17:58:49 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:49 17:58:49 -!- names: ccl-logbot rme fgtech v3rt name Jasko manuel_ rdd mrsolo abeaumont Reaver_1 Fufie mejja slyrus_ kami- bobrown`` kjbrock froog____ slash_ Nshag jlouis lemonodor lesceil antgreen salex amnesiac jfrancis stassats replor yvdriess _zenon_ fihi09` tst__ H4ns booyaa segv_ pchrist Odin- rswarbrick jewel davazp hkBst bpt cracki_ dkcl Yuuhi deximer cmm hsaliak jlf tcr NoorDextor JuanDaugherty jeng dlowe malumalu tsuru cemerick sad0ur neurogeek ia sellout 17:58:49 -!- names: chris2 araujo lukego Hun beach vasa-work benny xinming_ attila_lendvai jazen dmiles_afk Chrononaut Balooga mcxx Patzy rread djinni` dboswell` dfox cddr plutonas sbok minion specbot Cryovat Bzek yango wlr scode pjb birdsbite scottj ltbarcly djkthx arbscht_ radu9 Philonous isomer gigamonkey Eno_ dtulig grnman CrazyEddy emma dnm eno Aisling felipe Adamant sverrej gonzojive hugod daniel lde lisppaste ramus` ianmcorvidae bougyman sei_ holycow scrav 17:58:49 -!- names: eevar sely borism sohail Mr_SpOOn weirdo agemo wgl bdowning larstobi keithr retupmoca lnostdal [eDu] yahooooo carlf thom__ sykopomp envi^office schme matimago dwave mgr Haplo sabetts pchrist|univ mogunus mtd spacebat jeremiah housel Krystof Draggor mathrick kpreid thijso thedonvaughn kleppari FluffBall jlf` maskd manveru pierre_thierry gzip4 rsynnott nyef brickhazel aking zbigniew rumbleca hefner authentic spiaggia lemoinem prip phadthai egn 17:58:49 -!- names: joga r00k Soulman foom joshe boyscared billstclair emacs-dw` bob_f mqt Piranha__ fisxoj pkhuong BrianRice V-ille wolfboy22 cky Paraselene_ tessier herbieB enn ahaas drewc vcgomes Bucciarati kg4qxk azuk` Partyzant kmkaplan Tristam michaelw z0d xian pragma_ technik Leonidas antifuchs Zhivago mornfall hnaz Xof te syamajala_ dto im_alone mr_ank quasisane gz sboyette qebab Jarvellis msingh persi jk REPLeffect tarbo Buganini dcrawford robot_jesus 17:58:49 -!- names: cods slyrus anekos jollygood_______ Khisanth tic srcerer albino r0bby cmeme chandler delYsid jrockway cYmen mikezor bohanlon mrd- bedlam m4thrick_ eirik pdewacht ``Erik dostoyevsky ineiros dublpaws abend turbo24prg fnordus drforr_ nasloc__ Thas jsnell jsimonss p8m _3b faheem pok e271 simias bfein johs kuhzoo Riastradh Fade cipher Fractal bunz l_a_m SUNWjoejaxx guenther__ Guest26197 Adrinael mvilleneuve lucca Xach chii jamesjb patmatch andrewy 17:58:59 chandler: Hmm yes you're probably right. Anyway, I'd better be back to work! Thanks for all the suggestions. 17:59:03 yay, logs 17:59:22 thanks rme! 17:59:25 (format t "~20,1,0,'r<~>") 17:59:35 gigamonkey: yes, I was just about to suggest that 17:59:39 rswarbrick: there you go. 17:59:51 Ooh! 18:00:04 *tic* needs to learn format properly... 18:01:08 minion: logs? 18:01:08 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ ; older logs may be available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (down as of 2008/09/24) 18:01:15 Ahah - justification! I'll get reading, thanks for all the help. 18:01:23 Maybe at least one out of three channel loggers will be working at a given time now. 18:04:16 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 18:04:22 ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:01 Hun` [n=Hun@dhcp6.augusta.de] has joined #lisp 18:05:15 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-18-215.kosnet.ru] has quit ["."] 18:07:40 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.103.154] has joined #lisp 18:08:24 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 18:08:33 heh, "I wonder if #lisp can be fixed, or if we should spend our energy convincing people to try out comp.lang.lisp first instead" 18:09:04 *Xach* is not ready to be fixed, with such a small family 18:09:04 frying pan / fire ? 18:09:11 emember to spay or neuter your IRC channel! 18:09:25 :] 18:09:41 *tic* doesn't even have a family. maybe that's a reason for getting fixed?) 18:10:26 Why doesn't this work? (defun hej (x) (+ x 2) (- 4 3) ) 18:10:44 It works perfectly. 18:10:49 v3rt: it should work (in that it will return the value 1 and have no side effects) 18:10:55 v3rt, what do you want it to do? 18:10:56 v3rt: it does exactly what you're telling it to do. 18:11:27 hello, I am a Pythonn programmer, searching for enlightment. Could you please help me to choose a lisp dialect. I don't care about usability, libraries etc. I already have all off this with python. I seek new ways of thinking. What would you suggest? 18:11:28 antifuchs: untrue, it has observable side effects 18:11:42 v3rt: have you read clhs defun ? 18:11:43 (hej nil) 18:11:48 jsnell: gnnn. 18:11:51 loxs: read SICP 18:12:14 what is SICP, lucedo? 18:12:15 jsnell: you're right, I give up (: 18:12:20 minion: tell loxs about sicp+ 18:12:20 loxs: please see sicp+: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs. HTML: , PDF: . Code in CL at , in other languages at . Videos at 18:12:25 minion: tell loxs about that-dead-sexy-book 18:12:26 loxs: direct your attention towards that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 18:12:30 loxs, in #lisp, we're biased towards Common Lisp. Maybe reading http://gigamonkeys.com/book (Practical Common Lisp) will help you? 18:12:47 loxs: notice how you don't have to use lisp to think in a new way with sicp: the exercises have been translated into python too. 18:12:50 timor [n=sun@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:13:27 jsnell: btw, I see now that given only very few dollars, it would be viable to try SBCL-build farming and running benchmarks correctly on Amazon EC2. no idea how valuable benchmarks running on virtual machines are, though 18:14:02 antifuchs: are you measuring wall clock time or cycles? 18:14:04 antifuchs: that would depend on whether the VM is sophisticaed enough to count and report the number of instructions excecuted. 18:14:06 antifuchs: probably not very 18:14:09 at least for wall clock 18:14:14 just run the benchmarks on a statistically significant number of vms 18:14:22 not wall clock time, of course 18:14:36 jsnell: good idea (: 18:14:41 and at least some vms can be a bit weird about reported cycles, too 18:15:06 and remember to benchmark each build at various times of the day to offset for cyclical load / temperature / etc changes 18:15:22 Another Coders at Work fan off C++: Jamie Zawinski: "C++ is just an abomination. Everything is wrong with it in every way." 18:15:26 right. so, more than a few dollars (: 18:15:37 Also, build in a hockey stick graph to account for climate change :-) 18:15:42 gigamonkey: haha 18:15:51 But tell us how you really feel, Jamie. 18:15:59 gigamonkey: I confirm, about C++... 18:16:21 and it's not like boinkmarks is being flooded by sbcl commits right now either :-) 18:16:44 jsnell: not now, but I dread the buildup of history (: 18:16:44 Probably the nicest words about C++ came from Guy Steele and I suspect that has more to do with him just being generally nice. 18:16:45 gigamonkey, [c++] whee 18:17:55 sondermann [n=user@20-224-dsl.kielnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:43 are you always that helpful, guys :) 18:18:50 thank you 18:19:00 Not according to the guy commenting on Weinreb's blog. :) 18:19:09 guilt-tripping 18:19:25 hmm, that reminds me of paul graham's repeated statement that people who like CL are silly, because even the people who created CL don't like it (or weren't happy with it, or something like that) 18:19:47 lui1 [n=luis@bl5-52-244.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:20:20 therefore, we should all like arc instead, eh? 18:20:22 -!- lui1 is now known as luis 18:20:51 I don't think that was part of the argument. But I do wonder who he might have had in mind, specifically. 18:21:34 Xach: in that context I think CL is Worse is Better compared to some platonic-ideal The Right Thing. 18:21:58 the worst language, except for all the others 18:21:59 The whole point of CL was to be a pragmatic compromise so people could keep getting checks from DARPA. 18:22:05 (to paraphrase Chruchill or someone) 18:22:44 Obviously folks at the coal face of making those compromises are not going to be 100% satisfied with the result, compared to their original uncompromised positions. 18:22:46 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-164-83.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:23:01 gigamonkey: still, i wish it wasn't so vague, so i could decide if (say) John Foderaro's distaste for CL is even relevant. 18:23:22 compared to the scary old C++ standardisation procedure, I suspect it was a walk in the park 18:23:49 (I think C++0X is going to be C++1X at this point) 18:23:56 Does Foderaro have distaste for CL. I think he just dislikes pathnames and IF 18:24:29 I wonder if he came up with modern mode, too :) 18:24:37 tltstc [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 18:24:47 I can understand disliking pathnames 18:24:49 I suspect he did 18:25:12 *gigamonkey* has some vague feeling that Haflich was involved in modern mode but has no real facts to back that up. 18:25:37 do even allegro users actually use modern mode much? 18:25:55 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 18:26:17 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.103.154] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:26:18 anyway, i think it would make a better discussion point if he actually said "Jim Lispgraybeard really hated how CLOS turned out, so you should too." 18:26:52 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb8e76.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 18:26:56 Xach: true. Wasn't he probably refering to Brooks and Gabriel's "A Critique of Common Lisp"? 18:27:00 instead of "anonymous people have unnamed complaints about cl, you should too" 18:27:23 gigamonkey: i didn't see that in context. and of course, i'm doing it too, because i haven't bothered to look up the exact places i remember graham saying things along those lines. 18:27:24 he's not leaving people much of a choice of languages to like, is he? 18:27:27 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:34 rsynnott, they're still aiming for the final draft or whatever they call it in 09 18:27:36 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:29:13 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb8e76.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:29:30 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb8e76.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 18:32:11 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3e39c3422dea4559] has joined #lisp 18:34:05 jsnell: are you wrangling the release this month? 18:37:47 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-063-230.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:39 -!- Jarvellis is now known as xchat 18:38:53 -!- xchat is now known as Jarvellis 18:39:01 talks about sbcl release remind me that another month is coming to an end 18:39:13 Xach: no, kreuter is 18:39:46 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-242-151.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 18:41:30 bsund [n=bsund@213.180.77.196] has joined #lisp 18:41:33 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:41:52 Reaver_11 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has joined #lisp 18:41:58 is it ok to use bad words in this channel? 18:42:21 anyhow 18:42:24 fuck no 18:43:20 ya fuck you, the thing i wanted to say was.. 18:43:43 you can use bad words, that is, but they will only amplify the embarrassment you'll feel when you find out whatever you want to curse was your fault 18:44:00 :) 18:44:19 when i noticed there was 310 peps here 18:44:23 i wanted to say 18:44:25 -!- Reaver_11 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has quit [Client Quit] 18:44:30 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbad93.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:43 holy shit >300 peps in a lisp channel 18:45:03 Reaver_11 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has joined #lisp 18:45:09 but most chans on freenode is.. "watch you language" 18:45:16 you'r 18:45:31 thwap 18:45:34 your 18:45:36 I'm more annoyed about your complete lack of regard for grammar and punctuation than the odd scatological word 18:45:37 fuck english coding i know 18:45:38 "peps" and "chans" are bad words 18:45:58 Peps is the plural of pep. As is a pepping-up talk, I presume. 18:46:05 emarsden [n=user@mir31-3-82-234-52-44.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:33 Krystof: I'm truly sorry Sir, can I have a cup of tea, please? 18:46:51 bsund: are you a native speaker. If not, excusable. If so, well... 18:46:52 bsund: You should probably start talking about Lisp. 18:46:54 *? 18:47:21 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 18:47:37 emarsden! 18:47:55 gigamonkey: :) - I thought this was a much support as social channel. 18:48:24 bsund: No. 18:48:26 a/as 18:48:29 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:48:39 bsund: This channel is for talking about Lisp. 18:48:39 Xach: ok :) 18:49:04 hello Father Krystof! 18:49:10 Xach: noticed 18:49:35 -!- Reaver_11 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has left #lisp 18:49:41 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc60.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 18:50:50 Don't people peek at the topic of channels? 18:51:04 _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:51:27 tic: you seriously suggest *reading*? 18:51:30 let us speak of it no more, and continue with the glorious advancement of Lisp. 18:53:32 cmm: Do You means as in a *buffer* or generally reading a 'Book'? 18:54:12 Reading is extremely underrated. 18:54:35 as well as silence 18:55:02 Yah I'm wasting bandwith here. ;) 18:55:42 Less chat, faster pr0n, no? 18:57:49 i find myself sometimes using tagbody and handler-bind to retry something when some condition is retryable. i'll show you an example, maybe i should be doing something differently... 18:58:26 Xach: what's that, Lisp porn? 18:58:35 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:58:35 *gigamonkey* likes the dirty Lisp talk. 18:58:44 *michaelw* is staring at a buffer full of tagbodies ATM :) 18:59:11 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B57A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:59:25 http://xach.com/tmp/restartme.lisp 18:59:44 Xach: I've done that, too 18:59:57 Am I missing out on some obviously better construct (maybe something related to restarts?) 19:01:35 -!- luis [n=luis@bl5-52-244.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:01:55 (i was going to paste it, but dns is fouled up for paste.lisp.org and www.common-lisp.net) 19:02:06 Interesting; it's working for me. 19:02:10 loop and handler-case? 19:02:15 -!- bsund [n=bsund@213.180.77.196] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:02:29 http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/paste.lisp.org says: It's just you. paste.lisp.org is up. 19:03:01 It does seem a bit odd to signal *and* handle locally. 19:03:04 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-252-237.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:38 chandler: how about http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/www.common-lisp.net ? 19:03:57 Yay for DNS caching. 19:04:01 chitech [n=khuongdp@0x573a1fb3.svgnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:04:43 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user131-29.wireless.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 19:05:02 Xach: I second jsnell's suggestion, as it rolls the block nil, tagbody, and (go retry) bits into one idiom 19:05:26 and the lambdas 19:05:47 And you can throw in (loop repeat X ...) to throttle the number of times you'll retry. 19:06:25 -!- fihi09` [n=user@pool-96-224-173-159.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:06:35 fihi09` [n=user@pool-96-224-173-159.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:31 schasi [n=schasi@p54A269B4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:08 Ok, that sounds good to me. 19:08:12 Thanks! 19:08:17 and you can macroexpand-1 the loop when nobody's looking! 19:08:17 And you can get rid of the (declare (ignore condition)) 19:09:01 Is there any reason that request-response shouldn't be responsible for signalling the errors? 19:10:11 it's a lower layer. 19:11:11 Hmmm. 19:11:26 -!- antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-b644abee77111080] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:12:00 Xach: damnit .. i probably messed up the cl-net DNS trying to 'fix; it. 19:12:05 'fix' 19:13:07 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-85-73.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:14:22 gigamonkey: submit-request's interface specifies that it converts amazon responses that indicate amazon errors are converted to real errors that can be handled. request-response just returns them as response objects. 19:14:49 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:14:49 *Xach* sometimes loses track of what he typed before he finishes typing into this lousy keyhole of a text input :( 19:14:53 ya, i forgot to put the www. pointer back. 19:14:54 I see. 19:15:13 i fix, i fix/ 19:15:21 gigamonkey: in addition, certain amazon errors aren't really user-level errors to be handled (the three cases handled there) 19:15:32 _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:16:28 Just on general principles, I'd to have one layer that translates from responses to conditions without any other magic. 19:17:06 If you really wanted to be slick with restarts you could, in the function that signals conditions, provide, for instance, a RETRY restart. 19:17:11 Xach: this is how I'd to it: http://pastebin.ca/1210799 19:18:00 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:20:05 gigamonkey pasted "Using a restart" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67442 19:20:26 *Xach* wishes he could reach paste.lisp.org :( 19:20:52 ou can't? 19:21:12 Xach: it's 80.68.86.115 19:21:40 that will be cl.net 19:21:46 salex: see also drewc's "i fix, i fix" 19:22:04 *Xach* waits for fix 19:22:47 Xach: umm .. i haven't touched paste.lisp.org.... and it WFM... 19:22:52 solus [n=user1@cpe-66-69-208-12.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:23:10 hi, how can I call a predicate that is passed to my function? 19:23:20 like (subset 'pred lst) 19:23:21 paste.lisp.org. 19866 IN CNAME www.common-lisp.net. 19:23:30 solus: funcall 19:23:36 So they are the same. 19:23:38 drewc: what kmcaplan said 19:23:43 kaplan, rather 19:23:53 oic 19:24:07 (sorry for the tabs). 19:25:55 gigamonkey: i think i got layer-shy. there are three or four involved already. 19:27:06 Xach: fair enough. 19:27:50 I like to try and separate signalling, handling, and restarting just to take full advantage of the condition system. 19:27:53 ok, I'm passing a lambda function as the predicate and funcall says that its undefined 19:28:07 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:28:14 Though I guess often that means signalling and restarting is at one layer and then handling is elsewhere. 19:28:14 i think you got your quoting wrong 19:28:16 is that the correct way to do it? 19:28:19 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:40 solus: funcall says what is undefined? 19:29:08 (defun subset (predicate list) (funcall predicate list)) is a trivial example 19:29:48 and how should "predicate" be? 19:30:04 like (setf predicate (lambda (x) (> x 3)))? 19:30:06 (lambda (x) (< x 2)) 19:30:15 gigamonkey annotated #67442 with "some of the layers" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67442#1 19:30:16 (subset (lambda (list) ...) (list 8 3 5)) 19:30:22 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:30:54 (subset (lambda (list) (reverse list)) (list 8 3 5)) ; actually works 19:32:02 I just did something similar to that and inside the function it says that "predicate" is an undefined function 19:32:33 solus pasted "my-subset" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67444 19:32:46 would someone mind taking a look? 19:32:55 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2FD1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:33:00 argh! i don't mind when paste.lisp.org is down for everyone, but when it's just me, it's agonizing! 19:33:02 You want #'mpred. 19:33:07 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:33:08 er, #'mypred 19:33:29 no, just `mypred' 19:33:32 inside my-subset or when I call my-subset 19:33:33 ? 19:33:34 funcall needs function designtator 19:33:50 -!- sverrej [n=sverrej@89.10.27.245] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:01 Er, yeah. What adeht said. 19:34:23 When you call my-subset 19:34:45 why would you want to call with a symbol as an argument? 19:34:52 Xach: what did you do to piss itoff? 19:35:10 i don't like that you can funcall symbols either.. 19:35:37 gigamonkey pasted "The secret to ultimate happiness" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67446 19:35:59 wow, it really works! 19:36:16 salex: DNS issues. 19:36:25 Hun: I find that it's useful to be able to do that 19:36:28 *Xach* growls 19:36:29 Xach: it's OK, I share your pain 19:37:21 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb8e76.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 19:37:58 cannot reach paste.lisp.org from here either 19:38:04 -!- timor [n=sun@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 19:38:14 ah ok, it's not just Xach then (which would have been weird0 19:38:16 Hun: it defers the function lookup to the time of funcall 19:38:20 gigamonkey: hrhr 19:38:46 timor [n=sun@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:39:23 heh 19:39:35 i feel enlightened 19:39:51 holymoly [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:03 -!- H4ns [n=hans@S01060050e80178d2.gv.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:40:15 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [No route to host] 19:41:54 -!- kjbrock [n=brock@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [] 19:42:31 bloody register.com set a hagi TTL when i moved DNS off their servers. 19:42:40 high TTL. 19:42:48 boo 19:42:49 *drewc* boggles. 19:43:02 who does that? 19:43:09 that's bizarre 19:43:10 this is messy... 19:43:14 they increased it when you decided to move DNS? 19:43:21 it wasn't just high the whole time? 19:43:41 i think it was probably high the whole time, but they offered no way to change it that i could see. 19:43:49 what the hell sort of webmail client doesn't let you set reply-to 19:45:03 most? 19:45:21 bstrds 19:46:04 all my non-web access to this account is broken at the moment, so i'm stuck using their half-assed client 19:46:26 anyone know of a lib called ct-utils? 19:48:15 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-179-44-117.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:22 hmm, nevermind, doesn't seem to do anything too useful, anyway 19:52:58 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:55:24 does "to alternate" imply that it's between two things, or can it be any number? 19:56:04 michaelw: (a|(b|c)) = ((a|b)|c) = a|b|c 19:56:16 lets say i start cl-glut's init-thingy inside a bordeaux thread under sbcl, and the display routine contains drawing commands that actually query some object's state and should draw it accordingly, but then i change the state of the object from the repl, and the displayed object is still the same, who is to blame? (besides me) 19:56:37 timor: timings? 19:56:56 pjb: i even put a thread-yield into the display routine 19:57:01 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:57:33 I don't know, but the display routine should probably be called again once your objects are changed. 19:57:37 pjb: on second thought i dont understand what timings you mean 19:57:52 its called several hundred times per second 19:57:59 If you change them _after_ they're displayed, you get the first version on screen. 19:58:19 Ah, then it's perhaps because the display routine caches the data? 19:58:29 i havent told it to do so 19:58:55 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:04 but perhaps some depply-hidden bit of code meant to overtake the world does create a display-list, thanks for the starter 19:59:10 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:23 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:00:01 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@148.87.66.58] has quit ["*poof*"] 20:02:43 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:03:27 why is it never me that fins the simple solutions to my problems? thanx pjb 20:03:36 -!- thom__ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:04:01 timor: i think it's called experience 20:05:02 timor: change your IRC nick to start with an s; it's easier for us 20:06:55 ? 20:07:03 that is a joke 20:07:13 your nickname is equally easy with t! 20:07:20 simor? 20:07:22 stimor? 20:07:40 oh u mean stupor? aww thats not nice 20:07:58 subconscious [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:08:12 *Xach* has no idea what S11001001 meant 20:08:16 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:08:21 `s' is the dominant first letter here 20:08:36 Ahem 20:08:41 I think you will find that X is 20:08:42 stassats:are you a c programmer? 20:08:54 please note that x includes an s sound 20:09:17 timor: i don't think so 20:09:21 :) 20:09:27 timor: why did you ask? 20:09:39 stassats: obsessed with dominant things... 20:11:53 -!- FluffBall [n=doe@adsl-69-231-218-8.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [] 20:11:59 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:00 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [""Nighty nighty, mister mister""] 20:12:05 timor: my vocabulary is poor 20:15:08 Is there a Lispbox type thing that comes with hunchentoot and some other web programming stuff? 20:15:28 clbuild? 20:16:32 -!- jeng [n=user@75.110.231.66] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:16:55 Hm. Sort of. I'm thinking a "batteries included" distribution of lisp, with docs and some example code too. 20:17:47 -!- neurogeek [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:18:05 clbuild? 20:18:09 H4ns [n=hans@S01060050e80178d2.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:06 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:19:39 bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:09 Does it work without a pre-installed lisp? 20:22:11 yes, it fetches lisp 20:22:23 Oh, cool, I didn't know that. 20:23:33 however, it need to build a lisp, and some lisps must be pre-installed in order to build 20:25:14 Ah, okay. 20:27:04 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-179-44-117.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:27:17 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.148.90] has joined #lisp 20:27:36 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 20:28:23 basically, you get dl a binary lisp distribution (say from sbcl's site) and just use that to compile the head source version that clbuild pulls 20:28:44 Hmm, okay. Thanks. 20:28:51 and you also need a C compiler 20:30:18 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 20:31:18 Which lisp implementation works best on windows with hunchentoot? 20:31:30 lispworks 20:32:01 Is anyone working on a hunchentoot port for ECL? 20:32:56 (I ask because ECL seems to have native windows threads) 20:32:58 mogunus: yes, geo carncross works on that, but i think that there are currently issues because of the lack of wide character support in ecl 20:34:01 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:34:30 H4ns: hmm, okay, I guess I'll just page through the relevant mailing lists and see if I can do anything about that :\ 20:35:20 mogunus: there's also ReadyLisp if you're on OSX 20:36:18 i must ask, what is huchentoot? 20:36:27 I'm on linux. Actually, I'm trying to build a lisp distribution that can be double-clickable and instantly ready for web programming 20:36:29 rvirding: lisp webserver 20:36:43 mogunus: that is a cool idea. 20:36:44 hey rvirding! how is LFE coming along? 20:36:53 ah, thank you 20:36:54 With a bunch of documentation. A *bunch* of documentation. 20:37:12 I realize that I will have to write this documentation myself. 20:37:18 LFE is coming along nicely, definitely lisp-2 with cl influence now 20:37:36 new release "real soon now" 20:38:14 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:38:18 what was the breaker for lisp-1-ness? 20:38:24 rvirding: oh, that was you? cool stuff! 20:38:42 yup, it's all my fault 20:38:54 -!- holymoly [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:38:54 problems with lisp-1? ... 20:39:08 erlang VM is definitely more lisp-2 20:39:40 functions with same name different # of args, became strange under lisp-1 20:39:53 especially if defined with let 20:40:07 easier to separate functions and values 20:40:11 bah, modesty. of all the erlangy lisp projects, yours seems to have remained active the longest, with decent results (: 20:40:24 thank you thank you 20:41:11 plugging into erlang compiler backend helps alot 20:41:38 also being completely compatible with rest of erlang 20:41:57 but will never be a "real" cl 20:42:39 not strictly necessary. just has to be a good lisp (: 20:43:00 -!- andrewy [i=andrewy@209.126.180.153] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:43:20 well it is a good lisp if you can accept limitations/features of erlang VM 20:44:07 is there any official web-site for LFE? 20:44:07 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm1.sigma230.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:44:21 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:45:33 no, code on github git://github.com/rvirding/lfe.git 20:45:45 and on trapexit.org, user contributions 20:45:54 ok, thanks 20:45:56 FufieToo [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:46:48 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 20:49:57 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3e39c3422dea4559] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:50:12 for those who have time and inclination, it would be nice to get feed back from lispers, but you need to run and know some erlang 20:50:14 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm1.sigma230.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 20:51:00 rvirding: get lukego into the boat ;) 20:51:01 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 20:51:14 robert! 20:51:21 how's life :) 20:51:35 hi luke, not bad, you lisping now? 20:51:58 rvirding: hang on, are you Joe Armstrong's partner in crime? 20:52:24 no I'm language-nomadic at the moment and devoid of loyalties :) I just came to LA for a couple of months to hack for Alan Kay's group on their research project, it's pretty fun here 20:52:41 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-39f1218e8992bca2] has joined #lisp 20:52:44 yes, i'mthe robert from his hopl paper :-) 20:53:00 He talked about you a bit when I interviewed him. 20:53:07 ah 20:53:10 LFE is a cool idea I'll be sure to take it for a spin one fine day :) 20:53:23 okay I need to pop out for lunch, fun to see you online :) 20:53:31 i wish you would luke, need feedback 20:53:32 rvirding: paper-schmaper, what about the video! ;) 20:53:57 -!- v3rt [n=poe@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 20:54:12 sigh i am hello robert :-( At least I fix the bugs :-) 20:54:22 hehe 20:54:31 if you mean the movie 20:55:50 does iolib support AIO? 20:56:01 AIO??? 20:56:23 async i/o? 20:56:34 realtime posix thing. 20:57:44 io_lib just handles formatting output. As fas as I know there is no driver for posix AIO. 20:58:07 rvirding: I meant iolib-the-cl-library 20:58:11 If there was one written in the right way then you could do "normal" elang i/o to it 20:58:12 michaelw: what do you mean exactly by that ? POSIX AIO ? 20:58:20 fe[nl]ix: yes 20:58:23 no 20:58:23 sorry 20:58:32 bah 20:58:57 posix AIO is highly unportable and buggy 20:59:05 across *nix systems 21:01:01 michaelw: if it worked, it would be nicer to use than select/epoll & co. 21:01:05 well, at the moment, I do unspeakable things, but they work surprisingly well 21:01:30 could you post some code sample ? 21:02:34 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:04:04 fe[nl]ix: I am not using iolib ATM, and the supporting code would be lengthy. perhaps I'll write about it in a couple of days 21:04:40 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user131-29.wireless.utoronto.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:04:49 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 21:06:04 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:07:09 rme_ [n=rme@pool-70-105-89-9.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:44 -!- r00k is now known as coffeetowntown 21:07:55 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:57 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-112-211.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:14:34 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 21:15:06 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user131-29.wireless.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 21:15:19 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:15:51 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:35 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:19:24 -!- sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has quit [] 21:28:25 -!- coffeetowntown [n=ben@216.93.247.56] has left #lisp 21:28:36 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:29:15 -!- Hun` [n=Hun@dhcp6.augusta.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:30:42 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:34:07 -!- chitech [n=khuongdp@0x573a1fb3.svgnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 21:35:43 prongla [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:44 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 21:35:49 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2950949730059754521 21:35:55 alan kay think lisp is cool 21:36:11 he also bashes you users for being conservative about lisp so no new lisp comes 21:36:24 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-179-44-117.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:43 prongla: and what do you think, or are you just trolling? 21:37:24 -!- dkcl [n=dan@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 21:37:26 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:37:31 -!- im_alone is now known as maxote 21:37:35 -!- prongla [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:37:43 prongla [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:38:07 i think lispers should embrace clojure and arc and then build on them 21:38:14 take lisp to the new level 21:38:20 andrewy [i=andrewy@209.126.180.153] has joined #lisp 21:38:24 Arc is retrograde. 21:38:26 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has left #lisp 21:38:42 embrace them directly to the bottom of the ocean ? 21:38:48 well arc at least 21:38:48 throw out all the unncessary stuff, simplify thw syntax and embrace concurrecny constructs 21:38:50 prongla: thank you for letting us know what we should do! 21:39:01 embrce ourity but also a better cleaner object-system 21:39:15 purity 21:39:19 hah 21:39:22 (...) 21:39:23 clos upgrade 21:39:26 the "purity" of the JVM .... HAH! 21:39:30 jvm? 21:39:33 pfft 21:39:36 lvm 21:39:39 purity? throw away all except lambda? 21:39:40 clojure ... on jvm 21:40:03 prongla: you've come to thses conclusions after years of writing lisp code, yes? 21:40:09 stassats: S and K, dude 21:40:27 prongla: or are you just spewing BS you read somewhere with no experience of your own? 21:40:32 no Lisp on lvm 21:40:39 drewc: i worked for ita, allegro and my own 21:40:40 drewc: nonsense! he is alan kay's messenger. 21:40:41 michaelw: ok, then introduce them, and throw lambda away too 21:40:44 r00k [n=ben@216.93.247.56] has joined #lisp 21:41:03 (require 'future) 21:41:14 (require 'open-mind) 21:41:25 prongla: what did you do for Allegro? 21:41:32 (map newstuff oldstuff) 21:41:35 he's so obviously trolling... why do you feed it? 21:41:42 michaelw: before I knew anything at all about implementing stuff, I "implemented" a mini lisp in combinators 21:41:48 sometimes I look back at my past self with terror 21:42:21 pen and paper lisp, on a caribbean beach 21:42:32 -!- prongla [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:42:39 attila_lendvai, more rope? 21:42:40 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:42:40 Krystof: you should be ashamed 21:42:51 what's terrible about that. You're on a frigging caribbiean beach. 21:43:03 prongla: New is not always better... why do you want to throw away what is perfectly functional, well thought out, widely implemented and used by many discriminating coders? 21:43:32 concurrency yes definitely, but clojure has to do some funnies to fit on the jvm which i don't like 21:43:55 prongla [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:44:17 drewc: actually, have the ICFP judges ever said that CL is a tool for discriminating coders? 21:44:39 Krystof: obviously they don't count! 21:44:48 java my arse. 21:45:05 Maybe someone should sponsor a yearly Nextgen Lisp Implementation contest. Someday someone will come out with a new Lisp that is worth making a break from the past for and in the meantime the newbies would-be Lisp reinventors can at least compare their ideas to those of some folks who actually know a thing or two about lisp. 21:45:22 drewc: had you won, you'd have spent all of us the embarrasment! 21:45:46 H4ns: hey now .. you were there... isay you shoulder some of the blame. 21:45:49 where in this last round of tedious blog posts did I read someone whining that the only #lisp comment about newLISP was pointing and laughing? 21:46:25 saw that but remember where 21:46:25 not important, just symptomatic 21:46:31 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:47:16 *michaelw* foiled by off-line ports again, goes to bed 21:47:59 the other thing is that all of these tedious discussions always seem to be in the domain of putting together websites 21:48:19 which suggests to me that it's all you lisp web programmers that are failing, and that lisp programmers in all other domains are way ahead of the game, because we get no complaints :-) 21:48:49 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user131-29.wireless.utoronto.ca] has quit [No route to host] 21:49:20 I hope someone writes a blog entry soon, seeing daver's post on Planet Lisp day after day is nauseating. 21:50:15 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:50:30 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 21:50:32 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 21:50:51 -!- prongla [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:51:03 prongla [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:23 Krystof: what isn't funny about newLISP? 21:51:50 S11001001: not very much (: 21:52:28 Krystof: you make a good point there. 21:52:36 antifuchs: you free on Wednesday afternoon? 21:52:45 I just got recruitment spam from google, is that normal? "Hey I have no idea who you are or what you do but why don't you send me your resume!" that's really lame 21:52:49 a tedious discussion for a tedious domain 21:52:53 drewc: really? I thought I just committed a logical fallacy 21:53:01 lukego: heh, yeah, me too (: 21:53:18 *gigamonk`* feels left out. No Google spam. 21:53:23 drewc: all that tells you is that the modal web programmer is an idiot 21:53:34 isn't that the best kind of fallacy? 21:53:42 lukego: yeah, I found it ironic, too.. even google don't know where to look 21:53:48 my inference that lisp in all other domains is Teh Win is not valid :) 21:54:18 Krystof: indeed, but seeing as i provide webhosting services to lisp developers, those idiots are my bread and butter! :) 21:54:32 I mean, look at the airline industry. People start using Lisp there, and the entire industry begins to implode 21:54:43 and even there they're having difficulty putting together a simple website with lisp 21:54:45 that was banking (: 21:54:52 really, if folk are complaining that they want to use lisp for web but can't .. i should do something about it. 21:54:55 Somebody please tell me Lisp is not used on Wall Street. 21:55:00 oh, wait. there's banking in aviation, too 21:55:03 AIG Winter. 21:55:06 haha 21:55:11 lulz! 21:55:13 :D 21:55:22 speaking of which, have you guys discovered lolfed.com yet? It's superb. 21:56:01 haha 21:56:27 Krystof: that is golden! 21:56:38 "Its a TARP" 21:57:00 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 21:57:22 needs more akbar 21:57:30 Krystof: I'll be in london mostly permanently (over a 3-month period) come tuesday evening; we're going to have to look for a more permanent pad once there, though, so can't promise any Wednesdaily freeness yet 21:57:33 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:58:24 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["go Canada!"] 21:59:25 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 22:01:28 nowhere_man [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:21 vtz [n=user@router2-border.mreja.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:50 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-082-212-009-082.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [] 22:06:36 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:09:16 -!- Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:10:07 gigamonk`: well, lisp is used by traders, indirectly at least. For example, traders who use the services of Ravenpack are using the results of lisp code. 22:12:02 benny` [n=benny@i577A059C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:13:08 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:13:37 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 22:13:55 pjb: yeah. But let's keep that on the q-t okay? 22:14:30 Shht! 22:15:38 Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 22:16:14 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-242-151.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 22:16:34 'sok, ircbrowse.com is down 22:16:42 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 22:17:01 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 22:17:08 minion: tell S11001001 about logs 22:17:09 S11001001: direct your attention towards logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ ; older logs may be available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (down as of 2008/09/24) 22:17:10 but meme.b9.com is still up, proving the superiority of obscure urls for frequently used services 22:17:15 sorry, but we have new logs :-) 22:17:17 oh dear 22:17:35 meme.b9.com just redirects to ircbrowse.com for me 22:17:44 yes, but it has to be up to do so :) 22:17:52 yeah, but not *usefully* up :-) 22:18:05 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A269B4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 22:18:20 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-082-212-009-082.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 22:20:35 Is that good enough? http://web.archive.org/web/20071009181242/http://ircbrowse.com/index.html 22:21:14 -!- emarsden [n=user@mir31-3-82-234-52-44.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:22:35 -!- vtz [n=user@router2-border.mreja.net] has left #lisp 22:23:10 zenbalrog [n=johnnyc@ppp-70-248-145-235.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:42 -!- prongla [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:23:46 prongla [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:35 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:13 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A017C.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:32 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:30:05 i have nmade my own lisp. it looks like this: map (\x -> x*x) [1..10] 22:30:20 it is much better. has static typing with type inference too 22:30:35 prongla: congratulations 22:30:36 Congratulations! 22:30:41 antifuchs wins! 22:30:46 ding (: 22:30:59 disumu [n=disumu@p57A2598B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:02 prongla: where can we download it to and it out? 22:31:18 prongla: haskellian? 22:31:35 prongla: I thought you said you'd stop spamming and trolling like this? 22:32:09 out-troll the #lisp regulars? doubtful. 22:38:06 -!- H4ns [n=hans@S01060050e80178d2.gv.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:39:08 "you have much to learn about the ways of the troll; the trolls surround us, bind us" 22:39:32 "let go of your feelings, do not feed the troll" 22:42:45 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-39f1218e8992bca2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:44:34 lisp is slow since it is interpreted 22:44:53 -!- subconscious [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has left #lisp 22:47:08 is there a way to configure redshank so that it generates one slot option per line, as opposed to two per line? 22:47:31 sohail: nah it's because it's old-fashioned and years of running on slow processors makes a language slower :) 22:47:46 ruby's pretty fast 22:47:57 I just tried print "hello, world", took like no time at all 22:47:59 rswarbrick, yeah, old people are slow 22:48:09 by induction, no operation takes any time in ruby 22:48:17 wow, S11001001 is right! 22:48:31 Quick, it's time for us all to convert. 22:48:42 I'd better go and write a reddit clone. 22:50:51 -!- ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has quit ["bbl"] 22:52:18 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:53:54 *Xach* updates http://xach.com/tmp/doc.html with more progress 22:54:07 H4ns [n=hans@S01060050e801ad46.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:32 -!- prongla [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:55:49 prongla [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:02 haskell is an interesting language. I don't understand why haskellians feel the need to try and 'prove' that it's 'better' than lisp or something. 22:57:03 :( 22:57:06 it's a pity 22:57:14 reminds me of Java people, actually 22:57:18 prongla: do you like Java? 22:57:30 why trolls are trolls? 22:57:39 sykopomp: we get remarkably few haskell trolls here 22:58:11 sykopomp: try editing the redshank-defclass-skeleton, or maybe the redshank-defclass-slot skeleton, in redshank.el 22:58:26 maybe $#LISP_CODERS > $#HASKELL_CODERS ? 22:58:45 mogunus: it looks like I'll have to do that. I was browsing through the .el 22:59:03 sykopomp: only some. There're assholes everywhere. 22:59:18 dcrawford: tsk tsk. (better-than *lisp-coders* *haskell-coders*). Let's be expressive, here. 22:59:43 Xach: I'm always surprised to click on a link that's not labeled (other than in the URL) "download" and find it downloading something 23:00:09 ok 23:00:44 -!- FufieToo [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:00:55 *hefner* is frequently suprised to click on a link that's labeled "download" and find it not downloading something 23:01:03 that too :-)_ 23:01:27 oops. my smiley seems to be drooling. embarrassing typo, that 23:01:40 maybe people should just label buttons `do-something - or not' 23:03:24 button-dwim, coming to a McClim near you! 23:04:31 every button will be labeled "I'm Feeling Lucky" 23:05:46 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-179-44-117.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:06:51 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:12:00 tritchey [n=tritchey@2005hostb52.starwoodbroadband.com] has joined #lisp 23:12:03 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:12:06 -!- H4ns [n=hans@S01060050e801ad46.gv.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:17:19 -!- rswarbrick [n=rupert@cpc2-cove3-0-0-cust513.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 23:23:31 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 23:25:10 *Xach* has an idea with a genius exceeded only by its simplicity 23:26:18 *Xach* gets to hackin' 23:28:51 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483EBB6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:31:21 Has anyone worked through "Programming Languages: Applications and Interpretations" in Common Lisp? 23:32:02 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 23:32:08 *Xach* hasn't heard of that one 23:32:15 http://www.cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Books/ProgLangs/ 23:32:17 It's a scheme book 23:32:21 It's by the same guy who wrote HtDP 23:32:31 hey, I'm unable to compile the latest clisp with ffcall/fcgi support. I have the ffcall libs installed. My configure line is: ./configure --with-module=fastcgi --with-module=ffi --with-ffcall --with-libffcall-prefix=/usr/lib/ and I get configure: error: despite --with-ffcall, FFCALL was not found 23:33:30 Xach: there's a typo in http://xach.com/tmp/doc.html: (ignroe credentials) 23:33:31 egn: try clisp-list@lists.sourceforge.net ; I haven't tried to compile the latest clisps yet. 23:33:55 egn: what platform? 23:34:03 egn: did you install ffcall yourself from source? 23:34:07 fe[nl]ix: thanks 23:34:22 Xach: Linux, I got it from my pkg manager v.1.10-3 23:35:43 sbok: I had a nasty habit of working through Scheme classes in Common Lisp, but unless you already know both languages very well I'd recommend working with the material as it's written. 23:36:05 egn: in some cases there are separate versions of the libraries, one for normal use and one for "development" 23:36:18 there might be a ffcall-dev package or similar 23:36:45 sbok: especially since that book seems to cover call/cc. 23:37:22 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:37:25 Xach: looks like there is only one, I'll try compiling it myself and see 23:38:25 egn: i had good luck with compiling it myself 23:39:15 Xach: compiled, installed, but same error 23:39:32 are you on Linux? 23:39:54 mac os x 23:40:05 k 23:40:12 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A2598B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 23:41:50 chandler: Yeah, I just conceded and installed DrScheme a few moments ago. Trying to convert the scheme to common lisp probably isnt the best idea for someone who just started using common lisp a couple of weeks ago :-) 23:42:28 I just didnt feel like using common lisp (which i use in my AI course) and scheme at the same time. thought i could kill 2 birds with one stone 23:42:34 didn't feel like using scheme* 23:42:40 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-179-44-117.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:43 er 23:43:08 *sbok* can't even read his own sentences correctly 23:45:25 -!- prongla [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 23:53:26 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 23:53:52 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:54:09 isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:54:21 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["cya!"] 23:58:49 -!- booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-251.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:59:47 Xach: another typo: "Reaturns".. also `all-keys' doc starts with "Return a ...", likely should be "Returns a ..." 00:07:21 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["Night all"] 00:10:22 -!- Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:12:00 -!- lesceil [n=lesceil@gateway.penguincomputing.com] has left #lisp 00:16:22 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:17:47 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:18:57 manic12 [n=manic12@c-71-194-156-206.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:22 adeht: thanks 00:19:24 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 00:19:29 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:21:21 teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-050-198.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:28 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:23:02 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:05 -!- andrewy [i=andrewy@209.126.180.153] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:29:29 -!- fgtech [i=nemesis@gateway/shell/shellium/x-a4245c190834618e] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:31:42 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:16 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Gone"] 00:33:11 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:36:24 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:40:23 lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 00:41:00 -!- lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:41:25 lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 00:42:37 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-063-230.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:43:23 -!- lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Client Quit] 00:45:54 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-128.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:50:38 -!- jlf [n=user@209.204.171.109] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:52:45 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.62.24.240] has joined #lisp 00:53:13 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 00:56:22 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:05:48 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:12 -!- Draggor [n=weblair@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:10:49 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:13:34 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-164-83.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 01:15:38 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-164-83.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 01:16:57 echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has joined #lisp 01:20:52 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:21:33 andrewy [i=andrewy@209.126.180.153] has joined #lisp 01:31:53 jazen2 [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has joined #lisp 01:32:01 gigamonk`: if it matters, I noticed an httpd vs html character encoding mismatch with the online PCL edition (server advertizes utf-8 while text seems iso-8859-1, at least in the Format Recipes) 01:32:06 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-179-44-117.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:32:46 *Xach* needs the portable reader now 01:33:13 gigamonkey: thus eacute characters show up wrong unless someone manually selects 8859 encoding in browsers 01:34:32 I'm writing an algoritm that uses the taylor series to computer the sine of a number but the result is a really long number divided by a really long number, how can I change it to decimal? 01:34:57 clhs float 01:34:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_float.htm 01:35:09 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-f9a7e6e4dd1cb262] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:38:29 e.g., (float 355/113) => 3.141593 01:42:26 thanks 01:43:09 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5494BF71.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:49:09 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:51:28 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.255.235] has joined #lisp 01:52:17 -!- jazen [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:54:11 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:55:09 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:55:14 -!- echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:55:25 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.247.233] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:58:44 is there a way to run a lisp program from the repl with the code being in a function? 01:59:03 i mean without the code being in a function 02:01:04 you can cut and paste, but I don't see why you would really want to do that 02:01:21 -!- segv_ [n=segv@p4FC1D7F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 02:01:36 well, i'm trying to run the test cases for my functions 02:02:17 if they are short, type or cut and paste them, if they are more than one-liners put them in functions 02:02:48 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-164-83.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 02:03:07 solus: if they're all in a file, (load "that-file") 02:03:25 ...I'd look into putting them in a function... 02:03:44 (you may want to compile though if you are doing taylor series) 02:03:52 H4ns [n=hans@S0106001a706b09fb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:12 echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has joined #lisp 02:04:25 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 02:04:43 also try (coerce number 'double-float) 02:05:16 or just start with double-floats to begin with 02:05:35 122.0d4 02:05:35 alternately you could C-c C-c over the wanted sexp from a file in emacs also to have result shown at repl 02:06:47 well I'm turning this code in 02:06:48 that's a good suggestion phadthai 02:07:00 and the way the grader runs it is just "clisp file.lisp" 02:07:06 and he wants test cases printed out 02:07:16 solus: the repl equivalent is (load "file.lisp") 02:07:27 use "format" or "print" 02:07:30 well, it may not be exactly so, but close enough 02:07:42 I've got it now 02:07:46 thanks 02:07:50 (set the *load-...* verbosity vars to nil) 02:08:54 you can even put the test cases in functions and then call the function at the end of the file 02:10:45 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-164-83.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:11:52 doesn't taylor series use factorial? I feel sorry for the grader if he/she doesn't compile 02:12:19 somebody could throw a big number in there 02:12:24 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:12:30 jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:12:55 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:14:59 -!