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2016-09-02T00:02:14Z phoe: #emacs might be able to help you better, abstract-alf
2016-09-02T00:02:53Z phoe: in Common Lisp it would be (defmacro foo (a b) `(,a (insert ,b) ,b))
2016-09-02T00:03:28Z phoe: I think it'd work the same in elisp, actually.
2016-09-02T00:03:36Z abstract-alf: thanks
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2016-09-02T00:07:58Z abstract-alf: phoe, that does precisely what I was hoping for
2016-09-02T00:08:23Z abstract-alf: simple for you, I take it
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2016-09-02T00:10:50Z phoe: abstract-alf: a bit of macrowriting experience does it.
2016-09-02T00:11:04Z phoe: the `, notation is fairly simple to grasp though.
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2016-09-02T00:11:15Z phoe: do you know how quotation in Lisp works?
2016-09-02T00:11:20Z raydeejay: phoe: your macro takes two parameters
2016-09-02T00:11:33Z phoe: raydeejay: oh welp, right
2016-09-02T00:11:36Z phoe: the original form took one
2016-09-02T00:12:13Z phoe: (defmacro foo (form) `(,(first form) (insert ,(second form)) ,(second form)))
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2016-09-02T00:12:39Z raydeejay: that is EXACTLY what I sent him
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2016-09-02T00:12:59Z raydeejay: but does elisp have first and second? so I said then CAR and CADR :)
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2016-09-02T00:13:29Z abstract-alf: it works with car/cdr
2016-09-02T00:13:53Z raydeejay: cAdr
2016-09-02T00:13:57Z abstract-alf: I asked for a version with the pair because it didn't occur to me I could just pass the items
2016-09-02T00:14:06Z raydeejay: with CDR you get a list
2016-09-02T00:14:21Z abstract-alf: oh, cadr is the car of the cdr
2016-09-02T00:14:27Z abstract-alf: neat!
2016-09-02T00:15:02Z raydeejay remembers how much Sussman enjoyed saying caddr in the SICP videos
2016-09-02T00:16:21Z phoe: raydeejay: CDDDR
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2016-09-02T00:17:15Z raydeejay: hm... I seem to remember him saying "the CAR of the CDR of the CDR... CADDR!! \o/"
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2016-09-02T00:18:36Z abstract-alf: I'm using a lib that accepts list params that appear to be treated like tuples
2016-09-02T00:18:43Z abstract-alf: the params are not quoted
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2016-09-02T00:18:57Z abstract-alf: is that a giveaway that the lib function I'm calling is actually a macro?
2016-09-02T00:19:27Z abstract-alf: https://github.com/abo-abo/hydra#the-impressive-looking-one
2016-09-02T00:19:38Z abstract-alf: there's an example of the call... "defhydra"
2016-09-02T00:19:48Z phoe: Seems like a macro.
2016-09-02T00:19:59Z phoe: It would err out if it was a function.
2016-09-02T00:20:08Z phoe: Because I doubt that (:color ...) is a valid function call.
2016-09-02T00:20:17Z abstract-alf: right! ok, I thought so
2016-09-02T00:20:20Z phoe: And that HYDRA-BUFFER-MENU is a bound variable.
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2016-09-02T00:20:42Z phoe: But anyway, things like DEFFOO are almost always macros.
2016-09-02T00:21:06Z raydeejay: well... either it is a macro, or something really weird is going on :D
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2016-09-02T00:23:46Z abstract-alf: so you see those tuple-like forms, like ("v" Buffer-menu-select "select")?
2016-09-02T00:25:07Z abstract-alf: the "v" corresponds to the key you are supposed to press to invoke the function Buffer-menu-select, and it's labeled in the UI as "select"
2016-09-02T00:25:51Z abstract-alf: I have a case where a string is repeated in the second and third positions: ("^" (insert "Ô") "Ô")
2016-09-02T00:25:58Z phoe: Not tuples at all. They're just lists.
2016-09-02T00:26:09Z abstract-alf: I understand that, but they're used as tuples
2016-09-02T00:26:20Z phoe: Ayup.
2016-09-02T00:26:24Z abstract-alf: the lib assigns meanings to the list positions
2016-09-02T00:26:31Z raydeejay: depends on what you call a tuple...
2016-09-02T00:26:34Z phoe: But then again, Lisp has the homoiconicity.
2016-09-02T00:26:38Z phoe: So all of your code is also tuples.
2016-09-02T00:27:02Z phoe: It's a slippery term in Lisp, a "tuple".
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2016-09-02T00:27:21Z abstract-alf: so, ("^" (insert "Ô") "Ô")
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2016-09-02T00:27:32Z abstract-alf: I have a dozen or more just like that but for different letters
2016-09-02T00:27:51Z abstract-alf: I want to refactor so I'm not duplicating the letter in the 2nd and 3rd position
2016-09-02T00:28:01Z abstract-alf: and also, not mention the 'insert' symbol at all
2016-09-02T00:28:19Z abstract-alf: so I can switch to insert-after for all my cases in one spot
2016-09-02T00:28:31Z abstract-alf: is a macro what I need?
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2016-09-02T00:29:06Z abstract-alf: (insert-key "^" "Ô")
2016-09-02T00:29:50Z raydeejay: the problem is that now you have a macro with a name as generic as INSERT-KEY
2016-09-02T00:30:11Z abstract-alf: well, let's just imagine that isn't a problem
2016-09-02T00:30:34Z phoe: in the Emacs world, this is going to be a problem.
2016-09-02T00:30:37Z abstract-alf: or if it's a big problem, would a function work instead?
2016-09-02T00:30:43Z phoe: not really
2016-09-02T00:30:52Z phoe: you'd need to call it something like hydra-shortcut-insert-key
2016-09-02T00:31:02Z raydeejay: you could use cl-macrolet https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/cl/Macro-Bindings.html
2016-09-02T00:31:03Z abstract-alf: I don't suppose I could have a locally-scoped macro definition
2016-09-02T00:31:03Z phoe: or something that you're sure will not collide with anything in code or programmer's mind.
2016-09-02T00:31:11Z phoe: raydeejay: he's not doing it in CL.
2016-09-02T00:31:17Z phoe: oh, wait!
2016-09-02T00:31:27Z raydeejay: waited ;-)
2016-09-02T00:31:35Z phoe: it's a CL-like macrolet implementation for emacs!
2016-09-02T00:32:01Z phoe: abstract-alf: so, yes, youc an.
2016-09-02T00:32:04Z phoe: you can.
2016-09-02T00:32:16Z raydeejay: I haven't explored that package... most of my lisp is CL, and the little elisp I have (90k... xD) is mostly copypasted and modified
2016-09-02T00:33:24Z doesthiswork: that is the usual kind of elisp
2016-09-02T00:33:34Z raydeejay: heh
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2016-09-02T00:34:30Z phoe: Can I (loop until ... for ...) ?
2016-09-02T00:34:40Z raydeejay: let me test it xD
2016-09-02T00:34:44Z phoe: No no.
2016-09-02T00:34:47Z phoe: I know it might work.
2016-09-02T00:34:55Z phoe: But I also know it might be non-conforming.
2016-09-02T00:35:12Z phoe: Something rings a bell inside my mind when I have an UNTIL before FOR in LOOP.
2016-09-02T00:35:28Z phoe: clhs loop
2016-09-02T00:35:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
2016-09-02T00:35:30Z abstract-alf: when I macroexpand my macro to check, the form looks correct. However, when I use it within that larger defhydra call, the whole thing returns nil
2016-09-02T00:35:44Z phoe: abstract-alf: what returns nil?
