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I'm a llama again. http://www.shlomifish.org/] 15:33:40 I'm thoroughly enjoying blogging with Lisplog. Fastger than my old Drupal blogging engine, and cut down to the bone of what I actually use, making that very easy 15:34:26 -!- CrazyEddy [~unevangel@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:34:48 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:34:50 billstclair: Lisplog is in a usable staight? (other than by you) 15:35:05 CrazyEddy [~cerebroid@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 15:35:06 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 15:35:09 Not well enough documented for most, and not easy to create a new site 15:35:21 s/staight/state 15:35:30 Once I get the features I want for my own blog, i'll start blogging at lisplog.org to document it 15:35:34 But it does work 15:35:45 -!- anonchik [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:35:51 does it have automatic syntax highlighting? 15:35:52 Well enough to convert my 5,000 drupal nodes into .html files 15:35:56 no 15:36:01 :) 15:36:07 No pluggable modules yet, either 15:36:18 Lots of pluggins desireable for formatting 15:36:27 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:36:57 -!- tokenrove [~julian@miranda.org] has quit [Quit: .] 15:37:03 I took the fastest path to switching my own blog. The more general purpose stuff will come, in time 15:37:32 I see. 15:38:30 so posts are just written to disk? no db involved 15:38:31 ? 15:38:49 The DB is printed lisp alists written to disk as separate files 15:38:58 One file per drupal database row 15:39:12 (in case you're wondering, I'm trying to understand how it works, because Posterous is a bit of a pain which what I have used.) 15:39:14 They are rendered to html files, which are also written to disk 15:39:21 The site is served as static HTML by Apache. 15:39:32 Editing uses a Hunchentoot engine 15:39:34 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:42:02 I figured a very simple mechanism for a Hunchantoot taskmaster that uses a thread pool with a maximum size. Uses eager-future 15:42:04 https://github.com/billstclair/Lisplog/blob/master/src/taskmaster.lisp 15:42:05 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:42:14 do you use any specific markup language? (or a rich-text widget :)) 15:42:34 nope, just html with
and

inserted and bare URLs changed to links 15:43:01 and code snippets just 

 ?
15:43:07  Maybe I'll add a javascript widget at some point, but I actually prefer coding my own HTML
15:43:11  yes
15:43:49  And some  like other markup languages. Doesn't really matter to me
15:43:54  Hence the need for plugins
15:44:05  So people can add what they want
15:44:10  right. i dont know if there are any markup languages with built-in CL support
15:44:13  billstclair: do you keep your db files in ram all the time, and only use them as a sort of redo-log/serializer file?
15:44:30  (As far as syntax highlighting, etc goes I mean
15:44:39  No. The DB files are stored on disk and loaded when a new or edited post or comment is saved
15:45:06  It might actually be faster to store the "db" in ram and render on the fly
15:45:17  But it's plenty fast now, so I see no reason to play with it
15:45:24  Apache does a good job of serving static html
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15:46:18  data/nodes/35/3567 contains one post, as text for a plist
15:46:32  billstclair: ah, interresting. i've been thinking about such a system lately. i think i want to deal with objects and MAKE-LOAD-FORM as opposed to alists, but do you think this scheme really works under high concurrency?
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15:47:08  Well, it's currently restricted to one lisp process accessing the database. I used file locks in an earlier PHP version of the same idea.
15:47:16  So, no, it won't scale real big.
15:47:23  But the dynamic code is only used for changes.
15:47:33  rucksack was/is pretty interesting
15:47:48  haven't looked at that
15:48:51  billstclair: ah, k. my app is a bit different; lots of ajax and dynamic...
15:49:00  But it WOULD all fit in RAM. Only 61 megs of data for the whole 10 years of blog
15:49:19  Yes. I've eschewed javascript
15:49:21 Cran1988 [~manos@ppp089210130114.dsl.hol.gr] has joined #lisp
15:49:39  Weblocks does that pretty well, though
15:50:02 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@gw249-1.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
15:51:20  Of course, you could build a javascript version of Lisplog, or make it completely dynamic, without much work
15:51:37  It's basically a glorified template processor
15:51:45  The next step from blogmax
15:52:30  It is quite clean. HTML is only in data and the template files. The template itself does all its formatting with a single css file
15:53:03  I'll do a simpler template for lisplog.org
15:53:18  Anyway... back to paid work
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16:23:43  am I imagining things or was there a POSITIVEP in cl?
16:24:55  as opposed to plusp?
16:24:58  ooh
16:25:01  plusp. thanks.
16:25:01  I just tried to load hemlock (portable hemlock) with quicklisp in clisp and ccl and both fail.  There seem to be missing dependencies in hemlock.asd, and other problems in the sources (eg. missing variable make-buffer-hook (it's defined as a defhvar, but there seem to be a bootstrap problem there).
16:25:08  np
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16:26:36 <_8david> pjb: which portable hemlock repo are you using?
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17:03:07  _8david: the one provided by quicklisp.
17:03:14  Are there several repositories?
17:05:09 <_8david> there is the old CVS on common-lisp.net, and the new git with my changes.  I think the latter is in quicklisp, but you mentioned a hemlock.asd, and ISTR that's the old name, which doesn't exist anymore
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17:05:56 <_8david> Unfortunately, my repo requires a very old version of iolib.  But it worked on CCL and CLISP at some point.
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17:25:31  morning
17:26:06 *homie* snores
17:26:13  lol
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17:32:18 *easyE* has a slow Lisp day.
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17:32:47  profile and optimize
17:33:14  Well, I'm adding docstrings to everything I care about...
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17:34:02  your family?
17:34:49  hehe, sorry just home from work so not feeling very serious
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17:39:21 *easyE* laughs.  "No, not quite the family.  But they're docstrings a a bit easier."
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17:40:59  ..
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18:20:18  is the following error basically heap exhaustion?
18:20:20 -!- joachifm [~joachim@212.7.195.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
18:20:22  Error opening /dev/tty: No such device or address
18:20:50  * fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 11047(tid 140737298396928):
18:20:52  no transport function for object 0x4009fa6f (widetag 0x72)
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18:25:24  Harag: Which arch is that?
18:25:30  (just curious)
18:25:58  you mean architecture?
18:26:01  Yeah.
18:26:03  ubuntu natty 64
18:26:07  sbcl
18:26:21  so x86_64...
18:26:26  yes
18:26:51  it seems to have happened during gc
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18:27:29  but usually sbcl gives you a game over error when then heap goes splat
18:28:34  http://goo.gl/oNbBF seems to indicate the error is coming from the gc.
