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2016-09-09T00:22:56Z pillton: Damn page faults.
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2016-09-09T00:25:39Z drmeister: Ha!
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2016-09-09T00:30:30Z drmeister: Is there an idiom for pushing a value directly into a list in the value of a hash-table association?
2016-09-09T00:30:50Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/RNDdvSw3/
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2016-09-09T00:31:24Z drmeister: Is it legit to say (push h (gethash neighbor attached))
2016-09-09T00:31:27Z Bike: sure
2016-09-09T00:31:29Z pillton: Yeah.
2016-09-09T00:31:40Z Bike: push works on places, not just variables, like verything else
2016-09-09T00:32:08Z Bike: so... (push h (gethash (chem:bonded-neighbor h 0) attached)) i guess.
2016-09-09T00:32:58Z drmeister: So even if there isn't a key value pair?   Testing...
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2016-09-09T00:34:00Z pillton: That is what the default value is for.
2016-09-09T00:34:02Z Zhivago: It defaults to nil, which is a list.
2016-09-09T00:34:07Z drmeister: Ok, awesome.
2016-09-09T00:34:54Z drmeister: Thanks folks.
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2016-09-09T00:38:07Z drmeister: That gives me this:
2016-09-09T00:38:09Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/yF05vXWa/
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2016-09-09T02:09:37Z akkad: https://gist.github.com/0041ab200fae95dd22fcdf1e76c9093f how radioactive is this?
2016-09-09T02:11:19Z Bike: i'd use mapc for mapcar and destructuring-bind for let but otherwise it seems fine?
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2016-09-09T02:13:55Z akkad: k thanks. just seeking feedback.
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2016-09-09T02:20:46Z akkad: cool. works
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2016-09-09T02:29:15Z akkad: should be using alist. but is alist atomic?
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2016-09-09T02:44:40Z |3b|: make sure you trust the TABLE argument before building SQL out of it
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2016-09-09T02:58:30Z drmeister: Bike: re: The changes that you made to Cleavir - are there changes that I'll need to make to Clasp to make them work?
2016-09-09T02:58:42Z drmeister: There was talk about replacing fixnump with typeq
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2016-09-09T03:16:38Z jasom: akkad: data structures aren't atomic, operations are atomic
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2016-09-09T03:17:39Z Zhivago: Data structures may be atomic -- but it's another dimension of indivisibility.
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2016-09-09T06:02:12Z jasom: Anybody know how to capture the output of a program that returns non-zero error status with uiop:run-program
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2016-09-09T06:04:30Z pillton: Does it not capture it when :ignore-error-status t ?
2016-09-09T06:05:04Z jasom: it does, and I now see that I can get the error status as the third value
2016-09-09T06:05:50Z jasom: what I was hopping for is :error-output t would output to *error-output* before raising the error
2016-09-09T06:05:58Z jasom: but I can manually raise the error myself I suppose
2016-09-09T06:06:36Z pillton: I'd probably submit a bug.
2016-09-09T06:07:49Z jasom: It would also be nice if :error-output t output directly to *error-output* on lisps that support it
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2016-09-09T06:13:11Z pillton: I'd probably submit a bug report to the lisps that don't support it.
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2016-09-09T06:46:46Z Grue`: akkad: what's the point of "order by id" if you end up putting everything into an unordered hash table anyway
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2016-09-09T09:48:59Z pipping: jasom: so you'd like :output t to be equivalent to :output *standard-output* and :error-output t to :error-output *error-output*?
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2016-09-09T09:50:13Z raydeejay: it would be nice if T/*standard-output* were consistent
2016-09-09T09:53:22Z pipping: jasom: btw, cl -l sbcl --require uiop '(uiop:run-program "ls /does-not-exist" :ignore-error-status t :error-output :interactive)'
2016-09-09T09:53:36Z pipping: jasom: prints 'ls: cannot access '/does-not-exist': No such file or directory' for me
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2016-09-09T10:30:09Z zalipuka: hi. could anybody explain me what is going on: (defpackage 'parser1 (:use 'cl 'cl-user)) -> The value 'CL is not of the expected type (OR STRING SYMBOL CHARACTER). Well, what the type it than?: (type-of 'cl) -> SYMBOL . I'm confused.
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2016-09-09T10:32:31Z fe[nl]ix: zalipuka: defpackage is a macro and it doesn't evaluate its arguments
2016-09-09T10:32:56Z fe[nl]ix: drop the quote
2016-09-09T10:33:57Z zalipuka: fe[nl]ix: um, thanks. but wtf the error message don't tell it :(
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2016-09-09T10:35:09Z fe[nl]ix: the error message is correct, though a bit obscure
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2016-09-09T10:35:29Z Grue``: you should use keywords, like (:use :cl :cl-user)
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2016-09-09T10:35:40Z Grue``: then it doesn't matter if its evaluated or not
2016-09-09T10:36:54Z Grue``: the error message says "value 'CL", which should be understood as "value (QUOTE CL)", which is a list
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2016-09-09T10:37:52Z zalipuka: Grue``: thanks
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2016-09-09T10:54:15Z zalipuka: is there are enums in lisp?
2016-09-09T10:54:36Z Zhivago: Probably.