- tltstc [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 02:15:44 manic12: we were told to do this without using factorial or power functions 02:16:21 you are not allowed to write factorial or power functions? 02:16:26 and for some reason, my sine function doesn't give the right answer if the input is bigger than 7 02:17:33 typo maybe? 02:18:14 dunno 02:18:25 hopefully the grader won't take off too many points 02:18:32 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["go Canada!"] 02:19:10 the reason we can't use factorial and power functions is because this is a lesson on recursion 02:19:49 seems kinda funny since factorial is often written as a recursive function 02:20:17 aiur [n=Jan@218.72.71.57] has joined #lisp 02:20:38 it would be a lot slower if I called those functions though 02:24:44 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@2005hostb52.starwoodbroadband.com] has quit [] 02:24:50 haiwei [n=haiwei@nat/yahoo/x-7b14da597c70e964] has joined #lisp 02:26:19 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.247.31] has joined #lisp 02:41:26 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 02:41:26 02:41:26 -!- names: ccl-logbot NoorDextor xinming_ haiwei aiur kpreid fe[nl]ix amnesiac echo-area H4ns xinming jazen2 andrewy wasabi_ sellout jtoy felideon tsuru teilzeitstudent_ yangsx manic12 isomer zenbalrog manuel_ bombshelter13 O_4 benny` nowhere_man r00k daniel_ sabetts rme clog hsaliak syamajala2 bobrown`` timor Patzy solus ace4016 fihi09` adeht sondermann Jasko rdd abeaumont kami- froog____ jlouis stassats replor pchrist bpt cracki_ cmm JuanDaugherty 02:41:26 -!- names: sad0ur ia araujo lukego beach vasa-work dmiles_afk Chrononaut Balooga mcxx rread djinni` dboswell` dfox cddr plutonas sbok minion specbot Cryovat yango wlr scode pjb birdsbite scottj ltbarcly djkthx arbscht_ radu9 Philonous gigamonkey Eno_ dtulig grnman CrazyEddy emma dnm eno Aisling felipe Adamant gonzojive hugod lde lisppaste ramus` ianmcorvidae bougyman sei_ scrav eevar sely borism sohail Mr_SpOOn weirdo agemo wgl bdowning larstobi keithr 02:41:26 -!- names: retupmoca lnostdal [eDu] yahooooo carlf sykopomp envi^office schme matimago dwave mgr Haplo pchrist|univ mogunus mtd spacebat jeremiah housel Krystof mathrick thijso thedonvaughn kleppari jlf` maskd manveru pierre_thierry gzip4 rsynnott nyef brickhazel aking zbigniew rumbleca hefner authentic spiaggia lemoinem prip phadthai egn joga Soulman foom joshe boyscared billstclair emacs-dw` bob_f mqt Piranha__ fisxoj pkhuong V-ille wolfboy22 cky 02:41:26 -!- names: Paraselene_ tessier herbieB enn ahaas drewc vcgomes[away] Bucciarati kg4qxk azuk` Partyzant kmkaplan Tristam michaelw z0d xian pragma_ technik Leonidas antifuchs Zhivago mornfall hnaz Xof te syamajala_ dto maxote mr_ank quasisane gz sboyette qebab Jarvellis msingh persi jk REPLeffect tarbo Buganini dcrawford robot_jesus cods awayekos jollygood_______ Khisanth tic srcerer albino r0bby cmeme chandler delYsid jrockway cYmen mikezor bohanlon 02:41:26 -!- names: mrd- bedlam m4thrick_ eirik pdewacht ``Erik dostoyevsky ineiros dublpaws abend turbo24prg Guest26197 Adrinael mvilleneuve lucca Xach chii jamesjb patmatch guenther__ SUNWjoejaxx l_a_m bunz Fractal cipher Fade Riastradh kuhzoo johs bfein simias e271 pok faheem _3b p8m jsimonss jsnell Thas nasloc__ drforr_ fnordus 02:42:18 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.255.235] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:46:38 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-179-44-117.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:41 yCrazyEdd [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-27-220.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:54:12 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 13:11:58 ccl-logbot 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13:11:58 -!- names: ltbarcly djkthx arbscht_ radu9 gigamonkey Eno_ dtulig grnman emma dnm Aisling felipe gonzojive hugod lde lisppaste ramus` ianmcorvidae bougyman sei_ scrav eevar sely borism Mr_SpOOn weirdo agemo wgl bdowning larstobi keithr lnostdal [eDu] yahooooo carlf sykopomp schme matimago dwave mgr pchrist|univ mogunus mtd spacebat housel mathrick thijso thedonvaughn kleppari jlf` maskd manveru pierre_thierry gzip4 rsynnott nyef brickhazel aking zbigniew 13:11:58 -!- names: rumbleca hefner authentic spiaggia lemoinem prip phadthai egn joga Soulman foom joshe boyscared billstclair emacs-dw` bob_f mqt Piranha__ fisxoj pkhuong V-ille wolfboy22 cky Paraselene_ tessier herbieB enn ahaas drewc vcgomes[away] Bucciarati kg4qxk azuk` Partyzant Tristam michaelw z0d xian pragma_ technik Leonidas antifuchs Zhivago mornfall hnaz Xof te syamajala_ dto maxote mr_ank quasisane gz sboyette qebab Jarvellis persi jk Buganini dcrawford 13:11:58 -!- names: robot_jesus cods jollygood_______ tic srcerer albino r0bby cmeme chandler delYsid jrockway cYmen bohanlon mrd- bedlam m4thrick_ eirik pdewacht ``Erik dostoyevsky ineiros dublpaws abend turbo24prg Guest26197 Adrinael mvilleneuve lucca Xach chii jamesjb patmatch guenther__ SUNWjoejaxx l_a_m bunz Fractal cipher Fade Riastradh kuhzoo johs bfein simias e271 pok faheem _3b p8m jsimonss jsnell Thas nasloc__ drforr_ fnordus 13:12:20 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:13:24 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:15:16 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 13:15:16 13:15:16 -!- names: ccl-logbot dlowe papermachine matley antgreen kreuter mikezor_ dmiles_afk H4ns subconscious stassats bombshelter13 timor jmbr kmkaplan umis rottcodd ia sellout name cemerick tarbo trebor_win envi^home rindolf qsun tcr ehu _zenon_ inetic eno__ myrkraverk Bzek_ sabetts jdz sonderma` Yuuhi jao _YKY_ BrianRice grc jeremiah attila_lendvai kij envi^office reaver__ abeaumont splittist retupmoca eevar2 mulligan VityokOrgUa kiuma pjb REPLeffect lukego_ 13:15:16 -!- names: anekos msingh Khisanth Tordek Draggor xinming slyrus thom__ S11001001 CrazyEddy kpreid jazen2 andrewy teilzeitstudent_ manic12 isomer zenbalrog benny` nowhere_man r00k daniel clog hsaliak syamajala2 bobrown`` Patzy solus fihi09` rdd froog____ jlouis replor pchrist bpt cracki_ cmm JuanDaugherty sad0ur araujo beach vasa-work Chrononaut Balooga mcxx rread djinni` dboswell` dfox plutonas sbok minion specbot Cryovat yango wlr scode birdsbite scottj 13:15:16 -!- names: ltbarcly djkthx arbscht_ radu9 gigamonkey Eno_ dtulig grnman emma dnm Aisling felipe gonzojive hugod lde lisppaste ramus` ianmcorvidae bougyman sei_ scrav eevar sely borism Mr_SpOOn weirdo agemo wgl bdowning larstobi keithr lnostdal [eDu] yahooooo carlf sykopomp schme matimago dwave mgr pchrist|univ mogunus mtd spacebat housel mathrick thijso thedonvaughn kleppari jlf` maskd manveru pierre_thierry gzip4 rsynnott nyef brickhazel aking zbigniew 13:15:16 -!- names: rumbleca hefner authentic spiaggia lemoinem prip phadthai egn joga Soulman foom joshe boyscared billstclair emacs-dw` bob_f mqt Piranha__ fisxoj pkhuong V-ille wolfboy22 cky Paraselene_ tessier herbieB enn ahaas drewc vcgomes[away] Bucciarati kg4qxk azuk` Partyzant Tristam michaelw z0d xian pragma_ technik Leonidas antifuchs Zhivago mornfall hnaz Xof te syamajala_ dto maxote mr_ank quasisane gz sboyette qebab Jarvellis persi jk Buganini dcrawford 13:15:16 -!- names: robot_jesus cods jollygood_______ tic srcerer albino r0bby cmeme chandler delYsid jrockway cYmen bohanlon mrd- bedlam m4thrick_ eirik pdewacht ``Erik dostoyevsky ineiros dublpaws abend turbo24prg fnordus drforr_ nasloc__ Thas jsnell jsimonss p8m _3b faheem pok e271 simias bfein johs kuhzoo Riastradh Fade cipher Fractal bunz l_a_m SUNWjoejaxx guenther__ patmatch jamesjb chii Xach Guest26197 Adrinael mvilleneuve lucca 13:15:26 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 13:15:50 aiur [n=Jan@125.120.43.218] has joined #lisp 13:16:00 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:16:13 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:18:00 Was someone recently working on a CL-based portable/configurable reader? 13:18:13 I know about pjb's, but I seem to remember someone else discussing it recently. 13:18:25 spiaggia was considering it, I think. 13:18:31 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:42 I worked on SBCL's reader 13:18:51 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-89-9.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:07 What exactly do you need? 13:20:32 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:20:50 kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 13:21:34 -!- sonderma` [n=user@146-201-dsl.kielnet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:21:56 tcr: just fiddling with extracting dependency information from .asd files without really loading them. 13:22:07 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:22:09 asdf's unconstrained flexibility reminds me of why it's difficult to compile python! 13:23:25 Where does a customized reader come in? :) 13:23:41 tcr: i'd like to capture #+ information too 13:23:47 and #-. 13:24:10 You can do that with a customized readtable 13:24:25 clhs #-. 13:24:26 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for #-.. 13:24:34 tcr: i use sbcl, and the file has #+acl ext:foo in it 13:25:03 there are perhaps other ways to work around the problem, but a generic reader might help too. 13:25:03 Xach: the sicl project has a portable read 13:25:43 -!- scrav [n=scrav@c83-253-152-105.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:26:13 Xach: I think it may suffice to be able to get at character attributes, which should be available on all implementations, though not provided by the ANSI standard. 13:27:07 OTOH, you'd end up writing a half assed implementation of the reader algorithm, so yeah a generic reader is probably the better way to go 13:27:31 Xach: once you get past the #+, what are you going to do with EXT:FOO? clearly not READing it, I guess? 13:27:57 michaelw: i actually think it will not come into play as far as system-level :depends-on goes 13:28:11 michaelw: so it's more to just be able to read a file without errors like that 13:28:28 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:47 You can do that with *read-suppress* being t, Xach. 13:29:39 tcr: that'll give you a bag of NILs, though 13:30:56 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 13:31:57 that might not be an issue, though. thanks tcr! 13:34:14 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:19 *Xach* is trying to generate static dependency information from all asd files contained in every asdf-installable piece of software on cliki 13:34:38 *Xach* has 400-ish unpacked tarballs waiting to be analyzed 13:34:59 Will there be pretty pictures? 13:35:19 /me can imagine the graphs aleady, but will they be pretty? 13:35:20 ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 13:35:29 it's sorta a pity that asdf doesn't use a custom readtable for loading .asd files. 13:35:40 but it's too late now. 13:35:43 probably not. i suspect the majority of systems don't have any dependencies. 13:35:54 yeah, there are already 12 asdf users. 13:36:09 at least! 13:36:18 -!- r00k [n=ben@216.93.247.56] has left #lisp 13:37:05 *Xach* doesn't think it would be too difficult to get people to use a sane asdf replacement 13:37:16 the hard part is producing one. 13:37:18 tritchey [n=tritchey@2005hostb52.starwoodbroadband.com] has joined #lisp 13:37:35 anyway, all I meant is that asdf has a feature for checking features at runtime 13:37:41 erm, for checking *features* 13:37:49 I thought that was already part of asdf. 13:37:55 it is. 13:37:57 and so #+/#- isn't necessary. 13:38:11 kreuter: the semantics are subtly different, no? 13:38:25 kreuter: oh, sorry, misread that as "all I want is..." 13:38:50 AIUI, asdf's feature dependencies will cause errors if the feature is (not )present, while #+/#- are often used to cause inclusion/exclusion of some components 13:39:05 antifuchs: you can use asdf's feature feature for that. 13:39:26 I don't think I've seen anybody do it, though (: 13:39:40 OTOH, when files are sharp-minus'd out on some Lisps, other tools that you might want to write don't work, since the Lisp won't ever see the file 13:39:47 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 13:40:00 yeah, like asdf-packaging-tools 13:40:03 right 13:41:03 I guess it'd be feasible to have asdf use a custom readtable that signals warnings when it spots #+/#- 13:41:56 I really must write up that asdf2 meeting thing 13:42:03 -!- sei_ [n=sei@213.234.19.151] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:42:06 we discussed something like this (: 13:42:09 ok 13:42:47 in fact, something even more radical (: 13:42:57 *kreuter* fears. 13:43:06 no worries (: 13:43:44 antifuchs: "no worries" as in "it won't happen anyway"? 13:43:53 as in "it's not horrible 13:43:54 " 13:44:00 grrrr (: 13:44:02 -!- qsun [n=user@d58-106-209-188.bla3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:44:09 I think I've come around to thinking that defsystems are basically an unwinnable battle. 13:44:20 qsun [n=user@d58-106-209-188.bla3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:44:22 my position was that it would be better to not eval code in system defn files, to make it easier to do automated processing of these definitions. 13:45:03 that way, you have to do a bit of parsing/destructuring, but you can more easily write tools to manipulate them safely. 13:46:26 -!- timor [n=sun@w0171.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:47:04 qsun` [n=user@d58-106-209-188.bla3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:48:01 ddk50 [n=ddk50@p1033-ipbf4608marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:48:19 billstclai [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:49:08 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:49:17 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:49:23 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 13:50:26 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:59 disumu [n=disumu@p57A24CAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:13 antifuchs: will asdf2 be just about defsystems, or will it include another (os-level) package management system? 13:52:26 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 13:52:37 -!- qsun` [n=user@d58-106-209-188.bla3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:52:42 I have no idea yet. ideally, it will integrate in os-level package management systems nicely (whatever that means) 13:53:01 *Xach* hopes a new name is found eventually 13:53:15 xcvb! 13:53:16 clornuklappacopia? 13:53:16 I used up POIU already, sorry 13:53:22 call it aoeu 13:53:47 subconscious: nice 13:53:49 dvorak! 13:53:53 metsysfed:defsystem (-: 13:53:58 what happened to xcvb anyway? 13:54:11 killed? 13:54:12 it's sorta unfinished 13:54:26 better than sorta started (: 13:54:34 and it's a radical departure from what people expect. 13:55:44 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:00:08 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 14:00:55 -!- gzip4 [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:01:48 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:02:43 -!- qsun [n=user@d58-106-209-188.bla3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:04:48 *rsynnott* wants more servers :P 14:04:54 oops, wrong channel.... 14:05:49 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-179-44-117.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:06:43 silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 14:11:53 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-17.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:59 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:12:20 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-17.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:25 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.194.101] has joined #lisp 14:16:32 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:17:03 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 14:21:15 Xach: my reader has hooks to prevent interning symbols in inexistant packages. For an example, have a look at: http://darcs.informatimago.com/public/lisp/common-lisp/source-text.lisp This is actually exactly what you want... 14:21:35 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-53-199.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:21:37 -!- ehu [i=91dd3448@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6d54ed376a55a650] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 14:22:57 matimago: tusen tack 14:24:03 I just managed to to load my first system using asdf (good for me :-) ), but while loading it prints out plethora of debug messages, is there a way to avoid this? the way I run it is: cat myfile.lisp | asdf --noinform --noprint 14:24:29 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:24:55 inetic: i would recommend that you do not involve the shell in your lisp programming. start the lisp, then interact with it through the repl. 14:25:02 regarding the new name of asdf2: how about "aoeu" 14:25:19 qwerty is so old-school 14:25:42 inetic: (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :my-system :verbose nil) 14:25:53 oh, somebody mentioned dvorak already 14:25:54 *Xach* hasn't tried that, but that's what the source suggests 14:26:05 or htns 14:27:01 Xach: thanks! H4ns: I am not realy sure about that repl, I am probably missing something but why would someone use it if it doesn't have anything a text editor has (undo, ...) 14:27:05 dlowe: then it had to be snth since that's the point of dvorak (the sequence of finger presses i mean) 14:27:05 -!- dtulig [n=dtulig@cpe-70-112-7-197.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:27:24 inetic: most people here use lisp within an environment that includes an editor. 14:27:32 minion: tell inetic about slime 14:27:33 inetic: please see slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime 14:27:39 *tcr* wants a string-trim-if 14:27:42 inetic: and a fancy repl also 14:27:57 jdz: aoeu 14:28:00 ! 14:28:11 sykopomp: scroll a bit back :) 14:28:12 the trouble with all these asdf-replacement names is that they're hard to backronymize. 14:28:34 xcvb has one :) 14:28:41 XCVB Compiles Very Bizarrely? 14:28:53 jdz: do you use dvorak? 14:28:54 Xach, H4ns, well I believe slime is great, but it involves learning emacs before (as I understand it). I do plan to learn it one day but currently I'm using vim (please don't flame me :-)) 14:29:04 sykopomp: but of course! 14:29:14 -!- teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-050-198.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:29:20 inetic: i'm not flaming, but rather pitying you 14:29:26 jdz: do you use Xorg? 14:29:37 inetic: there is this vim integration thing tic wrote, try that 14:29:42 sykopomp: used a while ago, now i have this Mac thing 14:29:46 inetic: Look for Limp 14:29:49 inetic: sure. but i don't think using the shell pipeline is a good idea either. 14:30:06 jdz: ah. Perhaps there is a way to do it on macs. I have a modest proposal that you might find interesting... 14:30:12 I swapped () and <> 14:30:13 :) 14:31:13 sykopomp: i don't think it will work for me. i'm using M-( and M-) mostly. thaw will be too awkward to press if i have to use right hand for shift, and left for meta 14:31:38 Xach: if someone knew only notepad or something like that, would there be a better option for him than using shell? 14:31:41 now i press meta-shift with left hand, and parens with right hand 14:31:43 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:31:47 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.194.101] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:31:55 jdz: I use paredit, haven't found any problems with that combo <_< 14:32:12 inetic: you might find cusp a bit easier than slime 14:32:14 inetic: Right now my son poops in his diapers all the time. I think the solution is to train him to use a toilet, not train him to change his own diapers. 14:32:17 sykopomp: well, i must admit i have not looked into paredit yet... 14:32:21 jdz: it also took me a while to realize why qwerty people always -have- to rebind M-x to something else :P 14:32:23 inetic: certainly. get a trial version of a commercial lisp that includes an ide 14:32:38 jdz: paredit is fantastic, but it takes a little while to learn 14:32:43 or clozure has a slightly scary IDE built in 14:32:48 (possibly only on macos) 14:32:50 coupled with Redshank, it takes slime and makes it even more aewsome 14:32:53 awesome* 14:33:13 rsynnott, Xach, H4ns: thanks 14:34:05 -!- mikezor_ is now known as mikezor 14:34:11 paredit lets you edit by structure, and redshank provides some nice utilities (swapping conditionals to their opposite), as well as skeletons to auto-generate some code (like classes, class slots) 14:34:47 but the nicest thing about redshank for me so far is probably the auto-generated asdf files. 14:35:05 it crawls folders and pulls in all the files it finds :P 14:35:46 oh, that sounds quite nice 14:35:56 must give it a go 14:36:53 -!- trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:37:47 rsynnott: the webpage for redshank has a pretty cool screencast. :) 14:37:47 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5494CD11.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:55 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-76-124-114-5.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:04 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@2005hostb52.starwoodbroadband.com] has quit [] 14:39:09 minion: tell dcrawford about redshank 14:39:09 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``redshank''. 14:39:11 minion: tell dcrawford about redshanks 14:39:11 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``redshanks''. 14:39:14 .... 14:39:21 http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/emacs/redshank/ 14:39:23 :) 14:39:24 :) 14:39:43 oh yeah, emacslisp vs cl 14:40:06 tcr: that Limp looks all right, as I sad, sooner or later I'll switch to slime, thanks as well 14:40:50 dcrawford: elisp vs cl = apples and oranges 14:41:13 i like oranges 14:41:41 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.148.90] has quit [] 14:41:46 sykopomp, I just meant that cliki and common-lisp.net weren't the best place for me to look first :) 14:44:17 man. I really have to start using LET-ify 14:45:06 hmm, there does not seem to be any video of paredit on youtube... i thought there is a video for everything there! 14:47:22 jdz: if you use redshank, you're also using paredit. 14:47:25 anyways, class time 14:47:27 toodles o/ 14:47:48 -!- robot_jesus [n=csanders@hoovers-241.hoovers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:48:19 Any ECL hacker around? 14:49:41 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:52:10 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A24CAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 14:52:28 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:52:35 cya guys, happy [hacking] weekend! 14:52:38 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 14:52:48 -!- Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@2002:c6ca:19fb:80b:f085:2dff:fec7:1dee] has left #lisp 14:54:59 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:55:31 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb8e76.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 14:58:22 Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:02:27 -!- lukego_ [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 15:04:10 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-131-6.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:07:13 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-17.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:28 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-13-59.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:11 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-17.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:08:25 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-96.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:55 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 15:16:18 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2FA17.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:21 tcr: I am currently toying with ECL. 15:18:21 FufieToo [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:19:24 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 15:23:35 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:24:39 inetic, Limp, http://mikael.jansson.be/hacking/limp 15:26:28 kmkaplan: Are you using it with Slime? 15:26:45 No. 15:27:38 Its backtrace support really needs some care. 15:27:52 For backtraces I use gdb. 15:28:09 For Lisp error? 15:28:28 In compiled code, yes. 15:29:04 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:30:04 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:30:28 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:32:13 -!- aiur [n=Jan@125.120.43.218] has quit [Client Quit] 15:32:21 -!- H4ns [n=hans@S0106001cf0d5a088.gv.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:33:31 H4ns [n=hans@S0106001cf0d5a088.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:39 -!- H4ns [n=hans@S0106001cf0d5a088.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:39:44 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:54:50 -!- splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has quit ["\o/"] 15:56:46 theomachos [n=user@i577BF8BA.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:59:54 H4ns [n=hans@S01060050e801ad46.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:02 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@230.pool85-49-171.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:01:41 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 16:03:02 dtulig [n=dtulig@wireless-128-62-156-254.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 16:04:52 hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633321.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:09:12 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 16:09:53 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:12:16 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 16:12:49 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:13:13 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633295.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:17:14 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:17:20 segv [n=segv@p4FC1DFE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:45 good evening 16:19:00 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@230.pool85-49-171.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 16:19:36 hocwp [n=user@AAmiens-154-1-92-244.w90-7.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:20:12 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:23:27 _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:24:55 -!- theomachos [n=user@i577BF8BA.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:25:39 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:26:13 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:28:16 ecl's backtrace is actually useful at higher debug levels 16:30:14 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #lisp 16:32:28 joshe: I think it's a problem specific to Ecl's swank backend 16:33:02 H4ns1 [n=hans@S01060050e801ad46.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:31 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 16:34:09 -!- H4ns [n=hans@S01060050e801ad46.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:34:12 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 16:34:15 could be, I don't remember if I was using slime when I was hacking on ecl-bootstrapped sbcl 16:34:26 schasi [n=schasi@p54A26C5D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:12 sykopomp|out [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:35:34 do you guys like hearing make-fun-of-java stories? Because I have a great one involving design patterns. 16:35:38 NO 16:35:41 :( 16:35:44 I like hearing Lisp stories. 16:35:44 okay 16:35:55 I have a lisp story. It started with java :) 16:35:58 sykopomp|out: reddit it =p 16:36:06 hefner: ew no :| 16:38:10 `nipra [n=nipra@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 16:38:42 -!- antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-76239c39efa97660] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:38:59 antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-3a6462ef066bd6ac] has joined #lisp 16:39:35 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-050-198.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:07 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 16:40:12 lukego [n=lukegorr@72.37.205.4] has joined #lisp 16:41:32 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p2180-ipbf208kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:41:41 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 stable pre-release (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:44:39 -!- arbscht_ is now known as arbscht 16:46:02 question: What do you guys do to document the effects of individual methods? Just slap some ;; underneath? 16:46:16 joshe: Do you happen to be somewhat familiar to ECL's build process? I'm standing in mid of this autoconf mess.. 16:47:47 somewhat, yea 16:48:09 sykopomp|out: Just use the docstring. 16:48:11 sykopomp|out: when i add defmethod documentation, i use a docstring. 16:48:50 joshe: I want that a TAGS file is generated (if etags is available), and the TAGS file should be installed in ECL's libdir 16:49:31 -!- dtulig [n=dtulig@wireless-128-62-156-254.public.utexas.edu] has quit [] 16:50:05 ...why did I think it couldn't take a doc string? Sorry for the stupid. I'm dripping with it today. 16:50:09 you'd probably want to edit src/c/Makefile.in 16:50:49 but keep in mind that all the C are processed by some weird dpp thing to allow them to be more lispy 16:50:55 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:09 sounds like clisp 16:51:50 yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:51:59 is the clisp C source lispy? interesting. 16:52:19 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 16:53:00 joshe: in src/Makefile.in there's already a TAGS rule, but src/Makefile.in becomes build/Makefile, doesn't it? 16:53:04 it's written in a "d" language that is preprocessed into C, as i understand it. 16:53:50 cloes [n=user@2.2.8.b.0.7.4.0.1.0.0.2.ip6.arpa] has joined #lisp 16:54:33 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 16:55:40 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p2180-ipbf208kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:56:34 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:56:55 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:57:01 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 16:57:31 yea, that wouldn't seem to be useful 16:57:55 also, etags on my system doesn't seem to support the --langmap option that's used there 16:59:51 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:00:08 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 17:00:14 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:00:53 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-13-59.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:03:08 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-85-73.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:03:38 avida [n=amani@beigetower/jaene] has joined #lisp 17:04:59 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p2180-ipbf208kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:05:07 joshe: Fwiw, I've hacked Slime's M-., so it for example works on "readtable", and it'll bring you to ecl_readtable and t_readtable. I think that's quite useful to get starting about the internals of an implementation. (M-. in the .h/.c file won't be slime's M-. anymore, of course.) 17:06:16 tcr: is arg0 of defreadtable supposed to be evaluating? 17:07:08 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@121-82-184-134.eonet.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:07:20 that's nice, I spent a fair amount of time grepping to figure out where various things were defined 17:07:31 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p2180-ipbf208kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:10:14 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p2180-ipbf208kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:12:32 dtulig [n=dtulig@cpe-70-112-7-197.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:04 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:15:14 -!- antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-3a6462ef066bd6ac] has left #lisp 17:19:08 __name__ [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 17:20:34 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A26C5D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:21:38 S11001001: It doesn't matter because the argument is checked to be a string-designator 17:22:13 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:25:12 -!- yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:25:21 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 17:25:41 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 17:26:48 -!- Bzek_ [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-31-167.kosnet.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 17:26:52 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@121-82-184-134.eonet.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:27:38 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:28:59 Hi. Did someone have some news about the common-lisp.net trac? I can't reach it. 17:29:47 H4ns1 [n=hans@S01060050e80178d2.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:52 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Yay! 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18:17:41 _3b: limits 18:18:02 <_3b> that was my guess, but might be worded more clearly 18:18:22 ok, thanks 18:18:59 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:22:36 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-20.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:22:50 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-2-151-250.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:16 <_3b> Xach: truncatedp links to continue-query instead of continue-bucket-query 18:24:26 i found it hard to resist just punting on some topics and linking to the amazon docs 18:24:29 _3b: oops, thanks 18:25:10 <_3b> and marker links to apparently non-existant #response 18:27:37 -!- H4ns [n=hans@S01060050e80178d2.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:28:58 <_3b> Xach: is it specified anywhere what the valid values are for :string-external-format, (or which lib interprets the arg if it is just passed through to an underlying lib) 18:29:51 hocwp_ [n=user@AAmiens-154-1-92-244.w90-7.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:30:13 -!- hocwp [n=user@AAmiens-154-1-92-244.w90-7.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 18:30:47 -!- hocwp_ is now known as hocwp 18:31:46 *Xach* found the http upload via post particularly hairy to describe, and didn't do a very good job 18:33:18 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:33:21 -!- syamajala_ [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:34:53 oof [n=keram@Macaw.cens.UCLA.EDU] has joined #lisp 18:35:03 <_3b> Xach: in put-file whould it be "If key is T..." instead of "If file ..."? 18:35:13 <_3b> *should it be 18:35:39 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:36:15 _3b: it should! 18:37:22 H4ns [n=hans@S01060050e801ad46.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:36 It's hard for me to step back sometimes and see documentation and interfaces outside of the context of their evolution...it helps to have someone else eyeball something and say "Why does it work like that instead of ...?" 18:39:28 "it made sense at the time" 18:39:59 I think that's the most popular API design principle 18:41:29 writing documentation helps me revisit the evolution of the interface and figure out if it all still gives the illusion of springing forth all at once, from one coherent idea 18:41:54 but then documentation evolves too... 18:42:04 *Xach* needs metadocumentation tasks to help keep him honest 18:45:17 <_3b> in acl-person, "when passed S3." -> "when passed to S3." ? 18:45:42 yep 18:47:44 tayssir [n=user@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has joined #lisp 18:50:08 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@72.8.125.9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:50:48 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-2-151-250.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:53:36 VityokOrgUa [n=user@91.193.174.4] has joined #lisp 18:54:17 <_3b> Xach: should the parameters arg to head be documented? 18:54:50 Hmm, I can't remember why I included it. 18:55:32 Oh, now I do. Yeah, I'll document it. 18:59:43 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:00 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:29 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:40 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-0cb07bdb59b1ea8e] has joined #lisp 19:01:17 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.160.192] has joined #lisp 19:01:24 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-23-46.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:47 nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:59 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:03:36 <_3b> Xach: parameters-alist suggests passing its results to authorized-url, don't see any obvious way to do so though 19:04:12 sei_ [n=sei@213.234.18.1] has joined #lisp 19:05:57 <_3b> Xach: http://www.xach.com/lisp/zs3/LICENSE is application/octet-stream, so doesn't open in browser 19:06:53 ouch. bad nginx! 19:07:16 kmkaplan_ [n=kmkaplan@2001:660:3003:8:0:0:4:68] has joined #lisp 19:08:36 _3b: how can i credit your help in the documentation? i'd feel a little weird saying "thanks to _3b of #lisp" 19:08:51 theomachos [n=user@i577BF8BA.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:09:49 tltstc [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 19:10:58 <_3b> heh, that would work, or my name is Bart Botta if you prefer that 19:11:08 deppe [n=Miranda@ua-83-227-141-10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:11:10 Xach: That's how you're credited on PCL ;) 19:11:13 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 19:11:17 -!- hocwp [n=user@AAmiens-154-1-92-244.w90-7.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:11:31 true 19:12:15 _3b: thanks for your review 19:12:29 flumpie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:13:27 <_3b> *all-users* etc. seem sort of odd as specials if they represent non-modifiable concepts (assuming that is actually the case) 19:13:38 prongla [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 19:14:14 what else would they be? 19:14:41 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.160.192] has quit [] 19:14:42 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:14:45 <_3b> keywords or something, though added implementation hassle might outweigh the oddness 19:15:11 heh. as i was implementing it, it seemed like groups might be more open-ended. 19:15:14 but it turns out there's only three. 19:16:05 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host94.190-137-189.telecom.net.ar] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:17:23 -!- avida [n=amani@beigetower/jaene] has quit [] 19:18:42 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 19:19:28 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:20:10 -!- kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:660:3003:8:0:0:4:68] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:22:56 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 19:24:29 -!- theomachos [n=user@i577BF8BA.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:26:46 -!- flumpie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:26:53 -!- zenbalrog [n=johnnyc@ppp-70-248-145-235.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit ["zenbalrog has no reason"] 19:27:26 Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:29:52 -!- FufieToo [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:31:55 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:33:01 could someone give a good example of where dynamic scope is tricky? 19:33:26 attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.132.61.222] has joined #lisp 19:33:30 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 19:35:30 prongla: have a look at the zenirc source 19:35:45 heh 19:35:51 prongla: it uses elisp's dynamic scope all over the place and as a result its really hard to read 19:37:09 so I had a function foo that was calling aref but I had the array argument and the index swapped, so I was getting a TYPE-ERROR saying 0 is not an array. In the backtrace item 0 and 1 just say there's a compile-time-type-error and the item 2 shows that function foo was called. Why doesn't aref show up anywhere? that would be helpful 19:37:18 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-89-9.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:37:43 it's inlined? 19:37:58 r4yner [n=rayner@S0106001346f4637f.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:06 would it do that automatically? 19:38:15 (sbcl) 19:38:29 sbcl has many built-in functions inlined 19:38:49 sbcl detected your error at compile-time, and replaced all your code with a simple call to error 19:39:11 it will also have told you about your error when you compiled the code, and it will also have said that compile or compile-file failed 19:39:12 it does that pretty noisily at compile time 19:39:20 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:39:22 something like "Help! This is crazy! Look at this! Something is wrong!" 19:39:27 easy to see with slime's highlighting 19:39:48 yeah, it did that, but by not showing the reference to aref you don't know where in foo the error is 19:40:49 scottj: when i compile something like that, it highlights the AREF form in particular. 19:41:02 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 19:41:11 scottj: that's why you use slime which will point you to the exact form that caused an error (you can also try and learn to read the path). 19:41:14 sabetts: I don't think that when I hacked on zenirc, I knew that it does rely on dyn scope. 19:41:32 I never understood the source code, so that proves your point (-: 19:42:07 hehe 19:42:32 nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:41 Xach: I don't think slime does that in this case. I have the aref error in function foo (no args) and I (defparameter *result* (foo)) and that's where I get the error 19:42:48 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-164-83.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:43:13 but slime's not highlighting the spot in the defun 19:43:14 -!- prongla [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:43:23 scottj: it does it at compile time 19:43:34 prongla [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 19:44:42 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:45:07 Xach: I don't understand. I load up my file, C-c C-k it, and when that error pops up (the compile-time-type-error) there's nothing highlighted showing me the aref 19:48:03 scottj: what happens if you compile the individual form? 19:49:30 no highlighting. so that's a slime feature beyond slime-fancy? 19:50:10 scottj: I don't think so. I get highlighting regardless of C-c C-k or C-c C-c 19:50:21 scottj: I'm not sure why you don't. 19:50:26 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:35 scottj: I don't know if it makes any difference, but what slime are you using? 19:51:31 <_3b> scottj: on win32 by any chance? 19:52:23 -!- H4ns [n=hans@S01060050e801ad46.gv.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:52:53 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178057241.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:53:20 _3b: yeah 19:53:44 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:53:50 <_3b> hit M-p or M-n in the lisp buffer, and see if it got highlighted somewhere else 19:53:54 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@91.193.174.4] has quit ["time to sleep"] 19:53:57 Xach: 8/14/08. 19:54:06 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@p2180-ipbf208kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:54:22 <_3b> line endings confuse slime's highlighting, though possibly that got fixed recently 19:56:57 oh actually I normally use win32 but I just remembered this is actually on linux 19:57:26 so you're saying if you have foo.lisp and all it includes is this: 19:57:31 (defun foo () (aref 1)) 19:57:33 (foo) 19:58:14 then when you eval (foo) it will highlight the aref form? 19:58:46 scottj: No, what should happen is (aref 1) gets highlighted at compile time. 19:59:18 My slime is behaving inconsistently...it was highlighting something like that a moment ago, but now it's not! 20:00:20 <_3b> the runtime error from running foo before compile finishes prevents it i think 20:00:54 _3b: still, i got both an sldb and a highlighting note. 20:01:07 <_3b> possibly depends on how you exit sldb? 20:01:37 <_3b> hmm, or maybe it is the highlighting 20:01:38 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:01:51 *Xach* can't figure it out 20:02:02 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 20:02:40 jmbr__ [n=jmbr@87.223.194.101] has joined #lisp 20:03:04 <_3b> yeah, looks like exiting sldb with q doesn't highlight, 0 does (ABORT-COMPILATION restart) 20:03:18 <_3b> using q doesn't clear existing highlights though 20:03:43 <_3b> even if correct, 0 does 20:05:12 scottj: usually, at the end of the compilation, slime receives all the warning/style warnings and can highlight them for you 20:05:45 however, you trigger an error while the file gets loaded, so that breaks things a bit. 20:06:33 C-c M-k will compile but not load the file; I believe that should always work nicely wrt highlighting compile-time messages. 20:07:18 a-s [i=root@93.112.66.178] has joined #lisp 20:08:06 _3b: `q' is throw to toplevel, abort-compilation aborts the compilation request. 20:13:46 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@148.87.66.58] has quit ["*poof*"] 20:14:45 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:15:07 pkhuong: when I C-c M-k that file I get 0 errors and 1 warning (and how do I read that warning?) 20:15:21 and the warning does highlight the aref form 20:16:29 scottj: M-p, M-n will go through all notes. if there's only one it'll jump to that one. 20:16:42 nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:42 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.194.101] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:30 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 20:18:51 H4ns [n=hans@S01060050e801ad46.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:55 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:21:39 thanks, that works 20:23:25 Another question: when I get a type error and it says "The value" and then includes a long truncated value, how am I supposed to see the rest of that error (like "is not of the type foo 20:23:29 ") 20:24:07 -!- _YKY_ [i=YKY@116.49.127.77] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:25:11 lui1 [n=luis@bl5-52-244.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:25:30 -!- lui1 is now known as luis 20:25:43 -!- prongla [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 20:26:15 scottj: Press C in the debugger 20:26:15 hi luis 20:27:41 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:27:54 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-050-198.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:29:18 -!- sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has quit [] 20:31:26 -!- r4yner [n=rayner@S0106001346f4637f.ed.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 20:32:44 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-188.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:04 -!- H4ns [n=hans@S01060050e801ad46.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:35:28 lispm [n=joswig@f054052211.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:35:50 Hey Stelian! 20:39:09 Rigdern [n=Rigdern@foxy-15.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 20:40:20 H4ns [n=hans@S01060050e801ad46.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:15 H4ns: nice presentation slides! did you end up with much new material over the boston version? 20:42:27 olejorgenb [i=bronner@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 20:45:40 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:54 I want to make a macro that defines a bunch of functions. I've made a macro that defines one. But I can't figure out how to make many (without writing dozens of declare-function calls) without using eval 20:46:16 olejorgenb: expand into a PROGN with a bunch of DEFUNS in it. 20:46:32 Xach: I tried that, and I think it didn't work 20:46:40 I probably had another error then 20:46:41 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:53 *olejorgenb* tries again 20:47:00 olejorgenb: I think you might have had another error, yeah. What did you try and what happened? (paste.lisp.org may be handy to show) 20:47:36 it's a while since I tried so I don't remember exacly 20:47:57 ok. good luck with it, and if it doesn't work this time, try pasting it so we can help figure it out. 20:48:18 will do 20:54:06 HALtheComputer [n=root@unaffiliated/halthecomputer] has joined #lisp 20:55:58 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 20:56:07 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:11 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:01:46 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:05:10 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:07 Xach: the compilere complains about undefined function strings-to-symbol. I define this is in the same file, but before my macro definitions (and usages) 21:08:24 it compiles fine if I compile this function first in slime 21:08:28 any idea? 21:08:46 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:09:14 This is the classic case for the use of EVAL-WHEN. 21:10:46 http://paste.lisp.org/display/67501 21:10:50 btw 21:10:57 I'll look it up 21:11:18 nowhere_man [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:13 You want to wrap the strings-to-symbol defun in the eval-when. See http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/the-special-operators.html 21:12:58 rme: thanks. with compile-toplevel I guess? 21:13:26 (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ...) 21:13:38 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:13:56 I need all? 21:14:23 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [] 21:14:50 olejorgenb: You most likely need at least (:compile-toplevel :execute), the :load-toplevel only if you want to use the function also at runtime. 21:15:00 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:15:09 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:17:10 ok. I don't fully understand why I need it though? Is it because macroexpansion happens before everything else? 21:17:11 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:17:17 that makes sense I guess 21:17:30 Macroexpansion time can happen at compile-time 21:17:45 at which time your function is not defined without the eval-when 21:17:56 so eval-when forces the definiton to to be evaluated before macroexpansion? 21:18:44 no, to be evaluated at compile-time 21:18:45 Understanding EVAl-WHEN requires a similiar understanding of interplay between execution context and source code as fork(2) does 21:19:16 if I put the definition in a separate file and loads it from my original, will that remove the need for eval-when? 21:19:35 yes, at compiletime, but before makroexpansion? 21:19:45 maybe I don't have the full picture 21:19:54 I guess I should read some docs 21:19:58 enlightenment 21:19:58 olejorgenb: macroexpansion time and compile time are interwoven 21:20:32 olejorgenb: Each toplevel form in your .lisp file is first read in, then macros are expanded, then the result is either compiled, or executed. 21:20:51 olejorgenb: if the compiler sees a (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (foo)) it evaluates the (foo) at compilation time 21:21:50 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:51 so functions is normally not "defined" before the macroes have been expanded? 21:23:05 (defun foo-fun (...) ...) (defmacro foo-macro (...) `(.... ,(foo-fun ...) ...)) 21:23:53 olejorgenb: the (defun foo-fun ...) toplevel form is read by the compiler, macros are expanded, and its expansion is compiled, but not evaluated in any sense (so it's not available by at compilation time) 21:24:08 ok, that makes sense 21:24:41 and since I use a function call to strings-to-symbol it need to be evaluated 21:24:47 is that right? 21:24:56 bavardage [n=bavardag@87.114.150.71.plusnet.thn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:02 string-to-symbol.. intern? 21:25:12 if I have a floating point overflow for squareroot, what can I do about it :P 21:25:25 olejorgenb: Its function definition needs to be available at compilation-time, right. 21:25:25 *** - SQRT: floating point overflow 21:25:34 bavardage: Check Clisp's impnotes 21:25:46 kk 21:25:50 good, thanks for bearing with me :) 21:25:53 clhs intern 21:25:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm 21:26:02 it uses intern, yes 21:26:29 olejorgenb: EVAL-WHEN, and the different execution times, is quite tricky. 21:27:03 so can you work around it by eg. separating the files? 21:27:23 so file1 is compiled/evaluated when file2 is loaded? 21:27:28 Yeah 21:27:35 why not just use eval-when? 21:27:44 seems kinda ugly :P 21:27:45 if you have only one such function 21:27:52 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:00 olejorgenb: It's why parallel compilation is very difficult to arrange in Common Lisp. 21:28:30 olejorgenb: Not at all. It makes it clear that you intend to use the function for computing a macro's expansion. 21:29:02 -!- silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:29:02 btw, is that a totally stupid thing I'm doing? Generating a wrapper interface with macros? 21:29:16 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:29:19 hmmmbird [n=antoine@196.211.3.106] has joined #lisp 21:29:23 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:29:56 hm.. I guess. But sputting it somthing like my-macro-service-functions.lsp whould do that too :) 21:30:00 Did you paste your code already? 21:30:07 part of it 21:30:09 (defun strings-to-symbol (&rest strings) 21:30:11 sorry 21:30:22 http://paste.lisp.org/display/67501 21:30:24 -!- hmmmbird [n=antoine@196.211.3.106] has left #lisp 21:31:14 olejorgenb: I try to keep having everything in one source file as long as possible. 21:31:15 detector basically checks if a hand is of type type (a symbol) 21:31:28 tcr: why? 21:31:43 besides personal taste 21:31:48 It makes it very easy to recompile everything, see compilation-notes highlightings 21:32:11 And I'm an ASDF dilettante. :) 21:32:34 olejorgenb: It also makes it very easy to do query-replace in Emacs. 21:33:53 olejorgenb: declare-detectors is not a good macro 21:34:06 neither is make-detector 21:35:28 olejorgenb: First, MAKE-FOO is usually a convention for ressource-allocation _functions_ 21:35:56 olejorgenb: DEFFOO, or DEFINE-FOO, is a convention for ressource definition macros (which most often implies some name registration) 21:36:09 ok, that make sense 21:36:32 I actually named declare-detectors. guess it at least should be consistent 21:36:57 olejorgenb: The kind of name frobbing that your make-detector does is frowned upon by many. It'll introduce some ressource with a name you can't grep for. 21:37:00 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl8-31-190.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:37:23 the (let ((type 21:37:24 ? 21:37:44 or the name generator you mean? 21:37:55 strings-to-symbol 21:38:13 (make-detector 'foo) will introduce a function named FOO?, but if you search for FOO? you won't ever find its definition 21:38:45 true so it might be better to simply list a bunch of macrocalls 21:38:54 olejorgenb: The use of EVAL is almost certainly a sign that you're doing something wrong 21:39:07 I though about that, but wanted the challenge of automating it 21:39:24 and used 100x time in the process :) 21:39:53 Im actually unsure why I need the eval 21:40:16 or wait.. that will happen at expansion time, right? 21:40:49 so I should put the let instide the backquote? 21:42:18 You should replace everything with something like (defun poker-hand-p (kind cards &key hand-size) (eql (detector cards :hand-size hand-size) kind)) 21:42:41 so you use (if (poker-hand-p :royal-flush cards) ...) etc 21:43:08 yes, but I wouldn't fullfill the assignment requirement 21:43:14 *then 21:43:24 Uhm 21:43:25 -!- a-s [i=root@93.112.66.178] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:34 What's the assignment about? 21:43:37 it want named functions for each hand 21:43:58 it's for a lisp course 21:45:12 (defmacro define-hand-predicate (name kind) `(defun ,name (cards &key hand-size) (poker-hand-p ,kind cards :hand-size hand-size))) 21:45:32 jao [n=user@32.Red-79-155-153.