00:00:53 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:54 ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has joined #lisp 00:04:47 nilsi_ [~nilsi@49.73.144.45] has joined #lisp 00:05:44 -!- Denommus [~yaaic@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:06:12 http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Special-Forms.html 00:06:27 that might be one of the first mentions of let as a special form ^ 00:06:37 or at least close to it 00:06:56 -!- jacksonn [~cgiirc@fantasy.ircgate.it] has quit [Quit: IRCGate CGI:IRC User (EOF)] 00:07:09 just a more readable way of conveying the bindings achievable with lambda 00:09:23 Ah, nice. There's a big gap between the first Maclisp manual (1974) and the revised one (1983) listed in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maclisp#External_links 00:09:26 And a lot changed. 00:09:45 i'm reasonably sure early scheme had let 00:10:03 you'd look at the orbit paper (or rabbit? whatever...) 00:11:01 lman [~user@unaffiliated/lman] has joined #lisp 00:11:23 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.108.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:13:04 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@udp047553uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:13:54 -!- pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 00:14:13 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:14:27 When I skimmed an interlisp manual I saw let in it too. There was a lot of initializing a variable with (let (var) ...) and then accumulating into it using the simple form of loop. That helped me appreciate CL's loop. 00:15:39 resttime [~resttime@c-50-158-65-143.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:00 Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:13 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.93.106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:18:04 cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.108.146] has joined #lisp 00:19:56 Ah, interesting. In some very old Lisp code I've seen in historical Lisp documents, the pattern is to create null variables with PROG and then use SETQ to initialize them. (As I mentioned before in a slightly more ambiguous way.) 00:20:11 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@bas1-kanata16-1279595928.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:20:20 -!- nightshade427 [nightshade@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fedb:a448] has quit [Quit: bye] 00:20:51 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:21:01 yes, later prog was defined in terms of let and tagbody like now 00:22:46 nightshade427 [nightshade@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fedb:a448] has joined #lisp 00:23:03 -!- nightshade427 [nightshade@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fedb:a448] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23:12 -!- cneira [~cneira@pc-33-7-104-200.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:24:14 nightshade427 [nightshade@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fedb:a448] has joined #lisp 00:26:00 guaqua [gua@hilla.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 00:26:43 -!- akenisuto [~akenisuto@HSI-KBW-37-209-74-126.hsi15.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Bye] 00:27:00 akenisuto [~akenisuto@HSI-KBW-37-209-74-126.hsi15.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 00:27:11 So then around the mid-1970s Lisp changed into a form more recognizable today as Lisp? 00:28:20 slyrus [~chatzilla@udp047553uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:26 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.65.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:28:40 -!- akenisuto [~akenisuto@HSI-KBW-37-209-74-126.hsi15.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:28:49 ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has joined #lisp 00:28:51 happy new year folks 00:29:55 Ah, this is how the behavior of GO changed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp#Lexical 00:30:31 -!- shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-rwcxslcpxigcmcko] has quit [Quit: shridhar] 00:32:22 -!- slarti [~anonymous@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Quit: slarti] 00:33:32 slarti [~anonymous@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:48 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.65.200] has joined #lisp 00:36:43 Happy New Year everyone 00:36:46 -!- rockymadden [~rockymadd@unaffiliated/rockymadden] has quit [] 00:38:16 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:38:20 Denommus [~yaaic@201-8-182-117.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 00:38:21 -!- Denommus [~yaaic@201-8-182-117.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Changing host] 00:38:21 Denommus [~yaaic@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 00:38:47 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@49.73.144.45] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:41:20 -!- Denommus [~yaaic@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Client Quit] 00:45:18 vaporatorius [~vaporator@52.Red-88-5-226.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:42 akbiggs [~akbiggs@bas1-kanata16-1279595928.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:48:32 akersof [~akersof@99.0.19.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:22 -!- akersof is now known as msg 00:49:32 -!- msg is now known as akersof 00:49:36 -!- akersof is now known as msg 00:50:14 -!- msg is now known as akersof 00:50:51 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-88-50.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:50:52 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5000:6420:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:52:33 Bike [~Glossina@71-222-52-53.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:34 -!- slarti [~anonymous@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Quit: slarti] 00:56:46 slarti [~anonymous@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:27 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:59:20 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 00:59:59 ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has joined #lisp 01:01:21 wbooze [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-185-140.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:01:22 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:01:48 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:04 -!- oleo is now known as Guest7658 01:02:14 Happy New Year! 01:02:15 -!- Guest7658 [~oleo@xdsl-84-44-211-57.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:02:23 I declare 2014... the year of Lisp's Revenge! 01:02:45 kristof: +1 01:03:20 -!- wbooze is now known as oleo 01:03:40 In news related to the previous mention of GO, it turns out that TAGBODY is practically perfect for transforming lisp code into SSA-like instructions and making a state machine to do something like... I dunno... goroutines :) 01:04:12 Reading through Clojure's core.async makes me realize how much of standard Common Lisp had to be reinvented! 01:04:53 Although if you asked anyone interested in higher level programming, would they really care about special operators like TAGBODY and BLOCK? 01:05:40 kristof: since CL, everybody is trying to reinvent CL by putting fancy names to the same old rutines 01:10:29 (princ "Happy New Year!") 01:12:59 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:13:53 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:14:01 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:18:26 ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has joined #lisp 01:25:40 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZZZZzzZ] 01:27:37 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:03 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:29:35 -!- slarti [~anonymous@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:29:50 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.197.240] has joined #lisp 01:31:24 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-222-52-53.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:33:25 Bike [~Glossina@174-25-37-184.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:14 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:40:37 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-37-184.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:41:44 Bike [~Glossina@174-25-37-184.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:51 MoALTz__ [~no@host81-153-176-220.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 01:46:41 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host81-153-176-220.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:50:27 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 01:52:08 ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has joined #lisp 01:57:15 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@187.153.65.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:57:38 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:00:17 -!- vaporatorius [~vaporator@52.Red-88-5-226.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:08:20 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:d13b:b74:ac71:4870] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:08:40 przl [~przlrkt@p57923C05.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:08:59 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:09 -!- lman [~user@unaffiliated/lman] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:11:04 chenjf [~communi@183.44.24.8] has joined #lisp 02:12:24 drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:32 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.197.240] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15:32 -!- chenjf [~communi@183.44.24.8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:18:18 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23:04 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-33-22.toya.net.pl] has quit [Quit: good night] 02:24:18 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:25:37 Is there a way to uncompress a gz file in CL? 02:25:59 ahungry: you could always just call tar 02:27:25 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-95-114-27.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 02:27:56 well, I need it for windows, I guess I could try http://common-lisp.net/project/gzip-stream/ (heres to hoping it is current) 02:28:30 oh, windows... :( 02:29:15 Yea, I try to use gnu/linux 100% of the time for myself, but I need to make a package manager for windows 02:29:39 and am thinking i'll save myself some bandwidth and download gz's of the files and uncomprses in the exe itself 02:29:55 hmmmmmmmmmm............................. 02:30:12 chocolate is a package manager for Windows, I believe. But making a package manager in general for windows seems... strange... 02:30:37 ah, well, to be more specific, a patcher+package manager for a private everquest emulator/server 02:30:51 Oh! That makes more sense. 02:30:52 (the http://project1999.org server) 02:31:13 I'm sure clicki has some decompression libraries available. 02:31:29 Right now they dont have one and the project owner mentioned he'd be interested in me making one, currently the users just download zip files manually and that is hard for some users heh 02:32:44 lol 02:32:53 Why does it have to be Common Lisp? 02:35:16 well, it doesn't have to, but I have a fondness for it and the only big drawback so far seems to be the large exe size/file - it starts up fast 02:35:51 Are you dumping an image with SBCL? 02:36:21 I've been thinking lately that maybe it's time SBCL should have optional tree-shaking... ECL has that, I believe. 02:36:39 Yea, (save-lisp-and-die "patcher.exe" :executable t), the sbcl binary for windows doesn't have compression enabled 02:36:53 and I dont really want to spend the time on my windows environment compiling a custom one 02:36:59 ahungry: is known to have a relatively large binarys. You could maybe try a different implementation 02:37:01 when i can just comprses the exe 02:37:12 binaries* 02:37:24 well, its about 45MB uncompressed after making the exe on windows, but after 7zipping it, its only 10MB 02:37:27 so not too bad 02:37:28 for downloads 02:38:26 I find it unreasonable sometimes that other people find that unreasonable. The real problem is that SBCL is not as widespread as Java :) 02:38:59 And I'm sure a Java binary would be even larger if one had to include every bit of the Java standard libraries in their executable 02:39:53 That said, SBCL would dump smaller images if it did some tree-shaking before it did any dumping. I wish I knew something about compilers so that I could help out with that! 02:40:18 <|3b|> kristof: sbcl uses its compiler at runtime, so wouldn't shake as much as you might expect 02:40:38 |3b|: Optionally remove compiler capabilities at runtime? 02:40:47 <|3b|> ahungry: whichever of chipz or salza is the decompression lib does gzip i think 02:41:00 <|3b|> kristof: only if you remove CLOS too 02:41:03 I see gzip-stream package uses salza2 02:41:09 <|3b|> and anything else that uses the compiler internally 02:41:33 |3b|: So how does Lispworks do it, then? 02:41:44 -!- deafy [~deafy@179.215.106.241] has left #lisp 02:41:45 <|3b|> kristof: different CLOS implementation 02:41:47 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p57923C05.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:42:11 <|3b|> also different compiler, different libraries, etc 02:42:12 ahungry: there is a deflate implementation in pure lisp. I don't know if it can parse .gz files though 02:42:18 |3b|: Would you know offhand the advantages and disadvantages of their CLOS implemention? 02:42:43 <|3b|> nope 02:42:48 Hrmmm. 02:43:21 I'm sure they're not going to open source very soon, so that is disheartening. 02:44:29 Hey, why is compressing and decompressing in different libraries? 02:44:34 out of curiosity, why does sbcl use zlib instead of salza or deflate or something like that for its compressed memory images? 02:44:48 kristof: because if you only need one, why bloat your image? 02:44:55 <|3b|> jasom: presumably it would be hard to run CL code before loading the CL heap 02:44:57 defdeafy [~defdeafy@179.215.106.241] has joined #lisp 02:45:18 |3b|: isn't sbcl implemented in CL? 02:45:19 *|3b|* suspects it is more just that someone only implemented whichever part they needed 02:45:28 <|3b|> jasom: not the part that loads the image 02:45:38 <|3b|> since all the CL code is in the image being loaded 02:46:14 what language is the part that loads the image written in? 02:46:22 <|3b|> mostly C 02:46:32 -!- defdeafy [~defdeafy@179.215.106.241] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:46:33 ah 02:46:53 defdeafy [~defdeafy@179.215.106.241] has joined #lisp 02:47:07 since sbcl compiles to native code, I'm surprised that the loader is written in C 02:47:22 but I suppose thats the easiest language to write a unix loader in 02:47:36 Why is that surprising? 02:47:45 Lots of languages are bootstrapped with C 02:47:52 <|3b|> GC and some other parts are written in C also 02:47:58 Haskell still has a lot of code written in C-- 02:48:03 GHC, I mean 02:48:08 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:49:40 <|3b|> and SBCL compiles to native code, but not standalone native code... it still needs the GC, assumes various things are in specific places, etc 02:50:12 This is terribly off topic but does anyone know exactly what the difference is between C-- and LLVM IR? 02:50:30 <|3b|> so you would have to write a separate compiler to compile the parts that need to run before all that is set up (or that runs while it isn't available, like GC code can't assume there is a GC), at which point there is less benefit to not using C 02:50:50 <|3b|> especially since you probably want some code written in C to interface with OS/libc/etc anyway 02:52:32 zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:49 kristof: LLVM and C-- are targeted at essentially the exact same problem space 02:54:00 Ok, so there is no difference. :/ 02:54:03 |3b|: code that doesn't cons doesn't need a GC... I've seen lisps where the GC was written in very carefully written lisp... 02:54:07 problem-space wise I mean 02:55:47 kristof: llvm is a bit biased towards being used as a library compared to c-- which is more biased towards emitting source-code, but basically yes 02:57:13 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:58:03 jasom: Seems like a lot of wasted energy when both are so similar. 02:59:01 offtopic, I'll stop :) 02:59:09 LLVM afaik does a lot more 02:59:20 <|3b|> jasom: "carefully written" sounds unportable and fragile :p 02:59:21 Moar is better! 02:59:55 C-- might be a machine to target, while LLVM has among the goals things like static analysis tools, developement of various code mangling things etc. 03:00:18 the IR might be similar, but the whole tool not so much :) 03:01:02 <|3b|> avoiding consing when heap addresses are bignums (on some platforms) in particular sounds like a hassle 03:01:46 *|3b|* isn't saying it is impossible, just not sure it is worth the effort 03:01:49 |3b|: now that you mention it heap addresses were fixnums on those lisps 03:02:11 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:32 though on 64-bit that's true as well 03:03:24 and typically the number of valid heap addresses fits in a fixnum (e.g. heap address shifted right by the # of alignment bits) 03:03:24 <|3b|> also probably adds constraints to how your GC works, even if you aren't allocating... things like how it marks dirty pages, safepoints, etc 03:04:12 it's definitely a hassle 03:04:31 particularly since C is so ubiquitous 03:05:07 back when you had to shell out serious money for a C compiler, and C compilers were really different across platforms it might have been worth it 03:06:36 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.195.149] has joined #lisp 03:12:43 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:20:41 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-28.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:09 eg0 [~akcst@68-189-15-131.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:28:50 -!- eg0 [~akcst@68-189-15-131.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:29:43 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:30:28 -!- haxx [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:31:40 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:32:22 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:15 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-37-184.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:35:21 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:45 Bike [~Glossina@75-175-75-157.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:06 haxx [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 03:38:49 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 03:46:04 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 03:48:05 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-28.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:48:36 tesuji_ [~tesuji@x2f69b09.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 03:49:27 -!- tesuji [~tesuji@unaffiliated/tesuji] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:53:51 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 03:54:15 munge`` [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:54:34 -!- munge` [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 03:59:23 eg0 [~akcst@68-189-15-131.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:00:49 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:02:45 -!- haxx [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:03:09 haxx [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 04:04:02 -!- eg0 [~akcst@68-189-15-131.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:11:56 ikki [~ikki@187.208.159.170] has joined #lisp 04:12:33 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:47 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:12:47 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 04:14:27 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Quit: END TRANSMISSION] 04:16:48 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.208.159.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:20:03 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-180-172.w109-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:20:49 Happy New Year everyone! 04:21:35 you too beach :) 04:22:27 karswell [~user@13.194.189.80.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:33 lacostesell [~lacostese@178.175.16.156] has joined #lisp 04:22:36 hi 04:22:39 -!- lacostesell [~lacostese@178.175.16.156] has left #lisp 04:22:54 Happy New Year :) 04:23:31 Any Lisp-related resolutions for the new year? 04:26:38 beach: seems CL standard is VERY stable for many years ? 04:27:01 ...I don't know the context of that statement, but it *is* a standard. 04:27:08 zRecursive: Right, let's not resolve to change it in 2014. 04:27:56 I like Daniel Weinreb's idea (rest in peace); Common Lisp 1.1, strictly backwards compatible but including some of those newer modern features that people inevitably need. 04:28:12 zRecursive: But there are tons of other things we can do. 04:28:26 yeah 04:28:48 eg0 [~akcst@68-189-15-131.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:29:01 but i hope both Socket and Thread can enter the standard :) 04:29:14 zRecursive: usockets and bordeaux threads are fine 04:29:50 The current trend is pretty nice. Implementations figure out what feature to implement on their own, and a portable library is constructed to abstract away implementation details. 04:30:04 With a very simple #+ reader-macro 04:30:16 zRecursive: Interesting statement, often echoed by others, but I don't understand why. Most languages don't even *have* a standard, and most of the ones that do and we use also don't have sockets and threads in them. 04:30:39 zRecursive: So why do people want Lisp to have sockets and threads in the standard? 04:31:41 beach: it doesn't matter that they don't have a formal standard 04:32:16 fe[nl]ix: I know it doesn't matter. But why does it then matter to people whether Lisp has sockets and threads in its standard? 04:32:20 most other popular languages have a de facto standard, usually the original implementation 04:33:21 fe[nl]ix: I wasn't looking for an answer from you? :) I wanted to hear what zRecursive thought about it. 04:33:24 fe[nl]ix: You and beach are in agreement. 04:34:18 beach: I think they're concerned about the future of Lisp and they see the lack of thread/socket standardization troubling. But they don't realize that there are defacto standards and the ad-hoc nature of these things doesn't actually hurt Common Lisp at all. 04:35:08 kristof: That's why I wanted to hear what zRecursive had to say about it. But you guys ruined it. :) 04:35:39 *kristof* ruins everything 04:35:47 -!- eg0 [~akcst@68-189-15-131.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:36:18 Anyway, that's a boring discussion. 04:36:44 beach: Did you see those two links I sent you some days ago? 04:36:45 -!- haxx [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:37:19 kristof: I did see that, but now I can't remember how much I read about it. I might have forgotten. Hold on, and I'll check again... 04:38:02 I did some more reading and they weren't particularly interesting or good ideas, but at the very least, they fall into the category of alternative-OS-design research, and by a significant Lisper too 04:38:19 kristof: Oh, yes, I remember now. I scanned it briefly, but meant to read it more carefully later. 04:38:56 beach: You needn't waste your time, now that I think about it :) I'm sure there are more important things to read 04:39:36 kristof: Still, I like to know what people are thinking of. 04:41:45 kristof: It looks VERY preliminary. 04:42:01 kristof: Sort of like a way of getting funding for future work. 04:42:39 It's even worse than that: it's probably *permanently* preliminary. 04:42:59 Judging from the dates, yes. 04:43:14 It's pretty anti-UNIX, too 04:43:25 Now that much I agree with :) 04:43:47 Well 04:45:59 There are really only a few canonically UNIX things I find distasteful, most of which you mentioned in some of your SASOS documents. The text-as-interface/explicit-serialization-of-everything is the biggest problem I have, but there are lots of other facets of UNIX philosophy that are quite palatable, and dare-I-say Lispy! 04:46:54 All the palatable aspects of Unix come from Multics. 04:47:13 I don't know any of the specific differences between the two besides some historical trivia. 04:47:52 Yeah, most people don't. And that's a big mistake in my opinion. 04:47:55 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:49:06 i have a feeling that many of my simple problems with unixland, such as shell escaping, wuld disappear if things were more homoiconic and datastructurey in general rather than textual 04:49:25 But anyway, for a community entrenched in the C programming language, it might be surprising that all of these things are considered part of the UNIX philosophy: portability over efficiency, robustness, prototyping as soon as possible, making programs filters (I consider that another word for function if you remove the necessity to make everything text), and modularity 04:51:15 I am personally incapable of judging the value of a new or improved design by just studying a specification. It is only when I start implementing it that I have a chance of seeing all the issues. 04:51:25 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:25 That is true :) 04:51:46 beach: You teach at a university, don't you? Think you could get some funding for research in this area? :) 04:52:10 kristof: No, that domain of research is dead, and has been for decades. 04:52:18 Reinvigorate it 04:52:23 haxx [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 04:52:31 beach: What are people interested in these days? 04:52:36 kristof: I am, but there is not going to be any funding. 04:52:45 to revisit the boring socket/thread whatever topic. Baking that into the language specification is a mistake IMO, it will most likely ensure the languages obseletion at some future date 04:53:19 Guthur: I perfectly agree with you. One must be very careful about what goes into the standard. 04:53:43 kristof: Stuff like automatic face recognition from video surveillance. 04:54:01 beach: So people are interested in creating police states? Lame. :/ 04:54:28 kristof: Well, it's more like they are interested in funding. And that's where the money is. 04:54:34 I have read on many occasions that the Common Lisp spec writers (wisely) sought to only include the features and concepts that would persist for many, many years 04:54:42 Aaaah, yes. 04:55:01 Can't you have optional modules in specs? Never seems to catch on. 04:55:46 Oh, hm, that reminds me of a Zach Beane post... 04:56:38 Bike: Libraries? is that not optional enough? minor troll, hehe 04:56:58 woe, i am trolled. 04:59:41 OK, with respect to resolutions, I'll give you mine: Whenever I have a 15-minute period of time with nothing particular to do, I'll write a docstring, a type proclamation, a MOP webpage, a description of some CL functionality, or something similar. 05:01:13 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:53 *beach* thinks that maybe #lisp participants are not in the habit of making resolutions for the new year. 05:02:06 Bike: http://xach.livejournal.com/319717.html 05:02:47 Bike: maybe that looks something like what you were referring to 05:02:49 oh, that's something. 05:03:07 Anyone have any leads to entry-level lisp jobs for an amateur new grad lisper anywhere? 05:03:37 On hindsight, that's a spammy-sounding question 05:03:59 pranavrc: On my first job, I used lisp without telling anyone. It worked fine and I was considered very productive. 05:04:25 beach: what did you build with it? 05:04:47 -!- milosn_ [~milosn@94.12.79.143] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:05:18 Adlai: Several things. This was a while back. In particular, a very flexible database system that mirrored a real-time database used in production. 05:06:04 milosn [~milosn@94.12.79.143] has joined #lisp 05:06:28 Oh, can anyone point me in the direction of the {in,}famous IF* macro? Or give me a description of the improvements it made? 05:06:39 beach, nice 05:07:01 I suppose I could be satisfied that way as well 05:07:13 that definitely works with the view that few users are interested in the language a piece of software is written, rather they are interested in whether it works or not 05:07:16 pranavrc: Yes, you can get away with a lot of that kind of stuff if you just have the courage to try. 05:07:33 Guthur: Exactly! 05:08:22 Some people might be considered if you through them a 40MB executable generated from SBCL, though. 05:08:25 so with that outlook if you can identify a process that can be improved with the right application of software then build it in CL and present to your colleagues, boss whoever 05:08:29 *concerned 05:08:51 kristof: not if it is for internal use, they probably wont even notice 05:09:17 True. :) 05:09:18 *beach* finds himself agreeing with Guthur a lot today. 05:09:57 beach: well that makes me feel confident I'm not talking utter bull, hehe 05:10:00 woah, I also meant *threw, not 'through'. Too many typos on New Year's Eve :( 05:10:46 Guthur: Or we both are. :) 05:11:34 beach: just come back ! the reason is i donot want #+ and #- to support many impls. 05:13:00 zRecursive: You hid those away in libraries such as Closer, Bordeaux threads, etc. 05:13:09 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.65.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:14:13 we are very careful to import library into project as maintenanc problems 05:15:40 IIRC, some libraries seems not maintained for many decades, i.e. Elephant, Hunchentoot-cgi, etc. 05:16:03 hunchentoot is not maintained for decades? 05:16:07 Elephant is not maintained for decades? 05:16:16 hunchentoot-cgi 05:16:19 ...have they even been around for decades? hunchentoot, 9 years old 05:16:21 -!- haxx [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:16:52 The newest release of Elephant is 2008 ? 05:17:02 Does it not work anymore? 05:17:07 zRecursive: In many cases, libraries are not maintained because they don't have to be, and they don't have to be because the standard is not a moving target. 05:18:13 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:18:19 beach: i have tested hunchentoot-cgi and found problem. After email its author, i even cannot get any feedback :) 05:18:21 zRecursive: Anyway, the bitrot you're afraid of does not happen in higher level libraries like Hunchentoot or Elephant. It only happens in libraries like usocket and Bordeaux threads, where implementation details actually matter. But lots of people depend on usocket; I would be very suprised if it became unmaintained and nobody noticed. 05:18:37 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:18:48 zRecursive: And even if it did, do you remember how usocket was started? Trivial-sockets became unmaintained and usockets was declared defacto sockets abstraction layer. 05:19:06 I'm assuming hunchentoot-cgi is something different than the hunchentoot everyone else is referring to 05:19:14 brandon` [~cgiirc@mistero.ircgate.it] has joined #lisp 05:19:17 that's kind of what i meant, stuff like usocket oughta be a standard module. 05:19:48 Bike: Who gains what by making usocket a standard module? It exists, and people use it, and that's all that matters. 05:19:52 Bike: i support you 05:20:25 kristof: you just mentioned trivial-sockets disappearing... 05:20:41 guardianx [guardian@124-171-193-189.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:22:06 Bike: It didn't disappear, there was more of a torch-handing that happened. 05:22:28 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.195.149] has left #lisp 05:23:24 or with the ffis, uffi dropped off and code had to be updated for the new interface(s). 05:23:55 Bike: If trivial-sockets had not disappeared, people would be checking its project page for updates and API changes. That's best case scenario with a project like that. But on the other hand, if trivial-sockets does announce a handing off of the torch, then people are checking the project page anyway and they see that and now they're just checking someone else's project page. 05:28:10 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:30:11 alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:34:18 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:37:13 leo2007 [~leo@124.64.107.131] has joined #lisp 05:37:35 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 05:44:49 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:45:12 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.102.153] has joined #lisp 05:49:11 guardianx_ [guardian@124-170-71-218.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:50:09 -!- guardianx [guardian@124-171-193-189.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:52:47 -!- antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:55:07 -!- pierpa [~user@host198-93-dynamic.55-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:55:35 patbarron [~pat@lectroid.com] has joined #lisp 05:59:00 guardianx [guardian@124-171-201-197.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:00:38 -!- guardianx_ [guardian@124-170-71-218.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:01:34 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 06:03:49 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:06:08 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:12:45 -!- effy [~x@123.116.60.65] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:17:50 -!- brandon` [~cgiirc@mistero.ircgate.it] has left #lisp 06:29:48 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:35:26 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:36:06 effy [~x@114.252.51.219] has joined #lisp 06:36:17 -!- effy [~x@114.252.51.219] has quit [Client Quit] 06:42:19 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 06:42:54 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 06:44:50 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:51:52 pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has joined #lisp 07:00:00 protist [~protist@97.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 07:02:17 As part of my resolution for the new year, I added a page describing EQL-SPECIALIZER-OBJECT to http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/clos-mop.html 07:03:47 Again, I would appreciate bug fixes, improvements, and more material. The GIT repository is here: https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLOS-MOP-HTML 07:05:18 http://youtu.be/_ahvzDzKdB0 <- most of you have probably seen this but might as well link it again 07:05:39 nisstyre: What is it? 07:06:03 steele's talk on operator overloading and stuff. 07:06:45 beach: are you going to do anything new with the mop? make-method-lambda considered harmful and all that? 07:07:19 "new mop"? 