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00:47:04 -!- names: ccl-logbot nightfly mtd stanislav_ housel mirko`` samebchase aeth Tordek_ felideon zarul harish rszeno andares Anarch_ luis` alexherbo2 jaccas eak pok_ Zag drewc Tarential minion cmatei chitech johs_ gluegadget_ Neptu cross ivan\ hpd cmbntr_ KaiQ kbtr ggherdov ircbrowse froggey_ Guest81800 kmder_ epsylon jdoles dotemacs cpc26_ kbc_ cmpitg pjb` faheem acieroid` ivan bassclide sjl_ ConstantineXVI_ Natch victor_lowther Ethan-_ nuba_ pierpa` BaconOverflow
00:47:04 -!- names: easye` EvW1 Blkt_ specbot Wukix`` nicdev` NNshag alezost` Pinkyman_ asedeno tkd lacedaemon flip214_ splittist__ gmcastil` Praise sellout-1 mc40 MoALTz_ heliumsocket_ nug700_ drmeiste_ hypno_ Vivitron tadni davazp Oddity DataLinkDroid gigetoo billstclair Kruppe zajn bgs100 kpreid arubin klltkr_ Alfr karswell bjz impulse sirdancealo2 axion KDr2 jack_rabbit hugoduncan oxum Jubb optikalmouse ktx LtCrData dmiles_afk cjwelborn ZombieChicken sfa eMBee rotty joshe
00:47:04 -!- names: TristamWrk arbscht BrianRice gemelen bhyde Mandus Tribal m00n __class__ otwieracz Adlai |3b| ezakimak mshroyer 8OWAAACR7 Mathieu keen_ pillton foom Ober daimrod Ash mal___ yano nbouscal Adeon gko reeed lupine gensym bicgena smull_ finnrobi hyperboreean j_king Xach vhost- Odin- WeirdEnthusiast Posterdati ineiros fmu peccu1 eagleflo spacebat sbryant tomaw Roin pchrist xristos tessier brucem aerique_ dim oGMo tvaalen aoh setheus felipe Fade sklr igorw p_l
00:47:04 -!- names: karbak PuercoPop brown``` justinmcp_ newcup ramus stopbit fnordbert sauerkrause Munksgaard Ralt d4gg4d davorb qiemem z0d varjag yakov cibs karupanerura dan64 sixbitslacker Tristam PuffTheMagic sshirokov tali713 Zhivago
00:47:04 -sendak.freenode.net:#lisp- [freenode-info] channel flooding and no channel staff around to help? Please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
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01:32:19 -!- names: ccl-logbot tomaw xristos felipe p_l karbak PuercoPop ramus fnordbert sauerkrause Munksgaard Ralt z0d cibs karupanerura sixbitslacker tali713 spacebat eagleflo peccu1 ineiros Posterdati WeirdEnthusiast Xach j_king hyperboreean smull_ gensym Adeon nbouscal yano Ash daimrod Ober pillton mshroyer ezakimak Adlai __class__ Mandus gemelen arbscht TristamWrk joshe rotty eMBee sfa ZombieChicken optikalmouse oxum hugoduncan jack_rabbit axion impulse bjz arubin
01:32:19 -!- names: bgs100 zajn billstclair gigetoo DataLinkDroid Oddity davazp drmeiste_ nug700_ MoALTz_ hypno_ sellout-1 Praise gmcastil` flip214_ tkd specbot EvW1 easye` pierpa` nuba_ Natch asedeno Pinkyman_ alezost` NNshag Wukix`` sjl_ Ethan-_ bassclide ivan acieroid` faheem pjb` cmpitg kbc_ cpc26_ epsylon Guest81800 froggey cmbntr_ Neptu Tarential drewc eak jaccas luis` stanislav_ ``Erik rvchangue abbe Patzy marsam rk[]_[] naryl Guest27043 moto9 My_Hearing _death
01:32:19 -!- names: Khisanth wormphlegm ft vsync housel samebchase Anarch_ gluegadget cross ircbrowse dotemacs victor_lowther BaconOverflow Blkt_ lacedaemon cjwelborn m00n mal___ lupine bicgena PuffTheMagic dan64 yakov varjag qiemem davorb d4gg4d stopbit igorw sklr Fade setheus dim aerique_ brucem tessier wilfredh_ dfox yeltzooo scoofy Watcher7ish KingNato jdoles ldionmarcil 8OWAAACR7 tvaalen jchelary_ Cheery fmu qsun Corvidium tensorpudding nullman frx copec Zag felideon
01:32:19 -!- names: wall otwieracz WarWeasle justinmcp vnz j0ni Shozan 17SAAE1HC Tribal Bike mathrick effy ck Guest39003 doomlord_ heliumsocket Vivitron kpreid KDr2 BrianRice bhyde keen_ Slowpoke_Man chitech bobbysmith0071 vert2 jsnell AntiSpamMeta yroeht1 bege freiksenet seangrove rtoym reeed sbryant The_third_man antoszka joga clop2 _schulte_ gko __main__ Tordek oleo Trystam
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02:38:03 -!- names: finnrobi bjorkintosh drdo nitro_idiot phadthai j0ni froggey sigjuice faheem jackdaniel zbigniew_ johs ozzloy Foxboron jasom Ash Tordek p_l|backup ec_ minion djinni` abend loke jayne bhyde nicdev clog reb` vert2 hpd wormphlegm oGMo keen_ BrianRice 8OWAAACR7 cmbntr_ kbc_ sjl nuba specbot ezakimak Ober gensym eagleflo sixbitslacker cibs z0d Munksgaard sauerkrause fnordbert ramus felipe tomaw joga peccu1 sfa clop schoppenhauer kbtr mtd eMBee tessier_
02:38:03 -!- names: hyperboreean nbouscal rk[wrk] ft setheus aerique ``Erik yeltzooo p_l flip214 fmu ered _death Posterdati felideon Nshag sklr_ ivan xristos` kmder rtoym_ yroeht2 gf3 sbryant nightshade427 sshirokov mshroyer redline6561 lemoinem joast
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06:06:09 <Abby28>  I give you some pictures. I hope you like! http://bit.do/my_videos69
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07:55:06 <A3QB> what is the last version of SLIME for GNU Emacs?
07:55:22 <A3QB> mine is 3.0-alpha
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07:55:43 <A3QB> Compiled: $Date: 2011/08/30 15:34:10 $
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08:02:18 <loke> Quicklisp comes with a SLIME from cvs as of 2013-12-11
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08:06:07 <Abby23>  I give you some pictures. I hope you like! http://bit.do/my_videos69
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08:25:23 <Sophia> What recommendations would anyone here give to someone new to Lisp and programming in general?
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08:25:50 <prxq> Sophia: stick to common lisp, and read a good book first :-)
08:26:04 <prxq> Sophia: what is your experience level?
08:26:15 <prxq> ah - new to programming.
08:26:35 <Adlai> Sophia: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
08:26:59 <prxq> Sophia: There is a nice book by Dave Touretzky titled "A gentle introduction to symbolic computation", avaliable online, which is good for beginners
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08:27:58 <ski> Sophia : you might try "How to Design Programs" <http://www.htdp.org/> with Racket <http://racket-lang.org/>
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08:31:20 <loke> Sophia: PCL is good if you have previous programming experience. The complete beginner can start with Gentle
08:31:46 <Sophia> I'm working through Peter Seibel's book, PCL, as well as browsing through a few older sources, and things are starting to come together. Just wondering if I'm going down the right path... Also, I'm figuring out emacs with this... how do I PM so I'm not clogging up everyone's stream?
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08:34:52 <|JRG|> is it just me, or the cliki "recent changes" page has been hacked?
08:35:55 <ski> Sophia : PM who ?
08:36:27 <H4ns> |JRG|: "spammed" would be the right word
08:36:51 <ski> if you're asking general newbie-type questions, it's probably better if you ask them in public (since more people can suggest things. also other people can sometimes lurk and learn something as well)
08:37:41 <ski> if you really want to ask someone privately, you can do `/msg someone The message goes here.' (without the quotes)
08:38:58 <Sophia> Ok, cool. I'm actually really interested in learning more about AI and distributed networking and computing in general. Stuff like that. Also, NLP and a bunch of stuff.
08:40:05 <ski> AIMA might be interesting then
08:40:33 <ski> <http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/>
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08:42:25 <Sophia> Would AIMA be a better place to start than PAIP?
08:42:47 <Sophia> http://norvig.com/paip.html
08:43:10 <ski> AIMA doesn't teach any Lisp, it teaches AI concepts
08:43:30 *ski* also hasn't read PAIP
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08:45:01 <ski> (for AI, it might also be interesting to learn Prolog. there's a book "Prolog: Programming for Artificial Intelligence" by Ivan Bratko. "Learn Prolog Now!" <http://www.learnprolognow.org/> is a nice starting tutorial for Prolog. SWI-Prolog <http://www.swi-prolog.org/> is a nice Prolog system)
08:46:03 <ski> (however, it's probably best if you learn one language first. i'm just suggesting further avenues to explore later)
08:47:13 <prxq> Sophia: if you go with racket, you will need to join #scheme, as this channel is mostly about CL
08:48:47 <ski> (there are several languages descended from the original Lisp. as prxq says this channel mostly deals with Common Lisp. Scheme is another descendent. Emacs Lisp is a third Lisp)
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11:09:02 <bubbledict> pastebin.com/AhDKwpq7
11:09:39 <bubbledict> I guess everyone knows this, but it rubs me the wrong way
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11:10:12 <bubbledict> when the place is there, both variables are modified, when it's not, only one
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11:11:10 <bubbledict> while the notation is the same in both cases; it doesn't help in my view
11:11:48 <gadmyth> b point to a
11:11:57 <gadmyth> b has a point to a
11:12:04 <gadmyth> share the data
11:12:11 <H4ns> bubbledict: it is not the variables that are modified, but the list that they point to
11:12:17 <gadmyth> yes
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11:13:44 <H4ns> bubbledict: now, when you add a key to the plist, it is added to the front of the list, not the back
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11:13:54 <White_Flame> you know what rubs me the wrong way?  mutable shared state ;)
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11:14:41 <bubbledict> H4an, gadmyth: I am aware of the technicalities. I'm just saying that if the code knows nothing of the assignment, then it's impossible to tell what will be modified
11:14:50 <White_Flame> bubbledict: also, consider the usefulness of locatives if you do something like that
11:15:11 <bubbledict> White_Flame: what are 'locatives'?
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11:15:25 <White_Flame> basically just a container to hold the lisp "place"
11:15:38 <White_Flame> so you can pass that around with similar effects to passing pointers
11:15:55 <bubbledict> White_Flame: is this somewhere in clhs?
11:16:38 <White_Flame> no, it's a usage pattern from elsewhere.  I believe it was implemented in pre-standardized lisps
11:16:48 <gadmyth> yes, like cons, add to the front
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11:17:49 <bubbledict> White_Flame: ugh, patterns. Also, consider Erlang for shared state...
11:18:27 <White_Flame> I did Erlang for about 2 years
11:18:34 <White_Flame> (and still have some dependencies on it I need to get rid of)
11:18:48 <bubbledict> It looked like you were joking
11:18:52 <H4ns> bubbledict: did you have an actual question or did you just want to complain?  if the latter, let me tell you that it is all well defined and if it "rubs" you, you need to get over it or walk away :)
11:18:53 <White_Flame> but it's a great language to learn from
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11:19:59 <bubbledict> Ah, the arrogance of so-called lisp hackers
11:20:10 <bubbledict> sir, yes, sir
11:20:13 <H4ns> bubbledict: hu?
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11:20:39 <bubbledict> that it is 'well defined' doesn't mean that it's allright
11:21:08 <H4ns> bubbledict: it is allright in the context of common lisp.
11:21:40 <Shinmera> Ah, the arrogance of people who think they know better than the spec.
11:21:50 <H4ns> bubbledict: are you expecting us to tell you "you are rifht, we're going to change common lisp"?
11:22:07 <White_Flame> (wow, some real knee-jerking going on here)
11:22:12 <bubbledict> H4ns, I expect nothing
11:22:39 <H4ns> bubbledict: i'm just interested in knowing what your remark was about
11:22:45 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
11:22:46 <H4ns> bubbledict: what did you want to discuss?
11:22:56 <White_Flame> anyway, there is a locatives lib, if you care to use one: http://lisp-search.acceleration.net/html/cl-locatives.html
11:23:25 <bubbledict> just a normal question, I prepended it with 'probably everyone knows this'. That everything here gets answered with 'look up the spec' is not very helpful
11:23:33 <White_Flame> I remember reading some nice descriptions about them a couple of years back, but can't find the link via google
11:24:09 <bubbledict> White_Flame: thanks, that was helpful. I'm not here to whine, H4ns, just looking for perspective
11:24:24 <H4ns> bubbledict: excuse me.  i could not find a question in your remark and concluded that you wanted an explanation for the behaviour, but that was not it, i guess.
11:24:53 <White_Flame> Really, the issue is that Lisp does not have a notion of a list as an entity unto itself, so tracking the head of a list is left to the user
11:25:08 <bubbledict> H4ns, no problem. I also said 'I am aware of the technicalities' just after your answer :)
11:25:14 <White_Flame> whereas something like a Java LinkedList is a place to store the (mutable) head
11:26:33 <bubbledict> White_Flame: that's my problem. Lisp is presented as a high-level language and its simplicity and syntax appeals to me very much but no one is upfront about tracking pointers. At least in C they tell you from the onset.
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11:27:28 <H4ns> bubbledict: common lisp is a language that can be used for both high-level and low-level things.  because of that, it has all sorts of mechanisms that may not be appealing when working on either of the levels or in between.
11:28:06 <H4ns> bubbledict: it also has all kinds of historical baggage that is included because at the time it was created, several lisp dialects needed to be unified into the common one, each bringing their own idiosyncracies
11:28:53 <H4ns> bubbledict: and finally, common lisp is a final language.  if you find something that you don't like, all you can do is ignore it.
11:29:09 <White_Flame> bubbledict: I think that Lisp is pretty up front as to what a cons cell is, and that a list is merely a usage pattern of cons cells
11:29:17 <bubbledict> H4ns, that's what I see: for example: defun, defsetf, defun-setf-expander. Figure out everything by yourself. It's appealing but very dry.
11:29:34 <H4ns> bubbledict: *shrug*
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11:36:56 <ggole> bubbledict: you get the same thing in Java, Python, etc. There's really nothing unusual about it at all.
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11:37:37 <ggole> Aliasing can indeed be confusing and surprising, but that isn't something specific to Lisp.
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11:40:05 <bubbledict> ggole: it might come down to the way I was taught Lisp back at uni: 'pointer' was never in the materials. In that context, my example looks weird.
11:40:30 <White_Flame> it doesn't have anything to do with pointers, it has to do with holding on to specific cons cells
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11:41:13 <ggole> Well, there are no explicit pointers in the language
11:41:33 <ggole> Usually their existence is implied by, say, box diagrams
11:41:36 <White_Flame> there is the notion of "place" though
11:41:45 <ggole> Places are different though
11:41:59 <ggole> Places are more like a protocol
11:42:05 <White_Flame> the 'place' b is being modified by getf, here
11:42:15 <gadmyth> time to go back home ;-)
11:42:17 <ggole> You can't store a place or return one from a function
11:42:21 <gadmyth> bye
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11:42:34 <White_Flame> right, hence the need for locatives for some edge cases
11:42:38 <ggole> (Modulo fun with eval, I guess.)
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11:44:57 <bubbledict> I can't follow that about places. A place sure has an address in memory. Can you tell me what does 'place' add to the discussion?
11:45:14 <ggole> Places are not addresses.
11:45:33 <White_Flame> The spec defines a place.  They're used for setf forms, for instance.
11:45:45 <White_Flame> (setf (gethash ...) val)
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11:45:51 <White_Flame> the gethash form is a place
11:46:08 <White_Flame> and is not directly linked to an address, especially before the key is inserted
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11:47:49 <White_Flame> you can pass around places in macro expansions, but you can't pass them around at runtime.  Normally, macro expansion suffices, but in some cases you're forced to create a container to hold the mutations, and pass the container around
11:48:13 <White_Flame> (...pass around the source code representation of a place, specifically)
11:48:41 <ggole> A good example to explain why places are not addresses is (let ((x #b11)) (setf (ldb (byte 1 0) x) 0) x)
11:48:53 <ggole> This code sets the first bit of x to 0
11:49:02 <ggole> Despite the fact that bits are not addressable.
11:49:16 <Fare> bubbledict: if you want to either handle multithreading or interface with C, you need to understand pointers.
11:49:45 <Fare> that's an if. If you don't, more power to you.
11:50:52 <bubbledict> Guys, thanks for your effort but I can't make sense of that, and the definition of place in the clhs talks about 'generalized reference', and when I go there it's never down to anything I can make sense of.
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11:51:35 <ggole> Basically the Lisp system will replace a setf form with whatever code is needed to make the update.
11:52:07 <White_Flame> when you (gethash ..) or (ldb ...) as a place, that form is not evaluated.  It represents a place and is rewritten to use (setf gethash ...) or (setf ldb ...) handlers to perform the modification
11:52:26 <ggole> Literally, whatever: you can have it make system calls if you like.
11:52:34 <White_Flame> but since that place is a self-contained term, you can build them up with macros easily
11:53:04 <White_Flame> consider the expansion to #"push
11:53:07 <White_Flame> #'push
11:53:32 <White_Flame> it reads the place, and writes to the place, which are different pieces of code, but which both reference the same form
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11:53:56 <White_Flame> for the read, the form itself is evaluated as normal
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11:56:22 <White_Flame> incidentally, the gethash example is where I'm going to be inserting locatives
11:56:41 <White_Flame> sine the read & write using gethash appears to look up the index each time
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11:57:05 <White_Flame> drop a locative there, and you can do 1 index lookup to find the locative, the modify it directly
11:57:23 <White_Flame> when the has comparison is very expensive (giant nested cons structures via #'equal), that's important
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11:57:33 <White_Flame> ..hash comparison..
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12:00:17 <bubbledict> so, places are whatever is defined in a setf expansion, and anything can be done there, with the reader and the writer functions (or macros)
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12:00:43 <ggole> Hmm, I didn't think of (setf (gethash ...) ...) as running a hash function twice.
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12:01:05 <White_Flame> ggole: setf itself shouldn't, but push does
12:01:12 <ggole> Oh, push. Right.
12:01:26 <Zhivago> Why does push do so?
12:01:49 <Zhivago> There's some complex setf-expander-magic to avoid re-evaluation.
12:01:50 <ggole> It reads the value first.
12:02:05 <White_Flame> Zhivago: yeah, I would hope so, but I saw 2 calls in the disassembly
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12:02:17 <H4ns> ggole: i think there is some specific optimization in most cl implementations to avoid hashing the same value twice in direct succession.
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12:03:15 <ggole> Yeah, it seems like an obvious thing to try and improve.
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12:04:50 <Zhivago> CL could benefit from a compare-and-swap special for hash-tables. :)
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12:05:32 <Abby30>  I give you some pictures. I hope you like! http://bit.do/my_videos69
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12:06:38 <oleo> porn spammer
12:06:49 <oleo> lol
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12:14:28 <flip214> Zhivago: just define your own class that uses an additional CONS cell per hash-table-entry, and you're done, too.
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12:33:28 <oleo> http://picpaste.com/pics/Bildschirmfoto1-dJx2YcuC.1392294760.png
12:33:36 <oleo> http://picpaste.com/pics/Bildschirmfoto2-O2A3AuNw.1392294768.png
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12:35:23 <oleo> the first has too much indentation or ugly offset alignment or some such....
12:36:00 <oleo> since that's climacs i assume it's todo with climacs syntax/indenter etc....
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12:40:32 <ggole> That's the correct indentation for function calls: presumably the indenter is missing the &body hint for some reason
12:41:13 <oleo> i don't know after tabbing through in the listener the indentation is nicer...not so in climacs....
12:41:23 <oleo> it lengthens the buffer widht more and more.....
12:41:28 <oleo> ad infinitum....
12:41:40 <oleo> if you have lengthy codes i.e.
12:42:13 <oleo> i tried to nail it down but couldn't really find the pointer where to change stuff or add etc....
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12:43:14 <oleo> also setting clim-internals::*use-goatee* to t, using a comma inside the listener throws me into the debugger...
12:44:26 <oleo> i changed space-width initform from 8 to 4 in tabify-mixin and tab-width initform to 4 as well without any effects....
12:45:31 <oleo> and it rather uses stream-character-width of Space and Tab for the respective widths actually (in pixels probably)
12:45:57 <oleo> but anyway in listener the indentation stuff is ok....
12:46:16 <oleo> so the fault is not in the mcclim tree....
12:46:24 <oleo> it's in climacs itself...
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12:47:54 <oleo> ggole: i saw a basic indenter for various stuff, and am not sure what is used as indentation for stuff not specified being of some indentation-type
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12:49:53 <ggole> oleo: I don't know anything about climacs, sorry
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12:50:14 <oleo> hahaha, i don't believe you but anyway....
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12:51:07 <ggole> O_o
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12:51:42 <oleo> i just hope one does not have to define a basic indenter for various stuff by hand....
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12:53:42 <splittist___> oleo: how else is climacs supposed to know how you want WITH-TEXT-STYLE and FORMATTING-TABLE etc. to be layed out? This is a real question.
12:54:25 <oleo> splittist___: i DON'T KNOW!
12:54:57 <ggole> The usual trick is that some machinery is put in place such that the &body argument of a macro is indented specially.
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12:56:51 <oleo> case based indenting is ok but then how is function-form supposed tobe recognized ?
13:00:43 <oleo> indentation stuff for climacs is in DREI
13:00:58 <oleo> dunno if it uses stuff and overrides it or so....
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13:04:22 <splittist___> oleo: I don't really understand what you are saying. Yes, the indentation stuff is in Drei/lisp-syntax.lisp. If you have particular macros you want indented differently, it doesn't seem too horrible to do a few (define-simple-indentor (clim:...)) forms.
13:07:45 <oleo> that will be a long list then.....
13:08:42 <oleo> i'll have a look later on in climacs-lisp-syntax.lisp since stuff is there.....
13:08:42 <splittist___> Maybe not as long as you think. And you have a programmable editor to do the repetitive work. However...
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13:10:32 <splittist___> ... a better idea is to use the information that Swank extracts about macro indentation -- see https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/swank.lisp#L3536
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13:15:37 <oleo> thank you for the pointers
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13:20:02 <Odin-> What'd be the best way to get to grips with the CL pretty-printer?
13:20:43 <Xach> I think rpw3 wrote about it a bit
13:21:08 <oleo> read ppmx.lisp ?
13:21:49 <oleo> and the old xp.lisp ?
13:22:07 <Odin-> Use the source?
13:22:21 <Odin-> I'm mostly just wondering if the XP doc is "close enough". :p
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13:23:55 <splittist___> Read the Waters chapter in CLtL2 https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node253.html and his(?) memo about pretty-printing Pascal?
13:24:47 <splittist___> Here: http://www.merl.com/publications/TR93-17
13:25:27 <Odin-> Oh, nice. Thank you.
13:25:48 <splittist___> s/Pascal/a subset of Lisp as Pascal/
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13:28:06 <Odin-> It seems to be a pretty powerful facility. And yet it seems rarely mentioned...
13:28:23 <Xach> Odin-: lots of features like that in CL
13:28:55 <Odin-> I've noticed.
13:29:05 <Xach> It could be that if it becomes fashionable to hack on the pretty printer, many bugs in different implementations will become apparent, and there will be a period of unpleasant workarounding before glorious harmony
13:29:12 <Odin-> It's kinda scary.
13:29:18 <Xach> like with CLOS
13:29:25 <Odin-> Heh, for that exact reason. :D
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13:36:10 <Xach> How can I set a different starting package in slime?
13:36:44 <White_Flame> setf *package* in your .sbclrc?
13:37:05 <ogamita> Xach: or in .swank.lisp ?
13:40:32 <Xach> It didn't work in ~/.swank.lisp
13:40:35 <White_Flame> I've got a table of projects in my .sbclrc, so after starting slime I always do (interactive '<project-name>), which loads everything up and sets the package for me
13:41:02 <Xach> .sbclrc worked.
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16:19:13 <spintronic> Just finished a homework assignment on real-time multithreaded programming in C on Linux. I was wondering if lisp has ever been used for real-time?
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16:19:51 <White_Flame> usually garbage-collected languages aren't used for hard real-time
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16:20:40 <ogamita> There are real time garbage collectors.
16:21:19 <spintronic> yeah that's what I was thinking too. If I wanted to work with movitz for example the garbage collector built into it would get in the way.
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16:22:05 <White_Flame> I haven't done much real-time programming, but I also assume it sticks pretty close to the metal
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16:25:19 <spintronic> Well for soft real-time the Linux kernel has a few special schedulers that can be activated to take over most of the processing time. Maybe something could be written in movitz to disable garbage collecting and activate it's own  real-time scheduler.
16:26:22 <spintronic> It would be reduced to a lisp wrapper around some custom assembly code.
16:26:57 <dlowe> you can easily avoid garbage collection by just not allocating anything in your time-critical sections
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16:27:41 <dlowe> malloc() doesn't have good time guarantees either :)
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16:28:56 <spintronic> ah ok
16:29:07 <White_Flame> if code does polling, then there's really no non-time-critical sections
16:29:08 <H4ns> real-time is a very broad term anyway.  one thing that is often associated with it is a bounded response time to external events.  that is something most lisp environments cannot offer because the gc may cause arbitrarily long pauses
16:29:19 <H4ns> in practice, though, the pauses are barely noticeable nowadays
16:30:22 <H4ns> i'd also say that any program with a gui is a real-time program, and there are programs with guis in lisp.  q.e.d.
16:30:25 <White_Flame> especially if you're talking about a dedicated process with likely a small heap
16:32:13 <H4ns> spintronic: it is quite possible to write lisp code that does not cons during normal operation, and such code can be responding very quickly.
16:32:43 <H4ns> spintronic: this is something where lisp has an edge over other dynamic languages, because in lisp, it is actually possible to write programs that do not cons.
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16:34:53 <spintronic> yeah I'm reading a little bit about user control of garbage collection. In SBCL there is the (WITH-GC-OFF ...) function.
16:35:05 <H4ns> spintronic: that's not what i'm talking about
16:35:22 <spintronic> what do you mena?
16:35:24 <spintronic> *mean?
16:35:26 <H4ns> spintronic: the point is, as dlowe said, to avoid dynamic allocations rather than gc
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16:35:41 <H4ns> spintronic: if you don't allocate stuff on the heap, the garbage collector will never run.
16:36:03 <spintronic> Oh even simpler.
16:36:06 <H4ns> spintronic: there are techniques to still allocate stuff (usually called "resources"), which help writing such programs.
16:36:39 <spintronic> would the vector type in lisp be one of them as well?
16:36:41 <H4ns> spintronic: the lisp machine manual has a nice description of that technique: http://common-lisp.net/project/bknr/static/lmman/resour.xml
16:37:02 <H4ns> spintronic: if you use (make-array) then yes, you're using the heap
16:37:38 <H4ns> spintronic: but you can preallocate some arrays (e.g. using the resource technique) and then avoid having to do run-time allocation.
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16:39:09 <spintronic> interesting. and what about mutexes?
16:39:44 <H4ns> mutexes are not usually created at run time, and if an implementation goes to the heap in order to lock one, i'd be surprised
16:40:15 <H4ns> but again, if you need to dynamically allocate them, you can allocate a pool to take the mutexes from
16:41:19 <spintronic> yeah
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16:44:49 <spintronic> very cool. Thanks H4ns for the info!
16:45:31 <H4ns> enjoy :)
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01:01:29 
01:01:29 -!- names: ccl-logbot Oddity WarWeasle atgreen karswell Codynyx ASau` Fare genericus stepnem peterhil jack_rabbit vibs29 kirin` zRecursive Vutral zophy zacharias ndrei knob kcj Ethan- Adlai zajn adrians gmcastil Vivitron` QwertyDragon wgreenhouse _tca schoppenhauer edgar-rft Poenikatu cpc26 milosn jl_ drewc adsisco PuffTheMagic slyrus emma nisstyre hzp Watcher7 fridim_ drdo bgs100 clog mhd arubin michael_lee ericmathison ferada Jubb clop2 theos alexherbo2 cdidd
01:01:29 -!- names: nydel oleo JuanDaugherty saarin aftersha_ wolgo_ anunnaki_ tvaalen_ klltkr drmeister Praise srcerer_ r0b1 TristamWrk TDog urandom__ seangrove nug700 denis mal__ prxq yrk ec LiamH dlowe justinmcp sellout- dmiles matko fikusz_ mksan nichtdiebohne mc40 stanislav angavrilov ktx Khisanth tessier aeth ft victor_lowther_ BaconOverflow_ jonh gigetoo ZombieChicken xan_ j_king araujo Bike marsam cory786 ggherdov sirdancealot KDr2 axion jathd naryl iwilcox therik
01:01:29 -!- names: cmpitg Patzy EvW mathrick bhyde Mandus Kruppe bocaneri ivan\ alezost bjz pjb Sgeo JPeterson wchun joneshf-laptop mtd bobbysmith007 InvalidCo heddwch hellome sfa Pullphinger ahungry gluegadget joast effy ski GuilOooo Subfusc billstclair lupine ThePhoeron Borbus Xach hpd WeirdEnthusiast mood cjwelborn _d3f |3b| otwieracz spacebat zbigniew nicdev qlkzy speckle optikalmouse cross jaimef ConstantineXVI arbscht bjorkintosh tormato AntiSpamMeta robot-beethoven
01:01:29 -!- names: hugod davorb wildharvest__ finnrobi mordocai MightyJoe Foxboron Ash Odin- nuba guaqua luis kanru kbtr keen__ Mandus_ specbot ezakimak eagleflo cyphase White_Flame __class__ _schulte_ sjl H4ns musicalchair PuercoPop qiemem d4gg4d___ zarul vhost- nightfly stopbit AeroNotix Adeon housel dRbiG Zhivago cmatei Tarential acieroid antoszka foom rvncerr Tristam brucem dim chr``` DrForr zymurgy copec Shozan dfox_ Kabaka [SLB] rvchangue Anarch ianmcorvidae epsylon
01:01:29 -!- names: eak_ other_nick-37 theBlackDragon tkd cpt_nemo Neptu_ hypno_ nialo` staykov yano oconnore samebchase cods dotemacs tali713 joshe Yamazaki-kun Ralt pchrist andares ineiros karupanerura ircbrowse splittist benny wilfredh bicgena varjag m00n dan64 quackv4 Fade smull enn easye fe[nl]ix qsun akersof killmaster Natch scoofy __main__ galdor gko ecraven Blkt pillton eigenlicht jdoles abunchofdollarsi madnificent tomaw felipe ramus fnordbert sauerkrause
01:01:29 -!- names: Munksgaard z0d cibs sixbitslacker gensym Ober kbc_ cmbntr_ 8OWAAACR7 BrianRice joga peccu1 clop eMBee hyperboreean rk[wrk] setheus aerique ``Erik yeltzooo p_l flip214 fmu ered _death Posterdati Nshag sklr_ ivan xristos` kmder rtoym_ yroeht2 oGMo sbryant nightshade427 sshirokov mshroyer redline6561 lemoinem gf3 wormphlegm vert2 reb` jayne abend djinni` minion p_l|backup Tordek jasom ozzloy johs jackdaniel faheem sigjuice froggey j0ni phadthai nitro_idiot
01:01:29 -!- names: K1rk freiksenet gabot sytse Cheery BlastHardcheese aoh tychoish igorw spacefrogg newcup quasisane mikaelj pok abbe jsnell Zag
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01:04:16 <barebackbear> did the LGBT community create lisp?
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01:04:58 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
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01:06:03 <abunchofdollarsi> wbooze, looks like an 80 char cutoff.
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01:08:18 <wbooze> abunchofdollarsi: i even change the *default-fill-column* both in variables.lisp and in my .beirc.lisp file, to no avail.....
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01:08:23 <wbooze> doesn't matter .....
01:08:45 <wbooze> abunchofdollarsi: so what would the fix look like ?
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01:10:27 <abunchofdollarsi> wbooze, I don't know, I'd grep around and startup the debugger.
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01:12:08 <barebackbear> are all of you gay? ;)
01:12:23 -!- p_l has set mode +b *!*47b15ff3@*.71.177.95.243
01:12:23 -!- barebackbear [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (No. Your trolling is not up to spec, too)
01:13:16 <wbooze> nope, some are just mildly cheerfull!
01:13:17 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@77.78.117.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
01:13:20 <wbooze> lol
01:13:28 <p_l> Let it be known that I was merciful and waited for the second offense
01:13:49 <WarWeasle> p_l: You are a generous god.
01:14:04 <p_l> not good, just a grump with +o bit
01:14:16 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o p_l
01:14:56 <p_l> *god
01:15:27 <p_l> a good deed of the day done, I can go to sleep ;)
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01:17:31 <flamingnoms> how about them recursive lambdas
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01:25:21 <wbooze> oh man.....
01:26:18 <wbooze> i don't see those bars on each line of everyone, just of some....
01:26:55 <wbooze> so it means i see their fill-column wraps....
01:28:25 <wbooze> when i put very long lines of myself i assume i won't see my own breaks/wraps as well, but it's suppsedly something else going on i just don't know what, wasn't that way before....tho i tried to do diffs to see if i changed somethign, seems there's not much changed....
01:28:31 <wbooze> oh wait
01:28:40 <wbooze> i seem them on my own lines too
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01:29:20 <wbooze> tho changing beirc::*default-fill-column* does not change much.....
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01:29:38 <wbooze> i see them still at the same spot.....
01:29:48 <wbooze> heh
01:29:51 <wbooze> funny
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01:33:03 <oleo> it's maybe auto-fill-column from Drei
01:33:09 <oleo> which i see set at 70
01:33:36 <oleo> it's more likely that one.....
01:33:47 <oleo> will try to change it and see if things move....
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01:48:04 <wbooze> bah
01:48:10 <wbooze> didn't change anything......
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02:19:32 <cheryllium> How do you start the local server for hunchentoot?
02:19:52 <cheryllium> I found this link: http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/#start But where am I supposed to type that command?
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02:21:42 <Bike> ^your repl
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02:22:13 <cheryllium> I typed sbcl into git bash to open my repl, and tried the command, but it gave me an error
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02:23:43 <cheryllium> I got "Package Hunchentoot does not exist", is there something I need to type to install hunchentoot into the repl?
02:23:43 <Bike> You're going to have to describe the error.
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02:26:50 <cheryllium> "Package HUNCHENTOOT does not exist" is my error, how do I load the hunchentoot package so that this will work?
02:27:25 <Zhivago> You're using the nomenclature a bit wrong -- but I'd look at quicklisp.
02:28:49 <cheryllium> What do you mean by using the nomenclature a bit wrong?
02:29:04 <cheryllium> Please tell me what is incorrect and what is correct. I'm very new to this and want to learn
02:29:05 <oGMo> cheryllium: "package" in CL is a group of symbols, vaguely like a namespace
02:29:13 <Zhivago> Well, you don't load packages -- you load systems, generally.
02:29:20 <oGMo> "system" is closer to what you mean
02:29:30 <Zhivago> I guess that the quicklisp documentation should clear it up.
02:29:33 <cheryllium> Hmm, so what is it called to include a package? I assume hunchentoot is a package as that is what the error says?
02:29:37 <oGMo> quicklisp downloads and installs stuff for you, it's nice
02:29:45 <Zhivago> Loading a system can establish packages.
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02:32:27 <cheryllium> ah, okay thanks
02:32:41 <cheryllium> I just tried (ql:quickload "hunchentoot")
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02:33:03 <cheryllium> I received an error "Unable to load foreign library (LIBSSL). Error opening shared object "libssl32.dll""
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02:33:55 <antonv> cheryllium: either install OpenSSL
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02:34:47 <antonv> or (push :HUNCHENTOOT-NO-SSL *features*) before doing (ql:quickload :hunchentoot)
02:35:21 <antonv> OpenSSL for Windows may be installed from http://www.slproweb.com/products/Win32OpenSSL.html
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02:41:06 <cheryllium> what does the second option do?
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02:46:15 <antonv> cheryllium: it prevents hunchentoot from using OpenSSL
02:46:31 <antonv> cheryllium: it is described in hunchentoot docs
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02:51:09 <oGMo> and "no-ssl" seems pretty self-explanatory ;)
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02:57:01 <cheryllium> yay, thanks! it works now, but none of the images are showing up...
02:57:19 <cheryllium> sigh... sometimes it seems like every time one problem is solved, another crops up...
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03:02:38 <drmeister> How do people organize their code?     I've been writing more and more CL code and I've been tossing defuns, defmethods, define-conditions, defstructs around my source files.  I try to put definitions earlier in the source file that are used by other functions later in the source file but that's pretty much it.
03:03:04 <drmeister> I know it's a question of style - but how do people organize code in source files?
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03:04:11 <drmeister> Here's an example of something I'm writing - if anyone has some style pointers - I'd love to hear them:   https://gist.github.com/anonymous/739adb3589f47761d59b
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03:05:42 <drmeister> It's a static analyzer that analyzes a bunch of C++ source files and writes garbage collector code based on pointers in classes, global variables and local variables that they GC needs to scan as roots.
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03:09:27 <loke> drmeister: What's the actual question? :-)
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03:10:13 <loke> The only real complaint I have is about all those dangling close parens. Looks horrible.
03:10:26 <loke> Like 639 is a travesty
03:10:40 <cheryllium> Why are no images showing up on my local server for hunchentoot?
03:10:51 <drmeister> That's the thing - I have no real question - I'm looking more for pointers on good Common Lisp style for organizing code.
