07:55:56 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 07:55:56 07:55:56 -!- names: ccl-logbot demmeln drwho_ lpolzer mbohun aerique somecodehere wlr gemelen brennanc ichernetsky bdowning freiksenet Tonijz CrazyEddy schme rares ignas legumbre Athas nunb mathk mega1 ARC137 Louis11 ace4016 sysop_fb rapacity slyrus phadthai cmatei spradnyesh benny tsuru sbahra ikki lichtblau fda314925 powerje TR2N` Ralith billstclair Tordek pok sepult yates NNshag kenjin2201 PatrickM cmm HET2 dmiles_afk Guest81998 OmniMancer1 UnwashedMeme lnostdal daniel_ 07:55:56 -!- names: PissedNumlock kpreid gruseom bytecolor plutonas mathrick metasyntax z4v saikatc rotty Phoodus ASau kuwabara eno clop nowhere_man ineiros dlowe stassats` slather WOG gzip4 borism amaron c|mell madnificent dcrawford pkhuong raison Adamant xenosoz2 myrkraverk` xan hoeq_ malsyned_ carbocalm fihi09 fractalis guaqua koning_robot quotemstr_ ryepup derrida Taggnostr scode REPLeffect tobetchi porcelina blitz_ lisppaste billitch Dodek dto Buganini Xof Draggor rsynnott 07:55:56 -!- names: Soulman__ jroes fnordus meltingwax joast Khisanth Spaghettini fgtech rread ASau` ivan4th lukjad86 addled_ [df]_ [df] cataska varjag Ginei_Morioka joga rlonstein whoppix prip knobo frodef Xantoz xinming Sergio` spoofy easyE trittweiler holycow nullman madsy nitor rikjasnon abeaumont boyscared djm spacebat dym franki^ mikezor djinni` Xach dostoyevsky timchen1` yacin stettberger mornfall Demosthenes moesenle alexsuraci bfein Tristam fatalnix1995 specbot minion 07:55:56 -!- names: cpt_nemo cupe_ tomaw borisc DrForr nuba ennen BrianRice johs hdurer_ l_a_m housel AntiSpamMeta gz PuffTheMagic_ ironChicken KatrinaTheLamia dfox hc_e kefka hicx174 tychoish arbscht Fade Holcxjo stepnem bakkdoor Ri- cods mtd foom krappie pragma_ sytse alexbobp egn ``Erik setheus zbigniew rootzlevel dejones ianmcorvidae ski kencausey erk bjorkintosh froydnj luis Adrinael yahooooo jsnell Zhivago tic Tabmow zmyrgel clog pr rahul guenthr z0d codemonkeyx lemoinem 07:55:56 -!- names: _3b__ nicktastic Borbus Axioplase_ Darxus jrockway Pepe_ fmu Yamazaki-kun hohum blast_hardcheese weirdo jyujin qed Helheim Orest^bnc kom_ qebab retupmoca Raptelan rullie herbieB reb` peddie p8m dalkvist felipe srcerer Patzy austinh 07:56:02 -!- drwho_ [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:56:04 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-209-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:56:15 spiaggia [~user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 07:56:22 drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:38 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-209-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:38 hm, i think im having trouble understanding it exactly. So since list (1 2) = (cons 1 (cons 2 nil)) then (cons new-config list-of-old-configs) = list (new-config list-of-old-configs)? 07:57:59 antifuchs [~foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:08 list-of-old-configs is a chain of cons cells 07:58:21 the cdr of a cons cell should point to another cons cell, in order to have a valid list 07:58:36 only the car holds the actual list contents 07:58:55 kglovern [~kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 07:58:59 rbancroft [~rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:00 tmh [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 07:59:05 meltingw1x [~meltingwa@z.glue.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 07:59:05 ramus [~ramus@99.23.137.238] has joined #lisp 07:59:05 (cons config3 (cons config2 (cons config1 nil))) 07:59:08 beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-70-208.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:59:16 guaq [gua@82-128-221-166-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:19 p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-oslfwxyvbtdbsrwt] has joined #lisp 07:59:26 so the list-of-old-configs would be (config2 config1), or (cons config2 (cons config1 nil)) 07:59:27 koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:34 tvaalen [~r@terminal.se] has joined #lisp 07:59:42 thijso [~thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 07:59:43 phoodus: To another list, rather. 07:59:54 when you tack on config3, (cons config3 list-of-old-configs) = (cons config3 (cons config2 (cons config1 nil))) = (list config3 config2 config1) 08:00:02 louis: CL has a notion of 'proper lists' and 'dotted lists'. 08:00:22 louis: '(a . b) is a dotted list (cdr '(a . b)) is b. 08:00:37 louis: '(a b) is a proper list (cdr '(a b)) is '(b). 08:01:04 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:01:53 yes, the terminator nil isn't actually a cons, though it is a list. Don't worrya bout the distinction for now 08:02:30 this reminds me a lot of trees in haskell 08:02:30 beaumonta [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 08:02:46 just like a null in C isn't actually a linked list node, but is a linked list node pointer value 08:02:51 Well, a cons block is a binary tree node, so that shouldn't surprise you. 08:02:56 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 08:03:04 however, i still don't think im comprehending this whole cons thing. 08:03:22 (cons a b) makes a pair with cda a and cdr b. 08:03:30 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-196.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:32 eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 08:03:33 a singly linked list structure in C is { whatever value; node* next; } 08:03:42 yea 08:03:43 a cons cell is {whatever car; whatever cdr;} 08:03:52 Proper lists are binary trees with terminals on the car. 08:04:00 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.118.235] has joined #lisp 08:04:05 the cdr doesn't hold the next value, it holds the next _linked list node structure_ 08:04:16 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:04:20 The cdr of a list is the rest of the list. 08:04:27 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 08:04:32 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 08:04:34 (rest '(a b)) is (b) -- rest == cdr 08:04:35 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-68-122.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 08:04:44 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:46 kwinz3 [~kwinz@77-22-179-242-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:04:46 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:04:47 rares [~rares@174-26-68-122.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:58 alright, i got that. So how does (cons new-config list-of-old-configs) actually update the config? By updating the "pointer"? 08:05:02 The second element of a list can be thought of as (head (rest list)) 08:05:02 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-68-122.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 08:05:11 Louis11: it doesn't update the config 08:05:17 cons doesn't update anything -- it is a constructor. 08:05:23 It makes a new cons block. 08:05:24 it's how you append to your history list 08:05:31 rares [~rares@174-26-68-122.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:37 functionally, without disturbing the old history list 08:05:42 No. It is how you make a new list whose tail is your old list. 08:06:19 *Phoodus* is describing things in terms of their purpose 08:06:29 You are confusing things. 08:06:40 You aren't teaching 08:06:50 heh. So basically i'm making a copy of the list? 08:06:50 (cons 'a my-list) makes a new list whose first element is a, and whose rest is my-list. 08:07:03 No, you're making one new element, and linking to the old list. 08:07:08 Louis11: no, you're adding a new linked list node to the head 08:07:17 and returning that node as the new head 08:07:18 There is no head to add to. 08:07:23 nothing has been modified 08:07:35 You're making a new head for a new list, with an old tail. 08:07:38 there is no global variable which holds the head of the list; you're just passing values around 08:07:50 Phoodus is addicted to using destructive terminology to describe constructive processes. 08:07:53 ok that's what I thought. However, say I had a list '(T T Nil T T ) and wanted to update the third element to T, how would cons do that? 08:08:00 Be very cautious when listening to him. 08:08:08 Louis: Cons doesn't update anything. 08:08:14 louis: So your question is clearly wrong. 08:08:18 Louis11: the whole thing with the cons was building up your desired history of configs 08:08:27 you'd want to create a new list with those changed values, right? 08:08:36 Phoodus: yes 08:08:38 Fufie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:08:45 I want to update the values of 3 elements in my list, then return the new list 08:08:54 or rather, a new copy of my list 08:08:54 louis: (setf (third my-list) new-value) would destructively modify it. 08:08:59 no, you want to create a new list with those 3 values different from your old list 08:09:08 right 08:09:14 Zhivago: Yea that's what I figured. That's how we got into the cons discussion :P 08:09:35 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:35 mrSpec [~Spec@chello089074179078.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 08:09:35 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:37 If you want to constructively modify it, then copy the list until the third element, then (cons new-value rest-of-list) as the tail. 08:09:37 the easiest for now would be to copy the list and setf the changes 08:09:41 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:10:15 -!- sellout is now known as Guest50852 08:10:21 Phoodus: Ok, so I cons the list to make a "copy". Then setf the changes - wouldn't this still return the last setf? 08:10:28 Or am I missing something there? 08:10:29 cons doesn't make copies. 08:10:33 (copy-tree config) 08:10:39 cons makes one goddamned node in a binary tree. 08:10:48 That's it! 08:10:57 hahaha alright, I got that :) 08:11:01 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-68-122.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 08:11:13 If you want to copy a list then you need to cons up each node you want to copy. 08:11:18 rares [~rares@174-26-68-122.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:37 Louis11: you might already be doing this, but it really helps to play with this stuff in the repl 08:11:38 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 08:11:51 try one term, make sure it has the right return value 08:11:53 yea, i have sbcl? 08:12:03 then wrap another operator around it, see if that reutrns the right value, etc 08:12:10 I'm on a mac and had trouble finding anything that would run natively. And everything on mac ports was broken :/ 08:12:21 If all else fails there is 'clisp'. 08:12:24 anekos [~anekos@pl932.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:12:48 bbl and good luck. 08:12:55 thanks :) 08:12:59 clisp should run everywhere, but is a bit lenient with warning reports, though 08:13:20 yea, might be what I need. Seeing as I have sbcl installed i might just run with it 08:13:25 so it doesn't enforce good style as well as something like sbcl 08:13:35 nonetheless #lisp has been the most helpful irc I have ever been in :) 08:13:47 how long have you been on here? 08:13:54 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:13:54 uhm a few hours? 08:14:07 I just started lisp like 6 hours ago, something like that 08:14:37 well, let me give you a few warnings about this place 08:14:51 sure 08:14:53 1) every single term you use will have some sort of connotation somewhere in the lisp spec 08:15:18 and every time you happen to use some special word, you will get an hour-long bombardment about how you're wrong and confusing for daring to use that word 08:15:28 That's largely irrelevant. 08:15:34 yes 08:15:42 Just remember to try to spell words properly and to try to ask intelligent questions. 