2016-09-02T00:35:54Z abstract-alf: the evaluation of the defhydra call
2016-09-02T00:35:54Z raydeejay: phoe: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/cl/Loop-Facility.html#Loop-Facility
2016-09-02T00:36:37Z abstract-alf: (defhydra hydra-accented-letters-o-capital (:color blue)
2016-09-02T00:36:37Z abstract-alf:    "O"
2016-09-02T00:36:37Z abstract-alf:    (hydra-char-insert "/" "Ø")
2016-09-02T00:36:37Z abstract-alf:    (hydra-char-insert "-" "-")
2016-09-02T00:36:37Z abstract-alf:    ("q" nil "cancel"))
2016-09-02T00:36:43Z abstract-alf: that evaluates to nil
2016-09-02T00:37:09Z rpg: phoe: I know clisp enforces putting all the variable clauses before the termination clauses (which is correct by the spec)
2016-09-02T00:37:45Z phoe: "Termination-test control constructs can be used anywhere within the loop body."
2016-09-02T00:37:48Z phoe: Guess I'm wrong.
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2016-09-02T00:39:07Z raydeejay: abstract-alf: defhydra expands to a progn, the relatively educated guess is that its last form evaluates to nil
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2016-09-02T00:39:43Z abstract-alf: when I evaluate the original form (without my macro expansion attempt), I get a non-nil value
2016-09-02T00:40:25Z rpg: phoe: This is in the grammar in the spec:  loop [name-clause] {variable-clause}* {main-clause}*
2016-09-02T00:40:34Z raydeejay: abstract-alf: I'm asleep... of course, that macro is not being expanded there
2016-09-02T00:40:45Z abstract-alf: raydeejay, ?
2016-09-02T00:40:53Z rpg: termination-tests being main clauses, and for-as-clause being variable-clauses
2016-09-02T00:40:59Z raydeejay: defhydra is itself a macro, its arguments are not evaluated
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2016-09-02T00:41:35Z abstract-alf: raydeejay, is there any way to do what I'm trying to do?
2016-09-02T00:41:54Z phoe: rpg: so I was right, actually.
2016-09-02T00:42:01Z phoe: I'll need to test this at the end of the loop.
2016-09-02T00:42:03Z rpg: phoe: Yup.
2016-09-02T00:42:16Z rpg: I've only seen this strictly enforced on clisp.
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2016-09-02T00:42:22Z raydeejay: my first thought is that it involves modifying the macro, but I'm open to someone telling me I'm wrong :D
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2016-09-02T00:42:40Z abstract-alf: hmmmm, so you can't have arbitrarily nested macros?
2016-09-02T00:43:08Z abstract-alf: I suppose, you can't compose macros?
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2016-09-02T00:45:28Z raydeejay: not arbitrarily, no, depends on what the macro does
2016-09-02T00:45:39Z raydeejay: each* macro
2016-09-02T00:47:34Z rpg: I'm not sure what either of your questions mean.  Nested how? composed how?
2016-09-02T00:48:21Z raydeejay: (defhydra (thing-that-defhydra-uses-as-data) (his-macro a b c))
2016-09-02T00:48:24Z raydeejay: that way
2016-09-02T00:48:45Z abstract-alf: yep
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2016-09-02T00:49:42Z abstract-alf: no doubt I'm thinking of macros like function calls... functions can compose
2016-09-02T00:51:49Z raydeejay: the way I understand macros best is to think of them as compiler extensions, and then extending the thought, they are functions that I add to the compiler that take data and return data (I know, feel free to slay me for handwaving)
2016-09-02T00:52:40Z raydeejay: so what happens to the data is entirely up to the macro, it could be a macro that, no matter what you pass to it, it gets ignored and always expand to "1"
2016-09-02T00:54:08Z cromachina: source transformers
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2016-09-02T00:54:59Z raydeejay: yyyyyyexcept that you can easily make a macro that pulls chunks of code from a database
2016-09-02T00:55:13Z abstract-alf: sounds wonderful
2016-09-02T00:55:14Z raydeejay: "source transformer" doesn't quite convey that kind of power
2016-09-02T00:55:32Z pillton: clhs 3.1
2016-09-02T00:55:32Z specbot: Evaluation: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_a.htm
2016-09-02T00:55:53Z pillton: raydeejay: I suggest you read that section.
2016-09-02T00:56:13Z pillton: An implementation is not required to compile.
2016-09-02T00:56:31Z raydeejay: this is the slaying for handwaving, right? :)
2016-09-02T00:56:46Z pillton: I don't know what that means.
2016-09-02T00:57:17Z abstract-alf: I think this might be a little over m head at this point
2016-09-02T00:57:20Z raydeejay: what I'm trying to say is that you don't introduce kids to the movement of planets around the Sun by talking about relativity
2016-09-02T00:57:26Z abstract-alf: thanks for the pointers... got some reading to do
2016-09-02T00:57:35Z raydeejay: you start with a simplified model, even if it's not right
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2016-09-02T00:57:44Z pillton: That section is really easy to understand.
2016-09-02T00:58:51Z raydeejay: it's also way longer than my not-really-true explanation for someone that has no idea of what lisp macros are, but I didn't say MACROS ARE THIS
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2016-09-02T00:59:28Z pillton: I am not attacking you. I am merely trying to help you.
2016-09-02T01:00:28Z pillton: If 3.1 is heavy going, then I would at least try and follow 3.1.2.
2016-09-02T01:01:32Z raydeejay: well, thanks :) I am not a total newbie, though, and I know that macros and compilation are two separate things, but I also found that my explanation works incredibly well with people who know some other more mainstream language
2016-09-02T01:02:04Z raydeejay: that said, I still have loads to learn about CL :)
2016-09-02T01:02:05Z cromachina: macros become far less mysterious when you examine the expanded results
2016-09-02T01:02:25Z pillton: I disagree. The word macro typically invokes mental models of text to text transformation.
2016-09-02T01:02:45Z raydeejay: yes, it's sort of the point
2016-09-02T01:03:02Z pillton: I find it more useful to use the phrase "macro function" when explaining common lisp to new people.
2016-09-02T01:03:06Z raydeejay: you say "lisp macros are so cool", then they say "but C has macros"
2016-09-02T01:03:35Z raydeejay: then I say "a lisp macro is a compiler extension"
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2016-09-02T01:05:02Z raydeejay: then I have a blank slate to explain how a macro works on code as data, and so on... I may not have all things right, but at least I can convey the basics to most people in an easy way (while keeping in mind that I'm sort of lying to them by simplifying things)
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2016-09-02T01:07:02Z cromachina: "a lisp macro is a source transformer that allows you to use previously defined lisp to determine the transformation"
2016-09-02T01:07:53Z raydeejay: that works better, I usually end up with something similar
2016-09-02T01:08:00Z cromachina: i dont think you can get away with not explaining that forms are evaluated one at a time, though
2016-09-02T01:08:38Z phoe: macros do compose like functions, with one exception
2016-09-02T01:08:44Z raydeejay: most people (that I explain lisp to) take that for granted
2016-09-02T01:08:50Z phoe: the effects of function composition happen *after* compilation
2016-09-02T01:08:57Z phoe: where the effects of macro composition happen *before* compilation
2016-09-02T01:09:20Z raydeejay ponders it
2016-09-02T01:09:32Z phoe: which is because macros are called before compilation, where functions, naturally, after compilation.
2016-09-02T01:09:57Z phoe: so if macro foo calls macro bar internally, then foo will get expanded into a form that contains bar
2016-09-02T01:10:13Z phoe: and when compiler encounters the macro bar during compilation, it'll expand it.
2016-09-02T01:10:16Z raydeejay: phoe: don't say compilation... xD
2016-09-02T01:10:22Z phoe: raydeejay: why?