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14:42:21 
14:42:21 -!- names: ccl-logbot heow cmm kushal el-maxo bugQ TDT linusp Joreji Guest00001 LiamH Krystof Guthur felideon Intensity ikki aperturefever Xof_ gozoner razieliyo katesmith kpreid rmarianski leo2007 lanthan akimbo nowhere_man mrSpec gffa nikodemus cbp Yuuhi replore slyrus ChibaPet sanjoyd rahul homie iwillig lester- insomniaSalt Jasko3 urandom__ madnificent Salamander xxxyyy macv jtza8 xan_ Ragnaroek daniel___ Adrinael fourier Bahman add^_ gravicappa aerique amb007
14:42:21 -!- names: ramus hlavaty taiyal dfox Davidbrcz npoektop mvilleneuve e-user gemelen lonstein cmpitg stepnem drdo kennyd catphive McMAGIC--Copy Jasko Nshag splittist varjag ubii tessier lifeng theBlackDragon acieroid Hundenn martinhex Qworkescence guther excelsior1979 Evanescence MoALTz fihi09` peterhil timjstewart ianmcorvidae CrazyEddy koisoke sausages_ The_Fellow ecraven kleppari sellout- _krappie_ Buganini joast bobbysmith007 peterhil` spurvewt workthrick kunwon1
14:42:21 -!- names: Xantoz lusory maxigas _3b Kenjin ivan4th sykopomp mathrick JuanDaugherty araujo sword pdo setmeaway krl froggey hugod Obfuscate phadthai Quadrescence kanru DrForr hohum_ r11t_ Tordek dostoyev1ky rootzlevel rotty_ levi s0ber deepfire gz fmu Ralith eli jrockway schoppenhauer vert2 arbscht wtetzner vsync foom rtoym akkartik_ yroeht_ johanbev_ redline6561_ tempire_ amaron super__ cools xale Patzy naryl mutewit cracauer tsuru StrmSrfr tritchey Euthydemus
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14:42:21 -!- names: cbbrowne zbigniew yan_ cYmen mpereira Quetzalcoatl_ rvncerr oconnore clop2 chr` clog setheus _8david antoszka fe[nl]ix peddie pjb __class__ ezakimak phryk srcerer boyscared hydo Tristam Yamazaki-kun joshe rsynnott Dodek Zhivago housel xristos ilmari felipe tomaw mornfall luis cmbntr_ billstclair Axioplase_ erk a7p dcrawford literal Hun k9quaint sshirokov CallToPower erg kloeri ve ozzloy lnostdal cipher frodef elliottjohnson johs guaqua kpal klutometis
14:42:21 -!- names: freiksenet Fade j_king jfleming SpitfireWP albino jsnell jeekl fds herbieB mtd elliottcable antifuchs Jabberwockey spacebat zakwilson Aisling easyE OliverUv njan Bucciarati galdor ineiros incandenza pp206 tty234 shachaf cods _main_ Bootvis df_aldur tychoish colazero specbot ok2 sirmacik kjellkt egn callen finnrobi codewad C-Keen Borbus
14:42:34 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-138-14.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp
14:42:34  Ahh, I'm trying to break the expression up into pieces ... looks like defconstant at top level is the solution, with #.a-constant in the expression.
14:43:08  I was trying to avoid top-level.
14:43:35 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.123.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
14:43:58  thanks!
14:45:33  reb: 99% of the time having a DEF-anything evaluated at anywhere other than toplevel is a sign that you're working against the grain
14:46:29  I agree ... just wanted the constant declaration closer in the source to its point of use.
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14:50:50  uhhuh, why there is no unintern restart for name conflict in sbcl :|
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14:57:28  freiksenet: maybe because you didn't add it yet! :)
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14:58:46  I think that 99% is a bit too high
14:58:54  (let ((x ..)) (defun ...)) is relatively common
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15:00:44  incf Krystof
15:01:03  Krystof: that's pretty ugly IMO. our code has tons of such things, it screws up find-def and folding in emacs
15:01:38  freiksenet: that's an editor-issue, not a code-issue
15:01:54  madnificent: development is done in editors.
15:02:20 pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp
15:02:24  and I don't really see any valid use case for this code in code-sense
15:02:33  foom: good point %)
15:03:31  Krystof: not sure that it's a good idea, though.
15:04:17  our code most has (labels ((utilities..)) (defun)) whcih I think should be converted to utility defuns instead
15:04:25  precludes and sort of thread safety, usually, as well
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15:05:37  redefinition becomes tricky too, you need to eval whole block under let, otherwise it will behave wrong, but that means you can no longer independetly reeval separate functions
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15:10:57  IDE/implementation integration issue. :)
15:11:12  you should be able to eval-in-lexenv to redefine a function inside an existing labels
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17:43:13  hola lisp critters
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17:52:17  I want to write some text to a file. When I try this: (with-open-file (*standard-output* "/home/eitan/data") (print "foobar")), the error is "value # is not of the expected type (AND CCL::CHARACTER-STREAM OUTPUT-STREAM)". It looks like `with-open-file' doesn't give me an output stream but rather an input stream? But.. huh?
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17:56:18 <_3b> :direction :output
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17:56:54  thanks
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18:06:52  hi
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19:40:17  Hey
19:40:48  Can somebody explain to me why (eval) is frowned up?
19:40:54  upon*
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19:42:03  most likely, it's a sign you're doing it wrong. EVAL itself is also problematic because it evaluates code in the null lexical environment.
19:42:23  Indecipherable: And it can be a security problem. Sort of like Bobby Tables.
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19:48:36 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-255-37.as43234.net] has joined #lisp
19:49:30  oh
19:50:14  I made this function : (defun min-l (mlist) (eval `(min ,@mlist)))
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19:51:14  (apply #'min mlist)?
19:52:09  Indecipherable: the main reason is that it eval is a very big weapon that is lost on most uses. As Bike's example shows, you can do with a lot less.
19:54:55 Soulman [~knute@101.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp
19:55:24  sykopomp: I've been curious about sheeple. Do you know a nice example where one can get the gist of prototype-based object systems?
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19:58:18  prxq: I don't know how I feel about Sheeple at this point.
19:58:20  Hi I have this example callback: http://paste.lisp.org/display/122847 Do you think there is a way to use (call) the C (that calls the lisp function) from a third application somehow?
19:59:02  It's there. It might be interesting, but at this point I'm neither fond of delegative prototype OO, nor do I think Sheeple is much more dynamic than CLOS when it matters.
