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2016-09-06T00:31:35Z fouric: Question: is there a way to make "read" automatically create missing packages for symbols where the requisite package doesn't exist?
2016-09-06T00:32:16Z Bike: no. are you trying to compensate for reading code for systems that haven't been loaded yet?
2016-09-06T00:32:48Z fouric: I'm trying to read the contents of arbitrary lisp files, which often have systems that haven't been loaded
2016-09-06T00:32:56Z fouric: ...so yes, sort of?
2016-09-06T00:33:24Z fouric: The problem is that I can't think of a way of getting package names from a file without actually writing my own lisp parser
2016-09-06T00:33:28Z Bike: mh. well, no, you can't. it might not work as well as you'd hope anyway since redefining a package is tricky.
2016-09-06T00:34:00Z fouric: So there's no way to just read the contents of an arbitrary lisp file into a list?
2016-09-06T00:34:12Z fouric: (without running into missing package exceptions?)
2016-09-06T00:34:36Z fouric: er, s/no way/no simple way/
2016-09-06T00:34:43Z Bike: not that i know of.
2016-09-06T00:34:52Z fouric: :(
2016-09-06T00:34:53Z Bike: pjb has a reader implementation that should be flexible enough to handle that.
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2016-09-06T00:35:12Z Bike: so you at least shouldn't have to rewrite READ.
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2016-09-06T00:35:48Z Bike: lisp syntax is very context dependent. i mean, even without packages you have readtables and macros, and #. can do anything at all.
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2016-09-06T00:36:44Z fouric: Right, but it feels like it's sort of an oversight for Common Lisp to not have some way of easily reading the contents of simple (read: do not use readtable magic) Common Lisp files into strings
2016-09-06T00:36:48Z fouric: *lists
2016-09-06T00:37:31Z fouric: ugh, I guess that I have to learn about readtables now
2016-09-06T00:37:55Z pierpa: maybe you can make #\: a normal char? (I have not tried it, but I can't think any impediment in ding it)
2016-09-06T00:38:05Z pierpa: +o
2016-09-06T00:38:42Z pierpa: a constituent char
2016-09-06T00:39:03Z Bike: readtables include pretty much all syntax, so it's hard to say what counts as magic
2016-09-06T00:39:14Z fouric: *without modified readtables
2016-09-06T00:39:22Z fouric: I'm mostly interested in just loading my own code into a list
2016-09-06T00:39:35Z fouric: ...which doesn't make use of either modified readtables or #., yet
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2016-09-06T00:39:43Z pierpa: then I'd say it's not possible
2016-09-06T00:39:56Z Bike: i guess you need the package to exist because "foo:bar" doesn't mean "intern BAR in the FOO package"
2016-09-06T00:40:07Z Bike: since, like, foo might USE baz, and you have to find bar in baz
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2016-09-06T00:40:55Z Bike: and of course tons of lisp files have an in-package form in them, and that changes how the reader interns symbols, of course
2016-09-06T00:41:05Z Bike: so really you'd need to redefine lisp syntax to be more constant, i think
2016-09-06T00:41:12Z fouric: I don't even care about what package a symbol contains, though, I just want it to not throw an error
2016-09-06T00:41:26Z Bike: sorry, not use, inherit and stuff
2016-09-06T00:41:31Z fouric: I'm sort of disappointed because my use case is fairly narrow, and so I don't even need a general solution
2016-09-06T00:41:58Z fouric: I guess that most of the metaprogramming done in CL is usually done with macros, not READing in files
2016-09-06T00:42:09Z Bike: indeed
2016-09-06T00:42:21Z Bike: if it's your code, can you not just define the packages beforehand?
2016-09-06T00:42:21Z fouric: Well, I have an answer, even if it's unpleasant one
2016-09-06T00:42:23Z fouric: Hats off to you
2016-09-06T00:42:29Z fouric: oh
2016-09-06T00:42:31Z fouric: That's an idea
2016-09-06T00:43:18Z fouric: Well, now it complains that various symbols aren't found in their respective packages
2016-09-06T00:43:35Z fouric: (at least I'm not getting package-not-found exceptions...)
2016-09-06T00:44:27Z Bike: i don't think i understand what you're doing... can you not just create the context that you'd read this code in normally?
2016-09-06T00:44:57Z fouric: "context"? You mean the package containing these symbols not in cl-user?