07:07:34 No, I don't think so. 07:07:46 I mean, I will bend it whenever I feel it is necessary. 07:08:21 It is pretty vague as it is, so I think there is room for some tweeking. 07:08:22 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 07:08:33 *tweaking 07:08:35 ok. 07:09:04 Bike: And yes, the method invocation part is a good candidate. 07:09:35 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Client Quit] 07:10:22 One thing I want to do at some point is to figure out conflicts between the CLHS and the MOP. 07:10:55 ... and see whether they can be reconciled. 07:11:48 The problem I have whenever I look at MOP stuff is that the book is very very hard to read because of lack of good references combined with incompleteness. 07:12:25 One example: it refers to "the CLOS specification" without saying where it can be found. 07:13:04 yeah, it's not much of a spec. 07:13:24 The web pages I am writing fix that problem by introducing hyperlinks to the CLHS and to CLtL2. 07:15:05 Bike: I think basic thinking is mostly fine. The problems are mostly editorial. 07:21:35 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 07:21:59 <|3b|> beach: in that eql-specializer-object page, should that 'class' entry in args&values be there? 07:22:33 |3b|: Could be a copy-paste problem. Hold on... 07:23:05 |3b|: You are right. Fixing it now... 07:25:18 |3b|: Fixed! Thanks! That's exactly the kind if help I need. 07:28:27 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 07:29:04 haxx [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 07:30:44 -!- capisce [srodal@rs5.risingnet.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:30:44 capisce [srodal@oftn/member/capisce] has joined #lisp 07:31:47 jewel [~jewel@197.111.223.250] has joined #lisp 07:36:07 hey 07:36:09 i luv u lisp 07:36:11 :> 07:36:16 (<3 me you) 07:43:23 -!- patbarron [~pat@lectroid.com] has quit [Quit: Exiting HexChat] 07:44:55 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@bas1-kanata16-1279595928.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:45:36 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 07:46:35 nilsi_ [~nilsi@58.209.45.93] has joined #lisp 07:48:28 -!- defdeafy [~defdeafy@179.215.106.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:49:20 defdeafy [~defdeafy@179.215.106.241] has joined #lisp 07:50:00 n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has joined #lisp 07:53:27 Bike: HAH! You are giving me new ideas here. There is definitely a need for an implementation (and therefore a specification) of the CLOS MOP that does not require the compiler. This would be useful for delivering executables and for bootstrapping purposes. I have already figured out how to handle CALL-NEXT-METHOD and such without using CALL-METHOD. 07:54:26 Some functionality may have to be sacrificed (perhaps DEFINE-METHOD-COMBINATION) but maybe not much. 08:01:34 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 08:02:03 -!- fp0_ [~davebelan@S0106b8a386573a5e.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:07:13 -!- haxx [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:09:50 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@58.209.45.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:10:27 nilsi_ [~nilsi@58.209.45.93] has joined #lisp 08:12:45 fp0 [~davebelan@S0106b8a386573a5e.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:27 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@58.209.45.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:17:09 -!- guardianx [guardian@124-171-201-197.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:25:39 -!- hzp [~user@188-67-136-27.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:32:57 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 08:33:19 -!- marsam [~marsam@146.185.180.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:35:58 marsam [~marsam@146.185.180.111] has joined #lisp 08:50:46 -!- fp0 [~davebelan@S0106b8a386573a5e.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: fp0] 08:57:53 -!- ben- is now known as bentgf 09:01:33 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.102.153] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:01:44 -!- harish__ [~harish@175.156.89.73] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:02:04 Corvidium [~cosman246@187.153.65.20] has joined #lisp 09:05:13 frxx [~bbbbdf@93-138-220-54.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 09:08:03 -!- frx [~michael@93-139-123-48.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:09:16 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@187.153.65.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:09:56 -!- leo2007 [~leo@124.64.107.131] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 09:10:59 minion: memo for zrecursive try emailing the hunchentoot-cgi author again. it should still work. 09:11:00 what is ``it''? 09:11:02 effy [~x@114.252.51.219] has joined #lisp 09:11:08 minion: memo for zrecursive: try emailing the hunchentoot-cgi author again. it should still work. 09:11:08 Remembered. I'll tell zrecursive when he/she/it next speaks. 09:11:45 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-95-114-27.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:17:23 effy_ [~x@114.252.51.219] has joined #lisp 09:18:05 -!- effy [~x@114.252.51.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:18:37 sword [~sword@c-24-21-123-136.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:13 harish_ [~harish@175.156.89.73] has joined #lisp 09:21:18 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:c81c:1f38:a99c:f3c9] has joined #lisp 09:25:37 -!- nug700 [~nug700@71-223-107-191.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:26:13 -!- resttime [~resttime@c-50-158-65-143.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: resttime] 09:43:19 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:44:13 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:51 rockymadden [~rockymadd@unaffiliated/rockymadden] has joined #lisp 09:51:41 -!- rockymadden [~rockymadd@unaffiliated/rockymadden] has quit [Client Quit] 09:51:43 treyhan [~cervanto@silenceisdefeat.com] has joined #lisp 09:51:46 happy new year!!! 09:53:20 treyhan: Thanks, you too! 09:53:31 treyhan: Are you new here? 09:54:42 Happy new year ^^ 09:55:26 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5025:5b20:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 09:56:04 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:57:11 Is 2014 going to be the year of the Lisp Machine desktop? :-P 09:59:00 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:01:31 -!- zimerilim [~rett@64.124.28.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:02:36 akenisuto [~akenisuto@HSI-KBW-37-209-74-126.hsi15.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 10:02:39 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:02:50 -!- desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:03:34 vaporatorius [~vaporator@52.Red-88-5-226.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:44 aeth: it will if we make it 10:06:56 I have this dirty dream 10:07:16 take this baby http://cubox-i.com/ 10:07:20 and make it a lisp machine 10:09:55 "Please enable JavaScript to view this website." over a translucent gray screen behind which I can see almost all of the data on the website that clearly doesn't need JS. 10:10:20 yea, they got bit of a design overkill there 10:10:38 MikeSeth: How much does one cost? 10:10:46 beach: $40 to $120 10:10:57 I'm getting mine next week 10:11:04 frusen [~user@fsf/member/frusen] has joined #lisp 10:11:14 the more expensive version is quad core 10:12:41 lispcoin ? 10:13:09 Wow, phones *almost* changed the nature of low-end desktop-style hardware forever. 10:13:20 But they're all ARM... 10:15:15 aeth: So? 10:15:40 MikeSeth: It might be worth the price just to play with the ARM processor as a Lisp compiler backend. 10:18:19 beach: Well, ARM reduces the amount of software available, even when you use Linux on it. 10:18:33 beach: that's one of the reasons I got one, I want to see if I can get sbcl going on it 10:18:44 MikeSeth: Good plan! 10:18:59 and, it's so frigging TINY 10:19:11 e.g. sbcl doesn't seem to be ARM. 10:19:34 the language is not an architecture I think 10:19:35 aeth: some work has been done, but it seems to be abandoned 10:20:15 Probably because ARM is (was?) a pain to port to. 10:20:27 nilsi_ [~nilsi@58.209.45.93] has joined #lisp 10:22:24 I think just that no-one has needed it with sufficient urgency 10:22:55 I don't think it's going to be any more pain than any other SBCL port, but we've run out of grad students 10:23:02 so it probably needs funding 10:23:08 (or more grad students) 10:24:28 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:25:01 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:25:20 well, arm is becoming a very popular and powerful target lately 10:25:22 bassclide [~bassclide@118.129.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 10:25:41 arm boxes are cheap, ubiquitous and increasinly powerful 10:26:05 you all saw that pretty hack where a guy managed to run Linux on his hard drive's controller, yeah? 10:26:57 I did, yes 10:27:17 that was an ARM controller 10:28:17 yes, I know 10:28:56 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:29:31 Yes, ARM's a classic low end disruptive technology. 10:29:55 We might not see them common on desktops, though, because of Windows. Microsoft loves backwards compatability and ARM would break all binary-only .EXE files. 10:33:15 Krystof: Roughly, how much funding would it take? 10:36:06 beach: are you seriously considering a money pool? I don't mind chipping in a bit for a port 10:36:53 -!- tesuji_ [~tesuji@x2f69b09.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:37:01 MikeSeth: I am not personally considering organizing such a thing. But I am always interested in orders of magnitude to see what is doable. 10:38:08 The money pool should be in Bitcoin imo. Then if Bitcoin continues to deflate it sort of multiplies the original contributions. 10:38:21 It seems like a safe bet that Bitcoin will return to at least $1k. 10:38:35 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:40:27 shridhar [~Shridhar@116.75.32.13] has joined #lisp 10:41:55 -!- akenisuto [~akenisuto@HSI-KBW-37-209-74-126.hsi15.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Bye] 10:45:24 -!- vaporatorius [~vaporator@52.Red-88-5-226.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 10:46:37 -!- shridhar [~Shridhar@116.75.32.13] has quit [Quit: shridhar] 10:49:05 -!- deadghost [~deadghost@71-84-218-145.dhcp.ccmn.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:49:41 -!- frusen [~user@fsf/member/frusen] has left #lisp 10:50:43 lman [~user@unaffiliated/lman] has joined #lisp 10:50:53 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3D02.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:51:09 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 11:00:02 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:28 Davidbrcz_ [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:40 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:04:32 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:05:20 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 11:06:13 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 11:08:03 spupy [~spupy@client-36-174.speedy-net.bg] has joined #lisp 11:11:25 ehu` [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 11:12:01 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 11:12:17 is it possible, with a single loop (not 2 nested), to loop over 2 vars, however not in parallel, but one full loop for one var, increment the other var, another full loop with the first var, etc? 11:12:44 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.29.195] has joined #lisp 11:12:44 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.29.195] has quit [Changing host] 11:12:44 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 11:12:54 so basically, iterate over 2d array/nested lists using indeces? 11:13:04 spupy: Not possible. 11:13:43 beach: thanks, I thought so. Didn't find anything, but was hoping for some secret lisp-fu 11:14:17 spupy: You can use row-major-aref in this particular case, though. 11:14:30 clhs row-major-aref 11:14:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_row_ma.htm 11:14:45 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:16:53 that looks interesting, but I'm afraid it will only complicate my code 11:17:10 It depends on what you want to do in the loop. 11:17:22 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@58.209.45.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:17:55 spupy: (loop with a = #2A((1 2 3) (4 5 6)) for i from 0 below (array-total-size a) sum (row-major-aref a i)) => 21 11:18:01 nilsi_ [~nilsi@58.209.45.93] has joined #lisp 11:18:47 spupy: Why do you want to avoid nested loops? 11:18:53 beach: that looks interesting, I will meditate on it for a bit 11:19:00 beach: code golf 11:19:20 So why is nesting a problem? 11:20:27 well it isn't, but the loop macro (?) seemed very powerful to me, so I thought maybe there's some way to avoid nested looping with some fancy code in a single loop 11:20:37 I see. 11:23:54 beach: I guess it depends how you cost it. If it were me, I might quote three months' work, which might work out at 15k or so? (But I have other obligations, so I can't necessarily simply say "right, I can work 3 months full-time starting from day X") 11:24:21 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@58.209.45.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:24:33 order of magnitude, anyway. People are probably better-off hiring someone who's an actual contractor 11:24:36 Krystof: That's a good enough order of magnitude for me. 11:24:58 nilsi_ [~nilsi@5.254.150.124] has joined #lisp 11:27:27 nilsi__ [~nilsi@58.209.45.93] has joined #lisp 11:28:20 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:30:19 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@5.254.150.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:32:28 -!- akersof [~akersof@99.0.19.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:42:12 spupy: it is always possible to do silly things: (let ((ma 3) (mb 4)) (loop with a = 0 with b = 0 while (< a ma) do (print (list a b)) (incf b) (when (>= b mb) (setf b 0) (incf a)))) 11:42:30 : 11:42:32 :O 11:42:51 [6502] [5e24f523@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.245.35] has joined #lisp 11:43:14 You can always derecursivate a function, and you can always reduce all the loops to a single loop, since all computation is reducible to Turing Machines. 11:44:23 -!- ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:47:55 spupy: Instead of reducing everything to a single loop, (because loop is "powerful"), you could give power to everything! If you need to loop over two dimensions, then use a 2d looping control structure: (2dloop for aij across matrix do ) (2dloop for (i j) over indices of mat-a do (incf (aref mat-b i j) (aref mat-a i j))) 11:50:01 ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:52:05 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.229.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:52:44 <[6502]> I'm coming to the conclusion that I'll be forced to flatten out my jslisp compiler to a much less efficient vm or cps approach... :-( android seems to expose to js an incredibly tiny call stack 11:53:02 KaiQ [~localhost@p5B2B3890.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:53:17 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.197.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 11:54:00 -!- jewel [~jewel@197.111.223.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 11:55:45 -!- [6502] [5e24f523@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.245.35] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:59:43 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.206.36] has joined #lisp 12:05:50 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[~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:28 (and T F foo), will foo be evaluated? 14:48:41 Depends on what F is bound to. 14:49:10 oops, I meant NIL, not F 14:49:27 then no. 14:49:43 -!- davazp [~user@170.Red-83-63-202.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:47 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:50:03 Try: (swank::macroexpand-all '(and t nil foo)) 14:50:47 I tried it with a simple foo that prints something 14:51:03 works too. 14:52:01 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:53:32 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 15:00:35 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:01:17 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:02:46 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:09:18 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A681B6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 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[~hiroaki@p54A6A290.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:48:39 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-193-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:49:04 -!- QwertyDragon [~chatzilla@pool-71-174-212-30.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Iceape 2.7.12/20130119143918]] 17:49:07 jsambrook [18100c46@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.16.12.70] has joined #lisp 17:49:23 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:51:02 -!- STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:51:11 -!- ggole [~ggole@106-69-34-16.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 17:52:05 LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-130-210.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:36 I'm looking for some code to fold a text string to fit within a field of a given width. Haven't found a good library yet. 17:53:54 It would be nice if it did credible hyphenation, too. 17:54:10 Part of a project to generate restructured text. 17:56:07 clhs subseq 17:56:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm 17:57:52 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-193-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:12 <_death> jsambrook: here's an old snippet: http://paste.lisp.org/display/140748 .. but if serious you may want to look into http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_wrap#Knuth.27s_algorithm 18:02:23 killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-33-22.toya.net.pl] has joined #lisp 18:03:38 There's also com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.string:string-justify-left 18:03:59 QwertyDragon [~chatzilla@pool-71-174-212-30.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:58 proportional fonts make somewhat complicate things 18:06:39 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-33-22.toya.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:06:52 -!- hitecnologys_ is now known as hitecnologys 18:07:42 killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-33-22.toya.net.pl] has joined #lisp 18:08:22 and in general, it's interface-dependent 18:08:47 akbiggs [~akbiggs@bas1-kanata16-1279595928.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:09:18 stassats, agreed. 18:09:30 Anyway, monospaced fonts are way better. 18:10:18 _death and pjb, thanks for the code. 18:15:24 arpunk [~user@unaffiliated/arpunk] has joined #lisp 18:15:45 Why do we always overcomplicate things? Why don't people just start wrapping words wherever they want? 18:16:37 sometimes, you want to display the same text at different widths 18:17:21 fp0 [~davebelan@S0106b8a386573a5e.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:27 -!- vaporatorius is now known as Vaporatorius 18:19:58 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:21:38 I still don't get why such an easy task requires so much code. 18:22:08 have you tried it? 18:22:18 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 18:22:35 Well, I just use plain SUBSEQ. 18:25:27 -!- robiv [~rob@unaffiliated/robiv] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:27:00 robiv [~rob@c-24-22-47-95.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:01 -!- robiv [~rob@c-24-22-47-95.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:27:01 robiv [~rob@unaffiliated/robiv] has joined #lisp 18:28:26 WarWeasle [~brad@172.242.21.170] has joined #lisp 18:29:27 -!- WarWeasle [~brad@172.242.21.170] has left #lisp 18:31:08 It's not too hard to add non-monospaced font support to those algorithms. Instead of (cl:length line), just use (string-width *font* line). 18:31:11 patrickwonders_ [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 18:31:28 haxx [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 18:31:48 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:31:48 -!- patrickwonders_ is now known as patrickwonders 18:36:16 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@udp047553uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:40:06 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:42:15 slyrus [~chatzilla@udp047553uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:22 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-70-187.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:28 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:02 then there are things like ligatures 18:50:04 pyx [~pyx@unaffiliated/pyx] has joined #lisp 18:50:13 -!- pyx [~pyx@unaffiliated/pyx] has quit [Client Quit] 18:50:38 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3D02.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:52:17 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:53:27 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:55:19 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:55:31 -!- robiv [~rob@unaffiliated/robiv] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:55:44 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-180-172.w109-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 18:56:10 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:57:38 robiv [~rob@c-24-22-47-95.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:38 -!- robiv [~rob@c-24-22-47-95.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:57:38 robiv [~rob@unaffiliated/robiv] has joined #lisp 18:58:06 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3D02.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:58:25 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:59:55 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6A290.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:01:36 -!- munge`` [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:02:40 lman [~user@unaffiliated/lman] has joined #lisp 19:05:05 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:08:22 -!- spupy [~spupy@client-36-174.speedy-net.bg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:11:32 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p4FC97681.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:14:53 -!- protist [~protist@109.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 19:16:51 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:51 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@mawercer.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 19:18:29 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:19:35 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:20:57 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:23:20 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 19:24:26 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-144-253.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:36 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 19:25:54 howdy! I recently found that I had defined some errors with parent list () instead of (error) , When I use (error 'my-error-thats-a-signal) I go to the debugger (as expected by clhs). I guess my question is: is there anyway to determine that a condition was signaled with error instead of signal? In lisp-unit2 (that I am currently working on) I cleaned up the exception testing code which allowed me to spot my type mistakes, but it would be nice to treat 19:25:54 bobbysmith007, memo from dim: https://github.com/AccelerationNet/cl-csv/pull/12 19:27:18 nug700 [~nug700@71-223-107-191.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:37 bobbysmith007: then they're not errors, but conditions. 19:28:09 ERROR calls SIGNAL, IIRC. 19:28:35 Yes: "error effectively invokes signal on the denoted condition." 19:30:23 (handler-case (error (if (zerop (random 2)) 'condition 'error)) (error (err) (format t "error: ~A~%" err)) (condition (con) (format t "condition: ~A~%" con))) 19:33:12 pjb: thats what I figured from reading the documentation, unfortunately things signaled with error are not recoverable (without non-local transfer) which I have special cased for errors in the test library (so that tests can continue running after an expected error), but things signaled with error are not errors (but seem to be from a developer perspective 19:33:14 -!- abbe is now known as Mr_Smith 19:33:26 -!- Mr_Smith is now known as abbe 19:33:54 SHODAN [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has joined #lisp 19:33:55 Use CERROR if you want to be able to continue from the error handler (set with HANDLER-BIND). 19:38:45 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-33-22.toya.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:39:34 killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-33-22.toya.net.pl] has joined #lisp 19:40:08 -!- haxx [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:40:51 bobbysmith007: there's a distinction between "this condition is too serious to just continue on if no other restarts are available" (which is indicated by having SERIOUS-CONDITION in the superclasses), and "there are no ways to recover from this" (which is indicated by there being no non-abort restarts) 19:41:11 so, for example, unbound-variable is a serious-condition, but that doesn't stop there possibly being a USE-VALUE restart 19:41:18 crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 19:41:20 The difference is made in the handlers, not in the signalling code. 19:42:07 that's not quite true either. (error foo) means "if the condition foo is not handled, invoke the debugger", while (signal foo) means "if the condition foo is not handled, return NIL 19:42:53 (defun error (c) (signal c) (invoke-debugger c)) 19:43:04 Again, the difference is made in the handlers. 19:44:12 cneira [~cneira@pc-33-7-104-200.cm.vtr.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:37 thanks for the input Krystof and pjb 20:02:53 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 20:02:53 20:02:53 -!- names: ccl-logbot cpt_nemo rtoym_ aftershave ZombieChicken splittist__ hugoduncan sfa_ wyan davorb ft vnz cneira staykov_ Patzy_ jasom_ ski_ WeirdEnthusiast aerique _death Adlai` other_nick-37 Praise- zimerilim [1]JPeterson crixus killerboy SHODAN nug700 Beetny pnpuff sellout- lman przl robiv axion slyrus JuanDaugherty patrickwonders fp0 arpunk akbiggs QwertyDragon Codynyx LiamH jsambrook emma zulu_inuoe Vaporatorius hostsamurai Code_Man` zenoli Alfr bananagram 20:02:53 -!- names: frx matko hzp fantazo shridhar`afk 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#lisp 20:16:52 Running Genera makes one appreciate newer CL environments sometimes 20:17:18 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 20:17:39 never had SBCL's CLOS flip out on adding a new method, for example 20:18:38 -!- plathrop [~plathrop@pdpc/supporter/professional/plathrop] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:19:02 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-33-22.toya.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:20:31 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p5DDC42AE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 20:20:41 rwiker [~rwiker@80.202.200.28] has joined #lisp 20:21:15 QwertyDragon [~chatzilla@pool-71-174-212-30.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:39 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:21:39 p_l: I'm sure I can arrange that for you if you like 20:21:50 patrickwonders_ [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 20:22:03 plathrop [~plathrop@pdpc/supporter/professional/plathrop] has joined #lisp 20:23:39 haha 20:24:02 :) 20:24:02 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 20:24:04 hдhд 20:24:13 Krystof: well, at the very least, I don't expect to see CLOS crap out during *typical* operations 20:24:13 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3D02.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:25:04 -!- patrickwonders_ [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:25:04 I got Genera to the point where loading systems that interface with Zmacs fails because flavors got... kinda broken 20:25:09 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [] 20:25:40 killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-33-22.toya.net.pl] has joined #lisp 20:25:50 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@udp047553uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:27:26 slyrus [~chatzilla@udp047553uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:52 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:31:31 Happy New Year! 20:33:13 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:34:27 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:54 ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 20:36:59 bassclide [~bassclide@118.129.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 20:37:25 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3D02.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:38:38 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:39:02 -!- ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:39:40 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 20:43:23 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@80.202.200.28] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:43:51 n0n0 [~n0n0___@c-24-5-192-204.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:16 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.76.162] has joined #lisp 20:45:48 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.76.162] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:46:56 -!- djinni` [~djinni@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:47:03 -!- ivan [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:47:45 resttime [~resttime@c-50-158-65-143.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:55 -!- pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 20:49:45 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:51:16 lp 309076 20:51:30 https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/309076 20:52:01 p_l: if your sbcl is earlier than 1.1.12 or so, just follow the instructions in that bug report :) 20:54:51 -!- ejbs [~user@95.146.70.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:55:34 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55:36 ivan [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 20:55:41 djinni` [~djinni@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:09 Krystof: There was a discussion about this last night, but may I ask how SBCL's implementation of CLOS is fundamentally different from Lispworks' such that Lispwork allows for tree-shaking and SBCL does not? I believe it has something to do with the necessity of having a compiler at runtime to use SBCL's CLOS. 20:57:49 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5025:5b20:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:55 danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:09 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-225-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59:39 kristof: given the existence of simplistic proof-of-concept tree shaker for SBCL (that no longer works, anyway), I'd say CLOS was not that much of an issue 21:00:16 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:01:32 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 21:01:38 it basically has nothing at all to do with CLOS 21:01:43 p_l: Some archives from gmane suggest that it was fragile to begin with 21:01:55 it was fragile, but not in any way related to CLOS 21:01:57 Krystof: Ah, then |3b| was wrong in that regard 21:01:58 n.b. the error in flavors that I have is due to trying to rplacd a slot that had structure;stack allocation or something like that 21:02:44 it was fragile because it introspected into unstable internals, so every time an internal changed (e.g. a class or slot name) the shaker would go wrong 21:02:58 Oh, I see 21:03:14 also, I hate to say this, but this conversation is going to look very confusing later 21:03:24 haha 21:03:31 I think in my head I have overexaggerated the usefulness of tree-shaking, anyway 21:03:35 it's hard following a discussion.. oh, you already said that 21:03:42 no, he did! 21:03:55 Oh, ha 21:04:05 but yes, I think lack of certain APIs to "walk" the heap can be a big problem to tree shaking 21:04:16 Krystof: I thought I was lucky for snagging this nick, which is actually my name :P 21:04:21 drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:36 -!- yroeht [~yroeht@horgix.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:05:26 -!- tokenrove [~julian@209-197-170-115.cpe.distributel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:05:42 tokenrove [~julian@209-197-170-115.cpe.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:52 I have weechat configured to use colored nicks, anyway, so I never read names, I just follow conversations by hue. 21:06:17 Oh! There's an idea: color not only the nicks, but the messages, too... I wonder if someone has tried this 21:08:12 so about who's consuming what amount of memory, I have a bug report for pgloader where it tries to stuff more things in memory than available (heap exhaustion) 21:08:44 kristof: one thing i know, it's painful 21:08:48 is there a way to avoid that by knowing before hand? or, how to count how much memory is used from code and react upon that 21:09:02 allocation profiling 21:10:51 Oh! Something I read that I wanted to bring up in here 21:11:30 http://fare.livejournal.com/169346.html 21:11:52 This is a good idea, and even though it failed as a "movement", it's a good strategy to keep in mind 21:12:24 So I hereby declare this method to be titled DUSTing: Domain Unification STrategy :) 21:13:15 is it similar to nickname unification tactical strategy? 21:13:37 That said, even if DUSTing never happens where it likely should, I don't think it's an entirely terrible set of circumstances. The example there is the testing frameworks, and yet... if you look at every other programming language there is, you find similar results. This is not a Common Lisp problem, it's just... an open-source crowd-ware problem :P 21:14:08 stassats: it is! there is nothing better than spending a week or two with NUTS 21:14:44 [6502] [5e24f523@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.245.35] has joined #lisp 21:15:41 stassats: can you tell me more about allocation profiling? 