03:10:53 <cheryllium> they show up fine when I deploy to heroku
03:11:24 <drmeister> loke: What would you do?    Put them all on one line? ))))))
03:11:52 <loke> drmeister: Yes. Always
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03:12:47 <loke> The only exception is if I need to put a comment on the previous like, like I did here for example: https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-gss/blob/master/src/cl-gss.lisp#L310
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03:12:48 <drmeister> I've asked people about that before - the advice was "If you plan to add more forms then separate the parentheses with a new-line".
03:12:52 <loke> Line 310
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03:13:25 <loke> Well, yes, if that makes it easier to deal with.
03:13:51 <drmeister> So you always collapse closing parens onto one line - ok.
03:13:56 <drmeister> What's on line 310?
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03:14:16 <drmeister> I mean what do you see on line 310 that is untidy?
03:14:51 <loke> drmeister: The closing parens is on a line of its own
03:14:57 <loke> (line 310 in _my_ example)
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03:15:53 <drmeister> Actually, online 310 in my code I'm defining a variable that I never use - hi ho.
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03:16:38 <loke> I think I should have some examples of dangling parens in lists as well in my code. Let me check...
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03:16:55 <drmeister> I see your line 310.    What about your line 323 - when do you decide to put the close parens on a new line and when do you leave them on the preceding line?
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03:17:50 <loke> I put the close parens on a new line if I have a comment on th epreceeding line.
03:18:03 <drmeister> Got it.
03:18:17 <loke> Because otherwise the commend has to go in a #| |# pair which is just ugly
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03:20:43 <drmeister> I see you put your defparameters deep in the file - not at the top of the file.  Your line 375
03:21:24 <loke> drmeister: Right. Because it's used only by the single function below
03:21:40 <loke> Putting that defparameter in a different place just makes things more difficult to follow
03:21:42 <drmeister> So do you generally define things close to where you use them?     This is in contrast to C++ where you define a lot of stuff in header files which is far from where you use them.
03:21:50 <loke> drmeister: Definitely
03:22:24 <loke> The header file design is a problem itself and a consequence of the history of C. There is no benefit to try to emulate that.
03:23:15 <loke> Some people who like smaller files could possibly want to extract that credentials support into its own file, in which case one would simply take the defparameter form and the function and stuff it into its own file.
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03:23:37 <loke> You can see the current state as simply having more than one file's worth of content in the same file.
03:24:10 <drmeister> loke: I think that's why I'm asking - I write a lot of C/C++ code - I keep thinking I should pull stuff out of the body of the file and stick it at the top of the file to organize things more.  But there's no good reason to do that and some pretty good reasons not to.
03:24:36 <loke> drmeister: Exactly. :-)
03:24:52 <drmeister> What does "credentials support" mean?  I have not seen that term before.
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03:25:15 <loke> drmeister: I'm sure you haven't. It has to do with Kerberos
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03:25:51 <loke> It's implementing the ability to use alternative credentials loaded from a specific keytab file.
03:25:56 <drmeister> Oh - you are referring to what your code does rather than a general programming term.
03:26:00 <loke> Yes
03:26:05 <drmeister> Understood.
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03:27:50 <drmeister> You use backquote outside of a macro - line 176 - I've not done that before.
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03:30:18 <drmeister> You use a lot of check-types - is that recommended?
03:30:39 <loke> which file?
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03:31:12 <drmeister> Yours, I'm still looking at this one: https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-gss/blob/master/src/cl-gss.lisp#L310    Line 216
03:31:40 <drmeister> But you have them all over the place.
03:31:40 <loke> I was referring to the backquotes. There is no backquote on that line.
03:32:04 <drmeister> backquote on line 178
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03:32:37 <loke> As for check-type, I use that generally on externally visible functions (functions that are supposed to be called by the user of the library). That was I can be sure that it's not been called with random data of the wrong type, and it has the secondary benefit of helping the optimiser produce better code.
03:33:08 <loke> Ah yes. Nothing wrong with backquotes. It makes the code much more readable than messing with calls to LIST and APPEND.
03:33:31 <drmeister> Ah.   Where do you put your symbol export list?
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03:35:50 <drmeister> Actually, this has been pretty helpful - I feel better about how I'm organizing my CL code.     I read a lot of CL code but rarely can I ask the authors why they do something.
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03:36:22 <loke> It always goes in package.lisp
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03:38:05 <loke> I rarely touch it, since SLIME will edit it automatically when you use C-c x
03:39:03 <drmeister> Really?   I didn't know SLIME did that.    What does SLIME do with it?
03:39:24 <jonh> slime make me a sandwich
03:39:29 <loke> drmeister: It checks if the symbol is exported, if not it will export it as well as edit the exports list to add the symbol there
03:39:41 <loke> C-u C-c x will do the opposite
03:39:55 <drmeister> How does SLIME know that you want it exported?
03:40:03 <loke> That's what C-x x
03:40:05 <loke> means
03:40:21 <loke> It means export symbol
03:40:23 <drmeister> Wait C-c x or C-x x
03:40:29 <loke> C-c x
03:40:31 <loke> oops
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03:41:15 <drmeister> I don't know as much about slime as I want to.   I need to get it working with my CL.    GC first - then SLIME.
03:41:30 <drmeister> Right now I use *inferior-lisp*  - I'm old-school.
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03:46:50 <loke> Ouch
03:46:53 <loke> painful :-)
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03:56:25 <cheryllium> So I've just gone through the setup for hunchentoot, and I've recorded what I did to get it working. The only problem I still have is that I don't know why my images are not showing up on the local server.
03:56:46 <cheryllium> I had a similar problem once with python django, the images did not show up on the local server because debug mode was turned off
03:57:07 <cheryllium> apparently it was for security reasons, because the web server is not supposed to serve images?
03:57:18 <cheryllium> I never solved the problem with django though
03:57:26 <cheryllium> I wonder if anyone knows how to make images show up with hunchentoot though?
03:57:36 <Zhivago> What does "images show up" mean?
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04:00:21 <cheryllium> The images do not load on the local server. Attempting to view them results in a 404 resource not found.
04:00:41 <cheryllium> Once deployed to heroku, the heroku app has no problems serving the images. They load properly.
04:01:01 <Zhivago> Images are not special -- they're just files with the appropriate metadata.
04:01:33 <Zhivago> So it means that you haven't set up the url mappings or whatever properly, or the files you're trying to map to aren't present.
04:01:43 <Zhivago> I'd debug it as a normal case and ignore the "image" bit.
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04:02:22 <cheryllium> Okay. Still, I am not sure how to debug this. After all, it is a problem that exists only when I run the server locally. It works fine on Heroku.
04:03:51 <cheryllium> This image is being displayed using a img src tag, there is nothing dynamic involved, in case that matters
04:04:19 <loke> cheryllium: What have you attempted to do? Share the source code.
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04:05:08 <cheryllium> It is not my code, it is bhyde's example code - I am trying to make it run without error. Here is the source: https://github.com/bhyde/heroku-buildpack-ccl64-example1/blob/master/main.lisp
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04:05:45 <cheryllium> The image is in the static folder of the app
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04:10:15 <Zhivago> Do other files in the static folder of the app work?
04:11:48 <cheryllium> That is the only file
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04:12:10 <cheryllium> I think you are right though that it's not the fact that it's an image.
04:12:26 <cheryllium> It's a problem with how the static files are served, as they work just fine after deploying to heroku.
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04:15:49 <abunchofdollarsi> I have an object with an id slot that is set to zero when it is first constructed; then later on it and other similar objects are written to a database. In the process of doing this I use the auto_increment feature of the database to give all of these objects unique IDs; so next time I read them out they all have proper IDs. The problem is that I have two such tables usually identical tables of these objects and I want to keep their IDs in s
04:15:49 <abunchofdollarsi> ync.
04:16:35 <abunchofdollarsi> When the database is reset; the next auto_increment value might change and this breaks things when the two tables haven't yet come to a consistent state.
04:17:27 <abunchofdollarsi> What are some alternative techniques for getting unique IDs for my objects; other than use randomness and do something about collisions.
04:18:00 <Fare> ugly: external link table for the id
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04:18:28 <Fare> ids have their own unique table, other tables link to it with a foreign key
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04:19:27 <abunchofdollarsi> Right; which could work if the ID table is write-only.
04:19:29 <Fare> the id table might also contain a type column that links back to the proper table
04:19:57 <Fare> if you don't have atomicity... get a better db
04:20:07 <abunchofdollarsi> Right I have atomicity.
04:20:40 <abunchofdollarsi> I say write-only because of the auto_increment semantics.
04:22:18 <abunchofdollarsi> Maybe write-once is the correct vernacular.
04:23:05 <cheryllium> By the way loke I am calling initialize-application to run my local server (this is defined in main.lisp) so it is setting the dispatch tables
04:23:50 <loke> Hmm...
04:24:08 <loke> My guess is that there is an incorrect mime-type for the file
04:24:34 <loke> As far as I know, the folder dispatcher does not have a default extension-to-mime-type mapping.
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04:25:02 <cheryllium> Hmm... how would I debug to see if that is the case?
04:25:27 <loke> Just manually issue the http command and check the response heades
04:25:29 <loke> headers
04:26:14 <Zhivago> I thought he claimed 404.
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04:27:01 <loke> Oh
04:27:03 <loke> I missed that
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04:27:43 <cheryllium> Yes, it gives 404 resource not found
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04:31:48 <abunchofdollarsi> Well that's completely hacked.
04:33:11 <cheryllium> Well here is a stackoverflow if you want some stackoverflow karma http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21820756/hunchentoot-static-files-not-showing-up-on-the-local-server
04:33:22 <cheryllium> I really hope someone can help me with this
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04:34:56 <abunchofdollarsi> What happened when you put non image files in the static folder?
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04:36:27 <cheryllium> One sec, lemme test
04:36:38 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
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04:38:13 <cheryllium> Still resource not found
04:38:30 <cheryllium> I think it's just any static files, not limited to a certain type
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04:38:53 <cheryllium> I also tried doing static/img.png instead of /img.png, still 404
04:39:04 <cheryllium> you know, in case the app put it in a folder named static...
04:39:15 <cheryllium> I don't know :(
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04:39:57 <abunchofdollarsi> You should try to determine where the lookup is happening in the source.
04:40:07 <abunchofdollarsi> If you've already read the docs.
04:41:37 <Zhivago> Again, do any of the static files work?
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04:42:31 <cheryllium> No
04:42:34 <cheryllium> None of them work
04:42:39 <cheryllium> Also I have read this http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/#request-dispatch
04:42:40 <Zhivago> Then forget about images.
04:42:55 <cheryllium> They work when you deploy to Heroku, they only don't work locally
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04:43:16 <cheryllium> It's not images alone, I just want my static files to be served locally.
04:43:56 <zRecursive> path problem
04:44:07 <cheryllium> I'm thinking that too... but not sure what
04:44:14 <cheryllium> I think these lines are relevant: "In order to dispatch a request, Hunchentoot calls the ACCEPTOR-DISPATCH-REQUEST generic functions. The method for ACCEPTOR tries to serve a static file relative to it's ACCEPTOR-DOCUMENT-ROOT."
04:44:36 <cheryllium> Well, in the source, you have a call to create-folder-dispatch-and-handler
04:44:39 <cheryllium> with "/app/static"
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04:45:52 <abunchofdollarsi> Put a breakpoint on it and see what happens.
04:47:34 <cheryllium> I can see that this is what is being used in main.lisp http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/#easy-handlers
04:47:43 <cheryllium> I'll take a moment to try to understand it more
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04:54:04 <cheryllium> Awesome, I fixed it
04:54:51 <cheryllium> Basically, the second argument to create-folder-dispatcher-and-handler has to be the folder that the static files are in, so I changed it to "static/"
04:54:55 <cheryllium> Hooray for reading the docs!
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07:22:02 <easye> What is FASL an acronym for?
07:22:14 <H4ns> FASt Load
07:22:27 <easye> Ah.  Not quite an acronym.  Thanks.
07:22:57 <easye> I was trying to fit out "Fast Abstract Syntax Load" or something which isn't very Lisp-py
07:23:55 <easye> Actually does that make FASL not an acronym?  i.e. does an acronym have to only use the initial letters of the long phrase?
07:24:55 <p_l> no, it is an acronym
07:25:29 <p_l> An acronym is an abbreviation formed from the initial components in a phrase or a word. These components may be individual letters (as in laser) or parts of words (as in Benelux and Ameslan). [Wikipedia]
07:25:31 <easye> p_l:  right.  According to Wikipedia, an acronym can use "initial components" of the longer phrase.
07:25:51 <easye> Ok.  Back to writing Lisp docs.  Morning, all.
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07:30:45 <drmeister> Why does this produce nil?   I thought the CASE keys could be a designator for a list of objects:    (case 'c (('a 'b 'c 'd) (print "4")) ('e (print "e")))
07:31:49 <Bike> drmeister: the keyform is evaluated but the keys are not
07:32:01 <Zhivago> It uses EQL doesn't it?
07:32:06 <Bike> drmeister: so you have (quote a) (quote b) as keys, rather than a and b
07:32:08 <Bike> i think.
07:32:41 <drmeister> Yes, I think you are correct - I'll try it
07:33:24 <drmeister> Yes, that's it - duh/
07:34:03 <drmeister> case 'e ((a b c d) (print "4")) ('e (print "e"))) --> "e"
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07:34:23 <drmeister> (case 'c ((a b c d) (print "4")) ('e (print "e"))) -> "4"
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07:34:42 <Bike> drmeister: i bet (case 'quote ...) will get you "e"
07:34:56 <drmeister> So you quote single symbols but not lists of symbols - that feels a little inconsistent
07:35:10 <Bike> drmeister: no, i mean you don't quote single symbols either
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07:35:37 <ecraven> the actual case forms are not quoted (the macro auto-quotes them)
07:35:45 <drmeister> Yeah - I see that now - I've been doing it wrong.   Why has it been working?
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07:35:54 <Bike> drmeister: because 'e is (quote e)
07:36:04 <ecraven> so it will match 'quote and 'e
07:36:05 <Zhivago> Probably accidental interning of (quote e).
07:36:07 <Bike> drmeister: so 'quote should work too
07:36:15 <Zhivago> Ah, that's a better explanation.
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07:36:49 <antoszka> I suppose QUOTE was already interned anyway.
07:37:03 <loke> hello bike
07:37:16 <antoszka> s/was/would have been/
07:37:17 <Bike> hello loke.
07:37:24 <Zhivago> As a not-uninterned-symbol, sure. :)
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07:37:55 <drmeister> It's the first time I've used CASE
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07:41:22 <jaimef> (format t "~{~a:~10t~a~%}~%" cd)));; what's wrong with this ~%?
07:41:25 <jaimef>  
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07:42:21 <Bike> jaimef: do you want ~} maybe
07:43:03 <jaimef> ahh typo
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08:02:29 <drmeister> This idea that I had to expose the clang C/C++ AST searching/refactoring library into my Common Lisp and then write a static analyzer to fish out every pointer that could end up on the heap and generate C++ code to track them down and declare them as roots for garbage collection?
08:02:34 <drmeister> It totally works.
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08:04:43 <Zhivago> Cool.
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08:05:02 <drmeister> It tracks down every class, writes a scan function for it if it contains pointers either directly or transitively - then it tracks down every global variable, every static local variable and every local variable and either writes code to declare them as roots (globals/static locals) or will (soon) give me warnings about local variables that put pointers on the heap.
08:06:09 <p_nathan> O.O Shiny.
08:06:19 <Zhivago> Sounds like a good candidate for the next generation of ECL. :)
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08:09:04 <drmeister> This is the output that it generates - this is just for 10 of the 165 source files.    https://gist.github.com/anonymous/eb98c51e1c8131d1b9bf
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08:09:40 <drmeister> The thought of writing and maintaining something like this by hand terrified me.
08:10:00 <Bike> yes i'm glad you didn't write that yourself, jesus.
08:12:28 <drmeister> There are several parts that will be #include'd in different MPS garbage collection functions and the bottom part with all the LOCAL_VARIABLE(...) macros is just a dump of every local variable in the first 10 files.  I'm going to write some more code to sift through them and identify GC-unfriendly locals that need to be rooted.
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08:14:05 <drmeister> Like if a local variable    Foo* x = new Foo(...)    if the Foo struct/class stores pointers they won't be rooted until I add a base class to Foo so that when it gets created it links itself into the root set and when it gets destructed it unlinks itself.
08:15:34 <Zhivago> Presumably that just shoves a pointer onto a stack?
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08:18:46 <drmeister> Zhivago: If I understand you correctly, it shoves a pointer onto a shadow stack - yes.
08:20:17 <drmeister> I have two shadow stacks - one for lexical scope objects (single linked list LIFO) and another for global scope objects (double linked list).
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08:20:51 <drmeister> I shouldn't call the second one a stack - it's just a pool of global scope roots.
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08:22:50 <flip214> regarding http://c10m.robertgraham.com/p/manifesto.html ... tpd2, anyone?
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08:23:41 <drmeister> What's tpd2?
08:24:20 <drmeister> Ho crap - it's almost 3:30am here - I better get to bed or I'll be a zombie tomorrow.  'night all.
08:25:30 *Adlai* waves at drmeister from 34:25 am
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08:29:44 <attila_lendvai> so, these days the order of systems given for asdf (3) is irrelevant? I used to have a dir with the standard version of libs, and a workspace that used to shadow this if the same project existed in both
08:30:28 <H4ns> attila_lendvai: it would be very disturbing if that was no longer the standard behavior
08:30:34 *attila_lendvai* wishes he didn't live in the opposite to Fare's timezone
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08:31:26 <attila_lendvai> I'm not sure about this, but the reason I think this is that asdf/source-registry:*source-registry* is a hashtable now
08:32:16 <attila_lendvai> I'm also struggling to find the expected way to add a single directory to an already initialized registry
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08:34:10 <attila_lendvai> I think what happens is that my attempts to call asdf:initialize-source-registry with the proper specification to add one new directory doesn't do what I expect...
08:34:23 *attila_lendvai* writes a mail to adsf instead
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09:32:34 <flip214> does quicklisp have a registry of the licenses, so that I can run a command and see the licenses of all loaded systems?
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09:54:51 <jaimef> (describe-function)
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10:15:56 <dim> flip214: get the list of the asd files and extract the :licence from there?
10:18:08 <flip214> dim: I did "grep :license */*asd", but only a few had one. Some */LICEN*E files, too, but nothing that worked for everything at once.
10:18:19 <dim> oh, ok
10:18:51 <dim> I was under the illusion that Quicklisp would force using the :licence field
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10:20:17 <xificurC> how can I bind the multiple results of (floor x y) in loop?
10:22:12 <xificurC> I tried (loop for (div rem) = (floor x y) which is obviously wrong
10:23:27 <dim> here's an example: (defun sum-digits (n) (loop with q = n with r = 0 while (plusp q) do (setf (values q r) (truncate q 10)) sum r))
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10:24:01 <dim> it's using truncate rather than floor...
10:25:16 <mal__> or use MULTIPLE-VALUES-LIST and destructure on the result
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10:25:43 <flip214> or, with iterate, you can use (FOR (VALUES q r) = (TRUNCATE q 10)) too
10:25:57 <dim> multiple-value-bind is useful too
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10:27:49 <xificurC> I went with multiple-value-list for now, thanks!
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13:05:20 <dim> esrap author around?
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13:12:42 <fe[nl]ix> dim: you need to email nikodemus
13:12:50 <fe[nl]ix> he hasn't been on IRC for a while
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13:13:07 <dim> ok, will see about that. esrap is very nice to use, but its error reporting kind of sucks...
13:15:26 <hlavaty> dim: cl-olefs can read your file now, i dont think you noticed my message last week
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13:15:43 <dim> indeed, I didn't, thanks much, will try again!
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13:27:17 <xificurC> im getting unprecise results when doing (sqrt y) where y is a large integer, e.g. (sqrt 136025577) returns 11663.0 whereas it is more like 11663.001
13:27:32 <xificurC> how can  I enforce better precision?
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13:28:04 <dim> try (sqrt 136025577.0) and (sqrt 136025577.0d0)
13:28:14 <Zhivago> You try (the long-double (sqrt y)) perhaps.
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13:28:47 <H4ns> xificurC: (sqrt (coerce 136025577 'double-float)) => 11663.000342964926d0
13:29:16 <H4ns> still 11664.0 in my book and not 11664.001, though
13:30:14 <xificurC> H4ns: i got .001 when I added .0 to my number
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13:30:32 <H4ns> xificurC: you'll figure it out i guess
13:30:49 <xificurC> maybe it'll be eaiser if I explain my problem
13:30:58 <xificurC> i get a number and i want to see if it is a square
13:31:18 <xificurC> what i was doing was (truncate (sqrt x)) and checked if the secon value is = 0
13:31:35 <Zhivago> And then, presumably checking by squaring it?
13:32:19 <xificurC> Zhivago: would that be the normal/fastest way?
13:32:27 <xificurC> im just trying to find something reasonable (and fast)
13:32:40 <Zhivago> Well, it would avoid your problem, and the general issue of approximation.
13:33:02 <Zhivago> You found a likely candidate, so confirmation shouldn't be expenisve.
13:33:47 <splittist> xificurC: I'd implement something interesting using this: http://burningmath.blogspot.ch/2013/09/how-to-check-if-number-is-perfect-square.html for example
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13:35:35 <xificurC> splittist: oh my
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13:36:56 <dlowe> splittist: I'd be interested in seeing if there's a binary analogue to those tricks
13:37:36 <dlowe> is there a set of low-order bits that can be excluded from perfect squares?
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13:41:42 <pjb> flip214: have a look at: https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/master:tools/manifest.lisp
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13:44:14 <flip214> pjb: looks interesting, is that in QL too?
13:46:07 <pjb> Next month, I just pushed it.
13:46:15 <pjb> But you can git clone it in local-projects.
13:46:53 <brucem> minion: memo for drmeister See http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.compilers.llvm.devel/70430
13:46:53 <minion> you speak nonsense
13:47:08 <pjb> brucem: a colon after the nick.
13:47:17 <brucem> minion: memo for drmeister: See http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.compilers.llvm.devel/70430
13:47:17 <minion> Remembered. I'll tell drmeister when he/she/it next speaks.
13:47:19 <brucem> pjb: thanks
13:48:39 <pjb> xificurC: truncate o sqrt = isqrt.
13:49:08 <pjb> (defun squarep (n) (= n (square (isqrt n))))
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13:53:04 <splittist> The NSA's suggestion is on pp 74 and 75 of this recently superseded pdf http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/fips/fips186-3/fips_186-3.pdf
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14:04:36 <drmeister> brucem: 'mornin
14:04:36 <minion> drmeister, memo from brucem: See http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.compilers.llvm.devel/70430
14:05:28 <brucem> drmeister: morning! i sent that to mps-staff as well.
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14:08:23 <drmeister> So how will this enable GC in LLVM?
14:10:31 <drmeister> Or is this more a first step to not actively subvert it.
14:10:45 <brucem> drmeister: remains to be seen, i guess ... but if that guy is from Azul, i'd be excited.
14:12:45 <drmeister> Oh, ok, yes that is interesting - someone who knows what they are doing is going to put time into it.
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14:17:57 <flip214> does anyone have examples/hints/whatever regarding tree shaking in ECL?
14:18:16 <Zhivago> What does GEP stand for there?
14:18:28 <drmeister> brucem: Did you see the stuff I posted earlier about generating an automated garbage collector scanner for MPS?     What did you guys do?   Did I ask about this already?
14:18:42 <brucem> Zhivago: GetElementPointer
14:18:59 <brucem> drmeister: yes, we don't do exact rooting for the stack.
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14:20:05 <drmeister> brucem: I'm not either - what about the heap?
14:20:36 <brucem> drmeister: that's precise ... but that's easy given our object model in Dylan.
14:20:55 <drmeister> What makes it easy?
14:21:11 <brucem> drmeister: so we only have to have a single scanner function (which is actually in the MPS sources)
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14:22:30 <drmeister> Hmmm, did you see what I ended up doing?    Am I doing it right?
14:22:47 <brucem> drmeister: not sure ... haven't messed much with MPS in that area.
14:23:09 <brucem> drmeister: what we do is have the compiler build / emit the right data in MMWrappers ... the C layout for those can be seen here: https://github.com/dylan-lang/opendylan/blob/master/sources/lib/run-time/run-time.h#L209
14:23:29 <brucem> drmeister: since we control the compiler and our object layout ... it is a bit easier than having to deal with C++ :)
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14:24:38 <drmeister> I'm following the MPS Scheme example.   I just have a lot of C++ classes to cover.
14:25:43 <brucem> drmeister: perhaps you could have your analyzer output something like our patterns so it is just some static data per class rather than code and switch blocks?
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14:26:56 <brucem> drmeister: have you looked at fmtdy.c in MPS?
14:27:36 <drmeister> You mean offsets into each class where the pointers are found?   I don't get that info from the AST - the layout of class/structs in C++ is implementation dependent and I'm not sure where to get it from.   Is there an advantage to doing that over code and switch blocks?
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14:29:01 <brucem> drmeister: dunno :)
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14:30:35 <drmeister> The switch block should be compiled into a computed goto/jump table - or it certainly will be once I'm done with it.  Code vs table seems six-of-one/half-a-dozen-of-another.   Code is kind of like an unrolled loop.
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14:31:37 <drmeister> Your pointers are in contiguous arrays.   Mine are wherever the heck the clang compiler decides to put them.
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14:33:30 <brucem> drmeister: yeah ... pluses and minuses to owning the compiler that lays out the objects.
14:37:42 <dim> minion: memo to Fare: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/21 --- Qmynd infinite loop on failed authentication
14:37:42 <minion> Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks.
14:38:15 <pjb> drmeister: furthermore for big switches, it may be intersting to compute a perfect hash function.
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14:41:06 <Zhivago> I rarely see switches that are big enough to benefit from that.
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14:43:41 <pjb> You don't look at generated code.
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14:53:36 <drmeister> pjb: The id's I switch on are small integers from 0 to the number of cases with no gaps.   Isn't that a perfect hash function?
14:55:20 <drmeister> My only (possible) problem at the moment is they are not ordered and I'm not sure that the compiler will recognize that they are... small integers from 0 to the number of cases with no gaps.
14:55:38 <drmeister> Not my compiler, the clang compiler.
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14:56:59 <ggole> Any switch compilation that doesn't handle that is broken.
14:58:32 <drmeister> ggole: That is heartening - I think I'm probably safe then - clang will probably set it up as a jump table.
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15:00:23 <drmeister> But I'll verify once I get this to compile.
15:00:29 <pjb> drmeister: Yes. it's the best case.
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15:00:55 <ggole> Small numbers of cases will usually be compiled as branches, since they are better up to a point.
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15:11:16 <flip214> trying to load IOLIB with ECL says "The function CFFI::%CLOSE-FOREIGN-LIBRARY is undefined." does that work for anybody? (Current QL)
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15:14:06 <flip214> hmmm, after prepending "cffi-sys::" to the call I get the (expected ;(  %CLOSE-FOREIGN-LIBRARY unimplemented..
15:14:50 <pjb> Congratulations! You've found a bug and patched. Send the patch upstream!
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15:15:40 <flip214> pjb: "Bugs all the way down", right?
15:16:00 <fe[nl]ix> ECL is unsupported at this time
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15:17:01 <pjb> Given that ecl is stabilised right now, it should be supported.
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15:18:18 <flip214> the cffi asd explicitly says "unsupported lisp" unless one of ecl, sbcl, ...
15:18:24 <flip214> so it should be supported ;)
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15:22:46 <flip214> fe[nl]ix: what's the reason that compiling iolib needs to unload a library? changing the SBCL implementation to not throw an error shows no ill effects (yet)
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15:24:29 <flip214> argh. The function DBUS::MAKE-WEAKLY-KEYED-HASH-TABLE is undefined.
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15:27:17 <pjb> Probably not the right version.
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15:29:24 <flip214> no, dbus is sbcl-only ATM.
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16:20:04 <wbooze> hey
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16:25:00 <Krystof> dlowe: sure: squares' three low bits are always 000, 001 or 100
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17:30:17 <wbooze> http://picpaste.com/pics/listener-3FGhYNRd.1392657717.png
17:30:28 <wbooze> http://picpaste.com/pics/beirc-hCTdAB98.1392657738.png
17:30:37 <wbooze> http://picpaste.com/pics/listener-2-xKZKim4E.1392658192.png
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17:31:39 <splittist> wbooze: you have a future in children's books
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17:33:58 <splittist> "hello, hello, hello world! Hello lambda twisted, twirled. Hello plants in pretty pots. Hello irc with bots."
17:35:59 <ggole> Graph presentations? Nice.
17:36:04 <p_nathan> wbooze: that's kiiiind of shiny? What OS?
17:36:07 <wbooze> i just don't know how to get my current line and col numbers in the listener....
17:36:14 <p_nathan> (how can I get my hands on it)
17:36:15 <wbooze> or i have to implement it myself....meh
17:36:38 <wbooze> it's linux man
17:36:45 <wbooze> LINUX
17:36:55 <wbooze> slackware
17:37:01 <wbooze> to be specific
17:37:14 <p_nathan> will it be open source? proprietary?
17:37:30 <wbooze> it's rather my colorscheming....
17:37:40 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood]
17:37:47 <wbooze> nothing fancy yet.....
17:38:33 <wbooze> i want to know how to invoke stuff with options right from the start from my init script rather than having to edit source files in mcclim.....
17:38:48 <wbooze> for such stuff.....
17:40:46 <wbooze> and another problem is the titles of the tab pages, when they get long the tab-page itself gets stretched.....
17:41:18 -!- srcerer_ is now known as srcerer
17:41:27 <wbooze> i tried somewhere in the sources to use a newline when it gets long but then it is shadowed the the receiver pane....
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17:47:13 <splittist> wbooze: what do you mean when you say 'the tab page itself gets stretched'?
17:48:16 <wbooze> longer names cause problems i say....
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17:56:41 <sixbitslacker> Note: tabouli containing more cracked wheat than parsley is strictly forbidden!
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18:08:35 <fe[nl]ix> segv-: ping
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18:13:20 <segv-> fe[nl]ix: hey!
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18:15:24 <fe[nl]ix> hi segv- :)
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18:15:46 <fe[nl]ix> what do you think of https://github.com/sionescu/fiveam/pull/17 ?
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18:17:37 <fe[nl]ix> segv-: I think I'd rather have IS recognize certain subforms and transform (is (and ...) (and ...) to (progn (is ...) (is ...) ...)
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18:24:24 <segv-> to me (is (and 1 2 )) is something very different (one complicated conditional) from (progn (is 1) (is 2) (is 3))
18:24:47 <segv-> my gut feeling is also that there's a lot of DWIM in IS already, not sure if adding more is really the solution
18:25:04 <segv-> but is-all (which i think could be called are) sounds logical enough to me
18:26:22 <segv-> are you not a fan of is-all?
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18:31:02 <Fare> is fiveam THE ultimate test system for CL ?
18:31:02 <minion> Fare, memo from dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/21 --- Qmynd infinite loop on failed authentication
18:31:21 <fe[nl]ix> segv-: what the guy wants is not to have to repeat IS
18:32:11 <segv-> fe[nl]ix: right, and that seems to me to be a pretty reasonable thing to want (looking at the test suite i happen be in this very instant, it's pretty repetative)
18:32:24 <fe[nl]ix> I don't like to add special cases
18:32:36 <segv-> a) i don't think the way to avoid repeating is is to do (is (and 1 2 3)) == (progn (is 1) (is 2) (is 3))
18:32:43 <segv-> b) i don't like the name is-all
18:32:52 <segv-> fe[nl]ix: agreed, more special cases are bad.
18:33:00 <fe[nl]ix> because if he doesn't want repeating, wrapping the clauses in a cl:and is enough
18:33:10 <segv-> ah, i see what you want.
18:33:16 <segv-> but it's not quite the same
18:33:23 <fe[nl]ix> but then he loses the error reporting for the individual forms
18:33:31 <segv-> because the test count and failure reporting will be different
18:33:36 <fe[nl]ix> :)
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18:34:00 <fe[nl]ix> exactly what I thought
18:34:25 <fe[nl]ix> so I could 1) add some basic transforms
18:34:30 <segv-> Fare: it's a damn good test system, and fe[nl]ix's doing a damn good job of maintainig it and fixes bugs.
18:34:39 <fe[nl]ix> or 2) tell him to make his own macro
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18:35:03 <segv-> fe[nl]ix: ah, just give him option 2
18:35:23 <fe[nl]ix> Fare: it's the best one around
18:35:29 <segv-> (me personally, i have nothing against is-all in principle)
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18:35:48 <fe[nl]ix> Fare: it lacks one major thing: an external test runner
18:36:16 <fe[nl]ix> for when you want to run each suite/test in a separate process
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18:39:49 <Fare> fe[nl]ix, something that would use lisp-invocation and run-program to run things from another process?
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18:40:44 <Fare> One thing I liked about stefil was each test was invocable as its own function — does fiveam do that?
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18:41:22 <fe[nl]ix> Fare: it's difficult to reconcile that with hierarchical suites
18:41:27 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:f89a:c0b4:d642:4ec1] has joined #lisp
18:41:46 <Fare> how is it? Just have the hierarchical suite define a same-named function that invokes the suite
18:42:08 <Fare> I suppose special variables are needed in this context to provide ancillary state.
18:42:15 <fe[nl]ix> and also with the feature of 5am where it compiles the test at runtime
18:42:26 <fe[nl]ix> which I like very much
18:42:32 <Fare> is that important to compile at runtime??
18:43:00 <fe[nl]ix> yes
18:43:13 <Fare> the default function could be just (defun foo-test (&rest args) (apply 'run-test 'foo-test args))
18:43:50 <Fare> just curious: what do you do for it to matter?
18:43:54 <fe[nl]ix> people want to use M-. and go to the original test body
18:44:17 <fe[nl]ix> testing macros and compiler macros which require me to recompile the test suite every time
18:44:21 <drewc> yay! Fare. fe[nl]ix. segv- .... it seems very familiar here!! hello all :)
18:44:22 <fe[nl]ix> unless you add special testing support to ASDF
18:44:32 <fe[nl]ix> howdy drewc :)
18:44:42 -!- Alfr [~Unknown@g225176125.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:44:42 <fe[nl]ix> I'll be coming to the ILC
18:44:44 <fe[nl]ix> see you there
18:45:16 <drewc> Wow!! That is great news, I cannot wait!
18:45:25 <Fare> drewc, hi
18:45:33 <Fare> fe[nl]ix, wonderful! What about ELS?
18:45:39 <fe[nl]ix> that too
18:45:48 <fe[nl]ix> Fare: you can add the notion that a certain system is *the* test system for another system
18:45:59 <Fare> fe[nl]ix, I'm not adding anything to ASDF anymore, but you can!
18:46:07 <fe[nl]ix> and standardize the entry point for the test suite
18:46:41 <fe[nl]ix> then you can have (asdf:test-system :iolib) automatically recompile the associated test system on each run
18:46:49 <fe[nl]ix> and also pass some parameters to the test suite
18:47:33 <Xach> drewc: are you going to ILC?
18:47:59 <fe[nl]ix> many unique features of FiveAM can be done better with support from ASDF
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18:50:03 <segv-> drewc: hey!
18:51:07 <flip214> on loading an ASDF in SBLC I now get lots of questions "overwriting old FUN-INFO ... for UB32SET/LE" etc. looks like SBCL functions to me.
18:52:51 <flip214> is that related to ASDF3's :monolithic-build-op?
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18:54:53 *drewc* makes a TODO to buy tickets and book a hotel etc because he does not want to forget it and seems to do such stuff
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18:55:36 <Xach> You're from montreal, right? You can be the local guide?
18:57:04 <drewc> Xach: have not been to Mtl since 2009, and I spoke that language first, and there are great FOO-clubs and ,,, have not lived in that city _ever_ .so we need to define 'from', but yeah :)
18:57:32 <fe[nl]ix> you're close enough
18:58:34 *drewc* notes that Boston is one hell of a lot closer than Vancouver, which is 5 time zones away :P
18:58:41 <Xach> Yannick "fract" Gingras was my local guide in 2007 and did a fantastic job, but I think he is somewhere else now
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18:59:15 <Xach> ah, facebook in SF. pity.
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19:10:47 <jaimef> facebook is moving to SF?
19:11:05 *jaimef* hunts for other lispers in SFbay
19:11:54 <Xach> I don't know if Yannick is still doing Lispy stuff, but he did cool stuff a while ago.
19:11:55 <r0b1> SAVE YOURSELF WHILE YOU STILL HAVE TIME
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19:14:05 <flip214> r0b1: (save-lisp-and-die)?
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19:14:25 <r0b1> (be-a-hero)
19:15:49 <flip214> UNDEFINED FUNCTION
19:16:35 <r0b1> :)
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19:23:46 *jaimef* wonders how behind abcl is 
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19:24:26 <Xach> Behind what?
19:24:48 <Xach> It has more than a couple active developers, so it's ahead of a bunch of implementations in that regard.
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19:25:49 <flip214> what's the current recommendation how to catch/handle signals in SBCL? (RESTART-CASE () (ABORT)) asks me interactively whether I want to call the ABORT restart.
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19:30:01 <ivan-kanis> is it reasonable to do Atom RSS feed with CL-WHO ?
19:30:16 <flip214> ah, got it.
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19:30:45 <theseb> if there are no commas (unquotes) in a macro can quasiquote (`) just be interpreted as a regular quote (') ?
19:31:31 <drmeister> brucem: Are you online?
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19:33:55 <Xach> ivan-kanis: i think it might be.
