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has joined #lisp 09:20:29 karupanerura [~karupaner@www13355ui.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:21:34 ssqq: because of a net split. 09:21:37 ggherdov [uid11402@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kevtazlzzwdkpcgt] has joined #lisp 09:22:17 happens when a server gets full and another has to jump in..... 09:22:45 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:24:27 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:03 the message like it should be ignored with user. Could I ignore it with config of irc clients? 09:26:14 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:28:26 agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:34 you should maybe hide part/joins 09:29:43 rather then ignoring server messages 09:29:58 the server message alone is not that big/long 09:30:08 it's the list of users it shows which rejoin, that's huge 09:31:42 -!- codygman [~cody@pool-173-74-42-45.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Using Circe, the loveliest of all IRC clients] 09:32:41 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:34:10 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 09:35:38 Is there a fix for the SBCL bug which spews "undefined function" warnings for functions which are defined later in the file? 09:35:59 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:36:16 huh ? 09:36:35 you can ignore warnings, but it's not a bug 09:36:46 tis not haskell, my friend 09:36:53 one fix is to rearrange the functions 09:37:47 Perhaps the fix is to get a real lisp like Allegro. 09:38:39 devon``, how are you compiling? 09:38:45 SBCL docs mention a bug 677779 fix but it only works with --script 09:39:37 -!- Hydan [~hydan@ip-89-103-110-5.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:39:46 did you load the file ? 09:39:47 Mere LOAD, perhaps I'll have to go with ASDF or something. 09:40:19 devon``: iirc, under LOAD evaluation rules, "undefined function" warnings are definitely correct 09:40:35 wait, you loaded it and then edited the file afterwards ? 09:40:57 devon``, how about a (load (compile-file ..)) ? 09:41:20 --script defers warnings because it is expected to act like a "program" 09:42:17 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:42:25 LOAD on source code iirc *should* complain about undefined... but it's possible it was left up to implementation 09:45:25 Warning that a defined function is undefined may not be forbidden but it is unwise. 09:45:41 devon``: when the warning is fired the function isn't yet defined 09:46:24 This is Lisp, not C. 09:46:36 exactly 09:46:56 Fortunately you can write a function LOAD-WITHOUT-WARNINGS if you want. 09:47:26 That would eliminate real warnings along with bogus ones. 09:47:56 devon``, you can write it so it excludes warnings 09:49:11 Clearly SBCL already has code to eliminate these bogus warnings - I just want to know haw to benefit from it. 09:49:29 use compile-file ? 09:49:38 devon``: load sequentially executes each form it encounters in the file named by filespec. If the file is a source file and the implementation chooses to perform implicit compilation, load must recognize top 09:49:43 level forms as described in Section 3.2.3.1 (Processing of Top Level Forms) and arrange for each top level form to be executed before beginning implicit compilation of the next. (Note, however, that 09:49:47 processing of eval-when forms by load is controlled by the :execute situation.) 09:49:49 note *sequentially* 09:51:17 -!- __main__ [~main@50.240.210.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:51:49 so when first defun is executed, the second is not yet evaluated, thus a function defined later is not yet defined 09:52:10 nor is the load operation finished yet 09:52:35 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 09:52:38 and there is already code to prevent premature bogus warnings 09:52:43 yes but that is inconsequential 09:52:56 it doesn't matter when LOAD is done or not, it matters when things are evaluated 09:53:19 __main__ [~main@50.240.210.73] has joined #lisp 09:53:46 compilation and compilation-units are used to tackle the issue you're talking about, where things aren't evaluated first, they're compiled 09:53:59 -!- ics [~ianclarks@ool-18bf6d86.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:54:03 and by doing that, you can do sorts of analyses like undefined functions until the end of compilation 09:54:36 do not confuse definition vs. evaluation 09:56:36 devon``, the definition of LOAD makes it very clear: it will execute a form completely before moving on to the next form 09:56:54 even if LOAD chooses to compile, it will compile and execute a form, then move to the next one and compile & execute 09:58:25 wrap the load in a with-compilation-unit 10:00:13 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 10:03:46 thanks, that's helful! 10:03:59 er, helpful 10:06:17 ehu [~ehu@109.32.218.166] has joined #lisp 10:07:44 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 10:11:38 -!- setmeaway [stemearay@119.201.52.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:11:54 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:12:20 Munksgaard [~philip@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:13:22 devon``: you can forward declare functions with: (declaim (ftype function f g h)) ; and even be more precise on the function type. 10:18:55 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 10:19:09 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp 10:21:20 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 10:23:59 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 10:24:59 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:33:20 Ewww! LOL, I may do it anyway but SBCL LOAD is clearly violating 3.2.2.3 Semantic Constraints 10:33:20 ... 10:33:20 *A call within a file to a named function that is defined in the same file refers to that function, 10:33:20 yacks: unless that function has been declared notinline. The consequences are unspecified if functions 10:33:20 yacks: are redefined individually at run time or multiply defined in the same file. 10:34:40 Hmmm, irc did something really bizarre to the CLHS text 10:37:03 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 10:42:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:44:40 I don't know what you you think that's proving 10:45:14 most importantly, it's not a list of constraints on an implementation 10:45:31 but a list of constraints on the program 10:45:43 Uh, it proves the CLSH authors had good taste? 10:46:04 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:46:12 *dropping bits like wild* CLHS 10:46:29 alezost [~user@128-70-194-197.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:49:15 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp 10:49:48 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 10:52:05 -!- ssqq [~songzhiqu@112.90.222.135] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:58:35 swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has joined #lisp 11:01:15 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:01:23 Thanks jsnell_ for the WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT tip - separated the spam from the valid errors nicely. 11:02:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:03:43 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:03:53 seangrov` [~user@46.218.35.67] has joined #lisp 11:04:34 kdas__ [kdas@nat/redhat/x-gzvoemnrtaauzild] has joined #lisp 11:05:08 gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 11:06:40 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:06:56 -!- kdas__ is now known as kushal 11:07:04 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-gzvoemnrtaauzild] has quit [Changing host] 11:07:04 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:08:14 Munksgaard [~philip@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:09:38 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp 11:15:13 stilda [bca2a62e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.162.166.46] has joined #lisp 11:15:53 Hi 11:16:19 I am trying to (asdf:load-system "cl-opengl") and get a lot of 11:16:37 a lot of errors "STYLE-WARNING Undefined alien ..." 11:17:06 Can someone give me an advice how or where should I look to fix this? 11:17:58 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:18:38 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:19:46 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp 11:20:02 -!- agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:21:08 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 11:21:43 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:22:57 stilda: It may not need a fix. STYLE-WARNINGs are often exactly what it says on the tin. 11:24:59 breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:45 stilda: For example, a STYLE-WARNING saying that a function call to an undefined function is compiled is perfectly ignorable if you know that by the time the function will be actually called, it will have been defined. 11:26:34 gleag: nevertheless some hundred style warnings _are_ annoying; i'd like to know more about this as well (i.e. for cl-gtk2 and a whole bunch of other libraries which load native stuff) 11:30:39 I'm not an SBCL expert - doesn't SBCL emit these warning in conjunction with lazy alien resolution? 11:31:04 It would be kind of an equivalent of the undefined function warning for alien functions. 11:31:47 gleag: it seems something wrong with these warnings because I can not run cl-glut-examples. It shows frozen window and then "Can not find function glClearColor" in the debugger. 11:31:52 yep. i think so too 11:33:45 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:34:22 arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 11:34:32 stilda: Is the glut C library actually loaded in the Lisp process? 11:34:36 genkinodenki [~migrayn@dsl-vntbrasgw1-50dc7f-98.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 11:34:58 Or rather the opengl client library itself... 11:38:14 -!- swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:38:16 stilda: and you could post more info (error message, warnings, etc.) on paste.lisp.org or so 11:38:17 -!- stilda [bca2a62e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.162.166.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:39:28 swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has joined #lisp 11:39:58 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp 11:41:49 gleag: i had lots of those warnings after starting a saved image with cl-gtk2 loaded, but everything worked, so as of yet i haven't bothered to actually look into it 11:42:54 but. i would really like to load a library without warnings, so that actual errors are visible 11:43:55 ferada: What kind of warnings exactly? The style warnings should be compiled time, I don't see how you'd get them by reloading an image. 11:44:43 Actual errors are generally visible by virtue of not being labeled as "warnings". :) 11:45:00 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:45:05 ASau` [~user@p5797FD11.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:45:15 the undefined alien ones i think, but i'll have to dig that up 11:46:09 -!- ryankarason is now known as rk[wrkwrkwrk] 11:46:38 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 11:46:44 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:47:02 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:47:55 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:48:02 davazp [~user@80.31.10.120] has joined #lisp 11:48:59 -!- ASau [~user@p4FF97651.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:49:45 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 11:50:08 ferada: Keep in mind that reloading an image does not magically rematerialize "exterlnal" resources - open files with seek positions, open network connections, and, of course, external libraries. Special provisions have to be taken to take care of all of these. 11:50:36 -!- devon`` [~devon@2001:470:8b2d:7fc:a800:ff:febf:caf9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:53:34 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:53:49 hello everyone 11:54:38 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:56:00 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:31 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:57:41 harish__ [~harish@113.210.43.50] has joined #lisp 12:00:00 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp 12:00:09 Bike [~Glossina@stephdining-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 12:00:31 walter [~walter@c-98-216-15-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:39 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 12:00:39 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:00:53 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 12:01:29 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01:55 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tsch] 12:04:14 aaxd [~user@zuzu.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:05:18 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 12:06:50 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:07:55 __stdout [~Nico@p549F7199.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:08:48 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 12:09:54 -!- seangrov` [~user@46.218.35.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:10:11 nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has joined #lisp 12:10:23 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Client Quit] 12:11:49 stilda [bca2a62e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.162.166.46] has joined #lisp 12:14:54 -!- davazp [~user@80.31.10.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:20:40 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 12:21:05 devon`` [~devon@2001:470:8b2d:7fc:a800:ff:febf:caf9] has joined #lisp 12:22:00 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:14 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:22:14 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 12:23:23 seangrov` [~user@46.218.35.67] has joined #lisp 12:24:09 -!- harish__ [~harish@113.210.43.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:25:02 -!- seangrov` [~user@46.218.35.67] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:27:40 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 12:29:57 bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has joined #lisp 12:31:09 -!- stilda [bca2a62e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.162.166.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:32:48 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:32:56 nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has joined #lisp 12:33:53 <|3b|> hmm, just missed stilda :( that cl-opengl problem should be fixed in git 12:33:56 -!- antgreen_ [~green@dsl-173-206-173-230.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:36:15 malkomalko [~malkomalk@66-234-38-99.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:50 benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f230:f867:b7b2:9e43:4ef2] has joined #lisp 12:39:53 Is there a "trivial-introspection" library around? Something that would at least tell me the lambda-list of a function on any implementation that supports retrieving that? 12:40:25 patrickwonders: I think you can grab some stuff from swank 12:40:28 clhs f-l-e 12:40:28 function-lambda-expression: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm 12:41:06 Um wow thanks time to reread all of the HyperSpec. 12:42:10 Hmm (function-lambda-expression #'position) returns (values nil t position) on SBCL for me. 12:42:38 The 'NIL' isn't that useful. 12:42:57 No, function-lambda-expression is not required to do anything particularly useful. 12:43:06 patrickwonders: you asked "any implementation that supports retrieving that" 12:43:16 When I think about doing that, I think of swank. 12:43:46 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:56 *nod* looks like SWANK is the way to go. thanks... 12:44:26 only that you can't use swank as a library 12:44:44 it doesn't have any resemblance of a stable API 12:44:50 jdz: but sb-introspect can retrieve that information so it's odd that (function-lambda-expression ) cannot in SBCL. 12:45:14 sb-introspect can't retrieve lambda expressions 12:45:38 ikki [~ikki@201.141.68.152] has joined #lisp 12:45:55 patrickwonders: It probably can, given that (describe #'position) works. 12:46:12 Not lambda expressions, sorry.. lambda lists: (sb-introspect:function-lambda-list #'position) 12:46:15 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:48:15 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:49:06 -!- swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:49:43 agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:55 rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-245-130.uio.no] has joined #lisp 12:50:31 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:50:40 swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has joined #lisp 12:50:43 -!- swflint-tab 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[~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:49:05 -!- cruxeter1us is now known as cruxeternus 13:49:43 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:51:36 teggi [~teggi@113.173.4.29] has joined #lisp 13:53:18 kiuma [~kiuma@83-103-19-212.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:55:17 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:55:42 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:57:01 Hello. 13:57:30 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:57:36 Good morning. 13:57:48 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:00:32 I can not run any example from cl-glut-examples. I get an error that "glClearColor function is not found". I use SBCL-1.1.8 and latest cl-opengl provided by quicklisp. When I (asdf:load-system "cl-opengl") I also get a lot of "STYLE-WARNINGS undefined alien ...". Can anybody help me to find the solution? 14:00:57 <|3b|> stilda: should be fixed in git, https://github.com/3b/cl-opengl/issues/42 14:01:13 <|3b|> stilda: which should be in next quicklisp 14:01:20 stilda: windows? 14:01:32 I had a similar problem on windows.. 14:03:02 Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has joined #lisp 14:03:05 *|3b|* needs to leave, but hopefully that is enough info for someone else to help if needed 14:03:51 Is there a folding mode for Emacs that works well with Paredit? I'd like to fold all top-level forms and reorder them easily. 14:08:52 I use hs-minor-mode to fold blocks with hs-hide-block -- but that doesn't keep blocks hidden after yanking 14:08:57 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 14:08:58 thank you |3b| 14:09:27 this seems to be the answer 14:09:38 add^: yes, Win 7 14:09:47 ah ok :-) 14:09:52 Good to know :-) 14:10:14 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 14:11:10 -!- stilda [bca2a62e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.162.166.46] has left #lisp 14:11:16 gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:56 gr4nf [~gr4nf@190.86.177.25] has joined #lisp 14:12:39 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:57 ck``: Thanks for the suggestion! Maybe I can hack myself a function together that does transpose-sexps + hs-hide-all. That would be good enough for what I'm trying to do right now. :) 14:13:37 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.166.46] has joined #lisp 14:14:55 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 14:17:52 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.166.46] has left #lisp 14:17:57 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.166.46] has joined #lisp 14:18:28 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 14:19:06 Yup, that does it. Yay. 14:19:15 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:21:02 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 14:21:55 patrickwonders: you can also make any implementation support retrieving that. Have a look at: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/ 14:22:31 hi 14:22:32 Of course, for CL operators, that would mean reloading the implementation after IBCL 14:22:33 ogamita: hi 14:22:36 hi 14:23:51 ogamita: interesting... 14:24:02 _d3f [~gnu@ip-static-94-242-252-67.as5577.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:02 patrickwonders: perhaps there's a compilation-time option (when compiling sbcl), to keep all the function-lambda-expressions? Otherwise perhaps this could be added easily? 14:28:15 ogamita: with the IBCL approach, I still wouldn't be able to retrieve the lambda lists of CL functions. So, I think I'll stick with introspecting in implementation-dependent ways. From the looks of the swank stuff, it's really pretty easy on the impls that I use most. 14:29:15 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-245-130.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Client exciting.] 14:30:50 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-edckbawyjxxqafyo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:31:31 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-ocqdpsmlnmdyzvuy] has joined #lisp 14:31:36 ubolonton [~user@115.79.207.194] has joined #lisp 14:34:14 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tsch] 14:34:20 Aramur_ [~arare@213.Red-79-156-36.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:26 -!- Aramur [~arare@213.Red-79-156-36.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:34:33 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:34:39 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34:46 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 14:34:55 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp 14:35:25 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:36:07 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:37:26 -!- bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:38:20 -!- arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:38:25 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.226.243] has joined #lisp 14:39:40 -!- Aramur_ is now known as Aramur 14:39:48 patrickwonders: you could merge IBCL with SBCL so it keeps all the definitions from generation time. 14:40:00 -!- devon`` [~devon@2001:470:8b2d:7fc:a800:ff:febf:caf9] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:40:26 -!- tic [~tic@c83-248-1-14.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:40:42 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@83-103-19-212.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:41:04 ogamita: he can't, as ibcl is gpl 14:41:09 tic [~tic@c83-248-1-14.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:42:36 sellout- [~Adium@c-67-176-62-45.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:01 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-170-78-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 14:44:37 Let's GPLify SBCL! 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ZZZzzz] 18:03:23 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:10 seangrov` [~user@46.218.35.67] has joined #lisp 18:06:26 -!- eeezkil [~eeezkil@unaffiliated/eeezkil] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:06:42 -!- seangrov` [~user@46.218.35.67] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:08:48 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 18:09:10 -!- desophos [~desophos@n138h11.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:09:21 didi` [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 18:10:32 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.111] has joined #lisp 18:10:51 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:11:05 eeezkil [~eeezkil@unaffiliated/eeezkil] has joined #lisp 18:12:25 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:12:41 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 18:13:49 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:15:04 whist [~whist@c-98-232-204-76.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:09 -!- walter [~walter@c-98-216-15-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:17:12 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:17:18 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp 18:17:50 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 18:18:23 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 18:19:08 Freeway- [~Freeway@546AAAD8.cm-12-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 18:19:22 goood day 18:19:26 -!- high-embowed55 [~high-embo@78.129.150.164] has quit [Quit: high-embowed55] 18:19:55 what is a compiler of lisp 18:20:12 ccl,ecl,gcl,clip,sbcl,cmucl 18:20:12 Freeway-: A compiler that compiles lisp? 18:20:18 yes 18:20:24 s/clip/clisp/ 18:20:27 i dont know what is lisp in real but 18:20:33 i cod ein C# 18:20:37 i wonder what is lisp 18:20:42 and what you can do with it 18:20:45 Freeway-: A programming language. 18:20:56 Freeway-: It's a general purpose language. 18:21:01 what means this didi` 18:21:07 Freeway-: So you can do whatever. 18:21:16 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:21:30 it's a building tool! 18:21:38 can you make webroser in lisp 18:21:44 webrowser exus me 18:21:50 Freeway-: You can do /anything/. 18:21:54 you can convert between from/to languages with it! 18:22:02 generate.... 18:22:05 uhmm sound hard 18:22:11 i should check a youtube movie 18:22:13 about this lisp 18:23:12 but 18:23:15 lisp dude 18:23:21 is difrent yes then C# 18:24:04 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:45 ??? 18:24:47 didi` 18:24:58 it is 18:25:00 Freeway-: I don't know C#, I'm afraid. 18:25:18 what is diffrent between lisp and othe things 18:25:22 i dont get it bro 18:25:41 eheh 18:26:11 :) 18:26:14 the difference is, lisp is better than other things 18:26:25 is diffecult to learn 18:26:32 dude i am beginner in programming 18:26:38 i just start whit C# en C 18:26:44 but i getting better 18:26:54 maybe if you used less "dude" and "bro", it'll be easier to learn 18:27:03 yes yes 18:27:34 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:27:53 -!- gleag_ is now known as gleag 18:28:05 Freeway-: Do you happen to hail from California? 18:28:17 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:02 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 18:29:19 dude 18:29:23 i want make trojans 18:29:24 exploits 18:29:26 virus 18:29:28 i want take revenge 18:29:32 to some things my friend 18:29:38 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: Zzzz] 18:29:45 i got a debt 18:29:51 i need to breka in to the network 18:29:54 and delete my name dude 18:30:11 1 day there wash a guy in here 18:30:20 he made a virus it load in the goverment network 18:30:28 *ski* . o O ( "Enter is not punctuation. Please do not send every clause (or even character!) as a separate message, it inhibits readability." ) 18:30:31 100.000 papers 18:30:33 get delete 18:30:51 those 1000.000 papers wash to be send to the people who need to pay for drifing to red 18:30:56 or pissing on the street 18:30:59 -!- fe[nl]ix has set mode +b *!~Freeway@*.ziggo.nl 18:30:59 -!- Freeway- [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has been kicked from #lisp by fe[nl]ix (Freeway-) 18:31:09 Ah... 18:31:13 this is not the invite to criminal behaviour channel! 18:31:18 bleh 18:31:21 lol 18:33:47 sdemarre [~serge@194.65-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 18:36:00 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@p5DC62D0F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:40:08 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p5DC62D0F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:42:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-185-245.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:46:15 ...cause had he hailed from California, substance abuse would have been a reasonable explanation... 18:48:06 -!- alioui [~alioui_aj@197.1.29.87] has left #lisp 18:49:00 eli [~eli@racket/eli] has joined #lisp 18:50:40 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:56 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:53:00 hi there. could anyone tell me, why f1 and f2 show different results? the only difference is the let in f2: http://paste.lisp.org/display/138893 18:54:33 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 18:54:51 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:56 JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:56:12 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:56:17 hiroakip: an example ? 18:56:48 alioui [~alioui_aj@197.1.29.87] has joined #lisp 18:58:47 hiroakip: Could that have something to do with the destructive nature of SORT? 18:58:54 Applied to your list? 18:59:32 sure, i didn't know sort ist destructive. this seams to be a good explanation 18:59:40 here is the full file: http://paste.lisp.org/display/138895 18:59:43 Sort will return the list correctly sorted, but the original variable may be unusable for measusing the length of the original list. 19:00:06 ah, o.k. this explains it! thank you 19:00:10 I think gleag got it. 19:00:53 (sort (copy-list list)...... 19:01:12 maybe better if you want to retain the original.... 19:01:17 is there another sory, which isn't destructive? 19:01:38 (setf stringlist (sort stringlist)) ? 19:01:48 oder is it on me to write a function, which copies the list first? 19:02:00 ya 19:02:05 so copy-list it 19:02:17 and apply sort on that rather... 19:02:38 (setf new-list (sort (copy-list list)......) 19:02:38 oleo: perhaps (concatenate 'vector list) would have been better. 19:02:46 hmmmm 19:03:00 Instead of (loop for i from 1 to (length stringlist) collect i), you could also just use (loop for i in stringlist collect i) 19:03:06 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-jcetxomzbncfdnor] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:03:08 oleo: the length of the temp copy isn't modified, it ought to be a single allocation, etc. 19:03:10 Althought I'm not sure waht the point of such a loop would be, since you're just getting loop back 19:03:12 i woder why it is implemented this way. when i would have to write a sort function i would use AVL-Tree, so i would have to copy the whole list in every way 19:03:22 oh wait nevermind misread 19:03:26 you are iterating your count my bad 19:03:36 hiroakip: the next time please annotate the initial paste 19:03:40 there's a button for that 19:03:48 o.k. i will 19:04:33 -!- Aerolitus [~Aerolitus@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:04:50 This you can do though, (loop for x from 1 for y in '("a" "b" "c") collect x) 19:04:54 Hmm, I wonder if dynamic-extent would work for the temp copy? 19:05:14 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE640CC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:05:26 if you want to return them to the outside scope ? 19:06:07 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 19:06:24 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:07:01 Scratch that, that would probably require a temp variable. 19:07:06 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp 19:07:23 oleo: You don't return the sorted result anywhere. :) 19:07:44 *gleag* wonders if there is any CL implementation that uses scratch heaps for dynamic extent allocations... 19:08:02 ya, i said setf it 19:08:49 Ah, I didn't notice that... 19:08:53 (setf sorted-list (sort (copy-list list).....) 19:09:08 if that fits.... 19:09:19 haven't looked at your paste even.... 19:09:27 dunno what you're doin there..... 19:11:14 oleo: Apparently, hiroakip is solving the Euler Project puzzles: http://projecteuler.net/problem=22 19:11:20 ah 19:11:22 nice 19:11:32 eheh 19:11:46 applied maths! fewww 19:11:46 yes, to learn lisp at the same time ;) 19:11:57 Do you need to do (sort (copy-list list)) vs just (sort list) if you are simply using the return of sort for your setf? 19:12:14 it isn't that hard, until problem 25, i did not look any further until now 19:12:16 there's no need for a setf if you just use sort 19:12:27 it will modify your original list 19:12:38 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 19:12:49 otherwise if you want to retain the original do the sort operation on a copy 19:13:33 thanks 19:13:35 ianclarksmith [~ianclarks@ip-64-134-45-10.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:30 no problem, you're welcome! 19:15:22 setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.138] has joined #lisp 19:15:30 -!- Aramur [~arare@213.Red-79-156-36.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 19:16:06 hiroakip: I've randomly picked problem 48 and it doesn't look all that scary. 19:16:09 -!- ianclarksmith [~ianclarks@ip-64-134-45-10.public.wayport.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:16:33 it sort of screams "modular arithmetics", that's all. 19:17:32 Oh, so they have 435 of them now? O_o; 19:17:51 yes, it is really a lot 19:18:21 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:18:40 and it is fun to write small solutions for the problems there 19:19:14 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-cldsckxsndgwrvtq] has joined #lisp 19:19:29 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:52 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: lifetime lost by panic reaction] 19:20:34 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.195.55] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:20:47 nipra [~nipra@122.177.195.55] has joined #lisp 19:21:33 -!- ggole [~ggole@220-253-230-239.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 19:22:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-188.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:24:15 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.195.55] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:24:23 nipra [~nipra@122.177.195.55] has joined #lisp 19:24:38 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 19:27:32 -!- alioui [~alioui_aj@197.1.29.87] has left #lisp 19:30:14 -!- davazp [~user@80.31.10.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:31:38 cory786 [~cory@PAT98.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 19:33:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-188.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:34:45 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-xnbphvbtqfxhitkt] has joined #lisp 19:35:15 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-194-197.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:43:55 -!- swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:44:37 swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has joined #lisp 19:46:20 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 19:48:22 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:48:54 statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-229-153.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:05 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:52:55 francogrex [~user@109.133.128.86] has joined #lisp 19:53:08 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:53:09 see something cool!: http://paste.lisp.org/display/138897 19:54:39 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 19:55:25 axd [~user@zuzu.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:56:30 Nice. Now use CFFI to run it inside lisp. 19:57:34 -!- axd [~user@zuzu.xs4all.nl] has left #lisp 19:58:12 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 19:58:21 pjb: I was wondering if I can read it from lisp directly from memory without cffi 20:00:15 the ia-x86 package is from movitz http://repo.or.cz/w/movitz-ia-x86.git 20:00:41 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:01:17 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.84.33] has joined #lisp 20:05:31 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: brb] 20:06:12 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 20:07:08 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-14-77.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 20:07:08 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-cldsckxsndgwrvtq] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:08:34 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:09:04 it would be good to be able to "POKE" the opcodes into memory directly from lisp 20:09:06 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:09:30 Shinmera [~linus@80.77.87.239] has joined #lisp 20:09:45 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-136-122.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:54 francogrex: you can, using whatever support your lisp implementation has 20:10:57 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.84.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:13:15 p_l: sbcl for example? or ccl or whatever do you have example? 20:14:00 sbcl has "SAP" (system area pointer, iirc), and functions that operate on them - those are straightforward pointers. 20:14:31 something similar is available in CCL, and CCL has more accessible (for first timer, or so it looks like) inline asm 20:14:31 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 20:15:47 <|3b|> cffi is runs on top of implementation specific stuff, so you can use whatever it uses 20:15:58 jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:16:50 p_l yes I have mucked around with LAP in ccl; see https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/k6J8J3b1V5k 20:17:26 francogrex: also, there's the extreme option on linux - just open /dev/mem :D 20:18:13 |3b|: from cffi can I poke the opcodes I have used to write the TEST.COM, poke into mem and call it back ? 20:18:34 GrayMagiker [~Steve@c-67-164-129-95.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:41 -!- didi` [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:19:43 <|3b|> you can write to arbitrary memory (assuming nothing else stops you) and call arbitrary pointers as functions 20:20:12 *|3b|* isn't sure if the latter works on all implementations or not 20:20:38 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:21:20 -!- _d3f [~gnu@46.183.216.234] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 20:24:06 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 20:25:12 is this with cffi:foreign-alloc ? 20:27:47 francogrex: yes, with cffi, you can allocate a memory block, store bytes in it, and cast it to a pointer to a C function, and define it as a callback. Actually, the last part may be problematic, I'm not sure it's possible in all implementations. In the worst case, you may need a trampoline library: void call(void(*fun)(void)){fun();} 20:27:55 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-xnbphvbtqfxhitkt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:28:21 And on some processors/systems, you may have to play with page flags and memory barriers. 20:28:26 chord [322f530e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.47.83.14] has joined #lisp 20:28:31 -!- chord [322f530e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.47.83.14] has left #lisp 20:29:18 -!- swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:30:16 swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has joined #lisp 20:30:25 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:32:01 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:33:00 -!- cory786 [~cory@PAT98.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:37:52 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:39:30 -!- swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:39:34 Aramur [~arare@213.Red-79-156-36.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:51 swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has joined #lisp 20:39:58 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:40:19 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:18 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-172-62.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:41:31 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-156-100.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:42:29 hmm it doesn't seem straightforward 20:44:17 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44:44 desophos [~desophos@n138h11.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 20:44:57 francogrex: yes it's straightforward: http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Functions.html#Functions 20:45:01 just read the manual. 20:46:19 pjb: "yes, with cffi, you can allocate a memory block, store bytes in it, and cast it to a pointer to a C function" <- shouldn't you be able to do this with any FFI? Just by calling malloc? (And freeing when you don't need it anymore, of course.) 20:46:22 pjb: poking using the bytes into memory using (with-foreign-object ... is simple 20:46:54 foreign-funcall-pointer 20:47:45 Actually, not all FFI provide this feature, see the implementation-specific notes. 20:47:58 But happily, there seem to be only one, rarely used. 20:49:46 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 20:50:13 -!- sdemarre [~serge@194.65-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:52:13 Corman Lisp ... I used it only a few times 20:53:34 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:25 -!- desophos [~desophos@n138h11.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:01:45 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-26-136-122.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 21:02:51 -!- vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:02:56 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:03:02 -!- statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-229-153.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:03:37 DrForr [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:03:45 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:04:02 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p5091EDEC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:04:08 Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:04:13 -!- antonv_ [5d7d2a42@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:04:23 -!- koisoke [~xef4@epilogue.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:31 koisoke [xef4@epilogue.org] has joined #lisp 21:04:39 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:05:52 Hydan [~hydan@ip-89-103-110-5.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 21:06:20 s0ber_ [~s0ber@1-164-208-45.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:30 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 21:08:14 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-194-217.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:08:17 Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:08:25 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:08:45 -!- swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:09:56 swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has joined #lisp 21:10:49 francogrex: Corman Lisp, on the other hand, has a well-suported native assembly, it my memory serves me. So you wouldn't need it for this particular case anyway. :-) 21:11:44 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:11:48 gleag: yes I know corman on windows has embedded asm. I am doing it for fun and learning; there is not practical need whatsoever 21:12:13 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c1fw224.constantcontact.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:07 I am using cffi to write the bytes to mem using (foreign-alloc :int :initial-contents #(185 40 0 186 64 0 66 180 2 205 33 226 249 184 0 76 205 21 195)) -> #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X00976298) 21:15:34 Corman is unsupported. 21:15:43 but I have hard time figuring how to get that executed as a function.... 21:15:53 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:15:56 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:05 francogrex: are you seriously using corman lisp? 21:16:29 no not at all 21:16:36 I have used it in the past 21:16:54 I am using sbcl almost exclusively 21:17:18 -!- schoppenhauer [~quassel@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:18:24 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:20:46 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 21:25:29 *Xach* must email Roger for an update on his open source release of Corman CL 21:25:29 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-136-122.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:38 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 21:25:43 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:27:06 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:28:39 felideon: why doesn't http://ifelipe.net/ load 21:28:57 WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has joined #lisp 21:29:07 schoppenhauer [~quassel@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:31:27 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 21:33:32 Adlai: because posterous died and I haven't really gotten to putting what was there elsewhere. 21:34:12 and what was there probably belongs more in a wiki, but then again, UCW is kind of dead. :/ 21:34:23 what is less dead than UCW? 21:34:52 cl-nih 21:34:56 Posterous does not exist anymore? 21:35:07 Does that mean we live in pre-posterous times again? 21:40:19 ha hah hmmm 21:40:39 Adlai: i could send you the source HTML I grabbed before it went down :) 21:41:18 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-590c04b5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:41:54 -!- yano [yano@freenode/staff/yano] has quit [Ping timeout: 624 seconds] 21:42:30 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:44:16 -!- maxter_ [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:45:36 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-26-136-122.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 21:47:55 -!- __main__ [~main@50.240.210.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:48:54 -!- whist [~whist@c-98-232-204-76.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:49:08 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:49:19 __main__ [~main@50.240.210.73] has joined #lisp 21:53:44 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 21:53:48 -!- sellout- [~Adium@66.185.107.123] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:54:31 -!- swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:55:05 svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:10 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-136-122.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:18 swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has joined #lisp 21:56:34 -!- swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 21:59:54 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:01:43 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:02:26 that's how it's done in c (http://paste.lisp.org/display/138897#1) so a ((void(*)(void) ... is needed to execute 22:03:07 <|3b|> francogrex: foreign-funcall-pointer ? 22:03:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:24 swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has joined #lisp 22:03:26 -!- swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:03:35 #include >stdlib.h> is probably wrong 22:03:45 Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:03:49 swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has joined #lisp 22:05:16 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 22:09:33 -!- rk[wrkwrkwrk] is now known as ryankarason 22:10:04 ISF [~ivan@187.64.222.94] has joined #lisp 22:14:32 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:16:50 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 22:17:09 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 22:22:40 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.145.168.138] has joined #lisp 22:23:18 -!- swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:24:46 fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317559.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:25:22 hi 22:25:37 foeniks [~fevon@p5091EDEC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:25:42 please how can I write to an usb endpoint using libusb-ffi in a thread? 22:26:05 swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has joined #lisp 22:26:28 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:04 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p5DC62D0F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:30:05 That's a very specific request. You might need to lurk a while to find the right person. 22:31:37 I have to control a composite device: control interface + cdc 22:31:42 + hid 22:32:00 I was able to access control interface and hid interface from the main function 22:32:04 pillton [~user@140.253.50.147] has joined #lisp 22:32:12 the I created a thread to read from the hid interface 22:32:40 What os? 22:32:51 but thread is not able to read data from, if I read same interface endpoint from the main function it works 22:32:54 linux 22:33:38 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 22:33:55 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:34:49 That's beyond me. I can't look at anything presently. 22:35:49 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.84.33] has joined #lisp 22:36:05 is strange that it is possible to read the endpoint from main function and have reading error in the thread 22:36:19 |3b|: yes pjb referred to that, but the cffi manual example is rather limited foreign-funcall-pointer requires an "function" and a name of that function, while all I have is some bytes that I allocated in some (unknown) area in memory 22:36:43 what? 22:36:48 actually it requires a pointer but the example sucks 22:37:04 ah so it won't work in a thread 22:37:05 Posterdati: not to you ;-) 22:37:13 ah ok! 22:37:36 I don't see why it shouldn't work in a thread, apart from the general thread caveats. 22:37:52 me too 22:37:56 lol 22:38:11 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p5091EDEC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:38:28 usb-interrupt-read needs an usb handle 22:38:39 so I passed it as global variable to the thread 22:39:30 <|3b|> did you verify the thread sees the right value? 22:40:02 no 22:40:55 yano [yano@freenode/staff/yano] has joined #lisp 22:42:21 are you on ARM? 22:42:31 no 22:42:53 francogrex: you can cffi-sys:%foreign-funcall-pointer iirc 22:42:56 on some other RISCy CPU with weak memory ordering? 22:43:04 oh 22:43:07 <- slow sorry 22:43:43 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:44:46 oGMo: I know, but how in this case. that's the question 22:44:52 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:53 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.84.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:45:05 francogrex: though, i don't see why that won't work as long as you know the address of the function, and the function is properly cdecl etc 22:45:29 francogrex: well, do you have a pointer to it? or do you have no idea where it's even allocated? in the latter case i don't know how you know it exists ;) 22:46:05 francogrex: FOREIGN-SYMBOL-POINTER just returns a pointer, in that example, for convenience i guess 22:46:19 -!- matko [~matko@ip82-139-125-60.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:59 oGMo: yes I have a pointer to it using foreign-alloc I can have a pointer to the bytes allocated 22:47:56 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:48:07 something like: (foreign-alloc :int :initial-contents #(185 40 0 186 64 0 66 180 2 205 33 226 249 184 0 76 205 21 195)) -> #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X00976298) 22:48:36 yeah .. so just pass that as the pointer and do the args right 22:48:40 <|3b|> did you try passing the result to foreign-funcall-pointer ? 22:49:14 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:49:45 you can't call just any old memory region 22:49:52 why not? 22:50:02 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:50:04 it has to be executable 22:50:05 well, what is the calling convention 22:50:24 cffi has to know how many args it takes and such, at least 22:50:42 <|3b|> yeah, making it executable, flushing caches, etc was next question 22:50:56 what platform .. doesn't linux default to executable? 22:51:04 and my next question: why? 22:51:12 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 22:51:18 oGMo: somehow i doubt write+execute is the norm 22:51:21 its the content of my test.com program: at #x100 22:52:01 so there is it executable 22:52:28 sounds like what you're doing is a bit over your head 22:52:48 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:52:50 however when I allocate the bytes with cffi ... I can't determine where in mem they are located 22:52:59 -!- WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 22:53:15 the return value of the memory allocation routine? 22:53:20 everything starts with over the head, it's by doing it that it goes under 22:53:20 .com? like, a com file? 22:53:23 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:53:30 com file yes 22:53:53 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:53:53 hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:53:56 bike here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/138897 22:54:14 oh goodness gracious 22:54:42 why? 22:55:06 oh if this is windows it's almost certainly protected .. in linux i'd need some valid code to test with heh 22:55:22 ok, a few things. when stassats` is talking about "executable" he doesn't mean "the bytes correspond to something the x86 can execute", but rather "the page in memory the code is at is marked as executable" 22:55:25 oGMo: cat /proc/pid/maps 22:55:48 secondly it looks more like you want a dumb jump than a call 22:56:14 and don't expect to jump back 22:56:45 i doubt the calling convention you're using is compatible with the lisp you're running 22:56:54 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:57:17 er cffi uses cdecl/stdcall as appropriate :p 22:57:33 if it's void/void it shouldn't matter in either case 22:58:09 it's not just about passing arguments, it's about preserving the registers in the right state 22:58:18 vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has joined #lisp 22:58:24 oh, well if he's munging the wrong ones then sure 22:58:34 but the call standards are very easy to look up and conform to, so 22:58:54 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:59 using C abi and employing cffi is the best way 22:59:09 but then, the best way is not to do it 22:59:17 pfft 22:59:22 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:59:23 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:59:24 hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:59:32 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:59:32 that's why the C code below, it's used to that purpose 23:00:02 well late now but if anyone wants to experiment with it it's there. 23:00:22 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 23:00:25 why are you so bent on using assembly from lisp? 23:01:03 and the http://repo.or.cz/w/movitz-ia-x86.git for the ia-x86 so here you have it all to test 23:01:46 stassats`: a portable assembly (x86) at least is something nice, not necessarily useful) but nice and doesn't exist yet 23:02:05 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:02:14 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:03:35 no two lisps use the same calling convention, data type layouts 23:03:41 portability doesn't make sense 23:03:46 -!- xan-afk [~xan@80.174.78.187.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:04:00 WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has joined #lisp 23:04:48 otherwise, take nasm/gas/masm/what have you, generate C ABI shared libraries with it, load with CFFI 23:05:05 walter [~walter@c-98-216-15-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:08 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 23:06:09 it's probably even possible to use ia-x86 package to generated the C shared libs and then load with cffi .. 23:06:20 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 23:06:41 i doubt it can produce ELF binaries 23:07:04 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:31 no not elf it doesn't I don't think. it's real mode flat binaries ... 23:07:46 portable to all of dos 23:08:13 ok on these deep thoughts I leave you 23:08:27 why isn't SBCL ported to MS-DOS yet? 23:08:41 slap some memory extenders, and it's good to go 23:09:19 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:12 -!- Shinmera [~linus@80.77.87.239] has quit [Quit: ZzZ] 23:11:40 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:11:48 -!- francogrex [~user@109.133.128.86] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:12:11 chu_ [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 23:12:23 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 23:13:29 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:13:56 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 23:16:35 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:17:33 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17:54 -!- add^_ [~user@m37-3-55-160.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:17:57 -!- WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 23:18:02 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 23:18:46 -!- __stdout [~Nico@p549F7199.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: __stdout] 23:19:40 WarWeasle [~brad@162.72.14.206] has joined #lisp 23:23:58 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24:35 cory786 [~cory@107-219-7-73.lightspeed.toldoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:07 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 23:28:31 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:30:15 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 23:30:34 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:31:15 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:d3f0:60b8:b5ec:4163:7ea6] has joined #lisp 23:37:41 -!- sweet_kid [having@irc.upasna.in] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:37:51 -!- LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:38:13 sweet_kid [having@irc.upasna.in] has joined #lisp 23:39:29 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:39:50 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 23:40:04 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:11 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:41:34 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-066-117.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:27 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-242-160-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:44:59 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:43 ryankara1on [~rak@108-245-58-182.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:59 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:52:30 -!- yano [yano@freenode/staff/yano] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 23:56:51 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 23:58:28 -!- walter [~walter@c-98-216-15-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:01:00 -!- syrinx_ is now known as syrinxHupUSA 00:01:49 devon`` [~devon@2001:470:8b2d:7fc:a800:ff:febf:caf9] has joined #lisp 00:04:25 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 00:05:18 ISO8601 [yano@freenode/staff/yano] has joined #lisp 00:05:55 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@218.22.21.23] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:06:03 Can I change a binary stream opened with `with-open-file' to a character one? 00:06:16 no 00:06:28 Thanks. 00:06:31 If it's ascii, you could convert it, no? 00:06:38 you can create a new stream on top of it 00:07:01 it wouldn't be as efficient 00:07:07 minion: flexi-streams? 00:07:08 flexi-streams: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/flexi-streams 00:08:11 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:08:45 -!- chu_ [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:08:48 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 00:09:14 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:09:45 -!- ltbarcly_ [~textual@216.113.168.141] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:09:53 -!- doomlord__ [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:10:13 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 00:10:13 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 00:11:30 -!- harish__ [~harish@119.56.122.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:13:06 walter [~walter@c-98-216-15-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:04 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:18:31 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 00:27:27 -!- tylergoza [~tylergoza@72.29.34.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:30:30 -!- Zagaba [~user@modemcable048.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:31:17 -!- ISO8601 is now known as yano 00:31:51 stassats`: Is it possible to do it without flexi-streams? I'm looking at `with-open-stream', but I can't find a way of declaring the element type. 00:32:10 it isn't 00:32:12 Maybe I have to use `open' and `close' directly. 00:32:26 Hum. 00:32:31 it isn't possibly to do without gray streams 00:32:38 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host155.186-124-2.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:32:41 I see. 00:32:45 i don't get it, why don't you use with-open-file? 00:32:49 Thank you again. 00:34:05 stassats`: I already have it opened with '(unsigned-byte 8). Based of the first bytes of the file, it's easier for me to treat it as a character stream. 00:34:52 OPEN is the same as with-open-file 00:35:07 stassats`: Right. I misread it. 00:35:26 with-open-file == with-open-stream + open 00:36:44 are you willing to only use SBCL? 00:37:04 stassats`: I am. 00:37:09 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:38:07 didi: (with-open-file (stream "/dev/urandom" :element-type :default) (values (read-char stream) (read-byte stream))) => #\Fs 144 00:39:07 stassats`: Nice. Thanks. 00:39:28 and flexi-streams on other 00:40:20 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 00:40:46 stassats`: I get different results. 00:41:15 Xach: NSA didn't spike your rdrand? 00:42:13 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-98-246-180-47.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:21 -!- breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:45:48 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:49:19 -!- Aramur [~arare@213.Red-79-156-36.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 00:49:21 -!- arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: arare] 00:51:52 k0001 [~k0001@host155.186-124-2.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:52:19 -!- s00pcan [~chris@108-208-64-149.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:54:29 -!- WarWeasle [~brad@162.72.14.206] has left #lisp 00:55:22 zRecursive [~czsq888@171.214.172.234] has joined #lisp 00:55:24 -!- arrsim` [~user@128.250.116.182] has left #lisp 00:56:55 -!- walter [~walter@c-98-216-15-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:59:16 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-066-117.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:00:51 -!- agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:01:24 Aerolitus [~Aerolitus@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 01:05:19 -!- guiambros [~guiambros@pool-96-224-200-82.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:05:40 burd07 [~burd07@78.129.150.164] has joined #lisp 01:08:46 nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has joined #lisp 01:14:07 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 01:14:48 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.145.168.138] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting -- bye] 01:17:04 Is there a difference between the value of *load-truename* and *load-pathname*? SBCL appears to give them the same value. 01:17:05 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:17:16 there is 01:17:46 nilsi_ [~nilsi@5.254.150.16] has joined #lisp 01:17:52 clhs 20.1.3 01:17:52 Truenames: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/20_ac.htm 01:19:08 When I (load "test.lsp") which contains (format t "(equal *load-pathname* *load-truename*) -> ~A~%" (equal *load-pathname* *load-truename*)) I get -> T 01:19:34 that doesn't tell you anything, does it? 01:20:12 It tells me they are "equal" but not "eq" (another test). It doesn't tell me how they are different. 01:20:57 it tells you that they are sometimes equal 01:22:58 Let me start over - I'm fixing my implementation of LOAD - how would I generate the "truename" of a file? 01:23:23 you can burden yourself with knowledge of what a truename is by following the link above 01:23:51 zophy [~sy@24.220.134.63] has joined #lisp 01:24:27 Would I use (pathname (namestring *load-pathname*))? 01:24:47 that would be silly, wouldn't it? 01:25:20 converting it to a string and then back to a pathname, that's not going to achieve anything 01:25:42 clhs truename 01:25:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_tn.htm 01:26:12 -!- ben_m [~Ben@chello080108155179.8.12.vie.surfer.at] has left #lisp 01:26:19 it's aptly named *load-TRUENAME* 01:26:24 Oh - there's a truename function - I did not know that. 01:27:16 you could have learned about it from the link to the 20.1.3 section 01:28:38 par [~owls@unaffiliated/lordlicorice] has joined #lisp 01:29:33 Hi, do lisps typically make any guarantees about which order items are evaled in? 01:29:40 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@5.254.150.16] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:29:52 like, C and C++ don't 01:30:03 when you're talking about function application in those languages 01:30:08 par: In the argument list? 01:30:12 yeah 01:30:39 par: You expect it to be left-to-right, but there is no guarantee with macros. 01:30:46 par: common lisp, the lisp this channel is concerned about, guarantees it to be from left to right 01:31:18 all right thank you 01:31:33 in scheme it's whatever to whatever 01:31:50 -!- Eleusi [~Eleusi@h69-130-16-111.nwlnnh.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:32:22 breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:26 I see - I did not read the last paragraph of 20.1.3.1 - which finally mentions the function TRUENAME - my eyes glazed over before I hit that. 01:32:38 I have mixed feelings about the order of evaluation of arguments. I suspect that on balance, a well defined order is a good thing. 01:32:55 I also haven't implemented TRUENAME - hi ho - off to work I go. 01:33:16 ok that must be what I'm thinking of. I thought I remembered being bewildered in college about how to ensure one thing happens before another in a giant scheme statement 01:33:32 Sequence it with CPS. :) 01:33:35 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:33:52 par: You can code defensively and use `let*' with side-effect arguments. 01:34:02 (or let, if you're not manly enough) 01:34:06 -!- zophy [~sy@24.220.134.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:34:40 Did you ever try capturing the continuation at the point of an argument evaluation? :) 01:35:03 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36:17 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 01:36:43 aahh I wish I had known about this channel then :) 01:37:07 isn't the order of LET undefined in scheme too? 01:38:40 didi said let* 01:38:56 Or nest the lets. 01:40:00 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:40:22 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:41:30 for added fun, run it on Alpha 01:44:02 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:02 harish__ [harish@nat/redhat/x-twpwpbodecyxbgve] has joined #lisp 01:52:25 In swank-ecl.lisp I found (PROBE-FILE "sys:serve-event.fas") in 19.3.1.1.1 I read that SYS: is a host name that is reserved for the implementation. Is it supposed to refer to a single directory or can it refer to more than one directory? 01:54:05 drmeister: the point of logical pathnames is that they can be translated into arbitrary physical locations without changing the logical references. 01:54:18 so, it could be any number of directories, depending on which translations are in effect. 01:54:19 macdice` [~user@46-65-10-191.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 01:54:41 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 01:55:50 leo2007 [~leo@124.64.111.17] has joined #lisp 01:56:42 -!- macdice [~user@46-65-10-191.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:57:24 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-54-234-181.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:58:03 zophy [~sy@host-24-30-2-96.midco.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:08 WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has joined #lisp 02:02:31 walter [~walter@c-98-216-15-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:23 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-54-234-181.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:07:33 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:10:21 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:10:43 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:12:41 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-108-38-175-139.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 02:15:06 -!- zophy [~sy@host-24-30-2-96.midco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:16:10 Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:20:54 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 02:21:24 -!- macrobat [~beep@h-199-47.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:23:11 So I'm missing the translate-logical-pathname functionality of common lisp. 02:25:01 -!- leo2007 [~leo@124.64.111.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:25:17 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 02:25:18 Maybe you could put it off for a while. You don't have to do exactly what swank is doing there. 02:25:33 It looks complicated (sigh) - I had a questions but I'll do more reading. 02:26:04 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:26:34 leo2007 [~leo@124.64.111.17] has joined #lisp 02:26:52 -!- photex [~photex@192.241.224.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:27:13 Well, it's the "shaving the yak" thing - I'm trying to do A but that requires B and that requires C ... it's hard to figure out what I can get away with right now - I want SLIME. 02:28:39 i had a slime server in shell in 20 lines 02:28:48 or a client, i don't remember 02:28:52 I've implemented :SB-BSD-SOCKETS and :SERVE-EVENT - I wrote a simple server that I can telnet into and have it evaluate S-exps and send the result back as responses - yay! I've conquered the foot-hills and I'm proceeding up Everest. 02:28:56 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:20 photex [~photex@192.241.224.216] has joined #lisp 02:30:33 it's actually 40 lines and it's a client 02:30:36 The TRANSLATE-LOGICAL-PATHNAMES functionality looks very useful now that I see what it does - all this time, I've been hard-coding directories when I should have been using T-L-P 02:31:11 stassats`: cool, do you have the source? 02:31:32 Yes, do you have the source - that might give me a better idea of what I can get away with. 02:32:34 leo2007: http://paste.lisp.org/display/138900 02:33:29 stassats`: thanks 02:34:08 And what is this exactly? Do you run swank in a CL implementation and connect to it with this? 02:34:20 it is a client 02:34:36 it's not useful for your purposes 02:35:28 Right - I want to get a swank running in my CL 02:35:42 ianclarksmith [~ianclarks@ool-18bf6d86.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:54 -!- ianclarksmith is now known as ics 02:36:15 How do you run swank from the command line if you are using SBCL? 02:36:17 can you already connect and execute forms? 02:36:29 With my little server - yes. 02:36:35 sbcl --load start-swank.lisp 02:36:48 drmeister: Are you writing a new CL implementation? 02:36:56 How does it know to load swank-sbcl.lisp? 02:37:07 I'm assuming it probes the *features* 02:37:11 little gnomes whisper it in its ear 02:37:26 *drmeister* has got to get him some gnomes. 02:37:40 didi: Yes. 02:37:54 drmeister: Is it available somewhere? 02:38:01 didi: Nope - not yet. 02:38:06 oic 02:38:39 drmeister: Are you implementing it on top of some lisp system? 02:38:39 I'm surprised how many people ask me that. 02:39:16 didi: I've written a C++ core and I'm hosting the ECL Common Lisp source code. The goal is a Common Lisp that interoperates with C++. 02:39:31 I see. 02:39:51 It uses LLVM as the back-end and generates JIT compiled code. 02:40:01 Sounds complicated. 02:40:33 Yeah but bit by bit it's coming together. I'm trying to get SLIME up and running. 02:41:50 desophos [~desophos@n138h11.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 02:42:23 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-173-230.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 02:42:55 drmeister: Is it a C++ library? 02:43:47 stassats: I see swank-loader.lisp has *sysdep-files* - is swank-loader.lisp the only file that needs to be modified to support a new CL (brcl) other than the swank-brcl.lisp? 02:44:27 -!- eeezkil [~eeezkil@unaffiliated/eeezkil] has quit [Quit: ^D] 02:44:43 didi: Yes, I guess it is. It's a bunch of libraries and a main.cc - does that answer the question? 02:45:47 yes 02:45:59 drmeister: I guess. But then I don't know how you'll use it. 02:46:16 is it Breaking CL? 02:46:20 stassats: Never mind - I found the answer - swank-backend.lisp has a smattering of feature tests. 02:47:29 stassats`: BRidge-Common-Lisp - Breaking CL makes no sense - you can't break a standard, you can only strive to implement it. 02:47:40 didi: How do you mean? 02:47:48 didi: Or what do you mean? 02:48:07 well, i thought you would use it to produce better meth 02:48:40 drmeister: I mean, you said "The goal is a Common Lisp that interoperates with C++". How will you extend the system? 02:49:02 C++ libraries and Common Lisp libraries. 02:49:40 drmeister: Hum. So will you link then at compile time? 02:49:47 s/then/them 02:49:51 I've already exposed the LLVM C++ library within it - that's how I access the LLVM backend. Dozens and dozens of LLVM C++ classes exposed within Common Lisp. 02:50:05 minion: what does BRCL stand for? 02:50:05 Benzopyrazolone Ranksman Common Lisp 02:50:33 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.171.112.152] has joined #lisp 02:50:33 -!- walter [~walter@c-98-216-15-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:50:57 drmeister: oic. Well, I don't know LLVM, so I'm thinking there lies my misunderstanding. 02:51:07 stassats`: That's more apropos than you know - brcl is going to be designing molecules. 02:52:01 walter [~walter@c-98-216-15-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:20 "bridge" is a boring name 02:52:58 can't think of any exciting chloride compounds to use 02:53:33 There's always Nacl if you want to confuse people more. 02:53:37 didi: No problem. If you want your library to tie into the Garbage Collector then you link the library (embed it) in at compile time. If you don't then you will load dynamic libraries (extend it). It's like PYTHON which you can extend or embed. 02:53:44 salt is unexciting! 02:54:21 Well, you could subtitle it as "lick my salty chocolate balls". 02:54:39 Bike: there's bromine monochloride, apparently 02:55:03 and it's highly toxic, so, fun 02:58:07 Bromine monochloride is BrCl 02:59:34 I think I'll take ECL's unixfsys.d and translate it into C++ - I'll leave the copyright notice in of course. 03:00:29 minion: what does BRCL stand for? 03:00:29 Biduous Ransel Common Lisp 03:00:39 s00pcan [~chris@108-208-64-149.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:00 better than "bridge" at any rate 03:03:57 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.195.55] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:05:04 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 03:06:33 -!- swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:06:44 swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has joined #lisp 03:07:35 minion: What's in a name? 03:07:35 maybe you need to ask my master, chandler - he knows a lot 03:07:47 minion: What's in a name? 03:07:47 Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 34 seconds is too many. 03:08:04 Whoops. 03:08:11 minion: how could you! 03:08:22 minion doesn't even know its master 03:10:03 james111111 [~james1111@173-23-175-149.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:12:25 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:38 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:20:37 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:12 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:22:09 -!- breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:23:28 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:25:01 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping 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[~attila_le@87.247.13.219] has joined #lisp 06:10:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.219] has quit [Changing host] 06:10:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:11:28 flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has joined #lisp 06:11:28 -!- flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has quit [Changing host] 06:11:28 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 06:12:57 snowylike [~sn@91-67-170-78-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 06:13:54 Rich_Morin [~rdm@cfcl.com] has joined #lisp 06:14:44 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 06:15:01 I'm looking at some Common Lisp code where quite a few of the function names begin with commas. I don't see this convention in http://www.cliki.net/naming%20conventions - any ideas? 06:20:16 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 06:20:38 Rich_Morin: comma is unquote within a backquoted list 06:20:59 cdan [~cdan@mail.savatech.ro] has joined #lisp 06:21:28 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:49 thanks; I see now that they are being defined within defmacros. 06:24:24 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-145-59.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:24:47 As you can tell, CL noob here... 06:26:32 np 06:26:36 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:27:09 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:28:39 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 06:28:50 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 06:32:41 ebw [~user@f051128250.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:35:29 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 06:35:59 -!- k0001 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install.sh really succeed? 08:27:50 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp 08:28:01 I think so... I can run it again and see for sure. 08:28:20 quazimodo [~quazimodo@202.62.130.230] has joined #lisp 08:28:31 so the 'it' you try to run is what exactly? sbcl? 08:28:52 yeah 08:28:53 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:29:25 ok, try: sbcl --no-userinit --no-sysinit 08:29:57 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 08:29:59 You should get a banner and a "* " prompt. 08:30:11 oh, and by the way 08:30:25 when I just run sbcl as user, I get bash: /usr/local/bin/sbcl: cannot execute binary file 08:30:36 only when I run as sudo, I get Syntax error 08:30:41 monokai: Did you install for the correct architecture? 08:30:43 but let me try now your thing 08:30:46 monokai: (x64 vs x86) 08:30:51 ls -l /usr/local/bin/sbcl ; file /usr/local/bin/sbcl 08:30:51 yes, 64-bit x86 08:31:16 monokai: try file /usr/local/bin/sbcl and tells us, what it prints? 08:31:19 you may have a bad umask when you installed it. 08:32:04 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.166.46] has joined #lisp 08:32:33 /usr/local/bin/sbcl: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.32, BuildID[sha1]=0x5dc4bdc3c5521baa979b4bb0d003b8526c2bdcc0, not stripped 08:32:54 and: ls -l /usr/local/bin/sbcl #? 08:33:23 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 993619 Sep 11 10:28 /usr/local/bin/sbcl 08:33:46 Are you really on a 64-bit system? uname -a 08:34:12 "cannot execute binary file" is not a permissions problem message 08:34:19 omg 08:34:25 haha, sh `which sbcl` 08:34:30 maybe it's 32-bit 08:34:42 (it's a work computer I don't frequently use ;)) 08:34:42 32-bit should run on most typical 64-bit linux installations 08:34:50 unless you're totally missing the compat-packages 08:34:53 uname -m # will tell you 08:35:17 But usually you won't run a 64-bit binary on a 32-bit kernel. 08:35:18 monokai: try "ldd /usr/local/bin/sbcl" if it doesn't list libraries, it is the wrong architecture. 08:35:18 3.2.0-52-generic #78-Ubuntu SMP Fri Jul 26 16:23:24 UTC 2013 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux 08:35:28 There, you have a 32-bit kernel. 08:35:35 I'm an idiot. 08:35:39 sorry for taking your time 08:35:42 No, it's Ubuntu. 08:36:10 Ubuntu is an african word for "slackware is to hard for me" (just a joke) 08:36:13 I had to re-install it in 64-bit also, I didn't find an easy way to upgrade from 32-bit to 64-bit with Ubuntu. 08:36:44 Ubuntu is a distribution made by an astronaut! :-) 08:36:56 lol 08:37:15 with a predestined name too: Shuttleworth. 08:37:25 Maybe SBCL should check during installation... 