20:00:50  you should promote your baby not express doubts!
20:02:18  sykopomp: I see.
20:02:44  francogrex: I see the lisp function calling the C instead (?)
20:02:58  ah sorry
20:03:13  prxq: they call each other actually here
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20:03:44  francogrex: I am afraid I don't understand your question
20:03:56  sykopomp: which are the cases that matter?
20:04:09 -!- TDT [~dthole@dhcpw81ffee4f.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: TDT]
20:04:37  ok here : do you think a third application / software that can call C, can call and use the C that is in itself calling a lisp?
20:04:43  francogrex: there's no reason you can't call something once you have enough marshalling
20:05:02  francogrex: that's more a question of proper linking, no?
20:05:38  francogrex: it also depends on the lisp. With ECL that should be relatively straightforward, IIRC
20:05:54  prxq: right but the lisp system would be called when the C is called it's like: applicationX -> C -> lisp
20:06:27  francogrex: in principle there is no problem.
20:07:36  I kow how to do it with ECL, wanted to try with other lisps (using something like the callback example of cffi)
20:07:43  francogrex: which players are we talking about (which lisp, which applicationX) - if one might ask?
20:08:14  francogrex: ah ok. Well, in sbcl you have to load the dynamic lib, so the application must exist in that form.
20:08:15  applicationX could be Excel (one can call C compiled dll from excel)
20:08:23  ohoho
20:08:41  well that sounds hairy. ECL might be your best bet
20:08:58  prxq: ok, yes in ecl I know it works
20:09:02  unless stuff has changed a lot.
20:09:34  francogrex: maybe clisp and corman cl.
20:09:57  no idea about sbcl, but I would bet that can't be done at the moment.
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20:11:56  prxq: yeah wanted sbcl actually. This week we realized that we've been exclusively using lisp and specifically sbcl for all programming... While ECL was the main a year ago...
20:12:28  interesting. What is your application domain?
20:13:00 antgreen` [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp
20:13:13  we're into statistical applications
20:13:40  use SAS R... sometimes maxima mathematica and the good ols excel
20:13:44  hedge fund stuff? :-)
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20:13:58  ?
20:14:12  forget it
20:14:32  francogrex: that was a bit of a joke.
20:15:06  i thought so but i didn't get 'hedge'
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20:23:00  hi
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20:23:46  is anyone interested in a simulation about a transformer feeding a ac/dc converter?
20:24:06  using my Lisp simulator :)
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20:31:47  :(
20:32:55  what do you do with an ac/dc ?
20:33:03  convert sound ?=
20:33:11  listening to Thunderstruck
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20:49:53  Does anyone here know - do javascript lambdas capture the *entire* lexical scope?
20:50:23  Modius: yeah, but the this reference is dependent on the context (I think of it as a special variable) (:
20:50:51  Modius: also note that some things turn function() expressions into strings, like on* handlers
20:51:08  (so no lexical context for you - make a named function with the lexical context, and pass that name)
20:51:26  I'm thinking of the performance/space ramifications. . . .  it looks to me like it's capturing every frame, whether used or not. . .
20:52:00  antifuchs:  Doesn't the named function still capture variables and thus the scope the same way?
20:52:01 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:52:07  others probably can comment on how to implement lexical scope efficiently (:
20:52:23  Oh I'm just interested in what it's actually *doing*
20:52:38  yes it does, but you put the function name into the onclick handler, not the function represented by a text string
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20:53:23  antifuchs:  What exactly do you mean (I assume there's some way to avoid capturing the whole thing that you're telling me; but I don't get it)
20:54:01  element.onclick = function (event) { somethingInScope.foo() }; will break because the function is serialized to its string representation
20:54:14  ie what lands on that handler is no closure
20:54:38  I'm pretty sure I've done that and the closure worked, hmm. . ..
20:55:05  but do function myHandler(event) {somethingInScope.foo() } ; element.onclick = myHandler; // will work though
20:55:16  must not have tested it in all available DOMs (-;
20:55:19  I'm sure it fails in IE
20:55:20  anyway
20:55:30  highly tangential to this channel (:
20:56:10  Reason I'm asking here. . . A: Javascript channel is invite-only, B: I'm more likely to find people who won't give me blank stares here
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21:24:26  Modius: odd. Joining #javascript was not different from joining any other channel
21:24:39  Modius: blank stares - that's another matter :-)
21:24:53  It tells me it's invite-only
21:25:22  that's just because they want to seem important
21:30:12 urandom__ [~user@p548A6D5D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp
21:30:24  well, then I am important, it seems
21:30:32 *prxq* thinks it rather likely
21:31:00  Modius: jokes aside - are you registered?
21:31:07  prxq:  Yes
21:31:26   /join #javascript
21:31:31  that worked for me
21:31:39  prxq:  Yes, that's what i did too and it didn't work.  Maybe someone invited you once :)
21:32:12  maybe your ip block is banned and the message is rather lame.
21:32:23  I've never been invited, and I joined fine.
21:32:45  Modius: you are being discriminated
21:32:51  The channel seems to be called ##javascript, though?
21:33:20  Aah - I got into ##javascript thanks
21:34:27  Modius: which is odd. I didn't see you join
21:34:39  Embarassment - maybe I was already there
21:34:42  I saw Bike but not you
21:34:55  ah yes there you are
21:35:05  Sorry for the dumbness - however, I still think this was a better place to talk scope
21:35:37  ...or talk lambda. Now even C++ has it.
21:35:57  (some version baked in hell, but still)
21:36:22  A tragedy of lambda in ObjC/C++ is that the verbosity and handling requirements mean it's a hard environment to learn the concepts from scratch.
21:36:31  (The cleanest probably being Scheme/SICP lectures)
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21:36:45  You have to explicitly lay out what variables you want to capture, don't you?
21:37:03  No, fortunately; but you have to mention them if you want to distinguish copies from references.
21:37:27  C++ lambda defaults are okay for stateless case when you have smart pointers in lexical scope.
21:37:28  and I guess memory management gets fiercely constipated
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21:38:09  I like the mechanics of the ObjC ones, which get the benefit of a sort of "single reference type" when you are using NSObject * pointers.
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21:41:56  It's funny - for all the difficulties sliding them into the languages, the qualities of allowing mutation of variables, statements (i.e. useful for events), and only capturing what they need are found in all the lambdas of languages designed by committee.
21:42:29  The "capture everything" thing (Javascript and Ruby) and the "Great and wonderful" Python lambda designed by 1 person.