2016-09-02T01:10:32Z raydeejay: because pillton gets angry, apparently
2016-09-02T01:10:38Z phoe: raydeejay: why?
2016-09-02T01:10:46Z raydeejay shrugs
2016-09-02T01:10:47Z phoe: oh well, fine.
2016-09-02T01:10:52Z phoe: macroexpansion time, not compilation time.
2016-09-02T01:11:00Z phoe: that's just slightly before proper compilation.
2016-09-02T01:13:01Z raydeejay: well, in this case, what happens is that defhydra is not taking lisp code as data, it's a rigid DSL (it is, right?)
2016-09-02T01:13:31Z zm: i upgraded slime, now it won't start up in my current emacs session, works fine if I start another. its looking for swank-loader.lisp in the wrong place, may be the source of it hangining (different version number of slime now, so). how can i fix this in my current emacs session?
2016-09-02T01:13:37Z zm: http://sprunge.us/gPLP thats what i get when starting up, then it hangs forever (as in `Polling /tmp/slime{some-random-number}`)
2016-09-02T01:13:56Z zm: asked in #emacs but thought id ask here as well since this is where most slime users are.
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2016-09-02T01:14:35Z phoe: raydeejay: why not both?
2016-09-02T01:15:00Z phoe: file does
2016-09-02T01:15:01Z phoe:   not exist.
2016-09-02T01:15:02Z cromachina: zm: you may have to remove lingering versions of slime
2016-09-02T01:15:06Z phoe: ^
2016-09-02T01:15:28Z phoe: Emacs, for some reason, is searching for an old SLIME version.
2016-09-02T01:15:47Z raydeejay: are you asking me why doesn't it work with his (insert-key)? or if I would design something is such a way?
2016-09-02T01:15:53Z zm: yeah thats what i saw phoe
2016-09-02T01:15:56Z phoe: You might want to clear all sorts of caches and search your init.el for any slime parts.
2016-09-02T01:16:05Z zm: but the only slime i have is the new one
2016-09-02T01:16:20Z zm: I dont see anything relating to the old slime I had.
2016-09-02T01:16:20Z phoe: But, somewhere in your code, emacs attempts to load the old one, with the old pathname.
2016-09-02T01:16:55Z phoe: Look at http://sprunge.us/gPLP <- the first line.
2016-09-02T01:17:02Z phoe: That's the line that gets executed inside Emacs.
2016-09-02T01:17:16Z phoe: Wait.
2016-09-02T01:17:24Z phoe: It's not executed inside Emacs.
2016-09-02T01:17:28Z phoe: It's executed inside SBCL.
2016-09-02T01:17:41Z zm: that is the old slime but i dont see that dir anymore.
2016-09-02T01:17:52Z phoe: Check your .sbclrc
2016-09-02T01:18:02Z phoe: The issue is not in Emacs, it's in Lisp.
2016-09-02T01:18:24Z cromachina: i had other versions of slime hidden in my quicklisp dir before
2016-09-02T01:18:25Z phoe: Methinks.
2016-09-02T01:18:28Z zm: Hmm.
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2016-09-02T01:18:35Z zm: All I have in that file is quicklisp stuff
2016-09-02T01:18:37Z DavidGu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-02T01:18:53Z phoe: Unless... wait. This gets sent to Lisp from Emacs the moment inferior-lisp is run.
2016-09-02T01:19:14Z raydeejay: maybe (load (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el")) ?
2016-09-02T01:19:25Z raydeejay: M-: that
2016-09-02T01:19:28Z phoe: How did you update slime?
2016-09-02T01:19:35Z phoe: ELPA/MELPA or Quicklisp?
2016-09-02T01:19:53Z DavidGu joined #lisp
2016-09-02T01:19:54Z phoe: Because you had the old version from ELPA it seems.
2016-09-02T01:20:10Z zm: elpa
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2016-09-02T01:21:11Z zm: raydeejay: dont have that file
2016-09-02T01:21:51Z raydeejay: right...
2016-09-02T01:21:52Z zm: huh, i may have to give up this emacs session lol.
2016-09-02T01:22:18Z phoe: oh, wait.
2016-09-02T01:22:20Z phoe: *session*.
2016-09-02T01:22:29Z phoe: Your old session still has the old SLIME version!
2016-09-02T01:22:38Z zm: Correct.
2016-09-02T01:22:42Z phoe: And the old SLIME path.
2016-09-02T01:22:48Z zm: Right.
2016-09-02T01:22:56Z phoe: Try loading the new slime-helper.el perhaps.
2016-09-02T01:23:14Z phoe: I mean, the old SWANK path.
2016-09-02T01:25:56Z phoe: I'd just grep all the Emacs variables for "slime-20160704.1500" if I knew h ow.
2016-09-02T01:26:06Z phoe: And replace that with a proper path.
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2016-09-02T01:26:24Z cromachina: give that emacs the ol reboot
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2016-09-02T01:27:12Z zm: yeah, can't find slime-helper.el.
2016-09-02T01:27:18Z zm: think im just going to give up this emacs session
2016-09-02T01:27:43Z raydeejay: zm, slime-path?
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2016-09-02T01:28:15Z cromachina: if you are afraid of losing buffers, then why not use a desktop?
2016-09-02T01:28:26Z phoe: slime-path!
2016-09-02T01:30:26Z zm: raydeejay: Worked, thank you!
2016-09-02T01:30:39Z raydeejay: ielm and helm are nice tools :)
2016-09-02T01:30:45Z zm: cromachina: not sure why that would be a solution, also "desktop" is ambigious
2016-09-02T01:31:07Z raydeejay: the desktop package
2016-09-02T01:31:08Z zm: Thanks phoe as well
2016-09-02T01:31:09Z cromachina: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Saving-Emacs-Sessions.html
2016-09-02T01:32:08Z zm: sounds good cromachina
2016-09-02T01:32:16Z cromachina: :-)
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2016-09-02T01:53:36Z phoe: How can I feed fresh elements to MAKE-ARRAY?
2016-09-02T01:54:04Z phoe: I want an array of arrays. :INITIAL-ELEMENT (MAKE-ARRAY ...) creates a single one that gets fed everywhere.
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2016-09-02T02:00:53Z axion: If you want non-EQ elements, you're going to have to use initial-contents or loop over it after creation probably.
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2016-09-02T02:04:18Z phoe: I'll loop over it.
2016-09-02T02:05:12Z axion: Also, if you want an array of arrays, you may possibly actually want an n-dimensional array
2016-09-02T02:05:30Z axion: the first argument can be a list specifying the dimensions
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2016-09-02T02:15:07Z phoe: ...
2016-09-02T02:15:10Z phoe: ooh
2016-09-02T02:15:19Z phoe: oooooh
2016-09-02T02:15:32Z phoe: now this is something I can grok
2016-09-02T02:15:34Z phoe: thanks, axion!
2016-09-02T02:15:47Z phoe: a 3D bit array is something very optimizable.
2016-09-02T02:19:29Z cromachina: and dont forget that you can convert it and address it to different dimensions with make-array :displaced-to and row-major-aref
2016-09-02T02:19:59Z phoe: cromachina: thanks!
2016-09-02T02:21:11Z loke: Also, when initialising an array, map-into can be useful: (map-into (make-array ...) #'make-element)
2016-09-02T02:22:24Z phoe: loke: !
2016-09-02T02:22:32Z phoe: Can it map into a multidimensional array?
2016-09-02T02:22:34Z phoe: clhs map-into
2016-09-02T02:22:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_map_in.htm
2016-09-02T02:23:16Z phoe: ...wait, no. Only on sequences.