08:37:45 With a prominent warning, yes. 08:38:21 Or do like ccl, install both 32-bit and 64-bit binaries, and a sbcl script that selects one or the other depending on the current kernel 08:38:21 OK, so I could get 32-bit SBCL, but is 1.0.58 good enough? Or should I reinstall Ubuntu? 08:38:35 monokai: how much RAM do you have? 08:38:40 free 08:38:56 3GB total 08:39:07 So 32-bit is ok, get a 32-bit sbcl. 08:39:17 monokai: Get the sbcl-sources by a git repository, reset to latest stable tag, recompile, install ... 08:39:52 I don't really care about RAM, I'm just worried I'll be missing something important from SBCL 1.1.11. Or is1.0.58 perfectly fine? 08:40:18 Nothing stroke me as important. 08:40:44 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 08:40:46 SBCL has been good for a long time, the monthly updates and version increases are more a PR ploy. 08:40:46 What 1.1.11 doesn't run on 32b anymore? 08:40:56 s/What/What,/ 08:41:32 according to SBCL website, there's no 1.1.11 for 32-bit: http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html 08:41:45 Linux, anyways 08:41:54 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:43:25 I think the question is whether it means "we don't have binaries for you" or rather "doesn't run, don't even try to build your own". 08:43:48 gleag, binaries, of course, but I'm a newbie, I'll go the easy way ;) 08:43:59 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@202.62.130.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:44:49 It says "1.1.8 port in progress" for Win32 but 1.1.11 actually seems to work on Win32 without major problems (at least better than any previous version). 08:45:36 monokai: you can get ccl or clisp to compile sbcl 1.1.11 32-bit. 08:46:02 or sbcl 1.0.58 of course. 08:46:56 yeah, 1.0.58 will do for now, since I'm just starting with Lisp anyways. And on my home computer I'll get 1.1.11. 08:48:14 regarding removing the 64-bit installation, will it be sufficient if I just delete /usr/local/bin/sbcl ? 08:48:50 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 08:48:59 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:49:40 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:49:49 monokai: If you reinstall a new version, the old files will be overwritten. But I would recommend using gnu stow or similar. If you would like to do that, I can help with problems. 08:50:41 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 08:52:42 -!- balle [~balle@pulsar.inf.ethz.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:54:14 kiuma [~kiuma@88-149-143-15.v4.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 08:54:34 OK, I got 32-bit and it works! 08:54:44 Thank you guys for your patience. This is a great community. 08:55:59 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@88-149-143-15.v4.ngi.it] has quit [Client Quit] 08:57:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:58:35 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:59:31 so now it's probably time for Emacs and Slime? ;) 09:00:42 balle [~balle@pulsar.inf.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 09:01:21 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 09:02:02 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 09:02:31 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-baxfxrcjioymflqp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:02:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:03:53 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:06:07 -!- balle [~balle@pulsar.inf.ethz.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:06:52 -!- monokai [~monokai@217-67-201-252.itsa.net.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:06:54 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09:25:54 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@88-149-143-15.v4.ngi.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:27:11 wilfredh [uid159@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hpndlcnpckqjafrq] has joined #lisp 09:27:41 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-26-136-122.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:29:08 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 09:29:55 monokai: install quicklisp http://beta.quicklisp.org/ and use quicklisp to install swank and slime: (ql:quickload :swank) (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper) 09:30:11 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:32:05 -!- sabra [~sabra@67.174.222.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:32:21 sabra [~sabra@67.174.222.215] has joined #lisp 09:32:22 agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:38 -!- bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:32:50 kanru` [~kanru@193.214.41.96] has joined #lisp 09:32:59 pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has joined #lisp 09:33:30 -!- ics 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-!- zRecursive [~czsq888@110.185.19.124] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00:43 -!- par [~owls@unaffiliated/lordlicorice] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:01:02 par [~owls@unaffiliated/lordlicorice] has joined #lisp 11:04:47 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:05:29 kanru` [~kanru@193.214.41.96] has joined #lisp 11:05:44 -!- arrsim [~user@27-32-235-88.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:07:40 nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has joined #lisp 11:10:50 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:05 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:13:10 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:13:14 -!- milosn [~milosn@cable-178-149-0-183.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:14:35 -!- effy [~quassel@222.131.154.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 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11:49:53 Is is really so that SLIME is abandoned, like this guy seem to think? http://enlivend.livejournal.com/46622.html 11:50:01 Anyone here knows? 11:50:21 Maybe it is perfect. 11:50:43 Could be, I guess. But, considering this dude want to report bugs... 11:51:10 Personally I must confess it feel near perfect. 11:51:28 benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f230:6cf0:7407:7c6b:9851] has joined #lisp 11:51:50 -!- kmox83 [~kmox83@2-229-13-115.ip194.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 11:52:00 kmox83 [~kmox83@2-229-13-115.ip194.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:52:45 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 11:53:27 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:d400:60b8:b5ec:4163:7ea6] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:53:55 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 11:54:03 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-6-18.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:54:36 -!- swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:55:27 swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has joined #lisp 11:57:09 segv- [~mb@95-91-242-160-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:58:15 -!- genkinodenki [~migrayn@dsl-vntbrasgw1-50dc7f-98.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:00:35 eff_ [~quassel@222.131.154.131] has joined #lisp 12:00:36 genkinodenki [~migrayn@dsl-vntbrasgw1-50dc7f-98.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 12:01:11 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:02:17 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 12:05:32 -!- par [~owls@unaffiliated/lordlicorice] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:05:35 par [~owls@unaffiliated/lordlicorice] has joined #lisp 12:07:30 statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-007-053.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:09:50 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:11:24 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.101] has joined #lisp 12:11:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.101] has quit [Changing host] 12:11:24 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:11:24 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:38 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-30-218.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:12:19 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@125.120.254.195] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 12:12:39 -!- Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:14:05 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.226.243] has joined #lisp 12:14:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 12:14:29 -!- swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:15:00 swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has joined #lisp 12:15:19 -!- swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:15:26 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:15:49 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:18:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:18:37 -!- kmox83 [~kmox83@2-229-13-115.ip194.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: kmox83] 12:19:05 arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 12:19:35 multiple inspector stacks would be nice though 12:19:59 didn't look straightforward though 12:20:53 -!- ryankara1on [~rak@108-245-58-182.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:21:20 -!- ryankarason is now known as rk[wrkwrkwrk] 12:21:52 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-84-44-155-46.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:23:11 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:23:21 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 12:25:59 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 12:26:45 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:27:21 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:30 -!- milosn [~milosn@cable-178-149-0-183.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:31:43 -!- benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f230:6cf0:7407:7c6b:9851] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 12:34:03 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:36:10 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.26.91] has joined #lisp 12:36:10 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.26.91] has quit [Changing host] 12:36:10 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 12:36:48 kmox83 [~kmox83@2-229-13-115.ip194.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:38:22 -!- par [~owls@unaffiliated/lordlicorice] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:38:30 par [~owls@unaffiliated/lordlicorice] has joined #lisp 12:38:37 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 12:39:00 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:41:23 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 12:42:25 LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:44:20 Cymew: yeah that's the social problem of lisp, we cowardly abandon our software children. 12:44:46 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:46:06 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.203.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:46:11 is there a lib somewhere that will look at a file and, from bytes in the file, try and guess its encoding (utf-8, utf-16 is all i care about) and end-of-line style? 12:46:32 i don't really want to implement my own byte-order-mark testing code 12:47:52 -!- agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:48:51 -!- WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:49:47 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.166.46] has joined #lisp 12:50:10 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:51:49 segv-: yes there is. 12:53:06 https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/b9a21b193f6025fe664d85838c69b929aa8d1623:tools/make-depends.lisp#L690 12:54:09 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 12:54:26 Well, I expect emacs local variable declarations. 12:54:46 If you want to probe, there's file(1), but it is not always correct. 12:55:53 encoding guessing is hard in absolute, but easy if you can give more details about your files. For example, do they contain random characters, or do they contain text in a given language? 12:55:54 _tca [~user@h151.25.91.207.static.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:24 aluuu [~aluuu@128-70-136-78.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 12:56:28 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:56:47 I had a tool written in C that did some statistics on a file to determine that. 12:57:36 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 12:58:03 and some windows programs put byte-order marker in utf-8 files 12:58:13 like notepad 13:01:30 But it was to distinguish MacOS from NeXTstep files :-) http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=public/tools&h=b314bca1b67c5960ee1c414d68eb1f920193838f&hb=0e623d37ca988105a02c93e5c6ee0d6c0fb14b9d&f=ascii-utilities/sources/whatisit.c 13:01:48 I mean, since then I've only had to deal with utf-8-unix files. 13:02:09 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:04:08 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:05:43 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:05:44 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.195.184] has joined #lisp 13:06:12 lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:43 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 13:09:22 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 13:10:51 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:11:53 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:35 ogamita: my problem is that if i had enough control over the file to require emacs variables specifying the encoding, then i could just require utf-8 everywhere. 13:12:57 Of course. 13:13:07 but i'm getting data from the outside world and it's either utf-8 with unix line endings, utf-8 (with the BOM) and dos line endings, or utf-16 with unix line endings. 13:13:22 utf-16 is easy to detect, if the file contains european language characters: every other byte is 0. 13:13:29 and i need to guess (of course, i can't be sure, and i have no idea what to do when the user submits a jpg instead of a text file) 13:13:50 There should not be any 0 byte in a utf-8 file. 13:13:51 ogamita: there's still the endianness to guess/infer 13:14:20 ogamita: correct, and this is certainly a solvable problem (with a limited probability of certain-ness) 13:14:29 i was just hoping someone had already solved it (in lisp) 13:14:40 IIRC, the BOM in utf-16 is 2 bytes, so if the even-numbered bytes are 0 it's big endian, otherwise it's little endial. (0-based). 13:15:16 ogamita: the BOM it utf-16 is #xFFFE (so #xFEFF if the file is little endian) 13:15:25 hm, /bin/file is certainly on option 13:15:52 neuromancer [stein@unaffiliated/neuromancer] has joined #lisp 13:16:07 at the end of the day looking for a bom and/or sampling bits and doing some simple stats is the way to go 13:16:18 but i was kinda hoping i could steal someone else's work 13:16:31 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:16:37 Nope. social problem of lisp, etc. 13:17:07 Sup people. Which lisp do I choose these days for practical stuff? Last time I looked into it was 20 years ago :) 13:17:21 segv-: there's some C lib that does charset recognition 13:17:26 It depends on your practice. 13:17:29 but linux does not use BOM's does it ? 13:17:32 making a CFFI interface should pretty simple 13:17:34 all of them but gcl (which is not yet up to it). 13:17:39 Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:17:53 oleo: only Windows uses BOM, and even there it's not necessary iirc 13:18:10 ja ok, i got it right then.... 13:18:30 (BOM comes from UCS-2/UTF-16 iirc, which is used internally by NT) 13:18:43 segv-: really, it should be easy to check, if you expect specific kind of files. Indeed, just reading the first block in binary, and doing two tests should give you the answer. 13:18:46 Baggers [~yaaic@cpc5-cbly5-2-0-cust10.6-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:18:52 zophy [~sy@24.220.134.6] has joined #lisp 13:19:03 clisp maybe 13:19:38 p_l: i see icu has charset detection code, i'll look at using that. 13:20:10 I'm not sure but isn't BOM required for UTF-16? Or at least simply more customary? 13:20:12 neuromancer: I use clisp for all my scripts. ccl for my macosx customers. sbcl for my web server deployments. abcl to play on the jdk. mocl to play on iOS and Android. ecl for embedded applications. etc. 13:20:14 ogamita: yeah, it'll be easy (and this is a best-effort task, so i can choose when to stop making it smarter) 13:20:21 knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has joined #lisp 13:20:33 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:20:50 ogamita: okay 13:20:50 segv-: Content-Type: were invented for this. 13:20:53 The reason why Windows uses BOM for UTF-8 and Unix doesn't is that Windows is dumb, but in UTF-16, there actually *is* a byte order issue. 13:21:11 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-sxsofflsslobebfy] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:21:11 Another reason not to use utf-16. 13:21:16 ogamita: yup, and i wish i had that header 13:21:45 Although do they actually use utf-16, or are they still on ucs-2? 13:21:48 the underlying issue is that all i have are bytes on disk (even the file name may have be mauled by some other process) 13:21:54 Zhivago from ##C++ ? 13:22:07 Zhivago: The real reason not to use UTF-16 is that is combines the worst properties of UTF-8 and constant-width wide encondings. 13:22:14 neuromancer: Why not go there and ask? 13:22:26 segv-: but again, are they random files, or do they contain literature, or programs, or what kind of data? 13:22:28 that answered it 13:22:33 gleag: That, too. 13:23:01 Zhivago: It combines the fortuitous O(N) access property of UTF-8 with the space efficiency of UTF-32. :) 13:23:02 segv-: as soon as they're not random, you can detemine their encoding with a very small number of checks, because of Bayesian probabilities. 13:23:33 And, of course, with the endian dependency of UTF-32. 13:23:52 i guess assholes like Zhivago can use lisp too 13:23:53 UTF-32-pdp-endian :-) 13:23:54 ogamita: they're csv files. so i can look at the first 4 bytes and see if there's a BOM, then i can quickly look for #x0D #x0A and try and guess the line ending style and, really, that'll be good enough for me. 13:23:59 say hi to pragma 13:24:02 -!- neuromancer [stein@unaffiliated/neuromancer] has left #lisp 13:24:12 segv-: well IIRC cvs files start with "M ". 13:24:20 Gah, I ruined the joke. 13:24:25 ogamita: hm, not the ones i'm getting 13:24:36 is that literally an #\M and a #\Space ? 13:25:05 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 13:25:15 neuromancer [stein@unaffiliated/neuromancer] has joined #lisp 13:25:17 http://bytes.com/topic/c/answers/222627-c-irc-channels 13:25:19 -!- neuromancer [stein@unaffiliated/neuromancer] has left #lisp 13:25:35 Well, I'm not sure if the file actually. Yesterday I was tcpdumping the cvs protocol for cvsclone.l and the lines started by "M " but that was probably diffs. 13:25:47 Not raw ,v files. 13:27:20 ogamita: I'm really not an expert but don't the ,v files have some deeper RCS heritage? 13:28:06 okflo [~user@62-46-132-121.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:28:28 Yes, this "M " was just a transmission line header, they're not in the files. 13:28:38 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-tqtixffoqylpcscl] has joined #lisp 13:29:54 No, but the point is that at the start of the ,v files, there's a header that's in ASCII, so you can count on a few 0 x 0 y 0 z or x 0 y 0 z 0 or x y z bytes to detect the three encodings, and then check the newlines in the first block and you're all set. 13:32:01 Why would you detect the encoding? CVS is capable of dealing with non-inside-127b-ASCII-compatible encodings in the first place? 13:32:13 ogamita: oh, sorry. i meant to say CSV (comma seperated values), not CVS 13:32:14 my bad 13:33:10 Well, there are about 6 million slightly different CSV formats. 13:33:51 *gleag* does a facepalm. 13:33:58 Munksgaard [~philip@wireless-eduroam.science.ku.dk] has joined #lisp 13:34:05 You did, I should have noticed that. 13:34:14 segv-: :-) 13:35:04 Yes, it's difficult to expect something from CSV. Often it's even not comma-separated. 13:35:20 Well, in that case, the problem is multiplied: not only do CSV files allow for different, even non-ascii-compatible encodings (unlike CSV files), but there's no CSV spec that would tell you how to unambigously treat them. 13:35:53 TSV is often easier, particularly if tabs are out of band. 13:36:01 And you can have newlines inside the data, and you could have just return or just linefeed inside data, with a different newline, and that override the statistics. 13:36:15 Even SYLK is probably better. :) 13:36:30 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.166.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:36:47 What is SYLK? 13:36:57 Lotus file format IIRC. 13:37:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SYmbolic_LinK_%28SYLK%29 13:37:13 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.166.17] has joined #lisp 13:37:14 Ah. Microsoft. 13:37:47 Zhivago: well, they invented both. 13:38:11 I mean, that explains why I hadn't heard of it. 13:38:18 segv-: if you have consistently a header line in those CSV files, you could perhaps count on it to perform your heuristic? 13:38:52 You can probably make a good heuristic from expecting a rectangular data-set. 13:38:53 Zhivago: It has some interesting connotations nowadays: http://www.sylk.co.uk 13:38:55 I column titles are in ASCII and without new lines? 13:38:57 If 13:38:59 Microsoft sure can pick names. :) 13:39:13 Then you can back-off to the next variant whenever the data becomes ragged. 13:39:14 ogamita: i do have a header line (or the file is empty) and i just walk forward to the first new line 13:39:29 if i don't find anything "quickly" i give up and assume it's a jpg (or something not text) 13:39:30 it'll work 13:40:32 and everything about CSVs being themselves a grab bag of different styles and formats is true; there's a lot of guess work here. 13:40:35 yeah, so just reading until the first (CR|LF|CRLF). and noting whether odd or even numbered bytes are 0, you should be good. 13:40:38 and i'm ok with getting things wrong from time to time 13:42:39 -!- par [~owls@unaffiliated/lordlicorice] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:42:49 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:43:04 par [~owls@unaffiliated/lordlicorice] has joined #lisp 13:43:06 isn't dim doing something like that too? 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Xach_ [~xach@cpe-67-255-229-229.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:25:50 -!- joneshf-laptop_ [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:25:50 <|3b|> (loop for x = (nthcdr (1- N) list) then (nthcdr N x) while x collect (car x))? 06:26:15 -!- guyal [~anonymous@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:26:15 -!- guyal_ is now known as guyal 06:26:21 that works 06:27:14 <|3b|> or (loop for i in list for x from 1 when (zerop (mod x n)) collect i) 06:27:35 jaimef_ [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 06:27:43 -!- neoncort` [~Aerolitus@177.39.189.243] has quit [Changing host] 06:27:43 neoncort` [~Aerolitus@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 06:27:46 -!- neoncort` is now known as neoncortex 06:28:46 ggherdov [uid11402@unaffiliated/ggherdov] has joined #lisp 06:33:46 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 06:38:42 alezost [~user@128-70-203-73.broadband.corbina.ru] 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foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 09:25:01 add^_ [~user@m176-70-215-99.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 09:28:59 benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f230:bcde:1607:7245:2e0f] has joined #lisp 09:30:54 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:05 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 09:32:06 -!- weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:34:37 ZabaQ [~ZabaQ@86.63.2.14] has joined #lisp 09:35:39 -!- ashish [having@badti.me] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:37:07 ashish__ [having@badti.me] has joined #lisp 09:37:14 ken [~this@41.89.164.16] has joined #lisp 09:37:38 -!- ken is now known as Guest91199 09:37:40 -!- nug700_ [~nug700@174-26-143-14.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:38:00 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:38:02 I think I need "MOP For Dummies" 09:39:10 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:39:17 Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:40:28 ZabaQ: What's your problem? 09:41:21 loke: Reading code that makes extensive use of closer-mop 09:41:49 What code is that? 09:41:55 planks 09:42:41 ..but I think it's indicative of a more general problem. I need to internalise the MOP if I'm to make good use of it. 09:44:16 persistent-objects.lisp? 09:44:30 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:45:00 loke: yes.. 09:48:33 -!- agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:50:27 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 09:50:45 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 09:50:53 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 09:52:48 -!- sword [~sword@c-24-21-33-225.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:52:59 sword [~sword@c-24-21-33-225.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:14 -!- rootzlevel is now known as hpd 09:53:52 -!- neoncortex [~Aerolitus@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:56:58 are there any opencl wrappers/bindings? 09:57:36 only one i found is calx 09:57:42 but its not under development 09:58:27 -!- zajn [~zajn@108.205.50.54] has quit [Quit: zajn] 09:58:28 agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:48 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:59:09 and its for clojure 09:59:28 -!- benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f230:bcde:1607:7245:2e0f] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:02:09 -!- Ralt_ is now known as Ralt 10:04:14 -!- bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:07:10 bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:11:48 Munksgaard [~philip@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:12:03 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 10:13:59 pillton [~user@124-148-51-200.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:15:48 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:16:16 <|3b|> theos: there is https://github.com/3b/cl-opencl-3b but it isn't very active either 10:17:44 |3b| i see. thanks. can it be used for parallel programming on ati gpus? 10:18:58 -!- hugoduncan is now known as hugod 10:19:04 <|3b|> it does whatever opencl does (which includes atu gpu stuff) 10:19:28 -!- hugod is now known as Guest16337 10:19:47 nice. is it specific to any opencl version? or does it work with all? 10:20:14 -!- bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:20:48 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.249.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:21:06 <|3b|> not sure if it has bindings for opencl 1.2 stuff, since i mostly use nvidia which doesn't support 1.2... shouldn't be too hard to add if not though 10:21:23 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:21:53 thats awesome. thanks 10:22:44 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 10:22:57 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 10:23:35 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:16 <|3b|> theos: just pushed a branch with more recent code 10:30:30 :D 10:31:15 <|3b|> which was an attempt to improve the API with some clos stuff, but never got finished enough to merge to make official 10:31:54 *|3b|* mostly uses the branch for what little opencl stuff i've done recently, but that's been a while, so not really sure what state it is in 10:32:16 |3b| the hello world example is too big :| 10:33:50 <|3b|> which is that? 10:34:06 <|3b|> ah, examples/hello? 10:34:24 https://github.com/3b/cl-opencl-3b/blob/master/examples/hello.lisp 10:34:26 yes 10:35:38 <|3b|> well, looks like a good chunk of that is just printing out random stuff 10:36:27 alex_white [~alex@213.232.243.233] has joined #lisp 10:36:50 <|3b|> not sure if that could be simplified in current APIs or not 10:36:52 -!- par [~owls@unaffiliated/lordlicorice] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:37:13 par [~owls@unaffiliated/lordlicorice] has joined #lisp 10:37:57 what do you think about this? https://github.com/malkia/cl-opencl 10:37:58 -!- bg_ [~bg@2602:304:6898:cb49:65fe:76dd:9364:b07d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:38:32 its 4 yr old though 10:38:44 *|3b|* has seen it before, but don't really remember details 10:39:00 <|3b|> looking at it, it uses some specific implementation FFI rather than cffi 10:43:44 i see 10:45:22 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-1-106.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:51:46 -!- ryankarason [~rak@108-245-58-182.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:59:47 gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 11:07:26 -!- inobtainable03 [~inobtaina@185.25.87.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:09:03 ogamita [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:09:04 eff__ [~quassel@123.123.105.226] has joined #lisp 11:09:34 inobtainable03 [~inobtaina@185.25.87.35] has joined #lisp 11:11:36 Karl_dscc 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#lisp 12:58:40 brmj [444631d0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.70.49.208] has joined #lisp 12:59:16 -!- fogus|gone is now known as `fogus 12:59:55 -!- oudeis_ [~oudeis@109.67.150.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:01:19 -!- joneshf-laptop_ [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:04:34 p_l|omoikane [~pl@itr.hackerspace.pl] has joined #lisp 13:06:39 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 13:06:54 -!- loke_erc [~user@bb115-66-249-26.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:02 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:12:04 joast [~rick@cpe-24-160-56-92.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:16:54 -!- jangle_ [~jimmy1984@50.241.129.73] has quit [Quit: jangle_] 13:20:37 -!- froggey_ is now known as froggey 13:23:29 So I've been reading through practical common lisp. It's going pretty well, but eventially I'll want to read through some substantial existing code to get more of a feel for how it works. Does anyone have some well written, approachable open source project to point me towards, perhaps? 13:24:04 jangle [~jimmy1984@50.241.129.73] has joined #lisp 13:26:01 For practical libraries, you might try Edi Weiss: http://weitz.de/ 13:26:11 Haven't looked through much of his source code, but I use it every day 13:26:25 brmj 13:27:52 Er... Weitz 13:28:14 Thanks. 13:28:16 robsmoniker [uid6984@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sdhauflaxjvuczhc] has joined #lisp 13:28:37 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-237-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:16 billstclair: you could also mix the name as Edel 13:29:41 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:48 Edel isn't a name I've seen anywhere 13:29:51 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:29:51 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 13:30:08 See you guys 13:30:10 -!- ejbs [~user@2001:6b0:1:1df0:4120:b233:9643:c77f] has left #lisp 13:30:14 billstclair: i mean Edel Weiss sounds better 13:30:24 Hehe 13:30:42 Now I'll be singing that song for the rest of the morning 13:30:45 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-87-210.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:02 Better play some Zeppelin 13:31:37 mgile [~mgile@74.92.220.177] has joined #lisp 13:31:41 *billstclair* is listening to "Good Times Bad Times" by Led Zeppelin, from the album Celebration Day. 1007kbps Apple Lossless 13:31:45 Nobody home today, so I can crank it up 13:33:03 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:14 breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:41 Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:37 -!- nicdev` is now known as nicdev 13:37:18 xan_ [~xan@132.pool85-54-214.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 13:37:28 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@50.241.129.73] has quit [Quit: jangle] 13:38:12 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 13:41:03 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 13:43:19 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:45:05 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 13:45:50 _d3f [~gnu@79.172.193.111] has joined #lisp 13:47:14 -!- breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:47:36 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 13:49:49 -!- par [~owls@unaffiliated/lordlicorice] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:50:00 par [~owls@unaffiliated/lordlicorice] has joined #lisp 13:50:09 -!- igorw [~igorw@unaffiliated/igorw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:31 brmj: I'm reading gsharp, since I'll have to use parts of it in another program. 13:51:48 brmj: I can recommend gsharp as a well written lisp application! :-) 13:52:23 Thanks. 13:52:25 igorw [~igorw@li559-253.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 13:52:25 -!- igorw [~igorw@li559-253.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:52:25 igorw [~igorw@unaffiliated/igorw] has joined #lisp 13:53:10 On the other hand, it doesn't feel "substantial". It's quite short, for what it does. But that's the natural conciseness of lisp. 13:53:20 Perhaps a more substential code base would be maxima. 13:53:41 maxima has the ugliest cl code 13:53:42 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 13:53:46 i hear that maxima is the counterexample of a well written lisp application 13:53:52 Probably: it's old code. 13:54:03 (it's written by mathematicians) 13:54:35 brmj: Libraries written by Edi Weitz are generally highly regarded in this aspect (and others). 13:55:34 keltvek [~keltvek@unaffiliated/keltvek] has joined #lisp 13:56:23 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:56:40 segv- [~mb@95-91-241-46-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:57:21 http://marijnhaverbeke.nl/blog/common-lisp-monads.html making the rounds on HN 13:58:20 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:00:18 Yes, HN feeds on old stuff usually. More recent than stackoverflow, but still old stuff. If you want to be current, read news:comp.lang.lisp and irc://irc.freenode.org/#lisp :-) 14:00:28 Was hoping for an interesting conclusion as to why CL had never adopted many (any?) monad libraries. 14:00:31 The closest you can get to the web is planet lisp. 14:00:44 yeah, I follow planet lisp but it's updated so infrequently. :p 14:01:31 j_king: because monads are just a different way to look at things and don't solve any actual problems? 14:01:56 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 14:02:02 (or i'm just in denial for not learning them properly) 14:02:23 stassats`: after reading much of the literature I've come to that conclusion myself but a lot of smart people keep barking up that tree and my curiosity gets piqued 14:02:28 Actually, CLOS method combinations are the CL way to define monads! 14:02:39 We had monads all the way! 14:02:48 Blog about it 14:03:16 that's a good idea 14:04:52 harish [~harish@119.56.123.165] has joined #lisp 14:04:55 I thought that monads were a way of looking at things designed to take ways of solving things away from you. :-) 14:07:45 Nah, it's just an abstraction. 14:08:10 That's what abstractions do: they take (unessential) things away from you, so you can concentrate on the essential. 14:08:43 tylergoza [~tylergoza@72.29.34.246] has joined #lisp 14:14:22 ogamita: have you seen drewc's monad library, using interface-passing style (where Haskell would use type classes) ? 14:17:52 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:18:14 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:20:02 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-066-122.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:21 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 14:24:15 hi 14:25:48 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 14:28:25 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 14:28:56 -!- deego [deego@unaffiliated/deego] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:30:39 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 14:30:48 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:30:50 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Client Quit] 14:32:50 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:33:09 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:33:16 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:34:48 -!- justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 14:34:50 -!- nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:35:37 nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has joined #lisp 14:35:42 justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 14:36:42 -!- xristos [x@ns3.suspicious.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 261 seconds] 14:37:14 xristos [x@ns3.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 14:37:38 -!- xristos is now known as Guest82373 14:37:42 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 14:37:49 crocket [~crocket@unaffiliated/crocket] has joined #lisp 14:37:51 hi 14:38:03 I want to do GUI programming in one of lisp dialects. 14:38:06 http://www.cliki.net/GUI 14:38:10 Maybe Qt? 14:39:00 Roin [~florian@unaffiliated/roin] has joined #lisp 14:39:27 crocket: this is a channel for the Common Lisp dialect. Anyway, I would say that the best GUI library for CL is commonqt 14:39:34 WhiteWolf1776 [~WhiteWolf@unaffiliated/whitewolf1776] has joined #lisp 14:39:52 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 14:40:17 -!- _d3f [~gnu@79.172.193.111] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 14:40:43 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 14:46:19 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:46:27 -!- davorb-cellphone [~davorb-ce@194.47.245.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:46:27 -!- davorb [~davor@194.47.245.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:46:34 Denommus, Is it dead? 14:47:13 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:49:35 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 14:51:13 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.121.68] has joined #lisp 14:51:13 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.121.68] has quit [Changing host] 14:51:13 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 14:51:25 -!- Guest82373 is now known as xristos` 14:51:33 -!- xristos` is now known as xristos 14:54:35 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:54:43 -!- eeezkil [~eeezkil@unaffiliated/eeezkil] has quit [Quit: ^D] 14:55:48 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 14:56:07 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:00:14 -!- xan_ [~xan@132.pool85-54-214.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:00:21 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c02e-96.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:00:49 Denommus, ok 15:03:30 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:07:28 teggi [~teggi@113.173.4.29] has joined #lisp 15:09:23 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 15:09:44 -!- alex_white [~alex@213.232.243.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:10:31 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 15:12:14 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:15:28 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:15:39 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.249.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 15:17:07 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@firewall-dcd1.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 15:20:05 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-83-63.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:21:53 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-066-122.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:23:36 ikki [~ikki@201.165.168.17] has joined #lisp 15:24:49 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 15:25:08 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:27:52 ejbs [~user@h-30-123.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 15:28:22 Do any of you guys know a fun and short academical essay on anything Lisp-related? 15:28:29 peterhil [~peterhil@37-219-245-154.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:29:06 -!- WhiteWolf1776 [~WhiteWolf@unaffiliated/whitewolf1776] has left #lisp 15:29:10 I'm gonna do some kind of report for uni and I need a paper to read heh 15:29:41 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:29:54 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:29:57 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 15:30:14 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:32:26 The why of Y. 15:32:30 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-hqlpmqgyngweszhc] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:32:38 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:36:09 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-237-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:36:27 normanrichards [~normanric@12.185.76.29] has joined #lisp 15:36:32 ggole: http://www.cs.cornell.edu/courses/cs312/2002fa/lectures/lec27.pdf This? 15:37:04 www.dreamsongs.com/NewFiles/WhyOfY.pdf 15:37:15 (Might be the same, didn't check.) 15:39:11 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:26 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@12.185.76.29] has quit [Client Quit] 15:39:40 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:39:53 Did you try to access the file? Cuz I get no response 15:40:35 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:41:36 Also, if it is the same: a lecture+ powerpoint slides won't do, sorry but thanks anyway :) 15:41:55 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 15:41:59 -!- ZabaQ [~ZabaQ@86.63.2.14] has left #lisp 15:42:12 Hmm, dead for me too. 15:42:46 Fare: I've had a look at Drew's library a few months ago. My mind is still not acquainted enough to monads to have understood it entirely :-( I guess I'll have to learn Haskell in the text to get them ;-) 15:43:33 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.173.4.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:43:53 ejbs: I would advise: http://www.xach.com/lisp/lispvan-2008-02-28.pdf 15:44:20 ejbs: "To Nreverse When Consing a List or By Pointer Manipulation, To Avoid It; That Is the Question" by Richard Waters (part of TR93-17.pdf) 15:44:40 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 15:44:59 Well, with considerations on modification of the microcode to optimize such lisp operations, why not? 15:45:13 After all, nowadays you can install new microcode in Intel processors when you boot. 15:45:39 I don't know if it's documented, but it would be nice to boot an Intel processor into a Lisp Machine! :-) 15:45:45 ogamita: Hehe, I've read that one. A lot of fun. 15:46:01 Vivitron: Sounds cool, I'll check it out 15:47:08 Alright... Just gotta get that ACM-license (or whatever it is) from Uni. Thanks guys! 15:47:29 bg451 [~bg451@64.62.178.135] has joined #lisp 15:48:05 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4574ed7b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:58 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-yhaublhxizkxcfdc] has joined #lisp 15:52:01 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:53:04 ubikation [~ubikation@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:39 zajn [~zajn@108.205.50.54] has joined #lisp 15:59:15 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 16:00:44 -!- shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-zkepjbceysvbqogp] has quit [Quit: shridhar] 16:00:47 LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:00:50 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-yhaublhxizkxcfdc] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:01:17 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:03:20 statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-226-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:08 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:36 -!- Guest16337 is now known as hugod 16:08:03 masondesu [~textual@216.59.46.254] has joined #lisp 16:08:06 -!- hugod is now known as Guest50073 16:10:53 -!- Guest50073 is now known as hugoduncan 16:10:53 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has joined #lisp 16:10:56 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:15 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:15:33 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@37-219-245-154.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:19:24 -!- masondesu [~textual@216.59.46.254] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:22:48 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-jjzgaeexkqthqccc] has joined #lisp 16:24:39 -!- bg451 [~bg451@64.62.178.135] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:45 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:29:09 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 16:29:42 -!- ogamita [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:29:47 Aramur [~arare@9.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:50 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:37:33 Wukix [~user@173-228-55-74.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:37 kilo [~kilo@unaffiliated/kil0] has joined #lisp 16:42:25 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.24.177] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 16:42:29 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: Odchzm] 16:43:44 ckoch786___S [~ckoch786@PAT98.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 16:43:47 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: patrickwonders] 16:50:25 -!- ezakimak [~nick@72.250.219.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:51:21 -!- seggy [c6fce60f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.252.230.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:52:33 ebobby [~fms@38.99.41.44] has joined #lisp 16:53:13 smazga [~Adium@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:53:57 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-1-106.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:54:09 -!- mv2devnul [~markv@host-206-54-202-223.entouch.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:54:27 desophos [~desophos@n138h11.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 16:54:32 oudeis [~oudeis@109.67.150.3] has joined #lisp 16:54:40 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.114] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:55:09 mv2devnul [~markv@host-206-54-202-223.entouch.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:49 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.114] has joined #lisp 16:56:47 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 16:58:46 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-84-44-153-201.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:58:48 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 17:00:12 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:00:21 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 17:02:57 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 17:03:39 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:04:43 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - 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I wasn't around for that discussion sadly. 18:33:03 ah 18:33:07 WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT. 18:33:11 yes 18:33:24 try reading it, it may also lead to other relevant stuff..... 18:33:35 How do I read it? 18:33:39 -!- mgile [~mgile@74.92.220.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:33:43 clhs ? 18:33:43 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for ?. 18:33:47 or your implementations docs 18:33:52 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 18:34:05 I'm writing my own implementation - the only implementation docs are in my head. 18:34:07 with-compilation-unit ? 18:34:07 drmeister: you don't 18:34:13 ? with-compilation-unit 18:34:24 clhs ? with-compilation-unit 18:34:28 drmeister: see uiop:concatenate-fasls 18:34:28 Fare - hi - I don't what? 18:34:33 hmmmm 18:34:34 I mean, combine-fasls 18:34:49 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:06 ASDF does the virtual W-C-U around system compilation and the optional FASL combination 18:35:17 ASDF 3 18:35:32 btw, I'm sure the new maintainer is eager to merge your patches to ASDF 3. 18:36:06 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B298A49.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:37:38 micom [~micom@unaffiliated/micom] has joined #lisp 18:38:53 hello guys, sorry for sucha a noob question, is there any functional language with braces style like in c++ function{body} 18:39:19 yep, javascript for instance 18:39:52 ok, that was stupid, maybe more, like haskell ? 18:40:03 How ASDF do that in a system independent way? For instance, my compiler generates LLVM bitcode files that I can further compile to ".o" files and those I can link into a single ".dylib" or ".so" file. I want to compile a whole bunch of .lisp files into one .dylib file - what is the best Common Lisp idiom for that? 18:40:07 micom: Dylan is a lisp-like language, but that probably doesn't qualify as functional 18:40:29 wondering why most of them missing braces 18:40:41 We lispers like our parens and our macros 18:40:52 why? 18:40:53 Dylan has macros, too, but they take a little getting used to 18:41:12 Program is data 18:41:25 bg451 [~bg451@64.62.178.135] has joined #lisp 18:41:34 micom: what are you looking for, functions as first class citizens, macros, or side-effect free programming? 18:41:56 Java gets you braces, and, finally, clozures 18:42:13 looking to learn first functional language, but i have languages without braces around the functions 18:42:26 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:42:29 Actually, they've had clozures for a while, as methods, but with read-only closed-over variables, for no good reason that I've ever heard 18:42:59 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 18:43:10 But capisce's question remains, how do you define "functional" 18:43:11 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 18:43:12 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:43:22 przl [~przlrkt@p5B298A49.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:43:38 drmeister: lots of #+ in defun combine-fasls 18:44:01 pvaneynd [~pvaneynd@213.219.142.141.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:21 ok one question 18:44:27 drmeister: the best common-lisp idiom is (asdf:oos 'asdf:fasl-op :yoursystem) 18:44:30 what is #+nil and #-nil ? 18:44:30 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:44 unconditionally ? always ? 18:44:44 -!- jaimef_ [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:44:50 oleo: a bad idea. Use #+(or) and #+(and) 18:44:57 why ? 18:45:26 so they amount to those you wrote ? 18:45:32 i will explain it in other way, i do know c++ i think at good level, now i want to improve my way of thinking by meeting new approach to programming - functional approach , that's what i expect from it, totally different approach which will help me in the future ( in example i will look at the problems from other perspective) 18:45:59 well, there are several totally different approaches 18:46:00 micom: But you want to use a similar syntax to the one you're used to? Fuggedaboot it 18:46:09 #+nil is defined in JonL's 1979 New Implementation of Lisp. 18:46:21 psh 18:46:26 that's why i hate old python in example, no braces 18:46:40 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@87-93-75-234.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:46:41 micom: Just learn Haskell, deal with the syntax. The syntax probably works very well for the language. Braces sucks anyway (my opinion) 18:46:46 ok lets say that its not possible to find one with braces, what whould you recommend me in other way? 18:46:48 micom: Also, take this #haskell 18:46:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:47:00 micom: Haskell. 18:47:01 micom: Oz, Haskell, Factor, Prolog for instance offer different approaches to programming 18:47:06 haskell is definitely worth knowing, even if you don't use it 18:47:13 If I were dictator, I'd make it an error to ever define a "nil" feature. #+nil and #-nil are so much easier than #+(or) and #+(and) 18:47:36 Since I'm not dictator, I can just tell everyone that they should not use the New Implementation of Lisp, and thus not worry about it. :) 18:47:39 ok, guys, totally dont know, which is better haskell, oz, factor, prolog 18:47:57 better for what? 18:48:04 Haskell reminds me of something... I've heard that some people think that Common Lisp's type system sucks, but I've never heard why. Do you guys have any idea what's up with that? 18:48:06 opening your eyes to new worlds? 18:48:11 oz supersedes prolog 18:48:56 factor's main contributions are in syntax and system rather than language semantics. 18:49:13 Which is better, English, Russian, Chinese, or Navajo? 18:49:27 Esperanto 18:49:34 to hit on hot chicks, definitely Russian. 18:49:36 -!- agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:50:02 Or Swedish 18:50:16 -!- inobtainable03 [~inobtaina@185.25.87.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:50:21 not Esperanto 18:50:52 billstclair: Russian chicks are probably easier than Swedish ones. 18:51:10 And less likely to accuse you of rape 18:51:18 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.4] 18:51:36 -!- bg451 [~bg451@64.62.178.135] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51:43 Hoh! Ok, back to Lisp. 18:51:44 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 18:52:23 -!- micom [~micom@unaffiliated/micom] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:52:29 inobtainable03 [~inobtaina@185.25.87.136] has joined #lisp 18:52:53 foom: so the implementation is allowed to issue dragons from your nose if you (push :nil *features*) ? 18:53:18 or is its featurep just going to ignore it? 18:54:18 Fare: "it is undefined if you". A nice impl could ignore it for you, but existing CL impls of course don't, that's fine too. Just don't do it. 18:54:40 peterhil [~peterhil@87-93-75-234.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:57:43 _d3f [~gnu@nl1.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 18:58:43 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.101] has joined #lisp 18:58:53 -!- inobtainable03 [~inobtaina@185.25.87.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:00:02 -!- pvaneynd [~pvaneynd@213.219.142.141.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 19:00:16 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B298A49.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:02:59 -!- ashish__ is now known as ashish 19:04:51 micom [~micom@unaffiliated/micom] has joined #lisp 19:06:42 pvaneynd [~pvaneynd@213.219.142.141.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:19 przl [~przlrkt@p5B298A49.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:08:48 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.65.131] has joined #lisp 19:09:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.65.131] has quit [Changing host] 19:09:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 19:13:32 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:15:33 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 19:15:47 jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:16:26 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@87-93-75-234.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 19:16:31 -!- mv2devnul [~markv@host-206-54-202-223.entouch.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:16:51 mv2devnul [~markv@host-206-54-202-223.entouch.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:39 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 19:19:35 -!- zajn [~zajn@108.205.50.54] has quit [Quit: zajn] 19:19:52 simatchka [~simatchka@80.79.159.234] has joined #lisp 19:20:13 -!- simatchka [~simatchka@80.79.159.234] has left #lisp 19:20:28 -!- _d3f [~gnu@nl1.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 19:21:51 oudeis [~oudeis@109.67.150.3] has joined #lisp 19:24:57 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:25:40 patrickwonders_ [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 19:25:51 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:25:51 -!- patrickwonders_ is now known as patrickwonders 19:26:50 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:28:17 Yang__ [~Yang@60.191.2.238] has joined #lisp 19:31:17 -!- joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:31:28 jangle [~jimmy1984@50.241.129.73] has joined #lisp 19:31:40 -!- Yang_ [~Yang@60.191.2.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:32:04 -!- sontek [~sontek@sontek.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:32:30 -!- mv2devnul [~markv@host-206-54-202-223.entouch.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:32:43 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 19:33:24 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:33:56 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:00 -!- photex [~photex@192.241.224.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:36:05 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@statlerhotel.fltg.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:36:18 ckoch786___S [~ckoch786@PAT98.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 19:36:22 Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat97.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:37:14 joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has joined #lisp 19:37:27 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 19:38:01 sontek [~sontek@sontek.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:06 mgile_ [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:13 normanrichards [~normanric@adsl-67-64-66-5.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:55 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:39:09 -!- pvaneynd [~pvaneynd@213.219.142.141.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:39:25 photex [~photex@192.241.224.216] has joined #lisp 19:40:45 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.197.25] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 19:41:52 -!- ggole [~ggole@58-7-131-97.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 19:42:04 pvaneynd [~pvaneynd@2a02:578:8500:701::2] has joined #lisp 19:43:12 -!- smazga [~Adium@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:43:46 mv2devnul [~markv@host-206-54-202-223.entouch.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:58 -!- pvaneynd [~pvaneynd@2a02:578:8500:701::2] has quit [Client Quit] 19:44:44 ltbarcly [~textual@statlerhotel.fltg.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:14 k0001 [~k0001@host19.190-226-192.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:48:24 can I evaluate a macro at runtime? 19:48:50 ? 19:48:50 (eval form) 19:49:03 you should probably expand on what you mean, though 19:49:23 cl-who defines macros used like (with-html-output (out) (:html (:body "foo"))) 19:49:52 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:49:52 clhs macro-function 19:49:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_macro_.htm 19:49:54 ? 19:49:59 I want to build and manipulate the tree at run-time though 19:50:06 And you want to take a list like '(:html (:body ...)) and get html out of it, eh 19:50:07 and then pass it to with-html-output 19:50:12 that's right :) 19:50:16 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:50:31 pvaneynd [~pvaneynd@2a02:578:8500:701::2] has joined #lisp 19:51:04 I think cl-who is not really designed for that. 19:51:24 shame, it comes kind of close 19:51:47 I guess I'll generate my own html *sniff* 19:51:59 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@statlerhotel.fltg.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:52:34 agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:38 inobtainable03 [~inobtaina@185.25.87.91] has joined #lisp 19:59:19 bg451 [~bg451@64.62.178.135] has joined #lisp 20:00:05 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.166.52] has joined #lisp 20:01:01 francogrex [~user@29.89-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:02:10 gleag_ [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 20:02:36 I am trying to run cl-bench but somehow on sbcl I am getting "Heap exhausted (no more space for allocation" "There are still 31506432 bytes available; the request was for 36000016 bytes" I know though that in the past I had this error but managed to get rid of it though i can't recall how 20:02:36 francogrex, memo from pjb: of course I did. That's how most of that library came to be: to refer the next newbie to it later. 20:02:48 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03:05 smazga [~Adium@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:03:42 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:04:55 ltbarcly [~textual@nat-128-84-124-0-523.cit.cornell.edu] has joined #lisp 20:05:04 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:05:05 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 20:05:27 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 20:05:57 how can I increase the heap size? 20:05:58 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:06:00 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B298A49.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:06:24 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:07:10 was is sbcl --dynamic-space= ... ? 20:08:55 that's it basically 20:09:01 heap 20:09:39 but i fear the sbcl --dynamic-space-size will get fixed at build-time of your sbcl for example.... 20:09:48 at least it does here... 20:10:05 ignore oleo, go for it 20:10:40 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:27 -!- genkinodenki [~migrayn@dsl-vntbrasgw1-50dc7f-98.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:11:36 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 20:12:27 arnsa [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 20:12:50 tertl3-laptop [~tertl3-la@75.139.64.89] has joined #lisp 20:13:06 let's see 20:14:16 -!- bg451 [~bg451@64.62.178.135] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:14:51 -!- agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:15:30 -!- mv2devnul [~markv@host-206-54-202-223.entouch.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:16:46 grrr --dynamic-space-size argument is out of range: 3000 20:16:53 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:17:43 do you have that much ram 20:20:18 apparently not.. not even 1.5G 20:21:00 m4dnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 20:21:36 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:35 bg451 [~bg451@64.62.178.135] has joined #lisp 20:23:04 it's ridiculous I have 2G of ram and I am not able to alloc 1 20:23:22 you're trying to allocate three... 20:23:27 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.166.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:23:39 macdice [~user@46-65-10-191.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:23:43 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.166.52] has joined #lisp 20:23:55 bike i went down to 1: ensure_space: failed to validate 1048576000 bytes at 0x22300000 20:24:09 have you kernel/user 3:1 ? 20:24:16 or 1:3 ? 20:24:18 -!- macdice [~user@46-65-10-191.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 20:24:24 uhuh 20:24:31 -!- macdice` [~user@46-65-10-191.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:24:31 francogrex: well probably there are a few other things on your system that would like a smidgen of memory 20:24:39 -!- `fogus is now known as fogus|gone 20:24:47 seems so 20:24:53 maybe firefox ? 20:24:57 lol 20:25:07 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.114] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:25:07 macdice [~user@46-65-10-191.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:25:28 -!- inobtainable03 [~inobtaina@185.25.87.91] has quit [Quit: inobtainable03] 20:25:30 maybe emacs. ok guys I'll need to kill you now to free space 20:25:33 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25:46 that's not going to help 20:26:16 it might :) 20:26:20 -!- francogrex [~user@29.89-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: BOOM] 20:26:23 it's really not 20:26:37 he actually did it, huh. 20:27:04 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[~textual@nat-128-84-124-0-523.cit.cornell.edu] has joined #lisp 21:10:43 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@nat-128-84-124-0-523.cit.cornell.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 21:11:02 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@109.67.150.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:11:28 przl [~przlrkt@p5B298A49.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:11:52 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.166.52] has quit [] 21:12:15 -!- Yang__ [~Yang@60.191.2.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:12:44 -!- tertl3-laptop [~tertl3-la@75.139.64.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:13:09 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:18 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:13:44 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:56 AeQue [~other@94.25.229.117] has joined #lisp 21:13:59 hi 21:14:14 i'm bored what fun things can i do with lisp? 21:14:36 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@adsl-67-64-66-5.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [] 21:15:06 well, actually i'm not bored but need to ditract my self from overly complicaed things 21:15:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-28-8.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:15:49 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.197.25] has joined #lisp 21:16:08 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B298A49.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:16:46 is lisp suitable for scientific computing? 21:17:41 i mean atm i need to manipulate really huge datastructures and i need it to be as performant as possible 21:18:24 i failed to achieve this with haskell, same algorythm on haskell and cpp are like heaven and hell in terms of perf 21:18:50 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-87-210.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:18:54 its really frustrating, i want fast generated code, and i want lisp 21:19:07 but not sure if its achieveable 21:20:24 guys 21:20:34 tell me what do you think 21:21:03 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: brb] 21:21:35 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 21:23:28 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:24:43 ubikation [~ubikation@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:27 you make me think iam right 21:26:43 AeQue: scientific computing is always hard 21:26:59 depends on what you mean by "huge" 21:27:29 usually if you have actually huge datasets or really strict performance requirements, you will need to rewrite parts of your language 21:27:38 ITA does that for their fare calculation system 21:27:42 -!- mv2devnul [~markv@host-206-54-202-223.entouch.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:29:03 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 21:29:32 stassats`: eww, Maxima code is so awful 21:29:47 mathrick: i have to deal with really large graphs with insertion rate of 10k+ vertices(with edges so it's about 50k+ edges i think) in less of the second, for now i'm strugling with cpp but its a pain 21:29:55 what I'm most upset about is not just that their code is ugly, but that there's also no API whatsoever for Lisp 21:30:05 you can program Maxima only from within Maxima 21:30:12 no real sensible way to call it from Lisp 21:30:18 andreh [~andreh@177.133.55.216] has joined #lisp 21:30:27 i did call it from lisp 21:30:30 that's why embeddable-maxima exists*, i guess 21:30:30 ? 21:31:09 Maxima can be called from lisp, I've done it (but not in a long time). 21:32:06 -!- andreh [~andreh@177.133.55.216] has quit [Client Quit] 21:32:11 I'm sure you can do it if you try really hard; what I mean is that it's not supposed to be done and you have to jump from a stupid amount of hoops to massage things into their calling convention 21:32:36 also the insane, partially case-sensitive symbol names 21:33:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:34:18 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-26-137-12.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:34:26 AeQue: don't expect it to be easy. If you deal with hard problems, they will remain hard, but might be just tractable. In particular, CL implementations usually have very good FFI support, and you can always employ macrology to generate code in another language where everything else fails 21:35:18 SBCL is very good at optimising (at the cost of being slow to compile) and can generate numerical code matching raw C, in addition to extremely well-supported FFI 21:35:22 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 21:35:36 -!- desophos [~desophos@n138h11.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:35:51 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-136-179.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:19 mathrick: wise words, thank you, i think i can try to porting parts of app to lisp when cpp frustration hits the limit 21:38:06 zajn [~zajn@136.152.142.143] has joined #lisp 21:38:18 AeQue: tpd2 is an example of rewriting parts of the language (strings and methods) to achieve speeds exceeding that of C: http://john.freml.in/teepeedee2-c10k 21:40:27 >rewriting parts of the language 21:40:32 yeah, well 21:40:58 mv2devnul [~markv@host-206-54-202-223.entouch.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:22 mathrick: wow, thats impressive 21:41:24 -!- prxq__ [~mommer@mnhm-590c2be3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:41:38 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 21:41:50 AeQue: as for macrology, it's surprisingly not that hard. I've written a small compiler for an embedded language (granted, it was emitting CL, so that was easier) in an afternoon. Even if you emit another language, you can be up and running very quickly if you just pick your targets wisely, because all the annoying parts of the compiler are mostly done for you already 21:42:32 Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:42:40 stassats`: meh, sometimes a programmer's gotta do what a programmer's gotta do. ITA's QPX ain't pretty either and basically redoes parts of CL for speed 21:43:54 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat97.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:44:05 i redid parts too, but that doesn't sound like an argument for the language 21:44:16 AeQue: also by Fremlin is http://cl-www.msi.co.jp/projects/manardb/index.html, which is for storing big things outside the Lisp GC 21:44:33 "it's fast, just gotta rewrite a couple of things in C and asm" 21:44:47 tpd2 rewrites them in CL 21:45:38 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.101] has joined #lisp 21:46:06 same thing 21:47:49 sure it's better not to have to do it, but every time you push the limits of what can be done, something has to give. If the language can be reasonably hammered into it, that's already a plus 21:49:30 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:11 AeQue: http://john.freml.in/lisp-object-store-manardb <-- short overview of the motivations behind manardb. It might be interesting for you, since it's also lots of data that needs to be manageable from Lisp 21:50:14 and this usually means sticking only with one implementation 21:50:33 mathrick: thanks a lot for great insights! 21:50:50 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:50:54 -!- fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:50:56 can be summarized as "if you're experienced and know what you're doing, you can spend arbitrary amount of time and make it arbitrary faster" 21:51:02 stassats`: if you have performance-critical code, you stick to one implementation anyway. It's not like you can move from SBCL to CLISP, even without rewriting strings, and expect things to remain equally fast 21:51:31 yeah, that's pretty much where I started. "Scientific computing is always hard" 21:52:58 i make my code faster by making SBCL faster, because otherwise it's not hard enough 21:54:20 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@50.241.129.73] has quit [Quit: jangle] 21:55:21 mathrick: I'm not sure about the internals of QPX, but the way I understood it, the non-CL parts were accessors for a mmapped semi-constant database. Pretty much the thing you can't do in portable CL anyway since you don't have PEEK in ANSI CL. 21:55:51 aye 21:56:25 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:30 gleag: though from what I understand, they also have a very particular coding style for QPX, because it does a lot of things in ugly but fast ways 21:57:21 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:44 ryankarason [~rak@108-245-58-182.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:18 -!- specters52 [~specters5@185.25.87.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:01:56 -!- tylergoza [~tylergoza@72.29.34.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:02:30 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:03:05 -!- AeQue [~other@94.25.229.117] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:06:50 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:10:35 -!- jsnell_ [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:11:29 jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:31 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.101] has joined #lisp 22:12:53 ISF [~ivan@187.64.222.94] has joined #lisp 22:16:16 ckoch786 [~cory@107-219-7-73.lightspeed.toldoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:48 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzZ] 22:20:25 -!- Natch [~Natch@85.225.206.205] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:08 Natch [~Natch@c-cdcee155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:25:34 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - 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PATHNAMEs are awesome. 23:29:20 they are underspcefied 23:29:36 making them unusable across different implementation or platforms 23:29:53 -!- ineiros_ [~itniemin@bayesianconspiracy.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:30:01 ineiros [~itniemin@bayesianconspiracy.org] has joined #lisp 23:30:07 and some things, which modern file system possess, are not specified at all 23:30:59 I think that abstract pathname are reasonable for a list filesystem, but otherwise ... 23:31:05 er, lisp. 23:31:40 Do macro environments have dynamic extent? 23:31:52 That is, can I save a form and its macro environment for later? 23:32:15 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:32:26 Nonetheless - they are awesome. I'm generating lists of ".lisp" source pathnames and then using mapcar to convert them all to ".bc" pathnames and then converting them wholesale to ".o" pathnames. 23:33:03 you are easily amused 23:33:21 tee hee 23:33:43 quotemstr: yes 23:34:40 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@109.67.150.3] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:36:41 Compared to using c-strings or boost::filesystem they are dreamy. 23:36:51 (that would imply "no" for the second question) 23:37:48 -!- LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:38:03 ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:49 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:40:24 -!- tertl3-laptop [~tertl3-la@75.139.64.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:41:02 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-cdcee155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:42:44 drmeister: that's not a high bar 23:45:02 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.108.142] 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[~bubo@91.224.149.58] has joined #lisp 09:55:27 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 09:56:51 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124.169.153.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:59:07 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 10:03:23 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:04:27 -!- eff__ is now known as effy 10:05:07 ssqq [~perlvim@221.4.142.90] has joined #lisp 10:07:35 sin293 [~user@171.121.19.73] has joined #lisp 10:12:30 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 10:13:02 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Client Quit] 10:13:07 -!- sin293 [~user@171.121.19.73] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:13:35 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 10:13:42 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 10:17:07 benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f243:b920:7a6d:be39:2679] has joined #lisp 10:19:06 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 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has joined #lisp 10:40:25 -!- benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f243:b920:7a6d:be39:2679] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 10:44:21 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-23-26-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:44:57 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-23-26-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:47:10 Hello, CFFI question: How can i create C struct in lisp and pass it by value to C function using cffi-libffi? E.g i have a C struct Point { int x; int y} and function move(Point point). 10:58:03 -!- robsmoniker [uid6984@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wlkrgeapkhjebubv] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:58:34 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:58:42 -!- fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:58:42 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:42 ejbs [~user@h-30-123.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 10:58:42 I'm writing a macro that needs to produce the form `("string" . ,symbol) ; how do I keep the comma in that list during macroexpansion? My guess is that I need to quote it somehow 10:59:00 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 11:03:41 fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:04:13 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:04:48 '`("string" . ,symbol) ? 11:06:54 munge [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:07:02 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 11:07:30 Zhivago: Also, the string and symbol are accessed through (cadr c) and (car c), so that won't work 11:07:42 zophy [~sy@host-8-35-107-208-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:33 Um, so why do you want to keep the comma? 11:08:40 http://paste.lisp.org/display/139092 11:08:47 Zhivago is that normal there ? 11:08:54 i found it in a CS book 11:09:27 using sum as the function name "and" as a local variable ? 11:09:30 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 11:09:44 That's not C. 11:09:49 It might be pascal. 11:09:52 heh 11:10:01 well i already corrected it 11:10:02 Well, not pascal. 11:10:11 Some pseudo-code? 11:10:16 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:10:17 no 11:10:42 maybe some not tested ...... snippet 11:10:46 Zhivago: Because it generates the following: (push `(string ,symbol)) where symbol is bound to something :) 11:10:49 why #lisp then? 11:11:07 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29811B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:11:28 ejbs: It sounds like you're trying to do something that's a bad idea. 11:11:39 -!- bulibuta [~bulibuta@irofti.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:11:45 Maybe you should go back a step and ask yourself what problem you're really trying to solve here. 11:13:06 Really? The problem I'm trying to solve is just extremely repetitive code which could be replaced with a macro. I *could* always do it with regular functions, but I dunno if that's necessarily nicer than with a macro 11:14:03 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29811B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:15:41 `("string" ,',evalled) 11:15:56 Or if you know the symbol, you can just quote the whole thing. 11:16:16 Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:59 `(when ,(car c) 11:18:59 (push (,(cadr c) . ,(car c)) params)))) <- this is my current expansion code 11:19:26 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:19:58 So (foo . bar) is supposed to appear in the expansion? That doesn't seem right. 