29:15Z JuanDaugherty: so add one
2014-05-17T22:29:26Z JuanDaugherty: it's called open source for a reason
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2014-05-17T22:31:54Z _death: JuanDaugherty: it's already implemented..
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2014-05-17T22:32:35Z JuanDaugherty: _death, so what's the beef?
2014-05-17T22:33:44Z _death: JuanDaugherty: it's just a nudge to the maintainer to increment the version and claim a new release, so it can be put on quicklisp..
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2014-05-17T22:33:56Z JuanDaugherty: ah
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2014-05-17T23:54:03Z ryuo: I have used C for years, and always found lisp syntax to be bizarre. Nowadays I find myself wanting to learn another language, but there doesn't seem to be an easy answer. Most recently I have tried to learn a bit of X86 Assembly language, and some tinkering with python. But I only feel like ASM is teaching me anything at this point. Is there something special about lisp in general that would benefit me?
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2014-05-17T23:54:51Z nightfly: you get over the syntax pretty quickly if you actually try and learn a lisp
2014-05-17T23:55:21Z ryuo: nightfly: Then what is the programming paradigm of lisp? I've mainly used procedural and some limited OOP as they call it.
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2014-05-17T23:55:46Z stassats: it's "whichever paradigm you fancy"
2014-05-17T23:55:50Z reb: http://random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html
2014-05-17T23:55:55Z ryuo: So multi-paradigm?
2014-05-17T23:57:30Z ryuo: What makes lisp macros special? I've read it can be used to modify the program's runtime code. But where is that useful?
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2014-05-17T23:58:16Z ryuo: I've never written a self-modifying program...
2014-05-17T23:58:34Z stassats: you never used cpp macros in C?
2014-05-17T23:58:35Z p_l|backup: it's not about self-modifying programs
2014-05-17T23:58:53Z ryuo: stassats: that's still compile time.
2014-05-17T23:59:00Z stassats: so are macros
2014-05-17T23:59:02Z p_l|backup: it's about having a way to use functions to manipulate functions at compilation time, so you can write functions that write the boilerplate for you
2014-05-17T23:59:02Z nyef: Macros are to functions/procedures what functions/procedures are to straight-line code.
2014-05-17T23:59:11Z ryuo: So it's used to generate code?
2014-05-17T23:59:16Z p_l|backup: ryuo: yes
2014-05-17T23:59:17Z stassats: and the question "why should i learn lisp" gotta be the most boring question
2014-05-17T23:59:42Z ryuo: stassats: sorry. I just see many languages and wonder why this over another.
2014-05-17T23:59:47Z nyef: The question isn't "why", it's "why not?"
2014-05-18T00:00:07Z ryuo: I originally learned C for maximum interopability with many libraries.
2014-05-18T00:00:26Z ryuo: err ability to use C libraries.
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2014-05-18T00:01:41Z nyef: I originally learned C because it was the most accessible way to write a MUD in Linux, especially as compared with Turbo Pascal, which was my previous go-to language at the time.
2014-05-18T00:02:02Z nyef: Lisp came far, far later. (-:
2014-05-18T00:02:41Z ryuo: I'll be honest. C-like languages seem so... dull...
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2014-05-18T00:03:03Z ryuo: Useful to know, yes, but...
2014-05-18T00:03:08Z ryuo: Ugh.
2014-05-18T00:03:14Z ryuo: I want something new and interesting. rofl
2014-05-18T00:03:29Z stassats: ARM assembly
2014-05-18T00:03:38Z ryuo: Tilt. Overload.
2014-05-18T00:03:39Z ryuo: lol
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2014-05-18T00:03:55Z nyef: If you think that C-like languages are dull, you haven't stretched them until they were about to snap, twisted them into a pretzel, and then lied outright to the compiler yet.
2014-05-18T00:03:57Z stassats: it has some unique features
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2014-05-18T00:05:09Z nyef: (I've had .c / .h pairs where the .c provided implementation and the .h interface, but the .c couldn't include the .h because then the compiler would realize that I was doing something less than within the rules.)
2014-05-18T00:05:42Z nyef: Something about having the .h declare some identifier to be a function, and the .c declaring it as an instance of a struct...
2014-05-18T00:05:48Z ryuo: nyef: Well, I mainly want to learn a new language that actually challenges my ability to learn something outside of my programming comfort zone.
2014-05-18T00:06:06Z ryuo: I was reading this:
2014-05-18T00:06:08Z ryuo: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
2014-05-18T00:06:27Z nyef: Fine. A short-list? Forth, Intercal, Befunge, APL, Smalltalk, and... Umm...
2014-05-18T00:06:35Z phl-: Java
2014-05-18T00:06:41Z ryuo: Java... Bleh.
2014-05-18T00:06:50Z ryuo: Familiar syntax. But hate the stupid thing.
2014-05-18T00:06:51Z nyef: Oh! Haskell, Erlang, and SML/NJ.
2014-05-18T00:06:54Z phl-: feel the powah
2014-05-18T00:07:17Z nyef: If you've been reading paul graham, have you read "Taste for the Web" and "Dabblers and Blowhards"?
2014-05-18T00:07:17Z stassats: VHDL
2014-05-18T00:07:30Z j_king: stassats: <3
2014-05-18T00:07:40Z ryuo: nyef: No...
2014-05-18T00:07:42Z stassats: and/or Verilog
2014-05-18T00:08:00Z nyef: Prolog could be good.
2014-05-18T00:08:01Z ryuo: nyef: I only recently read this.
2014-05-18T00:08:13Z ryuo: It got me thinking that I need to expand more.
2014-05-18T00:08:47Z ryuo: And i'm tired of being discouraged because it's not popular...
2014-05-18T00:08:57Z ryuo: I only need to know so many popular languages.
2014-05-18T00:09:38Z j_king: most popular languages/tech are just leading developers off of a bridge. it's ok to go against the flow.
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2014-05-18T00:09:54Z Bike: try learning some computability theory. kleene changes ur perception of shit
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2014-05-18T00:10:03Z nyef: Let's see... mind-expanding unpopular languages... How about RPG-IV and object-oriented COBOL?
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2014-05-18T00:10:19Z ryuo: COBOL? O_o
2014-05-18T00:10:23Z nyef: (Report Program Generator is actually kindof fun, in a twisted, WTF, kind of way.)
2014-05-18T00:10:26Z ryuo: I've heard of it but...
2014-05-18T00:10:42Z ryuo: It's mainly used for legacy programs I've read.
2014-05-18T00:11:05Z nyef: Do you know what a "legacy" program is? It's one where there's actually code that's been written.
2014-05-18T00:11:36Z Bike: heh.
2014-05-18T00:11:46Z ryuo: nyef: Usually it seemed to also mean "very old". Do you mean it also applies to more recent programs?
2014-05-18T00:12:15Z nyef: It applies to what you were working on yesterday.
2014-05-18T00:12:20Z ryuo: Huh.
2014-05-18T00:12:28Z ryuo: So anything from the past no matter how long ago?
2014-05-18T00:12:28Z nyef: Whatever that might be, it is now "legacy".
2014-05-18T00:13:27Z nyef: (Another definition of "legacy" is "code with insufficient or no automated test coverage", which is a position that I'm starting to agree with.)
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2014-05-18T00:14:08Z ryuo: "exact arithmetic" is described in the CL features I was given...
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2014-05-18T00:14:26Z ryuo: Is it arbitrary precision or does it have numerical limits like C primitive types?
2014-05-18T00:15:37Z nyef: Floats have defined limits, ratios and integers aren't supposed to, but have a look for the story of "most-positive-bignum".
2014-05-18T00:16:39Z Bike: the limits of lisp implementations are much higher than those of C implementations, ofc.
2014-05-18T00:16:58Z p_l|backup: ryuo: legacy = everything that is already there and you need to denigrate to prop your own proposal
2014-05-18T00:17:02Z Bike: on the other hand, i imagine doing schoolboy multiplication on anything near as large as most-positive-bignum would be far too long
2014-05-18T00:17:14Z ryuo: p_l|backup: so it's a flexible buzzword?
2014-05-18T00:17:19Z p_l|backup: ryuo: most of the time
2014-05-18T00:17:39Z p_l|backup: nyef: n.b., http://urbit.org/ - I was left with look of pure WTF after reading some of it
2014-05-18T00:18:08Z p_l|backup: nyef: to be specific, this: http://urbit.org/doc/hoon/tut/7/
2014-05-18T00:18:14Z j_king: p_l|backup: I have a couple of destroyers. :)
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2014-05-18T00:18:32Z j_king: though if anything I hack on, it's the C runtime that enables most of it.
2014-05-18T00:18:39Z p_l|backup: heh
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2014-05-18T00:18:51Z j_king: noon is a funny beast.
2014-05-18T00:18:56Z j_king: s/noon/hoon/
2014-05-18T00:19:02Z ryuo: nyef: one of graham's points in that article seemed to be that ideally the language should fit the task.
2014-05-18T00:19:11Z stassats: destroyer ships?
2014-05-18T00:19:39Z p_l|backup: ryuo: and that's true. Which is IMO why you should learn actually different languages
2014-05-18T00:19:42Z j_king: stassats: yeah... they use naval terms to describe the crypto namespace
2014-05-18T00:19:47Z Bike: don't take everything graham says too seriously, there are other things to read
2014-05-18T00:19:56Z ryuo: Hm.
2014-05-18T00:20:06Z Bike: not that learning languages is a bad idea
2014-05-18T00:20:10Z p_l|backup: ryuo: or even if the language isn't in different paradigm, the runtime might be quite illuminating
2014-05-18T00:20:48Z ryuo: Yea, I wouldn't feel comfortable with functional at this point... It's not used often for what I normally write.
2014-05-18T00:21:02Z p_l|backup: ryuo: well, CL doesn't enforce functional in all places
2014-05-18T00:21:10Z ryuo: I've read a lot of high praise for lisp in general...
2014-05-18T00:21:12Z p_l|backup: mostly-functional is just how it tends to become
2014-05-18T00:21:28Z ryuo: But I always thought it bizarre that it's not widely popular.
2014-05-18T00:21:53Z ryuo: What makes it so great that many implementations exist but I see few programs written in it?
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2014-05-18T00:22:11Z ryuo: Perhaps I am simply looking in the wrong place.
2014-05-18T00:22:21Z ryuo: But I see a C dominated world.
2014-05-18T00:22:28Z stassats: writing implementations is fun
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2014-05-18T00:22:48Z msmith: hi all. hate to interrupt, but anyone ever have trouble handling a simple-error?  I've tried to handle it with cl-user::simple-error, common-lisp::simple error.
2014-05-18T00:22:49Z nyef: p_l|backup: That (urbit/hoon) looks like a truly frightening waste of time.
2014-05-18T00:23:15Z stassats: msmith: that's not how to describe a problem
2014-05-18T00:23:21Z Bike: urbit/hoon is also written by a crazy person, so things happen
2014-05-18T00:23:22Z stassats: and you have several layers of confusion
2014-05-18T00:23:36Z msmith: stassats:: no just one
2014-05-18T00:24:06Z nyef: Just one layer, but it's really thick?
2014-05-18T00:24:17Z Bike: msmith: anyway, be more descriptive, please.
2014-05-18T00:24:26Z msmith: so, I have a handler-bind in which I trap/handler several errors, but can't catch a SIMPLE-ERROR for some reason
2014-05-18T00:24:36Z ryuo: nyef: What did you feel was the benefits to learning lisp?
2014-05-18T00:25:02Z msmith: s/handler/handle
2014-05-18T00:25:06Z stassats: i saw the benefits after i learned it
2014-05-18T00:25:13Z nyef: ryuo: It was a good fit to the problem domain that I was working in at the time, having failed twice to write a program in C to do what I wanted.
2014-05-18T00:25:22Z Bike: you really don't need to put too much thought into why you learn a language
2014-05-18T00:25:23Z ryuo: I learned a lot of low level details from using C. I used to think object allocation was "magic". lol
2014-05-18T00:25:34Z Bike: i have a snobol manual lying around just because i thought it was interesting
2014-05-18T00:25:39Z Bike: it's not even a huge time investment, just do it
2014-05-18T00:26:05Z Bike: ryuo: TAOCP has a pretty fun introduction to malloc implementation
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2014-05-18T00:27:46Z msmith: stassats:  The error I'm trying to handle comes from trying to vector-pop an empty array
2014-05-18T00:27:49Z ryuo: Okay so. I've found two books for common lisp that seem to be recommended by different sources. Graham recommended one version but others have said "practical common lisp".
2014-05-18T00:27:58Z Bike: yeah, pcl is good.
2014-05-18T00:28:15Z stassats: msmith: you should be doing that, too
2014-05-18T00:28:46Z ryuo: Bike: is the reason ()s are used so much is because lisp was originally designed for list processing?
2014-05-18T00:29:00Z Bike: probably
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2014-05-18T00:29:39Z nyef: minion: Graham crackers?
2014-05-18T00:29:39Z minion: Graham crackers: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html
2014-05-18T00:30:04Z stassats: msmith: should as in shouldn't
2014-05-18T00:30:32Z msmith: doing what?  reading common lisp books.  I've done that.  sometimes you come across seemingly simple problems and get get past them.  then you have to suck up your pride and ask someone about it
2014-05-18T00:30:51Z msmith: s/to/get
2014-05-18T00:31:10Z stassats: no, you shouldn't use error handling to catch running vector-pop on empty arrays
2014-05-18T00:31:38Z stassats: but, you are so secretive about your problem
2014-05-18T00:31:56Z msmith: stassats: not trying to be
2014-05-18T00:31:59Z msmith: one sec
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2014-05-18T00:32:54Z Bike: yeah, you can just do (if (zerop (length array)) (dont-do-that) (vector-pop ...)), see
2014-05-18T00:33:11Z nyef: If you want to handle SIMPLE-ERROR you are either: Marshalling the error to another format, such as output on an RPC channel or similar; or Doing Something Wrong. This isn't a hard-and-fast rule, but it's a good rule of thumb.
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2014-05-18T00:36:55Z msmith: Bike: zerop will work. thanks
2014-05-18T00:37:47Z stassats: (array-in-bounds-p array 0)
2014-05-18T00:38:19Z nyef: How about PLUSP?
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2014-05-18T00:40:20Z msmith: stassats: that will work too.
2014-05-18T00:41:19Z stassats: and as to confusions: you showed you tried cl-user::simple-error, you're never to use the cl-user package in programs
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2014-05-18T00:41:45Z stassats: you also said cl::simple-error, simple-error is an exported symbol, it's cl:simple-error, or usually just simple-error
2014-05-18T00:42:01Z msmith: but on another note, I'd just like to share my joy in finally grasping lisp's condition system.  I thought I understood it, but had a moment of enlightenment today
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2014-05-18T00:42:11Z stassats: and third, you probably didn't perform a non-local exit in your handler-bind, otherwise the error will reach the debugger
2014-05-18T00:42:19Z msmith: stassats:  I actually tried cl--user::simple-error
2014-05-18T00:43:22Z msmith: I'm going to try different combinations of things when I'm trying to solve a problem.
2014-05-18T00:43:33Z stassats: you can forget about the cl-user package, it's not for you, it's for the user
2014-05-18T00:44:20Z msmith: I don't use cl-user normally but I was just trying to see what would work/happen
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2014-05-18T01:18:02Z msmith: stassats: another question for you if you don't mind.  http://paste.lisp.org/display/142598
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2014-05-18T01:19:06Z msmith: stassats:  I'm thinking I have to somehow declare the array as adjustable.  haven't seen how to do that yet
2014-05-18T01:19:23Z nyef: That looks familiar, somehow.
2014-05-18T01:19:27Z stassats: (array-in-bounds-p stack 0 0) declares the array as two dimensional
2014-05-18T01:19:40Z stassats: and, you used it wrong anyway
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2014-05-18T01:22:37Z msmith: nyef: STAY OFF MY SERVER! :)
2014-05-18T01:23:10Z nyef: Since when did you run either paste.lisp.org or launchpad?
2014-05-18T01:23:21Z msmith: stassats: what do you mean used it wrong
2014-05-18T01:23:34Z msmith: ?
2014-05-18T01:23:35Z stassats: clhs array-in-bounds-p
2014-05-18T01:23:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ar_in_.htm
2014-05-18T01:23:37Z stassats: take a read
2014-05-18T01:23:46Z nyef: Shouldn't you be passing an INDEX to ARRAY-IN-BOUNDS-P?
2014-05-18T01:24:35Z nyef: Hrm. I guess 0 IS an index...
2014-05-18T01:24:40Z stassats: "If array is a vector with a fill pointer, that fill pointer is ignored."
2014-05-18T01:24:48Z nyef: Heh! Niice.
2014-05-18T01:25:01Z stassats: and, the leg IF legs are wrong
2014-05-18T01:25:06Z stassats: basically, everything is wrong
2014-05-18T01:25:23Z nyef: The type declaration is useless as well
2014-05-18T01:25:53Z nyef: The use of CW seems pointless...
2014-05-18T01:25:57Z stassats: and parenthesis around array are superfluous too
2014-05-18T01:26:08Z nyef: Meh, that's hardly at issue.
2014-05-18T01:27:33Z stassats: and wouldn't i from 0 to count pop count+1 args?
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2014-05-18T01:28:00Z stassats: that's hard to read, and wouldn't "i from 0 to count" pop count+1 args?
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2014-05-18T01:30:34Z stassats: and you should not be checking for an empty array, but an array with COUNT elements
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2014-05-18T01:32:30Z msmith: or I could just check the length which is what I should have done in the first place
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2014-05-18T01:33:44Z msmith: and what do you mean the if legs are wrong?
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2014-05-18T01:35:43Z msmith: they weren't indented in example but I don't see anything wrong with them
2014-05-18T01:36:06Z nyef: Backwards.
2014-05-18T01:38:57Z msmith: stassats: and no, the loop does just what it is supposed to do, as it has for two years.  the only thing "wrong" about it was trying to use array-in-bounds when I didn't need to.  which gave rise to the use of the declaration  because I was getting the type conflict error. and that was an attempt to see if that would fix it.  but no matter, it works now.  thanks
2014-05-18T01:39:28Z stassats: so, it pops count+1?
2014-05-18T01:40:11Z stassats: (loop for i from 0 to 10 count i) => 11
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2014-05-18T01:50:29Z zRecursive: The ECL built stumpwm still cannot run !  I am curious what is the best way to find the reason ?   The stumpwm image quits automatically once started.
2014-05-18T01:50:50Z stassats: the best way is called "debugging"
2014-05-18T01:51:03Z zRecursive: how ?
2014-05-18T01:51:24Z stassats: don't the teach that in elementary schools nowadays?
2014-05-18T01:52:30Z zRecursive: The imgage quits automatically once started. I even cannot use slime to connect ...
2014-05-18T01:53:09Z zRecursive maybe from source
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2014-05-18T02:13:42Z pjb`: nyef: have a look at  http://www.kamremake.com/devblog/pascal-the-best-of-both-worlds/
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2014-05-18T02:16:51Z nyef: Heh. "Made popular by Delphi"? Yeah, right. Delphi was Turbo Pascal for Windows on steroids, which was Turbo Pascal 7 amped up, which was... Turbo Pascal was the compiler that really kicked it off back in the early PC days, and that'd've been the '80s.
2014-05-18T02:17:21Z nyef: And Turbo Pascal had objects at least as far back as TP6, and probably earlier.
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2014-05-18T02:50:56Z ahungry: hey guys, (ql:quickload :iolib) fails, g++ cannot find an lfp.h include file
2014-05-18T02:51:09Z stassats: install libfixposix
2014-05-18T02:51:51Z ahungry: ah, dang abreviations, thanks stassats :)
2014-05-18T02:52:11Z stassats: minion: what does LFP stand for?
2014-05-18T02:52:11Z minion: Liquefier Flour Primrosed
2014-05-18T02:53:08Z ahungry: haha
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2014-05-18T03:29:30Z names: sigjuice sshirokov ircbrowse foom nightshade427_ oconnore |3b| ktx PuercoPop loke__ reb dim nop0x07bc Patzy teiresias bocaneri yrk nialo` pliniker wchun findiggle hugod [SLB] froggey mindCrime gingerale joast ampharmex bege GGMethos The_third_man marsbot hzp Nshag s_e cmbntr johanbev asedeno aerique diginet j_king z0d killmaster cmatei segv- freiksenet farhaven_ njsg junkris_ solidus__ rtoym kanru MightyJoe qiemem rvirding _tca doomlord_ loke billstclair
2014-05-18T03:29:30Z names: anunnaki mikaelj jasom seangrove ggherdov Amaan d4gg4d___ wilfredh gluegadget aksatac superjudge endou_ gz_ TDog zxq9 FractalFive srcerer drewc mathrick stokachu ZombieChicken notori0us mal_ cyphase karswell pjb shifty sirdancealot matko housel nydel tali713 ahungry Gooder cross hugoduncan specbot minion alchemis7 Vivitron j0ni hypno_ Natch optikalmouse yrdz Mandus CrazyEddy LostDatagram Kruppe TristamWrk Intensity vpm schoppenhauer echo[1] acieroid dRbiG
2014-05-18T03:29:30Z names: devon Tenkujin deego effy scharan theBlackDragon axion brandonz Kabaka daimrod bjorkintosh clop Krystof cods ecraven tuturto kyl samebchase yroeht2 arbscht heddwch galdor honkfestival aoh jsnell_ johs justinmcp_ Colleen phl- Tristam yauz ft ineiros redline6561 Fade vert2_ nicdev ozzloy nightfly JPeterson vhost- Tordek emma eigenlicht TheMoonMaster Zhivago rk[1] SHODAN fnordbert Munksgaard drdo benny Blkt fe[nl]ix htmzr dfox Guest43245 cpt_nemo White_Flame
2014-05-18T03:29:30Z names: keen__ jackdaniel jayne sjl Zag ec clog madnificent AntiSpamMeta vim_shim finnrobi uzo ``Erik fmu sellout felideon jtz akshatj _death whartung funnel ferada eMBee eli tessier H4ns enn pok kbtr_ palter victor_lowther splittist mathrick_ Neptu SAUERKRAUSE gensym epsylon rootzlevel joga ered otwieracz flip214 yano Borbus leoc ski dsp_ ck_ nimiux mksan pchrist lupine xristos sgray10 eagleflo peccu3 brucem Mathieu sbryant ConstantineXVI abbe K1rk p_l|backup
2014-05-18T03:29:30Z names: sklr wormphle1m Anarch codeburg tkd eak nitro_idiot Ober mood mtd Posterdati smull antoszka Adeon nisstyre felipe lemoinem les ramus musicalchair yeltzooo misv naryl Oddity gf3 sytse milosn spacebat zbigniew Subfusc Xach rotty_ pillton zz_karupa InvalidCo
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2014-05-18T03:36:43Z mikey85: message me if you want to join my channel. IT is for Christians, new Christians, and people interested In learning about Jesus
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2014-05-18T03:37:38Z stassats: can Jesus read ccl disassemble?
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2014-05-18T03:40:30Z pjb: stassats: yes, He can.
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2014-05-18T03:47:37Z leo2007: pjb: what's ccl's assemble syntax? it uses sexps. Is it an intermediate format that will be compiled down to real assembly?
2014-05-18T03:48:04Z pjb: leo2007:  syntax doesn't matter. use pattern matching.
2014-05-18T03:48:13Z pjb: No, it's real assembler.
2014-05-18T03:48:21Z stassats: what is real assembly?
2014-05-18T03:48:33Z pjb: by definition assembler is when you have a bijection between source instruction and machine instruction.
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2014-05-18T03:48:56Z pjb: (not to be confused with macro-assembler, where you don't have this bijection anymore in general).
2014-05-18T03:48:59Z pjb: C is a macro assembler.
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2014-05-18T03:57:44Z leo2007: pjb: the syntax looks like a variation of AT&T assembly syntax
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2014-05-18T04:03:16Z pjb: I knew you were smart enough!
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2014-05-18T04:04:42Z leo2007: by checking the output from disassemble we can see if TCO is performed.
2014-05-18T04:05:21Z sz0 is now known as sz0`
2014-05-18T04:05:49Z stassats: is it a jump? is it a call? a 3-year old can do that!
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2014-05-18T04:18:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-05-18T04:19:44Z drewc: that means it is night time here, which means I should stop coding, have a Guinness, and start thinking about coding.
2014-05-18T04:20:09Z beach: Sounds right.
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2014-05-18T04:23:34Z drewc: beach: and now that I have stopped coding, I remembered ... Good morning to you as well!
2014-05-18T04:24:21Z drewc even read a post on c.l.l before he recalled why he was not at the REPL.
2014-05-18T04:25:35Z beach: OK, last chance to review my papers before I ship them to ILC: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf http://metamodular.com/sliding-gc.pdf http://metamodular.com/satiation.pdf
2014-05-18T04:25:58Z leo2007: In http://paste.lisp.org/display/142600, I can understand why no tco for YES but why can't the compiler do it like in YES2?
2014-05-18T04:26:12Z drewc reads the papers 
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2014-05-18T04:26:46Z drewc: This will be my first time at a lisp conference, so need to research things!
2014-05-18T04:26:52Z stassats: leo2007: you are confused
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2014-05-18T04:27:14Z leo2007: stassats: yes. could you explain?
2014-05-18T04:27:20Z Guest30604 is now known as Sheilong
2014-05-18T04:27:21Z stassats: yes2 doesn't do what you think it does
2014-05-18T04:27:32Z Sheilong is now known as sheilong
2014-05-18T04:27:32Z beach: drewc: If you have any remarks, you can send them to robert.strandh [at] gmail [dot] com.
2014-05-18T04:28:12Z drewc: beach: can/will do.
2014-05-18T04:28:18Z beach: Thanks!
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2014-05-18T04:30:42Z leo2007: stassats: thanks. yes2 unbinds x and jump.
2014-05-18T04:30:43Z stassats: leo2007: if you mean this particular code isn't optimized, then your compiler isn't smart enough
2014-05-18T04:30:52Z stassats: but it can't be done in general
2014-05-18T04:31:36Z leo2007: running YES in sbcl seems to hang it. I have to kill -9
2014-05-18T04:31:37Z leo2007: 1.1.18
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2014-05-18T04:32:09Z drewc looks at the paste ....
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2014-05-18T04:34:07Z stassats: leo2007: what are you trying to do?
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2014-05-18T04:35:30Z drewc sees YES as being infinite, and would TRACE it to see if it is hanging or doing what It was told to do (at the OPTIMIZE level perhaps? I do not know... and do not feel like hyperspec'ing)
2014-05-18T04:36:44Z leo2007: drewc: I use C-c C-c in slime to compiles it.
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2014-05-18T04:37:11Z leo2007: stassats: trying to understand tail-call elimination and limits.
2014-05-18T04:37:32Z stassats: just don't do anything after the call
2014-05-18T04:37:45Z stassats: or better, just don't rely on tail call elimination
2014-05-18T04:37:50Z stassats: it even looks ugly
2014-05-18T04:41:27Z drewc is not a SCHEMER, and actually likes LOOP for most iteration, and tries to avoid doing something that will not work for DEBUG optimization.
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2014-05-18T04:52:02Z leo2007: stassats: what looks ugly? recursion?
2014-05-18T04:52:14Z stassats: sure is
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2014-05-18T08:48:14Z H4ns: easye: ehu: is any of you writing a shell script to register new users?
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2014-05-18T10:55:32Z puchacz: hi, I want to use both libxml2 (for a while) and cxml-stp, when I (ql:quickload 'cxml-stp), it gives me error:
2014-05-18T10:55:40Z puchacz: XPATH is a nickname for the package LIBXML2.XPATH
2014-05-18T10:55:52Z puchacz: can I shadow libxml2.xpath somehow please?
2014-05-18T10:56:03Z puchacz: later I plan to drop libxml2 altogether
2014-05-18T10:56:14Z puchacz: but for now I can't even develop, as it refuses to load
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2014-05-18T11:14:18Z dim: clhs rename-package
2014-05-18T11:14:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rn_pkg.htm
2014-05-18T11:14:34Z dim: you can copy/edit the list of nicknames with renamle-package
2014-05-18T11:15:51Z Fare: beware that rename-package can lead to quite "interesting" effects with .fasl's
2014-05-18T11:16:18Z Fare: editing nicknames should be fine, though
2014-05-18T11:17:00Z Fare: the rule of thumb is: the main name used at the time the fasl is dumped should exist at the time it is loaded.
2014-05-18T11:17:18Z puchacz: thx
2014-05-18T11:17:35Z Fare: (but need not be the main name at the time it is loaded)
2014-05-18T11:17:42Z Fare: (usually)
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2014-05-18T11:18:27Z puchacz: I just removed temprorarily the nickname in sources :-)
2014-05-18T11:18:34Z puchacz: and then deleted all fasls
2014-05-18T11:19:42Z puchacz: btw, I opted for lhtml yesterday as a way of representing parse results. it bit me however, because there are no parents. is cxml-stp the format of choice for the enlightened then?
2014-05-18T11:20:01Z puchacz: no parents - I mean there is no pointer from child to parent
2014-05-18T11:20:10Z Fare: I know neither lhtml nor cxml-stp — what are they?
2014-05-18T11:20:29Z puchacz: way of storing parsed html when using closure html library
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2014-05-18T11:24:31Z francogrex: anything exciting?
2014-05-18T11:24:33Z Fare: why don't you "just" store the html and reparse it?
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2014-05-18T11:24:55Z Fare: francogrex, converting the shell scripts that build asdf to lisp
2014-05-18T11:25:05Z Fare: and having to beef up lisp-invocation.asd
2014-05-18T11:25:13Z puchacz: Fare: store temporarily I mean - for processing
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2014-05-18T12:11:19Z ltbarcly: so if I have a keyword parameter to a function, how do I declare the type?  since if the keyword isn't specified the value is NIL, this has caused me a bit of a pain
2014-05-18T12:11:45Z H4ns: ltbarcly: you can or (or null <the-type>) or specify a different default
2014-05-18T12:11:54Z H4ns: ltbarcly: (different from nil)
2014-05-18T12:12:08Z H4ns: s/can or/can use/
2014-05-18T12:12:16Z ltbarcly: H4ns: is there any benefit from defining the type as (or null <the-type>) rather than just not specifying it?
2014-05-18T12:12:33Z ltbarcly: other than type enforcement and correctness
2014-05-18T12:12:37Z H4ns: ltbarcly: type declarations are only a optimization device in common lisp.
2014-05-18T12:13:02Z H4ns: ltbarcly: if you want to actually make sure that a variable's value has a certain type, use check-type.
2014-05-18T12:13:28Z ltbarcly: but will a type which is basically (or empty-list simple-array) help the optimizer at all?
2014-05-18T12:13:54Z H4ns: ltbarcly: that cannot be answered in the general case.  don't put in type declarations if you don't know if they help :)
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2014-05-18T12:14:18Z ltbarcly: well there's the rub
2014-05-18T12:14:30Z H4ns: ltbarcly: no offense
2014-05-18T12:14:41Z ltbarcly: that's why I'm asking :)
2014-05-18T12:15:07Z ltbarcly: unfortunately, (declare ..) has some restrictions on what types of blocks it can be used in
2014-05-18T12:15:30Z ltbarcly: so it's not possible to, for example, declare the type only in a block guarded by a check on the length of the thing
2014-05-18T12:16:07Z H4ns: ltbarcly: when you're optimizing code, you often have to restructure it anyway.
2014-05-18T12:16:25Z ltbarcly: well in this case only because of the weird restriction on where types can be declared
2014-05-18T12:16:57Z H4ns: ltbarcly: so?
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2014-05-18T12:17:44Z ltbarcly: so when faced with something so obviously dumb, my first thought is that in fact it probably isn't dumb, but rather I don't know it well enough to do it well
2014-05-18T12:18:20Z H4ns: ltbarcly: right.  are you optimizing your code right now?  if not, forget about type declarations.  if you want to ensure certain types, use check-type.
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2014-05-18T12:18:42Z H4ns: ltbarcly: keyword arguments have rather high overhead anyway.
2014-05-18T12:18:52Z ltbarcly: so that's ok in this case
2014-05-18T12:19:05Z ltbarcly: as the function itself is only called rarely, but it has a tight loop in it
2014-05-18T12:19:58Z ltbarcly: I guess I could just declare an auxiliary variable and declare it's type
2014-05-18T12:20:05Z ltbarcly: anyway, back to it
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2014-05-18T12:21:37Z ltbarcly: so basically, to do what I want the best I can come up with is:
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2014-05-18T12:22:50Z ltbarcly: (defun foo (x y &key z) (when (> (length z 0)) (let ((z z)) (declare ((the-type) z)) (do..stuff..here))))
2014-05-18T12:23:01Z ltbarcly: the (let ((z z)) seems a bit insane
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2014-05-18T12:23:17Z H4ns: (defun foo (x y &key (z 0)) ...)
2014-05-18T12:23:25Z H4ns: specify a different default.
2014-05-18T12:23:35Z ltbarcly: it's a simple-array of (unsigned-byte 32)
2014-05-18T12:23:51Z H4ns: then specify a simple-array of (unsigned-byte 32) as default
2014-05-18T12:23:56Z ltbarcly: it seems silly to construct an empty one, maybe it's not expensive
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2014-05-18T13:11:27Z dim: ltbarcly: you said that the function isn't called often, but the loop inside is hot, so the per-call init sounds like a good trade-off
2014-05-18T13:11:42Z dim: also, I'm yet to use it, but there's a the form too
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2014-05-18T13:11:44Z ltbarcly: dim: yea, I that is an excellent point
2014-05-18T13:11:47Z dim: ,clhs the
2014-05-18T13:12:13Z dim: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_the.htm
2014-05-18T13:12:15Z ltbarcly: dim: the unfortunate part of the is that I would have to repeatedly say it
2014-05-18T13:12:26Z ltbarcly: but your first point about the function not being called often is a very good one
2014-05-18T13:13:07Z dim: (let ((z (the (simple-array '(unsigned-byte 32)) z))) ...) maybe
2014-05-18T13:13:23Z ltbarcly: I just find it odd that I can do something as obviously pointless as (let ((x x)) and now I have a block that I can legally declare the type in, whereas without that pointless construct it would be illegal
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2014-05-18T13:13:51Z ltbarcly: I'm sure there is a well thought out reason, but I don't see it off the bat
2014-05-18T13:14:07Z H4ns: ltbarcly: it is not at all pointless, because with your length check you verify the type manually.
2014-05-18T13:14:22Z ltbarcly: and generally I find that the best way to learn somthing is to dig in and get my head straight whenever what I expect doesn't match the actual situation
2014-05-18T13:14:33Z ltbarcly: (ie, when my mental model proves insufficient)
2014-05-18T13:14:35Z H4ns: ltbarcly: you cannot have someone pass a nil and insist that it is an array at the same time.  i don't find it hard to understand.
2014-05-18T13:14:50Z ltbarcly: H4ns: I think you don't quite see what I'm getting at
2014-05-18T13:15:16Z dim: you could also split your code in outer and inner function, do all the checks on the outer function and do the real implementation with (declare ...) in the inner function
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2014-05-18T13:15:29Z dim: then you can also (declaim (inline ...)) the inner function
2014-05-18T13:15:34Z ltbarcly: dim: I thought of that, in fact I could even declare teh inner function inline
2014-05-18T13:15:35Z ltbarcly: yea
2014-05-18T13:15:35Z dim: and name it %outer-helper or something
2014-05-18T13:15:54Z ltbarcly: but that seems like a silly hoop to jump through just to trick the compiler into doing what it clearly can already do
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2014-05-18T13:16:12Z ltbarcly: anyway, it's not a major issue, but I would bet that there is a third way that we haven't thought of that is clean and not redundant
2014-05-18T13:16:21Z dim: it also can be seen as a nice layering where you check your pre-conditions at the right place
2014-05-18T13:16:23Z ltbarcly: or a fifth way
2014-05-18T13:16:24Z H4ns: ltbarcly: you keep saying silly.
2014-05-18T13:17:11Z ltbarcly: H4ns: yes, it is silly to create an alias over the same name to give a scoped declaration of type, when it is illegal to give that same declaration in the same scope otherwise
2014-05-18T13:17:21Z dim: ltbarcly: and H4ns is of course ritht that a nil just can not be considered as an empty array of anything in CL, that's just how it works
2014-05-18T13:17:29Z H4ns: ltbarcly: it is not silly.  it is completely straightforward.
2014-05-18T13:17:32Z ltbarcly: dim: yes, that is of course true
2014-05-18T13:17:39Z ltbarcly: H4ns: it isn't straight forward at all
2014-05-18T13:17:43Z dim: and I think that's the root of your current design issue
2014-05-18T13:17:49Z H4ns: ltbarcly: if you want nil to be a legal argument value, you need to declare the type accordingly.
2014-05-18T13:17:59Z dim: you keep wanting to write code as if nil was possibly a simple array of unsigned-byte 32
2014-05-18T13:18:01Z ltbarcly: H4ns: again you are missing the fundemental point here
2014-05-18T13:18:20Z ltbarcly: here, let me just type up an example, I am probably not actually saying what I mean to
2014-05-18T13:18:26Z H4ns: ltbarcly: don't you want to say silly again?
2014-05-18T13:18:34Z ltbarcly: I'll type up a silly example :)
2014-05-18T13:24:48Z ltbarcly: oh, I think I see what is happening, you can only declare a type immediately after creating a lexically scoped variable?
2014-05-18T13:25:20Z ltbarcly: so that makes sense, but only as a way to simplify the implementation, not so much as a logical necessity
2014-05-18T13:25:26Z ltbarcly: dim: does that seem about right?
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2014-05-18T13:27:04Z dim: well, if you want to have an opinion, go with that. what's important for writing code is to know how the things you're using actually work, right?
2014-05-18T13:27:05Z Krystof: it's not true, whether it seems right or not
2014-05-18T13:27:23Z Krystof: you can declare types at arbitrary points in your program using LOCALLY
2014-05-18T13:27:34Z ltbarcly: Krystof AHA!
2014-05-18T13:27:49Z Krystof: whether that does what you want it to in the implementation you are using is another matter
2014-05-18T13:28:00Z ltbarcly: ok, looking at clhs that is exactly the thing that I was looking for
2014-05-18T13:28:24Z ltbarcly: H4ns: so now it is not silly, the langauge has exactly what I was missing and I just didn't know where to find it
2014-05-18T13:28:26Z dim is discovering locally too
2014-05-18T13:29:34Z ltbarcly: so it looks like locally is effectively the correct way to make use of declare in the way I was attempting to, except it gives you the full power of any declaration, not just ones you can shoehorn in using that (let ((x x)) silliness
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2014-05-18T13:38:06Z H4ns: ltbarcly: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142602
2014-05-18T13:38:44Z H4ns: uh, well, there is a return value missing, but the point stays the same.
2014-05-18T13:39:29Z H4ns: the point being: when optimizing, it does not make sense to argue "silly" or "not beautiful".  you need to do what makes the compiler emit fast code, no matter what.
2014-05-18T13:41:21Z ltbarcly: H4ns: it looks like you prematurely close the (locally block
2014-05-18T13:41:43Z H4ns: oh, is that right?
2014-05-18T13:42:02Z H4ns: that's nice.  i retract all my snarky comments
2014-05-18T13:43:16Z H4ns: ltbarcly: well, i can't, but i can apologize :)
2014-05-18T13:43:31Z ltbarcly: H4ns: the main thing is everyone just got smarter
2014-05-18T13:43:35Z ltbarcly: especially me
2014-05-18T13:44:00Z H4ns: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142602#2
2014-05-18T13:44:37Z H4ns: yes.  thanks, Krystof
2014-05-18T13:45:18Z ltbarcly: so locally seems like a very nice thing
2014-05-18T13:45:31Z ltbarcly: because you can zero in type hints right where they are necessary
2014-05-18T13:45:48Z ltbarcly: but not have to use (the all the time, which is annoying at least to me
2014-05-18T13:46:46Z dim: H4ns: (incf x) returns x, right?
2014-05-18T13:47:05Z H4ns: it does, as it appears.
2014-05-18T13:47:20Z H4ns: i surely wish i was smart :)
2014-05-18T13:48:03Z H4ns: ltbarcly: i still don't understand why you can't declare the type as (or null (...))
2014-05-18T13:48:22Z ltbarcly: well, one is that I didn't know the type should be 'null'
2014-05-18T13:48:26Z ltbarcly: so that was probably the main thing
2014-05-18T13:48:58Z ltbarcly: but also I doubt the compiler can optimize aref unless it is sure the type is simple-array and the type of the entries
2014-05-18T13:48:59Z H4ns: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142602#3
2014-05-18T13:49:09Z ltbarcly: because it should in that case make it a simple pointer addition
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2014-05-18T13:49:54Z ltbarcly: good point, it looks like it can fairly efficiently check
2014-05-18T13:50:02Z H4ns: well, in the end, you'll have to look at the assembly output anyway.  in my trivial example, the locally and (or null ...) variants produce the same code
2014-05-18T13:50:58Z ltbarcly: very nearly
2014-05-18T13:51:00Z H4ns: uh, no.  not precisely the same
2014-05-18T13:51:02Z ltbarcly: it looks like something is odd there
2014-05-18T13:51:30Z dim: mmm, you can actually omit "type" in the declare form?
2014-05-18T13:51:56Z ltbarcly: I think "type" is for declaim
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2014-05-18T13:52:18Z H4ns: well, this was interesting.  thanks.
2014-05-18T13:52:57Z ltbarcly: common lisp continues to amaze me
2014-05-18T13:52:58Z ltbarcly: :)
2014-05-18T13:53:37Z H4ns: ltbarcly: i think in the last case, the compiler thinks that it first needs to move the value to a new register that has only the "fixnum" type.
2014-05-18T13:53:49Z ltbarcly: H4ns: yea, it seems to be a bit of a quirk
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2014-05-18T13:53:50Z H4ns: ltbarcly: and then does the addition in that egister.
2014-05-18T13:53:59Z dim: that most people, without even trying it, consider CL as a high-level (only) functionnal programming language is what amazes me, but not in a positive sense of it
2014-05-18T13:54:01Z ltbarcly: since in the previous case it also did the addition in the register
2014-05-18T13:54:34Z ltbarcly: dim: I will have to say it is a largish language, and not one you can get started with little by little, I think the learning curve is much more steep
2014-05-18T13:54:54Z ltbarcly: but that is not really a problem with the language itself, but it does hurt adoption
2014-05-18T13:54:58Z dim: I'm 2 years into the learning curve, yeah, I don't know where/if it ends ;-)
2014-05-18T13:55:01Z H4ns: it can easily be learned in some 20 years.
2014-05-18T13:55:21Z H4ns: i'm only 12 years in.  but i'm also pretty slow, i guess :)
2014-05-18T13:55:21Z ltbarcly: I don't think having a good learning trajectory was one of the design considerations, which is too bad
2014-05-18T13:55:37Z dim: H4ns: ;-)
2014-05-18T13:55:42Z ltbarcly: but that is also true of C++
2014-05-18T13:56:03Z dim: well, to learn a programming language I know of only one effective way: write code to solve problems you're interested into solcing for real
2014-05-18T13:56:23Z theos: trues
2014-05-18T13:56:23Z ltbarcly: C++ has the same problem of hard learning trajectory, except you can fake it by dropping down and just writing C wherever you don't know the right way in C++
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2014-05-18T13:56:35Z ltbarcly: dim: that's a great point, you can't learn by trying to learn
2014-05-18T13:56:38Z theos: but CL > C++
2014-05-18T13:56:56Z dim: I would argue that CL is much easier to learn that C++
2014-05-18T13:57:16Z ltbarcly: dim: I agree, but I think it is easier to just write C while using the handful of C++ constructs you know
2014-05-18T13:57:23Z ltbarcly: which is 99.9999% of C++ code in the wild
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2014-05-18T13:58:07Z dim: more control flow structures, macros instead of templates, no #define mess, project definitions are in lisp, not in Make or cmake or VS project setup or something else entirely, and CLOS is far easier to get your head against than C++ style OOP is
2014-05-18T13:58:29Z ltbarcly: to put it another way, how many C++ programmers figure out the details of how allocation works, vs just using Malloc/calloc all over the place
2014-05-18T13:58:45Z ltbarcly: but there's no argument that C++ is just an awful awful language
2014-05-18T13:58:51Z dim: I guess we're slowly getting off-topic now ;-)
2014-05-18T13:59:13Z phadthai: http://cvs.pulsar-zone.net/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/mmondor/mmsoftware/cl/server/GNUmakefile?rev=1.15;content-type=text%2Fplain  Makefile for lisp :)
2014-05-18T13:59:26Z ltbarcly: so to pull it back, my point is C++ is insurmountably hard to learn well, but it lets you just cheat and not learn it and use C instead
2014-05-18T13:59:53Z dim: phadthai: I actually have Makefiles in my lisp project, they use Quicklisp and buildapp to produce a binary image
2014-05-18T14:00:01Z stassats: phadthai: what is so amusing about that?
2014-05-18T14:00:03Z ltbarcly: oh, I take it back, the gnu make language is worse than C++
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2014-05-18T14:00:20Z dim: phadthai: see https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/Makefile for an example
2014-05-18T14:00:24Z phadthai: stassats: just that a few lines above I read "no makefiles" :)
2014-05-18T14:00:41Z dim: but you don't *need* a Makefile to compile a lisp project and hack it
2014-05-18T14:00:58Z dim: well I guess technically you don't absolutely need one for C++...
2014-05-18T14:01:04Z stassats: and you are saying like ASDF is any better than make
2014-05-18T14:01:16Z ltbarcly: ASDF is better than make in lots of ways
2014-05-18T14:01:24Z axion: dim: did you ever figure out the answer to running multiple hunchentoot servers in the same image?
2014-05-18T14:01:29Z ltbarcly: I mean both are annoyingly complex, but Make has the shittiness of the ages encoded in it
2014-05-18T14:01:32Z stassats: does make break things with each new version?
2014-05-18T14:01:48Z dim: stassats: I'm yet to have any comparable kind of problems with my asd files than I had and continue to have with my Makefiles
2014-05-18T14:01:51Z stassats: or does it perform hot patches itself when you are not looking?
2014-05-18T14:01:52Z ltbarcly: stassats: that's the problem, it never breaks anything, leading to 5 of everything
2014-05-18T14:02:17Z ltbarcly: have you looked at many makefiles?
2014-05-18T14:02:21Z dim: stassats: in PostgreSQL we have problems with make 3.81 vs previous and next versions, yes, and also with gmake vs BSD make vs other implementations, yes
2014-05-18T14:02:39Z ltbarcly: it's baroque enough that people often drop into doing loops by escaping to shell
2014-05-18T14:02:48Z ltbarcly: which is basically defeating Make to be able to use make
2014-05-18T14:03:07Z dim: axion: H4ns told me you can't do multiple ports with easy-handlers, that I'm using, so I guess it's all about learning how to do it "properly" for that use case, which isn't a "real" use case of mine, just a hacker facility
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2014-05-18T14:03:58Z axion: dim: Ah, I have experienced the same problems. Indeed I was subclassing easy-handler
2014-05-18T14:04:13Z ltbarcly: fundamentally make is just a crappy DSL around tsort and checking timestamps on files, except probably harder to get to do what you want :)
2014-05-18T14:04:25Z dim: these days I'm even using a route lib facility that itself subclasses easy-handler, so...
2014-05-18T14:04:32Z stassats: ok, i concede, make is just as bad as asdf
2014-05-18T14:04:54Z dim: https://raw.github.com/vancan1ty/simple-routes/master/simple-routes.lisp is what I'm using, axion
2014-05-18T14:05:00Z ltbarcly: stassats: asdf 3 has been much better for me than previously
2014-05-18T14:05:18Z axion: dim: Ah I'm using madnificent's routing macro he gave me a couple years ago
2014-05-18T14:05:30Z dim: https://github.com/vancan1ty/simple-routes might be a better URL for that even
2014-05-18T14:06:27Z axion: http://paste.lisp.org/display/132161
2014-05-18T14:06:28Z dim: I had to "vendor" the file in my project to be able to ASDF load it via Quicklisp, which I guess tells more than it should about stassats point
2014-05-18T14:07:32Z axion: allows you to 'specialize' on url parts and parameters
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2014-05-18T14:07:39Z axion: I haven't tried any other way though
2014-05-18T14:07:56Z H4ns: the problem with easy-handlers is that they work off globally bound variables
2014-05-18T14:08:12Z dim: simple routes make it easy to have a good viewpoint of your url api, I like that better than spreading the routing pieces at a time in each handler function directly
2014-05-18T14:08:14Z H4ns: so subclassing does not give you any leverage when it comes to define-easy-handler
2014-05-18T14:08:31Z stassats: see http://paste.lisp.org/display/142603
2014-05-18T14:09:14Z H4ns: define-easy-handler still modifies *easy-handler-alist*
2014-05-18T14:09:21Z stassats: don't use define-easy-handler
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2014-05-18T14:10:02Z H4ns: well, if i do, i don't expect to be able to run multiple servers with different handlers, but users obviously do.
2014-05-18T14:10:40Z H4ns: so if there is a need, it may well be possible to modify define-easy-handler so that it can do that.
2014-05-18T14:10:50Z dim: it's more a wft than a proper expectation, at least in my case
2014-05-18T14:11:06Z dim: and the wtf effect clears away instantly when said how it workd
2014-05-18T14:11:09Z dim: works, even
2014-05-18T14:11:52Z dim: H4ns: it would need to have an *easy-handler-alist* per acceptor?
2014-05-18T14:12:07Z H4ns: dim: probably one for each acceptor class
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2014-05-18T14:12:46Z dim: I would have imagined instance, because IIRC it's possible to add handlers at run-time
2014-05-18T14:12:49Z H4ns: dim: or the handlers could be put into separate buckets.  but in the end, it will be hard to fix the design, which is rather old.
2014-05-18T14:13:05Z H4ns: dim: classes can be changed at run-time as well.
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2014-05-18T14:14:08Z dim: yeah but if you did make-instance 'your-acceptor-class :port 8080, and then add handlers at run-time, do you want the other 'your-acceptor-class application running on :8081 to be affected?
2014-05-18T14:14:13Z dim: I would guess no
2014-05-18T14:14:23Z H4ns: i would guess so
2014-05-18T14:14:40Z H4ns: the easy-handlers thing is not really meant to be run-time reconfigured.
2014-05-18T14:14:40Z dim: so I would target per-instance easy handler alist, naively
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2014-05-18T14:14:55Z dim: oh, ok, I think I read API to do that in the docs
2014-05-18T14:14:57Z H4ns: i think easy-handlers is convenient, but overall stinks.
2014-05-18T14:15:54Z dim: yeah, I was about to say that the real answer is to build another dispatch routine
2014-05-18T14:18:03Z stassats: you can use define-easy-handler for multiple ports: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142603#1
2014-05-18T14:18:28Z dim: would the hunchentoot project itself be interested into providing a simple-routes like API?
2014-05-18T14:18:38Z H4ns: eek.
2014-05-18T14:18:47Z stassats: (expect the above to be slower)
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2014-05-18T14:20:41Z H4ns: dim: i think that a better user-level api for hunchentoot would be nice, but i have no need for writing one.
2014-05-18T14:21:31Z dim: well I'm using hunchentoot + simple-routes now in a couple of projects and it would be kind of nice to be able to run them together on separate ports in the same image... so...
2014-05-18T14:21:54Z dim: I guess it would be better to improve simple-routes to do what I need, actually
2014-05-18T14:21:55Z H4ns: dim: why can't you?  is that not a problem that would need to be fixed in simple-routes?
2014-05-18T14:22:02Z dim: like, load in asdf and ql for starters
2014-05-18T14:22:24Z dim: H4ns: yeah, simple-routes is where work needs to be done
2014-05-18T14:22:59Z dim: I guess simple-routes should define its own acceptor-dispatch-request method
2014-05-18T14:23:28Z dim: it already does (defclass simpleroutes-acceptor (easy-acceptor) ()), so it should be easy enough I guess
2014-05-18T14:23:33Z H4ns: dim: right.  i think hunchentoot's api has sufficient hooks for any higher-level framework.
2014-05-18T14:23:54Z dim: yeah, no need to hack hunchentoot here
2014-05-18T14:23:57Z H4ns: dim: but i'd not inherit from easy-acceptor.  easy-acceptor is a legacy framework and should be ignored, in my opinion.
2014-05-18T14:24:13Z dim: the question was more about interest in providing something easier even than define-easy-handler
2014-05-18T14:24:46Z dim: oh, (defmethod acceptor-dispatch-request ((acceptor simpleroutes-acceptor) request) ...)
2014-05-18T14:24:48Z H4ns: if it should be easier, then it should not try to simplify easy-handlers.
2014-05-18T14:24:50Z dim: they already have that
2014-05-18T14:26:50Z dim: you would advice inheriting from acceptor directly?
2014-05-18T14:27:02Z H4ns: yes, i would
2014-05-18T14:27:41Z H4ns: easy-acceptor is only useful if one uses define-easy-handler.
2014-05-18T14:28:13Z dim: yeah, and I'm not doing that, so it looks a very straightforward move here
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2014-05-18T14:33:46Z dim: oh, simple-routes uses a *routeslist* the same way as easy handlers are using the one true dispatch table
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2014-05-18T14:44:47Z dim: ok it works
2014-05-18T14:44:52Z dim: thanks H4ns and axion ;-)
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2014-05-18T14:45:03Z dim: oh and stassats too, for the examples
2014-05-18T14:45:24Z dim: even if I didn't use them but hacked my vendored'in copy of simple-routes to stop using them instead
2014-05-18T14:48:18Z dim: axion: https://github.com/dimitri/pginstall/commit/407a8e61b4ec308248f01e6c4f29224b23940137 if you're intersted into the details
2014-05-18T14:49:30Z dim: now I have two apps on :8042 and :9042 and much rejoicing ;-)
2014-05-18T14:51:21Z ltbarcly: is there a consensus way to pass a "function with state", either a funcallable-standard-class instance or a closure around a regular instance of a subclass of standard-object?  It looks like funcallable-standard-class should work, but maybe inconsistently between CL implementations?  (sbcl seems to impose restrictions)
2014-05-18T14:52:43Z axion: dim: what did you do?
2014-05-18T14:52:46Z axion: to easy-routes
2014-05-18T14:53:09Z axion: err simple-routes
2014-05-18T14:53:20Z dim: intern the routes into the specific acceptor class, stop using easy-acceptor but acceptor instead, the link aboe has the whole patch
2014-05-18T14:53:24Z Krystof: ltbarcly: I'd use a funcallable-standard-object
2014-05-18T14:53:29Z Krystof: what constraints are you worried about?
2014-05-18T14:53:38Z axion: dim: nice i may switch to simple-routes. never tried it
2014-05-18T14:53:42Z dim: trying now to simplify (setf (simple-routes::routes *acceptor*) *routes*) each time I need to change the routing
2014-05-18T14:54:05Z Krystof: basically the constraints sbcl imposes are common-sense ones.  (If you make a funcallable-standard-object, make sure the type system knows that it's a function)
2014-05-18T14:55:05Z dim: ,clhs funcallable-standard-object
2014-05-18T14:56:52Z dim is tempted to pass-in a symbol and use symbol-value at run time
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2014-05-18T14:59:33Z dim: works
2014-05-18T14:59:56Z dim: so at run-time, (let ((routes (routes acceptor))) (typecase routes (symbol (symbol-value routes)) (t routes))) might not be the speediest thing ever
2014-05-18T15:00:23Z dim: hopefully I'm not working on that big a scale that I need to worry
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2014-05-18T18:33:41Z ltbarcly: with the loop macro, is there a builtin way to test for a pre-condition for the loop to run at all?  so equivalent to the when wrapping (when (> x 0) (loop for y below 10 do (incf x y)))
2014-05-18T18:34:10Z ltbarcly: there is always, but it is evaluated for each iteration (it seems)
2014-05-18T18:34:50Z stassats:  initially (unless (plusp x) (return))
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2014-05-18T20:26:56Z ltbarcly: pjb: ahh, yea I had that wrong.  I would have thought it would just evaluate clauses in the order they appear, except only evaluating initially/finally before the first iteration and after the last iteration
2014-05-18T20:27:21Z pjb: Some implementation warn if you put initialize before for.
2014-05-18T20:27:56Z ltbarcly: but with for/as, how can those be evaluated before initially?  is initially evaluated after iteration has started?
2014-05-18T20:28:48Z stassats: i can run commonqt on my phone, with a remote X server as a display
2014-05-18T20:29:06Z pjb: Oh, I may be wrong.  (loop for i = (print 'hello) then 'bye initially (print 'initial) (return) do (print i)) only prints initial.
2014-05-18T20:30:27Z ltbarcly: pjb: you may have meant with clauses
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2014-05-18T20:30:47Z pjb: Yes, I was wrong. "6.1.7.2 Initial and Final Execution" says explicitely: The initially construct causes the supplied compound-forms to be evaluated in the loop prologue, which precedes all loop code except for initial settings supplied by constructs with, for, or as. The code for any initially clauses is executed in the order in which the clauses appeared in the loop.
2014-05-18T20:30:59Z ltbarcly: there's no clear reason to run with clauses or initially first, other than what makes 'sense' would be to run them in the order they appear
2014-05-18T20:31:07Z pjb: But syntax wise, you still have to write it after the with and for clauses.
2014-05-18T20:31:43Z ltbarcly: hmm, in sbcl I have it before the for clauses and it's not warning me
2014-05-18T20:34:06Z ltbarcly: yea, this seems fine:  (let ((x 0)) (loop initially (when (= x 0) (return)) for y = x for i below x do (print y)))
2014-05-18T20:35:34Z ltbarcly: as does:  (let ((x 0)) (loop initially (when (= x 0) (return)) with y = x for i below x do (print y)))
2014-05-18T20:35:43Z ltbarcly: at least sbcl seems to do what I would expect
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2014-05-18T20:37:33Z ltbarcly: in fact sbcl doesn't care where initially shows up, for example: (let ((x 0)) (loop with y = x for i below x do (print y) initially (when (= x 0) (return))))
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2014-05-18T20:38:36Z ltbarcly: reading 6.1.7, it seems to me that the only ordering that effects initially is the order of multiple initially clauses
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2014-05-18T20:50:27Z drewc: stassats: android? https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=x.org.server
2014-05-18T20:51:38Z drewc uses that to run http://opencpn.org/ocpn/ on his android devices in a chrooted debian/ubuntu
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2014-05-18T20:59:24Z H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new>. |Contact op if you can't speak| New: hunchentoot 1.2.27, asdf 3.1.2, cl-launch 4.0.4
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2014-05-18T21:15:24Z stassats: H4ns: flexi-streams has 1.0.12 version, but the .asd file still says 1.0.11
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2014-05-18T21:15:45Z H4ns: let me check
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2014-05-18T21:16:53Z H4ns: hm, something wrong with my release script, thanks for pointing at it.
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2014-05-18T21:22:00Z H4ns: ok, fixed.  1.0.13 is released
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2014-05-18T23:57:31Z Fare: hi
2014-05-18T23:57:36Z Fare: stupid style question
2014-05-18T23:57:50Z Fare: so I've translate the asdf build & test scripts to CL
2014-05-18T23:58:22Z Fare: but the result is about 1200 lines, that I'd like to break up into its own directory
2014-05-18T23:58:34Z Fare: question: what to name the directory?
2014-05-18T23:58:47Z Fare: problem: build/ is already use to store the outputs
2014-05-19T00:00:14Z nyef: build-tools/, build-scripts/, tools-for-build/, rename the existing build/ directory to output/ or something...?
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2014-05-19T00:03:57Z Fare: nyef: renaming is somewhat disruptive of things that expect asdf.lisp to be in build/
2014-05-19T00:04:35Z Fare: meta/ ? asdfasdf/ ? make/ ? release/ ?
2014-05-19T00:04:51Z nyef: build-asdf/ ?
2014-05-19T00:05:05Z nyef: utils/ ?
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2014-05-19T00:14:21Z Fare: I'm trying to avoid build as a prefix, not to have confusing completion
2014-05-19T00:14:33Z Fare: utils suggests something like uiop
2014-05-19T00:15:34Z Fare: tools/ sounds best so far
2014-05-19T00:17:02Z pjb: the-directory-formerly-known-as-build
2014-05-19T00:17:30Z nyef: genesis/ ?
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2014-05-19T00:23:00Z pillton: make/
2014-05-19T00:23:03Z pillton: :)
2014-05-19T00:23:26Z pillton realises Fare already said that one.
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2014-05-19T00:24:28Z nyef: construct/ ?
2014-05-19T00:24:41Z pillton: assemble/
2014-05-19T00:25:11Z nyef: integrate/, compose/, synonym/ ?
2014-05-19T00:26:29Z pillton: reduction/
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2014-05-19T00:27:07Z nyef: prepare/, sigma/, bake/, cook/ ?
2014-05-19T00:28:19Z jsnell_: I assume the latest few attempts have been some kind of attempt to make tools/ look better in comparison :-)
2014-05-19T00:29:20Z Fare: I think I'll go with tools/
2014-05-19T00:30:02Z Fare: I realize I shouldn't be working on it, but oh well, I started and it's almost done (famous last words), although it's not quite what I expected.
2014-05-19T00:30:49Z Fare: I just ended up writing functions, when I was expecting that make logic would be translated into asdf dependency logic. Nope.
2014-05-19T00:31:42Z Fare: so it's less interesting than anticipated. On the other hand, some of this tooling could be reused by other people who for some reason aim at extreme CL portability.
2014-05-19T00:32:02Z Fare: or for cross-compiling.
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2014-05-19T01:12:18Z Mueble: hgi
2014-05-19T01:12:20Z Mueble: hi
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2014-05-19T01:16:34Z Mueble: hi
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2014-05-19T01:20:40Z Mueble: hey
2014-05-19T01:20:48Z Mueble: anyone?
2014-05-19T01:21:06Z pillton: Mueble: Just ask your question.
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2014-05-19T01:24:15Z pillton: Mueble: Most people are working whilst being on #lisp, so you are essentially interrupting people's work so that they can read "Hi."
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2014-05-19T01:26:37Z pillton: Having said that, most people are happy to answer questions.
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2014-05-19T01:35:14Z erikc: cause answering questions about lisp is probably better than working in whatever language you actually work in
2014-05-19T01:35:17Z erikc: zing!
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2014-05-19T01:38:27Z pillton: I work in CL and I don't mind answering questions.
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2014-05-19T01:39:29Z erikc: im always curious where CL is used in industry, ITA is all i know of
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2014-05-19T01:40:42Z pillton: NovaSparks, Accenture Interactive off the top of my head.
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2014-05-19T01:41:59Z nyef: Is Naughty Dog still using Lisp?
2014-05-19T01:42:05Z pillton: In my opinion, productivity trumps the percentages of businesses that use a particular language.
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2014-05-19T01:42:23Z pjb: nyef: nope.
2014-05-19T01:42:45Z Mueble: sorry I was checking that could actually talk in this channel.
2014-05-19T01:43:01Z Zhivago: We can fix that, if you like.
2014-05-19T01:43:10Z erikc: nyef: they use Racket in their build pipe and scripting system, but after the Sony purchase they had to switch to C++ to share technology
2014-05-19T01:43:36Z pjb: Mueble: you should use #test for tests.
2014-05-19T01:43:48Z erikc: o yea, D-Wave (quantum computing company) uses CL
2014-05-19T01:45:07Z Zhivago: You should consider the benefits to yourself, rather than conducting a popularity contest.
2014-05-19T01:45:08Z Mueble: I'm learning to program with the book Land of Lisp.  can you guys recommend some websites where I can get code samples of small applications.
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2014-05-19T01:45:30Z pjb: Mueble: quicklisp has some applications amongst the libraries.
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2014-05-19T01:45:48Z Mueble: thanks I'll check that
2014-05-19T01:46:33Z Zhivago: common-lisp.net had a bunch of stuff, but something terrible seems to have happened.
2014-05-19T01:47:44Z pjb: Mueble: http://www.cliki.net/application
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2014-05-19T01:49:04Z Mueble: thanks
2014-05-19T01:49:30Z zRecursive: Many codes there are not active for years. so i suggest you use SBCL which is VERY active now :)
2014-05-19T01:50:07Z Mueble: You mean code for CLISP?
2014-05-19T01:50:21Z zRecursive: code for sbcl
2014-05-19T01:50:40Z zRecursive: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl
2014-05-19T01:51:08Z Mueble: sorry I don't get the "active code" concept. Does it mean that It won't run on the new interpreter?
2014-05-19T01:51:33Z zRecursive: nope, just mean "not maintained"
2014-05-19T01:51:37Z Mueble: oh
2014-05-19T01:51:38Z Mueble: ok
2014-05-19T01:51:58Z PuercoPop: zRecursive: Land of Lisp 'requires' clisp for the socket part. It doesn't use bordeaux threads. Although that is along the book.
2014-05-19T01:52:30Z Mueble: I just want the code to read it and run it , so that I can try to understand it. It doesn't matter to me that It's not fully functional.
2014-05-19T01:53:16Z zRecursive: The last release of CLISP is in 2010
2014-05-19T01:54:04Z pjb: No bug found since 2010!  No new CL standard since 2010!  Mission succesful!
2014-05-19T01:54:10Z pjb: Kahplah!
2014-05-19T01:54:51Z Mueble: oh, ok. but for learning purposes does it matter so much?
2014-05-19T01:55:04Z PuercoPop: Try github or look for libraries at quickdocs.com And read the code.
2014-05-19T01:55:16Z pjb: Exactly, for learning purpose, what matters is to have a nice REPL (with readline), and a nice debugger.
2014-05-19T01:55:17Z Mueble: ok thanks
2014-05-19T01:55:32Z pjb: http://cliki.net/TutorialClispDebugger
2014-05-19T01:55:35Z zRecursive: Mueble: Thread support in CLISP is always experimental
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2014-05-19T01:59:47Z PuercoPop: Mueble: do you use/have you tried emacs with slime?
2014-05-19T02:00:35Z Mueble: yes
2014-05-19T02:00:50Z Mueble: when I see my name that means it is a private message?
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2014-05-19T02:04:08Z chu: It's a public message (to the entire channel), just directed to you.
2014-05-19T02:04:24Z Mueble: oh
2014-05-19T02:04:26Z Mueble: ok
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2014-05-19T02:09:53Z ryuo: Mueble: first language?
2014-05-19T02:10:48Z PuercoPop: Mueble: then you can use slime's M-. to dive into code bases
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2014-05-19T02:12:21Z Mueble: first language?
2014-05-19T02:12:26Z Mueble: programming language?
2014-05-19T02:12:30Z ryuo: Mueble: programming language.
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2014-05-19T02:12:41Z Mueble: none :(
2014-05-19T02:12:53Z Mueble: I'm learning lisp right now
2014-05-19T02:13:05Z ryuo: Mueble: So what have you worked with in the past?
2014-05-19T02:13:27Z Mueble: I'm just learning this stuff
2014-05-19T02:13:41Z ryuo: Mueble: so it is your first exposure to a language?
2014-05-19T02:13:43Z Mueble: should I join some noob channel or something?
2014-05-19T02:13:47Z Mueble: yes
2014-05-19T02:14:02Z ryuo: Mueble: No idea. Everyone's path is different.
2014-05-19T02:14:13Z ryuo: Mueble: I'm trying to learn lisp myself but I've used C for years.
2014-05-19T02:14:35Z Mueble: You seem almost shocked that I know so little .
2014-05-19T02:14:36Z ryuo: Mueble: I'm trying to learn lisp myself but I've used C for years.
2014-05-19T02:14:37Z ryuo: err
2014-05-19T02:14:41Z ryuo: Oops.
2014-05-19T02:14:59Z Mueble: yeah I'm just learning to program I though C was much more difficult than Lisp.
2014-05-19T02:15:22Z ryuo: It has a difficulty curve, but I find Lisp tedious at this stage.
2014-05-19T02:15:34Z ryuo: I haven't gotten far enought to really gauge it yet.
2014-05-19T02:15:53Z ryuo: From experience I can tell you some languages just suck to work with.
2014-05-19T02:16:12Z ryuo: No idea about Lisp yet, it's just foreign right now.
2014-05-19T02:16:48Z ryuo: Mueble: I'm using a different book, but yea.
2014-05-19T02:17:14Z Mueble: What book ?
2014-05-19T02:17:32Z ryuo: Mueble: practical common lisp. the author has it available for free online.
2014-05-19T02:17:37Z Mueble: oh
2014-05-19T02:17:45Z ryuo: But, I think it may have been written for people with prior experience.
2014-05-19T02:17:54Z Mueble: good to know
2014-05-19T02:17:59Z Bike: minion: tell Mueble about gentle
2014-05-19T02:17:59Z minion: Mueble: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2014-05-19T02:18:31Z Mueble: but Land of Lisp seems fun so far. I don't find it difficult at all.
2014-05-19T02:18:51Z ryuo: Mueble: how old are you at present?
2014-05-19T02:18:57Z Mueble: 25
2014-05-19T02:19:00Z ryuo: Ah.
2014-05-19T02:19:19Z ryuo: I am 26, having used C and Posix shell script for 5 years or so.
2014-05-19T02:19:28Z Mueble: too old to learn to program?
2014-05-19T02:19:33Z ryuo: No.
2014-05-19T02:19:36Z ryuo: Never too old.
2014-05-19T02:19:45Z Mueble: I know most people learn at a super young age.
2014-05-19T02:19:52Z ryuo: But, I don't know how hard it will be for you.
2014-05-19T02:20:06Z ryuo: the CS classes I'm taking now are way too easy...
2014-05-19T02:20:27Z ryuo: They use 'Java', and people in my classes have trouble grasping basic concepts, but...
2014-05-19T02:20:40Z Mueble: you are at university?
2014-05-19T02:20:45Z ryuo: A community college.
2014-05-19T02:20:51Z Mueble: ok
2014-05-19T02:21:09Z Mueble: I'm from Chile btw.
2014-05-19T02:21:14Z ryuo: I don't know if they are learning what they need to do to be good programmers.
2014-05-19T02:21:32Z Mueble: in your classes you mean?
2014-05-19T02:21:37Z ryuo: Indeed.
2014-05-19T02:22:35Z Mueble: what are the concepts of C that suposedly teach you something fundamental about programming?
2014-05-19T02:22:42Z Zhivago: Arrays.
2014-05-19T02:22:47Z ryuo: Low level details.
2014-05-19T02:22:51Z Zhivago: Such as?
2014-05-19T02:23:08Z ryuo: Pointers, but I don't know how much you really need those these days.
2014-05-19T02:23:20Z Zhivago: What's low level about pointers? A pointer is an index into an array.
2014-05-19T02:23:37Z Mueble: the memory stuff you do it with malloc and other functions right?
2014-05-19T02:23:42Z Mueble: or through pointers?
2014-05-19T02:23:49Z loke: You don't normally "learn" to be a good programmer. You can learn programming, sure, but if you don't have that quasi-autistic personality you'll never enjoy it enough o be actually good.
2014-05-19T02:24:15Z Zhivago: Just have someone drop you on your head until you develop it or decide to do something else.
2014-05-19T02:24:20Z Mueble: yeah I've read that a couple of times.
2014-05-19T02:25:17Z ryuo: Zhivago: I guess they are technically arrays even if it's just a pointer to a single item.
2014-05-19T02:25:39Z Zhivago: Consider why int i; &i + 1 is well defined ... :)
2014-05-19T02:26:16Z ryuo: But, there's one major place where pointers and arrays in C diverge in syntax.
2014-05-19T02:26:25Z ryuo: When you have multiple dimensions...
2014-05-19T02:26:28Z zRecursive: Must array use continuous memory ?
2014-05-19T02:26:43Z Zhivago: C doesn't have multiply dimensioned arrays, and you are mistaken.
2014-05-19T02:26:56Z ryuo: x[3][4] ?
2014-05-19T02:27:16Z Zhivago: That's *(*(x + 3) + 4) ...
2014-05-19T02:27:17Z Bike: that's an array of arrys, slightly different
2014-05-19T02:27:28Z loke: Zhivago: It's really only well-defined because C makes an exception in that specific case. :-)  (it's illegal to have a pointer point outside of the allocated space, except for the specific case of pointing one element beyond the limit and one never dereferences it)
2014-05-19T02:27:34Z Zhivago: CL has multiply dimensioned arrays, on the other hand.
2014-05-19T02:27:49Z Zhivago: loke: That's only well defined because C says that all objects are effectively stored in arrays.
2014-05-19T02:27:51Z zRecursive: Are there any memory hole between array elements ?
2014-05-19T02:28:03Z Zhivago: zrecursive: No.
2014-05-19T02:28:10Z ryuo: zRecursive: Depends how it is allocated in C.
2014-05-19T02:28:19Z loke: zRecursive: there can be
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2014-05-19T02:28:27Z loke: zRecursive: but you can make no assumtion of it
2014-05-19T02:28:29Z ryuo: zRecursive: If it is a static array, then there is no gaps.
2014-05-19T02:28:35Z Zhivago: No. Arrays are required to be contiguous.
2014-05-19T02:28:40Z Zhivago: There are no exceptions.
2014-05-19T02:28:44Z loke: ryuo: There can be padding between the elements/
2014-05-19T02:28:52Z Zhivago: There cannot be padding between the elements.
2014-05-19T02:29:16Z loke: Zhivago: what about an array of struct { char[3] } SPARC?
2014-05-19T02:29:21Z loke: i mean, ON sparc
2014-05-19T02:29:29Z Zhivago: What about it? The array won't be padded -- the struct might be.
2014-05-19T02:29:44Z loke: Zhivago: Fair rnough
2014-05-19T02:29:44Z ryuo: Zhivago: then what is an array like construct using pointers for each row?
2014-05-19T02:29:51Z ryuo: Zhivago: int **x;
2014-05-19T02:29:58Z Zhivago: Um, a pointer into an array of int *?
2014-05-19T02:30:01Z loke: what about an array of 16-bit shorts on a 36-bit architecture then?
2014-05-19T02:30:22Z zRecursive: need padding
2014-05-19T02:30:34Z Zhivago: loke: What about it? Either it will not be available, or you won't need padding.
2014-05-19T02:30:57Z ryuo: Zhivago: there's multiple allocations. one for the array of pointers then another for each row of pointer data.
2014-05-19T02:30:58Z Mueble: Hey when you guys started out how did you transition between writing console programs (toys) and writing something more sustantial? I find that when you start out you spend a lot of time doing this console stuff and it's hard to get exited about it.
2014-05-19T02:31:13Z Zhivago: ryuo: And?
2014-05-19T02:31:14Z vlnx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2014-05-19T02:31:27Z ryuo: Zhivago: So how does this differ from static/dynamic contigious arrays?
2014-05-19T02:31:41Z ryuo: Zhivago: they use about the same syntax for accessing elements.
2014-05-19T02:31:48Z ryuo: Zhivago: other than how they are allocated in memory...
2014-05-19T02:31:58Z Zhivago: ryuo: Uh, the types differ?
2014-05-19T02:32:11Z Zhivago: ryuo: char a[3][4]; What is the type of a? What is the type of a[0]?
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2014-05-19T02:33:16Z loke: Zhivago: OK, I looked it up. You are right. The padding must be in the object itself, not on the array. Makes sense, when thinking baout it, since a[b] is equivalent to b[a].
2014-05-19T02:33:36Z Zhivago: Sure, although a[b] being equivalent to b[a] would be irrelevant, regardless.
2014-05-19T02:34:15Z ryuo: Zhivago: Well, I was simply thinking that when you deference to the individual elements, their syntax is identical...
2014-05-19T02:34:25Z ryuo: dereference*
2014-05-19T02:34:36Z loke: Zhivago: well, with the b[a] think I simply wanted to highlight that n*sizeof(t) has to work. :-)
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2014-05-19T02:35:24Z Zhivago: No. It's simply because a[b] is *(a + i) which is equivalent to a(i + n)
2014-05-19T02:35:28Z Bike: Mueble: i didn't write many toys. they're boring. i tried writing small but still useful programs instead of "Hello World"s.
2014-05-19T02:35:35Z zRecursive: I am curious how c implement "sizeof" on different platforms ?
2014-05-19T02:35:36Z loke: Zhivago: exactly
2014-05-19T02:35:44Z Zhivago: sizeof doesn't come into it, because since pointers are indexes into arrays, they naturally operate at the index level.
2014-05-19T02:35:57Z Zhivago: ryuo: And?
2014-05-19T02:36:04Z loke: Zhivago: yes. Which is what I meant.
2014-05-19T02:36:23Z loke: zRecursive: sizeof is an operator, it doesn't have an "implementation" per se
2014-05-19T02:36:30Z ryuo: Zhivago: int **x; x = the pointer for the outer pointer array; x[0] = pointer for first inner array...
2014-05-19T02:36:51Z Zhivago: ryuo: Wrong. x is a pointer into an array of int *. Not to that array.
2014-05-19T02:37:04Z zRecursive: loke: then how does C know sizeof(int) is 4 or 8 ?
2014-05-19T02:37:13Z loke: zRecursive: the compiler knows.
2014-05-19T02:37:28Z Zhivago: zrecursive: How c implement "+" on different platforms?
2014-05-19T02:37:42Z cross quit (Quit: leaving)
2014-05-19T02:38:00Z zRecursive: Zhivago: "+" will produce different instructions
2014-05-19T02:38:10Z loke: zRecursive: think of it like the compiler internals worked like this: IF(expression is sizeof(T)) AND T is "int" THEN replace with the value 4
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2014-05-19T02:38:38Z loke: zRecursive: see? It's not even an "implementation", it's a simple substitution
2014-05-19T02:38:47Z Zhivago: That's also wrong.
2014-05-19T02:38:48Z zRecursive: as a macro ?
2014-05-19T02:38:57Z loke: zRecursive: no.
2014-05-19T02:39:02Z loke: zRecursive: it must be aware of the type system
2014-05-19T02:39:02Z Zhivago: Consider sizeof (int[(rand() % 10) + 1])
2014-05-19T02:39:05Z zRecursive: #define sizeof(int) 4
2014-05-19T02:39:08Z Zhivago: It's just an ... operator.
2014-05-19T02:39:10Z ryuo: ...
2014-05-19T02:39:27Z Zhivago: And it's implemented like the rest of the operators -- however the hell the compiler wants them implemented, within the constraints of the language.
2014-05-19T02:39:30Z Bike: is that actually legal?
2014-05-19T02:39:37Z loke: zRecursive: sizeof must work after the types have been determined for a given expression
2014-05-19T02:39:38Z Zhivago: Sure. C99 VLAs.
2014-05-19T02:39:57Z Zhivago: Why are we talking about C, btw?
2014-05-19T02:40:13Z zRecursive: loke: yeah
2014-05-19T02:40:57Z zRecursive: loke: but how does it determine the size of the determined type ?
2014-05-19T02:41:02Z ryuo: Zhivago: okay, then can you enlighten me on the differences between static C arrays and dynamic ones allocated with pointers? In real usage, they are very similar...
2014-05-19T02:41:18Z loke: zRecursive: it's the compiler, it can decide it any which way it wants
2014-05-19T02:41:41Z Zhivago: ryuo: You are confused. There is no such distinction.
2014-05-19T02:42:19Z Zhivago: char *p = malloc(10); allocates an array of 10 char, and returns a pointer to its first element. That array is has type char[10]; Just like char d[10]; char *p = &d[0];
2014-05-19T02:42:24Z zRecursive: loke: indeed compiler
2014-05-19T02:42:44Z ryuo: Zhivago: that holds true when there's only one level of pointers or arrays.
2014-05-19T02:43:12Z Zhivago: That's complete nonsense.
2014-05-19T02:43:23Z Zhivago: You still haven't grasped that C only has one dimensional arrays.
2014-05-19T02:43:26Z Zhivago: Think it through.
2014-05-19T02:43:41Z ryuo: Then what do you call arrays within arrays?
2014-05-19T02:43:47Z Zhivago: Uh, arrays?
2014-05-19T02:44:01Z loke: ryuo: Those are called arrays of pointers. A single dimensional array of pointers.
2014-05-19T02:44:05Z Zhivago: You ignored my question above -- try to answer it now: char a[3][4]; What is the type of a? What is the type of a[0]?
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2014-05-19T02:44:56Z ryuo: A is an array of 3 arrays containing 4 chars each?
2014-05-19T02:45:08Z Zhivago: Sure, although you misspelt a.
2014-05-19T02:45:19Z Zhivago: That's char[3][4] -- so what's the type of a[0]?
2014-05-19T02:45:28Z ryuo: an array of 4 chars (the first one).
2014-05-19T02:45:57Z ryuo: Okay, well, the main thing that confused me in the past was the fact that...
2014-05-19T02:46:00Z Zhivago: char[4].
2014-05-19T02:46:02Z loke: actually char a[3][4] is 12 bytes of continouos memory.
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2014-05-19T02:46:40Z ryuo: Suppose you take as an argument char ** or such.
2014-05-19T02:46:40Z Zhivago: loke: sizeof a is 12, but that's irrelevant.
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2014-05-19T02:46:58Z Zhivago: ryuo: Did you miss the bit about a[i] being *(a + i)?
2014-05-19T02:47:14Z ryuo: Zhivago: No...
2014-05-19T02:47:36Z loke: Zhivago: I know, but one really have to understand the degeneration of types from arrays to pointers for it to make sense fully.
2014-05-19T02:47:54Z Zhivago: There is no degeneration -- an array evaluates to a value that is a pointer to the first element of the array.
2014-05-19T02:48:08Z loke: Who not simply point to the section in the C FAQ which details this in extreme detail and clarity?
2014-05-19T02:48:08Z Zhivago: char c[3]; What is sizeof c? What is sizeof (c + 0)?
2014-05-19T02:48:51Z loke: Here
2014-05-19T02:48:55Z ryuo: First one is 3 * sizeof(char).
2014-05-19T02:48:58Z loke: ryuo: Read this, then come back: http://c-faq.com/aryptr/index.html
2014-05-19T02:49:10Z Mueble: second that
2014-05-19T02:50:10Z ryuo: loke: I haven't even had a chance to speak my understanding. Oh well.
2014-05-19T02:50:41Z loke: ryuo: Really. Read it. It contains a lot of answers to questions you haven't even asked yet. :-)
2014-05-19T02:51:10Z Zhivago: That's disappointing -- http://c-faq.com/aryptr/aryvsadr.html is wrong.
2014-05-19T02:51:44Z Zhivago: ryuo: I suggest exploring it on ##c.
2014-05-19T02:51:51Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks)
2014-05-19T02:52:19Z loke: Zhivago: What is wrong about it?
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2014-05-19T02:53:20Z ryuo: Zhivago: so is char [][] the same as char ** when passed as an argument to a function?
2014-05-19T02:53:23Z Zhivago: loke: char b[3]; What is sizeof b?
2014-05-19T02:53:38Z Zhivago: ryuo: No. There can be no object of type char[][] -- your question is wrong.
2014-05-19T02:53:41Z loke: It's 3. why?
2014-05-19T02:53:54Z Zhivago: loke: According to that page, what is the type of b?
2014-05-19T02:54:34Z Zhivago: ryuo: Also, see above -- an array evaluates to a value that is a pointer to its first element.
2014-05-19T02:54:42Z zRecursive: an array of 3 char
2014-05-19T02:54:50Z Zhivago: ryuo: char a[3][4]; What is the type of &a[0]?
2014-05-19T02:54:55Z loke: It doesn't say. It says a "reference" to a is of type pointer to int, which is a different hting, yes?
2014-05-19T02:55:10Z Zhivago: So, what's a "reference"? What a useless page.
2014-05-19T02:55:18Z Zhivago: Either wrong or incoherent -- either way, disappointing.
2014-05-19T02:55:48Z zRecursive: why C here :)
2014-05-19T02:55:51Z loke: a reference is in the case foo(a) for example
2014-05-19T02:55:54Z loke: yes?
2014-05-19T02:56:03Z pjb: We may talk about C in #lisp, because in ##c they don't know what C is.  If they knew it, they'd be horrorified, and would switch massively to #lisp.
2014-05-19T02:56:10Z Zhivago: C doesn't have references.
2014-05-19T02:56:25Z Zhivago: zrecursive: A good question -- no sensible answer has been provided.
2014-05-19T02:57:12Z loke: The term "referencened type" is well-defined
2014-05-19T02:57:20Z ryuo: Zhivago: &a[0] would evaluate to a pointer to the first element of the array...
2014-05-19T02:57:25Z zRecursive: Zhivago: how about "C implemets may CL impl." ?
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2014-05-19T02:58:37Z ryuo: Zhivago: Does this explain why i've never seen an array of arrays successfully passed directly as an argument?
2014-05-19T02:58:43Z loke: Section 6.2.5 is in the spec.
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2014-05-19T02:58:53Z zRecursive it will be good for you to understand C looking at its assembly ?
2014-05-19T02:59:26Z pjb: zRecursive: would you be so good as to translate this: "Zhivago: how about "C implemets may CL impl." ?" into English?
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2014-05-19T03:00:28Z zRecursive: "C implemets many CL impl." so we can talk C here :)
2014-05-19T03:00:42Z ryuo: Man I feel like an amateur. :|
2014-05-19T03:00:45Z ryuo: lol
2014-05-19T03:00:54Z loke: zRecursive: I'm sure the CL designers are food too, so we can also discuss cooking.
2014-05-19T03:00:59Z loke: s/are/ate/
2014-05-19T03:01:09Z zRecursive: haha
2014-05-19T03:01:14Z ufd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-05-19T03:01:36Z zRecursive: off topic though
2014-05-19T03:01:37Z ryuo: Mueble: Sorry if we scared you.
2014-05-19T03:01:53Z KCL_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2014-05-19T03:02:56Z ryuo: I really do have a lot to learn about terms. Ugh.
2014-05-19T03:03:03Z Zhivago: ryou: You can't pass arrays in C. C passes by value. The value of an array is ...?
2014-05-19T03:04:04Z ryuo: Zhivago: converts to a pointer to the array's first element?
2014-05-19T03:04:16Z Mueble: NO problem I'm sure I'll get all of this when I learn C :D
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2014-05-19T03:04:54Z Zhivago: ryou: There you go.
2014-05-19T03:04:59Z zRecursive C is indeed a mediate level language. It is closer to assembly than any other high languages.
2014-05-19T03:05:08Z Zhivago: ryou: char a[3][4]; What is the type of &a[0]?
2014-05-19T03:05:18Z ck_ quit (Quit: reboot)
2014-05-19T03:05:20Z Zhivago: zrecursive: Meaningless nonsense.
2014-05-19T03:05:24Z ryuo: Zhivago: A pointer to the array's first element.
2014-05-19T03:06:08Z zRecursive So you can understand C thoroughly by studing correspding assembly
2014-05-19T03:06:10Z Zhivago: And what's the type of that?
2014-05-19T03:06:20Z Zhivago: zrecursive: Utter twaddle.
2014-05-19T03:06:27Z ryuo: Zhivago: char *?
2014-05-19T03:06:41Z Zhivago: zrecursive: { int i = 2; i = i++; } <- what does this do in C? what does your generated assembly do?
2014-05-19T03:06:49Z ryuo: Oh god.
2014-05-19T03:06:54Z ryuo: That's undefined behavior I believe.
2014-05-19T03:06:54Z Zhivago: ryuo: No. A char * points at a char. What is the type of a[0]?
2014-05-19T03:06:59Z zRecursive: Zhivago: hehe
2014-05-19T03:07:40Z ryuo: "
2014-05-19T03:07:41Z zRecursive: Zhivago: not so hard by embedding { int i = 2; i = i++; } in a C file ?
2014-05-19T03:07:56Z ryuo: Zhivago: An array of type char? (4 elements but that can change)
2014-05-19T03:09:17Z Zhivago: zrecursive: And what will the assembly teach you about C?
2014-05-19T03:09:38Z Zhivago: ryuo: char[4] -- the type of &a[0] is then char (*)[4], which is what your function receives.
2014-05-19T03:10:26Z ryuo: But it converts to a char * pointing to 4 elements of type char?
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2014-05-19T03:11:14Z Zhivago: A char * doesn't point at a char[4] ...
2014-05-19T03:11:16Z zRecursive: Zhivago: From "leal 4(%esp), %ecx" i know it will put xxx address into %ecx ...
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2014-05-19T03:12:48Z Zhivago: zrecursive: So, what does that tell you about { int i = 2; i = i++; } in C?
2014-05-19T03:13:11Z Mueble quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2014-05-19T03:13:20Z zRecursive: "movl	$2, -8(%ebp)" and "addl	$1, -8(%ebp)" make it clean ?
2014-05-19T03:13:28Z ck_ joined #lisp
2014-05-19T03:13:35Z zRecursive: s/clean/clear
2014-05-19T03:13:57Z ryuo: zRecursive: The code example uses undefined behavior.
2014-05-19T03:14:21Z Zhivago: zrecursive: You didn't answer the question.
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2014-05-19T03:14:48Z Zhivago: Generally I find that people who try to understand C via asm are the most confused and hardest to correct.
2014-05-19T03:14:58Z zRecursive: anyway i always studied C by using assembly years ago :)
2014-05-19T03:15:34Z ryuo: Zhivago: ASM code usually doesn't resemble the C code much. The compiler can do a lot of things to do. Heavy optimizations and more...
2014-05-19T03:15:46Z ryuo: err to it
2014-05-19T03:16:03Z ryuo: Like if you divide by a constant, it may replace it with a multiplication optimization.
2014-05-19T03:16:20Z nisstyre: hmm, I was going to recommend Realm of Racket to Mueble if he liked Land of Lisp
2014-05-19T03:16:24Z nisstyre: but he left, oh well
2014-05-19T03:16:45Z nisstyre: I assume talking about Racket is on topic here if C is
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2014-05-19T03:17:40Z ryuo: Zhivago: Okay this is baffling to me... GCC warns if I try to pass an array of arrays to a char * argument. Is there any way to pass this type at all?
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2014-05-19T03:17:53Z ryuo: Zhivago: I'm guessing not directly at least...
2014-05-19T03:18:23Z ryuo: Zhivago: but yea, it converts it just as you said. char (*) [4]
2014-05-19T03:18:32Z pjb: ryuo: not in a standard way.
2014-05-19T03:18:50Z pjb: casting is always full of implementation specific side effects.
2014-05-19T03:19:12Z ryuo: If I had to guess, a struct wrapper may be one of the few ways.
2014-05-19T03:20:11Z ryuo: pjb: the only way I know of to pass a similar construct is to use an array of pointers...
2014-05-19T03:20:53Z ryuo: Still, I don't really understand what char (*) [4] means for sure.
2014-05-19T03:21:09Z ryuo: This is one area I never really touched on.
2014-05-19T03:21:38Z ryuo: A pointer to an array of 4 chars?
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2014-05-19T03:22:20Z ryuo: Hm.
2014-05-19T03:22:46Z nisstyre: ryuo: if you type "declare pointer to array of char" into the program cdecl, it tells you that C does not support that
2014-05-19T03:23:09Z nisstyre: arrays != pointers
2014-05-19T03:23:56Z ryuo: nisstyre: I guess the confusing part is how they can in many cases be converted just like that...
2014-05-19T03:24:22Z nisstyre: ryuo: think of it as a basic kind of polymorphism I guess
2014-05-19T03:24:42Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-05-19T03:24:46Z nisstyre: you can do some of the same operations on arrays as you can pointers
2014-05-19T03:24:52Z nisstyre: but that doesn't mean they're the same
2014-05-19T03:25:08Z nisstyre: the type system distinguishes them
2014-05-19T03:25:28Z ryuo: nisstyre: So this is why I can't pass char x[3][4] as char **?
2014-05-19T03:25:40Z ryuo: nisstyre: But I can pass char x[3] as char *?
2014-05-19T03:25:45Z nisstyre: those aren't the same types
2014-05-19T03:26:14Z ryuo: nisstyre: can you at least understand why it is confusing? They can be used in very similar ways.
2014-05-19T03:26:32Z ryuo facepalms.
2014-05-19T03:26:33Z nisstyre: ryuo: in many languages you can do "a" + "b" and 1 + 2
2014-05-19T03:26:38Z nisstyre: why isn't that just as confusing?
2014-05-19T03:27:06Z ryuo: Well.
2014-05-19T03:27:20Z nisstyre: you could conclude from that that strings are the same as numbers
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2014-05-19T03:29:05Z ryuo: nisstyre: What confused me was the seemingly seamless conversion...
2014-05-19T03:29:26Z ryuo: nisstyre: I could use them like an array in either context...
2014-05-19T03:30:01Z ryuo: nisstyre: But that assumption breaks down if I want to nest an array within itself.
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2014-05-19T03:30:46Z ryuo: nisstyre: I still have much to learn.
2014-05-19T03:31:05Z ryuo: Man I feel stupid.
2014-05-19T03:32:33Z ryuo: Interesting.
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2014-05-19T03:32:42Z nisstyre: ryuo: meh, I don't care that you were confused
2014-05-19T03:33:03Z ryuo: enclosing it within likeso: (*x)[4]...
2014-05-19T03:33:25Z ryuo: So the difference between **x and this is
2014-05-19T03:33:33Z ryuo: a pointer to a pointer vs a pointer to an array?
2014-05-19T03:33:45Z Zhivago: A pointer into an array vs. a pointer to an array.
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2014-05-19T03:34:04Z Zhivago: Well, actually, **x is gibberish, so I'm not sure what you mean, but I assume you meant something like that.
2014-05-19T03:34:18Z nisstyre: ryuo: the fundamental thing to realize is that in C the type "array" actually includes the fact that it is an aggregate of some amount of data
2014-05-19T03:34:31Z pjb:  /rename #lisp #c
2014-05-19T03:34:36Z nisstyre: pointers don't tell you that you can safely do pointer arithmetic on them
2014-05-19T03:35:35Z ryuo: I only recall one other place where I've had to consistently enclose pointers in ()s...
2014-05-19T03:35:39Z ryuo: function pointers.
2014-05-19T03:36:03Z zRecursive: pjb: i am glad to review C today. I have not used C for a long time though
2014-05-19T03:36:09Z ryuo: Zhivago: very enlightening. thank you.
2014-05-19T03:36:37Z ryuo: Zhivago: It never occurred to me that they were distinct concepts.
2014-05-19T03:37:00Z Zhivago: ryuo: Many C 'programmers' have a weak grasp of the language.
2014-05-19T03:37:16Z ryuo: Zhivago: so i've noticed...
2014-05-19T03:37:22Z ryuo: Zhivago: It's very complex.
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2014-05-19T03:37:47Z Zhivago: It's not particularly complex; it's mostly just mistaught. Anyhow, hopefully we can stop talking about it here.
2014-05-19T03:37:49Z zRecursive: ryuo: C is indeed not complex
2014-05-19T03:37:58Z ryuo: Zhivago: Agreed for now.
2014-05-19T03:38:49Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2014-05-19T03:39:08Z nydel quit (Quit: leaving)
2014-05-19T03:39:10Z zRecursive: Once stopped, what to talk about CL :)
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2014-05-19T03:39:25Z Zhivago: I suggest that you talk about multidimensional arrays, since CL actually has them.
2014-05-19T03:39:43Z pjb: sicl; Robert's making progress on it, that's good.
2014-05-19T03:40:12Z nisstyre: well, to actually be on topic, does CL have any good libraries for doing 3D graphics?
2014-05-19T03:40:32Z pjb: Or at least it had: 3D graphism was invented on Lisp Machines!
2014-05-19T03:40:35Z nisstyre: preferably something with a nice (but comprehensive) API?
2014-05-19T03:40:37Z ryuo: Zhivago: is CL's "bignum" / "bigint" support based off arbitrary precision? I've read about that from other languages.
2014-05-19T03:41:25Z Odin- quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2014-05-19T03:42:03Z zRecursive: Is #(#(1 2 3) #(4 5 6)) placing elements continuously in memory ?
2014-05-19T03:42:06Z Zhivago: CL doesn't have bigint -- it has an integer class with arbitrary range. bignum and fixnum are types that partition the intsances of this class and presumably correspond with implementation choices.
2014-05-19T03:42:37Z Zhivago: zrecursive: Continuously with respect to what operations?
2014-05-19T03:42:47Z zRecursive: index ?
2014-05-19T03:42:54Z Zhivago: Um, then sure ...
2014-05-19T03:43:05Z Zhivago: Since indexes are always continuous ...
2014-05-19T03:43:11Z pjb: 3 has no reason to be "near" 4.
2014-05-19T03:43:20Z pjb: or 6.
2014-05-19T03:43:36Z zRecursive: how about size ?
2014-05-19T03:43:44Z Zhivago: What about size?
2014-05-19T03:44:04Z zRecursive: sozeof ?
2014-05-19T03:44:07Z pjb: zRecursive: Why don't you go write some real program?
2014-05-19T03:44:12Z ryuo: ...
2014-05-19T03:44:20Z zRecursive: indeed
2014-05-19T03:44:25Z nisstyre: zRecursive: do you mean, should (vector-ref #(#(1 2 3) #(4 5 6)) 3) return 4?
2014-05-19T03:44:27Z ryuo: zRecursive: I doubt sizeof applies to lisp.
2014-05-19T03:44:32Z Zhivago: sozeof isn't a CL operator.
2014-05-19T03:44:34Z nisstyre: (not sure if CL uses vector-ref, Racket does)
2014-05-19T03:44:44Z zRecursive: aref
2014-05-19T03:44:59Z ryuo: zRecursive: It's mainly used in C for knowing the size of types for dynamic allocation.
2014-05-19T03:45:06Z ryuo: zRecursive: But it has other uses.
2014-05-19T03:45:13Z Zhivago: zrecursive: You need to ask meaningful questions. Think of the operators available in CL.
2014-05-19T03:45:14Z zRecursive: ok
2014-05-19T03:45:23Z pjb: ryuo: in CL, dynamic allocation is performed by type specific operators.
2014-05-19T03:45:42Z pjb: make-string, make-array, cons, make-<structure>, make-instance, make-list, etc.
2014-05-19T03:45:57Z pjb: So you don't have to worry about size.
2014-05-19T03:46:02Z ryuo: pjb: I figured as much.
2014-05-19T03:46:03Z pjb: Just about number of elements or slots.
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2014-05-19T03:46:35Z ryuo: pjb: I doubt dynamic typing has much use for that, but I could be wrong.
2014-05-19T03:46:41Z ryuo: pjb: (sizeof)
2014-05-19T03:47:13Z Zhivago: ryuo: Um, it's completely irrelevant to dynamic or static typing.
2014-05-19T03:47:23Z ryuo: Zhivago: Oh.
2014-05-19T03:47:23Z pjb: Irrelevant. You could do the same in C: write functions such as make_employee, make_string, make_pay_check, etc.
2014-05-19T03:47:40Z ryuo: Zhivago: I've mainly seen it used in static typed languages.
2014-05-19T03:47:43Z pjb: Then the rest of your program doesn't have to call sizeof.
2014-05-19T03:47:44Z Zhivago: ryuo: Such as?
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2014-05-19T03:48:32Z ryuo: Zhivago: C family mainly, but C++'s new usually does sizing for you...
2014-05-19T03:48:54Z ryuo: Hm...
2014-05-19T03:49:08Z Zhivago: ryuo: So, you're confusing 'static typed languages' with C?
2014-05-19T03:49:25Z ryuo: Zhivago: C isn't static typed?
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2014-05-19T03:49:40Z Zhivago: ryuo: The only reason that you think sizeof is used like that in C is because in C you allocate an underlying unsigned char array to store the representation.
2014-05-19T03:50:05Z Zhivago: ryuo: And that's not statically typed -- see 'effective type' in the standard.
2014-05-19T03:50:16Z Zhivago: So your reasoning and classification is pretty much entirely backward.
2014-05-19T03:50:50Z ryuo: Zhivago: So this explains how integers of different sizes and signedness can be mixed?
2014-05-19T03:51:28Z Zhivago: What the hell does sizeof have to do with that?
2014-05-19T03:51:50Z Zhivago: Go to ##c so that you can be unconfused; it looks to be an epic task.
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2014-05-19T04:03:42Z nightfly: What would be a good way to implement a threadsafe monotonically increasing integer id?
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2014-05-19T04:05:52Z Zhivago: System dependent.
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2014-05-19T04:08:57Z nightfly: makes sense. Thinking about it in this case I think I can just use vectors and vector-push to do what I want.
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2014-05-19T04:10:22Z Zhivago: Presuming that they are thread-safe on your implementation ...
2014-05-19T04:10:24Z pjb: What makes you think that vector-push is thread safe?
2014-05-19T04:10:41Z Zhivago: So, refer to your implementation about threads.
2014-05-19T04:10:49Z pjb: on all implementations?
2014-05-19T04:12:22Z Zhivago: Sure, since CL doesn't specify threads. Or look for some thread abstraction library that covers all implementations you care about.
2014-05-19T04:13:25Z nightfly: yeah... I guess I just assumed that it would be insane to implement vector-push in a non thread-safe manner
2014-05-19T04:13:56Z pjb: It would be the most natural thing to do on the contrary.
2014-05-19T04:14:09Z pjb: Just use bt:with-lock-held.
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2014-05-19T05:17:39Z loke: nightfly: Like pbjb said, the opposite make smore sense. Look at Java, in version 1.1 they had the Vector class which was thread-safe. Then they realised how silly that was, and implemneted the replacement ArrayList which is not thread-safe
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2014-05-19T05:21:15Z Zhivago: Well, pervasive undefined behaviour isn't particularly sensible, either.
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2014-05-19T05:40:24Z loke: Zhivago: I'm not denying that. But I do not intend to argue against you r point because I believe we both fully understand the issues. :-)
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2014-05-19T05:43:00Z Zhivago: Optimistic.
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2014-05-19T07:51:40Z mrSpec: Hello! Does anyone use closure-html lib with lispworks? I'm getting "Undefined function make-dtd-lexer" when trying to load it
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2014-05-19T08:39:39Z protist: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142609
2014-05-19T08:39:49Z protist: heroku problem ^
2014-05-19T08:40:05Z protist: says i need to set CL_IMPL....but it is set
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2014-05-19T10:13:17Z diginet: so I was reading up on Haskell lately, and I'm struggling to see any advantage whatosever over Lisp
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2014-05-19T10:13:40Z diginet: but I feel like maybe it's because I don't understand the problems it purports to solve
2014-05-19T10:14:02Z H4ns: haskell is off topic here.  maybe try #haskell
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2014-05-19T10:14:14Z diginet: H4ns: I meant as compared to lisp but okay
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2014-05-19T10:16:47Z loke: diginet: You can see Haskell as an experiment. Consider Lisp, but remove all mutating functions and make all evaluation lazy.
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2014-05-19T10:17:27Z loke: diginet: Oh, and make all typing static. Hmm... Now that I think about it, just about the only thing it has in common with Lisp is that they both hafe first-class functions.
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2014-05-19T10:19:56Z diginet: well like, I guess. . .I just don't see what on earth the point is in type inference
2014-05-19T10:20:07Z diginet: it seems like a ton of work to save a tiny bit of typing
2014-05-19T10:20:24Z diginet: (typing as in writing)
2014-05-19T10:20:42Z H4ns: diginet: really, over in #haskell you'll find more people willing to describe the advantages of static typing at length.
2014-05-19T10:20:53Z diginet: H4ns: not static typing
2014-05-19T10:21:00Z diginet: I understand the point of static typing perfectly
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2014-05-19T10:21:11Z diginet: what I don't understand is type inference, or rather, what the point of it is
2014-05-19T10:21:40Z loke: diginet: Well, Hans is right in that none of use are any good at explaining the benefits. :-)  We all use Lisp, after all.
2014-05-19T10:21:47Z diginet: true true
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2014-05-19T10:22:14Z diginet: I guess I just asked here because Haskell users are necessarily biased towards it
2014-05-19T10:22:37Z diginet: what is weird is that #haskell has like 3 times the users that this one does, and yet, I see much much more Lisp code than I do Haskell
2014-05-19T10:22:39Z H4ns: diginet: see, i don't even understand enough of it to tell you something :)
2014-05-19T10:22:48Z diginet: H4ns: no problem :)
2014-05-19T10:22:54Z H4ns: diginet: for fun, have them explain monads.
2014-05-19T10:23:04Z ggole: It makes programs shorter and clearer, and occasionally more general.
2014-05-19T10:23:13Z ggole: Doesn't really seem like much of a mystery why people like it.
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2014-05-19T10:23:38Z loke: diginet: And Lisp users are biased against that. That said, I do a lot of Java too, and I kind of like the rather strong typing it has. Strong typing, however, demands a much more strict up-front design. Lisp encourages a more "liquid" development style, which, coupled with the REPL and the ability to develop in an active image without restart is a benefit static languages really can't enjoy.
2014-05-19T10:23:40Z diginet: ggole: does it though? I mean, I find type declarations really helpful when I'm programming, in say, ada
2014-05-19T10:24:04Z diginet: loke: the static vs dynamic argument isn't my question though
2014-05-19T10:24:12Z diginet: static and dynamic both have a purpose
2014-05-19T10:24:25Z ggole: You can have annotations if you want
2014-05-19T10:24:34Z ggole: It's putting them on every damn variable that's a chore
2014-05-19T10:24:38Z diginet: what I am confused is, why go to the trouble to infer types when it takes barely any time to just type them out
2014-05-19T10:24:48Z H4ns: diginet: i completely disagree
2014-05-19T10:25:01Z diginet: really? I guess that's just personal
2014-05-19T10:25:06Z H4ns: diginet: having to type out every type of everything is annoying as hell.
2014-05-19T10:25:08Z loke: diginet: Have you tried writing Java without a string IDE like IDEA lately?
2014-05-19T10:25:16Z H4ns: diginet: it also makes reading and refactoring code harder
2014-05-19T10:25:17Z diginet: loke: never used Java lol
2014-05-19T10:25:22Z loke: diginet: The only reason Java is bearable is because the IDE does the type inference for you.
2014-05-19T10:25:36Z ggole: You might also find this interesting https://www.usenix.org/legacy/publications/library/proceedings/vhll/full_papers/koenig.a
2014-05-19T10:25:38Z diginet: H4ns: I don't get the reading part? I guess it just comes down to preference
2014-05-19T10:25:48Z diginet: ggole: thanks
2014-05-19T10:26:01Z H4ns: diginet: to me, type inference is a compiler courtesy.  if the damn thing insists on knowing all types upfront anyway, it can as well use that knowledge to help me.
2014-05-19T10:26:23Z diginet: yeah
2014-05-19T10:26:29Z H4ns: diginet: the reading part is that "auto" reads much faster than "HashMap<MyAwesomeClass*>"
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2014-05-19T10:26:55Z diginet: fair enough
2014-05-19T10:27:46Z ggole: Haskell types tend to get interesting enough that the difference is considerable, too
2014-05-19T10:28:46Z H4ns: see, and if the #haskell friends fail to explain that difference, then i can only infer that the language is to hard to use for actual people.
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2014-05-19T10:30:29Z diginet: it's hard for me to articulate why exactly, but I find haskell users to be, ehm, trying to my patience
2014-05-19T10:30:33Z pjb: diginet: type consistency must be ensured for a correct program.
2014-05-19T10:30:45Z pjb: diginet: in lisp, type consistency is verified at run-time.
2014-05-19T10:31:19Z pjb: in haskell, the compiler tries to verify it at compilation time (and it's successful for 90% of it); it still has to add some type checking at run-time.
2014-05-19T10:31:41Z diginet: pjb: I know that, I just had always assumed type inference did "more" than simply save some writing out of code
2014-05-19T10:32:05Z ggole: What type checking does Haskell do at runtime? Dispatch on ADT tags?
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2014-05-19T10:35:53Z Adeon: IIRC there is a flag in the ghc compiler that allows you to defer type errors to run-time
2014-05-19T10:35:59Z Adeon: but I don't know who uses that
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2014-05-19T10:39:01Z mega1: my guess is compiler writers
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2014-05-19T10:39:59Z puchacz: hi, when searching for href attribute, do you use equal or equalp?
2014-05-19T10:40:16Z puchacz: according to specs, attribute names are case sensitive and this is how cxml-dom is implemented
2014-05-19T10:40:19Z pjb: equalp
2014-05-19T10:40:30Z puchacz: but browsers use equalp !
2014-05-19T10:40:53Z puchacz: pjb: so you dont use dom:get-attribute-node, do you?
2014-05-19T10:41:00Z puchacz: you search yourself?
2014-05-19T10:41:28Z pjb: Well, I was thinking about HTML and in HTML, it's case insensitive.
2014-05-19T10:42:11Z puchacz: pjb: ok - and which interface do you use to process parsed html? lhtml? or dom like?
2014-05-19T10:42:40Z pjb: Last time I did, there was nothing, so I wrote my own parser.   It was a long time ago.
2014-05-19T10:42:49Z loke uses closure-html
2014-05-19T10:42:50Z puchacz: pjb: ok, thx
2014-05-19T10:47:56Z puchacz: loke - me too, but having parsed the thing, you still have to represent it as a tree of objects, nested lists etc.
2014-05-19T10:48:49Z loke: puchacz: I don't. I just use XPath on the DOM tree
2014-05-19T10:49:23Z puchacz: loke: dom tree, you mean cxml's dom implementation? and xpath, which library?
2014-05-19T10:50:47Z loke: puchacz: Yes
2014-05-19T10:51:08Z loke: I use closure-html to load into a CXML DOM tree, and use XPath on that DOM tree
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2014-05-19T10:51:33Z puchacz: diginet: for what it is worth, I tried to read a couple of books on haskell and I checked common lisp implementations of monads, but - very personally - lisp ecosystem (including libraries and slime) feels much more pragmatic to me.
2014-05-19T10:52:02Z puchacz: I don't think I could easily change my mindset to give up on modifiable lists or lists of any objects
2014-05-19T10:52:04Z diginet: puchacz: the thing that bothers me is that computers are intrinsically stateful, I don't like languages that lie to me.
2014-05-19T10:52:21Z puchacz: I tried, I did not make a switch
2014-05-19T10:54:40Z puchacz: loke: this? http://common-lisp.net/project/plexippus-xpath/
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2014-05-19T10:55:58Z loke: Yep
2014-05-19T10:56:03Z puchacz: thx
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2014-05-19T10:56:59Z loke: puchacz: Here is some code I wrote that uses it: https://github.com/lokedhs/gnus-outlook-style/blob/master/format-html-email/format.lisp#L251
2014-05-19T10:57:12Z puchacz: loke: thanks, looking
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2014-05-19T10:58:59Z Zhivago: diginet: That's a silly thing to be bothered about.
2014-05-19T10:59:35Z Zhivago: diginet: Your code operates in a virtual machine defined by the language, not in some random piece of hardware -- and this applies just as much to C as it does to CL.
2014-05-19T10:59:42Z Zhivago: (or haskell)
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2014-05-19T10:59:56Z nyef: Even assembly language tends to be a lie.
2014-05-19T11:00:01Z puchacz: diginet: what bothered me was that the examples in haskell felt trivial. how about big codebase with some buggy libraries that you are bound to encounter in real world?
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2014-05-19T11:00:14Z diginet: puchacz: that and the posturing
2014-05-19T11:00:27Z diginet: "Haskell ensure you can write bug free code!" or osmething like that
2014-05-19T11:00:43Z Zhivago: Well, you get retarded fanboys in every language.
2014-05-19T11:00:54Z diginet: Zhivago: I just don't like the idea of having to dance around performing IO so you can tick the "pure" box in the feature list
2014-05-19T11:00:54Z Zhivago: Just look at the slobbering over obsolete lisp machines.
2014-05-19T11:01:14Z Zhivago: diginet: Don't they have monads to do that dancing about for you?
2014-05-19T11:01:17Z diginet: Zhivago: true, BUT, Haskell seems to have a particularly huge supply
2014-05-19T11:01:22Z diginet: Zhivago: that's the point
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2014-05-19T11:02:01Z puchacz: ok, continuing advocacy :-) I don't feel CL is the ultimate language ever, but for what I know it seems to be most pragmatic solution for now
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2014-05-19T11:03:54Z puchacz: scripting languages with 20x slower execution by design and clumsy, add hoc semantics are no match, java and friends feels at least professionally designed for big tasks but it is unnecessarily constraining, and experimental languages do not have ecosystem of tools and libraries.
2014-05-19T11:03:57Z pjb: diginet: But the statefulness of computers and the physical universe is only an illusion implemented over a stateless mathematical model.  Lambda Calculus is stateless.
2014-05-19T11:05:22Z puchacz: so I am sticking with CL when I have a choice, thank you very much :-)
2014-05-19T11:05:26Z diginet: pjb: sure, but say I wanted to write an OS. There is this trend that seems to be pushing functional as "TheOneTrueParadigm." An OS is fundamentally about managing resources, and IMO, doing that in something like Haskell would be a mess
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2014-05-19T11:06:09Z Zhivago: Well, the mess would probably be mostly due to garbage collection rather than anything else.
2014-05-19T11:07:46Z diginet: sure, but even still
2014-05-19T11:07:52Z diginet: or take something like a video game?
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2014-05-19T11:08:06Z pjb: diginet: 1- current computers have a lot of resources, unless you're Google or Watson.  2- avoiding mutation is essentially what SSD drives do, under the hood: when you write a sector, it actually stores the new version in a virgin place!  So both at the OS and hardware level, you can have some level of mutation-free, purely functional working.
2014-05-19T11:08:09Z puchacz: never seen a video game in Lisp :-)
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2014-05-19T11:08:50Z pjb: puchacz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9duLa-mixQ
2014-05-19T11:09:00Z diginet: pjb: I don't like the "computers are fast now, so don't bother worrying about CPU or RAM" argument. Yeah, it doesn't matter if you're doing it once. If you're doing it 100 times, then it starts to
2014-05-19T11:09:10Z diginet: Plus, that's to say nothing of embedded systems
2014-05-19T11:09:32Z diginet: obviously you COULD do it in Haskell, but games are intrinsically stateful, it seems extremely unituitive to shoehorn that model in
2014-05-19T11:09:37Z pjb: WHouah !  Look how fast he spins!  Garbage collection is fast!
2014-05-19T11:10:12Z puchacz: :-)
2014-05-19T11:10:21Z puchacz: what's lisp and what runtime is it? allegro?
2014-05-19T11:10:53Z pjb: diginet: you didn't understand.  The capacity means that you can manage it differently.  You can fill the memory for days, before needing a garbage collection.  This is what they did with LispMachine already in the 80's, rebooting only once a day or once a week (with no garbage collector running).
2014-05-19T11:11:17Z pjb: puchacz: perhaps.  Read the articles.
2014-05-19T11:11:19Z diginet: pjb: eugh
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2014-05-19T11:12:44Z H4ns: diginet: current operating systems carry a lot of baggage and concepts that have their very roots in the restrictions of old computers.  for example, paged dynamic memory is mostly useless today, but today's systems still revolve around it.
2014-05-19T11:12:52Z pjb: diginet: another example, is how EROS has no I/O primitives, but instead has a persistent layer for all objectsin memory, which leads to faster I/O than unix, because now I/O are all sequential, be it in the log file or in the data partition.
2014-05-19T11:13:20Z diginet: pjb: that's true
2014-05-19T11:13:35Z Zhivago: Um, what is useless about paged dynamic memory?
2014-05-19T11:14:01Z H4ns: Zhivago: today, you don't have to page because main memory is no longer a scarce resource.
2014-05-19T11:15:03Z Zhivago: Hmm, so, how would you implement shared libraries, today?
2014-05-19T11:15:15Z pjb: swap is almost not used anymore.  And if it was, it would be catastrophic given that nowadays the difference between HD and RAM is on the order of the million, while it was only on the order of hundred when swapping was invented.
2014-05-19T11:15:51Z pjb: Zhivago: some systems don't have shared libraries at all, eg. iOS!
2014-05-19T11:15:56Z H4ns: Zhivago: in a modern system, you'd map the shared library to the same address for all processes, because adress space also is no longe a scarce resource.
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2014-05-19T11:17:01Z loke: All processes would have unique address mappings too
2014-05-19T11:17:02Z H4ns: Zhivago: all i'm saying is that much of our current mainstream operating system designs have their roots in the restrictions of previous-generation hardware systems.
2014-05-19T11:17:05Z Zhivago: pjb: Yes, but iOS is pretty crap.
2014-05-19T11:17:13Z p_l|backup: .... iOS is full of shared libs
2014-05-19T11:17:31Z pjb: They already do that for 1/4 of the VM addressing space  in 32-bit linux to map the kernel in each process.
2014-05-19T11:17:50Z pjb: p_l|backup: yes, but only from Apple.
2014-05-19T11:17:52Z p_l|backup: the fact that you can't distribute your own for other apps to use is part of application separation, not lack of shared libraries
2014-05-19T11:18:03Z pjb: As a developer, you can only provide static libraries to be used by applications.
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2014-05-19T12:41:14Z puchacz: guys, whoever is using cxml-dom as a target for closure html
2014-05-19T12:41:22Z puchacz: it seems that to add an attribute I need to do this: (dom:set-attribute-ns node (dom:namespace-uri node) "target" "_top")
2014-05-19T12:41:26Z puchacz: namespace!
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2014-05-19T12:41:50Z puchacz: because default implementation for set-attribute (without ns) leaves local-name nil
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2014-05-19T12:42:09Z puchacz: strange
2014-05-19T12:42:36Z puchacz: and of course local-name = nil trips up serializer, which is in my case (chtml:make-string-sink)
2014-05-19T12:42:58Z puchacz: must be chtml, because using something from cxml packages somehow corrupts html subtly
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2014-05-19T15:12:46Z nightshade427_: humm .. uiop:run-program :output  '(:string :element- type (unsigned-byte 8)), doesn't seem to work as per docs. looking at code it seems to only take keywords :stripped not : stripped and :element- type as stated in docs. Am I missing something?
2014-05-19T15:14:48Z splittist: nightshade427_: does your version of the code correspond to the version of the docs you're reading?
2014-05-19T15:14:56Z Bike: shouldn't it be :element-type whatever?
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2014-05-19T15:16:31Z nightshade427_: yeah, my irc client put a space between them :( im using _:element- type.
2014-05-19T15:16:46Z nightshade427_: https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/master/uiop/run-program.lisp#L191
2014-05-19T15:17:21Z nightshade427_: doesn't take the keyword param :element-type it doesn't look like
2014-05-19T15:17:47Z nightshade427_: but http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Some-Utility-Functions.html#Some-Utility-Functions says it does, any way to do so?
2014-05-19T15:18:08Z splittist: nightshade427_: should all the stuff after :output be in a list?
2014-05-19T15:18:23Z nightshade427_: according to docs yes
2014-05-19T15:18:29Z Bike: wrong line
2014-05-19T15:18:39Z Bike: https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/master/uiop/run-program.lisp#L821
2014-05-19T15:19:00Z nightshade427_: And using :output '(:string :stripped t) will have it return the same string stripped of any ending newline.
2014-05-19T15:19:51Z nightshade427_: If the object is 'string or :string, the content is captured into a string. Accepted keywords include the element-type and a flag stripped, which when true causes any single line ending to be removed as per uiop:stripln.
2014-05-19T15:20:12Z nightshade427_: Bike , that will do it for both input and output
2014-05-19T15:20:21Z nightshade427_: I want it just for output
2014-05-19T15:20:23Z splittist: nightshade427_: yes, reading. What does a string with element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) mean, anyway?
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2014-05-19T15:22:34Z nightshade427_: it looks like it should copy output of command to binary array
2014-05-19T15:22:36Z nightshade427_: https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/c81e119366741cf0294d498eb7a6781c813d804d/uiop/stream.lisp#L370
2014-05-19T15:22:41Z nightshade427_: which is what I want
2014-05-19T15:22:51Z nightshade427_: but code doesn't seem to match docs :(
2014-05-19T15:23:17Z Bike: well i mean, ub8 isn't a character, so that's not a string.
2014-05-19T15:23:25Z nightshade427_: right
2014-05-19T15:23:31Z nightshade427_: just binary array
2014-05-19T15:23:36Z nightshade427_: which is what I want
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2014-05-19T15:23:57Z splittist: you mean a stream of bytes?