21:16:00 your favorite profile should be able to do it 21:17:33 <[6502]> In a lisp compiler, do environments need to store references to the symbols at runtime? cannot they just store the values for the bindings and a ref to the parent environment? 21:18:10 lexical environments? they do not exist at runtime 21:18:16 stassats: I want to include memory management code within the normal code paths, not analyze the bug but avoid it... would you use a profiler as part of the normal code paths? 21:19:24 <|3b|> kristof: yeah, trust what Krystof says about sbcl more than what i say, i'm probably misremembering something i misunderstood in the first place :) 21:19:47 as for dynamic environments, there's no such thing in reality, it's just a model 21:20:05 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:08 *|3b|* was more talking about the usefulness of a tree shaker in sbcl rather than the possibility though 21:20:43 <[6502]> stassats:hmmm..., now I remember the problem. If you store lexicals in environments (even if they're just arrays of references to the values for the bindings) then capturing a single binding would make all of them to survive as long as the captured one. 21:21:36 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.206.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:22:14 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:23 |3b|: I agree about the use{ful,less}ness having sat on the idea for a bit. :) 21:22:39 Anyway, 2014, revenge of Lisp! Get Lisp on every desktop! 21:23:11 lexical shadowing is reduced to a problem of having multiple variables, (let ((x 10)) (let ((x 20)) (+ x y))) is just translated to (let ((x 10)) (let ((x.2 20)) (+ x.2 y))), and there you have it 21:23:13 Now, to convince o_z to port Weblocks to Clack ;_; 21:23:16 <[6502]> stassats: seems that detecting at compile time which bindings can possibly be captured is the only way, and each of them must be allocated separately. 21:25:21 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 21:26:08 Krystof: planet.lisp is still pulling from advocado, including non-lisp tagged things 21:26:15 I mailed Xach two days ago 21:26:17 well, that should be for Xach too 21:26:17 he's slacking 21:26:39 maybe he was at a party for new year or something 21:26:54 -!- woudshoo [~user@2001:981:e8d:1:baf6:b1ff:fe16:58e5] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:26:57 in the meantime planet.lisp readers get to read my deathless prose even if it's only tangentially about lisp 21:27:16 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:27:48 today's entry is more-than-tangentially about lisp, so it's OK 21:28:10 it took quite a while to figure that there was no new shiny changes with advogato itself and it was just forwarding from somewhere else 21:28:49 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@udp047553uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:29:36 slyrus [~chatzilla@udp047553uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:18 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-63-206.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:33:48 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:55 <[6502]> SKILL seems crazy 21:35:49 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@udp047553uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:36:22 <|3b|> Krystof: i've run into the "dispatch on car of cons" case a few times i think, mostly codewalkers/simple compilers, but also with trees of normal data... i think i usually just have a method on cons that calls another method with the CAR as a separate arg 21:36:50 boo 21:37:59 <|3b|> some probably could have been (or have been) replaced with pprint-dispatch since it can match types 21:38:28 hm. The indentation on planet.lisp is all wonky 21:38:50 it is on advogato too. But not at http://christophe.rhodes.io/notes/blog/posts/2014/seeking_real_life_uses_for_generalized_specializers/ 21:38:55 *sigh* nothing is ever simple 21:39:21 slyrus [~chatzilla@udp047553uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:37 joneshf-work [~joneshf@c-98-238-144-159.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:06 I think it's advogato's fault 21:40:21 Starting the new year off right! 21:40:24 :P 21:40:52 Krystof: With regard to your blog post, can you yourself think of anything useful to do with that construct? 21:40:57 yes 21:41:02 as I say at the bottom of my blog post 21:41:20 manornk [5f9b3026@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.155.48.38] has joined #lisp 21:41:32 ah, I must have missed that part 21:41:37 I have at least one, possibly two non-trivial examples of non-standard method dispatch 21:41:54 but I want to see if the rest of the world can come up with other examples 21:41:59 So, Hi guys, I need your help. There is a lot of books over there, but i need the best one. Any Suggestions? 21:42:16 War and Peace is a good one 21:42:19 Copenhagen, by Michael Frayn 21:42:50 manornk: Goedel, Escher, and Bach. I was once in a bad mood and thought I would read that to cheer myself up; it had the exact opposite effect but at least it was a cathartic experience. 21:43:18 kristof: I need books for learning lisp :D, but thanks for advice :D 21:43:22 -!- Mandus_ is now known as Mandus 21:43:25 Metamagicum is better - it even has Lisp in it! 21:44:44 I've done some C programming, i am pretty good in Web development, but i want to learn lisp now. 21:44:44 minion: please tell manornk about PCL 21:44:44 manornk: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:44:45 manornk: Practical Common Lisp is a good start (although every once in a while you'll have to check the gigamonkeys website for the revised code when things fail to compile (I only encountered this once in the id3v2 tag parsing chapter)) 21:45:31 manornk: After that, there are a few ways to go. In the world of macrology, Let Over Lambda is great and eye-opening, but the opinionation is often obnoxious. 21:45:56 manornk: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence (did I get the name right?) has lots of useful application of Common Lisp 21:45:59 i can't believe somebody recommended Let Over Lambda to someone just learning lisp 21:46:09 stassats: I said AFTER Practical Common Lisp :) 21:46:16 yeah, PAIP after PCL is probably a better path than LOL 21:46:50 manornk: Oh! And because CLOS is so cool, you want to pick up the definitive book on that, too, by what's-her-name . . . 21:46:50 Yeah, i get it. After what time should i be able to learn a bit about AI? 21:47:01 minion: Keene 21:47:01 Keene: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/Keene 21:47:15 I think I'd recommend Keene's "Object-Oriented Programming in COMMON LISP" simultaneously with PAIP 21:47:31 manornk: AI is not the topic of this channel 21:47:52 Krystof: I remember wanting predicate dispatch when writing a XML walker, invoking different behaviors for different tags (and sometimes even attributes) 21:47:52 manornk: You can learn about AI *now*. :P Peter Norvig's Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach is pretty much the definitive introduction. 21:47:55 you would have to use extracurricular materials to learn AI 21:47:55 it probably makes sense to read On Lisp before LOL, and PCL and PAIP before that for sure. the code accompanying AIMA is available in CL, isn't it? 21:48:32 ended up using a wrapper function around the methods there too 21:48:35 jsnell_: excellent, that's my "possibly two" 21:48:57 something like (defmethod process ((node (xpath "..."))) ...) 21:49:16 kristof: I would need some compiler for Linux, what would you suggest 21:50:20 deadghost [~deadghost@71-84-218-145.dhcp.ccmn.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:50:49 kristof: and I got that book, Modern approach :D 21:51:13 and it was commercially deployed code! translated websites written in one cms to a new and shiny one. and since the first CMS was extensible with arbitrary kinds of elements, there was even a potential need for modular extension of the converter as well 21:52:07 manornk: SBCL, CMUCL, Clozure, CLISP, and ECL are all fine choices. SBCL seems to be the most popular these days for native compilation 21:52:36 ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 21:52:39 i would question labeling cmucl as being a fine choice 21:52:44 kristof: Thank you, you were most helpful 21:52:57 And thanks to you guys too :D 21:53:06 i would be also quite skeptical of clisp and ecl 21:53:56 jsnell_: that sounds... awful 21:54:33 I've done worse ;-) 21:54:47 where are you looking to draw the line? 21:54:53 I would, too, I don't know why I just recommended those. 21:55:08 web server request routers are an interesting case that comes to mind 21:55:11 clisp is slow and ECL is now underdeveloped 21:55:22 clisp is underdeveloped even more 21:55:30 boo, people are sniffing too close to my other use case 21:55:40 Krystof: there are only two use cases :'( 21:55:41 that is, code mapping a url to a handler 21:55:49 -!- manornk [5f9b3026@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.155.48.38] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:55:59 or rather a sequence of handlers 21:56:03 I agree that the web space is interesting 21:56:25 so one could say it's a nice fit for clos 21:57:22 stassats: clisp would be cooler if people worked harder on using GNU Lightning but GNU Lightning is a dead end, anyway 21:57:36 As far as JIT compilation goes I think drmeister's work is more promising :) 21:58:10 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.65.200] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:58:53 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@bas1-kanata16-1279595928.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:59:10 but the problem I see is that the world has gone the way of expressing this stuff in what's essentially custom DSLs 21:59:10 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:59:25 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:59:49 well the world has mostly gone the way of expressing this stuff in not-Lisp 22:00:27 not-lisp is just a fad 22:02:03 -!- cneira [~cneira@pc-33-7-104-200.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:02:03 right, but for the example to be compelling it'd be nice if the user API actually looked simpler than the state of the art in other languages :-) 22:04:39 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:10 every OO technique in history has of course been justified the GUI use case 22:06:14 drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:33 "a minimized window needs to be rendered in a different way from a visible one" 22:06:57 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: experience stopped into permanent something] 22:07:43 true. "a minimized square prints differently onto a screen than a maximized circle on a printer" 22:09:03 gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-27-90.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:05 a regexp matching specializer would sometimes be nice to have 22:10:25 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:49 danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:56 Adlai` [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:11:55 a real-world use case I have for that is parsing an ad hoc text DSL (not a sexp DSL) 22:12:21 "I know, I'll try another regexp" "Now I have 19 problems" 22:12:28 the tricky bit for that use case is that you don't just want matching 22:12:39 register group capturing too? 22:12:41 but also extracting the matched patterns 22:12:42 right 22:12:46 we're talking about that over -> there 22:13:12 hpd [~hpd@hpdeifel.de] has joined #lisp 22:13:19 cneira [~cneira@pc-33-7-104-200.cm.vtr.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:27 that looked too technical for me. I'm more of an ideas guy :-P 22:13:46 ideas guys can be useful too 22:13:56 just remember to keep quiet when the techies have their whiteboard sessions 22:14:21 make the coffee or something 22:16:16 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:18:47 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-63-206.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 22:18:58 akbiggs [~akbiggs@bas1-kanata16-1279595928.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:19:05 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-63-206.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:19:43 -!- cneira [~cneira@pc-33-7-104-200.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:20:39 francogrex [~user@91.179.218.23] has joined #lisp 22:22:02 Hi all: Could use some help. Using log4cl I do: (log:config :pattern "%d | %-5p | %m%n"). Problem is: I get output like this: 2014-01-01 22:18:44 | FATAL | DISPLAY-STRING: "This is from Python." - I want: 2014-01-01 22:18:44 | FATAL | This is from Python. - Anyone seen this ? 22:26:07 minion: seen maxm- 22:26:07 maxm was last seen 5y6m14d32h43m10s ago, saying "minion: when are you going to support seen?" 22:27:17 minion: seen maxm- 22:27:18 maxm was last seen 5y6m14d32h43m10s ago, saying "minion: when are you going to support seen?" 22:27:35 He's lying to us! 22:27:35 way to ruin the joke! 22:28:16 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:28:22 i can make it count from some predetermined time, that can fool you 22:28:25 pecg [~pecg@190.92.53.146] has joined #lisp 22:28:28 -!- pecg [~pecg@190.92.53.146] has quit [Changing host] 22:28:28 pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has joined #lisp 22:28:35 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:28:50 No way, I can still check logs. 22:29:36 minion: seen hitecnologys 22:29:36 hitecnologys was last seen 5y6m14d32h43m10s ago, saying "minion: when are you going to support seen?" 22:29:43 then just make minion host logs and fake them 22:29:50 minion: where's hitecnologys? 22:29:50 behind you! 22:30:28 lol 22:30:35 Well, I most certainly didn't ask minion anything 5 years ago. 22:30:42 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 22:30:46 I wrote a "seen" module for minion about 6 years ago :( 22:32:25 Looks like it works, but in different universe where time is frozen. 22:32:34 probably adding a "delete" button to paste.lisp.org would be a better use of time than faking logs 22:32:52 this pesky spam is getting annoying 22:33:03 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:33:12 How are you going to check if someone is allowed to delete paste? 22:33:25 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Client Quit] 22:33:29 well, i will allow it only for myself 22:33:39 Ah, I see. 22:34:23 there was a "report spam" or something button in the past, but that's got buried in some araneida fossils 22:35:12 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-33-22.toya.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:36:26 __class__ [~class@c-98-207-86-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:00 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:37:31 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@bas1-kanata16-1279595928.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:38:06 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:38:36 killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-33-22.toya.net.pl] has joined #lisp 22:38:55 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.65.200] has joined #lisp 22:44:11 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:32 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 22:48:57 fsckd [~joggle@april-fools/runnerup/fsckd] has joined #lisp 22:49:22 dkordic [~danilo@93-86-155-154.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 22:49:49 -!- frgo [~frgo@p5498EE03.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 22:50:17 akbiggs [~akbiggs@76.69.21.152] has joined #lisp 22:55:20 -!- mc40 [~mcheema@146.255.107.122] has quit [Quit: mc40] 22:56:47 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6A290.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:01:18 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5025:5b20:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 23:06:35 drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:46 -!- francogrex [~user@91.179.218.23] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:07:02 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6A290.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:07:12 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:11:54 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-63-206.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 23:12:34 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3D02.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:15:52 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 23:16:18 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@76.69.21.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:16:37 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-63-206.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:16:57 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 23:17:40 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:18:41 I wonder if anyone's ever ported PCL's allegro-serve code to use Hunchentoot instead 23:19:12 I'm doing that right now on my own accord but if no one's done it before me then I could submit this code somewhere for general use :) 23:19:29 -!- [6502] [5e24f523@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.245.35] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:20:04 -!- pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 23:21:58 zickzackv [~faot@p4FC97681.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:23:33 abunchofdollarsi [~abunchofd@l33t.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 23:23:42 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:24:23 How to take an alist of symbols and variables and introduce lexical bindings at runtime? 23:24:30 Do I need to do everything in eval? 23:24:58 fridim__ [~fridim@207.147.19.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:24 use a macro 23:26:51 write your form as you were at runtime 23:27:10 I don't know how many bindings there are going to be until runtime. 23:27:15 ah 23:27:40 abunchofdollarsi: you can't introduce lexical bindings at runtime without eval. explain what you're doing? 23:28:47 I have a nested alist and I would like to incrementally iterate a set of bindings over it's elements; I will provide an example. 23:29:40 drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:49 https://gist.github.com/burrows-labs/8212839 23:30:26 akbiggs [~akbiggs@bas1-kanata16-1279595928.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:31:06 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p5B2B3890.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:17 this doesn't really make sense in isolation... 23:31:52 It's not clear to me what you mean. 23:32:15 What is iterating a binding? How is this an alist? 23:32:23 -!- gigetoo_ [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:13 I was wrong to call it an alist I think. 23:34:00 Rule of thumb: if you ever need EVAL, think twice. 23:34:03 gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:34:08 By iterate a binding I mean that given a list like the one in my example and the expectation of four bindings at the appropriate level of nesting I want an iterator that will go through the list and find all such possibilities in order. 23:34:09 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-33-22.toya.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:34:19 If the list was just (a (b (c d))) 23:34:31 And I told it to bind using this form 23:34:36 (a1 (b1 (c1 d1))) 23:34:57 I would want (let ((a1 a) (b1 b) (c1 c) (d1 d)) etc) 23:35:12 What for? 23:35:19 So the actual variables you'r 23:35:24 Simplify a piece of code. 23:35:24 e binding are known? 23:35:32 Yes at runtime. 23:35:44 this sounds anything but simple 23:35:47 So, you need to do macro-work at runtime? 23:35:56 killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-33-22.toya.net.pl] has joined #lisp 23:35:56 I was looking to avoid such. 23:36:05 if you show some actual code it might be possible to untangle what you want 23:36:29 abunchofdollarsi: the alist is learned at runtime, (a1 (b1 (c1 d1))) at compile time? 23:36:53 That list I know at compile time. 23:37:25 so the actual variables you're binding are fixed, it's the values you want to change. 23:37:34 That's correct. 23:37:59 _tca [~user@unaffiliated/theconartist] has joined #lisp 23:38:06 You've misrepresented your problem. Just write a macro that expands into some sort of loop with different values each iteration. 23:38:55 Ah I see because I can assume the values form will match my bindings form. 23:38:56 Yes. 23:39:04 destructuring-bind? 23:39:21 it might not be quite flexible enough but it's close 23:39:37 -!- jasom_ is now known as jasom 23:41:03 antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 23:41:08 -!- zulu_inuoe [~quassel@71.47.78.155] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:41:46 -!- ehu` [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:42:04 As I don't know the exact form of the values (only a general layout) I don't think destructuring-bind will work. 23:42:27 zulu_inuoe [~quassel@71.47.78.155] has joined #lisp 23:42:43 -!- fsckd [~joggle@april-fools/runnerup/fsckd] has left #lisp 23:45:18 What do you mean by "general layout" and "exact form"? 23:45:51 -!- zulu_inuoe [~quassel@71.47.78.155] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:46:26 zulu_inuoe [~quassel@71.47.78.155] has joined #lisp 23:46:35 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:46:58 ie, in the example I posted the values will have the "general layout" of 3 nested lists, but at any given level of nesting there can be an arbitrary number of elements. 23:47:16 (a (b c) (d e) (f g)) 23:47:19 (a (b c)) 23:47:34 Same general layout. 23:47:44 But for example (a (b (c d))) would not be valid. 23:48:08 Err, can you paste some actual code, please? 23:48:17 The reason I called it an alist is because it's like a mapping to (b c) then (d e) then (f g) 23:48:44 It's part of a larger thing, give me a second. 23:50:29 <_death> it looks like you want to traverse a tree 23:50:41 Yes that's certainly part of it. 23:50:50 And I just want the bindings to play nice with it. 23:51:32 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:51:48 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:52:26 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@c-24-5-192-204.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:52:32 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:31 -!- lman [~user@unaffiliated/lman] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:55:08 -!- crixxus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:56:06 hitecnologys, it looks something like this https://gist.github.com/burrows-labs/8213049 23:56:11 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:29 And I'm looking to implement update-onion-state!(...) in a reasonable flexible way. 23:57:42 -!- bassclide [~bassclide@118.129.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:58:03 Are you looking to do pattern-matching against a block of lisp code? 23:58:09 Yes. 23:59:59 crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 00:00:17 -!- Vaporatorius [~vaporator@191.Red-88-5-227.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:00:34 ebobby [~fms@189.170.17.62] has joined #lisp 00:00:57 nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-yoedzchujidxfctk] has joined #lisp 00:01:47 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-33-22.toya.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:01:49 -!- zulu_inuoe [~quassel@71.47.78.155] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:02:13 Maybe CL-UNIFICATION or something along those lines would be of interest... 00:02:46 I took a look at it but it wasn't clear to me how to accomplish my goal with it. 00:02:51 zulu_inuoe [~quassel@71.47.78.155] has joined #lisp 00:03:02 Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:08 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p4FC97681.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:04:13 -!- zulu_inuoe [~quassel@71.47.78.155] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:04:29 drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:50 zulu_inuoe [~quassel@71.47.78.155] has joined #lisp 00:05:17 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5025:5b20:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:06:19 -!- zulu_inuoe [~quassel@71.47.78.155] has quit [Client Quit] 00:06:28 What exactly update-onion-state! is supposed to do? 00:06:45 Yes, I'm kind of vague on this too, sorry. I know that I've seen code along these lines in some of the Lisp-flavored AI books. Maybe Tanimoto or Norvig. 00:09:05 I want it to take that list of keys/values and update the `onion` parameter with it; ie after the test case `onions` should be exactly the same except anotherlevel => newlevel 00:10:12 killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-33-22.toya.net.pl] has joined #lisp 00:10:35 Why anotherlevel, not level? 00:11:21 arpunk` [~user@190.84.40.17] has joined #lisp 00:11:23 Oh that example code is broke. 00:11:33 -!- arpunk [~user@unaffiliated/arpunk] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:11:36 -!- arpunk` is now known as arpunk 00:11:39 -!- arpunk [~user@190.84.40.17] has quit [Changing host] 00:11:39 arpunk [~user@unaffiliated/arpunk] has joined #lisp 00:12:03 Updated it. 00:14:22 -!- fridim__ [~fridim@207.147.19.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:15:57 <_death> abunchofdollarsi: http://paste.lisp.org/display/140750 00:16:44 that's awesome _death 00:18:32 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:21:36 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzZZ] 00:22:42 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:40 nilsi__ [~nilsi@58.209.45.93] has joined #lisp 00:27:10 Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:28:02 <_death> (you may want to avoid dolist and have your own nil block set up) 00:28:28 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@58.209.45.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:28:33 What does `nil block` mean? 00:28:43 -!- Praise- is now known as Praise 00:29:03 -!- cory786 [~cory@75-22-101-128.lightspeed.dblnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29:14 <_death> (block nil ...) 00:29:35 I see. 00:30:56 -!- zimerilim [~rett@64.124.28.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:31:21 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:37:16 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 00:38:34 pecg 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quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:19:58 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #lisp 03:20:06 just to verify....so if you define a variable in the global environment it is visible EVERYWHERE to aLL macros and functions? 03:20:23 yes 03:20:27 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 03:20:31 stassats: thanks 03:20:34 and macros are just functions 03:21:27 stassats: macros are special functions that affect eval and they evaluated in a nonstandard way since list elements aren't eval'd first right? 03:21:42 macro forms aren't evaluated in the same way function forms are but it's still plenty standard 03:22:08 no, they are as standard as they come, but are just called by the evaluator with source forms and their results are used in place of those source forms 03:22:34 (there's also destructuring bolted on) 03:22:40 I'm having a hard time picturing environments in my head since there is more than one.....iirc everytime a function is called it bolts a new level to the global environment which isn't easy to hold in my head when there are lots of func calls nested 03:23:18 environments do not exist in reality, it's just a model 03:24:29 there is a stack of special bindings, there's a stack of unwind sections, catch sections, etc. 03:24:44 Bike_ [~Glossina@67-5-224-236.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:25 Bike__ [~Glossina@67-5-227-206.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:14 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-175-75-157.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:29:23 -!- Bike_ [~Glossina@67-5-224-236.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:29:27 -!- arpunk [~user@unaffiliated/arpunk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:32:02 pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has joined #lisp 03:33:56 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:34:10 -!- pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has quit [Client Quit] 03:34:36 pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has joined #lisp 03:36:54 -!- Bike__ is now known as Bike 03:42:38 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 03:42:43 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 03:45:39 -!- pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 03:46:06 One way to think of environments is a representation of all the local "state" at a given place in the execution tree. 03:47:58 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:48:41 drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:29 ggole [~ggole@106-68-225-128.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:04:56 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-130-210.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:10:58 stassats: unwind and catch sections? wow...i don't think SICP talked about that...lemmie check... 04:11:43 well, it has continuations. 04:12:06 SICP doesn't use the first class continuations of scheme. 04:12:12 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:12:23 It probably won't have covered unwind and catch, either. 04:12:27 Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:29 SICP doesn't really talk about Common Lisp at all 04:13:06 They're just transformations on the normal flow-control. 04:13:07 -!- ben_m [~ben@chello062178107037.8.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: night yo] 04:18:04 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:18:41 danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:07 the most confusing thing about environments imho is that in lexical scoping a lambda function always operates with the environment *at the point it was created*...that's pretty funky 04:20:41 i bet a similar attitude is why elisp happened 04:20:43 everything else about environments is pretty straight forward 04:20:55 lexical environment exists only at compile-time, though 04:21:20 It's not funky if you understand what 'lexical' means. :) 04:21:55 Bike: that would be ironic seeing as how emacers (some) are trying to port emacs to scheme now 04:22:21 I suspect that what's more confusing is the implicitness of lexical capture. 04:22:51 sohail [~sohail@69-196-139-132.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 04:22:51 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-196-139-132.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 04:22:51 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 04:23:36 I suspect that's why js is more 'this' oriented than 'closure' oriented. 04:23:43 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:23 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 04:28:04 n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:6813:a1c3:dfab:b797] has joined #lisp 04:29:04 Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:32:36 -!- deadghost [~deadghost@71-84-218-145.dhcp.ccmn.ca.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:36:56 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-33-22.toya.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:37:19 -!- Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:38:42 killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-33-22.toya.net.pl] has joined #lisp 04:40:21 jimmyy [~jimmyy@124.150.50.136] has joined #lisp 04:42:28 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 04:43:25 js is "lexically" scoped, though 04:43:32 (Ignoring the evil that is hoisting.) 04:43:44 Oh, and with. 04:44:27 zimerilim_ [~rett@64.124.28.131] has joined #lisp 04:46:23 deadghost [~deadghost@71-84-218-145.dhcp.ccmn.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:46:57 It's lexically scoped, sure -- hard to have lexical closures without that. 04:48:07 Or, rather, it has lexically scoped variables, and non-lexically scoped variables, much like CL. :) 04:49:12 But what I find interesting is the use of 'this' as an environment to handle problems that would be otherwise handled by lexical closures in CL. 04:49:41 It provides an implicit, but explicitly accessed, environment for a computation to operate within. 04:50:28 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:50:46 I'm no JS hacker, but I was under the impression that the late binding of this was used for distinctly non-closure like things 04:50:59 And if you wanted static binding for this, you had to use that var that = this; hack. 04:52:01 ...although perhaps we are in greater agreement than I first thought. 04:53:35 You can use foo.call(this, ...) or foo.bind(this, ...) to avoid closure there. 04:53:59 That means that a standard function can be reused rather than cutting and pasting boilerplate into a lexical environment to produce a lexical closure. 05:00:22 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:00:50 -!- deadghost [~deadghost@71-84-218-145.dhcp.ccmn.ca.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:04:21 deadghost [~deadghost@71-84-218-145.dhcp.ccmn.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:04:42 drmeister 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11:05:16 -!- lyanchih_ [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:07:18 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:09:17 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 11:19:12 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 11:19:50 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-75-188.w90-35.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:30:44 josemanuel [~josemanue@129.Red-79-157-174.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:04 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:35:19 marcoecc [~user@ec2-184-73-245-68.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 11:36:02 -!- turbopape [~turbopape@41.230.41.84] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 11:36:35 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@129.Red-79-157-174.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:36:54 Guys, ccl, windows  any suggestion where to look for adjusting file/directory ACL's and/or simple attributes (hidden/encrypted/compressable)? 11:37:14 ffi 11:37:33 exactly. 11:37:55 Along with http://msdn.microsoft.com 11:38:05 -!- Guest61727 [~knob@76.76.202.245] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:38:27 knob [~knob@76.76.202.245] has joined #lisp 11:38:47 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:39:38 Doesn't sbcl have built-in support for WinAPI? 