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2016-11-22T00:34:44Z drmeister: Don't buy the Apple books version of Let Over Lambda - the typesetting of the examples is all screwed up.
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2016-11-22T01:44:35Z pillton: Wow. It still hasn't been fixed.
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2016-11-22T02:28:00Z krwq: got a question about ref/value. i.e.: (let (test (v (make-array 1 :fill-pointer 0)))
2016-11-22T02:28:00Z krwq:            (vector-push-extend (setf test '(1 2 3)) v)
2016-11-22T02:28:00Z krwq:            (push 4 test)
2016-11-22T02:28:00Z krwq:            v) - why does this eval to #((1 2 3)) and not #((1 2 3 4))? is list a value type?
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2016-11-22T02:30:09Z Zhivago: What is the value of v?
2016-11-22T02:30:37Z krwq: #((1 2 3))
2016-11-22T02:31:36Z Zhivago: So, why are you asking the above question?
2016-11-22T02:32:20Z krwq: i don't understand why it's that and not #((1 2 3 4))
2016-11-22T02:32:29Z Zhivago: Or rather, why would you expect it to evaluate to a value other than the value of v?
2016-11-22T02:32:58Z Zhivago: Why would you expect v to be #((1 2 3 4)) ?
2016-11-22T02:32:58Z krwq: because v is technically #(test) and i changed value of test
2016-11-22T02:33:35Z Zhivago: Well, you modified a list literal which has undefined behavior.
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2016-11-22T02:33:39Z axion: it is undefined if literals share structure
2016-11-22T02:34:06Z krwq: axion: how do you enforce that they do
2016-11-22T02:34:21Z Zhivago: Ah, I need more coffee.
2016-11-22T02:34:37Z Zhivago: Ok -- you have misunderstood what (push 4 test) does.
2016-11-22T02:35:19Z Zhivago: That is like (setf test (cons 4 test))
2016-11-22T02:35:34Z Zhivago: It rebinds test rather than mutating the value currently bound to test.
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2016-11-22T02:36:08Z Zhivago: Are you trying to apply a python or javascript model of lists here?
2016-11-22T02:36:20Z krwq: Zhivago: I'm learning the lisp model now :P
2016-11-22T02:37:14Z krwq: Zhivago: so is there a mutating way to push to the lisp list or do i need to create vector of vector
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2016-11-22T02:37:27Z Zhivago: Well, it depends on what you're trying to do.
2016-11-22T02:37:41Z Zhivago: python and javascript lists are vectors, so if that's what you want, then yes.
2016-11-22T02:38:04Z krwq: mutate elements assigned to variable which is put on a list or array
2016-11-22T02:38:35Z Zhivago: Otherwise consider (push 4 (aref test 0)), perhaps.
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2016-11-22T02:45:52Z krwq: Zhivago: thanks! is there a way to create a variable which would store something like (aref test 0)?
2016-11-22T02:46:16Z krwq testing with let
2016-11-22T02:47:38Z krwq: nah: (let* ((v (make-array 1)) (p (aref v 0))) (setf p 3) v)
2016-11-22T02:48:01Z axion: symbol-macrolet
2016-11-22T02:48:20Z krwq: axion: i'm doing arrays on PCL now no clue what that is
2016-11-22T02:48:35Z axion: your function call is evaluated to its return value first
2016-11-22T02:48:49Z axion: aref
2016-11-22T02:49:20Z krwq: nice
2016-11-22T02:49:21Z _death: if you don't use a literal, e.g. have (list 1 2 3), then you can modify that list (setf (cdr (last test)) (list 4)).. but if the list is the empty list, you don't have any cons cell to modify
2016-11-22T02:49:23Z krwq: just tested it
2016-11-22T02:49:30Z krwq: (let ((v (make-array 1))) (symbol-macrolet ((p (aref v 0))) (setf p 3) v))
2016-11-22T02:49:34Z krwq: ok this is pretty cool
2016-11-22T02:50:42Z krwq: wait _death: so '(1 2 3) is not equivalent to (list 1 2 3)?
2016-11-22T02:51:25Z _death: krwq: the former evaluates to a literal object, which should not be modified, while the latter returns a fresh object, which may be modified at will
2016-11-22T02:52:53Z krwq: _death: but i'm guessing that pushing won't work unless i implement that myself?
2016-11-22T02:53:00Z krwq: i mean to mutate that object
2016-11-22T02:53:14Z Zhivago: You may need to understand the concept of 'places'.
2016-11-22T02:53:31Z Zhivago: push modifies a place.
2016-11-22T02:53:44Z axion: literals like '() and #() have undefined behavior when modified
2016-11-22T02:54:17Z _death: krwq: like Zhivago said, a (push x y) where y is a variable just modifies the variable binding
2016-11-22T02:54:54Z krwq: _death: can you have a variable pointing to variable binding?
2016-11-22T02:55:06Z Zhivago: Or more generally, it modifies the place y, rather than what that place refers to.
2016-11-22T02:55:07Z loke: krwq: No.
2016-11-22T02:56:08Z loke: krwq: Well, actually, in some Lisps you can (SBCL has an API for it I think). It allows you to maipulate the bindings in an environment. But the CL spec itself trats the environment objects as opaqye things that you can't change or inspect.