2016-09-09T10:54:45Z jackdaniel: there is a library for enums afair
2016-09-09T10:55:19Z zalipuka: jackdaniel: well, enums in in the language?
2016-09-09T10:55:23Z zalipuka: not
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2016-09-09T10:55:50Z Zhivago: What, fundamentally, is an enum?
2016-09-09T10:55:50Z jackdaniel: in CL (thanks to it's syntax) that doesn't make much of a difference
2016-09-09T10:56:56Z JuanDaugherty: an abbreviation of "enumeration"
2016-09-09T10:57:18Z Zhivago: Well, CL supports abbreviations, so all is well.
2016-09-09T10:57:28Z jackdaniel: ^_^
2016-09-09T10:57:31Z JuanDaugherty: :)
2016-09-09T10:59:05Z zalipuka: lol
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2016-09-09T11:00:17Z Grue``: in Lisp people usually use symbols themselves instead of some sort of numbers with names
2016-09-09T11:01:11Z Zhivago: grue: I think that defconstant would like to disagree with you there.
2016-09-09T11:02:32Z Grue``: I don't use defconstant though. if you want to change the constant, it's a PITA. so it's defparameter all the way
2016-09-09T11:03:21Z Grue``: I meant like the wikipedia example of enum, clubs=0, diamonds=1, hearts=2, spades=3
2016-09-09T11:03:32Z Grue``: in Lisp, you'd use :clubs :diamonds :hearts :spades
2016-09-09T11:04:04Z Zhivago: You might, or you might write a macro to generate four defconstants, which would be more useful if you actually cared about those numbers.
2016-09-09T11:04:58Z zalipuka: I might use keywords, but enum should be typesafe
2016-09-09T11:05:00Z Grue``: but the entire point of enum is to work with words instead of actual numbers
2016-09-09T11:05:24Z Grue``: which could be anything
2016-09-09T11:05:40Z Zhivago: Well, some people think that the point is to work with numbers via meaningful names.
2016-09-09T11:05:58Z Zhivago: But since the querant was unable to tell us what he meant by enums ...
2016-09-09T11:05:59Z varjag: not in case with c enums
2016-09-09T11:06:44Z varjag: there, enums are indeed makeshift symbols
2016-09-09T11:07:10Z varjag: sure they are numbers underneath, but so is everything there
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2016-09-09T12:16:57Z zalipuka: is there are substring function?
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2016-09-09T12:17:24Z zalipuka: when the start and end positions are known
2016-09-09T12:17:36Z zalipuka: (substr start end)
2016-09-09T12:17:47Z zalipuka: or I need to write one :)
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2016-09-09T12:19:20Z Xach: zalipuka: subseq is it
2016-09-09T12:19:44Z zalipuka: Xach: thanks!
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2016-09-09T12:40:56Z Grue``: zalipuka: worth to check out the sequences dictionary in hyperspec. all those functions work on strings
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2016-09-09T12:49:45Z zalipuka: Grue``: yeah
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2016-09-09T13:26:38Z raydeejay: .burn Techjar
2016-09-09T13:26:54Z raydeejay: sorry, wrong channel... (I blame helm)
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2016-09-09T13:57:58Z shrdlu68: "You need ASDF >= 3.1 to load this system correctly"
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2016-09-09T13:58:39Z shrdlu68: I get that after a quicklisp update, SBCL.
2016-09-09T13:59:16Z shrdlu68: My sbcl is version 1.1.18, which is the highest available on Gentoo.
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2016-09-09T14:01:10Z shrdlu68: I could download and compile sbcl from source, if that'll solve the issue...
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2016-09-09T14:07:37Z Xach: That will solve the issue.
2016-09-09T14:07:44Z Xach: shrdlu68: 1.1.18 is very, very old.
2016-09-09T14:09:12Z loke`: "very
2016-09-09T14:09:36Z Xach: so old it has a long, white beard
2016-09-09T14:10:20Z loke`: Mon Apr 28 08:57:52 2014
2016-09-09T14:10:23Z loke`: To be prceise
2016-09-09T14:10:35Z shrdlu68: Hehe, whoever maintains SBCL for Gentoo is the criminal.
2016-09-09T14:10:57Z loke`: shrdlu68: SBCL on all distributions are severely out of date.
2016-09-09T14:11:13Z shrdlu68 proceeds to uninstall distro-provided sbcl
2016-09-09T14:11:20Z loke`: I think it's because pretty much no one in the Lisp community uses the distribution's versions of any Lisps
2016-09-09T14:11:53Z loke`: shrdlu68: You need a CL (possibly an older version of SBCL) to compile the latest SBCL from source,
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2016-09-09T14:14:07Z ukari: does lisp1 need a gensym?
2016-09-09T14:14:15Z shrdlu68: Why? It also points to the wrong core file, so there's an error on startup and I had to symlink /usr/lib/sbcl with /usr/lib64/sbcl
2016-09-09T14:14:32Z shrdlu68: Why don't people use the distro-provided lisps?
2016-09-09T14:14:49Z shrdlu68: loke`: Does it take long to compile?
2016-09-09T14:15:06Z Xach: shrdlu68: Few distros seem to keep them very up-to-date.