2016-09-06T00:45:56Z Bike: i mean, if this is code, there's presumably some time you'd want to do compile-file or suchlike
2016-09-06T00:47:23Z Bike: if you're getting symbol not in package, you'd get that just doing normal stuff too
2016-09-06T00:49:58Z fouric: hmm, compile-file?
2016-09-06T00:50:05Z fouric: I haven't heard of this before...
2016-09-06T00:50:32Z pillton: What will you do with the list of code?
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2016-09-06T00:51:08Z fouric: Process it; I'm building a tool that gets function names, parameters, and docstrings from all files in a directory and makes them available for searching
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2016-09-06T00:52:22Z Bike: usually we do that dynamically, like through slime. gigamonkeys has that cool "manifest" thing noone uses
2016-09-06T00:52:33Z Bike: but uh, you haven't heard of compile file? how do you normally use lisp
2016-09-06T00:54:12Z pillton: In my opinion, docstrings should be the output, not the input.
2016-09-06T00:54:45Z fouric: pillton: what?
2016-09-06T00:55:15Z fouric: Bike: I haven't; I usually use Lisp through SLIME and Emacs, using C-c C-k to compile files and (ql:quickload ...) to load systems
2016-09-06T00:55:27Z pillton: fouric: I have been playing around with an idea for a while.
2016-09-06T00:55:36Z Bike: Oh. well, C-c C-k does compile-file
2016-09-06T00:56:09Z pillton: fouric: I have a markup language, (e.g. https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/blob/master/doc/dictionary.COXup), which is processed to generate the doc strings.
2016-09-06T00:56:21Z pillton: fouric: The content is also used to generate a web page.
2016-09-06T00:57:10Z raydeejay: I did something similar when making MUD experiments, the docstrings in the functions for commands included the in-game help too
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2016-09-06T00:58:58Z fouric: pillton: but I already have docstrings in my code, and the objective isn't to generate them, it's to extract them
2016-09-06T00:59:04Z fouric: different goals
2016-09-06T00:59:48Z fouric: Welp, compile-file doesn't appear to be doing anything; I assume that it doesn't actually modify the environment that it's being called in?
2016-09-06T00:59:59Z Bike: i... what are you doing
2016-09-06T01:00:16Z fouric: Oh, no, wait, nevermind, this particular file doesn't actually load the systems that contain the packages that are causing the error
2016-09-06T01:00:18Z fouric: My b
2016-09-06T01:00:20Z Bike: compile file will produce a fasl. you can load it with LOAD. C-c C-k pretty much does (load (compile-file ...))
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2016-09-06T01:02:33Z fouric: ...oh, but now I actually have to load the files that are loading the systems containing the packages that I need
2016-09-06T01:03:24Z pillton: fouric: Well, I used to write docstrings, but over time I realised that i) good docstrings take up a lot of vertical space and ii) I wanted my docstrings to be more and more like the hyperspec.
2016-09-06T01:03:58Z fouric: pillton: does your system actually put the docstrings directly into your code files?
2016-09-06T01:04:33Z pillton: fouric: No, it would generate a documentation.lisp file which can be loaded via ASDF.
2016-09-06T01:04:44Z pillton: Doc strings can be changed using the documentation function.
2016-09-06T01:04:47Z pillton: clhs documentation
2016-09-06T01:04:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm
2016-09-06T01:05:37Z raydeejay: out of curiosity, how much of a problem you find it to be that function and documentation are in two different places?
2016-09-06T01:05:51Z raydeejay: s/function/whatever/
2016-09-06T01:05:58Z fouric: I don't
2016-09-06T01:06:17Z fouric: I was just wondering if he'd managed to actually load in said lisp files to insert the docstrings
2016-09-06T01:06:24Z fouric: ...which might have helped with my problem
2016-09-06T01:06:24Z raydeejay: well, I was asking pillton xD
2016-09-06T01:06:30Z fouric: sry
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2016-09-06T01:06:50Z pillton: None. Eventually, I'd add an emacs command like M-. which would take me to the documentation in the markup.
2016-09-06T01:07:21Z Bike: i mean, if the docstring M-. gets me looks wrong my next guess would be to check "documentation.lisp", probably
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2016-09-06T01:08:28Z raydeejay: hm
2016-09-06T01:10:00Z pillton: raydeejay: Most of the time I use M-x slime-describe-symbol (or C-c C-d d) on a symbol.