2016-09-02T02:23:33Z loke: phoe: Well, yes. But only by using a displaced array to wrap it
2016-09-02T02:23:34Z cromachina: but you can 'cast' it to a sequence using displacement
2016-09-02T02:23:34Z phoe: But thanks, loke, I'll use this for vectors.
2016-09-02T02:23:41Z phoe: Or this thing.
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2016-09-02T02:36:42Z gregorio: hello ?
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2016-09-02T02:36:53Z Guest96874: hello?
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2016-09-02T02:37:50Z Guest96874: hello?!?!?!?
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2016-09-02T02:38:53Z terminal256: hello?!?!?!?
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2016-09-02T02:39:52Z imightbestupid12: why 7727 is right? http://imgur.com/a/gpCFV
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2016-09-02T02:47:25Z doesthiswork: thats good
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2016-09-02T02:53:32Z phoe: geez
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2016-09-02T02:53:38Z terminal256: hey!
2016-09-02T02:53:47Z terminal256: another human being
2016-09-02T02:53:49Z phoe: my stuff compiles, but doesn't work.
2016-09-02T02:53:58Z phoe: time to check my algorithms. bleh.
2016-09-02T02:54:08Z terminal256: can i see the source?!?!?!
2016-09-02T02:54:17Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: ping
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2016-09-02T02:57:54Z lisp861: are any of u people even alive....
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2016-09-02T02:58:34Z lisp431: hellllllloooooo
2016-09-02T02:58:59Z lisp861: am i doing this irc thing right?
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2016-09-02T02:59:17Z Bike: you seem to have asked a totally off topic question here and are pretty insistent about getting responses, so no
2016-09-02T02:59:43Z lisp431: whoops... thank you...
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2016-09-02T03:08:29Z cromachina: wat
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2016-09-02T03:12:01Z doesthiswork: cromachina https://github.com/manuel/wat-js
2016-09-02T03:17:37Z cromachina: neat
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2016-09-02T03:49:15Z pillton: phoe: You can also use row-major-aref to assign individual elements in the multi-dimensional array.
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2016-09-02T04:06:29Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-09-02T04:08:42Z beach: Bike: I'll try to work on your issue today.  I am not quite awake yet, so I need more coffee before I have a look.
2016-09-02T04:09:09Z Bike: don't sweat it too much. it's not a big deal, i just noticed it and figured i should file an issue rather than forget about it entirely
2016-09-02T04:09:23Z beach: Yeah, thanks!
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2016-09-02T05:12:11Z loke: Hello Lisp!
2016-09-02T05:12:26Z beach: Hello loke!
2016-09-02T05:12:52Z loke: I have a generic collections library I'm using in a lot of my code. I was thinking of dropping it into QL. However, it needs a good name. Suggestions?
2016-09-02T05:13:03Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/containers
2016-09-02T05:13:33Z loke: In particular, it contains the only fully functional red-black tree implementation for CL that I know of.
2016-09-02T05:14:09Z jackdaniel: clontainers ;)
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2016-09-02T05:14:39Z loke: Oh god no :-)
2016-09-02T05:14:54Z jackdaniel: functional-containers ?
2016-09-02T05:15:01Z loke: They are not functional :-)
2016-09-02T05:15:18Z beach: Yet it is "fully functional"! :)
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2016-09-02T05:15:24Z loke: the package name is dhs-sequences at the moment, but i'd like something shorter and spiffier
2016-09-02T05:15:29Z loke: Hah :-)
2016-09-02T05:15:40Z axion: I would consider documenting it a bit more before being made available via QL
2016-09-02T05:15:51Z loke: Preferably somethign where the name is kinda clear as to what it does
2016-09-02T05:15:59Z loke: axion: Oh I will
2016-09-02T05:16:07Z loke: I'm cleaning up the API's a bit too
2016-09-02T05:16:13Z beach: What other containers does it contain?
2016-09-02T05:17:05Z loke: beach: synchronised and non-synchronised sets and maps (build on standard hashmaps but I'm bringing in a generic hashtable implementation as well which is not committed)
2016-09-02T05:17:11Z loke: queues
2016-09-02T05:17:31Z loke: Generalisation of CAS (calls into platform supported CAS if one exists)
2016-09-02T05:17:35Z axion: priority queue by chance?
2016-09-02T05:17:51Z loke: No priority queue. Got an implementation I get put in there?
2016-09-02T05:18:12Z loke: The focus on this has been to provide a simple, but generic API so that I can easly swap out underlying implementations. Similar idea as Java Collections.
2016-09-02T05:18:41Z axion: cl-heap provides a priority queue iirc
2016-09-02T05:19:03Z loke: I will hook into that one.
2016-09-02T05:19:16Z beach: loke: I suggest "receptacle"
2016-09-02T05:19:29Z beach: [a synonym for "container"]
2016-09-02T05:19:29Z loke: beach: Wow. I have no idea what that word means.
2016-09-02T05:19:33Z loke: Oh :-)
2016-09-02T05:19:51Z beach: ... and it has "cl" in it. :)
2016-09-02T05:20:32Z beach: If you don't use it, I will in the future. :)
2016-09-02T05:20:45Z loke: It's a good idea.
2016-09-02T05:21:07Z loke: Can I change aproject name in github?
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2016-09-02T05:22:55Z axion: Yes
2016-09-02T05:22:55Z beach: loke: If you don't know what a word means, type "define <the-word>" to the Google search engine.
2016-09-02T05:23:12Z jackdaniel: I have Clytemnestra on such "mind-shelf" – but I can't think of any /killer/ project I could name like that ;)
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2016-09-02T05:24:24Z beach: It has got to be something big.
2016-09-02T05:24:33Z beach: Not a dinky library. :)
2016-09-02T05:24:40Z jackdaniel: yeah
2016-09-02T05:25:40Z loke: There, committed
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2016-09-02T05:56:06Z loke: Finally managed to work around the problem in SLIME and Fuzzy-complete, where the buffers were messed up after a completion (I ended up with two windows, showing the same buffer. Incredibly irritating)
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2016-09-02T06:07:06Z pillton: loke: Here are a few good project names. aspell dump master /opt/local/share/aspell/en_GB-ise.multi  | grep cl
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2016-09-02T06:08:07Z pillton: I reserve iconoclasm.
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2016-09-02T07:12:16Z knobo1: Can I make (ps* '(getprop (chain foo bar) test)) without the getprop?
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2016-09-02T07:12:39Z knobo1: with parenscript
2016-09-02T07:12:57Z knobo1: I can with numbers, but not with variables: (ps* '(chain foo bar 0))
2016-09-02T07:13:24Z knobo1: And I call functions: (ps* '(chain foo bar 'argument))
2016-09-02T07:13:47Z knobo1: I want to access an element in an array: "foo.bar[test];"
2016-09-02T07:14:20Z Grue`: in javascript foo.bar.test and foo.bar[test] are not equivalent. the former is equivalent to foo.bar['test']
2016-09-02T07:15:01Z knobo1: in my case, test is a variable that contains a number
2016-09-02T07:15:22Z knobo1: So what I want is "foo.bar[test];
2016-09-02T07:15:43Z knobo1: Like I can get with getprop
2016-09-02T07:15:46Z Grue`: and (chain foo bar test) is obviously foo.bar.test, so it's different from what you want
2016-09-02T07:16:03Z knobo1: So what I want is what i wrote in the first line with getprop.
2016-09-02T07:16:49Z knobo1: But I was wonderig if I could get that without using getprop. Only chain.
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2016-09-02T07:17:39Z knobo1: hmm... the 'argument thing does not work as I thought.
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2016-09-02T07:19:50Z knobo1: And, I should use aref, not getprop.