11:20:43 Nah, it's not correct yet. An example expansion would be (when bar (push `(bar . ,foo) params)) 11:20:52 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29811B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:21:10 Oh, I see. 11:22:14 [SLB]` [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 11:25:03 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:25:03 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 11:27:39 -!- _d3f [~gnu@nl1.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: ________ He's dead.] 11:28:16 (WHEN BEFORE (PUSH ("before" SB-IMPL::BACKQ-LIST 'QUOTE BEFORE) PARAMS)) - Did I just get the correct expansion? SBCL isn't Pretty-printing properly 11:30:57 ejbs: that doesn't look right 11:31:48 can't you just paste your macro? and how it's used and what you want in the end? 11:32:25 Sure, one moment (I'll use paste.lisp) 11:35:36 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:36:22 http://paste.lisp.org/display/139095 11:36:35 echo-area [~user@111.196.3.92] has joined #lisp 11:39:20 ejbs: what about (push `(,',(cadr c) . ,,(car c)) params) ? 11:40:18 if double backqoute are hard for you, you can always use lists 11:40:25 errr, LIST 11:41:20 as in (push (cons ,(cadr c) ,(car c))) 11:41:39 protip: (string-downcase (symbol-name c)) == (string-downcase c) 11:41:48 stassats: That gives me (the firs tone) (when c (push `("c" ,@c) params)) 11:42:00 Oh hey, didn't know that 11:42:19 and `("c" ,@c) is what you want 11:43:13 Because that's equivalent to `("c" . ,c) I assume? 11:43:21 yes 11:43:36 Oh wait, yeah. I can see that. Alright, thank you! 11:44:20 (a b . (c d)) == (a b c d) and (a b ,@(c d)) == (a b c d) 11:45:14 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-99-207.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:46:04 -!- Guest69422 [x@ns3.suspicious.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:47:00 is it possible to use *posix-argv* (sbcl) when running with --script 11:47:03 it seems to be undefined 11:47:21 it is possible 11:47:24 you're accessing it from the wrong pacakge 11:47:30 ejbs: although, the clhs says it's not actually equivalent 11:47:50 ejbs: it may be interpreted that way, but not necessary 11:48:08 "`((,a b) ,c ,@d) will be interpreted as if it were (append (list (append (list a) (list 'b) 'nil)) (list c) d 'nil)" 11:48:19 xristos [x@ns3.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 11:48:20 that nil at the end breaks the equivalence 11:48:34 -!- xristos is now known as Guest8081 11:48:41 stassats: ah, which package do I need 11:48:58 nvm, I see 11:50:54 francogrex [~user@91.179.192.138] has joined #lisp 11:51:18 This is nice: http://paste.lisp.org/display/139096 11:51:29 let me guess, is that assembly code? 11:51:30 arnsa [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:51:50 haha, not any. It's ARM 11:51:53 and ccl 11:52:14 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:52:20 i guessed right, i demand a prize 11:52:39 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:52:40 name it 11:52:50 no more asm code in #lisp! 11:52:54 ok 11:52:55 (ha-ha) 11:53:03 i'm semi joking 11:53:20 gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 11:53:36 it's ok was meant to #asm primarily but 11:53:51 at least something more involved, anybody can stuff a bunch of binary digits into memory and call it 11:55:24 it will come slowly I hope. understanding ARM wouldn't this be the main step into porting stuff there? 11:55:49 porting which stuff? 11:56:07 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 11:56:19 other lisp implementations for example 11:56:38 it's one piece of the puzzle, yes 11:57:00 understanding the implementations in question and the software platform is required too 11:57:08 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-32-35.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:57:31 sure I am not pretending I will be able to start doing it. 11:58:27 the more I play around with the small devices the more I realize they're too small and impractical to so anything worthwhile 11:59:38 let's wait for more powerful arms 12:00:30 or don't do anything and succumb to Intel hegemony 12:00:34 Bear arms, maybe 12:01:24 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 12:01:58 imagine ABCL on raspberry pi, slow just got slower 12:02:54 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:56 not only the platform, but also the size. I think a laptop / ipad is as small as it get get to be practical for some programmers I mean not to develop for it, but ON it 12:03:49 ipad without a keyboard is not practical either 12:04:05 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:18 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:04:18 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 12:04:23 There are lisp environments for the ipad 12:04:35 (Though not terribly serious ones) 12:04:51 true. so probably developing *for* those small gadgets maybe useful 12:05:15 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:07:10 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f693e2.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:07:40 prxq [~mommer@x2f693e2.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 12:07:55 leo2007 [~leo@123.115.243.132] has joined #lisp 12:08:17 -!- songzq [~perlvim@221.4.142.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:10:29 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:11:24 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 12:13:11 something that's not assembly but still nice: https://github.com/tkych/cl-spark 12:14:32 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schn ist] 12:15:02 I'm looking forward to glasses with gloves. 12:20:55 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 12:21:37 Actually, I hear of blind programmers doing some decent things with voice input for programming. 12:21:46 I should get into android enough to try that out. 12:22:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:23:11 Bah, anybody could use voice input, not just blind programmers. ;) 12:23:36 I can see "double you double you see double you open ex close esc colon double you queue" working out ok. 12:23:49 Sure, but they have more incentive. 12:24:21 The trick would be getting the voice equivalent of hackers' keyboard. 12:24:35 Well, they also have more incentive for BCI. 12:25:01 That might be even cooler one day. 12:25:25 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:25:57 Although I must admit that the idea of voice programming is probably neater for Lisp than for other languages (structured editing, you see) 12:26:03 What is BCI? 12:26:13 Brain-Computer Interface. 12:26:17 Ah. 12:26:44 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29811B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:27:00 mikeit [~mikeit@net-93-65-150-84.cust.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 12:31:03 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29811B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:32:29 -!- awygle1 [~Andrew@50.46.151.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:32:52 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 12:33:10 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:33:42 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:34:46 i would like voice programming so you can code while running 12:35:19 -!- sauerkrause [~krause@cpe-24-55-25-199.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:35:58 -!- round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:36:32 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:37:13 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:39:35 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:42:24 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 12:42:51 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 12:44:56 code while driving 12:49:46 genkinodenki [~migrayn@dsl-vntbrasgw1-50dc7f-98.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 12:51:14 sabra [~sabra@67.174.222.215] has joined #lisp 12:54:31 jewel [~jewel@105-236-99-207.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:56:52 francogrex: Just connect the steering wheel to Dasher! ;-) 12:58:33 robsmoniker [uid6984@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nuuvdwhwuuouqvfz] has joined #lisp 13:00:14 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 13:04:14 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 13:09:42 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:d400:8109:d68e:e2c8:f1ca] has joined #lisp 13:12:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:14:17 mc40 [~mc40@146.255.107.98] has joined #lisp 13:15:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:16:49 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:17:54 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 13:20:25 -!- effy [~quassel@114.253.35.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:20:50 arnas [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 13:21:00 -!- arnas [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Client Quit] 13:22:26 -!- arnsa [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:23:36 eff [~quassel@123.118.174.72] has joined #lisp 13:25:55 -!- mc40 [~mc40@146.255.107.98] has quit [Quit: mc40] 13:25:59 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:26:37 -!- eff [~quassel@123.118.174.72] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:30:27 eff [~quassel@123.118.174.72] has joined #lisp 13:31:10 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 13:31:20 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:31:37 arnsa [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 13:33:48 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-109-65-105-19.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:37 -!- Joreji [~thomas@80.237.156.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:37:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:39:28 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:42:22 -!- eff is now known as effy 13:43:33 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:45:09 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.115.243.132] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 13:45:28 this is really simple (or it should be), but I can't figure out why I'm getting "package 'future' undefined" errors with this: http://pastie.org/8346369 13:45:37 does anyone have an idea? 13:45:44 parenscript btw 13:46:54 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:47:04 -!- ypyf` [~user@59.38.142.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 13:47:21 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:47:27 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 13:47:57 maybe I'm missing the point of packages in parenscript 13:48:30 tyc20 [~tyc20@110-175-226-225.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:48:49 -!- tyc20 [~tyc20@110-175-226-225.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 13:50:22 tyc [~user@110-175-226-225.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:51:59 maxter_ [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:23 what is package "future" supposed to do, 13:54:25 ? 13:55:30 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 13:55:35 isaacbw: that's parenscript and not common lisp? 13:55:44 -!- maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:55:48 can you paste the error too? 13:56:23 are you sure you want it in lower case? 13:56:33 see /parenscript-2.5/t/ 13:57:03 also what you pasted is not part of parenscript iself. So good to explain what you are doing 13:57:11 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:58:44 here's the error: http://pastie.org/8346392 I'm trying to figure out package definition in general. This specific package doesn't matter much 13:59:05 francogrex: what do you mean it's not part of parenscript itself? 14:00:03 isaacbw: look where I told you to look there you will learn about packages and parenscript interactions 14:01:09 -!- ASau [~user@p5797EFAF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:02:07 for lisp pastes the better place is http://paste.lisp.org/ 14:02:39 ASau [~user@p5797EFAF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:05:53 ubikation [~ubikation@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:44 stardiviner [~stardivin@115.204.235.30] has joined #lisp 14:07:54 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:09:52 ah I see, so package definitions can't be inside parenscript 14:10:00 they come from the common lisp environment 14:10:02 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-109-65-105-19.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:10:16 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:d400:8109:d68e:e2c8:f1ca] has 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16:16:53 hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has joined #lisp 16:18:20 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:21:06 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 16:23:50 francogrex [~user@91.179.192.138] has joined #lisp 16:24:05 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 16:24:38 is there a practical difference when compiling/loading an asdf using: (asdf:load-system :system) versus (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :system) ? I always used the latter 16:24:41 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:24:52 no difference 16:25:45 ok if no practical diff. The first is shorter and easier to remember then will use it instead 16:26:59 I am trying this system and it says: The character encoding of cl-spark must be `utf-8` 16:27:30 what's the default ? 16:28:05 If your lisp is *clozure*, you need [command-line option][ccl-option] `$ ccl -K utf-8` ok but for sbcl for example? 16:28:06 ldionmarcil [~maden@98.143.210.218] has joined #lisp 16:28:17 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@98.143.210.218] has quit [Changing host] 16:28:17 ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 16:29:30 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:32:23 ubikation [~ubikation@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:26 -!- sin293 [~user@171.121.14.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39:06 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:39:09 -!- mihirrege [~mihirrege@gateway/tor-sasl/geremih] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:39:10 -!- effy [~quassel@123.118.174.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:40:23 (stream-external-format *standard-output*) => (:UTF-8 :REPLACEMENT #\REPLACEMENT_CHARACTER) yet the output in emacs is "▁▂█▅▂" i.e. rubbish instead of the nice "graphics" 16:40:45 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 16:41:53 eff_ [~quassel@123.118.174.72] has joined #lisp 16:41:58 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 16:44:16 this question should go to #emacs sorry 16:47:50 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host198.190-138-109.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:48:08 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:48:40 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:04 francogrex: i've found this http://siyobik.info.gf/main/documents/view/x86-tutorial/ in my bookmarks, looks decent 16:50:17 stassats`: thanks. I will print and read. (just as i was about to forget assembly ! ;) 16:51:51 imagine how smug can you be if you know well both assembly and common lisp? 16:52:41 -!- mikeit [~mikeit@net-93-65-150-84.cust.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 16:53:52 indeed! This seems like a good concise tutorial. i started reading "Professional Assembly language" by Richard Blum 16:54:49 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:56:11 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:26 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:03:02 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 17:03:36 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-130-164.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:49 -!- hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:05:01 tertl3-laptop [~tertl3-la@75.139.64.89] has joined #lisp 17:05:33 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:07:15 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:09:27 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:12:42 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:12:44 antgreen [~green@67-207-116-150.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:07 hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has joined #lisp 17:17:20 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 17:19:33 Aramur [~arare@9.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:22 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 17:22:25 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 17:24:43 -!- zophy [~sy@host-8-35-107-208-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:27:19 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@109.65.105.19] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:27:40 -!- hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 17:28:21 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:29:32 -!- francogrex [~user@91.179.192.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:29:52 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 17:30:19 -!- eff_ is now known as effy 17:32:49 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 17:33:15 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:35:01 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.34] has joined #lisp 17:36:28 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 17:37:20 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Client Quit] 17:38:39 zophy [~sy@host-8-35-107-208-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:32 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:39:38 sykopomp` [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:40:57 ndrei_ [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 17:42:55 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:42:55 boogie [~boogie@cpe-76-174-188-141.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:43:29 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 17:43:56 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:44:40 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 17:46:03 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:47:39 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:48:17 foeniks [~fevon@p57A5CAE2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:48:22 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:34 -!- klltkr is now known as klltkr[HOU] 17:53:49 _d3f [~gnu@nl1.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 17:54:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:54:35 what is an atom ? 17:54:35 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-158-220-83.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: testing something in ksp] 17:54:49 and where did they come from ? 17:54:51 clhs glossary/atom 17:54:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_a.htm#atom 17:55:00 zophy: from the big bang 17:55:14 From Lisp 1.5 iirc 17:55:40 -!- seangrov` [~user@78-3-78-40.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:55:55 zophy: anything that is not a cons cell. 17:56:20 well can a cons consist of cons'es ? 17:56:34 conses can consist of anything 17:56:38 a cons cell is a cons cell. 17:58:13 what does cons stand for, construction perhaps ? connection ? 17:58:23 construct 17:58:26 CONSTRUCT 17:58:30 too bad McCarthy has passed on 17:58:55 what would have been different if he didn't? 17:58:59 -!- maxter_ [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:59:16 i could correspond with him if he were alive 17:59:48 You can read all he's written, that's a lot of correspondance to read already. 17:59:59 even Alex Crowely is gone, no help from the dead 18:00:03 normanrichards [~normanric@216.23.215.142] has joined #lisp 18:00:07 zophy: why would he want to correspond with you? 18:00:41 i look good in a tux 18:01:14 There are other lisp teachers. 18:02:21 i can imagine that somewhere there is a secret society of lispers that have formal meetings where awards and recognition abound 18:03:07 *p_l* recalls something about entry being related to "surviving SICP and not giving up" 18:03:07 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:03:42 The Secret Society of Extraordinary Lispers 18:03:56 nah, Knights ;) 18:03:59 zophy: http://www-sop.inria.fr/members/Manuel.Serrano/conferences/els13.html 18:04:04 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:26 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:06:11 heh, all these brainy paradigms end up converting themselves to javascript :) 18:06:43 zophy: yes, we need to drive the need for new chips by making slower software, after all ;) 18:09:11 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:10:53 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 18:11:17 MoALTz [~no@host86-158-220-83.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:12:57 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:16:16 -!- zophy [~sy@host-8-35-107-208-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:16:37 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 18:17:15 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:17:59 nug700_ [~nug700@174-26-130-164.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:13 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-26-130-164.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:18:58 -!- ndrei_ [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:19:24 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 18:20:50 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 18:21:57 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:23:16 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:25:21 pnpuff [~l@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:26:18 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 18:26:35 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:27:32 ikki [~ikki@201.164.190.107] has joined #lisp 18:29:49 zophy [~sy@host-8-35-107-208-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:25 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 18:31:17 -!- pnpuff [~l@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 18:32:27 albusdrachir [~albusdrac@67.89-11-141.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:32:57 awygle1 [~Andrew@50.46.151.244] has joined #lisp 18:33:31 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:34:43 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:35:05 -!- albusdrachir [~albusdrac@67.89-11-141.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:36:27 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9DE66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:36:33 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 18:36:39 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:36:42 Lefeni [~Lefeni@c-0941e555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:36:53 -!- awygle1 [~Andrew@50.46.151.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:41:30 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:41:48 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.34] has joined #lisp 18:42:33 -!- Aramur [~arare@9.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 18:43:00 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 18:46:25 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:53:45 -!- zophy [~sy@host-8-35-107-208-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:55:26 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:57:33 pnpuff [~l@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:58:18 how do i either loop over a vector of strings, or convert a vector of strings to a list? 18:59:14 axion: The second thing? (concatenate 'list vector-of-strings), i suppose. 18:59:17 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:37 (loop for x across ...) 19:00:43 (loop for elt across vector ...) 19:00:46 ^ 19:01:35 thanks 19:02:13 -!- hajji80 [~hajji80@185.25.87.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:04:13 awygle1 [~Andrew@50.46.151.244] has joined #lisp 19:04:15 -!- boogie [~boogie@cpe-76-174-188-141.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:11 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:06:26 -!- pnpuff [~l@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 19:07:00 -!- matko [~matko@ip82-139-125-60.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:11:23 -!- ubikation [~ubikation@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:12:05 etv12 [~ETV12@185.25.87.52] has joined #lisp 19:12:46 KarlDscc [~localhost@p5DD9DE66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:14:26 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:45 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9DE66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:14:55 and how can i space-delimit a string into a vector? 19:15:07 look up split-sequence 19:15:18 matko [~matko@ip82-139-125-60.lijbrandt.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:21 Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:42 i did, and it makes a list 19:18:36 you can coerce it to a vector, i guess 19:18:46 -!- etv12 [~ETV12@185.25.87.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:19:22 then ("string1 "string2") becomes #(("string1" "string2")) 19:19:45 er, what? 19:19:48 (coerce vector 'list) 19:20:43 aquatintist55 [~aquatinti@185.25.87.52] has joined #lisp 19:23:34 k0001 [~k0001@host134.181-1-163.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:27:09 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:29:03 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:30:38 francogrex [~user@91.179.192.138] has joined #lisp 19:31:02 axion: then ("string1 "string2") becomes #("string1" "string2") 19:31:46 (stream-external-format *standard-output*) => (:CP850 :REPLACEMENT #\?) can I change this to utf-8 is it setf able ? 19:31:49 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:32:54 Sometimes. 19:33:08 setf-able stream-external-format is implementation dependant. 19:33:42 Some implementations also use environment variables (LC_*), or implementation specific special variables. 19:37:37 (coerce (split-sequence #\Space string) 'vector) ? 19:37:41 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 19:38:10 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 19:39:36 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 19:41:47 -!- Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:43:43 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 19:45:36 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ejohnson] 19:46:30 oudeis [~oudeis@109.65.105.19] has joined #lisp 19:46:50 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 19:47:18 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 19:53:58 weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:00 ypyf` [~user@59.38.142.119] has joined #lisp 19:55:06 -!- ggole [~ggole@220-253-136-49.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 19:57:31 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:59:06 fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:11 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-14-77.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 20:00:54 kmox83 [~kmox83@host1-135-dynamic.20-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:01:58 On the same sbcl but linux it is by default :utf-8; on the windows unfortunately it is :CP850 20:04:57 boogie [~boogie@cpe-76-174-188-141.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:47 hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has joined #lisp 20:06:41 -!- kmox83 [~kmox83@host1-135-dynamic.20-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: kmox83] 20:06:54 -!- nightshade427 [nightshade@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:feae:fb24] has left #lisp 20:06:56 nightshade427 [nightshade@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:feae:fb24] has joined #lisp 20:08:03 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:08:51 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:12:06 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-99-207.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:13:10 -!- boogie [~boogie@cpe-76-174-188-141.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:14:35 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:27 -!- Guest8081 is now known as xristos 20:19:53 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 20:24:55 stassats: Are you online? You told me but I didn't write it down - how do I start up swank from the command line with say SBCL? 20:25:27 seangrov` [~user@78-3-78-40.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:25:41 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.180.110.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:26:04 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 20:27:42 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:27:47 And is it possible to talk to a swank server using telnet? 20:32:18 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA333F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:32:29 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp 20:35:14 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Client Quit] 20:35:21 Found it: sbcl --load start-swank.lisp 20:41:34 -!- francogrex [~user@91.179.192.138] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:45:20 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA333F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:51:00 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:55:13 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:03 -!- _d3f [~gnu@nl1.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: "Shut up and Hack"~] 20:59:15 -!- ejbs [~user@h-30-123.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:00:52 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 21:01:43 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:d400:8109:d68e:e2c8:f1ca] has joined #lisp 21:02:29 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Quit: Life is too short] 21:04:15 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-254-212.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:04:19 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 21:04:24 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-148-63.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:04:33 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@216.23.215.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:06:56 resttime [~rest@par0360.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 21:12:05 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA333F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:14:37 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp 21:15:15 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Client Quit] 21:18:14 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:22:30 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:22:33 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp 21:23:18 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.190.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:24:29 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-182.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:37 pjb` [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-181-163.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:27:01 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-203-73.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:27:51 -!- tertl3-laptop [~tertl3-la@75.139.64.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:28:28 -!- pjb is now known as Guest85326 21:28:41 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 21:30:28 -!- Guest85326 [~t@90.24.176.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 266 seconds] 21:37:22 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:55 gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:18 -!- gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:46:09 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@130-204-14-33.2075264485.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:55 ubikation [~ubikation@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:59 gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:29 i started working on my Allegro5 game programming library bindings again 21:48:43 it has some functions where it reuqires passing structures by value 21:48:59 should I let the library handle structures, thus requiring an additional dependency cffi-libffi 21:49:00 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:49:15 which needs libffi installed and gcc etc. 21:49:24 or should I try to reimplement the structures with Common Lisp code to increase portability 21:49:40 I do not know about any performance differences 21:51:10 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable194.190-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:51:44 For example this function which is kind of important: http://alleg.sourceforge.net/a5docs/5.0.9/graphics.html#al_get_pixel 21:51:53 returns a structure by value 21:52:11 and a lot of other functions use said structure 21:52:27 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.232.20.42] has joined #lisp 21:54:07 Hum. So on SBCL (/ 0.1 0) throws DIVISION-BY-ZERO while (/ 0.0 0) throws FLOATING-POINT-INVALID-OPERATION. Does IEEE 754 actually recognize a difference between these 2 cases?... 21:54:28 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Zzz] 21:54:40 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:55:00 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:56:03 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:56:16 (regarding https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1228925) 21:56:35 resttime: Which structure is being passed by value - do you mean ALLEGRO_COLOR is a struct and it's returned by value? 21:56:40 -!- hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:56:50 drmeister: yes 21:57:42 gleag_ [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:58:18 gleag__ [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:58:19 I don't have the experience to answer your question but I'm working on library bindings at the moment - that's why I asked. 21:58:55 well have any q's about it then? 21:58:56 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:57 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:59:15 Although - getting a single pixel sounds like a very slow operation no matter how you do it :-) 21:59:51 true 22:00:12 err, any q's about writing lib bindings 22:00:37 though you probably have more XP than me on that 22:01:55 I actually started to write a wrapper lib in C that served as an intermediate by allocating the structure and returning a pointer 22:02:05 -!- gleag_ [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:02:22 then i fixed cffi-libffi on SBCL windows with the help of others in this chan 22:02:27 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:03 -!- nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:03:39 nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:56 No questions - I do things differently - I'm writing a new CL implementation that interoperates with C++. My questions are more like - I just dropped 200 C++ classes into Common Lisp as new builtin types/CLOS classes - how would you create "make-xxx" initializer functions for them. 22:04:49 hahaha goodness gracious 22:05:09 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-67-18.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 22:06:44 well i'm back to the decision of needing dependencies (and possible performance loss) vs writing lots more native code for the lib 22:08:06 tertl3-laptop [~tertl3-la@75.139.64.89] has joined #lisp 22:09:07 I'll probably decide to write lots more native code 22:09:45 ugh, this feels like an odd beginning like I'm starting to port ALlegro5 into lisp 22:10:13 i better not find myself doing that in a year 22:11:44 next thing i know i'll be tackling something crazy like porting linux to lisp 22:11:55 (yeah right pftt) 22:13:19 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:13:22 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:43 New question 22:14:20 What's the fastest structure computationally for SBCL to create/access values 22:14:33 -!- keltvek [~keltvek@unaffiliated/keltvek] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:14:39 Lists? Defstructs? defclasses? Arrays? 22:16:33 -!- [1]JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:16:45 JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:17:16 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:08 -!- paul0 [~paul0@187.112.251.165] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:20:08 paul0 [~paul0@187.112.251.165] has joined #lisp 22:20:26 depends. 22:21:56 resttime: better to benchmark it on various platforms. 22:22:04 -!- arrsim` [~user@128.250.116.182] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:06 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:24:26 pjb: just writing benchmark already, I assume a copy of each with one element/slot then average the time reading about 10000 times would work? 22:24:36 *started writing... 22:25:18 resttime: no, it wouldn't be significant: in real applications, real cache usage matter more. 22:26:32 Also, you may try cl:disassemble (and mind the optimize declaration). 22:27:07 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:27:14 if anyone is familiar with postmodern library, is it possible to define a column to be a foreign key in a dao-class defclass definition? 22:28:37 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f693e2.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:28:40 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:29:18 pjb: sorry I'm not sure if I follow, so would I write different functions that utilize a different structure and benchmark that? 22:29:19 resttime: single cons cells, follow by structs and arrays, classes are by far the slowest 22:29:20 prxq [~mommer@x2f6930e.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 22:29:24 followed 22:31:09 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:49 stassats`: okay, thanks 22:32:41 resttime: but structures are the usually best bet, when considering performance and ease of use 22:33:10 rather, usually the 22:34:28 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 22:35:01 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-182.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:35:42 alright got it, I've also forgotten about the disassemble function so that'll help too with future optimization, thanks stassats` and pjb 22:37:56 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p57A5CAE2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:38:37 Aramur [~arare@9.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:55 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:d400:8109:d68e:e2c8:f1ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:42:38 -!- ypyf` [~user@59.38.142.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:44:43 -!- klltkr[HOU] [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:47:00 -!- KarlDscc [~localhost@p5DD9DE66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 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[Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:57:24 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:59:36 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:58 ered [~ered@75.101.56.39] has joined #lisp 02:02:18 schoppenhauer [~quassel@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 02:03:46 patojo [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:46 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:04:14 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:05:16 arrsim [~user@128.250.116.182] has joined #lisp 02:05:41 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 02:06:04 quick doubt 02:06:11 can ASDF handle circular dependencies? 02:06:33 how would that even work? 02:06:42 -!- LeMrRob [~Mr@50-83-163-92.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:07:17 stassats`: I don't know, that's why I was asking :P 02:07:32 I can get around it, of course, it was just a curiosity 02:09:09 circular dependencies is a bad idea anyway 02:09:40 it's not even an idea 02:09:47 Exactly. 02:10:20 Absolutely exactly 02:10:21 anunnaki [~anunnaki@c-174-54-115-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:53 -!- loke [~loke@203.127.16.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:11:04 well, in C++ you can have a circular include 02:11:59 in c++, you can shot your foot clean off with subtle punctuation 02:13:28 well, you do understand that I'm talking about file dependencies, not system dependencies, right? 02:14:11 there's no difference, it just can't work 02:14:36 loke [~loke@203.127.16.194] has joined #lisp 02:14:40 -!- anunnaki is now known as naacals 02:15:50 what would I do if I find myself in the situation where I need (defclass foo () ((baz :type bar))) (defclass bar () ((blah :type foo)))? 02:16:45 Denommus: (defclass foo () ()) (defclass bar () (...)) (defclass foo () (...)) 02:17:01 Denommus: you shouldn't need to do anything 02:17:23 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 02:17:28 ashish [having@badti.me] has joined #lisp 02:17:28 cpt_nemo [~cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 02:17:28 Ralt [Ralt@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:6c69] has joined #lisp 02:17:28 guaqua [gua@hilla.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 02:17:28 nightfly [sage@destiny.cat.pdx.edu] has joined #lisp 02:17:28 ircbrowse [~chrisdone@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has joined #lisp 02:17:28 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 02:17:28 antifuchs [~foobar@boots.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:28 Blkt [~Blkt@2a01:4f8:150:80a1::aaaa] has joined #lisp 02:17:28 -!- rothfuss.freenode.net has set mode +o fe[nl]ix 02:17:32 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:17:35 and you shouldn't need :type either, it rarely does anything 02:17:47 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 02:18:59 stassats`: I'm talking about an hypothetical situation, calm down 02:19:19 loke: hm, this is similar to what I would do in C++, but I understand that it works for different reasons 02:19:25 don't tell me to calm down 02:19:58 with asdf you can deal with weird dependencies like "compile everything before loading anything" or "compile this file twice before loading it", i'm sure it's fine 02:20:25 Bike: easier to fix the code 02:20:44 i dunno man, mcclim's pretty messy! 02:21:01 it's easier to throw it away 02:21:11 Bike: compile everything before loading anything would probably work 02:21:29 well, it's in the manual if you want it 02:21:43 you just have operations depending on operations 02:22:06 Denommus: What you do you expect to happen with your example? 02:22:48 LeMrRob [~Mr@108-230-189-189.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:48 -!- ypyf` [~user@59.38.142.119] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:23:01 ypyf` [~user@59.38.142.119] has joined #lisp 02:23:16 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:23:21 -!- ypyf` [~user@59.38.142.119] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:24:06 par [~owls@unaffiliated/lordlicorice] has joined #lisp 02:25:25 pillton: it should just work, no asdf involved 02:25:36 but you can't use :initform with it 02:25:52 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 02:25:59 and difficult to use :initarg 02:26:30 Bike: I'll check the manual later, thanks 02:26:51 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.190.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:26:54 pillton: I would expect it to not compile, if I put the type declarations, even if they don't do a thing 02:27:49 michi03 [~canaima@201.243.139.92] has joined #lisp 02:27:58 it will compile and will do a thing, unless you're using a damaged compiler 02:28:38 hola 02:28:47 stassats`: You will be able to use initform. Initform isn't evaluated during DEFCLASS. 02:29:02 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:29:06 en espaol por favor 02:29:18 #lisp-es, maybe? does that channel even exist 02:29:43 pillton: it's evaluated during instantiation, and you won't be able to instantiate one without the other 02:29:49 alguien aki habla espaol 02:30:17 what ? 02:30:44 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:d400:8109:d68e:e2c8:f1ca] has joined #lisp 02:31:01 Denommus: All you are creating are the class meta-objects. You are not creating instances of the class. 02:31:03 aki alguien habla espaol 02:31:25 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-xmnlcbjumuljycbx] has joined #lisp 02:31:36 kick off michi03 ?! 02:31:45 pillton: but I would be making a reference to a type that doesn't exist. Will it compile anyway? 02:31:58 pillton: :initform nil will signal a type error, and (make-instance 'bar) and (make-instance 'foo) will produce infinite recursion 02:32:05 awygle1 [~Andrew@50.46.151.244] has joined #lisp 02:32:55 Denommus: it would, unless it's particularly picky 02:33:05 look I speak Spanish and a little English 02:33:16 sbcl did used to bug out with the similar (make-array ... :element-type 'something-unreal) but it's been fixed 02:34:07 stassats`: right. Hm. I think the fact that methods do not belong to classes help to avoid having circular dependencies in CL 02:34:09 if you use forward referenced types, the may not optimize as well, but in clos slot accessors are usually compiled during runtime 02:34:10 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 02:34:11 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 02:35:03 you can define classes referencing yet undefined classes too, that's more well defined 02:35:46 English damn fucking bye malparidos... 02:35:50 quazimodo [~quazimodo@14-200-126-134.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:35:56 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 02:35:58 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*canaima@201.243.139.* 02:35:59 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 02:36:17 -!- michi03 [~canaima@201.243.139.92] has left #lisp 02:36:25 you're already smug about a language, lisp will suite you just well! 02:37:46 ikki [~ikki@201.164.190.107] has joined #lisp 02:40:48 -!- hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:46:30 tertl3-laptop [~tertl3-la@75.139.64.89] has joined #lisp 02:50:42 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:51:14 -!- benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:51:47 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 02:52:05 Can anyone recommend a good Common Lisp parser library - I see more than a dozen on http://www.cliki.net/parser%20generator 02:52:35 I always loved smug. 02:52:36 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.190.107] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:52:50 but I think it's kinda bitrotted at this point. I'm not sure if the version on github actually works. 02:53:05 I've heard good things about cl-yacc, though. 02:53:16 ikki [~ikki@201.164.190.107] has joined #lisp 02:53:19 And that's not even on there - everybody loves to write parsers. 02:53:25 parser-libraries that is. 02:53:34 just hand parse it! 02:53:56 *sykopomp* is writing one right this very moment, although it's not for CL :( 02:54:10 -!- purentity [~entity@c-50-136-180-20.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:54:25 those bloody parsers has so many options to learn, and who's got time for that 02:55:13 I'm not really up on writing parsers by hand - but I agree with your sentiment. I always end up wrestling with bison. 02:55:14 drmeister: and you're dealing with lisp code, aren't you? don't need no fancy parsers 02:55:32 -!- sabra [~sabra@67.174.222.215] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 02:55:37 stassats`: Yes, I want to write this in CL - what do you recommend? 02:55:53 I've got to make this baby start paying for itself. 02:55:55 no, i mean you're parsing lisp code 02:55:58 what are you parsing, out of curiosity 02:56:27 SMILES - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplified_molecular-input_line-entry_system 02:56:30 if you're not parsing lisp code for compilation/execution, then i can't recommend anything 02:57:07 drmeister: scientists invent the weirdest file formats, better stock on patience 02:57:31 stassats`: There isn't much to parse in Lisp code - I implemented the reader from the CLHS in C++. 02:57:34 i'd just throw it in cl-yacc and see if it works 02:58:25 drmeister: if you want to execute it, yeah 02:58:31 if you want to analyze it, then it's a bit harder 02:58:41 especially if you want to deal with incomplete/broken input 02:58:59 (like in an editor) 02:59:22 I'll try that - there is a similar code called SMARTS for molecular pattern recognition: I wrote it using bison - https://gist.github.com/drmeister/abd032202415bbfbe693 I'd like to see if it's easier in CL. 03:00:05 oh geez, is this some kind of pseudoregex thing 03:02:23 Yes - yes it is - it does pattern recognition on undirected graphs where the nodes are atoms with properties and the vertices are chemical bonds. 03:02:45 It's really powerful. 03:02:55 gonna have to remember that next time i think about subgraph isomorphism 03:03:13 SMARTS is for molecular pattern recognition, SMILES is for building molecules. 03:04:38 I've just brought all of my chemistry code into my Common Lisp run-time - now it begins... 03:05:40 It's hundreds of new builtin types that are also exposed as CLOS classes so I can write generic functions on them. 03:06:25 really builtin? 03:06:35 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:06:40 stassats`: Yes - what are you thinking? 03:06:56 Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:07:04 clhs built-in-class 03:07:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_built_.htm 03:07:25 clhs glossary/built-in type 03:07:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_b.htm#built-in_type 03:07:30 -!- tertl3-laptop [~tertl3-la@75.139.64.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:07:35 purentity [~entity@c-50-136-180-20.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:52 Yup - all that. 03:08:13 why are they built in? 03:08:25 built in classes only make sense for implementation classes 03:08:49 There is a bit of a problem - I broke all of the initialization code - most of the classes don't have MAKE-XXX functions - I have to add them back now (sigh). 03:09:25 (so that you can stop caring about extensions and optimize them) 03:09:30 stassats`: I think I know what you mean but could you elaborate a little more? 03:09:55 you can't subclass built in classes 03:09:57 well presumably this chemistry thing doesn't have to be built into the compiler or runtime or anything, so why do that? 03:10:11 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-124-231.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:10:25 you can't also define methods on standardize functions where all arguments are specialized on built in classes 03:10:55 all in the name of possible optimizations 03:11:25 if you want optimizations, look at structures, you get almost everything except for multiple inheritance 03:11:33 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 03:11:35 Bike: It does actually - I decided to manage them with the same garbage collector that I'll use for the CL classes. That only works if I build them into the runtime. 03:12:01 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:12:06 so, if i define a new class, its instances won't be gced? 03:12:06 Er... aren't they just CL data that should be handled by the CL collector anyway? 03:12:07 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 03:12:32 Bike: No - they are C++ classes. 03:13:01 don't you have a better way of accessing c++ classes than making them built-in? 03:13:49 stassats`: I do - it's just easier this way. 03:14:00 this doesn't sound very easy! 03:14:11 Easy as in - it's done already. 03:14:25 it may be easy, but it's doesn't sound right 03:16:56 Why not? Don't worry. There is an brcl runtime that is just Common Lisp. There is also a cando runtime that is Common Lisp with all of my chemistry code added in. It's a massively extended Common Lisp. The chemistry types are treated no differently than any other Common Lisp type. BRCL has a BIGNUM type. CANDO has a BIGNUM type and a chem:ATOM type - no big deal. 03:17:30 what if i want to add my physics code in? 03:17:55 stassats`: Oh absolutely not - no physics code allowed. 03:18:13 but chemistry is just applied physics 03:18:53 drmeister: the point here is that if you need to warp your runtime for your application that's kind of a problem, generally 03:20:10 Bike: It doesn't warp the runtime - it adds to it - and everything is added in different packages. The COMMON-LISP package will have it's standard 978 symbols defined - no more - no less. 03:21:10 drmeister: i mean your implementation. you're altering it for this chemistry stuff, yeah? or else you could just use (load "chem.lisp") in the same program 03:22:26 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:23:16 I can't (load "chem.lisp") because the chem types/classes are C++ classes (fancy C structs) - they don't have slots in the same way that CLOS classes have slots. You can't access the slots with SLOT-VALUE for instance. 03:23:37 why not? 03:23:46 yes, but i mean you could have an implementation-defined way to load C++ classes 03:23:55 you can have a custom meta-class with a different slot-value-using-class 03:24:06 I'd have to write an FFI - I hate FFI's. 03:24:25 isn't what you're doing an FFI? 03:24:55 you just shouldn't have brought it up 03:24:57 I don't think so - it's a different way to interoperate with C++. 03:25:25 "hey man, drop what you're doing now, it's not pure" 03:25:30 Actually, I don't know how an FFI is defined so I can't say that. 03:25:55 ffi is a way to interact with code written in a different language 03:29:01 So what's the problem with adding new builtin types - I still don't see it. 03:29:34 well, say somebody wants to use some large-scale scientific certainly-not-physics code with your lisp system 03:29:46 it's kind of onerous to have to say "well just extend the runtime, here's the source" 03:30:21 Oh - I see - well they wouldn't have too unless they wanted to. 03:30:43 are you sure? i assume there's a reason you haven't done so 03:30:57 haven't used something that doesn't involve extending the runtime, i mean 03:31:00 i though you wanted an implementation which is easier to interface with c++ 03:31:25 hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has joined #lisp 03:31:25 i would have expected a special metaclass making it easier to interact with both languages 03:31:54 -!- seangrov` [~user@78-3-78-40.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:32:35 There's both, but I haven't finished the CL/C++ interface for generic/off-the-shelf C++ libraries. 03:33:04 I use template programming to create an interface between C++ code and Common Lisp. 03:34:03 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.64.222.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:34:06 I hacked and copied the boost::python template library and stripped out the stuff I didn't understand at the time to create a stripped down version that requires some boilerplate code to be added to the C++ classes to integrate them with Common Lisp. I wrote all of my chemistry code that way. 03:35:05 I just need to duplicate the functionality in boost::python to create a full C++/Common Lisp interface that will work with arbitrary, generic C++ code. 03:35:31 I haven't done it because I don't need it yet and I only have 24 hours in my days just like everybody else. 03:36:19 The main stuff that's missing is call-policies. I haven't figured out how they work wrt C++ template programming. 03:38:23 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@14-200-126-134.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:38:31 The reason why I have the chemistry code hooked in the way I do is for a deeper reason - it will let me use the Common Lisp garbage collector for all of my chemistry objects. 03:40:06 Interfacing C++ memory management with Python memory management is a huge headache with boost::python. I don't have to deal with that using the approach that I've taken. 03:41:02 end-of-monologue 03:43:19 Sounds like a c++ app / environment that is scriptable with Common Lisp, as opposed to a normal Common Lisp that that can use c++ stuff (limited knowledge of your project) 03:44:02 Both of which are interesting :) 03:45:24 nightshade427: I don't know you but I like you immediately. 03:46:41 -!- breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 03:47:44 Thanks, just saw the last few statements about your project. Thought I would chime in. 03:48:52 breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:13 I'm currently writing a large scale distributed machine translation system and platform for 750+ languages. Also writing another large scale distributed transcoding and video platform. 03:49:43 In CL? 03:49:47 Ya 03:50:03 just write everything in CL, don't need no 750 languages to do it 03:50:15 Nice - I love this language. I've only known it for about 3 years and I feel in love with it hard. 03:50:18 stassats`: Haha 03:51:09 drmeister: Ya, I feel in love with it as well. Only been using it seriously for 3-4 months 03:51:12 But I have lots of C++ code that I wrote and need to interact with. The CL compiler I wrote is my way of "making my cake and eating it too". 03:51:38 imagine how much code you could have ported in that time? 03:51:54 quazimodo [~quazimodo@14-200-126-134.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:52:00 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host134.181-1-163.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:52:17 drmeister: Ya it sounds really interesting 03:54:08 Well, have to get up for work in 3 hours, better take a nap. Have a good one everybody. 03:55:00 stassats`: There is that - sometimes I wonder how I could have done things differently - but then I have learned so much. And I've got access to LLVM-IR - essentially a portable assembly language that I can interface with my code. 03:57:38 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@14-200-126-134.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:01:53 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.190.107] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 04:02:36 I'm trying to load cl-yacc into my environment - what does (defpackage #:yacc (:use #:common-lisp)...) mean? Are they using uninterned symbols as symbol-designators? 04:03:02 yep 04:03:18 it means the obvious, it's a package named "YACC" that uses the "COMMON-LISP" package, and so on 04:03:55 unless with modern mode or one of these bastardized readtable configurations 04:05:02 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:07:54 -!- CrazyEddy [~uncatholi@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:09:10 Corvidium [~cosman246@h-72-244-206-191.sttn.wa.dynamic.megapath.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:12 -!- awygle1 [~Andrew@50.46.151.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:13:59 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 04:15:02 -!- drdo [~drdo@2a02:2498:e000:20::16f:2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:16:20 drdo [~drdo@2a02:2498:e000:20::16f:2] has joined #lisp 04:18:25 awygle1 [~Andrew@50.46.151.244] has joined #lisp 04:18:25 karswell [~user@228.33.208.46.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:08 -!- wchun 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[~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 06:23:29 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 06:24:59 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:28:23 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 06:28:27 guest-5150 [3294a258@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.148.162.88] has joined #lisp 06:30:31 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 06:30:57 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 06:31:16 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 06:33:55 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279563839.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 06:35:52 nipra1 [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 06:36:12 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:36:12 -!- nipra1 [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Client Quit] 06:36:21 any cl-postmodern users around? 06:38:43 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:48 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:42:38 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-xmnlcbjumuljycbx] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:45:24 -!- LeMrRob [~Mr@108-230-189-189.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:45:26 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:45:41 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:45:44 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 06:46:56 mrSpec [~Spec@77-254-128-216.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 06:46:56 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@77-254-128-216.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:46:56 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:50:19 *nightfly* used it about a year ago 06:51:16 danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:17 bg_ [~bg@adsl-70-137-141-138.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:18 -!- guest-5150 [3294a258@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.148.162.88] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:58:45 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:59:20 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 07:00:26 nightfly: any idea how to define a many-to-many relationship? 07:01:18 that is left as an exercise to the user, I believe 07:01:57 Postmodern doesn't try and do everything 07:02:38 i see, oh well. 07:02:45 Symbol "ARGLIST-DISPATCH" not found in the SWANK package. when (ql:quickload "sexml") 07:03:14 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:03:31 <|3b|> jaimef: possibly you have an old slime/swank? 07:03:37 latest slime 07:03:44 -!- chenjf [3d90f811@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.144.248.17] has left #lisp 07:03:49 from cvs anyways 07:04:59 <|3b|> and M-x slime-changelog-date shows a matching date? 07:05:10 2013-06-28 07:05:12 oleo_ [d4b81ecd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.184.30.205] has joined #lisp 07:05:24 26 rather 07:05:33 jaimef: (ql:quickload "sexml") works for me 07:05:34 <|3b|> ah, maybe you need to load a contrib for it 07:05:56 yeah it's something else other than just that. 07:07:32 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.249.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 07:08:28 -!- hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:08:39 <|3b|> if you aren't loading any slime contribs, try with slime-fancy and see if that helps (if so, probably should file a bug against sexml to check before trying to use it) 07:10:43 jewel [~jewel@105-236-99-207.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:13:06 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:13:22 something in my quicklisp is fucked 07:13:48 The name "SWANK" does not designate any package. 07:14:02 from sbcl --load hello-world.lisp 07:14:20 ofc, not 07:14:23 ehu [~ehu@62.140.137.37] has joined #lisp 07:14:24 you didn't load it 07:14:26 <|3b|> well, if you didn't load slime, not having swank is reasonable 07:14:50 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@171.217.160.166] has left #lisp 07:15:06 <|3b|> (and if sexml tries to do stuff with swank without making sure it is loaded first, that is even more of a bug) 07:15:09 swank is not referenced in the hello0world.lisp so it's a bit of a surprise it's looking for it 07:15:31 <|3b|> anything in ~/.sbclrc ? 07:15:59 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:16:04 https://gist.github.com/6667345 usual ql init 07:16:16 and the hello-world https://gist.github.com/6667346 07:16:38 will nuke ~/quicklisp and rebuild it 07:16:52 -!- pillton [~user@140.253.50.147] has left #lisp 07:17:49 <|3b|> well, same with restas instead of sexml then (though i'd have expected restas to be more widely used so more likely to have been noticed) 07:18:36 yeah no doubt something got hosed 07:18:45 that fixed it 07:19:59 thanks for the help, will dig at this more tomorrow 07:24:06 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.217.19] has joined #lisp 07:24:06 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.217.19] has 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connection discontinued by supernova explosion] 08:25:51 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:59 -!- bg_ [~bg@adsl-70-137-141-138.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:31:47 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 08:31:53 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 08:32:42 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:33:04 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 08:35:38 -!- seangrov` [~user@78-3-78-40.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:37:35 seems I'm missing something about defmacro and special variables 08:38:15 (defmacro foo ((args) &body forms) `(my-func ,*specvar*)) 08:38:35 it almost look like specvar is captured from the environment at the time of the compiling 08:38:45 which somehow makes sense now that I'm writing it 08:39:10 yeah ok 08:39:23 is it special ? 08:39:24 was gettings so used to using ,variables that I didn't think avbout it 08:39:28 problem solved ;-) 08:40:32 wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:41:01 arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-azdjwghrkhmxremp] has joined #lisp 08:41:31 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:41:42 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 08:44:43 -!- axion [~axion@20.sub-70-197-193.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:48:32 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:48:41 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 08:48:42 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 08:50:01 arquebus [~frath@c-107-3-164-239.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:31 -!- ered [~ered@75-101-56-39.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:52:31 ered [~ered@75-101-56-39.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:25 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host 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09:06:12 -!- nug700_ [~nug700@174-26-130-164.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:08:27 ssqq [~songzhiqu@112.90.222.133] has joined #lisp 09:09:28 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-148-63.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:10:02 Use Emacs view *.texi or *.info file, How to switch its major mode? 09:10:17 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-143-154.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:11:08 <|3b|> #emacs knows more about how emacs works than #lisp 09:13:23 u[]hi 09:13:24 p;/y[7 09:13:28 'vp 09:13:32 -!- ssqq [~songzhiqu@112.90.222.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:16:45 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 09:17:21 -!- d4gg4d_ [uid7020@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ffwfydmfqnxctfww] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 09:20:28 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:20:48 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 09:21:58 -!- ered [~ered@75-101-56-39.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the 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[~textual@109.231.229.69] has joined #lisp 12:11:32 brmj [444631d0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.70.49.208] has joined #lisp 12:12:45 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:13:05 -!- antgreen [~green@67-207-116-150.static.wiline.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:13:51 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:10 antgreen [~green@67-207-116-150.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 12:18:18 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:19:20 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:39 DrCode_ [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 12:20:49 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:20:54 -!- DrCode_ is now known as DrCode 12:23:35 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tsch] 12:23:55 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 12:24:58 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 12:24:58 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 12:30:07 chenjf [~chenjf@112.90.222.134] has joined #lisp 12:31:22 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@109.231.229.69] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 12:32:21 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:35:01 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 12:36:22 tylergoza [~tylergoza@72.29.34.246] has joined #lisp 12:38:58 Greetings. 12:39:10 Is that normal that stumpwm consumes about 1G of memory or what? 12:40:21 you might be mistaking reserved address space for actual consumed memory 12:40:39 -!- aquatintist55 [~aquatinti@185.25.87.52] has quit [Quit: aquatintist55] 12:40:53 Sure I know that it's just reserved. Why it may need so much space? 12:41:48 it's not physical space, it's address space 12:42:35 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:44:15 So, I can stop worrying about that? 12:45:07 hitecnologys: Divine permission granted. 12:45:40 togger37 [~togger37@185.25.87.12] has joined #lisp 12:46:06 -!- The_third_man [~The_third@coucousylvain.tocards.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 12:46:08 "Actual consumed memory" can be remarkably vague notion, given the arrangement of a modern system. 12:46:08 It's more disturbing that it consumes ~110mb of physical space. :) 12:46:19 The_third_man [~The_third@irc.tocards.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:30 But i can live with that if you ask me. 12:46:33 I just don't quite get this virt-shared-res memory things so I may sound stupid. I'm really sorry for that. 12:47:57 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:08 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-197-250.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:48:53 OK then, thanks. 12:51:55 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:54:17 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:56:34 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:56:54 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:22 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:58:20 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:42 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:59:36 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timeout: 240 seconds] 16:30:23 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 16:30:50 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-237-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:33:41 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.35.215.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:34:55 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:35:27 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 16:35:59 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tsch] 16:36:00 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:36:59 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:39:25 -!- aoh_ [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Changing host] 16:39:25 aoh_ [~aki@unaffiliated/aoh] has joined #lisp 16:40:13 hello Denommus 16:41:34 -!- aoh_ is now known as aoh 16:42:49 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:42:57 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 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17:05:05 How does Common Lisp suck according to you? Just an open-ended question, I'm interested in hearing what people think (not trying to flame). 17:05:22 You being whoever cares enough to answer :) 17:05:58 that's a tricky question 17:06:00 k0001 [~k0001@host198.190-138-109.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:06:28 I think what I wanted in a Lisp that Common Lisp doesn't provide me is a powerful type system, like Haskell's 17:06:43 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:07:05 type is bad 17:07:17 but then CL will never provide me that, and that's okay :P 17:07:24 mongo like no type 17:07:26 zophy: that's highly debatable, like objects vs closures 17:07:32 what about Qi? 17:07:51 never got it to work, for some reason 17:07:53 ejbs: the community is too small 17:07:55 Far has some interesting criticisms about Common Lisp (interesting as in "I don't really understand the significance of them yet") 17:08:39 compilation semantics are kind of obscure sometimes. 17:08:47 ejbs: got a link? 17:09:01 Easy to get bitten by stale state in the repl 17:09:12 Bike: oh, yeah, that's a good point. I still don't grasp how compilation works in most implementations 17:10:40 if you ask questions you can get answers. it just seems to be confusing to most people. 17:10:43 segv-: Nah, sorry, I think it was posted on his blog (which shouldn't be too hard to find). It's about compilation and how it's kinda tricky 17:10:54 are you thinking of the eval-when post? 17:11:00 Yes 17:11:03 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:11:08 Plus some other one probably. 17:11:54 there's also a amount of the community that wants to say how CL sucks but don't have a clue :P 17:12:18 ? 17:12:28 cl rocks! 17:12:42 ejbs: ah, i vaguely remember that post. 17:13:15 but i don't know, does it "suck" that assoc isn't a place? or that getf and gethash have similar names but opposite argument orders? 17:13:29 like "Lisp isn't an acceptable Lisp" 17:13:50 (car (assoc ...)) and (cdr (assoc ...)) are both setfable iirc 17:13:56 there are lots of little things like nth vs elt 17:13:56 naaah, apart from some maybe wrong wordings in the clhs.... 17:14:08 ggole: sure, because car and cdr are places, but assoc isn't (but getf is) 17:14:20 ggole: the pair does have to already be there for those, though. 17:14:33 segv-: no, as in setf knows about the assoc part. 17:14:36 segv-: Nah, that doesn't really matter. Common Lisp is still one of the (if not the best) best dynamic languages out there. 17:14:47 ggole: no, it doesn't. it just cares about the car/cdr part 17:14:51 segv-: assoc-value in alexandria is nice 17:16:08 Er, of course they are. 17:16:18 *ggole* has the dumb 17:16:47 -!- lufu [~user@5.254.134.93] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:16:57 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 17:16:57 Bike: yeah, it's certainly fixable (as are all of the little bits of suck in CL) but i shouldn't have had to fix it (but hindsight is 20/20) 17:16:58 For some reason my brain interpreted "this setf form works" as "this setf form has a special case" 17:17:32 -!- benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:51a:b567:f220:1ca7] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 17:17:37 oh, wait, CL should have shift/reset. that's a bit of suck i can't fix myself. 17:17:51 segv-: sure 17:18:06 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.43.127] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 17:18:13 were delimited continuations even theorized by the time CL was standardized? 17:18:45 Bike: i think so (not at all sure) but even if, they certainly weren't in use enoguh to be standardized 17:19:04 Bike: Yes. "The earliest description of continuations was made by Adriaan van Wijngaarden in September 1964." 17:19:17 segv-: shift/reset? 17:19:17 ejbs: delimited 17:19:40 segv-: they are different from undelimited continuations like in scheme 17:19:58 Bike: Hoh, right. Oops. 17:19:59 Bike: correct, and i would be more than happy with delimited continuations. 17:19:59 benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:51a:b567:f220:1ca7] has joined #lisp 17:20:14 er, that was directed at ejbs, sorry 17:20:36 a good interface for threading would also be nice 17:20:46 What about bordeaux-threads? 17:21:03 wait 17:21:59 any idea why condition-broadcast isn't in bordeaux-threads? 17:22:11 (but condition-notify is) 17:23:05 bobbysmith 17:23:08 I think I was talking about STM 17:23:23 segv-: Didn't someone (Nikodemus?) write about that in a blog post that was posted to /r/lisp recently? 17:24:00 Denommus: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-stm/ works enough (with the limitations that it has) 17:24:11 segv-: cool 17:24:32 ejbs: pkhuong did, http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2013/09/19/all-you-need-is-call-slash-cc/ 17:24:54 er, did you mean condition-broadcast, not delimted continuations, sorry 17:24:57 pnpuff [~l@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:25:50 -!- axion [~axion@20.sub-70-197-193.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:27:24 on something like (let ((y 7)) 17:27:24 (defun scope-test (x) 17:27:24 (list x y))), that it's lexical, that it carries it's env, means that it's like (let ((y 5)) 17:27:24 (scope-test 3)) 17:27:24 (3 7) and could be thought as (let ((y 5)) (let ((y 7)) (scope-test 3))), such that scope-test sees it's the bindiny of y from the immediate surrounding env, not the outer one...for example.... 17:27:26 Denommus: https://github.com/cosmos72/stmx/ 17:28:02 Uhm, what is oleo talking about? 17:28:07 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 17:28:24 oleoisms 17:28:29 about some wordings which still maybe not clear to some peeps on first encounters especially... 17:29:43 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:30:04 oleo: and there's all of this: http://www.cliki.net/proposed%20ansi%20revisions%20and%20clarifications 17:30:08 (block twin (block twin (return-from twin 1)) 2) => 2 17:30:19 when an intervening block with the same name has been established, in which case the outer block is shadowed by the inner one. 17:30:34 which is the wording from clhs for example.... 17:30:54 i would rather tend to say the outer block is shadowing the inner one... 17:31:10 which is not true 17:31:14 bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-109-192-208-037.hsi6.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 17:31:15 why ? 17:31:26 because it's factually incorrect 17:31:34 sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.99.96] has joined #lisp 17:31:37 paul0 [~paul0@189.26.128.102.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:31:39 explain please 17:31:57 from where does it actually return ? 17:32:01 and what value ? 17:32:12 what you said bears no relation to reality 17:32:13 -!- zmyrgel [~zmyrgel@a91-153-150-75.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:32:16 (block twin (block twin (return-from twin 1)) 2) => (block twin 1 2) => 2 17:32:19 super easy 17:32:24 -!- sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.99.96] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:32:31 -!- hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:32:38 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:32:43 the inner block shadows the outer block 17:32:51 zmyrgel [~zmyrgel@a91-153-150-75.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 17:33:15 _d3f [~gnu@nl1.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 17:33:22 axion [~axion@20.sub-70-197-193.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:30 Hi, in this [1] post xach calls his package #:stumpgrinder. What is the purpose of #? [1]=http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html?nojs=1 17:33:32 sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.99.96] has joined #lisp 17:33:43 like you would expect it and like clhs says 17:33:53 bad_alloc: uninterned symbol used for its name 17:33:56 clhs #: 17:33:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhe.htm 17:34:03 ya but see shadow v.t. 1. to override the meaning of. ``That binding of X shadows an outer one.'' 2. to hide the presence of. ``That macrolet of F shadows the outer flet of F.'' 3. to replace. ``That package shadows the symbol cl:car with its own symbol car.'' 17:34:22 can you just stop, oleo 17:34:32 -!- sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.99.96] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:34:43 oleo: that just confirms what ehaliewicz just said 17:34:55 stassats`: Why is the package name supposed to be uninterned? 17:35:13 it isn't supposed 17:35:22 it's supposed to be a string designator 17:35:43 sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.99.96] has joined #lisp 17:35:49 using strings breaks when people get the idea that the default readtable-case is not worthy them 17:36:20 interning in the current package is not a good idea, interning into :keyword is safe, but some people feel it's a waste 17:36:22 Bike ? 17:36:57 -!- sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.99.96] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:37:07 stassats`: ah that makes sense. thank you :) 17:37:09 bad_alloc: By "waste" stassats` is merely talking about memory usage (please correct me if I'm wrong) 17:37:41 memory usage can be actually less with interned symbols 17:37:46 sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.99.96] has joined #lisp 17:38:10 but the package hashtable may become larger, becoming 0.000000000001% slower 17:38:32 i'd be more worried about tab completion. it's not very important either way, though 17:38:43 (memory usage can be lower because you reuse the same string) 17:38:43 -!- axion [~axion@20.sub-70-197-193.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:38:59 i just use :package :symbol 17:39:00 -!- sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.99.96] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:39:13 since it's not 1980s anymore 17:39:49 sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.99.96] has joined #lisp 17:39:50 ahh my bad i think i got it 17:40:15 and i would prefer package and symbol instead, if the package from which asdf loads things was standardized 17:40:30 nope 17:40:33 -!- antonv [5d7d2a42@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:40:36 -!- sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.99.96] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:41:30 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:42:37 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 17:42:42 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 17:43:15 hwiersma [~hwiersma@S0106602ad08e475a.ok.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:18 sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.99.96] has joined #lisp 17:44:10 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-1-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:44:13 -!- sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.99.96] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:45:12 sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.99.96] has joined #lisp 17:45:46 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:45:50 -!- sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.99.96] has left #lisp 17:46:07 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 17:46:22 antgreen [~green@67-207-116-150.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 17:46:48 -!- smazga [~Adium@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:47:09 block outer (block inner (return-from inner 1)) 2) => 2 17:47:12 -!- sirdancealo3 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:47:26 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-1-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:47:39 isn't return-from supposed to transfer control from inner there ? 17:47:53 what are you trying to demonstrate with this example? 17:47:55 or is it that the control gets transferred to the outer block just ? 17:48:02 you are incomprehensible, oleo. 17:48:09 not to the toplevel ? 17:48:20 clhs block 17:48:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_block.htm 17:48:24 clhs return-from 17:48:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_ret_fr.htm 17:48:38 no i got my where my confusion stems from 17:48:51 Great. Now to work on our confusion. 17:48:54 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-1-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 17:49:04 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:49:18 i thought that the meaning of transfer control meant to go directly to the top-level that's why... 17:49:44 that's entirely incorrect 17:49:52 it just gets transfferred to the next outer... 17:49:53 ja 17:49:56 ok 17:49:59 it must be hard to learn a language when you make everything up instead of reading. 17:50:10 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 17:50:12 that's incorrect too 17:50:12 O_o 17:50:16 ? 17:50:20 what is correct then ? 17:50:25 They're named. Look at the names. 17:50:42 it's pointless, oleo always does this. 17:50:58 ok then why does it still return 2 ? 17:51:09 because block has an implicit progn 17:51:22 oh man 17:51:25 (block outer (block inner (return-from inner 1)) 2) == (block outer 2) 17:51:33 i thought it was bare..... 17:51:49 ok thanks... 17:51:54 because you refuse to read the reference in favor of your own bizarre ideas 17:52:45 (block name form1 (return-from name 10) form2), form1 is evaluated, and after return-from the whole block form returns a value of 10 and form2 is not evaluated 17:53:06 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:55:07 peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-50ddcc-79.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:57:41 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 17:58:28 -!- antgreen [~green@67-207-116-150.static.wiline.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:58:41 -!- pnpuff [~l@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:59:27 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-1-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:01:04 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:01:44 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:02:03 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 18:02:12 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:02:18 spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has joined #lisp 18:02:36 ya that's linear....my issue was with the nested one, and i didn't pay attention to the implicit progn thing it seems.... 18:03:11 -!- shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-fkvyjjktdxigexxl] has quit [Quit: shridhar] 18:03:26 you'll have a hard time finding things without an implicit progn 18:03:34 ya ? 18:03:40 which ones ? 18:03:47 are there any ? 18:04:05 or can i safely assume implicit progns always ? 18:04:13 there are 18:04:17 aha 18:04:27 i should make a list of them 18:04:50 you shouldn't, it's pretty clear when something wants a single form returning a value 18:04:59 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:05:02 hmmmmm 18:06:37 Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:23 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.109] has joined #lisp 18:07:55 greensleeves [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 18:07:56 -!- spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:08:37 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:09:37 elf_clr9 [~elf_clr9@119.235.55.107] has joined #lisp 18:09:41 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 18:09:57 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Client Quit] 18:10:10 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has joined #lisp 18:10:30 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 18:12:10 selrahal [~selrahal@ec2-54-208-96-161.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 18:12:29 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-1-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:12:31 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 18:12:41 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:13:26 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has joined #lisp 18:14:10 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:14 pavelpenev [~quassel@130-204-14-33.2075264485.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:27 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:15:29 -!- elf_clr9 [~elf_clr9@119.235.55.107] has left #lisp 18:15:38 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:45 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:15:47 foeniks [~fevon@p5091F6AF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:16:28 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has joined #lisp 18:16:53 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:17:02 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 18:18:57 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Client Quit] 18:19:10 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 18:21:48 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:23:13 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-116-250.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:52 -!- greensleeves [~l@84.233.246.170] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:25:04 scampbell [~scampbell@mail.scampbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:14 -!- willyfrog [~willyfrog@146.255.102.14.gigas.com] has quit [Quit: restarting server] 18:29:33 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:30:01 willyfrog [~willyfrog@146.255.102.14.gigas.com] has joined #lisp 18:30:38 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:30:53 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 18:32:25 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 18:32:46 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:36:06 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:36:40 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:37:18 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:38:31 josemanuel [~josemanue@255.Red-83-35-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:05 Guest36090 [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 18:39:55 I'm trying to read data from a file. Entries look like this: (:ID 3 :TYPE VARIABLE :DATA NIL) and are separated by newlines. If I use this code [1] I get an error complaining that package "3" can't be found. Is the plist being read incorrectly? How do I fix this? [1]=http://cxg.de/_488cfb.htm 18:40:29 -!- selrahal [~selrahal@ec2-54-208-96-161.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 18:40:35 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 18:40:41 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:40:43 are you sure it's not 3:TYPE 18:40:45 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@255.Red-83-35-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:41:16 -!- CrazyEddy [~luscious@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:42:27 Bike: yes. this is copied directly from the file: (:id 3 :type Variable :data nil) 18:42:28 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:19 (defun read-data (path-to-file) 18:43:19 (with-open-file (file path-to-file) 18:43:19 (loop for line = (read-line file nil 'eof) 18:43:19 until (eq line 'eof) 18:43:20 CrazyEddy [~cupidinou@113.52.233.162] has joined #lisp 18:43:22 -!- CrazyEddy [~cupidinou@113.52.233.162] has quit [Changing host] 18:43:22 CrazyEddy [~cupidinou@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 18:43:24 oops, sorry. 18:44:11 Well, it works for me. 18:44:42 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:44:42 Any chance I can see the data file? 18:44:42 center alignment? really? 18:44:46 i can't read it 18:45:26 Bike: I just grepped the file and there was a malformed entry somewhere below: (:start-id 2:type [...]). It just happened that the first entry contained a 3. sorry for the false alert :) 18:45:40 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-14-77.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:45:40 a ha 18:45:49 bad_alloc: consider using a better paste service 18:46:11 this one is atrocious 18:46:25 http://paste.lisp.org is a good choice 18:46:25 stassats`: That's odd. Will do. A few weeks ago it didn't center everything. 18:47:06 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 18:48:57 tertl3-laptop [~tertl3-la@75.139.64.89] has joined #lisp 18:49:48 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c1fw237.constantcontact.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:49:52 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 18:50:12 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c1fw237.constantcontact.com] has joined #lisp 18:50:50 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:51:49 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Client Quit] 18:52:18 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:58:30 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 19:02:07 -!- Aramur [~arare@9.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 19:04:06 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has joined #lisp 19:04:36 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:05:38 ubikation [~ubikation@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:41 -!- benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:51a:b567:f220:1ca7] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 19:08:39 -!- ejbs [~user@h-136-1-29.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:14:05 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.109] has joined #lisp 19:14:20 ECL defines the function LOG (of course) and si::LOG1P (LOG 10.0) --> 2.3025851 (si::LOG1P 10.0) --> 2.3978953 forgive me, but I can't figure out what LOG1P does - does anyone know? 19:16:15 double u = 1.0 + x; 19:16:16 if (u == 1) { 19:16:16 return 0.0; 19:16:16 } else { 19:16:18 return (log(u) * x)/(u - 1.0); 19:16:21 } 19:16:29 drmeister: ^^ that's log1p 19:17:04 I know that - what is it there for? 19:17:05 log(1+x)*x/x as it seems 19:17:06 (defun mylog1p (x) (/ (* (log (+ 1 x)) x) x)) 19:17:27 That will have poor accuracy for certain values of x 19:17:36 log1p calculates it with a more careful method. 19:18:13 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has quit [Quit: Ragequit] 19:18:42 perhaps http://www.mathworks.de/de/help/matlab/ref/log1p.html 19:18:55 Common Lisp has a lot of code to "do the right thing" with its numerical stack. 19:19:05 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has joined #lisp 19:19:22 That's what is nice about lisp: implementations embodies the best they can provide, so users don't have to think about those details. 19:19:30 s/dies/dy/ 19:19:45 flip214 & ggole: Thank you very much - that helps a lot. 19:19:54 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:20:46 I'm in the process of implementing the numerical stack - it's a lot of code. 19:21:06 Try not to do that. Reusing somebody else's will save you much pain. 19:21:10 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 19:21:17 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:18 I hope the ANSI CL tests test it rigorously 'cause I'm doing my best but sure I'm building bugs into my implementation. 19:21:36 :-) 19:22:15 ggole: In a way I am - I'm translating ECL's C-based implementation into C++ - I'm leaving the ECL copyright notice in of course. 19:22:31 There is still a lot of branching. 19:22:47 Testing on types and values and branching. 19:22:55 -!- bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-109-192-208-037.hsi6.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:23:29 Hmm, seems painful. Good luck. 19:23:45 Yes - yes it is. 19:28:19 francogrex [~user@91.179.198.37] has joined #lisp 19:30:10 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 19:30:13 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 19:31:02 oudeis [~oudeis@109.65.105.19] has joined #lisp 19:41:15 drmeister: That sounds like a good reason to have a good tagging scheme. 19:41:30 Tagging scheme? 19:43:00 I wonder if wouldn't make sense to extract some pattern from tag bits of both operands in the generic operator and use it for an indirect jump. 19:43:41 drmeister: tag you're a type. 19:44:31 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:44:33 And if one of the opetand's type is known in advance (declaration, type inference), only one pattern has to be extracted with the base or the multiplier of the indirect jump being different. 19:44:44 You mean dispatch on the type of the arguments? ECL does it with lots of switch statements. I do it using C++ virtual functions. 19:45:13 It just seems both memory-compact and fast. 19:47:02 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:49:51 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:50:04 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:51:09 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 19:52:09 -!- mihirrege [~mihirrege@gateway/tor-sasl/geremih] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:52:43 fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:55:18 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:18 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@130-204-14-33.2075264485.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:55:27 pavelpenev [~quassel@130-204-14-33.2075264485.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:29 mihirrege [~mihirrege@gateway/tor-sasl/geremih] has joined #lisp 20:01:29 -!- 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has joined #lisp 23:38:10 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 23:40:03 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9D6D1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42:46 trying to learn lisp from this book and using mit scheme. I put (define (sum-of-squares x y) 23:42:47 (+ (square x) (square y))) 23:42:47 (sum-of-squares 3 4) into edwin and got an unbound variable error when I tried to execute it. 23:42:51 Any tips? 23:43:18 probably you haven't defined square? you want #scheme, though 23:44:20 Thanks 23:44:35 -!- s00pcan [~chris@108-208-64-149.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:44:50 s00pcan [~chris@108-208-64-149.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:30 -!- nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:51:26 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:15 axion [~axion@70.sub-70-197-192.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:27 -!- Akashic_afk [~JackTheRi@CPE18593398c726-CM18593398c723.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:05:43 -!- The_TORmentor [~the_TORme@unaffiliated/the-tormentor/x-3958522] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:07:03 ludocode_ [~quassel@108.161.126.79] has joined #lisp 00:07:34 The_TORmentor [~the_TORme@unaffiliated/the-tormentor/x-3958522] has joined #lisp 00:07:35 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has left #lisp 00:09:35 -!- ludocode [~quassel@206-248-191-29.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:12:53 -!- spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:13:12 ISF [~ivan@187.64.222.94] has joined #lisp 00:17:54 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-50ddcc-79.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:18:11 zRecursive [~czsq888@171.216.98.158] has joined #lisp 00:19:04 spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has joined #lisp 00:20:51 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 00:21:16 -!- The_TORmentor [~the_TORme@unaffiliated/the-tormentor/x-3958522] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:22:59 The_TORmentor [~the_TORme@unaffiliated/the-tormentor/x-3958522] has joined #lisp 00:24:33 leo_33 [~hejhekj@37.98.192.145] has joined #lisp 00:24:43 in your opinion why would a headhunter continue sending you info about a job after a job interview? 00:25:28 they want your shrunken head in their collection 00:25:37 there is no other possibility 00:25:47 what does that mean? 00:26:04 it means you're going to adorn someone's living room! 00:26:27 why do companies use these guys 00:26:29 i dont get it 00:26:44 he says he used to work for them and so on. its quite a big one 00:27:07 ltbarcly [~textual@109.231.229.69] has joined #lisp 00:27:34 leo_33: the serious answer is "this is #lisp, not #recruiting", and the non-rude serious answer is take the previous answer and "because recruiters want to make sure you get the job so they get their cut, so they have an interest in giving you more info during the interview process" 00:28:35 -!- leo_33 [~hejhekj@37.98.192.145] has left #lisp 00:31:43 -!- gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-6-149.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:31:54 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@109.231.229.69] has quit 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Nevermind, I just emailed him. 05:33:37 zRecursive [~czsq888@171.217.22.207] has joined #lisp 05:39:05 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 05:50:21 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 05:51:14 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.180.110.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:55:04 akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has joined #lisp 05:55:57 -!- akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has quit [Client Quit] 06:01:36 oudeis [~oudeis@109.65.105.19] has joined #lisp 06:02:01 foeniks [~fevon@p5499C01E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:04:20 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has left #lisp 06:07:03 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: lifeform experiment lost because all hope lost] 06:08:51 -!- cnl [~pony@bitdiddle.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:14:17 mrSpec [~Spec@77-253-15-4.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 06:14:19 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@77-253-15-4.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:14:19 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[~ubikation@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:57 recycle [~recycle@2602:304:b2eb:e570:18a1:5c3d:cc3d:76a7] has joined #lisp 12:21:22 -!- Guest44721 [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:22:37 bishop_pass..does anyone know that guy? 12:23:24 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:26:14 -!- LiamH [~none@129-2-129-147.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:26:23 LiamH [~none@129-2-129-147.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:27:05 how to compile dynamically produced code in a given package? 12:27:30 would I play with *package* directly? 12:28:55 -!- eeezkil2 [~eeezkil@213.226.63.183] has quit [Changing host] 12:28:55 eeezkil2 [~eeezkil@unaffiliated/eeezkil] has joined #lisp 12:29:08 -!- eeezkil2 is now known as eeezkil 12:29:23 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: Odchzm] 12:29:32 dim: how to compile dynamically produced code using a given string? 12:29:41 Would I play with the string directly? 12:29:41 s-expr 12:29:50 dim: your question is meaningless. 12:30:00 compilation has nothing to do with packages. 12:30:16 (compile nil (lamdba (a b c) (myfunc a b))) 12:30:27 myfunc is defined in the package foo 12:30:37 So what? 12:30:39 how do I make it so that compile finds foo:myfunc? 12:30:44 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 12:30:46 or even foo::myfunc? 12:30:47 use foo:myfunc duh! 12:30:52 or even use foo::myfunc duh! 12:31:00 well that's not that easy. another idea? 12:31:44 If you have a sexp (+ 2 "24") how easy is it to get a sexp (+ 2 24) ? 12:31:53 -!- LiamH [~none@129-2-129-147.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:31:58 mmm, maybe I just shouldn't even try to parse anything and use the reader here, that said 12:32:05 Why did you produce a sexp (+ 2 "24") in the first place??? 12:32:06 LiamH [~none@129-2-129-147.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:32:18 pjb: I like you and your skills, but you have to realise you're not helpful here 12:32:31 dim: why is it not myfunc foo:myfunc??? 12:32:45 It has nothing to do with compilation. It's the way you built the sexp! 12:32:58 You should master your symbols. 12:33:08 cl-user::myfunc is not foo::myfunc. 12:33:10 yeah, and maybe I shouldn't parse the sexp at all in fact 12:33:20 and let read-from-string do its things 12:33:21 Learn how to get foo::myfunc instead of cl-user::myfunc. 12:33:39 dim: again, you're not making any sense. Parsing has nothing to do with it. 12:33:46 kiuma [~kiuma@88-149-138-107.v4.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 12:33:54 It's when INTERN is called that the package is specified. 12:33:55 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.19.6] has joined #lisp 12:34:01 read gets strings and return sexps with interned symbols, right? 12:34:09 Yes. 12:34:14 clhs read 12:34:14 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm 12:34:27 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:34:27 so why would I write another code to do the same after all 12:34:29 Mind the Affected By: section. 12:35:45 -!- Guest88929 [~neoncorte@177.39.189.243] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:36:42 (let* ((foo (find-package "FOO")) (*package* (or foo (error "No package named FOO")))) (read)) 12:37:07 Guest88929 [~neoncorte@177.39.189.243] has joined #lisp 12:37:41 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.86.134] has joined #lisp 12:38:58 dim: but this may not be what you want anyways. FOO may not contain the operators you want. Why didn't you input (foo::myfunc 42) instead of (myfunc 42)? In any case, you should document what *package* is when you read your expressions. 12:39:52 Does anyone know of a numerical function test suite for Common Lisp? Something like the ANSI CL test suite but one that checks to make sure that LOG etc. are providing the correct values 12:39:53 Notice how REPL prompts often contain the name of *package*. 12:40:20 drmeister: perhaps the tests in maxima play this role? 12:40:32 If you can compile and run maxima tests successfully, that'd be something. 12:40:33 -!- LiamH [~none@129-2-129-147.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:40:47 LiamH [~none@129-2-129-147.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:40:50 pjb: I'm reworking what I produce now 12:41:17 I didn't want to intern both the function names and arguments/bindings into the same package but I'm seeing that's what read does anyways 12:41:41 dim: you make prepare a FOO-USER package, to read from. 12:41:48 s/make/can/ 12:42:31 (defpackage "FOO-USER" (:use "CL" "FOO")) (let ((*package* (find-package "FOO-USER"))) (read)) 12:42:50 Good point. I'll look into that. 12:44:58 pjb: I'm using pgloader.transforms for that, same idea 12:45:27 this package is where (could be) user-provided data transformation functions are going to be expected/found 12:45:54 Then (use-package "FOO" "PGLOADER.TRANSFORMS") 12:45:56 but well my problem about symbols were related to argument names qualification, which seems stupid 12:46:01 I'm translating CL math functions from Ecl-C to C++. The C functions use lots of switch tables and in C++ it is more natural to use virtual functions and inheritance. I am a glutton for punishment. 12:46:11 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-cjxedjibgarjocrv] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:46:11 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:46:11 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@109.65.105.19] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:46:11 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:46:11 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:46:11 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:46:11 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:46:11 -!- s00pcan [~chris@108-208-64-149.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:46:11 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:46:11 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:46:11 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-9-223.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:46:11 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:46:11 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.69.9] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:46:11 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:46:11 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@bayesianconspiracy.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:46:11 -!- ferada [~ferada@37.221.196.86] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:46:11 -!- Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:46:11 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:46:11 -!- ski [~md9slj@t-2020-05.studat.chalmers.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:46:18 ferada [~ferada@37.221.196.86] has joined #lisp 12:46:18 ski [~md9slj@t-2020-05.studat.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 12:46:20 ineiros [~itniemin@bayesianconspiracy.org] has joined #lisp 12:46:27 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:28 ivan\ [~ivan@108-213-76-179.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:30 pjb: that'd be the idea, I'm now back to using my s-exp parser and wondering why, but well it's ok in the middle of the parser I already have here I guess 12:46:33 drmeister: anyways, you should write tests before implementation, no? ;-) 12:46:33 -!- CrazyEddy [~cupidinou@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:46:34 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:38 arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-xkyotwwemroaxfny] has joined #lisp 12:46:39 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@108-213-76-179.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:46:39 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 12:46:46 the surrounding language does not look like lisp at all, obviously 12:47:12 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 12:47:14 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:47:16 oudeis [~oudeis@109.65.105.19] has joined #lisp 12:47:16 Quadrescence [~quad@c-24-4-5-176.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:16 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:47:17 dim: 1- it doesn't matter much what you intern in package: you can consider all the symbols always exist, eternally. 12:47:17 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 12:47:17 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 12:47:25 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@c-24-4-5-176.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:47:25 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 12:47:58 in generated code intended to be compiled, would figuring out the list of unused parameters and issuing (declare (ignore ,@unused)) condisered pedantry? 12:48:04 dim: 2- implementing a parser that interns things in different packages is bound or be very difficult (semantically), and confusing. 12:48:08 s00pcan [~chris@108-208-64-149.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:47 dim: and 3- once compiled, variables names are eliminated so it doesn't matter what package they were interned into. They could even be uninterned symbols! 12:48:56 well again that's not a lisp that I'm reading 12:49:11 (let ((vname (gensym))) (compile nil (lambda (,vname) (foo:myfunc ,vname))) 12:49:20 sorry: (let ((vname (gensym))) (compile nil `(lambda (,vname) (foo:myfunc ,vname)))) 12:49:32 see http://git.tapoueh.org/?p=pgloader.git;a=blob;f=parser.lisp;h=bcc7e6227fb23bbb5fe5a01a47869fe40a292ffa;hb=HEAD for some context 12:49:36 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.86.134] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:49:50 Ah if you're not reading lisp sexps, then you can do whatever you want indeed. 12:49:54 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:59 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 12:50:00 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 12:50:01 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 12:50:16 And then why bother with interned symbols? Just use make-symbol. 12:50:24 the idea is to offer some extensibility for users 12:51:08 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.69.9] has joined #lisp 12:51:17 the user is allowed to name fields read in a text file (e.g. csv) and then transform that data on the fly using s-exprs and the pgloader.transforms package of already defined functions 12:51:26 -!- shridhar is now known as shridhar_afk 12:51:33 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:51:38 doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-9-223.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:52:10 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.86.134] has joined #lisp 12:52:11 again, if you don't read a lisp sexp, you must deal with your own symbol table, and map your symbols to lisp symbols. You don't need to generate interned symbols for lexical variables and parameters. 12:52:14 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 12:52:41 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:52:49 it's mostly static, except for those extensible parts 12:53:19 I should write tests as I do the translation - when I can see all the different paths control can take. 12:53:25 CrazyEddy [~eurycepha@113.52.233.162] has joined #lisp 12:54:12 -!- CrazyEddy [~eurycepha@113.52.233.162] has quit [Changing host] 12:54:12 CrazyEddy [~eurycepha@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 12:54:17 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:54:37 normanrichards [~normanric@adsl-108-82-80-51.dsl.aus2tx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:45 tylergoza [~tylergoza@72.29.34.246] has joined #lisp 12:57:40 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 12:58:21 -!- oleo [d4b81ecd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.184.30.205] has quit [] 13:01:21 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 13:01:41 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:02:45 -!- CrazyEddy [~eurycepha@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:06:29 echo-area [~user@123.120.237.147] has joined #lisp 13:07:49 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 13:07:50 lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:20 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:45 -!- ehu` [~ehu@62.140.137.37] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:10:53 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 13:11:05 ehu [~ehu@62.140.137.37] has joined #lisp 13:11:31 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@adsl-108-82-80-51.dsl.aus2tx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 13:12:19 leo_33 [~hejhekj@37.98.192.145] has joined #lisp 13:12:22 in your opinion are there any benefits to using a recruiter rather than applying directly to a job? 13:12:29 Pullphinger [~Pullphing@12.40.23.68] has joined #lisp 13:13:02 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 13:14:09 in your opinion are there any benefits to using a recruiter rather than applying directly to a job? 13:14:51 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:15:10 diadara [~diadara@27.107.166.239] has joined #lisp 13:15:19 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 13:15:34 no doubt... for the recruiter 13:15:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:17:32 CrazyEddy [~counterre@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 13:19:36 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 13:19:48 -!- diadara [~diadara@27.107.166.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:19:51 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.86.134] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:20:46 hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has joined #lisp 13:21:42 lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:02 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:22:49 leo: They might pretend to be your friend, if that's important to you. 13:24:44 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:25:21 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:26:15 -!- LiamH [~none@129-2-129-147.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:26:38 what is a good program to use for making flowcharts ? 13:27:59 ltbarcly [~textual@149.11.108.26] has joined #lisp 13:29:23 as far as the chances of actually getting the job 13:29:41 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@149.11.108.26] has quit [Client Quit] 13:30:15 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@109.65.105.19] has left #lisp 13:31:45 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 13:31:55 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:32:12 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:32:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-28-8.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:32:50 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9DC10.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:33:07 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:29 zophy: depends on the kind of flow chart. dot (graphviz) is easy to use. 13:34:54 loke_erc [~user@bb115-66-249-26.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:34:58 zophy: for some diagrams, I just write some lisp. See https://www.informatimago.com/articles/flpl/index.html 13:35:32 https://www.informatimago.com/articles/flpl/figure-2.png was generated by the lisp code referenced in the previous url. 13:42:54 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124.169.153.157] has joined #lisp 13:45:06 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-24-31-189.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:46:22 -!- Ayey_ [~rune1@0309ds7-ar.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:46:45 Oejet [~Oejet@unaffiliated/oejet] has joined #lisp 13:47:59 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 13:51:41 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9DC10.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:53:53 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 13:55:13 -!- loke_erc [~user@bb115-66-249-26.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:55:23 loke_erc [~user@bb115-66-249-26.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:55:35 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-243-208-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 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sleep.] 14:30:35 Hi. 14:32:05 -!- GuilOooo [~GuilOooo@AMontpellier-651-1-300-109.w92-143.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:32:21 GuilOooo [~GuilOooo@mlir.info] has joined #lisp 14:33:30 phf [~phf@mail.rslstoploss.com] has joined #lisp 14:33:30 -!- phf [~phf@mail.rslstoploss.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:33:49 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@14.142.215.209] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:35:23 phf [~phf@mail.rslstoploss.com] has joined #lisp 14:36:36 H4ns` [hans@netzhansa.com] has joined #lisp 14:36:57 -!- H4ns [hans@netzhansa.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:37:36 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:39:15 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9DC10.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:39:22 Freeway- [~Freeway-@546ABDEC.cm-12-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 14:39:41 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:39 _tca 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timeout: 260 seconds] 16:29:16 hwiersma [~hwiersma@S0106602ad08e475a.ok.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:52 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:29:52 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 16:30:02 -!- Guest889` [~neoncorte@177.39.189.243] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:30:05 hi 16:30:09 the_tormentor [~the_TORme@unaffiliated/the-tormentor/x-3958522] has joined #lisp 16:30:11 I got myself thinking today... 16:30:18 what is a good lisp compiler that is FOSS? 16:30:27 the_tormentor: SBCL 16:30:37 what is FOSS ? 16:30:48 free open source. 16:30:57 Denommus: i don't think that compiles to machine code 16:30:57 oleo: Free Open Source Software 16:31:04 the_tormentor: it does. 16:31:05 the_tormentor: it does compile to machine code 16:31:20 ccl is also foss and also does if you want some alternatives. 16:31:40 ECL, too, although ECL repl is interpreted, AFAIK 16:32:11 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.19.6] has quit [Quit: zzz...] 16:32:40 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 16:33:04 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 16:33:39 the_tormentor: SBCL is the best lisp compiler on Linux, but I heard it's often better to use CCL in other platforms 16:34:26 it's good to get in the habit of using both .. helps find bugs 16:35:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-28-8.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:36:39 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:37:00 diadara_ [~diadara@14.142.3.47] has joined #lisp 16:37:09 the_torm1ntor [~the_TORme@unaffiliated/the-tormentor/x-3958522] has joined #lisp 16:37:33 -!- the_tormentor [~the_TORme@unaffiliated/the-tormentor/x-3958522] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 16:37:53 -!- the_torm1ntor is now known as the_tormentor 16:38:59 anyway, I was thinking about how Rails generators would work if Rails was in Common Lisp. I was thinking that they would probably be only macros, but then... there's the version of migrations thing 16:39:42 is there a way to have an object with versions that can rollback in a Lisp image? 16:40:30 there are several object stores for CL 16:40:54 ebobby [~fms@38.99.41.36] has joined #lisp 16:41:13 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:44:04 smazga [~Adium@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:45:15 -!- the_tormentor [~the_TORme@unaffiliated/the-tormentor/x-3958522] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:46:26 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:47:14 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 16:48:22 recycle [~recycle@198-24-198-253.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:26 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9DC10.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:49:42 k0001 [~k0001@host198.190-138-109.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:49:48 Denommus: CLOS objects have versions, but they only roll forward. 16:50:09 ahahahah 16:51:12 the_TORmentor [~the_TORme@unaffiliated/the-tormentor/x-3958522] has joined #lisp 16:51:18 how do i compile with sbcl 16:51:28 clhs compile 16:51:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp.htm 16:51:31 clhs compile-fil 16:51:31 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for compile-fil. 16:51:32 clhs compile-file 16:51:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp_fi.htm 16:51:40 Denommus: Lots of migration libraries http://www.cliki.net/database 16:52:05 the_TORmentor: we have a standard, lose the habit of asking about sbcl, it's Common Lisp. 16:55:06 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:30 the_TORmentor: that said, SBCL compiles everything automatically anyways 16:55:33 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:55:39 doesn't work 16:55:59 the compile-file makes a .fasl 16:56:13 which is compiled. 16:56:19 it didn't make a binary file 16:56:22 are you confusing compilation and execu- yes. 16:56:25 the_TORmentor: you probably want save-lisp-and-die 16:57:20 unless you set compile-mode to 'interpret or so 16:57:34 i still need a lisp implementation to run the .fasl file 16:58:31 Yes. You can get an "independent" executable with save-lisp-and-die, but that is not the same thing as "compilation". 16:58:36 the_TORmentor: I see where your confusion is. First, you don't necessary want a implementation that compiles to machine code. You want one that save an image. 16:59:35 -!- [1]JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:00:44 Bike: i did that but when i try to run it it says "syntax error: ")" unexpected" 17:01:11 it doesnt make an ELF 17:01:26 the_TORmentor: you're not going to get far if you just flail around. check out the manual. 17:01:30 the_TORmentor: Maybe you're asking the wrong question, for example, you could even create a PE format (.exe) file that runs on arbitrary windows machines 17:01:44 Maybe there still a implementation around that compiles to C? I read that Kyoto Common Lisp did. 17:02:10 i dont want it to compile to C 17:02:18 i want it to compile to machine code 17:02:41 sbcl and ccl compile to machine code and can produce executables. 17:03:04 the_TORmentor: I know you don't. You could potentially compile the C code to an ELF. But you are still confusing compiling to machine code to making an executable. 17:03:11 <|3b|> didi: ecl compiles to C 17:03:19 |3b|: Ah, thank you. 17:03:37 <|3b|> the_TORmentor: unless you configure it otherwise, sbcl compiles almost everything you evaluate to machine code before evaluating it 17:04:16 |3b|: I'm pretty sure he doesn't understand that executables have specific file format based on the system 17:04:20 <|3b|> the_TORmentor: even implementations that never compile to machine code can produce standalone executables (as can the ones that compile to machine code) 17:05:09 the_TORm1ntor [~the_TORme@unaffiliated/the-tormentor/x-3958522] has joined #lisp 17:05:21 if you bunle the fasl in an object file ? 17:05:27 fasls 17:05:35 bundle*, bah 17:06:48 -!- the_TORmentor [~the_TORme@unaffiliated/the-tormentor/x-3958522] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:09:46 there's seems to be no way of compling lisp to ELF 17:10:00 -!- horusscope [~chatzilla@ip70-180-154-108.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:11:08 <|3b|> minion: tell the_TORm1ntor about logs 17:11:09 the_TORm1ntor: please look at logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 17:11:12 the_TORm1ntor: You are possibly confusing lisp way of doing things (image based live coding) with typical c-ish way of doing things (write, compile, run)? 17:11:51 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 17:12:04 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@14.142.3.47] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:13:08 nightshade427: yes 17:13:08 |3b|: either you have a machine that runs directly C code, therefore ecl compiles to machine code, or ecl uses gcc to compile to machine code, and therefore ecl compiles to machine code. In all cases, ecl compiles to machine code. 17:14:18 nightshade427: i know more lips than i do c though 17:14:29 lisp* 17:14:38 -!- shridhar_afk [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-aynspfjhhvsmpvfj] has quit [Quit: shridhar_afk] 17:15:30 diadara_ [~diadara@49.201.82.93] has joined #lisp 17:15:34 the_TORm1ntor: Ya, lisp has different workflow. It's image based for the most part. You load your code and can compile it into the image while it's running. When you get the image the way you like (running code and testing inside image repl) you can save the image as an executable. 17:16:16 that is annoying, nightshade427 17:16:24 seems like a lot more work has to be done 17:16:49 <|3b|> you can run it as a batch process same way you would with C if you really want to 17:17:03 there's elf.lisp to modify,read,write elf files tho.... 17:17:12 but that's not the same.... 17:17:36 the_TORm1ntor: for me its easier I just keep coding live until I get it the way I like then save image. Much easier then change a line of code, compile, run, oops made a mistake, change line, compile, run, oops, repeat 17:18:03 until your env gets unsafe.... 17:18:13 you have to keep it sane somehow.... 17:18:39 happened a few times too... 17:18:47 noticed it on the next restart.... 17:19:04 My files are saved. If it gets unstable I just "slime-restart-inferior-lisp" and quickoad and im back in business. Take about 1 second, and happens rarely. 17:19:05 and then had to adjust my code again.... 17:19:10 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 17:19:44 But, to each their own :) 17:19:48 lol 17:20:33 best solution is to start with a clean env, i.e. repl....if you get suspicious that things have gone....wrong.. 17:20:55 but that's ok mostly.... 17:21:15 does not happen often anyway.... 17:21:26 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:23:21 the_TORmentor [~the_TORme@unaffiliated/the-tormentor/x-3958522] has joined #lisp 17:23:41 nightshade427: i dont know how to do that stuff 17:23:41 also i dont use emacs 17:23:41 -!- the_TORm1ntor [~the_TORme@unaffiliated/the-tormentor/x-3958522] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 17:24:42 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-220-31-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 17:26:09 LiamH [~none@aes048148.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:27:59 -!- the_TORmentor [~the_TORme@unaffiliated/the-tormentor/x-3958522] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:28:28 -!- LiamH [~none@aes048148.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Client Quit] 17:29:21 the_TORmentor [~the_TORme@unaffiliated/the-tormentor/x-3958522] has joined #lisp 17:29:33 -!- the_TORmentor [~the_TORme@unaffiliated/the-tormentor/x-3958522] has quit [Client Quit] 17:29:53 the_TORmentor: Give it a shot, that could be why your having such a hard time with lisp workflow. 17:30:50 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-220-31-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:31:03 LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:31:40 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:31:55 mikeit [~mikeit@net-93-65-136-65.cust.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 17:33:14 cantstanya [~what@2001:5c0:1000:a::13f] has joined #lisp 17:37:45 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:38:51 I love lisp because it has no ceremony between you and your code (no boiler plate or going out of way to pleasing the system). If for some reason some form of ceremony does creep in (by repeated code patterns etc) you can remove that ceremony with a macro and your back to ceremony free. Even the development workflow is ceremony free (no long write, compile, run loop). It also has low ceremony deploys. Save image and scp to all 17:38:52 servers, done. No long cycle of deploy code, downloading third party libraries, building them, blah blah on each deploy (like ruby for example you have to deploy code, use bundler to download and compile third part libraries if needed, hope nothing breaks or is offline at the time, make sure all server have same ruby version and bundler versions, make sure you we server stuff is all configure right, blah blah). None of that with my 17:38:53 lisp system, I just scp to all serers and then tell all servers to run "myapp web" or "myapp background worker" depending on their role and I'm done it's all self contained. Love it! 17:39:01 Wow that was long, sorry :( 17:40:18 (And has typos) hopefully the idea came across though :) 17:40:25 ltbarcly [~textual@93.158.36.106] has joined #lisp 17:40:50 G-artigue [~lisberoia@232.216.79.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:44:21 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 17:44:36 tertl3-laptop [~tertl3-la@75.139.64.89] has joined #lisp 17:44:43 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@93.158.36.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:45:46 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:53 I use build app an have the "web" param start up restas server using cl-closure-template (no views and html are also compiled into image, and front end devs can still use html and js like they are see to). I have "background-worker" start of the lfarm cluster workers. 17:47:22 It's all in the same image 17:47:23 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.59.10] has joined #lisp 17:47:27 Awesomeness 17:47:37 Sorry got excited there :) 17:47:39 Hehe 17:47:53 :) 17:49:15 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:50:08 -!- smazga [~Adium@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:50:30 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:51:40 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 17:53:59 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:54:09 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@49.201.82.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:58:10 diadara_ [~diadara@27.107.28.110] has joined #lisp 17:58:32 -!- leo_33 [~hejhekj@37.98.192.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:58:53 leo_33 [~hejhekj@37.98.192.145] has joined #lisp 18:03:16 Confused why clojure people are "salivating" (their own words) over this, wasn't this done in scheme and Common Lisp like forever ago? .. https://github.com/clojure-numerics/expresso 18:05:10 (Not trying to troll or start a flame, really wondering if I missed something special about it) 18:06:12 Going to hit clojure channel and see (wish me luck) 18:08:29 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:09:47 Going to hit clojure channel and see (wish me luck) 18:10:45 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-237-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:18:22 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 18:20:08 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 18:21:30 Yep it's the same basically, just done in clojure. 18:21:49 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:22:18 nightshade427: It doesn't have to be original work to be valuable. 18:22:20 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 18:23:40 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:24:35 Indeed 18:24:36 Was just curious if there was something new in the way it did it 18:24:37 Since people were super excited about it 18:26:13 clojurers are always super excited about things that existed forever 18:27:42 Thinking of looking at clojure next to see if has similar properties I mentioned above. 18:28:53 Will head to clojure chan and see what they think :) 18:29:29 In mean time only used lisp really for 4 months or so and love it! I'm getting a lot done in it. 18:29:39 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:31:13 Aramur [~arare@9.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:55 -!- G-artigue [~lisberoia@232.216.79.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:33:20 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:14 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.249.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:36:21 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.227.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 18:37:19 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-24-31-189.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:37:39 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@27.107.28.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:37:45 diadara__ [~diadara@27.107.211.38] has joined #lisp 18:38:03 -!- leo_33 [~hejhekj@37.98.192.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:38:30 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:40:13 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:27 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 18:41:29 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:41:32 mrrob [~mrrob@173-30-97-12.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:35 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 18:43:36 joe9 [~user@ip70-179-153-227.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:57 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@27.107.211.38] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:47:21 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 18:47:36 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:47:46 diadara [~diadara@49.201.48.195] has joined #lisp 18:48:00 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-143-223.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:16 ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:32 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 18:48:39 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 18:48:42 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Client Quit] 18:51:53 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:52:04 leo_33 [~hejhekj@37.98.192.145] has joined #lisp 18:52:48 -!- diadara [~diadara@49.201.48.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:53:00 -!- mrrob [~mrrob@173-30-97-12.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:53:40 mrrob [~mrrob@173-30-97-12.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 18:54:28 I want to genuinely ask about pros of using clojure over Common Lisp, but don't want to start a flame war. :( 18:54:43 In clojure chan 18:55:03 Might just have to bite bullet and ask and hope it doesn't spin out of control? 18:55:08 nightshade427: These types of questions are hardly ever productive. 18:55:23 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:55:28 It would be for me though to know what clojure offers 18:55:42 nightshade427: you might as well throw in scheme, racket, ocaml, and haskell in there too 18:55:56 Na, just want to know about clojure for now 18:56:07 -!- togger37 [~togger37@185.25.87.13] has quit [Quit: togger37] 18:56:20 nightshade427: learn both 18:56:21 I mean abstract features it has that maybe Common Lisp doesn't 18:56:32 nightshade427: nothing 18:56:52 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:10 Ya I know for me to make call I would have to learn both, but was hoping someone already knew both and could tell me 18:57:24 nightshade427: there's nothing you can do in clojure that you can't do in clisp 18:57:28 not sure about vice versa 18:57:29 here's a decent start. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11223403/what-are-the-differences-between-clojure-scheme-racket-and-common-lisp 18:57:55 -!- mrrob [~mrrob@173-30-97-12.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:58:27 duggiefresh: Awesome thanks :) 18:59:02 -!- joe9 [~user@ip70-179-153-227.fv.ks.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:59:09 Ya seems that immutable functional style, STM, and java interop are the top three reasons. 18:59:15 -!- Aramur [~arare@9.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 18:59:43 I can do all that in CL easily so might not even bother then? 19:00:23 JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:00:26 queasy44 [~queasy44@185.25.87.13] has joined #lisp 19:00:36 Thanks all :) 19:00:56 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 19:04:42 I've been reading through Functional Common Lisp and I'm a little uncertain of how you're supposed to lay out a Lisp project. Do you make a package and include an entry point, like Python? What should the end result look like? 19:07:22 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-203-73.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:08:30 I can make functions all day, but it seems like the only way I have of making anything go is via the REPL. 19:09:19 fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:10:09 -!- paddymahoney [~paddymaho@24.137.221.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:12:17 Ketsuban: It depends on the implementation of Common Lisp that you are working with. If you're using SBCL, then sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die can be used to create an executable. 19:15:10 Other Lisps allow you to save the current interpreter state, including all the code you've loaded. You then start up that saved image and call a "main" function. 19:15:54 Ah, okay. Thanks, that clears things up a bit. 19:16:36 Ketsuban: Also, you can download some Lisp libraries using Quicklisp and see how they are organized if you have questions about packages and compiling with ASDF. 19:17:07 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 19:19:19 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:22:27 Ketsuban: Write a ASDF file that describes your project (system). List as the first file a `packages.lisp' file which will define one or more packages of your system. The rest of the files should be the ones which implement your system. 19:27:20 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:58 l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 19:28:23 -!- l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 19:28:27 nipra [~nipra@122.177.86.9] has joined #lisp 19:30:50 sdemarre [~serge@91.180.110.162] has joined #lisp 19:31:06 -!- mikeit [~mikeit@net-93-65-136-65.cust.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:31:20 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:31:20 urandom__ [~user@p548A2B14.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:31:47 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 19:32:03 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 19:34:21 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-47.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:43:08 nightshade427: there is a thing that you can do in Clojure that you can't in Common Lisp (for now). Android applications 19:43:27 jason__ [~jason@cpe-75-185-175-103.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:42 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-61-68.toya.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:43:55 -!- jason__ [~jason@cpe-75-185-175-103.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:45:20 killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-61-68.toya.net.pl] has joined #lisp 19:47:44 k0001_ [~k0001@host143.190-136-199.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:48:12 Aramur [~arare@9.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:43 -!- Aramur [~arare@9.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:50:18 Nice 19:50:35 Not writing android apps, but good to know 19:50:41 Thanks 19:50:53 Denommus: I'm sure I've seen CL apps for Android. 19:51:15 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host198.190-138-109.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:51:49 gleag: technically, you can build a CL app in Android with ECL, but you won't be capable of using the Android API, so you're limited to the same things that a C++ application in Android 19:52:18 Denommus: There's certainly Maxima for Android, at least. 19:52:41 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:52:45 oh, yeah, and there's mocl, but that's proprietary 19:52:56 nisstyre: "nothing" <- isn't that a bit premature? Immutable-by-default is pretty nice for compiler transformations. (Pity that Clojure doesn't (yet?) support algebra-based transformations - it's probably the best dialect of Lisp for this kind of stuff.) 19:53:14 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:22 I was thinking if it was possible to create android applications with ECL + Qt5.1 (I don't even know if commonqt already supports Qt5.1, though) 19:53:23 (I have Fortress-like stuff in mind, mind you.) 19:53:49 Denommus: You'd probably have more luck with the Ubuntu stuff. 19:54:02 gleag: why? 19:54:27 I got pure Qt (without the Ubuntu stuff) running in Android 19:54:29 I believe that Qt is sort of native there, as is the support of running almost anything you can run on vanilla Linux. 19:55:22 it is, but I don't see why this matters :P 19:55:36 IIRC, Qt is also being ported to iOS and WP 19:56:03 if commonqt supports Qt5.1 (I don't know if it does), then I assume I could get ECL + Qt running on Android 19:57:17 hm, it seems commonqt is still in Qt4.8 19:57:35 Buckethead [~jason@cpe-75-185-175-103.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:51 Well, there's the matter of memory consumption, I guess. Since the Ubuntu thingy runs on Qt already, launching a Qt app on Ubuntu only loads the app, but launching a Qt app on Android has to load Qt first. 20:01:11 (I hope I got that one right.) 20:01:25 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: patrickwonders] 20:02:07 hi, does anyone know if osicat works on allegro? i got a weird message about "unable to load foreign library (LIBOSICAT), ...quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/osicat-20130720-git/posix/libosicat.so: file too short 20:05:50 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:09:52 ubikation [~ubikation@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:38 -!- Trenif [~Lefeni@c-0941e555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:14:03 Lefeni [~Lefeni@c-0941e555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:14:07 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:21:57 -!- arnsa [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [] 20:24:39 -!- ggole [~ggole@124-148-193-19.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 20:25:22 arnsa [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 20:27:23 l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 20:27:46 -!- l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 20:29:17 -!- ubikation [~ubikation@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:29:49 -!- `fogus is now known as fogus|gone 20:30:14 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:31:19 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.86.9] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:32:12 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:33:08 paddymahoney [~paddymaho@24.137.221.230] has joined #lisp 20:33:43 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-61-68.toya.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:36:22 gleag: you're right, but Qt is not as heavy as you may think. Clojure is even heavier 20:36:41 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:37:16 Denommus: The current implementation of Clojure, yes. I hope it's not the only one that will ever exist - there's a huge potential for scaling both up and down. 20:37:25 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:37:30 in your opinion should you thank the interviewer at the end of the interview? 20:37:39 leo_33: yes 20:37:54 gleag: it's not a criticism of Clojure, just that Qt works well for what it is meant to do 20:37:57 if he says the pleasure is OURS stressinf ours is that a good sign? 20:38:03 You should thank X at the end of Y for many values of X and Y. 20:38:35 anyway, I had an idea for objects that can rollback. Persistent, immutable objects. Each mutation is actually a new object on the top of a previous one 20:38:50 leo_33: yes 20:39:18 Denommus: Isn't that the classical "functional objects" approach? 20:39:28 gleag: yes, except for the persistent part 20:39:45 Denommus: Clojure will be unsuitable for mobile devices until a native implementation is developed. It's just too much overhead, and the mobile JVMs are lousy for that. 20:39:54 the persistent is important because I don't want to fill my memory with lots of objects 20:40:24 Denommus: I thought that persistence is apart of the deal when dealing with objects functionally. 20:40:28 a part 20:41:02 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Quit: changing networks] 20:41:27 mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.84] has joined #lisp 20:41:41 uuh_ [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:41:45 gleag: no, you can persist functional objects, but you're not required to. I'm thinking about how to Rails generators would be made if Rails was made in Lisp 20:41:52 -!- uuh_ [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:42:06 literally outputting code when you type on a console wouldn't the ideal, at least for me 20:42:16 uuh_ [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:45:10 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:45:42 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:45:56 Denommus: If the objects are functional, they persist automatically, don't they? That's sort of the definition...? You simply don't mutate the old state and construct an old one using as much of the original structure as possible. 20:46:09 "construct a new one"... 20:46:40 -!- uuh_ [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:47:02 gleag: you are not required to persist automatically. Remember that persistence is a side-effect, too 20:47:50 A "side effect"? That would make any consing a "side effect". 20:48:14 -!- |3b| [bbb@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:5b65] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:48:32 gleag: uh... I'm talking about dependency by storing it on disk 20:49:16 What does disk have to with persistence of immutable objects? 20:49:30 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 20:49:38 |3b| [foobar@li370-173.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:49:48 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 20:50:28 forget it, I'm just thinking out loud 20:50:37 Denommus: You said "Persistent, immutable objects. Each mutation is actually a new object on the top of a previous one" 20:50:40 Rails doesn't version things 20:50:49 Denommus: That sort of implied http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_data_structure to me. 20:50:54 nightshade427: it does version migrations 20:51:00 That is for schema 20:51:07 Of a DB 20:51:11 ehu_ [~ehu@62.140.137.37] has joined #lisp 20:51:20 Not code or instances of records 20:51:33 nightshade427: yup, which can be generated through "rails g foo bar baz:integer" 20:51:43 The schema is, yes 20:52:11 nightshade427: I'm thinking how that would be made in Lisp. Having a outside script doesn't seem very "lispy". The rails generator should be replaced by some complex macro 20:52:31 What would the macro do? 20:52:47 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:52:59 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 20:53:23 All rails g does is create a rb file with up method and apply those in order when you call rake DB:migrate 20:53:27 generate code for the schema, and maintain versions for previous schemas definitions, so the developer could rollback them 20:53:34 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:53:47 Where would it keep them? 20:53:47 -!- queasy44 [~queasy44@185.25.87.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:53:55 Live in the image? 20:53:56 nightshade427: exactly. Why calling an external tool when I can generate code with macros? 20:53:59 jangle_ [~jimmy1984@50.241.129.73] has joined #lisp 20:54:31 Ohh ya, I'm all up for having a method inside image for generating the schema 20:54:46 But not sure where you would keep previous versions 20:54:52 nightshade427: no, I would need a good approach for that. That's why schemas would be immutable objects, that would be always stored in disk 20:55:08 So like rails does now ? 20:55:21 It stores the migrations inside /db/migrations 20:55:23 nightshade427: Previous versions of what exactly would you need? 20:55:25 yes, the difference is that you don't need an external tool 20:55:34 I see 20:55:49 you could even generate more schemas live in the image 20:55:55 Ya I generate those schemes when I change properties on my clos objects automatically 20:56:09 Like data mapper used to (in ruby world) 20:56:25 but then it would be too complex, and probably confusing for the users 20:56:36 Worke fine for data mapper 20:56:39 nightshade427: Have you looked at the AllegroCache thingy, BTW? I believe they're dealing with similar problems there. 20:56:39 :) 20:57:24 hm... 20:57:29 Whenever I add slot to clos it can add it to schema automatically 20:57:30 what if this was a DSL 20:58:33 I mean, instead of typing rails g AddToUser owner_id:integer, I could put at the and of my scheme file (add to user :fields (owner_id integer)) or something similar? 20:59:19 it would be basically as practical as Rails, I could find a way to rollback, and, again, no external tool needed 20:59:24 I think the migration libs I liked to earlier already do that 21:00:19 http://www.cliki.net/database 21:00:34 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.84] has quit [Quit: changing networks] 21:00:37 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 21:00:55 http://www.cliki.net/cl-migrations 21:01:00 For example 21:01:06 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 21:01:47 hm, cool, I'll check that 21:02:18 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:29 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 21:02:38 But of course it's always fun to scratch your own itch, let me know how it turns out. I would be very interested. 21:04:14 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:04:43 nightshade427: right, thanks for the heads up 21:05:48 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:06:36 Ayey_ [~rune1@2-106-141-211-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:02 Seriously I would be really interest. I do web dev mostly and don't currently do migrations because they are more of a pain the helpful 21:07:14 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:09:01 For example, if you add a field and remove it, the migration will add and remove it. Instead of doing nothing as it should. 21:09:10 So we don't use them at all for rails 21:09:18 Or generators at all either 21:09:26 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 21:09:30 More of a pain then a help 21:10:26 neoncort` [~neoncorte@177.39.189.243] has joined #lisp 21:10:33 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:53 hm, so the macro would need to check what is being done and apply it to an abstract structure BEFORE translating the abstract structure into a query 21:11:22 svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:26 -!- neoncort` [~neoncorte@177.39.189.243] has quit [Changing host] 21:12:26 neoncort` [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 21:12:26 That would be AWESOME 21:12:28 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:12:33 -!- neoncort` is now known as neoncortex 21:12:38 And blow everything else away 21:12:42 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-164-214.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:12:52 I would for sure try it 21:12:54 :) 21:15:33 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:16:00 nightshade427: "the migration will add and remove it. Instead of doing nothing as it should." <- if the DB backed were Firebird, that's exactly what would have happened. ;-) 21:16:07 backend... 21:16:22 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 21:17:41 If you do them at same time right? Otherwise if you tell the db to add a field it has to add it right? Unless it's schema less. In which case you don't need migrations anyways (I he's mostly schemaless DBS) 21:17:59 He's = use 21:18:11 Wow, that was a bad autocorrect :( 21:19:45 Firebird does all schema updates lazily. Until you touch the individual rows, they don't get converted. 21:20:00 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:20:10 Holy smokes?!! 21:20:12 Sweet 21:20:14 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:20:15 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:20:27 Gonna have to check that out 21:20:32 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-164-214.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:20:45 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 21:20:47 They had transactional metadata since 1980's. Pity that development slowed down in the last decade. 21:20:56 Wonder if sorta like elasticsearch's automappings 21:21:15 -!- ehu_ [~ehu@62.140.137.37] has quit [Quit: Bye] 21:21:29 gleag: Gonna look this up, thanks :) 21:21:50 Hah, there's finally a first alpha of Firebird 3.0, it seems. About six years late or so. :) 21:21:56 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@adsl-99-108-109-64.dsl.aus2tx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:28 nightshade427: The release notes for the alpha are interesting: http://web.firebirdsql.org/download/prerelease/rlsnotes/Firebird-3.0.0_Alpha1-ReleaseNotes.pdf 21:24:33 I sort of can't avoid the feeling that there's a certain convergence of architectures between OO databases like AllegroCache and the Firebird model of managing metadata. I've always found it intriguing. 21:24:50 weird 21:24:59 I'm don't seem to be able to load commonqt in sbcl 21:25:03 but I can in ECL 21:25:26 -!- par [~owls@unaffiliated/lordlicorice] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:25:42 par [~owls@unaffiliated/lordlicorice] has joined #lisp 21:27:06 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 21:27:09 Symbol "MEM-APTR" not found in the CFFI package. 21:28:59 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:29:41 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host143.190-136-199.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:30:33 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:30:39 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.180.110.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:31:01 Hey guys, i've just compiled my C code into shared object, loaded it via CFFI into running lisp process, messed with it a bit, decided to change C code a bit, recompiled it, reloaded into same lisp process and got my changes from C code. 21:31:11 Really cool ^. 21:31:26 Hotswap you know. 21:32:57 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 21:34:51 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:35:10 persizzl [~persizzl@unaffiliated/persizzl] has joined #lisp 21:37:33 -!- Ayey_ [~rune1@2-106-141-211-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:37:50 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:50 I'm also able to load commonqt in clisp 21:38:59 the problem only seem to affect SBCL, then 21:40:11 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:20 jtsceioa [~jan@cpc2-lutn11-2-0-cust319.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:10 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:41:41 smazga [~Adium@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:41 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:41:55 it seems a problem with... cffi 21:42:07 -!- Freeway- [~Freeway-@546ABDEC.cm-12-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [] 21:43:42 -!- smazga [~Adium@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:45:23 SBCL's cffi doesn't have mem-aptr. Why? 21:45:40 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:45:44 Freeway- [~Freeway-@546ABDEC.cm-12-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 21:46:15 -!- jtsceioa [~jan@cpc2-lutn11-2-0-cust319.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:47:10 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@201.165.170.161] has joined #lisp 21:47:12 what is the benefic of learning lisp 21:47:31 you might like it 21:47:43 yes of course but what can i do with it 21:47:48 nightfly: That might turn it into a problem. 21:47:49 is there network programming in lisp 21:47:59 anyone besides me has the problem of the function cffi:mem-aptr not existing, even after cffi is loaded? 21:48:29 Freeway-: lisp is homoiconic. That means you can manipulate your code as you can manipulate data. So Lisp is the king of metaprogramming 21:48:44 Denommus: that means you have an old cffi 21:48:46 update it 21:49:05 Denommus i dont understand that bro :P 21:49:13 -!- fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:49:22 Freeway-: homoiconicity means that your code can be manipulated as data 21:49:30 i dont understand that 21:49:38 -!- persizzl [~persizzl@unaffiliated/persizzl] has quit [Quit: persizzl] 21:49:39 maby sombody here in dutch can explaine me what this dude mean 21:49:57 fe[nl]ix: uh, ql:update-client and ql:update-all-dists don't update anything 21:50:00 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@adsl-99-108-109-64.dsl.aus2tx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:50:23 unsegregatedness [~unsegrega@185.25.87.222] has joined #lisp 21:50:33 Freeway-: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoiconicity 21:50:34 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:50:56 send me a virus link dude 21:51:09 let me check the source code of the link dude 21:51:12 -!- arnsa [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [] 21:51:34 Freeway-: ... it is an wikipedia page 21:51:45 joking dude 21:51:47 :p 21:51:50 come on dude 21:52:01 fe[nl]ix: I have cffi 0.11 21:52:07 0.11.2 21:52:27 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:52:35 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:54 Denommus: Reported by (asdf:component-version (asdf:find-system :cffi))? 21:52:56 lisp is it easy programming langua to learn 21:53:08 JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:53:25 0.10.7.1 21:53:28 Ah. 21:53:29 ;^) 21:53:45 Denommus: You might have it installed in your system. 21:54:42 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p5499C01E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:54:58 and how should I remove it? 21:55:09 Denommus: Are you using Debian? 21:55:15 no 21:55:23 Do I don't know. :^( 21:55:28 s/Do/So 21:55:49 pacman -Qs cffi doesn't show me anything 21:56:07 -!- Pullphinger [~Pullphing@12.40.23.68] has quit [] 21:56:53 maby this is a stupid ask but 21:57:00 do sombody know where i can get the CS^ 21:57:03 CS^6 21:57:06 CS6 21:57:46 Freeway-: what is a CS6? Is it a lisp library? 21:58:28 no 21:58:33 adobe 21:58:38 master collection 21:58:39 in a sho 21:58:41 *shop 21:58:48 come on dude in a shop 21:58:54 i'm pretty sure adobe sells it on their site 21:59:04 3333 i dont have that for software 21:59:11 oh, found it 21:59:13 then you don't need CS6 21:59:16 i dont buy software bro never 21:59:17 Freeway-: then you probably didn't need Master Collectio 21:59:24 it is not for me bro 21:59:27 .sbcl/site/cffi_0.10.7.1 21:59:32 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o p_l 21:59:37 and how is this even slightly on-topic 22:00:08 Freeway-: Your in a developer channel where people get paid to make software (just a heads up) 22:00:23 nice nice dude 22:00:36 i am beginner in making software 22:00:42 i am playing here with C# 22:00:49 learning the if statment 22:01:20 but a friend of me he needed this cs6 show that is why i ask some of yu guys 22:01:32 Was just saying, if you make an awesome piece of software in c# you want to sell so you can eat! and people just steal it, you will feel,different :) 22:01:43 Hello, I want to sort a hash-table by value string, I have this code http://paste.lisp.org/display/139154, for sort an alist, I mean, I not know to sort a hash-table 22:01:46 and that's a pretty bad place to ask about it, especially with that kind of attitude 22:01:47 i code not for me many 22:01:51 i code for the art bro 22:02:00 for the money* 22:02:05 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:02:07 But people here do code for living (thus the heads up) 22:02:25 you i know this also nice bro 22:02:46 -!