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21:46:19  Modius: what do you mean by "everything"? Can you access not explicitly captured variables from within a lambda? something like taking the closure returned by (let ((a 1) (b 2)) #'(lambda (x) (eval x))), passing it 'b, and having it return 2?
21:47:02  prxq:  I'm going by measurements where I'm declaring a variable as a big array, filling it up, and watching memory grow as I capture (lambda () 1)
21:47:37  I make no claims on them being accessible, just that if I declare them memory use of the browser grows as I accumulate otherwise nothing-sized function ()   { }
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21:48:48  why does the book I'm reading say to use #' to quote functions? (apply '+ (3 5 7)) seems to work fine in CLISP...
21:49:17  taiyal:  apply takes a function designator.  A function designator can be a function ref OR a symbol that denotes that function
21:49:22  taiyal: apply, and other functions of the same ilk, can also take a symbol
21:49:26  #'+ !=   '+
21:49:27  Modius: i see
21:49:42  okay, thanks
21:49:57  and they don't mean the same thing. 'foo will get the global definition for the function FOO, while #'foo will look up in the lexical environment at the point where it's evaluated.
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21:50:09  taiyal:  Also, the meaning is technically different.  #'my-func means the function value of the function *now*, 'my-func means look it up at call time.
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21:52:53  Modius: so you allocate a huge array, look at memory usage, create (lambda () 1), and see memory usage increase dramatically?
21:53:42  prxq: he looks for memory leaks from repeated (let ((nonce (make-huge-array))) (lambda () 1)).
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21:56:47  pkhuong, so 'fun cant catch flet/labels definition ?
21:56:48  pkhuong: you would see that in CL too, unless by chance the GC ran
21:57:13  i mean, it will catch global one
21:57:13  prxq: right, so you look for leaks.
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21:58:34  pkhuong: and the claim is that ruby and python leak a lot, i gather,
21:59:31  prxq: it's that ruby keeps references to the nonce. While python has issues with mutation due to the identical syntax for initialisation and assignment.
22:00:33  ok i see.
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22:11:47  pjb: On June 14th you said: "(notevery (function null) list) <=> (some (function identity) list)". That's wrong ;P
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22:13:31  Hum. I think the title should mention "SBCL officially in Git (and github mirror)". That's kind of a big deal, at least to me.
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22:38:08  pkhuong: You there?
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22:45:28  Hexstream: Find an example where it's wrong!  =every ; =some ; ¬=notevery ; ¬=notany ; list  ¬¬list <-> (some (function identity) list)  (notevery (function null) list)
22:45:28  Hexstream: (defun equiv (a b) (eq (not a) (not b)))  (mapcar (lambda (list) (equiv (some (function identity) list) (notevery (function null) list)))  '(() (nil) (t) (nil nil) (nil t) (t nil) (t t))) --> (t t t t t t t)
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22:59:08  hi
22:59:17  I'm not doing anything special, but I have a doubt about lisp
22:59:25  can I use it with C++ to make a game, for example?
22:59:51  You could use it by itself to make a game.  There's an SDL library.
23:00:04  I've read some actual games do it, and I'm just learning now and finding it very useful for games
23:00:31  Bike: but, that bindings, are the same than they are for C++ for example?
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23:01:13  Why don't you look over the documentation yourself? http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/wiki/LispbuilderSDL
23:01:25  anyway, can I do something hybrid with lisp and C++? some interface that joins them two
23:01:36  razieliyo: what would C++ be involved?
23:02:15 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
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23:02:46  I don't really know just by now, but I know better that lang than lisp, but having the feature of using lisp too in my programs would be quite funny and would make the job hardless
23:03:34  razieliyo: http://elliottslaughter.com/2011/06/blackthorn-3d
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23:04:17  so, you suggest me to do the game entirely in lisp, isn't that?
23:04:44  razieliyo: now, you may use foreign libraries, to write your lisp game, but C++ libraries are the worst, the most difficult to use.  If you can find an equivalent library with a C API, it will be easier to use from Lisp.
23:05:00  razieliyo: yes, forget about C++, just write your game in Lisp.
23:05:22  pjb: ok, thanks, I'll take your words =)
23:05:38 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp
23:05:50  anyway, now I'm just too noob with lisp, but I'm forging plans in my head for making some actual game
23:05:56  a simple 2D adventure one
23:06:18  razieliyo: luckily, there are several examples, both 2D and 3D.
23:06:34  http://www.cliki.net/Game
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23:06:43  pjb: anyway, one day I'd like to know if I can do what I told you, with C++ or C, I don't really care
23:07:11  pjb: are them all written with SDL?
23:07:28  well, I answer my own question
23:07:30  they aren't
23:08:02  there are engines too, interesting
23:09:25  I am unhappy that some strings produced by SBCL cannot be readably printed.
23:10:27  Some Common Lisp functions, such as lisp-implementation-version, return base-strings.
23:10:52 pnq [~nick@AC82398F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp
23:10:56  Other similar functions return arrays of characters.
23:11:19  SBCL refuses to readably print base strings.
23:13:01 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@177.42.212.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:14:21  switch to clisp or ccl.
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23:20:55  Otherwise, those strings (and other results from CL functions), are often internal objects that you would probably be better advised to copy as soon as you get them.
23:22:38  pjb: I can coerce base strings to arrays of char using COERCE.  Is there an easier way?
23:23:15  pjb: Mostly I'm unhappy with the inconsistency.  I never know what kind of string I'll get.
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23:24:09  What do you mean that it doesn't print readably?
23:25:25  (let ((*print-readably* t)) (print (string 'cons))) signals a condition
23:25:44  (let ((*print-readably* t)) (print (string 'foobar1234))) works
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23:26:59  Oh, I see.
23:27:23  sbcl is the only implementation issuing this error message: "CONS" cannot be printed readably.
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23:29:31  pjb: I would be happier to never see base strings, unless I explicitly made one.
23:29:51  reb: you can write a compatibility package.
23:30:24  pjb: I could just hack on the SBCL source code.
23:30:45  reb: in IBCL, there's an example of how you can "shadow" a package, so that the "COMMON-LISP" package would not be the native one. http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html
23:32:40  Thanks.  I've done that sort of thing before.  My specific problem is that I'm using the Swank protocol for low-rent RPC.
23:32:45 joshmc [~josh@c-98-248-16-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
23:33:15  Hello! I'd like to generate some thumbnails from my photos. Is cl-magick a good choice? or should I use something newer to manipulate on images?