2014-05-19T15:24:07Z Bike: so e.g. with-output-to-string isn't gonna work...
2014-05-19T15:24:54Z nightshade427_: according to docs to do so I would do :output '(:string :element-type (unsigned-byte 8)), strange I know but that's how asdf seems to want it according to docs
2014-05-19T15:25:15Z nightshade427_: but docs don't align with code
2014-05-19T15:25:25Z nightshade427_: maybe I'll just patch code locally
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2014-05-19T15:26:13Z nightshade427_: Bike, yes it will, but then I'm duplicating https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/c81e119366741cf0294d498eb7a6781c813d804d/uiop/stream.lisp#L370
2014-05-19T15:26:34Z nightshade427_: why not just have it forward the params like doc says?
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2014-05-19T15:27:57Z nightshade427_: https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/master/uiop/run-program.lisp#L191 should accept :element-type key and forward along, right?
2014-05-19T15:31:22Z Fare: unsigned-byte 8 is not a valid string type
2014-05-19T15:31:36Z splittist: nightshade427_: the stuff after :output gets forwarded (eventually) to slurp-input-stream; the :element-type keyword to run-program itself is passed through to the implementation.
2014-05-19T15:31:36Z Fare: that said, if you want to support byte arrays... patches welcome
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2014-05-19T15:32:07Z drewc: or use flexi-streams?
2014-05-19T15:32:09Z Fare: nightshade427_, the docs might also be slightly out of date
2014-05-19T15:32:17Z stassats: sbcl gives you bivalent streams if you use the :default external-format
2014-05-19T15:32:19Z Fare: what are you trying to do?
2014-05-19T15:32:23Z drewc: or bivalent
2014-05-19T15:32:35Z stassats: otherwise, you can't use (unsigned-byte 8) in sb-ext:run-program
2014-05-19T15:34:03Z nightshade427_: if I pass :element-type (unsigned-byte 8) to https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/c81e119366741cf0294d498eb7a6781c813d804d/uiop/stream.lisp#L370 what would happen?
2014-05-19T15:34:31Z stassats: caboom
2014-05-19T15:34:37Z Fare: You need to implement a slurp-stream-bytes
2014-05-19T15:34:54Z Fare: and a method on slurp-input-stream for :bytes
2014-05-19T15:35:40Z Fare: nightshade427_, unsigned-byte is no valid string character type
2014-05-19T15:36:07Z stassats: now, what would happen if you pass it NIL?
2014-05-19T15:36:22Z Fare: want you want can be implemented in a handful of functions on top of uiop/run-program, but isn't included in it (yet)
2014-05-19T15:36:38Z Fare: stassats: probably a different caboom.
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2014-05-19T15:36:56Z stassats: (with-output-to-string  (var nil  :element-type nil)) => ""
2014-05-19T15:37:26Z Fare: stassats, ok as you don't actually output anything, I suppose — at least, on SBCL. Allegro will caboom.
2014-05-19T15:37:58Z nightshade427_: Fare, so I have a command that takes utf8 input, does some processing, and outputs to stdout binary. What would be best way to use this command via uiop:run-program?
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2014-05-19T15:38:43Z Fare: oh, if the input and output are different types, I fear uiop:run-program isn't geared to do that portably (yet), since most implementations won't let you do that
2014-05-19T15:38:58Z Fare: BUT, if you use :default, that may work on SBCL
2014-05-19T15:39:06Z Fare: and other similar implementations
2014-05-19T15:39:16Z stassats: the one thing that will work, writing to a file and using it as input
2014-05-19T15:40:00Z Fare: yes, doing that explicitly is portable
2014-05-19T15:40:25Z stassats: though, i'm not quite sure anymore
2014-05-19T15:41:20Z Fare: another portable option might be iolib
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2014-05-19T15:41:25Z Fare: at least, portable to unix
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2014-05-19T15:42:59Z stassats: using a file as input may not work on some exotic platforms, if it needs to read from that file and feed it to stdin
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2014-05-19T15:43:29Z Fare: uiop:run-program knows about redirection from file and to file, so that will actually work
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2014-05-19T15:44:01Z stassats: but does the implementation implements it using the underlying OS functionality?
2014-05-19T15:44:10Z Fare: not sure what you mean
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2014-05-19T15:44:44Z stassats: on linux, you can set stdin to a file handle, but suppose you can't do that somewhere?
2014-05-19T15:44:48Z Fare: are you thinking of any actual implementation / platform combination?
2014-05-19T15:45:03Z Fare: uiop:run-program knows about *stdin*
2014-05-19T15:45:04Z stassats: no
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2014-05-19T15:45:30Z Fare: and *stdin* != *standard-input*, obviously
2014-05-19T15:45:49Z stassats: does it set stdin to the right thing after forking?
2014-05-19T15:46:10Z Fare: I believe it does
2014-05-19T15:46:23Z nightshade427_: yeah, I was hoping to use all streams and not need files at all. stassats, I'm using sbcl, so sbcl can do differing input/output types?
2014-05-19T15:46:35Z stassats: nightshade427_: nope
2014-05-19T15:46:50Z nightshade427_: dang :(
2014-05-19T15:47:16Z Fare: nightshade427_, note that because it doesn't use threads, uiop:run-program actually uses temporary files underneath when you redirect more than one stream.
2014-05-19T15:47:17Z stassats: there's even a ticket
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2014-05-19T15:48:13Z Fare: but at least, it abstracts over that detail, and a thread-aware implementation could conceivably do better some day
2014-05-19T15:48:15Z stassats: or no, it's for something similar
2014-05-19T15:48:46Z stassats: anyway, it's trivial to add both element-type and external-format for run-program
2014-05-19T15:49:16Z nightshade427_: if I wrap my command in another command that takes and returns binary would that work?
2014-05-19T15:49:35Z stassats: sbcl uses temporary files too, for things like feeding lisp streams
2014-05-19T15:49:40Z nightshade427_: the other command is python, do would be easy to tweak if needed
2014-05-19T15:50:07Z nightshade427_: do = so
2014-05-19T15:50:50Z stassats: well, in reality, all the output programs perform are binary
2014-05-19T15:51:00Z stassats: so, you mean, it would do so in a different encoding?
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2014-05-19T15:54:18Z nightshade427_: (run-program `("command", "args", " args") :input in :output out :element-type (unsigned-byte 8))))
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2014-05-19T15:54:33Z nightshade427_: is what I'm gonna try next, is what I meant
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2014-05-19T15:56:58Z stassats: except that :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) doesn't work?
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2014-05-19T15:59:51Z nightshade427_: not sure of it will work if I specify globally like this vs as part of output spec
2014-05-19T15:59:59Z nightshade427_: trying now
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2014-05-19T16:09:50Z Fare: nightshade427_, what are in and out ?
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2014-05-19T16:11:24Z nightshade427_: with-input-from-string, etc, probably won't work
2014-05-19T16:11:29Z nightshade427_: yeah didn't work
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2014-05-19T16:13:47Z splittist: nightshade427_: writing to a file, running the external program with redirection, and slurping the input sounds like a fine solution, and much more debuggable.
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2014-05-19T16:13:48Z nightshade427_: may just use a fun as param to output to get stream, then read from it into byte array?
2014-05-19T16:14:04Z nightshade427_: fun = function
2014-05-19T16:14:13Z dim: (let ((out (make-string-output-stream))) (run-program ...))
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2014-05-19T16:14:28Z dim: then you can use (get-output-stream-string out) to get the contents
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2014-05-19T16:15:01Z dim: nightshade427_: see also https://github.com/renard/fancy-command
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2014-05-19T16:15:21Z nightshade427_: will that work with binary zipfile data
2014-05-19T16:15:39Z nightshade427_: that's what command outputs
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2014-05-19T16:16:01Z stassats: dim: what you shown is... with-input-from-string
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2014-05-19T16:16:07Z stassats: s/output//
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2014-05-19T16:16:31Z stassats: s/input/output/
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2014-05-19T16:16:43Z dim: yeah right, but in the example I had around I'm also using make-broadcast-stream so that the main stream isn't closed
2014-05-19T16:17:00Z dim: and I also sometimes (verbose) broadcast to both a file and standard-output
2014-05-19T16:17:04Z dim: so yeah, but yeah
2014-05-19T16:18:21Z stassats: i still don't see how that disqualifies with-output-to-string
2014-05-19T16:18:40Z nightshade427_: here's my issue, I want to run a command that takes on stdin string, it outputs zipfile binary data
2014-05-19T16:18:55Z nightshade427_: stdout
2014-05-19T16:18:59Z dim: stassats: actually it doesnt with what I just said, right
2014-05-19T16:19:08Z stassats: unless you want to break out the stream out of its dynamic extent
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2014-05-19T16:33:41Z Xach: Hmm, I'm looking at some code that uses parenscript's @ as a lisp function, but it doesn't seem to work like that now. Do you know if it used to be a Lisp function for some kind of useful conversion?
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2014-05-19T16:34:11Z stassats: botched ,@?
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2014-05-19T16:35:02Z Xach: I don't think so, in this case.
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2014-05-19T16:35:58Z stassats: incidentally, sbcl on arm uses @ as a function, and slime is too dumb to show the arglist
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2014-05-19T16:38:15Z stassats: "The convenience macro @ quotes all its given symbol slot-specifiers to save typing:"
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2014-05-19T16:39:28Z splittist thinks he has diagnosed Lucid's problem: using an Australian to make the demo video...
2014-05-19T16:39:33Z Xach: Booooo
2014-05-19T16:40:55Z stassats: Xach: (ps (@ an-object foo bar)) => "anObject.foo.bar;"
2014-05-19T16:41:22Z stassats: maybe your code forgets PS or some analogue?
2014-05-19T16:42:09Z nyef: go
2014-05-19T16:42:14Z nyef: Oops. Wrong window.
2014-05-19T16:42:18Z Xach: stassats: It's used multiple times, consistently, which makes me wonder if this is a model that parenscript used to offer but no longer does.
2014-05-19T16:43:53Z Odin- growls at the madness that is URIs.
2014-05-19T16:45:04Z jasom: Xach: can you show me an example?
2014-05-19T16:45:22Z Odin-: The only sane way to look at percent-decoded URIs is a bag 'o bytes. C derived thinking for the win, yay!
2014-05-19T16:45:42Z stassats: latin-1!
2014-05-19T16:45:48Z jasom: Xach: @ in any other package will translate to javascript identifier "at" so (cl-user:@ foo bar) at(foo,bar)
2014-05-19T16:46:15Z stassats: is it exported from cl-user? i hope not
2014-05-19T16:46:28Z jasom: stassats: sorry, forgot the 2nd colon
2014-05-19T16:46:35Z Xach: jasom: (log:debug "mapping doc: ~A" (@ (second input) :|_id|))
2014-05-19T16:46:48Z Xach: It is definitely parenscript's @.
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2014-05-19T16:47:31Z Xach checks the date on the code
2014-05-19T16:48:08Z jasom: hmm, looks like they are trying for input[1]._id
2014-05-19T16:48:35Z stassats: jasom: and it's a strange way to do it, just AT would work, wouldn't it?
2014-05-19T16:48:46Z jasom: stassats: yes
2014-05-19T16:48:56Z Odin-: stassats: Latin-1 and UTF-8 play merry hell with each other.
2014-05-19T16:49:17Z stassats: Odin-: but you can encode any sequence of bytes into latin-1
2014-05-19T16:50:07Z Odin-: stassats: Yes, but then I'm still treating it as a bag of bytes, not a character string.
2014-05-19T16:50:16Z jasom: Xach: second(input)._id is what that will emit
2014-05-19T16:50:34Z Xach: jasom: Will it? For me, parenscript:@ does not name a function.
2014-05-19T16:50:42Z stassats: that's probably not intended
2014-05-19T16:50:56Z stassats: (second input) looks like lisp code, second(input) doesn't look like js
2014-05-19T16:51:00Z Odin-: Automatic translation of percent-encoding into latin-1 looks ... fun when you go to places like the Russian Wikipedia.
2014-05-19T16:51:35Z stassats: you can translate it into lisp characters, can't you?
2014-05-19T16:51:42Z stassats: unless you are over the limit
2014-05-19T16:51:44Z stassats: clhs c-c-l
2014-05-19T16:51:44Z specbot: char-code-limit: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_char_c.htm
2014-05-19T16:52:30Z stassats: you can check too, fall back to whatnary when char-code returns NIL or the code-point is over char-code-limit
2014-05-19T16:52:33Z jasom: I would believe that at some point parenscript expanded (second x) to x[1].  It currently does that with elt so:  (ps (@ (elt x 1) y)) =? "x[1].y;"
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2014-05-19T16:53:02Z Xach: This is not wrapped in a (ps ...)
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2014-05-19T16:53:54Z jasom: oh, I missed that part
2014-05-19T16:54:03Z Odin-: stassats: If I can safely assume that it's _all_ UTF-8 encoded, which is not safe for general handling.
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2014-05-19T16:54:11Z stassats: define safe
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2014-05-19T16:54:34Z Odin-: stassats: Looking at various "URL parsing" libraries, this is a complication that seems to be simply ignored, rather than dealt with.
2014-05-19T16:55:07Z stassats: checking char-code-limit and the return value of code-char is safe
2014-05-19T16:55:21Z Odin-: stassats: I can't produce a percent-decoded character string, because there can be percent-encoded octets that are illegal UTF-8.
2014-05-19T16:55:49Z stassats: percent encoded strings are not using utf-8, are they? they specify code-points
2014-05-19T16:55:52Z jasom: Odin- decoding via code-char won't decode as utf-8, it will decode as latin-1 on most implementations
2014-05-19T16:56:08Z Odin-: stassats: No, they specify _octets_.
2014-05-19T16:56:13Z jasom: stassats: percent encoded strings are using octets.  That's all the URI specification defines
2014-05-19T16:56:13Z stassats: code-char takes unicode code-points
2014-05-19T16:56:43Z nyef: code-char takes mostly-arbitrary implementation-specified code-points, which tend to be unicode on most modern Lisps.
2014-05-19T16:56:50Z stassats: Odin-: well, you can always validate for utf-8
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2014-05-19T16:57:23Z jasom: and 0-255 code points are latin-1 (for some definitions of latin-1)
2014-05-19T16:57:54Z jasom: so if you decode octets with code-char, on most implementations that's essentially identical to decoding as latin-1.
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2014-05-19T16:59:13Z oGMo: well, what do you want, it's not like UTF-8 had been around for nearly 10 years by the time URIs were standardized
2014-05-19T17:00:38Z jasom: rfc 3986 recommends utf-8 for translating unicode to URI
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2014-05-19T17:00:55Z jasom: but http specifies rfc 2396 for URIs, and it's only a recommendation, not a requirement.
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2014-05-19T17:01:02Z Odin-: RFC3987 mandates it. And that's what I'm playing with.
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2014-05-19T17:01:53Z stassats: convert into ub8, check for valid utf8 bytes, then convert to whichever encoding
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2014-05-19T17:02:25Z Odin-: Yeah. I'm sorry for mentioning this, actually. I was griping, not looking for a solution. :)
2014-05-19T17:02:38Z PuercoPop: Oi how do I write the typespec for a list of keywords?
2014-05-19T17:02:49Z stassats: you don't
2014-05-19T17:03:14Z jasom: Odin-: in some places it says "may" other places "should" and one other place "must"
2014-05-19T17:03:21Z splittist: So a URI is a mapping from some of ASCII to octets, the meaning of which is given by something else. And there is a mapping from IRI's to URI's? Yay.
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2014-05-19T17:03:49Z jasom: Odin-: the must is only for "registered names"
2014-05-19T17:04:15Z Odin-: jasom: You did notice that I was talking about 3987, rather than 3986, right?
2014-05-19T17:04:29Z jasom: oh, those are IRIs
2014-05-19T17:04:32Z jasom: I didn't see that
2014-05-19T17:04:37Z Odin-: The IRI-to-URI transform is defined in terms of UTF-8.
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2014-05-19T17:12:59Z Odin-: splittist: The IRI-to-URI mapping is fairly simple; it's URI-to-IRI that gets complicated because of the way percent-encoding allows you to include arbitrary octets.
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2014-05-19T18:27:27Z whartung: so I was reading this
2014-05-19T18:27:28Z whartung: http://www.dawnofthedata.com/2014/05/abusing-langauge-features-common-lisp.html
2014-05-19T18:27:32Z whartung: and this line caught my eye
2014-05-19T18:27:42Z whartung: "As an interesting aside, we can actually use lisp's pipe ('|') notation to work around both of these limitations"
2014-05-19T18:28:02Z whartung: I'm not familiar with "lisp's pipe notation". Does that ring any bells?
2014-05-19T18:28:53Z ggole: It's a way to escape certain characters in symbols.
2014-05-19T18:29:04Z whartung: ahb okj
2014-05-19T18:29:05Z whartung: ah ok
2014-05-19T18:29:08Z Bike: "(+ 1 |10 * 10 * (1 + 1)|)", well, i'm already horrified
2014-05-19T18:29:12Z Bike: clhs |
2014-05-19T18:29:12Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for |.
2014-05-19T18:29:13Z ggole: |So you can write ()s and ,s and 's| <- one symbol
2014-05-19T18:29:13Z whartung: yea, that's rings a bit in my cloudy noggin
2014-05-19T18:29:16Z Bike: hum.
2014-05-19T18:29:22Z whartung: right
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2014-05-19T18:29:41Z whartung: truly abuse...ok
2014-05-19T18:29:42Z whartung: ty
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2014-05-19T18:32:50Z JuanDaugherty: "pipe" is miseleading since unix pipes are the first IT connotation
2014-05-19T18:33:25Z whartung: well, it's a common name for that glyph on the keyboard. But yea, I know what you mea.
2014-05-19T18:33:25Z whartung: mean
2014-05-19T18:33:49Z JuanDaugherty: *unix/stream/channel
2014-05-19T18:33:50Z whartung: I wasn't even considering that concept in this case. Just did't recall it's usage in symbols
2014-05-19T18:33:59Z stassats: you people are hard to please, now you don't like commons things, then you don't like CAR/CDR
2014-05-19T18:34:19Z whartung: yea, I rename CAR/CDR to THIS/THAT
2014-05-19T18:34:19Z Odin- suspects this use derives from mathematics.
2014-05-19T18:34:22Z Odin-: Absolute value.
2014-05-19T18:34:28Z Bike: clearly.
2014-05-19T18:34:42Z JuanDaugherty: wow, THIS/THAT, rly?
2014-05-19T18:34:46Z whartung: no
2014-05-19T18:34:47Z whartung: :)
2014-05-19T18:34:53Z Bike: i think that may have been a "Joke"
2014-05-19T18:35:10Z JuanDaugherty <- not good with humong humour.
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2014-05-19T18:36:38Z Odin-: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_ade.htm
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2014-05-19T18:42:11Z Odin- finds it interesting that the standard reserves [] and {} to the programmer.
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2014-05-19T18:48:44Z jasom: Odin-: I think that's vital, those are very useful characters for a library that wants to present a special syntax
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2014-05-19T18:51:15Z Xach: I found the parenscript:@ problem.
2014-05-19T18:51:30Z Xach: It was intended to be an @ with totally different semantics from a completely different package.
2014-05-19T18:52:09Z Odin-: jasom: Absolutely. I mostly find in intriguing when considering Clojure's [] vs. CL's #().
2014-05-19T18:52:45Z stassats: is clojure
2014-05-19T18:52:51Z stassats: 's [] quoted?
2014-05-19T18:53:06Z Odin-: s/in/it/;
2014-05-19T18:53:28Z fortitude: stassats: clojure's data literal things are all self-evaluating, iirc
2014-05-19T18:54:15Z stassats: can it do `#(,a)?
2014-05-19T18:54:50Z fortitude: stassats: I think that would just be [a], but I'm not 100% sure
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2014-05-19T18:55:25Z stassats: your answers contradict each other
2014-05-19T18:56:06Z fortitude: that's entirely possible, since I really don't know clojure well at all
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2014-05-19T18:58:41Z fortitude: stassats: apparently backticks work as you'd expect: `[(+ 1 2)] => [(clojure.core/+ 1 2)], `[,(+ 1 2)] => [3]
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2014-05-19T18:58:58Z stassats: and without?
2014-05-19T18:59:12Z fortitude: [(+ 1 2)] => [3]
2014-05-19T18:59:16Z stassats: i see
2014-05-19T18:59:16Z Odin-: And without, it evaluates what's in the internal list.
2014-05-19T18:59:28Z stassats: so, it's not like #()
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2014-05-19T19:03:31Z Odin-: Nope. Although I'll admit I didn't think that far; I was simply thinking about the surface appearance of it.
2014-05-19T19:04:22Z stassats: haske's [] is more fun
2014-05-19T19:04:35Z Odin-: Oh?
2014-05-19T19:04:54Z stassats: and i have a think just for that https://github.com/stassats/closer-apl/blob/master/closer-apl.lisp#L192
2014-05-19T19:05:42Z stassats: [2,4..10] => (2 4 6 8 10)
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2014-05-19T19:06:51Z Odin-: The name of that repository is scary, but intriguing.
2014-05-19T19:07:49Z stassats: it doesn't have much to do with APL, in reality
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2014-05-19T19:09:31Z Odin-: Similar thinking as was going on with Fortress, no?
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2014-05-19T19:09:57Z stassats: it doesn't have anything to do with castles?
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2014-05-19T19:11:02Z Odin-: Hm, damn. Seems the Fortress website went weird because of Oracle.
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2014-05-19T19:11:40Z stassats: what didn't go weird because of Oracle?
2014-05-19T19:11:49Z Odin-: Fair enough.
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2014-05-19T19:12:08Z ggole: Solaris! No, wait.
2014-05-19T19:12:41Z nyef: MacOS? I don't *THINK* that Oracle had anything to do with MacOS going weird.
2014-05-19T19:14:48Z Odin-: stassats: Fortress was an experimental Sun language aiming for scientific processing, which made use of Unicode for operators to make code look more like mathematical notation.
2014-05-19T19:15:44Z ggole: They had a full on Latex-like printer that would generate bitmaps
2014-05-19T19:15:59Z ggole: Strange thing to design into a language.
2014-05-19T19:16:06Z Odin-: ggole: Didn't that thing actually _use_ TeX?
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2014-05-19T19:16:20Z ggole: It may well have done, I'm not familiar with the guts of it.
2014-05-19T19:16:38Z nyef: Not like it's hard to make Lisp read LaTeX math syntax and assign semantics to it.
2014-05-19T19:17:30Z stassats: Odin-: i know what that Fortress is
2014-05-19T19:17:32Z ggole: Maybe I'm just stuck in my long-ossified text-editing ways, but I don't see that it's an important problem to solve.
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2014-05-19T20:51:44Z jasom: anyone here use fast-io?
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2014-05-19T20:52:34Z jasom: fast-io:fast-write-sequence seems to be inserting padding up to a 16-byte boundary on output
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2014-05-19T20:53:46Z jasom: found it, it's a bug in fast-io::flush
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2014-05-19T21:27:43Z puchacz: I have the following problem: say 300 substrings to match against a string. not  a regexp, just substring. it feels that I can greatly speed things up if I walk original long string and try to match all of them at once. what do you reckon?
2014-05-19T21:28:13Z puchacz: is there a library that can do such things?
2014-05-19T21:29:40Z puchacz: or, some partial solutions - in what data structure shall I keep 300 substrings so I can easily tell which substrings start with "cat%" for example
2014-05-19T21:30:34Z Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_searching_algorithm#Algorithms_using_a_finite_set_of_patterns
2014-05-19T21:30:56Z puchacz: Bike: thanks - have you got any experience with it?
2014-05-19T21:31:19Z Bike: not personally
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2014-05-19T21:31:43Z puchacz: these things seem very specialised, I doubt anybody implemented it in CL....
2014-05-19T21:32:40Z Bike: ppcre has some stuff to optimize strings, i don't know about sets of strings though
2014-05-19T21:32:53Z Bike: and it's in POSIX grep -F
2014-05-19T21:32:55Z _death: foo|bar|zot ain't so bad
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2014-05-19T21:33:46Z Bike: yeah i'd just use ppcre at first, and if that's too slow move on
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2014-05-19T21:34:26Z puchacz: Bike, _death - good idea, I may very well spend 50 hours trying to get the algorithm right myself
2014-05-19T21:34:37Z puchacz: so concatenation of 300 things with pipe ?
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2014-05-19T21:35:06Z _death: it'll build a finite automaton that scans each character in the input string once (at most)
2014-05-19T21:35:17Z Bike: puchacz: (ppcre:create-scanner (list* :alternation your-strings-here))
2014-05-19T21:35:35Z Bike: not much point in building a perl regex just to get it parsed
2014-05-19T21:35:44Z puchacz: ah, yeah, don't have to be perlish with compacted string here :-)
2014-05-19T21:36:58Z puchacz: thanks, I bookmarked this wiki article but as I say I doubt I can beat ppcre in reasonable coding time
2014-05-19T21:37:12Z puchacz: if it scans each character at most once in string it searches
2014-05-19T21:37:28Z Bike: well, it might be fun. implementing bitap was fun for me, but kinda pointless
2014-05-19T21:37:29Z _death: make sure to have it consider your strings as literals though
2014-05-19T21:37:51Z puchacz: then even if alternations are not optimised, it still at worst go through all 300 of them
2014-05-19T21:37:51Z Bike: yeah, parse trees treat strings as literals
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2014-05-19T21:38:03Z puchacz: _death: you mean quote meta chars?
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2014-05-19T21:39:49Z _death: yeh, there likely is a simple way to do that
2014-05-19T21:40:15Z Bike: yes, if create-scanner is receiving a list it'll treat internal strings as literal, rather than trying to interpret them as perl.
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2014-05-19T21:40:31Z puchacz: ok
2014-05-19T21:40:36Z puchacz: also, things get slightly more complex
2014-05-19T21:40:50Z _death: http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/#*allow-quoting*
2014-05-19T21:41:09Z puchacz: actually, snap - not more complex than I described
2014-05-19T21:41:39Z Bike: _death: don't need to worry about that with parse trees.
2014-05-19T21:41:51Z puchacz: so, without actually benchmarking, you guys think than alternation of 300 and scan once is faster than scan 300 times for a single literal?
2014-05-19T21:41:58Z _death: Bike: ah, good to know
2014-05-19T21:42:35Z Bike: puchacz: i would guess so. if it does an NFA conversion it'll collapse states for shared characters and such.
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2014-05-19T21:42:50Z _death: puchacz: yes.. I used that in some log parsing hack a while ago
2014-05-19T21:43:21Z puchacz: ok, so my guess that it still has to go through every 300 things to test against a single character in searched string is false
2014-05-19T21:43:24Z puchacz: I hope
2014-05-19T21:43:46Z _death: test it
2014-05-19T21:43:56Z puchacz: _death: I will of course
2014-05-19T21:44:17Z _death: let us know the results ;)
2014-05-19T21:44:23Z puchacz: but for what you are saying it will "compile" it into a data structure that knows without searching which strings start with "cat%" for example
2014-05-19T21:44:31Z puchacz: _death: I will - tomorrow most likely
2014-05-19T21:46:02Z puchacz: thank you very much!
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2014-05-19T22:03:26Z jasom: puchacz: if resource allocation gets too large with cl-ppcre it's not to hard to write something that will compile to a finite automaton, but I would expect that cl-ppcre is "good enough" for most usages
2014-05-19T22:03:47Z puchacz: jasom: when do you expect it to blow? at 300 strings alternation?
2014-05-19T22:04:37Z jasom: puchacz: not at all
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2014-05-19T22:04:48Z jasom: puchacz: though I don't know that it has specific optimizations for this case
2014-05-19T22:05:00Z puchacz: jasom: ok, I will give it a try tomorrow
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2014-05-19T22:05:19Z puchacz: ah - but you still expect alternation to be much faster than 300 individual checks?
2014-05-19T22:05:25Z jasom: making a parse-tree with cl-ppcre is a wonderful way to implement matching
2014-05-19T22:05:32Z jasom: puchacz: yes
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2014-05-19T22:05:39Z JuanDaugherty: is ql iolib different from the last one its (iolib's) site?
2014-05-19T22:05:41Z puchacz: jasom: great, thx
2014-05-19T22:05:51Z puchacz: ok, I am off - late here in Europe :-)
2014-05-19T22:06:04Z jasom: I implemented a shell, and wrote something to generate a cl-ppcre parse tree from a glob
2014-05-19T22:06:15Z jasom: same thing for posix regex
2014-05-19T22:07:32Z puchacz: ok, I will see performance
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2014-05-19T22:16:32Z jasom: If you want to see slime get really unhappy, accidentally pass a 3M element list where you meant to put a function and wait in vain for it to show an error message
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2014-05-19T22:17:38Z Fare: jasom: slime is perfectly happy about it; you're the one who seems not to be.
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2014-05-19T22:30:15Z jasom: minion: memo for puchacz: in a quick test an alternation regex of 300 items on a 3e6 element string was 3x faster than using 300 regexes and 2x faster than using cl:search 300 times.
2014-05-19T22:30:15Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell puchacz when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-05-20T00:44:20Z pillton: jasom: I did that once for an 2d array that was 1200x1200.
2014-05-20T00:44:44Z pillton: Good morning all.
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2014-05-20T00:45:49Z dlowe: that's not too surprising
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2014-05-20T00:47:37Z pillton: What isn't?
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2014-05-20T00:51:15Z dlowe: that an alternation regex was fast
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2014-05-20T03:19:27Z pjb: Symbolics Graphics Division Demo Reel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4HXPJtym2Q (1989)
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2014-05-20T03:22:22Z Zhivago: Wow, I'd need javascript to do that, these days. Providing I could find the clipart.
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2014-05-20T03:27:25Z zRecursive Found a great browser DWB: https://portix@bitbucket.org/portix/dwb.git, you can use JS to extend it easily :)
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2014-05-20T03:51:28Z edgar-rft: pjb: this video cannot be seen in Germany because of copyright issues with the music
2014-05-20T03:51:45Z pillton: edgar-rft: no way.
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2014-05-20T03:52:36Z edgar-rft: copyright issues with music from 1989?
2014-05-20T03:54:02Z Bike: they didn't just mute it, huh
2014-05-20T03:54:26Z pjb: edgar-rft: I'm puting a copy in ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/pub/lisp/videos/  should be up in a moment.
2014-05-20T03:55:06Z pjb: 30 seconds.
2014-05-20T03:55:15Z edgar-rft: countdown please...
2014-05-20T03:55:46Z pjb: done. Another one transmitting, up in one minute.
2014-05-20T03:56:10Z pjb: two minutes/
2014-05-20T03:56:33Z ahungry: Is there a way to have hunchentoot and clws (common lisp websockets) allow CORS (cross origin requests)?
2014-05-20T03:57:11Z ahungry: In the past I've just had my page connect to a websocket on a different port, like page on :4242, and websocket on :7155 for instance, but the latest firefox blocks that
2014-05-20T03:58:14Z pjb: done.
2014-05-20T03:59:01Z edgar-rft is alreday downloading the videos :)
2014-05-20T03:59:03Z pjb: They keep breaking the Internet. :-(
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2014-05-20T04:05:06Z edgar-rft: pjb: thank you (just watching the videos)
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2014-05-20T04:19:11Z H4ns: ahungry: cors is a matter of responding with the right headers
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2014-05-20T04:19:43Z H4ns: ahungry: it can be tricky to get right, but it is all possible with hunchentoot or any web server that allows you to send arbitrary headers
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2014-05-20T09:45:23Z pjb: Hi!  How things are in Almaty?
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2014-05-20T12:55:16Z Xach: pjb: Just another day of Lisp hacking!
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2014-05-20T13:10:18Z Viaken: So, something about this feels wrong. Is this bad code or just good reuse: http://paste.lisp.org/+321T
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2014-05-20T13:11:17Z nyef: Yeah, that does feel wrong somehow.
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2014-05-20T13:12:44Z nyef: ... Because it wants to be a function.
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2014-05-20T13:15:15Z Viaken: I didn't know how to drop the code into the loop without it being a macro, though.
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2014-05-20T13:18:07Z nyef: Have the loop funcall a function passed in as a parameter.
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2014-05-20T13:30:15Z Viaken: So, for count-primes-under, (let ((sum 0)) (labels ((f () (setf sum (1+ sum)))) (primes-helper max 'f)) or similar?
2014-05-20T13:30:28Z Viaken: And adapt the helper to that, of course.
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2014-05-20T13:34:22Z Xach: Viaken: 'f will refer to the global function named F. You must use #'f to get the local one.
2014-05-20T13:34:34Z Viaken: Right, thanks.
2014-05-20T13:34:57Z Viaken: I'm more used to Scheme than CL still.
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2014-05-20T13:36:25Z nyef: And (INCF SUM) rather than (SETF SUM (1+ SUM)).
2014-05-20T13:37:03Z Viaken: Thanks.
2014-05-20T13:37:20Z Viaken: I knew there had to be an easier way to do that. :)
2014-05-20T13:38:31Z Viaken: Speaking of, is there a "destructive cons" instead of doing (setf foo (cons 'bar foo))?
2014-05-20T13:39:08Z dlowe: you can (setf (car foo) ...) and (setf (cdr foo) ...)
2014-05-20T13:39:29Z nyef: Or the old versions, RPLACA and RPLACD (use the SETF versions instead).
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2014-05-20T13:40:13Z dlowe: When I rule the world, RPLACA and RPLACD will go away.
2014-05-20T13:40:13Z splittist: push ?
2014-05-20T13:40:19Z dlowe: But probably not before :/
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2014-05-20T13:40:44Z dlowe: yeah, he probably meant PUSH now that you mention it
2014-05-20T13:40:46Z Viaken: push. Of course. :)
2014-05-20T13:40:58Z dlowe: There's POP too
2014-05-20T13:41:09Z Viaken nods
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2014-05-20T13:44:11Z dlowe: trying out god-mode on emacs to hack lisp. It's a pretty weird experience
2014-05-20T13:44:18Z dlowe: I'm not sure I like it.
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2014-05-20T13:45:21Z oGMo: if modifiers give you RSI you have them mapped wrong and/or are not using alternating hands
2014-05-20T13:46:00Z dlowe: I can want to minimize hand stress without actually being worried about a clinical disorder
2014-05-20T13:46:28Z oGMo: ctrl was killer until i remapped it to capslock, for instance .. and use alternate hand for, well, alt
2014-05-20T13:46:35Z oGMo: never curl fingers
2014-05-20T13:46:44Z dlowe: I didn't ask for an ergo lecture :p
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2014-05-20T13:47:01Z oGMo: well i'm just saying, that's not going to do much if you're still doing the bad things
2014-05-20T13:47:25Z oGMo: reaching for escape is equally problematic
2014-05-20T13:47:51Z dlowe: yes, that's why I don't have anything mapped to escape
2014-05-20T13:48:06Z dlowe: you know what, I'm sorry I brought it up
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2014-05-20T13:48:53Z oGMo: :o
2014-05-20T13:49:51Z dlowe: Sorry. Haven't had morning coffee.
2014-05-20T13:50:08Z oGMo: i just did, hasn't quite kicked in
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2014-05-20T13:53:08Z splittist: oGMo: I've never understood the capslock to ctrl thing. Perhaps I have a weak left pinky. Modifiers should be ctrl - meta - hyper - super from (as small as possible) space bar outwards on both sides. Then you're talking alternating...
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2014-05-20T13:53:37Z dlowe: right, like the space cadet keyboard
2014-05-20T13:54:03Z dlowe: though if you don't have the small spacebar, I wonder how ergo that setup really is
2014-05-20T13:54:10Z oGMo: splittist: having to curl my fingers to reach them causes pain very quickly
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2014-05-20T13:54:25Z dlowe: The keys next to my space bar are kind of hard to reach
2014-05-20T13:54:31Z oGMo: with ctrl on caps, it actually rests on caps and i don't go anywhere
2014-05-20T13:55:15Z dlowe: For me, the biggest predictor of hand pain is key width. Having them farther apart makes it much harder
2014-05-20T13:55:27Z oGMo: interesting
2014-05-20T13:55:34Z oGMo: probably depends on relative key size
2014-05-20T13:55:43Z dlowe: Unfortunately, my latest laptop has keys that are really far apart. I'm thinking about getting another keyboard to plug into it
2014-05-20T13:55:56Z dlowe: Well, it's just having to spread my fingers at al.
2014-05-20T13:56:06Z oGMo: i actually use a datahand keyboard for regular typing because qwerty in general is murder, but there are a few things i can do
2014-05-20T13:56:18Z oGMo: for yeah, laptop where there's not much choice
2014-05-20T13:56:26Z dlowe: My grandmother was a professional typist back in the 30s. She typed all day, every day for 15 years and never had hand problems.
2014-05-20T13:56:50Z dlowe: on a mechanical keyboard. Her complaint about computers was always that the keys were too spread apart.
2014-05-20T13:56:59Z oGMo: well, the only modifier key on old typewriters is shift, isn't it ;)
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2014-05-20T13:57:06Z oGMo: ahh
2014-05-20T13:57:14Z oGMo: i can see that
2014-05-20T13:57:19Z dlowe: Actually, some of them had up to four modifiers.
2014-05-20T13:57:24Z dlowe: Not in combination, though
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2014-05-20T13:57:44Z dlowe: You'd pick a character set on a curved hammer
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2014-05-20T13:58:43Z oGMo: ah, fancier than what i recall
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2014-05-20T13:59:02Z oGMo: the electric i remember had more, but i'm a little fuzzy on the mechanical i suppose
2014-05-20T13:59:58Z oGMo: i ought to remap [] to () on this, for all i type them
2014-05-20T14:00:46Z dlowe: I was thinking I should use a keylogger to find my actual distribution probability
2014-05-20T14:01:01Z dlowe: that made no sense. I meant my actual keypress distribution
2014-05-20T14:01:06Z oGMo: i bet emacs could do it
2014-05-20T14:01:22Z dlowe: yeah, but only in emacs
2014-05-20T14:01:31Z dlowe: I guess that's a good start
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2014-05-20T14:02:42Z Viaken: I think you can watch /dev/input in Linux.
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2014-05-20T14:04:42Z splittist: Or just ask the NSA for their keylogger backups.
2014-05-20T14:04:48Z oGMo: heh
2014-05-20T14:05:29Z splittist: sometimes I wish I could edit - refactor? - using a game controller.
2014-05-20T14:06:35Z oGMo: you might but chording isn't terribly fast .. you could also possibly use a pie menu of letters on the sticks
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2014-05-20T14:10:25Z splittist: oGMo: not really typing - keyboards are good for that. Imagine zooming out of your project and being able to manipulate various bits of it with the facility one can slice and dice or shoot bad guys in a modern video game.
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2014-05-20T14:10:29Z oGMo: splittist: now you have me thinking .. that might really work.. 8 directions on each stick gets you 64 chars, plus shoulders for modifiers.. face buttons/dpad for navigation..
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2014-05-20T14:10:52Z oGMo: splittist: oh, well, that would be awesome too heh
2014-05-20T14:11:19Z loke__: oGMo: I think that would be slower than a keyboard still.
2014-05-20T14:11:24Z loke__: And definitely less precise.
2014-05-20T14:11:55Z oGMo: slower certainly, but for just doing simple edits not as terrible as an onscreen keyboard
2014-05-20T14:12:18Z loke__: oGMo: Fair enough, on-screen keyboards are quite horrible in every sense of the word.
2014-05-20T14:12:29Z loke__: oGMo: But what stops you from using a keyboard?
2014-05-20T14:13:02Z oGMo: loke__: well, alternative for RSI relief, presumably
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2014-05-20T14:13:09Z splittist: loke__: only for new stuff. Some nice heuristics to order which symbol you might be trying to input at point, and a clear way of presenting those alternatives (multiple dimensions etc....)
2014-05-20T14:13:29Z oGMo: a bit off-topic, but a concern for many devs, and this could probably be done in CL ;]
2014-05-20T14:14:09Z oGMo: clx + some joystick reading
2014-05-20T14:15:26Z oGMo: splittist: i would love to get away from files and simply have a giant graph of all my lisp source, too
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2014-05-20T14:19:13Z loke__: Remarkable... It's been several months since I saw any WJ-spam on c.l.l. What's the world coming to?
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2014-05-20T14:20:03Z dim: could it be that WJ is another Xah Lee personality or bot?
2014-05-20T14:20:35Z loke__: dim: I doubt it. They have quite different styles.
2014-05-20T14:21:02Z loke__: And the rare times I've seen WJ write something that is not spam, he actually seems more knowledgeable than Xah
2014-05-20T14:21:19Z dim: fair enough ;-)
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2014-05-20T14:21:56Z loke__: Xah is more concerning, since his posts often rank high on google for various Emacs issues, and his recommendations are usually flat out wrong.
2014-05-20T14:23:04Z dim: yeah I've noticesd he's pretty good at misleading
2014-05-20T14:24:54Z loke__: dim: He's quite certain that his view the correct, and that others (with much more knowledge) are just wrong, which makes it incredibly difficult to argue with him. I've had a few run-ins with him on G+, and it's a painful experience.
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2014-05-20T14:25:49Z Xach: I am always happy when someone meets me in person and says "I thought you were that Emacs guy Xah"
2014-05-20T14:26:03Z loke__: Xach: Ouch :-)
2014-05-20T14:26:06Z ntesir: oGMo: have you seen aetniop / chordmak?
2014-05-20T14:26:31Z loke__: Xach: that's not really a compliment now is it...
2014-05-20T14:26:51Z Xach: loke__: that's the price, i guess, of having a nick that's a short edit-distance from Xah
2014-05-20T14:27:05Z p_l|backup: Xah was also often quite prejudiced on topics he claimed to have learned to write about (like keyboard-related stuff)
2014-05-20T14:27:17Z ntesir: asetniop does word prediction, it's pretty cool and fast
2014-05-20T14:27:24Z p_l|backup: I don't think he ever took in my complaint that some of the stuff was flat out wrong
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2014-05-20T14:28:27Z Xach: It seems like he has brain problems. Like many others in the Lisp community.
2014-05-20T14:28:56Z brucem: like me. but at least I get treatment.
2014-05-20T14:28:58Z ntesir: eh.
2014-05-20T14:29:04Z loke__: brucem: Same here :-)
2014-05-20T14:29:26Z loke__: I don't mind people having problems, but when they actively cause damage to a community, that's annoying.
2014-05-20T14:30:21Z dlowe: You always tend to find extremes in people of unpopular groups
2014-05-20T14:30:45Z ntesir: I haven't read c.l.l for ages, who's WJ?
2014-05-20T14:30:51Z Xach: Yeah, it's annoying. I find it hard to keep in mind sometimes that the way various people are acting is not always the intentional result of a healthy thought-process.
2014-05-20T14:31:53Z loke__: ntesir: It's a troll that sometimes finds tens of (often very old) posts containing random Common Lisp code, then rewriting the same code in some other random language, and commenting that "CL sucks, here's how you do it in language X which is much better"
2014-05-20T14:32:09Z phadthai: Xach: I don't only see that in the lisp community, but in every software community :)
2014-05-20T14:32:27Z loke__: ntesir: For a while, language X was Ruby, then Racket, then Picolisp (IIRC), etc.., etc...
2014-05-20T14:32:29Z ntesir: loke__: independently of the trolling, that seems like a productive exercise
2014-05-20T14:32:34Z dlowe: loke__: we should totally do that with other languages :D
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2014-05-20T14:32:46Z dlowe: except, post on c.l.l. and not their group
2014-05-20T14:32:54Z jsnell_: there was a recent discussion about Xah on HN that I found completely surreal
2014-05-20T14:32:56Z loke__: ntesir: Yeah, I'm thinking that that is perhaps his hobby, which he then combines with some trolling.
2014-05-20T14:33:10Z jsnell_: since it had all these people talking about how helpful he was, or how it was possible for such an obviously talented person to not be able find a job, etc
2014-05-20T14:33:42Z loke__: jsnell_: That's the problem. People find his posts when googling for emacs problems and get the compltely wrong solutions.
2014-05-20T14:33:45Z jsnell_: just goes to show how different perspectives different communities can have
2014-05-20T14:34:12Z splittist: there are many exceptional people on HN. Perhaps just not exceptional in the way they think they are.
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2014-05-20T14:35:01Z ntesir: well, it seems Xah got 6k
2014-05-20T14:35:29Z loke__: ntesir: 6k what?
2014-05-20T14:35:37Z ntesir: US$
2014-05-20T14:35:45Z loke__: oh wow
2014-05-20T14:35:51Z ntesir: from donations
2014-05-20T14:36:58Z loke__: ntesir: Assuming what he said was true, then good for him. Being flat-out broke is quite horrible. And I say that regardless of the fact that I believe he's done damage to the Emacs community.
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2014-05-20T14:38:29Z ntesir: loke__: for sure. I'm kinda afraid we might commite suicide.
2014-05-20T14:38:54Z loke__: Anyway, here's a typical WJ post, if you never saw one: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/VQUZ7Kjim9I
2014-05-20T14:39:06Z ntesir: eh, i meant him
2014-05-20T14:39:38Z loke__: The first one in the thread. And notice how it's a reply to a very old post by a person who had died not that long ago.
2014-05-20T14:40:10Z ggole: ...about how short his code was(n't).
2014-05-20T14:40:15Z ggole: Some people just don't get it.
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2014-05-20T14:48:47Z ntesir: loke__: "Yeah, and he's posted some pretty good articles on RSI and emacs." do you think this is accurate?
2014-05-20T14:49:15Z ntesir: i've never paid any attention to Xah, just want to mind-score him for future reference.
2014-05-20T14:49:20Z loke__: ntesir: I've seen his writing on that, and it's mostly completely bogus.
2014-05-20T14:49:45Z msmith: what method do you recommend for propagating conditions between threads?  anyone?
2014-05-20T14:50:12Z dim: lparallel can do that, I don't know how
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2014-05-20T14:52:49Z msmith: dim: thanks I'll look into that
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2014-05-20T16:01:32Z H4ns: dim: it sets up a catch-all handler before starting the thread's worker function.
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2014-05-20T16:45:42Z puchacz: hi, is there a map/dictionary utility that optimises for greater/lower/equal searches? like TreeMap in java
2014-05-20T16:45:42Z minion: puchacz, memo from jasom: in a quick test an alternation regex of 300 items on a 3e6 element string was 3x faster than using 300 regexes and 2x faster than using cl:search 300 times.
2014-05-20T16:46:09Z puchacz: thanks, jasom :-)
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2014-05-20T16:48:21Z puchacz: maybe this? http://www.cliki.net/cl-treemaps
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2014-05-20T16:51:16Z jasom: puchacz: also http://cliki.net/cl-containers
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2014-05-20T16:51:47Z puchacz: jasom: thx for testing the regexp
2014-05-20T16:51:51Z jasom: puchacz: in the past I've just implemented my own trie for doing that; most of the time I have a very specific idea of what greater/lower/equal is
2014-05-20T16:51:54Z jasom: puchacz: np
2014-05-20T16:52:07Z puchacz: also, is the cl-containers the recommended library now?
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2014-05-20T16:52:32Z jasom: puchacz: I haven't used that nor treemaps, so I can't make a recommendation
2014-05-20T16:52:39Z puchacz: ok
2014-05-20T16:52:44Z jasom: puchacz: I just know that it's another option
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2014-05-20T19:10:45Z Vivitron: Pleasant surprise this morning, videos are available from ELS 2014: http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/content-programme-full.html
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2014-05-20T19:12:27Z Vivitron: Looks like all talks except Pascal Costanza's are included
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2014-05-20T19:14:42Z whartung: why would they do that?
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2014-05-20T19:18:16Z jasom: Vivitron: are they downloadable?  It would be nice to queue them up on my phone for when I have time.
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2014-05-20T19:18:41Z Vivitron: jasom: yes, on my android I long tapped the video and saved it
2014-05-20T19:18:57Z Vivitron: jasom: watching richard gabriel using dice player right now
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2014-05-20T19:29:21Z zeitue: Can I get a recommendation? I'd like to know what Lisp would be good to teach my siblings but would still be very useful for making things.
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2014-05-20T19:29:34Z oGMo: SBCL or CCL
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2014-05-20T19:30:06Z zeitue: I've heard of Steel Banker Common Lisp but what is CCL?
2014-05-20T19:30:13Z oGMo: given e.g. cl-sdl2 and cl-opengl you have everything you need to make a game
2014-05-20T19:30:20Z p_l|backup: zeitue: Clozure Common Lisp
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2014-05-20T19:30:25Z oGMo: Clozure Common Lisp, not to be confused with clojure
2014-05-20T19:30:27Z zeitue: ah thanks
2014-05-20T19:30:49Z zeitue: it's very close to Clojure which I know how to code in
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2014-05-20T19:31:15Z zeitue: what about for regular GUI programs?
2014-05-20T19:31:53Z oGMo: there are wrappers for gtk, qt, and some others, but i'm not particularly satisfied with any
2014-05-20T19:32:01Z oGMo: but they work if you like those toolkits
2014-05-20T19:32:38Z oGMo: also there is CLX and CLIM, which .. work
2014-05-20T19:32:59Z zeitue: OK, that will work. I think I asked my base question in the wrong room though
2014-05-20T19:32:59Z oGMo: there _are_
2014-05-20T19:33:10Z zeitue: I'm going to look those up
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2014-05-20T19:34:38Z Fare converted the system to build asdf itself from shell to CL, and it's so much better now
2014-05-20T19:35:00Z zeitue: as far as teaching noobs I will be fine with common Lisp yes?
2014-05-20T19:35:37Z Fare: for total noobs, you might prefer Racket and its How to Design Program teaching method
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2014-05-20T19:35:50Z |3b| thinks that's more a question of how well you know it and how good a teacher you are :)
2014-05-20T19:35:52Z oleo: jep
2014-05-20T19:35:59Z oleo: probably better for noobs to use racket
2014-05-20T19:36:15Z zeitue: I have to agree with that one |3b|
2014-05-20T19:36:17Z |3b|: also how much work you want to do setting up a nice starting environment for them
2014-05-20T19:36:21Z heddwch: BASIC
2014-05-20T19:36:26Z Fare: if you're going to closely mentor someone, pick something you really know
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2014-05-20T19:36:51Z Fare: if you're just putting them on tracks, send them onto a community that's geared for teaching
2014-05-20T19:36:55Z zeitue: well I am and it's only two people anyways
2014-05-20T19:36:57Z |3b|: racket is probably has a nicer environment for starting out than most CLs
2014-05-20T19:37:03Z heddwch: or BASIC
2014-05-20T19:37:12Z zeitue: !Basic
2014-05-20T19:37:12Z Colleen: I don't know what you mean, zeitue.
2014-05-20T19:37:18Z |3b|: but if you only know clojure, that would probably be better if you can set things up for them
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2014-05-20T19:37:40Z oleo: gwbasic, qbasic, visual basic....lol
2014-05-20T19:37:42Z zeitue: Colleen, I'm going to be teaching two students and I'm trying to decide what to teach them
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2014-05-20T19:37:51Z heddwch: oleo: Atari BASIC
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2014-05-20T19:38:04Z dlowe: I'd say Racket or Squeak
2014-05-20T19:38:05Z Fare: cooking
2014-05-20T19:38:06Z oleo: never had it....always wanted one....
2014-05-20T19:38:06Z |3b|: zeitue: colleen is a bot (who possibly should be told not to respond on #lisp)
2014-05-20T19:38:08Z oleo: lol
2014-05-20T19:38:26Z heddwch: oleo: The wonders of emulation :D
2014-05-20T19:38:35Z oleo: and they were soon from the market when i had the chance to buy a pc....
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2014-05-20T19:39:03Z zeitue: Emulation is a great thing indeed I've got hundreds of emulators
2014-05-20T19:39:29Z zeitue: how was I suppose to know he was a bot
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2014-05-20T19:39:34Z oleo: simulators are good too....
2014-05-20T19:39:45Z |3b|: zeitue: that's why i told you :)
2014-05-20T19:39:55Z zeitue agrees 
2014-05-20T19:39:57Z heddwch: !cheesecake
2014-05-20T19:39:57Z Colleen: I don't know what you mean, heddwch.
2014-05-20T19:40:04Z zeitue: thanks |3b|
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2014-05-20T19:40:31Z |3b| likes the style of bot that responds to being addressed directly like minion, rather than just using ! prefix
2014-05-20T19:40:58Z Fare: minion, chant
2014-05-20T19:40:58Z minion: MORE KNOWLEDGE
2014-05-20T19:41:42Z heddwch: The '!' prefix is common among those bots I'm assuming Colleen is one of, the DCC pornbot
2014-05-20T19:41:48Z zeitue: my AI died I miss it
2014-05-20T19:42:36Z |3b|: colleen is at least written in CL, dunno if it has any DCC features like that :)
2014-05-20T19:43:46Z heddwch: :o an adaptive pornbot
2014-05-20T19:44:14Z dlowe: |3b|: is the code public?
2014-05-20T19:47:20Z zeitue: Thanks for all the info guys
2014-05-20T19:47:20Z |3b|: i think it is https://github.com/Shinmera/colleen
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2014-05-20T20:05:39Z malice: Hello, question!
2014-05-20T20:06:14Z malice: In book that I'm reading CL from, there's a chapter on assignment, and it suggests assigning variables with setf. However, it gives me a warning every time I do so.
2014-05-20T20:06:38Z malice: I also know that there's a defvar, which won't give me compiler warnings, and will make setf not give any compiler warnings on this variable afterwards.
2014-05-20T20:07:09Z malice: There's a note to instructors that defvar "proclaims variable special". So if I create variable with setf, it's not "special", and with defvar it is?
2014-05-20T20:07:21Z malice: And if so(or not), what's the difference between these two?
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2014-05-20T20:08:22Z Fare: malice, whether setf declares special or not is implementation-dependent
2014-05-20T20:08:39Z Fare: on cmucl, by default, the first setf of a global variable would declare it special
2014-05-20T20:08:42Z malice: Oh.
2014-05-20T20:08:56Z malice: Okay. I'm using sbcl, so I believe it's not special.
2014-05-20T20:09:00Z |3b|: you assign variables with SETF, you don't /create/ variables with setf
2014-05-20T20:09:02Z malice: But anyway, what's the difference?
2014-05-20T20:09:20Z Fare: for portability, use defparameter and defvar to declare your variable specials
2014-05-20T20:09:27Z |3b|: DEFVAR, LET, function arguments, etc create variable bindings you can assign with setf
2014-05-20T20:09:30Z Fare: and use symbol-macros if you want them NOT to be special
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2014-05-20T20:10:27Z malice: so I *declare* variable with defvar, and *define* them with setf?
2014-05-20T20:10:41Z |3b|: no, you assign to them with SETF
2014-05-20T20:10:57Z Fare: e.g. (defparameter *global-x* 1) (define-symbol-macro x *global-x*) (let ((x 2)) (lambda () x)
2014-05-20T20:11:03Z |3b|: DEFVAR creates a (possibly unbound) variable binding
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2014-05-20T20:11:18Z Fare: you declare with defvar or defparameter, usually
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2014-05-20T20:12:43Z nicdev: malice: variable creation, declaration and assignment are all different things
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2014-05-20T20:13:18Z malice: Yes, I'm aware of that.
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2014-05-20T20:15:42Z malice: So... I still don't fully get it. Sorry for that, but I want to understand this.
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2014-05-20T20:15:55Z malice: What is the difference, between special and non-special variable?
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2014-05-20T20:16:10Z Fare: malice, dynamic vs static binding
2014-05-20T20:16:14Z |3b|: special variables are "dynamic" bindings, non-special are "lexical" bindings
2014-05-20T20:16:17Z malice: Ah. This thing
2014-05-20T20:16:30Z whartung: yea, that thing
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2014-05-20T20:21:53Z malice: Well, thanks!
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2014-05-20T20:23:29Z whartung: does that all make sense malice or are you still confused?
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2014-05-20T20:30:12Z ejbs: It's now almost summer 2014, does anyone know what happened to Lisp in Summer Projects? Checking out their website right now and can see no news
2014-05-20T20:31:38Z Krystof: that's nothing!  John McCarthy died three years ago, and yet... http://lisp.org/index.html
2014-05-20T20:31:47Z Krystof: (I know nothing about the Lisp in Summer Projects)
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2014-05-20T20:33:28Z malice: whartung, depends
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2014-05-20T20:34:02Z whartung: on what malice ?
2014-05-20T20:34:03Z malice: whartung, I nead to read more about dynamic and lexical bindings. I only "kind-of" understand it, but now I know the difference between defvar and setf
2014-05-20T20:34:11Z whartung: ok
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2014-05-20T20:34:39Z malice: whartung, so hopefully one day I learn more and everything will be clear to me, I'll be presented to Lisp Heaven, and some sweet code will appear in repl
2014-05-20T20:34:40Z whartung: at 30,000 feet, dynamic variables "global", while lexical bindings are "local".
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2014-05-20T20:34:52Z malice: :)
2014-05-20T20:34:56Z malice: Now we're talking :D
2014-05-20T20:35:04Z whartung: that may be enough to move you forward.
2014-05-20T20:35:14Z whartung: yea, there's nuance from there, but...
2014-05-20T20:35:25Z ejbs`: Man, I lost my connection and missed out :(
2014-05-20T20:35:49Z malice: I know, that it's slightly different, I've read about it
2014-05-20T20:36:05Z malice: It's just that CL is a bit different from C++, so I kind of have to read everything twice
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2014-05-20T20:38:13Z heddwch: a bit?
2014-05-20T20:38:13Z whartung: yea.. "a bit" :)
2014-05-20T20:38:18Z heddwch: jinx
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2014-05-20T20:40:58Z malice: :)
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2014-05-20T22:16:14Z ltbarcly: if I want to 'group' things, my first thought is to create a vector of lists (or a hash-table, in this case the groups are all low positive integers), and then step through the things pushing each thing onto the list like (push thing (aref buckets (find-group thing)))
2014-05-20T22:16:37Z ltbarcly: however, in Python I would use itertools.groupby, which would greatly simplify things
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2014-05-20T22:16:46Z ltbarcly: first question: what's the nice way to do this in common lisp
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2014-05-20T22:19:20Z ltbarcly: I have a sinking suspicion there is some combination of a "built in function I don't know" and (loop collect) or something that would be very clean and easy on my brain
2014-05-20T22:19:23Z jasom: ltbarcly: the itertools groupby requires it to be sorted already?
2014-05-20T22:19:29Z ltbarcly: jasom: yes
2014-05-20T22:19:33Z ltbarcly: and that is true here
2014-05-20T22:19:58Z ltbarcly: they are already sorted by what bucket they will fall into
2014-05-20T22:20:35Z ltbarcly: but the divisions between buckets in the initial list have to be checked
2014-05-20T22:21:19Z ltbarcly: (the short version is, the thing I'm bucketing is a list of offsets into a large file, which is really many files concatenated together, and I need to bucket the offsets by which original file they land in)
2014-05-20T22:21:54Z ltbarcly: due to the way these offsets are computed, it's not possible to keep track of the original file as I go along
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2014-05-20T22:23:08Z ltbarcly: so basically using itertools groupby, it would look like (using pseudo python)
2014-05-20T22:23:34Z jasom: (loop for item in list collect item into tmp when (test-if-bucket-changed) collect tmp and do (setf tmp nil))
2014-05-20T22:23:38Z jasom: I think that will do it
2014-05-20T22:23:52Z ltbarcly: so test if bucket changed will have to remember the previous bucket
2014-05-20T22:23:56Z jasom: right
2014-05-20T22:24:01Z ltbarcly: closure?
2014-05-20T22:24:08Z jasom: oh, and you want the test to be before the collect now that I think about it
2014-05-20T22:24:21Z jasom: and you'll need a finally to collect the last bucket
2014-05-20T22:24:30Z ltbarcly: now you see why I asked :)
2014-05-20T22:24:47Z ltbarcly: well, I can use for instead of a temporary bucket
2014-05-20T22:25:14Z ltbarcly: well, checking the bucket is cheap enough
2014-05-20T22:25:29Z ltbarcly: so maybe nest a loop collecting lists in a loop collecting offsets?
2014-05-20T22:25:33Z ltbarcly: other way round
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2014-05-20T22:27:19Z ltbarcly: bah, I just typed that up, where the bucket changes is still not nice
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2014-05-20T22:27:33Z ltbarcly: basically itertools.groupby can be done easily in Python because of generators
2014-05-20T22:28:17Z ltbarcly: which I sorely miss to be honest
2014-05-20T22:28:49Z jasom: ltbarcly: its easy enough to get generators with cl-cont
2014-05-20T22:29:00Z ltbarcly: have you used it?
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2014-05-20T22:29:06Z jasom: ltbarcly: though I've open-coded them with tagbody instead
2014-05-20T22:29:07Z ltbarcly: if so, does it get hairy?
2014-05-20T22:29:27Z jasom: open-coding them with tagbody gets hairy, with cl-cont it's a  breeze, though there are some known limitations on cl-cont
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2014-05-20T22:30:05Z ltbarcly: I believe cl-cont just uses code walking to encapsulate the stack state into some kind of heap-allocated datastructure, and then transforms the code into a tagbody?
2014-05-20T22:30:38Z ltbarcly: which makes me super nervous just because I can just see how fun it will be to debug
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2014-05-20T22:31:43Z jasom: hmm (setf tmp nil) doesn't work even though my intial reading of the spec makes me think it would
2014-05-20T22:31:52Z ltbarcly: I convinced myself it would be worthwhile to write a generator library based on greenlets or coroutines, but then IIRC all the greenlet/coroutine libraries for CL in turn just used code walking to do blah lbah
2014-05-20T22:31:59Z jasom: oh, debugging cl-cont can be interesting, but the code is often short
2014-05-20T22:32:22Z jasom: open-coding with tagboddies and named lambdas is fairly trivial to debug, but the code is complex
2014-05-20T22:32:29Z jasom: so it's a tradeoff
2014-05-20T22:32:59Z ltbarcly: in this case generators, while nice, probably aren't necessary, although I'm scratching my head for a solution that is as nice as it seems like it should be possible to make
2014-05-20T22:33:20Z ltbarcly: I mean it's not hard to just code up procedurally, but I wish I wouldn't need all that noise
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2014-05-20T22:33:52Z jasom: If you don't care about preserving order, you can use (push), otherwise it's push with nreverse or keep track of the tail pointer
2014-05-20T22:34:57Z jasom: (group-by '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (lambda (x) (floor x 3))) => (group-by '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (lambda (x) (floor x 3)))
2014-05-20T22:35:01Z jasom: there's my version using push
2014-05-20T22:35:28Z jasom: (group-by '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (lambda (x) (floor x 3))) => ((2 1) (5 4 3) (8 7 6) (10 9))
2014-05-20T22:35:35Z jasom: now with actual return value!
2014-05-20T22:36:04Z ltbarcly: where did that group-by function come from
2014-05-20T22:36:17Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/+3221
2014-05-20T22:36:18Z Fare: jasom: "now with 100% more return values"
2014-05-20T22:37:08Z jasom: Is there an elisp module to send a REPL interaction straight to paste.lisp.org?
2014-05-20T22:37:29Z jasom: It would be nice if it also fixed the indentation
2014-05-20T22:38:05Z ltbarcly: haha, the reader can do some weird stuff with . and numbers
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2014-05-20T22:38:25Z jasom: ooh, I thought of a fancy way of doing group-by without needing to nreverse or keep track of tail pointer... 1 sec
2014-05-20T22:38:45Z ltbarcly: 1.1 => 1.1, 1.1. => |1.1.| haha
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2014-05-20T22:40:09Z jasom: any token that isn't a number is a symbol; pseudo-numbers are allowed to be numbers though, so they need to be quoted to be portable
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2014-05-20T22:41:30Z jasom: ...and my fancy way was incorrect
2014-05-20T22:41:52Z ltbarcly: oh, I think I see a way to do it using the fact that setf returns it's value
2014-05-20T22:42:58Z ltbarcly: (oh, and the fact that I want empty buckets if a number is skipped)
2014-05-20T22:43:19Z jasom: ltbarcly: that's different from itertools groupby...
2014-05-20T22:43:27Z ltbarcly: oh, right, sorry
2014-05-20T22:43:31Z ltbarcly: well, kindof
2014-05-20T22:43:41Z ltbarcly: here, let me give you the python solution:
2014-05-20T22:43:57Z jasom: Then just iterate over the buckets at the same time as you iterate over the list and you're done
2014-05-20T22:44:30Z ltbarcly: wait what
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2014-05-20T22:45:51Z ltbarcly: (1 1.33 1.344 2.11 2.35 2.77 3.1 4.2 4.4 4.5 4.6 6.6)  => ((1 1.33 1.344) (2.11 2.35 2.77) (3.1) (4.2 4.4 4.5 4.6) () (6.6)) for example (if the key function is floor)
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2014-05-20T22:51:14Z jasom: If you can destructively modify the list, you can do it quite efficiently in-place I think.
2014-05-20T22:54:38Z jasom: ltbarcly: there's a simple recursive implementation; converting it to iteration or tail-recursion should be quite easy http://paste.lisp.org/+3221/1
2014-05-20T22:56:08Z jasom: (though changet hte call to #'LIST to be a call to #'CONS
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2014-05-20T22:57:47Z jasom: but no, I don't see a simple library function to do what you need.  Nor do I see something in alexandria
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2014-05-20T23:03:07Z jasom: ltbarcly: http://paste.lisp.org/+3221/2
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2014-05-20T23:05:42Z jasom: and something similar could be used to make a group-by that is actually like itertools
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2014-05-20T23:08:52Z jasom: (I've annotated the paste with such a thing)
2014-05-20T23:09:27Z jasom: though I didn't return a key-value pair, just the value
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2014-05-20T23:11:40Z jasom: FYI I ported a several thousand-lines of a python library to lisp once, going line by line.  For the most part, I could do over 100 lines per hour, but translating a single generator could take me several hours
2014-05-20T23:12:15Z jasom: The group-by implementation shown in the python docs is not a hard one to translate literally though, since it's just a fancy loop
2014-05-20T23:13:18Z jasom: If you look at my implementation, it's essentially a translation of that with the while/yield put inline as a collect
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2014-05-20T23:27:27Z jasom: also, I wouldn't be too surprised if series contains a group-by type thing
2014-05-20T23:27:40Z jasom: but I don't know if anybody still uses series
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2014-05-20T23:46:15Z jasom: hmm fare pronounces CLOS like see-loss I've always pronoucned it kloss, have I been doing it wrong?
2014-05-20T23:47:16Z eudoxia: i also use kloss
2014-05-20T23:47:20Z pillton: I pronounce it kloss, but I live on a big island.
2014-05-20T23:48:51Z pillton: The C in Common is not 'see'.
2014-05-20T23:49:40Z jasom: pillton: the letter "C" is pronoucned "see" nobody's calling it sloss
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2014-05-20T23:51:16Z Fare: jasom: don't you see the loss?
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2014-05-20T23:51:32Z Fare: jasom: did you enjoy my talk?
2014-05-20T23:52:06Z Fare: do you pronounce CL "see-ell" or "kl" ?
2014-05-20T23:52:08Z DataLinkDroid: kloss for me :)
2014-05-20T23:52:16Z Fare: I program in "kill"
2014-05-20T23:52:44Z DataLinkDroid: CL is not a word
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2014-05-20T23:53:21Z Fare: "What do you do in life?" "kill programmer" "OK (backing off slowly)"
2014-05-20T23:53:42Z DataLinkDroid: step back from the edge... ;-)
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2014-05-20T23:55:29Z pillton: Perhaps there is a hamming distance thing going on. CLOS is closer to 'close' than it is to CL.
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2014-05-21T00:10:00Z jasom: Fare: I did, though I had read your draft paper you posted to the asdf list a while back, so there wasn't much that was surprising
2014-05-21T00:11:36Z Fare: oh, thanks
2014-05-21T00:11:52Z Fare: I aimed for the opposite of surprise, with the talk
2014-05-21T00:13:27Z Fare: I had a basic message to bring forward: scripting is about low-overhead division of labor; build systems are about enabling division of labor; asdf now enables scripting with CL.
2014-05-21T00:14:38Z Fare: and that joke about CL+asdf being a file-granular JIT for a mostly-portable bytecode virtual machine, where bytecode 40 means "start of new subprogram" and bytecode 41 means "end of current subprogram".
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2014-05-21T00:23:59Z Denommus: Fare: how does asdf help with scripting?
2014-05-21T00:24:24Z Denommus: (and, more importantly, how do I update it?)
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2014-05-21T00:27:32Z Fare: Denommus, see my talk and/or read the slides on http://github.com/fare/asdf3-2013/
2014-05-21T00:28:20Z Fare: it makes it possible to write code once that can be run anywhere without the user having to edit the code or configure his machine.
2014-05-21T00:28:51Z Fare: though he may still have to use some kind of package manager (dpkg, quicklisp, etc.) to get the code and its dependencies.
2014-05-21T00:29:10Z Fare: but at least these managers can each configure their code, modularly.
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2014-05-21T00:29:26Z Fare: and not care about other managers (or manually downloaded packages)
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2014-05-21T00:57:35Z Denommus: Fare: how can I check for the installed version of asdf?
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2014-05-21T01:01:35Z Bike: asdf:asdf-version?
2014-05-21T01:04:45Z Fare: #+asdf3.1
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2014-05-21T01:04:58Z Fare: (asdf:version-satisfies (asdf:asdf-version) "3.1.2")
2014-05-21T01:05:18Z Denommus: mine is 3.1.2
2014-05-21T01:05:28Z Denommus: ops
2014-05-21T01:05:28Z Fare: that's a good one
2014-05-21T01:05:29Z Denommus: 3.0.2
2014-05-21T01:05:42Z Fare: oh, it's not bad, just almost a year old
2014-05-21T01:05:44Z Fare: using sbcl?
2014-05-21T01:05:53Z Denommus: yes
2014-05-21T01:06:26Z Fare: maybe you can tell them on #sbcl and/or on the suitable bug on launchpad that you too would like an upgrade
2014-05-21T01:06:46Z Fare: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1318046
2014-05-21T01:07:24Z Denommus: to be fair, SBCL in Arch is still outdated
2014-05-21T01:07:47Z Fare: that said, if you "just" git clone asdf in a place that's configured in your .config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf ...
2014-05-21T01:08:21Z Denommus: Fare: I don't have this file :-/
2014-05-21T01:08:32Z Fare: easy to create
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2014-05-21T01:09:22Z Fare: or in .config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/00-common-lisp.conf insert (:tree (:home "common-lisp"))
2014-05-21T01:09:42Z Fare: that becomes an implicit default in 3.1.2, but has to be explicitly specified for 3.0.2
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2014-05-21T01:12:00Z Denommus: Fare: hm. I would have expected quicklisp to be able to help me with that
2014-05-21T01:12:42Z Denommus: Fare: (but it seems that quicklisp uses an even older version)
2014-05-21T01:14:20Z Fare: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1318046
2014-05-21T01:14:59Z Fare: somehow I got on the wrong side of Xach by breaking software too much, and he's not enthusiastic about upgrading his ASDF.
2014-05-21T01:15:34Z Fare: My package-inferred-system extension notably broke his dependency detection engine.
2014-05-21T01:16:00Z Fare: at some point, my secondary system style may have broken it, too
2014-05-21T01:16:20Z Fare: and there's all the changes I make to my libraries
2014-05-21T01:19:26Z Fare: not my problem anymore.
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2014-05-21T02:41:29Z ltbarcly: jasom: so it is very annoying in this case that there is no way to 'reset' a list you are collecting into
2014-05-21T02:42:12Z ltbarcly: it's also odd that the argument you pass to collect has to be a simple-var
2014-05-21T02:42:26Z ltbarcly: it's also annoying that you can't collect into an existing variable
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2014-05-21T02:44:37Z andreh: I think I found an error in the spec: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_invo_1.htm
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2014-05-21T02:45:20Z andreh: In the example it defines a function named ADD3, but uses an undefined function named FOO.
2014-05-21T02:45:28Z andreh: That's an error, right?
2014-05-21T02:45:39Z Bike: looks like it
2014-05-21T02:45:51Z nightfly: grrr, cffi callbacks not working in sbcl is rather annoying
2014-05-21T02:46:32Z ltbarcly: I really don't understand from the spec why you can't do (loop with list = nil for i below 10 collect i into list)
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2014-05-21T02:54:45Z zRecursive: ltbarcly: (loop for i below 10 collect i into list finally (return list))
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2014-05-21T03:09:09Z zRecursive: Can CCL be built from source ? It seems there is no any Makefile ?
2014-05-21T03:10:14Z pjb: It can be built from the sources, and there is no Makefile to do so.
2014-05-21T03:10:38Z pjb: Have you browsed the documentation?
2014-05-21T03:10:58Z zRecursive: so CCL can be called semi-open sources :)
2014-05-21T03:11:18Z Bike: no, you just use a shell script instead of a makefile, or suchlike
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2014-05-21T03:11:23Z zRecursive: pjb: not yet
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2014-05-21T03:11:33Z Bike: don't say wrong and mildly insulting things and put an emoticon on it
2014-05-21T03:11:45Z zRecursive: hehe
2014-05-21T03:12:04Z pjb: (not (⇔ open-source makefile))
2014-05-21T03:12:10Z Bike: lemme blow your mind here http://ccl.clozure.com/ccl-documentation.html#building-ccl-from-source
2014-05-21T03:13:03Z zRecursive: ok
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2014-05-21T03:14:29Z ltbarcly: ahh, so it looks like sbcl is doing some 'optimization' that causes loop accumulation variables to behave very wierdly:
2014-05-21T03:14:41Z ltbarcly: clisp: (loop for i below 10 collect i into list when (evenp i) do (setf list nil) finally (return list))  => (9)
2014-05-21T03:14:55Z ltbarcly: sbcl: (loop for i below 10 collect i into list when (evenp i) do (setf list nil) finally (return list)) => (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
2014-05-21T03:15:40Z pjb: It is not conforming to modify the accumulation variables other than with collect/append/etc.
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2014-05-21T03:15:58Z ltbarcly: pjb: I can't find that in the spec when I look
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2014-05-21T03:17:52Z ltbarcly: all I can find is in 6.1.3: "The var argument is bound as if by the construct with."
2014-05-21T03:18:04Z ltbarcly: and modifying variables bound via with is fine
2014-05-21T03:18:25Z Bike: sbcl behaves like that because it maintains its own accumulation variable, which list is set to every run around. so the last loop goes like (setf list internal-list-thing) (if (evenp 9) ...) (return list) it's not an 'optimization'
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2014-05-21T03:21:27Z ltbarcly: Bike: I'm not complaining, and I'm even fine with that behavior, but I can't find anything in the spec to justify it, the behavior should be just as though the variable were bound in a with = clause
2014-05-21T03:22:36Z Bike: i'll leave the spec hunting to pjb. i'm just saying it's not like sbcl is specifically messing this up
2014-05-21T03:25:04Z ltbarcly: I don't know what you mean by 'specifically messing this up' vs 'messing this up', and I'm far from an expert, but the behavior in sbcl seems a bit odd
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2014-05-21T03:25:59Z pjb: ltbarcly: well right, it doesn't say.  Perhaps sbcl is not conforming there, but I wouldn't say so.  I mean, IMO it's a valid implementation strategy to use hidden variables to collect (eg. pushing on a list) and storing the resulting value only for the finally forms (nreversing the temp).
2014-05-21T03:26:29Z ltbarcly: pjb: it does say, it says the behavior should be exactly as though the variable were bound with "with var ="
2014-05-21T03:26:37Z pjb: Bike: notice that it's written that accumulation variables should be bound as if defined with WITH.
2014-05-21T03:26:57Z pjb: ltbarcly: this doesn't imply it should be updated at each step or even each clause!
2014-05-21T03:27:01Z ltbarcly: did I forget to mention that ? :)
2014-05-21T03:27:45Z ltbarcly: pjb: to me it just means that modifying it shouldn't behave differently than modifying a variable bound the other way
2014-05-21T03:28:01Z ltbarcly: but I guess that's the problem with any spec
2014-05-21T03:28:27Z pjb: Again, it depends on the implementation strategy.  I think sbcl's behavior is acceptable.
2014-05-21T03:29:37Z pjb: ltbarcly: you could identify the implementations that behave like that, and lobby them to switch to the other behavior.  Then when there will be a consensus, a CDR can be written, and a resolution for the next standardization iteration can be prepared.
2014-05-21T03:30:23Z ltbarcly: I think I'l just take up smoking, as I'll be dead before the next iteration, and this way it will be faster
2014-05-21T03:30:50Z pjb: ltbarcly: you can still be influencial of events occuring after your death!
2014-05-21T03:31:15Z ltbarcly: I mean to say, it's unlikely that there will ever be another official common lisp standard
2014-05-21T03:31:30Z pjb: Think about your children having to program in Common Lisp 2k80 in 2114!
2014-05-21T03:32:12Z ltbarcly: common lisp might be pretty cool, but if they are still using it in 2114 something has gone horribly wrong
2014-05-21T03:32:21Z ltbarcly: well, I say that, but odds are they'll still be using C
2014-05-21T03:32:26Z ltbarcly: which is more sadder
2014-05-21T03:32:33Z Zhivago: Nah. Javascript will have replaced C by then.
2014-05-21T03:32:33Z pjb: or C++.
2014-05-21T03:32:42Z pjb: I wouldn't count on it.
2014-05-21T03:32:52Z pjb: I mean, who will rewrite the linux kernel in Javascript?
2014-05-21T03:32:55Z ltbarcly: haha, javascript
2014-05-21T03:32:56Z Zhivago: Javascript is a real assembly macrolanguage, after all.
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2014-05-21T03:33:26Z Zhivago: Well, linux will be replaced by chrome at some point.
2014-05-21T03:33:48Z ltbarcly: I'm very excited about all the people using javascript when it could be avoided, as it removes them from the set of people able to productively write software, which means less competition for me
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2014-05-21T03:34:15Z Zhivago: A comforting delusion, I'm sure.
2014-05-21T03:34:51Z ltbarcly: nah, you're right, javascript is great!  you should use it
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2014-05-21T03:35:37Z pjb: Until you write (in Common Lisp!) tools to read in programs and intelligently convert them to another language (while correcting bugs, and removing inefficiencies), you can count on having to maintain some important programs in some quite old languages, running in some quite encapsulated virtual machines, for a long time.
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2014-05-21T03:36:10Z Zhivago: When did you see your last lisp 1.5 program running?
2014-05-21T03:36:35Z ltbarcly: pjb: you only need part of your requirement, as you can fix the bugs in 'the other' language
2014-05-21T03:36:52Z pjb: Five minutes ago: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html
2014-05-21T03:37:29Z pjb: But more seriously, when you use a lot of institutional web site, you're running a lot of legacy transactional COBOL code!
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2014-05-21T03:37:48Z Zhivago: That's only because cobol makes money.
2014-05-21T03:37:57Z pjb: You know, the kind of web sites where you have page after pages of forms, and in the end something's wrong and you have to start over again.
2014-05-21T03:37:59Z ltbarcly: making money is illegal, ask the secret service
2014-05-21T03:39:28Z ltbarcly: Zhivago: cobol just happens to be used by institutions that live a long time and have thin margins and very little competitive pressure to improve those systems, like banks
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2014-05-21T03:41:50Z ltbarcly: or hospitals
2014-05-21T03:44:12Z Zhivago: And coincidentally involve making lots of money.
2014-05-21T03:44:41Z Zhivago: It's more that there are strong pressures against breaking things that justify maintaining things as they are.
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2014-05-21T05:05:10Z ltbarcly: is there a more efficient way to remove the smallest/largest value from a list than using a combination of remove and min/max
2014-05-21T05:06:33Z zRecursive: clhs remove-if
2014-05-21T05:06:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm
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2014-05-21T05:08:37Z pjb: ltbarcly: your problem is totally underspecified.
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2014-05-21T05:10:01Z pjb: Do you want to modify the list, or to create a copy without those elements?  Do you want a copy in the same order for the remaining elements or not?
2014-05-21T05:10:13Z ltbarcly: pjb: I have a list of unique integers, I would rather have the same list sans the smallest entry.  currently I am sorting the list and then using rest on the sorted list, but that is far less efficient than just finding the smallest entry and removing it.  using min and then remove would require two passes over the lsit
2014-05-21T05:10:36Z pjb: You can do it in a single pass.
2014-05-21T05:10:39Z ltbarcly: pjb: destructive is fine, order doesn't matter
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2014-05-21T05:10:55Z pjb: So the answer is yes, there is a more efficient way.
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2014-05-21T05:12:28Z ltbarcly: I could just use loop, remember the node preceding the current minimum value, and then splice the list to remove the minimum node, but often in CL there is a way to do things more nicely than just writing the logic procedurally
2014-05-21T05:12:46Z pjb: You asked for more efficient, not for nicer.
2014-05-21T05:14:14Z pjb: Also in the underspecified department, you didn't specify if by efficient you meant processor efficient, programmer time efficient, capital investment efficient, energy efficient or whatever you mean, so I'm afraid we're still speaking in a vacuum.
2014-05-21T05:15:31Z ltbarcly: I would like to give you enough information, but I'm not sure what you mean by processor, programmer, capital, energy
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2014-05-21T05:16:29Z ltbarcly: I'm also not certain you are speaking english and not another language that just happens to make sense if interpreted as english over the course of the conversation so far
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2014-05-21T05:18:10Z ltbarcly: until we establish that, I can't even be sure if you are asking me questions or ordering lunch
2014-05-21T05:19:57Z zRecursive: :)
2014-05-21T05:20:29Z zRecursive: ltbarcly: Doesnot #'remove-if work ?
2014-05-21T05:21:15Z ltbarcly: zRecursive: remove-if only takes a function which is called with the current value of each entry in the list, so before using it you would have to use min to find the smallest element
2014-05-21T05:21:26Z ltbarcly: I think, I'm not really sure, but that's what it looked like
2014-05-21T05:22:03Z zRecursive: Anyway you need a way to find the smallest/biggest one
2014-05-21T05:23:08Z ltbarcly: yea, using #'min function can do that
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2014-05-21T05:24:10Z pjb: ltbarcly: what's more efficient from a programmer point of view is the program that is the easiest to write correctly.  What's most efficient for the capitalist that backs the programmer work, if any, is the program that gives the better ROI (ie. it may be less easy to write, it may be less correct, but it should bring back more money). What's energitically efficient are algorithms that spare the battery power.  THey are often
2014-05-21T05:24:10Z pjb: surprisingly different from time/space asymptotically efficient algorithms.
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2014-05-21T05:25:12Z pjb: Also, efficiency can depend on the size of the data considered.  If your list is always 3 elements, it may be more efficient to use if and < from all points of view than remove…
2014-05-21T05:25:57Z ltbarcly: pjb: ok :)  I don't like the idea of stitching the list by keeping a reference to the previous cell and then stitching out the cell holding the min value because I'm pretty sure it will be somewhat tedious and probably I'll mess it up
2014-05-21T05:26:08Z pjb: So basically, since you are not communicating about all those design constraints, you are the single person in the whole universe able to know whether or not there is a more "efficient" way to do "what you want to do" andbasically you're just making us lose our time.
2014-05-21T05:26:26Z Bike: http://paste.lisp.org/+3223
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2014-05-21T05:26:53Z Bike: man i really could use a "put this shit on pastelisp" sorta emacsery.
2014-05-21T05:26:56Z pjb: ltbarcly: but if that's the efficiency you're after and your list is big, it may be the only way to provide good ROI, or even to be able to produce a commercializable product at all!
2014-05-21T05:27:04Z pjb: But again, you're not saying.
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2014-05-21T05:27:13Z Bike: as evidenced by the shitty indentation there. anyway, there's my shot at it, ltbarcly.
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2014-05-21T05:27:55Z pjb: Bike you can simplify by processing (cons nil list) instead of list.
2014-05-21T05:28:06Z pjb: cons is O(1) with a small constant.
2014-05-21T05:28:18Z ltbarcly: pjb: I think you're being pedantic just to give me a hard time for some reason, and nothing I say will not result in being chastised for under specifying the question
2014-05-21T05:28:35Z Bike: hm, maybe.
2014-05-21T05:28:39Z pjb: You're saying that I'm good a telepathy.
2014-05-21T05:30:07Z Bike: well, that means you have to do an allocation and you can't start with "= (first list)", i guess. too nontrivial for me to think about here
2014-05-21T05:30:22Z pjb: ltbarcly: I'm suscipiscious because you didn't ask about how to do it in a single pass, and you seem to know how it would be done, and for some reason you don't want to do it.
2014-05-21T05:31:58Z ltbarcly: so maybe my real question should have been: "I'm not totally familiar with all the built in functions in common lisp, often there is one that solves or almost solves problems around list manipulation, maybe I'm reinventing the wheel if I solved this from whole cloth..."
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2014-05-21T05:35:16Z samebchase: Have you guys (and girls) seen this: http://lamberta.github.io/minispec/index.html ?
2014-05-21T05:35:59Z Bike: oh, i suppose you start with second instead. well, that's what i get for thinking
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2014-05-21T05:37:02Z Bike: ltbarcly: my answer is that your original question was fine and pjb's just pjbing a bit. i don't think there is a standard function to do what you want and there's my attempt at implementing it.
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2014-05-21T05:37:26Z ltbarcly: Bike: I'm staring at your answer now, working through it slowly :)
2014-05-21T05:37:47Z Bike: well just run it on a few inputs and tell me if it breaks
2014-05-21T05:38:18Z Bike: when i write a long loop i end up leaving it as opaque
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2014-05-21T05:43:46Z pjb: ltbarcly: indeed, this is a clearer question.  No, there's no standard function to perform exactly what you want, you will have to write some code yourself.
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2014-05-21T05:51:25Z pjb: I find that when doing both in the same loop (as "requested"), one has to distinguish different cases at the end: http://paste.lisp.org/+3224
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2014-05-21T06:05:01Z Sir_herrbatka: greetings
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2014-05-21T06:05:27Z Sir_herrbatka: i have a problem understanding lexical scoping
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2014-05-21T06:06:17Z Zhivago: Please ask a specific question about it.
2014-05-21T06:06:44Z Sir_herrbatka: that is, why i can't bound value to the symbol and try to retrive it with symbol-value
2014-05-21T06:06:47Z Sir_herrbatka: for instance
2014-05-21T06:06:59Z Sir_herrbatka: how it is implemented?
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2014-05-21T06:07:30Z Zhivago: symbol-value does not access lexical variables.
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2014-05-21T06:08:03Z Zhivago: It accesses dynamic/global variables.
2014-05-21T06:08:26Z Sir_herrbatka: yes i know
2014-05-21T06:08:30Z Zhivago: That's why you can't.
2014-05-21T06:08:43Z Sir_herrbatka: but why it dosent?
2014-05-21T06:08:54Z Sir_herrbatka: why it is destinction here?
2014-05-21T06:08:56Z Zhivago: Because that's not how lexical variables work.
2014-05-21T06:08:59Z Sir_herrbatka: how to think about it?
2014-05-21T06:09:15Z Zhivago: A lexical variable is named with a symbol, that's all.
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2014-05-21T06:09:31Z Zhivago: The variable is not the symbol -- the symbol is just its name in that lexical environment.
2014-05-21T06:09:47Z Sir_herrbatka: hmmm
2014-05-21T06:09:48Z Zhivago: With dynamic/global variables, the symbol is also the variable.
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2014-05-21T06:09:50Z Sir_herrbatka: right
2014-05-21T06:10:03Z Sir_herrbatka: !!!
2014-05-21T06:10:13Z Sir_herrbatka: now, that makes sense
2014-05-21T06:10:20Z Sir_herrbatka: thanks :-)
2014-05-21T06:10:26Z Zhivago: You're welcome.
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2014-05-21T06:11:20Z Sir_herrbatka: so there is no way to get value bounded to the symbol (it seems to not be correct, but you know what i mean) with let?
2014-05-21T06:11:48Z Zhivago: There is no value bounded to the symbol with let (unless the variable is special).
2014-05-21T06:11:49Z ggole: There's no value bound to the symbol
2014-05-21T06:12:06Z Zhivago: There is a value bounded to the variable named by that symbol with let.
2014-05-21T06:12:09Z Sir_herrbatka: yeah, i know
2014-05-21T06:12:18Z Zhivago: Then you need to fix your question so that it is not incorrect.
2014-05-21T06:12:21Z ggole: Lexical bindings are entirely abstract by design
2014-05-21T06:13:06Z ggole: The compiler is free to implement them however it sees fit: in a register, on the stack, in a data structure, folded into a computation, elided completely, whatever.
2014-05-21T06:14:06Z Zhivago: Well, the same applies to symbol-value, really.
2014-05-21T06:14:14Z Zhivago: I don't think that's a compelling argument.
2014-05-21T06:14:32Z Zhivago: It's more that lexical variables aren't first class entities, but dynamic/global variables are.
2014-05-21T06:14:46Z Sir_herrbatka: Zhivago: how to retrive variable value named by symbol?
2014-05-21T06:15:15Z Sir_herrbatka: is that even possible
2014-05-21T06:15:16Z Sir_herrbatka: ?
2014-05-21T06:15:25Z Zhivago: sir: Sure, use a dictionary of lexical closures.
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2014-05-21T06:15:42Z Sir_herrbatka: at this point i don't know how, but thanks
2014-05-21T06:15:46Z Sir_herrbatka: i will note this
2014-05-21T06:16:04Z Zhivago: (cond ((eq name 'bar) bar) for example.
2014-05-21T06:16:16Z Sir_herrbatka: ah
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2014-05-21T06:16:28Z Zhivago: Or (cond ((eq name 'bar) (lambda () bar)) to produce a function to look up the variable bar in that lexical environment.
2014-05-21T06:16:55Z Sir_herrbatka: but i need to know the name on the compile time
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2014-05-21T06:17:08Z ggole: What are you actually trying to do?
2014-05-21T06:17:16Z Sir_herrbatka: ggole: understand
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2014-05-21T06:17:28Z Zhivago: What problem are you trying to solve with this technique?
2014-05-21T06:17:57Z Sir_herrbatka: Zhivago: none, actually, i'm just trying to understand lexical scoping
2014-05-21T06:17:58Z ggole: Well, playing around with symbol-value and just the variable name should help clear some things up
2014-05-21T06:18:30Z Zhivago: Then you don't need to know the name at compile-time.
2014-05-21T06:18:30Z Sir_herrbatka: belive it or not, it is not really clear ;-)
2014-05-21T06:19:02Z Zhivago: Well, lexical scope just means that 'for this region of the source code, this name refers to this variable'.
2014-05-21T06:19:05Z ggole: Actually never mind, that's functions -_-
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2014-05-21T06:19:12Z Zhivago: That's why it's lexical. :)
2014-05-21T06:20:03Z Sir_herrbatka: very well
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2014-05-21T06:22:32Z zRecursive: (let ((abc 1)) (princ (symbol-value 'abc))) => Error: Unbound variable: ABC
2014-05-21T06:22:36Z pjb: Sir_herrbatka: by definition, lexical means that you knows it at compilation time!
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2014-05-21T06:23:09Z pjb: Sir_herrbatka: if you didn't know it at compilation time, it would not be lexical, and if it is lexical then you know it at compilation time.
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2014-05-21T06:23:34Z Sir_herrbatka: pjb: no need to shout -_-'
2014-05-21T06:23:47Z pjb: Where did I shout?
2014-05-21T06:23:56Z Sir_herrbatka: by definition, lexical means that you knows it at compilation time!
2014-05-21T06:24:05Z pjb: Indeed!
2014-05-21T06:24:08Z Zhivago: LISP IS ALL ABOUT SHOUTING.
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2014-05-21T06:24:16Z Sir_herrbatka: AH, SORRY
2014-05-21T06:24:21Z Sir_herrbatka: I DIDN'T KNEW THAT
2014-05-21T06:24:23Z Zhivago: That's why traditionally there were no lower-case letters.
2014-05-21T06:24:31Z zRecursive: Sir_herrbatka: why is the code error ?
2014-05-21T06:24:36Z Sir_herrbatka: I WILL TRY TO BE MORE LISP WAY FROM NOW
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2014-05-21T06:24:44Z Zhivago: These days it is polite to pretend that you are not shouting -- the compiler can do it for you.
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2014-05-21T06:25:18Z Sir_herrbatka: Unbound variable: ABC same as you pasted ofc
2014-05-21T06:25:30Z Sir_herrbatka: Zhivago: i feel relieved
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2014-05-21T06:26:11Z zRecursive: the key is why it is "Unbound" ?
2014-05-21T06:26:31Z Zhivago: Try (defvar abc 10)
2014-05-21T06:26:46Z Sir_herrbatka: Zhivago: already tried that
2014-05-21T06:26:59Z Zhivago: And?
2014-05-21T06:27:05Z Sir_herrbatka: that's why dynamic scope is dynamic
2014-05-21T06:27:17Z Sir_herrbatka: it can be used on the runtime
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2014-05-21T06:31:56Z ggole: Most uses of dynamic scope don't involve symbol-value, though
2014-05-21T06:32:01Z ggole: (If that's what you meant.)
2014-05-21T06:33:49Z H4ns: i think that many of CL's operations that deal with symbols should be ignored nowadays.  like symbol-value, symbol property lists etc.  they're from a time when there was no lexical scope.
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2014-05-21T06:35:23Z Zhivago: They're important for linkage.
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2014-05-21T06:35:36Z H4ns: Zhivago: what do you mean?
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2014-05-21T06:36:25Z zRecursive: (let ((abc 1)) (declare (special abc)) (princ (symbol-value 'abc))) => 1
2014-05-21T06:36:43Z Zhivago: Well, when you load two files, they link together via those global symbols -- that's why unbound symbols are important.
2014-05-21T06:37:04Z Zhivago: It's how things like defvar can reach a consensus on what value they have.
2014-05-21T06:37:34Z Zhivago: zrecursive: Does that surprise you?
2014-05-21T06:37:46Z H4ns: Zhivago: yes, understood.  when i'm said "should be ignored", i really meant "not be used for user programs".
2014-05-21T06:37:55Z zRecursive: Zhivago: maybe you :)
2014-05-21T06:37:56Z Zhivago: Fair enough.
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2014-05-21T06:38:19Z Zhivago: zrecursive: Just trying to figure out if you have a point or are just contributing at random.
2014-05-21T06:38:53Z zRecursive: hope showing sth
2014-05-21T06:39:39Z zRecursive: i always feel code helps make questions much clear
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2014-05-21T11:54:21Z Sir_herrbatka: how usually lisp lexical bounding is implemented?
2014-05-21T11:54:25Z Sir_herrbatka: stack?
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2014-05-21T11:57:18Z nyef: Lexical bindings are approximately equivalent to local variables in other programming languages, and so the usual implementation techniques apply.
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2014-05-21T11:57:54Z nyef: Except, of course, for lexical bindings in the function namespace.
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2014-05-21T12:00:12Z ggole: Stack allocation is insufficient in the general case, although there are many variables for which it works fine.
2014-05-21T12:01:00Z nyef: Stack allocation is always sufficient for the BINDINGS (and, in fact, can be overkill at times), not necessarily for the values.
2014-05-21T12:01:22Z nyef: Oh, wait, closures. Right.
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2014-05-21T12:02:04Z nyef: Unless the closure is DX then you need to heap allocate the variable storage for closed-over variables.
2014-05-21T12:02:17Z ggole: DX?
2014-05-21T12:02:25Z nyef: Dynamic-eXtent.
2014-05-21T12:02:29Z ggole: Only escapes upwards or not at all?
2014-05-21T12:02:36Z ggole: Oh, of course.
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2014-05-21T12:08:15Z Sir_herrbatka: oh god
2014-05-21T12:08:26Z Sir_herrbatka: making a lisp implementation sounds like fun!
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2014-05-21T12:10:48Z dim: wait until handler-bind and restart-case! ;-)
2014-05-21T12:11:28Z dim: or even just defun actually, I don't know how the cl implementations get around to replacing the code segments at run-time
2014-05-21T12:12:03Z nyef: Handler-bind and restart-case are portably implementable, provided that you actually use condition objects in ERROR and friends.
2014-05-21T12:13:17Z dim: it sounded more complex than that, ok
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2014-05-21T12:22:08Z Sir_herrbatka: it is complex
2014-05-21T12:22:10Z Sir_herrbatka: very very complex
2014-05-21T12:22:46Z Sir_herrbatka: at least when compared to the c world
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2014-05-21T12:44:05Z dim: you mean using the facilities or implementing them?
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2014-05-21T12:50:52Z Denommus: I managed to update my asdf
2014-05-21T12:51:04Z Denommus: just cloned it into ~/.local/share/common-lisp/source
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2014-05-21T13:00:04Z Denommus: (it didn't work with clisp, but then, clisp sucks)
2014-05-21T13:01:16Z Sir_herrbatka: dim: implementation
2014-05-21T13:03:08Z Sir_herrbatka: but using as well, maybe it becomes easier at some point
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2014-05-21T13:07:23Z Sir_herrbatka: and what about memory managment?
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2014-05-21T13:08:03Z Sir_herrbatka: compilers principle and technique 2nd edition says that all lisp data types are uniform in size
2014-05-21T13:08:17Z Sir_herrbatka: but it states that it is valid to the "pure" lisp
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2014-05-21T13:08:27Z Sir_herrbatka: and i
2014-05-21T13:08:38Z Sir_herrbatka: and i'm kinda confused by it
2014-05-21T13:08:40Z interlocutor: lol clisp sucks?
2014-05-21T13:08:52Z interlocutor: kbro
2014-05-21T13:08:58Z nyef: The "Red Dragon Book" can be confuzzling, yes.
2014-05-21T13:09:37Z nyef: Most values are either references (pointers) or immediate (fit in a pointer-sized space).
2014-05-21T13:10:12Z Sir_herrbatka: that sounds more valid to the CL
2014-05-21T13:10:20Z nyef: But beyond that, the things referred to (pointed to) can be of fairly arbitrary size.
2014-05-21T13:10:32Z Sir_herrbatka: right
2014-05-21T13:10:45Z Sir_herrbatka slaps the dragon
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2014-05-21T13:11:22Z Denommus: interlocutor: it's definitely not the best Common Lisp implementation. It is slow, it is GPL, and it uses an old as hell version of ASDF
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2014-05-21T13:12:09Z Denommus: interlocutor: if I'd have to choose a best, it would be SBCL for *nix and Clozure for Windows. ECL if you want to call C or be called from C
2014-05-21T13:12:21Z JuanDaugherty: why is GPL bad?
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2014-05-21T13:13:01Z p_l|backup: ... depends who you ask
2014-05-21T13:13:09Z daimrod: please, no GPL vs *.
2014-05-21T13:13:12Z p_l|backup: ^
2014-05-21T13:13:18Z JuanDaugherty: Denommus, why is GPL bad?
2014-05-21T13:13:30Z theos: what is gpl
2014-05-21T13:13:34Z p_l|backup: JuanDaugherty: it's a matter of personal political opinion?
2014-05-21T13:13:46Z p_l|backup: and let's keep at at that
2014-05-21T13:13:47Z Xach: clisp is better than it used to be, and better than nothing, but it is not one of the better CL implementations.
2014-05-21T13:13:50Z theos: just kidding :P
2014-05-21T13:13:55Z interlocutor: i use SBCL for my own projects, but I'm just saying, clisp isn't that bad man, there's lots of great lisp software written in clisp
2014-05-21T13:14:01Z JuanDaugherty: it was stated with two other flat facts
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2014-05-21T13:14:58Z JuanDaugherty: or actually it was the simple fact with two value judgments, so was trying to understand why it's bad
2014-05-21T13:15:14Z Denommus`: my connection dropped
2014-05-21T13:15:20Z Denommus`: did anyone tell me anything?
2014-05-21T13:15:24Z Xach: interlocutor: really? what are some examples? i don't know that much about clisp aside from my personal frustration with it.
2014-05-21T13:15:42Z JuanDaugherty: presuming it's correct and clisp is in fact GPL, which I assume it is
2014-05-21T13:16:14Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-05-21T13:16:16Z interlocutor: hunchentoot is clisp, for one
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2014-05-21T13:16:28Z JuanDaugherty: wat?
2014-05-21T13:16:44Z Denommus`: interlocutor: what are you talking about? Hunchentoot can run in any Common Lisp implementation
2014-05-21T13:16:58Z p_l|backup: interlocutor: hunchentoot is not related to CLISP... afaik, LispWorks was the original implentation it was running on?
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2014-05-21T13:17:42Z p_l|backup: Edi Weitz did a lot of stuff with LW as implementation of choice, afaik
2014-05-21T13:17:47Z interlocutor: I thought hunchentoot was written in clisp
2014-05-21T13:17:53Z interlocutor: my bad
2014-05-21T13:18:01Z stassats: conversational lisp? no
2014-05-21T13:18:08Z Zhivago: You're confusing the language (CL) with an implementation (CLISP).
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2014-05-21T13:18:22Z interlocutor: no no, I I know the distinction
2014-05-21T13:18:33Z Zhivago: Then how can you say written in CLISP?
2014-05-21T13:18:54Z interlocutor: *for
2014-05-21T13:18:55Z Denommus: Zhivago: he probably means developed to support clisp
2014-05-21T13:19:15Z Denommus: Zhivago: when I do something, I usually support only SBCL and, at most, Clozure
2014-05-21T13:19:16Z Zhivago: Well, that's consistent now, at least.
2014-05-21T13:19:49Z stassats: if hunchentoot were written for clisp, it wouldn't be using threads so extensively
2014-05-21T13:20:08Z interlocutor: maybe I have my lisp software histories wrong
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2014-05-21T13:20:25Z interlocutor: I thought hunchentoot started off as a project for Yahoo
2014-05-21T13:20:31Z interlocutor: or was derived from it
2014-05-21T13:20:35Z stassats: oh boy
2014-05-21T13:20:42Z interlocutor: and that program for Yahoo was written for clisp
2014-05-21T13:20:43Z p_l|backup: interlocutor: you're way off
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2014-05-21T13:21:08Z interlocutor: ok
2014-05-21T13:21:16Z p_l|backup: CLISP was used by Paul Graham for Viaweb, which was sold to Yahoo, but afaik it ran as CGI application behind a normal web server
2014-05-21T13:21:27Z interlocutor: my bad guys
2014-05-21T13:21:52Z interlocutor: this is what happens when most of what you know of lisp history comes from mailing lists and forums
2014-05-21T13:22:09Z interlocutor: thank you for correcting me
2014-05-21T13:22:15Z p_l|backup: hunchentoot (originally TBNL, iirc?) is a HTTP server written (originally?) by Edi Weitz, and I think the original implementation used was LispWorks, though it's quite portable
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2014-05-21T13:22:38Z stassats: tbnl means "to be named later"
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2014-05-21T13:24:23Z p_l|backup: heh
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2014-05-21T13:25:24Z gadmyth: deprecated
2014-05-21T13:25:32Z gadmyth: tbnl
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2014-05-21T13:26:18Z interlocutor: ok, so I was wrong and clisp is actually pretty crap
2014-05-21T13:26:32Z oleo: lol
2014-05-21T13:26:49Z oleo: morning
2014-05-21T13:26:54Z Denommus`: interlocutor: and seriously, even if hunchentoot was written specifically for clisp, it wouldn't make the implementation "better", it would just mean that the hunchentoot author took a bad decision
2014-05-21T13:27:00Z interlocutor: I originally learned lisp through Land of Lisp and that game me the impression is was p cool
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2014-05-21T13:27:17Z oleo: it is, but afaik it's not continued......
2014-05-21T13:27:20Z heddwch: clisp isn't necessarily crap, but it is currently quite dead
2014-05-21T13:27:26Z loke__: interlocutor: Yes. It is cool.
2014-05-21T13:27:27Z oleo: jep
2014-05-21T13:27:39Z loke__: I mean, Lisp is cool.
2014-05-21T13:27:49Z loke__: Clisp is not the best implementation by a long shot
2014-05-21T13:28:16Z Odin-: Which is 'the best'? :)
2014-05-21T13:28:29Z heddwch: Well, depends what you're defining as 'best'. Clisp is very portable, which is a strength.
2014-05-21T13:28:31Z oleo: sbcl and ccl i assume....
2014-05-21T13:28:33Z loke__: Odin-: that depends on your needs
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2014-05-21T13:28:51Z Odin-: loke__: Right answer. :)
2014-05-21T13:28:56Z loke__: As for portability, I'd argue ABCL is a better choice there, since it works on all platforms that has Java
2014-05-21T13:29:11Z Odin-: And you're arguing Clisp is never it?
2014-05-21T13:29:12Z Denommus: loke__: hm, no, ECL is better in that regard
2014-05-21T13:29:35Z Denommus: loke__: ABCL doesn't run on Dalvik, while ECL run anywhere that C can run (and has enough memory for a CL)
2014-05-21T13:29:37Z loke__: Odin-: Clisp has one benefit that I can think of: It ships with readline support.
2014-05-21T13:30:02Z Denommus: loke__: that is a negligible benefit, specially if you use SLIME
2014-05-21T13:30:04Z heddwch: Making clisp the best choice if you want to use it as a shell >:D
2014-05-21T13:30:07Z loke__: Denommus: True, but it does run on SPARC, AIX, and, I presume, even on z/OP
2014-05-21T13:30:09Z loke__: z/OS
2014-05-21T13:30:26Z oleo: otherwise when you are on the portability side try ecl too
2014-05-21T13:30:27Z Denommus: loke__: can't ECL run on those, too?
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2014-05-21T13:30:48Z oleo: ecl ran on arm a few years ago for me....
2014-05-21T13:31:07Z heddwch: I'll have to poke about with ecl, but I know clisp also has very low memory consumption.
2014-05-21T13:31:40Z heddwch: oleo: CCL has arm support, and SBCL is working on it (afaik, already working in version control)
2014-05-21T13:31:55Z oleo: yes i know i read the emails.....
2014-05-21T13:32:03Z Denommus: oleo: it does run on ARM. And Android
2014-05-21T13:32:09Z oleo: erm the mailing-lists i meant....
2014-05-21T13:32:21Z heddwch: oleo: Good, then =p
2014-05-21T13:32:47Z Denommus: heddwch: SBCL on ARM would be amazing :-D
2014-05-21T13:32:56Z oleo: yes
2014-05-21T13:33:04Z loke__: Denommus: Doubt it. I had lots of problems getting ECL to run on SPARC some time ago
2014-05-21T13:33:07Z oleo: it works for andoird platforms already i read.....
2014-05-21T13:33:11Z oleo: android*
2014-05-21T13:33:13Z loke__: ABCL runs beautifully on anything with a JVM
2014-05-21T13:33:18Z stassats: Denommus: it's not _would_, it _is_
2014-05-21T13:33:22Z heddwch: Denommus: Yea :) Looking forward to not running CCL on my RPi any more
2014-05-21T13:33:34Z nyef: I've never run CCL on my RPi.
2014-05-21T13:33:43Z Krystof: heddwch: out of interest, why?
2014-05-21T13:34:19Z heddwch: Krystof: Just for the sake of consistency; I'm using SBCL everywhere else. Nothing wrong with CCL.
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2014-05-21T13:34:26Z Krystof: fair enough
2014-05-21T13:34:41Z Krystof: I can put up a binary if you'd like to play
2014-05-21T13:34:52Z Krystof: in an hour or so, once it finishes building
2014-05-21T13:34:55Z heddwch: :o I'd appreciate that
2014-05-21T13:35:03Z oleo: abcl should be best then on android.....
2014-05-21T13:35:06Z nyef: Or you can see if cross-building from CCL works.
2014-05-21T13:35:11Z loke__: I really enjoy SBCL because I am starting to understand its internals a bit. :-)
2014-05-21T13:35:21Z Denommus: oleo: ABCL doesn't run on Dalvik
2014-05-21T13:35:27Z oleo: why ?
2014-05-21T13:35:35Z loke__: oleo: Because Dalvik is not a JVM
2014-05-21T13:36:11Z oleo: yes but getting the jvm on android is not an issue i think.....
2014-05-21T13:36:13Z loke__: ABCL does things like generate classes on the fly. Dalvik requires all code to be available during the dexing procedure.
2014-05-21T13:36:25Z heddwch: oleo: Dalvik runs converted bytecode with a nonstandard library
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2014-05-21T13:36:37Z oleo: allright ok then
2014-05-21T13:36:47Z Odin-: Android isn't Java, it's just close enough that most Java code can deal with it.
2014-05-21T13:37:02Z heddwch: Ah, didn't know about the no code generation bit
2014-05-21T13:37:15Z Denommus: oleo: because it uses some specific calls from the traditional JVM
2014-05-21T13:37:15Z Denommus: oleo: I guess it is simply easier to use ECL
2014-05-21T13:37:15Z Denommus: loke__: oh, yeah, those calls
2014-05-21T13:37:16Z Denommus: maybe with ART that will change
2014-05-21T13:37:41Z loke__: Denommus: I doubt it. You're still dexing before creating the .apk
2014-05-21T13:37:42Z nyef: ISTR hearing about generating Dalvik bytecode directly instead of going via Java bytecode working? Was that incorrect?
2014-05-21T13:37:47Z oleo: jep, ecl was really up and go, really easy....thence even....
2014-05-21T13:38:31Z loke__: nyef: Lisp still needs to be able to dynamically generate code. I'm not sure the Android (Dalvik) security model would allow that.
2014-05-21T13:38:36Z oleo: porting it was not difficult for them it seems.....
2014-05-21T13:38:56Z loke__: Did ECL find a new maintainer?
2014-05-21T13:39:21Z oleo: i don't know , i tried to use it a few times.....
2014-05-21T13:39:25Z stassats: flip214 did some work
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2014-05-21T13:39:48Z stassats: there needs to be a release made, there are some fixes
2014-05-21T13:39:49Z oleo: i got to the repl with it but didn't do any fancy stuff to test for persistency or some such.....
2014-05-21T13:40:02Z loke__: Doesn't the ECL compiler delegate to gcc?
2014-05-21T13:40:08Z oleo: yes
2014-05-21T13:40:10Z oleo: afaik
2014-05-21T13:40:20Z stassats: loke__: not necessarily
2014-05-21T13:40:22Z loke__: How does that work on Android? Or is it purely using interpreted mode?
2014-05-21T13:40:23Z oleo: delegate ?
2014-05-21T13:40:25Z oleo: wait
2014-05-21T13:40:26Z oleo: no
2014-05-21T13:40:38Z Denommus: loke__: it delegates to a C compiler
2014-05-21T13:40:41Z stassats: loke__: byte-code and interpretation
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2014-05-21T13:41:02Z oleo: ah
2014-05-21T13:41:35Z loke__: Right... And on mobile platforms one tends to waste battery if it can't run compiled. CCL or SBCL does sound like much better options then?
2014-05-21T13:41:59Z oleo: sounds like it.....
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2014-05-21T13:43:35Z Denommus: stassats: are you sure you can't call Android's GCC to compile ECL code? I'm almost sure you can
2014-05-21T13:43:57Z loke__: Denommus: But the compiler is a cross-compiler. It's not available on Android itself.
2014-05-21T13:44:34Z Denommus: loke__: yeah, but you do can call it and deploy the generated byte-code
2014-05-21T13:44:47Z Denommus: loke__: s/byte-code/assembly/
2014-05-21T13:44:58Z Denommus is not sure, though. Long time without touching ECL for Android
2014-05-21T13:45:19Z loke__: Denommus: I'd much rather see a native SBCL or CCL :-)
2014-05-21T13:45:49Z loke__: stassats: How many man-hours would you estimate it would take to do an ARM port, and get it ready to the point where it runs on Android?
2014-05-21T13:46:06Z stassats: 0 hours
2014-05-21T13:46:11Z Denommus: loke__: the thing is that ECL is easily callable from C++, so you could use it as a embedded scripting language, for instance
2014-05-21T13:46:19Z loke__: stardiviner: For SBCL?
2014-05-21T13:46:32Z loke__: I mean stassats
2014-05-21T13:46:32Z stassats: yes, it's already ported to ARM
2014-05-21T13:46:37Z loke__: stassats: Really?
2014-05-21T13:46:50Z stassats: no, i would be pulling your leg
2014-05-21T13:47:13Z Denommus: loke__: it's on the repository's trunk
2014-05-21T13:47:15Z Denommus: loke__: it will probably be tagged soon
2014-05-21T13:47:18Z loke__: Oh cool
2014-05-21T13:47:28Z stassats: not for android, though
2014-05-21T13:47:45Z loke__: stassats: Well, that's the easy part
2014-05-21T13:47:45Z stassats: that would entail figuring how much of libc android's libc is missing
2014-05-21T13:47:58Z loke__: easyER
2014-05-21T13:48:09Z Odin-: Hrm.
2014-05-21T13:48:30Z Odin-: It's not glibc, but doesn't it do ISO9899?
2014-05-21T13:48:54Z loke__: Odin-: it does
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2014-05-21T13:49:49Z Denommus: stassats: can't SBCL exchange this kind of information with Clozure? Weren't them successful in building for Android?
2014-05-21T13:50:33Z stassats: they may have made something working on android, but they do not maintain it
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2014-05-21T13:52:33Z Denommus: oh
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2014-05-21T14:23:22Z nicdev: nyef: i tried to cross build SBCL last night with CCL but some contribs were failing. don't remember at the top of my head, what contrib. Will take a look again later today
2014-05-21T14:23:51Z nyef: sb-gmp and sb-mpfr?
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2014-05-21T14:26:23Z nicdev: i think sb-gmp, will verify later when i get back home on the Pi. i know it's not sb-mpfr cause that is what as failing on my ubuntu x86 and the issues between the two builds were different
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2014-05-21T14:53:35Z gingerale: Ahah, I'm finally learning emacs in order to practice and write Common Lisp in it. And I had such a "woah" moment when I figured out the buffer switching.
2014-05-21T14:54:19Z gingerale: And now I'm wondering if vim has something like that too
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2014-05-21T14:55:04Z splittist: gingerale: in general, if emacs has it, vim has it. They just come at it from a different direction.
2014-05-21T14:56:01Z dlowe: I find the buffer and window handling in vim to be awful
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2014-05-21T14:56:05Z dlowe: or at least I did before I switched
2014-05-21T14:56:27Z gingerale: Yeah, I've had issues with vim's splits before. I just tend to open a separate terminal tab instead.
2014-05-21T14:56:38Z gingerale: But it felt oddly comfortable when I tried it on emacs
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2014-05-21T14:57:32Z puchacz_: hi, in the newest slime I have a warning on emacs startup, not sure if it is harmful: Warning: function `cl-fourth' from cl package called at runtime
2014-05-21T14:57:43Z puchacz_: and Warning: function `cl-nreconc' from cl package called at runtime
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2014-05-21T14:59:50Z Bike: puchacz_: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2012-12/msg00051.html looks like silliness
2014-05-21T15:00:24Z puchacz_: Bike, thx. I will use the workaround to muffle it
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2014-05-21T15:00:49Z Odin-: Symptom of RMS's distaste for CL, isn't it?
2014-05-21T15:01:00Z puchacz_: ha
2014-05-21T15:01:11Z puchacz_: I was wondering why emacs was not written in CL in the first place :-)
2014-05-21T15:01:18Z puchacz_: btw, it muffled it
2014-05-21T15:01:32Z Odin-: Well, one reason is that it's older than CL...
2014-05-21T15:01:50Z Zhivago: Excuses ...
2014-05-21T15:01:51Z puchacz_: many CL programs are older like Maxima but they were ported
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2014-05-21T15:02:26Z puchacz_: CL is not that different from previous lisps for what I remember in CLtL2 book
2014-05-21T15:02:33Z Odin-: Yes, but GNU Emacs was written as a Lisp implementation, not a Lisp program.
2014-05-21T15:03:10Z puchacz_: even xemacs that was a late offshot is not in CL :-(
2014-05-21T15:03:39Z Odin-: Because XEmacs was a GNU Emacs fork, not a start-from-scratch.
2014-05-21T15:03:55Z Zhivago: There's always hemlock.
2014-05-21T15:03:57Z puchacz_: and Climacs is not getting any traction
2014-05-21T15:04:04Z puchacz_: neither is hemlock
2014-05-21T15:04:14Z Zhivago: The most likely reason for emacs not being written in CL is that emacs is popular.
2014-05-21T15:04:28Z puchacz_: so is CL :-)
2014-05-21T15:04:37Z Zhivago: And it wouldn't have become popular were it written in CL at the time it was becoming popular.
2014-05-21T15:05:05Z Zhivago: And now that it is popular, there's no real incentive to rewrite it in CL.
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2014-05-21T15:05:21Z puchacz_: no, CL - imho - contrary to the meme - is a really popular language
2014-05-21T15:06:07Z puchacz_: maybe CL was not popular when Paul Graham was writing his essays but it is now, it has been popular for many years
2014-05-21T15:06:16Z eudoxia: CL? popular?
2014-05-21T15:06:27Z Zhivago: Much like milk flavoured soft-drink.
2014-05-21T15:06:32Z Odin-: Zhivago: What do you consider to be the time Emacs was becoming popular?
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2014-05-21T15:07:09Z eudoxia: the occasional HN front page post about Common Lisp doesn't really classify as popular
2014-05-21T15:07:12Z puchacz_: of course. CL has an image of being an esoteric language, but far from the truth. look at libraries, look at sbcl - millions of man-hours went into it
2014-05-21T15:07:18Z Zhivago: Odin: the 80's, surely?
2014-05-21T15:07:51Z Zhivago: puchacz: What does the number of man hours put into something have to do with popularity?
2014-05-21T15:08:14Z puchacz_: many people working on it = popular
2014-05-21T15:08:17Z stassats: millions?
2014-05-21T15:08:23Z puchacz_: I would say so
2014-05-21T15:08:25Z gingerale: Coming from QBasic -> Pascal -> Java -> C/C++ background and now starting to learn Common Lisp it feels like I have to turn my brains backwards. It's a weird feeling. Hasn't quite opened yet. :(
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2014-05-21T15:08:30Z Zhivago: puchacz: You are confused and insane.
2014-05-21T15:08:39Z puchacz_: 1000 hrs per year per 1000 contributors
2014-05-21T15:08:56Z stassats: 1000 contributors?
2014-05-21T15:08:57Z Zhivago: So, how many 1000 contributors do you think sbcl has?
2014-05-21T15:08:58Z stassats: with 1000 hours?
2014-05-21T15:09:00Z eudoxia: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl 36 contributors
2014-05-21T15:09:12Z gingerale: 36 is surprisingly few
2014-05-21T15:09:16Z puchacz_: for all libraries and lisp code out there? won't there be 1000?
2014-05-21T15:09:19Z eudoxia: https://github.com/clojure/clojure 93 contributors
2014-05-21T15:09:23Z eudoxia: eh, not too bad
2014-05-21T15:09:28Z eudoxia: clojure has 34 PR's, sbcl has 1
2014-05-21T15:09:30Z stassats: 36 is only for those who have a github account
2014-05-21T15:09:45Z eudoxia: stassats: i thought github counted independent emails?
2014-05-21T15:10:10Z stassats: eudoxia: github is not the place where sbcl is developed
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2014-05-21T15:10:16Z splittist: kitteh pictures are both popular and consume many person-hours. I will not use a text editor written in lolcat.
2014-05-21T15:10:47Z eudoxia: it's such a shame that clojure has become so popular (relative to CL)
2014-05-21T15:10:52Z Zhivago: splittest: When CL is made illegal you may change your mind.
2014-05-21T15:11:06Z gingerale: Well Clojure is the functional language I'm "supposed" to learn according the university folks. Oh and Haskell a few years back. Not sure what the hook with Haskell is supposed to be though.
2014-05-21T15:11:08Z eudoxia: "it's lisp... but MODERN" *collective gasp from the audience*
2014-05-21T15:11:13Z splittist: They'll prise those parentheses from my cold, dead hands!
2014-05-21T15:11:37Z Zhivago: eudoxia: Well, Clojure loses a lot of obsolete crap and gets all of the java infrastructure ...
2014-05-21T15:11:55Z Zhivago: eudoxia: I can see why that might be economically advantageous to many developers.
