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reset by peer] 06:39:05 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:06 syntard [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:28 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:39:43 symbole_` [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:14 smanek [~smanek@adsl-70-232-160-18.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:24 Jesus f'ing christ it's hard to dynamically add slots to CLOS classes 06:40:30 -!- mega1 [~quassel@adsl-63-195-37-158.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:41:28 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@167.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:41:59 is it? 06:42:07 lnostdal [~Lars@167.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:43:41 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:43:50 -!- symbole_ [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:44:52 -!- smanek [~smanek@adsl-70-232-160-18.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:46:04 seangrove: Just add it to the source and redefine the class (say C-c C-c) what's hard about that? 06:46:51 seangrove: Or is this just another case of drawing conclusions based on incomplete knowledge as opposed to figuring out how it's done? 06:47:11 beach: that doesn't sound dynamic 06:48:28 stassats: I guess I need a definition of "dynamic" then. This is typically done while the application is running, and I call that dynamic. But perhaps a different use case was meant. 06:48:35 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:48:46 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:48:59 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:51 Aisling [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 06:53:24 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-218.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 06:55:39 chemuduguntar [~ravi@118-93-189-209.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:56:39 to use all the cores available what generally a lisper does ? threads ? 06:57:45 -!- symbole_` [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:57:47 -!- longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has quit [Quit: longshot] 06:59:30 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-56.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:59:46 the same as any other programmer, yes 07:00:30 realistically a lisper wouldn't use explicit parellisation 07:00:32 *sp 07:00:47 beach: Yes, sorry, I meant programmatically 07:01:22 It seems like MOP could do it (I'm not really familiar with it), or some combination or macros 07:01:58 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:02:05 Can I tell which slots a class has? 07:02:20 c2mop:class-slots 07:02:30 and c2mop:class-direct-slots 07:03:02 c2mop? 07:03:54 minion: tell me about c2mop 07:03:56 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``c2mop''. 07:04:05 minion: please tell seangrove about closer-mop 07:04:06 seangrove: direct your attention towards closer-mop: Closer to MOP is a compatibility layer that rectifies many of the absent or incorrect MOP features as detected by MOP Feature Tests. http://www.cliki.net/closer-mop 07:04:30 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:38 Oh, that looks perfect 07:05:40 Thanks! 07:05:51 (I think) 07:06:04 It should be straightforward. 07:06:15 (though perhaps not "simple") 07:06:30 seangrove: see also: http://www.alu.org/mop/contents.html 07:07:37 chemuduguntar: oh? What would you do instead? 07:07:50 chemuduguntar: because I like to think of myself as a lisper, and that's *exactly* what I'd do. 07:08:17 Thanks guys 07:08:18 Ralith: the real lisper would use a CM 07:08:25 stassats: a whatnow 07:08:49 Connection Machine 07:08:51 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:08:57 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 07:09:16 can't say I've ever heard of that. 07:09:33 Ralith: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connection_Machine 07:09:44 daniel___ [~daniel@p5B32624C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:13 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:10:27 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*Lisp 07:11:18 heh, neat 07:12:11 and CM-5 was at the top of TOP-500 once, though it doesn't seem as cool 07:12:43 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082A27F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:13:08 -!- HackingLemur [~HackingLe@96.18.164.16] has quit [Quit: HackingLemur] 07:13:31 symbole_ [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:19 -!- gz [gz@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 07:15:01 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:15:44 i wonder whether something like star-lisp can be used on modern GPUs 07:16:08 dberg [~user@c-98-234-179-166.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:02 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:17:02 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:17:02 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:17:10 Not sure it's likely to be that useful. 07:17:23 The connection machine was a large graph of very small computers. 07:18:15 Is there a way to get the (symbol-function) of an flet? As per cltl2 both symbol-function and function only work for the global "value". 07:18:34 flip214: it doesn't make sense 07:18:59 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:19:19 stassats, why? I've got a lambda that I'd like to use with fle (because of recursive calls), but I'd like to return it, too 07:19:35 Zhivago: so are GPUs, though maybe the number of processing cores is smaller 07:19:50 Of course, I could do (let (fn) (setf fn (lambda () ... (funcall fn)) fn), but is there a prettier way? 07:19:52 There is no symobol-function on an flet, but you can #'name to get the function. 07:20:18 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:20:20 sassats: Vastly smaller, and the computers are vastly larger. 07:20:28 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:20:35 flip214: because it's lexical, it makes sense only at compilation-time 07:20:53 (flet ((fn () 1)) (funcall #'fn)) 07:21:09 stassats, the _name_ is lexical 07:21:17 minion: tell me about cl-gpgpu 07:21:18 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cl-gpgpu''. 07:21:24 minion: tell mean about cl-gpu 07:21:24 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cl-gpu''. 07:21:26 Zhivago, AFAIK #' is just a shortcut to (function), and that doesn't work (as per cltl2) 07:21:51 what doesn't work? 07:22:19 Um, what doesn't work? 07:22:24 flip214: the name is lexical, it doesn't exist beyond its lexical scope 07:22:27 Also, cltl2 is wrong. 07:22:33 symbol-function returns the current global function definition named by symbol. 07:22:48 #'fn works for lexically scoped functions. 07:23:08 cltl2 is wrong here? then I think I'm fine ... I'll try that, thanks. 07:23:17 function is a special operator, it can access lexical environment 07:23:37 flip214: i don't think cltl2 is wrong _here_, you're just misinterpreting it 07:23:52 Well, when do I get my copy of CLTL3? ;-) 07:24:00 when it's ready 07:24:10 in the meantime, use CLHS 07:24:13 clhs function 07:24:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm 07:24:16 > symbol-function cannot access the value of a lexical function name produced by flet or labels; it can access only the global function value. 07:24:28 that is right 07:24:39 flip: What does that have to do with #'fn? 07:25:35 Zhivago: I used to think that #' translates to (function), and this doesn't seem to work ... but maybe I'm doing it wrong 07:25:40 I'll have a look. 07:25:51 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:25:53 What the hell does (function) have to do with symbol-function? 07:26:47 flip214: and you said you have a recursive function, why aren't you using LABELS? 07:27:20 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:27:35 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:27:43 good morning! 07:27:59 *seangrove* blinks 07:28:05 stassats, yes, you're right ... the function is (not yet) recursive, so I didn't notice. 07:28:53 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:29:07 Alright, looks like I'll need to use c2mop to get a list of all the slots, their init args, etc, and loop through recreating them, add the new slot in, and then maybe (eval) is or something like that 07:29:14 That's the general plan of attack here 07:29:39 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-046-172.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:21 Or I'm doing this way too complicated and I shouldn't be using slots 07:30:27 That actually sounds more sensible 07:30:41 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 07:30:48 trigen [~MSX@87.209.144.213] has joined #lisp 07:31:24 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:31:47 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 07:32:35 No, (function) seems to work ... I had an error in the caller that I misinterpreted 07:35:02 -!- daniel___ is now known as daniel 07:35:57 seangrove: look at mop:ensure-class 07:36:06 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 07:39:26 mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 07:39:26 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 07:39:26 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:39:34 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:53:18 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:56:05 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:56:25 good morning 07:56:39 abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 08:00:08 -!- ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:03:55 ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:04:29 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@109.179.140.169.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 08:05:52 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-23.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 08:06:35 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:07:17 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 08:07:35 -!- sbadger [~sbadger@c-76-27-21-59.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:10:01 how to see type of a symbol ? 08:10:38 Um, the type of a symbol is symbol 08:11:29 kushal: type of a variable? 08:12:06 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:14:28 sorry 08:14:34 stassats, type of a variable 08:15:06 or maybe you want to know the type of an object? 08:15:13 Zhivago, btw, I tried creating prefix tree but after memory consumption went above 8GB , I stopped the process 08:15:55 using cltl2 extensions: (macrolet ((env (&environment env) env)) (let ((a 10)) (declare (integer a)) (sb-cltl2:variable-information 'a (env)))) => :LEXICAL T ((TYPE . INTEGER)) 08:15:55 08:16:02 clhs type-of 08:16:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_tp_of.htm 08:16:17 stassats, ok, checking 08:16:53 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.230.212] has joined #lisp 08:18:03 (the former isn't something you should consider using in ordinary programs) 08:18:27 ok 08:18:41 kushal: Then you did it wrong. 08:19:02 Zhivago, very big chance of that :) 08:20:14 Zhivago, I tried to have this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trie for for substrings of each key 08:20:35 LinGmnZ [~LinGmnZ@ppp-58-8-181-146.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 08:21:02 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:21:28 -!- trigen [~MSX@87.209.144.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:21:29 kushal: Can you manage to make one trie containing all of the keys? 08:21:50 trigen [~MSX@81.18.253.210] has joined #lisp 08:21:54 huangjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 08:22:00 Zhivago, for smaller set of data, and searching in that is very fast 08:22:55 Zhivago, when I tried with set of 2241501 records , it went on and on while creating the trie 08:23:26 kushal: And what trie implementation were you using? 08:23:39 Zhivago, means ? 08:24:15 Zhivago, I wrote one using basic object knowledge I have while having a hash table to store next nodes in each of them 08:24:30 my code must be stupid 08:24:40 Yes. It sounds very bad. 08:25:25 Zhivago, :D 08:25:31 hash tables are a very expensive way to do that. 08:25:50 Zhivago, ok, how should I keep trac of nodes ? 08:26:01 Zhivago, let me show you the code I wrote 08:26:12 Well, you could just use something as stupid as an alist or plist. 08:26:29 That won't be so good for the high density nodes, but you won't have so many of those, given that you're doing names. 08:26:58 You could then measure the cost of that, and if sufficiently high, you could replace those with vectors in dense nodes. 08:27:10 Zhivago, not names of humans though :) 08:27:15 Names of what? 08:27:48 Zhivago, symbols of a C library 08:28:18 Same deal, then. 08:28:37 ok 08:28:39 They follow reasonably natural lexographical distributions. 08:28:43 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:28:53 paste.lisp is down for me 08:28:56 Zhivago, http://fpaste.org/mDTK/ 08:29:09 So you'd expect the first few nodes to be dense, and then the density would drop off to very low except for pivot points. 08:29:22 Like open_file vs. open_lid, etc. 08:29:32 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-046-172.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:29:39 Zhivago, yes that is true 08:30:29 kushal: Personally, I would not represent each node as an object -- I'd have one trie object encapsulating a graph built from conses and vectors, etc. 08:30:34 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:30:59 ok 08:31:31 kushal: Then I'd build the protocol of that trie in the form of queries upon that trie, rather than accessing trie elements. 08:31:44 Which will avoid exposing implementation details. 08:32:00 Think of how you could build a trie by hand using a-lists. 08:32:12 other bad thing I am doing from memory point of view: I am keeping trac of k-u-s-h-a-l and also u-s-h-a-l and s-h-a-l and h-a-l etc 08:32:21 Yes. You can use tail compression later on. 08:32:37 Storing subtrees which have a maximum child count of 1 as strings. 08:33:18 Zhivago, can you please draw one small image showing the trie will look like ? 08:33:27 I am bit confused 08:34:03 jconrad [~jconrad@host109-152-181-62.range109-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:34:27 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 08:34:28 longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has joined #lisp 08:35:37 I'm trying to parse a string containing "{ a 1 ; b 2 ; c 3 4 }" into ((a 1) (b 2) (c 3 4)), using the lisp reader. 08:35:50 http://paste.lisp.org/+2I1M 08:36:15 The paste shows that I'm currently changing the ";" into a gensym, to split the list at these points. 08:37:17 Is there a better way? I'd think about parsing a ";" as ")("; I could unread-char the "(", but AFAIK the list handling is recursive, so there's no easy way to stop the one iteration and start another, is there? 08:38:07 http://paste.lisp.org/display/116699 08:38:40 Zhivago, my current scheme http://kushaldas.in/trie.png 08:39:54 Zhivago, my issue was how the user can search "ell" in that trie? 08:40:01 Zhivago, the one you did 08:40:06 Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has joined #lisp 08:40:22 kushal: They don't. 08:40:24 kushal, the link doesn't work 08:40:34 eh 08:40:43 Zhivago, flip214 http://kushaldas.in/tmp/trie.png 08:40:59 Zhivago, my use case was to find keys based on substrings 08:41:06 kushal: Sure, but you need to do one at a time. 08:41:27 kushal: So, instead of looking for substrings, you look for matching prefixes. 08:42:01 kushal: Then you'd look for the prefixes of your keys with the first letter removed, and so on. 08:42:02 Zhivago, but the user can search all strings which contain "ello" in them 08:42:09 You're not listening. 08:42:20 I am not being able to understand 08:42:32 Do you understand how to match prefixes? 08:42:51 yes 08:42:53 "hel" is a prefix of "hello", for example. 08:42:59 yes 08:43:12 So, that's one trie. 08:43:18 ok 08:43:25 Now remove the first letter of every key, and produce a trie from that set. 08:43:37 ok 08:43:42 Matching a prefix on that will match a substring starting at the second position. 08:43:50 yes 08:44:00 Keep on cutting off the first letter of the keys until you run out of keys. 08:44:15 I was doing this only , but had bad effect on memory 08:44:18 Then prefix match on each of the tries you built to find all of the substring matches. 08:44:26 That's because of a really expensive implementation. 08:44:31 ok 08:44:50 If memory is a problem, you can also have the tries share substructure. 08:45:33 Zhivago, ok 08:46:01 Try using a trivial trie structure like that a-list I showed in the paste. 08:46:06 ok 08:46:24 It's not the best approach, but it is extremely simple and reasonable memory cheap. 08:46:31 ok 08:46:38 thanks , let me try 08:46:46 If you run out of memory, then the next step is to do tail compression. 08:46:58 But .. I suspect that you won't. 08:47:02 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 08:47:18 ok 08:50:49 flip: That's a reasonable approach, but shouldn't you be structuring the list in the reader macro? 08:53:23 Zhivago, yes, either there or after the read-delimited-list. I didn't do that yet because I wanted to ask whether there's a better way. 08:53:29 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:53:29 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:53:50 I cannot define a character to expand to two characters, can I? #\; => ")(" 08:53:50 Well, what you want to do is pretty horrible, but having ; yield a gensym there is reasonable. 08:54:12 You might use a special variable to control the behaviour of ; in the reader. 08:54:33 Then you could dispatch to the default behaviour when not reading a {}. 08:54:54 You could do that, but the reader doesn't read the result of reading. 08:55:55 Well, this is for parsing some data - so I don't want to change the global reader, just locally the readtable in the function. 08:56:25 Zhivago: thanks for looking! 08:57:21 Fair enough, although in that case I don't think that I'd want to use the reader for it. 08:57:38 -!- trigen [~MSX@81.18.253.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:58:57 The CL reader is not really that flexible -- the readtable is more of an ancient hack that was cheap and useful. 08:59:45 Writing a parser that understands the grammar of your data and then perhaps using the reader to try to convert values to lisp values might be easier and saner. 09:00:23 hmm, as the only thing missing is the splitting of the list I think I'll go that way. 09:00:43 comments, whitespace, symbols, numbers, sublists ... everything already done. 09:00:55 I think that's less effort than writing a new parser for all that. 09:01:57 Well, you broke comments. 