23:33:25 bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-249.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
23:34:01  ... I'd like the communications channel to be filled with objects printed readably.
23:34:16  mrSpec: I ended up just using the command-line utility.
23:34:37  :(
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23:36:11  mrSpec, it's a pretty reasonable tool for the command line
23:36:25 Bahman [~bahman@2.146.16.12] has joined #lisp
23:36:28  and for one off processes it's a reasonable solution
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23:37:20  mrSpec: it was actually very easy that way, even though it was very easy with http://www.nil.at/software/lisp-magick.html
23:38:11  ok thanks
23:38:14  mrSpec: I used cl-gd: http://weitz.de/cl-gd/ for that. I haven't used cl-magick, so I can't compare, but cl-gd worked fine for me.
23:38:14  I'll read this
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23:38:35  mrSpec: there's a thumbnail example right there :)
23:38:40  I see :D
23:39:12  but again, the command-line version was only a line or two, and I needed to install the binary either way :)
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00:53:07  Greetings Lispers!
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00:57:43  mrSpec: you can generate thumbnails with opticl!
00:58:41  e.g.: (defun make-thumbnail-image (file image &key (y 128) (x 128) (pad t)) (write-image-file file (fit-image-into image y x :pad pad)))
00:59:32  and then: (make-thumbnail-image "/tmp/seahorse-thumb.png" (read-jpeg-stream (drakma:http-request "http://photos.cyrusharmon.org/img/s8/v12/p497325516-6.jpg" :want-stream t :force-binary t)))
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01:45:37  ls
01:46:44  .
01:46:45  ..
01:46:49  .ssh
01:46:51  .plan
01:46:57  .bash_profile
01:46:59 -!- fourier [~user@h-198-12.A176.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
01:47:06  ?
01:47:08  C-c C-c
01:48:20  mon_key: Vivitron was typing in the wrong window. I just responded with stuff you'd expect to find in your home directory. *I* thought it was funny...
01:48:55   it _was_ funny  (mostly) [:
01:50:00  Hmm... the IRC shell. This has potential.
01:50:25  jfleming: pretty sure botnets have been using IRC for a shell for quite awhile now.
01:51:07  just at HTML5/css3/js and you'll have Gnome3
01:51:27  I laughed:) eased my embarassment a little bit
01:52:45  Vivitron: we all do it from time to time. It could be worse: you could have typed in an ssh line and then your password - now _that_ would be embarrassing.
01:53:10 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@96.31.242.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
01:53:55  Or worse, attempted to evaulate some obviously non-brilliant Lisp
01:53:56  mon_key: I know, but I mean as an interactive shell for the OS. We have BASH, scsh, even the Doom interface for system administration. An IRC shell would let you have bots.
01:54:07  Or that, yes.
01:55:40  Doom interface?
01:56:54 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
01:57:55  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/doom/
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02:05:23  Hi all!
02:12:12 super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp
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02:20:31  slyrus_: thanks :)
02:24:58  foom: thank god
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06:26:20 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out]
06:26:20  good morning
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06:29:20  morning mvilleneuve
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07:36:34 *aerique* lost his reader macro virginity last night
07:37:27  does anyone have comments on this macro?: http://paste.lisp.org/display/122860
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07:47:35  aerique: you could use symbol-macros for that.
07:48:01  (define-symbol-macro @turn (turn *state*))
07:48:55  aerique: of course, if you have a lot of slots, you can write a macro to generate the define-symbol-macro forms.
07:50:54  pjb: hi
07:50:56  pjb: that looks easier, thanks
07:51:00  pjb: almost done, with my project!
07:52:34  Good.
07:55:27  pjb: circuit_simulator fo Lisp people
07:55:33  s/fo/for
07:56:54  aerique: are trying to turn a wheel?
07:56:59  aerique: are you trying to turn a wheel?
07:57:31  Posterdati: no, it's just an example
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07:58:05  ah ok
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07:59:18 Guthur [c0c1f50f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.15] has joined #lisp
07:59:44  or my sense of humour hasn't activated yet
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08:28:51  morning#
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08:34:20  hi
08:34:48  is there anyone using googlecode? I can't place an image on the project home page
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09:01:42  http://code.google.com/p/circuit/
09:02:26  http://lisperweasel.blogspot.com/
09:02:30  please comment :)
09:02:50  I'm testing a new release
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11:16:41  any ucw hackers out there?
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11:29:04  alama: do you need an electrical circuit solver program?
11:29:18  Posterdati: ?
11:29:22  alama: in Lisp obviously
11:29:34 jdz_ [~jdz@89.201.96.231] has joined #lisp
11:29:51  i was looking for someone who knows uncommon web (ucw)
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11:33:55  how does one checkout or clone the stable branch of some git repo directly ?
11:34:34 -!- jdz_ [~jdz@89.201.96.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
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11:35:55  git clone $URL
11:35:55 taiyal [~taiyal@bb-216-195-184-102.gwi.net] has joined #lisp
11:36:19  I guess file:///... would work, or just /...
11:36:20 Evanescence [~chris@122.237.40.122] has joined #lisp
11:36:21  no no that gets me the standard devel HEAD
11:36:35  i want just the stable branch tree
11:36:59  Let's ask Linus.
11:36:59  well somehow switching to it after i cloned the master origin/HEAD did not work here
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11:38:41  hmmm, maybe my git version is too old
11:38:52  or there was left clutter from the old checkout
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11:39:41  time to go read about LISP on the bus... ttyl as "taiyallica"
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12:03:44  for the eclm meating, how much gain/fun/all-the-stuff-you-get-from-meetings should I expect to get on both dinners (seperately).  I find it all quite costly, yet that's not because the price is injust market-wise.
12:04:16 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
12:05:34  madnificent: that would depend on your social skills, and who you happen to dine with.
12:05:58  pjb: can you give me a probability distribution? ^_^
12:06:10  Those are lispers!
12:06:26  So you have good chances to have interesting discussions.
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12:06:37  pjb: also, that's apart from not having defined what the real gain is.  plotting on an absolute scale will be incorrect, to say the least.
12:06:59  pjb: on both dinners, that is?
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12:34:42  Hi all!
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12:38:54  Hi Bahman
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12:40:44  Hello madnificent
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12:50:26  will changing the branch to the new one automatically select the files of that branch for the compile or do the files from the main/HEAD still cause conflicts ?