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2016-09-02T08:37:14Z ecraven: what are .sab files (OpenGenera)?
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2016-09-02T08:46:32Z ecraven: also, nice to read lisp code from Genera and find trailing whitespace :-D maybe zmacs didn't have M-x whitespace-mode
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2016-09-02T08:49:28Z jishankai: exit
2016-09-02T08:49:31Z jishankai: cd raiez
2016-09-02T08:49:37Z jishankai: cd raiezho
2016-09-02T08:49:39Z jishankai: ll
2016-09-02T08:49:53Z jishankai: pubdocu
2016-09-02T08:49:54Z jishankai: ll
2016-09-02T08:53:14Z ecraven: drwxr-xr-x  86 jishankai  users 4.0K Sep  2 10:53 .
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2016-09-02T09:03:52Z jishankai: sorry...
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2016-09-02T10:24:15Z pipping: loke: given that you say your library would contain the only CL implementation of rb-trees, wouldn't it make sense to pull that out into a separate library?
2016-09-02T10:25:09Z loke: pipping: Probably.
2016-09-02T10:25:34Z loke: I wanted to use my code to replace the broken code in cl-collections, but their API is quite messy
2016-09-02T10:25:41Z pipping: (avl tree implementations don't seem to be as rare, otherwise I would've suggested adding one to the resulting library)
2016-09-02T10:28:25Z pipping: loke: I don't seem to be able to find cl-collections through google and it's not on quicklisp
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2016-09-02T10:41:34Z loke: Sorry
2016-09-02T10:41:41Z loke: I meant CL-CONTAINERS
2016-09-02T10:42:05Z loke: It has a red-black implementation that is buggy (it loses elements in some circumstances)
2016-09-02T10:42:29Z loke: Its brokenness was the reason I started implementing mine (based on a referecne implementation in C++)
2016-09-02T10:43:13Z loke: As you can see, they are quite complex and it's easy to get it wrong:
2016-09-02T10:43:13Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/containers/blob/master/src/rbtree.lisp#L70
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2016-09-02T11:45:14Z pipping: right. i remember them as being not exactly straight-forward
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2016-09-02T11:46:19Z pipping: you don't seem to be a fan of (setf p1 v1 p2 v2 ...)
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2016-09-02T12:49:24Z Xach stretches
2016-09-02T12:50:07Z raydeejay: should we make some room? or you're good? ^^
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2016-09-02T13:19:23Z pipping: Xach ignores the gravity of this situ^Wplanet
2016-09-02T13:21:03Z fe[nl]ix: phoe: pong
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2016-09-02T13:47:28Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: nothing anymore, there were some people asking for meeting a channel operator
2016-09-02T13:47:45Z phoe: looks like one more person discovered the Freenode webchat
2016-09-02T13:47:50Z phoe: anyway - bbl.
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2016-09-02T15:07:20Z racketschemer: Where do you put quicklisp package dependencies (libraries) when you don't have system-wide control?
2016-09-02T15:07:40Z Xach: racketschemer: One easy place is in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/
2016-09-02T15:07:50Z Xach: racketschemer: (i tried to answer in #quicklisp but was a few minutes too slow)
2016-09-02T15:08:06Z axion: I have a function A and macro B. A calls B. B generates code to intern A symbol. Both are in the same package. Now suppose I want to call function A from another package. What is the correct way to have B's symbol interned into the new package that called other-package::A? Sorry if this doesn't make much sense. It's giving me a headache too :/
2016-09-02T15:08:08Z Grue``: it doesnt really require system-wide control in general
2016-09-02T15:09:01Z Bike: axion: have B's macroexpansion intern in *package*
2016-09-02T15:09:08Z Xach: axion: one option is to provide the symbol explicitly
2016-09-02T15:10:01Z axion: Bike: I tried that, and it interns into CL-USER
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2016-09-02T15:10:14Z racketschemer: I tried and it doesn't work.
2016-09-02T15:10:23Z Bike: is that what *package* was when you called A? is that not what you want?
2016-09-02T15:11:21Z Grue``: why not just pass package as an argument?
2016-09-02T15:11:31Z axion: No, package is PACKAGE-B. The macro is defined in PACKAGE-A. The result is CL-USER::SYMBOL
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2016-09-02T15:12:31Z Bike: right, and "the new package that called other-package::A" is cl-user, since you did this at the repl probably.
2016-09-02T15:12:41Z Bike: not that packages can call things, strictly speaking
2016-09-02T15:13:14Z axion: The REPL is in PACKAGE-B, if that matters
2016-09-02T15:13:36Z Bike: well, it should, if you did (in-package package-b) at the repl *package* will be package-b
2016-09-02T15:13:47Z axion: Right...hmm :/
2016-09-02T15:13:57Z Bike: I don't think I understand what you're doing or why
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2016-09-02T15:16:03Z axion: package-a has this, and the hash keys as viewed from the calling package are interned into CL-USER: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/59feee6acb8d36e49e61abc2b806f5fe
2016-09-02T15:17:01Z Xach: That looks like it should be a function, not a macro.
2016-09-02T15:17:18Z Xach: axion: Is there a macro rationale?
2016-09-02T15:17:32Z axion: No there isn't other than the same result with a function
2016-09-02T15:17:49Z Xach: It will be easy to get what you want if you go back to a function.
2016-09-02T15:17:57Z Xach: Easier, I should say.
2016-09-02T15:18:10Z axion: Preferably without passing the package name around
2016-09-02T15:18:26Z moore33: axion: I would intern the new symbol in group's package.
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2016-09-02T15:19:23Z Xach: axion: Then you should take it from a symbol that is passed in, or *package*
2016-09-02T15:19:55Z Xach: If you use *package*, you get whatever happens to be *package* when make-vbos was called, which could be pretty much anything.
2016-09-02T15:20:17Z Xach: You could also stash away the read-time value of *package*.
2016-09-02T15:20:45Z Xach: so many options
2016-09-02T15:20:47Z axion: Xach: I tried that with a function: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/f02059d71ff671e6d98a3d6c3679d57f
2016-09-02T15:21:46Z Xach: axion: You did it wrong.
2016-09-02T15:22:03Z Xach: But it is easier to correct and reason about and debug a function than a macro
2016-09-02T15:22:14Z axion: Indeed. I have been doing it wrong for hours :/
2016-09-02T15:22:29Z racketschemer: Should i modify system-index.txt in local-projects to use a library?
2016-09-02T15:22:39Z racketschemer: with quicklisp
2016-09-02T15:22:42Z Xach: racketschemer: no. that file is updated automatically, most of the time.
2016-09-02T15:22:53Z Xach: racketschemer: if it does not update automatically, (ql:register-local-projects) will update it.
2016-09-02T15:23:02Z racketschemer: OK .-)
2016-09-02T15:23:25Z Xach: axion: rather than A and B, can you use the real names and say what you want to happen?
2016-09-02T15:23:58Z racketschemer: returns nil, didn't change anything.
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2016-09-02T15:24:07Z axion: Not really. The idea is to generate symbols in A in whatever package the user use's it in
2016-09-02T15:24:25Z Xach: axion: uses what?
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2016-09-02T15:24:45Z Xach: Does A have a real name?
2016-09-02T15:26:24Z Xach: If you want to intern in a specific package, you could use (intern "foo" (find-package :specific-package))
2016-09-02T15:26:42Z moore33: axion: Again, that should be the package of (name ,group).
2016-09-02T15:26:44Z axion: I'm trying to create accessor functions in the calling package, which could be anything the user calls my library from
2016-09-02T15:28:14Z Xach: axion: you have to think of it more as "i want to create functions named by symbols interned in the value of *package* at function call time", and if that's not what you want, rethink, but in the right terms.