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:34 (define-hand-predicate royal-flush-p :royal-flush) 21:45:38 and so on 21:46:17 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:47:07 yes, then I wouldn't need eval, I had something like that first I think, but then I wanted to make (declare-detectors ...) and that made me use eval I think 21:47:25 anyway, I agree that make-detectors is a bad idea 21:47:33 at least in this context 21:47:52 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Yay! I'm a Llama again!"] 21:48:00 you "needed" the eval because you quoted the arguments to make-detector 21:48:28 ah.. so I could simply remove the ' from ',hand-type 21:48:39 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:48:53 -!- solus [n=user1@cpe-66-69-208-12.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:49:28 yeah, but you should also heed the other advices :) 21:50:07 hehe sure, at least I've learned more about macros this way :) 21:51:42 so writing bad code can be good (if you realise it's bad) 21:52:31 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:36 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:06:29 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:07:08 -!- luis [n=luis@bl5-52-244.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:09:17 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A059C.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:09:22 -!- cloes [n=user@2.2.8.b.0.7.4.0.1.0.0.2.ip6.arpa] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:13:50 frito [n=keith@host81-146-1-109.btremoteinternet-dsl.bt.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:21 tcr: (defreadtable a (:merge :standard)) error> unbound variable a 22:17:33 Xach: not really. it was more editorial updates, and i think it is now time to come up with something new. like "using to mop to implement persistence" and making it more technically detailed and less look like a product presentation. 22:18:22 Xach: but the trip to vancouver was great, although far too short (in on 7pm, out on 11) 22:18:43 -1s/on/at/g 22:18:44 S11001001: package problem :) 22:19:33 S11001001: Ah, well. I'll fix that. 22:19:43 attila_lendvai: unquoth the macro, string-designator 22:20:20 It's not supposed to be string-designator anymore anyway. 22:21:51 tcr: by the way, SLIME integration sounds awesome; I use reader macros from 4 separate packages now, and it bugs the crap out of me that I can't do C-c C-m (or C-c C-c for that matter) on a good portion of my code. 22:21:59 -!- __name__ [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:22:05 without tweaking the standard readtable 22:22:42 Do you know about swank:*readtable-alist*? 22:22:49 S11001001: cl-syntax-sugar has tools for that: to customize asdf and set up swank:*readtable-alist* 22:23:16 no, I had no idea 22:23:20 thanks muchly for the pointers 22:24:03 named-readtables is just to make this more automated 22:24:23 anyway, there's also that some of these, like CLSQL's [ syntax, like to arrange things so that you can't "enable" if you haven't "disabled" since the last enable, which makes file compilation failure exciting 22:24:54 I wanted to hack in with-readtable-iterator in ECL, but I've distracted by improving its swank backend first. 22:25:10 I've become 22:25:17 *pushhhh*. 22:28:02 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 22:29:33 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:30 -!- bavardage [n=bavardag@87.114.150.71.plusnet.thn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:31:32 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-76-124-114-5.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:31:32 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:33:05 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483E11C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:35:44 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:35:57 -!- frito [n=keith@host81-146-1-109.btremoteinternet-dsl.bt.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:36:36 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 22:37:55 macse [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:38:15 i ahve a lis wtuh hindley-milner type-system, anyone intersted in m,y heresy? 22:39:52 You should rather look for a hindley-milner spelling program. 22:40:11 :D 22:40:44 pay no attention to that regular troll, i wonder why he's not banned yet 22:42:40 -!- macse [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 22:43:30 it's a typing system 22:44:55 then it's rather bad 22:47:55 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:06 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-164-83.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:55:27 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-164-83.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 22:59:27 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 22:59:48 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:03:20 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:04:33 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:05:21 -!- deppe [n=Miranda@ua-83-227-141-10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:05:42 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.132.61.222] has quit ["..."] 23:08:22 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119114112.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:09:04 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:09:45 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 23:12:47 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20:30 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:24:36 rjosephw [n=joseph@c-71-227-186-106.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:34 -!- rjosephw [n=joseph@c-71-227-186-106.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:34:17 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl8-31-190.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:39:25 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 23:45:01 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-76-124-114-5.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:13 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054052211.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 23:47:18 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:48:08 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 23:49:29 *rvirding* says good night 23:49:34 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 23:49:56 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:25 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:53:18 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:54:30 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:54:56 -!- birdsbite [n=mark@75.110.164.248] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:55:59 blackwolf [n=blackwol@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:40 nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:30 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:08:49 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:14:49 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:07 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:16:25 bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:17:11 I asdf-installed postmodern, but I can't seem to load simple-date-postgres. 00:18:26 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-050-198.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:03 sykopomp: what happens when you try? 00:19:29 Don't know how to require simple-date-postgres 00:19:34 cl-postgres loads, though 00:20:39 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:20:42 what's simple-date-postgres? 00:20:42 nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:53 my postmodern has simple-date.asd 00:21:01 hm 00:21:03 let me try that 00:21:12 ah-ha... 00:21:36 teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-038-041.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:14 TomBrend [n=TomBrend@ip68-230-150-72.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:23 -!- TomBrend [n=TomBrend@ip68-230-150-72.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:24:42 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:27:56 what do i win? 00:28:56 thousand of free cons cells 00:32:24 bah. that just slows my gc. 00:32:42 There's no such thing as a free cons! 00:34:37 ok, here i am sitting in the session where the haskell guys discuss why ruby gets all the fame and why noone uses haskell, and i can mentally replace every occurence of the word 'haskell' by 'lisp' and have it make complete sense. 00:35:31 worse is better? 00:36:56 -!- jao [n=user@32.Red-79-155-153.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:36:56 mikezor: sure there is. Consing only costs `something' when you start hitting the limits of the heap/nursery. 00:37:06 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:37:47 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-050-198.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:39:08 pkhuong: I bow to your knowledge. 00:40:44 similarly, everything is free if you kill yourself before the bill arrives 00:41:12 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:42:02 hefner: NIL never had a GC ;) 00:42:31 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5494CD11.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:58:44 lurcio [n=marc@itsnotnormal.plus.com] has joined #lisp 00:58:44 i mostly wish language communities would get over their petty insecurities and e-penis size contests 00:59:16 whining on the internet about languages is not development in exactly teh same way that whining on the internet about politics is not participatory democracy 01:00:09 Passive-Aggressive Ennui: International Sport of the 21st Century 01:00:44 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:00:52 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:03:58 -!- H4ns [n=hans@S01060050e801ad46.gv.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:07:34 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-13-59.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:02 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:09:51 -!- ddk50 [n=ddk50@p1033-ipbf4608marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:11:30 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@72.37.205.4] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:11:57 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-18.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:12:09 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:12:25 grkz [n=martink@c-40c070d5.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:14:00 -!- grkz [n=martink@c-40c070d5.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 01:15:26 nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:02 -!- lurcio is now known as lurcio|away 01:20:01 echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has joined #lisp 01:23:49 tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2CEFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:13 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:26:53 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:45 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:32:04 anyone here messed around with LoL successfully? 01:35:32 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:36:07 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 01:36:09 nowhere_man [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:52 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2FA17.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:37:09 sykopomp: drewc. 01:37:50 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:38:20 pkhuong: yeah >_> 01:41:46 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:31 what's LoL 01:46:13 manic12: Lisp on Lines. 01:49:18 sounds...unique 01:51:31 manic12: could be quite handy. 01:51:42 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:01:39 why did the creators of C++ make it so hard to link to it from other languages? 02:04:14 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:16 to obligate you to write only in C++ 02:07:24 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:10:19 jamesnvc [n=james@bas1-toronto09-1279534915.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:17:43 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 02:22:16 as cultists of the Old Ones, they're contractually obligated to perpetuate the horror 02:22:57 haiwei [n=haiwei@nat/yahoo/x-73153b141d27dca2] has joined #lisp 02:34:12 H4ns [n=hans@S0106001cf0d5a088.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:05 aiur [n=Jan@125.120.43.218] has joined #lisp 02:39:07 -!- subconscious [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:42:25 -!- Kopophex [n=kopophex@dtp.dyn.cs.washington.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:43:12 more importantly, what's is there to stop even worse horrors than C++ from being enthusiastically inflicted upon us all? 02:43:58 f# 02:44:29 -!- tltstc [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 02:52:07 Oman612 [n=chatzill@c-71-60-93-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:18 yeoh [n=chatzill@32.162.48.60.kmr03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 03:06:49 yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:14:25 avida 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[n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-31-166.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:35:42 deppe [n=Miranda@ua-83-227-141-10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:36:49 kiuma [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has joined #lisp 08:37:19 hello lispers 08:37:57 -!- egn [n=egn@c-24-15-54-241.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:38:19 hello 08:46:51 -!- deppe [n=Miranda@ua-83-227-141-10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:53:25 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:56:29 -!- lurcio|away is now known as lurcio 08:59:10 -!- gzip4 [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:59:29 -!- tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2CEFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Success] 09:05:14 hi schme 09:15:11 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5494CCA3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:34 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 09:22:05 wasabi_ 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joined #lisp 11:15:06 -!- kmkaplan_ is now known as kmkaplan 11:17:14 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086202.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 11:23:30 -!- yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:24:54 attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.132.61.222] has joined #lisp 11:27:24 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 11:27:43 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0C8F.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:29:57 Paraselene__ [n=None@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 11:32:17 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:40:43 -!- pierre_thierry [n=pierre@black.delerce.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:42:02 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:35 subconscious [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:56:40 kzar pasted "crazy recursion" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67519 11:59:52 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-178-0.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:25 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:01:27 kzar: (append (list foo) bar) is (cons foo bar) 12:03:32 tcr: ah ok 12:04:56 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:23 (equal (string-last string) "I") is (eql #\I (aref string (1- (length string))) or (cl-ppcre:scan "I$" string) - also, use WHEN instread of IF when you have no 'else' case. 12:09:08 use *path* instead of path if you really want to use a special variable. that way, one will know that a variable is special and not need to first check the lexical environment for the name. 12:09:40 H4ns: OK, the path variable is the problem and the reason I pasted. It doesn't seem to work how I have done it 12:10:26 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:10:55 did you try to interpret your compiler's diagnostics? 12:11:22 maybe it's better to use char or schar on strings, instead of aref 12:11:23 it should have warned you about path not being declared in apply-rules. 12:11:46 H4ns: yea I was just typing that, problem is I don't know how to get around that 12:11:50 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@pool-71-112-124-144.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:04 stassats: i'm not sure if the aref thing is much better anyway. i'd use regular expressions for this kind of string matching. 12:12:20 kzar: defvar will help - it declares a variable as special. 12:12:27 H4ns: I can't declare it within apply-rules or it will mess up my logic but outside it's seen as undefined 12:12:32 H4ns: ah ok 12:12:38 splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has joined #lisp 12:12:46 morning 12:12:59 hi splittist 12:13:00 kzar: but i'm not sure why you don't return the path as a result value from apply-rules instead. 12:13:15 H4ns: if it's the only place when i need cl-ppcre, i'd rather use your variant 12:14:08 H4ns: When you find the goal the function doesn't know the functions that called it, so it doesn't know it's own path if that makes sense 12:14:29 kzar: doesn't make sense, no :) 12:15:32 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-0cb07bdb59b1ea8e] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:16:07 -!- jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:16:54 H4ns: Heh 12:17:43 kzar: see, the way the code is now, apply-rules sees path as being unbound. that can't work. you need to declare the variable special, outside of the defun and using defvar 12:18:07 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 12:19:15 kzar annotated #67519 with "defvar" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67519#1 12:19:32 H4ns: Yea I get the idea, trying to get it working now 12:19:48 note that i wrote "outside of the defun" 12:20:23 H4ns: I thought you meant the other (recursive) defun, 1 min I will switch stuff around 12:20:27 maybe, even before it is first used, that would improve readability 12:21:31 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-178-0.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:23:48 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-53-199.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:24:08 H4ns: Yea I think your right, I have put it right at the top, to make it clear 12:24:25 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 12:24:57 -!- grnman [n=grnman@c-76-110-165-179.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:26:21 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.164.171] has joined #lisp 12:26:52 next time you post a lisppaste with a problem, include a description of what the problem is and compiler diagnostics, if you see any. thank you. 12:27:37 H4ns: Yea I will do, it was a mistake in the first place because I was talking about it in #emacs and accidentaly pasted it for #lisp but then realised this was probably a better place to talk about it afterwards 12:28:04 H4ns: You figured out the problem before I could explain it and here we are heh 12:29:07 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-13-59.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 12:31:36 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:32:57 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2DA3A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:10 kzar: instead of and IF without and `else' part, you can use WHEN. 12:34:58 kzar: instead if (- mumble 1) you can use (1- mumble) 12:35:53 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:36 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.13.59] has joined #lisp 12:36:46 kzar: and as H4ns said, instead of comparing substrings of length 1, use compare characters. 12:37:07 besiria` [n=user@ppp083212086202.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 12:37:11 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086202.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:37:13 -!- besiria` [n=user@ppp083212086202.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:37:24 beach: cheers ok, I originaly did the substring stuff like that because I wrote most of this on the train yesterday and I forgot how to refer to a single character 12:38:06 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.13.59] has quit [Client Quit] 12:40:23 kzar: when I write recursive functions such as all-matches, I try to structure them the way I would structure a proof by induction, i.e., I take care of the special case first. (if (null match) nil (cons match (all-matches ...))) 12:42:23 kzar: oh, is the the MU puzzle from GEB-EGB? 12:44:49 beach: Yea :) I was reading it on the train and decided to solve the puzzle on my eeepc. Mostly wrote the thing, just got stuck with that recursive function 12:44:51 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:45:20 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-9-2.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 12:49:53 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:49:58 beach H4ns tcr: Ah the recursive part works now, cheers guys 12:50:13 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:52:26 shit soon as you go 9 levels deep the tree gets pretty massive 12:53:11 denatus [n=denatus@084202166205.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 12:53:44 I think it might bring my emacs down is there a way to stop it? 12:54:50 C-c C-c 12:55:28 sad0ur [i=sad0ur@ip-89-103-110-251.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:57:06 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:57:34 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:57:51 oops 12:58:42 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:59:20 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.164.171] has quit [Success] 12:59:42 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BECC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:13 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Yay! I'm a Llama again!"] 13:01:50 yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:03:38 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-082-212-009-082.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 13:04:35 nowhere_man [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:32 kzar: I assume you know that he shows a simple proof as to why the puzzle has no solution, right? 13:05:58 hi 13:06:05 hello manuel_ 13:06:11 manuel_: moin 13:06:12 how is it going beach? 13:06:15 hey h4ns 13:06:17 H4ns: rad post! 13:06:29 manuel_: not too bad. What about yourself? 13:06:30 manuel_: thanks :) 13:06:40 busy busy busy :) 13:06:53 uploading a screencast 13:07:06 H4ns: i did some super hackish implementation of xml-rpc for blogger api for bknr 13:07:11 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086202.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 13:07:23 if you need it one day. i don't have the time tor ework to integrate it correctly at the moment 13:07:26 manuel_: commit it :) 13:07:37 first i have to update ruinwesen to use the new datastore :) 13:07:52 manuel_: ok. you could just commit it to a separate file. 13:07:53 i had some funny fuckup where someone updated sbcl on the gentoo 13:08:04 but the long running ruinwesen process was using the older version, and then it tried to load the new fasls 13:08:09 and it went *PUUF* 13:08:10 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:08:18 manuel_: mhh 13:08:34 beach: Nope, not got to that part yet heh 13:08:38 H4ns: is there a reason why there is no "skip transaction" restart on loading the transaction log? 13:08:41 manuel_: why update sbcl 13:08:48 beach: I was starting to think I had either made a mistake or there was no solution 13:08:49 -!- prip [n=_prip@host142-125-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:08:53 H4ns: was not my decision, it happened automatically, i'm not root on that machine 13:08:57 it's marked as freezed now 13:09:07 frozen? 13:09:15 in gentoos packet system or so 13:09:23 i don't have a clue how that stuff works now adays :) 13:09:43 manuel_: yes. it makes no sense to skip a transaction without first rolling forward to before the failed transaction, as the failing transaction could have mutated state 13:09:52 btw if you need to record screencasts under osx, i can definitely recommend screenflow 13:10:00 h4ns "could have" 13:10:10 but often you know what you're doing when skipping transactions 13:10:52 manuel_: correct. i would recommend against a 'skip transaction' restart, but if you really want one, you can have it. 13:10:58 not very important though 13:11:06 i'll see if i can "add it form the outside" 13:11:29 i don't remember what the problem was i had, something about a generic method that suddenly was called on METACLASS NULL 13:11:41 no clue what was wrong there 13:11:50 manuel_: i think the reason i did not have a skip was that anonymous transactions could have an unbounded length in the past. as this has changed recently, skipping over them is now possible, too 13:11:58 ah rad 13:12:03 yeah i think that was the reason at the time 13:12:21 manuel_: so yes, you can have it. i will also add a 'truncate and ignore failure' restart. 13:12:39 cause that's obviously a point where you have to hand-correct things anyway 13:17:20 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:21:21 i've added the restart, will be committed later 13:21:51 rad 13:21:52 thx! 13:27:01 -!- ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has quit ["bbl"] 13:29:02 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:30:04 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:33:00 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:08 Aren't there any Lisps installed on c-l.net? 13:37:18 Am I supposed to install them on my own? 13:38:06 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:41:38 tcr: i think so. there will propably be a shared installation on the new machine that will go into operation in a few days 13:42:28 tcr: please talk to drew if you plan on deploying any long-running lisp processes there. might be that the virtual machine needs more memory 13:42:55 no I just wanted to test something in CCL which I don't have installed myself 13:43:04 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 13:43:19 tcr: isn't c-l.net 32 bits? 13:43:46 ccl already has linux-x8632 support in trunk 13:43:49 H4ns: 32bit ccl works rather well nowadays 13:43:50 yeah that's what I discovered myself 13:44:01 I'm waiting for their 1.3 release 13:44:07 tcr: you can have access to bknr.net if you want 13:45:17 it's not so important, I'll wait for S11001001 13:47:26 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:47:38 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 13:56:58 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.132.61.222] has quit ["..."] 13:58:28 dkcl [n=dan@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 14:04:15 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:04:37 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:16 schasi [n=schasi@p54A2487E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:53 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:08:03 rePuLsE [n=Markus@drsd-d9b85032.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:36 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A2487E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:19:34 urk 14:19:50 clozure cl isn't printing "Nämen" in the console correctly 14:19:55 new name for the asdf replacement? It's kinda catchy... 14:20:21 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 14:20:35 ibor [n=ibor@134.76.225.40] has joined #lisp 14:20:36 Xach: have you started it with -K utf-8 ? 14:22:03 gko [n=gko@61-224-71-164.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:02 kiuma_ [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has joined #lisp 14:24:36 stassats: thanks, that did the trick 14:25:08 -!- caliostro [n=califern@host-84-222-138-187.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [] 14:25:15 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:25:20 -!- gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 14:26:06 I'm more worried that you want to print Naemen at all... DE - Just Say Nein! 14:26:23 (oops) 14:27:21 it's the metal ümläüt 14:28:12 manuel_: well that's all right, then! 14:28:26 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:29:12 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 14:29:34 envi^laptop [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:29:37 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-082-212-009-082.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [] 14:29:50 ddk50 [n=ddk50@p1033-ipbf4608marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:31:41 hooray, zs3 loads and runs properly in sbcl, clozure cl, allegro cl, and lispworks 14:31:48 doesn't work on clisp for some reason :( 14:32:12 clisp - the gcl of cl's. 14:33:15 i think it's related to gray streams, but i'm not sure 14:36:27 *Xach* hops a clisp hacker will be so entranced by zs3 she will investigate 14:36:39 Xach: zs3? 14:46:39 *beach* should read "Reflection for the Masses" at some point. 14:47:58 dnm_: http://xach.com/lisp/zs3/ 14:49:57 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:50:09 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 14:51:42 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086202.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:54:14 Xach: Some mild suggestions: 1. Move the (c) statement to the end. 2. Clarify that the non-link libraries are already mentioned above. 14:56:33 -!- splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has left #lisp 14:56:52 splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has joined #lisp 14:57:22 *splittist* relies on focus-follows-intention and loses 14:58:33 OlliBed_ [n=OlliBed_@Mb237.m.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 14:58:39 haallllooo 14:58:53 hello OlliBed_ 14:59:00 hi 14:59:16 new here? 14:59:32 wennn iwi eine bande sucht der kann mia ja anschreiba 15:00:17 OlliBed_: English is the language of choice in this channel, though I am not sure your message is interesting enough to be translated. 15:02:00 aso 15:02:04 -!- OlliBed_ [n=OlliBed_@Mb237.m.pppool.de] has left #lisp 15:07:35 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086202.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 15:08:12 -!- dkcl [n=dan@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:11:21 beach: It's pretty pointless since it's impossible to solve but I made most of those changes and got that code working pretty well http://kzar.co.uk/blog/?p=12 . I think after all that I should have probably just carried on reading the book though heh 15:11:48 kzar: it is still an interesting programming exercise. 15:12:20 beach: Yea definately I did actually learn a few things making it to be fair 15:12:52 splittist: i think i might just split out the primary deps on one level and all other deps-of-deps on another level, uniq'd. 15:14:45 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-85-73.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:17:00 kzar: looks much better. I only see a few problems with indentation. 15:17:23 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:05 _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:19:02 -!- rePuLsE [n=Markus@drsd-d9b85032.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:20:05 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086202.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:20:16 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086202.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 15:21:51 -!- ibor [n=ibor@134.76.225.40] has left #lisp 15:22:57 _ace4016_ [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-85-73.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:23:44 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-85-73.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:23:48 -!- _ace4016_ is now known as ace4016 15:25:38 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 15:26:31 segv_ [n=segv@p4FC1E617.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:37 emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 15:31:55 LiamH [n=nobody@138.88.126.7] has joined #lisp 15:32:57 sei_ [n=sei@213.234.18.1] has joined #lisp 15:34:31 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:34:35 -!- segv [n=segv@p4FC1DFE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:34:35 -!- emma_ is now known as emma 15:34:53 emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 15:35:59 Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has joined #lisp 15:44:41 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:44:48 fihi09`` [n=user@pool-71-190-64-51.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:25 kzar: will be trying to solve the MIU system next? 15:45:30 s/will/will you/ 15:48:25 macse [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:43 defun fac (n &optional acc) 15:48:44 H4ns1 [n=hans@S01060050e801ad46.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:52 how do i make acc 1 the first time? 15:49:18 chls defun 15:49:33 Binarin [n=Binarin@83.149.9.236] has joined #lisp 15:49:40 macse: you can provide default values for optional parameters with (defun fac (n &optional (acc 1)) ...) 15:50:08 pjb: Is that later on in the book? 15:50:13 Xach: the download shortcut for zs3 gives 404. 15:50:17 kzar: yes. 15:50:31 pjb: Hmm I might do, haven't read it yet but maybe 15:50:51 kzar: So we can compare our solutions. 15:50:58 pjb: it is not yet released 15:51:25 pjb: OK :) I will have a go at it a bit later after I have read that far and post it 15:51:28 Xach: ok. I just wanted to try to compile it on clisp. 15:51:34 -!- H4ns [n=hans@S0106001cf0d5a088.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:52:08 beach: yes, "Reflection for the masses" is good reading ;-) 15:52:26 pjb: oh, ok. let me make you a tarball. 15:54:03 http://xach.com/tmp/zs3.tgz is it 15:54:25 Thanks. 15:54:29 pjb: it compiles, but does not work...you will need an AWS account to try it 15:54:57 ok. Are AWS accounts free? 15:55:17 -!- blackwolf [n=blackwol@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:56:44 pjb: no, but you pay for only what you use. if you have an amazon account and a credit card, you can test things out for a few pennies. 15:56:55 http://aws.amazon.com/ has more info 15:57:04 ok. I'll have a look. Thanks. 15:57:23 (or pfennigs) 15:58:34 -!- emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:58:49 emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 16:01:20 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit ["Smile! "] 16:01:52 -!- emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Client Quit] 16:02:10 -!- fihi09` [n=user@pool-96-224-173-159.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:02:45 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-13-59.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:55 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:55 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:06:34 gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:06:38 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:07:50 gonzojive! i got something new for you. 16:08:14 http://xach.com/tmp/zs3.tgz is it, and http://xach.com/lisp/zs3/ has the docs. still not quite released, but hopefully today. 16:08:20 <_zenon_> char-int gives the ASCII value of #\k , but how do I go back? Int -> Char ? 16:08:29 How did you all learn Lisp? 16:08:30 _zenon_: code-char 16:08:38 _zenon_: char-code and code-char 16:08:42 clhs char-int 16:08:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_char_i.htm 16:08:43 DanielRM: i read books, read source code, and wrote my own programs 16:08:50 DanielRM: at the university 16:08:51 <_zenon_> Xach, beach thnks 16:09:03 Xach: any particular books? 16:09:14 minion: tell DanielRM about PCL 16:09:17 DanielRM: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 16:09:24 DanielRM: i liked Paradigms of AI Programming, Practical Common Lisp, Keene's Object Oriented Programming in CLOS, Lisp in Small Pieces. For code I really like cl-ppcre or other libraries by Edi Weitz. 16:09:27 I know that one. :) 16:09:31 (though, that one didn't exist when I learned Lisp the first time) 16:09:34 PCL, I mean. 16:09:36 a-s [i=root@93.112.66.178] has joined #lisp 16:09:40 -!- aiur [n=Jan@218.109.72.184] has quit [Client Quit] 16:09:50 DanielRM: have you read it? 16:09:53 Xach: thanks. 16:09:57 beach: in the process of. 16:10:11 DanielRM: next is (as Xach said) PAIP, OnLisp. 16:10:14 Xach: did you change the font size, or are my eyes getting worse? 16:10:41 beach: also thanks. 16:10:44 michaelw: it hasn't changed from draft to draft. 16:10:46 minion: tell DanielRM about PAIP 16:10:46 DanielRM: direct your attention towards PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 16:11:08 beach, Xach: does it help to have a mathematical mind? I've read that it is a great language for mathematics. 16:11:08 envi^laptop [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 16:11:44 DanielRM: i don't consider myself proficient at mathematics. it helps to pay attention to detail, to read and think carefully, to understand how to isolate and test bugs, etc. 16:12:14 DanielRM: i think that helps for any programming environment, not just lisp. 16:12:20 Xach: if you do it in a Lisp environment then wouldn't the last bit come naturally? 16:12:25 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:12:26 Xach: I was just going to point that out 16:12:32 Xach: obviously if you're not using the REPL, of course... 16:12:33 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:49 Xach: but with the REPL I imagine bug isolation and testing is easier? 16:12:50 envi^laptop [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 16:13:07 DanielRM: It is not just a matter getting your code to work, but to make it elegant. 16:13:33 DanielRM: i think one of the challenging parts of isolating and testing bugs is just basic scientific process: have a hypothesis and design an experiment carefully that can give you an answer that helps you progress. don't have a test that confuses multiple issues at once, etc. 16:13:36 "elegance is not optional" were the words of Norvig and Pitman I think. 16:13:36 beach: given what I've seen of Lisp that shouldn't be hard. It looks beautiful. 16:13:49 writing bad lisp is pretty easy 16:14:09 DanielRM: True, it's easier than in most languages, but then in other languages, most people don't seem to care. 16:14:33 lisp benefits from the fact that the few people who use it generally use it by choice 16:14:36 beach: I don't see why. :S Inelegant code is bad code. 16:14:53 there are not many people who are writing lisp because it pays the bills under time pressure to ship a product 16:15:19 DanielRM: I think it has to do with experience. 16:16:00 *Xach* finds that he writes his crappiest stuff when he's in a hurry to get something done, and when he can't go back and revisit decisions because it would take too long 16:16:43 benny [n=benny@i577A0C8F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:20:05 pkhuong: Are you here? 16:20:06 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:20:33 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 16:21:46 -!- gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 16:23:00 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:23:44 tcr: yes 16:24:29 Xach: and which implementation do you use? 16:24:51 -!- ddk50 [n=ddk50@p1033-ipbf4608marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:25:03 DanielRM: primarily sbcl 16:25:29 lisp lets you write some pretty dead-awful code. You can really mash it up into a big mess. 16:25:36 Xach: can I ask why? And your thoughts on clisp? 16:26:23 DanielRM: re sbcl, it's actively developed, many of the developers are here in this channel and generally supportive, has a number of features that i find really useful (multithreading, unicode), it compiles to very fast machine code, it has good support for linux 16:26:44 it also works on my mac os x laptop pretty well 16:26:48 http://hpaste.org/10721 , my &optional (acc 1) doesnt work, why? 16:27:21 clisp is a nice implementation too. it can bootstrap from C, which is convenient. it is also actively developed and has a nice repl. i think it works in more places than sbcl. 16:27:23 pkhuong: Is there any reason why the sequence-related function do not normalize a :test foo argument to (lambda (x y) (funcall foo x y))? 16:27:34 hrmn. sbcl isn't building on OSX 10.5 /w gcc 4.2 16:27:39 the clisp documentation is pretty thorough 16:27:45 I'm sorry to bring up the same topic as yesterday (slime's debugger giving me almost no useful info), but I have a function foo that gives me a type-error saying 0 is not an array. Slime is not highlighting the error spot and the backtrace doesn't tell me anything about what form inside of foo triggered that error. Do I need to set some kind of debug flag to get useful output? 16:27:53 (PPC) 16:28:04 macse: maybe elisp has an &optional syntax that differs from cl 16:28:08 scottj: did you read what xof said about that yesterday? 16:28:21 (it's been a bit long since I have written elisp, don't remember off-hand) 16:28:29 scottj: sbcl has detected your problem at compile time and replaced code with a call to ERROR. 16:28:35 tcr: not sure 16:28:37 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 16:28:39 scottj: so at runtime the trace won't show it 16:29:08 Xach: I'm using Clisp primarily because of the REPL, although given that I'm muddling through with vim and using (load) in clisp I probably shouldn't be too picky about the REPL. 16:29:14 scottj: slime's debugger can give very useful info for non-compile-time errors in sbcl 16:29:31 DanielRM: ah. i use slime and the repl there is pretty nice. 16:29:38 Xach: I think this is a different error, since it doesn't show up when I do C-c M-k 16:29:38 DanielRM: regardless of the underlying implementation. 16:30:07 scottj: oh, hmm. so a real runtime error? in that case, i usually use C-u C-c C-c in the buffer to compile a function with high debug 16:30:18 scottj: and then when i hit "v" in the backtrace, it jumps straight to it. 16:30:30 tcr: there is a tradeoff with introducing more lambdas to let convert away 16:30:35 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:31:16 Xach, cool, now that actually gives me useful info :) 16:31:19 pkhuong: You're talking about compilation speed? 16:31:22 yes 16:31:45 scottj: yeah, that's why i added it :) 16:32:45 pkhuong: Well, this normalization could depend upon compilation-speed settings, and perhaps arglist information. 16:32:51 compilation speed when the sequence function gets inlined, mostly. 16:33:10 Right, I'm trying to see if there's a simple rule that would mostly always DTRT. 16:33:30 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:34:47 Xach: You can now also use C-u C-c C-c from within the debugger. It'll then recompile the source location behind the frame at point. 16:35:41 And you can then either restart from an earlier frame if one is available (you can customize the face of restartable frames, btw.) 16:35:58 or invoke the RETRY restart, which is provided by slime for evaluation requests 16:37:32 this way you can get more information about a particular frame if you landed unexpectedly in the debugger 16:39:53 tcr: can you think of a scenario in which the conversion would be useful for a function that's not known/inlinable? (maybe something with overly general local functions?) 16:40:34 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:42:42 pkhuong: (find char list :test #'char=) 16:43:05 pkhuong: also (sort #'string< ...) 16:43:06 tcr: that's known. 16:43:19 same for string< 16:44:21 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:44:23 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0C8F.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:45:02 What does inlinable constitute? 16:45:08 an explicit inline declaration? 16:45:45 yes. 16:45:56 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16C423.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:45:59 lispm [n=joswig@e177127144.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:48:29 I don't think I'd necessarily like to declaim a function inline to take advantage of that optimization 16:49:07 tcr: but in what other situation would it be useful? That's my question. 16:49:37 (defun my-predicate ...) ... (sort #'my-predicate ...) ? 16:49:53 how does the lambda help? 16:50:11 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@S01060050e801ad46.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:50:22 Ok, I think I assumed SBCL smarter than it is. 16:50:26 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:50:50 it won't do anything particular interesting for (lambda (a b) (f a b)) if F is not inlineable, right? 16:51:10 -!- kiuma_ [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:51:11 Not that I can think of. 16:51:42 except inline the lambda away, that is. 16:51:52 Then making it dependent on the inlinability doesn't sound too bad :) 16:53:12 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:54:17 imo, the real payoff would be to be able to do things like (sort #'< [simple-array FOO 1]) => (sort (lambda (x y) (declare (type FOO x y)) (< x y)) [...]) 16:54:36 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 16:54:42 dkcl [n=dan@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 16:54:43 H4ns [n=hans@S01060050e801ad46.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:09 It could also be (lambda (x y) (declare (dynamic-extent-closure)) ...), but I don't think SBCL got such a declaration. 16:57:35 you can declare it DX around the sort, but it save any space if the original comparator is known/inline (and thus at the toplevel). 16:59:55 wow. "I value simplicity of programming language and small number of orthogonal features. [...] I use bind" 17:00:30 the payoff of not having to allocate a &rest list is itself also pretty worthwhile 17:01:50 tcr: true. (incidentally, rest lists are a lossy non-abstraction, and someone should try and hack something else in :) 17:01:51 otoh, I mostly encounter this while using #'char= or #'string= which are already pretty specialized predicates 17:01:51 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:32 fihi09``` [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:57 Well, will you find some time to hack this in? (the :test normalization) 17:02:59 tcr: you can only avoid allocating a rest list if the callee is known or inlinable... char= probably spends a good chunk of its time in type checks, actually. 17:04:43 probably not. I have a rather daunting (but interesting) project in compilers, and I'm not certain how to make sure it fixpoints correctly (I don't think side-effecting the graph and pretending to have failed is the right way ;) 17:05:06 declaring the types for the arguments would lead to omission of type checks if the sequence arg's type is known? 17:06:29 I thought it could, when the sequence function gets inlined, but I think it does that already. 17:06:41 make your optimization a monotonous function over a lattice domain ;) 17:07:00 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-13-59.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:07:16 tcr: I just mashed two sentences together. I'm not certain how to make the lambda thingy fixpoint correctly. 17:07:24 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-13-59.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:25 or not fixpoint at all, as it is. 17:08:09 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 17:08:17 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:08:38 Oh, I thought that could be solved by some deftransform magic? 17:09:21 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-226.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:11:30 sbcl compilation is an impressive thing to watch 17:11:30 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-13-59.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:11:48 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-13-59.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:23 benny [n=benny@i577A0C8F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:12:25 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-13-59.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:13:00 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.13.59] has joined #lisp 17:13:16 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:16:19 lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-13-59.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:19 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.13.59] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:16:48 oh wait. I'm already checking that the argument is known/inline. That obv. terminates correctly. 17:17:37 -!- fihi09`` [n=user@pool-71-190-64-51.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:17:57 I just upgraded to 1.0.20. Is there a nice solution to the old fasl problem? Is there a nice way to just make it recompile everything by itself? 17:18:23 you can wrap a handler for asdf that recompiles old fasls when sbcl flames 17:18:56 to invoke the recompile-restart? 17:19:47 sykopomp: use ,force-compile-system at the slime REPL 17:20:10 you have to use the slime-asdf contrib 17:20:21 minion: tell sykopomp about asdf-binary-locations 17:20:21 sykopomp: have a look at asdf-binary-locations: asdf binary locations is an ASDF extension which organizes your FASLs based on machine type. http://www.cliki.net/asdf-binary-locations 17:21:25 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:21:32 thanks 17:22:16 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 17:25:07 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:25:11 -!- dkcl [n=dan@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 17:26:20 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-178-0.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:04 dkcl [n=dan@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 17:27:11 envi^laptop [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 17:29:52 -!- dkcl [n=dan@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:30:27 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:30:45 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 17:32:06 ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:22 Anyone going to OOPSLA this year? 17:33:34 tennessee, is it? 17:33:46 Yes, Nashville. 17:34:14 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:34:22 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:36:09 what is @ / comma-at for? 17:36:24 often used in macros, i cant find an explanation anywhere 17:36:32 Anyone know what happened to trac.common-lisp.net? 17:36:33 not in pcl, not on any google links 17:37:03 macse: that'll be in the documentation for `, backquote 17:37:12 macse: You mean ,@? That splices things together. 17:37:57 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 17:38:20 macse: It's explained in chapter 8 of PCL 17:39:05 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0C8F.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:39:29 tcr: do you want to write the patch? You can look at the lvar for the function argument, and it's either inlinable (in which case you'll get a defined-fun as the USE), or known (in which case you'll get a ref to a :GLOBAL-FUNCTION, which you can check out in the info db) 17:39:40 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.163.181] has joined #lisp 17:40:55 pkhuong: What's the entry point I should start diving into? 17:40:58 dkcl [n=dan@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 17:42:56 rotym, yes ,@ what does @ do by itslef? 17:43:12 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-44-216.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:45:16 macse: @ is a constituent character, it doesn't do anything interesting 17:45:23 clisp does not support multithreading yet? 17:45:23 tcr: (deftransform sort ...) (: 17:45:39 tomoyuki28jp: I think someone is working on it. 17:46:15 rtoym: I see. Thanks. 17:46:40 I like BREAKing to walk around the value graph in the inspector. That + M-. on the structure type makes it really easy to discover what you need to look for. 17:47:25 pkhuong: BREAKing from where? 17:47:38 _DrJ [n=user@user-0c8halu.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 17:47:52 where's the deftransform of sort to be found, M-. fails on it 17:47:53 I don't like the sbcl's socket interface, so maybe I should try CMUCL for multithreading? Any other recommendation? 17:48:10 tcr: no deftransform for sort. You want to create a new one anyway. 17:48:30 <_DrJ> i'm a lisp noob and i'm trying to get CL-SDL installed in CLISP. I've downloaded some uffi.asd ... how do I install it? 17:49:33 first thing in the deftransform body. You can define a dummy transform (deftransform sort ((seq pred) (* function)) (break "~A" pred) (give-up-ir1-transform)). 17:50:08 (you don't want to swank:inspect, because the graph will be side effected while/before you look at it) 17:51:48 tomoyuki28jp: CMUCL's thread support is Green threads. It won't run over multiple CPUs. 17:52:13 rtoym: oh, really? which one would you recommend then? 17:52:14 and global-function will let you easily convert constant symbol arguments to function lookups (which may enable more optimisations, e.g. the one you're working on) 17:52:23 pkhuong: I'll take a look at it once I finished reading this book. 17:52:38 tcr: and I once I finish all my homework. 17:52:45 tomoyuki28jp: Don't know. I never use threads for anything. I hear closure (clozure?) is pretty good. 17:52:53 b4 [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:53:10 there's nothing magic about sockets though, you can look for a library that does what you want better. 17:53:59 tomoyuki28jp: usocket is the portable socket library du jour. Perhaps it'll suffice your taste better. 17:54:43 tcr: Oh, thanks a lot for the info. I would love to check it out. 17:55:37 or use the ffi and call out to the posix lib directly (usually not very appropriate, though) 17:56:04 tcr: I read the source code of hunchentoot and some other web servers, and all of them are writing their own sockets code for each implementations, so I thought it is the only way. 17:56:11 -!- _DrJ [n=user@user-0c8halu.cable.mindspring.com] has left #lisp 17:56:58 pkhuong: Thanks, I will look into it too. 17:57:33 tomoyuki28jp: I think it's planned that hunchentoot will use usocket in future revisions. 17:57:53 tcr: oh, glad to hear that. good info. thanks. 17:58:23 tomoyuki28jp: I think you can ask H4ns for a hunchentoot branch which uses usocket already. 17:58:54 tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2E944.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:55 tcr: Oh there is one? cool. 17:59:47 tcr: By the way, is there a cl implementations which supports continuations? 18:00:20 continuation is a scheme thing 18:00:48 tomoyuki28jp: There are several libraries which provide what I think are called delimited continuations 18:00:58 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-50-169.man.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:06 (sort of provide them for CL, anyway) 18:01:25 I know PG's implementations and the one part of weblocks. 18:01:42 Paul Graham has something for CL continuations in his book On Lisp. 18:01:44 Ah. 18:02:01 rtoym: Are SBCL's threads also green? 18:02:12 Both of them are not the *real* continuations though. 18:02:13 -!- macse [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 18:02:17 V-ille: I don't think so. 18:02:18 Isn't there / didn't there used to be an implementation of continuations in UCW? 18:02:29 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Yay! I'm a Llama again!"] 18:02:31 nyef: yeah, via an interpreter. 18:02:33 No, SBCL threads are native. 18:02:52 tomoyuki28jp: what do you want full continuations for? 18:02:54 pkhuong: Thought that was the new way, and the old way was a code walker of some sort? 18:03:07 yeah, that's lossy in a couple ways. 18:04:02 obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has joined #lisp 18:04:05 tcr: I think continuations is great idea. With that idea we can do many things like. For now, I am thinking to create a web framework with continuations. 18:04:21 Like what RIFE does on the Java side? 18:04:32 continuations are the h-bomb of control structures. 18:04:35 whoa, nobody thought of *that* before! 18:05:01 pkhuong: full continuations, anyway 18:05:08 Why Common Lisp does not support continuations?? 18:05:12 michaelw: DCs aren't far. 18:06:36 pkhuong: and one-shot DCs? 18:06:59 tomoyuki28jp: According to what I have read, continuations were considered more trouble than gain during the standardization of CL. 18:07:02 tomoyuki28jp: It doesn't have cwcc, you can still write in CPS though 18:07:10 michaelw: now you're talking;) 18:07:17 tomoyuki28jp: and you can view evaluation via continuations 18:07:32 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:08:09 subconscious: CPS, yes... 18:09:11 CPS? 18:09:28 "continuation-passing style" 18:09:29 Continuation-Passing Style. 18:10:08 (It took me far too long to figure out what CPS was when I first encountered it.) 18:11:24 also, CL was meant to bring together what mostly existed already. Continuations were a relatively obscure, hard to implement feature back then (and, i believe, absent from maclisp and zetalisp) 18:11:57 Yeah, I don't remember seeing them in TI ZetaLisp. 