19:34:00 <Xach> ivan-kanis: i've used html-template for it, too
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19:36:38 <ThePhoeron> ivan-kanis: here is a blog article that gives you specific code to do just that: http://briancarper.net/blog/328/
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19:39:10 <flip214> hmmm, why would (sb-thread:make-thread) block? the thread is started, but the main thread hangs and waits.
19:40:12 <ivan-kanis> ThePhoeron: nice
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19:48:45 <Fare> fe[nl]ix, I'm not adding anything to ASDF anymore, but you can![
19:49:01 <Fare> (oops, very typing)
19:49:02 <Fare> Vera
19:49:47 <Fare> flip214, are you using monolithic-build-op ???
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19:51:04 <flip214> Fare: I tried to.
19:51:15 <flip214> Did now fall back to SBCL's (save-lisp-and-die)
19:51:22 <Fare> theseb, IIUC, it *might* be, but is not guaranteed to be, so you cannot assume either way
19:51:34 <Fare> unless you use, say, fare-quasiquote, which does guarantee constantness.
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19:52:24 <Fare> flip214, what are you trying to do?
19:52:38 <Fare> and the thing to use would have been program-op, not monolithic-build-op
19:53:05 <Fare> I don't think there in an operation for dumping an image, beside program-op
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19:53:36 <Fare> but you can call (uiop:dump-image ...) and be portable to all implementations that support it, not just SBCL
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14:16:05 <flip214> does FORMAT ~/.../ use only global functions? does it work with LABELS? says "function undefined" for me.
14:16:06 <stassats`> global only, obviously
14:16:06 <p_l> flip214: I think it can only depend on global ones. LABELS would not be visible to FORMAT
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14:42:21 <Poenikatu> I issued this form on CCL: (run-program "cat" () :input (make-string-input-stream "hello") :output t) It produced no output. Shouldn't it have?
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14:44:11 <stassats`> it did, you probably not looking at the right place
14:44:21 -!- Shozan is now known as SHODAN
14:44:28 <stassats`> in slime, that would be *inferior-lisp*
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14:44:53 <Poenikatu> stassats`: Is it possible to get the output to the SLIME interface?
14:45:25 <stassats`> (with-output-to-string (str) (run-program "cat" () :input (make-string-input-stream "hello") :output str))
14:45:48 <Poenikatu> stassats`: Yes, "hello" was shown in *inferior-lisp*.
14:45:54 <stassats`> (run-program "cat" () :input (make-string-input-stream "hello") :output *standard-output*)
14:46:42 <White_Flame> Poenikatu: usually only the thread running the repl has its output directed to the slime repl window
14:46:43 <Poenikatu> stassats`: Thanks, I'll try that
14:46:47 <White_Flame> all other threads hit inferior-lisp
14:47:05 <stassats`> White_Flame: that's not the case here
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14:47:25 <stassats`> there are no threads here, it's a C program writing to C standard output
14:47:55 <White_Flame> is CCL's run-program asynchronous?
14:48:11 <stassats`> if you ask it
14:48:31 <stassats`> the above snippets wait until completion
14:48:32 <White_Flame> yeah, :wait t needs to be specified, iirc, so it is running it in another thread
14:48:37 <White_Flame> ah, ok
14:48:42 <stassats`> it doesn't run in another thread!
14:49:02 <stassats`> the program is run in another process
14:49:44 <White_Flame> I'm not talking about the program, I'm talking about reading the stdout pipe from the other process
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14:50:23 <White_Flame> that isn't happening synchronously within the repl's call to run-program, if it's an async launch
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14:50:28 <stassats`> man dup
14:50:29 <specbot> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man2/dup.2.html
14:50:56 <stassats`> it uses dup to clone the standard output for the subprocess, no threads involved
14:51:14 <stassats`> inferior-lisp is the C standard output
14:51:56 <White_Flame> so it never reads the current binding for *standard-output* at all?
14:52:10 <White_Flame> at least, when :output t is used?
14:52:29 <stassats`> :output t means use the C stdout
14:52:39 <stassats`> :output *standard-output* means what it means
14:52:55 <White_Flame> yet (format t ...) is still captured by the repl
14:53:14 <stassats`> "yet"
14:53:35 <White_Flame> right, in contrast to (run-program .. :output t) not being captured by the repl
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14:53:38 <stassats`> format has no relation to run-program
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14:53:55 <stassats`> why are you trying to confuse yourself?
14:54:18 <White_Flame> that's an interesting assumption about my intent.  I'm trying learn where the disconnect is between the two
14:54:30 <Poenikatu> This form produces an empty string: (with-output-to-string (str)
14:54:31 <Poenikatu>            (run-program "cat" ()
14:54:31 <Poenikatu>                         :input (make-string-input-stream "hello")
14:54:31 <Poenikatu>                         :output str)
14:54:31 <Poenikatu>            (get-output-stream-string str))
14:54:39 <stassats`> White_Flame: there's no "connect"
14:54:43 <Zhivago> Well, it's another thread in another process. :)
14:54:50 <dlowe> Poenikatu: add :wait t to that
14:54:54 <stassats`> format does what it wants to do, ccl:run-program runs what wants
14:54:59 <stassats`> dlowe: that's the default
14:55:04 <dlowe> oh, well. never mind then
14:55:23 <White_Flame> stassats`: so 't' is not a predictable stream designator, it simply lets a function do what it wants and send output where it cares to
14:55:31 <stassats`> correct
14:55:45 <White_Flame> ok
14:56:08 <stassats`> only PRINT/PRINC/PRIN1/READ/READ-LINE/etc. are specified to use stream designators
14:56:51 <Poenikatu> +dlowe: Added it to the (run-program form: same result.=> ""
14:56:56 <stassats`> Poenikatu: remove (get-output-stream-string str)
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14:57:08 *stassats`* can't fend off all the confusion fast enough
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14:58:15 <Poenikatu> stassats`: Worked. That is, the result was the string "hello", but surely the variable str is a stream, isn't it?
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14:58:37 <stassats`> i'm not sure what you are asking
14:59:02 <stassats`> it's a string-input-stream, but what are you trying to contradict with that statement?
14:59:10 <stassats`> string-output-stream
14:59:14 <Poenikatu> stassats`: Ok, I'll go and look at with-out-to-string in the CLHS
14:59:29 <stassats`> clhs w-o-t-s
14:59:30 <specbot> with-output-to-string: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_out_.htm
14:59:45 <Poenikatu> *with-output-to-string
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15:01:36 <White_Flame> Poenikatu: in a nutshell, it can destructively append to an existing string, or return the captured stream contents as a string if no initial string is supplied
15:02:19 <stassats`> destructive appendiness is rarely ever used
15:02:37 <Poenikatu> White_Flame: stassats`: Yes, I understand now. CLHS has the details. Many thanks for helping me.
15:02:40 <White_Flame> yeah, I certainly haven't used it.  But it makes the spec page a bit more roundabout to read, with that in there
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17:34:12 <Poenikatu> Another matter: I've found a function (uiop/os:chdir "dir"). Is that the only way to change the current directory?
17:34:44 <oleo> no
17:34:51 <oleo> osicat has another one
17:35:00 <oleo> lol
17:35:01 <Poenikatu> oleo: I'm using  ccl now
17:35:19 <oleo> well it's all using the OS you see.....
17:35:37 <Poenikatu> oleo: Ok. Linux x86_64
17:35:40 <oleo> the same thing what your shell abbreviates as cd
17:35:45 <Xach> Poenikatu: In common lisp, there isn't exactly a notion of the current directory, it's more about completing partial pathnames by merging with *default-pathname-defaults*. The OS notion of the current directory matters to external programs.
17:36:15 <Xach> Poenikatu: if you are not using foreign functions or calling external programs, you do not need to change directories. it may be helpful to bind or change *default-pathname-defaults* sometimes, though.
17:36:46 <Xach> how you change directories varies by implementation.
17:36:50 <Xach> (in the OS sense)
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17:37:06 <flip214> if I have two lists, can a FORMAT traverse both at the same time, or would I have to MAPCAR #'list them to one list before FORMATting?
17:37:12 <Poenikatu> Xach: Ok. I'm writing a CL program to do my daily security dump. I need to be able to create a directory, mount an optical disc, umount it afterwards, delete a directory.
17:38:17 <Xach> be aware of some of the lisp security problems. http://xach.com/lisp/security/
17:38:22 <flip214> Poenikatu: you could use unshare to get a separate filesystem namespace, then the disc can be mounted _anywhere_ ... eg. /tmp or /mnt
17:38:25 <Xach> (that is just a joke, that book is completely inaccurate)
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17:40:33 <Poenikatu> flip214: unshare is not in the CLHS nor in the index of the CCL documentation. So, ???
17:41:19 <flip214> "man unshare". linux binary.
17:42:02 <zfx> Xach: what a horrible book
17:42:37 <Xach> yes.
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17:43:16 <ggole> (on nreverse) "This function should never be used to obfuscate data with the goal of protecting it from prying eyes" C'mon, that's good advice right there.
17:43:42 <ggole> Such good advice I fell off my chair.
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17:44:08 <Poenikatu> flip214: I've just read the manpage for unshare, but I don't understand what it does. Can you explain?
17:45:13 <flip214> Poenikatu: the called process gets eg. a copy of the filesystem hierarchy - which it can change without disturbing other processes.
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17:45:43 <zfx> I'm appalled material like that can get by a professional publisher
17:45:45 <flip214> or, with the PID flag, it gets the "internal" PID 1, and it's children go on with 2,3,... - at least according to their _internal_ visibility.
17:45:48 <flip214> and so on.
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17:47:02 <Poenikatu> flip214: I have to admit that your replies are not helping me. I'm not new to Linux, but what is a "copy of the filesystem hierarchy"?
17:47:46 <Xach> I think the suggestions can be safely, even profitably, ignored
17:47:54 <flip214> Poenikatu: normally, _all_ processes share the same filesystem hierarchy. right?
17:48:25 <Poenikatu> flip214: If I understand correctly, yes
17:48:33 <flip214> with "unshare", you can create _separate_ namespaces - so that processes can have a different filesystem hierarchy.
17:49:04 <Poenikatu> flip214: When you say "filesystem hierarchy", do you mean the directory structure?
17:49:15 <flip214> more the mount points.
17:49:56 <Poenikatu> flip214: Yes, from the manpage "unshare -m" does that. What arguments could unshare take? The man page says nothing about that.
17:50:47 <flip214> Poenikatu: it says "program [arguments]", that might be "/bin/bash", or "sbcl --script your/lisp/file", etc.
17:50:50 <Poenikatu> flip214: And how does one undo the unshare? There's no "share" program
17:51:36 <flip214> as soon as that process (and it's children) exit, the namespace gets automatically dropped again.
17:51:52 <Poenikatu> flip214: Ok, so I could put "ccl" as the argument. That seems to be sensible since it's the ccl thread which would be running.
17:52:13 <Poenikatu> flip214: Ah. Thanks about the exit matter
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19:01:06 <flip214> I've got a function that accesses dbus. Calling via the REPL works; via HTTP and hunchentoot I get EOF on the dbus connection. Any ideas?
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19:01:46 <stassats`> no ideas
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19:04:02 <flip214> strace shows that sbcl sends the introspect query, gets no immediate answer, and then calls getpeername() ~50 times.
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19:04:23 <flip214> then throws EOF without retrying to read from the FD.
19:04:33 <flip214> hmmm, perhaps IOLIB has something to do with that.
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19:20:33 <flip214> dbus just closes the socket upon receiving this message.
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19:22:34 <flip214> ah, solved.
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19:22:53 <flip214> I had :INPUT :NAME :name1, and that got uppercased on PUT.
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19:37:49 <kristof> http://cl21.org/
19:37:54 <kristof> Wow, he actually went ahead with that
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19:40:07 <kristof> A lot of this stuff is just... reader macros
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19:40:31 <kristof> So I guess on the bright side, none of this is incompatible with the standard.
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19:47:16 <flip214> well, my most important wish would be an exchanged argument order for PUSH ... I always write the array first. (Too[?] much Perl, I guess.)
19:48:04 <oleo> noooooooo
19:48:08 <oleo> push is fine!
19:48:28 <oleo> push something-> something not push something<-something
19:48:44 <oleo> wth
19:48:46 <oleo> lol
19:49:58 <pjb> kristof: so it can be implemented as a mere cl21 package in cl, so it's no big deal, so there's no need for a standarization round.
19:49:59 <flip214> oleo: not quite. Perl is like (DEFUN PUSH (array &rest arguments)), which is nice, too.
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19:52:39 <pjb> flip214: (defmacro pull (place element) `(push ,element ,place))
19:52:49 <oleo> perl maybe that way or other languages, but if you ask me i find the left to right semantics of push pretty ok
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19:53:04 <kristof> pjb: Yeah. I consider it a convenience package, to be honest. But I guess what he wants is for all the major implementations to include this as a standard extension to common lisp.
19:53:16 <oleo> it's rather the other way around....that it feels not so natural.....
19:53:26 <pjb> people have all kinds of strange ideas around lisp
19:53:35 <oleo> i mean you know stuff from asm etc....
19:53:55 <pjb> oleo: both directions are used by assemblers.
19:54:18 <pjb> move.l d0,d1   vs.  mov.l bx,ax
19:54:47 -!- tcr [~tcr@176.41.81.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
19:55:02 <oleo> might be but still, left to right feels just right for me.....
19:55:07 <kristof> pjb: Are you familiar with how much stuff Eitarow has written?
19:55:15 <kristof> it's really cool how much he gives back to the community
19:55:17 <pjb> and since 680x0 assembler is so much better than ix86, this direction -> is the right one :-)
19:55:28 <oleo> hah
19:57:05 <oleo> for assembly language i wouldn't mind....
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19:57:54 <flip214> pjb: yes, I know. But I get tripped up _much_ too often.
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20:00:29 <flip214> any iolib maintainer here?
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20:07:23 <pjb> kristof: not to make a dick benchmark, but if you remove the clone of clozure-cl, he has only wc of *.lisp 43652  130219   1475630 total while I have 160039   670421  6313234 total, with the advantage that you need only one git clone command to get most of my sources.
20:07:23 <pjb>  
20:07:23 <pjb>  
20:07:35 <oleo> that's a pretty black comment pjb!
20:07:40 <oleo> lol
20:08:55 <pjb> But otherwise, it's nice to have bodies of code available, and it's only the tip of the iceberg, there are a lot of CL or even older lisp code that is not easily available from a git repo or quicklisp.
20:09:00 <White_Flame> I don't think it's as much a problem that push is left->right, rather than the ordering of push & setf are different
20:09:14 <pjb> White_Flame: yes, but it's not pushf, it's push.
20:09:31 <dlowe> (push thing-being-pushed thing-being pushed-to)
20:09:41 <dlowe> (setf thing-being-set value-being-set-to)
20:09:45 <dlowe> I don't see a problem
20:09:50 <flip214> dlowe: (incf thing-being-changed)
20:10:06 <flip214> push is left to right, setf right to left
20:10:22 <flip214> and so the discussion turns 'round and 'round ...
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20:10:42 <oleo> it's around the meaning of the word push!
20:10:45 <White_Flame> solution:  (setf &key value place) (push &key value place)
20:10:46 <dlowe> no, I believe I had the last word here.
20:10:55 <oleo> there's no such restriction for set!
20:11:13 <pjb> White_Flame: :-)
20:11:42 <kristof> pjb: That was totally a dick measuring benchmark
20:11:46 <oleo> set is direction free in that sense, push more or less implies a direction....
20:11:55 <pjb> kristof: Yes, I know :-/
20:11:56 <oleo> and the default one is the right one left-to-right
20:12:06 <kristof> pjb: Although I don't want to turn this into a negative thing because I respect you two both :P
20:12:43 <oleo> if you want that you could have (pull *stack* 'blah) instead of (push 'blah *stack*)
20:12:47 <pjb> kristof: now, the important thing is that you need to reserve time to explore and study others' libraries and code, in addition to the time you spend on writing your own free software!
20:12:47 <flip214> well, turn push around, and it matches incf and setf in that the place is first
20:13:42 <pjb> Just call it pushf: (defmacro pushf (place element) `(push ,element ,place))
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20:13:49 <oleo> hmm, maybe the word is asymmetry here, but dunno on what level that is.....
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20:14:32 <pjb> flip214: and notice: (defmacro pushf (place &rest elements) `(progn ,@(mapcar (lambda (el) `(push ,el ,place))))) ; but write it with get-setf-expansion!
20:14:34 nha [~prefect@koln-4db4f530.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp
20:14:48 <pjb> and don't forget to pass elements to mapcar :-)
20:15:53 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.80.244] has joined #lisp
20:15:55 <dlowe> there are truly no new discussions on CL: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.lisp/IxbQ9ftHXxk/0XWqx3fVfIMJ
20:16:16 Zoe18 [~Zoe18@93.114.45.59] has joined #lisp
20:16:18 <Zoe18>  You can find funny videos here. http://bit.do/my_videos69
20:16:21 <White_Flame> and now, for Lisp-1 vs Lisp-2.
20:16:45 <flip214> pjb: (defmacro pushf (place &rest elements) (NCONC (reverse elements) place))
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20:17:11 <flip214> White_Flame: with classes, types, packages, etc., we're in at least lisp-5.
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20:17:46 <flip214> dlowe: the first thing that caught my eye was "And I found a picture: http://ww..." .... and just afterwards zoe18 ;)
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20:20:54 <drewc1> wow ... cl21 is .... nothing but a syntax redesign and replacing all functions with methods on generics?
20:21:03 *drewc1* had a quick look
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20:22:19 <flip214> drewc1: "nothing but" sounds like it's not worth anything.
20:22:50 <oleo> brevity!
20:22:52 <drewc1> flip214: you said so, not I ... but I might agree with you if I know more about it.
20:22:52 <flip214> just think how much workarounds we could have saved in various libraries because the CL package is locked.
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20:24:01 <pjb> flip214: it doesn't deal with place bound to nil.
20:24:22 <pjb> flip214: you'd need (setf ,place (nconc  ,place)) but then again, with get-setf-expansion.
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20:26:02 <pjb> flip214: actually, the problem comes from constants (notably T and NIL), and special variables.  Otherwise, defining a conduit package for operators is no problem, and let you define an alternative lisp package without too much work.
20:26:21 <pjb> But granted, help from the implementations could be nice.  Time to write a CDR!
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20:31:46 <Vivitron> on the other hand, to me it's simply not obvious _which_ order some of the arguments in operators "should" go, and so perhaps settling it once and for all in a standard and using an editor with arglist hinting is a pretty good solution
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20:37:22 <drewc> Vivitron: GET/GETF vs GETHASH always messes me up ... AREF is obvious because of multi-dim arrays ... beyond that, thank g-d for arglist hinting.
20:37:22 <minion> drewc, memo from pjb: you're confusing INTERN with READ!
20:38:16 <stassats`> people will always find something to complain about
20:38:31 <jamesf_> ^
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20:39:02 <stassats`> if the order parameters is the only thing that drives people mad, i guess CL is pretty good then
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20:41:15 <drewc> stassats`: heh ... now I am reading c.l.l. ... mutability also seems to drive people mad :)
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20:42:13 <stassats`> if they want haskell, they know where to find it
20:42:15 <Xach> Able to be muted
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20:43:14 <stassats`> each instruction my CPU executes is a side-effecting instruction, i don't understand immutability
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20:46:31 *drewc* thinks of the big bang as the start of mutation .... so will the big crunch be the end, or a loop-de-loop?
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20:48:15 <stassats`> drewc: it'll be like one of those old time garbage collectors, turn off/turn on to collect garbage
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20:50:31 <kristof> Haskell has plenty of mutability, but we won't talk about that :P
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20:59:13 <francogrex> sb-impl::stable-sort-simple-vector is it as destructive as sort?
21:00:48 <oleo> try it out ?
21:01:26 <oleo> or use copy-seq independently ?
21:02:05 <drewc> CL21:NSORT <--- there, fixed it! ;)
21:03:06 *drewc* has no idea if NSORT is there, or if CL21 continues the uppercase of symbols by the reader ... was just making a joke.
21:03:48 <francogrex> trying out a few examples doesn't seem to be destrying the original vector but it may be sheer chance (versus a developer who knows what his functions does)
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21:06:11 <Xach> I wish the quick-build stuff could be as easily ignored as the CL21 stuff, but support for it has crept into ASDF and some system files so I need to do more work to handle something that almost nobody uses (or will use).
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21:09:04 <drewc> Xach me and Fare use it, nyef as well .... those are 3 ... I admit that we are nobody, but we are users.
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21:09:22 <drewc> s/Xach/Xach:/
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21:11:09 <drewc> Xach: that said, I use it with QL, but I always to do '(:system :system/foo :system/bar) so it loads the .asd first.
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21:13:34 <drewc> and of course, I have no idea what you are referring to beyond ":FOO/BAR is a system that is defined by a package, but foo.asd must be loaded first before ASDF has a clue about the package-system" ... So i could simply be completely off base here.
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21:14:28 <pjb> stassats`: but you could build an immutable CPU, and even a reversible CPU.
21:14:40 <Xach> You three are the weirdest of the weird.
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21:16:23 <flip214> pjb: GDB has a facility to do program flow backwards.
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21:17:14 <pjb> flip214: the point of reversible CPU is that they don't need energy to exchange states (or very very little compared to normal CPU).
21:17:42 <flip214> pjb: if you store lisp code on a harddisk, does it get heavier?
21:17:52 <drewc> Xach: assuming you are talking about us ... I agree 110% ... so even my agreement is weird ... not odd though, just weird :)
21:17:56 <pjb> flip214: Indeed.
21:18:00 <flip214> or will it get lighter if you put mpeg4 on it, because of entropy?
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21:18:36 <add^_> https://twitter.com/PHP_CEO/status/436565230060339200
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21:19:09 <flip214> add^_: Iceweasel can't establish a connection to the server at twitter.com.
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21:19:33 <add^_> "DEV SAYS MY CODE IS LIKE SOMEONE TRIED TO INVENT A LISP DIALECT WITHOUT KNOWING LISP IS A PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE AND NOT A SPEECH DISORDER"
21:19:39 <add^_> Thats what it says :-)
21:19:44 <add^_> In caps
21:19:45 <flip214> oh, ok.
21:20:01 <flip214> so his reader is :INVERT-CASE, right?
21:20:12 <pjb> Perhaps twitter's limit to 140 is way too much.
21:20:49 <add^_> pjb: If it would count capitalized characters as two, it'd be fine ;-)
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21:22:53 <flip214> hu.dwim.debug has path-to-root.
21:23:09 *jaimef* looks for pjb's offer for lisp work
21:23:10 <flip214> is there some similar package that'll give me a dot graph to see what references what?
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21:23:45 <jaimef> dotty? two-fish
21:23:47 <pjb> flip214: I have some graph to dot code, but nothing polished.
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21:24:12 <pjb> And mind you, it's one of my oldest CL code even! :-)
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21:24:36 <flip214> pjb: be assured, I won't tell anybody that your first code is still better than mine today!
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21:26:46 <White_Flame> pjb: has there been real work on reversible CPUs?  I haven't actually seen physical architectures that practically perform such work with full reversible energy savings
21:27:13 <White_Flame> given that most physical phenomena are not actually reversible
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21:31:59 <jaimef> pjb you for hire?
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21:32:03 <pjb> Yes.
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21:32:08 <stassats`> francogrex: why  are you concerned what sb-impl::stable-sort-simple-vector does? you should not be calling it
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21:32:08 <stassats`> pjb: can you be hired to write BSD-licensed code?
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21:32:10 <francogrex> stassats`: it's one of the fastest sorting, why shouldn't I be calling it?
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21:32:21 <stassats`> francogrex: because, apparently, you don't know what you're doing
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21:32:57 <francogrex> appearances can be deceiving
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21:33:01 <flip214> in case any iolib maintainers care ... perhaps the syscalls.so that gets built could be replaced by https://github.com/vsedach/Vacietis, then no C compiler would be necessary.
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21:34:00 <stassats`> francogrex: not this time, though
21:34:22 <stassats`> if you want to get optimized sorting: (declare (optimize (space 0))) (sort (the simple-vector x) #'>)
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21:34:44 <stassats`> flip214: is that so?
21:35:42 <francogrex> vacieties needs more work
21:36:10 <pjb> White_Flame: Depends on what you mean by "real work".  AFAIK, at least research prototypes have been built.
21:36:43 <pjb> stassats`: yes, when I'm hired, the choice of license is up to the customer.  But my quotes are higher for proprietary licenses :-)
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21:36:46 <drewc> flip214: "The loaded C code has the same function calling convention as regular CL code and
21:36:46 <drewc> uses the same numerical representations. C memory is backed by regular
21:36:47 <drewc> Common Lisp arrays." ... what does syscalls.so do exactly?
21:37:11 <drewc> yikes, c/p'd the linebreaks as well
21:37:14 <stassats`> drewc: wrappers to C functions, basically
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21:38:12 <jaimef> need to port thinatra to lisp
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21:38:25 <stassats`> drewc: meaning, this vacieties thing won't do
21:38:28 <drewc> stassats`: so how exactly will vacieties work ... we do not care what the functions do outside of CL ... or: why is it in C and not CL?
21:38:43 <francogrex> stassats`: please explain yourself. even with the declaration sbcl's stable sorts beats the ansi sort by long shots
21:38:48 <stassats`> probably because it's easier to write them in C?
21:38:57 <drewc> stassats`: ah, ok, so what is going on in my head in somewhat correct.
21:39:10 <drewc> s/in s/is s/
21:39:51 <stassats`> francogrex: with which declarations?
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21:40:08 <francogrex> (space 0 ...
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21:40:08 <fe[nl]ix> flip214: I'm here
21:40:20 <drewc> stassats`: yeah, that is what I thought, and I agree ... especially for iolib ...
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21:40:48 <stassats`> francogrex: that is not true
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21:41:00 <pjb> How much of the common qsort functions written in C is opencoded?
21:41:07 <francogrex> it is absolutely, at least on ly end
21:41:15 <francogrex> I will show timings
21:41:20 <fe[nl]ix> AFAICT Vacietis is in the same bucket as Swig
21:41:34 <pjb> Not at all.
21:41:37 <pjb> Or what do you mean?
21:41:47 <pjb> Vacietis is a C compiler targetting CL.
21:41:48 <stassats`> francogrex: i don't need your timings, i see the code sbcl uses and the disassembly produced
21:41:49 <fe[nl]ix> it can parse standard C but not all the gcc extensions used by the glibc and kernel headers
21:41:56 <fe[nl]ix> and that's what I need
21:41:57 <stassats`> you are just not doing what you are claiming to be doing
21:42:03 <pjb> Swig generates FFIs from C headers.
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21:42:34 <fe[nl]ix> the Swig developers explicitly said that they don't support parsing system headers
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21:42:46 <pjb> fe[nl]ix: ah right, compiler specific extensions are the 10% remaining work that takes 90% of the time-resources.
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21:43:13 <fe[nl]ix> indeed
21:43:18 <fe[nl]ix> but that's what I need
21:43:25 <pjb> fe[nl]ix: it's not impossible to do, some commercial tool vendors do it, but it would require an investment to do the same in lisp.
21:43:40 <fe[nl]ix> don't I know it
21:43:42 <pjb> not counting tracking the evolution of the compilers you want to target.
21:43:49 <fe[nl]ix> flip214: what's up ?
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21:45:21 <fe[nl]ix> pjb: there's another option, but it's ugly
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21:45:38 <pjb> gccxml, and the new gcc plugin stuff.
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21:45:44 <pjb> or use clang.
21:45:46 <fe[nl]ix> no, whay uglier
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21:46:53 <fe[nl]ix> define everything manually
21:47:08 <pjb> inhumane!
21:47:10 <fe[nl]ix> after all, the libc ABI is fixed
21:47:56 <fe[nl]ix> I know, but maybe we could share the work with people from other projects that need it
21:48:13 <fe[nl]ix> python, ruby, ocaml, haskell, etc...
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21:49:45 <stassats`> how hard is it to live without libc?
21:50:10 <fe[nl]ix> it's perfectly possible on linux
21:50:30 <fe[nl]ix> because the kernel devs are committed to the kernel<->userspace ABI
21:50:51 <francogrex> stassats`: convince me against real data not unbacked claim, here we value scientific persuasion not vague claims of authoritative knowledge; http://paste.lisp.org/display/141313
21:50:59 <fe[nl]ix> FreeBSD devs, OTOH, only keep libc compatibility
21:51:10 <fe[nl]ix> they add and remove syscalls often
21:51:18 <pjb> stassats`: there are alternative libcs.
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21:51:33 <stassats`> francogrex: you could have followed your own advice
21:51:33 <pjb> perhaps you meant without glibc.
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21:51:42 <fe[nl]ix> pjb: yes, but what we're talking about here is no libc at all
21:51:44 <fe[nl]ix> direct syscalls
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21:51:55 <flip214> fe[nl]ix: I'd hoped to get rid of the syscalls.so. but if vacietis won't do it won't.
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21:52:21 <flip214> I just hoped that we could just use system headers, and avoid a c compiler.
21:52:26 <francogrex> I would though evidence doesn't allow me to, except for a lot of consing it is still faster
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21:52:54 <pjb> flip214: with vacietis, you can still call lisp FFI functions, so if you have a FFI to syscalls, it's good,.
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21:54:25 <fe[nl]ix> pjb: https://github.com/xach/cmucl-direct-syscalls/blob/master/src/compiler/x86/syscall-linux.lisp
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21:55:30 <pjb> It's probably the sanest way.
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21:56:24 <stassats`> francogrex: do you see the difference that one is a stable-sort and another is just sort?
21:57:17 <flip214> perhaps vacietis would work if the C preprocessor would be used before reading.
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21:59:47 <stassats`> francogrex: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141313#1
21:59:48 <francogrex> it's a simple 1 d array with no ties
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22:00:03 <stassats`> there, your scientific rigor
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22:00:29 <stassats`> never ever use an internal function if you don't know that you have to
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22:00:57 <White_Flame> The most glaring thing I see is one is 32 bit and the other is 64 bit
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22:01:03 <White_Flame> based on the consing size
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22:04:33 <katy26>  Here some videos. I hope you like them! http://bit.do/my_videos69
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22:04:54 <oleo> lol
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22:05:00 <oleo> you again!
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22:07:22 <francogrex> you know the internals better - you are developing them, I only see the results on the examples I use and here I don't see advantages
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22:07:25 <francogrex> maybe in 2D arrays with ties it will make a difference
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22:07:46 <stassats`> no, you are comparing different things, stable-sort and not stable sort
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22:11:22 <stassats`> which is, heapsort vs merge sort, hence the time differences and consing differences
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22:11:52 <stassats`> but no, who's got time to figuring things out, it's better to weed out some internal function, which appears to work today instead
22:12:21 <Tuplanolla> I have a hard time getting started with Common Lisp.
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22:12:43 <Tuplanolla> I can't figure out how to access documentation in the repl.
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22:13:09 <francogrex> ok; I entered the "sorting" argument without a real purpose. I wanted this let's say the array is sorted in whatever good way. from the 3 counting functions which one you expected would be more efficient: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141313#2
22:13:33 <francogrex> Tuplanolla: describe
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22:13:55 <Tuplanolla> It spits out a bunch of nonsense.
22:14:15 <stassats`> and even calling (stable-sort vector #'>) without any declarations, will give you the same result in that timing test, but repeated calls are faster with declarations
22:14:30 <stassats`> Tuplanolla: are you using slime?
22:14:46 <Tuplanolla> No. I just installed clisp.
22:14:47 <pjb> Tuplanolla: (documentation 'cos 'function) (documentation *print-pretty* 'variable) (documentation (find-package "CL") 'package) etc.
22:14:49 <francogrex> it's not nonsense, describe will give you details. documentation also
22:15:02 <pjb> Tuplanolla: but it may return nil each time, since implementations may forget the doc.
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22:15:41 <pjb> Tuplanolla: there's also (apropos "string-or-regexp-in-some-implementation) and apropos-list
22:16:28 <Tuplanolla> I tried those and got nothing useful. Only implementation details.
22:16:41 <White_Flame> huh, in my default CLISP, doing (describe '+) tries and fails to hit the CLHS at MIT, spewing all sorts of web gunk, and never a documentation string
22:16:44 <francogrex> (describe 'cos) is clisp gives you a bunch of info all very useful... saying it's nonsense means you don't read well
22:16:52 <stassats`> Tuplanolla: then you are out of luck
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22:16:58 <pjb> Tuplanolla: apropos functions also take a package parameter to restrict the search to a given package.
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22:17:21 <pjb> Tuplanolla: what question do you want answered by search the in-line doc?
22:17:25 <stassats`> Tuplanolla: consider using http://l1sp.org/cl/list for accessing documentation
22:17:31 <stassats`> if you are not willing to use slime, that is
22:17:58 <francogrex> it even gives you the hyperspec links
22:18:33 <pjb> When clisp is well configured, describe even opens that hyperspec link!
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22:19:03 <Tuplanolla> Is asking for offline documentation too much? Something like (? 'map) telling me "(map f x) applies the function f over the functor x".
22:19:31 <stassats`> not all function can be easily described in one line
22:19:33 <pjb> (documentation 'mapcar 'function) -> "Apply FUNCTION to successive elements of LIST. Return list of FUNCTION return values." ; what else do you need?
22:19:39 <White_Flame> Tuplanolla: is this approximately what you get? http://paste.lisp.org/display/141314
22:19:44 <KP_> you can get the  hyperspec off lineee can't you?
22:19:51 <Tuplanolla> Yes, White_Flame.
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22:19:54 <stassats`> KP_: yes, you can
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22:20:22 <White_Flame> Tuplanolla: buried in there is a working link: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/fun_sincm_coscm_tan.html
22:20:41 <White_Flame> though I always have the CLHS open in a browser, and don't bother with editor-level docs
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22:20:57 <jaimef> chls.el
22:21:02 <stassats`> in slime, it's just C-c C-d h, and it can even open a local copy in w3m
22:21:35 <Tuplanolla> It's time to step up the heresy and confess avoiding emacs.
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22:21:58 <francogrex> or hyperspec.el
22:21:59 <pjb> In slime, to get (mapcar fun &rest lists)  you only need to type (mapcar SPC.
22:22:10 <pjb> and the arguments are displayed in the minibuffer.
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22:22:39 <White_Flame> Tuplanolla: I'm not an emacs fan myself, but it is the best lisp IDE I've used
22:22:52 <stassats`> pjb: that doesn't sound the right arglist!
22:22:53 <White_Flame> (with SLIME, of course)
22:23:39 <pjb> right, I get actuall (mapcar function list &rest other-lists).
22:24:09 <White_Flame> need a regex-like distinction between + and * there
22:24:13 <stassats`> there, can't get misinformation slip through!
22:24:33 <Tuplanolla> I still have no idea how to configure this. It appears the clisp-doc package didn't actually contain documentation.
22:24:57 <White_Flame> Tuplanolla: also, if you're learning CL, it's best to go from a tutorial book
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22:25:08 <White_Flame> the language reference is incredibly opaque to newcomers
22:25:17 <stassats`> reading CLHS from describe isn't the best experience
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22:25:55 <Tuplanolla> I'd rather not. I'm already familiar with MIT Scheme and fluent with Haskell.
22:26:27 <francogrex> get a copy of the hyperpec offline: ftp://ftp.lispworks.com/pub/software_tools/reference/ put it next to your favourite lisp
22:26:27 *jaimef* looks for ways to limit the total number of bordeaux threads as a variable
22:26:33 <stassats`> then you are making a mistaking being so confident that you can get around just with CLHS
22:26:34 <Tuplanolla> I'll look for a book if I can get this thing installed first.
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22:27:07 <White_Flame> francogrex: yeah, I also even modified mine to give direct links to the dictionary sections right from the contents page
22:27:14 <KP_> if you're a Haskell programmer pick up "Lisp In Small PIeces"
22:27:15 <stassats`> if you want just to translate programs, then fine, but if you want to write them like a CL person would, you need to read a book
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22:27:29 <Tuplanolla> Sounds good, KP_.
22:28:23 <stassats`> lisp in small pieces describes compilers in scheme, not CL
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22:28:31 <stassats`> scheme compilers
22:28:43 <stassats`> minion: please tell Tuplanolla about PCL
22:28:44 <minion> Tuplanolla: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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22:29:09 <francogrex> KP_: he explicitly and specifically thanked you; indirectly NOT thanking/ignoring the rest of us
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22:29:32 <stassats`> francogrex: especially considering that it wasn't the right book
22:29:43 <Tuplanolla> I could list all your names if that made you feel good.
22:30:21 <stassats`> minion: PAIP?
22:30:21 <minion> PAIP: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/PAIP
22:30:30 <stassats`> and this is something to read after PCL
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22:31:17 <Tuplanolla> I don't really know if I want Common Lisp either. I'm just hoping to find something like Haskell without the burden of the type system.
22:31:43 <stassats`> common lisp isn't like haskell at all
22:31:58 <Tuplanolla> It's the most practical functional language I know, so that's close enough.
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22:32:15 <jaimef> ahh variable is NIL
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22:32:26 <KP_> scheme is a lisp dialect if someone wants to learn how to think about problem solving in lisp, it's a good start. IT's not CL but it's quite related
22:33:01 <KP_> the books that have helped me the most in learning LIsp are all scheme books :)
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22:33:22 <stassats`> no, learning another language is not the way to learn
22:33:55 <KP_> hence 'dialect'
22:33:58 <stassats`> jaimef: there's no such thing as bordeaux thread, it's just a wrapper for implementation dependent threads
22:34:26 <stassats`> KP_: this channel is about Common Lisp, and it's pretty distinct from Scheme
22:34:46 <jaimef> sigh
22:35:05 <KP_> I don't disagree. I'm just saying that the best way for someone who is completely new to the lisp family of languages isn't necessarily to start with CL
22:35:09 tcr [~tcr@176.41.81.49] has joined #lisp
22:35:10 <jaimef> there is no lisp, it's all just a wrapper for the ISA of your cpu architecture
22:35:17 <francogrex> "without the burden of the type system" - ok then it's worth giving common lispa try
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22:35:43 <White_Flame> jaimef: bt doesn't offer any sort of utilities or thread management of its own, in other words
22:35:55 <stassats`> jaimef: so, i'm not sure what would limiting the number of threads mean
22:36:02 <stassats`> the Nth make-thread will fail?