2014-05-21T15:12:07Z gingerale: Being a Java programmer by profession Java was the reason I -didn't- pick Clojure over Common Lisp
2014-05-21T15:12:37Z stassats: git shortlog -s -n | wc -l => 63
2014-05-21T15:12:40Z eudoxia: Zhivago: I can live with CL's design problems, and there's always CL+J and Foil
2014-05-21T15:12:41Z stassats: but some are duplicate
2014-05-21T15:13:45Z Zhivago: eudoxia: You can live in a cave on a diet of yak dung and beetles, but that doesn't necessarily make it a good idea. :)
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2014-05-21T15:13:46Z prxq: CL's design problems are rather minor
2014-05-21T15:13:46Z Zhivago: eudoxia: If you want to understand why Clojure is popular, look at the economics rather than the propaganda.
2014-05-21T15:14:02Z gingerale: Industry standard languages.
2014-05-21T15:14:07Z H4ns: prxq: cl does not have much of a design, so there are no design problems => q.e.d.
2014-05-21T15:14:09Z puchacz_: eudoxia: well, I googled and: CL+J 0.3 does NOT work reliably on SBCL
2014-05-21T15:14:31Z eudoxia: Zhivago: my pet theory is that clojure libraries have prettier websites than CL ones
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2014-05-21T15:15:03Z Zhivago: eudoxia: Well, enjoy those beetles. :)
2014-05-21T15:15:24Z H4ns: prxq: don't get me wrong, i do like the fact that cl is not a designer language.  most designer languages are lacking expressiveness or are grow into something that is just gross over time.
2014-05-21T15:15:43Z leo2007: Bought SICP and PAIP back in 2011. I want to finish them this year. which one should I read first?
2014-05-21T15:16:08Z leo2007: I have read most of let-over-lambda and on-lisp.
2014-05-21T15:16:30Z stassats: my condolences
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2014-05-21T15:16:44Z leo2007: no worries.
2014-05-21T15:16:56Z puchacz_: leo2007: maybe no need to read from cover to cover? go through SICP from beginning to chapter where they implement interpreter for Scheme
2014-05-21T15:17:22Z puchacz_: and PAIP has some nice pragmatic techniques for Common Lisp
2014-05-21T15:17:50Z puchacz_: but if you don't need to understand how symbolic integration library works, also no need to read from cover to cover
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2014-05-21T15:18:40Z gingerale: Are there any proper hipster Lisp dialects out there? The sort that have maybe three developers tops but are being actively worked on and hailed as the best thing ever by its few followers.
2014-05-21T15:18:50Z eudoxia: gingerale: Shen?
2014-05-21T15:19:03Z stassats: arc!
2014-05-21T15:19:23Z Zhivago: ginger: There's always NewLisp.
2014-05-21T15:19:25Z puchacz_: we are having a bad day here
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2014-05-21T15:19:36Z gingerale: Oh my, minimalistic website designs. Loving this.
2014-05-21T15:19:48Z H4ns: gingerale: picolisp
2014-05-21T15:19:49Z puchacz_: Shen is probably not Lisp
2014-05-21T15:20:15Z stassats: neither are arc, nor newlisp
2014-05-21T15:20:26Z puchacz_: arc is like scheme, no?
2014-05-21T15:20:48Z puchacz_: (never used it but guessing - judging book by the cover)
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2014-05-21T15:21:17Z leo2007: puchacz_: the reason I bought them was I want to read them cover to cover, a few times.
2014-05-21T15:21:47Z H4ns: leo2007: if you want to read them a few times, you can start with either.
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2014-05-21T15:22:00Z H4ns: leo2007: both on lisp and lol have spoiled you anyway.
2014-05-21T15:22:18Z leo2007: H4ns: spoiled?
2014-05-21T15:22:21Z leo2007: in what ways?
2014-05-21T15:22:27Z leo2007: macro programming?
2014-05-21T15:22:34Z H4ns: leo2007: paip and sicp are sane books written by sane people.
2014-05-21T15:22:49Z H4ns: leo2007: on lisp and lol not so much.  my opionion, ymmv etc.
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2014-05-21T15:27:04Z leo2007: these 2 books probably the best so I have the deadtree copies. the other two I read the electronic version.
2014-05-21T15:27:09Z ggole: Arc. Haven't thought about that for a while.
2014-05-21T15:30:12Z chu: H4ns: Randomly, I don't suppose you have seen this one: http://www.amazon.com/Building-Problem-Solvers-Artificial-Intelligence/dp/0262061570 ?
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2014-05-21T15:31:35Z H4ns: chu: no.  looks like a nice collector's item.
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2014-05-21T15:33:40Z puchacz_: chu: I got it but did not read it yet
2014-05-21T15:33:53Z puchacz_: Norvig was recommending
2014-05-21T15:34:22Z puchacz_: they spell LISP CODE with capital letters as far as I remember
2014-05-21T15:34:40Z H4ns: puchacz_: that was not all that uncommon back in those days.
2014-05-21T15:34:41Z puchacz_: chu: did you read it?
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2014-05-21T15:36:54Z chu: Nah not yet, I am thinking of buying it though.
2014-05-21T15:37:05Z chu: Was hoping H4ns had good things to say :p
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2014-05-21T15:38:42Z puchacz_: I bought it because I liked PAIP. PAIP had good algorithms even if some of them (like symbolic integration) were not interesting to me.
2014-05-21T15:40:35Z nyef: Hunh. I picked up a copy of Building Problem Solvers a couple of weeks ago, but haven't really sat down to read it yet...
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2014-05-21T15:45:34Z pjb: splittist: oh, so vim has a lisp interpreter with which one can write new commands and other extensions?
2014-05-21T15:46:17Z oGMo: pjb: it does have a horrible command language thing, presumably you could write one in it ;)
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2014-05-21T15:47:23Z oGMo: it also supports extensions, so in theory one could link in ECL.. couldn't be much worse than elisp.. then you just have to solve the rest of vim's horribleness
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2014-05-21T15:49:39Z pjb: Well, somebody worked on (or at least asked about), interating ECL into emacs…
2014-05-21T15:50:09Z oGMo: interesting though it sounds somewhat impractical
2014-05-21T15:50:16Z oGMo: for emacs at least
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2014-05-21T15:52:10Z pjb: oGMo: on the contrary, it would be as practical as emacs-cl.
2014-05-21T15:52:19Z pjb: But it's a lot of work.
2014-05-21T15:52:58Z oGMo: that's what i mean. in theory if one could replace elisp (and all the elisp code) with CL, it would be great. practically speaking... as you said, that's a lot of work
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2014-05-21T15:53:43Z oGMo: it's probably possible to not even replace written elisp code, since a lot should be easy to just run with some special constructs in its own package
2014-05-21T15:54:43Z oGMo: but you could also probably write your own editor in CL and make it run elisp similarly with less work
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2014-05-21T16:12:50Z leo2007: elisp has gotten a lot better these years. someone even posted a patch to support TCO. plans for FFI etc.
2014-05-21T16:13:42Z leo2007: By version 25 they might even flip the flexial-dynamic switch.
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2014-05-21T16:15:06Z leo2007: puchacz_: I think I am going to start with PAIP ;) thanks for sharing your thoughts.
2014-05-21T16:15:36Z leo2007: s/flexial/lexical/, sorry time to bed ;)
2014-05-21T16:15:51Z puchacz_: leo2007: np. PAIP - more pragmatic and actually on Common Lisp: SICP - how scheme interpreter works
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2014-05-21T17:42:56Z splittist: pjb: no, but it does, obviously, allow for the writing of new commands and other extensions.
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2014-05-21T17:55:03Z jasom: okay, now I want to try embedding ecl into vim... I'll let everyone know the results next week.
2014-05-21T17:55:22Z stassats: that will not make either of those better
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2014-05-21T17:56:57Z jasom: well I already had a mini-lisp written in python to do swank communication a few years ago (when slimv was still just "launch another terminal with a lisp executable" and really sucked)
2014-05-21T17:57:01Z phadthai: hmm I seem to remember of some such past project
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2014-05-21T17:57:11Z phadthai: jasom: is slim-vim yours?
2014-05-21T17:57:30Z jasom: phadthai: no.  I didn't publish it
2014-05-21T17:57:32Z phadthai: which might be another
2014-05-21T17:57:36Z phadthai: ok
2014-05-21T17:57:44Z stassats: you kept it secret?
2014-05-21T17:59:02Z jasom: valise I think was the name I used; I decided not to publish it when I showed it to my wife and she said "Isn't that a lot like what your company makes?" (I work for a company that, among other things, makes an IDE).  Since it's somewhat the same market and slimv switched to a better approach, I never bothered to publish it
2014-05-21T17:59:14Z jasom: Vim And Lisp Interact Sans Emacs
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2014-05-21T17:59:39Z stassats: you wife just thought "what a terrible name"
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2014-05-21T18:14:43Z phadthai: jasom: ah also http://common-lisp.net/project/limp/
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2014-05-21T18:15:32Z phadthai: (I never tried any of those so far, no idea of their status)
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2014-05-21T18:24:27Z jasom: stassats: haha
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2014-05-21T18:24:40Z jasom: phadthai: ultimately it's easier to make emacs a good vim than to make vim a good emacs
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2014-05-21T19:04:30Z jasom: hmm, executables created with cl-launch seem to have a longer startup time than ones I build myself by hand; are they setup to load the asdf systems at runtime perhaps?
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2014-05-21T19:06:50Z jasom: issue only appears to be with ecl so far; sbcl is as fast as expected
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2014-05-21T20:10:04Z msmith: anyone have an example of how to encode clos objects with yason?
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2014-05-21T20:11:47Z francogrex: how can one objectively verify that (gc) did actually garbage collect? (for example in sbcl)
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2014-05-21T20:11:56Z oGMo: turn on logging
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2014-05-21T20:12:09Z heddwch: Quit worrying and learn to love the bomb
2014-05-21T20:12:18Z francogrex: logging?
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2014-05-21T20:12:44Z nyef: francogrex: There are some build-time options in the runtime that will output debugging messages when a GC happens.
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2014-05-21T20:13:06Z nyef: For gencgc, there might even be a runtime switch to turn them on.
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2014-05-21T20:13:42Z francogrex: runtime maybe better
2014-05-21T20:13:46Z oGMo: (setf (sb-ext:gc-logfile) #P"GC.log")
2014-05-21T20:14:08Z francogrex: oGMo: ok thanks that's what's needed
2014-05-21T20:14:11Z oGMo: i don't know if that logs every instance of the GC, but it gives stats for (cl-user::gc) iirc
2014-05-21T20:14:22Z nyef: Oh, right, there's also that, that's fairly recent IIRC.
2014-05-21T20:14:52Z francogrex: it's ok I don't need it to log all gc just when I call it
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2014-05-21T20:16:00Z oGMo: it definitely logs slightly more than when you call it, but surprisingly few additional times.. so i wasn't sure if it was not being shown for young generations or the GC simply didn't need to run that often
2014-05-21T20:16:07Z oGMo: and it didn't matter so i didn't really dig
2014-05-21T20:16:18Z |3b|: you could run ROOM before and after if you just want to see interactively
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2014-05-21T20:16:47Z oGMo: ah, good point, more portable, and probably easier if you need only manual results
2014-05-21T20:17:10Z francogrex: ok room also cool
2014-05-21T20:17:52Z |3b| wonders how hard it would be to add "bytes collected" to TIME output
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2014-05-21T20:18:10Z oGMo: doesn't it?
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2014-05-21T20:18:31Z oGMo: oh, just consed
2014-05-21T20:18:39Z |3b|: yeah
2014-05-21T20:18:48Z oGMo: it even shows GC time iirc
2014-05-21T20:18:52Z |3b|: right
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2014-05-21T20:19:11Z stassats: gencgc doesn't really know how much it collected
2014-05-21T20:19:41Z oGMo: does that mean it doesn't know how much is in use?
2014-05-21T20:19:50Z stassats: since it only copies reachable objects
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2014-05-21T20:20:41Z stassats: you could estimate, based on how much space was freeed, but not all of that space was filled with objects
2014-05-21T20:21:05Z oGMo: well if it was allocated and now it's not, that's almost certainly good enough :P
2014-05-21T20:21:05Z nyef: |3b|: TIME output is tricky on gencgc, because of multi-threaded operation and the nature of allocation regions.
2014-05-21T20:21:29Z oGMo: i thought sbcl's gengc was stop-the-world
2014-05-21T20:22:07Z |3b|: yeah, probably not worth the effort then
2014-05-21T20:22:12Z oGMo: but obviously figuring out how much you freed from a given thread or from a given block is really meaningless
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2014-05-21T20:23:51Z oGMo: it still seems useful to know how much was freed during the TIME though, since you can run it multiple times and compare it with profiling etc
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2014-05-21T20:24:25Z oGMo: even run only a single thread, or disable threading
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2014-05-21T20:33:34Z francogrex: so (gc :full t :gen t) is the most "powerful" call for gc in terms of cleaning?
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2014-05-21T20:49:43Z Fizzixnerd: Hello, I was wondering if someone could help me grok macro characters in Common Lisp.
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2014-05-21T20:50:20Z Odin-: I think just asking whatever questions you have is more productive...
2014-05-21T20:50:29Z Fizzixnerd: That's probably true
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2014-05-21T20:53:59Z Odin-: Drakma explodes in ... interesting ways when I give it a string with non-ASCII characters in it.
2014-05-21T20:54:16Z Xach: Odin-: possibly its PURI heritage.
2014-05-21T20:54:24Z dlowe: Fizzixnerd: Reader modifications let you affect the translation of text into data structures
2014-05-21T20:54:32Z Xach: PURI has some really painful declarations of 0 safety and limited string types
2014-05-21T20:54:41Z dlowe: Fizzixnerd: So a reader macro lets you make a custom text syntax
2014-05-21T20:54:49Z dkcl: pjb: Could you refer me to the CL editor you once wrote?
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2014-05-21T20:56:09Z Fizzixnerd: I want to set up a new syntax mode for lisp that is basically the offside rule.  The idea would be that each line has an indentation via #\Tab and ends (obviously) with #\Newline.  A line looks like <tab>* <sexp>* <newline>.  If there is only a single sexp, it is read as is, otherwise it is read as a list [ie (list <sexp>*)]. When compared to the preceeding line, an additional level of indentation should wrap the the current and
2014-05-21T20:56:10Z Fizzixnerd: succeeding lines in the list of the preceeding.  If it does not introduce a new level of indentation, then it should be wrapped by the line before whatever line introduced that indentation.
2014-05-21T20:56:13Z Odin-: Xach: Almost certainly. PURI acts ... weird.
2014-05-21T20:56:52Z Fizzixnerd: \
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2014-05-21T20:57:27Z Xach: Fizzixnerd: why?
2014-05-21T20:57:51Z nicdev: Xach: was the Lucid Energize written in Common Lisp or just inspired?
2014-05-21T20:58:09Z Fare: Fizzixnerd, read my rants about syntax control? Or at least the warning in the asdf manual about readtable modification.
2014-05-21T20:58:26Z Fare: Fizzixnerd, advice: (1) use named-readtables
2014-05-21T20:58:30Z nicdev is watching a Demo that Xach posted
2014-05-21T20:58:56Z dlowe: Fizzixnerd: I'm pretty sure that's been done. You might want to check before writing your own
2014-05-21T20:59:00Z Xach: nicdev: I'm not sure. I think it is a mix of C (for Lucid Emacs), elisp (in Lucid Emacs), and C++ (for some of the object/code database stuff).
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2014-05-21T20:59:24Z Fizzixnerd: I found wisp, but it's different from what I'm doing
2014-05-21T20:59:36Z Odin-: Xach: What I find odd is that Allegro's URI thing is documented to barf on non-ASCII input, but PURI doesn't. Then flexi-streams barfs on it at some point where Drakma hands it over.
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2014-05-21T21:00:34Z Fizzixnerd: readable lisp s-expressions project is somewhat similar but isn't quite what I want
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2014-05-21T21:02:25Z nicdev: Xach: it reminds me a Lisp Machine demo i saw at the Boston Lisp meeting once at MIT, forgot the name of the presenter
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2014-05-21T21:02:54Z zxq9: Fizzixnerd: Sort of like the indent rule here: http://zxq9.com/ryuq/0.0.2/structure.html ?
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2014-05-21T21:03:22Z zxq9: Fizzixnerd: Different purpose in this case (wasn't intended to be lispy initially, just turned out that way)
2014-05-21T21:04:09Z Fizzixnerd: Xach: I think it would be handy and more readable.  Also, I'm in the midst of writing a lisp interpreter and want to understand CL macro charaters so I can add them at some point
2014-05-21T21:05:19Z Fizzixnerd: zxq9: This looks very similar
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2014-05-21T21:06:37Z zxq9: Fizzixnerd: The way I've been implementing the optional representations is to read source in a pre-processing function that outputs the canonical (parenthesized) rule, and then pass that through a guile interpreter that has the necessary functions defined to output query trees for consumption by the query system.
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2014-05-21T21:07:06Z zxq9: Fizzixnerd: In your case you could write a pre-process parse function that then passes the source into your lisp environment directly.
2014-05-21T21:07:24Z Fizzixnerd: zxq9: That is how I was going to do it too, until I thought macro characters would be more appropriate if they were available
2014-05-21T21:08:15Z Fizzixnerd: rather, *might* be more appropriate
2014-05-21T21:08:28Z zxq9: Fizzixnerd: Is there any reason your pre-process function couldn't handle them?
2014-05-21T21:09:03Z Fizzixnerd: zxq9: the separation make source level debugging somewhat more difficult to implement
2014-05-21T21:09:29Z Fizzixnerd: zxq9: other than that, no.
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2014-05-21T21:12:03Z Fizzixnerd: zxq9: How did you come to select guile as the scheme implementation you wanted?
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2014-05-21T21:13:57Z Fare: nicdev, Kalman Reti?
2014-05-21T21:15:15Z nicdev: Fare: yes
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2014-05-21T21:22:19Z zxq9: Fizzixnerd: In my case I wanted to implement an additional query language within Postgres to replace/supplement SQL. guile makes inclusion into a larger C program really easy.
2014-05-21T21:22:40Z zxq9: Fizzixnerd: So basically I chose guile because I'm lazy; it does all the work for me already.
2014-05-21T21:23:13Z stassats: so, what you're discussing is really off-topic?
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2014-05-21T21:24:47Z zxq9: Fizzixnerd: The first pass over source consumes the input code as a text string -- it doesn't have to be aware of much other than indent/outdent -> parenthesization  and a very few infix -> prefix operation swaps. It then interprets the output string as code. I'm not sure, but I think that wouldn't interfere with macro systems in other lisps. ?
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2014-05-21T21:25:31Z zxq9: stassats: We were talking about an implementation of an alternative lisp notation. I'm not seeing how that is off-topic for #lisp
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2014-05-21T21:27:07Z stassats: #lisp is a common lisp channel, not my-new-toy-language-implemented-in-scheme channel
2014-05-21T21:29:12Z zxq9: So the experience of implementing a nearly identical syntax to what he desires for an alternative CL notation isn't relevant because it was an implementation of a DSL in a Scheme...
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2014-05-21T21:31:43Z stassats: (you can see that i don't like neither scheme, nor alternative syntaxes)
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2014-05-21T21:34:52Z zxq9: Your opinion on scheme and alternative syntaxes doesn't make a discussion irrelevant; one of the primary strengths of any lisp is the ease of creating DSLs. If every instance of this were deemed "my-new-toy-language-implemented-in-X" then most of the channel's history would be off-topic.
2014-05-21T21:35:57Z Bike: nah it's more common to talk about regexes or cffi or json or somesuch
2014-05-21T21:36:17Z zxq9: touche
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2014-05-21T21:36:52Z whartung: even if that's the case, it's about implementing DSLs in CL.
2014-05-21T21:37:17Z zxq9: whartung: Which is what I was trying to provide Fizzixnerd some background on how to go about doing.
2014-05-21T21:37:25Z Bike: i wasn't here whenever this started, i'd just like to avoid talking about yet more syntaxes
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2014-05-21T22:29:48Z heddwch: Anybody alive, what's your favorite open source example of what you'd call good style?
2014-05-21T22:29:57Z heddwch: (Meaning formatting, mostly)
2014-05-21T22:30:06Z stassats: minion: luv-slides?
2014-05-21T22:30:06Z minion: luv-slides: luv-slides is a slide show by Kent Pitman and Peter Norvig discussing good programming style in Lisp and more generally. See <http://norvig.com/luv-slides.ps>
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2014-05-21T22:30:18Z heddwch: Thanks :)
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2014-05-21T22:30:22Z Fare: those slides are very dated
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2014-05-21T22:30:31Z Fare: some of the advice they give is bad
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2014-05-21T22:30:40Z Fare: some of it is good
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2014-05-21T22:30:55Z heddwch: haha Hopefully I'll be able to pick out which is which
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2014-05-21T22:31:05Z Fare: NB: I edited google's CL style guide.
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2014-05-21T22:31:28Z whartung: I guess the fact they're in PS is telling as well...
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2014-05-21T22:31:42Z Fare: I notably am very much against their old style "try to use cons cells first as your data structure" mindset.
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2014-05-21T22:31:59Z Fare: whartung, PS?
2014-05-21T22:32:07Z whartung: postscript
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2014-05-21T22:32:26Z whartung: ah I see, it's only 22 years old.
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2014-05-21T22:33:11Z Fare: actually a whole section I wrote in the google cl style guide is about choosing the appropriate data structure for the task.
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2014-05-21T22:33:29Z heddwch: I believe I've read that :)
2014-05-21T22:33:34Z whartung: what google cl style guide?
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2014-05-21T22:33:55Z Fare: http://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/lispguide.xml
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2014-05-21T22:35:45Z stassats: a dollar sign?
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2014-05-21T22:37:22Z dkcl: Does anyone know a link or a name to Pascal's CL editor?
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2014-05-21T23:13:39Z dim: dkcl: it's in the informatimago maze
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2014-05-21T23:14:04Z dim: https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/b3e6eda3f2e5e4eade5d41947ba3fe2ba2b3a70e:future/editor.lisp
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2014-05-21T23:15:39Z dkcl: dim: Thanks, I decided to just pull the whole thing and look for it, haha
2014-05-21T23:16:07Z dim: I happened to have that link within my browser history ;-)
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2014-05-21T23:19:17Z dkcl: dim: The one I found was a sexp editor, so the link helps
2014-05-21T23:19:22Z dkcl: dim: Did you like the editor? :P
2014-05-21T23:19:30Z dim: I didn't try it yet
2014-05-21T23:19:55Z dim: I keep the link for reference to include in a console based programming learning game, if I ever get to work on that idea
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2014-05-21T23:45:52Z heddwch: Is there any user documentation for lisp-interface-library at all somewhere maybe?
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2014-05-22T00:01:54Z heddwch: nvm, I think I see that this article (book) is supposed to be it.
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2014-05-22T03:07:31Z names: phadthai __main__ sixbitslacker guaqua ivan\ eee-blt setheus Corey nialo` wchun [SLB] The_third_man hzp Nshag s_e johanbev z0d freiksenet junkris_ MightyJoe rvirding _tca jasom d4gg4d___ wilfredh FractalFive stokachu notori0us karswell pjb ahungry hugoduncan alchemis7 Mandus TristamWrk vpm echo[1] acieroid theBlackDragon axion Kabaka bjorkintosh Krystof cods ecraven tuturto kyl yroeht2 heddwch galdor aoh jsnell_ Colleen Tristam yauz ineiros redline6561
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2014-05-22T03:07:31Z names: Adlai MouldyOldBones McMAGIC--Copy Vivitron theos impulse jtz frkout Eyess MrWoohoo DGASAU FVG_ splittist ufd stardiviner Mon_Ouie zwer ahungry_ oleo izirku sz0` hugod REPLeffect wgreenhouse cross billitch yrk rtoym JuanDaugherty sandbender1512 abeaumont yrdz klltkr the8thbit lemonodor Fare zacharias patrickwonders fantazo bgs100 fikusz Patzy Bike gigetoo sheilong keen____ matko ASau jaimef aretecode nipra c74d fmu cmbntr_ m4dnificent farhaven spacebat
2014-05-22T03:07:31Z names: Blkt_ nug700_ easye` Wackadoodle_ gingerale gluegadget Zag lacedaemon aksatac_ WeirdEnthusiast mal_ htmzr_ Munksgaard_ diginet_ johs_ fnordbert eagleflo benny` sytse Subfusc drdo AeroNotix_ gz_ scharan_ LostDatagram optikalmouse AntiSpamMeta Vutral yeltzooo araujo ampharmex findiggle quasisan1 DataLinkDroid les_ ThePhoeron nydel dfox tessier Intensity nightfly JPeterson AdmiralBumbleBee KCL Lebbe phl- sirdancealot zRecursive antonv chu cmatei JuniorRoy
2014-05-22T03:07:31Z names: joneshf-laptop mikaelj quazimodo SHODAN Zhivago gadmyth deego nand1 bocaneri kushal lyanchih Sgeo_ minion gadmyth` hypno__ tinyblak_ JuniorRoy1 boogie aerique_ bege_ White__Flame Praise- Wukix``` phax justinmcp_ Tordek_ Shozan j0ni_ asedeno_ felideon oconnore_ xificurC ZombieChicken KCL_ loke cpt_nemo Kruppe
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2014-05-22T05:37:04Z mzgcz: I use (read-line) in my slime-repl, when input the emacs became very very slow
2014-05-22T05:38:23Z heddwch: Slow as in laggy?
2014-05-22T05:39:41Z mzgcz: heddwch, slow for input
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2014-05-22T05:43:58Z heddwch: mzgcz: Sorry, I was thinking of something unrelated. I'm not sure what your problem might be, but I can say I tried to reproduce and couldn't. I'm using SBCL 1.1.17+Slime from quicklisp+Emacs 24.3.1
2014-05-22T05:44:14Z heddwch: on Linux x86-64*
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2014-05-22T05:47:05Z pjb: mzgcz: I don't observe that with slime/ccl.
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2014-05-22T05:49:11Z chu: Neither here, slime and sbcl (1.0.57).
2014-05-22T05:50:10Z mzgcz: heddwch, pjb,chu sorry for my squawk, I think it's ac-mode made this trouble
2014-05-22T05:50:42Z heddwch: mzgcz: You're okay :) Someone in #emacs might have better insight, but no guarantees since it's not technically an emacs problem
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2014-05-22T05:53:52Z heddwch: So, I've found that with usocket on my platform I can use a blocking read in one thread while concurrently writing to the same socket. That seems like lucking out on undefined behavior. Is there a better way to do this?
2014-05-22T05:54:10Z heddwch: I like the threading approach, I just feel certain it's going to break.
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2014-05-22T05:55:39Z heddwch: Sorry, usocket alongside bordeaux-threads on SBCL/Linux/x86-64
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2014-05-22T06:26:12Z H4ns: pjb: paste like a pro!
2014-05-22T06:26:13Z pjb: <01:06:55>   *** knob (~knob@adsl-72-50-80-181.prtc.net) has joined channel #lisp
2014-05-22T06:26:15Z pjb: <01:07:45>   *** joneshf (~joneshf@98.255.30.38) has joined channel #lisp
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2014-05-22T06:26:19Z heddwch: This is very helpful information
2014-05-22T06:26:22Z pjb: <01:11:02>   *** AdmiralBumbleBee (~casion@pool-173-65-191-69.tampfl.fios.verizon.net) has joined channel #lisp
2014-05-22T06:26:25Z pjb: <01:11:06>   *** KCL (~quassel@50.13.169.64) has joined channel #lisp
2014-05-22T06:26:25Z pjb: <01:11:15>dkcl, dim: I also have an ed(1) editor, and the mentionned sexp editor. https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/sedit/index.html   https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/common-lisp/ed/  https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/future/editor.lisp
2014-05-22T06:26:29Z pjb: Oops.
2014-05-22T06:26:35Z pjb: This is a bug in erc.
2014-05-22T06:26:38Z heddwch: haha
2014-05-22T06:26:38Z pjb: When you mark the buffer, it extends the region when it adds to it.
2014-05-22T06:26:39Z H4ns: right.
2014-05-22T06:26:41Z nightfly: paste bomb and hilight bomb in one >.<
2014-05-22T06:26:49Z samebchase: pjb: use paste.lisp.org ;-)
2014-05-22T06:26:51Z heddwch: In other words, you need to lay off the sauce more than I do
2014-05-22T06:27:06Z pjb: samebchase: it does that even on a single line!
2014-05-22T06:27:34Z H4ns: pjb: you can fix the bug, it is open source.
2014-05-22T06:27:40Z pjb: Anyways, did the last line with three url transmit?
2014-05-22T06:27:47Z samebchase: yeah
2014-05-22T06:27:50Z pjb: H4ns: Yes, I should.
2014-05-22T06:27:52Z pjb: samebchase: ok.
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2014-05-22T06:30:58Z heddwch: What about the other 43 lines, though? Were they important?
2014-05-22T06:31:12Z pjb: heddwch: This is a bug in erc.
2014-05-22T06:31:18Z pjb: heddwch: When you mark the buffer, it extends the region when it adds to it.
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2014-05-22T06:31:47Z heddwch heard, just has a bad sense of humor.
2014-05-22T06:31:48Z heddwch: Sorry
2014-05-22T06:32:09Z pjb: More exactly, if you select some text in the erc buffer, and "wait" for some new message, then yank, while the transient region still shows the original selection, more text is yanked.
2014-05-22T06:32:30Z heddwch: ah
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2014-05-22T08:09:01Z orthecreedence: hi everyone
2014-05-22T08:09:19Z heddwch: 'allo poppet
2014-05-22T08:09:40Z orthecreedence: is there a way for a foreign function called via CFFI to change the address of a passed pointer?
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2014-05-22T08:10:30Z orthecreedence: i'm trying to call windows' CryptAcquireContext (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa379886%28v=vs.85%29.aspx) and it needs to set a value into a pointer, but i dont think CFFI is geared to do this
2014-05-22T08:11:03Z lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix
2014-05-22T08:11:19Z heddwch: orthecreedence: I'm not the most knowledgeable, but iirc, you can declare the direction for pass-by-reference with CFFI. That should also work for pointers.
2014-05-22T08:11:22Z gadmyth`: e
2014-05-22T08:11:35Z gadmyth`: use evil with erc
2014-05-22T08:11:58Z orthecreedence: heddwch: are thre docs on that? i don't think ive seen anything on it.
2014-05-22T08:13:12Z orthecreedence: also does that require libffi?
2014-05-22T08:13:41Z heddwch: No guarantees, but I'm trying to find it. I'm a bit in my cups and trying to find something I vaguely remember in passing ;) I only looked at CFFI, so if it actually exists, it has to be here
2014-05-22T08:14:21Z orthecreedence: thanks :)
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2014-05-22T08:17:32Z heddwch: np :) Still looking, but had a thought. Your link doesn't want to load for me (I'm guessing I lack credentials), but does the C function accept a pointer to a pointer? (**)
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2014-05-22T08:26:30Z orthecreedence: heddwch: yeah probably
2014-05-22T08:27:33Z orthecreedence: i see what you're saying, i'll give that a shot
2014-05-22T08:27:42Z JuanDaugherty: heddwch, in straight C a pointer is a pointer is a pointer
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2014-05-22T08:29:27Z heddwch: JuanDaugherty: Not exactly, no. If it accepts a pointer to a pointer and you pass it an int, sure, you could cast that into to a pointer, but that doesn't make it good practice.
2014-05-22T08:29:30Z JuanDaugherty: the receiver has to use it in the right way of course
2014-05-22T08:30:06Z heddwch: You could usually cast that to an int* Not guaranteed, you might overwrite other data because pointers ≠ ints
2014-05-22T08:30:14Z JuanDaugherty: i meant of course that the supplied value was in the proper domain a valid pointer for what the receiver intends to do with it
2014-05-22T08:30:53Z JuanDaugherty: in c and c++ pointers are just pointers at the point of a binary FFI
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2014-05-22T08:31:14Z heddwch: JuanDaugherty: Right, you're, in general, totally correct, just.. there's a reason we don't all use assembly all the time, and C's 'portability' causes problems when you think that way ;)
2014-05-22T08:31:40Z JuanDaugherty: i've been using for about 27 years now
2014-05-22T08:31:45Z JuanDaugherty: so somewhat familiar
2014-05-22T08:32:24Z heddwch: Your correctness in spite of semantics convinces me you're an experience C programmer ;)
2014-05-22T08:32:25Z JuanDaugherty: your problems sound confabulated to me, no offense
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2014-05-22T08:32:38Z heddwch: experienced*
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2014-05-22T08:33:08Z JuanDaugherty: across a lisp/C ffi you only wanna pass data
2014-05-22T08:33:24Z orthecreedence: ok, now back to me
2014-05-22T08:33:43Z orthecreedence: i tried passing in the pointer to the address refrenced by another pointer, no luck
2014-05-22T08:33:55Z JuanDaugherty: although that data could be pointer to a function used in it's native lang env
2014-05-22T08:34:01Z heddwch: The reason I asked, though, is that if a function accepts a pointer and modifies the data it points to, that's one thing. If it accepts a pointer to a pointer and modifies what the latter pointer points to, that's another.
2014-05-22T08:34:15Z orthecreedence: ah
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2014-05-22T08:34:24Z orthecreedence: no, it takes a pointer to an int
2014-05-22T08:34:35Z JuanDaugherty: in c you can do pointer on data objects
2014-05-22T08:34:36Z heddwch: JuanDaugherty: Ah, okay, I see your point with "pointer is a pointer", then, sorry :) I misunderstood
2014-05-22T08:34:45Z JuanDaugherty: anything else ... i dunno
2014-05-22T08:34:49Z pjb: And what do you mean by change the address of the passed pointer?
2014-05-22T08:34:57Z JuanDaugherty: *pointer arithmetic
2014-05-22T08:35:02Z pjb: orthecreedence: first, do you realize that a pointer and an address are the same thing?
2014-05-22T08:35:09Z orthecreedence: yeah i know
2014-05-22T08:35:17Z pjb: So what is the address of the pointer?
2014-05-22T08:35:20Z heddwch: I just wish I could view the linked page, tbh. I'm guessing it's because I lack an MSDN subscription
2014-05-22T08:35:34Z orthecreedence: weird, i have no msdn sub and it works for me
2014-05-22T08:35:41Z orthecreedence: maybe you have ot be 'murican
2014-05-22T08:35:43Z pjb: orthecreedence: and do you realize, that addresses are numbers and that numbers live in the mathematical noosphere?
2014-05-22T08:35:51Z heddwch: orthecreedence: Unfortunately, I am =p
2014-05-22T08:35:52Z orthecreedence: yep :)
2014-05-22T08:36:16Z orthecreedence: so it's something like this, i believe:
2014-05-22T08:36:18Z pjb: It's really not clear, what you want or need to do.
2014-05-22T08:36:33Z orthecreedence: void change_ptr(int* a) { a = 1234; }
2014-05-22T08:37:08Z heddwch: a should point at address decimal 1234?
2014-05-22T08:37:17Z orthecreedence: and the calling syntax is
2014-05-22T08:37:28Z orthecreedence: int changeme; change_ptr(changeme);
2014-05-22T08:37:33Z orthecreedence: yes
2014-05-22T08:37:45Z pjb: No.
2014-05-22T08:37:59Z pjb: change_ptr takes a int* and you give it a int.  There's a type error.
2014-05-22T08:38:05Z orthecreedence: sorry sorry
2014-05-22T08:38:14Z orthecreedence: change_ptr(&changeme);
2014-05-22T08:38:30Z pjb: Ok.  The only variable modified is a, here.  Not changeme.
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2014-05-22T08:38:47Z heddwch defers to pjb because drunk and pjb is wonderful
2014-05-22T08:38:53Z orthecreedence: haha
2014-05-22T08:39:04Z orthecreedence: pjb: are you able to see that article?
2014-05-22T08:39:11Z pjb: Why do you want to use CFFI if you don't know C?
2014-05-22T08:39:17Z heddwch: Sorry, I tried in my lack of current ability ;)
2014-05-22T08:39:40Z orthecreedence: pjb: i know a good amount of c
2014-05-22T08:39:41Z pjb: Yes.
2014-05-22T08:39:42Z pjb: Reading.
2014-05-22T08:39:54Z orthecreedence: and i've seen this in *c* before, but never interfaced this type of call with cffi
2014-05-22T08:39:57Z pjb: orthecreedence: you seem to be wanting to modify the variable changeme, and you fail lamentably.
2014-05-22T08:40:18Z orthecreedence: i just want the value of phProv
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2014-05-22T08:41:02Z pjb: You should use cffi:with-foreign-pointer http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/with_002dforeign_002dpointer.html#with_002dforeign_002dpointer
2014-05-22T08:41:44Z orthecreedence: yes, i am, and after passing it into CryptoAcquireContext, both its address and its referenced value are the same
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2014-05-22T08:42:15Z pjb: or with-foreign-object.
2014-05-22T08:42:33Z orthecreedence: tried that too, with unsigned-int type
2014-05-22T08:42:53Z orthecreedence: (which is same size as HCRYPTPROV)
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2014-05-22T08:43:19Z pjb: (cffi:with-foreign-object ((prov hcryptprov)) (CryptAcquireContext prov container provider provtype flags))
2014-05-22T08:44:13Z pjb: (cffi:with-foreign-pointer ((prov (cffi:foreign-type-size 'hcryptprov))) (CryptAcquireContext prov container provider provtype flags))
2014-05-22T08:44:24Z pjb: something like that.
2014-05-22T08:45:04Z orthecreedence: no dice :(
2014-05-22T08:45:27Z pjb: To read the result:  (cffi:with-foreign-pointer ((prov (cffi:foreign-type-size 'hcryptprov))) (CryptAcquireContext prov container provider provtype flags)  (cffi:mem-ref prov  'hcryptprov))
2014-05-22T08:45:38Z pjb: This is pseudo-code ;-)
2014-05-22T08:45:58Z orthecreedence: right, but i get the jist
2014-05-22T08:46:05Z heddwch: As a last resort, reboot and press the key that your BIOS super-pretty-splash-screen indicates to boot from the flash drive you've used unetbootin upon
2014-05-22T08:46:11Z orthecreedence: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/code/win32.lisp#L1191
2014-05-22T08:46:25Z orthecreedence: heddwch: hmm i'll give that a shot ;)
2014-05-22T08:46:33Z heddwch: hehe :)
2014-05-22T08:46:49Z orthecreedence: i'm wondering if there's something like :out for just normal CFFI (this is obvis sbcl specific)
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2014-05-22T08:47:30Z heddwch: That's what I vaguely remember reading about, but can't currently find, and don't know if I'm even remembering the right language's FFI, so..
2014-05-22T08:47:43Z orthecreedence: because the value is just not being set
2014-05-22T08:48:12Z pjb: Implementation specific FFI may be higher level than CFFI.  CFFI had to take the GCD of FFIs.
2014-05-22T08:48:37Z pjb: orthecreedence: but you can easily write a macro that lets you define FFI at a higher leven than CFFI, expanding to CFFI.
2014-05-22T08:48:42Z pjb: s/leven/level/
2014-05-22T08:49:11Z orthecreedence: sure, i guess i've got some implementation FFI reading to do
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2014-05-22T08:49:53Z orthecreedence: sure is a pain getting real randoms in windows
2014-05-22T08:50:06Z pjb: orthecreedence: by the way, it's:  void change_ptr(int* a) { *a = 1234; }
2014-05-22T08:50:17Z heddwch: s/real randoms/shit to work/
2014-05-22T08:50:32Z orthecreedence: that would change the value that a points to, right?
2014-05-22T08:50:32Z pjb: orthecreedence: and it doesn't change the pointer, but the value pointed to by the pointer.
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2014-05-22T08:50:55Z pjb: orthecreedence: void change_the_value(int* pointer_to_the_value) { *pointer_to_the_value = 1234; }
2014-05-22T08:51:45Z orthecreedence: sure, that's my example. but i believe if that were the case, a simple mem-aref would have solved my problems by now :(
2014-05-22T08:52:23Z orthecreedence: i have a working test in C (which at least lets me see if i'm getting real values back), and trying to mimick it in CFFI has been fruitless.
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2014-05-22T08:54:10Z pjb: the value can be a pointer too.  Or a "handle", as they call it.
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2014-05-22T08:55:14Z orthecreedence: well, i'll keep playing with it. maybe i am doing something retarded
2014-05-22T08:55:20Z orthecreedence: thanks for the help guys =]
2014-05-22T08:55:51Z pjb: orthecreedence: in any case, I agree with you that as soon as you have to use C and FFI, things are hairy.  So better wrap all that in a good abstraction layer, once it's working, and never look back at it :-)
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2014-05-22T08:57:13Z orthecreedence: that's my usual MO =]. i had a real hell of a time wrapping libevent2 (different struct sizes/positions on different platforms) but evenually got it working just about everywhere
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2014-05-22T11:39:47Z Krystof: heddwch: took longer than expected, but http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/sbcl-1.1.18-570-gc97f029-binary.tar.gz is a binary I just built on my RPi
2014-05-22T11:40:57Z stassats`: and that's for armhf
2014-05-22T11:42:31Z Xach: So many problems with SBCL git for me right now.
2014-05-22T11:42:40Z Xach: I'm going to try to get a cl-test-grid before-and-after report available.
2014-05-22T11:43:15Z Xach: The value NIL is not of type SB-C::IR2-BLOCK when building clfswm, for example, but I'm not sure if it's from something else.
2014-05-22T11:43:35Z stassats`: that doesn't sound good
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2014-05-22T11:45:53Z Xach: I think the majority of problems come from lingering reader macro changes, even with named-readtables updates
2014-05-22T11:46:10Z Xach: It's overwhelming to me at the moment.
2014-05-22T11:46:18Z stassats`: i'm reproducing The value NIL is not of type SB-C::IR2-BLOCK.
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2014-05-22T11:49:53Z Xach: cl-curlex also seems to frob sbcl internals
2014-05-22T11:50:16Z Xach: Maybe. It's using def-ir1-translater.
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2014-05-22T11:56:29Z Krystof: freeze periods are awesome
2014-05-22T11:56:31Z Krystof: thanks, Xach
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2014-05-22T12:01:12Z Xach: I tested because of your email this time!
2014-05-22T12:01:51Z Xach: Anyway, is cl-curlex doing something questionable? https://github.com/mabragor/cl-curlex/blob/master/sbcl.lisp
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2014-05-22T12:02:23Z Xach: The error is: Required argument is not a symbol: (&REST CLAUSES)
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2014-05-22T12:03:19Z Xach: sb-c being private suggests to me that it is
2014-05-22T12:03:46Z nyef: Yeah, by definition this is questionable, on the level of "if it breaks, you get to keep the pieces".
2014-05-22T12:05:00Z Xach: Is this a case where making a gentle change to internals will allow a questionable library to continue working?
2014-05-22T12:07:11Z Xach: Or should I just notify mr. cl-curlex and move on?
2014-05-22T12:07:24Z nyef: Nowhere in SYS:SRC;COMPILER;*.LISP do I see a case of def-ir1-translator with that many open-parens on the lambda list.
2014-05-22T12:07:58Z stassats`: it's just a macro
2014-05-22T12:08:05Z stassats`: macro lambda list, that is
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2014-05-22T14:09:12Z Xach: mega1: it seems like named-readtables are broken on sbcl 1.1.18 now
2014-05-22T14:09:22Z Xach: READ error during COMPILE-FILE: Lock on package SB-IMPL violated
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2014-05-22T14:14:12Z Xach holds head in hands
2014-05-22T14:14:43Z oleo: what the heck happened to without-package-locks ?
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2014-05-22T14:16:26Z nyef: You wouldn't use without-package-locks if you're just using existing symbols.
2014-05-22T14:17:44Z dim: Xach: I've had this problem one and all I needed was to trash the fasl cache and try again
2014-05-22T14:17:47Z nyef: And if the set of internal symbols change, well... It's SB-IMPL, so if it breaks then you get to keep the pieces.
2014-05-22T14:17:52Z dim: once/maybe more actually
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2014-05-22T14:19:56Z Xach: dim: I don't think that's the case in this situation. i think it's an evolving-private-api problem.
2014-05-22T14:20:34Z dim: oh yeah, I know nothing about the problem you actually have, I just happen to know only one "magic" bullet to throw at it, with very low expectations...
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2014-05-22T14:43:06Z mega1: Xach: fix pushed.
2014-05-22T14:43:53Z mega1: now why does ERC not highlight my nick?
2014-05-22T14:45:01Z Xach: mega1: thanks. i'll test it again
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2014-05-22T14:48:45Z mega1: grr, (require 'dbus) was missing from my .emacs
2014-05-22T14:49:03Z mega1: mega1: hello
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2014-05-22T14:50:34Z splittist waits for mega1 to reply to himself
2014-05-22T14:51:02Z mega1: Thank you. That actually triggered a notification.
2014-05-22T14:52:21Z dim: so if someone says mega1 you're notified?
2014-05-22T14:52:36Z mega1: thank you, that's enough
2014-05-22T14:53:03Z dim: ok mega1 ;-)
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2014-05-22T14:59:53Z dlowe: sure thing, mega1
2014-05-22T15:00:00Z Xach: evil
2014-05-22T15:00:08Z Xach: after all he has done for you!
2014-05-22T15:00:26Z dlowe: who? mega1?
2014-05-22T15:00:42Z mega1: worst support group ever
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2014-05-22T15:01:41Z dlowe: mega1: it's all out of love <script>computer.shutdown()</script>
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2014-05-22T15:04:24Z mega1: It's 2014. Clearly, you have to inject org.freedesktop.Hal.Device.SystemPowerManagement.Shutdown somewhere.
2014-05-22T15:04:59Z stassats`: .hcf()
2014-05-22T15:05:23Z stassats`: (as in, halt and catch fire)
2014-05-22T15:05:58Z nyef: Hah! On my system you have to find whichever other machine has the serial connection to the L1 controller/ALOM/iLO and tell *IT* to kill the power.
2014-05-22T15:06:12Z nyef: (Okay, not quite, but still...)
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2014-05-22T16:27:01Z nyef: How long does it take to do a cl-test-grid run and on what sort of hardware?
2014-05-22T16:28:40Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/64 --- so, who's interested into either fixing the SBCL GC for memory hungry use cases, or fixing the CCL compilation not to require an old patched gcc, or fixing pgloader to fix its consing behavior, which might be needed anyways?
2014-05-22T16:29:09Z dim: more seriously tho, each time I have complaints about pgloader memory behaviour, suing CCL rather than SBCL fixes them.
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2014-05-22T16:30:04Z heddwch: Krystof: Thanks for the link :) I'll be happily testing that later
2014-05-22T16:30:39Z nyef: A number of SBCL GC improvements are on my TODO-sometime list, including low-free-address-space scenarios.
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2014-05-22T16:31:13Z nyef: Improving consing behavior is usually a win *ANYWAY*.
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2014-05-22T16:34:15Z dim: yeah, but I've been reported use cases whre 8GB wouldn't be enough for SBCL (ldb, OOM) and CCL was keeping up with 400MB for the whole run
2014-05-22T16:34:29Z dim: I'm yet to work on an easily reproducible test case tho
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2014-05-22T16:34:43Z nyef: GC stuff can be like that, unfortunately.
2014-05-22T16:35:25Z nyef: And I presume that you're running on actively-maintained and fully-featured SBCL targets, such as x86-64/linux?
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2014-05-22T16:38:44Z dim: I'm personnaly using either SBCL 1.1.8 on macosx or 1.1.14+ on debian or centos, and my users reporting the bugs usually where using debian or ubuntu with sbcl 1.1.14+ (because pgloader won't compile before)
2014-05-22T16:38:57Z nyef: And that you're not seeing quite the same effects on the other most-maintained target, ppc/linux?
2014-05-22T16:38:59Z dim: 1.1.8 should be read 1.1.18, sorry
2014-05-22T16:39:13Z dim: I don't have access to ppc/linux that I know of
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2014-05-22T16:50:25Z nyef: The thing about PPC/Linux is that it's *THE* non-x86oid threaded target, and it uses the more-precise version of gencgc (only pinning on explicit request).
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2014-05-22T18:29:15Z jasom: There's no standard version of eval that takes an environment object, right?
2014-05-22T18:29:24Z Bike: nope.
2014-05-22T18:30:05Z Bike: if you have cltl2 you can do (funcall (cltl2:enclose `(lambda () ,code) env)) but that's terrible.
2014-05-22T18:30:32Z dlowe: Note that you can do stuff like (eval `(let ((myvar ,val)) ,@stuff-to-eval))
2014-05-22T18:30:37Z dlowe: and it can get you a long way
2014-05-22T18:30:44Z jasom: dlowe: I was thinking macroexpansions
2014-05-22T18:31:04Z dlowe: macrolet too
2014-05-22T18:31:22Z prxq: Bike: why is that terrible? I mean, if you are already about to use eval...
2014-05-22T18:31:49Z dlowe: yes, you've already gone down the primrose path to hell there
2014-05-22T18:31:54Z jasom: dlowe: or I could recursively walk the tree calling macroexpand
2014-05-22T18:31:54Z Bike: just because (eval code env) would be less ugly.
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2014-05-22T18:32:15Z jasom: since macroexpand *does* take an env
2014-05-22T18:32:21Z prxq: Bike: ah, well, granted :-)
2014-05-22T18:33:22Z Bike: well, if you're thinking codewalking maybe you might as well use cltl2 anyway. it's in sbcl and ccl at least.
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2014-05-22T18:53:53Z pjb: jasom: (defun env-eval (form environment) (eval (macroexpand form environment)))
2014-05-22T18:54:11Z jasom: pjb: macroexpand doesn't recursively walk the tree, does it?
2014-05-22T18:54:15Z Bike: it does not.
2014-05-22T18:54:18Z pjb: eval does it.
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2014-05-22T18:54:33Z Bike: so if you had (progn (some-macro-defined-in-env ...)) whoops.
2014-05-22T18:54:33Z pjb: jasom: but notice that the only operator that is able to provide you an environment is defmacro.
2014-05-22T18:55:04Z pjb: So you can use env-eval only in a defmacro: (defmacro m (&environment env) (env-eval (compute-some-form) env))
2014-05-22T18:55:05Z Bike: and make-load-form, and define-setf-expander, and
2014-05-22T18:55:19Z pjb: Yes, a few others, but basically they reduce to macros.
2014-05-22T18:55:55Z Vivitron: jasom: I played around with macroexpand-all and environments some to try to answer a stack overflow question a while ago, here's the dead end I hit: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142654
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2014-05-22T18:56:36Z pjb: jasom: so  the question is really what do you want to achieve?
2014-05-22T18:57:15Z jasom: pjb: I'm still thinking about that; I'd like to implement a composable code expander similar to setf
2014-05-22T18:57:43Z pjb: You don't need eval for that.  But a macro will come handy, and you might indeed want to use &environment.
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2014-05-22T18:57:49Z Bike: setf doesn't need macroexpansions, though...
2014-05-22T18:58:06Z jasom: Bike: the implementation of setf does
2014-05-22T18:58:10Z Bike: if you want to store your own stuff in an environment, the usual trick is to define a symbol macro and expand it as necessary. ugly as shit, but works
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2014-05-22T18:58:53Z Bike: i don't think setf has to macroexpand-all, but i haven't looked at an implementation in a bit
2014-05-22T18:58:56Z jasom: Bike: (macrolet ((foo (x) `(car ,x)) (setf (foo x) 3)) will totally work
2014-05-22T18:59:07Z nyef: Bike: Is there a solution similar to that for passing stuff back *UP* to an enclosing environment?
2014-05-22T18:59:07Z stassats`: setf needs get-setf-expansion
2014-05-22T18:59:42Z pjb: It doesn't need to macroexpand, (well, it might, if the place is a macro form),  it just calls the setf-expander and this is what may need to macroexpand, which is why setf pass it the environment.
2014-05-22T19:00:21Z jasom: Bike: (let ((x (cons 'a 'b))) (macrolet ((foo (x) `(car ,x))) (setf (foo x) 3)) x) => (3 . B)
2014-05-22T19:00:33Z stassats`: get-setf-expansion has an &environment argument
2014-05-22T19:00:36Z Bike: well, ok, so it does one macroexpansion.
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2014-05-22T19:00:39Z jasom: Bike: presumably get-setf-expansion does the expansion
2014-05-22T19:00:41Z Vivitron: pjb: there are also setf functions
2014-05-22T19:00:42Z Bike: i forgot about that.
2014-05-22T19:00:57Z pjb: get-setf-expansion does expansion if it needs to!
2014-05-22T19:01:22Z jasom: and setf is a macro, so it can pass the environment to get-setf-expansion
2014-05-22T19:01:25Z pjb: Vivitron: not relevant to the discussion.
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2014-05-22T19:01:41Z Vivitron: pjb: setf won't call a setf-expander in all situations.
2014-05-22T19:01:47Z Bike: nyef: i don't think i understand what you're asking
2014-05-22T19:01:54Z pjb: Vivitron: did I say that?
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2014-05-22T19:02:54Z Vivitron: pjb: [setf] ... "just calls the setf-expander"
2014-05-22T19:03:12Z Vivitron: pjb: perhaps I misunderstood you
2014-05-22T19:03:44Z nyef: Bike: The symbol-macrolet thing lets you pass arbitrary data into a lexical environment for use by macros within that environment. Is there an equivalent where you establish an environment in which you use macros to set stuff up that you then pull out at the end, basically using the compiler / evaluator as a code-walker?
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2014-05-22T19:06:34Z Bike: nyef: have the macro functions set some dynamic variables, i guess?
2014-05-22T19:07:17Z pjb: Vivitron: yes, you misunderstood.  We are discussion a special case, not setf in all generality.
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2014-05-22T19:15:46Z stassats`: and, in reality, get-setf-expansion _is_ setf
2014-05-22T19:18:50Z Xach: mega1: mgl depending on cl-cuda is giving me Problems :(
2014-05-22T19:19:01Z mega1: don't update it
2014-05-22T19:19:02Z Xach: I don't *think* I have hardware that can build cl-cuda
2014-05-22T19:19:10Z Xach: mega1: ok
2014-05-22T19:19:34Z mega1: my cl-cuda branch is needed anyway
2014-05-22T19:19:39Z Xach: oh
2014-05-22T19:19:41Z Xach: fooey
2014-05-22T19:19:48Z mega1: and the maintainer of cl-cuda is working on merging it
2014-05-22T19:19:58Z mega1: but it takes time.
2014-05-22T19:20:35Z mega1: (because he's also doing some refactoring)
2014-05-22T19:20:42Z Xach: ok, i'll try to take the old mgl for now
2014-05-22T19:20:57Z mega1: yes, please
2014-05-22T19:21:08Z stassats`: so, how good is cl-cuda?
2014-05-22T19:21:16Z stassats`: does it make things go faster?
2014-05-22T19:21:19Z mega1: with my changes? cool
2014-05-22T19:22:12Z mega1: the neural networks I use it for got ~10x faster
2014-05-22T19:22:32Z mega1: but I had to write mgl-mat to keep my sanity
2014-05-22T19:22:34Z stassats`: compared to?
2014-05-22T19:22:47Z mega1: compared to running it on the cpu with blas
2014-05-22T19:22:48Z Xach wonders if he should rent time on a cuda-capable AWS server
2014-05-22T19:22:57Z nyef: Xach: "NIL is not of type SB-C::IR2-BLOCK" should now be fixed in SBCL HEAD. I don't *THINK* I broke anything else while fixing it.
2014-05-22T19:23:18Z mega1: xach: they are pretty behind the times hardwarewise and expensive.
2014-05-22T19:23:37Z mega1: I had to buy real hardware for this endeavour.
2014-05-22T19:24:04Z Xach: mega1: pity
2014-05-22T19:24:06Z stassats`: i don't do anything interesting enough for cuda to help
2014-05-22T19:24:26Z Xach: mega1: can you suggest some? i am looking to upgrade
2014-05-22T19:24:35Z Bike: is CUDA still preferred over OpenCL
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2014-05-22T19:24:40Z Xach: my quicklisp build box is getting old
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2014-05-22T19:25:19Z mega1: Xach: wrt hw being needed to build, it may be enough to install the cuda dev tools
2014-05-22T19:25:39Z Bike: stassats`: surely there must be some task in sbcl compilation that could be super parallelized, the program's so big :p
2014-05-22T19:25:51Z Xach: mega1: oh, ool
2014-05-22T19:25:54Z mega1: mgl-mat falls back on non-cuda anyways
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2014-05-22T19:26:11Z mega1: the operative word here is "may"
2014-05-22T19:26:20Z mega1: I'll try it someday.
2014-05-22T19:26:31Z stassats`: the fastest haswell SKU is great at building things
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2014-05-22T19:26:36Z mega1: since I'd like to get mgl-mat into quicklisp.
2014-05-22T19:26:38Z stassats`: i can build and test sbcl in under 10 minutes
2014-05-22T19:26:43Z mega1: but first the merge to cl-cuda ...
2014-05-22T19:26:43Z Bike: dang.
2014-05-22T19:27:20Z mega1: Bike: yes. It's more mature and has a faster for BLAS implementation (cublas).
2014-05-22T19:27:28Z Bike: aw.
2014-05-22T19:27:47Z mega1: And I wanted to have good double precision performance too which comes with a titan.
2014-05-22T19:28:24Z nyef: I'd like a parallelized SBCL build myself, for various reasons, but am not at all sure how to go about it.
2014-05-22T19:28:56Z stassats`: SBCL performs many different things intertwined, so cuda will unlikely to help
2014-05-22T19:29:18Z mega1: yes, it's unlikely
2014-05-22T19:29:37Z mega1: it would be a rewrite
2014-05-22T19:29:45Z stassats`: maybe register coloring or something like that
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2014-05-22T19:33:45Z mega1: BTW, https://github.com/melisgl/mgl-mat uses mgl-pax to generate the docs.
2014-05-22T19:34:00Z stassats`: is mgl-pax using cl-cuda?
2014-05-22T19:34:26Z mega1: README.md on the github pages is ok. Here is the html version: http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/melisgl/mgl-mat/blob/master/doc/mat-manual.html
2014-05-22T19:34:47Z mega1: stassats`: I'll have to work on it to make it slow enough first.
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2014-05-22T19:35:50Z mega1: I find pax really nice. It makes me write docs.
2014-05-22T19:35:51Z mega1: http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/melisgl/mgl-pax/blob/master/doc/pax-manual.html
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2014-05-22T19:36:19Z mega1: I plan to clean up mgl itself too and document it.
2014-05-22T19:36:39Z Xach: mega1: is there a tag or branch i can use to get the pre-cuda mgl?
2014-05-22T19:37:01Z mega1: not yet
2014-05-22T19:37:15Z Xach: Would you be so kind as to make one sometime?
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2014-05-22T19:37:46Z mega1: on it
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2014-05-22T19:38:58Z Xach: Thank you
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2014-05-22T19:42:55Z mega1: Xach: and the tag is ...: v0.0.5-pre-cuda
2014-05-22T19:43:16Z mega1: there is only one huge commit after it
2014-05-22T19:43:29Z mega1: I didn't have the energy to rebase it to bits.
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2014-05-22T19:46:27Z jasom: I'll never understand why the linux OOM killer prefers to kill vital system processes over an SBCL image that is using up 75% of resident RAM
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2014-05-22T19:52:10Z Xach: mega1: thanks
2014-05-22T19:52:41Z Xach: mega1: hmm, i was pulling from quotenil.com. should i switch to github?
2014-05-22T19:52:59Z mega1: Xach: MGL still lives on quotenil.com
2014-05-22T19:53:05Z Xach: ok, thanks.
2014-05-22T19:53:11Z mega1: the newer stuff is on github
2014-05-22T19:53:20Z mega1: and eventually MGL will migrate too, I guess
2014-05-22T19:54:24Z |3b|: dim: don't know if it applies to pgloader, but one thing that sometimes helps when SBCL GC isn't cooperating is to break up any large tree/list/graph type structures before they become garbage
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2014-05-22T19:55:54Z Fare: mega1, hi
2014-05-22T19:55:55Z mega1: as a way to reduce the impact of conservatism?
2014-05-22T19:56:01Z mega1: hello
2014-05-22T19:56:57Z Fare: dim: in your 25x speedup, did you see where python is wasting its time that Lisp does so much better?
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2014-05-22T20:02:54Z bege: hY, could someone point me to the doc of #.?
2014-05-22T20:03:07Z bege: I always forget its name, and it is impossible to search for...
2014-05-22T20:03:33Z Xach: bege: l1sp.org/cl/2.4.8.6
2014-05-22T20:03:52Z bege: Xach: thank you!
2014-05-22T20:04:48Z pjb: Fare: counting spaces? :-)
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2014-05-22T20:07:42Z abbe: jasom: not sure about sbcl, but I guess something to do with OOM scoring, like sshd adjusts its to avoid killed
2014-05-22T20:08:15Z pjb: I guess it's parameterisable, since obviously, Android uses another algorithm.
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2014-05-22T20:08:27Z heddwch: Android just uses a different oom killer
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2014-05-22T20:10:46Z stassats`: clhs #.
2014-05-22T20:10:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm
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2014-05-22T20:36:55Z jasom: Someone tell me this has been done before: Composable iterators that work by macro-expansion similar to setf
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2014-05-22T20:38:21Z Bike: i'm not sure what composition means for iterators.
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2014-05-22T20:39:33Z jasom: Example: (list &rest lists)  makes an iterator out of one or more lists, (repeat iter &optional (n 2)) will repeat an iterator N times, then this happens: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142657
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2014-05-22T20:41:29Z |3b|: does series do anything like that?
2014-05-22T20:42:01Z jasom: |3b|: it's a similar goal, but I had trouble following the series example last time I read it.
2014-05-22T20:42:04Z Bike: So you get (a b c a b c a b c a b c) (1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4)?
2014-05-22T20:42:18Z jasom: Bike: ((a 1) (a 1) (a 1) (a 1) ...)
2014-05-22T20:42:30Z oGMo: iolib appears to be failing to load in sbcl due to defpackage errors
2014-05-22T20:42:40Z jasom: oGMo: update ASDF?
2014-05-22T20:42:54Z oGMo: jasom: it's pretty recent, but i'll check
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2014-05-22T21:14:44Z jasom: Bike: here's another example (compress works like the python itertools compress; it takes 2 iterators, and it skips every element in the 1st iterator when the corresponding element is false in the 2nd iterator)
2014-05-22T21:14:49Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142657#1
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2014-05-22T21:15:53Z Bike: i'm curious about the collect syntax here, do-iterator sounds like something that just has a boring ol' body
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2014-05-22T21:16:17Z jasom: Bike: I used (loop) as the basis of the body, should I call it "loop iterator" instead?
2014-05-22T21:17:07Z jasom: Any loop clauses that do not have to appear at the top are valid in the body
2014-05-22T21:17:30Z jasom: so early returns, finally, collect, etc. are all valid
2014-05-22T21:17:51Z Bike: is there a version that does just have a body? (trivially defined from this, obviously...)
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2014-05-22T21:18:02Z jasom: there could be
2014-05-22T21:18:30Z Bike: because, yeah, i guess if it's called do-iterator i'd expect it to be like dolist and so on.
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2014-05-22T21:18:34Z jasom: right
2014-05-22T21:18:52Z jasom: and it would take a result-form instead
2014-05-22T21:19:18Z jasom: do-iterator (vars iterator-form [result-form[)
2014-05-22T21:19:25Z Bike: also, for your earlier question of whether anyone's done this, i assume you've seen iterate, which is the closest thing i can think of since series is... series
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2014-05-22T21:21:25Z Bike: and the SEQUENCES extension, which has something called "iterators" but only vaguely resembles this
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2014-05-22T21:23:15Z jasom: iterate is more about making a better loop, the drivers do offer extensibility but I'm not sure how to do something like what I've shown in iterate; that's not to say it doesn't solve this problem, just that I'm not familiar enough with iterate
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2014-05-22T21:26:03Z jasom: Bike: actually reading A.3.4 of the iterate documentation makes me think that iterate isn't designed to do generalized composable iterators like this.
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2014-05-22T21:26:23Z Bike: jasom: probably not, i'm just thinking of possible wheels to avoid reinventing
2014-05-22T21:26:29Z jasom: right
2014-05-22T21:26:36Z jasom: I think series is the only possible wheel I'm reinventing
2014-05-22T21:26:52Z jasom: But I couldn't understand series well enough to tell if I am or am not reinventing it
2014-05-22T21:27:09Z jasom: Maybe I should re-read it; it's been 6 months since I read it.
2014-05-22T21:27:20Z Bike: series is old enough that it could use reinvention
2014-05-22T21:27:45Z Bike: jasom: there's also this thing pkhuong did for a bit https://github.com/pkhuong/Pipes
2014-05-22T21:27:49Z jasom: Anyway the example I showed has 116 total lines backing it, including the 3 iterator implementations
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2014-05-22T21:28:33Z jasom: speaking of which, if I want my own name-space is there a better way to do it than a special hash-table and an (eval-when ... (setf (gethash symbol *special-table*) .. )))
2014-05-22T21:28:51Z jasom: This is so that (define-iterator-expander ...) doesn't clobber other names
2014-05-22T21:28:56Z Bike: probably not, really
2014-05-22T21:29:04Z Bike: might have problems if you want to add scoping later
2014-05-22T21:29:24Z jasom: Scoping... like (iterator-expander-let ...) ?
2014-05-22T21:29:30Z jasom: yeah, I'm not that adventurous
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2014-05-22T21:29:31Z Bike: I guess.
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2014-05-22T22:09:12Z jasom: Bike: renmaed do-iterator to loop-iterator and added a do-iterator as you suggested: (let ((sum 0)) (do-iterator ((_ b) (repeat (list '(a b c) '(1 2 3 4))) sum) (incf sum b))) => 12
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2014-05-22T23:43:50Z drmeister: So the C++ static analyzer I wrote in my Common Lisp environment to help me write a garbage colleciton interface to the Memory Pool System finally locked up my Common Lisp environment.
2014-05-22T23:44:11Z drmeister: Reference counting has become inadequate.
2014-05-22T23:44:35Z drmeister: So I spent the last day incorporating the Boehm garbage collector.   I'm back up and running with Boehm.
2014-05-22T23:44:52Z stassats: no MPS?
2014-05-22T23:44:58Z drmeister: Hopefully this will let me run the static analyzer to completion so that I can incorporate MPS.
2014-05-22T23:45:18Z stassats: i see
2014-05-22T23:45:38Z drmeister: Oh no - I'm way to invested in MPS at this stage.  It's do or die.
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2014-05-22T23:46:19Z drmeister: But as I was enhancing the static analyzer it was taking longer and longer to run and the memory usage started locking up my machine.
2014-05-22T23:46:23Z drmeister: It was frustrating.
2014-05-22T23:46:25Z nyef: Not much of one for the phrase "sunk cost fallacy", huh?
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2014-05-22T23:46:53Z drmeister: nyef: Nope - I have no idea what that means :-)
2014-05-22T23:47:01Z nyef: Heh.
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2014-05-22T23:47:53Z drmeister: Boehm took me about 5 hours to incorporate - 3 hours to convince boost build to support three different builds (refcount, boehm, mps) and 2 to get Boehm working.
2014-05-22T23:48:30Z stassats: you could buy more memory faster
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2014-05-22T23:48:54Z stassats: unless it's already maxed out
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2014-05-22T23:52:45Z drmeister: After running about 8 hours in one thread the static analyzer seized up my machine (16GB ram) with 54GB of virtual memory.   That's when I gave up on reference counting.   It was always just a stop-gap.
2014-05-22T23:53:49Z drmeister: The static analyzer process was using 54 GB of virtual memory.   Right now I think it's uncollected memory cycles.
2014-05-22T23:54:21Z nyef: If your GC is into swap space, you're already sunk.
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2014-05-22T23:59:10Z drmeister: nyef: That was using reference counting on all objects, no collection of memory cycles.
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2014-05-23T00:08:00Z Bike: you're using boehm /and/ MPS, now?
2014-05-23T00:10:48Z nyef: It's actually kindof neat, in a way, similar to how SBCL uses both CHENEYGC and GENCGC on PPC and SPARC.
2014-05-23T00:11:08Z Bike: at once/
2014-05-23T00:11:17Z nyef: No. Not at the same time.
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2014-05-23T00:12:04Z nyef: But you can build the gencgc version from a cheneygc host and vice versa, which is about where drmeister is, trying to get the MPS version working from Boehm.
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2014-05-23T00:13:28Z drmeister: Exactly - getting the MPS version working from Boehm  - I'm just modifying my CL compiler to eliminate C++ destructor calls when not using reference counting.
2014-05-23T00:13:53Z drmeister: It will be interesting (to me at least) to benchmark reference counting vs Boehm vs MPS.
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2014-05-23T00:19:52Z brucem: drmeister: hey
2014-05-23T00:20:40Z brucem: drmeister: rptb1 told me that they've got some benchmark apps now showing MPS being roughly 2x Boehm ... he wants me to finish up getting side-by-side Boehm / MPS in our language so they can look at that as well.
2014-05-23T00:20:48Z brucem: drmeister: so he'll be happy if you can do the same :)
2014-05-23T00:20:57Z drmeister: brucem: Hi!   David Lovemore (Ravenbrook) has been an enormous help over the past weeks.   I'm getting closer and closer to getting MPS working.
2014-05-23T00:21:02Z brucem: drmeister: I'm just distracted this week by being in the middle of a coup.
2014-05-23T00:21:28Z drmeister: Yeah - I saw that.    What does one say?
2014-05-23T00:21:31Z Bike: eh? thailand?
2014-05-23T00:21:35Z brucem: Bike: yeah.
2014-05-23T00:21:44Z Bike: eesh, good luck
2014-05-23T00:21:53Z brucem: it is safe.
2014-05-23T00:22:01Z JuanDaugherty: it was hardly unexpected
2014-05-23T00:22:02Z brucem: just ... stressful for foreigners.
2014-05-23T00:22:37Z JuanDaugherty: the damn president/whatever was sacked by the supreme judiciary
2014-05-23T00:23:07Z brucem: JuanDaugherty: offtopic for here, much as I've love to discuss it :)
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2014-05-23T00:24:23Z JuanDaugherty: lol, k. Anybody use lparallel? And why is ql iolib 2.30 but the developers site is 2.9.something?
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2014-05-23T00:34:06Z drmeister: Is anyone familiar with the Boehm GC?   Specifically what does "GC Warning: Finalization cycle involving XXXXX"  - is it just telling me I've got a memory cycle?
2014-05-23T00:34:48Z drmeister: Actually I know what's wrong - I'm registering way too many finalizers.
2014-05-23T00:34:53Z Bike: http://www.hpl.hp.com/hosted/linux/mail-archives/gc/2009-June/002786.html seems so
2014-05-23T00:35:46Z drmeister: Bike: Thanks - I read that one.   I think I'm getting a lot of these because right now I'm finalizing almost every class.
2014-05-23T00:36:04Z drmeister: The static analyzer calculates what does and doesn't need to be finalized.
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2014-05-23T00:36:19Z drmeister: A bit of a catch 22...
2014-05-23T00:36:35Z Bike: "much like cyclic destruction"
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2014-05-23T00:39:03Z drmeister: I wish I could get more information than just a pointer value:   GC Warning: Finalization cycle involving 0x10cbb6c40
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2014-05-23T00:43:06Z Bike: maybe there's some way to let gdb know what kind of object a memory block is.
2014-05-23T00:44:40Z nyef: You mean like having some sort of object header that contains type information?
2014-05-23T00:45:01Z Bike: crazy, i know
2014-05-23T00:45:25Z nyef: Who'd want that in this modern RAII world?
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2014-05-23T00:51:02Z antonv: hi
2014-05-23T00:51:54Z antonv: I am getting HTTP 403 Forbidden for my files at common-lisp.net
2014-05-23T00:51:57Z antonv: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-test-grid/library/
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2014-05-23T00:52:13Z antonv: is there anyone who know how to fix that?
2014-05-23T00:53:17Z antonv: all files under /project/cl-test-grid/public_html/ have read permissions
2014-05-23T00:53:23Z antonv: for everyone
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2014-05-23T00:58:20Z zRecursive: antonv: http://common-lisp.net/project => not found
2014-05-23T00:59:49Z antonv: zRecursive: what do you mean? Compare: http://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/
2014-05-23T00:59:52Z stassats: zRecursive: that doesn't mean anything
2014-05-23T01:00:10Z zRecursive: oh
2014-05-23T01:00:38Z zRecursive: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-test-grid/library/ forbidden too
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2014-05-23T01:01:37Z stassats: antonv: and what about public_html/ ? does it have read and execute for everyone?
2014-05-23T01:02:47Z antonv: stassats: thanks, execute was missing
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2014-05-23T01:15:27Z drmeister: My static analyzer defined the object header that contains type information.
2014-05-23T01:15:53Z drmeister: s/defined/defines/g
2014-05-23T01:16:01Z drmeister sighs
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2014-05-23T01:16:54Z Bike: Haha.
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2014-05-23T01:34:27Z andreh: I'd like to write a macro that expands itself into multiple lists.
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2014-05-23T01:34:43Z andreh: The idea draft is here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142658
2014-05-23T01:35:07Z Bike: andreh: progn
2014-05-23T01:35:09Z andreh: The problem with this one is the consecutive backquote and comma-at
2014-05-23T01:35:36Z andreh: But progn will yield only the last list.
2014-05-23T01:35:36Z Bike: just eliminate the outer backquote.
2014-05-23T01:35:49Z Bike: well, do something to combine the values then. like, call list, for instance.
2014-05-23T01:35:56Z Bike: `(list ,@(mapcar ...))
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2014-05-23T01:36:25Z Bike: actually, i don't think this should be a macro.
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2014-05-23T01:37:12Z andreh: Should it be a function with multiple values, then?
2014-05-23T01:37:35Z sellout: andreh: Either multiple-values or a list … I think a list actually seems more appropriate.
2014-05-23T01:37:42Z Bike: yeah a list should be fine
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2014-05-23T01:38:22Z Bike: (defun multi-getf (plist &rest keys) (mapcar (lambda (k) (getf plist k)) keys))
2014-05-23T01:38:26Z sellout: In that (apply #'something (multi-getf …)) is shorter than multiple-value-call ;)
2014-05-23T01:41:05Z andreh: Yeah, apply solves everything. I's complicating too much and didn't even considered it
2014-05-23T01:41:07Z andreh: Thanks
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2014-05-23T01:47:21Z slyrus: Xach: been off in the desert for 12 days. do I have bugs to fix?
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2014-05-23T02:48:06Z Xach: slyrus: SO MANY
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2014-05-23T03:48:41Z en16m4666: teach me
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2014-05-23T05:04:19Z slyrus: Xach: oh? bummer...
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2014-05-23T08:27:43Z yh: ("hello")
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2014-05-23T08:50:20Z shwouchk: Hello
2014-05-23T08:51:12Z shwouchk: I'm unclear on the difference between a 'symbol' and the identifier for that symbol
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2014-05-23T08:53:31Z mal_: could you be a bit more concrete?
2014-05-23T08:54:44Z shwouchk: mal_: the definition of symbol
2014-05-23T08:55:10Z mal_: a symbol is a lisp object
2014-05-23T08:55:21Z H4ns: with a name
2014-05-23T08:55:25Z shwouchk: If I write 'foo, did I write the symbol? the name of the symbol?
2014-05-23T08:55:28Z pjb: shwouchk: no difference.  Symbols are used as identifiers.
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2014-05-23T08:55:43Z pjb: shwouchk: however, not all symbols are used as identifiers.
2014-05-23T08:55:43Z H4ns: shwouchk: you wrote the name of a symbol.
2014-05-23T08:55:55Z shwouchk: pjb: so there is a difference
2014-05-23T08:55:58Z H4ns: shwouchk: the lisp reader finds the symbol for you.
2014-05-23T08:56:08Z pjb: In: (let ((x 1)) (list 'x x 'y 42))  x is used as an identifier, and as a symbol itself, and y is just a symbol.
2014-05-23T08:56:11Z mal_: well, strictly speaking he wrote (QUOTE FOO)
2014-05-23T08:56:29Z shwouchk: H4ns: so in correct terminology, 'foo is an identifier?
2014-05-23T08:56:45Z pjb: shwouchk: the difference is only potential: it depends on what symbols you use in source sexps.
2014-05-23T08:56:59Z H4ns: shwouchk: for correct terminology, refer to the clhs
2014-05-23T08:57:24Z pjb: and it's dynamic: once you compile an expression, the identifiers of lexical variable are possibly disconnected from those variables, so the symbols don't identify them anymore.
2014-05-23T08:57:31Z shwouchk: H4ns:I came here since I did not understand the CLHS
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2014-05-23T08:58:00Z shwouchk: P.S. these follow after reading the terminology of http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html (and browsing the CLHS afterwards)
2014-05-23T08:58:08Z H4ns: shwouchk: i see.  well, i'm no expert on correct terminology and need to pass :)
2014-05-23T08:58:19Z pjb: shwouchk: identifier is a term from other languages.  It doesn't mean much in Lisp.
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2014-05-23T08:59:15Z shwouchk: pjb: ok, so what does mean something?
2014-05-23T08:59:19Z pjb: What is called an identifier with other languages is a data structure that exists only in the compiler.  In the case of lisp, the compiler uses symbols instead.  Symbols are available to the programmer, both at compilation time, when you write macros, or at run-time.
2014-05-23T08:59:36Z pjb: So what matters, is symbols and bindings (variables).
2014-05-23T08:59:46Z antoszka: shwouchk: www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf
2014-05-23T09:00:00Z antoszka: shwouchk: have a look at this, too (and don't be put off by the title)
2014-05-23T09:00:25Z shwouchk: antoszka: thanks!
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2014-05-23T09:01:55Z shwouchk: pjb: I don't understand your example, it turns out :)
2014-05-23T09:02:27Z shwouchk: perhaps I'll read antoszka's article first and then come back :)
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2014-05-23T09:02:49Z antoszka: not mine, unfortunately :)
2014-05-23T09:03:01Z shwouchk: :)
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2014-05-23T09:03:33Z antoszka: but helped me a lot with understanding all the symbol peculiarities
2014-05-23T09:04:21Z shwouchk: Its just that reading the article I mentioned, I saw that apparently I don't really understand what's what
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2014-05-23T09:07:30Z antoszka: shwouchk: Think of it as a useful data type (something like a lightweight string) that also happens to be used right in the code for writing the source. There's no bullshit in „code is data” here ;)
2014-05-23T09:08:10Z mal_: lisp programs are list of lisp objects, and the compiler doesn't know or care how they get created. you can write (car '(1 2)) or (#.(intern (concatenate 'string "C" "A" "R")) '(1 2)) and the resulting effect will be the same
2014-05-23T09:08:12Z antoszka: shwouchk: In a Lisp-1 a symbol's name is identical to its "value".
2014-05-23T09:09:09Z antoszka: shwouchk: In common lisp (which is a so-called lisp-2) a symbol can carry more information other than it's name, and some value bound to it (to which the symbol evaluates).
2014-05-23T09:09:10Z mal_: in the second example, you can't really see the identifier "car"
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2014-05-23T09:10:46Z shwouchk: antoszka: the clhs and the article I cited explain something different, as far as I understand - a symbol is supposedly some sort of object that has a value, function, plist, and name associated with it
2014-05-23T09:11:13Z antoszka: shwouchk: Yeah, that's what I'm saying with regards to CL/Lisp-2.
2014-05-23T09:12:22Z shwouchk: mal_: shouldn't it be #'?
2014-05-23T09:12:29Z shwouchk: rather than #.
2014-05-23T09:12:56Z antoszka: shwouchk: There are "slots" which the symbol holds. One is for the name, then there's a symbol plist (like a small metadata holder), a slot for a value bound to the symbol (like you'd expect from a variable), a slot for a function bound to it, etc. (defvar foo "123") and (defun foo () (print "blah")) will bind the string "123" to the value slot and the function to the function slot.
2014-05-23T09:13:08Z mal_: no. #. I'm telling the reader to evaluate the expression at read time
2014-05-23T09:13:25Z shwouchk: I see
2014-05-23T09:13:27Z antoszka: shwouchk: Which will be accessed in certain evaluation contexts.
2014-05-23T09:14:43Z antoszka: shwouchk: http://wklej.org/id/1370099/ ← like this
2014-05-23T09:17:12Z shwouchk: antoszka: well, AFAIU, the difference between lisp-1 and lisp-2 is simply that in lisp-1 there is no special namespace (cell in each symbol) for functions. Why should I infer that they cannot have plists attached to them? also, what's the point of a symbol's name being its value? or are you saying that a symbol whose value is '(1 2 3 4) will also be named '(1 2 3 4)?
2014-05-23T09:17:49Z antoszka: shwouchk: http://wklej.org/id/1370100/ ← you may then access the individual slots
2014-05-23T09:18:10Z antoszka: shwouchk: no, you're confusing the value *bound* to the symbol with its name
2014-05-23T09:18:18Z shwouchk: ok, explain
2014-05-23T09:18:22Z antoszka: shwouchk: which is what I meant by it's "value", sorry I wasn't clear
2014-05-23T09:19:00Z antoszka: so the symbol has a name, which is usually it's printed and written form, and some other stuff in the other "slots" (as shown in the various symbol-* functions).
2014-05-23T09:19:07Z shwouchk: from what I understand, having a value bound to a symbol is equivalent to its symbol-value holding some data
2014-05-23T09:19:36Z antoszka: well, yeah.
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2014-05-23T09:20:17Z shwouchk: antoszka: you claimed, unless I misunderstood you (probably), that in lisp-1 a symbol's name and its value are the same
2014-05-23T09:21:21Z antoszka: yeah, I didn't word it correctly. I had in mind the name, or the "value" if you look at the symbol alone, treat it as a lightweight string.
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2014-05-23T09:21:47Z antoszka: I did not mean the value *bound* to the symbol (as in: a variable or function)
2014-05-23T09:24:44Z shwouchk: antoszka: and this is not what it is in lisp-2?
2014-05-23T09:25:41Z antoszka: in lisp-1 a symbol has a name (once you call it to life, by, say, writing 'foo in a repl), and *may* have a value bound to it (a function, a string, whatever)
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2014-05-23T09:26:09Z antoszka: in common lisp it's roughly the same, except the same symbol may have *more* than just a single value bound to it
2014-05-23T09:26:23Z antoszka: (because there are the slots)
2014-05-23T09:27:39Z antoszka: (or namespaces if somebody prefers that metaphor)
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2014-05-23T09:28:58Z shwouchk: antoszka: well, that's the terminology from the article, which I assumed to be standard
2014-05-23T09:29:08Z shwouchk: anyway, that much is clear
2014-05-23T09:29:37Z splittist: Back in the day, characters and even some numbers were symbols.
2014-05-23T09:29:46Z shwouchk: aha
2014-05-23T09:30:03Z shwouchk: splittist: why was this changed?
2014-05-23T09:30:05Z antoszka: I don't personally think namespaces is a lucky wording choice for the idea. I reckon that thinking in terms of named slots in a symbol is conceptually easier.
2014-05-23T09:32:54Z mal_: you can reuse symbols as throw tags etc so there is stuff that forms a namespace that isn't in the symbol itself
2014-05-23T09:33:29Z antoszka: shwouchk: http://wklej.org/id/1370106/ ← you can stick a function object in the value slot if you like, but than you have to call that object using funcall instead of just (foo 4).
2014-05-23T09:33:36Z antoszka: shwouchk: in a Scheme, you could say (foo 4).
2014-05-23T09:33:46Z shwouchk: antoszka: I understand that very well
2014-05-23T09:33:50Z antoszka: okay, cool
2014-05-23T09:33:50Z shwouchk: mal_:
2014-05-23T09:34:41Z shwouchk: Is it correct perhaps that a symbol is a data structure, same as integers, strings, etc?
2014-05-23T09:34:51Z mal_: yes
2014-05-23T09:35:27Z shwouchk: ok
2014-05-23T09:35:31Z shwouchk: I think I get it now
2014-05-23T09:36:20Z shwouchk: it is just another data structure that has global access mechanism
2014-05-23T09:36:35Z shwouchk: (by prefixing the symbol-name with ')
2014-05-23T09:36:38Z shwouchk: quote
2014-05-23T09:36:45Z shwouchk: is this correct?
2014-05-23T09:36:48Z splittist: shwouchk: also meditate upon set vs setq
2014-05-23T09:37:44Z mal_: quote is more general
2014-05-23T09:37:54Z splittist: shwouchk: no, quote is about the evaluation of things
2014-05-23T09:39:11Z splittist: shwouchk: sometimes, when people want to emphasise the symbol-nature of a name they'll refer to 'foo (rather than foo), but it is the thing named by "FOO" that is the symbol.
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2014-05-23T09:40:55Z shwouchk: splittist: (let ((x 1)) (symbol-name x)) would suggest otherwise?
2014-05-23T09:41:13Z shwouchk: or am I misunderstanding you again?
2014-05-23T09:42:13Z mal_: 'nil = nil = '() = () but most style guides have recommendations depending on the use
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2014-05-23T09:43:26Z shwouchk: mal_: fine, but does that mean that every other symbol is the same quoted and unquoted?
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2014-05-23T09:44:10Z shwouchk: splittist: (let ((x 'x)) (symbol-name x)) however works well
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2014-05-23T09:44:43Z mal_: no. (quote x) returns x unevaluated
2014-05-23T09:44:57Z splittist: shwouchk: Yes. You're looking at evaluation again. The function SYMBOL-NAME gets passed the results of evaluating its arguments. When the evaluator gets to the symbol x it tries to find its value.
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2014-05-23T09:45:00Z shwouchk: and so does (let ((y 'x)) (symbol-name y))
2014-05-23T09:45:45Z shwouchk: splittist: but at the point of the call, x was not a symbol!
2014-05-23T09:45:49Z shwouchk: or was it?
2014-05-23T09:45:49Z splittist: shwouchk: when it gets to (quote x), the evaluator 'runs' QUOTE and returns the symbol x.
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2014-05-23T09:46:33Z splittist: (symbol-name 'x) (symbol-name 'x) (symbol-name :x) (symbol-name (gensym))
2014-05-23T09:46:36Z shwouchk: mal_: well, yes
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2014-05-23T09:47:35Z splittist: (forgive the repetition)
2014-05-23T09:47:57Z shwouchk: splittist: what was the point? (P.S., 'x and :x are not the same symbol)
2014-05-23T09:48:02Z nyef: clhs set-difference
2014-05-23T09:48:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_di.htm
2014-05-23T09:48:03Z shwouchk: but you probably know that
2014-05-23T09:48:19Z mal_: yeah now you're adding a different hack that keyword symbols are constant and self evaluating
2014-05-23T09:48:24Z shwouchk: nyef: was that meant at me?
2014-05-23T09:48:35Z nyef: No, it was for me.
2014-05-23T09:48:40Z shwouchk: ah, ok
2014-05-23T09:49:41Z nyef: I've thought of something that is a very likely consistency test for some state that winds up in an infinite loop, and I *THINK* that SET-DIFFERENCE might be the easiest way to express it.
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2014-05-23T09:51:37Z splittist: shwouchk: I'm not sure what you're trying to understand (: You are essentially correct about the nature of symbols, it is the nature of quote/evaluation where I'm not following you.
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2014-05-23T09:55:02Z shwouchk: splittist: sorry, maybe I got confused for a moment regarding the nature of quoting while trying to understand symbols :). So to summarize, symbols are special data structures to which unevaluated character strings refer
2014-05-23T09:55:11Z shwouchk: splittist: confirm?
2014-05-23T09:56:19Z JuanDaugherty: symbols are just damn symbols
2014-05-23T09:56:30Z JuanDaugherty: it's a pretty primitive concept
2014-05-23T09:56:35Z shwouchk: JuanDaugherty: excellent definition
2014-05-23T09:56:54Z JuanDaugherty: a name bound to a string
2014-05-23T09:56:54Z mal_: and the mapping from strings to symbols is a package
2014-05-23T09:57:17Z mal_: look at INTERN and FIND-SYMBOL
2014-05-23T09:57:32Z shwouchk: actually, I disagree with what I wrote
2014-05-23T09:57:41Z splittist: shwouchk: good (:
2014-05-23T09:57:44Z shwouchk: heh
2014-05-23T09:57:52Z nyef: The package doesn't establish the mapping, it establishes which SET of symbols are candidates to be mapped in certain contexts.
2014-05-23T09:58:14Z shwouchk: nyef: forget packages just yet :)
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2014-05-23T09:58:47Z shwouchk: because: (setq x 1) (let ((x 'x)) (symbol-value 'x)) gives 1 rather than X
2014-05-23T09:59:28Z mal_: now you're invoking undefined behaviour if x wasn't defined before that setq
2014-05-23T10:00:08Z shwouchk: ah
2014-05-23T10:00:12Z shwouchk: so a bug in my code
2014-05-23T10:00:30Z shwouchk: you are right, changing the setq to defvar makes it return X
2014-05-23T10:00:54Z nyef: You're also looking at the difference between lexical and special binding.
2014-05-23T10:01:05Z mal_: it does, but you're probably not grokking why :)
2014-05-23T10:01:20Z shwouchk: mal_: explain
2014-05-23T10:02:08Z shwouchk: please
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2014-05-23T10:06:44Z splittist: shwouchk: symbols are a data structure with a bunch of slots, one of which is a name. Put that in your pocket, you're done. Everything beyond that is about how lisp evaluates symbols. Which is fine, but since lisp code is largely symbols, that means everything beyond that is almost everything else about lisp. It's like moving from 'what is a number' to 'how
2014-05-23T10:06:44Z splittist: does mathematics work'. It needs to be done, and there is no bright line once you start looking closely, but it is a jump (:
2014-05-23T10:08:09Z shwouchk: nyef: fine, in: (let ((z 'z)) (symbol-value 'z)) I have nothing to do with special variables. a debugger is invoked as expected, because the unevaluated z is still unbound. This to me means that the z bound in the let form was not a symbol and therefore that not every unevaluated character string is a symbol
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2014-05-23T10:09:45Z nyef: And you're still looking at a difference in BINDING, not a difference between a SYMBOL and something else.
2014-05-23T10:09:49Z splittist: shwouchk: what does "unevaluated" mean in that sentence?
2014-05-23T10:10:03Z shwouchk: splittist: very bad analogy, imho. If you really want to answer the question "what is a number?", you already must get fairly deeply into mathematics (several first year courses)
2014-05-23T10:10:56Z shwouchk: nyef: please explain? From what I understand, a binding is something in the symbol-value of a symbol
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2014-05-23T10:11:27Z nyef: A binding is an association between a symbol and a value (or a lack of a value).
2014-05-23T10:12:12Z nyef: But there are several different types of bindings, each with different semantics.
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2014-05-23T10:12:23Z shwouchk: nyef: as I said, roughly. Yours is more exact :).. So, in what manner is my example related to bindings and not symbols?
2014-05-23T10:12:34Z shwouchk: nyef: I'm listening
2014-05-23T10:12:54Z nyef: SYMBOL-VALUE always looks up the current dynamic binding of a symbol.
2014-05-23T10:13:17Z nyef: (a.k.a. the current "special" binding)
2014-05-23T10:13:49Z nyef: LET, by default, establishes lexical bindings, which are invisible to SYMBOL-VALUE.
2014-05-23T10:13:57Z shwouchk: splittist: supposedly what it means in any sentence? unevaluated means that the character string (or symbol or whatever) is passed on, whereas evaluated means that the value of the form/symbol/variable is passed on?
2014-05-23T10:14:37Z nyef: There are also "function" bindings, which are more of an advanced topic.
2014-05-23T10:14:47Z splittist: shwouchk: I think you are mixing together the reader and the evaluator. What is 123?
2014-05-23T10:15:05Z shwouchk: nyef: ok, perhaps I missed this fact about SYMBOL-VALUE. How would one look up the lexical bindings of a symbol?
2014-05-23T10:15:36Z nyef: (let ((x 42)) (values x (symbol-value 'x))) should highlight the difference nicely.
2014-05-23T10:15:41Z shwouchk: splittist: a character string that evaluates to the number 123?
2014-05-23T10:15:58Z shwouchk: or to the symbol 123 if held unevaluated?
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2014-05-23T10:16:51Z shwouchk: nyef: would you kindly answer though?
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2014-05-23T10:17:56Z nyef: You don't "look up" the lexical binding, you just use the symbol where you want the value. Try the example I posted.
2014-05-23T10:17:57Z H4ns: shwouchk: you can't look up the lexical bindings of a symbol the same way as you can do with a dynamic binding.
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2014-05-23T10:18:10Z shwouchk: nyef: I get the debugger invoked here for your example
2014-05-23T10:18:40Z nyef: Right, you'll want to do the undefined-behavior thing and actually setf the symbol-value at toplevel first.
2014-05-23T10:18:41Z shwouchk: H4ns: why not?
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2014-05-23T10:18:55Z shwouchk: just not implemented/not in the language spec?
2014-05-23T10:19:06Z H4ns: shwouchk: because there is no way to do it.  the cl compiler does not give you a function to do it.
2014-05-23T10:19:06Z nyef: (Actually, you should be able to setf the symbol-value without invoking undefined behavior, whereas setfing the symbol would be undefined behavior.)
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2014-05-23T10:21:27Z shwouchk: clhs values
2014-05-23T10:21:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_values.htm
2014-05-23T10:24:03Z splittist: shwouchk: the reader constructs numbers and symbols. The evaluator then does things to those numbers and symbols. When evaluating a number, the number is returned. When evaluating a symbol it depends on where the symbol appears. Typing things at the rEpl inevitably involves the evaluator.
2014-05-23T10:24:16Z splittist: (imagine hands waving)
2014-05-23T10:24:18Z H4ns: shwouchk: the association between symbols and their lexical values is lost when a program is compiled.
2014-05-23T10:25:23Z H4ns: shwouchk: so, a implementing a function like symbol-value for lexical bindings would require that the compiler puts in extra tracking information so that it can return the lexical binding value of a symbol at run time.
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2014-05-23T10:25:48Z shwouchk: it is also weird (although I guess can be expected) that (setq x 1) (values (let ((x 42)) (setq x 2) x) x) evals to 1,42 whereas (setq x 1) (values (let ((x 42)) (set 'x 2) x) x) evals to 2,2
2014-05-23T10:25:57Z H4ns: shwouchk: as there is no real need for such a function, it is not specified in cl.
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2014-05-23T10:26:31Z H4ns: shwouchk: if "x" is not declared special, (setq x 2) does not have defined behavior.
2014-05-23T10:26:48Z shwouchk: yes, I understand... still weird
2014-05-23T10:27:17Z shwouchk: I guess what is weird in a sense is that there's undefined behavior. Oh, well
2014-05-23T10:27:51Z H4ns: like "char char*x = 123; puts(x);"
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2014-05-23T10:28:53Z shwouchk: H4ns: double char on purpose?
2014-05-23T10:28:58Z H4ns: no.
2014-05-23T10:29:05Z H4ns: you got the idea anyway :)
2014-05-23T10:29:09Z shwouchk: undefined because not 0 padded?
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2014-05-23T10:29:45Z nyef: Undefined because "lets coerce this random integer to a pointer and then dereference it"?
2014-05-23T10:29:46Z H4ns: undefined because the memory location 123 may contain anything.
2014-05-23T10:30:05Z shwouchk: ah, ah yes
2014-05-23T10:30:15Z shwouchk: I guess I got confused by the double char
2014-05-23T10:30:22Z shwouchk: yes yes
2014-05-23T10:30:24Z H4ns: i'm sorry.
2014-05-23T10:31:11Z shwouchk: H4ns: do you mean that when the code gets compiled, the lexical bindings "disappear"?
2014-05-23T10:31:23Z H4ns: shwouchk: when it comes to tracking values of lexical bindings, implementations usually _do_ have such a function for debugging purposes.
2014-05-23T10:31:56Z H4ns: shwouchk: no, the lexical bindings don't disappear, but the association between a symbol and a value cell is no longer present.
2014-05-23T10:32:21Z H4ns: i use "value cell" here as a generic term for some memory location where the variable's value is stored.
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2014-05-23T10:46:18Z shwouchk: H4ns: well, I meant of course the association to the symbol... Of course lexical bindings do not stop working when you compile the code
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2014-05-23T10:47:50Z shwouchk: do you know how such functions (for tracking lexical bindings) are usually called? e.g. in sbcl?
2014-05-23T10:48:02Z shwouchk: P.S.
2014-05-23T10:48:26Z shwouchk: I wonder whether the number of people in this channel is going up or down with time
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2014-05-23T10:52:09Z splittist: shwouchk: you can play around in the debugger with the lexical bindings.
2014-05-23T10:53:57Z shwouchk: splittist: explain?
2014-05-23T10:54:23Z splittist: http://sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Variable-Access
2014-05-23T10:56:49Z leo2007: H4ns: what is cdr2?
2014-05-23T10:57:13Z leo2007: s/cdr2/cadr2/
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2014-05-23T10:59:11Z H4ns: leo2007: it is a project that never really took off
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2014-05-23T11:00:05Z H4ns: leo2007: the only thing that came out of it so far is the xml version of the chinual
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2014-05-23T11:03:08Z shwouchk: splittist: thanks, got it
2014-05-23T11:04:28Z shwouchk: is the number of people who know/use lisp increasing or decreasing these days?
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2014-05-23T11:07:14Z p_l: stays stable, I guess
2014-05-23T11:08:02Z splittist: Increases. Almost everyone who ever learned lisp is still alive, and more people are learning it.
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2014-05-23T11:09:10Z p_l: splittist: well, I was thinking of the "use" part
2014-05-23T11:10:54Z splittist: p_l: I could make an argument about emacs use (:
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2014-05-23T11:12:04Z p_l: splittist: well, if we accept *all* lisps, then there's clojure as well, which is indeed growing
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2014-05-23T11:19:52Z pjb: shwouchk: to understand identifiers, you'd have to read the dragon book, I'd say.
2014-05-23T11:20:23Z pjb: shwouchk: then to understand symbols, you would have to write your own compiler in lisp, I'd say.
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2014-05-23T12:46:25Z dim: hi
2014-05-23T12:46:39Z dim: how to check which git hash is used in a quicklisp distribution?
2014-05-23T12:47:09Z dim: in my case, can I remove special dependencies towards qmynd in pgloader, which I can if latest Quicklisp release of qmynd is recent enough
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2014-05-23T13:07:22Z shwouchk: pjb: thanks for the tips :)
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2014-05-23T13:10:38Z shwouchk: pjb: although I'm not sure I want to get this deeply into compilers just yet
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2014-05-23T13:12:17Z antoszka: Guys, need to convert an U2 encoded signed decimal int into something human readable. I suppose NIBBLES is the library to use, but I'm lost in the multitude of functions.
2014-05-23T13:12:20Z antoszka: Any hints?
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2014-05-23T13:16:50Z H4ns: antoszka: where is that signed integer?
2014-05-23T13:17:17Z antoszka: In text form in a file.
2014-05-23T13:17:37Z shwouchk: isn't that already human readable?
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2014-05-23T13:18:00Z antoszka: Well, it is, but I want the raw binary representation as hex.
2014-05-23T13:18:18Z antoszka: Because it shouldn't be signed, it's a misrepresentation.
2014-05-23T13:18:35Z nyef: So 413 should be 34 31 33 ?
2014-05-23T13:18:40Z H4ns: antoszka: so you have four-digit hex numbers?
2014-05-23T13:18:41Z antoszka: I get -1073741724 where 0xc0000064 is expected.
2014-05-23T13:18:46Z antoszka: H4ns: ↑ like this.
2014-05-23T13:19:28Z nyef: ... (format nil "~8,'0X" (mask-field (byte 32 0) -1073741724))
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2014-05-23T13:20:14Z antoszka: nyef: Cool, thanks a millioni!
2014-05-23T13:20:15Z nyef: For more fanciness, "0x~(~8,'0X~)".
2014-05-23T13:20:20Z antoszka: Yeah :)
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2014-05-23T13:45:55Z leo2007: H4ns: chinual?
2014-05-23T13:46:18Z eudoxia: the lisp machine manual
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2014-05-23T13:47:56Z H4ns: leo2007: http://common-lisp.net/project/bknr/static/lmman/frontpage.html
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2014-05-23T13:51:09Z splittist: leo2007: The Pitmanual is also available: http://maclisp.info/pitmanual/index.html
2014-05-23T13:51:20Z iza1: will there be a lisp machine in fpga?
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2014-05-23T13:51:34Z dkcl: "Clozure CL should run on FreeBSD 6.x and 7.x." Is this true even now?
2014-05-23T13:51:52Z dkcl: The current version of FreeBSD is 10.0
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2014-05-23T13:52:24Z H4ns: iza1: it is hard to predict the future.
2014-05-23T13:53:05Z dkcl: If not, the documentation is rather old
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2014-05-23T13:57:39Z H4ns: iza1: there are two larger problems in resurrecting the original lispm design:  it needs to be converted to synchronous operation, and there must be enough microcode storage.  the microcode is too large for lower-end fpgas, but that is something that will just change over time.  converting the design to synchronous is entirely possible, but quite some work.  and in the end, what you'll end up with is probably slower than what you can do
2014-05-23T13:57:39Z H4ns: in an emulator.
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2014-05-23T14:21:10Z reb: H4ns: What's the synchronous issue?
2014-05-23T14:21:44Z H4ns: reb: it is not an issue, but a design principble.  the lisp machine uses asynchronous design, that is any signal can be used to clock a flip flop.
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2014-05-23T14:22:23Z H4ns: reb: in synchronous designs, only designated clock signals are used as clocks.  that is what you need to do in fpga's in order to achive analyzable designs.
2014-05-23T14:22:24Z reb: H4ns: I didn't realize that.
2014-05-23T14:23:14Z H4ns: it is possible to get away with asynchronous designs in fpga's if you're staying slow, but timing analysis will not be dependable.
2014-05-23T14:24:56Z reb: Was the lispm CPU design async in the way that people have recently been talking about async designs as better for power consumption, etc.
2014-05-23T14:25:06Z leo2007: H4ns: thanks
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2014-05-23T14:25:11Z p_l: reb: no, it was normal synchronous design
2014-05-23T14:25:23Z p_l: async designs that are also performant are hard
2014-05-23T14:25:59Z reb: ok, then this sync/async distinction is something specific to fpga design?
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2014-05-23T14:26:26Z p_l: reb: no. Synchronous designs work in sync with a clock source, async don't have the clock
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2014-05-23T14:27:06Z H4ns: well, lispms certainly have clocks, but edges of all sorts of signals are used to trigger flipflops nevertheless.
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2014-05-23T14:57:49Z Xach: mega1: did you do any talk about pax at els?
2014-05-23T14:58:08Z mega1: yes
2014-05-23T14:58:16Z Xach: was it recorded? i'm trying to find it...
2014-05-23T14:58:18Z Xach checks harder
2014-05-23T14:58:39Z mega1: but audience got a fair share of documentation systems already at that point
2014-05-23T14:59:21Z mega1: Xach: click on "programme"
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2014-05-23T14:59:29Z mega1: on the els website
2014-05-23T15:00:10Z mega1: I talked ~10 minutes about it
2014-05-23T15:00:19Z splittist: Xach: it was a talk about things including pax - part of the keynote
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2014-05-23T15:00:35Z mega1: but there was a long buildup leading to it
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2014-05-23T15:03:02Z Xach: oh, ok
2014-05-23T15:03:24Z Xach: I thought perhaps one was broken out
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2014-05-23T15:05:07Z mega1: no, but the documentation has a basically the same info in the "Background" section
2014-05-23T15:05:13Z splittist: it was the sweet, sweet cookie reward for sitting through the rest.
2014-05-23T15:05:25Z Xach: ha
2014-05-23T15:06:01Z JuanDaugherty: pax the kernel patch?
2014-05-23T15:06:38Z Xach: https://github.com/melisgl/mgl-pax
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2014-05-23T15:07:19Z JuanDaugherty: ah
2014-05-23T15:07:44Z mega1: If everyone used PAX, the one could build documentation for everything in quicklisp and get an automatically cross-linked set of html files.
2014-05-23T15:08:01Z mega1: *then
2014-05-23T15:08:02Z JuanDaugherty was moved a few minutes ago to google "burroughs lisp" and download a complete pdf of the b5700 compiler
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2014-05-23T15:09:48Z Xach: There are so many things that could be done if everyone did something
2014-05-23T15:09:56Z splittist: A bit of OCR, a bit of javascript, and you could probably /run/ the pdf...
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2014-05-23T15:10:24Z mega1: Well, it would work for the subset of all things that actually use pax ...
2014-05-23T15:10:55Z mega1: Don't you all want to be uniform?
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2014-05-23T15:12:38Z Xach: I want everyone else to be uniform
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2014-05-23T15:13:53Z mega1: We are all uniform in that regard.
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2014-05-23T15:31:58Z oleo: morning
2014-05-23T15:32:19Z gingerale: Hello again. I'm planning on getting a tablet finally. Is there a way to install CCL (or SBCL) and emacs on an Android tablet without root rights? I don't see why not but I've never used a tablet or a smartphone. :O
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2014-05-23T15:33:05Z gingerale: I'd rather not connect to a remote computer to do any work during bus/train rides because it might mean cursing at the wireless so much. :(
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2014-05-23T15:33:42Z JuanDaugherty: gingerale, if you consult the logs of this channel you'll find related talk
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2014-05-23T15:34:00Z gingerale: Ah, where would I find the logs then?
2014-05-23T15:34:38Z gingerale: Nevermind, found it on the wiki. Thanks. <3
2014-05-23T15:35:14Z JuanDaugherty: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ if that doesn't work
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2014-05-23T15:57:52Z jasom: Is there a standard fifo implementation for lisp?  neither vectors nor lisps make particularly good ones
2014-05-23T15:58:03Z jasom: s/lisps/lists
2014-05-23T15:59:35Z stassats`: lparallel queues?
2014-05-23T15:59:42Z jasom: I see jpl-queues cl-containers csp lparallel
2014-05-23T15:59:46Z fortitude: jasom: I think I used "queues" once
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2014-05-23T16:00:05Z stassats`: i don't use lparallel parallel things, only queues, works alright
2014-05-23T16:00:07Z Vivitron: jasom: I've seen it done more than one way, tconc might be the easiest if decent performance is good enough (hold a list and its tail, enqueue by setfing the tail and updating it to the new tail)
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2014-05-23T16:03:17Z jasom: I'd rather not pull in an entire concurrencly library, but I suppose I would have to if I want it to be thread safe in the future
2014-05-23T16:04:04Z Vivitron: jasom: I've used the "queues" library available in quicklisp and not been bitten by it; I didn't check whether they are concurrent
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2014-05-23T16:04:29Z jasom: Vivitron: interesting, that didn't show up when I searched cliki; let me see what url quicklisp gives for it
2014-05-23T16:04:49Z stassats`: i guess lparallel could be split into subsystems, so that you don't have to load everything
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2014-05-23T16:05:14Z jasom: stassats`: will lparallel queues work with any boardeaux-threads based parallelism?
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2014-05-23T16:05:26Z stassats`: yes
2014-05-23T16:05:28Z fortitude: Vivitron: queues.simple-queue uses an array and adjust-array
2014-05-23T16:05:34Z fortitude: er, jasom
2014-05-23T16:05:38Z fortitude: which you'd said you wanted to avoid
2014-05-23T16:06:11Z jasom: fortitude: for now I can use whatever, but in many other languages I would just use whatever queue is provided by the standard library (or in some cases the de-facto standard)
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2014-05-23T16:07:52Z jasom: Vivitron: I found the documentation for queues, and the -cqueue versions are thread-safe the -queue versions are not
2014-05-23T16:08:06Z jasom: so simple-cqueue is thread-safe and simple-queue is not
2014-05-23T16:08:25Z Vivitron: ah, convenient
2014-05-23T16:09:17Z stassats`: eye sea queue
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2014-05-23T16:10:05Z jasom: stassats`: lparallel queues are not what I want, since they are bounded-size blocking queues, and I need unbounded-size never-blocking queues in this case.
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2014-05-23T16:11:10Z Vivitron: I thought they were unbounded when you don't specify otherwise
2014-05-23T16:11:23Z _death: .. and there's try-pop-queue
2014-05-23T16:11:32Z jasom: Vivitron: oh, you are right
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2014-05-23T16:11:56Z jasom: the overview page made it sound otherwise, but the API docs are as you say.
2014-05-23T16:12:38Z _death: btw sb-concurrency also has lock-free queue implementation
2014-05-23T16:13:05Z _death: (but I really like lparallel)
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2014-05-23T16:13:39Z jasom: _death: I like lparallel too, but I'm not working on a parallel library, I just want to stuff a bunch of things in a structure, and then get them out in the same order later (and them maybe stuff some more in inbetween)
2014-05-23T16:13:57Z jasom: I expect the typical use case to be within the same thread.
2014-05-23T16:14:15Z stassats`: it's trivial to implement if you don't need concurrency
2014-05-23T16:14:27Z nyef: jasom: If you don't need thread-safety, why not abuse CONS cell mutation?
2014-05-23T16:14:55Z nyef: You know that trick for using a CONS cell as a header so that you can build a list in-order?
2014-05-23T16:15:20Z jasom: stassats`: so trivial that nobody's bothered to write a library for it?  I can implement a tconc list, but do people really do that every time they want to build a list in-order?
2014-05-23T16:15:46Z stassats`: people usually use LOOP
2014-05-23T16:15:49Z stassats`: or nreverse
2014-05-23T16:16:02Z jasom: stassats`: in this case, I'm not necessarilly building the whole list at once
2014-05-23T16:16:03Z _death: https://github.com/death/constantia/blob/master/misc.lisp#L265
2014-05-23T16:17:20Z prxq: jasom: I think so, yes, almost everybody has its own. cl-containers has a queue too, I think.
2014-05-23T16:17:47Z fortitude: as does lisp-interface-library
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2014-05-23T16:19:46Z Xach: this is the kind of thing I think quickutil was meant to help with
2014-05-23T16:21:32Z _death: there are tons of util libs.. isn't quickutil yet another one
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2014-05-23T16:23:01Z Xach: Nope.
2014-05-23T16:23:20Z Xach: My understanding is that it lets you get individual useful functions without getting 500 others.
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2014-05-23T16:24:21Z jasom: wow, quickutil has a lot of dependencies
2014-05-23T16:24:32Z Xach: heh
2014-05-23T16:24:36Z Xach: I have not tried it
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2014-05-23T16:24:42Z jasom: cl+ssl and drakma
2014-05-23T16:24:48Z jasom: which each pull in a lot
2014-05-23T16:25:18Z Xach: But those don't become part of your own dependency tree - they fetch lightweight things you then use
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2014-05-23T16:25:24Z Xach: (I think)
2014-05-23T16:25:40Z Xach: I suppose I should stop advocating for my ill-formed impression of what it is and learn about what it really is.
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2014-05-23T16:26:28Z jasom: ah, it can generate a "utils.lisp" file that has the utility source directly in it, though that's not the recommended way
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2014-05-23T16:27:04Z Xach: my take on the problem is: nobody writes and shares a library with just *one* utility function. and if they did, probably nobody would use it, because of the perceived effort threshold.
2014-05-23T16:27:50Z Xach: so people write a library with their favorite 100 utility functions, and people look on them and say "i don't need that, i'll just write my own single function," and then that one grows into another set of 100
2014-05-23T16:28:02Z Xach: but a different set
2014-05-23T16:28:15Z Xach: I have no idea if that's the same problem quickutil is approaching.
2014-05-23T16:28:39Z oGMo: Xach: or alternatively there is e.g. alexandria, but the (perceived?) effort of contributing or fixing is similarly high
2014-05-23T16:29:29Z jasom: Xach, oGMo the quickutil webpage indicates that it's partly what Xach says, combined with "While Alexandria contains on the order of 100 high quality, useful utilities, it suffers from a very slow-moving oligarchy."
2014-05-23T16:29:42Z oGMo: sounds interesting
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2014-05-23T16:30:12Z oGMo: it loads everything into its own package? sounds like trouble
2014-05-23T16:30:33Z jasom: oGMo: it creates a package qtl that you can load utiliites into
2014-05-23T16:30:53Z oGMo: jasom: what if i load something else that wants a different utility named the same thing?
2014-05-23T16:31:28Z jasom: oGMo: there is only one utility in the quickutil repository for each symbol name
2014-05-23T16:31:41Z oGMo: not good
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2014-05-23T16:33:01Z oGMo: e.g., iirc, alexandria's CLAMP or similar is or was broken at some point, and if I add my own to the mix... you _can_ integrate local stuff into this? .. i'd have to come up with a unique name
2014-05-23T16:33:03Z fortitude: oGMo: you can specify the package utilities get put into, apparently
2014-05-23T16:33:10Z oGMo: ah
2014-05-23T16:33:45Z jasom: ah, you can indeed
2014-05-23T16:33:53Z fortitude: but maybe only for the saved utils.lisp version?
2014-05-23T16:34:00Z oGMo: otoh, people put their utility stuff in QL and that doesn't seem to be a problem, so i'm not sure this ends up not just duplicating that effort
2014-05-23T16:34:04Z jasom: so you can have my-project.utilities:CLAMP and then not import the quickutil clamp
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2014-05-23T16:40:05Z Xach: oGMo: i push back a bit on that
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2014-05-23T16:41:04Z Xach: "It looks like you are adding a utility library. Would you like some help on how to use existing utility libraries? (Y/n)
2014-05-23T16:41:17Z oGMo: heh
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2014-05-23T16:44:46Z Fare has been trying to *remove* stuff from fare-utils, and rely on uiop and alexandria only, but that's not always possible.
2014-05-23T16:45:11Z jasom: Is it slightly ironic that I need to run "make" in order to load asdf with asdf?
2014-05-23T16:45:39Z Fare: quickutils looked like it didn't actually solve anything.
2014-05-23T16:46:00Z Fare: jasom: you don't — if you've already got a working asdf3, you don't need make
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2014-05-23T16:46:20Z Fare: make is only needed if you don't have asdf3.
2014-05-23T16:46:33Z jasom: Fare: I was on 3.1.0.106 and it complained that it couldn't find the truname of build/asdf.lisp
2014-05-23T16:46:49Z Fare: who complained where/when ?
2014-05-23T16:47:03Z jasom: (asdf:load-system :asdf)
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2014-05-23T16:47:19Z jasom: after reinitializing the source registry since I didn't have asdf there when I started
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2014-05-23T16:48:08Z Fare: jasom: was you initial asdf asdf2?
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2014-05-23T16:48:41Z jasom: hmm when I start sbcl with --norc I get 3.1.2.4
2014-05-23T16:48:41Z clint5: greetings!
2014-05-23T16:48:45Z Fare: btw, 3.1.2 has been released — no support is given on non-release items.
2014-05-23T16:48:59Z Fare: except on HEAD
2014-05-23T16:48:59Z jasom: anyway it's working just fine now
2014-05-23T16:49:52Z jasom: I'll have to track down the old git checkout and kill it
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2014-05-23T16:50:02Z Fare: asdf2 is known not to be able to bootstrap asdf3. I suppose that could be fixed, but it's some work for no real benefit.
2014-05-23T16:50:15Z Fare: or git update
2014-05-23T16:51:02Z clint5: I'd like to hear from you what's a good gui toolkit other than commonqt or cl-gtk2
2014-05-23T16:51:56Z _death: ltk works
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2014-05-23T16:53:28Z jasom: I use ltk fairly heavily.  I have a version with several bugfixes and enhancements that haven't made it upstream though.
2014-05-23T16:53:43Z jasom: which reminds me, I need to ping the mailing list again about that
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2014-05-23T16:54:48Z _death: may also make sense to have a web frontend.. I have some projects where the backend is CL and angularjs frontend communicates with it using plain get/post or websockets (clws on lisp side)
2014-05-23T16:55:33Z jasom: I've heard good things about commonqt, and the demo that ships with it runs without crashing (which is a first for me with anything other than ltk)
2014-05-23T16:56:19Z clint5: I'm looking for an easily portable toolkit, fast and good look & feel (in that order)
2014-05-23T16:56:57Z clint5: I've tried cl-gtk2, but for some reason, it runs slowly under sbcl on my machine.
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2014-05-23T16:57:08Z jasom: ltk hits all points
2014-05-23T16:57:20Z jasom: except "fast" in some situations
2014-05-23T16:57:33Z clint5: for example?
2014-05-23T16:58:17Z jasom: clint5: the biggest one is doing something like auto-sizing a treeview based on its contents; its a roundtrip to get the size of each element; I've considered writing a pure tcl solution for doing that in a single round-trip
2014-05-23T16:58:57Z jasom: clint5: also gui startup is painfully slow the first time in sbcl for something with a lot of widgets; this is due to sbcl trying to optimize clos stuff that only ends up being called once
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2014-05-23T16:59:34Z jasom: the good news is that if you load up your gui, then close it, and then save the lisp image it's way faster on sbcl than other implementations (beceause now you're calling it the scond time, the expensive optimizations pay off)
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2014-05-23T17:00:18Z jasom: but ccl clisp and ecl all run it at a reasonable speed the first time around
2014-05-23T17:01:20Z jasom: and I've delivered standalone applications to windows, os x and linux with it
2014-05-23T17:01:23Z stassats`: commonqt doesn't work on clisp and is too slow on ECL
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2014-05-23T17:03:02Z clint5: Do I need a (particular) tcl interpreter for ms windows?
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2014-05-23T17:03:27Z clint5: (in order to run ltk)
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2014-05-23T17:04:07Z jasom: clint5: for application delivery on windows, i include a tclkit in the same directory and invoke it explicitly
2014-05-23T17:04:30Z jasom: and the base tclkit that you can download works great, no need to build a custom one
2014-05-23T17:05:16Z clint5: right, but any implementation of preference?
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2014-05-23T17:05:50Z jasom: clint5: I think I just googled for "tclkit"
2014-05-23T17:06:25Z clint5: jaj right,
2014-05-23T17:06:39Z clint5: thank you so much for your time
2014-05-23T17:06:49Z clint5: always a pleasure
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2014-05-23T17:07:16Z jasom: no problem
2014-05-23T17:08:46Z splittist: I wonder how many people looking for a portable gui actually run gui applications on multiple platforms.
2014-05-23T17:09:33Z fortitude: splittist: I suspect it's mostly that making a non-portable gui portable is a lot harder than just starting with a portable one
2014-05-23T17:09:53Z fortitude: so if you think you might run on more than one platform at some point in the future, there's a bit less to worry about
2014-05-23T17:09:57Z jasom: The only gui application I've ever sent to my friends had to run on windows and mac, and I use linux so you can count me as one.
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2014-05-23T17:10:57Z rpg: splittist: Our company has people that mostly work on Macs, our compute servers are linux, and we often need to deliver on Windows.
2014-05-23T17:13:04Z fortitude: speaking of guis, has anybody here gotten Second Climacs to run?
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2014-05-23T17:13:21Z rpg: Portable UIs all seem to suck. I've used web browsers as the API, with CL JSON, but the sandbox can be a nuisance.
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2014-05-23T17:13:29Z rpg: s/API/UI/
2014-05-23T17:13:33Z fortitude: the version from github seems to be calling a function that doesn't exist, and doesn't have an obvious replacement
2014-05-23T17:14:23Z splittist: fortitude: doesn't C2 depend on clim3, which doesn't exist?
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2014-05-23T17:14:33Z rpg: You have to tolerate writing JavaScript (could be worse) and dealing with the DOM (probably couldn't be), though.
2014-05-23T17:14:41Z fortitude: splittist: it does, but CLIMatis (clim3) is also on github
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2014-05-23T17:15:11Z fortitude: I just thought I remember some people here playing with it at one point
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2014-05-23T17:20:19Z jasom: I've almost figure out how to create a queue with lil
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2014-05-23T17:26:07Z _death: rpg: then use e.g., angular and minimize dealing with the DOM.. also when you have to deal with it, d3 and such can be nice
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2014-05-23T17:28:50Z jasom: (create (make-instance '<simple-queue>) nil) appears to exhaust the control stack
2014-05-23T17:29:17Z stassats`: when printing?