18:12:22 I do recall them mentioning using stack groups for coroutines, though. 18:12:53 the Scheme people just had better marketing, then :) 18:13:10 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-44-216.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:14:11 Who's going to have better marketing: A company selling high-priced computers, or a few faculty members at a university teaching an introductory programming course? 18:14:12 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:14:36 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 18:14:48 cmm: sure.. continuations are relatively well known, but efficiently implemented ones sure seem to be as, if not more, obscure. (Ruby and python, where you get the worst of green and OS threads) 18:14:52 if you market to people with no money, hmm, tricky 18:15:16 cmm: If you're trying to sell something that's, essentially, free? 18:15:20 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2DA3A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:15:50 pkhuong: last time I checked, the Chez design was considered the most efficient (as described in some Dybvig paper) 18:16:20 cmm: How many people you think have a faint idea of what the design looks like? 18:17:09 pkhuong: I'd imagine all those scheme-implementing crazies do 18:18:14 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:18:34 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:18:56 how much can continuations be optimized? I thought that it's only some particular cases (which may happen to be the most common ones, mind you) 18:18:58 as far as I remember, the basic idea was "spaghetti stacks with page granularity" 18:19:44 Mitch: the OFW client interface's start.s doesn't build on OSX for me, messages like 'start.s:6:Unknown pseudo-op: .type' -- something obvious? 18:19:50 tcr; If you compile via CPS, I thought that cwcc could be an O(1) operation 18:20:17 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 18:20:40 tcr: I thing Stalin optimizes some continuation-using idioms. can be done given a closed world and no constraints on compilation time 18:20:50 *think 18:20:57 I'm not sure that implementing continuations given the other features of Common Lisp is that easy 18:21:17 *sykopomp* 's code uses continuations for network i/o. They wore wonderfully. 18:21:22 s/wore/work 18:21:37 lispm: me neither. But threads bring half of the problem and then some already. 18:21:54 lispm: implementing is probably doable, properly specifying all the interations less so :) 18:22:18 lukego: the syntax in apple's assembler is different than gas on linux. You might want to look at the cpp madness in sbcl's sources. 18:22:23 lukego: ISTR similar issues with SBCL. 18:22:27 subconscious: Isn't a context switch an O(1) operation, too? 18:22:32 On the other hand, code using continuation will probably not use the other features. 18:22:35 Common Lisp does not even specify the interaction with tail call optimizations 18:22:36 pkhuong: Heh. 18:22:43 I'm not sure 18:23:04 tcr: context switch on which platform? 18:23:34 I thought context switch cost was proportional to the length of the outbound and inbound binding stacks? 18:23:36 I mean, the switch itself may be, scheduling might not.. 18:23:48 nyef: no dynamic binding in scheme. 18:24:02 dynamic-wind, though. 18:24:23 Well I was trying to make sense of subconscious's O(1) comment; if a continuation invocation entails a similiar cost as of a context switch, I'm not sure how useful the fact that it's still O(1) is supposed to be 18:24:33 tcr: yeah, pretty much. 18:24:42 O(1) is meaningless. 18:24:50 "It's not O(1), it's O(3 seconds)!" 18:25:24 nyef: so you've got a realtime design? 18:25:44 pkhuong: Realtime for a turtle, maybe. 18:25:44 pkhuong: FLUID-LET 18:26:23 lispm: that's not in r5rs, is it? 18:26:43 I would expect many implementations to have it 18:29:03 Hunh. Just found a vague recruiting email from someone at google, dated thursday. 18:29:52 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl4-32-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:31:13 Was it in SPAM? 18:31:50 perhaps I missed how lets behave in scheme but what is special about fluid-let? 18:32:04 hnaz: I think it was dynamic-scope related 18:32:09 No, but it was marked as such. I'm just getting started on cleaning out about a month and a half worth of crap from my inbox. 18:32:30 html mail? 18:32:53 Dunno, wasn't paying attention to that. 18:32:55 -!- splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has quit ["The post-BKNR presentation bull session was fun."] 18:33:24 If it's a fake, it's a good fake. 18:33:47 antifuchs: ah, that makes sense 18:33:49 I got google recruitment mail, too 18:34:37 followed promptly by the mac BU of microsoft... with that one, I know how they got my address, though (: 18:34:41 nurv101` [n=askmefor@bl5-64-152.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:35:07 nyef: I saw one of those too. 18:35:30 is now the time that we all turn and look at jsnell accusingly? (-: 18:35:51 looked nothing like the last one i got, which mentioned the google employee who recommended my by name. 18:35:57 I'm innocent 18:36:00 me* 18:36:23 heh 18:36:29 antifuchs: i still don't know for google either. 18:39:09 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 18:39:12 -!- Binarin [n=Binarin@83.149.9.236] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 18:40:33 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.148.90] has joined #lisp 18:40:33 -!- gko [n=gko@61-224-71-164.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [No route to host] 18:41:06 drewc: heh. I've gotten those where I don't actually know the Google employee in question 18:41:19 are they getting points for names or something? :-) 18:42:36 they may be getting rewards for actual hires 18:43:13 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-038-041.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:38 looks like google's recruitment monkeys said to all the programmers "give me all your friends' email addresses and I'll give you a month's bonus if we hire one of them" and then proceeded to blindly spam for resumes 18:43:56 I had forgotten how aggravating the existence of recruiters is :) 18:44:13 binarin [n=binarin@83.149.9.238] has joined #lisp 18:44:59 this sounds very similar to what social networking sites do to their new members 18:44:59 lukego: I would answer to google, but they don't do lisp, do they? 18:46:28 pjb: well it's not really "answering" when it was only a spam in the first place, it's not as if they actually know who you are and think they have a suitable job for you :) 18:47:17 mav [n=user@68.162.151.134] has joined #lisp 18:49:09 chandler: i think there's a % or something for referals. 18:49:12 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:51:44 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl4-32-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:51:49 lukego: yep, google recruiters are extremely spammy 18:53:00 pjb: I'd think google probably does lisp somewhere, Norvig is their chief-of-r&d, right? 18:53:42 no, Lisp at Google 18:53:51 Norvig is manager, no programmer 18:53:52 which is why he used to spend most of his days in python. 18:53:59 V-ille: and he has published how to transition to python more easily if you know lisp (: 18:54:46 Manager? Didn't he write PAIP? 18:54:52 long time ago 18:55:03 So I don't think he's a pure manager with no skills whatsoever. 18:55:04 looooooong time 18:55:05 -!- yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:55:32 he might be working on the 3rd edition of AIMA 18:55:49 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:55:57 I didn't say he has no skills, I said that he is not employed by Google as a developer 18:56:37 he is 'director of research' 18:56:39 Fair enough. 18:57:16 I'd think there's at least a possibility that there might be lisp developer work in the dark corners of google. 18:57:29 -!- H4ns [n=hans@S01060050e801ad46.gv.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:57:41 The probability of that is at least higher than in companies where managers don't know anything but basic. 18:57:49 ..or have heard of java. 18:58:31 if anyone unhappy about this wants to forward me the details, I can try to follow up on this internally. the whole "someone referred you, but I can't tell you who" thing doesn't sound nice 18:59:08 -!- binarin [n=binarin@83.149.9.238] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 18:59:46 wow, new sbcls load fasls terribly fast 19:00:15 Could be, but I haven't heard of any use of Lisp at Google - which does not say there is one, but AFAIK Peter Norvig is not really interested at introducing Lisp at Google 19:00:57 AFAIK Python and C++ are there the preferred WMDs 19:00:58 rsynnott: no longer suitable for use as a delay mechanism (: 19:01:23 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16C423.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:01:37 I find it understandable that he doesn't try to introduce lisp. As unfortunate it is that lisp doesn't rule the world in the popularity sense. 19:01:47 finally got around to upgrading, after being stuck on .12 for ages 19:03:25 It looks like my linux system (ubuntu 8.04) has sbcl 1.0.11, any comments on that? Should I use a different version or is that version fine? 19:03:43 it's fine, probably 19:03:47 V-ille: if you don't know, it's fine. 19:03:50 *V-ille* installs sbcl 19:04:17 though you might want to avoid your distro's mechanism for installing lisp LIBRARIES; they tend to be slightly weird 19:04:19 I've played with clisp mostly, but the thread support tilts the scale.. 19:04:42 V-ille: if you don't use slime, sbcl is painful. 19:04:50 How come? 19:04:57 I can use slime, no problem there. 19:06:48 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-082-212-009-082.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 19:11:27 sbcl doesn't have any sort of readline support 19:11:40 working at its repl directly really isn't an option 19:11:46 or not a pleasant option, rather 19:12:04 I occasionally resort to it on remote servers where opening a tunnel for slime would be tricky 19:12:08 I hardly ever work at repl of any lisp environment. 19:12:49 how well do the readline add-ins for sbcl work? 19:13:17 Is there a license incompatibility or some other reason for lack of readline in sbcl? 19:14:15 for readline, yes. but there is also the point that it's not necessary to make sbcl more complex by including readline if you have slime (-: 19:14:30 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:14:37 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 19:15:15 antifuchs: Good point. 19:15:31 pkhuong: the deftransform of FIND uses EFFECTIVE-FIND-POSITION-TEST which is a source transform 19:15:44 It does leave the emacs-incompatible people in a bleak situation.. maybe cusp helps, haven't tried it. 19:15:45 also, there's rlwrap, which is good enough for quick console hacks (: 19:16:13 pkhuong: the header comment of SOURCE-TRANSFORM-LAMBDA says that source transforms should not scrutinize their arguments 19:17:16 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 19:17:54 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:18:10 pkhuong: so I think I can't, or at least I am not supposed to, do any :test arg examination in a source transform, right? 19:18:54 -!- jmbr__ [n=jmbr@87.223.194.101] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:20:08 V-ille: cusp is fairly impressive, in fairness 19:20:23 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-19-102.kosnet.ru] has quit ["   ..."] 19:21:13 rsynnott: Oh yes, as long as it runs in eclipse, clueless people don't even notice that they program in an esoteric language. That's why I think it's intriguing. 19:21:14 V-ille: readline has a rather restrictive license, yep 19:21:16 GPL 19:21:26 oh, I think they'll notice 19:21:32 they get an inspector and a repl 19:21:50 lamfbx [n=nicolas@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:03 there's a more libre readlibe clone 19:22:04 Yes, but I mean that if people have to switch editors in addition to languages, change resistance gets very high. 19:22:15 rsynnott: you can get that for Java, too, these days 19:22:54 rsynnott: last time I looked (which is, admittedly, some time ago), cusp was rather bare-bones compared to SLIME 19:23:17 -!- nurv101` [n=askmefor@bl5-64-152.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:23:18 rsynnott: so, what are the impressive parts? 19:23:21 I was playing with it recently and was fairly impressed 19:23:31 oh, SLIME is better, no question 19:23:33 michaelw, feature parity was reached many moons ago 19:23:43 but for an Eclipse language plugin, it's probably the best I've seen 19:23:50 they tend to be... less than impressive 19:24:24 less impressive than the java one, sure (: 19:24:31 (and that one is kinda meh) (: 19:24:45 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:24:57 I found cusp nicer than the java one, though I haven't done anything serious in java in a while 19:25:17 (can you really have a slime-style inspector for java?) 19:25:45 the debugger gives you an inspector, but I'm not sure how far it will go 19:26:03 antifuchs: for java? Theoretically very far, having reflection and all 19:26:12 For lisp, no idea. 19:26:24 Jasko: does it have presentations? 19:27:15 michaelw: does slime? 19:27:19 *antifuchs* puts on his clim hacker hat 19:27:50 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:02 antifuchs: a good enough simulation for me :) 19:28:02 smug clim weenie 19:28:11 michaelw, do you mean the inspector, or something else? 19:28:40 you're too easily deceived by rectangular highlights on mouseover (-: 19:29:26 antifuchs, what's nifty about clim presentations? 19:30:34 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:31:53 dthomp [n=dat@m280f36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:54 9 19:31:55 that they're not only text-based (: 19:31:56 Jasko: objects printed to the repl are not only their (text) representation, they are live. you can manipulate them, cut&paste them, etc. 19:32:01 9AA 19:32:13 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o antifuchs 19:32:20 lamfbx: please start making sense 19:32:32 antifuchs: sorry 19:32:41 it's ok, thought you were a bot for a second 19:33:29 :) 19:33:41 vhattev [n=Viet@cpe-76-167-220-105.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:34:07 Liempt [n=Liempt@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 19:34:09 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:13 Jasko: not only do you get object identity associated with clim presentations' output records, you can associate their presentation type (the way that the lisp object is presented, if you want) with commands, and you can define views that define how the output looks 19:35:04 also, there's the input context thing: if a command arg (or any input where this is activated) should be of a certain type, these presentations are mouse-sensitive, and you can use them with a click 19:35:17 a useful thing with presentations is that you can click on them and something might happen ;-) 19:35:37 antifuchs: well, SLIME doesn't have that part either 19:35:48 that's right, presentation-to-command translators are a fun way to get to know an app (: 19:36:46 right. it gets the object identity thing right, but not much of what makes cilm presentations so much fun (-: 19:36:54 I'm giving a CLIM presentation at the next Hamburg Lisp meeting ;-) 19:37:00 (and also, a bit of a pain in the modern gui toolkit paradigm (-:) 19:37:14 lispm: good pun, if it was intended (: 19:37:25 ;-) 19:38:10 I was offering a talk on AI languages on top of Lisp or on CLIM 19:38:25 to my surprise people were interested in CLIM 19:39:27 maybe they were not interested in AI languages ;) 19:39:37 vanLiempt [n=Liempt@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 19:40:37 michaelw, I hope not! 19:41:20 rules, logic, frames, constraints, etc. ... that should be an interesting topic 19:41:21 ;-) 19:41:32 rules and constraints 19:41:46 that's not something i'm very keen on 19:42:02 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 19:42:06 I now need to get people use McCLIM 19:47:51 is lisp commonly used for generating C-code? 19:48:02 -!- vanLiempt [n=Liempt@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:48:12 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:49:45 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 19:51:16 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:51:55 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-59-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:52:08 or should i abandon this idea? 19:53:22 slash_: has been done before, but I wouldn't call it common 19:53:22 -!- Liempt [n=Liempt@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:53:25 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.163.181] has quit [] 19:53:27 prxq [n=mommer@Xdd02.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 19:54:04 Liempt [n=Liempt@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 19:54:31 ok is it a good idea to do so, or not? 19:56:01 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-59-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:25 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-164-83.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 19:57:27 The Lisp community has some Lisp compilers generating C code 19:57:39 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:40 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-164-83.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:57:57 (gcl) 19:58:03 ecl 19:58:34 but there were also other approaches like clicc or lisp-to-c 19:59:00 clicc was a compiler for some subset of CL to C applications 19:59:35 lisp-to-c was an expensive compiler that was used to generate 'readable' and 'maintainable' C code 20:00:18 schoppenhauer [n=css@p5B0BB5C7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:54 was the readable and maintainable C code readable and maintainable, then? :) 20:01:17 rsynnott: how can you make readable and maintainable C code? 20:01:20 I haven't seen it, but I guess so since it was very expensive 20:01:42 ok 20:01:44 tcr pasted "~/swank::presentation/" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67533 20:01:46 i don't know. I've used CL to generate C or asm a couple times (and now scheme) 20:01:52 pjb: I mean in the usual constraints of what is possible with C ;-) 20:01:52 now, that's unfair 20:02:07 You may find this function useful; I use it all the time. 20:02:13 *rsynnott* was a maintainance coder on a low-level C thing for a while, wasn't really all that bad 20:02:13 tcr: you can have &key arguments in deftransform lambda lists 20:02:42 actually, clicc produces somewhat readable C code, but still full of greenspunning... 20:03:24 also, you don't want a source transform, but a deftransform. Source transforms happen very early in the pipeline (and tend to create confusion by disabling other transforms) 20:03:28 binarin [n=binarin@83.149.9.225] has joined #lisp 20:04:45 jdelgado [n=jdelgado@138.Red-81-38-32.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:22 -!- jdelgado [n=jdelgado@138.Red-81-38-32.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 20:05:37 jao [n=user@32.Red-79-155-153.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:47 pjb: you have used clicc? 20:13:09 -!- mav [n=user@68.162.151.134] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:17:06 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-100-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 20:17:07 H4ns [n=hans@S01060050e801ad46.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:05 -!- jao [n=user@32.Red-79-155-153.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:19:57 pkhuong: what was that bit about not using the slime inspector? seems to work fine 20:22:25 lispm: I tried it, yes. 20:23:26 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:26:09 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:27:53 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:28:14 Rigdern [n=Rigdern@bosko-54.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 20:28:18 tcr: the inspector works fine. However, if you don't BREAK, the compilation process goes on 20:28:37 and you'll end up examining a different object graph than what your deftransform sees 20:28:38 is there a way to sort the elements of a hash table by value? 20:28:52 Rigdern: accumulate in a sequence and sort. 20:28:52 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm1.sigma230.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:28:58 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:29:16 so convert it to an associative list? 20:29:23 -!- lamfbx [n=nicolas@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:30:01 -!- segv_ [n=segv@p4FC1E617.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 20:30:46 or use a sorted dictionary. 20:30:52 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.148.90] has quit [] 20:31:27 pkhuong: It's not possible to pop up the inspector from within Common Lisp. I worked on making that happen, but I've never finished that work. 20:31:49 a dictionary? 20:33:16 facetious [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has joined #lisp 20:33:31 tcr: swank::inspect-in-emacs? 20:33:55 vanLiempt [n=Liempt@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 20:34:10 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm1.sigma230.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 20:34:22 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177127144.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 20:34:49 pkhuong: Ah, right. I was working on making CL:INSPECT pop up the slime inspector, and making it possible to have several inspectors open simultaneously :) 20:35:03 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:08 larsen_ [n=lorenzo@201.17.2.73] has joined #lisp 20:40:52 pkhuong: Ok, I think I can understand your earlier comments now. To check the infodb if a function is known, I should use (info :function :info name)? 20:41:08 yes. 20:41:18 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 20:42:23 and basically, if either inlinable, or known, the deftransform should expand to the lambda? Is there something else I have to care for? 20:42:46 nope. 20:43:13 could add the type declaration thing later on. 20:43:36 gonna do some sports now first, though. 20:43:37 *tcr* afk 20:43:49 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:39 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit ["bye"] 20:46:52 -!- Liempt [n=Liempt@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:47:20 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 20:47:30 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:32 sburson [n=gyro@c-98-234-71-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:29 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:47 -!- ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has quit ["bbl"] 20:51:30 hi all 20:52:27 hi rvirding 20:53:37 -!- tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2E944.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:53:38 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-184-254.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:35 pjb: did you try a compile on clisp? i was wrong...it does have a compilation problem 20:54:41 pjb: in usocket, i think 20:56:09 *Xach* zaps fasls, retries 20:57:05 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-184-254.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:58:24 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl5-64-152.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:58:58 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:03:09 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:11 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:04:15 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:04:23 eaumontab [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 21:04:28 -!- b4 [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:04:57 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl5-64-152.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:05:05 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:05:09 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl5-64-152.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:05:37 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:43 -!- vanLiempt [n=Liempt@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Client Quit] 21:08:54 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:11:17 timor [n=sun@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:11:53 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:00 -!- binarin [n=binarin@83.149.9.225] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 21:16:03 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:16:11 -!- Paraselene__ [n=None@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [No route to host] 21:16:54 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 21:17:46 How well does stumpWM deal with opengl in windows? 21:17:54 With xinerama? 21:19:49 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:20:21 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:21:16 Not windows, as in windows the operating system. 21:21:49 mogunus: there is #stumpwm, iirc :) 21:22:13 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:22:20 hnaz: oh! well, thanks. 21:26:18 clhs ~T 21:26:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cfa.htm 21:27:44 hm, i seem to remember that someone mentioned a way to make format print a number of spaces depending on an argument. anyone? 21:28:09 ~v@T 21:28:55 michaelw: thanks! 21:29:48 also ~vI if you're pretty-printing 21:30:26 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:30:51 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:30:56 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 21:33:38 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:58 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["leaving"] 21:42:14 H4ns1 [n=hans@S01060050e801ad46.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:31 -!- H4ns [n=hans@S01060050e801ad46.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:42:49 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 21:42:56 -!- dthomp [n=dat@m280f36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:43:25 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@abaddon.networkdump.com] has quit ["leaving"] 21:43:58 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:48:34 sely [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:23 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 21:56:14 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 21:57:40 segv [n=mb@p4FC1E617.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:07 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:59:22 hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 21:59:32 i'm feeling like an idiot with sockets. 21:59:51 i can get the clisp native sockets working, but trying to make something portable is killing me, deadly. 21:59:58 is 'usocket' the standard? 22:00:19 i tried using telnetlib but it will not compile in my sbcl. 22:01:24 bougyman: could you paste the error message ? 22:01:41 bougyman pasted "socket attempt" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67541 22:01:47 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:01:53 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 22:02:19 fe[nl]ix: no error message. 22:02:37 it actually works in sbcl command line, when I do those commands outside of a function. 22:03:47 try calling force-output after the last format 22:04:05 bougyman annotated #67541 with "sbcl cli works" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67541#1 22:04:39 fe[nl]ix: it's not that nothing's getting output, i don't think. 22:04:43 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:04:51 listen (usocket:socket-stream mpd) is never T 22:05:24 it obviously is in the sbcl version in the annotation. 22:05:27 i'm stumped. 22:05:37 zr [n=zr@blender/coder/zr] has joined #lisp 22:05:42 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:05:54 Soulman_ [n=knute@62.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:05:57 listen is always returning NIL in the function calls. 22:06:08 i have a feeling i'm missing something basic. 22:06:10 scoping? 22:06:24 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086202.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:07:20 did you defconstant your stream? 22:07:28 proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 22:07:57 bougyman annotated #67541 with "output when run" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67541#2 22:08:37 no, i did (defvar) it, though. 22:08:52 earlier in the sbcl session 22:08:59 but no, i restarted since then. 22:09:11 same behavior with nothing defined, fresh environment. 22:10:19 H4ns1 [n=hans@S01060050e801ad46.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:22 i've looked for a basic howto on sockets and other than the small examples in usocket and the (good) docs on the clisp native sockets, not a lot out there. 22:13:54 you can be the author of the really cool cross-platform lisp socket programming tutorial and faq! 22:14:05 holymoly [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 22:14:12 i'd love to. 22:14:33 i think I have to get at least one simple telnet interface working, first. 22:14:37 then i'm all over it. 22:15:12 is there not a standard, or is the standard to use the implementations' built-in sockets? 22:15:30 bougyman: usocket or iolib are two options for cross-platform compatibilty 22:15:32 i know there's nothing about sockets in the Common Lisp standard, but what's the norm? 22:15:41 H4ns1: usocket is what i'm trying now. 22:15:57 http://paste.lisp.org/display/67541#1 22:16:00 usocket also runs on windows and is slightly easier to get running with 22:16:22 brb, cig 22:16:25 iolib is more complete and has a broader scope. also, usocket is not designed for performance. 22:16:34 (for maximum performance, that is) 22:16:43 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:17:12 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:19 you did not provide a problem statement, but as a general suggestion: use setf only if you need to, and always initialize your variables when you first declare them. 22:17:20 -!- lurcio [n=marc@itsnotnormal.plus.com] has quit [] 22:17:45 also: indent your code properly. 22:18:00 your code looks more like a basic program and is hard to read. 22:19:48 fe[nl]ix annotated #67541 with "nicer code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67541#3 22:21:56 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:22:32 -!- Soulman [n=knute@62.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:22:58 asdf25 [n=jeff@pool-96-241-127-243.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:51 _v3rt [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:25:55 -!- bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:10 bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:27:02 i am trying to make cl-gd-0.5.6, and it gives me a linker error that it cannot find -liconv, i thought iconv is part of glibc now? 22:27:33 timor: remove the -liconv from the link command line in the makefile, that should fix it. 22:27:49 timor: out of curiosity, for what will you use cl-gd? 22:28:00 H4ns: drawing wave files and fourier transforms 22:28:07 timor: the makefile is not really meant to cover all cases and os versions. once you get it to link, you should have no further problems 22:28:09 ahh, that was to Xachs question 22:28:14 timor: it was xach who asked 22:28:22 yes, i mis-tabbed 22:28:24 -!- H4ns [n=hans@S01060050e801ad46.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:30 timor: he's coming up with his own shameless plug in a moment :) 22:28:37 heh 22:29:14 so the iconv functions are part of glibc and so it needs not being linked in explicitely? is that the problem? 22:29:24 timor: yes. 22:29:30 ok 22:29:31 thanks 22:29:37 *Xach* has nothing to offer but zpng and possibly vecto 22:29:49 they have the advantage of not using FFI to make images 22:30:04 in fact, for drawing, i'd not recommend cl-gd. 22:30:04 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:30:05 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm1.sigma230.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:30:10 H4ns1: why? 22:30:31 cl-gd is nice if you need to read and write images in many formats 22:30:38 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm1.sigma230.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 22:30:51 actually i just remembered that i wrote some svg macros, i should probably use that 22:30:57 H4ns1: this is for maximum debugging purposes. 22:31:04 timor: xach's tools have a better drawing api that is very similar to cl-pdf's api, so moving between the tools is easier. 22:31:14 i initially had an accumulator in read-until-done but I thought that was my problem. 22:31:31 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@138.88.126.7] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:32:09 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BECC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:32:13 bougyman: exactly what is your problem then? 22:33:21 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 22:34:09 bougyman annotated #67541 with "condensed and commented" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67541#4 22:35:26 erm, well, readability has not improved, and you still did not tell us what exactly your problem is. 22:35:29 H4ns: annotation 1 shows what's supposed to happen (send 'status', retrieve the results) 22:35:49 annotation 1 shows mpd-status running, never gets any output from mpd, accd to that output. 22:35:51 what happens instead? 22:36:01 er annotation 2 shows what happens when i call mpd-status. 22:36:12 which is nothing different from what I did on the command line in annotation 1 22:36:26 cept I added a ton of debug to make sure I wasn't missing/losing something 22:36:37 the socket, according to listen, never gets data from mpd. 22:36:45 but tcpdump shows mpd sending the requested status data. 22:36:58 bougyman: were you copying the code from a terminal ? 22:37:12 fe[nl]ix: from vim 22:37:24 oh, on annotation 1 and 2 from sbcl command line, yes. 22:37:57 notice the format in the loop of read-until-done never gets printed. 22:37:59 benny [n=benny@i577A20B7.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:38:19 is (stream) in read-until-done pass-by-value in such a way I have to do something special to pass a stream? 22:38:34 i'm so used to pass-by-reference i think I may be missing something there. 22:39:15 also, is read-until-done indented properly in annotation #4? 22:43:29 bougyman annotated #67541 with "read-until-done in sbcl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67541#5 22:43:32 anyone know a simple/portable/neat libc implementation? I mean one where the source to simple functions (strdup, etc) look 'obvious' 22:43:42 all of the individual parts work in sbcl 22:43:45 newlib ain't it 22:43:56 lukego: not tom duff's thing, then? 22:43:57 annotation #5 shows read-until-done is working 22:44:03 lukego: dietlibc perhaps 22:44:06 erh, tom lord even. 22:44:31 tom lord's one uses its own interface, right? not libc-compatible? 22:45:16 *rvirding* night everyone 22:45:20 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 22:45:27 yup, but the `simple functions' should still be there, no? 22:45:54 -!- zr [n=zr@blender/coder/zr] has left #lisp 22:45:57 lukego: there's also uclibc 22:46:06 dietlibc is close but optimized 22:46:13 hello and good night rvirding :) 22:48:09 I was thinking of just copy&paste'ing about 10 libc functions so I'd like standalone ones not using any interesting macros, etc 22:48:22 maybe I'll be sensible and link in a whole libc instead 22:49:01 -!- obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:49:05 never mind, i figured it out. 22:49:10 I _was_ being stupid. 22:49:21 it's calling (listen) faster than the mpd can respond. 22:49:23 nurv101` [n=askmefor@81.193.35.10] has joined #lisp 22:49:25 so there really is no input waiting. 22:49:26 heh. 22:49:32 -!- nurv101` [n=askmefor@81.193.35.10] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:49:48 *bougyman* looks for an until loop 22:49:54 "mpd"? 22:49:55 nurv101` [n=askmefor@81.193.35.10] has joined #lisp 22:50:09 music player daemon, it's the music system I use. 22:50:18 trying to port my ruby bindings to lisp. 22:50:32 Ah. 22:50:52 simple telnet protocol, just didn't think about timing, the ruby socket lib abstracts the waiting for input. 22:50:53 So I'm not the only one to mess around with sound player interfacing from Lisp. 22:50:58 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:08 lukego: perhaps klibc ? 22:51:31 H4ns: thanks for all the 'what-ifs' 22:51:43 so many options, it must be a lot of fun to write a libc :) 22:51:47 somewhere in there I realized on the cli where it's working i'm taking time between each step. 22:51:48 who has taken a look at arc? any rants? 22:51:56 (setf +mpd+ (usocket:socket-connect "localhost" 6600))(read-until-done (usocket:socket-stream +mpd+))(format (usocket:socket-stream +mpd+) "status~%")(force-output (usocket:socket-stream +mpd+))(read-until-done (usocket:socket-stream +mpd+)) 22:52:04 that failed just like the function was failing, though. 22:52:07 because of the timing. 22:52:25 lukego: Or maybe uclibc or the libc that NetBSD uses for second-stage bootloaders? 22:52:31 read-until-done should wait until listen is T, but with a timeout. 22:52:49 bougyman: that logic of reading until you'd have to read is pretty lossy. 22:52:55 *you'd have to wait 22:53:05 bougyman: Isn't there a syntax to the protocol that can be used for handshaking instead of relying on timing? 22:53:16 nyef: it's not about the handshake. 22:53:25 timor: I think everyone is all ranted out; it seems to have vanished, anyway 22:53:46 nyef: it seems to be what (listen) is for, according to the usocket docs, to see if there's any data to be picked up from the stream 22:53:52 -!- _v3rt [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 22:54:01 if you check the stream before the data has had time to get there, it's obviously going to be false. 22:54:10 i was taking that to mean 'there is not data' not 'the data isn't here yet' 22:54:15 just bad thinking on my part. 22:54:19 Right. 22:54:24 And that's handshaking. 22:54:31 -!- denatus [n=denatus@084202166205.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:54:41 sorry, i'm from a networking background, the TCP handshake is successful. 22:55:05 you mean the application protocol handshake. 22:55:11 Yes. 22:55:18 MPD sends {VERSION} OK 22:55:23 that's what I have to wait for. 22:55:30 And you're not looking for that OK? 22:55:50 but, more generically, i need to wait for a listen to be T before I expect _any_ data, handshake or otherwise. 22:56:13 i was looking for the OK earlier, i removed everything except the debugging and simple write and read to see where I was going wrong. 22:56:16 eventually, i found out. 22:56:29 no, you just have to read-line. 22:56:50 read-line hangs when there's nothing to be read. 22:57:11 :for line = (read-line +socket) is how I started 22:57:13 that would always hang. 22:57:23 bougyman: what do you think waiting for listen to return T does? 22:57:25 which is how I found listen, which checks to see that there's something to read. 22:57:34 pkhuong: i can control how long that hangs. 22:57:51 listen will return NIL in the case that read-line would have hung. 22:57:57 bougyman: i'd design the protocol so that it is always clear who's turn it is. 22:58:20 bougyman: so after connecting, one would read a line, send a command, read lines until the end-of-response marker is read etc. 22:58:22 H4ns: it always is clear, i don't get your point. 22:58:27 oh, yeah. 22:58:30 by using 100% cpu. Use a timeout (or low level select + sigalrm stuff) 22:58:35 bougyman: what is the point of listening then? 22:58:39 there's no defined end of response marker, i don't think. 22:58:41 mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 22:58:47 ok, yeah. 22:58:50 bougyman: bad protocol design. 22:58:56 which protocol is this? 22:58:58 it's "OK" or or some error. 22:59:16 i wasn't considering that the EOR marker, but it seems to be so. 23:00:47 thanks all, the openbsd and klibc ones seem nice to snatch bits of code from 23:01:14 ooh neat, I get to learn regex. 23:01:26 end of record is OK\n or ACK [error message here]\n 23:01:53 is there a built-in regular expression engine, i didn't see mention of it in PCL 23:01:55 SEARCH 23:01:59 bougyman: now you have two problems :D 23:02:01 you definitely don't need regexes 23:02:01 i hear people talking about cl-pcre 23:02:05 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:13 that would be simple, i know pcre already. 23:02:31 minion: tell bougyman about cl-ppcre 23:02:31 bougyman: please look at cl-ppcre: CL-PPCRE is a portable, Perl-compatible regular expression library by Edi Weitz. http://www.cliki.net/cl-ppcre 23:02:35 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:03:07 H4ns: i had just asdf-install ed it. 23:03:17 perl regexes for string search is an incredible abuse of complexity. 23:03:32 pkhuong: i agree. 23:03:42 *H4ns* does not agree at all. 23:03:51 rsynnott: i missed that phase, how was it? did everyone try it out? did people ignore it? 23:04:11 reguar expressions are a very concise way of expressing string matches. 23:04:12 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:05:06 H4ns: if there's a match to be made. 23:05:15 pkhuong: was hoping lisp had a built-in simple regular expression or other string manipulation function I could use for 'either OK\n or ACK [some error message]' equivalent to /^(OK|ACK\s\[(\w.*?)\])$/ 23:05:17 pkhuong: so? 23:05:43 bougyman: cl-ppcre does just that. if you want syntax, look at cl-interpol 23:06:36 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl5-64-152.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:06:47 You can write a regex reader macro 23:06:54 subconscious: you can use one. 23:07:01 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:07:08 I could be henry spencer, too. 23:07:19 but, in this case, i was just wondering what the norm was, in such a case. 23:07:32 google is overwhelmingly on the side of cl-ppcre 23:07:40 did I said the wrong thing? 23:08:03 -!- timor [n=sun@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:08:15 minion: tell subconscious about cl-ppcre 23:08:16 subconscious: direct your attention towards cl-ppcre: CL-PPCRE is a portable, Perl-compatible regular expression library by Edi Weitz. http://www.cliki.net/cl-ppcre 23:08:17 no, that was a regular expression joke (re: spencer) 23:08:18 oh, no 23:08:22 minion: tell subconscious about cl-interpol 23:08:22 subconscious: direct your attention towards cl-interpol: CL-INTERPOL modifies the reader so that you can have interpolation of strings similar to Perl or Unix Shell scripts. http://www.cliki.net/cl-interpol 23:08:40 timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:09:59 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:12:39 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:14:28 if all you want is to search for a constant string, SEARCH does the job. It's not like the program won't be spending 90%+ of the time in IO (unless you poll with LISTEN). 23:15:15 timor: it was mostly made fun of, I think 23:15:33 bemusingly bad, considering the hype 23:19:43 pkhuong: i'm not convinced. for example, to express /^(?i)(ok|error \w*)$/ using search and other explicit function calls, you need a lot of code which will be a lot harder to read than the regular expression. 23:19:47 -!- nurv101` [n=askmefor@81.193.35.10] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:19:55 rsynnott, in your opinion, is it worth taking a deeper look at its ideas? 23:20:24 In my opinion, no. Others may differ. 23:20:57 H4ns: depends on whether you need to capture or not. There's the irreg-sexp thing too. 23:21:42 pkhuong: you seem to just not like regular expressions, so i'll not continue this discussion :) 23:22:13 H4ns: i love regular expressions. I think they're very often used by habit when simpler alternative exists. 23:22:19 pkhuong: It seems to me that selecting SEARCH in this case is premature optimisation. 23:22:54 pkhuong: I admittedly use regex a lot when I could have used substring search... 23:22:59 (i rather dislike perl regexes, though ;) 23:23:06 :) ok.. 23:23:40 -!- facetious [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has quit ["Bye"] 23:23:50 it doesn't really matter which flavor of regex it is, i've done tcl, .net, oniguruma, and pcre, that pretty much covers em. 23:24:08 i was hoping lisp had some handy dandy original one, like spencer's in tcl. 23:24:16 i hate that language, but love his engine. 23:24:24 bougyman: lisp "has" no regular expressions. 23:24:39 H4ns: that's the conclusion I came to. 23:24:53 bougyman: direct your attention to the common lisp hyperspec to learn what lisp "has" 23:25:35 most lisp/scheme regular expression packages have less escape-ful syntaxes, though. 23:29:56 jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:19 clhs peek-char 23:33:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_peek_c.htm 23:34:11 I'm making a package of Common Lisp code that is in the public domain. I'm wondering if "public domain" meets the DFSG, or if I just shouldn't even bother submitting. 23:34:57 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 23:35:38 jao [n=user@32.Red-79-155-153.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:12 jfm3: bsd might be better. `Public domain' isn't that meaningful, especially across borders. 23:38:39 jfm3: public domain is very legally dubious in many countries 23:38:59 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:40:01 I aggre, but the code is already under that license. I'm just packaging it. I asked on #debian and that wasn't very helpful. 23:40:16 The package is cl-alexandria. 23:41:59 I wonder if I can't just relicense my release of it. 23:43:24 jfm3: might be simpler to send an email to their ML. It's not so old that the authors can't all be reached. 23:44:30 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["leaving"] 23:44:43 mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 23:49:56 jfm3: Have a closer look at its LICENSE file. 23:50:29 tcr: I have read the LICENSE file carefully yes. What are you driving at? 23:50:51 jfm3: It's licensed under BSD if PD is not applicable. 23:51:15 Or, MIT-like it is rather than BSD-like 23:51:21 tcr: Agreed, but I don't think that means I get to pick. 23:51:51 Well, probably best would be to consult #debian 23:52:21 hm I'm tempted to snag a whole libc, but dietlibc/klibc/uClibc all seem to be linux-specific. can someone suggest a portable one (perhaps skipping any functionality that's fundamentally unportable)? 23:53:29 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 23:54:52 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.27.29] has joined #lisp 23:54:57 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:57:21 lukego: a few are mentioned in this (10-years-old) thread: http://compilers.iecc.com/comparch/article/98-07-213 23:59:20 fenix: thanks, I'll check out the oskit lead 00:02:31 ah, from back when gzipped tars had OTHER extensions 00:03:22 rsynnott: TAZ isn't gzipped 00:03:24 I think I'll just submit the package and see who complains. 00:03:33 Better to seek forgiveness than to ask permission. 00:05:44 ah, Zipped, tar? 00:05:50 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:07:28 -!- H4ns [n=hans@S01060050e801ad46.gv.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:08:26 prxq_ [n=mommer@Xa4d4.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 00:09:55 rsynnott: compressed 00:09:57 rsynnott: see compress(2) 00:10:43 -!- prxq_ [n=mommer@Xa4d4.x.pppool.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:10:43 I mean compress(1) 00:15:10 -!- timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 00:15:38 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:16:49 -!- proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:17:43 etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:19 -!- cracki_ is now known as cracki 00:21:23 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:21:42 teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-061-210.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:42 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A20B7.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:24:39 -!- prxq [n=mommer@Xdd02.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:27:08 -!- etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has left #lisp 00:29:09 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-038-041.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:31:03 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:31:54 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:06 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-140-18.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:08 -!- dkcl [n=dan@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 00:35:17 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 00:36:28 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has left #lisp 00:36:48 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 00:46:48 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:46:53 NNshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-226.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:47:34 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5494CCA3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:47:57 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-226.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:50:09 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 00:57:20 echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has joined #lisp 01:07:43 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-178-0.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:07:53 -!- eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:10:19 -!- asdf25 [n=jeff@pool-96-241-127-243.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:14:15 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:33 -!- jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:19:42 haiwei [n=haiwei@nat/yahoo/x-db77224df9423a91] has joined #lisp 01:22:54 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-188-161-219.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:14 AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:27:24 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 01:29:46 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 01:32:44 -!- NNshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-226.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:33:31 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:27 how do I capture something that returns two values? 01:34:36 http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/#scan-to-strings 01:34:45 Use MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND and friends. 01:34:48 clhs multiple-value-bind 01:34:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_multip.htm 01:34:59 with (setf +list+ (scan-to-strings ..)) 01:35:02 oh, not setf. 01:35:12 certainly not (setf +list+ ...) 01:36:12 the PCL made it seem like you could always use setf for assignment 01:37:07 but +foo+ is how constants are usually denoted. 01:37:27 oh. 01:37:53 i thought *foo* was. 01:38:48 with setf, you'd use (setf (values ...) (scan-to-strings ...)), but if you can bind instead of assigning, that usually results in clearer code. 01:39:06 agreed. 01:39:17 but block mode isn't so good for line by line in the repl 01:39:25 -!- weirdo [i=sthalik@c138-74.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:39:43 i'm more interested in knowing every single things' return val an stuff, for learning purposes. 01:40:17 m-v-list then. 01:40:22 values was perfect, thank you. 01:40:24 or /, at the repl 01:49:29 gko [n=gko@61-224-68-126.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:01 ddk50 [n=ddk50@p1033-ipbf4608marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:51:16 is that a new newssite? 01:51:24 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 01:51:59 generic methods can not be overloaded on number of arguments? 01:52:24 I want (bet myplayer) to return the value of the current bet 01:52:45 and (bet value myplayer) to set the bet 01:52:54 use setf, that's what it's for 01:53:13 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Client Quit] 01:54:07 I'd also like to know what the `message' bet mean here. If you really want to dispatch on optional arguments, you'll probably have to use a helper function to fill optional values in and then call the gf. 01:54:49 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 01:54:51 I guess the problem is that bet is both a verb and a noun in english 01:55:03 maybe it's better to call the first get-bet 01:55:04 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@XPLR-TS-10-VAN-67-201-133-74.barrettxplore.com] has joined #lisp 01:55:15 or the second make-bet 01:55:15 Why not call one of them "wager"? 01:55:33 synonym? 01:55:42 (... wagerlabs... What was "wagerlabs"?) 01:55:59 Ah. 01:56:01 nyef: the lisp/haskell/erlang/lisp/... dude. 01:56:18 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@XPLR-TS-10-VAN-67-201-133-74.barrettxplore.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:56:24 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 01:56:34 Yeah, apparently so. 01:56:44 anyway, it's not trivial to "overload" on number of arguments then? 01:57:05 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.27.29] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:57:16 There are sufficient -labs entries in my memory that there's a hash-collision there. 01:57:40 I'm not completely into the semantics of generic methods yet, so excuse my ignorance 01:57:50 (loonylabs, and for some reason I'm remembering things to do with intercal and scheme...) 01:57:52 olejorgenb: nope, no support for overloading in CLOS. 01:58:14 nyef: poor hash function ;) 01:58:38 pkhuong: ok, thanks 01:59:22 (and make-bet is considered bad naming, yes?) 01:59:40 why don't you use bet and (setf (bet ..) ..)? 01:59:47 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:00:32 pkhuong: Yeah, but what do you expect from a neural net? 02:01:02 pkhuong: I need to update another value, but that can maybe be accomplished with setf too? 02:01:30 hm.. ah, yes it can 02:01:56 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 02:02:14 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:07:55 ____kbd [n=kbd_@58.41.3.251] has joined #lisp 02:15:31 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:17:24 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:13 k_bd [n=kbd_@58.41.3.251] has joined #lisp 02:37:25 -!- ____kbd [n=kbd_@58.41.3.251] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:43:26 -!- jao [n=user@32.Red-79-155-153.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:45:43 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:49:30 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 02:49:48 derekv [n=derek@noogenesis.resnet.mtu.edu] has joined #lisp 02:51:35 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 02:52:01 Quick question for the folks here. 02:52:17 What's the best implementation of common lisp, in your collective opinion? 02:52:25 vhatte1 [n=Viet@cpe-76-167-220-105.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:52:56 Free ? Commercial ? 02:53:09 For what ? 02:53:27 Free, and for general use and experimentation. 02:53:31 Liempt: SBCL is popular among many people here, especially because many of the maintainers are often here. 02:53:38 What platform are you on? 02:54:51 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 02:55:32 Sorry. 02:55:34 Connection problems. 02:55:34 aiur [n=Jan@218.109.90.254] has joined #lisp 02:55:36 I'm on XP. 02:55:39 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:04:59 H4ns [n=hans@12-46-55-152.seatac.seattwa.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:07 vanLiempt: I'm quite sure there can't be a single answer to the very vague and ill-defined question you asked 03:05:19 that's like asking what is the best car in the world 03:05:36 -!- dtulig [n=dtulig@cpe-70-112-7-197.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:06:11 but you won't use the same car to drive in the mud, to impress chicks and to transport people to the hospital... 03:06:29 same goes for programming languages implementations 03:07:20 -!- echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:07:23 -!- vhattev [n=Viet@cpe-76-167-220-105.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:07:52 except you probably don't use programming languages to do any of those 03:08:14 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:36 actually, I did impress women with TeX, which is a programming language 03:08:59 nowhere_man, obviosely you've never seen the Hummer :P 03:10:06 ace4016: OK, add "drive in town easily and park you car" to the list... :-) 03:10:22 heh, just avoid compact car spaces :P 03:11:22 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.19] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:11:33 has SBCL been ported to windows already? 