2016-09-02T15:28:15Z moore33: axion: As you're finding out, it's hard to nail down the "calling package."
2016-09-02T15:29:26Z axion: The idea is for a user to :USE my package in their own, and not have to qualify these generated symbols
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2016-09-02T15:30:03Z moore33: axion: Then why not intern in your package?
2016-09-02T15:30:24Z axion: I would still need to export them, which is not known, because the symbols are generated from user code
2016-09-02T15:30:29Z Xach: axion: what kind of object is group?
2016-09-02T15:30:49Z Xach: axion: EXPORT will deal with that fine. But it's not great because redefinition variance warnings.
2016-09-02T15:30:52Z Grue``: why not just keywords
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2016-09-02T15:31:48Z axion: Xach: a CLOS instance
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2016-09-02T15:33:41Z racketschemer: What i get when i try to refresh local-projects: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/e35dede84a7c05c50c87c92241e3de6d
2016-09-02T15:35:48Z racketschemer: ? is the prompt
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2016-09-02T15:41:31Z Xach: racketschemer: what do you have in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/?
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2016-09-02T15:41:39Z Xach: racketschemer: did you put a Common Lisp project there?
2016-09-02T15:42:32Z racketschemer: No, i put sdl2 sdl2_ttf, and sdl2-image. The mac os x frameworks.
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2016-09-02T15:43:00Z Xach: racketschemer: quicklisp can only load common lisp projects, and they have to be loadable with an asdf system file (*.asd).
2016-09-02T15:43:14Z Xach: racketschemer: i don't know where you can put the frameworks to make it work, sorry.
2016-09-02T15:43:55Z racketschemer: But there's a ton of packates that need libraries written in c
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2016-09-02T15:44:20Z pipping: racketschemer: you'll need to install those in a place where packages can find them
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2016-09-02T15:44:57Z Xach: racketschemer: That's true. I think there is a user directory on Mac OS X that can be used for user frameworks. But I don't know enough about it to say.
2016-09-02T15:45:03Z pipping: racketschemer: like /System/Library/Frameworks, /Library/Frameworks, ~/Library/Frameworks
2016-09-02T15:45:10Z Xach: racketschemer: I tend to avoid projects that are wrappers around foreign libraries
2016-09-02T15:45:53Z racketschemer: The poblem is that when i try to cp a framework, i start to get weird problems.
2016-09-02T15:46:19Z pipping: racketschemer: like what problems? you know they're directories, right?
2016-09-02T15:46:41Z racketschemer: yes, i do. I'm going to post a gist.
2016-09-02T15:46:55Z racketschemer: so you can see the results.
2016-09-02T15:47:34Z aeth: racketschemer: if you're doing SDL stuff, you might also be interested in the channel #lispgames
2016-09-02T15:47:51Z racketschemer: OK, Ill check :-)
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2016-09-02T15:55:55Z Fare: racketschemer: if you're using Linux or are willing to hack it, Bazel can build Common Lisp software including C libraries.
2016-09-02T15:56:08Z Fare: no ASDF involved.
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2016-09-02T15:56:19Z Fare: dammit, he lef.
2016-09-02T15:57:03Z Fare: Bazelisp hasn' received much love since May :-(
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2016-09-02T16:08:12Z abstract-alf: any haskellers here?
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2016-09-02T16:09:43Z malice`: abstract-alf: I'd try at #haskell or just ask a question and see if anyone answers
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2016-09-02T16:11:07Z abstract-alf: I'm hoping to talk to an experienced lisper who is also a haskeller
2016-09-02T16:11:22Z abstract-alf: more lisp than haskell
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2016-09-02T16:13:07Z abstract-alf: anybody use haskell and then choose to use lisp too?
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2016-09-02T16:13:45Z Fare: abstract-alf, kind of
2016-09-02T16:13:53Z abstract-alf: tell me
2016-09-02T16:14:11Z Fare: I never used haskell in anger, so that probably doesn't count
2016-09-02T16:14:16Z Fare: but I read about it a lot
2016-09-02T16:14:16Z abstract-alf: haha, what?
2016-09-02T16:14:45Z Fare: but I like to hang around haskellers
2016-09-02T16:14:52Z abstract-alf: why is that?
2016-09-02T16:14:57Z Fare: what is your question?
2016-09-02T16:15:03Z Fare: don't ask about asking
2016-09-02T16:15:12Z abstract-alf: I just asked you a question
2016-09-02T16:15:22Z abstract-alf: I don't have exactly one
2016-09-02T16:15:25Z Fare: I like types
2016-09-02T16:15:35Z abstract-alf: yeah, I like types too
2016-09-02T16:15:40Z Fare: I just am not satisfied when they aren't expressive enough
2016-09-02T16:15:44Z abstract-alf: do you miss them when you use lisp?
2016-09-02T16:16:26Z Fare: sometimes, I do, yes
2016-09-02T16:16:50Z Fare: recently, I relied on types in ocaml to refactor a python program via translation back and forth
2016-09-02T16:16:50Z abstract-alf: sometimes haskell types aren't expressive enough.. what about lisp *is* expressive enough?
2016-09-02T16:17:06Z Fare: abstract-alf, staged computations
2016-09-02T16:17:11Z Fare: orthogonal persistence
2016-09-02T16:17:19Z ggole: Template Haskell is pretty rough.
2016-09-02T16:17:32Z abstract-alf: Fair, hmmm, I haven't heard of either of those
2016-09-02T16:17:58Z abstract-alf: ggole, they don't really compare to lisp macros, huh
2016-09-02T16:17:59Z ggole: It's *really nice* to be able to say (defun foo () ...) and then (defmacro bar () <uses foo>) and have it just work (and to be able to call foo as you please in regular code too).
2016-09-02T16:18:02Z Fare: the kind of stuff I do in my thesis: fare.tunes.org/tmp/phd/thesis.pdf
2016-09-02T16:18:15Z abstract-alf: ggole, as opposed to what?
2016-09-02T16:18:35Z ggole: As opposed to the complex macro facilities you get in the typed ML family languages
2016-09-02T16:18:41Z abstract-alf: ah
2016-09-02T16:18:47Z Fare: abstract-alf, as opposed to putting them in separate files, and having them deal with different universes
2016-09-02T16:18:58Z abstract-alf: "different universes"
2016-09-02T16:19:30Z abstract-alf: ah, so you can't call user-defined functions from your haskell macros?
2016-09-02T16:19:46Z abstract-alf: they don't mix the same as they do in lisp?
2016-09-02T16:19:59Z ggole: You can use arbitrary Haskell code in Template Haskell, but there is a very explicit staging divide.
2016-09-02T16:20:24Z abstract-alf: ggole, what sorts of things have you tried to do in template haskell when you encountered these limitations?
2016-09-02T16:20:32Z abstract-alf: I mean what kinds of applications
2016-09-02T16:20:45Z ggole: You might find http://blog.ezyang.com/2016/07/what-template-haskell-gets-wrong-and-racket-gets-right/ to be an interesting read (from a Haskell perspective)
2016-09-02T16:21:31Z ggole: I've never written a serious thing in template Haskell, only played with it
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2016-09-02T16:21:51Z ggole: Partly because it's pretty painful, and partly because Haskell offers quite a lot to play with in the unadorned language
2016-09-02T16:22:36Z abstract-alf: thanks for the link
2016-09-02T16:22:47Z abstract-alf: what sorts of applications to you write in lisp?
2016-09-02T16:22:51Z ggole: I also tried to wrap my head around camlp4, a similar effort in another typed language, which was similarly complex
2016-09-02T16:24:33Z abstract-alf: Fare, just read your abstract.  you use the phrase "semantic tower" a few times.. are you referring to an Abstract Syntax Tree?