11:40:01 s/Doesn't/Does/ 11:40:02 not really, whatever that means 11:40:16 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:6813:a1c3:dfab:b797] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:40:28 Hm. Doesn't sound good :) 11:40:30 Thanks. 11:40:33 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-144-253.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:41:05 stassats`: not really means "not" or "incomplete"? 11:41:14 -!- mc40 [~mcheema@146.255.107.122] has quit [Quit: mc40] 11:41:26 You mean, besides the 978 symbols exported from CL and for which they have to issue a new release each month to correct bugs, they would support the bazzillions of functions from the WinAPI? 11:41:53 Yeah, something like that... 11:42:19 mc40 [~mcheema@146.255.107.122] has joined #lisp 11:42:33 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A69ED2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:42:35 Well, of course no one needs this, I agree. I was just curious. 11:43:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-225-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 11:44:58 actually developing software is a bad thing 11:45:03 ... 11:45:28 ggole [~ggole@58-7-52-193.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:46:14 Sure. Less code -- less bugs. 11:46:44 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A69ED2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:46:48 that's not what pjb is saying 11:48:29 He's saying that there are too much work to be done to implement this so it's not worth it, correct? 11:48:53 no, he's constantly jabbing at software that has regular releases 11:49:07 Ah, I see. 11:49:15 unlike clisp, which is stagnating for years 11:50:40 Regular releases suck, I have everything working fine in the summer, come back to my emacs+slime setup and then things break. :D 11:51:18 with clisp it's better! things didn't work a year ago, they still don't work. all hail GPL 11:52:18 Oh, that looks like me. Things didn't work years ago, still don't work and even more things are broken now. 11:53:29 Well, I'll definitely fix everything. Tomorrow, maybe. 11:53:52 Moving targets suck, but otherwise the problem here is that indeed, lispers are already spread thin enough, you wouldn't want them to add the ten million MS Windows API function to the lot. 11:54:26 Therefore there is CFFI, and you do it yourself when you need it! 11:56:04 good argument: since there's not enough lispers, it's a good strategy to duplicate efforts 11:56:08 is there a way to get error messages generated by top-level unhandled conditions in the slime repl buffer? 11:56:41 they appear in the sldb buffer, which is great, but after you press q to leave sldb, they are gone 11:56:46 all that is logged in the repl buffer is something like: 11:56:46 ; Evaluation aborted on # don't unhandle them 11:57:24 macdice: well, they are not gone IIRC. You can reopen buffer if you want and continue working on it. 11:57:55 stassats`: 1- it would be preferable that sbcl maintainers concentrate on sbcl. 2- if would be less duplicate work if the interested parties did the CFFI wrapper over the WinAPI once for all implementations (ie. using CFFI, not specific to sbcl!). 11:57:56 someone could volunteer to create a Win32 API binding library using CFFI then everyone could use it 11:58:23 Exactly. 11:58:33 *hitecnologys* agrees with Guthur` 11:58:41 hmm. no, sldb is gone after you press q. maybe i shouldn't do that 11:59:04 Perhaps thru the *debugger-hook* you could do that. 11:59:17 the thing is, it logs the statement that would produce the error message (typically a format string, without the parameters that i need to understand the error condition!) 11:59:45 i don't understand you 12:00:09 ok let me find a paste bin... 12:00:28 you have sldb, what else do you need? 12:00:29 to be fair to MS their API stays relatively stable 12:00:46 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 12:01:04 pnpuff [~ephemeral@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 12:01:18 http://pastebin.com/J5pyDgbs <-- what it looks like if you invoke a function with the wrong number of arguments 12:01:20 stassats`: he needs debugged being displayed in REPL instead of SLDB. 12:01:44 (gah, what a ghastly pastebin, the ads hurt my eyes) 12:01:44 s/debugged/debugger/ 12:01:45 hitecnologys: he needs to stop wanting that 12:01:51 heh :-) 12:02:00 Sounds like a solution. 12:02:16 Yes, like this: (setf *debugger-hook* (let ((old-debugger-hook *debugger-hook*)) (defun trace-error-debugger-hook (condition me-or-my-encapsulation) (format *trace-output* "~A~%" condition)(funcall old-debugger-hook condition me-or-my-encapsulation)))) 12:02:16 yeah sldb is great. i dig it. but sometimes i want to review previous errors from my session 12:02:39 macdice: there are solutions to ghastly ads 12:02:44 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:02:57 Guthur`: the problem here is not the stability of the API, it's its size. 12:03:07 And ensuring that all the wrapper are bug free, in all circumstances. 12:03:35 ; Evaluation aborted on is enough for such purposes 12:03:36 be thankful for what you have, there wasn't even this much information some years ago 12:03:42 pjb: sure, just a passing comment to help encourage would be implementers, hehe 12:03:59 Assuring that a unix wrapper is ok, with signal handling, errno, etc, is already hard enough, I wouldn't want to think about the WinAPI. 12:04:07 yes, if you can't have a bug-free code, don't write any 12:04:18 stassats`: how's your IDE thing going on, by the way? 12:04:51 hitecnologys: i followed pjb's advice and stopped writing it, it's inevitable to have bugs 12:04:51 he found a bug so deleted it 12:05:36 stassats`: so, no replacement for SLIME is coming? 12:05:40 hitecnologys: i know only bitch on irc about other people successfully writing new software 12:05:44 now 12:06:08 SLIME replacement, that's a tall order 12:06:15 I see. 12:06:20 protist_ [~protist@65.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 12:06:32 stassats`: do you not already do some work on SLIME 12:06:56 i did 12:07:11 but fixing bugs is for suckers 12:07:31 real programmers don't have time to add-in bugs. 12:08:31 it's always more fun to reimplement than to fix bugs 12:09:32 Real programmers write and run code in their heads. They don't need computers or anything. 12:09:32 No code -- no bugs to fix or add. 12:09:32 Real Programmers teach the computer how to write the code for them 12:09:32 lying on a beach, sipping daiquiris 12:09:50 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:09:52 how boring that must be 12:10:01 -!- protist [~protist@243.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:11:37 clearly none of you are using Butterfly Mode 12:12:06 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 12:12:50 hitecnologys_ [~hitecnolo@46.233.224.31] has joined #lisp 12:13:09 Madame Butterfly Mode? :P 12:13:45 pnpuff: M-x butterfly RET 12:16:04 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@62.182.195.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:16:50 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 12:18:54 -!- pnpuff [~ephemeral@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [] 12:19:08 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 12:19:56 -!- diadara [~diadara@117.221.171.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:20:17 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:21:49 bassclide1 [~bassclide@118.129.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 12:21:49 -!- bassclide [~bassclide@118.129.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:24:48 diadara [~diadara@117.213.49.74] has joined #lisp 12:26:10 hitecnologys__ [~hitecnolo@109.120.31.123] has joined #lisp 12:28:21 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 12:29:38 -!- hitecnologys_ [~hitecnolo@46.233.224.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:31:12 -!- hitecnologys__ is now known as hitecnologys 12:32:36 -!- motionman is now known as TackleBell 12:34:53 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:35:00 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:35:09 -!- diadara [~diadara@117.213.49.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:35:17 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:35:21 diadara [~diadara@117.206.48.210] has joined #lisp 12:41:14 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:42:15 butterfly mode?? 12:42:37 yeah, there is a full conspiracy theory about the butterfly mode 12:42:40 oh 12:43:11 some say it is trojan, others a backdoor, be aware! 12:43:41 i say NSA friendly 12:46:47 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 12:46:50 origin: http://xkcd.com/378/ 12:47:07 (unless something else is being referenced?) 12:47:55 Phoodus: it is a trap 12:48:41 -!- diadara [~diadara@117.206.48.210] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:48:58 how so? 12:49:24 diadara [~diadara@117.206.48.210] has joined #lisp 12:51:03 Phoodus: alien technology 12:51:11 we don't understand it yet 12:51:19 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:39 seeing as that statement includes me not getting the joke/reference, I guess that holds 12:52:33 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:52:38 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 12:52:56 frgo_ [~frgo@p5491E9C3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:54:12 it's a dumb joke/reference imho 12:54:32 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.76.162] has joined #lisp 12:54:58 kdas_ [~kdas@49.15.9.43] has joined #lisp 12:55:09 lisp just isn't that alien anymore 12:55:16 in dumb things lay the answer to all questions in this universe 12:55:58 lisp symbols are so alien they gotta be interned 12:55:58 -!- frgo [~frgo@p5498EE03.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:55:58 the aliens here are those languages we have to use FFI for :p 12:56:36 dlowe: only temporally, lisp will be our OS very soon 12:57:26 mmhm. you can have it now if you're willing to live without hardware support. 12:57:30 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:57:53 dunno why lisp has this weird mystique. i think it's more like an amusing bit of hacker culture to pretend it's somehow magical at this point 12:57:53 I'm content with writing lisp libraries and apps 12:58:15 macdice: thirty-odd years ago, it had astonishing capabilities 12:58:37 these days, common lisp just strikes a nice balance 12:58:47 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.76.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:58:56 a very nice balance, I should say 12:58:58 STilda|2 [~kvirc@188.162.166.55] has joined #lisp 13:00:38 -!- STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:04:14 imo it's still difficult to find a language that provides all the expressiveness of Lisp 13:04:26 we shall create a new standard for the next 30 years, everybody will try to grab features from it 13:04:26 we shall not talk about any "we" 13:04:26 it could be the royal "we" 13:04:26 I've decided that expressiveness is somewhat overrated. The mind can craft a solution given tools at hand, and many times having logical restraints aids in the process. 13:04:26 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exit IRC/Hiberate] 13:04:26 My other favorite language now is Go, which definitely has a "my way or the highway" ethic. 13:04:26 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:04:26 we do seem to be in the middle of a language renaissance, new languages popping out all over the place 13:04:26 dlowe: i would disagree, if the solution required is significantly complex then more often than not a well constructed DSL is best way to express it 13:04:26 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.65.200] has joined #lisp 13:04:26 and Lisp is a very good substrate to create a DSL with 13:05:55 and if a data driven approach is prefer symbolic expressions are often a decent human parsable medium 13:05:57 dlowe: I disagree. I'm currently forced to use C++ and Java. They in no way help me think clearly 13:06:18 I'm also playing with APL which might not help me to think clearly, but at least forces me to think differently. :-) 13:06:39 loke: yeah, well. C++ is the poster child for bad language design, and Java for bad language style 13:07:12 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:07:47 *macdice* hacks C++ for money, though occasionally with an embedded Scheme interpreter for the stuff that needs massive configurability/DSL nature 13:08:16 -!- Phoodus [~user@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:08:32 Guthur`: maybe it's just me, but it's been *very* rare that I've seen a lisp program or library written in a DSL style 13:08:36 Well crafted DSLs seem to be too expensive to use generally. 13:09:17 dlowe: Then either you didn't look enough or your definition of DLS is probablu much more narrow than mine. 13:09:17 Someone wise on c.l.l. said that for a lisper, the high and low-level languages are both lisp. 13:09:37 dlowe: Sounds like a smart person why said that 13:10:11 Zhivago: yes, exactly 13:10:15 i quite like defining a few macros that let people say a bunch of stuff like (define-widget ...) in a "configuration" file, sticking a tail on it and calling it a DSL 13:10:20 where 'widget' is some concept from the problem domain 13:10:31 it's pretty superficial really 13:11:01 the power to bury expressions in such definitions is hard to beat, without 'greenspunning' 13:12:16 another thing i like doing, to justify this kind of use of alien technology, is to have a script that converts such 'configuration' files into an HTML page that various people ('the business', whatever) can read, sign off on etc 13:12:19 if you're writing services that have a separate operations team, turing-complete configuration files are the way to utter insanity 13:12:30 (that's a niche, I realize) 13:13:05 KaiQ [~localhost@p5B2B33A5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:13:10 macdice: yeah, I can see that would be an awesome feature 13:13:42 chenjf [~chenjf@113.102.123.169] has joined #lisp 13:13:46 this is the feature i used in a large project to defend against claims that we should have used javascript, python, lua etc 13:13:54 ie that it's analysable 13:15:07 however, in my personal project where i don't have to justify anything at all to anyone, i use common lisp rather than scheme, and it's lisp all the way down 13:16:01 for scheme, in a corporate environment, you can point people who've never heard of any of these things at web pages that say it's an extension language and they get that 13:17:47 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A69ED2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:17:53 -!- Code_Man [~Code_Man@178-85.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:19:10 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 13:20:00 dlowe: how about turing-complete system specification files? 13:20:10 I find those kind of insane. 13:22:49 Phoodus [~user@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:06 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-230-231.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:28:33 pierpa [~user@host198-93-dynamic.55-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:28:59 why are there less people today? last time i checked, we had more than 500 i think 13:30:27 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.206.1] has joined #lisp 13:30:27 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.206.1] has quit [Changing host] 13:30:27 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 13:31:13 maybe the quality of discussion has decreased 13:31:20 or maybe all the 31-year-olds have two children now 13:32:35 -!- Phoodus [~user@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 13:33:51 children are definitely my main impediment to lisp hacking! (lisp hacking = hacking in the time formerly known as spare) 13:34:09 Phoodus [~user@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:16 so you need to move lisp hacking to paid time 13:34:55 -!- diadara [~diadara@117.206.48.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:35:00 and teach your kids lisp hacking 13:35:22 that's a plan too 13:36:16 i did actually see a potential lisp hacking job that appealed and thought about it seriously but the time wasn't right 13:36:32 diadara [~diadara@117.206.53.98] has joined #lisp 13:37:05 using 'nova sparks' stack 13:37:19 at an evil bank 13:37:31 alternatively, all the people are still doing as much lisp hacking as possible, and the children have cut into irc time 13:37:51 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:38:10 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 13:39:01 Well, if a computer can be used or is needed to be used during the time you get paid, you could just try to find ways of solving problems with lisp. 13:39:06 that's a nicer alternative here 13:40:24 And it could be that some people are can't understand yet much after the holidays. I'm personally just gathering strength at the moment and am thinking about looking at the calendar to find out the date. 13:42:22 I don't usually look at the users list, so I wouldn't know if this is unusual or not. 13:43:06 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:43:24 Xach: yes, those are insane for similar reasons 13:45:41 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:50:17 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 13:52:40 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-144-87.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:53:29 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-192-154.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:56:25 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.245] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:56:58 knob [~knob@76.76.202.245] has joined #lisp 13:57:29 -!- Xach [xach@clozure-FF3E0EE5.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 13:58:28 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:59:39 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.76.162] has joined #lisp 14:04:10 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.76.162] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:04:46 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A69ED2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:06:02 dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 14:18:01 segv- [~mb@cpeB-151.mvcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:48 LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:22:07 gaudibrezn [~home@p5DC2C388.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:23:11 -!- gaudibrezn [~home@p5DC2C388.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 14:28:09 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:28:15 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 14:29:15 -!- jimmyy [~jimmyy@124.150.50.136] has quit [] 14:31:25 -!- OldContrarian [~user@h-234-51.a161.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:31:37 OldContrarian [~user@h-234-51.a161.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 14:33:20 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:37:44 -!- Guthur` [~user@ppp118-210-76-156.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40:31 -!- TackleBell [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tschьЯ] 14:43:40 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 14:46:58 Mindblaze [~Mindblaze@74-138-183-188.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 14:47:08 -!- nicdev` is now known as nicdev 14:47:43 -!- jking is now known as j_king 14:55:48 -!- ubii_ [~ubii@198.45.198.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:56:06 ubii_ [~ubii@198.45.198.1] has joined #lisp 14:57:42 -!- ubii_ is now known as ubii 14:58:36 -!- ubii [~ubii@198.45.198.1] has quit [Changing host] 14:58:36 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 14:59:39 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.76.162] has joined #lisp 15:00:39 -!- diadara [~diadara@117.206.53.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:00:49 -!- Mindblaze [~Mindblaze@74-138-183-188.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [] 15:00:59 diadara [~diadara@117.221.175.75] has joined #lisp 15:02:43 -!- jsambrook [18100c46@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.16.12.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:03:10 -!- vaporatorius is now known as Vaporatorius 15:04:32 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.76.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:08:13 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:34 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:11:45 why do people like plists? 15:11:56 aren't alists just way cooler?! 15:12:48 What's "cool" about either of them? 15:12:51 (sorry, not a useful comment, just been frustrated by different choices in different libraries i'm plugging into each other) 15:13:31 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 15:14:39 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:15:13 macdice: plists are easier to write, less syntax: (k1 v1 k2 v2 k3 v3) 15:15:18 -!- leo2007 [~leo@124.64.107.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:15:39 crixus [~Rob@69.77.176.98] has joined #lisp 15:16:18 in a way it's easier to manage entries with alists. 15:16:18 but plist and alist use the same time and space, so there's no other technical advantage of one over the other. 15:17:10 plist are also useful since they can be used for &key arguments to functions. 15:17:29 being able to map over the key-value pairs of an alists seems nice to me. but i have no doubt that you can somehow ask LOOP to do that for a plist 15:18:05 of course (loop for (k v) on plist by 'cddr do ) 15:19:04 -!- Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:19:22 sellout- [~Adium@c-67-176-62-45.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:22 -!- dkordic [~danilo@93-86-155-154.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:20:47 getting values from a plist is a little more concise 15:21:54 but inverse map is more concise with alists (rassoc). 15:23:50 is there a reason to prefer either over hash tables? 15:25:04 I guess the &key thing is nice. I haven't had enough coffee this morning methinks. 15:26:12 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 15:26:45 j_king: they are both way faster than hash-tables, for a small number of elements.] 15:28:07 j_king: order 15:28:08 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 15:28:11 stassats`: ah, of course. 15:30:41 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 15:30:41 -!- crixus [~Rob@69.77.176.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:31:28 And they are functional data structure: (cdr (assoc :k1 (acons :k1 2 '(:k1 1 :k2 2)))) -> 2 15:31:40 And, well, it's obviously not that convenient to write out a hash function in-code. 15:32:04 *hash map 15:32:20 Of course, it's much more convenient to write out a hash function in chantilly. 15:32:58 the place or the whipped cream? 15:33:41 THe whipped cream. 15:33:58 But you can go to Chantilly, and write out hash functions in chantilly too. 15:34:16 If you do it nicely, they could be called the chantillyІ functions. 15:34:25 akbiggs [~akbiggs@bas1-kanata16-1279595928.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:38:55 -!- j0ni__ is now known as j0ni 15:41:42 pmullin [~pmullin@24-231-255-219.dhcp.aldl.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:44:30 foom [~jknight@2620:15c:6:14:be30:5bff:fedf:6db6] has joined #lisp 15:46:41 michael_lee [~michael_l@117.36.37.112] has joined #lisp 15:49:32 -!- hugodunc` is now known as hugod 15:51:50 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A69ED2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:52:19 crixus [~Rob@69.77.176.98] has joined #lisp 15:53:58 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A69ED2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:54:00 -!- capisce [srodal@oftn/member/capisce] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:54:09 capisce [srodal@rs5.risingnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:37 -!- chenjf [~chenjf@113.102.123.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:56:43 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:58:01 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:58:46 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5025:5b20:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 16:00:06 kiuma_ [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:06:20 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:10:14 -!- michael_lee [~michael_l@117.36.37.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:10:48 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 16:12:17 Are there any other cryptography libraries for CL except Ironclad? 16:12:22 cl+ssl 16:12:29 hitecnologys: what are you looking for? 16:13:17 Well, to precise, I mostly need RSA and good random prime numbers generation algorithm implementation. 16:13:39 minion: cl-gpg? 16:13:40 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cl-gpg''. 16:13:42 minion: cl-pgp? 16:13:42 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cl-pgp''. 16:14:33 michael_lee [~michael_l@117.36.37.112] has joined #lisp 16:16:12 Interface to GPG would actually be even better than plain library. 16:17:48 Pullphinger [~Pullphing@12.40.23.68] has joined #lisp 16:21:22 chadhs [~textual@66.195.151.70] has joined #lisp 16:23:33 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:25:20 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A69ED2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:25:53 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:53 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A69ED2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:28:25 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-67-176-62-45.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:28:39 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:29:15 zimerilim_ [~rett@64.124.28.131] has joined #lisp 16:29:39 -!- diadara [~diadara@117.221.175.75] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:30:32 diadara [~diadara@117.206.57.79] has joined #lisp 16:30:52 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-bwjcrrkbqanmocrr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:36:24 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:37:20 jewel [~jewel@105-236-25-199.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:41:06 -!- zimerilim_ [~rett@64.124.28.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:42:53 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-54-8-105.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:43:38 sellout- [~Adium@66.185.108.211] has joined #lisp 16:43:45 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A69ED2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:44:21 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:45:16 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:45:16 fp0 [~davebelan@S0106b8a386573a5e.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:27 minion: ironclad? 16:45:27 ironclad: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/ironclad 16:47:48 -!- Guest3145 is now known as iwilcox 16:47:48 -!- iwilcox is now known as Guest50915 16:47:48 -!- Guest50915 is now known as Guest3145 16:47:57 hitecnologys: there's com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.tea which implements TEA, the Tiny Encryption Algorithm. 16:47:57 hitecnologys: i haven't ued it in a while, but cl+ssl is an interface to openssl (which has big prime generation, rsa primes, etc.) 16:48:03 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:50:20 -!- Guest3145 is now known as iwilcox 16:50:20 -!- iwilcox [~iwilcox@87.114.5.212] has quit [Changing host] 16:50:20 iwilcox [~iwilcox@unaffiliated/iwilcox] has joined #lisp 16:50:20 zimerilim_ [~rett@64.124.28.131] has joined #lisp 16:50:20 -!- diadara [~diadara@117.206.57.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:50:20 diadara_ [~diadara@117.221.175.50] has joined #lisp 16:51:15 -!- wg1024_ [~wg@dslb-084-058-017-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:52:52 pjb: how secure is it? 16:52:52 segv-: yeah, I think I might give cl+ssl a try. 16:53:05 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:53:53 -!- frgo_ is now known as dg1sbg 16:55:37 hitecnologys: for communication i just wrapped zmq4 which has its curvezmq stuff 16:55:37 it's pretty trivial and works sortof like ssh pubkey 16:55:37 -!- Phoodus [~user@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:55:37 kdas__ [~kdas@49.15.43.208] has joined #lisp 16:55:37 oGMo: OK, I'll look into that. Thanks for advice. 16:55:37 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 16:55:55 for anonymous connections you'd have work to do, but arguably no more than you would for SSL, since there is exactly zero standardization for CA distribution and revocation 16:56:21 hitecnologys: yeah i would read about curveZMQ first and see if it suits your needs, but it's an option 16:56:34 rockymadden [~rockymadd@unaffiliated/rockymadden] has joined #lisp 16:56:48 -!- kdas_ [~kdas@49.15.9.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:58:16 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-54-8-105.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:58:16 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:58:16 -!- STilda|2 [~kvirc@188.162.166.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:58:36 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:32:27 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 03:32:27 03:32:27 -!- names: ccl-logbot leo2007 kbtr eigenlicht kliph p_nathan bjz Denommus DataLinkDroid prxq_ harish edgar-rft axion chameco lyanchih_ echo-area joshe LiamH scoofy Ethan- Codynyx JuniorRoy ASau araujo zRecursive Bike crixus prip Sgeo drmeister kcj milosn arbscht pillton Quadrescence pdk kpreid Yanez bananagram Watcher7 seangrove rainbyte kobain rvchangue nialo- ivan yrk klhjhfhf djinni` paul0 cyphase gf3 Patzy keen__ theseb ndrei optikalmouse nug700 yacks green_ 03:32:27 -!- names: snits EvW drdo oleo xan_ ubii jdz oconnore _5kg billstclair tensorpudding theos scharan karswell rdd Vutral ski GuilOooo hlavaty gigetoo Petit_Dejeuner Krystof plathrop vsync Mon_Ouie asedeno Anarch mvilleneuve clog effy dmiles_afk nydel ered jasom ldionmarcil Vivitron cdidd kanru zarul vert2 dkordic copec bjorkintosh _d3f sellout- subtlepath tsuru sixbitslacker eee-blt_ Kruppe hyperboreean kirin` loke reeed naryl ThePhoeron Phoodus mathrick impulse 03:32:27 -!- names: AntiSpamMeta 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_death stokachu rotty_ antoszka Praise ktx robot-beethoven Xach stopbit ramus |3b| _andares _8hzp cic_ rk[imposter] newcup foom justinmcp_ brown``` cross j_king Kabaka Khisanth DrForr PuercoPop Mandus gabot runningskull karbak p_l sigjuice __class__ ineiros fmu peccu1 igorw sklr dRbiG Fade revolve gemelen Ash p_l|backup wormphlegm rk[] Zag [SLB] quasisane SHODAN marsam sfa enn wchun mood Posterdati 03:32:27 -!- names: eagleflo Natch bobbysmith007 felipe capisce guaqua` Cheery wyan chr JPeterson setheus macdice yroeht1 theBlackDragon yano joast cpt_nemo eMBee daimrod felideon finnrobi aoh MikeSeth tvaalen oGMo clop smull specbot robiv vnz jaimef bentgf sorabji5252 dim chadhs nicdev vhost- flip214 abbe spacebat Labrit nullman housel` aerique_ brucem tessier sid_cypher easye ferada fikusz tychoish xristos luis killmaster tomaw iwilcox tkd kmder nightfly H4ns yeltzooo 03:32:27 -!- names: freiksenet epsylon` rtoym xian phadthai redline6561 zenoli gensym pchrist sword otwieracz Roin bhyde schoppenhauer nuba Wukix hpd j0ni cods jackdaniel spacefrogg musicalchair hiredman photex sytse eak_ nitro_idiot_ hypno zbigniew benny ircbrowse K1rk Adeon nbouscal 03:34:31 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:42:42 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 03:43:26 -!- joast [~rick@cpe-24-160-56-92.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:46:11 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:50:15 -!- blacklabel [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:51:33 -!- bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:52:55 Is there a direct way of making a function in a variable fbound to the same name (lexically). obviously I can flet a local function funcalling the variable, but I was wondering if there was something more direct I had missed. 03:53:07 noe 03:53:09 nope* 03:53:25 thanks, thats kind of what I thought 03:54:45 bobbysmith007, i wrote a library for that 03:55:12 I suppose it would be a dynamic binding ala progv rather than a lexical one anyway 03:55:23 Quadrescence: name / github? 03:55:35 Assuming I understand what you mean: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/letrec 03:56:59 Quadrescence: ahh, yeah, thats the current implementation I have and it just seemed like there should be a way to make things fbound dynamically, but I guess not. I think I have run into this before 03:59:47 well in any case there's a quicklispable library. if you have a better way please send a patch 04:01:11 n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has joined #lisp 04:01:29 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:51 Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-225-77-108.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 04:08:11 doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-12-236.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 04:10:03 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:12:25 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #lisp 04:15:57 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-225-77-108.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:18:05 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.185.228] has joined #lisp 04:18:05 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.185.228] has quit [Changing host] 04:18:05 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:19:45 kristof [~Kristoffe@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined 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joined #lisp 07:55:25 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:57:02 liqu0rice [~niklas@brln-4dbada91.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:15 -!- nug700 [~nug700@71-223-14-137.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 07:57:24 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-waagjnlwmvxbatnf] has joined #lisp 07:57:24 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-waagjnlwmvxbatnf] has quit [Changing host] 07:57:24 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:57:30 jewel [~jewel@105-237-68-160.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:57:39 -!- liqu0rice [~niklas@brln-4dbada91.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:57:44 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 07:57:47 liqu0rice [~niklas@brln-4dbada91.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:55 -!- lyanchih_ [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih_] 07:58:04 are there any CL implementations that support direct C-like [de]serialization of fixed-width ints & floats into byte arrays? 