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2016-11-21T00:05:22Z phoe: sweet john
2016-11-21T00:05:23Z phoe: https://github.com/cxxxr/lem
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2016-11-21T00:10:04Z phoe: beach: you might want to see this
2016-11-21T00:10:07Z younder:  Wouldn't  you just use piccle to save/load objects?
2016-11-21T00:11:12Z phoe: younder: what's piccle?
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2016-11-21T00:12:26Z younder: phoe, https://github.com/willf/apex/blob/master/system/utility/pickle.lisp
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2016-11-21T00:14:30Z phoe: younder: this is interesting, I'll think about using it.
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2016-11-21T00:17:19Z Xach: cl-store is a better option.
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2016-11-21T00:18:46Z phoe: Xach: noted.
2016-11-21T00:21:35Z vtomole: Does anyone here hack with SICL?
2016-11-21T00:22:38Z phoe: vtomole: beach for sure does.
2016-11-21T00:24:44Z vtomole: The way i understand it, it's supposed to be used to make new cl implementations? Don't we have enough implementations as it is though?
2016-11-21T00:27:33Z phoe: it's supposed to be a new CL implementation, yes
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2016-11-21T00:28:06Z phoe: also, we do not have an implementation that's written in 100% CL and that is bootstrappable from 100% CL
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2016-11-21T00:29:05Z phoe: and by written in 100% CL, I mean, written with the ability to leverage all of Common Lisp's power during the creation of the implementation
2016-11-21T00:29:21Z phoe: so you can write a full CL in full CL, not a subset of CL or a different language
2016-11-21T00:29:34Z phoe: and once you have it, you can compile it using only CL
2016-11-21T00:30:12Z phoe: these are the goals of SICL as I understand them.
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2016-11-21T00:31:40Z vtomole: Mezzano CL is written in 100% CL, You can compile it with SBCL, so it might be bootstrapped from 100% CL. I haven't tried compiling it using SICL. This is definitely something i should ask beach about :)
2016-11-21T00:31:41Z |3b|: vtomole: also, we don't have enough implementations (missing things like CLs for android VM, smaller microcontrollers, etc)
2016-11-21T00:33:55Z |3b|: also lots of existing implementations are old and have accumulated lots of historical complication making them hard to use for experimenting with implementing newer compiler techniques, CGs, JITs, etc
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2016-11-21T00:36:50Z vtomole: |3b|: True, I was going to ask if ECL was good for microcontrollers but then you said that the implementations we have is old.
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2016-11-21T00:37:10Z |3b|: depends on your definition of microcontroller :)
2016-11-21T00:37:44Z |3b|: ECL is fine for stuff like arm, which overlaps with 'microcontroller' a bit these days
2016-11-21T00:38:48Z |3b|: (at least at the hobbyist scale where you are mostly paying for the board and assembly rather than the chip itself)
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2016-11-21T00:39:48Z |3b|: but for smaller things you probably would want more options for removing most of the runtime (which is another of the sort of experimentation that is hard to do with existing CL implementations)
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2016-11-21T00:40:19Z |3b|: and i'm not saying 'old' is a bad thing
2016-11-21T00:40:41Z |3b|: most of the accumulated complexity that makes them hard to modify also adds useful features
2016-11-21T00:40:41Z krwq: the most evil code of the day: (setf *read-base* 9)
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2016-11-21T00:41:48Z vtomole: I agree, SBCL has been so optimized, that it's hard for me to understand the source sometimes.
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2016-11-21T00:43:03Z |3b| adds lem to the list of editors to look into as alternatives to running emacs in terminal since i can't do that easily on windows
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2016-11-21T00:45:05Z |3b|: in particular, the lem-slime that seems to use a network connection looks promising
2016-11-21T00:47:45Z |3b| has the impression most of the other options lack that feature
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2016-11-21T00:57:05Z Mynock^_^: Hi guys dumb question .. but I'm just starting out with CL and I have a question about the "hyperspec" I was trying to use the hyperspec to find a list of format control strings. I ended up just going round in loops and getting nowhere I ended up finding a list on google .. but my question is why doesn't the hyperspec have this info and/or if it does why can't i find it
2016-11-21T00:57:46Z Zhivago: Look in the chapter on format.
2016-11-21T00:57:52Z Mynock^_^: Yea I did
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2016-11-21T00:58:20Z Zhivago: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/22_c.htm
2016-11-21T00:59:11Z Mynock^_^: that link has a few example but not an exhaustive list
2016-11-21T00:59:35Z |3b|: it has an exhaustive list, just broken up over all the subsections :/
2016-11-21T00:59:56Z Zhivago: Uh, look in the sub-chapters which provide exhaustive lists ...
2016-11-21T01:00:17Z |3b|: as for why it doesn't have them all together, probably because it is primarily a specification rather than a user document
2016-11-21T01:00:48Z Mynock^_^: Oh I see thanks for the help ... sorry I was having a brain fart
2016-11-21T01:01:00Z Zhivago: You're welcome.
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2016-11-21T02:50:51Z Lord_Nightmare: wow, nokolisp isn't actualy dead: http://web.archive.org/web/19970606170926/http://www.clinet.fi/~noko/
2016-11-21T02:50:58Z Lord_Nightmare tries to run it in dosbox
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2016-11-21T02:53:25Z Zhivago: What's the dialect?
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2016-11-21T02:56:26Z Lord_Nightmare: Zhivago: i'm not actually sure. its something noko wrote for nokia back in the early 80s, i figure its pre ansi common lisp, but may match 2nd ed common lisp or 1st ed?
2016-11-21T02:56:40Z Lord_Nightmare: could also be based on something even older
2016-11-21T02:56:44Z Zhivago: I see a profound lack of source or documentation. :)
2016-11-21T02:56:52Z Lord_Nightmare: havent got dosbox running yet
2016-11-21T02:57:02Z Zhivago: But it's impressive that he's maintained it while living in a tent on a diet of fish.
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2016-11-21T02:58:29Z Lord_Nightmare: i think its more that he dug it out of the archives, and it hasn't been changed since 1985
2016-11-21T02:58:41Z Lord_Nightmare: not sure. its not a valid win32 executable i don't think?
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2016-11-21T02:59:15Z Zhivago: I guess that would be a better fit for a hobo lifestyle.
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2016-11-21T03:01:57Z Lord_Nightmare: well, he ran it through a hacked/broken/missing command interpreter 2001 cell phone which used an x86? cpu
2016-11-21T03:02:13Z Lord_Nightmare: see http://web.archive.org/web/20140107165859/http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/10gr05/lisp_based_operating_system_questionproposition/c6dl7s3
2016-11-21T03:02:43Z Lord_Nightmare: he since has deleted his account or been shadowbanned from reddit
2016-11-21T03:02:54Z Lord_Nightmare: so need to use the archive to see what he had posted
2016-11-21T03:05:09Z Lord_Nightmare: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB6HvhOw_MY is a demo of him using it in dosbox
2016-11-21T03:05:14Z Lord_Nightmare: so it clearly works, or worked...
2016-11-21T03:05:46Z Lord_Nightmare: the only string visible in the .exe is "Packed" so clearly there is a packer of some sort at work. i'm curious if i can get a depacked image by yanking it out of ram...
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2016-11-21T03:17:16Z akkad: is Common LISP Modules, AI in the era of neural networks and Chaos Theory worth it?
2016-11-21T03:17:21Z akkad: vs say PAIP
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2016-11-21T03:18:59Z eschatologist: Both are good.
2016-11-21T03:19:02Z eschatologist: They're differently good.
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2016-11-21T03:21:58Z akkad: have paip. was just curious how it compared
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2016-11-21T04:31:31Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-11-21T04:36:21Z beach: vtomole: Another reason for SICL is that, in order for it to be the basis of the LispOS I am thinking of, it needs features that no Common Lisp implementation currently has.  In particular first-class global environments: http://metamodular.com/environments.pdf
2016-11-21T04:38:47Z vtomole: I've read your LispOS paper multiple times, and it inspired me :). That is why I've been hacking Mezzano. I am sure you have played around with Mezzano, no?
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2016-11-21T04:39:32Z beach: Actually, no. :(  I haven't had time.  I have read about it though.
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2016-11-21T04:41:48Z beach: But thanks for reminding me.  I should understand how Mezzano is bootstrapped.  Because, in my back burner, I have a paper on bootstrapping Common Lisp.
2016-11-21T04:44:36Z vtomole: Yeah it has a full compiler that you can compile with SBCL  and it is written with 100 %  CL, I was able to compile SICL using the Mezzano compiler. You can use it for your LispOS so you won't start from scratch.
2016-11-21T04:45:24Z loke: vtomole: Mezzano is seriously impressive
2016-11-21T04:45:38Z loke: Speaking of that, did you see the Japanese Emacs clone in CL?
2016-11-21T04:45:46Z loke: it was on reddit today
2016-11-21T04:45:48Z vtomole: It has an irc client! It's awesome!
2016-11-21T04:47:00Z loke: vtomole: It's quite impressive indeed.
2016-11-21T04:49:26Z vtomole: I couldn't find the japanese emacs in r/lisp..
2016-11-21T04:51:09Z beach: Is this the Emacs clone? https://github.com/cxxxr/lem
2016-11-21T04:51:24Z loke: beach: Yes.
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2016-11-21T04:58:17Z vtomole: beach: This is the mezzano cl compiler: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano/tree/master/compiler, Join us on Mezzano if you have more questions!