2016-11-22T02:56:38Z loke: s/trats/treats/
2016-11-22T02:57:02Z Zhivago: Those bindings generally do not exist at execution-time.
2016-11-22T02:57:22Z loke: Zhivago: Of course. You typically work with environment objects at macroexpand time.
2016-11-22T02:58:03Z krwq: ok guys - i think that would explain it - thank you!
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2016-11-22T02:58:13Z Zhivago: Probably symbol-macros are the closest you'll come to variables pointing at variables.
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2016-11-22T02:58:43Z _death: krwq: older lisps had something called locatives, but that was not added to CL
2016-11-22T02:59:00Z krwq: symbol-macrolet is perfect for now, not sure if i'll ever need more :) i didn't know about that before
2016-11-22T03:00:32Z loke wonders if I have ever used MACROLET (not SYMBOL-MACROLET) for anything real.
2016-11-22T03:00:53Z axion: krwq: Its good you have been asking lots of questions and havent given up. That means you are determined. Common Lisp is pretty powerful and gives you a lot of freedom to do anything, but with freedom ironically comes lots of rules to learn. Keep it up :)
2016-11-22T03:01:18Z krwq: axion: i actually get annoyed by other languages the more im learning lisp :P
2016-11-22T03:01:37Z krwq: axion: thanks :)
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2016-11-22T03:07:17Z _death: krwq: also it'd be more accurate to say that LIST does not simply "create a fresh object", but a bunch of them (conses), unless it is called without arguments.  there is no LIST object, but NIL and CONS objects.  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/-dL9iqvBWgk/uhevTzXjpmEJ
2016-11-22T03:08:04Z jasom: _death: it *does* "create a fresh list" though.
2016-11-22T03:08:16Z jasom: also, trivially, (list) doesn't create a new object
2016-11-22T03:08:47Z jasom: oh, you mentioned the second point.
2016-11-22T03:09:20Z _death: jasom: "simply" was meant to address the first point
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2016-11-22T03:09:39Z jasom: right
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2016-11-22T03:10:14Z jasom: There is the concept of a list (which is a chain of conses) and a fresh list is a (possibly empty) chain of such objects
2016-11-22T03:10:54Z jasom: s/of such objects/of fresh conses/
2016-11-22T03:12:00Z jasom: there's also the type "list" which is just (or cons null), but that's usually not what people mean when they say "list"
2016-11-22T03:12:29Z _death: krwq: so like the post suggest, one way is to have test be a mylist thingy, then you can (push 4 (mylist-elements test))
2016-11-22T03:12:54Z _death: though you'd still not get (1 2 3 4) :)
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2016-11-22T03:14:14Z _death: jasom: a list is simply null or cons.. then there's proper lists, dotted lists, circular lists...
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2016-11-22T03:16:32Z _death: jasom: did you check the glossary before you wrote that? :)
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2016-11-22T03:17:37Z jasom: _death: I find pbj's response on that thread to be more obfuscating than helpful
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2016-11-22T03:20:00Z _death: jasom: it's just the post I had in mind with regards to this issue.. in all likelihood there are better-written explanations
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2016-11-22T03:27:11Z gunasekare: Hey Lispers I'm a complete beginner into Lisp. I've chosen to port the zlib library to Lisp as project for my Diploma and as an intro to Lisp. However documentation is a bit hazy except for the RFC's and zlib source itself, so could any of you give some pointers please?
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2016-11-22T03:31:01Z krwq: _death, jasom: sorry i was afk - thank you! gunasekare: do you mean common lisp documentation is a bit hazy or zlib's?
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2016-11-22T03:32:53Z loke: gunasekare: You are aware of the fact that this has already been done right? Look up the project GZIP-STREAM on Quicklisp.
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2016-11-22T03:33:40Z gunasekare: Thanks krwq. No Lisp is well documented. It's zlib. I've gone through some data compression textbooks (Sayoods, for example), and it's still not definitive.
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2016-11-22T03:34:28Z loke: gunasekare: https://github.com/mcna/gzip-stream/blob/master/inflate.lisp
2016-11-22T03:35:35Z gunasekare: loke: Yep. zlib and salza libraries are there. It's just a learning project and a hopeful attempt to develop a better library. AFAIK many libraries either support only compression or decompression and are not well maintained either (?).
2016-11-22T03:37:07Z gunasekare: loke: Thanks. I'll look into that. The project seems a bit too ambitious now, but it's too late to change now.
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2016-11-22T03:40:10Z loke: gunasekare: Do you intend to implement the actual algorithms, or just using CFFI to call out to the C code?
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2016-11-22T03:41:38Z gunasekare: loke: To implement the actual algorithm in Lisp. The project is for a library port.
2016-11-22T03:42:07Z gunasekare: loke: The link you gave is really informative. Finally!
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2016-11-22T03:44:20Z loke: gunasekare: The comments are useful, and the code is reasonably easy to read.
2016-11-22T03:47:18Z gunasekare: loke: Yeah, it's really clean. The other libraries I looked at weren't 'this' documented. It's kind of hard to read a source of a new language and learn the algorithm simultaneously :)
2016-11-22T03:48:09Z loke: Glad it helps.
2016-11-22T03:48:31Z gunasekare: loke: Thanks, again.