22:36:03 <jaimef> White_Flame: which limits it's use :P
22:36:07 <Tuplanolla> I mentioned knowing MIT Scheme, KP_.
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22:36:14 <stassats`> wait? what?
22:36:14 <White_Flame> jaimef: its use is a compatibility wrapper
22:36:22 <jaimef> yeap
22:36:32 <jaimef> I was using sbcl specifics until feedback here said to use bt
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22:36:36 <White_Flame> any thread management still has to be built, or grab a larger library (which will likely be backed by bt)
22:36:37 <francogrex> and it's important to keep this article in mind: http://norvig.com/21-days.html for those who just hope reading the specs and documentation is good enough to get you going
22:36:56 <stassats`> "wait? what?" wasn't an expletive, i meant, "should it "wait" until there are less threads?"
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22:37:03 <jaimef> https://gist.github.com/9124739
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22:37:26 <KP_> so then what book do recommend for learning CL for someone who doesn't know lisp?
22:37:37 <jaimef> if the server list is too big threads stall. so looking for runtime configuration to set max thread pool size
22:37:50 <stassats`> Practical Common Lisp, which was mentioned above
22:37:51 <jaimef> KP_ "little schemer" is pretty good start imho
22:38:16 <stassats`> oh goddamned, not another scheme book for learning CL
22:38:21 <KP_> wow -- wasn't the discussion just about how "scheme isn't lisp don't recommend scheme books?" :)
22:38:27 <jaimef> formerly known as "the little lisper"
22:38:34 <White_Flame> jaimef:  There are no thread pools there...
22:38:46 <jaimef> White_Flame: exactly :P
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22:38:50 <White_Flame> when you launch a thread, it's the straight OS thread launch
22:38:56 <jaimef> it only exists on my wish list
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22:39:05 <WarWeasle> Does quicklisp have a preferred way to run makefiles?
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22:39:21 <stassats`> quicklisp doesn't concern itself with makefils
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22:39:24 <jaimef> White_Flame: so a counter + join?
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22:39:52 <Tuplanolla> Can we get back to installing CLHS?
22:39:53 <Alfr> jaimef, http://common-lisp.net/project/eager-future/ may interest you.
22:40:03 <jaimef> Alfr: thanks, was reading up on that
22:40:19 <francogrex> Tuplanolla: yes the link I gave you is good enough
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22:41:02 <Tuplanolla> Does the archive contain integration instructions, francogrex?
22:41:45 <stassats`> jaimef: what do you want to do?
22:42:05 <jaimef> Take.. Over... The... World.. Pinky
22:42:13 <jaimef> s/pinky/stassts`/
22:42:41 <jaimef> "have a runtime option for limiting the number of threads spawned at a time to avoid timeouts"
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22:42:44 <stassats`> jaimef: what do you want to do besides being not funny?
22:43:23 <jaimef> since clearly a lighter event like model may be needed.
22:43:37 <jaimef> threads are probably too heavy to spin up for n-number servers at once.
22:43:42 <francogrex> Tuplanolla: http://cogtool.hcii.cs.cmu.edu/trac/browser/tags/1.0beta15/lisp/clisp-2.35-mac/emacs/clhs.el?rev=1280
22:43:59 <francogrex> but you will need emacs
22:44:19 <White_Flame> jaimef: but isn't that the point of a thread pool?  so you don't have the thread start-up cost
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22:44:24 <White_Flame> among other things
22:44:40 <jaimef> White_Flame: yes, that's one way.
22:44:42 <francogrex> set the clh.el to point t your local files etc... seriously are you taking your PC with you to outer space where no internet connections
22:44:53 -!- kbtr [~kbtr@zncb.io] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
22:44:56 <jaimef> or just download the while thing with curl
22:45:17 <Tuplanolla> Thanks for the help. I don't want to use emacs though.
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22:45:29 <stassats`> Tuplanolla: then there's nothing you can do
22:45:44 <stassats`> unless you want to use some of the vim slime clones
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22:46:47 <Tuplanolla> I'd just like to fix the describe function.
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22:46:48 <francogrex> vim makes me want to throw up ... but anyway not wanting to use emacs is strange
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22:47:14 <stassats`> jaimef: it's probably better to assign each server one thread, not each url one thread
22:47:16 <stassats`> and to assign to one thread more than one server
22:47:18 ineiros [~itniemin@bayesianconspiracy.org] has joined #lisp
22:47:19 <jaimef> so each thread should pool over the urls.
22:47:30 <jaimef> nice.
22:47:31 <stassats`> just split the jobs
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22:47:37 <jaimef> jsonip.org lol
22:47:43 <jaimef> site running on emacs....
22:47:56 <francogrex> then you'll need to rebuild from source (clisp)
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22:48:44 <Tuplanolla> What a hassle. I'll just stick to Haskell.
22:48:49 <stassats`> good
22:48:54 <francogrex> you should
22:49:09 <KP_> you guys are cold :)
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22:49:15 <jaimef> he's right
22:49:15 <stassats`> we don't need weak spirits learning CL
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22:49:20 <White_Flame> Tuplanolla: is there anything wrong with just viewing the spec docs in a browser?
22:49:23 *jaimef* wanders back to elisp :P
22:49:43 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #lisp
22:49:45 <WarWeasle> And we wonder why we can't have nice things.
22:49:53 <White_Flame> given the formatting of the pages, having it dump to commandline doesn't seem that great
22:50:01 <Tuplanolla> It'd be nice to have everything in the same terminal window. It shouldn't be that complicated.
22:50:08 <jaimef> if only it was refactored into something of the modern era
22:50:14 <Tuplanolla> It's just that system administration makes me sick and I avoid it whenever possible.
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22:50:56 <White_Flame> Tuplanolla: I'd think having a web browser built in to CLISP wouldn't count not that complicated
22:51:01 <White_Flame> +as
22:51:13 <stassats`> i'm not clear what are you complaining against and to whom is it directed?
22:51:15 <francogrex> brainfuck has pretty good documentation, let's all use brainfuck then
22:51:40 <Tuplanolla> I was thinking of plain text documentation for a plain text programming language.
22:51:43 <stassats`> you want someone else to have already configured something to your liking? though luck
22:52:11 jayne [~jayne@freenode/staff/jayne] has joined #lisp
22:52:12 <White_Flame> Tuplanolla: The documentation is large, interconnected, and brutally specific (as in, it's a technical specification)
22:52:23 <stassats`> it's the 21st century, we have hyperlinked documentation
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22:53:03 <White_Flame> and again, the CLHS is good for a reference if you understand all the CL-specific implications.  Not so much as a learning experience
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22:53:15 <stassats`> and CL has one of the best spec formats i've seen out there
22:53:26 <jaimef> Guy Steel's book?
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22:53:58 <stassats`> what about Guy Steele's book?
22:54:10 <jaimef> the great standard for cl
22:54:29 <stassats`> well, it's not a standard, and it's not hyperlinked, nothing great about that
22:54:47 -!- tcr [~tcr@176.41.81.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
22:54:55 <jaimef> I can search on a single page for anything
22:56:05 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
22:56:13 <francogrex> what do you mean on a signle page?
22:56:18 <francogrex> single
22:57:00 <francogrex> like that: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/Contents.htm ?
22:57:32 <francogrex> or here http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm ?
22:57:44 <stassats`> is this the time of the day when nobody understand each other?
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22:58:42 <francogrex> people are mentionng single pages... here you have all CL on a single page in the hyperspecs
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23:01:54 <francogrex> anyway... let's get back to my counting functions: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141315 which is better cnt-0, cnt-1 or just plain cnt ?
23:02:48 <stassats`> why is 10000000 hardcoded? why are you using DO?
23:04:22 zajn [~zajn@airbears2-136-152-142-38.AirBears2.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp
23:04:47 <francogrex> a simple test (hardcoding only in this case)... I thought that cnt would be quite efficient since it returns right after the last occurence... but seems not the case.
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23:05:33 <francogrex> I mean the looping doesn't have tocontinue all the way through the million iterations
23:05:43 <pjb> jaimef: modern era user interface: http://www.secretgeometry.com/apps/cathode/
23:05:57 <pjb> Requires MacOSX and openGL! :-)
23:06:24 <jaimef> pjb yeah old news :P
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23:08:08 <francogrex> count-if still beats them all
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23:11:14 <stassats`> francogrex: how about http://paste.lisp.org/display/141315#1 ?
23:12:56 <francogrex> stassats`: the fastest ever! is this based on binary search?
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23:13:14 <stassats`> no...
23:13:55 <stassats`> if you add (declare (optimize speed) (simple-vector data)), it'll be even faster
23:15:36 <francogrex> my God: 0.01 sec
23:15:47 <stassats`> binary search will be faster still
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23:22:31 <jaimef> I mean like a pdf you can search through DocView
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23:23:01 <stassats`> searching is not the same as following hyperlinks
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23:41:15 <stassats`> francogrex: i'm bound to get it wrong, but: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141315#2
23:41:20 <stassats`> 0.000 seconds of real time
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23:44:49 <stassats`> or even: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141315#3
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23:47:40 <francogrex> 0.000 seconds of real time
23:47:51 <francogrex> indeed. time to study it
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23:49:13 *francogrex* bows to stassats` 
23:49:44 <stassats`> it can be faster if you can make specialized versions which use >=
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23:50:38 <fe[nl]ix> hi tcr :)
23:51:45 <stassats`> francogrex: as in http://paste.lisp.org/display/141315#4
23:51:50 <francogrex> faster than 0 will enter into negative time
23:52:15 <stassats`> you can always make a larger vector or run it more than once
23:52:16 <francogrex> turn the clock backwards
23:52:24 <_death> how about (* 100 (+ 29 (- i j))).. approx
23:52:52 <stassats`> that assumes good random distribution
23:53:06 <_death> that's what was given :)
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23:53:26 <stassats`> but RANDOM isn't required to be any good
23:53:44 <_death> neither does "approx"
23:54:13 <stassats`> then just returning 4 will work too
23:54:22 <stassats`> for some values of approximation
23:54:50 <_death> just like RANDOM can return 42
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00:02:45 <stassats`> and it looks like interpolation search could be better for even distribution
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00:05:30 <Crystal27>  Here some videos. I hope you like them! http://bit.do/my_videos69
00:05:45 <stassats`> Crystal27: thanks
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00:08:10 <zRecursive> spam ?
00:08:28 <stassats`> probably
00:08:44 <stassats`> reportedly
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00:12:39 <White_Flame> Somebody could try following the link to see if it's on some affiliate site that has a reporting functionality for punishing spammers.  I vote "not me"
00:12:58 <stassats`> interpolation search is indeed faster, but it doesn't seem to work with <= test, only with =
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00:17:38 <francogrex> it's worthwile to make a permanent lisp-paste out of that binary search & count for future refs... xwhich I'll probably do tomorrow. getting late here. good night all.
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01:57:06 <jaimef> SIGINFO on sbcl is nice
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01:59:15 <cheryllium> might be a stupid question, but how do I run a commonqt program? for instance the tutorial, I did (load "conv.lisp") followed by (main). It said function main is undefined, however it is defined at the bottom of conv.lisp so I am confused
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01:59:35 <Bike> cheryllium: check your packages?
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02:00:10 <jaimef> cheryllium: nice would love to see how you are doing that
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02:03:53 <Kate23>  Hi! I give you some videos. I hope you like! http://bit.do/my_videos69
02:04:08 <Xach> cheryllium: thanks for making an installer
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02:08:01 <cheryllium> no problem :) it was a good learning experience
02:08:10 <cheryllium> (it is here for those interested http://cheryllium.wordpress.com/2014/02/20/commonqt-installer-for-windows/ )
02:08:28 <Xach> cheryllium: is there any chance of lumping qt into it, too, to make an all-in-one installer?
02:08:59 <jonh_> cheryllium: thanks
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02:09:30 <cheryllium> yes. I am working on that. google "nsis embedding installers", unfortunately simply running the qt exe does nothing so I will have to figure out why
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02:10:53 <Xach> cheryllium: cool. thanks again. i love it when people make hard things easier.
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02:17:31 <jaimef> cheryllium: thanks that's nice
02:17:47 <jaimef> finally move off go for portable gui apps
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02:21:36 <cheryllium> how do I start a qt application from the repl?
02:21:43 <jaimef> main?
02:22:15 <cheryllium> I am trying to run this https://gitorious.org/commonqt/commonqt/source/eea9d0bfa876446fcebc814920159d9fb226105f:tutorial/conv.lisp
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02:22:30 <cheryllium> I did (ql:quickload :qt) then (load "conv.lisp") and then (main)
02:22:37 <cheryllium> got an error undefined function: main
02:22:43 <cheryllium> no errors on the first two commands
02:22:47 <jaimef> (in-package <your pkg>)?
02:22:55 <Bike> and you're sure it's not (qt-conv::main)?
02:23:15 <cheryllium> ah thanks Bike
02:23:17 <cheryllium> but oh dear
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02:23:54 <cheryllium> "The procedure entry point ?adoptLayout@QLayout@@IAE_NPAV1@@Z could not be located in the dynamic link library C:\Program Files (x86)\CommonQt\smokeqtgui.dll
02:23:56 <cheryllium> "
02:24:41 <cheryllium> any idea what this "Entry Point Not Found" error means...?
02:25:19 <jaimef> qtmain?
02:25:21 <Bike> yeah, it means it can't find that symbol in your copy of smoke, meaning it doesn't know the function's entry point, so it can't call the function
02:25:39 <jaimef> nm -a smokeqtgui.dll;; or windows equiv
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02:26:01 <Bike> maybe you have the wrong version or something, dunno
02:26:15 <cheryllium> this is unfortunate, I am using the dlls from stassat's site
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02:27:21 <Bike> demangled this corresponds to: "protected: BOOL __thiscall QLayout::adoptLayout(class QLayout *)" (thanks, web interface to a demangler)
02:27:47 <Bike> basically, it can't find this C++ method in the dll.
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02:29:32 <cheryllium> what could be some reasons for this? perhaps conv.lisp is old? is stassats here?
02:29:50 <cheryllium> guess not... should I bother him?
02:30:15 <Bike> it might be old yeah. if you know qt (i don't) you might check all the methods the file uses are still in.
02:30:23 <Bike> stassats is here reasonably often, might have to wait though.
02:31:43 <cheryllium> it is probably that the file is obsolete, I trust stassats would not release something with such a grave error in the build.
02:32:14 <jaimef> cheryllium: try winmain
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02:32:24 <jaimef> iirc on windows it was winmain
02:33:05 <Bike> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/177429 wow, the equivalent of nm is a pita
02:33:14 <jaimef> ouch
02:33:18 <cheryllium> really? from a stackoverflow answer it said "DUMPBIN"
02:33:23 <jaimef> hmm gnu tools support windows
02:33:27 <jaimef> binutils rather
02:33:32 <cheryllium> though I just tried DUMPBIN and it said command not found so...
02:33:51 <cheryllium> jaimef what do you mean by try winmain?
02:33:57 <Bike> jaimef: "main" is a lisp function, here.
02:34:10 <jaimef> thought it was looking for the entry point in the .dll
02:34:13 <Bike> cheryllium: apparently dumpbin comes with vc++, not by default.
02:34:22 <cheryllium> ah ok thanks
02:34:23 <jaimef> e.g. a qt app on windows has to have an entry point
02:34:26 <Bike> jaimef: an entry point to a function. it's a dll, it doesn't have a main.
02:34:40 <jaimef> k
02:34:46 <Bike> it can't find the adoptLayout method i pasted.
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02:35:16 <Bike> anyway looking at the symbol table probably won't help other than to confirm that something went wrong, so
02:35:45 <jaimef> (clack:clackup (lambda (env) (declare (ignore env)) '(200 (:content-type "text/plain") (format "Hello from ~A" hunchentoot:remote-addr)))) ;; not dereferencing this properly
02:36:10 <Bike> you probably don't want that format form quoted
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02:36:24 <jaimef> oh the '
02:36:30 <jaimef> so I need to unquote. gotcha
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02:37:22 <jaimef> this reminds me of a weird language I had to use in my editor, emacs.
02:37:32 <cheryllium> I'll write my own app then, been meaning to figure out commonqt for a while
02:37:47 *jaimef* use to do qt. it's changed a lot
02:37:50 <cheryllium> unfortunately this page was the only commonqt tutorial I could find http://common-lisp.net/project/commonqt/#id106003
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02:43:03 <jaimef> Bike do I want to unquote format? or the variable for hunchentoot?
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02:49:34 <cheryllium> anyone here wanna help me write a commonqt test app?
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02:53:53 <Vivitron```> jaimef: your format seems to be missing its first argument
02:54:00 <jaimef> right nil
02:54:30 <cheryllium> ok, this is a bit of a problem. I typed this into command line: (qt::with-main-window (qt::window (qt::#_new qt::QWidget))) and got the same entry point error as before.
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02:55:26 *jaimef* watches slime spawn dozens of exception buffers
02:56:29 <jaimef> (clack:clackup (lambda (env) (declare (ignore env)) `(200 (:content-type "text/plain") (format t "Hello from ~A" ,HUNCHENTOOT:REMOTE-ADDR)))) ;; this look better?
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03:00:18 <cheryllium> if stassats comes online later please tell me, I'll be lurking here in the meantime
03:00:19 <Bike> jaimef: do you actually want to return the format form rather than evaluating it? taht seems weird
03:00:41 <jaimef> no, I'm just cheating and not reading the docs
03:00:55 <Bike> cheryllium: you can leave a message for him with minion's memo function, or with memoserv
03:00:55 <jaimef> want to dereference it at runtime properly
03:01:06 <Bike> jaimef: i'd do (list 200 '(:content-type "text/plan") (format t...)) then
03:01:18 <jaimef> ok
03:01:31 <Bike> though you probably want format nil
03:01:50 <cheryllium> is there documentation somewhere for minion's functions and how we use the bot?
03:02:00 <Bike> minion: help
03:02:00 <minion> There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
03:03:14 <cheryllium> thanks Bike
03:03:24 <cheryllium> I'm curious, is there a reason your name is Bike?
03:04:16 <Bike> yes
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03:06:20 <cheryllium> care to share?
03:07:04 <Bike> it's the name of a character in a comic
03:07:11 <zRecursive> Can minion eval lisp ?
03:07:19 <Bike> no.
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03:12:29 <jaimef> repl helps trying every permutation
03:12:45 <cheryllium> wouldn't it be rather unsafe if minion could eval lisp?
03:13:12 <Bike> it's reasonably simple to make an evalbot that doesn't break everything. it just lowers the channel signal-to-noise.
03:15:06 <jaimef> is there any common alternative location for parens in keyboard layouts?
03:15:45 <zRecursive> yeah, #haskell is bit noisy for its lambdabot
03:15:57 <Vivitron```> jaimef: I swap () with [], but then it's a hassle using a stock keyboard
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03:17:09 <jaimef> https://gist.github.com/9128134 love getting errors on a function I've been using fine.
03:17:17 <jaimef> (clack:stop *) works fine, then stops working.
03:19:29 <cheryllium> here is a screenshot of my errors http://imgur.com/a/yUebT
03:19:34 <cheryllium> well, error in the singular
03:19:39 <cheryllium> I guess I'll memo this to stassats
03:20:29 <jaimef> cheryllium: any chance you are on 64bit windows?
03:20:34 <cheryllium> I am
03:20:52 <cheryllium> wait, is that a problem?
03:21:07 <jaimef> I've seen problems before with windows and 64bit vs 32bit app
03:21:12 <jaimef> had to link the program to run in "compat" mode
03:21:18 <jaimef> rather "settings" it
03:21:36 <jaimef> perhaps the lisp binary needs to be told to run in compat mode?
03:21:47 <jaimef> a guess
03:23:02 <cheryllium> hmm, this is interesting, lemme see if my sbcl is 64 bit
03:23:39 <cheryllium> well, seeing is sbcl is in Program Files (x86) and not Program Files, I think my sbcl is 32bit
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03:24:02 <jaimef> ok
03:24:17 <jaimef> I would open it in finder, and set it to run in compat mode and see if that helps
03:24:25 <jaimef> the smokeqt libs are probably 32bit as well
03:25:11 <cheryllium> the thing is, all of this is 32bit, I'm pretty sure my qt install, sbcl, the dlls are all 32bit
03:27:15 <cheryllium> minion: memo for stassats: hey stas, I installed commonqt and such but I am getting a strange error when trying to run an application. here is a screenshot http://imgur.com/a/yUebT do you have any idea what could be causing it? thanks
03:27:15 <minion> Remembered. I'll tell stassats when he/she/it next speaks.
03:27:53 <jaimef> cheryllium: shot in the dark
03:27:58 <cheryllium> it was a good guess
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03:54:59 <jaimef> finally!
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03:56:35 <jaimef> (clack:clackup (lambda (env) `(200 (:content-type "text/plain") (,(format nil "hello from clack with: ~A" (hunchentoot:remote-addr hunchentoot:*request*))))))
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04:03:47 <Betty30>  You can find funny videos here. http://bit.do/my_videos69
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04:19:57 <jaimef> how to prevent this from exiting promptly as a compiled binary? https://gist.github.com/9128681
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04:22:47 <Bike> What's clackup do? start a thread or loop or what?
04:23:23 <jaimef> hmm checking.
04:25:39 <jaimef> guess a repl launched would work.
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05:18:25 <sjl> is there an equivalent to ~D in a (format) control string that will complain when it gets passed something that's not a number?
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05:19:05 <sjl> e.g.: I want (format nil "~d" "what") to explode instead of being silently wrong
05:21:39 <jaimef> coerce?
05:21:59 <Bike> i think format's too lenient for that
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05:22:47 <sjl> jaimef: the problem is when I'm an idiot and screw up the order of the format chars vs the arguments, I want lisp to tell me
05:23:37 <sjl> like I accidentally do (format "~A: ~D" (coerce number 'float) label)
05:23:45 <sjl> coerce doesn't help there
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05:58:30 <jaimef> https://gist.github.com/9129518 need to figure out a better way to prevent it from exiting instead of sleep.
06:01:36 <Adlai> what's the Right Way to run "npm install" via asdf when my system is loaded?
06:01:56 <Adlai> ideally having this as the command executed to "compile" the package.json component
06:02:06 <jaimef> npm? for node?
06:02:11 <Adlai> jaimef: yes
06:02:50 <Bike> jaimef: (loop)? i guess?
06:02:53 <Adlai> some tasks are better accomplished by foreign workers than natives
06:03:16 <Bike> Adlai: i think define a method on asdf:perform
06:03:41 <pillton> jaimef: Wait for the thread to terminate?
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06:04:03 <Naomi19>  Hi! I give you some videos. I hope you like! http://bit.do/my_videos69
06:04:27 <jaimef> Bike thanks loop sounds good
06:04:28 <Adlai> Bike: and specialize it on a custom-defined component type?
06:04:44 <Adlai> or I guess the quick lazy solution is to specialize it on my entire system
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06:05:09 <Adlai> but the advantage of having asdf treat "npm install" as the compilation of package.json is that it'll re-run that when my npm deps change
06:05:38 <Bike> Adlai: i was thinking on an eql specializer, but yeah you could define a component type for your system too
06:06:22 <Adlai> Bike: just for package.json
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06:52:40 <jaimef> https://gist.github.com/9129918 hmm how do I get (room) to print out here? I'm getting nil
06:53:56 <Bike> jaimef: (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (room))
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06:59:51 <jaimef> Bike thanks
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07:18:09 <jaimef> https://gist.github.com/9130101 ok works. 404's cause bombing
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07:27:42 <splittist> jaimef: do you need hunchentoot? I thought clack came with toot built-in.
07:27:52 <jaimef> it does
07:27:57 <jaimef> I need to move to use env
07:28:02 <jaimef> vs huchentoot
07:32:34 <nitro_idiot_> jaimef: The third element of a returning list should be a list of strings.
07:33:36 <nitro_idiot_> In 404 case, it seems it returns a string as the body, not a list of strings
07:34:04 <nitro_idiot_> `(404 (:content-type "text/plain") (,(format nil "~A Not found" (getf env :path-info))))) should work
07:34:53 <Bike> you'll need to make the room output a list too, then.
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08:03:37 <Crystal27>  Hi! I give you some videos. I hope you like! http://bit.do/my_videos69
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08:19:36 <theos> quicklisp really makes life easy
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08:19:48 <theos> ,Xach++
08:20:10 <loke> theos: Easy and enjoyable. Don't forget enjoyable
08:20:24 <theos> loke yes! enjoyable too
08:21:20 *theos* just installed hunchentoot. looks good 
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08:22:28 <loke> I like hunchentoot
08:23:03 <xificurC> when I C-c C-d in slime I get a Describe prompt but if I input anything and hit enter I get an error No Lisp subprocess; see variable `inferior-lisp-buffer', which is nil, but dont know why
08:23:11 <xificurC> I have this in my .emacs
08:23:12 <xificurC> (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl")
08:23:12 <xificurC> (load "C:\\quicklisp\\slime-helper.el")
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08:51:22 <Adlai> Bike: so my final version is more concise than even I expected initially... just (:package.json)
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09:36:49 <stassats`> is nobody really willing to be an ECL maintainer?
09:36:49 <minion> stassats`, memo from cheryllium: hey stas, I installed commonqt and such but I am getting a strange error when trying to run an application. here is a screenshot http://imgur.com/a/yUebT do you have any idea what could be causing it? thanks
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09:40:10 <stassats`> maybe nobody just uses ECL?
09:40:47 <H4ns> stassats`: seemingly so, at least nobody who is serious enough about it to take up on the maintainership.
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09:42:25 <stassats`> i'm tempted, but being already involved with SBCL, and not actually using ECL reduce the temptation
09:43:10 <stassats`> maybe people think that maintaining is hard?
09:43:14 <flip214> (not (equal "willing to" "have enough time"))
09:43:52 <H4ns> stassats`: i guess that a maintainer would at least have to be a regular user
09:44:13 <H4ns> stassats`: i find it rather hard to be a good maintainer for something that i don't use, and i try to get rid of such maintainerships.
09:44:33 <flip214> hmmm, perhaps we could crowd-fund pjb for maintaining ECL.
09:44:45 <stassats`> flip214: there's currently 0 time spent by anybody, i'm sure having at least just more than 0 is not that hard
09:45:07 <stassats`> H4ns: right, in reality i'm just sad that my patch is not applied
09:45:39 <stassats`> flip214: so that he turns it into clisp? no thanks
09:46:09 <stassats`> but, that is an idea, clisp is not well maintained either
09:46:26 <flip214> well, if it would only consist of "accept pull request", "accept pull request", "start tests", "cut a release" it sounds easy.
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09:47:03 <flip214> but I guess it wouldn't make sense without some technical background to fix bugs - and the _time_ to fix them!
09:47:17 <stassats`> start easy, learn along the way
09:47:41 <flip214> the most active seems to be https://github.com/ageneau/ecl-android
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10:03:48 <Amy24>  Hi! I give you some videos. I hope you like! http://bit.do/my_videos69
10:03:56 <stassats`> Amy24: i do like them, thanks
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10:19:37 <flip214> stassats`: do you have a github clone of an ecl repository, with the patch applied?
10:19:52 <flip214> we just need _some_ common repo to work together...
10:20:13 <flip214> I hope to find some time for ECL in the next few months, too.
10:21:43 <stassats`> no, it's in the bug tracker
10:22:24 <stassats`> https://sourceforge.net/p/ecls/bugs/276/
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12:04:51 <katy18>  Here some videos. I hope you like them! http://bit.do/my_videos69
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12:06:54 <p_l> they switched networks completely
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12:12:44 <flip214> fighting against windmills ....
12:12:57 <flip214> although, as long as they're only IPv4, you might be lucky ;/
12:13:17 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.162.211.11] has joined #lisp
12:14:15 <p_l> I dislike IP bans in general. Makes me recall a certain #debian op who kickbanned an entire hackerspace because one person on its NAT mentioned "Ubuntu" in a question
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12:15:09 <nightfly_> They are fairly useless too, what with aws and all.
12:15:35 <Zhivago> You could require registered nicks.
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12:17:52 <Xach> Woo hoo, I will be talking in Berlin
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12:18:09 <H4ns> Xach: \o/
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12:57:39 <xificurC> is the time complexity of a plist lookup O(1)?
12:57:49 <stassats`> O(n)
12:58:11 <stassats`> hastables will be O(1) amortized
12:58:59 <H4ns> xificurC: a plist is just a list used in a particular way
12:59:37 <xificurC> stassats`, H4ns, thanks.
13:00:53 <Zhivago> Well, if they use linear probing.
13:01:48 <stassats`> there's no better practical way for plists
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13:08:47 <Zhivago> xif: For some plists, the lookup is O(1).
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13:13:53 <zickzackv> Xach: Yeah
13:13:59 *zickzackv* a bit late :/
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13:22:26 <xificurC> Zhivago: i was thinking about a symbol's plist, e.g. creatinga couple of properties like (setf (get my-symbol key1) value1) and then looking it up
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13:24:12 <stassats`> that's plists too
13:24:24 <stassats`> and symbol properties isn't really a good mechanism for anything nowadays
13:24:49 <Zhivago> The trick with O(1) plist lookup is to ensure that the list is only one long.
13:24:58 <xificurC> stassats`: thanks
13:25:12 <stassats`> Zhivago: that's still O(n)
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13:26:07 <xificurC> I am trying to write a DSL for generating some VBA code and trying to come up how to code it up
13:26:09 <Zhivago> Not for the type of plists of length one. :)
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13:26:51 <ggole> That only works if the measure under consideration isn't the length of the plist
13:27:16 <ggole> (Which sometimes, it isn't.)
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13:42:36 <Malice> Hello, tomorrow I will go to Italy for a week and I will have no internet connection. I want to spend my free time there to learn Lisp. I have C++ programming background. What free books could you recommend? What should I install to be self-reliable? I have a laptop with elementaryOS 32-bit.
13:42:37 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp
13:42:56 <H4ns> Malice: practical common lisp
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13:44:09 <net4all> Malice: sicp perhaps?
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13:44:48 <Malice> net4all: what is sicp?
13:45:12 <stassats`> minion: sicp?
13:45:12 <minion> sicp: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at <http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/> (HTML), <http://www.neilvandyke.org/sicp-texi/> (Texinfo), and <http://twb.ath.cx/ebooks/sicp.pdf> (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at <http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/>
13:45:16 <Malice> I installed SBCL, slime and emacs, but sadly, I don't really know Lisp, so idk how to check if it's working...
13:45:21 <Denommus> Malice: it is a book covering the basics of programming that was used in MIT
13:45:25 <xificurC> Malice: http://cliki.net/Lisp%20books
13:45:28 <Adlai> Malice: I suggest you spend a few minutes/hours setting up quicklisp&co while you still have an internet connection
13:45:33 <Denommus> Malice: but SICP uses Scheme, not Common Lisp
13:46:28 <xificurC> I really liked Land of Lisp as a beginner
13:46:29 <net4all> Malice: Denommus: true, but it still teaches many usefull things for anyone new to lisp
13:46:49 <Malice> xificurC: am I wrong, or is Land of Lisp on-line book?(the one I can't download as .pdf)?
13:47:13 <nightfly_> You can get a physical copy
13:48:07 <xificurC> Malice: i dont think you can legally download it
13:48:19 <Denommus> Malice: Land of Lisp has a e-book, but you must buy it
13:48:48 <Malice> Then it's a no.
13:49:06 <Malice> I found these books:
13:49:08 <ggole> The 99 problems are a nice light problem set to work through
13:49:14 <Malice> Common Lisp - An Interactive Approach and Common Lisp - A Gentle Introduction To Symbolic Computation
13:49:45 <newcup> Malice: offline copy of CLHS might be good to have too
13:50:48 <Malice> Basically, my whole question is asked here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21935903/how-to-prepare-for-learning-lisp-off-line
13:51:10 <Malice> If anyone wants to help me and have more insight, then I provided link. Thanks in advance to anyone willing to help.
13:51:26 <Denommus> Malice: do you know other languages?
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13:51:45 <Denommus> Malice: if so, you could try Practical Common Lisp. It is free, it is easy, and it assumes you already know other languages
13:51:55 <Denommus> minion: pcl?
13:51:56 <minion> pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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13:52:51 <Malice> Thanks, but one question; I may be blind, but how to download this book?
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13:53:16 <Denommus> Malice: I don't think that there is a download link on the site, but you can easily google a pdf for it. I have one myself
13:53:40 <spacefrogg> you don't but there used to be a small project on github to download it and convert it into some ebook
13:53:43 <Malice> fair enough
13:53:51 <Malice> I found pdf, I guess
13:54:23 <H4ns> oh boy, one year and pcl will be a decade old.
13:54:26 <H4ns> time flies
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13:54:52 <Malice> :)
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13:57:22 <Malice> Anyway; does anybody have a nice quick tutorial, so that I can check if I installed sbcl correctly?
13:57:30 <Malice> I want to know how to compile simple hello-world...
13:57:45 <H4ns> Malice: http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/31/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/
13:58:03 <Krystof> (funcall (compile nil '(lambda () (format t "~&Hello, World~%"))))
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14:00:13 <Malice> Krystof: where should I run it?
14:00:15 <Malice> in sbcl?
14:00:48 <Malice> If so, I get an error- unknown command "(funcall"
14:01:16 <Malice> And at initialization, sbcl says "fatal  error[...] can
14:01:23 <Malice> can't load .core*
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14:09:50 <Malice> Okay, so I have a problem with .core not working, which, I guess, results in sbcl not being able to do anything productive. Has anyone else encountered this problem/
14:09:55 <Malice> Or found a fix for it?
14:10:30 <H4ns> Malice: how did you get your sbcl?
14:10:39 <H4ns> Malice: what installation instructions did you follow?
14:10:52 <H4ns> Malice: you may want to look at the blog post that i posted a link for earlier.
14:12:00 <Malice> First I tried to compile it from source, but I guess that something went wrong, so I installed it from repo.
14:12:09 <Malice> Right now I'm using sbcl from repo.
14:12:35 <H4ns> Malice: ok.  there is an INSTALL file, did you follow the instructions?
14:13:06 <H4ns> Malice: to bootstrap, you need to get yourself a common lisp binary from somewhere.  i'd recommend that you install a binary and don't bother compiling from source.
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14:14:32 <gadmyth> yes
14:14:36 <Malice> H4ns:  binary from where
14:14:44 <H4ns> Malice: www.sbcl.org
14:15:05 <Malice> H4ns: I guess I have a binary from my repo, v. 1.0.55.0 debian
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14:15:18 <Malice> H4ns: But I may give it a try
14:15:23 <H4ns> Malice: that is very old. and apparently it does not work.
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14:15:45 <gadmyth> apt-get install sbcl
14:16:05 <Denommus> H4ns: Malice: isn't there a PPA for SBCL?
14:17:15 <Xach> Denommus: I haven't heard of one.
14:17:56 <gadmyth> If you use apt-get package management, you can install SBCL
14:18:11 <Malice> gadmyth: I did it, it doesn't work, but I may have found reason
14:18:17 <Denommus> gadmyth: the problem is the outdated version on the Debian repo
14:18:23 <Xach> In the past, it has installed either a very old SBCL, or an unwanted infrastructure along with it, or both.
14:19:05 <gadmyth> oh, I see
14:19:25 <Malice> okay
14:19:41 <Malice> It looks like I installed sbcl previously, with some tutorial
14:19:50 <Xach> I would love to see a Debian/Ubuntu repo with lots of CL implementations in it.
14:19:51 <Malice> it's v. 1.0.58
14:19:52 <Malice> but it works
14:20:02 *Xach* eyes dlowe
14:20:07 <Malice> I just compiled the code that Krystof provided
14:20:25 <Malice> and the reason I didn't know it was there is I thought that it should be available globally, but I have to start it from its path.
14:20:30 *dlowe* whistles innocently.
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14:21:03 <Malice> I installed x86 version. Should I install amd64, or stay with the one I got(since it's working ;) )?
14:21:21 <dlowe> Maybe I was attempting too much with trying to compile things with vms
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14:21:33 <dlowe> and I should just start with i386 and x86_64
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14:22:04 <Denommus> Malice: are you on a x64 machine? If so, I'd recommend using x64 :-P
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14:24:08 <vibhavp`> Does this qualify as tail recursion: https://gist.github.com/9135122 ?
14:24:42 <stassats`> yes
14:25:01 <dlowe> vibhavp`: tail recursion optimization isn't guaranteed in Common Lisp, though
14:25:08 <vibhavp`> stassats`: So sbcl should optimize it, right
14:25:11 <stassats`> but tail recursion is not a good way to implement iteration in CL
14:25:21 <vibhavp`> dlowe: yeah, thats what I was wondering
14:25:21 <dlowe> vibhavp`: so depending on your implementation and settings, it may not do what you want
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14:25:29 <loke_erc`> vibhavp`: SBCL will not optimise it, unless you set the optimisation declarations correctly
14:25:35 <White_Flame> if you disassemble, it's relatively easy to see if there are calls made to number-is-palindrome or not
14:25:36 <Denommus> is there any implementation besides ABCL that doesn't do it, though?