2016-11-21T04:58:56Z beach: vtomole: Thanks.  I will probably do that.
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2016-11-21T06:23:47Z akkad: lem looks interesting
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2016-11-21T06:29:28Z akkad: hmm no run. undef buffer-head-line.
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2016-11-21T08:18:33Z younder: My ububntu 16.04 (packaged) lisp interface broke yesterday. Could be a discrepancy between sbcl, cl-swank and slime. Anyhow I building from the git repository instead. Wish me luck.
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2016-11-21T08:20:35Z younder seems to remember doing this years ago when he was more into Lisp.
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2016-11-21T08:23:32Z younder: Anyhow the emacs melba entry for slime is marked as obsolete. Will probaly installl that  from git as well,
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2016-11-21T08:25:04Z ryanbw: I think most people use cl-swank and slime from quicklisp these days.
2016-11-21T08:25:23Z younder: That leaves asdf and quicklisp
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2016-11-21T08:26:44Z younder: Hope I don't make to big a mess of things..
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2016-11-21T09:09:56Z younder: building sbcl.pdf failed, Skipping that.. no neccesary, I need man (texi) and html
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2016-11-21T09:59:06Z younder: Than god! It works again..
2016-11-21T09:59:25Z younder says a silent paraier of gratitude
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2016-11-21T10:13:18Z Cymew: Building sbcl docs need a shipful och tex/latex packages, but otherwise it's usually a breeze, in my experience.
2016-11-21T10:13:29Z Cymew: s/och/of/
2016-11-21T10:15:51Z younder: Cymew, Well I did a minimal install. So I am probaly missing a few. Mind you I have added considrably to the bas install.  I'll see if I can track down the packages.
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2016-11-21T10:29:31Z Cymew: I did like this "sudo dnf install -y texinfo-tex texlive" and it installed all I needed. I have no idea how much beyond what I needed! ;)
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2016-11-21T11:36:23Z flip214: somebody online who's working on http://quickdocs.org/uiop/? I get a 404 for the "run-program" link.
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2016-11-21T11:37:30Z flip214: Can UIOP start a program in the background, and leave the caller with a filehandle that's connected to the standard output, to see progress information?
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2016-11-21T11:53:26Z pipping: flip214: hi
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2016-11-21T11:55:38Z pipping: flip214: which CL implementation are you on?
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2016-11-21T11:57:17Z cromachina: you can try running it in another thread
2016-11-21T11:58:37Z flip214: cromachina: yes, of course I'll need a separate listener thread (or push the stream into some poll loop)
2016-11-21T11:59:07Z flip214: but I'm not sure uiop:run-program supports that - I'm under the impression it's a synchronous spawner
2016-11-21T11:59:12Z flip214: pipping: target would be sbcl
2016-11-21T11:59:53Z Shinmera: flip214: simple-inferiors can do that for you https://github.com/Shinmera/simple-inferiors
2016-11-21T12:00:20Z pipping: flip214: the public API on asdf 3.1.5 which is what your SBCL probably comes with does not allow you to spawn anything asynchronously
2016-11-21T12:01:03Z flip214: Shinmera: thanks, looking.
2016-11-21T12:01:10Z flip214: pipping: yeah, that's what I gathered
2016-11-21T12:01:10Z pipping: flip214: that said, this is an area of UIOP that I've been working on over the last few months and I'm quite happy with the results. the only issue you'll find is that that all of that is on the master branch of asdf; there hasn't been a release yet
2016-11-21T12:01:30Z flip214: Shinmera: "You may also pass a number to specify a custom buffer size" - does it block for that number of bytes, or will it give me fewer too?
2016-11-21T12:01:42Z flip214: pipping: well, how about doing one? ;)
2016-11-21T12:02:23Z Shinmera: flip214: It uses read-sequence in that case, which means the behaviour is up to the implementation. Most will block until it's filled or ends.
2016-11-21T12:02:47Z Shinmera: You can use the character-by-character copy, which is "as immediate as you can go", but wastes lots of cycles.
2016-11-21T12:02:55Z flip214: hmm, that's not so good. thanks anyway!
2016-11-21T12:03:01Z pipping: flip214: UIOP isn't released on its own; it's part of ASDF. And we (Fare, Robert, me) have been working on a new release for a while now. It might even come out this week, who knows
2016-11-21T12:03:51Z flip214: Shinmera: would it handle invalid UTF8, ie. let it through as with a (unsigned-byte 8) stream?
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2016-11-21T12:04:28Z pipping: flip214: that said, there have been releases since UIOP 3.1.5 but sbcl hasn't upgraded to that yet either. Not sure how eager they are to update.
2016-11-21T12:04:46Z Shinmera: flip214: It doesn't do any character handling or anything fancy. How invalid chars are treated or what you even read from the stream is up to the implementation, really.
2016-11-21T12:05:00Z flip214: pipping: yeah, please do! if it has that feature...   (upward-pointing thumb, but there's no UTF8 for that??)
2016-11-21T12:05:08Z flip214: Shinmera: thank you!
2016-11-21T12:05:20Z flip214: pipping: QL would bring a newer ASDF too, right?
2016-11-21T12:05:47Z pipping: flip214: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f44d/index.htm
2016-11-21T12:06:18Z Shinmera: flip214: QL does not ship the latest ASDF, no
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2016-11-21T12:06:33Z flip214: pipping: thanks... my kcharselect didn't find it ;(
2016-11-21T12:06:39Z flip214: Shinmera: what a pity.
2016-11-21T12:06:45Z pipping: quicklisp bundles an old version of ASDF and separately provides a UIOP package. I've never looked into if/how that works myself
2016-11-21T12:07:40Z Shinmera: It's up to your implementation or you yourself to get a recent ASDF
2016-11-21T12:09:09Z cromachina: http://asdf-devel.common-lisp.narkive.com/JkXDKVWX/understanding-uiop-run-program
2016-11-21T12:09:31Z cromachina: some suggestions to use another libs run-program, or uiop::%run-program
2016-11-21T12:10:13Z flip214: hmmm, I'm even using cl-asdf=2:3.1.7-1 via Debian ?!?!!
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2016-11-21T12:16:58Z _death: flip214: there's :wait nil and :output :stream, but I think the latter is not handled well by uiop, though it may have been in the past (the code is quite convoluted.. I'd use sbcl's run-program directly for now)
2016-11-21T12:17:51Z pipping: _death: uiop handles both of those
2016-11-21T12:18:37Z _death: pipping: like I said.. there's code to handle it.. but I think it's incorrect
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2016-11-21T12:19:59Z pipping: _death: oh, I missed the word "well" in "not handled well"
2016-11-21T12:20:20Z _death: just trying :output :stream on sbcl will expose the problem
2016-11-21T12:21:12Z pipping: _death: I'm not quite sure what you mean by "not handled well" tbh. Because :wait nil was simply "not handled" if you stick to public interfaces; neither was :output :stream iirc.
2016-11-21T12:21:23Z pipping: _death: but both are now.
2016-11-21T12:22:32Z _death: can you come up with a uiop version for (sb-ext:run-program "ls" '() :wait nil :output :stream :search t)
2016-11-21T12:23:08Z pipping: (uiop:launch-program '("ls") :output :stream)
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2016-11-21T12:23:57Z _death: pipping: (apropos-list "LAUNCH-PROGRAM") => nil ..
2016-11-21T12:24:03Z pipping: on 3.1.7 and earlier that'd have to be (uiop/run-program::%run-program '("ls") :output :stream) iirc
2016-11-21T12:24:11Z _death: I see
2016-11-21T12:24:25Z pipping: _death: as I said earlier, we're working on a new release.
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2016-11-21T12:27:32Z _death despises toplevel macros like with-upgradability :(
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2016-11-21T12:29:23Z pipping: I'm sure Fare would've preferred not having to use that, too.
2016-11-21T12:30:32Z _death: yeah, I know the rationale
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2016-11-21T12:35:38Z Xach: I also dislike the nesting macro.
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2016-11-21T12:37:31Z fe[nl]ix: Fare did it for a reason I disagree with
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2016-11-21T12:38:13Z fe[nl]ix: doing an online upgrade of ASDF from the implementation-supplied version is IMO a bad goal
2016-11-21T12:38:28Z fe[nl]ix: it complicates the whole code for little gain
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2016-11-21T12:39:03Z fe[nl]ix: the only two implementations that ship their own extensions, and would somewhat benefit from this, are ABCL and ECL
2016-11-21T12:39:04Z Shinmera: I also question whether it had to be done using a macro like that or if there are other possible ways to allow the on-the-fly upgrade.
2016-11-21T12:39:46Z fe[nl]ix: he tried other ways, it's just not easy without pulling the entire closer-mop as dependency
2016-11-21T12:41:03Z Shinmera: I see.
2016-11-21T12:41:29Z Shinmera: What about the commercial lisps, don't those ship ASDF too?
2016-11-21T12:41:42Z fe[nl]ix: yes, but only the vanilla ASDF
2016-11-21T12:41:47Z fe[nl]ix: not their own extensions
2016-11-21T12:41:53Z Shinmera: Ah.
2016-11-21T12:42:12Z fe[nl]ix: ABCL has a .jar delivery extension
2016-11-21T12:42:25Z fe[nl]ix: and ECL something similar for static compilation
2016-11-21T12:43:45Z jackdaniel: ECL doesn't ship extension since bundles were merged into ASDF
2016-11-21T12:44:18Z jackdaniel: afaikr Fare wants to get rid of part of it, but ECL won't upgrade in that case I think
2016-11-21T12:44:24Z jackdaniel: s/afaikr/afaik/
2016-11-21T12:45:15Z pipping: Xach: the nesting macro?!