2014-05-23T17:29:40Z jasom: aha, yes only when printing, thanks
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2014-05-23T17:29:55Z _death: clhs *print-circle*
2014-05-23T17:29:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_cir.htm
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2014-05-23T17:30:17Z jasom feels stupid now
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2014-05-23T17:31:48Z vince: Hi.  Is there a simple way to convert any lisp object to a byte array?
2014-05-23T17:32:09Z _death: cl-store is one
2014-05-23T17:32:45Z stassats`: (write-to-string object :readably t)
2014-05-23T17:32:50Z stassats`: not any
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2014-05-23T17:34:21Z vince: Is cl-store supposed to be more efficient than write-to-string?
2014-05-23T17:34:59Z stassats`: it's more complete
2014-05-23T17:35:21Z jasom: (write-to-string (make-hash-table))
2014-05-23T17:35:29Z vince: handles more objects?
2014-05-23T17:35:44Z stassats`: jasom: "#.(SB-IMPL::%STUFF-HASH-TABLE (MAKE-HASH-TABLE :TEST 'EQL :SIZE '16 :REHASH-SIZE '1.5 :REHASH-THRESHOLD '1.0 :WEAKNESS 'NIL) 'NIL)"
2014-05-23T17:35:53Z stassats`: vince: yes
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2014-05-23T17:35:58Z vince: ta
2014-05-23T17:36:15Z jasom: stassats`: "#<HASH-TABLE :TEST EQL size 0/60 #x302001F92D1D>"
2014-05-23T17:36:54Z stassats`: you forgot :readable t
2014-05-23T17:37:01Z stassats`: at least it will produce an error
2014-05-23T17:37:48Z jasom: > Error: Attempt to print object #<HASH-TABLE :TEST EQL size 0/60 #x30200131E27D> on stream #<STRING-OUTPUT-STREAM  #x30200131E21D> .
2014-05-23T17:37:55Z stassats`: there you go
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2014-05-23T17:42:36Z vince: If I use write-to-string, it looks like I have to use something like flexi-streams:string-to-octets on the output.  Is there a more direct solution?  Someone told me I could use princ with some options...
2014-05-23T17:42:57Z stassats`: what would you do with those octests?
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2014-05-23T17:43:39Z vince: I want to pass them to ironclad:update-digest
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2014-05-23T17:44:29Z stassats`: what about ironclad:ascii-string-to-byte-array?
2014-05-23T17:44:43Z stassats`: that, of course, assumes ASCII
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2014-05-23T17:45:25Z vince: that should come down to using something like flexi-streams:string-to-octets, right?
2014-05-23T17:45:38Z stassats`: "that" what?
2014-05-23T17:45:44Z fortitude: trivial-utf-8:string-to-utf-8-bytes will work with unicode
2014-05-23T17:45:49Z vince: calling ironclad:ascii-string-to-byte-array
2014-05-23T17:46:04Z stassats`: it doesn't use anything
2014-05-23T17:46:29Z _death: (flexi-streams:with-output-to-sequence (s) (cl-store:store 42 s))
2014-05-23T17:46:35Z jasom: If you're using write already, you might as well write into a binary sequence
2014-05-23T17:46:43Z stassats`: see also, babel:octets-to-string, sb-ext:octets-to-string
2014-05-23T17:47:04Z stassats`: jasom: write doesn't write into sequences, let alone binary
2014-05-23T17:47:35Z jasom: stassats`: flexi-streams provides gray streams that do
2014-05-23T17:48:06Z stassats`: if you want it to make slow, sure
2014-05-23T17:49:10Z vince: Thanks!  Any idea, what the fastest solution between all these solutions?
2014-05-23T17:49:18Z jasom: One more question for "has anyone else done this" is there a destructuring-bind that works like macro binding (the 2 differences is that there is no way to pass an environment object in, and the CAR of the list you are binding from should be ignored except for the case of &whole )
2014-05-23T17:50:54Z fortitude: jasom: ignoring the car of the list almost certainly isn't part of the binding itself (lambda arglists don't bind their car either)
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2014-05-23T17:51:40Z jasom: fortitude: but it's part of the binding since &whole works differently
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2014-05-23T17:52:08Z fortitude: hmm, hadn't thought of that
2014-05-23T17:52:09Z jasom: (destructuring-bind (&whole w &rest r) will end up with the same things in w and r
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2014-05-23T17:52:25Z stassats`: and in macros?
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2014-05-23T17:53:26Z stassats`: same thing
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2014-05-23T17:53:51Z jasom: stassats`: nope
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2014-05-23T17:54:15Z stassats`: ok
2014-05-23T17:54:21Z stassats`: but what do you need it for?
2014-05-23T17:54:46Z jasom: stassats`: I'm making something that is similar to a macro
2014-05-23T17:55:13Z jasom: it may need the environment; it probably doesn't need the &whole, but who knows
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2014-05-23T17:55:33Z stassats`: so, why not use macros?
2014-05-23T17:55:40Z jasom: because it's not a macro
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2014-05-23T17:56:15Z jasom: I could use macro functions if I knew a way to get a macro function for a lambda form without defining a macro
2014-05-23T17:56:16Z stassats`: can you pretend that it is?
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2014-05-23T17:57:31Z jasom: rather what I'm trying to say is that the only way I know to get a macro function is to defmacro which needs a symbol; I suppose I could defmacro to a gensym and then get the macro function from that
2014-05-23T17:57:44Z stassats`: (macrolet ((env (&environment env) env) (x (&whole w &rest r) (print w) (print r) nil)) (funcall (macro-function 'x (env)) '(x y z) nil))
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2014-05-23T17:58:01Z stassats`: or (macrolet ((env (&environment env) env) (x (&whole w &rest r) (print w) (print r) nil)) (funcall (macro-function 'x (env)) '(x y z) (env)))
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2014-05-23T17:58:23Z jasom: that may work
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2014-05-23T17:59:09Z jasom: I don't know that it's better than just handling &environment and &whole specially then passing it to destructuring bind
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2014-05-23T19:14:53Z jasom: stassats`: hmm there's no make-load-form for (macro-function)
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2014-05-23T19:16:00Z stassats`: it's a function
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2014-05-23T19:16:11Z jasom: so I can't use your suggestion in an eval-when that includes :load-toplevel
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2014-05-23T19:16:37Z jasom: oh, it's for the lexical environment
2014-05-23T19:16:40Z jasom: (env)
2014-05-23T19:17:16Z jasom:     There is no MAKE-LOAD-FORM function for bootstrap type SB-KERNEL:LEXENV.
2014-05-23T19:17:42Z stassats`: don't dump it then
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2014-05-23T19:43:01Z joe-w-bimedina: I've been using the Lisp function "or" to stand in for the C++ ||  when converting C++ code to lisp.  What in Lisp would stand in for just |
2014-05-23T19:43:39Z segv-: logior
2014-05-23T19:44:05Z stassats`: clhs logior
2014-05-23T19:44:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logand.htm
2014-05-23T19:44:25Z stassats`: see also, LDB, DPB, MASK-FIELD
2014-05-23T19:44:25Z joe-w-bimedina: Thank you very much:)
2014-05-23T19:46:16Z segv-: oh. mask-field's a nice one.
2014-05-23T19:46:22Z segv-: learn something new everyday.
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2014-05-23T21:57:11Z jasom: Is there a way to define a global that gets bound lexically?
2014-05-23T21:57:29Z stassats`: symbol macros
2014-05-23T21:57:31Z jasom: I could hack it in with symbol-macrolet I know
2014-05-23T21:57:40Z jasom: ah, that answers that question
2014-05-23T21:57:47Z stassats`: not with symbol-macrolet, with define-symbol-macro
2014-05-23T21:58:03Z jasom: oh, right
2014-05-23T21:58:14Z jasom: (let () bindings override define-symbol-macro
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2014-05-23T21:59:53Z nyef: Or there's some SBCL-specific noise, IIRC.
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2014-05-23T22:03:05Z Bike: sb-ext:defglobal i think
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2014-05-23T22:07:36Z nyef: Not even lexically?
2014-05-23T22:07:50Z nyef: Hrm.
2014-05-23T22:07:59Z stassats`: that would defeat its purpose
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2014-05-23T22:09:56Z nyef: Fair enough, I guess.
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2014-05-23T22:45:03Z iza1: is there any minimal linux dist that just boots to console with no virtual?
2014-05-23T22:45:10Z iza1: i want to make a lisp machine
2014-05-23T22:45:37Z iza1: all will be lisp
2014-05-23T22:45:47Z stassats`: what for?
2014-05-23T22:45:48Z iza1: exept web browser
2014-05-23T22:45:50Z Denommus: iza1: virtual for?
2014-05-23T22:45:54Z Denommus: *virtual what?
2014-05-23T22:46:03Z jasom: iza1: there are lots of linux dists like that
2014-05-23T22:46:13Z iza1: virtual ctrl alt f1 console
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2014-05-23T22:46:15Z jasom: including ones that boot off of a single floppy
2014-05-23T22:46:35Z iza1: to make lisp machine in case linux dies
2014-05-23T22:47:11Z Denommus: linux probably won't die, and a Lisp Machine isn't a proper replacer. Lisp machines assumed a single-user setup and all that, Linux is a multi-user operating system
2014-05-23T22:47:11Z stassats`: go find a better way to spend your time
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2014-05-23T22:47:27Z iza1: there can be multi user lisp
2014-05-23T22:47:52Z iza1: or why even have user? make user be part of each function call
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2014-05-23T22:48:13Z iza1: net work user, device user
2014-05-23T22:48:16Z jasom: iza1: ##linux is probably a better place to ask for minimal linux dists; I could probably name a dozen but no clue if any are still maintained
2014-05-23T22:48:36Z iza1: ok thank
2014-05-23T22:48:39Z iza1: good linux!
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2014-05-23T22:51:45Z Denommus: stassats`: jasom: does every new lisper dream about creating a Lisp-based OS or a Lisp Machine?
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2014-05-23T22:51:52Z p_l: probably
2014-05-23T22:52:04Z Denommus: I was one of those ._.
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2014-05-23T22:52:08Z jasom: almost certainly
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2014-05-23T22:52:50Z stassats`: i want a lisp based CPU!
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2014-05-23T22:54:48Z Denommus: I'm glad a great lisp based package manager exists
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2014-05-23T23:11:02Z dekpher: how can i pass a global var to a function?
2014-05-23T23:11:22Z stassats`: variables are not first class objects
2014-05-23T23:11:36Z jasom: dekpher: I don't understand your question
2014-05-23T23:11:58Z JuanDaugherty: if it's global ... .
2014-05-23T23:12:07Z jasom: stassats`: but symbols are, and all global vars have symbols for names, right?
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2014-05-23T23:12:48Z dekpher: i want to write the function generally but use the global in my test
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2014-05-23T23:13:33Z jasom: (defparameter *foo* 3) (+ *foo* 2) => 5
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2014-05-23T23:15:47Z dekpher: maybe its another reason why my thing isn't working
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2014-05-23T23:16:08Z jasom: dekpher: maybe give us an example of what you're trying to do on paste.lisp.org?
2014-05-23T23:16:09Z nyef: ... I missed a LispM/LispOS discussion? )-:
2014-05-23T23:16:29Z jasom: nyef: someone wanted a minimal linux kernel to make a pure-lisp userspace on top of
2014-05-23T23:16:49Z nyef: Yeah, I saw in the scrollback.
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2014-05-23T23:17:57Z jasom: I always wanted to make a linux distribution with a BSD userspace just so I can tell RMS I'm using linux and when he corrects me to GNU/Linux I can tell him he's wrong :)
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2014-05-23T23:18:34Z nyef: Heh.
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2014-05-23T23:19:50Z nyef: I'm suddenly reminded of Xach's Quicklisp talk at a boston lisp meeting.
2014-05-23T23:20:09Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2014-05-23T23:21:07Z Xach: where rms was polite and asked topical questions?
2014-05-23T23:21:16Z Xach: to me, anyway.
2014-05-23T23:21:41Z jasom: for the most part rms is that way, he just has certain buttons you don't want to push
2014-05-23T23:22:23Z nyef: That'd be the one.
2014-05-23T23:22:58Z nyef: Xach: While I have your attention, have you had a chance to test SBCL HEAD again recently?
2014-05-23T23:23:22Z Xach: nyef: not recently. i'm trying to get the next dist update out the door tomorrow, so my energy for testing bleeding-edge is low.
2014-05-23T23:23:34Z nyef: Fair enough.
2014-05-23T23:23:44Z stassats`: SBCL HEAD is soon to be sbcl release
2014-05-23T23:23:48Z Xach: I'll run through it again after I'm done with the dist update.
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2014-05-23T23:24:13Z Xach: There's a weird regression with genworks gendl. it looks asdf-related, but i don't really understand how it works now but doesn't work with sbcl head.
2014-05-23T23:24:29Z Xach: as in, it looks like it should be failing with 1.1.18, too but it doesn't.
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2014-05-23T23:25:39Z nyef: stassats`: Speaking of, you saved a boxed register on the number stack, and then restored it. That'll break if a GC occurs.
2014-05-23T23:26:07Z nyef: Can you save r12 (NARGS) rather than r3 (LEXENV) please?
2014-05-23T23:27:22Z stassats`: but that's for c-code only?
2014-05-23T23:27:47Z stassats`: both call_into_lisp and callback wrappers are called from C
2014-05-23T23:27:55Z nyef: Ah! My bad.
2014-05-23T23:28:06Z nyef: Thought that was Lisp-side, not C-side.
2014-05-23T23:28:42Z stassats`: callback wrappers can save less registers, but i need to add ldmfd/strmfd first
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2014-05-23T23:29:36Z nyef: Xach: So, I'm curious: What's involved in a test run, and how long does it take?
2014-05-23T23:32:02Z stassats`: i wonder if making callback functions support C ABI directly would make things faster, instead of going through an array
2014-05-23T23:32:57Z Xach: nyef: i update everything from its upstream source first, then build each system in each project one by one. takes about 7000 seconds.
2014-05-23T23:33:21Z nyef: So, about two hours?
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2014-05-23T23:33:32Z Xach: i don't think in hours any more.
2014-05-23T23:33:52Z nyef: And on what sort of machine?
2014-05-23T23:33:53Z Xach: oops...time for a movie. back in 5400.
2014-05-23T23:33:58Z nyef: Heh.
2014-05-23T23:34:15Z Xach: nyef: it's an older amd of some sort.
2014-05-23T23:34:17Z Xach checks cpuinfo
2014-05-23T23:34:28Z stassats`: i can try building current quicklisp
2014-05-23T23:34:32Z Xach: amd phenom II x4 965
2014-05-23T23:34:46Z nyef: So... with most of my hardware, I can expect a good few hours, but probably less than a day?
2014-05-23T23:34:51Z Xach: nyef: yeah.
2014-05-23T23:35:01Z stassats`: i think i can get it faster
2014-05-23T23:35:06Z Xach: This box was medium-hot stuff when it was new, but now a cheapo, low-power intel outpaces it easily.
2014-05-23T23:35:51Z nyef looks at his XServe G5, his SunFure V210, his HP 9000 rp3440, and his Origin 350.
2014-05-23T23:35:57Z Xach: I'm tempted to get a new, beastly box for builds, but the power consumption ain't free.
2014-05-23T23:36:31Z Xach: I suppose I could allocate a portion of my generous monthly donations to the electric bill, though.
2014-05-23T23:37:14Z stassats`: or get a solar panel
2014-05-23T23:37:24Z stassats`: Greenlisp
2014-05-23T23:37:25Z jasom: solar panels ain't free
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2014-05-23T23:50:58Z stassats`: gbbopen can't find some component
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2014-05-23T23:55:23Z dekpher: i expect my LISP AI should be finished building the power station on the dark side of the Moon shortly
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2014-05-23T23:56:29Z stassats`: gendl tarball 29 MB?
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2014-05-23T23:58:14Z jasom: Is there something like prog1 that preserves multiple-values?
2014-05-23T23:58:39Z jasom: doh multiple-value-prog1 (ask a silly question)
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2014-05-24T00:01:05Z _death: hmmm.. seems SBCL (like in the CLHS note & conditions PoC implementation) captures the symbol STREAM in WITH-SIMPLE-RESTART's expansion, in the report function
2014-05-24T00:03:19Z Bike: (with-simple-restart (abort "~a" stream) (error "")), very nice
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2014-05-24T00:06:12Z stassats`: it has been that way for decades
2014-05-24T00:07:31Z stassats`: and will have to wait until the next release
2014-05-24T00:07:49Z _death: ;)
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2014-05-24T01:20:35Z nyef: LET doesn't preserve top-levelness, does it?
2014-05-24T01:22:36Z oGMo: no
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2014-05-24T02:30:12Z leo2007: is it safe to mutate &rest in defmacro?
2014-05-24T02:30:31Z leo2007: I mean without side-effect outside the defmacro
2014-05-24T02:30:38Z nyef: No.
2014-05-24T02:31:58Z leo2007: do you have an example where this could have unwanted side-effect?
2014-05-24T02:34:03Z nyef: Anywhere that doesn't cons up fresh REST lists, for starters.
2014-05-24T02:34:14Z nyef: That's an implementation dependency right there.
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2014-05-24T02:35:39Z leo2007: nyef: thanks
2014-05-24T02:36:50Z nyef: For a somewhat more esoteric example, consider having a structured code editor, as in Interlisp, a version of DESTRUCTURING-BIND that doesn't spread the tail of the arglist, and using MACROEXPAND to see what part of your source does.
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2014-05-24T02:37:34Z nyef: And, now that I'm thinking about it, a macro possibly WOULDN'T spread its arglist by default. It really does depend on the system.
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2014-05-24T02:44:39Z leo2007: spread?
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2014-05-24T02:46:15Z nyef: In the context of an argument list, to place on the stack, element by element, rather than passing a pointer to the head of the list.
2014-05-24T02:46:33Z nyef: Just the elements, not the full cons cells.
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2014-05-24T03:14:54Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-05-24T03:30:50Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2014-05-24T03:40:23Z beach: I would appreciate feedback on this document: http://metamodular.com/cleavir.pdf
2014-05-24T03:41:30Z beach: It is supposed to be an implementation-independent framework for creating Common Lisp compilers.
2014-05-24T03:42:26Z beach: At this point, I don't think I am ready for detailed remarks; only general ones to see whether I am on the right track.
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2014-05-24T03:47:04Z nyef: ... typeq-ast?
2014-05-24T03:47:35Z beach: Yeah, it captures THE, type declarations, and typep with constant type argument.
2014-05-24T03:47:49Z nyef: Mentioned at the top of page 4, but not in the TOC?
2014-05-24T03:48:11Z beach: Hold on...
2014-05-24T03:48:58Z beach: Yes.  Missing.  Thanks.
2014-05-24T03:50:41Z nyef: Are you not representing error cases, such as reference to an undefined variable?
2014-05-24T03:51:14Z nyef: Or do you, as 2.3.3 special-ast appears to claim, handle that specific case by implicitly treating an undefined variable reference as being special?
2014-05-24T03:51:55Z beach: The error should be captured by the phase that translates from source to AST.
2014-05-24T03:52:09Z beach: Once it is in AST, it is treated as special.
2014-05-24T03:52:24Z beach: And if it is unbound, there an error is signaled of course.
2014-05-24T03:52:34Z nyef: A block only has a single AST for its body?
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2014-05-24T03:52:48Z beach: Yeah.
2014-05-24T03:52:57Z beach: But it could be a PROGN-AST.
2014-05-24T03:53:01Z nyef: So the implicit PROGN is rendered explicit there?
2014-05-24T03:53:05Z beach: Yes.
2014-05-24T03:53:24Z nyef: Why are the initarg and reader plural, then?
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2014-05-24T03:54:20Z beach: That's probably a mistake.
2014-05-24T03:54:22Z beach: Thanks.
2014-05-24T03:55:17Z nyef: No table in 2.2.10, load-time-value-ast.
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2014-05-24T03:55:50Z beach: Yes, not done yet.
2014-05-24T03:57:15Z nyef: Something feels off about go-ast / tagbody-ast / tag-ast, but that might be largely my current frustrations with SBCL.
2014-05-24T03:57:57Z jsnell: what are you planning for unwind-protect?
2014-05-24T03:58:09Z nyef: There doesn't seem to be enough hyphens in fixnum--ast.
2014-05-24T03:58:40Z beach: nyef: I gave some thought to tagbody etc.
2014-05-24T03:59:02Z beach: nyef: That's a TeX problem.  I'll rename it to fixnum-add/sub.
2014-05-24T03:59:12Z nyef: And I think that you might be better off having these be more annotations on a call-ast.
2014-05-24T03:59:13Z beach: The MIR instructions are more up to date in that respect.
2014-05-24T03:59:42Z nyef: Again, though, that might be my sbcl-heavy background speaking.
2014-05-24T03:59:51Z beach: jsnell: I remember giving it some thought, but I can't remember the result of my thinking right now.
2014-05-24T04:00:01Z beach: Probably too early in the morning for that :)
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2014-05-24T04:00:35Z beach: nyef: Having what be annotations?
2014-05-24T04:00:53Z nyef: The fixnum-specific operations.
2014-05-24T04:01:20Z beach: nyef: That might be your sbcl-heavy background speaking! :)
2014-05-24T04:01:33Z nyef: That IS what I said, yes.
2014-05-24T04:01:45Z beach: I know.  I quoted.
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2014-05-24T04:02:36Z nyef: ... I'm too fried right now to be able to read chapters 3 or 4, I'm afraid.
2014-05-24T04:02:49Z beach: No rush.
2014-05-24T04:02:49Z nyef: Looking forward to reading it tomorrow, though.
2014-05-24T04:02:52Z beach:  This is great!  I already have a fairly long list of issues to consider.  That will keep me busy for a while.
2014-05-24T04:03:21Z beach: Thanks nyef and jsnell.
2014-05-24T04:04:45Z jsnell: one more general question I'd have is what it means in the first place for it to be implementation independent
2014-05-24T04:05:44Z beach: jsnell: It means that there will be a general framework for things that pretty much every implementation needs, plus ways of adding new MIR instructions and ASTs for implementation-specific stuff.
2014-05-24T04:05:44Z jsnell: which I guess chapter 1 would address
2014-05-24T04:05:52Z beach: I suppose so, yes.
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2014-05-24T04:15:55Z beach puts his nose to the grindstone.
2014-05-24T04:15:57Z jsnell: beach: limiting sbind-instruction to constant symbols means it can't be used for implementing progv, so you'd most likely need to add another primitive for that
2014-05-24T04:16:34Z beach: jsnell: Good point.  Thanks.
2014-05-24T04:16:56Z jsnell: beach: a general problem that the interfaces have is that there appears to be no backlink from the instructions to the AST (and a backlink from the AST to source would have to be done by the API user)
2014-05-24T04:17:10Z jsnell: those would be required by anyone who needs debugging support
2014-05-24T04:17:18Z jsnell: maybe that's out of scope
2014-05-24T04:17:35Z beach: No, not out of scope.  Just haven't figured out the details yet.
2014-05-24T04:18:07Z jsnell: fair enough :-)
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2014-05-24T04:18:29Z beach: What I will probably do is provide some general accessor like SOURCE so that implementations can fill it with whatever they like.
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2014-05-24T04:18:53Z beach: I imagine such information will be highly implementation dependent.
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2014-05-24T04:20:44Z jsnell: yes, but debugging is also a rather cross cutting concern
2014-05-24T04:20:53Z beach: True.
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2014-05-24T04:21:23Z beach: It is a delicate balance.  Provide as much as possible without imposing a particular point of view.
2014-05-24T04:22:47Z beach vanishes for a while, but he will read scrollbacks when he comes back.
2014-05-24T04:23:16Z killmaster: no he wont
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2014-05-24T05:48:33Z stassats`: Xach: cl-curlex is now working again
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2014-05-24T06:30:17Z H4ns: mabragor's github is quite interesting
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2014-05-24T06:54:59Z beach: Indeed.
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2014-05-24T07:01:49Z beach: moore33: Back to the old nick, I see.
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2014-05-24T07:21:46Z pjb: minion: memo for Denomus: lisp machines were multi-user systems!  Go learn some history!
2014-05-24T07:21:46Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Denomus when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-05-24T07:22:21Z pjb: fuck, multi-tasking was invented by John McCarthy!
2014-05-24T07:23:24Z rszeno actualy mainframes, user sharing time, :)
2014-05-24T07:23:43Z pjb: Yes, that's what I wanted to say.  Thanks.
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2014-05-24T07:27:38Z rszeno: pjb, also the concept of multithreading is relevant in multitasking context when multiple cpu exists ( i think was inventated in the same context )
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2014-05-24T07:33:38Z beach: pjb: LispOS update: I have been experimenting with the new version of QEMU which seems quite good as far as I can tell.  If I understand correctly, it uses native code, so it can be almost as fast as a native application.  Currently, I am reading up on details such as boot sector, page tables, etc.
2014-05-24T07:34:55Z beach: pjb: I am also working on Cleavir, the SICL-derived framework for CL compilers.  The SICL compiler is the only big remaining chunk of code to be finished before SICL can become the basis of LispOS experiments.
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2014-05-24T07:36:49Z p_l: beach: I'd honestly drop things like bootsector etc. and concentrate on getting enough for UEFI and GRUB2, which would cover 99% of PC cases
2014-05-24T07:37:22Z rszeno: and openbios?
2014-05-24T07:37:23Z beach: p_l: I am just amusing myself actually.
2014-05-24T07:37:56Z p_l: rszeno: if you mean OpenFirmware, yes, but that would require SPARC or POWER target ;)
2014-05-24T07:38:10Z heddwch: or OLPC
2014-05-24T07:38:24Z p_l: heddwch: ah right, OLPC also had OpenFirmware
2014-05-24T07:38:50Z heddwch: :) Not that it's remotely relevant XD
2014-05-24T07:38:59Z p_l: beach: yeah, but why deal with annoying remnants of Cassette BASIC
2014-05-24T07:39:05Z rszeno: yes, but actualy the bios part is important, http://www.openfirmware.info/Welcome_to_OpenBIOS
2014-05-24T07:39:19Z p_l: n.b. I'm pretty sure we can port SBCL to run on top of just UEFI ;)
2014-05-24T07:39:59Z p_l: (CCL could be done if limited to single-threaded mode)
2014-05-24T07:40:17Z beach: p_l: I just need to understand what is going on.  Besides, it is fun, not annoying.
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2014-05-24T07:40:58Z p_l: well, some of the beginning stuff might be. I found UEFI more fun than dealing hodge-podge of undead code :)
2014-05-24T07:41:28Z heddwch: Zombie code, DOS32.. not sure there's a good option there
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2014-05-24T07:41:49Z beach: p_l: The problem (for me) is that finding documentation about what problem GRUB2 and UEFI etc solves is very hard and requires understanding of the full process to fully comprehend.
2014-05-24T07:42:13Z p_l: beach: well, GRUB is plain old bootloader
2014-05-24T07:42:53Z p_l: UEFI is platform firmware and provides services like initial memory map (so you won't try to GC your interrupt controller, for example)
2014-05-24T07:42:59Z beach: p_l: I don't know what problem a "bootloader" solves.  That's why I need to understand.
2014-05-24T07:43:05Z p_l: and general boot and basic i/o
2014-05-24T07:43:30Z p_l: beach: original bootloader was just what the name says - it loaded code from storage on boot
2014-05-24T07:43:57Z p_l: mainframe terminology is IMHO more useful to describe it (and also shows up in embedded)
2014-05-24T07:44:02Z beach: p_l: The BIOS already does that, which I why don't understand what additional problem a bootloader solves.
2014-05-24T07:44:10Z p_l: namely, Initial Program Load, Secondary Program Load, etc.
2014-05-24T07:44:13Z p_l: beach: BIOS doesn't do that
2014-05-24T07:44:38Z heddwch: The BIOS loads 512 bytes.
2014-05-24T07:44:48Z beach: p_l: Sure it does.  The boot sector is executable code which the BIOS loads.
2014-05-24T07:44:59Z heddwch: If that's your entire boot process, and you've done something more than tetris, I applaud you.
2014-05-24T07:45:06Z p_l: beach: BIOS only loads first sector if it's capable of understanding the device it is on (which means non-512b drives are fucked) and runs from offset 0
2014-05-24T07:45:07Z rszeno: beach, bios only load what it need to drive hardware then pass control to the bootloader which load the os part
2014-05-24T07:45:13Z beach: I am trying to convey that I don't fully understand this.
2014-05-24T07:45:30Z p_l: beach: and we are falling over ourselves to try to convey what it does :)
2014-05-24T07:45:55Z heddwch: beach: Basically, 512 bytes isn't enough to do anything meaningful, so you have to write a 512 byte loader that loads other things. Which blows.
2014-05-24T07:45:59Z beach: I don't think I can understand this by a few lines of IRC talk.  I need to read and experiment.
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2014-05-24T07:47:07Z beach: p_l: Thanks for pointing out UEFI though.  I'll add it to my list of things to understand.
2014-05-24T07:47:22Z p_l: anyway, the most important feature of things like UEFI, OpenFirmware, and several add-ons on top of BIOS (which ultimately gave birth to UEFI) is that you can have reliable "standard interface" to deal with the computer
2014-05-24T07:47:41Z p_l: they can describe to you various differences that you'd otherwise have to hardcode into system
2014-05-24T07:47:41Z beach: That sounds great.
2014-05-24T07:48:16Z p_l: for example, memory map - so you know what ranges of memory are physical memory, and what is reserved by I/O space for example
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2014-05-24T07:48:29Z heddwch: BIOS does that..
2014-05-24T07:48:47Z p_l: heddwch: any firmware has to do that, or you hardcode the ranges
2014-05-24T07:49:15Z heddwch: Right, but BIOS does that, so it's not a new thing for UEFI to have solved it
2014-05-24T07:50:05Z p_l: heddwch: UEFI did many other things, yes. That's why I mentioned BIOS in the list (though iirc e820 memory map *is* an addon that came later, original BIOS didn't have such concept)
2014-05-24T07:50:29Z heddwch: Ah, sorry, I misunderstood add-ons. Sorry for derailing
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2014-05-24T07:51:25Z p_l: beach: I definitely wish you fun in your experiments, though :)
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2014-05-24T07:51:34Z pjb: beach: there's  a comprehensive wiki about writing a kernel, with a lot of resources explaining boot loaders and this kind of stuff http://wiki.osdev.org/Main_Page
2014-05-24T07:51:46Z p_l is looking forward to playing in the guts of firmware recently
2014-05-24T07:51:57Z heddwch: also a channel here on freenode
2014-05-24T07:52:00Z heddwch: #osdev
2014-05-24T07:52:15Z pjb: beach: cf. http://wiki.osdev.org/Boot_Sequence
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2014-05-24T07:54:14Z rszeno: or more general, just in case, :) http://www.cs.utah.edu/flux/oskit/
2014-05-24T07:55:01Z p_l: rszeno: did they incorporate patches to build with GCC newer than 2.95?
2014-05-24T07:55:17Z rszeno: i don't thing
2014-05-24T07:55:31Z rszeno: probably is not updated from 2002
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2014-05-24T07:56:21Z p_l: I know that some people had updated versions
2014-05-24T07:56:25Z rszeno: but is good to understand the os world
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2014-05-24T07:57:43Z rszeno: hardware become cheap and big vendors kind of closed it, mobile, gpu, etc..
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2014-05-24T08:00:42Z p_l: in many ways the hw is more open now than some of it was, IMO
2014-05-24T08:01:50Z p_l: "platform" hw is still quite open. When it comes to mobile... heheheheheh
2014-05-24T08:01:59Z p_l: let's just say that it isn't closed due to some conspiracy ;)
2014-05-24T08:02:33Z p_l: (ok, maybe verizon with their obsession about locks)
2014-05-24T08:02:47Z rszeno: sure, there is not a conspiracy, are interests, :)
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2014-05-24T08:03:38Z p_l: rszeno: no, it's just that the hw is not open because even to the vendor those are one off unique snowflakes, to be forgotten with next model
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2014-05-24T08:05:05Z rszeno: once a chip is outside must be documented but why is not always this way?
2014-05-24T08:05:08Z p_l: so usually each device has hacky half done setup in the form of hardcoded values somewhere in os drivers
2014-05-24T08:05:18Z p_l: rszeno: because a chip != it's configuration
2014-05-24T08:05:44Z p_l: one phone variant will have power button on GPIO 5, another will have I2S input on that pin
2014-05-24T08:06:07Z p_l: and on yet another playing with GPIO will cause the batter to explode ;)
2014-05-24T08:06:12Z heddwch: Also NDA @ video
2014-05-24T08:06:14Z p_l: *that GPIO
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2014-05-24T08:07:04Z p_l: as for GPU drivers... there's often a lot of "secret sauce" in the drivers, and that's assuming that there's no quagmire of intersecting licenses that stop the vendor from opening it up
2014-05-24T08:07:23Z heddwch: evil vs evil = demon
2014-05-24T08:07:48Z beach: pjb: Yes, I know about osdev.  Thanks.
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2014-05-24T08:08:04Z beach: pjb: It is comprehensive, but very scattered.
2014-05-24T08:08:16Z rszeno khronos group is a good example about what i'm talking
2014-05-24T08:08:16Z bjorkintosh: there's no 'giggity' of intersecting licenses :D
2014-05-24T08:09:10Z heddwch: beach: The people are more valuable sources of information than the wiki. The forum and the channel are more helpful than trying entirely to piece it together yourself.
2014-05-24T08:09:29Z p_l: rszeno: Khronos group deals with software APIs
2014-05-24T08:09:36Z heddwch: If you don't want to involve anyone, reading kernel source (I recommend NetBSD) is your second most useful resource.
2014-05-24T08:10:10Z rszeno: p_I, not only, :)
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2014-05-24T08:10:30Z beach: heddwch: Thanks.  I am reading source as well as multiple instances of documentation.
2014-05-24T08:10:49Z p_l: rszeno: hmm? Show me where they mandate anything on the level that helps writing lower-level driver, I don't recall anything :)
2014-05-24T08:11:24Z heddwch: beach: np :) I do highly recommend #osdev. We mostly only make fun of people that refer to themselves as kitties or fail to google what the 'milli-' prefix means, so you're probably pretty safe.
2014-05-24T08:11:49Z beach: heddwch: Heh!  Yes, it would seem that way.
2014-05-24T08:12:21Z p_l: heddwch: ... kitties?
2014-05-24T08:12:35Z beach: heddwch: I will definitely go to #osdev when I run into difficulties.  At the moment, I would only be able to come up with one question: "How does everything work?" :)
2014-05-24T08:12:48Z p_l: beach: rarely anyone knows anymore?
2014-05-24T08:13:24Z beach: For instance, it took me a while to understand why the NASM directive ORG did not seem to have any effect.  Turns out the NASM listing is not accurate.
2014-05-24T08:13:40Z heddwch: p_l: I.. I don't know.. There's a person in there who refers to herself as a kitty, and does crap like say "s/pony/kitty/" after someone says "one trick pony". Oddly, I'm actually the only one who bothers her.
2014-05-24T08:13:51Z p_l: heh
2014-05-24T08:14:44Z heddwch: beach: Ah, generally, org affects the addresses generated by symbol references. What was inaccurate?
2014-05-24T08:15:07Z beach: heddwch: When I stuck it in, the listing turned out to be the same.
2014-05-24T08:15:17Z beach: I had to do od -x to see the difference.
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2014-05-24T08:16:02Z heddwch: Ah, I guess I'm not understanding what you mean by listing
2014-05-24T08:16:28Z beach: ... so the NASM list output does not take ORG into account it appears.
2014-05-24T08:16:32Z beach: nasm -l
2014-05-24T08:17:10Z rszeno: beach, i'm not sure if gas is better then nasm but is relevant to try few
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2014-05-24T08:17:28Z beach: rszeno: From what i have read, gas is definitely NOT better than NASM.
2014-05-24T08:18:44Z rszeno: all are specific, probably is hard to define better, as most general? :)
2014-05-24T08:18:45Z beach: Anyway, I have a large number of small issues like that.  Not very big ones, but together, they take time.
2014-05-24T08:19:07Z beach: rszeno: Sure.
2014-05-24T08:19:51Z rszeno: beach, is good to collect such details and publish
2014-05-24T08:20:15Z heddwch: gas meets my needs, but nasm is an objectively better assembler for x86
2014-05-24T08:20:20Z beach: rszeno: It was already published.  I considered making an n:th thing, but decided against it.
2014-05-24T08:21:20Z beach: p_l: Not to flog a dead horse, but it seemed to me that you could tell the BIOS to load sectors from disk, so I could not understand what GRUB was doing, but then I understood that GRUB understands about file systems and ELF and such, not of which is relevant to the system I am building.
2014-05-24T08:21:51Z p_l: beach: GRUB also has the logic to talk to BIOS to load things, and loads the kernel
2014-05-24T08:21:58Z beach: I suppose I could make a web site specifically dedicated to LispOS development for PCs.
2014-05-24T08:22:04Z p_l: the kernel drops BIOS after that
2014-05-24T08:22:19Z beach: p_l: My system won't have a "kernel".
2014-05-24T08:22:28Z heddwch: beach: That's basically it, other than the lovely arcane rituals needed to move things above 1MB (BIOS is real-mode, 20-bit addressing) then hop to protected mode, all of which GRUB just makes work.
2014-05-24T08:22:56Z heddwch: There's no 'problem' that GRUB solves that couldn't be solved otherwise, it's just a massive deduplication of effort, which is generally considered good.
2014-05-24T08:22:58Z p_l: beach: whatever forms the core of the OS
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2014-05-24T08:23:42Z beach: p_l: It will probably be the first few disk sectors, containing the paging code.
2014-05-24T08:23:50Z beach is guessing.
2014-05-24T08:23:56Z p_l: paging?
2014-05-24T08:24:05Z p_l: Sounds like much more than first few sectors
2014-05-24T08:24:19Z beach: Sure, may be the first 100.
2014-05-24T08:24:22Z beach: I don't know.
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2014-05-24T08:25:41Z p_l: on my system, there's no GRUB or any special bootloader, because my Linux kernel is compiled to operate as UEFI application and the only other bit is another application that does a nice graphical menu (the firmware in the flash rom reads files from FAT32 partitions easily, which makes things much easier :))
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2014-05-24T08:26:47Z heddwch: Yea, UEFI interface is nice. I dislike that they forced PE and FAT32 upon the world when openfirmware existed far earlier, but NIH and all that.
2014-05-24T08:26:47Z beach: A menu is probably useful.
2014-05-24T08:27:08Z p_l: heddwch: FAT32 is there because everyone and their undead pet hamster can read it
2014-05-24T08:27:28Z p_l: (while open firmware lacked a standardized format for such a place)
2014-05-24T08:27:45Z heddwch: It's there because MS, and you know it =p
2014-05-24T08:28:00Z heddwch: (open firmware standardized FAT16. Not great, I know, but still)
2014-05-24T08:28:16Z beach: p_l: What implementation of UEFI are you using?
2014-05-24T08:28:19Z p_l: heddwch: no, the MS part is that there's a system partition (which MS promoted back in ARC times
2014-05-24T08:28:43Z heddwch: =p
2014-05-24T08:29:01Z p_l: beach: My laptop came with UEFI firmware, UEFI2.3 compliant based on code from Phoenix (which is based on code from intel)
2014-05-24T08:29:04Z heddwch notes that Microsoft was in on OpenFirmware, too. It just wasn't /entirely/ Microsoft, so now we have UEFI
2014-05-24T08:29:15Z p_l: heddwch: and UEFI was Intel, not MS
2014-05-24T08:29:38Z beach: p_l: I see.
2014-05-24T08:29:49Z heddwch: Totally separate entities that have no funding relationships whatsoever, yes
2014-05-24T08:29:58Z beach vanishes, because the lunch guests will be arriving soon.
2014-05-24T08:30:19Z p_l: heddwch: MS was for a long time minority user of UEFI, major ones were Linux, HP-UX, VMS, NonStop (probably)
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2014-05-24T08:31:20Z heddwch: Ehh
2014-05-24T08:31:33Z p_l: PE... I guess it might be more related to the fact that original EFI developement (as well as majority of other devkits for BIOSes) were windows-bound
2014-05-24T08:31:46Z heddwch: I'll take your word for it for now because it's been a few years since I really looked into it, so you're probably right
2014-05-24T08:32:04Z p_l: heddwch: NT on ia64 never really went far, afaik
2014-05-24T08:32:15Z heddwch: That'd be because ia64 never really went far ;)
2014-05-24T08:32:17Z njsg: and UEFI was strongly influenced by microsoft
2014-05-24T08:32:30Z heddwch: Same as every other windows port, lots of enthusiasm, zOMG winamp no workie
2014-05-24T08:32:43Z njsg: isn't the filesystem in the specification for the boot partition a microsoft-owned proprietary filesystem?
2014-05-24T08:33:14Z p_l: njsg: FAT32 is hardly a proprietary filesystem anymore, and it was "forked" into separate docs included as part of EFI spec
2014-05-24T08:33:39Z heddwch: p_l: It's still covered by patents that Microsoft /has/ prosecuted with.
2014-05-24T08:33:43Z p_l: everyone and their zombie pet hamster got a FAT32 driver
2014-05-24T08:34:03Z heddwch: litigated*
2014-05-24T08:34:09Z heddwch: Thankfully MS can't prosecute
2014-05-24T08:35:35Z njsg: p_l: I think the filesystem they require is exFAT
2014-05-24T08:35:36Z p_l: well, that patent expired anyway :P
2014-05-24T08:35:38Z p_l: njsg: nope
2014-05-24T08:35:43Z p_l: exfat is not part of spec
2014-05-24T08:36:08Z p_l: you can add it, but if you want the firmware to be compliant with spec it has to support FAT32
2014-05-24T08:36:16Z heddwch: Are you sure? I know vfat did
2014-05-24T08:36:19Z njsg: also, proprietary is not just "closed", it can also be "patent-encumbered", which is definitely still the case with plain FAT
2014-05-24T08:36:32Z p_l: njsg: VFAT patents expired last year
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2014-05-24T08:36:46Z njsg: for real? no chance of them getting new patents?
2014-05-24T08:37:08Z p_l: njsg: you can't patent the same thing twice
2014-05-24T08:37:13Z heddwch: VFAT ≠ FAT32 is what I'm pointing out.
2014-05-24T08:37:24Z heddwch: VFAT is FAT16 with long filenames.
2014-05-24T08:37:25Z p_l: heddwch: the patents covered the V bit
2014-05-24T08:37:43Z p_l: i.e. LFN and shortening scheme
2014-05-24T08:37:53Z heddwch: Right, that's VFAT
2014-05-24T08:38:16Z p_l: and that's what MS had a patent on that actually could be used in litigation
2014-05-24T08:38:30Z heddwch: The shortening was incorporated with the FAT32 drivers, yes, but they were also patented separately, iirc, see: TomTom or BobBob or whatever GPS fuckery
2014-05-24T08:39:52Z njsg: p_l: well, the USPTO, which is where MSFT gets more of their patents, I think, is not exactly known for following these rules
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2014-05-24T08:40:13Z heddwch: njsg: Nor their competency in anything postdating the Bell leased line system
2014-05-24T08:40:15Z p_l: anyway, the patent is dead, and there's this fun bit that patents aren't necessarily valid outside of their origination country
2014-05-24T08:40:29Z njsg: microsoft had a patent in vfat that actually had prior art from cp/m, right?
2014-05-24T08:40:49Z heddwch: I don't see a lot of successful products that don't try to market to the US outside Japanese domestic companies
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2014-05-24T08:41:24Z heddwch: USPTO doesn't give two fucks about prior art. They don't pay attention, and if they've already approved it, The Gods Have Spoken
2014-05-24T08:41:31Z njsg: I find it interesting that the US had a whole different product for the Famicom, it's almost like they tried to segment it that way, US and non-US
2014-05-24T08:41:57Z njsg: I still need to adjust my mind every time I look at a NES, because, for me, it's Famicom
2014-05-24T08:42:13Z p_l: anyway, given that the FAT driver in afaik all EFI implementation is written by intel, I suspect the license was covered ;)
2014-05-24T08:42:25Z heddwch: njsg: Video game crash didn't happen in Japan, the NES was designed to look like a VCR so nobody would think, "Oh god Atari 2600 ET games"
2014-05-24T08:43:16Z njsg: p_l: code in standards does not mean the code is necessarily patent-free or public-domain. doesn't the MPEG standard have some example code that can be problematic if used for commercial or production purposes?
2014-05-24T08:43:24Z heddwch: p_l: Microsoft collaborates in a firmware specification, inserts their patented filesystem as the standard, doesn't sue firmware providers, doesn't promise not to sue competitors attempting to support said firmware.
2014-05-24T08:43:29Z heddwch: Surprising? Not really, no
2014-05-24T08:43:43Z p_l: njsg: MPEG is actually a licensing body as well
2014-05-24T08:44:16Z p_l: njsg: and afaik "licensing body" takes precedence over "standards", as they are not a national standards issuer or anything ;)
2014-05-24T08:44:33Z heddwch: On the other hand, Microsoft isn't stupid and doesn't really care about the desktop any more than Apple does these days
2014-05-24T08:44:40Z njsg: the problem is that the standards industry seems to be used to the "pay to use" philosophy, I mean, several standards are behind paywalls and so on. convincing them to give up on that may be a bit harder
2014-05-24T08:45:11Z njsg: heddwch: microsoft has been shifting away from desktops for several years now
2014-05-24T08:45:48Z njsg: p_l: but MPEG is in ISO standards
2014-05-24T08:46:02Z p_l: heddwch: MS gave royalty-free license on FAT for EFI
2014-05-24T08:46:04Z heddwch: njsg: Yea, that's what I'm meaning. What I'm worried about, they don't care about. On the other hand, that worries me because the industry could go way downhill if enough advertisements tell the consumers it should ;)
2014-05-24T08:46:16Z heddwch: p_l: To whom?
2014-05-24T08:46:38Z njsg: heddwch: my problem is that the whole reason why desktops became awful cheap was because microsoft made a success out of starting a monopoly with the IBM PC
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2014-05-24T08:47:11Z njsg: heddwch: if microsoft gives up on the IBM PC for desktop segment, I'd be afraid that stuff would become more expensive just because these computers are not used anymore by businesses, etc
2014-05-24T08:47:11Z rszeno and intel
2014-05-24T08:47:13Z p_l: heddwch: to anyone implementing EFI, which is probably the most problematic case
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2014-05-24T08:47:43Z njsg: I'm already late for lunch, gotta go ->
2014-05-24T08:47:49Z heddwch: njsg: Well, 50/50, IBM knew they couldn't compete in the home computer market by following their existing business practices, so gave a department license to for once use off-the-shelf solutions
2014-05-24T08:47:58Z heddwch: Thus clones could also use off-the-shelf solutions
2014-05-24T08:48:19Z heddwch: p_l: Exactly my point. When you write software that runs on EFI, you're not implementing EFI.
2014-05-24T08:48:32Z heddwch: Logically linked, yes. Patents, unfortunately, don't follow logic.
2014-05-24T08:48:39Z heddwch: (any more*)
2014-05-24T08:49:08Z p_l: heddwch: Actually, apparently interacting with EFI is also covered by the license
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2014-05-24T08:50:25Z heddwch: p_l: If that holds up, I'm glad. Again, I like the EFI interfaces (even PE, sort of, since it's at least based off an open standard), I just don't have a whole ton of trust left.
2014-05-24T08:50:47Z p_l: heddwch: well, at least EFI opens up a bunch of things to somewhate more introspection
2014-05-24T08:52:03Z heddwch: EFI is in every way superior to BIOS by lack of sheer force of time (not that the PC BIOS was ever all that good)
2014-05-24T08:52:23Z heddwch: I just wish they'd used openfirmware and not gone all NIH :(
2014-05-24T08:52:48Z p_l: heddwch: probably wanted to reuse ACPI to ease off transition
2014-05-24T08:53:02Z p_l: which covers many things that OpenFirmware afaik never did
2014-05-24T08:53:08Z heddwch: Partly just the fact that it was an existing standard they could've used with zero or equivalent-to-EFI's trouble, but mostly because I personally vastly preferred OF, tbh lol
2014-05-24T08:53:45Z heddwch: Ah, but that's the thing. ACPI does cover many things that OF didn't, but there was no incompatibility. You could have both, that's not disallowed by either standard.
2014-05-24T08:54:28Z p_l: except you'd do things twice (Device Tree vs. ACPI tables)
2014-05-24T08:55:07Z p_l: the end result would probably resemble the horrible hybrid that ARM comitted into UEFI repo some time ago
2014-05-24T08:55:18Z heddwch: As opposed to doing everything in its entirety twice?
2014-05-24T08:55:20Z p_l: which involves booting a linux kernel off UEFI with DeviceTree
2014-05-24T08:55:23Z heddwch: (OF→UEFI
2014-05-24T08:55:25Z heddwch: )*
2014-05-24T08:55:33Z p_l: heddwch: I meant that the resulting system would have duplications
2014-05-24T08:56:26Z heddwch: It wouldn't have to. Standards can be updated. Or rather, ACPI could drop its duplications that it needed because it was over piece of shit BIOS, and just use the OF standards that everybody uses even where there's no open firmware
2014-05-24T08:56:46Z heddwch: (U-Boot uses FDTs, a variant of the open firmware device trees, because they already existed and made sense)
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2014-05-24T08:58:19Z p_l: FDT is a recent developement, years after EFI went into production, and isn't really a standard (it's a linux-specific serialization format that got ported to FreeBSD as well, which was used as replacement for hardcoded C "board config" files)
2014-05-24T08:59:11Z heddwch: I don't agree with FDTs, I'd prefer them without the F
2014-05-24T08:59:18Z p_l: from what I understand, U-boot wouldn't know what FDT was if it kicked it in the arse - it's just yet another blob to load into RAM in predictable place
2014-05-24T08:59:37Z heddwch: The thing is the apologism. Yea, years after EFI went into production but nobody used it at all because Itanic.
2014-05-24T09:00:31Z p_l: meanwhile OF pretty much got used... in SPARC and Macs (not sure what the fuck is going on with PAPR)
2014-05-24T09:01:07Z heddwch: I didn't say U-Boot was good ;) I should've worded it better, though. Who else uses U-Boot but linux and freebsd? Hell, most android arm phones don't even use u-boot
2014-05-24T09:01:28Z p_l: heddwch: oh, they do. sometimes another branch, often proprietary etc.
2014-05-24T09:01:49Z heddwch: SPARC, Macs, IBM PReP systems.. That skews the numbers a bit.
2014-05-24T09:02:04Z p_l: heddwch: PReP afaik hadn't been shipped in years
2014-05-24T09:02:09Z heddwch: They were all outnumbered by various phases of Intel fuckery and Windows, though, so I guess we should go with that.
2014-05-24T09:02:27Z p_l: that's why I mentioned "whatever the fuck goes on with PAPR"
2014-05-24T09:02:35Z heddwch: lol
2014-05-24T09:03:04Z heddwch: My point, really, though, is that Open Firmware existed. It worked for that minority that wasn't Wintel, it was clean, and it was multiarchitecture
2014-05-24T09:03:13Z p_l: heddwch: also note one thing - how many vendors shipped hw that was designed to run with OpenFirmware (I mean 3rd vendors)
2014-05-24T09:03:33Z heddwch: But let's invent our own because Intel and Windows share a shaft in their latest failure, then impose it on everybody when it makes it back to the shit-ass x86
2014-05-24T09:04:19Z p_l: meanwhile, from what I understood from Phoenix blogs etc., while we haven't had (U)EFI visible on desktop, for several years by now components of EFI were used internally with vendors providing firmware integrators with DXE drivers
2014-05-24T09:04:21Z heddwch: What do you mean 3rd vendors?
2014-05-24T09:04:45Z p_l: heddwch: someone who wasn't manufacturer of hte machine or marketing through it
2014-05-24T09:05:01Z p_l: and who actually needed "option rom" part of PCI
2014-05-24T09:05:18Z heddwch: Yes, it's been a horrible transition. Microsoft got in on it and threw their executable format (used by no one else) and their file system in, then took another five years to quit wanking and release an OS that supports their own bullshit
2014-05-24T09:06:10Z heddwch: Ah, hardware vendors? Not many. IBM mostly produced their own crap as always, and there were expansion cards for the mac, obviously. ATI, Nvidia, etc. Not a very good measure, though. market is 95% wintel, 5% everything else in a lump.
2014-05-24T09:06:10Z p_l: heddwch: PE format appears to me to be more an accidental choice at intel, and it's less crazy than *BeOS* using PE format
2014-05-24T09:06:28Z heddwch: afaik, BeOS used PEF, not PE
2014-05-24T09:06:40Z heddwch: Which was apple's fuck around from xcoff, not microsoft's fuck around from xcoff
2014-05-24T09:07:35Z heddwch: Accidental my ass, man. Windows has used PE since windows NT 3.1 and win32s for windows 3.1
2014-05-24T09:07:44Z heddwch: It's totally accidental that that's what made it into EFI, yea
2014-05-24T09:08:50Z p_l: heddwch: accidental in the sense that the whole original Framework developement happened on Windows environment
2014-05-24T09:09:03Z p_l: if it went on Unix we might have seen ELF being used
2014-05-24T09:09:25Z p_l: but the team that started work on EFI back in 1999 worked on WinNT machines
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2014-05-24T09:09:48Z p_l: they already had all the tools to use PE format
2014-05-24T09:10:15Z p_l: plus, it doesn't really change much :P
2014-05-24T09:10:35Z p_l: annoying are things like Phoenix TE format
2014-05-24T09:11:18Z p_l: (at least it's documented...)
2014-05-24T09:13:07Z heddwch: That's not really accidental.
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2014-05-24T09:13:35Z heddwch: I mean, it's a good excuse, but to call that accidental is to deny that there were other platforms available, thus they had no choice but to use windows, thus they accidentally inserted Windowsism
2014-05-24T09:14:00Z p_l: heddwch: more like the other platforms were probably not that relevant at the time
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2014-05-24T09:14:32Z p_l: today the situation would have been different, but honestly, expecting something other than NT on general purpose intel-cpu workstations?
2014-05-24T09:15:00Z p_l: (in 1999, that is)
2014-05-24T09:16:01Z p_l also recalls that the ooold SDK had NT-hosted EFI test environment
2014-05-24T09:16:12Z heddwch: In 1999, unix still held a large portion of the market share for servers, linux was gaining share, BSDs were stagnant but still existed, not even leaving what was available on superdesktop-type hardware.
2014-05-24T09:16:24Z p_l: afaik the code was also quite married to Visual C back then
2014-05-24T09:16:27Z Krystof: Xach: if you have the time, an update at some point this weekend on sbcl-frozen and the impact on the Lisp world would be helpful
2014-05-24T09:16:32Z heddwch: If Itanium was targetted at desktops, they were idiots. If they were these idiots, they were still biased idiots.
2014-05-24T09:16:51Z p_l: heddwch: doesn't change much. And now I think we spammed the channel a bit much :D
2014-05-24T09:16:58Z heddwch: haha good point
2014-05-24T09:17:20Z heddwch: Good arguments, btw. That's the best defense of EFI's MS-centrisms I've seen in a good long while.
2014-05-24T09:18:50Z p_l: heddwch: after looking through echo chamber that is GNOME these days, those MS-centrisms look downright benign
2014-05-24T09:18:52Z heddwch: Er, didn't mean to fan the flames, I just meant microsoft-originated standards.
2014-05-24T09:19:05Z heddwch: Oh yea, I definitely agree with you there haha
2014-05-24T09:19:28Z p_l: to be a bit more on topic, I've been recently thinking of running SBCL directly as UEFI application
2014-05-24T09:19:44Z p_l: Intel managed to deploy an application written in Python, so why not SBCL?
2014-05-24T09:19:45Z heddwch: That would be very interesting.
2014-05-24T09:20:44Z heddwch: No real reason why not. The main thing is just having to implement anything missing from the host libc (for bare metal, non-existent) in a shim, but EFI provides a relatively complete environment
2014-05-24T09:21:24Z p_l: replace mmap() calls mostly, I think
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2014-05-24T09:21:38Z p_l: rest could be stolen from StdLib module and Python code
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2014-05-24T09:22:31Z heddwch: If you were willing to introduce a little supervisor code, mmap()'s one of the simplest things when you already have an FS/block layer implemented
2014-05-24T09:23:19Z p_l: heddwch: I was thinking more about permission bits, actually
2014-05-24T09:23:56Z heddwch: Not sure I understand what you mean
2014-05-24T09:24:22Z heddwch: (Sorry, I'm more familiar with metal than SBCL internals)
2014-05-24T09:26:44Z p_l: heddwch: page attributes
2014-05-24T09:26:59Z p_l: in case I'd need to make a page read-only for SBCL
2014-05-24T09:27:15Z p_l: also, UEFI runs in physical addressing
2014-05-24T09:27:37Z heddwch: Entirely? No paging?
2014-05-24T09:27:48Z heddwch: Er, it has to be paging, nvm..
2014-05-24T09:28:39Z heddwch: That's where it gets muddy for me and I start hating EFI >_> Open Firmware, you can put it into virtual mode, and have it cooperate with whatever you do, not just EndEverythingEFIDoes()
2014-05-24T09:28:46Z heddwch: (don't remember the actual call)
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2014-05-24T11:08:50Z otwieracz: What about nested packages?
2014-05-24T11:09:06Z otwieracz: I should use :foo-bar and :foo-bar.car or maybe :foo-bar::car?
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2014-05-24T11:10:05Z stassats`: there are no nested packages, so, it doesn't matter
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2014-05-24T11:10:18Z otwieracz: Yes, but I am asking for some good practices.
2014-05-24T11:10:33Z H4ns: practices for tsomething that does not exist?
2014-05-24T11:10:34Z H4ns: oO
2014-05-24T11:10:38Z otwieracz: :)
2014-05-24T11:10:40Z stassats`: since there are no nested packages, there are no practices
2014-05-24T11:10:49Z otwieracz: OK.
2014-05-24T11:11:24Z stassats`: but if you pretend it's nested, then juts use :foo-bar
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2014-05-24T11:44:36Z JuanDaugherty: moin lispers
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2014-05-24T11:58:36Z otwieracz: Anyone is using ironclad for public/private key generation?
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2014-05-24T12:01:18Z stassats`: why?
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2014-05-24T12:05:00Z otwieracz: Why?
2014-05-24T12:05:31Z otwieracz: I have huge problems while trying to compute/whatever p q and g parameters for DSA.
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2014-05-24T12:12:20Z JuanDaugherty: maybe email the developer?
2014-05-24T12:12:49Z JuanDaugherty: that pkg isn't something 'everybody' is using
2014-05-24T12:13:38Z otwieracz: Yes…
2014-05-24T12:13:40Z stassats`: maybe describe the problem some way other than "huge"?
2014-05-24T12:13:48Z otwieracz: I have to generate p q and g numbers by myself.
2014-05-24T12:14:00Z otwieracz: And it is completely not trivial for me.
2014-05-24T12:14:14Z otwieracz: Generating fixed-length prime number is already supported by Ironclad.
2014-05-24T12:14:28Z otwieracz: But I have no idea how to generate those two:
2014-05-24T12:14:28Z otwieracz: Choose an L-bit prime modulus p such that p–1 is a multiple of q.
2014-05-24T12:14:29Z otwieracz: Choose g, a number whose multiplicative order modulo p is q. This may be done by setting g = h(p–1)/q mod p for some arbitrary h (1 < h < p−1), and trying again with a different h if the result comes out as 1. Most choices of h will lead to a usable g; commonly h=2 is used.
2014-05-24T12:14:35Z otwieracz: (p and g)
2014-05-24T12:15:05Z JuanDaugherty: sounds like you need a number theory / arithmetic channel rather than a lisp one
2014-05-24T12:15:18Z otwieracz: I'm afraid that's true.
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2014-05-24T12:16:16Z JuanDaugherty: shouldn't take more than a few hours with whatever lisp bignum pkg
2014-05-24T12:16:37Z JuanDaugherty: presumably a gpm binding
2014-05-24T12:16:57Z JuanDaugherty: *gmp
2014-05-24T12:17:22Z JuanDaugherty: s/presumably/advisedly/
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2014-05-24T12:20:08Z stassats`: otwieracz: have you tried using ssh-keygen or something?
2014-05-24T12:20:27Z otwieracz: No, no.
2014-05-24T12:21:06Z JuanDaugherty: there is an excellent calligraphed text "Elementary Number Theory" btw if you can find it on amazon or wherever
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2014-05-24T12:21:41Z stassats`:  openssl rsa -text -noout < id_rsa prints things
2014-05-24T12:22:04Z stassats`: modulus: publicExponent: privateExponent: prime1: prime2:
2014-05-24T12:22:05Z stassats`: etc.
2014-05-24T12:22:18Z stassats`: and id_rsa was generated by ssh-keygen
2014-05-24T12:23:13Z otwieracz: $ openssl dsaparam -text -noout 2048
2014-05-24T12:23:21Z otwieracz: That's how can I generate those numbers.
2014-05-24T12:23:34Z stassats`: there you go
2014-05-24T12:26:13Z stassats`: and to get those strings: (ironclad:hex-string-to-byte-array (remove #\: x))
2014-05-24T12:26:21Z otwieracz: nice.
2014-05-24T12:26:46Z stassats`: that leaves X and Y parameters
2014-05-24T12:28:05Z stassats`: gendsa, probably?
2014-05-24T12:29:14Z otwieracz: No.
2014-05-24T12:29:34Z otwieracz: Only dsaparam – which generates params for DSA. Then I can do DSA generation from Ironclad (which will be better for me).
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2014-05-24T12:31:24Z stassats`: so, are X/Y parameters important?
2014-05-24T12:31:43Z stassats`: anyhow, if you get things to work, maybe make a write up on it
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2014-05-24T12:37:03Z stassats`: otwieracz: if you do openssl gendsa -des3 dsaparam.pem -out x and then openssl dsa -text < x
2014-05-24T12:37:19Z stassats`: it will output all the parameters, p q g y x
2014-05-24T12:37:46Z otwieracz: stassats`: i will try to parse the string returned from dsaparm
2014-05-24T12:37:58Z stassats`: the PSUjZ8dOtbR/g7F/J ?
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2014-05-24T12:38:23Z stassats`: if ironclad can't do that yet, that could be a contribution
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2014-05-24T12:40:05Z stassats`: minion: asn.1?
2014-05-24T12:40:06Z minion: asn.1: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/asn.1
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2014-05-24T12:48:33Z stassats`: looks like it has only BER, not DER
2014-05-24T12:51:50Z stassats`: i guess it's easier just to pare those hex strings
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2014-05-24T12:54:42Z stassats`: asn.1 works, just need to base64 decode it first
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2014-05-24T12:55:20Z stassats`: otwieracz: (asn.1:ber-decode (cl-base64:base64-string-to-usb8-array the-fancy-string))
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2014-05-24T14:40:14Z inklesspen: suppose i have a bunch of forms, each of which can either signal a condition or return a value, and i want to get the value from the first one which returns a value, or nil if none of them do. if they returned nil instead of signaling, i could just use (or ...). i could wrap each of the forms in a handler-case to return nil if the condition is signaled, but i thought i'd see if there's a better way.
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2014-05-24T14:40:47Z pjb: (or (ignore-errors f1) (ignore-errors f2) … (ignore-errors fn))
2014-05-24T14:40:58Z pjb: Well, if none return nil.
2014-05-24T14:41:38Z inklesspen: well, ideally i'd only trap a single condition type and any others wouldn't be ignored
2014-05-24T14:41:49Z stassats`: never use ignore-errors, unless you have to
2014-05-24T14:41:51Z pjb: otherwise: (block good (handler-case f1 (:no-error (result) (return-from good result)) (error ()))  ... (handler-case fn (:no-error (result) (return-from good result)) (error ())))
2014-05-24T14:42:30Z inklesspen: dang.
2014-05-24T14:42:33Z stassats`: inklesspen: what's wrong (handler-case (or a b c) ...)?
2014-05-24T14:42:40Z stassats`: with
2014-05-24T14:42:51Z pjb: they may return nil validly.
2014-05-24T14:43:02Z inklesspen: stassats`: if a raises the condition, how will that cause b to be evaluated?
2014-05-24T14:43:54Z pjb: You could also do (block good (handler-bind ((your-condition (lambda (condition) (throw 'continue nil)))) (catch 'continue (return-from good f1)) (catch 'continue (return-from good f2)) … (catch 'continue (return-from good fn))))
2014-05-24T14:43:58Z pjb: perhaps.
2014-05-24T14:44:20Z nyef: ... I missed a LispOS/SBCL-on-bare-metal discussion last night?
2014-05-24T14:44:44Z pjb: until we have one lisp machine, I guess you'll have one such discussion every night! :-)
2014-05-24T14:44:44Z p_l: heh
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2014-05-24T14:45:04Z p_l: nyef: do we need mprotect() for SBCL to work? :D
2014-05-24T14:45:17Z stassats`: yes
2014-05-24T14:45:28Z nyef: We do for cheneygc, gencgc merely works a whole lot better with it.
2014-05-24T14:45:30Z pjb: inklesspen: I'd expect the later to be rather efficient.
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2014-05-24T14:46:25Z nyef: I've had a very minimal core file running on bare x86, loaded by a small Forth system, but it wasn't at the point of working GC.
2014-05-24T14:47:22Z p_l: nyef: I was thinking of sticking SBCL onto EFI
2014-05-24T14:47:25Z nyef: To the point of hacking up x86 segment descriptor and page tables from Lisp.
2014-05-24T14:47:32Z stassats`: p_l: what for?
2014-05-24T14:48:38Z p_l: stassats`: fun
2014-05-24T14:48:43Z p_l: and upstaging Python
2014-05-24T14:49:12Z p_l: I didn't think anyone would seriously use CPython on EFI, then I found intel publishing tools written this way
2014-05-24T14:49:44Z nyef: I don't know anything about EFI, really, so I don't know what's involved or what the limits are.
2014-05-24T14:51:00Z p_l: nyef: physical addressing (32bit or 64bit), unfortunately it appears that memory range attributes are only available while switching firmware off
2014-05-24T14:51:13Z stassats`: no MMU?
2014-05-24T14:52:00Z p_l: stassats`: there's MMU, it's just that page table reflects physical layout and there's no API to modify it before switchover to virtual addressing which happens after OS load
2014-05-24T14:52:19Z JuanDaugherty: how do you get cheney in sbcl?
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2014-05-24T14:52:33Z nyef: Do you need EFI services afterwards, and can you "just" flip back and forth as needed?
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2014-05-24T14:53:06Z nyef: JuanDaugherty: ./make.sh --without-gencgc --with-cheneygc on SPARC or PPC, just build on ARM, MIPS, ALPHA, or HPPA, and you don't on x86 or x86-64.
2014-05-24T14:53:22Z stassats`: and you don't really want to get cheney gc
2014-05-24T14:53:24Z JuanDaugherty: have to implement for intel?
2014-05-24T14:53:28Z p_l: nyef: only Runtime Services, and afaik you can't flip back
2014-05-24T14:53:32Z JuanDaugherty: (in order to use)
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2014-05-24T14:53:56Z nyef: JuanDaugherty: Not enough registers for the required partitioned set on x86, and it'd require quite a bit of doing to sort it out for x86-64.
2014-05-24T14:54:14Z JuanDaugherty: stassats`, if you were voicing my desires, why do i so desire?
2014-05-24T14:54:35Z stassats`: because you don't know better
2014-05-24T14:54:36Z JuanDaugherty: nyef, i c, thx
2014-05-24T14:55:27Z JuanDaugherty: stassats`, better than what?
2014-05-24T14:56:22Z JuanDaugherty: unclear what presumptions you have made about me to make such assertions on my internal mental states but whatever
2014-05-24T14:56:25Z nyef: Cheneygc on SBCL is the baseline GC, which you really don't want to use, for a variety of reasons, including object pinning requiring turning off the GC, complete incompatibility with threads, and having to GC the *ENTIRE* heap each time rather than the locality introduced by a generational collector.
2014-05-24T14:56:56Z JuanDaugherty: what is your meaning of "baseline" here?
2014-05-24T14:56:58Z nyef: Its advantages are that it's a whole lot easier to get running, and is generally less fragile.
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2014-05-24T14:57:50Z JuanDaugherty: since I'm ready to reinvent a world with a lisp system there's no reason (given so far) for me not to opt for it
2014-05-24T14:58:14Z JuanDaugherty: if I want to tightly bind to a preemptive RT kernel e.g.
2014-05-24T14:58:41Z stassats`: cheneygc for RT? ha-ha
2014-05-24T14:58:44Z JuanDaugherty: *with lisp as a foundational element
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2014-05-24T14:59:18Z JuanDaugherty: why not? cheney's not to run in the active RT space
2014-05-24T14:59:20Z nyef: Whoo! If I were doing a preemptive RT kernel in Lisp, I'd be looking at doing something on the order of the Azul pauseless system.
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2014-05-24T14:59:54Z p_l: nyef: having low-level access might be useful for that, I heard they needed EPT to reimplement it without their specialized cpu
2014-05-24T14:59:58Z stassats`: even gencgc is not a good GC
2014-05-24T15:00:09Z JuanDaugherty: it's java
2014-05-24T15:00:14Z JuanDaugherty: (azul)
2014-05-24T15:00:27Z nyef: With cheneygc you have to touch almost every single piece of the heap every time you do a collection.
2014-05-24T15:00:39Z nyef: With gencgc, you at least have *some* locality benefits.
2014-05-24T15:01:01Z nyef: p_l: Yeah, there is that. I'm not quite sure where the EPT bits come in, though.
2014-05-24T15:01:09Z JuanDaugherty: yeah it's 2014, a typical list image is a small part of core
2014-05-24T15:01:14Z JuanDaugherty: *lisp
2014-05-24T15:01:35Z stassats`: is JuanDaugherty always incoherent, or is it just my impression?
2014-05-24T15:01:39Z nyef: JuanDaugherty: A GC algorithm is a GC algorithm. The implementation might be a lot more specific, but the basic ideas are usually still good.
2014-05-24T15:02:05Z JuanDaugherty: stassats`, luv u 2 babs, gotta go to the sto here in min tho
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2014-05-24T15:05:01Z JuanDaugherty: did the azul thing have significance for lisp implementations other than conceptually?
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2014-05-24T15:05:18Z JuanDaugherty: s/babs/babe/
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2014-05-24T15:07:04Z nydel: can the list given by (class-slots (class-of {{instance-of-a-std-class-i-defined}})) be used to automatically access all the slot-values of that class?
2014-05-24T15:07:20Z stassats`: yes
2014-05-24T15:07:31Z stassats`: see slot-value-using-class
2014-05-24T15:07:37Z Krystof: with cheneygc you have to touch every *live* bit of the heap
2014-05-24T15:07:43Z p_l: nyef: hmm. Looks like I was mistaken about EPT. They do, however, appear to be using inline read-barrier
2014-05-24T15:08:01Z Krystof: if everything you cons is instantly garbage, cheneygc will be better than a generational collector
2014-05-24T15:08:16Z nyef: p_l: Yeah, that's about how much I'd figured out. And the kernel support they need is for the mass remapping of a lot of pages at once.
2014-05-24T15:08:33Z nyef: Krystof: Still have to scan static-space, though.
2014-05-24T15:09:43Z JuanDaugherty will consult public log in interim
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2014-05-24T15:11:57Z nyef: Now, the read barrier bit is interesting, in that it seems to test two different things, IIRC, and I have yet to figure out quite how to add such a barrier to SBCL.
2014-05-24T15:12:36Z nydel: stassats`: i can't quite get the syntax(a concept or two eludes) for (slot-value-using-class) could i bother you to write an example form for me?
2014-05-24T15:12:45Z nydel: not much literature available on this one
2014-05-24T15:12:53Z nyef: nydel: AMOP is the classic guide here.
2014-05-24T15:13:09Z stassats`: (slot-value-using-class (class-of object) object slot)
2014-05-24T15:13:14Z stassats`: obviously
2014-05-24T15:13:36Z Krystof: nydel: there are extensive tests of mop facilities in the sbcl regression tests
2014-05-24T15:13:39Z Krystof: you could look there
2014-05-24T15:14:14Z nydel: the slot argument, can it be one of the objects in the list returned by the form i wrote above, the one (class-slots... etc
2014-05-24T15:14:36Z stassats`: that's the only thing it can be
2014-05-24T15:14:38Z nydel: nyef: looking for that..
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2014-05-24T15:14:46Z nydel: ok
2014-05-24T15:14:53Z stassats`: mop s-v-u-c
2014-05-24T15:14:54Z specbot: slot-value-using-class: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-value-using-class.html
2014-05-24T15:15:18Z nydel: ah, i wasn't quoting the name of the class
2014-05-24T15:15:28Z nydel: thanks stassats` & everyone
2014-05-24T15:15:44Z stassats`: quoting? where does quoting come in?
2014-05-24T15:16:28Z nydel: (slot-value-using-class 'myclassname instanceofmyclass (car **))
2014-05-24T15:16:32Z nydel: the one before myclassname
2014-05-24T15:17:29Z stassats`: that doesn't work
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2014-05-24T15:18:04Z nydel: it does in my repl which is slime/sbcl with :closer-mop used
2014-05-24T15:18:14Z stassats`: sbcl happens to ignore this argument
2014-05-24T15:19:11Z nydel: in other implementations that quote would cause the form to produce an error?
2014-05-24T15:19:22Z stassats`: it is asking you for a class, not for a symbol
2014-05-24T15:20:20Z nydel: such as #<STANDARD-CLASS> you mean as opposed to 'standard-class?
2014-05-24T15:20:34Z stassats`: such as (class-of object)
2014-05-24T15:20:40Z nydel: right that.
2014-05-24T15:21:09Z nydel: that works as well in sbcl -- is it more proper?
2014-05-24T15:21:26Z stassats`: it is the only proper way
2014-05-24T15:21:56Z nydel: oh i understand, sorry i didn't see what you meant by sbcl ignores that argument
2014-05-24T15:22:13Z nydel: thank you
2014-05-24T15:22:40Z nydel: yeah it can be nil
2014-05-24T15:22:55Z nydel: not that i'm going to write that.
2014-05-24T15:23:31Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-05-24T15:24:10Z stassats`: that's probably a bad thing
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2014-05-24T15:24:52Z nydel: it doesn't seem like a good one. should i raise the issue
2014-05-24T15:25:32Z nydel: it's the same with pure sbcl (no slime or loaded systems)
2014-05-24T15:25:48Z stassats`: if you want to
2014-05-24T15:26:12Z nydel: i'll have a look myself and see if it's something to worry about
2014-05-24T15:26:25Z stassats`: well, it misled you
2014-05-24T15:26:26Z nydel: need a break from conquering my clos-phobia anyway
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2014-05-24T15:27:11Z nydel: yeah it certainly did, good thing i'm tired and didn't feed it a class or i'd not have noticed
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2014-05-24T15:27:51Z stassats`: i'll remember to add a type check after the freeze
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2014-05-24T15:30:11Z stassats`: the fastest way to access slots should
2014-05-24T15:30:13Z stassats`: clhs s-i-a
2014-05-24T15:30:13Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for s-i-a.
2014-05-24T15:30:16Z stassats`: mop s-i-a
2014-05-24T15:30:16Z specbot: standard-instance-access: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/standard-instance-access.html
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2014-05-24T15:32:13Z nydel: do you have a lispworks repl handy
2014-05-24T15:32:26Z stassats`: maybe?
2014-05-24T15:33:19Z nydel: i'm just seeing how the others handle the same form
2014-05-24T15:33:25Z nydel: and don't have that lisp
2014-05-24T15:33:34Z stassats`: which form?
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2014-05-24T15:34:21Z nydel: calling slot-value-using-class
2014-05-24T15:34:46Z stassats`: slot-value-using-class is standard, if an implementation doesn't support it, ask for your money back
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2014-05-24T15:36:06Z nydel: i mean to see if the {class} argument is ignored
2014-05-24T15:36:16Z stassats`: it doesn't matter
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2014-05-24T15:42:14Z nydel: does anyone know of an existing cl system for gopher tcp/ip
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2014-05-24T15:47:18Z nydel: hmm i really don't see one anywhere, this surprises me
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2014-05-24T15:48:26Z Xach: heh. i wrote a C gopher client many years ago. i could port it for ya.
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2014-05-24T15:50:14Z nydel: if it's no trouble.. i was just going to define a :cl-gopher package now
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2014-05-24T15:51:08Z Xach: oh, it's plenty of trouble, it would cost real money. sorry!
2014-05-24T15:51:10Z nydel: i use gopher on ma.sdf and a hunchentoot behind apache, i'd like to be able to grab my gopher pages from the w3 end
2014-05-24T15:51:12Z stassats`: what year is it?!
2014-05-24T15:51:30Z Xach: you could just run-program my gopher client
2014-05-24T15:51:34Z Xach: it's in debian
2014-05-24T15:52:09Z nydel: ha it's 1960something i think. gopher is coming back
2014-05-24T15:53:22Z nydel: most mainstream web clients support it via add-on by now, excluding chromes. curl too i think
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2014-05-24T15:54:39Z nydel: there's a lot of interesting content on sdf gopher, a couple of lisp enthusiasts too
2014-05-24T15:55:04Z stassats`: they are probably using interlisp
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2014-05-24T15:56:36Z nydel chuckles
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2014-05-24T16:06:39Z Blkt_ is now known as Blkt
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2014-05-24T16:07:59Z marsbot is now known as marsam
2014-05-24T16:12:02Z nyef: beach: Ping?
2014-05-24T16:12:57Z oleo: morning!
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2014-05-24T16:19:31Z theos: sup
2014-05-24T16:21:33Z beach: nyef: Yes, I am here.
2014-05-24T16:21:41Z beach: hello oleo!
2014-05-24T16:22:16Z nyef: beach: Been reading more of the cleavir paper you shared.
2014-05-24T16:22:24Z beach: nyef: Great!
2014-05-24T16:23:23Z nyef: You're aware that removing parts of the instruction graph based on analysis at level 2 could open up more lexical locations for SSA-conversion?
2014-05-24T16:23:42Z bege quit (Quit: leaving)
2014-05-24T16:23:46Z oleo: heya beach!
2014-05-24T16:24:07Z beach: nyef: Oh, because some previously captured variables no longer are?
2014-05-24T16:24:11Z nyef: Yup.
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2014-05-24T16:24:22Z beach: nyef: Interesting.
2014-05-24T16:24:33Z beach: nyef: I will give that some thought.
2014-05-24T16:24:37Z beach: Thanks for pointing it out.
2014-05-24T16:25:41Z nyef: I'm trying to figure out a related bit of damage in SBCL where after a certain point all remaining lambdas are considered to be "live", but a subsequent flow-driven pass is screwing up because they aren't actually reachable.
2014-05-24T16:26:02Z beach: I see.
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2014-05-24T16:26:55Z nyef: And have you considered treating CONS cells as "standard objects" at most of the MIR levels?
2014-05-24T16:27:12Z nyef: Rather than having CAR-INSTRUCTION et al.?
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2014-05-24T16:27:34Z beach: nyef: I hadn't considered that.
2014-05-24T16:27:52Z beach: But I suppose that could work.
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2014-05-24T16:28:46Z beach: I am not so good at making decisions in real time, so I shall need time to digest the information.
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2014-05-24T16:29:09Z nyef: Umm... And I'm not convinced that chains of PHI-instructions are the best representation, what if you have a single PHI-instruction that contains sets of inputs for more than one output?
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2014-05-24T16:30:16Z beach: I decided that because I thought I needed a relation between inputs and outputs in every instruction without examining it in detail.
2014-05-24T16:30:37Z beach: If I do a single phi instruction, then they will all be mixed up.
2014-05-24T16:30:51Z beach: But I am not sure that doing it that way would be a problem.
2014-05-24T16:31:40Z nyef: I'm concerned somewhat about having to basically backtrack through a series of phi-instructions when you're doing some analysis, rather than saying "oh, here's a phi-instruction", and having the list of predecessors /right there/.
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2014-05-24T16:31:55Z beach: Yes, I understand the concern.
2014-05-24T16:32:17Z beach: On the other hand, consider something like liveness analysis.
2014-05-24T16:32:45Z beach: You would have to examine the internals of the phi instruction in order to know which variables are live then.
2014-05-24T16:32:59Z nyef: True, so there's a tradeoff.
2014-05-24T16:33:04Z beach: Yes.
2014-05-24T16:33:22Z beach: But you are right.  Those phi instructions are messy.
2014-05-24T16:33:49Z beach: They are the only ones where the order and number of predecessor matter.
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2014-05-24T16:34:27Z beach: I suppose I could provide and implode/explode-phi operation on the graph.
2014-05-24T16:35:00Z beach: That way, you could use whatever is more convenient for the operation at hand.
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2014-05-24T16:37:35Z beach: nyef: Thanks for doing all the reading!
2014-05-24T16:38:01Z nyef: The nop-instruction doesn't seem, at first glance, to be useful, though I see it mentioned in the context of transforming a typeq-instruction where one branch is known to be dead.
2014-05-24T16:38:39Z beach: Yeah, it's easier for most transformations to just introduce a NOP, and then have a global thing that removes all the NOPs.
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2014-05-24T16:39:25Z nyef: As opposed to... pruning inaccessible instructions immediately?
2014-05-24T16:39:25Z beach: Also, there are some SSA-based optimizations that cant handle And instruction with several successors, one of which has several predecessors.
2014-05-24T16:39:30Z beach: Yeah.
2014-05-24T16:40:09Z beach: It is probably more efficient to delay the pruning until several transformations have been made.
2014-05-24T16:40:33Z nyef: Okay, mentioning the purpose of the nop-instruction in its writeup is probably a good idea, then.
2014-05-24T16:40:41Z beach: Good idea.
2014-05-24T16:41:13Z nyef: I'm also massively unconvinced about all of the specialized fixnum and float instructions, but that's at least partly my SBCL experience showing through.
2014-05-24T16:41:52Z beach: I introduced them recently.  I don't know whether they will survive yet.
2014-05-24T16:42:15Z beach: Time will tell.
2014-05-24T16:42:41Z beach: The plan is to remove pairs of box followed by unbox.
2014-05-24T16:42:56Z nyef: On to more TeXnical details: Is this straight-up LaTeX with embedded graphviz stuff, or some other source representation?
2014-05-24T16:43:05Z beach: Also, an access to a specialized array will produce an unboxed float.
2014-05-24T16:43:13Z beach: The figures?
2014-05-24T16:43:21Z beach: Those are Xfig.
2014-05-24T16:43:26Z Xach: H4ns: Today is Saturday, May 24th.
2014-05-24T16:43:39Z beach: nyef: But the code has Graphviz drawing primitives.
2014-05-24T16:43:59Z beach: nyef: ... so that I can see what the transformations produce.
2014-05-24T16:44:50Z nyef: Hmm.
2014-05-24T16:45:41Z nyef: The reason I ask is that I'm considering writing up some documentation for my own use about how parts of SBCL work, and being able to embed graph fragments easily would be useful.
2014-05-24T16:45:46Z beach: The Graphviz drawing is useful for debugging very small examples.  It quickly gets unreadable with bigger ones, or when I introduce registers and stuff.
2014-05-24T16:46:04Z beach: Oh, I see.
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2014-05-24T16:46:21Z beach: What produces the fragments?
2014-05-24T16:46:58Z nyef: I'd probably be describing them "by hand" based on my understanding of the code.
2014-05-24T16:47:04Z Krystof: nyef: I currently recommend org-mode with embedded $other_thing
2014-05-24T16:47:25Z Krystof: I use tikz with latex, usually, but I have sometimes used more exotic stuff
2014-05-24T16:47:28Z nyef: Hrm. That's what I was beginning to consider, especially given that I use org-mode already.
2014-05-24T16:48:31Z beach: OK, time to go spend some time with my (admittedly small) family.
2014-05-24T16:48:36Z nyef: beach: Have fun.
2014-05-24T16:48:38Z beach: nyef: Thanks again for your help.
2014-05-24T16:48:49Z nyef: Not a problem.
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2014-05-24T17:53:13Z aindilis: Hi, I am trying to compile EPILOG (http://www.cs.rochester.edu/research/epilog/ http://www.cs.rochester.edu/research/epilog/EPILOG-2005-JUN-22.tgz) on an open source lisp (cmucl): , but I get http://pastebin.com/6MesET81 : and when trying clisp it complains about system:*require-search-list*.
2014-05-24T17:54:36Z nyef: aindilis: Looks like EPILOG is expecting a CLtL era Common Lisp, which is the '84 standard, while most (all?) free implementations follow closer to the '94 standard.
2014-05-24T17:55:16Z nyef: Try changing references to the "USER" package to "CL-USER", and see if that gets you further.
2014-05-24T17:55:23Z aindilis: thank you so much!
2014-05-24T17:55:26Z nyef: But expect trouble whichever way you go.
2014-05-24T17:55:30Z aindilis: k
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2014-05-24T19:48:57Z aindilis: nyef: got it working thanks to your tip, thank you so much again!
2014-05-24T19:49:10Z nyef: aindilis: You're welcome.
2014-05-24T19:49:15Z aindilis: :)
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2014-05-24T20:09:33Z Quadrescence: Any SBCL folk have any idea why I might be getting this unreachable code note: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142687
2014-05-24T20:11:05Z nyef: Is :SPEC a valid keyword arg there?
2014-05-24T20:11:52Z stassats`: coerce 'vector expands into (if (vectorp x) x)
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2014-05-24T20:14:31Z Quadrescence: stassats`, so the true branch will just get eliminated?
2014-05-24T20:14:55Z pjb: I'd be much more worried about the missing else branch.
2014-05-24T20:15:47Z stassats`: i think those notes are ignored for transforms
2014-05-24T20:15:49Z pjb: If what stassats` says is true, there are horrible bugs in sbcl.
2014-05-24T20:16:01Z Quadrescence: I assume stassats` conveniently elided that for the sake of brevity
2014-05-24T20:16:16Z stassats`: i elided it for the sake of annoying pjb
2014-05-24T20:16:17Z pjb: Then what we says is not true.
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2014-05-24T20:16:31Z nyef: pjb: There ARE horrible bugs in sbcl, but apparently not that one.
2014-05-24T20:16:38Z pjb: :-)
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2014-05-24T20:27:56Z Quadrescence: Is this a valid use of dynamic-extent if A will always be a list of integers?   (defun f (&rest a) (declare (dynamic-extent a)) (store-somewhere (car a)))
2014-05-24T20:28:44Z Quadrescence: Specifically when (CAR A) is a BIGNUM.
2014-05-24T20:28:57Z nyef: Umm... There might be some issues with bignum consing if F gets inlined.
2014-05-24T20:29:41Z stassats`: you don't need to declare it, on sbcl
2014-05-24T20:30:01Z nyef: ... You don't?
2014-05-24T20:30:46Z stassats`: nope
2014-05-24T20:30:52Z stassats`: sbcl is that smart!
2014-05-24T20:31:01Z nyef: Okay, I can see explicit destructuring of an unknown-values list like that getting optimized, yeah.
2014-05-24T20:31:29Z stassats`: unescaping &REST is &MOREd
2014-05-24T20:31:34Z stassats`: and CAR works on &MORE
2014-05-24T20:31:36Z nyef: Right, right.
2014-05-24T20:32:04Z nyef: I'm just suddenly thinking "wait, that actually *IS* a UVL, so why don't we represent it as such explicitly?"
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2014-05-24T21:53:54Z Pixel_Outlaw: Odd question, but can two lisp programs talk to each other back and forth without need to involve web server packages?
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2014-05-24T21:54:10Z Bike: sure, there are lots of ways for programs to talk
2014-05-24T21:55:14Z Pixel_Outlaw: Hopefully better than creating files between them and checking for new ones every few millisecs...
2014-05-24T21:55:30Z stassats`: shared memory!
2014-05-24T21:56:02Z Pixel_Outlaw: But I recall Lisp using a notion of "place" rather than pointers to access memory.
2014-05-24T21:56:22Z JuanDaugherty: it's called IPC it's very basic
2014-05-24T21:56:35Z stassats`: Lisp is using whatever notion you throw at it
2014-05-24T21:57:07Z nyef: You could even load the two programs into the same process image.
2014-05-24T21:59:31Z prxq: Pixel_Outlaw: Common Lisp is rather more pragmatic and open-minded than its reputation. Whatever works for other programs can be made to work with CL.
2014-05-24T21:59:58Z nyef: ... Usually, at least.
2014-05-24T22:00:13Z Pixel_Outlaw: I see prxq. I just assumed you always have to write a wrapper for a C library...
2014-05-24T22:00:19Z Pixel_Outlaw: I
2014-05-24T22:00:21Z _death: saw http://markcox80.github.io/basic-binary-ipc/ lately.. I also like https://github.com/orivej/pzmq
2014-05-24T22:00:51Z Pixel_Outlaw: Cool, looking now.
2014-05-24T22:01:00Z _death: also https://github.com/lmj/lfarm/blob/master/README.md
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2014-05-24T22:02:08Z Pixel_Outlaw: Something like this could be nice. I've wanted to impliment some of the logic in lisp but wouldn't mind using another language for graphics and capturing user input.
2014-05-24T22:02:48Z Pixel_Outlaw: So you have sort of a terminal like interface written in say Python and OpenGL and then a Lisp program for the logic.
2014-05-24T22:03:03Z axion: what benefit would that have?
2014-05-24T22:03:14Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'm scared of bit rot in CL.
2014-05-24T22:03:53Z prxq: Pixel_Outlaw: you mean you are scared of old sofrware?
2014-05-24T22:03:54Z Pixel_Outlaw: With speciality libraries that is...
2014-05-24T22:04:05Z _death: eh.. I'd say python is more prone to bitrot... given the py2/3 fiasco
2014-05-24T22:04:13Z Pixel_Outlaw: That is true, heh.
2014-05-24T22:04:43Z prxq: lisp is rather not prone to bitrot
2014-05-24T22:04:47Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'm just concerned as many of the libraries just seem to have one or so maintainers who may have not been active in years...
2014-05-24T22:05:24Z prxq: often enough because nothing has happened and stuff just works.
2014-05-24T22:05:34Z prxq: Pixel_Outlaw: are you using quicklisp?
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2014-05-24T22:06:03Z Pixel_Outlaw: Yes, I have it here. My last attempt to build OpenGL support ended in failure and I was not sure of the resolution.
2014-05-24T22:06:18Z _death: (ql:quickload "cl-opengl") doesn't work?
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2014-05-24T22:07:13Z Pixel_Outlaw: Just ran it and it appears to have loaded. Maybe it was something else, let me see.
2014-05-24T22:07:52Z Pixel_Outlaw: Ah, believe it was SDL.
2014-05-24T22:07:56Z Pixel_Outlaw: Let me try that once more.
2014-05-24T22:08:02Z _death: (ql:quickload "sdl2") doesn't work?
2014-05-24T22:08:17Z prxq: :-)
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2014-05-24T22:08:54Z Pixel_Outlaw: I believe I used lispbuilder-sdl as my package.
2014-05-24T22:09:36Z Pixel_Outlaw: The name "CL-GLUT-EXAMPLES" does not designate any package.
2014-05-24T22:09:36Z Pixel_Outlaw:    [Condition of type SB-KERNEL:SIMPLE-PACKAGE-ERROR]
2014-05-24T22:10:31Z _death: seems a broken system definition then.. try (ql:quickload "cl-glut-examples") beforehand
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2014-05-24T22:11:36Z Pixel_Outlaw: Ah! Works now.
2014-05-24T22:11:41Z Pixel_Outlaw: Thank you.
2014-05-24T22:12:02Z axion: are you starting a game project?
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2014-05-24T22:15:35Z Pixel_Outlaw: No, I'd just like to toy around with some graphing and visualization.
2014-05-24T22:15:38Z Pixel_Outlaw: I tinker a lot.
2014-05-24T22:15:54Z Pixel_Outlaw: I used to make many games though. :)
2014-05-24T22:16:27Z Pixel_Outlaw: I've been exporting to ppm, but would be nice to see changes without the hassel.
2014-05-24T22:16:37Z axion: I was gonna say quite a few of us here do, and talk about it in #lispgames
2014-05-24T22:17:02Z Pixel_Outlaw: I've been there, just forgot the (quite obveous now) name.
2014-05-24T22:17:45Z Pixel_Outlaw: Awesome, my image is on the screen now. I'm very happy.
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2014-05-24T22:18:02Z Pixel_Outlaw: Now I can play with visual algorithms.
2014-05-24T22:19:02Z Pixel_Outlaw: Thanks all.
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2014-05-24T22:49:54Z drmeister: Weak key hash tables - these are a Common Lisp extension requiring low level implementation support - correct?   Can you implement them in standard Common Lisp?
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2014-05-24T22:50:59Z stassats`: of course you can't, there's no garbage collection in common lisp
2014-05-24T22:51:45Z drmeister: The Boehm garbage collector and MPS garbage collectors handle weak references very differently.   If I want a weak-key-hash-table I think I would have to have a separate implementation for each garbage collector.
2014-05-24T22:52:13Z drmeister: And I use a weak-key-hash-table to keep track of source code information for debugging and backtraces - I don't want to give that up.
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2014-05-24T22:53:13Z drmeister: stassats: You are correct as usual, there is no GC in the Common Lisp standard.
2014-05-24T22:53:54Z drmeister: So no GC means no concept of weak references?
2014-05-24T22:56:18Z drmeister: Alright!   I just got the compiler to compile itself with the Boehm GC.
2014-05-24T22:56:45Z drmeister: Virtual memory went from 2.51GB to 3.21 GB.    The housing is still cool to the touch!
2014-05-24T22:57:01Z stassats`: i just got gencgc to corrupt something else
2014-05-24T22:58:51Z drmeister: What's gencgc?   Are you messing with garbage collectors as well?
2014-05-24T22:59:17Z drmeister: Yes, SBCL GC
2014-05-24T22:59:27Z stassats`: enabling it on ARM
2014-05-24T22:59:32Z drmeister: Ah.
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2014-05-25T00:16:52Z replcated: What is currently the best free Windows Common Lisp?  By best I mean quicklisp supported libraries, networking, bordeaux-threads, etc.  It's going to be a bit before I can afford a either Lispworks or Allegro.
2014-05-25T00:17:15Z Bike: isn't ccl pretty good on windows?
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2014-05-25T00:17:56Z stassats`: sbcl is alright too
2014-05-25T00:21:24Z JuanDaugherty: yeah, the maintainer can die and the software with it but if it works it lives still
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2014-05-25T00:21:46Z JuanDaugherty: i.e. the software die in the sense of change
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2014-05-25T00:22:31Z JuanDaugherty: (inadvertent reply to unscrolled scroll)
2014-05-25T00:23:59Z nyef: Best free windows common lisp? Running Linux in a VM. d-:
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2014-05-25T00:28:37Z replcated: nyef:  No kidding!
2014-05-25T00:29:23Z JuanDaugherty: replcated, sbcl is pretty dominant right now, has been for a while
2014-05-25T00:29:31Z JuanDaugherty: (in free lisps)
2014-05-25T00:29:48Z JuanDaugherty: (fitting your spec)
2014-05-25T00:30:39Z JuanDaugherty: sorry my bad
2014-05-25T00:30:57Z JuanDaugherty: I just don't put dos and lisp together
2014-05-25T00:31:17Z JuanDaugherty: and would think allegro or lw for that
2014-05-25T00:31:59Z Bike: they said windows, not dos...
2014-05-25T00:32:24Z JuanDaugherty: same thing to me, i'm ancient
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2014-05-25T00:33:11Z stassats`: wouldn't "senile" be a better word then?
2014-05-25T00:33:35Z JuanDaugherty: OK, this is the ignore point for you
2014-05-25T00:44:14Z inklesspen: i agree with nyef
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2014-05-25T01:14:16Z replcated: Thanks.  After a bit of futzing around I have sbcl running drakma with SSL on Windows.
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2014-05-25T01:19:14Z nyef: I still remember that period of north of a year where I could call MessageBox() in SBCL and it would fail miserably if it was a direct call from the REPL, but would work fine if the compiler was involved.
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2014-05-25T02:24:20Z zxq9: Is there a decently cross-platform widget kit for GUI programming with SBCL?
2014-05-25T02:24:27Z stassats`: commonqt
2014-05-25T02:24:44Z p_l: Ltk can be used as well, I guess
2014-05-25T02:25:15Z zxq9: Does commonqt represent a wrapper to qt in general, or just part of it?
2014-05-25T02:25:45Z stassats`: to the whole qt
2014-05-25T02:26:19Z p_l: zxq9: everything that is covered by SMOKE
2014-05-25T02:26:34Z p_l: you can technically load more stuff as well, as long as you get SMOKE to play nice
2014-05-25T02:26:54Z stassats`: commonqt is not going to be using smoke forever
2014-05-25T02:27:49Z p_l: oh? Something differing on the horizon, or someone is taking the quixotic path of directly interfacing C++ and CL?
2014-05-25T02:28:08Z stassats`: smoke just sucks
2014-05-25T02:29:04Z nyef: We already know that someone is taking that quixotic path in another context...
2014-05-25T02:29:35Z stassats`: that someone will help commonqt too
2014-05-25T02:30:23Z zxq9: Ah, found it. Not familiar with smoke, though...
2014-05-25T02:31:09Z p_l: nyef: whoever manages to have reliable, full C++ interop with both Itanium and MS ABIs... I'm probably going to find a way to send them a crate of preferred beverage
2014-05-25T02:31:36Z p_l: (that said, I'm looking for something that doesn't need extern "C" glue code)
2014-05-25T02:31:56Z zxq9: An "introspective wrapper" around a C++ library that isn't entirely uniform in implementation doesn't seem that it would be very reliable in some cases...
2014-05-25T02:33:47Z p_l: calling virtuals and such is pretty easy, I can accept extra sharedlibs to instantiate templates (because there's no other way), I gave up when I reached exceptions
2014-05-25T02:35:33Z p_l: arguably, one could autogenerate the wrapper at runtime from DWARF data
2014-05-25T02:39:32Z nicdev: p_l i think this is relevant to your C++ interop statement. http://clang-developers.42468.n3.nabble.com/Refactoring-C-with-Common-Lisp-built-on-the-clang-ASTMatcher-library-td4037738.html
2014-05-25T02:41:27Z p_l: nicdev: it manipulates C++ code, yes, but doesn't necessarily cover interop with existing code (binary). Though yes, it's interesting approach that I have considered at one point (though less refactoring, more libclang as source of knowledge about generated code)
2014-05-25T02:41:40Z nyef: nicdev: That's drmeister's work, so yes, we are aware of it.
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2014-05-25T02:43:38Z p_l: that said, my goal was to directly use binary libraries compiled with GCC&compatibles (thus itanium abi) and MSVC (MS abi). I hope others will fare better :)
2014-05-25T02:44:03Z nyef: One of the exception interop questions I had, actually, was if it made sense to reflect ALL Lisp conditions over to C++, or if one should limit that side of things to pure C++ exceptions and stack unwinding?
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2014-05-25T02:44:40Z p_l: nyef: I don't think I actually cared to promote CL exceptions to C++, though there's a way...
2014-05-25T02:45:15Z p_l: nyef: Itanium ABI actually allows for foreign exceptions, but there's this issue of different handling conditions and C++ exceptions
2014-05-25T02:45:20Z nyef: Yeah, issue there being that C++ exception handling semantics are far, far less flexible than Lisp.
2014-05-25T02:46:05Z p_l: nyef: and that C++ exceptions unwind stack automatically, iirc
2014-05-25T02:46:34Z nyef: That'd be the less-flexible semantic that I had in mind, yes.
2014-05-25T02:47:10Z p_l: that said, if you specify "special" condition handling protocol for callbacks (as they are the only place that would send conditions to C++, unless we use an embeddable implementation), things should be simple
2014-05-25T02:47:51Z p_l: also, at least with IA64 ABI (so GCC) we can put an unwound condition into C++ so that it can bubble back to lisp caller
2014-05-25T02:48:09Z p_l: and well, Windows has systemwide exceptions
2014-05-25T02:50:10Z nyef: For SBCL/Win32 I went to a lot of trouble to try and get SEH interop working.
2014-05-25T02:50:17Z nyef: At least at a basic level.
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2014-05-25T03:41:11Z drmeister ears are burning
2014-05-25T03:42:06Z p_l: hehehe
2014-05-25T03:44:05Z drmeister: What stands between me and getting this damn thing working with Boehm and then MPS garbage collection is a WeakKeyHashTable.
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2014-05-25T03:46:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-05-25T03:46:42Z JuanDaugherty: yello beach
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2014-05-25T05:49:51Z drmeister: You can have more than one CATCH/THROW or BLOCK/RETURN-FROM in "flight" at a time - correct?
2014-05-25T05:50:50Z drmeister: The Boehm GC doesn't see pointers in C++ exceptions when they are in flight.   I currently use C++ exceptions for THROW and RETURN-FROM and I pass pointers within them to be caught by CATCH and BLOCK respectively.
2014-05-25T05:52:19Z drmeister: Does anyone have any recommendations on other ways to deal with those?    I can't stick them in global variables because I believe that there can be more than one CATCH/THROW or BLOCK/RETURN-FROM active at a time if an intermediate UNWIND-PROTECT throws a THROW or RETURN-FROM.
2014-05-25T05:52:39Z drmeister: Maybe I can push them onto and pop them off of a stack?
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2014-05-25T06:05:19Z jsnell: drmeister: I don't think that's correct. what would it mean for two non local exits to be "in flight" at the same time?
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2014-05-25T06:07:36Z Bike: something like (block foo (unwind-protect (return-from foo) (block bar (return-from bar)))) i guess
2014-05-25T06:08:01Z jsnell: no, I'm asking what it'd *mean*
2014-05-25T06:08:19Z jsnell: you need to be returning control to one of those two places, you can't return it to both
2014-05-25T06:09:21Z Bike: the return-from bar executes, returns to the block, and then the inner return returns to foo
2014-05-25T06:10:47Z jsnell: ah, multiple in that sense. right
2014-05-25T06:13:39Z jsnell: I wonder if the clhs could have addressed this issue at all less usefully :-) "If a non-local exit occurs during execution of cleanup-forms, no special action is taken."
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2014-05-25T06:15:09Z Bike: that's just saying that in (block foo (unwind-protect (return-from foo) (return-from foo) (print "foo"))) nothing is printed
2014-05-25T06:17:36Z jsnell: it could say that, or it could be saying something else, since we have no idea of what's "special" and what's not
2014-05-25T06:18:11Z Bike: executing the protected forms before the return.
2014-05-25T06:19:28Z jsnell: yes, it could mean that. it could equally well mean that no nlx happens since the nlx is something special
2014-05-25T06:20:12Z Bike: i'm just reading this in terms of the unwind-protect context
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2014-05-25T07:27:34Z pjb: minion: memo for Pixel_Outlaw: CL is the antithesis of bitrot: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html
2014-05-25T07:27:34Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Pixel_Outlaw when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-05-25T07:28:00Z pjb: It's incredible how dumb people can be…
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2014-05-25T08:22:27Z beach: pjb: I agree.  But what prompted you to say it this time?
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2014-05-25T09:46:55Z jusss: (defun f (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) ;in elisp  (f 9) return (lambda y (+ x y)) why not (+ 9 y) ?
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2014-05-25T09:59:29Z edgar-rft: juss: try (defun f (x) `(lambda (y) (+ ,x y)))
2014-05-25T10:00:07Z edgar-rft: #lisp is for Common Lisp, #emacs is for elisp :-)
2014-05-25T10:01:20Z jusss: sorry
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2014-05-25T10:02:45Z edgar-rft: in your definition above the x is evaluated at the time when the function is defined, not when (f 9) is evaluated
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2014-05-25T10:05:30Z jusss: edgar-rft: its same
2014-05-25T10:07:08Z edgar-rft: with me here (emacs 24.3.1) it works...
2014-05-25T10:07:20Z edgar-rft: (f 9) => (lambda (y) (+ 9 y))
2014-05-25T10:08:26Z jusss: 22.3.1
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2014-05-25T10:08:56Z edgar-rft: just a moment please...
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2014-05-25T10:10:55Z edgar-rft: here's the same thing without backquote:
2014-05-25T10:10:59Z edgar-rft: (defun f (x) (list 'lambda (list 'y) (list '+ x 'y)))
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2014-05-25T11:16:22Z |3b|: clhs `
2014-05-25T11:16:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm
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2014-05-25T11:38:00Z vanila: http://medias.ircam.fr/x03b42f
2014-05-25T11:38:28Z vanila: this guy is making a twitter bot in lisp that stops people going on witch hunts
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2014-05-25T11:43:26Z vanila: lisp saving the world
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2014-05-25T11:51:04Z Xach: that guy
2014-05-25T11:52:33Z nyef: Xach: Good morning.
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2014-05-25T12:21:45Z vanila: lol
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2014-05-25T12:33:30Z otwieracz: Hi.
2014-05-25T12:33:39Z otwieracz: You have any ideas how to sign message in CL?
2014-05-25T12:33:47Z otwieracz: I need some pub/priv key infrasturcture.
2014-05-25T12:34:01Z otwieracz: And, unfortunately, Ironclad is really capable.
2014-05-25T12:35:31Z nyef: ... (run-program "gpg" ...)?
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2014-05-25T12:35:48Z nyef: (Wait, I *NEVER* advocate using RUN-PROGRAM. Nevermind.)
2014-05-25T12:36:14Z otwieracz: but I'm afraid it's the only one possible way?
2014-05-25T12:37:04Z nyef: I have no idea if it is, but I do know that some people have some way to do PKI stuff from Lisp. It might or might not involve run-program.
2014-05-25T12:37:52Z nyef: ISTR that ASDF-INSTALL (which is going back a ways) used to use RUN-PROGRAM and gpg, but nobody uses ASDF-INSTALL anymore (and for good reason).
2014-05-25T12:40:47Z otwieracz: I I don't see anything else…
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2014-05-25T12:53:12Z Krystof: ironclad has some support for PKI, I think
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2014-05-25T12:55:04Z Xach: otwieracz: The openpgp spec explains how to do it. I think ironclad can provide some of the support, but I don't think it can create a pgp signing packet for you.
2014-05-25T12:55:13Z Xach: It is not difficult but there are several parts to do it.
2014-05-25T12:55:24Z otwieracz: Xach: I was thinking about DSA.
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2014-05-25T12:57:27Z Xach: otwieracz: Who will verify the integrity of the signatures?
2014-05-25T12:57:46Z otwieracz: Hm. You mean?
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2014-05-25T12:58:54Z Xach: I mean who is participating in your communication with signed messages?
2014-05-25T13:01:20Z stassats`: Bob
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2014-05-25T13:05:28Z otwieracz: :)
2014-05-25T13:05:53Z otwieracz: Xach: Generally, me. But, it to me completely compatibile.
2014-05-25T13:06:20Z stassats`: so, were you able to sign things with dsa?
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2014-05-25T13:33:12Z Fare: you can use run-program and openssl for your pki needs. If you have any trust in openssl
2014-05-25T13:36:57Z dlowe: or gnutls-bin :D
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2014-05-25T13:55:54Z dim: hi
2014-05-25T13:56:07Z dim: is there a known CL lib supporting NTLM http auth?
2014-05-25T13:56:24Z dim: (proxying the query for someone else, and not finding any such lib myself)
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2014-05-25T13:58:00Z Xach: dim: i don't know of one, but I have heard there's a proxy program that translates local simple auth into ntlm auth.
2014-05-25T13:58:08Z Xach digs
2014-05-25T13:58:47Z dim: oh that would be a way to do it, I guess (not my use case so I can't speak for that for real)
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2014-05-25T14:01:35Z dim: I can find things in Google btw, such as http://cntlm.sourceforge.net/
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2014-05-25T14:06:41Z Xach: that's the one someone suggested to me
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2014-05-25T14:14:34Z dim: ok, thanks
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2014-05-25T14:16:17Z otwieracz: Hmm.
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2014-05-25T14:18:43Z otwieracz: How to read binary file in lisp?
2014-05-25T14:18:52Z otwieracz: (and write)
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2014-05-25T14:19:28Z stassats`: clhs w-o-f
2014-05-25T14:19:29Z specbot: with-open-file: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm
2014-05-25T14:19:45Z otwieracz: OK, but how to load it into var correctly?
2014-05-25T14:21:13Z stassats`: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/files-and-file-io.html
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2014-05-25T14:22:57Z stassats`: i would say that its starting with open and close is misleading if you are not reading it through
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2014-05-25T16:00:57Z Xach: reb: do you know what's up with the failures at http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-test-grid/ql/qlalpha-2014-05-24-diff.html ?
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2014-05-25T16:12:57Z vanila: what's a good beginners guide to GC?
2014-05-25T16:13:22Z Bike: implementing it?
2014-05-25T16:13:23Z p_l: http://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/people/staff/rej/gc.html#Book
2014-05-25T16:13:31Z p_l: then implement a GC
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2014-05-25T16:14:06Z vanila: which GC should I implement
2014-05-25T16:14:21Z vanila: thanks for the page
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2014-05-25T16:14:56Z nyef: Choice of GC to implement is very situational.
2014-05-25T16:15:35Z v0|d: vanila: OCaml book is OK.
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2014-05-25T16:16:59Z vanila: I'm making a lisp implementation to write a hobby OS in, trying to find out what GC would work well
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2014-05-25T16:18:28Z nyef: One of the considerations is your own skill level. You might want to start with a simple two-space stop-and-copy collector, and once you understand that and have it working move on to more complex designs.
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2014-05-25T16:19:44Z vanila: yeah I should definitely start with that, so that I can compare against it to see improvements later
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2014-05-25T20:59:32Z Xach: do you feel the excitement?
2014-05-25T21:01:31Z nyef: The excitement of... an impending SBCL release for which we don't know if we have sufficient testing?
2014-05-25T21:02:45Z stassats`: if people don't test enough, they deserve to get broken things
2014-05-25T21:03:12Z nyef: True enough.
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2014-05-25T21:05:43Z prxq: nyef: when is the release?
2014-05-25T21:06:11Z prxq is going to pipe a ton of code through git HEAD tomorrow
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2014-05-25T21:06:41Z nyef: That's more a Krystof question, really.
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2014-05-25T21:36:28Z Krystof: prxq: not tomorrow
2014-05-25T21:36:33Z Krystof: your reports would be gratefully received
2014-05-25T21:37:13Z Krystof: release will be when I can get stable internet access and time while attending a workshop of musicologists specializing in repertoire of the 15th-17th century
2014-05-25T21:38:00Z stassats`: there is no internet in the 15th century, tough luck
2014-05-25T21:38:25Z ehu: heh
2014-05-25T21:39:11Z Krystof: but there has always been the Internet
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2014-05-25T21:39:53Z nyef: Just because humans hadn't discovered the Internet doesn't mean it didn't already exist, huh?
2014-05-25T21:41:40Z heddwch: That must be a small workshop
2014-05-25T21:45:05Z nyef: Probably larger than your average SBCL hacker's get-together.
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2014-05-25T21:46:06Z Krystof: heddwch: about 20 people
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2014-05-25T21:46:49Z nyef: So, several times larger.
2014-05-25T21:48:39Z prxq: btw, does anyone here have definite thought on what he/she wants common-lisp.net to be?
2014-05-25T21:49:12Z prxq: Krystof: I will generate noises on #sbcl however it goes
2014-05-25T21:49:34Z v0|d: prxq: pseude random cl project generator.
2014-05-25T21:49:41Z v0|d: prxq: prclpg
2014-05-25T21:49:52Z Krystof: prxq: thank you
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2014-05-25T21:53:49Z prxq: eu-wahl mööp des tages: http://www.lawblog.de/index.php/archives/2014/05/25/bekennender-doppelwaehler/
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2014-05-25T21:54:31Z Xach: woop des wat
2014-05-25T21:54:35Z prxq: sorry, wrong chan
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2014-05-25T22:12:38Z heddwch: Krystof: ah :)
2014-05-25T22:12:41Z heddwch: prxq: Working
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2014-05-25T22:38:18Z nydel: is there a correct way to include &optional and &key in the same lambda list when using defun?
2014-05-25T22:38:54Z nydel: for example there is one non-key variable i want to be optional and have its existence determine the course of the function
2014-05-25T22:39:13Z nydel: should i do that with methods instead or can i somehow use &optional and &key
2014-05-25T22:39:24Z Bike: use a dynamic variable maybe
2014-05-25T22:39:32Z Bike: but &optional is usually bad and in concert with &key it is terrible
2014-05-25T22:40:23Z stassats`: optional goes first
2014-05-25T22:40:44Z nydel: the lambda list is (&optional value &key all of the keys)
2014-05-25T22:40:54Z stassats`: if you have two optionals before &key, you're going to have a bad time
2014-05-25T22:41:34Z nightfly: Why not just make your optional argument into a keyword argument?
2014-05-25T22:42:35Z nydel: i'm logging events as the occur with this function, i want (log '(event description)) to push the event and print the last 10 entries in the log to stdout
2014-05-25T22:42:46Z nydel: and (log) to skip the pushing an event
2014-05-25T22:43:02Z nydel: it's just a bit more cumbersome to do (log :event '(event description))
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2014-05-25T22:48:47Z drewc: SBCL even gives a warning for (&optional value &key all) IIRC
2014-05-25T22:49:03Z nydel: that's what made me ask
2014-05-25T22:49:05Z nyef: A style-warning, I hope?
2014-05-25T22:49:19Z nydel: yeah style
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2014-05-25T22:55:23Z stassats`: it's annoying, i want to shoot myself in the foot!
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2014-05-25T23:02:52Z drewc: I actually do have a kitten .... and my name starts with #\D ... and she awaits on occasion...
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2014-05-25T23:16:47Z _death: wish I had a kitten
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2014-05-25T23:18:05Z _death: instead I got Binky
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2014-05-26T01:14:22Z stassats` just got SBCL working on android-arm
2014-05-26T01:15:31Z chu: Impressive! Congrats.
2014-05-26T01:15:39Z heddwch: :o
2014-05-26T01:15:52Z stassats`: well, it's not impressive if you consider that it was already working on linux-arm
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2014-05-26T01:26:27Z nyef: The really impressive bit comes when you're able to write actual graphical apps in it.
2014-05-26T01:27:25Z stassats`: i need to work with qt 5, but commonqt does not support it yet, and i don't want to use smoke anymore, so i'm waiting for drmeister to release his thing
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2014-05-26T01:27:45Z stassats`: so that i can parse the headers and make better bindings
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2014-05-26T02:11:38Z drmeister: I posed this question yesterday:    The Boehm GC doesn't see pointers within C++ exception classes when they are in flight.   I currently use C++ exceptions for THROW and RETURN-FROM and I pass pointers within them to be caught by CATCH and BLOCK respectively.
2014-05-26T02:12:13Z Zhivago: Well, boehm is conservative in any case -- why are you using it?
2014-05-26T02:12:15Z drmeister: Does anyone have any recommendations on other to deal with pointers within in-flight exceptions?    I can't stick them in global variables because I believe that there can be more than one CATCH/THROW or BLOCK/RETURN-FROM active at a time if an intermediate UNWIND-PROTECT throws a THROW or RETURN-FROM.
2014-05-26T02:12:29Z drmeister: Zhivago: To help me write the MPS interface.
2014-05-26T02:13:06Z drmeister: Reference-counting ran out of gas a couple of days ago - so I incorporated Boehm as a transitional fossil.
2014-05-26T02:13:33Z brucem: drmeister: does Boehm not scan TLS stuff? (I have a suspicion that's the case on OS X from some of my own work)
2014-05-26T02:13:47Z drmeister: What is "TLS stuff"?
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2014-05-26T02:14:03Z Zhivago: Thread Local Storage?
2014-05-26T02:14:09Z p_l: thread local storage
2014-05-26T02:14:49Z drmeister: Ah.   I'm single threaded at the moment.  But it will scan whatever I tell it to scan except in flight exceptions.
2014-05-26T02:15:26Z Zhivago: Any reason to be scanning while exceptions are flying?
2014-05-26T02:15:30Z brucem: drmeister: IIRC, there's TLS in use in libcxxabi impl of exception handling. Not sure about how it is done on Linux or others.
2014-05-26T02:15:33Z drmeister: I use GC_malloc to allocate objects that are scanned and GCd and GC_malloc_uncollectable to allocate roots.
2014-05-26T02:16:10Z drmeister: If it's not allocated with GC_malloc_xxxx it won't be scanned.
2014-05-26T02:16:58Z drmeister: I could GC_malloc_uncollectable the pointers that were in the exception and then GC_free it when the exception is caught.
2014-05-26T02:17:06Z drmeister: Perhaps I could do that...
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2014-05-26T02:18:12Z drmeister: The more general Common Lisp question is can there be multiple CATCH/THROW and BLOCK/RETURN-FROM's in flight at the same time?
2014-05-26T02:18:49Z Zhivago: Well, not as such, since CL lacks threading semantics.
2014-05-26T02:19:08Z nyef: Yes, it's trivial to have an unwind happening within an unwind-protect, for example.
2014-05-26T02:19:53Z nyef: And exit-extent:medium (the version that everybody implements) allows even more fun and games,
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2014-05-26T02:21:18Z drmeister: nyef: I thought UNWIND-PROTECT would complicate things.   It's like beer - "the source of and solution too many of my problems".
2014-05-26T02:21:27Z Zhivago: Well, those can all be integrated into a single effect stack.
2014-05-26T02:22:21Z drmeister: Zhivago: How would I do that with a stack?   When I through the exception, push the exception data onto the stack and when I catch it, pop the exception data off?
2014-05-26T02:22:32Z drmeister: s/through/throw/g
2014-05-26T02:22:51Z drmeister has a head cold.
2014-05-26T02:23:47Z Zhivago: Well, think of unwind-protect as pushing an effect onto a stack.
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2014-05-26T02:24:26Z Zhivago: To get back past the unwind-protect you need to execute the effect it pushed, as well as any pushed after it.
2014-05-26T02:26:04Z Zhivago: I guess the real question is -- do you want to use exceptions to implement this? I suspect not.
2014-05-26T02:27:51Z drmeister: That's part of the question - right now I have them working using exceptions.  In the future I will change it to cleanup/jumps within functions and setjmp/longjmp for between functions.
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2014-05-26T02:33:43Z drmeister: Exceptions work very well with LLVM and interoperate perfectly with C++.
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2014-05-26T03:00:49Z atgreen: drmeister, are you writing a CL front end for LLVM?
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2014-05-26T03:51:30Z drmeister: atgreen: I'm writing a Common Lisp with LLVM as the back end.
2014-05-26T03:51:52Z drmeister: And that interoperates with C++.
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2014-05-26T03:59:49Z atgreen: drmeister: nice. is it going well?
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2014-05-26T04:00:27Z atgreen: many years ago I worked on gcj, which is java front end for GCC, but probably addressed similar issues
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2014-05-26T04:00:46Z atgreen: (garbage collection, interoperability with C++, etc)
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2014-05-26T04:03:46Z drmeister: atgreen: It's moving forward.
2014-05-26T04:03:56Z drmeister: I had a bit of a hiccup a week ago.
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2014-05-26T04:04:51Z drmeister: I'm incorporating the Memory Pool System garbage collector and I was running with reference counting but I couldn't go any further with it.   So I incorporated the Boehm GC.
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2014-05-26T04:05:06Z atgreen: we used Boehm GC also
2014-05-26T04:05:40Z drmeister: I'm just working to move all of the objects with pointers into the Boehm managed memory.
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2014-05-26T04:14:03Z drmeister: Do you have any advice on how to track down problems with Boehm GC?
2014-05-26T04:14:51Z drmeister: My problem appears to be that I'm allocating some objects on the normal heap, they have pointers into the Boehm heap and the pointees are being garbage collected and replaced with other objects.
2014-05-26T04:15:31Z drmeister: I need to identify the objects on the normal heap containing the invalid pointers and move them into the Boehm heap.
2014-05-26T04:15:59Z atgreen: so, this is all about root set management.