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2016-09-02T16:26:30Z pipping: Fare: oh, hi!
2016-09-02T16:26:36Z abstract-alf: ggole, it sounds like you've dabbled in several ML-like functional languages. what drives your curiosity?
2016-09-02T16:26:53Z ggole: I mostly write OCaml these days
2016-09-02T16:27:13Z abstract-alf: oh, what sorts of applications do you write
2016-09-02T16:27:14Z abstract-alf: ?
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2016-09-02T16:27:27Z ggole: Compilers are my main interest
2016-09-02T16:27:48Z abstract-alf: ok, that explains it
2016-09-02T16:27:59Z abstract-alf: ever written a compiler in a lisp?
2016-09-02T16:28:31Z ggole: A few small ones, mostly compiling to something less involved than machine code
2016-09-02T16:28:38Z ggole: (A backend is a lot of work.)
2016-09-02T16:29:37Z abstract-alf: I have no doubt
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2016-09-02T16:30:37Z abstract-alf: did you find lisp to be insufficient to build a compiler that compiles to machine code?
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2016-09-02T16:31:16Z ggole: No, it would be fine for that job.
2016-09-02T16:31:30Z ggole: I just got addicted to data types and pattern matching.
2016-09-02T16:31:45Z abstract-alf: oh, yeah. I'm addicted to those to
2016-09-02T16:31:55Z abstract-alf: hurts when I have to write c#
2016-09-02T16:32:17Z abstract-alf: does lisp have/need any sort of pattern matching?
2016-09-02T16:32:37Z ggole: There are various macro libraries that do a respectable job
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2016-09-02T16:34:56Z jasom: optima being most notable
2016-09-02T16:35:43Z jasom: I wrote a routing library for clack where the route is defined as merely an optima expression
2016-09-02T16:36:05Z jasom: since clack delivers you the environment in a plist it was quite natural
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2016-09-02T16:36:37Z abstract-alf: you match each parameter in the list?
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2016-09-02T16:36:44Z abstract-alf: err property
2016-09-02T16:36:56Z jasom: abstract-alf: you *can* but don't need to
2016-09-02T16:38:18Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/cl-fccs/blob/e01f45a00577c22200ffdf8113efc421d3f00e10/src/admin.lisp#L37 <-- some examples
2016-09-02T16:38:31Z abstract-alf: thanks
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2016-09-02T17:12:16Z Fare: isn't trivia replacing optima, these days?
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2016-09-02T17:19:27Z jasom: Fare: I've never heard of trivia
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2016-09-02T17:21:53Z jasom: looks like it's a drop-in replacement, but faster and more extensible.  Sounds good to me.
2016-09-02T17:22:31Z jasom: it's harder to google for though
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2016-09-02T17:25:49Z Fare: pipping, hi
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2016-09-02T17:26:19Z Fare: ggole, hi - you write compilers and you like Lisp?
2016-09-02T17:27:04Z ggole: Yup.
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2016-09-02T17:38:07Z Fare: ggole: I'm looking for help with implementing a modern Lisp with runtime reflection.
2016-09-02T17:38:18Z Fare: see my thesis above
2016-09-02T17:38:56Z Fare: in which I could demonstrate semantic-based migration.
2016-09-02T17:39:25Z ggole: Runtime reflection?
2016-09-02T17:39:27Z ggole reads
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2016-09-02T17:42:53Z Fare: thanks!
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2016-09-02T17:44:17Z jasom: Fare: "semantic-based migration" I think I'm not understanding which use of migration you mean in that sentenc
2016-09-02T17:46:45Z Fare: jasom: see chapter 6 (unfinished, but already half done) in thesis above
2016-09-02T17:47:19Z Fare: http://fare.tunes.org/tmp/phd/thesis.pdf
2016-09-02T17:47:28Z Fare: OK, working on completing the chapter...
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2016-09-02T17:49:37Z jasom: ah, migration is runtime refactoring?
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2016-09-02T17:50:13Z jasom: so provably semantic-preserving runtime refactoring?
2016-09-02T17:51:29Z jasom: ah "Migration is the change of a program's underlying implementation while it's running" so migration means more than just refactoring
2016-09-02T17:51:57Z jasom: but for the subset of migrations that preserve semantics, that would be runtime refactoring
2016-09-02T17:52:38Z jasom: however, in a fully reflective system, you can't make changes without some observable change to semantics, correct?
2016-09-02T17:54:09Z jasom: obviously refactoring isn't necessarrily preserving all semantics, just the ones that are important to the proper functioning of the program.
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2016-09-02T17:55:47Z jasom: I see with a quick browse that you distinguish between the abstract and concrete semantics and states of a program.
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2016-09-02T17:56:57Z pipping: Fare: (I'm in #asdf to make it easier for rpg, you, and me to chat)
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2016-09-02T17:57:33Z ggole: Hmm
2016-09-02T17:57:43Z ggole: There's a lot of stuff here, and I only recognise a few bits
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2016-09-02T17:59:22Z ggole: I'm reminded of various JIT compiler tricks, but of course this is far more abstract
2016-09-02T17:59:48Z jasom: ggole: in 6.3.1 he specifically calls out JITs as a concrete example of migration
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2016-09-02T18:04:46Z jasom: Fare: Your examples were helpful to my understanding too.  In some cases the source code would be the abstract model.  That speaks well to possible practical applications (formal ways of representing computations that *aren't* source code have yet to catch on).
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2016-09-02T18:06:59Z jasom: One really simple use of migration that would interest me is to switch between optimized and debug-instrumented implementations to improve debugability.
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2016-09-02T18:07:35Z ggole: jasom: yeah, just got there. The GC example was a bit unexpected.
2016-09-02T18:08:10Z jasom: Though this hinges on an observable system being able to be implemented with some performance advantage over a debug-instrumented implementatin.
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2016-09-02T18:09:10Z jasom: Painless process migration would be nice.  The same way that heat and running water are nice.
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2016-09-02T18:11:18Z ggole: Handling failure seems like it would be a lot of fun
2016-09-02T18:14:44Z ggole: Well, that was a thought provoking skim-read. I'm left a bit uncertain what the concrete plan is - perhaps to develop a system that can perform various kinds of migration in a unified way?
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2016-09-02T18:16:05Z ggole: I can see the appeal of the idea of not having a bunch of delicate hand-written stuff to achieve things like on-stack replacement, but I don't think it would be an easy thing to abstract.
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2016-09-02T18:17:10Z Fare: Sorry, disconnected.
2016-09-02T18:17:20Z Fare: ggole: it probably helps if you start at ch. 1
2016-09-02T18:17:33Z Fare: while I finish writing ch. 6
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2016-09-02T18:49:35Z jasom: so I now can get a list of the cffi load clauses when there is a missing library.  Next step is to turn that into a nix expression.
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2016-09-02T18:55:35Z Fare: jasom: :-)
2016-09-02T18:55:43Z Fare: automatic asdf to nix?
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2016-09-02T18:55:48Z Fare: including cffi support?
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2016-09-02T18:55:58Z Fare: that could be cool
2016-09-02T18:56:07Z Fare: also automatic asdf to bazel, etc.
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2016-09-02T19:04:06Z Xach: jasom: "now" meaning you figured it out from what cffi already supports? or does it require cffi hacks?
2016-09-02T19:04:40Z Xach: jasom: I pushed for detailed error objects on failed foreign loads so i could gather that stuff for a quicklisp database of some sort, but haven't taken any advantage yet
2016-09-02T19:04:59Z jasom: Xach: I was able to do it from what cffi already supports
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2016-09-02T19:05:06Z jasom: it gives the library name in the error object
2016-09-02T19:05:15Z jasom: I can cffi::get-foreign-library from there
2016-09-02T19:06:21Z Fare: and then use apt-file search or the nixos equivalent to locate the package that provides it?