2016-11-21T12:45:25Z pipping disagrees. (nest ...) is amazing.
2016-11-21T12:46:04Z _death: if you want to keep nesting and indentation under control, apply the principle of one function to a function
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2016-11-21T12:47:23Z Xach: pipping: that is why there is variety in this world
2016-11-21T12:49:01Z pipping: _death: I'm thinking about code like (nest #+foo (unless x) y)
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2016-11-21T12:51:23Z _death: pipping: I think the whole approach of having #+/#- spread around like that is misguided.. but it's easier to write that kind of code than come up with a cleaner, better way, and uiop is after all a portability system
2016-11-21T12:52:01Z pipping: _death: outside of a portability library I wouldn't want to see #+/#- used like that either
2016-11-21T12:52:35Z Xach: I like some aspects of my alternative and dislike others.
2016-11-21T12:53:16Z Xach: since quicklisp is not a portability library, there is a smaller surface area to deal with.
2016-11-21T12:56:08Z _death: pipping: just to be clear, uiop is useful and can mature into something nice.. I don't expect the code to be beautiful, and therefore am not disappointed ;)
2016-11-21T12:56:24Z pipping: _death: :)
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2016-11-21T12:57:23Z pipping: _death: for a mascot, I'd choose the spiderpig maybe.
2016-11-21T12:58:27Z _death: also, I should give quicklisp a reading sometime
2016-11-21T12:59:35Z _death: (last time was some years ago..)
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2016-11-21T12:59:44Z Xach: it hasn't changed a lot
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2016-11-21T13:01:31Z _death: ok, but for example I didn't know about ql-dist:clean
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2016-11-21T13:03:35Z _death: been using this old hack: http://paste.lisp.org/display/332117
2016-11-21T13:04:38Z Xach: ah
2016-11-21T13:04:57Z Xach: I should call clean automatically on update, but there is a bug on lispworks i have to fix
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2016-11-21T13:05:49Z younder: wb Xach, held a near monlogue earlier as I installed the git version of SBCL and SLIME. Got through it on a wing and a prayer. Luckely the documetation is good.
2016-11-21T13:06:23Z younder: Incedentally thannks for quicklisp. It has greatly simplified things.
2016-11-21T13:07:00Z flip214: Xach: as long as the cleaning doesn't involve something like "sudo rm -rf $SOME_PATH/" with SOME_PATH being empty....   as happened a few times in the past ;/
2016-11-21T13:07:52Z Xach: ouch
2016-11-21T13:11:22Z younder: well rm -rf is a sure thing. If a bit drastic.
2016-11-21T13:12:36Z Cymew: Installing sbcl and slime from git is easy. The only problematic part is you need to have a lisp to build sbcl.
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2016-11-21T13:14:02Z younder: Trying to provide support on #ubuntu I know how frustrating it can be to have incompete information and still try to give an atorative answer. One tends to strick with general recepies.
2016-11-21T13:15:55Z fe[nl]ix: flip214: rm -r ${SOMEPATH:-/dev/null}/
2016-11-21T13:16:11Z Cymew: Nice.
2016-11-21T13:16:32Z flip214: fe[nl]ix: you might be left with a multi-GB /dev/null file ....
2016-11-21T13:17:01Z flip214: :? might be a better choice here.
2016-11-21T13:17:05Z flip214: ${parameter:?word}
2016-11-21T13:17:08Z flip214:   Display Error if Null or Unset.
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2016-11-21T13:32:25Z axion: 'rm -rf --no-preserve-root /' would be needed in recent (more than 5 years ago) to recursively remove /
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2016-11-21T13:36:36Z younder: Incidenatlly the best command for erasing (securely)  is shred.
2016-11-21T13:36:54Z younder: in Ubuntu
2016-11-21T13:37:48Z younder: For a WHOLE devide!
2016-11-21T13:37:54Z axion: shred is part of coreutils and standard on probably all linux distributions
2016-11-21T13:37:56Z Cymew: Shred is not a canonical invention
2016-11-21T13:38:18Z antoszka: Shinmera: that portable emacs+cl+slime thing of yours is named/hosted where again, please? :)
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2016-11-21T13:38:33Z flip214: axion: even just wiping out $HOME is bad enough.
2016-11-21T13:38:54Z axion: very bad, if you are very bad. that is, no backups
2016-11-21T13:38:58Z antoszka: Shinmera: nvm, had problems googling it out, but found it now
2016-11-21T13:39:23Z younder: flip214,  You can (should)  use sync to back it up first
2016-11-21T13:42:17Z flip214: younder: "sync" won't create a backup... posix command line tool "sync", that is.
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2016-11-21T13:43:27Z younder: sorry rsync
2016-11-21T13:43:56Z Cymew: sync sync sync
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2016-11-21T13:44:45Z dlowe: Shinmera: The local-time object is a representation of a specific point in time, which is timezone-agnostic. You need timezones only when decoding, so functions which do so will take a timezone argument.
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2016-11-21T13:45:02Z younder: rsync is the cornerstone tool in linux backup systems like bacula
2016-11-21T13:45:20Z Cymew: yes?
2016-11-21T13:45:20Z dlowe: Shinmera: it initially did save the timezone, but that turned out to be so error-prone that it was removed.
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2016-11-21T13:56:02Z Xach: I have an asdf system and I'd like to not modify its source. Is there a way to wrap all compilation operations with some environment setup after the fact?
2016-11-21T13:56:12Z Xach: Like with some eql method, or by changing a slot in the system, or change-classing the components?
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2016-11-21T13:56:27Z Xach: What is the most advisable way to do it if I have an existing system file (and object)?
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2016-11-21T13:57:10Z rpg: Xach: You have an existing object, so ASDF won't know that the system has changed and won't recompile?
2016-11-21T13:57:18Z Xach: rpg: the system is not loaded yet.
2016-11-21T13:57:25Z Xach: e.g. i have the result of (asdf:find-system ...)
2016-11-21T13:57:30Z Xach: i.e.
2016-11-21T13:57:47Z rpg: I didn't fully understand what you meant by "object."
2016-11-21T13:58:27Z Xach: Ultimately I have a file on disk that I would prefer not to modify. I'm looking for ways to wrap the compilation of its file components with a special environment that does some stuff I need.
2016-11-21T13:58:37Z rpg: You could use an EQL method, but you would have to find all the child components, and define separate EQL methods on PERFORM COMPILE-OP, which would be a nuisance, I think.
2016-11-21T13:58:44Z Xach: A system file on disk.
2016-11-21T13:59:04Z rpg: CHANGE-CLASS would probably be the easiest, but note that how easy it is would probably be a function of how complex the system is.
2016-11-21T13:59:28Z Xach: It's not a very complex system. I think it has about 10 files and nothing complicated.
2016-11-21T13:59:38Z younder: Xach: so this is more of a snaboxed environment?
2016-11-21T13:59:39Z rpg: If you have modules, "find all the child cl-source components" would be a nuisance.
2016-11-21T13:59:44Z younder: sandboxed
2016-11-21T14:00:10Z Xach: younder: no. I am trying to compile and load a project that expects to be in Allegro in not-allegro.
2016-11-21T14:00:19Z younder: ah
2016-11-21T14:00:28Z Xach: And to avoid patches and forks and such I'd like to not modify the original sources of the Allegro-expecting project.
2016-11-21T14:00:54Z Xach: I've gotten pretty far in that quest, but so far I've ignored the system file and just loaded and compiled directly with my environment set up. Time to work with asdf.
2016-11-21T14:01:15Z rpg: Without trying it, my best guess would be that invoking CHANGE-CLASS on all the CL-SOURCE file children, and then defining a PERFORM COMPILE-OP :AROUND method would probably be the easiest way to go.
2016-11-21T14:01:53Z Xach: rpg: I'll give that a try.
2016-11-21T14:01:56Z rpg: [assuming that for some reason it's hands off the asd file, which would really be the easiest thing to do.]
2016-11-21T14:02:19Z Xach: rpg: if I changed the asd file, what change would I make? the default source class? (i can't remember the syntax)
2016-11-21T14:02:40Z rpg: Yes, I think it's :DEFAULT-COMPONENT-CLASS, but I can't swear to it.
2016-11-21T14:02:53Z younder: Yaeh I am lazy. I would just use a virual machine running allegro. The communicate ovet he lan I set up.
2016-11-21T14:03:31Z rpg: something that inherits from cl-source-file
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2016-11-21T14:03:49Z rpg is just going on memory, names might be garbled
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2016-11-21T14:04:26Z rpg: Xach: I have to go, but will be back off and on all day, if this advice turns out to be problematic.
2016-11-21T14:04:40Z Cymew: younder: Not suitable for this, if it's quicklisp related which I suspect it is.
2016-11-21T14:05:06Z Xach: Ah, this project uses a custom component class "CL-FILE" which adds the .cl suffix.
2016-11-21T14:05:26Z Xach: I suppose I could add an :around on that!
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2016-11-21T14:07:36Z Shinmera: dlowe: I see. Well, in my particular use-case I'm using a timestamp as documentation data and saving the timezone is important as I need to retrieve it again on printing. Since there are multiple timezones present in the dates, I can't just use a global one when serialising either.