2016-09-09T14:15:21Z loke`: shrdlu68: No. I think my workstation does it in roughly 5 minutes. A slower machine like my 5 year old MacBook Air takes 15 minutes I think.
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2016-09-09T14:16:15Z Xach times a fresh build
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2016-09-09T14:16:21Z loke`: shrdlu68: If you have an older SBCL installed (the only thing the distro version is good for) all you have to do is to geit clone the latest SBCL version, run ./make.sh --fancy
2016-09-09T14:16:30Z loke`: wait a few minutes and then type ./install.sh
2016-09-09T14:16:44Z loke`: After that you can remove the distro version of SBCL and be happy using the latest version.
2016-09-09T14:17:11Z zalipuka: is there are macrolet* ?
2016-09-09T14:17:27Z loke`: zalipuka: No.
2016-09-09T14:17:33Z zalipuka: :(
2016-09-09T14:17:37Z loke`: But you can build it yourself i fyou really need it.
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2016-09-09T14:19:00Z shrdlu68: loke`: Nah, very straight-forward the way you describe it.
2016-09-09T14:20:17Z zalipuka: macrolet rocks!
2016-09-09T14:20:59Z loke`: (defmacro macrolet* ((&rest defs) &body body) (if defs `(macrolet (,(car ,defs)) (macrolet* (,(cdr defs)) ,@body)) `(progn ,@body)))
2016-09-09T14:21:09Z loke`: I think that should work. Maybe. Completely nontested
2016-09-09T14:21:54Z Grue``: macrolet sux actually. local macros are kinda hard to debug, and rarely needed
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2016-09-09T14:22:21Z loke`: Grue`: I agreww with you.
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2016-09-09T14:22:43Z loke`: SYBOL-MACROLET though, pretty useful inside macros. :-)
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2016-09-09T14:22:53Z loke`: Actually MACROLET can also be useful in other macros.
2016-09-09T14:23:20Z shrdlu68: More out of curiosity: Is SBCL built upon C? Does it use gcc? gas? Do they hand-code syscalls in assembly? Do they use libc?
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2016-09-09T14:24:30Z loke`: shrdlu68: There is a small core written in C.
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2016-09-09T14:24:36Z shrdlu68: The availability of SBCL on linux on different architectures is impressive.
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2016-09-09T14:24:56Z loke`: shrdlu68: That includes the garbage collector. Pretty much everythign else is in Lisp.
2016-09-09T14:25:11Z loke`: I was told that th ereason the GC is in C is to make it easier to debug.
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2016-09-09T14:28:54Z shrdlu68: loke`: Fascinating.
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2016-09-09T14:32:12Z loke`: shrdlu68: It's a very interesting implementation do dig into.
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2016-09-09T14:32:37Z loke`: For example, you can implement new compiler optimisations on the fly using a single command.
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2016-09-09T14:34:18Z shrdlu68: I wish there were a sort of graph that explains all its different components.
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2016-09-09T14:34:53Z loke`: shrdlu68: There are some papers written on the subject. And the older documents written for CMUCL are still applicable.
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2016-09-09T14:48:54Z shrdlu68: Compiled in 18m52.985s
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2016-09-09T14:55:03Z zalipuka: it is possible to expand a macro into a normal-clause of the CASE ?
2016-09-09T14:55:53Z zalipuka: like that (defmacro my-special-case (param) `(..........)) (case form (my-special-case ...
2016-09-09T14:56:36Z oGMo: er, no, that wouldn't be case then would it .. perhaps use COND?
2016-09-09T14:57:22Z zalipuka: oGMo: well, yes
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2016-09-09T14:59:15Z zalipuka: oGMo: although, my macrolet is already generates the (case code :)
2016-09-09T14:59:19Z zalipuka: oGMo: :(
2016-09-09T14:59:37Z zalipuka: but it unuseful
2016-09-09T15:00:39Z zalipuka: like that       (macrolet ((case-error-when-tag-invalid (tag)  (let* ((tag-str (string tag)) (tag-str-len (length tag-str))) `(,tag  (case state-pos ,@(loop  for i from 1 to (1- tag-str-len) and char across tag-str
2016-09-09T15:02:10Z zalipuka: it seems to me that the entire CASE should be moved into the macrolet body
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2016-09-09T15:02:29Z zalipuka: not so good thought
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2016-09-09T15:03:30Z pipping: shrdlu68: gentoo has a gentoo-lisp overlay: https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/lisp.git/tree/dev-lisp/sbcl
2016-09-09T15:04:10Z oGMo: zalipuka: it sounds like you're doing something wrong heh
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2016-09-09T15:04:24Z pipping: shrdlu68: I'm surprised the sbcl version they have there is rather old, too
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2016-09-09T15:04:49Z shrdlu68: Didn't know about the overlay.
2016-09-09T15:05:02Z zalipuka: oGMo: I'm trying to get rid of boilerplate
2016-09-09T15:05:03Z pipping: shrdlu68: (exherbo is in a far better state: http://git.exherbo.org/lisp.git/tree/packages/dev-lang/sbcl hint-hint)
2016-09-09T15:05:42Z zalipuka: oGMo: the boilerplate is only in CASE
2016-09-09T15:06:04Z oGMo: zalipuka: (unless (invalid-tag-p tag) (case tag ...)) and if you really do that so much you suffer from boilerplate, then make (tag-case ..) or something
2016-09-09T15:06:43Z Xach: I forgot I was building. It took 3m29.188s on my system.