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2016-09-06T01:10:55Z raydeejay: I was thinking more about when working on the funciton itself
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2016-09-06T01:12:19Z raydeejay: but I guess that with enough support and good habits is doesn't have to become an issue
2016-09-06T01:12:39Z pillton: I'm the developer and the client for most of the software I write. I'm usually fully aware of my requirements.
2016-09-06T01:12:41Z fouric: I give up, it'll be so much easier to write my own s-expression parser than it will be to mess around with doing it "the right way"
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2016-09-06T01:13:33Z fouric: "easier"
2016-09-06T01:13:49Z pillton: raydeejay: I write documentation for my future self and to try and build a community around my work.
2016-09-06T01:13:59Z pillton: I'm good at the first part, bloody terrible at the second.
2016-09-06T01:14:05Z raydeejay: heh
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2016-09-06T01:19:24Z fouric: nvm, "fixed" it by quickloading the necessary systems before reading in the files
2016-09-06T01:19:34Z fouric: hacky, but I'll take it
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2016-09-06T01:46:26Z pierpa: wrt the reader vs package question, some along this line should work: (handler-case (read-from-string "qwe:rty") (error (condition) (describe condition) ...))
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2016-09-06T01:46:53Z pierpa: the condition contains the name of the non-existent package
2016-09-06T01:47:58Z Bike: i thought of that but it was a simple error on sbcl, so discrimination sucks
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2016-09-06T01:48:36Z pierpa: if there's nothing better...
2016-09-06T01:49:48Z Bike: plus i didn't see a use-value restart
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2016-09-06T01:50:37Z pierpa: if they're reading from a file they can create the package, rewind the file, and try again
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2016-09-06T03:36:03Z axion: Possibly dumb question: Is there a standard function for determining how many bytes (or bits) a number is?
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2016-09-06T03:36:52Z Bike: clhs integer-length
2016-09-06T03:36:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intege.htm
2016-09-06T03:37:05Z Bike: very useful but not immediately apparent
2016-09-06T03:38:05Z axion: Exactly what I need, thank you.
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2016-09-06T11:50:10Z dim: hi
2016-09-06T11:50:25Z dim: do we have CCL people in the room, who could help with https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/438#issuecomment-244815827 ?
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2016-09-06T11:53:28Z sjl: dim: http://ccl.clozure.com/download.html lists a linux CCL binary there
2016-09-06T11:53:46Z sjl: served over bare-ass http so uh I guess don't DL it on public wifi
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2016-09-06T11:57:12Z dim: yeah, the user seems to have quite a hard time reading and following docs
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2016-09-06T15:25:06Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2016-09-06T15:25:46Z dwchandler: ¡Buenos días, beach!
2016-09-06T15:25:57Z beach: I changed the plan for representing parsed Common Lisp code in a buffer in Second Climacs.  The new plan is documented in chapter 8 (starting on page 37) in this document: http://metamodular.com/second-climacs.pdf
2016-09-06T15:26:25Z beach: If you have time, please let me know what you think; both about the representation itself and the way it is explained.  I will add examples later.
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2016-09-06T15:33:11Z mordocai: beach: I assume it'll be possible to ignore/customize the various checks? "extraneous whitespace" checker in particular seems problematic for people who like to line things(like assignments/literals) up table-like with spaces.
2016-09-06T15:33:31Z mordocai: And since it appears each step blocks the one after it from running, it'd be important to be able to turn it off potentially
2016-09-06T15:34:07Z beach: Are you reading chapter 8?
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2016-09-06T15:34:49Z mordocai: Currently chapter 2
2016-09-06T15:35:05Z mordocai: Ah I see, you kept both in there
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2016-09-06T15:35:24Z beach: I don't have chapter 2 fresh in memory, and there might be mistakes in there.
2016-09-06T15:35:30Z mordocai: I didn't read your original question carefully enough, sorry
2016-09-06T15:35:43Z beach: You can read it of course, but I might not have a good answer for you.
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2016-09-06T15:36:10Z jackdaniel: hah, ieee-fp works on Haiku :-)
2016-09-06T15:36:14Z mordocai: One note: The table of contents says page 37 is chapter 8 but it is chapter 6
2016-09-06T15:36:15Z jackdaniel: (ECL)
2016-09-06T15:36:39Z beach: mordocai: Probably just need to re-run TeX.
2016-09-06T15:36:49Z beach: It takes it a few iterations to get it right.
2016-09-06T15:39:14Z beach: mordocai: I see chapter 8 on page 37.  How strange!