- unsegregatedness [~unsegrega@185.25.87.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:03:02 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:03:05 -!- Lefeni [~Lefeni@c-0941e555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:03:12 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.101] has joined #lisp 22:03:21 why is lisp good to learn 22:03:26 why bill gates dident learn it 22:03:48 Freeway-: Bill Gates isn't a reference programmer, you know? 22:03:59 he is best programme rin the world dude 22:04:00 -!- echo-are` [~user@123.120.237.147] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:04:02 one of the best 22:04:25 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-14-77.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:04:37 Lefeni [~Lefeni@c-0941e555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:04:47 Freeway-: since when? 22:04:57 since he made microsoft dude 22:05:10 Bill gates bought dos that started his business and he then had money and hired developers 22:05:10 Freeway-: Microsoft is a company, not a software. What software have he created? 22:05:20 William Henry "Bill" Gates III (born October 28, 1955)[2] is an American business magnate, investor, programmer 22:05:20 crannog45 [~crannog45@185.25.87.222] has joined #lisp 22:05:36 Freeway-: I insist in my question 22:05:56 oh, great, I erased cffi and now I broke sbcl 22:06:01 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@130-204-14-33.2075264485.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:11 bill gates 22:06:17 is a programmer dude 22:06:19 don't bother engaging with this. 22:06:22 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:06:50 *nightshade427* not engaging 22:06:51 sireously bil gatess is a master class programmer bro 22:06:56 horusscope [~chatzilla@ip70-180-154-108.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:03 nobody can make windows like show smooth and sweat 22:07:30 sebity [~quassel@cpc2-lutn11-2-0-cust319.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:07:35 Gates haven't wrote much in a long time, and there is probably 0 lines of codes done by him in Windows NT unless in some really ancient legacy shit 22:07:53 anyway, this is not only off-topic, but skirts into abrasive 22:07:54 Freeway-: Bill Gates didn't wrote Windows. He hired people to write it 22:08:05 that is not true 22:08:08 believe me 22:08:14 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:08:18 that is a myth by people 22:08:27 bil gates is master class programmer 22:08:30 but he dont speak about it 22:09:01 so, to sort a list with string I use this http://paste.lisp.org/display/139155 22:09:02 Freeway-: so ask him what programming language you should learn and fuck off 22:09:12 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 22:09:25 sohail you are a arabic guy 22:09:40 -!- p_l has set mode +b *!*Freeway-@*.cm-12-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl 22:09:40 -!- Freeway- [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (Seriously, drop it. OT is fine and dandy sometimes, but not such abrasive OT) 22:09:40 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzZ] 22:09:42 Juanito-Jons: not good to use a destructive function like sort on constant data. 22:09:54 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:09:57 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o p_l 22:10:02 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 22:10:05 *dim* just did in an evening a task that would have been really hard in others programming language, so happy about CL ;-) 22:10:16 Bike:ok 22:10:26 good night people! 22:11:05 I don't like kicking out harshly for OT (I'd need to kickban myself) but this one seemed rather... abrasive 22:11:35 welp, I did it 22:11:40 no objection here. 22:11:40 -!- sebity [~quassel@cpc2-lutn11-2-0-cust319.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 22:11:45 he was flat out trolling imho (in the original sense of the word) 22:11:54 I wonder what was that .sbcl directory for 22:12:54 PuercoPop: I see no bridge 22:12:58 damn 22:13:21 Samsung just called me to schedule an interview, but the calling went bad, and now they don't answer my calls 22:14:11 a job interview? 22:14:19 yes 22:14:26 I'm unemployed 22:15:21 Denommus: aww man. Have you sent an email to them? 22:15:35 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:15:44 just did 22:16:15 Denommus: 22:16:33 Denommus: where you live? 22:16:40 still, it's good that it was an obviously dropped connection, instead of routers going haywire and connecting you to different person :> 22:16:42 nightshade427: Brazil 22:16:57 I see 22:18:38 MoALTz_ [~no@host86-158-220-83.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:18:44 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:09 -!- tylergoza [~tylergoza@72.29.34.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:21:15 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:22:06 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-158-220-83.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:22:16 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has joined #lisp 22:23:27 -!- dkordic [~danilo@5.138.139.79] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:25:23 Denommus: Good luck man :) 22:25:26 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:26:12 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 22:27:01 nightshade427: thanks 22:27:13 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:27:42 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:27:47 Denommus: Was going to see if I might be able to help find something, but Im in US. 22:28:03 ISF [~ivan@187.64.222.94] has joined #lisp 22:28:07 But, I wish you the best man. 22:30:22 Bike: Can I convert hash-table to alist (cons k v), next sort the alist and finally conver alist to hash-table 22:30:34 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:30:36 prxq__ [~mommer@x2f6b57e.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 22:31:41 -!- scampbell [~scampbell@mail.scampbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:00 Juanito-Jons: Do you want to sort a hash-table? 22:33:32 didi: yes I want, by value 22:33:44 didi: value as string 22:34:02 Juanito-Jons: But a hash-table is like a set. There is not sorting involved. 22:34:04 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@x2f6b20e.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:34:04 There's no point in sorting a hash table. 22:34:25 Juanito-Jons: do you mean you want to SHOW the contents of the hash-table sorted? 22:34:43 Denommus: yes 22:34:46 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:35:13 Juanito-Jons: loop as k being each hash-key of *hash-table* using (hash-value v) 22:35:28 There may be a better way, I am n00b :) 22:36:04 well, a dumb approach would be converting it to an alist and then sorting the alist by value 22:36:19 there are better aproaches, though, I'm sure you can think of one 22:36:25 -!- crannog45 [~crannog45@185.25.87.222] has quit [Quit: crannog45] 22:38:16 ok, thanks 22:39:20 maybe there is a insert-at-sorted-position function that I don't know of XD 22:40:24 block87 [~Block87@185.25.87.222] has joined #lisp 22:40:41 ok, let me think and thanks 22:43:08 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-14-77.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 22:44:42 Denommus: `merge'. 22:45:01 I don't know if it is faster than collecting and sorting though. 22:45:44 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:45:46 Juanito-Jons: Anyway, here is a solution with `merge'. 22:46:14 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@98.253.60.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:47:03 didi: ok, let me see 22:47:51 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9DC10.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:58 -!- Oejet [~Oejet@unaffiliated/oejet] has left #lisp 22:49:32 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has quit [Quit: Ragequit] 22:49:50 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:50:25 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:50:35 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-152-114.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:50:57 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-166-59.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:52:14 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:52 -!- leo_33 [~hejhekj@37.98.192.145] has left #lisp 22:53:45 didi: thanks , it works 22:53:56 \o/ 22:54:51 didi: only modify 'car by 'cdr 22:56:09 Hydan [~hydan@ip-89-103-110-5.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 22:58:30 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:58:37 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 23:00:37 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:01:19 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:01:35 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:10 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:04:48 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:07:06 drl [~lat@125.167.131.49] 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connection] 23:26:50 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-164-214.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 23:27:16 desophos [~desophos@n138h11.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 23:28:19 If you want your data to act like a set yet be sorted why not use binary search tree of some sort? http://www.cliki.net/cl-containers or http://www.cliki.net/data%20structure in general have some ready to go :) 23:28:41 Might be helpful? 23:29:46 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #lisp 23:30:22 -!- malkomalko [~malkomalk@66-234-38-99.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:35 ltbarcly [~textual@109.231.229.69] has joined #lisp 23:30:35 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:32:33 fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:34:38 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:36:29 pillton [~user@140.253.50.147] has joined #lisp 23:36:57 jangle [~jimmy1984@50.241.129.73] has 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[chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has joined #lisp 23:57:24 -!- BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has quit [Client Quit] 23:58:07 jayne [~jayne@freenode/staff/jayne] has joined #lisp 23:58:38 -!- agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:59:48 -!- karswell [~user@228.33.208.46.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:00:34 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:05:07 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:06:41 surrounder [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 00:08:08 axion [~axion@234.sub-70-197-196.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 00:10:42 -!- horusscope [~chatzilla@ip70-180-154-108.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:11:12 jleija [~jleija@50.15.142.21] has joined #lisp 00:12:01 i'm sorry this is a bit off-topic but i cannot find the answer in the docs: can anyone give me example code or insight using ANY lisp database library on how to define a many-to-many relationship? i've been at a stand-still for a couple days now after trying with postmodern, clsql, cl-perec, and elpehant. all other relationships are easy but this is driving me insane being new to DBA. 00:12:17 skalawag [~user@li206-225.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:09 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 00:13:16 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:20 Many to many tables require a join table, have you tried setting a one to many relation using a join / relation class? 00:13:47 Basically two, one to many relationships 00:14:10 fridim__ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317373.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:14:13 yes i know, but joining them with the above libraries is proving to be a difficult task. clsql docs say they will get to the how-to but never do, postmodern examples only show how to query..etc 00:15:00 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:15:04 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.59.10] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 00:15:18 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:23 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.59.10] has joined #lisp 00:15:38 Do any of libraries show how to a one to many relationship? 00:15:41 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:16:25 (I never used those libraries before so don't know) 00:17:53 search burp 00:18:08 ops, sorry, wrong terminal 00:18:57 yes, clsql does, but then mentions that a special keyword target-slot is needed for N-M relationships and it doesnt work right with a join table and 2 1-n relationships. 00:19:27 the join table is never populated with rows 00:20:02 BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has joined #lisp 00:20:15 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:22:33 :( 00:23:06 Bummer, ya I don't use those libraries, in general I used to just set join table and relationships that way. 00:24:11 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.131.49] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:24:31 surely someone has an example using any library. i must be missing something trivial 00:25:36 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 00:26:07 -!- mlamari_ [~quassel@72.183.103.226] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 00:26:27 mlamari [~quassel@72.183.103.226] has joined #lisp 00:30:33 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:31:42 http://lispmania.blogspot.com/2007/12/clsql-many-to-many-relationships.html 00:31:43 :) 00:31:48 From reading the :join-class sets the intermediate class to use 00:32:10 http://clsql.b9.com/manual/def-view-class.html 00:32:21 Those should help some. 00:32:38 i have tried that code ported to my model almost exactly, and the join table is never populated 00:32:46 zRecursive [~czsq888@171.212.252.85] has joined #lisp 00:32:56 From example above a <=> ab <=> b 00:33:40 No clue then, except make sure you didn't miss something. :( 00:34:46 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:34:49 thanks for the help. i'm going to go back to postmodern and try again. 00:39:28 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:40:09 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:40:35 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:08 -!- hwiersma [~hwiersma@S0106602ad08e475a.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:43:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-28-8.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:45:35 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:47:14 nightshade427: do you mind if i query you to discuss data modeling in general? 00:47:28 -!- svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:48:39 Sure I can try and help, PM me though since it's off topic :) 00:49:50 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:51:23 hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has joined #lisp 00:54:04 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:55:59 https://gist.github.com/6693599 is this too little memory allocated for the stack? 00:56:10 -!- harish [~harish@119.56.120.212] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:57:31 i'd guess a faulty macro function 00:57:42 ok will verify code. thanks 00:58:28 https://gist.github.com/6693633 is the code doing it. 00:59:44 -!- Guest72237 is now known as igorw 00:59:55 -!- igorw [~igorw@li559-253.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:59:56 igorw [~igorw@unaffiliated/igorw] has joined #lisp 01:00:44 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:01:29 prxq_ [~mommer@x2f6be40.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 01:01:57 karswell [~user@228.33.208.46.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:42 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:51 tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has joined #lisp 01:02:51 -!- tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has quit [Changing host] 01:02:51 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 01:04:14 -!- zenoli [~pk@109.201.154.169] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:04:46 -!- prxq__ [~mommer@x2f6b57e.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:04:50 is there an idiom for deleting an entry in an alist? something that removes from the list whatever ASSOC would return? 01:04:51 zenoli [~pk@109.201.154.169] has joined #lisp 01:05:08 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:07:07 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 01:08:03 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:08:22 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:08:29 -!- skalawag [~user@li206-225.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 01:10:47 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:11:26 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:12:45 -!- 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joined #lisp 01:26:05 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable194.190-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 01:26:57 sohail_ [~sohail@75-119-250-178.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:26:58 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-cvrnovvtfnmdhuyv] has joined #lisp 01:29:37 what is the second choice on osx after sbcl? 01:29:55 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:30:40 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:32:52 -!- effy [~quassel@123.118.174.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:34:48 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:37:57 effy [~quassel@123.118.174.72] has joined #lisp 01:38:37 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:59 cmucl it is 01:39:59 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 01:42:41 -!- effy [~quassel@123.118.174.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:45:35 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:48:06 -!- ebobby [~fms@38.99.41.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:50:19 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:56:58 jaimef: ccl 01:57:10 ebobby [~fms@38.99.41.36] has joined #lisp 01:58:52 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314165.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:59:23 *jaimef* notes google searches make sexml seem highly unused 02:01:22 zacharias_ [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 02:01:40 aw [~zacharias@unaffiliated/aw] has joined #lisp 02:04:08 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:04:18 -!- aw|incendiary_ [~zacharias@unaffiliated/aw] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:06:20 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:07:40 -!- fogus|gone [~fogus@70.182.191.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:08:15 -!- tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:889:6904:b3ee:137e] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:10:07 tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:889:6904:b3ee:137e] has joined #lisp 02:10:11 fogus|gone [~fogus@70.182.191.151] has joined #lisp 02:10:18 Bike_ [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 02:10:38 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:11:01 -!- recycle [~recycle@198-24-198-253.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:11:26 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 02:15:02 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-cvrnovvtfnmdhuyv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:17:07 -!- ebobby [~fms@38.99.41.36] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:17:27 hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has joined #lisp 02:18:37 k0001 [~k0001@host143.190-136-199.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 02:19:05 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:22:13 holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:15 effy [~quassel@123.118.174.72] has joined #lisp 02:25:59 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 02:28:53 https://gist.github.com/6694443 it appears sexml is busted. tested this test case on every CL I could get my hands on. 02:31:25 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@109.231.229.69] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:31:47 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-lydehocmziiwyfmp] has joined #lisp 02:37:34 desophos [~desophos@n138h11.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 02:37:57 -!- asedeno_ [~asedeno@66.102.14.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:38:44 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.47.111] has joined #lisp 02:38:44 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.47.111] has quit [Changing host] 02:38:44 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 02:38:54 asedeno [~asedeno@66.102.14.24] has joined #lisp 02:39:27 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 02:40:22 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:40:25 is definitely not busted here, and there is no problem that i can see with your initialization code 02:46:22 -!- tertl3-laptop [~tertl3-la@75.139.64.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:50:01 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:50:16 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 02:53:57 axion: what os/CL you using? 02:54:41 nuking quicklisp/rinse/repeat 02:55:51 -!- kwmiebach_ [~kwmiebach@xdsl-213-196-217-211.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:56:07 jaimef: i am using both sbcl and ccl with sexml. i have also tried clispin the past 02:56:09 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 02:56:57 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 02:56:57 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:57:17 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:39 axion: thanks for testing. 03:01:12 nuking quicklisp fixed it. 03:01:20 great 03:01:34 must not like the encrypted fuse directory 03:03:40 chenjf [3d90f811@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.144.248.17] has joined #lisp 03:04:18 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exit IRC] 03:05:36 spoke too soon 03:05:48 still broken? 03:06:10 one sec trying to repro cleanly 03:06:55 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:34 jaimef: i may know the problem. what error is produced? 03:09:44 -!- CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 03:10:10 https://gist.github.com/6694737 03:10:30 yes i know 03:10:33 sec 03:11:06 *zRecursive* why cannot i move windows in stumpwm floating group using mouse now ? 03:11:11 excellent, no more hair to pull out 03:11:42 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:11:55 -!- chenjf [3d90f811@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.144.248.17] has left #lisp 03:12:02 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:38 https://gist.github.com/6694756 03:12:45 is the non-slime version 03:12:49 fresh quicklisp as well 03:13:31 jaimef: recently a forked version of macroexpand-dammit was replaced with the original in quicklisp. you must either put the original in your local quicklisp directory, or replace the one in the quicklisp database 03:13:45 it fixed many bugs, but introduced this one 03:14:08 awygle [~Andrew@50-46-110-78.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:11 maybe Xach will finally see this and help :) 03:14:16 axion: thanks. 03:14:26 axion: you on gittip? 03:15:01 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has joined #lisp 03:15:01 no, never heard of it 03:16:07 thanks 03:16:21 no prob, happy hacking 03:17:25 so should just finish thinatra... 03:17:56 axion: thanks this was tripping me up on the lispweb book 03:18:51 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 03:25:21 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:25:25 axion: I see two branches, master and original-with-tests 03:27:06 https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/541 03:27:08 nice 03:33:47 fixed 03:36:43 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:37:05 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 03:38:03 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:40:13 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@70-88-243-246-ma-nh-me-ne.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:25 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.15.142.21] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:42:21 arquebus [~frath@c-107-3-164-239.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:36 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has 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seconds] 07:30:27 -!- eak [~unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:31:00 eak [~unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has joined #lisp 07:31:16 ltbarcly [~textual@109.231.229.69] has joined #lisp 07:33:02 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-25-115-125.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:33:59 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-3-49.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:33 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:39:24 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-1.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:40:21 -!- tesuji [~tesuji@unaffiliated/tesuji] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:41:53 ehu [~Erik@62.140.137.76] has joined #lisp 07:44:53 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-148-192.w109-222.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:45:01 Good morning. 07:45:29 uh, beach, good morning 07:45:43 Hey H4ns 07:46:35 [sorry for the long absence] 07:46:56 beach: congratulations! i imagine you had a productive period :) 07:47:13 Still do. Unless I hang out here too much, that is. 07:47:45 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@109.231.229.69] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:48:50 ltbarcly [~textual@109.231.229.69] has joined #lisp 07:49:07 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@109.231.229.69] has quit [Client Quit] 07:49:58 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@171.212.252.85] has left #lisp 07:51:42 arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-njdxamtawtupqslj] has joined #lisp 07:55:26 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:53 -!- pillton [~user@140.253.50.147] has left #lisp 08:02:16 pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has joined #lisp 08:03:59 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:05:39 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:08:54 Good morning beach! 08:09:01 Welcome back! 08:09:05 Hello pjb. Thanks! 08:09:19 You had use worried for a time 08:09:25 s/use/us/ 08:09:35 Really? Sorry about that. 08:10:02 pjb: What are you working on (Lisp stuff, that is)? 08:10:21 I'm starting working on gsharp, to implement a variation of the musical notation. 08:10:33 Oh, interesting! 08:11:05 pjb: Not to long ago, I conspired with tmoore to write a version of it for the Nexus tablet. 08:11:20 But we haven't made any progress yet. 08:11:24 Now we have ecl and MoCL to compile there :-) 08:11:42 Ah, that's good news. 08:11:52 Recently I've gained some professionnal experience with android. 08:11:53 tbmoore only knew about CCL. 08:12:05 But only java so far :-/ 08:12:05 pjb: ECL runs on ANdroid now? 08:12:22 pjb: Great! I might ask you some stuff when I start working on that then, if that's OK with you. 08:12:48 Sure. I'm not really a specialist, but I helped release three versions of an app already :-) 08:13:03 pjb: That's already way more than I know. 08:13:20 -!- harish_ [harish@nat/redhat/x-deqsiovpeqelediu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:13:31 My wife gave me a Nexus 10, but I only use it as a glorified PDF reader. 08:13:51 Well, they're that, PDF and youtube readers. 08:14:05 Right. 08:14:36 But they could indeed be used for more, for gesture based user interface to all computer systems. 08:14:57 Yes, it would be fun to experiment with gestures for score editing. 08:15:05 ... which is why tbmoore suggested it. 08:15:33 peterhil [~peterhil@gw4.tieturi.com] has joined #lisp 08:15:48 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:15:51 He also encouraged me to create an OpenGL backend for CLIMatis, but I haven't done anything about that either. 08:16:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:18:09 -!- axion [~axion@234.sub-70-197-196.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:18:17 pjb: When I get around to redesigning Gsharp, I will get rid of the concept of "segment". 08:19:16 Instead, I am thinking of introducing a higher-level separator (above bars) that will line up in the different voices. 08:19:36 [maybe this doesn't make sense to you. Sorry if so.] 08:20:36 Yes, it was a little abstract. Aren't the segment mapped to pages? 08:20:42 No. 08:20:51 They were meant to be like musical phrases. 08:20:59 But they turn out to be too hard to use. 08:21:32 maxter_ [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:44 I think every score written so far (that I am aware of) uses a single segment. 08:21:47 -!- desophos [~desophos@n163h85.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:21:55 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:25 I don't remember having seen a graphical representation for them. That may be the problem. 08:22:32 Exactly. 08:22:45 There is no such representation available at the moment. 08:23:40 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-237-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:51 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:25:27 -!- maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:25:41 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:45 The musical notation I have to implement uses horizontal space proportional to time. So I guess I will have basically to ignore a lot of gsharp engine (obseq, measure, beamingelasticity, drawing). 08:26:05 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:26:22 pjb: To get proportional spacing, you should be able to fiddle with a single parameter. 08:27:05 -!- ehu [~Erik@62.140.137.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:27:14 I use the formula from the Lime score editor which allows for a scale from constant to proportional spacing. 08:27:14 -!- macrobat [~beep@h-199-47.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: raegquit] 08:27:35 I forget the name of the parameter, but I think if you set it to 1 you get proportional spacing. 08:28:31 spacing-style, set ot 0 for constant spacing and 1 for proportional spacing. 08:30:07 ehu [~Erik@62.140.137.76] has joined #lisp 08:30:39 Ah, yes. 08:31:32 axion [~axion@28.sub-70-197-198.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 08:31:59 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:31 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-99-207.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:42:26 -!- Lefeni [~Lefeni@c-0941e555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:43:17 -!- maxter_ [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:44:10 cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-227-163.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:48:04 ggole [~ggole@220-253-129-91.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:48:46 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 08:49:21 jewel [~jewel@105-236-99-207.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:50:09 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host86-158-220-83.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: brb] 08:50:28 MoALTz [~no@host86-158-220-83.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:50:35 joneshf-laptop_ [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:45 pjb: I used to know what music genre uses proportional spacing, but now I can't remember. Jazz? 08:51:18 -!- kdas__ [kdas@nat/redhat/x-xizwqttdcnejbyxn] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:51:29 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:51:43 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:03 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:53:21 -!- wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:55:59 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:08 -!- hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:56:27 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:57:50 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 09:00:26 josemanuel [~josemanue@125.red-80-29-24.adsl.static.ccgg.telefonica.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:33 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:02:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.156] has joined #lisp 09:02:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.156] has quit [Changing host] 09:02:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:04:36 beach: yes, that's contemporary music there. 09:04:59 przl [~przlrkt@p5DDC4792.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:05:31 In this notation, we remove the stems, we only a unique bar for all notes, whose length shows the duration. 09:06:43 Hmm, yes, I see. 09:07:39 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-61-68.toya.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:09:16 killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-61-68.toya.net.pl] has joined #lisp 09:09:54 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has joined #lisp 09:10:30 There are some other specifications: the displayed/printed length of the measures may be set for the whole partition, or may be adjusted per measure (while keeping the same duration). There are a few other manual adjustements that can be made. For this reason I'm afraid I won't be able to use much of gsharp layout engine. Only the low level drawing parts. 09:12:25 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-26-143-223.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:12:44 Sounds right. 09:13:25 ok. 09:13:51 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 09:14:22 Guest14143 [~this@41.89.164.16] has joined #lisp 09:18:46 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-213-196-210-150.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:19:35 -!- axion [~axion@28.sub-70-197-198.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:27:57 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:28:00 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:46 -!- Guest14143 [~this@41.89.164.16] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:33:22 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:25 axion [~axion@28.sub-70-197-198.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 09:38:00 agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:40 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DDC4792.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:38:57 recycle [~recycle@2602:304:b2eb:e570:f425:4eee:fcae:b9b7] has joined #lisp 09:42:16 I don't know if #lisp participants have seen this: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/clos-mop.html 09:42:29 It is very incomplete, and a lot of work to put together. 09:42:37 So if anyone feels like contributing, let me know. 09:50:52 -!- seangrov` [~user@78-3-78-115.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:52:43 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:55:14 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 09:56:32 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:41 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 09:56:57 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 09:59:49 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 10:00:18 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124.169.153.157] has joined #lisp 10:01:01 ltbarcly 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[~leo@123.115.251.172] has joined #lisp 10:36:59 -!- agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:37:01 so are c-l.net mailing lists completely down, or is it only the archives that are, and the lists themselves still work? 10:39:34 trebor_dki [~user@153.96.244.202] has joined #lisp 10:40:50 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:41:13 <|3b|> lists should work 10:41:26 agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:12 seangrov` [~user@78-1-120-57.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 10:43:09 sz0 [~textual@92.44.62.223] has joined #lisp 10:45:08 -!- bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:45:21 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 10:45:50 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-237-55.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:46:11 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9EE83.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 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has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:35:13 kiuma [~kiuma@83-103-19-212.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:35:57 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@149.11.108.26] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 12:43:03 -!- sz0 [~textual@92.44.62.223] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 12:44:43 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:44:49 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:45:36 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-1.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:46:04 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 12:47:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:47:56 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 12:48:35 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 12:49:08 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-148-192.w109-222.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:49:08 Krystof: possibly, but they're not where they used to be, and not in any place linked from c-l.net that I could find 12:49:28 Good afternoon. 12:49:34 hiya beach 12:49:42 hey beach 12:51:52 -!- ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:52:15 przl [~przlrkt@p5DDC4792.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:53:01 beach: I was actually looking for you recently. How mature do you think CLIM3 is, and related, how much work would it be to port Climacs to it you think? I saw some Climacs/ in the CLIMatis repo, but it doesn't seem to be more than just sketches of whatever code you had in mind? 12:53:24 DREI isn't actually in the CLIM2 spec, is it? 12:53:44 mathrick: No, you are right, it isn't. 12:54:22 There is a lot of stuff missing still in CLIM3, like presentation types. 12:54:26 But, 12:54:50 Those might not be required in order to port Climacs, or at least a simple version of it. 12:55:11 hej beach :) 12:55:18 hello fe[nl]ix 12:55:21 sz0 [~textual@92.44.62.223] has joined #lisp 12:56:04 mathrick: I have been having similar thoughts lately because my Emacs 24 is very flaky on Ubuntu. 12:56:29 beach: I was looking into some Climacs hackery; very much "what if" right now, but if I time things right, I'd like to have some time for it come next year or so. And I'd like to get it to a state in which it can be an actual daily driver for whatever it does support, because I'm frankly tired of GNU Emacs being a huge hack 12:57:03 doing whatever is needed to make CLIM3 support terminal output in one way or another is also interesting for me 12:57:08 mathrick: That sound great. 12:57:31 I don't use terminal for emacs much, but I do see the value in structuring the code that it can support those who do 12:57:37 If you decide to do that, I will certainly try to help as much as possible. 12:57:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-28-8.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:58:04 beach: mhm, first order of business will be familiarising myself with CLIM2 enough to appreciate whatever CLIM3 does differently :) 12:58:06 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:07 mathrick: Do you mean running it in an Xterm or similar? 12:58:11 yeah 12:58:18 Yes, I agree with you. 12:58:20 -!- Shinmera [~linus@public-docking-pat-hg-mapped-0060.ethz.ch] has quit [Quit: ] 12:58:32 A text backend for CLIM3 would be fairly easy to write. 12:59:05 beach: GNU Emacs takes the worst possible route, IMHO, where GUI is just a hack on top pseudo-terminal output without actually giving any real portability, fallback or structure to what it does 12:59:12 I haven't given up on CLIM3 and CLIMatis; it is just that I got more excited about other things for a while. 12:59:19 oh, what are you working on? 12:59:37 I have been working on SICL for the past couple months. 12:59:43 ah 12:59:59 wow, beach. Haven't seen you in a looong time 13:00:10 p_l: Yeah, sorry about that. 13:00:19 mathrick: I think the low-level layer of CLIMatis is quite sound. 13:00:21 btw, regarding Emacs 24 - have you tried compiling with, let's say, Motif/Lucid? 13:00:28 ewwww 13:00:39 p_l: No, I haven't tried that. 13:00:49 mathrick: GTK3, and to lesser level GTK2, are broken in various ways 13:01:00 sohail [~sohail@75-119-250-178.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 13:01:04 -!- sohail [~sohail@75-119-250-178.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:01:04 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 13:01:05 so yes, They might look nicer, but most Emacs user never see the "nicer" parts :) 13:01:08 p_l: you mean GTK+, or Emacs-using-GTK? 13:01:15 mathrick: GTK itself, especially 3 13:01:25 yeah, 3 is not the best thing to have happened 13:01:32 but in general, there are known bugs when using server mode on Emacs and GTK 13:01:40 well, it was needed, but the way it happened is just awful 13:01:46 for example, it can't handle disconnection from X server 13:02:33 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:02:48 mathrick: in warsaw hackerspace, you can immediately tell when an application is using GTK3 if you run one of the "terminals" (netbooted laptops) we have there :) 13:03:13 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 13:03:37 because the application will look horribly dithered 13:03:47 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.115.251.172] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 13:04:43 ltbarcly [~textual@149.11.108.26] has joined #lisp 13:04:47 beach: things I know I want in Climacs and want them solid are: 1) multiple cursors (I've started using multiple-cursors.el and it's the best) 2) real parsers all over for language modes with plumbing for incremental parsing 3) buffers composed of parts of other buffers (I think the existing Climacs is already fairly good for that?) 4) real live tags which are connected to whatever definitions created them, callers, callees, etc., much like they worked in 13:04:47 Zmacs 13:04:53 cause GTK3 will try using OpenGL instead of X11... leading to dithering because the GL on them an only run 16bit 13:05:00 all things that are more or less impossible or incredibly ugly in GNU Emacs 13:05:36 mathrick: I was thinking of buffers composed of "collection of objects" (think presentations) 13:05:51 mathrick: Those objectives sound great to me. 13:05:57 -!- oleo [d4b81ecd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.184.30.205] has quit [] 13:06:14 Also, async/threaded operations 13:06:22 p_l: those are things I haven't thought about implementation-wise enough, though I have seen bits and pieces of working for them in Climacs's commit log :) 13:06:34 nothing like something blocking whole editor, especially when it's something like Emacs 13:06:36 mathrick, shouldn't it be a goal to actually make McCLIM not super buggy? 13:06:55 Quadrescence: I consider that an obvious supporting goal :) 13:06:58 [SLB]` [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 13:07:02 though CLIMatis is not really McCLIM 13:07:26 Quadrescence: It might be easier to start over. 13:07:30 and I think that if we have beach doing real serious work on CLIM3, it'd be a useful testing ground to make sure (a) Climacs can work on that 13:07:43 because it gets both Climacs and CLIM{3,atis} further 13:07:48 McCLIM is scary 13:07:49 Yes, I agree. 13:07:56 again, I agree :) 13:07:58 Yeah, makes sense. 13:08:25 Every time I contemplate working on McCLIM I get depressed after a short time. 13:08:44 oh, right, 2.5) is multiple major modes per buffers 13:08:55 which ties a lot into composable buffers and incremental, real parsers 13:09:24 mathrick: It might be worth thinking about writing a short spec for that. 13:09:42 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:09:42 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 13:09:49 beach: oh, and 5) would be structured graphics approach, so that you can specify different presentations for GUI and character backends, thus avoiding making both look and work terrible the way GNU Emacs does 13:09:56 beach: yes, very much so 13:10:00 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:10:29 -!- fogus|gone is now known as `fogus 13:10:39 mathrick: Hey, all this sounds very good. 13:11:03 beach: I haven't had the time to actually attempt running CLIMatis (too much time spent on opengenera :), how much of it works now, and what backends do you have in place now? Right now I think you're only doing your own thing on top of raw CLX? 13:11:20 beach, are you basically reinventing METAFONT here? https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLIMatis/blob/master/Fonts/Camfer/camfer.lisp 13:11:41 Quadrescence: I still think McCLIM is a very nice piece of software. It is not horribly buggy, given all the ambiguities of the spec. 13:11:59 Quadrescence: Yes, basically. 13:12:00 beach, Then maybe all of the applications I've seen written in it are buggy. 13:12:25 Click in a random, "wrong" spot and in some terminal you get dropped into the debugger. 13:12:44 Quadrescence: Except that Metafont can only produce bitmaps, but this approach can produce vector output as well. 13:13:28 beach: looking at that metafont-ish code, it contains a lot of specific things like j-curve and t-curve. How unicode-proof is it? 13:13:55 mathrick: Those are just instances of code factoring. 13:13:57 or !ascii-proof 13:14:10 There is nothing about encoding in it I think. 13:14:23 hmm 13:14:25 In fact as I recall, the characters are NAMED rather than numbered. 13:14:41 emacs-dwim [~user@rrcs-72-43-236-2.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:15:16 mathrick: It is just a copy of the font code I use for Gsharp. 13:15:18 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.197.158] has joined #lisp 13:15:20 beach: right, though if the drawing routines are all only capable of drawing ASCII shapes, it still puts us in a bad spot wrt non-ASCII glyphs 13:15:40 oh, I suppose Gsharp does draw some !ASCII glyphs :) 13:15:49 Right. 13:16:10 so Camfer is a font face? 13:16:15 or font engine? 13:16:24 Good question. 13:16:25 loke_erc [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:f891:34e5:6c1c:fe40] has joined #lisp 13:16:29 :) 13:16:33 heh 13:16:38 re 13:16:57 beach: so I guess my concerns weren't *entirely* unfounded then :) 13:17:16 mathrick: I suppose that's true. 13:17:16 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:17:30 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-1.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:17:40 *mathrick* makes a mental note to look into it when CLIM3 time comes 13:17:47 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 13:18:13 mathrick: It's been a while, but I think Camfer is the font, and the MF-like font engine is just in the mf.lisp file. 13:18:20 beach: I'm very sensitive to such issues, what with my thesis being on Mongolian text support, so I'll want to make sure it doesn't constrain us too much 13:18:21 ... which should be the same as the one in Gsharp. 13:18:40 mathrick: I can assure you there are no such restrictions. 13:18:55 that's good 13:19:23 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 13:19:48 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-24-36.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:20:12 beach: and the backends right now, going back to that, include raw CLX and raw CLX only, correct? 13:20:15 mathrick: And that sounds like an exciting thesis topic, by the way. 13:20:25 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:20:32 mathrick: For CLIM3/CLIMatis? 13:20:32 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 13:20:36 yep 13:20:46 mathrick: Yes, only CLX with a framebuffer. 13:20:52 oh, it was, though for reality-related reasons, it really was about finding a layout algorithm for mixed horizontal / vertical text 13:20:54 Very minimal use of CLX in fact. 13:21:01 teggi [~teggi@113.173.4.29] has joined #lisp 13:21:01 no actual mongolian was harmed in the making of my thesis 13:21:09 hehe. 13:22:02 beach: right, so I'll want to make sure we can support GTK+/Qt (in case GTK+ turns out to be too broken, but I don't like interfacing with Qt either), Win32 and terminal backends sensibly 13:22:08 I chose CLX frambuffer because I could not make sense of the RENDER extensions (neither from C nor from CLX). 13:22:17 and it seems like apps should be aware of their running on terminals at least 13:22:30 because they might want to provide presentations and layouts more optimised for that 13:22:33 LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:22:58 I agree with everything you say :). Except I don't understand the consequences of it right now. 13:23:04 Why doesn't this work (crashes sbcl 1.1.4): (#1=(lambda (x) (if (zerop x) 1 (#1# (1- x)))) 5) ; 5! = 120 13:23:47 Because source sexps (= forms) must not be circular. 13:24:15 well that's not the right formula for factorial; but that's irrelevant to my question. 13:24:21 You've lost sbcl compiler in an infinite recursion, and it ends with an uncontrolled (because unexpected) stack overflow and a crash. 13:24:23 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 13:24:29 beach: oh, another thing in the back of my mind is that I wanted to look into constructing modern (ie. more like Firefox than Symbolics Genera say) UIs within the metaphors and values of CLIM, ie. how to make a presentations-aware UI that doesn't suck, provides good keyboard navigability and looks not entirely foreign to a current generation muggle. Same with having a Listener 13:24:32 stupid SBCL, can't even compile a simple infinite program 13:24:47 that's really a research topic rigt there 13:24:49 *right 13:24:50 emacs-dwim: use the Y-combinator instead. 13:25:34 jdz: I bet it doesn't even handle the halting problem 13:25:53 mathrick: yeah, as if it was year 2013 or thereabouts 13:26:18 pjb: sure, but before i manually macroexpand let into a lambda, i wanted to understand why i'm doing it. 13:26:46 Y combinators are not related to let<->lambda equivalence 13:27:11 emacs-dwim: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_point_combinator 13:27:23 that's the proper way of writing recursive anonymous functions 13:27:39 mathrick: Again I agree with everything you say. And it is not just because the year says 2013 that "modern" interfaces are better in any way. They are just more visually appealing. But that has to be taken into account in order to attract people. 13:27:39 trying to compile circular source forms isn't 13:27:49 emacs-dwim, http://quickutil.org/list?q=fix 13:27:56 mathrick: aren't they equavanet? 13:28:32 mathrick: I have been doing some reading; essentially "About Face 3", by Cooper. 13:29:17 mathrick: I am trying to understand how to use what I learned to produce something that is both visually "modern" and productive. 13:29:29 beach: that, and as much as Genera was ahead of its time in many ways, their UI *sucks* when used today. They require mouse for everything and presentations have no navigability, the distinction between right- and left-button scrolling is insane, the Listener is scary for me and I specifically spent a few days to get OG running so it wasn't unexpected, etc. So they had better CS behind it, but not really better UI design 13:29:33 barryfm [~barry@fl-71-52-215-137.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:40 beach: hmm, I haven't read that one 13:29:42 got a link? 13:29:49 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 13:29:50 mathrick: Wait... 13:30:34 http://www.amazon.com/About-Face-Essentials-Interaction-Design/dp/0470084111 13:30:57 it's actually funny how Genera needs both more keyboard AND more mouse work than a properly designed 2013 UI 13:31:11 shows we haven't only regressed since then 13:31:12 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ggjxkqjdmusmantl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:31:15 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:32 music to my ears... 13:31:39 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@149.11.108.26] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:31:47 beach: UX design is my hobby, so I'm always happy to try to figure out better ways to do things 13:32:10 "UX"? [sorry] 13:32:15 User Experience 13:32:19 a wider term than UI 13:32:20 Ah, OK. 13:32:25 33 dollars for kindle edition!? 13:32:28 are you insane 13:32:33 Me? 13:32:36 no, amazon 13:32:38 :) 13:32:47 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-brxojjirayphgqjq] has joined #lisp 13:32:54 mathrick, Lisp could afford a stronger battallion of UX folks. :) 13:33:01 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 13:33:05 mathrick: I actually participated in a group on "usability" while I was in Kiwiland. It was very strange actually. 13:33:14 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:33:43 Quadrescence: we could, and we need to, because nobody else has the tech even to think about CLIM-style presentations. So understandably nobody else has quite figured out how to use them well 13:33:58 beach: oh yes, it's an odd feeling when you're just starting out 13:34:13 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124.169.153.157] has joined #lisp 13:34:20 suddenly everything you know is invalid and things which make sense to you have to be thrown out 13:34:52 but with enough experience you can integrate it with your intuitions again 13:35:05 mathrick: Sure, but sometimes you also get the feeling that these people have no clue about history and that they are trying their best to kill any kind of productivity. 13:35:15 oh, those kinds of "usability" designers 13:35:19 yeah, they're awful 13:35:23 Indeed. 13:35:36 that's another thing to look out for: "designers". Who do nothing but "design" 13:35:48 it's the best sign of "not actually doing anything" 13:35:55 mathrick: That's what I like about "About Face 3". 13:36:05 In the beginning, it looks like it is going to be horrible. 13:36:08 tesuji [~tesuji@unaffiliated/tesuji] has joined #lisp 13:36:10 But then it gets better. 13:36:35 pjb, mathrick: thanks 13:36:46 It is strange to read, because Cooper is basically right, but he knows very little technical stuff, so his analyses are sometimes laughable. 13:37:02 beach: a dated, but still useful book is Joel's User Interface Design For Programmers. It's not the best UI you can find, but it presents a lot of "why?" behind things 13:37:22 I might read that some day. 13:37:29 be prepared for a barrage of state-of-the-Win95-art if you do :) 13:37:46 Thanks for the warning. 13:39:11 beach: that's also why we need programmers with strong understanding of UI design. Because "programmers cannot do UI" is bollocks. Yes they can, as long as you explain why some UIs are better than others and why certain "dumbing down" motions are actually making the UI better for everyone, whilst others are truly dumbing down 13:39:26 There's been quite some research about user modeling so far, and that should be integrated IMO into a user interface to give good user experience. 13:39:42 As long as those programmers are given right user models. 13:39:52 GNOME3 is a sad example of turning attention to UI into a stupid, useless fetish in which "design" is put ahead of users and their work to be done 13:39:56 Otherwise they may only target themselves, of strangely idealized users. 13:40:16 oh yes, that's always a danger 13:40:30 And nowadays, this is complexified with contextual computing. 13:40:39 but a lot of basic UI mistakes you can find or just avoid committing on your own work if you just know the basics 13:40:54 that's also why HIGs are useful 13:41:04 You probably don't want to present the same interface for the same users in the metro as at his office desk. 13:41:20 because they lay out the common, useful cases in an obvious way for you to take a look at and model on 13:41:54 pjb: yep! Or on the terminal. Which is another area where a real presentations-aware UI toolkit could do thing nobody else can 13:42:01 *things 13:42:09 And finally, if we don't want to lag behind, we should design a system for the next generation of hardware. glasses, 3D displays, kinetics and eye tracking, etc. 13:42:15 mathrick: What does HIG stand for? 13:42:23 Human Interface Guidelines 13:42:27 thanks 13:42:32 you're welcome 13:43:04 awygle [~Andrew@50-46-110-78.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:14 Now, of course, this is kind of advanced stuff, we should read what labs like MIT Media, Microsoft, etc do, and integrate something. 13:43:19 horusscope: any serious platform needs one, so one day we will hopefully have CLIM3 mature enough and figured out enough that we can write a HIG for it 13:43:37 Now, who has a few millions to gather a team to work a couple of years on it/ 13:43:38 ? 13:43:40 pjb: one of the important skills in UI design is knowing when to stop :) 13:43:45 :-) 13:43:56 trying to make a UI that works both on a laptop and 3D glasses is a bad idea 13:44:01 pjb: Do you like the design of Windows 8? 13:44:02 making two that work well is a better one 13:44:11 Win8 is an example of not knowing that 13:44:15 pjb, I am actually curious if there are enough people available in the Lisp space to give up their job and whatever to do something like that. 13:44:39 horusscope: for what I've seen (just a few picts and videos when it got out), yes. But I've not tried it, so I don't know how it feels. 13:44:49 I see 13:44:51 it feels awful and miserable 13:44:58 win8 is a complete disaster 13:45:06 how so ? 13:45:14 they took all their mistakes of past tablet windows, and reversed their polarity 13:45:38 so instead of having a desktop windows shoehorned into the tablet form factor, you have a tablet UI shoehorned into PC 13:45:42 Quadrescence: I've been recently hired for something else, so I would not switch right away (unless the compensation was a good excuse). 13:45:43 with similarly awful results 13:45:46 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:18 Well, I would say it more depends on the user and his activities than on the form factor. 13:46:23 except that it actually still has the PC interface strewn about, so you can get both tablet-UI-on-PC AND PC-UI-on-tablet with the same OS on the same device 13:46:26 Hence context + user model. 13:46:28 it's awful through and through 13:46:51 And further, an activity that's started on one computer may be carried on over an other computer, and yet another. 13:46:52 pjb: I feel like windows was designing windows 8 at the same time they were pushing touch screen PCs, and it impacted the general character of the design a great deal 13:46:54 pjb: form factor dictates that. Not having a keyboard naturally constrains what you can do 13:47:01 so does using touchscreens but no mice 13:47:19 some things which are natural on a touchscreen suck with keyboard + mouse 13:47:23 Of course. Let's integrate this consideration into the context. 13:47:43 whereas some things which are easy with keyboard + mouse are downright impossible on a touchscreen (try hovering over things for instance) 13:48:01 bbl 13:48:05 OTOH, you can't multitouch with a mouse 13:48:45 horusscope: the very idea of a "touchscreen laptop" is broken, idiotic, and shows they haven't considered for a second the actual implications for real-world use 13:48:51 -!- loke_erc [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:f891:34e5:6c1c:fe40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:48:58 laptops and touchscreens are two fundamentally different modes of operation 13:49:01 you can't marry them 13:49:21 nobody wants or can touch their laptop's screen to do things 13:49:31 because it will cause RSI in record time 13:50:00 I'd prefer to have something like air typing via kinekt software, wherein if my arms are at a certain angle (elbows 90 degrees, etc) then I am typing 13:50:04 without the actual input device 13:50:08 win8 is what happens when politics drive your design 13:50:15 I don't like touch screens 13:50:34 maybe I'm biased because I type quickly 13:50:35 air typing? Hopefully not with your hands hovering in the air 13:50:59 mathrick: Yes I meant in the air, such as when using "Google glass" or derivatives 13:51:07 However, it could extend to being projected on a surface as well 13:51:14 eww, that's even worse 13:51:23 tactile surfaces are important 13:51:23 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:51:29 so is support for you hands 13:51:43 you cannot have your arms hovering in the air for more than 30s tops 13:51:49 ...what 13:51:55 try it 13:52:17 I happen to have a good estimation of my physical limit in this regard, and 30 seconds seems surprising 13:52:18 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:52:24 horusscope: touch screens are *great* when you're doing things they're great at. Like say touching the icon of the next video clip you want to see. They suck when you need to type in 20 pages for your essay 13:52:40 You're right, most of my usage of the computer is typing however 13:52:49 horusscope: sure, you can do it once if you try, but not for typing all day, every day 13:52:53 But it would be nice to be able to type on any surface without having to hit a particular spot, so that the positions of your fingers would determine the result. 13:53:12 beach: there are experimental android keyboards that sorta do that 13:53:19 their UI is completely invisible 13:53:26 beach: Exactly, I want increased portability. For a household PC the input device isn't as much a bother 13:55:02 Ayey_ [~rune1@2-106-141-211-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:23 horusscope: for occasional input it's fine, but don't think you can just replace your laptop with a square metre of air or desk with no impact on ergonomics or feasibility 13:55:44 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@gw4.tieturi.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:55:58 peterhil` [~peterhil@gw4.tieturi.com] has joined #lisp 13:56:09 mathrick: The position I'm describing anyway, would be something like pinching your elbows into your sides, I feel that most people can hold this position indefinitely 13:57:00 horusscope: with arms parallel to the ground? 13:57:16 ya, I've seen girls walk around with their arms like this, curling their wrists down 13:57:17 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 13:57:18 as a neutral position 13:57:21 I don't think it's strenuous 13:57:54 it'd be very straining if you tried to type like that as a rule 13:58:00 this is getting quite off-topic 13:58:05 it is 13:58:40 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:41 though it is still tangentially related to figuring out UI modes we can afford that nobody who isn't Lisp can :) 13:59:39 ltbarcly [~textual@149.11.108.26] has joined #lisp 14:01:00 tylergoza [~tylergoza@user-24-96-98-239.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:50 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@149.11.108.26] has quit [Client Quit] 14:02:57 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-184-128.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:03:41 -!- awygle [~Andrew@50-46-110-78.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:03:43 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:04:44 beach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qanXJYYfQoc <-- interesting part starts at 1:10 14:04:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:05:33 *beach* watches 14:07:40 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has joined #lisp 14:07:55 -!- shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-jrkonksfgahsdant] has quit [Quit: shridhar] 14:08:14 shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-aqukbyuyfjpmwyux] has joined #lisp 14:09:09 mathrick: Nice. I like it. 14:09:43 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:11:01 mathrick: Here is a thing to think about: I already gave up on sub-pixel anti-aliasing because resolutions are getting higher now. The question is, is it already time to give up on grid-fitting characters? If so, we should not be doing what I am doing in Camfer, and instead just use (say) Freefont without hinting. 14:13:05 beach: grid fitting and subpixels will still matter for a few years at least. *Phone* displays are getting higher in density. Laptop displays in the meantime actually lost in average pixel density, because there are 15.6" 1366x768 displays being commonly pushed out 14:13:28 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-brxojjirayphgqjq] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:13:43 My take is that grid fitting will matter for a while more on the desktop. 14:14:07 subpixel AA is really something that should be implemented at the drawing primitives level, so that everything can use it, and make extra sure grids and hints are employed for fonts 14:14:31 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:15:01 beach: btw, I take it you meant Freetype there (rather than Freefont, which IIRC is a particularly ugly family of typefaces)? 14:15:25 Ooops. 14:15:29 Yes. 14:15:39 Maybe so. 14:15:52 normanrichards [~normanric@75.92.34.101] has joined #lisp 14:15:55 No wait. 14:16:11 I meant Freefont, as a means of getting lots of characters quickly. 14:16:16 freetype is the TTF rendering library 14:16:20 oh 14:16:34 well, freefont is uncompromisingly ugly, especially unhinted 14:16:46 Yes, I agree, but it has many characters. 14:16:56 milosn_ [~milosn@user-5af50a8c.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:15 And I can't see myself doing all that work over again in an MF-like library. 14:17:25 beach: it's ugly to the point I had to add special per-user fontconfig rules to forbid it from participating in font fallback a few ubuntu versions back when it was shipped by default 14:17:45 there are several high quality, reasonably complete fonts 14:17:51 I think it has improved a bit in later versions. 14:17:52 DejaVu for example 14:17:56 Oh, OK. 14:18:13 I didn't mean to say I was set on a particular font. 14:18:27 I wonder if you could do a TTF-to-mf.lisp font groveller 14:18:29 I just meant that we need a way of getting lots of characters quickly, 14:18:31 normanri_ [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-252.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:50 and then take time to improve the important stuff. 14:19:02 mathrick: That part is not hard. 14:19:06 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5af50318.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:19:11 beach: I'd fully expect it to support TTF fonts and font fallback, so codepoints which aren't covered by preferred font are taken from others 14:19:27 ideally you could fallback from MF to TTF too 14:19:42 Right. 14:19:46 the_TORmentor [~the_TORme@unaffiliated/the-tormentor/x-3958522] has joined #lisp 14:19:55 beach: I know, I meant "groveller in a useful way so that you could then tweak the outlines meaningfully" 14:20:10 raw cubic splines are not that useful 14:20:21 Oh, that is much harder I think. 14:20:25 what is the best lisp 14:20:25 But maybe not too hard. 14:20:32 the_TORmentor: depends 14:20:47 what do you want to do and how much are you prepared to pay for it? 14:20:50 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@75.92.34.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:21:01 mathrick: i wont pay anything for it 14:21:14 then the first part of my question still stands 14:21:23 because there are multiple free implementations around 14:21:25 mathrick: So, what I think I am saying is that monitor resolution is probably good enough now that it might not be worth trying a more intelligent approach. 14:21:28 i want a general purpose language, mathrick 14:21:51 the_TORmentor: in that case SBCL is a well-supported implementation most people in this channel use at least some of the time and know 14:22:05 i dont like all the features common lisp has though :P 14:22:06 it's also fast, complete and actively developed 14:22:29 the_TORmentor: you mean "which lisp" as in Lisp dialect then? 14:22:35 mathrick: yes 14:22:52 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:57 *beach* is determined NOT to intervene. 14:23:16 CL is still the most real-world dialect, and this channel is in practice about Common Lisp, not really other Lisps 14:23:22 -!- seangrov` [~user@78-1-120-57.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:23:29 you might not like it, but personally I haven't found a dialect I like more 14:23:34 ymmv obviously 14:23:40 i like common lisp, mathrick 14:23:53 i just think it has too many special forms :P 14:23:57 then I don't understand your question and you need to work on your question asking forms 14:24:06 also :P does not make a nonsensical statement less nonsensical 14:24:14 -!- barryfm [~barry@fl-71-52-215-137.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 14:24:15 it just makes me less willing to put up with it 14:25:02 well cleary you're not willing to help so goodbye 14:25:05 -!- the_TORmentor [~the_TORme@unaffiliated/the-tormentor/x-3958522] has left #lisp 14:25:18 beach: eh, it will still matter on desktops/laptops, sadly. I don't think it'll be much less than a decade before you can assume all PC displays are high enough density not to need any hinting or AA 14:25:28 -!- sz0 [~textual@92.44.62.223] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 14:25:31 and even on high-density displays, hinting is still needed for small point sizes 14:26:11 beach: TTF hinting is really a cross between grid fitting and METAFONT-like font features, so you can get wider stems below certain point size, etc. 14:26:43 -!- milosn_ [~milosn@user-5af50a8c.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:26:48 mathrick: Yes, I know. But I can't see myself writing code in the TTF hinting language. 14:26:50 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@201.165.170.161] has joined #lisp 14:26:57 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-uhlnzpsnqlanwxbx] has joined #lisp 14:27:03 no, for TTF, we really should be riding on freetype 14:27:14 beach: and realistically HarfBuzz too 14:27:26 because I sure as hell am not writing indic and thai shapers 14:27:30 Using auto hinting? 14:27:34 yeah 14:27:37 it's matured hugely 14:27:44 pretty much all linuxes do that 14:27:47 OK, I shall have to look into that. 14:28:04 if you use a linux on desktop today, you're looking at autohinted TTF fonts 14:28:21 done by freetype and harfbuzz 14:28:25 OK. 14:28:35 Not great but perhaps acceptable. 14:28:38 yeah 14:28:52 beach: you cannot do it "properly" because hinting language is patented 14:28:57 as ridiculous as it sounds 14:29:02 Yes, I know :( 14:29:14 why do we still have patents at all? 14:29:15 Though, maybe the patent expired. 14:29:19 I recall reading that. 14:29:23 maybe 14:29:36 I think everyone just decided to improve the autohinter instead 14:29:45 Not that this fact makes me want to write code in it. 14:29:53 sz0 [~textual@92.44.62.223] has joined #lisp 14:29:56 exactly 14:30:05 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-uhlnzpsnqlanwxbx] has quit [Client Quit] 14:30:31 Well, if there were a freely-available hinted font, I could imagine writing an interpreter for the hinting language in Lisp. 14:30:39 beach: mf.lisp is not really something I expected to see in CLIM3 anyway. "Own typeface" was pretty far down on the list of things that I'd expect to see in a UI toolkit :) 14:30:50 milosn [~milosn@user-5af50aad.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:10 I'm not sure, but there is a partial hinting mode in Freetype I think? DejaVu might be making use of it 14:31:12 mathrick: For some things like Gsharp it is useful. 14:31:24 oh sure 14:31:26 -!- block87 [~Block87@185.25.87.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:31:43 is there a structure in CL that works similar to pairlist but allows for adding and removing arbitrary pairs 14:31:58 just not necessarily the battle I want to be fighting first when trying to figure out good ways to do UI in Lisp 14:32:14 mathrick: Yes, exactly my point. 14:32:18 Sorry if this sounds negative but finer typography seems like it should be the least of practical concerns for UIs in CL at the moment. 14:32:31 PuffTheMagic: I'm not sure what a "pairlist" is, it's not a term I've seen used before 14:32:47 PAIRLIS? 14:33:05 block87 [~Block87@185.25.87.222] has joined #lisp 14:33:07 oh, so alists 14:33:10 Quadrescence: Yes, especially since most people don't seem to give a damn. 14:33:13 yeah sorry pairlis 14:33:34 PuffTheMagic: but PAIRLIS is a function, not a structure. The structure it makes is alist 14:33:48 and you can most definitely remove elements from alists, since they're normal lists 14:34:20 thanks 14:34:36 beach: it's just that simply having a working UI library is not that easy 14:34:38 Quadrescence: Though for Gsharp it was very important, because glyphs are composed dynamically and the result can be very ugly if you don't get it right. 14:34:44 urandom__ [~user@p548A337E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:35:09 Quadrescence: I was looking at PDFs generated from LilyPond and they sometimes look unbelievably ugly. 14:35:24 beach: bbi 30 minutes or less, feel free to type words at me if relevant, I'll read them when I'm back 14:35:25 Quadrescence: .. and LilyPond is considered really beautiful. :) 14:35:31 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 14:35:37 mathrick: OK, see you later. 14:35:48 :) 14:35:51 fe[nl]ix: I know :( 14:36:52 jangle_ [~jimmy1984@50.241.129.73] has joined #lisp 14:41:17 Actually, I need to go as well. Nick L is coming over for dinner and I have to start preparations. 14:41:42 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-148-192.w109-222.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:42:04 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:43:18 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124.169.153.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:43:45 hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has joined #lisp 14:44:20 -!- ehu` [~Erik@62.140.137.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:44:25 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 14:44:25 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 14:46:10 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 14:47:00 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 14:47:18 arnas [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 14:48:48 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 14:50:11 -!- normanri_ [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-252.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:50:15 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-tkhxtesjipvfvjqv] has joined #lisp 14:50:30 -!- arnsa [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:51:51 benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:14 ltbarcly [~textual@109.231.229.69] has joined #lisp 14:56:56 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:57:16 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-243-208-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:57:29 oh well, beach is not here anymore but 14:57:44 macrobat [~beep@h-199-47.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 14:58:01 uuh [~qicruser@194.230.159.140] has joined #lisp 14:58:14 dynamic glyphs are a common "need to get it right" area for typesetting, maths and music software, but they're not a problem usually solved by UI toolkits, and for good reasons, because 99% software never needs to consider them 14:58:14 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:58:47 it should be possible to build a good solution /on top of/ CLIM3, but building it /into/ CLIM3(.0) is not necessarily the first order of business 14:59:07 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:29 if only because while Gsharp can say "this is my font, I will use it for my glyphs", CLIM cannot just say "we support a single font, hope you're happy with it" 14:59:42 -!- uuh [~qicruser@194.230.159.140] has quit [Client Quit] 14:59:53 if we ever arrive at a general solution, it can dribble down to CLIM3.2 or whatever, just like DREI did into McCLIM 15:00:35 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 15:01:12 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@83-103-19-212.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:01:42 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:01:52 and also a generic solution will need to work with the fonts out there which are mostly TTF with unicode codepoints for composable braces and it's a really hard problem not worth solving right now 15:03:48 wheelsucker [~user@168.114.240.151] has joined #lisp 15:04:18 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:05:33 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@109.231.229.69] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 15:08:18 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 15:08:18 segv- [~mb@95-91-243-208-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:09:54 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-24-36.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:12:26 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gw4.tieturi.com] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 15:15:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:17:24 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.173.4.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:20:24 -!- arnas [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [] 15:20:25 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#lisp 17:32:27 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 17:33:08 -!- zenoli [~pk@109.201.154.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:33:24 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 17:34:19 zenoli [~pk@109.201.154.169] has joined #lisp 17:34:54 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:35:43 -!- desophos [~desophos@n163h85.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:37:28 alexcharlton [~user@modemcable044.152-21-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:38:48 -!- alexcharlton [~user@modemcable044.152-21-96.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 17:39:44 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 17:40:04 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:40:18 -!- zenoli [~pk@109.201.154.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:40:50 zenoli [~pk@109.201.154.169] has joined #lisp 17:41:22 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-14-77.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:41:49 mathrick: I guess dynamic glyphs can be mapped to application specific unicode codepoints, and described in application specific (dynamic) fonts. 17:42:14 mathrick: therefore one only need good font support (with unicode mapping) from the toolkit, I'd say. 17:43:03 -!- dkordic [~danilo@5.138.142.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:44:51 anunnaki [~anunnaki@c-174-54-115-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:32 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:46:01 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:47:03 uuh_ [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:47:04 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:49:22 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 17:51:44 -!- zenoli [~pk@109.201.154.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:08 zenoli [~pk@109.201.154.169] has joined #lisp 17:53:14 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 17:54:11 Aramur [~arare@9.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:28 -!- xristos [x@ns3.suspicious.org] has quit [Quit: none] 17:57:34 -!- zenoli [~pk@109.201.154.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:58:19 zenoli [~pk@pool-96-245-7-130.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:38 -!- agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:58:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.66.205] has joined #lisp 17:58:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.66.205] has quit [Changing host] 17:58:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:58:53 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089D325.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:15 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.87.120] has joined #lisp 18:01:27 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:02:50 dkordic [~danilo@5.138.142.175] has joined #lisp 18:05:13 I was looking at the paper on Stalin the optimizing Scheme compiler - that is complicated stuff. I'm looking for a paper that describes how to do the simplest level of static analysis to identify when an entire activation frame can be allocated on the stack rather than the heap. 18:05:37 Look at the Orbit thesis. 