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2016-09-09T15:19:26Z shrdlu68: pipping: Still trying to figure out exactly what it is. Is it an overlay?
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2016-09-09T15:22:07Z pipping: shrdlu68: nope. it's another distro that's rather close to gentoo. so that doesn't help you all that much, sorry; just couldn't resist pointing it out.
2016-09-09T15:22:50Z shrdlu68: pipping: Oh, it's a distro!
2016-09-09T15:23:34Z pipping: shrdlu68: that's http://exherbo.org
2016-09-09T15:23:49Z shrdlu68: Wow I've never heard of it. Is it lispy?
2016-09-09T15:24:03Z shrdlu68: I saw a wm written in lisp...
2016-09-09T15:24:14Z zalipuka: how to see expansion of the macrolet?
2016-09-09T15:24:52Z pipping: shrdlu68: nope, no more lispy than gentoo
2016-09-09T15:25:41Z pipping: shrdlu68: there are a few window managers written in lisp, actually. stumpwm probably being the most widely used
2016-09-09T15:27:08Z pipping: clfswm is another in cl
2016-09-09T15:27:46Z shrdlu68: I should think so, I've thought of writing one myself :D
2016-09-09T15:28:46Z pipping: I think there's enough WMs by now, I'd rather discourage you from embarking on writing another from scratch ;)
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2016-09-09T15:30:14Z shrdlu68: Yeah, there's other things one could do, like creating FFI bindings for libnettle. Just an example...
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2016-09-09T15:38:33Z pipping: shrdlu68: what do you need that's provided by libnettle and none of these: http://www.cliki.net/cryptography ?
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2016-09-09T15:38:46Z Gamosh: hi
2016-09-09T15:41:37Z pipping: shrdlu68: if you're comfortable in that field, the most useful activity might be extending ironclad. (can't say if it'd be fun, too)
2016-09-09T15:44:12Z Gamosh: I'm new to free node, can somebody tell me why nobody is talking? is it usually like this or am I doing something wrong?
2016-09-09T15:44:16Z Gamosh: freenode*
2016-09-09T15:44:33Z H4ns: all is well.
2016-09-09T15:44:41Z zalipuka: bye bye
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2016-09-09T15:47:05Z slyrus: any cl-postgres users around?
2016-09-09T15:47:24Z akkad: no
2016-09-09T15:47:27Z akkad: postmodern yes
2016-09-09T15:47:28Z slyrus: :(
2016-09-09T15:47:35Z shrdlu68: postmodern
2016-09-09T15:48:41Z slyrus: I would be using postmodern (or mito) if I could figure out how to do what I want in cl-postgres. I don't really want to be down at this level, but cl-postgres doesn't seem to have support for row types.
2016-09-09T15:49:01Z slyrus: well, it returns a string, which doesn't get the benefit of the field translation that it does for non-row type values
2016-09-09T15:49:13Z slyrus: trying to make that stuff work recursively is making my head spin
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2016-09-09T15:54:56Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-09-09T15:56:01Z Gamosh: Hello!
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2016-09-09T15:59:56Z beach: I have been working some more on chapter 8 of this document: http://metamodular.com/second-climacs.pdf
2016-09-09T16:00:04Z beach: Please let me know what you think.
2016-09-09T16:00:23Z beach: Chapter 8 starts on page 37 (page 41 according to the PDF reader).
2016-09-09T16:00:57Z beach: Next I will work on the update procedure, and I will illustrate it with the running example.
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2016-09-09T16:08:25Z Gamosh: what editors do I use if I want to code scheme? vim or emac?
2016-09-09T16:08:46Z beach: Gamosh: This channel is for Common Lisp.
2016-09-09T16:08:57Z beach: You might want to ask in #scheme.
2016-09-09T16:09:26Z Gamosh: yeah sorry, nobody is active there. What if I want to do so in Common Lisp, can I use any of the two editors for it?
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2016-09-09T16:10:42Z beach: Sure.  The question is how much help you want in your coding.
2016-09-09T16:11:05Z beach: Most people here would recommend Emacs.  But there are quite a few who use vim as well.
2016-09-09T16:11:19Z jasom: Just to share my success, I have gotten a nix expression for commonqt (and all it's recursive dependencies) generated with zero manual input now.
2016-09-09T16:11:55Z Gamosh: so how does it exactly work. Do I get Emac, write the code, save the file, and run in it some common lisp interpreter?
2016-09-09T16:12:06Z beach: jasom: Congratulations!  Not that I know what `nix' is though.
2016-09-09T16:12:22Z beach: minion: Please tell Gamosh about SLIME.