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2016-11-22T03:52:33Z akkad: if you have multiple variables and want to return the one that is not nil, is (or a b c d) the right way? I am getting the set variable, however there appears to be two values returned from this form
2016-11-22T03:52:33Z akkad:  
2016-11-22T03:53:10Z loke: akkad: Yes.
2016-11-22T03:53:21Z loke: There shouldn't be
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2016-11-22T03:53:34Z akkad: ok. thanks
2016-11-22T03:53:35Z loke: (or ...) returns the value of the first non-nil argument.
2016-11-22T03:53:38Z Zhivago: What leads you to believe to are returned?
2016-11-22T03:53:47Z Zhivago: er, two.
2016-11-22T03:54:05Z rpg: loke: Actually it returns multiple values for the last value, if it reaches that point.
2016-11-22T03:54:34Z rpg: but there shouldn't be multiple values in a list of variables.
2016-11-22T03:55:11Z loke: rpg: What? OK, I see what you're saying.
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2016-11-22T03:55:32Z rpg: have a look at the hyperspec (there's some way of getting a link from a bot, but I forget what it is)
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2016-11-22T03:56:18Z rpg: clhs or
2016-11-22T03:56:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_or.htm
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2016-11-22T03:56:31Z loke: rpg: That's OK. I remembr what the spec says on the subject. Until now I wondered why they chose that working.
2016-11-22T03:56:34Z loke: wording.
2016-11-22T03:56:43Z loke: Now it makes sense.
2016-11-22T03:56:43Z rpg: Me, too.
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2016-11-22T04:25:16Z krwq: how can i find all element types make-array supports?
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2016-11-22T04:26:02Z krwq: i mean - i got no clue how to find that in the spec
2016-11-22T04:28:22Z krwq: or i.e. how to define your own "expression which denotes the type"
2016-11-22T04:28:28Z Zhivago: make-array supports all element types.
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2016-11-22T04:28:44Z krwq: but how do you find what element types there are
2016-11-22T04:28:54Z Zhivago: Where?
2016-11-22T04:29:11Z krwq: cl-user or other packages
2016-11-22T04:29:21Z Zhivago: Your question doesn't make much sense to me.
2016-11-22T04:29:33Z Zhivago: There are an unlimited number of types.
2016-11-22T04:29:34Z krwq: how do i know what symbols i can use for element-type
2016-11-22T04:29:46Z krwq: but there is limited defined in the spec
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2016-11-22T04:30:41Z Zhivago: Well, many types aren't symbols.
2016-11-22T04:30:44Z pillton: clhs upgraded-array-element-type
2016-11-22T04:30:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_upgr_1.htm
2016-11-22T04:31:02Z krwq: i.e. string is an array of 'character but (type-of #\c) is STANDARD-CHAR
2016-11-22T04:31:12Z krwq: how do i know to use symbol CHARACTER
2016-11-22T04:31:40Z Zhivago: Well, what type describes all of the possible values you might want to use there?
2016-11-22T04:31:51Z PuercoPop: krwq: it says under arguments and values it takes a type specifier. You'll find a list of the atomic type specifiers defined in the standard in 4.2.3 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/04_bc.htm
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2016-11-22T04:32:41Z krwq: PuercoPop: how did you find that? im clicking on type specifiers and get pointed to http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_t.htm#type_specifier
2016-11-22T04:32:55Z pillton: clhs 15.1.2
2016-11-22T04:32:56Z specbot: Specialized Arrays: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/15_ab.htm
2016-11-22T04:33:12Z Zhivago: Look in the chapters -- types & classes > types > type specifiers.
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2016-11-22T04:33:47Z PuercoPop: pretty much what Zhivago said.
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2016-11-22T04:34:28Z pillton: You're better off understanding specialized arrays.
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2016-11-22T04:34:48Z krwq: Nice :) Thank you!
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2016-11-22T04:35:18Z Zhivago: Well, in some respects you might be better off ignoring them, and just using the appropriate type specification.
2016-11-22T04:35:56Z pillton: Yes. I agree, but the type specification doesn't offer the guarantees a user might expect.
2016-11-22T04:36:08Z Zhivago: (vector (or elephant goat) 10), for example.
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2016-11-22T04:37:42Z Zhivago: That is a vector that can contain elephants or goats (and possibly other stuff by accident).
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2016-11-22T04:39:14Z krwq: so when you got an existing object and want to find a type specifier is there a function like (type-of ...) but returning type specifier or do i need to read the whole spec to find my thing?
2016-11-22T04:39:40Z pillton: clhs type-of
2016-11-22T04:39:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_tp_of.htm
2016-11-22T04:39:48Z Zhivago: (type-of x) returns a type specifier for a type containing the value of x.
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2016-11-22T04:40:51Z krwq: as i said (type-of #\c) does not give me 'character - (class-of #\c) seems to be pretty close though
2016-11-22T04:41:12Z Zhivago: Why should (type-of #\c) give you 'character ?
2016-11-22T04:41:43Z Zhivago: There are more precise types that contain #\c.
2016-11-22T04:42:14Z krwq: because (make-array 3 :element-type 'character) is an array of characters
2016-11-22T04:42:24Z krwq: or a string isn't it?
2016-11-22T04:42:27Z Zhivago: So what?
2016-11-22T04:42:56Z Zhivago: Let's rephrase that as 'is an array that can contain characters'.