09:02:11 trigen [~MSX@81.18.253.210] has joined #lisp 09:02:26 #\; => ")(" is pretty horrible 09:02:44 Naith [~nickbarth@S0106001b38137d1b.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:52 yes - for ";", but I can easily define "#" as the new comment character. Or, TBH, everything's already defined - I just have to parse it. 09:03:23 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-82-178.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:03:50 flip214: parsers are not hard to write. 09:04:24 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-97-118.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:04:28 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 09:04:39 no, not hard ... but if the lisp-reader already fulfills 95% of my needs, I'll simply use it. I wrote "less effort", not "hard" ;-) 09:04:48 p_l: Well, it's not so much horrible as futile. 09:05:11 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:05:12 flip: Or you could just only break ; while within { } 09:05:31 flip: That would allow embedding of your horrible data into lisp code, and justify the hack. :) 09:05:57 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:06:07 One could call into a different parser through a macro-character #\{ 09:06:33 flip214: such a strange impl as this strikes me as more work in the long term, but to each his own 09:06:36 and yes, writing parsers in CL isn't as hard (though I personally would like to reuse reader often) 09:06:42 I do already - the paste is at http://paste.lisp.org/+2I1M 09:07:11 aside 09:07:13 (use a macro character) 09:07:15 -!- churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:07:15 are there any neat parser generators in CL? 09:07:36 The CL directory lists a few. 09:08:19 -!- LinGmnZ [~LinGmnZ@ppp-58-8-181-146.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:10:14 CL-PPCRE can be an interesting tool in building one, thanks to the structured form of regexes allowed - though some automation would be useful for turning a set of regexes defining various terms into a nice FSM that would call the proper functions 09:10:42 I was thinking something more along the lines of flex+bison 09:10:48 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 09:11:00 though 09:11:07 Well, lexing isn't parsing. 09:11:09 I guess that would probably be a trivial macro atop CL-PPCRE 09:11:25 regex can be useful for lexing, but I wouldn't want to use it for parsing. 09:11:39 Zhivago: I know, but lexers are useful in parsing :) 09:11:56 *p_l|uni* parsed C with practically just lexer and some functions to react on certain terms 09:12:13 though I admit I didn't have to add full parser there 09:12:15 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@88.243.169.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:12:54 Ralith: there's at least one Yacc implementation for CL (Yacc is what Bison implements) 09:14:20 LinGmnZ [~LinGmnZ@ppp-58-8-181-146.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 09:15:00 p_l|uni: I thought yacc was a program, not a standard 09:15:17 the predecessor to bison, specifically 09:15:26 Ralith: no, Bison is GNU "yacc" 09:16:07 huh. 09:16:10 *Ralith* shrug 09:16:54 POSIX actually mentions "lex" and "yacc" as requirements for POSIX2_SW_DEV capability 09:17:51 ah, actually it's required for POSIX2_C_DEV, not SW_DEV, my bad 09:18:36 SW_DEV adds make, nm, ar and strip 09:20:23 hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-178-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:21:42 churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:59 heh, I had no idea POSIX specified such things 09:22:00 neat 09:22:07 p_l|uni: is there a POSIX yacc spec? 09:22:46 Ralith: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/utilities/yacc.html 09:23:35 neeeaaaat 09:23:58 zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:24:23 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-83-201.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:28:53 tfb [~tfb@92.41.82.34.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:29:45 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-218.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:30:10 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:34:55 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:38:16 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:39:11 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:41:04 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:41:04 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:41:38 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:42:32 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-83-201.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:42:32 sanjoyd [~sanjoy@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 09:45:33 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:49:40 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:52:03 kenanb [~kenanb@88.243.169.186] has joined #lisp 09:54:00 Is there a version of SICP using Common Lisp? 09:54:15 just heard someone saying that.. so wanted to confirm it here :) 09:54:18 -!- dys``` [~andreas@krlh-5f723355.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #lisp 09:54:42 SICP is language-agnostic 09:55:06 -!- symbole_ [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:55:12 p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:56:12 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@88.243.169.186] has quit [Client Quit] 09:57:33 How can this be changed to make it work: http://paste.lisp.org/+2I1B The x variable will always be a string. 09:57:50 stassats: When I started to read it ... I remember it was riddled with Scheme examples 09:57:51 edlinde: try reading up PCL and then follow SICP, translating the examples to Common Lisp as you go on. 09:58:00 edlinde: I had a lot of fun doing that. 09:58:11 drl: (cond ((string= x "stringa") ...)) 09:58:11 drl: there is no way to change _that_ 09:58:13 sanjoyd: ok 09:58:24 edlinde: one problem you may face is that CL has two namespaces, while Scheme has only one. 09:58:27 case uses EQL for comparison and you can't change that 09:58:35 Other that, everything is fine. 09:58:47 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu191.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:58:56 -!- Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:59:09 pkhuong_ had written a string-case macro i think 09:59:14 drl: there's a library that implements a pretty optimized string-case 09:59:26 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:33 #= 09:59:49 do (ql:quickload "string-case") and you're good to go 10:00:08 probably this one www.discontinuity.info/~pkhuong/string-case.pdf 10:00:50 (defun c (x) (print (cadr (assoc x '(("stringa" "This is a") ("stringb" "This is b") ("stringc" "This is c")) :test #'string=)))) 10:01:41 Many thanks, you guys! 10:02:34 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:07:07 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:14 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:14:57 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 10:17:30 zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:09 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 10:19:42 Ocaso [~chatzilla@203.156.243.14] has joined #lisp 10:20:50 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 10:21:12 -!- Ocaso [~chatzilla@203.156.243.14] has quit [Client Quit] 10:21:25 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 10:21:41 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:21:53 -!- zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:23:00 Zhivago, btw, simple storing each name , and then access them sequentially takes around 1.5seconds which low memory foot print 10:24:51 p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:26:33 s/which/with 10:27:22 What the hell? 10:27:38 Ah, you mean storing all of the names takes around 1.5 seconds? 10:27:53 kushal: Ok, so you're happy, then? 10:27:58 kenanb [~kenanb@88.243.169.186] has joined #lisp 10:27:59 Zhivago, after storing, searching takes 1.5sec 10:28:11 To search all names? 10:28:16 Zhivago, now I need milliseconds 10:28:24 Zhivago, yes 2.2 million secords 10:28:27 * records 10:28:38 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.16.210] has joined #lisp 10:28:38 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:28:42 Ok, so how much faster do you need it? 10:29:20 less 300mill may be 10:29:30 why I am missing words :( 10:29:34 less than 300mill may be 10:29:39 So a factor of 5. 10:29:49 yes 10:30:06 Write a function that traverses the tries and builds a branch count histogram. 10:30:31 i.e., it tells you how many nodes have 5 branchs, and how many have 53, and so on. 10:30:40 hdurer_ [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:45 Zhivago, I never wrote the trie yet , this is a simple list 10:31:16 Ok, so that's just linear scanning? 10:31:20 yes 10:31:36 Well, the simple trie shown should give you a five-fold increase on that without difficulty. 10:31:45 ok 10:32:10 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.93.132.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:32:10 -!- Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:33:29 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kcxjnmfipmpzorfb] has left #lisp 10:33:55 Oops, that should be a factor of 8, still ... 10:35:06 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu191.