2014-05-26T04:16:13Z atgreen: boehm gc can scan your entire heap looking for collectable objects
2014-05-26T04:16:26Z atgreen: or you can manually add pointers to the root set
2014-05-26T04:17:04Z atgreen: I thought boehmgc scanned the entire heap by default
2014-05-26T04:17:14Z atgreen: (it's been a long time since I've looked at this)
2014-05-26T04:17:28Z atgreen: (and we had the benefit of having Hans Boehm help us directly)
2014-05-26T04:17:32Z drmeister: No, just what you allocate with GC_malloc(GCd objects) and GC_malloc_uncollectable(roots)
2014-05-26T04:17:51Z atgreen: hmm.. that's not what I remember.  let me look.
2014-05-26T04:18:30Z drmeister: I suppose you could replace ::new with the Boehm functions - I didn't do that.
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2014-05-26T04:20:26Z atgreen: I'm not sure I understand " I need to identify the objects on the normal heap containing the
2014-05-26T04:20:26Z atgreen: 	    invalid pointers and move them into the Boehm heap."  Don't you just want to add those pointers to the root set?
2014-05-26T04:20:41Z atgreen: or maybe that's what you meant
2014-05-26T04:20:45Z drmeister: But you raise a good point - if I replaced the global "new" with a Boehm version then everything would be allocated with the Boehm allocator.
2014-05-26T04:21:21Z drmeister: So the Memory Pool System garbage collector is a more sophisticated GC than Boehm.   I'm working to implement that.
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2014-05-26T04:21:53Z drmeister: I was using reference counting but I ran into problems with memory cycles.
2014-05-26T04:22:46Z drmeister: So as an intermediate step - I incorporated the Boehm library.   But I'm not just allocating _everything_ with the Boehm allocator, just the objects that will need to be managed by the MPS garbage collector.
2014-05-26T04:23:40Z drmeister: For instance, if I my code uses a std::vector<int>   - I don't use the Boehm allocator for that because the vector contains no pointers.
2014-05-26T04:24:21Z drmeister: But a std::vector<Symbol_sp> will not work because the vector allocates in the regular C++ heap.
2014-05-26T04:24:45Z drmeister: Symbol_sp are my Common Lisp symbols they have a Value slot a Function slot etc.
2014-05-26T04:25:38Z drmeister: I'm not being very clear.
2014-05-26T04:25:44Z drmeister: Hang on - need to think.
2014-05-26T04:27:13Z Zhivago: I've never been a big fan of that approach.
2014-05-26T04:27:33Z drmeister: I need to be a lot more judicious with where I allocate things when I use the MPS library.    Now that I'm incorporating the Boehm library I decided to allocate things with the Boehm library the way I have to for the MPS library.
2014-05-26T04:27:39Z atgreen: Don't forget about the GC_add_roots() function.  This lets you add a region of memory to scan for collectable objects that are part of the root set.
2014-05-26T04:27:40Z Zhivago: Have you considered if it might be nicer to put the symbol-value and symbol-function mappings somewhere together?
2014-05-26T04:27:41Z drmeister: Zhivago: Which approach?
2014-05-26T04:27:59Z Zhivago: Having symbol-value and symbol-function as slots of symbol objects.
2014-05-26T04:28:17Z drmeister: Zhivago: It will have to change when I go to multithreading.
2014-05-26T04:30:09Z drmeister: Right now I just want it working again.
2014-05-26T04:30:32Z drmeister: One quick and dirty way to get it working would be to replace the global new.
2014-05-26T04:30:44Z drmeister: Allocate everything in with the Boehm allocator.
2014-05-26T04:31:19Z drmeister: If that worked then I'd know that I'm still allocating something containing pointers in the regular C++ heap where Boehm can't see it.
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2014-05-26T04:33:45Z drmeister: In MPS you have different memory pools that you allocate in to - and you need to write scanning functions that will scan and fix pointers in the objects within those pools.
2014-05-26T04:33:58Z drmeister: I have a static analyzer that writes all that code.
2014-05-26T04:34:10Z drmeister: I need the Boehm version working to run it. (sigh).
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2014-05-26T04:42:00Z quazimodo: hi everybutty
2014-05-26T04:42:01Z minion: quazimodo, memo from pjb: man ascii # notice how conveniently the codes #o100+ are listed in parallel to the codes #o000
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2014-05-26T04:59:37Z drmeister: I know why I didn't replace the global operator new with a version that allocates using Boehm's GC_MALLOC - it's a bloody pain in the ass because of static initializers trying to "new" things when the Boehm allocator hasn't been initialized.
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2014-05-26T05:07:02Z drmeister: And you can't replace the global operator new - when I do then LLVM objects are allocated in the Boehm heap - it's a disaster (sigh).
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2014-05-26T05:07:21Z drmeister: Well, back to the drawing board with that idea.
2014-05-26T05:07:33Z Bike: #define drmeister_dynamic_new?
2014-05-26T05:08:13Z drmeister: I'll still have to track down every "new XXXX" statement and change it.   That's what I've been doing for the past two days.
2014-05-26T05:08:37Z Bike: at least you could change it to something that lets you change it later if you want, i guess
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2014-05-26T05:10:30Z drmeister: What I've done is define a bunch of template classes and template functions that allocate objects.   So rather than Foo* foo = new Foo(a,b);    I use Foo* foo = gctools::allocateClass<Foo>(a,b);
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2014-05-26T05:11:30Z drmeister: I have different allocator template functions and classes for different purposes (allocate roots, allocate regular classes, allocate CL classes that may need initialization/finalization, allocate classes that are not allowed to move in memory ...).
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2014-05-26T05:12:12Z drmeister: I have a set of these allocator functions/classes for Boehm and a parallel set for MPS.
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2014-05-26T05:13:36Z drmeister: The problem is I am still allocating some things with "new" that should be allocated with gctools::allocateClass<...>(...)   because they contain pointers and when the things that they point to are being garbage collected then those pointers are becoming invalid ---> crash.
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2014-05-26T05:14:50Z drmeister: What I think I'll do is get some sleep and tomorrow comb through the code and examine every damn "new" and std::vector/std::map/std::whatever to make sure they don't allocate objects that contain smart_ptr.
2014-05-26T05:15:06Z heddwch: <atgreen> Don't forget about the GC_add_roots() function.  This lets you add a region of memory to scan for objects that are part of the root set.
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2014-05-26T05:18:08Z drmeister: heddwch: I do that with my gctools::allocateRootClass<XXX>(...)    It invokes GC_MALLOC_UNCOLLECTABLE.   Every ambiguous pointer within it is a root.
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2014-05-26T05:19:11Z drmeister: Let me give you a for-instance - about two hours ago I realized that my generic function Cache class was allocated with new Cache().
2014-05-26T05:19:47Z heddwch: ahh
2014-05-26T05:19:57Z heddwch: Shouldn't have done that ;)
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2014-05-26T05:23:14Z drmeister had to step away for a moment
2014-05-26T05:23:31Z drmeister: Right, every pointer in the Cache was invisible to Boehm.
2014-05-26T05:24:21Z drmeister: So the memory that every pointer in the Cache pointed to was being recycled by Boehm and the Cache pointers pointed to whatever was written into that memory.
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2014-05-26T05:26:08Z drmeister: My code is C++, I do a lot of casting    as in   Symbol_sp s = obj.as<Symbol_O>().    If obj can't be cast to a Symbol an error is thrown.    If the GC replaced what obj was pointing to with something else then it will be caught when that object is cast to a type that it is supposed to cast to but doesn't.
2014-05-26T05:26:15Z heddwch: yea =/ Going to be fun to find all the occurrences to replace, since s/new/newer/'d replace too much.
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2014-05-26T05:28:01Z drmeister: I have to go through the "new" statements one-by-one and figure out which ones are of classes that contain pointers and which ones arent.  That includes inherited pointers and pointers that come in through template programming.
2014-05-26T05:28:28Z drmeister: The good news is that I have 70 Common Lisp source files that I'm compiling to bring Common Lisp back up and I'm getting through 50 of them.
2014-05-26T05:28:48Z drmeister: There may only be one class left that is not being allocated properly within the Boehm space.
2014-05-26T05:28:54Z drmeister: Hope springs eternal.
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2014-05-26T05:29:44Z heddwch: I wish you luck!
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2014-05-26T05:32:15Z drmeister: I wish I had a more systematic way of doing this.   Something like associating a stack trace to every pointer I generate with new - but that would be prohibitively slow.
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2014-05-26T05:50:01Z pjb: drmeister: while developping, it may not be a problem if it was slow, as long as it helps you debug efficiently.
2014-05-26T05:50:09Z pjb: debug and prove it's correct.
2014-05-26T05:50:29Z Bike: he's been complaining about how the extreme slowness has inhibited him for weeks.
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2014-05-26T05:56:27Z leo2007: is there something for deleting from a list the first occurrence of an element?
2014-05-26T05:57:02Z Bike: remove :count
2014-05-26T05:57:58Z leo2007: Bike: thanks
2014-05-26T05:58:09Z leo2007: i know there must be something
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2014-05-26T05:59:04Z heddwch: wth is that name?
2014-05-26T05:59:19Z drmeister: I'm thinking telemetry - write out to a file every address involved in a "placement new" along with the first 7 call return values of the stack trace.  That would generate a huge amount of data but when it crashed I could look up the pointer that has become invalid and see where it was allocated.
2014-05-26T05:59:43Z Bike: what name?
2014-05-26T05:59:48Z heddwch: tinyblak
2014-05-26T06:00:14Z drmeister: I'm going to sleep on that.
2014-05-26T06:00:17Z drmeister: 'night all
2014-05-26T06:00:32Z heddwch: night drmeister
2014-05-26T06:01:31Z Quadrescence: leo2007, don't listen to Bike, this is infinitely clearer and more readable http://paste.lisp.org/display/142698
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2014-05-26T06:02:03Z Bike: damn i'm owned
2014-05-26T06:02:12Z Quadrescence: sry Bike
2014-05-26T06:02:59Z Shinmera: In CCL and Clisp a defpackage automatically :use s the common-lisp package. Is there a way to avoid this from happening? I need to create a package without any symbols in it at first.
2014-05-26T06:02:59Z heddwch: Since it's the first of multiple occurrences, there's also http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_dup.htm
2014-05-26T06:04:03Z Bike: Shinmera: (:use)
2014-05-26T06:04:21Z Shinmera: Bike: ah, it's that simple? Thanks a bunch.
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2014-05-26T07:03:50Z joe-w-bimedina: How can I convert this statement, precisely to Lisp...(int)(2.0 * rand() / double(RAND_MAX));
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2014-05-26T07:09:13Z Zhivago: That statement isn't precise -- it is significantly implementation dependent.
2014-05-26T07:09:29Z Zhivago: However, have a look at random and floor.
2014-05-26T07:09:54Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm using g++, for my my environment
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2014-05-26T07:11:45Z joe-w-bimedina: I've been at this awhile , there any info I can give you about my environment to get you to help me convert it...I'm on SBCL but I would like the result to be implementation independent
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2014-05-26T07:13:32Z Zhivago: Look up FLOOR and RANDOM.
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2014-05-26T07:13:59Z Zhivago: When you've done that, ask an intelligent question about the thing that surprises you most.
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2014-05-26T07:15:34Z joe-w-bimedina: trying it now...exactly does the fact that FLOOR "produce(s) a quotient that has been truncated toward negative infinity" stand in for the  RAND_MAX part
2014-05-26T07:16:12Z Zhivago: I'm sorry, but that does not appear to be English.
2014-05-26T07:17:40Z ck_ memorizes "ask an intelligent question about the thing that surprises you most"
2014-05-26T07:17:52Z ck_: great instruction
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2014-05-26T07:18:52Z joe-w-bimedina: I meant, trying it now, pertaining to when u said "When you've done that" and..."exactly" pertaining to when u said "When you've done that, ask an intelligent question about the thing that surprises you most.", Then the ? -> does the fact that FLOOR "produce(s) a quotient that has been truncated toward negative infinity" stand in for the  RAND_MAX part
2014-05-26T07:19:38Z Zhivago: 'does the fact that FLOOR "produce(s) a quotient that has been truncated toward negative infinity" stand in for the  RAND_MAX part' seems to be gibberish.
2014-05-26T07:20:05Z leo2007: Quadrescence: are you joking?
2014-05-26T07:20:14Z Quadrescence: am i
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2014-05-26T07:21:14Z leo2007: how is your solution better than (remove .. :count 1)?
2014-05-26T07:21:55Z joe-w-bimedina: when u add RAND_MAX  to 5 for instance you get RAND_MAX everytime, I thought the nature of RAND_MAX to simulate a truncation toward neg. inf
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2014-05-26T07:23:18Z Zhivago: joe: You are wrong. RAND_MAX + 5 is not RAND_MAX. Also, please learn how to spell "you".
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2014-05-26T07:24:11Z joe-w-bimedina: I just am trying to find a way to run a function that will produce either a 1 or a 0 ..completely randomly can you:) help me
2014-05-26T07:24:28Z Zhivago: joe: What does RANDOM do in CL/
2014-05-26T07:24:53Z joe-w-bimedina: running (random 1) always gives 0, though
2014-05-26T07:25:27Z Zhivago: joe: What does the 1 mean in (random 1)?
2014-05-26T07:26:39Z joe-w-bimedina: ok got it, so I bump it up to (random 2)...thanks alot, I do appreciate it
2014-05-26T07:26:52Z Zhivago: Then learn how to answer questions and how to read.
2014-05-26T07:27:25Z joe-w-bimedina: will do ,  A very good day to you
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2014-05-26T07:28:10Z leo2007: Quadrescence: I am curious. it seems your paste is doing part of the work remove does.
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2014-05-26T07:50:52Z pjb: minion: memo for jusss: see http://paste.lisp.org/+323X
2014-05-26T07:50:52Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jusss when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-05-26T07:57:46Z pjb: drmeister: Mixing two different garbage collectors in the same image doesn't strike me as a good idea.  Why do you use BoehmGC if you already have MPS?
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2014-05-26T07:59:16Z pjb: drmeister: have you read http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html ?  block/return and catch/throw are equivalent (and to tagbody/go).
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2014-05-26T07:59:57Z pjb: Of course in implementing one with the other, you have to deal with the lexical vs. dynamic conversion, so you may want to implement them separately, but that's an implementation detail.
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2014-05-26T10:46:23Z mrSpec: Hello!
2014-05-26T10:46:53Z mrSpec: I'd like to ask about SLIME & docstrings, as I dont like the way they are indeted. http://paste.lisp.org/display/142703
2014-05-26T10:47:13Z mrSpec: Is there any way to change docstring indentation?
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2014-05-26T11:06:40Z joe-w-bimedina: I have a defmacro that isn't working for me.  I'm getting "deleting unreachable code" error when calling it inside a function. I need to be able to call it inside any function. I wrote some details in a Gist.  Can someone help me with it. https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/217398cfef0644083ac9
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2014-05-26T11:11:29Z splittist: joe-w-bimedina: you have three branches to your cond, but the first two are exhaustive, aren't they?
2014-05-26T11:12:16Z joe-w-bimedina: what do you mean by exhaustive?
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2014-05-26T11:13:31Z splittist: either you have specified the file (first branch) or you haven't (second branch), so there's nothing for the default clause to do.
2014-05-26T11:14:01Z splittist: Also, look at the ~( format directive.
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2014-05-26T11:17:23Z joe-w-bimedina: ok, I took of the nil and the issue persists.  What should I do with the format function?
2014-05-26T11:17:40Z joe-w-bimedina: took off the (t nil) I mean
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2014-05-26T11:19:46Z splittist: joe-w-bimedina: look at what you're doing when you defun x. You are asking the macro to expand with to-file being a string. So when the compiler looks at the cond, it /already knows/ that the string isn't eq to nil (or null).
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2014-05-26T11:20:41Z joe-w-bimedina: so how do I fix it?
2014-05-26T11:20:45Z splittist: joe-w-bimedina: and what's wrong with getting 'deleting unreachable code' when you don't want all the code to be run?
2014-05-26T11:21:31Z joe-w-bimedina: Is it ok to get that error? I'm writing a professional library btw.
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2014-05-26T11:24:09Z splittist: It's not an error, it's a note. If you know why it's happening then it's OK. It is noted because more often than not it's a signal you don't know what you're doing.
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2014-05-26T11:26:01Z joe-w-bimedina: I'd rather not have that there, it makes the code look ugly.  Can you show me how to write this macro without getting the note. It's just supposed to print matrix data to a file when the to-file key is present and to the console otherwise.
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2014-05-26T11:28:14Z splittist: joe-w-bimedina: why is it a macro?
2014-05-26T11:28:46Z joe-w-bimedina: I thought macros were supposed to be faster
2014-05-26T11:29:17Z joe-w-bimedina: It can be a defun
2014-05-26T11:29:47Z joe-w-bimedina: I'd prefer macro though for asthetic reasons
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2014-05-26T11:30:46Z |3b|: macros are supposed to be different evaluation rules
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2014-05-26T11:31:04Z |3b|: that can allow them to be faster in some situations, but doesn't make them faster automatically
2014-05-26T11:31:10Z rszeno: in your code what you gain with macro you lose with format
2014-05-26T11:31:17Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: macros produce in-line code, which is much much slower than code in the instruction cache!
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2014-05-26T11:32:10Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: the only case where macros could produce faster code, is if you can evaluate it while compiling.  So it makes the program much much slower to compile.
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2014-05-26T11:32:49Z joe-w-bimedina: Ok...If in this case a defun is better, I'll write it as that.
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2014-05-26T11:33:23Z |3b|: for macros that don't need special evaluation rules, and just expand everything inline, a normal function is better, since you can FUNCALL or APPLY it
2014-05-26T11:34:36Z joe-w-bimedina: Thanks for the info
2014-05-26T11:34:46Z |3b|: for the rare cases where function call overhead is significant or type propagation would allow it to be significantly faster, you can declare the function INLINE
2014-05-26T11:34:47Z rszeno: and change format
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2014-05-26T11:35:30Z joe-w-bimedina: to what?
2014-05-26T11:35:45Z |3b|: opening a file and calling format a bunch of times are probably much slower than any benefit you would get from using a macro or inlining though
2014-05-26T11:36:08Z rszeno: to fewer, use ~{ for example
2014-05-26T11:36:50Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm new to the advanced format stuff, can I have an example?
2014-05-26T11:37:15Z |3b| would probably just use PRINT there
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2014-05-26T11:37:46Z |3b|: actually, i guess PRINT adds a newline, so not PRINT
2014-05-26T11:38:16Z joe-w-bimedina: for both the first and the second conditionals?...would princ go into the file
2014-05-26T11:38:19Z joe-w-bimedina: ?
2014-05-26T11:38:54Z |3b| would probably pass a stream to the function rather than a filename
2014-05-26T11:39:25Z |3b|: or stream designator
2014-05-26T11:39:49Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm new to all this stuff,  Can you show me how a professional would write this?
2014-05-26T11:40:16Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: read the sources of maxima?
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2014-05-26T11:40:44Z joe-w-bimedina: what is maxima
2014-05-26T11:40:57Z pjb: a professionnal computer algebra system.
2014-05-26T11:40:59Z |3b| would probably also include something in the name that specifies it only works on 4x2 matrices, since that is a pretty odd limitation
2014-05-26T11:41:08Z |3b|: or make it work on arbitrary sized matricez
2014-05-26T11:41:11Z |3b|: *matrices
2014-05-26T11:41:36Z |3b|: also spell out matrix
2014-05-26T11:42:00Z pjb: Use (array-dimension matrix 0) and (array-dimension matrix 1) for the bounds.
2014-05-26T11:42:08Z joe-w-bimedina: this is just a simplification, the real code uses CFFI functions, so the size thing is taken care of there
2014-05-26T11:42:55Z |3b|: and don't use tab characters to indent code
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2014-05-26T11:43:44Z pjb: yes, professionals configure emacs to only use spaces to indet.
2014-05-26T11:44:30Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks for the tip, what variable is that
2014-05-26T11:44:49Z rszeno: indent-tabs-mode: nil
2014-05-26T11:45:13Z joe-w-bimedina: I appreciate that
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2014-05-26T11:48:16Z joe-w-bimedina: so  this is right?  (setf indent-tabs-mode: nil) I didn't notice any change
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2014-05-26T11:48:40Z pjb: (setf indent-tabs-mode nil)
2014-05-26T11:48:50Z pjb: or M-x customize-variable RET indent-tabs-mode RET
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2014-05-26T11:49:58Z rszeno: the ':' is if you use file variables. Anyway you need M-x untabify to remove existing tabs
2014-05-26T11:53:18Z rszeno: is a global variable and will change settings for all languages
2014-05-26T11:53:44Z joe-w-bimedina: Thanks for all the info, I guess pros use it so really long code doesn't get out of hand
2014-05-26T11:55:05Z |3b|: mostly because people can't agree how a tab character should be displayed, and CL indents by context rather than fixed multiple of some number of spaces, so you end up with mixed tab+space chars, so indentation breaks when you change displayed size
2014-05-26T11:55:39Z |3b|: (not that it works all that well even when using languages where most things indent by some fixed multiple)
2014-05-26T11:55:47Z joe-w-bimedina: thats good to know
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2014-05-26T11:59:59Z alchemis7: Is there any way to setq `t' on emacs variable `lexical-binging' at startup time?
2014-05-26T12:00:44Z alchemis7: (setq lexical-binding t) on .emacs doesn't work.
2014-05-26T12:02:25Z rszeno: what is lexical-binding?
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2014-05-26T12:02:41Z H4ns: and it is a topic for #emacs anyway
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2014-05-26T12:05:41Z alchemis7: H4ns: sorry, anyway after emacs startup, (setq-default lexical-binding t) is only way to set globally.
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2014-05-26T13:38:56Z dim: Krystof: I have a use case for the pgloader/SBCL/GC problem!
2014-05-26T13:39:07Z dim: sending you an email
2014-05-26T13:39:19Z dim: not a use case, sorry, a test case that enters ldb each time
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2014-05-26T14:04:59Z drmeister: pjb: I don't have two garbage collectors in the same image.   They are selected through a preprocessor define.
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2014-05-26T14:06:51Z drmeister: minion:help
2014-05-26T14:06:57Z drmeister: minion: help
2014-05-26T14:06:57Z minion: There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
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2014-05-26T14:10:20Z drmeister: minion: memo for pjb: I don't have the Boehm GC and MPS GC running in the same image.   They are controlled by preprocessor switches (USE_REFCOUNT, USE_BOEHM, USE_MPS).   The MPS garbage collector (exact on heap/conservative on stack) needs lots of information about where pointers are in every GC managed object.  That info is generated by my static analyzer.  Boehm doesn't need that information but is conservative
2014-05-26T14:10:20Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pjb when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-05-26T14:10:20Z drmeister: , non-copying (as you know).
2014-05-26T14:11:39Z pjb: I see.
2014-05-26T14:11:39Z minion: pjb, memo from drmeister: I don't have the Boehm GC and MPS GC running in the same image.   They are controlled by preprocessor switches (USE_REFCOUNT, USE_BOEHM, USE_MPS).   The MPS garbage collector (exact on heap/conservative on stack) needs lots of information about where pointers are in every GC managed object.  That info is generated by my static analyzer.  Boehm doesn't need that information but is conservative
2014-05-26T14:11:56Z drmeister: What he said.
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2014-05-26T14:23:11Z dim: I can't seem to get any meaningfull information from M-x slime-sprof-browser using SBCL and a loading thread that runs for 22s
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2014-05-26T14:33:10Z Xach tests sbcl git head with all of quicklisp
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2014-05-26T14:34:29Z dim should probably learn how to make a pgloader/tests package and have ASDF know how to run tests and check they pass
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2014-05-26T14:54:09Z |3b|: dim: did you do M-x slime-sprof-start before and M-x slime-sprof-stop after running the test?
2014-05-26T14:54:20Z |3b|: (or both during with a wait in between)
2014-05-26T14:54:53Z dim: yeah I did
2014-05-26T14:55:20Z dim: meanwhile I just found what I needed to change to get back to the level I wanted
2014-05-26T14:55:35Z dim: 22s -> 14s load time with a simple enough test
2014-05-26T14:55:48Z dim: some logs are not cheap to send over
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2014-05-26T14:56:18Z |3b|: hmm, would expect it to work then, though i seem to recall hearing of sprof behaving differently on osx
2014-05-26T14:57:04Z dim: oh, maybe it's an osx issue
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2014-05-26T15:00:55Z dim: damn, the bug I fix allows SBCL to just load that data without glitch
2014-05-26T15:01:01Z dim: my GC test case is no more
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2014-05-26T15:45:38Z puchacz: hi, I can't find a function like find-max-item-no-bigger-than in cl-containers
2014-05-26T15:46:03Z puchacz: it feels like it is a natural thing for search trees
2014-05-26T15:46:25Z puchacz: or find-max-item-no-bigger-or-equal-than
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2014-05-26T15:46:40Z puchacz: maybe there is another library that provide them, do you know of any?
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2014-05-26T15:50:32Z splittist: puchacz: what are the semantics you want?
2014-05-26T15:51:18Z puchacz: splitlist: say I have a tree, and ask for (find-max-item-no-bigger-or-equal-than 8 tree)
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2014-05-26T15:51:36Z puchacz: if there is a node with key = 8, return it
2014-05-26T15:51:59Z puchacz: otherwise, if there are nodes with keys smaller than 8, return the biggest
2014-05-26T15:52:05Z puchacz: otherwise return nil
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2014-05-26T15:53:13Z puchacz: search tree should be able to return it without churning data too much
2014-05-26T15:53:23Z samebchase: puchacz: http://nklein.com/software/track-best-library/ ??
2014-05-26T15:53:53Z splittist: can there be more than one node with a key of 8?
2014-05-26T15:54:10Z puchacz: splittist: no
2014-05-26T15:54:19Z puchacz: samebchase: looking
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2014-05-26T16:07:00Z Krystof: dim: don't send me mail, send the mailing list mail!
2014-05-26T16:07:53Z dim: oh, yeah, didn't subscribe etc (bad excuses)
2014-05-26T16:08:04Z dim: will do
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2014-05-26T16:08:20Z dim is subscribed to a few mailing lists too many already
2014-05-26T16:08:32Z dim: but only lagging 31683 emails in those
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2014-05-26T16:12:26Z prxq: dim: do you know gmane?
2014-05-26T16:13:17Z dim: yeah, I also have some nntp groups and gmane things
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2014-05-26T16:17:05Z puchacz: fyi, the functionality I wanted is in :trees
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2014-05-26T16:25:21Z krrrcks: hm. i have a very "strange" problem with quicklisp: I want to use a docker container (something similar to lxc); in that container I try to (ql:quickload ..) some libraries. They get downloaded but it fails with "Error Component "..." not found". If I ssh to such a container it works without any problems.
2014-05-26T16:25:30Z krrrcks: Any idea how I can "debug" this problem?
2014-05-26T16:25:36Z krrrcks: I am completely stuck with that.
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2014-05-26T16:25:57Z Bike: probably something wacky with asdf lookups
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2014-05-26T16:26:29Z pjb: Perhaps a problem of user account used with the docker, or the environment that is different?
2014-05-26T16:27:57Z krrrcks: hm. i use the same account "sudo -u ubuntu" vs. "ssh -l ubuntu". Only difference I can imagine is a missing tty/pty with the docker command.
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2014-05-26T16:28:35Z krrrcks: hm.
2014-05-26T16:29:53Z krrrcks: ahhhh... I put the quickload load code in a file startup.lisp ... There lies the problem I suppose.
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2014-05-26T16:31:15Z krrrcks: Sorry for the noise; I have to dig into that file and possible problems.
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2014-05-26T16:35:30Z effy: does someone has talks or podcasts concerning common lisp (or maybe lisp in general) to recommend
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2014-05-26T16:36:42Z krrrcks: effy: Here is a playlist for youtube: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLakpda32F-TiW-geeQbmQL6Bs168XfzQo
2014-05-26T16:36:54Z krrrcks: effy: but I did not check every vid on that list ;)
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2014-05-26T16:38:00Z effy: krrrcks: gonna take a look at that, thanks
2014-05-26T16:39:53Z effy: the content is kind of random though, one episode of the lecture on sicp, some text to speech propaganda, a song ..
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2014-05-26T16:59:33Z krrrcks: hm. the quicklisp problem is getting worse: now the "startup.lisp" snippet can quickload "some" libs but then fails during the process: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142704
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2014-05-26T17:02:03Z krrrcks: When on the REPL I take the "retry loading" option (several times) everything gets loaded and it works. very strange. :/
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2014-05-26T18:14:46Z krrrcks: Hm. I think I found the problem: With newest quicklisp and a local-project something breaks.
2014-05-26T18:15:27Z Xach: What lisp is that?
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2014-05-26T18:17:01Z krrrcks: Xach: Version 1.9-dev-r15611M-trunk  (LinuxX8664)
2014-05-26T18:17:05Z krrrcks: ccl
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2014-05-26T18:18:26Z krrrcks: Xach: I got a fresh machine with ubuntu 14.04, got ccl, quicklisp; created a file "quicklisp/local-projects/foo.asd" with (asdf:defsystem #:foo :depends-on (:fiveam)), register the local projects, and then the quickload fails. I'll paste the message.,
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2014-05-26T18:23:38Z Xach: I want to know more
2014-05-26T18:23:53Z krrrcks: Xach: Here is my paste: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142707
2014-05-26T18:25:22Z Xach: krrrcks: weird.
2014-05-26T18:25:47Z Xach: krrrcks: what do you get from (ql:where-is-system "fiveam")?
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2014-05-26T18:26:52Z krrrcks: Xach: After the error?
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2014-05-26T18:27:20Z Xach: Any time.
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2014-05-26T18:28:07Z krrrcks: after I aborted the load, it gives: #P"/home/ubuntu/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/fiveam-1.2/"
2014-05-26T18:28:35Z krrrcks: It's there; if I try to ql my "foo" I do not get an error.
2014-05-26T18:29:01Z krrrcks: I have to uninstall it to reproduce the error. Only the first loading/download produces the error
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2014-05-26T18:34:29Z krrrcks: Xach: With SBCL the problem does not occur.
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2014-05-26T18:35:06Z Xach: krrrcks: oh. hmm.
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2014-05-26T18:37:42Z krrrcks: Xach: ASDF's version on my SBCL 1.1.18 is 3.0.2; ASDF's version on my CCL is 2.26.
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2014-05-26T18:40:56Z krrrcks: I'll pack up work and travel home; but I'll be back later; perhaps I can help somehow.
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2014-05-26T18:53:29Z stassats`: totally going to use glyphs, no more verbosity
2014-05-26T18:55:13Z eudoxia: GPLv3
2014-05-26T18:56:05Z stassats`: and that's the only thing that stood out?
2014-05-26T18:56:45Z eudoxia: it limits its usefulness
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2014-05-26T18:59:52Z pjb: eudoxia: only of people who don't want to fight for users' freedom.
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2014-05-26T19:00:08Z pjb: it maximalize usefulness to end users.
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2014-05-26T21:12:12Z impomatic: Hi, does anyone know who first called John McCarthy the father of AI?
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2014-05-26T21:21:58Z p_l: impomatic: not sure, but it might be related to the fact that he coined the name
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2014-05-26T21:35:35Z impomatic: p_l: I just did a search on Google books. Lots of 1980's references to Minsky and Turing as the father of AI. A few to McCarthy, but no indication of when he was first described as the father.
2014-05-26T21:36:30Z p_l: impomatic: McCarthy apparently created the term in a conference that, among other things, had Minsky in attendance
2014-05-26T21:36:48Z p_l: the term "father of AI" might come from organizing said conference and giving AI its name
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2014-05-26T22:02:55Z impomatic: The earliest example I can find is in a review of "Scientific Temperaments: Three Lives in Contemporary Science" - New Scientist, March 1983
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2014-05-26T22:03:40Z p_l: impomatic: the tile is very informal, and mostly refers to 1956 Dartmouth conference
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2014-05-26T22:05:35Z p_l: Turing iirc only supposed possibility of a machine capable of thinking like a human (nothing really new - the idea was played with for more than a century earlier, just without anything concrete), Minsky iirc pushed forward the AI bubble by giving out predictions like "we will solve it within next X years" or so
2014-05-26T22:06:05Z jimbow: is a turing machine gay?
2014-05-26T22:06:39Z p_l: jimbow: it's unknown whether a turing machine is by itself happy or not, but you can theoretically program the feeling of happiness into it
2014-05-26T22:06:46Z jimbow: interesting
2014-05-26T22:06:56Z jimbow: we need to make machines have feelings
2014-05-26T22:07:01Z p_l: Turing Tarpit 2.0 = universe simulation
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2014-05-26T22:07:10Z jimbow: that way we'd learn more about our own brains
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2014-05-27T01:29:13Z axion: could someone offer a little help here? somewhat out of my comfort zone writing getters/setters :) http://paste.lisp.org/display/142709
2014-05-27T01:31:12Z Bike: doing (defun (setf user-balance) (amount account sub-account) ...) should be enough
2014-05-27T01:31:44Z Bike: and, minor thing, use find-symbol instead of intern, and you don't need VALUES
2014-05-27T01:32:06Z axion: hmm ok thanks. i'll try some things
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2014-05-27T01:49:02Z |3b|: INTERN might be better there, since sub-account names sound more like runtime data than code
2014-05-27T01:49:42Z |3b|: though an equalp hash table might be more direct
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2014-05-27T01:53:19Z axion: what would the body be in Bike's suggestion? cant seem to get it working
2014-05-27T01:53:34Z |3b|: exact same as in your SET-USER-BALANCE
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2014-05-27T01:54:45Z |3b|: but note the order of its arguments changed
2014-05-27T01:54:59Z axion: getting Variable name is not a symbol: "account".
2014-05-27T01:55:31Z |3b|: annotate that paste with what you have now?
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2014-05-27T01:56:40Z axion: annotated
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2014-05-27T01:58:47Z Bike: i'm sure you'll be happy to learn that It Works For Me
2014-05-27T01:58:53Z |3b|: same
2014-05-27T01:59:07Z |3b|: which lisp, and what is the exact message?
2014-05-27T01:59:53Z |3b|: and is the error during compilation or when you call it?
2014-05-27T02:00:04Z axion: how are you invoking the function?
2014-05-27T02:00:15Z axion: perhaps i am using the function incorrectly
2014-05-27T02:00:20Z axion: sbcl 1.1.18
2014-05-27T02:00:37Z Bike: oh, i just compiled it
2014-05-27T02:00:56Z |3b|: (setf (user-balance account sub-account) new-value)
2014-05-27T02:02:32Z axion: ok that seems to work. stupid up all night coding error. now what would be the best way to get rid of the duplicate lexical scope? :around method?
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2014-05-27T02:03:01Z Bike: i just wouldn't bother establishing variables, really
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2014-05-27T02:03:12Z |3b|: if you only have those functions i wouldn't worry about it
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2014-05-27T02:03:39Z |3b|: and you don't need VALUES there
2014-05-27T02:03:40Z Bike: (setf (getf (balance (get-value 'users account :bank)) (intern (string-upcase sub-account) "KEYWORD")) amount)))
2014-05-27T02:04:33Z axion: ok thank you :)
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2014-05-27T02:04:58Z |3b|: also, alexandria:make-keyword might save some typing
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2014-05-27T02:05:07Z axion: yeah i was just checking that out
2014-05-27T02:05:09Z |3b|: though i guess it doesn't upcase
2014-05-27T02:05:20Z axion: i always ignore alexandria...should get to use it more
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2014-05-27T03:59:39Z drmeister: So I was thinking of using setjmp/longjmp to implement catch/throw and I just learned that setjmp/longjmp subvert C++ exception handling.   This makes them completely useless to me because I use exception handling to implement unwind-protect.
2014-05-27T04:00:14Z Zhivago: Yes. The general advice regarding longjmp is "don't".
2014-05-27T04:00:34Z drmeister: Funny, that's the general advice for a lot of things in C++.
2014-05-27T04:01:20Z drmeister: So I looks like I can't do better than C++ exception handling to implement non-local exits in Common Lisp.
2014-05-27T04:02:08Z Zhivago: The alternative would be returning some kind of control tuple.
2014-05-27T04:02:53Z nightfly: implement some sort of continuation based system?
2014-05-27T04:04:53Z drmeister: nightfly: That would require a complete retooling.
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2014-05-27T04:33:42Z drmeister: So I'm working on incorporating the Boehm GC into my Common Lisp.   I've got the compiler compiling about 50 of the 70 Common Lisp source files.
2014-05-27T04:33:53Z drmeister: It's crashing when I bootstrap CLOS.
2014-05-27T04:34:44Z drmeister: It's crashing in a way that I've come to recognize as objects being allocated in the regular heap that contain pointers to things in the GC managed heap.
2014-05-27T04:35:07Z drmeister: What happens is objects inexplicably get turned into other objects.
2014-05-27T04:35:41Z drmeister: I think I've hunted down and fixed every allocation except for one - and it's a doozy.
2014-05-27T04:35:59Z drmeister: In-flight C++ exceptions are not managed seen by the GC.
2014-05-27T04:37:10Z p_l: stop interrupts when running exception handler?
2014-05-27T04:37:19Z drmeister: So if a RETURN-FROM returns a value and that value is only pointed to by the RETURN-FROM while it is in flight - then it may become invalid if the GC collects it while it's in flight.
2014-05-27T04:38:36Z drmeister: p_l: I was thinking of another solution, push the exception information onto a stack and pop it off when the exception is caught.   I can tell the GC to monitor the stack as roots.
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2014-05-27T04:40:54Z drmeister: While I was thinking about that I thought "exception handling is slow - why not replace it with setjmp/longjmp?"   So I start learning about setjmp/longjmp and pretty quickly realize that it is extremely dangerous in C++.
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2014-05-27T04:41:31Z drmeister: So back to the drawing board with exception handling and garbage collection and some sort of stack to temporarily store the exception handling information while the exception is in-flight.
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2014-05-27T07:33:37Z puchacz: hi
2014-05-27T07:33:53Z puchacz: "The remarkably successful Hymenopterans appeared as long as 146 million years ago" " appeared as long as 146 million years ago in the "
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2014-05-27T07:34:02Z puchacz: there is a common substring
2014-05-27T07:34:32Z puchacz: what is the efficient way of finding it please? I should use ppcre I guess
2014-05-27T07:35:44Z puchacz: and regexp like (((((((a?p)?p)?e)?a)?r)?e)?d)? etc
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2014-05-27T07:37:48Z puchacz: actually parentheses should be nested to the end of the string, not the beginning
2014-05-27T07:38:16Z rszeno: you know the common string and you want to find occurences or you don't know it and what to find the longest common string?
2014-05-27T07:38:35Z puchacz: I don't know the common string
2014-05-27T07:38:52Z puchacz: I only know it is anchored from beginning to mid
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2014-05-27T07:44:13Z rszeno: i don't think can be done with regex
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2014-05-27T07:49:20Z rszeno: if i have the set of all characters in the string and for each the positions where they occure i can find when two are consecutive and try to find the longest sequence ( or a ordered set of them )
2014-05-27T07:49:53Z splittist: puchacz: what do you mean 'anchored from beginning to mid'? Track-Best has a cute longest-matching-substring example http://nklein.com/software/track-best-library/
2014-05-27T07:50:07Z puchacz: let me check
2014-05-27T07:51:25Z Zhivago: Why not just iterate the string, counting consecutive duplicates?
2014-05-27T07:51:46Z puchacz: well, I know how to do it naively, and I did it
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2014-05-27T07:52:25Z rszeno: are few algo Needleman-Wunsch, Smith-Watterman, look for sequence alignment
2014-05-27T07:52:43Z puchacz: I loop from (- length 1) downto 1 and then try to match shorter and shorter subsequence using regexp
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2014-05-27T07:52:52Z puchacz: but it is unacceptably slow if I call it many times
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2014-05-27T07:54:01Z rszeno: a similarity matrix will save some time, and index of positions but is still a temporar solution
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2014-05-27T08:25:56Z puchacz: does anybody know if ppcre is optimised for cases like appeared|appeare|appear|appea|appe|app|ap|a ?
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2014-05-27T08:36:58Z splittist: puchacz: not only is the source available - and well worth the read - but you can try disassembling if you think that'll help.
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2014-05-27T11:14:05Z stassats changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new>. |Contact op if you can't speak| New: SBCL 1.2.0, hunchentoot 1.2.27, asdf 3.1.2, cl-launch 4.0.4
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2014-05-27T14:36:00Z Poenikatu: Could somebody look at http://paste.lisp.org/+3249 and tell me why the compiler is deleting unreachable code.
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2014-05-27T14:36:34Z Poenikatu: I'm using SBCL 1.1.18
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2014-05-27T14:39:24Z Poenikatu: For example, (cons tok 'word). How can it be unreachable? If 'tok' is not nil, I want to do something about it.
2014-05-27T14:40:05Z JuanDaugherty: impossible conditions would be my first guess
2014-05-27T14:40:16Z Xach: Poenikatu: It looks to me like you are trying to treat *LEXER-MODE* both as a symbol and a list.
2014-05-27T14:40:19Z Poenikatu: JuanDaugherty: Which one?
2014-05-27T14:40:43Z Poenikatu: Xach: Oh yes. Ouch! Tnanks a lot
2014-05-27T14:41:03Z Poenikatu retires bruised
2014-05-27T14:41:12Z Xach: Poenikatu: I don't know if that is the source of your particular compiler notes, but it is a start
2014-05-27T14:41:37Z Poenikatu: Xach: A very good start. TVM :-)
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2014-05-27T14:42:01Z Poenikatu: Sometimes one cannot see the wood for the trees
2014-05-27T14:45:36Z splittist: Poenikatu: and when that is sorted, you should just be able to pop *lexer-mode* with no guard.
2014-05-27T14:46:16Z Poenikatu: splittist: Yes, I rather think you are right. :-)
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2014-05-27T14:58:03Z hlavaty: Poenikatu: in pop-lexer-mode, (pop *lexer-mode*) would be enough, no if, plusp, length, nil needed; pop already handles that
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2014-05-27T14:59:12Z Poenikatu: hlavaty: Yes, splittist pointed that out, so I have deleted pop-lexer-mode and simply done "(pop *lexer-mode*) throughout
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2014-05-27T15:00:50Z Poenikatu: What I don't understand is why the 'in-string in (test-lexer-mode 'in-string) should be flagged by the compiler as unreachable.
2014-05-27T15:02:09Z prxq: sometimes the easiest way to figure out something like that is let the code run and look into the inevitable backtrace
2014-05-27T15:02:37Z Poenikatu: prxq: Thanks, I'll do that.
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2014-05-27T20:25:51Z jasom: Is it defined whether or not "accessors" (e.g. CL:VALUES) are functions or macros or special forms when used as a reader?
2014-05-27T20:26:07Z stassats: nope
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2014-05-27T20:26:21Z oleo: they are methods afaik
2014-05-27T20:26:39Z jasom: oleo: almost certain that's not true
2014-05-27T20:26:44Z oleo: not ?
2014-05-27T20:26:46Z jasom: CAR is not a method for example
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2014-05-27T20:27:05Z oleo: hmmm
2014-05-27T20:27:25Z samebchase: How I found words with the most anagrams: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142717#1 Comments welcome.
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2014-05-27T20:30:11Z jasom: stassats: Does that mean that e.g. (mapcar #'car list-of-lists) is not guaranteed to work?
2014-05-27T20:30:51Z dlowe: jasom: "accessor" has a specific meaning in CLOS
2014-05-27T20:31:04Z dlowe: and those accessors are methods
2014-05-27T20:31:24Z jasom: dlowe: I'm talking about "accessor" as used in the hyperspec to describe things like CAR or VALUES
2014-05-27T20:31:29Z oleo: he did use it in no-OO context it seems....
2014-05-27T20:31:37Z jasom: clhs car
2014-05-27T20:31:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm
2014-05-27T20:31:41Z jasom: there for example
2014-05-27T20:31:51Z stassats: jasom: those are defined to be functions
2014-05-27T20:32:48Z nyef: ... Hunh. That's delightfully twisted. Are we allowed to define any accessor not otherwise specified to be a function (car and friends are defined to be functions, see the third paragraph in the description) as macros, and how much code would break if we did?
2014-05-27T20:33:15Z stassats: clhs 5.1.2.2
2014-05-27T20:33:15Z specbot: Function Call Forms as Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_abb.htm
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2014-05-27T20:34:09Z nyef: Okay, so that gives a few lists of accessors which must be functions.
2014-05-27T20:34:20Z jasom: of course that doesn't include e.g. values, but values-list has the note "(values-list list) ==  (apply #'values list)"
2014-05-27T20:34:37Z stassats: clhs 5.1.2.3
2014-05-27T20:34:37Z specbot: VALUES Forms as Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_abc.htm
2014-05-27T20:34:53Z nyef: Are notes normative?
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2014-05-27T20:35:00Z stassats: no
2014-05-27T20:35:01Z jasom: I think they aren't
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2014-05-27T20:35:26Z nyef: So we can ignore the reference to values as being a function in its entry.
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2014-05-27T20:36:56Z stassats: well, it states clearly "For each standardized accessor function F, unless it is explicitly documented otherwise, it is implementation-dependent whether the ability to use an F form as a setf place is implemented by a setf expander or a setf function."
2014-05-27T20:37:11Z stassats: so, (setf F) is clear that it's unclear
2014-05-27T20:37:15Z jasom: stassats: that's for the writer half, not the reader half
2014-05-27T20:37:26Z stassats: but it can follow from this, that it's a function, not an accessor macro
2014-05-27T20:37:27Z jasom: right
2014-05-27T20:37:45Z nyef: Oh, wait.
2014-05-27T20:37:47Z nyef: clhs 1.4.4.14
2014-05-27T20:37:47Z specbot: The ``Name'' Section of a Dictionary Entry: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_ddn.htm
2014-05-27T20:38:06Z jasom: nyef: thank you!  That's what I was looking for
2014-05-27T20:38:12Z nyef: Accessors are mentioned as accessor functions.
2014-05-27T20:38:16Z stassats: so, define "accessor function", not "accessor" "function"?
2014-05-27T20:38:53Z stassats: well, who cares, it will be a function
2014-05-27T20:39:18Z stassats: unless you're making that obnoxious implementation with everything strictly conforming but unusable
2014-05-27T20:39:20Z jasom: I think at this point it is clear that the intent of the spec is for all accessors to be functions when not used as a place
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2014-05-27T21:08:33Z jasom: Is there a commonly used name for what python calls "zip"?  I often see it inlined as (mapcar #'list ...)
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2014-05-27T21:10:09Z axion: convolution
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2014-05-27T21:19:36Z Bike: transpose?
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2014-05-27T21:21:06Z jasom: axion: thanks
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2014-05-27T21:58:16Z joe-w-bimedina: I think I may have discovered a bug in sbcl, can someone verify if this statement will coerce a double to a float on your system (type-of (coerce a 'float))
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2014-05-27T21:59:01Z Bike: doubles are floats. are you thinking of single-float?
2014-05-27T21:59:49Z joe-w-bimedina: yea, trying to coerce to sinfe-float
2014-05-27T21:59:58Z joe-w-bimedina: single-float
2014-05-27T22:00:19Z Bike: do (coerce a 'single-float) then
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2014-05-27T22:01:02Z joe-w-bimedina: great! Thanks alot:)
2014-05-27T22:01:27Z nyef: Note that (or single-float double-float) is not necessarily an exhaustive partition of type 'float.
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2014-05-27T22:02:05Z Bike: though it happens to be on SBCL
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2014-05-27T22:03:00Z joe-w-bimedina: what do you mean by "
2014-05-27T22:03:00Z joe-w-bimedina: * LiamH (~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil) has left #lisp"
2014-05-27T22:03:22Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry,  what do you mean by "is not necessarily an exhaustive partition of type 'float."
2014-05-27T22:03:36Z Bike: there are also types short-float and long-float that implementations can have
2014-05-27T22:03:41Z Bike: 1.0s0 is a short float, for instance
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2014-05-27T22:04:14Z Bike: well, i mean, would be, if your implementation had short floats.
2014-05-27T22:04:47Z Bike: i don't remember all the rules particularly. point is it's not just singles and doubles, possibly.
2014-05-27T22:04:53Z nyef: ... What's the syntax for a single-float, then, if 1.0s0 is a short-float? 1.0f0?
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2014-05-27T22:05:29Z Bike: yes.
2014-05-27T22:05:41Z Bike: there's also e for just a float in general, apparently.
2014-05-27T22:06:44Z joe-w-bimedina: Thanks for all that info
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2014-05-27T22:26:50Z jasom: Someome please tell me to stop working on this: http://paste.lisp.org/+324E
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2014-05-27T22:28:34Z jasom: I think I've demonstrated it's possible to make composable iterators in a way similar to how setf works; I don't think I've demonstrated it to be a good idea though.
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2014-05-27T22:33:56Z jasom: clhs *default-float-format*
2014-05-27T22:33:56Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for *default-float-format*.
2014-05-27T22:34:05Z nyef: clhs *r-d-f-f*
2014-05-27T22:34:05Z specbot: *read-default-float-format*: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_rd_def.htm
2014-05-27T22:34:11Z jasom: thanks
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2014-05-27T22:35:09Z joe-w-bimedina: How would I convert the out put of (char-code 65) to just "A"
2014-05-27T22:35:12Z jasom: I knew that page had examples of all the various float formats and how they are imterpreted based on types available
2014-05-27T22:35:22Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: (string (char-code 65))
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2014-05-27T22:35:42Z joe-w-bimedina: Wow that was quick..thanks man
2014-05-27T22:36:59Z jasom: most languages that aren't heavily string-processing oriented have distinct character and string types
2014-05-27T22:37:31Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm on SBCL and that didn't seem to work, neither did: (coerce (char-code 65) 'string)...do those work on your implementation
2014-05-27T22:37:34Z nyef: char-code or code-char ?
2014-05-27T22:37:40Z jasom: code-char
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2014-05-27T22:38:24Z jasom: (string (code-char 65))
2014-05-27T22:38:32Z jasom accidentally copied joe's mistake
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2014-05-27T22:39:22Z joe-w-bimedina: perfect...that worked...I didn't realize I made that error..Thanks again:)
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2014-05-27T23:17:51Z drmeister: Anyone have any tricky CATCH/THROW/UNWIND-PROTECT/multiple-value-return examples?    To support garbage collection I had to reevaluate how I implemented those special operators in C++ using exception handling and RAII (what fun).  Then I discovered that my old implementation of UNWIND-PROTECT had a flaw that I think I corrected in my new implementation. https://gist.github.com/drmeister/37222a2059b1c28e2be2
2014-05-27T23:18:32Z drmeister: This is the version used by the interpreter.
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2014-05-27T23:20:00Z drmeister: I spent the night digging through the ECL code to see how they handled multiple value return with non-local exits and UNWIND-PROTECT and discovered they cleverly save and restore the multiple value return values around the cleanup-forms*.
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2014-05-27T23:20:28Z nyef: drmeister: Have you looked into the SBCL implementation of the same?
2014-05-27T23:21:15Z drmeister: I have not - I'm sure it's good - what would I find?
2014-05-27T23:21:22Z nyef: Particularly the win32 version, which does SEH integration for stack unwinding (though not for exception/signal delivery)?
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2014-05-27T23:22:40Z nyef: Basically, the return values for an unwind are passed as a pointer/length pair to stack-allocated data, and maintained throughout an unwind operation.
2014-05-27T23:22:59Z drmeister: Ah - I've been reading about setjmp/longjmp and discovered that on OS X and linux they are hostile to C++.   I read that Window has a form of setjmp/longjmp that work with exception handling and evaluate cleanup code as they unwind the stack - sadly I can't use that because nothing like that appears to exist in the *nix world.
2014-05-27T23:23:43Z drmeister: nyef: What you said is interesting to me - hang on - thinking...
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2014-05-27T23:24:28Z dim: IIRC C++ implements exception handling with setjmp/longjmp
2014-05-27T23:24:49Z dim: so that if you use that yourself you can't use setjmp
2014-05-27T23:25:01Z dim: sorry, mix&match is a problem I mean
2014-05-27T23:25:04Z nyef: It basically works by establishing an SEH frame for each UNWIND-PROTECT block, then uses RtlUnwind to do any unwinds.
2014-05-27T23:25:13Z drmeister: Previously I was passing the return values in the exception class that I was throwing - but I realized that those return values may not be visible to garbage collector - are we talking about the same thing?
2014-05-27T23:25:34Z dim: e.g. in PostgreSQL code, if you write an extension in C++, as PostgreSQL uses longjmp you can't use exceptions
2014-05-27T23:25:36Z nyef: They're stored on the stack, which the GC treats as conservative roots.
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2014-05-27T23:26:22Z axion: how do i use UNINTERN on a function named (setf data)?
2014-05-27T23:26:31Z drmeister: dim:   That may have been so in the past but no longer.    GCC and Clang use Itanium zero-cost exception handling.
2014-05-27T23:26:42Z dim: oh ok
2014-05-27T23:26:49Z nyef: axion: You don't, you either unintern DATA itself, or you want FMAKUNBOUND instead anyway.
2014-05-27T23:27:09Z axion: ok thanks
2014-05-27T23:27:23Z drmeister: dim: setjmp/longjmp on linux/OSX completely bypass cleanup code - RAII breaks, destructors aren't called, cats and dogs start living together - it's bad.
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2014-05-27T23:27:50Z drmeister: nyef: Thinking...
2014-05-27T23:28:46Z jasom: drmeister: windows is very C++ centric, so it's not surprising their setjmp/longjmp plays nice with C++
2014-05-27T23:29:12Z drmeister: nyef: So C++ exceptions are stored on the stack?    I've never found a definitive statement of that.   I should run some tests.
2014-05-27T23:29:24Z nyef: jasom: That's not it at all, Win32 SEH was borrowed from VMS.
2014-05-27T23:29:30Z p_l: jasom: more like Windows has system-wide exception system used by MSCV
2014-05-27T23:29:46Z p_l: jasom: the C++ centricity is pretty much only COM, afaik
2014-05-27T23:29:47Z jasom: drmeister: c++ exceptions is not at all defined to be implemented with setjmp/longjmp, but it is often done that way
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2014-05-27T23:30:06Z drmeister: jasom: Yes, I learned that last night.
2014-05-27T23:30:10Z nyef: (Like most of the rest of the windows NT design.)
2014-05-27T23:30:35Z p_l: nyef: well, NT is pretty much object oriented, multithreaded cut down VMS... ;)
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2014-05-27T23:30:54Z p_l: with a dash of hybrid microkernel
2014-05-27T23:31:08Z nyef wonders how the FreeVMS project is going... if it's still going...
2014-05-27T23:32:30Z jasom: "If any automatic objects would be destroyed by a thrown exception transferring control to another (destination) point in the program, then a call to longjmp at the trhow point that tranfsers control to the same (destination) point has undefined behavior.
2014-05-27T23:32:41Z drmeister: I'll be back in 5 min.
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2014-05-27T23:33:33Z jasom: ISO 14882:1998 18.7.4
2014-05-27T23:34:38Z jasom just realized he needs to buy the 2011 version of that
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2014-05-27T23:46:51Z drmeister: Did I miss anything re: exception handling after: jasom: "If any automatic objects would be destroyed by a thrown exception transferring control to another (destination) point in the program, then a call to longjmp at the trhow point that tranfsers control to the same (destination) point has undefined behavior.
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2014-05-27T23:47:23Z nyef: No, you did not.
2014-05-27T23:49:51Z nyef: Maybe what you need to do is have a linked list of "active unwinds", and snap out the link for an unwind if you unwind past it.
2014-05-27T23:50:07Z nyef: That would give you a starting point for your remaining roots.
2014-05-27T23:50:20Z JuanDaugherty: drmeister, it's a publicly logged channel
2014-05-27T23:53:11Z jasom: drmeister: you should be able to emulate setjmp/longjmp with throw/catch though, right?
2014-05-27T23:53:40Z drmeister: nyef: My interpretation of the ECL source code is they use a stack of frames for CATCH/BLOCK/TAGBODY - I'm implementing something like that.
2014-05-27T23:54:28Z nyef: Yeah, that's the other side, I'm talking about during the unwind.
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2014-05-27T23:57:23Z jasom: hmm, anyone know a simple document generation system?  I'd like something like RST or markdown that allows embedding forms, and the result of evaluating them automatically.
2014-05-27T23:57:48Z nyef: HTML-TEMPLATE?
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2014-05-28T00:00:02Z jasom: nyef: hmm, that might do it; I just need something that prints multiple-values from that
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2014-05-28T00:00:28Z drmeister: nyef: My active unwinds are handled using C++ exception handling  I basically implement try/catch/finally using C++ exception handling in LLVM-IR.
2014-05-28T00:00:56Z drmeister: In the interpreter I use this: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/ffd6380fd8be1a939fc1
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2014-05-28T00:01:22Z nyef: drmeister: But you were concerned about the GC finding the values that you were attempting to pass via a RETURN-FROM or THROW?
2014-05-28T00:02:00Z drmeister: Yes.
2014-05-28T00:02:49Z drmeister: Do you see a problem?
2014-05-28T00:04:45Z nyef: My mind is resisting attempting to understand your code in any sort of depth, I'm afraid.
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2014-05-28T00:05:52Z drmeister: That's ok - you don't have all the details and you have your own code to write :-)
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2014-05-28T00:12:59Z jasom: hmm pygments common-lisp lexer appears to correctly syntax highlight let but fails on LET.  That should be an easy fix.
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2014-05-28T00:17:36Z stassats: drmeister: is the MPS thing precise or conservative?
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2014-05-28T00:22:22Z jasom: stassats: it's precise
2014-05-28T00:22:40Z stassats: ok, how does it go about it?
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2014-05-28T00:24:44Z Skyler: has anyone used Redshank for lisp development? I can't seem to find tutorials for it on google.
2014-05-28T00:24:59Z stassats: does it use stack/register maps?
2014-05-28T00:25:32Z Skyler: i really dont' know what it does. I saw a quick demo video on the Redshank website and i'm not quite sure what it is.
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2014-05-28T00:26:02Z Skyler: if there was a guide similar the guide ot Paredit, but for Redshank that would be awesome.
2014-05-28T00:26:15Z Xach: Skyler: I don't use it, but I understand it's for filling out certain forms automatically (like defclass) or rewriting certain expressions (like if/cond)
2014-05-28T00:26:43Z Skyler: so basically like yasnippet? uhhhh. disappointed if it's just a lisp specific yasnippet.
2014-05-28T00:26:57Z Xach: I don't know what yasnippet is, sorry.
2014-05-28T00:27:05Z Skyler: I was hoping for something amazing on the caliber of Paredit and SLIME.
2014-05-28T00:27:11Z stassats: it isn't
2014-05-28T00:27:12Z Xach: You could read the source of redshank to find out more, I bet.
2014-05-28T00:27:34Z Skyler: yasnippet lets you insert code templates, then tab-through to each place holder.
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2014-05-28T00:27:43Z nyef: ISTR that redshank has a bit of magic for extract-function refactoring.
2014-05-28T00:28:26Z Skyler: hmmm. Yes i coudl read the code, but something like the Paredit guide that shows before/after text for each manipulation woudl be awesome.
2014-05-28T00:28:35Z Skyler: hmmm
2014-05-28T00:28:39Z jasom: Skyler: redshank is paredit plus a collection of macros for doing some fancier stuff, including some mild form rewriting
2014-05-28T00:28:39Z Xach: Skyler: there's nothing like that for redshank.
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2014-05-28T00:28:51Z Xach: if you make it, please send me a link
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2014-05-28T00:29:11Z jasom: plus skeletons as well
2014-05-28T00:29:14Z joe-w-bimedina: What is the nth function for strings e.g. if I run (defparameter a "foo") how do I retrieve just the "f" or "o" 's
2014-05-28T00:29:29Z stassats: clhs char
2014-05-28T00:29:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_char_.htm
2014-05-28T00:29:31Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: you can use the generic ELT or the string specific CHAR
2014-05-28T00:29:34Z jasom: clhs elt
2014-05-28T00:29:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_elt.htm
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2014-05-28T00:29:50Z jasom: or the array specific aref
2014-05-28T00:29:51Z jasom: clhs aref
2014-05-28T00:29:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_aref.htm
2014-05-28T00:29:53Z stassats: clhs subseq
2014-05-28T00:29:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm
2014-05-28T00:30:22Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: which language(s) do you have a background in?
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2014-05-28T00:33:25Z joe-w-bimedina: so is every one going to return a char or is there 1 function to return a string, not that using (string (aref a 0)) is a big deal
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2014-05-28T00:33:59Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: subseq returns a string (it's like python slices)
2014-05-28T00:34:27Z jasom: (subseq "foo" 1 1) => "o"
2014-05-28T00:34:28Z joe-w-bimedina: how do I get it to return the first letter
2014-05-28T00:34:38Z jasom: (subseq "foo" 0 0) => "f"
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2014-05-28T00:35:51Z stassats: do you really need a string?
2014-05-28T00:36:15Z joe-w-bimedina: Thanks again I do appreciate that extremely informative answer...It would make the second part of my function easier
2014-05-28T00:36:47Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: FYI it is more idiomatic to use characters over length-1 strings if you want a single character
2014-05-28T00:37:07Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: and then anytime you need it to be a string (but it might be a string designator) you wrap the value with (string )
2014-05-28T00:37:21Z stassats: this MPS thing has so many different terms
2014-05-28T00:37:39Z stassats: like somebody sat with a thesaurus
2014-05-28T00:37:51Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm using char in the computational part of my function but the subseq or string to display to user
2014-05-28T00:38:01Z joe-w-bimedina: Is anyone here good at neural nets
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2014-05-28T00:38:22Z stassats: you are not displaying a "string" to the user
2014-05-28T00:38:36Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: ~a should handle strings and characters just fine
2014-05-28T00:38:39Z stassats: you are causing something to get printed on the display, both characters and strings will be printed the same
2014-05-28T00:38:40Z jasom: clhs ~a
2014-05-28T00:38:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cda.htm
2014-05-28T00:40:58Z joe-w-bimedina: Thanks stassats and jasom that will really help too
2014-05-28T00:41:08Z stassats: clhs write-char
2014-05-28T00:41:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_cha.htm
2014-05-28T00:41:18Z jasom: clhs 22.1.3.2
2014-05-28T00:41:18Z specbot: Printing Characters: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_acb.htm
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2014-05-28T01:35:44Z joe-w-bimedina: Hey White_Flame, it's Joe...didn't know you came on here....
2014-05-28T01:36:34Z heddwch: I had no way of knowing you were Joe
2014-05-28T01:36:35Z joe-w-bimedina: Is there a List of all character codes used by Lisp when you run (char-code #\m)
2014-05-28T01:36:49Z joe-w-bimedina: funny
2014-05-28T01:37:42Z heddwch: You mean a list of character codes used by all Lisps?
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2014-05-28T01:38:30Z joe-w-bimedina: didn't know if White_Flame noticed me, I've known him for awhile...implementation independent is perfect @heddwch
2014-05-28T01:39:12Z Bike: it's not implementation independent, implementations can use whatever codes
2014-05-28T01:39:13Z heddwch: ah :) Well, I'm trying to understand what you mean. On your particular implementation, (char-code #\m) will only ever return one value
2014-05-28T01:39:19Z Bike: practically speaking it's going to be the ascii codepoint, though
2014-05-28T01:39:26Z heddwch: ^
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2014-05-28T01:40:10Z heddwch: For things outside base ASCII, there's some libraries, flexi-streams comes to mind, that give you a portable way to ensure an external format.
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2014-05-28T01:42:40Z joe-w-bimedina: I was wondering why Lisp didn't match the ASCI chart here http://www.asciitable.com/ and I was looking at the big M and not the small m...my mistake, Thanks though, your ? helped me figure it out.  I'm writing code for a big library alot of people use...it is supposed to run on all platforms,  should I learn flexi-streams then
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2014-05-28T01:44:24Z Bike: probably flexi and babel, yeah
2014-05-28T01:45:10Z joe-w-bimedina: why babel out of curiousity
2014-05-28T01:45:46Z Bike: http://common-lisp.net/project/babel/
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2014-05-28T01:47:05Z joe-w-bimedina: so babel and flex-stream will run on all Lisp Implementations and Linux,Windows and MacOSX
2014-05-28T01:48:14Z joe-w-bimedina: and just babel or babel-streams as well
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2014-05-28T02:13:38Z drmeister: stassats: MPS is precise on the heap and conservative on the stack.   It moves things that are pointed to only by pointers on the heap and locks in memory things that are pointed to by ambiguous pointers on the stack as long as there are pointers to it on the stack.
2014-05-28T02:13:48Z drmeister: It's generational and compacting.
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2014-05-28T02:14:03Z drmeister: It's benchmarked at being about 2x faster than Boehm.
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2014-05-28T02:29:42Z joe-w-bimedina: I have this function here https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/00de85fad1fc05f708fc. I was wondering how, in that function I can convert the input parameter "word", which will be a user entered string consisting of 1 english word, to uppercase before running the  (princ (char-code (coerce (aref word i) 'character))) section of the code. What I have now doesn't appear to be working
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2014-05-28T02:31:53Z heddwch: ,clhs string-upcase
2014-05-28T02:32:02Z Bike: clhs string-upcase
2014-05-28T02:32:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stg_up.htm
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2014-05-28T02:32:16Z heddwch: that haha I tried
2014-05-28T02:32:49Z Bike: and yeah, that *print-case* binding is irrelevant.
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2014-05-28T02:37:51Z joe-w-bimedina: Ok thanks you very much, that worked perfect, funny I got the *print-case* thing in the let, to work before but forgot how
2014-05-28T02:41:39Z nicdev: on CCL, i just built the kernel with make but as a result i am having this message 'Heap image too old for this kernel'. pointers on how to create a new Heap image?
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2014-05-28T02:47:17Z zRecursive: nicdev: (ccl:rebuild-ccl :full t)
2014-05-28T02:52:03Z heddwch: Any progress, nicdev ?
2014-05-28T02:54:28Z brucem: drmeister: you there?
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2014-05-28T03:00:00Z joe-w-bimedina: I have a variable "A" that is equal to nil.  Each iteration of a loop my code inside the loop will output 2 number sets e.g. 11, 12, 65, 78. I would like to append those numbers to "A" so if my loop ran 4 times and these are the numbers it output, 11, 12, 65, 78. 1 set per iteration then A would equal 11126578.  So I need a push type function for that and a nth type function to get the 2 number sets back out.
2014-05-28T03:00:47Z Bike: If you get exactly one number per iteration you should probably just use loop's collect clause.
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2014-05-28T03:01:15Z drmeister: brucem: I am.
2014-05-28T03:01:22Z joe-w-bimedina: it is a dotimes loop though
2014-05-28T03:01:33Z axion: how can i move a hash table item to a different key? if i setf then remhash within a function, the old key is still present
2014-05-28T03:01:39Z brucem: drmeister: Boehm doesn't scan TLS stuff ... but if you're going to allocate something and shove it in there, you can manage it via GC_add_roots.
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2014-05-28T03:02:47Z brucem: drmeister: confirmed by first reading the source and then asking someone that knows Boehm better than I.
2014-05-28T03:03:04Z drmeister: brucem: I'm hip to that.   I'm not sure what the problem is at the moment other than when compiling CLOS my system crashes because an object inexplicably transmutes into another object.
2014-05-28T03:03:48Z heddwch assumes nicdev solved it
2014-05-28T03:03:51Z drmeister: I allocate a lot of stuff in the regular heap and I've been moving the stuff that needs to be in the GC heap into the GC heap.
2014-05-28T03:04:44Z Bike: axion: What do you mean? remhash removes the key.
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2014-05-28T03:04:59Z Bike: joe-w-bimedina: probably should switch to loop for this, then
2014-05-28T03:06:05Z drmeister: I could provide more detail if you like to explain what I think the problem is.   But basically I've been redoing my CATCH/THROW,  BLOCK/RETURN-FROM and TAGBODY/GO so that no pointers are stored in the exception classes that I throw to unwind the stack.   I believe (although I'm not sure) that the exception objects were not being scanned by Boehm.   I don't know where they are allocated.
2014-05-28T03:06:34Z joe-w-bimedina: the CLHS says  "adds the value of that form to the end of a list of values"  I would need it not to be a list , I have to enter just the four sets of numbers as 1 number eg 11126578 to the rest of my code
2014-05-28T03:06:34Z drmeister: I dug through the ECL source code and figured out how they handle non-local exits and I'm emulating that.
2014-05-28T03:07:15Z Bike: joe-w-bimedina: so you don't actually want a list? use multiplication and modular division, then.
2014-05-28T03:07:17Z heddwch: (coerce my-darn-list 'vector)
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2014-05-28T03:07:44Z heddwch: Oh, appending as an actual number, yea, what Bike said. Numbers aren't generally appended
2014-05-28T03:08:03Z Bike: joe-w-bimedina: ((lambda (current add) (+ (* 100 current) add)) 111265 78) => 11126578
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2014-05-28T03:09:21Z joe-w-bimedina: so does it really take that, are there no number append functions...I do appreciate it though, I'm going to go try it
2014-05-28T03:10:00Z Bike: Yes, you have to do the add and multiply by yourself. It's pretty easy.
2014-05-28T03:10:21Z axion: Bike: (defun test () (setf (gethash new-key *hash*) (gethash old-key *hash*)) (remhash old-key *hash*)) ; starting with count=1, end result is count=2
2014-05-28T03:11:04Z heddwch: Pure curiosity: Why are you wanting to append a number like that?
2014-05-28T03:11:08Z Bike: i assume that's supposed to have arguments.
2014-05-28T03:11:49Z Bike: axion: Not here.
2014-05-28T03:12:04Z axion: odd
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2014-05-28T03:14:16Z Bike: (setf (gethash 'foo *hash*) 9); *hash* => #<HASH-TABLE :TEST EQL :COUNT 1 {10045DECD3}>; (test 'foo 'bar); *hash* => #<HASH-TABLE :TEST EQL :COUNT 1 {10045DECD3}>; (gethash 'foo *hash*) => NIL NIL
2014-05-28T03:15:11Z joe-w-bimedina: I have to feed in a 4 letter word . say "word", to my program and convert it via char-code and a loop to a set of numbers 87798268 and feed that int a neural net and see if I can get the NN to predict what the next word will be
2014-05-28T03:15:46Z heddwch: Ah, all right
2014-05-28T03:15:50Z heddwch: thanks :)
2014-05-28T03:15:59Z joe-w-bimedina: no problem:)
2014-05-28T03:16:42Z axion: found the problem, thanks
2014-05-28T03:17:20Z joe-w-bimedina: the thing is with ((lambda (current add) (+ (* 100 current) add)) 111213 78), how would I get the numbers  back out of this set of numberr 11121378, in 2 number sets
2014-05-28T03:17:30Z Bike: joe-w-bimedina: here's the other function for you: (defun nth-digit (number n base) (mod (floor number (expt base n)) base))
2014-05-28T03:17:36Z Bike: oh, good time on my part.
2014-05-28T03:17:51Z joe-w-bimedina: perfect thank you!
2014-05-28T03:18:00Z Bike: now (nth-digit 11126578 2 100) => 12
2014-05-28T03:18:04Z Bike: counting from zero, and from the right.
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2014-05-28T03:18:54Z joe-w-bimedina: so out of curiosity I need to start with nil and your function doesn't support that, how would I change that?
2014-05-28T03:19:05Z Bike: Nil? You mean zero?
2014-05-28T03:19:33Z Bike: If you're dealing with numbers use numbers, not lists.
2014-05-28T03:19:58Z joe-w-bimedina: but with 0 something would be in the 0 index, 0
2014-05-28T03:20:26Z Bike: So?
2014-05-28T03:20:50Z Bike: (nth-digit 11126578 4 100) => 0, too. there's no limit to the length.
2014-05-28T03:21:37Z joe-w-bimedina: isn't that bad coding to make something you constantly have to circumvent,  I like dotimes loops and this would take a little more effort
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2014-05-28T03:22:40Z Bike: I don't understand your requirements enough to determine what you think is circumvention.
2014-05-28T03:22:41Z Nobel: Anyone know metacircular evaluation?
2014-05-28T03:22:46Z Bike: yes.
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2014-05-28T03:23:33Z Nobel: Oh, I couldt figure out what it really means. How it can interpret itself for first time?
2014-05-28T03:23:37Z Bike: joe-w-bimedina: i mean, i thought you were just getting a fairly arbitrary map from strings to integers, and then you feed the integer as a whole to a neural network, but now you have to extract things too and i don't know what you're doing.
2014-05-28T03:23:50Z Bike: Nobel: using the already-existent evaluator on the "meta" level.
2014-05-28T03:24:38Z Nobel: Then its possible to make it this in other languages like ML.
2014-05-28T03:24:54Z joe-w-bimedina: It would be better to have nothing in the 0th index but 11 with the pre supplied number set.  well after the nn predicts the next word I was going to output the result to the user
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2014-05-28T03:25:22Z Bike: Nobel: sure
2014-05-28T03:25:47Z joe-w-bimedina: after converting 87798268 back to "word" if successful
2014-05-28T03:26:04Z Nobel: But guys in OCaml channels says it need to be homogionic and ML is not
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2014-05-28T03:26:43Z Nobel: Program is not a primitive data like in Lisp
2014-05-28T03:26:47Z Bike: well homoiconicity makes it easier.
2014-05-28T03:27:06Z Bike: in an ML metacircular evaluator your evaluator would work on something that looks different from your code.
2014-05-28T03:27:41Z Bike: Expr = Function [Expr] | Expr Binop Expr | Symbol, that sort of thing
2014-05-28T03:28:35Z Bike: And then you write a parser to get those data structures from something that looks like source.
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2014-05-28T03:30:55Z Nobel: I understood the difference but still dont know what you mean with "evaluator on the "meta" level."
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2014-05-28T03:33:28Z Bike: well, for example, a super primitive metacircular evaluator in lisp: (defun eval. (expr env) (if (symbolp expr) (or (cdr (assoc expr env)) (error "unbound")) (apply (car expr) (mapcar (lambda (e) (eval. e env)) (cdr expr)))))
2014-05-28T03:33:40Z Bike: here eval. is your function, and apply is a "meta-level", i.e. already existent in the system, function.
2014-05-28T03:33:51Z Zhivago: Nobel: What do you call an evaluator being evaluated by an evaluator?
2014-05-28T03:35:04Z Nobel: can you call it a lisp intepreter written in lisp
2014-05-28T03:36:05Z heddwch: Zhivago: Masturbation
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2014-05-28T03:36:42Z Zhivago: heddwch: I think that you may need a serious talk with your parents.
2014-05-28T03:36:56Z heddwch: What?
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2014-05-28T03:39:24Z Nobel: Oh, I believed Lisp code turning to a interpreter somehow when you writing it in run time. So there is no magic. With and lexer and parser you can do it in all functional languages.
2014-05-28T03:39:48Z Bike: i don't understand your first sentence, but it's hardly magical, yes.
2014-05-28T03:42:08Z Zhivago: nobel: So you can imagine a tower of evaluators -- the reason this can be efficient is that the next level up can generally mostly reuse the level below it, directly.
2014-05-28T03:43:32Z Zhivago: You might also be interested in looking at metaobject protocols.
2014-05-28T03:43:33Z Nobel: Yep, I got it I think. evaluating an evaluator expression
2014-05-28T03:45:03Z Zhivago: The next step is to understand the evaluator as being a program being evaluated by itself.
2014-05-28T03:45:09Z Zhivago: Which is where the 'circular' bit comes in.
2014-05-28T03:45:55Z Nobel: Oh, I am confused again.
2014-05-28T03:46:22Z Nobel: you mean writing an eval function in Racket for example?
2014-05-28T03:47:15Z Zhivago: I mean that the apply being used by the evaluator is implemented in the language being evaluated.
2014-05-28T03:48:36Z Zhivago: (and so on)
2014-05-28T03:50:35Z Nobel: You may think I am an idiot but I will repeat again, you writed in a eval function in a Lisp deriative, this eval function will evaluate itself, is that it?
2014-05-28T03:51:05Z Zhivago: Pretty much.
2014-05-28T03:51:39Z Zhivago: Generally there will be some special cased stuff to bootstrap it to that point.
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2014-05-28T03:53:22Z Nobel: Then we shouldt write anything in eval function which this function cant evaluate
2014-05-28T03:54:08Z Nobel: Its kind of responsible for itself
2014-05-28T03:54:22Z joe-w-bimedina: :BIKE forgot to say thank you for those function, so Thank you,  that was some very intelligent coding,  You should submit those to to the Common Lisp developers, it would be nice to have more functions like that
2014-05-28T03:55:20Z Bike: well, thank you, but i think they're pretty basic.
2014-05-28T03:56:42Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm going to add them to my Library so my users can have the privilege
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2014-05-28T04:04:50Z joe-w-bimedina: :BIKE when you call (lambda (current add) is that basically calling 2 lambda functions, current and add.
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2014-05-28T04:06:48Z Bike: no, those are just arguments
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2014-05-28T04:07:20Z Bike: if you wanted a function instead of a lambda it'd be something like (defun add-digit (current digit base) (+ (* base current) digit)).
2014-05-28T04:08:42Z joe-w-bimedina: the thing is If I have a variable v = 0 and I run the lambda you gave me on v , afterward v will still equal 0, I'm trying to append to v,  will this function do that
2014-05-28T04:09:26Z Bike: No, it returns a new number. You'd have to do something like (setf v (add-digit v ...))
2014-05-28T04:09:38Z Bike: Numbers are immutable in CL.
2014-05-28T04:09:54Z joe-w-bimedina: what is immutable?
2014-05-28T04:10:36Z Bike: Un-changeable.
2014-05-28T04:11:07Z Zhivago: You can't be changing the number 4, unlike in fortran.
2014-05-28T04:12:45Z Bike: variables like v are changeable though of course.
2014-05-28T04:13:14Z joe-w-bimedina: so in the function you provided,  I would need parameters for the original number. 565664 for instance and the new number to be added, 44 for instance but what about the third param,  was I just supposed to add my own &optional
2014-05-28T04:14:11Z joe-w-bimedina: oh wait no, the 100 makes it possible to by 2 digits right, for 3 base = 1000, right
2014-05-28T04:14:16Z Bike: in the original lambda i just hardcoded 100. in add-digit you'd use 100 since you're - right.
2014-05-28T04:14:34Z joe-w-bimedina: thank you
2014-05-28T04:15:51Z Bike: relatedly, if you're dealing with ASCII text 100 isn't a good base to use, you'd be better off with 128...
2014-05-28T04:17:01Z joe-w-bimedina: really, I've been using upcase'ed strings to make this work so all letters would be 2 digits,  how would 128 help?
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2014-05-28T04:19:11Z Bike: there are 128 distinct ascii characters. i mean, i guess it doesn't matter the way you've got it now, but the lowercase letters past #\c have codes greater than 99.
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2014-05-28T04:22:59Z Nobel: thanks by the way it was very helpful
2014-05-28T04:23:38Z joe-w-bimedina: I would like the entered words to be case sensitive so I can enter "Word" or "word" and it will still predict, how would 128 help, I'm basically concerned with just letters and, basically whatever you would find on a webpage, I would like to start parsing webpages
2014-05-28T04:24:12Z Bike: well with webpages you're probably going to want unicode.
2014-05-28T04:24:26Z Bike: I don't know how to explain in any simpler a fashion. There are 128 codepoints, they won't all fit in two decimal digits.
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2014-05-28T04:26:43Z joe-w-bimedina: I just want the stuff you can see on the webpage, not anything embedded, so unicode is better for that?
2014-05-28T04:27:00Z Bike: if the webpage was written in the 21st century, yes
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2014-05-28T04:27:46Z Bike: ascii does not include characters like ó or シ that a lot of the world likes to use when they write.
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2014-05-28T04:28:45Z joe-w-bimedina: so what lisp functions convert to from unicode?
2014-05-28T04:29:04Z heddwch: They don't
2014-05-28T04:29:10Z heddwch: That's what flexi-streams and babel are for.
2014-05-28T04:29:19Z heddwch: CLHS doesn't specify the character encoding
2014-05-28T04:29:37Z heddwch: er, common lisp spec* not just the hyper spec =p
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2014-05-28T04:30:19Z Bike: char-code and code-char, on most implementations nowadays, if you mean converting characters to and from their unicode codepoints
2014-05-28T04:31:00Z heddwch: D: portability (which probably doesn't matter because I'm guessing he has a mandated implementation)
2014-05-28T04:31:47Z joe-w-bimedina: I do have flexi-streams and babel installed, real quick in one of those how do I convert "a" to a number, to asci and to unicode...I'd like this all to be implementation independent
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2014-05-28T04:32:25Z joe-w-bimedina: or even a link to an easy lesson
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2014-05-28T04:33:09Z heddwch: Well, the 'normal' english set generally is equal in ASCII and UTF-8 (codepoints <128)
2014-05-28T04:34:03Z heddwch: Anything outside of that, as Bike mentioned, is already unicode in most implementations. Don't convert it to ASCII if you enjoy your sanity/don't need to
2014-05-28T04:35:26Z heddwch: flexi-streams is well-documented and once a stream is opened, acts much like a stream. It just lets you ensure that it's going to be written as utf-8 because that's theoretically not a guarantee. It also lets you transparently read a different encoding into your internal encoding, if you were to have such a need.
2014-05-28T04:35:48Z heddwch: Really, I guess the answer is don't worry about it, I just piped up immaturely about correctness.
2014-05-28T04:36:10Z joe-w-bimedina: so for starters pretend I'm just using letters a-z and A-Z, gow do I convert from "a" to a number and back, in flexi-streams or bable, whichever you suggest?
2014-05-28T04:36:21Z joe-w-bimedina: just something simple?
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2014-05-28T04:36:27Z Bike: probably just stick with char-code until it breaks
2014-05-28T04:36:32Z heddwch: ^
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2014-05-28T04:38:06Z joe-w-bimedina: this is an example that might/should be going into OpenCV, so it is important it not break though
2014-05-28T04:38:31Z joe-w-bimedina: not bragging, just stressing importance
2014-05-28T04:39:07Z drewc: (let ((*read-base* 36)) (read-from-string "a")) <--- turns "a" into a number!
2014-05-28T04:39:30Z joe-w-bimedina: is that flexi-streams
2014-05-28T04:39:35Z Bike: no, it's lisp.
2014-05-28T04:39:48Z Bike: you get the number 10 from that.
2014-05-28T04:39:52Z heddwch: drewc: He's being a bit more specific than that
2014-05-28T04:40:27Z drewc: heddwch: I see a string, not a character, so I made do.
2014-05-28T04:40:29Z Bike: well, actually, joe doesn't seem to care about the particular encoding, so i guess if you're being really paranoid and only want caseless alphabetic characters digit-char-p would work.
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2014-05-28T04:41:19Z joe-w-bimedina: how is it deriving 36 from a
2014-05-28T04:41:28Z Bike: it's not.
2014-05-28T04:41:34Z Bike: it's reading "a" as a number in base 36.
2014-05-28T04:41:56Z Nobel: thanks by the way it was very helpful
2014-05-28T04:42:01Z Bike: you're welcome.
2014-05-28T04:42:14Z Bike: anyway if you want to be portable but not bother with babel and flexi you could use char-code-limit and char-code with impunity
2014-05-28T04:42:59Z heddwch: drewc: heh, well, he's converting each letter into a number via char-code right now, then 'appending' the decimal digits (e.g (+ (* (char-code char-1) 10000) (* (char-code char-2) 100) (char-code char-3))
2014-05-28T04:45:07Z Bike: honestly i don't understand the point of the appending, since as far as i understand ANNs you could just have one input neuron for "one character ago" and one for "two characters ago" and so on for some finite word size, and just do things over time. but i don't understand ANNs very far
2014-05-28T04:45:58Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry, should have ran it. but "A" would equal "a", anyways still good enough for now, how would I convert 10 back to "a", though.---yeah I
2014-05-28T04:46:09Z joe-w-bimedina: am still learning ann's
2014-05-28T04:46:21Z joe-w-bimedina: I go 1 good ann I'm trying to update
2014-05-28T04:46:29Z joe-w-bimedina: i got 1 good..
2014-05-28T04:46:57Z joe-w-bimedina: just 1 step at a time though, til I master it
2014-05-28T04:47:35Z drewc: (defun %char-code (string-of-length-1) (let ((*read-base* 36)) (+ 87 (read-from-string )) <--- I'll show myself out
2014-05-28T04:48:01Z joe-w-bimedina: *applause*
2014-05-28T04:48:06Z joe-w-bimedina: :)
2014-05-28T04:49:30Z heddwch: ;skgj;fk I didn't balance the paren around my aside. Excuse my while I commit seppuku.
2014-05-28T04:49:39Z heddwch: ...s/my/me/ Bedtime, night
2014-05-28T04:50:58Z joe-w-bimedina: that's pretty funny..that's cursing right -> ;skgj;fk
2014-05-28T04:53:08Z drewc: actually, his was left ... yours is right.
2014-05-28T04:53:35Z joe-w-bimedina: ;skgj;fk
2014-05-28T04:53:37Z drewc: big cursing vs little cursing ... gets confusing.
2014-05-28T04:53:44Z joe-w-bimedina: ;skgj;fk
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2014-05-28T05:35:52Z joe-w-bimedina: Is there a better function than subseq for getting the exact charecter from a string, I have the string "word" and I would like to, in a loop retrieve, "w", then do something, retrieve "o" then do something etc.. I can't seem to make an iterator work with subseq
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2014-05-28T05:37:23Z Bike: (char "word" 0) => #\w
2014-05-28T05:37:42Z axion: map
2014-05-28T05:37:51Z joe-w-bimedina: your a lifesaver, thank you
2014-05-28T05:38:00Z axion: (map nil #'func "string") maybe
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2014-05-28T05:38:34Z zRecursive: (loop for char across word for value = (char-code char) do (...))
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2014-05-28T06:38:29Z joe-w-bimedina: Is there any way to change this (defun nth-digit (number n &optional (base 100))  (mod (floor number (expt base n))  base)) so (nth-digit 66696582 0) would output 66
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2014-05-28T06:41:40Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: I think you want (with-input-from-string ...
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2014-05-28T06:42:44Z loke: (with-input-from-string (s "foo") (list (read-char s) (read-char s)))
2014-05-28T06:44:47Z joe-w-bimedina: I just need to convert the function I provided so if I run (nth-digit 66696582 0) it would return 66 instead of 82...any ideas
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2014-05-28T06:48:29Z Bike: that complicates things, why bother
2014-05-28T06:49:57Z joe-w-bimedina: I wanted this to be a go to, real utility in my library and its a little off, but still great:), as is
2014-05-28T06:50:49Z Bike: you'll have to find the leftmost nonzero digit, probably with comparisons
2014-05-28T06:52:11Z joe-w-bimedina: can you show me , I've been at this for a while
2014-05-28T06:52:53Z Bike: well, actually, easier to use INTEGER-LENGTH and do some conversion
2014-05-28T06:52:55Z Bike: clhs integer-length
2014-05-28T06:52:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intege.htm
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2014-05-28T06:53:43Z Bike: or just log10 like it says there, i guess
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2014-05-28T06:57:07Z joe-w-bimedina: I could just use an example, this one has me stumped
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2014-05-28T06:58:46Z Bike: (ceiling (log (1+ 66696582) 10)) => 8, as in 8 digits long
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2014-05-28T06:59:50Z Bike: breaks fast though.
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2014-05-28T07:01:16Z joe-w-bimedina: don't really want it to break, how do I use the ceiling statement you posted, kinda new to this area of Lisp
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2014-05-28T07:02:25Z Bike: look, i'm okay writing a few oneliners for you but i think you're really lacking an understanding of how positional numeral representations work, it's nothing lisp-specific.
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2014-05-28T07:05:15Z joe-w-bimedina: The advance stuff I'm still trying to break into, any idea how I can get started learning positional numeral representations, your right and I don't want to be a drag to anyone
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2014-05-28T07:06:32Z Bike: the best book i can think of is taocp volume 2, "Seminumerical Algorithms", but it's not easy.
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2014-05-28T07:08:53Z joe-w-bimedina: I do appreciate that
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2014-05-28T07:27:59Z joe-w-bimedina: Is there any way to have a loop like this (loop for i from 0 downto -10  collect i) and take out the collect completely and just do something with the decrementing i iterator every iteration, like a dotimes but in reverse
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2014-05-28T07:35:44Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: are you referring to structured learning material at all?
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2014-05-28T07:37:22Z joe-w-bimedina: yea, every time I try and learn loops anywhere, the collect is involved. I don't want to collect anything, I'd like to do the complex iterations and do what I want each loop
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2014-05-28T07:38:59Z H4ns: well, if you've read an introduction to loop already, it must be something complicated that you want to do but i fail to understand your question.
2014-05-28T07:39:20Z H4ns: sorry for interrupting.
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2014-05-28T07:41:58Z joe-w-bimedina: well with this (loop for i from 0 downto -10  collect i) , I would like to do whatever I want where the collect i is, like I do in a dotimes loop, so it would be like a backwards dotimes
2014-05-28T07:42:23Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: i'm pretty sure that any loop tutorial would mention DO before COLLECT
2014-05-28T07:43:10Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: so i'd suggest that you re-read a loop tutorial because you've missed the basics when you did last time.
2014-05-28T07:43:29Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html
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2014-05-28T07:45:13Z joe-w-bimedina: your right I completely missed it, I got so hung up on the  for, from, downto I forgot about do, thanks alot
2014-05-28T07:45:45Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: "you're"
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2014-05-28T07:47:28Z joe-w-bimedina: I guess I should be courteous to a kind teacher, you're right I completely missed it...  Thanks again:)
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2014-05-28T08:49:35Z joe-w-bimedina: is there anyway to find the length of a number ie (length 1234567890) would equal 10
2014-05-28T08:50:04Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: you've been given several answer to that question earlier.
2014-05-28T08:50:40Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: there are many different ways.  it is your task, as a programmer, to find one and put it into code.
2014-05-28T08:51:27Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry about that, I'll go ahead and search the transcripts
2014-05-28T08:51:49Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: i suppose you're doing homework?  the point of your teacher giving you that homework is to make you learn programming, not passing the question on to some people who already know how to program
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2014-05-28T08:56:06Z joe-w-bimedina: no, I'm building a library and I'm just about to finally understand neural nets, a project which has been 6 months in the making, Sorry about all the questions but answering all these little questions for me will really help me, has really helped me tackle this bigger issue, Just haven't been able to find these little things on google much today
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2014-05-28T08:58:13Z prxq: with the sbcl 1.2, if I hit v on a frame in a backtrace I get Error: unhandled DEBUG-CONDITION: #<SB-DI::COMPILED-DEBUG-FUN UTILS:MAKE-GNUPLOT> has no debug-block information.
2014-05-28T08:58:45Z prxq: instead of slime jumping to code corresponding to the frame.
2014-05-28T08:59:08Z prxq: is that a bug or did I miss a change in procedure?
2014-05-28T08:59:21Z H4ns: prxq: did you try recompiling the file that contains utils:make-gnuplot with high debug?  (C-u C-c C-k)
2014-05-28T09:00:03Z prxq: I have this in my .sbclrc: (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 2)
2014-05-28T09:00:18Z prxq: but I will try that.
2014-05-28T09:01:20Z prxq: nope.
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2014-05-28T09:01:47Z Krystof: warping to source woks for me
2014-05-28T09:01:58Z Krystof: better than my r key
2014-05-28T09:02:28Z Krystof: hm, is that a structure constructor?
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2014-05-28T09:03:06Z prxq: Krystof: no, just a function
2014-05-28T09:03:17Z Krystof: hm
2014-05-28T09:03:57Z prxq: the function is defined in the same file that calls it in an eval-when.
2014-05-28T09:04:05Z prxq: so maybe that's the issue
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2014-05-28T09:04:56Z Krystof: I can reproduce, yes
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2014-05-28T09:05:20Z Krystof: if I remember correctly, the debug information gets patched in at the end of loading the fasl
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2014-05-28T09:06:31Z Krystof: so, the short answer is "don't cause an error when loading fasls from functions defined in the same file"
2014-05-28T09:06:38Z Krystof: as well as "please file a bug"
2014-05-28T09:06:44Z Krystof: and the long answer will take longer
2014-05-28T09:06:55Z prxq: that's ok
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2014-05-28T09:08:41Z Krystof: thank you
2014-05-28T09:10:08Z prxq: Krystof: np. and sorry for not fulfilling my promise of testing with my codebase.
2014-05-28T09:10:33Z prxq: btw, I expected an error with this: http://paste.lisp.org/+324H
2014-05-28T09:11:14Z prxq: FOO errs allright in the repl, but keeps dividing by zero when I compile and load that file
2014-05-28T09:11:25Z Krystof: interesting
2014-05-28T09:12:04Z Krystof: oh, probably the / is treated as side-effect free and deleted
2014-05-28T09:12:08Z prxq: actually no, foo does not err
2014-05-28T09:12:20Z prxq: i see
2014-05-28T09:12:30Z Krystof: I think we have this argument about / about every two months
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2014-05-28T09:41:34Z joe-w-bimedina: Thanks again to everybody who helped me today me today, I just wanted to share my final result. I swear to god this is what happened btw, and you true Lisp aficionado's will appreciate this, I fed my Decision Trees Algorithm(chose them instead of the net)  The word "Lisp" and here is a pic of what it predicted http://postimg.org/image/5xtfhydfp/ . I tripped me out I just had to share it
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2014-05-28T10:18:54Z noncom: how do i convince myself to get back to mainstream languages like C# for work and get paid for life after I have tried and understood what a lisp is?
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2014-05-28T10:19:23Z noncom: is there any book on it or something?
2014-05-28T10:19:32Z joe-w-bimedina: don't ask us
2014-05-28T10:19:51Z stassats: get paid for writing lisp instead
2014-05-28T10:19:55Z joe-w-bimedina: I live/breath Lisp, you should stick with it
2014-05-28T10:21:05Z noncom: :) oh i wish i could.. there are just no vacanvies for any flavour of lisp... the only way is to freelance or create my own company..
2014-05-28T10:21:29Z noncom: so now i have to code for unity3d and it is c#...
2014-05-28T10:21:48Z noncom: the company won't listen if i propose to integrate, say, ironscheme or something
2014-05-28T10:22:03Z noncom: haha :) well i guess this question has no answer whatever..
2014-05-28T10:22:20Z stassats: not with that attitude
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2014-05-28T10:22:51Z jdz: noncom: you should watch the talk at ESL2014 about the guys using lisp to generate C (and also shader) code with lisp
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2014-05-28T10:23:25Z noncom: stassats: so i gotta try and change all then!
2014-05-28T10:23:44Z noncom: jdz: haha nice :) gonna watch
2014-05-28T10:26:18Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm working to make Lisp more mainstream again by getting it into OpenCv, you can always help me with that if you want to increase the odds of Lisp Programmers making more money. It's alot of fun and I have an in because I'm developing for OpenCV already...  well a module
2014-05-28T10:29:15Z noncom: joe-w-bimedina: so, you're creating cl-opencv?
2014-05-28T10:31:31Z joe-w-bimedina: No Lisp-CV is my project, It wraps the C++ interface, CL-OPENCV wraps the C which is being deprecated,  I already have 270 functions wrapped, over 20,000 lines of code and documentation,  examples for over 90% of the functions. It is very well tested
2014-05-28T10:33:11Z pjb: noncom: https://www.informatimago.com/articles/life-saver.html
2014-05-28T10:33:59Z pjb: noncom: but it doesn't really work.  Your only career option remaining, is to start your own company up (or be freelance), and write lisp code for your customers.
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2014-05-28T10:35:26Z noncom: pjb: but i'ts a nice joke anyway :) yeah, I guess I will have to look into being more active with this since it isn't likely that the situation is gonna change itself anytime soon
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2014-05-28T10:36:11Z noncom: joe-w-bimedina: interesting. in the company i used to work, i was wrapping java-cv in clojure :D.. so i gotta look and try out what is there in lisp-cv
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2014-05-28T10:38:19Z noncom: java-cv was also nice coz it's not simply open-cv in java, but it has much more in it, like integrated ffmpeg support
2014-05-28T10:39:06Z joe-w-bimedina: I think you'll like, since every function has a tested example, you can be sure everything I wrap will work. I made the install for people who want to help work on the project so it's a little intensive. Making a bash script helps.
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2014-05-28T10:41:47Z joe-w-bimedina: It's still in process because it aims to be complete. I work on it 16 to 30 hours a day so check back every 1 to 2 days and It will be updated/bugs fixed.  You can just find it on google. The readme.md has my email for bug reports and If you want to add anything just send me a PR.
2014-05-28T10:41:48Z noncom: cool! can't promise that i will help with the development, but i gonna check it out and see what is going on. while i was working in the previous company i've been developing a multimedia 3d framework on clojure so that a lisp could be used to make things like unity3d. and now the company is dead and i'm working in real unity3d, having to learn the bunch of quirks now ...
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2014-05-28T10:42:22Z joe-w-bimedina: not familiar with unity3d, what is it?
2014-05-28T10:42:41Z noncom: https://unity3d.com/
2014-05-28T10:42:44Z joe-w-bimedina: oh a game engine
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2014-05-28T10:42:54Z joe-w-bimedina: is it better/worse than opengl
2014-05-28T10:43:28Z H4ns: opengl is not a game engine
2014-05-28T10:43:47Z noncom: it is a pile of crap. the only advantage it has - is that it is oriented for mainstream - it utilizes c# for scripting and builds totally crossplatform apps
2014-05-28T10:44:08Z noncom: and has a strong community which makes pretty cool plugins for it. but the core thing is crap
2014-05-28T10:45:51Z noncom: i'd say plain opengl wins. but you know mainstream - a company of uneducated people, making some games to quickly cut some money.. this is usually led by marketing people
2014-05-28T10:47:43Z noncom: i was making a media environment too, it was clojure + jmonkeyengine3 + java-cv + kinect + leapmotion + lots-o-stuff.. .but now the company is dead..
2014-05-28T10:47:43Z joe-w-bimedina: good to know, so what advantages does unity3d have and is there a CLisp wrapper for it...oh yeah for now my project is only tested on Ubuntu but as it progresses I'm going to hit every platform. As soon as one of our issues in OpenCv gets taken care of, Which we could use help with, A generator will be built that creates the low-level Lisp functions when OpenCV is built.
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2014-05-28T10:50:02Z noncom: the only unity3d advantage is that it is available to mainstream and has a very cool plugins support. just look into their plugins store. it has no any lisp interaction, it is pretty a thing-in-itself, rather closed. though you can buy sources. the real technical advantage is that your app is ready to be compiled for MSWin, Linux, MacOS, iOS, Android and Web..
2014-05-28T10:50:51Z joe-w-bimedina: is unity3d the best
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2014-05-28T10:52:06Z noncom: it is the best and a very cleverly marketed game creation platform. afaik there is no another so popular one out there. while technically it is rather disgusting, it IS popular and it has tonns of good-selling games made in it
2014-05-28T10:52:13Z stassats: wouldn't "unity" in 3d be "trinity"?
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2014-05-28T10:52:46Z noncom: stassats: interesting observation :)
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2014-05-28T10:53:24Z noncom: joe-w-bimedina: if you're interested, you could try it for yourself, the free version is very capable and full of features.
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2014-05-28T10:56:13Z noncom: but i wouldn't vote for adopting it into lisp
2014-05-28T10:56:18Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm still waiting to see a real game made in Lisp.....I don't have time right now but as soon as I get a chance I will, I spend every waking moment on this so I can get it into OpenCv 3.0. When I get the cuda interface built it will be a viable solution to Lisp having no good Computer Vision Library...I don't count LUSH because it's not pure Lisp, when I say that
2014-05-28T10:56:20Z noncom: maybe some plugins could be made..
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2014-05-28T10:59:03Z joe-w-bimedina: I'd like to have the ability to make 3d environments to test my code, would unity3d be good for that
2014-05-28T11:00:04Z noncom: joe-w-bimedina: i do not really understand how you plan integrating lisp with unity3d...
2014-05-28T11:01:03Z noncom: here are outlined some problems: https://docs.google.com/document/d/13kocjneV_tprPBXm6q63QQnCqmofRMBCJ8qjzHmxvgk/pub
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2014-05-28T11:02:04Z noncom: i think that plain opengl would be the best option. OR if you're on the path of C++ integration, then I'd advice for looking at Ogre3D the gameengine
2014-05-28T11:02:20Z noncom: Ogre3D will help you cut many corners
2014-05-28T11:02:23Z pjb: noncom: it wasn't a joke.  Those are real libraries developed by real programmers on real jobs!
2014-05-28T11:02:41Z joe-w-bimedina: no idea, I was going to use cl-opengl, but you did peak my interest. I do plan on making a Speech Reg/phoneme type Library next though...I'll check that link out.
2014-05-28T11:02:52Z pjb: noncom: now, what may be not so real is your ability to use it yourself on your job with your boss and coworkers.
2014-05-28T11:03:18Z noncom: pjb: right, when they see such code, they gonna torture me :)
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2014-05-28T11:03:49Z pjb: It goes right thru the C++ compiler or whatever language compiler they use.
2014-05-28T11:03:50Z noncom: coz it's not good code and it's not bad code... it is a code that they CANNOT UNDERSTAND
2014-05-28T11:04:29Z pjb: This is also pure Ruby code: https://www.ruby-forum.com/topic/175136#767356
2014-05-28T11:04:31Z noncom: i definitely gonna play with it, but yes you're right, they won't accept it on my job: )
2014-05-28T11:05:01Z pjb: That's why you should just start up your own company, so you can be the crazy boss imposing your crazy ideas.
2014-05-28T11:05:13Z pjb: There's no other option.
2014-05-28T11:05:32Z noncom: yeah :) and i gonna ban anyone who tries using anything but a lisp :D
2014-05-28T11:05:53Z pjb: noncom: well, there's always: http://www.ravenpack.com/company/careers/
2014-05-28T11:06:41Z noncom: joe-w-bimedina: so what kind of a program do you want to get at the end?
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2014-05-28T11:08:03Z joe-w-bimedina: I know a guy who made his own successful AI company...He specifically uses Lisp. He's written code for Hoover Dam among other things....If I could use the 3d world as input for my OpenCV functions then I could create worlds and test my track functions etc...Just an idea
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2014-05-28T11:09:56Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: a real game written in lisp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9duLa-mixQ
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2014-05-28T11:12:15Z joe-w-bimedina: Holy Crap!, I had no idea that is amazing, thank you for sharing that, I think if we all do our best to push the language forward like those guys did, There will be a real demand for Lisp anf Jobs
2014-05-28T11:12:22Z joe-w-bimedina: and Jobs
2014-05-28T11:13:13Z noncom: joe-w-bimedina: you could use unity3d, but do not expect any lisp in it (unless you integrate IronScheme, I heard people had some success), but you can craete worlds in it to serve as visual input, true. Or you could lispify Ogre3D.. or use plain opengl with cl-opengl :)
2014-05-28T11:13:35Z pjb: Corporations are not there to make amazing. They're there to make money.  And making money is done by making average products for average people with average workers.  That's because that's where the mass is.
2014-05-28T11:13:56Z noncom: yeah that bandicot game was written by a company thatmade everything in lisp. but it ended.
2014-05-28T11:14:13Z noncom: pjb: right. mediocrity is the word.
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2014-05-28T11:14:46Z noncom: joe-w-bimedina: also look into this kind of stuff: https://overtone.github.io/
2014-05-28T11:14:46Z pjb: Well, if the average was not mediocre, it would be better.
2014-05-28T11:15:20Z noncom: pjb: we'll get there when our planet will transcend to the fourth plane
2014-05-28T11:15:50Z pjb: I had hopes, for a spacefaring civilization, where everybody would be intelligent and well educated, where the average would be much higher.  It was the parallel universe where you had flying cars by 2000.
2014-05-28T11:16:21Z joe-w-bimedina: If Lisp is at the top of the game though, the money would follow, Once I make a few bucks, I'm going to get the entire OpenCV converted into Lisp, not just make wrappers. Other libraries too. I have a strong belief that is a thing that could further technology as awhole
2014-05-28T11:16:44Z joe-w-bimedina: Lispifying everything that is
2014-05-28T11:16:48Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: what is different now than for the last, say 30 years in which lisp already existed?
2014-05-28T11:17:09Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: some money can be earned, but it's ramson money: they pay you to stop doing what you're doing!
2014-05-28T11:17:13Z stassats: H4ns: joe-w-bimedina wasn't at the job
2014-05-28T11:17:16Z H4ns: ah!
2014-05-28T11:17:34Z pjb: That's how so many lisp startups get bought, and their lisp code rewritten in C++.
2014-05-28T11:18:13Z joe-w-bimedina: not sure I understand the question, H$ns
2014-05-28T11:18:21Z joe-w-bimedina: H4ns i mean
2014-05-28T11:18:38Z pjb: You're not working on a X11 systems?
2014-05-28T11:19:01Z joe-w-bimedina: x11? you mean linux
2014-05-28T11:19:05Z pjb: for example.
2014-05-28T11:19:30Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm on Ubuntu...won't use anything else...I quit windows last year
2014-05-28T11:19:30Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: why would lisp suddenly take over the world like you seem to foresee?  what has changed that would make this happen?  i mean, lisp has been there for so long and it did not take over.  something must be different now.
2014-05-28T11:19:35Z noncom: idk about CL or scheme but the only lisp that really is making success today is Clojure. you can be not very fond of it, but it is very practical and that's why it makes progress
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2014-05-28T11:19:58Z pjb: I've observed that keyboards are laggy on MacOSX and MS-Windows.  Things like H$ns occurs often there, compared to X11.
2014-05-28T11:20:02Z noncom: clojure has a unique position
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2014-05-28T11:20:35Z joe-w-bimedina: I just have a feeling, I think it can change the world(of technology)
2014-05-28T11:21:40Z noncom: joe-w-bimedina: if everything is done "right" then probably yes. but popularizing lisp would mean much social work. like conferences, classes and stuff. again, for now, I only see it is being done by clojure people. CL or Scheme people seem to live in their caves still
2014-05-28T11:21:54Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: just put your hopes too high and enjoy lisp for yourself :)
2014-05-28T11:22:15Z H4ns: _don't_ put  your hopes to high was what i meant :/
2014-05-28T11:22:38Z noncom: i would say that a programming language or paradigm is a *social* phenomenon, not technical
2014-05-28T11:22:59Z noncom: and *people* have to be targeted, not machines
2014-05-28T11:23:06Z noncom: machines are just means
2014-05-28T11:23:27Z stassats: machines are a lot more reasonable
2014-05-28T11:23:33Z noncom: people minds are the real environment for these kinds of viral things
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2014-05-28T11:24:05Z noncom: i mean you can have an UFO-level technology and no one would give a shit if you don't put it right with the people and fit in the contemporary context really well.
2014-05-28T11:24:14Z noncom: they'll just sigh and pass by
2014-05-28T11:24:20Z joe-w-bimedina: My goal is to incorporate my research into the examples I provide to get people started sooner, Thats why I provide good example programs on NN's, Decision Trees etc to help up and comers that couldn't grasp them easily like, me.............I think Geniuses can popularize Lisp by wowing the world with what Lisp can do. Making stuff that people have to have in Lisp
2014-05-28T11:24:44Z stassats: too bad that Lisp has nothing what other languages don't have
2014-05-28T11:24:51Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: lisp can't do much more than other languages.
2014-05-28T11:25:06Z joe-w-bimedina: I just have a feeling is all
2014-05-28T11:25:08Z stassats: except for smug people, maybe
2014-05-28T11:25:21Z noncom: joe-w-bimedina: for that i would advice you to look at what clojure people do and what activities they create. their social institution is remarkable
2014-05-28T11:25:46Z noncom: sitting on clojure irc i meet new people coming every day
2014-05-28T11:25:59Z noncom: their conferences gather more and more people each time
2014-05-28T11:26:07Z noncom: community is only getting stronger
2014-05-28T11:26:22Z H4ns: .. and they carefully avoid over-emphasizing their relationship to lisp and related older technologies to make sure that they're not sucked into our "been there, done that" game
2014-05-28T11:26:35Z joe-w-bimedina: could be that Lisp just helps me think better cuz I don't have to constantly hit the shift key every second, but I do think there is more
2014-05-28T11:26:37Z H4ns: which _is_ clever.
2014-05-28T11:26:56Z noncom: yeah, theyre damn clever
2014-05-28T11:27:11Z noncom: but at the same time they're zealots too
2014-05-28T11:27:43Z stassats: less talk, more code
2014-05-28T11:28:06Z H4ns: stassats: my code works for me so that i can talk :)
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2014-05-28T11:29:14Z noncom: well, i would be very glad for lisps coming up..
2014-05-28T11:29:31Z joe-w-bimedina: amen
2014-05-28T11:29:48Z stassats: that would bring all the unwashed
2014-05-28T11:30:31Z drewc: you should be... and write code in them ... and talk about them in their own IRC channel!
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2014-05-28T11:31:43Z owl-v-: hi
2014-05-28T11:31:51Z owl-v-: how do i run hello.lisp?
2014-05-28T11:32:41Z prxq: owl-v-: that's a beautiful question you have there
2014-05-28T11:33:07Z stassats: clhs load
2014-05-28T11:33:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm
2014-05-28T11:34:23Z noncom: what IDE do you use for lisping?
2014-05-28T11:34:49Z owl-v-: no ide but simple vim
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2014-05-28T11:39:10Z H4ns: owl-v-: in general, you do not "run" a lisp file.  you load it into the running lisp image from your read eval print loop (repl) and then evaluate functions defined in that file.
2014-05-28T11:39:43Z H4ns: owl-v-: you can, of course, start a lisp and have it load a file, and you can also put things into a .lisp file that do something right away, but that is not how you develop lisp programs in general.
2014-05-28T11:40:36Z owl-v-: so, this (repl) is like JVM except it has user interface?
2014-05-28T11:40:42Z stassats: putting things into the REPL is a sure way to lose your program
2014-05-28T11:40:43Z H4ns: owl-v-: and finally, most people who use lisp in this channel use emacs because it integrates the repl into the editor by the way of the slime package.
2014-05-28T11:40:59Z H4ns: owl-v-: no, the lisp image is like the jvm if you will.
2014-05-28T11:41:25Z H4ns: owl-v-: the repl is the standard interactive user interface for a running lisp image.
2014-05-28T11:42:06Z owl-v-: emacs in terminal or gui?
2014-05-28T11:42:15Z H4ns: owl-v-: does not matter.
2014-05-28T11:42:17Z stassats: both
2014-05-28T11:42:34Z owl-v-: stassats: omg!
2014-05-28T11:42:56Z stassats: anyhow, to make it more clear, (load "hello.lisp") is how you load your file
2014-05-28T11:43:54Z owl-v-: (sbcl --script hello.lisp) works too
2014-05-28T11:44:15Z stassats: sbcl --load hello.lisp is usually more appropriate
2014-05-28T11:45:18Z noncom: not so sure what is so superior in emacs.. most lisp IDEs like allegro, lispworks, eclipse+plugins  and other - all have that editor+repl integration...
2014-05-28T11:45:38Z noncom: although, sure, emacs is cool in itself
2014-05-28T11:45:38Z stassats: except that they are either not free or suck?
2014-05-28T11:46:08Z H4ns: noncom: eclipse+plugins?  is there anything available that even remotely matches what slime does?
2014-05-28T11:46:12Z |3b|: relatively actively maintained, works with multiple lisp implementations
2014-05-28T11:46:19Z noncom: stassats: hmmm, probably. can't say for eclipse+dandelin though. it seemed very cool and free but i did not try it out much
2014-05-28T11:46:32Z White_Flame: I worked with Allegro's some years back.  It was terrible, and Franz themselves advocated using SLIME.  Not sure if they've improved in the meantime or just left it as-is
2014-05-28T11:46:55Z White_Flame: basically, the editor was supremely weak, on the order of Windows Notepad.
2014-05-28T11:46:55Z noncom: eclipse dandelion - had anyone try it?
2014-05-28T11:47:11Z H4ns: White_Flame: i know of people who tell people to replace their macs with windows so that they can use the allegro ide because it is so cool
2014-05-28T11:47:35Z White_Flame: For their graphical UI builder, or regular coding?
2014-05-28T11:47:38Z H4ns: White_Flame: well, i'll admit that it is not "people" but one person who might not be completely sane.
2014-05-28T11:47:41Z H4ns: White_Flame: for coding
2014-05-28T11:47:43Z noncom: allegro have a free period, you could test it and see
2014-05-28T11:47:54Z owl-v-: i have opened hello.lisp in emacs. how do i test script?
2014-05-28T11:48:04Z White_Flame: ok.  Hopefully they did improve in the meantime then.  One thing that was decent was their inspector
2014-05-28T11:48:18Z owl-v-: i've never used emacs
2014-05-28T11:48:37Z White_Flame: I learned emacs specifically because it was the best available Lisp IDE at the time
2014-05-28T11:49:02Z H4ns: owl-v-: http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/31/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/ might help you set up slime
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2014-05-28T11:49:19Z noncom: and it still probably is. not tru
2014-05-28T11:49:28Z noncom: *not true for clojure however
2014-05-28T11:49:31Z joe-w-bimedina: You can trust White_Flame, he is my tutor....he is a real smart guy
2014-05-28T11:49:49Z White_Flame: hey Joe
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2014-05-28T11:50:03Z owl-v-: lol modern lisp. i thought racket and clojure are modern lisp
2014-05-28T11:50:11Z joe-w-bimedina: Hey D... can I call you by your name here?
2014-05-28T11:50:16Z White_Flame: owl-v-: Ctrl-c Ctrl-k compiles & loads a buffer (text window) into the lisp image.  That's like the most common keystroke used in SLIME
2014-05-28T11:50:32Z White_Flame: if you do, people won't know who you're talking to
2014-05-28T11:50:41Z noncom: oh, btw, right. the fact that emacs is a MUST for a lisp - is also a very depopularizing factor
2014-05-28T11:50:55Z owl-v-: Ctrl-c Ctrl-k is undefined
2014-05-28T11:51:02Z noncom: if you're gonna popularize lisp, better have plugins for at least Eclipse and Idea
2014-05-28T11:51:20Z White_Flame: owl-v-: did you have a Lisp repl in emacs?
2014-05-28T11:51:28Z |3b|: noncom: most of us want to use lisp, not popularize it
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2014-05-28T11:51:33Z joe-w-bimedina: White_Flame it is , the fastest typer in 4 counties
2014-05-28T11:52:04Z |3b| wouldn't want to use plugins written by people who wouldn't use the editor the plugin is for anyway
2014-05-28T11:52:33Z noncom: |3b|: that's true. but there were talks with joe-w-bimedina about popularizing lisp world-wide
2014-05-28T11:52:43Z owl-v-: White_Flame: how do i know if i have repo in emacs? i thought emacs itself has repl for its own.
2014-05-28T11:52:45Z White_Flame: owl-v-: keystrokes are generally valid for buffers of a certain type.  So if you loaded slime & started emacs, then Lisp buffers (by default, any .lisp file) will have those keystrokes enabled
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2014-05-28T11:53:03Z White_Flame: yes, emacs has "emacs lisp" that it runs on top of.  But that's not common lisp, and isn't using slime
2014-05-28T11:53:10Z White_Flame: try Alt-x slime
2014-05-28T11:53:26Z White_Flame: (in emacs speak, "Alt" is "Meta", so you'll see that as M-x slime)
2014-05-28T11:53:42Z joe-w-bimedina: I think honestly it would help technology, I don't know about you guys but I would like Star trek for real
2014-05-28T11:54:12Z noncom: so then yes, we forgot to mention popular IDE support and forget-emacs for that scenario
2014-05-28T11:54:29Z White_Flame: you should go through a setup tutorial.  There are a few parts to get right, and going through a walkthrough will better enable success
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2014-05-28T11:54:40Z White_Flame: ^ owl-v-
2014-05-28T11:54:42Z joe-w-bimedina: I can't use anything but Emacs
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2014-05-28T11:55:38Z White_Flame: owl-v-: however, if you got emacs & slime through your package manager, then hopefully things will be set up for you at least for initial runnable testing
2014-05-28T11:55:57Z White_Flame: then you can learn to do any further configuration from a running environment, if needed
2014-05-28T11:56:12Z stassats: getting slime from the package manager is bound to produce a bad experience
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2014-05-28T11:58:10Z White_Flame: If I could wish software into existence, one thing I'd change about SLIME is to make the emacs client-side code be served from Swank, so there'd be no version mismatches
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2014-05-28T11:59:08Z owl-v-: slime no match
2014-05-28T11:59:21Z White_Flame: all closured up so that each connection could run its own independent version
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2014-05-28T11:59:27Z H4ns: owl-v-: did you actually look at the page that i referred you to?
2014-05-28T11:59:29Z noncom: joe-w-bimedina: just remember that popularizing lisp would mean creating sane plugins for major freeware ides
2014-05-28T11:59:33Z joe-w-bimedina: Why don't you make it happen, the world could benefit from your intelligence
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2014-05-28T11:59:44Z joe-w-bimedina: fork it
2014-05-28T11:59:50Z joe-w-bimedina: :)
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2014-05-28T12:00:38Z owl-v-: i'm on quick lisp install
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2014-05-28T12:04:56Z owl-v-: um... arrow key doenst work on (sbcl-repl)
2014-05-28T12:06:09Z owl-v-: does 'ieee-flaots' use hard-float?
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2014-05-28T12:06:12Z stassats: it's C-arrow
2014-05-28T12:06:27Z stassats: or usually M-p
2014-05-28T12:06:30Z stassats: /M-n
2014-05-28T12:06:53Z pjb: (not (equal modern better)).
2014-05-28T12:07:29Z noncom: or creating an envitonment like unity3d, but not emacs in any way
2014-05-28T12:08:11Z pjb: White_Flame: Alt IS NOT Meta.  A-x and M-x are bound to different commands!
2014-05-28T12:08:50Z pjb: Here, A-x is bound to self-insert-command and inserts ×, while M-x is bound to execute-extended-command.
2014-05-28T12:08:58Z pjb: White_Flame: so stop confusing people!
2014-05-28T12:09:21Z pjb: White_Flame: and get yourself a decent keyboard with more modifier keys!
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2014-05-28T12:11:28Z owl-v-: requires emacs 23 or above ...
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2014-05-28T12:11:57Z owl-v-: how i'm using GUI
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2014-05-28T12:28:43Z noncom: anyone here has experience with PicoLisp?
2014-05-28T12:29:07Z owl-v-: slime not working :(
2014-05-28T12:29:19Z pjb: Well, the average age in #lisp is more like 50 than 5, so we prefer industrial strength languages rather than toys.
2014-05-28T12:29:46Z pjb: We already barely support the idiosyncrasies of emacs lisp…
2014-05-28T12:29:54Z owl-v-: no such file or directory, sbcl
2014-05-28T12:30:01Z pjb: (like (/ 1 2) --> 0).
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2014-05-28T12:30:50Z joe-w-bimedina: amen
2014-05-28T12:32:07Z noncom: so most people use CommonLisp here, right?
2014-05-28T12:32:22Z pjb: Yes.
2014-05-28T12:32:23Z H4ns: noncom: this channel is about common lisp, no matter what people in it use.
2014-05-28T12:32:25Z stassats: this being a channel for Common Lisp, safe to assume
2014-05-28T12:32:32Z joe-w-bimedina: I do
2014-05-28T12:32:33Z noncom: oh that's what!
2014-05-28T12:32:39Z pjb: There's a pico lisp channel IIRC.
2014-05-28T12:32:49Z noncom: didn't know it was only CL channel :)
2014-05-28T12:32:53Z H4ns: noncom: it is "common lisp", "Common Lisp", "CL" or even "Lisp", but not "CommonLisp"
2014-05-28T12:33:04Z H4ns: noncom: :D
2014-05-28T12:33:19Z pjb:  /topic is clear about it!
2014-05-28T12:33:19Z noncom: haha :D that C# coding right now rots my brain, you see
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2014-05-28T12:33:53Z noncom: is there a channel about lisps all-in-all?
2014-05-28T12:34:23Z pjb: #lispcafe is about anything lispers want to talk.  But probably picolispers are not in #lispcafe.  Try the pico lisp channe.