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2016-11-22T04:43:09Z Zhivago: So, what does (type-of #\c) produce?
2016-11-22T04:43:24Z krwq: STANDARD-CHAR
2016-11-22T04:43:45Z krwq: (type-of "asd") => (SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (3))
2016-11-22T04:43:52Z Zhivago: And (make-array 3 :element-type 'standard-char) then is an array that can contain #\c.
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2016-11-22T04:43:59Z krwq: not (SIMPLE-ARRAY STANDARD-CHAR (3))
2016-11-22T04:44:14Z Zhivago: Why is that a problem?
2016-11-22T04:44:22Z krwq: so can i find all types the #\c is of?
2016-11-22T04:44:37Z Zhivago: #\c is a member of an infinite number of types.
2016-11-22T04:44:39Z pillton: There is an infinite number!
2016-11-22T04:44:47Z pillton: Types denote sets.
2016-11-22T04:45:03Z krwq: ok i think i got to read more then
2016-11-22T04:45:07Z Zhivago: Types and classes are different things in CL -- you may be conflating them.
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2016-11-22T04:45:36Z krwq: ok, thanks, i'll keep on reading now
2016-11-22T04:45:37Z Zhivago: A type is a classification; a class is a description of representation.
2016-11-22T04:46:16Z krwq: Zhivago: i don't know what that means
2016-11-22T04:46:41Z krwq: class is like a struct in C?
2016-11-22T04:46:48Z Zhivago: No.
2016-11-22T04:46:49Z krwq: and type is just a set of labels?
2016-11-22T04:47:12Z Zhivago: Consider the type (integer 1 20) -- the integers from 1 to 20.
2016-11-22T04:47:26Z Zhivago: Consider the type (integer 2 21) -- the integers from 2 to 21.
2016-11-22T04:48:29Z Zhivago: Consider a class system-fixnum which can represent 32 bit integers.
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2016-11-22T04:48:48Z Zhivago: Consider a class system-bignum which can represent arbitrarily large integers.
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2016-11-22T04:49:14Z Zhivago: Now consider the integer 3 -- it belongs to both types, and may have either class.
2016-11-22T04:49:46Z Zhivago: The integer 1 only belongs to one type, but may have either class.
2016-11-22T04:50:23Z Zhivago: The integer 1234567878901234567890 belongs to neither type, and may not have the class system-fixnum.
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2016-11-22T04:55:13Z krwq: Zhivago: thank you - i don't fully understand it but get some idea now - i'll keep on reading
2016-11-22T04:55:23Z Zhivago: Good luck.
2016-11-22T04:55:33Z krwq: thanks!
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2016-11-22T05:23:10Z krwq: when you use remove-if and setf the result does it do optimization to do the operation in-place?
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2016-11-22T05:23:57Z krwq: I mean like i.e.: (setf seq (remove-if 'even seq))
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2016-11-22T05:24:45Z White_Flame: there could be others pointing to the data in seq, so you wouldn't want your system to randomly trample stuff when using a non-destructive form
2016-11-22T05:25:12Z krwq: White_Flame: is there a set of functions like remove-if but destructive?
2016-11-22T05:25:25Z White_Flame: it's right in the clhs page.  s/remove/delete/
2016-11-22T05:25:27Z White_Flame: clhs remove
2016-11-22T05:25:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm
2016-11-22T05:26:13Z krwq: I see - thank you White_Flame
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2016-11-22T05:31:05Z Fare is nearing the goal of making asdf treat defsystem-depends-on incrementally
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2016-11-22T05:45:16Z pillton: Don't you need to write your own reader for that problem?
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2016-11-22T05:52:49Z loke: Fare: What does DEFSYSTEM-DEPENDS-ON  do?
2016-11-22T05:55:47Z Fare: it loads code into asdf so as to process the defsystem statement.
2016-11-22T05:55:50Z Fare: e.g. cffi
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2016-11-22T05:56:34Z Fare: then, if you modify cffi, asdf with my branch will detect that and recompile your code
2016-11-22T05:56:38Z loke: Oh I see.
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2016-11-22T05:56:58Z Fare: whereas current asdf doesn't detect that cffi changed and won't recompile your code.
2016-11-22T05:56:58Z loke: Oh, that's neat.
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2016-11-22T05:57:59Z pillton: Fare: Do you still need to do stuff like this https://github.com/cffi/cffi/blob/master/grovel/asdf.lisp#L151 ?
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2016-11-22T06:38:32Z Fare: pillton, you particularly need that with defsystem-depends-on -- alternatively, you can use a string to name your class in a yet-to-be-defined package.
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2016-11-22T08:32:03Z John[Lisbeth]: I want to run (defun foo (x) ((bar)(baz)))
2016-11-22T08:33:03Z H4ns: John[Lisbeth]: that is not legal common lisp syntax.
2016-11-22T08:33:11Z John[Lisbeth]: There is a function that function
2016-11-22T08:33:23Z John[Lisbeth]: (defun foo (x) (somefunction (bar) (baz)))
2016-11-22T08:33:25Z H4ns: if (bar) returns a function, you want (defun foo (x) (funcall (bar) (baz)))
2016-11-22T08:33:42Z John[Lisbeth]: I'll try that
2016-11-22T08:33:58Z H4ns: there is also apply, if baz returns the actual argument list for the function returned by foo.