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:35:21 wvdschel [~wim@minimusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 10:35:22 -!- wvdschel [~wim@minimusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Changing host] 10:35:22 wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has joined #lisp 10:45:11 are there any libs with epoll and http support? 10:45:29 jconrad: that, specificall, together? 10:46:04 yes 10:46:10 jconrad: iolib supports epoll, but it is not a http library. 10:46:16 "Plans for future development include adding support for client-side of common protocols such as HTTP(S), SMTP and more... 10:46:20 " 10:47:10 yea i saw that 10:47:23 would it be easy to get iolibs working with something like drakma? 10:47:41 im pretty new to lisp, coming from a python background 10:48:24 The inability to spell "I'm" is a good indication of that. :) 10:48:34 jconrad: for what purpose? 10:49:11 Maybe there is something that exists already that wouldn't need the work. 10:49:52 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 10:50:35 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:51:00 Depending on how drakma is internally structured, it might not be too difficult 10:51:45 -!- Naith [~nickbarth@S0106001b38137d1b.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Naith] 10:52:21 Functions that build up the request, and parse the response 10:52:49 the rest is socket glue code isn't it? 10:54:49 Xach, just for doing async web stuff, akin to python's twisted-web 10:55:52 jconrad: I understand the general idea, but I mean specifically in your case, what makes the async part compelling? 10:58:11 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:01:59 xach: im expecting lots of concurrent users ;) - i can't really go back to the blocking model after using twisted. reactor style event loops seem like the way forward 11:03:19 im writing a dating website 11:03:31 ah. 11:03:45 ..with a difference 11:04:11 "find the eval to your apply at LoveForLispNerds.com" 11:04:22 i might end up using python for the frond end, i was just wondering how difficult it would be to do the whole thing in lisp 11:04:32 -!- chp [3d87a5ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.135.165.174] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:04:53 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-141-119.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:28 jconrad: not hard, IMHO 11:05:40 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-47.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:07:04 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 11:08:50 Xach: haha 11:09:02 jconrad: I guess if I were you I'd just use drakma or similar until your site was too popular for it to continue working. 11:11:30 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:11:55 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-56.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:12:07 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@83.222.190.105] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:13:08 xach: yeah that might be the direction i end up taking 11:13:42 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 11:14:38 dfox_ [~dfox@ip-213-220-225-110.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 11:15:58 jconrad: what's the obsession with epoll? 11:15:59 -!- wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:21:00 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:21:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Client Quit] 11:21:50 jdz: im obsessed with async, and epoll uses less cpu than select - or so i've heard 11:22:43 <`3b`> jconrad: are you looking for http client or server? 11:22:56 *`3b`* doesn't have any answer for either, just confused by the conversation 11:23:23 '3b': both, liek twisted 11:23:27 *like 11:23:51 jconrad: is your cpu usage the problem? 11:24:10 jconrad: it does, in *some* cases 11:24:17 -!- katesmith_ is now known as katesmith 11:26:15 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:26:16 statssats: i haven't got any problems, i haven't even started, im just trying to create a mental map of the lisp libraries available for this sort of thing - but yea i could see cpu usage being a problem 11:28:58 MorganB [~user@64-238-171-196.cab.apt.gru.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:43 Krystof [~csr21@82-70-15-30.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:47:11 -!- churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:51:19 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 11:52:35 wvdschel [~wim@minimusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 11:52:35 -!- wvdschel [~wim@minimusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Changing host] 11:52:35 wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has joined #lisp 11:54:43 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:55:17 is there any function to tell me how much memory one object is taking ? 11:55:53 no 11:56:18 TIME may tell you how much memory is allocated 11:56:34 kushal: Your implementation might provide such a function 11:56:43 on SBCL it's page-granular 11:57:01 stassats, tcr ok, checking 11:57:05 using sbcl only 11:57:37 Then no luck. You can look at the define-primitive-object's in src/compiler/generic/objdef.lisp to get an idea 11:58:03 ok 11:58:23 sometimes you can extrapolate 11:58:26 you can allocate a thousand of objects, see how much memory it took in TIME, and then divide by 1000 11:58:42 CONSes tend to take two addresses 11:58:51 ok 12:01:05 *p_l|uni* notes it as another useful function to have 12:01:20 almost universally: cons is two words. on-dimensional simple arrays are ~ 2 words + length*natural-size-for-element-type. structure-objects are ~ 2 words + 1 word per slot. clos objects are ~ 6 words + 1 word per slot 12:01:21 kushal: on some implementations you can get detailed information from (room t) 12:01:47 though usually it will only give you information about fundamental objects 12:01:57 p_l|uni, yes 12:02:20 nikodemus: do structures pack 4 (unsigned-byte 8) slots into a single word? 12:02:21 nikodemus, hash tables ? 12:02:34 (not exacly, of course, but if there's an implementation where that isn't in the ballpark, i'm somewhat surprised) 12:02:56 (on sbcl) 12:03:00 stassats: not in sbcl 12:03:22 would it be hard to implement? 12:04:30 doesn't sound too hard to do on x86 and x86-64 12:04:38 kushal: approaches ~ 2 words * hash-table-size (not count), and likely has a constant overhead of some tens of words -- but hash-tables have so many different implementation choises that an universal estimate is much less likely to be good for them 12:04:42 No idea about other ports 12:04:58 it's just as difficult for all ports 12:05:01 nikodemus, ok 12:05:38 i think it should be doable, but would need to check if DEFSTRUCT :INCLUDE option makes life more difficult 12:05:53 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-141-119.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 12:06:11 nikodemus: Well, I was relating more to the fact that you can easily do byte-addressing on x86 without many problems (or so it seems to me), while some architectures will dump you into kernel through a fault if you do unaligned access :) 12:06:14 stassats: if you're looking for a nice defstruct hack, support for raw signed-word slots would be nice :) 12:06:44 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-141-119.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:49 p_l|uni: if unaligned accesses aren't allowed, it's just a load+mask+shift in the VOP 12:07:13 the individual vops are not the hard bit. they're the error-prone and tedious bit, but not the hard one :) 12:07:20 _mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:07:41 heh 12:08:05 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:08:07 *nikodemus* declares lunch 12:08:08 nikodemus: do you mean that (signed-byte 32) (on 32-bit) slots aren't immediate? 12:08:35 stassats: not last i checked, and i don't think anyone's been in the region recently 12:08:49 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:09:12 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 12:09:14 will be back from home 12:09:17 could be i misremember, of course. but iirc floats, complexes, and unsigned words get unboxed allocation but signed words don't 12:09:50 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 12:11:47 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 12:13:24 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:13:26 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 12:13:44 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:17:07 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.16.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:17:28 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.93.132.195] has joined #lisp 12:19:03 lnostdal-laptop_ [~lnostdal@109.179.140.169.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 12:21:42 kaemo [~kaemo@d38-66.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:21:55 -!- kaemo [~kaemo@d38-66.icpnet.pl] has left #lisp 12:22:35 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:24:29 drdo` [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:25:53 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:27:23 -!- lnostdal-laptop_ [~lnostdal@109.179.140.169.