2016-09-09T16:12:23Z minion: SLIME: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/SLIME
2016-09-09T16:12:29Z jasom: Gamosh: Emacs has a plugin that basically turns it into a lisp IDE
2016-09-09T16:12:33Z jasom: Gamosh: the name of it is slime
2016-09-09T16:12:54Z Gamosh: oh okay, thanks :)
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2016-09-09T16:13:15Z jasom: Gamosh: it lets you (among other things) compile individual files, enter code into a REPL, and inspect backtraces without leaving emacs
2016-09-09T16:13:40Z Gamosh: Awesome
2016-09-09T16:13:49Z jasom: Gamosh: which OS are you on?
2016-09-09T16:14:09Z Gamosh: I'm using ubuntu
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2016-09-09T16:14:25Z Gamosh: running on chromebook
2016-09-09T16:14:40Z jasom: Gamosh: okay, so the easiest way to get started is to install sbcl and emacs via apt, then use quicklisp to install slime
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2016-09-09T16:15:24Z Gamosh: what is sbc1?
2016-09-09T16:15:42Z jasom: Gamosh: SBCL not SBC1 (I use caps to help show the difference)
2016-09-09T16:15:48Z jasom: "Steel Bank Common Lisp"
2016-09-09T16:15:56Z jasom: http://sbcl.org
2016-09-09T16:16:30Z Gamosh: okay, will do, thanks a lot :)
2016-09-09T16:19:25Z beach: Gamosh: Just so you know, most modern Common Lisp systems are not implemented as interpreters.  They compile on the fly.
2016-09-09T16:19:26Z beach: I am saying that because people often confuse interactivity and interpretation.  So since interpreters are typically slower than compilers, they think that just because there is a REPL (Read Eval Print Loop) they think things must be slow.
2016-09-09T16:20:13Z jasom: Gamosh: https://phab.jasom.org/F10 has a script that can automate installation of quicklisp and slime once you have emacs and sbcl installed from apt
2016-09-09T16:20:21Z jasom: Gamosh: run as your user (i.e. no sudo)
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2016-09-09T16:20:55Z Gamosh: thanks beach
2016-09-09T16:21:10Z Gamosh: also, a noob question, how do you guys link the name of the person you're talking to?
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2016-09-09T16:21:34Z beach: Gamosh: Like this, with a colon after the handle.
2016-09-09T16:21:43Z jasom: Gamosh: Usually type the first part of their name and hit <TAB> and it will add the colon and space automatically
2016-09-09T16:21:58Z Gamosh: jasom: okay, ty
2016-09-09T16:22:10Z jasom: This depends on the client.  Most clients will higlight lines in which your nickname appears anywhere Gamosh
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2016-09-09T16:22:32Z Gamosh: seems mine does not
2016-09-09T16:22:46Z beach: Get a better IRC client.
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2016-09-09T16:23:21Z jasom: qwebirc
2016-09-09T16:23:25Z jasom: is what he's using now
2016-09-09T16:23:42Z jasom: on Chrome/52.0.2743.116
2016-09-09T16:23:53Z Gamosh: yeh, not usuing a client
2016-09-09T16:23:56Z jasom is surprised the full browser string comes through on a version request
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2016-09-09T16:25:40Z jasom: konversation and hexchat are probably the two most noob friendly clients for linux
2016-09-09T16:26:06Z Gamosh: why use a client anyways?
2016-09-09T16:26:41Z beach: Er, so that you can have completion and your handle highlighted?  I thought that is what we said.
2016-09-09T16:26:44Z jasom: Gamosh: more features; in particular I like the logging.  There is a web client that does fancy stuff with presence and logging, but I don't recall the name.  I think drmeister uses it
2016-09-09T16:27:16Z jasom: https://www.irccloud.com/ <-- there it is
2016-09-09T16:27:32Z Gamosh: okay, thx
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2016-09-09T16:29:38Z jasom: I think the free version disconnects you if you're idle for 2 hours; (irccloud is a Freemium commercial product)
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2016-09-09T16:35:05Z pipping: beach: "The children are represented in the order they were encountered in the buffer. This order may be different from the order in which the corresponding expressions appear in the expression resulting from the call to the reader".
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2016-09-09T16:35:36Z beach: pipping: Yes?
2016-09-09T16:35:57Z pipping: beach: is that just because you would not want anyone to rely on that so that you're more flexible in the future or do you already have an example in mind where one would want that?
2016-09-09T16:36:35Z beach: I don't have a choice.  Someone can write a reader macro that does this: (let ((x (read)) (y (read))) (list y x))
2016-09-09T16:36:39Z jasom: Simple way to print all slots of a standard-object (kind of like a describe that doesn't truncate the output)?
2016-09-09T16:36:59Z pipping: beach: ah, I see. thanks.
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2016-09-09T16:37:36Z beach: jasom: You need to use the MOP.
2016-09-09T16:37:58Z jasom: beach: which would be why I couldn't find a way in the clhs.  Thanks
2016-09-09T16:38:06Z beach: mop class-slots
2016-09-09T16:38:07Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-slots.html
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2016-09-09T16:39:21Z jasom: heh, I suppose I could check every existant symbol with slot-exists-p :)  That would get all slots with interned names
2016-09-09T16:39:44Z beach: Hmm. :)
2016-09-09T16:39:51Z beach: ... or, you can use the MOP. :)
2016-09-09T16:40:02Z jasom: yeah
2016-09-09T16:40:29Z jasom: bah, I forgot, I can't use slot-value anyway because it's not a standard-object, but rather a condition.