2016-09-06T15:39:45Z beach: Chapter 6 starts on page 33 according to the table of contents I see.
2016-09-06T15:39:55Z mordocai: beach: Yeah, weird! Definitely page 41 for chapter 8, for me. I just hard refreshed too. I'm using the built-in firefox pdf reader, I wonder if that is doing something weird.
2016-09-06T15:40:12Z beach: Oh, you are looking at the page number that your PDF reader gives.
2016-09-06T15:40:24Z beach: I am referring to the page numbers at the bottom of each page.
2016-09-06T15:40:44Z mordocai: Oh, yeah. I've never seen a pdf not refer to the same thing as the reader in the table of contents lol
2016-09-06T15:41:02Z mordocai: Especially when it doesn't make links so you have to find it manually
2016-09-06T15:41:18Z beach: It is very preliminary.  Sorry about that.
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2016-09-06T15:41:50Z mordocai: No problem! Reading chapter 8 now in any case
2016-09-06T15:41:56Z beach: Thanks!
2016-09-06T15:42:24Z beach: I need to go away for some 15 minutes or so, but I'll read any comments or questions anyone might have when I come back.
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2016-09-06T15:47:41Z raydeejay: mordocai: then I guess you haven't seen that many pdfs... xD
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2016-09-06T15:50:34Z mordocai: raydeejay: Well, bit of hyperbole there. I'm sure I've seen some with "wrong" page numbers before
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2016-09-06T16:00:15Z beach is back.
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2016-09-06T16:05:11Z loke`: re beach
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2016-09-06T16:10:24Z varjag: re
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2016-09-06T16:12:19Z mordocai: beach: As far as it goes, I was mostly interested in the UI/user workflow and the new chapter 8 is mainly about data structure. The data structure looks fine to me, but I don't have experience with such things really.
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2016-09-06T16:13:24Z beach: mordocai: Fair enough.  Thanks for taking the time.  I'll be happy to get your comments on the rest as well of course.  It's just that that part is not fresh in my memory.
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2016-09-06T16:20:46Z beach: Time for me to go fix dinner.  I'll read the logs later in case there are any comments or questions.
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2016-09-06T17:13:39Z jasom: beach: I'm wondering how you handle reader macros.  e.g. is there any representation for #+(or)foo in your parse?
2016-09-06T17:15:07Z jasom: Reader macros are the bane of any system that hopes to represent common lisp code in a structured manner.  It's not that it's really hard to do, it's that it's not as easy to do as methods that operate on the code as it is post READ.
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2016-09-06T17:39:29Z PuercoPop: jasom: are you mentioning #+(or) because the reader would skip foo?
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2016-09-06T17:40:27Z beach: jasom: Yes, that is one of the points in 8.1.1, stating the reason why a special reader is required.
2016-09-06T17:41:21Z beach: jasom: The result of the read is not the expression.
2016-09-06T17:41:39Z beach: jasom: I also represent comments and things like that.
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2016-09-06T17:42:08Z beach: I can even handle custom reader macros.
2016-09-06T17:43:35Z beach: Only the top-level READ function is special.  If a custom reader macro calls that top-level READ function, then things will work as much as possible, given that no other information exists about what the custom reader macro might do.
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2016-09-06T17:47:57Z beach: PuercoPop: The reader doesn't skip it.  It can't, because it has to know the end of the expression foo.  It just doesn't do as much work.
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2016-09-06T17:49:58Z beach: clhs 2.4.8.17
2016-09-06T17:49:58Z specbot: Sharpsign Plus: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm
2016-09-06T17:50:25Z beach: "Skipping over the form is accomplished by binding *read-suppress* to true and then calling read."
2016-09-06T17:51:00Z PuercoPop: beach: yeah, I know, but when I learned about it, (jscl was failing on CCL because CCL was reading after the #j reader macro) I was surprised
2016-09-06T17:52:01Z PuercoPop: so I thought jasom may be under that impression as well (as a possible motivation for his question)
2016-09-06T17:53:22Z beach: I think jasom was under the impression that I intended to work from the normal result of READ, i.e., the expression read.  If so, I would not even see the FOO, and I certainly would not see things like comments.  But I am not working on the expression level, as described in chapter 8.