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:29:56 chp [~chp@114.113.66.96] has joined #lisp 12:30:32 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 12:33:10 kaemo [~mad5ci@d38-66.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:35:17 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-141-119.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 12:39:35 "This blog will also not teach you good style, Im too young for that." <-- more progamming blogs should have that disclaimer 12:40:22 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:41:48 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 12:42:18 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Quit] 12:42:19 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:45:04 -!- LinGmnZ [~LinGmnZ@ppp-58-8-181-146.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:45:30 -!- kaemo [~mad5ci@d38-66.icpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: *puff*] 12:45:41 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:47:07 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:49:01 leo2007 [~leo@124.65.136.150] has joined #lisp 12:49:50 kaemo [~mad5ci@d38-66.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:50:16 fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 12:54:02 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-235-239.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:54:11 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:54:25 -!- Guest92500 [~n@new.unmutual.info] has quit [Changing host] 12:54:25 Guest92500 [~n@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has joined #lisp 12:54:39 -!- Guest92500 is now known as chandler 12:54:44 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-204-231.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:59:53 netytan [~netytan@host81-141-51-227.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 13:02:57 -!- pocket_ [~pocket_@p1124-ipbf1004hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:03:37 Jigboot [c9a0f27e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.201.160.242.126] has joined #lisp 13:04:55 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:05:42 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:05:52 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:05:58 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:06:07 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:07:50 -!- wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:09:01 -!- replete [~pete@cpe-74-64-94-88.hvc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:09:42 Guest38586 [~charlie@adsl-87-46-139.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:49 rwallace [~rwallace@89.100.128.108] has joined #lisp 13:10:05 -!- dfox_ [~dfox@ip-213-220-225-110.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:10:14 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.230.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:10:50 Hi all, a quick question, how do I find out how much memory is currently being used? That is, (room) prints this information to standard output, but how do you get it returned as a value instead? 13:11:09 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:11:18 no way 13:12:13 Tired of niggers? 13:12:19 Sick of their monkeyshines? 13:12:24 Then join Chimpout Forum! 13:12:31 http://www.chimpout.com/forum 13:12:35 long time no see 13:12:37 LjL [~ljl@unaffiliated/ljl] has joined #lisp 13:12:43 At all, ever, even if you're willing to sacrifice portability? There isn't even any way to trap/hook/internally redirect standard output to attempt to parse the output of (room)? 13:13:01 (room M-. 13:14:15 (room M-. is a syntax error? 13:14:43 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:14:48 no, that's what you should type 13:14:53 M being Meta 13:15:04 Huh? 13:15:06 rwallace: (sb-kernel:dynamic-usage) for sbcl -- no officially supported, but works fine 13:15:13 -!- Guest38586 is now known as tsuru 13:15:30 rwallace: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_key 13:15:34 rwallace: stassats means in slime 13:16:01 yes, in slime, i forget sometimes that there are people how don't use slime 13:16:51 nikodemus, thanks! SBCL is likely to be one of the most important deployment platforms, so that helps a lot. I don't suppose you know offhand whether/which other implementations have some equivalent? 13:17:09 stassats, ah, no indeed, but thanks anyway :-) 13:17:26 M-. is supposed to bring you to the definition of ROOM 13:19:12 thoolihan [~Tim@209.221.3.130] has joined #lisp 16:05:18 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 16:05:18 16:05:18 -!- names: ccl-logbot bgs100 p_l|uni slyrus_ Guthur jconrad Salamander reb Joreji emptypea kslt1 ikki schoppenhauer schme iwillig dto marijnjh araujo psilord2 danlen-1 spcshpopr8tr lolsuper_ SegFaultAX askatasuna adu hargettp Ralith LiamH wuj churib muhdik kiuma_ CrazyEddy dlowe Athas abeaumont_ tcleval reav_ tic LaPingvino ASau spratt` sabalaba seejay davertron Taiyou` jmckitrick fogus` jweiss_ gonzojive Jasko antgreen xyxxyyy citizen428 tfb stdDoubt hlavaty 16:05:18 -!- names: carlocci beach SV_Nik Xach gemelen Yuuhi bandu dfkjjkfd jerivard gravicappa shachaf H4ns``` lanthan_afh fgump frodef` cmm whee peterhil HG` insomniaSalt Jabberwockey rdd ehu ignas jdz annihilator TraumaPony mvilleneuve Amadiro cataska daniel lispmeister mrSpec tcr hugod lemoinem Ginei_Morioka gigamonkey az sellout Intensity PCMX Skunkwaffle m4dnificent chemuduguntar didi vandemar jsnikeris SCVirus rahul Adamant Tristam [df] vert2 mbohun angavrilov 16:05:18 -!- names: Quadrescence pr s0ber The_Fellow1 antifuchs ramus jajcloz Guest96643 setheus jamief jcazevedo ace4016 nowhere_man V-ille sixpoint8 Fullma em antoszka prip borkamaniac rapacity koollman djinni` lnostdal jesusabdullah stokachu pmd svk_ slyrus jrockway zc00gii abeaumont boysetsfrog trigen tritchey syntard Euthydemus Patzy pchrist kleppari arbscht xinming billstclair sykopomp pierrep Obfuscate snorble eli clog katesmith Krystof dmiles_afk scode petter` delYsid 16:05:18 -!- names: sigjuice Quetzalcoatl_ kae_ gnooth udzinari xristos gavv\w gju guther ianmcorvidae lusory mejalx gz symbole` Khisanth devinus fe[nl]ix Xof_ Kovensky Draggor1 hypno felipe joast ivan4th _3b theBlackDragon spiaggia |3b| PissedNumlock srcerer luis cpt_nemo replete housel mathrick lisppaste sentry syntard_ bobbysmith007 metasyntax` rtoym Bucciarati mpedersen bougyman BrianRice cipher katofiad wgl thom_logn guaqua lianj Aferlak12 Demosthenes njan hdurer_ ve 16:05:18 -!- names: Aisling Taiyou foom lharc nuba tessier chandler cods pok OliverUv borism rafl PuffTheMagic Buganini Nshag krl quasisane jpanest deepfire krappie_ mreggen cinch azuk rootzlevel kencausey lichtblau zvrba tychoish ejohnson clop DrForr fmu_ lonstein spacebat cYmen pjb ineiros fnordus acieroid bzzbzz yahooooo zbigniew fihi09 Pepe_ l_a_m albino rotty pkhuong_ erk_ tomaw mgr fmu Borbus jsnell bfein dcrawford mal__ derrida incandenza strlen z0d sid3k vs_ baley 16:05:18 -!- names: franki^ herbieB nullman hohum Xantoz m4thrick boyscared galdor majoh egn qebab rabite elly Adrinael johs stepnem Zhivago hdurer`` amaron sepi Axioplase_ ``Erik adeht starseeker easyE nasloc__ ddv koning_robot kloeri blitz_ Tordek Odin- karbak aoh stettber` codemonk1yx johanbev ozzloy Dodek AntiSpamMeta mtd yan_ eno Tasunteld ecraven tvaalen ntd mornfall Zahl_ Fade phadthai gds 16:06:23 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:56 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:09:49 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 16:11:28 morning folks 16:11:34 MrPat [~chatzilla@dhcp-pa-173-233-18-248.consolidated.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:36 hello slyrus_ 16:12:35 urandom__ [~user@p548A3C1C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:58 hey beach. my random thought-o-the-morning is bewilderment at the high-falutin' names given to the process of solving problems-that-aren't-problems-in-lisp in other languages 16:13:00 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.89] has joined #lisp 16:14:06 Xach: what's the deadline to get fixes into the next quicklisp release? :) That should give me some motivation to fix uffi-compat. 16:14:10 slyrus_: such as "aspect-oriented programming"? 16:14:47 I was more thinking of monkey patching... wtf? and the expression problem? why do you think they invented CLOS? 16:15:17 I see, yes. 16:15:21 howdy, slyrus_ 16:15:22 but, yeah, AOP does seem like a big hack to deal with crappy object models, but, then again, whaddoiknow 16:15:29 -!- citizen428 [~citizen42@chello213047077012.23.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15:29 hey jmckitrick, long time no hear 16:15:50 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 16:15:50 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:16:06 slyrus_: ja, been working on a huge deadline last 2 months. actually deadlines... 16:16:10 Bronsa [~bronsa@host196-191-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:16:58 Wow! The ranking of the Google AI challenge changes very fast now. 16:17:09 link? 16:17:19 http://ai-contest.com/rankings.php 16:17:47 bocsimacko is mega1? 16:17:52 Yes. 16:18:13 I hope he can take back the top position, though I suppose I should be proud of medrimonia. 16:18:17 Craig` [~craig@host81-141-118-214.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 16:18:36 is medrimonia one of your colleagues/students? 