14:25:38 <loke_erc`> vibhavp`: It's better to just use a looing construct
14:25:43 <dlowe> vibhavp`: unless you really need tail recursion, just suck it up and use a loop
14:25:48 <Denommus> LOOP is also more expressive
14:25:51 <loke_erc`> Denommus: SBCL only does it when speed>=2
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14:25:58 <stassats`> protip, you don't need subseq
14:26:11 <stassats`> parse-integer has :start and :end parameters
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14:26:40 <stassats`> and you don't need to turn an integer into a string at all
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14:27:24 <White_Flame> what about stringifying, reversing the string, and comparing the two?
14:27:39 <White_Flame> would likely be the shortest code, and pretty fast, too
14:27:48 <stassats`> if you want to be slow, then it's a good way
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14:28:11 <stassats`> loke_erc`: it's speed >= debug
14:28:24 <zmyrgel> hi, suggestions on how to handle "Invalid byte #xE2 in CHARSET:ASCII conversion" errors when running cl-test-grid?
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14:29:09 <zmyrgel> seems that clisp uses ascii encoding and fails to load any library with unicode / latin1 chars
14:29:26 <loke_erc`> stassats`: Oh, I see
14:29:33 <loke_erc`> stassats`: Debug=2 by default?
14:29:42 <stassats`> no, debug 1 is the default
14:29:55 <dlowe> zmyrgel: clisp claims unicode support
14:30:22 <oleo> gcl does not
14:30:39 <loke_erc`> zmyrgel: What is your system encoding? (type "locale")
14:30:41 <stassats`> neither does my shoe
14:30:49 <zmyrgel> loke_erc`: C
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14:31:14 <loke_erc`> zmyrgel: C is pure (7-but) ascii
14:31:21 <loke_erc`> zmyrgel: Fix that, and CLISP will work for you
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14:31:43 <zmyrgel> loke_erc`: should cl-test-grid check the locale as well when running clisp?
14:31:53 <stassats`> i now remembered about the :back sbcl bug again, but i'm still not sure how to handle :up :back following each other
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14:32:23 <stassats`> maybe i should just implement it however i deem appropriate, because if anybody depends on that distinction is bound to lose
14:32:50 <stassats`> (i'm talking about (make-pathname :directory '(:absolute "a" "b" :up :back)))
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14:33:11 <stassats`> :back is resolved without touching the filesystem, :up should follow symlinks
14:33:48 <dim> mmm, I might have to learn some more about pathnames, it seems
14:34:14 <dim> the whole pathname-as-directory business is so strange, tho
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14:34:42 <dim> (ensure-directories-exist "/tmp/foo/bar/baz") vs (ensure-directories-exist "/tmp/foo/bar/baz/") is what I'm refering to here
14:34:54 <stassats`> and :up is handled by just using .., so, with :up :back, should split the path into "/a/b/../", resolve it, then remove the last directory
14:35:31 <stassats`> dim: (ensure-directories-exist (make-pathname :directory '(:absolute "tmp" "foo" "bar" "baz"))) and you're set
14:35:34 <Xach> dim: I find it very helpful that if I have a file foo, I can ensure its directory exists with (ensure-directories-exist foo) rather than extracting its directory separately.
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14:35:56 <Xach> I use that about a million times per day
14:36:01 <stassats`> same here
14:36:09 <H4ns> and it is also helpful that ensure-directories-exist returns the original pathname
14:36:11 <dim> how do you extract the directories separately when the path has been given by a user?
14:36:38 <Xach> What kinds of things have you led the user to expect? Then make them work.
14:36:47 <H4ns> dim: what do you mean by "extract"?
14:37:10 <stassats`> CCL is actually broken: (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :directory '(:absolute "a" "b" :up))) => #P"/a/
14:37:13 <dim> I want the list of the "components" (?) from a filename (which is to be processed as a directory name)
14:37:18 <stassats`> so is clisp
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14:38:33 <dim> so, e.g., "/tmp/foo/bar/baz/" -> (:absolute "tmp" "foo" "bar" "baz")
14:38:49 <H4ns> dim: so you have a string that the user enters and you want to assume that it is a directory?
14:38:57 <dim> in that case, yes
14:39:04 <Krystof> I suggest (parse-native-namestring <namestring> :as-directory t)
14:39:11 <stassats`> dim: you need parse-native-namestring of some sort
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14:39:24 <dim> is that an SBCL only extension?
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14:39:40 <Krystof> (which you would have found if you read the sbcl manual chapter on pathnames)
14:39:50 <Krystof> dim: except in the sense that sbcl code is public domain, yes
14:39:56 <stassats`> (uiop:parse-native-namestring "/a/b/[c]" :ensure-directory t)
14:40:03 <H4ns> dim: you could also try cl-fad:pathname-as-directory as you've suggested, which may do the right thing for you.
14:40:11 <stassats`> if you're into uiop
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14:40:31 <dim> well I was into cl-fad and I'm now trying iolib.pathnames
14:40:42 <stassats`> cl:parse-namestring is inadequate when it comes to parsing user provided pathnames
14:40:47 <dim> so the question is how to handle that with just standard pathnames
14:41:27 <dim> stassats`: yeah ok, that was the conclusion, but I though what I just read here would maybe shake it again
14:43:18 <stassats`> so, the easiest thing for me to do with regards to ":up :back" is to just translate both into "../.."
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14:53:24 <stassats`> blimey, was about to find a use for NRECONC, but i need (nconc a (nreverse b)), not (nconc (nreverse a) b)
14:53:28 <stassats`> another time, nreconc
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14:55:08 <Xach> SANS is the only known use-case
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15:03:24 <loke_erc`> sans?
15:03:57 <Xach> http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3247672165664225%40naggum.no.html
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15:04:11 <Xach> "I wrote this some time ago when I wanted to find a use for `nreconc´"
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15:05:45 <stassats`> i recently found a use for the dependent protocol in the MOP, one of those elusive things too
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15:09:13 <loke_erc`> stassats`: dependent protocol? Pray tell me more
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15:10:12 <stassats`> it's a way to invoke some code when a class is redefined
15:11:03 <Krystof> Xach: there would appear to be nreconc use in swank!
15:11:35 <loke_erc`> stassats`: is that REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE?
15:11:40 <stassats`> loke_erc`: i had a function similar to make-instance, but which doesn't actually instantiate the requested class, but creates a modified class on the fly, and the auto created classes are cached, so i needed to invalidate the cached class upon redefinition of the original class
15:11:59 <Xach> Krystof: did you use your soon-to-be-publicized fast pan-library code search website?
15:12:05 <Xach> ...to discover that?
15:12:12 <stassats`> loke_erc`: reinitialize-instance requires the class to be of your metaclass, the dependent protocol works with any classes
15:12:36 <loke_erc`> Oh, I see
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15:15:22 <Krystof> Xach: sorry.  I used github code search :(
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15:22:12 <LiamH> Is sans equivalent to alexandria:remove-from-plist (or delete-from-plist)?
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15:26:32 <JuanitoJons> Hello, good morning :Xach , I had a problem with quicklisp when  I try to load iolib, the message is "You need ASDF >= 2.31.1 to load this system correctly"
15:27:15 <Xach> JuanitoJons: ok. you should get an asdf like that, then.
15:27:25 <JuanitoJons> the las update was: 2014-02-11
15:27:42 <JuanitoJons> in my quicklisp
15:27:51 <Xach> Quicklisp does not come with ASDF 2.31.1 or greater
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15:28:01 <Xach> You have to get it on your own or use the one provided by your implementation.
15:28:35 <JuanitoJons> Can you tell me how?
15:28:56 <Xach> JuanitoJons: What implementation do you use?
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15:30:54 <JuanitoJons> debian  , but I don't use the package "cl-asdf" of the distribution.
15:31:06 <Xach> JuanitoJons: I mean what implementation of Common Lisp?
15:31:14 <JuanitoJons> sbcl
15:31:40 <Xach> If you use the latest version of SBCL (or even one from the past year or two), you will get a new-enough ASDF.
15:32:34 <Xach> The one at www.sbcl.org might work for you. (It doesn't for me.)
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15:33:15 <jlg> morning
15:34:10 <LiamH> My experience is the compiled SBCLs there do not run on Debian stable because of a glibc version problem. You have to compile your own SBCL.
15:34:25 <Xach> LiamH: that is also my experience.
15:34:47 <Xach> hmm
15:35:11 <JuanitoJons> ok
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15:41:54 <Xach> JuanitoJons: you will also need to install libfixposix
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15:44:15 <bhyde> I believe the primary use of nreconc is in test suites of CL implementations :)
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15:58:40 <Krystof> I need to fix my build process to sort out the link version thing
15:58:56 <Krystof> well, there's lots and lots to fix
15:59:14 <Krystof> not least the "doesn't build at all on anything but x86oid and ppc"
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16:28:20 <famous34627> Please like this video, regarding humanitarian purposes for little girl who need new heart... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2t0HX3hNys
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17:54:27 <flip214> I'd like to work a bit on ECL. Somebody here that can allow my GIT/ticket access on SF?
17:56:41 <Xach> I don't think so. Try the mailing list.
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17:58:12 <flip214> I mailed Juan.-
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18:02:05 <Xach> It would be better to contact the mailing list.
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18:53:06 <paule32> hello
18:53:29 <paule32> is it possible to create gui apps with clisp ?
18:54:26 <dlowe> paule32: yes
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18:54:46 <p_l> paule32: it's possible to make GUI applications with Common Lisp (clisp is a specific implementation), it's however *MUCH* easier (IMO) with commercial implementations
18:56:29 <paule32> you prefer clisp?
18:57:14 <p_l> paule32: no, I usually use SBCL, rarely CCL, CLISP essentially... never
18:57:33 <pjb> minion: memo for xificurC: plists are O(n) and hash-tables O(1), but for small dictionaries, (eg. less than 5 or 35 depending on the implementation, and on the key/test), plists are still faster than hashtable because of the constant terms of the algorithmic complexities.
18:57:34 <minion> Remembered. I'll tell xificurC when he/she/it next speaks.
18:57:43 <pjb> paule32: definitely.
18:58:10 <stassats`> only pjb prefers clisp in #lisp
18:58:12 <pjb> paule32: there is an example of X gui application in the sources of clisp.
18:58:26 <paule32> oh
18:59:18 <pjb> modules/clx/new-clx/demos/sokoban.lisp
19:00:11 <paule32> i aks, because i want to program a electornic simulator
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19:00:29 <pjb> That said I'd be interested to work on ecl, notably to make it good on Android and iOS, but I won't be able to do if without being paid, for the forseable future.
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19:00:52 <stassats`> pjb: why not do the same, but to clisp?
19:00:53 <pjb> paule32: the thing is that if you program in conforming Common Lisp, you don't need to care what implementation is used to run your program.
19:01:04 <pjb> stassats`: clisp is implemented in C; I'm a lisp programer ;-)
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19:01:27 <stassats`> ecl has a lot of C too
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19:03:11 <whartung> CLISP in implemented in something, but it's not quite C...
19:03:18 -!- shridhar [~Shridhar@116.75.34.36] has quit [Quit: shridhar]
19:03:28 <whartung> mostly C, kinda like C, but it's not raw C
19:03:29 <paule32> i should start with little examples
19:04:04 <paule32> loops, print text
19:04:21 <paule32> and so such stuff
19:04:27 <pjb> whartung: well, it's C as you use it as soon as you have a big program to write in C
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19:04:37 <pjb> paule32: definitely.
19:04:42 <stassats`> there's commonqt, if you want a real GUI
19:04:56 <pjb> paule32: Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/  http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html
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19:11:35 <drewc2> My wife was using "A Gentle Introduction" to learn what I was talking about ... and wrote a song. "You put the CAR and the CDR and you CONS it all up" to the tune of 'Harry Nilsson - Coconut' ... still makes me laugh.
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19:15:40 *LiamH* wants to see a video of a performance
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19:18:49 <pjb> drewc2: would that be a reason why there are so few women into programming?  They fork into show business?
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19:20:14 <rob3> wut
19:20:50 <pjb> ywv ?
19:21:09 <pjb> usr ?
19:21:26 <pjb> argh, rob3, not rot3 :-p
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19:22:51 <drewc> "I said APPEND is how you join the lists, I said APPEND is how you join the lists, you put the kar in the kudder and you ..."
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19:30:08 <White_Flame> you put the kar in the kudder and get an infinite list... (x10000000)
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19:31:05 <White_Flame> (well, s/kar/cell/ but I didn't feel like changing it)
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19:48:01 <jaimef> https://gist.github.com/9142025 feedback?
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19:48:41 <stassats`> jaimef: dangling parenthesis
19:49:27 <jaimef> hmm yeah nano does not support paredit mode yet :(
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19:52:45 <flip214> can anybody reproduce that in ECL the swank server dies on any error? sending (error 1) is enough for me.
19:53:10 <stassats`> no
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19:54:11 <stassats`> swank sever can't die without leaving a will
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19:56:52 <flip214> with "die" I mean that the thread goes away; the listening socket is left over, the swank client gets no more data. swank:close-connection% is called.
19:58:10 <stassats`> what is happening in *slime-events*?
19:58:46 <flip214> do I have to turn that on somewhere?
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19:59:20 <flip214> Debugger received error of type: UNBOUND-VARIABLE
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20:00:24 <stassats`> you need to turn it on only if you turned it off
20:00:40 <flip214> if that is on the emacs side, bad luck.
20:00:55 <flip214> one, I'm on vim; two, the swank server side stops the connection.
20:00:58 <flip214> even calling (swank::init-log-output)
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20:01:07 <flip214> makes the swank server go away.
20:01:17 <stassats`> it's vim, you should have said that in the beginning
20:01:31 <flip214> that shouldn't matter for the ecl/swank side
20:01:47 <stassats`> it does matter, apparently
20:02:16 <stassats`> ask the authors of that vim thing for support
20:02:31 <flip214> strace on ecl says this:
20:02:33 <flip214> 12939 read(7, "000051(:emacs-rex (swank:listener-eval \"(error \\\"aa\\\")\n\") \":test-pk\" :repl-thread 177)\n", 8192) = 87
20:02:36 <flip214> 12939 write(6, "00002A(:return (:abort \"#<a SIMPLE-ERROR>\") 177)", 48) = 48
20:02:51 <flip214> so it's purely the ecl side that "crashes"
20:03:10 <flip214> furthermore, with SBCL and the same swank version everything runs smoothly
20:03:10 <stassats`> purely?
20:03:46 <stassats`> everything runs smoothly in emacs
20:04:05 <flip214> with ECL?
20:04:17 <stassats`> yes
20:04:45 <flip214> hmmm
20:04:49 <flip214> the next strace lines are
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20:04:55 <flip214> 12939 write(2, ";", 1)                  = 1
20:04:55 <flip214> 12939 write(2, ";", 1)                  = 1
20:04:55 <flip214> 12939 write(2, " ", 1)                  = 1
20:04:55 <flip214> 12939 write(2, "s", 1)                  = 1
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20:05:04 <Holly26>  You can find funny videos here. http://bit.do/my_videos69
20:05:07 <flip214> where swank says that it stops the connection to the swank client.
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20:09:24 <flip214> it seems to be safe-backtrace that calls close-connection.
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20:12:36 <flip214> 1> (SWANK::CLOSE-CONNECTION% #<singlethreaded-connection  0000000005e8dba0> NIL ((0 "SAFE-BACKTRACE")
20:12:48 <flip214> If I read that correctly, the condition is NIL....
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20:22:46 <flip214> stassats`: are you using git 237af2e803a2bf9d1044875ed9b7d7b301cad343 for ECL?
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20:23:11 <stassats`> yes
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20:34:49 <jaimef> now if save-lisp-and-die worked in ecl :P
20:35:13 *jaimef* can't use clack without thinking "ak-47"
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20:35:46 <jasom> I think there is a KCL descendent that can save/restore images like other lisps
20:36:02 <pjb> jaimef: but there's better than save-lisp-and-die in ecl, there's link of elf binaries!
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20:36:17 <jasom> pjb: sarcasm?
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20:36:31 <pjb> There are different implementations, so they have different features.
20:36:46 <pjb> the point of ecl is to be able to generate unix binaries, instead of lisp images.
20:37:41 <jaimef> pjb which is what I need to get working still
20:37:54 <jasom> pjb: do you have an example of how to generate a non-trivial elf binary?  You know with 6-8 asdf systems included?
20:38:04 <pjb> jaimef: then you just load your program in sbcl to save a lisp image.
20:38:12 <flip214> for me the UNWIND-PROTECT in swank:SIMPLE-SERVE-REQUESTS triggers, and drops the swank connection. but only in ecl, sbcl is fine.
20:38:21 <pjb> jasom: just write an asdf that uses the other asdf, I'd say?
20:38:34 <jasom> because I gave up trying to make a standalone binary in ecl last time I tried (about a year ago)
20:38:55 <pjb> Don't give up.
20:39:26 <jaimef> pjb that's what I am doing atm. will finish ecl once I get asdf working properly
20:39:46 <stassats`> flip214: your ecl is without threads?
20:40:41 <flip214> inclusive threads. I start swank in a separate thread, and swank:thread-list shows a few.
20:41:09 <stassats`> nevermind, ecl doesn't support :spawn anyhow
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20:41:43 <jaimef> pjb was able to port jsonip.org from thinatra/elnode/emacs to sbcl/clack
20:41:49 <stassats`> unless that's what you're doing, setting it to *communication-style* to :spawn
20:42:53 <jaimef> http://jsonip.org/room much better
20:43:12 <flip214> I have :dont-close T.
20:43:32 <jasom> oh... I just discovered asdf:make-build that might make executable generation easier
20:43:59 <jasom> silly me, I was looking in the section of the manual titled "Building programs" for how to build programs
20:44:21 <jaimef> jasom for ecl? yeah
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20:47:25 <dim> fe[nl]ix: sbcl(7879,0xb0099000) malloc: *** error for object 0xf00000000000000a: pointer being freed was not allocated; Error opening /dev/tty: Device not configured; SIGABRT received. --- using iolib.os:run-program... rings a bell?
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20:52:10 <Malice_> hello
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20:52:14 <jasom> I'll give ecl this: it generates tiny executables
20:52:28 <Malice_> I am trying to set up everything for learning lisp offline.
20:52:49 <Malice_> I went through tutorial on how to setup emacs, sbcl and slime, and it kinda works...
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20:53:41 <dim> if I have a plist that I loop over, is there a way to only process properties when I have an existing :initarg in some instance object? do I need MOP for that?
20:53:41 <Malice_> If I run emacs from terminal, slime works flawlessly. If I run emacs from icon("Programs" or "Applications" tab in my OS), it doesn't - lisp-inferior won't open.
20:53:45 <Malice_> What may be the reason?
20:53:54 <Malice_> I would be really glad if it worked both ways
20:54:00 <Xach> Malice_: differing environment can be a reason.
20:54:05 <dim> maybe slot-exists-p would be enough here
20:54:10 <jaimef> Malice you using quicklisp-slime-helper?
20:54:13 <Malice_> yes
20:54:26 <flip214> jasom: because there's an 9MB shared object somewhere ...
20:54:29 <Malice_> Error says that it can't find core in the location it provides
20:54:32 <nicdev> i am working on building an authentication system for a CL web app, are the any public examples you could recommend to look at?
20:54:34 <Malice_> And indeed, such location DNE
20:55:02 <jaimef> Malice I use this https://gist.github.com/9143311
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20:55:42 <stassats`> flip214: are you doing ecl -load start-swank.lisp?
20:55:57 <Malice_> jaimef, I suppose I should add this to my .emacs file, right?
20:56:16 <jaimef> or just eval it first assuming you've got sbcl in the same place
20:56:21 <stassats`> flip214: or -eval "start-swank..."
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20:57:29 <flip214> stassats`: no, I'm starting that in ~/.eclrc
20:57:41 <flip214> stassats`: can you quickload :iolib in your ecl?
20:57:43 <stassats`> ecl quits when error occurs during -eval or -load
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20:58:12 <flip214> that is not my symptom. ECL keeps running, only the connection gets dropped.
20:58:23 <flip214> with sbcl I get a nice debugger window with restarts and a stack trace.
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20:59:25 <flip214> ah yes... in case someone needs that for a door: http://heeris.id.au/2013/this-is-why-you-shouldnt-interrupt-a-programmer
20:59:41 <stassats`> and the same thing happens with .eclrc, an error quits ecl
21:01:39 <jasom> flip214: is the ecl not linked statically?
21:01:43 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:01:50 <jasom> ecl runtime that is
21:01:57 ered [~ered@2001:5a8:4:aaa0::6bf8:bab3] has joined #lisp
21:02:15 <pjb> nope.
21:02:28 <flip214> jasom: it _could_ be statically linked some time in the past.
21:02:30 <pjb> It's in /usr/lib/libecl.so like C runtime is in glibc.so
21:02:37 <flip214> IIRC that's been broken for 2 years.
21:02:57 <jasom> so I'll need to distribute that
21:03:07 <Malice_> So I will ask again, because I still don't know how to fix this...
21:03:12 <Malice_> If I run emacs from terminal, slime works flawlessly. If I run emacs from icon("Programs" or "Applications" tab in my OS), it doesn't - lisp-inferior won't open.
21:03:16 <Malice_> What may be the reason?
21:03:19 *jasom* hates dynamic loading of standard libraries
21:03:24 <Malice_> Error says that it can't find core in the location it provides
21:03:29 <stassats`> Malice_: bad environment variables
21:03:30 <Xach> Malice_: the environment may be different.
21:03:44 <Malice_> So what should I do?
21:04:07 <Malice_> I haven't even started learning lisp, I simply wanted to set things up; I don't really know how these work.
21:04:10 <jasom> flip214: that's a 3.2M .so to be fair, not 9MB
21:04:12 <Xach> Malice_: you could compare the output of M-x run-command env RET in the terminal to the one in the window system and look for suspicious bits.
21:04:13 <pjb> jasom: this is a misnomer, you don't load them they're already in memory.  There's only a page table trick to put them in your process!
21:04:26 <pjb> No copy, no loading involved.
21:04:28 <jasom> pjb: that's not what I hate about them
21:04:41 <jasom> pjb: I don't care how it affects startup times, I care how it breaks working programs
21:04:45 <Xach> Malice_: what is the location of the core file it's looking for?
21:04:52 <stassats`> flip214: so, i can reproduce your problems only when running the swank server from under -load, -eval, or .eclrc
21:04:55 <stassats`> from the same thread
21:04:57 <Xach> Malice_: the not-found location, that is
21:05:00 <Malice_> Xach, one second
21:05:04 <pjb> jasom: right. On the other hand, it allows to correct all the installed programs at once too :-)
21:05:06 <jasom> e.g. when glibc changed the memcopy behavior lots and lots of working (but incorrect) programs crashed
21:05:10 <pjb> when you update the library.
21:05:27 <Malice_> Xach, /usr/local/lib/sbcl//sbcl.core
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21:05:58 <Xach> Malice_: There is no file in that location? How did you install SBCL?
21:05:59 <flip214> jasom: $ ls -al /usr/local/lib/libecl.so -L
21:05:59 <flip214> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root staff 10810897 Feb 21 21:39 /usr/local/lib/libecl.so
21:06:04 <flip214> 10.8MB on 64bit
21:06:21 <flip214> ok, that's with debugging symbols.
21:06:22 <flip214> right.
21:06:22 <Malice_> Xach, I downloaded binary from their site
21:06:25 <Bike> Maybe it's the double slashes?
21:06:33 <Malice_> Bike, no
21:06:41 <jasom> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 3300256 Nov 27 10:28 /usr/lib/libecl.so
21:06:57 <flip214> stassats`: I put a (loop (ignore-errors ...)) around the swank-server in .eclrc, so that I can reconnect to it at least.
21:06:58 <Xach> Malice_: how did you install it after download?
21:07:12 <Malice_> I'm not sure, I guess I ran script - make.sh or install.sh
21:07:24 <stassats`> flip214: ah, hahah, that's what i was about to test
21:07:33 <Malice_> I may have missed a few things. I know location of core
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21:07:40 <Xach> Malice_: that install.sh usually puts a core file in that directory
21:07:44 <Xach> Malice_: where is it?
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21:08:08 <flip214> stassats`: although you'll have to do :dont-close nil, so that the port number can be reused.
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21:08:15 <stassats`> yep, that's it
21:08:16 <Malice_> Xach, I maybe i could make links to the directory
21:08:27 <stassats`> flip214: your ignore-errors quits the server
21:08:32 <Malice_> Xach, It's under ~/programming/sbcl-bin
21:08:35 <Xach> Malice_: I think more troubleshooting is needed.
21:08:45 <Malice_> I mean, the files are located there
21:08:52 <Malice_> lib, bin and share
21:09:00 <Xach> Malice_: Did you intend to install it there, or do you want it system-wide?
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21:09:21 <flip214> stassats`: works for me, for some values of "works".
21:09:23 <Malice_> Xach, Actually, I would prefer it to be system-wide.
21:09:30 -!- stopbit [~stopbit@198.178.121.206] has quit [Quit: Quitting.]
21:09:41 <flip214> but now ECL stops compiling iolib after building the src/syscalls/ffi-types-unix binary.
21:09:42 <stassats`> flip214: what works?
21:09:43 <Xach> Malice_: If I were you, I'd go into the unpacked sbcl binary directory and run "install.sh" as root.
21:09:44 <Malice_> Xach, I already made link to binary so I can call it from terminal, but if this location causes problems, then I'm willing to move it elsewheer.
21:10:01 <Xach> Malice_: a link does not really do what you want. installing should.
21:10:06 <flip214> stassats`: that the swank-server gets restarted, reopens the socket, so that my vim can reconnect to it after an error.
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21:10:16 <Malice_> Xach, Thank you. I will see what I can do.
21:10:18 <stassats`> ignore-errors is what's causing the problem!
21:10:30 <Xach> Malice_: you can make it work in a non-default location, but it's more work, and not always worth it.
21:10:48 <stassats`> with ignore-errors, it can't reach into invoke-debugger, which calls *debugger-hook*
21:11:09 <stassats`> so, it just brings the server down
21:11:35 <flip214> stassats`: ah, right. without that I can debug.
21:11:36 <flip214> thanks.
21:11:41 <stassats`> never ever use ignore-errors, unless you really want to
21:11:46 <stassats`> s/want/need/
21:11:52 <stassats`> s/need/have/
21:11:55 <flip214> I think I had that in because I got errors during compilation.
21:12:09 <flip214> somewhere
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21:13:13 <flip214> hrmpf. ":INPUT argument to RUN-PROGRAM does not have a file handle" "Retry PROCESS-OP on #<grovel-file "iolib.syscalls""
21:13:32 <flip214> from ECL's STDIN I get that working.
21:13:45 <Malice_> Xach, if I run "sudo sh install.sh", it stops.
21:13:58 <Xach> Malice_: how?
21:14:07 <Malice_> Xach, it says that /src/runtime/sbcl was not found
21:14:20 <Xach> Malice_: can you paste a transcript to paste.lisp.org?
21:14:37 <Malice_> Xach, excuse me, paste what?
21:14:42 <Malice_> Xach, sorry for my lack of knowledge
21:14:48 <Xach> A transcript. Of your interaction in the shell.
21:15:36 <Xach> I'd like to see what you're seeing in the terminal, verbatim.
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21:16:26 <stassats`> flip214: yes, run-program can't run from slime
21:16:34 <Malice_> Xach, I can, but there's not much more then what I said.
21:16:37 <flip214> stassats`: thanks for your help. I'd have thought that some swank level should already catch errors and present them via swank.
21:16:39 <stassats`> you need to build it in the repl, then it should work fine
21:16:42 <stassats`> from the console
21:16:51 <stassats`> clhs *d-h*
21:16:51 <specbot> *debugger-hook*: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_debugg.htm
21:16:53 <Malice_> Xach, may i paste it to pastebin?
21:17:01 <stassats`> flip214: *debugger-hook* is that level
21:17:07 <Xach> I prefer paste.lisp.org, but I'm not too picky.
21:18:21 <Malice_> Xach, http://paste.lisp.org/display/141324
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21:19:01 <stassats`> and %close-foreign-library in cffi is not implemented
21:19:19 <flip214> Xach: if (ql:quickload :cl-dbus) (own git checkout in local-projects) says "Condition of type: SYSTEM-NOT-FOUND", is that a problem with the system list?
21:19:19 <Xach> Malice_: ok. in that directory you have the source code, but what you need is the binary.
21:19:22 <stassats`> flip214: i had a patch to iolib https://github.com/stassats/iolib/commit/519729b42d33ea3ba896a0fe88e91964837bdfd3 but it wasn't accepted
21:19:40 <Malice_> Xach, I agree.
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21:20:03 <Xach> Malice_: You can get it from http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html
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21:20:37 <Xach> I'm a little puzzled about how you got slime running in the terminal. Do you have an sbcl binary installed somewhere else?
21:20:47 <flip214> stassats`: https://bugs.launchpad.net/cffi/+bug/1281140
21:21:25 <Malice_> Xach, yes, I do.
21:21:30 <stassats`> pushed a fix to where?
21:21:44 <Malice_> Xach, As I said, I have already installed it... although not in "standard" path
21:22:11 <flip214> stassats`: you can get it to work by changing the (error "not supported) to (return T) ;)
21:22:24 <stassats`> ok, git://common-lisp.net/projects/cffi/cffi.git is no longer mirroring github
21:22:25 <flip214> don't know why it tries to unload the library
21:22:33 <Xach> Malice_: How did you install it?
21:22:51 <stassats`> flip214: because it's already loaded
21:22:59 <stassats`> loading twice makes it unload it first
21:23:04 <Xach> You didn't install it from that sbcl-1.1.15/ directory...do you have the binary downloaded somewhere?
21:23:33 <Malice_> Xach, honestly, today I was so absorbed by all the things happening, that I'm not sure, but I guess that I downloaded binary.
21:23:35 -!- ehu [~ehu@62.140.132.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
21:23:42 *stassats`* is angry at websites making their interface "better" 
21:23:47 <Malice_> Xach, Yes, I did.
21:23:47 <stassats`> now my scrapper doesn't work
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21:24:01 <Malice_> Xach, I have it in other directory, the one I said the core is
21:25:02 <Xach> Malice_: Ok, well, it is perhaps easiest to just download it again from that download-table page, unpack it somewhere, and run "sudo sh install.sh" from the place unpacked.
21:25:16 <Xach> That will install /usr/local/bin/sbcl and supporting files system-wide
21:26:15 <Malice_> Xach, and should I delete the existing one
21:26:19 <Malice_> ?
21:26:52 <Xach> I don't think that is necessary.
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21:29:55 <Malice_> Xach, how do I remove sbcl installed by install.sh ?
21:30:40 <Xach> Malice_: I don't know. I don't think it is necessary, since it's in a place that can't interfere with the default installation.
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21:32:16 <Malice_> Xach, I installed it, but it won't work... I worry that I may have installed binary for wrong architecture...
21:33:28 <Xach> Malice_: When did you do that?
21:33:36 <Malice_> moment ago
21:33:47 <Xach> Ok, what happens when you try to run it?
21:33:55 <Malice_> It says that it can't run binary
21:34:09 <Xach> Ok, what did you download?
21:34:12 <dim> is it possible for destructuring-bind to consider plist symbols from another package than KEYWORD as &key?
21:34:19 <Malice_> Few hours ago?
21:34:27 <Bike> dim: yeah, any lambda list with &key can
21:34:34 <Malice_> I had it here already from previous tries
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21:34:51 <Xach> Malice_: into what directory is it unpacked?
21:35:06 <Bike> dim: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_dad.htm
21:35:12 <Malice_> Xach, are you asking for full dir?
21:35:21 <Xach> Malice_: just the last directory should give enough info.
21:35:38 <Malice_> YOu want to know version?
21:35:45 <dim> when (in-package #:foo), I though that (destructuring-bind (&key bar) ...) would actually use foo::bar, but it appears it's not the case
21:35:57 <Xach> Malice_: if you downloaded the binary, it will have the architecture info as well.
21:36:14 <Malice_> sbcl-1.1.15-x86-64-linux
21:36:29 <Xach> Malice_: what kind of computer do you have? are you running linux on an amd64?
21:36:36 <Bike> dim: it does for the variable, but still uses :bar for the key
21:37:19 <dim> thing is I'm using find-symbol at runtime to produce the list I'm matching against
21:37:20 <stassats`> ((bar bar)) will
21:37:30 <dim> trying that one then
21:37:40 <Bike> yeah. it's explained in more detail in the link there.
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21:37:56 <Malice_> Xach, I don't think so
21:38:18 <stassats`> &key ((bar bar) 'ian)
21:38:22 <Malice_> Xach, I am using elementaryOS, 32-bit version. It may be i386 architecture, or something like that.
21:39:03 <Xach> Malice_: Ok. It is easier to get things going with more mainstream OS and architecture choices. I can't help with your combo, sorry.
21:39:48 <dim> still no luck.
21:39:59 <Bike> Malice_: elementary is a linux? uname -m should confirm the arch
21:40:20 <Malice_> Bike, Xach i686
21:40:35 <Malice_> and elementaryOS is a linux based on Ubuntu, so I wouldn't say it's such unpopular...
21:40:43 <jasom> hmm ext:run-program is blocking on ecl
21:40:48 <Bike> probably you should get the x86 sbcl then, not x86-64
21:40:52 <Malice_> It's based on ubuntu, so many ubuntu-related solutions work.
21:40:56 <dim> ok I managed to understand the other problems, thanks
21:41:02 <Malice_> Bike, Yeah, my bad.
21:41:09 <stassats`> jasom: blocking what?
21:41:19 <jasom> stassats`: It doesn't return until the program exits
21:41:35 <Bike> at first i thought 'elementary os' was something weird like haiku, since it's not obviously linux from the name
21:41:41 <stassats`> jasom: did you ask it to return before the program exits?
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21:42:03 <Malice_> If I run another install.sh, but this time correct one, will it overwrite previous installation?
21:42:11 <stassats`> yes
21:42:12 <jasom> stassats`: (ext:run-program command argv &key input output error) <-- that's what the reference manual says.  How do I tell it to reutnr before the program exits?
21:42:23 <stassats`> :wait nil
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21:43:06 <Xach> Malice_: yes.
21:43:20 <Malice_> Okay, just did it
21:43:23 <Malice_> Looks like it works.
21:43:44 <Bike> woohoo
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21:44:22 <jasom> stassats`: it would be nice if that were documented *anywhere*
21:44:34 <Malice_> :)
21:44:46 <Malice_> Xach, thank you very much for your time and patience
21:44:58 <jasom> well, another patch to add to my ltk patchest
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21:45:50 <Xach> Malice_: i live to serve
21:46:07 <Malice_> Xach, I just have one more question.
21:46:15 <Xach> Quick! I have to go!
21:46:18 <stassats`> jasom: it's documented in M-.
21:46:19 <Malice_> Again, when I load emacs from terminal - everything's fine
21:46:23 <Malice_> BUt if I do it using icon
21:46:24 <Malice_> I get:
21:46:27 <Malice_> Error while trying to load definition for system sb-posix from pathname
21:46:28 <Malice_>   /usr/local/lib/sbcl/contrib/sb-posix.asd:
21:46:28 <Malice_>      don't recognize component type REQUIRE-SYSTEM
21:46:54 <Xach> I got nothin'. Adios!
21:46:54 <Malice_> @all - sorry for getting these three lines in here... Should have pasted on pastebin.
21:47:01 <Malice_> Xach, :)
21:47:03 <Malice_> Xach, bye
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21:47:56 <Malice_> Anyone>
21:47:59 <Malice_> ?
21:48:06 <Bike> maybe an old asfd?
21:48:07 <Bike> asdf
21:49:41 <Malice_> You're talking black magic to me.
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21:57:09 <dim> fe[nl]ix: how much coverage for macosx does iolib really has?
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22:01:31 <jasom> dim: it should be about the same as any other bsd
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22:02:04 <dim> well even walk-directory is failing here, when trying to parse an empty ("") filespec
22:02:36 <jasom> dim: which version of iolib?
22:03:22 <jasom> the walk-directory is broken in the quicklisp version (unless the last dist update upgraded it)
22:03:26 <dim> the quicklisp one, 0.7.3 apparently
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22:03:43 <dim> oh, that would explain then... ok
22:03:52 <dim> is it fixed in git?
22:03:56 askatasuna [~askatasun@181.30.10.50] has joined #lisp
22:04:01 <jasom> Definitely on linux
22:04:20 <jasom> (I haven't tested it personally on a BSD, but I found the error on linux too a long while ago)
22:04:48 <jasom> note you'll need libfixposix for the git version of iolib
22:04:57 <dim> oh.
22:05:11 <dim> I'm not ready to do that tonight.
22:05:11 <jasom> which is also in sionescu's github
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22:06:28 <dim> is it recent enough so that the quicklisp version doesn't require it yet?
22:06:31 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
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22:07:31 <stassats`> quicklisp doesn't have 0.7.3 anymore
22:08:32 <jasom> february 2014 git snapshot it looks like
22:08:36 <jasom> (I just updated my dist now)
22:09:10 gmcastil [~user@71-212-235-141.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp
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22:10:29 <dim> what's the right spelling to have quicklisp update just iolib?
22:12:30 *dim* updating all dists
22:12:32 <jasom> dim: AFAIK you can't do that; you can standardize on one specific dist, but you can't piecemeal pull things in (without creating your own dist)
22:12:53 <dim> makes sense, the symbol completion is misleading tho
22:13:23 <dim> I wonder if a catch method that displays a nice error message would be a good idea
22:14:23 <jasom> someone recently showed me a kind of trace on steroids/debug printer any idea what it might have been called?
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22:16:46 <flip214> stassats`: one more hint for me, please?