18:05:41 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 18:05:49 -!- zenoli [~pk@pool-96-245-7-130.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:05:52 And possibly Steele's paper. 18:06:00 (The rabbit one.) 18:06:12 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 18:06:22 -!- uuh_ [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:07:08 Let me write those down. 18:07:54 zenoli [~pk@109.201.154.183] has joined #lisp 18:07:55 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:08:11 I'm blaming my slow compiled code on my implementation decision to store all activation frames on the heap. 18:08:12 Also, "entire activation frame" implies that you think everything has to be stored in the closure, whereas only free variables need be stored. 18:08:35 ehu [~ehu@62.140.137.76] has joined #lisp 18:09:01 There have been compilers that used that technique. 18:09:23 The New Jersey ml compiler does this and does fine. Stalin does massive amounts of static analysis to do among other things decide which variables go on the stack and which go on the heap. 18:10:02 -!- irq0 [~irq0@amy.irq0.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:10:06 Right but how do I decide what is free and what is not. That's what I'm missing. 18:10:59 If a variable is bound outside the function you are considering (and is not global), it is free. 18:11:02 seangrov` [~user@78-1-120-57.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 18:11:21 you should look for "escape analysis" 18:11:23 (Global variables are technically free variables, but you can ignore them for the purposes of compiling closures.) 18:12:15 Right - I've got global/special variables handled. It's how do I decide on local variables. 18:12:28 It's really quite simple 18:12:41 though this isn't an obvious first bottleneck. just to be clear, when you mean you're storing all activation frames on the heap, do you really mean all? 18:12:49 Really - how? 18:12:50 including functions that trivially close over nothing? 18:12:55 Just keep a note of how many functions deep a binding is created at, and how deep you currently are 18:13:12 Jsnell - all 18:13:27 (There's a great paper by Cardelli that gives a particularly easy way to do it - Compiling a functional language, I think its called.) 18:14:14 -!- cantstanya [~what@2001:5c0:1000:a::13f] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:14:29 gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:14:35 I'll writ that down 18:14:49 As for heap allocation: you can stack allocate closures that only escape downward, and you can allocate in registers closures that don't escape at all. 18:14:49 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@201.165.170.161] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:14:55 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host143.190-136-199.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:15:06 And closed functions are no problem at all, as jsnell suggests. 18:15:23 The Orbit paper goes into all of this. 18:15:25 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@201.165.170.161] has joined #lisp 18:15:39 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:16:22 duggiefr_ [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 18:16:48 k0001 [~k0001@host128.190-138-110.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:17:00 Ok I'll look those up. 18:17:45 Also, don't get misled by Stalin's example into thinking that data flow analysis is necessarily some crazy thing 18:17:50 marsam [nyan@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:feae:4421] has joined #lisp 18:18:19 Conservative analyses can be very simple and fast. 18:18:19 My problem has been that I have all these papers on the funargs problem that offer no solutions. Then I have these papers by Appel that argue for doing everything on the heap. 18:18:32 -!- nbouscal [nbouscal@gateway/shell/ircrelay.com/x-ktykmuidzlpixhxz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:18:41 Only today did I start finding papers on lightweight closures. 18:18:53 pjb: dynamic glyphs take more than just that, because they might need to be constructed from parts, such as multiline braces or integrals 18:19:03 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:19:07 or tone keys in music 18:19:14 It's like everybody thinks what I need is trivial and I'm missing the point. 18:19:26 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:19:35 You should view Appel's work as a argument that the technique is viable rather than a mandate to do things that way. 18:19:40 -!- abend [~quassel@75-148-54-129-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:19:43 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.109] has joined #lisp 18:19:49 nbouscal [nbouscal@gateway/shell/ircrelay.com/x-lfrlrcyawzjeiltd] has joined #lisp 18:19:50 (And all such work, really.) 18:20:00 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:20:01 ggole: Inlining converts the former (stack-allocated closures) into the latter (register-allocated ones), though. 18:20:14 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:20:20 You don't need inlining for the optimisation I mentioned. 18:20:25 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 18:20:26 abend [~quassel@75-148-54-129-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:29 pavelpenev [~quassel@130-204-14-33.2075264485.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:39 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:20:54 drmeister: Which papers in particular have you started finding today? :-) 18:21:05 Conservative static analysis. That sounds right. Like conservative gc. Assume locals go on the heap unless it's absolutely clear they don't need to. 18:21:19 ggole: Actually, you probably do if you're really serious about it. 18:21:36 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:21:47 The Stalin paper. The others are in my office I'll get them to you in a few min. 18:21:54 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 18:22:11 drmeister: You mean Flow-Directed Lightweight Closure Conversion? 18:22:27 irq0 [~irq0@amy.irq0.org] has joined #lisp 18:22:29 gleag: what? 18:22:43 Inlining is all very well, but what has that got to do with closure allocation? 18:23:12 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Client Quit] 18:23:22 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 18:23:58 ggole: most of the time you don't really use closures without downward escape 18:24:11 not many interesting things are done purely locally 18:24:15 l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 18:24:29 Nested helpers that access locals are not uncommon. 18:24:41 ggole: Now I'm confused - what did you mean by the distinction between "escape downwards" and "not escape at all" if you think that inlining isn't important for this? 18:24:45 But yes, usually there is either downward or upwards escaping. 18:24:55 -!- l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 18:24:59 ggole: yeah, but those are not really closures in the same sense 18:25:12 mathrick: in mapcar I do so all the time 18:25:19 you can plausibly treat them as a completely separate construct unless they do escape 18:25:26 mathrick: to be honest, on the machine level, there are no closure in any sense. 18:25:39 ehu: mapcar is a function. Any closure you pass to it escapes downwards 18:25:44 mathrick: yes they are. They are first class functions and in the general case have to be compiled as closures. 18:25:56 -!- Buckethead [~jason@cpe-75-185-175-103.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:25:59 gleag: obviously 18:26:07 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:26:13 gleag: I'm not discussing inlining at all, I'm discussing where the storage for the closure environment is allocated 18:26:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:26:37 If the function does not escape then that storage can be registers. 18:26:41 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:26:52 ggole: Me too. That's rot of a part of it, isn't it? You've just confirmed what I said. 18:26:57 ggole: it's a useful optimisation to see them as a separate thing unless and until they escape, because a lot of the time you use FLET for clarity and factoring purposes, not to construct closures 18:27:12 l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 18:27:19 gleag: perhaps I've misunderstood you then. 18:27:23 -!- l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 18:27:30 That happens. 18:27:43 mathrick: uh, I'm referring to the implementation technique, not so much the idea of lexically scoped fist class functions. 18:28:54 ggole: I'm aware of that. And it's useful from the implementation standpoint to treat FLETs as not-closures unless proven otherwise, because it's a simple form of optimisation than full-blown inlining support 18:28:57 mathrick: I vaguely recall that Siskind intended to publish other papers but that the effort somewhat fizzled out eventually. 18:29:46 Could someone paste me the discussion from the point where I last spoke? I just got back to my office and I'd love to look over the discussion carefully. 18:30:11 I'm confused. I've never implemented Common Lisp, but as far as I can tell you have to treat flet- or label-bound functions exactly as you would treat lambda or anything else. 18:30:27 you *can* 18:30:31 I mean, why would you compile lambda more poorly than an flet-bound function? 18:30:34 that's just like allocating everyting on the heap 18:30:37 it's not incorrect 18:30:59 because FLET is a special form which is more restricted than LAMBDA 18:31:38 ggole: obviously it assumes you have escape analysis in place for that, because otherwise you'll generate incorrect code when they do escape, but in lieu of real inlining analysis, you can treat FLETs as not-closures unless they escape, which makes them merely syntactic convenience in that case 18:31:40 -!- CrazyEddy [~counterre@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:32:05 lemme give you an example of when you'd do that 18:33:56 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-24-36.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:34:43 mathrick: ok, but you can do exactly the same thing for any other function. 18:34:57 The papers that I found include: Goldberg and Park, "Higher Order Escape Analysis: Optimizing Stack Allocation in Functional Program Implementations". 18:35:16 ggole: http://paste.lisp.org/display/139166 18:35:18 l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 18:35:33 mathrick: how is flet more restricted? In some code base, they use for some reason the pattern (flet ((name args . body)) (function name)) instead of (lambda arg . body). 18:35:42 Hannan and Hicks "A Lifetime Analysis for Higher-Order Languages". 18:35:59 pjb: humm? Not sure what that means 18:36:11 it's equivalent. 18:36:39 pjb: well yes, but then it escapes 18:36:58 Jagannathan, Theimann, Weeks, Wright: "Single and Loving it: Must-alias anlysis for higher-order languages". The papers get progressively longer the more recent they are. 18:37:01 But if you have a lambda that doesn't escape, it's equivalent to a flet that doesn't escape. 18:37:03 pjb: see my paste for an example of FLET as a code factoring device, not "I want to make a closure" device 18:37:06 What's generally used for linear algebra in CL? 18:37:09 mathrick: that's a nice clear example of a non-escaping nested function, but it doesn't make an argument that flet should be treated specially. 18:37:18 -!- svs_ [~svs@174-28-41-167.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:37:20 There's no difference between the function defined by flet and the one defined by lambda, apart from the lexical naming. 18:37:30 pjb: the difference is that in CL, the namespaces are separate, so you're much less likely to be making lambdas that don't escape 18:37:50 what you say is not incorrect; it's just not as useful or natural in CL 18:38:02 mathrick: yes, you could use ((lambda () (push :success results))) instead of (success). 18:38:03 Perhaps what you are getting at is that flet is usually the construct that leads to non-escaping nested functions in practice? 18:38:32 ie. nobody says (let ((some-helper (lambda () ...))) (funcall some-helper ...)) 18:38:49 mathrick: agreed. But from the compiler point of view, it could very well transform one into the other before doing further optimizations and code generation. 18:38:58 svs_ [~svs@174-28-41-167.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:02 pjb: yeah, it could, that's a good point 18:39:26 The only case where a difference could be made is if you call (success) several times, but again, the compiler could detect identical lambdas and resolve them to the same function. 18:39:31 drmeiste_: Where did you get "Higher order escape analysis" from? 18:39:33 ggole: that's exactly what I'm saying, yes 18:40:12 pjb: if they're stored in the same variable, then they're identical. If they're not, why are you doing that? :) 18:40:37 s/identical/the same/ 18:41:13 Different lambdas are eq-distinguishable iirc, so (escaping) identical lambdas may not be able to be merged. 18:41:22 gleag: Good question - that one is from: Lecture Notes in Computer Science Volume 432, 1990, pp 152-160 but I find a lot of these on peoples web sites with no dates or indications that they were ever published or peer reviewed anywhere - what's up with these people? 18:41:31 ggole: yeah, they have to be 18:41:35 mathrick: Is "identical" identical to "the same", or is it the same as "the same"? 18:41:47 because in principle they don't need to share the environment and it might not be trivial to ensure they do 18:42:05 gleag: I meant to write the same when I wrote identical 18:42:09 drmeiste_: Is there a downloadable copy? That was what I had in mind. 18:42:27 because I don't mean "of the same shape", but "the same object" 18:42:40 mathrick: sorry? They have to be merged? 18:43:01 mathrick: My point was that "identical" and "the same" have identical/the same meaning. (At least where I live.) 18:43:14 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.87.120] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:43:18 gleag: It's probably behind a pay-wall: http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F3-540-52592-0_61 I can't legally send a copy you understand. 18:43:32 ggole: no, I'm just saying that if you construct an identical (ie. what CLHS would call "similar") lambda multiple times, it's your own fault and you shouldn't be expecting the compiler to notice that and merge them 18:43:32 -!- l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 18:43:44 if you want to reuse a lambda, store it in a variable 18:43:49 drmeiste_: A copy I wouldn't understand would be of no s 18:43:51 Oh, I see. That's reasonable. 18:43:59 of no use to me anyway :) 18:44:03 gleag: oh, no, I don't think they do 18:44:11 *mathrick* checks 18:44:55 gleag: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/identical <-- #1 18:45:20 "foo and bar are identical objects" is saying something different than "foo and bar are the same objects" 18:45:41 the former are EQ-distinguishable, the latter aren't 18:45:42 -!- zenoli [~pk@109.201.154.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:46:16 mathrick: Actually, I really think that these are the same sentences. 18:46:18 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:46:48 mathrick: And not just because CLHS says "identical: adj. the same under eq. " 18:47:09 zenoli [~pk@109.201.154.148] has joined #lisp 18:47:52 I think the major confusion here is the application of the word "identical" to material versus immaterial objects. 18:48:16 I've got the Orbit thesis - looks good - thanks. 18:48:20 oh, well, I didn't remember CLHS having defined it that way. If it does, then it sorta changes the discussion. But in English, "identical" is usually about the shape of objects, not their identity, I believe 18:48:58 although #2 meaning is selfsame, so it's not unambiguous 18:50:16 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 18:51:05 mathrick: Well, "the shape of objects" in computer science is usually reduced to observable differences. If there is no operator that can distinguish two values, then they're identical, even the number 7 in your register EAX is formed from different electrons than the number 7 at the address 0x1234abcs. 18:51:33 gleag: actually no, that's the very essence of "object oriented" programming. Objects have identity 18:51:36 that's what EQ means 18:51:38 As I said, the usage of "identical" coming from the material world (keys, for example) is deceiving. 18:51:50 mathrick: we still don't know exactly if teleported persons are identical before or after in Star Trek! 18:52:05 pjb: what came through didn't live very long 18:52:16 The generally accepted theory is that they're copies, and therefore the ST civilization is the biggest murderer of all times :-) 18:52:22 mathrick: Uhm, as far as I'm awate, the esence of OOP is that objects react to messages in their own way each. 18:52:28 Whether two integers are eq isn't well defined in CL, though. 18:52:41 oh sorry, it's "what we got back didn't live very long" 18:52:58 *mathrick* blames having seen it in PL translation and years ago at that 18:53:17 ggole: indeed, it's an implementation detail. 18:53:32 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 18:53:47 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:53:49 I imagine that it could differ depending on optimisation level, even. 18:54:16 mathrick: For example, I can easily imagine a functional oop system with immutable objects, Oleg Kiselyov-style, for which EQ-like identity would be meaningless. 18:55:36 I don't know if it'd be meaningless 18:55:36 -!- Nisstyre-laptop is now known as nisstyre 18:55:49 depends on what you want to do with them 18:56:33 Meaningless in the sense that even if you'd have an operator for that, it wouldn't give you any programmer-useful information. 18:56:39 gleag: going back to LAMBDAs, they could be identically-shaped as sexps, but differ by the environment they were constructed in, and it isn't necessarily trivial to ascertain that in the compiler 18:56:39 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-252.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:20 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 18:57:35 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Client Quit] 18:57:40 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.190.170.threembb.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:55 gleag: it could, if you attached behaviours to specific instances (aka EQ method specialisers), then you wouldn't want it to matter than you just happened to get similarly-shaped data and resulting instances at some point 18:58:13 whether it's meaningful or meaningless depends on external semantics, not on mutability 18:58:50 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:44 I don't think the system supports that. I'm not even sure why one would want to do such a thing, actually. 18:59:58 (the system that OK proposed) 19:00:20 It was a message passing system, BTW - not a CLOS-like one. 19:00:54 Encoding meaning into whether two immutable objects are at the same address is a strange thing to want to do. 19:01:09 and CLOS specifically distinguishes between values, for which EQ is meaningless and undefined, and instances of other types, for which EQ is the way to distinguish and shape equivalence has to be requested 19:01:54 fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:02:37 s/undefined/unspecified/ 19:04:50 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 19:04:51 clos has eql method specializers, not eq. am i missing something 19:06:10 no, I'm saying things that are wrong and meant to say EQL 19:07:44 Bike: it could not be possible to have EQ specializer: numbers and characters may be _copied_ when passed as argument, so they could be never EQ! 19:08:23 yeah, that's why what I said was wrong 19:09:04 pjb: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Transporter#Accidental_deaths <-- this would suggest they were not copies 19:09:13 l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 19:09:19 at least not normally 19:09:29 -!- l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 19:09:51 That's true. An accident in STent would indicate that too. 19:09:51 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:59 Why does copying mean something cannot be eq? 19:11:26 eq is same memory area 19:11:57 copy is memory area->new memory area 19:12:00 copying means there would be two memory areas with two different pointers. 19:12:16 In a tagging scheme, values do not necessarily refer to a memory area at all. 19:12:21 ah 19:12:54 ggole: why do you say that ? 19:12:58 or what do you mean by that ? 19:13:16 In fact I would expect most integers and characters to fit within a tagged word and thus compare eq across copies (of course, this is implementation specific). 19:13:33 i thought a tag is just a header-byte like thing.... 19:14:12 fixnums do, bignums don't. which is why generally fixnums are eq in sbcl and bignums are not, for instance 19:14:26 like |runaway lane maybe...|8bits (for type) |.............| runaway lane (maybe)| 19:14:28 ggole: but that's the point: CL allows numbers to be implemented as boxed objects. 19:14:55 And numbers are immutable: so where is there a requirement for copying? 19:15:13 ggole: also this implementation choice may be unrelated to word size: an implementation targetting the JVM may want to use Java Integer class. 19:15:22 To be clear, I agree that copying is a possible implementation 19:15:26 -!- Aramur [~arare@9.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 19:15:33 ggole: the standard specifically says = numbers might or might not be EQ, and you're a fool to rely on it 19:15:36 Yes, very unfortunate that. 19:15:54 especially if you cross into bignums or port your code to ABCL 19:16:03 Sure, but we are discussing eq and copying, not =. 19:16:22 EQ is meaningless for numbers 19:16:23 svs__ [~svs@67-0-146-182.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:39 and characters. 19:16:49 because they're values and you're not allowed to consider their identity 19:16:54 and characters, yes 19:17:09 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 19:17:11 Didn't you argue otherwise earlier? 19:17:26 gleag: actually no, that's the very essence of "object oriented" programming. Objects have identity 19:17:27 that's what EQ means 19:17:28 I'm saying what ANSI CL says (and why it says so) 19:17:39 ggole: also numbers have no constituent part 19:17:40 s 19:17:48 they're shapeless values 19:17:49 Certainly 19:18:05 there's nothing to the number 3 aside from the value of 3 19:18:14 it has no part that could be changed 19:18:17 We are in violent agreement. 19:18:35 ggole: but for shaped objects with slots, that is not true 19:18:38 mutable or not 19:19:13 btw, I couldn't find any good rationale for why exactly JVM and CLR decided to make their strings immutable 19:19:19 (and python) 19:19:32 CLR I suspect because JVM did so 19:19:35 -!- svs_ [~svs@174-28-41-167.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:19:54 -!- spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:20:00 mathrick: mutating unicode strings being messy? 19:20:12 It has much cleaner semantics, and plays nice with threading. 19:20:14 mathrick: Probably because it's a good idea in the first place. 19:20:34 p_l: possibly, but I've never seen it mentioned as the reason, and I did search 19:20:36 A hash-table from strings to X can be very badly broken by mutating the key, for instance. 19:20:36 link? 19:20:45 Immutable strings remove that concern. 19:20:50 gleag: but why is it a good idea? 19:21:13 ggole: Also, variable-length internal encodings such as UTF-8 make the decision almost a non-issue. 19:21:42 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:21:50 gleag: UTF-8 isn't used internally, but even UTF-32 can have more than one codepoint forming a symbol 19:22:01 Right. Separate byte-arrays and text is a good model. 19:22:01 I'd like to see a writeup of "what can go wrong with mutable strings" and "how immutable strings remove that concern" and also "why strings but not other things" 19:22:10 p_l: look at C, Go, Ruby... 19:22:26 Ruby is no model for Unicode handling 19:22:28 neither is C 19:22:37 p_l: There's a lot of UTF-8 going around, and it can easily be more memory friendly. 19:22:38 -!- benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:22:42 Lots of other things are immutable: Java added a new immutable Date class precisely because the mutability of the old one was problematic. 19:22:44 gleag: C doesn't even get ascii characters, it has only bytes 19:22:46 C basically threw up its hands and said "alright guys, do what you want in libraries" 19:23:12 I think win32 is the only sizeable API to pay attention to wchar at all 19:23:19 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:23:39 well there's that whole thing with hash tables in CL. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/18_ab.htm 19:23:40 ggole: sure, I just want to know why strings are so specifically beneficial to have immutable 19:23:42 mathrick: that's because UCS-2 and later UTF-16LE are used internally 19:23:53 p_l: what "that" are you referring to? 19:23:54 that is, strings inside NT are Unicode 19:24:02 yeah 19:24:06 but it's a broken API 19:24:27 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:31 mostly because NT was too fast in implementing unicode and they went ahead with UCS-2 instead of waiting for UTF-8 19:24:35 mathrick: it's broken mostly by keeping compatibility with old APIs that don't get anything ;) 19:24:37 mathrick: it's partly for the same reason why immutable data structures, partly because mutable unicode array-like strings simply don't make sense? Many common operations can potentially change the byte length of the result and that makes it a lousy abstraction. 19:24:48 UTF-8 is older than NT, btw 19:25:05 p_l: yeah, I'm not exactly sure how they managed to decide it was a good idea 19:25:18 I *think* it was simply not common knowledge back then? 19:25:20 Immutable strings are nice because you never have to worry about whether you have to make a copy in order to preserve the value you want. 19:25:33 mathrick: from what I heard from someone currently dealing with implementing Unicode, UTF-32 is nicer in actual processing 19:25:34 but in general the NT API is supremely stupid when it comes to unicode 19:25:47 l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 19:25:52 p_l: that's debatable and depends very heavily on your processing 19:25:55 You can receive one and pass it around, save it, use it in multiple threads, whatever with zero worries. 19:25:55 and UCS-2 back then was "enough" 19:26:03 -!- l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 19:26:11 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-252.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:26:23 any time you deal with multi-codepoint characters, you need to be multibyte anyway, UCS-32 or not 19:26:35 so it doesn't really buy you any regularity 19:26:39 as well as "compromise between actually supporting unicode operations without expensive copying and memory size" 19:27:04 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host128.190-138-110.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:27:31 mathrick: when NT started, iirc you didn't have multi-codepoint cases often 19:27:36 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:27:44 Characters are arguably a bad abstraction for unicode. 19:28:08 ya and back then the unicode std was not as complete as yet ? 19:28:12 yeah, I know, but it was still a lousy idea if only because it's not compatible in ASCII ranges and instantly blows up your memory usage twice on ASCII data 19:28:34 as it was back then, it still was simpler than variable-length 19:28:45 variable length (aka UTF-16 instead of UCS-2) came later 19:29:11 and well... they used a language without immutable strings ;> 19:29:16 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:45 to quote someone who is currently implementing unicode 6.2 from scratch: "fixed width, brain dead stupid to get the code point scalar value" 19:30:14 Well, you can combine them into a bigint. 19:30:20 mathrick: Advil only matters in compueter code and us documents. The rest of the world actually needs more characters to represent texts in their language 19:30:41 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:30:46 ascii, not advil 19:31:46 p_l: I don't see strings being immutable as a strength, unless they are explicitly "const" (i.e. because they are compiled into bytecode) 19:31:50 I suspect most JSON is ascii 19:32:24 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:38 Not when used to encode non-us application data 19:33:45 ehu: even non-ASCII latin suffers greatly under UCS-2, and CJK codepoints are no worse and usually slightly more compact in UTF-8 than they'd be in UCS-2 (realistically, UTF-16) 19:34:25 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-227-163.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:34:37 *gleag* admits to be an UTF-8 bigot. 19:35:02 There ought to be instructions for decoding and encoding UTF-8 in modern CPUs. 19:35:49 Also, one other reason against mutable fixed-width encodings is the very existence of grapheme clusters. 19:36:19 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-14-77.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 19:37:11 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-252.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:14 gleag: Why do you need to be protected from writing string data? 19:37:34 What do you mean by that? 19:37:38 "mutable" 19:37:52 -!- zophy [~sy@host-8-35-107-208-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:37:54 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:37:57 you want to get what you put! 19:38:03 and not something else 19:38:04 cohn [~cohn@unaffiliated/cohn] has joined #lisp 19:38:12 That's because there aren't that many operations that make sense without having to resize the buffer. 19:38:34 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:38:39 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-143-223.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:55 gleag: What's your actual point 19:39:11 if its prone to mutation outside your intent/control ..... 19:39:25 Why does the ability to modify the buffer mean that it's prone to change? 19:39:37 That's my actual point: the benefits of having Unicode strings mutable are so tenuous that the disadvantages are mountain-sized in comparison. 19:40:13 gleag: I don't think there is much disadvantage, rather, I'm not sure there is any advantage 19:40:37 horusscope: It doesn't, but it's one invariant you can't rely on when programming in strings ("mutations can happen"), and at the same time, mutations of Unicode strings are often useless. So you get all the disadvantages but little of the advantages. 19:40:53 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:40:58 I'm new to Lisp, but in C we just type "const" 19:41:01 ehu` [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:41:30 To say that strings should always be immutable seems like a gross overexaggeration 19:41:40 C has actually little to do with this. This is a generic problem with Unicode. 19:42:06 You can represent unicode with an array of arbitrary bytes 19:42:11 I don't think unicode has anything to do with mutability 19:42:29 l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 19:42:31 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:42:53 That's like saying that you can represent any data with an array of arbitrary bytes. We call them files on disk, but it's the structure and code patterns that actually matter. 19:43:01 Exactly 19:43:01 -!- l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 19:43:14 you would be absolutely correct in saying that 19:43:18 And the patterns for manipulating Unicode strings are so complex that mutability has diminished advantages. 19:43:44 For example, changing one character in ASCII is trivial, but changing one character in Unicode may require a back buffer resize. 19:44:14 Wouldn't that depend on the initial allocation size? Beside the fact that many languages have functions which allow you to resize allocated memory in place 19:45:30 It still makes it an O(n) operation in the general case instread of an O(1). 19:45:42 uuh_ [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:45:44 How is copy O(1) 19:45:45 Now you try to compose them efficiently. It simply doesn't scale. 19:45:58 The change of one character, not the copy. 19:46:12 you can't change 1 character of an immutable string 19:46:22 you have to copy the whole string into a new array 19:46:23 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:46:32 That's why you don't do it - you do high-level operations. 19:46:52 If I know that I have a string I'm going to change, why does it need to be immutable, that makes no sense 19:47:19 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:47:47 It doesn't *need* to be, it's simply that any useful changes are so much likely to trigger new allocations that the mutability is of little value. I've said that before. 19:47:47 it's backwards, it's already immutable....now you have to change it! 19:48:32 So it's a good idea to admit that, program functionally, and get useful invariants on string values in exchange. 19:49:06 gleag: In an efficient program, assuming you know you're going to load a ton of strings and change them, you would simply make a memory pool in the first place and the buffer size would have an initial value large enough to account for most changes. 19:49:38 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:50:59 No. In an efficient program, you'd use high-level operations that the compiler can combine and fuse so as to make all ephemeral data as small as possible. Your brain seems to be hardwired for C programming, I'm afraid. 19:51:23 -!- uuh_ [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:51:47 I think Haskell is sort of on the right track with this, but there's still a lot of progress to be made. 19:51:54 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has left #lisp 19:52:09 hardwired lol 19:52:30 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:52:47 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:56 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:53:24 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:53:36 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:54:14 -!- ggole [~ggole@220-253-129-91.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 19:54:51 uuh_ [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:54:52 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:55:00 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:55:08 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:57:26 danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:26 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:18 -!- block87 [~Block87@185.25.87.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:59:10 -!- `fogus [~fogus@70.182.191.151] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:01:00 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:18 -!- ferada [~ferada@37.221.196.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:02:35 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p5091F772.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:03:05 ferada [~ferada@37.221.196.86] has joined #lisp 20:04:51 foeniks [~fevon@p5091F772.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:05:40 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:08:37 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-215-99.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: restarting...] 20:09:18 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:10:37 -!- tylergoza [~tylergoza@user-24-96-98-239.knology.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:17 add^_ [~user@m176-70-215-99.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 20:18:21 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:19:14 sdemarre [~serge@91.180.107.241] has joined #lisp 20:20:20 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 20:20:21 -!- uuh_ [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:20:55 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:21:16 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:22:30 uuh_ [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:24:04 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:25:21 snite_ [~enhearse@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 20:27:04 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:27:28 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:39 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:29:06 -!- uuh_ [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:32:34 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:36:44 milanj [~milanj@cable-94-189-138-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 20:37:35 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-61-68.toya.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:37:48 francogrex [~user@91.179.198.37] has joined #lisp 20:37:57 -!- snite_ [~enhearse@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:38:41 messages? 20:38:53 Not yet. 20:39:06 -!- scampbell [~scampbell@mail.scampbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:25 killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-61-68.toya.net.pl] has joined #lisp 20:39:31 :) I wasn't expecting any 20:40:02 desophos [~desophos@n163h85.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 20:40:32 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:35 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:44:06 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:45:33 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:45:48 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-203-73.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:48:03 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:d400:895b:c464:ed2c:5936] has joined #lisp 20:49:45 in a function's args is it possible to have only the very first argument as a &key and the rest not? or does it have to be always the last argument that is &key ? 20:50:08 -!- emacs-dwim [~user@rrcs-72-43-236-2.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:50:16 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:50:20 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 20:50:35 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:52:09 I'm not sure about "always the last", but keyword arguments definitely go behind the required and optionals. 20:52:36 Although combining optionals and keys smells badly, and if I'm not mistaken, it's strongly discouraged. 20:52:56 snite_ [~earliness@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 20:54:24 I was thinking somthing like (&key blabla "¬_key" x y z) instead of (x y z &key blabla) 20:54:44 that makes no sense 20:54:55 keyword arguments are by definition optional 20:55:06 you can't have positional arguments after optional ones 20:55:26 what'd that even mean? 20:55:30 block87 [~Block87@185.25.87.237] has joined #lisp 20:55:35 keyword args are optional? 20:55:37 yes 20:55:39 tylergoza [~tylergoza@user-24-96-98-239.knology.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:40 -!- dkordic [~danilo@5.138.142.175] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:56:05 They're optional_1, but not in the &optional sense (optional_2), since &optionals are positional in the sense of positional being not_keyword. 20:56:06 I'd like a second opinion here 20:56:22 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.105] has joined #lisp 20:56:33 francogrex: and furthermore are passed as two values comprised of 1) actual keyword symbol 2) value to be bound to the formal argument 20:57:09 so there's no way to distinguish you wanting to pass a keyword as a positional argument and you wanting to pass a keyword argument 20:57:22 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:57 francogrex: you can have both &rest and &key with &allow-other-keys. But then you must have an even number of arguments for &rest. 20:58:11 francogrex: otherwise, you can just have &rest and parse the argument list yourself. 20:58:14 so (defun foo (bar baz) (format t "~A" bar)) (foo :key 42) => ":key" 20:58:24 clhs 3.4.1.6 20:58:24 Examples of Ordinary Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_daf.htm 20:59:19 (defun f (&rest args) (let ((k (when (eq :k (first args)) (pop args) (pop args)))) (destructuring-bind (mandatory-1 mandatory-2 &optional opt) args . body))) 20:59:37 (f :k 42 a b) (f a b c) (f :k 42 a b c) 20:59:52 But of course, you can't pass :k for mandatory-1. 21:00:38 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:01:16 Now write a nice macro to do this automatically from some new kind of lambda-list! ;-) 21:01:22 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:01:30 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:54 -!- konr 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seconds] 21:07:57 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 21:08:10 ok ... 21:08:32 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:11:07 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:12:09 -!- seangrov` [~user@78-1-120-57.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:12:48 -!- tkd [~tomek@tlahuizcalpantecuhtli.wa.ht] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:15:03 |nix| [~user@uwyo-129-72-129-90.uwyo.edu] has joined #lisp 21:15:08 <|nix|> hi al 21:15:19 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 21:15:33 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:16:38 -!- ehu [~ehu@62.140.137.76] has quit [Quit: Bye] 21:17:12 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:15 -!- arnsa [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [] 21:19:45 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 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downloadico [~user@dhcp206.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:15:35 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:16:05 -!- jangle_ [~jimmy1984@50.241.129.73] has quit [Quit: jangle_] 22:18:37 -!- LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:20:29 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:20:39 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-61-68.toya.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:22:30 pjb: I had no idea you were musically inclined. Why don't you hack gsharp to understand jazz notation too? 22:24:24 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:41 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:59 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A337E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:27:41 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-243-208-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:30 ISF [~ivan@187.64.222.94] has joined #lisp 22:30:35 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:34:40 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-225-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:34:42 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 22:34:45 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:36:02 cantstanya [~what@2001:5c0:1000:a::f1] has joined #lisp 22:36:42 MoALTz_ [~no@host86-158-220-83.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:49 how do common lisp implemntations (e.g. sbcl) determine what machine code to generate? Is there any detection of availabe instruction sets/what sets does sbcl support on x86: AVX, SSE2, SSE etc? 22:37:22 sbcl doesn't have sse quite yet 22:39:40 <|3b|> sbcl has some internal flags that affect code generation, not sure if it sets any of them automatically or not 22:40:09 thanks, I'll try to find some more documentation on that 22:40:10 <|3b|> can't do too much of that automatically though, since people might want to save an image or .fasl and load it on another machine 22:40:16 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-158-220-83.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:40:25 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ] 22:40:44 cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-245-165.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 22:44:09 pillton [~user@140.253.50.147] has joined #lisp 22:45:21 Can I take an image created on 32bit Linux and run directly on 64bit Linux? 22:47:24 nightshade427: At best, it depends on the compiler. 22:49:15 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9EE83.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:30 Sbcl 22:50:30 Sorry should have mentioned that 22:51:44 I think according to sbcl-source/src/compiler/x86-64/simd-pack.lisp sse is used on x86-64 22:53:09 was the reddit source ever released of the CL initial version? 22:55:08 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-26-143-223.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 22:55:14 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:50 -!- kwmiebach_ [~kwmiebach@xdsl-213-196-211-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:56:57 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p5091F772.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:56:59 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:57:10 nightshade427: yes, you can 22:57:33 blaaa: on amd64, SSE1 and SSE2 are available in standard 22:58:13 p_l: Awesome! Thanks :) 22:58:15 SBCL afaik doesn't really have code for "extensions" to ISA 22:58:30 nightshade427: same caveats apply as any other program - you need to have 32bit libs etc. 22:58:46 and if it's separate image, you need the executable it was generated with 22:59:16 and by separate you mean "not generated with :executable t", right? 22:59:21 yes 23:00:35 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:01:25 p_l: thanks. 23:01:56 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:02:19 blaaa: on amd64, in general, you do floating point with SSE2, I don't remember if x87 was even available from 64bit code, so you'd have SSE at least there :) 23:03:22 I don't think it is 23:03:29 not without doing scary and unsavoury things 23:03:44 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 23:04:04 sounds like significant amount of optimized code 23:04:06 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-143-223.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:29 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:05:47 so it's sort of there, but included only in a "enjoy your throwbacks to x86" way, outside of the normal register file, and OSs generally reserve the right to lose compatibility with it in the future 23:07:04 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:07:27 sounds like something that could get you a "dude, that's impressive, but no way, no how, not ever are we supporting that" 23:07:56 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:08:29 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:13 (from OS vendor, that is) 23:10:57 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 23:11:47 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:02 leontopod [leontopod@intertwingled.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:38 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:15:33 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:15:43 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 23:16:56 -!- chenjf [~chenjf@58.254.172.190] has left #lisp 23:18:28 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 23:19:32 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 23:19:55 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:23:34 i have a question for CLISP users 23:23:50 when i boot clisp what package am i in? 23:24:08 moreover, if i define some functions at start 23:24:18 ryankarason: (print *package*) 23:24:46 pillton: hmm intersting 1 second 23:24:49 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:25:18 common lisp user 23:25:22 ah intersting 23:25:27 so if i define some things 23:25:55 and then i move to (in-package :some-pak) 23:26:12 if i move back to common-lisp-user, i should have access to my functions again, no? 23:26:14 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 23:26:16 yes 23:26:23 i suppose i should just test it 23:26:27 ryankarason: yes. 23:26:28 pillton: thank you! 23:26:30 if you do (in-package :common-lisp-user) 23:26:32 and p_l thaks as well 23:26:35 fantastic. 23:26:36 ! 23:26:38 :D 23:26:38 mind you, it's part of the CL standard :) 23:26:47 okay. great to know! 23:27:06 gotta love when one has questions and others have answers. and give them without biting!!! 23:27:10 what isn't standardized is what kind of extra packages you might also have in :USE list of COMMON-LISP-USER (other than COMMON-LISP) 23:27:17 ryankarason: happens sometimes ;) 23:27:20 ah okay. 23:27:22 a lot depends on asker :) 23:27:29 well i got lucky today:D 23:27:42 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:27:58 ryankarason: I have had two coffees. That always helps. 23:28:17 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-245-165.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:33 -!- block87 [~Block87@185.25.87.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:29:00 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124.169.153.157] has joined #lisp 23:29:17 pillton: :P~ 23:29:28 anything good going on in the (world) today? 23:30:35 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:31:08 block87 [~Block87@185.25.87.237] has joined #lisp 23:32:08 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.59.95] has joined #lisp 23:34:04 -!- tylergoza [~tylergoza@user-24-96-98-239.knology.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:34:13 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:35:41 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-252.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:10 can anyone help me with this little problem please? http://paste.lisp.org/display/139170 23:38:01 axion: what "seems to be unbound"? 23:38:20 -!- tertl3-laptop [~tertl3-la@75.139.64.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:38:36 if i place a collect after the (<:a) form like the example commented, it ays collect is unbound 23:38:54 yes, it's a loop construct, not a function 23:39:21 if you want to use month-name and all in multiple collection clause forms you'll need to have them as loop variables instead 23:39:41 but it works in the example without the lets...what should i do if i wnt to keep the lets 23:39:47 oh, hmm 23:40:11 you can have multiple collect clauses, of course 23:40:51 yes i can in the commented example, but not inside a let form whih is inside the loop form 23:41:06 Right, because inside the let form you're just doing Lisp again, not the loop language. 23:41:19 The loop language has collect, not regular lisp forms. 23:41:53 ah 23:42:14 which is what i meant when i said that "collect" is not a function 23:43:11 cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-6-13.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 23:43:43 ok, i'll try some other things after i read more on loop 23:44:13 unless you have an alternative suggestion to the problem 23:45:31 a quick and dirty way would be using nconc instead of collect, and returning a list of things to append. 23:46:10 uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:46:47 great thanks 23:47:01 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-184-128.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:50:30 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:51:12 -!- uuh [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:51:37 spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has joined #lisp 23:52:48 I'm a little confused as to why Practical Common Lisp uses #' in e.g. (remove-if-not #'evenp '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)) - experimentally, just using 'evenp seems to work. What do I not know here? 23:55:05 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@201.165.170.161] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:55:07 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:56:30 -!- spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:56:56 Ketsuban: #'foo is the function foo, 'foo is the symbol foo which remove-if-not uses to look up the actual function in the global space 23:57:31 Ketsuban: for example if you have a local (i.e. not in the global environment) function called "foo", (remove-if-not 'evenp ...) will use the global function, and (remove-if-not #'evenp ...) the local 23:57:39 Yeah, someone outside this channel helped me understand that, I was in the middle of typing words to that effect. Thanks, though. :) 23:58:58 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124.169.153.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:00:32 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:d400:895b:c464:ed2c:5936] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:03:37 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-156-22.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:06:24 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:49 thanks Bike. nconc is what i was after 00:07:02 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-26-143-223.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 00:08:56 Gooder [~user@206.124.126.33] has joined #lisp 00:09:27 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-143-223.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:13 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 00:17:16 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-252.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:23:24 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:23:32 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 00:24:22 is there any function like map, that applys a function with two parameters such that it takes two lists of equal size? 00:26:13 -!- hwiersma [~hwiersma@S0106602ad08e475a.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:27:36 map does that 00:27:38 so does mapcar 00:27:58 and the lists can be of different lengths, but it only goes on as far as the shorter list goes. 00:29:39 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:29:44 spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has joined #lisp 00:34:40 -!- spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:36:45 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:38:14 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-067-111.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:32 hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has joined #lisp 00:38:45 -!- harish_ [~harish@119.56.126.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:38:50 jamestfarrington [~james@cpe-24-168-35-186.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:39:37 sykopomp: heh, i just i thought about just trying mapcar but didn't instead was trying maplist which was getting me nowhere :| 00:39:40 thank you much. 00:39:52 this shall be of great assistance:P~ 00:41:52 -!- leontopod [leontopod@intertwingled.net] has quit [Quit: I always have coffee when I watch radar!] 00:45:55 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 00:48:01 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:49:19 hargettp [~hargettp@c-76-119-233-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:57 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@c-76-119-233-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:57:23 spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has joined #lisp 00:58:54 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:58:59 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:58 -!- spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:02:09 prxq__ [~mommer@x2f67e74.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 01:02:52 -!- aw [~zacharias@unaffiliated/aw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03:02 fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:03:23 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:03:35 aw [~zacharias@unaffiliated/aw] has joined #lisp 01:03:42 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:04:30 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 01:05:08 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@x2f6be40.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:05:45 zRecursive [~czsq888@61.157.42.148] has joined #lisp 01:05:48 antgreen [~green@67.207.116.150] has joined #lisp 01:06:41 -!- travisr_ [~travisrod@17.115.47.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:07:36 svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:38 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:09:41 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:11:32 travisr [~travisrod@17.115.47.212] has joined #lisp 01:14:36 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:15:48 fenton [~fenton@ppp-115-87-20-137.revip4.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 01:15:58 fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:16:20 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has joined #lisp 01:16:27 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:46 -!- desophos [~desophos@n163h85.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:18:51 harish_ [~harish@119.234.165.31] has joined #lisp 01:21:01 Do Common Lisp compilers use continuation passing style? 01:21:26 i think cps compiling is out of vogue 01:21:31 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 01:21:53 ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 01:22:03 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:d400:895b:c464:ed2c:5936] has joined #lisp 01:22:29 Bike: I dont think so, but it doesnt seem common in CL. 01:23:20 why the heck am i reading a 140 page thesis on it then - sigh. 01:23:23 I was just working on a CPS-style compiler with folks from Penn, Harvard, and Northeastern. 01:23:48 spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has joined #lisp 01:24:46 i just remember hearing people dismiss it as SSA-equivalent is all 01:25:04 Bike: And the same happens in reverse ;) 01:25:25 heh, alright then. 01:26:14 Bike: I think certain features or other aspects maybe map more obviously to SSA or CPS, so it depends on the language (although maybe mostly the implementers) as to which is preferred. 01:26:35 I didnt keep up with those arguments very well. I just wrote the code. 01:29:11 hargettp [~hargettp@76.119.233.220] has joined #lisp 01:29:30 -!- spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:29:40 I'm trying to figure out how to implement light-weight closures in my Common Lisp compiler - any recommendations on what to read? 01:30:40 what do you have now? 01:32:20 I allocate all local variables in arrays on the heap. Function calls/arguments on the heap LET/bindings stored on the heap. 01:32:26 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@76.119.233.220] has quit [Client Quit] 01:32:51 you should probably start with just free variable analysis and go from there only if you have to 01:34:10 -!- harish_ [~harish@119.234.165.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:34:18 -!- fenton [~fenton@ppp-115-87-20-137.revip4.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 01:36:40 Right - how does one do "free variable analysis" on Common Lisp code. I'm assuming you give some "free variable analyzer" a top level form and it figures out what variables are free and which are not? Free variables go on the heap, non-free(?) variables can go on the stack? 01:37:17 say you have the trivial function (lambda (x) x) 01:37:37 you can analyze this easily to see that it has no free variables, only the bound x. so you can generate code that just uses the same function every time. no need for a closure. 01:38:30 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:38:32 you can also stack allocate it since nothing in the body uses x in its own closure 01:38:56 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:50 Right - and (let ((x 1) (y 2)) (+ x y)) has no free variables, everything could go on the stack. 01:41:35 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-067-111.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:42:15 you can define a simple analyzer easily. (defun free-in (form bound-env) ...) and case. a symbol has a free itself if it's not bound, a non-cons-or-symbol has nothing free, (progn ...) recurses over the ..., etc 01:42:38 that sentence is badly constructed but hopefully understandable. 01:43:10 Bike - let's move this to #sbcl - I understand your last statement. 01:43:25 pkhuong will totally outclass me in #sbcl, though :( 01:43:28 if i have a function that returns a list of all stored 'urls' given a category parameter, and a function that returns all categories, how can i write a nested loop that lists each category with the related links before the next category listed? 01:44:25 (loop for cat in (all-categories) collect (cons cat (urls cat)))? 01:44:36 Bike - I appreciate your answers a lot - I understand them :-) 01:45:19 sohail [~sohail@75-119-250-178.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:45:19 -!- sohail [~sohail@75-119-250-178.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 01:45:19 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 01:46:17 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:47:15 i think an important thing to remember is that most functions don't have to be closures (i think - i have no data) so even if you just get as far as making some functions just functions and others full-on closures you'll improve your runtimes a lot 01:47:56 Yes, that's _exactly_ what I'm looking for - right now everything is a closure and everything is very slow but correct. 01:49:05 spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has joined #lisp 01:49:47 right, the basic very-bad lisp :) doing the free analysis thing should help that a lot, i hope. pretty easy to write too, just macroexpand everything and handle the special forms and other three possibilities 01:50:44 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@61.157.42.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:51:01 zRecursive [~czsq888@61.157.42.148] has joined #lisp 01:51:10 -!- anunnaki [~anunnaki@c-174-54-115-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:52:18 harish_ [harish@nat/redhat/x-yfujmsefcracuggf] has joined #lisp 01:53:25 -!- spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:53:26 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 01:55:39 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:56:44 -!- jamestfarrington [~james@cpe-24-168-35-186.hvc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:59:39 antonv [5d7d2a42@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.66] has joined #lisp 02:00:03 -!- antonv is now known as Guest2383 02:00:59 -!- Guest2383 [5d7d2a42@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.66] has quit [Client Quit] 02:01:35 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:01:53 antonv2 [5d7d2a42@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.66] has joined #lisp 02:02:18 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 02:02:47 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 02:03:38 eli [~eli@lambda.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 02:03:38 -!- eli [~eli@lambda.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Changing host] 02:03:38 eli [~eli@racket/eli] has joined #lisp 02:03:49 aw|incendiary [~zacharias@unaffiliated/aw] has joined #lisp 02:03:52 Bike: thats kind of what i had, but also (urls cat) returns a list of plists containing links where getf is needed to extract the data, so i'm thinking a nested loop is needed...no? 02:03:55 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:55 -!- aw [~zacharias@unaffiliated/aw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:04:30 plists with what keys? 02:04:46 :url :title :category 02:06:39 desophos [~desophos@n163h85.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 02:06:47 collect (cons cat (mapcar (lambda (plist) (getf plist :url)) (urls cat))) 02:07:28 spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has joined #lisp 02:09:40 excellent, thanks. i fail to realize map* too often 02:10:02 the mapcar could also be (loop for plist in (urls cat) collect (getf plist :url)) 02:11:26 `cbp [~cbp@189.139.144.126] has joined #lisp 02:12:41 <`cbp> hello, what's a good ide for a lisp beginner that wants to focus mostly on learning the language and not the tools (ie not emacs) 02:13:03 emacs 02:13:20 Other than that I hear racket's thing is good, if you're ok with racket 02:15:37 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 02:16:23 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:17:05 [SLB]` [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 02:17:56 it's a little out of date, but I think Peter Seibel's lispbox thing still works ok to start with 02:19:18 ssqq [~songzhiqu@221.4.142.91] has joined #lisp 02:19:45 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 02:19:52 <`cbp> nialo: thanks 02:19:54 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:19:54 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 02:20:17 Do have back quote function name just like 'quote' is to ' 02:20:31 -!- spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:20:32 nope. 02:20:57 and quote isn't a function('s name), it's a special operator('s name). 02:21:06 (nope a) 02:21:20 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:21:31 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.59.95] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 02:22:23 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:22:49 tertl3-laptop [~tertl3-la@75.139.64.89] has joined #lisp 02:23:34 the character of back quote and quote is so similar: '`'`'`'`'`'`'` 02:24:01 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.59.95] has joined #lisp 02:25:26 spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has joined #lisp 02:28:40 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.115.47.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:30:42 -!- spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:31:26 spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has joined #lisp 02:33:08 I found 'function' also could return 'list', for list is code, so function also could return code 02:35:38 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 02:42:21 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 02:42:28 -!- justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has quit [K-Lined] 02:42:28 -!- nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has quit [K-Lined] 02:42:28 -!- dan64 [dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [K-Lined] 02:42:28 -!- xristos [x@ns3.suspicious.org] has quit [K-Lined] 02:43:14 Bike: this is what i got thanks to your help. i was wondering if it is trivial to wrap each category's links in their own
    tag. as you see i added the
  • but i'm not sure how to add
      only every set of links (not for categories). 02:43:19 http://paste.lisp.org/display/139171 02:43:21 xristos [x@ns3.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 02:43:21 dan64 [dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 02:43:32 -!- xristos is now known as Guest12579 02:43:44 justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 02:44:21 axion: I don't know how this package works. is <:ul a function? If so just (apply #'<:ul (mapcar ...)) 02:45:28 (<:ul (<:li item)) expands to this html
      • item
      02:45:38 yes, but is it a macro or what. 02:45:45 yes part of sexml 02:46:00 < is actually a package 02:46:15 I know that much. 02:48:05 -!- ssqq [~songzhiqu@221.4.142.91] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:48:13 But what you want to do is have <:ul with arguments from a list rather than literal code. 02:50:17 hmm 02:50:23 -!- spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:52:04 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:54:19 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:11 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:57:09 -!- tertl3-laptop [~tertl3-la@75.139.64.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:57:39 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:57:51 ssqq [~songzhiqu@221.4.142.91] has joined #lisp 02:59:11 Could Function return a macro? 03:04:39 what would that mean exactly? 03:06:28 Gooder` [~user@206.124.126.33] has joined #lisp 03:09:26 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-148-192.w109-222.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:09:33 Good morning. 03:09:36 -!- Gooder [~user@206.124.126.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:10:15 Interpreter first compute macro, then function, if a function return macro, Interpreter how to do? 03:10:35 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 03:10:51 A function cannot return a macro. 03:10:53 been a while, beach 03:11:08 Bike: Yes, sorry about that. 03:12:30 (list defmacro () (print "hello world")) 03:12:46 -!- ssqq [~songzhiqu@221.4.142.91] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:16:21 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:01 -!- `cbp [~cbp@189.139.144.126] has left #lisp 03:22:05 meiji11 [~user@75.158.41.148] has joined #lisp 03:25:35 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:26:12 -!- joneshf-laptop_ [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:28:30 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:39 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:31:33 -!- ashish is now known as ashish_ 03:31:57 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 03:32:40 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 03:33:02 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:34:47 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 03:36:58 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 03:37:31 -!- Gooder` [~user@206.124.126.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:40:28 Gooder` [~user@12.199.200.124] has joined #lisp 03:41:25 patbarron [~pat@lectroid.com] has joined #lisp 03:43:42 -!- capisce [srodal@rs5.risingnet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:48:12 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: "", said the cow] 03:49:27 tertl3-laptop [~tertl3-la@75.139.64.89] has joined #lisp 03:49:36 capisce [srodal@rs5.risingnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:00 jleija [~jleija@50.15.142.21] has joined #lisp 03:50:37 arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-rclfthpykiuaqhcg] has joined #lisp 03:52:54 -!- ashish_ [having@badti.me] has quit [Quit: We are all in the gutter, but some of us are dreaming of butter. 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[~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:34:51 -!- uuh_ [~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:35:42 -!- fenton [~fenton@ppp-115-87-20-137.revip4.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 05:37:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:38:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.224.193] has joined #lisp 05:38:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.224.193] has quit [Changing host] 05:38:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:38:37 is there a popular library that provides a equality multimethod? (trivial to implement, but still wonder) 05:39:05 i think there was a cdr about it. 05:39:46 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-23-26-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:39:50 Probably explaining why it is fundamentally non-trivial since equality is not well defined. 05:40:04 -!- travisr [~travisrod@173-13-144-65-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:40:15 You'll want a bunch of them for the various kinds of equality that you care about. 05:41:47 -!- hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:41:57 yeah... I just made a multimethod that in the general case calls out to equalp, but can be specialized for clos classes 05:42:47 It's kind of annoying that equalp can handle structure equality but is not extendible for clos class equality 05:42:53 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:43:30 ggole [~ggole@203-59-85-169.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:43:57 CL is generally hard to extend. 05:44:10 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 05:44:17 spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has joined #lisp 05:47:17 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:48 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:49:35 -!- spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:52:13 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has joined #lisp 05:52:34 maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:53 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 05:54:20 nightfly, (defgeneric equal? (x y)) (defmethod equal? (x y) (equalp x y)) 05:55:25 -!- antonv2 [5d7d2a42@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:56:15 sorry, it seems that was already obvious to you 05:56:23 -!- axion [~axion@28.sub-70-197-198.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:56:31 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@109.231.229.69] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:56:40 (in my opinion, a general equality predicate is usually a bad idea because of what Zhivago said) 05:57:16 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: maintainance destroyed by reoccurring activity] 05:59:26 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:59:33 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 05:59:35 axion [~axion@28.sub-70-197-198.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 06:03:19 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:04:04 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:05:26 maxter_ [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 06:09:31 -!- maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:09:39 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:09:42 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-1.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:10:01 Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 06:12:13 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 06:12:32 uuh [~qicruser@194.230.155.146] has joined #lisp 06:13:49 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:14:09 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:14:30 -!- housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:14:55 housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 06:16:12 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 06:18:06 spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has joined #lisp 06:19:29 mrSpec [~Spec@77-254-134-128.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 06:19:29 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@77-254-134-128.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:19:29 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:22:28 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 06:23:53 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:d400:3ea9:f4ff:fe31:5798] has joined #lisp 06:27:07 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 06:27:28 -!- spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:28:31 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:d400:3ea9:f4ff:fe31:5798] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:29:40 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:51 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:32:15 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 06:35:49 -!- meiji11 [~user@75.158.41.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:37:00 -!- uuh [~qicruser@194.230.155.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 251 seconds] 06:37:56 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:38:04 spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has joined #lisp 06:39:42 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9D107.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:39:42 -!- desophos [~desophos@n163h85.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:40:49 travisr [~travisrod@173-13-144-65-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:21 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-135.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:51:32 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-237-55.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:52:09 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-nkmhqfzrmzvewwlf] has joined #lisp 06:53:58 shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-ehzwwpstfglfyewz] has joined #lisp 06:54:10 -!- PuffTheMagic [uid3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eywiomammhttplkm] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:54:46 PuffTheMagic [uid3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fxjeoezumlblrxkb] has joined #lisp 06:55:21 eeezkil [~eeezkil@unaffiliated/eeezkil] has joined #lisp 06:56:41 jewel [~jewel@105-236-99-207.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:59:09 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tsch] 07:02:29 -!- harish_ [harish@nat/redhat/x-yfujmsefcracuggf] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:05:33 -!- ered [~ered@75-101-56-39.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:09:11 is there an easy way to sort a list of plists alphabetically by one of their key values? 07:09:29 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-142.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:09:42 bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has joined #lisp 07:10:07 Sure, write a suitable accessor and call sort. 07:10:38 -!- pillton [~user@140.253.50.147] has left #lisp 07:10:53 ered [~ered@75-101-56-39.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:24 hmm 07:12:27 axion: (sort (copy-list plists) #'< :key (lambda (plist) (getf plist :key))) 07:13:01 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-28-8.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:14:26 -!- ered [~ered@75-101-56-39.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:14:30 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:15:46 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:16:26 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 07:17:33 thanks 07:20:02 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9D107.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:20:29 ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:59 ered [~ered@75-101-56-39.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:17 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 07:21:59 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip68-99-254-231.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:23:07 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by 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Leaving.] 07:55:42 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:55:43 zophy [~sy@host-180-21-2-96.midco.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.224.193] has joined #lisp 07:56:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.224.193] has quit [Changing host] 07:56:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:57:51 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:59:51 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.219.78] has joined #lisp 07:59:51 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.219.78] has quit [Changing host] 07:59:51 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 08:01:34 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:01:51 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-237-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:54 -!- ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:01:56 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:03:07 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@61.157.42.148] has left #lisp 08:03:14 ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 08:06:31 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:08:42 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:09:07 gusta [~user@c7F7CBF51.dhcp.as2116.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:31 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:10:52 how can I access the slots off a simple-error condition object, or how can I regenerate the error message given by format-control and format-arguments? 08:11:06 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:12:22 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 08:12:53 -!- zophy [~sy@host-180-21-2-96.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:13:37 vmmenon [~vmmenon@CPE-120-145-136-206.lnse2.pie.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:14:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:15:00 -!- guyal [~anonymous@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:15:01 gusta: simple-error is a subclass of simple-condition. 08:15:15 you might find what you need under simple-condition. 