2016-11-21T14:08:18Z Shinmera: dlowe: I've moved away from local-time now and just wrote a very simple class that keeps the data verbatim and serialises it verbatim.
2016-11-21T14:09:23Z Shinmera: antoszka: I'm going to be working on a new release with some fixes next week.
2016-11-21T14:09:30Z dlowe: Yeah, that's fair. I have another version of local-time that has both a timestamp type and a time representation type, but it's not ready yet.
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2016-11-21T14:10:05Z Shinmera: Context: it's for this: https://shinmera.github.io/els-web/ (whoah!)
2016-11-21T14:10:30Z Shinmera: Warning: site is not final yet
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2016-11-21T14:12:29Z dlowe: woo
2016-11-21T14:13:28Z Shinmera: Yeah, can't wait to have a mobile-usable, lisp-powered, somewhat-modern-looking ELS homepage.
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2016-11-21T14:15:59Z younder: well Huncentoot (apperenty a spider in a Zappa opera) has worked for a while now
2016-11-21T14:16:00Z _death: Shinmera: I'm missing the dates of the conference
2016-11-21T14:16:30Z Shinmera: _death: Good point.
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2016-11-21T14:17:39Z younder: By the way is Edi Weitz still in this group?
2016-11-21T14:17:46Z Shinmera: In what group?
2016-11-21T14:18:05Z younder: This chat cannel
2016-11-21T14:18:15Z Shinmera: I don't remember him ever being here.
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2016-11-21T14:18:41Z fe[nl]ix: younder: he's a busy man, with the university teaching and all :)
2016-11-21T14:19:05Z Cymew remembers he has not bought Edi's book yet
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2016-11-21T14:21:05Z Xach: I bought it and moved before it shipped. It ended up at my old house and the new owner kept it.
2016-11-21T14:21:22Z rpg: Xach: There's a built-in cl-file class, I believe, because the .cl suffix is not that rare. So you should make sure that you are not messing with the built-in one.
2016-11-21T14:21:42Z Cymew: Xach: I hope you sold to a lisper?
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2016-11-21T14:21:54Z _death: Xach: haha, that's one way to get more people into lisp :)
2016-11-21T14:22:10Z Cymew: I could imagine worse ways. ;)
2016-11-21T14:22:13Z younder: Well he uses LispWorks, he is probaly still in their mailinglist.
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2016-11-21T14:22:37Z Cymew: younder: Who?
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2016-11-21T14:22:46Z younder: Edi Witz
2016-11-21T14:22:51Z younder: Weitz
2016-11-21T14:22:54Z Cymew: Does it matter?
2016-11-21T14:23:30Z younder: Sort of, he is one of the best lispers amoug you
2016-11-21T14:23:43Z younder: amoung
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2016-11-21T14:24:57Z jackdaniel: how modest that you didn't include yourself in that group ;-)
2016-11-21T14:25:02Z younder: along with Peter Seibel, and Pascasl Bourmingon (if I spelled that right)
2016-11-21T14:25:02Z jackdaniel: btw, book is great, worth reading
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2016-11-21T14:25:33Z Cymew: younder: I mean, how does it matter to anyone if Edi is on LispWorks' mailinglist?
2016-11-21T14:25:45Z younder: jackdaniel,  No Xach is probly right that I am a pretensious bouffoon.
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2016-11-21T14:26:32Z jackdaniel: hard to disagree (:
2016-11-21T14:26:52Z flip214: Xach: in the ASD file, an ":around-compile (lambda (thunk) ... )" won't be good enough?
2016-11-21T14:27:42Z Xach: flip214: I am trying to do what I can without changing the asd source file.
2016-11-21T14:28:01Z younder: jackdaniel,  Never the less I am good at heart.
2016-11-21T14:28:24Z jackdaniel: I believe tehre are no bad people at all, just misguided
2016-11-21T14:28:30Z younder: jackdaniel,  I wish well I just get a bit overzellous.
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2016-11-21T14:30:43Z younder: Anyhow I am a old-timer, a bit rusty in Lisp so Ill try to keep my pretentions down.
2016-11-21T14:30:51Z flip214: Xach: I hoped that you'd be good with not modifying the _source_ files.... good luck, anyway!
2016-11-21T14:33:12Z _death: worst case, could define your own system file that transforms the original system definition.. yucky
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2016-11-21T14:34:14Z younder: Sounds like Xach has his work cut out for him
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2016-11-21T14:38:45Z flip214: Xach: you could define your own stream library that changes the asd file "on the fly" while it's being read by ASDF ;)
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2016-11-21T14:39:27Z younder: Well, we all have to eat our humble pie one in a while. I am trying to design a new typesyem. I wonder if I have bit off more than I can chew.
2016-11-21T14:39:38Z attila_lendvai: I'm  puzzled. defun* (cl-defun) seems to have no effect inside a slime contrib's .el file. any ideas what's going on? functions defined with defun are present, but not the ones with defun*
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2016-11-21T14:41:05Z younder: attila_lendvai, Within a package?
2016-11-21T14:41:17Z attila_lendvai: it's elisp code
2016-11-21T14:41:20Z loke`: Xach: I've been reading the scrollback, and I'm still wondering why oyu can't change the source?
2016-11-21T14:42:21Z Xach: loke`: I am trying to load an Allegro project in CCL. It is not my project. I don't want to fork the project or maintain parallel patches or anything like that. It is a matter of preference, not possibility.
2016-11-21T14:42:30Z younder: We all can change the source, but we get out of sync with original eventually. Not a good way to maintain code.
2016-11-21T14:42:40Z loke`: Xach: You want to QL-ise it?
2016-11-21T14:44:20Z Xach: loke`: not necessarily.
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2016-11-21T14:46:35Z younder still thinks Xach is excessivly harsh. I have NEVER been excluded from any othe group. I't's like he singled me out.
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2016-11-21T14:53:01Z _death: younder: maybe it's best to only share technical thoughts with the channel
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2016-11-21T14:53:22Z jackdaniel: younder: I think you strive for too much attention
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2016-11-21T14:55:49Z Cymew: How I wish ruby had :around methods some days...
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2016-11-21T14:57:28Z PuercoPop: attila_lendvai: have you cleaned the .elc files? If they are present the file itself is not loaded so newer modifications would be ignored
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2016-11-21T15:01:14Z attila_lendvai: PuercoPop: that was it, thanks! apparently the contrib .elc's are not handled well by slime. this contrib stuff always just caused me headaches... now, let's see why the swank side is complaining... :/
2016-11-21T15:02:12Z attila_lendvai: yeah, the swank side of the contrib is not loaded
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2016-11-21T15:08:01Z younder: Yes, the CLOS system and it's superiour control was one the things that attracted me to Lisp. I like the fact that methods's are seperate from objects. No need for friends.
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2016-11-21T17:25:47Z drmeister: Does anyone know if there are Common Lisp bindings for Wt (https://www.webtoolkit.eu/wt).
2016-11-21T17:26:06Z drmeister: Or are there similarly capable web toolkits for Common Lisp?
2016-11-21T17:26:42Z drmeister: Something that lets you write GUI type applications that run on a server and display on browsers.
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2016-11-21T17:28:29Z younder: I use a frontend to blink, the Chromium engine, and write a custom web interface. Over a socket.
2016-11-21T17:28:39Z drmeister: Because all this time I thought I wanted something like CommonQt for developing an app and I now realize what I may really want is CommonWt.
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2016-11-21T17:29:21Z younder: sur you don't mean ruby on rails?
2016-11-21T17:29:58Z drmeister: Does that serve this space?   I haven't paid attention to Ruby on Rails.
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2016-11-21T17:31:10Z axion: drmeister: there is ceramic, but this is for offline desktop web applications
2016-11-21T17:31:11Z drmeister: Can you do webgl with blink?
2016-11-21T17:31:28Z younder: Doesn't hurt to spend 10 minutes figuring it out.  http://rubyonrails.org/
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2016-11-21T17:36:37Z drmeister: I want to write a GUI for a molecular modeling application.  It will involve drawing molecules using OpenGL, doing geometry optimization on them, running calculations on them.  Everything to do the backend stuff is written in C++ and Common Lisp.
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2016-11-21T17:37:16Z drmeister: Ruby on Rails looks fine if I want to put together a blog or some kind of simple, low power app that talks to a database.
2016-11-21T17:37:36Z younder: drmeister, It is called webgl
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2016-11-21T18:04:18Z PuercoPop: drmeister: If you want widget centric, there is web-blocks, but widgets are not the usual way that web developers write UIs. If it is clasp specific, you could see if EQL runs in clasp. (It is a QT binding specifically for ECL)
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2016-11-21T18:19:27Z raydeejay: the name is not confusing at all... :D
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2016-11-21T18:30:51Z drmeister: Thank you.
2016-11-21T18:31:06Z drmeister: There is a QT binding just for ECL?   I did not know that.
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2016-11-21T18:37:46Z PuercoPop: drmeister: yes, it is not well known afaik. Also in the web camp, IIRC Kenny Tilton has a lisp wrapper for qooxdoo, which is a widget entry libraryfor HTML. It is not 'common' in the JS world but it has its fair share of users and the JS ecosystem is huge.
2016-11-21T18:38:21Z jackdaniel: EQL is nice, it provides even a special REPL for QT
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2016-11-21T18:39:43Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: I remember it also being easier to setup, something to do with not having to use moc to preprocess files? But I don't remember the specifics. Am I missremembering?