08:00:28 lyanchih_ [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:56 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-sqvclqibjvdzytro] has joined #lisp 08:02:42 hmm, some clever application of sb-alien:union might actually deliver manual support 08:02:47 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:03:23 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 08:03:31 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-162-208.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:03:32 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:03:52 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-162-208.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:04:25 kobain_ [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 08:04:41 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:05:37 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:06:55 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:08:03 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 08:10:07 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-162-208.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:10:50 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-162-208.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:11:30 -!- aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:17:56 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-162-208.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:18:18 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:20:41 -!- kobain_ [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [] 08:25:17 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #lisp 08:26:19 -!- cantstanya [~hello@unaffiliated/cantstanya] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:26:26 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 08:26:40 -!- motionman is now known as VillageKid 08:29:33 Harag 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ints and floats into byte arrays 09:10:02 :) 09:12:16 -!- KampungChai [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tschьЯ] 09:19:17 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-162-208.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:19:42 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-162-208.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:23:17 ehu [~ehu@62.140.132.215] has joined #lisp 09:24:06 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-sqvclqibjvdzytro] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:31:01 ogamita [~t@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 09:34:17 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:34:35 -!- liqu0rice [~niklas@brln-4dbada91.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:35:25 liqu0rice [~niklas@brln-4dbada91.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:50 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-okbkqlacdxohodzn] has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 09:38:20 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:e5a5:bb1:2d32:859c] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:39:09 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:39:35 -!- _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:40:05 -!- karupanerura is now known as zz_karupanerura 09:41:01 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-12-236.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:41:52 sh-armv7l [~sthalik@ks311808.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 09:44:39 dim: yes, those I'm familiar with. But I'm concerned about speed. I'm getting massively bogged down by the reader, and would rather schlorp up binary data and cast it to floats. 09:45:02 streaming a few gigabytes of raw numbers through an analyzer 09:46:34 You might consider using an ffi for that. 09:48:39 yep, that was my thinking 09:48:55 if it wasn't exposed anywhere else otherwise 09:49:00 lman` [~user@231.Red-176-83-48.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:05 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:49:11 -!- lman [~user@unaffiliated/lman] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:49:11 -!- lman` is now known as lman 09:49:14 -!- lman [~user@231.Red-176-83-48.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 09:49:14 lman [~user@unaffiliated/lman] has joined #lisp 09:52:02 An implementation could take as an extension (read-sequence (make-array 1024 :element-type 'single-float) (open "file.single-floats" :element-type 'single-float)) 09:52:31 Phoodus: you could write a CDR about that, and implement it in at least one implementation, and ask the others to do the same. 09:54:56 FrostyX [~frostyx@tux.inf.upol.cz] has joined #lisp 09:55:54 Hi, please, how to copy some object and make exactly same object like the first one, but independent? 09:56:20 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:57:08 -!- zz_karupanerura is now known as karupanerura 09:57:41 FrostyX: there is no general waz to do that for arbitrary objects 09:57:45 way 09:58:29 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:00:01 -!- sh-armv7l [~sthalik@ks311808.kimsufi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:01:11 -!- karupanerura is now known as zz_karupanerura 10:03:31 -!- bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:05:32 Sorry guys is here Andrew Lyon (orthecreedence on github)? Can not find any way to ask him something... 10:09:52 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5059:a0c0:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 10:15:42 vaporatorius [~vaporator@149.red-80-29-87.adsl.static.ccgg.telefonica.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:32 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:18:19 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:18:36 -!- lyanchih_ [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih_] 10:19:35 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 10:19:56 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 10:21:00 -!- Ombladon [filo3sofie@gateway/shell/panicbnc/x-xovomwatqtxaqwft] has left #lisp 10:24:18 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 10:35:00 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:35:43 KaiQ [~localhost@p578FC959.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:35:44 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-18-101.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 10:36:43 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 10:38:35 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.161.55.88] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting -- bye] 10:43:12 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:33 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:51:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:52:02 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 10:59:50 -!- karswell [~user@239.54.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:03:45 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-162-208.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:04:19 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-162-208.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:05:06 harish [~harish@124.197.108.203] has joined #lisp 11:07:00 solved it different way. But now I have to do exactly same thing for lists. So make copy of list. I thought there is function copy-list for it, but it seems to make only reference not copy 11:07:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-164.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:10:09 FrostyX: you should use vectors, lists are kind of old hat 11:10:12 or hash maps 11:10:14 imo 11:10:22 relational databases are interesting 11:10:49 I use some library from teacher so I have to do it through lists 11:11:25 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #lisp 11:11:38 specbot: clhs copy-list 11:12:26 specbot clhs copy-list 11:12:34 lets see 11:12:41 -!- gabot [~eli@racket/bot/gabot] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:12:47 FrostyX: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cp_lis.htm 11:12:47 -!- eli [~eli@racket/eli] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:13:01 "Only the list structure of list is copied; the elements of the resulting list are the same as the corresponding elements of the given list." 11:14:41 gabot [~eli@racket/bot/gabot] has joined #lisp 11:15:17 pillton: ctrl+space, alt+f (as needed), alt+w, navigation (as needed), ctrl+y 11:15:50 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@2a01:4f8:130:62a2::71] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:16:02 lisp is pretty cool 11:16:06 its really diy 11:16:47 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:17:21 you guys use arc 11:17:23 arc lang 11:17:31 ive written so many libs in it 11:17:36 paul graham is a sweetheart 11:17:40 Well, going from (read) to (read-byte) and manual bit banging, a single pass of the data goes from 20 minutes down to 20 seconds 11:17:53 nice!! 11:18:23 after verifying, of course, that SBCL does its own buffering behind the scenes ;) 11:21:01 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 11:23:40 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 11:23:51 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:23:56 -!- JuanDaugherty 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[~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:08:47 -!- LoicLisp [~loic@130.205.122.78.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:09:12 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:5401:d519:8ba8:2cc8] has joined #lisp 13:12:20 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@188.57.140.244] has joined #lisp 13:15:24 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:16:00 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:17:56 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:32 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-84-139.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 13:20:27 ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@85.110.95.132] has joined #lisp 13:22:14 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:23:45 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@188.57.140.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:24:47 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:25:02 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@mawercer.de] has joined #lisp 13:31:53 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 13:33:12 GeMi^Grl [~GeMiGrl@pa49-183-31-139.pa.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:34:39 -!- zygentoma [~kvirc@s213-103-195-100.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:36:22 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:37:39 hi 13:43:41 Hi! 13:44:33 hi 13:44:56 Lisp will one day take over the world. The end. 13:45:31 -!- GeMi^Grl [~GeMiGrl@pa49-183-31-139.pa.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:45:33 in what form? 13:46:30 -!- bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:46:31 A family of languages can't really perform actions 13:46:31 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@219.144.252.37] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:46:39 13:48:38 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #lisp 13:52:41 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 13:54:50 elfenixtorres [~vantage@113.Red-88-7-36.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:33 LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:59:12 -!- Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:00:07 zygentoma [~kvirc@s213-103-193-82.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 14:02:12 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@wlan253128.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07:12 KaiQ [~localhost@wlan253128.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #lisp 14:07:43 KDr2 [~KDr2@219.144.252.37] has joined #lisp 14:07:43 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:08:29 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 14:08:37 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:10:12 drmeister [~drmeister@166.170.21.39] has joined #lisp 14:10:47 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 14:11:33 clhs slot-missing 14:11:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_mi.htm 14:12:07 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:12:38 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 14:14:02 (theos) 14:14:23 '(hi) 14:15:12 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:16:06 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 14:17:37 -!- Kromitvs [~quassel@mcqueen.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:26 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 14:22:49 -!- nipra 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[~ustunozgu@li283-143.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:26:01 nug700 [~nug700@71-223-14-137.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:40 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:29:13 flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has joined #lisp 15:29:13 -!- flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has quit [Changing host] 15:29:13 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 15:29:55 KDr2 [~KDr2@219.144.252.37] has joined #lisp 15:31:22 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:33:11 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:36:33 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@wlan253128.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:38:28 developernotes [~developer@173-29-199-75.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 15:39:04 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:39:55 -!- zygentoma [~kvirc@s213-103-193-82.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:41:08 -!- Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 15:42:36 Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 15:42:39 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:43:37 normanrichards [~textual@mobile-166-147-064-104.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:08 head_hunter [4657eb03@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.87.235.3] has joined #lisp 15:45:29 Any of you guys available and interested in contract work? 15:45:43 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 15:45:49 any and all of us I would guess 15:45:53 or, don't ask to ask ;-) 15:46:38 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 15:46:50 head_hunter: i've heard of more than one person getting good lisp hires via http://lispjobs.wordpress.com/ 15:47:54 aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 15:48:35 Xach: I'm one of them :) 15:49:57 hooray 15:49:58 head_hunter: send an email to the owner of that blog 15:50:44 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:50:53 downloadico [~user@dhcp206.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 15:51:56 Thanks, I will. However, I'll post what we need here: 15:52:43 If you have experience in building OCR software, we need a piece of software which can decode double-stained (the blob in the middle of the word) reCaptcha images. 15:53:02 Please, send any quotes for this work, ETAs, and relevant experience to: markspencer80@outlook.com 15:53:55 Sounds super legit. 15:54:09 lol 15:54:31 if someones is bored and would appreciate an optimisation game: http://paste.lisp.org/display/140913#1 15:55:06 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 15:55:53 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-18-101.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:56:38 Xach: it's totally legit 15:57:05 fantazo [~fantazo@2001:62a:4:42b:a64e:31ff:fece:6b5c] has joined #lisp 15:57:09 green_ [~green@out-on-154.wireless.telus.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:02 cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 15:58:11 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:59:37 You should add that to the description, because anything that says "Totally legit" at the end is clearly totally legit. 16:00:07 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:07 I'll let the reCaptcha team down the hall know you're coming 16:00:37 Thanks, guys. I'm not looking to argue - just get some software built. 16:00:42 dlowe: hahaha 16:01:58 readl-line saith it reads a line terminated by newline, does it mean a literal #\Newline or can it be something else? what else? 16:02:03 SHODAN [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has joined #lisp 16:03:46 dim: the CLHS glossary defines "newline" as #\Newline 16:04:24 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@li283-143.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:05:16 dim: see http://l1sp.org/cl/11.1.8 though. 16:05:25 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@2001:62a:4:42b:a64e:31ff:fece:6b5c] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:05:39 -!- GuilOooo [~GuilOooo@mlir.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:05:42 Xach: your link is broken 16:05:48 sorry 16:05:49 mmm, 404 16:05:53 http://l1sp.org/cl/13.1.8 is it 16:06:02 *Xach* typo 16:06:07 -!- head_hunter [4657eb03@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.87.235.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:06:26 thanks, the context is onyl reading tho 16:06:55 -!- harish [~harish@124.197.108.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:07:14 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-18-101.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:07:17 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:07:24 GuilOooo [~GuilOooo@AMontpellier-551-1-41-4.w92-143.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:07:47 dim: it mentions a read transformation too 16:08:03 point is that what gets read as #\Newline is implementation-dependent 16:08:50 nice. I guess. 16:09:09 not very helpful if you're trying to write portable code :/ 16:09:42 -!- zophy_ [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:09:45 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-iiwpewdgnoongaho] has joined #lisp 16:11:05 askatasuna [~askatasun@181.30.10.50] has joined #lisp 16:11:25 yes and no. the intent seems to be that the implementation do the right thing according to the platform conventions. 16:11:41 you just can't portably know what those are, how to know if it's doing the right thing, or change it :) 16:11:45 KaiQ [~localhost@p578FC959.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:12:21 we-ell, you can look up at least one valid transformation with (format nil "~C" #\Newline) 16:12:27 and from there you could process your files to match 16:14:40 theZacAttack [~user@ns1.cccti.edu] has joined #lisp 16:14:53 (string #\Newline) 16:15:14 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 16:15:28 thanks, I knew format was overkill... 16:15:34 karswell [~user@87.113.62.57] has joined #lisp 16:15:44 at least I managed to restrain my first impulse to use with-output-to-string... 16:16:15 fortitude: write-to-string is a good one to know, too 16:16:38 crixus [~Rob@173.243.45.74] has joined #lisp 16:17:35 Would that get you anything useful in this context, though, or just a string with one character (#\Newline) in it? 16:18:06 now that I think about it, you'd probably get the latter 16:18:29 you'd have to encode it to a byte stream/sequence to get the transformation, I guess 16:20:12 -!- lman [~user@unaffiliated/lman] has left #lisp 16:20:51 -!- green_ [~green@out-on-154.wireless.telus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:21:00 obviously the real solution is to just store your files as sexprs 16:21:38 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:21:40 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:21:55 Xach: you're right, (string #\Newline) is a single-character string 16:22:02 nipra [~nipra@122.177.75.191] has joined #lisp 16:23:23 elfenixtorres [~vantage@113.Red-88-7-36.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:39 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:52 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:27:38 Pullphinger [~Pullphing@12.40.23.68] has joined #lisp 16:28:11 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-68-160.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:28:24 -!- normanrichards [~textual@mobile-166-147-064-104.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:29:41 any hunchentoot experts around? 16:30:21 scampbell [~scampbell@mail.scampbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:27 -!- ldionmarcil [~louis@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:30:41 slyrus: "expert" is a bit much, but what's the problem? 16:30:46 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-iiwpewdgnoongaho] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:31:22 I'm finally getting around to trying to fix hunchentoot-cgi and I've realized that I need to deal with passing the post data to the CGI process 16:31:43 SHODAN [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has joined #lisp 16:32:07 any thoughts on wheter I should try to hand off hunchentoot's stream directly or read all the data and make my in new stream and send that to the CGI process? 16:32:22 if hunchentoot-cgi just reads the request from stdin (and cgi still works the way i remember it working) you shouldn't have any problems just letting hunchentoot deal with it 16:33:26 slyrus: handing off hunchentoot's stream should work fine 16:33:52 hunchentoot does nothing special, and expects nothing special from, the stream it reads the request from 16:34:00 I would have thought so. Having trouble getting it to work :( 16:34:21 though hunchentoot will read and parse the post parameters, could that be causing you problems? 16:34:40 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 16:34:42 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ancmbkadwmmfbjgd] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:35:26 maybe. perhaps I just need to spend more time thinking this through. right now if I pass the input stream to run-program, I end up blocking when I try to read the process output. 16:36:15 my initial attempts seemed thwarted by the fact that I can't pass a flexi-stream to run-program. I tried using the flexi-streams:flexi-stream-stream, but that's when it blocks. 16:36:15 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:36:55 and flexi-streams might have an underlying buffer you'd need to worry about 16:37:16 right, but I thought I might be bypassing that by using the underlying stream 16:37:22 it does look like it'd be simpler, at least more explicit, to read the request in hunchentoot and then just "regenerate" it (wrapped in a stream maybe) for the cgi process 16:39:51 and yet when I naively try that with a flexi-stream in-memory-input-stream I find myself back at the initial problem :( 16:41:20 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 16:41:35 -!- GuilOooo [~GuilOooo@AMontpellier-551-1-41-4.w92-143.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:05 minion: memo for bobbysmith007 at https://github.com/AccelerationNet/cl-csv/issues/13 16:44:05 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``memo''. 16:44:19 minion: tell bobbysmith007 to have a look at https://github.com/AccelerationNet/cl-csv/issues/13 16:44:20 bobbysmith007: httpsgithub.comAccelerationNetcl-csvissues13: yes 16:44:29 -!- aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:44:40 mmm, I think it should be ok now... somehow I'm not sure 16:44:50 dim: I think it's "memo for user: text" 16:45:14 tell user text seems to work too, we'll see 16:45:17 thanks anyway 16:46:09 harish [~harish@14.100.132.177] has joined #lisp 16:46:33 -!- theZacAttack [~user@ns1.cccti.edu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:47:45 grumble grumble... the sbcl stream wants the element-type of the stream to be :default or (unsigned-byte 8). seems to me if was default or a type that was either (unsigned-byte 8) or a subtype of (unsigned-byte 8) that should be OK. 16:47:46 -!- Guthur [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:18 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:02 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:03 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:50:13 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:29 -!- rk[] is now known as rk[wrk] 16:50:45 percopal [~percopal@63.65.76.38] has joined #lisp 16:52:21 dim: I'm passing through briefly and see this, I will look in more depth after lunch 16:52:21 araujo [~araujo@190.73.46.113] has joined #lisp 16:52:21 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.46.113] has quit [Changing host] 16:52:21 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:52:23 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:53:06 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 16:55:25 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:59:35 -!- harish 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mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:19:22 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 17:19:55 savior [~savior@c-107-4-29-43.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:30 I am an unclean heathen, enlighten me, oh great lispers. 17:21:50 Go away. 17:22:18 -!- bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:22:20 -!- cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:22:58 I'll sit and observe quietly, is that okay? 17:23:07 -!- photex [~photex@192.241.224.216] has left #lisp 17:25:47 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:27:04 fiveop [~fiveop@p5DDC4465.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:27:19 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.43.24] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 17:28:22 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-116-73.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:28 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:00 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 17:34:58 cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 17:35:57 -!- LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:36:03 -!- ogamita [~t@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:36:57 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #lisp 17:37:08 savior: wtf 17:37:17 -!- bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:37:56 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #lisp 17:39:27 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5059:a0c0:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 17:39:51 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:40:05 hamfisted [52c38604@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.195.134.4] has joined #lisp 17:41:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-29.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host 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18:19:17 savior: go for it! 18:19:19 ^_^ 18:20:44 n0n0 [~n0n0___@32.154.181.195] has joined #lisp 18:21:31 ``Erik [~erik@pool-74-103-94-19.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:38 senj [~senj@unaffiliated/senj] has joined #lisp 18:24:07 STilda|2 [~kvirc@188.162.166.36] has joined #lisp 18:25:07 -!- pmullin [~pmullin@32.97.110.53] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:25:49 pmullin [~pmullin@32.97.110.53] has joined #lisp 18:26:52 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 18:27:57 -!- STilda [~kvirc@188.162.167.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:28:32 -!- akersof [~akersof@unaffiliated/zoroaster] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:29:03 akersof [~akersof@unaffiliated/zoroaster] has joined #lisp 18:30:00 -!- pmullin [~pmullin@32.97.110.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:31:21 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 18:34:10 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@2001:62a:4:429:a64e:31ff:fece:6b5c] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:38:13 Joreji [~thomas@136-135.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 18:43:04 levenson [~user@broadband-95-84-129-236.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 18:47:14 -!- jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-50-181-199-180.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:47:53 dim: eof seems to not quite be handled right in that revision, but I can probably track it down pretty quickly 18:48:18 eg: (with-input-from-string (s "abc,cde,efg,hij") (cl-csv::read-until s)) throws an EOF error 18:50:23 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:51:05 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:52:12 -!- adityarajbhatt [~adityaraj@122.161.174.98] has left #lisp 18:52:53 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@32.154.181.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:53:50 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 18:54:11 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:56:10 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:24 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:56:24 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 18:58:38 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 19:06:33 kristof_ [~Kristoffe@162-236-113-137.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:54 -!- kristof_ is now known as kristof 19:06:59 -!- kristof [~Kristoffe@162-236-113-137.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:06:59 kristof [~Kristoffe@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 19:07:17 green_ [~green@dsl-173-206-69-26.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 19:12:24 Forgetaboutit [~sammy@p4FFA7E99.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:14:24 hey guys :). Question regarding ECL: Is it possible to compile a program to a statically linked standalone program without any dependencies? 19:14:47 Yes. There's libecl.a 19:15:13 -!- levenson [~user@broadband-95-84-129-236.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:19 Hm. Do you know from the top of your head what's the circa size of this lib? 19:15:24 Weitere Wцrterbьcher 19:15:43 oops, sorry 19:16:26 about the same as libc.a 19:16:38 pjb: the reason I'm asking is to find out if it is feasible to use ECL for embedded stuff. 19:16:50 It is DESIGNED for embedded stuff. 19:17:15 by embedded I mean like at most 50k in size 19:17:34 Nope. For modern embedded, where you have at least 32-bit and 500 MB. 19:18:07 That's a pity 19:18:21 For 8-bit processors, there are LAP. 19:18:23 -!- downloadico [~user@dhcp206.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:18:30 eg. cl-6502 19:18:47 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:56 Do I understand it correctly that ECL maintains the ability to compile stuff like SBCL? 19:19:51 ecl has an interpreter, and two compilers. One byte code compiler, with a virtual machine, and one compiler made of a translator to C and calling out to a C compiler to generate the binary shared libraries that are then loaded back in lisp. 19:20:03 Because for it's not always needed and probably bloats the binary in some way 19:20:32 -!- vaporatorius is now known as Vaporatorius 19:20:36 it would depends on an external C compiler. 19:20:37 Forgetaboutit: ecl is a common lisp, and sbcl is mostly a common lisp program. 19:21:02 Forgetaboutit: if you want common lisp, you need a big machine. 32 bits and several mb of ram. that is it. 19:21:11 Well, there is lisp500.c 19:21:19 pjb: I'm aware of that. The advantage I see would be extreme portability and ease of development for embedded stuff, compared to raw C 19:21:19 You can have subsets of CL. 19:21:26 Forgetaboutit: if you want lisp on a smaller system, look for something other than cl 19:22:03 H4ns: Ah, that's good to know. Do you know of such systems? 19:22:29 (let ((size 0)) (do-external-symbols (sym "CL" size) (incf size (length (symbol-name sym))))) --> 11271 19:22:36 downloadico [~user@dhcp206.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 19:22:52 but there are ways to compress it, and it's not necessarily needed on an embedded target. 19:23:30 pjb: Ugh, that's a lot! Some way of tree shaking could help to include only code that is actually linked against. 19:23:48 lisp500.c is a pre-tree-shaked implementation :-) 19:23:53 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:26:20 pjb: What kind of Lisp is lisp500.c? It it an interpreter? 19:26:41 Yes, it's a subset of CL implemented in 500 lines of C code, and 500 lines of lisp library code. 19:26:59 Surprisingly close to CL. 19:27:16 Forgetaboutit: afaik, most embedded development with CL or related languages ends up cross-compiling a subset of the language to the target, since you usually have no means or desire to interact with the compiler on the embedded system itself. if you do need that dynamism, you might consider something like hedgehog instead. 19:27:37 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5059:a0c0:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:27:54 On the other hand, it requires 32-bit IIRC. But you could probably make it run on a 8-bit processor with 16-bit address space. 19:28:50 tokenrove: I assumed that there has to be something like that. I'm fine with cross-compiling and not having dynamic stuff at runtime. 19:29:40 My main concern is building extremely small executables with as much convenience as possible 19:30:30 tokenrove: Could you point me to some sources for further research? 19:30:38 Forgetaboutit: forgetaboutit 19:30:42 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5059:a0c0:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 19:30:52 common lisp always has large executables. 19:31:07 Well 19:31:13 ECL has a linking stage, doesn't it? 19:31:16 Forgetaboutit: i am actually working on something related to that, but it's nowhere near ready to be distributed. in the meantime, you might look at a couple of non-CL Lisps, like Stalin and hedgehog which both have different tradeoffs involved, but both should allow very small application delivery. 19:31:17 And Lispworks does tree-shaking. 19:31:22 prxq: Haha :D 19:31:35 pjb: lisp500 isn't a compiler though is it 19:31:41 cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 19:32:06 Anyway, expecting to deliver small Lisp executables is like expecting someone to run a small jar without the JVM, hence needing to statically link the... entire JVM. 19:32:14 A long time ago, Jonathan Rees worked on a system for programming mobile robots in Scheme -- 68K CPU with cross compilation from a workstation: http://mumble.net/~jar/pubs/scheme-mobile-robots.ps 19:32:49 kristof: I've been digging through the manual, but couldn't find a way to link stuff statically without depending on a complete runtime. 19:33:01 Forgetaboutit: yeah, if you want to use CL, you should talk to some of the commercial vendors and see if you can get an estimate from them on how small something that does what you need can be produced from their application delivery systems. 