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13:18:41  ahhh
13:18:44  its a wonderful day
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13:24:55  Can anyone point me to a hunchentoot tutorial, which works for the current version of hunchentoot? The ones that are pointed out at the hunchentoot site all seem to be out of date
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13:53:58  phryk: the first one seemed to mostly fine for me, http://www.adampetersen.se/articles/lispweb.htm
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15:26:09  Does anyone find it annoying how, in Emacs, lines in the `loop' macro are first indented 4 spaces past the opening paren, but then once it knows for sure that that line starts with a symbol, the line gets indented back to 2 spaces past the opening paren?
15:28:00  zort-: yes
15:28:00  Well. Not using loop would solve that nicely. :)
15:28:00  i would find that annoying, although i never leave LOOP alone on the line
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15:28:54  stassats: Well, the problem is that if the first LOOP entry goes on the same line as the LOOP, then I'd expect the next line to line up with the first loop arguments, but alas, they don't. That's why I always have the loop on its own
15:29:26  I usually put first keyword on on line with loop,so I gt thm all lined up
15:29:26  it does
15:29:27  emacs-lisp-mode does it better.
15:29:30  ChibaPet: without LOOP, one has to use stuff like DOTIMES and the likes. Yuch
15:30:02  loke: all keywords in my LOOPs are aligned to the same line
15:30:29  stassats: Not for me, the next line indents only 3 characters.
15:30:44  that means you didn't configure it properly
15:30:53  stassats: I didn't configure it at all :-)
15:31:00  stassats: I'm using stock Emacs indentation rules
15:31:15  and i'm not
15:31:24  stassats: Well that much is obvious :-)
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15:31:51  and i'm now using slime-indentation, and i don't know anymore which configuration is responsible for what
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15:32:18  loke: but i had the same behaviour without slime-indentation, so, try (setq lisp-simple-loop-indentation 1 lisp-loop-keyword-indentation 6 lisp-loop-forms-indentation 6)
15:32:28  OK, let me try
15:33:09  That's nice.
15:33:48  woah. Neat
15:34:38  that just went into my .emacs
15:35:19  that works without (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-indentation)) ?
15:36:32  felideon: Those options exist in cl-indent.el, so probably.
15:36:34  felideon: yep seems like it
15:36:45  Now I enabled slime-indentation, what's the advantage to using that?
15:37:19  felideon: i think you need (setq lisp-loop-indent-subclauses nil lisp-loop-indent-forms-like-keywords t) for slime-indentation to get the same thing
15:37:46  loke: you need to use the latest slime to get the benefits of slime-indentation
15:37:58  stassats: I'm using slime from CVS
15:38:06  stassats: So I suppose I am. But what are those benefits?
15:38:26  better indentation!
15:38:27  Probably those extra options like lisp-lambda-list-keyword-alignment
15:38:55  actually, on this machine I'm using slime from QL, but that should still be OK< yes?
15:39:03  no
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15:39:10 -!- s0ber is now known as s0ber_
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15:39:19  will, it will be ok, but in the next QL release
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15:44:31  Speaking of QL... I just updated a bunch of files (pulled from the repository) and I simply ran (ql:quickload :my-project) in order to have everything reloaded/recompiled. However, it's still using the old files. Is there a way to force recompilation after the files have changed?
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16:39:17  holy cats, Xach is giving a talk about quicklisp at ECLM? (:
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22:34:04 
22:34:04 -!- names: ccl-logbot Evanescence mrSpec ignis_ sonnym gigamonkey pnq ltriant chu_ REPLeffect zmv Demosthenes sellout- jmbr alama fourier waaaaargh pchrist sabalaba kpreid tunes amb007 Joreji madnificent _schulte_ alfa_y_omega tsuru benny macrobat killerboy rread realitygrill Zephyrus pdlogan foocraft Qworkescence pavelludiq silenius naiv msponge splittist2 xan_ sword` jewel Spion DGASAU naryl bzzbzz zfx cools _KY_ gffa add^_ ikki cheier Bahman njan sacho Bike Madsy
22:34:04 -!- names: derekv felideon kushal tvaalen Soulman kennyd kiuma JuanDaugherty urandom__ Katibe Modius joekarma dmiles_afk Jasko2 deepfire schmrkc daniel__ mornfall Yuuhi serichsen cmm pinterface juniorroy Salamander dfox Oddity dlowe johanbev insomniaSalt BrianRice finnrobi hydo abeaumont Khisanth el-maxo asynchrony Phoodus phrontist stepnem nannto__ StrmSrfr AntiSpamMeta Borbus egn kjellkt luis gkeith mutewit aperturefever quasisane incandenza pdo chr` CallToPower
22:34:04 -!- names: Jasko rsynnott mathrick Tordek zenlunatic s0ber bobbysmith007 nowhereman nullman hargettp_ algorist_ Nshag loke drdo naiv_ cmatei vert2 sharkasgo confab peddie easyE peterhil` joast anonchik npoektop rvncerr Yamazaki-kun quotemstr jfleming McMAGIC--Copy sykopomp fe[nl]ix ianmcorvidae skalawag La0fer ASau C-Keen daimrod fihi09 cpt_nemo yroeht z0d CrazyEddy amaron_ jsoft atumtal guther joshee kleppari tic Pathin schoppenhauer mon_key lolsuper_ billstclair
22:34:04 -!- names: araujo spurvewt em setmeaway martinhex julius2 Euthydemus neaer clog daedric rtoym sshirokov jso michelp theBlackDragon jamief peterhil mgr zanea mikejs ramus Quetzalcoatl_ hugod housel derrida reb pkhuong sanjoyd sirmacik Pepe_ ok2 cYmen mtd ezakimak ``Erik xristos parabolize nuba DrForr aoh tali713 dostoyevsky zort callen Buganini_ Intensity Xof_ slyrus rahul Adrinael lonstein tessier acieroid koisoke ecraven _krappie_ kunwon1 lusory _3b krl froggey
22:34:04 -!- names: Obfuscate phadthai Quadrescence kanru hohum_ r11t_ rootzlevel rotty_ levi fmu Ralith eli jrockway arbscht wtetzner foom akkartik_ redline6561_ tempire_ xale Patzy koollman p_l|backup pok larva sid3k wivlaro PissedNumlock yahooooo eno micro oGMo Posterdati churib djinni` |3b| milkpost mal__ jiacobucci groundnuty cpc26 scode_ adeht rabite_ afa_ euphidime_ hyko zbigniew yan_ oconnore setheus _8david antoszka pjb __class__ phryk srcerer boyscared Tristam joshe
22:34:04 -!- names: Dodek Zhivago ilmari felipe tomaw cmbntr_ Axioplase_ erk colazero tychoish df_aldur _main_ cods shachaf tty234 pp206 a7p dcrawford literal Hun k9quaint erg kloeri ve ozzloy cipher elliottjohnson johs guaqua klutometis freiksenet Fade j_king SpitfireWP albino jsnell jeekl fds herbieB elliottcable antifuchs Jabberwockey spacebat zakwilson Aisling OliverUv Bucciarati galdor ineiros
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22:36:29  Hi, I have a question about one of the code examples in the book "Land of Lisp". It's from the game Orc Battle - there is an init-monsters function that uses random make-struct functions from a global list of such functions called *monster-builders*
22:36:35  I've pasted it at: http://paste.lisp.org/display/123010
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22:37:35  I understand why the 2nd version works but I don't get how in the first version (from the book) the result of the called function ends up getting set into an element of the array. Am I missing something obvious?