08:16:05 Essentially if you pretend to be an intelligent human being and don't have huge ego problems then you should be fine. 08:16:10 2) most people here aren't shipping commercial software, though in your case that probably doesn't matter 08:16:45 3) you will be pointed to the spec very, very often, even though it's pretty incomprehensible to a newbie (see 1, because the spec assumes knowledge of all the vocabulary implications) 08:17:40 4) there are lots of people here who will say you're doing things all wrong, without showing you how to do things right. Blow them off 08:18:06 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-248-40.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:20 good morning 08:18:27 in any case, lisp is a great language 08:18:31 sounds a lot like other channels :P 08:18:43 yeah, especially if you've been around haskellites and the like 08:18:44 it's rather interesting, though I haven't warmed up to the whole functional thinking 08:19:02 I've seen the same sort of attitudes around lisp, haskell, erlang, etc 08:19:13 I spent a lot of time in #haskell last year 08:19:30 Can't say I was met with a similar welcome 08:19:41 you got lucky here 08:19:47 lol, i would say so 08:20:00 in terms of the exact time & discussion you happened to pop in on 08:20:00 -!- sysop_fb [~bleh@80.255.39.35] has quit [] 08:20:15 yea, well i'll prob be here for most of the night 08:20:23 this whole thing is a project for one of my AI classes 08:21:33 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:21:39 -!- drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:22:04 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:25:24 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:28:10 drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:41 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:31:44 PatrickMcLaren [~Patrick@ppp118-209-197-239.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:06 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:35:18 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:35:35 -!- TR2N` [email@89-180-194-94.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 08:37:17 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:37:35 xinming_ [~hyy@218.73.129.62] has joined #lisp 08:39:14 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-40-32.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:39:33 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 08:40:38 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.64.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:41:12 Joreji [~thomas@76-091.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:41:21 -!- addled_ [~adl@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:43:18 snearch_ [~olaf@g225053153.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:44:18 -!- Spaghettini [~Spaghetti@vaxjo7.181.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:45:55 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756e33.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:10 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-209-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:48:28 -!- Louis11 [~chatzilla@r74-192-16-145.bcstcmta01.clsttx.tl.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221151141]] 08:50:16 to answer my earlier question, this is the command to get the contrib dir for ccl `svn co http://svn.clozure.com/publicsvn/openmcl/trunk/source/contrib/ clozure-contrib` 08:50:52 -!- brennanc [~brennanc@cpe-76-166-156-65.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: brennanc] 08:52:01 hm 08:53:01 I'm getting a type-error "The value # is not of type #:TEXTURE." from SBCL running a function that does nothing but call make-instance 08:53:49 nopaste the code 08:54:08 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:56:34 (defun make-texture () (make-instance 'texture :id 0 :width 0 :height 0)) 08:56:54 probably a screwed up image. 08:57:02 obviously that's not a self-contained piece 08:57:38 the class is trivial. 08:57:45 but it was a screwed up image. 08:57:46 naresh [~nareshov@unaffiliated/nareshov] has joined #lisp 08:58:36 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-179-187.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:00:20 -!- naresh [~nareshov@unaffiliated/nareshov] has quit [Client Quit] 09:01:14 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:02:09 fiveop [~fiveop@g229177154.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:03:38 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-129-113.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:04:15 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Client Quit] 09:05:26 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-156-197.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:06:14 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 09:06:16 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 09:06:16 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 09:07:22 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:10:06 -!- meltingw1x [~meltingwa@z.glue.umd.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:10:09 Ralith: That shouldn't happen with classes, I think. Was texture a structure before you made it a class? 09:13:38 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-156-197.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:15:13 tcr: it was, but no references to it as such, or data of that form remained. 09:15:22 and the same function worked fine for a little while 09:15:33 I suppose unintern is not reliably safe for that anyway. 09:16:00 ecraven [~nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 09:18:03 unintern? No, unfortunately not 09:18:38 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.94.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 09:18:53 sbcl has a global information db, think of it as a non-weak hash-table. So if you defun, defstruct etc. even though you do not use it, it still changed the state of your image 09:19:54 If you define a function which e.g. uses an accessor of a structure, sbcl will probably inline that accessor, and compile in a type check 09:20:10 if you later make the structure a class, the typecheck in that function still refers to the structure 09:20:27 and that's when you get an error like you got: "# is not of type FOO." 09:20:57 but I recompiled the function in question. 09:21:37 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:30 a-s [~user@2001:15c0:66a3:2:214:85ff:feea:c35a] has joined #lisp 09:22:30 it was literally just a trivial make-instance wrapper. 09:22:40 I wonder if the optimizers of structure accessors are properly removed if you redefine a structure to a class 09:23:03 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@77-22-179-242-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:23:12 tcr: the function was literally (defun make-texture () (make-instance 'texture :id 0 :width 0 :height 0)) 09:23:15 no accessors. 09:24:39 -!- a-s [~user@2001:15c0:66a3:2:214:85ff:feea:c35a] has left #lisp 09:24:44 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:27:21 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 09:28:33 CyberBlue [~yong@111.167.10.183] has joined #lisp 09:28:36 tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:29:58 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-144-157.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:33:39 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@chello089074179078.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 09:33:39 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:34:24 j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has joined #lisp 09:36:04 Dunno then :-) 09:36:23 Q: I have two lists, I want to sort #'< the first '(:a :b :g) based on the order of the second '(1 3 2). -> (:a :g :b) 09:36:45 how do I match those indexes? 09:37:00 latour [~latour@pool-173-48-42-247.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:35 -!- latour [~latour@pool-173-48-42-247.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 09:37:51 tcr: I'm sure it was something very much like that, anyway. Thanks for the education. 09:38:40 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756e33.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:40:30 j0be: the usual crappy solution is (mapcar #'car (sort (mapcar #'cons abg-list 132-list) #'< :key #'cdr)) 09:41:25 adeht: thanks let me try 09:43:40 -!- snearch_ [~olaf@g225053153.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:44:43 adeht: how does this conceptually work: like conning the elements of both list into a lists of two cons, sorting that on the cdr (the second) of that cons and returning the first. 09:45:38 you can inspect the intermediate data structure 09:46:31 If the latter list represents the precise indices, you could create a vector, and then fill that 09:46:45 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:47:13 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.169.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:48:39 tcr: not precise indexes in my case. In the precise-index case, a nth is also viable. 09:49:04 j0be: think about it 09:49:32 using nth would probably involve O(n^2) 09:50:42 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 09:51:04 tcr: you are right in that (nth will walk the list every time you mean, right?) how would it in case of a vector work. does it have direct access to indexes? 09:51:55 nunb [~nundan@59.178.162.181] has joined #lisp 09:55:50 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 09:57:30 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-114-122.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:58:10 sysop_fb [~bleh@80.255.39.35] has joined #lisp 10:00:27 -!- ARC137 [~algo@121.0.29.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:01:24 -!- quotemstr_ [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:01:38 quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:01:49 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:03:56 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:06:36 nostoi [~nostoi@125.Red-81-32-247.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:36 skld [~skld@unaffiliated/skld] has joined #lisp 10:09:08 -!- beaumonta [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:14:36 -!- skld [~skld@unaffiliated/skld] has left #lisp 10:14:49 -!- xan [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:15:37 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-175-223.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:17:50 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:21:33 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:22:59 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:23:11 _3b__: you about? 10:26:03 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 10:28:26 can I get a low latency kernel set up without recompiling 10:29:41 -!- sysop_fb [~bleh@80.255.39.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:29:53 Kaonashi [~root@ppp118-210-236-133.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:10 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-68-122.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 10:35:09 sysop_fb [~bleh@80.255.39.35] has joined #lisp 10:36:16 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 10:41:57 -!- tobetchi [~tobetchi@p296b0a.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:48:01 Nightcrawler [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #lisp 10:51:27 leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:52:20 morning 10:52:39 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:55:43 demmeln [~Adium@p2176569657.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 10:56:26 -!- derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:01:48 fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:02:14 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 11:06:06 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:06:11 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 11:10:46 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@125.Red-81-32-247.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 11:13:08 xan [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:13:10 dabd [~dabd@a85-139-98-245.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 11:14:15 -!- dabd [~dabd@a85-139-98-245.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:15:17 dabd [~dabd@a85-139-98-245.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 11:16:08 -!- fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.1.1] 11:19:38 -!- dabd [~dabd@a85-139-98-245.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:23:35 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-248-40.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:23:43 -!- fatalnix1995 [~Fatalnix@spirit.ggxmain.com] has quit [Killed (Md (please stop cycling in and out of channels))] 11:24:08 fatalnix [~Fatalnix@spirit.ggxmain.com] has joined #lisp 11:27:36 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-248-40.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:20 koning_r1bot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has joined #lisp 11:29:34 -!- p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-oslfwxyvbtdbsrwt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:29:38 -!- koning_robot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:29:43 p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-vxmezxirdxgsmkfm] has joined #lisp 11:36:41 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66f3ca-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 11:36:58 fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:40:32 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@220.120.43.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:41:20 -!- j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:42:05 brill [~brill@193.3.1.132] has joined #lisp 11:44:29 -!- brill [~brill@193.3.1.132] has quit [Client Quit] 11:45:01 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 11:45:17 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 11:46:32 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-myiggojorwrzipin] has left #lisp 11:50:15 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 11:52:05 -!- mega1 [~quassel@53d82d4d.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:52:33 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:57:01 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:01 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:58:54 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:07:01 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:10:14 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:31 mega1 [~quassel@53d82d4d.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 -!- HET2 [~diman@91.114.108.230] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:13:32 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.135] has joined #lisp 12:13:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@76-091.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:14:17 -!- PatrickM [~Patrick@ool-435665cf.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: PatrickM] 12:17:16 A lot of lisp files have things like -*- Mode: Lisp ; Base: 10 ; Syntax: ANSI-Common-Lisp -*-, i.e. it seems their authors are not using SLIME. 12:17:55 leo2007: It works with SLIME as well, iirc 12:18:24 and it's mainly older files that have such statements 12:18:26 really? those variables aren't available in emacs 12:18:38 leo2007: maybe in GNU Emacs 12:18:51 A new project http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=users/frideau/fare-csv.git 12:18:54 uses that 12:19:08 new? 12:19:09 the "Syntax" one is definitely included in Genera 12:20:36 leo2007: also, the csv.lisp file looks to me like it got started rather long time ago 12:20:44 leo2007: fare-csv is quite old 12:21:08 kenjin2202 [~kenjin@220.120.43.80] has joined #lisp 12:21:13 since 2006 12:22:23 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:25:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-144-157.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:25:50 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:26:48 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 12:29:00 p_l: How can it work with slime? 12:30:39 leo2007: works as in "doesn't cause problems" 12:30:53 how can it cause problems? 12:30:55 ok 12:33:10 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:33:59 bigjust1 [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:21 -!- demmeln [~Adium@p2176569657.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:36:12 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:36:49 leo2007: it works fine; why wouldn't it? 12:37:19 though I don't really get why people feel the need to specify base 12:37:42 that's a historical thing. back in the day 8 was default in some environments. 12:37:45 because on lisp machines it was base 8? 12:37:57 demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:38:13 Parenthetically Speaking had an article about this. 12:38:24 stassats`: I think PDP-10 was more responsible for that 12:38:29 at least the issue was mentioned in one of them 12:39:53 -*- random-junk -*- is usually copy&pasted according to my experince: if you're using an editor that actually looks at that stuff, you'll find that most people have incorrect values in there which slime ignored. 12:39:59 Ralith: and you can write your programs in a different base, and bind *READ-BASE* when reading them. that should make your users happy. 12:40:55 -!- hoeq_ [~hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:41:08 the syntax is there to switch between different modes, especially important when you ran in environments that mixed ANSI, CLtL1/2 and some proprietary dialect 12:41:36 hoeq_ [~hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 12:43:06 not very portable to specialize on sb-sys:system-area-pointer 12:43:43 Is it possible to specialize on foreign objects in a more portable way? 12:44:15 cffi? 12:44:26 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 12:44:36 jdz: base 8 was the default? 12:44:37 usually how many people attend ILC? 12:44:39 that sounds supremely confusing 12:44:44 The key lesson is that it's a bad idea to have specs for the editor separate from specs for the lisp compiler. -*- package -*- is bad, having the editor look for in-package was a real innovation in eli and slime compared to older modes. 12:44:47 Ralith: why? 12:44:48 stassats`: yes 12:45:13 jdz: because people tend to think in base 10. 12:45:16 Similarly, in-readtable is better than -*- readtable -*-. 12:45:25 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:45:35 stassats`: then what? 12:45:36 Ralith: not *those* people at *that* time working with *those* machines. 12:46:12 jdz: that would make sense except for the bit where people regularly work with numbers outside of the context of their computers. 12:46:12 knobo: that was the answer, use what cffi provides (if it does) 12:46:55 cffi:foreign-pointer, then :) 12:47:02 Ralith: back then people who knew how to operate computers worked with them, not every joe from street and their grandmother. 12:47:09 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:48:22 knobo: it's even defined as (deftype foreign-pointer () 'sb-sys:system-area-pointer) 12:48:32 Ralith: back then computer people used octal so much, that "doing your checkbook in octal" wasn't really a joke 12:48:39 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:48:42 jdz: yeah, my grandmother was asking me for lisp advice just the other day. 12:48:45 p_l: ah. 12:49:07 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756e33.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:39 Ralith: for example, PDP-1/6/10 as well as other 36bit machines were quite big on octal, for example PDP-10 opcodes were often written in octal 12:50:22 p_l: it seems odd that that would carry over to higher level languages. 12:50:52 Ralith: Unix to this day shows octal in few places :D 12:51:55 *Ralith* is sad that he's never personally seen the "lp0 on fire" message 12:52:21 I think I had seen it once 12:52:32 back when I still had a directly-attached printer 12:53:08 silenius [~jl@2a01:238:e100:320:21f:c6ff:fed7:73bb] has joined #lisp 12:56:45 -!- PatrickMcLaren [~Patrick@ppp118-209-197-239.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: PatrickMcLaren] 12:56:48 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:57:21 HET2 [~diman@91.114.108.230] has joined #lisp 12:57:59 p_l: must have been pretty inconvenient to walk around like that! 13:02:33 plage [~user@laptop-147-210-129-138.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 13:02:36 Good afternoon! 13:06:19 Algid [~dash@c-71-237-204-74.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:35 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:53 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-224-153.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:54 stassats`: but I can not specialize on a type made with deftype, it has to be defclas, or? 13:15:11 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:28 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:16:45 it should be a class, yes 13:17:16 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 13:23:32 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-106.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:23:49 You can specialise on built-in classes and structure types too. 13:24:18 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:24:38 -!- z4v [~sav@200.255.103.130] has left #lisp 13:24:59 structure classes, rather 13:25:36 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-169-139.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:27:30 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-196.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 13:28:09 -!- Guest50852 is now known as sellout 13:28:17 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:28:37 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:31:33 -!- kglovern [~kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:31:57 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:58 Can I specialize (defun (setf fun) (new-val place 13:32:19 argh that was not compleat, but you get the point 13:32:28 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:32:32 could it be defmethod, is my quesiont 13:32:45 konr [~user@201.82.130.248] has joined #lisp 13:33:28 TIAS. 13:33:57 knobo: it can be a defmethod 13:35:02 if you read clhs, you'd know the answer 13:36:42 if you kept your REPL handy, you couldn't found out faster than asking 13:37:33 repl is a bad place to learn the standard 13:39:25 good place to answer specific questions. 13:39:39 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440411.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:39:43 astoon [~user@80.78.109.217] has joined #lisp 13:39:48 Implementation-specific questions, yes. 13:39:50 it would answer "you can in " 13:41:33 Ok, sorry for beeing lazy. I'll pull my self together. 13:42:31 it's actually faster to lookup in clhs, just C-c C-d h away 13:43:03 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-214-77.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:45:35 dlowe1 [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:47:31 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has left #lisp 13:47:46 -!- dlowe1 [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:48:14 dlowe1 [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:48:30 tsuru` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:33 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.94.