2014-05-28T12:34:24Z pjb: l
2014-05-28T12:34:51Z noncom: i did join picolisp channel 5 secs ago, yes, they're real :)
2014-05-28T12:35:08Z noncom: yeah, sometimes i'm interested in talking about lisp in general as a concept, so i better join lispcafe too
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2014-05-28T12:37:08Z owl-v-: slime running!
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2014-05-28T12:46:17Z owl-v-: brew install emacs
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2014-05-28T12:49:02Z jdz: owl-v-: or brew-install emacs-mac
2014-05-28T12:49:22Z owl-v-: there is no emacs-mac
2014-05-28T12:49:40Z owl-v-: emacs or emacs-clang-complete-async
2014-05-28T12:49:45Z owl-v-: only
2014-05-28T12:50:16Z jdz: i must have done some magic for it to appear, google should tell you more
2014-05-28T12:51:09Z jdz: but it crashes a lot less, and has quite a few goodies (like handling vanilla emacs keybindings by default)
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2014-05-28T12:51:38Z owl-v-: how slime loads hello.lisp?
2014-05-28T12:52:27Z pjb: By calling (load "hello.lisp")
2014-05-28T12:52:42Z pjb: How else would it do it?
2014-05-28T12:53:12Z pjb: Well, actually slime sends a message to swank, and it's swank who calls (load "hello.lisp").
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2014-05-28T12:59:35Z owl-v-: not working >> (load "~/workspace/SBCL/hello.lisp")
2014-05-28T13:03:14Z pjb: There's no directory named "~".
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2014-05-28T13:03:47Z pjb: Try (load #P"~/workspace/SBCL/hello.lisp") ; some implementation have a PATHNAME function that knows how to interpret "~/…" as user-homedir-pathname.
2014-05-28T13:04:46Z pjb: Notice the difference between  (load #P"~/workspace/SBCL/hello.lisp") and (load (pathname "~/workspace/SBCL/hello.lisp")).  In the first case, (user-homedir-pathname) of the user who reads the expression is taken, while in the later case, it's the  (user-homedir-pathname) of the user who executes the expression which is taken.  They may be different.
2014-05-28T13:04:49Z samebchase: owl-v-: CL's funky with paths. Use absolute paths to be safe.
2014-05-28T13:05:00Z pjb: (said otherwise, don't use physical pathnames in your programs).
2014-05-28T13:05:08Z jdz: samebchase: and you're spreading FUD
2014-05-28T13:05:33Z pjb: You need to know what you're doing.
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2014-05-28T13:06:33Z owl-v-: :(
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2014-05-28T13:06:58Z H4ns: pjb: load coerces a string passed as argument to a pathname, so what you've been claiming about #P does not really make much sense
2014-05-28T13:07:06Z H4ns: owl-v-: welcome to the world of #lisp
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2014-05-28T13:08:07Z H4ns: pjb: in other words, (load "~/bla.lisp") and (load #P"~/bla.lisp") are the same thing, and if that "does not work", then the file $HOME/bla.lisp does not exist or contains garbage
2014-05-28T13:08:29Z H4ns: owl-v-: now, you may want to be a bit more specific rather than saying "foo does not work".
2014-05-28T13:08:47Z nyef: minion: Advice on punish?
2014-05-28T13:08:47Z minion: #11940: You said `It doesn't work'.  The next violation will be punished by death.
2014-05-28T13:08:48Z pjb: CMU Common Lisp                 File-error in function LISP::INTERNAL-LOAD:  "~/rmmln.lisp" does not exist.
2014-05-28T13:08:52Z pjb: Not in all implementations.
2014-05-28T13:09:05Z H4ns: pjb: gfas
2014-05-28T13:09:28Z pjb: So you're right about load, the problem is not load, it's "~/".  Not all implementations know it.
2014-05-28T13:09:53Z jdz: pjb: why exactly are you mentioning CMUCL if owl-v- is using SBCL?
2014-05-28T13:09:56Z splittist: pjb: as you've pointed out, it's dangerously ambiguous
2014-05-28T13:10:10Z pjb: Yes, I'm confused.
2014-05-28T13:10:25Z H4ns: who's the smuggest in the house?
2014-05-28T13:10:27Z owl-v-: does not work >> http://bcas.tv/paste/results/YgBzWT91.html
2014-05-28T13:10:28Z pjb: I've got a cold, I must be delirious with the fever.
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2014-05-28T13:10:58Z H4ns: owl-v-: see, your lisp file contains a hashmark as the first character
2014-05-28T13:11:00Z ahungry: yea I ran into ~ not usable on sbcl under windows
2014-05-28T13:11:08Z ahungry: I had to use (user-homedir-pathname)
2014-05-28T13:11:11Z H4ns: owl-v-: and a ! as second character
2014-05-28T13:11:25Z pjb: owl-v-: you need to check your *default-pathname-defaults*.
2014-05-28T13:11:26Z H4ns: owl-v-: it is good practice to first read the error message and try to understand it.
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2014-05-28T13:11:30Z H4ns: pjb: no.
2014-05-28T13:11:37Z pjb: H4ns: check his paste.
2014-05-28T13:11:48Z H4ns: pjb: they've got to remove the hashbang line.
2014-05-28T13:11:59Z pjb: If it's not an absolute pathname, it may defer to getcwd.
2014-05-28T13:12:15Z owl-v-: this is my hello.lisp >> http://bcas.tv/paste/results/zSLGJz85.html
2014-05-28T13:12:38Z H4ns: owl-v-: that is not the file that you've tried to load when you got the erorr that you pasted
2014-05-28T13:12:40Z jdz: owl-v-: lies!
2014-05-28T13:12:44Z H4ns: owl-v-: and use paste.lisp.org
2014-05-28T13:12:55Z owl-v-: yes it was
2014-05-28T13:13:03Z H4ns: owl-v-: have it your way.
2014-05-28T13:13:03Z pjb: To have (load "workspace/SBCL/hello.lisp") find the file, you need (setf *default-pathname-defaults* (user-homedir-pathname)) first.
2014-05-28T13:13:17Z H4ns: can't someone stop the mad man?
2014-05-28T13:14:02Z pjb: And the question is why you don't have a dispatch reader macro for #! any sane implementation, such as clisp has one…
2014-05-28T13:14:36Z pjb: See http://jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk/~csr21/git/sbcl/src/cold/shebang.lisp
2014-05-28T13:14:50Z pjb: Ah no, not this one.
2014-05-28T13:15:29Z pjb: This one: http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/823
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2014-05-28T13:17:00Z owl-v-: omg
2014-05-28T13:17:07Z owl-v-: do i have to refresh slim?
2014-05-28T13:17:10Z owl-v-: do i have to refresh slim3?
2014-05-28T13:17:13Z owl-v-: do i have to refresh slime?
2014-05-28T13:17:22Z pjb: What for?
2014-05-28T13:18:03Z owl-v-: after editing script. be cause i removed the first line and the slime still complains about #!
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2014-05-28T13:18:17Z pjb: Did you save the file?
2014-05-28T13:18:19Z pjb: C-x C-s
2014-05-28T13:18:36Z owl-v-: Ctrl-x s y
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2014-05-28T13:18:52Z pjb: But why don't you just put a dispatch reader macro for it?  (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\! (lambda (stream char n) (declare (ignore char n)) (read-line stream nil nil) (values)))
2014-05-28T13:19:16Z jdz: owl-v-: are you sure you're editing the same file you're trying to load?
2014-05-28T13:19:38Z owl-v-: there is only one file "hello.lisp"
2014-05-28T13:20:01Z owl-v-: wait
2014-05-28T13:20:05Z jdz: owl-v-: prove it to yourself, not to me, because i don't have access to your machine
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2014-05-28T13:20:17Z pjb: locate hello.lisp|wc -l --> 751 here.
2014-05-28T13:20:29Z owl-v-: fml
2014-05-28T13:20:49Z owl-v-: i was editing wrong file
2014-05-28T13:20:53Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2014-05-28T13:20:56Z H4ns: no really?
2014-05-28T13:21:14Z owl-v-: which i (cp fi.lisp hello.lisp)
2014-05-28T13:21:15Z splittist: owl-v-: in any case, if you want to write hello to standard output, you're going about things the wrong way. It's like you've been a skier, and you've come to the bicycle forum. We're all telling you how to ski on your bicycle.
2014-05-28T13:21:43Z pjb: Well, that's another question of deploying lisp programs.
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2014-05-28T13:21:50Z pjb: There are so many choices.
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2014-05-28T13:22:19Z owl-v-: how do i compile it?
2014-05-28T13:22:27Z pjb: But you have the same problem in bash.  You can define functions in a file.sh file, source it and call those functions, or you can write a #!/bin/bash script.
2014-05-28T13:22:35Z pjb: You can also compile bash scripts.
2014-05-28T13:22:41Z pjb: (compile-file "hello.lisp")
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2014-05-28T13:23:05Z pjb: owl-v-: but why do you care about compiling it?
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2014-05-28T13:23:08Z H4ns: owl-v-: don't worry about compiling for now.  most lisps compile everything on the fly.
2014-05-28T13:24:58Z pjb: If you're writing a program that needs compilation, you're probably wanting to use asdf actually.
2014-05-28T13:25:29Z pjb: I mean, one doesn't go calling gcc -o hw hw.c && ./hw ; one writes a Makefile and types make hw.
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2014-05-28T13:27:25Z nyef: Occasionally, for small one-off programs, one might call gcc directly, but that quickly becomes untenable, and the convenience of being able to say "make" and have the right thing happen just about all the time very quickly outweighs calling gcc directly even for a single-file program.
2014-05-28T13:27:29Z owl-v-: i thought here was compile lisp so that there is no need to recompile again
2014-05-28T13:27:56Z owl-v-: just like java-bytecode
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2014-05-28T13:28:31Z nyef: And you don't call your java compiler directly, EITHER, otherwise we wouldn't have ANT and scores of other build tools.
2014-05-28T13:28:36Z dlowe: you recompile when your source code changes, no?
2014-05-28T13:28:57Z jdz: owl-v-: java bytecode actually is being compiled (JIT) every time you run the code, wherease code compiled with SBCL is machine code, which is not being post-processed
2014-05-28T13:29:40Z owl-v-: but i do compile for production
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2014-05-28T13:29:48Z owl-v-: or "production"
2014-05-28T13:30:00Z clop: hi, is there a way to restrict hunchentoot so that it will only accept connections from localhost?  (for putting a web-based front-end on a native Lisp program at localhost:port)?
2014-05-28T13:30:05Z H4ns: owl-v-: many here use buildapp to create standalone executables.
2014-05-28T13:30:55Z nyef: clop: Obvious answers are "look for a way to control the ``listen address'', whatever the concept is called in Hunchentoot" and "the word of the day is ``firewall''".
2014-05-28T13:31:12Z H4ns: clop: the acceptor class has an :address argument that you can use
2014-05-28T13:31:23Z nyef: And the belt-and-bracers approach is "do both".
2014-05-28T13:31:59Z H4ns: clop: the challenge is to find out how to pass arguments to the acceptor instantiation, but it is not very hard to do.  just a bit inconvenient, iirc.
2014-05-28T13:32:28Z owl-v-: lol build app "any errors will land you in the interactive debugger"
2014-05-28T13:32:56Z nyef: Yeah, drop to interactive debugger isn't always a useful behavior.
2014-05-28T13:33:38Z clop: thanks guys, i'll try looking into how to use that
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2014-05-28T13:34:27Z ahungry: clop, if you use *nix and iptables, the rule looks like: iptables -A INPUT -p tcp --dport 12345 -j ACCEPT (assuming a default policy of reject/deny, or a final rule of the same)
2014-05-28T13:34:56Z owl-v-: where do u use lisp and why?
2014-05-28T13:35:16Z stassats: everywhere, because i drank the kool aid
2014-05-28T13:35:21Z H4ns: owl-v-: i use it at work because i like writing lisp programs.
2014-05-28T13:35:42Z clop: aha, well, this is for a (hopefully) end-user app, so I want to try to make it as secure as possible without them having to set up their own firewall (of course if they have a firewall that's even better)
2014-05-28T13:35:54Z owl-v-: H4ns: what do u do?
2014-05-28T13:36:00Z H4ns: owl-v-: i'm a programmer :)
2014-05-28T13:36:17Z owl-v-: H4ns: 4 living?
2014-05-28T13:36:37Z H4ns: owl-v-: oh please.  yes.
2014-05-28T13:37:23Z ahungry: my work is primarily php but i've talked to them about CL and been allowed to set up a few projects in it, i do my hobby stuff (web games multiplayer/CLi utility things) in it almost exclusively though
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2014-05-28T13:37:45Z ahungry: also super useful if you plan to do any emacs customization since elisp is pretty close
2014-05-28T13:37:51Z owl-v-: H4ns: like AI?
2014-05-28T13:38:58Z ahungry: owl-v-: http://pseudo.ahungry.com , multiplayer websocket game (browser based) all in common lisp/parenscript (lisp like syntax that compiles to js) - backedn is full CL though
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2014-05-28T13:39:48Z owl-v-: ahungry: cool. game with lisp.
2014-05-28T13:40:30Z ahungry: really good for game server
2014-05-28T13:40:39Z ahungry: can make updates to the server without any downtime
2014-05-28T13:41:03Z ahungry: also dont need to make a bunch of admin tools to do things like read out a list of players, or give all players a level up etc
2014-05-28T13:41:07Z owl-v-: and use node.js for network?
2014-05-28T13:41:12Z ahungry: nope clws
2014-05-28T13:41:15Z ahungry: common lisp web scokets
2014-05-28T13:42:07Z ahungry: at first I used socket.io (a node.js tool) and had the lisp listening on a usocket port and talk back and forth, but just recently revamped with all the clws code so I can communicate with the clients directly instead of my weird hodgepoge
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2014-05-28T13:45:06Z owl-v-:  sbcl+clws ?
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2014-05-28T13:48:23Z owl-v-: hm
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2014-05-28T13:52:27Z owl-v-: ahungry: is it easier to write in lisp than in javascript when u programmed server?
2014-05-28T13:52:27Z owl-v-: (server side)
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2014-05-28T13:52:56Z pjb: Yes.
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2014-05-28T13:54:57Z owl-v-: pjb: what do u mean "yes"?
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2014-05-28T13:55:22Z pjb: Yes, is it easier to write in lisp than in javascript when u programmed server.
2014-05-28T13:55:52Z pjb: What did you expect "yes" to mean, when you ask a yes/no question?
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2014-05-28T13:56:50Z owl-v-: pjb: u jumped out of nowhere with "yes" when i asked ahungry.
2014-05-28T13:57:01Z owl-v-: lol
2014-05-28T13:57:07Z pjb: That's your fault. You should have /msg ahungry instead.
2014-05-28T13:57:23Z billstclair: Well, a lot depends on the tools you have in your web server language toolkit. node.js has quite a few nice tools. It's very lightweight and can serve a huge number of clients.
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2014-05-28T13:57:51Z billstclair: I still prefer writing lisp to js, but others differ
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2014-05-28T13:58:37Z owl-v-: pjb: anyway, i would imagine javascript code would be smaller (code line wise)
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2014-05-28T13:59:05Z pjb: This is a meaningless sentence.
2014-05-28T14:00:49Z owl-v-: pjb: i know
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2014-05-28T14:01:11Z billstclair: It would be interesting to build a lisp web server using the node.js idea of doing everything with thunks and no user threads
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2014-05-28T14:01:52Z dlowe: probably be fairly easy to hack up in iolib
2014-05-28T14:02:43Z owl-v-: i guess in this benchmark sbcl didn't use library >> http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=sbcl&lang2=v8&data=u64
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2014-05-28T14:03:25Z owl-v-: lol more memory and more code *shrug*
2014-05-28T14:03:34Z owl-v-: but way faster
2014-05-28T14:04:16Z dlowe: owl-v-: are you planning to program anything in lisp?
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2014-05-28T14:04:56Z owl-v-: i'm learning lisp. and i'm hoping to use it in AI.
2014-05-28T14:05:32Z owl-v-: AI i mean robotics
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2014-05-28T14:06:54Z owl-v-: if js to sbcl then https://github.com/rockbot/vektor to what?
2014-05-28T14:10:21Z Bike: http://cliki.net/linear%20algebra
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2014-05-28T14:25:13Z Adeon_ is now known as Noeda
2014-05-28T14:25:19Z drewc: billstclair: you mean like araneida?
2014-05-28T14:25:31Z billstclair: Don't know araneida
2014-05-28T14:25:47Z drewc: minion: araneida?
2014-05-28T14:25:47Z minion: araneida: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``books''.
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2014-05-28T14:26:03Z drewc: errr
2014-05-28T14:26:21Z drewc: http://www.cliki.net/araneida
2014-05-28T14:26:46Z stassats: better forget what araneida is
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2014-05-28T14:28:09Z billstclair: Looks like it allowed threadless request handling, but didn't have everything necessary to pass off to another handler while waiting for file or other TCP I/O
2014-05-28T14:28:20Z drewc: stassats: while I have to agree 100%, "It would be interesting to build a lisp web server using the node.js idea of doing everything with thunks and no user threads" is the ANSI common lisp way of doing things as well, and araneida was the first web server I used.
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2014-05-28T14:29:29Z billstclair: Maybe dlowe's idea of mixing it with iolib could get that, but I've never used iolib, so I can't say
2014-05-28T14:29:31Z drewc: billstclair: well, your version of serve-event must be much different than mine was.
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2014-05-28T14:30:47Z dlowe: drewc: were there other implementations than cmucl that supported serve-event?
2014-05-28T14:30:50Z billstclair: node.js dispatches to use code, but then handles another connection when that user code returns after registering a handler for any long-running operation (e.g. file I/O). It takes a little getting used to, but is a very efficient use of CPU power
2014-05-28T14:31:01Z billstclair: user code
2014-05-28T14:31:12Z billstclair: I don't know what serve-event is
2014-05-28T14:31:19Z nyef: dlowe: SBCL inherited serve-event from CMUCL, but (fortunately for sanity) gutted some of the crazier bits.
2014-05-28T14:32:15Z owl-v-: just curious, why lisp is not mainstream language? (compared to python, ruby, java, c/cpp, javascript)
2014-05-28T14:32:24Z dlowe: owl-v-: that's a subject of much debate
2014-05-28T14:32:30Z drewc: dlowe: yes ... for example, cliki.net used to run of it using sbcl 0.8.something-or-other
2014-05-28T14:32:32Z foom: serve-event is still pretty terrible.
2014-05-28T14:32:43Z pjb: owl-v-: because people keep asking why lisp is not mainstream languages instead of writing lisp code.
2014-05-28T14:33:02Z owl-v-: that's all?
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2014-05-28T14:33:07Z pjb: Yes.
2014-05-28T14:33:18Z owl-v-: or is it because learning curve?
2014-05-28T14:33:41Z dlowe: The idea behind serve-event wasn't terrible, though.
2014-05-28T14:33:41Z pjb: owl-v-: oh right, I forgot.  They just use programming languages that have no learning curve.
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2014-05-28T14:34:35Z owl-v-: u mean "less cost in transition"
2014-05-28T14:34:44Z drewc: foom: agreed, but I started out lisping using araneida, hence my comment to billstclair.
2014-05-28T14:35:04Z pjb: owl-v-: if you feel lisp is costly in transition, then drop it!
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2014-05-28T14:35:33Z drewc: owl-v-: because lisp requires full syntax and spelling, so much to costly for "u" ;)
2014-05-28T14:35:56Z owl-v-: pjb: just for a note, i enjoyed solving math problems in Clojure, lisp for jvm
2014-05-28T14:35:59Z billstclair: One reason lisp is not mainstream is because though the language itself has a fairly big library, it was missing portable libraries for common things until fairly recently.
2014-05-28T14:36:46Z p_l: outside of expensive commercial implementations
2014-05-28T14:36:47Z billstclair: And it wasn't until Quicklisp that using the portable libraries that were there finally became trivial
2014-05-28T14:37:25Z Xach: using the portable libraries you already knew about
2014-05-28T14:37:37Z p_l: there's also the fact that it had little visibility even when used - people rarely care what Nth faceless server backend is running
2014-05-28T14:37:37Z Xach: starting from scratch and finding out what is available is still too hard
2014-05-28T14:37:46Z billstclair: Yes. But beautifully packaged by Xach so we didn't have to think about using them
2014-05-28T14:37:58Z Xach: quickdocs.org helps a bit
2014-05-28T14:37:59Z mcsontos quit (Quit: Leaving)
2014-05-28T14:38:01Z Xach: still much to be done
2014-05-28T14:38:19Z drewc: owl-v-: I was offered a contract in clojure a long time ago. Instead I took the CL contract... the clojure company is long gone .... the CL company is google now. So, which is more mainstream? :D
2014-05-28T14:38:20Z foom: Go to http://google.com/flights/ and do some searches. You're using some secret lisp code there. :)
2014-05-28T14:38:38Z p_l: while QPX is overused example, I'd like to point that 99% of people, including programmers (with possible exception of lispers, because QPX), have no idea what and how does airline fare search
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2014-05-28T14:39:05Z p_l: IIRC there are *three* companies providing the service on scale usable by bigger airlines
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2014-05-28T14:39:17Z p_l: three. Globally.
2014-05-28T14:40:03Z p_l: Similarly, users of Piano probably don't care what it is written in, as long as it works (it's also a CL application)
2014-05-28T14:40:46Z stassats: an IBM machine in Cobol
2014-05-28T14:41:27Z Eyes is now known as Eyess
2014-05-28T14:41:46Z p_l: I actually suspect significant amounts of assembly and possibly PL/I :)
2014-05-28T14:41:48Z owl-v-: i can't understand what's his saying because the bad audio... >> http://youtu.be/2Ya0p0o2DNA
2014-05-28T14:42:04Z drewc: p_l : and all three use the IBM 9081!
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2014-05-28T14:43:11Z p_l: too many IBM things with 9081 name ;>
2014-05-28T14:43:28Z p_l: pretty sure KLM/AF don't use the original 9081
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2014-05-28T14:44:26Z p_l: they did iirc a completely new software system few years ago (~2010), on mainframes with 3270 terminals :D
2014-05-28T14:48:00Z foom: heh, searching for IBM 9081 found me a job ad from united airlines in 1984, goo.gl/xvMVT5 (top right corner)
2014-05-28T14:48:35Z foom: "Fact: The nation's number one airline has made a commitment to become the nation's number one computer user."
2014-05-28T14:49:02Z pjb: Is that a fact from the 60'?
2014-05-28T14:49:43Z Bike: just said 1984...
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2014-05-28T14:50:25Z pjb: Right.
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2014-05-28T14:53:44Z owl-v-: how do i print a value?
2014-05-28T14:54:02Z Xach: the print function is one way
2014-05-28T14:54:48Z pjb: Well, using iolib to open a socket to a network printer port and sending a string representation of the value should do it.
2014-05-28T14:55:27Z owl-v-: lol
2014-05-28T14:55:45Z owl-v-: how about put value into stdout?
2014-05-28T14:55:52Z Xach: owl-v-: print
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2014-05-28T14:56:48Z Xach: www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ is a good way to get started.
2014-05-28T14:58:22Z owl-v-: this old man using clojure >> http://youtu.be/Av0PQDVTP4A
2014-05-28T14:58:42Z Xach: If you'd like to discuss clojure, please use a different channel.
2014-05-28T14:59:02Z p_l: Xach: owl-v- is trying CL after Clojure
2014-05-28T14:59:18Z Xach: p_l: If you'd like to discuss it with him, please use private messages.
2014-05-28T14:59:22Z owl-v-: yah! free ebook!
2014-05-28T15:00:44Z reb: p_l: What is Piano?
2014-05-28T15:01:13Z Xach: reb: http://www.lissys.demon.co.uk/
2014-05-28T15:01:37Z owl-v-: if clojure to java then SBCL to cpp?
2014-05-28T15:01:49Z drewc: reb: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5
2014-05-28T15:01:52Z p_l: owl-v-: no, SBCL compiles directly to native code
2014-05-28T15:02:42Z owl-v-: hm... cheap java programmers...
2014-05-28T15:03:27Z reb: thanks
2014-05-28T15:04:14Z pjb: owl-v-: What do you think?
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2014-05-28T15:05:52Z owl-v-: if i own a big company then use clojure so that cheap programmers can write code and use that in clojure
2014-05-28T15:06:11Z pjb: Is it because cheap programmers can write code and use that in clojure that you came to me?
2014-05-28T15:06:15Z drewc: hence why you do not own a company
2014-05-28T15:06:44Z owl-v-: i don't have vision yet. vision like Jobs.
2014-05-28T15:06:58Z pjb: Earlier you said cheap programmers can write code and use that in clojure?
2014-05-28T15:07:05Z Xach: owl-v-: if you'd like to discuss and ask questions about common lisp, feel free to continue. otherwise, please go away.
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2014-05-28T15:07:37Z owl-v-: how do i use c library in sbcl?
2014-05-28T15:07:46Z pjb: with cffi
2014-05-28T15:07:53Z Xach: owl-v-: through the CFFI library.
2014-05-28T15:07:58Z owl-v-: and cpp also?
2014-05-28T15:07:59Z Xach: That is how you use a C library in any Common Lisp.
2014-05-28T15:08:00Z pjb: minion: tell owl-v- about cffi
2014-05-28T15:08:00Z minion: cffi: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/cffi
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2014-05-28T15:08:07Z p_l: ehh
2014-05-28T15:08:17Z pjb: That means go read that url.
2014-05-28T15:08:20Z owl-v-: lol minion
2014-05-28T15:08:28Z p_l: http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/
2014-05-28T15:08:30Z Xach: owl-v-: No, CFFI is for C libraries, or C++ libraries that also have C interfaces.
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2014-05-28T15:09:20Z owl-v-: why don't we have cpp interface?
2014-05-28T15:09:25Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2014-05-28T15:09:38Z xristos: nobody cares about cpp
2014-05-28T15:09:43Z ``Erik: swig 2 will try to build appropriate wrappers for the c++ parts, but it'll be ugly
2014-05-28T15:09:49Z pjb: Because lisp macros are better than C macros, so there's no point in interfacing with the C Pre Processor. DUH!
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2014-05-28T15:10:15Z ``Erik: <-- assuming owl-v- means c++, not cpp
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2014-05-28T15:10:49Z owl-v-: not (equal c++ cpp) ?
2014-05-28T15:10:59Z pjb: Nope.
2014-05-28T15:11:01Z H4ns: ``Erik: that is because you're sane
2014-05-28T15:11:35Z pjb: cpp has been the C pre processor since like FOREVER!
2014-05-28T15:11:41Z ``Erik: cpp is the "C pre-processor", the extensions for C++ were originally C, cxx, c++, and cc... :)
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2014-05-28T15:11:52Z owl-v-: ok -> (from C and C++ headers)
2014-05-28T15:12:34Z owl-v-: which means i get to have relatively cheap c++ programmers once i own a company.
2014-05-28T15:12:43Z owl-v-: still java programmers are cheaper
2014-05-28T15:12:50Z owl-v-: i think
2014-05-28T15:13:02Z pjb: Good luck building any kind of product and a company on cheap programmers.
2014-05-28T15:13:19Z Xach: owl-v-: Go away.
2014-05-28T15:14:46Z owl-v-: xach: the topic >> Topic for #lisp is: Common Lisp
2014-05-28T15:15:11Z dim: 行 causes a Character decoding error in a ;-comment
2014-05-28T15:15:23Z Xach: It is not the cost of java programmers, or what you will do when you own a company, or C++.
2014-05-28T15:15:28Z dim: is it possible to instruct CL (SBCL, CCL, etc) that the source code are to be read in UTF-8?
2014-05-28T15:15:31Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-05-28T15:15:41Z pjb: owl-v-: yes, and you don't say anything on topic. That's why you're asked to leave. Or given the M-x doctor treatment.
2014-05-28T15:15:52Z Xach: dim: it varies by implementation. SBCL uses the locale mechanism to set its default encoding.
2014-05-28T15:15:53Z ``Erik: dim: I have this in my .sbclrc for that reason: (setf sb-impl::*default-external-format* :utf-8)
2014-05-28T15:15:57Z nyef: dim: Something about default-external-format?
2014-05-28T15:16:11Z stassats: specify it in .asd
2014-05-28T15:16:18Z pjb: dim: put   #+asdf-unicode :encoding #+asdf-unicode :utf-8 in the asdf system file.
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2014-05-28T15:16:28Z p_l nicks the line from ``Erik 
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2014-05-28T15:17:15Z stassats: setting sb-impl::*default-external-format* is not the best idea
2014-05-28T15:17:31Z dim: pjb: thanks
2014-05-28T15:17:40Z dim: C-c C-l will know about that ?
2014-05-28T15:18:06Z foom: Doesn't asdf default to utf-8 already?
2014-05-28T15:18:20Z foom: (I think it does)
2014-05-28T15:18:22Z stassats: dim: no
2014-05-28T15:18:30Z dim: well asdf and quicklisp have no problem loading the code apparently
2014-05-28T15:18:44Z dim: it's only when doing C-c C-l to spot all the warnings that I can see the comment encoding problems
2014-05-28T15:18:54Z dim: maybe I should just stop caring
2014-05-28T15:18:59Z dim: but it's unclean
2014-05-28T15:19:12Z Xach: dim: i arrange my environment variables so it uses UTF-8.
2014-05-28T15:19:22Z foom: Probably sbcl should default to utf-8 sourcecode, too.
2014-05-28T15:19:30Z dim: how can I check?
2014-05-28T15:19:47Z foom: I mean, should as in "doesn't, but ought to"
2014-05-28T15:19:48Z dim: here, sb-impl::*default-external-format* is :us-ascii
2014-05-28T15:19:55Z Xach: dim: the "locale" shell command shows what sbcl is going to use
2014-05-28T15:20:10Z dim: oh, my default locale is C
2014-05-28T15:20:25Z Xach: mine is en_US.UTF-8
2014-05-28T15:20:26Z dim: ok, I know what to change, will review impacts and do that later
2014-05-28T15:20:31Z dim: thanks
2014-05-28T15:20:31Z Xach: but what you need will vary by OS
2014-05-28T15:20:41Z dim: yeah
2014-05-28T15:20:44Z foom: it's unfortunate that C.UTF-8 is not ubiquitous yet.
2014-05-28T15:20:59Z dim: impacts on PostgreSQL initdb and such are going to be noticeable I guess, but should be for the best
2014-05-28T15:21:09Z dim: utf-8 is only 22 years old, you know
2014-05-28T15:21:15Z dim: someday we will have it.
2014-05-28T15:21:41Z pjb: Well, C.UTF-8 sounds like an oxymoron.
2014-05-28T15:21:47Z foom: might sound like it, but it's not
2014-05-28T15:21:59Z pjb: Since C doesn't have any character type, how could it know or care about encoding them in utf-8?
2014-05-28T15:22:10Z foom: huh?
2014-05-28T15:22:38Z Xach: Perhaps you could discuss C's character type via private messages.
2014-05-28T15:23:07Z pjb: or perhaps we could insist on suggesting en_US.UTF-8 instead of C.UTF-8.
2014-05-28T15:23:15Z foom: ...
2014-05-28T15:23:52Z Xach: I think that value is only appropriate for my combination of desired language and how my OS refers to UTF-8 encoding.
2014-05-28T15:23:56Z foom: en_US.UTF-8 isn't a reasonable change to the default, because it brings en_US localization into play. C.UTF-8 is just like the default default ("C"), except it uses the utf-8 charset.
2014-05-28T15:24:39Z Xach has seen variations, possibly en_US.UTF8 or en_US.utf8 or something
2014-05-28T15:24:52Z pjb: Well, I feel the POSIX localization ontology is insufficient anyways.
2014-05-28T15:25:03Z p_l: POSIX.UTF-8 would be nice
2014-05-28T15:25:47Z foom: POSIX.UTF-8 is an alias for C.UTF-8, as POSIX is an alias for C.
2014-05-28T15:25:52Z dim: wait until you're being told that windows is POSIX enough that you should care about the encoding spellings it proposes
2014-05-28T15:25:55Z owl-v-: in clojure i can do (let [v (list 1 2 3)]  (v 0) )
2014-05-28T15:26:09Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2014-05-28T15:26:30Z owl-v-: the (let) defines value only in that '(' and ')'
2014-05-28T15:26:36Z dim: in CL, (let ((v (list 1 2 3))) (elt v 0))
2014-05-28T15:26:46Z pjb: owl-v-: go read http://cliki.net/Online%20Tutorial
2014-05-28T15:26:57Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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2014-05-28T15:27:47Z owl-v-: lol i have 132 tabs just for lisp
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2014-05-28T15:31:51Z owl-v-: is CL direct dependent of lisp and scheme is not?
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2014-05-28T15:32:30Z dim: CL and scheme are both in the LISP family
2014-05-28T15:32:40Z pjb: descendant
2014-05-28T15:33:16Z copec: I'm a newb:  but there are some fundamental differences of which you would want to implement compiler/repl up between CL and scheme
2014-05-28T15:33:40Z pjb: And in English, that would be?
2014-05-28T15:34:08Z copec: I believe scheme uses all dynamic namespace for symbols for instance
2014-05-28T15:34:32Z H4ns: what is wrong with today?
2014-05-28T15:35:02Z copec: where CL uses lexical for everything below the toplevel, unless declared otherwise
2014-05-28T15:35:30Z Xach: copec: no.
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2014-05-28T15:35:42Z copec: <- newb
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2014-05-28T15:36:22Z copec looks up stuff
2014-05-28T15:37:11Z copec: "Like most modern programming languages and unlike earlier Lisps such as Maclisp or Emacs Lisp, Scheme is lexically scoped: all possible variable bindings in a program unit can be analyzed by reading the text of the program unit without consideration of the contexts in which it may be called. "
2014-05-28T15:37:14Z copec: ^wikipedia
2014-05-28T15:37:30Z pjb: So?
2014-05-28T15:37:47Z pjb: Notice also that there's #scheme for scheme questions.
2014-05-28T15:37:54Z pjb: Do you have an Common Lisp question?
2014-05-28T15:38:11Z marsbot is now known as marsam
2014-05-28T15:38:59Z Xach: There's a Scheme written in Common Lisp called Pseudoscheme. I could not get it to build, but I didn't try especially hard.
2014-05-28T15:39:54Z pjb: It works nicely in clisp.  It has problems in ccl.
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2014-05-28T15:40:16Z copec: Did you author any of the stuff linked from cliki.net pjb?
2014-05-28T15:40:34Z pjb: A couple of pages, not many.
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2014-05-28T15:43:29Z copec: How long have you been programming CL?
2014-05-28T15:43:54Z ikki quit (Quit: Saliendo)
2014-05-28T15:44:06Z pjb: My oldest CL code dates 1996, IIRC.
2014-05-28T15:44:33Z owl-v-: ahungry: u still have js script in the github
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2014-05-28T15:45:19Z pjb: grep says 1994 .
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2014-05-28T15:47:28Z copec: nice
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2014-05-28T15:52:18Z ahungry: owl-v-: the js i have in the github is third party js, jquery (although used minimally) and less.js, which is a stylesheet renderer
2014-05-28T15:52:22Z Nobel quit (Quit: Page closed)
2014-05-28T15:52:40Z ahungry: but like I mentioned, all the parenscript is just a generator for js in the browser
2014-05-28T15:53:05Z pjb: copec: if that interests you, you might be interested by https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html
2014-05-28T15:53:14Z owl-v-: ahungry: that socket.io lisp-link.js ?
2014-05-28T15:53:30Z ahungry: ah yea, it is still in there but as of my push last night, no longer required for the game in any way
2014-05-28T15:53:47Z ahungry: that is the "hodgepodge" I had as a middle layer to use socket.io to send data between my CL server and the browser
2014-05-28T15:53:57Z ahungry: but now im using clws, and simply haven't removed that file from the repo
2014-05-28T15:53:58Z owl-v-: pjb: what link is that? i get warning >> This is probably not the site you are looking for!
2014-05-28T15:54:53Z ahungry: vimprobable2 gives "Unacceptable TLS certificate" warning, so that site is likely just using a bad or expired cert
2014-05-28T15:55:07Z copec: pjb:  That is very cool
2014-05-28T15:55:36Z owl-v-: oh
2014-05-28T15:56:12Z DR2: Greetings All, Does anyone have an especially quick implementation for calculating some sort of "diff" between two very large (10^50th atoms) sexpressions?  I've written a couple of my own and found them to yield results that can be difficult to interpret efficiently.  I also tried out diff-sexpr, but it's too slow (it can't benefit from memoization because of its destructive updates).
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2014-05-28T15:57:11Z owl-v-: if u r building modular software, would u make separate process for network.io and logic for whatever like game logic?
2014-05-28T15:57:13Z DR2: (there's a lot of structure sharing -- the 10^50th is a number that diff-sexpr reported when calculating tree-size, but it doesn't surprise me that much, as I've seen numbers like it before)
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2014-05-28T15:59:11Z ahungry: owl-v-: if you were wanting parts to be modular, I'd say yes, with quicklisp you can easily load things you abstract out as separate packages
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2014-05-28T15:59:30Z ahungry: like, I make use of my "glyphs" package, which is in a separate git repo throughout my other projects
2014-05-28T15:59:55Z ahungry: and all it takes is a line in my asd file and including in my use portion of my package definition for the project using it
2014-05-28T16:01:16Z owl-v-: what! lisp can do this??? >> http://youtu.be/6pMyhrDcMzw
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2014-05-28T16:01:52Z p_l: owl-v-: when you know some of details of low level... it makes sense and is easy
2014-05-28T16:02:02Z p_l: I actually recall seeing someone doing that with C
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2014-05-28T16:09:53Z pjb: p_l: yes, lisp envy exists too. For a couple of versions they had a hack in Xcode do that with class categories, so you could fake it in Objective-C too.  They dropped the feature of course, too much of a gas-work.
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2014-05-28T16:10:24Z p_l: pjb: the guy who did it wasn't much for lisp envy
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2014-05-28T16:10:41Z p_l: it was more like "I'm using C like assembly because it's fun"
2014-05-28T16:10:42Z drewc: p_l: does Linux count? Linux is written in C, which it can compile ... SBCL is written in SBCL, which it can COMPILE .... and there you go!
2014-05-28T16:10:59Z pjb: owl-v-: the difference is that in lisp, it's done with very little means, while in other languages or environment, it requires major scale tooling.
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2014-05-28T16:11:46Z p_l: drewc: Linux is not a compiler. And the thing I mentioned was a guy writing an OpenGL game using C that he could modify at runtime while developing without losing state
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2014-05-28T16:11:54Z pjb: drewc: it does count, and there are even loadable modules, so you can change a live kernel, and there is even a scheme module so you can load scheme code into the live kernel!
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2014-05-28T16:12:14Z pjb: Hey newbies, here is a fun project: write a linux module to evaluate CL code in the kernel!
2014-05-28T16:12:17Z p_l: pjb: there's also a JIT virtual machine
2014-05-28T16:12:31Z drewc: p_l: is C a compiler?
2014-05-28T16:12:43Z p_l: drewc: no, but a C compiler is ;)
2014-05-28T16:12:53Z pjb: There are also C interpreters.
2014-05-28T16:13:04Z p_l: yep
2014-05-28T16:13:16Z drewc thinks about Zeta-C and does a full circle.
2014-05-28T16:14:11Z pjb: Vacietis
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2014-05-28T16:14:57Z jdz: Vācietis
2014-05-28T16:15:04Z jdz: proper spelling
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2014-05-28T16:16:36Z drewc was only trying to talk about lisp and not C ... hope it was a success.
2014-05-28T16:17:04Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2014-05-28T16:18:09Z noncom: hi
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2014-05-28T16:18:27Z drewc: g'morning beach!
2014-05-28T16:18:55Z beach: Quite a chaotic day on #lisp, I see.
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2014-05-28T16:21:05Z oleo: morning all
2014-05-28T16:21:18Z beach: Hello oleo!
2014-05-28T16:21:40Z drewc: beach: well, at least now it is clojure and not arc that brings in the newbs... I got sick of trying to explain why PG was not so great :D
2014-05-28T16:21:41Z oleo: hi beach :)
2014-05-28T16:22:09Z beach: drewc: Heh!
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2014-05-28T16:38:08Z owl-v-: if clojure to vector then sbcl to ?
2014-05-28T16:38:48Z beach: owl-v-: What is that supposed to mean?
2014-05-28T16:39:30Z Xach: You may find it helpful to learn Common Lisp on its own terms, rather than in contrast to something you already know, like Clojure.
2014-05-28T16:40:37Z drewc: sbcl to VECTOR of course!
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2014-05-28T16:46:07Z beach again seems to have failed to understand something that is obvious to everyone else. :(
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2014-05-28T16:51:53Z owl-v-: oh nice
2014-05-28T16:52:25Z owl-v-: why d i get hashtag? like #(1 2) ?
2014-05-28T16:52:58Z jdz: owl-v-: why are you here? shouldn't you be off reading an intro text on Common Lisp?
2014-05-28T16:52:58Z Xach: That is the syntax for a vector
2014-05-28T16:53:32Z oleo: lol
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2014-05-28T16:54:22Z owl-v-: i'm porting clj code to cl code
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2014-05-28T16:57:28Z jdz: owl-v-: how's that possible if you don't know CL?
2014-05-28T16:58:11Z oleo: he means just snippets maybe....
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2014-05-28T16:58:20Z oleo: not whole projects....
2014-05-28T16:58:23Z oleo: i assume
2014-05-28T16:58:38Z oleo: but still that requires knowledge of cl yes
2014-05-28T16:59:05Z beach thinks owl-v- intends to learn Common Lisp by asking questions here. 
2014-05-28T16:59:09Z oleo: even using rosettacode won't do it....
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2014-05-28T17:02:07Z owl-v-: why? clojure is also in lisp family.
2014-05-28T17:02:42Z owl-v-: what's how i learned c++ and java by learning counter parts
2014-05-28T17:02:58Z Xach: I don't think that is a good approach for Common Lisp.
2014-05-28T17:03:20Z owl-v-: and python
2014-05-28T17:03:22Z oleo: you'll get confused...
2014-05-28T17:03:25Z beach: Nor for C++ and Java.  The only thing they have in common is superficial syntax.
2014-05-28T17:03:49Z owl-v-: beach: not syntex
2014-05-28T17:04:07Z owl-v-: it's the common of OO design
2014-05-28T17:04:28Z beach: Whatever.
2014-05-28T17:04:42Z stassats: you learning strategy rather appears to be "ask things on IRC"
2014-05-28T17:05:18Z pnpuff: owl-v-: there are different implementation realted strategies, more than details...
2014-05-28T17:05:19Z oleo: that's too much patchworking....
2014-05-28T17:05:28Z pnpuff: *related
2014-05-28T17:06:00Z stassats: and getting help from pnpuff and oleo, must be a great way to learn things
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2014-05-28T17:07:01Z jdz: owl-v-: as the quote goes: "one can program fortran in any programming language"
2014-05-28T17:07:38Z owl-v-: yes, there are many different implementations in c++ and java. but if u start thinking in higher level they are about the same.
2014-05-28T17:08:21Z owl-v-: afterall they are derived from C
2014-05-28T17:08:31Z Xach: If you think high enough, you never have to do anything.
2014-05-28T17:09:05Z owl-v-: if i'm too high then i should be in a hospital bed
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2014-05-28T17:10:45Z Xach: owl-v-: If you have questions about Common Lisp after reading some stuff and trying to solve problems on your own, feel free to ask here. Otherwise I do not think there is anything further to discuss.
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2014-05-28T17:13:09Z effy: seems like the perfect time to ask a newbie question, i installed sbcl, quicklisp and slime, am i missing anything else to start at it ?
2014-05-28T17:13:57Z eudoxia: effy: telling slime to use sbcl?
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2014-05-28T17:14:14Z Xach: effy: I really like to add paredit into that mix
2014-05-28T17:14:15Z effy: got that ! :) it was on the github default conf
2014-05-28T17:14:29Z effy: Xach: of yeah already got that from clojure
2014-05-28T17:14:34Z Xach: effy: It took me a few days to get used to it, but now I wouldn't go without. It helped to have the cheat sheet handy.
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2014-05-28T17:16:31Z impomatic was about to ask a newbie question, but changed his mind...
2014-05-28T17:17:12Z Xach: Newbie questions are welcome.
2014-05-28T17:17:40Z effy: anyone know if i can trick eldoc-mode to work for cl or if it's emacs lisp specific?
2014-05-28T17:17:42Z Xach: owl-v- is getting hostility for writing nonsense, not for ignorance.
2014-05-28T17:18:01Z Xach: effy: slime provides that
2014-05-28T17:18:02Z stassats: effy: slime uses it
2014-05-28T17:18:13Z jasom: impomatic: newbie questions are fine saying "I know clojure so I don't need to read any books on common lisp" not so much.
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2014-05-28T17:19:09Z effy: i'm starting PAIP, is it still relevent ? the exemples programs seems really fun i'm especially waiting for the part on making a prolog interpreter/compiler
2014-05-28T17:19:18Z Xach: effy: PAIP is a good book for CL.
2014-05-28T17:19:30Z Xach: it is pretty dense, and if you keep at it, you'll learn a lot.
2014-05-28T17:20:24Z impomatic: No really a newbie question. I just wondered if anyone had played with Struggle by Christian Queinnec (who also wrote Lisp in Small Pieces)
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2014-05-28T17:20:45Z impomatic: It's a programming game based on Lisp http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/PDF/strugman.pdf
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2014-05-28T17:23:24Z rszeno: impomatic, it look more like scheme then lisp
2014-05-28T17:23:50Z Xach hasn't seen that paper before
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2014-05-28T17:25:57Z noncom: impomatic: wow, interesting, haven't played, gonna look into it
2014-05-28T17:26:00Z noncom: and why do you ask?
2014-05-28T17:26:44Z owl-v-: looks like list is not a function...
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2014-05-28T17:28:29Z Xach: owl-v-: It is a function.
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2014-05-28T17:30:19Z impomatic: I'm just interested if anyone who's played has an opinion. Whether different strategies are viable. Whether there's something which can't be beaten and the game is broken.
2014-05-28T17:30:30Z ahungry: Xach or any other paredit users, do you also use evil-mode or native emacs keybinds for your movement?
2014-05-28T17:30:46Z ahungry: I find paredit does not work nicely with evil-mode style editing
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2014-05-28T17:30:56Z Xach: I use regular emacs.
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2014-05-28T17:31:35Z effy: regular emacs too
2014-05-28T17:31:42Z owl-v-: Xach: i tried ('(1 2 3 4) 0) and that's illegal function call
2014-05-28T17:32:11Z effy: list is a function as in the "symbol" "list"
2014-05-28T17:32:12Z Xach: owl-v-: Yes.
2014-05-28T17:32:15Z effy: (list 1 2 3)
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2014-05-28T17:33:21Z owl-v-: why is it error >> ((list 1 2 3) 0)
2014-05-28T17:33:30Z jasom: owl-v-: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_abab.htm
2014-05-28T17:33:32Z Xach: owl-v-: because that is not the syntax of Common Lisp.
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2014-05-28T17:34:29Z jasom: owl-v-: "If the car of the compound form is not a symbol, then that car must be a lambda expression, in which case the compound form is a lambda form."
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2014-05-28T17:34:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: When I macroexpand a piece of code I get a list peppered with list* instead of just the nested lists in my original code. Is there an easy way to fix this?
2014-05-28T17:35:02Z jasom: Petit_Dejeuner: macroexpand-1 ?
2014-05-28T17:35:11Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yes, http://paste.lisp.org/display/142723
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2014-05-28T17:37:13Z jasom: Petit_Dejeuner: what is defmacro/g!
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2014-05-28T17:37:40Z jasom: That's probably waht is adding the list* stuff
2014-05-28T17:37:53Z oleo: it's the banged version of defmacro....
2014-05-28T17:37:54Z Xach: That's from Let Over Lambda.
2014-05-28T17:38:00Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yeah
2014-05-28T17:38:08Z oleo: you know the shebang of bash ?
2014-05-28T17:38:15Z oleo: #!
2014-05-28T17:38:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yeah, for telling bash what to run a file with?
2014-05-28T17:38:55Z oleo: the g stands for gensyms
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2014-05-28T17:39:30Z oleo: it creates gensymed versions of the passed on variables...inside the forms....
2014-05-28T17:39:46Z noncom: impomatic: gonna try it out soon
2014-05-28T17:39:50Z noncom: i ope
2014-05-28T17:39:55Z noncom: hope
2014-05-28T17:39:56Z oleo: the o! one is the one which guarantees once-only behaviour....
2014-05-28T17:40:05Z jasom: Petit_Dejeuner: I don't get the same output you get
2014-05-28T17:40:14Z oleo: just read on
2014-05-28T17:40:26Z jasom: (DEFMACRO/G! JUNK-INNER NIL
2014-05-28T17:40:27Z jasom:              `(LET ((,G!ABC))
2014-05-28T17:40:34Z impomatic: noncom: I'd be interested to hear how you get on :-)
2014-05-28T17:40:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: jasom, weird, what implementation are you using?
2014-05-28T17:40:44Z jasom: (DEFMACRO/G! JUNK-INNER NIL `(LET ((,G!ABC)) ,G!ABC))  <-- that rather
2014-05-28T17:40:50Z jasom: Petit_Dejeuner: sbcl
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2014-05-28T17:41:45Z jasom: ccl does the same
2014-05-28T17:41:47Z noncom: impomatic: first i ave to read it anyway :) i'll try it out
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2014-05-28T17:43:03Z jasom: oh, ccl shows the list* stuff
2014-05-28T17:43:06Z owl-v-: when i do (car '(1 2 3)) does (car) returns a reference of (1) or copy of value (1)?
2014-05-28T17:43:08Z jasom: That's part of quasiquotation
2014-05-28T17:43:10Z Petit_Dejeuner: jasom, Yeah, I'm using ccl.
2014-05-28T17:43:38Z jasom: Petit_Dejeuner: it is not defined what quasiquoted forms are read in as, merely what they must be equivalent to
2014-05-28T17:45:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: It still bites that ccl makes macroexpand-1 makes quasiquoting hard to read. Thanks. I guess I'll use SBCL for now.
2014-05-28T17:45:14Z Petit_Dejeuner: make*
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2014-05-28T17:49:29Z jasom: Petit_Dejeuner: there are various quasi-quoting libraries out there; I don't know if any of them are coupled with nice pretty printers
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2014-05-28T17:50:05Z oleo: sbcl has some pre defined stuff for the pretty-printer
2014-05-28T17:50:32Z oleo: some of which are flat table part some cons cell based tables in a hashtable
2014-05-28T17:51:28Z rszeno: pprint ?
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2014-05-28T17:57:47Z jasom: rszeno: that's one way to access the pretty printer
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2014-05-28T18:15:12Z oGMo: paredit-convolute-sexp is magic
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2014-05-28T18:16:06Z heddwch: I need to install and learn that some day
2014-05-28T18:16:43Z oGMo: you're not using paredit?!
2014-05-28T18:17:06Z heddwch: Nope, just lisp-mode + slime-mode
2014-05-28T18:17:29Z oGMo: might as well use ed + slimed
2014-05-28T18:17:43Z oGMo: (no that doesn't exist afaik)
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2014-05-28T18:18:11Z heddwch: haha
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2014-05-28T18:18:56Z jasom: So a barely working save of my iterator DSL (I think someone here asked about seeing code) https://github.com/jasom/itertools
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2014-05-28T18:23:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: "slimed" ha
2014-05-28T18:23:44Z stassats: clhs ed
2014-05-28T18:23:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ed.htm
2014-05-28T18:23:53Z stassats: you can use ED to call slime
2014-05-28T18:24:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: jasom, Isn't there already 'iterate'? http://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/
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2014-05-28T18:27:37Z jasom: Petit_Dejeuner: look at A.3.4 of iterate; something like that would be simple to implement with my system, but is specifically dismissed as a goal of iterate
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2014-05-28T18:38:50Z jasom: Petit_Dejeuner: but yes, the problem space has a large overlap.  This was more of a fun diversion for me
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2014-05-28T18:40:44Z Denommus: yay, SBCL 1.2 out
2014-05-28T18:40:44Z minion: Denommus, memo from pjb: lisp machines were multi-user systems!  Go learn some history!
2014-05-28T18:41:01Z Denommus: pjb: uh, okay, sorry, I guess
2014-05-28T18:41:05Z heddwch: haha
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2014-05-28T18:41:47Z foom: really? All the lisp machines I ever saw were single user.
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2014-05-28T18:42:32Z heddwch: That was my understanding, too, but didn't feel like questioning pjb
2014-05-28T18:43:21Z heddwch: Not that single user is inherently a bad thing. If it's got good threading, multitasking, etc, most systems are used as single user systems even if they're capable of otherwise
2014-05-28T18:43:38Z nyef: ... Didn't some of them support SUPDUP or a similar protocol, and thus allowed remote logins?
2014-05-28T18:44:07Z heddwch: That doesn't necessarily mean multiuser. If you wanted to, you could set up telnet on an amiga or windows 95
2014-05-28T18:44:08Z p_l: well, Genera provided X11
2014-05-28T18:44:35Z p_l: and I think SUPDUP and TELNET servers were available or possible
2014-05-28T18:46:33Z foom: ISTR the telnet server didn't ask for a login, also?
2014-05-28T18:46:38Z foom: not 100% sure of that.
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2014-05-28T18:47:27Z p_l: foom: probably depends on how you start it
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2014-05-28T18:47:47Z foom: I recall hearing that the lisp machine that ran the clinton whitehouse email autoresponder was open to anyone on the MIT AI lab network who knew it was there, because lisp machines didn't much believe in security.
2014-05-28T18:48:00Z p_l: Genera did support users, I think it was just that only one user could be active, or at most there was no form of separation at all
2014-05-28T18:48:34Z Denommus: foom: RMS tells something of the sorts in Revolution OS
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2014-05-28T18:48:53Z heddwch: Multiuserness, at least ten years ago, was one of those things just like OO. People can argue about what combination of aspects makes a system multiuser.
2014-05-28T18:49:15Z Denommus: foom: they tried to implement user security and he influenced everyone to leave the password blank because the security didn't do shit
2014-05-28T18:49:32Z foom: He didn't believe in security.
2014-05-28T18:49:44Z foom: It doesn't matter if it worked or not, he was against it on principle.
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2014-05-28T18:49:47Z owl-v-: how is racket different from sbcl?
2014-05-28T18:50:01Z heddwch: ...?
2014-05-28T18:50:01Z owl-v-: aren't they both cl?
2014-05-28T18:50:02Z Xach: owl-v-: racket is for the racket language, sbcl is for the common lisp language.
2014-05-28T18:50:05Z Xach: owl-v-: no.
2014-05-28T18:50:09Z heddwch: racket is a scheme dialect
2014-05-28T18:50:20Z foom: That was a common belief amongst hackers of that time -- you should trust your fellow hackers, not try to hide things from them.
2014-05-28T18:50:29Z owl-v-: ok
2014-05-28T18:50:50Z p_l: foom: more like "you knew where they were and you could whack them"
2014-05-28T18:51:03Z Xach: mafia-style
2014-05-28T18:51:03Z heddwch: Well, there is the fact that lisp machines were specifically developed to free hackers from multiuser systems.
2014-05-28T18:51:08Z p_l: at least some writings suggested that
2014-05-28T18:51:11Z Denommus: owl-v-: they are different languages. They just share similar roots, though Racket is a Lisp-1 and Common Lisp a Lisp-N
2014-05-28T18:51:19Z jasom: all of the LMs I knew were single-user workstations
2014-05-28T18:51:39Z foom: The contemporary systems were all multiuser dumb-terminal systems.
2014-05-28T18:51:54Z p_l: heddwch: more that they were designed as powerful personal workstations - they still kept concept of multiuser, but worked similarly to Plan9 terminals (which reboot to change users)
2014-05-28T18:52:14Z jasom: though apparently the racal-norks kps-10 was multiuser
2014-05-28T18:52:34Z p_l: jasom: there were multiuser Genera installs, technically speaking
2014-05-28T18:52:34Z foom: LMs, like modern computers, were designed for a single user. (And like modern systems, they may have some some sort of multiuserness, but certainly nobody used them that way.)
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2014-05-28T18:53:04Z p_l: jasom: but they were multiuser similarly to how VM/CP was
2014-05-28T18:53:23Z jasom: My first computer was multi-user in one sense; I had a floppy I booted from, and my dad had a different one
2014-05-28T18:53:33Z p_l: (OpenGenera manual describes such a multiuser setup)
2014-05-28T18:53:44Z heddwch: p_l: Ah, interesting. Plan 9 was in mind when I was saying single user wasn't necessarily bad. I would consider the terminals single-user, although the system is multiuser
2014-05-28T18:53:55Z jasom: p_l: So multiuser, but not timesharing?
2014-05-28T18:54:22Z p_l: jasom: multiprogrammed, single user, time shared. Kinda
2014-05-28T18:54:27Z p_l: terminology gets iffy
2014-05-28T18:54:32Z Denommus: I don't think single user is necessarily bad
2014-05-28T18:54:42Z Denommus: I can imagine myself using a single user system for development
2014-05-28T18:54:57Z foom: Single user systems are what you're all using today...
2014-05-28T18:55:02Z Denommus: minion: help
2014-05-28T18:55:02Z minion: There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
2014-05-28T18:55:05Z p_l: well, these days I wouldn't trust system without privilege separation
2014-05-28T18:55:07Z jasom: my linux workstation is single user, I just sometimes have to type "sudo" to get it to do some things
2014-05-28T18:55:21Z p_l: jasom: you have single-seat, but multi-user system ;)
2014-05-28T18:55:44Z p_l: or to be specific, you're sitting at the Console of a multiuser machine with no terminals connected ;)
2014-05-28T18:55:47Z heddwch: foom: I beg to differ. I have services running as other users ;)
2014-05-28T18:55:56Z owl-v-: minion: mongodb
2014-05-28T18:55:56Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``mongodb''.
2014-05-28T18:55:57Z foom: heddwch: yea, but to what end?
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2014-05-28T18:56:31Z Denommus: minion: memo for pjb: people discussed a lot here if Lisp Machines were single-user or multi-user, and the general consensus seem to say that those time's definition of multi-user are different from today's
2014-05-28T18:56:31Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pjb when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-05-28T18:57:13Z heddwch: foom: Privelege separation =p But yea, I am using it as a single-user system.
2014-05-28T18:57:19Z p_l: Genera had no ability to provide separation at granularity smaller than "machine", so at best you could have multiple Genera runtimes hosted (either through multiple VME cards, or through multiple VLMs)
2014-05-28T18:57:49Z heddwch: Good response, Denommus
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2014-05-28T18:59:11Z foom: Linux is theoretically a multiuser system. But it has such a terrible local-user security record, you're basically crazy if you use it like that and expect isolation between accounts.
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2014-05-28T19:00:00Z Denommus: foom: I think that's more of a problem of the user-space than the kernel-space
2014-05-28T19:00:01Z heddwch: Depends what you're wanting to protect against, but yea, there's a reason LXC happened
2014-05-28T19:00:07Z p_l: foom: if you sit at console, you have already violated everything
2014-05-28T19:00:13Z Denommus: foom: you can have a pretty advanced user isolation with Nix and Guix :-)
2014-05-28T19:00:14Z heddwch: And it's better than simple single-user multitasking as far as isolating programs from each other.
2014-05-28T19:00:21Z gendl: Hi, is this conformant:  (let ((*print-base* 16)) (format nil “~a” 10)) —> “a”
2014-05-28T19:00:36Z heddwch pokes gendl for being offtopic
2014-05-28T19:00:43Z p_l: lol
2014-05-28T19:00:47Z Denommus: lol
2014-05-28T19:00:51Z gendl: Inheddwch: sorry to but into the topic.
2014-05-28T19:00:53Z jasom: gendl: ~a prints as if princ
2014-05-28T19:00:55Z gendl: butt*
2014-05-28T19:00:57Z heddwch: :)
2014-05-28T19:01:04Z heddwch: You're fine, gendl, a joke
2014-05-28T19:01:17Z gendl: i’m concerned with the case of the “a” — “a” vs. “A”
2014-05-28T19:01:20Z gendl: for hex printing
2014-05-28T19:01:30Z gendl: CCL, LW, SBCL all print “A”
2014-05-28T19:01:38Z gendl: Allegro CL (both modern-mode and ANSI mode) print “a"
2014-05-28T19:01:57Z gendl: I haven’t checked yet, but I have reason to believe this is a difference from ACL 8.2 to ACL 9.0
2014-05-28T19:02:02Z gendl: i think ACL 8.2 used to print uppercase
2014-05-28T19:02:21Z heddwch: I don't think that's specified. That's output meant for a user to read ("~a"), so either should be fine
2014-05-28T19:02:46Z jasom: It doesn't appear to be specified
2014-05-28T19:03:10Z gendl: ok fair enough. I’m using it to generate session IDs for a web application, so case does matter for my application. Looks like I have to normalize the case myself
2014-05-28T19:03:52Z jasom: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/13_adf.htm <-- that makes me think that either is okay
2014-05-28T19:03:52Z Denommus: heddwch: I don't agree. If he uses (format nil "~a" 10) instead, he'll have a string. If he performs checks on that string, it will be non-conformant in ACL 9.0
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2014-05-28T19:04:11Z Denommus: jasom: let's see
2014-05-28T19:04:13Z heddwch: Yea, string-upcase should do you fine, or string-downcase if you prefer
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2014-05-28T19:04:33Z Denommus: > Case is not significant in digits; for example, in radix 16, both F and f are digits with weight 15.
2014-05-28T19:04:36Z heddwch: Denommus: iirc, ~a gives no guarantees about even being readable. It's aesthetic output
2014-05-28T19:04:38Z Denommus: hm, it seems to be the case
2014-05-28T19:05:37Z jasom: clhs 22.1.3.1.1
2014-05-28T19:05:37Z specbot: Printing Integers: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_acaa.htm
2014-05-28T19:05:51Z gendl: (let ((*print-base* 16)) (format nil "~s" 10))  —> “a”
2014-05-28T19:05:56Z gendl: so ~s does the same thing
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2014-05-28T19:06:23Z heddwch: In that case, there is still the "case is not significant in digits" bit
2014-05-28T19:06:24Z Denommus: heddwch: hm, or you could just use #'string-equal
2014-05-28T19:06:31Z heddwch: Ah, true, Denommus
2014-05-28T19:07:01Z jasom: Even with a case-sensitive reader, a lower-case a is a digit when the radix is greater than 10
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2014-05-28T19:07:13Z heddwch: gendl: (string-upcase (let ((*print-base* 16)) (format nil "~s" 10)) → "A" =p
2014-05-28T19:07:40Z gendl: yep they are all valid digits whether uppercase or lowercase.
2014-05-28T19:08:48Z gendl: my issue is that I make a string from these things including a timestamp, random number, and counter, to generate a session id, then convert it to a keyword symbol and use as a hash key. I suppose I could use #’equalp as the hash function and avoid case issues, but it’s using default #’eql now and I prefer to keep it that way.
2014-05-28T19:09:44Z heddwch: That'd be why I recommended string-upcase, keep your read semantics the same, but make the output portable
2014-05-28T19:10:09Z rszeno: (format t "~x" 10) => "A"
2014-05-28T19:10:35Z gendl: rszeno: that’s quite simpler, isn’t it.
2014-05-28T19:10:42Z rszeno: ~a is like printc
2014-05-28T19:10:55Z jasom: ~x can output either case as well
2014-05-28T19:11:02Z rszeno: seems simple
2014-05-28T19:11:06Z gendl: yeah, in Allegro CL it outputs lowercase.
2014-05-28T19:11:12Z heddwch: That's what I was wondering
2014-05-28T19:11:23Z jasom: In fact ~x is essentially idenitcal to binding *print-base* to 16 and doing a ~a
2014-05-28T19:11:26Z Denommus: gendl: yeah, it's probably better to stick with #'eql, it has better performance. So upcase it!
2014-05-28T19:11:27Z gendl: I think previously Allegro CL modern-mode outputted lowercase, and ANSI mode outputted uppercase — that’s what’s tripping me up here.
2014-05-28T19:11:54Z jasom: ~X binds *print-escape* to false, *print-radix* to false, *print-base* to 16, and *print-readably* to false.
2014-05-28T19:12:36Z gendl: everywhere else in my framework we are used to dealing with case-preserving behavior for modern-mode, and case-insensitive for ANSI mode. But yes, as long as the initial key is generated in a normalized case-mode, everything downstream will be fine. I think unconditionally upcasing is indeed the right thing.
2014-05-28T19:13:03Z rszeno: i guess it depend of *print-case* with pprint
2014-05-28T19:13:06Z jasom: I belive that roman numerals must be upper cased, so you could use ~@R instead
2014-05-28T19:13:24Z jasom ducks
2014-05-28T19:13:29Z heddwch: =p
2014-05-28T19:13:56Z heddwch: I wonder if that's the case.. Outside lisp, lowercase roman numerals are also valid for different uses
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2014-05-28T19:16:54Z jasom: AFAICT the only specification for roman numerals is that old style is IIII and new-style is IV
2014-05-28T19:17:17Z heddwch: Interesting. I'd test, but don't have access to allegro
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2014-05-28T19:19:16Z jasom: Indeed, I just did a full-text search of the hyperspec and found only those to referances.  The other occurance of "roman" is in the glossary entry for "em"
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2014-05-28T19:25:15Z pjb: Denommus: I don't see how it's different: nowadays, you have multi-tasking systems such as Linux used on single-user ubuntu or Android machines.  Yesterday, you had multi-tasking systems such as LispMachines used on single-user LispMachine.  Actually, since LispMachine had a login and a ftp server, they were much more multi-user than Android phones.
2014-05-28T19:25:15Z minion: pjb, memo from Denommus: people discussed a lot here if Lisp Machines were single-user or multi-user, and the general consensus seem to say that those time's definition of multi-user are different from today's
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2014-05-28T19:25:50Z Denommus: pjb: Android phones have a login
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2014-05-28T19:26:08Z pjb: Yes a single user login: you type your PIN.
2014-05-28T19:26:21Z jasom: pjb: I run an ssh server on my android occasionally
2014-05-28T19:26:22Z gendl: (format nil "~@R" 4)
2014-05-28T19:26:23Z gendl: 	
2014-05-28T19:26:24Z gendl: "IV"
2014-05-28T19:26:33Z gendl: (format nil "~@R" 10)
2014-05-28T19:26:34Z gendl: 	
2014-05-28T19:26:35Z gendl: "X"
2014-05-28T19:26:38Z heddwch: Denommus: That's a lock, not a login
2014-05-28T19:26:44Z gendl: (Allegro)
2014-05-28T19:26:59Z heddwch: Thanks, gendl!
2014-05-28T19:27:02Z Denommus: heddwch: it is multiuser and you need authentication to use the features. What's the difference?
2014-05-28T19:27:08Z pjb: You can't tell: hey phone, I'm Sarah, my password is XXXXX, and get the Sarah's configuration and home screen, and then log out and tell: hey phone, I'm John, my password is XYXYXY, and get the John's configuration and home screen.
2014-05-28T19:27:12Z pjb: You just can't on Android.
2014-05-28T19:27:20Z p_l: heddwch: actually, tablets (and phones can be modded for it) with recent enough android are multiuser
2014-05-28T19:27:21Z jasom: of course sbcl only goes up to 4999 in roman numerals (it's not y5k compliant!)
2014-05-28T19:27:29Z heddwch: Denommus: It's not multiuser. It repurposed users as limited sandboxes, and you use authentication to unlock *all* users.
2014-05-28T19:27:32Z Denommus: pjb: you haven't using Android for much time, have you? You do can do that
2014-05-28T19:27:42Z pjb: For one year, from 2.3 to 4.3
2014-05-28T19:27:56Z heddwch: p_l: True, but as above and I think it functions more like Win9x's user profiles than real users
2014-05-28T19:28:02Z pjb: Of course, each application gets assigned its own unix account. That's not the point!
2014-05-28T19:28:12Z p_l: heddwch: no, those are full users, including ability to lock out certain functionality
2014-05-28T19:28:33Z p_l: as well as disjoint sets of applications and individually encrypted storage, iirc
2014-05-28T19:28:34Z heddwch: p_l: Er, you could do that on win9x profiles, too, with group policies
2014-05-28T19:28:39Z heddwch: Ah, okay, I see
2014-05-28T19:28:42Z jasom: I think we all agree on what lisp machines do, and what android does, we just disagree on the definition of "multi user" so I don't think this argument is productive anymore
2014-05-28T19:28:52Z heddwch: Interesting. must've been fun reimplementing what they already repurposed =p
2014-05-28T19:29:09Z p_l: heddwch: I think group policies weren't available in 9x... at least not to anything that actually provided any lockout :P
2014-05-28T19:29:22Z pjb: jasom: By any definition of multi-user.
2014-05-28T19:29:25Z pjb: I dare you!
2014-05-28T19:29:32Z Denommus: jasom: that was exactly my point
2014-05-28T19:29:43Z pjb: Well, unless you define multi-user as what android is and not lisp machine is.
2014-05-28T19:30:06Z heddwch: p_l: Sadly, they were. You could lock users out of the control panel, etc. Rather a lot of options. Never mind that you could just hit cancel on the login screen and avoid all that XD
2014-05-28T19:30:33Z Denommus: pjb: I'm not claiming that Android has multiple users, though. I'm just saying that it does have the features you were asking
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2014-05-28T19:34:35Z p_l: heddwch: well, that. On android, all those are enforced, with SElinux on 4.4
2014-05-28T19:35:02Z heddwch: nice
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2014-05-28T19:45:56Z ThomasH: Greetings lispers!
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2014-05-28T19:46:15Z ThomasH: (herep LiamH)
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2014-05-28T19:46:38Z ThomasH: nil
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2014-05-28T19:55:21Z Denommus: ThomasH: hello
2014-05-28T19:55:42Z ThomasH: Hey Denommus
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2014-05-28T20:07:56Z ThomasH: Quiet, I haven't been on IRC since last November.
2014-05-28T20:08:35Z Xach: Welcome back! Enjoy your stay.
2014-05-28T20:09:06Z ThomasH: I wondered if any of the cool kids were still here.
2014-05-28T20:09:16Z dlowe: were the cool kids ever here?
2014-05-28T20:09:24Z Xach: Sadly not.
2014-05-28T20:09:34Z ThomasH: :-(
2014-05-28T20:09:36Z Xach: Just the weirdos and losers remain.
2014-05-28T20:09:42Z stassats: only kool kids
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2014-05-28T20:10:24Z felideon: heh
2014-05-28T20:10:32Z felideon: and the idlers
2014-05-28T20:11:05Z heddwch: <Xach> Just the weirdos and losers remain. ← hence why the #lisp name list is so large
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2014-05-28T20:15:52Z Xach: Those are the bots & idlers
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2014-05-28T20:17:10Z heddwch: heh
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2014-05-28T20:20:18Z Fizzixnerd: If I do (defclass A () ()) (defclass B () ()) (defclass C () ()) (defclass Child (A B C) ()) and then define primary methods for A B and C, while using call-next-method, SBCL seems to barf on the last call-next-method
2014-05-28T20:20:48Z pjb: You can test (when (next-method-p) (call-next-method))
2014-05-28T20:20:54Z pjb: You should do that normally.
2014-05-28T20:20:56Z Fizzixnerd: perfect, thank you
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2014-05-28T20:21:04Z pjb: You can avoid the test when you have proven that you have a next-method.
2014-05-28T20:21:04Z Denommus: test
2014-05-28T20:21:17Z Fizzixnerd: I will keep that in mind
2014-05-28T20:21:21Z Fizzixnerd: thank you again
2014-05-28T20:22:45Z Fizzixnerd: is it advisable to create a macro for that little blurb?
2014-05-28T20:22:54Z pjb: Note that since the order of the superclasses can change (in a different subclass) you might better test always.
2014-05-28T20:23:06Z Fizzixnerd: yeah, that's what I'm thinking too
2014-05-28T20:23:14Z pjb: (safe-call-next-method) ; why not.
2014-05-28T20:23:24Z Fizzixnerd: alrighty
2014-05-28T20:23:38Z Fizzixnerd: does alexandria provide such a thing, or am I better off just writting it myself?
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2014-05-28T20:24:28Z pjb: I'm not sure about alexandria policy.  You can always propose it.
2014-05-28T20:24:52Z Fizzixnerd: I might do just that.  Thanks again
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2014-05-28T20:27:14Z stassats: i don't think it's suitable for alexandria
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2014-05-28T20:27:47Z Fizzixnerd: hmmm... but once-only is?
2014-05-28T20:28:01Z Fizzixnerd: I can't imagine when you'd ever want to not use a safe-call-next-method
2014-05-28T20:28:05Z Fizzixnerd: unless you were super certain
2014-05-28T20:28:13Z stassats: i never use next-method-p
2014-05-28T20:28:21Z Fizzixnerd: really?
2014-05-28T20:28:24Z stassats: and i've rarely seen code using it, unless it's some meta code
2014-05-28T20:28:28Z Bicyclidine: for most applications the class tree is static
2014-05-28T20:28:32Z Fizzixnerd: that suprises me
2014-05-28T20:28:41Z stassats: and once-only at least implements something non-trivial
2014-05-28T20:28:42Z Bicyclidine: and fairly obvious, like in your example
2014-05-28T20:28:51Z stassats: even i were to use next-method-p, i would prefer to spell it out, since it's clearer that way
2014-05-28T20:29:19Z Fizzixnerd: I suppose you're right
2014-05-28T20:29:37Z Fizzixnerd: I have far less experience with CL code.  I'm just surprised it's not everywhere
2014-05-28T20:29:49Z Bicyclidine: (Child A B C) is child's cpl, easy
2014-05-28T20:30:15Z stassats: moreover, around and before/after remove many cases where call-next-method is used
2014-05-28T20:30:31Z Fizzixnerd: that's true, but what if you subclass Child later?
2014-05-28T20:30:38Z ThomasH: Bicyclidine: cpl?
2014-05-28T20:30:43Z Bicyclidine: class precedence list
2014-05-28T20:30:49Z Bicyclidine: Fizzixnerd: irrelevant to methods on Child, of course
2014-05-28T20:30:51Z ThomasH: Thanks
2014-05-28T20:30:58Z stassats: grepping through libraries: rgrep next-method-p | wc -l 68
2014-05-28T20:31:03Z stassats: rgrep call-next-method | wc -l 1524
2014-05-28T20:31:21Z Fizzixnerd: wow, that's nuts
2014-05-28T20:31:25Z Fizzixnerd: I had no idea
2014-05-28T20:31:28Z Bicyclidine: also, generally, if the next method doesn't exist, it makes more sense to signal an error than to just return nil
2014-05-28T20:31:35Z Bicyclidine: which is exactly what call-next-method does
2014-05-28T20:31:39Z pjb: In plug-in classes, next-method-p should be mandatory.
2014-05-28T20:31:52Z Fizzixnerd: so like api classes maybe?
2014-05-28T20:31:59Z pjb: plug-in classes.
2014-05-28T20:32:06Z pjb: I mean, mix-ins.
2014-05-28T20:32:08Z Bicyclidine: you mean mixin- right
2014-05-28T20:32:13Z Fizzixnerd: Oh, I see
2014-05-28T20:32:21Z pjb: Classes that you may optionally inherit, in any order.
2014-05-28T20:32:22Z Bicyclidine: yeah, i can see it making sense there.
2014-05-28T20:32:25Z Fizzixnerd: alrighty, well B and C happen to be mixins in my case
2014-05-28T20:32:49Z stassats: i'd even advise using next-method-p, unless you really want, since it will silently hid problems in your classes
2014-05-28T20:32:54Z Bicyclidine: methods on child don't need to, though
2014-05-28T20:33:04Z stassats: advise against
2014-05-28T20:33:25Z Fizzixnerd: Bicyclidine, even if Child is only one of the supers?
2014-05-28T20:33:56Z Bicyclidine: if it's not a mixin the cpl is easy for it and its non-mixin subclasses
2014-05-28T20:34:20Z Fizzixnerd: What if you did say (defclass (Child D) ())?
2014-05-28T20:34:46Z Fizzixnerd: ignoring the fact this would never come up, would call-next-method barf?
2014-05-28T20:35:02Z Bicyclidine: it doesn't 'barf', it calls no-next-method, which generally signals an error
2014-05-28T20:35:16Z Bicyclidine: which is what you want for most generic functions' semantics
2014-05-28T20:35:23Z Fizzixnerd: (no-next-method) is another CL function?
2014-05-28T20:35:27Z Bicyclidine: yes.
2014-05-28T20:35:29Z Fizzixnerd: noted.
2014-05-28T20:35:32Z stassats: it's a generic function
2014-05-28T20:35:44Z Bicyclidine: talking about this independent of what the generic function in question is actually doing is kind of silly, i apologize for trying
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2014-05-28T20:36:03Z Bicyclidine: clhs no-next-method
2014-05-28T20:36:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_no_nex.htm
2014-05-28T20:36:30Z Fizzixnerd: mmm
2014-05-28T20:36:41Z Fizzixnerd: but in this case, if I didn't have call next method in my C method
2014-05-28T20:36:49Z Fizzixnerd: then the method in D would just not be called
2014-05-28T20:36:56Z Fizzixnerd: correct?
2014-05-28T20:37:10Z stassats: depends on the method combination!
2014-05-28T20:37:19Z Fizzixnerd: hurrah!
2014-05-28T20:37:20Z Bicyclidine: nobody uses those, so yes.
2014-05-28T20:37:39Z Fizzixnerd: alright, thank you
2014-05-28T20:37:58Z Bicyclidine: in standard method combination only one main method is called by the gf, the rest is all you i guess
2014-05-28T20:38:01Z stassats: you don't need neither call-next-method, nor no-next-method with certain method combinations
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2014-05-28T20:38:29Z Fizzixnerd: generic functions are cool.
2014-05-28T20:38:43Z Fizzixnerd: alright, back to work.
2014-05-28T20:38:49Z stassats: the primary method may be not called if an around method doesn't call call-next-method
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2014-05-28T20:39:15Z Bicyclidine: oh yeah.
2014-05-28T20:39:22Z stassats: or if there's a transfer of control in a before method
2014-05-28T20:41:20Z stassats: time to fix some old bugs in sbcl, which could have their own kids in school by now
2014-05-28T20:41:37Z Fizzixnerd: wow
2014-05-28T20:41:41Z Fizzixnerd: good luck!
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2014-05-28T20:42:51Z heddwch: You would orphan their children? You monster
2014-05-28T20:45:09Z nyef: Bugs dating from before the SBCL fork, still.
2014-05-28T20:45:40Z ggole quit
2014-05-28T20:45:49Z stassats: bugs before the cmucl's initial revision
2014-05-28T20:46:02Z Bicyclidine: maybe you can get the cmucl people to merge into upstream!
2014-05-28T20:46:06Z nyef: (Assuming that the fork occurred fifteen years ago, and that children need to be at least four years old to attend school.)
2014-05-28T20:46:09Z Bicyclidine: oh, even better, the spice people, if they're even alive
2014-05-28T20:46:21Z stassats: heddwch: you have to thank _death for that
2014-05-28T20:46:37Z Bicyclidine: Oh, the with-simple-restart one.
2014-05-28T20:46:42Z stassats: nyef: it's 24+ years
2014-05-28T20:46:53Z nyef: Wow!
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2014-05-28T20:46:56Z heddwch: heh :)
2014-05-28T20:47:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: "<jasom> Petit_Dejeuner: but yes, the problem space has a large overlap.  This was more of a fun diversion for me" Yeah, I kind of figured. Still, it's cool that yours works with streams.
2014-05-28T20:47:24Z nyef: Be careful, if it's that old it's obviously a survivor, if you don't do the job properly it'll just get sneakier and more cunning!
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2014-05-28T20:49:15Z Fizzixnerd: buildyourownlisp.com is down :(
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2014-05-28T20:49:28Z heddwch: Fizzixnerd: Use somebody else's lisp for now
2014-05-28T20:49:36Z Fizzixnerd: oh hey it's back now
2014-05-28T20:49:39Z Fizzixnerd: I'm dumb
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2014-05-28T21:00:48Z jasom: wait, is mpc a monadic parser combinator library for C?
2014-05-28T21:01:05Z jasom is just looking at buildyourownlisp.com
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2014-05-28T21:23:55Z drewc: jasom: you got me interested! I like monadic parser combinators ... do not like C per se, but the two mixed could be loads of fun.
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2014-05-28T21:26:19Z Denommus: drewc: ... uh, wat
2014-05-28T21:27:17Z Denommus: I wonder why people write languages in C. I mean, it makes all sense to write a runtime. But a language as a whole? Why?
2014-05-28T21:27:34Z jasom: Denommus: its the lingua franca of unix
2014-05-28T21:28:10Z Denommus: jasom: again, makes sense for runtimes :)
2014-05-28T21:28:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: Denommus, Isn't that what they usually do?
2014-05-28T21:28:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: Or do you mean the compiler shouldn't be in C?
2014-05-28T21:28:44Z Denommus: Petit_Dejeuner: look at CPython or MRI
2014-05-28T21:29:22Z Petit_Dejeuner: Aren't those both on C runtimes?
2014-05-28T21:29:29Z drewc: Denommus: I have not programmed in C for work since 2007 ... is was fun then and could be fun now!
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2014-05-28T21:29:34Z Denommus: the whole implementation are in C, aren't they?
2014-05-28T21:29:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: You mean write a runtime in one language and a compiler in another?
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2014-05-28T21:30:30Z pjb: Writing an application (or a compiler or a run-time) in C is as silly as writing them in assembler.
2014-05-28T21:30:31Z Denommus: drewc: I liked C until... last year, I guess. Until I realized there could be cost-free abstractions for solving the problem of memory management. Then I started hating the fact that a safer language haven't took its place :(
2014-05-28T21:30:53Z Denommus: isn't SBCL's runtime in C?
2014-05-28T21:31:03Z Denommus: and the rest of the compiler in Common Lisp?
2014-05-28T21:31:15Z pjb: I mean, you may write them in (a subset of) Common Lisp, and write a Cl compiler that translates (that subset of) Common Lisp into C so you may easily target different systems.
2014-05-28T21:31:18Z p_l: Denommus: not even all of the runtime, I think
2014-05-28T21:31:25Z pjb: But writing by hand the C code is silly and dumb.
2014-05-28T21:31:25Z drewc: well, that is the issue right there. Safe != Cost Free
2014-05-28T21:31:56Z Denommus: drewc: you can have both
2014-05-28T21:31:59Z jasom: drewc: there are nearly cost-free safer c dialects, but we are getting way OT now
2014-05-28T21:32:13Z stassats: drewc: safest code is the one that hasn't been written => Free
2014-05-28T21:32:15Z pjb: And when you have a native compiler like sbcl, you don't need to generate any C code anyways!
2014-05-28T21:32:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: Write the runtime in chicken scheme, compile to C, and then use another language for the compiler.
2014-05-28T21:32:29Z Petit_Dejeuner: You can pretend.
2014-05-28T21:32:39Z Denommus: pjb: so why don't they convert the C part of the runtime for CL?
2014-05-28T21:33:50Z jasom: Denommus: GC is the issue I think.
2014-05-28T21:34:27Z jasom: Denommus: I seem to recall a scheme (T I think?) in which the GC was written in lisp, but it was hand-crafted by people who understood the ins and outs of the compiler to not do any consing
2014-05-28T21:34:29Z p_l: more like too much work for too little gain
2014-05-28T21:34:49Z stassats: you will gain bugs and slow downs
2014-05-28T21:34:49Z Denommus: I agree
2014-05-28T21:34:52Z p_l: jasom: Genera had GC written in Lisp as well
2014-05-28T21:35:05Z Petit_Dejeuner: The value of everything cost of nothing problem?
2014-05-28T21:35:08Z p_l: and not sure about chicken scheme but it might count
2014-05-28T21:35:35Z Denommus: I don't see a point in trying to say that "CL could be used for writing a GC just like C!" if it's more difficult and for no gain that makes sense
2014-05-28T21:36:30Z pjb: jasom:  this is not the technique I preconise.  The key word in what I said is (a subset of) and (that subset of).  It's in parentheses because it's the most important part of the sentence, as it's natural in lisp!
2014-05-28T21:36:34Z Denommus: but my question was regarding to the rest of the compiler. Why don't more languages follow CL's example and implement most of it in itself, doing in C just the parts that make sense to implement in C?
2014-05-28T21:36:51Z pjb: Denommus: all the language are implemented in themselves!
2014-05-28T21:36:53Z pjb: All the time.
2014-05-28T21:37:18Z Denommus: pjb: that doesn't seem to be the case in, say, Python and Ruby
2014-05-28T21:37:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: Denommus, You mean by making as many features as possible part of the stdlib?
2014-05-28T21:37:23Z pjb: One may argue that it's silly and they'd better use CL to implement all those languages (gcc itself contains half a bad implementation of lisp).
2014-05-28T21:37:42Z jasom: pjb: You need to know which subset of the language won't compile into something that conses, which will be compiler specific
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2014-05-28T21:37:51Z Denommus: Petit_Dejeuner: I mean making the lexer, the parser and all that in a higher level language (doesn't even need to be the language itself, just something that isn't C)
2014-05-28T21:37:55Z jasom: (let ((a 3)) a) could cons on some compilers in some cases
2014-05-28T21:38:09Z pjb: Denommus: pypy and rubinius: they spend a lot of resources on that.
2014-05-28T21:38:10Z stassats: jasom: ask for your money back
2014-05-28T21:38:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: Denommus, Maybe most compilers aren't very modular?
2014-05-28T21:38:41Z Denommus: Petit_Dejeuner: hm, what do you mean?
2014-05-28T21:38:41Z pjb: jasom: this is easy, since the compiler of the subset will signal an error when you use something that's outside of the subset.
2014-05-28T21:38:42Z jasom: stassats: okay, that was a contrived example, but I've often been surprised by code generated by smart compilers (sometims it's a memory/speed trade off)
2014-05-28T21:38:53Z jasom: pjb: ah, that makes sense
2014-05-28T21:38:57Z pjb: jasom: but if you don't know that when you're the  implementor, you have bigger problems.
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2014-05-28T21:40:03Z jasom: pjb: Is there exactly one implementor of sbcl?  Everyone adding optimizations to sbcl's code-gen would have to know about the GC (if you didn't have a way to signal an error when generating an allocation)
2014-05-28T21:40:22Z Denommus: pjb: I tend to forget about pypy and rubinius
2014-05-28T21:40:23Z pjb: Implementing a language in itself is just a funny thing language implementors like to do.  It comes from the fact that languages implementors are often language designers too, and being able to implement the language in itself proves that it's "Turing Complete".
2014-05-28T21:40:53Z Denommus: pjb: it also shows some caveats of the language
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2014-05-28T21:41:14Z pjb: jasom: only the implementor of the GC would have to know what part of CL he can use.
2014-05-28T21:41:18Z jasom: pjb: it's also the fact that developers of an X compiler usually prefer working in X to any other language
2014-05-28T21:41:25Z pjb: jasom: true.
2014-05-28T21:41:43Z pjb: And conversely, compilers written in CL show also something :-)
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2014-05-28T21:43:26Z stassats: minion: memo for beach: comments and remarks on http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-value-using-class.html is incorrectly stolen from the slot-boundp-using-class entry
2014-05-28T21:43:26Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-05-28T21:43:27Z Denommus: sometimes this leads to stuff that don't make sense. Rust as a whole is written in Rust, AFAIK. But... Rust isn't very high-level for lexers, parsers and stuff, so this part is somewhat inflated
2014-05-28T21:43:37Z Denommus: CL is very good for that, on the other hand :)
2014-05-28T21:44:22Z jasom: Also if you have implemented a cross-compiler, and you are self-hosting your bootstrap requirements just got a lot smaller
2014-05-28T21:44:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: Denommus, "hm, what do you mean?" they couple the runtime to the compiler
2014-05-28T21:44:58Z Petit_Dejeuner: Maybe that's how they implement eval?
2014-05-28T21:45:53Z Denommus: Petit_Dejeuner: I don't think that's the case
2014-05-28T21:46:20Z Petit_Dejeuner: I hope not.
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2014-05-28T22:07:05Z therik: hi, I'm new to weblocks, trying with-html macro...
2014-05-28T22:07:34Z therik: (with-html (:p "aasdf")) works fine, but it doesn't work with non-string form
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2014-05-28T22:08:09Z therik: like (with-html (:p (concatenate 'string "as" "df"))) doesn't show anything
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2014-05-28T22:08:52Z jasom: therik: read about cl-who
2014-05-28T22:09:07Z jasom: therik: http://weitz.de/cl-who/
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2014-05-28T22:09:54Z jasom: therik: you'll want (:p (str (concatenate 'string "as" "df"))
2014-05-28T22:10:17Z jasom: or alternatively (:p (esc ...)) the difference being whether or not special html characters are escaped
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2014-05-28T22:11:00Z jasom: you can also alternatively write to the output-stream directly
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2014-05-28T22:11:43Z jasom: (:p (some-lisp-form)) generates code to print <p>, then execute some-lisp-form, then print </p>
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2014-05-28T22:13:57Z jasom: this is all only for tag contents though; attributes are evaluated to produce a result, so (:p :class (concatenate 'string "as" "df") (str (concatenate 'string "zx" "cv"))
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2014-05-28T22:14:53Z therik: ah I see
2014-05-28T22:15:01Z therik: I removed that (esc because it said undefined function
2014-05-28T22:15:21Z jasom: If it said undefined function, then it wasn't in a with-html block
2014-05-28T22:15:29Z therik: I don't get it
2014-05-28T22:15:36Z jasom: oh! or you're using the wrong esc
2014-05-28T22:15:52Z jasom: it should be with-html-output:esc
2014-05-28T22:16:07Z therik: there was symbol conflict, I uninterned esc and added cl-who into my package
2014-05-28T22:16:10Z therik: now it works fine
2014-05-28T22:16:18Z jasom: there you go then
2014-05-28T22:16:25Z therik: thank you
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2014-05-28T22:16:35Z jasom: esc isn't a function, btw, it's just a symbol that the cl-who macros recognize and treat specially
2014-05-28T22:16:45Z therik: why didn't it work then?
2014-05-28T22:16:54Z therik: it shouldn't be treated as function then, right?
2014-05-28T22:16:55Z jasom: You weren't using the symbol esc from cl-who
2014-05-28T22:17:03Z jasom: so it didn't treat it specially and tried to call a function
2014-05-28T22:17:07Z therik: ah right
2014-05-28T22:17:20Z therik: I still have hard time wrapping my head around symbols
2014-05-28T22:17:48Z jasom: therik: They are amazing once you get your head wrapped around them, because having symbols rather than just using strings as identifiers makes metaprogramming far safer
2014-05-28T22:18:24Z therik: I'm looking forward :)
2014-05-28T22:18:37Z jasom: IMO the main reason why scheme has to go through shuch gymnastics for hygienic macros is that it doesn't treat symbols and packages the way CL does.
2014-05-28T22:19:48Z therik: what's the difference between hygienic and regular macros?
2014-05-28T22:20:20Z dim: regular ones might piggy back on your symbols
2014-05-28T22:20:32Z dim: in buggy cases, without the macro user realizing
2014-05-28T22:20:45Z foom: hygenic macros let you include code from an argument to the macro within your macro expansion, without e.g. your let or flet affecting the caller's code.
2014-05-28T22:20:48Z jasom: therik: they make it so you don't accidentally shadow variables.  In CL that's unlikely so long as you use gensyms and fully qualified symbols appropriately
2014-05-28T22:20:49Z dim: in clever cases, because it's useful to be doing so
2014-05-28T22:21:27Z therik: ah I see
2014-05-28T22:21:29Z Bicyclidine: for example, in current sbcl, with-simple-restart is unhygenic with respect to the symbol 'stream' in the format arguments! fun
2014-05-28T22:21:40Z stassats: not in current-current
2014-05-28T22:22:11Z foom: (let ((a 0) (b 1) (clever-macro (do-something a b))) ;; what if clever-macro binds a and b around the body? Oops!
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2014-05-28T22:22:32Z foom: This is why you see people always using gensym to make symbols for their macros.
2014-05-28T22:22:57Z jasom: foom: it goes beyond gensym though, otherwise scheme wouldn't have done their crazy define-syntax stuff
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2014-05-28T22:23:29Z jasom: foom: consider (flet ((foo () (do-something)) (clever-macro-that-generates-a-call-to-foo))
2014-05-28T22:23:42Z foom: Yes, that's the same thing.
2014-05-28T22:23:57Z foom: Oh wait sorry, backwards.
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2014-05-28T22:24:25Z jasom: foom: it's backwards, and it's important because functions are typically global and dynamic wheras most variables are not
2014-05-28T22:24:35Z Bicyclidine: well, presumably your clever-macro was supposed to generate something with a and b, so it's not that different
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2014-05-28T22:25:31Z jasom: foom: but if your macro only generates calls to functions named by unexported symbols, then it becomes vanishingly unlikely to be an issue
2014-05-28T22:25:53Z jasom: foom: well along with the fact that you aren't allowed to flet symbols in the common-lisp package
2014-05-28T22:27:47Z stassats: what? you don't write code like (flet ((#1=#.(gensym) () 1)) (clever-macro-that-generates-a-call-to-foo) (#1#))?
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2014-05-28T22:28:12Z foom: Functions are lexical, not dynamic.
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2014-05-28T22:28:23Z foom: But yes. Functions are typically global and lexical, wheras most variables are either global and dynamic (and so, using "let" on them to change the value is generally expected/desired), or local (in which case the macro doesn't want to be able to get to it anyways)
2014-05-28T22:28:51Z foom: I'd say the usual rule is "don't flet a global function, you jerk". :)
2014-05-28T22:29:34Z jasom: right
2014-05-28T22:30:09Z jasom: foom: can you name every single global function that is imported into your current package?
2014-05-28T22:30:30Z stassats: package locks!
2014-05-28T22:31:44Z jasom: stassats: are mentioned where in the standard?
2014-05-28T22:31:56Z stassats: there
2014-05-28T22:32:13Z foom: you can always just (funcall (symbol-function 'foo)) in your macro. :)
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2014-05-28T22:32:42Z Bicyclidine: how inefficient
2014-05-28T22:33:44Z jasom: foom: now the question is if a conforming implementation is allowed to open-code that
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2014-05-28T22:36:09Z pjb: Perhaps for FOO. Definitely for CL:TERPRI
2014-05-28T22:36:29Z pjb: (funcall (symbol-function 'cl:terpri)) can be compiled exactly as (cl:terpri).
2014-05-28T22:36:43Z Bicyclidine: i don't see how it could open code anything outside of cl
2014-05-28T22:37:03Z foom: there's no reason why it has to be any less efficient, either way.
2014-05-28T22:37:12Z pjb: It could prove at compilation time that the symbol-function at run time will always be the function defined lexically.
2014-05-28T22:37:14Z jasom: Well the question is is (funcall (symbol-function 'foo)) equivalent to a call to a function named 'foo
2014-05-28T22:37:26Z pjb: As long as it's not declared not-inline, it could be inlined.
2014-05-28T22:37:35Z jasom: pjb: only if it is defined in the same file
2014-05-28T22:37:43Z jasom: clhs 3.2.2.3
2014-05-28T22:37:43Z specbot: Semantic Constraints: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm
2014-05-28T22:37:45Z pjb: compilation unit.
2014-05-28T22:37:49Z jasom: "A call within a file to a named function that is defined in the same file refers to that function, unless that function has been declared notinline. The consequences are unspecified if functions are redefined individually at run time or multiply defined in the same file."
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2014-05-28T22:38:05Z pjb: But a compiler could make cross compilation unit static analysis.  This is not excluded by the standard.
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2014-05-28T22:38:42Z jasom: pjb: yes, but it is only allowed to assume the function is unchanged if the function is declared inline
2014-05-28T22:38:47Z foom: It'd be nice if the compiler could do that by default for &key args. :)
2014-05-28T22:38:55Z pjb:  cross compilation-unit
2014-05-28T22:39:13Z Bicyclidine: hm, i didn't think (funcall (symbol-function 'foo) ...) constituted a call to foo in the page's esnse
2014-05-28T22:39:17Z pjb: jasom: it can also prove that it is never changed.
2014-05-28T22:39:27Z pjb: A proof is better than an assumption.
2014-05-28T22:39:35Z jasom: pjb: and then you call (defun) at runtime
2014-05-28T22:39:42Z foom: We have a macro which expands defun with &key into an internal-defun without &key, and a inline function with &key which calls that.
2014-05-28T22:39:45Z jasom: you can't prove they won't call defun at some point in the future
2014-05-28T22:39:51Z jasom: or (setf (symbol-function 'foo))
2014-05-28T22:40:04Z pjb: jasom: you can be able to prove it of course.
2014-05-28T22:40:20Z jasom: pjb: right, so long as you can prove that arbitrary code can't be executed in the future
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2014-05-28T22:40:29Z jasom: which means no debugger is present
2014-05-28T22:40:34Z foom: Which obviously means you cannot redefine the function changing its signature later on, but it lets you use keyword args without runtime overhead, so win.
2014-05-28T22:40:38Z pjb: Now, not when you call compile-file or compile obviously.  But when you call (asdf:oos 'asdf:compile-op :system) or when you call save-lisp-image
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2014-05-28T22:41:42Z jasom: foom: if you declare the ftype then it can do that
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2014-05-28T22:41:52Z jasom: "The argument syntax and number of return values for all functions whose ftype is declared at compile time must remain the same at run time."
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2014-05-28T22:43:17Z jasom: pjb: remind me which one is compile-op?
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2014-05-28T22:44:18Z pjb: ?
2014-05-28T22:44:30Z jasom: pjb: nevermind, found it in asdf documentation
2014-05-28T22:44:36Z jasom: I think ou mean 'asdf:program-op
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2014-05-28T22:45:00Z pjb: perhaps yes.
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2014-05-28T22:46:02Z foom: jasom: hmm, didn't remember that. SBCL doesn't, unfortuantely, but, it could (for ftype-declared fns) and be within spec. That's a good thing to keep in mind.
2014-05-28T22:46:25Z jasom: foom: it can also do so for any functions that are legal to inline (obviously)
2014-05-28T22:46:29Z foom: right
2014-05-28T22:46:46Z foom: although sbcl always inlines things marked inline, it's not very smart about that. :)
2014-05-28T22:46:56Z jasom: so clhs 3.2.2.3 says "file" but I wonder if it means "compilation unit"
2014-05-28T22:47:09Z jasom: foom: which is really funny with self-recursive functions
2014-05-28T22:47:46Z jasom: since locally declaring it notinline inhibits extra optimizations versus not having it declared inline at all
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2014-05-28T22:51:27Z stassats: for function calls within a file, SBCL doesn't go through an indirection when calling the function
2014-05-28T22:51:44Z stassats: subsequent redefines won't be picked up by the caller
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2014-05-28T22:52:31Z stassats: now said that, i can't demonstrate the behaviour
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2014-05-28T22:54:01Z stassats: well, i was thinking something else, disregard the above
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2014-05-28T23:06:24Z foom: CMUCL had that mode, :block-compile to compile-file.
2014-05-28T23:06:36Z foom: SBCL still seems to have that arg, but ISTR the code to support it was ripped out
2014-05-28T23:07:33Z nyef: I've heard the same thing, but there's at least some vestigial bits of it around.
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2014-05-28T23:07:38Z p_l: would block compilation with something like relocation notes to know where to patch callers work with that?
2014-05-28T23:08:28Z stassats: what about type specialization?
2014-05-28T23:08:47Z stassats: just burning in the function addresses isn't much of a win
2014-05-28T23:09:10Z foom: Well, it also bypasses the boxing of args.
2014-05-28T23:09:20Z foom: http://common-lisp.net/project/cmucl/doc/cmu-user/compiler-hint.html#toc178
2014-05-28T23:09:43Z stassats: that's what i meant, and that's on what p_l's suggestion wouldn't work
2014-05-28T23:09:59Z foom: you don't need block compilation to do this.
2014-05-28T23:10:19Z foom: You can have the compiler *assume* that the function won't change, and if it does change, stick a stub in the old location which mangles the args appropriately and calls the new function.
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2014-05-28T23:11:50Z foom: It'd be pretty awesome if sbcl learned how to do that!
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2014-05-28T23:23:33Z p_l: foom: if the code in each unit would be also fully position-independent, or at least relocatable, it would be nice too... randomized address space support :3
2014-05-28T23:25:03Z nyef: p_l: Umm... IIRC, the only non-relocatable things in SBCL are read-only-space, static-space, and possibly the linkage-table.
2014-05-28T23:25:38Z jasom: what's the relative branch limit on x86_64?
2014-05-28T23:26:03Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood)
2014-05-28T23:26:10Z stassats: 32-bits?
2014-05-28T23:26:46Z nyef: And, actually, we could make most of the initial contents of static-space relocatable, since most backends keep NIL in a register, and it's the base for static space.
2014-05-28T23:27:24Z nyef: x86oids need not apply, but they're joke platforms anyway. (-:
2014-05-28T23:28:15Z stassats: at least you don't need to think "where i can get a zero from?"
2014-05-28T23:28:25Z nyef: True.
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2014-05-28T23:28:43Z p_l: nyef: well, I'd like a fully relocatable image, and some funky ideas regarding FASLs using memory mapped formats and such. And a pony, probably ;)
2014-05-28T23:28:43Z stassats: my store byte thingy looks bad without a zero
2014-05-28T23:28:47Z nyef: I'd still like to see a split-stack and partitioned-register-set x86-64 backend.
2014-05-28T23:29:12Z stassats: i'm leaning towards maps
2014-05-28T23:29:39Z p_l: nyef: so... the bill will be for two ponies, then? ;)
2014-05-28T23:29:44Z stassats: i'm running exclusively safepoints for a couple of years now
2014-05-28T23:29:45Z nyef: stassats: Okay, how about defining the two bytes in question to be mostly garbage, with only the low two bits being significant...?
2014-05-28T23:29:49Z stassats: not strict, though
2014-05-28T23:30:03Z nyef: That means you can easily get a value with the significant bits zero.
2014-05-28T23:30:28Z stassats: good, since i'm taking low bits from NIL, which are set
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2014-05-28T23:30:40Z stassats: for the set state
2014-05-28T23:30:46Z nyef: Right, list-pointer-lowtag.
2014-05-28T23:30:59Z nyef: So, reg_PC, and anything containing a stack pointer or frame pointer has low two bits clear.
2014-05-28T23:31:01Z stassats: this is so much magic
2014-05-28T23:31:34Z nyef: Heh. Just remember, my original P-A scheme called for stashing the TN-offset of the register that would be checked for P-A-I as the P-A value.
2014-05-28T23:32:09Z nyef: And magic? You think what I did to that poor, poor syscall number isn't MAGIC?
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2014-05-28T23:38:01Z stassats: well, now i need a better comparison for the interrupted state
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2014-05-28T23:39:02Z nyef: Isn't there a bit-test instruction of some sort?
2014-05-28T23:40:14Z stassats: the constant to test is 0xf000100, possibly modified to 0xf0000, that can be testable
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2014-05-28T23:40:40Z stassats: 0xf0000 is a fixnum, and instead of shifting it would be adding 1
2014-05-28T23:40:55Z nyef: Hrm. Yeah, I guess I can see that.
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2014-05-28T23:41:37Z nyef: Wait. Is there some way to use a carry-generating operation to get the 1 bit and then shift?
2014-05-28T23:42:35Z nyef: Basically have carry set as your condition, then roll the value left nine bits to get the bit in the right place, while only taking up a halfword for the data?
2014-05-28T23:43:18Z stassats: but, i need to clear the garbage bits with shifting
2014-05-28T23:44:11Z stassats: rorx?
2014-05-28T23:45:50Z nyef: If you're doing a halfword load, would there even BE garbage bits?
2014-05-28T23:46:26Z stassats: halfword would work
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2014-05-28T23:48:12Z stassats: but half word would require shifting, since #xf0000 is 20 bits
2014-05-28T23:48:58Z nyef: Don't you need a 1 bit in there as well?
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2014-05-28T23:50:25Z nyef: Hrm.
2014-05-28T23:50:29Z stassats: adc?
2014-05-28T23:50:42Z stassats: with carry from the comparison
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2014-05-28T23:51:47Z nyef: Hrm. Damn, RRX really IS the only way to get the carry bit in there with the shifter. That's no fun.
2014-05-28T23:52:16Z stassats: add with carry
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2014-05-28T23:54:10Z nyef: Hrm... Something crazy in terms of shifted XOR, maybe?
2014-05-28T23:54:11Z stassats: and, this is #lisp...
2014-05-28T23:54:15Z nyef: Oops.
2014-05-28T23:54:25Z nyef: Guess we both got distracted.
2014-05-28T23:54:46Z drmeister: I just reimplemented CATCH/THROW, TAGBODY/GO, BLOCK/RETURN-FROM and UNWIND-PROTECT  -  I sweated those special operators the first time I implemented them.   This time around it was a bit easier and I caught some bugs in the interpreted versions that were never tripped.
2014-05-28T23:55:17Z drmeister: They still use C++ exception handling but now only integer values are passed in the exception class.
2014-05-28T23:55:24Z pjb: Implement it a third time to avoid the second system effect.
2014-05-28T23:55:27Z nyef: Ah well, still probably better than that period of a few months when I was first getting started with Lisp hacking, where I spent a lot of my time in-channel swapping microcode details with a C programmer who was working on a project to do the same thing that I was.
2014-05-28T23:55:40Z pjb: just joking.  That sounds good.
2014-05-28T23:55:50Z stassats: and nth system effects?
2014-05-28T23:56:29Z drmeister: What's the second system effect?
2014-05-28T23:56:44Z nyef: drmeister: It's a classic. Have a quick google for it.
2014-05-28T23:56:58Z nyef: (How classic? Fred Brooks classic!)
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2014-05-28T23:57:44Z drmeister: Ah - I see - but it flies in the face of "throw away the prototype".
2014-05-28T23:58:24Z nyef: Another Fred Brooks thing "build one to throw away, you will anyhow".
2014-05-28T23:59:29Z nyef: Even now, however many years later (is it up over three and a half decades yet?), The Mythical Man-Month is an amazing piece of work.
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2014-05-29T00:02:43Z drmeister: Writing complex systems is hard.
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2014-05-29T00:03:35Z drewc: nyef: strangely enough, was talking with Mike about that piece of work just recently, and it was very relevant. Amazing it is.
2014-05-29T00:05:22Z nyef: Yeah, I'm tempted to find my copy and put it on my queue to re-read.
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2014-05-29T00:14:43Z drmeister: In my old CATCH/THROW etc. I was passing the return values in the exception class that I threw and caught in the CATCH special operator.   After spending the night with the ECL source code I realized it was much easier to modify UNWIND-PROTECT to save and restore the return values around the cleanup forms.
2014-05-29T00:15:13Z zRecursive: After `svn update`, how to use `svn diff` to get the most recent changes ?
2014-05-29T00:15:38Z JuanitoJons quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2014-05-29T00:15:42Z drmeister: zRecursive - you have to specify the previous revision number
2014-05-29T00:16:02Z drmeister: That will give you the diff between what you have and any previous revision.
2014-05-29T00:16:04Z zRecursive: drmeister: how ?
2014-05-29T00:16:34Z zRecursive: using git, i just use `git show 'HEAD@{1}..HEAD'
2014-05-29T00:16:38Z drmeister: svn diff -r <revision>
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2014-05-29T00:16:57Z drmeister: What revision do you have after svn update?
2014-05-29T00:17:16Z zRecursive: how to know it ?
2014-05-29T00:17:47Z drmeister: "svn update"  - it will print the revision.
2014-05-29T00:17:48Z jasom: I kind of feel like using LoL or On Lisp style macros is a second system like effect for lisp programmers
2014-05-29T00:18:21Z jasom: "Macros are scary" -> "Look at all the cool stuff you can do with macros" -> "Okay I'm not doing that again unless there's no other way"
2014-05-29T00:18:26Z zRecursive: drmeister: but i have ignored it and `svn update` has finished
2014-05-29T00:18:41Z drmeister: Just do it again.
2014-05-29T00:19:10Z p_l: jasom: the last stage could be considered "okay, that was awesome, but nukes against flies is probably not the best option"
2014-05-29T00:19:15Z zRecursive: Can i find it in .svn ?
2014-05-29T00:19:19Z drmeister: Just type "svn revision"  - I get "Updating ."  "At revision 20".
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2014-05-29T00:19:36Z drmeister s svn screwed up a while ago.
2014-05-29T00:20:16Z zRecursive: svn is old indeed
2014-05-29T00:20:37Z drmeister: Then I would say 'svn diff -r 19' and I'll see the revisions.
2014-05-29T00:21:17Z zRecursive: drmeister: thanks, i will suggest CCL to use git instead of svn
2014-05-29T00:21:18Z jasom: drmeister: you need to use svnversion to get the revision
2014-05-29T00:21:23Z jasom: svn update might not be right
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2014-05-29T00:22:09Z drmeister: jasom: Really?    Perhaps so.   I'm speaking from my personal experience/habits.
2014-05-29T00:22:48Z zRecursive: The newest CCL revision is 16097
2014-05-29T00:23:51Z drmeister: This is interesting - I just noticed that files are closing at odd times - long after they have been used.  Boehm finalizers are at work.
2014-05-29T00:24:22Z drmeister: I currently print a warning if a file is closed with abort=true.
2014-05-29T00:24:26Z jasom: zRecursive: http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.7/svn.tour.revs.specifiers.html#svn.tour.revs.keywords
2014-05-29T00:24:43Z zRecursive: jasom: thanks
2014-05-29T00:25:26Z jasom: zRecursive: and something like HEAD~ often isn't usefull in svn since svn doesn't have branches
2014-05-29T00:25:31Z drmeister: I just started using git.    I'm still nervous around it.    github has a 100MB file size limit and I've accidentally added files that big and it was hell getting them out.
2014-05-29T00:25:47Z drewc: jasom: I must be at the "OMG why do second system devs think they are language designers" phase of my development career, for I agree with you 100% about macros and hate learning new languages built on lisp :)
2014-05-29T00:25:48Z jasom: You can do HEAD-1 but you end up with the last change to any branch
2014-05-29T00:25:50Z zRecursive: jasom: i see
2014-05-29T00:26:28Z jasom: zRecursive: PREV gives you the last time a specific item changed, which is usually more useful
2014-05-29T00:26:37Z drewc made a lot of second system mistakes himself ... macros, MOP ... ugh.
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2014-05-29T00:27:47Z jasom: zRecursive: git is essentially the anti-cvs and svn is "We have a versioned file-system; how can we use that to make a better cvs"
2014-05-29T00:27:56Z jasom: so the two do most things differently
2014-05-29T00:28:38Z zRecursive: right, but i prefer to Git
2014-05-29T00:28:45Z jasom: drmeister: if it was the most recent commit then git commit --amend will fix it, otherwise you can rebase or use filter-branch
2014-05-29T00:28:51Z drmeister: Whew - my first stage CL compilation (43 source files, everything but CLOS) just compiled with Boehm and my new non-local exit special operator implementation.
2014-05-29T00:29:06Z jasom: I think yo ucan also make a git configuration that will prevent you from staging files over 100mb
2014-05-29T00:29:55Z jasom: ah, not staging but at least pre-commit
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2014-05-29T00:40:09Z drmeister: jasom: What is all this "staging" and "pre-commit" in git?     Currently I'm a monkey on a keyboard with git - following tutorials and cheat sheets.    I've used "svn" for years.
2014-05-29T00:41:30Z jasom: drmeister: http://tom.preston-werner.com/2009/05/19/the-git-parable.html
2014-05-29T00:41:40Z nyef: drmeister: You have your working tree, and you have your repository. And then you have a bit known as the "index" which are "those things which are (or were) part of the working tree that have been selected for the next commit.
2014-05-29T00:41:50Z drmeister: git feels like svn but there's always one extra step to do things and it feels less streamlined and more breadboardy.
2014-05-29T00:42:55Z nyef: SVN feels like CVS, only even *LESS* user friendly.
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2014-05-29T00:43:20Z drmeister: So there is a staging "stage" where you set up what will be committed?
2014-05-29T00:43:35Z jasom: drmeister: it's called the "index"
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2014-05-29T00:43:56Z nyef: Yes. You can skip it and just say "commit everything", or "ask me which diff hunks to commit", but it's a lot easier to work with the index.
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2014-05-29T00:44:05Z nyef: Well, when you're doing something complex, that is.
2014-05-29T00:44:11Z drmeister: Why "git add",  "git commit" and then "git push".  What does "git commit" do?
2014-05-29T00:44:23Z jasom: drmeister: when you "git add" it stages something to be commited, and then "git commit" commits it to your local repository
2014-05-29T00:44:28Z nyef: Git commit produces an actual commit in the history from the index.
2014-05-29T00:44:49Z nyef: Git push sends some set of commits to a branch on a remote repository.
2014-05-29T00:44:53Z oGMo: drmeister: staging is saying "i'm specifically talking about this set of changes," and commit commits that set
2014-05-29T00:45:11Z oGMo: if you've ever used p4, it's sortof like that, but less stupid
2014-05-29T00:45:14Z jasom: drmeister: it's so you can do partial commits; if you just want to commit everythign then you can "git commit -a"
2014-05-29T00:45:31Z oGMo: if you commit everything, it stages all changes it sees and commits those, in one step
2014-05-29T00:46:07Z drmeister: What is a "partial commit"?
2014-05-29T00:46:17Z nyef: And there's "git add --patch", where you pick just the changes you want to go into the index.
2014-05-29T00:46:17Z oGMo: "not all the changes in the working tree"
2014-05-29T00:46:18Z jasom: drmeister: you commit only some of your changes
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2014-05-29T00:47:16Z oGMo: e.g., "i made changes to X, Y, and Z, but i only want Y and Z and a few lines of X in this commit"
2014-05-29T00:48:11Z pillton: drmeister: <prefix>/share/git-core/contrib/git.el provides a pretty good interface for doing the add, commit thing.
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2014-05-29T00:48:39Z nyef: "I've managed to get the thread stuff mostly working, with a number of loose ends in my working tree, but I've just found a bug with some of the runtime support about twenty commits back..." is another good scenario.
2014-05-29T00:48:55Z jasom: drmeister: also I can highly recommend http://git-scm.com/book but it's a long read
2014-05-29T00:49:01Z jasom: nyef: I use stash for that
2014-05-29T00:49:12Z drmeister: I see - so whatever is in the index when I say "git push" those are the changes that are sent to the repository.
2014-05-29T00:49:32Z jasom: drmeister: not "sent" since the repository is on your disk
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2014-05-29T00:49:46Z nyef: jasom: Yes, I prepare the commit that I need to fix the issue, stash everything else, then rebase to position the commit appropriately in history or to squash it onto a broken commit.
2014-05-29T00:50:10Z nyef: drmeister: No, whatever is in the index when you say "git commit" becomes the changes in the commit you make.
2014-05-29T00:50:17Z jasom: drmeister: when you do a "git commit" everything in the index becomes the new commit
2014-05-29T00:50:41Z jasom: drmeister: when you do a "git push" it pushes what's in your local repository to a remote repository
2014-05-29T00:50:48Z nyef: Forget about push for a bit, it's only for when you want to publish your changes so that other people can see htem.
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2014-05-29T00:52:13Z drmeister: So I have my source code tree on my system and a repository on my system?
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2014-05-29T00:53:50Z oGMo: everything is local, in the directory you cloned to (or init'd)
2014-05-29T00:54:16Z oGMo: it's local and independent even if there are other copies/mirrors/etc out there
2014-05-29T00:55:00Z drmeister: But, can I think of it like a source code repository on my system that I'm committing to and what "git push" does is update a remote repository to match my local repository?
2014-05-29T00:55:13Z nyef: Yes.
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2014-05-29T00:55:37Z nyef: That's *exactly* the way to think about it.
2014-05-29T00:55:55Z wrsrw1: gah! you know you're antisocial when you find yourself joining a #lisp chatroom and you secretly use C++ instead.
2014-05-29T00:55:59Z leo2007: anyone read LoL? is the sortf macro correct?
2014-05-29T00:56:26Z drmeister: Ok, I can feel good about that.   It's like I have a subversion server on my system that I'm manipulating with "git add", "git rm" and "git commit"  and when I want to make a remote repository look like mine I use "git push".
2014-05-29T00:56:38Z leo2007: it seems it doesn't handle side-effect in a PLACE.
2014-05-29T00:56:51Z wrsrw1: I always do this: git push origin master
2014-05-29T00:56:57Z wrsrw1: I don't know what it does though
2014-05-29T00:57:01Z wrsrw1: svn update --> git pull
2014-05-29T00:57:08Z drmeister: wrsrw1: I'm writing a Common Lisp system in C++ - welcome!
2014-05-29T00:57:23Z wrsrw1: drmeister: sweet.
2014-05-29T00:57:54Z jasom: drmeister: that's a reasonable first approximation, though only a minimal one.  If you have time, read pro git, if you don't read the blog article I linked earlier
2014-05-29T00:57:54Z wrsrw1: i made a lisp-like interpetor in C++ a while back, it worked fine until you tried to do recursive function evaluation
2014-05-29T00:58:26Z drmeister: wrsrw1: Macros kill interpreters especially S-expression walking ones.
2014-05-29T00:58:50Z wrsrw1: yeah i totally got screwed with recursive evaluation there
2014-05-29T00:58:57Z wrsrw1: are you learning git?
2014-05-29T00:59:03Z wrsrw1: i use it, i know a lot about it
2014-05-29T00:59:07Z drmeister: ARGH - my new CATCH/THROW etc don't fix my problem compiling CLOS with the Boehm garbage collector.
2014-05-29T00:59:27Z jasom: wrsrw1: I would suggest that if you don't know what "git push origin master" does, you don't know a lot about git
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2014-05-29T00:59:35Z jasom: drmeister: doh!
2014-05-29T00:59:44Z drmeister bangs head against desk several times.
2014-05-29T00:59:50Z wrsrw1: well i know it sends my stuff to the "up line" repository
2014-05-29T00:59:59Z wrsrw1: i don't know why i need to specify "origin master", that's the part i don't know about
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2014-05-29T01:00:27Z wrsrw1: ok, i know a "lot" about it (i.e. enough to get by)
2014-05-29T01:00:27Z drmeister: How do you track down problems with garbage collection in C++.   It's the worst kind of loose pointer problem.
2014-05-29T01:00:45Z wrsrw1: is this true GC?
2014-05-29T01:00:45Z nyef: wrsrw1: "origin" is the name of the "remote" repository. "master" is the name of the branch.
2014-05-29T01:00:47Z wrsrw1: or shared_ptr?
2014-05-29T01:01:03Z nyef: drmeister: ... valgrind?
2014-05-29T01:01:06Z drmeister: wrsrw1: Boehm garbage collector, conservative, non-moving.
2014-05-29T01:01:19Z wrsrw1: ah. that stuff can be really annoying, do you truly need it?
2014-05-29T01:01:23Z wrsrw1: it will solve the cycle problem
2014-05-29T01:01:25Z nyef has no idea, last seriously tried to use C at some point before the advent of templates.
2014-05-29T01:01:25Z drmeister: Does valgrind run on OS X these days?   Does it work with Boehm.
2014-05-29T01:01:30Z nyef: Err... C++.
2014-05-29T01:01:30Z drmeister reaches for the google.
2014-05-29T01:01:32Z wrsrw1: in my LISP i had to be very careful to avoid cycles
2014-05-29T01:01:44Z wrsrw1: your GC tool won't have that problem though
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2014-05-29T01:02:09Z nyef: There's a reason that refcount collectors are considered to be a joke.
2014-05-29T01:02:21Z jasom: drmeister: valgrind works with C++, not sure about boehm
2014-05-29T01:02:24Z wrsrw1: they are faster though
2014-05-29T01:02:26Z drmeister: wrsrw1: It's a long story but yes, I need Boehm to implement a real garbage collector.