03:11:49 yes, it's just still marked as a work-in-progress 03:12:01 although it seems to work quite well 03:12:42 ah ha; always wanted to try SBCL but didn't want to put a linux partition in this machine 03:14:05 ace4016: how do other common lisp implementations not satisfy you, making you want to try sbcl? 03:14:23 ace4016: I actually use the free VMware player for such things 03:14:36 heh 03:14:44 it works very well if you have sufficient RAM 03:15:34 H4ns, never said anything about any implementation not satisfying the job, just curious to use others; makes no difference to me really 03:15:45 as long as i can get the job done 03:15:53 clisp has worked on windows for a long time 03:15:57 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 03:16:03 and ecl too, I think 03:16:28 yea, i currently use clisp 03:16:30 ace4016: that was kind of the background of my question. there are several common lisp implementations "free"ly available for windows. just pick one and learn some of it. 03:16:34 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:17:07 it's always nice to try something else though :P 03:17:26 knowing me, i'll never get around to using SBCL since i'm already cozy with clisp 03:20:09 -!- H4ns [n=hans@12-46-55-152.seatac.seattwa.wayport.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:23:09 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 03:33:42 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-082-212-009-082.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [] 03:39:58 H4ns [n=hans@12-46-55-152.seatac.seattwa.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:45 yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:45:52 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 03:46:33 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:47:48 -!- H4ns [n=hans@12-46-55-152.seatac.seattwa.wayport.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:52:42 -!- vhatte1 [n=Viet@cpe-76-167-220-105.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:55:57 H4ns [n=hans@12-46-55-152.seatac.seattwa.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:36 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 03:59:53 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:01:14 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:02:17 -!- gko [n=gko@61-224-68-126.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:06:13 what's the sense in writing in languages that have a 100 meg footprint when you can program in assembler. 04:06:13 mac=intel, linux=intel, win=intel 04:07:27 JohnnyL: when did you last code anything substantial in asm? 04:08:04 <_3b> why program in assembler when you can just work out the answer by hand? 04:08:18 -2 YEARS AGO for 6510 ,sorry caps 04:09:53 there aren't many things that fit (usefully) in a 65xx that would also be considered substantial nowadays. 04:11:09 Fortran was useful even when it targetted a single platform. Portability is a red herring. 04:11:12 <_3b> also, all 3 of those OS have common variants running on ARM and similar systems 04:11:44 pkhuong, bs 04:11:54 pkhuong, it's all bloat these days. 04:12:28 *_3b* prefers bloat with useful features to lean without the features i want 04:13:03 <_3b> the problem isn't languages, it is developers... people would write just as bad (probably worse) code if all they had was asm 04:14:59 *_3b* should get back to writing bloated code instead of feeding trolls though. 04:16:48 *JohnnyL* bows to _3b. 04:17:57 I was thinking of writing a lisp interpreter, but when the code goes deep the code becomes much harder to read. so my only real interest is either Ruby or Assembler. 04:18:32 JohnnyL: now that you have bowed to his highness and made your final remarks, you may leave. 04:19:41 yeah there is nothing useful for me here. especially the locked in technical support and charming attitudes. 04:21:06 anyway, the only value added lisp has is macros. 04:21:08 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 04:21:19 value added?? 04:24:34 VALisp 04:25:40 this is why so many people have bad opinions of lisp. it is the poor marketing. we forgot to mention that it was value added. 04:26:31 bobrown [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:42 "was stört's die eiche, wenn sich die sau an ihr reibt?" 04:27:22 yeah, i now, the language is wrong. but it is a good remark to make anyway! :) 04:27:28 Know 04:29:48 H4ns: how do I turn the subtitles on, in #lisp? 04:32:06 pkhuong: you click the "auto-translate" on your advanced, all-singing-and-dancing irc client written in common lisp! 04:33:29 pkhuong: "die sau" is a wild pig, "die eiche" is an oak, and the remark says something about how influenced the oak feels by the pig rubbing itself against it. 04:43:50 milos_ [n=milos@92.36.185.205] has joined #lisp 04:45:54 -!- H4ns [n=hans@12-46-55-152.seatac.seattwa.wayport.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:48:27 wol [n=wol@c-98-207-129-115.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:03 MrWGW [n=opera@cpe-76-174-153-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:55:09 I don't suppose that lisp paste dude is around right now? 04:55:24 *MrWGW* wants him to add lisp paste to another channel and feels too lazy to e-mail him 04:55:32 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 04:58:20 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:59:12 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.94.178] has joined #lisp 05:00:51 H4ns: hunchentoot-svn seems to run out of memory (or threads?) after a week or so of use (at least on FreeBSD). 05:04:03 -!- yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:06:35 yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:07:14 gko [n=gko@61-224-68-126.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:31 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-76-124-114-5.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:16:25 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-18-249.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:17:41 -!- sei_ [n=sei@213.234.18.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:19:45 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 05:20:41 good morning 05:20:47 morning beach 05:24:21 sei_ [n=sei@213.234.18.1] has joined #lisp 05:28:34 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 05:31:15 vhattev [n=Viet@cpe-76-167-222-127.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:36:10 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 05:36:51 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:39:46 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 05:39:56 bigtalk [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 05:41:16 IandI [n=pirch@96.18.21.206] has joined #lisp 05:44:03 vhatte1 [n=Viet@cpe-76-167-220-105.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:46:51 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit ["leaving"] 05:49:31 -!- vhattev [n=Viet@cpe-76-167-222-127.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:49:47 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 05:56:54 -!- bigtalk [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:56:54 -!- IandI [n=pirch@96.18.21.206] has left #lisp 05:57:00 bigtalk [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 06:05:00 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit ["leaving"] 06:07:37 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 06:10:54 -!- yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:13:01 -!- Rigdern [n=Rigdern@bosko-54.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [] 06:13:20 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 06:13:30 -!- holymoly [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:18:43 mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 06:19:31 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [Client Quit] 06:21:11 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 06:22:42 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:22:46 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:23:58 mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 06:26:56 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:30:35 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 06:37:05 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:08 -!- ddk50 [n=ddk50@p1033-ipbf4608marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:41:39 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:43:22 scottj_ [i=foobar@209.181.138.162] has joined #lisp 06:46:11 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-082-212-009-082.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 06:54:53 -!- scottj [i=foobar@209.181.138.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:58:03 -!- wol [n=wol@c-98-207-129-115.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:03:32 yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:05:08 Can I have some comments on http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/package-extensions.text please? 07:07:44 beach: did you also look at how lisp machines solved the issue? 07:07:46 -!- bigtalk [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 07:10:45 michaelw: no I didn't. Do you happen to know? 07:11:31 also, shouldn't it be (:alias ALIAS package [{:version version} | {:version-at-least version}])? or I am misunderstanding where this is added? 07:11:57 beach: ISTR, I gave you a link once, but I don't have it at hand now 07:12:02 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:12:02 yes of course 07:12:28 no wait, are you objecting to the order between alias an package? 07:12:41 *and 07:12:58 beach: no, but the alias (name) is not in that line 07:12:59 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-082-212-009-082.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:13:42 Right. Thanks! 07:13:53 bpr [n=user@cpe-72-226-72-222.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:14:03 I would expect (:alias #:foo #:com.acme.foo :version "0.1") or something (modulo order) 07:14:04 <_3b> might be nice to allow (or require?) specifying version as integers instead of a parsed string 07:15:16 michaelw: yeah. 07:15:39 _3b: I considered that. 07:16:16 <_3b> or possibly add a protocol to allow packagesd to specify their own versioning interpretation, probably more effort that it is worth though 07:16:51 well, I am not convinced about versions yet. (OS-level) package system experience tells me that you need a richer logic than that, and still it's easy to screw up 07:17:03 <_3b> but would be nice to be able to handle checkouts from things like darcs and got that don't really have inherent versions 07:17:04 _3b, like based on feature sets instead of an strictly increasing number? 07:17:24 <_3b> tic: or based on a git hash, or whatever 07:17:27 _3b, versions needn't map 1:1 w/ SCMs' ideas of a repository. 07:17:37 s/repository/revision. 07:17:46 <_3b> tic: right, but someone needs to specify the versions somewhere 07:17:52 michaelw: that might be true, but I perhaps it is better to have something at all, than the current situation. 07:18:21 _3b, anything wrong with the author doing that when releasing? or are you assuming client code will run on HEAD most of the time? 07:18:53 <_3b> tic: the assumption that the author does releases would be the 'anything wrong' :p 07:18:53 oh, sorry. didn't see your full statement. 07:20:34 e.g., people flip-flop on feature support between releases: v < 0.8 \/ v > 0.9, v != 0.9alpha (people come up with insane naming schemes, like 0.9.1alpha < 0.9.1) 07:21:43 so have a huge list of features instead of the number? :) 07:21:49 <_3b> possibly it would be better to leave versioning for something like asdf, and just worry about allowing multiple versions loaded at once (without worrying about /which/ versions)? 07:22:35 _3b: how do you select a particular version then? 07:22:43 tic: doesn't scale 07:23:21 <_3b> michaelw: by hand, or whatever 07:23:27 michaelw, I know. compute a hash based on the feature set? :) 07:24:12 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:24:13 perhaps it would be easier to just use a release date. 07:25:04 _3b: um, how? you need to have some handle to them. say I asdf:load-op foo version 1 and foo version 2, how do I select them as a client of foo? 07:25:07 ISO 8601 dates have the additional feature of being Common Lisp potential numbers (IIRC) 07:25:14 <_3b> feature set still requires someone to derfine and maintain a list of features 07:26:10 <_3b> michaelw: i'd assume most of the get renamed in some fashion, and anyone that cares uses the modified name 07:26:41 <_3b> michaelw: or something like asdf could temporrarily alias a particular one to the real name while loading a system with specific requirements 07:27:03 *_3b* is sort of assuming that using multiple versios at one would be a bad idea for general use though 07:28:50 _3b: what do you mean by "using multiple version at once" (assuming that's what you meant to type). 07:30:48 <_3b> pretty much what it says, if multiple versions are loaded at once through different dependencies of a particular system, seems like a recipe for trouble 07:31:25 _3b: you can hardly avoid that if you have several applications in a single Lisp image. 07:31:27 well, it probably becomes fun when you have both A using C-v1, B using C-v2, then an (unknowning) party handing C-v1 objects to C-v2... 07:31:40 s/both// 07:31:46 <_3b> independent applications would be less of a problem i suppose 07:32:14 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 07:32:42 michaelw: that could be fun indeed. 07:33:26 <_3b> michaelw: yeah, that sounds like the case i'm thinking about 07:33:57 _3b: "don't do that then" 07:33:58 hi guys 07:34:00 i'm an uber noob, learning to code in lisp. i'm trying to get the hangs of the below basics. how do i run examples like this: 07:34:03 http://norvig.com/paip/examples.lisp 07:34:09 i do (load "file") and typically an error or two will show up. for norvigs examples, there is something called 'tutor' missing 07:34:14 is that a library of some sort like in python? 07:34:28 <_3b> beach: do i have a choice, if A and B are third party libs, and I expect to use C directly myself as well? 07:35:39 _3b: how would you solve it using separate images? 07:36:32 <_3b> beach: i'm thinking more in terms of just having only C-v3 and having one of A or B break if they object to that 07:37:10 <_3b> beach: or preferably refuse to load i guess rather than break :) 07:37:21 holycow: there is a tutor.lisp file in the same directory. 07:38:11 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:38:40 holycow: you probably need to load auxfuns.lisp, tutor.lisp and examples.lisp in that order. 07:39:26 *doH8 07:39:35 right thx 07:40:24 holycow: How can you be a newbie still. You have been hanging out here for more than 3 years. 07:40:47 i haven't touched a lick of code unfortunately :/ 07:42:33 holycow, read PCL? 07:42:45 have it open right now *nod* 07:43:48 milosF [n=milos@92.36.182.142] has joined #lisp 07:45:10 -!- milos_ [n=milos@92.36.185.205] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 07:46:24 Morning, all.. Is it so that lambda does not create a block around the lambda body, whereas defun and labels do? 07:48:47 V-ille: yes 07:48:56 Quite subtle. 07:49:07 it's all spelled out in the spec 07:49:14 The hyperspec doesn't really mention this, AFAIK. 07:49:46 "The body forms (but not the lambda list) of each function created by flet and labels and each macro created by macrolet are enclosed in an implicit block whose name is the function block name of the function-name or name, as appropriate." 07:50:01 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.163.230.43] has joined #lisp 07:50:07 Yes, that is mentioned, but the lack of the block in lambda is not. 07:51:39 V-ille: it's also not mentioned that lambda's bodies are NOT implicitly wrapped in (with-open-file (in "silly") ...) ;) 07:52:32 Ehh.. Pardon my idiocy, but it would be logical to me that lambda would be mostly equivalent to defun, with the difference of not interning a function name. 07:53:25 I would expect it to "not implicitly wrap in imaginary form of my choice". :) 07:53:33 clhs defun 07:53:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defun.htm 07:53:53 this tells the relationship between lambda and defun 07:55:06 Ok, fair enough. 07:55:58 Most lisp implementations don't put a block around lambda (and the hyperspec explains it), but unfortunately abcl compiler seems to generate a block. 07:56:04 abcl interpreter doesn't 07:56:53 I would think that's a bug 07:56:59 Yes, it is. 07:57:10 *_3b* tried and didn't get one in sbcl 07:57:28 sbcl, clisp, cmucl, abcl(interpreted) all work the same way. 07:57:44 <_3b> ah, sorry, misread 07:57:48 (loop ((lambda () (return 42)))) should return with 42 07:57:50 No block. And as michaelw said, it's deducible from the spec that the block is wrong. 07:58:35 if there's an implicit block around the lambda body, it will spin 07:58:44 *V-ille* curses the cruel world of abcl compiler 08:00:37 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:00:53 -!- larsen_ [n=lorenzo@201.17.2.73] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:02:54 minion: memo for tcr: M-. on the second LIST of (let ((list 42)) (list list)) will jump to the binding form instead of the definition of CL:LIST 08:02:58 Remembered. I'll tell tcr when he/she/it next speaks. 08:06:39 -!- yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:07:48 -!- a-s [i=root@93.112.66.178] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:07:57 -!- sei_ [n=sei@213.234.18.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:08:32 sei_ [n=sei@213.234.18.1] has joined #lisp 08:14:11 Oh, in order to not forget manners: thanks michaelw 08:16:15 sudoer [n=jtoy@121.32.45.160] has joined #lisp 08:16:33 lurcio [n=marc@itsnotnormal.plus.com] has joined #lisp 08:20:15 -!- lurcio [n=marc@itsnotnormal.plus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:23:09 -!- milosF [n=milos@92.36.182.142] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:23:16 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.94.178] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:26:13 milos_ [n=milos@92.36.180.46] has joined #lisp 08:32:34 -!- vhatte1 [n=Viet@cpe-76-167-220-105.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:32:45 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:33:21 hello Athas 08:36:36 tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2E656.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:52 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-207-244-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 08:45:26 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-197-4-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:46:02 -!- aiur [n=Jan@218.109.90.254] has quit [Client Quit] 08:46:17 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:49:47 michaelw: RETURN exits from BLOCK, not from PROGN. LAMBDA contains an implicit PROGN, but not BLOCK. DEFUN contains an implicit BLOCK (which contains an implicit PROGN). 08:52:00 pjb: I know. it was a test case for V-ille (resp. abcl) 08:52:01 michaelw: LOOP contains an implicit BLOCK, so RETURN will return from the LOOP. 08:52:05 ok. 08:52:28 aumontabe [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 08:52:30 This is all well understood now and everybody's happy(?). :) 08:53:06 V-ille, a good unit test i think for ABCL about this would be : http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mfkb/km/km-2-2-19.lisp 08:53:37 Sorry, V-ille, michaelw I didn't read back enough. 08:53:39 well maybe 08:54:24 it exposes alot of multiple-value return bugs in ABCL 08:54:27 dmiles_afk: Will be taken under consideration. We have plenty of test in trying to get maxima to work properly. 08:54:28 umontabea [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 08:55:20 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm1.sigma230.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:55:23 -!- eaumontab [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:59:19 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 08:59:26 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:59:29 -!- aumontabe [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:01:13 _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:06:38 -!- lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-13-59.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:10:31 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Client Quit] 09:21:39 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-53-199.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:13 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:22:57 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@nat/yahoo/x-db77224df9423a91] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:23:52 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-86.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:26:20 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-85-73.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 09:26:38 chris2 [n=chris@p5B1684EC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:26:53 hjpark [n=user@59.9.201.17] has joined #lisp 09:30:54 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-015-169.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 09:35:08 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #lisp 09:39:22 montabeau [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 09:39:37 eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:40:43 Caamas [n=caamas@bur91-5-88-162-151-137.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:07 -!- umontabea [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:42:14 Aankh|Clone [n=pockled@122.163.227.18] has joined #lisp 09:42:33 BrianRice [n=water@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:37 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:44:51 -!- montabeau is now known as abeaumont 09:48:59 -!- k_bd [n=kbd_@58.41.3.251] has quit [""] 09:59:48 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:00:13 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.163.230.43] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:03:23 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:04:20 -!- sudoer [n=jtoy@121.32.45.160] has quit [] 10:05:46 dtulig [n=dtulig@cpe-70-112-7-197.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:06:49 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086202.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 10:07:50 mulligan [n=user@e178022128.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:11:48 Tordek [n=tordek@host194.190-137-179.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 10:12:08 -!- Caamas [n=caamas@bur91-5-88-162-151-137.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 10:12:44 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-140-18.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:13:44 Huzzah! My modifications to the Lisp code in Practical Common Lisp have both improved functionality and not broken it! :) 10:17:21 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 10:17:55 DanielRM: congratulations ((: 10:19:38 antifuchs: thanks. :) 10:19:56 what did you improve, then? (: 10:19:56 *DanielRM* has seen the glory of Common Lisp and will never look back now. 10:21:35 antifuchs: I made the selector function pass the list produced by remove-if-not into db-dump, which I modified to optionally take a list as argument (with a default of the actual database so it could just be called as (db-dump)). 10:21:57 antifuchs: it ends up spitting out the results of a query in a much nicer format. 10:24:02 antifuchs: the end result is this http://pastebin.com/f56650b45 10:24:27 dkcl [n=dan@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 10:24:38 ";I quite honestly have no idea how most of this format call works." (-: 10:24:52 antifuchs: heh, yep. :P 10:25:08 check out the hyperspec for ~{, it's quite easy (: 10:25:17 clhs ~{ 10:25:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgd.htm 10:25:57 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5494C49F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:25:59 Thanks. :) 10:26:55 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:27:36 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 10:30:16 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit [Client Quit] 10:31:03 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.11.222] has joined #lisp 10:31:44 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbd968.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 10:36:03 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-140-18.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:24 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.194.101] has joined #lisp 10:38:05 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-140-18.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:39:02 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:39:42 luis [n=luis@bl6-225-6.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 10:39:44 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:44:31 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 10:46:17 jao [n=user@32.Red-79-155-153.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:18 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:47:34 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:48:12 antifuchs: and now I've managed to wrap up the update function in the same way so that it passes the list to (db-dump). 10:50:36 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 10:53:53 Got to go now - speak later. 10:53:55 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:54:19 -!- hjpark [n=user@59.9.201.17] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:57:14 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 11:00:23 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.163.224.249] has joined #lisp 11:02:33 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 11:03:57 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:05:45 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:08:58 spacebat [n=akhasha@124-171-93-244.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:11:12 -!- sei_ [n=sei@213.234.18.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:13:03 schasi [n=schasi@p54A25768.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:18 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 11:14:14 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["leaving"] 11:14:27 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:56 gk3141592 [n=chatzill@81.214.133.44] has joined #lisp 11:18:09 I wonder why in-package is a macro 11:18:12 -!- Aankh|Clone [n=pockled@122.163.227.18] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:18:29 Aankh|Clone [n=pockled@122.162.159.196] has joined #lisp 11:18:52 spacebat: Look at its expansion, then think about why it expands to what it does. 11:18:53 tcr, memo from michaelw: M-. on the second LIST of (let ((list 42)) (list list)) will jump to the binding form instead of the definition of CL:LIST 11:19:15 *tcr* curses lisp2 11:19:53 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:20:41 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-53-199.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:21:17 yeah I'm looking at the expansion and not understanding it 11:21:34 in-package must have compile-time effects 11:21:38 spacebat: it has compile-time effects, so being a function is out 11:21:59 ok 11:22:06 tcr: what's lisp2? 11:22:08 and since it has no special non-toplevel effects, it doesn't need to be a special form 11:22:39 I guess I was looking for a runtime in-package 11:22:47 but instead I should just setf *package* 11:22:49 clhs *package* 11:22:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pkg.htm 11:23:00 yeah, or just bind it in a let or something (: 11:23:09 cool 11:23:18 Initially, USE-PACKAGE was supposed to be recognized by the compiler specially. But with the introduction of the EVAL-WHEN special form, this was fortunately cleaned up. 11:24:32 cYmen: a Lisp with multiple namespaces, in particular with a different namespace for value and function bindings. See KMP's paper for more information. (It's somewhere on nhplace.com) 11:24:35 Harmageddon_ [n=Harmaged@p57A760DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:39 moin 11:25:01 -!- Harmageddon_ [n=Harmaged@p57A760DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:25:27 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:31:32 -!- Aankh|Clone [n=pockled@122.162.159.196] has quit ["Help, help! I'm downloading and can't get up!"] 11:31:41 sei_ [n=sei@213.234.18.1] has joined #lisp 11:33:01 Aankh|Clone [n=pockled@122.162.159.196] has joined #lisp 11:33:55 yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:34:17 trebor_home [n=trebor@dslb-084-058-225-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:34 hello. 11:35:32 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.163.224.249] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:35:54 oudeis [n=oudeis@CBL217-132-97-170.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 11:37:14 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:37:29 how can i print leading zeros with format using ~R? 11:38:59 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A25768.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:39:10 found it, sorry for asking: (format t "~4,8,'0R" #b00111) 11:39:18 -!- milos_ [n=milos@92.36.180.46] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:40:11 schasi [n=schasi@p54A25768.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:28 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5494C49F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:41:01 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5494C49F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:39 milos_ [n=milos@92.36.132.224] has joined #lisp 11:45:02 -!- sei_ [n=sei@213.234.18.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:45:44 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@89-139-131-191.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 11:47:12 is there a good way to break a format string over multiple lines without messing up indentation? 11:47:35 ~ does that 11:47:36 cYmen: ~RET 11:48:18 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_cic.htm - that one 11:48:44 tcr: hooray for no window configuration! :) 11:48:52 cYmen: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/darcs/editor-hints/named-readtables/named-readtables.lisp --- look at the bottom of the file 11:49:04 michaelw: I won't do the necessary work, though. 11:49:07 ah 11:49:14 thanks 11:49:27 note that no editor right now will auto-indent that for you (AFAIK) 11:50:25 antifuchs: still beats no indenting and wrapping format strings 11:50:31 true 11:50:56 that was meant to prod tcr's imagination ((-: 11:50:57 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 11:51:29 why what's he working on? 11:51:40 tcr: what's is that code part of? 11:53:04 cYmen: http://common-lisp.net/project/editor-hints/ 11:54:00 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@CBL217-132-97-170.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:55:26 tcr: so like a basis for implementing slime for other editors? 11:57:22 No, it's to add stuff to CL to make editors (inlcuding slime) more powerful 11:57:46 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:58:24 _more_ powerful? :) 11:58:33 didn't know there were things slime can't do... 11:59:15 slime is actually pretty kludgly 11:59:51 worse is better etc 12:00:49 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:01:25 do you have a list on your project pages somewhere? 12:01:34 what improvements you'd like to achieve or sth? 12:01:48 There's a TODO link on that page 12:04:12 hmhm 12:04:37 grr, I can't find back documentation for the LispM "load multiple versions of package" feature 12:05:25 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 12:06:55 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:07:50 -!- yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:10:34 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Success] 12:12:15 yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:13:08 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 12:18:33 -!- gk3141592 [n=chatzill@81.214.133.44] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 12:21:57 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A25768.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 12:22:07 H4ns [n=hans@nmd.sbx08742.cambrma.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:53 yangsx [n=yangsx@221.218.210.129] has joined #lisp 12:33:04 oudeis__ [n=oudeis@89-139-177-109.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 12:35:54 -!- yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:38:34 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbd968.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:41:28 larsen_ [n=lorenzo@201.17.2.73] has joined #lisp 12:44:23 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@89-139-131-191.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:45:05 gk3141592 [n=chatzill@81.214.133.44] has joined #lisp 12:48:52 -!- gk3141592 [n=chatzill@81.214.133.44] has quit [Client Quit] 12:50:40 -!- Aankh|Clone [n=pockled@122.162.159.196] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:54:44 obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has joined #lisp 12:59:20 -!- oudeis__ [n=oudeis@89-139-177-109.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:59:35 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has left #lisp 12:59:44 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:04:29 *Xach* wonders about polishing, publishing his flickr library too 13:05:01 Xach: you're just a magically bot producing libraries aren't you? :) 13:05:14 s/magically/magic/ 13:05:35 it ain't magic, brother! 13:05:38 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 13:06:01 jlouis [n=jlouis@0907ds1-hvi.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 13:06:40 jeez the only people that have so much time are unemployed and playing wow! :) 13:08:20 lisp makes the time go by 13:08:23 slower 13:08:27 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:28 because lisp is interpreted! 13:11:15 that makes sense 13:12:31 Really, you should start playing WoW, Xach. It's scriptable in LUA. That's interpreted, too! 13:12:48 *_3b* wonders how many interesting lisps don't support cffi:with-pointer-to-vector-data well 13:13:06 _3b: how about usefully? 13:13:23 <_3b> pkhuong: what do you mean? 13:13:41 tcr: I'm looking at tests/test-readtable.lisp, where is MAKE-VAR defined? 13:13:58 That's not very useful for regular (upgraded element type = T) vectors. 13:14:25 <_3b> pkhuong: yeah, i have a fallback case for those 13:15:06 <_3b> but the 170x speedup for unsigned-byte 32 and single-float arrays makes a difference 13:15:30 <_3b> avoiding large piles of garbage is nice also 13:16:19 tcr: also, what's RRT and where can I get it? 13:16:28 _3b: clisp doesn't have specialised single-float arrays. 13:16:40 _3b: that depends, I have cases where I reduced consing from 500M to 1M and it was actually a few milliseconds slower 13:16:47 You do get (unsigned-byte 32), at least on amd64. 13:18:01 I believe Tamas Papp's FFA package is meant to allow you to pass lisp vectors to foreign code, with a transparent blitting phase as needed. 13:18:01 <_3b> michaelw: avoiding the garbage in this case is a side effect, so even if it adds a few ms, i don't mind since the rest saves 8 sec :p 13:18:35 <_3b> pkhuong: yeah, not sure i count clisp as 'interesting' though, at least until they get the JIT fast :) 13:20:33 <_3b> oh well, just needs to work on sbcl for now, since i didn't add it to cl-opengl yet :) 13:20:43 _3b: it's based on lightning. I wouldn't get my hopes up too much if I were you. A portable assembler hacked together by taking the intersection of what's available on a half-dozen platforms can't have that much... 13:21:36 luis: You're looking at the SVN repo? 13:21:59 yes 13:22:17 luis: RRT was a hacked version of RT by rpg; the tests are very dated. I haven't come around writing a test suite. 13:22:41 Oh, ok, I'll ignore them then. 13:24:13 luis: The SVN repository will become obsolete. 13:25:08 luis: You know the darcs repository I'm currently working on? It's on my private c-l.net account's webpage for the time being. 13:25:46 anekos_ [n=anekos@pl274.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:25:59 Thanks, grabbing that. 13:26:13 macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:26:34 tcr: how did the patch go? 13:27:26 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-76-124-114-5.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:37 I haven't done it yet. I'm not sure whether I'll find time today, as I'm pondering to go to the Oktoberfest. 13:27:51 ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:18 tcr: not to the selection ;) 13:28:38 election 13:29:23 tcr: october already? ;) Have fun. 13:31:03 vasa [n=vasa@mm-84-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 13:32:37 -!- sad0ur [i=sad0ur@ip-89-103-110-251.karneval.cz] has quit ["leaving"] 13:35:21 yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:36:37 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:38:10 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-164-83.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 13:39:30 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-164-83.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 13:42:17 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl274.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:46:14 if you've got some free time, you could try to hack up a with-readtable-iterator for ECL. I guess your C is less rusty than mine :) 13:47:03 luis: that was supposed to go to you 13:48:29 my plate is full, but I'll add that to my list 13:48:50 silenius [n=jl@p5B25D2C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:34 Paraselene__ [n=None@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:29 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:59:45 papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has joined #lisp 14:01:22 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@221.218.210.129] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 14:04:51 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086202.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:06:48 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:07:14 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:07:19 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:07:51 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:08:21 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:09:45 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:13:32 tcr: is there a spec? 14:19:00 luis: http://trac.clozure.com/openmcl/attachment/ticket/339/ccl.with-readtable-iterator.diff 14:23:36 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 14:23:50 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:24:49 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:31:47 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:32:14 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:32:48 v3rt [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:36:26 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 14:39:11 -!- dkcl [n=dan@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 14:39:44 dkcl [n=Dan6688@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 14:40:00 kohwj [n=di@bb121-7-29-131.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:40:08 greetings 14:43:42 cYmen pasted "a more elegant way to create a list of arrays than this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67563 14:44:18 that's just not pretty :/ 14:44:57 cYmen: have you looked at the initial-contents argument to make-array? 14:45:46 H4ns: yes 14:46:04 maybe not closely enough? 14:46:16 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:46:39 erm, looking at it again, you want to create an empty multi-dimensional array? 14:46:56 or, the other way round: can you express what you want to do in words, not code? 14:47:21 ah. no. you want a list of arrays, it's all there :) 14:47:35 <_3b> (loop repeat count collect (make-array ...)) ? 14:47:51 -!- macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Cet ordinateur s'est endormi (zzz)"] 14:47:53 H4ns: well i'm not picky about that if it's easier or more elegant or whatever to put it in an array then that's fine too 14:48:15 cYmen: what _3b says 14:48:18 _3b: ah yes that would be an obvious improvement 14:49:27 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:44 thanks :) 14:51:40 macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:53:23 hello kohwj, new here? 14:53:33 yeah 14:53:43 what brings you to #lisp? 14:54:12 i'm deciding what to learn next- lisp/scheme or haskell/ocaml/erlang 14:54:43 kohwj: Here in #lisp, we would most likely say Common Lisp. 14:54:54 Although lisp/scheme makes about as much sense as ocaml/sml. 14:55:03 minion: tell kohwj about PCL 14:55:04 kohwj: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 14:55:24 (and the other triplet even less so) 14:55:24 that's probably the best CL tutorial out there 14:56:10 kohwj: It is hard to say what's best. That one is pretty good and available online. 14:57:13 kohwj: what langauges do you already know? 14:57:20 *languages 14:57:59 python, mostly. java, perl, and ruby too 14:58:42 and i've read about the benefits of lisp and FP, which is why i'm looking around for the next language to learn 14:58:56 you could check out http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html 14:58:57 something that can handle NLP well would be nice 15:00:05 kohwj: common lisp does not have much more to offer in terms of functional programming than python. if you're interested in what fp means today, look at haskell, f# or ocaml 15:00:38 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 15:00:47 H4ns: yaht said that ocaml is really fast 15:01:04 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:01:09 kohwj: whatever "fast" may mean to him/her 15:01:40 kohwj: when you're interested in "fast", common lisp is not a bad choice as it gives you all the tuning opportunities that you may want to have. 15:01:54 The performance models of eager languages are simpler to understand. 15:01:58 H4ns: yaht- the yet-another-haskell-tutorial, said that ocaml is sometimes faster than cpp 15:02:07 H4ns: tuning? 15:02:45 kohwj: you typically start with general not-so-fast code and then add declarations and stuff to parts that need to be fast. 15:02:46 -!- lukego_ [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:02:59 kohwj: tuning as in performance tuning. 15:03:01 while i'm not enough of a lisper to assess the quality: http://antoniocangiano.com/2007/11/30/more-on-fibonacci-oops-sorry-lisp-haskell-runs-it-5-times-faster/ 15:03:09 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:03:21 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:03:29 cYmen: yeah, fibonacci numbers. fp people are basically obsessed with them. 15:03:41 :) 15:04:01 the canonical example of most of the presentations on the icfp conference i just attended was fibonacci number calculation 15:04:11 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:04:15 hah 15:04:19 he uses Int, which are basically fixnums. 15:04:21 in my some 20 years of professional programming, i did not need fibonacci numbers once. 15:04:29 Xach: no joke! 15:04:30 :D 15:04:47 H4ns: but maybe it could have made your programs that much more expressive! 15:04:55 H4ns: that's really depressing. 15:05:21 antifuchs: or expressionistic! :) 15:05:41 well, I'd say proper lexical scoping is pretty essential for FP. but perhaps these days Python has that too? :) 15:06:12 cmm: IIUC, if you stick to pure code, then yes (: 15:06:30 beach: well, he might use them in the next 20 years 15:06:56 *cmm* needed Fibonacci numbers twice: once as a allocation growing scheme (discarded), and once in an interview :) 15:07:00 yay, type systems: Letting you lie to your implementations since 1970. 15:07:08 Xach: I meant that they were the canonical example, of course. 15:07:27 There's the function optimisation method too. 15:07:37 pkhuong: sounds like a good idea for Xach's t-shirt obsessions :) 15:07:52 pkhuong: modern type systems conspire with the implementations and let you lie directly to yourself! 15:08:57 *mathematical function optimisation, that is. 15:09:13 *sigh* 15:10:19 Where can I find some nice formated lisp code? I'd like to develop good formating. 15:10:36 right now it's looks like C =) 15:10:43 minion: tell v3rt about PAIP 15:10:43 v3rt: look at PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 15:10:53 v3rt: just let emacs do the indenting. 15:11:15 v3rt: and never put closing braces on a separate line. there is not much more to it. 15:11:17 v3rt: you can also look at the projects on common-lisp.net. 15:11:24 but emacs disgusts me =) I use allegro CL editor 15:11:37 that should be fine too. 15:11:43 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:13:00 don't overdo it, or you'll never want to put the closing braces in the C-style syntaxes on a separate line again 15:13:12 would reading source code help me develop programming skill a lot? or is it better to just program yourself? 15:13:17 K&R didn't go far enough 15:13:36 v3rt: as usual, you need both. 15:13:38 v3rt: Yeah reading helps 15:13:54 v3rt: I really do like the style of Norvig in that book that minion told you about. 15:13:56 v3rt: hacking on other peoples code is good too 15:13:57 v3rt: it's like with natural languages. or any other kind of practical learning 15:14:11 wol [n=wol@c-98-207-129-115.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:26 -!- larsen_ [n=lorenzo@201.17.2.73] has quit ["later"] 15:17:07 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.11.222] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:18:31 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-20-69.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:25 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 15:22:04 *rvirding* hello everyone 15:22:11 hello rvirding 15:22:19 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:27:38 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 15:29:00 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 15:29:40 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:30:23 Buying PAIP. Best money I've ever spent in a book. 15:31:41 s/in/on 15:33:56 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host194.190-137-179.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:34:00 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1D464.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:11 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:35:02 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1E617.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:47 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-84-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 15:44:11 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 15:46:18 michaelw pasted "SERIES vs. LOOP" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67566 15:46:56 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:48:39 <_3b> why declare j and k outside the loop and increment by hand? 15:49:05 <_3b> ah, nevermind, didn't see the nested loops 15:49:44 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:50:34 michaelw annotated #67566 with "Complete code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67566#1 15:51:50 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:52:21 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:56:05 michaelw: that code doesn't use half the smartness that's in series :\ 15:56:23 pkhuong: like what? 15:57:39 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:59:59 dv____ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:00:02 it's almost a pure pipeline of 1 -> 1 functions (those are easy to handle), and the one step that isn't joins 2 completely independent streams. 16:00:22 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:00:32 pkhuong: that's because doing something else thrusts you into a world of pain 16:01:10 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:20 michaelw: in general or in series? If you mean the latter, that's pretty sad, because it seems to me series is impressive (and complex) because it tries to handle non-trivial patterns too. 16:02:01 -!- DanielRM [n=daniel@cpc1-grim8-0-0-cust625.nott.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["leaving"] 16:02:20 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:02:41 pkhuong: I didn't show you the other half of the series code. I don't get it fast because the series optimizers bail out on constraint cycles 16:03:14 -!- H4ns [n=hans@nmd.sbx08742.cambrma.wayport.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:06:01 given that sort of code, it's actually not hard to emit horribly inefficient-looking code (~CPS with multiple-value-call everywhere) that Python can easily optimize. 16:08:48 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.166.174] has joined #lisp 16:10:09 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:12:52 DanielRM [n=daniel@cpc1-grim8-0-0-cust625.nott.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:12 -!- macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Cet ordinateur s'est endormi (zzz)"] 16:14:15 H4ns [n=hans@72-255-6-32.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:18 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:15:43 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:15:50 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:16:13 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:16:23 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:16:57 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:16:58 -!- dv____ is now known as dv_ 16:20:01 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:30 kiuma_ [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:27:12 -!- dkcl [n=Dan6688@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:28:40 Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has joined #lisp 16:29:06 hello lispers 16:29:16 -!- kiuma_ is now known as kiuma 16:34:05 grnman [n=grnman@c-76-110-165-179.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:19 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:37:06 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has left #lisp 16:41:19 -!- subconscious [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:42:04 subconscious [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:44:27 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:44:52 -!- milos_ [n=milos@92.36.132.224] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:45:00 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 16:45:28 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-18-249.kosnet.ru] has quit ["."] 16:51:36 -!- yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 16:51:44 beach: thanks for the warm welcome. good night! 16:51:45 -!- kohwj [n=di@bb121-7-29-131.singnet.com.sg] has left #lisp 16:52:05 dkcl [n=Dan6688@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 16:55:09 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-86.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 17:01:50 is lisp a more practical language with which one can make programs that actually do stuff? 17:01:55 how can i begin that. 17:02:25 read practical common lisp 17:02:38 minion: pcl 17:02:38 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 17:02:42 emma: No. lisp is a language in whcih you can only make programs that actually do nothing. 17:02:49 okay. 17:02:55 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-20-69.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:03:01 nil is a perfectly acceptable program in Lisp. 17:03:11 and the most common one, too. 17:07:03 henux [i=henrih@unaffiliated/henux] has joined #lisp 17:07:43 hi emma 17:07:55 henux, emma: =] 17:08:41 okay so here is the plan: we haxxor ubnotu and take control of the channel? who is with me? 17:09:22 any ops around? 17:09:42 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 17:10:03 Hey guys. 17:10:46 WastePotato [n=ellis@unaffiliated/wastepotato] has joined #lisp 17:11:09 ert3 [n=ert3@199.120.31.19] has joined #lisp 17:11:13 ? 17:11:56 * 17:12:01 I've been playing with Scheme but I'd like to get started with lisp itself. 17:12:20 Practical Common Lisp. 17:12:25 (as linked to before) 17:15:32 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.166.174] has quit [] 17:15:45 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178022128.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:16:26 -!- ert3 [n=ert3@199.120.31.19] has left #lisp 17:17:34 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:18:11 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:18:43 what is the way to install modules with asdf on clisp and sbcl ? 17:18:58 you can try asdf-install 17:19:07 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:19:13 -!- v3rt [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 17:19:33 -!- henux [i=henrih@unaffiliated/henux] has left #lisp 17:19:41 download, extract, symlink. 17:20:08 is sbcl better than clisp ? 17:20:38 subconscious, how to install asdf-install 17:21:07 dagnachew: better at what? 17:21:24 they are both the same ? 17:23:56 dagnachew, http://common-lisp.net/~dlw/LispSurvey.html 17:24:32 sigma957 [n=user@c-71-59-252-229.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:39 -!- sigma957 [n=user@c-71-59-252-229.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:25:41 tcr: what happens in bavaria? ;) 17:30:46 nvteighen [n=nvteighe@27.Red-88-14-175.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:56 -!- nvteighen [n=nvteighe@27.Red-88-14-175.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 17:36:02 booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-75-20-201-254.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:01 trebor_home: elections 17:39:21 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-85-73.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:51 dagnachew: don't use asdf-install... use clbuild 17:39:58 minion: tell dagnachew about clbuild 17:39:58 dagnachew: look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 17:40:26 drewc, I found a page on asdf http://stumpwm.antidesktop.net/wiki/Compiling_CLISP 17:40:33 I will look clbuild to 17:40:47 asdf and asdf-install are different things. 17:41:25 asdf is like 'make' for CL.. a way to define systems. asdf-install is an older, no longer really supported means of installing lisp software from links on cliki.net 17:41:46 clbuild is a different approach that has a chance of being supported. 17:41:57 and will at least have modern software. 17:42:17 bleeding edge, even 17:43:27 ya, bleeding edge. Luckily lisp does not cut deep, and the flow of actual bloood is barely a trickle. 17:43:29 does clbuild work with gnu clisp or just sbcl ? 17:43:35 dagnachew: sbcl does threading on some os/arch combinations, and is generally somewhat faster than clisp for most purposes 17:43:39 dagnachew: why don't you tell me? 17:43:59 tell what ? 17:44:01 *rsynnott* keeps meaning to try clbuild 17:44:23 but has gotten used to a combination of asdf-install, and manual asdf installation 17:45:02 (this occasionally backfires; I discovered I had an evil break-y version of chunga on my laptop the other day which I'd forgotten about) 17:45:30 dagnachew: if you bothered to read the link minion gave you, the first paragraph answers your question... although not entirely clearly. 17:45:58 dagnachew: clbuild will work with any lisp, but prefers SBCL, CCL or clisp. 17:46:08 ok 17:47:12 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 17:47:27 cky_ [n=cky@203-211-92-109.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:47:29 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:48:09 -!- subconscious [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:48:17 subconscious [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:49:15 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-015-169.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has quit [] 17:51:08 -!- cky [n=cky@203-211-102-87.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:52:27 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D43C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:05 rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 17:56:12 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:56:59 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:57:14 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:38 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 17:58:27 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-178-0.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:35 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:02:30 jswetz [n=chatzill@c-5e4be555.186-14-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:02:51 -!- WastePotato [n=ellis@unaffiliated/wastepotato] has left #lisp 18:03:15 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:07:02 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 18:10:15 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:12:20 alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has joined #lisp 18:18:23 macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:19:13 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:20:35 kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:37 drewc: apt-get install bugzilla will install sendmail. i'd not want that :/ 18:20:54 -!- vasa-work [n=None@212.98.167.157] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:21:16 -!- macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 18:22:32 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.129.