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22:40:05  ignis_: clhs map
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22:40:30  ignis_: notice that the resulting vector is not the array made by (make-array *monster-num*).
22:40:56  ignis_: the assignment to x is a red herring; it doesn't do anything.
22:42:30  ignis_: indeed, in those situation, I'd use loop rather than map: (setf *monsters* (loop :repeat *monster-num* :collect (funcall ...)))
22:42:54  In typical GC design, say something in generation 3 is told to point to something in Generation 0 - is the Gen0 object's promotion chance biased by this fact?  Or does it go by time/number of marks?
22:43:01  ignis_: possibly with a coerce if a vector is really needed: (setf *monsters* (coerce (loop :repeat *monster-num* :collect (funcall ...)) 'vector))
22:43:39  Modius: I'd guess it depends on the exact GC algorithm used.
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22:44:24  A few years ago, I had some fun implementing the COBOL  EVALUATE  statement in  Common Lisp.  Actually, it's a kind of multiple-value CASE: http://paste.lisp.org/display/123011
22:44:24  pjb, pkhuong: a hah.. I see, thanks. Yes, sbcl gives a compiler warning about the unused variable x so it does seem slightly odd compared to looping
22:44:51  I managed to make a standalone executable (and library) of ecl that is ~ 300k of size! i defy any tree shaker to do less!
22:45:44  Modius: depends on the expected usage. GHC does that sort of thing, because it's tuned for a low mutation rate.
22:45:54  francogrex: aren't we forgetting the /usr/lib/libecl.so and /lib/libc.so.6 ?
22:46:00  francogrex: ldd your-executable
22:47:02  pjb: I'm telling you it works man. I already used the dynamic library on a PC that knows nothing of lisp
22:47:19  356 k that's all there is
22:48:04  if you have a pc/windows I can give you to try
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22:58:03  try thgis: cl.dyndns-ip.com getting tired and sleepy
23:04:26  pkhuong: I have stopped wondering about the opinions of vsedach a while ago (-:
23:04:30  pkhuong: but it seems so
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23:10:38  pkhuong: but see http://carcaddar.blogspot.com/2011/06/continuation-based-web-applications.html?showComment=1307999914338#c4343197559771182004 (:
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04:33:21  hola lispy critters
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05:21:15  hi
05:22:33  I just came across this --> http://www.mikemac.com/mikemac/clim/cover.html
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05:48:50  i've not found any with google, but are there examples of using weblocks and clsql to provide a "datasheet" type of rendering of data in a database?
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05:55:47  yates: does this help you? http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/ui-dsl.html
05:56:21  perhaps this one - it's lengthy, but contentful: http://teddyb.org/rlp/tiki-index.php?page=Learning+About+Weblocks
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06:36:29  good morning
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07:11:34  any advice on micro-webframeworks?
07:11:45  princ?
07:11:57  wee bit too micro
07:12:05  j/k :)
07:12:31  something like Flask. That looked pretty nifty
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07:17:32  tic: cl-routes?
07:17:49  Clack?
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07:19:40  tic: restas?
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07:20:19  any of them maintained? clack doesn't seem to be not very up-to-date
07:20:49  Hm. Maybe a microframework isn't what I want.  What's the more frameworkey system I want to use?
07:21:30  last commit for restas was 3rd of april this year
07:22:01  mmhm
07:22:02  restas is a rather complete systme
07:22:04  *system
07:22:11  the other thing I'm looking at is weblocks.
07:22:33  latest update in clack is 5 days ago
07:23:25  and it's basically an idea for Rack/WSGI for Common Lisp
07:25:52  The clack tutorial is a bit ... short.
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07:30:06  yeah, the tutorial is lacking in clack. doesn't seem very finished.
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07:45:46  You mean hunchentoot isn't a framework? :)
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07:46:26  I think I'll have to give weblocks a shot.
07:46:37  see if I can use something more html-ish instead of doing html-in-lisp
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07:47:49  There's html-template, if you want to handle the HTML outside of lisp, as well as something called talcl (iirc).
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07:48:04  jfleming, cool. do you know if it'll work w/ weblocks?
07:48:48  tic: I've no idea, sorry, as I've never tried weblocks. The idea of a continuation-based web app just doesn't appeal to me.
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07:48:58  jfleming, alright
07:49:33  tic: well, caveman mentions CL-EMB and cl-markup ... https://github.com/fukamachi/caveman/
07:50:15 *cheier* has clacked up at http://76.107.19.58:5000/
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08:35:53  flip214: hi
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08:36:37  flip214: my project is at a turning point: I exchanged clem with gsl :)
08:37:13  flip214: just to improve solution speed and stability
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08:50:40  Posterdati: hi, fine!
08:54:00  Posterdati: performance is better?
08:54:09  flip214: yes, much speed
08:54:19  flip214: twice the speed
08:54:41  that's fine, if it gives correct results ;-)
08:54:59  I can give you much more performance, if you accept a higher margin of error ;)
08:55:09  more accurate, that's because it performs LU decomposition with pivoting
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08:58:22  I've already used some libraries for SVD, but I'm not that familiar with the algorithms used for matrix operations and their pros/cons
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09:22:28  Hello!
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09:47:34  hello
09:48:39  can i specialize pretty printer only on lambdas that appear in my hash table?
09:51:20  I'm implementing conses, lists plists etc and their supporting functions with lambda for fun.  I'm looking for a way to have those structures printed in repl
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09:59:58  lester-: you could maybe refine your use of lambdas instead, to implement some kind of introspection
10:00:39  When given a specific value for input (or a key), they would spit out their content.
10:01:55  Axioplase_: that reminds me of the closures in Let Over Lambda ...