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2016-09-06T18:23:30Z jackdaniel: any volunteer with OSX x86-64 to test recent change in ECL? branch fix-haiku on main repository. (other platforms would be great too). generally: ./configure --prefix=`pwd`/output && make && make install && make check
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2016-09-06T18:24:17Z jackdaniel: I have removed some (hopefully obsolete) code dealing with fpe
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2016-09-06T18:47:33Z jasom: beach: I missed that part; I'll reread chapter 8 more carefully
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2016-09-06T18:48:24Z jasom: beach: obviously custom reader macros can't be handled 100% perfectly, but non-crappy custom reader macros ought to be handlable.
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2016-09-06T18:50:05Z dlowe: Conjecture: the difference between data and code is turing completeness. Once you go over that cliff, you can no longer statically analyze the system perfectly.
2016-09-06T18:50:52Z dlowe: Is there a weaker complexity that is impossible to perfectly analyze without interpretation?
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2016-09-06T18:50:58Z jasom: dlowe: yes
2016-09-06T18:51:02Z jasom: dlowe: lots of them
2016-09-06T18:51:21Z dlowe: Do tell.
2016-09-06T18:51:45Z jasom: dlowe: e.g. DFA/NFA
2016-09-06T18:52:23Z jasom: dlowe: also the less things that are dynamically controllable at runtime, the more you can analyze.  Consider static analyses in SML versus lisp, for example.
2016-09-06T18:53:35Z jasom: And some C++ compiler vendors belive that the standard requires that all loops terminate, which causes interesting things when optimizations get involved.
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2016-09-06T18:53:58Z jasom: s/all loops/all side-effect free loops/
2016-09-06T18:54:20Z mordocai: I'll ask in #emacs if no one here knows, but i've noticed doing Common Lisp with sly + sly-company the autocompletion doesn't narrow very specifically (for instance, typing sb-ext: will list pretty much everything and sb-ext:get will seemingly search all packages for get) and probably do to that is slow. I just have: http://paste.lisp.org/display/325360 as my config.
2016-09-06T18:54:36Z mordocai: probably due to that*
2016-09-06T18:55:05Z dlowe: I think my conjecture was ill-phrased. I'm thinking mostly about parsing.
2016-09-06T18:55:37Z jasom: mordocai: with slime the search is as narrow as one would expect; in keyword argument position it is limited to the set of keywords permissible for the function (absent &allow-other-keys)
2016-09-06T18:55:46Z jasom: mordocai: I'd be really surprised if sly were different
2016-09-06T18:56:11Z jasom: mordocai: are you certain that the package sb-ext is present?  It might fall-back if it doesn't know about the package
2016-09-06T18:56:30Z mordocai: jasom: Definitely present. I can work on getting some screenshots I suppose.
2016-09-06T18:56:41Z jasom: mordocai: I don't use sly so can't help much more :/
2016-09-06T18:56:50Z sjl: jackdaniel: I can try... might take a bit to clone down over 4g though
2016-09-06T18:56:54Z mordocai: I did see something in the readme of sly-company now that I'm not doing so I'll see what that does
2016-09-06T18:56:55Z jasom: dlowe: CL is a special case of parsing due to reader macros.
2016-09-06T18:57:05Z jackdaniel: sjl: no need, I've found volunteer, thanks!
2016-09-06T18:57:11Z sjl: ah cool
2016-09-06T18:57:18Z jasom: dlowe: in most languages you can at least tokenize without being turing complete.
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2016-09-06T18:57:32Z jackdaniel: (and this change broke OSX, so I'm reverting and lookin for other way to fix haiku)
2016-09-06T18:57:40Z jasom: And it's very rare for a language to be unparsable with a PDA
2016-09-06T18:58:12Z jasom: (PDAs are very close to turing complete; a PDA modified to have two stacks is isomorphic to a turing machine)
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2016-09-06T18:58:46Z mordocai: jackdaniel: I was going to volunteer too so ping me if you have another change to try and need a volunteer again
2016-09-06T18:58:55Z jackdaniel: mordocai: OK, thanks!
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2016-09-06T18:59:25Z mordocai: jasom: Hmmm... looks like company was using some default method. I didn't have sly-company in company-backends. It seems like it might be working better now.
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2016-09-06T19:01:18Z jasom: dlowe: many languages are parsable in LL(k) for some k; yacc is LALR; PEGs can also parse most things.  Requiring a turing complete parser is the exception rather than the rule.
2016-09-06T19:02:18Z jasom: bourne shell is similarly hard to parse; the tokenization can be affected by the presence of aliases.