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:23:06 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 18:23:17 sellout [n=greg@pool-68-160-6-164.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:25 H4ns: does it want sendmail or just any mta? i think there is a fairly small one...forgot the name though 18:23:43 H4ns: i just installed postfix, it will no longer attempt to install sendmail. 18:23:55 cYmen: i'm comfortable with exim, and i thought that debian defaulted to postfix 18:24:02 drewc: ah, ok. thanks 18:24:21 emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 18:24:25 once there's some MTA there it will generally be happy enough 18:24:34 H4ns: it just wanted /usr/sbin/sendmail ... didn't care where it came from :) 18:25:07 thanks! i'm terribly inexperienced when it comes to debian 18:25:26 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 18:27:08 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:27:13 -!- emma_ is now known as emma 18:27:22 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [] 18:28:42 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 18:29:17 drewc: I just noticed what you said about asdf-install being no longer really supported... 18:29:41 drewc: I've been trying to get my bearings as a newbie to lisp 18:29:52 Aisling: I'm in a unique position to make that pronouncement. 18:30:01 drewc: haha :D ah, ok 18:30:22 Aisling: if you are on a *nix, clbuild is teh new hotness. 18:30:38 -!- bpr [n=user@cpe-72-226-72-222.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:30:49 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 18:30:52 macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:31:02 under windows, i'd probably pay for lispworks or allegro. 18:31:12 (hasn't come up yet) 18:31:28 H4ns: may I privmsg you? 18:31:33 -!- silenius [n=jl@p5B25D2C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:31:36 drewc: hmm.. I see! Thanks for the insight. 18:31:48 adeht: what's up? 18:31:53 Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has joined #lisp 18:31:56 I'll take a look at clbuild. 18:32:05 minion: tell Aisling about clbuild 18:32:05 Aisling: please look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 18:32:25 *hefner* finds clbuild confusing 18:32:35 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has quit [Client Quit] 18:32:35 i've contemplated an asdf-install built on clbuild for the next-gen cliki actually. 18:33:54 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 18:34:16 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 18:34:16 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:34:32 is there a way to do something like (loop for char in "string" .... ? 18:34:42 across 18:34:43 s/in/across/ 18:35:05 (yes, "stracrossg" :) 18:35:16 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 18:38:26 -!- segv_ is now known as segv 18:39:10 -!- obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:39:13 drew: if some package is not on backports.org, i basically lose? 18:39:37 obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has joined #lisp 18:39:37 (lose as in "need to learn much more about debian packages than 'apt-get install'") 18:39:53 H4ns: I'd chalk it up to a lose yeah. 18:40:05 *H4ns* sighs 18:40:20 well, not entirely .. if it's in lenny or sid we can usually run a hybrid 18:40:28 What's the recommended image library to do things like, say, scale an image? 18:40:36 mh, hybrid 18:40:38 I'm about to try cl-magick, because it returned 30 more hits on Google than "lisp-magick" did. 18:40:42 Piranha__: cl-gd does that fine. 18:41:16 Piranha__: also comes with good documentation and is well-tested (web sites with cl-gd ran for months for me, using cmucl) 18:41:23 H4ns: Thanks. I think I glossed over it thinking gd was for something else. 18:41:32 H4ns: if it's really an issue, a non-apt install is not a big deal .. debian leaves /usr/local alone for just such issues. 18:41:44 drewc: ok, then that is what i'll do. 18:41:49 Excellent! ch-image really left a lot desired. 18:41:57 *H4ns* needs to take care of his laundry first. 18:43:08 H4ns: I'll be down at my other boat most of today, so if you _really_ need me, feel free to SMS 18:44:03 When compiling SBCL and something (i.e. asdf-install) fails to compile, is there a better way to find out why than hunting through the scrollback? Like a summary error log or something? 18:45:00 when it fails, and you abort, the error message just above the abort is GENERALLY the problem 18:45:40 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:46:01 rsynnott: it's not presenting the error and asking if I want to abort, it just tells me after it's done compiling which packages failed to compile 18:46:21 scottj_: nope; but you can run make-target-contrib.sh yourself (source find-gnumake first) 18:46:34 ...and pipe the output somewhere searchable 18:47:02 I always build sbcl redirecting the output and error to a log file. 18:49:31 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:51:30 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 18:51:57 prip [n=_prip@host58-125-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:51:59 Wait, wait. What about the output/building-contrib.* files? 18:52:05 drewc: ok 18:53:12 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 18:53:23 nyef: oops, didn't know about them 18:53:48 Piranha__: quickhoney.com runs on cl-gd. you may want to have a look at http://bknr.net/trac/browser/trunk/projects/quickhoney/src/imageproc.lisp for some usage examples of cl-gd 18:54:14 michaelw annotated #67566 with "SERIES-alized (for pkhuong)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67566#2 18:55:09 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:55:30 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:15 the sad story is that this is probably the second-heaviest use of SERIES in existence... 18:56:51 *Xach* looks around for rahul 18:57:02 I'm building sbcl on win32 and asdf-install is failing because component gzip-stream is not found. sb-simple-streams also failed, could that be why or maybe I lack gzip libraries on my system? 18:58:13 Xach: okay, admittedly it was partly bait :) 18:58:25 scottj_: no. 18:58:27 nyef, thanks 18:58:35 sb-simple-streams has never worked on windows. 18:58:54 I'm not aware of anything called "gzip-stream" in SBCL's sources. 18:59:16 there is a lib called gzip-stream, but I didn't think it was a bit of sbcl 18:59:51 -!- sellout [n=greg@pool-68-160-6-164.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 19:00:09 it's possible that something in your local environment is getting pulled into the SBCL build. do you have an sbclrc or anything? 19:01:02 scottj_: did you install a "portable" asdf-install, perhaps via distribution packages? 19:01:08 sometimes I wish I could do (with-open-file (in *standard-input* :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) ...), but sbcl's synonym-streams don't like me. although they could, as per the spec... 19:01:23 kreuter, I renamed it .sbclrc-dontuse 19:01:58 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.194.101] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:02:33 antifuchs: only if the sbcl installer for windows has that. 19:02:47 oh (: 19:03:38 michaelw: wouldn't it be better for SBCL's *standard-input* etc. to be bivalent? 19:03:39 michaelw: why do you want to do that? 19:04:03 hello. is it ok as a first step to use http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/Lisp/comp.lang.lisp/2007-05/msg01835.html in order to radnomize a list/vector? 19:04:05 michaelw: what do you expect such a form to do when *standard-input* isn't a file-stream? 19:04:18 when *standard-input* is a file-stream, that does work. 19:04:46 erm, if file-stream were defined sensibly. 19:05:31 -!- wol [n=wol@c-98-207-129-115.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:06:41 kreuter: kreuter: synonym-stream to streams associated with a file are a-okay, too 19:06:56 silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 19:07:41 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:08:04 I'm confused. what are you saying doesn't match your expectations? 19:08:38 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:42 chandler: bivalent would work, too 19:09:05 kreuter: sorry, where was I unclear? 19:10:13 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:10:44 what do you expect OPEN on the initial binding of *STANDARD-INPUT* to do? 19:10:45 I think *standard-input* and friends must be text input streams, so I don't think your proposed form is a good thing 19:11:10 bivalency might be a sensible thing to allow, if we don't already 19:11:12 the initial binding of *STANDARD-INPUT* doesn't generally have a pathname associated with it. 19:11:34 (this is independent of kreuter's point) 19:11:35 though it is a synonym stream to a FILE-STREAM... 19:12:24 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:13:14 chandler: that's only because our definition of FILE-STREAM is broken. 19:14:49 bah. ch-image haters... 19:15:10 H4ns: did you see my comment about hunchentoot blowing up lately? 19:16:27 H4ns: Unlike ch-image, cl-gd is very well documented. But thanks for the link, and the recommendation. 19:17:02 Krystof: so, if I want to read bytes from stdin, what are my options? (w-o-f (in "/dev/stdin" :element-type 'ub8) ...) 19:17:14 The only disappointing thing is that I have to destroy images. But I understand finalizers to be very finnicky, so that's how it goes. 19:17:55 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-20-69.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:00 dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 19:19:12 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@0907ds1-hvi.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:19:22 michaelw: (sb-sys:make-fd-stream 0 :input t :output nil :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) 19:19:25 kzar pasted "dostring macro attempt" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67573 19:20:22 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:20:23 kzar: the dolist part is not returning what you want it to be returning 19:20:36 kzar: an easy way to see what it is doing is to wrap it in PRINT 19:22:46 Piranha__: oh fine, compare my documentation to Edi's. thanks a lot :) 19:23:24 -!- rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has left #lisp 19:23:41 slyrus: hmm, i remember your docs looking a lot less worse. but ch-image is tiny text filled with random garbage. what happened? 19:23:50 really? 19:23:51 chandler: bleh :/ 19:24:06 or, hack SBCL to make sb-sys:*stdin* and friends bivalent! 19:24:06 slyrus: yeah. citations are inline with the text for example. 19:24:10 Xach: url? 19:24:12 -!- jswetz [n=chatzill@c-5e4be555.186-14-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 19:24:13 which I think is ultimately the right idea 19:24:33 http://cyrusharmon.org/static/projects/ch-image_0.3.3/doc/ch-image.xhtml ... "Common Lispsteele1990common is a high-level programming language with a long history ..." 19:24:37 got it... 19:24:49 probably a bad CSS link. 19:25:03 oh, wait, I see what you mean. ok. 19:26:05 slyrus: I had to make a few small changes to get ch-image to work. I'll e-mail you a diff. 19:26:13 ok, thanks 19:26:27 vhattev [n=Viet@cpe-76-167-220-105.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:27 Piranha__: can i interest you in an S3 library? 19:26:51 hm, that documentation link doesn't even load for me 19:26:54 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 19:26:55 S3 looks expensive for anything I'd need. 19:26:56 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:17 *Xach* used it for a small project, wound up spending $0.25 19:27:54 s3's the data hosting thing, right? 19:27:56 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:56 How small of a project? =) 19:28:15 Calculate 100!? 19:29:30 slyrus: no, what kind of blowup? 19:29:52 I run out of memory (or maybe threads) after a week or so of use on freebsd 19:29:58 rsynnott: yes 19:29:58 hm. we don't have an outuput routine for line-buffered bivalent streams. 19:30:04 slyrus: what lisp? 19:30:11 Piranha__: store a bunch of banner jpegs 19:30:17 sbcl 1.0.20.5 19:30:41 slyrus: get more memory! :) 19:30:51 slyrus: that's bad and certainly needs investigation. why do you suspect that hunchentoot is at fault? 19:31:17 I suspect threads are at fault. Use SERVE-EVENT. :-) 19:31:35 chandler: Wrap which part in PRINT? 19:31:43 chandler: very good suggestion 19:31:53 H4ns: this didn't use to happen with the old hunchentoot, I'm just guessing that the fault lies with HT. No hard evidence. 19:31:54 *H4ns* does not run hunchentoot threaded 19:32:14 really? 19:32:32 kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 19:33:15 slyrus: yes. i distrust threads. they are too low level a mechanism and the wrong hammer to use for i/o multiplexing. 19:33:48 hrm... ok, maybe I'll try unthreaded and see what happens. 19:33:56 kzar: the DOLIST form in its entirety 19:34:20 H4ns: I have been ignoring hunchentoot. It sounds like there actually is a SERVE-EVENT mode now? 19:34:26 slyrus: run a good load generator against your site. i use tsung, works great and creates good confidence. 19:35:05 chandler: no. i just don't use persistent connections and let the frontend (squid) handle the concurrency 19:35:17 Oh, but it blocks your REPL? 19:35:24 slyrus: never seen that happen, even with a pretty high traffic site 19:35:39 chandler: no. i have threads, but just few of them. 19:35:57 now mind you, I'm running the latest release from Edi's site; it could potentially be a new-hunchentoot thing 19:36:14 Ah. I distrust threads to the point where I do not use threaded SBCL :-) 19:36:19 rsynnott: yeah, those two are pretty different now 19:36:25 slyrus: if you list threads, do you have a load of old ones lying about? 19:36:57 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-55-5.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:37:21 chandler: right on! :) 19:37:37 Which makes me the last araneida user :-) 19:37:57 chandler: i'm considering to move back to cmucl just for the safer multiprocessing. 19:39:59 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:33 chandler: I'm stuck, how do I return the collect (item) form each item in the body? I know the dolist isn't returning anything now but I don't see how I can do it. If I have a loop that goes through the body and collects (list 'collect item) then everything is stuck in extra lists.. I don't see how I can do it 19:46:01 -!- dkcl [n=Dan6688@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:48:38 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:50:51 kzar annotated #67573 with "closer" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67573#1 19:50:51 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has left #lisp 19:51:14 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 19:51:36 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:51:51 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:52:11 michaelw: try dumping a core with this loaded: http://www.progn.net/static/tmp/bivalent-tty.lisp 19:53:58 hey #lisp - is there a way to catch my input/output with dribble from slime ? it seems dribble only catch print statements and alike when run from slime 19:54:44 dribble from slime? eew that's just nasty 19:54:46 *MrWGW* ducks 19:54:56 *MrWGW* actually knows what SLIME is, /me is being facetious 19:55:10 MrWGW: whats the "right way" ? 19:56:33 kzar annotated #67573 with "closer still" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67573#2 19:58:37 michaelw: er, use a fresh lisp to load that file. sorry. 19:59:58 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:01:34 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:02:00 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:00 chandler: Not the last araneida user. I still use it at work, and don't plan on changing it. 20:02:10 -!- macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:02:16 Aloha, everyone. 20:02:38 hi rtoym 20:03:11 I almost need a notation like `@(collect ,item) so it knows to return something like collect (foo). As it is `(collect ,item) gives me (collect (foo)) which isn't going to work for loop 20:04:23 Anyone going to OOPSLA? 20:06:04 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:06:11 michaelw: the changed definitions above seem not to break any tests in SBCL. unless there are objections, I'll commit that upstream next month. 20:06:23 kji: my apologies, I was being totally facetious 20:06:27 "dribble from slime" 20:06:29 I mean yuck 20:06:33 but it probably works very well 20:06:36 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 20:06:38 its just a grotesque mental image 20:06:46 isn't most dribble somewhat slimey? 20:07:10 MrWGW: please do not monopolize the channel by sending half sentences. thank you. 20:08:05 H4ns: That makes me think, surely the server could join them automatically 20:08:05 -!- anekos_ is now known as awayekos 20:08:54 H4ns: my apologies, its a bad habit... 20:09:04 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:09:28 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-55-5.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 20:11:33 p8m_mobi [n=p8m_mobi@72-56-249-176.area2.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:13 funebre [n=mfunebre@c-71-227-176-54.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:44 Does trac.common-lisp.net work? It appears to be dead, and in fact, my ISP thinks its dead and sends me to it help page. 20:14:24 rtoym: i restarted it earlier, may have crashed again :( 20:14:31 kreuter: thanks, appears to work for me 20:14:34 *H4ns* checks 20:14:50 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:14:57 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 20:15:14 H4ns: Hmm. It's been dead for a couple of days for me. 20:16:10 kij: You can save the REPL's buffer content just as every buffer. 20:16:36 if i have a lisp-marco and 'call' another macro from that which has a parameter with the same name, how is expansion handled? does every macro make up his own namespace? 20:16:58 kreuter: hmm, except it's about 2.5 times slower than opening /dev/stdin as ub8... 20:17:06 slash_: You probably suspected this but you don't call a macro, what you said doesn't make sense 20:17:13 rtoym: dns problem, i'll email drewc but he'll not fix this until tonight. if you need it badly, i can come up with a workaround 20:17:21 yeah hence the quotes 20:17:41 slash_: If you show what you mean in lisp syntax maybe someone would know the right terminology 20:17:42 H4ns: Thanks for looking. No rush. I didn't really want to enter in a bug report. :-) 20:17:53 slash_: symbols for which a macro-function is defined, are only expanded if they appear in the CAR of a form 20:18:06 rtoym: ah. no trac, no bugs => all problems solved. 20:18:24 drdo [n=user@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:18:24 Yep. And no evidence there ever was a bug. :-) 20:18:29 michaelw: yeah, bivalent streams are slower than non-bivalent ones, unfortunately. are you using read-sequence, or calling read-byte over and over? 20:18:42 read-sequence 20:18:45 hm 20:18:54 slash_: There are three (well, five, but two don't make any sense) different mechanisms that I can think of to cause macroexpansion from within a macro. There's using the second macro within the macro body, there's using the second macro in the expansion of the macro, and there's calling MACROEXPAND directly. Which scenario did you have in mind? 20:19:24 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1D464.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:19:39 nyef: you headed to the meeting tomorrow? 20:19:49 Xach: That's the current plan, yes. 20:20:06 nyef: the second one 20:20:16 *Xach* is also planning on it, unless he's too ill 20:20:41 hm. spammers have found the boston-lisp registration address. :( 20:20:45 -!- p8m_mobi [n=p8m_mobi@72-56-249-176.area2.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:20:51 slash_: Ah. In that scenario, the invocations aren't even nested. 20:22:33 vasa [n=vasa@mm-90-94-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 20:22:49 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:22:58 *rvirding* good evening everyone 20:22:59 http://paste.lisp.org/display/67578 <-- i made up a simple example 20:23:53 H4ns: would it be possible to introduce a python style lock to get cmucl style multiprocessing with OS threads? (: 20:24:05 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:21 slash_: that bar macro doesn't care that a macro named 'foo' exists 20:24:28 slash_: In the case of (bar ), MACROEXPAND-1 turns it into (foo 1), which is then transformed in a separate step. 20:24:29 nyef: so you mean 'para' in the foo-macro will not be affected by 'bar' 20:24:31 slash_: It's just a normal macro expanding into some sexp 20:25:12 i what order will the expansion happen? 20:25:14 in* 20:25:22 the most inner first? 20:25:28 slash_: expansion of what? 20:25:31 these are just definitions 20:25:39 yeah but if i use them 20:25:50 yes? 20:25:56 You have not shown your use of the macro 20:26:30 slash_: Just try it out. Do you use Slime? 20:26:37 nope 20:26:52 gvim *hides* 20:26:52 slash_: (That is a hint to suggest that you show a use of the macro) 20:26:54 michaelw: what happens to performance when you use sb-sys:*stdin* rather than *standard-input*? 20:27:05 Really, even if there was any possible confusion, the fact that the parameter has to be rebound on entry to the expansion function should clear it up. 20:27:09 kreuter: hang on 20:27:11 ok 20:27:23 pkhuong: certainly. an interpreter lock, if you will. i'd propably use it if it was available. 20:27:53 subconscious: i have no function for using them, this is a general question 20:28:07 slash_: ok look consider: (bar baz) 20:28:22 slash_: that's what I was suggesting, look at one example to understand the whole process 20:28:31 ok 20:28:52 slash_: it will expand into (foo 1) which will then, because macroexpansion is done recursively, into (+ 1 1), and there are no macros left so it gets evaluated 20:29:00 kreuter: faster than *standard-input*, but still factor 2 slower than /dev/stdin 20:29:34 slash_: so paste your definitions into a REPL and then run (bar baz) see what happens 20:29:53 michaelw: can you share the test program code? 20:30:12 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:41 ok 20:31:24 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:32:09 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 20:32:20 -!- tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2E656.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:33:02 kreuter: I can send you the program, but I don't have time to boil it down now, if that's okay 20:33:23 that's okay. I just want to step through it. 20:34:21 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:34:36 -!- booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-75-20-201-254.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:34:53 kami- [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:34:58 hello 20:35:52 I have a strange behaviour of asdf on sbcl 1.0.19.35 on linux. 20:36:06 When loading trivial-features, it seems to get into an infinite loop. 20:36:54 possibly a time-stamp thing? 20:37:14 and it repeats 'loading system definition from .... # until ASDF1025 20:37:15 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:37:21 if the asd files are in the future, it gets confused 20:37:31 rsynnott: thank you. I'll check that. 20:37:40 sounds like an easy bug to fix. 20:37:42 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 20:37:58 bougyman annotated #67541 with "working prototype" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67541#6 20:38:11 (I've had lots of fun with this lately because my code lives on an NFS server running under vmware; vmware tends to get confused about what time it is if load is high) 20:38:39 can i get some stylistic/idiomatic criticism on the above paste? 20:38:49 it's working, finally, got the basic logic down. 20:39:00 -!- dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:39:10 bougyman: same as yesterday. way too many setfs, wrong indentation. 20:39:15 it doesn't seem like I should have to do all that string manipulation in the read-until-done loop 20:39:19 dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 20:39:23 H4ns: right, that's what i'm asking for advice about. 20:39:26 rsynnott: yes. that's it. the files were checked into mercurial on a system running gmt+2. And checked out on another system running UTC. 20:39:28 what's wrong with the indentation? 20:39:51 kami-: just touch them all when they're in their final destination and all should be well, then 20:39:51 bougyman: new-socket, the body is not indented. use an editor that groks lisp. 20:40:09 bougyman: what editor are you using? 20:40:11 this is limp, tic's lisp editor 20:40:11 rsynnott: thanks you. touch is running. 20:40:30 bougyman: i can recommend emacs. it groks lisp well. 20:40:35 ah, the body of the let in new-socket, i missed that. 20:40:44 also, you're not disonnecying, anywahere? 20:40:48 H4ns: what of the read-until-done? 20:40:52 oops, sorry; silly lag 20:40:54 rsynnott: not as of yet. 20:41:08 bougyman: the loop is very hard to read 20:41:11 bougyman: i cannot read it. to many setfs that make it very hard to understand what is going on. 20:41:14 kreuter: sent 20:41:47 H4ns: that's what i'm asking how to get rid of, in fact. 20:41:58 does that limp thing not auto-indent? 20:41:59 bougyman: and the body of the when is not correctly indented either. if you need to use an editor that is stupid, please emulate what emacs does before posting code for review. 20:42:16 i'm just concatenating temp (read-line stream) and string with the setf's in read-until-done 20:42:20 rsynnott: yes, it does. 20:42:21 bougyman: (when (setf ...)) is not something you normally do 20:42:34 H4ns: i'm not going to be using emacs. 20:42:35 wait, you're just accumulating a string until something matches? 20:42:37 it is as bad as if (foo = fun()) { ... 20:42:38 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:42:45 tcr: i did that to save the results of the values so I can use matches later. 20:42:57 clhs with-output-to-string 20:43:03 bougyman: *shrug* you'll have a hard time getting your code reviewed when it is not indented in a sane manner. 20:43:17 specbot: ? 20:43:23 H4ns: not a problem, i just need to know the proper way to do so. 20:43:30 You're code is not very readable. The comments actually make it harder to read. 20:43:36 bougyman: if you really hate emacs that much, try cusp? It generally indents properly 20:43:39 bougyman: plenty of code to review to see what's conventional 20:43:50 bougyman: fire up emacs, use "M-x indent-region" on your lisp file and see what happens 20:43:55 (I'm quite surprised that the limp thing doesn't, given it has a swank connection) 20:43:57 bougyman: in general, indent all loop keywords vertically 20:44:09 kreuter: http://l1sp.org/cl/with-output-to-string :) 20:44:32 bougyman: The names of your functions are not very descriptive either. 20:44:33 -!- MrWGW [n=opera@cpe-76-174-153-163.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [No route to host] 20:44:48 Xach: are you volunteering to play specbot from now on? 20:45:12 one sec, one thing at a time. 20:45:31 gah. computers hate me. 20:45:41 bougyman: why don't you read through a good lisp tutorial and through some other source code first? 20:45:45 slyrus: you perchance still here? 20:45:57 cYmen: yes, but only for a moment. what's up? 20:46:08 bougyman: i'm sorry to say that, but your code looks like basic in disguise. 20:46:33 -!- Paraselene__ [n=None@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [] 20:46:40 slyrus: if you ever have a little time i would like to hear why you decided to treat images as matrices...i can't think of any operations that would treat images like matrices 20:46:55 (if matrix means matrix in the mathematical sense that is) 20:47:01 cYmen: affine transformations, e.g. 20:47:14 bougyman: paste.lisp.org is being really slow for me, but I'd suggest having read-until-done return two values, rather than a list. 20:47:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_out_.htm 20:47:23 also, you're not using LOOP terribly effectively. 20:47:42 cYmen: adding two images together. multiplying the values at each pixel by a constact factor, etc... 20:47:47 damn, paste.list.org is down. 20:47:51 correction. p.l.o is not working at all 20:48:01 kreuter: yes, that's why I have that in the TODO list. 20:48:14 p.l.o is in a peculiar state, I'm poking it 20:48:20 H4ns: i dunno, is PCL a good lisp tutorial? it's the only one I was recommended. 20:48:27 kzar annotated #67573 with "Figured it out in the bath" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67573#3 20:48:41 bougyman: you may continue... 20:48:57 bougyman: yes. but you'll not find code that looks like yours in pcl. 20:49:03 bougyman annotated #67541 with "indentation try" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67541#7 20:49:14 is that loop indentation right now? 20:49:22 chandler: lisppaste wedges when I try to abort to repl, but runs fine when sitting in the debugger 20:49:28 (...) 20:49:30 H4ns: the loop indentation was taken from the clisp wiki page on some socket stuff. 20:50:05 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:50:30 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:20 bougyman: (when (setf (values full_match matches) ...)); first, in Lisp we use dashes, no underscore; second, where are the bindings for FULL_MATCH and MATCHES established? 20:51:26 vhatte1 [n=Viet@cpe-76-167-220-105.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:54 to be fair, what you're doing is slightly nontrivial. 20:52:22 bougyman: Notice that, unless in some other languages (which in fact are broken in this regard), SETF does not introduce new bindings, but merely assigns to an existing binding 20:52:45 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 20:53:00 bougyman: And you're Lisp implementation should really signal a style-warning about this. 20:53:18 bougyman: not to discourage you, but you know about cl-mpd, right? 20:53:27 STYLE-WARNING: thwap tcr! 20:53:33 ok, found the limp indenting fucntions. 20:53:36 minion: thwap to tcr 20:53:36 tcr: please look at thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 20:53:49 michaelw: i looked for a cl-mpd, didn't find it. 20:53:53 perhaps I didn't look hard enough. 20:54:05 in any case, i need to get this done as a first project. 20:54:07 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-mpd/ 20:54:26 kreuter: when you said 'sounds like an easy bug to fix', did you mean the asdf timestamp issue? 20:54:27 *stassats* has his own mpd library too 20:54:31 kami-: yes. 20:54:46 it's been around for a while, it seems 20:54:55 there are quite old mailing list items about it 20:55:03 kreuter: can you point me to the place where I could find some info? 20:55:12 kami-: asdf.lisp? 20:55:14 Riastradh: I apologize. 20:55:34 tcr, sorry, I couldn't resist. 20:55:39 Riastradh: there should be a gentler thwap for non-native english speakers. 20:55:44 -!- funebre [n=mfunebre@c-71-227-176-54.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:55:59 I know, I know -- it was just that he had mentioned style warnings in exactly the same sentence... 20:56:05 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 20:56:50 kreuter: got the email? 20:57:44 yes, looks like. 20:58:19 michaelw: i don't like parts of that implementation, certainly. 20:58:48 michaelw: at the least i was thinking the lisp version should be the same length as the versions i've seen in other languages. 20:58:56 that one's really long for such a simple protocol. 20:59:06 and all of the commands are exlicitly defined as functions. 20:59:21 Riastradh: why is it called thwap? 20:59:24 that's unnecessary with mpd, they can (should) be dynamic based on "commands" 20:59:35 kreuter annotated #67541 with "Possible rewrite of READ-UNTIL-DONE (untested)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67541#8 20:59:38 tcr, dunno, ask chandler. 20:59:54 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:01:15 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 21:01:17 kreuter: looks good, forgot to replace 'temp' with 'line' on the regex match. 21:01:20 checking with that change. 21:01:26 oops 21:01:45 kreuter: i'd write (when full-match (return-from read-until-done (get-output-string-stream string) matches)) 21:02:02 anyway. 21:02:15 yeah, that'd be nicer. 21:02:28 that's the logic I was trying to utilize. 21:02:34 The fifth entry for Thwap in the urban dictionary came somewhat... unexpected 21:02:52 so setf gets a lot of crap in here, but it's kind of touted as the end-all-be-all of assignment in the PCL. 21:03:14 he does go into the fact that assignment itself is not needed as much in lisp, but I guess I took more to the first concept and not the second. 21:03:21 bougyman: setf is swell, but not assigning things is sweller. 21:03:30 assignment is easy for line-by-line debugging in the repl 21:03:44 bougyman: yes, if you want to perform side effects, setf is the way to go. Note the condition. 21:03:47 but the with-blah block operations are more proper in final code, i'm hearing, yes? 21:03:47 bougyman: There's also the notion that the use of assignment for what is rightfully a function call is wrong. 21:03:52 rsynnott: sorry for being so ignorant, but the asdf cliki page doesn't mention a mailing list and google doesn't help. Which mailing listdealt with the timestamp problem? 21:04:12 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 21:04:16 can't remember, to be honest 21:04:22 I was searching for it a while back 21:04:25 bougyman: No, composing your problem into subproblems, each solved by its own function makes it easy to be debugged at the REPL. 21:04:29 and found various mailing list posts 21:04:42 michaelw: I'm not at all familiar with SERIES. it'll take me some time to unravel. 21:04:53 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 21:04:58 tcr: i'm getting that, i think started with one function and it's now 7 21:05:01 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 21:05:24 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:30 tcr: i was just using setf and format to concatenate a string instead of with-output-to-string block form. 21:07:00 kreuter: i can try to reduce it tomorrow. but if you macro-expand the outermost binding expression referring to a series, you'll see that it boils down to a big honking loop 21:07:17 ok 21:08:19 rsynnott: maybe one of the cclan mailing lists? http://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=28536 21:09:05 -!- drdo [n=user@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:09:08 -!- vhattev [n=Viet@cpe-76-167-220-105.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:09:23 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-76-124-114-5.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:09:24 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-20-69.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:09:24 bougyman: why it need to be a string? i'd rather use a list of returned from mpd strings 21:11:15 i would, too! 21:11:26 stassats: that is to be the next step. 21:11:36 stassats: I have this written already in a couple other languages, but one step at a time. 21:12:01 when it's done it'll just be proof to me that I can accomplish a desired task at least as good as in the other lingos. 21:12:03 http://stassats.dyndns.org/git/gitweb.cgi?p=mpd.git;a=blob;f=mpd.lisp here is my varint of mpd library, though it isn't finished yet 21:12:29 stupdi question. 21:12:36 in sbcl, how to require that file? 21:12:45 (require "path/to/file") is the fail 21:12:54 you don't require files. 21:13:01 you (load) them, then? 21:13:21 bougyman: Only if they come standalone. Most likely, they depend on other files. 21:13:44 (require 'foo "path/to/file"), on the other hand, is perfectly valid 21:14:10 and in sbcl, that's wired into asdf right? 21:15:06 thank you, kreuter 21:15:08 er Krystof. 21:15:16 kreuter: that worked. 21:15:28 Elly [n=pyxy@PHYREXIA.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:15:33 er Krystof. dang my tab finger is too active. 21:15:45 xjrn_ [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:45 stassats: you just avoiding regular expressions to not have to depend on the cl-ppcre lib? 21:16:56 stassats: I was considering that, but cl-ppcre made it so much easier. 21:17:19 bougyman: yes 21:19:17 Is there a way to get mapcar to only collect objects that fit a certain description? (as opposed to collecting the objects based on a condition, and a blob of NILs) 21:19:27 in my current lib (ruby) i have MPDPlayer, Song, Status, and SongList 21:19:47 sykopomp: there are plenty of ways to do that 21:19:49 so those are the object I was going to mimick in this lib, as well. 21:19:54 sykopomp: time for loop. 21:20:09 sykopomp: loop/collect, remove-if/-not, mapcan, etc 21:20:33 Xach: ah-ha. I forgot about remove-if-not. Thank you :) 21:20:43 drdo [n=user@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:20:45 sykopomp: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/38571/common-lisp-idiom-is-there-a-better-way#38823 21:21:33 remove-if-not is what I was looking for, and it's wonderfully concise :) 21:21:47 rtoym: trac.cl-net should be back by TTL. 21:21:48 and and it works well. 21:21:59 I just released a new version of LFE, Lisp Flavoured Erlang, you can get it from trapexit.org or github 21:22:04 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:22:10 sykopomp: yeah, it's pretty useful. I wonder why it's deprecated though. 21:22:18 m/sg how do i get in on the stackoverflow referral bonus thing? 21:22:21 it sounded more like a (loop for x in list when (frob x) collect it) 21:22:31 You need erlang to run it, and need to know erlang to use it. 21:22:37 that would have worked better if i had "/msg luis" in there correctly. 21:22:41 luis: the argument is that remove-if + complement is all you need. 21:22:43 bougyman annotated #67541 with "indentation as done by limp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67541#9 21:23:04 before I go changing it, is that the proper indentation, pkhuong, as expected by emacsers? 21:23:05 drewc: yeah, still. 21:23:17 Xach: what do you mean? 21:23:22 i think the consensus is that the depreciation of the -if-not variants is depreciated. 21:23:23 luis: weak joke attempt. 21:23:29 pkhuong: i know the documentation is wrong, going to change the ;; comments to docstrings next. 21:23:44 Xach: ah, yeah, I'm looking like a real stackoverflow fanboy, sorry :) 21:23:46 bougyman: why are you addressing me? 21:24:42 Does stackoverlow have a nntp gateway? 21:24:58 tcr: rss is the new nntp. 21:25:12 Isn't that one-to-many? 21:26:00 bougyman annotated #67541 with "documentation moved to docstrings" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67541#10 21:26:24 pkhuong: sorry, you had commented on the indentation earlier. 21:27:28 actually not, i though you had. 21:27:39 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:27:56 a-s [i=root@93.112.65.128] has joined #lisp 21:29:03 the indentation is okayish 21:29:39 bougyman: I wouldn't do the extra newline aftre LOOP 21:29:51 -!- drdo [n=user@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:30:04 so :for on the same line as loop? 21:30:25 *luis* doesn't use keyword symbols in LOOP either 21:30:45 oh wow, that changes it a lot. 21:30:54 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-90-94-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 21:31:24 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:31:24 bougyman: and I'd use "while line do\n" 21:31:29 do all of the loop operators work without : 21:31:40 yes 21:31:51 -!- subconscious [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:31:58 Yes; I can't remember that gigamonkey uses keywords in PCL, does he? 21:32:25 no, but the recent sockets stuff i've been reading has. 21:32:40 i didn't know what the implications were of using the bare vs : 21:32:58 which sockets stuff is this? 21:33:04 while line do syntax highlights weirdly 21:33:17 http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes/socket.html that sockets stuff 21:33:34 I put the DO on the next line, usually 21:33:34 bougyman: eccentricity, mostly 21:33:36 I started with the implementation specific sockets stuff, before moving to usocket for portability. 21:33:45 power's out, gotta plug in. 21:33:52 (cl-indent-patches indents that correctly) 21:33:53 thank you for the assistance. 21:34:12 clhs ~{ 21:34:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgd.htm 21:34:21 bougyman: its not very important, mostly a case of symbol pollution. 21:36:08 pkhuong: I assume you didn't work on the :test frobbage? 21:36:53 tcr: nope. 21:39:51 is an eql specializer like a normal specializer that does not allow subclasses? 21:39:58 no. 21:40:16 then i don't understand how they're used in pcl chapter 24 21:40:32 It's true if the argument (not the class of the argument) is eql to the specialised value. 21:41:07 cYmen pasted "from pcl's binary-data.lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67581 21:42:11 pkhuong: so in the pasted example the things that have to be equal are what? 21:42:34 why don't you try and read until these generic functions are used? 21:42:51 cYmen: cYmen 21:42:55 Oops. 21:43:26 cYmen: normal specializer match based on type of the argument while eql specializer match based on value equality of the argument. 21:43:37 but how is equality determined? 21:43:43 cYmen: with eql. 21:44:08 and how does it make sense to apply a method to only one object instead of a bunch of objects? 21:44:25 You seem to be confused 21:44:30 i am 21:44:32 cYmen: how does it not? 21:45:03 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:45:11 cYmen: you might have called that a singleton in another language. 21:45:46 oh lord 21:46:00 schasi [n=schasi@p54A25768.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:15 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A25768.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:46:23 cYmen: call me pete 21:46:36 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:46:39 hi max 21:46:51 oh sorry did i get that wrong? :) 21:46:51 cYmen: for example, make-instance has eql specializers on class names to create instances of the corresponding classes. 21:47:56 s/has/could have/ 21:48:06 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B1684EC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:48:22 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:48:22 adeht: so...the idea in the pasted code is to use the class name to determine the type instead of the actual type? 21:48:39 -!- dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:48:42 cYmen: there's no class. There are only symbols. 21:49:46 i'm trying to put it together but fail 21:50:28 how exactly are classes and symbols related? 21:50:32 michaelw: is this a realistic shootout program sample? 21:50:37 You want to do something difference depending on whether the first argument is UNSIGNED-8 or SIGNED-16 or what not. 21:50:42 *something different 21:50:59 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:51:07 (oops) 21:51:28 The class is useless: they're both symbols. You want to compare for equality of the values themselves, not subclassing. 21:51:56 cYmen: sorry, I confused the irc channels. 21:52:58 pkhuong: but some classes are not symbols and can be used to distinguish stuff? 21:53:10 cYmen: after "(define-binary-type foo ()) 21:53:30 You can "(read-value 'foo *standard-input*)". 21:53:46 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 21:54:10 cYmen: classes are not symbols. Have you seen how the generic functions are used? 21:54:42 cYmen: no classes are symbols; all class names are symbols; you can specialize on any object, including symbols, including class names. 21:55:21 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:55:56 kmkaplan: looks right to me ... so? 21:56:16 That's all there is to it. 21:56:23 cYmen: what's the class of FOO? 21:56:53 mh....uh...depends i guess? 21:57:11 I am very much out of the loop, and naive google searches didn't turn up anything promising - has there been any work to extend the compare-and-swap implementation in SBCL into a set of lockless thread-safe data structures? queue, etc. 21:57:17 cYmen: FOO is a symbol. Its class doesn't change. 21:57:18 cYmen: the purpose of read-value is to create and fill an instance of a binary-class using data read from the stream. what binary-class? the one named by the symbol passed to it. 21:57:36 tritchey: nikodemus posted some code to -devel for queues. 21:57:59 pkhuong: ahh, thanks - I'll try to find that 21:58:06 pkhuong: but isn't "class of foo" referring to the class of whatever might be assigned to foo? 21:58:18 loxs[] [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 21:58:25 adeht: so it's like specifying the type by giving the name? 21:58:36 -!- a-s [i=root@93.112.65.128] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:40 cYmen: the class of the value the expression " 'foo " evaluates to, if you prefer. 21:58:40 cYmen: the binary-class, yes. 21:58:42 The "class of foo" is *not* interesting. 21:59:10 hello. Could you tell me which is the most widely used implementation/compiler/interpreter for CL on linux systems? 21:59:19 What makes it match is its value. It is the symbol foo. 21:59:46 loxs[]: SBCL in combination with the Emacs mode Slime is mostly recommended here. 22:00:12 pkhuong: Where can I can read about the difference between deftransform and source transforms? 22:00:34 cYmen: iirc read-value can also be used on non-binary-classes as well, like u32 ints and such. so there's also a specialization on the U32 symbol and such. 22:00:41 the cmucl manual? the python paper? 22:00:54 and tcr, will a program written in SBCL compile/run on systems like windows or mac? 22:00:54 tcr: not sure. source transforms are applied very early (ir1-translation, when sexps are transformed into structures), and they pretty much have to act like macros. 22:01:10 source transform ~= compiler macro. 22:01:33 deftransforms are applied afterward, once we have type information, etc. 22:01:39 could somebody contruct me two examples please? i have a remote idea what's going on now but not why 22:01:52 pkhuong: It's all IR1, though? What does IR2 add? 22:02:14 tcr: well, source transforms work at the sexp level, really, while the sexps are transformed into IR1. 22:02:17 kmkaplan annotated #67581 with "Example of eql specializer" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67581#1 22:02:35 loxs[]: A programm written in portable Common Lisp will hopefully run in any Common Lisp implementation that conforms to the standard. 22:02:47 IR2 is the representation just before emitting asm, blocks of VOPs. 22:03:18 Ah makes sense. Thanks. I definitively have to checkout the stuff available about CMUCL, and Python, though. 22:03:58 thanks tcr 22:04:01 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:05:17 kmkaplan annotated #67581 with " And the output" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67581#2 22:05:21 *tcr* would really like a slime contrib that visualizes sbcl's ir1 graph. The inspector is a bit anemic. 22:05:55 Where are the smug clim weenies if you need them? 22:06:21 kmkaplan: and this is used to create singletons? 22:06:25 tcr: and here I was, thinking graphviz, unix and some chickenwire. 22:06:49 Your taste is rather horrible, Sir! 22:06:50 cYmen: I don't know what singletons are. 22:07:05 cYmen: no, that's used to directly express what the singleton pattern does: specialise a method on a single value, rather than on a class. 22:07:33 pkhuong: i thought the idea of the singleton pattern was to make sure that only one object of a kind ever existed? 22:08:34 cYmen: but why do you need to create a whole class for that one object, instead of using a global variable? So that you can dispatch methods. 22:09:06 -!- loxs[] [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:10:25 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-27-220.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:12:32 AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:13:08 p8m_mobi [n=p8m_mobi@72-56-201-121.area2.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:38 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:13:59 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:02 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-27-220.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 22:14:54 pkhuong: can you have multiple deftransforms dispatching on arg-types? 22:15:31 tcr: yes. Different docstring => different transform. 22:16:09 -!- ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has quit ["bbl"] 22:16:19 how is the execution order determined? 22:16:23 It's not. 22:16:53 In practice I think it's in reverse order of definition, but there's no way to enforce any ordering. 22:17:44 so the "patterns" should not overlap, I guess 22:18:01 or it should be confluent. 22:18:39 I'm not familiar with that term; what is it? 22:19:20 says "onfluence is a property of term rewriting systems, describing that terms in this system can be rewritten in more than one way, to yield the same result." 22:19:56 -!- kami- [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:21:17 That's weaker than how I usually see it used, though. I expected something like "all the ways in which the terms can be rewritten yield the same final result." 22:21:19 Perhaps I should take a course about term rewriting; after all, my boss is referenced at the end of that article :) 22:22:05 Term Rewriting and All That is available on one of the authors' homepage. 22:23:26 -!- silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:23:41 I know. 22:24:29 kami- [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:25:07 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:27:22 I recently purchased _The Hacker Ethic_ by Pekka Himanen, which I'll now go reading instead of hacking SBCL. 22:31:14 -!- p8m_mobi [n=p8m_mobi@72-56-201-121.area2.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:58 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D43C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:33:45 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:38:46 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 22:38:55 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-76-124-114-5.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:36 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-015-169.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 22:44:02 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:26 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:53:42 -!- kami- [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:53:44 kami- [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:55:50 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 22:57:02 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone"] 23:04:51 anyone know what the meta key is for the emacs that comes with macos? 23:05:03 just curious, really; haven't been able to find it 23:05:38 rsynnott: in terminal.app? 23:05:42 *rvirding* night good people 23:05:52 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 23:06:23 yep 23:06:56 rsynnott: terminal.app sucks in that regard 23:07:01 rsynnott: whatever your terminal decides it to be. Mac-, to bring up the settings panel, keyboard tab => Use option as meta key 23:07:17 IIRC, the feature you need that pkhuong just mentioned was added only in 10.5 23:07:28 No, it's been there for a while, S11001001. 23:07:39 As far as I can remember, anyway. 23:07:44 The trouble is that it's Option, not Command. 23:07:58 ah, so it is 23:08:02 bizarre 23:08:25 I assume you can chaange it with the other keyboard option 23:08:30 nice to know, though 23:08:32 Riastradh: not on my 10.4 23:08:33 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Gone"] 23:08:37 rsynnott: if you swap command and option, sure. 23:08:51 option? ouch 23:08:56 I swapped command and option and set caps to control 23:09:02 S11001001, I know that I have used it at least since 10.3. It may be in a different place. 23:09:49 not that I generally use that emacs, of course, but I always wondered 23:10:52 less ugly font than the default carbon emacs one, anyway :) 23:10:58 anyway I just use gnome-terminal 23:11:09 (does anyone have a recommendation for a decent font for that, btw?) 23:11:31 I always use Emacs with Courier 12, whether anti-aliased or not. 23:11:35 I use monaco, 11pt in emacs and terminal. 23:12:03 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:12:19 *Xach* is an 11x14 fan 23:12:25 can you switch off the anti-aliasing in carbon emacs? I do't like it very much 23:12:29 Riastradh: are you going to the meeting tomorrow? 23:12:46 monaco 15pt 23:12:46 (this is the one thing I prefer about my work system; NT Emacs is nicer looking) 23:13:36 Xach, sorry, I didn't know there was to be a meeting, and I'll be a hundred miles from Boston anyway starting a few hours from now. 23:14:02 Riastradh: have you attended any of the boston-lisp meetings? 23:14:10 tomorrow's promises to be good. 23:14:37 rsynnott: the first hit on google for "carbon-emacs anti-aliasing" seems promising. 23:15:24 kreuter, not Fare's meetings. 23:15:32 ok 23:23:15 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:24:46 -!- kami- [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:24:48 kami- [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:26:36 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:27:12 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:30:17 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@XPLR-TS-10-VAN-67-201-133-74.barrettxplore.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:19 kpreid: hm. "working fine now" 23:31:42 Debolaz [n=debolaz@nat.andersberle.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:50 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:33:44 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 23:34:19 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:30 -!- obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:43:04 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 23:44:01 feagondpt [n=pedro@89.181.37.16] has joined #lisp 23:45:02 JIPsucks [n=pipo@190.176.178.63] has joined #lisp 23:50:49 -!- jao [n=user@32.Red-79-155-153.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53:42 -!- kami- [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:01:00 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 00:01:12 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:25 Oman612 [n=chatzill@c-71-60-93-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:22 pstickne__ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:00 -!- pstickne__ is now known as pstickne 00:10:56 anyone have a binding for pulseaudio? 00:11:07 if not, i am writing one 00:11:12 so tedious... 00:12:31 oh, man. don't support terror. 00:13:03 -!- JIPsucks [n=pipo@190.176.178.63] has left #lisp 00:13:31 i think it is the least-bad solution to my problem 00:13:54 That might be. Linux user? 00:14:07 yup 00:14:19 basically, i have two sound cards that i like to randomly switch between 00:14:24 xmms2 can't output to two devices 00:14:33 i can't get alsa to make a device that copies samples to both cards 00:14:48 mpd supports multiple output devices, but it is very poorly coded 00:14:49 so *sigh* 00:15:12 oh, and i could write my control script in C... but i promised to never write a C program 00:15:15 so... haskell or lisp :) 00:15:32 the deterioration of linux audio over the last five years really makes me want to blow something up, but that's offtopic. 00:15:34 you can write a lisp program that writes the c program. 00:15:39 hehe 00:15:56 hefner: agreed 00:16:03 *Xach* did that to "compile" a truetype font to a big cairo/C program 00:16:13 it is a design smell when alsa outputs to pulseaudio which outputs to alsa 00:16:19 the design of alsa is not that bad though 00:16:29 I can't say the same for the execution 00:16:45 *hefner* mutes himself 00:16:56 yeah, you're preaching to the choir ;) 00:19:46 yay, clisp and zs3 working together in harmony 00:20:00 -!- Oman612 [n=chatzill@c-71-60-93-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 00:20:01 it seems like every c library has its own (*&#$ing hash table implementation 00:20:03 very fun. 00:20:22 C programmers are data structures experts. 00:20:47 I think you forgot the tags. 00:20:55 -!- hefner is now known as sarcasm 00:20:59 hey, if you get it to run without segfaulting, it's a real sense of accomplishment 00:21:48 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:52 langzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-058-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:03 "C programmers are data structures experts. 00:22:29 very nice 00:22:41 sarcasm: ooh, nice quote! where can I get it from? :-) 00:23:03 -!- sarcasm is now known as hefner 00:23:05 but the opening tag is colored, while the closing tag isn't ;) 00:23:23 hefner fails to mute self due to buggy sound driver 00:23:43 the opening tag doesn't match the closing one here ... ah, the wonders of xml 00:24:41 I recently found myself in the losing end of an ongoing discussion with a C++ fanatic who was convinced that Lisp couldn't "properly" support data structures, because Lisp doesn't have pointers. 00:25:04 kami-` [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:25:28 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:47 yeah, you can't do linked lists! 