2014-05-29T01:02:40Z jasom: wrsrw1: actually they are slower if you count amortized
2014-05-29T01:02:52Z wrsrw1: what exactly is the problem you're seeing, drmeister? is it a crash or a leak?
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2014-05-29T01:04:02Z drmeister: Pointers inexplicably pointing to things they shouldn't be, or becoming invalid.   I have encountered this several times in the past two weeks, each time I identified classes that contained pointers that were being allocated on the regular heap where Boehm didn't see the pointers and garbage collected/reused the memory they pointed to.
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2014-05-29T01:04:29Z jasom: drmeister: are you using regular new allocation allong side boehm?
2014-05-29T01:05:02Z drmeister: I have spent days identifying every class and container I could think of that should have been allocated in the Boehm space and moved them into the Boehm space.
2014-05-29T01:05:20Z wrsrw1: does boehm override new?
2014-05-29T01:05:23Z wrsrw1: is that how it works?
2014-05-29T01:05:34Z wrsrw1: are you using STL at all with all their custom allocators and stuff?
2014-05-29T01:05:46Z drmeister: jasom: Yes - there is a LOT of regular new allocation going on because I'm using the LLVM library and the Clang library as well as several other C++ libraries.
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2014-05-29T01:05:53Z nyef: drmeister: So, you're still missing some root pointers, somehow?
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2014-05-29T01:06:19Z drmeister: nyef: Yes - somehow.    I wrote a static analyzer to identify them - (cough) - I need Boehm to run it.
2014-05-29T01:06:49Z nyef: So, by the time you get the analyzer to run, you'll have found and fixed the bugs. Lovely.
2014-05-29T01:07:12Z wrsrw1: i'm thinking the problem could lie on the deallocation side
2014-05-29T01:07:15Z nyef: I'm *SO* reminded of the fate of my first major Lisp project. (-:
2014-05-29T01:07:19Z drmeister: wrsrw1: I was using stl containers.   I implemented a GC aware version of std::vector and std::array and I moved everything I could find over to them.
2014-05-29T01:07:37Z wrsrw1: by GC aware do you mean you used a custom allocator?
2014-05-29T01:07:44Z nyef: wrsrw1: Right, the problem is that some stuff is getting deallocated or moved that shouldn't be.
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2014-05-29T01:08:25Z wrsrw1: am i right in assuming that in this GC land you should never "delete" something?
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2014-05-29T01:08:32Z wrsrw1: but let the GC do the deallocation?
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2014-05-29T01:09:25Z drmeister: wrsrw1: More than that - I had to implement them from scratch - I can't rely on stl containers to do things in the right order.  The vector/array must be GC-consistent at all times... actually that's not the problem with Boehm.   It is much less fussy than the MPS GC library.
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2014-05-29T01:09:46Z wrsrw1: sounds fun to reinvent STL =)
2014-05-29T01:10:00Z drmeister: wrsrw1: Right - I never "delete" anything with GC.
2014-05-29T01:10:08Z wrsrw1: so does GDB tell you where it crashes?
2014-05-29T01:10:26Z wrsrw1: is it at random spots? or what?
2014-05-29T01:10:49Z drmeister: wrsrw1: It's not so bad - I've gotten pretty good at template programming.
2014-05-29T01:11:01Z wrsrw1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POCO_C%2B%2B_Libraries
2014-05-29T01:11:06Z wrsrw1: i've never used POCO but they have their own GC
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2014-05-29T01:11:13Z wrsrw1: maybe a last resort alternative to look at?
2014-05-29T01:11:26Z wrsrw1: oh it's ref. counting based
2014-05-29T01:11:27Z wrsrw1: nevermind
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2014-05-29T01:12:34Z wrsrw1: maybe some code somewhere is doing regular allocations and storing a pointer in there. that would make it so the GC code can't find the pointers.
2014-05-29T01:14:17Z wrsrw1: another cause could be using regular pointers on the stack
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2014-05-29T01:16:25Z drmeister: wrsrw1: That's what I think the problem is.   I've been tracking down that problem with different classes for weeks.  Everytime I find one and move it to Boehm allocation I get a little farther.   It's currently crashing on file 50 of 70 files.   In boot.lsp - in the statement where it creates all of the CLOS classes.
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2014-05-29T01:17:17Z drmeister: Pointers on the stack are handled fine by Boehm.  It wouldn't run at all if that were the case.
2014-05-29T01:17:28Z drmeister: Hmmm.
2014-05-29T01:18:51Z wrsrw1: hey, i have an idea that's about as good as any "business plan" you can find: it's for a "free" site like facebook, but it's only used for guys to breakup with their girlfriend (it would have a nice wizard interface with checkboxes so the guy doesn't have to write a letter by hand). the list of ex-girlfriends could be sold, sort of like what facebook does with all our info.
2014-05-29T01:18:57Z wrsrw1: sorry, i'm off topic
2014-05-29T01:19:19Z wrsrw1: so em, garbage collection. hm.
2014-05-29T01:21:15Z nyef: ... Is that a PCL-based CLOS?
2014-05-29T01:21:22Z drmeister: It's ok - you don't have any details re what could be going wrong.   I'm curious about any ideas on how to debug pointer problems.
2014-05-29T01:21:32Z drmeister: nyef: It's ECL's version of CLOS - whatever that is.
2014-05-29T01:21:53Z nyef: Hrm. I have a vague memory saying that it might be Closette based.
2014-05-29T01:21:57Z drmeister: nyef: I use the ECL Common Lisp source code and compile it on my system.
2014-05-29T01:22:43Z drmeister: I have my own compiler (of course) but everything else is vanilla ECL with a few #+clasp and #-clasp sprinkled in.
2014-05-29T01:23:23Z nyef: Binary chop to find where in the file it dies?
2014-05-29T01:23:55Z drmeister: What is that "binary chop"?
2014-05-29T01:24:11Z wrsrw1: i'm guessing it's a binary search to find the source file that causes the problem
2014-05-29T01:24:17Z nyef: Lose the second half of the file. If it still dies, the problem is in the first half.
2014-05-29T01:24:32Z wrsrw1: so zero in on the problem part?
2014-05-29T01:24:40Z nyef: Yeah, it's a binary search.
2014-05-29T01:24:52Z nyef: Find the construct that triggers it, possibly by involving an explicit call to the GC.
2014-05-29T01:25:02Z drmeister: It's during the bootstrapping phase.    I compile a minimal CL system (no CLOS) and then use that to load and implicitly compile the entire CL system after which it COMPILE-FILEs the whole system.
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2014-05-29T01:25:54Z drmeister: It's crashing in this file: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/bacea00521d7c1f21d83
2014-05-29T01:26:44Z wrsrw1: do those #+compare print things give you output at compile time?
2014-05-29T01:26:45Z wrsrw1: or what?
2014-05-29T01:26:48Z drmeister: somewhere after line 148.   I just added the (eval-when on line 145 to turn on some primitive logging.
2014-05-29T01:27:24Z wrsrw1: hey, that's pretty neat almost-functional code
2014-05-29T01:27:25Z nyef: Add explicit calls to the GC to try and break the pointers quickly.
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2014-05-29T01:27:50Z drmeister: The #+compare print things were from when I was debugging this for the first time (those were bad days).    I put those print statements in there and I compared line by line what ECL produced when it compiled this stuff and what my code generated.
2014-05-29T01:28:00Z wrsrw1: ah
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2014-05-29T01:29:37Z drmeister: Hmmm.   That told me a lot.    It's crashing after line 174
2014-05-29T01:29:54Z wrsrw1: that narrows it down significantly
2014-05-29T01:30:02Z drmeister: It's a single statement:   (setf (slot-value (find-class 'method-combination) 'sealedp) t)
2014-05-29T01:30:14Z drmeister: Hmmmm....
2014-05-29T01:30:20Z nyef: Ah, but it only crashes after a GC runs, doesn't it?
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2014-05-29T01:30:34Z wrsrw1:  (mapc #'si::instance-sig-set all-classes)
2014-05-29T01:30:38Z wrsrw1: that looks suspicious
2014-05-29T01:30:41Z wrsrw1: the ) is after the #
2014-05-29T01:30:47Z wrsrw1: line 169
2014-05-29T01:31:05Z nyef: No, that looks fine.
2014-05-29T01:31:21Z nyef: #'si::instance-sig-set is a reference to a function.
2014-05-29T01:31:27Z wrsrw1: oh.
2014-05-29T01:31:42Z nyef: mapc takes a function and some number of lists as arguments.
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2014-05-29T01:33:16Z drmeister: Yeah - the code is fine, it's the underlying system that is compiling/executing it that is the problem.
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2014-05-29T01:33:23Z nyef: ... This is the first use of (setf slot-value) in the target system, isn't it?
2014-05-29T01:34:05Z nyef: It also occurs to me that adding explicit calls to the GC might prevent it from kicking in when the missing roots are exposed.
2014-05-29T01:34:19Z nyef: That might at least get your analyzer up and running.
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2014-05-29T01:35:14Z drmeister: nyef: That is good advice - but hang on - this error is a little different from what I was getting before - it might be something simple.
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2014-05-29T01:37:30Z drmeister: Some of my additional problems are:  1) I'm using lldb which doesn't work very well - I often can't print variables.   2) At this point I've got compiled Common Lisp in the backtrace and lldb doesn't hook into the DWARF debugging information   3) I don't have a working GC-compatible weak-key-hash-table working at the moment so my DWARF debugging information is sh*t anyways.
2014-05-29T01:37:41Z drmeister: So debugging is fun, fun, fun.
2014-05-29T01:37:59Z wrsrw1: lol
2014-05-29T01:38:00Z drmeister: Good old print-statements - they never let me down.
2014-05-29T01:38:49Z heddwch: Possibly a wrong-headed question, but is there a way to specialize on all except one class other than something like (defmethod ((arg t)) (typecase arg (someclass (do-stuff)) (t (dont-do-stuff))))
2014-05-29T01:38:52Z heddwch: ?*
2014-05-29T01:39:33Z heddwch: er, reversed my clauses, but yea
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2014-05-29T01:41:02Z drmeister: wrsrw1: I assume you are new here - while I'm waiting for the debug version of my compiler to compile the code back up to that spot...   I'm writing a Common Lisp compiler that interoperates with C++.  One that makes it trivial to incorporate C++ libraries in Common Lisp.   It doesn't use CFFI, it uses C++ template programming to build an interface between the C++ code and Common Lisp.
2014-05-29T01:41:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: That sounds complicated.
2014-05-29T01:42:20Z nyef: The main reasons why we don't have a better C++ FFI from a major Common Lisp implementation already are templates and exceptions.
2014-05-29T01:42:40Z wrsrw1: C++1x supposedly has support for lambda's. i wonder if it looks like lisp somehow?
2014-05-29T01:43:49Z drmeister: nyef: Yes - and I'm taking pains to integrate C++ exception handling properly.  In fact, EH is an essential facility for implementing the CL non-local exit special operators.
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2014-05-29T01:43:54Z pjb: :-)
2014-05-29T01:44:11Z drmeister: Why is template programming a problem for CFFI?
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2014-05-29T01:44:56Z owl-v-: ,(atom 1)
2014-05-29T01:45:23Z owl-v-: is (atom) for testing if 1 is an atom?
2014-05-29T01:45:47Z drmeister: (sigh) this time it crashed slightly earlier and crashed hard.   It's not completely deterministic - that's GC for you.
2014-05-29T01:46:03Z drmeister: nyef: I'm going to follow your suggestion and force some GC collections.
2014-05-29T01:48:09Z drmeister: nyef: Have you used Boehm?
2014-05-29T01:48:16Z nyef: drmeister: The next angle is to see if you can trigger a GC every few hundred instructions within that part of the program.
2014-05-29T01:48:23Z nyef: Not that I remember, no.
2014-05-29T01:49:45Z nyef: ... Yeah, I think the closest I've come to it was either someone else's common-lisp-in-C++ project that I had a look at but didn't run, or iOS development (ISTR that the MacOS libraries use/used Boehm as an option).
2014-05-29T01:49:50Z drmeister: But if I force GC's how will that help?    If the problem is pointers that are in regular memory that aren't being treated as roots?
2014-05-29T01:50:18Z nyef: Forcing GCs at toplevel helps to prevent it kicking in while roots are exposed.
2014-05-29T01:50:54Z nyef: Forcing it at intervals within the danger area tries to cause the exposed roots to cause trouble quicker, narrowing down the problem area.
2014-05-29T01:51:44Z drmeister: I did this: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/e2eaa45e88eda4e4a4ee
2014-05-29T01:52:44Z drmeister: I added the #+force-lots-of-gcs(gctools:garbage-collect)
2014-05-29T01:53:43Z nyef: Okay, so that's probably going to mask the problem, but it might get you through that file.
2014-05-29T01:54:44Z nyef: Now, if it still breaks in that area, you know that whatever is triggering it is doing enough allocation to trigger a GC *and* has the missing roots exposed.
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2014-05-29T01:55:46Z nyef: At a guess, it'll be either the first use of (setf slot-value) or the bit involving with-early-accessors, if anything still fails here, that is.
2014-05-29T01:56:20Z nyef: The exposed roots almost have to be some odd dynamic state, don't they? Or do they?
2014-05-29T01:57:11Z drmeister: It takes about five minutes to compile up to that stage.    Here's what the previous run looked like: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/3e5befc75c7b5e72ca28
2014-05-29T01:57:25Z nyef: I guess if they're not dynamic state then it'll break sooner rather than later, but... Well, hopefully at that point you'll have a handle on what objects might contain the bad pointers...
2014-05-29T01:57:43Z drmeister: I really appreciate you folks helping out - it's really helpful to have someone to bounce thoughts off of.
2014-05-29T01:57:56Z drmeister: I'm doing waaay to much lone-wolf programming.
2014-05-29T01:58:26Z nyef: The other angle, if you don't have anyone else to bounce ideas off of, is the Feynman method.
2014-05-29T01:58:45Z nyef: Also helps when it's just a stupidly scary large problem space, too.
2014-05-29T01:58:49Z JuanDaugherty howls
2014-05-29T01:58:53Z drmeister: On line 20 it loads the minimal lisp system as essentially an OS X .dynld library
2014-05-29T01:59:25Z drmeister: Then it loads every source file and compiles each top level form using COMPILE
2014-05-29T01:59:36Z nyef: ... Bad access, address -9, and no backtrace?
2014-05-29T02:01:01Z nyef: Any particular reason why this debugger and not gdb?
2014-05-29T02:02:01Z nyef: And what's in si::instance-sig-set, anyway?
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2014-05-29T02:02:38Z drmeister: nyef: lldb is the standard debugger on OS X for a while.   I did finally get gdb 7.7 to run on OS X a few days ago.
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2014-05-29T02:03:14Z drmeister: Ok, it takes 9 minutes to reproduce the crash.
2014-05-29T02:03:26Z nyef: Extra GC overhead, at least partly?
2014-05-29T02:04:51Z drmeister: Here's what it looks like this time - with backtrace - they are truncated because it hits compiled CL code.  https://gist.github.com/drmeister/c218e6e7d1f6c029df84
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2014-05-29T02:06:11Z nyef: So, you're still in that (mapc #'si::instance-sig-set all-classes) bit?
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2014-05-29T02:06:37Z drmeister: Yeah - lets take a look at that function
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2014-05-29T02:07:39Z nyef: And you're sure that at least MAPC isn't the cause?
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2014-05-29T02:08:40Z drmeister: It was a problem a couple of days ago - the C++ classes I used to step through SEQUENCEs were allocated in regular memory and it crashed very early in the build process.
2014-05-29T02:09:11Z nyef: You might double-check it, just in case.
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2014-05-29T02:10:01Z drmeister: nyef: I don't mean to impose - but do you have skype?    Would you be interested/have time to do a little bit pair programming?    It's totally cool if no - I'm just really, really interested in getting some insight here - I've been chasing my tail for days now.
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2014-05-29T02:11:47Z nyef: I have Skype on my work machine. Perhaps tomorrow? It's already late enough that I'm thinking about settling down for the night.
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2014-05-29T02:12:14Z drmeister: Sure, that's cool - I've had a little too much red wine after dinner anyway (had a lousy day) - and someone should have taken away the keys to my computer.
2014-05-29T02:12:28Z nyef: Heh. It's been one of those days here, too.
2014-05-29T02:12:55Z nyef: To the point where whenever I saw a message on Skype I was thinking "oh god, what *now*".
2014-05-29T02:13:06Z drmeister: Gah - I don't even want to think about it.   Compilers are so much nicer to work with than people.
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2014-05-29T02:14:06Z drmeister: Even the nasty, bloody, cantankerous ones we write ourselves.
2014-05-29T02:14:43Z nyef: From a... 40-day-old change to SBCL causing my use of SBCL internals to come back and finally break (and not on me, I'm still using something much older in production), to one of our AWS nodes screwing up, to... Ugh.
2014-05-29T02:15:24Z drmeister: Ok, I'm oversharing - thanks for your help.   I'm going to double check MAPC and my instanceSigSet function -  it might have something to do with allocation of instances and CLOS classes.
2014-05-29T02:15:34Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/f5661af5a6dcc42e9f88
2014-05-29T02:15:52Z drmeister: Ooops -- that was the si::instance-sig-set function
2014-05-29T02:16:14Z nyef: Yeah, I guessed that much.
2014-05-29T02:16:38Z drmeister: It sets the signature of an instance so that if its class changes then CLOS can update the instance.
2014-05-29T02:16:42Z brucem: drmeister: one idea perhaps ....
2014-05-29T02:16:51Z drmeister: brucem: yes?
2014-05-29T02:17:01Z brucem: drmeister: instead of allocating in the heap, for things that have a definite lifetime, you can use GC_MALLOC_UNCOLLECTABLE and GC_FREE with Boehm.
2014-05-29T02:17:28Z brucem: drmeister: We do that in Open Dylan for things like our thread control blocks (which otherwise aren't explicitly rooted as they're in TLS)
2014-05-29T02:18:09Z drmeister: brucem: I think my problem is figuring out what is left to allocate on the Boehm heap - I THINK I'm allocating absolutely every class that contains smart_ptr<X>  (my pointer type).
2014-05-29T02:18:49Z brucem: drmeister: I was thinking now of your exceptions still.
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2014-05-29T02:19:47Z drmeister: brucem: Ah - I spent the last two days rewriting CATCH/THROW, BLOCK/RETURN-FROM, TAGBODY/GO and UNWIND-PROTECT so that no pointers are passed in the C++ exception classes I use for non-local exits.
2014-05-29T02:20:02Z brucem: drmeister: oof. okay.
2014-05-29T02:20:16Z drmeister: Now all I pass in those exception classes are integers.   I copied ECL's frame stack approach.
2014-05-29T02:20:24Z drmeister: Yeah - I'm getting desperate.
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2014-05-29T02:21:13Z Zhivago: Why didn't you just turn off GC while unwinding?
2014-05-29T02:21:35Z Zhivago: I mean, while the non-local exit is in flight.
2014-05-29T02:21:38Z drmeister: The new implementation is cleaner and works like a charm both in the interpreted version and the compiled version - but "there was no joy in springfield".
2014-05-29T02:22:15Z drmeister: It's crashing in exactly the same place as before.
2014-05-29T02:23:24Z drmeister: Zhivago: I changed what I throw in the exceptions to rule out that exceptions were the problem.  It was a bit of overkill and it didn't solve the problem.
2014-05-29T02:24:01Z Zhivago: So, so it was an issue of diagnosis.
2014-05-29T02:25:12Z drmeister: The problem is probably going to be one stupid C++ "new" that allocates a class that contains pointers hiding in my code somewhere amongst the hundreds of innocent "new"s.
2014-05-29T02:25:45Z drmeister: Grep for "new" in a large C++ project sometime - what a stupid keyword.
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2014-05-29T02:28:59Z drmeister: And I have this freakin' brilliant static analyzer that I wrote that can find stuff like this and it uses generic functions which needs CLOS which needs a running version of Clang which needs Boehm.
2014-05-29T02:29:07Z drmeister bangs head on desk a few times.
2014-05-29T02:29:41Z nyef: ... And there's no chance at running at least the analyzer under another lisp system?
2014-05-29T02:30:17Z nyef: It's too bad you can't check out next week's version of the code and use it to find the problem, huh?
2014-05-29T02:30:33Z drmeister: No - it makes extensive use of the Clang C++ library.  The only Common Lisp that has that is mine.
2014-05-29T02:30:48Z brucem: drmeister: you can disable GC entirely and run on a most with a lot of memory.
2014-05-29T02:30:51Z drmeister: nyef: Does git do that?
2014-05-29T02:31:06Z nyef: No, but it'd be nice.
2014-05-29T02:31:48Z drmeister shakes his fist at the interminable march of time.
2014-05-29T02:32:20Z Fare: drmeister, the march of time was two months ago. We're soon in the june of time.
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2014-05-29T02:36:47Z Fare: CLOS use while the classes are being redefined in another thread... ugh
2014-05-29T02:36:55Z Fare: how do you deal with that?
2014-05-29T02:37:01Z Fare: how does *anyone* deal with that?
2014-05-29T02:37:12Z drmeister: brucem: Disabling GC doesn't get me very far - my machine locks up pretty quickly.
2014-05-29T02:37:40Z Fare: (short of a global interpreter lock)
2014-05-29T02:37:59Z Fare: drmeister, what kind of bug is it? can you bisect it?
2014-05-29T02:38:25Z Fare: is it still trouble enabling a more demanding GC ?
2014-05-29T02:38:50Z drmeister: What do you mean by bisect it?   I saw your recent talk on asdf - I understand it much better now - thanks.
2014-05-29T02:38:51Z p_l: Fare: some kind of STM on CLOS datastructures, coupled with atomic remap of some of them *OR* issuing a task to be run on next GC syncpoint?
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2014-05-29T02:41:00Z Fare: p_l: when method calls can recurse and be long, does every call grab the big CLOS lock, or can you avoid that?
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2014-05-29T02:41:44Z p_l: hmm
2014-05-29T02:41:56Z p_l: I'm not sure I can do it efficently *on SBCL as it is*
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2014-05-29T02:43:20Z p_l: what I was thinking of would be to create: a) queue of updates to perform (precalculated by thread that caused redefinitions) b) whenever said queue has something to do, on next GC syncpoint try brining system into stable state, then run the updates, release syncpoint
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2014-05-29T03:08:52Z spacebat: I'm wondering why (/ 1 3.0s0) => 0.33333334
2014-05-29T03:09:49Z Bike: floating point sure is grand.
2014-05-29T03:09:53Z spacebat: in SBCL... is that last 4 a rounding error, or a bug in the display
2014-05-29T03:10:03Z Bike: No, it's floats!
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2014-05-29T03:10:09Z Bike: Don't use floats and expect fractions.
2014-05-29T03:10:31Z Bike: I don't know why everyone does it. Floating point is decades old, for god's sake.
2014-05-29T03:10:39Z heddwch: FP is generally done in hardware, so that's likely a 'consult intel' thing.
2014-05-29T03:10:46Z spacebat: I don't expect fractions
2014-05-29T03:11:09Z spacebat: perl, pythonm, ruby, javascript don't round the last digit up here
2014-05-29T03:11:11Z Bike: Yes you do. You expect the result to be a bunch of 3s and you're confused by the rounding up, not realizing that the result isn't exact enough.
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2014-05-29T03:11:25Z spacebat: um, no
2014-05-29T03:11:39Z Bike: Most of those use doubles, and hey watch: (/ 1 3.0d0) => 0.3333333333333more threes
2014-05-29T03:11:47Z spacebat: I accept that it is approximate, but with the digits given it should be as accurate as possible
2014-05-29T03:11:58Z spacebat: yes double floats don't exhibit this
2014-05-29T03:12:05Z spacebat: that's my question
2014-05-29T03:12:08Z Bike: It is! But you're using a single float, which is not very accurate.
2014-05-29T03:12:33Z Bike: I mean, insofar as your error in the ten-millionths place is bad.
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2014-05-29T03:12:45Z spacebat: so, 0.33333333 is not representable in a single float is the problem
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2014-05-29T03:12:57Z Bike: Not in double float either. They're binary, after all.
2014-05-29T03:13:29Z spacebat: on the contrary, I didn't specify a repeater there
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2014-05-29T03:14:07Z Bike: Ten isn't a power of two either, yo.
2014-05-29T03:15:23Z spacebat: yup 0.33333333s0 => 0.33333334
2014-05-29T03:15:26Z spacebat: that explains it
2014-05-29T03:16:46Z Bike: Also try decode-float and integer-decode-float.
2014-05-29T03:17:57Z spacebat: thanks I hadn't noticed those before
2014-05-29T03:18:21Z Bike: It seems that (/ 1 3.0s0) ends up as half of 0.66blabla7.
2014-05-29T03:19:13Z heddwch: btw, ccl exhibits the same behavior
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2014-05-29T03:30:33Z Bike: !c printf("%.16f\n", 1.0f/3); => 0.3333333432674408, bam. and heddwch they're both IEEE and there's a half decent chance they're using the same printing code
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2014-05-29T03:31:31Z Bike: printing floats is really hard.
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2014-05-29T03:40:03Z heddwch: Bike: Yea, I just was guessing it probably wasn't unique to SBCL, so tested and confirmed it
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2014-05-29T03:41:25Z Bike: %.8f gets you it in C, even
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2014-05-29T03:42:10Z Bike: seems my C implementation is less adventurous in printing digits by default, though.
2014-05-29T03:42:31Z heddwch: heh, confirms my thing about it being a consult-intel thing ;)
2014-05-29T03:42:52Z heddwch: Although, as you pointed out, it's IEEE. ARM exhibits it too
2014-05-29T03:44:32Z Bike: it's not a flaw. i imagine 11184811 * 2^-25 is as good as it gets.
2014-05-29T03:44:58Z heddwch: Yea, just looking for too much precision. It's not infinite-precision
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2014-05-29T03:57:30Z joe-w-bimedina: What is the proper way to convert this c++ statement to lisp :  int a = 1;         if (!a) continue;
2014-05-29T03:58:39Z Bike: depends on the context. what is being continued?
2014-05-29T04:01:14Z joe-w-bimedina: It is actually this:          cap >> img;       if (!img.data)           continue;  , Description  cap >> img;  sets the webcam feed to the variable img,   if(!img.data)  basically says if that did not succed then...
2014-05-29T04:02:35Z Bike: well, probably something like (whenunless (data img) ...)
2014-05-29T04:03:24Z joe-w-bimedina: what about the continue, I think it is aying if Lisp offers a continue restart to take it?
2014-05-29T04:03:30Z joe-w-bimedina: saying
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2014-05-29T04:03:51Z Bike: No.
2014-05-29T04:04:07Z Bike: That's what the CL function "continue" does, but it's totally different from C.
2014-05-29T04:04:34Z joe-w-bimedina: Ok I believe you, thank you:)
2014-05-29T04:08:15Z heddwch: I've got a bunch of methods on a generic function that's called as a hook. In my application, I need to have all of those methods except for one acquire a lock. I was thinking an :around method specialized on t, but was wondering if there was some way to use CLOS's dispatch to not use this method for that one case where it's not needed.
2014-05-29T04:09:14Z Bike: have a superclass for the methods that need a lock?
2014-05-29T04:10:15Z heddwch: Unfortunately, it dispatches on subclasses of one class. There's no difference between the superclass and these subclasses, they're just subclassed for dispatch. It's a quicklisp library, and I'm just trying to adapt it without forking it so I can just require it in my asdf code.
2014-05-29T04:11:19Z Bike: i guess you could have the :around just check whether it's the lockless class itself, then. gross but
2014-05-29T04:11:46Z heddwch: I can just do a typeclass to do nothing with the one class, and have the t clause acquire the lock, but yea, I was just hoping there would be some cleaner way to dispatch on all but one lol
2014-05-29T04:12:05Z heddwch: Could always just acquire the lock anyway, but that feels even dirtier
2014-05-29T04:13:41Z Bike: yeah, not really without altering source or the class precedences
2014-05-29T04:14:52Z heddwch: All right, thanks :) It's not performance critical, so I'll probably just do the typeclass. Just wanted at least one other person to come up blank with me
2014-05-29T04:14:57Z heddwch: typecase*
2014-05-29T04:15:49Z heddwch: Basically, I'm locking that library's state because it was written for an event loop, but I'm going to be using it in a multithreaded application.
2014-05-29T04:16:15Z heddwch: If my project ever means anything, I'll fork the library and clean it up for concurrency.
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2014-05-29T04:18:30Z heddwch: Breaking the encapsulation anyway, since that generic's not exported, but it seemed like the cleanest way to do it =/
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2014-05-29T04:24:03Z drmeister: My memory is going - how do I interrogate the setf-expansion for (setf (slot-value XXX 'sealedp) t)
2014-05-29T04:24:35Z Bike: get-setf-expansion
2014-05-29T04:24:43Z drmeister: I've tracked my Boehm GC problem down to a single statement: (setf (slot-value (find-class 'method-combination) 'sealedp) t)
2014-05-29T04:25:03Z drmeister: It's coming back with the error: datum: CORE:TOO-MANY-ARGUMENTS-ERROR (:CALLED-FUNCTION #<CL:COMPILED-FUNCTION  :name CL:LAMBDA  :body #<CORE:COMPILED-BODY :functoid 0x126524c30 :code #<CORE:COMPILED-BODY @0x126524a58) > >  > :GIVEN-NUMBER-OF-ARGUMENTS 3 :REQUIRED-NUMBER-OF-ARGUMENTS 1)
2014-05-29T04:25:24Z drmeister: Which it shouldn't be - it's worked for a year - I feel like I've got this Boehm related bug like a rat in a hole.
2014-05-29T04:25:26Z Bike: (get-setf-expansion '(slot-value (find-class 'method-combination) 'sealedp))
2014-05-29T04:25:42Z drmeister: Thank you so much.
2014-05-29T04:26:22Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/232b7ccb3fd47ad75a07
2014-05-29T04:27:02Z Bike: seems reasonable.
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2014-05-29T04:27:39Z drmeister: Something is broken.
2014-05-29T04:28:13Z Bike: well, (setf slot-value) is what you're giving three arguments to. does your (setf slot-value) function think it only takes one argument?
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2014-05-29T04:29:56Z drmeister: I've got to remember where my setf functions are stored - they are in a special dictionary.
2014-05-29T04:30:13Z drmeister: This goes way back.
2014-05-29T04:30:44Z Bike: if setf slot-value is broken i'm a bit surprised anything has worked :P
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2014-05-29T04:31:04Z drmeister: I was just thinking the same thing.
2014-05-29T04:31:16Z drmeister: But I must track this down.
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2014-05-29T04:35:03Z drmeister: (internal monologue) I emulate ECL's si_get_sysprop and si_put_sysprop functions with a hash-table - that can't be the problem - hash-tables work with Boehm.
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2014-05-29T04:37:06Z drmeister: Why does 5.1.1.2 "Setf Expansions" say "List of store variables"   isn't there only one value that is put in the _place_?
2014-05-29T04:37:46Z drmeister: Why multiple?
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2014-05-29T04:38:03Z Bike: (setf (values ...) ...)
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2014-05-29T04:38:28Z drmeister: Ah - thanks.
2014-05-29T04:38:46Z Bike: though most of the time it's just going to be a unit list, yeah.
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2014-05-29T04:40:58Z Fare: not just setf values, but psetf, and much more
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2014-05-29T04:41:57Z drmeister: (fdefinition '(setf slot-value)) -->   #<CL:COMPILED-FUNCTION  :name CL:LAMBDA  :body #<CORE:COMPILED-BODY :functoid 0x126524c30 :code #<CORE:COMPILED-BODY @0x126524a58) > >  >
2014-05-29T04:42:10Z Bike: psetf is multiple places, though...
2014-05-29T04:42:26Z drmeister: Not very illuminating.    Is there any way to interrogate a lambda?
2014-05-29T04:42:37Z Bike: drmeister: this is your system, isn't it?
2014-05-29T04:42:41Z Fare: "interrogate a lambda" ??
2014-05-29T04:42:44Z drmeister: It is.
2014-05-29T04:42:51Z Bike: so you oughta know!
2014-05-29T04:42:51Z Fare: as in, request the lambda-list?
2014-05-29T04:42:57Z Bike: it's the same lambda as before, though, unless the addresses are different
2014-05-29T04:42:59Z drmeister: I oughta.
2014-05-29T04:43:09Z Bike: probably drmeister would be most interested in a source-location
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2014-05-29T04:43:39Z drmeister: source location is broken at the moment - I haven't implemented GC-aware weak-key-hash-table.
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2014-05-29T04:44:37Z drmeister: Holy moly - that's interesting: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/125f9c8d7decc2ac7671
2014-05-29T04:44:47Z drmeister: I didn't know it could do that.
2014-05-29T04:44:50Z drmeister: :-)
2014-05-29T04:45:12Z Bike: jesus, i hope you don't have to read that regularly
2014-05-29T04:45:26Z drmeister: That's LLVM-IR that is.
2014-05-29T04:45:53Z drmeister: Not very nice IR though - I'll be the first to admit - but it works - usually.
2014-05-29T04:47:16Z drmeister: That function only takes one argument - very strange.
2014-05-29T04:47:22Z drmeister: Line 34.
2014-05-29T04:48:10Z Bike: well damn, something went pretty wrong there then. do your other setf definitions work or is this a problem with just the one definition?
2014-05-29T04:48:16Z Fare: drmeister, can't you make it strong and have a lot of RAM until you implement weakness?
2014-05-29T04:49:04Z Fare: or then again, have a plist associated to your objects
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2014-05-29T04:52:00Z drmeister: Fare: No - when I make the source-location-database use a regular hash-table the compilation won't compile more than 10 source files before Boehm errors out because I'm using too much heap.   This crash is happening in like the 50th file. I need to implement a weak-key hash table - which is tricky with Boehm. I've got a plan but I haven't implemented it yet.
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2014-05-29T04:53:04Z drmeister: I've held of until now thinking I could track down the bug without it.   I'm starting to think I should bite the bullet and implement it.
2014-05-29T04:53:54Z drmeister: Maybe I can increase the heap size for Boehm by an order of magnitude...
2014-05-29T04:54:27Z Fare: drmeister, can't you compile your files in different images and/or reset the hash-table between files?
2014-05-29T04:55:01Z drmeister: I could do that.
2014-05-29T04:55:01Z Fare: or then again put the source-location information in proper slots of your objects
2014-05-29T04:55:49Z drmeister: I used to do that - I still have slots for that.
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2014-05-29T04:56:28Z drmeister: Hmmm..
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2014-05-29T04:58:57Z drmeister: I'm just staring at this function that takes one argument and the setf definition says that it takes three - which one of them is lying?
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2014-05-29T05:00:54Z Fare: setf slot-value takes 3: value, object, slot-name
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2014-05-29T05:05:33Z drmeister: Yeah - this function is clearly not a setf function - it's something else.  I guess that Boehm might have collected the setf function that should be here and put another function in it's place because function objects use the same amount of space????
2014-05-29T05:05:57Z Bike: that's, uh, i think you have some bigger problems if that can actually happen
2014-05-29T05:06:38Z heddwch: ^
2014-05-29T05:07:03Z Bike: sure would make programming exciting
2014-05-29T05:07:09Z heddwch: haha
2014-05-29T05:07:26Z drmeister: Yeah - it's a  garbage collection problem.  I'm allocating something that stores a setf function in the regular heap and the Boehm GC doesn't see the pointer to the setf function and collects it?  That's my hypothesis.
2014-05-29T05:08:41Z drmeister: This is what I get for implementing GC late.   My advice to anyone writing a lisp is start with a garbage collector.
2014-05-29T05:10:15Z drmeister: Oh crap - I just spotted it.
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2014-05-29T05:10:43Z drmeister: It's a freakin' stl container I missed.
2014-05-29T05:11:32Z drmeister: Yes, yes, yes!
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2014-05-29T05:12:29Z heddwch: :D grats
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2014-05-29T05:14:07Z drmeister: I declared a template class essentially:   template <> SymbolMap<Function_sp> : public stl::map<Symbol_sp,Function_sp> {...}   that's where I store a map of setf function symbols to functions.   I'm surprised it worked as long as it did.
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2014-05-29T05:36:56Z drmeister: Changed "SymbolMap" to "SymbolDict" recompile everything, switch two of the three remaining SymbolMaps to HashTableEq's. Only one SymbolDict instance is allowed - to store Symbols during bootstrapping before HashTables are available.
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2014-05-29T05:37:36Z drmeister: Change SymbolDict to use the Boehm gc_allocator so that it will be in uncollectable/root memory.
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2014-05-29T05:40:13Z drmeister: please-o-please-o-please compile the Common Lisp code
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2014-05-29T05:44:37Z drmeister: Well, it got a lot farther that time.   https://gist.github.com/drmeister/56874697d3c13f676eb5
2014-05-29T05:45:25Z drmeister: Now I'm just 9 files away from the end.
2014-05-29T05:46:36Z drmeister: For the past three days it's been crashing in BOOT.LSP (line 99)  Now it's FIXUP.LSP.    Ohh fixup.lsp - I spent so much time getting that one to work the first time around.
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2014-05-29T05:47:20Z drmeister: That's the one that swaps out key regular functions for generic versions.   It turns on CLOS.
2014-05-29T05:48:05Z drmeister: Guys - really, really - thank you all very much - this was very, very helpful.
2014-05-29T05:49:17Z drmeister: I apologize for dominating the channel for so long - but I was desperate and your feedback helped me track down a bug that was kicking my butt for several days.
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2014-05-29T06:58:06Z joe-w-bimedina: What would be the proper way to debug this.  I have a C function that wraps a C++ function. I verified the C function works. I wrapped it in a defcfun and after verifying it was wrapped correctly I ran it,  I'm getting arithmetic error FLOATING-POINT-INVALID-OPERATION signalled
2014-05-29T06:58:06Z joe-w-bimedina:    [Condition of type FLOATING-POINT-INVALID-OPERATION] error, How would I decipher this debug information to debug that https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/64b74fc09b79d6653ff4
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2014-05-29T06:59:46Z Bike: i really doubt anyone's going to be able to help just from that
2014-05-29T07:00:11Z Bike: paste source for hog-descriptor-example or something
2014-05-29T07:00:51Z joe-w-bimedina: ok
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2014-05-29T07:06:35Z joe-w-bimedina: Here is the example, https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/418c809359dc8c646be0 if you would like to see any of the defcfuns, just let me know, The code probably won't make sense without it, but I do have C++ version that uses some of the C functions I'm wrapping
2014-05-29T07:08:03Z joe-w-bimedina: any functions that you don't recognize, will have a tested defcfun written for it, except detect-multi-scale which is the function having the issue,  it is not tested of course
2014-05-29T07:09:10Z joe-w-bimedina: The function I'm wrapping is a virtual function, nut it works wrapped in c
2014-05-29T07:09:36Z joe-w-bimedina: opps .. but it works wrapped in c
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2014-05-29T08:16:09Z xvzf: I use ecl as it handles better the software I want to use. How can I change directory in it? I could not find it in the reference manual
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2014-05-29T08:26:53Z PuercoPop: xvzf: Check uiop/os:chdir (uiop comes with asdf.)
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2014-05-29T08:27:49Z xvzf: PuercoPop, how can I install asdf?
2014-05-29T08:28:05Z xvzf: am a newbie to the common lisp world
2014-05-29T08:28:56Z PuercoPop: I think it comes with ECL, let me check.
2014-05-29T08:29:01Z p_l: xvzf: it's usually bundled, but: a) Quicklisp includes it b) Quicklisp pushes updates of ASDF faster than your implementation
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2014-05-29T08:31:15Z PuercoPop: xvzf: it is just a (require 'asdf')
2014-05-29T08:31:52Z PuercoPop: (require 'asdf)  away in ecl
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2014-05-29T08:35:59Z leo2007: have anyone ever seen a case where using eval is avoidable in writing some macros?
2014-05-29T08:36:14Z xvzf: PuercoPop, am really a newbie, that require worked but how to proceed? I tried asdf:load-system :uiop but that did not work. load-system was found
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2014-05-29T08:38:06Z PuercoPop: xvzf: just require asdf an use uiop right away. Try this for example (require :asdf) / (uiop/os:getcwd)
2014-05-29T08:38:20Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-05-29T08:38:20Z minion: beach, memo from stassats: comments and remarks on http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-value-using-class.html is incorrectly stolen from the slot-boundp-using-class entry
2014-05-29T08:38:55Z beach: minion: memo for stassats: Thanks!  Fixed!
2014-05-29T08:38:55Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell stassats when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-05-29T08:40:04Z beach: leo2007: Using EVAL is almost always avoidable when writing macros.
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2014-05-29T08:41:18Z xvzf: PuercoPop, thanks not it works
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2014-05-29T08:43:32Z Fare: p_l, actually, quicklisp hasn't updated its asdf since november 2012, whereas sbcl last updated in july 2013.
2014-05-29T08:43:43Z p_l: Fare: oh?
2014-05-29T08:43:44Z p_l: ok
2014-05-29T08:43:54Z Fare: I'll be glad when quicklisp upgrades to asdf 3.
2014-05-29T08:44:07Z Fare: I hope that some time this year we can declare asdf 2 dead.
2014-05-29T08:44:09Z p0a: Hello I am using quicklisp. When I type (ql:quickload "usocket")
2014-05-29T08:44:18Z p0a: it says there's a gethostbyname error
2014-05-29T08:44:33Z Fare: I'm hoping that sbcl will upgrade to 3.1 some time this year, too.
2014-05-29T08:44:38Z p0a: 11004 (name is valid but the data was not found)
2014-05-29T08:44:53Z Fare: but no one in the sbcl team seems interested in an asdf upgrade.
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2014-05-29T08:45:13Z p0a: How can I write networking in common lisp? I want TCP sockets
2014-05-29T08:45:22Z Fare: that's ok, though — asdf was designed on the premise that if the implementation lags behind, you can always upgrade
2014-05-29T08:45:35Z p0a: I figured usocket would be what I need but quicklisp doesn't install it? :S
2014-05-29T08:45:36Z PuercoPop: Fare: ecl bundles asdf2 too, "2.33.10" on my machine
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2014-05-29T08:46:22Z leo2007: beach: yes in nearly all cases. but I am curious can it be a must for some macros? I searched the series package and find exactly one macro using eval.
2014-05-29T08:46:26Z Fare: it's just that the upgrade is somewhat awkward from asdf 2.26 or earlier, with more edge cases to consider, whereas from 2.27 and later it's usually seamless.
2014-05-29T08:46:36Z p0a: Hello? :S
2014-05-29T08:46:37Z Fare: (On some implementations, only 2.33 and later)
2014-05-29T08:46:54Z Fare: it would be nice if ECL upgraded to 3.1.2, too.
2014-05-29T08:47:17Z Fare: the only implementation I know that's always on top of asdf is ccl
2014-05-29T08:47:20Z Fare: thanks to rme
2014-05-29T08:47:48Z beach: leo2007: You asked for an example of when EVAL is avoidable.  Here is one from Paul Graham (from memory): (defmacro nil! (x) `(setf ,x nil))
2014-05-29T08:47:57Z beach: leo2007: See!  No EVAL.
2014-05-29T08:48:11Z Fare: see no eval, hear no eval.
2014-05-29T08:48:29Z beach: leo2007: Perhaps you meant "unavoidable"?
2014-05-29T08:48:42Z Fare: p0a: usocket can help with tcp sockets portably
2014-05-29T08:48:45Z Fare: and/or iolib
2014-05-29T08:49:05Z Fare: dunno about iolib on windows
2014-05-29T08:49:11Z p0a: any idea why quicklisp won't work ?
2014-05-29T08:49:16Z Fare: it will
2014-05-29T08:49:22Z Fare: I assure you, it will
2014-05-29T08:49:26Z p0a: It won't install usocket with (ql:quickload "usocket")
2014-05-29T08:49:45Z p0a: gethostbyname 11004 error
2014-05-29T08:50:10Z leo2007: beach: sorry for the typo
2014-05-29T08:50:18Z leo2007: yes, that is meant.
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2014-05-29T08:51:18Z PuercoPop: p0a: maybe you are behind a proxy?
2014-05-29T08:51:23Z p0a: nope
2014-05-29T08:51:41Z p0a: :verbose t doesn't help
2014-05-29T08:51:53Z p0a: should I try installing another package
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2014-05-29T08:52:44Z PuercoPop: you can always download usocket to local-projects and just load it with asdf.
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2014-05-29T08:53:23Z Fare: or with asdf 3.1, put it under ~/common-lisp/
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2014-05-29T08:53:29Z p0a: I don't use asdf
2014-05-29T08:53:36Z p0a: I guess I should?
2014-05-29T08:53:57Z PuercoPop: p0a: quicklisp uses asdf for you :)
2014-05-29T08:54:11Z p0a: so asdf is actually installed?
2014-05-29T08:54:18Z p0a: oh indeed
2014-05-29T08:54:20Z PuercoPop: yes
2014-05-29T08:54:23Z p0a: the namespace is loaded
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2014-05-29T08:54:36Z p0a: but I don't think it's asdf 3.1 since I don't have a ~/common-lisp dir
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2014-05-29T08:56:38Z p0a: I think it's a problem with usocket
2014-05-29T08:56:43Z p0a: cl-ppcre worked fine
2014-05-29T08:57:15Z PuercoPop: you can check with asdf:asdf-version. quicklisp creates ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ for you.
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2014-05-29T08:57:34Z p0a: it's 3.0.2
2014-05-29T08:58:00Z p0a: I'll use local-projects then
2014-05-29T08:58:02Z p0a: PuercoPop: thanks a lot!
2014-05-29T08:58:32Z PuercoPop: btw Fare how is your linear lisp going?
2014-05-29T08:58:41Z PuercoPop: np
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2014-05-29T09:03:23Z p0a: ok so I've put usocket-0.6.1 in ~/quicklisp/local-projects
2014-05-29T09:03:53Z p0a: ah
2014-05-29T09:03:54Z p0a: now the cmd works
2014-05-29T09:03:58Z p0a: quickload
2014-05-29T09:04:09Z p0a is satisfied :) off to write a server
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2014-05-29T09:07:43Z Fare: PuercoPop, not yet :-/
2014-05-29T09:07:50Z Fare: It's on the shelf right now :-(
2014-05-29T09:07:50Z PuercoPop: p0a: quicklisp first tries to load the local version before trying to fetch the system from the internet
2014-05-29T09:07:59Z Fare: PuercoPop, are you interested in helping with it?
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2014-05-29T09:08:01Z p0a: that's convenient
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2014-05-29T09:10:02Z p0a: I have a question. If I write a chat server with usocket, and the server uses SOCKET-SEND to send some data to some client, is it possible that this function "locks" the server from communicating with other clients?
2014-05-29T09:10:04Z p0a: or is it async
2014-05-29T09:11:21Z p0a: It's a noob question admittedly I haven't done much networking before
2014-05-29T09:12:10Z PuercoPop: I am, but still far from knowledgeable enough to write a VM that compiles to asm, I've started to implement an interpreter of Baker's VM as a starting point.
2014-05-29T09:13:24Z beach: Fare: Do you have a design document?
2014-05-29T09:14:43Z Fare: beach: nope. I have several mutually contradictory design ideas
2014-05-29T09:14:48Z Fare: that need to be experimented with
2014-05-29T09:15:29Z beach: Fare: So can you summarize in a sentence or two how it distinguishes itself from other Lisps, say CL?
2014-05-29T09:15:30Z Fare: at one level, something fully linear and very painful to use
2014-05-29T09:15:43Z Fare: at another level, something that has non-destructive visitors
2014-05-29T09:16:09Z Fare: at a higher-level, a mix of linear and persistent
2014-05-29T09:16:40Z Fare: main difference: the classic view is built on top of the linear view, and not the other way around
2014-05-29T09:18:01Z Fare: let's consider the 2nd level: linear, but with non-destructive visitors, explicit encapsulation / decapsulation of exponentials for persistent / classic / shared data structures on the heap.
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2014-05-29T09:19:23Z Fare: also at that level, I suppose you can automatically "merge" the variables on the many branches of an if
2014-05-29T09:19:56Z Fare: so and have some kind of setf
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2014-05-29T09:20:46Z Fare: so that if you (setf a 0) (when (foo) (setf a 1)) (bar a) it knows to do the right thing
2014-05-29T09:21:05Z PuercoPop: p0a: afaik it is reads that can block on networking. and usocket's read will block. The FAQ of usocket shows a way to work around it. If you want non-blockingIO you should look into cl-async: http://orthecreedence.github.io/cl-async/tcp
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2014-05-29T09:22:03Z p0a: PuercoPop: but there's nothing that my chat server has to do in the background while listening for messages
2014-05-29T09:22:08Z p0a: so I don't think that is necessary, correct?
2014-05-29T09:22:41Z Fare: I suppose the main thing is that every variable is linear: it can be used exactly once per branch of your function, and be explicitly consumed or made to escape.
2014-05-29T09:22:46Z Fare: exactly once
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2014-05-29T09:23:26Z beach: Fare: I see.  And the purpose is performance?
2014-05-29T09:23:33Z Fare: resource control
2014-05-29T09:23:59Z Fare: can be used for performance, for security, for real-time behavior, etc.
2014-05-29T09:24:09Z Fare: for semantic expressiveness, etc.
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2014-05-29T09:24:16Z beach: I understand.
2014-05-29T09:24:20Z Fare: did you read my lil article?
2014-05-29T09:24:29Z beach: About this?  No.
2014-05-29T09:24:32Z beach: Where is it?
2014-05-29T09:24:37Z Fare: the pure and stateful data structures were equivalent... if you expressed them in linear logic
2014-05-29T09:25:03Z Fare: https://github.com/fare/lil-ilc2012/
2014-05-29T09:25:43Z Fare: so hopefully, in my linear lisp, I can write the data structure once and only once, and it does the right thing, magically.
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2014-05-29T09:26:10Z Fare: then, based on linearity, a whole lot of inlining can be done that we know doesn't lead to explosion (since it's all linear)
2014-05-29T09:27:43Z beach: I'll read the article, but not right away.  I am busy refereeing some papers.
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2014-05-29T09:28:46Z Fare: of course
2014-05-29T09:29:06Z Fare: If you're interested in ASDF, I wrote a big paper about it this year at ELS 2014.
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2014-05-29T09:29:33Z Fare: the full version is a 26-page retrospective that covers a lot of ground since before ASDF 1.
2014-05-29T09:29:56Z Fare: and its last appendix has an interesting conclusion
2014-05-29T09:30:42Z beach: I know, I reviewed some of the early versions. :)
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2014-05-29T09:39:32Z p0a: thanks a lot everyone
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2014-05-29T10:24:01Z Fare: beach: whoa, my memory... I'm outsourcing it.
2014-05-29T10:24:08Z Fare: and yes, you had very detailed feedback... thanks!
2014-05-29T10:24:48Z Fare: beach: did you read the last appendix? I might not have written it then. But it's fun... especially the conclusion. Though I summarized that conclusion on my livejournal.
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2014-05-29T10:32:03Z beach: Fare: I can't remember now.  I guess I shall have to read the full paper again.
2014-05-29T10:32:37Z Fare: I improved it somewhat since your review — and thanks to it.
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2014-05-29T10:34:03Z beach: Good.  I will definitely read it again, then.
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2014-05-29T12:11:50Z owl-v-: does lisp have a concept like reference in Java?
2014-05-29T12:12:15Z owl-v-: Java /and/or JVM?
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2014-05-29T12:14:32Z Zhivago: owl: In that you pass object references by value, yes.
2014-05-29T12:14:41Z ggole: There's no particularly clear distinction between primitive and reference in Lisp, if that's what you mean
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2014-05-29T12:30:35Z stassats: anybody have oldish sbcl's? from last year or so?
2014-05-29T12:33:09Z owl-v-: stassats: try search in github?
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2014-05-29T12:57:08Z jdz: stassats: i have 1.1.8 accessible
2014-05-29T12:57:22Z stassats: too late, i'm already bisecting
2014-05-29T12:57:23Z stassats: almost done
2014-05-29T12:57:39Z jdz: bisect ftw!
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2014-05-29T13:25:46Z oleo: !
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2014-05-29T13:49:42Z puchacz: hi, is there a slime buffer that would show me all toplevel forms in another buffer? kind of navigation aid
2014-05-29T13:51:56Z oGMo: puchacz: i don't know of one, but isn't that something e.g. outline-mode does?
2014-05-29T13:51:59Z oGMo: (not sure)
2014-05-29T13:52:09Z puchacz: let me try
2014-05-29T13:52:27Z puchacz: err
2014-05-29T13:52:46Z puchacz: I switched from lisp mode to outline mode and I lost font-lock
2014-05-29T13:52:48Z puchacz: that's it
2014-05-29T13:52:56Z oGMo: outline-minor-mode
2014-05-29T13:53:36Z puchacz: ok, and then? can i expand / collapse things?
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2014-05-29T13:54:13Z puchacz: just found outline-toggle-children
2014-05-29T13:54:27Z oGMo: i'm seeing something about "use hideshow mode" and beyond that you can probably google heh
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2014-05-29T13:54:41Z puchacz: ok, thanks!
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2014-05-29T13:55:51Z oGMo: yeah, that does exactly, basically .. it's in melpa and a few simple effective commands
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2014-05-29T14:01:50Z puchacz: what is melpa pls?
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2014-05-29T14:04:27Z noncom: it is a global repo of emacs plugins
2014-05-29T14:04:46Z noncom: afaik
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2014-05-29T14:09:48Z puchacz: thx
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2014-05-29T15:29:47Z copec: What are some good example programs to study for someone who has just made it through ANSI Common Lisp and Practical Common Lisp?
2014-05-29T15:30:06Z pjb: copec: gsharp
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2014-05-29T15:30:34Z copec: ty
2014-05-29T15:30:47Z beach: pjb: That might be a bit too hard in the beginning.
2014-05-29T15:30:49Z stassats: that's a bad suggestion, it involves dealing with mcclim
2014-05-29T15:31:01Z beach: copec: I recommend the programs in PAIP.
2014-05-29T15:31:04Z pjb: beach: it's not a big program.  It's well structured, and there's some documentation/papers.
2014-05-29T15:31:40Z beach: Granted.
2014-05-29T15:31:49Z beach: Well, we can let copec choose, I suppose.
2014-05-29T15:31:53Z pjb: and inded, dealing with mcclim is an advantage: it gives some exposure to GUI programming in CL.
2014-05-29T15:32:03Z oleo: heh
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2014-05-29T15:32:34Z copec: PAIP is Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming?
2014-05-29T15:32:38Z beach: Yes.
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2014-05-29T15:33:03Z beach: Hmm, why does minion fail to parse cliki these days?
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2014-05-29T15:33:28Z pjb: cliki format changed a long time ago, and nobody updated minion.
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2014-05-29T15:33:37Z pjb: this is cliki 2.0 :-)
2014-05-29T15:33:46Z beach: OK, so who is in charge of minion?
2014-05-29T15:33:51Z stassats: nobody update minion because they incompatibly broke cliki
2014-05-29T15:33:53Z copec: thanks for the suggestions
2014-05-29T15:34:29Z beach: stassats: What do you suggest in order to fix the problem?
2014-05-29T15:34:57Z stassats: "give up", that's what i did, since nobody wants to fix cliki
2014-05-29T15:35:26Z beach: stassats: So, do you consider cliki broken now, and should be fixed?
2014-05-29T15:35:42Z stassats: yes
2014-05-29T15:36:02Z beach: OK, next question: who is in charge of cliki? :)
2014-05-29T15:37:26Z beach: The other alternative is to teach minion each individual term.  That's what I have been doing for the terms I care about, since I am in charge of neither cliki nor minion.
2014-05-29T15:37:56Z drmeister thinks minion should be made self-aware and put in charge of cliki
2014-05-29T15:38:31Z copec: I have another question, is concurrent programming really as bad in CL as the Clojure page would have you believe?
2014-05-29T15:38:50Z stassats: i delegated the responsibility for that thing: https://github.com/archimag/cliki2/issues/16
2014-05-29T15:38:50Z stassats: no reaction
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2014-05-29T15:39:24Z stassats: so, i delegate again, whoever provides a way to get raw source of articles, if it uses some other urls, i gladly change minion
2014-05-29T15:39:33Z stassats: but i will not parse the rendered HTML
2014-05-29T15:39:39Z beach: copec: Can you give a reference to that page, so that we can check what they say?
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2014-05-29T15:40:28Z copec: It is sprinkled throughout the docs, for example: http://clojure.org/rationale
2014-05-29T15:40:37Z beach: stassats: Yes, I see.
2014-05-29T15:42:12Z beach: copec: OK, let's take one thing: "No concurrency in specs"
2014-05-29T15:42:38Z beach: copec: As far as I know, clojure does not have an international standard, right?
2014-05-29T15:42:44Z pjb: What about "no specs at all"?
2014-05-29T15:43:35Z beach: copec: And if I am right, you should compare "clojure" not to "Common Lisp", but to "your favorite CL implementation".  Now, just pick one that defines concurrency.  They pretty much all do.
2014-05-29T15:43:41Z drmeister: Yes - I just got clasp running with the Boehm garbage collector - CLOS and all.   No more reference-counting for me.
2014-05-29T15:43:53Z beach: drmeister: Congratulations!
2014-05-29T15:44:02Z drmeister: beach: Thanks!
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2014-05-29T15:45:12Z drmeister: It feels a little peppier but not much.    Next step - Memory Pool System mostly copying GC.
2014-05-29T15:46:16Z beach: drmeister: A lot of work, it seems.
2014-05-29T15:46:30Z drmeister: And it crashes when I load the static analyzer - (sigh).
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2014-05-29T15:46:49Z beach: copec: Do you see my point?
2014-05-29T15:46:59Z copec: I do
2014-05-29T15:47:26Z beach: copec: Next item: about OO: "Concurrency disaster".  Sure, every advocate of functional programming is going to have negative opinions about stateful objects.
2014-05-29T15:47:51Z beach: copec: But that one is not directed specifically to CL, but to all stateful OO languages.
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2014-05-29T15:49:00Z pjb: In any case, CLOS objects are stateless. Slots are only reference to immutable values, or stateless objects with further references to immutable values.  It's only the references that are mutable, not the slots :-)
2014-05-29T15:50:38Z beach: Too hard for me to understand.
2014-05-29T15:50:48Z pjb: Clojure has mutable references.
2014-05-29T15:50:57Z pjb: It's not purely functional.
2014-05-29T15:51:30Z beach hasn't bothered learning clojure. 
2014-05-29T15:51:33Z pjb: So you can modelize setf or anything in CL in terms of Clojure, and therefore show that Clojure is nothing more than CL and a few libraries hidden under an ugly syntax.
2014-05-29T15:52:14Z drmeister: Are Clojure or Haskell really making use of concurrency - are there super-fast functional programs out there?
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2014-05-29T15:53:13Z stassats: i doubt that the throughput is very high
2014-05-29T15:55:22Z dkcl: Clojure doesn't even have concurrency except as an external library
2014-05-29T15:55:33Z Xach: clojure's ratio of pedantic weirdos to normal people is probably lower.
2014-05-29T15:55:36Z dkcl: They were going to integrate such library into the runtime, however
2014-05-29T15:56:01Z copec: Xach: hehehe
2014-05-29T15:56:04Z pjb: Xach: you're saying that as if "normal" was a good thing.
2014-05-29T15:56:11Z Xach: exhibit a
2014-05-29T15:56:22Z beach: Xach: lower than what?
2014-05-29T15:56:28Z Bike: CL's
2014-05-29T15:57:20Z beach: Awww.  I kind of like pedantic weirdos.
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2014-05-29T15:58:04Z Xach: Then CL is for you!
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2014-05-29T15:58:13Z beach: Indeed!
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2014-05-29T15:58:52Z pjb: Anyways, it's good to know we have one normal lisp programmer in the person of Xach.  We will be able to show him off! :-)
2014-05-29T15:59:14Z Xach: Who are you calling normal?
2014-05-29T15:59:19Z Xach: You take that back!
2014-05-29T15:59:27Z beach: heh!
2014-05-29T16:00:40Z stassats: is "perpendicular" an euphemism for "normal"?
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2014-05-29T16:01:40Z drewc: "NORML" is a good thing! <---- trying to be both pedantic and a weirdo and normal.
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2014-05-29T16:06:43Z drmeister appreciates pedantic CL weirdos
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2014-05-29T16:18:27Z copec: I _really_ like CL, enough to make me get into programming and less sysadmin work
2014-05-29T16:19:40Z copec: I was a math major though, and really didn't enjoy any other programming languages until CL
2014-05-29T16:20:42Z copec: It has the "expressfullness" in any arbitrary direction that I think is what I wanted
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2014-05-29T16:28:11Z drewc: Ours is not to reason Y
2014-05-29T16:29:49Z nyef: ... Capital Upsilon?
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2014-05-29T16:40:31Z therik: copec: is there anyone here who doesn't _really_ like CL?
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2014-05-29T16:40:52Z copec: I don't know
2014-05-29T16:41:06Z nyef: There are probably a few people who are looking at moving on to other interests for a while.
2014-05-29T16:41:43Z Xach: therik: Zhivago rarely has a kind word to say about CL.
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2014-05-29T16:45:31Z copec: I also really like long walks on the beach
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2014-05-29T16:46:55Z loke_: copec: I don't like walks. But give me a mountain bike and I'll stay out all day
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2014-05-29T16:47:33Z drmeister: nyef: I got clasp to run using the Boehm garbage collector.
2014-05-29T16:47:46Z nyef: drmeister: Congratulations. What did it turn out to be?
2014-05-29T16:48:13Z jasom: drmeister: sweet
2014-05-29T16:48:36Z drmeister: Last night the problem was two GC-invisible std::map containers that I hadn't converted to GC-aware HashTables
2014-05-29T16:48:49Z drmeister: Then I broke generic functions :-)
2014-05-29T16:48:55Z drmeister: Then I fixed them again.
2014-05-29T16:49:17Z Bike: so was the problem seriously that the gc was randomly replacing global functions
2014-05-29T16:49:24Z drmeister: So now everything compiles using Boehm and the compiled fasl file loads the entire CL system including CLOS.
2014-05-29T16:49:30Z drmeister: Bike: Yes.
2014-05-29T16:49:36Z Bike: cripes.
2014-05-29T16:49:42Z pjb: Happily nobody like mountain pjb to walk on the pjb. :-)
2014-05-29T16:49:58Z drmeister: My setf functions were stored in a std::map between symbols and functions.
2014-05-29T16:50:57Z nyef: So, now you might be able to get MPS working?
2014-05-29T16:51:06Z drmeister: My guess is Boehm garbage collects memory and then reuses the memory for identically sized objects.    So functions were being replaced with other functions.   It was crazy.
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2014-05-29T16:52:48Z drmeister: nyef: Yeah - I have to rewrite some stuff in the static analyzer to handle more classes.  Every GC managed object needs to have a unique identifier to be self describing - and it needs entries added in the obj_scan and obj_skip functions that fix pointers.
2014-05-29T16:53:18Z nyef: Sounds about right.
2014-05-29T16:53:51Z drmeister: This exercise incorporating Boehm brought to light a bunch of other C++ classes that I need to bring under the MPS umbrella.   Boehm is great as a training wheel GC.
2014-05-29T16:53:57Z nyef: One typical shortcut is to have a header that says "this object is $n$ boxed words long, and has no unboxed storage", which covers a LOT of cases.
2014-05-29T16:55:48Z drmeister: MPS uses a scan function that consists of a huge switch statement with a case for every self-describing object that contains pointers.  In each case statement you put code to fix every pointer that points to another GC-managed object.
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2014-05-29T16:57:05Z drmeister: Take a look at the sample Scheme scanner http://www.ravenbrook.com/project/mps/master/manual/html/topic/scanning.html  if you are so inclined.
2014-05-29T16:58:36Z drmeister: Here's what mine (now inadequate) looks like: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/39ad18e71bab2438cdb6
2014-05-29T16:59:24Z drmeister: Those are just the switch/case clauses - the scanner function lives in my source code and just includes this.
2014-05-29T17:00:13Z drmeister: What's nice about Boehm is I don't need any of this to get going.   I just say "this memory here may contain some pointers - you figure it out".
2014-05-29T17:00:46Z nyef: Ugh. I hope you're generating those automatically?
2014-05-29T17:00:51Z drmeister: With the downsides of memory fragmentation and more overhead scanning everything all the time.
2014-05-29T17:03:08Z drmeister: nyef: Yes - that's done by a static analyzer I wrote in Common Lisp - all the information is gathered by searching the C++ abstract syntax tree generated by the Clang C++ compiler.
2014-05-29T17:03:33Z nyef: Ah, right, the thing that you needed to get working in order to get MPS working?
2014-05-29T17:03:35Z drmeister: I use the Clang C++ interface to interrogate the C++ AST - no files are involved.
2014-05-29T17:03:41Z drmeister: Yup.
2014-05-29T17:03:46Z jasom: drmeister: do you have the source for that?  I was thinking it would be possible to generate something like foil only for C++ FFI with the clang AST
2014-05-29T17:04:23Z jasom: drmeister: and since all options for doing general C++ FFI currently suck, it would open up a lot of libraries to lisp
2014-05-29T17:04:28Z drmeister: jasom: Yes - it will be available - I think this will change how people build C++/other language interfaces.
2014-05-29T17:04:58Z drmeister: jasom: Yes.   Any C++ library.
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2014-05-29T17:05:49Z oGMo: drmeister: you call the C++ compiler to compile template instances on demand?
2014-05-29T17:06:08Z drmeister: It's easy to interface C++ libraries to clasp - or you can use clasp to interrogate C++ source code and build FFI interfaces for any Common Lisp - or any other language.
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2014-05-29T17:07:28Z drmeister: oGMo: You can but you have to generate text source code and have the Clang front end compile it - you can't build Clang AST's by yourself.   That's not my short-coming - it's due to the mind-numbing complexity of the C++ Abstract Syntax Tree.
2014-05-29T17:07:47Z oGMo: heh
2014-05-29T17:08:08Z drmeister: The C++ AST is not a tree at all - it's a directed graph - there are pointers all over the place.
2014-05-29T17:08:58Z jasom: drmeister: did you see Scott Meyer's talk at the D conference?
2014-05-29T17:08:59Z oGMo: well thta's basically what i'm doing with c2ffi and cxx2c
2014-05-29T17:09:03Z drmeister: The only code that knows how to generate a consistent C++ AST is the Clang front end.  The Clang/LLVM people acknowledge this.
2014-05-29T17:09:13Z oGMo: clang/llvm is a wonderful thing
2014-05-29T17:09:33Z drmeister: I did not see the talk yet.   Is this the "The last thing D needs"?
2014-05-29T17:10:03Z jasom: drmeister: yes.  It's hillarious.
2014-05-29T17:10:31Z drmeister: I'll be sure to check it out.
2014-05-29T17:11:29Z drmeister: jasom: What is "foil"?
2014-05-29T17:11:56Z oleo: can i use flet to bind a function to a symbol ?
2014-05-29T17:12:06Z jasom: drmeister: It's what the guy who made clojure did for java interop before clojure
2014-05-29T17:12:24Z jasom: drmeister: https://github.com/jasom/foil
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2014-05-29T17:12:30Z oleo: (let (add #'bla).... does not work ofc....
2014-05-29T17:12:50Z jasom: drmeister: https://github.com/jasom/foil/blob/master/docs/foil.md
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2014-05-29T17:14:17Z jasom: is it possible to search paste.lisp.org?
2014-05-29T17:14:48Z jasom: drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/140912  <-- there it is in action
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2014-05-29T17:16:27Z drmeister: So it sets up a client/server communication channel with a JVM and you call functions in CL and they activate functions in the JVM and send the results back?  Sounds slow.
2014-05-29T17:17:12Z jasom: drmeister: well you can't put a JVM in the same process as most lisps since they disagree over who should be handling signals
2014-05-29T17:17:16Z drmeister: With C++ libraries isn't it better to just call the C++ functions.   There is no C++ VM to communicate with.
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2014-05-29T17:17:25Z jasom: drmeister: yes it is.
2014-05-29T17:17:46Z jasom: drmeister: (though there is a C++ VM to some degree) The point was to have the same introspection that foil offers
2014-05-29T17:17:57Z jasom: drmeister: which is doable if you have a C++ AST for your library
2014-05-29T17:17:58Z nyef: jasom: Search paste.lisp.org? Sure. Google with a site:paste.lisp.org term.
2014-05-29T17:18:04Z jasom: nyef: that's what I ended up doing
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2014-05-29T17:18:17Z drmeister: Ok,  I'm not criticizing (other than the statement about slow) there's good reasons for doing this I'm sure.
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2014-05-29T17:20:04Z drmeister: Well, the Clang AST library gives you access to the Clang C++ AST and I've exposed it in my Common Lisp system so it's more fun and less "wanna gouge my eyeballs out" to work with it.
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2014-05-29T17:21:42Z drmeister: Check out my extremely popular Youtube video on the topic (it's a bit dated now). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h31pURzgYX8
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2014-05-29T17:23:26Z drmeister: Actually - don't it's a sophomoric effort - I'll post something better soon - hopefully source code.
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2014-05-29T17:24:40Z drmeister: jasom: What do you mean by "there is a C++ VM to some degree"?
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2014-05-29T17:25:20Z jasom: drmeister: mainly C++ runtime, but also the C++ standard defines a platonic machine that C++ operates on
2014-05-29T17:26:15Z drmeister: I never really thought of it that way - but yeah - I can see that.
2014-05-29T17:27:48Z jasom: With SBCL and the JVM they fight over who gets to control what in the process.  With C++ I would guess that's less of a problem
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2014-05-29T17:28:44Z nyef: I'd go so far as to say "two ``managed runtimes'' will fight over what they're managing".
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2014-05-29T17:30:37Z jasom: Rich hickey had no problems running the jvm in the same process as lisp works IIRC
2014-05-29T17:30:56Z jasom: but that might have been on windows
2014-05-29T17:31:16Z jasom: and used JNI to talk to FFI
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2014-05-29T17:43:00Z drmeister: What would two managed runtimes fight over?   Signals is the first that comes to mind.
2014-05-29T17:44:22Z nyef: And even windows has signals.
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2014-05-29T18:03:40Z jasom: drmeister: signals.  Threads
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2014-05-29T18:05:14Z jasom: running a C library that implements green threads that call back into lisp causes interesting things to happen on sbcl
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2014-05-29T18:33:38Z jasom: ecl on the other hand is perfectly happy with that
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2014-05-29T18:58:20Z prxq: jasom: green threads should not be a problem
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2014-05-29T19:03:45Z Sir_herrbatka: hi
2014-05-29T19:03:52Z Sir_herrbatka: what '& does?
2014-05-29T19:05:21Z jasom: Sir_herrbatka: that evaluates to a symbol named &
2014-05-29T19:05:48Z jasom: Sir_herrbatka: it's syntactic sugar for (quote &)
2014-05-29T19:05:49Z Sir_herrbatka: and there? http://wklej.org/id/1376849
2014-05-29T19:05:59Z Sir_herrbatka: jasom: i know, i know
2014-05-29T19:06:03Z Sir_herrbatka: but here…
2014-05-29T19:06:23Z Sir_herrbatka: 5 line
2014-05-29T19:06:23Z jasom: Sir_herrbatka: '&rest is the symbol named &rest, this looks like it's doing some sort of destructuring
2014-05-29T19:06:31Z Sir_herrbatka: ok
2014-05-29T19:06:56Z Sir_herrbatka: but there is no symbol &rest declared there…
2014-05-29T19:07:00Z jasom: Sir_herrbatka: though that's not common lisp code
2014-05-29T19:07:13Z Sir_herrbatka: no? it is from on lisp
2014-05-29T19:07:17Z jasom: oh it is?
2014-05-29T19:07:27Z jasom: ah I see atom? is a parameter
2014-05-29T19:07:36Z Sir_herrbatka: yeah
2014-05-29T19:07:38Z jasom: you are right
2014-05-29T19:07:46Z Sir_herrbatka: graham wrote it to be more confusing ;-)
2014-05-29T19:08:05Z jasom: Sir_herrbatka: I'm having trouble reading that unindented...
2014-05-29T19:08:08Z Sir_herrbatka: jasom: please, tell me where &rest comes from?
2014-05-29T19:08:18Z jasom: Sir_herrbatka: it's a symbol
2014-05-29T19:08:23Z jasom: it doesn't *come* from anywhere
2014-05-29T19:08:35Z Sir_herrbatka: but it is undeclared?
2014-05-29T19:08:40Z jasom: it's a symobl
2014-05-29T19:08:44Z jasom: you don't need to declare symbols
2014-05-29T19:08:52Z jasom: they aren't variables (though they can name variables)
2014-05-29T19:09:11Z jasom: Saying '&rest is undeclared is like saying 3 is undeclared in (+ 1 3)
2014-05-29T19:09:19Z Sir_herrbatka: i can't understand this code
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2014-05-29T19:09:35Z jasom: Sir_herrbatka: then on lisp is the wrong book for you; you need something more basic
2014-05-29T19:09:45Z Sir_herrbatka: i guess so
2014-05-29T19:09:52Z nicdev: Sir_herrbatka: having same problems as jasom to read that unindented
2014-05-29T19:10:26Z Sir_herrbatka: but i really want to understand that peace of code before moving back to the practical lisp
2014-05-29T19:10:41Z jasom: Sir_herrbatka: give me 5 minutes and I'll make a simpler example
2014-05-29T19:11:02Z Sir_herrbatka: jasom: i can give you even 10 minutes… ;-)
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2014-05-29T19:12:07Z jasom: Sir_herrbatka: I'm going to use cond instead of if; IIRC pg rarely uses cond even when it would be easier to read
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2014-05-29T19:14:11Z doomlord_1: is it impossible to retrofit 'funcallable objects'  (eg (varname index)  does array acess,  (varname :fieldname) does field acess) into a 'lisp2'  .... eg - if there is no function defined with 'varname' 's identifier, consider 'varname' as a funcallable object as in clojure
2014-05-29T19:14:48Z stassats: no, this is stupid
2014-05-29T19:14:52Z jasom: Sir_herrbatka: http://paste.lisp.org/+324P
2014-05-29T19:15:32Z doomlord_1: why is it stupid
2014-05-29T19:18:43Z jasom: okay, a quick browsing of PCL didn't find anything about using symbols as values; anybody know which chapter that's in?
2014-05-29T19:19:28Z Sir_herrbatka: jasom: excelent example
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2014-05-29T19:20:29Z Sir_herrbatka: but that's ok
2014-05-29T19:20:38Z Sir_herrbatka: i knew that
2014-05-29T19:20:39Z nyef: minion: graham crackers?
2014-05-29T19:20:39Z minion: graham crackers: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html
2014-05-29T19:20:50Z Sir_herrbatka: just still thinking to much in the c style
2014-05-29T19:20:55Z nyef: If you're going to be reading pg, also read that.
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2014-05-29T19:23:42Z Sir_herrbatka: nyef: i think that i will go back to the pcl since on lisp is a bit out of my league at this point
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2014-05-29T19:24:40Z drewc: On Lisp is not in my league, so out of it as well! :)
2014-05-29T19:25:39Z Sir_herrbatka: sometimes i think that graham intentionally wrote difficult book :P
2014-05-29T19:25:55Z oleo: no no
2014-05-29T19:26:13Z oleo: you can't read those books lika roman
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2014-05-29T19:26:33Z oleo: or literature say....
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2014-05-29T19:27:07Z oleo: you'll read a few chapter and get stuck....you'll switch to the other books or easier ones then return later ....
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2014-05-29T19:27:57Z jasom: oleo: Novel is the english translation of Roman
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2014-05-29T19:30:02Z jasom: Als ich Jung var, spreche ich ein bißchen Deutch.  Aber jetz habe ich fast alles vergessen.
2014-05-29T19:30:10Z Sir_herrbatka: well, banging my head against wall i was able to understood most of the code
2014-05-29T19:30:14Z oleo: ja sorry for the german idiom flash-back....
2014-05-29T19:30:15Z oleo: lol
2014-05-29T19:30:26Z jasom: s/var/war
2014-05-29T19:30:30Z Sir_herrbatka: it was painfull but the code did quite amazing things
2014-05-29T19:30:33Z stassats: don't mention the var
2014-05-29T19:30:41Z Sir_herrbatka: so i had motivation to go trough
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2014-05-29T19:45:32Z drewc: Sir_herrbatka: difficult? On Lisp? nay ... just that I am in the major league per se, and On Lisp, IMNSHO, is not even double A :)
2014-05-29T19:45:59Z drewc rhymed there ... time to take a break and write a poem/song!
2014-05-29T19:46:12Z jasom: Ah, the ever humble Mr. Crampsie
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2014-05-29T19:51:24Z drewc: .... it has been some 6 years or so since I read that book, so perhaps it has improved. tht sd, I prefr lng frms ovr shrt frms... nd vwls vn!
2014-05-29T19:51:39Z jasom: lol
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2014-05-29T19:52:34Z drewc goes on about Lisp-N, FUNCALL and other preferences he's developed over the years
2014-05-29T19:52:58Z jasom: 6 characters is enough for any identifier
2014-05-29T19:53:40Z jasom: I mean that allows for 2176782336 differnt identifiers even if you restrict yourself to alphanumeric.  Who needs more than that?
2014-05-29T19:53:44Z drewc: Lychee has 7! <--- me is trying to write a song but has a plate of food in front of him, so rhyming with it's contents
2014-05-29T19:53:57Z drewc: is has 6 btw
2014-05-29T19:54:37Z nyef: jasom: Length count + first three letters als- ten-- to wor-, tha- was the old FOR-- sta-----, aft-- all.
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2014-05-29T19:56:17Z jasom: I think you meant FOR---
2014-05-29T19:57:54Z nyef: ... No, if there was an extra letter it'd've been FOU---.
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2014-05-29T20:01:59Z jasom: oh, wrong old language starting with FOR
2014-05-29T20:02:51Z nyef: I'm trying to think of a six-letter one, and nothing comes to mind.
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2014-05-29T20:04:04Z heddwch: scheme
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2014-05-29T20:04:15Z jasom: FORTRAN
2014-05-29T20:04:18Z jasom: oh that's seven
2014-05-29T20:04:21Z jasom can't count
2014-05-29T20:04:23Z nyef: jasom: I can count to seven, yes.
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2014-05-29T20:04:30Z heddwch: jasom: I almost did the same heh
2014-05-29T20:04:44Z jasom: one of these days I'll learn to count
2014-05-29T20:04:50Z nyef: I can even count past ten without taking my shoes off.
2014-05-29T20:05:05Z heddwch: We have computers/smartphones for counting
2014-05-29T20:05:09Z jasom: I've always had problems counting
2014-05-29T20:05:21Z nyef: (And no comments from the peanut gallery about my habits of going around barefoot or wearing Vibrams, thank you.)
2014-05-29T20:05:23Z jasom: other arithmetic I do fine, but counting is an issue
2014-05-29T20:05:40Z heddwch: nyef: Are 'me too's allowed?
2014-05-29T20:07:52Z oleo: haha jasom++
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2014-05-29T20:08:02Z oleo: the same here....
2014-05-29T20:08:36Z oleo: that's why i switch focus to combinatorics from time to time....
2014-05-29T20:08:46Z heddwch: <My calculus professor upon failing basic addition> "I'm a mathematician, not a calculator."
2014-05-29T20:09:39Z nyef: "Damnit, Jim, I'm a Doctor, not a Mathematician."
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2014-05-29T20:13:37Z Sir_herrbatka: heddwch: valid point
2014-05-29T20:13:49Z Sir_herrbatka: next time i will say
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2014-05-29T20:13:59Z Sir_herrbatka: "I'm programmer, not a compiler!"
2014-05-29T20:14:03Z heddwch: :D
2014-05-29T20:15:15Z Sir_herrbatka: on lisp is awesome book
2014-05-29T20:15:24Z Sir_herrbatka: too bad i have problems understanding it
2014-05-29T20:16:10Z jasom: Sir_herrbatka: I would say that if you can't understand it, you don't know if it's awesome yet
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2014-05-29T20:16:30Z jasom: I have often thought something was awesome only to be disappointed once I understood it
2014-05-29T20:16:57Z Sir_herrbatka: jasom: there are some very interesting examples there
2014-05-29T20:17:17Z Sir_herrbatka: at least i think so
2014-05-29T20:17:38Z Sir_herrbatka: Probably not that interesting for lisp jedi here
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2014-05-29T20:18:26Z jasom: Sir_herrbatka: I agree that there is interesting material in On Lisp
2014-05-29T20:18:35Z Sir_herrbatka: for instance utility function mnemonize was briliant
2014-05-29T20:18:40Z jasom: I just suppose that that is insufficient for me to call something "awesome"
2014-05-29T20:19:34Z Sir_herrbatka: you are not jobs enough
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2014-05-29T20:21:02Z Sir_herrbatka: well, i hope that i can learn lisp a bit faster
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2014-05-29T20:21:14Z Sir_herrbatka: since i really want to understand it
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2014-05-29T20:26:06Z nicdev: Sir_herrbatka: i think if you have read PCL, I would also take a look at PAIP. It is a much better read than On Lisp in my opinion
2014-05-29T20:26:31Z Sir_herrbatka: nicdev: i'm in the middle of the pcl
2014-05-29T20:26:47Z Sir_herrbatka: was power thirsty so started on lisp ;-)
2014-05-29T20:27:13Z nicdev: Sir_herrbatka: spend some time implementing the Practicals. You will learn a bunch there
2014-05-29T20:27:27Z Sir_herrbatka: i will
2014-05-29T20:27:42Z Sir_herrbatka: it seems that i will have more free time soon
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2014-05-29T20:37:41Z effy: i dont understand why map take a return type as it's first argument in common lisp, can someone make me a little less dumb ? :)
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2014-05-29T20:38:12Z jdz: effy: were you looking at mapcar?
2014-05-29T20:38:19Z oleo: no at map
2014-05-29T20:38:19Z jdz: effy: *for
2014-05-29T20:38:29Z oleo: (map 'list (blah......
2014-05-29T20:38:39Z oleo: the return type is the first argument
2014-05-29T20:38:50Z oleo: you want the stuff it returns to be lists in that case
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2014-05-29T20:39:01Z heddwch: effy: So that you can specify what its return type is.
2014-05-29T20:39:05Z oleo: yes
2014-05-29T20:40:38Z effy: i understood how to use it, but i dont get the point of the argument, what am i missing, in every other languages i know, python ruby scala clojure ... map only take a function and a collection, what possibility does it add to have the choice to specfy #'list, what else could i give it
2014-05-29T20:41:40Z Xach: effy: any appropriate sequence type
2014-05-29T20:42:12Z effy: Xach: would you provide an example of use case other than list to help me grok it ? :)
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2014-05-29T20:42:28Z Xach: (map 'list 'code-char '(104 101 108 108 111)) is very different from (map 'string 'code-char '(104 101 108 108 111))
2014-05-29T20:43:30Z effy: is the first function given to map acting kind of like a "reducer" ?
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2014-05-29T20:43:53Z nyef: It's not a function, it's one of a small number of sequence type names.
2014-05-29T20:44:51Z Xach: small?
2014-05-29T20:45:35Z heddwch: effy: The thing is, map can take multiple types of sequences as inputs, thus it can't directly infer what you want as a result if you pass a list and a string as its inputs, for example. There are other functions available for you to be more specific with.
2014-05-29T20:45:50Z nyef: Ah, my bad. Any sequence type specifier.
2014-05-29T20:46:04Z nyef: Though I imagine that bad things would happen with (vector nil).
2014-05-29T20:46:22Z Xach: keep it PG
2014-05-29T20:46:37Z heddwch: haha
2014-05-29T20:46:49Z nyef: What? It's a valid string subtype!
2014-05-29T20:47:12Z effy: heddwch: is it something people do clever things with, or is it just #'list 99% of the time ?
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2014-05-29T20:47:36Z Xach: effy: it is a variety of things all the time.
2014-05-29T20:47:40Z heddwch: effy: It's something people do appropriate things with ;) Lists are more often inappropriate than they are appropriate.
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2014-05-29T20:48:09Z Xach uses (map nil ...) a lot
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2014-05-29T20:48:46Z heddwch: haha Wouldn't a do-thing loop be more efficient in that case?
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2014-05-29T20:49:05Z effy: Xach: do you use map as a foreach ?
2014-05-29T20:49:23Z Xach: I use it to call a function for each element in a sequence without returning anything.
2014-05-29T20:49:40Z Xach: I learned this past year that some (many?) people use mapc for that.
2014-05-29T20:49:49Z Xach: More about the side-effect than the return value.
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2014-05-29T20:50:24Z Xach: heddwch: there isn't a general do-sequence thing.
2014-05-29T20:50:36Z heddwch: True, true
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2014-05-29T20:51:10Z axion: (map nil #'function "some-string") ; i do this a bit to apply function to each character of a string. you normally wouldn't care about the return being a list or not, hence nil
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2014-05-29T20:53:04Z Krystof: why do you call a function on each character in a string and not care about the result?
2014-05-29T20:53:37Z axion: as Xach said, it's more about the side-effect
2014-05-29T20:54:00Z nyef: letter-frequency analysis?
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2014-05-29T21:11:44Z enn: Hello ... is there a simple(ish) way, in SBCL, to create a thread-local (but global within the thread) variable binding?
2014-05-29T21:12:13Z drewc: Xach: I, within the last 4 years or so, started using (map nil ...) a lot as well. I used to use (loop .... :do), but have come to prefer LAMBDA over LOOP, and "..." is usually (lambda (foo ...) ...).
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2014-05-29T21:14:05Z drewc: enn: LET around the thread creation. See the SBCL manual :
2014-05-29T21:14:11Z axion: enn: :initial-bindings with bt:make-thread
2014-05-29T21:14:21Z drewc: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Special-Variables
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2014-05-29T21:14:59Z enn: yeah, unfortunately I am not really sure I can catch all the places where threads might be created, I was hoping it could be done after thread creation time. But, if not, maybe I should figure out a different approach.
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2014-05-29T21:20:54Z drewc: enn: likely another approach is the best bet. I generally use a mutex, with hash of thread-local environments or something similar, and try to avoid SPECIALs.
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2014-05-29T21:21:58Z joe-w-bimedina: I used to be able to do this but now its not working, I am wrapping C code in CFFI, and I used to be able to put a cout in the C code so when I ran the defcfun, I could print the output of the parameters C was getting in *inferior-lisp* to debug.  I'm on Ubuntu Trusty Tahr, Emacs, SLIME,SBCL.  Here is my attempt in C that used to work.  White_Flame, if your on here, you taught me this. Any help on it would be much, much appreciated
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2014-05-29T21:38:39Z Vivitron: effy: note that mapcar exists for the common case of mapping lists to a list
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2014-05-29T21:40:22Z effy: Vivitron: i'm not sure i'm ready for mapcar yet, in my mind map + car sound like a flat_map (aka mapping over a function and then applying car on each element)
2014-05-29T21:41:59Z effy: i'm curious where does the name come from :)
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2014-05-29T21:43:21Z heddwch: effy: Applying car on each element is how you get an element from a list
2014-05-29T21:43:34Z Vivitron: Car and cdr I believe; there's a variant that calls the function on successive cdr's instead of successive cars
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2014-05-29T21:44:17Z effy: the car in mapcar means you are "folding" from the left ?
2014-05-29T21:44:25Z stassats: no!
2014-05-29T21:44:42Z Vivitron: It's (map 'list ...)
2014-05-29T21:44:50Z stassats: are you trying to guess your way out?
2014-05-29T21:44:52Z Vivitron: Except only takes lists
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2014-05-29T21:45:09Z stassats: map doesn't even fold
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2014-05-29T21:45:36Z nyef: There are six "list" mapping functions, destructive and non-destructive variants for each of three basic types, IIRC.
2014-05-29T21:45:37Z effy: stassats: i'm trying to guess the choice of the name why map"car" not maplist or mapeach or whatever else :)
2014-05-29T21:45:41Z nyef: And then MAP itself.
2014-05-29T21:45:46Z nyef: clhs maplist
2014-05-29T21:45:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm
2014-05-29T21:46:04Z stassats: effy: you are surely familiar with the function CAR
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2014-05-29T21:46:22Z effy: yes of course
2014-05-29T21:47:41Z nyef: Ah, my bad, the difference between the two sets is that one set takes the CAR and the other set takes each cons in the list itself.
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2014-05-29T21:51:35Z Vivitron: mapcon and mapl are less common than nreconc:)
2014-05-29T21:52:04Z nyef: Most of the time I'd use LOOP instead anyway.
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2014-05-29T22:50:09Z drewc: I recently used MAPCAR with two lists, so (lambda (a b) ...). The fact that those MAP*'s can take multiples is overlooked IMO.
2014-05-29T22:51:11Z Xach: I use two lists fairly often. Not often more than two though.
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2014-05-29T22:53:00Z drewc: `(:and ,@(mapcar (lambda (name value)`(:= (:dot ,table-name ,name) ,value)) keys primary-keys)) <--- FWIW . I do not do that often enough, but again, only recently started preferring those forms.
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2014-05-29T22:57:57Z drewc: Xach: I do not think I have ever used 3 TBH. But I am looking for the hopportunity.
2014-05-29T22:59:19Z stassats: "i'll tell you what i'd do man: two lists at the same time, man"
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2014-05-29T23:04:19Z jasom: drewc: I use it most often to make lists of n-ples out of n lists
2014-05-29T23:04:28Z jasom: (mapcar #'list list1 list2 list3 ...)
2014-05-29T23:05:05Z stassats: and n is less than 50?
2014-05-29T23:05:32Z drewc: stassats:  (mapcar (lambda (decent flick) ...) '(office) '(#\Space)) !
2014-05-29T23:05:47Z jasom: stassats: well yeah
2014-05-29T23:06:22Z jasom: stassats: but if I need a 50 element tuple I'm doing something wrong...
2014-05-29T23:06:42Z jasom: stassats: I don't think I've ever used it with more than 3
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2014-05-29T23:25:40Z jasom: I just discovered I wrote something to do the exact same thing as something I wrote 3 years ago
2014-05-29T23:27:00Z axion: i did that a couple weeks ago. turns out the old code was ugly and laughable as expected
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2014-05-29T23:30:05Z jasom: In this the old code is fairly good, but it uses flexi-streams which I have since discovered to be slow
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2014-05-29T23:43:50Z drmeister: git question (a bit off topic - but it's a CL repository) - if I "git add XXX" am I adding XXX to the index?
2014-05-29T23:44:06Z drmeister: Is that what it's called?
2014-05-29T23:45:10Z joshe: yes
2014-05-29T23:45:29Z Denommus: it is also often called the staging area
2014-05-29T23:46:46Z drmeister: I'm familiar with the "staging area"   - yesterday people were calling it the "index" and I wasn't sure if that was something different or the same as the "staging area".
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2014-05-29T23:57:40Z drmeister: Thanks - that is helpful.
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2014-05-30T00:08:25Z zwer: (mapcar '+ '(1 2) '(3 4) '(5 6)) this works. how would I make it work with (let ((list '((1 2) (3 4) (5 6) ..)) ?  I have tried to make something with apply but without success
2014-05-30T00:09:20Z heddwch: Could use destructuring-bind
2014-05-30T00:09:59Z heddwch: Not saying that's a good solution, just something off the top of my head.
2014-05-30T00:10:01Z zwer: what if the number of lists is arbitrary?
2014-05-30T00:10:09Z heddwch: mm
2014-05-30T00:11:30Z heddwch: Looks like apply should work.
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2014-05-30T00:11:44Z heddwch: (apply #'mapcar #'+ list-of-lists)
2014-05-30T00:13:06Z zwer: ah
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2014-05-30T00:13:20Z zwer: #'+ is first argument, list-of-lists are the remaining arguments
2014-05-30T00:13:29Z heddwch: yea :)
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2014-05-30T00:14:04Z zwer: nice, thanks
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2014-05-30T00:16:27Z heddwch: no problem!
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2014-05-30T00:19:52Z joe-w-bimedina: I was hoping someone could look at this cond statement and tell me if there is a faster way to write it https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/42cef3a3aae1d955c77c ...brb in 10 min
2014-05-30T00:20:31Z heddwch: joe-w-bimedina: python
2014-05-30T00:22:20Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: you probably want to use apply to make the nested call
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2014-05-30T00:23:26Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: also you are dispatching completely on the type of (fourth args) so you could use an etypecase instead
2014-05-30T00:23:42Z jasom: which will also have the advantage of signalling an error if an unexpected type is passed
2014-05-30T00:23:58Z jasom: heddwch: he's probably already using python
2014-05-30T00:24:41Z jasom: since sbcl seems to be the most popular lisp implementation in this channel
2014-05-30T00:25:35Z heddwch: jasom: heh ;)
2014-05-30T00:25:47Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: there is a faster way to write it!  Use a Das Keyboard !
2014-05-30T00:25:52Z heddwch: :D
2014-05-30T00:26:13Z pjb: http://www.daskeyboard.com/typefaster/
2014-05-30T00:26:39Z Zag: I use quicklisp, and do I have to do a ql:quickload everytime I want to load a library? Is there a way to skip the long compile time?
2014-05-30T00:27:52Z joe-w-bimedina: Funny...Das keyboard, I had to look it up, you got me:)
2014-05-30T00:28:07Z Bike: Zag: it won't recompile
2014-05-30T00:28:07Z heddwch: Zag: It should only compile on the first load
2014-05-30T00:28:10Z Bike: or redownload, for that matter
2014-05-30T00:28:24Z Zag: Ok, thanks then. I was just wondering why it's so long.
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2014-05-30T00:30:07Z jasom: Zag: you should probably be creating your own ASDF system for your project; if you do that then you can put the dependencies in the .asd file directly.  You shouldn't ever be quickloading a library except when prototyping something.
2014-05-30T00:30:12Z pjb: ql:quickload only compiles when the binaries are older than the sources.  So if you don't touch the sources, it won't recompie.
2014-05-30T00:30:14Z pjb: le
2014-05-30T00:30:56Z pjb: But then, it is per implementation.version.  So if you switch or update your CL implementation, it will have to recompile a new version of the binaries.
2014-05-30T00:31:21Z Zag: I see, thanks
2014-05-30T00:31:42Z joe-w-bimedina: :jasom so using apply for each function like  (apply#'%mat-value args) on each function call?. Do you know that to give a pretty substantial increase usually and is it just because I'd be getting rid of the first, second args etc
2014-05-30T00:33:03Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: it makes the code cleaner, and it will catch incorrect arity (assuming e.g. %mat-value has fixed arity)
2014-05-30T00:33:14Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: and "pretty substantial increase" to what?
2014-05-30T00:33:31Z joe-w-bimedina: to speed
2014-05-30T00:34:30Z jasom: oh by "faster way to write it" I thought you literally meant faster way to write it.
2014-05-30T00:34:41Z Bike: any speed improvement would be trivial
2014-05-30T00:34:49Z joe-w-bimedina: what do you mean by aruty in this context
2014-05-30T00:34:52Z joe-w-bimedina: arity
2014-05-30T00:35:00Z Bike: arity is how many arguments it takes.
2014-05-30T00:35:00Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: how many arguments a function takes
2014-05-30T00:35:16Z Bike: (lambda (foo) ...) has fixed arity of 1, (lambda (&rest foo) ...) isn't fixed
2014-05-30T00:35:37Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: Step 1 to making any program run faster: Use a profiler
2014-05-30T00:35:49Z jasom: step 2 to making any program run faster: use a profiler
2014-05-30T00:35:53Z joe-w-bimedina: yea it is fixed, all of them are,  I use time macro on ecerything
2014-05-30T00:36:13Z joe-w-bimedina: what I posted is the fastest I thought of so far
2014-05-30T00:36:15Z Bike: time isn't a profiler. it just tells you your code is slow, not what parts are slowest.
2014-05-30T00:36:20Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: the time macro isn't a profiler.  sb-sprof is
2014-05-30T00:36:34Z Bike: i really doubt this function is a bottleneck
2014-05-30T00:36:40Z joe-w-bimedina: what benefit does a profiler give
2014-05-30T00:36:50Z Bike: It will tell you what parts of your code need improvement.
2014-05-30T00:36:59Z jasom: also putting (time) around everything will make each thing you wrap it with take longer, thus skewing your results
2014-05-30T00:37:36Z jasom: e.g. (defun function-that-does-nothing () (time nil)) <-- that takes *way* longer than if it weren't timed
2014-05-30T00:37:50Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: http://paste.lisp.org/+324Q
2014-05-30T00:38:22Z jasom: so if you have a function that calls function-that-does-nothing in a loop, the TIME code will make the parent function look way worse than it is
2014-05-30T00:38:56Z pjb: Since the parameters seem to be bound to consistent information, you can name them.  &rest would be required if you had more random parsing to do on them.
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2014-05-30T00:41:25Z joe-w-bimedina: Thanks pjb, I'll check that out,  Thanks for everybodies input on this:)
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2014-05-30T00:55:57Z joe-w-bimedina: pjb: I had a question about the pointer in the code you posted, I had to substitute SB-SYS:SYSTEM-AREA-POINTER, is there an implementation way to do that, I could use pointerp, but how would I fit it into the code you posted
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2014-05-30T01:01:37Z jasom: Is there a way to get argv[0] with cl-launch (or uiop)
2014-05-30T01:02:44Z jasom: aha raw-command-line-arguments
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2014-05-30T01:04:38Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: if sbcl doesn't exports a type named POINTER and POINTERP is the predicate for the type named SB-SYS:SYSTEM-AREA-POINTER, then you could (deftype pointer () 'SB-SYS:SYSTEM-AREA-POINTER)
2014-05-30T01:05:00Z pjb: or your could use your programming brains, and translate the ETYPEDEF into a COND.
2014-05-30T01:05:21Z pjb: ETYPECASE into a COND, I mean.
2014-05-30T01:06:03Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: a better alternative would be to use CFFI instead of implementation specific FFI stuff.
2014-05-30T01:06:32Z joe-w-bimedina: ok was trying to make it work.. I am using CFFI, I did mean cffi::pointerp
2014-05-30T01:07:33Z pjb: pointerp is an exported symbol, why do you use :: instead of : ?
2014-05-30T01:08:22Z pjb: From the documentation, cffi seems to be lacking a deftype pointer.
2014-05-30T01:09:03Z Bike: good thing, given that "pointer" isn't a complete C type
2014-05-30T01:09:10Z pjb: ie. you should define it.
2014-05-30T01:09:15Z pjb: Bike: this is #lisp.
2014-05-30T01:09:25Z Bike: and in #lisp, cffi is being used
2014-05-30T01:09:43Z pjb: The point is that once you have a predicate, you have a type.
2014-05-30T01:10:08Z pjb: So it would be convenient to export both, because (deftype pointer () '(satisfies pointerp)) is not efficient.
2014-05-30T01:10:18Z pjb: The more so for a portability library.
2014-05-30T01:10:37Z Bike: yeah i see
2014-05-30T01:10:44Z Bike: "In Allegro CL, foreign pointers are integers thus in this implementation pointerp will return true for any ordinary integer. " that's something
2014-05-30T01:10:53Z pjb: This is not a problem.
2014-05-30T01:11:08Z Bike: i just think it's a bit amusing
2014-05-30T01:11:13Z pjb: #+allegro (deftype pointer () '(integer 0 #.(expt 2 +word-size+)))
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2014-05-30T01:11:58Z Bike: cffi:pointerp is apparently defined as an implementation wrapper, e.g. sb-sys:system-area-pointer-p, so you'd have to find the types for each implementation
2014-05-30T01:12:39Z Bike: on the other hand, the clisp implementation is a call to typep
2014-05-30T01:13:48Z pjb: It may be a problem when you write typecase however, since the compiler might warn you about duplicate types.  But this can be solved, see for example: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:float-typecase
2014-05-30T01:14:16Z pjb: Bike: that's what I'm saying: it's the job of the portability library to do that!
2014-05-30T01:14:30Z Bike: i'm not disagreeing, i'm just looking around.
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2014-05-30T01:14:45Z pjb: Have a look at float-typecase ;-)
2014-05-30T01:15:40Z Bike: undocumented? tragic.
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2014-05-30T01:29:50Z pjb: Bike: What the fuck do you talk about?
2014-05-30T01:29:52Z pjb: cl-user> (documentation 'com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:float-typecase 'function)
2014-05-30T01:29:52Z pjb: "
2014-05-30T01:29:52Z pjb: EXPRESSION: an expression evaluate to some value.
2014-05-30T01:29:53Z pjb:  
2014-05-30T01:29:57Z pjb: CLAUSES:    typecase clauses where the type is one of the standard
2014-05-30T01:30:00Z pjb:             FLOAT direct subtypes, ie. one of (SHORT-FLOAT
2014-05-30T01:30:03Z pjb:             SINGLE-FLOAT DOUBLE-FLOAT LONG-FLOAT).
2014-05-30T01:30:06Z pjb:  
2014-05-30T01:30:09Z pjb: NOTE:      Implementations may conflate the various subtypes of FLOAT.
2014-05-30T01:30:13Z pjb:            When two float types are conflated, some implementation
2014-05-30T01:30:16Z pjb:            will signal a warning on any typecase that have them in
2014-05-30T01:30:19Z pjb:            separate clauses.  Since they're the same type, we can as
2014-05-30T01:30:20Z Bike: it's not on http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/doc/com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility.html, is all.
2014-05-30T01:30:22Z pjb:            well remove the duplicate clauses.
2014-05-30T01:30:23Z Bike: you can stop.
2014-05-30T01:30:23Z pjb:  
2014-05-30T01:30:27Z pjb: SEE:       CLHS Type SHORT-FLOAT, SINGLE-FLOAT, DOUBLE-FLOAT, LONG-FLOAT
2014-05-30T01:30:30Z pjb:  
2014-05-30T01:30:33Z pjb: DO:        Expands to a TYPECASE where only the clauses with unique
2014-05-30T01:30:36Z pjb:            float types are present.
2014-05-30T01:30:39Z pjb: "
2014-05-30T01:31:13Z pjb: Well, I don't generate the documentation everytime I push a commit…
2014-05-30T01:31:41Z pjb: Who uses web documentation anyways, we're in the REPL.
2014-05-30T01:32:41Z pjb: That's a problem with google too.  When you ask it a question with "fuck" or "fucking" it doesn't return the same results, or with any urgency as when you elide those keywords…
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2014-05-30T05:07:42Z orthecreedence: hey everyone
2014-05-30T05:08:11Z orthecreedence: i'm dealing with some weird macrolet stuff and came across this syntax:
2014-05-30T05:08:32Z orthecreedence: (let* ((x 0) (#1=#:genx x)) #1#)
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2014-05-30T05:08:54Z orthecreedence: it returns 0, but i have no idea what it means and its impossible to look up #1# on google
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2014-05-30T05:08:59Z Bike: clhs ##
2014-05-30T05:08:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhp.htm
2014-05-30T05:09:03Z Bike: ^that
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2014-05-30T05:09:58Z Bike: since #:genx is an uninterned symbol, if the code was just (let* ((x 0) (#:genx x)) #:genx) the two symbols might not be eq, so the code wouldn't work
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2014-05-30T05:11:37Z orthecreedence: hmm, i kind of get it. i'll play around a bit more and see if it starts to make sense
2014-05-30T05:11:37Z orthecreedence: thank you
2014-05-30T05:15:14Z orthecreedence: ah ok i get it now. what's the purpose of this? like in what circumstances would i normally use #1#?
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2014-05-30T05:15:33Z Bike: usually if you're writing uninterned symbols in source for some reason (or printing source with uninterned symbols)
2014-05-30T05:15:42Z Bike: also circular structures
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2014-05-30T05:21:05Z didi: Is there an ASDF function which lists the available systems to load?
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2014-05-30T13:11:52Z felideon: so does anyone know where to find gavino's old lisp blog?
2014-05-30T13:11:59Z felideon: (albeit resorting to Google cache)
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2014-05-30T13:14:34Z Xach: I didn't know he had a Lisp blog.
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2014-05-30T13:16:18Z Xach: http://bootiack.livejournal.com/ http://technoninja.blogspot.com/ and http://endthefed.livejournal.com/ are the ones with which I'm familiar. Occasional lisp madness mixed in with the other madness.
2014-05-30T13:17:54Z felideon: oh wait, maybe i'm thinking of the wrong guy
2014-05-30T13:18:02Z felideon: or gal
2014-05-30T13:18:13Z felideon: brucemo?
2014-05-30T13:18:29Z Xach: Brucio?
2014-05-30T13:18:32Z felideon: yes!
2014-05-30T13:18:36Z Xach: It's only available via cache
2014-05-30T13:18:44Z Xach: archive.org has some of it
2014-05-30T13:19:12Z Xach: e.g. https://web.archive.org/web/20070712062323/http://brucio.blogspot.com/
2014-05-30T13:19:20Z felideon: right, gotcha. thanks.
2014-05-30T13:19:33Z felideon: valuable lessons can be learner here
2014-05-30T13:19:39Z felideon: learned*
2014-05-30T13:19:53Z Xach: yes, valuable
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2014-05-30T13:24:00Z Xach: I don't know if it's good or bad that it still makes me laugh a lot.
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2014-05-30T13:25:22Z felideon: Xach: :D
2014-05-30T13:25:39Z splittist: It's like weaving spaghetti
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2014-05-30T13:47:42Z pjb: I'm still thinking (equal brucio xach) :-)
2014-05-30T13:47:57Z pjb: I mean, good job Xach!
2014-05-30T13:48:55Z Xach: Brucio ist tot
2014-05-30T13:49:09Z pjb: Good news, also.
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2014-05-30T13:49:34Z Odin-: Xach: Wir haben ihn getötet?
2014-05-30T13:49:54Z Xach: Retired to Bielefeld
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2014-05-30T15:14:25Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2014-05-30T15:15:30Z beach: heddwch: Thanks for pointing me to #osdev.  Looks interesting.  From the logs I see that there are even a few LispOS projects going on.
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2014-05-30T15:16:07Z beach: heddwch: ... and there seems to be a lot less hostility towards Lisp that I had imagined/feared.
2014-05-30T15:17:49Z stassats: most hostility towards lisp is in #lisp
2014-05-30T15:18:29Z beach: There is some truth to that.
2014-05-30T15:18:32Z heddwch: beach: np :) Yea, there's the usual outliers that have strong opinions, but overall pretty open
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2014-05-30T16:09:29Z jasom: I usually run into confusion rather than hostility
2014-05-30T16:09:55Z jasom: "Lisp?  I didn't know people still used that."
2014-05-30T16:10:22Z jasom: Though as I get older more and more people just assume that when I was young everyone used lisp and I'm just a luddite
2014-05-30T16:16:48Z jasom: Brucio is a troll, right?
2014-05-30T16:17:01Z stassats: you never know these days
2014-05-30T16:17:47Z jasom: Point #3 of this https://web.archive.org/web/20070712062343/http://brucio.blogspot.com/2007/03/why-lisp.html#c8643715330603148739 convinces me of it.
2014-05-30T16:18:05Z jasom: #10 too
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2014-05-30T16:19:38Z heddwch: jasom: There's still the occasional hostility, but it's usually just a stupid paren joke from someone not realizing lisp is still alive, so thinking it's the same as making fun of cobol or something (although that's still alive, too, just deserving)
2014-05-30T16:19:49Z nyef: Ah, Brucio. Where would we be without you?
2014-05-30T16:20:33Z nyef: heddwch: You know that there's object-oriented COBOL these days, right?
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2014-05-30T16:21:24Z heddwch: nyef: haha yea =p
2014-05-30T16:21:54Z heddwch: Kind of the same as everything else. Not so much the language that's problematic as it is the legacy code written in it.
2014-05-30T16:22:32Z heddwch: wrt Bruce: I've never understood why people who haven't even bothered to learn anything about something can be bothered to write paragraphs about said thing.
2014-05-30T16:23:07Z jasom: heddwch: imo it's an obvoius troll; he learned enough about it to say things that will bait people to respond with a lot of emotion
2014-05-30T16:24:01Z heddwch: Good point, and would explain the motivation for actually writing all that.
2014-05-30T16:24:07Z Shinmera: "C - hard to read, too fast"
2014-05-30T16:24:13Z PuercoPop: what CL got right? #2 Pathnames!
2014-05-30T16:24:16Z Shinmera: If that isn't an obvious giveaway
2014-05-30T16:24:23Z heddwch: lol Shinmera
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2014-05-30T16:27:01Z jasom:  C-c C-w C-c doesn't seem to do what I think it does
2014-05-30T16:27:26Z Xach: I use that a lot. What did you think it did?
2014-05-30T16:27:31Z jasom: I am looking at a call to cffi:load-foreign-library that I found with grep, and is loaded into my image, but isn't found with it.
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2014-05-30T16:27:42Z jasom: I thought it listed callers of a function
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2014-05-30T16:28:04Z Xach: Wow, brucio's oldest posts are 10 years old this year.
2014-05-30T16:28:11Z Xach: Time flies!
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2014-05-30T16:28:33Z nyef: Maybe Brucio will return for a retrospective?
2014-05-30T16:28:44Z jdz: Xach: i wonder what happened with Brucio?
2014-05-30T16:29:13Z jdz: maybe he just said everything there was to say
2014-05-30T16:29:13Z Xach: probably he died in a hovercraft accident in belize
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2014-05-30T16:31:48Z jasom: Xach: I think it has listed the caller that I was looking for about 10% of the time, all the rest of the times I just have to resort to grep.
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2014-05-30T16:32:30Z Xach: jasom: hmm, i'd say it works way more often than that for me.
2014-05-30T16:32:55Z jdz: i have (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 1) in my .sbclrc
2014-05-30T16:33:10Z jasom: And I have yet to figure out why it lists some callers but not others
2014-05-30T16:33:17Z jdz: maybe that helps with cross reference recording
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2014-05-30T16:35:15Z jdz: nah, sbcl manual does not say it helps with that
2014-05-30T16:35:52Z jdz: it says "Source location information is only available when the debug optimization quality is at least 2." though, in 5.5.2
2014-05-30T16:36:12Z jdz: time to update my .sbclrc
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2014-05-30T16:36:53Z jdz: oh wait, that's not cross referencing...
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2014-05-30T16:43:08Z jasom: why does cl-launch generate a wrapper script for ccl executables?  I've always done it directly without any issues.
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2014-05-30T16:43:47Z jasom: nevermind, I mistyped an option
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2014-05-30T17:11:13Z orthecreedence: hey everyone, got a weird problem you can hopefully help me with
2014-05-30T17:11:16Z orthecreedence: https://gist.github.com/orthecreedence/2e7d974cfbbed733347f
2014-05-30T17:11:41Z orthecreedence: so this is a very simplified version of a library i'm working on, and it's not loading in ECL (nor does the library)
2014-05-30T17:11:57Z pjb: Unexpected end of file on #<basic-file-character-input-stream ("/tmp/mlet.lisp"/4 utf-8) #x302003AAF8DD>, near position 1686  [Condition of type end-of-file]
2014-05-30T17:11:57Z pjb:  
2014-05-30T17:11:58Z orthecreedence: it seems to work everywhere else and i'm wondering if there's anything i can do to make it work in ECL
2014-05-30T17:12:36Z pjb: It expands to a macrolet.
2014-05-30T17:12:48Z orthecreedence: right you are, sorry, hang on
2014-05-30T17:12:54Z pjb: in ccl.
2014-05-30T17:13:00Z pjb: Let me try in ecl.
2014-05-30T17:13:22Z orthecreedence: ok fixed the unclosed paren (sorry i hand edited some of it to make it clearer)
2014-05-30T17:13:26Z Bike: you can't dump environments, i don't think, that could be a problem
2014-05-30T17:13:35Z pjb: Indeed.
2014-05-30T17:14:05Z pjb: But env is used at macroexpansion time.
2014-05-30T17:14:10Z orthecreedence: meaning i cant use them as a first-class object unside of a macro or what?
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2014-05-30T17:14:24Z pjb: orthecreedence: it's ok, you don't leak it out.
2014-05-30T17:14:25Z Bike: pjb: yeah but it's left in the expansion (to macrolet)
2014-05-30T17:14:49Z pjb: Right.
2014-05-30T17:15:25Z Bike: i don't know if that's okay, actually, i mean the macrolet will be expanded before dumping also...
2014-05-30T17:15:25Z pjb:  (macro-function 'attack nil) should be captured at macroexpansion of wrap, not in the macrolet macro.
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2014-05-30T17:16:23Z Bike: can't dump functions either, so hopefully dumping isn't the issue
2014-05-30T17:16:45Z orthecreedence: sorry, what do you guys mean by "dumping"?
2014-05-30T17:16:47Z Bike: Oh, wait.
2014-05-30T17:16:57Z Bike: What if your error just means that ecl represents environments as lists?
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2014-05-30T17:17:44Z Bike: This is still pretty bad, but does replacing (macro-function 'attack ,env) with (macro-function 'attack ',env) work?
2014-05-30T17:17:50Z orthecreedence: ECL output of (format t "env: ~a~%" env)
2014-05-30T17:17:51Z orthecreedence: env: (((BLOCK TEST NIL (1 . 1)) (FUNCTION-BOUNDARY SPECIAL NIL (1 . 0))))
2014-05-30T17:18:04Z orthecreedence: Bike: i'll try
2014-05-30T17:18:09Z Bike: orthecreedence: dumping means serializing an object to a fasl.
2014-05-30T17:18:43Z orthecreedence: that did it =]
2014-05-30T17:18:47Z Bike: I don't /think/ it's a problem here since the env and/or macro function should be gone by the time macroexpansion's finished...
2014-05-30T17:18:52Z orthecreedence: you guys are geniuses
2014-05-30T17:18:52Z Bike: Huh. Well, there you go then.
2014-05-30T17:18:54Z drewc: (eq dumping (+ compile output-to-file))
2014-05-30T17:19:24Z Bike: environments aren't really first-class so that's the kind of thing you have to remember, i guess!
2014-05-30T17:19:28Z orthecreedence: so will the quote break in CCL/SBCL? i guess i can test easily and add my own logic around it
2014-05-30T17:19:41Z Bike: nah, environments should be self-evaluating there
2014-05-30T17:20:02Z Bike: the representation of environments is wholly unspecified, sbcl just happens to use a structure-object while ecl uses a list
2014-05-30T17:20:18Z Bike: ccl probably uses an object too
2014-05-30T17:20:20Z orthecreedence: that's really odd you have to quote it though, hmm
2014-05-30T17:20:23Z orthecreedence: yeah ccl uses an object
2014-05-30T17:20:27Z Bike: No, it makes sense.
2014-05-30T17:20:55Z Bike: The environment is just a list, so you're outputting something like (funcall (macro-function 'attack (((block test nil (1 . 1)) ...) ...) which is invalid code.
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2014-05-30T17:22:11Z orthecreedence: ok, that makes sense
2014-05-30T17:22:23Z orthecreedence: thanks a ton for your help, this has been a big road block for me
2014-05-30T17:22:28Z Bike: anyway, pjb's probably right that you should get the macro-function during the expansion
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2014-05-30T17:22:50Z orthecreedence: how so?
2014-05-30T17:22:51Z Bike: something like (let ((am (macro-function 'attack env))) `(macrolet ((... (funcall ,am ...))) ...)), see
2014-05-30T17:22:57Z pjb: But then you would have to serialize the macro function.
2014-05-30T17:23:11Z orthecreedence: right, either way felt "dirty" to me
2014-05-30T17:23:30Z orthecreedence: in one case you have an env object floating around between macros, in the other you have a function
2014-05-30T17:23:44Z Bike: pjb: well, that's what i'm not sure about the restrictions on... it should work if wrap is always used at the top level though, i think?
2014-05-30T17:23:45Z orthecreedence: the code for the env method ended up being cleaner so i went with it
2014-05-30T17:24:11Z pjb: See: http://paste.lisp.org/+324V
2014-05-30T17:24:23Z Bike: or, no, at all, since the macrolet is gone by dump time
2014-05-30T17:24:46Z pjb: ah yes, I forgot :-)
2014-05-30T17:25:03Z Bike: weird stuff
2014-05-30T17:25:48Z Bike: orthecreedence: if i were you i'd explain a lot of this in the comments, lest the next maintainer have an aneurysm in confusion
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2014-05-30T17:26:16Z orthecreedence: yes, i intend to revamp them a bit to make everything clearer
2014-05-30T17:26:26Z orthecreedence: for the curious, this is the end result: http://orthecreedence.github.io/cl-async/future
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2014-05-30T17:26:42Z orthecreedence: i guess i never fully tested it in ECL until now
2014-05-30T17:26:50Z Bike: i think the macro-function version is better, since environments could be stack allocated so keeping one around is probably incorrect
2014-05-30T17:26:59Z Xach: oi, orthecreedence
2014-05-30T17:27:10Z orthecreedence: ok, good to know
2014-05-30T17:27:10Z Bike: and besides that it strikes me as even uglier, but who knows
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2014-05-30T17:27:20Z Xach: orthecreedence: cl-async-future-test doesn't compile for me in sbcl 1.2.0
2014-05-30T17:27:30Z orthecreedence: whats the error?
2014-05-30T17:27:35Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/cl-async-future/2014-05-30/failtail.txt
2014-05-30T17:27:40Z Xach: It has to do with that (+ var "5") thing
2014-05-30T17:28:17Z Bike: i wouldn't think that a modern implementation would stack allocate environments, but i wouldn't have thought they'd represent them as lists either, so who knows
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2014-05-30T17:28:49Z orthecreedence: oh, thanks for the heads up
2014-05-30T17:28:56Z orthecreedence: i didnt think that would throw a compile error
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2014-05-30T17:29:07Z orthecreedence: i guess i'll just throw the TYPE-ERROR manually
2014-05-30T17:29:43Z orthecreedence: Bike: that makes sense, i think i'll go with expanding the function outside of the macrolet as you suggest
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2014-05-30T17:30:29Z orthecreedence: well, shit
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2014-05-30T17:30:46Z orthecreedence: now i ECL i'm getting Condition of type: SIMPLE-PROGRAM-ERROR In form (FUNCALL '#1=#<bytecompiled-function MLET-NONR::ATTACK> ...) FUNCTION: Not a valid argument #1#.
2014-05-30T17:31:35Z Bike: um, hm.
2014-05-30T17:32:40Z Bike: I don't know ECL. What's the type of, say, (compile nil (lambda (x) x))?
2014-05-30T17:33:03Z pjb: #<compiled-function 0000000006365cc0>
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2014-05-30T17:33:47Z Bike: Huh. So does (funcall (macro-function 'cl:something) ...) not work either...?
2014-05-30T17:33:53Z pjb: orthecreedence: AFAIK, this is a conformance error.
2014-05-30T17:33:55Z pjb: Report it.
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2014-05-30T17:34:08Z orthecreedence: ok
2014-05-30T17:34:38Z orthecreedence: do you know if they use the tracker on SF or is the mailing list better?
2014-05-30T17:35:10Z stassats: "they" use the bug tracker
2014-05-30T17:35:33Z orthecreedence: he? thanks =]
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2014-05-30T17:37:45Z orthecreedence: Xach: test fixed, seems to be loading/running in SBCL now.
2014-05-30T17:38:02Z Xach: tusen tack
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2014-05-30T17:40:17Z drewc: hur omkring en miljon tack!
2014-05-30T17:42:00Z drewc wanted a new language to learn, needs a break from Ulster Gaelic.
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2014-05-30T17:42:56Z dlowe: I'd recommend lojban but it's got some social issues :/
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2014-05-30T17:43:20Z dlowe: which are flagrantly off topic here
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2014-05-30T17:45:52Z jasom: Bike, orthecreedence there looks to be an extra quote in the funcall
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2014-05-30T17:46:41Z Bike: orthecreedence: what's the code for this?
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2014-05-30T17:47:41Z effy: why is there a difference between a function passed as #'function-name that need funcall to be used and a lambda that can be called as is, is it due to ease of implementation or is there a more profound reason behind this distinction ?
2014-05-30T17:48:07Z jasom: effy: lambda is a macro that expands to a (function ...) form
2014-05-30T17:48:23Z jasom: effy: and #' is a shortcut for (function )
2014-05-30T17:48:33Z jasom: effy: oh wait, I misread yoru question
2014-05-30T17:48:45Z effy: jasom: why isn't lambda a macro that expand to #'(function ..)