2016-09-02T19:06:36Z Fare: what is the nixos equivalent of apt-file search, if any?
2016-09-02T19:06:43Z jasom: There is no apt-file equivalent
2016-09-02T19:06:48Z jasom: since it's a source-based distro
2016-09-02T19:06:52Z jasom: I'm seeing if it's possible to search hydra
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2016-09-02T19:09:15Z jasom: And that's https://nixos.org/hydra/ not http://www.nixhydra.com/
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2016-09-02T19:22:56Z Fare: jasom: hydra could totally have a searchable database
2016-09-02T19:23:44Z Fare: definitely not nixos.com either (Warning: NSFW)
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2016-09-02T20:29:19Z rpg: I wonder if anyone can help -- I'm using buildapp and when I try to build a system it just belches "Fatal c-string-decoding-error: :utf-8 c-string decoding error: the octet sequence #(198 77) cannot be decoded.
2016-09-02T20:29:27Z racketschemer: How does quicklisp load libraries (.dll, .framework, .dylib, .so) for packages? I'm currently having problems with this.
2016-09-02T20:29:35Z rpg: I have ABSOLUTELY no idea what would be calling it.
2016-09-02T20:29:37Z Xach: racketschemer: quicklisp does not do that
2016-09-02T20:30:09Z Xach: racketschemer: each library loads their own. it is done with cffi. the libraries must be present and findable on the system before quickloading the project.
2016-09-02T20:30:30Z racketschemer: But the SDL is a dependency of some of the packages i need to install.
2016-09-02T20:30:51Z racketschemer: Oh, thank you :-)
2016-09-02T20:33:39Z rpg: any idea why buildapp would be choking on utf8? As a USian, I didn't even realize i was using UTF-8.
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2016-09-02T20:35:27Z Xach: rpg: UTF-8 is generally the default. If a system has sources encoded otherwise, it would signal an error like that.
2016-09-02T20:35:55Z Xach: rpg: buildapp "just" calls sbcl with a series of commands to load files and systems. If you take buildapp out of the loop, it may be easier to isolate the problem.
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2016-09-02T20:37:55Z Xach: rpg: there's also a secret command-line option, --dumpfile-copy something.lisp. after that you can inspect something.lisp to see what it's doing and in what order.
2016-09-02T20:38:33Z rpg: Xach: Thanks. When I load the corresponding system in slime, all is well, so I don't believe it's the system sources.
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2016-09-02T20:39:01Z Xach: It is possible that your emacs+slime environment differs in some critical way from the command-line environment.
2016-09-02T20:39:19Z rpg: yeah, since this is Kubuntu....
2016-09-02T20:40:26Z rpg: could be unicoding without asking me
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2016-09-02T20:45:45Z rpg: Dang. It seems to crash before it even gets to writing the dumpfile
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2016-09-02T20:53:58Z Xach: rpg: what does the command-line look like?
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2016-09-02T20:55:57Z rpg: http://paste.lisp.org/+6YPC
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2016-09-02T21:04:35Z Xach: rpg: do you have any interesting directory names in your paths?
2016-09-02T21:04:45Z rpg: I don't believe so.
2016-09-02T21:04:45Z Xach: Something with "ÆM" somewhere, or something?
2016-09-02T21:05:03Z rpg: Unless there's something in the XMLS test directory
2016-09-02T21:06:20Z rpg: Yes, that seems to be it, thanks.
2016-09-02T21:06:35Z Xach: Was it in the xmls test directory?
2016-09-02T21:06:51Z rpg: I don't know -- hard to focus it's in an enormous tree.
2016-09-02T21:10:34Z rpg: but you were right, pruning the ASDF search path made this go away.
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2016-09-02T21:17:43Z Xach: phew
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2016-09-02T21:51:28Z mordocai: Random thought: So, lisp images. You can connect to them remotely with sly/slime/other tech. So, let's say you have a team doing a hackathon/otherwise working super collaboratively. Are there any major negatives to having everyone connect to the *same* lisp image and work on code collaboratively that way?
2016-09-02T21:51:44Z mordocai posted to a local slack channel and got some interesting thoughts, now wants to hear IRC's take
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2016-09-02T21:55:16Z JuanDaugherty: assuming the app was written for multiple users
2016-09-02T21:55:25Z easye: mordocai: It would work, but that's not the way we usually program.
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2016-09-02T21:56:29Z mordocai: easye: Right, the reason I had the idea was it seems like it might be useful on time sensitive protoyping like a hackathon instead of having to merge changes via version control or other systems constantly.
2016-09-02T21:56:36Z easye: It would be more like a 90's MOO was like.  (A MOO was an object oriented interactive fiction system that allowed one to program objects from inside the world.
2016-09-02T21:56:59Z easye: And the MOO was networked via TCP)
2016-09-02T21:57:45Z easye: We had some cool bots.
2016-09-02T21:58:26Z moore33: Is lambdaMOO still running? It was recently.
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2016-09-02T21:58:56Z easye: mordocai: The problem is that on top of the normal challenges of learning to code under pressure, what other people do now has non-deterministic dies effects on your code.
2016-09-02T21:59:06Z easye: s/dies/side/
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2016-09-02T21:59:56Z mordocai: easye: Right, at least in my head though those kind of side effects already happen in other collaboration methods, they are just delayed longer normally.
2016-09-02T21:59:58Z easye still has the images for the fly.net MOO
2016-09-02T22:00:35Z easye: Yeah.  But consider what happens when one redfines #'+ in all environments?
2016-09-02T22:00:51Z easye: All those FIB problems you were working now become harder.
2016-09-02T22:01:04Z easye: (you can still use #'-)
2016-09-02T22:02:00Z mordocai: Well don't redefined #'+ :P
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2016-09-02T22:02:35Z mordocai: An actor based system would probably be ideal if you wanted to run with this kind of thing
2016-09-02T22:02:39Z xantoz: what about having functions be lexically bound in this case? (although that introduces tons of new problems, like when somebody fixed a function used by yours)
2016-09-02T22:03:42Z xantoz: or rather, statically. at compile-time
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2016-09-02T22:07:40Z mordocai: xantoz: Interesting though yeah. Somewhat similar to my actor idea. Everything is encapsulated in the actor so if you make a new version of it existing instances wouldn't be effected by any of the changes. Of course, that could lead to its own problems like you mention.
2016-09-02T22:07:44Z mordocai: thought*
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2016-09-02T22:11:15Z easye: A program can be thought of creating a series of worlds (stack frames) in its execution.  As long as the initial state can be reset (i.e. restore the ANSI semantics of all 1048 symbols #'+ #'LET et. al.), then you can always construct a reasonably walled garden to have a competition.
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2016-09-02T22:16:07Z rpg: Thanks, Xach!
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2016-09-02T22:24:17Z racketschemer: Does anyone use the sketch engine in there?
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2016-09-02T22:36:59Z edgar-rft: racketschemer: if you're talking about <https://github.com/vydd/sketch> then the folks in #lispgames probably know that better than we
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2016-09-02T23:20:28Z jasom: Is it possible to set ASDF to have two fasl cache directories for the same source path?  My use case is a system-wide cache, plus a user-cache for those systems that compile files dynamically.
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2016-09-02T23:27:10Z xantoz: mordocai: it could probably be bodged together with a macro that outputs things like: (let ((fun-a #'+) (fun-b #'*)) (defun myfun (x y) (funcall fun-a x (funcall fun-b y 2))))
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