00:25:59 what are these crazy "cons cells"!? 00:26:00 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 00:27:29 kreuter: wow. Is the fanatic an autodidact, or do they teach that somewhere? 00:27:39 um 00:27:53 probably more the former than the latter. 00:28:04 i think people memorize a bunch of patterns, and then apply them where it looks like they should 00:28:09 hence to popularity of "design patterns" 00:28:15 instead of "using your brain while programming" 00:28:43 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 00:30:16 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:36:06 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:38:56 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 00:41:22 -!- teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-061-210.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:41:45 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:36 I know I have never used data structures in LISP; everything can be done with integers 00:43:38 manic12_ [i=user@c-67-175-53-21.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:36 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:45:33 God made the natural numbers; all else is the work of man. And since God wrote it all in Lisp... 00:47:41 i thought it was perl 00:48:00 Bah, xkcd lies. 00:48:14 Don't believe any of that neo-gnostic claptrap. 00:50:09 hmm, i think i broke erc 00:50:44 apparently you cannot cut-n-paste the result of a slime evaluation into an erc buffer 00:50:44 irrational numbers don't exist, and don't give me any of that roots of fractions nonsense 00:50:48 you can, but it doesn't do anything 00:52:09 as with , we are not yet wise enough to understand the numerator and the denominator 00:53:42 -!- kami-` [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:56:14 i understand 22 and 7 just fine! ;) 01:07:00 pkhuong_ [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:07:18 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:07:23 -!- pkhuong_ is now known as pkhuong 01:12:08 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 01:12:56 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:13:32 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:21:01 -!- manic12_ [i=user@c-67-175-53-21.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:21:04 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:22:32 -!- langzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-058-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:23:02 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:23:13 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-058-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:19 ushdf [n=ushdf@syru152-180.syr.edu] has joined #lisp 01:23:32 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-058-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:23:36 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 01:25:13 kami-` [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 01:26:35 -!- emacs-dw` [n=user@cpe-69-202-149-234.twcny.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 01:26:46 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:28:54 -!- derekv [n=derek@noogenesis.resnet.mtu.edu] has left #lisp 01:34:18 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:34:43 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 01:35:01 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:37:15 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:39:40 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:40:05 JustWhie [n=chatzill@c-71-60-93-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:09 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:41:19 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:45:41 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 01:51:11 vhattev [n=Viet@cpe-76-167-220-105.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:53:42 -!- kami-` [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:53:45 kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 01:54:09 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:59:13 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 02:00:32 -!- trebor_home [n=trebor@dslb-084-058-225-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:02:07 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 02:03:29 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:03:31 -!- vhatte1 [n=Viet@cpe-76-167-220-105.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:03:55 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 02:03:59 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-015-169.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has quit [] 02:14:47 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 02:25:25 -!- kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:25:27 kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:26:15 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:27:55 -!- kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:27:58 kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:28:13 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 02:36:29 kaspyanand [n=vishal@59.182.78.116] has joined #lisp 02:36:29 perhaps a bit of a long shot but... 02:36:40 hi 02:36:47 has anybody read any papers about the application of intelligent agents to network security? 02:36:57 i need help for scheme syntax 02:37:11 specifically application server penetration / DOS studies 02:37:23 i have defined this program 02:37:25 (define (even x) 02:37:25 (if (= (/ x 2) 0) 02:37:25 (0) 02:37:25 (2))) 02:37:42 but i get error when i call (even 2) 02:37:54 procedure application: expected procedure, given: 2 (no arguments) 02:38:09 (0) is a call to the function 0 02:38:16 (2) is a call to the function 2 02:38:21 perhaps? 02:38:25 kaspyanand: also, this is for #scheme. 02:38:53 k 02:38:53 I like the idea of scheme, but have shied away from the reality so far 02:39:14 spacebat: it's not so different once you hunt the half dozen SRFI you need. 02:39:26 :) 02:39:47 well, really, scheme is like CL in that you just need to write out how you would do something in english, then add parentheses and macros until it runs 02:40:45 I'm a perl monger by day, and I've come to like the use of prefix sigils to partition the namespace 02:41:55 python annoys me and I suspect scheme will too, when all these nice succinct names are taken by objects of other types that it would be nice to not shadow 02:43:50 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:17 at least scheme gives you naming conventions for destructive / non-destructive ops 02:44:23 python just has different datatypes 02:44:31 e.g. tuples vs lists 02:45:27 and there's a new duality for the UTF-8 strings in Python 3000, IIRC 02:46:15 -!- kaspyanand [n=vishal@59.182.78.116] has left #lisp 02:53:42 -!- kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:55:14 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:56:26 sunwukong [n=salvi@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 03:01:01 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-178-0.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:05:00 rhickey [n=rhickey@ool-457e4394.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:00 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-20-69.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:40 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:28 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 03:18:37 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092414]"] 03:21:25 cadabra [n=cadabra@72.8.125.9] has joined #lisp 03:21:47 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@72.8.125.9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:21:59 EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has joined #lisp 03:23:10 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:12 spacebat: should have trained yourself on elisp. then you'd have learned right up front that all the good names were taken 30 years ago and to lead off everything with mypackage- :) 03:25:40 kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:26:16 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:26:42 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:47 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:29:21 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:29:43 its enough to make me interested in portable hemlock 03:30:10 spacebat: geez, is it that bad? No reason to start carrying poison around just because you don't like something. 03:30:17 but (> interests free-time) 03:30:47 hey, if it was good enought for socrates 03:30:49 oh wait.. 03:30:54 :3 03:31:27 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:31:42 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 03:33:47 DoctorChaotic [n=no@c-67-177-214-28.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:58 anyone here code in C++ too? 03:34:30 Can someone refresh my memory? What's the lispy name for the kind of program that takes a Lisp system and a given "main" function, and strips out all the unneeded definitions so you can theoretically then save just the stuff you need and not have a zillion petabyte binary file? 03:34:43 this isn't #masochism 03:34:59 a treeshaker 03:35:29 cute name 03:35:32 pkhuong: That was it! Thanks. My memory isn't what it was. I swear, two hundred years ago I would have been able to remember that. 03:35:46 pkhuong: what do you think of ecl? 03:35:52 spacebat: was that directed at me? 03:35:56 spacebat: never touched it. 03:36:07 yes DoctorChaotic, please ignore my snark 03:36:27 ok... I don't know enoubh CL to really know if something is good 03:36:39 I don't think it does TCO though 03:36:44 spacebat: no problem.. I'm taking a C++ course and I'm trying to make the best of it 03:36:56 DoctorChaotic: try ##c++, or wherever the topic tells you to go. 03:37:32 pkhuong: I'm trying there too, not getting much traction 03:37:36 but I made a few little programs with ecl and had it compile them to standalone binaries 03:37:50 well, not statically linked, they still pullin the ~1MB ecl.so 03:38:44 I like the idea of unix (little focused tools) mixed with lisp (little focused languages) 03:39:54 and piping s-expressions between these little tools, while not the most efficient thing, is better than piping either raw text or xml around 03:40:22 spacebat: try MS's monad shell. 03:40:45 I don't run MS anymore 03:40:57 but I hear good things here and there 03:41:19 the object piping from their new shell is what I had in mind 03:41:45 spacebat: I think Lisp is a lot more like Emacs ("everything you could ever possibly need, just an esc-meta-alt-ctrl-shift key away!") rather than like Unix ("one tool does one thing"). For the record, I like Emacs's/Lisp's way better, but I can see the strengths of both. 03:42:31 yes that's what I like about ECL, it seems to bridge the Lisp monolith with the Unix/C aggregate 03:42:37 pkhuong, that you are suggesting it leads me to think that you may have never tried it 03:42:58 if you could do everything wrong... 03:42:58 sohail: it has the same idea of piping structure data around. 03:43:06 and it has the advantage of actually existing. 03:43:11 :) 03:43:18 and only having one platform to support 03:43:40 and billions of dollars pouring into the application infrastructure 03:44:03 I hope those of you in the Boston area will join me tomorrow at the Boston Lisp group meeting, where I'll make the case for Clojure - http://fare.livejournal.com/134108.html 03:44:16 hi rhickey 03:44:16 spacebat: I'd never heard of ECL. Looking at the home page now. How complete is it as a Common Lisp? CLOS? MOP? Fully kitchen sink compliant? 03:44:35 spacebat: hi 03:44:37 its pretty far along as I understand it, but I'm a bit green to know 03:44:51 EtFb: it's actively developed, and compliance is a design goal (as opposed to CLISP or GCL). 03:44:53 I'll get back to clojure when I've made more sense of lisp in general 03:45:02 EtFb: You could make a case for Scheme as a more minimalistic "Unix-like" approach within the Lisp fold. 03:45:12 aja: Good point! 03:45:33 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:45:46 *EtFb* tries to complete the metaphor: could there be a SLIME for vi that uses Scheme...? Or is that too evil... 03:45:54 EtFb: In fact, I think that's quite close to the argument that many scheme advocates do make. 03:45:59 yes... and there's scsh, mzscheme and and other handly little schemes about 03:46:23 asdf25 [n=jeff@pool-96-241-127-243.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:25 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:46:35 I don't mind if emacs/slime is my gateway into this world of little tools 03:47:26 pkhuong: I'm interested in your comment about compliance. Are CLISP and GCL less focused on standards than on some other principle? 03:47:26 now if someone would port clojure to D... 03:47:27 lol 03:48:04 ECL comes from GCL, not sure about compliance but the author wanted it to be more linkable and less dumpable 03:49:21 spacebat: How so? "Dumpable", I'm guessing, means something about making an executable binary. Linkable in the sense of writing libraries/services/daemons, do you mean? 03:50:19 spacebat: ecl and gcl share a common ancestor. 03:50:59 pkhuong: Like men and apes, or C++ and satanism... 03:51:02 um the story goes that the guy wanted to port gcl 03:51:12 pkhuong: A "missing linker" so-to-speak. Badum-ching. 03:51:20 but its bootstrapping or something involved dumping an image, and he was having a hard time of using this image 03:51:34 EtFb: GCL used to strive for CLtL2, and only recently started working on ANSI; the default mode is still CLtL2. CLISP has some idiosynchrasies too. 03:51:46 so he set about rewriting it so more of the CL functions were implemented in C 03:51:47 me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 03:52:09 spacebat: ... so he used *another* implementation as a basis for his fork. 03:52:11 and he made it to build more like a C app 03:52:15 ok 03:52:30 "Ecolisp" doesn't exactly read like "GCL". 03:52:36 I don't know if it can dump images anymore, but its embeddable hence the name 03:52:37 -!- rhickey [n=rhickey@ool-457e4394.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 03:52:38 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 03:53:35 spacebat: Yep, it's got c:build-program and c:build-library. I wonder what the binary file sizes are like... 03:53:40 it has an interpreter, uses gcc as its compiler, can build standalone dynamically linked binaries 03:53:42 -!- kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:53:44 kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:53:52 and from a C app, all the CL functions are directly callable 03:53:59 ... Not that it matters in these days of terabyte hard disks going for ten dollars a pop at WalMart... 03:54:18 I made a few trivial programs that ranged from 75kB to 200kB 03:54:26 and they link to ecl.so which is about 1MB shared 03:55:17 spacebat: It's still got a REPL, debugging, all that jazz? 03:55:28 spacebat: How's its integration with SLIME and ASDF? 03:55:38 yes on the repl and debugger 03:56:01 but they're a bit raw, I'd like to use slime with it, and haven't found the time to try and set that up 03:56:37 its bundled with debian btw 03:56:52 Wow. Why haven't I heard of this before? It looks like a killer! Even works on that little-known DOS windowing shell that company in Seattle sells... 03:57:05 I use that instead of bc for quick arithmetic 03:57:16 hehe 03:57:32 ah, ola bini... "in most cases everything will just be either lists or atoms". An atom is exactly anything that's not a cons :| 03:57:55 pkhuong: exactly, get it? :D 03:58:00 where's that from pkhuong? 03:58:30 spacebat: olabini.com, his blog. 03:58:45 So what's the catch? Slower than Ruby? Rots the brain more than VB? Restrictive licensing requires dedication of first-born to Beelzebub? Resulting binaries cause cancer in rats? 03:58:54 funnily enough it was seeing Langauge::ECL on the CPAN that tipped me over the edge of the lisp rabbit hole 03:59:31 pkhuong: Possibly distinguishing against things like sequences and/or CLOS objects -- in other words, meaning to say "simple data structures"? 03:59:32 its faster than python for many things (when compiled) 03:59:43 aja: which are atoms. 03:59:50 and if its in debian then the license is pretty open 04:00:04 pkhuong: Agreed. I'm just trying to figure out what he might have meant. 04:00:09 resulting binaries are tied to your libc's ABI 04:00:47 I don't know enough about ecl specifically or lisp in general to know what the catch really is 04:00:58 but I'd like to know what others think 04:01:21 aja: he seems to be under the delusion that macros only deal with his mythical lists and atoms (which are not sets, vectors or objects) in CL because they're read via reader macros, unlike Clojure, where they have to deal with complicated things like objects or sets too. 04:02:29 pkhuong: Ah. Yeah, I could see where that could be a problematic point-of-view. It's hard to argue with someone who doesn't understand the words you are using. :-) 04:03:15 aja: i'm not arguing, just trying to make sense of a blog post. 04:03:15 pkhuong: As I'm sure Joe Biden will find out. 04:03:50 pkhuong: Or read a post that is using familiar words wrong. :-) 04:04:00 *aja* goes over to read it. 04:05:31 -!- feagondpt [n=pedro@89.181.37.16] has left #lisp 04:05:37 sely_ [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:57 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.141.150] has joined #lisp 04:07:03 pkhuong: Isn't he saying that, unlike Lisp, clojure has data structures that ultimately are neither lists nor atoms? 04:07:42 pkhuong: Which, although I share some of his distaste, isn't all that surprising on something that targets the JVM. 04:08:16 aja: "such as sets, arrays and maps." Those exist in CL (well, not by default for sets). 04:09:39 pkhuong: Agreed, but in Lisp, those are implemented as abstractions over the list/atom fundamentals, no? 04:09:56 pkhuong: Is he maybe overloading "atom" to mean what Perl calls "scalars"? So a Lisp array isn't an atom because it's not a single piece of data... or something. I'm guessing. 04:10:22 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:10:24 -!- sely_ [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:10:28 sely_ [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:33 aja: sets, arrays and maps are atoms. 04:12:07 yes, cons and atom form a complete partition of Lisp objects 04:12:41 also list and (and boolean atom), and more importantly (eql 42) and (not (eql 42)) 04:13:54 pkhuong: Yeah, good point (and I tend to bounce off that far more frequently than I should). EtFb has an interesting point about scalars. Anyway, I may be reading what he says incorrectly. I certainly don't have sufficient background in clojure (or even Lisp data structure implementation) to say for sure what the distinction might be 04:15:45 *aja* often wonders how creating the latest lisp-but-not-quite language became so trendy. 04:16:01 aja: blame SICP 04:16:07 aja: you should have asked rhickey when he was around. 04:16:20 "omg, I can make a DSL. Let's just do that forever and ever" 04:16:46 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5494C49F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:16:54 EtFb: whatever he may have meant, it doesn't really inspire confidence in the quality and depth of his thoughts. 04:16:57 I blame brucio for that 04:17:11 The thing about the scalars analogy is that, in Perl 5 at least, references (ie pointers to complex structures) are stored in scalar variables, so he could very well be using that mindset: everything is either a cons, which is a clever data structure built into the language that has two parts, or else an atom, which is [begin-error] a scalar that doesn't hold a reference pointer, or... not. 04:18:13 sykopomp: Well, I just did exactly the same (DSL) thing for a project. I do, however, wonder why every time I turn around there is someone either creating the next (clojure/L#/Arc/whatever) or frantically working at getting lambdas or closures on their favorite blub. 04:18:22 pkhuong: Ah well, have to make allowances for the youngsters and their young, johnny-come-lately language ideas (ie everything from COBOL and later)... 04:19:07 what's wrong with just writing a lib for CL? :< 04:19:16 (I mean, if you're not just doing it for fun) 04:19:56 mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 04:20:07 sykopomp: it's often simpler (tehcnically and politically) to add what you need piecemeal to a language that is already omnipresent in the project than to introduce a new one, especially when your plan is to rewrite the whole code base in that new language. 04:20:11 sykopomp: Cause no-one ever got laid for adding another library, however important. "Hey, I design languages. Want to come back to my place and see my parse trees?" 04:21:11 *EtFb* wonders if there's a smutty pun in there along the lines of Lisp being sexier AND cheaper because there's no sin tax... 04:21:26 pkhuong: my point exactly. I appreciate the CL's community's tendency to expand CL, as opposed to what seems to be the Scheme Way of writing a whole new language (unless I misread what you wrote. It's late. Brain is no works) 04:22:28 sykopomp: that was about extending $FOO rather than rewriting it all in your favourite language. 04:22:32 sykopomp: It's worth noting that Forth is the same. If you've seen one Forth, you've seen... one Forth. "Standards are a great idea! Everyone should have one!" 04:23:01 -!- me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:23:27 me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 04:24:18 *aja* has theorized that (having worked with Lex and YACC), it's so much easier to do a DSL in Lisp that it attracts many people who aren't that experienced. And, if you're going to create a new language using Lisp, it's easier to make it Lisp-like. 04:25:56 -!- kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:25:59 kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 04:26:33 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 04:29:37 good morning 04:31:08 Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has joined #lisp 04:41:59 -!- asdf25 [n=jeff@pool-96-241-127-243.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:48:01 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@XPLR-TS-10-VAN-67-201-133-74.barrettxplore.com] has joined #lisp 04:48:08 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:53:42 -!- kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:53:46 kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 04:54:19 -!- EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 04:56:19 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:59:03 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 05:04:02 I wonder where to find someone with recent experience of using oskit. any ideas? 05:04:30 -!- vhattev [n=Viet@cpe-76-167-220-105.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:08:12 lukego_: recent and oskit, eh? (: What are you up to nowadays (oskit, a picolibc, what else)? 05:08:51 I'm trying to run a C program (runtime system for a programming language) on 'bare metal' i.e. without an operating system 05:09:37 I had been slicing out all the OS-dependencies but now I wonder if it'd be better to link with an OS-like C library 05:13:42 lukego_: At least. The OS provides a huge number of services that a C program will expect to be pressent (think STDOUT, for example). On most processor architectures, you'd need an OS running in supervisor mode to even load your program into userland memory. Effectively, the only way to do what you want would be to write an Operating System, albeit a simple one. Also, this is #lisp. You may be lost. 05:14:20 aja: or he may have coded the initial SLIME. 05:14:59 aja: stdout is no problem, the firmware has support for that and I can use it. I realise it's not entirely on-topic for #lisp but it is actually a Lisp dialect that I'm bringing up so in some sense I'm writing a lispos now 05:15:01 pkhuong: Ah. In which case, he's probably up to the task. :-) 05:15:18 many of my smartest hacker friends are in this channel which is why I'm here :) 05:15:30 lukego_: Ah. Apologies, then. 05:15:34 none needed :) 05:16:31 lukego_: Consider a minimalist embedded Unix kernel and custom init program that effectively is your interpreter? 05:17:47 yeah that's basically the approach. I'm just doing boring stuff now like digging up versions of malloc/strcmp/etc that I can link into the interpreter. and it looks like OSKit is exactly what I need except that it doesn't build for me 05:18:14 lukego_: OK. I'll stop bugging you now. :-) 05:18:33 I'm actually most of the way there with the piece-by-piece approach but just spending a couple of hours to see if I can avoid reinventing the hacky libc and use someone else's "once and for all" solution 05:18:50 but the OSKit research group seems to have disbanded 6 years ago so e.g. their configure script doesn't know about Darwin 05:21:10 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-058-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:08 lukego_: I've worked with uClinux/uClibc/busybox to make systems that effectively run exactly one program (other than the kernel) in a sub-1 Meg footprint that targets a lot of platforms. But that's pretty abandoned, now, too. Don't know much about oskit other than it exists. Might be worth a bit of research on embedded environments for whatever your target platform is. 05:26:15 kami-```` [n=user@p4FD391D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 05:26:26 once I have it up and running the first thing I want to do is take over the hardware and start rewriting drivers in the new language, so I'm a bit worried about introducing kernel-ish things that will insist on e.g. processing interrupts 05:26:51 the target platform is PCs, initially the OLPC XO 05:27:04 aja, it's not the uClinux/uClibc that's abandoned, right? (think montavista still does that) 05:27:05 lukego_: That makes sense. OLPC target is cool idea. 05:27:18 OLPC has excellent Forth-based firmware that's kindof a delight to work with 05:28:42 -!- kami-```` [n=user@p4FD391D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:28:44 kami-```` [n=user@p4FD391D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 05:29:18 lukego_: Sort of a microkernel REPL? 05:29:46 lukego_: and a lispish instead of forth? 05:30:15 pkhuong: yes. there's no point writing a Forth-based OS because it's already been done very well :) 05:30:32 in a free / open / maintained / production way (mitch bradley's openfirmware) 05:30:43 aja: maybe, not sure what you mean :) 05:30:52 mowitz + sicl? 05:31:07 openfirmware is a complete Forth system that implements BIOS-like functionality and boots to an interactive prompt with online compiler and development tools etc. pretty amazing 05:31:16 lukego_: ah, so it's a because i can more than because I need it? 05:31:48 it's a "let's demystify kernel programming by showing that it's bloody easy to do if you have decent tools" 05:33:36 lukego_: Andy Tanenbaum's thing is microkernels - the only things that run in kernel/supervisory mode is what absolutely needs to be there (scheduler, interupt handler, memory management, etc.). Everything else is loaded after boot, and remains in userland, even things like drivers. If you had a lisp interpreter in the microkernel, you could write the drivers,etc. in Lisp. 05:34:58 Kingo [n=Habs@bas2-montreal03-1279344734.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 05:35:10 -!- Kingo [n=Habs@bas2-montreal03-1279344734.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 05:35:42 aja: *in* the ukernel? 05:36:55 pkhuong: Right. Sorry - loaded very early. :-) 05:37:22 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 05:37:29 -!- kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3912A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:39:45 good morning 05:39:54 hello l_a_m 05:39:55 yes the idea is basically microkernel with sexps for IPC 05:41:54 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 05:48:43 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:52:26 Ok, not that anyone cares, but the XHTML documentation for ch-image isn't as blatantly broken as it used to be and 1) now actually builds, 2) has sample images and 3) fixes the bibliography problems, to a first approximation. 05:52:29 http://cyrusharmon.org/static/projects/ch-image/doc/ch-image.xhtml 05:56:28 Has anyone here worked much with Common Music? 05:58:28 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-18-223.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:01:45 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 06:06:04 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 06:07:37 gdmfsob [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 06:07:40 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:08:37 anyone running freebsd? I'd love to know what './configure && make' says on this package: ftp://flux.cs.utah.edu/flux/oskit/oskit-20020317.tar.gz 06:09:27 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:09:55 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.141.150] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:13:03 lukego_: unfortunately, it doesn't like amd64 06:13:53 vhattev [n=Viet@cpe-76-167-220-105.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:14:00 thanks for checking 06:17:20 so, after forcing it into i386, gcc warns on oskit/x86/proc_reg.h:116:15: missing terminating " character 06:18:01 (and then an error in {get,set}_eflags) 06:20:40 MicronXD [n=MicronXD@pool-72-94-26-52.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:48 hi all 06:21:07 -!- DoctorChaotic [n=no@c-67-177-214-28.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:21:07 could someone help me run an x86f file? 06:21:38 MicronXD: That's likely a cmucl fasl. 06:21:45 -!- JustWhie [n=chatzill@c-71-60-93-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:23:20 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:25:03 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 06:25:11 -!- kami-```` [n=user@p4FD391D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:25:14 kami-```` [n=user@p4FD391D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:28:59 pkhuong: yeah they seem to be leaving out a lot of \'s at end-of-line in string literals, that's where it barfs on linux/osx too 06:30:52 -!- kami-```` [n=user@p4FD391D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 06:32:53 okay it seems that gcc recentlyish dropped support for multiline strings (without \ escapes at EOL) 06:33:16 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 06:33:37 That's totally legal, though 06:33:41 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 06:34:13 In the form "String"\n"String2" 06:34:17 Not "String\nString2" 06:34:29 In that case the \n is not part of the string, obviously 06:34:45 But with \ you don't get a newline either, do you? 06:34:52 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 06:35:58 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:37:51 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 06:38:44 Bzek_ [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-30-131.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:39:15 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 06:39:28 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:40:25 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 06:41:17 daniel: the for you mention is not a for, but three forms, A "String", a symbol named "n", and a "String2". 06:41:52 -!- sunwukong [n=salvi@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has quit ["bye"] 06:42:06 pjb: He was talking about gcc, though. 06:42:13 Oh. 06:42:21 Sorry for not declaring off-topic :) 06:42:25 :-) 06:47:22 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.141.150] has joined #lisp 06:54:29 trebor_home [n=trebor@dslb-084-058-250-168.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:58 hello. how can i use collect within initially? 06:55:05 lichtblau [n=user@wallstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 06:55:22 knobo [n=bohmersp@148.122.202.168] has joined #lisp 06:56:08 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-18-223.kosnet.ru] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:56:21 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:56:58 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-85-73.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 06:57:31 sth like (loop for i from 0 to 5 initially collect 'pre-value collect (* i i))? 06:57:41 -!- lichtblau [n=user@wallstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has left #lisp 06:57:43 you cant 06:57:48 can't 06:58:37 trebor_home: do it outside the loop 06:58:57 trebor_home: initially and finally clauses take a list of compound forms, so you can't use other loop keywords in there. 07:00:49 so its like (append (list 'pre-value) (loop ...)), right? 07:01:46 loop scares me in general 07:01:53 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has left #lisp 07:02:02 trebor_home: (list* 'pre-value (loop ...)) 07:02:11 pstickne: why? 07:02:26 jrockway: because it's so complicated and imperative feeling 07:02:44 jrockway: did you come up with a traits example? 07:02:53 ooh, traits? 07:02:59 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:03:13 michaelw: thanks, that is surely better (forgot about list* at all) 07:03:31 (loop for i from 0 to 5 collect (* i i) into sum finally (return (list* 'pre-value sum))) 07:03:33 michaelw: i've talked to the authors of some other implemetations -- nobody has any advice about dealing with multi-dispatch 07:03:53 in perl, we treat traits as functions in the consumer's namespace 07:04:01 so this means they appear first in the class precedence list 07:04:06 but are only specialized to the first argument 07:04:47 jrockway: yeah, I basically concluded there was half a paper in it if one gets the details worked out ;) 07:05:30 i can think of some hacks to get it working 07:06:21 jrockway: do you have a nice traits example, plus some explanations how it works in perl? 07:06:33 yeah 07:07:09 here is how we use them in Moose (we call them roles, cause perl people like to rename things) 07:07:14 http://search.cpan.org/~drolsky/Moose-0.58/lib/Moose/Role.pm 07:07:28 http://search.cpan.org/~drolsky/Moose-0.58/lib/Moose/Cookbook/Roles/Recipe1.pod 07:07:30 knobo: thanks, that is elegant 07:07:55 this is also good: http://use.perl.org/~Stevan/journal/35455 07:08:12 jrockway: thanks, I'll have a look 07:08:30 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:08:33 the first hackish idea i have is to make a new class when applying a trait to a class 07:08:47 knobo: (list* ... (loop ...)) is easier on the eye, YMMV. 07:08:51 where the class has the trait first in the precedence list, and then the consuming class 07:09:03 then (apply-trait) can do the renaming / consistency checking 07:09:05 and we are set 07:09:22 completely untested, since i just thought of it 07:12:22 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:15:02 splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has joined #lisp 07:15:05 morning 07:18:09 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:19:46 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:28:56 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 07:29:26 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.129.215] has joined #lisp 07:29:31 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:30:25 -!- vhattev [n=Viet@cpe-76-167-220-105.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:32:03 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f50c0.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:34:26 bpr [n=user@cpe-72-226-72-222.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:38:07 hello splittist 07:39:40 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:40:24 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 07:40:42 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:47:36 lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:39 H4ns1 [n=hans@72-255-25-145.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:22 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.164.207] has joined #lisp 08:04:11 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-20-69.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:06:02 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:07:07 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 08:10:30 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 08:10:42 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 08:11:45 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.141.150] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:15:17 -!- H4ns [n=hans@72-255-6-32.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:17:40 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:37 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 08:24:47 vy [n=user@88.231.234.96] has joined #lisp 08:38:23 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 08:40:36 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:46:23 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-015-169.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 08:47:34 morning 08:47:55 morning 08:50:26 another day that starts with a lot of weirdness in the lisp channel 08:50:43 what's with all that talk about moose 08:50:50 -!- luis [n=luis@bl6-225-6.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:51:14 that talk about moose had stopped, until you chose to bring it up again 08:51:16 think about it 08:51:32 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:52:46 oh noes 08:52:48 i'm teh moose 08:53:17 we are talking about implementing traits with CLOS 08:53:35 or *for* CLOS, rather 08:53:59 how can i detect the allowed maximum value of :element-type (list 'unsigned-byte n)? for n=1 type-of returns BIT, for n>1 type-of returns (unsigned-byte n)? 08:54:10 Is there any particular reason the arguments to BYTE are the way around they are? Or is there some other way I can make myself remember which way around they go? (I'm not normally a bit-twiddling guy.) 08:54:39 trebor_home: upgraded-array-element-type 08:54:43 jrockway: what are traits? 08:55:07 Xof: thanks, reading 08:55:11 things in a prototype-based object system, like Javascript? (I think) 08:55:38 there are ancient embryonic stubs in PCL for prototype-based dispatch 08:56:06 cYmen: http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~scg/Research/Traits/ 08:56:07 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 08:56:13 basically composable pieces of classes 08:56:24 splittist: no and no (: 08:56:27 very useful, slightly different from mixins 08:57:20 -!- lukego_ [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:57:32 splittist: inverse alphabetical order 08:57:35 splittist: actually, I think it might be pretty intuitive to some (I have to look it up all the time, too). 08:58:38 maybe they're sorted by a pun fitness rating 08:58:48 byte-size is more punny than is byte-position (: 08:59:04 antifuchs, Xof: thanks. I was hoping someone would say "It's been like that since the original Bletchley bombe because the cake tins they used had..." 08:59:05 -!- vy [n=user@88.231.234.96] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:01:47 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:04:23 splittist: or it may help to think of position as an optional argument... could default to 0 and it would still be somewhat useful 09:07:33 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:07:42 Seems to be a CL cleanup, looking at the Pitmanual. 09:07:50 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:08:12 *splittist* wonders about introducing a HAULONG synomym for INTEGER-LENGTH 09:09:04 segv [n=segv@p4FC1D464.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:11 why is this: (array-element-type (make-array (list 3 3 3) :element-type (list 'unsigned-byte 24))) -> (UNSIGNED-BYTE 29)? 09:10:07 implementation detail? 09:10:37 sbcl 1.0.3 09:11:18 trebor_home: Its called Array Upgrading. 09:11:27 clhs 15.1.2.1 09:11:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/15_aba.htm 09:11:30 my sbcl says 31 09:12:08 jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:23 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B4A3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:12:24 but basically, :element-type did what you asked it to do 09:12:32 it can store (unsigned-byte 24)s 09:13:29 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:14:35 how can i distinguish :element-type (list 'unsigned-byte 24) from 29? how can i detect unsigned-byte 24 at all? 09:15:36 trebor_home: I do not really understand your question, but may be you are looking for UPGRADED-ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE. 09:16:44 hm. no, as far as i understand, i am looking for the expressed array element type. 09:17:59 You expressed it when you created the array so you should be able to rember it some way. 09:18:09 i'd like to convert a-class to another. i thought about doing it by creating an instance of another in a :before method and then let methods specified on the different subclasses of a-class fill in the values. good idea? how? no do it this and that way that's how everybody does it..? 09:18:59 trebor_home: (defstruct typed-element-array array element-type) 09:19:36 make-array loses the information about the exact type of the elements. It upgrades it. 09:20:30 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:21:43 ok. thanks. so i need an extra slot for keeping max-val. 09:21:51 Yes. 09:24:04 cYmen: If you want to convert an *instance* from one class to another, there is a chapter on this in the CLHS. 09:24:08 clhs 7.2 09:24:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_b.htm 09:27:57 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:28:15 Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:28:18 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:28:35 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:30:10 Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:41:21 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D43C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:12 mediogre [n=mediogre@88.147.167.157] has joined #lisp 09:46:00 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:46:48 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 09:48:47 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:53:08 nowhere_man [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:57 -!- segv [n=segv@p4FC1D464.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 09:55:20 mb_ [n=mb@p4FC1D464.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:36 -!- mb_ is now known as segv 10:05:46 kmkaplan: sounds wicked...i'll read that thanks 10:07:06 vasa-work [n=None@212.98.167.157] has joined #lisp 10:08:50 luis [n=luis@bl6-225-6.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 10:09:59 o hai luis :) 10:12:35 Stelian 10:13:49 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.194.101] has joined #lisp 10:15:38 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:23:55 I have a fairly simple class for images which I want to convert to the bitmap class I created with gigamonkey's binary-data lib to save it as .bmp 10:24:22 I have two subclasses of said image class for rgb and grayscale images 10:24:48 Does that sound like a case for change-class? 10:26:08 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 10:27:07 not to me 10:28:01 rhickey [n=rhickey@ool-457e4394.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:01 lichtblau: do you have any suggestions? 10:31:25 timor [n=sun@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:31:33 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1D464.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["quit"] 10:32:14 segv [n=mb@p4FC1D464.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:35 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 10:35:00 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:35:20 write a function that takes the "simple class for images" as an argument and returns a "bitmap class I created with gigamonkey's binary-data lib" ? 10:35:37 none that wouldn't help raise the perceived #lisp age from friendly 32.5 to grumpy 50 10:36:03 lichtblau: if it's any help i'd still like to here it :) 10:36:15 jrockway: how would i then fill in the details that depend on the specific subclass? 10:36:23 specialize the method? 10:36:35 :around modifiers and all that 10:37:16 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 10:37:17 shall i paste an example? 10:37:20 jrockway: how would i pass the object that is created in the first of these methods to the others to fill in the rest? 10:37:42 that would be great :) 10:37:49 hmmm 10:38:58 ok, i think i know... let me test :) 10:43:31 I'm feeling a bit like a newb here because I can't work this out. How do I jump from the paren under the cursor to the matching one in emacs? 10:43:45 C-M-b? 10:44:00 sorry, -p 10:44:13 awesome, thanks 10:44:32 this makes editting lisp code significantly faster heh 10:44:37 navigating it anyway 10:46:27 qebab: There's also show-paren-mode 10:46:42 M-x show-paren-mode 10:46:47 yeah, that's essential 10:46:49 for more than just lisp 10:47:07 cYmen: pasting now 10:47:07 tcr: yeah, I have that one enabled all the time 10:48:23 jrockway pasted "converting stuff" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67603 10:54:35 jrockway: looks like a good idea :) 10:55:09 thank you! 10:55:30 clos is flexible :) 10:56:55 no need for :around there 10:57:10 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 10:58:39 ah, ok 10:58:46 *jrockway* learned CLOS from AMOP 10:58:53 amop? 10:58:59 -!- lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:59:03 in whatever lisp AMOP uses, you can't "apply" generic functions either 10:59:12 that is like learning how to drive by studying how cars work! 10:59:13 :) 10:59:29 http://www.cliki.net/AMOP 10:59:32 morning H4ns :) 10:59:59 but yeah, AMOP convinced me to start using Lisp 11:00:11 i read it so i could work on perl's MOP (Class::MOP) 11:00:18 b82rez [n=b82rez@adsl-145-117.romerikebb.no] has joined #lisp 11:01:10 heh, after removing the :around, the example works in elisp too 11:01:11 didn't know about that * syntax either...does that always refer to the last object in the repl? 11:01:16 yeah 11:01:18 *, **, *** 11:02:14 interesting 11:02:27 you can cut-n-paste results and use them as values also 11:02:31 slime magically makes that work 11:02:40 you might need to turn on "fancy" for that 11:03:10 you do have, or alternatively just the slime-presentations contrib 11:03:48 SetQ [n=setq@ip78-36-48-104.onego.ru] has joined #lisp 11:05:43 *H4ns* just installed rt3 on the new common-lisp.net - we'll be gettting rather fancy :) 11:06:40 -!- SetQ [n=setq@ip78-36-48-104.onego.ru] has left #lisp 11:06:47 :} 11:07:14 third revision of RT, the Regression Tester? 11:07:14 H4ns: what's rt3 ? 11:07:24 rt, the request tracker 11:07:45 the new rt is pretty nice 11:07:47 so in the future, instead of installing git in your home directory, send email and we'll take care of that. 11:08:04 just don't read the source code 11:08:12 jrockway: from what i have seen, it is yet another clumsy web application. 11:08:27 jrockway: not quite as ugly as bugzilla, but so web 1.0 11:08:44 yeah, exactly 11:08:58 from the era where people didn't realize that you shouldn't do database queries in your HTML template 11:09:33 also stuff like, "Logged in as: <% connect to ldap server; retrive username; ... %>" 11:09:54 yeah, from the era where people thought it would be okay to enter data into forms and then scroll pages down to find and click the submit button. 11:10:24 as opposed to? 11:10:27 but hey, to quote a regular here: "html is a proper way to do user interfaces in common lisp" 11:10:34 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-168.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:10:43 jrockway: as opposed to browser applications written in javascript. 11:10:50 i wish users could use a REPL 11:10:57 jrockway: _that_ would help! 11:10:59 (make-instance 'user-account :username "jrockway" ...) 11:11:08 so much easier for the programmer ;) 11:11:33 (exit) 11:11:37 oops 11:11:41 manuel_: :D 11:11:55 (post-to-blog #P :title OH HAI) 11:11:56 etc. 11:11:59 i can dream... 11:12:14 haha jrockway i did that for a while 11:12:27 but i finally got xml-rpc to work 11:12:28 :} 11:12:38 -!- alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:12:40 actually, that is how i post to my blog 11:12:43 copy file to directory. done. 11:12:44 there's a "new common-lisp.net"? 11:13:13 kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 11:16:52 Does anyone know adeht's email address? 11:18:55 nowhere_man [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:03 lichtblau: yes. drewc, gwking and i are in the process of migrating to a new machine. 11:19:23 lichtblau: which has separate file systems for /, /var, /tmp, /project and /home 11:24:54 nice 11:28:13 xbxbxb [n=xb@p54ABDB25.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:17 Does SBCL work on OpenBSD? 11:29:01 http://www.elsasser.org/openbsd/sbcl.html 11:29:54 -!- timor [n=sun@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 11:31:14 it is admittedly the first google result for "openbsd sbcl" 11:32:11 jrockway: thanks, but when I'm googling for the very same phrase your page isn't even in the first 10 :/ 11:32:33 google hates you i guess :) 11:32:50 it does say "Personalized based on your web history." at the top of mine 11:33:58 -!- vasa-work [n=None@212.98.167.157] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:34:19 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 11:34:25 trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 11:34:48 vasa-work [n=None@212.98.167.157] has joined #lisp 11:35:36 Can I compile a SBCL that only supports standard-char and iso-8859 ? will there be a speed up in the IO? 11:38:39 vy [n=user@88.231.234.96] has joined #lisp 11:38:44 Declaring some stuff to be base-string may do that even if unicode is available 11:39:00 huangjs: yes, remove the :sb-unicode feature 11:39:20 hm...hey i'd like that how do i turn it on? :) 11:39:52 huangjs: what are you trying to do? 11:40:00 maybe i should install some newer sbcl than that .11 ubuntu considers stable 11:40:23 can somebody with SERIES install run this, please: (let ((nums (scan-range :below 4))) (values (collect-first nums) (collect (subseries nums 1)))) 11:40:35 you turn it _off_ by removing the :sb-unicode feature at build-time 11:40:45 follow the instructions in INSTALL or BUILD or whatever the file is 11:40:57 (it's INSTALL) 11:41:06 thanks 11:41:11 michaelw: 3, (1 2 3) 11:41:38 fe[nl]ix: thanks; it should print 0, (1 2 3), I think 11:42:40 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:43:14 and it does print 0, (0 1 2 3), if you replace the SUBSERIES call with NUMS 11:43:54 How much penalty is there using (with-open-file (... :element-type 'base-char) ...) on #+sb-unicode compared to #-sb-unicode? 11:44:32 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-164-83.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 11:45:46 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:45:54 hm base-char seems to be ascii only, I misrembered that 11:46:36 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:49 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 11:48:34 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 11:49:18 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:49:26 tcr: I have vage recollections that base-char is slower than (unsigned-byte 8) 11:49:52 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:50:14 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:52:08 FufieToo [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:52:36 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:52:58 bah, this is so broken :( 11:53:05 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has left #lisp 11:55:02 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-122-30.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:56:32 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:58:46 -!- FufieToo is now known as Fufie 12:02:03 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-164-83.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 12:05:27 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5494EF7B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:49 rootzlevel [n=hp@91-66-191-98-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:11:16 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:11:20 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:11:42 feagondpt [n=pedro@89.181.37.16] has joined #lisp 12:12:29 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-106-21.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:12:59 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 12:14:41 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 12:14:51 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 12:15:16 -!- me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:16:18 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-164-83.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:17:23 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-161-61.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 12:21:13 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-6-48.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:21:16 -!- mediogre [n=mediogre@88.147.167.157] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:21:29 good afternoon 12:22:26 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:25:06 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:25:14 Hi, beach. 12:26:14 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-122-30.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:30:31 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 12:30:38 -!- kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:660:3003:8:0:0:4:68] has quit ["leaving"] 12:31:10 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:31:19 adeht: Hi, are you there? 12:31:34 hey 12:32:29 adeht: Could you tell me your email address in a privmsg, please? 12:34:18 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 12:37:01 user__ [n=user@p549237C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:34 *user__* was just curious if someone maybe had vecto code (or any other lisp lib) to draw the european borders (i'd like to create a report with new colors, so existing maps...) 12:43:13 user__: i wish i had code to do that. i would love to make cool maps with vecto. 12:43:45 *Xach* has a half-baked library for reading ESRI shapefiles, would love a library for processing SVG path data 12:44:33 uxell [n=u@dslb-084-056-163-080.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:42 -!- dtulig [n=dtulig@cpe-70-112-7-197.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:47:05 -!- grnman [n=grnman@c-76-110-165-179.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:49:51 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:54:13 Xach: you should open a business writing libraries (seriously) 12:54:49 cYmen: that would be great, if i could afford to pay myself for it 12:54:57 since i seem to be the primary consumer of my own libraries 12:54:58 haha 12:55:10 that's because you don't write them in java! 12:55:33 Sun writes great Java libraries and gives them away free. 12:55:48 Java2d is way better than I could ever make vecto! 12:55:55 Xach writes great Lisp libraries and gives them away free. 12:56:06 uh, writing good libraries in java seems like premature optimization to me :) 12:56:15 :D 12:56:21 Yeah, but Sun also gets some side benefit when more people use Java... 12:56:22 another t-shirt! 12:56:57 *Xach* actually had a ZPNG user send a helpful pixel-at-a-time patch recently, though 12:57:15 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 12:57:24 start another commercial lisp company 12:57:35 each user of lisp should be able to be the only user of at least 2 commercial lisps 12:57:42 lichtblau: hey, http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/cl-plus-ssl-devel/2008-June/000061.html solved a t-g-s clisp problem for me...is there any chance it will make it into a release? 12:57:54 jrockway: lol 12:58:05 Xach Common Lisp, or XCL 12:58:14 heh 12:58:20 there is xcl already 12:58:22 try to break it in arbitrary subtle ways 12:58:38 so that users won't be able to port from xcl to sbcl 12:58:44 that's bad for business, after all 12:59:18 hnaz: ooops. i guess i'll call it Cool Common Lisp, or CCL. 12:59:31 IIRC that is already the case... xcl was meant to be cl-inspired (: 12:59:34 Xach: at my current rate of progress, I'll finish making releases of all my libraries sometime next year 12:59:50 lichtblau: how can i help you, brother? i would love for clisp to work with zs3 out of the box. 13:00:15 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:00:29 speedy binary common lisp? 13:00:30 try your luck with any of rschlatte,charmon,hhubner instead? 13:00:33 :) 13:00:40 eek. i guess it's close to next year. 13:01:01 silenius [n=jl@p5B25C26A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:33 -!- pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:01:56 jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:02:32 H4ns1 [n=hans@c-71-232-4-167.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:38 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-161-61.