10:02:16 *|3b|* can't think of any portable way to do so
10:02:25  Axioplase I could but I wanted to just type list at repl and have the content printed
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10:03:04  flip214: I haven't read LOL yet, but that's also one way to implement objects. Using a key trick might allow you not to have to use an explicit calling convention.
10:03:10  this isn't possible with pretty printer?
10:03:19 <|3b|> possibly some implementation specific introspection facility would let you distinguish them from other functions, in which case you could use a pprint dispatch on functions
10:03:21  hi
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10:03:30 <|3b|> and from there check for the specific closures
10:04:54  how about another hash, where the keys are EQ to the functions, and the value is the printed representation?
10:06:35 <|3b|> true, i guess if you don't mind storing an extra reference to every cons, you can do it portably
10:06:36  I could do that, but SET-PPRINT-DISPATCH accepts a type, meaning I would still override printer for all functions?
10:07:30 <|3b|> either with an EQL specialized print-object method, or with a FUNCTION entry in pprint-dispatch table that looks it up in a table to verify it is the proper type
10:08:09  oh I thought print-object couldn't work, as I'm not using classes
10:08:23 <|3b|> you are
10:08:33 <|3b|> just not user-defined ones
10:08:41  the power of CLOS/MOP?
10:08:42  lambda's are classes?
10:08:58  lester-: at least, objects I guess :)
10:08:59 <|3b|> pretty much everything is an instance of some class or another
10:09:19  hi
10:09:39  should i care about "undefined function:  " compiler warning ?
10:09:54 <|3b|> (class-of (lambda ())) => # in SBCL
10:10:20  it's the same in clisp too. is this a portable class name
10:10:24 <|3b|> Night-hacks: depends on whether you plan to define those functions before you call them or not
10:10:35 <|3b|> clhs function
10:10:58 <|3b|> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_fn.htm
10:11:10  |3b|: yeah i've defined them before calling.
10:11:25 <|3b|> FUNCTION is required to be a class, not sure if that specific class is required to be the exact class of an arbitrary lambda though
10:11:40 *|3b|* would expect it to at least be a super-class if not though
10:12:34 <|3b|> Night-hacks: if you can arrange for them to be loaded before compiling things that use them (or defined in the same compilation unit) to avoid the warnings, i probably would... easier to see important warnings if there aren't less important ones for them to hide in
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10:21:19 <|3b|> lester-: be careful adding pprint-dispatch for all functions if you can't somehow distinguish your CONS closures, consider what happens if you try to print something like #'QUIT (or some function that accepts arbitrary args and does something bad), if you try to call it to get the CAR or CDR
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10:31:28  |3b| yes I took that into consideration
10:31:48  sorry got bad system crash
10:32:00  I've tried the print-object route first, but it seems that neither the format nor the repl use that function for printing
10:32:32  (defmethod print-object ((fun function) stream) (format stream "test"))
10:33:00  only worked for (print-object (lambda ()) nil)
10:33:01 *|3b|* isn't sure specializing a CL: generic function on (only) a CL: class is allowed
10:34:11 <|3b|> might also depend on whether you use the pretty-printer or not (~s vs ~a, or *print-pretty*)
10:34:39  *print-pretty* is set to t
10:35:38  same result on sbcl and clisp, only print-object is affected. but IIRC with my own classes, print-object is used in format and repl as well
10:36:28  is this a bug?
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10:36:55 *|3b|* suspects not, but is too lazy to find the bit of the spec i'm thinking of
10:37:05  or is format not required to use my own print-object for built in types
10:38:51 <|3b|> if you aren't allowed to define such methods, it is reasonable for format to assume you didn't do so
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10:40:19 *|3b|* is sort of surprised it accepted the method if that is the case though, at least for sbcl
10:40:54  It is not conforming indeed, to add a print-object  method on standard and built-in classes.
10:41:11  lester-: therefore you should not be suprised that your method is not called.
10:41:19  yes
10:41:38  But you could define your own generic function, and your own print.
10:42:08  could I get this working with set-pprint-dispatch ?
10:42:22  you could define your own pprint too.
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10:43:22  Which is the reason why sicl is interesting: you'd have modular sources of CL usable in CL.
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10:47:12  nice, it worked
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10:49:09  when setting a new pprint for function, I don't suppose it's possible to get default output for the functions I'm not interested in?
10:49:44  lester-: just remember the old value, and pass the arguments along?
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10:51:34  you mean to recreate the output myself?  it's probably different on different implementations though
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10:53:38 <|3b|> no, just store the function returned by pprint-dispatch and call it yourself
10:53:39 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5B32660B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
10:53:44 <|3b|> or call print-object
10:53:59  ah ok
10:54:26  pjb: hi. remember, http://paste.lisp.org/display/122995 ?
10:54:36 <|3b|> or modify a custom pprint-dispatch-table, and use the original one to print it
10:55:00  Night-hacks: hi! Isn't it Morning-hacks now?
10:55:39  yeah it's been under development to be all time hacks !!
10:55:42  I suspected that calling print-object in my pprint won't do nice things :)
10:56:04  I'll store the old function
10:56:28  anyway, i wonder it goes, to infinite loop
10:56:52  yes
10:56:57  it must ask for input in : parse-sign function
10:57:38  No. parse-sign is called parse-sign, not request-input-and-parse-sign.
10:58:13 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:58:59  but it read's from stream
10:59:07  From A stream.
11:00:36  Night-hacks: yesterday, I told you: 20:03:30  You could use: (with-input-from-string (input (read-line *query-io*)) (parse-input  input))  (and modify parse-numbers to parse number* till the end of file instead of till the "exit" string.
11:00:36   
11:01:39  got it now
11:02:32  That said, sometimes you want to add a scanner or parser layer over streams, eg. when you have a LL(n) language to parse, to remember the next few characters or tokens.
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11:06:11  hmm there's a problem, *print-pprint-dispatch* doesn't have any entry for 'function until I put it myself
11:07:02  CL-USER> *PRINT-PPRINT-DISPATCH* => (*PRINT-PPRINT-DISPATCH*)
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11:08:05  i don't think i can get default printing of function? print-object calls my pprint (as expected)
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11:12:58  I think I made this way more complicated than I should have. I"ll dump hash table and function pprint, and wrap the lambda inside a struct
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11:19:06  how about removing your pprint within the pprint, before calling print-object? :)
11:20:12  that would work i guess :O
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11:23:59  kennyd: that's racy.
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11:27:57  does one speak of Qi here?
11:29:03  ttyl work
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