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2016-11-22T08:34:58Z John[Lisbeth]: sorry I had a major crash in emacs I lost all of that
2016-11-22T08:35:16Z John[Lisbeth]: You said funcall I believe
2016-11-22T08:35:29Z H4ns: John[Lisbeth]: funcall and apply.  look them up in a book.
2016-11-22T08:36:18Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't think either of these do what I want
2016-11-22T08:36:36Z John[Lisbeth]: (somefunction 2 2) should be the same thing as typing 2 then pressing return then typing 2 then pressing return
2016-11-22T08:37:13Z John[Lisbeth]: (somefunction (+ 2 2) (- 1 2)) should be the same thing as typing (+ 2 2) RETURN (- 1 2) RETURN
2016-11-22T08:37:19Z z0d: do you want to return multiple values?
2016-11-22T08:37:24Z John[Lisbeth]: yes
2016-11-22T08:37:26Z John[Lisbeth]: potentially
2016-11-22T08:37:39Z z0d: ,clhs values
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2016-11-22T08:39:00Z z0d: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_values.htm
2016-11-22T08:39:22Z z0d: John[Lisbeth]: use VALUES
2016-11-22T08:39:58Z z0d: ie. (values 1 2 3) returns 3 values
2016-11-22T08:42:39Z John[Lisbeth]: I can't return 1 and 2 as a side effect?
2016-11-22T08:42:58Z John[Lisbeth]: I am doing something imperative
2016-11-22T08:43:23Z z0d: you can assign them to some variable, but that's not the Lisp way
2016-11-22T08:43:38Z John[Lisbeth]: yes I am not programming the lisp way in this particular instance as an experimetn
2016-11-22T08:44:18Z John[Lisbeth]: Okie dokie so I can add side effects like (defun foo () 2 1 3 (bar 2)) but I will always "return" a single thing
2016-11-22T08:44:37Z z0d: no
2016-11-22T08:44:54Z z0d: even if you're not programming in Lisp style, you still must write valid Lisp syntax
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2016-11-22T08:47:49Z John[Lisbeth]: there's no macro that does something similar to the semicolon in c, breaking the rules of no side effects?
2016-11-22T08:49:16Z z0d: Lisp's semicolon are parentheses
2016-11-22T08:49:43Z z0d: what do you mean by breaking the rules of no side effects?
2016-11-22T08:50:03Z John[Lisbeth]: I need to contain two sets of parentheses within one
2016-11-22T08:50:15Z John[Lisbeth]: it would look like ((bar)(baz))
2016-11-22T08:50:20Z John[Lisbeth]: and to achieve it you would use the function foo
2016-11-22T08:50:25Z z0d: why don't you tell us what you want to do, instead of how you want to do it?
2016-11-22T08:50:27Z John[Lisbeth]: (foo (bar) (baz))
2016-11-22T08:51:17Z John[Lisbeth]: I want to do what I say I want to do.
2016-11-22T08:51:29Z John[Lisbeth]: I want a semicolon macro called foo
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2016-11-22T08:52:23Z John[Lisbeth]: I am almost certain I have even seen a function that already does this
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2016-11-22T08:52:58Z H4ns: has something been in this channel's drinking water lately?
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2016-11-22T08:54:28Z John[Lisbeth]: To do the thing that I want to do without the semicolon macro requires completely reworking the model of the program in my head
2016-11-22T08:54:58Z John[Lisbeth]: Basically I've got a global linked list
2016-11-22T08:55:17Z John[Lisbeth]: and I need to be able to make mutiple transactions to that linked list within the same function
2016-11-22T08:55:35Z John[Lisbeth]: and those transaction need to be built from smaller functions that perform single transactions on the list
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2016-11-22T08:58:45Z H4ns: John[Lisbeth]: you neither need "semicolons" nor "macros" for that.
2016-11-22T08:59:12Z H4ns: John[Lisbeth]: all that you need is a mutable reference that you pass to these functions.  this could be a cons cell, or a struct, or a clos instance.
2016-11-22T08:59:28Z John[Lisbeth]: I do in fact need the semicolons to do it the way that I am trying to do it or I have not created anythign unique in lisp
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2016-11-22T09:00:48Z John[Lisbeth]: progn
2016-11-22T09:00:52Z John[Lisbeth]: that is what I needed
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2016-11-22T09:07:50Z Cymew: H4ns: It has been odd lately, hasn't it?
2016-11-22T09:08:38Z H4ns: Cymew: i think i remember there is a pattern like this every fall.
2016-11-22T09:09:41Z Cymew: This late?
2016-11-22T09:10:27Z Cymew: I thought those patterns were centred around September.
2016-11-22T09:10:45Z H4ns: you're probably right.
2016-11-22T09:10:50Z H4ns: so it is the drinking water :D
2016-11-22T09:10:56Z Cymew: :)
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2016-11-22T13:18:39Z flip214: is there a library to access a webcam with CL? googling "lisp webcam" gives ... interesting results, but not what I'm searching for [right now ;]
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2016-11-22T13:19:25Z flip214: the only way I can imagine right now would be vlc/ffmpeg/avconv etc. and piping PPMs or similar
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2016-11-22T13:22:53Z flip214: but that wouldn't allow to change framerate/contrast/etc. on the fly, or at least not as easy as an IOCTL or so
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2016-11-22T13:23:48Z flip214: perhaps the best way would be FFI bindings to libuvc... has somebody heard about doing that?