22:16:57 -!- Joreji [~thomas@153-217.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
22:17:01 <dim> iolib doesn't compile with the g++ given by clang
22:17:18 <flip214> using dbus in ecl I get this error: "#(111 114 103  ...101) is not of type (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) (*))"
22:17:21 <stassats`> flip214: don't stare at the song with bare eyes
22:17:29 <stassats`> s/song/sun/
22:17:45 <flip214> that's no problem, I'm nearly blind anyway ;)
22:17:58 <whartung> Don't take any wooden nickels.
22:18:10 <stassats`> flip214: well, that error is probably not lying
22:18:18 <stassats`> your error is not an ub8 array
22:18:27 <stassats`> s/error/array/
22:18:39 -!- ehu [~ehu@62.140.132.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds]
22:18:51 <flip214> debugging isn't that easy ... "SWANK-BACKEND:FRAME-CALL not implemented "
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22:20:01 <dim> mmm, gcc-4.7.3 fails to compile src/syscalls/ffi-types-unix.c from iolib too here, I might just cancel the late night hacking session :(
22:20:51 <dim> all of sudden, cl-fad and uiop are attractive again
22:20:52 <Malice_> Hello. I am trying to begin learning lisp. I am trying to set up sbcl, slime and emacs to work together well. If I start emacs from command line, it works well. However, if I start it using icon in my OS, I get an error: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141327
22:20:56 <Malice_> Any ideas?
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22:21:47 <dim> check emacs version in both cases with M-x emacs-version
22:21:58 <whartung> you get that when you start the sbcl process?
22:22:08 <whartung> emacs shouldn't care about that file
22:22:29 <Malice_> I get that when I run M-x slime
22:22:35 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@182.6.15.109.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
22:22:55 <whartung> you only have a single version of emacs? or are the two different?
22:23:24 <Malice_> I have only single one.
22:23:49 <Malice_> I checked now, version of both(started from command line and not from command line) emacs instances is the same
22:23:57 <stassats`> well, it's clear that you have different environments
22:24:05 <whartung> and both sbcls are loading the identical /usr/local/lib/sbcl/contrib/sb-posix.asd?
22:24:09 <stassats`> in particular, SBCL_HOME
22:24:17 <whartung> yea, sounds like an ENV var issue
22:24:31 <Malice_> I don't really understand that.
22:24:37 <Malice_> Sorry.
22:24:41 <Malice_> What does it mean to me?
22:24:42 <whartung> understand what?
22:24:54 <Malice_> Understand the problem I'm having.
22:25:03 <flip214> stassats`: a vector with a fill pointer isn't a simple-array, right?
22:25:07 <whartung> do you know what an environment variable is?
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22:25:22 <stassats`> flip214: it's most likely isn't a simple-array
22:25:42 <stassats`> nothing prevents it from being a simple, but it usually isn't
22:25:54 <Malice_> not really, is it something like $PATH?
22:25:59 <whartung> yes
22:26:08 <whartung> $PATH is an example of an environment variable
22:26:08 <Malice_> okay
22:26:34 <whartung> the environment in your command line is very likely different than the environment from when you click on emacs
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22:26:54 <whartung> and that could well be the cause of your problems
22:27:01 <whartung> what OS are you using?
22:27:08 <Bike> SBCL_HOME is an environment variable saying where sbcl lives
22:27:18 <Malice_> elementaryOS 32-bit, which is based on Ubuntu
22:27:35 <Malice_> Bike, where is this variable?
22:27:48 <Bike> the environment
22:27:50 <Bike> like PATH
22:28:11 <Malice_> Or, how may I change it?
22:28:19 <Malice_> Check both, change the one that isn't working to the one that is working?
22:28:31 <francogrex> export PATH=...
22:28:47 <flip214> stassats`: when I remove the fill-pointer, it works.
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22:28:57 <stassats`> flip214: naturally
22:29:10 <flip214> now I'm asking whether it shouldn't work in sbcl, or whether it should work even with fill pointer in ecl, too
22:29:25 <stassats`> it will work the same in sbcl and ecl
22:29:34 <flip214> it doesn't now.
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22:30:31 <flip214> that's why I'm asking ... should dbus create a vector without fill-pointer, or should ecl accept one with as simple-array?
22:30:45 <stassats`> no, i confused you
22:31:40 <stassats`> vector with a fill pointer is not a simple array, period
22:32:37 <flip214> ack.
22:33:25 <whartung> yea, by definition
22:34:22 <stassats`> but not the reverse, a simple array may have a fill pointer
22:34:44 <stassats`> but only an undjustable nondisplaced vector without a fill pointer will always be simple
22:35:08 <Malice_> So, no simple fix?
22:35:26 <stassats`> Malice_: restart your X session
22:35:40 <Malice_> stassats`, Okay.
22:35:53 <Malice_> stassats`, If it will work, than thank you.
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22:45:10 <Malice_> Hey. I'm back.
22:45:21 <Malice_> Unfortunately, nothing has changed.
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22:46:09 <Malice_> stassats`, Do you have any other ideas?
22:47:18 <stassats`> did you modify any .bashrc .profile or similar files?
22:48:36 <Malice_> no
22:48:41 <Malice_> or, wait a sec
22:49:07 <Malice_> a-ha! I did
22:49:16 <whartung> what did you change?
22:49:52 <Malice_> I followed some tutorial, and added this entry: export SBCL_HOME=~/programming/sbcl/lib/sbcl
22:49:59 <Malice_> I should remove it, shouldn't I?
22:50:05 <whartung> no
22:50:08 <whartung> keep it
22:50:12 <whartung> what you need to do
22:50:14 <stassats`> you should remove it
22:50:21 <whartung> the CLI one works stassats`
22:50:27 <whartung> so "it's correct", ostensibly
22:50:39 <Malice_> I could comment it out for now and see if it helps
22:50:50 <whartung> he needs to get that env set in his desktop environment
22:51:02 <whartung> or get emacs to export it when he launches SBCL
22:51:10 <whartung> or warp SBCL in a script with the env
22:52:05 <Malice_> Okay, so commenting it out didn't influence anything. CLI still works, desktop one still doesn't
22:52:18 <stassats`> desktop one won't change without a restart
22:52:20 <whartung> you'd have to reload your term
22:52:29 <whartung> for the cli to change
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22:52:42 <whartung> I would hope the desktop would change if he logged out
22:53:55 <Malice_> So, I should restart now once again, yes?
22:54:51 <whartung> what file did you change?
22:55:46 <Malice_> I commented out the env in .bashrc, but after reloading terminal even terminal one stopped working
22:55:53 <Malice_> So I reverted chanegs.
22:55:56 <whartung> yes that makes sense
22:56:00 <whartung> that's what I expected
22:56:01 <Malice_> changes*
22:56:18 <Malice_> So, what should I do now to make desktop one work?
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22:56:30 <stassats`> restart the whole shebang?
22:56:33 <whartung> you need to find out how to set an ENV var that affects the desktop
22:56:41 <whartung> bashrc rarely affects the desktop
22:57:12 <whartung> there was a random blog from a random google muttering about .pam_enviroment, but I don't know anything about linux, or what desktop you use, etc. so that may well be a red herring
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22:57:20 <whartung> you need to hunt that down
22:57:30 <whartung> what's the name of your inferior lisp process in emacs?
22:57:43 <stassats`> why not just install sbcl system wide and stop caring about SBCL_HOME?
22:57:44 <Malice_> whartung, how to check that?
22:57:56 <stassats`> if you do sudo ./install.sh, it will just work
22:58:07 <Malice_> stassats`, that's what I did
22:58:12 <whartung> I would imagine it's set in your .emacs file
22:58:42 <stassats`> Malice_: then your .emacs isn't configured to use it
22:58:56 <stassats`> and remove ~/programming/sbcl/ if it still exists
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23:00:17 <Malice_> My .emacs was automatically configurated, I guess.
23:00:22 <Malice_> It's my .emacs: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141328
23:00:45 <whartung> so it's picking up sbcl from the path
23:00:50 <stassats`> ok, so, did you also modify PATH to include ~/programming/sbcl/bin?
23:01:07 <whartung> same problem as any other env var stassats`
23:01:12 <whartung> won't affect the desktop
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23:01:17 <Malice_> I don't recall myself doing such a thing...
23:01:29 <stassats`> basically, get rid of any traces of ~/programming/sbcl
23:02:34 <whartung> well I'll let stassats` work with you, he and I are going in different directions.
23:02:56 <whartung> and he likely know sbcl better than I do (since I don't know sbcl at all...)
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23:06:23 <Malice_> Okay, stassats`
23:06:26 <Malice_> I did it.
23:06:48 <Malice_> Now I get this error in all sbcl sessions(in CLI, in emacs started from CLI, and emacs started from desktop)
23:07:09 <stassats`> good
23:07:48 <stassats`> Malice_: now, can you start just plain sbcl in the console?
23:08:04 <Malice_> yes, but with an error
23:08:42 <stassats`> paste your ~/.sbclrc too
23:10:11 <stassats`> and annotate the paste with the error too
23:10:41 <Malice_> stassats`, here you are
23:10:42 <Malice_> http://paste.lisp.org/display/141329
23:11:40 <stassats`> ok, the title says error, but you forgot the error
23:12:12 <Malice_> Yes. Error is here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141330
23:14:26 <stassats`> Malice_: what's the result of (asdf:asdf-version)?
23:14:48 <Malice_> where should I run it?
23:15:09 <stassats`> the error won't affect it, you can run after ]
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23:16:00 <Malice_> "2.26"
23:16:04 -!- Praise- is now known as Praise
23:16:10 <stassats`> that's bad
23:16:22 <stassats`> what's your sbcl version?
23:16:29 <stassats`> i think i get it now
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23:17:11 <stassats`> the latest sbcl binary on sbcl.org for x86 is 1.0.58, but you installed x86-64 first, which is 1.1.15
23:17:19 <Malice_> 1.0.58
23:17:26 <Malice_> yes.
23:17:29 <stassats`> and 1.1.15 has another contrib format, so your ./install.sh didn't overwrite the previous installation
23:18:33 <Malice_> That sounds bad.
23:18:54 <stassats`> basically, remove /usr/local/lib/sbcl and install again
23:19:11 <stassats`> 1.0.58 is oldish and doesn't have all the fixes, but you should be fine for now
23:20:50 <stassats`> and you can use it later to build the current one from sources
23:21:20 <Malice_> that's nice to hear.
23:22:43 <Malice_> Thank you stassats` ! Everything works now :)
23:22:46 <Malice_> You're my savior.
23:23:05 <whartung> \o/
23:23:34 <Malice_> I just have two more questions. First is: I previously installed quicklisp. Do I have to install it again?
23:23:41 <stassats`> no
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23:24:07 <Malice_> That's nice :)
23:24:28 <Malice_> And I can't remember the second question, so I guess it wasn't too important.
23:24:32 <Malice_> Thank you once again.
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23:41:07 <CrazyWoods> what would be a good binding for gui programming using lisp?
23:41:22 <stassats`> commonqt
23:41:34 <Malice_> I remember second question :) How can you exit sbcl faster than typin (SB-EXT:EXIT) ?
23:41:48 <stassats`> C-d
23:41:56 <whartung> (defun q () (sb-ext:exit))
23:41:57 <whartung> (q)
23:42:11 <whartung> does C-d work in emacs?
23:42:36 <CrazyWoods> stassats`: :)
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23:45:55 <Malice_> That's nice. C-d does work in terminal.
23:46:18 <whartung> I know it works in terminal
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23:53:25 <ejnp> What's the best CL Twitter library? Is https://github.com/regularfry/cl-twitter quote good?
23:53:30 <ejnp> *quite
23:53:40 <jaimef> twittering is nice
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00:24:44 <Vivitron```> ejnp: I haven't tried that one. If you try github.com/fons/cl-twitter you'll need to apply the pending pull request to get it to work
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00:26:01 <Xach> enn: chirp has potential
00:26:08 <Xach> cl-twitter by fons i did not like
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00:27:33 <Vivitron```> I use it to print my timeline to my repl and keep a local backup of all seen tweets (for grepping at christmas time!)
00:29:19 <pjb> You can also redirect to a file: (with-open-file (*standard-output* #P"~/my.tweets" :direction :output :if-does-not-exist :create :if-exists :append) (cl-twitter:print-timeline))
00:29:40 <pjb> Of course, you could write a macro to do that more easily at the REPL.
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00:29:56 <pjb> (out "~/my.tweets" (cl-twitter:print-timeline))
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00:33:02 <DalekBaldwin> sweet, I've figured out how to unit-test my macros and read-macros
00:33:33 <Vivitron```> pjb: right, and additionally slurp the file at runtime and make a table of persisted tweet id's then only append when it's a new one.
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00:34:46 <DalekBaldwin> but is there a straightforward way to write tests for code that changes the class graph and other MOP state so that they can be repeated without restarting the lisp image?
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00:38:21 <DalekBaldwin> I'm thinking it would take a lot of implementation-specific low-level voodoo to create something that could be used like (with-metaobject-universe (get-current-universe) ...)
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00:53:06 <jaimef> can you actually modify the reader macro to create a dsl free of parens?
00:53:48 <pjb> Of course.
00:53:51 <pjb> Nothing easier to do.
00:54:07 <jaimef> o|O
00:55:26 <whartung> what delimiter do you want to use instead jaimef ?
00:56:24 <jaimef> no plans atm, was just told dsls in lisp were still paren-laced unlike those in ruby
00:56:44 <whartung> that's because parens and lists are super easy
00:57:33 <whartung> and if you do it that way, many DSLs are little more than just plain old macros
00:57:59 <whartung> so, you should have a really good reason to trump the utility of leveraging the stock reader
00:58:26 <jaimef> so macros are sufficient. ok
00:58:32 <whartung> CAN be, yes
00:58:35 <whartung> depends on the dsl
00:58:57 <whartung> LOOP is a macro, and a DSL all in one, for example.
00:58:57 <pjb> jaimef: there aren't any parentheses in the LOOP dsl: (loop for i from 1 to 10 collect i)
00:59:33 <pjb> vs. (do ((i 1 (1+ i)) (c (list i) (append c (list i)))) ((> i 10) c))
01:00:18 <pjb> But it's trivial to write a reader macro that reads and parse any syntax, as long as it returns a sexp.
01:00:46 <whartung> but in the end, it's still delimited by something (the reader macro has to know when to stop, for example
01:01:05 <whartung> the other nice thing of uses SEXPS is the natural support Lisp editors have for them
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01:03:57 <pjb> whartung: it can be by the syntax.
01:04:05 <whartung> of course
01:04:10 <whartung> depends on the dsl
01:04:47 <whartung> ~BEGIN blah blah blah END
01:04:48 <pjb> #/pascal/  program example; var i:integer; begin i:=10;while i>0 do begin writeln(i); i:=i-1; end; end. (example)
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01:08:07 <pjb> jaimef: the point is that in lisp, 1- everything is a sexp, 2- any form is an expression, 3- macros, compiler macros, and reader macros are all mere functions!
01:08:30 <whartung> yup
01:08:34 <pjb> So if you can write a parser (a function that parse) then you can hook it to a character as a reader macro.
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01:09:00 <whartung> love your name maxpeck
01:09:01 <pjb> If you can write a function that transform sexps to a single form, then you can hook it to a macro.
01:09:09 <pjb> powermax!
01:09:20 <maxpeck> whartung: Thanks. :-)
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01:09:44 <whartung> we recently watched that last month (again...)
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01:17:21 <klltkr_> Hey folks
01:17:53 <jaimef> preach on brother pjb
01:19:39 <zRecursive> preach down/up ?
01:19:55 <whartung> preach forward
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02:04:12 <Renee19>  You can find funny videos here. http://bit.do/my_videos69
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04:16:42 <beach> Good morning everyone!
04:17:33 <cheryllium> Good morning
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04:35:06 <antonv> good morning beach
04:35:08 <antonv> whats up?
04:37:52 <beach> antonv: Oh, lots of work, mainly with SICL.  You?
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04:44:04 <antonv> beach: SICL? No
04:44:14 <antonv> beach: not me, what is SICL?
04:44:43 <beach> I just meant: "what are you up to"
04:44:45 <antonv> beach: nothing much about me
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04:44:51 <antonv> yes, just got it
04:44:59 <antonv> testing ASDF
04:45:06 <antonv> pre release
04:45:19 <beach> I see.  SICL is this: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
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04:47:48 <antonv> beach: Ah, yes, I saw it
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04:48:01 <antonv> good thing
04:49:04 <beach> Thanks.
04:49:21 <antonv> beach: how far you are already with it?
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04:56:12 <beach> antonv: Hard to say.  I think I have at least a few months until I can get a native system to do something at all.
04:56:52 <beach> antonv: After that, there is still work to be done, mainly on the compiler (optimizations and such).
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04:58:08 <cocksmith> do black people know how to program?
04:58:09 <cocksmith> do black people know how to program?
04:58:10 <cocksmith> do black people know how to program?
04:58:11 <cocksmith> do black people know how to program?
04:58:11 <cocksmith> do black people know how to program?
04:58:14 <cocksmith> lol
04:58:15 <cocksmith> lol
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04:58:34 <cocksmith> do niggers know how to program?
04:58:38 <cocksmith> a
04:58:38 <cocksmith> a
04:58:39 <cocksmith> a
04:58:39 <cocksmith> a
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05:43:52 <theos> ..
05:44:36 <theos> looks like everyone is targeting #lisp or its just one guy with split personality disorder
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06:03:37 <Rachel24>  Hi! I give you some videos. I hope you like! http://bit.do/my_videos69
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06:28:07 <theos> p_l is it an auto-ban script you have? or do you do it manually?
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06:41:25 <p_l> theos: manually
06:41:36 <p_l> theos: It just happens that I woke up at unholy hour
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06:43:33 <theos> p_l haha seriously?
06:44:08 <p_l> theos: ~02:30
06:44:14 <theos> :D
06:44:26 <theos> maybe you can write a CL script to do that
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06:44:49 <p_l> theos: maybe. I should honestly double down on research for my dissertation instead -_-;
06:45:00 <Zhivago> We already have a p_l script. :
06:45:15 <theos> p_l true. all the best!
06:45:57 <theos> p_l can i ask what the title is?
06:46:15 <p_l> the subject matter is (usable) Data Security in Semantic Web
06:46:45 <theos> interesting
06:47:41 <p_l> goal is implementing a proxy that can sit between multiple merged semantic/linked data sources and clients, "pruning" the information based on high-level descriptions of what each user is allowed to know
06:48:47 <theos> like a control center?
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06:51:49 <p_l> theos: as a replacement for "everyone knows everything" (common in many modern applications) or manually exporting data, instead making multiple SPARQL endpoints for different "roles" - for example the billing system might be able to access patient's operation history, but it is only allowed to access what is necessary to calculate bills, while medical personnel should not see financial data etc.
06:51:57 <p_l> (a contrived example, though)
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06:54:04 <p_l> the interesting part is where the query might search and use the data the client is not allowed to know, because it only returns data it is allowed to know (although certain analysis is possible to recover hidden information, in this case the assumption is that you're allowed to know generics like "A is related to B" but not "A is related to B through common information in D,C,E (with contents of said information)"
06:56:18 <p_l> the bit about usability comes from ability to describe constraints in high-level, instead of (currently available) per-triple, manually specified model, or whole database
06:56:44 <theos> p_l ah! everyone has information on a need-to-know basis
06:57:25 <p_l> theos: yeah, except instead of starting from "no one has need to know", I'm thinking more of adding "constraints"
06:58:08 <p_l> hopefully I'll end up implementing it in Lisp
06:58:11 <theos> p_l nice. the system is in CL?
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06:59:00 <p_l> there are two certain bits that I am going to use that are written in CL, though in this case it doesn't make a difference because they are opaque binaries to me
06:59:10 <p_l> (Franz's AllegroGraph and Gruff)
06:59:47 <theos> you may read this http://www.w3.org/2002/01/pedal/thesis.html
07:02:25 <p_l> interesting. Thanks!
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07:03:49 <theos> it was funded by DARPA so i guess it should be of some help. i found it interesting too
07:04:13 <p_l> it's a bit out of date, though
07:04:55 <p_l> from around the beginning of the research into semantic web :)
07:05:09 <theos> 2002 hmm :/
07:06:03 <p_l> at least one of the papers I'm supposed to read is from this year...
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07:07:51 <theos> haha. its all new to me though :D
07:09:21 <p_l> eh, maybe I should call Franz if they'll let me use ACL again
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07:21:46 <theos> this one looks new http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s13740-012-0014-9.pdf
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07:24:37 <p_l> hmmm... will see.
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07:25:11 <p_l> ah, they have a bit different scope
07:25:28 <p_l> my project involves the partitioning step as well, which they assume should be already done
07:26:10 <theos> hmm
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07:26:50 <p_l> still interesting
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07:27:07 <p_l> (even if a bit too obsessed with social networks)
07:29:18 <theos> will you make your thesis public?
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07:29:55 <p_l> theos: yes
07:30:06 <theos> nice :)
07:30:14 <p_l> it has little worth to me without making it publicly available :)
07:30:50 <Bike> i don't think i've heard of a non-available thesis outside of the military
07:31:11 <p_l> Bike: some papers end up behind paywalls
07:31:17 <theos> ^^
07:31:43 <theos> sometimes the funding agency doesnt want to release the paper
07:31:54 <p_l> fortunately, I am not bound by one
07:31:57 <Bike> oh, that kind of public
07:33:38 <theos> (is linnuxx pm'ing "aquarium feed" links to anyone else?)
07:35:26 <Bike> yes
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07:41:33 <jaimef> ok now to get this blasted ecl working
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08:03:34 <jaimef> hmm would love to get a binary version of this hello world from lispworks
08:03:55 Ana25 [~Ana25@37.221.169.147] has joined #lisp
08:03:58 <Ana25>  Hi! I give you some videos. I hope you like! http://bit.do/my_videos69
08:04:47 <jaimef> why do they spam here?
08:04:50 -!- Ana25 [~Ana25@37.221.169.147] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:05:18 <rob3> jaimef: cuz they know the know know wow wow
08:05:33 <zRecursive> relax guys here :)
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08:13:30 <flip214> Is there a library that provides thread-safe PUSH and POP? would be needed for a connection pool.
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08:21:05 <jaimef> wow quicklisp is fscking fast
08:21:21 <jaimef> lispworks rather, is really fast
08:26:12 <theos> faster than sbcl?
08:26:28 <H4ns> jaimef: quite likely
08:26:34 <p_l> theos: SBCL compiler is well known for taking its time
08:26:48 <theos> p_l oh
08:26:50 <p_l> which would the most visible difference in using quicklisp
08:27:18 <jaimef> lispworks vs sbcl rather
08:27:22 <p_l> I believe it was once mentioned that we could make it slower by plugging in an AI, but not that much
08:27:38 <jaimef> getting 2x perf on silly web app
08:28:18 <p_l> hmmm
08:28:51 huffjenkem [~androirc@172.56.30.228] has joined #lisp
08:29:18 <jaimef> well nice to know there are commercial options for an app
08:30:55 <theos> is sbcl 64bit slow on linux too?
08:31:34 <huffjenkem> I need to write a lisp app that simulates the ratio of black people huffing jenkem to sewage waste buildup. How do I find the formula?
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08:34:31 <brucem> p_l: you there?
08:34:32 <bjorkintosh> do you lithperth sleep?
08:35:27 <huffjenkem> Does anyone know why niggers huff jenkem? I'll give you 30 bitcoin for an explanation
08:35:46 <bjorkintosh> mods!
08:36:11 <huffjenkem> ?
08:36:35 <zRecursive> how much is 30 bitcoin compared with US$ ?
08:36:45 <bjorkintosh> it's fiddy cent.
08:37:05 <huffjenkem> 30 bitcoin is around 12000
08:37:25 <zRecursive> 12000 cents
08:37:25 <huffjenkem> I got it free since I mine
08:38:14 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@182.6.15.109.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
08:38:51 <bjorkintosh> TANSTAAFbitcoin
08:39:26 <huffjenkem> My rig was super powerful and back in the day I got lots of 50 btc blocks
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08:45:52 <p_l> brucem: yes
08:46:03 -!- p_l has set mode +b *!*androirc@172.56.30.*
08:46:04 -!- huffjenkem [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (huffjenkem)
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08:46:31 <p_l> sorry, I was reading up new stuff in other window
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08:46:53 <brucem> linnuxx also PM'd a (presumably) spam link.
08:47:00 <p_l> (and I have no synchronization of Irssi notifications between shell server and local)
08:47:09 -!- therik [~therik@109.110.247.39] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:47:14 <p_l> brucem: can't do much about PMs without being server sysop
08:47:26 <p_l> you don't have to be in the channel to send PMs
08:47:34 <brucem> p_l: I figured if I said something maybe others would :)
08:48:28 <bjorkintosh> ah. so it's a known problem?
08:48:36 <theos> p_l ban on *!*androirc@172.56.30.* will only ban the users with username *androirc AND ip 172.56.30.* . he can join by just changing the username
08:48:48 <p_l> theos: I know, /kb was quicker to type
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08:48:56 <theos> ok :D
08:49:57 <bjorkintosh> but, this being #lisp, and lisp(tM) being the language of AI, shouldn't there be some AIness to the process?
08:50:08 <bjorkintosh> or, failing that, some EMACSing?
08:50:25 <p_l> bjorkintosh: more like people got a bit more interesting things to do, most of the time
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08:50:42 <bjorkintosh> too bad.
08:50:45 <bjorkintosh> this is why AI died.
08:50:54 <p_l> bjorkintosh: it's not dead
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08:51:25 <bjorkintosh> well. it's in the same ring as bsd then :)
08:51:52 <p_l> theos: what was actually banned is everyone using androirc with default setup on T-Mobile's USA 172.56.30.0/24 netblock
08:52:14 <bjorkintosh> TIL what jenkem is.
08:52:17 <bjorkintosh> had never heard of it.
08:52:31 <bjorkintosh> and i just got a pm from linuxx. is this a thing?
08:52:32 <p_l> bjorkintosh: not really. It's just that there's this annoying perception "it's not AI if it works"
08:52:55 <p_l> and there was a serious issue of funding drying up for "AI" so we invented a bunch of other words
08:53:03 <bjorkintosh> machine learning?
08:53:17 <p_l> among others
08:53:28 <bjorkintosh> computer vision. nice.
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08:53:46 <jaimef> lispworks is nice
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08:54:56 <bjorkintosh> are there qt or gnome bindings for cl?
08:55:13 <bjorkintosh> sbcl, specifically?
08:55:13 <p_l> bjorkintosh: every time you use search, every time you plot a route between two points in automated way, every time you search for flights, etc., you deal with AI or stuff that was researched as part of AI
08:55:18 <p_l> bjorkintosh: CommonQT
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08:55:45 <p_l> Don't know about Gnome, GTK had various bindings, at least one tried to implement GObject introspection
08:55:55 <p_l> I see linnuxx got K-lined. Gut.
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08:56:48 <bjorkintosh> i've been reading up on clos.
08:56:53 <bjorkintosh> quite fun, so far.
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08:57:14 <bjorkintosh> especially comparing it with python and eiffel.
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09:17:59 <rob3> 'fiddy cent', lol
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09:40:46 <theos> p_l yes so if he changes the username from androirc to androirc1, he can join again
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09:41:28 *theos* just compiled sbcl 1.1.15 :)
09:42:20 <stassats`> too bad
09:42:34 <theos> and i think slime died with it
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09:44:25 <stassats`> theos: you need at least c3fb5217cc40fb9702cfdc2598996dedc4b09024 for smooth sailing
09:45:27 <stassats`> not for slime, though, that you broke yourself
09:46:12 <theos> so sbcl 1.1.15 wont work with slime?
09:46:16 <stassats`> it will
09:47:05 <theos> how do i accomplish that?
09:47:19 <stassats`> sit back and watch it run
09:47:31 <theos> ?
09:47:46 <stassats`> !
09:48:14 <stassats`> but the c3fb5217cc40fb9702cfdc2598996dedc4b09024 revision has a serious bug fixed
09:48:51 <stassats`> important for x86-64 only
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09:52:13 <theos> i see
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10:15:35 <theos> i get this error "fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 20046(tid 140737353926464):can't load .core for different runtime. Error opening /dev/tty: No such device or address"
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10:16:30 <|3b|> sounds like something wrong with your sbcl install
10:16:31 <theos> i dont think it is XCHG encoding issue
10:16:58 <theos> i compiled sbcl and installed it. didnt show errors
10:17:02 <|3b|> are you running it from a script or anything?
10:17:05 <ggole> Somebody had that not long ago
10:17:29 <theos> i followed the install.txt
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10:17:37 <|3b|> is SBCL_HOME env var set?
10:17:43 <theos> SBCL has been installed: binary /usr/local/bin/sbcl core and contribs in /usr/local/lib/sbcl/
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10:17:59 <|3b|> what does  which sbcl  in a shell say?
10:18:02 <stassats`> can you run it from the terminal?
10:18:04 <ggole> <Malice> " And at initialization, sbcl says "fatal  error[...] can't load .core*"
10:18:30 *|3b|* 's guess is you have another sbcl installed and didn't run the one you thought you did
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10:18:47 <stassats`> a saved core?
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10:19:32 <theos> This is SBCL 1.1.15, an implementation of ANSI Common Lisp.
10:19:47 <theos> looks like its working fine in the terminal
10:20:14 <stassats`> ok, then you're loading wrong core file in emacs
10:20:32 <stassats`> do you have a special inferior-lisp-program?
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10:21:22 <theos> i dont think so
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10:23:51 <stassats`> then you have a special SBCL_HOME
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10:24:26 <theos> i do have an inferior-lisp-program. its sbcl
10:24:27 <stassats`> theos: what's echo $SBCL_HOME and what's M-: (getenv "SBCL_HOME")?
10:25:01 <theos> i need to change the path to sbcl (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/bin/sbcl")
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10:25:45 <stassats`> so, you have another sbcl in PATH?
10:26:44 <theos> i changed inferior-lisp-program path to /usr/local/bin/sbcl and it works
10:27:13 <theos> thanks
10:27:42 <theos> is there a way to check from slime prompt the version of sbcl its using?
10:28:24 <stassats`> clhs l-i-v
10:28:25 <specbot> lisp-implementation-version: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_lisp_i.htm
10:29:15 <theos> pretty handy. its 1.1.15. thanks :)
10:29:45 <stassats`> but why would "sbcl" not invoke "/usr/local/bin/sbcl"?
10:29:48 <stassats`> you have a wrapper script or something?
10:29:58 <theos> i still have 1.1.12 in /usr/bin/
10:30:23 <stassats`> better remove it then
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10:30:39 <theos> no idea. the inferior-lisp-program was set in .emacs to /usr/bin/sbcl
10:31:20 <theos> hmm i will keep a copy of it for backup in case i have problems with 1.1.15
10:32:41 <theos> does the inferior-lisp-program decide what slime loads? or is it a failsafe?
10:32:54 <stassats`> failsafe for what?
10:34:16 <theos> failsafe in case slime cant find the program or the program has error
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10:34:30 <stassats`> which program?
10:34:34 <theos> sbcl..
10:34:43 <stassats`> i don't understand what you're talking about
10:34:54 <stassats`> how would slime know to search for sbcl?
10:34:58 <theos> yes
10:35:06 <theos> which sbcl binary to use
10:35:22 <stassats`> slime isn't a part of sbcl
10:35:43 <theos> ok. how would emacs know to search for sbcl?
10:35:59 <stassats`> you tell it to
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10:36:34 <theos> in .emacs with (setq inferior-lisp-program /path/to/sbcl) ?
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10:36:45 <stassats`> either via inferior-lisp-program or via slime-lisp-implementations, or via invoking slime-start directly
10:37:21 <theos> which way is recommended?
10:37:46 <stassats`> none
10:37:52 <theos> ok. thanks
10:38:52 <stassats`> i use different implementations, so i defined M-x sbcl M-x ccl M-x ecl, etc.
10:39:24 <theos> nice
10:40:22 <p_l> theos: the "androirc" part is set by the client :)
10:40:47 <p_l> not the nickname
10:40:49 <theos> p_l oh so the user cant change the username?
10:41:10 <p_l> theos: depends on the client. In this case, nope, unless he was only spoofing AndroIRC
10:41:37 <theos> i see. looks like he couldnt figure it out yet :)
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10:42:13 <stassats`> if he were serious, he would just change IP
10:42:40 <p_l> stassats`: he was on dynamic
10:43:26 <p_l> a bored idiot middle schooler (if not legally, then mentally) with too much time and android handset on T-Mo
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10:47:13 <stassats`> flip214: when will you apply my patch?!
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11:03:11 <theos> does sbcl do well with threads?
11:03:17 <stassats`> yes
11:03:25 <theos> or multiple cores
11:03:39 <|3b|> reasonably well
11:03:52 <theos> awesome :)
11:04:03 *|3b|* doesn't know of any CLs that are particularly better
11:05:06 <|3b|> (possibly less reasonably well on windows though, at least last time i looked)
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11:05:40 <theos> i use sbcl 64bit on linux
11:06:35 <theos> i am guessing the compile time also improves with 64bit+linux?
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11:07:14 <stassats`> compile time of what?
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11:07:29 <theos> sbcl compiling files
11:07:45 <stassats`> compared to what?
11:08:36 <theos> lispworks for example. macros compilation time say
11:09:14 <stassats`> who cares
11:09:54 <theos> just an estimate would be nice. but yeah it doesnt matter much
11:11:41 <|3b|> sbcl compiles slowly, but produces fast code
11:12:01 <|3b|> develop on ccl if it is slow enough for you to care, or get a faster computer :)
11:12:30 <theos> i have a faster computer so its good :)
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11:25:47 <flip214> stassats`: was that 282?
11:25:58 <stassats`> the one with printing hashtables
11:26:10 <flip214> ah yes.276.
11:26:30 <stassats`> and the only reason i was soliciting for a new ECL maintainer
11:26:47 <stassats`> otherwise my time creating it would have been wasted
11:27:40 <flip214> stassats`: done
11:27:45 <stassats`> 282 looks like a serious bug
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11:28:43 <stassats`> cool, two new commits to ECL!
11:31:03 <stassats`> flip214: https://sourceforge.net/p/ecls/bugs/278/ could be an easy fix too
11:31:28 <stassats`> though, maybe closer-mop works around it, and it may break such a workaround
11:32:29 <flip214> breaking closer-mop is not a concern. a month later, with a new ql distribution, all should be fine again.
11:33:01 <stassats`> no closer-mop does not work around it, not fixing this would leave it broken
11:33:45 <flip214> stassats`: https://sourceforge.net/p/ecls/bugs/283/ I don't understand. where does g-f b come from?
11:34:18 <stassats`> flip214: ensure-generic-function-using-class creates it
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11:36:01 <flip214> ah, ok. I understand the bug.
11:36:04 <flip214> fixing it will take longer.
11:36:20 <stassats`> i'll make a patch for no-applicable-method
11:36:46 <stassats`> what's funny is that it was right and was fixed in 41c4586f65f69298f133b3ad4f8fba2beaf47d64
11:37:36 <flip214> I guess one of the first things I'll do is to put some tests in there ...
11:37:48 <stassats`> "fixed"
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13:31:59 <stassats`> ok, got no-applicable-method to work as intended
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13:37:50 <stassats`> flip214: attached to https://sourceforge.net/p/ecls/bugs/278/
13:40:13 <stassats`> half of clos being implement in C isn't exactly fun
13:46:56 <beach> Is this still ECL?
13:47:13 <beach> Oh, yes, I guess so... ecls.
13:47:14 <stassats`> ECL is still ECL
13:47:57 <beach> Is there a reason that a large part of CLOS is implemented in C?
13:47:58 <stassats`> two commits already, after months of silence, exciting, isn't it?
13:48:06 <beach> Yes, very.
13:48:14 <beach> Not that I use it myself, but still.
13:48:15 <stassats`> beach: probably to make it faster
13:48:23 <Zhivago> I'd suspect bootstrapping, also.
13:48:34 <stassats`> beach: i don't use it either, but fixing bugs is fun either way
13:48:40 <beach> I agree.
13:48:58 <Krystof> how much CLOS is written in C?  Does it look like a closette or is it an independent reimplementation?
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13:50:59 <stassats`> it looks like some plumbing is done in C
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14:12:01 <theos> imo, lisp software should be written in lisp
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14:13:46 <Poenikatu> I have a directory called "Elutujo" and when I issue the command in ccl (directory "~/Elutujo") it returns NIL. How do I ensure that the  character is properly rendered and recognised?
14:14:30 <stassats`> -K utf-8
14:14:39 <Xach> Poenikatu: that's not how DIRECTORY works.
14:14:49 <Xach> Poenikatu: try (directory "~/<your path>/*.*") or similar.
14:15:01 <Poenikatu> Xach: Ok
14:15:13 <stassats`> Xach: it will still return #p"~/Elutujo" if it exists
14:15:17 <stassats`> on ccl
14:15:56 <Poenikatu> Xach: I still get NIL
14:16:03 <Xach> stassats`: ok
14:16:15 <stassats`> -K utf-8 is for the terminal only
14:16:18 <stassats`> (setf ccl:*default-file-character-encoding* :utf-8 ccl:*default-socket-character-encoding* :utf-8 (pathname-encoding-name) :utf-8 ccl:*default-external-format* :utf-8)
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14:16:42 <beach> theos: All software should be written in Lisp! :)
14:16:54 -!- mood_ is now known as mood
14:16:55 <theos> beach exactly!
14:17:04 <beach> theos: Seriously, I don't think I would even consider writing, say, a C compiler in C.
14:17:15 <stassats`> Poenikatu: put that into your ~/.ccl-init.lisp
14:17:16 <theos> :D
14:17:37 <pjb`> p_l: I'd argue that it makes a difference what opaque binary were programmed in.  We should take IR pictures of processors running the "same" program, written in C or written in Lisp, and I'm sure we'll detect differences showing that the processor is much happier running the lisp compiled code than the C one.