2016-11-21T18:40:46Z jackdaniel: I didn't have to setup anything afair, just issue make and run it
2016-11-21T18:43:10Z jackdaniel: btw, EQL is usable from any CL (experimental feature)
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2016-11-21T18:43:45Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: nice, I wasn't aware of that
2016-11-21T18:43:46Z jackdaniel: EQL acts as a server and is accessible via CFFI (but never used it)
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2016-11-21T18:46:41Z younder: NYC kenny is still around.
2016-11-21T18:47:10Z younder: SWIG still work?
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2016-11-21T19:24:07Z phoe: < jackdaniel> btw, EQL is usable from any CL (experimental feature)
2016-11-21T19:24:17Z phoe: geez, this looks so scary out of context
2016-11-21T19:24:32Z phoe: imagine writing CL with experimental equality
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2016-11-21T19:26:04Z younder: EQL is just EQ and equal to numbers even if they are pointers to numbers on the stack
2016-11-21T19:28:12Z White_Flame: (or heap)
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2016-11-21T19:34:18Z pipping: phoe: experimental feature: some objects are more EQL than others.
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2016-11-21T19:43:55Z rpg: pipping: That system should be called "Animal Farm."
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2016-11-21T19:46:17Z rpg: “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”
2016-11-21T19:46:34Z raydeejay: make the animals great?
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2016-11-21T19:47:18Z pipping: rpg: *cough* now you're explaining the joke :/
2016-11-21T19:47:44Z rpg: pipping: wasn't sure how universal was exposure to that book...
2016-11-21T19:49:54Z jackdaniel: second most famous book written by George Orwell, which put pigs as a symbol of lead revolutionists who betrayed their ideals
2016-11-21T19:50:42Z Josh_2: I think it's more to do with showing the fact that communism always fails because of corruption
2016-11-21T19:50:53Z jackdaniel: and became no different than the original oppressors (human)
2016-11-21T19:51:13Z Josh_2: Eggsactly
2016-11-21T19:51:33Z pipping: rpg: well, you also need to count people like me who try to get away with memorising just the key quotes and ideas without ever reading the actual book ;)
2016-11-21T19:51:34Z Josh_2: Very good book, I read it at school as part of the curriculum
2016-11-21T19:51:34Z jackdaniel: Josh_2: George Orwell was socialist who believed, that communism can be realised and that stalinism isn't communism at all
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2016-11-21T19:52:22Z jackdaniel: he has fascinating biography, his letters are also worth reading
2016-11-21T19:52:25Z raydeejay: communists are evil
2016-11-21T19:52:26Z rpg: jackdaniel: I think Orwell might be classified as a social democrat more than a communist, but I can't claim to be an expert.
2016-11-21T19:52:30Z raydeejay: everyone knows that...
2016-11-21T19:52:54Z pipping: oh boy, i've managed to get this channel talking about stalin /and/ trump. clearly that wasn't my intention :/
2016-11-21T19:53:26Z raydeejay: there's a significant historical figure that hasn't been mentioned and would make a nice triplet
2016-11-21T19:53:27Z jackdaniel: rpg: I think I can agree, but he also claimed what I have said (don't know if he believed that it *should* be realised though)
2016-11-21T19:53:30Z raydeejay: just saying...
2016-11-21T19:53:43Z shrdlu68: So...lisp?
2016-11-21T19:53:47Z Josh_2: I prefer lisp
2016-11-21T19:53:49Z raydeejay: λ
2016-11-21T19:53:59Z Josh_2: Prefer lisp to socialism/communism xD
2016-11-21T19:54:21Z jackdaniel: "All programming languages are turing complete, but some programming languages are more turning complete than others."
2016-11-21T19:54:24Z jackdaniel: ;D
2016-11-21T19:54:30Z jackdaniel: good night o/
2016-11-21T19:54:35Z younder: I think the whole world shuld be ruled by Xach
2016-11-21T19:54:37Z rpg: good night!
2016-11-21T19:55:04Z shrdlu68: That was the most horrifying book I ever read.
2016-11-21T19:55:36Z younder: I call it 'lambda the ultimate' ;)
2016-11-21T19:55:36Z jackdaniel adds younder to ignore list for his constant jibes targeted at Xach 
2016-11-21T19:56:16Z akkad hunts for the author of roswell
2016-11-21T19:56:36Z younder: As far as I can see his jabs have been targeted at me. But what do I know.
2016-11-21T19:56:37Z macdavid313: oh that's offensive ...
2016-11-21T19:57:05Z Josh_2: A jibe is also a boat maneuver as well
2016-11-21T19:57:36Z younder: I was trying to be funny. But whatever
2016-11-21T19:57:38Z pipping: akkad: Eitaro Fukamachi cannot typically found in #lisp I believe
2016-11-21T19:57:42Z pipping: +be
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2016-11-21T19:58:36Z younder: Anyhow glad to have CL working again
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2016-11-21T19:58:52Z younder: And eager to do some coding
2016-11-21T19:59:29Z younder: I take it SLIME is still the order of the day in SBCL circles
2016-11-21T19:59:49Z Josh_2: I'm using SLIME with my SBCL
2016-11-21T20:00:13Z younder: I see Ken Tilton shows up om my linkedin list
2016-11-21T20:00:14Z shrdlu68 mostly uses M-x run-lisp
2016-11-21T20:00:30Z younder: so some things must remain the same
2016-11-21T20:03:43Z younder: anyone still on that comp.lang.lisp egroup?
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2016-11-21T20:06:19Z younder: I miss Pascal Bougminoun and the other Pascal. Yu still have a (Peter Seibel) Gigamonkey around here?
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2016-11-21T20:06:48Z shrdlu68: Never seen one.
2016-11-21T20:07:27Z Josh_2: What happened to pjb?
2016-11-21T20:07:29Z younder: pity
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2016-11-21T20:07:37Z Josh_2: I spoke to him not too long ago on #clnoobs
2016-11-21T20:07:49Z Josh_2: or is that a different pascal?
2016-11-21T20:07:54Z schally: .join #clnoobs
2016-11-21T20:08:02Z schally: oops
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2016-11-21T20:12:13Z younder: Anyhow xach is right cl-store is the best thing to use to store Close  objects.
2016-11-21T20:12:16Z younder: Clos
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2016-11-21T20:15:54Z akkad: to serialize them. but  if you want fast means of interactively accessing them I recommend manardb
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2016-11-21T20:19:40Z younder: akkad, I'll keep that in mind
2016-11-21T20:20:17Z akkad: younder: using sbcl?
2016-11-21T20:20:22Z younder: yes
2016-11-21T20:20:32Z akkad: k
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2016-11-21T20:21:04Z akkad: yeah manardb is very fast on sbcl and supports multiple threads concurrently reading/writing.
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2016-11-21T20:25:20Z younder: Ok quickloaded it
2016-11-21T20:26:05Z younder: What is cl-irregsexp?
2016-11-21T20:26:52Z younder: Sounds like Edi Weitz's cl-regeexp, but..
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2016-11-21T20:36:17Z kami: Good evening.
2016-11-21T20:37:04Z pipping: good evening, kami.
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2016-11-21T20:45:32Z axion: younder: Peter doesn't hang around here anymore. He seems only to be pretty active on Twitter.
2016-11-21T20:45:59Z fiveop: A small puzzle: Why would (dotimes (a <k>) (declare (type (integer 0 <k-1>) a)) ...) cause problems? Took me a few minutes to figure out why this resulted in an endless loop (SBCL).
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2016-11-21T20:47:33Z younder: looks like a underflow
2016-11-21T20:47:44Z Shinmera: INTEGER is inclusive in range. SBCL might use modular arithmetic and the wraparound would lead to an infinite loop.
2016-11-21T20:48:23Z fiveop: k was 5 in my case
2016-11-21T20:49:03Z younder: what is e size again of an integer without tags in bits?
2016-11-21T20:49:09Z younder: the
2016-11-21T20:49:30Z fiveop: fixnum on 64 bit would be 63bit iirc?
2016-11-21T20:49:34Z fiveop: -?
2016-11-21T20:50:21Z younder: So no sign bit and no tag biits+
2016-11-21T20:50:36Z younder: ?
2016-11-21T20:50:52Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/+73MI
2016-11-21T20:51:28Z younder: woa
2016-11-21T20:51:30Z fiveop: 1 tag bit
2016-11-21T20:52:31Z younder: Blow me away maximais stil under developement
2016-11-21T20:52:37Z younder: maxima
2016-11-21T20:54:24Z aeth: Is there a way to properly print a plist as every two elements? e.g. for (list :foo 4 :bar 3 :baz 2 :quux 1) it would be (:FOO 4\n :BAR 3\n :BAZ 2\n :QUUX 1)
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2016-11-21T20:54:50Z aeth: Afaik, the line breaks are based on length and not semantics
2016-11-21T20:55:32Z sjl: the dotimes problem is that i actually takes on the value 5 at the end of the loop
2016-11-21T20:55:44Z sjl: but you've told the compiler that it's always in [0, 4]
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2016-11-21T20:55:54Z younder: aeth use format
2016-11-21T20:56:06Z younder: { }
2016-11-21T20:56:15Z sjl: so when sbcl compiles the (>= i 5) check for the end of the loop, it decides "welp i has to be between 0 and 4 so I guess this is always false"
2016-11-21T20:56:37Z younder: sjl,  true
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2016-11-21T20:57:48Z younder: aeth,like  (format nil "~{~s~*~^ ~}" '(:a 10 :b 20))
2016-11-21T20:58:04Z aeth: younder: This is for writing to a file. Using format to create a string and then writing that string just seems like the wrong way to do it when write looks like it might be able to do it.