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2016-11-22T13:25:37Z jackdaniel: on last ELS someone used kinect and camera with racket
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2016-11-22T13:30:00Z _death: I tend to use opencv for that, but the bindings I wrote are (i) outdated (ii) proprietary.. I don't know if the opencv bindings you can find via google work
2016-11-22T13:31:03Z _death: libuvc seems simple enough to autowrap quickly
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2016-11-22T14:47:38Z flip214: so, just using cffi-grovel would be my best option?
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2016-11-22T15:01:42Z flip214: #<PRINT-NOT-READABLE {100C9B1893}> cannot be printed readably.
2016-11-22T15:02:14Z jackdaniel: it's on the box ;)
2016-11-22T15:03:25Z isoraqathedh: Urgh… I don't understand what you have to do on Windows to make cl-ana know that gsl is installed…
2016-11-22T15:05:13Z jackdaniel: maybe something must be in the path or something in this spirit?
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2016-11-22T15:17:01Z isoraqathedh: Hrm, that's a good start. Of course, adding stuff to the PATH doesn't seem to take until a restart…
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2016-11-22T15:43:31Z oleo: what's the difference between (declare (ignore x)) and (declare (ignorable x)) ?
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2016-11-22T15:45:04Z H4ns: oleo: if you declare something as "ignore", the compiler may complain if you use it.
2016-11-22T15:45:12Z H4ns: it may, and it probably will
2016-11-22T15:46:04Z oleo: thank you for all your non-answering.......
2016-11-22T15:46:26Z shrdlu68: clhs ignore
2016-11-22T15:46:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ignore.htm
2016-11-22T15:46:28Z oleo: H4ns: i don't get the difference between ignorable and ignore
2016-11-22T15:46:44Z H4ns: oleo: you are welcome.
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2016-11-22T15:49:22Z shrdlu68: oleo: If it's declared ignore, you request the compiler to issue a warning if fbound, if ignorable you request the compiler not to issue a warning about var being fbound or not.
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2016-11-22T15:49:48Z shrdlu68: s/fbound/bound
2016-11-22T15:50:00Z oleo: aah
2016-11-22T15:50:25Z oleo: thank you shrdlu68
2016-11-22T15:50:37Z pipping: rpg_: since the 32bit version was so slow for you, I've put together a 64bit version of the same ECL snapshot without the require-issue for windows: http://dev.exherbo.org/~pipping/ecl-16.1.2-develop-161119-msvc-win64-installer.exe
2016-11-22T15:50:48Z oleo: to issue or not, that's the question ok ok
2016-11-22T15:50:52Z oleo: haha :)
2016-11-22T15:50:53Z rpg_: pipping: Thanks so much!
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2016-11-22T15:52:28Z pipping: rpg: (if it's still slow, then that's probably down to ECL_SSE defaulting to '' (= disabled); I'll happily create another installer with that enabled, too ;)
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2016-11-22T16:18:40Z flip214: can I tell UIOP to kill a %run-program (and, with GIT head, launch-program) started process? or at least clean it up (and hope that it goes away by itself)?
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2016-11-22T16:19:31Z PuercoPop: solene: hi
2016-11-22T16:20:13Z solene: PuercoPop: hello, using a config file isn't the best way for me to define systems path for asdf because each clisp/ecl/sbcl packages should create it, this would create a conflict
2016-11-22T16:21:02Z PuercoPop: asdf:*source-registry* is how ASDF finds a specific system, it won't affect where asdf searchs for systems
2016-11-22T16:21:22Z PuercoPop: solene: Why do you need a different search path for each implementation?
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2016-11-22T16:21:42Z solene: PuercoPop: using CL_SOURCE_REGISTRY to a folder with symlinks to .asd libraries file works
2016-11-22T16:22:51Z solene: PuercoPop: no, I need exactly the same search path for each compiler. But, for example, if you install sbcl, it will create the file /etc/common-lisp/source-registry.conf, then install ecl and it will override the same file. Uninstall sbcl and the file go with it, leaving ecl without a working asdf
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2016-11-22T16:24:24Z PuercoPop: solene: installing SBCL doesn't create a /etc/common-lisp/source-registry.conf
2016-11-22T16:24:49Z PuercoPop: solene: you can use the configuration DSL as an argument to asdf:initialize-source-registry call it with different values in each of the implementations rc files, but I'm not understanding the use case
2016-11-22T16:25:16Z PuercoPop: (nor installing ECL, that seems something your distribution is doing)
2016-11-22T16:25:57Z solene: PuercoPop: no, I am trying to package CL libraries for OpenBSD, there is 0 libs actually. For it, I need that when you install sbcl/ecl/etc.. that they find the libraries by themselves
2016-11-22T16:27:49Z PuercoPop: ASDF has a default strategy when no configuration is present. Do you need to create a system wide configuration? Also the configuration directory allows the use of multiple files so you could create one that adds the specifics for each implementation (not sure if you need any really)
2016-11-22T16:28:55Z PuercoPop: solene: so instead of creating /etc/common-lisp/source-registry.conf it would be better to create /etc/common-lisp/source-registry.d/
2016-11-22T16:29:08Z rpg: ...or just populate ~/common-lisp/
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2016-11-22T16:30:16Z solene: rpg: I need this system-wide. I will try with the /etc/common-lisp/source-registry.d/ and one file for each implementation, containing the same path
2016-11-22T16:30:36Z rpg: solene: Ah, you mean not user-specific
2016-11-22T16:30:44Z rpg: Yes, then your idea should work
2016-11-22T16:31:06Z oleo: there's a default path for the source registry
2016-11-22T16:31:15Z oleo: you can change it
2016-11-22T16:31:28Z oleo: somewhere in the sources of asdf
2016-11-22T16:33:17Z solene: oleo: i'm trying to do this at this time, no success :( it may be a bit more complicated to add a path in asdf:*default-source-registries* than adding a path in it
2016-11-22T16:34:44Z oleo: welp, sorry i didn't try to change it, i just looked where it defaulted to.....