19:33:19 Forgetaboutit: what kristof says nails the issue, IMO. If you want small executables, well, there is C, Ada, Fortran, etc. Anything with a nontrivial runtime will be fat. 19:33:19 tokenrove: Franz does not do tree-shaking, Lispworks does. That's as far as I know. 19:33:28 i wonder if you could just make a CL where any of the "dynamic" bits required calling a host machine to recompile, which would ease development and keep your lisp small 19:34:16 oGMo: would it *be* small or just *look* small? You can just use a little executable of under 1 k to run sbcl. 19:34:19 oGMo: Do you mean actually sending some code over the network to compile on someone else's computer? 19:34:32 brown```: Thanks for the link! 19:34:36 *kristof* shudders 19:34:58 prxq: obviously you need to keep your runtime small-ish; i don't think CL is really the answer in this case either, but you could probably do a fair bit of trimming 19:35:38 kristof: i thought the discussion was regarding embedded, so i mean more USB or serial 19:35:39 You know, big ol' common lisps like SBCL are really SMALL compared to languages with comparable runtime environments 19:35:43 have you SEEN how large GHC is? 19:35:55 Forgetaboutit: also, Dylan, not lisp but lisp-related, has more of an application delivery-oriented design, though i'm not sure if the tools are at the point where they can do exactly what you want 19:36:08 oGMo: ECL DOES stand for "Embeddable Common Lisp" 19:36:13 kristof: i never looked; i killed it hours into the compile before it could finish ;) 19:36:23 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5059:a0c0:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:36:30 oGMo: Hey man, graph reduction takes a while 19:37:34 personally i want a tiny system lisp that you can implement CL on top of with relative ease, but can fill the space C usually would 19:37:40 kristof: Do you know what parts of a runtime exactly could bloat the runtime? 19:37:42 aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 19:37:56 llvm frontend or similar 19:37:57 s/exactly/especially/ 19:38:34 Forgetaboutit: You're not going to like this answer, but it's simple 19:38:49 Forgetaboutit: When you encode things you want to do in a way that avoids doing what you wanted to do 19:38:52 oGMo: there seem to have been a couple of variations on that theme in the last few years. have you considered implementing CL in maru or similar? 19:39:07 Forgetaboutit: The source of all "bloat" is impedance mismatch between abstraction and implementation. 19:39:20 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5059:a0c0:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 19:39:29 Forgetaboutit: Visitor pattern is the reduce function for languages that think everything needs to live in a class. 19:39:40 tokenrove: i haven't seen references to anything; not familiar with maru. i apparently don't read the right places. 19:40:07 Forgetaboutit: Haskell has some functions like ZipWith which are available in 8 or 9 variations even though what you really wanted were VARIADIC functions that take arbitrary arguments. 19:40:07 kristof: Hm, I see. 19:40:28 oGMo: I've written a new Lisp that you might find interesting, Common Lisp, uses LLVM for back-end, JITs code, interoperates with C/C++/ObjectiveC. 19:40:34 Forgetaboutit: But in the case of the GHC runtime, I don't know enough to say if it's bloated or not but I can tell you that it's probably not. You want to do things, so you do them. Features accumulate. 19:40:42 kristof: Yeah, Haskell doesn't have real variadic functions afaik. 19:40:54 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 19:40:54 drmeister: have you made it public yet? 19:40:57 drmeister: I didn't know it interoperates with ObjectiveC. 19:41:14 drmeister: that^ also i'm actually not looking for a CL, but 19:41:15 drmeister: I wasn't even aware that people who developed in ObjC used LLVM :P 19:41:21 dlowe: Not yet - soon (I say that a lot/sigh). 19:41:37 kristof: er .. osx has been llvm for awhile hasn't it? 19:41:39 kristof: clang is the default compiler under OS X 19:41:39 oGMo: Why not? CL solved every problem reasonably well. Any other lisp will be crippled. 19:41:51 ^ 19:41:58 drmeister: CL has nothing systems-related 19:42:10 Genera called 19:42:17 i.e., i can't write a kernel in CL; i may be able to write a kernel in _a_ CL, but that is obviously not the same thing 19:42:20 Actually, the systems programming in Genera wasn't done in Common Lisp, never mind. 19:42:38 oGMo: you're incapable of writing a kernel in CL, that's just your problem. 19:42:46 Movitz is there for people who can write kernels in CL. 19:42:52 oGMo: So? Hook in your favorate C/C++ libraries. I'm currently hooking in Clang's AST refactoring library to create what I think will be the most powerful C++ refactoring tool in existence. 19:42:58 (plus it has a number of issues besides) 19:43:08 drmeister: i can already do that in SBCL 19:43:20 When sabetts was still around he did a lot of really performant stuff in Common Lisp 19:43:29 related to the movitz that pjb speaks of 19:43:42 oGMo: You can but you have to do a lot of tedious messing around with FFI's 19:44:09 performance is not the issue; however not being able to touch the GC/mm, type inference information, or other things in general is a problem 19:44:13 oGMo: I have a better way - using C++ template programming - the interfaces are built for you automagically. 19:44:27 drmeister: i don't want to use C++ :P 19:44:33 oGMo: you do realize that GC isn't specified or mandated in CL 19:44:50 drmeister: https://github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap <- very non-tediouis 19:44:52 -i 19:45:17 dlowe: that's surprisingly both part of the problem and utterly irrelevant 19:45:46 oGMo: Sure - C is easy to interface to - no name mangling, no overloaded functions, no virtual functions... 19:45:53 my point is that "however not being able to touch the GC/mm" is not an issue 19:46:10 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [] 19:46:18 dlowe: it's an issue if i need/want to and can't in a portable fashion 19:46:36 drmeister: i'm working on C++ as well but i don't have the immediate need to finish 19:47:21 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5059:a0c0:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:14 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:49:37 -!- fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:50:12 I wonder what the CL spec says regarding GC. Do implementations need to gc in a specific way? 19:50:26 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5059:a0c0:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 19:50:47 Forgetaboutit: it doesn't say anything about it 19:51:14 An implementation could, theoretically, make you manually manage all your memory and still be conforming. 19:51:26 dlowe: That's interesting. So in theory, you could compile CL to C with reference counting just fine? 19:51:39 in theory you don't even need refcounting 19:51:46 you can just assume infinite memory 19:51:52 bufferloss [~timestamp@unaffiliated/bufferloss] has joined #lisp 19:52:19 oGMo: A common strategy for some C/C++ guys ;) 19:52:23 you could also add a (free) function 19:52:28 Forgetaboutit: ;) 19:52:43 that would however not be CL proper 19:52:54 no, it would have to be in an extension package 19:53:00 can I link lisp into/against my C++ game engine in a similar manner to lua to allow scripting of game events and AI characters? 19:53:21 bufferloss: try looking at the ECL implementation 19:53:22 bufferloss: ECL, probably; the lisp500 thing mentioned above probably as well 19:53:26 bufferloss: yes, specifically the implementation called ECL. Tat's what it is for. 19:53:27 Forgetaboutit: it says nothing about it. Movitz doesn't have a GC (yet). 19:53:31 bufferloss: ECL allows just that. 19:53:32 great, thanks guys 19:53:33 the latter seemed rather interesting for that kind of thing 19:53:40 bufferloss: not as easily. 19:53:50 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:54:05 bufferloss: ECL might work, but it's buggy and has no maintainer. it's not at the level of lua. (it would be great if someone made it better.) 19:54:24 Xach, ahh, ok thx for the info 19:54:29 Also, guile is explicitly intended to be an language extension library 19:54:45 Forgetaboutit: so in theory, you could compile CL to C, and use BoehmGC!!! 19:54:46 but isn't common lisp and will thus make orphans go hungry and puppies get kicked 19:55:01 isn't that what gcl does? 19:55:20 pjb: I don't know what that is. Can you clarify? 19:56:06 Try to guess! 19:57:26 adityarajbhatt [~adityaraj@122.161.174.98] has joined #lisp 19:57:32 pjb: Manual GC *on steroids*, Wiki says :) 19:57:46 bobbysmith007: re eof, yeah that's on purpose, because of the way the only caller expect an end-of-file condition to be signaled 19:57:54 pjb: Poor man's GC, so to speak? 19:57:56 jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-50-181-199-180.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:21 I am a lisp beginner. I just found movitz (way over my head) but I am curious to know, is it a true Lisp OS? Like, does it just run without any underlying software or other OS? Without a VM I mean. 19:58:36 Or is it still in development and hasn't actually managed to run on x86? 19:58:52 adityarajbhatt: yes, it is the lowest-level software on x86 hardware. you boot into it. 19:58:58 Woah 19:59:16 It's not too hard to read, either. Print it out and read it at lunch for a few weeks! 19:59:36 Forgetaboutit: it's a pretty good GC, but it has to be conservative to interoperate with random C code. 19:59:59 okay that was all just one thing- when I do (length ''''''test) why does it always return 2. I can't quite graps the quote function's working. 20:00:06 alexherb1 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-84-139.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:00:23 adityarajbhatt: because of nesting. 20:00:40 adityarajbhatt: the outermost ' expands to (quote other-stuff) 20:00:54 adityarajbhatt: which is two things 20:00:57 the reader turns 'FOO into (QUOTE FOO), ''FOO into (QUOTE (QUOTE FOO)), '''FOO into (QUOTE (QUOTE (QUOTE FOO))), etc. 20:01:05 I know but...wait i'll organize my doubts and ask. 20:01:36 tokenrove: I don't know a lot about GC. How does replacing malloc() and free() with BoehmGC help? 20:02:00 jsambroo_ [~jsambrook@c-50-181-199-180.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:35 -!- jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-50-181-199-180.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:03:21 Forgetaboutit: you no longer have to call free(). but being conservative means that garbage can potentially stay allocated much longer than it needs to. 20:03:43 Okay so here goes. If I do 'FOO it returns FOO. Alright, but if I do ''FOO it returns 'FOO? Shouldn't it be (quote (quote FOO)) so the inner one evaluates to FOO then goes as an input to other quote which _also_ evaluates to just FOO. 20:03:53 Or does quote have special evaluation rules? 20:04:21 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:05:03 yes, quote is a special form that returns its argument without evaluating it. 20:05:04 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:12 So the second (outermost) quote should return FOO without evaluating. Why does it return 'FOO? 20:06:19 joast [~rick@cpe-24-160-56-92.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:06:50 tokenrove: I always wondered how GC nows when to free memory. Are you familiar with how BoehmGC works and could you explain? :) 20:07:48 -!- STilda|2 [~kvirc@188.162.166.36] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:07:54 adityarajbhatt: quote prevents second quote to evaluate 20:08:17 Okay so I was looking at this the wrong way. I thought the inner stuff would evaluate/process first. 20:08:33 quote prevents inner stuff from evaluating 20:08:39 Forgetaboutit: well, it's been a while since i looked at boehmgc's implementation, but think about it; when is the moment you might be forced to free some memory? 20:08:40 adityarajbhatt: (quote ) or ' will evaluate to 20:09:04 if happens to be (quote ) it will evaluate to that 20:09:14 tokenrove: When you need more but all your memory is already allocated? 20:09:30 But isn't that what happens? (* (+ 1 2) 2) evaluates (+ 1 2) first. So (quote (quote FOO)) should return FOO from inner sexpr and send it as argument to outer quote which returns it as is. 20:09:45 but (quote ...) is as you said special :) 20:09:47 I know what quote does, I can't figure out the order. 20:09:48 Forgetaboutit: right, so in the absence of other scheduling mechanisms, you'd probably free garbage when malloc is called and some threshold is crossed. 20:10:12 adityarajbhatt: quote is treated specially by your lisp 20:10:13 Okay so it is not the norm is it? Other things start from inner sexprs first. 20:10:19 tokenrove: And that's what 'conservative' means, doesn't it? 20:10:30 if your lisp sees '(...) it thinks: 'woah, quote, i wont evaluate that' 20:10:32 adityarajbhatt: the expansion of ' isn't during evaluation 20:11:26 jackdaniel: "by your lisp" means my specific implementation? I am using clisp. You mean this doesn't happen on other imple? And I know _what_ quote does, I just needed to know how and why in that order. 20:11:47 adityarajbhatt: i mean it happens in every implementation, its part of language standard 20:11:56 tokenrove: But how do you make sure to reallocate only chunks of memory that are no longer needed? 20:11:58 Yes that's what I wanted to clarify.. 20:13:20 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:13:38 Forgetaboutit: no, conservative means that if it sees something that looks like a pointer, it has to imagine that it is a pointer, basically 20:14:06 nha [~prefect@koln-5d8153d6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:15 Forgetaboutit: you should check out Garbage Collection by Jones and Lins. it's a great book and it works its way up from the basics of GC to advanced variations. 20:15:42 crixxus [~Rob@173.243.45.74] has joined #lisp 20:16:27 tokenrove: Thanks! I will look into it. :) 20:16:37 -!- gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:17:15 gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:18:19 -!- crixus [~Rob@173.243.45.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:18:36 tokenrove: if that's the one i'm thinking of, i have both editions and they are pretty great 20:18:46 STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.36] has joined #lisp 20:19:49 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@181.30.10.50] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 20:19:54 i dunno about the second edition, but the first edition i have here has some treatment of boehmgc specifically. 20:20:17 i should really get around to picking up the second edition. would you say it's got a lot of useful changes? 20:20:57 it has some new stuff that i don't specifically remember, and actually glosses over some older stuff so it's valuable to have both imho 20:21:25 though perhaps less if you don't need the 2nd edition additions 20:21:52 askatasuna [~askatasun@181.30.10.50] has joined #lisp 20:21:59 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@181.30.10.50] has quit [Client Quit] 20:22:08 is there any treatment of region-based GC? 20:22:18 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 20:23:29 GuilOooo [~GuilOooo@mlir.info] has joined #lisp 20:24:20 like generational/partitioning? 20:24:36 i'm pretty sure the 1st ed covered that though 20:24:41 DeadTrickster [~dead@62.122.188.214] has joined #lisp 20:24:45 like http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/pnkfelix/thesis/ 20:24:57 -!- seangrove [~user@24-182-13-178.static.arhd.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:25:53 i had just flipped past the page on remembered sets (p124) .. so i think it probably at least touches on it, but perhaps not as in-depth as you'd like 20:26:57 there appears to be numerous references to that (no pun intended) 20:26:58 cool. anyway, the first edition doesn't really have anything like that and i think it's an interesting new direction for soft real-time stuff like games. 20:27:06 ah then yes 20:27:31 also a fair bit of realtime coverage but i thought the first touched on that as well .. but like i said different focuses this time around 20:27:50 it's been a bit since i actually read it 20:28:18 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:34:48 -!- jsambroo_ [~jsambrook@c-50-181-199-180.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:36:15 -!- cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:37:47 cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 20:40:07 jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-50-181-199-180.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:31 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5059:a0c0:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:40:51 -!- STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:41:07 ldionmarcil [~louis@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 20:44:53 zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:45 LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 20:48:42 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 20:51:19 I cannot compile the current :qt from ql: "commonqt.cpp:247:58: error: cannot convert char* to const QByteArrayData* {aka const QArrayData*} in initialization 20:51:35 That's with gcc version 4.8.2 (Debian 4.8.2-12) 20:52:25 -!- bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:52:33 commonqt-20131111-git 20:52:53 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:54:10 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-160-3.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:55:06 -!- cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:55:20 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #lisp 20:57:14 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:50 liqu0rice [~niklas@brln-4dbada91.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:58 francogrex [~user@109.128.82.138] has joined #lisp 21:00:41 Hey I just saw that asdf-install was removed from quicklisp. What does that mean? Doesn't asdf-install come by default in standard common lisp? 21:01:15 no. it's an obsolete thing with the same general purpose as quicklisp. 21:01:26 neither is part of the standard. 21:02:36 hmm so there are many books (including pg's ANSI common lisp) which teach asdf should I ignore those parts? 21:02:48 no, asdf-install isn't asdf. 21:02:55 Paul Graham's ANSI Common Lisp says nothing about ASDF. 21:03:05 and if I absolutely _wanted_ to use asdf-install (just for curiousity) could I get it without quicklisp? 21:03:16 oh, I thought it did. I am a beginner, I just glanced through the contents. 21:03:23 joserr [c99b1906@gateway/web/freenode/ip.201.155.25.6] has joined #lisp 21:03:28 You don't want to use asdf-install. You probably do want to use ASDF. 21:04:11 hi guys 21:04:12 I am currently writing a web application using Hunchentoot; but it seems that there is a problem with its ssl support (using easy-ssl-acceptor): for some unknow reason for me, sbcl, the "commom lisp" implementation that I use, grows its memory whitout limit when I make tests with ab. I have tested with hunchentoot:easy-acceptor and this problem with the memory does not occur. Does anyone of you guys had seen this behavior? 21:04:49 I haven't seen it, but if I were you and I wanted to use SSL with hunchentoot, I would put an SSL proxy in front of it and not do SSL on the CL web server. 21:05:02 That is what I did with my SSL website. 21:05:06 It sounds like there's a memory leak in its ssl support. 21:05:14 The SSL proxy I used is nginx. 21:06:37 yes, I resorted to a SSL proxy 21:07:00 if you do that, can you still get at the client cert info, or is it gone by the time it reaches hunch? 21:07:50 I've had poor luck getting openssl to work in CL at all 21:07:52 I don't know. 21:08:09 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-248-115.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:10:19 macdice: you can put i into a header 21:10:26 i=it 21:11:08 dlowe: didn't you look at like 10 CL SSL libraries and found none that work? 21:11:59 foom: no, I messed around with cl-ssl for hours and couldn't get it to work for me in a peculiar circumstance 21:12:36 Oh okay. I vaguely recall some sadness-inducing thread from 5 years ago. 21:13:25 I should try again and see if the situation has mysteriously changed for the better. 21:13:28 of course, SSL is sadness inducing in general, not just in CL 21:13:38 OpenSSL has such a horrible API that nobody can ever use it securely 21:13:54 foom: ergh tell me about it, it's not even really documented 21:13:56 Sadness all the way down. 21:14:04 and has a license which is GPL incompatible 21:14:46 well, someone just needs to build a protocol library on top of ironclad 21:14:52 imho stunnel for legacy stuff and curvezmq for everything else 21:15:05 or, you know, proxy 21:15:12 like i said, stunnel :P 21:15:35 If you're doing http, nginx is likely a better for you than stunnel. 21:16:12 well sure but if you are doing http you probably already have a server to choose from :P 21:27:36 -!- liqu0rice [~niklas@brln-4dbada91.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:28:32 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:30:03 -!- senj [~senj@unaffiliated/senj] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 21:30:03 seangrove [~user@24-182-13-178.static.arhd.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:09 cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 21:30:37 fountain-head [~user@c-1d2de555.026-3-73746f10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:33:45 -!- segv- [~mb@f052013156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:25 -!- aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:35:00 -!- milosn [~milosn@94.12.79.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:35:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:36:06 antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 21:36:10 milosn [~milosn@94.12.79.143] has joined #lisp 21:36:31 segv- [~mb@f052013156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:39:03 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: session corrupted because no hope exists] 21:39:15 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:59 Watcher7 [~w@adsl-108-210-218-82.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:03 -!- vhost- [~vhost@li540-47.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 21:45:08 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:47:19 kliph` [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 21:47:34 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:47:42 -!- scampbell [~scampbell@mail.scampbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:48:56 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:49:45 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:51:39 Argh - what's the *print-XXX* to turn off printing of #1=, #1#? 21:51:44 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 21:51:55 print-circle 21:52:43 Thank you! 21:52:47 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-ksqhumftguwrspjs] has joined #lisp 21:55:05 -!- francogrex [~user@109.128.82.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:01:24 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:01:36 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:02:55 -!- Watcher7 [~w@adsl-108-210-218-82.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: h] 22:04:08 Watcher7 [~w@adsl-108-210-218-82.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:24 -!- Watcher7 [~w@adsl-108-210-218-82.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:05:58 Watcher7 [~w@adsl-108-210-218-82.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:45 -!- cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:06:53 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 22:07:47 liqu0rice [~yaaic@brln-4dbada91.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:10 Bike_ [~Glossina@wl-nat105.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 22:08:23 -!- Bike_ [~Glossina@wl-nat105.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 22:08:47 Bike_ [~Glossina@wl-nat105.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 22:08:57 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:11:11 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:11:21 -!- Forgetaboutit [~sammy@p4FFA7E99.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 22:11:48 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:48 -!- fountain-head [~user@c-1d2de555.026-3-73746f10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 22:14:26 ejbs [~user@h82-117-106-145.dynamic.se.alltele.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:32 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-5d8153d6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:16:58 I did it - and I need to bray - I exposed the Clang C++AST refactoring library within my Common Lisp. Interactive, semantically aware C++ source refactoring using Common Lisp. Here's a sample session: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/761d41a6416e87c716f8 22:17:45 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 22:17:47 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 22:18:36 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p5DDC4465.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:18:56 drmeister: very nice 22:19:13 fortitude: I'm working on something similar for a different language 22:19:22 Which language? 22:19:38 ABL (terrible proprietary 4gl thing) 22:19:48 the aim is mostly to build an abl->lisp cross-compiler 22:19:57 or at least be able to do some analysis tasks 22:21:45 I just looked it up. Ho boy - why do people build things like that? (rhetorical question) 22:22:11 thing is, it has some of the really good ideas from CLIM and a few other places in it 22:22:17 just executed completely backwards 22:22:35 I see you've got comment nodes in your example 22:22:44 I was under the impression that the clang ast didn't store comments 22:23:04 drmeister: brcl is your C++ based lisp implementation? 22:25:26 Yeah - I guess it does have comments - cool. That's clang doing that. 22:25:37 jasom: Yes. 22:26:07 drmeister: I'll have to check that out, I haven't found a good way to handle it yet 22:27:10 I don't know what's going on with the comments - I'll have to look that up. I just looked in the header file and the comments near that field-decl are more extensive than what was spat out for the AST node - but "endcond" is in the comment. 22:28:25 oh btw, I searched how to procude a Java .jar from CL sources with ABCL and didn't find, is that possible? 22:28:29 -!- liqu0rice [~yaaic@brln-4dbada91.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:28:57 senj [~senj@unaffiliated/senj] has joined #lisp 22:29:01 I would like the option to ship something that you would use as java -jar pgloader.jar --verbose file.load, say 22:29:28 dim: does abcl define an asdf operation for that, maybe? 22:29:44 dunno, didn't find when asking google the other day 22:30:03 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #lisp 22:30:16 but well I'm asking just when I need to get AFK and have my sleep... 22:30:19 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-fbnroaaasckdqtvi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:30:20 gn people here ;-) 22:30:25 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 22:31:18 Hooray, I finally have compiling and running code again after a rewrite of a major part of my framework! http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.01.15-233043.png 22:31:25 Today did turn out to be a good day after all. 22:31:26 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-xvlgzcaxxgbhoisq] has joined #lisp 22:31:42 well I found http://www.didierverna.net/blog/index.php?post/2011/01/22/Towards-ABCL-Standalone-Executables which is not integrated yet 22:31:43 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:31:50 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:51 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:32:13 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 22:33:39 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:34:48 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-28.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:31 -!- bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:37:35 Shinmera: What framework is that? 22:38:11 ejbs: My own that I'm now rewriting for the fifth time. This time in Lisp though. 22:38:28 ejbs: Been working on this rewrite for about half a year now. 22:39:15 ejbs: Its main focus is on allowing multiple website "modules" to cooperate in one framework. 22:39:16 Shinmera: Okay, what kind of framework is it hehe :)? 22:39:19 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:39:54 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #lisp 22:40:45 ejbs: Well, as I tried to indicate with the screenshot, yet another web framework. 22:41:03 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 22:41:24 askatasuna [~askatasun@181.30.10.50] has joined #lisp 22:43:13 Shinmera: Does it use Clack? 22:43:23 thepreacher [~thepreach@87.114.134.89] has joined #lisp 22:43:57 pillton [~user@124-171-224-229.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 22:44:03 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:44:07 kristof: I have never heard of that, so no 22:44:39 kristof: it's written completely from scratch, aside from the HTTP handling which is currently done by hunchentoot, but could relatively easily be exchanged by any other server library. 22:45:27 dim: you can modify boot.lisp in the jar I think 22:45:39 Shinmera: Web application abstraction framework, like Ruby's Rack. It's a good idea for Lisp frameworks to base themselves off of Clack now so that people can simply swap out the server or database stuff 22:45:56 Shinmera: Errrr it's more like a Web application framework framework :P 22:46:18 kristof: so basically what mine does as well, kind of. 22:46:52 kristof: the modules can implement "core" framework functionality, so you can easily exchange or add in database stuff or whatever part you want. 22:47:44 dim: just tested it, and it does seem to work; you can put additional .lisp files in org/armedbear/lisp and load them from boot.lisp with (load-system-file) 22:48:01 nha [~prefect@koln-5d8153d6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:29 rbeer [~rich@c-24-6-229-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:42 drmeister: looks like clang only parses documentation-style comments ("///" or "/** ... */") and attaches them to the nearest declaration 22:49:25 -!- thepreacher [~thepreach@87.114.134.89] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:49:47 dim: or compile them and put the compiled .abcl file in them seems to work too 22:50:26 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:59 Shinmera: So go work with Eitarow, then. 22:51:40 kristof: I will definitely have a closer look at Clack. 22:52:21 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:53:09 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-ksqhumftguwrspjs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:53:11 developernotes [~developer@173-29-199-75.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:54:31 Shinmera: 8arrow.org 22:54:44 kristof: already there, but thanks 22:54:53 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-116-73.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:55:04 I think he's working mostly on Lesque, now 22:55:09 The guy has tremendous output, bless him 22:55:19 Oh, he made quickdocs 22:55:58 Well, more reason for me to get back to studying Japanese. And to code more of course. 22:58:06 -!- fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:59:36 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5059:a0c0:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 23:01:23 -!- staykov [~wiggin@cable.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Changing host] 23:01:23 staykov [~wiggin@pdpc/supporter/active/staykov] has joined #lisp 23:02:01 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.162.240.134] has joined #lisp 23:03:06 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-ortpfqhkjwoozpeo] has joined #lisp 23:03:12 effy_ [~x@114.246.81.10] has joined #lisp 23:05:09 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat105.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:05:33 -!- developernotes [~developer@173-29-199-75.client.mchsi.com] has quit [] 23:05:50 -!- effy [~x@123.123.107.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:06:32 vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has joined #lisp 23:07:49 -!- LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:08:41 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 23:09:45 -!- Pullphinger [~Pullphing@12.40.23.68] has quit [] 23:13:30 dlowe_ [dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has joined #lisp 23:14:54 dim: slight correction; for using compiled fasl's you need to load them using load relative to the path *lisp-home* 23:16:03 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:16:20 dsp__ [~dsp@technoanimal.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:08 -!- dlowe [dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:17:08 -!- dlowe_ is now known as dlowe 23:17:11 -!- subtlepath [~walker@subtlepath.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:17:11 subtlepath [~walker@subtlepath.com] has joined #lisp 23:17:11 -!- nightshade427 [nightshade@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fedb:a448] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:17:11 -!- erg [~erg@166.78.160.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:17:11 -!- dsp_ [~dsp@technoanimal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:17:11 -!- nand1 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fasl "test.abcl" add this to the end of boot.lisp: (cl:load (cl:merge-pathnames *lisp-home* "test")) 23:20:06 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:20:20 then you can just drop test.abcl in the org/armedbear/lisp directory in the jar 23:21:39 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 23:22:03 harish [~harish@14.100.132.177] has joined #lisp 23:23:29 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzzzZ] 23:25:46 -!- adityarajbhatt [~adityaraj@122.161.174.98] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 23:25:49 -!- Joreji [~thomas@136-135.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:55 -!- ferada_ is now known as ferada 23:29:27 ckoch` [~ckoch@ne102605l.eng.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 23:30:15 -!- kliph` [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:30:24 pdk [~realname@c-71-236-103-197.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:49 -!- heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has 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[~user@p54AFF092.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:35:58 bah, abcl errors when trying to open a file inside a jar, even with :if-does-not-exist nil 00:37:56 -!