08:15:23 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:15:37 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:15:51 gusta: Using PRINT should work to get the message. 08:16:54 Shinmera [~linus@public-docking-pat-cx-mapped-0022.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 08:17:41 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:18:01 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-98-246-180-47.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:19:36 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-98-246-180-47.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:06 beach: thanks, I'll see what methods are availabe for simple-condition, however just printing it does not get the actual error message: 08:21:11 (print *errrrrr*) 08:21:11 08:21:11 # ~I~_when called with arguments ~2I~_~S.~:>" {1006D80003}> 08:21:23 gusta: Try PRINC then. 08:22:08 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 08:22:56 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:23:10 clhs 9.1.3 08:23:11 Printing Conditions: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_ac.htm 08:23:11 beach: thanks! that will show the details of the format-arguments 08:23:54 ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 08:24:08 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-28-8.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:25:44 ogamita [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:32:48 gusta: I highly recommend you read the relevant sections of the HyperSpec. It is quite precise and well written. 08:36:25 beach: thanks, I will 08:39:00 pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has joined #lisp 08:40:55 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:41:05 JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:43:23 -!- ogamita [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:44:46 ogamita [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:47:57 beach: (let ((*print-escape* nil)) (write *errrrrr*)) also does what I as looking for, thank you for pointing me in the right direction, the clhs clearly states that "No function is provided for directly accessing or invoking condition reporters" which answers my first question 08:48:25 I am glad you found the answer. 08:49:02 ogamita` [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:53:30 -!- ogamita 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has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 09:34:13 -!- vmmenon [~vmmenon@CPE-120-145-136-206.lnse2.pie.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: vmmenon] 09:34:19 eeezkil1 [~eeezkil@37.157.172.68] has joined #lisp 09:35:12 -!- eeezkil [~eeezkil@unaffiliated/eeezkil] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:37:41 -!- snite_ [~earliness@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:38:13 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-237-55.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:41:09 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9D107.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:41:14 arnsa [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:42:44 -!- arnsa [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Client Quit] 09:43:10 arnsa [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:46:20 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.197.158] has joined #lisp 09:48:59 -!- Shinmera [~linus@public-docking-pat-cx-mapped-0022.ethz.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:51:50 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:51:55 snite_ [~flotsam@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 09:59:17 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-237-55.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:02:39 hitecnologys_ [~hitecnolo@46.233.247.236] has joined #lisp 10:02:55 sz0 [~textual@92.44.62.223] has joined #lisp 10:05:52 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.197.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:12:27 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 10:15:41 agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:04 ltbarcly [~textual@149.11.108.26] has joined #lisp 10:16:25 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@149.11.108.26] has quit [Client Quit] 10:17:19 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-60.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:21:42 -!- seangrov` [~user@89-201-230-208.dsl.optinet.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:22:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-28-8.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:22:36 eeezkil [~eeezkil@unaffiliated/eeezkil] has joined #lisp 10:26:52 -!- eeezkil1 [~eeezkil@37.157.172.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:28:03 -!- agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:32:41 Vai1 [~other@94.25.228.16] has joined #lisp 10:32:44 hello 10:34:12 i'm really new to lisp and its really awesome language, sorry for silly questions in advance 10:35:43 http://vpaste.net/zxhEF how can i make one symbols be evaluated in macro expansion time on other don't? I want (test foo (a b c)) to be expanded to (defun foo (a b c) (list 'a a 'b b 'c c)). 10:35:45 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:38:25 <|3b|> (list 'quote a b)? 10:39:33 <|3b|> or rather (list (list 'quote a) b) 10:39:56 |3b|: huh? now i'm generating my list with `(defun ,name ,fields (list ,@(mapcan (lambda (a b) (list a b)) '(a b c) fields))) . Do you mean i have change internal of lambda to 10:40:05 <|3b|> or `(a ,b) 10:40:21 <|3b|> right, replacing the (list a b) in the lambda 10:40:35 (list `(quote ,a) b) 10:40:42 thanks, i'll try that. 10:41:23 <|3b|> yeah, my last one was wrong too 10:42:40 <|3b|> or (list `',a b) 10:43:08 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 10:44:27 <|3b|> or `(',a ,b) 10:46:41 guyal [~anonymous@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:04 -!- EvW1 [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:49:06 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 10:51:13 ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 10:51:24 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.59.95] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 10:54:06 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:56:47 harish_ [~harish@119.56.127.44] has joined #lisp 10:58:36 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 11:03:24 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:05:50 -!- antgreen [~green@67.207.116.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:06:43 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:07:08 -!- Vai1 [~other@94.25.228.16] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:18:10 davazp [~user@92.251.213.27.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 11:20:18 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:22:57 saysjonathan [~saysjonat@cpe-69-204-253-25.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:23:13 seangrov` [~user@89-201-233-158.dsl.optinet.hr] has joined #lisp 11:27:06 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:30:00 FrostyX [~frostyx@tux.inf.upol.cz] has joined #lisp 11:33:04 Hi guys. I am new in lisp. We have subject OOP in school and teacher told us to use LispWorks. I am really dont comfortable with this IDE. I want ask - is it possible to use LispWorks interpreter somewhere outside? I mean write scripts in common text editor and run them by LispWorks interpreter .. 11:33:21 ? 11:35:55 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:d400:3ea9:f4ff:fe31:5798] has joined #lisp 11:37:21 I would imagine so. Have a look at the documentation. 11:37:28 FrostyX: you really have a better editor for lisp programs than LispWorks? 11:37:41 jdz: ViM 11:38:47 agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:02 I don't think vi[m] supports running a repl within it, so you might lack a bit of integration there 11:39:29 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:39:52 FrostyX: also, is the LispWorks a non-crippled one? (that is, not the trial edition?) 11:40:40 FrostyX: and what OS? 11:40:57 FrostyX: but generally you can load a program using the menu in LispWorks 11:42:46 FrostyX: also you probably do not have to use LispWorks at all if you're not using anything LispWorks specific 11:42:47 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-6-13.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:42:55 jdz: Its crippled version - linux version. I really dont want integrate something somewhere :-) I will be totaly comfortable with writing code in ViM and run it in other whindow in terminal. If it is possible 11:43:12 FrostyX: you can use SBCL or Clozure CL, then 11:44:06 FrostyX: you'll be missing out on a lot of cool stuff lisp has to offer, but that's your choice 11:44:23 jdz: I heard we will use some LispWorks specific libraries or something (so probably I cant use that other interpreters :-/ 11:44:26 ) 11:44:29 FrostyX: for instance, in lisp there is no need to reload the whole program if you make a change 11:45:21 ggole: vim does support running a repl, if you use slimv 11:45:26 FrostyX: and they are called compilers nowadays, not interpreters 11:45:35 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:45:59 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-110-74.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:46:01 FrostyX: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/LWUG/html/lwuser-16.htm 11:46:06 FrostyX: or just "implementations" 11:46:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:46:22 FrostyX: presumably it would work with slimv as well which would let you get a REPL and other goodies inside vim 11:46:28 capisce: that won't work with trial edition i'm pretty sure 11:46:38 jdz: ah, what a shame 11:46:53 don't they get educational licenses for such software? 11:47:08 FrostyX: what do you mean by "crippled"? 11:47:11 they should, if the teacher would bother to do it properly 11:47:26 is it "LispWorks Personal Edition"? 11:47:33 capisce: i used that word 11:47:40 because the page notes it does not support SLIME 11:47:54 capisce: Yes, personal edition 11:48:03 that's a shame then 11:48:15 boo on your professor 11:48:36 Yeah, he should be using Python. 11:48:38 *ggole* coughs 11:50:43 Ok guys, I will ask my professor if is it possible to use another implementation or not. (Older students told me not, but I wont give anything for ask). Thank you 11:51:24 tell him people on the internet booed him 11:52:53 it is possible to run swank with LW personal edition, but you have to launch it manually 11:52:54 Ok, I hope I will pass exams :-D 11:53:16 and have the IDE running in the background 11:53:36 pavelpenev: does that also work with vim? 11:53:49 jdz: can vim connect to a swank server? if so, I guess it should :) 11:53:54 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:54:18 anyway, people setting artificial obstacles in their own way should learn to deal with them themselves 11:54:35 basically I load quicklisp, quickload swank, start a server, minimize the IDE and type M-x slime-connect in emacs 11:54:37 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:55:30 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:51 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 11:56:53 FrostyX: you get to use common lisp in school? FUCKING AWESOME!!! I got to use racket for half a semester taught by a person who didn't know it very well, not as nice :) 11:57:49 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 11:57:50 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:d400:3ea9:f4ff:fe31:5798] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:58:02 pavelpenev: We used racket in last two semesters too. But now we have last part of this subject with OOP in Lisp 11:58:19 I learned oop in C++, you lucky dog :) 11:58:28 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-48.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:59:09 FrostyX: unless you have to use modules specific to Lispworks (eg. CAPI), you should be able to very easily develop with another implementation, and deploy on Lispworks. 11:59:15 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:59:23 -!- ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:59:42 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:59:51 Otherwise, the PE is too limited for anything useful, such as loading my libraries :-) 12:00:56 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 12:02:49 -!- sz0 [~textual@92.44.62.223] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 12:04:15 breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:49 -!- saysjonathan [~saysjonat@cpe-69-204-253-25.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:05:00 saysjonathan [~saysjonat@205.186.144.72] has joined #lisp 12:05:31 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:07:11 -!- saysjonathan [~saysjonat@205.186.144.72] has quit [Client Quit] 12:09:18 saysjonathan [~saysjonat@205.186.144.72] has joined #lisp 12:09:18 -!- saysjonathan [~saysjonat@205.186.144.72] has quit [Client Quit] 12:12:55 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:12:59 saysjonathan [~saysjonat@205.186.144.72] has joined #lisp 12:16:53 sz0 [~textual@92.44.62.223] has joined #lisp 12:17:02 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.213.27.threembb.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:19:31 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 12:20:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-60.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:22:40 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:22:52 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 12:27:26 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 12:28:20 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9D107.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:30:28 -!- bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has quit [] 12:31:17 antonv [5d7d2a42@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.66] has joined #lisp 12:35:26 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:35:35 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 12:37:49 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:38:07 bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has joined #lisp 12:40:30 emacs-dwim [~user@rrcs-72-43-236-2.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:41:05 -!- bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has quit [] 12:42:02 bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has joined #lisp 12:42:04 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-239.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:50:32 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:51:00 marko-v [~user@unaffiliated/marko-v] has joined #lisp 12:52:50 is there any trick to get READ-LINE or GET-CHAR to work properly in a SLIME REPL? It seems if I call them from the REPL, it works. But if I call a function which invokes either of those functions, the input doesn't seem to get "accepted" and my only option is to just ^C out 12:54:07 Quadrescence: Create swank server in terminal, then connect to it via slime. 12:54:16 :| 12:54:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:55:00 cdidd [~cdidd@128-69-5-76.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 12:56:52 knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has joined #lisp 12:57:18 Quadrescence: that's because the repl thread rebinds *standard-input* 12:57:28 I think 12:57:34 i thought it was something weird like that 12:57:38 well not weird, but you know what i mean 12:57:44 unexpected 12:57:56 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-237-55.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:00:51 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:01:25 sin293 [~Administr@60.221.115.210] has joined #lisp 13:02:27 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:02:29 -!- emacs-dwim [~user@rrcs-72-43-236-2.nys.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 13:06:42 -!- sin293 [~Administr@60.221.115.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:06:50 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:11:56 Quadrescence: what is GET-CHAR? there's a CL:READ-CHAR and it's perfectly compatible with CL:READ-LINE 13:12:09 sorry I was confusing myself with C 13:12:11 that is what I meant 13:12:17 READ-CHAR 13:12:56 -!- marko-v [~user@unaffiliated/marko-v] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:13:58 Quadrescence: http://paste.lisp.org/+2ZE0 13:14:18 Notice how read-char still needs a newline, since input is buffered. 13:15:26 same with READ-CHAR-NO-HANG 13:15:43 Same. 13:15:58 The only difference, is that read-char-no-hang would return nil if no input was available. 13:17:19 http://paste.lisp.org/+2ZE0/1 13:17:45 If it was reading a file, or if you were very fast at typing RET c RET, it would read a character. 13:18:46 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.59.95] has joined #lisp 13:19:31 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.219.13] has joined #lisp 13:19:31 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.219.13] has quit [Changing host] 13:19:31 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 13:19:57 -!- ragnul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:21:26 -!- agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:21:32 kwmiebach_ [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-110-74.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:21:56 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-110-74.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:22:56 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:23:35 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 13:24:19 -!- nightfly [sage@destiny.cat.pdx.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:24:23 Quadrescence: otherwise for interactive I/O, I would advise you to use *query-io* instead of *standard-ouput* and *standard-input*. 13:24:32 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-133-48.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:24:57 yes 13:26:04 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 13:26:24 Shinmera [~linus@public-docking-pat-nw-mapped-0010.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 13:27:01 agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:15 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:27:17 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 13:28:08 Quadrescence: http://paste.lisp.org/display/139176#2 13:28:33 Oops, I forgot to add *query-io* argument to read and read-char calls. 13:29:34 -!- willyfrog [~willyfrog@146.255.102.14.gigas.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:29:51 willyfrog [~willyfrog@146.255.102.14.gigas.com] has joined #lisp 13:34:33 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:14 the_TORmentor [~the_TORme@unaffiliated/the-tormentor/x-3958522] has joined #lisp 13:38:35 nightfly [sage@destiny.cat.pdx.edu] has joined #lisp 13:39:47 axion [~axion@70.197.198.28] has joined #lisp 13:41:11 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:08 -!- breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:43:54 hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has joined #lisp 13:47:24 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 13:47:45 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 13:50:49 ManateeLazyCat [~user@61.183.179.53] has joined #lisp 13:51:57 How to expand 'rest' numbers in body? (defun test-rest (&rest numbers) (+ numbers)) 13:52:39 apply 13:52:56 ,(apply '+ (list 1 2 3)) 13:53:09 Oops, missing bot alert. 13:53:16 Isn't #'+ necessary? 13:53:29 eval bots are not welcome on #lisp, for some reason. 13:53:31 It sure is: sorry, I thought I was in #emacs 13:54:03 antoszka: not if (CL:EQ '+ (CL:QUOTE cl:+)) 13:54:49 Since one is not permited to redefine cl:+, (symbol-function '+) is always identical to (function +) 13:55:14 But for other function names, there could be lexical fbindings established with flet or labels that would make a difference. 13:55:35 Thanks. 13:55:49 ggole: I'm studying common lisp. 13:55:59 ggole: Your answer can't work. 13:56:02 That said, (apply (function +) numbers) may require one or two instruction less than (apply (quote +) numbers) to evaluate. 13:56:22 ManateeLazyCat: you're wrong, ggole's answer is perfectly good. 13:56:44 ogamita: Ok, let me try again. 13:57:42 ManateeLazyCat: Make sure you don't take the comma at the beginning (it's a bot command) 13:57:43 Try also: (defun f (x y z) 'global) (flet ((f (x y z) 'local)) (list (apply 'f '(1 2 3)) (apply #'f '(1 2 3)))) 13:57:44 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 249 seconds] 13:59:11 ogamita: I'm study keyword &rest, i wonder how to use arguments after &rest. 13:59:58 ManateeLazyCat: you "can't", since &rest takes all the remaining arguments. 14:00:26 ManateeLazyCat: but what you can do, is to parse the rest arguments, and produce some that are "after" whatever that means for you. 14:00:50 I thought you could put rest up front and still use &optional and &key arguments? 14:00:56 Or is that just for macros... 14:01:12 Eg, if you want to implement a macro such as (doing (princ "hi") (terpri) (decf i) while (plusp i)) you could write 14:01:23 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.59.95] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 14:01:57 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9D107.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:02:21 &optional then &rest works 14:02:35 I don't think you can do things the other way around with "manual" parsing. 14:02:52 (defmacro doing (&rest items) (assert (string-equal 'while (car (last items 2)))) `(tagbody loop (progn ,@(butlast items 2)) (if ,(car (last items)) (go loop)))) 14:03:20 &optional + &rest is treacherous, because when you want to pass rest arguments, you MUST pass the optional one. 14:03:34 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:36 Same as &optional + &key (&key are actually &rest arguments in even number). 14:04:00 ggole: In python, if i pass (a, b, c) to function argument 'args', so i can use *args to expand 'args' with a, b, c 14:04:21 ggole: So i wonder how to expand rest argument in lisp then pass to function '+' 14:04:21 In lisp we use apply. 14:04:25 apply allows a similar thing, but only for the last argument. 14:04:35 (apply '+ args) 14:04:45 #' 14:04:48 For other patterns, you'll have to construct a list explicitly. 14:04:54 the_TORmentor: read above. 14:05:24 ie, (apply #'+ 1 2 3 (list 4 5)) is ok 14:05:27 ggole: Thanks, i got it. (defun test-rest (&optional &rest numbers) (apply '+ numbers)) 14:05:33 But (apply #'+ 1 2 3 (list 4 5) 6) isn't. 14:05:34 But otherwise I agree, in files I write (apply (function +) args), I use '+ only at the REPL in general., 14:05:35 ggole: After add &optional, apply is work. 14:05:52 You shouldn't need &optional there? 14:06:22 ggole: After i add &optional before &rest, apply work perfectly in slime. 14:06:56 Aramur [~arare@9.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:58 (defun test (&rest nums) (apply #'+ nums)) (test 1 2 3) => 6 14:06:58 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:07:11 ManateeLazyCat: show your code http://paste.lisp.org/new 14:07:29 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 14:07:44 ahungry_ [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 14:07:51 why would you use (apply '+ args)? 14:07:59 Because it makes no difference. 14:08:13 as long as (CL:EQ '+ (CL:QUOTE CL:+)) 14:08:32 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9D107.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:08:43 ggole: What' is #' ? 14:08:43 ggole: Like some magic thing. :) 14:08:46 chenjf [~chenjf@112.90.222.158] has joined #lisp 14:08:50 check section 11.1.2.1.2 14:09:01 Yes, the magic of reader macros. 14:09:02 *ManateeLazyCat* my paste2.el can't work, long time leave emacs world. 14:09:08 ManateeLazyCat: read chapter 2. 14:09:17 It's shorthand for (function ...) 14:09:20 Which see. 14:09:22 ogamita: Thanks, reading 14:09:57 hmm it does make no difference :O 14:10:36 It makes a difference for conventions. 14:11:04 ok 14:11:52 ggole: Thanks for teaching, i'm thinking about #' , new trick. :) 14:13:09 *ManateeLazyCat* Fixing paste2.el to make it work again. 14:13:42 There have lisp bot in this channel? 14:13:47 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-239.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:14:25 Like #emacs bot ? 14:14:36 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@gw4.tieturi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:15:31 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.59.95] has joined #lisp 14:16:36 <|3b|> there is a bot, no idea if it is like #emacs bot though 14:16:38 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:16:47 -!- sz0 [~textual@92.44.62.223] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 14:19:04 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:21:19 In #emacs, bot will answer define of foo (source code or internet) when you type ,foo 14:22:31 <|3b|> you can look things up in the spec like this: 14:22:33 <|3b|> clhs + 14:22:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_pl.htm 14:23:07 <|3b|> and minion knows about some other things: 14:23:15 <|3b|> minion: tell ManateeLazyCat about minion 14:23:15 minion: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/minion 14:23:41 minion: Why don't you know about yourself? 14:23:42 you speak nonsense 14:23:53 <|3b|> (though that part doesn't currently work very well for cliki lookups like that) 14:25:07 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.59.95] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 14:25:54 setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.138] has joined #lisp 14:26:03 minion: tell ManateeLazyCat about defun 14:26:04 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``defun''. 14:26:08 minion: tell ManateeLazyCat about google 14:26:08 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``google''. 14:26:14 <|3b|> clhs defun 14:26:14 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defun.htm 14:26:36 clhs macro 14:26:36 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for macro. 14:26:41 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.138] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:26:43 clhs lambda 14:26:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_lambda.htm 14:27:02 setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.138] has joined #lisp 14:28:11 clhs #' 14:28:11 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhb.htm 14:28:40 Oh nice bot. 14:29:11 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:29:43 ltbarcly [~textual@149.11.108.26] has joined #lisp 14:29:45 anxic [6dbe5d7c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.190.93.124] has joined #lisp 14:29:49 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@149.11.108.26] has quit [Client Quit] 14:30:14 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:28 -!- agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:35:33 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-160.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:07 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@201.165.170.161] has joined #lisp 14:39:05 teggi [~teggi@113.173.4.29] has joined #lisp 14:41:24 benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:48 tesuji [~tesuji@unaffiliated/tesuji] has joined #lisp 14:45:07 Minion is misleading, when it says "No definition was found in the first 5 lines of" since it still gives the link to the cliki page with information about the subject, such as http://www.cliki.net/minion 14:45:27 Indeed, no _definition_, but some info is still available there. 14:46:04 -!- Shinmera [~linus@public-docking-pat-nw-mapped-0010.ethz.ch] has quit [Quit: bbl] 14:47:21 -!- Aramur [~arare@9.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 14:47:48 -!- bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:47:53 <|3b|> the 'definition' is probably there too, minion just can't find it due to cliki changes 14:48:33 *|3b|* wonders if a patch would have any more effect than a bug report for getting cliki fixed 14:49:16 In common lisp , how to get int range like python range(1, 10) ? 14:49:28 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:50:23 There have (1..10) return (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) ? 14:50:52 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:23 clhs range 14:51:23 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for range. 14:51:40 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 14:52:00 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-160.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:52:05 -!- eeezkil [~eeezkil@unaffiliated/eeezkil] has quit [Quit: ^D] 03:20:15 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 03:20:15 03:20:15 -!- names: ccl-logbot nisstyre DrCode dmiles quazimodo Vutral svetlyak40wt [SLB] bananagram axion effy Guest97484 ehaliewicz ManateeL` zacharias_ kpreid rootlocus FrostyX spacebat1 Denommus chu Bike prxq__ cdidd hypno sauerkrause trebor_dki sellout- ThePhoeron fe[nl]ix hpd normanrichards sttau ejohnson breakds drmeiste_ ikki ISF danielszmulewicz yano smull z0d par rotty nialo- Jubb_ chr` Ralt_ JPeterson nug700_ dRbiG wchun sirdancealo2 Praise k0001 yrk oleo Beetny 03:20:15 -!- names: bgs100 kliph Mon_Ouie yacks add^_ edgar-rft cmatei insomniaSalt Fare skalawag ASau clmsy ivan4th keen_ clop hwiersma devon`` harish_ theos knob drmeister PuffTheMagic Natch doomlord_ cpape Kruppe rvchangue aoh arbscht naryl zorkmoid igotnolegs- xan_ ZombieChicken Petit_Dejeuner ered CrazyEddy uzo weie jack_rabbit jaimef antoszka matko naeg SHODAN araujo krrrcks billstclair dlowe saysjonathan tensorpudding kirin` joshe nicdev Codynyx nightfly willyfrog 03:20:15 -!- names: ivan\ EvW guyal gusta housel Tarential BlankVerse ashish__ capisce rtoym justinmcp dan64 xristos aw|incendiary eli cantstanya s0ber tkd |nix| danlentz cohn fikusz zenoli irq0 abend nbouscal marsam Odin- Wukix` seggioo milosn eak ecraven _d3f joneshf-work hyperboreean Patzy schoppenhauer feorex_ asedeno tali713 tessier karswell BlastHardcheese surrounder jayne wormphlegm shifty subtlepath ramus rvirding j0ni finnrobi bhyde fmu____ gluegadget sigjuice 03:20:15 -!- names: expez KingNato_ cibs eagleflo Sourceless karupa64 nitro_idiot_ bege ggherdov photex madnificent minion ezakimak wyan pok Anarch ashp redline6561 vsync TristamWrk bobbysmith007 zmyrgel H4ns vnz samebchase igorw copec sontek seantallen reb` gensym PuercoPop gko sbryant oconnore dfox spacefrogg^ Zhivago gabot Posterdati vhost- macdice nullman Borbus zfx Tristam mathrick |3b| sykopomp GuilOooo Krystof pchrist cyphase s00pcan ineiros ski drdo dsp_ 03:20:15 -!- names: robot-beethoven flip214 setheus kanru Nshag Ketsuban d4gg4d_ dented42 ahungry The_third_man phadthai jdz hugod Blkt antifuchs ircbrowse guaqua cpt_nemo loke arrsim rk[imposter] sweet_kid aajmakin varjag pjb nightshade427 hiyosi robsmoniker Adeon ft mikaelj AntiSpamMeta Oddity blackwol` clog acieroid cmbntr koisoke balle gendl trigen|afk froggey aerique _schulte_ oGMo Ash gemelen cross daimrod theBlackDragon Xach easye tychoish kbtr p_l BrianRice 03:20:15 -!- names: dotemacs prip yeltzooo zbigniew mshroyer Tordek eMBee ckoch786 jsnell theGNUrk Roin joast adeht jasom deadghost_ mal____ otwieracz Neptu DrForr aeth __main__ foom Mandus sytse djinni` sjl em maxpeck fmu ivan sfa luis` Amadiro optikalmouse ozzloy ``Erik wilfredh Khisanth Guest25276 gf3 cods scharan isaacbw felideon hellome stopbit cruxeternus brucem guther lemoinem pegu quasisane specbot Watcher7 newcup tvaalen Fade strawman0f epsylon freiksenet 03:20:15 -!- names: AeroNotix mtd dim Yamazaki-kun sshirokov DollyDuplex yroeht2 kmder obre johs stokachu felipe tomaw Subfusc Cheery banjiewen sid_cypher rabite j_king jd__ galdor nuba 03:20:21 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:20:50 nope. 03:20:57 clhs macroexpand 03:20:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mexp_.htm 03:21:22 *ManateeL`* specbot like lisp wikipedia bot, like it. :0 03:21:49 the clhs is a reference. it's like the haskell standard. 03:22:30 Bike: Good to know. :) 03:22:49 PuercoPop: I just try macroexpand, it's good tool to study how macro build. 03:22:53 Thanks all. :) 03:22:55 -!- d4gg4d_ [uid7020@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qkzhqpanqzyoopqd] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:24:02 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:27:57 -!- ManateeL` [~user@59.173.241.82] has left #lisp 03:32:08 chenjf [~communi@117.136.12.182] has joined #lisp 03:34:03 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-148-192.w109-222.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:34:13 Good morning everyone. 03:37:26 hi 03:37:59 -!- axion [~axion@127.sub-70-197-192.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:40:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 03:45:55 -!- robsmoniker [uid6984@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nuuvdwhwuuouqvfz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:57:37 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 04:16:20 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:17:50 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:20:16 -!- arrsim [~user@128.250.116.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:22:29 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:37 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:24:39 -!- cibs [~cibs@60-251-40-253.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:26:35 cibs [~cibs@60-251-40-253.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:09 tertl3-laptop [~tertl3-la@75.139.64.89] has joined #lisp 04:27:42 ManateeLazyCat [~user@59.173.241.82] has joined #lisp 04:28:17 -!- ManateeLazyCat [~user@59.173.241.82] has left #lisp 04:28:36 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tsch] 04:35:38 -!- Jubb_ [~Jubb@pool-71-178-197-128.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Jubb_] 04:36:12 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-71-178-197-128.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:59 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:40:42 p_nathan [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has joined #lisp 04:45:23 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 04:45:32 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 04:48:06 *beach* had hoped there would be rookies here looking for projects, but he hasn't seen any so far. 04:48:42 -!- tertl3-laptop [~tertl3-la@75.139.64.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:48:58 beach: Not me, but curious as to the projects youre looking to staff. 04:49:16 alezost [~user@128-70-203-73.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 04:49:33 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:50:00 sellout-: This documentation project is one: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/clos-mop.html 04:50:58 sellout-: Another one would be an assembler/disassembler for x86-32 and x86-64 (but with a difference), possibly including an emulator. 04:51:15 oh, i was idly thinking about writing a disassembler. 04:51:35 Bike: It would be a nice project. 04:51:54 ... especially if the surface syntax could be programmed using (say) CLOS. 04:52:06 I'm no good with asm, though. Especially x86's weirdness. 04:52:19 Yeah, I know what you mean. 04:52:35 Is there any accepted way to abstract things? You know, so you could have the parts that identify labels or whatever the same across ISAs. 04:52:48 ASau` [~user@p5797F71E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 04:52:55 beach: will your compiler have proper delimited continuations? 04:53:00 linear ones? 04:53:03 Bike: I don't know. 04:53:23 Fare: Beyond what CL needs? No. 04:53:37 [at least not at the moment] 04:53:52 But that's just a matter of representation of stack frames. 04:54:05 If you were to allocate them on the heap, then it would be automatic. 04:54:35 zRecursive [~czsq888@110.188.69.198] has joined #lisp 04:55:10 Bike: I have been reading the Intel and AMD documentation in parallel, and things are somewhat less weird to me now. 04:55:55 -!- ASau [~user@p5797F184.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:56:36 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 04:56:44 do x86 instructions form, like, a prefix code? i was wondering about that... 04:57:36 Bike: One thing that I find strange is that it seems to be common for the compiler to emit some kind of surface syntax that then needs to be parsed by the assembler. A better solution seems to be to emit a sequence of "items" where an item can be a label, a description of an instruction, or a directive for reserving space. 05:00:39 A description of an instruction would be a class instance containing information about the operation (e.g., ADD) and the operands (e.g., "The 6th 64-bit general-purpose register" or "The 32-bit operand in memory with the following address"). 05:01:43 Isn't that slightly like sbcl's vops? 05:02:02 Not that sbcl's assembler is like... comprehensible, to me. 05:02:04 I don't know. I haven't looked into those. 05:02:50 I am not trying to suggest that the items be backend-independent, though. 05:03:13 oh good, i was going to say. 05:03:31 They would be specific to the x86-??, but they would not be represented in any particular surface syntax. 05:03:53 Hm, I guess "items" are pretty much like regular ol assembler directives + stuff, except without being tied to a syntax. 05:04:03 Exactly. 05:04:52 ... because in my experience, the choice of surface syntax seems to differ between people and systems. 05:05:06 you can say that again. 05:05:14 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 05:05:32 By doing it this way, people can choose their own syntax while still benefiting from the general machinery. 05:08:03 ... and the compiler would not have to generate any particular syntax at all; just a sequence of items, each created by MAKE-INSTANCE. 05:08:40 and then assembly is "just" serialization, sure. 05:08:50 Almost. 05:09:02 Almost? 05:09:10 I guess you couldn't do it in one pass, with labels... 05:09:13 There is the issue of choosing JUMP instructions according to the distance of the label from the instruction. 05:09:20 right, right. 05:09:20 You said it. 05:09:31 Disassembly wouldn't be serial either, of course 05:09:53 Not if you want to generate label names. 05:11:43 axion [~axion@127.sub-70-197-192.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 05:12:31 I started writing it (and I am hacking on it at the moment), but it is a nice chunk of code that could easily become an independent project of reasonable size, and a very useful one too. 05:13:07 gonna be online anywhere? 05:13:14 Already is. 05:13:23 minion: tell Bike about SICL. 05:13:23 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:13:24 Bike: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL 05:13:42 The assembler is in .../Code/Backends/x86-assembler/ 05:13:58 oh, i stopped paying attention to sicl a while ago... very nice. 05:14:18 Bike: It is nowhere near completion. 05:14:26 yes, that was one of the reasons :p 05:14:32 Right. 05:14:40 what's the status of SICL now ? 05:14:40 No reason for you to look into it yet. 05:14:54 zRecursive: Hard to say :) 05:15:10 a while back i tried implementing the CL type system. I didn't do it very well though, I keep saying I'll do it better 05:15:48 zRecursive: I have the two hardest parts: CLOS MOP and compiler, but the compiler only has a few optimizations right now. 05:16:15 Bike: What do you mean by "implementing the CL type system"? 05:16:27 beach: compile to native code ? 05:16:40 zRecursive: As soon as I have an assembler, yes :) 05:16:44 or byte code as CLISP does 05:16:48 as a CL program, I mean. having types as objects that can be parsed and deparsed from type specifiers, and functions to put them in union, etc 05:16:53 zRecursive: One day maybe. 05:16:57 program, library, whatever. it sucks anyway 05:17:17 awygle [~Andrew@50-46-110-78.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:21 Bike: I see. 05:18:01 Bike: With some kind of canonical representation, presumably? 05:18:36 Some attempt at simplification. (or t nil) => t and so on. But it's pretty tricky. 05:18:57 Bike: Yes, I know. It can't be done in general. 05:19:36 I had to use a method combination in order for subtype methods to work nicely, heh. 05:21:07 Do you mean for implementing SUBTYPEP? 05:21:26 Yeah. 05:21:41 You know about the famous paper about SUBTYPEP right? 05:21:48 baker's? 05:22:03 Wow, my memory is bad. 05:22:06 Yes, maybe so. 05:22:11 "A Decision Procedure for Common Lisp's SUBTYPEP Predicate" 05:22:19 That must be it, yes. 05:22:31 I have it somewhere in my files. 05:22:49 Pretty neat stuff. 05:24:02 I've read it but I didn't use it, since I was more interested in the intensional stuff (been reading too much tapl i guess). Maybe I should have considered it more seriously. 05:25:23 Bike: In the directory .../Code/Types/ in the SICL hierarchy, there is the beginning of an implementation of it. 05:25:32 But I haven't worked on it for what seems like ages. 05:25:58 heh, baker's "ad-hoc" implementation is basically exactly what abcl has 05:26:20 oops! :) 05:26:44 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:27:08 fenton [~fenton@ppp-124-121-34-247.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 05:27:17 wow, i definitely should have read this again. 05:27:28 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:30 It is not too late. 05:28:12 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 05:28:33 sellout-: I can probably come up with more such projects if I gave it some thought. 05:29:35 p_nathan [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has joined #lisp 05:29:52 yeah, i have definitely been inspired to hack on types again. 05:30:10 Great! 05:30:27 i'll uh, inform you if that's ever non-vaporware, i suppose. 05:30:35 Sure. 05:30:55 I would be interested in any incremental progress too. 05:34:14 d4gg4d_ [uid7020@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-huzqtibuwcrolncl] has joined #lisp 05:36:27 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:37:10 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 05:37:41 mindCrime [~prhodes@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:51:48 sdemarre [~serge@142.191-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 05:52:19 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:55:42 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:01 seangrov` [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:39 -!- fenton [~fenton@ppp-124-121-34-247.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:02:42 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping 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11:00:33 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-171-48-37.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:01:43 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@140.Red-79-151-209.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 11:02:29 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:06:38 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:08:19 cachem0ney [~cachem0ne@l33t.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 11:08:57 I would like a clean idiom to do copy on update with my defstructs. Any suggestions? 11:10:05 -!- chenjf [~communi@58.254.168.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:14:24 munge [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:19:07 -!- gusta [~user@c7F7CBF51.dhcp.as2116.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:19:18 gusta [~user@c7F7CBF51.dhcp.as2116.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:40 -!- optikalmouse [~optikalmo@207-245-237-147.dedicated.allstream.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:20:22 optikalmouse [~optikalmo@207-245-237-147.dedicated.allstream.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:12 (copy-my-structure object :frob new-frob :quux new-quux) 11:22:15 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:22:15 sdemarre [~serge@142.191-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 11:24:37 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 11:25:25 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:35:40 zRecursive [~czsq888@171.213.20.168] has joined #lisp 11:37:25 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-210-183.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:39:07 l_ [~logicomix@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 11:40:01 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.187.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:41:19 -!- l_ [~logicomix@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 11:42:17 adeht, The automatically defined copier function is a function of one argument, which must be of the structure type being defined. " 11:43:52 -!- munge [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:48:15 -!- gusta [~user@c7F7CBF51.dhcp.as2116.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:48:26 gusta [~user@c7F7CBF51.dhcp.as2116.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:24 cachem0ney: I don't know of any prebuild solutions for something like that 11:53:54 I see. 11:56:48 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:57:29 -!- krfantasy [~krfantasy@li528-20.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 11:57:40 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 12:00:32 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:47 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 12:00:51 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:55 cachem0ney: didn't refer to the copier function.. a generic protocol for this problem requires some thought about issues like initarg->effect (needn't be simple assignment to slot values) and "no direct access to slots" (w/ defstructs) 12:01:07 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-14-77.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 12:01:30 LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-124-231.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:17 -!- sdemarre [~serge@142.191-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:04:19 [SLB]` [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 12:07:27 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:07:28 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 12:08:14 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 12:13:01 Xach, seems weird to me that there isn't a standard way to update a structure without mutating. 12:14:01 p_nathan [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has joined #lisp 12:14:23 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-148-192.w109-222.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:16:00 cachem0ney: no, you have to add the infrastructure to make a new instance. 12:16:33 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-229-172.w83-193.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:18:04 I see; but why not have the defstruct macro give you the ability to do copy on update so immutability is right out of the box? 12:18:13 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:27:47 It's hard to answer questions like that. There can be a huge variety of reasons. 12:28:03 One possible answer is that it is not how defstruct is specified 12:28:29 -!- gusta [~user@c7F7CBF51.dhcp.as2116.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:29:44 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:29:58 gusta [~user@c7F7CBF51.dhcp.as2116.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:27 CrLF0710 [~user@60.10.69.15] has joined #lisp 12:31:30 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@171.213.20.168] has left #lisp 12:31:39 -!- CrLF0710 [~user@60.10.69.15] has left #lisp 12:32:51 -!- gusta [~user@c7F7CBF51.dhcp.as2116.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:34:06 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:40:15 arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 12:46:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-28-8.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:47:31 -!- Beetny 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[~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:03:46 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 14:03:53 hi 14:03:56 benny [~user@i577A874A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:04:53 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:06:46 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p5499D6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:07:15 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:09:15 hugoduncan [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279563839.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:09:27 Hello Denommus 14:11:06 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279563839.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:11:09 mc40 [~mc@146.255.107.98] has joined #lisp 14:14:16 -!- mc40 [~mc@146.255.107.98] has quit [Client Quit] 14:20:35 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:22:17 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 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joined #lisp 15:07:35 -!- tertl3-laptop2 [~tertl3-la@75.139.64.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:10:36 Hi, is there a way to somehow pass pointer to something similar to array to C function with CFFI? In my case i want to pass array of plists(works fine with passing single plist as strcut vaule to C function). 15:11:41 an array of plists doesn't make much sense in C 15:11:55 -!- mc40 [~mc@146.255.107.98] has quit [Quit: mc40] 15:12:08 stassats`: actually... I think there were plists in AmigaOS ABI 15:12:58 right, okay 15:13:05 Okasu: please, consider using AmigaOS 15:13:18 lol 15:13:39 normanrichards [~normanric@63.98.50.138] has joined #lisp 15:13:48 stassats`: Why? CFFI converts single plist into struct passed by value, why can't it do same thing with array of plists? 15:14:07 Okasu: I don't think you can pass an array of structs by value 15:14:09 you want an array of structures? 15:14:33 p_l: >pass pointer to 15:14:38 stassats`: Yep. 15:15:13 Okasu: put a loop that allocates structures on C-accessible heap using data from plists, then pass an array of references to those structures... 15:15:31 then just use (with-foreign-object (array your-struct-type length) ...) 15:15:53 that's if you want stack allocation, otherwise, foreign-alloc 15:16:11 p_l, stassats`, thanks. 15:17:10 k0001 [~k0001@181.110.66.21] has joined #lisp 15:18:02 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Quit: going to lunch] 15:20:56 Greetings. 15:20:56 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:21:41 masondesu [~textual@adsl-98-71-137-17.gsp.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:46 hello hitecnologys 15:22:10 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.64.222.94] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 15:22:21 I'm just curious, are there any libraries that implement something similar to ASDF? 15:23:32 mk-defsystem? 15:24:18 and that wouldn't be "libraries" 15:26:08 Yeah I know, I just don't know how to call that if not "libraries". Sorry for that inconvenience. What is the correct name for such things? 15:26:43 program? application? enterprise solution? 15:27:09 Hm. 15:27:19 OK, thanks. 15:27:42 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@63.98.50.138] has quit [] 15:29:00 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:48 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:36:51 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@5.144.63.191] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 15:37:02 G70817 [~user@189.62.37.227] has joined #lisp 15:37:55 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@5.144.63.191] has joined #lisp 15:42:22 scharan [~scharan@caps04.cs.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 15:45:01 hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has joined #lisp 15:47:30 -!- k0001 [~k0001@181.110.66.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:48:44 k0001 [~k0001@host231.190-138-108.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:51:11 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:56:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:00:17 setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.138] has joined #lisp 16:00:18 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:00:39 setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.138] has joined #lisp 16:00:51 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:01:11 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:fe40:3ea9:f4ff:fe31:5798] has joined #lisp 16:01:21 kushal [~kdas@114.143.163.99] has joined #lisp 16:01:25 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.163.99] has quit [Changing host] 16:01:25 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:02:42 -!- G70817 [~user@189.62.37.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07:20 -!- ckoch786 [~cory@107-219-7-73.lightspeed.toldoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:08:36 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Changing host] 16:08:36 aoh [~aki@unaffiliated/aoh] has joined #lisp 16:11:07 chenjf [~communi@58.254.168.54] has joined #lisp 16:14:35 -!- chenjf [~communi@58.254.168.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:17:21 I need some help with testing of another crap I wrote. 16:17:50 -!- octet8 [~klogd_@59.174.84.218] has quit [] 16:18:18 Here is the code if someone wants to try: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/Providing. 16:20:00 ckoch786 [~cory@107-219-7-73.lightspeed.toldoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:21 -!- sdemarre [~serge@142.191-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:22:06 s/I wrote/that I wrote/ 16:24:09 it's correct both ways 16:25:26 Ah, fine. 16:26:42 and some will prefer the former in most cases 16:27:05 but even if it weren't correct, there's no need to correct every typo/mistake, unless it hampers understanding 16:27:57 OK, got it. 16:28:38 I need to get rid of this nasty habit to correct everything. 16:30:44 francogrex [~user@25.160-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 16:30:50 hitecnologys: "[:requrie (:feature feature-name) | (:plugin plugin-name) | plugin-name]..." 16:30:56 >requrie 16:31:01 In readme. 16:31:09 :D 16:31:57 p_nathan [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has joined #lisp 16:32:19 Okasu: ah, damn. Thanks, fixed that. 16:32:56 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-105.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:34:09 Is the syntax understandable? 16:34:41 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 16:39:35 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:40:01 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-203-73.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:40:04 why is (setf my-list '(1 2 3)) (dolist (n (length my-list) (pop my-list))) => 1 ? 16:40:29 <|3b|> why wouldn't it be? 16:40:34 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:40:37 oleo: because (dolist (var list &optional return) body...) 16:40:38 <|3b|> clhs dolist 16:40:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_dolist.htm 16:40:40 alezost [~user@128-70-203-73.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 16:40:47 as apposed to which other result? did you expect NIL? 16:40:52 ups sorry not dolist its dotimes 16:41:05 why is (setf my-list '(1 2 3)) (dotimes (n (length my-list) (pop my-list))) => 1 ? 16:41:31 what do you want to do? 16:41:34 i expected it to eval the result-form 3 times 16:41:43 Because the binding to my-list is not modified by doing nothing 3 times 16:41:48 oleo: Because the return form only gets evaluated after the loop is finished. 16:41:52 oleo: that would be silly, wouldn't it? 16:42:07 How can you return 3 times without continuations? 16:42:13 and using dotimes to iterate over a list is not the brightest idea either 16:42:22 ya ok maybe 16:42:57 On the other hand, (let ((my-list '(1 2 3))) (dotimes (n (length my-list) my-list) (pop my-list))) -> nil 16:43:05 ah 16:43:27 dotimes takes body forms. 16:43:56 now i see 16:44:20 nipra [~nipra@122.177.86.9] has joined #lisp 16:45:19 oleo: And what is the result you are hoping for? 16:45:56 NIL, '(1 2 3) and (values 1 2 3) all seem possible. 16:46:12 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:51 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:48:12 arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 16:49:37 pjb: (list 1 2 3) would be better. (am I right?) 16:50:00 hitecnologys: no 16:50:07 stassats`: why? 16:50:08 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:50:09 pop doesn't do any destructive modification 16:51:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-28-8.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:51:12 Well, it can: but not when applied to a variable. 16:51:59 Ah, fine. 16:56:18 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:03 -!- Posterdati [~kvirc@host103-221-dynamic.21-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:00:50 Posterdati [~kvirc@host103-221-dynamic.21-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:02:56 -!- francogrex [~user@25.160-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:03:34 -!- masondesu [~textual@adsl-98-71-137-17.gsp.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:06:47 -!- Munksgaard 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timeout: 256 seconds] 17:46:46 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 17:47:21 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 17:47:26 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-140-82.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:24 uzo [~uzo@99.103.189.64] has joined #lisp 17:54:27 Posterdati [~kvirc@host103-221-dynamic.21-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:55:26 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:fe40:3ea9:f4ff:fe31:5798] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:55:43 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 18:05:02 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.86.9] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:05:08 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 18:05:45 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:06:02 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:06:08 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:08:09 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:08:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-28-8.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:12:36 Aramur [~arare@9.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:31 Hmm. Guess I can't edit the topic anymore. Oh well. 18:13:55 the sbcl cabal usurped the topic 18:15:12 Nothing else matters, right? 18:15:50 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:16:16 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:00 hmmm 18:19:08 rtoym: what do you need in the topic? 18:19:32 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.165.170.161] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:19:37 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o p_l 18:19:41 -!- p_l has set mode -t 18:19:49 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o p_l 18:19:57 rtoym: actually, try now 18:20:19 ikki [~ikki@201.165.170.161] has joined #lisp 18:27:19 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-54-229-115.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:31:42 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-158-220-83.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:31:48 K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has joined #lisp 18:32:28 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:33:33 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-140-82.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:36:43 p_nathan [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has joined #lisp 18:36:59 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: brb] 18:37:20 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 18:39:46 -!- peterhil- [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c0fc-28.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:41:10 Hey Lisp folks. 18:43:40 hi K1rk 18:43:50 I feel like I'm making a simple beginner mistake right now. 18:44:11 K1rk: Why? 18:44:13 I've got this lisp function here. 18:44:14 http://paste.ubuntu.com/6168120/ 18:44:35 I'm trying to remove that unused third argument. But if I take it out, and I run the function without that last 0, I get an error about too many arguments. 18:44:58 I want the function to take the first 2 arguments, I have no more need for the third one, but I can't get it out... 18:45:08 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:45:13 K1rk: Use &optional. 18:45:22 you can start by removing it from the recursive calls 18:45:34 stassats`: where am I using it? 18:45:35 and then from the outermost call 18:45:42 I don't see anywhere that the third argument is being used 18:46:03 Oh! 18:46:06 heh 18:46:06 I see where I'm using it..... 18:46:19 mrSpec [~Spec@85.219.172.50] has joined #lisp 18:46:19 and get rid of camelcase 18:46:21 two branches using it 18:46:26 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@85.219.172.50] has quit [Changing host] 18:46:26 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:46:33 and special variable names should be wrapped in ** 18:46:59 -!- DrForr_ is now known as DrForr 18:47:00 K1rk: and global variable should NOT be used at all! 18:47:27 not "at all", just in this function 18:47:55 I should use setq instead of defvar then? 18:48:13 K1rk: don't use a global variable. 18:48:53 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host231.190-138-108.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:49:04 First, it should be named count-occurences, since it counts the occurences of the first argument in the second argument. 18:49:08 and for some reason you have two duplicated CONDs 18:49:11 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49:24 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:50:19 K1rk: then, (count-occurences x l) = (+ (if (eql x (car l)) 1 0) (count-occurences x (cdr l))) so you don't need to increment any variable. 18:51:10 that doesn't look like it will terminate 18:51:34 Of course, it's not the base case, don't be silly! 18:52:03 do you expect K1rk to understand it? 18:52:27 I expect him to learn. 18:52:29 and it also isn't a tail call 18:53:11 It does terminate. 18:53:18 It also is functional. 18:53:25 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:53:40 ISF [~ivan@187.64.222.94] has joined #lisp 18:53:45 that third argument was there for a reason, to accumulate the result 18:54:43 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:57:09 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:32 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-54-229-115.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:58:20 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:26 Hmm, actually it might not work right... 19:00:08 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:00:25 zacharias_ [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 19:00:35 (defun count-occurences (x l) (if (endp l) 0 (+ (if (eql x (car l)) 1 0) (count-occurences x (cdr l))))) 19:00:39 works perfectly. 19:00:47 Until the stack overflows. 19:01:17 Enub [~Enub@h-31-210.a159.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 19:01:33 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-225-54.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:01:49 (defun count-occurences (x l &optional (c 0)) (if (endp l) c (count-occurences x (cdr l) (+ c (if (eql x (car l)) 1 0))))) 19:01:52 works too. 19:02:19 but since it's tail recursive, TCO can be applied to it, and stack overflows may be avoided. If you have a compiler that does TCO. 19:02:31 works perfectly until it doesn't 19:02:37 optional parameters are slower, an internal labels would do a better job 19:02:48 sabra [~sabra@67.174.222.215] has joined #lisp 19:03:02 stassats`: do you expect K1rk to understand it? right away? 19:03:03 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:03:08 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:03:10 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-252.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:03:41 mindCrime [~prhodes@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:03:56 you sure do seem to have mastered the copy and paste functionality 19:03:59 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:04:07 I do :-) 19:04:21 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-130-237.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:47 how do you make the processor load get not high as 100% when running a function ? 19:05:01 can you delay it somehow ? 19:05:05 clhs sleep 19:05:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sleep.htm 19:05:10 ah 19:05:15 oh! 19:05:27 Internal labels? 19:05:33 What the hell is this? 19:05:33 clhs labels 19:05:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 19:05:38 Ah/ 19:05:50 fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:05:53 LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-124-231.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:08 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:06:10 sdemarre [~serge@142.191-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:06:50 cool 19:07:09 K1rk: of course, an interative solution doesn't depend on compiler optimizations to avoid crashes: (defun count-occurences (x l) (loop for e in l when (eql x e) sum 1)) 19:07:28 (count 1 list) 19:07:41 stassats`: library user! 19:09:00 -!- zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 19:10:09 -!- ezakimak [~nick@72.250.219.55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13:21 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@5.144.63.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:15:51 ykm [~ykm@38.snat-111-91-51.hns.net.in] has joined #lisp 19:18:31 sellout- [~Adium@c-71-56-237-72.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:41 -!- awygle [~Andrew@50-46-110-78.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:20:01 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:03 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 19:25:31 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 19:26:00 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.59.92] has joined #lisp 19:27:33 Good night everyone. 19:27:51 (or good morning, whatever) 19:27:53 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.60.50] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 19:31:04 -!- ykm [~ykm@38.snat-111-91-51.hns.net.in] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:31:25 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 19:31:41 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:35:47 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:37:40 k0001 [~k0001@host134.181-1-163.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:39:17 oudeis [~oudeis@2.54.229.194] has joined #lisp 19:44:17 -!- ggole [~ggole@124-169-253-228.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 19:44:19 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-252-225.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:44:52 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-180-21.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:50:53 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: brb] 19:51:46 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.59.92] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 19:52:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-252.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55:23 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 19:55:24 stassats: I have a run-program that works on ECL, and always returns the exit-code 19:56:00 yes, i have seen the mail 19:56:28 actually, had to push a fix right now to initialize *stderr* & co. properly 19:56:31 (i actually don't use neither ECL, nor uoip:run-program) 19:56:45 what were you doing that day with ECL? 19:56:53 showing you bugs! 19:57:53 anyway (uiop:run-program "echo ok ; echo bar >& 2 ; exit 42" :output '(:string :stripped t) :error-output :line :ignore-error-status t) ==> "ok" "bar" 42 19:58:09 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:58:17 and it works on ECL in SLIME. 19:58:37 well, thanks for finding the bug. 19:58:44 good, i guess 19:59:26 anyway (uiop:run-program "cat ; echo bar >& 2 ; exit 42" :input '("ok") :output '(:string :stripped t) :error-output :line :ignore-error-status t) ==> "ok" "bar" 42 20:00:35 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host134.181-1-163.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:01:43 as a side-effect of the refactoring, not only is uiop:run-program more useful, it also provides a more usable interface to the run-program's of various implementations. 20:02:00 even without :wait t 20:03:33 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@2.54.229.194] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:03:53 sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.110.227] has joined #lisp 20:05:12 oudeis [~oudeis@2.54.229.194] has joined #lisp 20:05:30 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:10:57 masondesu [~textual@adsl-98-71-134-138.gsp.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:43 mc40 [~mc@146.255.107.98] has joined #lisp 20:13:34 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@2.54.229.194] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:18:00 awygle [~Andrew@50-46-110-78.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:52 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:21:03 foeniks [~fevon@p57B4B431.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:21:41 -!- sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.110.227] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:23:20 mindCrime [~prhodes@ip-64-134-184-5.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:27 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-239-228.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:08 Fare: nice job about open sourcing quux. some interesting stuff in there, thanks! 20:26:48 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-201-182.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:27:04 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:30:28 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:33:48 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:fe40:3ea9:f4ff:fe31:5798] has joined #lisp 20:35:29 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:35:51 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p57B4B431.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:36:01 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-13-105.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:14 foeniks [~fevon@p57B4B431.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:39:50 k0001 [~k0001@host134.181-1-163.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:41:23 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:41:29 p_nathan [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has joined #lisp 20:42:17 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 20:42:56 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 20:46:39 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:46:41 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:49:18 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 20:49:54 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:50:35 -!- CrLF0710 [~user@60.10.69.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:50:49 -!- mc40 [~mc@146.255.107.98] has quit [Quit: mc40] 20:54:44 oudeis [~oudeis@2.55.112.42] has joined #lisp 20:54:49 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:55:09 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 21:01:14 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p57B4B431.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:06:31 H4ns, glad you like it. If you take some bits away from it, don't forget to announce it in qitab-devel! 21:07:10 also, I'm trying to have UIOP become a new de facto standard for portability libraries, as opposed to CL-FAD, TRIVIAL-BACKTRACE, etc. 21:07:18 foeniks [~fevon@p57B4B431.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:07:37 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:12:23 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@2.55.112.42] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:12:36 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:32 but there's room for a quux-utilities, for things not so basic as needing to be in UIOP, and not so universally accepted as to be in ALEXANDRIA. 21:13:55 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-203-73.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:15:47 joe9 [~user@ip70-179-153-227.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:52 -!- awygle [~Andrew@50-46-110-78.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:28:30 dbm0 [~ase@ip56583baa.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 21:28:41 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p57B4B431.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:29:00 -!- Enub [~Enub@h-31-210.a159.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:29:22 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-229-172.w83-193.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:34:26 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 21:38:30 bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-109-192-208-037.hsi6.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 21:40:25 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:40:58 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has joined #lisp 21:42:28 Hi, I'm trying to call gcc from sbcl like so: (sb-ext:run-program "/usr/bin/gcc" (list "-o" target source) :output gcc-out :environment '("LANG=C")))) Without LANG=C my swank dies because of unicode chars when formatting gcc-output. With LANG=C the linker can't be found and gcc prints: "collect2: cannot find 'ld'" This probably means that sbcl overwrites other environment variables like PATH. How do I keep those 21:42:28 while setting LANG=C? 21:43:06 :environment is the whole environment 21:43:25 :environment (cons "LANG=C" (sb-ext:posix-environ)) 21:43:29 gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-28-180.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:37 or just resolve your unicode issues 21:44:52 That works perfectly, thank you :) 21:51:26 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-28-8.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:26 -!- Posterdati [~kvirc@host103-221-dynamic.21-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 21:56:01 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.13.180] has joined #lisp 21:57:06 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exit IRC] 21:58:06 peterhil- [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c0fc-28.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 21:59:21 Posterdati [~kvirc@host103-221-dynamic.21-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:59:54 danielszmulewi-1 [~danielszm@109.226.13.229] has 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[~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:13:38 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:46 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:16:48 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@ip-64-134-184-5.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:17:49 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:17:56 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:06 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-140-82.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:20:43 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:20 Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has joined #lisp 01:22:48 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-140-82.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:58 mindCrime [~prhodes@ip-64-134-184-5.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:54 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@ip-64-134-184-5.public.wayport.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:27:36 mindCrime [~prhodes@ip-64-134-184-5.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:03 -!- conwayJE [44528d47@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.82.141.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:39:02 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 01:41:52 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-140-82.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:42:03 CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has joined #lisp 01:42:37 I don't think this is possible but figured I would ask. Is there some way to achieve what ruby has with refinements? I would love to have dynamic variable-ish scope way to override a method from a library. http://rkh.im/ruby-2.1 01:43:23 Right now i fork the library and put into local-projects and override the method that way. 01:47:27 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:47:43 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-168-199-120.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:51:19 ikki [~ikki@187.208.243.246] has joined #lisp 01:57:20 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.208.243.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:00:27 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:02:18 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:59 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:04:04 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:07 -!- bg_ [~bg@99-119-197-219.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:11:17 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-140-82.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:10 the_well [~user@c-71-226-45-121.hsd1.az.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:22 john234 [~damian@76.127.202.17] has joined #lisp 02:16:32 Hello all, I have a noob question about how to save the return value of a defun into a setq variable 02:18:26 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:19:37 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 02:20:40 -!- the_well [~user@c-71-226-45-121.hsd1.az.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:21:10 Hello all, I have a noob question about how to save the return value of a defun into a setq variable 02:21:19 teggi [~teggi@113.173.4.29] has joined #lisp 02:21:36 the_well [~user@c-71-226-45-121.hsd1.az.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:58 (let ((var1 (func1 ...)))) ? 02:22:04 beaumonta [~abeaumont@77.231.255.77] has joined #lisp 02:22:45 (setf var1 (func1 ...)) ,etc. 02:22:51 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:23:49 ok, i did that, then how do I return a variable in a function, here is my function: (defun get_str_letters (loc size lastPos) 02:23:49 "Returns a string composed of (loc) to (+ loc 4)" 02:23:49 (if (> lastPos (+ loc size)) 02:23:49 (progn 02:23:49 (message "YEEE") 02:23:51 (setq myStr (buffer-substring loc (+ loc size))) 02:23:53 myStr) 02:23:55 ;;else 02:23:57 (progn 02:23:59 (message "NOPE") 02:24:01 nil) 02:24:03 ) 02:24:05 ) 02:24:11 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@77.231.255.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:24:48 -!- john234 [~damian@76.127.202.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:24:59 eaumontab [~abeaumont@77.231.225.106] has joined #lisp 02:26:00 (defun foo () (... varBar)) varBar will be returned ? 02:26:05 john234 [~damian@c-76-127-202-17.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:13 -!- beaumonta [~abeaumont@77.231.255.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:27:31 wooh pastie 02:28:11 yes, i am faily new to using lisp and i want to use that function to return a string or nil and set that to a variable in a different function 02:30:52 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 02:31:12 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:31:36 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.13.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:31:41 -!- john234 [~damian@c-76-127-202-17.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:33:09 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:34:31 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 02:36:14 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 02:46:51 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@ip-64-134-184-5.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:47:05 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:fe40:3ea9:f4ff:fe31:5798] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:48:17 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:48:53 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 02:49:28 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:52:30 -!- the_well [~user@c-71-226-45-121.hsd1.az.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:53:30 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 02:55:51 p_nathan1 [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has joined #lisp 03:01:08 -!