2016-11-22T16:34:45Z solene: I think the dir in /etc/common-lisp is cleaner. By modifying asdf.lisp in the implementation, this will require to maintain a patch for each implementation in the packages
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2016-11-22T16:37:44Z PuercoPop: solene: btw does SBCL works ok in OpenBSD? Does W^X cause any problems? I vaguely remember reading something about it on sbcl-devel
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2016-11-22T16:39:24Z solene: PuercoPop: I've been working a lot on it to get it working due to W^X and it facts it worked nicely with just wxallowed mount flag, but a test case triggered a not known W^X issue (when a process forked, the child didn't heritate W^X stuff or something). This has been fixed and then sbcl was compiling after
2016-11-22T16:39:30Z solene: now it even compiles with threads !
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2016-11-22T16:44:08Z PuercoPop: nice!
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2016-11-22T16:59:49Z pipping: flip214: you can with the upcoming release
2016-11-22T16:59:56Z pipping: flip214: not with 3.1.7
2016-11-22T17:01:17Z pipping: flip214: see e.g. https://github.com/pipping/delta-lisp/blob/master/delta.lisp#L52 (consequently, that application does not work with 3.1.7 either)
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2016-11-22T17:08:52Z jfe: hello.
2016-11-22T17:09:35Z jfe: what do you think alan kay meant when he said that lisp isn't a language, it's a building material?
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2016-11-22T17:13:08Z jfe: is he referring to the fact that s-exprs are just explicit syntax trees?
2016-11-22T17:13:51Z raydeejay: not really, think more abstract
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2016-11-22T17:15:58Z jfe: raydeejay: can you explain?
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2016-11-22T17:21:41Z raydeejay: not properly, I guess, I'm a bit busy... think about this: every time you write a macro, you are extending lisp's syntax
2016-11-22T17:22:00Z raydeejay: in other words: building more language
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2016-11-22T17:51:08Z jasom: jfe: Kay was a huge proponent of bottom-up programming, so he's probably talking about that.  Rather than designing your programm from the top-down you build tools that will make writing your program easier.
2016-11-22T17:53:48Z jasom: jfe: a classic analogy for bottom-up development is Legos.  You can make a bunch of legos without knowing exactly what you are going to build out of them, versus a top-down design where you say "Okay, the bulding will look like X, so now I need to make a dome, a tower, a roof ..."
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2016-11-22T18:27:36Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-11-22T18:27:50Z malice`: Good evening beach
2016-11-22T18:28:05Z beach: malice`: (asdf:load-system :mcclim)
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2016-11-22T18:28:16Z beach: ... to build McCLIM.
2016-11-22T18:28:25Z malice`: beach: it works now, or is :clim not really an alias?
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2016-11-22T18:28:49Z beach: I don't know that.
2016-11-22T18:29:01Z beach: But if you have problems like that in the future, go to the #clim channel.
2016-11-22T18:29:28Z malice`: beach: I believe I visited the channel
2016-11-22T18:29:34Z beach: Ah, OK.
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2016-11-22T18:30:19Z jfe: jasom: thanks, that's a good analogy.
2016-11-22T18:30:39Z malice`: beach: I've had problem with silica. Where is it defined?
2016-11-22T18:30:42Z malice`: The silica package
2016-11-22T18:31:00Z malice`: Because apparently that's missing in whatever version I pulled
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2016-11-22T18:31:34Z beach: Silica is only defined in "classic CLIM" not in McCLIM.
2016-11-22T18:31:51Z beach: That package should not be referred to if you are building McCLIM.
2016-11-22T18:32:14Z beach: If you build esa-mcclim for instance, that will happen.
2016-11-22T18:32:25Z jackdaniel: malice`: :clim isn't an alias
2016-11-22T18:32:36Z beach: You should not build esa-mcclim.  You should build mcclim instead.  It will build ESA for you.
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2016-11-22T18:34:01Z beach: I have a strange problem.  I used to have SBCL 1.2.5 installed, and I replaced it with 1.3.11 the other day.  I deleted the 1.2.5 directory in .cache and updated all distributions in Quicklisp.  Yet, when I call ASDF to build some code, the 1.2.5 directory is created in .cache and FASLs are stored there, so it somehow still finds my old SBCL.
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2016-11-22T18:34:41Z malice`: beach: I see. Indeed, (ql:quickload :mcclim) works. Well, I guess that it's up to Xach to decide whether or not should he remove the package that isn't building...