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:02:47 Why, hello, H4ns! 13:03:01 Do you feel motivated to patch and release trivial-gray-streams sometime? 13:03:18 *user__* thinks that geo data systems seem to do not care about border countries.. after all thats a good thing, so i will focus on cities instead 13:04:48 H4ns2 [n=hans@63.107.91.105] has joined #lisp 13:04:58 -!- H4ns [n=hans@72-255-25-145.client.stsn.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:05:00 -!- H4ns2 is now known as H4ns 13:09:18 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@c-71-232-4-167.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:09:52 also, it urgently needs a test suite 13:09:57 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:10:27 *Xach* feels motivation slipping away at the mention of "test suite" 13:10:48 dkcl [n=Dan6688@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 13:11:00 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 13:11:02 begin by writing your own testing environment - it is fun because it is so easy to do in lisp! 13:11:21 my test environment is ZS3, and trivial-gray-streams fails! 13:11:36 sadly i wrote my own testing environment for emacs 13:11:50 H4ns: the context is the patch at http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/cl-plus-ssl-devel/2008-June/000061.html 13:12:06 H4ns: it fixes my ZS3 problem on clisp, and i was wondering if it would make it into a released trivial-gray-streams 13:12:27 (defun is (a b msg) (if (eql a b) (format t "ok - ~A~%") (format t "not ok - ~A~%"))) 13:12:34 very perlish :P 13:13:04 then i decided that since no other emacs libraries have tests, i don't have to write any either 13:13:10 "i know it works" 13:13:55 i've found it a little interesting that there are a number of recent lisp enthusiasts who came over from test-first cultures, who start every program with a very extensive test suite. 13:14:14 *Xach* finds it a little hard to read 13:14:23 to their credit, it is a good way to figure out what you are trying to write 13:14:57 I'm not a fan of test-first cultures as such, but I don't feel like playing patch ping-pong with Edi every time trivial-gray-streams is broken either. 13:14:59 jrockway: slime has tests 13:15:13 very nice 13:15:21 run "make check" in your emacs source directory some time 13:15:25 "emacs has no tests yet" 13:15:27 nice. 13:15:50 i shouldn't complain... but i will... i like how the same bug keeps re-emerging every few weeks on emacs-devel 13:15:54 some unicode font-handling thing 13:15:57 lispmeister [n=fix@kepler.de.swissrisk.com] has joined #lisp 13:16:56 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:17:20 -!- lispmeister [n=fix@kepler.de.swissrisk.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:17:47 the coverage of slime's test suite is not really big, though. It, however, makes sure that most stuff works. 13:18:02 pok [n=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 13:18:09 -!- dkcl [n=Dan6688@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:18:30 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f50c0.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:18:53 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:19:58 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:20:17 tcr: slime has some problems with regards to backwards compatibility of use. for a long time I tried to keep up with it, sometimes working around new behavior. not long ago I decided to just stop upgrading. 13:21:24 i am close to doing that for the emacs core 13:21:30 "let's make emacs like a windows app by default" 13:21:40 jrockway: I already did that with emacs. 13:21:42 i'm pretty sure my .emacs is longer than the emacs source code as a result :P 13:22:00 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 13:22:21 a good model for backwards compatibility in use is git. 13:22:36 true 13:22:43 new features show up, but old stuff continues to work 13:23:04 but git interaction is much simpler than either emacs or slime.. 13:23:31 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 13:23:53 AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:24:22 adeht: I don't care much about backwards compatibility of use. It'd make it even more monstrous than it already is. 13:25:34 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 13:26:16 Saying that, what are the changes that pop into your mind? 13:29:45 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:46 there are many small, irritating ones.. I suppose one change that really got to me is also not very recent. it's the show-maximum-output thingy. I very much dislike it. another one was changing the `C-c C-t' keybinding. more recent ones don't come to mind right now. 13:31:41 i hear you can rebind keys in emacs ;) 13:31:49 jrockway: that's exactly what I did. 13:32:10 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:32:29 I was a fond user of C-c C-t in the repl, but I think the new binding makes sense and i have embraced it. 13:32:47 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@68.237.108.176] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:33:28 I sometimes embrace the new changes, too.. for example, when `C-c C-q' was removed, I started using `C-c C-]'. 13:33:40 -!- user__ [n=user@p549237C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 13:34:06 but it's frustrating that in the middle of a programming session you discover something changed under your nose. 13:34:36 adeht: i agree, and it is difficult to trace the rationale and context of the change unless you follow slime development closely 13:35:03 Xach: even then, the rationale is usually just the preference of a slime developer. 13:35:34 *Xach* wonders about a changelog-to-rss pipeline 13:35:55 *jrockway* is wayyy too good at working around things, so he doesn't usually mind changes 13:36:00 so, I don't complain about these changes, but I just stop chasing slime's HEAD. 13:36:02 I want to resurrect the NEWS file for user-visible changes 13:36:09 on a recent app i wrote, i worked around some bug in my own library 13:36:15 because i was too lazy to cd to it and fix the bug 13:36:16 :D 13:37:48 jrockway: i'd be ashamed of that and not tell anybody... 13:38:30 The best thing if something doesn't suit you, is to send a mail to the mailing list, and show that you care. Or ask me here. 13:38:34 adeth: I'm with Xach on the C-c C-t thing, took a week or so for the muscle memory to adapt, and I like that tracing is now more consistently reachable 13:38:59 It's not like it doesnt affect me, I'm really annoying by that aggressive inspector truncating that was introduced recently. 13:39:03 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:04 annoyed even 13:40:18 michaelw: it was just an example of breaking compatibility.. that particular one is easy to workaround if you don't care to adapt to it, but others aren't that much. 13:41:03 I've said it multiple times, but Slime is a like a very CL-specific .emacs that happens to be hacked on by plenty of people. Breaking compatibility is one point where this shows, another is the code itself. 13:41:39 adeht: In principle, with the introduction of contribs, the base system is supposed not to change drastically anymore. 13:41:50 muahaha 13:42:53 well, what I like in git development is that many things are screened via the mailing list before they are applied; might be that this works better with more developers, though. 13:43:29 tcr: if that was a goal, I think it didn't achieve it. I think the purpose of contribs was to have a minimalistic slime that suits some of the slime devs. 13:43:43 I agree. 13:44:00 tcr: which now can make changes that break if you load contribs they don't. 13:44:27 slime's mailing list tone is rather aggressive. Does not suit everyone. 13:46:09 tcr: on the other hand, I recognize that it's still reasonable to change things like that, because not that many people use slime. it reminds me of the old story about `make' and makefile syntax. 13:46:37 *Xach* is often reminded of that when it comes to Lisp software 13:47:31 Is the ISO process as costly as ANSI? 13:48:05 even more so, as iso is international. 13:48:11 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:48:17 perhaps ECMA is cheaper 13:49:00 brandelune [n=JC@pl051.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:49:03 the suggested costs for ANSI CL was based on on a notion of time == money, and I got the impression that the time-based money part was the largest chunk of the total cost. But if so, aren't there people who would actually be glad to work in a standardization commitee for free. 13:49:10 no 13:49:20 ECMA Slime? 13:49:26 Lisp culture, i.e. the culture around the MIT and Stanford labs, has always been a small circle of people who know each other, hack away, and talk about their changes when going out eating chinese food. The language reflects that culture, and makes it very easy to just hack away, I think. 13:50:01 splittist: I wanted to make a joke involving "ECTO", but failed 13:50:12 arc is a good example of that 13:50:15 it is great for pg and his friends 13:50:21 everyone else... well, i think i will stick to CL 13:52:16 tcr: I would think that with a bit more effort, some of core slime could be generalized, and the otherwise core changes could appear as contribs. 13:52:21 mmh, perhaps we should look into marrying J and SWANK ;) 13:52:30 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:52:37 maybe what really is needed is more such groups of people who are successful with their personal lisp. it could be that at some point, some commercial entity is interested enough in lisp to fund the next standardization round. 13:52:49 tcr: though I admit that I didn't really think about that. 13:53:04 Specifically, I was thinking about Pascal's CDR and the notes is beach's SICL. 13:53:16 adeht: I think it's possible. I don't think it'll happen. 13:53:21 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-227.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:54:13 http://xach.com/tmp/slime.html <-- rough slime contributor graph 13:54:52 if somebody's personal lisp becomes a success, it's much more likely to revert to the benevolent dictator model than stimulate standardization 13:55:11 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:55:31 benevolent dictator is just a very small standardization commitee 13:55:32 after all, that's what people who want a new standard really mean: they want a single canonical implementation with its canonical ffi, socket api, thread api, etc 13:55:40 jsnell: i'm not saying that one personal lisp is to become a success, but multiple. 13:55:50 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 13:56:11 *Xach* wonders about ECMA Clojarc 13:56:12 kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:660:3003:8:0:0:4:68] has joined #lisp 13:56:13 xach: pretty 13:56:36 true...very pretty...how did you make that xach? 13:57:02 cYmen: it's an adaptation of the movie chart software. 13:57:25 *Xof* finds himself 13:57:30 I don't think there's enough room in the ecosystem for multiple "personal lisps" to become succesful enough to matter 13:57:32 i just compiled a package file and got a message that "package also exports the following symbols" how is that caused? do i have to mark symbols that should not be exported or something? 13:57:54 Xach: movie chart software? 13:57:54 hey, I topped the bill in Apr 2006 13:57:58 how the mighty have fallen, etc 13:58:10 he says modestly 13:58:12 cYmen: mixing EXPORT in source with an incomplete DEFPACKAGE is one way 13:58:23 cYmen: the stuff that generated http://xach.com/moviecharts/ 13:58:50 looking at it right now..it's great 13:58:55 instead of movies, i charted cvs commits. 13:59:07 hm...export in source? don't think i ever did that 13:59:27 cYmen: it just means your defpackage says something different than the running lisp's notion of the package 13:59:38 cYmen: that can happen in many ways, like editing the defpackage form and removing an export. 13:59:57 http://xach.com/charts/ has some cmucl and sbcl charts, too. 14:00:11 tic: working on a standardization committee is hard work, and requires someone with a lot of technical knowledge and a lot of experience in the domain. Those are usually the same people who hold positions of responsability in companies or universities, and so they have essentially zero time for such work. The only way they can do it would be if their employer would be willing to pay them for that work. 14:00:58 kohwj [n=di@bb116-15-145-147.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:01:05 beach, and the chances of finding people with said skill set and experience that have spare time is close to nil? 14:01:17 tic: I would think so. 14:01:20 effective de jure standardization also presupposes a de facto standard ;) 14:01:22 tic: people with skills are usually in demand :) 14:01:34 Good point. 14:04:56 but, it seems SBCL is keeping up with CDR. 14:05:33 Let's say it takes 5-10 years to come up with a decent standard. The things people ("they") would like standards for seem to be sockets, threads and web stuff. How much of that is likely to be the same in 5-10years + useful life of the standard? (Sockets, maybe.) 14:06:06 I was thinking unicode, the issues that need to be fixed, and more CLOSification 14:06:18 splittist: I was about to say something very similar. 14:06:27 splittist: i hope that sockets will be gone by then. 14:06:48 (I estimate that a standardised approach to multilingual issues might be possible before the heat-death of the universe, but I wouldn't bet on it...) 14:06:50 "keeping up with cdr", ha 14:07:08 yeah 14:07:12 _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:07:24 there are, what, three CDRs? And we implement one 14:07:24 and I wrote that one 14:07:27 "wow" 14:07:35 no, we implement two! 14:07:43 awesome, we rock 14:07:44 since the mop is a cdr... 14:07:54 aha 14:08:11 I'm glad that my contribution is structurally equivalent with the MOP :-) 14:08:33 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-227.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 14:08:37 -!- brandelune [n=JC@pl051.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:08:43 (equalp Xof Kiczales)... 14:09:06 error: too many dots 14:09:06 their name look almost similar.. => T 14:09:07 wouldn't it be eq? 14:09:35 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-227.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:09:55 sykopomp: nope, eq is abstraction-leakage identity 14:10:09 has anyone ever seen me and Gregor in the same room together? 14:10:10 ... 14:10:11 I rest my case 14:10:37 lispmeister [n=fix@kepler.de.swissrisk.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:41 -!- lispmeister [n=fix@kepler.de.swissrisk.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:10:57 In a neoplatinist universe, perhaps. But then (eq X Y) => t would be trivially true. 14:11:11 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 14:11:19 The Good 14:11:32 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:11:36 speaking of CDRs, who would like to write up a CDR for package extensions (versions + aliases). 14:11:47 s/./?/ 14:11:58 what CDR are we talking about here? I think I'm missing something... 14:12:00 I'd prefer someone to implement something that people are generally happy with first 14:12:17 sykopomp: the Common Lisp Document Repository. 14:12:21 ah 14:12:25 Xof: indeed 14:12:29 silent "L" 14:12:32 Xof: I think that's what all the standardization mongers miss 14:12:40 not really 14:12:49 the standardization mongers have a point that there's a bootstrapping problem 14:13:16 Xof: I think the two processes must evolve in parallel. 14:13:34 they are trying to cut the knot of having to have a de facto standard before de jure, with a vendor community that does not desire de facto standards 14:13:45 alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has joined #lisp 14:14:00 but I think writing up something that exists (but is not de facto standard) is better than something that doesn't exist at all 14:14:05 Xof: how come? first step: contribute to your favourite implementation. second step: see it being used and implemented in other implementations. third step: standardize. 14:14:12 step 2 never happens 14:14:56 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@pool-71-112-124-144.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 14:15:16 Xof: so implement it yourself in various implementations. 14:15:37 um, why? 14:16:00 oh, not me myself but someone who thinks this will help 14:16:00 Xof: because "you" are a standard monger, of course. 14:16:01 what if they cannot? 14:16:15 Xof: bitch about it in your blog. 14:16:32 yeah, but another way would be to have a standard that you could beat vendors with 14:16:39 which is why I say that these mongers have a point 14:16:50 *sykopomp* would rather just see 2-3 implementations be sort-of-de-facto standards. Doesn't like this whole catering-to-10-implementations thing. 14:17:04 milos_ [n=milos@92.36.140.23] has joined #lisp 14:17:23 how did C get around it anyways? There's a bunch of compilers for it, right? 14:17:31 sykopomp: that's the difference between you and the Department of Defence, I guess. 14:17:33 sbcl for apps, ecl for embedding. sorry abcl. 14:18:50 Xof: but a standard requires participation of at least some of those vendors, and they have no good reason to participate, because it's all unimplemented hot air. 14:19:15 I thought we agreed that it was implemented once 14:19:19 in your step 1 14:19:45 tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2E221.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:59 I am trying to explain that people are worried about step 2, step 1 having been achieved 14:20:34 Xof: ok, so we at least agree about step 1. 14:20:42 um, yes 14:20:54 which bit of "step 2 never happens" was not clear? 14:22:03 Xof: I'm not much of a prophet anyway. but these standard mongers don't come close to step 1 either. 14:23:30 Xof: all they do is whine about "choice" and the Lisp community and such. it's really sickening. 14:23:30 I'm not a prophet either; I'm talking about my 10 years or so of experience 14:23:35 antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-d6e623666e92a0ac] has joined #lisp 14:24:37 Xof: standards take time ;) 14:29:22 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.194.101] has joined #lisp 14:31:01 -!- rread [n=rread@c-76-21-116-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:32:21 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 14:32:29 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.194.101] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:09 user__ [n=user@p549237C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:13 v3rt [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:36:32 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 14:36:39 *rvirding* says hello everyone 14:36:47 hi 14:41:24 hello rvirding 14:42:33 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:43:59 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:45:41 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:14 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 14:48:36 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-015-169.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has quit [] 14:54:44 -!- v3rt [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:54:52 nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:23 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:58:40 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:59:00 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:59:31 nullwork_ [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:41 -!- gdmfsob [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:01:10 *Xach* zaps a number of planet lisp blogs with empty sparklines 15:02:42 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbd15d.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 15:04:18 *Xach* vainly creates http://l1sp.org/xach/project-howto 15:04:22 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-058-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:05:34 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:06:16 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 15:06:26 *splittist* breathes sigh of relief, tries to think of something to blog about. 15:07:17 *sykopomp* thinks haxing is probably more productive. 15:08:28 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:30 without planet lisp the hacks would be in vain 15:08:53 lemonodor tumblr fame is but a hack away! 15:09:50 lemonodor twitter fame is really where it's at 15:10:19 15:10:19 nobody reads lemonodor anymore, now that the beyonce and jay z thread is dead 15:10:31 exactly 15:10:43 *rvirding* says goodbye for now 15:10:47 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 15:13:40 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 15:13:50 -!- milos_ [n=milos@92.36.140.23] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:17:34 ths [n=ths@p549AEFA9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:27 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:25:29 schasi [n=schasi@p54A270BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:00 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:38 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:31:46 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 15:33:21 -!- antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-d6e623666e92a0ac] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:33:32 is there any way to get the line number where something went wrong? 15:33:49 i keep getting debugger invoked on a TYPE-ERROR in thread #: The value # is not of type STRING. 15:33:53 but doesn't tell me where. 15:34:08 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1C480.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:14 bougyman: in slime, you'd hit enter on the frame that interest you and see the source. 15:34:24 if you compiled with high enough debug, typing 'v' on the frame brings you there 15:34:27 bougyman: but as you can't use slime, you can't have that. 15:34:32 antgreen [n=green@localhostlocaldomain.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:09 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1D464.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:10 oh yeah, it is 'v' not enter 15:35:25 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:35:50 _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:36:59 bougyman: you should pass nil, t or a stream to format and then pass the string 15:37:51 Karpar [i=karpar@2001:da8:8000:d010:0:5efe:7dd9:f6d9] has joined #lisp 15:38:30 bougyman: since you are a vimmer, you need to figure out how to get to the source from vim. 15:39:27 i can see the source. 15:39:37 the exact source that caused the error. 15:39:47 ah, yes. does the repl not tell you that? 15:39:53 sometimes it does, but this time it does not. 15:40:10 bougyman: it can be found with the repl. you could look at how slime itself does its magic, and use that technique. 15:40:25 http://jsnell.iki.fi/blog/archive/2007-12-19-pretty-sbcl-backtraces.html 15:40:31 bougyman: How can I it know which line of a file an exception belongs to? I might have typed (error 'foo) to the REPL, in that case what will the file and line number look like? 15:41:17 *Xach* ponders a set of l1sp.org jsnell redirects 15:41:23 vy: it should know that it's in the function (error) at least, no? 15:41:42 bougyman: backtrace should tell that. 15:42:21 You can get a line number out of it? 15:42:29 *sykopomp* reads 15:42:33 bougyman: Associating the exceptions with related lines of code is (generally) the obligation of the editor in CL. And catching an exception and displaying the backtrace also becomes the work of editor in this case. 15:42:39 sykopomp: no, but the function. 15:43:25 I ended up really liking lisp's backtraces once i got used to them >_> 15:43:34 i did backtrace 10 , so the last function it's in must have the type-error? 15:43:48 i'm used to seeing the code around the error, is all. 15:43:51 i'll get used to this. 15:44:06 hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 15:44:16 -!- kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:44:18 and the numbering is asc instead of desc, i was reading that wrong. 15:44:27 1: (SB-C::%COMPILE-TIME-TYPE-ERROR (#) STRING #)[:EXTERNAL] 15:44:30 2: (MPD::READ-UNTIL-DONE #) 15:44:50 that means mpd::read-until-done had the compile-time-error, yes? 15:45:02 bougyman: that's what it looks like to me. 15:45:19 bougyman: you should get details about where when you compile it. 15:46:55 persi: hey, do you think ZS3 might be of any use to you? 15:47:00 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:47:12 persi: you're the only other lisp person i know who actually uses AWS 15:48:04 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:48:15 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:49:00 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm73.sigma230.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:49:45 _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:50:21 dlowe: i didn't know that you already looked at that java time lib. seems like you are ahead, which is good because i don't know when i can get back to working on our remote OSS dependencies... 15:50:22 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 15:51:05 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:51:28 luckily the highest entry on my TODO in this regard, namely cleaning up and integrating cl-l10n with local-time is progressing... 15:51:48 -!- antgreen [n=green@localhostlocaldomain.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:52:17 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:52:24 antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-6dd910b268865a17] has joined #lisp 15:54:18 jsnell: that requires a swank backend, no? 15:54:36 bougyman: you can load swank without using slime. 15:54:42 jsnell: that's not available in mainstream vim yet, unfortunately. i've been waiting for swank bindings to make it into vim-stable 15:54:54 you need not connect vim to it. 15:55:54 egn [n=egn@c-24-15-54-241.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:56 -!- kohwj [n=di@bb116-15-145-147.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:00:26 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-108-78.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:31 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 16:03:17 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:06:06 rread [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has joined #lisp 16:07:28 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:07:33 hmm, what let me not even consider vim for lisp coding was the lack of a repl inside vim 16:12:20 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [] 16:13:15 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 16:14:55 uxell: maybe I would have had a different opinion had I been using vim for a long time, but it feels strange to me that people are willing to learn a different programming language in order to make their programming task easier, but they are not willing to learn a new editor for the same reason, and continue to suffer with tools that are not adapted to the language. 16:15:32 -!- MicronXD [n=MicronXD@pool-72-94-26-52.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:15:35 uxell: that might be a feature, in the correct alternate universe where your lisp has a nice terminal based repl and debugger 16:16:34 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-227.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 16:16:54 *Xach* had a dream about making a nice sbcl terminal ui 16:17:02 I would have understood better if vim users would simply abandon Lisp altogether. 16:17:11 *hefner* had a dream about making a nice graphical ui =/ 16:17:41 Xach: I think a text-based CLIM backend would be a reasonable solution to that. 16:18:48 bertus [n=po@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:19:12 What does this mean? "Free reference to undeclared variable FN1 assumed special. 16:19:13 " 16:19:26 I've got a problem with higher-ordered functions.. 16:19:30 bertus: that you tried to assign to a variable that you haven't established a binding for 16:19:41 bertus: probably that you are referring to a variable that is not bound. 16:19:42 beach: probably not for me specifically 16:19:42 err, or in fact tried to reference it 16:20:09 bertus: how about pasting the code? 16:20:15 minion: tell bertus about lisppaste 16:20:16 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 16:20:28 or you have a typo :) 16:20:35 bert pasted "traverse" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67612 16:20:39 *Xach* gets ready to catch the train for the meeting 16:20:49 Xach, will it hurt? 16:20:54 shouldn't 16:20:54 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:20:56 you going? 16:21:02 (car (read-from-string "`(asdf ,*terminal-io*)")) in sbcl returns SB-IMPL::BACKQ-LIST, is there a portable way to handle quasiquotes pre-evaluation? 16:21:04 bertus: typo. you meant fun1 but typed fn1 16:21:04 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:21:07 what does that mean for my code? http://paste.lisp.org/display/67612 16:21:12 bertus: fn1 is not bound 16:21:27 yeah, what does that mean? 16:21:33 herbieB: The portable solution would be to use your own reader. 16:21:39 it works for another function I wrote like that.. 16:21:42 Xach, ... pun on "catch the train" ^_^ 16:21:58 bertus: what do you mean by the reference to fn1? 16:22:10 tcr: Hmmm, I think that's probably more aggressive than I'm willing to be right now :P 16:22:11 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:22:15 dcrawford: i already caught a cold. a train should be nothing. 16:22:29 bertus: it's when you use an undeclared (through let for instance) variable in a function. your lisp then goes and assumes it's been declared or soon-to-be declared in the top level as special (you could read that as "global") variable 16:22:35 *Xach* departs, looks forward to the spotty wifi on the train 16:22:36 herbieB: Not at all. Take a look at cl-quasi-quote 16:23:17 on line 4 I want to make that function call simply, with argument bt. on line 9 and 10 I want to send the functions as parameters for the recursive calls to traverse.. 16:23:25 tcr: Ah, thanks. WIll look into that one. 16:23:44 bertus: but which function does fn1 refer to? 16:24:11 it's an argument to traverse, a higher-order function sent as an argument 16:24:18 bertus: no it isn't 16:24:31 bertus: the arguments to traverse are named fun1 and fun2 16:24:51 -!- rhickey [n=rhickey@ool-457e4394.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 16:25:13 bertus: do you see the difference between `fn1' and `fun1'? 16:25:46 Ah, I'm sorry. Thanks! =) 16:25:47 bertus: that's what dcrawford told you some 20 exchanges ago. 16:25:53 bertus: in other words: you might have just mistyped "fun1" 16:26:04 yeah =) 16:26:34 and that's the danger with shrt vrbl names 16:26:59 wht u mean? ;) 16:27:23 uxell: hm: attdwsvn 16:27:43 So you are believers of using idx, jdx, kdx? 16:27:59 kjbrock [n=brock@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:04 are those registers? :) 16:28:14 *dlowe* uses thing-idx 16:28:26 I'm a believer in editors with code completion 16:29:37 bighouse [n=bighouse@x-132-204-242-155.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:29:46 and pychic debugging of lisp wins again! 16:30:09 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:30:23 -!- antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-6dd910b268865a17] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:30:24 is #'butlast called a function reference? 16:30:25 never leave your crystal ball unplugged 16:30:48 bertus: #'butlast is a shorthand for (function 'butlast) 16:30:51 clhs function 16:30:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm 16:30:56 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:32:17 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:32:18 yes, but is that a reference to a function? when you use the "function" keyword 16:33:37 bertus: "function" is not a keyword, it is a special form and returns the object that represents the code of the function associated with the given name. 16:34:19 minion: tell bertus about that-dead-sexy-book 16:34:30 practical common lisp =) 16:34:37 bertus: a symbol in CL can refer to a function or a value. (function ) makes your CL look up the function associated with 16:34:38 bertus: please look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 16:34:49 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D43C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:34:53 I'm reading it right now.. 16:34:54 =) 16:34:59 -!- H4ns [n=hans@63.107.91.105] has left #lisp 16:35:12 H4ns [n=hans@63.107.91.105] has joined #lisp 16:35:36 h4ns: (function butlast) :) 16:36:00 envi_home2 [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 16:36:56 H4ns: (let ((butlast 'butlast)) (function butlast)) 16:37:00 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:37:04 -!- envi_home2 [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:37:18 bertus: can we confuse you more? 16:37:36 replor__ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:37:56 =) np. but what do I call fun1 then? 16:38:05 fn1 :P 16:38:11 ha, ha =) 16:38:29 ouch 16:39:17 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"] 16:39:57 -!- rread [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has quit [] 16:40:16 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:46 alexsei_ [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has joined #lisp 16:41:07 -!- alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:43:32 bertus: i'd maybe call fun1 process-atom and fun2 process-subtree 16:44:37 ah, I mean. what do you call that type of argument? is it still a formal parameter? 16:46:01 bougyman pasted "trying to get an optional body in a macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67615 16:46:12 antgreen [n=green@localhostlocaldomain.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:46:34 what am I missing in that macro to get format t output to run if no body is passed? 16:47:03 i'm assuming that's what it's deleting when the repl says 'note: deleting unreachable code' 16:47:11 cause that's the form it's showing in the backtrace 16:47:46 bertus: what makes you think that it would be something else? 16:48:02 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A270BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 16:48:09 bougyman: ,@ splices body into your output. 16:48:23 bougyman: try macroexpanding a usage of your macro to see what happens. 16:48:28 Is (let* ((x (vector 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)) (y (make-array 5 :displaced-to x))) (sort y #'>) x) guaranteed to return #(4 3 2 1 0 5 6 7 8 9) in all CL implementations? Does it have any ambigious implementation dependent behaviour? 16:49:00 H4ns: what's the proper way to do what i'm seeking there? 16:49:10 bougyman: it's kind of tiring, i know, but with slime, you'd type C-c m and see the macroexpansion. i don't know if limp can do something like that. 16:49:19 it does, and I see it. 16:49:38 bougyman: just don't splice the body, but rather use , - i'm not sure what you're trying to achive with this macro, though. 16:50:16 H4ns: it's just a simple test for a larger problem. 16:50:18 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:23 bougyman: note that you are evalkuating body twice in your macro 16:50:28 i see that now. 16:50:40 how to check body without evaluating it? 16:50:48 to check that it was passed, that is. 16:50:49 bougyman: which is something that you'd not normally want to do 16:51:05 i'm used to block_given? for that same functionality. 16:51:12 is there an equiv when inside a lisp macro? 16:51:17 bougyman: if you really want to learn something about macros, read 'on lisp' by paul graham. 16:51:55 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 16:51:56 bougyman: i'd recommend that you first finish pcl, though. 16:53:19 bougyman: for your problem at hand: you want to check if a body was provided outside of the actual expansion of the macro 16:53:27 bougyman: and remember, when you come to read On Lisp, that it is best considered as a thought experiment along the lines of "what if we had to do everything with macros", rather than an explanation of when to use them. 16:53:31 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-108-78.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:53:38 bougyman: that is, you'd make your macro only expand into somthing containing the body if one was provided. 16:54:01 H4ns: can you give a code example? 16:54:02 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:54:57 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:04 what would be the s-exp to check if body was provided. 16:55:06 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:56:26 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to go home"] 16:56:45 i don't want to evaluate body, just check if it exists/was provided. 16:57:07 (when body ...) 16:57:17 (unless (null body) ...) 16:57:29 -!- feagondpt [n=pedro@89.181.37.16] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:57:38 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:59:10 dlowe: it's in a macro, has to be at least ,body, no? 16:59:15 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:59:33 -!- gko [n=gko@61-224-68-126.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:59:39 bougyman: you should really read something about macros. really 16:59:48 bougyman: er, the comma has nothing to do with macros 17:00:21 H4ns: i've read the PCL macro chapter thrice today. 17:00:29 well, both macro chapters in it. 17:00:43 makes me feel sad 17:01:03 bougyman: try on lisp. maybe it is more understandable for you. 17:01:39 i'm not having a problem understanding the PCL, but it does not give this situation. 17:01:49 -!- alexsei_ [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:02:12 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@68.237.108.78] has joined #lisp 17:02:23 dlowe: if body is a macro parameter and i'm inside a backquoted expression in the macro, body is unbound. 17:02:30 dlowe: but ,body isn't. 17:02:51 bougyman: dlowe did not tell you anything about backquotes, and for a reason. 17:03:07 i'm _in_ a backquoted expession atm, though. 17:03:22 bougyman: don't go there in the first place. 17:03:23 bougyman: so what do you intend to do differently if body is NIL? 17:03:42 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 stable pre-release (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:03:46 -!- gz [n=gz@209-6-158-10.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:06 (defmacro foo (() &rest body) (if body ...expand-to-this... ...expand-to-that...)) 17:04:21 -!- replor__ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:04:44 -!- splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has quit ["`(out ,of ,@here)"] 17:04:50 that does not solve the multiple evaluation problem, though. 17:05:30 alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has joined #lisp 17:05:41 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:07:50 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:08:26 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-131-183.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 17:08:28 rread [n=rread@c-76-21-116-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:32 paste.lisp.org is the die again. 17:08:38 got it working, though, thanks, dlowe 17:09:14 what does paste.lisp.org run on? seems to have abnormally high error rates. 17:12:29 dtulig [n=dtulig@cpe-70-112-7-197.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:17 bougyman annotated #67615 with "optional body works now" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67615#1 17:13:41 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:14:21 the problem I have in the real macro I was writing is that I didn't want to have duplicate (let (a few definitions)) repeated on both sides of the if. 17:14:29 bougyman: yes. body is evaluated twice, though. may hurt or not, depending on what you are doing. 17:14:31 doesn't seem like that can be avoided. 17:14:42 why is body evaluated twice in that instance? 17:14:52 oh. 17:15:04 it is not, actually. ignore me once more. 17:15:32 it is only evaluated twice at macroexpansion time, which is okay. 17:16:56 Bert pasted "Best function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67617 17:17:05 it surprises me that lisp doesn't have introspection helper methods. 17:17:27 bougyman: can you given an example? 17:17:33 What's the difference in efficiency between exist-leaf? and exist-leaf2? in http://paste.lisp.org/display/67617? 17:17:36 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 17:18:07 how do I measure the efficiency? 17:18:20 bertus: is this homework? 17:18:25 michaelw: a function to give T/NIL when inside a macro to see if there's a body given. 17:18:35 michaelw: those kinds of general things. 17:18:42 bertus, first, define what you mean by efficiency, run that against each, compare 17:19:36 bougyman: huh? 17:21:11 lispm [n=joswig@e177125150.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:21:25 bougyman: didn't H4ns answer that? 17:21:50 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 17:21:59 michaelw: some things exists, like supplied-p in keyword parameters. 17:22:11 michaelw: i can't find such a thing for &rest &body 17:22:49 it sort of does not make sense 17:22:53 bougyman: you mean like (&body the-body)? 17:23:26 bougyman: &rest and &body return lists. An empty list is NIL. 17:23:27 dlowe, like body-supplied-p 17:23:38 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:23:48 bougyman: a body-supplied-p would be absolutely pointless 17:24:43 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@x-132-204-242-155.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 17:24:45 bougyman: what's wrong with (null rest) ? 17:25:08 schme: as H4 said, i have to evaluate body to test it in a conditional 17:25:26 But it's a macro? 17:25:35 bougyman: er, no you don't. You have to evaluate body to test the evaluated result :p 17:26:05 hrm. 17:26:14 how do you test to see if body is bound without evaluating it? 17:26:18 http://paste.lisp.org/display/67615#1 17:26:23 is that doing so already? 17:26:26 body is always bound 17:26:32 if there's no body, it's bound to NIL 17:27:19 bougyman: that's the correct implementation 17:27:25 (though a dubious cause :) 17:28:02 yes, this is a totally useless macro here, but I needed the logic to work so that the actualy macro i'm writing could follow the same idiom. 17:28:34 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:29:30 works splendidly now. 17:29:42 I was thinking of getting a #lisp group photo this evening 17:29:48 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:29:49 *dlowe* won't be there :( 17:29:52 so people could see who is holding Lisp back 17:29:54 dlowe: what! boo. 17:30:06 i can photoshop you in later 17:30:31 I wish I could go tonight :( 17:30:45 Cool. You can use the photo where my nictating membranes are closed. 17:30:46 unfortunately, I have a class going until 5:20 and am in Amherst. 17:30:54 ah nice, this once-only macro will help a bunch. 17:31:21 somehow I missed that on the first 3 reads of Chapter 8 17:31:37 ah, reddit will love that 17:35:46 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-59-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:36:52 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 17:37:02 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:02 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:38:02 -!- hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633321.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 17:38:13 *Xach* nods, smiles at planet lisp post explosion 17:46:01 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 17:47:25 adeht: Still there? 17:47:43 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:47:50 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:48:23 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-23-46.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:50:44 -!- papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:13 Xach: planet lisp : now with more Xach! 17:52:00 sorry. should've been blogging all along. 17:52:47 *Xach* needs a better blogging workflow 17:53:03 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:53:46 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 17:54:01 or "blogflow" if you will 17:54:11 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 17:55:05 drewc: what exciting lisp things have come across your desktop lately? 17:55:47 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:56:02 Xach: well, we're upgrading common-lisp.net .. that's exciting! 17:56:06 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-162-174.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 17:56:26 drewc: cool 17:56:43 hello 17:58:30 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 17:58:50 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:13 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:00:36 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 18:02:36 jmbr__ [n=jmbr@87.223.194.101] has joined #lisp 18:02:49 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 18:04:04 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-015-169.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 18:04:06 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-155-193-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:41 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-2e538314e9a80319] has joined #lisp 18:08:06 b82rez_ [n=b82rez@adsl-145-117.romerikebb.no] has joined #lisp 18:08:10 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-155-193-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:14:31 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:15:35 -!- jmbr__ is now known as jmbr 18:16:44 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.194.101] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:17:52 heh, i have finally figured out what font the hyperspec logo uses 18:17:55 http://cdn.myfonts.com/112/fs/u/04/aa47c038234e5999bd404a4053fff8.png 18:18:35 ah, yes. The beautiful aa47c038234e5999bd404a4053fff8 font 18:18:41 how could I forget 18:18:57 asdf25 [n=jeff@pool-96-241-127-243.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:11 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-76-124-114-5.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:19:16 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:19:19 it is called boulevard 18:19:34 and apparently costs $99, but not if i use the preview to render all the text i need :) 18:20:37 *Xach* has paid hard $$ for more fonts than he has had time to build tools around :( 18:20:46 *Xach* looks sadly at his half-built cartoon bubble generator system 18:20:58 anyone know if there's a profiling tool that profiles in tree form so i can see which higher level functions time is being spent in? or alternatively does sbcl have a facility for examining the call stack at runtime, so i could collect counts of which functions are in the call stack when a given function is called? 18:21:12 asdf25: sb-sprof does that 18:21:24 great thanks 18:21:28 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 18:21:49 Is there another way to write this? (loop for line = (read-line stream nil) while line do (...)) 18:22:06 tomoyuki28jp: I do that all the time 18:22:13 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 18:22:20 tomoyuki28jp: that's what i use. i have a for-each-line macro that i use sometimes that does essentially that. 18:22:50 Xach: Oh yeah, maybe I should define the for-each-line macro too. Thanks. 18:23:40 or you can use (mapping ((line (scan-stream stream)) ...) if you like SERIES 18:23:51 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:24:25 or (iterate ((line (scan-stream stream))) ...) 18:24:32 -!- vy [n=user@88.231.234.96] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:24:45 dlowe: oh, both of the ways looks nice to me. Thanks! 18:24:46 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-155-195-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:55 tomoyuki28jp: but then you have to install series 18:25:11 dlowe: oh really? I will just define a macro then. 18:25:22 Actually I don't like the loop macro so much. Do you guys like it? PG says we better not to use it, but the book "Practical Common Lisp" use it a lot. 18:25:26 dlowe: (scan-stream stream #'read-line), the default is READ 18:25:41 ah, my mistake 18:25:43 PG says a lot of things. Some of them are silly 18:26:02 you should note that he (PG) doesn't like common lisp much, and factor that in 18:26:23 *dlowe* has contemplated using SERIES for all his iteration needs for years. 18:26:31 opinion is divided on loop. It's crufty and non-extensible, but standard.... 18:26:47 dlowe: I started and ran into some bugs 18:26:59 michaelw: bugs are for fixing :D 18:27:02 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbc78e.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 18:27:08 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 18:27:09 dlowe: the series implementation is quite hairy... :) 18:27:10 *salex* uses iterate for some sorts of things often, but not generally 18:27:13 Xach: would sbcl be interested in a sb-series contrib? 18:27:43 -!- b82rez [n=b82rez@adsl-145-117.romerikebb.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:27:44 dlowe: uh, why? series is perfectly fine installable 18:27:56 michaelw: you said you ran into some bugs :p 18:28:00 lukego [n=lukegorr@208.49.99.251] has joined #lisp 18:28:03 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-76-124-114-5.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:32 dlowe: heck if i know...i don't know sbcl personally 18:28:47 dlowe: so what are you proposing? some kind of rewrite or fork? 18:29:45 dlowe: anyway, rtoy is upstream, afaict :) 18:31:40 lukego: Hi luke 18:32:40 morning :-) I'm just lurking at the moment, arrived at the office and looking for coffee :-) 18:32:52 they got you into an office? 18:35:17 "mornig" is relative 18:35:24 "morning" 18:36:50 tomoyuki28jp: I like LOOP a lot better than i like Graham, FWIW. 18:37:42 ok, friends. the train is rolling. see some of you at the lisp meeting tonight in boston! 18:38:00 Xach: Have fun! 18:38:10 Xach: oh .. is it the clojure talk this week? 18:38:17 user___ [n=user@p549237D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:26 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbd15d.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:45:10 *slyrus* just wants a collecting maphash 18:45:19 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177125150.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:45:26 xach: I'm actually in this office now http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2005/06/67951 but don't ask me for details because I'm sworn to secrecy :) 18:45:57 slyrus: It's in alexandria 18:46:19 gz [n=gz@209-6-158-10.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:49:20 tcr: it is? 18:49:22 -!- Bzek_ [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-30-131.kosnet.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 18:50:55 there's copy-hash-table which takes a key, but I just want a maphash that collects into a list so I don't have to do loop for k being the keys blah blah ... collect blah blah... 18:50:58 Xach: did you ever generate proof-of-concept logarithmic sparklines? 18:51:11 (multiple-value-call #'collect-alist (scan-hash ht)) 18:51:40 -!- user__ [n=user@p549237C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:52:04 it's not like planet lisp is silent all the time, yet the sparklines make it look that way 18:52:57 FufieToo [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:33 -!- bertus [n=po@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 18:54:12 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 18:54:27 huh. well that doesn't suck. someone feels bad about my dead laptop and is threatening to give me a new macbook pro 18:54:58 nice for lisp hacking (pitiful attempt at OTness) 18:57:42 slyrus: loop-hater :-) 18:58:10 chandler: it's not that, I just like the map family even more :) 18:58:56 tltstc [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 18:59:41 S11001001: that should give a fat warning that m-v-call is not allowed in series :) 19:00:19 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:01:02 -!- bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:01:24 whatev like I actually test code before committing it 19:02:17 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 19:02:19 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:02:24 also that sucks because writing (mapping ((ks vs) (scan-hash ht)) (collect-alist ks vs)) reeks of terribleness 19:02:29 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:03:45 vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:04:38 it's also wrong 19:04:59 oops, dropped some parens 19:05:06 hence the terribleness 19:05:56 (multiple-value-bind (ks vs) (scan-hash ht) (collect-alist ks vs)) should work 19:06:27 oh, right, forgot what mapping does 19:07:19 but yes, it is terrible 19:11:45 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B4A3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:15:15 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:16:18 lispm [n=joswig@e177125150.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:17:13 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:49 *rsynnott* considers making server 32bit just for ease of deploying sbcl stuff :P 19:19:13 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:19:42 hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:19:46 -!- FufieToo is now known as Fufie 19:22:04 I was just searching for mentions of &any in SLIME and thought I ought to say that I love eval-always 19:22:50 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:23:04 that one's for you tcr :) 19:24:52 prxq [n=mommer@Xdfe1.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 19:24:58 hi 19:28:28 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 19:35:38 rsynnott: i've been quite happy with my 64 bit sbcl servers 19:36:00 the immediate single floats, mmmm 19:37:10 how does sbcl do that? I read on the problems w/ Clozure on IA32, but as I understand it there are plenty more registers on x64. Partitioned between immediate values and Lisp values? 19:37:33 "plenty", heh 19:38:40 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:38:41 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:40:38 -!- mathrick is now known as baka 19:40:47 compared to A, B, C, D, SI, DI at least! 19:41:32 -!- baka is now known as mathrick 19:42:07 -!- Karpar [i=karpar@2001:da8:8000:d010:0:5efe:7dd9:f6d9] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:45:40 sykopomp` [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:45:41 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:45:52 bpr` [n=user@cpe-72-226-72-222.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:46:07 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-140-18.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:34 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:47:58 sbok_ [n=kobs@you.cant.haxit.org] has joined #lisp 19:48:01 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-184-254.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:14 sely__ [n=rps@24.7.206.73] has joined #lisp 19:48:20 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-184-254.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:48:32 -!- dboswell` [n=dave@208.177.146.111.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:48:32 -!- bpr [n=user@cpe-72-226-72-222.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:48:32 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:48:32 -!- mcxx [n=mcxx@mcxx.mcxx.eu] has quit [Dead socket] 19:48:32 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Dead socket] 19:48:32 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 19:48:32 -!- sbok [n=kobs@you.cant.haxit.org] has quit [Broken pipe] 19:49:15 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:49:33 drewc: yeah, clojure 19:50:24 Xach: do you know if it will be recorded? 19:51:03 -!- sely [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Dead socket] 19:51:05 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:51:21 -!- b82rez_ [n=b82rez@adsl-145-117.romerikebb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:51:27 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:51:27 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 19:51:29 djinni`` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:38 mcxx [n=mcxx@213.151.89.55] has joined #lisp 19:51:38 dboswell` [n=dave@208.177.146.111] has joined #lisp 19:51:47 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:57 slyrus: Ok, It's in my tree only, it seems. 19:56:22 I have a small question: how does the lisp community feel about clojure? 19:56:27 S11001001: I'm not sure I understood that remark. Instead of using an EVAL-ALWAYS macros, use C-c C-s on (eval-when | 19:56:41 *tcr* afk again. 19:56:58 drewc: not sure 19:57:13 rvirding: you'd have to find a lisp community first 19:57:20 drewc: someone is apparently skyping in 19:57:58 :-) OK, what do people here, on line now, feel about clojure? 19:58:27 -!- tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2E221.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:58:31 It would be more interesting if it weren't implemented on the JVM. 19:59:23 no last-call opt