- benny [~user@i577A874A.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:03:23 -!- p_nathan1 [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:05:27 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.9] has joined #lisp 03:06:15 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:09:55 urandom_1 [~user@p548A0D52.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:13:39 mindCrime [~prhodes@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:13:43 -!- urandom__ [~user@p54B0E2D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:17:11 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-124-231.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:22:28 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:23:13 -!- cpape [~user@cpape.eu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:23:13 cpape [~user@cpape.eu] has joined #lisp 03:24:28 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 03:25:56 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-229-172.w83-193.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:26:05 Good morning everyone. 03:26:26 beach: hello! 03:26:38 Oh, hi arbscht. 03:26:44 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.140.111] has joined #lisp 03:26:44 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.140.111] has quit [Changing host] 03:26:44 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 03:26:44 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 03:26:53 Still around, huh? 03:26:58 sure :) 03:27:11 cpape` [~user@cpape.eu] has joined #lisp 03:27:17 urandom__ [~user@p548A0D52.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:27:26 beach: how are things? 03:27:35 Fine. And you? 03:28:30 also good, pleased to be hacking professionally now 03:28:42 Where on this planet? 03:28:50 still in Auckland 03:28:53 epsylon` [~epsylon@2a00:dcc0:eda:98:216:3cff:fea1:ce4] has joined #lisp 03:28:55 Nice. 03:29:05 clop2 [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 03:29:08 Are you able to use Lisp in your work? 03:29:12 -!- masondesu [~textual@adsl-98-71-134-138.gsp.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:29:13 -!- joast [~rick@cpe-24-160-56-92.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:29:13 -!- newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:29:13 -!- keen_ [~blackened@pd2ae28b5.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:29:13 -!- epsylon [~epsylon@abbaye.thele.me] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:29:13 -!- urandom_1 [~user@p548A0D52.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:29:14 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:29:14 -!- clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:29:14 -!- cpape [~user@cpape.eu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:29:20 keen_ [~blackened@pd2ae28b5.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:29:30 masondesu [~textual@adsl-98-71-134-138.gsp.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:36 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 03:29:45 sure, we use Clojure in production, but I have several projects in CL for development tooling 03:29:58 Excellent! 03:30:20 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:33:38 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:04 Are you working on any freely-available stuff? 03:38:05 beach: some things from the day-job will be published soon (when we get around to it...). haven't coded much else lately, however 03:39:03 OK. 03:41:29 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: hoot] 03:43:39 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.13.59] has joined #lisp 03:45:25 danielszmulewi-1 [~danielszm@109.226.59.189] has joined #lisp 03:47:56 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.13.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:48:25 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:06 what do schemers call their equivalent of prog1? Do they have one? 03:52:56 (let ((result first-expression)) other-expressions result) 03:53:01 I guess. 03:53:39 so they don't have a similar construct? That's surprising. 03:53:41 prog1 is so useful~ 03:53:43 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 03:53:56 when do you use it? 03:54:12 very very very often when you have side-effects. 03:54:18 well, they have define-syntax to define it as a "macro". 03:54:24 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A0D52.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 03:54:36 pjb: I was actually asking to see what an alternative name could be. 03:54:43 kinda like their 'progn' is called 'begin' 03:54:53 But yes, scheme is like C++: you have to start by implementing your own language before you can start programming your application. 03:55:05 There's no begin1. 03:58:11 axion [~axion@127.sub-70-197-192.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 04:06:38 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:24:17 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:56 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit 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[xiaorong@2001:250:4809:f1:ec4d:fcda:4e57:a5c7] has joined #lisp 08:44:52 -!- xiaorong [xiaorong@2001:250:4809:f1:ec4d:fcda:4e57:a5c7] has left #lisp 08:45:31 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:46:16 Ayey_ [~rune1@2-106-141-211-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:17 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 08:47:38 -!- capisce [srodal@rs5.risingnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:48:06 -!- Fare [~fare@107.55.160.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:49:01 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 08:49:03 capisce [srodal@rs5.risingnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:15 -!- splittist [~splittist@192-39.63-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:00:50 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.86.9] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:01:40 -!- hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:04:16 MoALTz [~no@host86-142-120-85.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:04:29 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:05:37 foeniks [~fevon@p57B4B431.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:07:51 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 09:08:21 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p57B4B431.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:09:26 rswarbrick [~rswarbric@host-2-96-109-40.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:56 neoncort` [~neoncorte@187.84.195.34] has joined #lisp 09:10:17 -!- neoncort` [~neoncorte@187.84.195.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:10:50 Hi there, I'm worried this is a stupid question but... is there any difference between "(equal x 0)" and "(eql x 0)"? (We don't know the type of X in advance). I ask because SBCL seems to generate much shorter code for the 2nd, avoiding a function call to a generic equal. Am I missing something? 09:11:12 (Yes, I know the difference between EQUAL and EQL normally, but one argument is zero) 09:14:00 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:22:06 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-125.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:22:34 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-173-67-109-81.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:53 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-26-130-237.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:26:57 As far as I know they should behave the same. It could just be a missing optimisation in SBCL. 09:29:15 -!- gf3 is now known as ghetto-princess- 09:29:37 -!- ghetto-princess- is now known as sukyodick4dolla 09:29:54 -!- sukyodick4dolla is now known as gf3 09:30:09 -!- daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:19 daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 09:32:48 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-78-94-250-166.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 09:33:15 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:36:18 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-78-94-250-166.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39:05 ggole, Right, just wanted to check I wasn't going crazy! :-) 09:39:59 p_nathan1 [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has joined #lisp 09:40:22 I get similarly sized code, by the way (for a single globally-visible call like (defun test1 (x) (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0))) (equal x 0))) 09:43:26 Hmm. I hadn't tried playing with optimisation settings. I'll try it now. 09:47:16 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-78-94-250-166.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 09:47:17 -!- p_nathan1 [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:47:34 ggole, The code I was playing with is at http://paste.lisp.org/display/139216. I'll try to reproduce the effect with code that doesn't call out to other functions. 09:48:19 what was the question? the log bots died out 09:49:42 (eql val 0) vs (equal val 0)? it's exactly the same 09:50:38 your sbcl must be just old 09:51:08 stassats`, Well, it's 1.1.11, I think. See the generated code at http://paste.lisp.org/display/139216 09:51:39 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.173.4.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:51:48 ("1.1.11.debian", according to the startup banner) 09:52:00 that's old 09:52:13 Two months... 09:52:41 -!- sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:52:41 So if I recompile this code with SBCL from their git master, I should expect this to be fixed? 09:52:48 yes 09:52:53 I have whatever sbcl debian gave me: SBCL 1.0.40.0.debian 09:53:17 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-198-83-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 09:53:24 stassats`, That's cool. Has there been a round of optimisation work recently then? 09:53:30 yes 09:53:39 I get considerably worse code btw 09:53:46 So there's progress. 09:54:15 arnsa [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:55:20 stassats`, Also, (since you will know!) I spent a while looking at some other code that was generated and sent a mail to the sbcl users list yesterday about SBCL reloading a special variable. I'll paste a link to the post in a sec. Do you believe that this behaviour should also have improved? 09:55:21 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:55:23 Fare [~fare@c-67-186-132-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:38 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.general/3729 09:55:43 rswarbrick: what happens when another thread modifies it? 09:55:46 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 09:55:48 makes it unbound? 09:55:54 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 09:56:39 stassats`, Ah, that makes sense. Maxima assumes single-threadedness (I suspect it would break horribly otherwise), and I wasn't thinking. I'll store the value in a let form. Thanks 09:57:12 (Incidentally, what's the word for doing that? In C, I'd say "shove it on the stack". Is there an equivalent terminology in Lisp?) 09:57:17 and don't expect generated code to look anything close to optimal, SBCL is really simple minded in that regard 09:58:15 In my day job I've been hand-coding assembly for a VLIW architecture. The C compiler is based on GCC and mostly competent, but occasionally the generated code is hilariously bad... 09:58:17 loop hoisting? 09:58:25 "Loop-invariant code motion" 09:58:55 Ah, I hadn't heard that phrase before. Shall read further. 10:00:36 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:00:45 While I have someone knowledgeable at hand, two more questions. (1) Is the description of the calling convention in the SBCL internals wiki up to date? I squinted at some code for ages yesterday and it didn't look like it was using the described registers, but I might have just been being dopey. 10:00:54 -!- Guest71987 [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-173-128.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:01:23 internals wiki? isn't it dead? 10:01:36 stassats`: Correct me if I am wrong, but in this case, since there is no function call between the two occurrences, it would be legitimate to cache the value right? 10:01:47 rswarbrick: try http://www.sbcl.org/sbcl-internals/ 10:02:01 beach, No, because another thread might stomp on it in the meantime 10:02:22 rswarbrick: but you can not assume any particular relative timing between threads. 10:02:24 stassats`, Ah, I'm out of date with my terminology - that's the document I meant 10:02:26 beach: threads don't let you do it, and even if you make it single-threaded, an interrupt may do it 10:02:42 there's no win with threads/signals 10:02:51 beach, Yes, that's kind of what I said. 10:03:19 rswarbrick: So if you always get the first value, this means that the current thread is always very fast. 10:03:34 beach: you may be expected to use the loop and a special variable for synchronization 10:03:59 rswarbrick: yes, that description should be still good 10:04:29 beach, I'm very confused by what you're writing. My original question was why we couldn't cache the value of a special. stassats` pointed out that it might get modified under our feet if another thread executed in the meantime. What are you talking about? 10:04:39 stassats`, Right, I'll look again and think harder :-) 10:05:22 gusta`` [~user@c7F7CBF51.dhcp.as2116.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:28 it describes x86 only 10:05:44 Yep. I'm on x86 though, so that should be fine 10:05:57 stassats`: I need to think about the consequences of synchronization. 10:06:15 but x86-64 uses the same registers 10:06:50 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-14-77.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:07:09 stassats`, Does that mean that 64-bit numbers are all treated as bignums and boxed? Otherwise, I'd expect to see "rax" and co. appear... 10:07:30 (Or maybe I mean 62-bit, assuming that two bits are used for tagging as in the 30-bit fixnum case) 10:07:54 on 64-bit, only one bit is used for tagging fixnums 10:08:21 what do you mean about RAX appearing? 10:08:23 Sorry, my question then should have been "One bit out of 32 or out of 64?" 10:08:36 out of 64, naturally 10:08:45 foeniks [~fevon@p57B4B265.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:09:30 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-173-128.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:09:49 I meant that the 64 bit registers have different names from the 32 bit registers on x86-64 (right?), so I would expect slight changes to the description of the calling convention. First three args passed in RDX etc. But I guess what you're saying is that, modulo that obvious change, the calling convention is the same? 10:09:54 -!- oleo is now known as Guest81137 10:10:21 they have the same names 10:10:22 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p57B4B265.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:10:25 just different prefixes 10:11:13 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 10:11:16 Ok, I think we're talking past each other. I think I understand you now, thank you. Off to make coffee... 10:12:14 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:14:44 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 10:15:01 -!- Fare [~fare@c-67-186-132-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:16:50 -!- Guest81137 is now known as oleo 10:16:59 (and suffixes, their real names are A,B,C,D, back from 8008 days) 10:20:20 stassats`: So, if two consecutive accesses are not in a loop, there is a possible scenario where the second access yields the same value, in which case it would be valid to cache the result of the first access? 10:21:02 [interesting stuff by the way] 10:21:06 marko-v [~user@cable-24-135-72-84.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 10:21:06 -!- marko-v [~user@cable-24-135-72-84.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Changing host] 10:21:06 marko-v [~user@unaffiliated/marko-v] has joined #lisp 10:24:21 anything can happen, and the compiler can't know what's intended or not 10:24:46 Hmm. 10:24:58 I'll think about it some more. 10:24:59 for example, (loop until (zerop *stop*) ...) 10:25:27 Yes, I think I understand that case. 10:25:41 -!- Ayey_ [~rune1@2-106-141-211-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:27:56 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: happening finished into permanent failure] 10:28:21 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:28:50 foeniks [~fevon@p57B4B265.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:30:28 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.59.189] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 10:31:07 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:31:10 interrupt safety/thread safety needs a lot of thought 10:31:22 Definitely! 10:31:42 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:31:55 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 10:32:10 and sbcl uses signals (by default) to stop the world before GCing, so, adding GC safety 10:32:28 so that the state interrupted in the middle doesn't confuse the GC 10:32:58 SBCL can now be built with safepoints, which avoids that 10:32:58 I see. Yes, that will certainly influence what can be optimized. 10:33:17 and safepoints are used by default on windows 10:33:26 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p57B4B265.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:34:16 foeniks [~fevon@p57B4B265.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:36:23 nipra [~nipra@122.177.86.9] has joined #lisp 10:37:03 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:43:16 zRecursive [~czsq888@110.185.18.45] has joined #lisp 10:46:05 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p57B4B265.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:47:50 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-198-83-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:47:54 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:50:04 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:50:54 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:dc44:76d6:e2ef:a3fb] has joined #lisp 10:51:51 Ayey_ 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wobh [~user@75-175-35-171.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:36 wobh` [~user@75-175-35-171.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:14 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p57B4B265.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:11:00 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:48 -!- wobh [~user@75-175-35-171.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:12:30 beaumonta [~abeaumont@77.231.255.67] has joined #lisp 15:13:08 -!- wobh` is now known as wobh 15:13:21 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@77.231.255.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:14:16 Hello? 15:14:50 is anybody out there? 15:15:04 I just got here. 15:15:15 just nod if you can hear me 15:15:17 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@AUSTTXHODS0AE13.mcleodusa.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:15:29 *wobh* nods 15:16:04 now I have that song in my head. 15:16:10 lufu [~user@5.254.134.49] has joined #lisp 15:18:21 glad to be of service 15:18:42 -!- beaumonta [~abeaumont@77.231.255.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:18:45 maybe you can help. 15:19:22 I'm working out some collections that accrues changes in value. 15:19:44 beaumonta [~abeaumont@77.231.255.94] has joined #lisp 15:20:39 -!- rotwatsb [~stephen@pool-71-190-19-203.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:21:03 I wrote functions PUSHDIFF and an EPUSHDIFF but now I'm wondering about inserting subsequences, and maybe formalizing things better. 15:21:44 not sure I can help 15:21:47 eaumontab [~abeaumont@77.231.255.100] has joined #lisp 15:21:56 On the other hand, maybe someone's already done this. 15:22:22 kwmiebach_ [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-229-229.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:24:06 No question, one-sentence specifications. What could we do with that? 15:24:44 -!- beaumonta [~abeaumont@77.231.255.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:24:47 heh 15:24:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:25:57 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-213-168-108-7.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:29:04 -!- paul424 [~chatzilla@apn-77-113-28-234.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:29:30 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:30:30 Hydan [~hydan@ip-89-103-110-5.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 15:31:43 Sorry, does anyone know of a class or type or something where you can push values and insert sequences and it checks that 1. pushed new values are different from the current first value 2. that the first and last values inserted sequences differ from the values in the current list adjacent to the insertion point. 3. insures that inserted sequence has no repeat values next to each other? Basically, if you were to use only these 15:31:43 functions/methods on a list or vector, there would be no repeated values next to each other. 15:31:51 does that make sense? 15:32:01 -!- rtoym changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: CMUCL 20e, SBCL 1.1.11 15:32:20 rtoym: thanks for upgrading ASDF to 3.0.2 15:32:26 p_l: Topic updated. You can change it back now. 15:32:43 don't change anything back 15:33:01 Fare: No prob. 15:35:04 I'm not even sure what to call these. Histories? Progressions? 15:37:24 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:54 wobh: right. Exactly the function that is needed in ALL programs, from HelloWorld to Google search engines. 15:44:56 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:48:25 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:48:26 ludocode [~quassel@69-165-148-218.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.20.114] has joined #lisp 15:49:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.20.114] has quit [Changing host] 15:49:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:49:47 ssqq [~perlvim@58.254.168.72] has joined #lisp 15:49:53 songzq [~perlvim@58.254.168.72] has joined #lisp 15:49:54 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 15:50:00 -!- songzq [~perlvim@58.254.168.72] has quit [Client Quit] 15:50:04 -!- ssqq [~perlvim@58.254.168.72] has left #lisp 15:50:50 pjb: I feel I should take that as, "You're overlooking something that's already in the standard." 15:51:07 or perhaps even more basic. 15:51:32 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:51:44 No on the contrary: don't expect to have in the CL package the functions of all the imaginable programs! It's "big" but not that big really. 15:52:20 Vicfred [~Vicfred@187.206.19.86] has joined #lisp 15:53:00 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:54:13 p_nathan1 [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has joined #lisp 15:54:24 Fair enough. I'll continue with what I'm doing. 15:56:11 dcguru [~chatzilla@66.129.60.130] has joined #lisp 15:56:45 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@78.15.15.109.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:57:46 aumontabe [~abeaumont@77.231.255.128] has joined #lisp 15:59:30 ivan4th` [~user@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 16:00:04 Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:27 -!- eaumontab [~abeaumont@77.231.255.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:00:36 -!- ivan4th [~user@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:47 antgreen [~green@ip-64-134-228-132.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:52 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has joined #lisp 16:01:43 -!- p_nathan1 [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:04:02 -!- TeaserASA [VANHALEN@178.123.95.30] has quit [Quit: jIRCii - http://www.oldschoolirc.com] 16:05:33 wobh: The thing is that global invariants on sequences cannot always be determined by local invariants, on a single element, or two following elements. Here you have a global invariant that happily is such that p(s)  p(s)  p(last(s),first(s))  p(ss), p being the global invariant, and p a predicate of two consecutive elements. But this cannot be generalized well. The best you can do is to just provi 16:06:06 Now, all the CL functions that work on sequence take as parameter only functions that work on single elements. 16:07:00 joast [~rick@cpe-24-160-56-92.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:10 Even in libraries, such as split-sequence, you can't split on a condition of two consecutive elements. (check com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.list:nsplit-list-on-indicator for an exception). 16:07:36 some of your text got cut off for me, "The best you can do is to just provi..." 16:07:41 doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:49 The best you can do is to just provide the function q(s,s) ( = p(last(s),first(s)) in this case); p is implied by it. 16:08:27 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:10:05 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:11:00 doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:11:31 Well that explains why I was having trouble figuring it out. 16:11:37 pjb: do you use unicode characters in your lisp identifiers [Notes: like that.] 16:11:55 Not yet. 16:12:07 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:12:19 I've an APL package started somewhere with APL unicode characters used. 16:12:20 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:12:52 Unicode in lisp sources is mostly used only for comments. 16:13:27 qlonik [~qlonik@142.68.39.37] has joined #lisp 16:14:02 -!- qlonik [~qlonik@142.68.39.37] has left #lisp 16:14:23 -!- dcguru [~chatzilla@66.129.60.130] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 23.0.1/20130902133717]] 16:14:39 f could be used advantageously over f* 16:15:09 malkomalko [~malkomalk@2600:1001:b12e:e39:cc69:8042:aa6d:c291] has joined #lisp 16:15:23 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:19:25 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:19:33 ssqq [~perlvim@58.254.168.72] has joined #lisp 16:21:19 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:21:33 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 16:21:57 (equal "\+\*" "+*") => T . If emacs parse the string, It's would make an error 16:22:34 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:50 Common Lisp also return T 16:22:52 there's no error 16:23:19 -!- Fare [~fare@syrah.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:23:40 With CL default reader macro for #\", #\\ escapes all the characters the same way. 16:23:59 If read an Perl regexp string "\w+", lisp would transfer the string to "w+" 16:24:02 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 16:24:44 in emacs, there's no error: "\+\*" --> "+*" 16:24:56 ssqq: you need two \\ 16:25:28 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has joined #lisp 16:26:36 I want design a function, transfer Perl style regexp string to Lisp style. But Lisp interpreter would ignore "\w\*\+" 16:27:08 there's no really lisp regexp styles in lisp 16:27:22 ssqq: build your strings as: (coerce '( #\\ #\w #\\ #\* #\\ #\+ ) 'string) 16:27:22 the ones in use employ the perl syntax 16:27:49 and "\w\*\+" is written as "\\w\\*\\+" 16:28:00 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:28:01 Maxima uses nregex, which does not use perl syntax. 16:28:04 (concatenate 'string "hello" '(#\\ #\w #\+) "world) ; etc. 16:28:06 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:28:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:28:31 doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:28:35 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.86.9] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:28:35 stassats`: I'm afraid "\\w\\*\\+" is too hard for them to understand. 16:28:42 I want change the read syntax of backslash '\' in read string. 16:28:55 ssqq: indeed, you can do that. 16:29:01 Thanks everyone. Good luck ssqq. 16:29:05 -!- wobh [~user@75-175-35-171.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 16:29:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.20.114] has joined #lisp 16:29:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.20.114] has quit [Changing host] 16:29:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:29:46 ssqq: see for example http://paste.lisp.org/display/137262 16:30:51 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 16:31:13 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:33:18 joe9 [~user@ip70-179-153-227.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:25 -!- malkomalko [~malkomalk@2600:1001:b12e:e39:cc69:8042:aa6d:c291] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:44 pjb: Thanks. May I use the function name to define new rule to parse string as Lisp read the code? 16:34:03 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089D41F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:34:17 No, you may not. 16:34:34 You have to define a reader macro on #\". 16:35:47 ikki [~ikki@201.165.170.161] has joined #lisp 16:35:53 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089D05C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:36:42 -!- aumontabe [~abeaumont@77.231.255.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:36:59 umontabea [~abeaumont@77.231.255.163] has joined #lisp 16:37:07 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 16:37:47 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.32.203] has joined #lisp 16:38:03 Lisp could not distinguish the string "\w+" and "w+". isn't it? 16:38:07 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Quit: kcj] 16:38:24 That's the same string indeed. 16:38:34 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 16:38:41 When read with the standard reader macro. 16:39:34 -!- umontabea [~abeaumont@77.231.255.163] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:39:49 mie3 [~other@94.25.228.106] has joined #lisp 16:40:03 -!- mie3 [~other@94.25.228.106] has quit [Client Quit] 16:40:52 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:22 pjb: thanks, I see. We only could define the string beginning quote char #\", could not define the escape char 16:43:50 yes. 16:44:26 You can also use a different character. !?{}[] are reserved for user programs. You could write {\w+} instead. 16:44:45 Or with unicode \w+ 16:46:48 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:47:09 pjb: Thanks a lots 16:48:01 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-140-82.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:48:15 Although #" isn't explicitly reservered for the user I think it's a nice choice too. If you keep your readtable modifications limited to your own readtables I don't think you can get into trouble by redefining an implementation specific reader macro 16:49:01 Indeed, even using just #\" should be mostly safe, since it's rare to write "\w". 16:50:34 pjb: I find, When Lisp read from a file, In stream, Lisp could distinguish "\w+" and "w+". 16:52:39 arnas [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 16:52:40 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 16:52:50 pjb: So Lisp could parse any style string from file, beside the string write in code. 16:53:29 there's no parsing if you read characters from a stream 16:53:48 -!- arnsa [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:54:15 Thanks stassats` and pjb. good night. 16:54:39 umontabea [~abeaumont@77.231.255.174] has joined #lisp 16:55:21 axion [~axion@127.sub-70-197-192.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 16:55:43 -!- ssqq [~perlvim@58.254.168.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:05:30 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:07:54 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089D05C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:14:50 Bike_ [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:15:12 knob3212 [~knob@66-50-23-168.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:42 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o p_l 17:15:45 -!- p_l has set mode +t 17:15:50 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o p_l 17:16:18 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 17:16:25 -!- knob is now known as Guest52377 17:16:30 -!- knob3212 is now known as knob 17:19:10 kenanb [~user@unaffiliated/kenanb] has joined #lisp 17:23:25 Enub [~Enub@h-31-210.a159.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 17:28:30 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-78-94-250-166.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:29:05 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:32:19 -!- kenanb [~user@unaffiliated/kenanb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:02 -!- danielszmulewi-1 [~danielszm@109.226.59.189] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewi-1] 17:34:58 atrika [~topphil@modemcable067.132-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:35:28 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.165.170.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:35:48 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:37:17 Fare [~fare@syrah.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:39:10 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@72.12.75.162] has joined #lisp 17:40:10 -!- atrika [~topphil@modemcable067.132-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:41:27 doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:41:29 atrika [~ptrottier@modemcable067.132-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:42:05 ikki [~ikki@201.165.170.161] has joined #lisp 17:43:50 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:43:57 malkomalko [~malkomalk@66-234-38-99.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:20 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089D05C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:44:35 k0001 [~k0001@host134.181-1-163.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:45:19 doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:48:21 -!- malkomalko [~malkomalk@66-234-38-99.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:49:56 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:50:24 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.165.170.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:50:35 doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:54:29 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 17:56:14 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:56:52 Can I use another name when referring to a package? e.g., `mathematical-functions:sqrt' => `math:sqrt'. 17:57:25 didi: the concept is called "nicknames". 17:57:30 package-local-nicknames 17:57:31 clhs package-nicknames 17:57:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pkg_ni.htm 17:57:34 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 17:57:40 Great. Thank you all. 17:58:28 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:59:06 p_nathan [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has joined #lisp 17:59:24 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:01:28 svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:03 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-130-237.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:38 -!- atrika [~ptrottier@modemcable067.132-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:03:24 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:03:25 Aramur [~arare@9.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:34 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:25 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@72.12.75.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:09:42 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@72.12.75.162] has joined #lisp 18:11:38 -!- 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duggiefresh [~duggiefre@72.12.75.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:41:03 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:18 -!- Enub [~Enub@h-31-210.a159.priv.bahnhof.se] has left #lisp 19:44:39 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-69.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:45:33 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:47:59 MikeSeth [~me@unaffiliated/mikeseth] has joined #lisp 19:48:32 hey, in common lisp, is (defun %foo) a special convention? 19:48:58 MikeSeth: % is commonly used to denote "internals" 19:49:18 as in "hairy dangerous internals" 19:49:40 that's what I suspected 19:49:42 thanks 19:49:58 sometimes you'll find %%, which an even bigger emphasis 19:50:06 or "i can't be bothered to think of a better name" 19:50:28 stassats`: well, something whose name might change at any moment counts as "do not use that directly" :) 19:50:55 if it's not exported, don't use it 19:50:55 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:50:59 % is useless here 19:51:04 well, % is approprite for hairy 19:51:11 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 19:51:14 I'mm looking at SBCL's FFI code.. 19:51:22 if somebody wants to wreck his code, no percentages will stop him 19:51:57 in sbcl, %x means usually something used to implement x 19:52:33 stassats`: so there's a top level wrapper without %? 19:53:03 usually 19:53:23 or that it's internal part used for example by macroexpansions 19:53:26 -!- arnas [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:53:40 arnas [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 19:53:45 -!- arnas [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54:26 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 19:55:54 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:56:29 makes perfect sense 20:02:05 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 20:02:43 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 20:05:00 ntabeaumo [~abeaumont@77.231.223.135] has joined #lisp 20:06:25 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-14-77.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 20:06:56 -!- ontabeaum [~abeaumont@77.231.225.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:10:54 tabeaumon [~abeaumont@77.231.255.142] has joined #lisp 20:12:42 -!- ntabeaumo [~abeaumont@77.231.223.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:13:25 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:13:52 doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:16:20 abeaumont [~abeaumont@77.231.223.136] has joined #lisp 20:18:13 -!- tabeaumon [~abeaumont@77.231.255.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:18:24 -!- sdemarre [~serge@142.191-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit 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joined #lisp 20:55:06 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-203-73.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:59:47 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 21:00:01 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@77.232.152.122] has joined #lisp 21:04:32 Aramur [~arare@9.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:48 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.59.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:08:04 giusef [~Giuseppe@net-188-153-194-226.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 21:08:16 can I get the list of supported external formats in SBCL as a variable directly? (found it at http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#External-Formats) 21:09:20 desophos [~desophos@n138h11.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 21:09:39 -!- lufu [~user@5.254.134.49] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:21 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:14:03 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:15:08 dim: yes. 21:15:17 Using internal stuff. 21:15:53 do you happen to know which? I only found a gist that's building the list from reading filenames in the source tree of SBCL and I'm not really excited by that method 21:16:29 my goal is to offer encoding parameters to the end-user, and I'm willing to say that my software (pgloader) is going to be SBCL-only for awhile here 21:16:44 Check com.informatimago.common-lisp.clext.character-sets:*lisp-encodings* 21:17:00 unless maybe flexi-streams or babel or something else actually are good ideas for encoding aware file reading code? 21:17:07 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:17:59 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Quit: Life is too short] 21:19:04 (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.clext) 21:19:11 com.informatimago.clext.character-sets:*lisp-encodings* 21:19:16 sorry for the confusion. 21:19:37 and it's com.informatimago.clext.character-sets::*lisp-encodings* 21:19:40 oh I think I actually like your lib here 21:19:52 no pb I was reading your code from https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/5e89d06ba1efa1295ae7e0f2be300ae00a08c3d4:clext/character-sets.lisp 21:20:05 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 21:20:53 Yes, I was lazy to go to the web :-) 21:21:31 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 21:22:46 hehe 21:23:26 clext is all and only about compat between implementations? 21:24:19 doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:25:07 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:26:02 doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:28:00 -!- pjb [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-181-163.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:28:13 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 21:28:25 pjb [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-25-254.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:28:34 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:28:46 -!- pjb is now known as Guest45656 21:28:48 No, not only. It contains things that are implementation dependant. 21:29:46 -!- Guest45656 is now known as pjb` 21:29:53 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f66ad9.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30:01 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 21:30:09 doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:14 No, not only. It contains things that are implementation dependant. 21:30:52 ok, will have some look now that I depend on it 21:31:37 when given a string that I "parse" into an encoding to use internally, I should use your make-external-format function with the character encoding name? 21:32:19 yeah, it seems 21:32:53 Yes. 21:33:55 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-140-82.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:09 -!- Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:35:03 looks like in SBCL charsets:make-external-format (using a local nickname) is not paying attention to line-termination, right? 21:35:24 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.74] has joined #lisp 21:36:12 Yes, I don't know how to specify line terminations in sbcl. 21:36:35 Apparently, #+sbcl external-formats are only the encoding as a keyword. 21:36:42 dim: it's implicit 21:37:16 stassats`: how do you control it? 21:37:21 as in, always LF 21:37:33 what if I'm given a CSV file using CRLF? 21:37:58 clisp converts all line terminations to newlines on input. Perhaps sbcl does the same? 21:38:07 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:38:38 no 21:38:46 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:39:10 Well sbcl went to Microsoft Windows only recently 21:39:11 doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:39:48 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:40:29 about 6 years 21:40:50 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:31 gusta`` [~user@c7F7CBF51.dhcp.as2116.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:41 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:43:22 doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:43:41 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:44:02 SrPx [b19f2820@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.159.40.32] has joined #lisp 21:45:51 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 21:47:21 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 21:49:39 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-173-67-109-81.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 21:53:58 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:54:35 doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:45 -!- giusef [~Giuseppe@net-188-153-194-226.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:55:05 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:55:15 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 21:55:22 -!- breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:56:59 -!- rswarbrick [~rswarbric@host-2-96-109-40.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:57:29 doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:42 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:58:34 -!- kmder [GR0--hBgEh@panix1.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:00:05 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:00:09 kmder [~kmd@panix1.panix.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:36 doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:01:10 when using an external-format, is there any charset conversion happening or just valication? what encoding is used for in-memory data? 22:03:07 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:04:08 doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:14 the internal encoding 22:04:14 -!- kmder [~kmd@panix1.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:04:28 implementation dependant? 22:04:37 naturally 22:04:48 -!- gusta`` [~user@c7F7CBF51.dhcp.as2116.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:05:03 is there any programmatic way to figure it out so that I can set client_encoding in the PostgreSQL connection? 22:05:22 that doesn't make sense 22:05:38 really? let's try reformulating then 22:05:40 dim: internally CL uses the CHARACTER data type. 22:06:13 the mapping of characters to integer thru char-code/code-char is arbitrary, and unrelated to any external-format, a-priori. 22:06:16 in my lisp program I'm reading from a file and sending the data I read to a PostgreSQL connection, I want to know what is the encoding of the data 22:06:54 set to it whichever suits you best and which can encode your data 22:06:56 You cannot send to any other process a character data object. You have to serialize it. Either you do that explicitely yourself (eg. using BABEL), or you go thru an external-format to produce a byte sequence. 22:07:35 The external-formats you use to read the file and to write to the psql socket can be different (and probably will be). 22:07:40 I see (now)... here I'm using a stream, and writing the data in the stream will encode it again then? 22:07:49 naturally 22:08:15 well it's not the way it works in plenty other languages, so excuse me for not finding that natural at all 22:08:26 well, point taken meanwhile, thanks for explaining 22:08:41 What you could do, is to use binary streams. They you could avoid decoding/encoding, if both use the same. 22:08:41 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:08:54 s/They/Then/ 22:09:09 well I need to parse the input file, read lines, split lines in columns, apply transformation functions, etc 22:09:35 e.g. null is sometimes read as \N and other times as any number of blanks 22:10:09 and what PostgreSQL calls NULL is expected to be a nil for postmodern, so I want to process the data I read as text before sending it over 22:10:16 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:48 and another test where I didn't understand why the default parameter was making its way through the call stack when actually I did forget to reload the test function definition... 22:13:22 it seems to me that the zip:unzip implementation is quite slow 22:13:42 kmder [~kmd@panix1.panix.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:46 no wonder, it's probably isn't made to be fast 22:13:48 I would need to do some measurements and compare it to calling an external process but it really looks slow 22:14:15 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:14:19 if I need fast, (uiop:run-program "unzip ...") I guess then? 22:14:49 or you can write a faster one 22:15:06 it's not the core of my project here 22:15:33 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host134.181-1-163.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:15:36 -!- sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:15:59 nice, PostgreSQL using 99% of one CPU while SBCL is using 45% of another, data is loading and my pgloader implementation is not the bottleneck ;-) 22:16:14 you can write a faster postgresql 22:16:27 (maybe the disk is at 26MBps sustained in writes) 22:17:14 stassats`: while I'm a PostgreSQL contributor my current area of work doesn't include much performance work if at all, but I have colleagues pretty active on that front 22:18:04 ok the CREATE INDEX manages to get 34MBps writes 22:18:11 and it's done ;-) 22:21:39 sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has joined #lisp 22:21:50 -!- paul424 [~chatzilla@91.207.68.43] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 24.0/2013091200]] 22:22:31 6224 rows per second with non trivial transformation of the data, I guess it's ok for a start (only the loading phase, not including unzip and create index) 22:22:41 but well I have much to learn yet about lisp and perfs 22:22:51 I guess I'm consing like a mad 22:23:12 step 1) buy a faster cpu 2) optimize for only one implementation 22:23:23 and that I should learn about declare inline and compile for speed 22:23:39 3) pay people to optimize the said implementation 22:23:52 so, the trick is that I'm building a software for others than me to use, so I won't know which CPU is running it 22:23:59 4) Rewrite bottlenecks in C. 22:24:08 and currently I'm thinking of going with only SBCL support 22:24:09 Okasu: i was going to say in asm 22:24:16 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-140-82.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:24:32 that's something I don't want to consider before learning CL optimisation and profiling 22:24:41 (rewriting parts in other languages) 22:25:14 I'm coming from python and will next compare the current CL version with the previous python one, I hope I will have something interesting to say about the porting effort;-) 22:25:26 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:25:48 doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:27:12 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 22:28:37 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 22:29:06 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:30:10 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzzZ] 22:31:32 -!- SrPx [b19f2820@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.159.40.32] has quit [Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 22:31:33 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:32:29 masondesu [~textual@adsl-98-71-134-138.gsp.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:36 -!- kmder [~kmd@panix1.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:32:44 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-140-82.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:02 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p57A5D5B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:35:32 dim: Somehow everyone forgot 0) make sure your algorithms have the time/space complexity that they should. 22:36:43 -!- cross [cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:38:21 yeah, I will need to review that, but it's actually pretty simple on that front... 22:38:22 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 22:38:38 p_nathan1 [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has joined #lisp 22:39:17 I'm more thinking (declare (inline)) in some functions and compiler "speed" optimisation for generated code (the parser generate code, which is compiled, then run) 22:40:37 do you have a lot of bignums, double floats, foreign pointers? 22:41:04 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:41:13 if not, then inline will not be as effective, simply declaring better types will achieve good results 22:41:45 it's almost all text, some computations on IPv4 is that very case, so fixnums, no foreign pointers in that code path that I can think of 22:42:12 I didn't declare any types yet 22:42:30 (setf sb-ext:*derive-function-types* t) can give some free speed 22:42:52 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 22:43:01 in the long run (maintainance costs) what's best? declaring types I guess? 22:43:18 -!- peterhil- [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c0fc-28.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:43:41 making the implementation smarter it doesn't need any 22:44:09 that's long long run ;-) 22:44:25 probably can't be done completely with an ahead of time compiler 22:44:31 ok anyways, good night people here! (or whatever adapts to your current TZ) 22:44:50 good sol 22:45:08 *dim* wonders if CL standard forbids JIT 22:45:12 -!- masondesu [~textual@adsl-98-71-134-138.gsp.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:45:21 of course it doesn't 22:45:26 why would it? 22:46:07 well it could impose some constraints making it hard to impossible for a JIT compiler to comply, I don't know 22:46:55 the only constraint is "preserve the semantics" 22:47:27 -!- p_nathan1 [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:47:50 -!- Fare [~fare@syrah.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:48:12 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:49:57 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 22:50:32 pillton [~user@140.253.50.147] has joined #lisp 22:53:38 masondesu [~textual@adsl-98-71-134-138.gsp.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:58:54 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@77.231.223.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:59:28 abeaumont [~abeaumont@77.231.225.129] has joined #lisp 22:59:48 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:03:39 kmder [~kmd@166.84.1.1] has joined #lisp 23:03:44 jaimef [~jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 23:04:47 dim: there are less such constraints than in some other languages 23:04:52 k0001 [~k0001@host134.181-1-163.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 23:05:18 wenshan [~user@willow26.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:34 -!- kwmiebach_ [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-229-229.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:07:47 dim: when processing data from input to output, one often lose a lot of time copying it over and over. 23:08:00 Read the data in buffers, and keep it there. 23:08:13 Use the :start :end parameters. 23:08:16 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:08:33 (destruct substring buffer start end) 23:08:36 defstruct 23:09:13 actually, there's already a CL data structure for that: displaced arrays. cf. com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:nsubseq 23:10:06 -!- sellout- [~Adium@65.101.242.214] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:10:15 if only displaced arrays weren't excruciatingly slow 23:10:28 One pointer indirection is excruciatingly slow. 23:11:08 it is not one pointer indirection, however 23:11:15 But less excruciatingly slow than copying the data over and over. 23:11:21 Then it's a dumb implementation. 23:11:44 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:11:51 displaced array can be nested indefinitely 23:11:57 Most Lisp compilers seem to use a pure flow graph as their IR. 23:12:02 (e.g., CMUCL/SBCL) 23:12:09 They throw away syntactic nesting information in this transform. 23:12:15 That's fine, because they generate bytecode. 23:12:16 and i wouldn't bet that copying would be is slower 23:12:39 I want to regenerate _Lisp_ back from _Lisp_, and this Lisp doesn't have an efficient TAG/GOBODY mechanism to implement arbitrary jumps between basic blocks. 23:12:53 I'd have to reconstruct an applicative tree from the flow graph, which seems problematic. 23:13:14 So I've been performing optimizations on a concrete, direct-style AST with a flow graph superimposed between the nodes. 23:13:21 But that seems ugly, because we duplicate information. 23:13:50 Is it in fact reasonable to represent IR as a pure flow graph? How can we guarantee that we can reconstruct applicative lisp from that? 23:14:30 that sounds like a question for #compilers, not #lisp 23:17:13 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@77.231.225.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:17:45 abeaumont [~abeaumont@77.231.225.129] has joined #lisp 23:20:18 -!- chenjf [~chenjf@58.254.168.54] has left #lisp 23:21:14 gusta`` [~user@c7F7CBF51.dhcp.as2116.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:18 cross [cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:10 apfel [~apfel@p549986A9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:26:47 -!- awygle [~Andrew@50-46-110-78.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:29:19 breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:33 -!- masondesu [~textual@adsl-98-71-134-138.gsp.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:29:53 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:30:11 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9F11E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:16 -!- knob [~knob@66-50-23-168.prtc.net] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 23:33:25 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@77.231.225.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:33:49 abeaumont [~abeaumont@77.231.225.144] has joined #lisp 23:39:26 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:47:39 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:49:23 smithzv [~user@duan145-236-dhcp.colorado.edu] has joined #lisp 23:51:40 Does anybody have a link to the "best practices" way of defining a system for asdf? 23:56:50 In particular, I get different behavior when I load a precompiled fasl rather than load it after a fresh compile. It seems that the system captures some symbols from packages that I never intended them too. My suspicion is that the *package* binding that was in effect at compile time has an effect on how my systems compile and I need to fix that. 23:57:47 you need in-package at the beginning of every file 23:58:09 will (in-package :cl-user) be a good idea? 23:58:16 no 23:58:20 hmmm. 23:58:30 define its own "system package"? 23:59:09 system package? no, just an ordinary package 23:59:51 sorry, I am being confusing. I mean, in the file where I define my package, I think that the binding of *package* is causing problems. What do I put at the top of that file? 23:59:52 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 00:00:06 -!- desophos [~desophos@n138h11.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:00:51 does it really cause any problems? 00:01:43 not sure, there is a problem for sure, but I am not 100% sure what the issue is. But sometimes I get packages that reference some other odd package for no reason I can see 00:02:02 can you paste the code? 00:02:25 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.168.90.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:02:37 very intermittent, let me try to recreate 00:04:47 -!- echo-area [~user@123.120.234.61] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:06:00 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@77.232.152.122] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:06:29 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@77.232.152.122] has joined #lisp 00:09:57 the only problem can be if you load it from a package which doesn't use the CL package 00:10:08 but that's a rare place to be loading things from 00:10:29 but if you do, then in-package :cl-user might indeed help 00:10:29 This is where I think the issue is as well, can you elaborate... 00:10:45 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@77.232.152.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:10:45 I loaded from Antik, which shadows a bunch of CL symbols 00:11:01 Or Antik-user rather 00:11:05 does it shadow defpackage? 00:11:30 let me check, that would be weird though, if it did 00:11:53 theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.168.90.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:28 using (in-package :cl-user) or cl:defpackage doesn't appear to be particularly common, which suggests that people rarely do have a problem with it 00:13:19 well, it seems it only shows up if I compiled it is a weird way, and to fix it you just delete the fasl files and have them be regenerated. 00:14:11 -!- axion [~axion@127.sub-70-197-192.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:14:41 nope, doesn't shadow defpackage as far as I can tell. 00:15:21 oh well, I was trying to remember something that I thought maybe Xach did long ago, something that build an asdf skeleton for you, maybe. 00:15:44 I think it always made a -system package that you defpackaged from 00:15:49 quick-project? 00:15:50 wenshan` [~user@willow26.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:00 thanks, let me look at that 00:16:53 In PCL (practical common lisp) chapter 7 Macros: Standard Control Constructs, the author wrote a trivial version of the `when' macro: (defmacro when (condition &rest body) `(if ,condition (progn ,@body))). I don't quite understand why comma is needed for ,condition and ,@body . 00:17:19 that's how ` works 00:18:11 cg505 [~user@50.121.10.233] has joined #lisp 00:18:39 stassats`: yeah, nothing -system in quickproject, I am certainly misremembering things... 00:20:30 -!- wenshan [~user@willow26.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:23:30 stassats`: I see, thank you. 00:26:30 stassats`: See http://paste.lisp.org/+2ZFC It seems that people do, sometimes, put an (in-package :cl-user) at the beginning of an asd file and define a -system package... 00:26:44 so if I don't use `, I can write that macro like this: (defmacro my-when (cond &rest body) (list 'if cond (cons 'progn body))) 00:27:58 wenshan`: looks right. Try it in your lisp with macroexpand-1 00:28:00 axion [~axion@34.sub-70-197-193.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 00:28:20 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 00:28:59 smithzv: there's not much of a reason to do so 00:29:23 but asdf keeps changing its behaviour, there's that 00:29:37 it used to, not sure, probably not touch the package 00:29:47 then it started defining random packages and then deleting them 00:29:54 and nowadays it runs in a asdf/user package 00:29:59 go figure what will happen next 00:30:44 stassats`: good point. As I said, just fishing for ideas of why this happens and how to fix it. 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[~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 03:35:06 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:40:55 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:43:32 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-229-172.w83-193.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:43:42 Good morning everyone. 03:45:36 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-140-82.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:50 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 03:51:50 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host134.181-1-163.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:53:38 wobh [~user@75-175-35-171.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:29 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:00:17 fenton [~fenton@ppp-110-168-34-70.revip5.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 04:01:13 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.32.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:01:48 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:03:38 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joined #lisp 04:55:28 Hello, I am looking for direction on lisp dialects to start learning. 04:55:58 -!- ASau [~user@p4FF973DD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:56:13 Bohemian1acks: What do you want to know? 04:56:15 -!- Guest11854 [~attila_le@92.46.20.114] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:56:56 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.84] has joined #lisp 04:56:59 I code mostly on an ssh server with vim and would like the most basic starting point 04:57:34 -!- pillton [~user@140.253.50.147] has left #lisp 04:57:39 Something that has lots of material to learn from and won't kill me trying to set up a development environment 04:58:29 Ultimate it will be for machine learning but I assume one dialect doesn't haven't any clear advantage there. 04:58:31 This channel is mostly into Common Lisp, one of the three main dialects still in use. 04:58:44 Bohemian1acks: Oh, there is a big difference. 04:59:04 Hmm? care to elaborate? 04:59:21 -!- Bohemian1acks is now known as BohemianHacks 04:59:26 Scheme (another main dialect) often requires you to write your own infrastructure before you can get some real work done. 04:59:34 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:59:45 Whereas Common Lisp comes with a large number of great tools such as the Common Lisp Object System. 04:59:51 What about clojure? 04:59:59 -!- p_nathan1 [~Adium@216.57.209.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:00:15 I don't know much about it. You would have to ask someone else. 05:00:44 As I recall, arbscht is using it in production where he works. 05:01:15 What kind of networking capabilities does lisp have? 05:01:21 The same as C -- none. 05:01:22 common lisp* 05:01:49 so raw sockets? or literally none? 05:02:00 Guest11854 [~attila_le@92.46.20.114] has joined #lisp 05:02:02 As with C ... literally none. 05:02:03 meaning nothing in the standard language, but there are plenty of libraries for it. 05:02:06 BohemianHacks: What Zhivago is saying is that it is not part of the language. 05:02:24 libcurl? 05:02:25 from e.g. usocket for sockets up to drakma an httpc. 05:02:31 libcurl is not part of C. 05:02:49 I'm aware, im asking if lisp has something like it 05:02:49 BohemianHacks: Common Lisp has plenty of libraries; pretty much anything you might want. 05:03:03 cool I guessed as much but you neve know 05:03:06 There are plenty of posix sockets support libraries, as with C. 05:03:47 I started with python, have been working with c++ this year in class, and did some c for micocontrollers. 05:04:16 I would like to get a functional language under my belt and lisp has some cool feature for my desired career path 05:04:34 BohemianHacks: Lisp is not considered to be a functional language, 05:04:40 BohemianHacks: Common Lisp is not very functional 05:04:49 though you can use a functional style if you like. 05:04:50 Scheme is, more or less 05:05:00 Clojure is, as well 05:05:02 CrazyEddy [~opisthodo@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 05:05:02 as it has some oop and state specific stuff? 05:05:45 Pretty much. 05:05:45 -!- CrazyEddy [~opisthodo@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:45 probably a biased place to ask, but what about haskell? 05:05:45 haskell's pretty cool. 05:05:46 but has very little to do with lisp, of course. 05:07:08 BohemianHacks, "some oop" It has a lot of OOP. 05:07:36 "Enterprise Lisp" 05:09:11 CrazyEddy [~forgivabl@113.52.233.162] has joined #lisp 05:09:14 -!- CrazyEddy [~forgivabl@113.52.233.162] has quit [Changing host] 05:09:14 CrazyEddy [~forgivabl@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 05:09:24 prxq [~mommer@x2f68fc8.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 05:09:43 -!- fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317373.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:11:12 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-igwwtqmpisbzyqxf] has joined #lisp 05:15:00 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-14-77.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 05:15:44 Bohemian: Note that CL is a procedural language; it just has good support for a functional style of programming. 05:16:09 For pure functional you might want to look at the ML family or haskell, etc. 05:18:21 mrSpec [~Spec@213-238-116-83.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 05:18:21 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@213-238-116-83.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Changing host] 05:18:22 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:19:23 -!- apfel [~apfel@p549986A9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:19:34 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 05:20:31 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-237-55.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:23:17 or clojure 05:23:23 patbarron [~pat@lectroid.com] has joined #lisp 05:23:57 or scheme/racket/other-named-scheme-dialect 05:24:07 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.198.222] has joined #lisp 05:24:23 Clojure and scheme are also procedural. 05:24:57 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:25:03 Functional style is at least in encouraged in Clojure 05:25:56 Sure, but you're back to functional style, then. 05:26:16 -!- Hydan [~hydan@ip-89-103-110-5.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:27:49 well after 2 years of learning lisp and 50 or so unfinished projects, i'm about to deploy my first finished project, a blog web app 05:28:09 Hurrah. 05:28:37 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.198.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:28:56 Zhivago: No language is truly purely functional though, even languages like haskell just make it very explicit when you are doing non pure stuff. 05:29:17 That's bollocks. 05:29:19 Anyone use vim over emacs+slime? 05:29:27 -!- yours_truly [~yours@bas2-hamilton02-845478447.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:29:29 There's nothing that stops a language from being purely functional. 05:29:40 BohemianHacks: No :) 05:29:46 BohemianHacks: there's slimv, but it's not as popular as slime. 05:30:10 well dang, I'm going to have to learn new key bindings 05:30:12 Zhivago: name a purely functional language then? 05:30:12 BohemianHacks: me 05:30:48 axion do you have a good syntax highlighter? 05:31:00 Unlambda. 05:31:06 danielszmulewi-1 [~danielszm@109.226.23.74] has joined #lisp 05:31:09 BohemianHacks: slimv 05:31:22 haskell's pure, i don't know if you're thinking IO somehow breaks it or what 05:31:25 offtopic though. 05:33:54 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:35:20 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-187-240.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:36:21 -!- BohemianHacks [~boho@50708181.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Quit: just borked my terminal] 05:37:03 BohemianHacks [~boho@50708181.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #lisp 05:38:08 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:38:19 sometimes i think i'm the only vim lisper here 05:38:53 such a rebel! 05:39:16 I also use vim :) 05:39:17 axion: Question for you: Would you recommend it to others? If so, why? Because you think it is better than Emacs/SLIME, or for some other reason? 05:39:43 no definitely not better, just preference. 05:39:49 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@77.232.152.122] has joined #lisp 05:39:57 -!- gusta`` [~user@c7F7CBF51.dhcp.as2116.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:40:12 i read the emacs manual, did the tutorial, and used it plenty of times...i just couldnt stick with it 05:40:34 I see. 05:41:20 gusta`` [~user@c7F7CBF51.dhcp.as2116.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:58 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 05:42:14 axion: Once you get used to emacs, you will not give it up especially for Lisp programming 05:43:10 Until you become crippled, like Stallman. 05:43:11 I ever has beem a VI(M) user for decades. But now i use emacs every day :) 05:43:13 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 05:43:18 i like a small, quick, drop-in editor, plus i used vim for years before i got into lisp so i'm more comfortable in it. also, i usually dont connect to a remote server with emacs onstantly running like most do...i power my netbook down constantly and move from hotspot to hotspot 05:43:23 Then you can hire a mexican to do your typing for you. 05:44:27 sports will avoid being crippled especiall for fingers :) 05:45:28 -!- gusta`` [~user@c7F7CBF51.dhcp.as2116.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:46:29 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:52:26 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 05:52:50 awygle1 [~Andrew@50-46-110-78.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:00 axion: same here, didn't feel as productive in emacs 05:54:25 tried using evil mode as well but it didn't fit quite well with slime 05:56:07 I don't like the effects on typing comfort of the extensive use of ctrl and meta 05:58:41 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 05:59:10 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:44 I'm going to wait to mess with slimv too much 06:00:07 I would rather play with actual code tonight than setting up an ide 06:00:29 being non-root is somtimes a pain, I wish i could just apt-get 06:00:37 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 06:01:35 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:01:41 ggole [~ggole@220-253-182-166.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:02:46 axion: With slimv, do you get all the goodies like the inspector and examining stack contents, etc.? 06:03:03 [Just so I know what to say to the next guy who asks] 06:03:49 I have quicklisp and sblc installed :D Time to smoke and start learning 06:04:06 BohemianHacks: Good luck. 06:04:10 If anyone has a good tutorial to link I would appreciate it very much 06:04:21 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:04:40 minion: tell BohemianHacks about pcl. 06:04:41 BohemianHacks: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 06:08:33 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host96.190-137-82.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:09:34 Cool thats the page I had open :D 06:10:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-69.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:11:20 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-237-55.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:12:07 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:38 -!- harish_ [harish@nat/redhat/x-mrsprwdopblfsbog] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:15:54 beach: yes 06:15:57 pillton [~user@140.253.50.147] has joined #lisp 06:16:06 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:16:13 axion: Thanks! 06:16:33 ltbarcly_ [~textual@216.113.168.134] has joined #lisp 06:16:37 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:18:37 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-229-172.w83-193.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:24:37 -!- Guest11854 [~attila_le@92.46.20.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:27:33 harish_ [harish@nat/redhat/x-pyjighbupwfukfcn] has joined #lisp 06:27:52 oleo [d4b81ecd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.184.30.205] has joined #lisp 06:30:19 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:33:48 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 06:36:07 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.145.158.207] has joined #lisp 06:36:59 -!- willyfro1 is now known as willyfrog 06:37:08 any reason for lispbox to hang and pin my cpu at 99%? 06:37:37 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-237-55.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:38:18 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 06:38:47 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.145.158.207] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:40:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:40:13 Why is sbcl called "Steel Bank" Common Lisp? What does "Steel Bank" mean? 06:41:24 it's a joke. it's ancestor was CMU lisp, Carnegie-Mellon 06:41:27 daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 06:41:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-28-8.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:41:48 -!- awygle1 [~Andrew@50-46-110-78.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:42:28 http://www.sbcl.org/history.html 06:42:59 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@171.216.154.55] has left #lisp 06:49:06 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:49:09 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-173-67-109-81.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:15 I'm not even that far into this tutorial and lisp is pretty cool 06:49:39 I only played with interactive python a bit, but for lisp it seems really cool 06:51:07 mal____, nightfly: Thanks. 06:51:17 PuffTheMagic [uid3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dcnsadppoywsctpa] has joined #lisp 06:51:34 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:31 -!- 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connection] 08:27:52 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:32:38 ogamita [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:33:42 peterhil` [~peterhil@gw4.tieturi.com] has joined #lisp 08:34:48 ;Good morning. 08:35:04 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:35:40 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:20 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:36:35 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 08:36:42 Hello zorkmoid 08:37:46 -!- ogamita [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:37:52 ogamita [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:39:25 ogamita` [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:39:42 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:39:48 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:40:03 wonderful morning today... 08:41:37 peterhil- [~peterhil@gw4.tieturi.com] has joined #lisp 08:41:40 -!- peterhil- [~peterhil@gw4.tieturi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:41:48 peterhil [~peterhil@gw4.tieturi.com] has joined #lisp 08:42:22 beaumonta [~abeaumont@77.231.225.2] has joined #lisp 08:42:31 -!- ogamita is now known as Guest76324 08:42:41 weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:49 -!- ogamita` is now known as ogamita 08:43:08 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@77.231.225.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:43:09 danielszmulewi-1 [~danielszm@109.226.59.4] has joined #lisp 08:43:31 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:43:42 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:43:47 -!- Guest76324 [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:43:49 -!- weie 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has joined #lisp 13:27:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:28:15 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@176.62.96.188] has joined #lisp 13:29:11 -!- harish_ [~harish@119.234.153.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:29:30 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-84-44-176-106.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:31:55 Greetings. 13:35:02 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 13:37:56 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:21 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:38:36 hello hitecnologys 13:38:59 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 13:39:11 -!- Aramur [~arare@9.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 13:40:19 -!- octet8 [~klogd_@59.174.84.145] has quit [] 13:42:06 octet8 [~klogd_@59.174.84.145] has joined #lisp 13:43:46 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-69.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:44:36 ogamita` [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:44:36 -!- ogamita [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:46:06 Eesh [~other@94.25.229.26] has joined #lisp 13:46:09 hello 13:46:18 hi Eesh 13:46:31 why it doesn't setf with let? http://ideone.com/RmV8vf 13:46:54 let only works with variables 13:47:04 not places 13:47:31 stassats`: so it just copies value by pointer returned by getf? 13:47:50 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:48:04 it doesn't copy anything 13:48:13 jangle [~jimmy1984@50.241.129.73] has joined #lisp 13:48:37 okay 13:48:38 thanks 13:48:45 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:48:51 -!- Eesh [~other@94.25.229.26] has quit [Client Quit] 13:50:39 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.85.178] has joined #lisp 13:50:45 segv- [~mb@95-91-243-212-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:54:03 -!- uzo [~uzo@99.103.189.64] has 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