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:49:50 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:59 -!- Tonijz [~tonijs@85.254.194.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:51:08 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 13:52:00 wgl [~wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 13:52:27 -!- Phoodus [foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:53:37 stassats`: insofar as you can add 1 and 1 in :P 13:54:46 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 13:54:59 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 13:59:34 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440411.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 14:01:01 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:02:54 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 14:06:14 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:06:21 -!- plage [~user@laptop-147-210-129-138.labri.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:08:44 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:11:47 dia100daly [~sdiawara@212.99.78.121] has joined #lisp 14:12:41 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: reboot] 14:14:29 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:16:09 chitech [~khuongdp@82.143.212.234] has joined #lisp 14:16:09 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:19:57 triyo [~c636caea@gateway/web/freenode/x-wlmubrdkztabphjb] has joined #lisp 14:20:05 sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:46 TDT [~dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 14:26:53 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:28:27 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:30:56 -!- fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.1.1] 14:32:34 carlocci [~nes@93.37.223.51] has joined #lisp 14:34:11 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:36:00 morphling_ [~stefan@gssn-5f756e33.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:26 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756e33.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:37:18 march's berlin meeting sounds fun 14:38:28 hugod [~hugod@207.96.182.162] has joined #lisp 14:39:01 Xach: url? 14:39:21 http://netzhansa.blogspot.com/2010/02/berlin-lispers-meetup-tuesday-march-2.html 14:42:42 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 14:43:44 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66f3ca-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 14:44:21 Xach: If I can some place to sleep, I'll be there ;) 14:45:31 -!- CyberBlue [~yong@111.167.10.183] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:46:59 s/can/can find/ 14:48:51 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:52 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:30 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:52:24 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:52:41 -!- slyrus [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-211-117.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:53:31 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 14:53:54 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-4-252.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:54:08 the Heart of Gold hostel is pretty cool 14:55:02 hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy-themed, clean and close to relevant subway lines. 14:55:11 actually, it looks like you could just stroll to the venue (: 14:55:48 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire.] 14:56:28 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:56:50 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:14 rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-44-7.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-214-77.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:01:52 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:02:32 antifuchs: sounds nice 15:02:52 is; I stayed there for a couple of days 15:07:10 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:32 mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 15:08:15 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:08:45 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 15:09:52 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 15:10:14 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66aeb7-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 15:10:33 -!- triyo [~c636caea@gateway/web/freenode/x-wlmubrdkztabphjb] has left #lisp 15:11:09 do they make videos of that user group meeting ever? 15:14:01 mk [~user@159.92.64.121] has joined #lisp 15:14:29 -!- mk is now known as Guest49122 15:15:42 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:15:54 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:16:03 I can't switch to a VTTY from X, running sid 15:16:36 Kaonashi: #debian. 15:16:42 waha 15:16:46 wrong channel 15:17:11 also, is stumpwm good? 15:21:09 Kaonashi: I've never tried it, but there are 39 people in #stumpwm. They might have an answer. 15:21:14 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-224-153.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:21:33 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-224-153.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:46 Kaonashi: I find it to be quite ok, but some alternatives might be more appealing to others 15:21:57 -!- astoon [~user@80.78.109.217] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:22:43 -!- mega1 [~quassel@53d82d4d.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:24:19 Xach: do a lot of people turn up at the ILC? 15:24:32 leo2007: Yeah. 15:25:09 usually how many? In one of a conferences in my field, we have around 3000. 15:25:21 sellout: I think ILC2009 had 250 people 15:25:25 err, leo2007 15:25:32 "a lot" is relative 15:25:57 Xach: i agree. but 250 is impressive too. 15:26:02 leo2007: you're not in the Lisp field? who let you in? 15:26:24 Are there videos around for talks at ILC? 15:26:52 Xach: I am always looking from outside. I don't go in. 15:27:09 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 15:28:24 leo2007: videos were taken, but i don't remember hearing about them being posted online or otherwise made available. 15:29:02 ok 15:29:05 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:29:26 you were the chair last year, weren't you? 15:29:52 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:30:12 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:38 Yes, I, Dan Weinreb, was the chair. And anyone who visits me at my office tomorrow gets a free cookie if they shout "AARDWOLF!" as loud as they can. 15:30:53 leo2007: No, actually, I am not Dan Weinreb. He was the chair. I was just a spectator. 15:31:12 astoon [~user@80.78.109.217] has joined #lisp 15:31:17 ;) 15:32:27 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:32:59 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 15:33:21 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:33:53 -!- dlowe1 [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 15:34:10 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:34:21 It was, for the most part, a lot of fun, both during the conference and socializing with lisp nerds in between. 15:34:33 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:00 Xach: are lisp newbs welcome? :) 15:35:19 I could imagine. I once attended a famous professor's book launching and met a computer nerd. 15:35:22 felideon: Encouraged, even. 15:35:25 felideon: Sure, yeah. 15:37:14 It'll be tough to go if it happens to take place in Japan 15:37:25 how so? 15:37:30 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 15:37:37 I would be more willing if it was in Japan 15:38:21 me too, plus if somebody sponsored it for me. 15:39:16 argh... now I'm really craving some okonomiyaki 15:39:58 i don't know what it is but i hate you for making me wanting it too 15:40:41 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:47 google/wikipedia will reveal all 15:40:54 ye, on it 15:41:04 my statament still holds :) 15:41:24 leo2007: not sure a solo trip to Japan would fly with my wife :) 15:41:33 leo2007: plus the costs 15:42:21 i see. the cost should be less expensive these days. 15:42:22 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.231.17] has quit [Quit: off] 15:43:19 unless it's scheduled during golden week 15:43:27 I guess if I find a sponsor like jdz said 15:43:51 (unlikely) 15:45:16 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45:26 alec [~aberryman@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:46:35 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:47:04 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.162.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 15:51:54 nunb [~nundan@59.178.187.222] has joined #lisp 15:52:40 Does sbcl hang for you, too, if you (asdf:test-system :sb-introspect) in the repl? 15:53:39 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-224-153.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:53:58 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-224-153.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:00 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 15:58:35 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:59:06 sellout: herep? 15:59:21 t 15:59:36 sellout: I hate to nag but would you mind applying that little external-program patch for ECL? 16:00:32 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:01:07 redline6561: No, nagging is good. 16:01:19 sellout: Thanks. :) 16:01:42 sellout: Personally, I'm really glad somebody wrote a trivial-compat library for that. 16:02:47 -!- WOG is now known as OsamaBinWOG 16:02:50 -!- OsamaBinWOG is now known as WOG 16:03:05 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:03:40 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:03:53 gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:52ff:fe76:8913] has joined #lisp 16:04:24 -!- NNshag [~shag@lns-bzn-53-82-65-55-34.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:05:14 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:05:29 how easy to make [] works like this [1 2 3;4 5 6] is equaivalent to #((1 2 3) (4 5 6))? 16:05:44 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:06:25 pretty easy 16:08:43 tcr: could you post the code to do it? I am thinking of create a -user package for my model. 16:08:54 leo2007: a one-dimensional vector of two lists? 16:09:49 mistake. should be #2A 16:09:54 an array 16:09:58 -!- gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:52ff:fe76:8913] has left #lisp 16:10:20 leo2007: What problem do you face in doing it yourself? 16:10:56 leo2007: Who uses your model besides you? 16:11:07 You PEEK-CHAR and look whether the next char is #\;, if not you READ 16:12:11 tmh: not sure yet. but [] is easier to input. 16:12:29 leo2007: Do you use paredit? 16:13:37 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:13:45 dnolen_ [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:05 tmh: yes. 16:14:14 leo2007: you could always make a function, like (lvec 8 6 7 5 :/ 3 0 9 0) 16:14:34 work with &rest and bob's your uncle 16:14:37 Blkt [~user@host-78-13-255-100.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 16:14:48 well, with a better name, of course. 16:15:14 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:15:14 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 16:15:28 leo2007: Ah, Ok. I find paredit makes entering data like that very easy. The only reason I would advocate writing a reader for [1 2 3 ; 4 5 6] is if you are supporting other users or reading data from another piece of software. 16:16:04 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:17:06 -!- varjag is now known as varjagg 16:17:11 or maybe (leo 1 2 3 :-] 4 5 6) 16:17:36 tmh: that makes sense. but since tcr said it's easy I want to look at the code. things like this is like magic to me. 16:17:38 Xach: ;) 16:18:28 leo2007: or :\) 16:18:31 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:19:17 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.187.222] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:19:50 leo2007: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3222747467111424@naggum.net.html has an example 16:19:50 nunb [~nundan@59.178.176.172] has joined #lisp 16:19:54 -!- HET2 [~diman@91.114.108.230] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:20:14 leo2007: a little more involved than your example, but it covers the idea in a way a common lisper might. 16:21:38 -!- astoon [~user@80.78.109.217] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:22:37 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:23:10 Xach: thanks. 16:23:31 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-177-81.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 16:25:11 leo2007: also, i don't know if it's clear from the article, but that kind of syntax change is often in the category of "once you have the experience to know how to make it, you no longer have the *desire* to make it" 16:25:30 like learning karate to kick someone's ass 16:25:42 (i assume) 16:25:46 I already lost my appetite. 16:27:15 jdz [~jdz@84.237.142.223] has joined #lisp 16:28:51 NNshag [~shag@lns-bzn-52-82-65-119-59.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:15 Learning karate and then *not* kicking people's asses is just wrong. What would Chuck Norris Do? 16:29:32 tmh: never followed any karate lessons, have you? 16:29:52 Xach: IMHO that's a very bad comparison, since the "not wanting to kick ass" should come from something other than just learning karate :-) 16:30:12 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 16:30:16 p_l: you take that back or i'll learn karate and kick your ass. 16:30:45 madnificent: Can't spot facetiousness, can you? 16:30:59 p_l: learning karate is not just learning the moves to hurt. It is more about an inner state of mind (afaik) 16:31:16 I consider martial arts a weapon - I do want to study/train, and if I managed, I would certainly include them as means of kicking someone's ass. The thing is, that I should also know how to control myself to know *when* to use lethal force 16:31:23 tmh: spot on! 16:32:12 It will probably be embarassing when you realize you should have taken up barroom brawling instead. 16:32:41 Zhivago: yeah. That's why I want to study... "practical applications" of martial arts :D 16:32:52 not some fancy looking stuff 16:33:04 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.176.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:33:17 Why not just join the army? 16:33:23 i'd call opponents nose bleeding a fancy looking stuff 16:33:33 looks more like barfighting to me ^_^ 16:33:34 but one only needs to do a little boxing to get that effect 16:33:38 Any SBCL type system hacker around? 16:33:50 Zhivago: I did consider that, but I doubt I'd be able to get into the unit that I want 16:34:21 (I wanted to pilot MiGs, dammit...) 16:34:39 Might be tricky to apply that skill in unarmed combat. 16:35:08 just imagine all teh G's those guys can withstand 16:35:56 jdz: When we finally get rid of the pilots, the aircraft will be capable of ~ 18-19 G's. 16:36:04 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:36:57 tmh: we are probably on better road to getting pilots capable of withstanding that than actually getting UCAVs safe enough for completely autonomous role 16:37:15 p_l: Nope 16:37:16 tmh: ...and will lose all will to fight 16:37:27 Just wait until we can replace the airforce with a swarm of mechanical bees. 16:37:35 why not control them from a distance 16:37:38 *p_l* doesn't trust AI design nor remote control. The first has too many opportunities for mistakes, the second can be countered 16:37:49 nunb [~nundan@59.178.188.166] has joined #lisp 16:37:55 or a cloud of nano assassins 16:38:13 I'd rather trust a human pilot, than risk enemy taking over remotely controlled drones :/ 16:38:16 it is less easy to control, but having a plane that's much more manouverable could just make it a much better fighting system 16:38:18 Zhivago: That assemble into a samurai robot in the enemies territory. 16:38:24 (and it allows pilots to respawn \o/) 16:39:04 madnificent: I'm actually looking into a hybrid design, with heavy manned fighters having few "slave" drones 16:39:04 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:39:26 btw, protesting in UK just got much more dangerous 16:39:39 *Xach* is sorry he brought it up 16:39:47 p_l: more info please 16:39:47 :-) 16:40:10 madnificent: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2010-02/10/future-police-meet-the-uk%27s-armed-robot-drones.aspx <--- have this, I don't want to continue OT 16:41:24 p_l: yes, scary. continue in #lispcafe if you want to continue chatting about it 16:41:41 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:41:44 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-20-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:10 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:44 brill [~brill@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:47:07 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.188.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:47:39 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-CDE684CB.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Input/output error] 16:48:16 gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:c2ff:fe0f:2d89] has joined #lisp 16:52:18 nunb [~nundan@59.178.166.39] has joined #lisp 16:52:49 astoon [~astoon@80.78.109.217] has joined #lisp 16:54:39 -!- astoon [~astoon@80.78.109.217] has left #lisp 16:54:52 -!- gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:c2ff:fe0f:2d89] has left #lisp 16:55:40 LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-123-60.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:48 -!- holycow [~new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:55:55 astoon [~astoon@80.78.109.217] has joined #lisp 16:58:33 Adlai posted this assembly code yesterday: galois.digitalsignallabs.com/lisp.pdf 16:58:37 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.166.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:59:18 how do you get that sort of assembly version of a lisp function? 16:59:27 -!- brill [~brill@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:59:32 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:59:35 yates: DISASSEMBLE is a standard function 16:59:43 oh really? cool 17:00:10 yep. http://l1sp.org/cl/disassemble has the details. 17:00:11 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:12 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-106.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:02:12 TR2N [email@89-180-175-58.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 17:03:14 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-106.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:38:48 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 10:38:48 10:38:48 -!- names: ccl-logbot demmeln freiksenet boyscared Morbeo cods AntiSpamMeta hankhero alama ragnul egn_ Adrinael_ ramus_ rbancrof1 Yamazaki1kun johs_ ``Erik_ Patzy _brah- stepnem daniel_ sykopomp` beach` ichernetsky mbohun kenjin2201 Edico trebor_dki slash_ grouzen a-s jdz levente_meszaros morphling l0stman Adlai aerique Davidbrcz Draggor Nshag fractalis splittist saikatc OmniMancer fiveop attila_lendvai simplechat jtza8 fsl mikol ska` RaceCondition mega1 Stattrav 10:38:48 -!- names: potatishandlarn mrSpec stassats Soulman fgtech^ qed Kolyan bytecolor prip smithzv TR2N dto alexsuraci rikjasno1 spradnyesh illumina` Taggnostr lpolzer__ Bobrobyn quotemstr ace4016 benny konr zbigniew getha koning_robot guenthr_ rlonstei1 Phoodus Oddity ski Demosthenes lithper2_ kpreid billstclair ve ljames Tabmow drwho Jasko felideon bipt djanatyn pkhuong banisterfiend @drewc porcelina Xantoz BrianRice dmelani CrazyEddy lukjad86 Modius sellout Sumpen 10:38:48 -!- names: araujo xan ivan4th Xach Xof ecraven amaron spiaggia xinming_ leadnose somecodehere hoeq erk cmm spoofy oconnore_ christoph_debian mdh fusss Adamant lesterc bdowning Amadiro adeht ignas Ginei_Morioka frontiers phadthai retupmoca c|mell tmh easyE spacebat ryepup blitz_ trittweiler varjag ASau` l_a_m rapacity Fade madnificent xenosoz2 Ralith DrForr Tordek Khisanth hc_e ineiros anekos tltstc Sergio` billitch Helheim_ wgl Spaghettini tsuru mjonsson _3b` 10:38:48 -!- names: abeaumont schme lnostdal setheus jsnell cpt_nemo stettberger fihi09 srcerer Buganini slyrus plan9 austinh fatalnix nowhere_man tmitt dalkvist Axioplase_ djinni` dostoyevsky Aisling alexbobp bfein alec z0d joast dmiles_afk p_l mornfall eldragon vsync tvaalen koollman guaq antifuchs lichtblau fda314925 pok reb PissedNumlock mathrick rotty kuwabara eno clop dcrawford raison guaqua scode lisppaste rsynnott jroes fnordus [df]_ [df] joga frodef nullman madsy 10:38:48 -!- names: djm dym franki^ timchen1` yacin moesenle specbot minion tomaw borisc nuba ennen housel gz PuffTheMagic_ ironChicken KatrinaTheLamia hicx174 tychoish arbscht Holcxjo bakkdoor Ri- mtd foom krappie pragma_ sytse rootzlevel dejones ianmcorvidae kencausey froydnj yahooooo @Zhivago tic zmyrgel clog pr codemonkeyx lemoinem _3b nicktastic Borbus Darxus jrockway Pepe_ felipe p8m peddie reb` herbieB rullie Raptelan qebab kom_ Orest^bnc jyujin weirdo 10:38:48 -!- names: blast_hardcheese hohum fmu 10:39:19 come to talk about serious code, _brah-? 10:39:28 randa [~arand@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 10:40:14 <_brah-> serious code in lisp? 10:40:18 <_brah-> hahahahahahaha 10:40:26 *_brah-* falls out his chair laughing 10:40:45 ah, you're here for fun coding times 10:41:06 stassats: I converted your code to a macro 10:41:07 RaceCondition pasted "uniquep-macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95098 10:43:59 premature optimizing? and you should've used a compiler macro 10:44:45 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:50 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 10:45:54 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*brah@gateway/shell/xzibition.com/x-wjjgkyrhsfhxttbw 10:46:00 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has been kicked from #lisp 10:46:47 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:47:04 -!- ska` [~user@203.146.146.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:47:38 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 10:48:11 FYI, "brah-" is now threatening to have me klined. 10:48:20 lol wtf 10:48:26 I laughed. 10:48:27 It's been a long, fun ride, #lisp! 10:48:36 Xach: I'm sorry to see you go :) 10:48:47 we'll write you letters! 10:49:31 RaceCondition: can you convert my code to a macro too pls 10:49:47 RaceCondition: here it is --> (puts 'hey baby') 10:50:18 this is too much 10:50:33 from brah-: "by the way, while you're gone i'll inform the channel that they no longer need to worry about you spamming" 10:50:43 Phew. 10:50:59 stassats: what do you mean? 10:51:20 RaceCondition: what do i mean what? 10:51:23 Somehow this troll invasion is happening at the same time as me running out of coffee. Maybe there is a hidden link. 10:51:23 -!- Xach has set mode -bbb *!*brah@gateway/shell/xzibition.com/x-wjjgkyrhsfhxttbw *!*j`ey@unaffiliated/jey/x-00002 *!*@ip72-207-22-131.sd.sd.cox.net 10:51:38 stassats: like, what should that macro do differently? 10:52:04 schme: that's all your delusions out of withdrawal 10:52:12 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!brah@gateway/shell/xzibition.com/* 10:52:16 RaceCondition: no, it shouldn't be a macro at all 10:52:16 stassats: OK, I can change defmacro to define-compiler-macro, but other than that? 10:52:18 -!- mega1 [~quassel@pool-035d0.externet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:52:24 is 9:30pm too late for coffee? 10:52:24 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 10:52:34 spacebat: No (: 10:52:40 I'm afraid I can't stick around, so I hope that moron doesn't try to cause more trouble. 10:52:59 I find his kind fun, now and then 10:53:04 cheers Xach 10:54:06 pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:54:14 *Xach* is entering year 16 of IRC, and hasn't enjoyed that kind of BS in about 6 of them 10:54:40 Moin! 10:58:03 stassats: I'm reading about compiler macros, but I'm not getting what benefit would a compiler macro have in the current case 10:58:25 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-18-248.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 10:58:36 RaceCondition: so you can have a function and a macro at the same time 10:58:55 stassats: oh, you mean there should be a function uniquep and then a compiler macro that expands it as necessary... 10:59:19 that's right 10:59:55 and that's because if the number of args is sufficiently high, it doesn't make sense to unravel the loop anymore? 11:01:27 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:02:25 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-196.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:07 -!- fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.1.1] 11:05:27 savonarola [~savonarol@skript2.donet.ru] has joined #lisp 11:05:27 number of comparisons will be n(n+1)/2, so it might not be space efficient at some point 11:06:03 -!- alama [~alama@n138220.science.ru.nl] has quit [Quit: alama] 11:09:14 also, `(not (or (equalp ...))) be better 11:09:20 might 11:16:41 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757b58.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:18:15 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:26:40 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:29:31 mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 11:40:29 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:40:37 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:42:29 stassats: right, thanks 11:45:20 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:48:04 -!- johs_ is now known as johs 11:54:12 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.151.10] has left #lisp 11:59:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-94-44-41-86.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:03:06 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-243-239.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:05:37 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-196.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 12:06:42 dwim [~user@c-83f9e255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:07:29 marcelinollano [~marcelino@81.Red-79-156-250.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:37 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-81-46.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:14:41 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 12:15:03 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229083142.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 12:18:25 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:19:18 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 12:24:57 demmeln1 [~Adium@dslb-094-216-057-146.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:24:57 -!- demmeln 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12:44:22 alama [~alama@n138220.science.ru.nl] has joined #lisp 12:44:27 airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:47:25 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-94-44-17-118.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 12:47:36 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:47:49 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-113-61.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:49:18 reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:50:20 mega1 [~quassel@3e70ddf3.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:51:26 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 12:51:32 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:55 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:52:00 Can someone give me an example of a good use for #. ? 12:52:31 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:54:32 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 12:55:28 #.*compile-file-pathname* 12:56:34 quotemstr: #+(not #.(cram-utilities:function-bound-feature "AUGMENT-ENVIRONMENT" "SB-CLTL2")) 12:56:49 Can't you use #+ and #- for features? 12:57:04 for features, exactly 12:57:07 stassats: Thanks. 12:57:34 quotemstr: Yeah for features, but not for checking whether a particular function is bound 12:59:15 (I guess i could use #- and remove the not though..) 12:59:28 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 13:02:04 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:02:17 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:03:27 -!- dwim [~user@c-83f9e255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: lunch & home] 13:04:46 -!- marcelinollano [~marcelino@81.Red-79-156-250.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:05:10 -!- housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit 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connection] 14:21:50 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 14:23:45 Alabaman [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:25:20 tsuru` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:25 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:30:30 fiveop [~fiveop@g229083142.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:30:52 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:31:01 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:31:41 -!- Alabaman [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:32:22 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 14:33:03 Xach: re: naggum's bookself: do you know if it is a compilation of all the one's he read at one time but might not be sitting on the shelf currently or if it's distilled down to the ones he liked? 14:33:22 Alabaman [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:34:20 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:35:21 tsuru`: I don't know. My impression is that they were on his shelf. He bought a lot of books. 14:37:26 I asked him privately how he decided to add books to his library, and he replied that he didn't decide, and he had over 300 books he owned that he hadn't read more than a few chapters of, on the day they were purchased. 14:37:47 *tmh* can relate 14:38:25 My wife harasses me about that all the time. Having the books at arms length is comforting. 14:38:27 Xach: okay that's what I was curious about... if it was distilled... I'd be ...dumbfounded 14:39:26 tmh: and then you have to go to work :( 14:39:45 tsuru`: I work from home. ;-) 14:40:09 *Xach* is going to break up that big page into smaller pages, add an index and search. 14:40:13 somehow I knew that retort was coming :P 14:41:57 -!- xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:42:34 xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 14:43:49 -!- konr [~user@187.117.61.75] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:45:58 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-113-61.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:46:17 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:10 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-113-61.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:50:38 brill [~brill@193.3.1.132] has joined #lisp 14:51:04 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:52:26 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has joined #lisp 14:53:18 splittist [~3ecb01e1@gateway/web/freenode/x-vsihlepzjvkoonrj] has joined #lisp 14:54:35 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:55:29 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 14:56:18 -!- davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:56:46 davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:34 kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:37 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 15:04:28 smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has joined #lisp 15:04:59 -!- ramus_ [~ramus@99.23.140.180] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 15:05:14 ramus [~ramus@99.23.140.180] has joined #lisp 15:05:22 -!- mikol [~Michael@AMarseille-753-1-10-194.w90-37.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 15:05:52 -!- frontiers [~frontiers@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:06:40 -!- brill [~brill@193.3.1.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:07:17 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.132] has joined #lisp 15:08:12 Breech_ [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 15:10:22 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 15:10:34 is there an easy way to round double floats to a certain decimal point in common lisp? Like cut of everything below 0.0001 or something... 15:11:14 for what purpose? 15:12:39 Breech_1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 15:12:43 stassats: the value doesnt really matter so much for computational purposes. It would just be nice to have the printer not output the extra .000012d0 or something. 15:13:18 -!- Breech_ [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:13:39 quotemstr_ [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:39 -!- quotemstr_ [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:13:43 quotemstr_ [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:17 demmeln1: if it's only for printing, you'll probably find what you are looking for in clhs 22.3.3 15:14:19 -!- randa [~arand@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: home...] 15:14:20 clhs 22.3.3 15:14:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cc.htm 15:16:18 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:16:18 -!- quotemstr_ is now known as quotemstr 15:17:57 housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 15:18:53 (set-pprint-dispatch 'double-float (lambda (stream float) (let ((*print-pprint-dispatch* (copy-pprint-dispatch nil))) (format stream "~,3f" float)))) 15:18:58 sysop_fb [~bleh@80.255.39.35] has joined #lisp 15:19:30 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:19:44 I tracing certain status changes with timestamps. The resultion is to milliseconds. But sometimes changes happen so fast, that I get more than one in 1 ms and they all have the same timestamp. The exact time doesnt matter, but its important that they are distinct, so i do postprocessing of the like: If less than 10 consecutive timestamps are the same than add 0.0001 elsif less than 100 consecutive timestamps are the same add 0.00001 a 15:21:30 stassats: I dont really want to fiddle with the printer. I want the "nice" numbers mainly for work at the repl. Inspecting the stuff etc... 15:21:35 demmeln1, why not just use higher precision timers 15:21:47 osicat-posix has gettimeofday i think 15:22:16 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rjsmreftnxwcqcyx] has left #lisp 15:22:24 demmeln1: Well that would avoid the problem but at the moment I have to work with what i've got 15:22:49 speaking to myself . 15:23:28 c|mell: I'm loading recorded traces from files and then do the post processing 15:24:50 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.132] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:21 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has joined #lisp 15:27:05 you can use (format t "~3$" 0) to get 3 digits of precision 15:27:48 unfortunately i believe the standard permits implementations to use scientific notation for large numbers 15:27:52 and many do 15:28:21 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]] 15:28:28 c|mell: Since I'm concerned about the number while inspecting the stuff format doesnt really help... 15:30:00 you could put them into a special struct of your own devising and then implement print-object :) 15:30:51 demmeln1: I think the bigger problem is that you are timestamping data at a resolution below it's acquisition rate. Maybe that is where you should correct the issue. 15:32:01 -!- l_a_m [~nlamiraul@194.51.71.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:33:12 demmeln1: ... that's why stassats suggested to customise the pprinter's dispatch table. 15:35:12 -!- sysop_fb [~bleh@80.255.39.35] has left #lisp 15:35:15 -!- a-s [~user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:35:16 tmh: As I said its not possible to change the resolution. And its not my bigger problem, since the exact time does not matter as long as they are all distinct 15:35:27 tmh: and in the right order 15:36:02 tmh: I have right order. I need to additionally make them distinct 15:36:16 demmeln1: Then don't timestamp the data, index it. 15:36:54 demmeln1: yeah, it might be a good idea to have both an index and a timestamp then. 15:36:57 l_a_m [~nlamiraul@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 15:39:07 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:40:43 (defun nuniquify (timestamps) (loop for ts on (cons -1 timestamps) for (a b c) = ts when (and c (eql b c)) do (setf (second ts) (/ (+ a c) 2))) timestamps) 15:41:25 tmh: No that wont work. The data comes in a list in the correct order. So I dont need an index. But I need distinctness. And the time matters very much, but for 2 events that happend at roughly the same time I just care for order, not for exact time 15:41:58 I think the default heap size limit for SBCL x86-64 (don't know about the others) is not as good as it could be 15:42:00 (I agree with everyone else who says that you might want to fix your data source) 15:42:03 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 15:42:17 my ubuntu has 2 GBytes RAM and the following (progn (loop repeat 10000000000 collect nil) (values)) makes it totally unresponsive 15:43:28 levente_meszaros: what did you expect? 15:43:47 I would expect an out of memory error or LDB, but certainly not making the whole os unresposive 15:44:05 you hit swap before OOM. 15:44:06 then turn off swap 15:44:08 pkhuong, if I'm not fast enough with kill I need to turn off my computer 15:44:09 Xof: I'm not sure your code works 15:44:30 pkhuong, Xof I'm talking about the default heap limit 15:44:37 the default heap limit is irrelevant 15:44:39 that should take into account the physical ram 15:44:51 if you have swap in your system, you are saying "I prefer swapping to out-of-memory" 15:44:59 if you don't prefer swapping, turn off swap 15:45:15 Xof, linux swaps without swap... 15:45:21 the read-only pages... 15:45:23 or have a tiny swap, actually. Linux wants a tiny swap. 15:45:24 if you want to limit sbcl's use of memory, man ulimit 15:45:49 ok, let me put it this way, what's the default heap size limit? and why it is using that value? 15:46:23 around 8GB, I believe. It's that large because it's probably good enough for most people. 15:46:46 pkhuong, I strongly disagree 15:47:04 Works for me 15:47:24 Xof: Oh I see its good as long as the first two are not equal 15:47:43 no, it's good also when the first two are not equal 15:48:04 (as long as they are not less than or equal to -1) 15:49:11 it would be great if it consulted the set ulimit 15:49:18 Xof: then one timestamp will be negative 15:49:19 if that's possible 15:49:24 Xof: could be 15:49:27 levente_meszaros: if the user wants to allocate a lot of memory, why should the runtime get in the way? 15:49:46 -!- reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:49:49 The heap size is a limit; might as well make it as realistically large as possible. 15:49:58 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 15:50:31 demmeln1: yes. You said "the exact time doesn't matter". 15:50:36 Xof: and another problem is, that i dont want to interpolate like that. But thanks, its an interesting solution. 15:50:37 to be honest, the default heap size is 8GB for historical reasons only 15:50:39 pkhuong, you misunderstand me 15:51:05 demmeln1: so fix your data source already 15:51:07 pkhuong, the user can always raise the limit 15:51:11 it's about the default 15:51:33 e.g. the java VM uses a default which quickly quits with OOM 15:51:51 obviously I could raise the limit if I wanted to shoot myself on the foot 15:51:55 there are two failure modes of a default. One is the one where you have a long-running process which eventually loses to OOM, and you have to rerun everything 15:52:01 it was set to 8GB since the only reason (at the time) to want a 64 bit lisp is to have a heap larger than 2GB, and with a bloat factor of 2 a 4GB heap wouldn't actually buy anything 15:52:07 levente_meszaros: one usually raises the limit because the environment died and landed in ldb. I'd like to avoid the latter experience as much as possible. 15:52:08 Xof: Well I wont bother you guys any longer. I have an almost working solution and I take your point that it would be much better to fix the date source. My solution to my first question about rounding is: 15:52:15 and at that time we couldn't define a larger heap at runtime, but required a recompile 15:52:18 my main problem with sbcl's defaults is that it doesn't recognize limits set by ulimit 15:52:31 the other is the one where you have a long-running process which, because the admin has configured the box wrongly, causes thrashing 15:52:52 you argue that the thrashing is worse than the data-loss-and-rerun 15:53:05 demmeln pasted "reounding floats" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95109 15:53:22 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:44 pkhuong, I only argue about the default, in any production system I *always* explicitly set the heap size limit 15:53:46 an additional downside to an oversized default heap is that we waste quite a lot of memory on the too-large page table 15:54:00 if only we could grow the heap dynamically! 15:54:05 doing anything else would be really silly 15:54:35 Xof: I think this discussion illustrates why a dynamically growing heap solves nothing :-) 15:54:57 oh, no, then the only people who lose are those who think that they need twice as much swap as RAM 15:55:05 levente_meszaros: my point is that the default should avoid landing in ldb as much as possible. Rebooting the process is much more painful with lisp's development paradigm. 15:55:32 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:55:51 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@220.120.43.80] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:55:58 -!- demmeln1 [~Adium@dslb-094-216-057-146.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:56:12 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-057-146.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:26 pkhuong, you can simply raise your limits, it's not about your default, nor mine 15:56:51 the default should be safe and mostly usable for the rest of the world, I wonder what other VMs are using 15:57:06 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:57:38 The costs are different compared to a mostly edit/compile/run language like java. 15:57:53 the 64 bits Java VM chose a different limit and I guess they also did it on purpose 15:58:36 a sensibly small default heap size + a ldb restart for growing the heap would be neat 15:58:50 wait, that sounds familiar 15:58:57 maybe lichtblau has code that does that? 15:59:02 Xof (: 15:59:30 jsnell: but until then, I'd rather risk thrashing than data loss. 15:59:41 while we're at it, let's add support for 32-bit register pairs and dumping structures to disk! 16:00:38 -!- pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:47 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-113-61.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:01:02 pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:02:09 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-113-61.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:02:52 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-138-238.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 16:03:57 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:04:21 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:06:29 btw, what's the 32 bits heap limit? 16:09:07 0.5G 16:09:18 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 16:09:33 thanks, that doesn't seem to be reasonable if we follow pkhuong's reasoning 16:09:59 so either the this one it too low or the other one is too hight :) 16:10:11 sellout [~greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:12 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-94-44-26-4.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:10:32 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:10:50 well, there are some technical issues that constrain the maximum 32 bit heap sizes a lot too 16:11:31 following that reasoning, the heap limit should be the maximum possible (tag bits, etc)... 16:12:01 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:12:07 that's not a very useful way to argue 16:12:14 the defaults are arbitrary 16:12:15 but that one on a default linux install, even without swap, can bring the whole machine to its knees... 16:12:53 they were selected based on criteria that made sense 5 or 10 years ago 16:14:02 well, i don't want to argue in each direction. just want to point out that i had to unplug my linux a few times due to something wrong in the sbcl repl killing it 16:14:48 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: quotemstr] 16:14:49 yes, and that's a fair enough point 16:14:53 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 16:15:17 comparing the two arbitary values or a unlimited reductio ad absurdum, less so 16:15:30 it would also be nice that it didn't crash by default if there are ulimits set 16:15:45 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:16:39 what should it do instead? 16:16:56 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:17:03 sierinjs [~root@unaffiliated/sierinjs] has joined #lisp 16:17:10 use a smaller heap, and then crash in the middle of your computation of course 16:17:12 it should try to see what the ulimit is and adhere to that value 16:17:27 what do you mean, "adhere"? 16:17:40 naturally, if you have set it up manually to some other value, it should tell you that aswell 16:17:42 what happens when the user requests more memory than is available? 16:17:55 whether that "available" is from the heap limit or from a ulimit? 16:19:21 sebyte [~sebyte@213.229.74.8] has joined #lisp 16:19:29 ldb sounds like a better option than crashing the whole process 16:19:56 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-81-46.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:20:28 trying to guess the heap size based on the ulimit doesn't make a lot of sense to me. if I've got a ulimit of 1GB, what would be an appropriate heap size? 16:20:36 -!- Spaghettini [~Spaghetti@vaxjo7.181.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:21:13 the answer would depend entirely on how much data I'm intending to use on threads (4MB a piece), loading foreign libraries, etc 16:22:02 It's the empirical halting problem (: 16:22:34 i must be over my head in here. the problem i've run into is that i'm on a shell server with loads of ram, but with starting sbcl without manually specifying anything it crashes 16:22:43 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757b58.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:17 and this is because there are limits set 16:23:30 jsnell: re historical reasons, then, if anything, the default should be higher now. 16:23:35 I want to save a list into file, and then load it back succesfully, how? 16:24:29 sierinjs: PRINT and READ. 16:24:40 pkhuong: not without increasing the gc page table size 16:24:42 hi all, is there an equivalent of (setf (fdefinition ...)) for variables? I need to bind some variables with names that are the values of other variables. 16:25:06 it wastes enough memory as is, and people run into the kernel memory segment limits often enough 16:25:18 s/page table/page/ 16:25:45 jewel [~jewel@41.30.49.32] has joined #lisp 16:25:56 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:26:06 jsnell: that too. 16:26:11 sebyte: set or (setf symbol-value), but maybe you want progv instead 16:26:17 sebyte: only for specials. 16:27:03 I'm in the "default should be lower" camp 16:27:45 I'd like to minimise the chances of hard crashes. 16:27:50 I'm in the soft-heap-limit camp 16:28:02 with nifty restarts and happy happy fluffy bunnies 16:28:26 jsnell: Me too. I definitely boot up enough instances and do small things with them that having the common case be low is nice. 16:29:10 Xof: pkhuong: thanks 16:31:01 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:34:10 sbahra [~sbahra@128.164.18.157] has joined #lisp 16:34:24 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:55 hmm, when a dispatching macro char function is called, sbcl always passes the uppercase char to it, rather than whatever the reader actually encountered.. clisp, for example, differs here.. I guess the standard makes no requirements here? 16:35:51 The spec actually says it will be converted to upper 16:36:05 "If sub-char is a lowercase letter, it is converted to its uppercase equivalent. It is an error if sub-char is one of the ten decimal digits. " 16:36:40 I guess it isn't specific for the actual disp-char 16:37:20 But doing a reader macro where the disp-char is a a-zA-Z would be weird... 16:37:26 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:38:13 I'm talking about the char passed to the function 16:38:19 Right. 16:38:48 I think that's what I'm talking about too, here: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_set__1.htm 16:39:32 milanj [~milan@109.93.92.213] has joined #lisp 16:39:43 reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:39:48 i.e. the subchar.. 16:40:18 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Boot me gently] 16:40:33 Yeah, and hte spec (at least there) says that the subchar will be converted to upper case before being passed to the functioned specified in the set-dispatch-macro-character call. 16:40:48 but that's _not_ what I'm talking bout 16:41:17 Ok...color me confused then. What are you talking about? 16:41:49 herbieB: it doesn't say that 16:42:19 conversion in set-dispatch-macro-character is not the same as conversion when calling the reader function 16:42:42 Ah 16:42:42 banister`garden [~ooi@5351F893.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 16:43:06 -!- banisterfiend [~ooi@5351F893.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:43:33 herbieB: the subchar is converted to uppercase for the dispatch, but the char passed to the function is supposed to be the char actually read (perhaps after upcasing, which is what sbcl seems to do) 16:43:36 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:44:15 adeht: I guess that's not how I'm reading hte spec. I'm probably wrong though. 16:44:44 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:44:54 adeht: But I see what you're saying. 16:45:15 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:45:39 -!- xan is now known as xan_ 16:46:48 -!- sebyte [~sebyte@213.229.74.8] has left #lisp 16:46:51 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:49:46 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:51:20 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-113-61.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:51:51 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.132] has joined #lisp 16:53:35 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 16:55:54 konr [~user@189.96.204.89] has joined #lisp 16:58:57 -!- ljames [~ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 16:59:11 -!- konr [~user@189.96.204.89] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:59:37 konr [~user@187.88.133.113] has joined #lisp 17:00:01 zaphyr 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fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 00:41:42 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-237.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:42:30 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 00:45:09 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-24-53.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:45:41 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-24-53.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:48:57 _deepfire: yes :) 00:51:23 -!- marklarr [~user@173-30-20-80.client.mchsi.com] has left #lisp 00:53:04 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@2620:0:1003:1005:21a:a0ff:fe13:f0c0] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:53:09 hmmm.. two questions about defstruct/sbcl: (i) the clhs page mentions (vector size) possibility for type, but sbcl doesn't seem to accept that (ii) if I supply (vector symbol), or some other type, the code generated calls make-array w/ element-type but w/o initial contents and so sbcl chooses to warn.. shouldn't that be muffled? 00:55:03 saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:44 adeht: where do you see (vector size)? 00:55:56 clhs defstruct 00:55:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm 00:56:13 type---one of the type specifiers list, vector, or (vector size), or some other type specifier defined by the implementation to be appropriate. 00:58:10 adeht: that would be an error in the spec. 00:58:17 pkhuong: I think so too 00:59:45 not sure about the *style* warning. 01:00:40 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 01:01:34 I think there's no reason why it should come up 01:01:38 -!- mrbug [~mrbug@cpe-67-241-10-210.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: mrbug] 01:02:39 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:04:24 <_deepfire> blitz_, guess what I'm doing now.. screwing in x86oid support into common-db :-) 01:05:35 <_deepfire> blitz_, there's a certain disconnect about what stuff happens at what level, wrt. control, but I'm hoping to come up with a sensible scheme of things. 01:07:01 <_deepfire> blitz_, AIUI the TSS layout is closely resembling what's in the hardware, whereas the NMI command space is interpreted by the monitor/NOVA? 01:07:56 <_deepfire> Mind you, I'm totally clueless as far as anything outside MIPS goes. 01:12:00 _deepfire: yes, the command space is interpreted by the stub and the monitor 01:13:03 _deepfire: the TSS _is_ written and read by hardware. we just fumble around with it to modify the target's state 01:14:38 _deepfire: we could use normal interrupt gates and don't bother with hardware task switching and TSSs, but since we use NMIs we can interrupt the host OS in places where its stack is invalid and normal IRQ handling would smash random kernel memory 01:15:43 _deepfire: ok, not totally random. Linux uses some major wizardry to recover from this (i.e. the most scary code I've seen in a long time and I pity the bastard that has to maintain this...) 01:15:57 <_deepfire> blitz_, wait, doesn't NMI entry mask out other interrupts? 01:17:48 _deepfire: the problem is the other way around: imagine the OS masking IRQs and playing with its stack pointer. if we get an NMI at this point and use "normal" interrupt handling, the cpu will push an interrupt stack frame where the stack pointer points to 01:18:32 _deepfire: the solution is to get the cpu to switch to a new stack when handling NMIs and that's what x86 hardware task switching is good for 01:19:01 _deepfire: as a bonus the cpu serializes most of its state into a TSS which you can read via firewire 01:19:24 _deepfire: the actual problem was the following: 01:20:39 _deepfire: when NOVA returns to user space it leaves the kernel stack pointer pointing to the current thread's control block. when it reenters kernel mode, it executes a pusha (push all general purpose registers) instruction which writes directly into the TCB 01:20:50 _deepfire: after that NOVA switches to the real kernel stack 01:21:34 _deepfire: if you get an NMI during this you smash the thread's TCB 01:22:02 are you completely confused now? ;) 01:22:21 <_deepfire> Oh, I am :-) 01:23:09 it would be vastly simpler on a sane architecture 01:23:37 it is even simpler on AMD64 ;) 01:24:45 -!- Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-243-96.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: good night] 01:24:49 adeht: I have a potential fix. I'll see about committing that. 01:25:51 _deepfire: if you have questions, just ask :) 01:26:32 <_deepfire> blitz_, it's going to be boilerplate integration stuff for a while, so no questions for now 01:27:02 <_deepfire> blitz_, btw, I liked the qemu-nixon-gdb gdbserver chain :-) 01:27:02 k 01:27:20 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-71-191-247-161.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:27:43 necroforest [~jarred@pool-71-191-247-161.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:45 _deepfire: btw, is GDB stable for you? I had serious problems with GDB segfaulting 01:28:13 _deepfire: debugging code that was built using as -g was especially bad 01:28:54 <_deepfire> blitz_, I was running 7.0.50, built for mipsel-elf32 target, and modulo that weirdness I reported it's good now. 01:29:33 <_deepfire> Ok, that sentence wasn't really intelligible. 01:30:24 -!- ljames [~ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 01:30:28 _deepfire: I currently hack on device virtualization. let's hope GDB is stable for me too when I return to debugging... 01:30:39 <_deepfire> There were two cases for me, one when gdb was buggy as hell, and another when everything went fine -- the difference was made by a dist-upgade on the host machine. 01:31:51 -!- Borkdude_ [~Borkdude@195-241-146-40.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:31:53 <_deepfire> I'm still not positive what exactly was the cause. 01:32:10 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-96.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:34 _deepfire: I had no clue either. wasn't really reproducible 01:32:36 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 01:33:06 <_deepfire> Oh, I remember, there is a scenario where I was still hitting a sigsegv, although it's on a non-critical corner-case path. 01:34:39 <_deepfire> Ok, sleepwards I go. 01:35:06 gn8 01:35:32 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:36:43 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-68.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:13 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:41:35 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:41:53 drafael [~tapio@130.216.93.149] has joined #lisp 01:46:28 pkhuong: cool 01:46:29 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.238] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:47:00 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:11 For an interesting bug, try (lambda () (make-array 0 :element-type nil :initial-contents (list))) 01:49:30 aFlag [~root@189.107.184.230] has joined #lisp 01:49:34 -!- aFlag [~root@189.107.184.230] has left #lisp 01:51:44 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:53:18 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 01:53:36 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.81] has joined #lisp 01:53:45 heh.. 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