2016-09-09T16:40:48Z beach: Oh well.
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2016-09-09T16:51:01Z jasom: I am annoyed enough with M-. not working on sbcl for non-toplevel DEFUNs that I might actually dig through the sbcl code to do something about it
2016-09-09T16:51:28Z jasom: it's absurd that I can use "v" from a callstack to jump directly to a lambda, but not to a non-toplevel DEFUN
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2016-09-09T16:56:12Z oGMo: jasom: that does seem rather odd
2016-09-09T16:56:19Z pipping: beach: one probably shouldn't strip unnecessary whitespace from a larger cl project, turning it into a single line, and then start editing it with climacs-2, hm?
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2016-09-09T16:57:18Z raydeejay: now you made me think of the good old Brøderbund Banner, pipping...
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2016-09-09T16:58:55Z pipping: beach: when you say 'modifications to a buffer are reported ...', this refers to reports that would occur after every keystroke, a specified time, when saving, or something that is intentionally left open at this point?
2016-09-09T16:58:57Z jasom: raydeejay: as in stuff you would generate with The Print Shop?
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2016-09-09T17:00:24Z raydeejay: yeah, similar, but Banner Mania was just about banners
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2016-09-09T17:49:48Z pipping: jasom: do you know about uiop/run-program::%run-program?
2016-09-09T17:51:11Z pipping: jasom: run-program is mostly a wrapper around that which handles turning stream output into strings if requested and turning a non-zero exit status into an error
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2016-09-09T17:53:19Z beach: pipping: Right, you would want to limit the width of your lines to something smaller than that.
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2016-09-09T17:54:53Z beach: pipping: Typically, modifications are reported for every keystroke, provided that the keystroke modified something in the buffer.  It has to do with this protocol: http://metamodular.com/cluffer.pdf
2016-09-09T17:59:02Z pipping: [..] In particular, the protocol is divided into an edit protocol and an update protocol, designed to be executed at different frequencies [..] -- I guess that answers my question.
2016-09-09T18:00:28Z beach: For example, if you execute a keyboard macro, then the edit protocol functions will be invoked for each individual recorded keystroke, but the update protocol will be invoked only once.
2016-09-09T18:01:15Z beach: Same thing if you delete a region.  Then the edit protocol functions will be invoked for each item in the region, but the update protocol will be invoked once.
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2016-09-09T18:05:01Z pipping: right, that makes sense. There could be a huge discrepancy between the two.
2016-09-09T18:05:20Z beach: Exactly.  That's why I designed it that way.
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2016-09-09T18:10:30Z beach: I need to go, but I'll read the logs in case there are other questions or remarks.
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2016-09-09T18:15:09Z jasom: pipping: I'm well aware, but I would like the default behavior of run-program to change, as it's used in a lot of places in code I don't plan on changing.
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2016-09-09T18:17:30Z pipping: jasom: Alright. I'm afraid changing the default will not really be an option for exactly that reason: the current behaviour is well-established and relied on at this point. The only way forward I see would be additional options or new functions
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2016-09-09T18:17:45Z jasom: pipping: or adding a slot to the condition object?
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2016-09-09T18:18:25Z jasom: pipping: IIRC stderr always goes to either a file or /dev/null, so in the former case the condition object could be taught about the file
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2016-09-09T18:19:23Z pipping: Actually, it can also go to either pre-existing streams or streams that are only constructed on demand.
2016-09-09T18:19:58Z jasom: pipping: internally I'm pretty sure it goes to a file, then gets sent to the stream on success.  I know it works this way always on sbcl
2016-09-09T18:20:32Z jasom: this is why no output gets sent to *error-output* if an error is signaled, when :error-output t is passed.
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2016-09-09T18:22:30Z pipping: Maybe. But then, how would I know what e.g. LispWorks does internally?
2016-09-09T18:22:51Z pipping: The bigger question is: You don't want all of the error output but just the "end" somehow, no?
2016-09-09T18:22:55Z jasom: pipping: I mean internal to uiop; there's a tempfile explicitly created and passed to the implementation.
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2016-09-09T18:23:45Z jasom: pipping: yes, typically the usefulness of the error output is proportional to its position in the error output, but not always (e.g. the first compiler error is often the most important because the compiler is in a GIGO state after it)
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2016-09-09T18:24:28Z pipping: jasom: right, and the error-output could be arbitrarily long. You wouldn't want all of that to go into the condition, would you?
2016-09-09T18:25:06Z jasom: pipping: well since it appears (again I may be mistaken and some of this is under a #+sbcl, but so far I don't think so) that uiop will always create a temp file if :error-output is non-nil, we don't need all of it in the condition.
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2016-09-09T18:29:47Z jasom: hmmm
2016-09-09T18:30:05Z jasom: it actually appears to be different depending on whether a string or a list is passed; that's really odd.
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2016-09-09T18:30:50Z jasom: (uiop:run-program "echo hi >&2; false" :error-output t) ; No output
2016-09-09T18:31:06Z jasom: (uiop:run-program '("/bin/sh"  "-c" "echo hi >&2; false" ) :error-output t) ; "hi\n" on *error-output*
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2016-09-09T18:35:52Z jasom: pipping: this would seem to imply to me that whether or not output is propagated to a stream is not well defined by the interface, so changing it to always propagate should be a safe change.