- ASau [~user@p54AFF1DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:38:05 Denommus` [~AndChat42@179-199-9-233.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 00:38:06 -!- Denommus` [~AndChat42@179-199-9-233.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Changing host] 00:38:06 Denommus` [~AndChat42@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 00:38:45 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:40:05 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:40:08 hmm, even worse, it's not an error (or any sort of condition) so I can't even ignore it :( 00:40:58 oof 00:41:04 they are good with bug reports!! 00:41:07 -!- rbeer [~rich@c-24-6-229-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:42:19 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.162.240.134] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:42:45 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@32.159.90.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:43:09 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:44:43 -!- jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-50-181-199-180.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:47:40 yeah, but that means dealing with c-l.net's new mailing list system. 00:48:00 I don't think it's hosted on common-lisp.net, but I could be wrong. 00:48:22 I guess it is. 00:49:09 -!- crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:49:24 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 00:49:28 that's the last thing keeping me from making a .jar file with abcl and quicklisp all together 00:49:45 -!- harish [~harish@14.100.132.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:50:36 dim's question from earlier made me think about the possibility 00:53:14 holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] 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[~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 02:11:40 "Clojure supports functional programming, but does not encourage it to the extent that Lisp does." 02:11:51 What does that even mean 02:11:52 uh, what? 02:12:04 kristof: yeah 02:12:11 mathrick: who said that, and where? 02:12:24 http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~matuszek/Concise%20Guides/Concise%20Clojure.html 02:12:38 it's actually talking about Lisp 1.5 or so, of all things 02:12:58 It means that like the rest of the lisps it is a procedural programming language, but supports a functional style of programming. 02:13:19 Plus it has java in there, to balance that out. 02:13:20 to call Lisp 1.5 "functional", and especially to claim it encourages functional programming, is to ignore just about all code ever written in 1.5 02:15:53 I actually arrived there because I was trying to understand why clojure felt like sprinkling let and defn with [] rather than () 02:16:14 mathrick: syntax clarity, I guess 02:16:38 It's possible that the argument list actually is a literal vector. I dunno. 02:16:40 I don't find it in any way clear 02:16:40 -!- chitech [~khuongdp@ami.fw7.opa.tdch.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:17:07 kristof: it is in the sense that it yells at you if you give it a list rather than a vector 02:17:12 mathrick: I don't like brackets but some people do. (defn fun-with-no-args [] (body)) looks ugly, though 02:17:17 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.4] 02:17:31 mathric: Probably for the same reasons as scheme and dylan. 02:17:31 the brackets look ugly always, IMHO 02:17:31 Perhaps you could discuss it in #psychologicalproblemsofclojure 02:18:11 mathrick: You can at least agree that function literals are nicer in Clojure than ANSI standard Common Lisp (nothing a reader macro can't help, though) 02:18:17 Zhivago: I was actually looking at scheme too, and R5RS makes no mention of vectors, they give let syntax with plain, old, hard-working parens 02:18:41 Scheme permits using [] as an alternative to (), iirc. 02:18:57 completely interchangably? 02:19:13 As I recall, although it's possible that I'm confusing it with some popular dialect. 02:19:32 possibly, there are too many schemes for anyone to remember 02:19:48 It allows for greater visual distinction, and I think that's reasonable. 02:20:02 I concur with Zhivago. If it doesn't hurt homoiconicity, why not? 02:20:20 I find it very annoying to read 02:20:27 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.170.20.243] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:20:34 Well... ok. 02:20:56 Well, like they say, intuitiveness is a learned skill. :) 02:21:22 semi-related, is {} used for anything in standard CL? 02:21:45 I can't think of anything 02:21:49 It is explicitly reserved for the user. 02:21:53 ah 02:21:56 thanks 02:22:37 mathrick: C'mon, you at least have to comment on function literals. Doth #(< % 3) not please thee? 02:22:59 Looks almost like perl. 02:23:06 http://l1sp.org/cl/2.1.4 has the scoop 02:23:12 Zhivago: You're the one who likes Clojure. :) 02:23:19 drmeister [~drmeister@166.170.20.243] has joined #lisp 02:23:23 Where did I say that I like Clojure? 02:23:25 kristof: not much more than #L(< !1 3) 02:23:28 !, ?, [, ], {, and } are reserved 02:24:02 Frankly, I don't see much improvement over (lambda (x) (< x 3)). 02:24:02 Zhivago: A while ago, when you were comparing the modern lisps, you called it the most useful, which I took as a sign of liking it. Misinterpreted. 02:24:04 though perhaps _1 is a better name than !1 02:24:34 Zhivago: lambda's too wordy. I use the little pretty-lambda to prettify it in Emacs :) 02:24:46 mathrick: That's a thing?! 02:25:16 there are several packages to implement a nice #L reader macro, yeah 02:25:43 Aha! Reader macros are great. 02:25:50 cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 02:26:08 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-ylheypdjztikdbvb] has joined #lisp 02:26:52 Xach: is it only #{}, or all instances of {}? I can see 2.4.8 reserving #{}, but can't find the section for other occurrences of {} 02:28:02 I just gave the section. 02:28:12 oh sorry, I missed that 02:28:41 -!- zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:29:33 Denommus` [~AndChat42@179-199-9-233.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 02:29:34 -!- Denommus` [~AndChat42@179-199-9-233.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Changing host] 02:29:34 Denommus` [~AndChat42@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 02:29:35 oh wow, Rubout is a constituent? 02:30:09 oh, constituent, invalid 02:31:34 the whole character syntax section is weird, with default-shadowed constituents and whatnot 02:32:17 -!- ckoch` [~ckoch@ne102605l.eng.utoledo.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:33:44 doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-12-236.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 02:34:28 zajn [~zajn@c-50-173-48-75.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:38 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:37:23 -!- cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:39:09 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:39:58 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:41:54 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.170.20.243] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:42:04 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:43:04 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 02:45:57 -!- bufferloss [~timestamp@unaffiliated/bufferloss] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:46:36 prxq_ [~mommer@x2f6cea4.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 02:49:35 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f66474.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:50:45 znode [~Z.Node@61.143.60.83] has joined #lisp 02:53:12 And people look at me funny when I say that the reader is an expedient hack. 02:55:18 crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 02:55:30 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:01:19 -!- Gooder` [~user@218.69.12.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:02:05 znode_ [~Z.Node@61.143.60.83] has joined #lisp 03:02:42 znode__ [~Z.Node@61.143.60.83] has joined #lisp 03:03:15 znode___ [~Z.Node@61.143.60.83] has joined #lisp 03:03:47 -!- znode [~Z.Node@61.143.60.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:04:01 znode____ [~Z.Node@61.143.60.83] has joined #lisp 03:04:37 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-9-163.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:04:38 znode_____ [~Z.Node@61.143.60.83] has joined #lisp 03:05:06 znode______ [~Z.Node@61.143.60.83] has joined #lisp 03:06:23 -!- znode_ [~Z.Node@61.143.60.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:07:05 -!- znode__ [~Z.Node@61.143.60.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:07:39 -!- znode___ 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[~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:14 znode_ [~Z.Node@61.143.60.83] has joined #lisp 03:17:59 -!- znode___________ [~Z.Node@61.143.60.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:20:50 -!- znode [~Z.Node@61.143.60.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:21:03 seangrov` [~user@24-182-13-178.static.arhd.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:21:40 -!- znode_ [~Z.Node@61.143.60.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:22:16 -!- seangrove [~user@24-182-13-178.static.arhd.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:23:22 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:08 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 03:31:01 jleija [~jleija@50.15.142.21] has joined #lisp 03:31:18 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-80-219.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:51 hmmm, for some reason i cannot get rid of an undefined function during a macroexpansion when quickloading my system 03:34:07 Zhivago: you can portably replace the reader, you know? 03:35:38 Is there a Clothure yet? a Clausure? a Closer? a Closeur? 03:36:25 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 03:38:07 -!- nand1 [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:38:26 nand1 [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:25 Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-225-77-108.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 03:41:03 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:48:09 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 03:49:24 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-12-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:49:44 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-12-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:35 Fare: at least 1/4, http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/ 03:53:41 how can i ensure a function defined in the same file as a macro that uses it is defined beforehand? 03:53:58 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has joined #lisp 03:53:59 axion: eval-when 03:54:16 is the proper tool for this, but should be used lightly 03:54:55 syrinx [~quassel@ip68-1-175-223.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:55 -!- syrinx [~quassel@ip68-1-175-223.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:54:55 syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 03:55:01 kpreid: Why lightly? 03:55:02 it makes sense for when it's a function that's sort of part of the implementation of the macro, but if you have a whole lot of machinery to define before the macro you might want to make it a separately loaded file instead 03:55:10 perhaps i'll just through it into my utility functions file despite it being directly related with the macro's file 03:55:17 kpreid: nevermind. 03:55:29 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 03:56:29 evening 03:57:35 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-225-77-108.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:58:41 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:18 -!- pdk [~realname@c-71-236-103-197.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:00:30 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 04:00:40 wheelsucker [~user@ip68-105-66-161.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:46 ubikation [~user@c-67-166-81-173.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:59 hello! I am currently using SBCL and trying to create a lame green thread thing basically. I have a set of objects I want to update, and I want to use sb-ext:timer to interrupt function execution, essentially doing pause/resume. 04:06:27 Have you looked at bordeaux threads? 04:06:29 is that possible? or do I have to assume the cost of an sbcl thread context switch? 04:07:11 Zhivago: no... I should read the manual/source. 04:07:42 Well, you'll probably have to expect the cost of a context switch unless you're transforming all of the code magically into coroutines. 04:07:43 I guess I am just stuck because I know that sbcl has native threads... and that it is hard to emulate the green-thread/interrupts that other languages support. 04:07:46 I think? 04:07:55 But why do you care about the cost of a context switch? 04:08:03 axion: eval-when 04:08:22 axion: http://fare.livejournal.com/146698.html 04:08:25 well I know I should worry about it... but I don't even know how costly it is. 04:08:42 I'm assuming it takes a half second or something like that? 04:08:53 is there a test I can execute on my machine? 04:09:39 Why would a context switch take half a second? 04:09:42 if threads took half a second to switch, nobody would use them 04:09:57 I think that you might want to re-evaluate what you know, and invest in a profiler. 04:10:06 Zhivago: I guess I'm totally wrong. How woul I find out the answer? 04:10:11 Use a profiler. 04:10:34 Zhivago: which profiler? 04:10:49 Whatever comes with the implementation. 04:10:54 I'm using sbcl 04:11:53 http://blog.tsunanet.net/2010/11/how-long-does-it-take-to-make-context.html 04:11:54 ubikation: I did green threads on top of arnesi's call/cc, but that was cooperative multithreading. For preemptive, you need either system support or deep compiler cooperation. 04:12:07 So you're looking at a few microseconds, in linux. 04:12:36 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 04:15:00 also does sb-ext:timer use hpet or is it software based? does a thread set it off? 04:15:24 Fare: thanks for the suggestion! 04:16:11 Zhivago: thanks! I guess sbcl/higer level languages in general magnify the cost of a context switch? 04:16:21 wonder if/guess 04:16:41 I wouldn't expect so. 04:16:54 I'd expect the costs to come from the overhead of thread safety. 04:17:15 e.g., ensuring serial access to variables. 04:17:15 -!- tokenrov1 is now known as tokenrove 04:17:33 ubikation, if you want to reuse my code, dig it out from philip-jose 04:17:43 What problem are you actually trying to solve, btw? 04:17:45 it took me some time to debug it 04:19:01 note that executing code that way is expensive. Your CPU-intensive loops better not be written using the arnesi lisp-in-lisp interpreter. 04:19:55 also, the arnesi lisp-in-lisp is slower for being able to serialize continuations. The screamer one is faster. Dunno what's the offering these days. 04:20:40 Fare, Zhivago: thanks for the pointers! 04:20:58 You're welcome, although you haven't mentioned the actual problem you're trying to solve. 04:21:09 well I'm trying to make a multi-agent simulator 04:21:40 and being able to setup a hardware timer/switch between threads matters 04:21:50 Why? 04:21:56 at least I think it does... I've been tryin to learn to program for a while 04:22:00 Shouldn't agents be reacting to messages? 04:22:31 In which case all you need to do is to have the agent receive a message, emit messages, and stop, and then go to the next agent with pending messages. 04:22:52 I don't see what pre-emption has to do with that problem. 04:22:55 Zhivago: I have to limit the computation of each agent and switch between them. 04:23:13 Why do you need to limit the computation of each agent? 04:23:20 each are basically running a predictive model of the world and other agents... so it has to be halted 04:23:42 Zhivago: because it's a modeling function 04:23:50 But that predictive model will be limited by incoming data ... 04:24:19 right, which is why I have to be able to restart the agent after a specified time 04:24:44 ubikation: erlang approaches this by having a limited number of reductions that can occur before a process switch, but really most of the time well-placed yields will do fine if you're in control of the agent code. 04:24:44 basically it's kind of like the ooda loop but in software... but I can't do it without timers 04:25:04 So, why can't you just wait for them to complete processing the incoming data? 04:25:06 frx [frx@93-141-67-193.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 04:25:27 -!- frx [frx@93-141-67-193.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has left #lisp 04:25:38 Zhivago: because the processing will never be complete... I think? 04:25:47 -!- joe9 [~user@ip24-255-250-24.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:25:49 Are there any Pretty Good thread-safe/concurrent queue implementations out there? 04:25:54 usually when you actually want to use green threads, it's because you want the benefits of cooperative threading. as soon as you start reinventing too much of what the kernel scheduler does in your own code, you start wanting scheduler activations and other stuff, and it doesn't really pay off compared to using native threads. afaik. 04:26:19 It's basically a function that will update a data structure... and after a specified time be paused and then the agent will be restarted 04:26:28 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-89-63.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:26:52 ubikation: so just yield to your scheduler each iteration of the loop 04:27:31 Why would the processing never be complete if the input data is limited? 04:28:41 tokenrove: is there an example of yield in a library I could look at? 04:28:45 tokenrove: depends on how much knowledge you can leverage into scheduling your green threads 04:29:04 Quadrescence, I believe lparallel should have one, though I had to dig under the interface to expose it to my satisfaction. 04:29:19 I think it does too 04:29:57 or rather it was the messaging layer that I had to expose a bit, not the underlying queue. 04:30:31 vkrest [~vkrest@173.252.71.189] has joined #lisp 04:31:18 p_l: of course; naively applied, you could thrash back and forth between the scheduler and thread every byte processed or similar. 04:31:26 in general, I'm tackling a problem I don't really understand, and I don't really understand how cl might help or limit me. 04:31:49 so I'm really just doing reading and trying to setup little examples to look at how stuff works 04:32:30 ubikation: in CL? hmm, i'm not sure (but what fare was talking about would probably have an example), but isn't there an extensive discussion of conversion to continuation-passing style in On Lisp? it might talk about building a green thread scheduler, i don't remember 04:32:34 n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has joined #lisp 04:32:48 Well, CL's lack of well defined threads or coroutines may hinder, but it sounds like your problem is over-specified and under-described. 04:33:29 i mostly do this kind of thing (cooperative multitasking) in C or erlang, and just use native threads and various thread pooling techniques in CL. 04:35:39 ubikation: ok, it looks like there's an example of CPS conversion, and a simple scheduler built on top of that, in On Lisp. chapters 20 and 21 should be useful to you. 04:37:09 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 04:38:07 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 04:38:22 Probably over-engineered and ridiculously slow. 04:38:25 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 04:38:57 ubi needs to understand why he wants to interrupt the agent's computation, and how it should be continued afterward. 04:39:09 And why it is not i/o bound. 04:40:53 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.15.142.21] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:41:35 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:43:48 Good morning everyone! 04:43:56 I know that drewc uses the continuation monad, which he made available in LIL 04:44:25 and recommends that for lightweight threading. 04:47:36 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-12-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:50:45 -!- dkordic [~danilo@93-86-153-166.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:53:51 -!- ubikation [~user@c-67-166-81-173.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:54:55 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@173.252.71.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:03:26 dkordic [~danilo@109-93-45-16.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 05:04:17 Fare: What do you mean for lightweight threading? Green threads? 05:08:33 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:17:55 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.68.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:19:41 Hanli [~user@140.242.214.2] has joined #lisp 05:22:05 -!- Hanli [~user@140.242.214.2] has left #lisp 05:23:03 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-223-59.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:24:20 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-223-59.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:41 kristof, yes. 05:25:52 cooperative green threads, even. 05:27:21 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 05:28:16 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 05:28:46 patbarron [~pat@lectroid.com] has joined #lisp 05:32:37 Hanli [~user@140.242.214.2] has joined #lisp 05:34:09 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-12-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:07 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:37:03 Harag 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joined #lisp 13:44:11 sohail [~sohail@184.175.12.220] has joined #lisp 13:44:11 -!- sohail [~sohail@184.175.12.220] has quit [Changing host] 13:44:11 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 13:44:58 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-12-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:09 -!- ThatOtherPerson [~ThatOther@unaffiliated/thatotherpersony] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:50:29 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:50:32 -!- aska-away [~askatasun@181.30.10.50] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 13:50:50 askatasuna [~askatasun@181.30.10.50] has joined #lisp 13:51:41 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-12-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:51 Joreji [~thomas@136-135.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 13:52:57 segv- [~mb@2a02:8109:8100:e1c:2ad2:44ff:fe04:f5ab] has joined #lisp 13:53:15 How do I make SLIME load REPL from contrib? Adding it to slime-contribs doesn't seem to work. 13:53:30 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-42-194.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:54:07 do you use quicklisp-slime-helper? 13:54:18 jackdaniel [~jack@hellsgate.pl] has joined #lisp 13:54:29 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:54:33 Nope. Should I? 13:54:45 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@206.225.132.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:55:29 -!- clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:55:37 well, I use it and it just works ;-) 13:56:09 I use: (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf slime-sprof slime-compiler-notes-tree slime-hyperdoc slime-mrepl slime-indentation slime-repl slime-media)) 13:57:16 If I have a list like this: (setq my-list '(my-symbol 1)), what would be the syntax to assign the second value in the list to the symbol that's the first value in the list? (setq (car my-list) (nth 1 my-list) doesn't seem to work. Do I need a macro? 13:57:18 ogamita: it says SLIME-SETUP is now deprecated. Old version worked but new one just ignores it. 13:58:40 OldContrarian: (let ((my-list '(my-symbol 1))) (progv (list (first my-list)) (list (second my-list)) (eval (first my-list)))) 13:58:55 OldContrarian: notice that PROGV makes a dynamic binding. 13:59:12 hitecnologys: Let's shoot the moving targets! 13:59:28 Ogamita: Ok thanks, I'll try. 13:59:45 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:00:24 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 14:01:07 dim, ogamita: well, it's kinda weird but it works just fine with q-s-h and old config. 14:01:48 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 14:02:10 -!- _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:03:13 drmeister [~drmeister@166.170.20.195] has joined #lisp 14:03:17 zygentoma [~kvirc@s213-103-194-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 14:03:30 _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has joined #lisp 14:04:00 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:04:14 vantage|home [~vantage@113.Red-88-7-36.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:09 vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:11 dim, ogamita: OK, looks like it works completely. Thanks for help. 14:05:18 -!- Kromitvs [~quassel@mcqueen.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07:13 Kromitvs [~quassel@mcqueen.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 14:07:33 KDr2 [~KDr2@222.90.226.89] has joined #lisp 14:07:51 -!- elfenixtorres [~vantage@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:08:11 yrk [~user@c-24-91-25-190.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:24 -!- yrk [~user@c-24-91-25-190.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:08:25 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 14:08:42 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 14:08:57 vantage|2 [~vantage@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 14:09:41 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:12:16 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:27 araujo [~araujo@190.73.46.113] has joined #lisp 14:12:27 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.46.113] has quit [Changing host] 14:12:27 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 14:12:29 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@113.Red-88-7-36.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:12:33 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:14:01 -!- harish [~harish@175.156.126.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:17:46 SHODAN [~shozan@c-33b1e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:17:47 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.170.20.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:17:51 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@c-33b1e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Changing host] 14:17:51 SHODAN [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has joined #lisp 14:18:13 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:20:55 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:21:33 On occasion, it helps to realise that you're an idiot going about things all the wrong ways. 14:21:45 *OldContrarian* bonks self on head. 14:22:05 -!- copec [copec@schrodbox.unaen.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:22:59 -!- bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:24:13 OldContrarian: sometimes you believe you're an idiot, just because you don't know better, but actually you're not. 14:24:15 So what did you realize? 14:24:24 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 14:24:54 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:25:18 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:26:19 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:26:46 harish [~harish@175.156.87.7] has joined #lisp 14:27:19 copec [~copec@schrodbox.unaen.org] has joined #lisp 14:28:07 Ogamita: Well, you're more right than you think - it turns out that I was an idiot for thinking I was an idiot. 14:28:13 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #lisp 14:28:32 Because I was right the first time. 14:29:10 maybe you're wrong this time 14:29:29 dlowe: Are you gonna go all Inception on me? 14:29:51 it's idiocy all the way down 14:30:04 -!- Kromitvs [~quassel@mcqueen.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:30:27 If you want an objective assessment, show us your internal state :-) 14:30:46 cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 14:30:59 OldContrarian: (set (first my-list) (second my-list)) 14:31:11 Idioception, so to speak. 14:31:11 set is a thing... who knew? 14:31:18 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 14:31:26 Kromitvs [~quassel@mcqueen.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 14:31:52 dlowe: Whoa. So, like... setq, but "set", not "set quoted"? 14:32:04 cory` [~ckoch786@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 14:32:10 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-144-157.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:32:16 schoppenhauer [~schoppenh@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:32:18 -!- cory` [~ckoch786@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:32:29 (setq a b) = (set (quote a) b) 14:32:42 dlowe: Right. 14:32:53 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 14:33:10 initially there was only set, but wanting to set something quoted was so common that it became it's own thing 14:33:17 its 14:35:04 I'm considering never touching setq again, and only using "set '" to avoid confusing myself. 14:35:24 actually, you should pretty much always use setf 14:35:55 dlowe: I'm sure, but I'm still trying to get a hang of the basics. 14:36:20 that doesn't mean studying the four elements to start your study of physics 14:36:30 joe9 [~user@ip24-255-250-24.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:43 Fair enough. 14:36:45 -!- schoppenhauer [~schoppenh@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 14:37:12 schoppenhauer [~schoppenh@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:37:17 But for now, I'll just try to get this thing I'm working on working =) 14:38:39 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:39:21 Woot, it works! 14:39:29 Thanks for your help, guys. 14:40:05 -!- ogamita [~t@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40:13 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 14:40:14 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 14:40:24 sure thing 14:40:57 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:41:07 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 14:42:10 Oh thank god, symbols can contain Swedish characters (едц), otherwise my whole scheme here would have falled apart. 14:42:48 Symbols can contain all possible Unicode characters. 14:42:53 (I'm finally managed to get symbols named after persons to contain a struct representing that person) 14:42:55 Even Chinese. 14:42:57 hitecnologys: provided the implementation supports it. 14:43:08 Shinmera: yeah, sure. 14:43:17 Interesting. Lisp is more foriving than the languages I'm used to. 14:43:47 Well, some languages from C-family also support Unicode. 14:43:52 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 14:44:00 For fun, perhaps I should spell my symbol names with katakana (Japanese phonetic characters for non-Japanese names and concepts)? 14:44:07 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 14:44:20 OldContrarian: You certainly may. 14:44:27 There's no required encoding support for the standard, so it can be whatever your implementation provides, right? 14:44:33 I bet there's lots of Japanese CL code that does just that. 14:44:46 I doubt ssh and emacs would cooperate though. 14:44:48 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 14:44:56 Also kanji and hiragana. 14:45:00 emacs works with unicode very well. 14:45:03 (I'm using emacs in text mode over ssh) 14:45:05 OldContrarian: I don't see why not. 14:45:19 the only problem may be your font. 14:45:19 OldContrarian: ssh is mostly transparent with regards to unicode terminal stuff. 14:45:43 Wow, really? I should try, one second... 14:45:45 Use a terminal that has some provisions for displaying unusual characters. 14:46:12 (like substituting a glyph from another typeface when it's missing in the currently selected one  urxvt does that) 14:46:35 OldContrarian: Works just fine for me http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.01.16-154608.png 14:46:38 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:46:56 Nope, on my current setup, it seems non-ascii characters just turn into a box. Not that it matters... 14:47:06 ThatOtherPerson [~ThatOther@unaffiliated/thatotherpersony] has joined #lisp 14:47:09 OldContrarian: that's a font problem then 14:47:26 Shinmera: Ah, you're probably right. 14:47:37 OldContrarian: unless your terminal app butchers the encoding 14:48:21 -!- bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:34 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:46 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #lisp 14:49:18 ahungry_ [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 14:50:02 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:19 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:54:47 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 14:55:06 -!- sellout- [~Adium@75-166-123-23.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:55:18 -!- ThatOtherPerson [~ThatOther@unaffiliated/thatotherpersony] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:00:34 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:02:32 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:04:28 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 15:04:38 BaconOverflow [uid17800@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xojowuxqfdfucwwp] has joined #lisp 15:06:03 vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:51 vkrest_ [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:17 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.68.3] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 15:09:15 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:04 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 15:10:22 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:10:42 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.68.3] has joined #lisp 15:10:47 -!- Kromitvs [~quassel@mcqueen.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:45 -!- vkrest_ [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:14:01 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 15:14:18 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-42-194.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:24:46 developernotes [~developer@173-29-199-75.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:25 -!- Joreji [~thomas@136-135.