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2016-11-21T20:58:13Z sjl: if you macroexpand it gets clearer, and if you compile the macroexpansion you get
2016-11-21T20:58:14Z sjl: ; in: LAMBDA ()
2016-11-21T20:58:16Z sjl: ;     (RETURN-FROM NIL (PROGN NIL))
2016-11-21T20:58:18Z sjl: ;
2016-11-21T20:58:19Z aeth: Yes, technically, I said "print" earlier because it's all the pretty printer
2016-11-21T20:58:20Z sjl: ; note: deleting unreachable code
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2016-11-21T20:59:32Z axion: aeth: if you must use print, something like this maybe (untested): (loop :for key :in '(:a 1 :b 2 :c 3) :by #'cddr :do (print key))
2016-11-21T20:59:59Z aeth: oh sorry, I'm not being clear enough
2016-11-21T21:00:10Z younder: axion, You pjb?
2016-11-21T21:00:10Z aeth: axion: I'm using #'write, which has as keys various pretty printing options
2016-11-21T21:00:25Z axion: younder: No
2016-11-21T21:00:27Z aeth: axion: like e.g. (length *print-length*)
2016-11-21T21:01:34Z younder: axion, You have them same bizarrre  ':'. Now we mustn't cluter the name space. Lets store them in the symbol space.
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2016-11-21T21:02:17Z axion: Cluttering the keyword package namespace is completely meaningless.
2016-11-21T21:02:26Z axion: As in, that statement makes no sense.
2016-11-21T21:02:34Z sjl: if everyone used the keywords there'd only be one copy of them
2016-11-21T21:02:43Z sjl: instead of an extra copy in every package
2016-11-21T21:03:13Z shrdlu68: aeth: Seems like some pretty printing control variable should do the trick.
2016-11-21T21:03:49Z fiveop: sil: yes, the compiler already caught it, by deleting all code following the loop (because of the never fulfilled condition)
2016-11-21T21:03:52Z younder: axion, But I said clutter tha package name space by allocating names in the keyword :name space
2016-11-21T21:04:27Z younder: ^ avoid cluttering
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2016-11-21T21:05:14Z younder: like old pjb. He was the only one that did that that I reall.
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2016-11-21T21:05:18Z younder: recall
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2016-11-21T21:08:05Z axion: if you were programmatically making the symbols, then interning too many of them in any package could result in a statement like that, but for human written ones, the concept of "unecessary pollution of the keyword package" is almost literally meaningless.
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2016-11-21T21:11:40Z aeth: haha, wow, I thought I could refactor what I was doing by directly saying ":case :invert" as a keyword for #'write but apparently that only recognizes :upcase, :downcase, and :capitalize so I have to keep creating a readtable for :invert, I guess
2016-11-21T21:11:55Z younder: (loop for x in 1 to 5 do  (writeln x))
2016-11-21T21:11:59Z axion: The reason I use keyword symbols for LOOP clauses is just so my syntax highlighting makes important symbols stand out as a different color from regular symbols such as the bindings or function names of the same form.
2016-11-21T21:12:28Z aeth: :capitalize isn't even a readtable case...
2016-11-21T21:12:30Z younder: axion, ok
2016-11-21T21:13:40Z younder: axion, I get it, you are more obsessed with patterns than the rest of us and probably a better programmer for it.
2016-11-21T21:13:51Z aeth: There are all these little contradictions in the spec that make CL an unnecessarily complex language (like e.g. nth being the opposite order than the other sequence accessors and gethash being the opposite order of gethash etc
2016-11-21T21:13:55Z aeth: )
2016-11-21T21:14:51Z aeth: oops, I said gethash twice, it should be gethash vs getf
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2016-11-21T21:15:09Z shrdlu68: aeth: Yes! I was thinking that too the other day.
2016-11-21T21:15:23Z aeth: And now apparently #'write using a different set of cases than readtable cases
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2016-11-21T21:17:05Z axion: Obsessed with patterns? Are you just trolling?
2016-11-21T21:18:16Z younder: axion,  a better programmer
2016-11-21T21:18:39Z younder: please read the whole sentence
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2016-11-21T21:19:29Z axion: I do not think I am better than anyone. Having used Lisp for 10 years exclusively, I am still, and probably forever will be, just scratching the surface.
2016-11-21T21:20:32Z aeth: axion: how do you get away with using it exclusively?
2016-11-21T21:20:48Z aeth: axion: and are you counting other Lisps like elisp?
2016-11-21T21:21:11Z fouric: younder: FYI, "obsession" comes off as a negative word generally, so even if the rest of your sentence conveys a different tone, it still sounds dismissive overall, even if that wasn't what you meant
2016-11-21T21:21:25Z axion: aeth: Easy. I use it as my hobby, and yes I am, because I recently switched to Emacs this past year, and even more recently began customizing that.
2016-11-21T21:21:49Z fouric: (and fwiw axion is generally pretty humble from what I've seen of them)
2016-11-21T21:22:19Z fouric: (many of us here, especially me, are still just feeling around in the Lisp universe)
2016-11-21T21:22:20Z aeth: axion: would you count Scheme as a Lisp in your Lisp exclusivity thing? And how do you handle having to use GLSL with OpenGL?
2016-11-21T21:23:05Z younder: fouric,  I am obsessive and I consider it my greatest strength. Regardless of your starts
2016-11-21T21:23:10Z younder: stats
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2016-11-21T21:23:26Z aeth: axion: oh, and how do you handle browsers requiring JavaScript, if you do?
2016-11-21T21:23:41Z axion: aeth: I would count it as a list, but not in my exclusivity, as I am only interested in Common Lisp. ELisp only because well my editor configuration is important.
2016-11-21T21:23:46Z axion: a lisp*
2016-11-21T21:23:58Z fouric: younder: yes, and it is certainly a very great strength in most cases, but from what I've seen of others, "obsessive" still comes across as negative for them, even if it doesn't for you :)
2016-11-21T21:24:01Z fouric: just so you know
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2016-11-21T21:24:24Z aeth: axion: what about shells? do you use an interesting Lisp shell? Or maybe SLIME as a shell or something? Or eshell in emacs? Or something else? Or do you just not count that as a language?
2016-11-21T21:24:46Z aeth: I'm trying not to be annoying, but I'm probably coming off as annoying, so sorry about that. I'm just wondering how you work around edge cases people tend to encounter
2016-11-21T21:24:47Z axion: aeth: Perhaps I wasn't clear. I program Lisp exclusively - not _use_.
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2016-11-21T21:27:27Z axion: aeth: Not annoying. Prior to CL, I come from many years of mostly shell and Python. I don't think I have written a shell script since aside what is commonplace in a terminal, if that counts...and surely not Python.
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2016-11-21T21:29:44Z younder: Well I came from a C++ environment. Browsers mostly,(opera) still wrk on then actually.
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2016-11-21T21:30:25Z aeth: axion: I was hoping you found exciting workarounds for (1) GPU shaders, (2) web browsers, (3) databases, (4) shells, etc. Probably transpiling for the first two and apps I'm not aware of for the second two. I understand if you didn't, I guess I just got excited that there was something that I was missing.
2016-11-21T21:30:42Z younder: Blink (that chromium browser) . I am wrinking o a MathML  insterface
2016-11-21T21:30:56Z younder: whatever
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2016-11-21T21:31:58Z aeth: axion: There are certain edge cases where a language is basically forced on someone, I didn't mean e.g. using Firefox means you use C++, I meant e.g. what would you use for deploying to a browser?
2016-11-21T21:31:59Z younder: Blink (that chromium browser) . I am working on a MathML  insterface
2016-11-21T21:32:18Z aeth: ugh, MathML
2016-11-21T21:32:41Z younder: yes, it's a ugnly sh**
2016-11-21T21:32:48Z aeth: Like all XML it's great in theory but then... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MathML#Presentation_and_semantics
2016-11-21T21:33:02Z aeth: content mathml is sort of lispy
2016-11-21T21:33:12Z axion: aeth: 1) Aha you found the exception which is GLSL, though psilord and I's library will be changing that soon to a algorithmic definition with Lisp. 2) I no longer do webdev, and I never did client-side scripting. 3) I no longer do webdev, where I only did SQL, 4) Just quick commands in a terminal.
2016-11-21T21:33:23Z younder: part of it is simular yes
2016-11-21T21:34:33Z younder: axion, I meerly needed efficient mathe editng in a browser
2016-11-21T21:34:51Z aeth: axion: I tried to transpile to GLSL but it was hard to just build a transpiler that only did the GLSL subset that I needed at the moment, and then add more to the transpiler as I needed it... Working like that doesn't really work well there like it does in most other parts of my game engine.
2016-11-21T21:35:30Z aeth: axion: What I'd love to see is |3b|'s effort have some sort of intermediate form of representing SPIR-V and GLSL that we can all target because I bet we're all going to bikeshed on the final syntax and where the shaders actually go in the program, but at least we could have the whole language roughly there
2016-11-21T21:37:30Z aeth: and hopefully the existing other efforts can be ported to that too like CEPL's Varjo
2016-11-21T21:37:32Z younder: aeth, what about weg-gl?