2016-09-09T18:36:07Z jasom: obviously just because it's not well defined doesn't mean people aren't relying on it though.
2016-09-09T18:36:33Z pipping: yeah, that's rather nasty.
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2016-09-09T18:38:30Z pipping: LispWorks doesn't print the 'hi' in either case btw.
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2016-09-09T18:44:17Z jcowan: Is the :include option for structures actually useful in a CLOS world?  I can see using structures as a lightweight mechanism for product types with slot names, but I can't think of a plausible use case for :include as opposed to going to CLOS.
2016-09-09T18:45:01Z pipping: jasom: so according to the way %active-io-specifier-p is implemented, on cmucl, sbcl and scl, streams are taken to be wrappers around file. on other lisps that might not be so.
2016-09-09T18:45:08Z pipping: +s
2016-09-09T18:45:20Z jasom: ah
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2016-09-09T18:45:39Z H4ns: jcowan: even though opionions on the matter differ, it is mine that structures should just be ignored.
2016-09-09T18:46:53Z pipping: in particular, this means that streams on clozure cl require manual slurping.
2016-09-09T18:47:05Z mood: Structures are great if performance is a priority, but they have many downsides
2016-09-09T18:47:59Z jasom: jcowan: I agree with everything you said after the question-mark.  I think :include predates clos.
2016-09-09T18:47:59Z pipping: that said, this part of run-program is one I'm not familiar with. I spend 99% of my time dealing with asynchronous processes, thus %run-program :wait nil, and thus none of what we're currently talking about
2016-09-09T18:48:24Z jcowan: H4ns: Thanks.
2016-09-09T18:48:41Z jcowan: jasom: It definitely does.  Structs were in CLTL1, CLOS was not.
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2016-09-09T18:55:52Z PuercoPop: mood: but in general performance is not a concern. Also that structures have better performance is an implementation detailed (helped by their semantics, such as redefinition has undefined consequences). But in theory there is no reason why one couldn't build an Object system on top of the CLOS to allow similar performance or different optimizations. Then again from practice to theory there is quite a stretch
2016-09-09T18:56:32Z jackdaniel: if speed is a concern: https://github.com/guicho271828/inlined-generic-function/
2016-09-09T18:56:59Z mood: PuercoPop: The amount of indirection involved in CLOS (+MOP) makes it extremely hard to optimize as fully as structures
2016-09-09T18:57:10Z mood: (Though I must say I'm not much of an expert in this area)
2016-09-09T18:57:31Z jackdaniel: mood: check out inlined-generic-functions – you develop with normal clos, and when done – you distribute as inlined-generic-functions
2016-09-09T18:59:35Z PuercoPop: mood: I'm thinking of using the MOP to restrict those semantics. Clearly redefining slots and classes is a problem
2016-09-09T19:00:07Z mood: jackdaniel: I've seen that before, looks awesome
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2016-09-09T19:06:45Z jasom: also, I think beach is working on a way to make generic functions fast without sacrificing correctness
2016-09-09T19:07:32Z jasom: If you preserve the code and compilation environment for each method, then you can recompile the dispatch function every time there is a method added/redefined.
2016-09-09T19:08:02Z jcowan: Sounds like a win to me
2016-09-09T19:08:05Z jasom: If you generalize that and allow inlining functions that may be redefined by doing the same, then you can inline the dispatch function and use type analysis to have essentially zero overhead in many cases.
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2016-09-09T19:09:20Z jasom: jcowan: obviously it requires the implementation to have a way of storing global environments.  I'm also not sure what the space overhead is for doing this either.
2016-09-09T19:10:05Z jcowan nods.
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2016-09-09T19:29:25Z pipping: jasom: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/blob/master/uiop/run-program.lisp#L933-936
2016-09-09T19:30:17Z pipping: jasom: that explains the difference between the string and the list: the string causes %system rather than %run-program to be used
2016-09-09T19:30:50Z pipping: the control flow in uiop/run-program is at times not immediately obvious
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2016-09-09T19:33:37Z pipping: jasom: I think I see a way to address the race between the condition and the output. Will report back.
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2016-09-09T19:42:03Z myrkraverk: Should this work?  As in, not throw an error?
2016-09-09T19:42:05Z myrkraverk: (read-from-string "(foo" :eof-error-p nil)
2016-09-09T19:42:13Z myrkraverk: It throws me into the debugger in SBCL.
2016-09-09T19:43:53Z jasom: myrkraverk: that should throw an error
2016-09-09T19:44:08Z jasom: clhs read-from-string
2016-09-09T19:44:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_fro.htm
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2016-09-09T19:45:04Z myrkraverk: Then I am misunderstanding "If eof-error-p is false and if the end of the substring is reached, eof-value is returned. "
2016-09-09T19:45:28Z jasom: in that case eof-error-p is :eof-error-p which is not false
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2016-09-09T19:45:56Z jasom: and in any event  If the end of the supplied substring occurs before an object can be read, an error is signaled if eof-error-p is true. An error is signaled if the end of the substring occurs in the middle of an incomplete object.