2016-09-06T19:02:25Z mordocai: jasom: Btw, this is what I ended up with re: our parenscript discussion the other day https://gitlab.com/mordocai/my-screeps/tree/parenscript. You can find my hacky deploy script in build.ros and it takes src/*.lisp and compiles to to dest/*.js
2016-09-06T19:02:35Z mordocai: dist* not dest
2016-09-06T19:02:48Z jasom: mordocai: glad you found something that works
2016-09-06T19:03:53Z mordocai: jasom: If you feel like taking a look, let me know if you see anything obvious I could do better. To start with, I was more or less one-to-one translating from the src/*.js files to the corresponding src/*.lisp files
2016-09-06T19:04:27Z jasom: mordocai: that works as long as you don't have macros you want to use in multiple .lisp files
2016-09-06T19:05:17Z jasom: also, I presume you are doing postprocessing of the .js files outside of lisp?
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2016-09-06T19:05:48Z jasom: the advantage to my approach was that asdf:load-system caused all of the .js postprocessing to happen.
2016-09-06T19:05:53Z mordocai: jasom: Not for now. It is purposely left pretty printed/not touched due to its purpose (https://screeps.com) where it is nice to have readable code.
2016-09-06T19:06:10Z jasom: mordocai: I actually prettified mine for debug purposes
2016-09-06T19:06:30Z jasom: ooh, shiny
2016-09-06T19:06:43Z jasom: sadly i lack time to start any games, much less an MMO
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2016-09-06T19:07:13Z mordocai: jasom: Hehe, yeah. I'm going to show off parenscript/clojurescript/any other lisp to js I have time for at the lisp meetup this week and that seemed like a cool way to do it
2016-09-06T19:08:47Z PuercoPop: mordocai: the problem is the new completion backend from sly
2016-09-06T19:10:45Z PuercoPop: specifically its ranking function. The better solution would be porting c-p-c to the new completion API of sly. I've been wanting to do so because it has messed with my habits (ql:apr<tab> for system apropos no doesn't work. I have to type more of apropos, it doesn't respect the package designator specified, etc)
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2016-09-06T19:11:54Z mordocai: PuercoPop: Yeah, explicitly adding sly-company to my backends helped but it still seems worse than the old slime behavior
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2016-09-06T19:12:28Z PuercoPop: mordocai: sorry I shouldn't have said backend, its the API. The change is like 6 months old iirc, se
2016-09-06T19:12:29Z PuercoPop: sec
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2016-09-06T19:15:55Z PuercoPop: mordocai: this is the commit that introduced the new API https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/commit/fc5a8de4e725332f5ae7d09845973104229243df
2016-09-06T19:16:05Z PuercoPop: I agree that it seems worse than the old behaviour
2016-09-06T19:16:24Z mordocai: Btw, is capitaomorte the same person as joaotavora? Or is that a new maintainer?
2016-09-06T19:16:35Z PuercoPop: is the same person, changed this nick
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2016-09-06T19:16:43Z mordocai: That's what I thought might be the case, thanks
2016-09-06T19:16:49Z PuercoPop: Currently even if you specify a package designator sly still looks up all symbols
2016-09-06T19:17:11Z mordocai: Right, that is what it looked like was happening to me
2016-09-06T19:17:46Z PuercoPop: Ideally it would look up the package and if not found it would iterate through all packages for partial string matches
2016-09-06T19:18:38Z PuercoPop: currently the ranking function takes into account the string length, iirc trying to match "a" "b" gives a score of 1!
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2016-09-06T19:20:21Z raydeejay: 1 factorial? ^^
2016-09-06T19:23:37Z PuercoPop: mordocai: try evaluating this for example (let ((pattern "a") (candidate "b")) (slynk-completion::score-completion (slynk-completion::flex-matches pattern candidate) pattern candidate))
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2016-09-06T19:26:23Z mordocai: PuercoPop: Yep, 1.0 (100.0%)
2016-09-06T19:26:27Z PuercoPop: My plan was to port c-p-c to a CLOS completion API (https://github.com/PuercoPop/completion-candidates) and then right a sly contrib to better suit my needs
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2016-09-06T19:27:46Z PuercoPop: *write
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2016-09-06T19:31:12Z PuercoPop: A more incremental way to fix sly would be to introduce cutoff threshold, and have qualified-matching use the package to restrict the symbols looked. But that ranking function is not very good so no threshold would work with it. I don't know much about text similarity though. I think Joao got the heuristic from ido-flex IIRC (from reading ido-flex)
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2016-09-06T20:05:40Z lispmaester: duh
2016-09-06T20:05:42Z lispmaester: herro
2016-09-06T20:05:52Z lispmaester: sorry
2016-09-06T20:06:12Z lispmaester: (format t "hi guys")
2016-09-06T20:06:42Z lispmaester: x^2+4y^2=36
2016-09-06T20:07:00Z lispmaester: find the equation of the two tangents lines of this ellipse that pass through the point (12,3)
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2016-09-06T20:08:25Z dlowe: no.