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2016-11-22T18:36:20Z beach: Ultimately, calling ASDF fails with a message that sb-bsd-sockets.fasl has version 1.3.11 and it can't be loaded into SBCL version 1.2.5.
2016-11-22T18:36:36Z jackdaniel: beach: did you restart inferior lisp?
2016-11-22T18:36:56Z beach: Uh oh.  let me check.
2016-11-22T18:37:00Z jackdaniel: M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp
2016-11-22T18:37:43Z jackdaniel: or ", r-i [tab]"
2016-11-22T18:38:36Z beach: That was it.  Thanks!  *blush*
2016-11-22T18:38:57Z beach: I almost never restart my slime, so I didn't think about it.
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2016-11-22T18:40:08Z jackdaniel: great :)
2016-11-22T18:40:15Z beach: Now I have to go find all the SLIME instances I have running on my 36 workspaces.
2016-11-22T18:40:55Z jackdaniel: I have emacs daemon as a server and one instance usually
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2016-11-22T18:41:11Z jackdaniel: or two (if I work with ECL)
2016-11-22T18:42:09Z beach: So you have a single Common Lisp process for all your appliations?
2016-11-22T18:42:14Z beach: applications
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2016-11-22T18:43:23Z jackdaniel: yes, that's usually true
2016-11-22T18:43:40Z jackdaniel: if I test or work on something (say – McCLIM) I often restart the process though
2016-11-22T18:44:07Z jackdaniel: I think it doesn't fit well in typical workflow
2016-11-22T18:44:13Z beach: That's pretty gutsy, given that current Common Lisp implementations are not written to isolate different "users".
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2016-11-22T18:45:16Z jackdaniel: I'm most the CLI guy, if I have some functionality I depend on dropping binary is my favourite way of using application
2016-11-22T18:46:01Z jackdaniel: image inside emacs is more for programming, testing, playing with software
2016-11-22T18:47:11Z beach: I see.
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2016-11-22T18:47:53Z phadthai: hmm I also have few slime-connected instances but more running daemons (ECL compiled binaries), some of which are slime-attachable, but some others running in non-attachable mode, some others with a repl under tmux+rlwrap for occasional commands
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2016-11-22T18:58:09Z Xach: malice`: i already don't include projects that don't build. i'm not sure why it builds in my quicklisp test build environment but not on my "normal" build environment.
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2016-11-22T18:58:35Z jackdaniel: what doesn't build?
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2016-11-22T19:03:59Z Xach: esa-mcclim, I think.
2016-11-22T19:04:14Z beach: It is not supposed to build.
2016-11-22T19:04:23Z beach: But it does when McCLIM is already built.
2016-11-22T19:04:31Z Xach: beach: Is esa-mcclim defined in mcclim.asd? Or is it defined in a standalone .asd?
2016-11-22T19:04:50Z Xach: beach: I am trying to understand my build system better.
2016-11-22T19:04:53Z beach: I don't know.  Better ask jackdaniel.
2016-11-22T19:05:17Z beach: Either way, esa-mcclim was designed so that it could build on "classic clim" without McCLIM.
2016-11-22T19:05:35Z jackdaniel: it is separate asd file, but it's distributed with mcclim
2016-11-22T19:05:36Z beach: But if you do that, you had better have classic clim installed, which has a silica package.
2016-11-22T19:06:00Z jackdaniel: it shouldn't be loaded directly
2016-11-22T19:06:13Z beach: The right way to build ESA seems to be to just build the MCCLIM system, and ESA builds with it.
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2016-11-22T19:09:13Z jackdaniel: esa-mcclim is required by drei-mcclim, which is required by clim.asd which provides input substrate to be more exact
2016-11-22T19:09:49Z Xach: and a partridge in a pear tree
2016-11-22T19:10:35Z jackdaniel doesn't understand :(
2016-11-22T19:10:47Z jackdaniel: is it a common idiom?
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2016-11-22T19:11:27Z jackdaniel: only some reference to christmas song in google :p
2016-11-22T19:13:19Z dlowe: it's a very popular christmas song
2016-11-22T19:13:31Z dlowe: composed of lists of gifts
2016-11-22T19:14:36Z jackdaniel: ah, thanks
2016-11-22T19:14:57Z Xach: you have to re-list all previous gifts in each verse. it gets layered and long.
2016-11-22T19:15:09Z Xach: requirement lists make me think of it
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2016-11-22T19:15:54Z jackdaniel: OK, now I get it :)
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2016-11-22T20:06:59Z drmeister: jackdaniel: I'm not sure if I've asked this before - do you know how ECL tracks source information in the compiler?
2016-11-22T20:08:34Z jackdaniel: drmeister: with ext:register-with-pde
2016-11-22T20:08:51Z jackdaniel: by default it's function default-annotation-logic defined in src/lsp/helpfile.lsp
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2016-11-22T20:23:18Z Xach: Hmm, anyone happen to know chapter and verse of the consequences from reading from an uninitialized array?
2016-11-22T20:24:08Z jackdaniel: If initial-element is not supplied, the consequences of later reading an uninitialized element of new-array are undefined unless either initial-contents is supplied or displaced-to is non-nil.
2016-11-22T20:24:27Z jackdaniel: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm
2016-11-22T20:24:54Z Xach: Thanks.
2016-11-22T20:25:10Z jackdaniel: sure
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