16:18:52 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 16:18:52 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:18:54 A student here. I don't know him personally, at least I don't think so. 16:19:12 hey 16:19:27 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:42 hello Craig` 16:19:54 slyrus_: CLOS doesn't quite address the safety aspect of the expression problem. 16:20:13 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 16:20:28 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:30 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:20:35 just starting to read practical common lisp :) 16:20:48 -!- Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@selene.ftk.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:21:08 Craig`: Excellent! Did you start using SLIME as well? 16:22:03 well im just using sbcl atm, never tried emacs as im just getting into vim and i like it 16:23:13 Craig`: LEARN emacs 16:23:21 dont do the error ive done 16:23:30 i learnt vim and i cant use anything else 16:23:31 what would that be, the error 16:23:33 but emacs is better. 16:24:09 can you explain why it is better please 16:24:12 if u start learning vim, it will be fucking hard to get used on emacs 16:24:13 emacs will give you emacs pinky, but is better for lisp 16:24:24 and when u get that emacs is better 16:24:29 it will be too late. 16:24:32 jmckitrick: caps as control. 16:25:11 i guess i can look into emacs 16:25:18 do vi[m] people press colon using their noses? 16:25:22 pkhuong_: got it 16:25:33 Bronsa: If you know Emacs, then please use abbrev-mode so that we can see "you" while you are still typing "u". 16:25:39 what's with the pinky, then? 16:25:42 im wanting to learn lisp as ive heard it can make you a better programmer in general 16:26:06 pkhuong_: that helps, but after some serious ctrl use, it can be a bit sore by the end of the day 16:26:31 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-112-174.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 16:27:49 jmckitrick: remap control to the key next to the space bar 16:28:09 pretty sure you should hit caps with your 4th (piano, 3rd for violinists) finger. 16:29:04 jmckitrick: http://world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/SpaceCadet1.jpeg 16:29:16 luis: early december 16:29:39 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-66.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 16:30:07 dlowe: With what finger do you hold those, though? Thumbs? 16:30:34 beach: sure. No more emacs pinky! 16:30:43 dlowe: The space bar is too wide for that it seems. 16:30:46 wow. the thumbs up/down buttons would be nice for redditing 16:32:13 -!- Craig` [~craig@host81-141-118-214.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:32:52 Craig` [~craig@host81-141-118-214.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 16:32:58 sorry about that 16:34:21 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:34:46 *schme* likes the ctrl at its usual position. putting it at the "caps lock" position made hand problems appear. 16:35:30 I don't understand the problem with the normal position. 16:35:48 schme: I find it impossible to reach! 16:36:04 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 16:36:13 beach: odd. I just move my hand from the home row and hit it. Either left hand or right hand. 16:36:19 depends on what key I want to hit 16:36:35 C-x = right hand ctrl. C-w = left hand ctrl 16:36:40 like shift I guess. just ctrl (: 16:36:48 schme: The thing is, I don't want to move my hand from the home row. 16:37:01 sounds complicated 16:37:16 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 16:37:52 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has left #lisp 16:38:04 schme: Using capslock, you don't have to, but the problem is with C-? where ? is any key that you would normally hit with the left pinky, like a, q, z. 16:38:07 I think I'm probably just too violent when I get going... need to type more lightly, even when angry at code 16:38:30 beach: that's when I use ctrl-r 16:38:32 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:38:40 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 16:38:41 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:38:55 beach: I use it just like shift really. anytime I want C+something on the left hand side I use ctrl-r, and vice versa. 16:38:56 Yes, I understand that. 16:39:02 kk :) 16:39:11 maybe put ctrl where shift is. (: 16:39:24 or on the spacebar! 16:39:31 schme: I just can't do it. I can use Shift that way, but control is just too far away for my fingers. 16:39:55 schme: But having a narrower space bar and ctrl on both sides of it would be great. 16:40:06 like the "alt" keys? 16:40:20 schme: Yes, but currently the space bar is too wide. 16:40:48 schme: And when I think about it, there is absolutely no reason why it should be that wide. 16:40:54 one really should have the spacebar split into three seperate keys. 16:40:57 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-138-18.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:06 maybe four even. 10:13:09 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 10:13:09 10:13:09 -!- names: ccl-logbot H4ns`` drl Neuroneutron tcr Joreji HET2 ziarkaen gravicappa pdelgallego churib ost` trebor_dki jconrad stettberger TraumaPony peterhil pavelludiq aerique Hun splittist trigen jdz Jabberwockey insomniaSalt HG` snorble_ xan_ freiksenet phao dfox_ nha xavieran Beetny Athas flip214 dberg daniel fred-o katesmith abeaumont_ varjag ehu stassats mcsontos Salamander cmm seangrove mrSpec yahooooo Ginei_Morioka jhuni homie fgump Borbus tama lusory 10:13:09 -!- names: MetalDust az gigamonk` lemoinem arbscht felipe echo-area gz Quetzalcoatl_ Phoodus eppa skalawag leo2007 redline6561 kanru gor[e] SV_Nik DrForr lisppaste Amadiro p_l|uni symbole` GrayMagiker jesusabdullah c|mell slyrus_ Fullma syntard jcazevedo Jasko s0ber billitch holycow peddie dto1 cky bougyman spcshpopr8r murilasso La0fer konr jamief vert2 AntiSpamMeta azuk xristos clog antoszka Tristam borism hdurer__ borkamaniac ASau rpg V-ille BrianRice benny rtoym 10:13:09 -!- names: Xach ace4016 aoh Intensity ramus egn hlavaty mega1 kiuma rapacity vandemar ddv tritchey Ralith jsnikeris prip sonnym emma rootzlevel rokstar billstclair schmrkc Adamant kaemo srcerer chemuduguntar kleppari euphidime djinni` svk_ Draggor Buganini cataska_ lnostdal__ Fade tic dostoyevsky OliverUv Xantoz guaqua rotty CrazyEddy SCVirus pchrist ve theBlackDragon hugod ejohnson boysetsfrog Zhivago fe[nl]ix pierrep fmu bzzbzz sykopomp knobo Lycurgus sigjuice 10:13:09 -!- names: eldragon zeroish reb gonzojive beach shachaf frodef` whee rdd lispmeister [df] angavrilov Quadrescence pr antifuchs Guest96643 setheus nowhere_man koollman stokachu pmd jrockway zc00gii Euthydemus Patzy Obfuscate eli dmiles_afk scode petter` delYsid kae_ gju guther ianmcorvidae mejalx Khisanth devinus Xof_ Kovensky hypno joast ivan4th _3b spiaggia |3b| PissedNumlock luis cpt_nemo replete mathrick sentry Bucciarati mpedersen cipher katofiad wgl thom_logn 10:13:09 -!- names: lianj Demosthenes njan Aisling foom lharc nuba tessier chandler cods pok rafl PuffTheMagic Nshag krl quasisane jpanest deepfire krappie_ mreggen cinch kencausey lichtblau zvrba tychoish clop fmu_ lonstein spacebat cYmen pjb ineiros fnordus acieroid gds phadthai Zahl_ mornfall ntd tvaalen ecraven Tasunteld eno yan_ mtd Dodek ozzloy johanbev codemonk1yx karbak Odin- Tordek blitz_ kloeri koning_robot nasloc__ easyE starseeker adeht ``Erik Axioplase_ sepi 10:13:09 -!- names: amaron hdurer`` stepnem johs Adrinael elly rabite qebab majoh galdor boyscared m4thrick hohum nullman herbieB franki^ baley sid3k z0d strlen incandenza derrida mal__ dcrawford bfein jsnell mgr tomaw erk_ pkhuong_ albino l_a_m Pepe_ fihi09 zbigniew 10:19:46 xinming [~hyy@115.221.12.137] has joined #lisp 10:23:10 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@61.99.46.4] has joined #lisp 10:27:56 -!- replete [~pete@cpe-74-64-94-88.hvc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:28:28 -!- jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:29:11 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.57.220] has joined #lisp 10:37:44 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu183.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:39:07 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@109.179.101.35.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 10:58:00 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 10:59:14 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 10:59:17 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing 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quit [Quit: leaving] 11:46:17 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:48:30 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-236.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:52:42 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@109.179.101.35.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 11:54:46 replete [~pete@cpe-74-64-94-88.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:56:28 1 Used & New from $999.98  OnLisp @amazon.com 11:57:11 Not only pricey, but also used and new at the same time. A riddle truly worth of some good code. 11:59:42 Joreji [~thomas@93-236.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:02:11 that vendor also has a declining reputation, consistent with that pricing 12:02:34 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:04:24 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:06:02 just downloaded it for free from the authors site though 12:06:26 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-176-79.