14:18:16 <stassats`> -K utf-8 command line argument is important too if you want to run it from the command line
14:18:27 <Poenikatu> stassats`: I did the (setf ... command and then the previous (directory command and it worked. Yes, I shall put it into my ~/.clc-init.lisp
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14:21:05 <stassats`> pjb`: that doesn't make any sense
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15:08:46 <Poenikatu> What's special about 3pm (UTC)? Why have so many just joined in the last few s?minute
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15:31:50 <theos> why cant i find any material on ring buffers? are they not used?
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15:33:49 <theos> perhaps, this is not a good time to ask
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15:34:49 <pjb> More probably, they're so obvious, that any competent programmer who just understand the term "ring buffer" is able to infer by himself how to implement them and how to use them.
15:34:49 <pjb> No need for any literature!
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15:35:46 <theos> you are kidding right?
15:35:56 <pjb> But that's just my opinion. I guess you could google for ring buffer tutorial.
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15:36:29 <theos> i did and there is no article even talking about them
15:36:47 <pjb> Not really.  I'm often quite surprized how many questions are asked on so basic and obvious things.
15:36:58 <brucem> https://www.google.com/search?q=ring+buffer
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15:37:22 <brucem> looks like a lot of material covering them.
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15:37:32 <theos> i meant ring buffers in CL
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15:38:32 <pjb> My point.
15:38:33 <pjb> You won't find much PhD thesis about bytes and 6-bit vs. 8-bit and so on.
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15:38:39 <brucem> https://www.google.com/search?q=ring+buffer+lisp .. again, material covering implementations.
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15:39:13 <net4all_> theos: first hit on google http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_buffer
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15:39:33 <pjb> Why? I get 118,000 google hits on https://www.google.com/search?q=ring+buffer+tutorial
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15:40:15 <pjb> theos: again, quite obvious how you could use a circular list to implement a ring buffer.
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15:40:34 <pjb> theos: the only trick is to keep a reference to the "last" element of the circular list instead of the first.
15:40:53 <pjb> But again, it's an obvious optimization, that occurs naturally when you write the code.
15:41:19 <net4all_> theos: https://github.com/gwkkwg/cl-containers/blob/master/dev/ring-buffers.lisp https://github.com/e-user/cl-heredoc/blob/master/src/ring-buffer.lisp
15:41:24 <net4all_> also first hits
15:41:55 <pjb> Don't then learn how to use google in nursery schools nowadays?
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15:42:44 <stassats`> pjb: you are real helpful
15:43:13 <pjb> I'm not helpful, I'm amazed.
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18:08:40 <Poenikatu> What, in the CLHS, is the difference between deleting and expunging a file?
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18:14:18 <White_Flame> Poenikatu: I believe that has to do with more extensive features of older filesystems
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18:14:57 <White_Flame> Are you specifically referring to OPEN?
18:15:03 <White_Flame> with :rename-and-delete?
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18:15:24 <White_Flame> I suspect its implication is that a new version of the file is created, for filesystems which support versioning
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18:17:37 <White_Flame> also http://www.cliki.net/Issue%20CLOSE-FILE-OPENED-WITH-SUPERSEDE
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19:28:56 <Poenikatu> White_Flame: Yes, open, and thanks for your remarks
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19:41:22 <WarWeasle> If I use accessors or #'slot-value in trivial-garbage, am I going to get the slot's value when it finalizes?
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19:42:25 <stassats`> on what are you planning to use it?
19:42:43 <stassats`> if you close over the object you're finalizing, you'll stop it from being collected
19:42:46 <WarWeasle> stassats`: integers. Namely opengl object ids.
19:43:07 <WarWeasle> I have wrapper objects which should close the handles.
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19:43:31 <stassats`> you need to close over the integer handles, not the wrapper objects
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19:44:43 <WarWeasle> stassats`: In the initialize-instance I create the finalizer which (should) run when the CLOS object is destroyed. I create a lambda function with (slot-value this 'id).
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19:45:18 <WarWeasle> so (Finalize this (lambda () (kill-with-fire (slot-value this 'id)))
19:45:43 <stassats`> that's not going to work
19:46:07 <WarWeasle> stassats`: it's going to try to call the this object isn't it.
19:46:14 <stassats`> should be (let ((id (id this))) (Finalize this (lambda () (kill-with-fire id))))
19:46:16 <stassats`> WarWeasle: no, it will never be called
19:46:36 <WarWeasle> stassats`: circular refernence
19:46:45 <WarWeasle> reference
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19:46:54 <WarWeasle> ok, thanks!
19:46:58 <stassats`> just a reference
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19:47:33 <WarWeasle> Well the object won't be destroyed until the finalizer is run which won't run until the object is destroyed...
19:48:01 <stassats`> that's not right
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19:48:31 <stassats`> the finalizer for the wrapper object will be run when there's no references to the wrapper object
19:48:48 <stassats`> and referencing the wrapper object from the finalizer function will ensure that this never happens
19:48:54 <WarWeasle> stassats`: Yes.
19:49:07 <WarWeasle> oh, thought that was a question.
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20:11:53 <White_Flame> Why do finalizer APIs never pass in the object being finalized as a parameter to the finalization function?  The object should still be intact, and that way the function can use the mutated state of the object instead of on the initial closure.  Is there a technical reason this isn't done?
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20:13:13 <pjb> I don't know what you're saying, all the finalizer APIs I've seen always passed the finalized object as argument.
20:13:46 <White_Flame> sbcl & trivial-garbage don't, at least
20:14:08 <pjb> see for example: http://common-lisp.net/project/trivial-garbage/
20:14:27 <White_Flame> the function is a 0-arg lambda
20:14:29 <pjb> right.
20:14:38 <White_Flame> so the function is not called with the object being finalized as a parameter
20:14:59 <pjb> So forget what I said. In other OO languages, finalizers are instance methods, so
20:16:15 <stassats`> White_Flame: that would be needed if you could define finalizers for a class of objects, for a single object, it's not needed
20:16:17 <White_Flame> right, I actually mean Common Lisp.  While I've used Java's a bit, I haven't done much finalizer-specific work elsewhere
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20:17:01 <pjb> stassats`: even. One could imagine that you always use the same finalizer function for a whole bunch of objects of the same class.  Here you have to create a closure for each object.
20:17:22 <White_Flame> stassats`:  Mutable data objects contain state.  If your cleanup is specific to the state of what's contained in the object in particular, that means holding the objects' data outside the object, so the finalizer can see it
20:17:57 <White_Flame> regardless of the object's type
20:18:13 <stassats`> changing the resource a wrappers wraps isn't the great idea
20:18:27 <stassats`> since if you just change the value, it will never be freed
20:18:29 <White_Flame> yes, but it's within the scope of what programs do
20:19:03 <stassats`> being bad is within the scope of programs indeed
20:19:34 <White_Flame> and not all finalized objects are simple wrappers
20:19:43 <pjb> Also, if you keep that closure around, your object is never garbage collected so the finalizer is never called
20:20:02 <stassats`> pjb: that's what was discussed in the beginning
20:21:28 <pjb> In the beginning there was chaos, then netsplits.
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20:39:20 <DalekBaldwin> is there a way to query whether a variable is special?
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20:39:44 <stassats`> no and yes
20:40:03 <stassats`> there's cltl2 extension, variable-information
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20:40:43 <stassats`> (and (boundp 'x) (not (constantp 'x))) can be used for special bound variables
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20:42:02 <DalekBaldwin> so variable-information may or may not be available on a per-implementation basis?
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20:42:15 <stassats`> yes
20:42:25 <stassats`> what do you need this information for?
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20:43:48 <DalekBaldwin> the usual, insane metaprogramming delusions
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21:16:16 <stassats`> flip214: another patch for you: https://sourceforge.net/p/ecls/bugs/282/
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21:50:12 <pjb> stassats`: (progn (setf (symbol-value 'x) 42) (and (boundp 'x) (not (constantp 'x))  (eql (symbol-value 'x) (funcall (let ((x 33)) (lambda () x)))))) --> nil
21:51:47 <oleo> ?
21:52:00 <oleo> it's already failing at constantp
21:52:09 <oleo> what's to wonder about that ?
21:52:24 <pjb> (not (constantp 'x)) --> t
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21:52:26 <pjb> no fail.
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21:53:05 <pjb> But I would say,  rather than providing random invalid forms, why not just read comp.lang.lisp?  In April 2011, I provided a perfectly good specialp function.
21:53:46 joast [~rick@cpe-24-160-56-92.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp
21:53:48 <oleo> when is something considered constant, when it's declared to be so and when it's defined via defconstant ?
21:54:37 <pjb> No. Something like: (defun constantp (x) (eql (eval x) (eval x))) but more general and with the 4th dimension.
21:54:51 <pjb> Ie. a constant is a form that always evaluate to the same object.
21:55:08 <pjb> (constantp (make-array 1)) --> t
21:55:22 <pjb> Not to be confused with literalp or immutablep.
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21:56:30 <pjb> On the other hand, with the usual news search and browse engine on the web, you have an excuse not to search and read it (thru the web).  Just download the archive text message, and read that.
22:02:59 <stassats`> undefined behaviour is so undefined
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22:33:09 <smithzv> Is there a way to make sb-sprof order the flat report by total time rather than self time?
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22:33:34 <stassats`> flip214: and a patch to 275
22:33:46 <stassats`> probably the last from for now
22:33:51 <stassats`> from me
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22:40:23 <smithzv> never mind, I think I see how you do it with the report function and :sort-by :cumulative-samples
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22:55:17 <stassats`> well, i couldn't resist fixing another ECL bug, #262, boy, is ECL buggy
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23:20:00 <jaimef> anyone using lispworks for freeware stuff?
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23:20:23 <stassats`> it's useless
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23:25:12 <_death> ediware?
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23:45:40 <Xach> jaimef: regex coach
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00:04:55 <Naomi25>  You can find funny videos here. http://bit.do/my_videos69
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00:05:51 *jaimef* finds lw pretty nice and fast, nice alternative to slime/emacs
00:06:09 <jaimef> just wish I could see how big the binaries were for deploys
00:06:16 <Xach> lispworks is a quality implementation for sure.
00:06:24 <Xach> great, supportive user group too.
00:06:52 <jaimef> now if I could justify the expense for freeware stuff
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00:25:24 <Xach> I justify expensive toys by trying to occasionally make money with them
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00:28:06 <jaimef> :D
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00:51:29 <jaimef> Xach what setup do you use for coding cl?
01:00:24 <Xach> jaimef: for personal use, i use sbcl and emacs+slime on amd64 most of the time. for work i use clozure cl and its ide, and I've used LispWorks with slime in the past
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01:13:52 <xristos> Xach: where do you work?
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01:19:55 <Xach> xristos: At my desk, usually, but sometimes I grab the laptop and sit on the couch.
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01:21:50 <Xach> I work for the greatest and best Lisp consulting company in the world, Clozure Associates!
01:22:17 <xristos> geat
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01:38:49 <zRecursive> Xach: Can Clozure Associates make money ?!
01:39:07 <Xach> zRecursive: I think the federal government has a monopoly on that
01:39:26 <Xach> specifically the U.S. Bureau of Engraving and Printing
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01:40:49 <zRecursive> In fact, i never heard of anyone making money by Lisp . thanks
01:40:49 -!- ggherdov [sid11402@unaffiliated/ggherdov] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
01:41:09 <syao> hello, is there a book on software design in functional programming? I was searching, but found none.
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01:41:31 <Xach> zRecursive: What do you think that indicates?
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01:45:37 <Fade> I've been solving client problems with common lisp for more than five years. Happily, the clients all paid.
01:45:40 <Xach> Well, I can't discuss it any further, but I think you'll find that plenty of people make money with Lisp projects, if you pay close enough attention.
01:45:41 <Fade> well, mostly.
01:46:43 <Fade> certainly the defaults weren't any worse than clients served in other languages. :)
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01:51:10 <Fade> 'course, now that we've fed the troll..
01:51:14 *Fade* wanders off again
01:51:41 <zRecursive> Xach: I feel lisp is VERY good to learn programming
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01:52:51 <zRecursive> but not for making money
01:53:08 <Xach> zRecursive: I'm happy that you are wrong in that regard.
01:53:53 <zRecursive> yeah, i'm happy too
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02:04:10 <pjb> Xach: actually, it's not the goverments anymore, in most our countries.  It's the private (very partial reserve) banks.  They create money as soon as they lend it to customers (including the governments!).
02:04:35 <pjb> Xach: perhaps you're confusing making money with printing bank notes.
02:04:35 |3b|`` [bbb@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:5b65] has joined #lisp
02:05:06 <pjb> (and even that, it's the federal bank (a private bank), not the government that does it, IIRC).
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02:07:02 <Agatha18>  Here some videos. I hope you like them! http://bit.do/my_videos69
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02:26:19 <Guest82101> Lisp sucks. Fortran is better
02:27:01 <iwilcox> Is it troll hour?
02:27:32 <r0b1> Guest82101: banana?
02:28:55 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.203.109] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:29:07 <Guest82101> Bananas are for niggers
02:29:23 <r0b1> smooth
02:30:38 <Guest82101> The only troll is you iwilcox you faggot who has an inappropriate name
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02:35:25 <jaimef> Xach thanks for the info
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02:37:32 <r0b1> ty
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02:48:41 <jaimef> ugg
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02:49:15 <jaimef> clozure cl is faster for me than sbcl. did not foresee that
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03:14:53 <Xach> At what?
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03:20:05 <WarWeasle> If I need to build a c++ wrapper library to make a package work, can it be added to quicklisp?
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03:33:13 <beach> Good morning everyone!
03:33:19 <jaimef> Xach https://gist.github.com/9166457
03:33:51 <jaimef> thought perhaps it was a Darwin optimization, but even on linux it's much faster
03:34:52 <jaimef> using boom I get 200rps on ccl, and 66 on sbcl.
03:36:09 <jaimef> thanks Xach for the ccl recommendation. it's on par with lw.
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03:44:40 <beach> Xach: Did you say you were invited to talk at ECLM?
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04:04:52 <Ashley27>  You can find funny videos here. http://bit.do/my_videos69
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06:04:26 <Natalia21>  Hi! I give you some videos. I hope you like! http://bit.do/my_videos69
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06:49:38 <r0b1> is this thing for real
06:49:46 <r0b1> it has been doing it for days
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12:26:49 <theos> are there books which use CL code? i found a some
12:28:08 <oleo> gentle intro, onlisp, ansi-lisp, paip, LoL, .......
12:28:14 <oleo> many
12:29:02 <jackdaniel> nightfly_: javascript is more C-ish than lisp
12:29:41 <theos> i should rephrase it. are there books which dont teach CL but use CL?
12:31:16 -!- cross_ is now known as cross
12:31:28 <Code_Man`> paip isnt about cl
12:31:46 <oleo> it is
12:31:54 <oleo> amongst others
12:31:55 <Code_Man`> tought it was about ai
12:31:58 <jackdaniel> theos: AI Modern Approach use pseudocode, but has implementation in lisp (as well as java)
12:32:03 <oleo> yes ofc, but it's about cl too
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12:32:13 <oleo> at least the first few chapters
12:32:17 <Code_Man`> i heard you could to paip in python
12:32:23 <theos> i have paip
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12:32:28 <jackdaniel> http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/
12:32:38 <jackdaniel> there you have online code
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12:32:42 <jackdaniel> repository
12:32:48 <theos> jackdaniel the one by norvig?
12:32:56 <jackdaniel> yup
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12:34:56 <theos> hmm i am thinking about books that use CL for music generation etc. that are use CL and or AI in other fields
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12:35:26 <jaimef> there is a clojure project to do music
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12:37:02 <theos> like finance/investing or various engineering applications etc
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12:40:14 <jaimef> there is one about business analytics
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12:46:07 <theos> i see. thanks
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12:49:29 <jlg> morn
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13:10:23 <jaimef> hi
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13:45:53 <bjorkintosh> jaimef, what is it called?
13:46:04 <bjorkintosh> theos, there's a book on nyquist.
13:46:46 <theos> bjorkintosh i will look it up. thanks. any more books with other applications? :D
13:47:27 <bjorkintosh> numerous.
13:47:27 <stassats> why do you need books which use CL is the language?
13:47:30 <stassats> as
13:47:45 <bjorkintosh> there's a very old one called 'computer-aided financial analysis'.
13:47:46 <stassats> there's nothing special about CL that you can't use other books
13:48:23 <bjorkintosh> practical common lisp is another one.
13:48:27 <theos> so that i can learn how to use CL in applications
13:48:41 <stassats> you learn that by writing them
13:49:42 <bjorkintosh> land of lisp is yet another.
13:49:51 <theos> i came across the works of David Cope for music composition.
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13:52:06 <theos> thanks
13:53:52 <pjb> francogrex: you could try clicc.
13:54:09 <pjb> francogrex: http://www.cliki.net/site/search?query=translate+to+C
13:54:19 <pjb> cliki.net is better than #lisp !
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13:54:56 <theos> cliki is very good
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13:55:22 <bjorkintosh> theos, are you learning cl?
13:56:10 <dlowe> heh. I always want the opposite - to translate C into CL
13:57:13 <theos> bjorkintosh yes :)
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13:57:52 <bjorkintosh> why, theos?
13:57:57 <theos> bjorkintosh i found ACL to be easier to understand than PCL
13:58:33 <theos> bjorkintosh for all kinds of programming needs. AI specially.
13:58:54 <bjorkintosh> you don't need cl for that. you can use whatever you want!
13:58:59 <stassats> why is such a question being asked in #lisp?
13:58:59 <bjorkintosh> (or whatever you know).
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13:59:23 <bjorkintosh> cl is a general purpose language, not an AI language.
14:00:14 <theos> i like CL thats why i am learning it
14:00:25 <bjorkintosh> excellent :)
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14:03:37 <pjb> dlowe: vaciatis
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14:04:28 <pjb> bjorkintosh: AI is coming back into favor, perhaps we should stop saying that CL is not an AI language?
14:04:40 <stassats> such an easy name to remember, it's actually vacietis
14:04:44 <dlowe> pjb: yeah, I've seen that. Not quite what I had in mind :)
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14:04:53 <Zoe19>  Hi! I give you some videos. I hope you like! http://bit.do/my_videos69
14:05:21 <bjorkintosh> hmmm. what makes CL an AI language but not ... say, prolog, or ruby? or even perl?
14:05:31 <pjb> the bi-hourly bell.
14:05:36 <stassats> bjorkintosh: history
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14:05:46 <dlowe> compiling to a virtual machine and then providing a machine implementation in multiple languages isn't really translating, I feel
14:05:49 <pjb> bjorkintosh: marketting.
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14:06:08 <bjorkintosh> oh. that's a good one, pjb.
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14:14:05 <dlowe> well, lisp did start in an AI lab
14:14:12 <dlowe> so I would say it's historical
14:15:13 <dlowe> I think the more surprising thing is that AI programming turns out to be extremely general purpose
14:15:25 <dlowe> especially here in the 21st century
14:15:44 <bjorkintosh> right. so besides marketing, would there necessarily be a reason to choose CL over python or c++?
14:16:08 <stassats> i joined #lisp not to question the choice of CL
14:16:13 <bjorkintosh> not that i don't like CL
14:16:47 <dlowe> I'm going to say yes and leave it at that.
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14:18:23 <pjb> bjorkintosh: as I said, cliki.net is much better than #lisp: http://cliki.net/performance
14:18:24 <Alfr> bjorkintosh, I guess it depends on your problem.
14:19:14 <bjorkintosh> thanks pjb.
14:19:26 <Xach> beach: yes
14:19:35 <bjorkintosh> since AI's coming back in a big way, i'd very much like to see a new lisp machine.
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14:20:15 <pjb> bjorkintosh: just write a CL DSL library to run cuda code, instant modern lisp machine!
14:20:42 <bjorkintosh> hah!
14:22:44 <zfx> this channel really needs a FAQ for all the 'isn't Lisp for AI' and 'why Lisp over whatever-shitty-language' people who are totally unable to do their own research
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14:25:30 <dlowe> there is a faq. I think it used to be in the title.
14:25:32 <dlowe> http://random-state.net/files/nikodemus-cl-faq.txt
14:25:34 <dlowe> needs some updating though. Quicklisp isn't on there, for instance
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14:29:19 <bjorkintosh> zfx, i always thought it was lisps ambition *not* to be cast only as an AI language.
14:29:40 <zfx> bjorkintosh: it doesn't have an ambition, people have ambitions
14:29:57 <zfx> have you even googled the topic at all?
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14:31:32 <bjorkintosh> i don't care to. i like the language, and that's good enough for my purposes.
14:32:03 <zfx> then why do you care about justifications over whatever other language? just use it and be happy
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16:14:28 <loke_erc> Hello easye
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17:19:59 <beach> Xach: Great!  Me too!
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18:16:27 <p_l> I'd rather go with +r instead of banning a /16 block
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18:31:45 <bad_alloc> Hi, I've got a function walk-midpoints that iterates over a big two dimensional array (a heightmap). It visits certain elements on which I need to call an anonymous function. The anonymous function needs to access other elements of the array, so at the moment I'm passing the array to the anonymous function as a parameter. How can I avoid this (except for using a global variable)?
18:31:55 <bad_alloc> the code in question: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141338
18:32:26 <H4ns> bad_alloc: use a dynamic variable
18:33:01 <jsnell> use a closure
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18:34:52 <jsnell> in that particular example, your callback function could just refer to ARR instead of A
18:35:03 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike
18:35:11 <jsnell> also, indent your code properly :-)
18:35:38 <bad_alloc> jsnell: that works, thanks :D
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18:36:13 <bad_alloc> jsnell: where is my indentation wrong?
18:36:55 <jsnell> the whole body of the LET is indented by 8(?), should be by 2
18:37:08 <slyrus> just sent an email to slime-devel, but if you don't (require 'cl) in your .emacs, (require 'slime) enters an infinite loop
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18:38:27 <bad_alloc> jsnell: I copied that from the slime-repl, it does that sometimes. In a normal lisp buffer it indents properly. :)
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19:02:04 <p_l> eh, will have to make a custom patch for cl-irc...
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19:56:57 <jaimef> https://gist.github.com/9176427 is there a way to put bordeaux-threads:make-thread in place of funcall? or would I need to put it in a lambda?
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20:03:12 <|3b|> jaimef: yeah, i think you need a lambda, since make-thread wants a function of 0 arguments
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20:06:08 <Emily19>  You can find funny videos here. http://bit.do/my_videos69
20:06:22 <wbooze> oh noez
20:06:33 <wbooze> i've seen better onez!
20:06:35 <Zag_> iz funney
20:06:37 <wbooze> muhahahahahaha
20:06:40 -!- Zag_ is now known as Zag
20:06:41 <wbooze> lol
20:06:49 <Zag> much funny
20:06:51 <Zag> so lol
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20:07:34 *wbooze* sniffs!
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20:24:02 <jaimef> how can you force threads to write to the same stdout?
20:24:19 <pjb> Doing nothing.
20:26:01 <pjb> for example: (loop for i  below 3 do (bt:make-thread (let ((i i)) (lambda () (loop repeat 10 do (princ i) (finish-output) (sleep 0.5))))))
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20:27:24 <jlg> jaimef: you might have to rebind *standard-output*, when using bt you can use the :initial-bindings key
20:27:37 <jlg> jaimef: depends on your lisp and probably OS, though
20:28:44 <jlg> pjb: your snippet prints nothing on ccl-1.9/freebsdx8664
20:29:04 <pjb> ok. It works well on linux with slime.
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20:29:50 <stassats> slime needs global io redirection enabled
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20:30:17 <stassats> by putting (in-package #:swank) (defparameter *globally-redirect-io* t) into ~/.swank.lisp
20:31:27 <pjb> and on linux with xterm with ccl-1.9.
20:31:37 <jlg> even with swank:*globally-redirect-io* rebound to T I get the same behaviour
20:31:37 <jaimef> omg ccl is sexy
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20:32:17 <stassats> jlg: rebinding isn't going to do a thing
20:32:20 <stassats> you need to restart
20:32:25 <jaimef> really did not expect it to be smaller AND have  smaller memory footprint than sbcl
20:32:34 <jaimef> faster
20:32:47 <stassats> ccl isn't faster
20:32:56 <jaimef> clozure cl?
20:33:07 <jlg> stassats: ack, thanks. won't try this though now... not my problem but my session =)
20:33:09 <jaimef> hmm boom says otherwise on this particular hunchentoot test
20:33:39 <pjb> Even clisp is faster than sbcl, on some specific tests.
20:33:49 <jaimef> https://gist.github.com/9176844 run the test yourself. boom -c 100 -n 1000 http://localhost:8080
20:33:49 <pjb> That's why all implementations are interesting and survive.
20:33:50 <stassats> jaimef: you can make any implementation look faster
20:34:06 <jaimef> well this is one specific use case. not a benchmark per se
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20:36:16 <jaimef> there is probably some tweaking in sbcl that could yield better results. on osx and linux I've gotten much better results with clack/hunchentoot on ccl than sbcl, much to my surprise
20:37:19 <jaimef> ccl is also using a lot less memory which is nice on a vps with 512MB of ram
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20:52:49 <p_l> is there a way to access current source code position in macro when compiling (with SBCL or CCL specific operations)?
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21:06:37 <pjb> p_l: try: (apropos "SOURCE" "CCL")
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21:17:32 -!- axion_ is now known as axion
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21:25:21 *jaimef* loves eval-last-sexp in the irc client
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21:41:15 <pjb> you mean lisp-eval-last-sexp
21:43:03 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.159.175.232] has joined #lisp
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21:49:11 <jaimef> C-h-k C-x C-e => eval-last-sexp
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22:05:18 <Ashley25>  Hi! I give you some videos. I hope you like! http://bit.do/my_videos69
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22:50:20 <oleo> weeee, can't wait the knobs!
22:50:22 <oleo> lol
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22:51:12 <oleo> hope i'm gonna make some fields i can click in and get the corresp. unicode char.... soon...
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00:04:20 <Maria22>  Hi! I give you some videos. I hope you like! http://bit.do/my_videos69
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02:00:15 <theos> is kicker_ a bot?
02:00:24 <p_l> theos: an attempt at one
02:00:33 <p_l> that apparently crashed when I gave it +o
02:00:35 <theos> p_l interesting
02:00:50 <bjorkintosh> what's kicker written in, p_l ?
02:01:12 <theos> lisp i guess
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02:01:24 <p_l> cl
02:01:30 <bjorkintosh> cool. is it open?
02:01:31 -!- p_l has set mode +o kicker
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02:02:01 <theos> :/
02:02:04 <p_l> bjorkintosh: it's a bastardised hack job done on https://github.com/TeMPOraL/alice
02:04:34 Rachel21 [~Rachel21@95.141.20.196] has joined #lisp
02:04:36 <Rachel21>  You can find funny videos here. http://bit.do/my_videos69
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02:05:10 -!- p_l has set mode +o kicker
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02:05:43 <p_l> ... ehh
02:05:52 <p_l> I'll have to run it from debugger
02:05:54 -!- percopal [~percopal@cpe-72-227-136-13.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: percopal]
02:08:26 <p_l> and the dirty automation script I have for irssi still doesn't handle joins right
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02:14:01 <theos> its kicker vs all the girls now
02:14:12 <p_l> (to be specific - I grabbed a list of ~4940 names to use as template)
02:14:52 <theos> or he can kick after someone posts that link
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02:15:12 <p_l> theos: that's pretty much useless, IMO
02:15:22 <p_l> otoh, yep, I enabled something like that on my client :)
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02:15:47 <theos> just to be sure it doesnt kick a random girl :)
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08:44:59 <|JRG|> little question for you lispers
08:46:12 <|JRG|> let's suppose I have a class with a slot with :accessor MY-SLOT
08:46:33 <|JRG|> (eq #'(my-slot) (symbol-function 'my-slot)) => T
08:46:58 <|JRG|> how can I get the same with #'(setf my-slot)?
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08:47:32 <H4ns> #'(my-slot) ? i have trouble understanding what that is supposed to mean, really
08:48:46 <|JRG|> I want to funcall #'(setf my-slot) starting from the symbol 'my-slot
08:49:44 <Bike> |JRG|: (fdefinition '(setf my-slot))
08:51:50 <|JRG|> Bike: that's it, thank you
08:52:37 <|JRG|> what's the difference between symbol-function and fdefinition?
08:53:03 <Bike> fdefinition can take lists.
08:53:18 <Bike> pretty much no reason to use symbol-function i don't think.
08:53:28 <|JRG|> which was my problem
08:53:30 <|JRG|> yeah
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08:59:22 <loke> |JRG|: can't you just use (setf (SLOT-VALUE)?
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09:01:46 <|JRG|> loke: no method combination I think
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09:02:16 <loke> ah ok
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09:06:32 <Bike> What?
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09:06:47 <jlg> morn
09:06:53 <theos> hi
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09:30:22 <dim> hi
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11:02:02 <jackdaniel> if i want to make ncurses application - is cl-charms complete enough to stick with it?
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12:09:25 <Okasu> jackdaniel: Yep.
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13:18:15 *Xach* feels the excitement of a fresh new day of Lisp hacking!
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13:27:16 <ferada> good morning, i can't seem to remember the name, but wasn't there a library for implementing e.g. a shell script as a frontend to a running lisp instance (instead of spawning a new one, similar to nailgun)?
13:28:29 <jackdaniel> ferada: as a quick solution i suggest running instance in tmux and detaching session
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13:29:33 <Xach> hmm, like as a sort of persistent scripting daemon?
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13:31:24 <ferada> perhaps, at the moment just offloading the slow startup
13:31:32 <ferada> and better *nix integration
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13:34:04 <p_l> ah, fork server? :)
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13:36:56 <ferada> it's no problem to implement it, just laziness and reusing possibly existing solutions
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13:39:27 <ferada> for reference, the one thing i know is http://www.martiansoftware.com/nailgun/protocol.html, which is used by some java/clojure stuff(?) for the exact same reason
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13:48:13 <jackdaniel> ferada: swank + slime-connect?
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13:53:12 <ferada> jackdaniel: yeah that would work with a bit more effort on the client i guess
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14:10:54 *stassats* finds a perfect use for PROG
14:11:23 <stassats> the code looked like (let () (block nil (tagbody ...))) already
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14:27:59 <drl> I had a dolist enclosing a let* enclosing a progn enclosing a loop enclosing an alexandria:switch. I need to use the same alexandria:switch for some other code, so I placed it in a function which I placed at the top level, and then called the function from the place where the code had been. This however generated a "return for unknown block: NIL" error message. This seems to be caused by the function now being out of lexical scope. How can I get the function to wor
14:27:59 <drl> k, so that I don't have to have duplicate code in my program?
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14:30:02 <H4ns> drl: have the function return something that allows the caller inside of the loop to determine that the loop should be ended
14:30:38 -!- Foxboron_ is now known as Foxboron
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14:31:51 <segv-> drl: or use catch/throw
14:32:10 <segv-> (not nearly as clean as just returning a 'stop' value, but you don't have a good stop value)
14:34:33 <drl> H4ns and segv: Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
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21:23:28 -!- names: akersof Yamazaki-kun tkd epsylon [SLB] acieroid eagleflo guaqua arbscht daimrod ft sjl ec felideon emma BlastHardcheese housel cods K1rk_ oGMo Subfusc sytse Petit_Dejeuner__ specbot anunnaki_ felipe iwilcox naryl AntiSpamMeta rk[lies] igorw MightyJoe djinni` j0ni PuercoPop theBlackDragon dRbiG cjwelborn_ WeirdEnthusiast froggey justinmcp_ zz_karupanerura cibs nightshade427 mood Tristam aeth ramus phadthai johs Natch Praise rdd kbtr smull aoh __class__
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21:23:28 -!- names: Foxboron Neptu peccu2 joga abbe Munksgaard fnordbert
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21:32:50 <francogrex> ok
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21:43:28 <oleo> got clocc installed
21:43:43 <oleo> however one file is missing munkres.lisp or so....
21:44:19 <oleo> i just created an empty one to get going with the compilation....
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21:45:04 <oleo> and one other oddity was sb-unix:unix-file-kind instead of sb-impl::native-file-kind used somewhere...
21:45:12 <Xach> clocc is old and dead.
21:45:20 <oleo> anyway, i dl'ed it....
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21:47:27 <Fare> clocc? Maybe you can fix mk-defsystem there... :->
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22:04:18 <whartung> are these guys on an automatic black list or something?
22:05:26 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@li350-154.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
22:05:47 <oleo> p_l++
22:05:50 <oleo> eheh
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22:06:45 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5057:ae50:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp
22:06:58 <whartung> is that a bot?
22:07:27 -!- drewc [~drewc@S0106c8d71945c789.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
22:07:44 <prxq> if p_l is a bot, hard AI has finally arrived
22:07:56 <nyef> Most likely. It comes in, advertises porn, and then leaves. The only way to prevent the advertising is to kickban them on arrival.
22:08:35 <Code_Man`> id watch it if it was lisp related
22:08:50 drmeister [~drmeister@166.170.21.148] has joined #lisp
22:08:55 -!- p_l has set mode -b *!*Mandy24@95.141.20.*
22:09:30 <whartung> well, I just see something log in and being almost insta-banned, that's all. That's why I asked
22:10:14 <Code_Man`> i doubt anyone would do this by hand
22:10:46 <Code_Man`> then again the internet is full with total weird fucks
22:11:11 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
22:11:14 <prxq> no, not full of it.
22:12:17 <Code_Man`> right but there are so p creepy dudes lurking some places
22:13:14 matija [~matija@188-230-156-48.dynamic.t-2.net] has joined #lisp
22:14:36 *francogrex* is downloading Scieneer Common Lisp, just for the heck of it
22:16:13 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@217.9.101.140] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys]
22:17:40 <Fare> francogrex, was it released at long last???
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22:18:18 <francogrex> a free trial Fare it dates from 2009...
22:19:18 -!- mgodshall [~mgodshall@8.20.30.249] has quit [Quit: mgodshall]
22:19:21 <Fare> oh well.
22:19:30 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp
22:19:32 <Fare> my license expired long ago
22:19:41 <Fare> if you have one -- can you test the latest asdf?
22:19:50 <Fare> cd .../asdf ; make t l=scl
22:20:20 <francogrex> ok, I just submitted a request when i have it I will and report back to you
22:20:49 <Fare> douglas crosher sent me a weird reply last time I contacted him...
22:21:29 <Fare> but mainly, he seems not to have much time for scl anymore (including not enough customers)
22:22:42 <francogrex> hmm, they may not be interested in processing my request then. I'm not expecting much anyway, just out of boredom I am doing it
22:24:08 <Fare> if you want unboredom... can you hack cl-launch?
22:24:46 -!- bege_ is now known as bege
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22:27:14 <bege> Fare: I think scl has an automatic system for licenses. Last time I didn't have to write email to anyone.
22:27:24 <bege> Did you try this: https://www.scieneer.com/scl/free.html ?
22:28:12 -!- alezost` is now known as alezost
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22:29:27 <Posterdati> hi
22:29:38 -!- _snits_ is now known as snits
22:29:40 <francogrex> Fare: what features you want added to cl-launch?
22:29:49 <Posterdati> what is this after updating quicklisp? ---> WARNING: Missing client-info.sexp, using mock info
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22:37:15 <Posterdati> ?
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22:39:19 <izirku> Posterdati: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2014/01/recovering-from-yesterdays-update.html
22:39:39 <Posterdati> tx
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22:41:07 <Posterdati> izirku: fixed! thanks
22:41:22 <izirku> Posterdati: glad it worked!
22:41:37 <Posterdati> yes
22:42:47 <francogrex> can one disassemble a memory address I wonder (other than reading the bytes and manually converting using the intel manuals...)
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22:43:49 <Fare> francogrex, I want to make it (1) more like a unix script interpreter
22:43:53 <Fare> (2) more like buildapp
22:44:03 <Fare> (3) debugged and documented
22:44:35 <Fare> optionally, (B) rewritten to be a lisp program that creates a shell script, instead of shell script that create lisp programs.
22:45:02 <Fare> bege: thanks a lot!
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03:09:16 <clop2> what's the difference between somepkg::foo and somepkg:foo?
03:09:44 <loke> clop2: :: allows you to access non-exported symbols
03:09:51 <loke> if the symbol is exported, there is no difference
03:10:17 <clop2> aha, so good discipline would be to use single-colons wherever possible?
03:10:17 <abunchofdollarsi> clop2, http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html
03:10:42 <loke> clop2: Yes. Non-exported symbols are non-exported for a reason. They are internal and not part of a library's interface.
03:10:59 <clop2> great, thanks -- this looks like a nice page
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03:28:21 <bhyde> Yet another proof that everything was invented in the Lisp Machine era: https://twitter.com/munificentbob/status/438755890166915072/photo/1
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03:29:18 <p_l> ah, that
03:29:43 <p_l> Excuse me while I get another mantra of "Poe effect, Poe effect"
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06:57:03 <Oddity> What is the poe effect?
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07:08:56 <theos> minion: poe effect
07:08:56 <minion> does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you?
07:09:04 <theos> :/
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07:46:16 <edgar-rft> "Poe effect" see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Philosophy_of_Composition
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08:02:42 <attila_lendvai> anyone familiar with clon here? (the arg parser) what I want is to partially parse the command line, i.e. parse what makes sense, and give me back a list of args that were not understood. IOW two level arg parsing. I could add a marker like --end-of-runtime-args, but was wondering if there something more sensible
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08:06:09 <attila_lendvai> (clon:remainder) seems relevant
08:06:13 *attila_lendvai* digs deeper
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08:16:30 <aerique> attila_lendvai: i've used it in the past but can't really help with that issue.  i'll look up a link to my repo maybe there's something useful there
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08:20:31 <aerique> attila_lendvai: there's some (remainder) usage in process-command-line-options here: https://github.com/aerique/google-ai-challenge-2011-1-ants/blob/master/src-play-game/play-game.lisp
08:20:53 <attila_lendvai> thanks aerique!