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2016-09-09T19:46:32Z jasom: so (read-from-string "   " nil) wil return nil, but (read-from-string "(foo" nil) will signal an error
2016-09-09T19:46:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: minion: memo to shrdlu68: Actually, gentoo's sbcl package is fairly uptodate, you just have to unmask it https://packages.gentoo.org/packages/dev-lisp/sbcl
2016-09-09T19:46:41Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell shrdlu68 when he/she/it next speaks.
2016-09-09T19:46:44Z myrkraverk: Ah.
2016-09-09T19:47:14Z jasom: so there were two problems with your original attempt
2016-09-09T19:47:31Z myrkraverk: So If I want to read user supplied strings "sanely" I have to catch that error, I gess.
2016-09-09T19:47:53Z myrkraverk: jasom: yeah.
2016-09-09T19:47:55Z jasom: pipping: "the control flow in uiop/run-program is at times not immediately obvious" no kidding; and it's made worse with M-. being completely broken for debgging uiop on sbcl
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2016-09-09T19:49:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: debian testing also packages sbcl 1.3.7 . . .
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2016-09-09T19:55:58Z pipping: jasom: what do you think about https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/merge_requests/8?
2016-09-09T19:56:47Z pipping: jasom: All the relevant changes are in https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/commit/bf0fa81653f077e9c6be81a783e7771697e7ad3c
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2016-09-09T19:57:57Z pipping: fiddlerwoaroof: what's the status of the gentoo-lisp overlay? I was a bit confused to see 1.2.6 in there, is that behind the main tree then?
2016-09-09T19:58:16Z pipping: fiddlerwoaroof: oh, shiny new package.g.o look
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2016-09-09T19:59:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know much about gentoo at all, I was just reading above about people complaining about outdated distro sbcl and I pointed out that you can get an uptodate one
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2016-09-09T20:00:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: For some reason, gentoo hasn't unmasked a recent sbcl, so emerge sbcl gives you sbcl 1.1.18
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2016-09-09T20:00:53Z scymtym: jasom: iirc, stas recently fixed M-. for non-toplevel def{un,method,…}
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2016-09-09T20:02:03Z pipping: fiddlerwoaroof: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=574134#c5 seems relevant
2016-09-09T20:05:12Z jasom: pipping: I think it's brilliant
2016-09-09T20:05:20Z jasom: scymtym: great!
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2016-09-09T22:04:08Z pillton: jasom: That dispatching procedure you described above is what I do in: https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store .
2016-09-09T22:05:08Z pillton: jasom: Every you time you add a "method" it rebuilds a decision tree.
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2016-09-09T22:34:10Z vapid: can you actually return code that you build up somehow and eval them later / print the built expression out in lisp?
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2016-09-09T22:34:53Z pillton: (print `(lambda (x) (1+ x)))
2016-09-09T22:35:26Z pillton: (compile nil '(lambda (x) (1+ x)))
2016-09-09T22:35:44Z pillton: (coerce '(lambda (x) (1+ x)) 'function)
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2016-09-09T22:39:55Z Fare: pipping: hi
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2016-09-09T22:53:54Z Aeoremund: Hello, I am looking for a low-level lisp dialect. I'm looking for something that is semantically C with runtime metaprogramming. Any ideas?
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2016-09-09T22:54:56Z Aeoremund: I need to interface with a number of C functions and memory management needs to be explicit.
2016-09-09T22:55:20Z arpunk: Aeoremund: https://github.com/tomhrr/dale
2016-09-09T22:55:44Z Fare: Aeoremund, I saw a Lisp-syntax rust-inspired thing generating C code, recently
2016-09-09T22:56:09Z Fare: rust itself has macros, btw
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2016-09-09T22:57:19Z Aeoremund: Rust's macros are compile time.
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2016-09-09T22:57:34Z Aeoremund: Dale looks pretty much what I'm after.
2016-09-09T22:58:40Z Aeoremund: I effectively need to generate optimised algorithms for datastructures that are implied by the shape of the data being processed, fun problems :-)
2016-09-09T22:58:43Z Fare: if you want runtime metaprogramming...
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2016-09-09T23:08:35Z jasom: Aeoremund: you can do very low-level stuff with common-lisp, including manually managing memory and calling C functions...
2016-09-09T23:08:56Z jasom: Aeoremund: semantically C and run-time metaprogramming are opposing goals
2016-09-09T23:09:41Z jasom: Aeoremund: I mean I suppose you could compile to a DLL and load it, but you can generate C for that from any language
2016-09-09T23:10:26Z Aeoremund: jasom: I am considering a lisp so I don't have to go through the trouble of generating LLVM, but that is indeed my alternative option right now.
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2016-09-09T23:17:28Z pipping: Fare: hi
2016-09-09T23:18:10Z pipping: jasom: merged https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/merge_requests/8 now.
2016-09-09T23:18:27Z Fare: thanks
2016-09-09T23:18:57Z Fare: do you want to look at dk's patches about bundle-op ?
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2016-09-09T23:21:59Z pipping: If you want a second opinion, sure.
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