2016-11-21T21:37:52Z younder: you abmbitions sound like nvidea, I
2016-11-21T21:38:10Z axion: aeth: actually from what I hear, psilord and 3b are working on getting 3bgl-shaders ready for use with our utility library, but most of the work being done at this time is completely replacing glkit, which has a very bad design, and is actually quite wrong in a lot of places.
2016-11-21T21:38:40Z younder: OpenGLShaddowing Language
2016-11-21T21:38:47Z aeth: axion: I did consider switching to glkit but it didn't really look right. At one point I was going to use sdl2kit, mathkit, and possibly glkit
2016-11-21T21:39:14Z aeth: Instead, I just hardcode exactly what I need instead of trying to be flexible or use something that's flexible.
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2016-11-21T21:40:17Z aeth: I tried to switch to Varjo for my shaders but it was totally not a fit for the way my engine works and would require switching to another math library.
2016-11-21T21:40:19Z axion: aeth: It makes some very strong assumptions about data layout. For example, some situations are impossible and will result in a black screen. Also it does nothing to prepare the data for you. You still need to put it in the format it expects, which is actually quite a bit of your graphics code.
2016-11-21T21:41:13Z aeth: axion: yeah, formatting data is pretty hard, especially since there are so many formats and they're all very complicated... that's why I generate everything atm
2016-11-21T21:41:25Z axion: That and there are some things that are not implemented, namely block vbo layouts, and indexed arrays. technically there is a stub for indexed arrays, but it is not designed in anyway that will work without some major restructuring. glkit was good until I needed to do things correctly.
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2016-11-21T21:42:03Z aeth: axion: yeah, I think that's what made me not be able to use glkit
2016-11-21T21:43:08Z aeth: younder: Re webgl... The web isn't really a good platform to deploy to at the moment for this sort of thing. Especially because you either transpile to JavaScript or you compile to WASM, with the latter not giving access to garbage collection.
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2016-11-21T21:43:41Z axion: psilord and I have been writing this org document describing the api of a complete replacement for over a month now, and recently began writing the code.
2016-11-21T21:43:42Z aeth: I've wanted to make a browser game for a while but it's so far behind native it's sad.
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2016-11-21T21:45:31Z axion: and I mean just the VAO package of glkit. The shaders will come at a later time, when we get 3bgl ready.
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2016-11-21T21:46:44Z axion: It turns out, to make a complete and robust VAO library, a lot more work is involved than either of us imagined. But we would rather do it right, so no rush.
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2016-11-21T21:47:12Z axion: It didn't seem so at first, because we soon realized how wrong glkit was.
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2016-11-21T21:49:03Z younder: aeth, Well I have comlpined to whatwd. The guy's that implemet the browsers. Don't know what good it wil do tough.
2016-11-21T21:49:10Z younder: whatwg
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2016-11-21T21:49:45Z aeth: axion: right, that's why I'm making an opinionated engine rather than correct libraries
2016-11-21T21:49:52Z aeth: I go lower level than I want to, but it saves a lot of work
2016-11-21T21:50:38Z aeth: Also, I'm going to switch completely to cl-vulkan possibly as soon as 2018, so I'm not going to waste too much time on OpenGL stuff.
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2016-11-21T21:53:29Z younder: aeth,  Perhaps you would want to join the #whatwg newsgroup.. Then you can voice your opinions in a mdium wher they can be heard. (Just don't overuse it)
2016-11-21T21:53:31Z aeth: axion: you don't have to make a full VAO library if that's not what your goal is
2016-11-21T21:54:09Z aeth: younder: Unless I'm behind Unreal Engine or Unity 3D (and I'm not) they probably won't care
2016-11-21T21:54:11Z younder: aeth, https://whatwg.org/
2016-11-21T21:54:34Z younder: No but they are behing web-gl
2016-11-21T21:54:38Z aeth: The 0.5% complete CL game engine "Zombie Raptor" just doesn't have the same appeal for some reason
2016-11-21T21:54:54Z aeth: And I'm being very generous with the percentage
2016-11-21T21:54:54Z axion: aeth: a lot of people have some view of "simple" that doesn't invovle actual observance of the constraints required.
2016-11-21T21:55:36Z axion: that was glkit's problem. he left block "until later" and then discovered it was unimplementabel with what was written.
2016-11-21T21:56:31Z axion: glkit was what happened when something was difficult or too much work, and now we're rewriting it. We don't make the same mistake twice.
2016-11-21T21:58:07Z younder: axion, So you are writing a new gnome interface. Cool
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2016-11-21T21:59:20Z younder: The Qt interface isK , but it needs more work
2016-11-21T21:59:33Z younder: anyhow I always prefered gnome
2016-11-21T22:00:51Z malice: Is McClim able to compile from quicklisp? I'm trying to get it to work and I can't
2016-11-21T22:01:06Z malice: I did (ql:quickload '(:clim :clim-examples)) but it fails at ESA
2016-11-21T22:01:08Z Xach: malice: works on sbcl on linux 64.
2016-11-21T22:01:16Z Xach: malice: what platform are you using?
2016-11-21T22:01:19Z malice: Xach: that's what I've got
2016-11-21T22:01:24Z malice: amd64 sbcl gentoo
2016-11-21T22:01:26Z Xach: malice: how does it fail?
2016-11-21T22:01:56Z malice: complains about silica. Apparently there is something like silica::frame-input-buffer and some other things from silica called
2016-11-21T22:02:08Z malice: but I just grep'd the source dir and can't find any definitions
2016-11-21T22:02:10Z malice: or declarations
2016-11-21T22:02:18Z younder thinks this is a bad tim to say CLIM is obslete
2016-11-21T22:03:20Z malice: I can provide some more info if it's needed but I'm quite surprised
2016-11-21T22:03:27Z malice: since I can't really find any silica in there
2016-11-21T22:03:38Z malice: and ql:quickload :silica failed too
2016-11-21T22:03:44Z malice: (no such package)
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2016-11-21T22:04:16Z Xach: malice: can you paste the actual error?
2016-11-21T22:04:20Z Xach: to paste.lisp.org?
2016-11-21T22:04:54Z malice: please wait a second
2016-11-21T22:06:10Z malice: Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/+74A5
2016-11-21T22:06:41Z malice: Error happens when compiling #<CL-SOURCE-FILE "esa-mcclim" "esa">
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2016-11-21T22:13:59Z malice: Xach: any ideas? Can you reproduce the error?
2016-11-21T22:16:41Z neoncontrails: I have an array of arrays in the middle of my Clojure program, and I'm resurrecting some patterns I actually learned in Scheme to cdr down the list. I'm wondering something: typical Lisp implementations I think do not define a return value for (car [x] ) where x is an atomic datum, is that correct?
2016-11-21T22:17:07Z neoncontrails: Is there a good reason for that behavior?
2016-11-21T22:17:58Z younder: value(first second)
2016-11-21T22:18:28Z younder: (values first second)
2016-11-21T22:19:10Z younder: I'm a bit rusty, so take that with a grain of salt
2016-11-21T22:19:43Z Xach: neoncontrails: This channel is not for Lisp in general, but for Common Lisp. In Common Lisp, it is an error to use CAR on a non-list. A list is either a cons or NIL.
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2016-11-21T22:20:16Z Xach: I don't know of the history of that behavior.
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2016-11-21T22:20:48Z Fare: For lisp in general, try ##lisp
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2016-11-21T22:21:02Z Fare: or for clojure, #clojure
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2016-11-21T22:21:30Z Fare: multiple values work very differently in CL, Scheme, Clojure
2016-11-21T22:21:33Z neoncontrails: Right. That's my understanding, but what I'm curious about is whether it's sensible to override that behavior when implementing something like a traversal. (Return false instead of error if x is atomic, maybe?)
2016-11-21T22:22:14Z Fare: maybe you want side-effects, which in Clojure you can achieve using monads.
2016-11-21T22:22:15Z neoncontrails: This is definitely more of a Lisp question than a Clojure question. Forget I mentioned Clojure at all
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2016-11-21T22:22:36Z Fare: in CL, you have conditions and handlers for that
2016-11-21T22:23:19Z Fare: you can take the CAR of NIL, but not of other atoms.
2016-11-21T22:24:26Z xqbt: Hi, all! I am trying to pass some values from Lisp to C using CFFI. All works fine except I get an error when setf'ing: "The value -1.4253447252065907d0 is not of type SINGLE-FLOAT". How can I do the conversion?
2016-11-21T22:24:27Z malice: neoncontrails: I believe this depends on the algorithm. Usually when traversing the tree you first check for the type(list, atom, nil), and do proper action
2016-11-21T22:24:28Z neoncontrails: You're right, I do recall that. (Nil return value, right?)
2016-11-21T22:24:42Z Fare: xqbt: coerce
2016-11-21T22:24:44Z malice: xqbt: #'coerce
2016-11-21T22:25:06Z younder: (values) is nothing
2016-11-21T22:25:29Z Xach: malice: I get the error too. I don't know what's up. I'll check it out a bit later - time for food here.
2016-11-21T22:25:46Z Xach: younder: Your silence would be better than your guesses.
2016-11-21T22:25:59Z younder: thx
2016-11-21T22:26:08Z malice: Xach: I'll probably leave the channel by then, but thanks for caring.
2016-11-21T22:26:47Z malice: neoncontrails: are you actually trying to achieve something, or just wondering about how things work?
2016-11-21T22:26:48Z Fare: malice: clim is maintained these days, fire email to the mailing-list
2016-11-21T22:26:54Z xqbt: Fare, malice: works like a charm, thank you!