08:21:10 <aerique> hopefully it's useful
08:21:45 <aerique> proxy-bot.lisp also has some clon usage but less of it
08:21:49 *aerique* goes back to work
08:24:44 <aerique> attila_lendvai: last thing, clon probably has improved over the years. it's been a while since i used it and i found the developer to be very responsive to e-mail
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08:25:34 <attila_lendvai> aerique: ok, thanks! I'm stuck now that it errors on unknown commands instead of leaving them in the remainder
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11:08:41 <Krystof> sellout-: right
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11:15:33 <flip214> Help, please. I wondered why ECL calls ERROR when sending forms via swank, and saw that "(:emacs-rex ..." gets the package to evaluate in as string - eg. ":cl-user" (which then isn't found by ECL's find-package).
11:16:02 <flip214> Now some friend said that the same happens for Emacs+Slime, too; and I have it for slimv with SBCL.
11:16:26 <flip214> SBCL _too_ ERRORs for (find-package ":cl-user") - so I'm a bit lost.
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11:17:28 <flip214> Or, better said, I'm thoroughly confused. Should that be a string? If yes, does swank do something about that before calling FIND-PACKAGE (but only for SBCL and not for ECL)?
11:17:57 *flip214* what am I doing here? What is my purpose in life???               ;]
11:19:11 <loke> flip214: the name of the package is not "cl-user"
11:19:15 <loke> It's "CL-USER"
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11:20:03 <pranavrc> To close the parantheses you opened, I'd say, is the purpose of life
11:20:27 <flip214> loke: in sourcefiles there's "(in-package :cl-user)", and the ":cl-user" gets sent to SBCL and ECL.
11:20:45 <flip214> pranavrc: better not to open any, then. Life has no UNWIND-PROTECT.
11:21:27 <pranavrc> heh
11:21:32 <loke> :cl-user is aread as :CL-USER
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11:25:59 <Bike> flip214: clhs entries on in-package and find-package and so on should explain package designators thoroughly
11:26:05 <Bike> or link to explanations of such
11:27:19 <Bike> clhs package designator
11:27:25 <flip214> Bike: that won't explain the swank conventions, and neither any sbcl/ecl differences.
11:27:49 <flip214> although, perhaps SBCL just calls ERROR too, and I just don't notice (because I'm not debugging it)
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12:46:41 <attila_lendvai> anybody knows how to collect the dependencies of an asdf system in asdf3?
12:47:13 <Xach> I have a roundabout way.
12:47:58 <Xach> Fare answered that question a year or two ago on asdf-devel, but I don't remember the answer.
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13:10:20 <attila_lendvai> meanwhile I've found this: (asdf:component-sideway-dependencies system)
13:10:30 <attila_lendvai> I've stored fare's answer, but that didn't contain this
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13:11:33 <attila_lendvai> this is the mail I've stored: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.asdf.devel/3105
13:13:17 -!- karupanerura is now known as zz_karupanerura
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13:14:18 <daGrevis> Lisp is evil, and you'd damned well better write all your code in C++ and XML and JavaScript and PL*SQL and CSS and XSLT and regular expressions and all those other God-fearing red-blooded manly patriotic all-American languages from now on.
13:14:22 <daGrevis> via https://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/the-emacs-problem
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13:22:53 <puchacz> hi, is there typographic distance library for strings (unicode friendly)?
13:23:12 <puchacz> like: mother vs mther - distance 1 deletion
13:23:37 <antoszka> puchacz: levehnstein distance, I think I came across something for that some time ago
13:23:50 <antoszka> (excuse possible wrong spelling)
13:24:00 <flip214> daGrevis: so, let's start resurreting second-climacs!
13:25:20 <puchacz> antoszka, thanks. but no specific library name you can think of?
13:25:22 <daGrevis> btw, is this channel CL oriented?
13:25:27 <theos> yes
13:25:30 <daGrevis> that's fine
13:25:31 <puchacz> deGrevis yes
13:25:45 <antoszka> puchacz: No, I'm not even sure I did actually find something :)
13:25:55 <puchacz> antoszka - nw, thx
13:26:37 <theos> looks like google is down again :/
13:27:10 <puchacz> theos - can google tell me if the library is actually of a good quality?
13:27:22 <Xach> puchacz: i don't think so
13:27:22 <puchacz> difference between "search" and "recommend"
13:27:40 <theos> puchacz cliki can tell :)
13:27:50 <puchacz> theos, ok, I will check
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13:31:10 <antoszka> puchacz: there are simple code samples floating around on the net (not in library form), but they seem to be doing the job.
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13:32:41 <puchacz> antoszka: I found this: http://sett.com/vox/levehnstein-distance-in-racket
13:32:44 <puchacz> scheme though
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13:33:21 <antoszka> there's a common lisp version at ohloh.net code search
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13:33:55 <antoszka> (at least that was one of the top google search results)
13:34:21 <theos> puchacz http://www.cliki.net/levenshtein
13:34:39 <puchacz> theos: thanks
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13:35:32 <antoszka> that one looks really complex compared to the other one i've seen
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13:35:50 <antoszka> forgive not posting the url, but i've got gprs access and i'm only using a remote text-mode browser
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13:38:18 <antoszka> either way, seems to work ok, too.
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14:10:06 <splittist> Wow. Just when you thought SourceForge couldn't get less user friendly, it does. (I haven't really looked at SF for months, though, so probably not news to most of you.)
14:10:23 <loke_erc> I wonder if it would make sense to have a CL pathname interface to a source revision control system. There is already a "version" parameter. :-)
14:11:35 <Xach> It would be interesting to exercise the features that are not, by custom, or fashion, frequently exercised, and see what breaks.
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14:14:05 <loke_erc> Is the version in a pathname in CL an number or a string?
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14:17:09 <Xach> valid pathname version n. a non-negative integer, or one of :wild, :newest, :unspecific, or nil. The symbols :oldest, :previous, and :installed are semi-standard special version symbols.
14:17:51 <loke_erc> Hmm
14:17:55 <loke_erc> so they have to be orderable
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14:23:27 <loke_erc> splittist: I haven't used it for years. What had changed?
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14:25:01 <splittist> more indirection, less actual information per page, harder to find things etc. etc.
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14:30:35 <loke_erc> splittist: Sounds exactly like "modern" web design then?
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14:32:57 <splittist> loke_erc: if only
14:34:07 <loke_erc> Well, the modern web design is all about "negative space", massive fonts with just a few words.
14:34:17 <loke_erc> And infinite scrolling so you can't find what you were looking at
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16:41:02 <jdoles> There is a reason behind this.
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16:45:06 <p_l> jdoles: behind what?
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17:11:00 <slyrus> I have to remind myself when tempted to have functions with optional args -- don't do it! use keywords instead. your future self will thank you later.
17:11:54 <oGMo> often
17:12:25 <oGMo> also don't make block macros without a lambda-list argument, even if you have nothing to put there at first
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17:14:40 <loke_erc> oGMo: I have created some pretty weird macros with pretty bad choices when it comes to arguments
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17:16:03 <loke_erc> oGMo: I'm not so proud of this one: https://github.com/lokedhs/lofn/blob/master/server.lisp#L78
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17:22:27 <oGMo> loke_erc: hah
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17:23:55 <loke_erc> oGMo: It "evolved" to that point (since I have a few internal projects using the library, I had to make any changes backward-compatible)
17:24:24 <oGMo> loke_erc: i've probably made worse myself but yeah it happens
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23:41:36 
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23:41:36 -!- names: QwertyDragon LiamH rk[lies]_ Oddity segv- sheilong percopal paul0 Jayk97 gabot Mathieu Shinmera r0b2 peccu2 jaimef scoofy therik zarul nightfly kbc nitro_idiot_ farhaven_ aeth flip214 brucem karswell` araujo ahungry oleo lduros pozori ASau hlavaty cmpitg tensorpudding hugod1 kanru Fullma tkd acieroid naryl stepnem fe[nl]ix Blkt mrSpec jewel gjord xan_ frkout pillton asedeno loke cjwelborn prxq EvW guiambros sandbender1512 cods cyphase wchun peterhil
23:41:36 -!- names: matija rvchangue jayne Neptu karbak Posterdati ThePhoeron ahungry_ ggherdov bege andares Mandus billstclair Quadresce jdoles fikusz _schulte_ zymurgy _death cmbntr_ zxq9 clog ecraven ski mksan InvalidCo vhost- benny easye _5kg_ __main__ ezakimak rootzlevel aftersha_ Bike axion davorb adsisco cdidd gensym saarin AeroNotix qiemem mksan_ ZombieChicken MoALTz_ spacebat H4ns optikalmouse cpc26 hugod mal_ 8OWAAAAAE SHODAN mathrick antoszka ruzu Vivitron foom
23:41:36 -!- names: eee-blt victor_lowther__ kirin` mindCrime_ schoppenhauer ivan4th` tali713 jackdaniel vyv_ yano dlowe quackv4 _tca keen_ sword lemoinem jiacobucci ered abunchofdollarsi RiskyBlit brown` gf3 xenophon marsam fridim_ Khisanth v0|d eigenlicht q3k scharan_ rtoym_ p_l|backup whartung hypno_ oconnore Zag clop2 |3b| Zhivago xristos sbryant ConstantineXVI sshirokov m00n gko DrForr cpt_nemo wilfredh newcup heddwch yrk Kruppe nydel impulse gluegadget
23:41:36 -!- names: BaconOverflow___ Tordek ozzloy Xach dim sauerkrause mtd__ GuilOooo qsun pchrist pjb luis cross copec tomaw z0d clop eMBee setheus aerique fmu quasisane pok jsnell akersof Yamazaki-kun epsylon [SLB] eagleflo guaqua arbscht daimrod ft sjl ec felideon emma BlastHardcheese housel K1rk_ oGMo Subfusc sytse Petit_Dejeuner__ specbot anunnaki_ felipe iwilcox AntiSpamMeta igorw djinni` j0ni PuercoPop theBlackDragon dRbiG froggey justinmcp_ zz_karupanerura cibs
23:41:36 -!- names: nightshade427 mood Tristam ramus phadthai johs Natch Praise kbtr smull aoh __class__ musicalchair enn jasom JPeterson yeltzooo zmyrgel1 Kabaka_ vert2 freiksenet wormphlegm rvncerr sigjuice redline6561 j_king tessier zbigniew yroeht2 dfox ineiros joast andyo sfa nuba nicdev Nshag eak TristamWrk tychoish faheem finnrobi Ober Phreak Fade Anarch minion ivan ivan\ @p_l bjorkintosh hzp lupine Adeon bobbysmith007 jonh otwieracz Borbus ircbrowse joshe ``Erik
23:41:36 -!- names: Codynyx_ cmatei ferada tvaalen Foxboron joga abbe Munksgaard fnordbert
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23:43:08 <Denommus> damn, the only two projects that mention ANY kind of Lisp are SBCL and Clojure
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23:46:23 <pillton> Is there a list of lisp projects that were submitted but rejected?
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23:54:33 <Xach> I don't have the impression that many tried for it, but I could be wrong.
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23:56:33 <Xach> Fare: I get an unmatched close paren error in fare-memoization.asd
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23:59:22 <pillton> Is GSOC good for commencing projects or improving existing projects?
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00:00:07 <Krystof> yes
00:00:32 <Krystof> (depends on what you mean by "commencing", I suppose)
00:00:47 <pillton> Sorry, starting projects.
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00:02:18 <Krystof> ok, depends on what you mean by "projects"
00:02:44 <Krystof> if you mean "totally new software", then GSoC is awful because its whole premise is to get students to engage with existing software development projects
00:02:52 *drewc* answers "maybe!?" 
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00:03:13 <Krystof> if you mean "new development lines", then GSoC is great, because it actively encourages students to think about what they would like to develop for a block of three months
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00:03:48 <pillton> I was meaning "totally new software".
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00:42:20 <pillton> Krystof: Thanks. I guess I'll either start it or find some other avenue.
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00:59:50 <cheryllium> join #programming
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00:59:54 <cheryllium> dammit
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01:00:13 <jaimef> cheryllium:  :P
01:00:18 <cheryllium> anyway, hello al
01:00:19 <cheryllium> *all
01:00:21 <cheryllium> omg
01:00:25 <whartung> they didn't want you either?
01:00:27 <jaimef> still not in #programming
01:00:34 <cheryllium> haha
01:00:40 Joreji_ [~thomas@166-208.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp
01:00:47 <cheryllium> why is it ##programming, what's with the double-octothorpe
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01:01:03 <jaimef> ok mr AT&T
01:01:10 <jaimef> double is for the REAL channel
01:01:15 <jaimef> Rob Levin's idea
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01:30:29 <loke_> Yay for octothorpe
01:30:33 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@mawercer.de] has joined #lisp
01:30:51 <loke_> Nice alternative to the word "hash" :-)
01:31:03 <loke_> (people who call it "pound" are dead to me)
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01:33:06 <cheryllium> There are so many different things to call that symbol
01:33:16 <cheryllium> I found a really humorous article on "how to pronounce C#" once about that
01:33:26 <loke_> C-hash
01:33:51 <loke_> Sharp would be c
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01:35:45 <jaimef> d flat
01:36:07 <jaimef> "tic tac toe" sign
01:36:52 <p_l> let's go full retard^Wunicode:  vs 
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01:37:21 <jaimef> What we in Quebec call "delayed"
01:38:12 <cheryllium> C-splat
01:38:19 <cheryllium> wait no.. * is splat!
01:39:01 <jaimef> "delayed" and "shower" bag are bad words in english...
01:39:59 <loke_> Oh, I didn't realise Ohm sign and Omega were different
01:40:35 <loke_> But is the Ohm sign deprecated (like ångström sign)
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02:10:27 <FareWell> Xach: fixed. Thanks a lot!
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02:14:50 <Petit_Dejeuner__> p_l, are those different?
02:15:47 <p_l|backup> how different?
02:15:50 <p_l|backup> (and who?)
02:16:55 <p_l> ahh,  vs ? Yes, those two are different :)
02:17:17 <p_l> the first is Omega, the other is Ohm ;)
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02:25:26 <Petit_Dejeuner__> Oh wow, I give up.
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02:28:40 <loke_> They render differenctly in my irc
02:28:45 <loke_> (whatever font I'm using)
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02:33:01 <Petit_Dejeuner__> I'm looking at them, but I'm not entirely sure. One kind of looks narrower?
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02:36:28 *pillton* wonders if he is being secretly filmed whilst he attempts to determine if the symbols omega and ohm are different.
02:36:53 <loke_> The Ohm one is stubbyer
02:37:02 <loke_> the omega is narrower and higher
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02:37:18 <loke_> but only in my monospace font. In the "normal" fornt (helvetica?) they are the same
02:37:36 <pillton> I need a right angle to check.
02:40:02 <pillton> Regardless, I like p_l's sense of humour.
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04:42:51 <theos> oh those are chatroom names
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04:49:02 <pillton> Why are special operators fixed?
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04:49:23 <beach> Good morning everyone!
04:49:44 <Bike> pillton: because fexprs are weird, especially as far as standardization committees were concerned.
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04:55:39 <beach> pillton: Would you have preferred that you could define your own?
04:56:32 <pillton> beach: I am not sure. Someone asked my the other day whether you could change IF such that the THEN and ELSE forms were the other way around.
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04:56:52 <pillton> beach: I did it, but the solution was not what I was thinking.
04:56:58 <Bike> that's a simple macro.
04:57:14 <Bike> novel special operators are usually a bit more strange
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04:58:16 <pillton> Bike: I see. It was not my intention to create a new special operator, I just wanted to change the name of an existing special operator.
04:58:34 <beach> pillton: That's what macros are for.
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04:58:46 <beach> pillton: It is a bad idea though.
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04:59:19 <pillton> beach: I agree. It was more a question of possibility than reason.
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04:59:50 <attila_lendvai> hehh, *readtable* affects printing (if I set readtable-case to :preserve then it doesn't escape). that's surprising...
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05:00:45 <pillton> I found it interesting that the new definition of IF still required the old definition, which led me to my question.
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05:01:27 <beach> pillton: There must be a way for the compiler to know what to do with basic operations.
05:02:12 <beach> pillton: So either you have a fixed set of special operators, or the programmer must somehow inform the compiler what to do with new constructs.
05:02:13 <pillton> beach: But IF is a name, it is not the operation it performs.
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05:02:33 <beach> pillton: The name is how the compiler knows what it is.
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05:02:48 <Bike> admittedly you could have a more first class special operator.
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05:04:07 <pillton> It is interesting that you have SYMBOL-FUNCTION, MACRO-FUNCTION but no SPECIAL-FUNCTION.
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05:05:58 <nightfly> pillton: What would special-function be?
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05:06:10 <beach> pillton: So you agree with Bike here.  The SPECIAL-FUNCTION would be some kind of first-class special operator.  Sure, that would be possible.  That `function' would be little more than a name though.
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05:10:02 <pillton> I am not sure what it would be. Enough to be able to do http://paste.lisp.org/+3142
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05:11:40 <Bike> you can use fdefinition on special operators, incidentally. result is undefined but "not an error"
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05:11:53 <Bike> on sbcl i think you get more or less a placeholder, like beach said
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05:13:09 <pillton> On SBCL you get #<FUNCTION IF>. Clearly you can't funcall it.
05:13:56 <beach> pillton: Special operators can't be functions.  That's why they aren't.
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05:15:14 <pillton> beach: I know. Anyway, back to more important things.
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06:55:25 <FareWell> p_l: how do you detect spambots so fast? database of female first names -> parsing name + number ?
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10:03:10 <flip214> does somebody know what parts of ECL try to derive result types? http://sourceforge.net/p/ecls/bugs/286/
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10:06:16 <flip214> hmmm, perhaps src/cmp/cmpcall.lsp is a starting point
10:07:47 <fe[nl]ix> p_l: you're getting really effective now
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10:15:02 <flip214> does somebody have a ignore line for irssi for these bans/kicks?
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10:23:00 <Bike> "/ignore -channels #lisp pr0n BANS" maybe? dunno about the kicks, if you want to see other kicks
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10:39:19 <Okasu> p_l: By banning spammers you've become one of them - spamming with ban messages about pr0n. :)
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11:06:59 <p_l> Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programminglanguage <http://paste.lisp.org/new>.|Contact op if you can't speak| New: cl-launch 4.0.0, drakma 1.3.8,  cl-ppcre 2.0.7, hunchentoot  1.2.26, flexi-streams 1.0.10
11:07:03 <p_l> argh
11:07:13 -!- p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programminglanguage <http://paste.lisp.org/new>.|Contact op if you can't speak| New: cl-launch 4.0.0, drakma 1.3.8,  cl-ppcre 2.0.7, hunchentoot  1.2.26, flexi-streams 1.0.10
11:07:44 <p_l> effect of dealing with updates straight after waking up :)
11:08:08 <H4ns> p_l: that is silly.  please keep this channel open.
11:08:34 <p_l> H4ns: ... um, did I close it in any way?
11:08:38 <H4ns> p_l: more than half of the traffic on this channel is about this stupid spammer.  stop it, please.
11:08:48 <p_l> H4ns: I removed the message
11:08:59 <H4ns> p_l: "if you can't speak" seems like there would be the chance that someone could not speak.
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11:14:51 <flip214> In function CAR, the value of the first argument is "psil.knaws/svc-11213102-emils/erawtfos/psilkciuq/stsid/ ..." which is not of the expected type LIST
11:14:55 <flip214> ;)
11:15:06 <flip214> comes from REVERSEing a string instead of a list
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11:24:28 <splittist> a few minutes with emacs and flexi-streams and the security-through-obscurity file-bundle format falls to a screen of lisp code!
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11:31:34 <BlobJoe> Hi
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11:45:47 <flip214> who is trying to help me with that ECL bug right now?
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11:51:44 <theos> i dont know enough to help :/
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17:00:38 -!- names: sirdancealo3 attila_lendvai p_nathan Okasu shridhar nydel White_Flame arenz bjz Krystof cantstanya STilda zajn mrSpec jewel pjb splittist slyrus angavrilov_ jayne scharan_ q3k bocaneri joneshf-laptop hypno_ oconnore Zag clop2 |3b| Zhivago xristos sbryant ConstantineXVI sshirokov m00n gko DrForr cpt_nemo wilfredh newcup heddwch yrk Kruppe copec fnordbert Munksgaard abbe joga Foxboron tvaalen ferada cmatei Codynyx_ ``Erik joshe ircbrowse Borbus otwieracz
17:00:38 -!- names: jonh bobbysmith007 Adeon lupine hzp @p_l ivan\ ivan minion Anarch Fade Phreak Ober finnrobi faheem tychoish TristamWrk eak Nshag nicdev nuba sfa andyo joast ineiros dfox yroeht2 zbigniew tessier j_king redline6561 sigjuice rvncerr wormphlegm freiksenet vert2 Kabaka_ zmyrgel1 yeltzooo JPeterson jasom enn musicalchair __class__ aoh smull kbtr Praise Natch johs phadthai ramus Tristam mood nightshade427 cibs zz_karupanerura justinmcp_ froggey dRbiG
17:00:38 -!- names: theBlackDragon PuercoPop j0ni djinni` igorw AntiSpamMeta iwilcox felipe anunnaki_ specbot Petit_Dejeuner__ sytse Subfusc oGMo K1rk_ housel BlastHardcheese emma felideon ec sjl ft daimrod arbscht guaqua eagleflo epsylon Yamazaki-kun akersof jsnell pok quasisane fmu aerique setheus eMBee clop z0d tomaw Khisanth fridim_ marsam xenophon gf3 abunchofdollarsi ered jiacobucci lemoinem keen_ _tca quackv4 yano vyv_ jackdaniel tali713 ivan4th` schoppenhauer
17:00:38 -!- names: mindCrime_ victor_lowther__ eee-blt foom antoszka mathrick SHODAN 8OWAAAAAE mal_ hugod cpc26 optikalmouse H4ns spacebat ZombieChicken mksan_ qiemem AeroNotix saarin cdidd axion aftersha_ rootzlevel ezakimak __main__ _5kg_ easye benny vhost- InvalidCo mksan clog cmbntr_ _death zymurgy _schulte_ fikusz Mandus bege ggherdov ahungry_ ThePhoeron Posterdati Neptu peterhil cyphase cods sandbender1512 cjwelborn asedeno xan_ Blkt fe[nl]ix naryl acieroid tkd Fullma
17:00:38 -!- names: kanru cmpitg pozori ahungry brucem nightfly zarul scoofy gabot rk[lies]_ izirku mc40 theos ktx bhyde killmaster ianmcorvidae kbc_ loke_ milosn BaconOverflow___ ruzu dim davorb Mathieu andares v0|d` adsisco luis zxq9 p_l|backup gluegadget whartung farhaven_ flip214 jaimef rtoym pchrist karbak jdoles mtd aeth gigetoo dlowe wgreenhouse hugodunc` Quadresce` sauerkrause devon` Wackadoodle MrWoohoo prxq nand1 snits GuilOooo dmiles_afk Xach peccu2 Tordek_ ozzloy
17:00:38 -!- names: w|t Oddity matija nitro_idiot dan64 gensym _8680_ rvchangue seangrove Vivitron
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17:22:00 <beach> Good evening everyone!
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17:23:59 winter[htr] [~slice_att@162.219.176.202] has joined #lisp
17:24:04 <winter[htr]> ~hello
17:24:16 <beach> Hello winter[htr]
17:24:59 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@182.6.15.109.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:25:02 <winter[htr]> Anyone fiddles with GAs much?
17:25:23 <winter[htr]> i.e. genetic algorithms
17:25:46 <splittist> Hey beach!
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17:27:03 <beach> splittist: Hey!  What are you working on these days?
17:27:37 chuck54 [~chuck54@cpc7-nrwh10-2-0-cust156.4-4.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp
17:28:42 <splittist> I was fiddling with some card game ai. Well, some of it. And I was thinking the other day how well second-climacs' buffer protocol fitted with my 1/10th done triviil.
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17:29:25 <beach> Interesting!  So you actually read about that one?
17:29:35 <beach> [the buffer protocol]
17:30:31 <splittist> yes. well, I looked at the code, mainly.
17:30:39 <beach> I see.
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17:30:55 <beach> It is much better than that of first Climacs.
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17:31:31 <beach> ... especially the update part of it.
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17:37:29 -!- names: zajn jewel pjb splittist angavrilov_ jayne scharan_ q3k bocaneri joneshf-laptop hypno_ oconnore Zag clop2 |3b| Zhivago xristos sbryant ConstantineXVI sshirokov m00n gko DrForr cpt_nemo wilfredh newcup heddwch yrk Kruppe copec fnordbert Munksgaard abbe joga Foxboron tvaalen ferada cmatei Codynyx_ ``Erik joshe ircbrowse Borbus otwieracz jonh bobbysmith007 Adeon lupine hzp @p_l ivan\ ivan minion Anarch Fade Phreak Ober finnrobi faheem tychoish TristamWrk eak
17:37:29 -!- names: Nshag nicdev nuba sfa andyo joast ineiros dfox yroeht2 zbigniew tessier j_king redline6561 sigjuice rvncerr wormphlegm freiksenet vert2 Kabaka_ zmyrgel1 yeltzooo JPeterson jasom enn musicalchair __class__ aoh smull kbtr Praise Natch johs phadthai ramus Tristam mood nightshade427 cibs zz_karupanerura justinmcp_ froggey dRbiG theBlackDragon PuercoPop j0ni djinni` igorw iwilcox felipe anunnaki_ specbot Petit_Dejeuner__ sytse Subfusc oGMo K1rk_ housel
17:37:29 -!- names: BlastHardcheese emma felideon ec sjl ft daimrod arbscht guaqua eagleflo epsylon Yamazaki-kun akersof jsnell pok quasisane fmu aerique setheus eMBee clop z0d tomaw Khisanth fridim_ marsam xenophon gf3 abunchofdollarsi ered jiacobucci lemoinem keen_ _tca quackv4 yano vyv_ jackdaniel tali713 ivan4th` schoppenhauer mindCrime_ victor_lowther__ eee-blt foom antoszka mathrick SHODAN 8OWAAAAAE mal_ hugod cpc26 optikalmouse H4ns spacebat ZombieChicken mksan_
17:37:29 -!- names: qiemem AeroNotix saarin cdidd axion aftersha_ rootzlevel ezakimak __main__ _5kg_ easye benny vhost- InvalidCo mksan clog cmbntr_ _death zymurgy _schulte_ fikusz Mandus bege ggherdov ahungry_ ThePhoeron Posterdati Neptu peterhil cyphase cods sandbender1512 cjwelborn asedeno xan_ Blkt fe[nl]ix naryl acieroid Fullma kanru cmpitg pozori brucem nightfly zarul scoofy gabot rk[lies]_ izirku mc40 theos ktx bhyde killmaster ianmcorvidae kbc_ loke_ milosn
17:37:29 -!- names: BaconOverflow___ ruzu dim davorb Mathieu andares v0|d` adsisco luis zxq9 p_l|backup gluegadget whartung farhaven_ flip214 jaimef rtoym pchrist karbak jdoles mtd aeth gigetoo dlowe wgreenhouse hugodunc` Quadresce` sauerkrause devon` Wackadoodle MrWoohoo prxq nand1 GuilOooo dmiles_afk Xach peccu2 Tordek_ ozzloy w|t Oddity matija nitro_idiot dan64 gensym _8680_ rvchangue seangrove Vivitron
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21:20:15 -!- names: fmu quasisane pok jsnell akersof Yamazaki-kun epsylon eagleflo guaqua arbscht daimrod ft sjl ec felideon emma BlastHardcheese housel K1rk_ oGMo Subfusc sytse Petit_Dejeuner__ specbot anunnaki_ felipe iwilcox igorw djinni` j0ni PuercoPop theBlackDragon dRbiG froggey justinmcp_ zz_karupanerura cibs nightshade427 mood Tristam ramus phadthai johs Natch Praise kbtr smull aoh __class__ musicalchair enn jasom JPeterson yeltzooo zmyrgel1 Kabaka_ vert2 freiksenet
21:20:15 -!- names: wormphlegm rvncerr sigjuice redline6561 j_king tessier zbigniew yroeht2 dfox ineiros joast andyo sfa nuba nicdev Nshag eak TristamWrk tychoish faheem finnrobi Ober Phreak Fade Anarch minion ivan ivan\ @p_l hzp lupine Adeon jonh otwieracz Borbus ircbrowse joshe ``Erik Codynyx_ cmatei ferada tvaalen Foxboron joga abbe Munksgaard fnordbert copec Kruppe yrk heddwch newcup wilfredh cpt_nemo DrForr gko m00n sshirokov ConstantineXVI sbryant xristos Zhivago |3b|
21:20:15 -!- names: clop2 Zag oconnore hypno_ Khisanth fridim_ marsam xenophon gf3 abunchofdollarsi ered jiacobucci lemoinem quackv4 yano vyv_ jackdaniel tali713 ivan4th` schoppenhauer mindCrime_ eee-blt foom antoszka mathrick SHODAN mal_ hugod cpc26 optikalmouse H4ns spacebat ZombieChicken mksan_ qiemem AeroNotix saarin cdidd axion aftersha_ rootzlevel ezakimak __main__ _5kg_ easye benny vhost- InvalidCo mksan clog cmbntr_ _death zymurgy _schulte_ fikusz Mandus bege
21:20:15 -!- names: ggherdov ahungry_ Neptu peterhil cyphase cods cjwelborn asedeno xan_ Blkt fe[nl]ix naryl acieroid Fullma kanru cmpitg brucem nightfly zarul scoofy gabot rk[lies] izirku mc40 theos ktx bhyde killmaster ianmcorvidae kbc_ loke_ milosn BaconOverflow___ ruzu dim davorb Mathieu andares v0|d` adsisco luis zxq9 p_l|backup gluegadget whartung farhaven_ flip214 jaimef rtoym pchrist karbak jdoles mtd aeth gigetoo dlowe hugodunc` Quadresce` sauerkrause devon`
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22:19:15 <francogrex> Hi all; I am looking for a few examples practical where sbcl ffi (alien) is used. Does anyone have a reference? In the manual there is just one example
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22:19:59 <Bike> can't just use cffi?
22:20:24 <foom> francogrex: there's examples in the sbcl codebase
22:20:25 <francogrex> Bike: yes sure but wanted to be familiar with ffi as well
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22:21:34 <LiamH> My strategy would be to write the CFFI and macroexpand until I see what I want.
22:21:36 <foom> Also, the manual has more than one example.
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22:21:48 <foom> LiamH: except that CFFI doesn't really use sb-alien.
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22:22:00 <foom> I mean, it uses some bits of it, and reimplements other bits
22:22:02 <LiamH> foom: Oh, I see.
22:25:14 <francogrex> LiamH: yes but macroexpansion on cffi is quite annoying also because of the compilation etc...
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22:28:41 <Poenikatu> Could someone look at http://paste.lisp.org/+3149 and tell me why there is a second backquote expression in the macro?
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22:30:52 <Bike> it's jsut making a list of bindings.
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22:31:13 <Bike> it's basically the hsame as (loop for n in names collect (list n '(gensym)))
22:31:14 <Poenikatu> Bike: Yes, I understand that, but why have another backquote?
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22:31:33 <Bike> because it's slightly shorter to type and saves a bit of cons structure, i guess
22:32:23 <Poenikatu> Bike: Doesn't the first backquote affect the second?
22:32:30 <Bike> no, why would it
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22:34:10 <Poenikatu> Bike: I don't know. I'm new to macros. I can't see the point of having extra backquotes. The macro once-only, defined in Peter Seibel's Practical Common Lisp has a double-backquote expression.
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22:34:32 <Bike> the inner backquote is within a comma, see? so it's not really "double" at all
22:35:05 <Poenikatu> Bike: Sorry, I meant this expression: ``(,,g ,,n)))
22:35:39 <Bike> oh. i was just reading your paste. that's a bit more complicated.
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22:35:53 <Bike> that's because once-only expands into a form which is itself used in a macroexpander
22:36:29 <Poenikatu> Bike: But surely with-gensyms is used in a macroexpander?
22:36:39 <Bike> not in the result form
22:36:48 <Bike> sorry, i'm being unclear
22:36:54 <Poenikatu> Bike: Yes
22:37:28 <Bike> with ``(,,g ,,n) it might be easier to look at it w/o backquote syntax. (list 'list g n), i think
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22:38:27 <Poenikatu> Bike: Look at +314A (same place)
22:39:09 <White_Flame> when you nest backquotes, it gets pretty hairy
22:39:28 <Bike> it does.
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22:39:46 <prxq> many people just stay away from nested backquotes and solve things in a different way
22:39:53 <White_Flame> but everything does nest logically
22:39:58 <Poenikatu> White_Flame: Yes, that's what I don't understand, and Peter Seibel in PCL doesn't explain it either
22:40:02 <White_Flame> ie, backquote enters, comma exits
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22:40:36 <prxq> ulambda is also logical.
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22:40:49 <drmeister> This is probably obvious to everyone but it just bit me in the butt:   If I have a function that uses (SETF (foo-x a) 1) and follow it with a (DEFSTRUCT foo x) that's the wrong order right?   I need to have (DEFSTRUCT foo x) come before any SETF on its accessors or the SETF macro won't generate the right code - correct?
22:40:53 <Bike> Poenikatu: yeah, this is the usual once-only. the thing is that when you do (once-only (a b) ...) that has to expand into a form which itself expands into a form. it's double, so to speak. with with-gensyms it only expands into a form that's used in the macroexpander itself
22:41:16 <Bike> drmeister: yeah, it'll just funcall #'(setf foo-x) and that might not be how structure accessors work for you
22:41:22 <Poenikatu> prxq: ulambda? Not in CLHS
22:41:35 <jaimef> mocl ftw
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22:42:01 <drmeister> Bike: Do compilers usually warn people about this?
22:42:52 <White_Flame> Poenikatu: This is used inside macro bodies.  So, the first quoted let is inside your macro expansion, and the second quoted let is inside the final expansion
22:42:58 <Bike> drmeister: undefined function warning on (setf foo-x), yeah
22:43:19 <Bike> drmeister: the setf expander itself isn't going to warn.
22:43:26 <White_Flame> meaning your macro ends up as (defmacro ...(...) (let (...once-vars...)   `(let (...) ...your original macro body)))
22:43:40 <drmeister> Bike: Thanks - my compiler doesn't do that yet - good to know.
22:44:05 <Bike> drmeister: it doesn't do undefined function warnings?
22:44:19 <prxq> Poenikatu: sorry. Unlambda is a functional programming language that is very horrible (and, by pure coincidence, uses lots of backticks). I was just making the point that being logical doesn't mean it is sane. I tend to avoid nested backquote stuff because it is just hard to read and debug.
22:44:44 <White_Flame> yeah, nested backquotes are usually write-only, but you can build them up methodically
22:45:16 <whartung> like painting in to a corner
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22:45:31 <drmeister> Bike: Nope - My compiler figures you'll get around to defining the function eventually and so it doesn't sweat the little things.
22:45:46 <Bike> drmeister: well, that's what compilation units are for
22:46:01 <White_Flame> Poenikatu: To be more correct, that once-only helps build this for you:  (defmacro ...(...) (let (...gensyms for once-only vars)  `(let (values for once-only vars) .... body)))
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22:47:50 <drmeister> Bike: Anyway, this is just compiler version 0.1 - I'll write a better one once I get garbage collection sorted out.
22:47:52 <Poenikatu> White_Flame: Your remark about the 1st quoted let is inside... I found useful. I suppose that with the macro with-gensyms, the second backquoted expression could be written without the backquote. Is that correct?
22:48:00 <Bike> drmeister: mmhm :)
22:48:17 <White_Flame> Poenikatu: I believe so
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22:48:48 <White_Flame> it seems to reimplement with-gensyms inside once-only
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22:49:17 <White_Flame> however, due to which variable list is visible, it might be necessary to do it that way
22:49:36 <Poenikatu> Sorry folks, got slung out by miskeying something
22:49:49 <White_Flame> [repost] it seems to reimplement with-gensyms inside once-only
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22:50:43 <Poenikatu> White_Flame: I don't think so. I cannot see the name with-gensyms in once-only
22:51:11 <drmeister> Bike: I'm making a lot of progress on the garbage-collector static-analyzer/code-generator - I really, really, really hope I can get GC running in the next week (spring break/wahoo and I'm not doing any wet-tshirt contests this year).
22:51:17 <Bike> that's why it's a reimplementation, Poenikatu
22:51:22 <drmeister> Bike: I also purchased a Github account.
22:51:39 <Poenikatu> Bike: Not with your last remark. Reimplementation?
22:51:59 <Bike> it reimplements with-gensyms because it doesn't just use with-gensyms
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22:52:26 <White_Flame> it implements the functionality of with-gensyms instead of calling with-gensyms
22:52:27 <Poenikatu> Bike: Thanks, I understand a teensy weensy bit more :-)
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22:59:33 <drmeister> This bloody thing has required so much work.
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23:35:02 <jasom> I concur that working GC is more important than undefined function warnings :)
23:35:38 <jasom> Also more important that wet-tshirt contests
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23:36:50 <whartung> I dunno about that last one. You can work on GC any time, wet-tshirt contests, however...
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23:41:14 <Poenikatu> What is a wet-tshirt contest?
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23:41:57 <jasom> Poenikatu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_T-shirt_contest
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23:46:58 <Xach> Bad joke.
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