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:08:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-236.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:08:16 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-47.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:12:36 p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:13:43 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:15:30 man...edi he must have written half the libs for common lisp 12:18:40 -!- jconrad 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[~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:52:57 ch077179: that is normally due to unbalanced parentheses, but in this case i think it's because quotes and double-quotes aren't simply quotes and double-quotes 12:52:58 ch077179: not sure about the guide, but you probably are missing a close paren somewhere 12:53:10 or what pmd said 12:53:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-47.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:53:59 yep, the guide has "smart" quotes 12:54:32 some people really should not be writing guides... 12:54:41 Smart quotes in are a common curse on the web. 12:55:02 Often inevitable in a given blog/whatever engine. 12:55:15 antoszka: i guess it's neither the code tags, nor the web, but the tools people use 12:55:30 it's a common curse in most visual formatted text editor 12:55:34 All these sites should provide separate code tarball for downloading. 12:55:37 antoszka: but people writing technical articles should be aware of these things 12:55:44 jdz: Certainly. 12:55:55 jdz: Often they neither notice nor care. 12:56:36 ch077179_ [~ch077179@nat/ibm/x-zirueuvgvhwobdwh] has joined #lisp 12:58:03 ch077179__ [~ch077179@nat/ibm/x-mwywxpbddumwofyu] has joined #lisp 12:58:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-47.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:58:57 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-107-139.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:00:05 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@nat/ibm/x-xnoecfmtjjivejrf] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:01:16 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-109-81.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:01:53 -!- ch077179_ [~ch077179@nat/ibm/x-zirueuvgvhwobdwh] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:04:37 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-19-101.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:05:52 craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 13:06:06 guess i should actually get aroud to making something :) 13:07:01 -!- TraumaPony 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[~chatzilla@204.51.92.251] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]] 13:43:57 What's the difference between defparameter and defvar other than that one overwrites any previous variable definition (defparameter) and the other only defines a variable if it was unbound (defvar)? 13:44:21 Neuroneutron: that is it 13:44:22 Program parameter would be defined with defvar, program variables would be defined with defparameter. It's logical. 13:46:10 pjb: or the other way around 13:46:30 jdz: no, really. 13:46:45 pjb: the logical bit 13:46:56 Oh. It was sarcasm. 13:47:00 -!- ASau [~user@89-178-188-64.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:47:10 pjb: Did you send your pathnames issue to the cmu list? If not, can you just forward the message to me? 13:48:04 Well, I sent it twice, but it was held by the moderator. Then I subscribed to the maillists, but I have to follow up. 13:48:24 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:31 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu183.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:50:42 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:50:46 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:50:53 Martin is the moderator, I think. (You did subscribe to cons.org and not common-lisp.net, right?) If you don't want to bother anymore, feel free to send it to me. 13:51:16 Yes, to cons.org 13:51:22 sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.113.101.212] has joined #lisp 13:52:52 Oh. I added too much complexity. 13:57:58 necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:34 in CL, is (length some-list) always O(n)? 13:59:24 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.56.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:32 No. When (vectorp some-list), it's O(1). 14:00:01 necroforest: it's unspecified 14:00:15 and when (listp some-list), but some-list is not a proper-list, it may be anything, such as O(). 14:00:57 ok, assuming some-list is a plain old list 14:01:06 what's called a proper list. Yes. 14:01:08 -!- abugosh [~Adium@64-121-86-146.c3-0.tlg-ubr2.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:01:21 ok, that's what i thought 14:04:26 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.32] has joined #lisp 14:06:05 -!- dberg [~user@c-98-234-179-166.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:07:48 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:08:32 notsonerdysunny [~chatzilla@59.92.195.153] has joined #lisp 14:09:10 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 14:10:17 pjb: Let me ping Martin about your subscription and message. He did recently move the lists around a bit just recently. 14:12:20 tfb [~tfb@92.40.38.199.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:17:10 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:18:20 hm...under what circumstances will (format ..) output be buffered and when will it be actually printed? 14:19:21 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@61.99.46.4] has joined #lisp 14:19:43 See force-output and finish-output. 14:19:52 that depends on the stream, but you may be looking for FINISH-OUTPUT or FORCE-OUTPUT 14:20:04 -!- ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:21:16 Yeah, (force-output) works I was just wondering when I will actually need it. 14:21:43 When you want to flush buffers 14:22:17 Hm...yeah, it's not a reasonable question. It just always irritates me when some output isn't displayed immediately. 14:24:06 cYmen: that's FINISH-OUTPUT and FORCE-OUTPUT functions trying to attract your attention (they feel lonely, you know) 14:24:10 cYmen: unfortunately, there is (a) no portable way to inspect or change buffering behaviour (b) the default differs between implementations and (c) worse, differs between different streams on the same implementation 14:24:10 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.173.214] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:24:11 Grue` [~grue@109.68.185.226] has joined #lisp 14:24:11 -!- Grue` [~grue@109.68.185.226] has quit [Client Quit] 14:24:37 Slime has a background auto-flush thread which is the reason why your output to *standard-output* always shows up almost immediately 14:24:38 :) 14:25:08 i think CCL also had some flushing thread 14:25:09 for example, SBCL defaults to line buffering on the tty, but full buffering elsewhere. 14:26:02 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@61.99.46.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:26:35 or maybe i have dreamed it up myself 14:26:59 E.g. if line buffering is the natural mode for your application, and the stream is fully buffered, I'd personally try to find out how to change the buffering mode on your implemenation instead of sticking explicit force-output calls after every newline. 14:27:15 -!- lnostdal__ is now known as lnostdal 14:28:45 abugosh [~Adium@64-121-86-146.c3-0.tlg-ubr2.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:28:49 -!- abugosh [~Adium@64-121-86-146.c3-0.tlg-ubr2.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:30:16 abugosh [~Adium@64-121-86-146.c3-0.tlg-ubr2.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:30:18 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.173.214] has joined #lisp 14:30:50 -!- dfox_ [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-66.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:33:48 lichtblau: People do that? Change the buffering mode of the implementation? Lisp is scary. :) 14:34:13 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@61.99.46.4] has joined #lisp 14:34:29 no, I mean "how to change the buffering mode of a specific stream", which is an implementation-specific task. 14:34:48 For example, on SBCL you can do that using the :buffering keyword argument when creating the fd stream. 14:41:55 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:43:24 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:44:09 beach: you around by any chance? 14:45:47 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:58 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:46:29 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:47:52 -!- Neuroneutron [~Neuroneut@124.155.195.7] has left #lisp 14:48:03 -!- benny [~benny@i577A3930.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:48:27 hi, I am trying to improve a common lisp program I wrote, and performing a "time" command shows that a third of the time is spent in GC... so I am assuming that if I get rid of having to build intermediate structures then I might save some time. But my Prof believes that when I read in a line at a time from a file in CL the IO is really slow and could be the culprit. But I am not sure how to know if IO is the bottleneck 14:48:54 I mean I am just using the normal file open and read operations as shown in PCL :) 14:49:26 edlinde: reading lines on by one is reasonable for most usages 14:49:46 galdor: thats what I thought... 