2016-11-21T22:27:10Z younder: seriously, I am rusty, my consideration may be faulty, keep tat in mind
2016-11-21T22:27:12Z Fare: (though it could probably use more funding for full time maintenance)
2016-11-21T22:27:59Z malice: Fare: actually I'm thinking of issue on github
2016-11-21T22:28:05Z malice: xqbt: np
2016-11-21T22:28:53Z younder: Nevertheless I did install sbcl and slime from git today
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2016-11-21T22:29:01Z neoncontrails: malice: post-order traversal, but it's the first time I've attempted to slay that problem using car/cdr to traverse
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2016-11-21T22:30:28Z malice: neoncontrails: this may not be the best way to learn it... but you may want to download Paul Graham's book "On Lisp". There's a chapter where he explains some tree traversals
2016-11-21T22:30:34Z malice: but in a more generic way(macro writing)
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2016-11-21T22:31:14Z malice: neoncontrails: imho from the design point of view considering rewriting a function(if that's what you meant) is a bad idea; you just want to use the function differently, not use a different function, and god forbid you from redefining it for everything else
2016-11-21T22:31:33Z neoncontrails: Neat. I've really enjoyed skimming that book, maybe I'll dive into that chapter more deeply
2016-11-21T22:31:55Z malice: neoncontrails: from my experience the book can be hard to digest, but some chapters might give you insight if you need to get into some topic
2016-11-21T22:32:11Z younder: Ah that lazy implementatin
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2016-11-21T22:33:33Z younder: I was thinking more like that series by Ritchard Waters
2016-11-21T22:33:52Z neoncontrails: malice: well I'm slightly availed of, ah, 'malicious intent' ;) w/r/t overwriting a basic primitive function, since my Lisp doesn't have car/cdr. This question came up while writing those definitions
2016-11-21T22:34:22Z younder: It's a bit anciant, but most simular to te'Haskell'way
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2016-11-21T22:34:44Z malice: neoncontrails: then it depends on your lisp, I guess. I don't know what you're using but I like that you get an error when using car/cdr on non-list in CL
2016-11-21T22:34:50Z neoncontrails: It seems like returning false instead of error could give a better approximation of sentinal values
2016-11-21T22:34:50Z malice: makes typing consistent
2016-11-21T22:35:40Z malice: neoncontrails: depends on the lang. In CL nil is both false and an empty list, and this makes some algorithms work nicely, but at the same time you have to know what this NIL means(often means both things)
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2016-11-21T22:36:15Z malice: But I prefer errors and rescuing them than error-checking.
2016-11-21T22:36:52Z younder: malice: the worst cas is for hashes when you don't know is the returned value is nil if if it failed t find it
2016-11-21T22:37:21Z younder: sou you need to return a tuple after all
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2016-11-21T22:38:59Z neoncontrails: That's a fair point. In CL as with other Lisps one *could* define a named instance of nil, or the empty list, and just check if those objects are materially equal
2016-11-21T22:39:29Z raydeejay: well, there's &optional default
2016-11-21T22:39:56Z raydeejay: granted, you still need ONE value to represent missing-key, so it depends on what kind of values you expect
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2016-11-21T22:42:07Z malice: younder: you can provide default value
2016-11-21T22:42:42Z malice: and yeah, you have this second return value
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2016-11-21T22:43:02Z neoncontrails: raydeejay younder: that is a good point. Is (define the-empty-list '()) still a useful pattern in modern lisps? (Enabling the predicate test that checks whether the two objects are aliases of the same address)
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2016-11-21T22:47:27Z younder: My intuition is just that nil has to subclasses, empty and a not-found or something like that
2016-11-21T22:47:28Z malice: neoncontrails: if you want to learn Common Lisp, which I encourage you to do, I suggest reading Practical Common Lisp
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2016-11-21T22:47:55Z malice: And with this happy accent I'm leaving, good night everyone!
2016-11-21T22:48:27Z younder: nighty, malintent
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2016-11-21T22:50:18Z neoncontrails: malice: unfortunately my problem domain is the front-end, so cljs is about as close to Common Lisp as I can feasibly get
2016-11-21T22:51:41Z younder: neoncontrails, mallice has left us
2016-11-21T22:51:50Z neoncontrails: Alas
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2016-11-21T22:53:04Z neoncontrails: How true is that in 2016, though -- has Common Lisp made any strides in the last few years toward a browser-based dialect?
2016-11-21T22:55:30Z neoncontrails: I've seen a site or two that used Racket, although I think that was purely server-side, and more of a proof of concept than an argument for using Racket to make web pages
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2016-11-21T22:58:32Z younder: Anything can make web pages, tese days. I use PHP
2016-11-21T22:58:59Z raydeejay: I'd rather use BASIC
2016-11-21T22:59:01Z younder: I have used Hunchentoot in the past
2016-11-21T22:59:23Z neoncontrails: *web apps. Server side is one thing (you can use anything) but frontend heh
2016-11-21T23:00:21Z younder: I may have metioned ruby earlier. It beig OOO and functional.
2016-11-21T23:00:38Z younder: and rails is kick ass
2016-11-21T23:01:07Z younder: Popular only net to python these days
2016-11-21T23:01:11Z younder: next
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2016-11-21T23:02:48Z younder: I am hetrogeous language wise, There are a lot out there.
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2016-11-21T23:03:59Z younder: The perfect app for CL for me is ALLEGRO's data-mining app.
2016-11-21T23:04:10Z younder: CLOS is really col.
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2016-11-21T23:04:42Z younder: cool
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2016-11-21T23:06:04Z neoncontrails: There are. I'd be stoked if any of those languages had robust dialects that transpile to JS, but for some reason that remains a pretty rare feature in languages today?
2016-11-21T23:07:32Z younder: Coffee is also cool. Atom was written mostly in that.
2016-11-21T23:07:47Z younder: It trancsribes to JS.
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2016-11-21T23:08:50Z neoncontrails: truth. Fun fact I learned the other day: both Coffeescript and Clojurescript had their origins at the NYTimes
2016-11-21T23:09:55Z sjl: neoncontrails: there's https://github.com/jscl-project/jscl though I'm not sure of its status
2016-11-21T23:10:16Z sjl: seems to have recent activity though, which is a good sign
2016-11-21T23:10:23Z neoncontrails: And remain the only two languages I can think of that transpile to JS. I've often wondered why that is
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2016-11-21T23:11:52Z neoncontrails: (if lack of interest, plain and simple? Or real genuine limitations to what a language that compiles to JS can o)
2016-11-21T23:12:15Z shrdlu68: Which is the "Let over Lambda" of CLOS?
2016-11-21T23:12:46Z shrdlu68: i.e a book dedicated to showcasing the advanced features of CLOS.
2016-11-21T23:13:07Z sjl: shrdlu68: probably The Art of the Metaobject Protocol
2016-11-21T23:13:34Z shrdlu68: sjl: cool, let me check it out.
2016-11-21T23:13:36Z sjl: though not strictly about CLOS itself
2016-11-21T23:13:36Z White_Flame: neoncontrails: there's Typescript, Parenscript, that I know of by name, and I know there's more I don't recall names for
2016-11-21T23:13:54Z younder: Still showcasing that ancient book by sonya
2016-11-21T23:14:03Z akkad: younder: allegro datamining app being allegrocache?
2016-11-21T23:14:29Z younder: no allegro-graph ontop of allegro-cache
2016-11-21T23:14:59Z akkad: allegro graph is a differfent app from allegro cache
2016-11-21T23:15:03Z sjl: Keene's book is great too, but it's more like Practical Common Lisp than like Let Over Lambda
2016-11-21T23:15:14Z akkad: one is a graph db, the other an persistent object store
2016-11-21T23:15:24Z shrdlu68: I'm not used to code running without putting up some resistance.
2016-11-21T23:15:49Z sjl: neoncontrails: there's also Parenscript, or https://github.com/Gozala/wisp if you're a clojure person
2016-11-21T23:15:58Z younder: Let over lamda is a sel published book. Not function of the same editing standards as say pCL.
2016-11-21T23:16:18Z younder: Though he spells beter than me
2016-11-21T23:16:21Z sjl: neoncontrails: https://github.com/jashkenas/coffeescript/wiki/list-of-languages-that-compile-to-js
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2016-11-21T23:21:59Z younder: My bokshelf contains 'the art of meta object protoco', Object oriented progrmming in commonlisp', 'Artificial intelligence programming', 'lisp in small peaces' and 'let over lambda'
2016-11-21T23:22:37Z younder: oh and PCL
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2016-11-21T23:25:22Z younder: You wouldn't go half wrong getting a few of those
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2016-11-21T23:25:44Z younder is close to 50
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2016-11-21T23:29:40Z pillton: They are all really good books. (I haven't read let over lambda).
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2016-11-21T23:32:17Z shrdlu68: Lispers have so many books to choose from. cltl too.
2016-11-21T23:33:59Z shrdlu68: I just started LOL.
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2016-11-21T23:38:33Z shrdlu68: Well, good night.
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2016-11-21T23:39:47Z jasom: I didn't read all of LoL, but what I read was a good learning experience for me, even if much of it I consider "Look at this cool thing you can do with macros, and if you do it your coworkers will hate you."
2016-11-21T23:40:30Z jasom: I have used macrology techniques I learned there in more reasonable things that just wouldn't make good short examples, so I'm not saying I could teach it better.
2016-11-21T23:43:48Z akkad: co
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