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:25:58 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-42-194.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:29:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:30:05 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:30:11 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:30:27 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 15:30:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.185.228] has joined #lisp 15:30:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.185.228] has quit [Changing host] 15:30:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:32:28 I haven't checked in a long while, but do we have any CL implementations targetting .NET/CLR? 15:32:51 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-68-160.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:33:36 i tend to sketch things out in C# if i'm going to use C++, i use lisp when i want think better about things 15:34:29 i sketch things with perl sometimes if i'm going to use C 15:34:55 mathrick: there's uabcl, but I don't know what state it's in 15:35:24 fortitude: is that a port of ABCL, or the ABCL+IKVM hybrid someone made run a while ago? 15:35:33 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:35:41 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:35:51 ah, port 15:36:20 https://code.google.com/p/uabcl/source/list <-- not that current :\ 15:37:13 nope 15:37:45 it's not CL, but apparently rich hickey wrote a lisp for .net before he did clojure 15:38:35 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:38:47 would bindings to the mono libs be feasible ? 15:39:19 or wait..' 15:40:44 sellout- [~Adium@c-67-176-62-204.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:34 fortitude: you mean other than FOIL? 15:41:53 FOIL being a bridge to CL rather than a Lisp in its own right 15:42:42 do they generate CIL and run it with mono ? 15:42:56 zophy: unsure, calling into .NET/Mono is a rather murky area. They used to claim it's perfectly possible and even easy back when Mono was starting, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually do that 15:43:09 it's CLR calling out to C, not the other way around 15:43:37 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 15:44:34 I wonder if it would be easier to make a CL-to-C# source to source compiler 15:44:52 mathrick: the one I found was dotlisp, actually (there's also l-sharp, but that's neither a hickey thing nor CL) 15:44:55 and how painful that'd be to use in practice 15:45:09 mathrick: doesn't rdnzl call into .net? 15:45:30 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:505d:2560:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45:55 fortitude: I believe it works by setting up a bridge DLL in .net which is then used for communication, much like FOIL did 15:46:06 but I wouldn't bet on my understanding 15:46:32 mathrick: last I heard it was a C wrapper around the C entry points to the .net runtime (which apparently exist) 15:46:51 I assumed those C entry points were what you meant by "calling into"... 15:47:30 yeah 15:48:27 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:48:49 do we have working c-l.net mailing lists yet? 15:48:51 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:49:31 -!- cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:49:53 antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 15:49:56 fortitude: I'd need to investigate RDNZL more and also see how well it fares in the current .net versions 15:50:09 the whole MSFT ecosystem is unbelievably complex and confusing 15:51:23 https://web.archive.org/web/20090425003640/http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/rdnzl-devel/2008-February/000192.html <-- usefully enough, the attachment wasn't archived 15:51:52 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 15:52:12 klrr_ [~klrr@88.129.151.215] has joined #lisp 15:52:15 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7069781 15:52:38 -!- movbh [~movbh@tmo-107-148.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org] 15:52:56 a blog post about Hy, a lisp that compiles to python ast and works on 2.x, 3.x and pypy 15:54:17 interesting 15:54:40 well now, if you wanted to be really interesting you could run that on cl-python 15:54:41 maybe 15:54:48 heh 15:55:11 i see a reference where it says that rdnzl uses CFFI 15:55:40 the easiest way to figure out rdnzl is going to be poking through the source, I think 15:55:58 I did some of that a few months ago, which is the only reason I know anything about the dll :/ 15:56:22 -!- klrr_ [~klrr@88.129.151.215] has left #lisp 15:56:35 lumen [5f1997fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.25.151.252] has joined #lisp 15:56:38 zophy: that makes sense if it's using the C entry points into C# 15:56:51 I didn't know that part was that well-specified in CLR 15:57:12 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 15:57:14 fortitude: heh 15:57:37 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:52 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:57:52 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 15:58:30 http://docs.hylang.org/en/latest/language/internals.html#hy-macros <-- eww clojure syntax 15:58:54 I don't get why they needed to change the splicing syntax to ~foo rather than ,foo 15:59:36 slightly better visibility, maybe 16:00:01 again matter of taste, but I find , more readable than ~ 16:00:23 the defmacro/g! form is a neat idea though 16:00:32 that would prevent ~ from being a constituent character, wouldn't it? 16:01:23 you mean using it for splicing? Perhaps, but I don't think clojure/Hy pay a lot of attention to the CLHS definition and concept of constituents 16:01:46 right, I meant if CL were to suddenly switch from , to ~ 16:01:51 not that there's any reason to do so 16:02:02 actually, you can go a step further than defmacro/g! does 16:02:20 PLOT, for example, will deep-walk the code and analyze the variables for usage 16:02:23 no marking necessary 16:02:32 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ucrwpa1-fs-37-161.bulk.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 16:03:08 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ucrwpa1-fs-37-161.bulk.ucr.edu] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:03:25 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ucrwpa1-fs-37-161.bulk.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 16:03:41 fortitude: link 16:03:42 ? 16:03:52 mathrick: defmacro/g!  isn't that something Doug Hoyte proposed in let over lambda? 16:03:54 and what interesting breakages does that run into? 16:04:09 (i remember seeing something very much like it) 16:04:11 antoszka: very likely, they use a NIF example straight out of LoL 16:04:18 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 16:04:32 Yeah, I think those samples are more or less direct ports of the LoL stuff. 16:04:35 mathrick: http://users.rcn.com/david-moon/PLOT/page-19.html (I think there's a more detailed description on other pages) 16:05:25 thanks 16:05:42 I saw a talk about clojure's core.async the other day, and apparently both it and c# macro-ize their code to data-driven state machines that they then run 16:05:58 I'm wondering if that fundamentally differs from cl-cont's approach 16:06:24 anybody know if that sort of state machine differs from conversion to CPS? 16:06:51 -!- segv- [~mb@2a02:8109:8100:e1c:2ad2:44ff:fe04:f5ab] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07:12 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:08:27 vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:52 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 16:08:53 senj [~senj@unaffiliated/senj] has joined #lisp 16:11:00 -!- CrazyEddy [~unhopeful@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:11:24 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:13:01 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:13:02 i think that's fundamentally the same as CPS but i can imagine how it could be more efficient than the obvious CPS implementation, depending on how much other state the continuations have to keep track of. 16:13:33 vantage|home [~vantage@113.Red-88-7-36.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:42 tokenrove: I would have thought CPS would be faster (assuming good code generation), since the compiler gets a crack at it 16:14:24 the compiler gets a crack at it either way, if your to-state-machine and to-cps transforms are implemented as macros. 16:14:57 tokenrove: yes, except that in the case of core.async, the macro produce very low-level instructions related to the state machine 16:15:05 but obviously if you're using cps as the basis of your compiler, there are lots of opportunities to make the output efficient. 16:15:10 so I suspect the normal compiler really doesn't have much to work with 16:16:23 -!- vantage|2 [~vantage@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:16:47 I saw that core.async provides it's own version of map and some other higher-order functions, so the state machine has the same issues with lambdas that CPS does 16:18:10 vantage|2 [~vantage@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:18:12 cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 16:18:59 segv- [~mb@2a02:8109:8100:e1c:2ad2:44ff:fe04:f5ab] has joined #lisp 16:19:28 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p578FC80C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:24 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 16:21:27 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@113.Red-88-7-36.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:22:01 apocalyptic-lexi [~quassel@24.181.99.89] has joined #lisp 16:22:54 -!- loz1 [~maxvel@188.225.33.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:23:02 Joreji [~thomas@136-135.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 16:23:11 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:24:58 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:02 -!- joe9 [~user@ip24-255-250-24.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:29 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:27:10 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 16:29:23 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 16:32:15 joe9 [~user@ip24-255-250-24.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:32 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:33:51 frx [~a@93-141-67-193.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 16:35:05 Kromitvs [~quassel@mcqueen.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 16:35:17 normanrichards [~textual@mobile-166-147-064-104.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:05 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 16:36:38 Is there a mcclim git repo somewhere? 16:40:04 Xach: antifuchs has a mirror-ish thing at https://github.com/antifuchs/mcclim 16:40:14 don't know if that's authoritative enough for your purposes 16:40:57 *Xach* wonders who speaks for mcclim these days 16:42:13 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:42:38 kristof [~Kristoffe@162-236-113-137.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:44 Xach: judging by the mailing lists, no one ): 16:45:09 You could appoint/annoint Mathrick - and see if anyone objects... 16:45:53 splittist__: hey now, isn't he supposed to be doing stuff for this whole clim3 business? 16:45:54 splittist__: if you really wanted to... but beach would be a more productive choice I think 16:46:11 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:46:14 he has actual experience and contribution history with mcclim 16:46:39 fortitude: circuitously at the moment, but indeed I am! 16:46:45 But I suspect Xach wants something done, and I'd rather not distract beach from Building A Better Future (TM) 16:47:09 splittist__: and what makes you think I'm a choice to Get Something Done with McCLIM? :) 16:47:17 I'd like to see mcclim get working double-buffering, myself... 16:47:47 I really wonder how far/close to McCLIM CLIMatis will end up when everything's said and done 16:47:56 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:48:04 beach has been converging on a lot of choices which mirror those of the CLIM2 spec 16:48:30 mathrick: I haven't read all of the clim2 spec, but when I checked the clim3 draft a little while ago it seemed an awful lot shorter 16:48:33 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@181.30.10.50] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 16:48:33 so there's that 16:48:45 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ucrwpa1-fs-37-161.bulk.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:48:46 fortitude: yes, because unlike CLIM2, it's mostly not done yet 16:48:54 vi1 [~vi1@93.92.216.186] has joined #lisp 16:49:16 as long as we're speculating, I can pretend it's because it has a more useful (and smaller) set of primitives, can't i? 16:49:35 I actually would like to stop using CVS upstream sources in quicklisp, and mcclim is one of them. There are 23 others. 16:49:56 fortitude: well, that is actually one of the aims, yes 16:50:55 Xach: out of curiousity, does cvs pose a problem for quicklisp maintenance? 16:50:58 23 ?! 16:51:42 fe[nl]ix: is that low or high for you? 16:52:13 it's non-zero 16:52:59 -!- Kromitvs [~quassel@mcqueen.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:53:49 fortitude: it is a hassle. cvs on clnet is down sometimes. i can't make tarballs without it being online. 16:54:24 I am thinking about using lisp for an Operating Systems and Systems Programming course. Does anyone know of any good libs for calling Linux system calls? 16:54:34 -!- senj [~senj@unaffiliated/senj] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 16:54:46 -!- normanrichards [~textual@mobile-166-147-064-104.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:54:47 when repo.or.cz is down, I can't fetch updates, but at least I can make release snapshots. 16:55:19 cory786: traditionally, lisps like to pretend there is no system, so cffi might be the best you can do (though there is doors for some subset of win32 stuff...) 16:55:24 senj [~senj@unaffiliated/senj] has joined #lisp 16:55:30 ?! 16:55:40 Xach: makes sense, I hadn't thought of the distributed bit being useful for reliability reasons 16:55:52 fortitude: That is the opposite of my experience. Most Lisps have a rich way to interact with the system, and cffi "just" unifies the interface. 16:56:01 paul0 [~paul0@186.214.10.57] has joined #lisp 16:56:21 cory786: cffi, there are also some POSIX wrappers here and there 16:56:29 percopal [~percopal@63.65.76.38] has joined #lisp 16:56:32 Xach: I think cory786 was thinking of something a little higher-level than just defining c wrappers 16:56:35 but I could be wrong 16:56:38 iirc sbcl has some nice packages for linux syscalls 16:56:49 I understood it to mean what was written, "calling linux system calls". 16:56:58 if you don't mind writing non-portable code. :) 16:57:06 That's not POSIX, or high-level. 16:57:28 Xach: the trouble with doing that is that you have to define each of those calls (and the structs they use, and the structs /they/ use, and so on) 16:57:30 It's trivial to e.g. add support for epoll with a few pages of sb-alien code. 16:57:32 cory786: you'll probably want to use a higher-level library, but just so you don't get the wrong impression from this conversation, most lisps will provide their own interface to syscalls 16:57:34 which can turn into a fair bit of work 16:57:51 well perhaps POSIX calls would have a better description 16:58:27 -!- vi1 [~vi1@93.92.216.186] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 16:58:43 so would it be best tot start with the sbcl manual? 16:59:21 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ucrwpa1-fs-37-161.bulk.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 16:59:28 fortitude: if you just want to wrap calls in general, c2ffi + cl-autowrap will do all the heavy lifting, though you have to manually group bitfields 16:59:37 (shameless promo) 16:59:40 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@62.182.195.200] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 16:59:40 cory786: the manual does have a useful section on the sb-posix package, yes 16:59:45 cory786: what do you ultimately want to do? 16:59:53 fortitude, just found it ;) 17:00:07 oGMo: I'm not familiar with those two, I'll have to take a look 17:00:09 there ARE posix libraries _and_ existing syscall wrappers though afaik 17:00:20 vi1 [~vi1@93.92.216.186] has joined #lisp 17:00:20 oGMo: there's also cffi's groveller, though it requires a C compiler 17:00:39 http://cliki.net/IOlib-POSIX <-- *sigh*, if you ever make a note that X is obsolete, you should always point out to replacements that should be used instead 17:00:45 fortitude: c2ffi requires clang, but only for the author, not users 17:00:45 fe[nl]ix: wait, isn't that your library? 17:01:13 Xach, implement posix shell utilities, I think we are required to write a shell interpreter, and the prof has given us the go ahead for any language ;) 17:01:36 ah 17:01:55 sounds like fun! good choice. 17:01:57 let's bring Lisp down to the level of Unix shell? 17:02:01 but yeah 17:02:13 if I had to, I'd probably go with CL too 17:02:46 mathrick: that's from before I merged everything into iolib 17:03:13 I used to have several disconnected libraries 17:03:16 fe[nl]ix: you should always say why things are obsolete and what the non-obsolete way is, though 17:03:35 fe[nl]ix: FYI, the systems are beirc, clazy, cl-bibtex, cl-cli-parser, cl-enumeration, climacs, closure, cl-smtp, cl-syslog, cl-unification, hyperspec-lookup, imago, lambda-gtk, mcclim, misc-extensions, oct, pal, pg, phemlock, rucksack, slime, s-xml, zip, and zlib. 17:03:39 i guess i can update slime shortly! 17:03:39 because it's really not obvious what "this library is obsolete" is supposed to mean to the potential user 17:04:02 it means "don't use it" 17:04:18 fe[nl]ix: and use what instead if I'm looking for a POSIX groveller/wrapper? 17:04:24 that's the interesting part 17:04:35 if you don't answer it, saying "don't use it" is useless 17:04:42 fiveop [~fiveop@p5DDC4465.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:04:55 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.122.49.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:04:56 mathrick: you're wrong 17:05:09 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:05:24 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:05:39 fe[nl]ix: uh, no. That page doesn't explain ANYTHING in the way of why I'm not supposed to use it. It gives me no useful information, just a decree that leaves me no wiser than before I read it 17:05:49 that's what I'm trying to communicate 17:06:05 it's not supposed to leave you wise 17:06:11 ... 17:06:36 Kromitvs [~quassel@mcqueen.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 17:07:17 fe[nl]ix: that's just idiotic, and it looks like you're trying to make people ignore that bit 17:07:39 it's not 17:07:44 yes it is 17:07:59 you don't explain shit and leave me with no useful information 17:08:21 I look for POSIX, find that, then I'm told "don't use it" with no pointers for further information 17:08:40 -!- easye` [~user@2a01:4f8:200:4310::30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:44 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 17:08:45 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ucrwpa1-fs-37-161.bulk.ucr.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:08:53 easye [~user@2a01:4f8:200:4310::30] has joined #lisp 17:08:55 askatasuna [~askatasun@181.30.10.50] has joined #lisp 17:09:01 does it explode? Is it replaced by something else? Has the approach proven fundamentally unsound and I should be looking at doing something entirely different instead? 17:09:07 MusangKing [~CatMtKing@138.23.59.87] has joined #lisp 17:09:35 I decided to abandon that package 17:09:43 that's all you need to know 17:09:54 fe[nl]ix: is there any replacement for it? Or is that functionality effectively gone? 17:09:57 use it at your own peril 17:10:26 I don't even remember what it used to do 17:10:29 fe[nl]ix: it's not all, because it still doesn't tell me if there's anything to use INSTEAD of it in any way or shape 17:10:48 fe[nl]ix: so it's basically done and gone, with no replacement to speak of? 17:10:50 you're using the wrong search algorithm 17:10:52 -!- MusangKing [~CatMtKing@138.23.59.87] has quit [Client Quit] 17:11:04 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@138.23.59.87] has joined #lisp 17:11:33 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:12:35 I'm curious. What are you talking about? 17:13:26 fe[nl]ix: can't you answer a simple yes/no question? 17:13:40 fiveop: mathrick and fe[nl]ix were, uh, discussing whether "this package is obsolete" is a sufficiently informative message to leave on an abandoned project 17:14:14 scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 17:14:54 that's way better than hundreds of ghost projects, where you're not even sure :) 17:15:20 -!- vi1 [~vi1@93.92.216.186] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17:10 mathrick: a project isn't supposed to list all competitors/alternatives, as you expect, because it would be insane 17:17:12 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 17:18:21 every time a new project X is created, that would require all its alternatives' pages to be modified to back-link to X 17:18:33 it's *insane* 17:18:53 -!- joe9 [~user@ip24-255-250-24.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:56 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:21:07 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@128.120.118.101] has joined #lisp 17:23:54 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:24:23 eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #lisp 17:24:31 -!- rk[htp] is now known as rk[] 17:24:38 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 17:25:26 If a project is abandoned because the author decided something else was preferable, she might usefullly leave behind a note that says "Obsolete, use XYZ instead." I guess that isn't the case you're talking about though. 17:26:21 unless, you know, XYZ becomes obsolete 17:26:32 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:02 until you get a Turing-complete chain of obsolescence that can compute (theoretically) new libraries 17:27:07 in general it would be nice to know why something was obsoleted, but obviously having to maintain that info forever is unreasonable 17:27:22 WHY something is obsoleted would indeed be excellent information 17:27:23 which one of youze is sw2wolf on github? 17:30:25 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:505d:2560:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 17:30:47 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:36 ThatOtherPerson [~ThatOther@unaffiliated/thatotherpersony] has joined #lisp 17:35:22 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:35:37 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 17:36:03 mathrick: a project isn't supposed to list all competitors/alternatives, as you expect, because it would be insane <-- no, what's insane is your obstinate insistence on NOT giving any useful info no matter what, even when I attempt to pry it out of you to put it on the page 17:36:15 you certainly had reasons to abandon it 17:36:19 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.4] 17:36:33 which means you can put those reasons in a sentence on two next to the obsolescence notice 17:37:02 nobody's asking you to list all competitors, simply say WHY it's obsolete and what possible roads there are for a would-be user if any 17:37:54 because "it's obsolete and I made a much better alternative you can get here" or "I rolled it back into IOLib proper" is completely different from "I dropped the project because I have no time to work on it and I no longer need to do what it did" 17:38:20 and it's ridiculous that you go to such length to avoid answering a simple yes/no question that'd shed some light on the issue 17:38:47 -!- antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:38:55 nobody's asking you to maintain a complete list of alternatives forever; and I have no clue where you even got such a notion 17:39:49 *sentence or two 17:40:50 -!- arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:41:29 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-67-176-62-204.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:42:04 vantage|home [~vantage@113.Red-88-7-36.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:27 sc00fy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 17:43:46 If I have a list '(1 2 3 4 5 6) and I want to extract just the elements that satisfy a test and create a new list with that subset - how do I do that? 17:44:45 drmeister: remove-if-not 17:45:10 Thank you! 17:45:17 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:21 sorabji5` [~user@204.77.5.137] has joined #lisp 17:45:24 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:25 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:45:55 sellout- [~Adium@66.185.108.211] has joined #lisp 17:45:57 -!- vantage|2 [~vantage@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:46:09 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:46:09 -!- sorabji5252 [~user@ratio.devvz.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:46:25 -!- sorabji5` [~user@204.77.5.137] has left #lisp 17:46:52 isn't remove-if-not deprecated in favour of remove-if with an explicit :test not(blah) or so ? 17:47:04 oleo: that would just be remove 17:47:09 err yes sorry 17:47:14 but "deprecated" in the CLHS is kind of funny 17:47:27 considering it's nearly 20 years old :p 17:47:45 and we still see the remove-if-not... 17:47:45 I don't think remove-if-not is going away any time soon 17:47:46 lol 17:48:00 Well, it did the trick. 17:48:04 I prefer the terms "SELECT" and "FILTER" myself 17:48:20 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@113.Red-88-7-36.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:48:21 but they didn't ask my opinion 17:48:29 dlowe: the trouble with filter is that sometimes it's hard to remember whether it's an inclusion test or an exclusion test 17:48:37 Bummer that Monetzuma got remove from Quicklisp. 17:48:44 yes, filter for is select, select against is filter.... 17:48:49 if you know there is also SELECT, then it disambiguates 17:48:51 *easye* will have to use Lucene. 17:48:53 elfenixtorres [~vantage@113.Red-88-7-36.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:01 this is true 17:50:09 -!- sc00fy is now known as scoofy 17:51:06 zajn [~zajn@c-50-173-48-75.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:50 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 17:53:46 REMOVE-IF-NOT is technically redundant, but it still adds some clarity to the code, which is why it's seen continued use despite being formally deprecated I believe 17:53:54 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:5401:d519:8ba8:2cc8] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:54:11 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:5059:7064:4150:b824] has joined #lisp 17:54:41 easye: we should save montezuma 17:54:45 shouldn't be that hard 17:54:57 -!- Pullphinger [~Pullphing@12.40.23.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:56:36 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:57:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:58:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:59:03 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 17:59:04 nyef [~nyef@c-50-157-244-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:42 percopal_ [~percopal@63.65.76.38] has joined #lisp 18:01:00 -!- percopal [~percopal@63.65.76.38] has quit 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[~AndChat42@179-199-9-233.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 18:36:49 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37:11 cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 18:37:46 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 18:38:24 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:41:34 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.75.191] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:41:52 spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has joined #lisp 18:42:58 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/session] has joined #lisp 18:43:07 nipra [~nipra@122.177.75.191] has joined #lisp 18:43:59 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/session] has quit [Changing host] 18:43:59 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-byydoebfdhngtwid] has joined #lisp 18:45:39 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.75.191] has quit [Client Quit] 18:45:48 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has joined #lisp 18:46:25 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:36 Pullphinger [~Pullphing@12.40.23.68] has joined #lisp 18:47:49 -!- karswell [~user@87.113.62.57] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:48:07 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 18:48:38 karswell [~user@87.113.62.57] has joined #lisp 18:48:53 It would be trivial 18:52:19 Do I need something special to load cffi on abcl? I get "Don't know how to REQUIRE JSS" and "Dont' know how to REQUIRE JNA" 18:52:23 developernotes [~developer@173-29-199-75.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 18:52:53 Alfr [~Unknown@f053069162.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:53:11 jasom: I think you need abcl-contrib.jar in the CLASSPATH? Not sure. 18:53:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:54:09 luis: thanks 18:54:19 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:59 luis: any reason I can't just throw the two together into a single jar? 18:56:02 jasom: you probably can. 18:57:44 malbertife [~malbertif@host252-167-dynamic.211-62-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:57:52 hmm, either I setup the CLASSPATH wrong or it doesn't work; I do see jss in the .jar file... 18:57:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.185.228] has joined #lisp 18:57:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.185.228] has quit [Changing host] 18:57:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 18:58:47 jasom: maybe try with add-to-classpath ? 18:58:54 -!- kristof [~Kristoffe@162-236-113-137.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:00:12 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:00:41 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:48 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:00:56 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01:26 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #lisp 19:02:09 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:02:09 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 19:02:43 Xach: sounds like a project for github/sharplispers 19:03:05 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:03:26 how to say to (format t "~a" :symbol) to preserve ':' ? 19:04:02 nug700 [~nug700@71-223-14-137.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:06 Xach: that's assuming that lemonodor has abandoned it? 19:04:34 slyrus: lemonodor wasn't maintaining it, leslie p. "skypher" polzer was 19:04:51 and has he abandoned it? 19:04:58 he did not respond to my requests for maintenance over multiple months 19:05:13 maybe he's just busy, but it is in limbo as far as I can tell 19:05:30 are there specific maintenance items needed? 19:05:34 lemme guess... asdf. 19:05:39 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 19:06:28 i linked to it in the quicklisp blog update. it's an aref arg transposition. 19:06:35 basically an (aref i a) should be (aref a i) 19:06:48 sbcl's improved type inference caught it and refuses to compile it without a full warning. 19:06:58 cool 19:07:08 does not build on sbcl plus unmaintained equals negative quicklisp 19:07:12 score one for asdf and my apologies for unjustly blaming asdf 19:07:25 score one for sbcl, that is 19:07:46 I made a pull request that restores buildability 19:08:07 I think this would be a candidate for sharplispers but they/we don't have a great track record of actually doing anything to the projects under that umbrella 19:08:52 But this could be an opportunity to at least apply some patches until someone wants it more 19:09:52 it's never too late to mend a bad reputation 19:09:59 Xach: what exactly is sharplispers? there doesn't seem to be a description anywhere... 19:10:30 jackdaniel: ~S 19:11:24 fortitude: the idea is to have a group of people doing some level of maintenance on otherwise orphaned projects. 19:11:37 not taking over full maintainership, but not letting useful projects bitrot outright 19:12:32 vkrest [~vkrest@173.252.71.189] has joined #lisp 19:16:47 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:06 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 19:27:16 cabaire [~nobody@p5DCD3541.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:27:21 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:28:23 fortitude: so it turns out that in Hy at least, , is a tuple constructor. So (, x y) is the same as python literal (x, y). That still doesn't technically make it impossible to use , for backquote splicing, but explains it somewhat. Although I think it simply taking most syntax from clojure is a more important reason 19:30:14 Xach: whats your OOTD? 19:30:51 robiv: I don't know what that means, sorry. 19:30:54 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-28.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:03 Xach: outfit of the day 19:31:13 it usually has a hashtag in front of it 19:31:14 Object Oriented Technical Design. 19:31:23 robiv: I don't know what that questions means, sorry. 19:32:05 what web frameworks would you guys say are great to use with common lisp 19:32:51 robiv: define "web framework" 19:33:16 jasom: how are you setting CLASSPATH? 19:33:19 i was thinkin about maybe hunchentoot and with-html-output 19:33:30 luis: java -cp... 19:33:43 web server, tool for producing HTML templates, way to interface a webpage with serverside code 19:33:52 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 19:33:53 written in lisp, of course 19:34:19 robiv: then yeah, hunchentoot is good; depending on how exactly you want to dynamically generate html, there are about a dozen html generators with different pros/cons 19:34:55 robiv: the good news is that they are close enough that it's not too painful to swithc between them if you find a weakness in what you are using. with-html-output is a popular one, so not a bad place to start 19:35:16 mathrick: apparently clojure doesn't use commas because they treat it as whitespace (to make e.g. a vector work as both [a b] and [a, b]), which might be why they went with ~ 19:35:31 oh, that is probably why 19:35:39 which is pretty silly, IMHO 19:35:59 mathrick: what does [] represent in hy anyway? AFAICT it's arbitrary whether a special form wants [] or () 19:36:26 jasom: I tried to divine that yesterday with clojure, and couldn't find any explanation or scheme!