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2016-09-06T20:12:57Z pipping: that's an unusual type of spam
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2016-09-06T20:56:16Z gargaml: hi
2016-09-06T20:56:44Z gargaml: I just installed clack to experiment some web development and understand what's behind caveman
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2016-09-06T20:57:16Z gargaml: I read about middleware and some other details but is there a documentation somewhere or is the source code the only resource ?
2016-09-06T20:57:43Z gargaml: because the quicklisp doc seems a bit light
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2016-09-06T21:06:14Z jasom: gargaml: pretty much just the source code as far as I can tell.
2016-09-06T21:06:23Z jasom: gargaml: the interface is fairly straightforward though
2016-09-06T21:06:35Z jasom: gargaml: if you have any questions, ask me; I run directly on top of clack.
2016-09-06T21:07:07Z jasom: gargaml: or even better, ask in this channel, and I'll answer when I see the question
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2016-09-06T21:11:54Z gargaml: jasom: great, thank you very much
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2016-09-06T21:12:04Z gargaml: I'll start hacking with it tomorrow
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2016-09-06T21:12:30Z jasom: gargaml: ignoring the middleware, you create a function that takes one parameter, and pass it to clackup.  This parameter is a plist describing the request.
2016-09-06T21:13:23Z gargaml: ok, I'll try this
2016-09-06T21:13:58Z jasom: note that the requeset body is a stream rather than a vector.
2016-09-06T21:14:30Z PuercoPop: jasom: it can be a vector now as well fwir
2016-09-06T21:14:42Z PuercoPop: (it used to be only a stream in clack v1)
2016-09-06T21:14:53Z jasom: PuercoPop: that's a bit annoying
2016-09-06T21:15:02Z jasom: I turn it into a vector the first chance I get anyways though.
2016-09-06T21:15:36Z jasom: IIRC with some backends you could break the webserver by reading too many bytes from the body in v1, so I think it should never have been a stream to begin with.
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2016-09-06T21:24:56Z PuercoPop: Streams could be nice if coupled with a 'pipeline' API like java8 streams
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2016-09-06T21:32:13Z jasom: PuercoPop: I don't see the advantage of streams over vectors.
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2016-09-06T23:40:08Z phoe: Are there any articles or books on using CLOS in a functional (meaning: immutable data) way?
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2016-09-06T23:41:24Z phoe: I'm thinking of a project that might grow fairly big and my idea is, I'd use CLOS for the data structures.
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2016-09-06T23:45:59Z pillton: I'm not sure what you are asking. Do you want CLOS to enforce the immutability of the object?
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2016-09-06T23:49:36Z phoe: It's more along the lines of - I cannot find any articles on utilizing CLOS in such a way. I know that CLOS objects can be immutable if I define :READER instead of :ACCESSOR for slots.
2016-09-06T23:50:08Z pillton: That isn't right. You can use (setf slot-value) to mutate the slots.
2016-09-06T23:50:20Z phoe: Immutable by definition, I mean.
2016-09-06T23:50:34Z phoe: I know that everything in Lisp can be mutated if the programmer really wants to.
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2016-09-06T23:51:59Z pillton: Well, a CLOS object on its own is immutable. Its the operators on the object you need to be concerned with.
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2016-09-06T23:52:32Z phoe: Hm.
2016-09-06T23:53:57Z phoe: To be honest, all I need are a) readers on object slots, b) generics and methods that grab objects, read some of their values, and create and return new objects based on that.
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2016-09-06T23:56:08Z pillton: You're over thinking it. All you need are functions (closures or generic functions).
2016-09-06T23:56:47Z phoe: Closures?
2016-09-06T23:57:27Z phoe: I mean - I know the term. I don't get closures in the current context.
2016-09-06T23:59:14Z pillton: Closures refer to functions created using defun or lambda, and generic functions refer to those created using defgeneric.
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