14:50:16 trust the profiler, not what someone "thinks" 14:50:21 or "believes" 14:50:34 galdor: are you referring to the output from "time"? 14:50:54 I'm referring to something like sb-prof 14:51:03 I use CCL 14:51:20 edlinde: what is the metric you are trying to improve? Is this a user-relevant metric? 14:51:26 edlinde: http://openmcl.clozure.com/manual/chapter11.1.html 14:51:39 splittist: I am trying to improve runtime 14:52:00 if GC is the problem, increasing the heap size can help. 14:52:23 pkhuong_: can I do this programmatically? 14:52:53 At the command line, maybe. ##clozure might know. 14:52:56 the thing is that the prof is really asking me to implement a Lisp implementation to match a really well written C one and compare run times... 14:53:33 edlinde: is your code a really well written Lisp code? 14:53:38 and I am not a lisp champ or anything ... but the lisp implementation is running 100 or more times slower than the C counterpart 14:54:02 i'm not sure why would your prof ask you to do that... 14:54:07 jdz: you are more than welcome to rewrite it :) 14:54:13 have no idea 14:54:19 there was an interesting discussion on CCL's read-line on openmcl-devel recently 14:54:21 kanru [~kanru@114-45-232-142.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:23 http://clozure.com/pipermail/openmcl-devel/2010-October/012121.html 14:54:27 he says the rule of thumb is that the lisp code should be about 10 times slower 14:54:36 I don't know where he got that rule :) 14:56:49 wonder if I should try running the same on SBCL and see what I get there 14:57:02 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:58:04 -!- craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:58:32 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.113.101.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:58:37 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:59:06 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:59:18 edlinde: go with READ-SEQUENCE with some proper block size instead, if that is possible? 15:00:06 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:00:07 edlinde: what's the task? 15:00:11 I can try but I am not sure how READ_SEQUENCE 15:00:13 http://ideone.com/n4mIG 15:00:26 benny [~benny@i577A1B2F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:00:59 you allocate quite a number of bytes 15:01:16 pkhuong_: I am reading a file with say about half a million entries and then writing out the results of data mining them for patterns using this algorithm, sometimes the patterns can increase to a size > input file. So lots of reading and writing 15:01:31 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has left #lisp 15:01:45 stassats: yeah I want to try and change that, the algorithm uses a lot of intermediate data structures to hold some information 15:02:18 do you retain all the data the whole time your function is running? 15:02:27 In C it worked great for them coz they allocate in memory slices, and deallocate as soon as it's not needed in the program, while I am just relying on CCL's GC to do the right thing for me 15:02:32 nope 15:02:42 its retained in compressed format in a tree 15:02:53 and lots of subtrees get generated in the process of mining this main tree 15:03:34 what i was going to suggest is whether you foil the generational GC or not 15:04:08 for example, the C code will read nodes from the main tree and when this stuff is not needed it immediately gets rid of that node... so its constantly shrinking this main tree 15:04:41 I liked pkhuong_ 's suggestion of allocating more space for GC 15:04:48 that might help quite a bit 15:05:23 or I have to come up with some other work around where I don't require these intermediate trees... which would be a major re-haul of my work 15:05:32 edlinde: in SBCL, you can iirc change at runtime the amount of bytes allocated before triggering GC 15:05:33 a simple way to tell how muchtime you're spending in IO is to time the input, computation and output part of the process. 15:05:40 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:06:00 pkhuong_: is there a way to do this programmatically you mean? 15:06:14 can I spread some timiing commands in my code? 15:06:14 and refactoring the code to make that straightforward would be a net win anyway. 15:06:18 edlinde: sure. 15:06:30 ah yeah that would certainly help 15:06:55 p_l|uni: that sounds really nice too 15:07:16 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:20 can you guys give me some links where I can find this information, I was unable to find this stuff in any book 15:07:29 -!- La0fer [~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:07:33 edlinde: sometimes you can actually get better performance by lowering generation size, so that GC gets triggered often but with lower space to scavenge 15:07:35 we have SBCL installed at uni 15:07:39 maybe give that a shot 15:07:59 edlinde: the book is called "Experience" 15:08:06 stassats: I know :) 15:08:15 thats why I asked here 15:08:37 edlinde: hmm. the site you pasted is not correct right, you are not using clisp? are the real program available? 15:08:51 edlinde: http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/ 15:09:10 hypno: sorry didn't get you there 15:09:49 I remember someone here in this channel actually works at Clozure 15:09:56 cannot remember who :) 15:10:04 edlinde: there is #ccl channel 15:10:08 edlinde: it says "CLISP 2.47" as "language" which is presumably wrong? then the actual code is just trivial code. is the real code available? 15:10:21 edlinde: you can pay them and they will help solve your problems 15:10:32 osoleve [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:49 hypno: sorry the language is common lisp 15:10:53 I chose the wrong option 15:11:02 stassats: I am a poor student :) 15:12:40 and sbcl is generally quite faster 15:13:23 MagBo [~Sweater@195.114.56.71] has joined #lisp 15:13:55 edlinde: if I/O really is the bottleneck you may also give SCL a try. it sports optimized streams,etc functions. but, in the end, do you really have a performance requirement in the assignment? 15:14:31 Ok will try sbcl 15:14:42 can I install sbcl on macosx? 15:14:47 yes 15:14:55 wish I had done that earlier on 15:15:04 stassats: do you use sbcl on macosx? 15:15:11 fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 15:15:16 hypno: yes its a project to compare the results 15:15:16 no 15:15:18 ok 15:15:50 sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 15:16:09 edlinde: such comparissions are generally doomed since they very rarely do exactly the same thing. :) 15:16:28 yeah i know 15:16:36 was looking at --> http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter15.1.html#Heap-space-allocation 15:16:46 I tried running this command on slime.. gave me an error 15:16:56 I am not sure where I have to run this openmcl command? 15:17:06 which command? 15:17:21 openmcl --heap-reserve 64M 15:17:34 edlinde: modify your inferior-lisp-program in .emacs to reflect the change. 15:17:39 edlinde: what made you think you need to enter it? 15:18:26 I thought it would reserve a block upfront 15:18:35 you thought wrong 15:18:36 manage to setup a huge chunk for it 15:18:42 stassats: alrite then 15:19:44 you mean --> (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/local/src/ccl/scripts/ccl -K utf-8") 15:19:48 that line there? 15:20:06 yes, but don't change it, it won't do any good 15:20:10 64M is tiny. 15:20:24 the default is good enough 15:21:01 ok 15:21:08 I wanted to then really set it to something huge 15:21:19 plus I don't know what the default is currently set to 15:21:27 stassats: not if he's trying to test whether that'd save on GC time 15:22:06 pkhuong_: do you have any suggestions how I can modify this to something large like say 2GB? 15:22:24 it's already 2GB 15:22:48 hehe 15:23:14 pkhuong_: it's a reserved space for heap, how would it affect the GC? 15:23:41 stassats: 2GB is quite a bit 15:25:16 it only means how much your heap can expand 15:25:27 on 64-bit the default is 512G 15:26:03 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 15:26:24 not more? I'd believe 512M for 32bit ... 15:26:24 ok 15:26:32 does CL have a primitive I can use to flatten a list? 15:27:01 yvdriess: no 15:27:02 -!- kaemo [~mad5ci@d38-66.icpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:27:02 edlinde, stassats: http://openmcl.clozure.com/manual/chapter15.7.html#Garbage-Collection-Dictionary, in particular set-lisp-heap-gc-threshold seems like what you want if you want to the GC to be less/more agressive? 15:27:06 flip214: no 15:28:12 yvdriess: nope, but there are probably hundreds of FLATTEN versions out there. check cll, etc. 15:28:15 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-138-18.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:50 alexandria:flatten 15:29:05 edlinde: rme is from Clozure, btw 15:29:22 stassats: Yep thats him! 15:29:29 hypno: thanks 15:30:01 I think I will mess with those GC options on Clozure a bit and then switch to SBCL and do some tests 15:30:01 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:30:09 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp