(3472478778 :join "ccl-logbot" nil "n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com")
(3472478778 :rpl_topicwhotime "kubrick.freenode.net" "Krystof" 3472401855)
(3472478778 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "ccl-logbot marcoecc phadthai_ knobo grouzen balooga spradnyesh dnolen xinming gigamonkey stassats` alley_cat retroj araujo Adamant timor wakeup mattrepl addled1 Odin- ikki Guthur abeaumont parolang Sumpen lusory unicode prxq Alabaman Hun madnificent opt9` stepnem Edward__ cmeow Helheim dcrawford clop bfein kejsaren tychoish kefka morphling bobrown` herbieB_ konr jleija ThomasI Jasko Kenjin sepult bdowning ryepup billstclair sellout carlocci " nil)
(3472478778 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "LiamH kpreid TDT dv_ qeb`away ski dlowe lukjad007 legumbre c|mell Jabberwockey splittist billitch osaunders potatishandlarn CrazyEddy ignas freiksenet silenius bill` blackened` Axioplase_ spoofy bittin| Nshag levente_meszaros reprore rdd daniel dmiles_afk djinni` Edico fiveop varjag seangrove attila_lendvai mishoo_ tcr mvilleneuve eno G0SUB pbusser |Soulman| galaxywatcher Madsy Demosthenes coyo lpolzer__ Sukoshi`` Modius pjb Dra`vi sledge " nil)
(3472478778 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "keltor srcerer benny Xantoz TR2N chiiph lukego phadthai ams ASau Raptelan wlr xenosoz2 newfurniturey bipt jsoft adeht TJohn ennen fractali` antifuchs hypno rahul mgr moesenle nasloc__ swilde amaron hoeq hicx174 Fufie Adrinael emma lnostdal fgtech s0ber koning_robot skeptical_p ace4016 smithzv AntiSpamMeta thijso boyscared _3b` sytse retupmoca re-l nuba blast_hardcheese Yamazaki-kun kleppari danderson yahooooo schme partisan rsynnott cmatei " nil)
(3472478778 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "mrSpec dfox nowhere_man neaer dto kiuma fihi09 Ri-|away whoppix drwho Taggnostr svaksha Wraithan spn mathrick ivan4th Holcxjo jamesstanley Intensity UnwashedMeme1 hohum tsuru mornfall prip weirdo chii lemoinem housel hdurer l_a_m ve kingdon p_l bunz setheus xristos Ginei_Morioka KatrinaTheLamia specbot Buganini nullman joshe minion yacin DrForr ramus Khisanth j0ni dym guaq_ _3b cupe ianmcorvidae REPLeffect_ cataska Patzy _deepfire Orest^bnc " nil)
(3472478778 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "peterwang rootzlevel malsyned lichtblau jyujin ud mikezor spacebat_ xan sykopomp alexbobp Pepe_ fnordus borism tvaalen dalkvist wgl tltstc PuffTheMagic mle BrianRice manituuuu Xach kuwabara2 skeptomai|away felipe cpt_nemo defn djm cods rey_ gz kencausey anekos derefed aja frodef foom easyE erg nicktastic rbancroft Ober egn froydnj mtd Tordek Fade tic Soulman ecraven z0d EwS reb lupine_85 PissedNumlock rotty_ Tristam clog sjbach rullie wasabi___ " nil)
(3472478778 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "joast pkhuong franki^ koollman lharc Legoolas Xof foom2 ironChicken p8m zbigniew pragma_ joga peddie guaqua Zhivago pok krappie dostoyevsky scode luis ineiros guenthr rlonstein ``Erik rapacity jsnell johs aking tarbo codemonkeyx bakkdoor Borbus " nil)
(3472478808 :privmsg "tcr" "lukego: Many in #lisp are using it. Personally, I think libraries should try to minimize dependencies; \"applications\" should use whatever it takes to get the stuff done" nil)
(3472478827 :privmsg "splittist" "tcr: yes." nil)
(3472478833 :quit "mvilleneuve" "\"Lost terminal\"" "n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr")
(3472478834 :privmsg "lukego" "sounds reasonable" nil)
(3472478845 :privmsg "foom" "it does seem like \"everybody\" is using alexandria these days." nil)
(3472478867 :privmsg "splittist" "but then 'everybody' was using darcs" nil)
(3472478878 :privmsg "tcr" "lukego: For my own libraries, I just copy the ~5 utils I need from alexandria into a utils.lisp and be done with it." nil)
(3472478895 :privmsg "foom" "Well I don't have darcs installed, but I do have alexandria installed. :p" nil)
(3472478896 :privmsg "prxq" "splittist: right, which is interesting. It was known that it could just hang forever." nil)
(3472478943 :privmsg "prxq" "why such a bug was not considered critical is somewhat surprising, imo" nil)
(3472478963 :privmsg "prxq" "s/why/that/" nil)
(3472478967 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "tcr, that reminds me about the next big thing in version control and \"library\" management, namely doing it on a much fine grained level" nil)
(3472479004 :quit "phadthai" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net")
(3472479009 :action "prxq" "also fell for the \"oh that rarely happens\" line" nil)
(3472479022 :privmsg "foom" "The thing that I find somewhat irritating about libraries like alexandria is that since they aren't part of the lisp impl, they don't get the implementation-specific efficiency work done." nil)
(3472479027 :quit "hoeq" "\"leaving\"" "n=hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se")
(3472479042 :join "hoeq" nil "n=hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se")
(3472479043 :privmsg "foom" "But that's probably just me. :)" nil)
(3472479122 :join "gonzojive" nil "n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU")
(3472479141 :privmsg "froydnj" "ah!  ccl::array-data-and-offset...just what I wanted" nil)
(3472479158 :part "osaunders" nil "n=osaunder@89.242.213.116")
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(3472479310 :privmsg "retroj" "my slime does not seem to have the ,load-system command.  what do i need to do?" nil)
(3472479322 :privmsg "stassats`" "load slime-asdf contrib" nil)
(3472479341 :privmsg "retroj" "thanks!" nil)
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(3472480054 :privmsg "wakeup" "http://common-lisp.net/project/rfc2388/" nil)
(3472480062 :privmsg "wakeup" "whats <request-content-type>" nil)
(3472480072 :privmsg "wakeup" ":(" nil)
(3472480075 :privmsg "wakeup" "?" nil)
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(3472480185 :quit "kiuma" "\"Bye bye ppl\"" "n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it")
(3472480196 :privmsg "lichtblau" "wakeup: typical values should be the two mentioned in the sentence right before the code" nil)
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(3472480201 :privmsg "wakeup" "ah" nil)
(3472480212 :privmsg "wakeup" "vo" nil)
(3472480213 :privmsg "wakeup" "no" nil)
(3472480216 :privmsg "wakeup" "I dont think so" nil)
(3472480251 :privmsg "wakeup" "this doesnt even make sense" nil)
(3472480269 :privmsg "wakeup" "how the hell should parse-header know what where to parse" nil)
(3472480319 :privmsg "wakeup" "plus it does not work for me" nil)
(3472480360 :join "ruediger" nil "n=quassel@188-23-187-25.adsl.highway.telekom.at")
(3472480419 :privmsg "konr" "Have you watched the SICP lectures? There are the original ones (http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/) and another set from Berkeley (http://academicearth.org/lectures/functional-programming-i) and I wonder if any of them is much better than the other" nil)
(3472480434 :privmsg "tcr" "take the original ones they're just great" nil)
(3472480451 :privmsg "tcr" "it's the authors of the book" nil)
(3472480587 :privmsg "_3b" "wakeup: looks like it should be (the contents of?) the content-type header" nil)
(3472480677 :quit "Edward__" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-56-202.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr")
(3472480689 :join "Edward" nil "n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-56-202.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr")
(3472480780 :privmsg "wakeup" "_3b: only thing I got, is a stream (stdin)" nil)
(3472480871 :privmsg "lichtblau" "well, does that stream have anything in it that looks like \"multipart/form-data; boundary=foo\" then?" nil)
(3472480907 :privmsg "wakeup" "I cant say for sure, but I hope so" nil)
(3472480909 :privmsg "wakeup" "well" nil)
(3472480916 :privmsg "wakeup" "maybe I should just check it out" nil)
(3472480929 :privmsg "_3b" "seems like you should be looking at pasring headers first then" nil)
(3472480944 :privmsg "_3b" "(or finding an already written library to deal with all this stuff for you)" nil)
(3472480975 :privmsg "lichtblau" "well, rfc2388 _is_ the library that parses the headers.  From a string or a stream." nil)
(3472480990 :privmsg "tcr" "ECL comes with serve-event, but that its IO operation is not based on it" nil)
(3472480990 :privmsg "wakeup" "this" nil)
(3472481005 :privmsg "_3b" "ah, from the docs i thought it just parsed post bodies or something" nil)
(3472481006 :quit "Jasko" "\"Leaving\"" "n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net")
(3472481009 :quit "grouzen" "Remote closed the connection" "n=grouzen@91.214.124.2")
(3472481023 :privmsg "tcr" "so I'm not looking for the right place where SWANK would have to manually call serve-all-events" nil)
(3472481159 :join "kejsaren_" nil "n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net")
(3472481174 :privmsg "wakeup" "how do I print out *standard-input*?" nil)
(3472481198 :privmsg "pkhuong" "(print *standard-input*)?" nil)
(3472481230 :privmsg "wakeup" "nope thats not it ;)" nil)
(3472481244 :privmsg "pkhuong" "that definitely prints *standard-input*." nil)
(3472481261 :privmsg "wakeup" "whatever :)" nil)
(3472481263 :privmsg "tcr" "When are events implicitly served in SBCL?" nil)
(3472481270 :privmsg "_3b" "maybe he wanted (print \"*standard-input*\") ?" nil)
(3472481273 :privmsg "foom" "tcr: freaking everywhere" nil)
(3472481280 :privmsg "foom" "tcr: (what a pain in the ass.)" nil)
(3472481303 :privmsg "tcr" "foom: not in sleep :-)" nil)
(3472481317 :privmsg "tcr" "I'd appreciate any comment in that thread, btw" nil)
(3472481317 :privmsg "wakeup" "no I want to see whats in stdin" nil)
(3472481333 :privmsg "foom" "which thread?" nil)
(3472481348 :privmsg "tcr" "foom: \"deadlines, *periodic-polling-function*, sbcl-devel, few hours ago" nil)
(3472481355 :join "grouzen" nil "n=grouzen@91.214.124.2")
(3472481372 :privmsg "pkhuong" "ah, so you want to _read_ from *standard-input*." nil)
(3472481379 :privmsg "wakeup" "yep" nil)
(3472481389 :privmsg "wakeup" "and print its contents" nil)
(3472481422 :privmsg "foom" "oh." nil)
(3472481431 :privmsg "foom" "I forget how deadlines work. do they not use a signal?" nil)
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(3472481459 :privmsg "tcr" "They do. but it's not about deadlines (anymore) but serve-event" nil)
(3472481478 :privmsg "foom" "well, but, if they do, then open should be interruptible with a signal." nil)
(3472481534 :privmsg "tcr" "foom: Deadlines are explicit-computed timeouts, not async signals" nil)
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(3472481568 :privmsg "tcr" "foom: but I referred to my very first mail, not the stuff about named pipes" nil)
(3472481570 :quit "Alabaman" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com")
(3472481656 :action "tcr" "bbl (~30min)" nil)
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(3472481955 :quit "marcoecc" "Remote closed the connection" "i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F")
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(3472482376 :privmsg "lukego" "ok I'm ready to end my day with the usual ritual chanting of \"okay NOW linux can't have any surprises left for me\"" nil)
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(3472482521 :quit "Jabberwockey" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=jens@193.174.12.194")
(3472482765 :action "Xach" "is a little sad his phrase search data structure took 3x more memory than he expected" nil)
(3472482781 :privmsg "froydnj" "Xach: :(  why?" nil)
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(3472482842 :privmsg "pkhuong" "Xach: what's your current method?" nil)
(3472482851 :join "snearch_" nil "n=olaf@e179143031.adsl.alicedsl.de")
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(3472482906 :action "splittist" "is v interested in text search/information extraction at the moment..." nil)
(3472482913 :privmsg "Xach" "each document gets a vector of term ids as they appear in the document, a sorted vector of unique term ids, and (corresponding to the last bit) a vector of vectors of term occurrence positions. i musta carried a two somewhere i shouldn'ta." nil)
(3472482970 :privmsg "Xach" "there are 1.7M terms" nil)
(3472482979 :privmsg "Xach" "it's taking up maybe 40MB in memory though." nil)
(3472483009 :privmsg "pkhuong" "is it really faster/simpler than just shoving it through cl-ppcre or cl-irregsexp?" nil)
(3472483048 :privmsg "Xach" "pkhuong: It's pretty fast. I haven't tried using those to compare." nil)
(3472483063 :privmsg "guaqua" "Xach: are they stemmed or just unique words?" nil)
(3472483065 :privmsg "Xach" "It's not simpler." nil)
(3472483089 :privmsg "Xach" "guaqua: \"stemmed\" is to charitable a word for what i do to clean up the words. but they are cleaned up a little." nil)
(3472483094 :privmsg "Xach" "too charitable, rather" nil)
(3472483122 :privmsg "guaqua" "you could say 'normalized' then, i guess :)" nil)
(3472483135 :privmsg "Xach" "pkhuong: loading all the text of all the articles in memory would take up more space, i think, and leaving it on disk would take a lot of i/o. i'm happy with the current memory/speed tradeoff." nil)
(3472483160 :privmsg "pkhuong" "mmap ;)" nil)
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(3472483314 :privmsg "Xach" "if i was going to mmap something, i'd probably mmap the index structure instead of the raw articles." nil)
(3472483377 :action "Xach" "will add some kind of excerpt next" nil)
(3472483381 :privmsg "guaqua" "do you serialize the data in some way?" nil)
(3472483390 :privmsg "guaqua" "err, index" nil)
(3472483399 :privmsg "Xach" "guaqua: yes." nil)
(3472483401 :part "kenanb" nil "n=kenanb@88.238.42.177")
(3472483424 :privmsg "pkhuong" "Xach: related entries maybe?" nil)
(3472483429 :privmsg "guaqua" "well, mmapping is just quick serialization method then, i guess" nil)
(3472483466 :privmsg "tcr" "foom: So I'm wrong in expecting an invocation of sleep to have my event handlers run?" nil)
(3472483477 :privmsg "Xach" "pkhuong: that would be interesting, too" nil)
(3472483545 :privmsg "pkhuong" "can I post to sbcl-general without subscribing?" nil)
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(3472534041 :names "zelazny.freenode.net" "ccl-logbot stepnem bdowning mathrick Soulman ASau` Ralith mishoo_ smackarang Dodek splittist mvilleneuve Borbus bakkdoor codemonkeyx tarbo aking johs jsnell rapacity ``Erik rlonstein guenthr ineiros luis scode krappie pok Zhivago guaqua peddie joga pragma_ zbigniew p8m ironChicken Xof Legoolas lharc franki^ pkhuong joast wasabi___ rullie sjbach clog Tristam rotty_ PissedNumlock lupine_85 EwS z0d ecraven tic Fade mtd froydnj egn rbancroft " nil)
(3472534041 :names "zelazny.freenode.net" "nicktastic erg aja skeptomai|away kuwabara2 Xach manituuuu BrianRice mle PuffTheMagic tvaalen Pepe_ sykopomp mikezor ud jyujin lichtblau Orest^bnc prip Intensity jamesstanley Wraithan drwho skeptical_p Adrinael nasloc__ mgr hypno jsoft newfurniturey Raptelan ASau chiiph Xantoz Dra`vi dmiles_afk daniel Axioplase_ bill` ski qeb`away opt9` lusory phadthai b4|hraban lukego ignas foom2 Aisling antoszka sleepydog Stattrav dostoyev1ky koollman benny " nil)
(3472534041 :names "zelazny.freenode.net" "legumbre xenosoz2 dnm_ sepult Modius slyrus balooga jrockway Ober potatishandlarn spradnyesh peterwang tmh Adlai GrayGnome` Soulman__ addled Spaghettini abeaumont wlr galaxywatcher plage Khisanth OmniMancer1 konr lpolzer_ ace4016 Phoodus oconnore_ huangjs kpreid wakeup^ araujo billitch prxq arbscht stoop tsuru QinGW Tordek spacebat stassats redline6561 hicx174 p_l fe[nl]ix sellout madnificent a-s lisppaste Nshag Jasko plan9 reb raison TR2N " nil)
(3472534041 :names "zelazny.freenode.net" "plutonas svaksha saikatc hoeq knobo xinming Adamant ikki cmeow Helheim dcrawford clop bfein tychoish kefka herbieB_ ryepup billstclair lukjad007 CrazyEddy spoofy rdd djinni` varjag eno G0SUB Madsy Demosthenes pjb sledge keltor srcerer ams bipt TJohn ennen antifuchs rahul moesenle swilde Fufie emma lnostdal fgtech s0ber koning_robot smithzv AntiSpamMeta thijso boyscared _3b` sytse retupmoca re-l nuba blast_hardcheese Yamazaki-kun kleppari " nil)
(3472534041 :names "zelazny.freenode.net" "danderson yahooooo schme rsynnott spec[away] dfox nowhere_man neaer dto fihi09 Ri-|away whoppix Taggnostr spn ivan4th Holcxjo hohum mornfall weirdo frodef foom easyE derefed anekos kencausey gz rey_ cods djm defn cpt_nemo felipe tltstc dalkvist borism fnordus alexbobp xan rootzlevel _deepfire Patzy cataska REPLeffect_ ianmcorvidae cupe _3b guaq_ dym j0ni ramus DrForr yacin minion joshe nullman Buganini specbot KatrinaTheLamia Ginei_Morioka " nil)
(3472534041 :names "zelazny.freenode.net" "xristos bunz kingdon chii lemoinem housel hdurer l_a_m ve " nil)
(3472534044 :join "Athas" nil "n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk")
(3472534061 :privmsg "_deepfire" "I follow, yes.." nil)
(3472534196 :privmsg "Zhivago" "If we think of new defuns and so on as being appended to the environment, then that's a 'higher environment' than the b 10 environment." nil)
(3472534197 :privmsg "Zhivago" "So, instead of doing that, what you could do is to remember the environment where you would have done the defun." nil)
(3472534197 :privmsg "Zhivago" "And then enter into that environment again where you would have done a function call, added the parameters into the environment, then expanded what would have been the body of the function out." nil)
(3472534198 :privmsg "Zhivago" "And that would be equivalent to doing a function call." nil)
(3472534199 :privmsg "Zhivago" "The main difference is that recursive functions would become infinitely large expansions." nil)
(3472534213 :join "ccl-logbot" nil "n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com")
(3472534213 :rpl_topicwhotime "verne.freenode.net" "Krystof" 3472401855)
(3472534213 :names "verne.freenode.net" "ccl-logbot Athas stepnem bdowning mathrick Soulman ASau` Ralith mishoo_ smackarang Dodek splittist frodef foom easyE derefed anekos kencausey gz rey_ cods djm defn cpt_nemo felipe tltstc dalkvist borism fnordus alexbobp xan rootzlevel _deepfire Patzy cataska REPLeffect_ ianmcorvidae cupe _3b guaq_ dym j0ni ramus DrForr yacin minion joshe nullman Buganini specbot KatrinaTheLamia Ginei_Morioka xristos bunz kingdon ve l_a_m hdurer housel lemoinem " nil)
(3472534213 :names "verne.freenode.net" "chii weirdo mornfall hohum Holcxjo ivan4th spn Taggnostr whoppix Ri-|away fihi09 dto neaer nowhere_man dfox spec[away] rsynnott schme yahooooo danderson kleppari Yamazaki-kun blast_hardcheese nuba re-l retupmoca sytse _3b` boyscared thijso AntiSpamMeta smithzv koning_robot s0ber fgtech lnostdal emma Fufie swilde moesenle rahul antifuchs ennen TJohn bipt ams srcerer keltor sledge pjb Demosthenes Madsy G0SUB eno varjag djinni` rdd spoofy CrazyEddy " nil)
(3472534213 :names "verne.freenode.net" "lukjad007 billstclair ryepup herbieB_ kefka tychoish bfein clop dcrawford Helheim cmeow ikki Adamant xinming knobo hoeq saikatc svaksha plutonas TR2N raison reb plan9 Jasko Nshag lisppaste a-s madnificent sellout fe[nl]ix p_l hicx174 redline6561 stassats spacebat Tordek QinGW tsuru stoop arbscht prxq billitch araujo wakeup^ kpreid huangjs oconnore_ Phoodus ace4016 lpolzer_ konr OmniMancer1 Khisanth plage galaxywatcher wlr abeaumont Spaghettini " nil)
(3472534213 :names "verne.freenode.net" "addled Soulman__ GrayGnome` Adlai mvilleneuve tmh peterwang spradnyesh potatishandlarn Ober jrockway balooga slyrus Modius sepult dnm_ xenosoz2 legumbre benny koollman dostoyev1ky Stattrav sleepydog antoszka Aisling foom2 ignas lukego b4|hraban phadthai lusory opt9` qeb`away ski bill` Axioplase_ daniel dmiles_afk Dra`vi Xantoz chiiph ASau Raptelan newfurniturey jsoft hypno mgr nasloc__ Adrinael skeptical_p drwho Wraithan jamesstanley Intensity " nil)
(3472534213 :names "verne.freenode.net" "prip Orest^bnc lichtblau jyujin ud mikezor sykopomp Pepe_ tvaalen PuffTheMagic mle BrianRice manituuuu Xach kuwabara2 skeptomai|away aja erg nicktastic rbancroft egn froydnj mtd Fade tic ecraven z0d EwS lupine_85 PissedNumlock rotty_ Tristam clog sjbach rullie wasabi___ joast pkhuong franki^ lharc Legoolas Xof ironChicken Borbus bakkdoor codemonkeyx tarbo aking johs jsnell rapacity ``Erik rlonstein guenthr ineiros luis scode krappie pok Zhivago " nil)
(3472534213 :names "verne.freenode.net" "guaqua peddie joga pragma_ zbigniew p8m " nil)
(3472534216 :privmsg "Zhivago" "But, you could do beta abstraction in the compiler and have the compiler figure out where to generate functions." nil)
(3472534255 :privmsg "Zhivago" "However without being able to say \"I am dropping back to a higher environment\" in many cases it wouldn't be able to do this easily." nil)
(3472534263 :privmsg "_deepfire" "I.e. let the compiler itself decide at which points of dynamic contours to draw function boundaries?" nil)
(3472534267 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Yes." nil)
(3472534297 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Well, not sure that dynamic contour is right." nil)
(3472534319 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Lexical contour is probably more correct." nil)
(3472534388 :privmsg "_deepfire" "That sure sounds like a more generic approach in terms of implementation." nil)
(3472534388 :privmsg "_deepfire" "But what does it offer in terms of abstraction?  I think I have a feeling, but not much more than just that.." nil)
(3472534404 :privmsg "_deepfire" "(By the way, I think I saw a related paper referenced on LtU)" nil)
(3472534410 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Well, I have been pondering 'what does it mean to be lisp'?" nil)
(3472534416 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Do you remember the title?" nil)
(3472534428 :part "TR2N" nil "i=email@89-180-188-135.net.novis.pt")
(3472534430 :join "Beetny" nil "n=Beetny@ppp121-45-54-127.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net")
(3472534442 :join "morphling" nil "n=stefan@gssn-5f75514b.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472534448 :privmsg "Zhivago" "So far my best answer is 'everything is (potentially) a cut point' (in AoP terms)." nil)
(3472534468 :privmsg "tic" "mathrick, working on the bus to Italy (or rather, Malmö as the first stop) w/ my netbook and a 3G dongle. Remoting in to my work computer. Yay for screen." nil)
(3472534511 :privmsg "_deepfire" "It was a long time ago, so no, but I sort-of remember the idea -- whole program optimisation which considers the global dynamic contours for the purposes of inlining/optimisation." nil)
(3472534526 :privmsg "mathrick" "tic: oh, I see" nil)
(3472534527 :join "freiksenet" nil "n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi")
(3472534538 :privmsg "_deepfire" "I may still be able to find it.." nil)
(3472534555 :privmsg "Zhivago" "deepfire: Sounds interesting. If you do find it, please let me know." nil)
(3472534725 :join "Edward" nil "n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-65-128.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr")
(3472534725 :privmsg "mathrick" "_deepfire, Zhivago: that sounds like the opposite of what I'm pondering, how to take a LispOS and introduce modularisation, sandboxing, process separation etc., without losing what makes it a LispOS" nil)
(3472534732 :privmsg "Zhivago" "deepfire: Anyhow, in my case I thought \"wouldn't it be interesting to go back to the start of lisp when they wanted to do everything by substitution rather than application.\"" nil)
(3472534741 :join "mstevens" nil "n=mstevens@eris.etla.org")
(3472534754 :privmsg "mathrick" "so that, if you really want, you can redefine the builtin bits, but in a way that makes it impossible to wedge your system" nil)
(3472534758 :privmsg "mathrick" "*accidentally" nil)
(3472534772 :privmsg "Zhivago" "mathrick: Sounds like re-inventing unix." nil)
(3472534787 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Stick everything into virtual machines and connect with pipes. :)" nil)
(3472534791 :privmsg "mathrick" "Zhivago: except that unix has really poor primitives to work with" nil)
(3472534812 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Lisp machines connected with pipes would be nice." nil)
(3472534814 :privmsg "Adlai" "yeah, I can't find /bin/car" nil)
(3472534820 :privmsg "mathrick" "\"bytestream\" is such a low level of abstraction that it's impossible to get anything less crappy than /bin/sh" nil)
(3472534842 :privmsg "Zhivago" "It's only impossible due to the lack of metadata support." nil)
(3472534857 :privmsg "mathrick" "that's the level of abstraction" nil)
(3472534861 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Telnet has some useful lessons here." nil)
(3472534875 :privmsg "mathrick" "every abstraction you can think of has to be represent in terms of bytes eventually" nil)
(3472534882 :privmsg "mathrick" "it's all about metadata you have added" nil)
(3472534887 :privmsg "_deepfire" "Zhivago, \"A Framework for Unrestricted Whole-Program Optimization\" by Triantafyllis, Bridges, Raman, Ottoni and August" nil)
(3472534904 :privmsg "tic" "ohh, LispOS. Interesting. How many attempts are there now? :-)" nil)
(3472534929 :privmsg "mathrick" "Zhivago: but in essence, yeah, I'd like to have something that is as good as real LispM's, but doesn't lose the good bits of Unix" nil)
(3472534930 :privmsg "Zhivago" "mathrick: Yes, but there are certain conventions that you can make obligatory." nil)
(3472534934 :privmsg "tic" "I can't remember plage's attempt at a portable CL runtime, but that might be a good starting point." nil)
(3472534936 :join "QinGW1" nil "n=wangqing@203.86.89.226")
(3472534943 :privmsg "mathrick" "tic: oh?" nil)
(3472534955 :privmsg "Zhivago" "mathrick: With telnet they escape from the box by having a meta-protocol for negotiating capabilities." nil)
(3472534959 :privmsg "mathrick" "plage: can I have a link for that?" nil)
(3472534968 :privmsg "tic" "mathrick, it's a word play, but I can't really not remember the name." nil)
(3472534973 :privmsg "tic" "and I turned off my home computer." nil)
(3472534977 :privmsg "Zhivago" "mathrick: If you were to do something even simpler, like force every pipe to start in a capability negotiation ..." nil)
(3472534995 :privmsg "mathrick" "Zhivago: that's not the part I really think about" nil)
(3472534997 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Ah, procedure boundary elimination." nil)
(3472535001 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Lovely :)" nil)
(3472535026 :privmsg "Zhivago" "deepfire: Thanks, but I have access. :)" nil)
(3472535027 :privmsg "mathrick" "I was thinking of \"how to retain the traditional image-centric environment of Lisp without giving up the resilience of sandboxed processes\"" nil)
(3472535050 :privmsg "mathrick" "because you want to be able to modify bits and pieces when you want to modify them" nil)
(3472535084 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Why image centric?" nil)
(3472535108 :privmsg "mathrick" "but also having to reboot because you happened to DEFCLASS something stupid while writing code is not what I'd expect from my OS" nil)
(3472535135 :privmsg "mathrick" "Zhivago: because Lisps aren't just compilers spitting out binaries" nil)
(3472535135 :privmsg "mathrick" "they center on the image, which is where the implementation and the client code can talk to each other and interact" nil)
(3472535145 :privmsg "mathrick" "that's a much richer model than \"spit out an .o\"" nil)
(3472535161 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Sounds like 'process centric' in unix terms." nil)
(3472535192 :privmsg "mathrick" "Zhivago: that's the point, there are no \"processes\" inside the current implementations' images" nil)
(3472535230 :privmsg "Zhivago" "And there shouldn't be." nil)
(3472535232 :privmsg "mathrick" "if I load hunchentoot into my SBCL, and then something else, they will have ample possibilities to step onto each other's toes" nil)
(3472535236 :privmsg "Zhivago" "The images should be inside the processes. :)" nil)
(3472535247 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Since the processes are virtual machines." nil)
(3472535279 :privmsg "mathrick" "Zhivago: ćh, you pick one particular implementation and then jump to \"this is the only possible solution and also the definition of the problem\"" nil)
(3472535283 :quit "chiiph" "\"WeeChat 0.2.6.3\"" "n=chiiph@190.1.21.180")
(3472535294 :privmsg "mathrick" "I don't know if they have to be VMs communicating with pipes" nil)
(3472535308 :privmsg "Zhivago" "I think that they do, ultimately." nil)
(3472535315 :privmsg "Zhivago" "But pipes come in different sizes." nil)
(3472535319 :privmsg "mathrick" "the image would be the OS environment" nil)
(3472535331 :privmsg "mathrick" "so if you modified the image itself, every process would see the result" nil)
(3472535345 :join "grouzen" nil "n=grouzen@91.214.124.2")
(3472535345 :privmsg "mathrick" "but if you only did something within the process sandbox, it'd be localised" nil)
(3472535365 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Sounds like shared memory. :)" nil)
(3472535399 :join "Axius" nil "n=oijhif@92.82.70.85")
(3472535402 :privmsg "mathrick" "obviously, at some level it'd be shared" nil)
(3472535405 :privmsg "tic" "mathrick, http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/SICL/sicl.git !" nil)
(3472535487 :privmsg "mathrick" "but the problem is, I haven't seen any sensible model, or even attempt at creating one, of making LispMs that aren't an invitation to be hacked" nil)
(3472535487 :quit "plage" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=user@113.161.70.106")
(3472535487 :privmsg "tic" "there's a pdf somewhere, I think at .../SICL/sicl.pdf" nil)
(3472535493 :privmsg "p_l" "mathrick: you know, it could work very well with L4's \"Address Spaces\"..." nil)
(3472535525 :join "levente_meszaros" nil "n=levente_@apn-94-44-31-178.vodafone.hu")
(3472535579 :privmsg "mathrick" "p_l: possibly, but still there's nothing I'm aware of where someone'd have tried to produce a coherent model (or maybe even implementation!) to start from" nil)
(3472535579 :privmsg "Zhivago" "mathrick: Well, the problem is that you need to have protocols for communicating with the objects in the shared memory in order to respect their invariants." nil)
(3472535579 :privmsg "Zhivago" "mathrick: The simplest way to do that is to ... use a pipe :)" nil)
(3472535580 :privmsg "Zhivago" "mathrick: But that doesn't need to be a pipe of bytes" nil)
(3472535587 :join "amaron" nil "n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs")
(3472535614 :privmsg "mathrick" "I should read the W7 paper to the end one day" nil)
(3472535682 :privmsg "guaqua" "it needs quite strict limits and some limits on how you can hack the central parts of the underlying lisp" nil)
(3472535696 :quit "spradnyesh" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hydlrzaaizywinav")
(3472535706 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Nah, it just needs you to talk to the underlying lisp and ask it nicely to modify itself." nil)
(3472535707 :privmsg "guaqua" "means to guarantee stability" nil)
(3472535712 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Then you can negotiate." nil)
(3472535828 :privmsg "mathrick" "a proper security system would take care of that, but that's only the limitations part taken care of. You need the opposite, sharing, to work somehow too" nil)
(3472535828 :privmsg "guaqua" "i guess stability of interfaces is not that much of a technical thing as cultural and developmental" nil)
(3472535828 :quit "QinGW" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=wangqing@203.86.89.226")
(3472535829 :privmsg "mathrick" "p_l: is there any paper about these address spaces?" nil)
(3472535870 :privmsg "mathrick" "guaqua: it's very important though, at least for me" nil)
(3472535904 :privmsg "mathrick" "if something is to be learnt from the PC revolution, it's that every successful idea will eventually have a larger audience than it bargained for" nil)
(3472535924 :privmsg "mathrick" "so you need things that scale to larger numbers before they collapse" nil)
(3472535970 :privmsg "mathrick" "stable interfaces are #1 or close to in making it happen" nil)
(3472535990 :privmsg "splittist" "mathrick: or require endless contortions on the part of users forever cf Make" nil)
(3472536006 :quit "sepult" "Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-26-177.netcologne.de")
(3472536037 :privmsg "mathrick" "splittist: sure, but it's probably still better than making endless contortions to distribute the changes to everyone affected" nil)
(3472536055 :privmsg "mathrick" "and good interfaces can minimise this" nil)
(3472536104 :privmsg "mathrick" "tic: damn, I can't see that paper anywhere" nil)
(3472536148 :privmsg "tic" "wait, I fix." nil)
(3472536176 :privmsg "tic" "It's directly under strandh, says irssi." nil)
(3472536191 :privmsg "mathrick" "yeah, just googled that out" nil)
(3472536246 :join "somecodehere" nil "n=ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee")
(3472536340 :privmsg "guaqua" "mathrick: important, but if solved through technical means it might make it too rigid to get it flying" nil)
(3472536358 :privmsg "guaqua" "or too rigid to get it flying without extensive industry backing :)" nil)
(3472536438 :join "sepult" nil "n=levgue@xdsl-87-79-119-35.netcologne.de")
(3472536530 :privmsg "mathrick" "\"stable\" at this point means \"possible to define in a way that provides some notion of stability\" as well as \"built into the culture from the beginning\"" nil)
(3472536531 :quit "mstevens" "\"leaving\"" "n=mstevens@eris.etla.org")
(3472536532 :privmsg "mathrick" "not \"stable\" as in \"defined on pp. 194-196 of the first edition\"" nil)
(3472536532 :privmsg "_deepfire" "Zhivago, the point is, I guess, that unless you have process boundary separation you can always SB-SYS:SAP-REF-* your way around any restrictions." nil)
(3472536551 :privmsg "mathrick" "yup" nil)
(3472536562 :privmsg "mathrick" "and I'm SO not implementing a C runtime on top of such an OS" nil)
(3472536657 :quit "oconnore_" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=oconnore@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net")
(3472536690 :privmsg "guaqua" "mathrick: yes, it's better that way" nil)
(3472536692 :join "kingdon_" nil "i=yebyen@irie-arch.rit.edu")
(3472536698 :join "FullMetalHarlot" nil "n=root13@li130-87.members.linode.com")
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(3472536703 :quit "kingdon" "Broken pipe" "i=yebyen@irie-arch.rit.edu")
(3472536703 :quit "hohum" "Broken pipe" "i=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net")
(3472536703 :quit "emma" "Success" "n=em@unaffiliated/emma")
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(3472536703 :quit "ennen" "Broken pipe" "n=nn@studio25.org")
(3472536703 :quit "KatrinaTheLamia" "Broken pipe" "n=root13@li130-87.members.linode.com")
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(3472536784 :join "anair_84" nil "n=anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net")
(3472536961 :privmsg "mathrick" "hmm, I guess the above was rather ambiguous" nil)
(3472536961 :privmsg "mathrick" "\"such an OS\" == without process boundaries now" nil)
(3472537030 :join "spradnyesh" nil "n=pradyus@122.166.152.212")
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(3472537307 :quit "hoeq" "\"leaving\"" "n=hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se")
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(3472538963 :privmsg "p_l" "mathrick: read L4 documentation, for an implementation/version that uses the later process/thread API. But it boils down to the fact that L4 Address Spaces are hierarchical, so implementing a shared master image + per-process sub-images wouldn't be that hard" nil)
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(3472539345 :privmsg "p_l" "mathrick: the whole process structure in L4 is actually a tree (not a graph unless you tweak it a little in upper node), and instead of \"processes\" it has \"Address Spaces\" and \"threads\"" nil)
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(3472541378 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "this deadlocks (with-compilation-unit () (trivial-shell:shell-command \"ls\"))" nil)
(3472541397 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "just after loading trivial-shell" nil)
(3472541423 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "I think this is due to some PCL cache due to a generic function used in reading the standard output" nil)
(3472541429 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "done in a separate thread" nil)
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(3472541439 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "how would you fix that/" nil)
(3472541441 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "?" nil)
(3472541470 :quit "billitch" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net")
(3472541470 :nick "billitch_" "billitch" "n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net")
(3472541590 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "ASDF wraps operate in a with-compilation-unit" nil)
(3472541623 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "that effectively means that you can't call trivial-shell:shell-command from asdf:test-op" nil)
(3472541639 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "because it would deadlock (this is SBCL)" nil)
(3472541664 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "any idea?" nil)
(3472541729 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "the best I could come up so far is run (trivial-shell:shell-command \"\") before asdf:operate so PCL caches become up to date" nil)
(3472541884 :nick "m4dnificent" "madnificent" "n=madnific@83.101.62.132")
(3472541925 :quit "daniel" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel")
(3472541931 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "but that is quite fragile" nil)
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(3472542098 :privmsg "madnificent" "levente_meszaros: looks like an evil hack" nil)
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(3472542204 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "madnificent, yes, but what else can I do?" nil)
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(3472542399 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "I think ASDF is generally broken in that WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT wraps all PERFORM calls independently of the operation" nil)
(3472542606 :privmsg "Krystof" "levente_meszaros: the proper fix is to make the compiler vaguely threadsafe" nil)
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(3472542708 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "Krystof, that would certainly fix this, but unfortunately not going to happen soon..." nil)
(3472542732 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "I still think that ASDF is broken wrt to the above" nil)
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(3472542906 :privmsg "Krystof" "levente_meszaros: I don't know how hard it is to make the compiler threadsafe" nil)
(3472542910 :privmsg "Krystof" "it would fix a whole heap of things, though" nil)
(3472542919 :privmsg "Krystof" "and it's probably not /that/ hard" nil)
(3472542949 :privmsg "Krystof" "I'd suggest asking nikodemus for an estimate" nil)
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(3472543004 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "Krystof, I'm not experienced enough to fix the compiler and I guess Nikodemus has other things to do" nil)
(3472543046 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "I think I will need to find another workaround or just use that broken one above" nil)
(3472543065 :privmsg "lukego" "hey wow I had a blog post cited in #lisp :)" nil)
(3472543162 :privmsg "Krystof" "levente_meszaros: if nikodemus doesn't get requests, he doesn't know what to prioritise" nil)
(3472543212 :join "Joreji" nil "n=thomas@134.61.80.139")
(3472543313 :privmsg "mathrick" "SBCL knowledgeable peoples: any idea how hard it'd be to update http://jsnell.iki.fi/blog/archive/2005-07-06.html to work with a modern SBCL? Ie. aside from the fact that SHAKE-LISP-AND-DIE obviously doesn't work right now, have the internals changed in a way that'd make it dramatically harder, or is it just a matter of tracking what the features are called right now and updating the references?" nil)
(3472543371 :privmsg "tcr" "levente_meszaros: the with-compilation-unit around every operation is annoying, yes: https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/507378" nil)
(3472543394 :privmsg "mathrick" "I don't need it to be very good at all, if it can get me a starting image at 11MB instead of 40MB, I'm very happy already" nil)
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(3472543659 :privmsg "lnostdal" "what about stuff like bzexe, mathrick ? .. i have a large core that goes from 80MB to 13MB her" nil)
(3472543685 :privmsg "lnostdal" "here*" nil)
(3472543688 :privmsg "mathrick" "lnostdal: I tried one of these before, SBCL didn't like it at all" nil)
(3472543722 :privmsg "lnostdal" "hm, works here" nil)
(3472543729 :privmsg "mathrick" "but still I planned to apply compression afterwards, I just wanted to start with a smaller thing to compress :)" nil)
(3472543736 :privmsg "lnostdal" "but yeah, i recall one of the compressable-executable thingies not working" nil)
(3472543760 :privmsg "lnostdal" "(upx did not work IIRC)" nil)
(3472543848 :privmsg "mathrick" "I think that was upx" nil)
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(3472544850 :privmsg "splittist" "lukego: you climate coward!" nil)
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(3472545083 :privmsg "lukego" "splittist: pathetic I know :-) but I promise to come back with renewed enthusiasm for snow" nil)
(3472545112 :privmsg "stassats`" "with a shovel?" nil)
(3472545202 :privmsg "Xach" "those damn $6 mangos" nil)
(3472545253 :privmsg "tcr" "Hmm I wonder if there are better names than \"make-waitqueue\" as the constructor, and then \"condition-wait\" / \"condition-notify\" as the performers" nil)
(3472545274 :privmsg "tcr" "Why isn't the constructor called make-condition-variable?" nil)
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(3472546219 :privmsg "tcr" "(let ((f (make-frobber))) (flet ((frob (&rest args) (apply f args)) ...) Is it safe to pass #'frob to multiple threads, assuming the closure resulting from make-frobber is thread-safe?" nil)
(3472546227 :privmsg "tcr" "Or are there nasty surprises?" nil)
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(3472551413 :part "lolatency" nil "n=user@z65-50-0-4.ips.direcpath.com")
(3472551468 :privmsg "lisppaste" "Harag pasted \"The value \"LOAD-OP\" is not of type SYMBOL.\" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93438" nil)
(3472551522 :privmsg "jdz" "\"LOAD-OP\" is a string, not a symbol" nil)
(3472551539 :quit "HET2" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3472551559 :privmsg "Adlai" "Harag, it looks as though Cusp is calling (asdf:oos \"LOAD-OP\" 'somesystem)" nil)
(3472551588 :privmsg "Harag" "yes" nil)
(3472551591 :privmsg "Adlai" "nowadays, you can just call asdf:load-system" nil)
(3472551594 :action "p_l" "ponders why it can't just use asdf:load stuff" nil)
(3472551616 :privmsg "Adlai" "p_l, I think asdf:load-system is (relatively) recent" nil)
(3472551736 :join "Athas" nil "n=athas@192.38.109.188")
(3472551759 :privmsg "lukego" "any know a way to make one Debian machine install all the packages that another one has installed? (I want to install every program that might be useful now while I'm on a fast connection)" nil)
(3472551788 :privmsg "Krystof" "dpkg --get-selections" nil)
(3472551797 :privmsg "Krystof" "pipe to dpkg --set-selections" nil)
(3472551800 :privmsg "Krystof" "approximately" nil)
(3472551813 :privmsg "Harag" "well I dont think any body has looked at the cusp code that does this in ages ... so something else must have changed" nil)
(3472551848 :privmsg "Adlai" "Harag, I'm guessing that it used to use asdf:oos on a string, and that functionality became obsolete." nil)
(3472551856 :action "Adlai" "is just guessing, though" nil)
(3472551885 :privmsg "Xach" "I don't think that ever would have worked." nil)
(3472551917 :privmsg "tcr" "the error comes from swank-asdf.lisp" nil)
(3472551918 :privmsg "minion" "tcr, memo from fe[nl]ix: try sending a message to the B-T list" nil)
(3472551947 :action "Krystof" "wonders if anyone is going to say \"it's not how ccl implements closures that we were all weeping about; it's the raw hexadecimal in the routine that does it\"" nil)
(3472552024 :privmsg "Harag" "k thanx ...I will investigate" nil)
(3472552028 :privmsg "tcr" "Harag: Swank-asdf.lisp was updated not to use string literals because of allegro's modern mode" nil)
(3472552071 :privmsg "tcr" "you have to replace those string literals by \":load-op\"" nil)
(3472552081 :privmsg "Harag" "tcr: thanx" nil)
(3472552095 :privmsg "tcr" "and send a patch to Jasko" nil)
(3472552157 :action "tcr" "wants M-. work on declarations" nil)
(3472552161 :privmsg "Harag" "i am using ecusp but will send to both" nil)
(3472552241 :privmsg "tcr" "So I changed handler-bind to be based on a maybe-inlined function call-with-handlers so it shows up in backtraces. Is that stupid for some reason?" nil)
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(3472554371 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "how can one inject a set of characters before each new line when formatting an unknown format text with format arguments?" nil)
(3472554412 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "I would like to avoid parsing the format control" nil)
(3472554477 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "in fact I have (apply 'format s c args) where c might contain ~%" nil)
(3472554492 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "and I'd like to indent the output in s according to the current line-column" nil)
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(3472554737 :privmsg "pjb" "levente_meszaros: you can use ~? in s." nil)
(3472554810 :join "rrice" nil "n=rrice@76.244.145.54")
(3472554843 :privmsg "pjb" "levente_meszaros: but for indenting, I don't know any other way than splitting the text..." nil)
(3472554846 :privmsg "jdz" "levente_meszaros: or pprint-logical-block?" nil)
(3472554856 :quit "opt9`" "Remote closed the connection" "n=user@59.7.206.87")
(3472554859 :privmsg "jdz" "i have not used the pretty printer i must admit" nil)
(3472554876 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "p-l-b works with :per-line-prefix \"\"" nil)
(3472554877 :quit "ineiros" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi")
(3472554888 :join "TDT" nil "n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu")
(3472554920 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "I'm not sure how slow that is" nil)
(3472555157 :privmsg "tcr" "you specify per-line-prefix also with format, I think" nil)
(3472555160 :privmsg "tcr" "+can" nil)
(3472555200 :privmsg "tcr" "something like making the first ~; a ~@; out of my head" nil)
(3472555207 :join "HET2" nil "n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3472555260 :join "knobo``" nil "n=user@90.149.4.182")
(3472555366 :join "lukego" nil "n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-226-236.adslplus.ch")
(3472555417 :join "LiamH" nil "n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil")
(3472555555 :quit "Phoodus" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net")
(3472555614 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "(progn (format t \"FOO\") (format t \"~@<BAR~% BAZ~@:>\"))" nil)
(3472555620 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "almost works, except it doesnát" nil)
(3472555645 :join "carlocci" nil "n=nes@93.37.212.221")
(3472555681 :quit "FufieToo" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com")
(3472555739 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "looks better (progn (format t \"FOO\") (format t \"~@<~@;BAR~%BAZ~@:>\"))" nil)
(3472555811 :privmsg "TDT" "heh I gotta learn more about advanced ways of using format." nil)
(3472555824 :privmsg "TDT" "I have the general use down, but there's a lot I haven't done yet with it." nil)
(3472555830 :join "ineiros" nil "n=itniemin@dsl-hkibrasgw1-fe27f900-103.dhcp.inet.fi")
(3472556000 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "I must admit that after 3 years CL I did not get used to format" nil)
(3472556024 :privmsg "levente_meszaros" "I dislike its crypticness" nil)
(3472556052 :privmsg "Xach" "http://www.flickr.com/photos/xach/3384856473/" nil)
(3472556072 :privmsg "Xach" "(that is in response to a lightning talker who said \"Macros can sense your fear and they will FUCK YOU UP!\")" nil)
(3472556090 :privmsg "tcr" "what was that talk about?" nil)
(3472556096 :privmsg "Xach" "macros." nil)
(3472556108 :privmsg "Xach" "the history of them, not lisp-specific" nil)
(3472556118 :privmsg "Xach" "it was a great lightning talk" nil)
(3472556129 :quit "knobo`" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=user@90.149.4.182")
(3472556147 :privmsg "Xach" "\"Michael Greenberg's talk on the TRAC macro language\" is what i have in my notes, actually" nil)
(3472556436 :quit "Axius" "\"Leaving\"" "n=oijhif@109.97.40.228")
(3472556574 :join "Soulman__" nil "n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com")
(3472556626 :quit "somecodehere" "Remote closed the connection" "n=ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee")
(3472556775 :join "FufieToo" nil "n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com")
(3472556844 :join "jmckitrick" nil "n=user@adsl-176-73-108.asm.bellsouth.net")
(3472556845 :join "felideon" nil "n=user@12.228.15.162")
(3472556853 :part "felideon" nil "n=user@12.228.15.162")
(3472556993 :join "HET3" nil "n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3472557036 :join "knobo```" nil "n=user@90.149.4.182")
(3472557043 :join "jleija" nil "n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net")
(3472557077 :privmsg "jmckitrick" "When does it make sense to use '#' to not intern a symbol?" nil)
(3472557080 :quit "ikki" "Read error: 113 (No route to host)" "n=ikki@201.155.75.146")
(3472557158 :join "milanj" nil "n=milan@79.101.204.29")
(3472557215 :privmsg "tcr" "You mean #:foo?" nil)
(3472557228 :privmsg "jmckitrick" "Exactly." nil)
(3472557257 :privmsg "Xach" "jmckitrick: when you're using a symbol primarily for its name" nil)
(3472557258 :quit "ace4016" "\"night\"" "i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com")
(3472557261 :quit "timor" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=martin@w4607.dip.tu-dresden.de")
(3472557269 :privmsg "Xach" "jmckitrick: like in defpackage, in-package, defsystem, etc." nil)
(3472557312 :privmsg "jmckitrick" "That's pretty much where I'm using it.  When it's just the name you care about, and not binding a value to it, correct?" nil)
(3472557341 :privmsg "Xach" "the name as a string, yeah." nil)
(3472557394 :join "setheus" nil "n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com")
(3472557398 :quit "HET2" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3472557400 :privmsg "jmckitrick" "As a string, as opposed to... what else?" nil)
(3472557436 :privmsg "Xach" "Does it have to be in opposition to something?" nil)
(3472557456 :quit "Eleanore" nil "n=el@h246n1.lunet.ias.bredband.telia.com")
(3472557458 :privmsg "jmckitrick" "No, not really." nil)
(3472557469 :privmsg "jmckitrick" "Just helps to clarify understand, I guess." nil)
(3472557550 :join "wgl" nil "n=wgl@216.145.227.9")
(3472557663 :privmsg "Adlai" "jmckitrick, some other common uses for symbols are to name lexical variables, or to designate an object in a namespace, such as a function or a class. These uses all depend on symbol identity, rather than symbol names." nil)
(3472557755 :privmsg "jmckitrick" "Ah, right.  So using '#' always evaluates to a unique string, which does not have to be interned if it's only used for it's uniqueness, right?" nil)
(3472557804 :privmsg "Xach" "jmckitrick: no." nil)
(3472557823 :privmsg "Adlai" "(read#:foo" nil)
(3472557824 :privmsg "Xach" "jmckitrick: First, the important part of the syntax is #:" nil)
(3472557825 :privmsg "Adlai" "blargh" nil)
(3472557852 :privmsg "Adlai" "(read-from-string \"#:foo\") returns a symbol which is not interned in any package, and is named \"FOO\"" nil)
(3472557853 :privmsg "Xach" "jmckitrick: Second, it is not used for its uniqueness, it's used for the string that is its name." nil)
(3472557864 :privmsg "Xach" "Adlai: probably named \"FOO\"." nil)
(3472557884 :privmsg "Xach" "Using #:foo can be a concession to the situation where it is named \"foo\"" nil)
(3472557900 :privmsg "Xach" "if you used a string directly, you might get screwed up in that situation." nil)
(3472557928 :privmsg "Adlai" "Xach, didn't I say named \"FOO\"?" nil)
(3472557934 :quit "knobo``" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=user@90.149.4.182")
(3472557944 :quit "ThomasI" "\"Bye Bye!\"" "n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi")
(3472558022 :privmsg "Adlai" "jmckitrick, when a symbol gets interned in a package, it can't get garbage collected unless you unintern it (or delete the package). If you use a symbol in a situation where you just need the name, but symbol identity doesn't matter, using an uninterned symbol is better because it can get GCed later." nil)
(3472558024 :privmsg "jmckitrick" "I used to use package names as all-caps strings, then keywords, now I used the '#' because that's the one I see most often." nil)
(3472558038 :quit "jdz" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=jdz@85.254.211.133")
(3472558042 :privmsg "Adlai" "(and doesn't clutter up the keyword package, or whichever package is current)" nil)
(3472558078 :privmsg "Xach" "Adlai: You did. That is not necessarily true (which is why I said \"probably\")" nil)
(3472558100 :join "dlowe" nil "n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net")
(3472558102 :privmsg "jmckitrick" "So since #:foo is always interned as \"FOO\" even if it is GCed it will still always be the same string." nil)
(3472558111 :privmsg "Adlai" "right, there's always (readtable-case *readtable*)" nil)
(3472558152 :privmsg "Adlai" "jmckitrick, #:foo isn't interned anywhere" nil)
(3472558157 :privmsg "tcr" "jmckitrick: Is your question regarding the syntax, that is literal uninterned symbols, or the general concept of uninterned symbols?" nil)
(3472558197 :privmsg "jmckitrick" "tcr: The general concept." nil)
(3472558228 :privmsg "tcr" "Adlai: In ABCL, uninterned symbols are kind of interned :-)" nil)
(3472558268 :privmsg "tcr" "jmckitrick: Uninterned symbols are most often used for their uniqueness to prevent the name capture problem of macros" nil)
(3472558316 :privmsg "Adlai" "tcr, my experience with ABCL begins and ends with being unable to compile it or find a precompiled binary" nil)
(3472558350 :privmsg "tcr" "Adlai: It's not conformant what it does :-)" nil)
(3472558381 :privmsg "Adlai" "tcr, where does it intern them?" nil)
(3472558381 :privmsg "jmckitrick" "I've been experimenting with stuff like #1# and #1=" nil)
(3472558391 :privmsg "tcr" "Adlai: http://trac.common-lisp.net/armedbear/ticket/79" nil)
(3472558402 :privmsg "jmckitrick" "Adlai: Ha, I just finished building 0.18.0 from source, no binary found." nil)
(3472558482 :privmsg "jmckitrick" "tcr: I guess I'm trying to understand how if a package name is not from the DEFPACKAGE form, it's then able to be found later in the IN-PACKAGE form." nil)
(3472558498 :privmsg "Adlai" "tcr, wouldn't a quick fix be to create a new package for each uninterned symbol?" nil)
(3472558501 :privmsg "tcr" "jmckitrick: packages are named by strings not by symbols" nil)
(3472558509 :privmsg "Adlai" "rather than a new package per file" nil)
(3472558533 :privmsg "tcr" "Adlai: loading is slow already" nil)
(3472558555 :privmsg "Adlai" "it seems like ABCL still has many issues :\\" nil)
(3472558556 :privmsg "jmckitrick" "tcr: Ah.  And the #: syntax is easier than using all-caps strings?" nil)
(3472558586 :privmsg "tcr" "jmckitrick: a symbol with textual representation foo in a source file, does not necessarily become interned with a name \"FOO\"" nil)
(3472558587 :privmsg "Xach" "jmckitrick: it also doesn't break when the symbol-name of #:foo turns out not to be \"FOO\"" nil)
(3472558595 :privmsg "Adlai" "jmckitrick, using all-caps strings breaks if (readtable-case *readtable*) isn't :uppercase" nil)
(3472558608 :privmsg "Adlai" "eh, :upcase" nil)
(3472558611 :quit "stoop" "Remote closed the connection" "n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop")
(3472558679 :join "retroj" nil "n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj")
(3472558858 :action "froydnj" "takes some comfort in seeing that ccl has 512GB mapped on his x86-64 box" nil)
(3472558872 :privmsg "froydnj" "sbcl's 8GB looks paltry by comparison!" nil)
(3472558887 :quit "knobo```" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=user@90.149.4.182")
(3472558887 :privmsg "clop" "ccl kicks some serious ass for high-memory machines" nil)
(3472558900 :privmsg "Adlai" "froydnj, it doesn't actually -use- most of that... runs just fine when I tell it to only reserve 1GB" nil)
(3472558916 :privmsg "froydnj" "Adlai: oh, sure, I know that" nil)
(3472558933 :privmsg "Adlai" "it freaked me out before I knew the difference between virt and res, though" nil)
(3472558948 :privmsg "Xach" "froydnj: time for ironclad-rainbow-tables!" nil)
(3472558955 :privmsg "p_l" "Adlai: on linux it acts though as if it actually allocated 512G" nil)
(3472558963 :quit "FufieToo" "\"Leaving\"" "n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com")
(3472559019 :privmsg "froydnj" "Xach: indeed" nil)
(3472559042 :privmsg "Krystof" "yeah, where's my ironclad-gsm-encryption-crack class?" nil)
(3472559052 :privmsg "froydnj" "though I wouldn't want to do it in ccl until I figure out how to write LAP for some hashs and crypto algorithms" nil)
(3472559063 :action "p_l" "was only dabbling with ironclad-skein-hash" nil)
(3472559091 :privmsg "froydnj" "Krystof: MORE CONTRIBUTED ALGORITHMS" nil)
(3472559111 :privmsg "Krystof" "froydnj: do you have any elliptic-curve stuff?" nil)
(3472559129 :privmsg "Krystof" "I have been reading number theory books on the trains" nil)
(3472559135 :privmsg "froydnj" "Krystof: no.  those would be most welcome" nil)
(3472559167 :privmsg "jmckitrick" "thanks guys, back to work..." nil)
(3472559170 :quit "jmckitrick" "\"ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)\"" "n=user@adsl-176-73-108.asm.bellsouth.net")
(3472559178 :action "p_l" "would just like to achieve similar performance with a Skein hash in CL as was claimed by its creators, then he could blag that CL is *FAST* ;-)" nil)
(3472559219 :privmsg "Krystof" "froydnj: also, have you felt the need for different bignum multipliers?" nil)
(3472559241 :privmsg "Krystof" "for really huge numbers" nil)
(3472559260 :privmsg "froydnj" "Krystof: no.  but then again, I haven't really done much with really huge numbers" nil)
(3472559274 :join "ikki" nil "n=ikki@201.155.75.146")
(3472559324 :privmsg "Krystof" "the other thing I want is something that can wrap ironclad a bit like edi's regex-coach wrapped cl-ppcre" nil)
(3472559343 :privmsg "Krystof" "so that I can do pretty guis which explain what's happening, to use as a teaching aid for computer security students" nil)
(3472559476 :quit "ikki" "Client Quit" "n=ikki@201.155.75.146")
(3472559520 :privmsg "splittist" "Krystof really wants the huuuuuge numbers for his Wigflip cut accounting" nil)
(3472559641 :join "ikki" nil "n=ikki@201.155.75.146")
(3472559653 :quit "ASau`" "\"off\"" "n=user@77.246.231.4")
(3472559733 :privmsg "Krystof" "I have to be able to subtract at least one meeeeeleeon dollars, yes" nil)
(3472559776 :privmsg "Xach" "You missed my scheme to go into the superpremium book printing business, avoiding a Xof tax." nil)
(3472559806 :privmsg "Xach" "gilt-edged, leather bound CL standards" nil)
(3472559819 :privmsg "Krystof" "ah yes" nil)
(3472559831 :privmsg "Krystof" "you should be able to get a good profit margin on that" nil)
(3472559834 :privmsg "p_l" "... lol" nil)
(3472559835 :privmsg "froydnj" "\"This language is dead sexy\"?" nil)
(3472559868 :privmsg "clop" "minus the sexy?" nil)
(3472559876 :privmsg "clop" ":D" nil)
(3472559902 :quit "Odin-" nil "n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is")
(3472559909 :privmsg "p_l" "clop: more like \"It's too sexy for life\"" nil)
(3472559915 :quit "balooga" "\"Leaving.\"" "n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-151.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net")
(3472559925 :quit "l_a_m" "\"Lost terminal\"" "n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190")
(3472560032 :privmsg "splittist" "surely there is some valley in Pakistan with 5 year olds just dieing to hand-stich draft ANSI CL specs..." nil)
(3472560045 :quit "sepult" "\"ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)\"" "n=levgue@xdsl-87-79-119-35.netcologne.de")
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(3472560276 :quit "varjag" "\"Ex-Chat\"" "n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no")
(3472560311 :join "sepult" nil "n=levgue@xdsl-87-79-119-35.netcologne.de")
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(3472561061 :quit "billitch" nil "n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net")
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(3472561149 :quit "attila_lendvai" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=ati@apn-89-223-196-196.vodafone.hu")
(3472561280 :quit "b4|hraban" "\"Leaving\"" "n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl")
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(3472630531 :rpl_topicwhotime "verne.freenode.net" "Krystof" 3472401855)
(3472630531 :names "verne.freenode.net" "ccl-logbot Kolyan Beetny Joreji_ HET2 billitch pavelludiq potatishandlarn Zephyrus grouzen addled lypanov kejsaren borisc simplechat emma daniel_ freiksenet xinming Reaver1 Athas kwinz3 Edico Krystof s0ber dnm_ dys fractalis prxq milanj spradnyesh jtza8 tcr Foofie mrSpec koning_r1bot fiveop ace4016 lpolzer__ Ralith TJohn benny c|mell wakeup^ coyo pjb Sergio` chiiph konr` saikatc legumbre_ AntiSpamMeta kuwabara2 lemoinem fihi09 pkhuong mornfall " nil)
(3472630531 :names "verne.freenode.net" "jsnell_ stepnem Soulmann ve hdurer specbot bipt G0SUB sellout wgl @slyrus REPLeffect_ Ginei_Morioka sjbach xenosoz2 djinni` uouou Guest955` _3b minion joshe _deepfire Holcxjo lnostdal CrazyEddy redline6561 Khisanth spn dto dmiles Taggnostr mtd PissedNumlock OmniMancer foom z0d TR2N zbigniew Ri-|away lukjad007 rsynnott_ Trystam fgtech rdd KatrinaTheLamia schme skeptomai|awa- drwhat emouse ASau drwho foom2 bdowning eno kleppari tarbo svaksha0 " nil)
(3472630531 :names "verne.freenode.net" "yahooooo dostoyev1ky addled1 ceineke_ dmm_ dfox_ hicx174_ Dodek cataska cobol000 derrida thijso fe[nl]ix kingdon Borbus bakkdoor codemonkeyx aking johs rapacity ``Erik rlonstein guenthr pok Zhivago guaqua peddie joga ironChicken joast ecraven tic froydnj rbancroft erg aja mle tvaalen sykopomp mikezor ud jyujin Orest^bnc prip Intensity jamesstanley Wraithan nasloc__ hypno Raptelan Xantoz Axioplase_ lusory Aisling sleepydog Stattrav koollman " nil)
(3472630531 :names "verne.freenode.net" "jrockway Ober ianmcorvidae blackened` UnwashedMeme slather frontiers wlr cmatei stassats Jasko2 setheus herbieB cupe rullie GrayGnome hohum kpreid BunzOfSteel hoeq__ danderso1 ajklfjadsf whoppix p_l housel Nshag Guest44084 weirdo_ DrForr tychoish nullman Patzy ramus j0ni guaq Buganini dym yacin boyscared nowhereman Phoodus tmh xan-afk Dra`vi Pepe_ plutonas drewc egn nicktastic claudia20100115 l_a_m ineiros Adrinael madnificent moesenle ragnul " nil)
(3472630531 :names "verne.freenode.net" "Carnegie frodef easyE derefed anekos kencausey gz rey_ cods djm defn cpt_nemo felipe tltstc dalkvist fnordus alexbobp rootzlevel chii ivan4th Yamazaki-kun blast_hardcheese nuba re-l retupmoca sytse _3b` smithzv swilde antifuchs srcerer keltor Demosthenes Madsy spoofy bfein clop dcrawford Helheim cmeow raison lisppaste spacebat Tordek arbscht Spaghettini peterwang antoszka phadthai qeb`away ski bill` newfurniturey skeptical_p PuffTheMagic BrianRice " nil)
(3472630531 :names "verne.freenode.net" "Xach Fade EwS lupine_85 rotty_ clog wasabi___ franki^ lharc Legoolas Xof luis scode krappie pragma_ " nil)
(3472630561 :quit "xinming" "Remote closed the connection" "n=hyy@125.109.76.217")
(3472630567 :privmsg "tcr" "Hm, so that location may be some fixup place for the gc?" nil)
(3472630682 :privmsg "_deepfire" "Ok, my initial guess was idiotic, I see." nil)
(3472630708 :privmsg "p_l" "tcr: judging by addresses, it's some very close to code location, that contains apriopriate data prepared by compiler" nil)
(3472630789 :privmsg "_deepfire" "Actually, it's not necessary idiotic." nil)
(3472630801 :quit "djinni`" "Client Quit" "n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com")
(3472630807 :privmsg "tcr" "p_l: hoh that makes perfect sense, because you see :bar as a constant in the code-component if you inspect the function :-)" nil)
(3472630811 :join "djinni`" nil "n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com")
(3472631040 :join "spilman" nil "n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-29-106.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr")
(3472631068 :privmsg "lisppaste" "p_l pasted \"(disassemble '(lambda (x) (eq x :bar)))\" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93485" nil)
(3472631147 :privmsg "p_l" "I think it answers it nicely when you look at the whole function, don't you think? :)" nil)
(3472631160 :join "xinming" nil "n=hyy@125.109.76.217")
(3472631181 :quit "xinming" "Broken pipe" "n=hyy@125.109.76.217")
(3472631188 :join "xinming" nil "n=hyy@125.109.76.217")
(3472631248 :privmsg "tcr" "did you proclaim some optimization settings?" nil)
(3472631265 :privmsg "p_l" "nope, those are default settings in clbuild-built SBCL on x86-64" nil)
(3472631293 :privmsg "tcr" "that seems an aweful lot of code" nil)
(3472631370 :quit "billitch" "Read error: 113 (No route to host)" "n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net")
(3472631373 :privmsg "nowhereman" "for some months now, SLIME's selector REPL key has gotten me to the bare REPL (SBCL), not SLIME's REPL" nil)
(3472631383 :privmsg "nowhereman" "would anyone know how I can change that" nil)
(3472631402 :privmsg "p_l" "tcr: most of it is prologues and epilogues of function" nil)
(3472631420 :privmsg "p_l" "no wonder GHC strips them ;-)" nil)
(3472631445 :privmsg "tcr" "nowhereman: do you use the slime-repl contrib?" nil)
(3472631518 :quit "prxq" "\"Leaving\"" "n=mommer@g226134045.adsl.alicedsl.de")
(3472631532 :join "prxq" nil "n=mommer@g226134045.adsl.alicedsl.de")
(3472631539 :quit "addled" "Remote closed the connection" "n=adl@77.208.113.137")
(3472631677 :privmsg "prxq" "nowhereman: what do you have in (slime-setup '(<here>))?" nil)
(3472631783 :quit "jtza8" "\"Lost terminal\"" "n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-117-62.wbs.co.za")
(3472631961 :privmsg "nowhereman" "prxq: '(inferior-slime slime-autodoc slime-banner slime-xref-browser slime-references slime-presentations slime-presentation-streams slime-fancy-inspector)" nil)
(3472632004 :privmsg "tcr" "Replace inferior-slime with slime-repl" nil)
(3472632324 :join "sadiquea" nil "n=sadiquea@122.172.7.83")
(3472632413 :join "guille_" nil "n=user@247.Red-81-35-175.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net")
(3472632419 :join "abeaumont" nil "n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250")
(3472632568 :privmsg "nowhereman" "great, thanks" nil)
(3472632662 :quit "Joreji_" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=thomas@134.61.80.139")
(3472632835 :quit "djinni`" "Client Quit" "n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com")
(3472632839 :join "Joreji" nil "n=thomas@134.61.80.139")
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(3472632858 :quit "dto" "Read error: 113 (No route to host)" "n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net")
(3472633293 :privmsg "derrida" "how can i change the default repository location (~/.asdf-install-dir) for asdf" nil)
(3472633357 :privmsg "p_l" "derrida: asdf:*central-repository*" nil)
(3472633395 :privmsg "derrida" "ah yes :)" nil)
(3472633399 :privmsg "derrida" "p_l: thank you" nil)
(3472633753 :privmsg "derrida" "is it an indication that something is wrong if i need to start ccl from my ~/ as $PWD for asdf to be able to find things?" nil)
(3472633770 :privmsg "derrida" "i didn't use relative paths in my .ccl-init.lisp" nil)
(3472633774 :privmsg "p_l" "derrida: possibly" nil)
(3472633788 :privmsg "p_l" "minion: lisppaste" nil)
(3472633789 :privmsg "lisppaste" "To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste." nil)
(3472633794 :privmsg "p_l" "paste your ccl init:)" nil)
(3472633798 :privmsg "derrida" "k" nil)
(3472633808 :join "cobol000_" nil "n=r4y@p5496D17F.dip.t-dialin.net")
(3472633826 :privmsg "stassats" "derrida: asdf:*central-repository* should contain forms for evaluation, perhaps, you put there already evaluated paths" nil)
(3472633855 :privmsg "stassats" "asdf:*central-registry*" nil)
(3472633860 :privmsg "derrida" " http://sprunge.us/Tfbh" nil)
(3472633867 :privmsg "stassats" "p_l confused us all" nil)
(3472633886 :privmsg "derrida" "hehe" nil)
(3472633892 :privmsg "stassats" "derrida: ccl doesn't understand \"~\"" nil)
(3472633901 :privmsg "derrida" "omg" nil)
(3472633906 :privmsg "derrida" "your right the relative paths are back!" nil)
(3472633909 :privmsg "derrida" "so embarassing" nil)
(3472633924 :privmsg "tcr" "common pitfall" nil)
(3472633929 :join "unicode_" nil "n=user@95.214.60.65")
(3472633980 :privmsg "stassats" "(pushnew '(merge-pathnames \".asdf-install-dir/systems/\" (user-homedir-pathname)) registry :test #'equal)" nil)
(3472634089 :join "rajeshsr" nil "n=rajeshsr@59.92.69.187")
(3472634093 :privmsg "Xach" "ccl doesn't understand ~?" nil)
(3472634097 :action "Xach" "smells some hacking to be done" nil)
(3472634128 :privmsg "p_l" "derrida: if you want tilde to work, install package tilde :)" nil)
(3472634143 :privmsg "stassats" "only clisp understands them out of the box" nil)
(3472634144 :privmsg "derrida" "stassats: it doesn't like registry" nil)
(3472634169 :privmsg "stassats" "derrida: i was lazy to type asdf:*central-registry*" nil)
(3472634171 :privmsg "derrida" "should that be asdf:*central-registry*" nil)
(3472634172 :privmsg "derrida" "oh" nil)
(3472634174 :privmsg "derrida" "sorry" nil)
(3472634181 :privmsg "derrida" "i'm half braindead :>" nil)
(3472634203 :privmsg "Xach" "stassats: untrue" nil)
(3472634212 :privmsg "Xach" "stassats: lispworks at least does, and i think acl too." nil)
(3472634226 :privmsg "_deepfire" "http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter4.4.html#Pathanmes:" nil)
(3472634239 :privmsg "derrida" "hm, i actually get the same error message" nil)
(3472634242 :privmsg "_deepfire" "'\"~user/...\" can be used to refer to an absolute pathname rooted at the home directory of the user named \"user\".'" nil)
(3472634245 :privmsg "Xach" "stassats: ecl too" nil)
(3472634273 :join "somecodehere" nil "n=ingvar@75.186.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee")
(3472634373 :privmsg "stassats" "Xach: making false statement occurred to be easier than testing it" nil)
(3472634402 :privmsg "tcr" "story of humanity :-)" nil)
(3472634418 :join "mgr" nil "n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de")
(3472634439 :action "Xach" "has a special place for ~ in his heart, and cl pathnames" nil)
(3472634458 :privmsg "_deepfire" "Well, we can't recheck everything, we have use judgement-based fact caching." nil)
(3472634469 :privmsg "_deepfire" "Well, we can't recheck everything, we have to use judgement-based fact caching." nil)
(3472634470 :action "stassats" "has a special place for ~ and cl format" nil)
(3472634481 :quit "cobol000" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=r4y@p5496C71D.dip.t-dialin.net")
(3472634516 :privmsg "_deepfire" "Our productivity would grind to a halt if we were to cease using our memory." nil)
(3472634587 :privmsg "derrida" "I'm getting 404 errors from asdf for cl-opengl and lispbuilder-sdl" nil)
(3472634599 :privmsg "stassats" "from asdf-install" nil)
(3472634607 :privmsg "Xach" "derrida: they are perhaps not signed" nil)
(3472634610 :privmsg "derrida" "asdf-install rather, is there anything i should do?" nil)
(3472634621 :privmsg "Xach" "derrida: skip gpg check is one option" nil)
(3472634626 :privmsg "derrida" "I think these are real 404s actually" nil)
(3472634636 :privmsg "stassats" "using clbuild is another option" nil)
(3472634637 :join "b4|hraban" nil "n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl")
(3472634651 :privmsg "derrida" "> While executing: ASDF-INSTALL::DOWNLOAD-URL-TO-FILE" nil)
(3472634687 :privmsg "_deepfire" "derrida, do you feel like testing a bleeding-edge software delivery technology?" nil)
(3472634695 :privmsg "derrida" "yes" nil)
(3472634701 :privmsg "derrida" ":>" nil)
(3472634729 :privmsg "_deepfire" "Then wget http://www.feelingofgreen.ru/shared/src/desire/climb.sh" nil)
(3472634770 :privmsg "_deepfire" "and then 'sh climb.sh -m cl-opengl ~/desr'" nil)
(3472634770 :privmsg "stassats" "i thought it will deliver bleeding-edge software" nil)
(3472634832 :join "oconnore_" nil "n=oconnore@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net")
(3472634869 :privmsg "_deepfire" "derrida, oh, you need to have git installed" nil)
(3472634922 :privmsg "_deepfire" "And if you're not on linux/sbcl, sorry for distracting you, my solution is not working." nil)
(3472634922 :privmsg "derrida" "it's working :>" nil)
(3472634922 :privmsg "derrida" "done!" nil)
(3472634942 :privmsg "derrida" "should the script leave me inside of sbcl?" nil)
(3472634957 :privmsg "_deepfire" "yes" nil)
(3472634982 :privmsg "_deepfire" "derrida, you may want to read http://www.feelingofgreen.ru/shared/src/desire/doc/tutorial.html" nil)
(3472635002 :privmsg "derrida" "cool i will thanks" nil)
(3472635046 :privmsg "tcr" "How do test suites deal with errors in threads spawned in the test case?" nil)
(3472635087 :privmsg "_deepfire" "derrida, in that repl you can enter things like (lust :lispbuilder-sdl) to get more stuff" nil)
(3472635108 :privmsg "_deepfire" "derrida, and (apropos-desr 'clim) to query things in an apropos-like manner." nil)
(3472635112 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Presu mably they are equipped to handle a little indeterminacy." nil)
(3472635190 :privmsg "tcr" "If sbcl supported a default-specials variable, you could bind *debugger-hook* in there, I guess" nil)
(3472635227 :privmsg "_deepfire" "derrida, note that you may need to use (loadsys :foo) instead of (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'foo), because of the undeclared dependencies mess.." nil)
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(3472635997 :quit "unicode_" "\"leaving\"" "n=user@95.214.60.65")
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(3472637484 :join "freiksenet" nil "n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi")
(3472637546 :quit "HET2" "\"This computer has gone to sleep\"" "n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3472637588 :privmsg "_deepfire" "Does anybody know how to obtain the backtrace on CCL in a printed form?" nil)
(3472637621 :quit "legumbre_" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=leo@r190-135-23-62.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy")
(3472637641 :join "HET2" nil "n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3472637690 :privmsg "tcr" "consult its swank backend?" nil)
(3472637724 :quit "abeaumont" "Remote closed the connection" "n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250")
(3472637752 :privmsg "_deepfire" "tcr, I doubted swank needs an unstructured backtrace.." nil)
(3472637768 :privmsg "_deepfire" "tcr, I know about CCL::BACKTRACE-AS-LIST" nil)
(3472637772 :privmsg "tcr" "Oh it doesn't, but M-. is your friend :-)" nil)
(3472637793 :privmsg "tcr" "there's a swank-backend:print-frame" nil)
(3472637796 :quit "ASau" "Remote closed the connection" "n=user@83.69.227.32")
(3472637814 :privmsg "_deepfire" "tcr, I'm still in a shotgun-porting mode, no slime attached to CCL yet :-)" nil)
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(3472637907 :quit "xan-afk" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi")
(3472637920 :privmsg "tcr" "(pprint-linear t (backtrace-as-list)) perhaps?" nil)
(3472638024 :privmsg "_deepfire" "Well, I was aiming at sb-debug:backtrace level of prettiness.." nil)
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(3472643256 :privmsg "plage" "Good evening!" nil)
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(3472643385 :privmsg "Adlai" "good evening, plage" nil)
(3472643437 :privmsg "Adlai" "how is your lecture series going?" nil)
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(3472643564 :privmsg "plage" "Adlai: I finished everything.  Now I am on the airport waiting to board." nil)
(3472643590 :privmsg "plage" "Adlai: My 2 Lisp seminars went quite well with more people than I expected coming to listen." nil)
(3472643628 :quit "konr`" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=user@189.96.192.134")
(3472643629 :privmsg "Adlai" "ah, good to hear. Have a safe trip!" nil)
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(3472643639 :privmsg "plage" "Adlai: Thanks!" nil)
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(3472644671 :privmsg "plage" "Strange place this.  At the airport, there are Wifi networks that require a password, but the password is the same as the name of the network (which was the first thing I tried)." nil)
(3472644972 :privmsg "p_l" "plage: the one at Charles De Gaulle Airport has broken access controls - I managed to access google without logging in, assuming I used localized site (.pl) and Nokia MiniMap browser :D" nil)
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(3472645039 :privmsg "plage" "p_l: Good to know I suppose.  Last time, I paid for an hour, and never managed to access it :(" nil)
(3472645042 :join "Joreji_" nil "n=thomas@134.61.80.139")
(3472645108 :privmsg "plage" "Boarding seems to be starting.  Got to go.  See you in later." nil)
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(3472645126 :join "Hun" nil "n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de")
(3472645278 :privmsg "p_l" "see you" nil)
(3472645321 :quit "reprore" "Remote closed the connection" "n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp")
(3472645324 :quit "guille_" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=user@247.Red-81-35-175.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net")
(3472645346 :join "carlocci" nil "n=nes@93.37.211.93")
(3472645534 :quit "Phoodus" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net")
(3472645575 :join "reprore" nil "n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp")
(3472645657 :quit "Sergio`" "Remote closed the connection" "n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt")
(3472645694 :join "c|mell" nil "n=cmell@202.137.157.253")
(3472645782 :quit "Guthur" "\"Computer says no\"" "n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com")
(3472645813 :quit "Joreji" "Read error: 113 (No route to host)" "n=thomas@134.61.80.139")
(3472645893 :quit "simplechat" "\"Leaving\"" "n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat")
(3472645903 :nick "guille_`" "guille_" "n=user@247.Red-81-35-175.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net")
(3472646027 :quit "sellout" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net")
(3472646041 :nick "Trystam" "Tristam" "n=Tristam@cpe-72-226-127-57.nycap.res.rr.com")
(3472646072 :join "Edward_" nil "n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-25-223.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr")
(3472646235 :quit "plage" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=user@113.161.76.50")
(3472646262 :quit "lupine_85" "Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=quassel@unaffiliated/lupine-85/x-7392152")
(3472646341 :join "Ragnaroek" nil "n=chatzill@p54A632D0.dip.t-dialin.net")
(3472646390 :join "HET2" nil "n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3472646576 :join "Davidbrcz" nil "n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr")
(3472646594 :join "rdd" nil "n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se")
(3472646854 :quit "syamajala" "\"Leaving...\"" "n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net")
(3472646920 :join "legumbre" nil "n=leo@r190-135-36-52.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy")
(3472646968 :join "parolang" nil "n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net")
(3472646995 :quit "Edward" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-32-223.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr")
(3472646996 :privmsg "tcr" "Does substructuring have any overhead on the layout?" nil)
(3472647030 :privmsg "tcr" "I mean I could easy just add a boolean slot instead of defining a new substructure" nil)
(3472647036 :privmsg "tcr" "easily" nil)
(3472647148 :quit "abeaumont" "Remote closed the connection" "n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250")
(3472647230 :privmsg "_deepfire" "Ok, port to CCL was mostly a breeze." nil)
(3472647263 :privmsg "_deepfire" "The client part, anyway." nil)
(3472647281 :quit "reprore" "Remote closed the connection" "n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp")
(3472647318 :join "reprore_" nil "n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp")
(3472647336 :privmsg "_deepfire" "I guess I'll take a stab at ECL and CLisp now." nil)
(3472647672 :join "kenanb" nil "n=kenanb@88.238.179.200")
(3472647699 :privmsg "_deepfire" "Does anybody know if CCL has timers?" nil)
(3472647723 :join "easyE" nil "i=[60h2hmy@panix3.panix.com")
(3472647744 :privmsg "_deepfire" "That is, asynchronous scheduling of functions." nil)
(3472647806 :privmsg "p_l" "as in \"happening at exact time\"?" nil)
(3472647857 :privmsg "_deepfire" "p_l, as in, \"fire this function x seconds later\"" nil)
(3472647897 :privmsg "prxq" "_deepfire: what are you porting?" nil)
(3472647898 :privmsg "_deepfire" "I grepped the source tree for \"timer\" and looked through the documentation to no avail." nil)
(3472647907 :privmsg "_deepfire" "prxq, desire" nil)
(3472647937 :privmsg "_deepfire" "Anyway, timers are non-essential, just nice to have." nil)
(3472647942 :privmsg "prxq" "i have a certain reluctance to google for it... :-) is that a game?" nil)
(3472647945 :quit "spradnyesh" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=pradyus@122.167.88.124")
(3472647970 :privmsg "_deepfire" "prxq, http://www.feelingofgreen.ru/shared/src/desire/doc/overview.html" nil)
(3472648024 :privmsg "_deepfire" "prxq, I don't know how to call it, actually, it's a soup of things which can act in several roles." nil)
(3472648085 :privmsg "_deepfire" "This reminds me, I need to link the tutorial from the main overview.." nil)
(3472648126 :privmsg "p_l" "_deepfire: can you deal with posix signals?" nil)
(3472648165 :privmsg "p_l" "If yes, I can gi ve you something that would deal with timers on posix systems" nil)
(3472648254 :privmsg "_deepfire" "p_l, you can throw it at me anyway -- I'm not sure what sort of dealership I may provide :-)" nil)
(3472648392 :join "Modius" nil "n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com")
(3472648463 :privmsg "p_l" "_deepfire: you'd need to catch SIGALARM and have the handler check current time and run functions that \"pass\" their schedule, and use CFFI to access alarm()" nil)
(3472648484 :quit "kwinz3" "Remote closed the connection" "n=kwinz@213162066157.public.t-mobile.at")
(3472648579 :privmsg "_deepfire" "p_l, I guess I'll pass then for now, I'm hoping to focus on essintial portability stuff.  Thanks anyway!" nil)
(3472648591 :privmsg "_deepfire" "*essential" nil)
(3472648595 :privmsg "prxq" "how is ccls supposed to be installed on a linux system? just copy the executable somewhere?" nil)
(3472648616 :privmsg "prxq" "_deepfire: thanks. that looks impressive" nil)
(3472648644 :privmsg "prxq" "i mean ccl" nil)
(3472648646 :privmsg "_deepfire" "prxq, I did it in two steps: 1. copy the ccl directory to /usr/local/src  and 2. copy ccl/scripts/ccl{,64} to somewhere in $PATH" nil)
(3472648692 :quit "abugosh" "\"Leaving.\"" "n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com")
(3472648693 :privmsg "prxq" "how do you tell it where the sources are?" nil)
(3472648717 :privmsg "_deepfire" "prxq, the ccl/scripts/ccl{,64} scripts default to /usr/local/src/ccl" nil)
(3472648729 :privmsg "prxq" "ok, thanks" nil)
(3472648767 :join "ehu" nil "i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-iylbvadiahbbmxlb")
(3472648802 :privmsg "ehu" "hi. I saw Sheeple. its project home page says \"CLOS-like\". What does that mean? Anybody here who knows?" nil)
(3472648868 :quit "retroj" "Remote closed the connection" "n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj")
(3472648903 :privmsg "_deepfire" "ehu, the #lisp contacts are sykopomp, Adlai and madnificent" nil)
(3472648917 :join "retroj" nil "n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj")
(3472649073 :privmsg "_deepfire" "maybe I'm wrong abuot madnificent" nil)
(3472649078 :privmsg "_deepfire" "*aobut" nil)
(3472649086 :privmsg "_deepfire" "heh" nil)
(3472649254 :join "pestario" nil "n=pestario@ool-43522f54.dyn.optonline.net")
(3472649349 :quit "rajeshsr" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=rajeshsr@59.92.69.187")
(3472649351 :privmsg "Modius" "Is there a lib function that identifies if a path represents a file or a directory?" nil)
(3472649355 :privmsg "sykopomp" "ehu: It's CLOS-like because: 1. it has the same generic function/method abstraction (separate from classes/objects)" nil)
(3472649404 :privmsg "sykopomp" "2. It has similar syntax for most of its functions/macros, and the library is named in a similar way, so it's fairly easy to guess what something does." nil)
(3472649439 :nick "rsynnott_" "rsynnott" "i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie")
(3472649444 :privmsg "sykopomp" "and I guess some other stuff, but that's the bulk of it. It used to sort ancestors the same way as CLOS does, but we use C3 to linearize now." nil)
(3472649532 :privmsg "prxq" "first thing and I crash ccl with a segfault" nil)
(3472649588 :privmsg "prxq" "so much for stable and so on" nil)
(3472649604 :privmsg "sykopomp" "you could consider it part of its commitment to stability." nil)
(3472649608 :privmsg "Xach" "prxq: was your first thing a call to (ccl::crash-with-segfault)?" nil)
(3472649631 :privmsg "p_l" "prxq: did you use release or HEAD?" nil)
(3472649642 :join "stassats`" nil "n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats")
(3472649667 :privmsg "prxq" "i used a release from svn and recompiled it" nil)
(3472649672 :privmsg "prxq" "Xach: almost, it seems" nil)
(3472649676 :privmsg "tcr" "prxq: Wasn't it a stable crash?" nil)
(3472649676 :privmsg "madnificent" "_deepfire: nope" nil)
(3472649679 :privmsg "madnificent" "_deepfire: we are not" nil)
(3472649688 :privmsg "_deepfire" "Modius, CL-FAD has an assorted set of related functions: PATHNAME-DIRECTORY-P, FILE-EXISTS-P and DIRECTORY-EXISTS-P" nil)
(3472649704 :quit "xenosoz2" "Remote closed the connection" "n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr")
(3472649731 :privmsg "madnificent" "ehu: oh wait no, I should've read the question of ehu first.  You should probably contact either sykopomp or Adlai.  You'll have more luck in #sykosomatic though" nil)
(3472649737 :join "xenosoz2" nil "n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr")
(3472649785 :privmsg "madnificent" "ehu: the CLOS-like part covers the naming of some methods and the way inheritance is handled.  The mop is also inspired on CLOS's MOP" nil)
(3472649822 :privmsg "_deepfire" "madnificent, only inspired, not implemented using it, largely? :-)" nil)
(3472649830 :privmsg "prxq" "i'm so utterly unimpressed" nil)
(3472649831 :privmsg "madnificent" "not anymore" nil)
(3472649848 :privmsg "_deepfire" "prxq, by what? CCL?" nil)
(3472649856 :privmsg "prxq" "yeah" nil)
(3472649868 :privmsg "prxq" "1s. I'll paste code" nil)
(3472649905 :privmsg "_deepfire" "prxq, the binary I downloaded went through bootstrapping desire/downloading some modules using it without a single crash.." nil)
(3472649964 :join "ruediger" nil "n=quassel@93-82-7-85.adsl.highway.telekom.at")
(3472650063 :privmsg "_deepfire" "Not that it means much.." nil)
(3472650079 :privmsg "lisppaste" "prxq pasted \"this crashes ccl\" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93491" nil)
(3472650090 :quit "freiksenet1" "Remote closed the connection" "n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi")
(3472650154 :quit "nowhereman" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net")
(3472650167 :privmsg "prxq" "on the box I am testing this there are actually 8 cores" nil)
(3472650287 :join "freiksenet" nil "n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi")
(3472650300 :privmsg "_deepfire" "prxq, survives on a single-core, eventually killing some processes" nil)
(3472650312 :privmsg "_deepfire" "and landing into the REPL" nil)
(3472650336 :part "pestario" nil "n=pestario@ool-43522f54.dyn.optonline.net")
(3472650392 :privmsg "prxq" "_deepfire: does it kill them all?" nil)
(3472650403 :privmsg "prxq" "i mean, the ones that are supposed to be killed" nil)
(3472650425 :privmsg "_deepfire" "prxq, it reliably kills seven of them" nil)
(3472650446 :privmsg "_deepfire" "So, all, yes." nil)
(3472650455 :privmsg "_deepfire" "Survives on a dual-core as well." nil)
(3472650478 :privmsg "_deepfire" "But it kills them after a seemingly random period of time -- 1-10 sec" nil)
(3472650493 :join "spilman" nil "n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-29-106.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr")
(3472650520 :privmsg "tcr" "prxq: What do you want to use multi-threading for?" nil)
(3472650563 :join "sellout" nil "n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net")
(3472650671 :quit "rdd" "Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se")
(3472650681 :quit "stassats" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats")
(3472650704 :join "rdd" nil "n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se")
(3472650744 :privmsg "_deepfire" "Nice, ECL's RUN-PROGRAM supports all essentials." nil)
(3472650764 :privmsg "prxq" "tcr: number crunching" nil)
(3472650845 :privmsg "_deepfire" "..except for environment." nil)
(3472650896 :privmsg "p_l" "_deepfire: if needed, you have fork()/execve()" nil)
(3472650920 :join "Guthur" nil "n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com")
(3472650966 :quit "mrSpec" nil "n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec")
(3472651050 :privmsg "_deepfire" "p_l, do you think that I need reminding that I do? :-)" nil)
(3472651063 :privmsg "tcr" "prxq: do you see my privmsgs?" nil)
(3472651067 :privmsg "_deepfire" "p_l, besides, it'd be easier to patch ECL than to reimplement that stuff." nil)
(3472651089 :privmsg "_deepfire" "Easier and more productive." nil)
(3472651325 :join "mrSpec" nil "n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec")
(3472651410 :privmsg "prxq" "tcr: yes" nil)
(3472651496 :privmsg "_3b" "is there something like gitk for darcs?" nil)
(3472651530 :join "Yuuhi" nil "i=benni@p5483D4A4.dip.t-dialin.net")
(3472651551 :quit "EwS" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=ews@c-76-102-249-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net")
(3472651732 :action "Xach" "prods antifuchs for details about logical host pain" nil)
(3472651873 :quit "_JFT_" nil "n=_JFT_@modemcable204.87-177-173.mc.videotron.ca")
(3472651956 :join "kwinz3" nil "n=kwinz@85.125.183.138")
(3472652016 :privmsg "tmh" "prxq: What version of CCL are you using? I have 1.2 on my machine." nil)
(3472652080 :privmsg "_3b" "hmm, did clbuild --implementation get broken at some point?" nil)
(3472652125 :privmsg "Krystof" "Xach: since I haven't got round to commenting -- logical hosts are not terrible in that they potentially allow for only one conditionalization for an installation of some software" nil)
(3472652153 :privmsg "_3b" "doesn't seem to like using a separate ccl, or starting it directly by filename" nil)
(3472652154 :privmsg "Krystof" "pain comes in trying to portably refer to files that don't fit the least-common-denominator assumption" nil)
(3472652193 :privmsg "tmh" "prxq: Just ran it on my machine, 8 cores, no problems." nil)
(3472652206 :privmsg "Krystof" "and they're not optimal in that it's usually possible to get down to zero conditionalizations by using relative pathnames, explicit make-pathname (not namestring syntax) with :case :common, and using *load-pathname* or similar to make the software location-independent" nil)
(3472652214 :privmsg "tmh" "It had to compete for 2 cores with a finite element analysis." nil)
(3472652237 :quit "sadiquea" "\"Leaving.\"" "n=sadiquea@122.172.7.83")
(3472652264 :privmsg "Krystof" "without knowing what problem you're trying to solve, I'm not sure how to be more specific.  My view is that if you use logical pathnames only to refer to files that the same lisp implementation has itself created, you're going to be OK; anything else and you might suffer" nil)
(3472652292 :join "adeht" nil "n=death@bzq-84-110-250-90.red.bezeqint.net")
(3472652375 :privmsg "Xach" "Krystof: currently, for some applications, i need to refer to external files, and sometimes I set up something like myapp:*base-directory* and merge with that to produce pathnames." nil)
(3472652402 :privmsg "Xach" "the external files are things like html templates, data files, font files, etc." nil)
(3472652429 :privmsg "Krystof" "(try referring to e.g. ~/.gnome2_private/foo or /etc/X11/xorg.conf.20070114121913)" nil)
(3472652453 :privmsg "Xach" "that leads to things like (load-font (merge-pathnames \"fonts/font.ttf\" *base-directory*)) or (load-font (app-path \"fonts/font.ttf\"))" nil)
(3472652453 :privmsg "Krystof" "if you control the names of those files, you are on reasonably safe ground" nil)
(3472652464 :privmsg "Xach" "now i think i can just use (load-font \"app:fonts;font.ttf\")" nil)
(3472652468 :privmsg "Xach" "and i like that a lot more" nil)
(3472652487 :privmsg "Krystof" "if the names of those files are arbitrary, you are in for pain" nil)
(3472652502 :privmsg "Xach" "No, they're my application files, and I control them fully." nil)
(3472652565 :privmsg "Krystof" "so if you are exchanging one location of conditionalization (that the user has to edit) and another, and gaining a more compact syntax, that's fine" nil)
(3472652595 :privmsg "Krystof" "my ideal is effectively position-independent installation, where everything dispatches from *load-pathname*, and the user/installer doesn't have to edit anything" nil)
(3472652644 :privmsg "Xach" "Well, I think I'm reducing it by one, because the application can set up an initial host based on *load-pathname* and I can override it during initialization if I need to." nil)
(3472652689 :privmsg "Xach" "i currently set up a special based on *load-pathname*; now i'll set up a translation." nil)
(3472652762 :privmsg "Xach" "i also like the potential for selectively overriding parts of the translation" nil)
(3472652769 :quit "ruediger" "Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=quassel@93-82-7-85.adsl.highway.telekom.at")
(3472652800 :privmsg "Xach" "if \"app:db;\" needs to point to a totally different path structure than \"app:templates;\" e.g." nil)
(3472652818 :privmsg "Xach" "not so easy with merging" nil)
(3472652887 :join "Adamant" nil "n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant")
(3472652910 :nick "mrSpec" "spec[afk]" "n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec")
(3472652978 :quit "Joreji_" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=thomas@134.61.80.139")
(3472652993 :quit "gabnet" "\"Quitte\"" "n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net")
(3472653097 :privmsg "Xach" "Hmm, how many octets of memory would a simple-vector of length 100 take in sbcl on amd64?" nil)
(3472653138 :privmsg "pjb" "Possibly something like 816 or 824 bytes, I'd guess." nil)
(3472653140 :join "mattrepl" nil "n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net")
(3472653157 :privmsg "pjb" "or even 832." nil)
(3472653195 :quit "kwinz3" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=kwinz@85.125.183.138")
(3472653262 :join "jleija" nil "n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net")
(3472653438 :quit "jleija" "Client Quit" "n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net")
(3472653439 :privmsg "Krystof" "816" nil)
(3472653451 :join "jleija" nil "n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net")
(3472653455 :privmsg "Krystof" "[header | length | data ...]" nil)
(3472653550 :privmsg "Xach" "thanks" nil)
(3472653569 :privmsg "Xach" "Krystof: do all simple arrays have the same header&length overhead size?" nil)
(3472653578 :privmsg "Krystof" "all one-dimensional simple arrays, yes" nil)
(3472653582 :privmsg "Xach" "thanks" nil)
(3472653590 :join "Joreji" nil "n=thomas@134.61.80.139")
(3472653628 :join "_Pb" nil "n=pb@75.131.194.186")
(3472653645 :join "kwinz3" nil "n=kwinz@85.125.183.138")
(3472653661 :privmsg "_Pb" "has anyone here been able to install asdf-install in ECL?" nil)
(3472653668 :privmsg "hypno" "not sure if it counts to \"up\" the logical pathname stuff in CL but I really love the URI support in SCL for example. though admittedly, when my life turns miserable, it has so far only been my own incompetence and lack of unstandardized features. :)" nil)
(3472653692 :privmsg "prxq" "tmh: I though 1.3. let me check." nil)
(3472653729 :privmsg "tmh" "prxq: I just downloaded the latest release, 1.4, but haven't installed it. The other thing is that I'm on RHEL x86_64, if that matters." nil)
(3472653766 :privmsg "prxq" "tmh: I'm using 1.4." nil)
(3472653774 :privmsg "prxq" "no idea if that matters :-)" nil)
(3472653778 :join "Athas`" nil "n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk")
(3472653898 :privmsg "prxq" "tmh: mind if we go the whole thing through step by step, to make sure I am not missing something?" nil)
(3472653947 :privmsg "prxq" "tmh: I downloaded it with svn co http://svn.clozure.com/publicsvn/openmcl/release/1.4/linuxx86/ccl" nil)
(3472653964 :quit "jleija" "\"leaving\"" "n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net")
(3472653978 :join "jleija" nil "n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net")
(3472654010 :privmsg "prxq" "then I did run lx86cl64 and issued the (rebuild-ccl :full t) command" nil)
(3472654092 :privmsg "tmh" "prxq: I just download the binary, I don't build it. I try not to build stuff unless I have a specific reason." nil)
(3472654143 :privmsg "tmh" "prxq: There are scripts for running ccl" nil)
(3472654238 :privmsg "prxq" "tmh: right. I moved the src dir to another place, edited the path in the ccl64 script, and moved that to a place in the path." nil)
(3472654297 :privmsg "tmh" "prxq: Doing a little house cleaning on my files, I'll have 1.4 running in a minute." nil)
(3472654319 :privmsg "tcr" "prxq: You can just create a symlink from ~/bin/ccl to that script" nil)
(3472654412 :privmsg "prxq" "i'm downloading the tarball to see how that goes" nil)
(3472654512 :quit "_Pb" "\"Leaving\"" "n=pb@75.131.194.186")
(3472654590 :privmsg "tmh" "prxq: (test-cores 7 #'consing-f) executes fine on 1.4." nil)
(3472654625 :join "syamajala" nil "n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net")
(3472654640 :quit "freiksenet" "Remote closed the connection" "n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi")
(3472654668 :privmsg "prxq" "that's odd" nil)
(3472654678 :privmsg "p_l" "prxq: so you ran HEAD, not stable" nil)
(3472654693 :privmsg "p_l" "ah, just rebuilt" nil)
(3472654693 :quit "Athas" "Connection timed out" "n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk")
(3472654700 :action "p_l" "didn't rebuild CCL" nil)
(3472654705 :privmsg "prxq" "well, they claim that's the best way to install ccl" nil)
(3472654742 :join "gonzojive" nil "n=red@171.66.109.141")
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(3472654819 :privmsg "prxq" "i get a segmentation fault with the ccl from the tarball too." nil)
(3472654867 :privmsg "tmh" "The subversion checkout includes binaries?" nil)
(3472654885 :nick "ragnul" "rahul" "n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net")
(3472654892 :privmsg "tmh" "Oh, the documentation states that." nil)
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(3472654948 :privmsg "tmh" "prxq: What platform are you running it on?" nil)
(3472654953 :privmsg "kenanb" "http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7834325690816256399&hl=tr&emb=1#docid=8612534856516244040" nil)
(3472654973 :privmsg "tmh" "kenanb: Description, please." nil)
(3472654996 :privmsg "kenanb" "wait a sec please :)" nil)
(3472655059 :privmsg "Fade" "prxq: I have ccl on amd x86-64 + linux 2.6.31 and your stuff doesn't segfault my machine." nil)
(3472655064 :privmsg "Fade" "only two cores, though." nil)
(3472655094 :privmsg "Xach" "tmh: something that apparently shows a lot of symbolics stuff at work" nil)
(3472655129 :privmsg "tmh" "Xach: thanks, I just didn't want to be bothered by spam." nil)
(3472655188 :join "Eni" nil "n=endy@064-090-158-071.plateautel.net")
(3472655235 :privmsg "hypno" "prxq: i just tested the tarball on \"Red Hat Enterprise Linux AS release 4 (Nahant Update 8)\" x86_64, with both the 32- and 64-bit binary. they both work fine for me." nil)
(3472655248 :privmsg "kenanb" "in this video showing the symbolics s-graphics software, they use the similar style with software like nendo, wings3d and izware mirai for the commands, like \".Inset\" \".Bevel\" in menus, most of them starting with a dot, is that a convention of some purpose, or is mirai inspired from symbolics 3d graphic modeling system" nil)
(3472655284 :privmsg "kenanb" "i've never seen such a style in other modeling tools" nil)
(3472655288 :privmsg "_3b" "my understanding is that they are related" nil)
(3472655306 :quit "Ragnaroek" "Remote closed the connection" "n=chatzill@p54A632D0.dip.t-dialin.net")
(3472655318 :privmsg "tmh" "Heh, the 80's called, they want their video back. :-P" nil)
(3472655360 :privmsg "kenanb" "btw i didn't know symbolics had such a powerful 3d modeling system for its time" nil)
(3472655397 :privmsg "Fade" "that ancestor of that system is still in use" nil)
(3472655408 :privmsg "prxq" "tmh: jaunty on an i7" nil)
(3472655428 :privmsg "prxq" "i have to go. bbl" nil)
(3472655451 :privmsg "Fade" "report the segfault to the appropriate ccl list" nil)
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(3472655538 :join "danlei" nil "n=user@pD9E2CC92.dip.t-dialin.net")
(3472655637 :privmsg "danlei" "is there something like FILE-DIRECTORY-P or DIRECTORY-PATHNAME-P in sbcl?" nil)
(3472655670 :privmsg "kpreid" "danlei: are you looking for whether something in the file system is a directory, or whether a pathname has the directory form?" nil)
(3472655717 :privmsg "danlei" "wether something in teh file system is a directory" nil)
(3472655742 :privmsg "kpreid" "danlei: well, I would install cl-fad and use cl-fad:directory-exists-p" nil)
(3472655750 :privmsg "danlei" "hm, ok" nil)
(3472655769 :privmsg "kpreid" "or you could look at its source and reach conclusions about how to do it in sbcl :-)" nil)
(3472655793 :privmsg "danlei" "how about checking the pathname for directoryness?" nil)
(3472655802 :privmsg "kpreid" "same answer, different function :)" nil)
(3472655809 :privmsg "danlei" "ok, ty :)" nil)
(3472655835 :privmsg "Fade" "danlei: cl-fad is derived from code developed in a practical in the PCL book" nil)
(3472655844 :privmsg "Fade" "if you want to explore the issues a bit." nil)
(3472655851 :quit "Kolyan" nil "n=nartamon@93-80-220-249.broadband.corbina.ru")
(3472655855 :join "Athas``" nil "n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk")
(3472655856 :privmsg "kpreid" "well. I looked, and: in sbcl, PROBE-FILE of a dir e.g. (probe-file \".\") will return a directory pathname. and such a pathname is distinguished by the NAME and TYPE being nil" nil)
(3472655864 :privmsg "Fade" "minion: tell danlei about PCL" nil)
(3472655886 :privmsg "danlei" "Fade: thanks, I remember that chapter, but I've used CCL exclusively for sime time and didn't remember if there was somethink like d-p-p was in SBLC" nil)
(3472655893 :privmsg "danlei" "*something" nil)
(3472655900 :privmsg "Fade" "ah" nil)
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(3472656019 :privmsg "danlei" "I've got a little function in ccl-init which pushes the dirs under asdf/site in *central-registry*, that's why I asked" nil)
(3472656025 :join "xinming" nil "n=hyy@218.73.141.32")
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(3472656042 :privmsg "danlei" "(when I'm on windows)" nil)
(3472656059 :join "Joreji" nil "n=thomas@134.61.80.139")
(3472656062 :privmsg "p_l" "danlei: why not patch asdf to use recursive search?" nil)
(3472656062 :join "arbscht" nil "n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht")
(3472656068 :privmsg "Fade" "ah.. cl-fad takes some pains to be cross implementation compatible, but I don't know how it works on windows." nil)
(3472656070 :join "jtza8" nil "n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-119-27.wbs.co.za")
(3472656103 :privmsg "Modius" "Funny that:  I'm using adding calls to CL-FAD as we speak, on windows.  Seems to be working." nil)
(3472656124 :privmsg "danlei" "p_l: you mean the \"alternate sysdef search functionality\" mentioned on the cliki page?" nil)
(3472656151 :privmsg "p_l" "danlei: possibly" nil)
(3472656192 :quit "galaxywatcher" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=galaxywa@ppp-61-90-28-75.revip.asianet.co.th")
(3472656194 :privmsg "p_l" "I have some code for that in my sbclrc, but I haven't actually used it (but I switched it to search my project dir)" nil)
(3472656236 :privmsg "Fade" "p_l: could you paste that code?" nil)
(3472656237 :join "stoop" nil "n=stoop@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net")
(3472656257 :privmsg "p_l" "Fade: wait a while, I'm restarting my FF session" nil)
(3472656263 :privmsg "Fade" "*nod*" nil)
(3472656271 :privmsg "danlei" "p_l: I'll have a look at it, atm I was just looking for the q&d solution ;)" nil)
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(3472656546 :privmsg "lisppaste" "p_l pasted \"subdirectory system search\" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93504" nil)
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(3472656580 :privmsg "lisppaste" "pkhuong annotated #93485 \"That's why the *specials* syntax is useful\" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93485#1" nil)
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(3472656686 :privmsg "danlei" "kpreid: ah, you're right, just checking for pathname-name & pathname-type should do it" nil)
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(3472656711 :privmsg "kpreid" "but with cl-fad you get portability to non-sbcl for free!" nil)
(3472656791 :privmsg "danlei" "kpreid: it's just for my init file to get the dirs under asdf/site, If it were for something 'real' I'd use cl-fat. ty!" nil)
(3472656799 :privmsg "danlei" "*cl-fad" nil)
(3472656879 :privmsg "danlei" "p_l: ok, that's what's on cliki" nil)
(3472656893 :privmsg "danlei" "p_l: I'll give it a try" nil)
(3472657096 :privmsg "tcr" "pkhuong: hahaha" nil)
(3472657131 :privmsg "tcr" "that's still an aweful lot of code :-)" nil)
(3472657155 :privmsg "tcr" "I mean in the special case" nil)
(3472657216 :privmsg "p_l" "pkhuong: thx for clarification" nil)
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(3472657801 :privmsg "prxq" "hypno: how many cores does your machine have?" nil)
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(3472658303 :nick "galaxywatcher_" "galaxywatcher" "n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-33.revip2.asianet.co.th")
(3472658304 :privmsg "hypno" "prxq: 4 x \"Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU 5160  @ 3.00GHz\"" nil)
(3472658347 :privmsg "_Pb" "has anyone here had success using ECL and lispbuilder-sdl?" nil)
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(3472658379 :privmsg "_Pb" "on the ECL wiki, it says it's supported, but you need CFFI to install it, which I don't think works well with ECL" nil)
(3472658404 :privmsg "adeht" "CFFI worked for me" nil)
(3472658418 :quit "danlei" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=user@pD9E2CC92.dip.t-dialin.net")
(3472658426 :privmsg "_Pb" "hmm, I'll try it, then" nil)
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(3472658588 :privmsg "_Pb" "how much trouble was installing CFFI under ECL?" nil)
(3472658619 :privmsg "adeht" "installing?" nil)
(3472658645 :privmsg "rahul" "why would it be any more difficult than anything else?" nil)
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(3472658683 :privmsg "_Pb" "because it seems to have a bunch of dependencies? I can't install it through asdf-install" nil)
(3472658688 :privmsg "_Pb" "sorry, I'm new to all of this" nil)
(3472658734 :privmsg "adeht" "I don't use asdf-install.  I just clone the repositories (if you're on linux, clbuild can do that for you)." nil)
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(3472658781 :privmsg "_Pb" "I'll try using clbuild then, thanks" nil)
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(3472659001 :privmsg "Guest44084" "_pb: it should install fine with asdf-install" nil)
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(3472659043 :privmsg "_Pb" "Guest44084: asdf-install'ing cffi or lispbuilder-sdl?" nil)
(3472659057 :privmsg "WarWeasle" "Hello, I have a question about SBCL: when I do this (+ 1190.33 -375.00) I get this: 815.32996. Is this a bug or am I a newb?" nil)
(3472659060 :privmsg "_Pb" "it can't find cffi for some reason" nil)
(3472659061 :privmsg "Guest44084" "cffi" nil)
(3472659064 :privmsg "_Pb" "ah" nil)
(3472659066 :privmsg "_Pb" "hmm" nil)
(3472659110 :privmsg "_Pb" "well, the thing is, I can't seem to get asdf-install to work properly, either" nil)
(3472659112 :privmsg "rahul" "WarWeasle: you need to learn about computers..." nil)
(3472659114 :quit "Joreji_" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=thomas@134.61.80.139")
(3472659118 :join "Joreji" nil "n=thomas@134.61.80.139")
(3472659123 :privmsg "adeht" "WarWeasle: http://docs.sun.com/source/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html" nil)
(3472659125 :privmsg "rahul" "WarWeasle: floating point numbers do not behave arithmetically" nil)
(3472659150 :privmsg "rahul" "WarWeasle: they're for numerical approximation, not for compuatation of stuff like accounts" nil)
(3472659152 :privmsg "WarWeasle" "Ok. so i need to create a rational?" nil)
(3472659163 :privmsg "rahul" "WarWeasle: or use integers scaled by a fixed amount" nil)
(3472659167 :privmsg "Fade" "floats are approximated." nil)
(3472659187 :privmsg "WarWeasle" "Thanks. I didn't think something like this would slip by you people" nil)
(3472659189 :privmsg "rahul" "WarWeasle: like, store account balances in integral pennies instead of fractional dollars" nil)
(3472659231 :privmsg "WarWeasle" "Is there a metric money system built in or do I need to make one..." nil)
(3472659250 :quit "guille_" "\"ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)\"" "n=user@247.Red-81-35-175.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net")
(3472659283 :privmsg "rahul" "WarWeasle: just use pennies in all your monetary computations" nil)
(3472659305 :privmsg "WarWeasle" "rahul: THanks. I'm doing bills :( and was curious." nil)
(3472659310 :privmsg "rahul" "scale it down for user interface output" nil)
(3472659312 :privmsg "drewc" "\"If you program for a while, you could lose track of the variables that you set to values.\" .... i'm not sure what that means, but i lol'ed... c.l.l has its moments :)" nil)
(3472659312 :join "bipt" nil "i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com")
(3472659342 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: sounds like a reason to avoid global variables to me" nil)
(3472659344 :action "Fade" "chuckles" nil)
(3472659374 :nick "joshee" "joshe" "n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org")
(3472659444 :part "WarWeasle" nil "n=brad@c-98-220-147-93.hsd1.in.comcast.net")
(3472659458 :privmsg "drewc" "Oh, and in great c.l.l tradition they've given the guy the answer rather then take him to task for doing it wrong." nil)
(3472659491 :privmsg "drewc" "At least here on #lisp we call you an idiot, then lead you to the right solution." nil)
(3472659521 :quit "_Pb" "\"Leaving\"" "n=pb@75.131.194.186")
(3472659540 :quit "jleija" "\"leaving\"" "n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net")
(3472659596 :privmsg "rahul" "where's Mr. Naggum when you need him... :(" nil)
(3472659627 :privmsg "sykopomp" "rahul: 6 feet under :(" nil)
(3472659740 :nick "_deepfire_" "_deepfire" "n=deepfire@80.92.100.69")
(3472659758 :quit "jgracin" "\"Leaving\"" "n=jgracin@vipnet3382.mobile.carnet.hr")
(3472659798 :join "knobo" nil "n=user@ti0073a340-0817.bb.online.no")
(3472659875 :privmsg "knobo" "is there a way to make sure an array with content like :(60 63 120 109 108 32 118 101 114 115 ...) is convertet to an utf-8 string?" nil)
(3472659899 :privmsg "rahul" "\"to make sure\"?" nil)
(3472659912 :privmsg "_3b__" "do you mean decode it into a string, interpreting the octets as utf-8 encoded characters?" nil)
(3472659917 :join "konr```" nil "n=user@189.98.83.62")
(3472659917 :privmsg "rahul" "you mean to make sure that it's a valid utf-8 sequence of octets?" nil)
(3472659955 :privmsg "knobo" "_3b__: yes" nil)
(3472659971 :privmsg "_3b__" "minion: tell knobo about babel" nil)
(3472660012 :privmsg "rahul" "sbcl has a conversion function built in" nil)
(3472660021 :privmsg "_3b__" "oops, no minion... http://common-lisp.net/project/babel/ has babel:octets-to-string" nil)
(3472660028 :privmsg "rahul" "but you can open the stream as utf-8 encoded in the first place if that's what is happening" nil)
(3472660236 :privmsg "knobo" "it should be easy to open the stream as utf-8. The result is from drakma, but I have set external-format-out and external-format-in to utf-8 and force-bnary is not set. But I still get the list of octets." nil)
(3472660271 :privmsg "rahul" "then something is clearly broken" nil)
(3472660286 :privmsg "rahul" "since integers are not subtypep character :)" nil)
(3472660318 :quit "Joreji" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=thomas@134.61.80.139")
(3472660322 :join "Joreji" nil "n=thomas@134.61.80.139")
(3472660371 :privmsg "knobo" " If FLEXI-STREAMS doesn't know the external format, the body is returned as an array of octets.  If the body is empty, Drakma will return NIL." nil)
(3472660397 :privmsg "knobo" "I have (defvar *utf-8* (flex:make-external-format :utf-8 :eol-style :lf))" nil)
(3472660416 :privmsg "knobo" "Then I pass *utf-8* as an argument" nil)
(3472660418 :join "balooga" nil "n=00u4440@99.162.211.151")
(3472660481 :quit "konr``" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=user@189.96.192.134")
(3472660509 :privmsg "rahul" "so, is that a external-format that flexi-streams knows?" nil)
(3472660510 :join "mjsor" nil "n=mjsor@75-93-57-35.war.clearwire-wmx.net")
(3472660530 :quit "Joreji" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=thomas@134.61.80.139")
(3472660651 :join "Joreji" nil "n=thomas@134.61.80.139")
(3472660758 :privmsg "knobo" "rahul: looks like it should be correct" nil)
(3472660817 :privmsg "rahul" "> (setf *hunchentoot-default-external-format* (flex:make-external-format" nil)
(3472660818 :privmsg "rahul" "> :utf-8 :eol-style :lf))" nil)
(3472660820 :privmsg "rahul" "maybe" nil)
(3472660870 :join "nowhere_man" nil "n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net")
(3472660873 :quit "syamajala" "\"Leaving...\"" "n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net")
(3472660939 :quit "mjsor" nil "n=mjsor@75-93-57-35.war.clearwire-wmx.net")
(3472660954 :join "gibsonf1" nil "n=user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net")
(3472661051 :privmsg "knobo" "aha... This sequence can't be decoded using UTF-8 as it is too short.  1 octet missing at then end." nil)
(3472661056 :privmsg "kenanb" "\"all kinds of brand shoes...\" \" Cheap wholesale Converse shoes...\" \"Paypal payment...\" i think it would be a spam filtering solution with enough efficiency if google even only filters messages starting with strange characters :p" nil)
(3472661148 :privmsg "knobo" "nope, that was not it. I'll go with octets-to-string for now." nil)
(3472661158 :privmsg "rahul" "kenanb: (setf *hunchentoot-default-external-format* (flex:make-external-format :ascii)) ;)" nil)
(3472661190 :join "amnesiac" nil "n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac")
(3472661196 :quit "Eni" "Client Quit" "n=endy@064-090-158-071.plateautel.net")
(3472661307 :join "ruediger" nil "n=quassel@93-82-7-85.adsl.highway.telekom.at")
(3472661362 :privmsg "kenanb" "rahul: :D or maybe (switch-to 'eternal-september)" nil)
(3472661457 :privmsg "kenanb" "rahul: probably mine is a bit too straightforward" nil)
(3472661465 :join "_Pb" nil "n=pb@75.131.194.186")
(3472661478 :privmsg "kenanb" "but i indeed should switch to eternal-september" nil)
(3472661514 :privmsg "drewc" "opening a web stream as utf-8 is the wrong thing to do, http is a binary protocol!" nil)
(3472661576 :join "abugosh" nil "n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com")
(3472661590 :action "drewc" "would use octets-to-string if/when he needs a string" nil)
(3472661653 :join "kenanb1" nil "n=kenanb@88.238.179.200")
(3472661678 :join "Sergio`" nil "n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt")
(3472661686 :join "JohnnyL" nil "i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net")
(3472661687 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "where can I find a text format downloadable dictionary?" nil)
(3472661713 :privmsg "jtza8" "Not a word list?" nil)
(3472661717 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: well, true" nil)
(3472661732 :privmsg "jtza8" "JohnnyL: Look at gutenberg.org" nil)
(3472661733 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: didn't know it was from http at first :)" nil)
(3472661746 :privmsg "jtza8" "JohnnyL: Websters dictionary." nil)
(3472661884 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "?" nil)
(3472661906 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "jtza8 a word list would be fantastic" nil)
(3472661980 :privmsg "jtza8" "JohnnyL: Debian usually has one, but if you can't find one, have a look at the aspell english spell checker." nil)
(3472662085 :privmsg "jtza8" "iirc you could try looking for a file named \"words\" in /usr/share/ but that's what I remembre and \"words\" might be the wrong name." nil)
(3472662118 :privmsg "rahul" "there's also dict" nil)
(3472662122 :part "ehu" nil "i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-iylbvadiahbbmxlb")
(3472662312 :join "yvdriess" nil "n=Beef@94-224-246-138.access.telenet.be")
(3472662313 :quit "abugosh" "\"Leaving.\"" "n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com")
(3472662353 :join "OmniMancer" nil "n=OmniManc@122-57-17-208.jetstream.xtra.co.nz")
(3472662402 :quit "Joreji" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=thomas@134.61.80.139")
(3472662405 :privmsg "tcr" "How is the need for a GC usually determined?" nil)
(3472662482 :quit "_Pb" "Remote closed the connection" "n=pb@75.131.194.186")
(3472662577 :privmsg "rahul" "tcr: amount of consing since last GC" nil)
(3472662601 :privmsg "fractalis" "Anyone else as much in love with StumpWM as I am?" nil)
(3472662644 :quit "retroj" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj")
(3472662682 :part "kenanb1" nil "n=kenanb@88.238.179.200")
(3472662733 :quit "Sergio`" "Client Quit" "n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt")
(3472662735 :quit "kenanb" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=kenanb@88.238.179.200")
(3472662751 :quit "OmniMancer" "\"Leaving.\"" "n=OmniManc@122-57-17-208.jetstream.xtra.co.nz")
(3472662766 :join "Sergio`" nil "n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt")
(3472662830 :join "danlei" nil "n=user@pD9E2CC92.dip.t-dialin.net")
(3472662844 :join "balooga1" nil "n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-151.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net")
(3472662942 :quit "gibsonf1" "Connection timed out" "n=user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net")
(3472662996 :quit "plutonas" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=plutonas@port-92-195-48-129.dynamic.qsc.de")
(3472663074 :join "balooga2" nil "n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-151.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net")
(3472663136 :privmsg "Fade" "jfc. c.l.l is still a morass." nil)
(3472663172 :join "abugosh" nil "n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com")
(3472663185 :privmsg "rahul" "with emphasis on the more and the ass" nil)
(3472663223 :privmsg "Fade" "not that you'd expect it to become more signal rich over time." nil)
(3472663262 :join "tarleb" nil "n=tarleb@e179236077.adsl.alicedsl.de")
(3472663286 :join "plutonas" nil "n=plutonas@port-92-195-48-129.dynamic.qsc.de")
(3472663286 :join "timor" nil "n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de")
(3472663299 :privmsg "tcr" "One way to improve is to concentrate on signal, and introduce more of it." nil)
(3472663374 :privmsg "tcr" "Though I stopped reading a month ago after trying that" nil)
(3472663448 :privmsg "Fade" "this xahlee@gmail character is hilarious." nil)
(3472663457 :action "Xach" "has been a satisfied customer for many years" nil)
(3472663467 :privmsg "drewc" "Fade: I'm a big fan myself." nil)
(3472663507 :privmsg "tmh" "Xah is posting again? I thought he had found other interests." nil)
(3472663522 :quit "Sergio`" "Client Quit" "n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt")
(3472663531 :privmsg "tmh" "Oh, a Xah parody?" nil)
(3472663533 :quit "mcspiff" "Remote closed the connection" "n=user@142.68.78.64")
(3472663537 :join "Sergio`" nil "n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt")
(3472663584 :action "tmh" "almost wants to go read cll." nil)
(3472663592 :privmsg "Fade" "my jnewrc was way out of date. I think i'm in October at the moment." nil)
(3472663678 :quit "ikki" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=ikki@189.247.103.231")
(3472663767 :quit "TJohn" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "i=as@118-160-172-107.dynamic.hinet.net")
(3472663786 :nick "daniel_" "daniel" "i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel")
(3472663907 :quit "redline6561" "\"Leaving.\"" "n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net")
(3472664119 :quit "balooga" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=00u4440@99.162.211.151")
(3472664146 :quit "balooga1" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-151.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net")
(3472664155 :quit "danlei" "Remote closed the connection" "n=user@pD9E2CC92.dip.t-dialin.net")
(3472664483 :quit "parolang" "Remote closed the connection" "n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net")
(3472664825 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "SLIME is telling me after compilation: \"1 style-warning\", but how do I see that warning?" nil)
(3472664847 :privmsg "pbusser" "By scrolling up?" nil)
(3472664879 :quit "saikatc" nil "n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net")
(3472664939 :privmsg "tcr" "RaceCondition: You can press M-n, M-p in the .lisp buffer" nil)
(3472664993 :privmsg "tcr" "RaceCondition: And you can use C-x ` (M-x next-error) to pop up the *SLIME Compilation* buffer and show the location" nil)
(3472665005 :quit "abugosh" "\"Leaving.\"" "n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com")
(3472665014 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "oh" nil)
(3472665022 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "*SLIME Compilation* is the window, I see" nil)
(3472665055 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "I was looking in the *Messages* buffer" nil)
(3472665102 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "what's *slime events* for?" nil)
(3472665108 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "*slime-events*, I mean" nil)
(3472665134 :privmsg "tcr" "that's a log of the RPC calls and returns" nil)
(3472665153 :privmsg "tcr" "for debugging slime itself" nil)
(3472665187 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "but it looks more like Lisp code than a log" nil)
(3472665187 :privmsg "_deepfire" "CLisp's RUN-PROGRAM is more anemic than ECL's" nil)
(3472665194 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "oh, it logs in Lisp format" nil)
(3472665214 :privmsg "tcr" "the protocol is based on sexprs" nil)
(3472665263 :privmsg "tcr" "It's pretty much exactly what is sent over the socket" nil)
(3472665325 :join "partisan" nil "n=partisan@121.124.124.117")
(3472665391 :privmsg "jtza8" "How can I send a message with a condition?" nil)
(3472665407 :privmsg "jtza8" "e.g." nil)
(3472665448 :privmsg "jtza8" "(alert <predicate> () 'some-condition :var <value>)" nil)
(3472665469 :privmsg "tcr" "That looks like what ASSERT does already do" nil)
(3472665478 :privmsg "jtza8" "*type" nil)
(3472665480 :privmsg "jtza8" "o" nil)
(3472665487 :privmsg "jtza8" "*assert" nil)
(3472665490 :privmsg "jtza8" "not allert" nil)
(3472665500 :privmsg "tcr" "Then I don't get what you mean" nil)
(3472665509 :join "kwinz3_" nil "n=kwinz@85.125.183.138")
(3472665547 :privmsg "jtza8" "So it's (just to be clear): (assert <predicate> () 'some-condition :var <value>)" nil)
(3472665547 :privmsg "jtza8" "and" nil)
(3472665577 :privmsg "jtza8" "I mean, how would I be able to get a message akin to (error \"Something went wrong\")" nil)
(3472665608 :privmsg "tcr" "(assert (foop x) (x) \"Something went wrong. ~S is not a foo.\" x)" nil)
(3472665613 :quit "lukjad007" "Client Quit" "n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007")
(3472665651 :privmsg "jtza8" "... yes, but..." nil)
(3472665663 :privmsg "jtza8" "That's just a simple-error condition." nil)
(3472665675 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "cond: Error: DEFINITION-SOURCE of macro TESTMACRO did not contain meaningful information. <-- what's that mean?" nil)
(3472665691 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "it works for function foo, but not testmacro" nil)
(3472665706 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "oh, it hadn't been compiled..." nil)
(3472665741 :privmsg "tcr" "jtza8: Then you have to specify a condition reporter in the DEFINE-CONDITION form of SOME-CONDITION" nil)
(3472665759 :join "lukjad007" nil "n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007")
(3472665761 :privmsg "jtza8" "Ah, thanks!" nil)
(3472665765 :privmsg "tcr" "jtza8: via the (:report ...) clause" nil)
(3472665807 :privmsg "tcr" "RaceCondition: Yeah that error message comes from me and it's unnecessarily obtuse" nil)
(3472665827 :privmsg "tcr" "It says what went wrong, but that's not interesting to the user" nil)
(3472665922 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "tcr: that error message comes from you? :P what do you mean" nil)
(3472665928 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "or you mean you wrote it?" nil)
(3472665955 :privmsg "tcr" "The latter" nil)
(3472665989 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "anyway... I added a (format t \"testmacro running\") sentence to testmacro just for testing, but where I can see the output? does the compiler swallow it?" nil)
(3472666032 :privmsg "tcr" "Paste your code using lisppaste" nil)
(3472666065 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "can I only use lisppaste in this channel? :P" nil)
(3472666069 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "not that I have anything against it" nil)
(3472666091 :join "saikatc" nil "n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net")
(3472666107 :privmsg "lisppaste" "RaceCondition pasted \"testmacro output\" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93511" nil)
(3472666150 :quit "balooga2" "\"Leaving.\"" "n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-151.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net")
(3472666153 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "what keeps someone else from using my username there though?" nil)
(3472666156 :privmsg "p_l" "RaceCondition: lisppaste is just preferred here, due to above output :)" nil)
(3472666156 :privmsg "tcr" "You have to define macros before their uses" nil)
(3472666167 :quit "kwinz3" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=kwinz@85.125.183.138")
(3472666177 :privmsg "tcr" "And what makes you think that the output is swallowed?" nil)
(3472666217 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "tcr: but why did I get no error then?" nil)
(3472666236 :privmsg "tcr" "Probably because you had a definition of TESTMACRO already in your image" nil)
(3472666240 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "and I was just asking whether it got swallowed or I could see it somewhere" nil)
(3472666257 :privmsg "tcr" "e.g. because you C-c C-c'd the definitions separately, and first wrote the macro" nil)
(3472666273 :privmsg "tcr" "You can see it in the slime-repl buffer" nil)
(3472666311 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "oh, cool, now I see it" nil)
(3472666320 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "and I actually compiled the whole file, not just the def" nil)
(3472666352 :privmsg "tcr" "If you try to C-c C-k that in a fresh image (after ,restart-inferior-lisp), you'll see that it fails" nil)
(3472666361 :privmsg "tcr" "Think about it: Why do macros have to be defined before their uses?" nil)
(3472666362 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "damn, I could use a 2560x1920 resolution" nil)
(3472666387 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "tcr: I thought of that actually, I was just testing out to see how it works when I put it after :)" nil)
(3472666393 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: go work for Morgan Stanley in London" nil)
(3472666394 :privmsg "rahul" "heh" nil)
(3472666405 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: what do you mean?" nil)
(3472666413 :action "Fade" "laughs" nil)
(3472666414 :privmsg "rahul" "their center monitor has that resolution" nil)
(3472666421 :privmsg "rahul" "in the standard setup for traders" nil)
(3472666430 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: I'll just buy a 27 inch iMac..." nil)
(3472666431 :privmsg "Fade" "a lot of those trading stations use many heads with very high resolutions." nil)
(3472666434 :privmsg "rahul" "two others around it at some lower resoliution, not sure what" nil)
(3472666439 :privmsg "Modius" "when working on a deployable CL app of size, do you often package up the sub-portions or subsystems for loading via ASDF, or is that something that's just used for shared libraries in practice?" nil)
(3472666448 :privmsg "tcr" "RaceCondition: It's good test of understanding; why do macros have to be defined before their uses?" nil)
(3472666454 :privmsg "rahul" "I have 3 at some decent resolution at my workstation" nil)
(3472666464 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "tcr: I know how macros work, don't worry" nil)
(3472666469 :quit "saikatc" nil "n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net")
(3472666478 :privmsg "rahul" "I hope to acquire a 4th some time in the next 6 months :P" nil)
(3472666488 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "tcr: and if you insist I answer: the compiler needs to know about them before they're used, because otherwise it will think it's a function" nil)
(3472666492 :privmsg "rahul" "a guy who sits near me has 4 already" nil)
(3472666503 :join "saikatc" nil "n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net")
(3472666509 :privmsg "Fade" "I only have a 23\" cinema display at the moment; I'd like to get two more." nil)
(3472666511 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "tcr: ...probably a non-existent function, too" nil)
(3472666513 :privmsg "Fade" "one in portrait." nil)
(3472666523 :privmsg "tcr" "RaceCondition: Yup" nil)
(3472666532 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "tcr: as I said, I was just hacking" nil)
(3472666548 :privmsg "rahul" "my home setup is just a single 20 inch widescreen" nil)
(3472666559 :privmsg "rahul" "I should get a second monitor, I guess" nil)
(3472666559 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: so you guys use multiple graphics cards or what?" nil)
(3472666566 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: yep two quadros" nil)
(3472666574 :privmsg "Fade" "my current setup causes me to juggle a really improbably number of virtual desktops." nil)
(3472666575 :privmsg "rahul" "that's standard setup across the company" nil)
(3472666579 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "I'd probably be very satisfied with a 27\" iMac + maybe an external 1920x1200 monitor" nil)
(3472666583 :privmsg "Fade" "s/improbably/improbable." nil)
(3472666592 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: what do you do? software?" nil)
(3472666596 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: yeah" nil)
(3472666604 :privmsg "Fade" "lisp?" nil)
(3472666608 :privmsg "rahul" "Fade: I wish" nil)
(3472666608 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: so all developers in your company have 3 monitors?" nil)
(3472666616 :privmsg "tcr" "RaceCondition: To be precise: Undefined-function warnings are defered until the end of a compilation unit; at the end of a compilation unit (usually a file is a compilation unit, but see with-compilation-unit) warnings are compared with the state at that point, and if the previously undefined function is defined, the warning won't be shown" nil)
(3472666618 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: 2 or 3, usually" nil)
(3472666632 :privmsg "rahul" "for some reason I had 3 right away" nil)
(3472666637 :privmsg "Fade" "doing financial stuff in anything other than lisp sounds like a serious pain in the ass." nil)
(3472666647 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "tcr: well that could be applied to macros as well, though :) it wouldn't be very complicated, or does it have some implications?" nil)
(3472666650 :privmsg "sykopomp" "ditto here. Most people at work have 2-3 monitors." nil)
(3472666653 :privmsg "rahul" "Fade: why, specifically?" nil)
(3472666658 :privmsg "tcr" "RaceCondition: No it does not make sense for macros" nil)
(3472666677 :privmsg "rahul" "Fade: we're not really managing all the reams of data. mostly presenting information to traders" nil)
(3472666677 :privmsg "Fade" "mostly because I don't really speak algol syntaxes natively any more. :P" nil)
(3472666682 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "I'm with my sister's 1280x800 MacBook because my 1920x1200 MacBook Pro was stolen and I can't use my external display because I don't have a mini-DVI converter..." nil)
(3472666690 :quit "leo2007" "\"rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.91.2\"" "n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3472666691 :privmsg "rahul" "Fade: s/financial// then ;)" nil)
(3472666699 :privmsg "Fade" "yeah, well" nil)
(3472666708 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "does anyone feel my pain?" nil)
(3472666714 :privmsg "tcr" "RaceCondition: What is the reason that the compiler thinks that an unknown form is a function call?" nil)
(3472666724 :privmsg "Fade" "then there are the issues with how non-lisp languages handle numbers." nil)
(3472666736 :privmsg "Krystof" "certainly, being condemned to use Apple computers is painful" nil)
(3472666737 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "tcr: because of what you just said moments ago :P" nil)
(3472666745 :privmsg "Fade" "it's all just \"good enough for rock and roll\"." nil)
(3472666758 :privmsg "rahul" "Fade: yeah, we have internal math libraries for dealing with monetary values" nil)
(3472666777 :privmsg "rahul" "in fact, we have internal libraries for all kinds of crazy stuff" nil)
(3472666779 :privmsg "Fade" "you're using java?" nil)
(3472666790 :privmsg "rahul" "there's an in-house pub/sub system here" nil)
(3472666801 :privmsg "rahul" "Fade: I am. C# is used for the GUI" nil)
(3472666819 :privmsg "Fade" "the overlords/architects are all insanely conservative?" nil)
(3472666825 :privmsg "Fade" "clojure is pretty sweet. :)" nil)
(3472666828 :privmsg "tcr" "rahul: So you're \"that Lisp guy\"?" nil)
(3472666834 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: you do financial computing/apps?" nil)
(3472666842 :quit "lypanov" nil "n=lypanov@s5591e4de.adsl.wanadoo.nl")
(3472666876 :join "milanj" nil "n=milan@79.101.180.172")
(3472666880 :privmsg "rahul" "tcr: well, Vassil Nikolov or however you spell his name predates me at MS" nil)
(3472666882 :join "lypanov" nil "n=lypanov@s5591e4de.adsl.wanadoo.nl")
(3472666888 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: yeah" nil)
(3472666920 :privmsg "rahul" "currently working on their loan trading application but will transition to risk reporting across all of credit soon" nil)
(3472666988 :privmsg "rahul" "which is pretty important, since they have a $50 billion portfolio of loans :P" nil)
(3472667002 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "how many of you actually work with lisp?" nil)
(3472667007 :privmsg "rahul" "many of which can't be cleanly hedged" nil)
(3472667012 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "I mean, do lisp that their work" nil)
(3472667012 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: none, officially" nil)
(3472667021 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "that=at" nil)
(3472667032 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "really? there are so few lisp jobs out there?" nil)
(3472667041 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "or only the real freaks get those?" nil)
(3472667051 :privmsg "rahul" "oh I thought you meant at Morgan Stanley" nil)
(3472667058 :privmsg "rahul" "no, in here, there are many" nil)
(3472667064 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "yeah, that's what I meant" nil)
(3472667067 :privmsg "rahul" "I used to a couple years ago" nil)
(3472667075 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "I haven't heard of a single Lisp job in my country..." nil)
(3472667080 :privmsg "rahul" "was a contractor for ITA" nil)
(3472667090 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: where?" nil)
(3472667095 :privmsg "rahul" "oh estonia?" nil)
(3472667097 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "Estonia, Northern-Europe" nil)
(3472667106 :privmsg "rahul" "well, there's plenty in Northern Europe" nil)
(3472667112 :privmsg "rahul" "maybe not specifically in Estonia" nil)
(3472667126 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: how did you know .ee was Estonia? most people wouldn't..." nil)
(3472667126 :privmsg "rahul" "but Norway and Sweeden have quite a bit of lisp" nil)
(3472667136 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: yeah, that I know" nil)
(3472667154 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "probably there's some in Estonia, too, in the telecom/high-tech/academic etc sector" nil)
(3472667158 :privmsg "rahul" "I know too many \"crazy russians\" hehe" nil)
(3472667174 :join "gruseom" nil "n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net")
(3472667177 :quit "Guthur" "\"Computer says no\"" "n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com")
(3472667178 :privmsg "rahul" "haven't heard anything about lisp in any of the baltic states myself" nil)
(3472667180 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "I assume you also live in Europe?" nil)
(3472667191 :privmsg "rahul" "no, new york city" nil)
(3472667196 :join "Guthur" nil "n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com")
(3472667204 :join "retroj" nil "n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj")
(3472667211 :quit "Sergio`" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt")
(3472667215 :privmsg "rahul" "many immigrant families from all over eastern europe" nil)
(3472667217 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "so how do you know about the baltics and northern europe?" nil)
(3472667223 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "oh, yeah" nil)
(3472667229 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "sadly" nil)
(3472667266 :privmsg "tcr" "sure all americans are massively undereducated cowboys" nil)
(3472667354 :privmsg "rahul" "eastern europeans are educated cowboys :P" nil)
(3472667360 :join "Sergio`" nil "n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt")
(3472667364 :privmsg "tmh" "I can't even lasso, I'm just massively undereducated" nil)
(3472667399 :join "pr_" nil "n=pr@p579CA89D.dip.t-dialin.net")
(3472667468 :join "francogrex" nil "n=user@188.143-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be")
(3472667585 :quit "francogrex" "Remote closed the connection" "n=user@188.143-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be")
(3472667585 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: I think IT education in general is better the west you go" nil)
(3472667607 :join "NNshag" nil "n=shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-45-49.adsl.proxad.net")
(3472667609 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "also the software industry here is just child's play..." nil)
(3472667615 :privmsg "Fade" "the way they teach math in north america is just awful." nil)
(3472667623 :privmsg "Fade" "until you get to university" nil)
(3472667625 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "Fade: you mean in high schools or universities?" nil)
(3472667627 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "yeah" nil)
(3472667657 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "do they actually teach anything anymore in schools? I thought all the teachers were afraid of being sued for harrassment..." nil)
(3472667672 :privmsg "Fade" "er.." nil)
(3472667674 :quit "Nshag" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=shag@lns-bzn-53-82-65-38-59.adsl.proxad.net")
(3472667679 :privmsg "Fade" "blah. offtopic." nil)
(3472667685 :privmsg "_deepfire" "RaceCondition, my guess was that scandinavian countries have pretty good CS" nil)
(3472667710 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "_deepfire: yes, I was referring more to ourselves here..." nil)
(3472667715 :join "Joreji" nil "n=thomas@134.61.80.139")
(3472667784 :action "_deepfire" "watches git-cvsimport plowing through decades of clisp development history" nil)
(3472667790 :quit "Sergio`" "Client Quit" "n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt")
(3472667836 :join "abugosh" nil "n=Adium@65-78-105-20.c3-0.drf-ubr1.atw-drf.pa.cable.rcn.com")
(3472667876 :privmsg "fe[nl]ix" "_deepfire: did you know about git://sbcl.boinkor.net/clisp.git ?" nil)
(3472667902 :privmsg "_deepfire" "fe[nl]ix, no, that'd save me the effort, thanks!" nil)
(3472667905 :privmsg "rahul" "CS in america is basically all theoretical crap" nil)
(3472667923 :privmsg "rahul" "only a few programs even allow you to learn about practical software engineering" nil)
(3472667944 :privmsg "rahul" "in Europe, there seems to be more availability of practical education in software" nil)
(3472667960 :privmsg "bill`" "there's french people in europe, though" nil)
(3472668043 :privmsg "rahul" "heh" nil)
(3472668082 :privmsg "rahul" "probably as many in NYC as there are anywhere in eastern europe, actually" nil)
(3472668096 :privmsg "fe[nl]ix" "bill`: that's a fortunate thing" nil)
(3472668170 :join "anton" nil "n=Miranda@93.125.49.66")
(3472668247 :join "ikki" nil "n=ikki@189.139.217.33")
(3472668334 :quit "jtza8" "\"Zzz\"" "n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-119-27.wbs.co.za")
(3472668403 :quit "pr" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=pr@unaffiliated/pr")
(3472668587 :quit "araujo" "\"Leaving\"" "n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo")
(3472668809 :join "rajesh" nil "n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh")
(3472668810 :privmsg "_deepfire" "Hmm, clisp's port seems to promise the most trouble." nil)
(3472668848 :privmsg "bill`" "SBCL son" nil)
(3472668858 :privmsg "bill`" "reverse core dump say what" nil)
(3472668894 :privmsg "sykopomp" "rahul: CS in america is disgustingly practical." nil)
(3472668899 :privmsg "sykopomp" "at least lately." nil)
(3472668922 :privmsg "Fade" "it's practical if you want to spend your days as a java programmer. :)" nil)
(3472668923 :join "litherp2" nil "n=piratman@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net")
(3472668927 :privmsg "sykopomp" "exactly" nil)
(3472668945 :privmsg "sykopomp" "it's all design patterns, java, and project management/software 'engineering' lately." nil)
(3472668960 :privmsg "sykopomp" "spits out more code monkeys than talented hackers, imo." nil)
(3472668992 :privmsg "_deepfire" "The pythonisation of SICP could be regarded as being aligned to practicality I guess." nil)
(3472669010 :privmsg "sykopomp" "indeed." nil)
(3472669022 :privmsg "sykopomp" "and it wasn't just MIT" nil)
(3472669051 :quit "lispm" "Remote closed the connection" "n=joswig@e177159135.adsl.alicedsl.de")
(3472669054 :privmsg "sykopomp" "UMass Amherst did the same thing -- it dropped its SICP course in favor of a \"Programming Methodologies\" course, which was, specifically 'learn how to use Java, Design Patterns, SVN, and Eclipse'" nil)
(3472669061 :privmsg "sykopomp" "I wish I could speak more highly of it :\\" nil)
(3472669128 :privmsg "Fade" "that's a bummer, all around." nil)
(3472669145 :privmsg "sykopomp" "it's almost insulting" nil)
(3472669152 :privmsg "litherp2" "i don't think any design patter book tells you to actually apply them verbatim. they're more of a way to identify patterns in your code." nil)
(3472669222 :privmsg "sykopomp" "Head First Design Patterns labels itself as being 'practical'" nil)
(3472669252 :privmsg "p_l" "I know what I am going to ask on design patterns, if we come to those in my courses" nil)
(3472669258 :privmsg "Fade" "design pattern books are the CS equivalent of \"hooked on phonics\"" nil)
(3472669267 :privmsg "litherp2" "it's quite possible that some people see bigger patterns in the design than others." nil)
(3472669282 :privmsg "Fade" "sure, they can be useful, but you have to know enough scope to see where and how." nil)
(3472669384 :privmsg "Fade" "i'm sure there's an aphorism in there somewhere.." nil)
(3472669392 :quit "pbusser" "\"Client Quit\"" "n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl")
(3472669393 :privmsg "Fade" "\"That is far too practical to be useful.\" , perhaps." nil)
(3472669443 :privmsg "litherp2" "design patterns are frequently used in enterprise software." nil)
(3472669462 :privmsg "Fade" "mu" nil)
(3472669464 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "for some reason, I managed to make my REPL in Emacs read-only..." nil)
(3472669465 :quit "varjag" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no")
(3472669484 :privmsg "tcr" "Eh yeah there's a stupid bug I've seen that too" nil)
(3472669496 :privmsg "tcr" "You can try M-: (setq inhibit-read-only t) RET" nil)
(3472669511 :privmsg "tcr" "then go the point-max of the buffer, press RET" nil)
(3472669515 :join "varjag" nil "n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no")
(3472669525 :privmsg "tcr" "if a new repl prompt appears, do M-: (setq inhibit-read-only nil) RET" nil)
(3472669547 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "hmm, the first thing was enough" nil)
(3472669562 :privmsg "tcr" "Only do that temporarily" nil)
(3472669568 :quit "Edico" "\"Ex-Chat\"" "n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico")
(3472669581 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "OK" nil)
(3472669799 :privmsg "tcr" "So I think a little pattern-based macro system would actually be useful" nil)
(3472669847 :join "varjagg" nil "n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no")
(3472669848 :privmsg "tcr" "You actually specify your macro's syntax in a more fine-grained way that way, having positive effects on automatic arglist display" nil)
(3472669924 :privmsg "tcr" "Has anyone implemented one in CL?" nil)
(3472670112 :nick "spec[afk]" "mrSpec" "n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec")
(3472670117 :quit "hypno" "\"leaving\"" "n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com")
(3472670166 :quit "Adlai" "Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai")
(3472670214 :privmsg "Fade" "i need some ellaboration on what you mean by 'pattern-based macro system'" nil)
(3472670215 :privmsg "Fade" ":)" nil)
(3472670297 :join "Adlai" nil "n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai")
(3472670385 :quit "yvdriess" "\"This computer has gone to sleep\"" "n=Beef@94-224-246-138.access.telenet.be")
(3472670412 :privmsg "rahul" "tcr: as opposed to the destructuring lambda-list already in macros?" nil)
(3472670491 :privmsg "tcr" "rahul: That's a) pretty primitive, and b) is hidden in the macro-function" nil)
(3472670564 :privmsg "rahul" "hidden?" nil)
(3472670596 :privmsg "rahul" "tcr: you want something like the ... in some schemes?" nil)
(3472670605 :join "Sergio`" nil "n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt")
(3472670607 :privmsg "rahul" "or do you want a full BNF parser?" nil)
(3472670609 :quit "konr```" "Remote closed the connection" "n=user@189.98.83.62")
(3472670641 :join "konr" nil "n=user@189.98.83.62")
(3472670648 :privmsg "rahul" "i.e., do you want to be able to declare the syntax of defclass or loop directly in the lambda list?" nil)
(3472670672 :privmsg "tcr" "clhs-style bnf parser would be nice, yes. But I didn't think that far" nil)
(3472670698 :quit "ace4016" "\"When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire.\"" "i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com")
(3472670716 :privmsg "rahul" "I'd support having a ... kind of thing" nil)
(3472670734 :privmsg "tcr" "Just pattern matching, probably like what's in the scheme standard though I have never used it" nil)
(3472670736 :privmsg "rahul" "full BNF is kind of overkill and useless for arglist" nil)
(3472670774 :privmsg "rahul" "unless you want to show multiple possibilities as the arglist" nil)
(3472670780 :nick "pr_" "pr" "n=pr@p579CA89D.dip.t-dialin.net")
(3472670784 :quit "varjag" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no")
(3472670785 :privmsg "tcr" "destructuring-bind + typep in sequentially tried clauses" nil)
(3472670794 :privmsg "tcr" "No, I want to do the right thing depending on the  context" nil)
(3472670890 :join "slash_" nil "n=drevil@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de")
(3472670892 :privmsg "rahul" "well, then arglist display is going to be insane" nil)
(3472670904 :privmsg "rahul" "that's basically BNF" nil)
(3472670917 :privmsg "rahul" "you can't show BNF in one clear line" nil)
(3472670924 :privmsg "rahul" "it's a decision tree" nil)
(3472670940 :privmsg "rahul" "and if context matters, then you need backtracking, too" nil)
(3472670943 :privmsg "tcr" "Sure and you traverse it with the already typed input" nil)
(3472670952 :privmsg "rahul" "and then what do you display?" nil)
(3472670969 :privmsg "rahul" "traversing it results in multiple possibilities" nil)
(3472670994 :privmsg "tcr" "So you show multiple possibilities" nil)
(3472671000 :privmsg "rahul" "and going forward you have a tree of possibilities from where you are now" nil)
(3472671017 :join "kenanb" nil "n=kenanb@88.238.179.200")
(3472671046 :privmsg "rahul" "you're basically asking for something like showing what partial C++ syntax could mean" nil)
(3472671081 :privmsg "rahul" "well, C++ syntax is based on semantics as well as tokens" nil)
(3472671085 :privmsg "rahul" "so it's even worse" nil)
(3472671096 :privmsg "rahul" "although that actually reduces the possibilities" nil)
(3472671132 :join "sepult`" nil "n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-51.netcologne.de")
(3472671148 :privmsg "tcr" "In Lisp, it's pretty easy because you mostly have to distinguish between \"Is this a symbol or a cons\"" nil)
(3472671170 :quit "Joreji" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=thomas@134.61.80.139")
(3472671242 :quit "Davidbrcz" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr")
(3472671315 :join "Joreji" nil "n=thomas@134.61.80.139")
(3472671344 :quit "hicx174_" "Remote closed the connection" "n=hicx174@211.44.210.50")
(3472671371 :nick "Zephyrus__" "Zephyrus" "n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus")
(3472671808 :privmsg "rahul" "tcr: um not if you're going to be context-sensitive like loop's syntax" nil)
(3472671818 :privmsg "rahul" "then the exact symbol matters" nil)
(3472671841 :privmsg "rahul" "and then you need to add the special case of keywords even if you're not allowing BNF" nil)
(3472671882 :privmsg "tcr" "You brought up BNF and LOOP" nil)
(3472671908 :privmsg "rahul" "you haven't proposed any alternative description of what you want..." nil)
(3472671950 :privmsg "tcr" "I did." nil)
(3472671966 :privmsg "tcr" "Anyway that was just a random thought I had while writing this macro I'm writing" nil)
(3472671987 :quit "slash_" "Client Quit" "n=drevil@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de")
(3472672002 :quit "sepult" "Success" "n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-241.netcologne.de")
(3472672064 :quit "varjagg" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no")
(3472672133 :join "weev" nil "n=tomato@locke.rains.net")
(3472672140 :join "timothy" nil "n=419king@pool-71-188-31-6.cmdnnj.east.verizon.net")
(3472672167 :join "kloeri" nil "i=kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri")
(3472672173 :join "coicxerqvult" nil "n=lnh@97-117-95-175.slkc.qwest.net")
(3472672173 :privmsg "coicxerqvult" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672173 :privmsg "coicxerqvult" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672173 :join "gvkrwwlvdve" nil "n=ydhbyrgg@97-117-95-175.slkc.qwest.net")
(3472672173 :privmsg "gvkrwwlvdve" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672173 :privmsg "gvkrwwlvdve" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672174 :join "axpbebbefl" nil "n=fdppdzq@97-117-95-175.slkc.qwest.net")
(3472672174 :privmsg "axpbebbefl" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672174 :privmsg "axpbebbefl" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672174 :privmsg "coicxerqvult" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672174 :privmsg "gvkrwwlvdve" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672175 :privmsg "axpbebbefl" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672176 :quit "coicxerqvult" "K-lined" "n=lnh@97-117-95-175.slkc.qwest.net")
(3472672176 :quit "gvkrwwlvdve" "K-lined" "n=ydhbyrgg@97-117-95-175.slkc.qwest.net")
(3472672176 :quit "axpbebbefl" "K-lined" "n=fdppdzq@97-117-95-175.slkc.qwest.net")
(3472672185 :join "naxnkasfkrp" nil "n=lmz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com")
(3472672185 :privmsg "naxnkasfkrp" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672185 :privmsg "naxnkasfkrp" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672186 :join "bywgclwe" nil "n=uwqsnbvd@gprs-prointernet-ffe3c200-10.dhcp.inet.fi")
(3472672186 :privmsg "bywgclwe" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672186 :privmsg "bywgclwe" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672186 :privmsg "naxnkasfkrp" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672187 :quit "naxnkasfkrp" "K-lined" "n=lmz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com")
(3472672187 :quit "gz" "K-lined" "n=gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com")
(3472672187 :privmsg "bywgclwe" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672187 :privmsg "sykopomp" "whoa, the gnaa is still around." nil)
(3472672188 :quit "bywgclwe" "K-lined" "n=uwqsnbvd@gprs-prointernet-ffe3c200-10.dhcp.inet.fi")
(3472672198 :join "varjagg" nil "n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no")
(3472672202 :join "ugq" nil "i=stryyke1@ppp118-208-216-105.lns20.hba1.internode.on.net")
(3472672202 :privmsg "ugq" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672202 :privmsg "ugq" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672202 :join "orhxcac" nil "i=stryyke1@ppp118-208-216-105.lns20.hba1.internode.on.net")
(3472672202 :privmsg "orhxcac" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672202 :privmsg "orhxcac" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672202 :quit "ugq" "Broken pipe" "i=stryyke1@ppp118-208-216-105.lns20.hba1.internode.on.net")
(3472672202 :quit "orhxcac" "Broken pipe" "i=stryyke1@ppp118-208-216-105.lns20.hba1.internode.on.net")
(3472672203 :join "wehzace" nil "i=stryyke1@ppp118-208-216-105.lns20.hba1.internode.on.net")
(3472672203 :privmsg "wehzace" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672203 :privmsg "wehzace" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672203 :quit "wehzace" "Broken pipe" "i=stryyke1@ppp118-208-216-105.lns20.hba1.internode.on.net")
(3472672209 :join "xgubzfswy" nil "n=ebsgpvx@slo13-3-88-186-199-8.fbx.proxad.net")
(3472672209 :privmsg "xgubzfswy" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672209 :privmsg "xgubzfswy" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672210 :privmsg "xgubzfswy" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672210 :quit "xgubzfswy" "K-lined" "n=ebsgpvx@slo13-3-88-186-199-8.fbx.proxad.net")
(3472672221 :privmsg "Modius" "At its core - what does a FASL do?  Does it represent just memory objects or does it represent load-time code as well?" nil)
(3472672237 :privmsg "tcr" "I wonder what makes people tick that way" nil)
(3472672238 :join "krrooyppgw" nil "n=wgbgfibb@88.238.179.200")
(3472672238 :privmsg "krrooyppgw" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672238 :privmsg "krrooyppgw" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281" nil)
(3472672239 :quit "krrooyppgw" "K-lined" "n=wgbgfibb@88.238.179.200")
(3472672239 :quit "kenanb" "K-lined" "n=kenanb@88.238.179.200")
(3472672271 :join "bigpresh" nil "n=bigpresh@freenode/sponsor/shellium.bigpresh")
(3472672274 :privmsg "tcr" "Modius: Both" nil)
(3472672283 :join "ruediger_" nil "n=quassel@93-82-1-161.adsl.highway.telekom.at")
(3472672295 :privmsg "Modius" "tcr:  How can I distinguish - is it a matter of eval-when compile vs not?" nil)
(3472672304 :quit "ruediger" "Nick collision from services." "n=quassel@93-82-7-85.adsl.highway.telekom.at")
(3472672447 :join "PovAddict" nil "n=nicolas@synecdoche/developer/povaddict")
(3472672477 :join "DarlaBoerup" nil "i=l0nqDjcD@pool-173-57-170-7.dllstx.fios.verizon.net")
(3472672485 :privmsg "tcr" "distinguish to what end?" nil)
(3472672506 :privmsg "rahul" "eval-when :compile-toplevel means that nothing goes into the fasl" nil)
(3472672531 :quit "xenosoz2" "Remote closed the connection" "n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr")
(3472672539 :join "lzgd" nil "n=ikpzn@89.180.223.150")
(3472672539 :privmsg "lzgd" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 irc.gnaa.fr #gnaa" nil)
(3472672539 :privmsg "lzgd" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 irc.gnaa.fr #gnaa" nil)
(3472672540 :privmsg "lzgd" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 irc.gnaa.fr #gnaa" nil)
(3472672540 :quit "lzgd" "K-lined" "n=ikpzn@89.180.223.150")
(3472672546 :mode "ChanServ" "+o Xach" "ChanServ@services.")
(3472672565 :join "xenosoz2" nil "n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr")
(3472672567 :join "asxwgnlva" nil "n=qndidav@5ad6b3eb.bb.sky.com")
(3472672567 :privmsg "asxwgnlva" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 irc.gnaa.fr #gnaa" nil)
(3472672567 :privmsg "asxwgnlva" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 irc.gnaa.fr #gnaa" nil)
(3472672568 :quit "asxwgnlva" "K-lined" "n=qndidav@5ad6b3eb.bb.sky.com")
(3472672581 :join "tkzwgvv" nil "n=olasffb@host-89-229-105-16.szczecin.mm.pl")
(3472672581 :privmsg "tkzwgvv" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 irc.gnaa.fr #gnaa" nil)
(3472672581 :privmsg "tkzwgvv" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 irc.gnaa.fr #gnaa" nil)
(3472672581 :quit "tkzwgvv" "Excess Flood" "n=olasffb@host-89-229-105-16.szczecin.mm.pl")
(3472672588 :join "iguhz" nil "n=obqcmgwb@host-89-229-105-16.szczecin.mm.pl")
(3472672588 :privmsg "iguhz" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 irc.gnaa.fr #gnaa" nil)
(3472672588 :privmsg "iguhz" "we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 irc.gnaa.fr #gnaa" nil)
(3472672589 :quit "iguhz" "K-lined" "n=obqcmgwb@host-89-229-105-16.szczecin.mm.pl")
(3472672614 :action "Adlai" "thinks it may be time for a +R" nil)
(3472672619 :privmsg "sykopomp" "^" nil)
(3472672623 :privmsg "Xach" "What's that do?" nil)
(3472672623 :privmsg "Modius" "tcr:  I'm deploying a lispworks EXE - I'd like some things to  be evaluated only after access to some flag (\"loading for deployment\") or something is true, vs at complie time of the original FASL, if possible." nil)
(3472672627 :privmsg "p_l" "o/" nil)
(3472672630 :privmsg "sykopomp" "Xach: only registered users may join #lisp" nil)
(3472672634 :privmsg "adeht" "ugh" nil)
(3472672635 :mode "Xach" "+R" "n=xach@unnamed.xach.com")
(3472672639 :privmsg "Adlai" "not quite" nil)
(3472672647 :privmsg "Adlai" "Xach, it means that unidentified users can't talk" nil)
(3472672655 :privmsg "tcr" "test" nil)
(3472672662 :privmsg "Adlai" "however, it sends a message to them, so real people can understand why they can't talk" nil)
(3472672683 :join "nwutmmazuu" nil "n=ygtpstuk@87-194-32-212.bethere.co.uk")
(3472672689 :join "lvitkmixkppr" nil "n=lfg@87-194-32-212.bethere.co.uk")
(3472672695 :quit "lvitkmixkppr" "K-lined" "n=lfg@87-194-32-212.bethere.co.uk")
(3472672695 :quit "nwutmmazuu" "K-lined" "n=ygtpstuk@87-194-32-212.bethere.co.uk")
(3472672698 :part "DarlaBoerup" nil "i=l0nqDjcD@pool-173-57-170-7.dllstx.fios.verizon.net")
(3472672702 :privmsg "rahul" "Modius: then execute it from your toplevel function" nil)
(3472672707 :privmsg "sykopomp" "Adlai: oh, wrong one, then." nil)
(3472672710 :quit "Patzy" "\"leaving\"" "n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net")
(3472672713 :join "xbtvu" nil "n=fkocmxua@0x5da06bc2.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.sbynqu1.customer.tele.dk")
(3472672716 :join "Patzy" nil "n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net")
(3472672717 :privmsg "Adlai" "sykopomp, you were thinking of +r" nil)
(3472672718 :privmsg "sykopomp" "but yeah, this seems to be doing the trick." nil)
(3472672720 :privmsg "p_l" "weird, freenode didn't identify me properly" nil)
(3472672722 :privmsg "sykopomp" "Adlai: yeah" nil)
(3472672724 :privmsg "rahul" "Modius: or do you mean when you're building the executable?" nil)
(3472672726 :privmsg "Modius" "rahul:  I don't fully understand what you mean - what function where?" nil)
(3472672735 :quit "xbtvu" "Broken pipe" "n=fkocmxua@0x5da06bc2.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.sbynqu1.customer.tele.dk")
(3472672744 :privmsg "Modius" "rahul:  I\"m building an executable - it will tend to use FASLs that I'd want to do different things depending on if there's a deploy build" nil)
(3472672746 :privmsg "rahul" "Modius: the function that you specify when creating the .exe..." nil)
(3472672767 :privmsg "rahul" "Modius: you want to have a past action depend on a future action?" nil)
(3472672779 :part "PovAddict" nil "n=nicolas@synecdoche/developer/povaddict")
(3472672781 :privmsg "rahul" "or do you want something special to happen when you launch from a .exe?" nil)
(3472672791 :privmsg "Modius" "rahul:  I'd like to do something like defvar before loading anything else, if THAT would override the defvar in a fasl" nil)
(3472672799 :join "qpwhfiroc" nil "n=zscdimxy@81.147.31.93")
(3472672799 :quit "qpwhfiroc" "Broken pipe" "n=zscdimxy@81.147.31.93")
(3472672801 :join "kue" nil "n=biyaxdxw@81.147.31.93")
(3472672801 :quit "kue" "Broken pipe" "n=biyaxdxw@81.147.31.93")
(3472672804 :privmsg "Modius" "(defvar mode t)   (load-everything-else) from the deploy script" nil)
(3472672806 :join "qiafzap" nil "n=oihll@81.147.31.93")
(3472672806 :quit "qiafzap" "Connection reset by peer" "n=oihll@81.147.31.93")
(3472672808 :privmsg "rahul" "Modius: I can't understand anything you're saying" nil)
(3472672845 :join "tqynvfhaok" nil "n=iofvlgko@cpc2-uddi8-0-0-cust812.uddi.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3472672846 :join "sgrooyccccf" nil "n=sbwcrre@cpc2-uddi8-0-0-cust812.uddi.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3472672846 :join "qegocuzbr" nil "n=ewmaunzs@cpc2-uddi8-0-0-cust812.uddi.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3472672847 :join "lintfzbzh" nil "n=tupvcna@cpc2-uddi8-0-0-cust812.uddi.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3472672858 :privmsg "rahul" "Modius: saying \"I want to use a hammer on a screw\" doesn't explain why you're using a hammer in the first place" nil)
(3472672864 :quit "sgrooyccccf" "K-lined" "n=sbwcrre@cpc2-uddi8-0-0-cust812.uddi.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3472672864 :quit "lintfzbzh" "K-lined" "n=tupvcna@cpc2-uddi8-0-0-cust812.uddi.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3472672864 :quit "qegocuzbr" "K-lined" "n=ewmaunzs@cpc2-uddi8-0-0-cust812.uddi.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3472672864 :quit "tqynvfhaok" "K-lined" "n=iofvlgko@cpc2-uddi8-0-0-cust812.uddi.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3472672874 :quit "xenosoz2" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr")
(3472672876 :privmsg "rahul" "you're explaining what you want to implement, not what you want to happen" nil)
(3472672906 :privmsg "rahul" "what actual effect are you trying to make?" nil)
(3472672907 :join "vwcgm" nil "n=wtoz@ppp118-209-102-251.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net")
(3472672907 :quit "vwcgm" "K-lined" "n=wtoz@ppp118-209-102-251.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net")
(3472672957 :join "xenosoz2" nil "n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr")
(3472672974 :join "trfqbbwxb" nil "n=tog@247.Red-88-17-245.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net")
(3472673001 :quit "trfqbbwxb" "K-lined" "n=tog@247.Red-88-17-245.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net")
(3472673011 :join "vwtrzeyogwk" nil "n=mfdkavx@219-90-186-11.ip.adam.com.au")
(3472673012 :quit "vwtrzeyogwk" "K-lined" "n=mfdkavx@219-90-186-11.ip.adam.com.au")
(3472673014 :join "flgcnfsricr" nil "n=tvlsytmp@adsl-074-237-058-203.sip.asm.bellsouth.net")
(3472673025 :join "hngbxpzftmbg" nil "n=xcrfgaga@pool-173-70-62-69.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net")
(3472673035 :quit "hngbxpzftmbg" "Connection reset by peer" "n=xcrfgaga@pool-173-70-62-69.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net")
(3472673039 :quit "flgcnfsricr" "Broken pipe" "n=tvlsytmp@adsl-074-237-058-203.sip.asm.bellsouth.net")
(3472673051 :join "arqhscwvumo" nil "n=uosudvyi@c-76-99-215-189.hsd1.nj.comcast.net")
(3472673051 :join "arvg" nil "n=opfac@c-76-99-215-189.hsd1.nj.comcast.net")
(3472673051 :join "oebwycuqbmv" nil "n=ktbtddbf@c-76-99-215-189.hsd1.nj.comcast.net")
(3472673054 :join "ygmflvzi" nil "n=nul@24-180-80-223.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com")
(3472673056 :join "iripwfayqnx" nil "n=aqzxpwfi@24-180-80-223.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com")
(3472673062 :join "opeee" nil "n=eedtwfba@201009035115.user.veloxzone.com.br")
(3472673062 :quit "opeee" "Broken pipe" "n=eedtwfba@201009035115.user.veloxzone.com.br")
(3472673062 :join "ytsl" nil "n=vzfp@cpe-74-65-95-15.stny.res.rr.com")
(3472673063 :quit "ytsl" "K-lined" "n=vzfp@cpe-74-65-95-15.stny.res.rr.com")
(3472673064 :quit "ygmflvzi" "Excess Flood" "n=nul@24-180-80-223.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com")
(3472673065 :quit "iripwfayqnx" "Excess Flood" "n=aqzxpwfi@24-180-80-223.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com")
(3472673069 :join "glwozyniuu" nil "n=miso@84.144.103.138")
(3472673072 :join "vnegbxo" nil "n=xmy@dpc6935177185.direcpc.com")
(3472673085 :quit "glwozyniuu" "K-lined" "n=miso@84.144.103.138")
(3472673087 :join "inlwvplnzfhu" nil "n=zaaryv@84-75-178-54.dclient.hispeed.ch")
(3472673088 :join "iymxo" nil "n=gstbouac@82-168-194-18.ip.telfort.nl")
(3472673091 :quit "inlwvplnzfhu" "K-lined" "n=zaaryv@84-75-178-54.dclient.hispeed.ch")
(3472673093 :join "rlrhilglay" nil "n=tpsnpaq@dpc6935177185.direcpc.com")
(3472673095 :join "chsgbcx" nil "n=bpmumo@82-168-194-18.ip.telfort.nl")
(3472673096 :join "ymztkrfwf" nil "n=xvbbzgd@82-168-194-18.ip.telfort.nl")
(3472673100 :join "exx" nil "n=qdoyntek@82-168-194-18.ip.telfort.nl")
(3472673101 :quit "exx" "K-lined" "n=qdoyntek@82-168-194-18.ip.telfort.nl")
(3472673101 :quit "iymxo" "K-lined" "n=gstbouac@82-168-194-18.ip.telfort.nl")
(3472673101 :quit "chsgbcx" "K-lined" "n=bpmumo@82-168-194-18.ip.telfort.nl")
(3472673101 :quit "ymztkrfwf" "K-lined" "n=xvbbzgd@82-168-194-18.ip.telfort.nl")
(3472673101 :join "wml" nil "n=emxm@f2128.upc-f.chello.nl")
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(3472673572 :quit "tcr" "Remote closed the connection" "n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de")
(3472673592 :part "weev" nil "n=tomato@locke.rains.net")
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(3472673700 :quit "prxq" "K-lined" "n=mommer@g226134045.adsl.alicedsl.de")
(3472673772 :quit "Khisanth" "Remote closed the connection" "n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net")
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(3472673882 :quit "b4|hraban" "\"Leaving\"" "n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl")
(3472673883 :join "macdice" nil "n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk")
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(3472674410 :join "prxq" nil "n=mommer@f051178118.adsl.alicedsl.de")
(3472674435 :privmsg "prxq" "what a fuckup" nil)
(3472674496 :join "chiiph" nil "n=chiiph@190.1.21.180")
(3472674515 :join "sepult" nil "n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-51.netcologne.de")
(3472674604 :privmsg "chiiph" "p_l: sorry to bother you... so, in your example for raytracer, I should run clisp -c raytracer.asd to build... right?" nil)
(3472674623 :join "jleija" nil "n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net")
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(3472674931 :quit "gruseom" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net")
(3472674954 :privmsg "timor" "how long does this k-line last?" nil)
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(3472675029 :part "quidnunc" nil "n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca")
(3472675045 :privmsg "prxq" "timor: no idea, but getting a new ip probably helps" nil)
(3472675087 :privmsg "timor" "prxq: is this now like a netsplit situation here?" nil)
(3472675106 :join "fractali`" nil "n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com")
(3472675139 :quit "knobo" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=user@ti0073a340-0817.bb.online.no")
(3472675205 :quit "reprore" "Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp")
(3472675344 :privmsg "Fade" "freenode starts to resemble efnet. :P" nil)
(3472675369 :part "addled" nil "n=adl@77.208.161.58")
(3472675371 :privmsg "prxq" "I wonder what the reason is" nil)
(3472675438 :privmsg "Fade" "there are enough people here to cause spammers and assclowns to concentrate on the network." nil)
(3472675442 :privmsg "prxq" "timor: it is not a netsplit, and I don't know what a 'similar' situation would look like" nil)
(3472675447 :quit "litherp2" "\"ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]\"" "n=piratman@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net")
(3472675564 :privmsg "p_l" "chiiph: nope, read asdf documentation for that - basically, link *.asd files to one of the directories mentioned in asdf:*central-registry* then use (asdf:load-system 'raytracer)" nil)
(3472675566 :privmsg "Fade" "in this case, it looks like javascript spam bots" nil)
(3472675593 :privmsg "Fade" "if the server messages are to be believed." nil)
(3472675632 :quit "jleija" "\"leaving\"" "n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net")
(3472675713 :privmsg "chiiph" "p_l: ok... but isn't there a way to quick-test the package?" nil)
(3472675730 :action "JohnnyL" "has cygwin. Where can I get a free dict word list?" nil)
(3472675769 :quit "Adrinael" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org")
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(3472676054 :part "lypanov" nil "n=lypanov@s5591e4de.adsl.wanadoo.nl")
(3472676093 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: from debian" nil)
(3472676104 :privmsg "rahul" ":P" nil)
(3472676110 :quit "Zephyrus" "Client Quit" "n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus")
(3472676125 :quit "mishoo" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=mishoo@79.112.112.195")
(3472676128 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: are you trying to get an online dictionary or what?" nil)
(3472676161 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "can a Lisp macro (or function?) access it's calling scope/code as well? maybe even modify it?" nil)
(3472676225 :privmsg "Adlai" "yep, play around with stuff like (let ((n 0)) (lambda () (incf n))) at the repl" nil)
(3472676247 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "um, how is that related?" nil)
(3472676266 :privmsg "Adlai" "oh, _calling_ scope. My bad >_>" nil)
(3472676275 :privmsg "RaceCondition" ":P" nil)
(3472676294 :quit "anton" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=Miranda@93.125.49.66")
(3472676298 :privmsg "Adlai" "setf expanders may be the type of thing you're looking for" nil)
(3472676317 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "I'm not looking for anything, I'm just exploring and getting familiar with Lisp :)" nil)
(3472676331 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "trying to get to know what, in general, I can do with it" nil)
(3472676335 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "(besides everything)" nil)
(3472676402 :privmsg "rahul" "well, incf does modify the n in the \"calling\" scope" nil)
(3472676414 :privmsg "rahul" "so yeah, setf expanders" nil)
(3472676431 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "well, I meant more like code" nil)
(3472676433 :privmsg "rahul" "define-modify-macro is the simplest way to do this" nil)
(3472676441 :privmsg "adeht" "the REPL's + is kinda like C's argv :)" nil)
(3472676455 :privmsg "adeht" "erm, -" nil)
(3472676516 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "(statement1) (statement2) (statement3 (my-macro)) (statement4) <-- can my-macro add code, say, BEFORE statement3? or maybe even before statement2?" nil)
(3472676528 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: no" nil)
(3472676530 :privmsg "Adlai" "no" nil)
(3472676535 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "never?" nil)
(3472676538 :privmsg "rahul" "never" nil)
(3472676549 :quit "prxq" "\"Leaving\"" "n=mommer@f051178118.adsl.alicedsl.de")
(3472676551 :privmsg "rahul" "evaluation in lisp is left to right" nil)
(3472676557 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "I thought there was a way to do, say, caller.getCode.insertStuffAt" nil)
(3472676565 :privmsg "rahul" "the evaluation rules can only be changed by a macro, within the macro's espansion" nil)
(3472676576 :privmsg "rahul" "what is a \"caller\"?" nil)
(3472676595 :privmsg "rahul" "macros are not \"called\", technically, they are expanded" nil)
(3472676611 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "well anyway, the point remains the same" nil)
(3472676625 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "I thought the compiler maybe passes more of the environmet to the macro for modification" nil)
(3472676632 :privmsg "rahul" "not for modification" nil)
(3472676647 :privmsg "rahul" "just to access stuff like local macro definitions" nil)
(3472676657 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "OK" nil)
(3472676693 :privmsg "rahul" "and the environment doesn't include the surrounding code, just information about what is defined in that surrounding code" nil)
(3472676904 :quit "cools" "Remote closed the connection" "n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com")
(3472677067 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "rahul I need a text format dictionary to extra words (for password creation)." nil)
(3472677077 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "rahul I am running windows, not linux." nil)
(3472677108 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: testing strength or creating combinations of words to create passwords?" nil)
(3472677128 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "rahul the later." nil)
(3472677183 :quit "nvoorhies" "Client Quit" "n=nvoorhie@166.205.139.91")
(3472677243 :quit "LiamH" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net")
(3472677273 :join "nvoorhies" nil "n=nvoorhie@166.205.139.91")
(3472677456 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: why is the default word list not enough for that?" nil)
(3472677496 :join "gruseom" nil "n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net")
(3472677580 :quit "macdice" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk")
(3472677604 :privmsg "rahul" "http://wordlist.sourceforge.net/" nil)
(3472677668 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "i couldn't find a dict in cygwin's /usr/share" nil)
(3472677703 :join "zelig" nil "n=zelig@189.60.42.13")
(3472677712 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "rahul wow, thanks." nil)
(3472677805 :quit "Athas``" "Remote closed the connection" "n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk")
(3472677828 :join "OmniMancer" nil "n=OmniManc@122-57-17-208.jetstream.xtra.co.nz")
(3472677830 :join "Adlai`" nil "n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai")
(3472677861 :quit "Adlai" "Nick collision from services." "n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai")
(3472677867 :nick "Adlai`" "Adlai" "n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai")
(3472678035 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: thank debian's dpkg -S command, combined with the corresponding package's description :)" nil)
(3472678116 :quit "milanj" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=milan@79.101.180.172")
(3472678389 :quit "carlocci" "\"eventually IE will rot and die\"" "n=nes@93.37.211.93")
(3472678490 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "rahul good tip. :)" nil)
(3472678578 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "i recently saw a game created in lisp where the footprint ram image was 74 megs. And it had at least a magnitude less features than a game from , say, 1985 (ultima iv), which was written <40k." nil)
(3472678660 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "1850 times bigger. thats crazy." nil)
(3472678661 :join "reprore_" nil "n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp")
(3472678662 :privmsg "p_l" "JohnnyL: When the game contains the whole compiler, debugger etc., then no shit sherlock :>" nil)
(3472678663 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "what does the 'p' stand for in 'equalp'?" nil)
(3472678673 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "RaceCondition predicate." nil)
(3472678686 :join "rdd``" nil "n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se")
(3472678704 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "p_l I suppose what's needed is a lisp to c source generator." nil)
(3472678721 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "JohnnyL: um... and how is 'predicate' related to coercing, say, a 3.0 and 3 so that they are equal?" nil)
(3472678752 :privmsg "Xach" "RaceCondition: \"P\" is a generic suffix." nil)
(3472678765 :privmsg "Xach" "RaceCondition: it's not specific to the particular coercion rules of equalp" nil)
(3472678767 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "RaceCondition I just gave you the definition. I didn't write it!" nil)
(3472678768 :join "redline6561" nil "n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net")
(3472678769 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: the equality operators are more and more lenient based on length of the name" nil)
(3472678774 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "Xach: yes, I know, I'm just trying to find out where it comes from \"ethymologically\" :)" nil)
(3472678793 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: then you'll need all of GCC as well." nil)
(3472678802 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "rahul i have it." nil)
(3472678806 :join "Guest48051" nil "n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net")
(3472678847 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "can any Lisp source file be compiled to a binary? or are there some restrictions as to what dynamic features can be used?" nil)
(3472678848 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "rahul Apart from all of the options, it's pretty good." nil)
(3472678864 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: ... but it adds 100MB to the \"game\"" nil)
(3472678877 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "rahul g++? or gcc?" nil)
(3472678879 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: all computer data is \"binary\"" nil)
(3472678889 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: gcc with all the dependencies" nil)
(3472678893 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "rahul the libs cost that much ram in g++?" nil)
(3472678897 :privmsg "rahul" "headers and all that" nil)
(3472678908 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: a very helpful answer indeed :P" nil)
(3472678908 :privmsg "p_l" "JohnnyL: what is needed is a good tree-shaker. Implementations that include such cost a lot" nil)
(3472678913 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: oh, so now we compare apples to oranges" nil)
(3472678927 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: the answer is a matter of perspective" nil)
(3472678931 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "headers are only for the linking and symbol references." nil)
(3472678943 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: a \"binary\" is just code that is interpreted by a different interpreter" nil)
(3472678968 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: so you're asking if lisp code can be translated into some other language without restriction" nil)
(3472678972 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: how should I have formulated my question for you to not find it incorrect or possible to interpret in an unwanted perspective? :P" nil)
(3472678989 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: how should I know what you really want to know?" nil)
(3472679002 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "nevermind" nil)
(3472679006 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: ... which is needed if you want to compile something" nil)
(3472679018 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "p_l yeah, if haskell can do it, i don't see why a lisp compiler can match or beat footprints or speed." nil)
(3472679032 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: haskell can't compile at run time" nil)
(3472679036 :join "dlowe" nil "n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net")
(3472679049 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "rahul thats not my concern." nil)
(3472679059 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: haskell can't do anything in question here" nil)
(3472679073 :privmsg "Ralith" "rahul: surely whatever analysis need be performed can at worst-case be fully reexecuted for each call to compile." nil)
(3472679076 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: well, you're comparing disk footprint of a compiler with that of not-a-compiler" nil)
(3472679077 :privmsg "p_l" "JohnnyL: GHC doesn't compile at run time unless you include the whole compiler, plus it has strict typechecking, which makes it easier to tree-shake due to lack of ambiguity" nil)
(3472679100 :privmsg "Ralith" "oh he's talking about binary size" nil)
(3472679103 :privmsg "Ralith" "who cares about binary size?" nil)
(3472679103 :privmsg "rahul" "Ralith: analysis of what?" nil)
(3472679108 :privmsg "rahul" "Ralith: newbies :)" nil)
(3472679109 :privmsg "Ralith" "rahul: nvm, didn't have context" nil)
(3472679117 :privmsg "rahul" "yeah" nil)
(3472679139 :action "p_l" "cares about binary sizes, because he might have few projects where small binaries will be necessary. But he already knows how to get them :D" nil)
(3472679140 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: more importantly, it doesn't allow dynamic redefinition" nil)
(3472679145 :quit "abugosh" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=Adium@65-78-105-20.c3-0.drf-ubr1.atw-drf.pa.cable.rcn.com")
(3472679151 :action "dlowe" "pokes lisppaste" nil)
(3472679159 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: but if it did, you'd need the entire compiler at run time" nil)
(3472679178 :privmsg "p_l" "JohnnyL: GHC in the form to run a program with dynamic redefinition can easily trump SBCL in size" nil)
(3472679179 :privmsg "redline6561" "Jumping in without knowing what I've missed but, JohnnyL if it's small binaries you're concerned with you might be interested in ECL." nil)
(3472679179 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: and then it would take up RAM" nil)
(3472679179 :privmsg "dlowe" "code snippet - is this a totally insane way to do this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/93522" nil)
(3472679180 :privmsg "Ralith" "JohnnyL: you have to realize that while SBCL's hello world might be orders of magnitude larger than C's, 30MB is *nothing* for a modern computer.  Most large apps will have several times that at least in data, making the binary insignificant." nil)
(3472679183 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "thats not my concern, i'm talking of a compiler that produces an c obj file." nil)
(3472679203 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "Ralith that doesn't make it good. :)" nil)
(3472679214 :privmsg "Ralith" "JohnnyL: it makes it \"not bad.\"" nil)
(3472679231 :privmsg "Ralith" "it means it's something you have no reason to care about" nil)
(3472679233 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: so you mean a compiler that uses a 60s linker?" nil)
(3472679237 :privmsg "dlowe" "unless you're working on embedded systems" nil)
(3472679266 :privmsg "p_l" "JohnnyL: In order to get the same functionality, in Haskell with GHC, I have to include 10x more code" nil)
(3472679274 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: the only thing that is unique about c object files is that they can't be dynamically redefined only dynamically linked" nil)
(3472679286 :join "xan-afk" nil "n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi")
(3472679297 :privmsg "p_l" "I have a difference of SBCL = ~70MB and GHC = ~700 MB" nil)
(3472679306 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "rahul speed and footprint over mega useless interpreter footprint. yeah." nil)
(3472679307 :privmsg "Ralith" "I would love to use a subset of CL for targeting AVRs" nil)
(3472679309 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: so you'd need to write your own linker on top of the 100MB for gcc" nil)
(3472679320 :privmsg "Ralith" "but I'm not sure that's feasible" nil)
(3472679327 :privmsg "Ralith" "especially since my code needs to be more or less hard realtime" nil)
(3472679340 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: do you know what an interpreter is?" nil)
(3472679342 :privmsg "p_l" "JohnnyL: I haven't used interpreted CL except for short play with clisp and testing ECL internals" nil)
(3472679354 :quit "timor" "Remote closed the connection" "n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de")
(3472679360 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "anyway, Lisp is bo" nil)
(3472679364 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "anyway, Lisp is not bad." nil)
(3472679374 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: and do you understand how operating systems work as far as memory-mapped files?" nil)
(3472679379 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "It just needs an option for compiling to native code." nil)
(3472679384 :privmsg "rahul" "haha" nil)
(3472679386 :privmsg "Ralith" "hehehehe" nil)
(3472679392 :join "Billy_Mayes" nil "n=Oranguta@64.134.233.103")
(3472679392 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: when didn't it have one?" nil)
(3472679395 :join "ltyphair" nil "n=user@ppp-70-244-203-179.dsl.austtx.swbell.net")
(3472679405 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: the interpreter came later." nil)
(3472679406 :privmsg "p_l" "JohnnyL: every important implementation used by denizens of this channel by default compiles to native code with exception of ABCL :D" nil)
(3472679420 :join "leo2007" nil "n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3472679426 :privmsg "p_l" "and ABCL uses JIT (clisp is a minority.. :P)" nil)
(3472679433 :quit "nvoorhies" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=nvoorhie@166.205.139.91")
(3472679446 :quit "Odin-" nil "n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is")
(3472679452 :quit "reprore_" "Remote closed the connection" "n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp")
(3472679457 :join "[1]Beetny" nil "n=Beetny@ppp121-45-54-127.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net")
(3472679469 :privmsg "p_l" "and iirc, part of the reason why clisp is an interpreter was because of memory constraints etc." nil)
(3472679470 :quit "Beetny" "Read error: 113 (No route to host)" "n=Beetny@ppp121-45-54-127.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net")
(3472679482 :part "Billy_Mayes" nil "n=Oranguta@64.134.233.103")
(3472679497 :quit "mrSpec" nil "n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec")
(3472679506 :privmsg "rahul" "it wasn't because they needed something to interpret the comments from German into English?" nil)
(3472679509 :action "rahul" "ducks" nil)
(3472679526 :privmsg "dlowe" "ah, well. never mind. I guess I'll work with it" nil)
(3472679568 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "I think though that Python saves a bit of typing compared to Lisp. () becomes : . Python has functional features like Lisp. I have no idea why I would want to use Lisp over Python, perhaps because Lisp is a bit faster? anyway." nil)
(3472679576 :privmsg "p_l" "JohnnyL: btw, ECL takes ~7MB for both runtime and compiler (it requires a C compiler for native code compiling, though). It can produce very small binaries" nil)
(3472679578 :privmsg "rahul" "      (\"criminal\" (lambda (ch) (criminalp ch)))" nil)
(3472679586 :privmsg "rahul" "why not just #'criminal..." nil)
(3472679604 :privmsg "Ralith" "p" nil)
(3472679622 :privmsg "p_l" "JohnnyL: two things - CLOS/MOP & Macros" nil)
(3472679635 :privmsg "Ralith" "syntax too" nil)
(3472679638 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "Yeah, I don't know if Macros are all too great." nil)
(3472679639 :privmsg "Ralith" "and editor support" nil)
(3472679646 :privmsg "Ralith" "hah" nil)
(3472679661 :privmsg "rahul" "dlowe: but it seems like a reasonable way to implement it" nil)
(3472679666 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "Like in c++ you have overloading of operators. It just leads to big question marks if you add new employees." nil)
(3472679668 :privmsg "rahul" "if I understand what it is" nil)
(3472679678 :privmsg "p_l" "JohnnyL: I'll tell you, that even for a very simple project macros were great. Definitely saved me a lot of typing that would require comments to be understandable" nil)
(3472679693 :quit "rdd`" "Connection timed out" "n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se")
(3472679701 :privmsg "Ralith" "JohnnyL: well-written macros tend to drastically increase readability." nil)
(3472679707 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: macros help separate concerns so new employees don't have to learn 1000 patterns before they can write one line of code" nil)
(3472679720 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: and operator overloading has nothing to do with this" nil)
(3472679726 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "Ralith If you look at the actual macro, it does not." nil)
(3472679741 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "rahul predictably , no." nil)
(3472679744 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: operator overloading is object orientation forced into a fixed namespace" nil)
(3472679776 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "rahul in fact c++ operators change the way the context's symbols are interpreted." nil)
(3472679801 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "as does Lisp's symbols." nil)
(3472679802 :privmsg "p_l" "Java programmer sees \"concept\" and thinks \"Great! I'll use Design Pattern x, y & z!\". Lisper sees a pattern and thinks \"Shit, patterns, let's make them into macros so that they take one line instead of 15k across 40 modules\"" nil)
(3472679806 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: that's the case for ANY syntax in C++" nil)
(3472679813 :privmsg "dmiles_afk" "its easy to write hard to understand code in every language" nil)
(3472679819 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: and no, macros do not change the way the context's symbols are interpreted" nil)
(3472679821 :privmsg "Ralith" "JohnnyL: in fact, it does." nil)
(3472679829 :action "JohnnyL" "waves to dmiles_afk. ltns!" nil)
(3472679832 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: they change the way the CONTENT's symobls are interpreted" nil)
(3472679862 :privmsg "dmiles_afk" "hi JohnnyL :) .. i looked in here cuz someone said \"ABCL\"" nil)
(3472679869 :privmsg "pkhuong" "JohnnyL: how long have you been hanging around here?" nil)
(3472679870 :privmsg "dlowe" "rahul: thanks for the quick review. I'm basically back-chaining lambdas together" nil)
(3472679879 :part "ltyphair" nil "n=user@ppp-70-244-203-179.dsl.austtx.swbell.net")
(3472679880 :privmsg "p_l" "dmiles_afk: that would be me, insinuating that ABCL is more used/useful than clisp :)" nil)
(3472679905 :privmsg "pkhuong" "Why have you been unable to develop an articulated opinion in all that time?" nil)
(3472679906 :privmsg "rahul" "dlowe: right" nil)
(3472679913 :privmsg "rahul" "dlowe: kind of like cl-ppcre does" nil)
(3472679917 :privmsg "dmiles_afk" "p_l: i think it is indded.. and a benchmark i did the otehr month shows ABCL can be alot faster than clisp at things" nil)
(3472679928 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "pkhuong why do you want to ask what's going outside of #lisp? <snickers>" nil)
(3472679928 :quit "redline6561" "\"Leaving.\"" "n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net")
(3472679932 :privmsg "dlowe" "rahul: ok, glad to hear I'm not as crazy as it seems" nil)
(3472679937 :quit "Guest48051" "Client Quit" "n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net")
(3472679943 :join "Khisanth" nil "n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net")
(3472679956 :privmsg "fractali`" "Anyone know of any good examples for doing very simple server programming with Lisp (eg: echo server, time server, etc..)" nil)
(3472679960 :privmsg "p_l" "dmiles_afk: yeah, someone should put new benchmarks at cliki... (Seriously, #lisp should overtake lisp.org domain and put something better)" nil)
(3472679983 :privmsg "Ralith" "fractali`: don't know any examples, but usocket is probably where to start." nil)
(3472679983 :privmsg "rahul" "lisp.org is the ALU" nil)
(3472679994 :privmsg "p_l" "rahul: I know" nil)
(3472680001 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "so macros are the only thing that Lisp has over Python?" nil)
(3472680009 :privmsg "rahul" "so if you want to become involved in the ALU, go for it" nil)
(3472680017 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: yes, so please leave" nil)
(3472680027 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: macros are the only thing that matters" nil)
(3472680032 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "?!" nil)
(3472680038 :privmsg "rahul" "it's like the difference between regex and parsing." nil)
(3472680040 :privmsg "dmiles_afk" "crzuy i am runing some bechmarks on cyc ATM: C=2.6 @ 1.4g,  Allegro=1.9 @ 2.4g,  Java= 11.6 @ 3.6g" nil)
(3472680041 :privmsg "p_l" "JohnnyL: no, but they are visible from the outside without delving into details that might seriously differ between implementations etc. Language advocacy is a tricky subject" nil)
(3472680074 :quit "ivan4th" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=ivan4th@212.1.228.48")
(3472680086 :privmsg "dmiles_afk" "X @ Y .. X = bigger number = faster , Y = basic RAM it used" nil)
(3472680099 :privmsg "rahul" "dmiles_afk: tried sbcl?" nil)
(3472680109 :privmsg "rahul" "or has it not been fully ported yet?" nil)
(3472680115 :privmsg "dmiles_afk" "not fully ported" nil)
(3472680118 :privmsg "rahul" "and if not, what does it use that's not ANSI?" nil)
(3472680130 :privmsg "dmiles_afk" "#+Allegro" nil)
(3472680135 :privmsg "dmiles_afk" ":(" nil)
(3472680150 :privmsg "rahul" "dmiles_afk: for what stuff?" nil)
(3472680153 :quit "konr" "Remote closed the connection" "n=user@189.98.83.62")
(3472680156 :join "konr`" nil "n=user@189.98.83.62")
(3472680165 :privmsg "rahul" "i.e., what's after #+allegro?" nil)
(3472680172 :action "dmiles_afk" "find a couple" nil)
(3472680174 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "in Python, caller decides whether arguments are passed by position or name. is anything like that possible in Lisp? (defun foo (x) ...) and (foo 4) or (foo :x 4) (which is normal in Python)" nil)
(3472680184 :privmsg "kpreid" "RaceCondition: no" nil)
(3472680193 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "OK" nil)
(3472680202 :privmsg "rahul" "well, it's POSSIBLE" nil)
(3472680221 :privmsg "rahul" "except for cases where it's ambiguous" nil)
(3472680229 :privmsg "rahul" "since anything at all can be a keyword" nil)
(3472680247 :privmsg "Ralith" "it's not standard, though" nil)
(3472680249 :privmsg "kpreid" "RaceCondition: in Python there are actually two bins for arguments (thus the (*args, **kwargs) when you're writing forwarders); in Lisp, there is only a single list of arguments, and it is up to the callee to interpret them." nil)
(3472680251 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "what about my example with foo(x)?" nil)
(3472680270 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: for a single arg, it's doable" nil)
(3472680277 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "kpreid: in Python, if you have def foo(x), x can be passed either way" nil)
(3472680279 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: but useless" nil)
(3472680279 :privmsg "Ralith" "it could be achieved fairly easily with a macro wrapping defun, couldn't it?" nil)
(3472680282 :privmsg "dmiles_afk" "rahul: right now a little too much is .. sometimes a basdic funcall is" nil)
(3472680287 :join "ivan4th" nil "n=ivan4th@212.1.228.48")
(3472680289 :privmsg "rahul" "dmiles_afk: odd" nil)
(3472680296 :privmsg "kpreid" "RaceCondition: yes. I did not contradict that." nil)
(3472680304 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "kpreid: oh, ok" nil)
(3472680311 :quit "Joreji" "Read error: 113 (No route to host)" "n=thomas@134.61.80.139")
(3472680313 :privmsg "dmiles_afk" "rahul: about 10% aof applicatbel at most" nil)
(3472680320 :privmsg "rahul" "Ralith: sure, for the cases where it's possible to tell what is a keyword and what is not" nil)
(3472680323 :privmsg "fractali`" "Ralith: Thanks, I'm using SBCL but figured usocket was the way to go instead of trying to use sbcl's internal sb-bsd-socket." nil)
(3472680330 :privmsg "dmiles_afk" "rahul: they more mean #+IsARealLisp" nil)
(3472680343 :privmsg "pkhuong" "fractali`: it's not internal." nil)
(3472680346 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "kpreid: but I see your point, yes: in lisp, even keyword arguments are \"positional\" arguments, they just come in doubles :)" nil)
(3472680348 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "so I get the point" nil)
(3472680359 :privmsg "rahul" "dmiles_afk: oh, ok... so most of it can probably be #+(or sbcl allegro)" nil)
(3472680373 :privmsg "dmiles_afk" "rahul: indeed." nil)
(3472680383 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: no, they're not positional" nil)
(3472680397 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: however anything at all can be the name" nil)
(3472680399 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: they are together in the same list as positional ones, that's what I meant" nil)
(3472680408 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: ok, right" nil)
(3472680417 :privmsg "kpreid" "RaceCondition: in Python the caller specifies whether something is a keyword or positional argument (at the syntactic level, using '='; at the protocol level, whether it's in args or kwargs); so the callee gets to use this information. In Common Lisp the information does not exist" nil)
(3472680419 :privmsg "dmiles_afk" "rahul: but there is still excl::<stuff>  to be anoying" nil)
(3472680434 :privmsg "rahul" "dmiles_afk: right, that's the non-ansi stuff" nil)
(3472680437 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "kpreid: yes, that's what I think I just said :P" nil)
(3472680454 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "in a more newbie manner of course" nil)
(3472680576 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "kpreid: but theoretically speaking, I could use (foo :x = 3) or even (foo x = 3) in Lisp as well, no?" nil)
(3472680592 :join "legumbre_" nil "n=leo@r190-135-1-175.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy")
(3472680608 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: well, you'd get undefined variable for =" nil)
(3472680627 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: I mean, theoretically" nil)
(3472680639 :privmsg "kpreid" "RaceCondition: = would have to evaluate to some object which does not ever otherwise occur in an arglist" nil)
(3472680655 :privmsg "kpreid" "so if you want that to work in general, uh, how do you write the code for working with the = object?" nil)
(3472680660 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "kpreid: OK maybe := or '= then" nil)
(3472680670 :privmsg "kpreid" "doesn't matter. it's still a magic value" nil)
(3472680671 :privmsg "rahul" "no, those can easily occur in arglists" nil)
(3472680689 :privmsg "rahul" "(foo x := :=)" nil)
(3472680763 :quit "kloeri" "Remote closed the connection" "i=kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri")
(3472680765 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: seriously, this feature is really not as good as you think it is" nil)
(3472680783 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: I didn't say I thought it was good :P" nil)
(3472680785 :privmsg "rahul" "it creates a lot of ambiguity" nil)
(3472680786 :privmsg "rahul" "heh" nil)
(3472680798 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "I'm just wondering... learning by (theoretical) experiment" nil)
(3472680861 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "p_l GHC does *not* take up a 700MB RAM footprint. I'm not sure where you are getting this arbitrary information from." nil)
(3472680929 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "(defun foo (x nil) (y nil) &key z w) ...) how would Lisp evaluate (foo :z 3)?" nil)
(3472680931 :privmsg "p_l" "JohnnyL: I stated the footprint on disk... effective code loaded to ram isn't that much as well for SBCl" nil)
(3472680946 :privmsg "kpreid" "rahul: btw, it's not true that anything at all can be a keyword-argument-keyword. they have to be symbols (per 3.4.1.4)" nil)
(3472680951 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "It's about 24 megs of ram on my machine (with standard prelude + nothing else)." nil)
(3472680964 :privmsg "kpreid" "and at least one lisp implementation I've met enforces this" nil)
(3472680968 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "p_l we weren't talking footprint on disk. Who cares about that." nil)
(3472680972 :quit "[1]Beetny" "Excess Flood" "n=Beetny@ppp121-45-54-127.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net")
(3472680972 :quit "stepnem" "Excess Flood" "n=stepnem@88.103.132.186")
(3472680972 :quit "clog" "Excess Flood" "n=nef@bespin.org")
(3472680976 :quit "kpreid" "Excess Flood" "n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com")
(3472680983 :join "clog" nil "n=nef@bespin.org")
(3472680986 :quit "clog" "Excess Flood" "n=nef@bespin.org")
(3472680987 :quit "skeptomai|awa-" "Excess Flood" "n=nnnnnnnc@71.227.156.96")
(3472680990 :join "stepnem" nil "n=stepnem@88.103.132.186")
(3472680995 :join "clog" nil "n=nef@bespin.org")
(3472680997 :quit "coyo" "Excess Flood" "n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net")
(3472681000 :join "milanj" nil "n=milan@79.101.180.172")
(3472681013 :join "coyo" nil "n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net")
(3472681019 :join "skeptomai|awa-" nil "n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net")
(3472681022 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "looks like someone is 'clog-hopping' <snickers>" nil)
(3472681024 :join "Beetny" nil "n=Beetny@ppp121-45-54-127.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net")
(3472681056 :quit "pemryan" "Excess Flood" "n=pem@159.226.35.246")
(3472681067 :privmsg "rahul" "ah, didn't know they needed to be keywords, but I wouldn't use anything else myself" nil)
(3472681074 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "ah, damn, it wasn't even valid Lisp" nil)
(3472681082 :join "pemryan" nil "n=pem@159.226.35.246")
(3472681097 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: yeah. I have no clue what that is" nil)
(3472681111 :quit "legumbre" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=leo@r190-135-36-52.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy")
(3472681120 :privmsg "rahul" "if you mean &optional x y &key z w, then you've hit something that is highly frowned upon" nil)
(3472681131 :privmsg "rahul" "combining &optional and &key is bad bad" nil)
(3472681162 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "rahul gcc is a compiler, it does not take up 100MBs of RAM for someone to write 'Hello World' to their terminal." nil)
(3472681195 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "funny though how you mentioned linker from the 60's. I know that Lisp predates c by about 10 years or so." nil)
(3472681211 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: exactly" nil)
(3472681220 :privmsg "_3b__" "JohnnyL: so don't use SBCL? or pay someone to fix what you don't liek about it?" nil)
(3472681237 :quit "Adamant" "Excess Flood" "n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant")
(3472681239 :quit "mattrepl" "Excess Flood" "n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net")
(3472681241 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: and it does not take 30 MB RAM for hello world in lisp either" nil)
(3472681249 :join "kpreid" nil "n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com")
(3472681254 :privmsg "rahul" "_3b__: no, he's just assuming that his OS is a piece of crap" nil)
(3472681263 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: yeah, just saw the style warnings" nil)
(3472681294 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: it took till the 70s for lisp linking to really be both efficient and correct at the same time" nil)
(3472681321 :join "Adamant" nil "n=Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net")
(3472681330 :quit "pavelludiq" "Remote closed the connection" "n=quassel@83.222.166.125")
(3472681336 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "_3b__ as in AT&T 3b? Well, writing an eval/linked lists is easy enough. It's done in Abuse! :) But if something like Python or an existing Lisp can do it better than I'm game." nil)
(3472681358 :privmsg "_3b__" "heh, i was going to say i can compile a tiny hello world in flash... but then i loaded it into the debug player and RES is 42MB :p" nil)
(3472681362 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "rahul yeah, early lisp was almost as scary as commodore 64 basic v2." nil)
(3472681368 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "10 goto 10" nil)
(3472681371 :part "zelig" nil "n=zelig@189.60.42.13")
(3472681371 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "^ ahhhhhhhhh" nil)
(3472681381 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "or rather 10 GOTO 10" nil)
(3472681382 :privmsg "Fade" "er.." nil)
(3472681383 :privmsg "_3b__" "JohnnyL: at&t? not that i know of" nil)
(3472681387 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "sorry, I forgot the annoying caps." nil)
(3472681411 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "_3b__ My buddy had an AT&T 3B, it was a sweet unix mainframe." nil)
(3472681421 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "This was back in 1989. :)" nil)
(3472681444 :privmsg "_3b__" "JohnnyL: try ccl, corman, clisp, ecl, acl, probably pretty much anything else besides cmucl will be smaller than sbcl for hello world :p" nil)
(3472681464 :privmsg "p_l" "JohnnyL: complete compiler, profiler etc. on my machine takes ~50MB of RAM. That's assuming everything is loaded. And that's SBCL, (in)famous for its huge core images" nil)
(3472681469 :privmsg "_3b__" "sbcl cares about speed, and not size... so it is fast but takes up some space" nil)
(3472681486 :privmsg "p_l" "ECL otoh takes around 7MB" nil)
(3472681488 :privmsg "_3b__" "or grab one of the old DOS CLs, those should run in a few MB easily :)" nil)
(3472681507 :nick "_3b__" "_3b" "i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com")
(3472681508 :privmsg "Adlai" "use the VxWorks port of CCL" nil)
(3472681514 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "p_l yeah, i don't really want to program in c/c++ but it's one of the few languages that can keep up with OpenGL." nil)
(3472681538 :privmsg "rahul" "\"keep up with\"?" nil)
(3472681550 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "yes." nil)
(3472681553 :privmsg "_3b" "so write better OpenGL code :p" nil)
(3472681564 :privmsg "rahul" "I guess all those openGL programs in lisp are figments of the universe's imagination" nil)
(3472681570 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "Keep up with the (state machine)." nil)
(3472681579 :privmsg "_3b" "if host language matters, you are wasting GPU time anyway" nil)
(3472681611 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "rahul i have yet to try any of them." nil)
(3472681618 :quit "milanj" "\"Leaving\"" "n=milan@79.101.180.172")
(3472681641 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "is SBCL generally a superset of CMUCL?" nil)
(3472681647 :privmsg "_3b" "RaceCondition: no" nil)
(3472681651 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "I'm sure the garbage collection makes it puke every so often." nil)
(3472681657 :quit "djinni`" "K-lined" "n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com")
(3472681675 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "_3b: I read that in CMUCL it is possible to declare types, i.e. do static typing (to some extent). not so in SBCL?" nil)
(3472681679 :join "jpbarrette" nil "n=jpbarret@modemcable098.216-23-96.mc.videotron.ca")
(3472681688 :privmsg "_3b" "RaceCondition: some features were dropped (some of those reimplemented differently later), some things were added to cmucl after the fork" nil)
(3472681708 :privmsg "_3b" "RaceCondition: the type inference stuff is still there" nil)
(3472681747 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "_3b: OK, cool, is it considered an \"advanced\" feature or does it kick in immediately?" nil)
(3472681748 :privmsg "p_l" "RaceCondition: typing is part of ANSI CL spec, it's just not necessarily implemented in compiler" nil)
(3472681757 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "oh, OK" nil)
(3472681778 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "I'm just wondering if SBCL has been doing type inference and type validation already without me knowing it" nil)
(3472681786 :privmsg "Ralith" "probably" nil)
(3472681787 :join "kloeri" nil "i=kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri")
(3472681788 :privmsg "p_l" "RaceCondition: and type inference is enabled by default in SBCL, when you start compiling with optimization for speed settings it starts complaining about types it couldn't infer" nil)
(3472681789 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "cool" nil)
(3472681799 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: I see, so if you haven't used something, then it must be impossible" nil)
(3472681818 :quit "rdd``" "Remote closed the connection" "n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se")
(3472681831 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "rahul thats a statement i don't take note of." nil)
(3472681834 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: not everyone is dumb. other people know how to write correct code, even if you can't..." nil)
(3472681849 :privmsg "_3b" "JohnnyL: for that matter, javascript can even run GL decently these days :p" nil)
(3472681875 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "it's not a matter of being dumb rather that of being robost and mature. (with no hiccups like in Java based GL apps)" nil)
(3472681878 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "p_l: but does it also happen in an interactive REPL? I just did (defun x () 1) (defun y () \"1\") and defun (defun z () (+ (x) (z))) and it didn't complain" nil)
(3472681886 :privmsg "rahul" "hah" nil)
(3472681900 :quit "svaksha0" "Client Quit" "n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org")
(3472681902 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: well, java programmers are dumb :)" nil)
(3472681907 :privmsg "p_l" "RaceCondition: because you didn't setup (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0)) etc. ;-)" nil)
(3472681908 :privmsg "Fade" "what exactly is the point of this conversation?" nil)
(3472681909 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: so no wonder they can't write correct code" nil)
(3472681911 :privmsg "Fade" "jfc." nil)
(3472681912 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "_3B, If you go on Dr Dobbs site, their main pages in JS will make firefox crawl." nil)
(3472681926 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "p_l: OK, I'll try with that" nil)
(3472681929 :privmsg "soupdragon" "I can write correct java code" nil)
(3472681934 :quit "saikatc" nil "n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net")
(3472681935 :privmsg "soupdragon" "just give me 1000x longer" nil)
(3472681943 :privmsg "_3b" "JohnnyL: i can write slow code in c/c++ too, so?" nil)
(3472681962 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "p_l: wait, so safety=3 means less type checks? how come? :D" nil)
(3472681981 :privmsg "p_l" "RaceCondition: no, safety 3 means lots of safety" nil)
(3472681988 :quit "fiveop" "\"humhum\"" "n=fiveop@g229175223.adsl.alicedsl.de")
(3472681988 :privmsg "_3b" "RaceCondition: the type inference is usually within functions, since it can't do as much for normal calls, since you could redefine the function" nil)
(3472681990 :privmsg "p_l" "safety 0 tries to remove type checks etc." nil)
(3472682019 :privmsg "Ralith" "_3b: why not just re-infer all relevant code when a function is redefined?" nil)
(3472682025 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "p_l: oh, so type inference is mostly to optimize out duck typing related inefficiencies, not for static validation?" nil)
(3472682029 :privmsg "_3b" "RaceCondition: for example you could redefine y before calling z and it would work (assuming z called y instead of itself)" nil)
(3472682054 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "_3b: but if I compile x, y and z all in one go, that wouldn't apply, would it?" nil)
(3472682060 :privmsg "_3b" "Ralith: ok, 'it is too lazy to' rather than 'it can't' :p" nil)
(3472682078 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: no, compiling all in one go doesn't really matter" nil)
(3472682094 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "_3b i have seen an entire JS engine for a NES emulator at realtime on a 3 GigHrtz machine. Twas a small size however it was sweet and responsive. (robust if you had a shrunken human head)" nil)
(3472682097 :privmsg "_3b" "RaceCondition: sbcl treats type declarations as assertions under normal settings, so it is sort of like static typing" nil)
(3472682101 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: this is the 70's linker technology that JohnnyL is unfamiliar with" nil)
(3472682118 :privmsg "Ralith" "_3b: :P" nil)
(3472682122 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: 60s tech replaces references at link time" nil)
(3472682131 :privmsg "_3b" "JohnnyL: yeah, saw that :)" nil)
(3472682134 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: 70s tech resolves references via a table" nil)
(3472682150 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: and 80s and 90s and 00s?" nil)
(3472682159 :privmsg "p_l" "there are also some compilers that allow you to remove redefining abilities while dumping image, so after running tree shaker you get a small app :D" nil)
(3472682161 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: nothing new" nil)
(3472682164 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "rahul Why are you flinging your own insecurities on me? :p" nil)
(3472682171 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: mine?" nil)
(3472682180 :privmsg "Ralith" "JohnnyL: wat" nil)
(3472682189 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: you're the one who thinks that your OS is dumb" nil)
(3472682195 :privmsg "Ralith" "among other silly things" nil)
(3472682197 :privmsg "_3b" "RaceCondition: for things compiled all at once, it is allowed to do that sort of optimization, so it might complain if you put ll 3 defs in a WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT form" nil)
(3472682198 :privmsg "rahul" "I know what uses RAM and what doesn't" nil)
(3472682212 :privmsg "rahul" "you assume that your OS designer is only as smart as you are" nil)
(3472682219 :privmsg "_3b" "isn't the new linker tech linktime inlining/recompilation stuff?" nil)
(3472682238 :privmsg "rahul" "_3b: dynamic recompilation... I guess that's 90s" nil)
(3472682268 :privmsg "jpbarrette" "Is there anyone who could tell me how with cffi to get access to an C external variable? I'm playing with python C API and I want to access to global PyObject * Py_False pointer" nil)
(3472682273 :privmsg "p_l" "_3b: new linker stuff is a very advanced variant of the old one, which might also use profiling data to better locate positions" nil)
(3472682282 :privmsg "_3b" "p_l: that too" nil)
(3472682347 :quit "ruediger_" "Remote closed the connection" "n=quassel@93-82-1-161.adsl.highway.telekom.at")
(3472682374 :privmsg "jpbarrette" "I don't see in the documentation how to do that." nil)
(3472682379 :privmsg "jpbarrette" "I'm missing something" nil)
(3472682412 :privmsg "fe[nl]ix" "jpbarrette: http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/defcvar.html#defcvar" nil)
(3472682463 :privmsg "jpbarrette" "thank you very much. I really don't know how I missed that." nil)
(3472682506 :privmsg "p_l" "jpbarrette: you can also always grab a pointer (and work from there) with foreign-symbol-pointer" nil)
(3472682513 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "My beef isn't really with OS designers (who I feel bad for) but the poor souls who write everything from scratch when it's already there and tight (robust+loosely coupled). I can't see writing in C++ high level code, taking<1mb of RAM )(not 100mb)but I also can't see using a slow scripting engine taking 70mb/slow response time with easier coding/testing time/etc. I suppose it's all a tradeoff." nil)
(3472682518 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "I am just contemplating the ifs." nil)
(3472682523 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "at this point" nil)
(3472682571 :privmsg "p_l" "JohnnyL: the big implementations (of CL) are the ones that compile everything to native code" nil)
(3472682582 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: so get the best of both worlds with lisp" nil)
(3472682591 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "thats the trade off, cash." nil)
(3472682599 :privmsg "p_l" "a big part of SBCL's memory footprint is the compiler, which at the moment is nearly unremovable" nil)
(3472682601 :privmsg "rahul" "and stop assuming that everyone else is dumber than you and hasn't figured out the problems" nil)
(3472682610 :privmsg "rahul" "cash?" nil)
(3472682626 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: who convinced you to pay for sbcl?" nil)
(3472682642 :privmsg "rahul" "p_l: but it isn't in RAM if you don't use it" nil)
(3472682647 :privmsg "p_l" "most people here don't have to deal with small binaries because they are writing server-side code. Those that do, either pay big money for ACL/LW or use ECL" nil)
(3472682650 :privmsg "rahul" "except on the OS JohnnyL wrote :P" nil)
(3472682655 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "rahul sbcl is a 'big implementation' ala p_l?" nil)
(3472682659 :privmsg "p_l" "rahul: well, SBCL will kinda use it :P" nil)
(3472682697 :privmsg "rahul" "p_l: only if you have really complex OOP going on" nil)
(3472682699 :privmsg "p_l" "JohnnyL: SBCL is a *big* implementation - it's feature-complete regarding spec (or at least I don't recall people complaining about missing stuff), contains optimizing compiler etc." nil)
(3472682719 :privmsg "p_l" "rahul: wasn't the compiler called somewhere in method specialization in runtime?" nil)
(3472682741 :quit "grouzen" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=grouzen@91.214.124.2")
(3472682755 :privmsg "p_l" "with possibility of replacing it with small code generator that only generated certain kind of stuff that was necessary" nil)
(3472682794 :privmsg "rahul" "p_l: compiling effective methods, I think" nil)
(3472682811 :privmsg "rahul" "p_l: so most of them should be compiled with a few calls" nil)
(3472682828 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "I will have to eval sbcl then and test it. Can you explicitely control it's gc?" nil)
(3472682828 :privmsg "rahul" "unless you have a really complex system of OOP going on with lots of different classes" nil)
(3472682829 :privmsg "p_l" "rahul: yes, but it will still pull the compiler from VM to ram :P" nil)
(3472682848 :privmsg "rahul" "in which case all those different objects with different classses will take up far more memory than the compiler" nil)
(3472682878 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: you mean, can you make it kill your OS?" nil)
(3472682895 :privmsg "p_l" "JohnnyL: I'm not sure how specific the control over GC is - just remember, that so far, there weren't many people that had to deal with let's say, fast interactive apps, so don't expect nicely prepared GC controls" nil)
(3472682901 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: it has options. you can't tell it exactly what to allocate and where" nil)
(3472682907 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: lisp isn't C" nil)
(3472682913 :privmsg "p_l" "ITA uses custom solutions for some of their codepaths where they know exactly what they want" nil)
(3472682916 :privmsg "rahul" "(actually, you can't do that in portable C either)" nil)
(3472682930 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "yeah, well it's real time. that sux0rs." nil)
(3472682954 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: so GC after your real-time limit" nil)
(3472682957 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "even GL/DX hiccups in c." nil)
(3472682978 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "though it's not always readably noticable." nil)
(3472682979 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: that's because malloc is slower than GC" nil)
(3472683001 :privmsg "rahul" "don't create non-garbage and GC will be fast" nil)
(3472683005 :join "larry65" nil "n=larry@d122-105-194-67.meb12.vic.optusnet.com.au")
(3472683022 :privmsg "rahul" "and don't create finalizers" nil)
(3472683108 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "i don't see how malloc is slower than gc. malloc goes in order of memory addresses in one direction assigning freepointers where the last free pointer was found. It's speed is mostly dependant on how fraged your memory is. But yes, those lags are usually malloc to RAM." nil)
(3472683148 :quit "Khisanth" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net")
(3472683154 :privmsg "p_l" "JohnnyL: actually, not really - many current malloc implementations don't use brk()/sbrk()" nil)
(3472683189 :privmsg "p_l" "also, free() for proper work has to maintain a \"free list\" etc." nil)
(3472683225 :join "saikatc" nil "n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net")
(3472683243 :quit "ivan4th" "Excess Flood" "n=ivan4th@212.1.228.48")
(3472683257 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: you can't see how a linear search is faster than incrementing a variable?" nil)
(3472683275 :privmsg "rahul" "now I'm even more convinced that I don't want you implementing my OS" nil)
(3472683283 :privmsg "leo2007" "I am install gsl for gsll. Generally, can I remove those .a files?" nil)
(3472683304 :privmsg "p_l" "leo2007: well, if you don't plan on using static linking anywhere, then yes" nil)
(3472683358 :quit "Hun" "Remote closed the connection" "n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de")
(3472683396 :privmsg "leo2007" "cl doesn't use static linking, right?" nil)
(3472683441 :quit "mgr" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de")
(3472683474 :privmsg "p_l" "leo2007: unless you use ECL" nil)
(3472683510 :privmsg "leo2007" "i see. Thanks ;)" nil)
(3472683520 :quit "xenosoz2" "Remote closed the connection" "n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr")
(3472683535 :privmsg "p_l" "leo2007: mind you, it should be possible to link statically SBCL, for example, just that I'm not sure if anyone tried :)" nil)
(3472683553 :join "xenosoz2" nil "n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr")
(3472683634 :privmsg "stoop" "JohnnyL, GC can mean many things. The argument isn't so much about managing freelists or whatever, GC can allow for more intelligent allocation and caching semantics." nil)
(3472683749 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Johnny: Then you don't understand the basic problem that malloc/free need to solve." nil)
(3472683752 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "stoop okay, you caught my attention. But my somewhat limited experience has not found this to be true." nil)
(3472683765 :join "myrkraverk" nil "n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk")
(3472683767 :quit "re-l" "Remote closed the connection" "n=re-l@c-98-197-118-188.hsd1.tx.comcast.net")
(3472683774 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Johnny: malloc/free are essentially a search algorithm." nil)
(3472683812 :quit "HET2" "\"This computer has gone to sleep\"" "n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3472683897 :join "svaksha" nil "n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org")
(3472683951 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "Now I can see why some lisp implementations take up 70meg. Take a patch of contiguous RAM and allocate 'blocks' according to size. It would be fair to say that this would be faster then searching the OS's RAM." nil)
(3472683985 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Johnny: Then you're seeing incorrectly, again." nil)
(3472684005 :privmsg "p_l" "JohnnyL: SBCL for example will show as taking 8G on 64bit machine, because it will allocate a continuous address space of 8G and then manage it completely by itself" nil)
(3472684030 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "p_l yeah, it makes sense." nil)
(3472684046 :privmsg "Zhivago" "johnny: Do you understand the difference between 'ram' and 'address space'?" nil)
(3472684057 :privmsg "stoop" "Appears not." nil)
(3472684064 :join "balooga" nil "n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-151.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net")
(3472684175 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472684184 :join "slather" nil "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472684189 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472684198 :join "slather" nil "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472684224 :join "Guest39611" nil "n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net")
(3472684245 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "yes address space can be randomly accessed in memory and randomly accessed memory can be allocated into address spaces." nil)
(3472684256 :join "galaxywatcher_" nil "n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-33.revip2.asianet.co.th")
(3472684277 :privmsg "chiiph" "is there anything I need to do to make emacs highlight the parentheses?" nil)
(3472684282 :privmsg "stoop" "JohnnyL, no." nil)
(3472684288 :privmsg "mle" "JohnnyL: addresses don't necessarily map to physical ram." nil)
(3472684300 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Johnny: I suggest that from now on you start from the basic assumption that you do not know anything about computers." nil)
(3472684300 :action "rahul" "facepalm" nil)
(3472684305 :privmsg "leo2007" "p_l: thanks" nil)
(3472684322 :privmsg "leo2007" "does ccl include libffi?" nil)
(3472684325 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: I'd especially not assume I knew more than everyone else if I were you" nil)
(3472684342 :privmsg "soupdragon" "rahul, but you aren't so you do? :P" nil)
(3472684343 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "pesonally i think you chaps need a dictionary, why are you asking me all of these basic questions?" nil)
(3472684346 :privmsg "rahul" "leo2007: ccl has an ffi. no clue what libffi is" nil)
(3472684359 :privmsg "leo2007" "rahul: this http://sourceware.org/libffi/" nil)
(3472684373 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Because you are saying incredibly stupid things, and we want to find out why." nil)
(3472684380 :privmsg "mle" "bleh, JohnnyL don't troll." nil)
(3472684395 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "mle prove it." nil)
(3472684404 :join "felideon" nil "n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net")
(3472684416 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: we aren't asking if YOU need a dictionary" nil)
(3472684416 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "mle you can't have addresses without 'physical ram'." nil)
(3472684421 :privmsg "rahul" "oh my god" nil)
(3472684426 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: WRONG" nil)
(3472684440 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: 99% of all addresses have no physical ram" nil)
(3472684440 :privmsg "Zhivago" "johnny: Yes -- incredibly stupid things like that ..." nil)
(3472684443 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "I am happy as a clam." nil)
(3472684450 :privmsg "rahul" "ignorance is bliss" nil)
(3472684471 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: the MMU was invented decades ago" nil)
(3472684479 :privmsg "fe[nl]ix" "JohnnyL: a clam that is about to be cooked" nil)
(3472684482 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: stop using a 286" nil)
(3472684507 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "I swear if I find a GL library thats not full features (or abandoned in 2001) in a Lisp like language, I will forever swear at Lisp!" nil)
(3472684531 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472684539 :join "slather" nil "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472684556 :quit "NNshag" "Client Quit" "n=shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-45-49.adsl.proxad.net")
(3472684607 :action "drewc" "walks in, *boggle*" nil)
(3472684610 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "rahul Yes, natural language has this tendency to redefine any word it comes across, and for a lack of many other things, you and Zhivago seem to be masters of this." nil)
(3472684630 :privmsg "stoop" "JohnnyL, no, you are just wrong." nil)
(3472684640 :privmsg "stoop" "JohnnyL, here, let me give you a good URL." nil)
(3472684676 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "THIS_IS_THE_PURPOSE_I_SERVE: MOV EBX, %NO_IT_ISN'T. JMP THIS_IS_THE_PURPOSE_I_SERVE" nil)
(3472684692 :quit "galaxywatcher" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-33.revip2.asianet.co.th")
(3472684693 :nick "galaxywatcher_" "galaxywatcher" "n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-33.revip2.asianet.co.th")
(3472684702 :privmsg "stoop" "Hrm, apparently you are not familiar with AT&T syntax either. :-P" nil)
(3472684714 :privmsg "stoop" "Relax..." nil)
(3472684715 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: your stupidity is not our manipulation" nil)
(3472684731 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: you can't blame all your faults on us" nil)
(3472684748 :quit "spilman" "\"Quitte\"" "n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-29-106.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr")
(3472684753 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "rahul thats just a casual observation." nil)
(3472684777 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "stoop who says I was using AT&T syntax?" nil)
(3472684799 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "see the game goes both ways." nil)
(3472684806 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "playa haters!" nil)
(3472684819 :privmsg "rahul" "JohnnyL: do you have anything real to talk about or are you going to keep asserting that you're correct because you don't know anything?" nil)
(3472684819 :action "JohnnyL" "is the Original Playa... FROM THE HIMALAYA!" nil)
(3472684824 :privmsg "stoop" "You're not funny." nil)
(3472684835 :privmsg "rahul" "wow, he's finally snapped" nil)
(3472684841 :privmsg "JohnnyL" "stoop if you don't like it go program in Lisp, or whatever it is you do." nil)
(3472684841 :join "spradnyesh" nil "n=pradyus@122.167.89.195")
(3472684890 :mode "ChanServ" "+o drewc" "ChanServ@services.")
(3472684932 :privmsg "sykopomp" "drewc: DOITDOITDOITDOIT" nil)
(3472684942 :privmsg "felideon" "lol" nil)
(3472684952 :privmsg "soupdragon" "hey Zhivago" nil)
(3472684989 :privmsg "soupdragon" "I just learned that nobody acceptsa Sapir-Whorf today" nil)
(3472684997 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "does SLIME support automated refactorings to an extent? like rename-local-variable?" nil)
(3472685008 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "or rename-<whatever>" nil)
(3472685017 :privmsg "mle" "soupdragon: heh, ah well." nil)
(3472685023 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: not really, but yes, sorta" nil)
(3472685049 :privmsg "pkhuong" "soupdragon: not the original formulation no. It's fairly simplistic." nil)
(3472685050 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: smth like replace-string-in-form?" nil)
(3472685066 :privmsg "soupdragon" "for some reason, I thought it was a widely accepted fact" nil)
(3472685085 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: more succinctly put, emacs has search and replace, slime has cross-references, and redshank has some cool things for refactoring lisp code" nil)
(3472685114 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: and redshank is not in SLIME, right?" nil)
(3472685117 :part "Guest39611" nil "n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net")
(3472685120 :privmsg "drewc" "minion: redshank?" nil)
(3472685139 :privmsg "sykopomp" "drewc: redshank is pretty good at letting you pretend CLOS class definitions aren't obnoxious to write out." nil)
(3472685144 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: and how do I mix emacs' search/replace with SLIME's cross-references?" nil)
(3472685149 :privmsg "drewc" "http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/emacs/redshank/" nil)
(3472685163 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: thanks, I'll check those out" nil)
(3472685166 :privmsg "pkhuong" "soupdragon: programmers like simple and deterministic (in the social science sense) rules." nil)
(3472685181 :privmsg "soupdragon" "pkhuong hehe I can't say I'm not guilty" nil)
(3472685181 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: M-% and C-M-% are _more_ then enough." nil)
(3472685197 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: i don't think such features are a good idea myself" nil)
(3472685211 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: OK" nil)
(3472685230 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: if every slot has an accessor, and an initarg named after it, you have a different kind of class then a standard class, IMO" nil)
(3472685258 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: especially initargs... they are part of the interface and should not just be created willy-nilly." nil)
(3472685292 :privmsg "drewc" "especially if you're naming the with :keywords... which most tools (and programmers for that matter) do automatically." nil)
(3472685292 :quit "stepnem" "Excess Flood" "n=stepnem@88.103.132.186")
(3472685294 :privmsg "sykopomp" "drewc: it makes sense to force you to write it out, until it turns out that the vast majority of CLOS code (that I have read), pretty much sticks to very limited parameters." nil)
(3472685303 :quit "galaxywatcher" "Excess Flood" "n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-33.revip2.asianet.co.th")
(3472685314 :join "stepnem" nil "n=stepnem@88.103.132.186")
(3472685322 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: what do you mean 'limited parameters'" nil)
(3472685370 :privmsg "rahul" "sykopomp: then you don't need to use CLOS" nil)
(3472685372 :privmsg "sykopomp" "as in, most slot definitions I've read go something like (foo :initarg :foo :initform [foo|foo-of])" nil)
(3472685390 :quit "jpbarrette" nil "n=jpbarret@modemcable098.216-23-96.mc.videotron.ca")
(3472685401 :quit "Adamant" "Excess Flood" "n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant")
(3472685439 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: you must not have read very much clos code then.... first off you made a typo that i will now brow-beat you for...." nil)
(3472685449 :privmsg "sykopomp" "drewc: considering how common that pattern is, I would think it makes more sense to allow you to declare -exceptions- to that pattern, than to force you to use tools like redshank. I don't use defclass*, but I sort of like its approach." nil)
(3472685489 :privmsg "sykopomp" "drewc: A lesson on typos from you would make me giggle more than anything." nil)
(3472685492 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: i don't think it's as common as you'd have me believe." nil)
(3472685509 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: ok... well that's a weird :initarg you've got there...." nil)
(3472685514 :privmsg "drewc" "err" nil)
(3472685519 :privmsg "drewc" ":initform" nil)
(3472685521 :privmsg "drewc" "see" nil)
(3472685526 :privmsg "sykopomp" "drewc: I don't care :)" nil)
(3472685529 :privmsg "drewc" "i can't even browbeat!" nil)
(3472685529 :privmsg "pkhuong" "Krystof: would it be reasonably doable to extend structures with multiple inheritance of empty mixins?" nil)
(3472685595 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: do you really always use an initarg with every slot? to me, an initarg is a signal by the programmer that this slot is meant to be initialized by passing an argument to make-instance." nil)
(3472685632 :privmsg "sykopomp" "drewc: I've seen it as a common pattern. I do not always declare initargs for all slots, no, but it's very common for me to write entire class definitions that do follow that exact pattern." nil)
(3472685650 :quit "dys" "Excess Flood" "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472685664 :join "dys" nil "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472685683 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: so, for me it's uncommon.. very much so. In the cases were i have classes that follow a common pattern.. lisp provides a facility for that..." nil)
(3472685698 :privmsg "sykopomp" "yes, it's called a macro." nil)
(3472685703 :privmsg "drewc" "i use a metaclass that defines initargs and accessors automatically, and document that." nil)
(3472685704 :privmsg "sykopomp" "and you know what defclass is? a macro >:(" nil)
(3472685708 :privmsg "sykopomp" "oh god, nevermind." nil)
(3472685727 :join "hugod" nil "n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441045.dsl.bell.ca")
(3472685738 :privmsg "drewc" "i'm not talking about macros here... but rather meta-protocols." nil)
(3472685740 :privmsg "sykopomp" "I guess going the metaclass way is fine too :|" nil)
(3472685749 :privmsg "rahul" "I rarely have a whole class that has all its elements defined with initargs and accessors" nil)
(3472685762 :privmsg "drewc" "macro/mop it doesn't matter, the point is the same." nil)
(3472685775 :privmsg "rahul" "especially, I don't always have accessors with the same name as the slot" nil)
(3472685778 :privmsg "drewc" "if you have a pattern, give it a name, reifiy it, make it something you can hold." nil)
(3472685779 :privmsg "sykopomp" "well, there's advantages to going the MOP way, but yes :)" nil)
(3472685786 :privmsg "rahul" "since accessors are interface and slot names are implementation" nil)
(3472685787 :join "mischievous" nil "n=mischief@unaffiliated/mischief")
(3472685791 :quit "dys" "Excess Flood" "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472685792 :privmsg "rahul" "accessors are protocol-property" nil)
(3472685798 :privmsg "sykopomp" "I'm just of the opinion that I don't see why the default definition macro can't provide this convenience." nil)
(3472685805 :join "dys" nil "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472685810 :quit "dys" "Excess Flood" "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472685820 :privmsg "mischievous" "this might be off topic, but anyone know why i cant use backspace under emacs+slime?" nil)
(3472685823 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: because it's bad design to have a default that is bad design" nil)
(3472685824 :join "dys" nil "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472685825 :privmsg "rahul" "sykopomp: because that convenience only makes sense something like 10% of the time" nil)
(3472685828 :quit "dys" "Excess Flood" "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472685837 :privmsg "rahul" "sykopomp: and if you want that, use defstruct" nil)
(3472685853 :privmsg "sykopomp" "rahul: can you go run some statistical analysis on all the code in cliki and get back to me in a decade?" nil)
(3472685867 :join "dys" nil "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472685878 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: have you done so? how is it relevant?" nil)
(3472685890 :privmsg "Adlai" "mischievous, what do you mean? what happens when you press the key?" nil)
(3472685890 :join "Khisanth" nil "n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net")
(3472685905 :privmsg "sykopomp" "drewc: I haven't, I just speak from impressions. I think it would be interesting to see how common it is, though." nil)
(3472685905 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: can you accept that maybe there are people who have seen more CLOS using code then you? where might they hang out?" nil)
(3472685916 :privmsg "rahul" "sykopomp: I wouldn't use most of the crap code that's out there" nil)
(3472685922 :privmsg "mischievous" "Adlai, it seems to interpret it as C-h" nil)
(3472685929 :privmsg "sykopomp" "rahul: I know, you NIH to the grave." nil)
(3472685933 :privmsg "rahul" "sykopomp: it would break the moment I tried to do anything interesting with it" nil)
(3472685946 :privmsg "sykopomp" "drewc: If there's anyone who's seen more CLOS code here than anyone else, it's you, of course." nil)
(3472685950 :privmsg "rahul" "sykopomp: oh yeah, I'm the one who needs to implement his own object system to add a single feature :)" nil)
(3472685955 :privmsg "sykopomp" "altohugh I sort of suspect most of that code might be yours or pascal's :P" nil)
(3472685957 :quit "dys" "Excess Flood" "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472685962 :privmsg "Adlai" "mischievous, I'm not sure; that sounds like it might be more of an Emacs configuration issue" nil)
(3472685971 :privmsg "pkhuong" "mischievous: termcap issues." nil)
(3472685971 :join "dys" nil "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472685972 :quit "dys" "Excess Flood" "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472685986 :join "dys" nil "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472686011 :privmsg "mischievous" "pkhuong, at my terminal and in other editors it seems to work like i expect" nil)
(3472686024 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: good hackers borrow, great hackers steal :P" nil)
(3472686029 :privmsg "Guthur" "that wasn't a nice thing to say, hehe" nil)
(3472686032 :privmsg "Guthur" "rahul" nil)
(3472686048 :privmsg "sykopomp" "drewc: I'm not about to jump into a pissing contest about CLOS expertise with you -- I'm just saying that I think defclass could be a little less noisy." nil)
(3472686050 :quit "dys" "Excess Flood" "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472686059 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: and i'm saying it's not :" nil)
(3472686064 :join "dys" nil "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472686064 :quit "dys" "Excess Flood" "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472686069 :privmsg "drewc" "(defclass foo () (bar baz bat))" nil)
(3472686073 :privmsg "Adlai" "dys could also be a little less noisy.." nil)
(3472686078 :join "dys" nil "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472686078 :quit "dys" "Excess Flood" "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472686082 :privmsg "rahul" "sykopomp: once you get more used to OOP, you'll realize that you shouldn't be doing those things that you think should be default" nil)
(3472686085 :privmsg "pkhuong" "mischievous: most other implementation interpret C-h as backspace." nil)
(3472686088 :privmsg "drewc" "that's not very noisy at all." nil)
(3472686092 :join "dys" nil "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472686092 :quit "dys" "Excess Flood" "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472686093 :privmsg "pkhuong" "s/implementation/program/" nil)
(3472686106 :join "dys" nil "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472686148 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "is there a real meaning to be able to pass 1152921504606846975 arguments to a function?" nil)
(3472686148 :privmsg "rahul" "sykopomp: thinking in terms of protocols completely changed my view of how to design classes" nil)
(3472686154 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: no" nil)
(3472686162 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: OK, good" nil)
(3472686177 :privmsg "mischievous" "pkhuong, yet, emacs interprets C-h as C-h. surprising -.-" nil)
(3472686180 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: it just means that you can put all your values on the heap and pass them to the function as a list :P" nil)
(3472686191 :privmsg "sykopomp" "drewc: (defclass foo () ((foo :initarg :foos-foo :accessor foo-of) (bar :initform (incf *yo-mama*) :reader mamacount) (baz :initarg :maybe-I-want-one :initform *otherwise-this* :reader awesome :writer (setf sauce))))" nil)
(3472686207 :privmsg "sykopomp" "^ that's about the kind of class definition I'd expect." nil)
(3472686210 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul:  :P will keep that in imnd" nil)
(3472686213 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: can i see what protocol you are implementing?" nil)
(3472686264 :privmsg "sykopomp" "drewc: that's just a class with 3 slots. Nothing fancy going on there!" nil)
(3472686275 :privmsg "sykopomp" "I didn't even use :allocation or :documentation!" nil)
(3472686295 :quit "dys" "Excess Flood" "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472686309 :join "dys" nil "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472686319 :privmsg "Adlai" "drewc, this is something still on the drawing board" nil)
(3472686319 :quit "amnesiac" "\"Leaving\"" "n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac")
(3472686337 :privmsg "Guthur" "drewc: so for accessing your internal to class slots would you use (with-slots...)?" nil)
(3472686365 :privmsg "Guthur" "i just find (slot-value ....) very obnoxious" nil)
(3472686375 :privmsg "Adlai" "(as far as I can tell)" nil)
(3472686401 :privmsg "Guthur" "probably not the right description, but awkward anyway" nil)
(3472686408 :quit "Adlai" "Remote closed the connection" "n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai")
(3472686411 :privmsg "drewc" "Guthur: it shouldn't matter..." nil)
(3472686423 :join "Adlai" nil "n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai")
(3472686424 :privmsg "drewc" "the consumer of your protocol uses the generic functions provided." nil)
(3472686434 :privmsg "drewc" "the implementation details are just that." nil)
(3472686439 :privmsg "Guthur" "well that was going to be the reason I would say I often implement an accessor or reader" nil)
(3472686447 :quit "stassats`" "\"ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)\"" "n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats")
(3472686468 :privmsg "Guthur" "reader for quite constant slots" nil)
(3472686496 :privmsg "Guthur" "implement/specify" nil)
(3472686502 :privmsg "drewc" "i have used with-slots, slot-value and an accessor for that slot, all in the same function, and there was a good reason for it." nil)
(3472686550 :privmsg "sykopomp" "drewc: that doesn't sound very clean or straightforward, regardless of how good a reason you think you had..." nil)
(3472686554 :privmsg "rahul" "Guthur: you're confusing implementation and interface" nil)
(3472686576 :privmsg "Guthur" "rahul not really thinking of interface, there may not be an initarg" nil)
(3472686580 :privmsg "rahul" "sykopomp: you think polymorphism is bad?" nil)
(3472686585 :privmsg "Guthur" "or rather it is internal" nil)
(3472686587 :privmsg "rahul" "Guthur: huh?" nil)
(3472686595 :privmsg "Guthur" "thats not interface" nil)
(3472686602 :privmsg "sykopomp" "rahul: I think polymorphing is the work of satan and witches." nil)
(3472686604 :privmsg "rahul" "and 7 is not 10" nil)
(3472686604 :privmsg "Guthur" "as I understand it" nil)
(3472686604 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: have you ever used CAR and FIRST on the same cons in different contexts?" nil)
(3472686626 :privmsg "sykopomp" "drewc: no. I would consider that a pretty retarded inconsistency." nil)
(3472686631 :privmsg "rahul" "Guthur: \"slot\" is not how you manipulate data" nil)
(3472686654 :privmsg "Guthur" "rahul: ?" nil)
(3472686663 :privmsg "rahul" "Guthur: you never manipulate slots" nil)
(3472686665 :privmsg "sykopomp" "although I've had more mixup in general of whether I prefer first/car depending on who I expect to read my code." nil)
(3472686676 :privmsg "rahul" "you implement in terms of slots, or not" nil)
(3472686689 :privmsg "Guthur" "rahul: but I talking about accessing their value" nil)
(3472686698 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: CAR is for CONSes, FIRST is for LISTS" nil)
(3472686703 :privmsg "rahul" "Guthur: accessing a slot's value is not part of your interface" nil)
(3472686720 :join "gonzojive" nil "n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU")
(3472686722 :privmsg "sykopomp" "drewc: funny, I use CAR on lists all the time :)" nil)
(3472686724 :privmsg "Adlai" "SECOND is for LOSErs" nil)
(3472686727 :privmsg "Adlai" ":D" nil)
(3472686728 :privmsg "Guthur" "I know thats why I said I wasn't referring to interface" nil)
(3472686729 :privmsg "rahul" "Guthur: an accessor may not access a slot at all" nil)
(3472686747 :privmsg "rahul" "Guthur: then you don't need with-slots or acessors" nil)
(3472686757 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: i'm sure you do, that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do." nil)
(3472686768 :privmsg "rahul" "Guthur: and your slot name may not be the same as your accessor name" nil)
(3472686769 :privmsg "Guthur" "rahul: how would you store internal state then" nil)
(3472686775 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "is there now way to write functions with dynamic keyword arguments like Python's **kwargs?" nil)
(3472686776 :privmsg "drewc" "Guthur: in the generic function!" nil)
(3472686784 :privmsg "rahul" "Guthur: anywhere I can store state" nil)
(3472686788 :privmsg "sykopomp" "drewc: I think cadddadadaddaddadr come off as more list-surgery-oriented than the first-tenth" nil)
(3472686790 :privmsg "Guthur" "slot?" nil)
(3472686791 :privmsg "rahul" "Guthur: slots are but one option" nil)
(3472686804 :privmsg "sykopomp" "so I don't really agree with what you're saying." nil)
(3472686804 :privmsg "rahul" "Guthur: methods are another" nil)
(3472686821 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "I mean, functions with BOTH dynamic and defined kw arguments" nil)
(3472686833 :privmsg "rahul" "sykopomp: so you think of lists as things that have a car and a cdr?" nil)
(3472686841 :privmsg "pkhuong" "RaceCondition: you can process a &rest list arbitrarily." nil)
(3472686843 :privmsg "sykopomp" "rahul: you don't?" nil)
(3472686844 :privmsg "rahul" "sykopomp: and cons cells as things that have first and tenth?" nil)
(3472686847 :privmsg "Adlai" "RaceCondition, yes" nil)
(3472686850 :privmsg "rahul" "sykopomp: no, I don't" nil)
(3472686854 :privmsg "Adlai" "clhs 3.4.1" nil)
(3472686860 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: what is the SECOND of a cons?" nil)
(3472686864 :privmsg "rahul" "sykopomp: lists have firsts, seconds, and rests" nil)
(3472686865 :privmsg "sykopomp" "rahul: you're silly, please learn lisp properly and come back in a decade." nil)
(3472686872 :privmsg "rahul" "haha" nil)
(3472686877 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "pkhuong: but if I have (defun foo (&rest rest &key a b c) ...), I can only pass :a, :b and :c, not random kw arguments" nil)
(3472686886 :privmsg "Adlai" "RaceCondition, the basic idea is you can do (&rest args &key foo bar &allow-other-keys)" nil)
(3472686899 :action "rahul" "summons the ghost of Naggum to beat down sykopomp for willful ignorance" nil)
(3472686900 :privmsg "sykopomp" "drewc: the car of whatever the cdr of a cons is :)" nil)
(3472686913 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: (cons 1 2)  <---- ?" nil)
(3472686914 :privmsg "Adlai" "RaceCondition, this is very convenient in generic functions, where each method can handle a few different keywords." nil)
(3472686923 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: &allow-other-keys" nil)
(3472686923 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "Adlai: oh, &allow-other-keys, nice... PCL didn't tell me about that" nil)
(3472686930 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: conses are distinct from lists in may ways." nil)
(3472686934 :privmsg "sykopomp" "drewc: (second (list 1)) <---- ?" nil)
(3472686941 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: NIL" nil)
(3472686944 :privmsg "mle" "_|_" nil)
(3472686957 :privmsg "sykopomp" "o rly" nil)
(3472686958 :privmsg "sykopomp" "urrite :D" nil)
(3472686962 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: what's your point?" nil)
(3472686963 :privmsg "sellout" "Who let the haskeller in?" nil)
(3472686968 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "but why does Lisp bot a, b, and c in rest too? is there also a way to disable that?" nil)
(3472686976 :privmsg "mle" "sellout: heh" nil)
(3472686984 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "bot=put" nil)
(3472686985 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: no" nil)
(3472687003 :privmsg "sykopomp" "drewc: my point is that lists are composed of conses and I consider first->tenth to be more readable ways of doing the same thing." nil)
(3472687014 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: i agree." nil)
(3472687015 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: because &rest gives you the actual tail of the list that is passed as the parameter list" nil)
(3472687016 :privmsg "Adlai" "RaceCondition, the &rest argument is collected separately from the keyword argument parsing" nil)
(3472687024 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: other things are made of conses too though" nil)
(3472687034 :privmsg "rahul" "sykopomp: cons cells happen to be the way lists are implemented" nil)
(3472687041 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: can't I just put &rest AFTER &key? :P" nil)
(3472687049 :privmsg "sellout" "RaceCondition: Nope." nil)
(3472687050 :privmsg "Adlai" "RaceCondition, no" nil)
(3472687056 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: no, because the keys can occur in any order" nil)
(3472687078 :part "tmh" nil "n=user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh")
(3472687090 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: what is the tail that contains the keyword that is not x in (:y 1 :x 2)?" nil)
(3472687091 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: if i happen to use lists to make, say, structs... is it then 'correct' to use my struct accessors on any list?" nil)
(3472687092 :privmsg "Adlai" "RaceCondition, however, the spec says that the leftmost supplied argument is the one which gets bound for keywords; thus, it's possible to filter out just the values that you have in keyword arguments." nil)
(3472687093 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "ah, well, in practice it doesn't probably matter at all anyway" nil)
(3472687099 :quit "Khisanth" "\"Leaving\"" "n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net")
(3472687112 :join "Khisanth" nil "n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net")
(3472687147 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: generally, you use something like REMF-PLIST (aka SANS) to remove what you don't want from the &rest plist" nil)
(3472687163 :privmsg "drewc" "remove-property? what are we calling it these days?" nil)
(3472687165 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: OK" nil)
(3472687180 :nick "marioxcc" "marioxcc-AFK" "n=user@200.77.65.198")
(3472687182 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "how about mixing positional and key arguments in rest?" nil)
(3472687230 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: you are free to parse the &rest list however you want... however, if you want to use &key, you have to stick to the calling conventions it allows." nil)
(3472687230 :privmsg "Adlai" "RaceCondition, what do you mean?" nil)
(3472687274 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "OK... I guess I'm just too used to what Python allows me to do with arguments" nil)
(3472687290 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: look at LOOP" nil)
(3472687305 :privmsg "rahul" "can't do that with python's calling conventions :)" nil)
(3472687317 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "of course, I'm not saying Python is better" nil)
(3472687345 :quit "stoop" "\"Leaving\"" "n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop")
(3472687353 :privmsg "sykopomp" "RaceCondition: Python is indeed better than most things out there." nil)
(3472687355 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: you can do whatever you want with arguments..." nil)
(3472687363 :privmsg "sykopomp" "perhaps not better than NX, though" nil)
(3472687365 :privmsg "sykopomp" "Adlai: AMIRITE" nil)
(3472687392 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: you're just not far enough along in your lisping to realise that what the language offers is only a default, and trivially changed." nil)
(3472687403 :action "Adlai" "laughacepalms" nil)
(3472687421 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: I know that, as I've said, I'm just exploring" nil)
(3472687421 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: unlike python, we're not stuck with our function defining form!" nil)
(3472687424 :privmsg "drewc" ":D" nil)
(3472687443 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: well, sometimes the lack of syntax shows it's slight shortcomings though" nil)
(3472687453 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: i don't follow" nil)
(3472687462 :privmsg "Adlai" "RaceCondition, even lambda-lists are customizable. Macros in fact always take exactly two arguments; DEFMACRO works some \"magic\"" nil)
(3472687474 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "as is the case with argument passing which seems to be a bit more flexible in Python just because Python's function calls contain a bit more meta-information about the callee" nil)
(3472687479 :privmsg "Adlai" "to allow you to write macros with destructuring lambda-lists" nil)
(3472687508 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "Adlai: I don't know anything about lambda-lists yet, but I'll get there :)" nil)
(3472687511 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: i don't understand how argument passing can be more flexible..." nil)
(3472687536 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: you have a list of arguments... do what you want with them... that's pretty damn flexible." nil)
(3472687543 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: well in Python I can more conveniently mix and match positional, kw, rest-kw and rest-positional stuff" nil)
(3472687559 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: yeah, but in Python you get an argument list PLUS the meta information about the intent of the caller" nil)
(3472687570 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "anyway, it's not important... I'm gonna continue reading PCL :P" nil)
(3472687583 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: and you can in lisp too... it would be a fun first macro" nil)
(3472687590 :privmsg "Guthur" "I was told today python has no future, some guy's IT lecturer told him, I can't for the life of me think of a reason why it would be true" nil)
(3472687602 :privmsg "drewc" "what meta information about the intent of the caller? It's been a while since i used python.. but..." nil)
(3472687617 :privmsg "drewc" "i don't remember getting meta data along with my arguments..." nil)
(3472687619 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: well commas and equal signs, nothing more" nil)
(3472687647 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "foo(a, b, c=3, d=4) leaves no doubt for the callee as to whether c and d are positional or kw arguments" nil)
(3472687661 :quit "rdad" "Client Quit" "n=rdad@cpe-24-193-112-99.nyc.res.rr.com")
(3472687681 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "in Lisp's (foo a b :c 3 :d 4) it is a matter of interpretation what the 4 last arguments mean" nil)
(3472687711 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: not if you defined it with &key it's not...." nil)
(3472687726 :privmsg "Adlai" "RaceCondition, also, I'm not sure if you're aware, but optional and keyword arguments have a more intricate syntax than just (&key a b c)" nil)
(3472687743 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "Adlai: you mean (a nil a-p) etc?" nil)
(3472687750 :privmsg "Adlai" "yeah" nil)
(3472687756 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "and ((:alpha a) nil a-p)" nil)
(3472687764 :privmsg "Adlai" "you can build up similar abstractions yourself" nil)
(3472687769 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "I know that, yes, and that's of course something in which Python is lacking :)" nil)
(3472687784 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "Adlai: no I'm not never trying to say Python is more flexible :P" nil)
(3472687805 :privmsg "Adlai" "I wasn't accusing you of that" nil)
(3472687846 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: if you create a calling convention including more metadata and a macro that parses it, you can have what you want" nil)
(3472687871 :privmsg "rahul" "assuming you can figure out how to actually make such a feature reliable" nil)
(3472687879 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: (foo :c 3 :d 4) <== Python would figure that out but Lisp would just map :c and 3 to first 2 positional args" nil)
(3472687885 :privmsg "rahul" "and make it useful in the first place" nil)
(3472687890 :quit "pr" "\"Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/\"" "n=pr@unaffiliated/pr")
(3472687913 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: and what would it do with the values of the two positional args?" nil)
(3472687927 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: is python's APPLY full of strange edge cases?" nil)
(3472687939 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: assuming they were optional, they would just get their defaults" nil)
(3472687958 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: not that I know" nil)
(3472687962 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: how can you specify the second optional arg and not the first?" nil)
(3472687977 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: by passing it as a keyword argument" nil)
(3472687981 :privmsg "rahul" "eh?" nil)
(3472687997 :quit "Guthur" "\"Computer says no\"" "n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com")
(3472688007 :privmsg "rahul" "it's a positional arg, not a keyword arg" nil)
(3472688010 :privmsg "Adlai" "rahul, you can do foo(a=1, b=2) or foo(b=2, a=1)" nil)
(3472688013 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "def foo(a=0) can be called as foo() and foo(1) or foo(a=1)" nil)
(3472688014 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: the python way seems horribly inconsistent and error prone to me... you keep calling them 'positional arguments'... but they're not qute, are they." nil)
(3472688039 :privmsg "rahul" "what if you do foo(1, a=2)?" nil)
(3472688043 :privmsg "drewc" "i mean, if you can change the position of the arg... how positional can it be!" nil)
(3472688043 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: Python really doesn't distinguish between pos. and kw. args and it's not inconsistent at all, in fact it very consistent and intuitive" nil)
(3472688043 :privmsg "drewc" ":D" nil)
(3472688055 :privmsg "Adlai" "rahul, then python gets angry and confused :D" nil)
(3472688056 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: it would be an error because foo only takes 0 or 1 args" nil)
(3472688061 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: 'intuitive' eh?" nil)
(3472688063 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: eh??" nil)
(3472688076 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: I only gave it 1 arg!" nil)
(3472688090 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: (foo :a 1 :a 2) is perfectly legal lisp" nil)
(3472688090 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "you called foo(1, a=2), that's 2 arguments" nil)
(3472688100 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: nope" nil)
(3472688112 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: the only arg I've specified there is a" nil)
(3472688126 :privmsg "Adlai" "rahul, (foo :a 1 :a 2) is four arguments, which are interpreted as one by the standard keyword argument parsing code" nil)
(3472688150 :privmsg "rahul" "Adlai: and in pythong 1, a=2 is one arg!" nil)
(3472688175 :action "drewc" "tunes out" nil)
(3472688194 :privmsg "Adlai" "as I said... python gets angry and confused" nil)
(3472688204 :privmsg "rahul" "so there's a strange edge case" nil)
(3472688220 :privmsg "Adlai" "and because it doesn't have a condition system, you get dumped with a backtrace and a \"Come back soon!\" card" nil)
(3472688226 :privmsg "rahul" "haha" nil)
(3472688278 :privmsg "rahul" "do I at least get 20% off on my next execution?" nil)
(3472688304 :privmsg "rahul" "(failed execution, no less)" nil)
(3472688331 :privmsg "drewc" "oh man... i looked up python's apply..." nil)
(3472688344 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: what do you mean Python's apply?" nil)
(3472688355 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "you don't need apply in Python, I believe it's deprecated" nil)
(3472688360 :privmsg "rahul" "what??" nil)
(3472688363 :privmsg "rahul" "hahaha" nil)
(3472688377 :privmsg "rahul" "well, no wonder, since their calling convention is so broken" nil)
(3472688391 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: do you think you are being wise right now?" nil)
(3472688399 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: 'extended call syntax' is syntax over APPLY" nil)
(3472688409 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: well, yes" nil)
(3472688410 :privmsg "Adlai" "I've been pretty scared of Python ever since I saw Peter Norvig's brief exploration into its AST..." nil)
(3472688419 :privmsg "drewc" "rahul: indeed, that's probably why they deprecated it in favour of syntax" nil)
(3472688419 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: no, I am observing the results of the unwise" nil)
(3472688433 :privmsg "Adlai" ">>> parse(\"2 + 2\") => ['eval_input', ['testlist', ['test', ['and_test', ['not_test', ['comparison', ['expr', ['xor_expr', ['and_expr', ['shift_expr', ['arith_expr', ['term',  ['factor', ['power', ['atom', [2, '2']]]]], [14, '+'], ['term', ['factor', ['power', ['atom', [2, '2']]]]]]]]]]]]]]], [4, ''], [0, '']]" nil)
(3472688436 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: do I even want to know?" nil)
(3472688467 :privmsg "soupdragon" "that's a parse tree though" nil)
(3472688469 :quit "rajesh" "\"leaving\"" "n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh")
(3472688475 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: do you work at USC?" nil)
(3472688479 :privmsg "soupdragon" "like a BNF parse tree instead of a syntax tree" nil)
(3472688483 :privmsg "Adlai" "I prefer my lisp's parse tree" nil)
(3472688488 :privmsg "drewc" "rahul:well, basically you pass the positional arguments as a sequence, and the keywords as the the third argument in a dictionary with strings as keys naming the parameters" nil)
(3472688489 :privmsg "rahul" "eh?" nil)
(3472688499 :privmsg "rahul" "what would working at USC indicate?" nil)
(3472688501 :privmsg "soupdragon" "kinda interesting anyway" nil)
(3472688508 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: just asking" nil)
(3472688523 :privmsg "Adlai" "drewc, strings?" nil)
(3472688526 :privmsg "soupdragon" "can't imagine anyone actually wanting to use that information (that parse gives you)" nil)
(3472688531 :privmsg "Adlai" "it doesn't even intern symbols?" nil)
(3472688535 :privmsg "rahul" "Adlai: what, do you expect symbols?" nil)
(3472688538 :privmsg "rahul" "haha" nil)
(3472688540 :privmsg "soupdragon" "well I guess it's just part of the implementation?" nil)
(3472688541 :privmsg "Adlai" "Ruby has symbols" nil)
(3472688544 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "Adlai: I believe Python's strings are all interned" nil)
(3472688547 :privmsg "rahul" "Adlai: python doesn't have namespaces" nil)
(3472688549 :privmsg "drewc" "rahul: i think he's stalking you at teh google!" nil)
(3472688559 :action "Adlai" "shudders and bolts" nil)
(3472688562 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "Adlai: you mean packages or a separation of variables/functions?" nil)
(3472688571 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: apparently he's stalking someone else, tho :P" nil)
(3472688584 :privmsg "Adlai" "RaceCondition, I mean interning of strings into symbols" nil)
(3472688612 :privmsg "drewc" "rahul: there is a rahul at USC with some lisp related papers, but it was hard to find him as you're a little more prominent when i search with the expected keywords" nil)
(3472688612 :privmsg "rahul" "Adlai: yeah, I'm pretty sure strings are always interned in python" nil)
(3472688615 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "Adlai: I mean, 'foo' and 'foo' in Python are the same object" nil)
(3472688622 :privmsg "Adlai" "oh, ok" nil)
(3472688626 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: interesting" nil)
(3472688643 :quit "bgs100" "\"Leaving\"" "n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100")
(3472688655 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: is that only for literal strings?" nil)
(3472688658 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: is this that rahul who was trying to write a lisp for .NET?" nil)
(3472688667 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: I'm not sure, I'll see" nil)
(3472688672 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: and if not, does that not completely break garbage collection?" nil)
(3472688690 :privmsg "rahul" "um" nil)
(3472688704 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: that wouldn't be the first thing breaking python's gc" nil)
(3472688710 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: a = 'foo'; b = 'f' + 'oo'; id(a) == id(b)" nil)
(3472688780 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: but there are exceptions, as far as I remember, regarding the building of strings using some other methods..." nil)
(3472688782 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: at least they were smarter than perl and realized that they should actually GC" nil)
(3472688814 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: but they only GC under some specific circumstances" nil)
(3472688826 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: that is scary... you mean i cannot use more strings in the lifetime of my program than i have memory, or is pythons concept of object identity broken?" nil)
(3472688837 :join "dys`" nil "n=andreas@krlh-5f72ec61.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472688842 :privmsg "rahul" "hopefully you don't get stuck in a situation where you need a GC but python decides that you're not worthy of one" nil)
(3472688859 :privmsg "drewc" "i thought people told me python was a good language? are these just implementation issues or is the design as frail as it seems?" nil)
(3472688869 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: I really don't understand the question, but I'm also not seeing why the bashing" nil)
(3472688889 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: he's not bashing python. python is bashing itself." nil)
(3472688902 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "whatever" nil)
(3472688959 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: i'm trying to learn... i've been offered python work and have always though i'd enjoy the language.... but this is not good news." nil)
(3472688996 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: you are serious that string interning internals make Python a good or a bad language?" nil)
(3472689001 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: when does a string get garbage collected if they are all interned?" nil)
(3472689001 :privmsg "rahul" "python is basically perl designed by a teacher" nil)
(3472689017 :join "mattrepl" nil "n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net")
(3472689018 :privmsg "bill`" "a teacher who doesn't understand tail call optimisation or the value of functions as data" nil)
(3472689022 :privmsg "bill`" ":-(" nil)
(3472689024 :privmsg "pkhuong" "drewc: weak hash table would work." nil)
(3472689027 :privmsg "Adlai" "drewc, maybe they're weakly interned" nil)
(3472689035 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: are you trying to say that a language such as Python does not GC strings? cmon.." nil)
(3472689047 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: no, you said that :)" nil)
(3472689049 :privmsg "pkhuong" "RaceCondition: he's asking hwther they are." nil)
(3472689064 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "I really don't know how Python's GC works" nil)
(3472689077 :privmsg "rahul" "since you call it a GC, you clearly don't" nil)
(3472689088 :privmsg "drewc" "pkhuong: i suppose... but are there not massive performance implications?" nil)
(3472689099 :privmsg "pkhuong" "drewc: I don't see why." nil)
(3472689131 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: being funny?" nil)
(3472689137 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: no" nil)
(3472689141 :privmsg "sykopomp" "RaceCondition: s/funny/a dick/" nil)
(3472689141 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "good" nil)
(3472689163 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: learn what a GC is and learn how python manages memory" nil)
(3472689176 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: you do that for me" nil)
(3472689193 :privmsg "Adlai" "RaceCondition, you don't need to; you're in the land of lisp now! (so learn what a GC is and learn how your CL implementation manages memory)" nil)
(3472689199 :privmsg "rahul" "once you've recovered from boggling at python, you'll understand why you can't use the term gc with python without reservation" nil)
(3472689215 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "Adlai: I was just about to say that I'm gonna continue reading PCL :P" nil)
(3472689222 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: um, I can't inject knowledge into your mind" nil)
(3472689231 :privmsg "pkhuong" "rahul: I don't see how python's GC isn't a GC." nil)
(3472689236 :privmsg "rahul" "especially when your \"cup\" is already full" nil)
(3472689273 :privmsg "rahul" "pkhuong: how does python decide when you should get a GC or not?" nil)
(3472689296 :privmsg "drewc" "wait.. are python strings mutable?" nil)
(3472689303 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: no, immutable" nil)
(3472689308 :privmsg "drewc" "ah ok!" nil)
(3472689312 :privmsg "rahul" "I don't see how a cycle detector can be enabled or disabled without having a cycle detector" nil)
(3472689332 :privmsg "drewc" "that's where i was confused as hell with the interning bit." nil)
(3472689335 :privmsg "pkhuong" "rahul: what's the difference with generational GCs?" nil)
(3472689344 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: I should have mentioned that detail" nil)
(3472689351 :privmsg "rahul" "pkhuong: generational GCs will GC at one point or another" nil)
(3472689365 :privmsg "pkhuong" "rahul: a major GC? Might never happen." nil)
(3472689367 :privmsg "rahul" "pkhuong: python needs to somehow be convinced that there is a need for GC" nil)
(3472689391 :privmsg "bill`" "python's GIL is more problematic than its GC" nil)
(3472689422 :privmsg "rahul" "bill`: oh, I forgot about that farce" nil)
(3472689442 :part "JohnnyL" nil "i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net")
(3472689443 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: yeah, i can live with a funky apply and calling conventions... mutable interned string OTOH, i couldn't figure out for the life of me." nil)
(3472689471 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: just curious: what's wrong with the calling conventions?" nil)
(3472689481 :join "wakeup^" nil "n=wakeup@koln-5d819027.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472689498 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "and apply..." nil)
(3472689501 :privmsg "pkhuong" "rahul: so would a generational gc." nil)
(3472689505 :quit "dys" "No route to host" "n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472689524 :privmsg "pkhuong" "It's the same thing... Something to handle most of the workload and something else for correctness." nil)
(3472689524 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: the 'argument list' is no such thing. this complicates APPLY and a lot of other functional idioms" nil)
(3472689542 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: complicates for the interpreter/compiler or the programmer?" nil)
(3472689564 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: both" nil)
(3472689586 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: you mean that there are two lists, one for positional and one for kw args?" nil)
(3472689587 :privmsg "pkhuong" "Or you could RTFM if you're really worried about the details: \"the collector keeps track of the number object allocations and deallocations since the last collection. When the number of allocations minus the number of deallocations exceeds threshold0, collection starts.\"" nil)
(3472689603 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: be careful... the kw args don't come in a list." nil)
(3472689617 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: yes, a dictionary" nil)
(3472689644 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: but what functional  idioms does it complicate? I'd just like to know because I do Python almost every day" nil)
(3472689740 :privmsg "leo2007" "any gsll users here?" nil)
(3472689776 :privmsg "rahul" "pkhuong: except that the correctness is enabled in python based on ... well, I don't know what" nil)
(3472689798 :privmsg "pkhuong" "rahul: neither do you know with a \"generational gc\"." nil)
(3472689824 :privmsg "pkhuong" "and if you've read the snippet I just quoted, you do know now." nil)
(3472689856 :privmsg "rahul" "oh ok" nil)
(3472689871 :privmsg "rahul" "so it's kind of like bytes consed" nil)
(3472689882 :privmsg "rahul" "seems reasonable enough" nil)
(3472689900 :action "rahul" "is a little less scared by python's GC now" nil)
(3472689909 :privmsg "rahul" "but the lack of threadability is pretty lame" nil)
(3472689932 :join "araujo" nil "n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo")
(3472689948 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: well, is not pretty much any combinator made more complex by the fact that there are multiple mechanisms by which a function may get its agruments?" nil)
(3472689972 :privmsg "rahul" "and some of those mechanisms forbid others" nil)
(3472689976 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: no, unless you use *args and/or **kwargs catch-alls" nil)
(3472689980 :privmsg "rahul" "for that specific case" nil)
(3472690022 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: foo(1, a=1) being an error is a major problem" nil)
(3472690038 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: not really, unless you bring me a real life example" nil)
(3472690043 :privmsg "rahul" "(apply foo :a 1 args) is a common idiom in lisp" nil)
(3472690045 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: so, the feature is not a problem if you don't use it ...." nil)
(3472690110 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: can't you use it when it's appropriate and doesn't cause problems? besides, we were initially talking about the flexibility of being able to mix kw and pos. args... and that can be done with any function without it even knowing it" nil)
(3472690114 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: providing defaulting in different ways for different call pathways" nil)
(3472690127 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: trivial in lisp, apparently impossible in python?" nil)
(3472690140 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: maybe you think too much in terms of what you usually do in Lisp" nil)
(3472690155 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: well, doesn't that apply to most things about most non-Lisp languages?" nil)
(3472690178 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: um python has keyword args" nil)
(3472690182 :quit "wakeup" "Read error: 113 (No route to host)" "n=wakeup@koln-5d8154ee.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3472690190 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: oh" nil)
(3472690193 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: this has to do with calling convention" nil)
(3472690201 :privmsg "rahul" "not to do with macros or anything like that" nil)
(3472690209 :privmsg "rahul" "it seems to be fundamentally broken" nil)
(3472690217 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "well whatever you say" nil)
(3472690252 :quit "blackened`" "Client Quit" "n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz")
(3472690261 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: i'm not sure you and i are on the same page." nil)
(3472690262 :privmsg "rahul" "I guess you can manipulate the kwargs directly" nil)
(3472690272 :privmsg "rahul" "oh wait you can't" nil)
(3472690279 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: what do you mean?" nil)
(3472690286 :privmsg "rahul" "you need to figure out what is in the positional args, too" nil)
(3472690316 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: are you even familiar with Python at all?" nil)
(3472690328 :privmsg "rahul" "oh, is foo(x=1, 5) allowed in python?" nil)
(3472690340 :join "benny" nil "n=benny@i577A83ED.versanet.de")
(3472690341 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: no" nil)
(3472690355 :privmsg "rahul" "ok, that kind of makes sense" nil)
(3472690357 :privmsg "drewc" "i thought it was?" nil)
(3472690375 :privmsg "drewc" "so you're not free to mix keyword and positional args freely." nil)
(3472690391 :privmsg "rahul" "yeah" nil)
(3472690396 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "of course not, but you can choose whether you pass an argument as a positional or as a kw argument" nil)
(3472690396 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: didn't you want to do that in lisp?" nil)
(3472690402 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: no" nil)
(3472690404 :privmsg "sellout" "drewc: Maybe Guido used CLIM at some point in the past ;)" nil)
(3472690410 :privmsg "rahul" "um, you asked how to do it in lisp" nil)
(3472690417 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: maybe you misunderstood me" nil)
(3472690430 :quit "Madsy" "\"leaving\"" "n=madsy@fu/coder/madsy")
(3472690455 :quit "Dodek" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "i=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek")
(3472690457 :privmsg "drewc" "sellout: from what i've learned, i'd be surprised if Guido used more than QBASIC before setting out to do python, but maybe RaceCondition is only confusing me." nil)
(3472690482 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: well, the point of python was to be the next generation of BASIC" nil)
(3472690491 :privmsg "rahul" "same goal" nil)
(3472690507 :privmsg "drewc" "well, what the hell were Norvig and Graham on about then?" nil)
(3472690509 :privmsg "soupdragon" "the current crop of contempory language designers seem to think that originality comes form not knowing the origins of any of the current languages that are hip" nil)
(3472690545 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: coping with their lot in life" nil)
(3472690548 :privmsg "soupdragon" "like you learn to make websites in ruby or write something in C then make a new language that's exactly the same but with different keywords" nil)
(3472690559 :privmsg "drewc" "i heard python was an acceptable lisp... but i guess my acceptance tests are stricter :)" nil)
(3472690565 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: it's easier to lie to yourself than to realize that you're stuck with something inferior" nil)
(3472690580 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: neither of the two need to actually write any code any more, anyway" nil)
(3472690625 :privmsg "drewc" "that's true... and only one of them was any good in the first place." nil)
(3472690662 :privmsg "rahul" "yeah, the other one is still trying to follow soupdragon's guide to conteporary language design" nil)
(3472690692 :privmsg "drewc" "funny 'cause it's true!" nil)
(3472690707 :privmsg "rahul" "(if that moniker sticks, people will blame soupdragon for arc's existence)" nil)
(3472690818 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: does python have the ability to introspect the argument names of a function it's calling?" nil)
(3472690855 :privmsg "drewc" "wait... in python you can pass the _same_ arg as a positional or a keyword?" nil)
(3472690871 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: no, it causes your program to crash, apparently" nil)
(3472690881 :privmsg "drewc" "now i'm really confused." nil)
(3472690887 :privmsg "drewc" "i'm going to go play with haskell" nil)
(3472690890 :privmsg "rahul" "oh no" nil)
(3472690899 :privmsg "rahul" "I mean you can't pass it as both" nil)
(3472690906 :privmsg "rahul" "you can pass it as one or the other" nil)
(3472690919 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: yes, you can choose" nil)
(3472690930 :privmsg "rahul" "but if it's passed positionally, you have to remove it from the keyword args" nil)
(3472690931 :privmsg "soupdragon" "drewc heh what" nil)
(3472690938 :privmsg "drewc" "but either/or... it's not in the specification of the interface but rather arbitrary?" nil)
(3472690943 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: what do you mean remove it from kw args?" nil)
(3472690945 :privmsg "rahul" "but I fully expect that there's no way of knowing" nil)
(3472690952 :privmsg "drewc" "soupdragon: i _love_ haskell for playing." nil)
(3472690955 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: if it's already in the keyword args" nil)
(3472690962 :privmsg "soupdragon" "drewc check out linear implicit parameters if you like haskells uniformity and all that" nil)
(3472690967 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: exactly" nil)
(3472690978 :privmsg "rahul" "soupdragon: you mean currying?" nil)
(3472690982 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: what does \"in keyword args\" mean for you?" nil)
(3472690985 :privmsg "drewc" "soupdragon: i learn something in haskell, translate it to scheme, and then if it's useful it comes to work with me in CL form :)" nil)
(3472690991 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: in the kwargs" nil)
(3472690997 :privmsg "soupdragon" "rahul no it's this insane feature that I think beats python in terms of 'wtf'" nil)
(3472690998 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: what is kwargs??" nil)
(3472691011 :privmsg "rahul" "??" nil)
(3472691026 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "you mean the catch-all-kwargs-argument a function can define?" nil)
(3472691031 :privmsg "soupdragon" "drewc that's a nice idea.. scheme as language-designers quarantine" nil)
(3472691035 :privmsg "rahul" "what?" nil)
(3472691040 :privmsg "rahul" "you can't pass it?" nil)
(3472691044 :privmsg "rahul" "oh my god" nil)
(3472691049 :privmsg "rahul" "this gets worse and worse" nil)
(3472691050 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: I can't pass what??" nil)
(3472691057 :privmsg "drewc" "rahul: you can." nil)
(3472691061 :privmsg "rahul" "ok" nil)
(3472691063 :privmsg "drewc" "rahul: you get the kwargs as a dict" nil)
(3472691065 :privmsg "rahul" "whew" nil)
(3472691077 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: yuo get only those that didn't match the define arg list" nil)
(3472691079 :privmsg "rahul" "right, and you can pass it down to another function right?" nil)
(3472691092 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "of course you can" nil)
(3472691119 :privmsg "rahul" "but if you pass both positional and a kwargs dict, you have no clue if your program is going to blow up or not" nil)
(3472691130 :privmsg "drewc" "rahul: yeah, it's a real dict.. this is why APPLY takes 3 args" nil)
(3472691142 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: how come?" nil)
(3472691145 :privmsg "drewc" "(APPLY FN ARGS KWARGS) basically" nil)
(3472691161 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: because you don't know if you violated the calling convention" nil)
(3472691178 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: can you bring an example?" nil)
(3472691202 :privmsg "rahul" "um, the first one I ever gave to you" nil)
(3472691206 :privmsg "rahul" "foo(1, a=1)" nil)
(3472691217 :privmsg "drewc" "is there an inferior-python mode? I have some questions and i don't think RaceCondition can answer them." nil)
(3472691219 :privmsg "rahul" "poof! server dies." nil)
(3472691227 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "well that's crap because if you know what foo takes, you're not going to call it that way" nil)
(3472691227 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: I believe so" nil)
(3472691233 :privmsg "rahul" "M-x run-python, right?" nil)
(3472691248 :privmsg "drewc" "rahul: brilliant, cheers!" nil)
(3472691279 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: how do you know what an arbitrary function pointer's arglist is?" nil)
(3472691297 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: as I said, you think too much in terms of what patterns you usually use in lisp" nil)
(3472691299 :privmsg "rahul" "in lisp, you just need to know the shape of the arglist" nil)
(3472691315 :privmsg "rahul" "in python you need to know the exact names and order" nil)
(3472691334 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: of course you don't, you need to know just the number" nil)
(3472691336 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: saphir whorf... you'd use these 'patterns' too if you knew them" nil)
(3472691337 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: and there's no comparable pattern in python" nil)
(3472691339 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: wrong" nil)
(3472691347 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: you need to know the names and the order" nil)
(3472691352 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "no you don't" nil)
(3472691366 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: you do if you care about reliability of your program" nil)
(3472691380 :privmsg "rahul" "if it's ok for it to crash, then you don't need to know" nil)
(3472691391 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "you're talking crap, sorry" nil)
(3472691400 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: foo(1, a=1)" nil)
(3472691408 :privmsg "rahul" "tell me, what is wrong with that syntax?" nil)
(3472691429 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: give up already" nil)
(3472691430 :privmsg "rahul" "because it causes python to crash depending on what foo is" nil)
(3472691456 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: you are saying that Lisp doesn't crach when you call a function with a wrong number of arguments??" nil)
(3472691460 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "crash*" nil)
(3472691463 :quit "kejsaren" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net")
(3472691464 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: it doesn't" nil)
(3472691467 :privmsg "rahul" "but that's a different story" nil)
(3472691474 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "I know what you mean, but still" nil)
(3472691497 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: it's not a wrong number of args" nil)
(3472691505 :privmsg "rahul" "it's a wrong _combination_ of args" nil)
(3472691520 :privmsg "rahul" "and it's the calling convention that creates this" nil)
(3472691527 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "so how would Lisp handle it??" nil)
(3472691537 :privmsg "rahul" "the problem doesn't exist in lisp" nil)
(3472691537 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "other than throwing you into the debugger" nil)
(3472691544 :privmsg "rahul" "um" nil)
(3472691569 :privmsg "rahul" "23:31 < RaceCondition> I know what you mean, but still  <--- ok, you don't know" nil)
(3472691575 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "if you do (foo 1 :a 1) in Lisp for a function (defun foo (a) ...), there wouldn't be a problem?" nil)
(3472691585 :privmsg "rahul" ". . ." nil)
(3472691621 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: no, if you do (defun foo (&key a) ...) (foo :a 1 :a 1) there's no problem" nil)
(3472691635 :privmsg "rahul" "23:32 < rahul> the problem doesn't exist in lisp" nil)
(3472691643 :privmsg "drewc" "hrm..." nil)
(3472691645 :privmsg "rahul" "lisp has a clear calling convention" nil)
(3472691645 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: but it's a different example" nil)
(3472691653 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: no, it's not" nil)
(3472691658 :privmsg "rahul" "it's a function with one arg called a" nil)
(3472691668 :privmsg "adeht" "RaceCondition: I think rahul means to say that def foo(a=1, b=2): print a, b ... foo(5, b=6) works, foo(5, a=6) doesn't" nil)
(3472691673 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: you're just arguing for the sake of arguing" nil)
(3472691680 :privmsg "drewc" "explicit return? is there a statement/expression dichotomy in python as well?" nil)
(3472691689 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: of course there is" nil)
(3472691691 :action "drewc" "doesn't like it!" nil)
(3472691702 :privmsg "pkhuong" "RaceCondition: the problem is that an argument is *both* positional and named, and you need to know the order of the arguments to see how whether a given call is correct." nil)
(3472691713 :privmsg "drewc" "i don't mind the syntax, strangely." nil)
(3472691717 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "pkhuong: but why is having to know that a bad thing?" nil)
(3472691746 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "pkhuong: of course you cannot do tricky stuff like you probably can in Lisp, but isn't that trivial that Python is different?" nil)
(3472691766 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: because BOTH order and name matter in python" nil)
(3472691767 :quit "mischievous" "\"Leaving\"" "n=mischief@unaffiliated/mischief")
(3472691774 :privmsg "rahul" "in lisp EITHER order or name matters" nil)
(3472691782 :privmsg "rahul" "and, in fact, name doesn't matter at all" nil)
(3472691794 :privmsg "rahul" "just the externally visible \"name\"" nil)
(3472691807 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: Guido wanted to teach, not learn!" nil)
(3472691813 :privmsg "pkhuong" "RaceCondition: more stuff to keep track of." nil)
(3472691816 :privmsg "rahul" "if he wanted to learn, he would have used lisp" nil)
(3472691839 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "pkhuong: I've never hit that problem really" nil)
(3472691870 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: using \"different\" as a synonym for \"less\" is very cute :)" nil)
(3472691875 :privmsg "pkhuong" "but at least now you understand what rahul meant." nil)
(3472691876 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "pkhuong: you're probably seeing this from a FP point of which in which case, yes, it's probably bad how Python does things, but you don't really do a lot of FP in Python anyway" nil)
(3472691892 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: because you've been scared of using things that might trigger that problem" nil)
(3472691900 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: if you're trying to prove that Python is inferior to Lisp, then why bother? I know that already" nil)
(3472691908 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: scared of having functionality that would trigger it, even" nil)
(3472691909 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: you mean FP?" nil)
(3472691918 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: no, I mean using apply" nil)
(3472691931 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: I use apply all the time without problems" nil)
(3472691937 :privmsg "pkhuong" "This isn't related to functional programming. I don't even have an opinion on the topic. At least now you understand what rahul means." nil)
(3472691952 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "pkhuong: yes, but he could still be less of a dick" nil)
(3472691963 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: how many times have you passed both pos and kw args to it?" nil)
(3472691980 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: I don't keep count" nil)
(3472691990 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: you've done it once?" nil)
(3472691997 :action "rahul" "facepalm" nil)
(3472692005 :privmsg "adeht" "RaceCondition: then you have a problem if you try to pass arguments positionally" nil)
(3472692007 :part "Guest44084" nil "n=x@research.suspicious.org")
(3472692016 :join "xristos" nil "n=x@research.suspicious.org")
(3472692028 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: you should NEVER EVER pass both pos and kw args to apply in python" nil)
(3472692045 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "how often do you mix positional and kw args in Lisp, btw? I mean with apply" nil)
(3472692046 :privmsg "rahul" "just like optional and rest in lisp" nil)
(3472692060 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: any time you use OOP" nil)
(3472692071 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: all the time...." nil)
(3472692073 :privmsg "adeht" "rahul: but now think about redefinition where the once non-key parameters turn into key-parameters" nil)
(3472692076 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: make-instance has 1 positional arg and any number of kw args" nil)
(3472692087 :privmsg "drewc" "(apply #'make-instance class initargs)" nil)
(3472692102 :privmsg "rahul" "adeht: that's a change in api" nil)
(3472692118 :quit "Alabaman" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com")
(3472692132 :privmsg "adeht" "rahul: python will let you get away with it, as long as you don't pass the same argument both ways" nil)
(3472692147 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "adeht: your example with foo(a, b) previosly, how does that work in Lisp??" nil)
(3472692148 :privmsg "rahul" "adeht: and you don't know if you are passing it both ways" nil)
(3472692179 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: lisp draws a distinction between kw and pos args!" nil)
(3472692185 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: that is the whole point" nil)
(3472692186 :privmsg "adeht" "RaceCondition: it doesn't work in Lisp, because you can't pass key parameters positionally" nil)
(3472692208 :privmsg "rahul" "you choose one or the other, otherwise, you end up with this mess you have in python" nil)
(3472692219 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "well, but that was my origianl point -- it doesn't work in Lisp and does work in Python (irrespective of the problems caused by it)" nil)
(3472692241 :join "billstclair" nil "n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair")
(3472692252 :privmsg "rahul" "if \"works\" means \"can't figure out whether your program will crash or not\" ok" nil)
(3472692252 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: can't you choose one or the other in Python? if you just pass *args or just **kwargs to apply" nil)
(3472692253 :privmsg "drewc" "wait.... you never know if your arg is in the dict or in the list right?" nil)
(3472692272 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: as the callee?" nil)
(3472692281 :privmsg "rahul" "I don't think you can tell" nil)
(3472692282 :privmsg "drewc" "rahul: yeah" nil)
(3472692288 :join "lpolzer_" nil "n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-238-023.pools.arcor-ip.net")
(3472692296 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: no" nil)
(3472692301 :privmsg "drewc" "the caller gets to choose, it could differ at each call site?" nil)
(3472692315 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: right" nil)
(3472692323 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: it's not my choice to make" nil)
(3472692349 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: apply(fun, [], {...}) or apply(fun, [...], {}), now? what am I missing?" nil)
(3472692358 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "now=no" nil)
(3472692362 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: have you ever used a library?" nil)
(3472692371 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: no, it's my first day programming" nil)
(3472692380 :privmsg "rahul" "apparently" nil)
(3472692387 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "great, I'll continue with PCL now" nil)
(3472692388 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "OK?" nil)
(3472692404 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: if you've ever used a library, you've violated your rule" nil)
(3472692434 :privmsg "rahul" "because you've clearly called a function in it differently than someone else in the world has" nil)
(3472692494 :join "rares" nil "n=rares@174-26-125-138.phnx.qwest.net")
(3472692498 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: I don't know why you are wasting your time on me" nil)
(3472692517 :part "rares" nil "n=rares@174-26-125-138.phnx.qwest.net")
(3472692520 :privmsg "xristos" "rahul: you should start charging for private tuition" nil)
(3472692521 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: I don't see how you think it's rational to provide both choices and then dictate that everyone only use one choice" nil)
(3472692547 :privmsg "rahul" "xristos: people don't pay to learn" nil)
(3472692556 :privmsg "rahul" "they pay to get grades" nil)
(3472692612 :privmsg "rahul" "and any grades I give will be ignored, and anything I teach won't help them do the crap they need to do to get grades in classes :P" nil)
(3472692626 :privmsg "rahul" "e.g., write python code :)" nil)
(3472692637 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: you definitely need teaching in how to teach and generally treat people" nil)
(3472692657 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: who said I was trying to teach you anything?" nil)
(3472692662 :privmsg "sykopomp" "RaceCondition: don't bother, it's a lost cause." nil)
(3472692670 :privmsg "rahul" "I was trying to find something out" nil)
(3472692682 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "sykopomp: he keeps highlighting my name and I don't like ignoring people :P" nil)
(3472692687 :privmsg "rahul" "and the answer was worse than I imagined" nil)
(3472692713 :privmsg "rahul" "sykopomp: don't you have gerd-pcl to reimplement? :)" nil)
(3472692714 :privmsg "sykopomp" "trying to pretend rahul can ever be a functional, empathic member of society won't get you anywhere. That much, I've figured out." nil)
(3472692724 :privmsg "rahul" "haha" nil)
(3472692735 :privmsg "sykopomp" "I tend to ignore what he says unless he tries to communicate it in a way that doesn't make him seem like a douche." nil)
(3472692752 :privmsg "sykopomp" "he starts sounding like a broken record after a while." nil)
(3472692776 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "well, I've wasted 2 hours now, I'll finally get to something meaningful..." nil)
(3472692778 :privmsg "rahul" "sykopomp: your bruised ego is showing..." nil)
(3472692792 :privmsg "sykopomp" "see?" nil)
(3472692800 :privmsg "sykopomp" "it goes on like this :P" nil)
(3472692800 :privmsg "drewc" "kids... please! i'll turn this car around!" nil)
(3472692822 :privmsg "drewc" "sykopomp: you attacking rahul's personality is somehow better then him attacking a wrong idea?" nil)
(3472692823 :privmsg "Adlai" "drewc, why? I think they both enjoy these chitchats." nil)
(3472692842 :privmsg "sykopomp" "drewc: rahul never attacks wrong ideas, he attacks people." nil)
(3472692852 :privmsg "sykopomp" "and I criticize him directly for that." nil)
(3472692861 :privmsg "adeht" "RaceCondition: the thing is.. in CL if you have foo (&key a) and do (foo :a 3 :a 5) you get a sensible result" nil)
(3472692865 :privmsg "drewc" "Adlai: i don't. i was enjoying the learning and the discussion, but sykopomp appears to prefer to talk about rahul than lisp or python" nil)
(3472692891 :privmsg "drewc" "python was barely on topic, rahul is definitely not!" nil)
(3472692893 :privmsg "Phoodus" "._________" nil)
(3472692893 :privmsg "Phoodus" "(--[ .][ .] / #lisp!" nil)
(3472692893 :privmsg "Phoodus" "(______O__)" nil)
(3472692919 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "adeht: in reality, you only need that, I think, when passing on kw-args and merging them, right? you wouldn't literally be calling foo(a=1, a=2)" nil)
(3472692921 :privmsg "rahul" "what the hell was that?" nil)
(3472692955 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: i'm thinking of the simplest case : implementing FUNCALL in terms of APPLY." nil)
(3472692971 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: . . . so you were just being intentionally obtuse..." nil)
(3472692981 :privmsg "adeht" "RaceCondition: you would, because you can.. in Python you'd have to fudge the arglist to make something sensible happen" nil)
(3472692982 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "adeht: so in Pyton, you kwargs={'a': 1}; kwargs.update({'a': 2'}); foo(**kwargs)" nil)
(3472692984 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: you DID understand the use case I was presenting" nil)
(3472693004 :privmsg "rahul" "adeht: you'd have to fudge the arglist in ways you wouldn't be able to predict" nil)
(3472693005 :quit "gonzojive" "Client Quit" "n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU")
(3472693015 :privmsg "rahul" "well, if you eliminated positional args from the language" nil)
(3472693018 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: in lisp it's a simple (defun funcall (fn &rest args) (apply fn args)) ... i can't figure out how do to this in python without a lot of work" nil)
(3472693029 :privmsg "adeht" "rahul: oh right.. it's dicts, can you even do that? :)" nil)
(3472693057 :privmsg "rahul" "adeht: I don't know. RaceCondition got all emotional when I asked him." nil)
(3472693063 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: you get a set of kw args in, and you want to pass those on to foo while defining/overriding a key -- is that what you mean?" nil)
(3472693116 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: no... kw or positional... how do i apply a function directly to the arglist of another function." nil)
(3472693120 :privmsg "adeht" "RaceCondition: can dicts have multiple identical keys?  and do they maintain their order?... ;)" nil)
(3472693131 :privmsg "rahul" "adeht: no and no" nil)
(3472693135 :privmsg "rahul" "heh" nil)
(3472693147 :privmsg "rahul" "adeht: but that's why there's two separate arglists to apply" nil)
(3472693151 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: why is that important? for the sake of shortness of the syntax?" nil)
(3472693161 :privmsg "rahul" "wait a second" nil)
(3472693181 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: nvm, i don't think you're the person i should be asking." nil)
(3472693188 :privmsg "rahul" "how do you get a list of both positional and keyword args passed to you?" nil)
(3472693195 :quit "kwinz3_" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=kwinz@85.125.183.138")
(3472693205 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "def foo(*args, **kwargs), if you mean catch-all" nil)
(3472693206 :privmsg "rahul" "oh, drewc: is that ^ what you are asking?" nil)
(3472693224 :join "madsy" nil "n=madsy@ti0207a340-0191.bb.online.no")
(3472693235 :privmsg "rahul" "what about def foo(fn, *args, **kwargs) ?" nil)
(3472693236 :nick "marioxcc-AFK" "marioxcc" "n=user@200.77.65.198")
(3472693238 :privmsg "drewc" "rahul: no, i'm asking if you can implement funcall in terms of apply without jumping through a lot of hoops." nil)
(3472693247 :privmsg "rahul" "oh, I guess I can just pull a value from args" nil)
(3472693252 :quit "lpolzer__" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-196-235.pools.arcor-ip.net")
(3472693269 :join "gonzojive" nil "n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU")
(3472693269 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: foo(fn, *args, **kwargs) is totally OK" nil)
(3472693270 :privmsg "rahul" "but how do I get the arglist of fn?" nil)
(3472693282 :part "larry65" nil "n=larry@d122-105-194-67.meb12.vic.optusnet.com.au")
(3472693285 :privmsg "rahul" "so that I can put the arg in the right place" nil)
(3472693304 :privmsg "rahul" "and possibly remove from args or move them all to kwargs?" nil)
(3472693341 :privmsg "rahul" "you know, there's only one other language that has this feature, by the way..." nil)
(3472693373 :privmsg "rahul" "at least only one other that I know of" nil)
(3472693400 :privmsg "drewc" "personally, i think haskell gets it pretty close to right... functions only take one argument... live with it. :)" nil)
(3472693407 :privmsg "rahul" "heh" nil)
(3472693413 :privmsg "drewc" "(And then pile on syntax to make it less painful...)" nil)
(3472693432 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: functions only take one arg in lisp, too :)" nil)
(3472693442 :privmsg "rahul" "(and pile on syntax to make it less painful)" nil)
(3472693452 :action "araujo" "points lambda calculus functions only takes one arguments" nil)
(3472693464 :privmsg "drewc" "rahul: that's hard to argue against." nil)
(3472693484 :privmsg "araujo" "i think it is the same for lisp" nil)
(3472693486 :privmsg "rahul" "macros take two, however" nil)
(3472693488 :quit "hugod" nil "n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441045.dsl.bell.ca")
(3472693489 :privmsg "rahul" ";)" nil)
(3472693491 :join "hicx174" nil "n=hicx174@211.44.210.50")
(3472693518 :privmsg "rahul" "(whole and env)" nil)
(3472693548 :join "tolstoy" nil "n=tolstoy@c-98-246-158-241.hsd1.or.comcast.net")
(3472693605 :privmsg "drewc" "no, i'm going to argue against it! Lisp functions take multiple arguments, not a list of arguments, in opposition with VALUES. which is not a LIST of values..." nil)
(3472693626 :privmsg "araujo" "you pretty much can decompose multi-args notation into single-args , because that is how mathematically works , i think several arguments functions are just a notation thing" nil)
(3472693629 :privmsg "drewc" "one can get the args as a list, and one can turn the VALUES into a list ...but ..." nil)
(3472693637 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: they return multiple args" nil)
(3472693639 :privmsg "rahul" "they only take one" nil)
(3472693644 :privmsg "drewc" "blah... this is a boring argument already." nil)
(3472693656 :privmsg "drewc" ":D" nil)
(3472693665 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: &rest is syntax to get back at the one true arg to the function :)" nil)
(3472693749 :privmsg "drewc" "damnit... i know i can make a point about (Defun foo (a b) ...) (foo a) being an error and not returning a curried function, i'm just not sure where i can go from there." nil)
(3472693759 :privmsg "araujo" "as far as i know lisp does like this internally??? , i guess some implementations could work like this, i wouldn't be surprised, i mean, just taking one single argument" nil)
(3472693779 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: the arg passed to foo in that call is (list a)" nil)
(3472693801 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: which the syntax layer determines doesn't match the structure of (a b)" nil)
(3472693823 :privmsg "rahul" "araujo: most implementations work that way" nil)
(3472693845 :privmsg "rahul" "araujo: but they allocate the arg list on the stack" nil)
(3472693853 :privmsg "araujo" "rahul, yeah, this highly reduce complexity in the implementation" nil)
(3472693861 :privmsg "adeht" "that's wrong" nil)
(3472693875 :privmsg "rahul" "araujo: however, they maybe have an optimized entry point as well" nil)
(3472693910 :privmsg "Adlai" "CCL has \"multiple arguments\" -- it passes three arguments in registers." nil)
(3472693925 :privmsg "Adlai" "(when there are more that three arguments, yes, it uses the stack)" nil)
(3472693929 :privmsg "Adlai" "*than" nil)
(3472693943 :privmsg "Phoodus" "but that's implementation layer.  What's the \"logical\" model of what a function takes?  I'm not sure anything says either way" nil)
(3472693948 :privmsg "drewc" "rahul: you are talking about implementation details, i'm talking about the semantics of the language." nil)
(3472693973 :privmsg "rahul" "Adlai: does that mean that apply pops args to fill registers and then calls the function?" nil)
(3472693973 :privmsg "araujo" "Phoodus, \"logical\" model as in \"mathematically model\" ?" nil)
(3472693984 :privmsg "adeht" "Phoodus: the \"logical\" model of CL is that a function can receive multiple parameters" nil)
(3472693985 :privmsg "drewc" "i don't get three stack frames when i call a 3-ary function" nil)
(3472693986 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: I'd say vice versa :)" nil)
(3472694004 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: no, you get one stack frame with a 3-element list" nil)
(3472694007 :privmsg "Phoodus" "araujo: semantic would be a better word, as drewc used" nil)
(3472694013 :privmsg "araujo" "Phoodus, mathematically lambda calculus functions just take 1 argument , and any lambda language should follow that" nil)
(3472694024 :privmsg "drewc" "rahul: there is no list unless i ask for it" nil)
(3472694041 :privmsg "drewc" "rahul: you are confusing &rest with how the implementation actually passes arguments" nil)
(3472694042 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: for apply to exist, there is a list" nil)
(3472694048 :privmsg "drewc" "rahul: bullshit" nil)
(3472694061 :privmsg "Phoodus" "I think also keywords back the list side of the argument" nil)
(3472694069 :privmsg "araujo" "Phoodus, multiple arguments are just syntax sugar" nil)
(3472694076 :privmsg "araujo" "for lambda calculus" nil)
(3472694096 :privmsg "drewc" "araujo: thinking lisp is lambda calculus is the wrong tack, IMO." nil)
(3472694098 :privmsg "Phoodus" "araujo: are you saying that lisp functions == lambda calculus?" nil)
(3472694108 :privmsg "araujo" "drewc, lisp is based on lambda calculus" nil)
(3472694113 :privmsg "rahul" "araujo: no, it's not" nil)
(3472694117 :privmsg "araujo" "Phoodus, ^^" nil)
(3472694135 :privmsg "drewc" "araujo: you need to read a little history my friend.... otherwise the taste of sock had better be a favorite." nil)
(3472694146 :privmsg "rahul" "McCarthy didn't understand lambda calc" nil)
(3472694156 :privmsg "rahul" "never really even tried" nil)
(3472694159 :privmsg "araujo" "rahul, what is based then? , as far as i know , lambda is the whole model lisp is based" nil)
(3472694163 :privmsg "rahul" "(until later)" nil)
(3472694167 :privmsg "drewc" "I know enough lambda calculus to know that lisp ain't it" nil)
(3472694176 :privmsg "araujo" "basic lambda calculus is not that hard :P" nil)
(3472694180 :privmsg "rahul" "araujo: no, lisp is based on lists and symbols" nil)
(3472694191 :quit "Edward_" "Client Quit" "n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-25-223.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr")
(3472694209 :privmsg "Adlai" "and integers, if you're a fan of PicoLisp :P" nil)
(3472694210 :privmsg "rahul" "araujo: basic lambda calculus was way beyond the conception of practical CS at the time" nil)
(3472694212 :privmsg "adeht" "saying that functions only take one parameter is like saying that C programmers use monads all the time, or that the capitalists do their share, knowingly or unknowingly, to further the inevitable social revolution" nil)
(3472694233 :privmsg "araujo" "rahul, you do nothing with simple lists and symbols , lambda calculus help you to work around the lists and symbols" nil)
(3472694236 :privmsg "rahul" "araujo: lisp needed to be understood before they could do lambda calc in software" nil)
(3472694236 :privmsg "adeht" "it's looking for confirming instances of your theory and finding them everywhere" nil)
(3472694256 :privmsg "rahul" "araujo: you don't need lambda calc to compute" nil)
(3472694278 :privmsg "araujo" "rahul, if you remove lambda calculus out of lisp , i doubt you will end up with lisp as it is now" nil)
(3472694294 :privmsg "rahul" "araujo: right. you end up with lisp as it was originally" nil)
(3472694297 :privmsg "drewc" "adeht: that was a very reasoned argument... unfortunately, now i don't know what i believe! :P" nil)
(3472694319 :privmsg "araujo" "rahul, you talking about 57 lisp?" nil)
(3472694338 :privmsg "rahul" "araujo: what were you talking about?" nil)
(3472694339 :privmsg "Phoodus" "araujo: how do keywords fit in your lambda calculus model?" nil)
(3472694342 :privmsg "araujo" "that only mccarthy knew , and wrote the implementation in a piece of paper?" nil)
(3472694343 :privmsg "soupdragon" "I am not sure what 'lambda calculus' means exactly" nil)
(3472694347 :privmsg "Adlai" "I don't see lambda calculus in lisp, just a symbol named \"LAMBDA\"" nil)
(3472694350 :privmsg "soupdragon" "because lisp does have lambda in it.. so what's the issues?" nil)
(3472694376 :privmsg "araujo" "Phoodus, lambda calculus don't define keywords , i guess there could be some way of getting such a thing with lambda calculus though" nil)
(3472694382 :privmsg "rahul" "soupdragon: wave mechanics also has lambda in it" nil)
(3472694403 :privmsg "Phoodus" "araujo: might that be a hint that lisp isn't lambda calculus? :)" nil)
(3472694411 :privmsg "rahul" "Phoodus: no" nil)
(3472694414 :privmsg "adeht" "drewc: was it the monads analogy? :)" nil)
(3472694415 :privmsg "soupdragon" "rahul I don't know what you mean there" nil)
(3472694417 :privmsg "araujo" "Phoodus, read again, i never said lisp is lambda calculus" nil)
(3472694423 :privmsg "araujo" "evidently is not" nil)
(3472694429 :privmsg "drewc" "adeht: yeah :D" nil)
(3472694434 :privmsg "araujo" "though it is based for function application" nil)
(3472694435 :quit "chiiph" "Remote closed the connection" "n=chiiph@190.1.21.180")
(3472694451 :privmsg "Phoodus" "anyway, I've got to replace a failing HD.  I'll let you guys continue splitting hairs :)" nil)
(3472694457 :privmsg "rahul" "araujo: is but not was" nil)
(3472694481 :privmsg "araujo" "well, mccacrthy 57 piece of paper doesn't count here" nil)
(3472694483 :privmsg "araujo" ":P" nil)
(3472694490 :privmsg "rahul" "araujo: does MacLISP count?" nil)
(3472694491 :join "chiiph" nil "n=chiiph@190.1.21.180")
(3472694492 :privmsg "drewc" "lambda calculus is a formal system for function definition and application... lisp is a programming language ..." nil)
(3472694507 :privmsg "araujo" ":|" nil)
(3472694515 :privmsg "Adlai" "drewc, but they're both turing complete so uh uh" nil)
(3472694516 :privmsg "araujo" "drewc, if you can't see relation man ... :P" nil)
(3472694521 :privmsg "TR2N" "isn't lambda calculus turing complete ?" nil)
(3472694531 :privmsg "rahul" "TR2N: yes" nil)
(3472694574 :privmsg "rahul" "araujo: are you saying that using the same letter means that one thing is based on another?" nil)
(3472694580 :privmsg "drewc" "once could compile lisp to lambda calculus, but where would you run it?" nil)
(3472694594 :privmsg "araujo" "rahul, not talking about an implementation here, but about the language" nil)
(3472694597 :privmsg "rahul" "araujo: does that mean that Java is based on APL because they both have a?" nil)
(3472694622 :join "djinni`" nil "n=djinni`@adsl-71-142-227-255.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net")
(3472694628 :privmsg "Adlai" "araujo, CL as a language can do things that the lambda calculus can't" nil)
(3472694631 :privmsg "araujo" "i think this is not difficult to understand or find out there, that lisp is a lambda calculus based language" nil)
(3472694633 :privmsg "rahul" "araujo: the language in what year?" nil)
(3472694640 :privmsg "rahul" "Adlai: that's not true" nil)
(3472694644 :privmsg "araujo" "Adlai, mm.. evidently, but i don't argue that" nil)
(3472694647 :privmsg "Adlai" "(get-internal-real-time) => 9005117016" nil)
(3472694654 :privmsg "rahul" "Adlai: lambda calc cal do anything a computer can" nil)
(3472694664 :privmsg "araujo" "rahul, why you need year?" nil)
(3472694669 :privmsg "rahul" "Adlai: you can describe that in lambda calc" nil)
(3472694673 :privmsg "Adlai" "what's the lambda calc for get-internal-real-time? or for drakma:http-request?" nil)
(3472694675 :privmsg "TR2N" "ah...this is the original paper: http://www.cs.nccu.edu.tw/~chenk/Courses/PL/Papers/Mccarthy-Lisp60.pdf" nil)
(3472694678 :privmsg "araujo" "the lisp language as originally spread" nil)
(3472694684 :privmsg "rahul" "araujo: because it's different in different years" nil)
(3472694698 :privmsg "adeht" "drewc: it's great to have another way of interpreting something.. but rather sad to claim it's the only way when there's obviously a competing interpretation that fits the bill" nil)
(3472694731 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "adeht: you talked about how to implement funcall with apply in python?" nil)
(3472694739 :privmsg "adeht" "RaceCondition: no" nil)
(3472694766 :privmsg "rahul" "araujo: McCarthy himself said that lisp is not based on lambda calc" nil)
(3472694781 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: that was me... but i gave up.. why, have you a link or some code?" nil)
(3472694782 :privmsg "rahul" "araujo: and McCarthy didn't know lambda calc when he invented lisp" nil)
(3472694806 :privmsg "rahul" "araujo: so I can't see how you think that McCarthy is wrong about how he designed his own language" nil)
(3472694818 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: well, now I see what funcall means in Lisp, why would you ever want to do that in Python? it's built in to the syntax" nil)
(3472694829 :quit "djinni`" "Client Quit" "n=djinni`@adsl-71-142-227-255.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net")
(3472694830 :privmsg "araujo" "TR2N, that paper already uses lambda calculus" nil)
(3472694835 :privmsg "araujo" "rahul, ^^" nil)
(3472694841 :privmsg "rahul" "araujo: wrong" nil)
(3472694849 :privmsg "araujo" "rahul, it is there" nil)
(3472694851 :join "djinni`" nil "n=djinni`@adsl-71-142-227-255.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net")
(3472694852 :privmsg "rahul" "araujo: nope" nil)
(3472694858 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: but if you need it, def funcall(fn, *args, **kwargs): return fn(*args, **kwargs)" nil)
(3472694861 :privmsg "araujo" "i am reading it now" nil)
(3472694861 :quit "ikki" "Read error: 113 (No route to host)" "n=ikki@189.139.217.33")
(3472694869 :privmsg "rahul" "araujo: then you are reading it incorrectly" nil)
(3472694886 :privmsg "araujo" "rahul, so lisp doesn't use lambda calculus?" nil)
(3472694898 :privmsg "rahul" "\"use\"?" nil)
(3472694903 :privmsg "drewc" "araujo: what do you mean \"use\"" nil)
(3472694905 :privmsg "rahul" "what does that even mean?" nil)
(3472694912 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: is that what you meant? or did I misunderstand you?" nil)
(3472694917 :privmsg "TR2N" "rahul: Alonzo Church's \"The Calculi of Lambda-Conversion\" is the 3rd bibliographic reference on 1958 McCarthy original LISP paper. (check page 195/12)" nil)
(3472694919 :privmsg "rahul" "where does lisp use anything?" nil)
(3472694923 :privmsg "araujo" "TR2N, hehehe" nil)
(3472694934 :privmsg "araujo" "TR2N, no point to argue with him about this ..." nil)
(3472694939 :privmsg "rahul" "TR2N: he didn't understand the paper" nil)
(3472694941 :action "araujo" "guesses he should get more caffeine" nil)
(3472694946 :privmsg "Adlai" "rahul, (defpackage #:lisp (:use :cl)) right there! :D" nil)
(3472694947 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: yeah, that's what i'm looking for, and that's what i thought." nil)
(3472694952 :privmsg "rahul" "heh" nil)
(3472694953 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: thanks!" nil)
(3472694970 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: so does this change any of your opinions?" nil)
(3472694989 :privmsg "rahul" "TR2N: he didn't learn lambda calc, he just read the paper" nil)
(3472694999 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: I couldn't really follow what people were saying/meaning before" nil)
(3472695000 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: no, it's exactly the hack i thought it had to be" nil)
(3472695017 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: but why is it a hack? what should it be instead?" nil)
(3472695068 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: * and ** are just sort of splat/collect operators depending on syntactic context" nil)
(3472695076 :quit "Phoodus" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net")
(3472695091 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: you have two argument lists, and no way to know which one your argument is in!" nil)
(3472695103 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: this doesn't matter for the most part," nil)
(3472695104 :join "kenanb" nil "n=kenanb@88.238.35.158")
(3472695119 :privmsg "drewc" "but when you have functions that manipulate and return functions," nil)
(3472695122 :privmsg "rahul" "(until you try to modify the args)" nil)
(3472695126 :privmsg "drewc" "it's nice to be able to reason about them." nil)
(3472695135 :privmsg "drewc" "and what rahul said." nil)
(3472695144 :part "tolstoy" nil "n=tolstoy@c-98-246-158-241.hsd1.or.comcast.net")
(3472695149 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: what I was asking before was a real life example of a situation in which the foo(5, a=6) etc problem would show itself" nil)
(3472695151 :privmsg "rahul" "then you have no clue what to modify because you don't know where it is" nil)
(3472695173 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: CL's make-instance" nil)
(3472695184 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: no, not you again" nil)
(3472695187 :privmsg "rahul" "wrapping it to create a constructor" nil)
(3472695194 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: I am not make-instance" nil)
(3472695216 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "why would you need CL's make-instance in Python?" nil)
(3472695232 :privmsg "rahul" "oh, python eschews the factory pattern?" nil)
(3472695252 :privmsg "adeht" "RaceCondition: but there was another issue, that of overriding an argument" nil)
(3472695254 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: I don't really know what you mean by that, but in Python, classes are functions which you can call in any way you like" nil)
(3472695255 :privmsg "rahul" "make-instance is just a factory. any factory has this problem." nil)
(3472695267 :part "keltor" nil "n=keltor@unaffiliated/keltor")
(3472695277 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: it's as if a blind person is asking me what use i have for colour... it's not that i don't want to tell you, it's just that i can't figure out how to frame it in a way that would make sense to you..." nil)
(3472695295 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: maybe you think too much in terms of Lisp?" nil)
(3472695303 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: opening a file, then?" nil)
(3472695321 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: lol, non." nil)
(3472695364 :privmsg "rahul" "(defun open-log-file (file &rest options) (apply #'open file :direction :append :if-not-exists :create options))" nil)
(3472695401 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "oh, OK, I get it now" nil)
(3472695404 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "lol" nil)
(3472695426 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: perhaps you think to much in terms of the insular world you program in, as to assume i know nothing but lisp is a big mistake." nil)
(3472695471 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: maybe this is just a problem of miscommunaction? it's a bit arrogant of you to think I program in some insular word" nil)
(3472695477 :privmsg "adeht" "drewc: many people make that mistake, so he's not very lonely ;)" nil)
(3472695501 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: um, you've demonstrated that you program in an insular world" nil)
(3472695505 :privmsg "soupdragon" "haha" nil)
(3472695521 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: it's not arrogant for you to assume i 'think too much in terms of lisp'?" nil)
(3472695526 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "I guess I have to change my world to match what you say, rahul" nil)
(3472695538 :privmsg "drewc" "adeht: fair enough :D" nil)
(3472695552 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: no, you just choose to define the world as not containing what you haven't seen" nil)
(3472695569 :privmsg "rahul" "and then you argue with anyone else who has seen and done more than you" nil)
(3472695616 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "wtf is this guy's problem" nil)
(3472695628 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "I think I've never seen anybody that hostile on IRC" nil)
(3472695632 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "at least not from day 1" nil)
(3472695649 :privmsg "soupdragon" "RaceCondition: no offense but you are also saying arrogant things and being hostile" nil)
(3472695666 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "soupdragon: maybe you weren't here before..." nil)
(3472695670 :privmsg "drewc" "(from day 1 at that)" nil)
(3472695672 :privmsg "soupdragon" "RaceCondition: also your inability to get this basic stuff about argument lists kinda seems unbelievable to me" nil)
(3472695673 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: I don't bend over backwards to be nice to people who are being hostile" nil)
(3472695683 :join "Adlai`" nil "n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai")
(3472695703 :privmsg "drewc" "rahul: you don't bend over backwards to be nice to anybody :P" nil)
(3472695709 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: you're new here, and supposedly trying to learn" nil)
(3472695713 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: well, ok :)" nil)
(3472695737 :quit "Adlai" "Nick collision from services." "n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai")
(3472695740 :nick "Adlai`" "Adlai" "n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai")
(3472695760 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: you don't earn too many points by claiming that everything they do is somehow flawed and you know better" nil)
(3472695804 :privmsg "rahul" "and when there is something you accept as being better, you claim that it's useless" nil)
(3472695814 :privmsg "rahul" "just because you haven't used it before" nil)
(3472695826 :privmsg "rahul" "of course you've never used something you haven't had access to before!" nil)
(3472695878 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: also, do you know the one other language that has a calling convention like python's?" nil)
(3472695878 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: I don't know where you draw your conclusions from" nil)
(3472695900 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: no conclusions there... those are things you actually said" nil)
(3472695915 :quit "marioxcc" "Remote closed the connection" "n=user@200.77.65.198")
(3472695967 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "rahul: maybe you should scroll up to where this started and realize you were being aggressive right from the start without me even trying to prove antyhing" nil)
(3472695999 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: oh, so I said something to you before you even said anything?" nil)
(3472696013 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "come on, you can't be real..." nil)
(3472696034 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "what language are you using to interpret my sentences?" nil)
(3472696101 :quit "djinni`" "Client Quit" "n=djinni`@adsl-71-142-227-255.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net")
(3472696118 :privmsg "xristos" "RaceCondition: rahul may have a certain way of communicating with people, that doesn't mean his points were not valid" nil)
(3472696157 :privmsg "rahul" "22:33 < rahul> what if you do foo(1, a=2)?" nil)
(3472696163 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: was that me being aggressive?" nil)
(3472696175 :privmsg "soupdragon" "it's not what you said, it's the way you said it" nil)
(3472696208 :privmsg "rahul" "or was me answering no to your question about call-args-limit aggressive?" nil)
(3472696237 :privmsg "rahul" "note that you still haven't answered that question" nil)
(3472696248 :privmsg "drewc" "this is #lisp, not #love...... we're discussing technical issues here... if an idea is stupid it's allowed to be called so... that does not mean the person who came up with the idea is stupid...." nil)
(3472696249 :privmsg "rahul" "you just claimed it was stupid" nil)
(3472696258 :privmsg "Adlai" "sometimes, the flipside of what xristos says applies -- valid points don't make a difference when attitude gets in the way." nil)
(3472696275 :privmsg "drewc" "we all know rahul can be abrasive, but RaceCondition is not helping matters either." nil)
(3472696283 :privmsg "drewc" "he's baiting him!" nil)
(3472696284 :privmsg "drewc" ":D" nil)
(3472696286 :privmsg "rahul" "Adlai: so something is wrong because you don't like the person who said it?" nil)
(3472696297 :privmsg "Adlai" "that's not what I said." nil)
(3472696299 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: cmon, I wasn't even talking to him the last time he kicked in again..." nil)
(3472696327 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: you mean when you called me arrogant?" nil)
(3472696362 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: after you stated that I program in an insular world" nil)
(3472696373 :privmsg "rahul" "00:32 < rahul> RaceCondition: CL's make-instance" nil)
(3472696373 :privmsg "rahul" "00:33 < RaceCondition> rahul: no, not you again" nil)
(3472696382 :privmsg "rahul" "THAT was an attack on you?" nil)
(3472696414 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: did you not say the same to me first, only in different words?" nil)
(3472696444 :join "djinni`" nil "n=djinni`@adsl-71-142-227-255.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net")
(3472696460 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: no, he said that about the whole lisp community :)" nil)
(3472696485 :privmsg "drewc" "\"<RaceCondition> drewc: maybe you think too much in terms of Lisp?\" <--- is what i'm specifically remembering" nil)
(3472696486 :privmsg "drewc" " " nil)
(3472696488 :privmsg "rahul" "we're all stuck on using apply because we're too limited to think about other things" nil)
(3472696537 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: if you learned before opining, you'd know that apply is the core of any languge that has first-class functions" nil)
(3472696550 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: yes, but I wasn't trying to be in any way arrogant when I said that" nil)
(3472696569 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: and, why do you assume i was?" nil)
(3472696575 :privmsg "adeht" "where was that w3c emotion spec again" nil)
(3472696578 :privmsg "drewc" "(can't spell assume without ....)" nil)
(3472696603 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: oh, so me programming in an insular world is not going personal?" nil)
(3472696613 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: you do, don't you?" nil)
(3472696627 :privmsg "benny" "surely this discussion is going to resolve itself in a few minutes" nil)
(3472696638 :privmsg "drewc" "(we all do, of course)" nil)
(3472696652 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: you insist that passing functions and args separately is somehow not relevant to programming?" nil)
(3472696686 :privmsg "rahul" "RaceCondition: it's only relevant in lisp terms?" nil)
(3472696712 :privmsg "rahul" "how do you believe this stuff?" nil)
(3472696741 :privmsg "drewc" "RaceCondition: assuming i only know how to think in lisp... is that personal? I think there is some ego in this room, and i don't feel like playing with it tonight." nil)
(3472696758 :mode "ChanServ" "-o drewc" "ChanServ@services.")
(3472696785 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "drewc: let's just forget it..." nil)
(3472696789 :privmsg "adeht" "<emotion><dimension set=\"myFriendlinessDimension\"><friendliness value=\"-0.7\"/><!-- a pretty unfriendly person --></dimensions></emotion>" nil)
(3472696797 :quit "xenosoz2" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr")
(3472696829 :join "xenosoz2" nil "n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr")
(3472696859 :privmsg "rahul" "adeht: typical w3c fuckuppedness" nil)
(3472696883 :privmsg "rahul" "you define your content possibilities in a parameter to your enclosing tag?" nil)
(3472696943 :join "ace4016" nil "i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com")
(3472696946 :privmsg "adeht" "I've not read that spec yet, so I can't say much about it." nil)
(3472696948 :privmsg "drewc" "that's not _real_ is it?" nil)
(3472696953 :privmsg "drewc" "adeht made that up right?" nil)
(3472696957 :privmsg "adeht" "drewc: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/emotion/XGR-emotionml-20081120/" nil)
(3472696988 :privmsg "rahul" "The names of dimension elements which may occur as valid child elements are defined by the set attribute." nil)
(3472696997 :privmsg "drewc" "that look a little too elaborate to be a joke....." nil)
(3472697009 :privmsg "rahul" "holy crap, it explicitly says that it's designed by a retard" nil)
(3472697032 :privmsg "adeht" "drewc: it's not a joke (in intention, at least).. there's a big field about emotion markup languages" nil)
(3472697154 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: it can be useful to have a standardized language for communicating about these things... for example, studying advertising effectiveness" nil)
(3472697167 :privmsg "rahul" "or psychoactive drugs" nil)
(3472697176 :privmsg "drewc" "adeht: millions of works of art, music, drama, dance, and culture have been created in an attempt to communicate emotion......" nil)
(3472697177 :privmsg "felideon" "ok well this has been entertaining as well as educational.  :) good night." nil)
(3472697207 :privmsg "drewc" "felideon:  saturday night's all right for fightin!" nil)
(3472697260 :privmsg "drewc" "this is neat though.." nil)
(3472697263 :privmsg "rahul" "drewc: indeed. I like to say that a song is an emotion bottled up and served to you" nil)
(3472697274 :privmsg "drewc" "rahul: music sounds how feelings feel." nil)
(3472697278 :privmsg "felideon" "hehe" nil)
(3472697283 :quit "soupdragon" "\"Leaving\"" "n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax")
(3472697283 :part "kenanb" nil "n=kenanb@88.238.35.158")
(3472697288 :action "Adlai" "(push *corn*)              ; all are free to pop" nil)
(3472697360 :privmsg "adeht" "I think this view is too narrow.  irrationalists always stress the signaling/expressive functions of language while downplaying the descriptive/argumentative functions" nil)
(3472697370 :privmsg "rahul" "I really don't get what value these emotion sets have" nil)
(3472697387 :privmsg "rahul" "mostly because they're specified as an attribute!" nil)
(3472697390 :join "emotionml" nil "n=kenan@88.238.35.158")
(3472697399 :privmsg "adeht" "but it's 08:10 so not such a good time debating philosophy ;)" nil)
(3472697429 :privmsg "drewc" "adeht: fair enough, it's 22:10 here and i'm about to have a drink... it would be the perfect time :)" nil)
(3472697432 :privmsg "rahul" "language is pretty bad at expressoin" nil)
(3472697447 :quit "emotionml" "Client Quit" "n=kenan@88.238.35.158")
(3472697453 :privmsg "rahul" "it's designed for description as far as I can see" nil)
(3472697469 :privmsg "drewc" "adeht: is there some reading material you can point me at? I am actually interested :)" nil)
(3472697474 :quit "felideon" "\"ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)\"" "n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net")
(3472697479 :privmsg "adeht" "I meant to saysignaling/communicating" nil)
(3472697518 :privmsg "rahul" "oh" nil)
(3472697552 :privmsg "rahul" "are you talking about communication being directed at the general public vs. directed at a specific consumer" nil)
(3472697563 :privmsg "adeht" "no" nil)
(3472697574 :privmsg "drewc" "adeht: well, i'm of the opinion that language was never meant as ea signaling/expressive medium" nil)
(3472697576 :privmsg "sykopomp" "\"ISSUE: How to specify dates before christ?\" This actually really confused me for a moment until I read the context." nil)
(3472697606 :quit "lusory" "\"leaving\"" "n=bart@bb119-74-197-254.singnet.com.sg")
(3472697613 :privmsg "adeht" "drewc: I'm a big Popper fan" nil)
(3472697673 :privmsg "adeht" "he took and developed Bühler's theory about the functions of a language" nil)
(3472697700 :quit "Soulman" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com")
(3472697728 :privmsg "adeht" "I don't remember if the explanations I have in mind were in \"Conjectures and Refutations\" or \"Objective Knowledge\"" nil)
(3472697867 :privmsg "drewc" "adeht: ok, i'm deep in the wikipedia now... seems right up my alley." nil)
(3472697932 :privmsg "adeht" "drewc: argumentative use always implies descriptive use always implies communicative use always implies signaling use" nil)
(3472698017 :privmsg "drewc" "of course yeah... that's very true" nil)
(3472698021 :privmsg "drewc" "hrm" nil)
(3472698104 :privmsg "adeht" "drewc: but it doesn't go in the reverse direction.. in art there's a lot of talk about self-expression (signal) and such, downplaying feedback (communication), describing something on a rational level, or even making an argument" nil)
(3472698147 :privmsg "adeht" "the same in programming.. I cringe when people talk about \"expressivity\"" nil)
(3472698161 :privmsg "adeht" "when they actually mean \"descriptivity\".. programs describe processes!" nil)
(3472698184 :privmsg "drewc" "but programmers express programs" nil)
(3472698187 :privmsg "sykopomp" "adeht: ^" nil)
(3472698194 :privmsg "sykopomp" "drewc beat me to it :\\" nil)
(3472698196 :privmsg "adeht" "drewc: yes, description always implies expression" nil)
(3472698206 :join "mishoo" nil "n=mishoo@79.112.112.195")
(3472698220 :privmsg "adeht" "but expression does not always imply description.." nil)
(3472698231 :privmsg "drewc" "right, gotcha" nil)
(3472698246 :privmsg "drewc" "that's important...." nil)
(3472698278 :privmsg "adeht" "so they downplay important parts.. kind of like talking about \"readability\" instead of \"understandability\"" nil)
(3472698303 :quit "konr`" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=user@189.98.83.62")
(3472698319 :join "konr`" nil "n=user@189.98.83.62")
(3472698368 :privmsg "adeht" "and so many Python people care about their \"clean\" syntax but don't care about syntactic abstractions" nil)
(3472698396 :privmsg "drewc" "the ability for a language to describe processes is much more important than the ability of a programmer to express programs in that language." nil)
(3472698420 :privmsg "adeht" "but I'm saying too much w/o making explicit my reasons for saying it.. so" nil)
(3472698449 :join "gibranian" nil "n=gibrania@88.238.36.87")
(3472698533 :privmsg "adeht" "drewc: expression is the stuff for turing equivalence.. communication and description are the stuff for high-level languages" nil)
(3472698582 :privmsg "drewc" "yeah, makes a lot of sense." nil)
(3472698654 :quit "smithzv" "\"leaving\"" "n=smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net")
(3472698830 :join "kwinz3_" nil "n=kwinz@85.125.183.138")
(3472698855 :privmsg "Ralith" "python people think of their syntax as clean? O.o" nil)
(3472698862 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472698870 :join "slather" nil "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472698909 :privmsg "adeht" "Ralith: have you not heard the claim that Python is executable pseudocode?  even Norvig makes it" nil)
(3472698926 :privmsg "adeht" "of course, pseudocode is usually fairly low level, so it fits python ;)" nil)
(3472698966 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "\"Pseudocode is a compact and informal high-level description of a computer programming algorithm\" from wiki" nil)
(3472698975 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472698976 :privmsg "Ralith" "*Norvig* made that claim?" nil)
(3472698979 :privmsg "Ralith" "that doesn't sound right" nil)
(3472698980 :privmsg "adeht" "RaceCondition: yes, in the sense that it's not assembly" nil)
(3472698984 :join "slather" nil "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472699022 :privmsg "adeht" "Ralith: http://www.archive.org/details/scipy09_day1_03-Peter_Norvig" nil)
(3472699063 :privmsg "Ralith" "I guess he was playing to the audience?" nil)
(3472699121 :privmsg "adeht" "Ralith: he's been \"playing\" that for a while now.. I have way too much respect for him to assume insincerity" nil)
(3472699199 :quit "mattrepl" nil "n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net")
(3472699261 :quit "gruseom" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net")
(3472699592 :privmsg "Ralith" "adeht: well, in a world where C-derivatives are dominant, I suppose it's a perfectly reasonable statement." nil)
(3472699603 :privmsg "rahul" "Pascal is executable pseudocode" nil)
(3472699612 :privmsg "rahul" "BASIC is executable pseudocode" nil)
(3472699619 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472699627 :join "slather" nil "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472699632 :privmsg "rahul" "but only if your pseudocode has the structure of algol" nil)
(3472699658 :privmsg "rahul" "lisp is executable pseudocode for any language structure :)" nil)
(3472699667 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
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(3472699824 :quit "cmeow" "Excess Flood" "i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org")
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(3472699932 :privmsg "gibranian" "ok, does tonights flood cause this registration request?" nil)
(3472699947 :privmsg "gibranian" "hmm, they seem to be still flooding" nil)
(3472699971 :privmsg "sykopomp" "gibranian: yeah." nil)
(3472699983 :join "konr``" nil "n=user@189.98.61.161")
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(3472700085 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472700088 :privmsg "gibranian" "sykopomp: btw, are you the author of sheeple" nil)
(3472700092 :join "slather" nil "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472700100 :privmsg "sykopomp" "gibranian: partially, yes." nil)
(3472700101 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
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(3472700116 :quit "mishoo" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=mishoo@79.112.112.195")
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(3472700133 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472700138 :action "Adlai" "is the other part" nil)
(3472700142 :join "slather" nil "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472700151 :privmsg "sykopomp" "s/other part/cancerous tumor/" nil)
(3472700151 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472700153 :privmsg "sykopomp" ">_>" nil)
(3472700158 :join "slather" nil "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472700160 :privmsg "Adlai" "hey now" nil)
(3472700164 :quit "fractalis" "Remote closed the connection" "n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com")
(3472700165 :privmsg "sykopomp" "Adlai: :D" nil)
(3472700167 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472700172 :quit "leo2007" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3472700174 :join "slather" nil "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
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(3472700206 :join "slather" nil "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472700212 :privmsg "sykopomp" "gibranian: any particular reason? :P" nil)
(3472700215 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
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(3472700291 :privmsg "gibranian" "sykopomp: it seems to be a pretty good work, i watched the videos, but i haven't find time to try it" nil)
(3472700301 :join "fractalis" nil "n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com")
(3472700344 :privmsg "sykopomp" "gibranian: :D" nil)
(3472700383 :privmsg "Adlai" "gibranian, there's a mailing list, if you're interested in getting (occasional) updates about it" nil)
(3472700470 :privmsg "gibranian" "Adlai: i remember reading an hypertext documentation on sheeple but i can't find it now, there is only the pdf manual" nil)
(3472700484 :privmsg "gibranian" "did you change the project homepage?" nil)
(3472700495 :privmsg "Adlai" "gibranian, http://sykosomatic.org/sheeple/" nil)
(3472700503 :privmsg "sykopomp" "^" nil)
(3472700510 :privmsg "Adlai" "there's an HTML work-in-progress manual at http://sykosomatic.org/sheeple/documentation/" nil)
(3472700530 :privmsg "sykopomp" "wtf it's still using 3.0.2" nil)
(3472700536 :action "sykopomp" "updates that." nil)
(3472700587 :privmsg "adeht" "the other day I was talking about the terrible UI for google groups but couldn't show an example.. here is one: http://i.imgur.com/viMjC.png" nil)
(3472700625 :privmsg "sykopomp" "manual updated :P" nil)
(3472700724 :privmsg "gibranian" "ah ok, thanks guys, i'll dive deeper within the docs before asking any particular questions ;)" nil)
(3472700747 :privmsg "sykopomp" "feel free to ask anyway :P" nil)
(3472700768 :privmsg "sykopomp" "the docs aren't quite complete yet >_>" nil)
(3472700850 :quit "sepult" "Remote closed the connection" "n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-51.netcologne.de")
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(3472700991 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
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(3472701001 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
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(3472701011 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472701018 :join "slather" nil "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472701020 :privmsg "Adlai" "Xach, slyrus, maybe it's time for +r" nil)
(3472701021 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472701024 :quit "konr`" "Connection timed out" "n=user@189.98.83.62")
(3472701028 :join "slather" nil "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472701031 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472701031 :quit "xenosoz2" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr")
(3472701038 :join "slather" nil "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472701041 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472701045 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "what's he doing?" nil)
(3472701046 :join "xenosoz2" nil "n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr")
(3472701048 :join "slather" nil "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472701051 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472701059 :join "slather" nil "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472701062 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472701068 :privmsg "Adlai" "I'm guessing it's part of #gnaa's clonebot attack" nil)
(3472701069 :join "slather" nil "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472701071 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472701078 :join "slather" nil "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472701081 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472701085 :join "sepult" nil "n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-51.netcologne.de")
(3472701089 :join "slather" nil "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472701090 :mode "ChanServ" "+o Zhivago" "ChanServ@services.")
(3472701092 :quit "slather" "Excess Flood" "n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org")
(3472701093 :mode "Zhivago" "+i" "n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com")
(3472701107 :privmsg "slyrus" "damn channel ban list" nil)
(3472701113 :privmsg "Adlai" "hm" nil)
(3472701114 :privmsg "Adlai" "l" nil)
(3472701135 :privmsg "slyrus" "thanks Zhivago" nil)
(3472701150 :privmsg "Adlai" "ah good idea Zhivago, thank you." nil)
(3472701189 :mode "Zhivago" "-b %Bacta!*@*" "n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com")
(3472701206 :mode "Zhivago" "+b slather!*@*" "n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com")
(3472701211 :mode "Zhivago" "-i" "n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com")
(3472701267 :privmsg "gibranian" "is deepfire a flooder or a lisper?" nil)
(3472701284 :privmsg "sykopomp" "depends on the weather." nil)
(3472701296 :privmsg "sykopomp" "but he actually contributes to discussion here at times :)" nil)
(3472701306 :join "bitflip" nil "n=user@ip98-184-186-177.tu.ok.cox.net")
(3472701324 :privmsg "Adlai" "you mean _deepfire ? He's the guy behind https://launchpad.net/desire" nil)
(3472701346 :privmsg "gibranian" "he sent a private message saying he is making a mental map of lispers and if i am offended to his previous message, but i didn't get any previous message :)" nil)
(3472701364 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Let me know if you come up with a more appropriate ban." nil)
(3472701716 :privmsg "adeht" "drewc: http://www.ditext.com/popper/lbp.html .. ('spose my use of `signal' was misplaced, he uses it for the communicative function)" nil)
(3472701920 :join "isismelting" nil "n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net")
(3472702250 :join "pemryan" nil "n=pem@159.226.35.246")
(3472702260 :quit "Dra`vi" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com")
(3472702715 :join "mishoo" nil "n=mishoo@79.112.112.195")
(3472702717 :privmsg "drewc" "adeht: \"We do not argue with a thermometer.\"" nil)
(3472703105 :quit "skeptical_p" "Remote closed the connection" "n=rondev@109.67.7.24")
(3472703242 :privmsg "adeht" ";)" nil)
(3472703339 :quit "madsy" "\"leaving\"" "n=madsy@fu/coder/madsy")
(3472703380 :join "pem" nil "n=pem@159.226.35.246")
(3472703386 :quit "cools" "\"sleep\"" "n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com")
(3472703418 :quit "pemryan" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=pem@159.226.35.246")
(3472703548 :quit "Adlai" "\"work\"" "n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai")
(3472703669 :join "mjsor" nil "n=mjsor@75-93-57-35.war.clearwire-wmx.net")
(3472703779 :join "mathrick" nil "n=mathrick@eiy66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl")
(3472703899 :join "sadiquea" nil "n=sadiquea@122.172.47.65")
(3472704307 :join "mrSpec" nil "n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec")
(3472704621 :join "CBro2007" nil "n=manukaul@c-ac98e253.026-209-73746f13.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se")
(3472704669 :privmsg "CBro2007" "was wondering if anyone here uses an editor other than emacs and uses Macosx?" nil)
(3472704688 :privmsg "CBro2007" "or is emacs the way to go" nil)
(3472704711 :privmsg "xristos" "emacs is the way to go" nil)
(3472704800 :privmsg "CBro2007" "k" nil)
(3472704814 :privmsg "CBro2007" "I am just wondering about doing a course in Functional Programming" nil)
(3472704821 :privmsg "CBro2007" "and they seem to be using ML" nil)
(3472704843 :privmsg "CBro2007" "I had done some SCHEME ages ago ... so wondering if Common Lisp would be a good language to learn and use" nil)
(3472704868 :privmsg "xristos" "that depends on what you want to achieve" nil)
(3472704879 :privmsg "CBro2007" "I mean how does Common Lisp compare to languages like Haskell, ML etc?" nil)
(3472704880 :privmsg "xristos" "common lisp is not particularly focused on functional programming" nil)
(3472704888 :privmsg "CBro2007" "ah ok" nil)
(3472704889 :privmsg "sykopomp" "Seeing SCHEME in all caps and Lisp with regular capitalization is a novel experience for me." nil)
(3472704891 :privmsg "CBro2007" "I didn't know that" nil)
(3472704903 :privmsg "xristos" "CBro2007: that does not mean that you can not program in a functional style" nil)
(3472704912 :privmsg "xristos" "common lisp is multiparadigm" nil)
(3472704938 :privmsg "CBro2007" "xristos: what I meant was that do the other languages like ML and Haskell then force you to only using the functional paradigm?" nil)
(3472704953 :privmsg "xristos" "pretty much" nil)
(3472704976 :privmsg "CBro2007" "So you would say that common lisp is complete in many ways?" nil)
(3472704988 :privmsg "CBro2007" "like its a complete programming language and you can code anything in it" nil)
(3472704991 :privmsg "xristos" "i would say common lisp is more practical" nil)
(3472704992 :privmsg "xristos" "yes" nil)
(3472704994 :privmsg "CBro2007" "or does it have limitations?" nil)
(3472705000 :privmsg "CBro2007" "k" nil)
(3472705020 :privmsg "CBro2007" "and learning common lisp... would that help me understand languages like ML too?" nil)
(3472705039 :privmsg "CBro2007" "I mean the functional aspects of it" nil)
(3472705059 :privmsg "sykopomp" "just learn haskell" nil)
(3472705091 :privmsg "xristos" "CBro2007: if you want to understand ML, learn ML" nil)
(3472705116 :privmsg "CBro2007" "well here is the thing..." nil)
(3472705127 :privmsg "mle" "the type system is very different" nil)
(3472705148 :privmsg "CBro2007" "there is a prof with whom I want to do some research work who has written an OO database in Common Lisp" nil)
(3472705154 :privmsg "CBro2007" "and he loves Common Lisp :)" nil)
(3472705173 :privmsg "CBro2007" "and the closest I get to that language is scheme I would say" nil)
(3472705199 :privmsg "CBro2007" "so he keeps getting students who write Java extensions to his code but don't help him alter it in a major way" nil)
(3472705221 :privmsg "xristos" "well if you want to do that, learn common lisp" nil)
(3472705251 :privmsg "gibranian" "CBro2007: i think being multiparadigm is not about completeness." nil)
(3472705253 :privmsg "CBro2007" "I always was under the impression that common lisp is a functional style language" nil)
(3472705269 :privmsg "xristos" "you can program in a functional style" nil)
(3472705278 :privmsg "CBro2007" "so the functional programming course uses ML though" nil)
(3472705284 :privmsg "xristos" "but you can also do imperative or OO" nil)
(3472705294 :privmsg "CBro2007" "Yeah I heard" nil)
(3472705302 :privmsg "CBro2007" "I got the book called \"Practical common Lisp\"" nil)
(3472705310 :privmsg "CBro2007" "because I think someone here on the channel recommended it" nil)
(3472705319 :privmsg "CBro2007" "will go through that in my break and learn from there" nil)
(3472705327 :privmsg "CBro2007" "thats a good resource to start with yeah?" nil)
(3472705329 :privmsg "xristos" "that is a good way to proceed" nil)
(3472705388 :privmsg "CBro2007" "ok just that I am not familiar with Emacs either" nil)
(3472705405 :privmsg "CBro2007" "so I figure as long as there is some editor that can do bracket matching that would be a great help" nil)
(3472705410 :join "madsy" nil "n=madsy@ti0207a340-0321.bb.online.no")
(3472705412 :privmsg "xristos" "since you are on osx, have a look at http://trac.clozure.com/ccl" nil)
(3472705437 :privmsg "xristos" "it has a cocoa ide that you can use to get up to speed quickly and try the examples in the book" nil)
(3472705455 :privmsg "xristos" "you don't need to dive into emacs immediatelly if you are not already familiar with it" nil)
(3472705468 :privmsg "CBro2007" "ok" nil)
(3472705476 :privmsg "CBro2007" "there are apparently some neat things about using Emacs though" nil)
(3472705488 :privmsg "CBro2007" "like being able to execute pieces of code right from the editor?" nil)
(3472705504 :privmsg "CBro2007" "can I do that in Clozure too?" nil)
(3472705506 :privmsg "xristos" "yes" nil)
(3472705527 :privmsg "CBro2007" "cool" nil)
(3472705528 :privmsg "gibranian" "CBro2007: emacs is not really hard to learn, and believe me, you will eventually switch to emacs if you use cl" nil)
(3472705533 :privmsg "xristos" "there are many more neat things about emacs that you can learn later on" nil)
(3472705544 :privmsg "CBro2007" "k" nil)
(3472705555 :privmsg "CBro2007" "its just the matter of spending time with it" nil)
(3472705600 :privmsg "CBro2007" "just wondering how easy or difficult it is to write a DBMS using Lisp?" nil)
(3472705619 :privmsg "CBro2007" "are there lisp frameworks available out there to do such things?" nil)
(3472705632 :privmsg "CBro2007" "or something similar to Perl's CPAN?" nil)
(3472705639 :privmsg "CBro2007" "for reusable modules etc" nil)
(3472705640 :privmsg "xristos" "have a look at cliki.net and cl-user.net" nil)
(3472705656 :privmsg "CBro2007" "k" nil)
(3472705665 :privmsg "xristos" "if you are looking for something specific, ppl here can point you to frequently used libraries" nil)
(3472705683 :privmsg "CBro2007" "xristos: you think writing a DBMS is hard in C lisp?" nil)
(3472705686 :privmsg "CBro2007" "Common Lisp" nil)
(3472705708 :privmsg "xristos" "i have no idea" nil)
(3472705736 :privmsg "CBro2007" "k" nil)
(3472705892 :privmsg "xristos" "if DBMS falls within your domain, then programming language won't be that important" nil)
(3472705938 :privmsg "xristos" "if it doesn't, common lisp is an excellent choice due to it's interactive nature and support for rapid exploratory programming" nil)
(3472705973 :privmsg "gibranian" "CBro2007: some of the libraries you will find on cliki will probably be unmaintened, so it is really a good idea to look at the time of last updates and ask here about the alternatives you think are relevant" nil)
(3472706005 :privmsg "CBro2007" "I was reading somewhere online that \"Common Lisp is powerful but ugly, Scheme is small and clean\"" nil)
(3472706016 :privmsg "CBro2007" "ok thanks gibranian" nil)
(3472706042 :join "pbusser" nil "n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl")
(3472706057 :privmsg "CBro2007" "xristos: yeah some of the stuff we are looking involves a lot of exploratory type problems and AI programming" nil)
(3472706063 :privmsg "xristos" "CBro2007: that is like asking someone if he prefers blondes to brunettes, language beauty is subjective" nil)
(3472706068 :privmsg "CBro2007" "so I thought Common Lisp might be a good one to learn" nil)
(3472706075 :privmsg "CBro2007" "true" nil)
(3472706079 :privmsg "CBro2007" "I mean I like Perl :)" nil)
(3472706093 :privmsg "CBro2007" "so then every other language in comparison looks CLEAN" nil)
(3472706131 :privmsg "xristos" "well then you'll be pleasantly surprised at how CLEAN lisp is" nil)
(3472706138 :privmsg "CBro2007" "Is Ansi common lisp a good book?" nil)
(3472706156 :privmsg "xristos" "it is ok, written in a more functional style" nil)
(3472706164 :privmsg "xristos" "i suggest you read PCL first though" nil)
(3472706218 :quit "mjsor" nil "n=mjsor@75-93-57-35.war.clearwire-wmx.net")
(3472706236 :privmsg "CBro2007" "ok" nil)
(3472706256 :privmsg "CBro2007" "Is lisp used in companies?" nil)
(3472706271 :privmsg "CBro2007" "I mean do you know of any major implementations solely done in lisp?" nil)
(3472706291 :privmsg "CBro2007" "or is it mostly used in purely academic circles" nil)
(3472706333 :privmsg "xristos" "common lisp is a practical language developed for real world applications and industry" nil)
(3472706344 :privmsg "xristos" "scheme has the academic focus" nil)
(3472706362 :privmsg "ace4016" "autodesk used a variant of it in thier CAD apps; i think orbitz used it as the backend; naughty dog used it in some games; mario team used it on the n64 in the past or so...i'm sure some people use lisp here in hteir jobs as well" nil)
(3472706367 :privmsg "xristos" "now excuse me i have to go to sleep :p" nil)
(3472706372 :join "tcr" nil "n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de")
(3472706392 :privmsg "CBro2007" "ok thanks" nil)
(3472706402 :privmsg "CBro2007" "thanks for all the help" nil)
(3472706414 :privmsg "CBro2007" "hopefully I can start writing some lisp code soon" nil)
(3472706505 :privmsg "drewc" "ace4016: orbitz uses QPX for their backend, which is a product of ITA software." nil)
(3472706522 :privmsg "gibranian" "CBro2007: are you asking all lisp dialects in general or common lisp in particular?" nil)
(3472706529 :join "Kolyan" nil "n=nartamon@95-25-18-12.broadband.corbina.ru")
(3472706535 :privmsg "drewc" "ace4016: ITA also has a reservation system that also contains a lot of CL code" nil)
(3472706554 :privmsg "CBro2007" "gibranian: common lisp" nil)
(3472706568 :privmsg "ace4016" "ah" nil)
(3472706615 :quit "retroj" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj")
(3472706801 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "xristos: where's that CCL Cocoa IDE you mentioned?" nil)
(3472706813 :privmsg "gibranian" "CBro2007: if what you are asking is \"not academic\" reddit is a good example (but thay switched to python for some unrelated reasons recently)" nil)
(3472706858 :privmsg "CBro2007" "gibranian: I hear Python is somewhat similar to Lisp in many ways?" nil)
(3472706951 :privmsg "gibranian" "CBro2007: it is true, it is not truely a lisp since it has a syntax :) but it got many useful ideas from lisp." nil)
(3472706962 :join "mjsor" nil "n=mjsor@75-93-57-35.war.clearwire-wmx.net")
(3472707008 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "gibranian: which ideas, for example?" nil)
(3472707110 :privmsg "gibranian" "CBro2007: i think norvig can answer this question better than me: http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html" nil)
(3472707160 :privmsg "gibranian" "oops, wrong person." nil)
(3472707181 :privmsg "gibranian" "i should've sent it to RaceCondition" nil)
(3472707186 :privmsg "gibranian" "sorry" nil)
(3472707457 :quit "adeht" "\"ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)\"" "n=death@bzq-84-110-250-90.red.bezeqint.net")
(3472707561 :privmsg "gibranian" "RaceCondition: \"Efficiency: Lisp, About 1 to 2 times slower than C++. Python, About 2 to 100 times slower than C++\" ok, i don't know if these statements are still true since i couldn't find the date this essay is written, but date won't matter for most of the essay, i can't really tell more, i didn't use python before." nil)
(3472707744 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "gibranian: yeah, I'm aware of the performance difference" nil)
(3472707778 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "the fact that Lisp is comparable to C++ is amazing actually" nil)
(3472707852 :privmsg "tcr" "It's more a \"can be\" rather than \"is\" relationship" nil)
(3472707965 :privmsg "c|mell" "nowadays gcc can do some amazing things and the best Lisp compilers (i.e. cmucl/SBCL) are not really keeping up" nil)
(3472707992 :quit "mathrick" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=mathrick@eiy66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl")
(3472708130 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "ah, I've read that Norvig's article, gibranian" nil)
(3472708153 :quit "konr``" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=user@189.98.61.161")
(3472708160 :join "mathrick" nil "n=mathrick@109.243.181.16")
(3472708168 :join "konr``" nil "n=user@189.98.61.161")
(3472708234 :privmsg "gibranian" "RaceCondition: i remember test results showing that for some rare cases, cl does much slower than C++ and some rare cases that cl is faster, but usually can be (i think this can be points the dependency to the coder and the implementation) very close in speed but i don't really know if these kind of comparison are really useful in practice. since the conclusion is \"be a better coder, and keep being if you already are\"" nil)
(3472708282 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "yeah, but still, even very good Python code can never cope with C++ code :) in almost all cases, I think" nil)
(3472708294 :quit "mjsor" nil "n=mjsor@75-93-57-35.war.clearwire-wmx.net")
(3472708392 :privmsg "gibranian" "i personally choose trying to write good cl code, trying to learn c++ was a unpleasant teenage experience for me :)" nil)
(3472708438 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "I think C++ was the first language I ever got involved with, after C that is" nil)
(3472708455 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "not that I ever learn to program in it..." nil)
(3472708460 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "learned*" nil)
(3472708527 :join "Dra`vi" nil "n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com")
(3472708652 :privmsg "gibranian" "me, too. and my second unpleasant teenage programmer experience was learning that java and javascript are unrelated :p" nil)
(3472708921 :privmsg "tcr" "What happens when you call (THREAD-YIELD) while holding a lock?" nil)
(3472709092 :privmsg "tcr" "Ah ok I somehow had the idea that a thread-yield is similar to a non-local exit, but actually that's nonsense" nil)
(3472709105 :join "freiksenet" nil "n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi")
(3472709168 :join "Adamant" nil "n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant")
(3472709191 :join "Adlai" nil "n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai")
(3472709515 :quit "RaceCondition" nil "n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee")
(3472709965 :join "dr_maligno" nil "n=dr_malig@95.214.28.127")
(3472710232 :quit "konr``" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=user@189.98.61.161")
(3472710232 :join "Athas" nil "n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk")
(3472710243 :join "konr``" nil "n=user@189.98.61.161")
(3472710306 :quit "GrayGnome" "Client Quit" "n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com")
(3472710567 :quit "sadiquea" "Client Quit" "n=sadiquea@122.172.47.65")
(3472710902 :join "plutonas`" nil "n=plutonas@port-92-195-18-167.dynamic.qsc.de")
(3472711078 :privmsg "fractalis" "I have a philosophical question, why did XML become so popular when s-exp are so much cleaner and easier to work with?" nil)
(3472711105 :join "RaceCondition" nil "n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee")
(3472711160 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Your question is incorrect." nil)
(3472711192 :privmsg "Adamant" "fractalis: because parens scare people and brackets don't." nil)
(3472711200 :privmsg "Zhivago" "No." nil)
(3472711206 :privmsg "Adamant" "Zhivago: No." nil)
(3472711208 :privmsg "Zhivago" "For many purposes xml is a better choice." nil)
(3472711227 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Until you can accept that you will not be able to talk about it in any vaguely intelligent fashion." nil)
(3472711246 :privmsg "Adamant" "in short, if you don't agree with Zhivago, you are wrong about everything." nil)
(3472711254 :privmsg "Zhivago" "You'll just be recycling regurgitated propaganda." nil)
(3472711268 :privmsg "Adamant" "see above." nil)
(3472711270 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Much like adamant is now -- not one relevant thought." nil)
(3472711285 :privmsg "Zhivago" "So, think about why you think s-exps are superior rather than assuming that they are." nil)
(3472711301 :privmsg "Adamant" "then come to my conclusion or you are wrong." nil)
(3472711308 :privmsg "Adamant" "on the Internet." nil)
(3472711323 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Please be quiet until you have something intelligent to say." nil)
(3472711345 :privmsg "Adamant" "Zhivago: let's both take your advice." nil)
(3472711349 :quit "pem" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=pem@159.226.35.246")
(3472711356 :privmsg "Zhivago" "I have been. :)" nil)
(3472711588 :join "Edico" nil "n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico")
(3472711597 :privmsg "gibranian" "Zhivago: i really think s-exps are better because tag style requires writing everything twice :) but it is just the impression i got from the html 10 years ago, i didn't use xml much." nil)
(3472711619 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Well, it depends on what you're doing." nil)
(3472711650 :privmsg "Zhivago" "If you are marking up documents, then tracking parentheses can be difficult. Tags are clearer to see." nil)
(3472711668 :privmsg "Zhivago" "But I think that's one of the least interesting arguments to make here." nil)
(3472711668 :quit "fractali`" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com")
(3472711712 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Although if you want to go down that path, you can talk about the cost of needing to quote all non-tag content in s-exps." nil)
(3472711749 :privmsg "fractalis" "Zhivago: In what ways is XML a better choice for representing data?" nil)
(3472711782 :privmsg "gibranian" "Zhivago: but usually indentation takes care of the tracking part for both, it would be a pain to track down a tagged style if it is not properly indented." nil)
(3472711793 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Well, it's a lot better for marking up text due to the burden of quoting being shifted to the mark-up rather than the text." nil)
(3472711817 :privmsg "Ralith" "okay" nil)
(3472711819 :privmsg "Ralith" "but how about" nil)
(3472711825 :privmsg "Ralith" "everything that is NOT text markup?" nil)
(3472711830 :privmsg "fractalis" "Text still needs to be quoted depending on the context of the data within a mark-up document." nil)
(3472711831 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Another important difference to me is that xml has a provision for separating attributes and content." nil)
(3472711838 :privmsg "Adamant" "which is the use case most programmers care about." nil)
(3472711840 :privmsg "Ralith" "every time people use XML for data storage or configuration..." nil)
(3472711863 :quit "plutonas" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=plutonas@port-92-195-48-129.dynamic.qsc.de")
(3472711901 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Another important difference is that in xml you know what <tag>...</tag> means." nil)
(3472711915 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Whereas the meaning of (tag ...) is completely context dependent." nil)
(3472711980 :privmsg "fractalis" "Well, aside from the aesthetics of mark-up versus parens, I was thinking more along the lines of actual parsing. Wouldn't you say that parsing an sexp is a bit easier than an xml document?" nil)
(3472711981 :privmsg "gibranian" "Zhivago: i'm sorry, i couldn't get what you mean by the last statement." nil)
(3472712034 :privmsg "Zhivago" "fractalis: It's actually quite complicated to parse s-exps, if you're talking about what CL uses." nil)
(3472712041 :privmsg "Zhivago" "gib: What does (a b c) mean in CL?" nil)
(3472712082 :privmsg "Zhivago" "fractalis: But, yeah, it's probably simpler than doing xml right." nil)
(3472712090 :join "Soulman" nil "n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com")
(3472712098 :privmsg "gibranian" "Zhivago: don't get me wrong, i'm not in a position to argue on the subject, i simply literally ask questions right now." nil)
(3472712104 :privmsg "Zhivago" "fractalis: On the other hand, once you have libraries to do it ... why do you care?" nil)
(3472712116 :privmsg "Zhivago" "gib: I am trying to answer your question." nil)
(3472712145 :privmsg "Zhivago" "gib: Is that a function call? Is it a macro invocation? Is it a literal list?" nil)
(3472712172 :quit "saikatc" nil "n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net")
(3472712242 :join "Zephyrus" nil "n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus")
(3472712245 :privmsg "gibranian" "Zhivago: but i think (a b c) in XML would probably mean something else from (a b c) in CL, i didn't think it as the means of evaluation, but in means of style while saying s-exp style would be better." nil)
(3472712257 :privmsg "tcr" "So it seems that (on Linux) SBCL implements its condition variables directly on top of futexes; what are the advantages over reusing what pthreads provides? I guess you get a higher degree of introspectiveness and customizability (e.g. I see that DEADLINEs are heeded in condition-wait which may not be possible if the whole business was passed to C code.)" nil)
(3472712276 :privmsg "Zhivago" "gib: Try rephrasing that without using a word like 'better'." nil)
(3472712306 :join "jtza8" nil "n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-56-227.iburst.co.za")
(3472712336 :privmsg "gibranian" "Zhivago: ok, we can replace better with \"less duplicated\", as i stated before" nil)
(3472712365 :join "dmiles" nil "n=dmiles@c-67-165-120-12.hsd1.wa.comcast.net")
(3472712378 :privmsg "fractalis" "Zhivago: True, once the libraries are there it isn't as much of an issue - but it seems even using a library to parse xml is a difficult endeavour, at least the ones I've used. But, we could even extend the argument to why something like JSON or YAML is easier to deal with than XML." nil)
(3472712386 :privmsg "Zhivago" "gib: Ok, s-exps provide less redundancy in the case where you have few escapes needed." nil)
(3472712412 :quit "balooga" "Client Quit" "n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-151.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net")
(3472712505 :join "kejsaren" nil "n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net")
(3472712513 :join "Sumpen" nil "n=Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com")
(3472712535 :quit "dmiles_afk" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=dmiles@c-67-165-120-12.hsd1.wa.comcast.net")
(3472712555 :privmsg "Zhivago" "gif: The <em>\"man\"</em> looked at the <i>\"dog\"</i>. -- (... \"The \" (em \"\\\"man\\\"\") \"looked at the \" (i \"\\\"dog\\\"\") \".\")" nil)
(3472712577 :privmsg "Zhivago" "gib: I'm not sure why anyone would think the second form is preferable to the first here." nil)
(3472712606 :join "jtza8_" nil "n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-20-155.iburst.co.za")
(3472712701 :quit "Zephyrus" "Client Quit" "n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus")
(3472712733 :join "Zephyrus" nil "n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus")
(3472712819 :join "tfb" nil "n=tfb@restormel.cley.com")
(3472712912 :privmsg "Ralith" "Zephyrus: I'm not sure why anyone would use sexps like that, either." nil)
(3472712924 :privmsg "Ralith" "er" nil)
(3472712926 :privmsg "Ralith" "Zhivago: ^" nil)
(3472712940 :nick "tfb" "tfb|away" "n=tfb@restormel.cley.com")
(3472712941 :nick "tfb|away" "tfb" "n=tfb@restormel.cley.com")
(3472712944 :privmsg "Zhivago" "People who think that s-exps are superior to xml should. :)" nil)
(3472712949 :join "ragflord" nil "n=Owner@71.92.98.86")
(3472712949 :quit "c|mell" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=cmell@202.137.157.253")
(3472712955 :privmsg "Zhivago" "I think they both have different strengths." nil)
(3472712961 :privmsg "Adamant" "or you could just use sxml." nil)
(3472712968 :privmsg "Zhivago" "And you can see why format doesn't use s-exps." nil)
(3472712977 :privmsg "Adlai" "What do people recommend for global lexical variables? I've come across http://www.tfeb.org/programs/lisp/glex.lisp, and I've seen that CCL, SBCL, and CLISP each have their own native \"static\" variables. Any other options I should consider?" nil)
(3472713000 :privmsg "tcr" "what \"static\" variables?" nil)
(3472713020 :privmsg "Ralith" "Zhivago: My complaint against XMLand I imagine that I'm not aloneis not against its use in markup, but its use for things like config files." nil)
(3472713024 :privmsg "gibranian" "Zhivago: would we really need the escaped double quotes in an xml file, can't we just write it as (.. The (em \"man\") looked at the (i \"dog\") .)" nil)
(3472713035 :privmsg "Adlai" "tcr, defglobal on SBCL, defstatic on CCL" nil)
(3472713047 :privmsg "Ralith" "gibranian: you would if you were using straight CL expressions" nil)
(3472713059 :privmsg "Ralith" "I also think that, as you suggest, sexps could be adapted to be a decent markup language" nil)
(3472713065 :privmsg "Adamant" "Ralith: that's most people's complaint about it, and it's usually inappropriate, especially when you want to hand edit stuff." nil)
(3472713072 :privmsg "Ralith" "Adamant: indeed." nil)
(3472713077 :privmsg "fractalis" "gib: If anything, you would have to do (em (quote \"man\")) looked at the (i (quote \"dog\")), since we want the words \"man\" and \"dog\" to be quoted." nil)
(3472713080 :privmsg "Ralith" "which is why I don't understand why Zhivago is going on about how markup is reasonable." nil)
(3472713094 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Adamant: I suggest that you write out my example in sxml. :)" nil)
(3472713120 :privmsg "Zhivago" "gibranian: Because those quotes are part of the text." nil)
(3472713130 :privmsg "tcr" "Adlai: defglobal, at least, is something else" nil)
(3472713133 :privmsg "fractalis" "sxml seems to be the mutated off-spring of sexp and xml" nil)
(3472713139 :privmsg "Ralith" "Zhivago: it should be obvious that gibranian is suggesting that the outermost quotes be implicit." nil)
(3472713146 :privmsg "Adlai" "tcr, I've looked at what it does." nil)
(3472713162 :privmsg "gibranian" "fractalis: nope, this way occurs a problem in usage of quote and real double quotes" nil)
(3472713163 :privmsg "Adlai" "I'm just wondering about the various alternatives to defvar/defparameter" nil)
(3472713167 :join "brandelune" nil "n=suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp")
(3472713187 :privmsg "Zhivago" "So, how would you write symbols?" nil)
(3472713207 :privmsg "gibranian" "fractalis: or maybe not :)" nil)
(3472713235 :quit "wasabi___" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=wasabi@nttkyo377073.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp")
(3472713235 :privmsg "Adlai" "tcr, CCL static variables are http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter4.6.html" nil)
(3472713238 :privmsg "Zhivago" "\"looked at the\" (i animal-name), for example." nil)
(3472713247 :privmsg "tcr" "Adlai: I'm confused, are you looking for global lexicals, or global misc. bindings?" nil)
(3472713256 :join "Phoodus" nil "i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net")
(3472713257 :privmsg "Zhivago" "You have to pay the piper in one direction or the other." nil)
(3472713264 :privmsg "Ralith" "Zhivago: if we're discussing markup, then there is no such thing." nil)
(3472713282 :privmsg "Adlai" "tcr, I'm looking at the alternatives to global dynamic bindings; the description of CCL's defstatic is closest to what I want." nil)
(3472713299 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Ralith: Well, if you want to give up symbols in order to use symbolic-expressions ..." nil)
(3472713316 :privmsg "gibranian" "Zhivago: i think you brought the whole power of cl to xml while we just try to change thy syntax ;)" nil)
(3472713328 :privmsg "tfb" "Adlai: apropos global lexicals there is Ron Garret's stuff, which may be better than mine" nil)
(3472713329 :privmsg "Ralith" "Zhivago: if you're transitioning from XML, then you're not giving up anything but verbosity." nil)
(3472713337 :privmsg "Zhivago" "gib: I'm just asking questions." nil)
(3472713337 :privmsg "tfb" "although I have not really looked iat it" nil)
(3472713344 :privmsg "tcr" "tfb: No it's not better" nil)
(3472713360 :privmsg "Adlai" "I think Ron Garret's thing is a whole new framework intended to replace packages" nil)
(3472713366 :privmsg "tfb" "No, not that" nil)
(3472713370 :privmsg "tfb" "he has that too" nil)
(3472713371 :privmsg "tfb" "waut" nil)
(3472713373 :privmsg "tfb" "wait" nil)
(3472713375 :privmsg "tcr" "Use Rob Warnock's deflex that's semantically sound" nil)
(3472713382 :privmsg "Ralith" "Zhivago: posing it as a question doesn't make it any more relevant :P" nil)
(3472713389 :privmsg "tfb" "This: http://rondam.blogspot.com/2009/08/global-variables-done-right.html" nil)
(3472713392 :privmsg "tfb" "I think" nil)
(3472713397 :privmsg "gibranian" "Zhivago: ehehe, that was a nice one :) but you know what i mean" nil)
(3472713405 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Well, if you want symbolic expressions without symbols, then knock yourselves out." nil)
(3472713421 :join "Joreji" nil "n=thomas@134.61.80.139")
(3472713454 :quit "pbusser" "Remote closed the connection" "n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl")
(3472713457 :privmsg "tcr" "Adlai: DEFGLOBAL, and DEFSTATIC seem to be the same thing" nil)
(3472713458 :privmsg "tfb" "Adlai: anyway, I'd be interested in hearing what you end up using (esp if it's my stuff of course, and if you make any changes/improvements)" nil)
(3472713459 :privmsg "Ralith" "in this case, what we \"want\" is something more practical than XML" nil)
(3472713468 :join "Dodek" nil "i=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek")
(3472713480 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Of course, you might want to consider \"the (old) man looked at the (new) dog.\"" nil)
(3472713496 :privmsg "Zhivago" "I guess you could switch ()'s for <>'s or something less common in text ..." nil)
(3472713526 :join "Davidbrcz" nil "n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr")
(3472713528 :privmsg "Adamant" "unless you're looking at text with a bunch of <>'s in it" nil)
(3472713534 :privmsg "gibranian" "Zhivago: i didn't really question if we can directly use symbolic expressions in xml from the beginning, i just think a syntax derived from s-exp style may fit to xml." nil)
(3472713546 :privmsg "Adlai" "tcr, do you have a link to Rob Warnock's deflex? Should I search c.l.l?" nil)
(3472713558 :privmsg "Adamant" "in which case you're back to the same problem as your examples." nil)
(3472713571 :privmsg "tcr" "Adlai: Yeah c.l.l; make sure it's a recent posting, his old definition had a bug" nil)
(3472713573 :privmsg "Zhivago" "gib: Then the question I would ask is -- how do you clearly differentiate between attribute and content?" nil)
(3472713622 :privmsg "tcr" "Adlai: But to me it sounds like you should (defmacro define-global-variable ... #+sbcl defglobal #+ccl defstatic #-(or sbcl ccl) defparameter)" nil)
(3472713629 :part "weirdo_" nil "i=w@rodney.ltd.pl")
(3472713636 :privmsg "gibranian" "Zhivago: the first element in the form being attribute and others being content?" nil)
(3472713638 :quit "sepult" "\"ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)\"" "n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-51.netcologne.de")
(3472713653 :join "weirdo" nil "i=w@rodney.ltd.pl")
(3472713661 :quit "jtza8" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-56-227.iburst.co.za")
(3472713669 :privmsg "Ralith" "gibranian: I think Zhivago means stuff like <tag attribute=value>content</tag>" nil)
(3472713670 :privmsg "Adlai" "tcr, I'm planning on using defstatic on CCL, setq on clisp, probably defglobal on SBCL, but I'm still looking for a default for other lisps." nil)
(3472713673 :privmsg "Zhivago" "gibrian: Ok, so now you need (em () \"man\")?" nil)
(3472713684 :privmsg "gibranian" "Ralith: hmm, sorry." nil)
(3472713695 :join "leo2007" nil "n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3472713699 :join "daniel_" nil "i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel")
(3472713714 :privmsg "Ralith" "Zhivago: \"if the first element is not a list, then it is assumed to be content\"" nil)
(3472713721 :privmsg "Ralith" "was that really so hard to conceive :P" nil)
(3472713739 :privmsg "tfb" "Zhivago: an alternative has been to say either (em \"man\") or ((em :att val) \"man\")" nil)
(3472713751 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Sure, there are ways to do it." nil)
(3472713753 :privmsg "Ralith" "even if you *did* use that unwieldly syntax, it would *still* be less typing than XML." nil)
(3472713755 :privmsg "tfb" "This requires less typing" nil)
(3472713773 :privmsg "tfb" "which was my consideration when I did  it" nil)
(3472713781 :privmsg "Ralith" "compare (em () \"man\") with <em>\"man\"</em>" nil)
(3472713789 :join "varjag" nil "n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no")
(3472713792 :privmsg "Zhivago" "By this time you've pretty much re-invented xml with lousy quoting." nil)
(3472713797 :privmsg "tfb" "Ralith: yes, I wrote documents in that syntax (by typing them I mean)" nil)
(3472713803 :join "Jabberwockey" nil "n=jens@port-60.pppoe.wtnet.de")
(3472713806 :privmsg "Zhivago" "No, you've let out the quotes." nil)
(3472713806 :privmsg "Ralith" "Zhivago: you must not know much about XML :P" nil)
(3472713811 :join "gicen" nil "n=gicen@adsl-ull-45-190.47-151.net24.it")
(3472713815 :privmsg "Zhivago" "You mean (em () \"\\\"man\\\"\") :)" nil)
(3472713818 :privmsg "Ralith" "no" nil)
(3472713819 :privmsg "Ralith" "I did not." nil)
(3472713825 :privmsg "tcr" "Adlai: You cover sbcl, and ccl; I don't think you actively use any other implementation; just default to defparameter. (What do you want to use this for anyway?)" nil)
(3472713826 :privmsg "Ralith" "because we're not writing CL functions here." nil)
(3472713834 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Yeah, you're not writing s-exps." nil)
(3472713843 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Are you? :)" nil)
(3472713853 :privmsg "Ralith" "they're good enough for me" nil)
(3472713862 :privmsg "Ralith" "lighten up on the straw man a bit." nil)
(3472713867 :privmsg "Zhivago" "As you wish, but I think we've demonstrated the basic point here." nil)
(3472713870 :part "gicen" nil "n=gicen@adsl-ull-45-190.47-151.net24.it")
(3472713888 :privmsg "tfb" "My conclusion was that they are better than XML (based on a fairly large document), but there are syntaxes which are better than them" nil)
(3472713891 :privmsg "Ralith" "that it's trivial to do decent markup in something derived from sexprs?" nil)
(3472713892 :privmsg "Ralith" "certainly." nil)
(3472713921 :privmsg "Adlai" "tcr, it's for the bindings created in defproto; they should be global variable bindings, but not have the shadowing effect that dynamic variables have with threads in lisps nowadays" nil)
(3472713949 :privmsg "gibranian" "would it be better to call them something else, g-exps maybe?(gibrarian expression :) ) that seems to be the real conflict" nil)
(3472713965 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Which is that s-exps aren't clearly superior for cases where xml is appropriate." nil)
(3472713972 :privmsg "Ralith" "Zhivago: nobody ever said that." nil)
(3472713975 :privmsg "Ralith" "again with the straw man." nil)
(3472713991 :privmsg "tcr" "Adlai: What values do the bindings hold?" nil)
(3472713992 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Ralith: I wish you the best of luck with your reading disorder." nil)
(3472713997 :privmsg "Ralith" "in fact, that statement is a truism." nil)
(3472714006 :privmsg "gibranian" "i typed my own nickname wrong :)" nil)
(3472714019 :privmsg "tcr" "Adlai: If you have an explicit reference operator, you can also use defconstant" nil)
(3472714033 :privmsg "Adlai" "tcr, prototype objects" nil)
(3472714039 :privmsg "Ralith" "if you're more interested in being \"right\" than meaningful discussion, though, I guess it's to be expected" nil)
(3472714039 :privmsg "Adlai" "what do you mean by explicit reference operator? :\\" nil)
(3472714048 :privmsg "Zhivago" "gib: Well, I won't argue that you couldn't find something better than xml for most of the cases that it is used in." nil)
(3472714062 :privmsg "Zhivago" "ralith: The problem is that you appear to have missed the original question." nil)
(3472714062 :privmsg "fractalis" "Really, mark-up isn't representing data - its representing how to display data. What I was originally trying to get at, is doing something like (man (age 50) (name \"The Man\")) or even (man :age 50 :name \"The Man\") is a letter better than saying <man> <age>50</age> <name>The Man</name></man>" nil)
(3472714075 :privmsg "tfb" "Zhivago: non-rhetorical question: where is XML appropriate?" nil)
(3472714085 :privmsg "Zhivago" "s/display/interpret/" nil)
(3472714100 :privmsg "tcr" "Adlai: When you do not want to use (setf (symbol-value 'binding) ...), but have (setf (proto-binding 'binding) ...)" nil)
(3472714101 :privmsg "tfb" "My answer: where it is already used so you need to be compatible / there is already infrastructure for it" nil)
(3472714110 :privmsg "Ralith" "fractalis: hell, you'd've got off easy of your XML data was formatted that simply." nil)
(3472714112 :privmsg "Zhivago" "tfb: Well, I think it's appropriate where you're marking up text with information on how to interpret it." nil)
(3472714115 :privmsg "tfb" "(which I am fine with)" nil)
(3472714119 :privmsg "Adamant" "the other problem is that you interpreted the original question as a global statement and not a general bitch about XML." nil)
(3472714121 :privmsg "tcr" "Adlai: (And of course do not want (setf binding ...) to work either" nil)
(3472714140 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Adamant: You've forgotten to be quiet when you have nothing intelligent to say." nil)
(3472714149 :privmsg "fractalis" "Ralith: I know, wouldn't that be grand?" nil)
(3472714153 :privmsg "tfb" "Zhivago: I don't agree with that *other than that it is already widely used there* because I think there are just less painful and richer markup languages" nil)
(3472714158 :privmsg "Ralith" "fractalis: it'd almost be usable!" nil)
(3472714162 :privmsg "Adamant" "Zhivago: get over yourself." nil)
(3472714164 :privmsg "Ralith" "almost." nil)
(3472714167 :privmsg "tfb" "but the \"other than that is is already widely used\" is a big deal" nil)
(3472714176 :privmsg "Ralith" "Adamant: not gunna happen :P" nil)
(3472714179 :privmsg "tfb" "so, actually, I do agree" nil)
(3472714180 :privmsg "gibranian" "anyway guys, this discussion is enlightening for me, but i should go now, thanks for the brain storm :)" nil)
(3472714181 :privmsg "tfb" ":-)" nil)
(3472714191 :part "isismelting" nil "n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net")
(3472714192 :privmsg "fractalis" "gib: Have a good night / morning" nil)
(3472714194 :privmsg "Zhivago" "tfb: Well, the context was \"compared with s-exp\". I am not going to argue that xml is the best possible markup mechanism." nil)
(3472714206 :privmsg "Zhivago" "gib: Good luck." nil)
(3472714222 :privmsg "tcr" "Adlai: I'll go now, have to get something done." nil)
(3472714225 :part "tcr" nil "n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de")
(3472714255 :privmsg "Adlai" "bleh, no minion. no memos." nil)
(3472714267 :privmsg "tfb" "Zhivago: well, I think I probably disagree with that as well, based on having written a document in a sexp-based syntax because it was easier than XML, but one could differ there" nil)
(3472714268 :join "prxq" nil "n=mommer@f051178118.adsl.alicedsl.de")
(3472714292 :privmsg "leo2007" "I need the latest cffi from darcs. But 'darcs get http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/darcs/cffi' gives me 'HTTP error (404?)'. Ideas?" nil)
(3472714300 :join "c|mell" nil "n=cmell@202.137.157.253")
(3472714335 :part "gibranian" nil "n=gibrania@88.238.36.87")
(3472714360 :privmsg "Adlai" "tfb, any specific reasons why glex-value uses the symbol-plist?" nil)
(3472714412 :join "unicode" nil "n=user@95.214.70.162")
(3472714413 :action "Adlai" "is never sure when it's appropriate to use that vestigial limb" nil)
(3472714419 :action "tfb" "has only the most vague memory of that code" nil)
(3472714466 :privmsg "Adlai" "ok. It's very short code, if you feel like glancing at it." nil)
(3472714486 :privmsg "tfb" "Adlai: Based on comments in there I'm guessing it used to use a hashtable but for some reason I changed it" nil)
(3472714519 :privmsg "tfb" "the source code repository currently only exists on backups (the machine died a few months ago) so I can't check just now" nil)
(3472714525 :privmsg "tfb" "sorry..." nil)
(3472714536 :join "grouzen" nil "n=grouzen@91.214.124.2")
(3472714548 :privmsg "Adlai" "it's ok, thank you for your help :)" nil)
(3472714591 :privmsg "tfb" "Adlai: such as it was ..." nil)
(3472714614 :action "Adlai" "is very clueless about this issue, so all advice is helpful" nil)
(3472714632 :privmsg "tfb" "I need to revive all that stuff now I actually use CL again after all this time..." nil)
(3472714659 :quit "daniel" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel")
(3472714661 :privmsg "Adlai" "good to hear that! what has made you pick it up again?" nil)
(3472714737 :privmsg "tfb" "Adlai: having time I think (for ages I was working away from home etc and there was just too much else going on)" nil)
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(3472715025 :privmsg "fe[nl]ix" "leo2007: your darcs may be too old" nil)
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(3472715385 :privmsg "leo2007" "fe[nl]ix: that seems so. I am using wget to mirror the dir but it takes a long time." nil)
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(3472717914 :privmsg "leo2007" ",lisppaste" nil)
(3472717922 :privmsg "leo2007" "lisppaste?" nil)
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(3472717932 :privmsg "leo2007" "yeah" nil)
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(3472718064 :privmsg "leo2007" "i got it." nil)
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(3472720536 :quit "Adlai" "Remote closed the connection" "n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai")
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(3472720997 :quit "Buganini" "Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=buganini@security-hole.info")
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(3472721219 :join "Buganini" nil "n=buganini@security-hole.info")
(3472721471 :join "Adlai" nil "n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai")
(3472721614 :privmsg "Xach" "What's the excitement this A.M.?" nil)
(3472721642 :privmsg "Adlai" "A.M.?" nil)
(3472721645 :quit "kwinz3_" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=kwinz@85.125.183.138")
(3472721701 :privmsg "Xach" "That doesn't sound exciting." nil)
(3472721726 :privmsg "Adlai" "oh" nil)
(3472721728 :privmsg "mle" "almost 5am; time for sleep." nil)
(3472721749 :action "Adlai" "saw an \"about\" before \"this\" for some reason and was very confused" nil)
(3472721785 :privmsg "Adlai" "it's not fair to through acronyms at me right after a large late lunch on an unusually hot afternoon" nil)
(3472721791 :join "Guthur" nil "n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com")
(3472721812 :action "Xach" "throughs a large fish at Adlai" nil)
(3472721869 :privmsg "stassats" "it's 15am and i haven't wrote a line of lisp code" nil)
(3472721876 :join "kwinz3_" nil "i=kwinz@213142123106.public.telering.at")
(3472721896 :privmsg "Guthur" "not surprised with flying fish around" nil)
(3472721905 :privmsg "Guthur" "quite a distraction, heh" nil)
(3472721922 :privmsg "stassats" "you are on a boat too?" nil)
(3472721961 :privmsg "Guthur" "hehe, ya, sure wasn't that the world domination plan" nil)
(3472721966 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Probably sailing the seas of Uranus." nil)
(3472721972 :privmsg "Zhivago" "Given that it's 15am." nil)
(3472721980 :privmsg "Guthur" "or did it change to planes" nil)
(3472721995 :join "fiveop" nil "n=fiveop@g229076065.adsl.alicedsl.de")
(3472722058 :quit "Jabberwockey" "Client Quit" "n=jens@port-60.pppoe.wtnet.de")
(3472722059 :privmsg "Adlai" "argh, s/ough/ow/" nil)
(3472722059 :privmsg "Adlai" "minion, memo for minion: thwap Adlai whenever you get back in here." nil)
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(3472729794 :join "beach" nil "n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-51-118.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr")
(3472729798 :privmsg "beach" "Good afternoon!" nil)
(3472729839 :join "tcr" nil "n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de")
(3472729934 :privmsg "tcr" "specbot: where's minion?" nil)
(3472730066 :privmsg "Guthur" "welcome back beach, long time no see" nil)
(3472730125 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "does anyone use happen to use the Clozure CL IDE on Mac?" nil)
(3472730162 :privmsg "beach" "Guthur: Thanks!  (I was on as plage some)." nil)
(3472730177 :privmsg "Guthur" "thats you?" nil)
(3472730181 :privmsg "Guthur" "never realised that" nil)
(3472730195 :privmsg "beach" "Guthur: Er, beach, spiagga, plage;  they all mean the same thing." nil)
(3472730204 :privmsg "Guthur" "hehe" nil)
(3472730222 :privmsg "Guthur" "Keeping us on our toes" nil)
(3472730222 :privmsg "Adlai" "RaceCondition, no, but if you are, you may find http://tclispers.org/news/cocoalisp-tutorial interesting." nil)
(3472730264 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "Adlai: cool, thanks" nil)
(3472730291 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "I get it that it can also be used with SLIME? or that's just when I use Emacs + CCL not the IDE?" nil)
(3472730361 :privmsg "tcr" "Adlai: How did you settle?" nil)
(3472730370 :privmsg "Adlai" "RaceCondition, I'm not sure; you may want to ask in #ccl" nil)
(3472730385 :privmsg "RaceCondition" "oh, OK, I didn't know there were chans for different compilers" nil)
(3472730482 :privmsg "Adlai" "tcr, bookmarked the pages, and I'll discuss them with sykopomp whenever he shows up. I'm still at work right now." nil)
(3472730518 :quit "b4|hraban" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl")
(3472730536 :join "b4|hraban" nil "n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl")
(3472730541 :privmsg "tcr" "Does anyone know what's with citeseer? I've been getting \"Service unavailable\" since days, perhaps even weeks." nil)
(3472730628 :privmsg "Adlai" "funny story: my boss asked me to help him plan out a slideshow, so I took notes in org-mode while we discussed it. When I was done, I emailed him the generated HTML, and he couldn't believe that I had created a webpage with a table of contents, links, and all so quickly." nil)
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(3472731403 :privmsg "Adlai" "blahgh, ERC has been very fussy today" nil)
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(3472732267 :privmsg "dlowe" "software wants to be anthropromorphized" nil)
(3472732282 :privmsg "dlowe" "the word I would use would be \"buggy as hell\"" nil)
(3472732310 :privmsg "prxq" "hi beach, welcom back in yerp!" nil)
(3472732358 :privmsg "prxq" "tcr: no idea, same thing here. OTOH, it has had this kind of problems on and off for as long as I know it." nil)
(3472732380 :privmsg "prxq" "I think there are other servers, but google does not index them somehow." nil)
(3472732403 :privmsg "dlowe" "Adlai: that's a nice story about org-mode, though" nil)
(3472732434 :privmsg "Adlai" "oh, I didn't realize it got through before ERC had its fit. Thanks :D" nil)
(3472732458 :privmsg "Adlai" "are there CL libraries for frobbing org-mode files?" nil)
(3472732487 :part "gilberth" nil "n=gilbert@c220178.adsl.hansenet.de")
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(3472732676 :action "Adlai" "finds http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-org-mode/" nil)
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(3472733719 :privmsg "tcr" "prxq: used to work reliably for me" nil)
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(3472735537 :quit "c|mell" "\"Leaving\"" "n=cmell@202.137.157.253")
(3472735555 :join "c|mell" nil "n=cmell@202.137.157.253")
(3472735925 :privmsg "Modius" "In the standard or in CL-FAD is there anything standardized in lisp that's known as a \"Current Directory\"?  Or would that be something implementation-specific with deployables?" nil)
(3472735965 :privmsg "Adlai" "Modius, I think the closest in the spec is *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS*" nil)
(3472735968 :privmsg "Adlai" "clhs d-p-d" nil)
(3472735973 :privmsg "pkhuong" "Modius: there's *default-pathname-defaults*, but that's not kept in sync with what unix thinks is the cwd." nil)
(3472735987 :privmsg "Adlai" "clhs *d-p-d*" nil)
(3472735993 :quit "stoop" "\"Leaving\"" "n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop")
(3472735997 :privmsg "Modius" "YEah, and I'm in windows-world.  Guessing this is going to go implementation-specific" nil)
(3472736022 :privmsg "pkhuong" "Modius: not more so than in unix." nil)
(3472736065 :join "stassats`" nil "n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats")
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(3472736204 :quit "prxq" "\"Leaving\"" "n=mommer@f051178118.adsl.alicedsl.de")
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(3472736554 :nick "sellout-" "sellout" "n=greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net")
(3472736834 :quit "konr``" "Remote closed the connection" "n=user@189.98.61.161")
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(3472738855 :privmsg "Krystof" "can anyone think of any programming language that has an analogue to sbcl's modular arithmetic" nil)
(3472738916 :join "knobo" nil "n=user@ti0073a340-0817.bb.online.no")
(3472738970 :privmsg "knobo" "Any known trix to compile ele-bdb on ubuntu 10.09?" nil)
(3472739015 :join "amnesiac" nil "n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac")
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(3472739131 :join "puchacz" nil "n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk")
(3472739206 :privmsg "Guthur" "10.09? is that a dev version" nil)
(3472739254 :privmsg "stassats`" "IHM 9.10" nil)
(3472739267 :quit "sellout" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net")
(3472739268 :nick "sellout-" "sellout" "n=greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net")
(3472739342 :privmsg "Guthur" "10.09 is the next major release though" nil)
(3472739347 :privmsg "Guthur" "just reading about it" nil)
(3472739356 :join "addled" nil "n=adl@77.208.59.82")
(3472739366 :privmsg "Guthur" "not due until october this year" nil)
(3472739367 :privmsg "stassats`" "i thought 10.04 is the next release" nil)
(3472739390 :privmsg "knobo" "09.10 is the version. I mixed up the numbers" nil)
(3472739434 :privmsg "Guthur" "canonical has a at least 3 tier release strategy" nil)
(3472739455 :privmsg "stassats`" "and the next next should be 10.10" nil)
(3472739463 :join "mattrepl" nil "n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net")
(3472739489 :privmsg "Guthur" "the minor ones, then biggish ones like karmic and then long term support release like  10.09" nil)
(3472739519 :privmsg "Guthur" "apparently, would need to read another article to confirm this all though" nil)
(3472739519 :quit "potatishandlarn" "Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)" "n=potatish@c-4f66571e-74736162.cust.telenor.se")
(3472739527 :privmsg "stassats`" "where did you get this information?" nil)
(3472739539 :privmsg "Guthur" "the register" nil)
(3472739541 :quit "kejsaren_" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net")
(3472739549 :privmsg "knobo" "Help! 11 nested errors. SB-KERNEL:*MAXIMUM-ERROR-DEPTH* exceeded." nil)
(3472739552 :privmsg "Guthur" "oldish article" nil)
(3472739553 :privmsg "knobo" "argh!" nil)
(3472739559 :privmsg "Guthur" "http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/20/ubuntu_9_04_released/" nil)
(3472739572 :privmsg "egn" "hi, I'm using sb-bsd-sockets and making a TCP connection based off of this example http://jsnell.iki.fi/tmp/echo-server.lisp it works fine, but I'm wanting to push data to the client instead of just connect-the-socket->send-a-string->get-reply , any clues or examples of how to do this?" nil)
(3472739575 :privmsg "Guthur" "can't see the strategy having changed if that is correct though" nil)
(3472739605 :privmsg "stassats`" "the register, oh well" nil)
(3472739613 :privmsg "knobo" "when I run (open-store '(:BDB \"(/tmp/db\")), I get that error" nil)
(3472739620 :join "qbg" nil "n=chatzill@74.33.104.154")
(3472739620 :privmsg "Xach" "egn: send-a-string is pushing data. what did you have in mind that is different?" nil)
(3472739662 :join "potatishandlarn" nil "n=potatish@c-4f661a91-74736162.cust.telenor.se")
(3472739668 :privmsg "Guthur" "I used to read the register all the time when i was working" nil)
(3472739668 :join "marioxcc" nil "n=user@200.77.65.198")
(3472739683 :privmsg "Guthur" "funnily I stopped reading it when I stopped working" nil)
(3472739683 :privmsg "Krystof" "Guthur: only two tiers.  ordinary ones have 18 months's support; \"long time support\" (LTS) releases have longer (3?  4 years?)" nil)
(3472739687 :privmsg "Guthur" "funny how it goes" nil)
(3472739702 :privmsg "Guthur" "krystof i was counting patches as well" nil)
(3472739722 :quit "Dra`vi" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com")
(3472739750 :privmsg "Guthur" "probably don't really count though" nil)
(3472739770 :quit "leo2007" "\"rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.91.2\"" "n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3472739873 :privmsg "egn" "Xach: sorry, I'm currently sending a string from the client->server, so I'm pushing data there. but after the connection is made, I want to be able to push a string from the server->client" nil)
(3472739902 :join "gruseom" nil "n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net")
(3472739915 :join "LiamH" nil "n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net")
(3472739958 :privmsg "Xach" "egn: It's about as simple as that. Write the data to the socket on the server side." nil)
(3472740009 :privmsg "Guthur" "just got vol 1 of knuths are of programming, some bedtime reading hehe" nil)
(3472740056 :quit "brandelune" nil "n=suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp")
(3472740076 :privmsg "egn" "Xach: ok, I guess where I got confused was that for the server side, I had to use sb-impl::add-fd-handler and sb-impl::serve-all-events to catch the string the client is pushing, so would I have to set up the same thing for the client?" nil)
(3472740138 :privmsg "Xach" "egn: You don't have to do anything like that if you don't want to." nil)
(3472740139 :join "Sergio`" nil "n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt")
(3472740160 :privmsg "Xach" "egn: But I'm afraid I don't know anything about serve-event, so I can't help if that's how you want to do it." nil)
(3472740227 :privmsg "egn" "Xach: ok, cool. I would rather not use it, but I didn't know what to use instead. The only thing I could think of is just waiting for read-line client-side" nil)
(3472740253 :join "ehu" nil "i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-fiynyzqclamcxzha")
(3472740341 :quit "hoeq" "Client Quit" "n=hoeq@c-35c8e455.016-475-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se")
(3472740354 :privmsg "pkhuong" "egn: I'd use threads." nil)
(3472740355 :quit "TJohn" "Client Quit" "i=as@114-45-234-250.dynamic.hinet.net")
(3472740365 :quit "freiksenet" "\"Leaving.\"" "n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi")
(3472740457 :privmsg "Krystof" "pkhuong: you're the kind of person who would know: is there anything even analogous to sbcl's modular arithmetic as a programming language construct that I can use as an analogy or reference?" nil)
(3472740482 :privmsg "pkhuong" "I'm asking around. Not sure." nil)
(3472740509 :privmsg "pkhuong" "Ada, sort of." nil)
(3472740557 :join "Dawgmatix_" nil "n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net")
(3472740563 :privmsg "soupdragon" "someone wrote a macro in scheme that does modular arithmetic and other folks did type directed modulo arithmetic in haskell but maybe thats not really what you meant" nil)
(3472740609 :privmsg "pkhuong" "soupdragon: the haskell hack is probably comparable. Do you still have a link?" nil)
(3472740618 :privmsg "soupdragon" "also you get this sort of thing in prolog with constraint programming over finite domains but you'd have to replace all the normal ops with mod tacked on too" nil)
(3472740632 :join "dto1" nil "n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net")
(3472740650 :privmsg "Krystof" "I know of one thing that's kind of the opposite: \"Widening Integer Arithmetic\" by Redwine and Ramsey" nil)
(3472740658 :join "freiksenet" nil "n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi")
(3472740674 :privmsg "Krystof" "implementing 32-bit + for the jvm as a 64-bit + a mask" nil)
(3472740674 :privmsg "pkhuong" "soupdragon: that's what SBCL's hack avoids. You write normal arithmetic, and if you wrap the result in a mod/logand, the modularity propagates into the operands." nil)
(3472740695 :privmsg "Krystof" "sorry, not the jvm, in a java compiler" nil)
(3472741091 :join "hoeq" nil "n=hoeq@c-35c8e455.016-475-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se")
(3472741108 :privmsg "knobo" "I get: Compilation finished: 7 warnings  50 style-warnings  710 notes  [10.77 secs], when I compile elephant. Should I consider that OK?" nil)
(3472741190 :privmsg "stassats`" "with high speed number, notes are ok" nil)
(3472741218 :privmsg "soupdragon" "sorry I can't find it anywhere" nil)
(3472741219 :quit "xan-afk" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi")
(3472741400 :privmsg "rahul" "knobo: the warnings may be a bad thing..." nil)
(3472741412 :privmsg "rahul" "knobo: since there are only 7, might as well check into them" nil)
(3472741427 :privmsg "knobo" "Probably is, since the thing does not work :(" nil)
(3472741442 :privmsg "rahul" "maybe the warnings will inidcate why it's not working" nil)
(3472741489 :privmsg "Xach" "rahul: Do you use logical pathnames?" nil)
(3472741498 :privmsg "rahul" "Xach: I rarely use files :)" nil)
(3472741513 :privmsg "rahul" "files are so... 1960" nil)
(3472741531 :privmsg "rahul" "Xach: but no, I haven't used LPNs seriously yet" nil)
(3472741544 :privmsg "rahul" "they scare me very much" nil)
(3472741584 :privmsg "rahul" "the really annoying part is that different implementations don't translate them to physical pathnames the same way" nil)
(3472741602 :quit "Kolyan" nil "n=nartamon@95-25-18-12.broadband.corbina.ru")
(3472741647 :privmsg "rahul" "but as long as you only ever create the files via LPNs and only use one implementation for all the access, you'll be ok" nil)
(3472741672 :privmsg "rahul" "(this is one major reason why asdf never used LPNs)" nil)
(3472741729 :action "Xach" "is going to use them seriously starting today" nil)
(3472741760 :privmsg "rahul" "good luck" nil)
(3472741768 :privmsg "knobo" "(:MESSAGE \"COMPILE-FILE warned while performing #<COMPILE-OP NIL {B15FF29}> on" nil)
(3472741768 :privmsg "knobo" "#<CL-SOURCE-FILE \\\"collections\\\" {B8095F9}>.\"" nil)
(3472741768 :privmsg "knobo" "  :SEVERITY :WARNING :LOCATION (:ERROR \"No error location available\")" nil)
(3472741768 :privmsg "knobo" "  :REFERENCES NIL)" nil)
(3472741801 :privmsg "rahul" "knobo: that's a second-order warning. ignore it." nil)
(3472741819 :privmsg "stassats`" "knobo: you're loading it through slime?" nil)
(3472741853 :privmsg "knobo" "yes" nil)
(3472741871 :privmsg "stassats`" "there should *SLIME Compilation* buffer with warnings" nil)
(3472741885 :privmsg "stassats`" "should be" nil)
(3472741900 :privmsg "knobo" "stassats`: there is something wrong with it." nil)
(3472741988 :quit "hoeq" "Client Quit" "n=hoeq@c-35c8e455.016-475-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se")
(3472741989 :privmsg "knobo" "Berkeley DB error #T: Unknown error 1048615 (when I do: (open-store '(:BDB \"/home/knobo/temp/contentdb/db\")))" nil)
(3472742001 :join "hoeq" nil "n=hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se")
(3472742001 :quit "hoeq" "Client Quit" "n=hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se")
(3472742023 :join "hoeq" nil "n=hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se")
(3472742060 :privmsg "pkhuong" "knobo: are you sure your versions of bdb and elephant are compatible?" nil)
(3472742093 :privmsg "knobo" "I have 4.6" nil)
(3472742310 :quit "amnesiac" "\"Leaving\"" "n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac")
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(3472742424 :join "rme" nil "n=rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net")
(3472742520 :privmsg "knobo" "; caught WARNING:;   undefined variable: ELEPHANT::WRAPPER" nil)
(3472742521 :privmsg "knobo" " " nil)
(3472742535 :privmsg "knobo" "; caught WARNING:;   undefined variable: ELEPHANT::MAP-FN" nil)
(3472742552 :quit "gonzojive" "Client Quit" "n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU")
(3472742637 :privmsg "knobo" "how about these once: ; caught STYLE-WARNING:;   The function was called with eleven arguments, but wants exactly fourteen." nil)
(3472742653 :quit "Xantoz" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=user@c-e9b6e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se")
(3472742697 :privmsg "knobo" "CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 13332(tid 3048913776): Memory fault at 100020 (pc=0x9c14963, sp=0xb5b974c0) The integrity of this image is possibly compromised. Continuing with fingers crossed." nil)
(3472742723 :privmsg "stassats`" "ffi problem?" nil)
(3472742733 :privmsg "knobo" "probably" nil)
(3472742735 :privmsg "pkhuong" "Is that a release or something from VC?" nil)
(3472742736 :privmsg "stassats`" "14 arguments? that's something" nil)
(3472742751 :privmsg "knobo" "from clbuild" nil)
(3472742819 :privmsg "knobo" "maybe update sbcl unless 1.0.31.32 is good enough" nil)
(3472742829 :join "Xantoz" nil "n=hejhej@c-dab0e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se")
(3472742832 :privmsg "Xach" "Hmm, all my backtraces have gotten useless on darwin. a bunch of foreign functions and system internals only." nil)
(3472742837 :privmsg "stassats`" "online documentation says it supports only bdb 4.5" nil)
(3472742860 :privmsg "pkhuong" "Xach: yup." nil)
(3472742867 :privmsg "knobo" "hmmm.. ;; Berkeley 4.5 or 4.6 are valid as set by berkeley-db-version, each" nil)
(3472742873 :privmsg "knobo" "says config.sexp" nil)
(3472742889 :privmsg "knobo" "ubuntu does not have 4.5 :(" nil)
(3472742917 :privmsg "Fade" "you could probably build the source package from an older pool." nil)
(3472742919 :privmsg "stassats`" "i remember building it myself for elephant" nil)
(3472742926 :privmsg "Xach" "pkhuong: Is it the normal state of affairs or is there something I can easiliy do to improve it?" nil)
(3472742960 :privmsg "pkhuong" "I think that's expected. I don't have any idea how to fix this. nikodemus or slyrus might." nil)
(3472742976 :privmsg "knobo" "sometimes i'd like to drive a garden fork through my foot, to stop the mental pain of compiling different things" nil)
(3472743320 :join "bitflip`" nil "n=user@ip98-184-186-177.tu.ok.cox.net")
(3472743372 :privmsg "knobo" "nope. 4.5 did not work either" nil)
(3472743389 :privmsg "stassats`" "did you recompile?" nil)
(3472743418 :privmsg "knobo" "yes, but maybe 4.5 was not probably not properly installed. I'll have to check" nil)
(3472743420 :quit "reprore" "Remote closed the connection" "n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp")
(3472743424 :privmsg "stassats`" "and you should have better luck on the elephant mailing list" nil)
(3472743482 :quit "soupdragon" "\"Leaving\"" "n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax")
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(3472743977 :privmsg "knobo" "Maybe I'll escape.. hahah!" nil)
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(3472744004 :privmsg "knobo" "I'm lerning haskell these days." nil)
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(3472744210 :quit "cmeow" "Excess Flood" "i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org")
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(3472744263 :join "cmeow" nil "i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org")
(3472744263 :privmsg "rahul" "macros and dynamic types completely change the way that you can approach monads" nil)
(3472744268 :quit "cmeow" "Excess Flood" "i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org")
(3472744282 :privmsg "sykopomp" "rahul: how so?" nil)
(3472744293 :join "cmeow" nil "i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org")
(3472744302 :privmsg "rahul" "it's a tradeoff, sometimes you need to be more explicit because of less type inference" nil)
(3472744323 :privmsg "Fade" "knobo: if you used a source package, make sure you installed the -dev packages, too." nil)
(3472744329 :privmsg "pkhuong" "tcr: the good news is that the sb-synchronised still makes sense 6 months later." nil)
(3472744339 :quit "billstclair" "Remote closed the connection" "n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair")
(3472744346 :privmsg "rahul" "however, you can make your transformations more generic and you can write macros that generate both the simple function and the um what's it called... M version of the operator at once" nil)
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(3473194047 :rpl_topicwhotime "kubrick.freenode.net" "fe[nl]ix" 3473065917)
(3473194047 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "ccl-logbot leo2007 Jasko abugosh quidnunc Odditus happycube mattrepl ruediger_ marioxcc _3b` Phoodus Edward Raptelan ace4016 AntiSpamMeta pr_ _8david` timor tomaw Dominian clog niko Adamant fe[nl]ix DeusExPikachu ikki REPLeffect digms SandGorgon saikatc ASau sepult parolang Dawgmatix bgs100 stoop Guthur ivan_chernetsky Yuuhi Ginei_Morioka Beetny mrSpec yates mrsolo fmu kleppari kejsaren2 wlr kpreid Odin- carlocci zophy-ng slyrus blitz_` gruseom " nil)
(3473194047 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "redline6561 Soulman amnesiac dialtone nha abeaumont Sumpen cools hefner Harag Madsy Sergio` grouzen rrice Lithos mathrick dys reprore Spaghettini Xof moesenle ignas legumbre Stattrav wasabi billstclair easyE cmm- coyo rdd daniel benny blast_hardcheese mishoo tarbo NNshag Fufie fihi09 lnostdal adeht GrayGnome potatishandlarn mle TR2N lpolzer_ beach partisan ianmcorvidae Draggor JonSmith Adlai pragma_ tltstc raison c|mell Xach borism dejones " nil)
(3473194047 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "specbot minion lisppaste erk DrForr_ yahooooo emma skeptomai|away ivan4th drewc Vonunov nyef eno peterwang johs tic alexsuraci scode krappie lharc rotty qeb`away phadthai ineiros j0ni p_l schme zbigniew jsnell pkhuong arbscht _deepfire weirdo danderson rullie rapacity Zhivago peddie Axioplase_ guaq dmiles_afk Guest53408 koning_robot Soulmann lukjad007 jamesstanley xenosoz2 Holcxjo addled prip alexbobp mornfall aking guaqua PuffTheMagic_ bobrown` " nil)
(3473194047 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "Khisanth kloeri kuwabara2 Terminus Patzy slather_ chii wgl hdurer fnordus reb ironChicken dfox_ tychoish PissedNumlock mgr lemoinem disturbance svaksha BrianRice ecraven tvaalen cupe Tabmow nuba xinming pjb p8m Aisling borisc madnificent KatrinaTheLamia jyujin_ sykopomp spiaggia xan Taggnostr foom Ri-|away dostoyev1ky yacin boyscared nicktastic rahul Carnegie Helheim dcrawford bfein srcerer rootzlevel dalkvist anekos kencausey cods djm egn " nil)
(3473194047 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "Fade stepnem antifuchs felipe cpt_nemo Tordek housel blackened` Legooolas Pepe_ dto spacebat cmeow_ kingdon_ Orest^bnc rbancroft Wraithan rsynnott cmatei pok rlonstei1 Yamazaki-kun setheus erg djinni` foom2 bdowning hohum fractalis luis dym Tristam herbieB l_a_m Adrinael ramus hoeq z0d koollman whoppix frodef mtd Buganini vsync cataska retupmoca codemonkeyx bakkdoor guenthr clop kom_ fgtech nowherman sjbach joast CrazyEddy slyrus_ ve thijso " nil)
(3473194047 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "nullman` trittweiler mikezor joga defn _3b ski dsop antoszka Dodek sytse ``Erik spoofy jrockway nasloc__ Intensity " nil)
(3473194135 :privmsg "guaqua" "we are 2 hours into saturday, be patient :)" nil)
(3473194147 :privmsg "Odditus" "still 4pm Friday where I am :p" nil)
(3473194191 :privmsg "Xach" "I'm flexible. Any good hack in a 42-hour window works for me." nil)
(3473194203 :privmsg "adeht" "http://paste.lisp.org/display/93712 hack of yesterday" nil)
(3473194292 :quit "mishoo" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=mishoo@79.112.112.195")
(3473194561 :quit "abugosh" "\"Leaving.\"" "n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com")
(3473194632 :quit "ace4016" "\"brb\"" "i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com")
(3473194691 :quit "timor" "\"Leaving.\"" "n=timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de")
(3473194719 :quit "Sumpen" "Client Quit" "n=Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com")
(3473194815 :privmsg "adeht" "another recent hack http://paste.lisp.org/display/93588 <- it's a lolhack, I saw, I loled, I hacked (vidi, loli, hacki)" nil)
(3473194856 :privmsg "adeht" "erm, that's the ugly version.  lemme annotate" nil)
(3473194879 :privmsg "adeht" "oh, already annotated :)" nil)
(3473195049 :quit "Madsy" "\"leaving\"" "n=madsy@fu/coder/madsy")
(3473195163 :quit "ramus" "Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=ramus@adsl-99-23-150-32.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net")
(3473195246 :join "HET2" nil "n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3473195273 :privmsg "nyef" "Only thing I've hacked today is documentation." nil)
(3473195315 :join "ramus" nil "n=ramus@99.23.136.43")
(3473195441 :join "ace4016" nil "i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com")
(3473195450 :part "JonSmith" nil "n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net")
(3473454384 :join "ccl-logbot" nil "n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com")
(3473454384 :rpl_topicwhotime "card.freenode.net" "fe[nl]ix" 3473065917)
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(3473454384 :names "card.freenode.net" "TR2N bobbysmith007 Modius Fufie grouzen drewc kloeri blandest ikki sykopomp DeusExPikachu blitz_` marcoecc cupe claudia20100125 ryepup1 froydnj wlr reb` djinni` hefner prip G0SUB Sergio` boyscared knobo` Soulman__ Demosthenes delYsid daniel_ addled Madsy saikatc qebab l_a_m NNshag frodef varjagg timchen119 qed ASau ud_ fractalis lpolzer__ cmeow dys araujo lnostdal sellout p8m aidalgol knobo porcelina rahul p_l wgl slather eno Spaghettini ecraven " nil)
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(3473454384 :names "card.freenode.net" "ineiros schme zbigniew jsnell pkhuong _deepfire weirdo danderson rullie rapacity Zhivago peddie Axioplase_ guaq dmiles_afk lukjad007 alexbobp bobrown` Terminus Patzy chii Tabmow nuba Aisling borisc madnificent KatrinaTheLamia jyujin_ Taggnostr foom dostoyev1ky nicktastic Carnegie Helheim dcrawford bfein srcerer rootzlevel kencausey cods djm egn antifuchs felipe cpt_nemo housel foom2 hohum herbieB hoeq z0d koollman whoppix mtd Buganini vsync " nil)
(3473454384 :names "card.freenode.net" "retupmoca codemonkeyx bakkdoor guenthr clop fgtech Intensity jrockway spoofy ``Erik sytse CrazyEddy joast sjbach " nil)
(3473454471 :nick "legumbre_" "legumbre" "n=leo@r190-135-71-121.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy")
(3473454528 :privmsg "drewc" "heh, it works! IT'S ALIVE!" nil)
(3473454530 :action "drewc" "is happy" nil)
(3473454553 :privmsg "hefner" "your humanity-enslaving super robot?" nil)
(3473454591 :privmsg "drewc" "my UNTANGLE feature for my org based literate programming system" nil)
(3473454593 :join "abugosh" nil "n=Adium@206.225.102.84")
(3473454616 :join "dalkvist" nil "n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to")
(3473454616 :join "antoszka" nil "n=antoszka@lemongrass.antoszka.pl")
(3473454624 :privmsg "drewc" "so you can modify the .lisp files directly if you like, and untangle them back to the source text in the org file" nil)
(3473454670 :privmsg "drewc" "based around the DESCTRUCTURING-DIFF utility i lisppasted yesterday" nil)
(3473454735 :join "ski" nil "n=slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se")
(3473454745 :join "thijso" nil "n=thijs@83.98.233.115")
(3473454794 :privmsg "drewc" "which is here, only imagine the subseq's are not there anymore :" nil)
(3473454796 :privmsg "drewc" "http://paste.lisp.org/display/93823" nil)
(3473454807 :action "drewc" "is obviously quite pleased with himself" nil)
(3473645537 :join "ccl-logbot" nil "n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com")
(3473645537 :rpl_topicwhotime "simmons.freenode.net" "Xof" 3473602108)
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(3473645537 :names "simmons.freenode.net" "wlr Modius c|mell Krystof TR2N dstatyvka boyscared xan kwinz3 legumbre drewc Xof parolang spec[away] rootzlevel hicx174 jsfb Borbus whoppix ski srcerer Taggnostr dcrawford hohum foom bfein fgtech nicktastic tarbo djm nuba ennen foom2 borisc dostoyev1ky FullMetalHarlot jyujin Axioplase_ tomaw Legooolas Khisanth dejones johs fihi09 anekos lichtblau abeaumont fractalis cataska Helheim l_a_m dfox daniel kiuma TJohn Spaghettini ud_ cods madnificent " nil)
(3473645537 :names "simmons.freenode.net" "Aisling_ CrazyEddy blast_hardcheese Patzy spacebat yacin tensorpudding fda314925 dmiles lemoinem Ginei_Morioka slather Holcxjo fnordus cmm wasabi ianmcorvidae mgr_ dmm_ gigamonkey cpt_nemo madsy Xantoz hdurer eldragon arbscht herbieB austinh nyef ASau` jroes lnostdal Ri- thijso dalkvist tltstc slyrus_ alec trittweiler bdowning DrForr _3b__ gz ve PuffTheMagic dsop joga j0ni_ [df]_ Ralith pr nitor ramus bipt` Dodek Orest^bnc rbancroft rsynnott " nil)
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(3473645537 :names "simmons.freenode.net" "rullie rapacity Zhivago peddie guaq lukjad007 alexbobp bobrown` chii Tabmow felipe hoeq z0d koollman vsync retupmoca codemonkeyx bakkdoor guenthr clop jrockway ``Erik sytse sjbach " nil)
(3473645537 :quit "clog" "Excess Flood" "n=nef@bespin.org")
(3473645537 :quit "housel" "Excess Flood" "n=nnnuser@mccarthy.opendylan.org")
(3473645538 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473645539 :quit "QinGW" "Excess Flood" "n=wangqing@203.86.89.226")
(3473645539 :quit "fmu" "Excess Flood" "i=root@unaffiliated/fmu")
(3473645542 :join "fmu" nil "i=root@unaffiliated/fmu")
(3473645543 :join "holycow" nil "n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com")
(3473645884 :join "ccl-logbot" nil "n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com")
(3473645884 :rpl_topicwhotime "kubrick.freenode.net" "Xof" 3473602108)
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(3473645884 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "billstclair Buganini Yamazaki-kun svaksha mtd myrkraverk ceineke_ fatblueduck Adlai cmatei NNshag mathrick Jasko2 xristos Pepe_ antoszka fe[nl]ix wlr Modius c|mell Krystof TR2N dstatyvka boyscared xan kwinz3 legumbre drewc Xof parolang spec[away] rootzlevel hicx174 jsfb Borbus whoppix ski srcerer Taggnostr hohum dcrawford foom bfein fgtech nicktastic tarbo djm nuba borisc ennen foom2 dostoyev1ky FullMetalHarlot jyujin Axioplase_ tomaw Legooolas " nil)
(3473645884 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "Khisanth dejones johs fihi09 anekos lichtblau abeaumont fractalis cataska Helheim l_a_m dfox daniel kiuma TJohn Spaghettini ud_ cods madnificent Aisling_ CrazyEddy blast_hardcheese Patzy spacebat yacin tensorpudding fda314925 dmiles lemoinem Ginei_Morioka slather Holcxjo fnordus cmm wasabi ianmcorvidae mgr_ dmm_ gigamonkey cpt_nemo madsy Xantoz hdurer eldragon arbscht herbieB nyef ASau` jroes lnostdal Ri- thijso dalkvist tltstc slyrus_ alec " nil)
(3473645884 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "trittweiler bdowning DrForr _3b__ gz ve PuffTheMagic dsop joga j0ni_ [df]_ Ralith pr nitor ramus bipt` Dodek Orest^bnc rbancroft rsynnott rlonstein setheus luis dym Adrinael kom_ aking pok_ guaqua mornfall yahooooo coyo Tristam kloeri sykopomp cupe claudia20100125 reb` djinni` prip Soulman__ delYsid addled frodef varjagg nasloc__ qed ASau p_l eno mikezor_ chillywi1ly beach tvaalen disturbance tychoish PissedNumlock Tordek Xach Fade Raptelan " nil)
(3473645884 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "AntiSpamMeta easyE pragma_ erk tic scode krappie lharc rotty phadthai ineiros schme zbigniew pkhuong _deepfire weirdo danderson rullie rapacity Zhivago peddie guaq lukjad007 alexbobp bobrown` chii Tabmow felipe hoeq z0d koollman vsync retupmoca codemonkeyx bakkdoor guenthr clop sjbach sytse ``Erik jrockway " nil)
(3473645892 :join "stepnem" nil "n=stepnem@88.103.132.186")
(3473645906 :quit "huangjs" "Remote closed the connection" "n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp")
(3473645967 :privmsg "drewc" "yup" nil)
(3473645989 :join "ironChicken" nil "n=nnnricha@mx.lurk.org")
(3473646025 :join "dplbsyzo" nil "n=emqqvngw@24-247-80-199.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com")
(3473646025 :quit "dplbsyzo" "Broken pipe" "n=emqqvngw@24-247-80-199.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com")
(3473646038 :quit "kcxvm" "SendQ exceeded" "n=clwnlb@cpc1-wiga6-0-0-cust220.pres.cable.virginmedia.com")
(3473646059 :privmsg "drewc" "oic" nil)
(3473646091 :quit "billstclair" "Excess Flood" "n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair")
(3473646114 :join "RaceCondition" nil "n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee")
(3473646277 :quit "Modius" "\"I'm big in Japan\"" "n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com")
(3473646289 :join "Kludgy" nil "n=therealk@S01060018f85956c8.vc.shawcable.net")
(3473646378 :mode "ChanServ" "+o drewc" "ChanServ@services.")
(3473646398 :privmsg "drewc" "heh, chanserv is gone" nil)
(3473646424 :part "spradnyesh" nil "n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zijqkvpftranlwew")
(3473646482 :mode "ChanServ" "+o drewc" "ChanServ@services.")
(3473646486 :join "cxynv" nil "n=tkzvedgd@adsl-99-170-142-252.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net")
(3473646489 :join "zflyemm" nil "n=tzlzmu@adsl-99-170-142-252.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net")
(3473646503 :join "spradnyesh" nil "n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-odwhaxupingwszcy")
(3473646511 :quit "stepnem" "Excess Flood" "n=stepnem@88.103.132.186")
(3473646513 :join "zinm" nil "n=batxb@adsl-99-170-142-252.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net")
(3473646628 :join "ccl-logbot" nil "n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com")
(3473646628 :rpl_topicwhotime "kubrick.freenode.net" "Xof" 3473602108)
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(3473646628 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "Adlai cmatei NNshag mathrick Jasko2 xristos Pepe_ antoszka fe[nl]ix wlr c|mell Krystof TR2N dstatyvka boyscared xan kwinz3 legumbre @drewc Xof parolang spec[away] rootzlevel hicx174 jsfb Borbus whoppix ski srcerer Taggnostr hohum dcrawford foom bfein fgtech nicktastic tarbo djm nuba borisc ennen foom2 dostoyev1ky FullMetalHarlot jyujin Axioplase_ tomaw Legooolas Khisanth dejones johs fihi09 anekos lichtblau abeaumont fractalis cataska Helheim " nil)
(3473646628 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "l_a_m dfox daniel kiuma TJohn Spaghettini ud_ cods madnificent Aisling_ CrazyEddy blast_hardcheese Patzy spacebat yacin tensorpudding fda314925 dmiles lemoinem Ginei_Morioka slather Holcxjo fnordus cmm wasabi ianmcorvidae mgr_ dmm_ gigamonkey cpt_nemo madsy Xantoz hdurer eldragon arbscht herbieB nyef ASau` jroes lnostdal Ri- thijso dalkvist tltstc slyrus_ alec trittweiler bdowning DrForr _3b__ gz ve PuffTheMagic dsop joga j0ni_ [df]_ Ralith " nil)
(3473646628 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "pr nitor ramus bipt` Dodek Orest^bnc rbancroft rsynnott rlonstein setheus luis dym Adrinael kom_ aking pok_ guaqua mornfall yahooooo coyo Tristam kloeri sykopomp cupe claudia20100125 reb` djinni` prip Soulman__ delYsid addled frodef varjagg nasloc__ qed ASau p_l eno mikezor_ chillywi1ly tvaalen disturbance tychoish PissedNumlock Tordek Xach Fade Raptelan AntiSpamMeta easyE pragma_ erk tic scode krappie lharc rotty phadthai ineiros schme zbigniew " nil)
(3473646628 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "pkhuong _deepfire weirdo danderson rullie rapacity Zhivago peddie guaq lukjad007 alexbobp bobrown` chii Tabmow felipe hoeq z0d koollman vsync retupmoca codemonkeyx bakkdoor guenthr clop sjbach sytse ``Erik jrockway " nil)
(3473646628 :join "xenosoz2" nil "n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr")
(3473646630 :join "skeptomai|away" nil "n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net")
(3473646631 :join "raison" nil "n=raison@70.90.182.149")
(3473646631 :quit "alexsuraci" "Remote closed the connection" "n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473646632 :quit "holycow" "Excess Flood" "n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com")
(3473646632 :join "kencausey" nil "n=ken@67.15.6.88")
(3473646634 :join "spradnyesh" nil "n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-lnqvvhtkdovlxvwo")
(3473646634 :join "Draggor" nil "n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com")
(3473646638 :quit "stepnem" "Excess Flood" "n=stepnem@88.103.132.186")
(3473646639 :join "oegbmsvdclpb" nil "n=bbvrwx@cpe-67-250-50-95.nyc.res.rr.com")
(3473646639 :quit "oegbmsvdclpb" "Connection reset by peer" "n=bbvrwx@cpe-67-250-50-95.nyc.res.rr.com")
(3473646642 :join "gmdjm1959" nil "n=gmdjm195@ip98-180-23-122.ga.at.cox.net")
(3473646642 :join "antifuchs" nil "n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net")
(3473646646 :join "cmeow" nil "i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org")
(3473646648 :quit "xenosoz2" "Excess Flood" "n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr")
(3473646652 :quit "nowhereman" "Excess Flood" "n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net")
(3473646654 :join "holycow" nil "n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com")
(3473646655 :privmsg "beach" "Good morning!" nil)
(3473646659 :join "stepnem" nil "n=stepnem@88.103.132.186")
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(3473646982 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "svaksha mtd myrkraverk ceineke_ fatblueduck Adlai cmatei NNshag mathrick Jasko2 xristos Pepe_ antoszka fe[nl]ix wlr c|mell Krystof TR2N dstatyvka boyscared xan kwinz3 legumbre @drewc Xof parolang spec[away] rootzlevel hicx174 jsfb Borbus whoppix ski srcerer Taggnostr hohum dcrawford foom bfein fgtech nicktastic tarbo djm nuba borisc ennen foom2 dostoyev1ky FullMetalHarlot jyujin Axioplase_ tomaw Legooolas Khisanth dejones johs fihi09 anekos " nil)
(3473646982 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "lichtblau abeaumont fractalis cataska Helheim l_a_m dfox daniel kiuma TJohn Spaghettini ud_ cods madnificent Aisling_ CrazyEddy blast_hardcheese Patzy spacebat yacin tensorpudding fda314925 dmiles lemoinem Ginei_Morioka slather Holcxjo fnordus cmm wasabi ianmcorvidae mgr_ dmm_ gigamonkey cpt_nemo madsy Xantoz hdurer eldragon arbscht herbieB nyef ASau` jroes lnostdal Ri- thijso dalkvist tltstc slyrus_ alec trittweiler bdowning DrForr _3b__ " nil)
(3473646982 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "gz ve PuffTheMagic dsop joga j0ni_ [df]_ Ralith pr nitor ramus bipt` Dodek Orest^bnc rbancroft rsynnott rlonstein setheus luis dym Adrinael kom_ aking pok_ guaqua mornfall yahooooo coyo Tristam kloeri sykopomp cupe claudia20100125 reb` djinni` prip Soulman__ delYsid addled frodef varjagg nasloc__ qed ASau p_l eno mikezor_ chillywi1ly tvaalen disturbance tychoish PissedNumlock Tordek Xach Fade Raptelan AntiSpamMeta easyE pragma_ erk tic scode " nil)
(3473646982 :names "kubrick.freenode.net" "krappie lharc rotty phadthai ineiros schme zbigniew pkhuong _deepfire weirdo danderson rullie rapacity Zhivago peddie guaq lukjad007 alexbobp bobrown` chii Tabmow felipe hoeq z0d koollman vsync retupmoca codemonkeyx bakkdoor guenthr clop sjbach sytse ``Erik jrockway " nil)
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(3473647008 :privmsg "Dominian" "drewc: You might try +R" nil)
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(3473813321 :names "jordan.freenode.net" "ccl-logbot ivan_chernetsky antifuchs skeptomai|away Draggor kencausey redline6561 raison alexsuraci stepnem joast cmeow clog housel bpalmer urantherz Darxus Dorian SandGorgon gtab2 urnthr araujo Adlai oconnore_ Beetny dmiles_afk G0SUB tltstc sjbach ramus madsy hohum_ bipt` spoofy sledge borisc fmu cupe jyujin_ egoz fe[nl]ix stassats` Demosthenes billstclair fatblueduck cmm davazp lithper2_ pkhuong Phoodus DeusExPikachu_ snorble__ drwho moocow " nil)
(3473813321 :names "jordan.freenode.net" "Krystof Ralith Kenjin abeaumont Jasko antoszka sepult marioxcc mathrick Fufie konr legumbre pizzledizzle ace4016 proq Modius sykopomp NNshag jsfb cools @drewc myrkraverk koning_robot wlr fihi09 bulibuta ianmcorvidae madnificent spiaggia adeht hypno daniel ASau` Spaghettini Soulmann rullie stoop pjb yahooooo Tordek Buganini nitor prip joga egn felipe holycow Yamazaki1kun Sergio` tychoish phadthai beach tobetchi ClaudiaS Quadrescence qebab jsnell " nil)
(3473813321 :names "jordan.freenode.net" "Helheim nalioth werdan7 rahul mtd cmatei xristos Pepe_ boyscared Xof rootzlevel hicx174 Borbus whoppix ski srcerer Taggnostr dcrawford foom bfein fgtech nicktastic tarbo djm ennen nuba foom2 dostoyev1ky Axioplase_ tomaw Khisanth dejones johs anekos lichtblau l_a_m dfox ud_ cods Aisling_ CrazyEddy blast_hardcheese Patzy spacebat yacin tensorpudding lemoinem Ginei_Morioka slather Holcxjo fnordus wasabi mgr_ dmm_ cpt_nemo Xantoz eldragon arbscht " nil)
(3473813321 :names "jordan.freenode.net" "herbieB jroes lnostdal Ri- thijso dalkvist slyrus_ alec trittweiler bdowning DrForr _3b__ gz ve PuffTheMagic [df] dsop pr Dodek Orest^bnc rbancroft rsynnott rlonstein setheus luis kom_ aking pok_ guaqua mornfall Tristam kloeri reb` djinni` addled frodef qed ASau p_l eno hoeq z0d koollman retupmoca codemonkeyx bakkdoor guenthr clop sytse ``Erik jrockway Tabmow chii bobrown` alexbobp lukjad007 guaq peddie @Zhivago rapacity danderson weirdo _deepfire " nil)
(3473813321 :names "jordan.freenode.net" "zbigniew schme ineiros rotty lharc krappie scode tic erk pragma_ easyE AntiSpamMeta Raptelan Fade @Xach PissedNumlock disturbance tvaalen chillywi1ly mikezor_ " nil)
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(3473813432 :privmsg "Dorian" "I need to make a reverse function in lisp without a helper function. Limited to these functions (if,endp, car, cdr, rev,cons, nil)" nil)
(3473813446 :privmsg "Dorian" "and ofcourse my paste didnt work so gimme a sec" nil)
(3473813459 :privmsg "Darxus" "Adlai: Hah, thanks.  Yeah, Arc does seem rather incomplete.  But.. do you think it's going in a good direction, and will get there?" nil)
(3473813494 :quit "davazp" "Excess Flood" "n=user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net")
(3473813512 :privmsg "Darxus" "Forth is the Unibomber??" nil)
(3473813531 :privmsg "Adlai" "un_a_" nil)
(3473813608 :privmsg "Dorian" "is paste form down?" nil)
(3473813626 :privmsg "Adlai" "lisppaste isn't in the channel. just paste the URL of your paste." nil)
(3473813743 :privmsg "Dorian" "well it goes to submit but never gives me the url" nil)
(3473813766 :join "ironChicken" nil "n=nnnnnric@mx.lurk.org")
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(3473813846 :join "lukego" nil "n=lukegorr@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my")
(3473813862 :privmsg "lukego" "hey is there a nice way in lisp (or sbcl) to import all _unexported_ symbols from a package?" nil)
(3473813879 :privmsg "lukego" "or (b) to export all symbols in a nice way" nil)
(3473813880 :join "JonSmith" nil "n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net")
(3473813889 :privmsg "Dorian" "http://paste.lisp.org/display/94132" nil)
(3473813916 :privmsg "Dorian" "oops: http://paste.lisp.org/display/94129" nil)
(3473813955 :privmsg "Dorian" "the code works for empty, and > 2 element lists not 1 element list" nil)
(3473813960 :privmsg "Darxus" "Any reason I shouldn't begin by reading On Lisp by Graham?" nil)
(3473814069 :quit "urnthr" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=James@c-98-222-201-170.hsd1.in.comcast.net")
(3473814072 :privmsg "fatblueduck" "Darxus: I have both On Lisp and Practical Common Lisp and I'm about 1/2 through PCL and 1/4 through On Lisp..." nil)
(3473814095 :privmsg "fatblueduck" "Darxus: I find both useful but like Practical Common Lisp best" nil)
(3473814106 :privmsg "Darxus" "Thanks." nil)
(3473814125 :privmsg "Darxus" "On Lisp is available free from Graham's website..." nil)
(3473814125 :join "davazp" nil "n=user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net")
(3473814165 :quit "egoz" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=Egoz@118.96.226.201")
(3473814173 :privmsg "Darxus" "It kind of occurred to me today I lack the problems that keep other people from using lisp - I work by myself on much of what I do." nil)
(3473814184 :privmsg "JonSmith" "lots of things are available free :-)" nil)
(3473814194 :privmsg "Darxus" "Yes." nil)
(3473814197 :privmsg "fatblueduck" "I'm probably on the 'slow' learning side and I find that On Lisp is better because of the 'assignments' it gives at the end of chapters" nil)
(3473814206 :privmsg "Darxus" "And having perl regex capability in common lisp is... good." nil)
(3473814218 :privmsg "fatblueduck" "PCL is very dense with information and I've had to re-read a few chapters" nil)
(3473814226 :privmsg "Darxus" "Heh." nil)
(3473814269 :privmsg "Darxus" "My entire job has basically been perl for 7 years :(" nil)
(3473814287 :privmsg "Darxus" "I can't really claim to be able to program in any other languages at this point." nil)
(3473814400 :privmsg "fatblueduck" "Darxus: why have you decided to learn Lisp?" nil)
(3473814430 :quit "billstclair" "Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)" "n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair")
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(3473814531 :privmsg "Darxus" "fatblueduck: ESR's comments on LISP... affected me, years ago." nil)
(3473814536 :part "JonSmith" nil "n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net")
(3473814547 :privmsg "Darxus" "Everything I hear about it excites me." nil)
(3473814554 :privmsg "Darxus" "Today I read a bunch of Graham's stuff." nil)
(3473814581 :privmsg "Darxus" "Makes me wonder why it isn't a lot more common." nil)
(3473814601 :privmsg "fatblueduck" "Darxus: you have a romanticised interest in Lisp..." nil)
(3473814609 :privmsg "fatblueduck" "Darxus: do you like math?" nil)
(3473814618 :privmsg "Darxus" "Today I asked a coworker how familiar he was with Lisp, suspecting that he might be.  He wrote a thesis or something on it.  Has never written any lisp for the company we work for." nil)
(3473814673 :privmsg "Darxus" "fatblueduck: That's a hard question.  I.. had an unfortunate experience with all of academia, including my math teachers.  So it's hard to say.  But some of it, yes, definitely." nil)
(3473814687 :privmsg "fatblueduck" "Darxus: I understand" nil)
(3473814729 :privmsg "Dorian" "Anyone interested in trying to solve: (Reverse w/o Append) http://paste.lisp.org/display/94131 (issue lies with single element lists)" nil)
(3473814743 :quit "davazp" "\"ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)\"" "n=user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net")
(3473814874 :privmsg "fatblueduck" "Dorian: I think you should try a recursive function" nil)
(3473814885 :privmsg "fatblueduck" "Dorian: what are the parameters you must stay within?" nil)
(3473814902 :privmsg "Dorian" "fatblueduck: it is recursive. and i give it a True List and return a True List" nil)
(3473814921 :privmsg "Dorian" "fatblueduck: I wrote the code to what I think is right and it works, but it doesn't work with single element lists" nil)
(3473814925 :privmsg "fatblueduck" "oh gosh sorry" nil)
(3473814927 :privmsg "fatblueduck" "yes" nil)
(3473814958 :privmsg "Dorian" "btw writing the code this way sucks :(. its annoying" nil)
(3473814964 :privmsg "Dorian" "reading it is probably just as bad." nil)
(3473814997 :privmsg "Dorian" "but my teacher is trying to challenge us show us code is completely broken down to basic functions in list" nil)
(3473815001 :privmsg "Dorian" "lisp*" nil)
(3473815024 :privmsg "Darxus" "Man I wish I took lisp in college.  Probably wasn't even offered." nil)
(3473815047 :privmsg "Darxus" "I signed up for x86 assembler, but it was cancelled because not enough people signed up :(" nil)
(3473815051 :privmsg "Darxus" "So I never learned assembler." nil)
(3473815092 :privmsg "Dorian" "im not really taking lisp in college, im just taking ACL2 which runs lisp files to verify theorems" nil)
(3473815111 :privmsg "fatblueduck" "Dorian: are you 'allowed' to use eql?" nil)
(3473815111 :join "urnthr" nil "n=James@c-98-227-36-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net")
(3473815112 :privmsg "Darxus" "I understand the business sense of hot-pluggable java coders, but I'm really disappointed that, say, google isn't constantly developing its own language(s)." nil)
(3473815137 :privmsg "Dorian" "fatblueduck: unfortunately no :(." nil)
(3473815147 :privmsg "Dorian" "fatblueduck: and yes this question is solvable." nil)
(3473815168 :privmsg "Darxus" "It's funny, a few days ago I was thinking (yet again) that I should learn java for marketability, and the stuff I've read in the last couple days has made me think I want to *avoid* the kind of jobs that would want me to know java." nil)
(3473815246 :join "viz" nil "n=hxswy@206-251-43-87.directcom.com")
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(3473815247 :join "benny" nil "n=benny@i577A3451.versanet.de")
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(3473815415 :privmsg "p_l" "Darxus: Google started its own language, though (and they got a rather good team on it IMHO)" nil)
(3473815498 :privmsg "fatblueduck" "Dorian: I think I'm getting close... :)" nil)
(3473815535 :join "zunss" nil "n=ram@74-129-230-140.dhcp.insightbb.com")
(3473815536 :quit "zunss" "K-lined" "n=ram@74-129-230-140.dhcp.insightbb.com")
(3473815563 :privmsg "Modius" "Learning s-expressions and macros helps with your wider language understanding" nil)
(3473815579 :privmsg "Modius" "Most programmers have to work in C# or Java.  Take C#" nil)
(3473815585 :privmsg "Dorian" "fatblueduck: interesting. yeh i smashed my head against a wall till i got that" nil)
(3473815624 :privmsg "Modius" "C# and Java started out equal; but in C# you can explore closures etc., Java is more limiting." nil)
(3473815654 :quit "Kenjin" "\"Computer has gone to sleep\"" "n=josesant@242-71.dial.nortenet.pt")
(3473815677 :privmsg "Phoodus" "Java has a certain sense of closures, but C# adds in lambdas (delegates)" nil)
(3473815718 :privmsg "Modius" "The short syntax lambda makes a significant difference in using higher-order functions" nil)
(3473815719 :privmsg "Phoodus" "but I agree, C# took Java and moved forward.  Java is trying to play catchup without actually breaking anything internally and thus is more clunky" nil)
(3473815736 :privmsg "Modius" "We're talking a high factor of difference between a C#3 lambda and - whatever you're calling a closure in Java." nil)
(3473815741 :privmsg "cools" "i never want to do java, ever" nil)
(3473815744 :privmsg "cools" "ever again" nil)
(3473815765 :privmsg "Darxus" "p_l:  Cool, thanks.  http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2009/11/go-googles-programming-language.html" nil)
(3473815767 :privmsg "Modius" "Most of the kinds of people who work in Java and C# program the same way.  But in C# you can choose to use certain higher features." nil)
(3473815823 :privmsg "Phoodus" "java has \"closures\" in the sense that an object created within a scope can reference the variables of the scope" nil)
(3473815828 :privmsg "Modius" "For \"Go\" they should have added:  \"Has to generally look like C++ so people will use it\"" nil)
(3473815844 :privmsg "Modius" "The difference in verbosity will impact the degree to which you will use them." nil)
(3473815849 :privmsg "Phoodus" "whereas true closures would have s/object/function/" nil)
(3473815890 :privmsg "Modius" "The difference means that in C#3 you may pile up a bunch of selects (map), where (filter) etc. etc. in one expression where in Java you - would do something with loops and not use lazy-lists." nil)
(3473815922 :privmsg "Modius" "One is a clumsy callback assist the other is something you can write most of your program in." nil)
(3473815980 :privmsg "Phoodus" "java requires an interface for every place you want to use a lambda" nil)
(3473815989 :privmsg "Phoodus" "and creating an anonymous inner class" nil)
(3473816008 :privmsg "Phoodus" "so it's technically functionally equivalent, though a real pain to write" nil)
(3473816020 :quit "lukego" nil "n=lukegorr@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my")
(3473816046 :privmsg "Modius" "In C# now you can do stuff like x => x + 1 - clobbering even the verbose delegate (int x) { return .... }   .  It's not just a matter of pain - it's enough pain that you just won't do it." nil)
(3473816087 :privmsg "Modius" "Even without linq you could write a stack of higher-order-functions in a library and do the same (passing in lambdas etc).  The same code in Java would be a horror story (probably not possible with the interfaces).  It just wouldn't be done." nil)
(3473816109 :privmsg "Modius" "When something has a factor of 10 more boilerplate, and some of it has to be outside the calling function, it's no longer really equivalent." nil)
(3473816127 :privmsg "Phoodus" "vs new IntLambda() { @override public int work(int x) { return x+1;}} :)" nil)
(3473816158 :privmsg "Phoodus" "(or equivalent; haven't coded Java in a while for obvious reasons) :)" nil)
(3473816161 :privmsg "Modius" "Can you even write map with that?" nil)
(3473816165 :privmsg "Phoodus" "yeah" nil)
(3473816179 :privmsg "Modius" "For any type?  Or does it have to be typed to one type in the interface?" nil)
(3473816180 :privmsg "Phoodus" "and the IntLambda body still can reference the outer lexical environment" nil)
(3473816187 :privmsg "Phoodus" "it has to be typed for the interface" nil)
(3473816191 :privmsg "Modius" "No - I mean can I write a map which takes and emits a lazy-list." nil)
(3473816194 :privmsg "Modius" "Of any type" nil)
(3473816195 :quit "urantherz" "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" "n=James@c-98-227-36-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net")
(3473816195 :privmsg "Phoodus" "well, you can use generics or Object casting" nil)
(3473816217 :privmsg "Phoodus" "and of course I'm talking pure hackery, not something that Java intends to be used that way" nil)
(3473816224 :quit "Zhivago" "Remote closed the connection" "n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com")
(3473816227 :privmsg "Modius" "It's not equivalent. You won't code that way." nil)
(3473816243 :privmsg "Phoodus" "it's \"technically functionally equivalent\", like I said" nil)
(3473816257 :privmsg "Modius" "So's cracking out my assembler if we're going there." nil)
(3473816262 :privmsg "Phoodus" "right" nil)
(3473816262 :privmsg "Modius" "Too verbose.  It will not be used." nil)
(3473816272 :privmsg "Phoodus" "it's not that Java can't do it, it's that you don't want to do it in Java :)" nil)
(3473816275 :privmsg "Modius" "My position stands - you work in C# you will have the chance to write code you won't be in Java." nil)
(3473816303 :privmsg "Modius" "I mention the choice as that's what most people who push buttons for a living will be cornered into coding for (well, and maybe some sql)" nil)
(3473829307 :join "ccl-logbot" nil "~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com")
(3473829307 :rpl_topicwhotime "barjavel.freenode.net" "Xof" 3473602108)
(3473829307 :names "barjavel.freenode.net" "ccl-logbot boyscared Sergio` rullie billstclair lichtblau l_a_m kami` Xof johs alexsuraci Kolyan ianmcorvidae|alt koning_robot kencausey tomaw wasabi TR2N housel stepnem Draggor guaqua Ralith pok Jasko sepult` Reaver Taggnostr antifuchs djm joga Orest^bnc fihi09 setheus Beetny Modius oconnore_ snorble__ drewc rares ttt-- rbancroft gz arbscht Demosthenes luis aking kom_ mornfall Quadrescence Athas NNshag cmatei fmu fda314925 lnostdal pavelludiq clog cmeow" nil)
(3473829307 :names "barjavel.freenode.net" "dto araujo qebab proq dmiles_afk moocow ryepup lukjad007 mrSpec Tristam eldragon mtd beach Adlai spoofy addled stoop dfox hohum sjbach smanek legumbre G0SUB retupmoca skeptomai|away stassats` Holcxjo cods Aisling milanj- tltstc urnthr prxq lacedaemon clop RaceCondition holycow Borbus nus hypno slyrus daniel_ Ri- Phoodus dostoyevsky bipt` ramus bakkdoor djinni` sykopomp hoeq_ PissedNumlock cupe [df] ace4016 koollman z0d Xantoz dsop Guest3692 guenthr" nil)
(3473829307 :names "barjavel.freenode.net" "tvaalen Patzy cpt_nemo Raptelan tic ianmcorvidae SandGorgon jrockway nha lpolzer @ChanServ Tabmow" nil)
(3473829308 :join "pjb" nil "~t@90.Red-88-30-103.staticIP.rima-tde.net")
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(3473829318 :join "anekos" nil "~anekos@pl932.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp")
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(3473829355 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829361 :join "weirdo" nil "w@rodney.ltd.pl")
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(3473829372 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829373 :join "ASau`" nil "~user@77.246.230.183")
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(3473829389 :join "_deepfire" nil "~deepfire@80.92.100.69")
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(3473829390 :nick "weirdo" "Guest12365" "w@rodney.ltd.pl")
(3473829391 :join "rotty" nil "~rotty@78.41.115.190")
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(3473829393 :quit "92AAAAGUJ" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829402 :join "Helheim" nil "~helheim@93.186.169.24")
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(3473829422 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829437 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829438 :quit "ianmcorvidae" "Ping timeout: 245 seconds" "~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae")
(3473829442 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829450 :join "demmeln" nil "~Adium@dslb-094-216-053-039.pools.arcor-ip.net")
(3473829452 :privmsg "prxq" "goog morning" nil)
(3473829457 :privmsg "prxq" "bah" nil)
(3473829457 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829459 :join "_3b__" nil "foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com")
(3473829463 :join "codemonkeyx" nil "~codemonke@www.sinclair-durer.net")
(3473829463 :join "pragma_" nil "~pragma@blackshell.com")
(3473829464 :join "chillywilly" nil "~danielb@cpe-65-28-61-156.wi.res.rr.com")
(3473829465 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829470 :join "eno" nil "~eno@nslu2-linux/eno")
(3473829474 :join "cmm" nil "~cmm@109.64.24.30")
(3473829478 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829483 :join "brennanc" nil "~brennanc@cpe-76-166-156-65.socal.res.rr.com")
(3473829484 :join "Tordek" nil "tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-ojspshiaoviptpsm")
(3473829487 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829492 :nick "pragma_" "Guest62166" "~pragma@blackshell.com")
(3473829496 :join "yahooooo" nil "~yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net")
(3473829498 :join "herbieB" nil "~herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com")
(3473829502 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829506 :join "Tabstar" nil "~terry@freenode/staff/tabmow")
(3473829508 :quit "araujo" "Quit: Leaving" "~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo")
(3473829513 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829523 :join "fatblueduck" nil "~chris@71.104.235.97")
(3473829523 :join "borisc" nil "~borisc@borisc2.csbnet.se")
(3473829525 :join "rlonstein" nil "lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net")
(3473829527 :join "30BAAAJB9" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829528 :join "ivan_chernetsky" nil "~ivan@195.222.66.172")
(3473829533 :join "madsy" nil "~madsy@ti0207a340-1441.bb.online.no")
(3473829533 :quit "30BAAAJB9" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829539 :join "araujo" nil "~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo")
(3473829540 :join "ve" nil "~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk")
(3473829540 :join "easyE" nil "X4qN5vyCQr@panix3.panix.com")
(3473829540 :join "Pepe_" nil "~ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net")
(3473829540 :join "bobrown`" nil "~user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net")
(3473829540 :join "disturbance" nil "ac@c-68-34-160-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net")
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(3473829541 :join "Axioplase_" nil "~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp")
(3473829541 :join "Darxus" nil "~darxus@panic.chaosreigns.com")
(3473829542 :join "Buganini" nil "~buganini@security-hole.info")
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(3473829545 :join "Xach" nil "~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com")
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(3473829546 :join "phadthai" nil "mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net")
(3473829548 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829553 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829557 :join "xristos" nil "~x@research.suspicious.org")
(3473829561 :join "tobetchi" nil "~tobetchi@p923e60.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp")
(3473829562 :join "ClaudiaS" nil "~user@mail2.siscog.pt")
(3473829568 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829569 :nick "xristos" "Guest428" "~x@research.suspicious.org")
(3473829571 :join "ceineke_" nil "~chris@24.235.36.231")
(3473829573 :join "spiaggia`" nil "~user@armadillo.labri.fr")
(3473829573 :privmsg "stassats`" "when will this end?" nil)
(3473829574 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829588 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829591 :join "nuba" nil "~nuba@pauleira.com")
(3473829593 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829601 :join "PuffTheMagic" nil "~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic")
(3473829618 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829623 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829648 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829653 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829661 :join "rapacity" nil "~prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com")
(3473829661 :join "tychoish" nil "~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net")
(3473829693 :quit "Guest62166" "Changing host" "~pragma@blackshell.com")
(3473829693 :join "Guest62166" nil "~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842")
(3473829710 :join "naresh" nil "~nareshov@unaffiliated/nareshov")
(3473829712 :nick "Guest62166" "pragma_" "~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842")
(3473829713 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829720 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829722 :privmsg "Adlai" "stassats`, 210 people are already joined, we usually have ~300 I think, so... soon!" nil)
(3473829734 :join "hicx174" nil "~hicx174@211.214.227.235")
(3473829738 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829744 :nick "naresh" "nareshov" "~nareshov@unaffiliated/nareshov")
(3473829748 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829763 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829764 :privmsg "prxq" "stassats`: no idea. Freenode is transitioning to a new server software; I presume that that is the explanation" nil)
(3473829766 :privmsg "Adlai" "actually it looks like the joins are done and now it's just flooding :\\" nil)
(3473829769 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829782 :quit "tvaalen" "Changing host" "~r@terminal.se")
(3473829782 :join "tvaalen" nil "~r@unaffiliated/tvaal")
(3473829783 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829788 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829792 :privmsg "prxq" "right, maybe banning alexsuraci would be a good idea" nil)
(3473829803 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829807 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829817 :join "Khisanth" nil "~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net")
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(3473829839 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829840 :join "Fade" nil "fade@outrider.deepsky.com")
(3473829840 :join "``Erik" nil "~erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net")
(3473829840 :join "mgr" nil "~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de")
(3473829840 :join "p_l" nil "plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-igwzuylvcefojbgi")
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(3473829841 :quit "pr" "Changing host" "~pr@li151-63.members.linode.com")
(3473829841 :join "pr" nil "~pr@unaffiliated/pr")
(3473829863 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829868 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829893 :join "vsync" nil "~vsync@24.173.173.82")
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(3473829913 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829918 :join "mikezor" nil "~mikael@c-e3e970d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se")
(3473829919 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829961 :join "yacin" nil "~yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu")
(3473829963 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829969 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473829982 :quit "Tabstar" "Quit: leaving" "~terry@freenode/staff/tabmow")
(3473830032 :quit "rapacity" "Changing host" "~prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com")
(3473830032 :join "rapacity" nil "~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity")
(3473830043 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473830049 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473830064 :privmsg "prxq" "anyone here with op privileges?" nil)
(3473830083 :join "jyujin" nil "~mdeininge@vs166245.vserver.de")
(3473830103 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473830109 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473830128 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473830132 :mode "ChanServ" "+o Krystof" "ChanServ@services.")
(3473830133 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473830149 :join "CrazyEddy" nil "~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy")
(3473830171 :join "Vinnipeg" nil "~sa1vador@95.84.9.167")
(3473830173 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473830176 :quit "milanj-" "Quit: Leaving" "~milan@109.93.76.169")
(3473830178 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473830179 :mode "Krystof" "+b *!alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net" "~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk")
(3473830179 :part "Vinnipeg" nil "~sa1vador@95.84.9.167")
(3473830189 :privmsg "prxq" "Krystof: thanks :-)" nil)
(3473830207 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473830213 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473830230 :join "Ginei_Morioka" nil "irssi_log@78.114.188.207")
(3473830231 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473830238 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473830247 :join "lemoinem" nil "~swoog@66.51.248.210")
(3473830260 :join "guaq" nil "gua@82-128-221-166-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net")
(3473830278 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473830281 :privmsg "Krystof" "ok, clearly I didn't get that right" nil)
(3473830283 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473830289 :mode "Krystof" "-b *!alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net" "~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk")
(3473830289 :join "Dodek" nil "dodek@sh.8px.pl")
(3473830290 :join "rahul" nil "~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net")
(3473830310 :privmsg "prxq" "that, or the new ircd is buggy" nil)
(3473830318 :privmsg "prxq" "or just different" nil)
(3473830328 :join "alexsuraci" nil "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473830329 :privmsg "Krystof" "maybe it has an unlimited-size ban list" nil)
(3473830333 :mode "Krystof" "+b *!*@*.aubnin.fios.verizon.net" "~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk")
(3473830334 :quit "alexsuraci" "Excess Flood" "~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net")
(3473830422 :quit "G0SUB" "Read error: Connection reset by peer" "~ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub")
(3473830470 :join "lithper2_" nil "~chatzilla@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net")
(3473830483 :join "G0SUB" nil "~ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub")
(3473830536 :join "mburrows" nil "~mburrows@host86-128-230-9.range86-128.btcentralplus.com")
(3473830561 :join "myrkraverk" nil "~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk")
(3473830564 :privmsg "kencausey" "Did that last oen work?" nil)
(3473830593 :join "saikatc" nil "~saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net")
(3473830674 :join "raison" nil "~raison@70.90.182.149")
(3473830684 :join "ironChicken" nil "~nnnnnnric@mx.lurk.org")
(3473830694 :join "kwinz3" nil "kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at")
(3473830742 :join "splittist" nil "~bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-bzdyrwobeclpgtzw")
(3473830753 :join "grouzen" nil "~grouzen@91.214.124.2")
(3473830763 :privmsg "Krystof" "I think so" nil)
(3473830775 :privmsg "Krystof" "it might have banned all of some american county in the process, of course" nil)
(3473830779 :mode "Krystof" "-o Krystof" "~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk")
(3473830790 :quit "nus" "Changing host" "~nus@81.24.80.233")
(3473830790 :join "nus" nil "~nus@unaffiliated/nus")
(3473830797 :quit "ironChicken" "*.net *.split" "~nnnnnnric@mx.lurk.org")
(3473830797 :quit "Dodek" "*.net *.split" "dodek@sh.8px.pl")
(3473830797 :quit "lemoinem" "*.net *.split" "~swoog@66.51.248.210")
(3473830797 :quit "Ginei_Morioka" "*.net *.split" "irssi_log@78.114.188.207")
(3473830933 :privmsg "splittist" "Krystof: you can't make omlettes..." nil)
(3473830940 :join "ironChicken" nil "~nnnnnnric@mx.lurk.org")
(3473830941 :join "Dodek" nil "dodek@sh.8px.pl")
(3473830941 :join "lemoinem" nil "~swoog@66.51.248.210")
(3473830941 :join "Ginei_Morioka" nil "irssi_log@78.114.188.207")
(3473831029 :privmsg "kencausey" "Krystof: in #slate I just banned his exact nick host combo and that seemed to be fine, as he's not moving around" nil)
(3473831069 :privmsg "kencausey" "I mean, I literaly cut and paste it, the tilde is relevant now" nil)
(3473831073 :join "blast_hardcheese" nil "~blast_har@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net")
(3473831105 :mode "ChanServ" "+o Krystof" "ChanServ@services.")
(3473831130 :quit "smanek" "Quit: This computer has gone to sleep" "~smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net")
(3473831134 :mode "Krystof" "-b *!*@*.aubnin.fios.verizon.net" "~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk")
(3473831135 :join "srcerer" nil "~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com")
(3473831136 :mode "Krystof" "+b *!~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net" "~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk")
(3473831147 :privmsg "kencausey" "watch  me be proved wrong now ;)" nil)
(3473831263 :quit "SandGorgon" "Ping timeout: 245 seconds" "~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net")
(3473831264 :quit "Khisanth" "Quit: Leaving" "~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net")
(3473831275 :quit "TR2N" "Ping timeout: 240 seconds" "email@89-180-236-85.net.novis.pt")
(3473831281 :join "Khisanth" nil "~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net")
(3473831298 :join "felipe" nil "~felipe@my.nada.kth.se")
(3473831299 :join "TR2N`" nil "email@89-180-144-225.net.novis.pt")
(3473831326 :join "Fufie" nil "~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com")
(3473831356 :quit "lacedaemon" "Ping timeout: 260 seconds" "~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix")
(3473831410 :privmsg "prxq" "kencausey: interesting. He seemed to only join #lisp" nil)
(3473831446 :privmsg "kencausey" "I'm not sure what you mean, he was joining at least 2 other channels I'm in" nil)
(3473831457 :nick "TR2N`" "TR2N" "email@89-180-144-225.net.novis.pt")
(3473831492 :privmsg "prxq" "kencausey: i did a /whois on that nic and there only #lisp appeared." nil)
(3473831534 :privmsg "prxq" "maybe he was already banned everywhere eles :-)" nil)
(3473831536 :join "Vinnipeg" nil "~innocentb@95.84.9.167")
(3473831564 :join "morphling" nil "~stefan@gssn-5f755e64.pool.mediaWays.net")
(3473831659 :privmsg "kencausey" "maybe he was joining each channel and dropping out one at a time" nil)
(3473831664 :quit "mburrows" "Ping timeout: 260 seconds" "~mburrows@host86-128-230-9.range86-128.btcentralplus.com")
(3473831675 :quit "hicx174" "Ping timeout: 256 seconds" "~hicx174@211.214.227.235")
(3473831731 :join "prip" nil "~foo@host168-121-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it")
(3473831997 :join "hicx174" nil "~hicx174@211.214.227.235")
(3473832086 :join "potatishandlarn" nil "~potatisha@c-4f66120c-74736162.cust.telenor.se")
(3473832092 :join "lacedaemon" nil "~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix")
(3473832308 :quit "Ralith" "Read error: Connection reset by peer" "~ralith@69.90.48.97")
(3473832364 :join "nostoi" nil "~nostoi@243.Red-79-147-213.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net")
(3473832371 :join "Ralith" nil "~ralith@69.90.48.97")
(3473832373 :join "kiuma" nil "~kiuma@93-35-252-126.ip57.fastwebnet.it")
(3473832500 :join "ejs" nil "~eugen@94-248-40-209.dynamic.peoplenet.ua")
(3473832622 :quit "nostoi"