2014-05-30T17:48:55Z Bike: well, because that would be wrong, for one
2014-05-30T17:48:56Z oGMo: because that would be (function (function ...))
2014-05-30T17:49:14Z jasom: effy: it doesn't get expanded in the case you are talking about
2014-05-30T17:49:25Z Bike: are you asking about (funcall (lambda ...) ...) and (funcall foo ...), or about (foo ...) and ((lambda ...) ...)?
2014-05-30T17:49:29Z jasom: clhs 3.1.2.1.2.4
2014-05-30T17:49:29Z specbot: Lambda Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababd.htm
2014-05-30T17:49:42Z jasom: ((lambda () ...) is I think what effy is asking about now
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2014-05-30T17:49:47Z Bike: if the latter, then yeah, it's special cased
2014-05-30T17:50:25Z jasom: Bike: anyway in ecl (defmacro foo () nil) (let ((x (macro-function 'foo nil))) (funcall x nil nil)) => NIL
2014-05-30T17:50:28Z effy: why do i need to do (funcall #'+ 1 2) but i can do ((lambda (x y) (+ x y)) 1 2) without the funcall
2014-05-30T17:50:44Z Bike: Because of lambda forms, as jasom linked.
2014-05-30T17:50:44Z jasom: effy: you can do (+ 1 2) without the funcall
2014-05-30T17:51:22Z effy: jasom: yeah yeah sure i mean i try to understand the difference between passing a #'something and a lambda as a parameter to another function not calling it right away :)
2014-05-30T17:51:46Z jasom: And you don't need the #' on (funcall (lambda () ... because of this
2014-05-30T17:51:58Z jasom: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_lambda.htm
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2014-05-30T17:53:04Z jasom: effy: just to check you are aware that #'foo is syntactic sugar for (function foo)?
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2014-05-30T17:55:30Z effy: yes, i understand that, but i think i am mising something else, a lambda is immediatly callable without the use of funcall, but a (function foo) isn't immediatly callable, it needs to be passed to a funcall, why is there a distinction, isn't a lambda just a function, (i guess i am confused because in languages i am more familiar with such a python a lambda and a function can both be called exactly in the same way)
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2014-05-30T17:56:16Z Bike: ((lambda ...) ...) is a syntactic form. When you're talking about "calling" a function, that means using FUNCALL, which treats all function forms the same.
2014-05-30T17:56:22Z zwer: effy common lisp has a separate namespace for functions and variables
2014-05-30T17:56:32Z jasom: effy: part of the confusion is that lambda appearing in the function call position is treated differently from a lambda appearing elsewhere
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2014-05-30T17:57:16Z zwer: (which seems to have nothing to do with this, ignore me)
2014-05-30T17:57:22Z jasom: effy: Anything you can put inside (function ...) you can have without the (function ...) in function call position
2014-05-30T17:58:10Z jasom: so e.g. (funcall (function +) 1 2) has the same effect as (+ 1 2) and (funcall (function (lambda (x)) y)) has the same effect as ((lambda (x) y)
2014-05-30T17:58:35Z nyef: I forget, does that work for setf-function names?
2014-05-30T17:58:50Z jasom: effy: part of what is confusing is that there is a macro that expands (lambda ...) to (function (lambda ...))
2014-05-30T17:58:56Z jasom: nyef: it is undefined
2014-05-30T17:59:02Z jasom: nyef: clisp allows it, sbcl does not
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2014-05-30T18:00:06Z jasom: nyef: 3.1.2.1.2.3 requires it to be "a symbol naming a function"
2014-05-30T18:00:22Z effy: jasom: i guess the macro part confuse me, is the macro lambda itself and it is ALWAYS expanded to (function (lambda ..)) or is it conditionally expanded according to where it is located
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2014-05-30T18:00:37Z jasom: effy: it is expanded whenever a macro would be expanded :P
2014-05-30T18:00:57Z effy: common lisp makes me feel dumb :(
2014-05-30T18:01:27Z jasom: effy: figuring out what to do with the form (X Y Z) happens before macroexpansion time, so if X is a lambda form, it doesn't get expanded, but rather treted as mentioned in 3.1.2.1.2.4
2014-05-30T18:01:34Z jasom: clhs 3.1.2.1.2
2014-05-30T18:01:34Z specbot: Conses as Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_abab.htm
2014-05-30T18:01:42Z zwer: if (lambda ..) lambda expands to (function (lambda ..)) what is stopping it from expanding infinitely?
2014-05-30T18:01:55Z jasom: zwer: because function is a special form
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2014-05-30T18:02:12Z jasom: zwer: it gets raw unprocessed arguments to do with as it pleases
2014-05-30T18:02:13Z jasom: brb
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2014-05-30T18:04:28Z effy: so in my understanding (correct me if i'm still wrong please) when we have ((lambda ..) A B) it is expanded to (funcall (function (lambda ..))) A B) but when we have (A (lambda ..) B) it is expanded as (A (function (lambda ..)) B), is that right ?
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2014-05-30T18:08:39Z jasom: effy: no
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2014-05-30T18:09:02Z effy sob
2014-05-30T18:09:07Z jasom: ((lambda ..) A B) is handled by the lisp evaluator as a direct call to the  lambda
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2014-05-30T18:09:24Z jasom: just like (foo A B) is handled by the lisp evaluator as a direct call to the function named foo
2014-05-30T18:09:59Z jasom: so those two work the same
2014-05-30T18:10:30Z pjb: or vice versa.
2014-05-30T18:10:45Z pjb: let could be handled by the lisp evaluator as a direct function call using lambda.
2014-05-30T18:10:54Z pjb: Depends on the implementation.
2014-05-30T18:10:55Z effy: ok i'll try to turn arround my question then to see if it can help me grasp it, why can i ((lambda ..) A B) but not (#'foo A B) and equivalently why can i (mapcar (lamba ..) A) but not (mapcar foo A) ?
2014-05-30T18:11:17Z jasom: effy: that's two questions with two different answers
2014-05-30T18:11:22Z oleo: because #'foo anounces a function but does not say to call it....
2014-05-30T18:11:38Z oleo: you need funcall for that....
2014-05-30T18:11:43Z effy: why aren't lambda and #' treated the same way ?
2014-05-30T18:11:48Z jasom: effy: (function foo) gets the function named by foo
2014-05-30T18:11:59Z pjb: because CL is a lisp-2.
2014-05-30T18:12:05Z drewc: "zwer: effy common lisp has a separate namespace for functions and variables"
2014-05-30T18:12:05Z pjb: Please read: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html
2014-05-30T18:12:08Z effy: scheme is a lisp-1 ?
2014-05-30T18:12:10Z oleo: because lambda is a macro, whereas #' is for referring to the second namespace.....
2014-05-30T18:12:21Z jasom: so if there were semantics for it (which there arent) ((function foo) A B) would be "call the function named by the function object named by foo"
2014-05-30T18:12:33Z jasom: that's obviously non-sensical
2014-05-30T18:12:37Z oleo: no function would declare foo to be #'foo
2014-05-30T18:12:47Z pjb: oleo: this is irrelevant. the macro lambda expands to (function (lambda …)) so that wouldn't explain.
2014-05-30T18:13:01Z jdz: oleo: actually it's the other way around
2014-05-30T18:13:14Z oleo: ?
2014-05-30T18:13:15Z jasom: The second one (why can you mapcar (lambda ...)) is because (mapcar (lambda ...)) gets expanded to (mapcar (function (lambda ...))) which is the same as doing (mapcar (function foo))
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2014-05-30T18:13:24Z jdz: oleo: #'foo reads as (function foo)
2014-05-30T18:13:28Z oleo: yes
2014-05-30T18:13:34Z oleo: i said that i thought....
2014-05-30T18:13:45Z pjb: But in anycase, those are post-hoc justifications.  It just happens that ((lambda (…) …) …) is very practical in macro writing, and that the macro (lambda …) is needed for compatibilty with iso-lisp.
2014-05-30T18:13:59Z oleo: yep
2014-05-30T18:14:30Z jdz: ((lambda (x) (* x x)) 2)
2014-05-30T18:14:32Z jasom: effy: the question is, why would you want to add an extra step to calling foo (e.g. ((function foo) ...) instead of just (foo ...))
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2014-05-30T18:14:50Z jdz: i'm missing the context, so i'll just shut up
2014-05-30T18:16:14Z effy: jasom: i agree with you i wouldn't want to add a step to call it, but i dont like it either to have to add a step to call it when i pass it as a parameter to a function (defun foo (procedure ..) (funcall procedure ..)) i feel that in other language would be (procedure ..) without the funcall, that's why i was curious if there was a special reason for this :)
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2014-05-30T18:16:46Z jasom: effy: ah, well thats a different question
2014-05-30T18:16:53Z drewc: effy: "zwer: effy common lisp has a separate namespace for functions and variables"
2014-05-30T18:17:02Z effy: that was my original question, but it was poorly phrased sorry
2014-05-30T18:17:05Z jasom: "Why can't I (let ((x (function +))) (x 1 2))"
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2014-05-30T18:17:48Z jasom: effy: and the answer is that all compound forms in lisp are of the form (OPERATOR . STUFF)
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2014-05-30T18:18:23Z pjb: the answer is because CL is a lisp-2.
2014-05-30T18:18:26Z jasom: effy: and OPERATOR can be a special-operator, a macro, a symbol naming a function, or a lambda; this is thought to be useful for several reasons
2014-05-30T18:18:43Z oleo: you can have (let ((x (function +))) (funcall x 1 2)) -> 3
2014-05-30T18:18:52Z jasom: oleo: we know that
2014-05-30T18:19:05Z pjb: operator can only be a symbol naming:  a special-operator, a macro or a function,   or a lambda expression.
2014-05-30T18:19:28Z effy: (function ..) is a special form right ?
2014-05-30T18:19:37Z jasom: effy: correct, and function is a special operator
2014-05-30T18:19:38Z pjb: the reason is because the operator IS NOT evaluated in CL.
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2014-05-30T18:20:27Z effy: funcall and (OPERATOR . STUFF) dont lookup into the same table, that's why i cant call it directly, i think it makes sense in my head now :)
2014-05-30T18:20:38Z effy: you guys are pretty awesome, thanks
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2014-05-30T18:20:45Z jasom: effy: right.  This is why you can have a variable named list
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2014-05-30T18:21:30Z drewc is actually working with vehicle data right now, and has a variable named cl:car
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2014-05-30T18:22:57Z jasom: effy: funcall is a function, so all of its arguments get evaluated (if OPERATOR names function then all of STUFF gets evaluated; for special-operators and macros that is not necessarily the case)
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2014-05-30T20:41:52Z Fizzixnerd: Hi, I was wondering if SBCL had anyway to get the current line number and function inside a file
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2014-05-30T20:42:06Z Fizzixnerd: something akin to C's #line
2014-05-30T20:42:28Z Xach: Fizzixnerd: I don't think so. If it did, what would you do with that info?
2014-05-30T20:42:52Z Bicyclidine: usually if there's a compile-time problem it'll give you a line number
2014-05-30T20:43:01Z Fizzixnerd: I would use it to allow gdb source level debug a lisp -> C translator I'm writing
2014-05-30T20:43:03Z Xach: It will?
2014-05-30T20:43:24Z Fizzixnerd: I need to emite #line stuff
2014-05-30T20:43:27Z Fizzixnerd: emit*
2014-05-30T20:43:30Z nyef: There might be something in terms of the underlying stream?
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2014-05-30T20:44:13Z Fizzixnerd: nothing in sb-impl or something?
2014-05-30T20:44:35Z Fizzixnerd: is there documentation for sbcl's internal packages I can look at?
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2014-05-30T20:47:55Z Denommus: Fizzixnerd: DESCRIBE works :-)
2014-05-30T20:49:30Z Fizzixnerd: hmm... I'm not sure how I'd use it to get the information I'm looking for
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2014-05-30T20:49:47Z Fizzixnerd: say I do (defun blah () ????)
2014-05-30T20:49:54Z Fizzixnerd: what would I replace ????? with to get the line number?
2014-05-30T20:50:18Z Fizzixnerd: I tried calling with no arguments, but it barfs
2014-05-30T20:50:35Z nyef: Fizzixnerd: Step one: Figure out if SBCL *ever* reports this kind of thing itself in its error messages. Step two (if it does): Find that error message in the source code, and see how it gets built.
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2014-05-30T20:51:01Z nyef: (Alternately, CLWEB has some interesting hacks for positioning information, you might try looking at that.)
2014-05-30T20:51:06Z Xach: It reports file position (from the beginning of the file) and form structure, but not line number, IIRC.
2014-05-30T20:51:17Z nyef: Yeah, that's the impression I got.
2014-05-30T20:51:25Z Fizzixnerd: that's really frustrating.
2014-05-30T20:51:41Z Fizzixnerd: well, thank you very much for your help
2014-05-30T20:51:46Z Fizzixnerd: you guys are awesome
2014-05-30T20:51:59Z nyef: I can think of a couple of methods to get what you want from the information available, but they're a bit hacky.
2014-05-30T20:52:18Z Fizzixnerd: I'll try the sbcl source first, and come back if I fail
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2014-05-30T21:01:15Z Xach: Fizzixnerd: is it for Common Lisp, or for a subset of your own?
2014-05-30T21:01:24Z Fizzixnerd: Its a subset
2014-05-30T21:01:33Z Fizzixnerd: basically C written in Lisp syntax
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2014-05-30T21:01:47Z nyef: So, like a number of prior projects.
2014-05-30T21:01:48Z Fizzixnerd: but it runs in a CL package, so that you can use CL functiosn and macros
2014-05-30T21:01:53Z Fizzixnerd: yeah
2014-05-30T21:01:58Z Fizzixnerd: I'm not trying to be original here
2014-05-30T21:02:15Z nyef: Okay, as long as you realize that there may be interesting prior art out there.
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2014-05-30T21:02:38Z Fizzixnerd: yup
2014-05-30T21:02:46Z Fizzixnerd: It's mostly for fun tbh
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2014-05-30T21:26:16Z owl-v-: what's advantage of lisp compared to objective languages?
2014-05-30T21:26:45Z findiggle: owl-v-: What's an "objective language"?
2014-05-30T21:26:51Z drewc: not all tasks are objective
2014-05-30T21:27:09Z nyef: What's the advantage of means compared to ends?
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2014-05-30T21:28:05Z Xach: Why is a raven like a writing-desk?
2014-05-30T21:28:28Z owl-v-: findiggle: haha. objective oriented languages
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2014-05-30T21:28:45Z Xach: owl-v-: what does that mean?
2014-05-30T21:29:09Z p_l just points that CL qualifies as Object-Oriented language
2014-05-30T21:29:27Z p_l: not sure about Objective, but that sounds a bit too objectivist to me, so I'll abstain on philosophical grounds
2014-05-30T21:29:50Z nyef: Xach: They both begin with "are".
2014-05-30T21:31:51Z owl-v-: assuming c++, objective-c, java are in the same group, what's advantage in using lisp?
2014-05-30T21:33:00Z findiggle: I guess your opinion on CLOS is subjective.
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2014-05-30T21:33:46Z owl-v-: i'll change my question
2014-05-30T21:33:49Z owl-v-: hm..
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2014-05-30T21:34:50Z nyef: owl-v-: Have you read "taste for the web" yet?
2014-05-30T21:34:58Z owl-v-: what is advantage of using lisp in the industry?
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2014-05-30T21:35:30Z nyef: I notice a definite common theme between C++, Objective-C and Java that isn't present in Common Lisp, and "taste for the web" definitely addresses that theme directly.
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2014-05-30T21:37:32Z nyef: Oh, and as far as "industry" goes? I'll give you a hint: Technical considerations rarely apply.
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2014-05-30T21:43:53Z owl-v-: i find quite tolerant about curly brace. it's easier to press { then ( because the key position is lower, more closer to shift key.
2014-05-30T21:44:23Z nyef: ... Why would that matter?
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2014-05-30T21:45:03Z nyef: Your argument should be about proximity to the home keys, if anything. The standard shift key to use for right-hand keys is the left shift.
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2014-05-30T21:46:33Z owl-v-: really?
2014-05-30T21:47:15Z drewc: what industry are we referring to?
2014-05-30T21:47:46Z effy: pjb: just finished reading http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html thanks for the link it was really instructive, but now i feel kind of sad that the choice was made in favor of lisp-2 instead of lisp-1 :(
2014-05-30T21:47:53Z owl-v-: for over 20 years, I have used right-shift for 95% of times. 5% is for video games.
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2014-05-30T21:50:45Z effy: so if you type a | owl-v- you have to totally lift your hand from the keyboard, there's no way your could press | and right shift at once without moving
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2014-05-30T21:51:13Z owl-v-: iffy, yes i can
2014-05-30T21:51:14Z owl-v-: |
2014-05-30T21:51:29Z owl-v-: i kinda roll my hand
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2014-05-30T21:51:32Z nyef: effy: Actually, I can do that as well, though it's not great on my pinky.
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2014-05-30T21:52:01Z owl-v-: nyef, I'm using whole finger, not just a tip
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2014-05-30T21:52:06Z effy: i might not have the same layout as you then
2014-05-30T21:52:38Z owl-v-: macbook-layout *shrug*
2014-05-30T21:52:59Z urandom__: learning how to use both shift keys properly is definitely worth it, just saying
2014-05-30T21:53:40Z nyef: owl-v-: Exactly. Sortof torques the finger so that everything forward of the knuckle is under the palm. Not great.
2014-05-30T21:53:53Z effy: http://www.computerhope.com/help/qwerty.gif
2014-05-30T21:54:18Z owl-v-: maybe. but sometimes i have to type in capitalize a letter so i keep press right-shift so i don't have tho think about left and right shift
2014-05-30T21:54:24Z owl-v-: LIKE THIS.
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2014-05-30T21:55:12Z owl-v-: effy: yes, that's very close to macbook-air keyboard
2014-05-30T21:55:12Z nyef: That's what the *left* shift is for, you don't need to roll your hand over nearly as much unless you're going for ~.
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2014-05-30T21:57:34Z owl-v-: my typing speed will decrease if i use left and right shift or miss-type capitalized character. LiKE tHIs
2014-05-30T21:58:31Z drewc: so we are talking about using lisp in the data-entry industry?
2014-05-30T21:58:37Z owl-v-: if i use right-shfit, it's constantly capitalized as long as i keep pressing it. and caps lock is sucks for capitalizing one character. Like This One.
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2014-05-30T22:02:45Z drewc: you mean your CapsLk key is not remapped to Ctrl? odd! Maybe you should look at remapping the data-entry keyboard, or perhaps use a Stenotype ... that would likely be a bigger help to the industry than Common Lisp.
2014-05-30T22:03:15Z owl-v-: this is what i think. if I'm hired by a company, it is unlikely to use lisp because they will make me to use some other language that they know. If i'm the one to hire people, it is very hard to find people who are exposed to lisp; Unless i make them to use lisp.
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2014-05-30T22:05:00Z effy: it's a double edge sword, if you hire for lisp developers there is less of them but at the same time there's also way less job offers so you might have a better ratio anyway
2014-05-30T22:05:33Z nyef: s/is less/are fewer/.
2014-05-30T22:05:54Z effy: thanks
2014-05-30T22:06:13Z drewc: So, you should probably look in to flipping burgers and cooking fries if you want to look at something that will get you a job anyplace, and you can move up to management and hire people who are exposed to grilling. OR: Lisp is not mainstream, so if you want to be in the mainstream and hire mainstreams after that, it is not likely a good fit.
2014-05-30T22:06:14Z nyef: (them being plural. If it was singular then "is less" would have been correct.)
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2014-05-30T22:13:08Z drewc started using emacs as his editor around the time he started CL'ing ... my recent code was in #!/bin/sh, but I still used my heavily brutalized/customized emacs, which is more "Common Lisp" than CLtL1's were ... so using Lisp in order to write sh code.
2014-05-30T22:14:50Z drewc: In other words, even if my clients want "sh -c $CODE", I am still using lisp. Programming is fun, after all, and CL makes it more so IMHO.
2014-05-30T22:15:16Z nyef: "If programming isn't fun, you're doing it wrong"?
2014-05-30T22:15:16Z Fizzixnerd: Talking about swapping capslock -> ctrl, I'm really confused why people dont do what I did, which is replace the right alt key with control
2014-05-30T22:15:29Z Fizzixnerd: that way you have ctrl on your right thumb, and alt on your left
2014-05-30T22:15:54Z nyef: Thumbs are for the space bar and for "mouse" buttons.
2014-05-30T22:16:14Z nyef uses a ThinkPad x61 keyboard most of the time... or a MacBook Pro keyboard.
2014-05-30T22:16:34Z Fizzixnerd: It makes life a lot easer
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2014-05-30T22:16:40Z Fizzixnerd: C-a for instance
2014-05-30T22:16:52Z Fizzixnerd: would be a pain with capslock as control
2014-05-30T22:17:41Z nyef: Oh, yes, because hitting two adjacent home-row keys at once is hard.
2014-05-30T22:18:05Z Fizzixnerd: it is when the finger you normally use for a is being used for a different purpose
2014-05-30T22:18:20Z Fizzixnerd: same for q and z, and possible 1 depending on your typing style
2014-05-30T22:18:33Z drewc: perhaps it is because I played piano before I started typing, but two finger Arpeggios are quite simple
2014-05-30T22:18:56Z Fizzixnerd: I played piano too, but I still notice the difference between easy and easier
2014-05-30T22:19:35Z nyef sighs.
2014-05-30T22:19:48Z nyef: Time to give up on installing Debian tonight.
2014-05-30T22:20:05Z Fizzixnerd: use ubuntu! :D
2014-05-30T22:20:34Z Fizzixnerd: quick, lets start a holy war about which distro is best
2014-05-30T22:20:40Z nyef: Yes, because Ubuntu is going to work on a computer that Debian won't.
2014-05-30T22:20:58Z Fizzixnerd: well, ubuntu is generally seen as easier to install
2014-05-30T22:20:59Z drewc: you are correct ... Arpeggios on the Guitar was harder ... I own 2 guitars and no pianos.... so my opinion on which is "better" is likely well known ;)
2014-05-30T22:21:09Z drewc: Mint 16
2014-05-30T22:21:59Z Fizzixnerd: guitars and pianos are not chosen based on how difficult their arpeggios are
2014-05-30T22:22:03Z drewc: either that or the debian testing version of Mint, if you prefer that to the Ubuntu stable releases
2014-05-30T22:22:19Z Fizzixnerd: I like vanilla Ubuntu
2014-05-30T22:22:34Z nyef: I like *working hardware*, which rules out ALL of those options.
2014-05-30T22:22:42Z Fizzixnerd: hmm?
2014-05-30T22:22:42Z drewc: and assuming we are talking about x86[s|-64s]
2014-05-30T22:22:55Z Fizzixnerd: my hardware works just fine
2014-05-30T22:22:57Z Fizzixnerd: well, that's not fair
2014-05-30T22:23:08Z Fizzixnerd: I had to submit a kernel patch to make multitouch to work on the touchpad
2014-05-30T22:23:11Z nyef: HPPA here.
2014-05-30T22:23:13Z Fizzixnerd: but NOW it works just fine :D
2014-05-30T22:23:40Z Fizzixnerd: even the touchpad works well
2014-05-30T22:23:45Z drewc: on my other devices I run debian testing chrooted under android, or raspbian for my PIs.
2014-05-30T22:23:55Z Fizzixnerd: and wacom tablets work better than on Windows, bizzarely
2014-05-30T22:24:23Z Fizzixnerd: Pis are fun to play around with
2014-05-30T22:24:30Z drewc is going to buy a new keyboard this weekend actually!
2014-05-30T22:24:39Z Fizzixnerd: Sweet!
2014-05-30T22:24:44Z drewc: http://pckeyboard.com/page/EnduraPro/UNI0PGA
2014-05-30T22:25:04Z Fizzixnerd: clickity clack?
2014-05-30T22:25:15Z drewc: Model M
2014-05-30T22:25:15Z Fizzixnerd: I think I'm the only one who doesn't own a mechanical keyboard
2014-05-30T22:25:25Z Fizzixnerd: jesus, 5 poounds
2014-05-30T22:25:32Z Fizzixnerd: pounds*
2014-05-30T22:25:35Z drewc: metal
2014-05-30T22:25:50Z nyef: Mmm. And that one has a trackpoint?
2014-05-30T22:25:54Z effy: isnt model M supposed to miss keys on the bottom ?
2014-05-30T22:26:04Z nyef: Needs a third mouse button, though...
2014-05-30T22:26:25Z p_l: effy: Model M refers more to the mechanics - they were sold in various layouts
2014-05-30T22:26:42Z Fizzixnerd: is track point useful?
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2014-05-30T22:26:56Z p_l: Fizzixnerd: from my pov, *VERY*
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2014-05-30T22:27:06Z drewc: nyef: yes, that is my only real complaint about it
2014-05-30T22:27:09Z p_l: it's the one thing that actually made me use the mouse poiner again :D
2014-05-30T22:27:13Z nyef: Fizzixnerd: It's a mouse pointer control, smack-dab in the middle of the home row.
2014-05-30T22:27:34Z nyef: And one of the reasons why ThinkPad computers are awesome at times.
2014-05-30T22:27:36Z Fizzixnerd: I know, but any  time I've tried to use it I've never been able to control it properly
2014-05-30T22:27:44Z Fizzixnerd: I suppose that's just practice though
2014-05-30T22:28:06Z drewc: All of my PCs are thinkpads, and I even owned the external thinkpad keyboard ... I like to touch the nipples all the time.
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2014-05-30T22:28:21Z Fizzixnerd: mmm
2014-05-30T22:28:45Z effy: (and this my kids is how #lisp became PG-18)
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2014-05-30T22:28:52Z drewc: now that unicomp has the Model M with the nipple, well ... I _love_ the Model M.
2014-05-30T22:29:06Z Fizzixnerd: I do most of my dev work on a laptop
2014-05-30T22:29:20Z Fizzixnerd: So I just thumb the touchpad
2014-05-30T22:29:27Z drewc: effy: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nipple+mouse
2014-05-30T22:29:28Z stassats: where can i find a channel for common lisp?
2014-05-30T22:29:36Z p_l: effy: meh, you haven't seen much ;)
2014-05-30T22:29:44Z nyef: effy: Also look up the term "tits on a keyboard".
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2014-05-30T22:30:06Z nyef: stassats: I hear that #sbcl occasionally still has common lisp related content.
2014-05-30T22:30:22Z Fizzixnerd: nyef: I give up looking at the source.  You said you had hacky ways to get line numbers?
2014-05-30T22:30:26Z drewc: I go over to #data-entry for that...
2014-05-30T22:30:46Z boogie quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2014-05-30T22:31:01Z nyef: Fizzixnerd: You can get the character position. Read the file into a sequence that large, count the number of newlines, and count the number of characters since the last newline.
2014-05-30T22:31:15Z Fizzixnerd: and how do I get the char position?
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2014-05-30T22:31:48Z nyef: clhs stream-position
2014-05-30T22:31:48Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for stream-position.
2014-05-30T22:31:54Z nyef: Hrm.
2014-05-30T22:32:04Z nyef: I forget what the function is called, apparently, but it's a standard one.
2014-05-30T22:32:09Z stassats: clhs f-p
2014-05-30T22:32:09Z specbot: Matches: file-position, fill-pointer, find-package, float-precision.
2014-05-30T22:32:14Z stassats: clhs file-position
2014-05-30T22:32:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_file_p.htm
2014-05-30T22:32:53Z Fizzixnerd: perfect, thank you
2014-05-30T22:32:58Z stassats: it's really a byte position, not a char position
2014-05-30T22:33:04Z nyef: There are crazy options involving massive stream and reader hackery if you want to nail down the positions for every form in a line.
2014-05-30T22:33:23Z Fizzixnerd: I don't need column position
2014-05-30T22:33:28Z Fizzixnerd: just line number
2014-05-30T22:33:55Z nyef: It's not even really a byte position. But for your purposes it works as such.
2014-05-30T22:34:31Z nyef: Another option is to hack up the readtable to alter the behavior of #\Newline.
2014-05-30T22:34:44Z Fizzixnerd: Oooo
2014-05-30T22:34:48Z Fizzixnerd: that might be a good one, actually
2014-05-30T22:35:01Z stassats: can you?
2014-05-30T22:35:04Z nyef: You'll also want to cover certain (string literal) quoting constructs as well.
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2014-05-30T22:36:47Z Fizzixnerd: hmmm
2014-05-30T22:36:52Z Fizzixnerd: how does it work inside macros?
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2014-05-30T22:38:58Z Fizzixnerd:  I guess I'll make all my macros on one line
2014-05-30T22:39:05Z Fizzixnerd: it shouldn't matter then
2014-05-30T22:40:32Z Fizzixnerd: also, is there a variable I can access that gives me the current stream being read from?
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2014-05-30T22:42:17Z stassats: by what?
2014-05-30T22:42:26Z Fizzixnerd: by the reader
2014-05-30T22:42:34Z stassats: each reader macro has a stream parameter
2014-05-30T22:42:43Z bjorkintosh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-05-30T22:42:46Z Fizzixnerd: I mean outside a reader macro
2014-05-30T22:43:06Z stassats: there's no reader outside of reader macros
2014-05-30T22:43:29Z bjz_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2014-05-30T22:43:38Z Fizzixnerd: I guess a stream associated with the file being read?
2014-05-30T22:43:44Z Fizzixnerd: for use with file-position
2014-05-30T22:43:50Z Fizzixnerd: or
2014-05-30T22:43:56Z Fizzixnerd: in reference to file-position
2014-05-30T22:44:03Z monod: Hey there!
2014-05-30T22:44:07Z stassats: your question doesn't make sense
2014-05-30T22:44:24Z Fizzixnerd: you're correct
2014-05-30T22:44:26Z monod: I'm studying Lisp in the spare time, but I can't wait to know what its power truly is
2014-05-30T22:44:28Z Fizzixnerd: let me think a little while
2014-05-30T22:44:36Z monod: Can somebody give me a tour?
2014-05-30T22:44:44Z stassats: minion: features?
2014-05-30T22:44:45Z minion: features: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/features
2014-05-30T22:44:58Z stassats: minion: common lisp features?
2014-05-30T22:44:58Z minion: common lisp is good
2014-05-30T22:45:04Z stassats: minion: you savage
2014-05-30T22:45:04Z minion: what's up?
2014-05-30T22:45:05Z Fizzixnerd: wow
2014-05-30T22:45:17Z Fizzixnerd: that's quite the AI you've got there
2014-05-30T22:45:17Z stassats: minion: the features of common lisp?
2014-05-30T22:45:18Z minion: i'm written in common lisp
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2014-05-30T22:45:28Z Fizzixnerd: amazing
2014-05-30T22:45:32Z Fizzixnerd: well
2014-05-30T22:45:34Z Fizzixnerd: there you go monod
2014-05-30T22:45:35Z stassats: minion: i'll rewrite you in java if you don't give me the answer
2014-05-30T22:45:35Z minion: Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 36 seconds is too many.
2014-05-30T22:45:56Z monod: Lol stassats
2014-05-30T22:46:01Z stassats: minion: features-of-common-lisp
2014-05-30T22:46:01Z minion: features-of-common-lisp: features of common lisp: Features of Common Lisp, a one-page summary of what makes Common Lisp unique: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp
2014-05-30T22:46:03Z monod: Fizzixnerd, What dya mean?
2014-05-30T22:46:14Z monod: Oh, thanks stassats and minion
2014-05-30T22:46:16Z stassats: that's not available, damn it
2014-05-30T22:46:23Z monod: Damn it
2014-05-30T22:46:36Z stassats: here's a copy http://random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html
2014-05-30T22:46:36Z monod: Webarchive maybe!
2014-05-30T22:46:39Z drewc: http://common-lisp.net/language.html
2014-05-30T22:46:39Z monod: Oh thanks
2014-05-30T22:46:45Z monod: Double thanksù
2014-05-30T22:46:49Z monod: :D
2014-05-30T22:46:55Z Fizzixnerd: generic functions, multimethods, auxillary methods, reader macros, macros in general
2014-05-30T22:47:01Z drewc: imagine that, a decent place for the copy of the copy :)
2014-05-30T22:47:27Z monod: Which one of the two you posted should I read first?
2014-05-30T22:47:43Z stassats: just read http://random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html
2014-05-30T22:48:03Z stassats: they are both the same, but the on at cl.net has bad formatting
2014-05-30T22:48:27Z monod: Ok
2014-05-30T22:48:30Z monod: Thanks
2014-05-30T22:48:58Z stassats: not bad, but worse
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2014-05-30T22:49:06Z oGMo: that glazes over macros but that's not necessarily a bad thing
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2014-05-30T22:49:58Z oGMo: lots of neat "wow" things like rationals up front
2014-05-30T22:50:15Z nightfly: Is there a more efficient way to create and initialize a fixed-size array of element type double-float than (make-array 3 :element-type 'double-float :initial-contents `(,1.0d0 ,2.0d0 ,3.0d0))?
2014-05-30T22:50:41Z arbscht quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2014-05-30T22:50:48Z nightfly: would it be more efficient to just make-array it and (setf (aref)) the elements?
2014-05-30T22:51:04Z lwm: hi folks, I was just lurking in #haskell when someone dropped a bomb on me saying there is a general opinion that common lisp is not functional ...
2014-05-30T22:51:04Z Fizzixnerd: that's implementation dependant, I would imagine
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2014-05-30T22:51:10Z oGMo: nightfly: no, and you can probably use (list ..) there
2014-05-30T22:51:32Z Fizzixnerd: lwm: common lisp is not purely functional.
2014-05-30T22:51:42Z oGMo: nightfly: or, you can (defun make-double-vector (&rest intial-elements) ...) ;)
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2014-05-30T22:52:57Z Fizzixnerd: though I'm not sure what the "general opinion" is; my understanding was that CL is often written in a functional style
2014-05-30T22:52:57Z oGMo: lwm: CL isn't any given thing; thus, it's every given thing
2014-05-30T22:53:00Z drewc: clhs prog
2014-05-30T22:53:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog_.htm
2014-05-30T22:53:06Z drewc: lwm: ^
2014-05-30T22:53:10Z oGMo: Fizzixnerd: not that i've seen
2014-05-30T22:53:26Z oGMo: though there are functional-style systems etc if you want
2014-05-30T22:54:20Z drewc: Fizzixnerd: my understanding is the exact opposite ... CL is multi-paradigm, and written that way.
2014-05-30T22:54:39Z lwm: ah ok, so we can say that Lisp is not purely functional, but is multi-paradigm
2014-05-30T22:54:56Z drewc: lwm: "Common Lisp is the modern, multi-paradigm, high-performance, compiled, ANSI-standardized descendant of the long-running family of Lisp programming languages."
2014-05-30T22:54:57Z lwm: and not step on any toes ;)
2014-05-30T22:55:19Z nightfly: oGMo: alright, yeah. I'll probably do the latter
2014-05-30T22:55:39Z lwm: drewc: that about clears it all up
2014-05-30T22:55:49Z effy: i like the "modern" in the definition, sound kind of the same as countries with "democratic" in the name of the country :p
2014-05-30T22:55:57Z Fizzixnerd: ha
2014-05-30T22:56:09Z nyef: Any country with "democratic" in the name almost certainly isn't.
2014-05-30T22:56:22Z Fizzixnerd: I'm pretty sure that's his point
2014-05-30T22:56:26Z Fizzixnerd: their*
2014-05-30T22:56:31Z nyef: Fair enough.
2014-05-30T22:56:32Z oGMo: i prefer "lost technology of the ancients" myself (;
2014-05-30T22:56:32Z effy: ^
2014-05-30T22:56:32Z lwm: ha ...
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2014-05-30T22:57:44Z Fizzixnerd: I've always wondered why common lisp doesn't separate it's features using its own package feature more
2014-05-30T22:57:51Z Fizzixnerd: I guess it's all historical baggage
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2014-05-30T22:58:07Z nyef: Fizzixnerd: It was suggested, late in the ANSI process.
2014-05-30T22:58:30Z drewc: lwm: https://github.com/haskell-lisp/yale-haskell <--- fwiw
2014-05-30T22:58:32Z Fizzixnerd: nyef: imo, shame it didn't make it in
2014-05-30T22:58:33Z oGMo: you could always do it yourself
2014-05-30T22:59:08Z Fizzixnerd: oGMo: I don't feel like going through every symbol and catagorizing it
2014-05-30T22:59:09Z oGMo: the question is whether it actually provides any advantage vs wasted time
2014-05-30T22:59:24Z monod: Thank you for the quickest help ever had on IRC! Love programmers! <3 :D And cya!
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2014-05-30T22:59:42Z oGMo: Fizzixnerd: then individually figuring out which package to import when you want it? it's almost like a practical reason for not doing so ;)
2014-05-30T23:00:08Z Fizzixnerd: oGMo: Most other languages use module/package systems in an advantageous way
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2014-05-30T23:00:15Z drewc: oGMo, Fizzixnerd: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/ ??
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2014-05-30T23:01:11Z drewc: and of course, ASDF3's ASDF-PACKAGE-SYSTEM makes packages into systems . thanks to nyef and fare!
2014-05-30T23:01:12Z Fizzixnerd: jesus, 4k commits
2014-05-30T23:01:43Z lwm: drewc: 21 years ago ... woah
2014-05-30T23:02:29Z drewc: lwm: Lisp is the second oldest still in use, after all :)
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2014-05-30T23:03:52Z lwm: drewc: which begs the question for the oldest ...
2014-05-30T23:03:55Z drewc: and Common Lisp is multi-paradigm because it has/had to be... after all, it is what Lisps have/had in Common.
2014-05-30T23:04:09Z stassats: except that it doesn't look anything like the original Lisp
2014-05-30T23:04:09Z Fizzixnerd: Fortran?
2014-05-30T23:04:36Z jasom: stassats: and neither does modern fortran
2014-05-30T23:04:41Z p_l: Fizzixnerd: yes.
2014-05-30T23:04:41Z drewc: Fizzixnerd: correct.
2014-05-30T23:04:44Z jasom: or modern C for that matter
2014-05-30T23:04:44Z stassats: jasom: indeed
2014-05-30T23:05:04Z stassats: no more punch-card width related limits
2014-05-30T23:05:06Z p_l: jasom: modern C is much more familiar to K&R C on the first look, though
2014-05-30T23:05:11Z jasom: p_l: indeed
2014-05-30T23:05:22Z jasom: but C is a lot younger
2014-05-30T23:05:26Z drewc: or modern english compared to ye olde ...
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2014-05-30T23:06:22Z jasom: drewc: of course "ye olde" is called "modern english"; middle english is fairly unitelligable unless you also are very familiar with germanic languages
2014-05-30T23:07:03Z drewc: jasom: true dat.
2014-05-30T23:07:16Z jasom: Forrþrihht anan se time comm
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2014-05-30T23:10:33Z drewc: urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us to dæg  .... I wanted to use dæg because today is Frīġedæġ after all :)
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2014-05-30T23:11:40Z drewc: Venus Day to the Romanticized ones
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2014-05-30T23:14:54Z p_l: not "romanized"?
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2014-05-30T23:17:35Z drewc: p_l: no, because I said so in English, which is only 1/3 romanized ... but can certainly be Romanticized ... Keats!
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2014-05-30T23:21:15Z drewc: (if it was on topic, I could go into how Frīġedæġ is actually somewhat "romanized", as are the rest of the names really .. but I digress.)
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2014-05-30T23:41:24Z eskatrem: Hey, in common lisp (or in any lisp actually), is it possible to have a macro that has a pattern matching in its name?
2014-05-30T23:41:43Z Bicyclidine: example?
2014-05-30T23:42:03Z eskatrem: I want to do something like (defmacro print_<name> (print "`name"))
2014-05-30T23:42:10Z jasom: eskatrem: the name has to be a symbol
2014-05-30T23:42:18Z eskatrem: example?
2014-05-30T23:42:19Z Bicyclidine: not in lisp and as far as i know not in scheme
2014-05-30T23:42:37Z eskatrem: I'm cool with a symbol in the name
2014-05-30T23:42:52Z Bicyclidine: usually you'd just, you know, make that a parameter
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2014-05-30T23:43:04Z Bicyclidine: (defmacro printn (name ...) ...)
2014-05-30T23:43:24Z eskatrem: well
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2014-05-30T23:43:40Z eskatrem: what I really want to do is some kind of pattern matching for lists
2014-05-30T23:44:04Z Bicyclidine: Can you tell us what you're actually doing then
2014-05-30T23:44:28Z eskatrem: something like list_of_strings (or string list_of_strings)
2014-05-30T23:45:24Z eskatrem: I'm not sure I explain it properly, but for this particular example list_of_string is either a string, either a list that starts with a string, and the cdr is a list of string
2014-05-30T23:45:47Z eskatrem: so, '("a" "b" ("c" "c")) would be a list_of_strings
2014-05-30T23:45:49Z Bicyclidine: this explanation is hard to understand, yes.
2014-05-30T23:46:17Z jasom: eskatrem: http://paste.lisp.org/new  <-- paste an actual example of the code you want to write, and the result you want from running that code
2014-05-30T23:46:26Z eskatrem: well, basically I don't know how to define my pattern recursively
2014-05-30T23:46:44Z Bicyclidine: what do you want to /do/ with the pattern, though
2014-05-30T23:47:31Z eskatrem: Bicyclidine: Basically, I want to check some maths expressions
2014-05-30T23:47:55Z eskatrem: and see if they are of the type "k*x^n", where k and n are integers
2014-05-30T23:49:03Z Bicyclidine: Okay, so like you're given a string, and you want to determine k,x,n or else say it doesn't match?
2014-05-30T23:49:25Z eskatrem: no, not a string, a list
2014-05-30T23:49:50Z Bicyclidine: A list of what.
2014-05-30T23:49:51Z orthecreedence: ("k" "*" "x" "^" "n")?
2014-05-30T23:49:55Z eskatrem: so that would be '(* k (^ "x" n))
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2014-05-30T23:50:39Z eskatrem: of course, n and k can be integers, or stuff that would simplify into integers
2014-05-30T23:51:14Z Bicyclidine: well, no need for this to be a macro, first off. think of a function that takes this list structure and gets k,x,n out or not
2014-05-30T23:51:15Z orthecreedence: would optima not fit your use case?
2014-05-30T23:52:03Z eskatrem: Bicyclidine: no, because I want '(* (+ 1 2) (^ "x" (+ 2 3))) and all the likes to fit that pattern
2014-05-30T23:52:19Z eskatrem: orthecreedence: what's optima?
2014-05-30T23:52:24Z Bicyclidine: that has nothing to do with macros. you just want a recursive function
2014-05-30T23:52:33Z Bicyclidine: optima is a pattern-matching library for lisp
2014-05-30T23:52:43Z eskatrem: I'll check optima
2014-05-30T23:52:45Z orthecreedence: https://github.com/m2ym/optima
2014-05-30T23:53:25Z eskatrem: I know I could write a function for this particular case, but what I really want is to define a pattern that way:
2014-05-30T23:54:03Z eskatrem: (make-pattern _n '(operator *several* _n))
2014-05-30T23:54:28Z eskatrem: and then (match-pattern '(+ 1 2 3 (* 4 5)) _n)
2014-05-30T23:54:48Z eskatrem: maybe optima is the right thing for that
2014-05-30T23:54:56Z Bicyclidine: ok, i give up on understanding what you mean. i guess look at optima, and maybe also PAIP, which has a lot of stuff about recognizing and dealing with arithmetic expressions
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2014-05-30T23:55:06Z jasom: eskatrem: so you want self-recursive pattern matching?
2014-05-30T23:55:18Z jxv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-05-30T23:55:28Z eskatrem: jasom: YES
2014-05-30T23:56:00Z jasom: eskatrem: I would just shove symbols into a hash-table to store the patterns, and then have a single walker that matches against those symbols
2014-05-30T23:56:42Z Bicyclidine: that's the sort of thing PAIP goes over, except with an alist because old
2014-05-30T23:57:12Z eskatrem: yeah, I thought about that, but I want to be able to define patterns on the fly
2014-05-30T23:57:23Z Bicyclidine: so alter the hash table.
2014-05-30T23:57:34Z eskatrem: hmm yeah, that I could do
2014-05-30T23:58:13Z Bicyclidine: what paip does, to explain, is define an arithmetic simplifier, so e.g. there's a pattern to reduce (+ x 0) to x
2014-05-30T23:58:15Z eskatrem: yeah, thanks, I don't know why I haven't thought of that, Bicyclidine
2014-05-30T23:58:41Z Bicyclidine: and it keeps adding patterns since you can pretty much keep complicating simplification
2014-05-30T23:59:19Z eskatrem: I need to study seriously PAIP, I just read quickly couple of chapters
2014-05-30T23:59:49Z Bicyclidine: hopefully gives you a starting point for whatever you're doing, if nothing else
2014-05-31T00:00:16Z eskatrem: copying Norvig seems like a decent starting point
2014-05-31T00:00:31Z Bicyclidine: open source sure is nice
2014-05-31T00:00:56Z Bicyclidine: http://norvig.com/paip/
2014-05-31T00:01:19Z eskatrem: I was doing that in python, but I couldn't get away with the recursive pattern, so I thought the only way to get away with it would be a macro, so I came here
2014-05-31T00:01:29Z Bicyclidine: patmatch.lisp, probably
2014-05-31T00:01:40Z Bicyclidine: it's nothing to do with macros, i swear
2014-05-31T00:01:53Z eskatrem: I have a pdf version of that book
2014-05-31T00:02:15Z eskatrem: now I see that you are right
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2014-05-31T00:02:28Z eskatrem: can't understand why I didn't think of altering the hashmap that would store all the patterns
2014-05-31T00:04:07Z eskatrem: Bicyclidine: out of interest, did you study the whole PAIP?
2014-05-31T00:04:08Z jasom: now macros would let you do the pattern matching at macroexpand time on unquoted expressions, but that's just if you wanted to , say embed them in a DSL
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2014-05-31T00:20:22Z drewc:  my PAIP is signed, and I bought it at MIT Co-op :)
2014-05-31T00:21:06Z eskatrem: well, I wouldn't fly the Atlantic ocean just to get a copy of PAIP, even signed
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2014-05-31T00:23:53Z drewc flew farther than that to get his.
2014-05-31T00:24:12Z drewc: and it was not signed when I purchased it
2014-05-31T00:24:47Z drewc: But I did not fly there specifically to get the book either... I was working for a client who was located nearby.
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2014-05-31T00:27:43Z Xach: my Patterns of Software is signed
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2014-05-31T00:29:07Z drewc: Xach: Cool! I have all my lisp-related books signed, but not by him ... now I want one.
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2014-05-31T00:30:24Z drewc: and of course, should have little if nothing to do with lisp.
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2014-05-31T00:31:33Z eskatrem: drewc: where did you meet Norvig then?
2014-05-31T00:33:59Z drewc: eskatrem: at the work place in Boston  (actually Cambridge) ... I cannot remember why he was there, but on that trip I purchased my PAIP, and only met him for about 5 minutes, most of which was looking for a pen.
2014-05-31T00:34:36Z eskatrem: drewc: :)
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2014-05-31T00:36:14Z drewc: I met a number of higher-ups on those trips ... my hotel was looking right at MIT, and there were already a few at that company as well ... it was a good time :)
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2014-05-31T00:58:50Z Xach: I'll sign PCL for you
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2014-05-31T02:12:30Z drewc: Xach: I would like that :) my copy of Coders at Work is signed, but I think I gave away my signed PCL, so I need a new one!
2014-05-31T02:12:55Z drewc would go check, but he is a wee bit lazy today
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2014-05-31T02:33:16Z owl-v-: how is lisp-1 different compared to lisp-2? i'm reading wikipedia but i still have no clue.
2014-05-31T02:33:43Z Bike: owl-v-: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html
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2014-05-31T02:52:29Z owl-v-: i like lisp-1 way of calling function
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2014-05-31T02:54:09Z owl-v-: now i see why clojure is lisp-1.
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2014-05-31T02:58:24Z KaleidoL: clojure is what
2014-05-31T02:58:56Z KaleidoL: so i understand lisp but what the hell is lambda? it still looks like a procedure to me
2014-05-31T02:58:57Z owl-v-: clojure syntax is much closer to lisp-1
2014-05-31T02:59:11Z owl-v-: lol
2014-05-31T02:59:19Z KaleidoL: and what the hell is closure, is it the last }
2014-05-31T02:59:30Z owl-v-: lol -> "what the hell is lambda?"
2014-05-31T02:59:54Z KaleidoL: so how is it different than procedure
2014-05-31T03:00:13Z owl-v-: it is procedure
2014-05-31T03:01:05Z KaleidoL: um i was told lisp and procedure is not a good idea to think about
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2014-05-31T03:01:21Z KaleidoL: so i am misunderstanding it
2014-05-31T03:01:45Z KaleidoL: there is a way to do something like a procedure, but it is not using lambda word
2014-05-31T03:01:46Z owl-v-: vhdl is not a procedural language
2014-05-31T03:02:43Z owl-v-: verily is not a procedural lanugage
2014-05-31T03:03:07Z owl-v-: i don't know where javascript is fitting.
2014-05-31T03:03:26Z owl-v-: but lisp is procedural language.
2014-05-31T03:05:03Z owl-v-: because it's proceeding one line by one line just like asm, c, c++, java, python, c#, perl, shell, ruby, ...
2014-05-31T03:07:08Z owl-v-: omg i don't want to type FUNCALL over and over...
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2014-05-31T03:09:51Z owl-v-: is sbcl lisp-1 because i don't use FUNCALL when calling a function?
2014-05-31T03:10:15Z Bike: no
2014-05-31T03:10:25Z Bike: you have misunderstood the paper
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2014-05-31T03:11:51Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-05-31T03:25:28Z owl-v-: beach: Good ... day!
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2014-05-31T03:44:03Z beach: minion: cl-features
2014-05-31T03:44:03Z minion: cl-features: Features of Common Lisp. It is not one single feature that makes Common Lisp so great, but a combination of many of them. See: http://random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html
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2014-05-31T03:53:14Z beach: KaleidoL: [reading the logs] lambda is an operator for creating anonymous functions.
2014-05-31T03:53:17Z owl-v-: where can i get sbcl grammar from?
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2014-05-31T03:53:59Z beach: specbot clhs 2
2014-05-31T03:54:01Z Bike: section 2 or so of the clhs
2014-05-31T03:54:05Z Bike: clhs 2
2014-05-31T03:54:05Z specbot: Syntax: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_.htm
2014-05-31T03:54:17Z beach: thanks Bike
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2014-05-31T03:55:43Z jasom: owl-v-: 2.2 is the most important part
2014-05-31T03:56:35Z owl-v-: i was expecting something like >> https://engineering.purdue.edu/~milind/ece573/2013fall/project/grammar.txt
2014-05-31T03:57:02Z beach: KaleidoL: [reading more log entries] The usual definition of a closure is a function containing one or more captured variables.
2014-05-31T03:57:06Z jasom: owl-v-: yeah, most languages aren't specified that way
2014-05-31T03:57:31Z jasom: owl-v-: and even when they are, it's post-hoc, as the initial implementation was recursive decent most likely
2014-05-31T03:58:05Z Bike: CL isn't LR anything anyway
2014-05-31T03:58:08Z jasom: owl-v-: on top of that, the lisp reader is programmable, so there is no fixed grammar to describe it (though there is the standard IO syntax, for which you could generate a formal description)
2014-05-31T03:58:54Z jasom: owl-v-: out of curiousity are you a EE at Purdue?
2014-05-31T03:59:08Z owl-v-: was ECE at Purdue
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2014-05-31T03:59:34Z owl-v-: jasom: ^
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2014-05-31T03:59:48Z jasom was CS at Purdue
2014-05-31T03:59:55Z owl-v-: omg
2014-05-31T04:00:08Z owl-v-: hi jasom!
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2014-05-31T04:03:58Z jasom: owl-v-: you also run into things like #. which is part of the reader, and turing complete.
2014-05-31T04:04:30Z jasom: clhs #.
2014-05-31T04:04:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm
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2014-05-31T04:08:41Z owl-v-: jasom: tokens are in 2.3
2014-05-31T04:08:51Z jasom: owl-v-: you're right; tokenizing is 2.2
2014-05-31T04:09:03Z jasom: and macro characters are in 2.4 which is also important
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2014-05-31T04:11:37Z jasom: Now that I think about it, lisp is almost certainly ll(1) if you count things like #.(any syntactically valid lisp expression) as syntactically correct
2014-05-31T04:14:19Z beach: I think it was Paul Wilson who first pointed out to me the importance of viewing the Lisp syntax as having two levels: One is the reader level as described in chapter 2, the other is the syntax of special forms and macros defined in terms of Lisp data.
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2014-05-31T04:16:10Z jasom: beach: the reader generates what in other languages would be considered the parse tree.  If you think of it that way then the special forms &ct is semantics, not syntax.
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2014-05-31T04:16:37Z jasom: beach: but I can see the argument for saying ((kasjflaj)) is a syntax error
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2014-05-31T04:33:10Z owl-v-: jasom: why ((abc)) is a syntax error? if abc is a zero-argument function which returns a zero-argument function, it should work, right?
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2014-05-31T04:33:24Z Bike: not in lisp-2
2014-05-31T04:33:36Z Bike: you should really read that thing i linked you two hours ago
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2014-05-31T04:34:46Z jasom: owl-v-: in lisp-2 the operator is not evaluated
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2014-05-31T04:37:01Z owl-v-: oh no, ((my-fun1)) illegal function call.
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2014-05-31T04:38:22Z owl-v-: so, i have to do like >> (FUNCALL (my-fun1))
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2014-05-31T04:40:05Z jasom: right
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2014-05-31T04:52:47Z owl-v-: i see, ((my-fun1)) can confuse people. (fun call (my-fun1)) is much clear which i would expect a function is returned. hmm...
2014-05-31T04:54:22Z beach: owl-v-: It is not confusing, and it is perfectly legal in Scheme for instance.  It is just a consequence of Common Lisp being a "Lisp-2".
2014-05-31T04:55:57Z owl-v-: oh, then i wish FUNCALL was option. ((my-fun1)) was easier to read for me.
2014-05-31T04:56:17Z beach: owl-v-: Then you might use Scheme instead of Common Lisp.
2014-05-31T04:56:41Z owl-v-: i thought about that, too
2014-05-31T04:56:54Z beach: owl-v-: There is no point in wishing such things, just like there is no point in wishing that putting the verbs at the end of a phrase were optional in German.
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2014-05-31T05:00:08Z owl-v-: It is legal to omit subjects and objectives in languages like Korean and Jananese.
2014-05-31T05:01:09Z owl-v-: objects ^
2014-05-31T05:01:11Z beach thinks owl-v- failed to get his point.
2014-05-31T05:01:52Z owl-v-: don't worry, if i make my own lisp, it will be optional to use FUNCALL.
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2014-05-31T05:02:31Z Bike: different languages turn out to be different; world conceptual framework collapses
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2014-05-31T05:06:52Z beach: Bike: Yep.  It is amazing to me how many experienced programmers don't grasp this, so they don't see the importance of language-specific idioms.
2014-05-31T05:07:13Z owl-v-: Bike: that's why there is a thing called "backward compatibility"
2014-05-31T05:07:21Z Bike: maybe it's because so many of us are dumb american monoglots ;(
2014-05-31T05:07:31Z beach: Bike: Nah.
2014-05-31T05:08:11Z owl-v-: Bike: Nay
2014-05-31T05:08:17Z beach: Bike: It's because it is still considered acceptable for software developers to have no formal education, no experience, and no common sense.
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2014-05-31T05:11:18Z owl-v-: what common sense in such diversity?
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2014-05-31T05:13:02Z Bike: beach: maybe schools should just have a course on the history of esperanto.
2014-05-31T05:13:04Z beach: owl-v-: Common sense implies realizing that the most important purpose of programming is communicating with peers, so it becomes important to respect the shared culture of that community.
2014-05-31T05:14:03Z beach: Bike: Yeah, maybe so.  But to start with, software training programs should have relevant courses in software history and software engineering.
2014-05-31T05:14:23Z beach: Right now they can't because the teachers don't master these subjects either in general.
2014-05-31T05:15:13Z beach: Maybe the problem will fix itself in the next half century.
2014-05-31T05:19:12Z owl-v-: beach: yes, shared culture of the community. but community can diverge, whatever the reason is. for example (lisp-1, lisp-2) (East, West German) (North, South Korea)
2014-05-31T05:19:57Z owl-v-: ops. Germany ^
2014-05-31T05:22:43Z beach: owl-v-: So let me summarize: Because north and south Korea may culturally diverge, it is justified to wish for FUNCALL to be optional in Common Lisp?
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2014-05-31T05:23:49Z Bike: gotta love the internet.
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2014-05-31T05:25:16Z beach: owl-v-: Because programming communities are generally smaller than cultures that are geographically imposed, it is more common that an occasional individual can change the habits of some programming community.  I don't think you are one of the ones with the power to change those of the Common Lisp community, though.
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2014-05-31T05:27:07Z beach: In other words, the best initial action is: if you don't like the fact that the German language sometimes put verbs at the end of the phrase, it is better to learn a different language than trying to convince speakers of German that it is "confusing" to put the verbs at the end.
2014-05-31T05:27:47Z beach hopes that #lisp participants can substitute CL for German and FUNCALL for "verbs at the end".
2014-05-31T05:29:35Z owl-v-: beach: i didn't say i wish to have that feature in CL. i just want that feature in lisp.
2014-05-31T05:29:56Z beach: owl-v-: This channel is about Common Lisp.
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2014-05-31T05:30:37Z beach: So [to continue the analogy] you are essentially discussing your wish to move German verbs in a channel dedicated to the French language.
2014-05-31T05:32:26Z owl-v-: yes, in a sense. i don't have power to change the language, but i can hope to see new features in later versions.
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2014-05-31T05:42:49Z owl-v-: beach: for example, C language didn't have "//" for comment; However, it was very useful in C++ so C added that feature. it is now option to use "//" in C. The language did change.
2014-05-31T05:43:34Z Bike: why are these things always ridiculous
2014-05-31T05:43:44Z Bike: you'd think that as a bike i'd have some insight into bikeshed psychology, but no
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2014-05-31T05:46:48Z jasom: owl-v-: adding // for comment didn't break any existing code; (let ((list '(1 2))) (append (list 3 4) list))
2014-05-31T05:47:37Z jasom: Or when I use the REPL as a calculator I'm likely to do something like (* * *) to square the last result
2014-05-31T05:52:36Z beach is now convinced this discussion is futile, so he continues his work on Cleavir instead.
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2014-05-31T06:03:38Z owl-v-: jasom: that's quite interesting.
2014-05-31T06:04:38Z jasom: beach: what's cleavir
2014-05-31T06:04:59Z jasom: new name for clvm?
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2014-05-31T06:12:04Z owl-v-: jasom: does ((my-fun1)) breaks if implemented in CL?
2014-05-31T06:14:01Z nightfly: (funcall (my-fun1))?
2014-05-31T06:15:00Z owl-v-: nightfly: yes, but without 'fun call'
2014-05-31T06:16:02Z beach: jasom: http://metamodular.com/cleavir.pdf
2014-05-31T06:16:14Z beach: jasom: Yes, new name for CLVM.
2014-05-31T06:16:22Z nightfly: owl-v-: Asssuming ((my-fun1)) means call my-fun1 which returns a function value and call it, that won't work
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2014-05-31T06:20:50Z owl-v-: nightfly: in which implementation would hinder this ((my-fun1))?
2014-05-31T06:22:33Z nightfly: that would work in any lisp that doesn't have a separate namespace for functions
2014-05-31T06:23:50Z owl-v-: ah, the namespace.
2014-05-31T06:25:18Z owl-v-: is there advantage in performance with separated namespaces?
2014-05-31T06:26:39Z Bike: no, programs get stuck in a bottleneck of talking about namespaces for an hour
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2014-05-31T06:27:41Z nisstyre: owl-v-: there might have been in the 1970s
2014-05-31T06:28:04Z nisstyre: since separate alists means it takes less time to look up the value of a binding
2014-05-31T06:28:18Z nisstyre: on average
2014-05-31T06:29:04Z owl-v-: nisstyre: thanks
2014-05-31T06:29:55Z nisstyre: owl-v-: this does not apply to modern versions of lisp though
2014-05-31T06:30:10Z nisstyre: they don't even use alists to represent environments
2014-05-31T06:30:47Z owl-v-: ah?
2014-05-31T06:31:24Z nisstyre: you can do something called closure conversion that lets you optimize environment lookups
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2014-05-31T06:35:40Z nightfly adds that to his list of things to google
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2014-05-31T06:38:32Z joe-w-bimedina: does any one know what x y coordinates give a rotation angle of 360 degrees?
2014-05-31T06:39:08Z Bike: 360 degrees from what?
2014-05-31T06:39:20Z Bike: if it's the usual, any positive x and zero y.
2014-05-31T06:42:41Z joe-w-bimedina: I just need to get any 2 x y values that make a 360 rotation angle,  google had nada
2014-05-31T06:43:15Z owl-v-: joe-w-bimedina:  z-axis to represent rotation vector
2014-05-31T06:43:38Z joe-w-bimedina: don't need my function takes only x y
2014-05-31T06:43:45Z Bike: You realize that rotation by 360° is identity, yes?
2014-05-31T06:43:56Z Bike: But, seriously, (1,0) for example.
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2014-05-31T06:44:40Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thank you very much. thats perfect:)
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2014-05-31T06:45:42Z owl-v-: joe-w-bimedina: u can represent number of rotations with z-axis.
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2014-05-31T06:46:28Z joe-w-bimedina: perfect that really helps, I'm trying to learn a lot of math, and that is 1 off my list
2014-05-31T06:47:36Z Bike: well, here's a CL function for you then. (phase (complex foo bar)) gets you the "rotation angle" of (foo,bar) in rad, and (abs (complex foo bar)) will tell you the outward skew.
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2014-05-31T06:48:38Z joe-w-bimedina: funny you mentioned that, I'm writing an example for the c++ phase function.
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2014-05-31T06:51:29Z drmeister: Evenin' all
2014-05-31T06:51:52Z Bike: also, by euler's formula, (phase (exp (* #c(0 1) angle))) = angle (mod periodicity), so now you never have to ask again!!
2014-05-31T06:51:55Z Bike: very exciting
2014-05-31T06:52:54Z beach: owl-v-: You need to do this: M-x define-global-abbrev RET u RET you RET.
2014-05-31T06:53:17Z joe-w-bimedina: drmeister: Are you making something that makes it possible to wrap c++ code in Lisp, I heard you were,  Thank you Bike:
2014-05-31T06:53:18Z beach: hello drmeister!
2014-05-31T06:53:25Z drmeister: I'm implementing a weak-key-hash-table using the Boehm garbage collector.
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2014-05-31T06:53:50Z drmeister: Has anyone done anything like that before - I know I'm swimming way off shore here.
2014-05-31T06:53:54Z Bike: well, also floats. someday i'll actually have a value like 6.123233995736766d-17 that isn't just a perturbed zero and my world shall crumble.
2014-05-31T06:54:05Z drmeister: joe-w-bimedina: Yes.
2014-05-31T06:54:23Z joe-w-bimedina: does that anything to do with what I mentioned or did I get wrong info
2014-05-31T06:54:55Z drmeister: joe-w-bimedina: To what are you referring?
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2014-05-31T06:55:29Z Bike: boehm's api isn't documented online, is it
2014-05-31T06:55:36Z joe-w-bimedina: I heard you were making something like CFFI but for C++, in an implementation form
2014-05-31T06:56:13Z Bike: http://www.hboehm.info/gc/gcinterface.html oh there it is.
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2014-05-31T06:57:25Z drmeister: Bike: It is - they have a GC_register_disappearing_link call - but I read posts on using it to implement weak-link data structures and a lot of the posts expressed difficulty in implementing them.
2014-05-31T06:57:34Z owl-v-: beach: lol, that's convoluted too much.
2014-05-31T06:58:04Z joe-w-bimedina: Thanks for link Bike: and good luck drmeister:
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2014-05-31T06:59:34Z drmeister: You register a pointer to a pointer as a disappearing link and when the pointee is collected the disappearing link is set to NULL.    So you have pointers that are reset to NULL automagically - and my hash table will have to deal with entries that are pointers, unused-entries, deleted-entries and NULL-entries that Boehm splats.
2014-05-31T06:59:37Z Bike: gc_register_disappearing_link looks to be oriented towards cycle breaking rather than weakness
2014-05-31T07:00:18Z asdasdasdnnnn: n1=Random AU serverSERVER:irc.au.dal.net:6665-6668,7000GROUP:DALnet
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2014-05-31T07:00:19Z owl-v-: which one of lisps is easiest to implement?
2014-05-31T07:00:26Z drmeister: Bike: That is interesting - what is the difference?
2014-05-31T07:00:42Z Bike: beats me, i'm just looking through the header
2014-05-31T07:01:06Z Bike: oh, the documentation for GC_general_register_disappearing_link actually mentions weakness.
2014-05-31T07:01:23Z joe-w-bimedina: That sounds interesting. I'll have to figure out some of that means and see if it can help my library
2014-05-31T07:02:17Z joe-w-bimedina: out what some of that
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2014-05-31T07:03:16Z owl-v-: Bike: this? >> breaking: Broken every time;  weakness: potentially breaks or performs unexpected ways.
2014-05-31T07:03:40Z Bike: no, i did not just decide to quote a dictionary for no reason
2014-05-31T07:03:55Z owl-v-: *shrug*
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2014-05-31T07:04:01Z drmeister: I use a weak-key-hash-table to associate source-code information (file/line-number/column) with CONSes that contain code.   Then I use it to generate DWARF information and backtraces.
2014-05-31T07:04:25Z Bike: a weak pointer is a pointer that is not considered by the gc
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2014-05-31T07:05:56Z drmeister: I think of it as a weak pointer is a pointer that doesn't keep it's pointee alive and once it's pointee dies the weak pointer gets splatted to some value that indicates that the pointee died.
2014-05-31T07:06:55Z joe-w-bimedina: I have great GC but if this is revolutionary, I'll use it definately, Is it faster than finalizers and is it a full GC system
2014-05-31T07:07:06Z drmeister: The splatting is important - otherwise you might try and dereference it and segfault.
2014-05-31T07:07:30Z joe-w-bimedina: what is splatting
2014-05-31T07:07:38Z Bike: setting to NULL, probably.
2014-05-31T07:08:01Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm trying to get my Library into OpenCV...would this help?
2014-05-31T07:09:42Z drmeister: joe-w-bimedina: Would what hep?
2014-05-31T07:09:58Z drmeister: help
2014-05-31T07:10:43Z joe-w-bimedina: your code, Iwrap C++ OpenCV code in C so GC is an issue,  I solved it pretty good so far though
2014-05-31T07:10:57Z joe-w-bimedina: then in lisp
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2014-05-31T07:12:46Z owl-v-: joe-w-bimedina: i think there is a library in 'quick lisp'
2014-05-31T07:12:47Z drmeister: joe-w-bimedina: What I'm writing could help you two different ways (1) You could expose your C++ library in my Common Lisp and then run your code in my lisp (2) You could use my code to write a Common Lisp program that would parse C++ and automatically generate your C interface.
2014-05-31T07:13:22Z joe-w-bimedina: it wraps the deprecated C interface, mine wraps C++
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2014-05-31T07:13:39Z drmeister: My Lisp is still missing some things that full Common Lisps have (about 100 symbols) and it's slower than say SBCL.
2014-05-31T07:14:11Z drmeister: joe-w-bimedina: You write C to wrap your C++ - correct?
2014-05-31T07:14:14Z owl-v-: joe-w-bimedina: >> http://cliki.net/site/search?query=opencv
2014-05-31T07:14:52Z joe-w-bimedina: so your inventing a Lisp?? is it all the same functions as Lisp.  Yes the C binding are autogenerated when OpenCV is built
2014-05-31T07:16:18Z drmeister: I am writing my own Common Lisp - I'm not sure that I could have done it with another Lisp - like ECL.   ECL is hostile to C++ exception handling.
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2014-05-31T07:16:53Z drmeister: There's impedance mismatches all over the place between existing Common Lisps and C++.
2014-05-31T07:16:59Z joe-w-bimedina: owl-v: That only  has 40 functions and wraps the C interface, mine has almost 280 and wraps the C++, it a much better library, I know the author of cl-opencv and he is a great guy though so no disrespect
2014-05-31T07:17:26Z joe-w-bimedina: drmeister: will it be ans i
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2014-05-31T07:17:29Z joe-w-bimedina: ansi
2014-05-31T07:17:40Z drmeister: joe-w-bimedina: And you wrapped those 280 C++ functions yourself?
2014-05-31T07:17:40Z joe-w-bimedina: duh
2014-05-31T07:18:02Z joe-w-bimedina: sure did all by myself
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2014-05-31T07:18:23Z drmeister: Does OpenCV throw exceptions that you need to pass to Common Lisp?
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2014-05-31T07:18:58Z joe-w-bimedina: The C bindings are very safe, just ned to GC the new operators in it
2014-05-31T07:19:01Z joe-w-bimedina: need
2014-05-31T07:19:15Z drmeister: GC the new operators - I don't understand.
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2014-05-31T07:20:00Z drmeister: Oh - you mean you need to let CL manage the memory of some of the new objects that are created?
2014-05-31T07:20:24Z joe-w-bimedina: some of the class objects are allocated by new operators before being returned
2014-05-31T07:20:57Z joe-w-bimedina: yea I use with-macros tg finalizers and manual mm in my library
2014-05-31T07:21:03Z drmeister: I understand.
2014-05-31T07:21:16Z joe-w-bimedina: White_Flames idea if you know him, smart guy
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2014-05-31T07:22:49Z joe-w-bimedina: so then would by users use you Lisp implementation or would my library be implementation independent?
2014-05-31T07:23:41Z drmeister: It's up to you.   My CL isn't full featured yet - although I've written a compiler and a static analyzer and compile 70 CL source files that make up the CL runtime.
2014-05-31T07:24:34Z joe-w-bimedina: so  will it ""compete" with ansi common Lisp?...is it better?
2014-05-31T07:24:46Z joe-w-bimedina: save the 100 operators
2014-05-31T07:26:50Z drmeister: It has a very unique capability - you can easily interface C++ libraries with it and expose C++ classes and functions and the interface is transparent to C++ exceptions. It uses LLVM as the backend and it generates native code. As of last week it uses the Boehm garbage collector and very soon it will use the Memory Pool System from Ravenbrook.
2014-05-31T07:27:54Z drmeister: I think it merges the best of two worlds - Common Lisp (the best high level language) with C++ (one of the most used languages with lots of libraries).
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2014-05-31T07:29:56Z drmeister: For instance - I exposed the Clang compiler library within it - now I write C++ static analyzers in Common Lisp - it is a joy.
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2014-05-31T07:30:37Z joe-w-bimedina: I have almost no overhead wrapping C++ with C.  Would you recommend I use it still. If it has automatic GC that would be great. Would I use SBCL with it or is its own implementation.  Would I still use CFFI or does it have its own FFI
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2014-05-31T07:30:49Z drmeister: I can expose hundreds of C++ classes and functions in the matter of minutes to hours.
2014-05-31T07:31:57Z drmeister: It is it's own implementation if you use it in the first way I described above - in the second way you would write code that would generate your C wrapper functions - that you could use with any CL that has FFI.
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2014-05-31T07:33:19Z joe-w-bimedina: so in the first way  described above would you still need to wrap the C++ or could you just use C++ and Lisp side by side
2014-05-31T07:33:58Z joe-w-bimedina: My library does need to be implementation independent
2014-05-31T07:36:12Z drmeister: In the first way - say you have a C++ function foo(int x, int y, char c)
2014-05-31T07:36:35Z drmeister: int foo(int x, int y, char c);
2014-05-31T07:37:02Z joe-w-bimedina: is that the Lisp code
2014-05-31T07:37:13Z drmeister: You add a C++ source file to my Common Lisp source code and within it you put the following:
2014-05-31T07:38:08Z drmeister: package("OPENCV")[def("foo",&foo)]
2014-05-31T07:38:45Z drmeister: If you also had another function:  int bar(double x, double y)   you would say:
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2014-05-31T07:39:11Z drmeister: package("OPENCV")[def("foo",&foo),def("bar",&bar)]
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2014-05-31T07:39:54Z drmeister: That's all you do - the C++ compiler and a whole bunch of template programming I wrote builds interface code that exposes bar and foo to Common lisp.  These interface functions convert arguments and return values.
2014-05-31T07:41:00Z drmeister: (sigh) my wanna-be weak pointers are acting strong and appear to be keeping their pointee alive.
2014-05-31T07:41:25Z drmeister: Either that or the GC just hasn't collected their pointee yet.
2014-05-31T07:41:43Z joe-w-bimedina: I just got some money to pay my tutor, What link can I give him so we can sit down and figure out if this is a better way to go than what I have...or If I could steal more of your time, or both
2014-05-31T07:42:04Z joe-w-bimedina: got a lot of ?'s
2014-05-31T07:43:53Z drmeister: Ah - It's not ready yet - there are no public links to the project.
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2014-05-31T07:44:14Z drmeister: It's going to be a couple more weeks until I release it.   But it's weeks now rather than months.
2014-05-31T07:44:46Z drmeister: Watch reddit/r/lisp - I'll announce it there.
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2014-05-31T07:45:21Z drmeister: I'm going to sign off now - it's way way past my bedtime.
2014-05-31T07:45:28Z joe-w-bimedina: what is reddit/r/lisp?
2014-05-31T07:45:33Z joe-w-bimedina: last thing
2014-05-31T07:45:37Z drmeister: www.reddit.com/r/lisp
2014-05-31T07:45:48Z joe-w-bimedina: thank you very much
2014-05-31T07:45:50Z joe-w-bimedina: :)
2014-05-31T07:46:17Z drmeister: My pleasure.
2014-05-31T07:46:34Z joe-w-bimedina: I appreciate it greatly
2014-05-31T07:46:54Z drmeister: I hope you find it useful - in whatever capacity.
2014-05-31T07:47:07Z joe-w-bimedina: me too:)
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2014-05-31T07:48:50Z joe-w-bimedina: do you think drmeisters Lisp could obsolete my Library, should I really look into this e.g. is he a genius?
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2014-05-31T08:08:03Z nightfly: Not for people who don't use his particular implementation
2014-05-31T08:10:01Z joe-w-bimedina: he said "in the second way you would write code that would generate your C wrapper functions - that you could use with any CL that has FFI." is that a better way, I do intend to give CL the best CV library possible
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2014-05-31T08:10:49Z nightfly: Have you looked at https://github.com/rpav/c2ffi ?
2014-05-31T08:11:23Z joe-w-bimedina: is it better/different than CFFI?
2014-05-31T08:11:56Z nightfly: It generates wrappers cffi wrappers using clang to parse the c++
2014-05-31T08:12:19Z owl-v-: i thought lisp was a functional programming language >> "Lisp is not precisely a functional programming language, not in the the sense that Haskell and ML are functional programming language."
2014-05-31T08:12:35Z beach: owl-v-: You thought wrong.
2014-05-31T08:12:42Z nightfly: I've not successfully got it to build but use a library, https://github.com/lispgames/cl-sdl2, that had its bindings generated using it.
2014-05-31T08:13:08Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm getting a python generator built for that, The bindings will get generated when OpenCV is built
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2014-05-31T08:13:39Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks though, Id appreciate any/all advice:)
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2014-05-31T08:16:18Z joe-w-bimedina: I would love a Lisp generator though but I think for OpenCV it needs to be Python
2014-05-31T08:16:39Z owl-v-: beach: i was reading this >> http://chriskohlhepp.wordpress.com/metacircular-adventures-in-functional-abstraction-challenging-clojure-in-common-lisp/
2014-05-31T08:17:10Z owl-v-: and i don't understand what he meant by that.
2014-05-31T08:17:33Z beach: What he meant by what?
2014-05-31T08:17:34Z owl-v-: since i don't know anything about haskell and ML
2014-05-31T08:18:20Z owl-v-: beach; so, u mean lisp is not a functional programming language.
2014-05-31T08:18:44Z beach: owl-v-: You REALLY must quit using "u" for "you", or learn to use abbrevs like I said.
2014-05-31T08:18:57Z beach: owl-v-: Yes, I mean Lisp is not a functional programming language.
2014-05-31T08:19:20Z beach: owl-v-: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_programming
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2014-05-31T08:19:50Z beach: Though, that article says CL is a functional language.
2014-05-31T08:20:12Z beach: owl-v-: CL is considered to be a multi-paradigm programming language.
2014-05-31T08:20:51Z beach: owl-v-: Why is this important to you?  It is only a bunch of words.
2014-05-31T08:21:11Z beach: owl-v-: Are you trying to acquire cocktail-party knowledge?
2014-05-31T08:21:47Z beach: "Do you come here often?"  "Did you know that CL is not a functional programming language?" "Can I buy you a drink?"
2014-05-31T08:22:27Z therik: on the scale of functionality, I'd say CL is pretty functional
2014-05-31T08:22:55Z beach: therik: OK, I'll let you continue the discussion with owl-v- then.
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2014-05-31T08:23:06Z therik: beach: no no no it's ok
2014-05-31T08:23:09Z therik: I'm leaving anyway
2014-05-31T08:23:15Z beach: No need.
2014-05-31T08:24:51Z therik: what I meant, there's like this idea of black and white in functionality of languages
2014-05-31T08:24:57Z beach: I know.
2014-05-31T08:25:16Z therik: some languages are more functional than others, people seem to forget it after they figure out that haskell did go all the way
2014-05-31T08:25:17Z beach: But it is too early in owl-v-'s career to deal with such fine points.
2014-05-31T08:26:08Z beach: owl-v-: When people say "functional programming language", they usually mean "purely functional programming language", or something close to purely functional.  This means that computation is defined by functional composition, without side effects.
2014-05-31T08:26:17Z therik: you can still write pretty well functional code in lisp, it's not gonna have lazy evaluation and do all the cool stuff of haskell, but if you make functions without big sideeffects, in my eyes, that's functional programming
2014-05-31T08:26:42Z beach: therik: Sure, so let's have an argument that C is pretty functional too.
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2014-05-31T08:27:09Z therik: aw
2014-05-31T08:27:10Z beach: therik: It is true, especially if you use a GC like Boehm.
2014-05-31T08:27:12Z therik: I get your point
2014-05-31T08:27:30Z beach: But you'll confuse the hell out of people like owl-v-.
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2014-05-31T08:28:54Z therik: yea whatever
2014-05-31T08:29:03Z therik: it's cocktail party knowledge anyway
2014-05-31T08:29:03Z beach: owl-v-: As therik says, you can use a functional style in CL, but most CL programs are not written in a purely functional style.  An exception to the rule would be macro expanders that tend to use the functional style.
2014-05-31T08:29:09Z beach: Indeed.
2014-05-31T08:29:39Z beach: therik: I don't mean to offend you.  You are right of course.
2014-05-31T08:29:49Z beach: It's just a matter of pedagogy.
2014-05-31T08:29:50Z therik: beach: I'm not offended :P
2014-05-31T08:29:53Z beach: Good.
2014-05-31T08:30:39Z therik: I guess I wanted to imply that you were right about the cocktail partyness of that
2014-05-31T08:30:43Z therik: I really like that expression
2014-05-31T08:30:50Z beach: Thanks :)
2014-05-31T08:32:25Z beach: owl-v-: Another thing you need to understand is that this kind of knowledge ("cocktail-party knowledge") is dangerous because there is a "terminology war" going on.  The people who invented "functional language" wanted advocates of other languages to feel guilty because they then use a "dysfunctional language".  Similarly, people will say their language is "strongly typed", so that everyone else is "weak"
2014-05-31T08:32:48Z beach: Same thing with "dynamic language", who does not want to be dynamic?
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2014-05-31T08:33:19Z beach: owl-v-: So you should really learn a few dozen languages from different categories, learn the shared culture of each one.  Then we can talk.
2014-05-31T08:34:09Z therik: "few dozen"
2014-05-31T08:34:21Z beach: OK, one dozen would be enough.
2014-05-31T08:34:22Z therik: like 36 languages?
2014-05-31T08:34:39Z therik: I hope CL counts as 10 at least
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2014-05-31T08:52:45Z owl-v-: beach: most of time i used these in my previous projects >> assembly, c , c++, java, python, shell, vhdl, verilog.
2014-05-31T08:52:57Z owl-v-: And i also exposed to Scala, Clojure, Ruby, Javascript, Racket
2014-05-31T08:53:48Z owl-v-: beach: now, that's more than a dozen :-)
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2014-05-31T08:55:24Z beach: Good.  Then you should be able to look at the HyperSpec (wow, there is SETQ) to see that CL is not a functional language.
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2014-05-31T08:56:51Z teknokratsevilla: lisp is functional, of course
2014-05-31T08:57:06Z owl-v-: oh, wait. i have one more...  (abel)
2014-05-31T08:57:16Z beach: teknokratsevilla: Sure, in the sense of not being dysfunctional.
2014-05-31T08:57:48Z beach: teknokratsevilla: If that's not what you mean, then you shall have to define "functional programming language."
2014-05-31T08:58:01Z beach: Oh, let me guess.  We don't agree on what that means!
2014-05-31T08:58:22Z teknokratsevilla: functional in the sense of function-al
2014-05-31T08:58:55Z beach: teknokratsevilla: Define what that means.  When I say it, I mean "purely functional", i.e., without side effects.  I am guessing you mean something else.
2014-05-31T08:58:56Z owl-v-: is "functional language" misused just like what industry is using a world "cloud"?
2014-05-31T08:59:03Z teknokratsevilla: as a sequence of functions with the effects are in the arguments of functions
2014-05-31T08:59:19Z beach: teknokratsevilla: Possible or must?
2014-05-31T08:59:25Z therik: purely functional =/= functional
2014-05-31T08:59:42Z therik: imo the word "purely" is not just waste of bytes
2014-05-31T08:59:55Z teknokratsevilla: every program keeps the "state"  of the program somewhere
2014-05-31T09:00:12Z teknokratsevilla: the difference in functional programming is that the state is passed from function to function
2014-05-31T09:00:18Z teknokratsevilla: you can't have a stateless program
2014-05-31T09:00:26Z beach: teknokratsevilla: That's not the point.  The point is whether that state is available to explicit manipulation by the programmer.
2014-05-31T09:01:10Z beach: teknokratsevilla: I didn't say "stateless"  I said "no side effects [available for the programmer]"
2014-05-31T09:01:41Z beach: teknokratsevilla: If "functional language" does not mean absence of side effects available to the programmer, then the term becomes meaningless because then pretty much every language is functional.
2014-05-31T09:02:07Z beach: teknokratsevilla: But I am willing to use your definition when I discuss with you as long as you tell me what it is.
2014-05-31T09:02:24Z beach: teknokratsevilla: "A language that has the concept of a function"?
2014-05-31T09:02:42Z beach: Fine, then every language I know is functional.
2014-05-31T09:02:54Z beach: No wait, not Scheme, because they call it "procedure".
2014-05-31T09:03:37Z oleo: morning
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2014-05-31T09:05:40Z joe-w-bimedina: How would I convert x(I) into lisp, is it (* x I)
2014-05-31T09:06:07Z oleo: what is x(l) ?
2014-05-31T09:06:14Z owl-v-: to me, asking what is 'functional programming language' is like asking what is 'embedded system' because i have no f*ing clue where to draw a like between 'embedded system' and 'non-embedded system'
2014-05-31T09:06:14Z oleo: x of l ?
2014-05-31T09:06:43Z joe-w-bimedina: its from this statement The angle estimation accuracy is about 0.3 degrees. When x(I)=y(I)=0
2014-05-31T09:06:52Z joe-w-bimedina: "The angle estimation accuracy is about 0.3 degrees. When x(I)=y(I)=0"
2014-05-31T09:07:07Z oleo: so x is a function of l
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2014-05-31T09:08:29Z joe-w-bimedina: The whole thing is from this link, trying to lispify some doc. -> http://docs.opencv.org/trunk/modules/core/doc/operations_on_arrays.html?highlight=phase#phase
2014-05-31T09:08:33Z owl-v-: ops, typo.... like -> line
2014-05-31T09:11:16Z joe-w-bimedina: not sure I understand " so x is a function of l"
2014-05-31T09:12:22Z therik: ; Evaluation aborted on #<SB-SYS:MEMORY-FAULT-ERROR {DF32521}>.
2014-05-31T09:12:49Z therik: this looks scary
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2014-05-31T09:14:19Z oleo: look at absdiff section
2014-05-31T09:14:24Z oleo: I is explained there
2014-05-31T09:15:00Z oleo: where I is a multi-dimensional index of array elements. In case of multi-channel arrays, each channel is processed independently.
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2014-05-31T09:17:29Z joe-w-bimedina: at absdiff is dst multiplied by (I) or how are they related
2014-05-31T09:17:30Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: I am guessing I is a complex number or a 2D vector.
2014-05-31T09:17:59Z joe-w-bimedina: slightly lacking in my equations
2014-05-31T09:18:15Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: So x(I) is the x component of the vector.
2014-05-31T09:18:25Z oleo: jep
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2014-05-31T09:19:15Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: You can skip all that in CL because it has complex number natively.
2014-05-31T09:19:23Z oleo: x is an array I is an index
2014-05-31T09:19:43Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks for researching that for me guys:)
2014-05-31T09:20:32Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: They are using two parallel arrays, x and y, one for the x coordinates and one for the y coordinates.  In CL you would not do it that way.
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2014-05-31T09:21:39Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: In CL you would probably rather use a single vector of complex numbers.
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2014-05-31T09:22:48Z joe-w-bimedina: Thats the OpenCV part, I know I could use Lisp phase but trying to make it complete, I am going to use as much Lisp as possible but try to integrate it perfectly,
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2014-05-31T12:27:37Z Poenikatu: Hello. I've just looked up function position in the CLHS and I reckon that description uses leftmost when it means rightmost and vice versa. Am I wrong?
2014-05-31T12:28:28Z Poenikatu: Surely, if from-end is FALSE, it is the leftmost item which is found.
2014-05-31T12:28:49Z stassats: it's using leftmost and rightmost right, but true and false are mixed up
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2014-05-31T12:29:55Z Poenikatu: I'll send a bug report to LispWorks
2014-05-31T12:30:11Z stassats: don't bother
2014-05-31T12:30:17Z Xach: LispWorks does not modify the CLHS.
2014-05-31T12:30:19Z Poenikatu: stassats: Why not?
2014-05-31T12:30:28Z Xach: Other than cosmetically.
2014-05-31T12:30:30Z stassats: because it's a book, you can't modify books
2014-05-31T12:30:30Z Poenikatu: It's their publication
2014-05-31T12:30:47Z stassats: books only have errata or new editions
2014-05-31T12:30:49Z Xach: Poenikatu: it is the HTML conversion of a standards document. The error is in the standard.
2014-05-31T12:31:06Z Poenikatu: Xach: Good point.
2014-05-31T12:31:07Z Xach: They change the structure and style but not the content.
2014-05-31T12:31:27Z Xach: Poenikatu: there is a cliki page that tracks errat ain the spec
2014-05-31T12:31:35Z Poenikatu: That's a pity. It's quite clear
2014-05-31T12:31:36Z Xach: proposed ansi revisions and clarifications or similar
2014-05-31T12:31:55Z Xach: http://www.cliki.net/proposed%20ansi%20revisions%20and%20clarifications
2014-05-31T12:31:57Z Poenikatu: Do you have the URL for the cliki
2014-05-31T12:32:29Z Xach: Given above.
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2014-05-31T12:33:29Z stassats: i find it amusing that http://cliki.net/Issue%20PROG2-RETURN-VALUE has a "Discussion" section which contains "Bruno Haible says: I agree that PROG2 should return the primary value of the second form."
2014-05-31T12:33:32Z stassats: gee, does somebody not agree?
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2014-05-31T12:34:52Z Krystof: stassats: in standardese it's vaguely important to record agreement even when it's obvious
2014-05-31T12:35:29Z stassats: that's more copy-editing-ese
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2014-05-31T13:03:00Z isis__ is now known as therik
2014-05-31T13:03:17Z therik: how do I force quicklisp to recompile package?
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2014-05-31T13:04:15Z therik: it keeps complaining about undefined variable, but I removed that variable alltogether and saved the file.. I tried restarting inferior lisp, ql:quickload the package again and nothing changes
2014-05-31T13:04:33Z therik: it takes just split second to load that package and if I run it it keeps complaining about that variable
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2014-05-31T13:06:01Z _death: you could rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp
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2014-05-31T13:16:05Z solidus_: trying to write a macro that replaces function calls, it doesn't seem to do anything and i have no idea why: http://hastebin.com/otuwurogiy.vhdl
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2014-05-31T13:27:21Z therik: ty _death
2014-05-31T13:28:22Z ggole: solidus_: pull the substitution logic out of the macro and test it
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2014-05-31T13:28:44Z ggole: (And then just call subst, but figure out your mistake first.)
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2014-05-31T13:31:48Z oleo: solidus: my approach was http://hastebin.com/uvirirufav.lisp
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2014-05-31T13:45:54Z oleo: solidus: see also http://hastebin.com/zowuqijici.lisp
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2014-05-31T13:56:16Z malice: Hello, in my book it looks like CL's debugger is interactive, so that you can type in several things and get output that you want(e.g. type in variable name to get its value)
2014-05-31T13:56:38Z malice: However, I'm using SBCL, and debugger there only allows me a predefined set of options to choose.
2014-05-31T13:56:51Z malice: I can't write var's name. Is there a way to get debugger to work like in the book?
2014-05-31T13:57:05Z stassats: examining variables is one of the predefined options
2014-05-31T14:00:45Z phadthai: also make sure you have a high enough OPTIMIZE DEBUG level
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2014-05-31T14:21:41Z oconnore: malice: you might want to check out SLIME's debugger in emacs.
2014-05-31T14:21:43Z pjb: minion: memo for owl-v-: Lisp is the only language that you can change yourself!  If you want to add // comments to lisp, just do it, here's nothing easier to do (with reader macros).
2014-05-31T14:21:43Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell owl-v- when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-05-31T14:22:16Z oGMo: not the _only_ language heh
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2014-05-31T14:41:39Z drmeister: Watching garbage collection is very illuminating - I had no idea I was creating so many strings from pathnames.
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2014-05-31T14:42:25Z oGMo: heh
2014-05-31T14:43:04Z oGMo: yeah if you can profile your consing it's pretty helpful
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2014-05-31T14:48:44Z drmeister: I'm trying to watch Boehm disappearing links disappear in a weak-key-hash-table I'm implementing - when I log string finalization calls (I know - strings shouldn't finalize - I'll reimplement std::string)  I get a flood of log messages of everything but my strings (sigh)
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2014-05-31T15:15:50Z noncom|2: what's the best CL for windows now?
2014-05-31T15:16:24Z noncom|2: (free)
2014-05-31T15:16:40Z Xach: Clozure CL.
2014-05-31T15:16:40Z |3b| would try ccl, maybe sbcl
2014-05-31T15:19:02Z malice: Hey, I asked some time ago(hour or so) about debugger in CL, but had to go afk
2014-05-31T15:19:14Z malice: phadthai said something about high enough OPTIMIZE DEBUG level
2014-05-31T15:19:18Z malice: How can I check it/change it?
2014-05-31T15:19:34Z malice: stassats, I don't see it in options.
2014-05-31T15:19:39Z malice: I use SLIME + SBCL
2014-05-31T15:20:23Z noncom|2: cool, i'll check these out
2014-05-31T15:20:32Z noncom|2: so, and the IDE would be emacs + slime, right?
2014-05-31T15:21:00Z noncom|2: i mean sure emacs, but no other plugin than slime
2014-05-31T15:21:46Z stassats: malice: then you are not using the SBCL debugger, and you should see variables directly in the backtrace
2014-05-31T15:22:13Z malice: stassats, Okay, thanks. I'll check it out now
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2014-05-31T15:29:30Z malice: stassats, I see now difference.
2014-05-31T15:29:52Z malice: However, I don't see all vars in slime's debugger
2014-05-31T15:30:22Z stassats: they may not exists
2014-05-31T15:32:21Z malice: hmm... Okay...
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2014-05-31T15:36:44Z Vivitron: noncom|2: slime is the main thing. Some like paredit too. There are also ways to enable looking up a symbol in the hyperspec with a hotkey from emacs.
2014-05-31T15:40:53Z noncom|2: to me paredit is a must (coming from clojure) :)
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2014-05-31T15:41:06Z noncom|2: what can you say about Lisp Cabinet?
2014-05-31T15:41:35Z noncom|2: my primary work OS is Windows, and Lisp Cabinet is said to be a good thing for that..
2014-05-31T15:41:37Z stassats: is it recent enough => give it a try; no? => don't try it
2014-05-31T15:42:17Z noncom|2: yeah, i will try, but the diversity of all lisp-related things is so great so that i think about asking for some opinions
2014-05-31T15:42:45Z stassats: lisp-cabinet is for kids, so not many people here use it
2014-05-31T15:42:54Z pjb: Relativity is 110 years old.  not recent enough.  Don't use it.  Throw away your router! (laser in optic fiber), throw away your smart phone (gps, etc).
2014-05-31T15:43:12Z stassats: can i throw away pjb? kthx
2014-05-31T15:43:50Z noncom|2: i am relatively new to lisp so i think asking is ok since comparing to other languages, the amount of related environments and other stuff is huge
2014-05-31T15:44:54Z noncom|2: heh probably i can be considered a lisp kid :D
2014-05-31T15:45:23Z noncom|2: well, ok, thanks for the advices!
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2014-05-31T15:48:30Z _JokerDoom: Any reason I should learn common lisp over clojure?
2014-05-31T15:49:06Z stassats: _JokerDoom: you won't get shunned from #lisp if you learn common lisp
2014-05-31T15:49:13Z _JokerDoom: Hahaha
2014-05-31T15:49:23Z Shinmera: _JokerDoom: smugness
2014-05-31T15:49:32Z _JokerDoom: Wait
2014-05-31T15:49:34Z _JokerDoom: For which one?
2014-05-31T15:50:16Z _JokerDoom: Smugness for common lisp?
2014-05-31T15:50:29Z Shinmera: Well, I suppose one can be equally smug about anything, but I guess it's a bit easier with CL.
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2014-05-31T15:51:30Z _JokerDoom: I feel like smugness should apply more to the old order, as it has been established longer
2014-05-31T15:52:15Z _JokerDoom: but technologically speaking how hard is the transition from one to the other?
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2014-05-31T15:53:26Z owl-v-: interesting.... i have never used (puts) in C.
2014-05-31T15:53:26Z minion: owl-v-, memo from pjb: Lisp is the only language that you can change yourself!  If you want to add // comments to lisp, just do it, here's nothing easier to do (with reader macros).
2014-05-31T15:53:56Z Denommus: _JokerDoom: Common Lisp has a native compiler
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2014-05-31T15:54:26Z _JokerDoom: but Denommus isn't the JVM pretty portable to many systems?  And often it performs very, very well, right?
2014-05-31T15:54:38Z owl-v-: minion: help
2014-05-31T15:54:38Z minion: There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
2014-05-31T15:55:12Z Denommus: _JokerDoom: Common Lisp also has a compiler that can be embedded in C programs
2014-05-31T15:55:15Z owl-v-: minions: memos: okey :-)
2014-05-31T15:55:30Z Denommus: _JokerDoom: (or C++ programs, as a consequence)
2014-05-31T15:55:39Z Denommus: _JokerDoom: also, Common Lisp has a pretty advanced object system
2014-05-31T15:55:40Z _JokerDoom: Denommus, oh now that is pretty nifty, I have to admit, that is extremely attractive to me
2014-05-31T15:56:00Z _JokerDoom: Denommus, what's the footprint like for that embedded compiler/interpreter?
2014-05-31T15:56:11Z owl-v-: minions: memos
2014-05-31T15:56:23Z beach: owl-v-: There is only one minion.
2014-05-31T15:56:45Z noncom|2: _JokerDoom: must say that i have implemented an OO system in clojure too
2014-05-31T15:56:46Z Denommus: _JokerDoom: its interpreter is a bit slower than the native compiler, but it can translate the code to C and call your system's compiler to have faster programs
2014-05-31T15:56:46Z owl-v-: beach: i don't know how to use minion
2014-05-31T15:56:56Z owl-v-: :P
2014-05-31T15:57:06Z Denommus: _JokerDoom: it's also better to use Common Lisp than Clojure as a scripting language, because the load time is faster
2014-05-31T15:57:09Z beach: owl-v-: Use singular for starters.  Then use /msg minion to figure out the rest.
2014-05-31T15:57:57Z _JokerDoom: Denommus, yeah, I think you've sold me, I do embedded work, and the ability to compile a lisp program to C and embed it within another program, that's hugely attractive to me
2014-05-31T15:58:27Z Denommus: _JokerDoom: you should look for ECL, then :)
2014-05-31T15:58:29Z beach: _JokerDoom: I don't know Clojure, but judging from the web pages, I would think the programming style in Clojure would be totally different from the usual one of Common Lisp.
2014-05-31T15:58:55Z Denommus: beach: Clojure is more focused on functional programming
2014-05-31T15:58:55Z beach: [about the transition from one to the other]
2014-05-31T15:59:25Z beach: Denommus: Yes, I know.  That's what I am trying to tell _JokerDoom.
2014-05-31T15:59:47Z Denommus: and I honestly hate Clojure's namespace system
2014-05-31T16:00:17Z Denommus: though Common Lisp's package system is not really that good compared to, say, Rust's modules or ML family's modules
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2014-05-31T16:03:34Z mbrock: generally, though the language permits very nice abstractions, Common Lisp culture has often stayed rather close to the metal, e.g., by providing REPL access to get a function's native assembly, by providing good support for image-based evaluation, etc
2014-05-31T16:04:08Z _JokerDoom: image based evaluation?
2014-05-31T16:04:39Z mbrock: like working with restartable core dumps, basically. you can easily suspend and save an entire evaluation context
2014-05-31T16:05:00Z mbrock: (with at least the common compilers I know of)
2014-05-31T16:05:27Z Denommus: _JokerDoom: you have a running process and you send your definitions to that process. Later you can save that process as an image, which is the whole runtime plus the definitions you sent
2014-05-31T16:05:36Z Denommus: _JokerDoom: Clojure also has a REPL, so the workflow is similar
2014-05-31T16:05:45Z _JokerDoom: Woah, that's pretty interesting
2014-05-31T16:05:48Z owl-v-: i should start using 'double' instead of 'float' since i have 64bit processor?
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2014-05-31T16:07:39Z stassats: this is orthogonal
2014-05-31T16:09:19Z noncom|2: i would say that clojure is only preferable over cl if you're living on java ecosystem and is determined to use jvm
2014-05-31T16:09:45Z stassats: we have an implementation for that!
2014-05-31T16:09:47Z phadthai: owl-v-: if you mean from C, then double usually already used 64-bit floating point, often helped by a math coprocessor; in Lisp on the other hand, a double-float could be larger than 64-bit depending on the implementation, I think
2014-05-31T16:10:28Z noncom|2: stassats: yeah :) but for jvm clojure is really *the* lisp. it is because it is tailored for jvm
2014-05-31T16:10:35Z _JokerDoom: Our network applications are in Java, so clojure would be nice there
2014-05-31T16:10:52Z owl-v-: phadthai: in my macbook-air, float is 32bit and double is 64bit
2014-05-31T16:11:08Z oGMo: noncom|2: i'd rather abcl ;p
2014-05-31T16:11:18Z Denommus: noncom|2: Clojure also has an implementation for JavaScript
2014-05-31T16:11:31Z phadthai: owl-v-: I mean that double was probably already 64-bit on 32-bit systems since a while, yes
2014-05-31T16:11:56Z noncom|2: Denommus: yeah, clojurescript.. its for the webies
2014-05-31T16:11:59Z owl-v-: phadthai: yes
2014-05-31T16:12:47Z _JokerDoom: but Common Lisp seems to have benefits in other domains for me, particularly in embedded, does anyone know the system requirements of using ECL on like an small ARM - how lean can it get?
2014-05-31T16:13:40Z phadthai: _JokerDoom: the gc heap can be configured and would generally be the part needing the most memory resources
2014-05-31T16:14:09Z _JokerDoom: Furthermore, is there something like a freestanding flag for it?
2014-05-31T16:14:28Z phadthai: but in terms of software requirements, ECL depends on gmp, boehm-gc, libffi
2014-05-31T16:14:35Z phadthai: and libc
2014-05-31T16:14:39Z _JokerDoom: ok
2014-05-31T16:14:55Z _JokerDoom: I'll just start digging through the docs
2014-05-31T16:15:03Z noncom|2: _JokerDoom: i think that there is no question about choosing which to know - clojure or cl - both are great and both have their own advantages and usage cases. i would say that knowing clojure is a must if you're lisping since it is developing very quickly and conqures the market. knowing cl is very cool since it has much much to offer in its own domain
2014-05-31T16:15:25Z phadthai: you could compile dynamic or static programs with it, if that's what you mean by freestanding
2014-05-31T16:15:38Z noncom|2: that's why i'm also starting to learn cl, already programming with clojure for 2+ yrs
2014-05-31T16:16:18Z phadthai: but at least not without effort, you can't remove the dependency on libc and those libraries from ECL-compiled software
2014-05-31T16:18:05Z beach: If I were the manager of commercial software projects, I would make a serious risk analysis before deciding to use a single-implementation/single-vendor language without any international standard.
2014-05-31T16:18:09Z noncom|2: _JokerDoom: if you're to embed *a* lisp on a small ARM, i'd look for scheme. like tinyscheme.. in case if you really need it tiny
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2014-05-31T16:27:47Z _JokerDoom: noncom|2, ty for the advice I will look into it
2014-05-31T16:28:03Z _JokerDoom: beach, which language are you referring to?
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2014-05-31T16:28:42Z beach: I was referring to Clojure.  But maybe it does have an international standard,  I haven't been following it.
2014-05-31T16:29:16Z stassats: does common lisp have an international standard?
2014-05-31T16:29:26Z beach: Yes, ANSI.
2014-05-31T16:29:34Z p_l: stassats: well, not an ISO one, but ANSI is acceptable reference
2014-05-31T16:29:40Z stassats: i thought that meant _American National_
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2014-05-31T16:30:06Z beach: That's beside the point.  The point is that the standard is edited by a vendor-independent recognized standard organization.
2014-05-31T16:30:06Z stassats: and that nobody outside of US really worked on ANSI CL
2014-05-31T16:30:33Z beach: The key here is independence.
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2014-05-31T16:32:57Z beach: I am not saying that one should avoid languages without such standards at all cost.  I am just saying that one might have to evaluate the risk of having to keep in-house programming language and compiler specialists, or of having to rewrite the software if the single vendor goes bust, changes the definition of the language, etc.
2014-05-31T16:33:36Z beach: This happened with Java at some point.  Was it between 1.1 and 1.2?
2014-05-31T16:33:40Z beach doesn't remember.
2014-05-31T16:34:14Z Xach: the gang of five email archive is a pretty fascinating look into the early CL effort
2014-05-31T16:34:35Z Xach: they thought they had a completely private channel and were candid about who they wanted to block out and who they had to coddle
2014-05-31T16:35:59Z beach: Yeah, pretty sordid stuff.
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2014-05-31T16:38:44Z Krystof: I seem to remember that ANSI CL has an ISO denomination as well
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2014-05-31T16:39:50Z beach: It is not just because a private company has "American" or "International" in its name that it is more or less credible, though.
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2014-05-31T16:40:06Z stassats: is that why many commercial programs used MOTIF?
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2014-05-31T16:41:34Z stassats: and CL implementations provide many extensions which are not standardized and without which it's hard to write real world applications
2014-05-31T16:42:05Z beach: Yep, all part of the risk analysis.
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2014-05-31T16:48:51Z gniourf: hunchentoot noob problem here: why does this http://paste.lisp.org/display/142745 yields a 404 when I point my browser to localhost:4242/hello.html ?
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2014-05-31T16:53:36Z stassats: gniourf: try easy-acceptor instead
2014-05-31T16:54:08Z gniourf: sure I can use easy-acceptor... but is there any obvious mistake I made there?
2014-05-31T16:54:16Z stassats: you didn't use easy-acceptor
2014-05-31T16:54:20Z gniourf: :D
2014-05-31T16:54:32Z gniourf: is it mandatory to use easy-acceptor??
2014-05-31T16:54:42Z stassats: no
2014-05-31T16:55:43Z gniourf: mmhhh
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2014-05-31T16:57:26Z gniourf: both tutorials I had a look at (Adam Peterson's and Matthew Snyder's) don't mention easy-acceptor. So I thought I could go without
2014-05-31T16:57:37Z stassats: they are too old
2014-05-31T16:57:51Z gniourf: do you know any up-to-date tutorial?
2014-05-31T16:58:06Z stassats: here's an easy teen age New York version of hello-world: http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/#start
2014-05-31T16:59:08Z gniourf: sure I had a look at this one too
2014-05-31T17:01:06Z stassats: it happens to work
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2014-05-31T17:01:55Z gniourf: yes indeed...
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2014-05-31T17:25:28Z therik: is there a way to control quicklisp's compiling? sometimes I (ql:quickload :x) and it recompiles all the dependencies, other times it does not
2014-05-31T17:25:47Z Xach: therik: that is up to asdf.
2014-05-31T17:26:10Z Xach: I think it depends, too, on which version of asdf is involved. I think things get better with newer ones
2014-05-31T17:27:19Z pjb: do: rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp  # between each ql:quickload so that it recompiles all the time.
2014-05-31T17:27:19Z minion: pjb, memo from owl-v-: okey :-)
2014-05-31T17:27:23Z pjb: You can control it!
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2014-05-31T17:52:13Z therik: I've got a trouble, trying to compile weblocks-test to be able to use weblocks-test:with-request macro and every time I try to compile it, it stops here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142746
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2014-05-31T17:52:44Z therik: it just stops there, top shows that sbcl takes lot of memory but no cpu power, no error, nothing
2014-05-31T17:52:54Z stassats: and at which function is it?
2014-05-31T17:53:23Z therik: that msg on pastebin is result of (ql:quickload :weblocks-test :verbose t)
2014-05-31T17:54:15Z therik: stassats: how can I find out? last thing it says is ; compiling (DEFTEST-HTML RENDER-WIDGET-BODY-DATAGRID-3 ...)....................
2014-05-31T17:54:23Z stassats: by interrupting it?
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2014-05-31T17:55:24Z Bicyclidine: i had sbcl hang on a compilation once, i fixed it by breaking up the function (it was like, at least a hundred lines of straight line code, i think)
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2014-05-31T17:56:09Z therik: stassats: M-x slime-interrupt does nothing
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2014-05-31T17:58:37Z therik: sbcl process is absolutely still, just taking up 25% of memory, I don't get it
2014-05-31T17:58:51Z therik: and doesn't respond to anything
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2014-05-31T17:59:07Z stassats: you didn't look in *inferior-lisp*, did you?
2014-05-31T18:00:15Z therik: whoah, thanks stassats
2014-05-31T18:00:26Z therik: Heap exhausted during garbage collection: 456 bytes available, 520 requested.
2014-05-31T18:03:51Z Krystof: replacing one problem with a different one :-/
2014-05-31T18:05:06Z therik: I think I can figure this one out
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2014-05-31T18:21:10Z therik: there's some leak there, it goes well on about 300m memory, then it entered (deftest-html render-widget-body-datagrid-3 and inflated to 1024 and crashed again
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2014-05-31T18:28:41Z stassats: just increase your dynamic space size
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2014-05-31T18:29:56Z therik: I did double it
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2014-05-31T18:41:49Z therik: it looks like some bad leak, there's stack frame just before crash, if anyone's interested http://paste.lisp.org/display/142747
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2014-05-31T18:42:26Z owl-v-: this looks like Clojure... >> http://digitalmind.io/post/hy-lisp/
2014-05-31T18:43:44Z owl-v-: no, not really..
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2014-05-31T18:47:17Z drewc: owl-v-: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-expression <--- just because clojure has sexps does not mean that anything with sexps look like clojure, unless it also looks like any other lisp with similar sexp syntax as well... in which case, why do you care?
2014-05-31T18:48:09Z owl-v-: but,  nice try.
2014-05-31T18:50:09Z owl-v-: drewc: at first glance, the syntax looked like clojure, but the more i see the code, they look different.
2014-05-31T18:50:49Z drewc: owl-v-: "just because clojure has sexps does not mean that anything with sexps look like clojure".
2014-05-31T18:51:40Z pjb: clojure is not on topic in #lisp.
2014-05-31T18:51:45Z drewc: and, coming from a CL point of view, syntax is completely changeable.
2014-05-31T18:53:15Z pjb: therefore irrelevant.
2014-05-31T18:53:22Z owl-v-: irrelevant
2014-05-31T18:53:32Z pjb: Indeed.
2014-05-31T18:53:46Z pjb: owl-v-: so stop talking for nothing. Go write some lisp code!
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2014-05-31T19:04:05Z drewc: owl-v-: (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable))) (set-macro-character #\[ (lambda (s r) (read-delimited-list #\] s r))) (set-macro-character #\] (get-macro-character #\))) (read-from-string "(let [[foo 1][bar 2]] (list foo bar))")) => (LET ((FOO 1) (BAR 2)) (LIST FOO BAR))    <--- write that sort of CL code if you like different syntax and/or have yet to realize.
2014-05-31T19:04:41Z drewc: owl-v-: (eval *) => (1 2)
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2014-05-31T19:23:04Z effy: i would like to do TDD in cl, and found this http://www.cliki.net/test%20framework there's too much choice, and not much to indicate which one i should use, does one took over in the recent years ?
2014-05-31T19:23:34Z stassats: people writing CL are so smart they don't need tests
2014-05-31T19:23:54Z stassats: (i may be mixing up "smart" and "smug")
2014-05-31T19:24:00Z Bicyclidine: flip a coin. here you go: fiveam
2014-05-31T19:24:19Z effy: well i guess i should not try to write CL then if it requires to be smart ;p
2014-05-31T19:24:22Z pjb: effy: TDD is already deprecated. Why wouldn't you try the next fad?
2014-05-31T19:24:55Z pjb: http://beust.com/weblog/2008/03/03/tdd-leads-to-an-architectural-meltdown-around-iteration-three/
2014-05-31T19:25:26Z pjb: http://david.heinemeierhansson.com/2014/tdd-is-dead-long-live-testing.html
2014-05-31T19:25:28Z effy: pjb: even if TDD has been "the cool kid" it doesn't mean that it's all bad, i think it's pretty cool to have some tests for your code :)
2014-05-31T19:25:45Z pjb: cool never meant good, or useful.
2014-05-31T19:27:13Z _JokerDoom: pjb, cool has always meant cool man
2014-05-31T19:27:19Z effy: i agree but i have the feeling that it helps me not break my own code as often when i want to modify it
2014-05-31T19:27:29Z jdz: effy: you don't have to do TDD to have tests
2014-05-31T19:27:33Z pjb: _JokerDoom: cool is the worst.
2014-05-31T19:27:40Z _JokerDoom: and the best
2014-05-31T19:27:46Z _JokerDoom: cool is zombo.com
2014-05-31T19:27:58Z pjb: It's empty.
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2014-05-31T19:28:19Z _JokerDoom: No flash player?
2014-05-31T19:28:22Z noncom|2: is kewl cooler than cool ?
2014-05-31T19:28:31Z pjb: effy: before writing tests, you should write specifications.  You should test only what's specified.
2014-05-31T19:28:32Z noncom|2: or should i say "kewler"
2014-05-31T19:28:33Z _JokerDoom: http://html5zombo.com/
2014-05-31T19:29:07Z Bicyclidine: effy: just use fiveam or eos or maybe stefil, they're all aight
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2014-05-31T19:33:18Z effy: pjb: what is your definition of specifications ? are we talking UML? a docstring with plain english ? some kind of pdf document somewhere on a ftp?
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2014-05-31T19:34:08Z pjb: UML is a language.  It's up to you to decide if you express yourself in English, in UML, or in Mathematics.
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2014-05-31T19:36:44Z effy: but specifications dont run, unless you are talking about some kind of TLA+, i'm probably not gonna build something huge in CL (at least not right now that i'm a total beginner), i still think having simple tests that validate most parts of my code would prove more usefull for small/medium sized code
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2014-05-31T19:37:07Z effy: but if you can prove me wrong, well, i'd learn something and that would also be fine by me :)
2014-05-31T19:37:14Z ThomasH: Greetings lispers!
2014-05-31T19:37:51Z effy: hello
2014-05-31T19:38:09Z ThomasH: Can someone recommend a system with a good example of and after method for ASDF perform?
2014-05-31T19:38:18Z ThomasH: *an after*
2014-05-31T19:39:26Z ThomasH: An example of perform that specializes on load-op and the system being loaded.
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2014-05-31T19:44:00Z ThomasH: NM, CFFI has an example, while not quite what I was looking for, shows what I need to see. Thanks.
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2014-05-31T19:44:27Z drewc: ThomasH: np, we'll be here all week! :)
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2014-05-31T19:45:02Z ThomasH: drewc: I'll remember to tip the servers! ;-)
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2014-05-31T19:50:11Z ThomasH: I'm just trying to use ASDF intelligently, which some people may argue is not possible, but I figure you have work with the hand your dealt.
2014-05-31T19:50:21Z ThomasH: you're
2014-05-31T19:51:26Z _JokerDoom: write a brainfuck -> asdf compiler in either of the languages, that would be an intelligent use of time
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2014-05-31T19:52:24Z drewc: pjb: I have the test suite and the specification (and documentation thereof) all derive from the same WEB that I tangle and weave. But it is not TDD ... my drive is different then testing ... hypothesis and prediction come first (which could be termed as 'specification'), which I then test and come up with an analysis before I start all over again. The method I use even has a definition which contains "systematic observation, measurement, and
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2014-05-31T19:53:51Z drewc: ThomasH: are you using ASDF3, and have you heard of http://www.cliki.net/asdf-package-system ? that is what I use as much as possible, and before that existed I used the code which it is based on.
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2014-05-31T19:55:06Z ThomasH: drewc: I've defaulted to whatever comes with Quicklisp, which my system reports as 2.26
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2014-05-31T19:56:10Z drewc: ThomasH: oh, so you want to use an ancient version intelligently? that may not be possible :P
2014-05-31T19:56:26Z pjb: effy: I'm not saying that tests are bad.  It's TDD <the "Driven" part,  that's bad.
2014-05-31T19:57:42Z drewc: ThomasH: http://medias.ircam.fr/x8fb915 <--- "ASDF3, or Why Lisp is Now an Acceptable Scripting Language" video from ELS.
2014-05-31T19:57:46Z ThomasH: drewc: Indeed.
2014-05-31T19:57:59Z ThomasH: drewc: I'll watch that.
2014-05-31T19:58:22Z ThomasH: Watching
2014-05-31T19:58:25Z drewc: It is trivial to upgrade as well... I use QL myself, but always/usually ASDF from git
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2014-05-31T19:59:51Z ThomasH: drewc: I used to use ASDF from git with QL, but I'm in a mode of reducing distractions and thought doing that was a distraction. Which clearly explains why I'm now idling on #lisp.
2014-05-31T20:02:04Z Vivitron: Is there built in operator to determine if a symbol is globally declared special? I can write my own but my method suspiciously uses eval.
2014-05-31T20:02:48Z effy: pjb: i guess that i have a pretty liberal use of the expression TDD, i dont really "YAGNI" but i like all the little accomodations that come from the mouvement, the tools that automatically detect changes on your code and re-run the tests, the widgets / integration with emacs that display the number or green orange red .. the warm fuzzy feeling when everything is green :p
2014-05-31T20:02:56Z Bike: i don't think there is
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2014-05-31T20:05:12Z jdz: effy: the warm and fuzzy feeling is especially deceptive, leading one to concentrate on immediate rewards, instead of focusing on solving problems properly
2014-05-31T20:09:14Z drewc: ThomasH: well, there is (asdf:upgrade-asdf) as well ... I think I made it work for me at some point, and I cannot find the repo anywhere on this computer, so I must have ran it as root or I did the http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Upgrading-your-implementation_0027s-ASDF.html thing .. not sure TBH
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2014-05-31T20:12:10Z ThomasH: drewc: Thanks
2014-05-31T20:12:28Z drewc: having used ASDF from the start, ASDF3 + ASDF-PACKAGE-SYSTEM makes it so I do not need to code for it at all save for (asdf:defsystem :smug :class :package-system :defsystem-depends-on (:asdf-package-system) :depends-on (:lil/interface/monad :smug/parser/org)) ... and that really makes me like it.
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2014-05-31T20:14:17Z drewc: It also makes me structure my src as "modules", with one package per file, which means lots of independent units (modules).
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2014-05-31T20:15:25Z drewc: which IMO makes it easier to make a "systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses", so there you go. I like it!
2014-05-31T20:15:54Z ThomasH: drewc: Okay, I need to read up on asdf-package-system before I can fully appreciate your point.
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2014-05-31T20:20:26Z shlomo: What's the function for adding a property to a plist?
2014-05-31T20:21:13Z stassats: clhs list*
2014-05-31T20:21:13Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_list_.htm
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2014-05-31T20:22:11Z shlomo: thanks
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2014-05-31T20:22:24Z juan`: hello!
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2014-05-31T20:23:08Z juan`: I'm using ltk and I'd like to know how to toggle visibility of a widget (like a frame or a button)
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2014-05-31T20:23:51Z juan`: I can't find anything on the manual and I don't know anything about tcl
2014-05-31T20:24:18Z Xach: I think you have to learn about tk to use ltk.
2014-05-31T20:24:26Z drewc: stassats: (let ((foo (list :bar 'bar :bat 1234))) (setf (getf foo :baz) "added") foo) <--- only because shlomo left is it directed at you :)
2014-05-31T20:26:14Z juan`: the manual says: "Ideally, no tcl/tk knowledge is required to write GUIs."
2014-05-31T20:26:39Z ThomasH: juan`: That would be possible if the manual were ideal.
2014-05-31T20:26:55Z Xach: juan`: Oh, ok. I didn't know that was a design goal.
2014-05-31T20:27:05Z Xach: I have not used ltk and know little of tk, sorry.
2014-05-31T20:27:48Z stassats: drewc: setf getf is not a function
2014-05-31T20:28:35Z drewc: stassats: ah, good point, touché!
2014-05-31T20:28:55Z stassats: and it will modify an existing property, not add a new one
2014-05-31T20:29:02Z juan`: ThomasH: I guess so.
2014-05-31T20:29:18Z juan`: no big deal guys, thank you anyway
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2014-05-31T20:29:55Z ThomasH: juan`: Sorry couldn't help, I don't know tk. The ltk manual would have to be comprehensive for you not to have any tcl/tk knowledge. That is a tall order.
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2014-05-31T20:50:02Z juan`: Hi again
2014-05-31T20:50:56Z juan`: just to tell you that I've figured it out how to hide a widget and
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2014-05-31T20:51:27Z juan`: to apoligize for beign such an asshole!
2014-05-31T20:51:55Z juan`: thank you again
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2014-05-31T21:05:31Z _JokerDoom: that was strange
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2014-05-31T22:21:06Z stassats: to build SBCL contribs on android, i had to write a program in java which sends parameters for GCC to SBCL running on the desktop, which invokes gcc and sends the output back
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2014-05-31T22:21:21Z stassats: and writing java is not fun, but i got sb-bsd-sockets to compile
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2014-05-31T22:31:50Z Denommus: stassats: wut
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2014-05-31T22:41:04Z stassats: somehow compiled sb-posix too, but so many test failures
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2014-05-31T22:55:48Z clintm: How does one use a hyphen in a name in parenscript?  I'm generating couchdb views with parenscript, and some of the fields look like "WORD--WORD"
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2014-05-31T23:13:05Z stassats: connected slime to sbcl on android-arm
2014-05-31T23:13:17Z stassats: android libc lacks a lot of networking functions
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