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2016-08-22T00:15:15Z pillton: Bike: What type inferencing algorithm did you use?
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2016-08-22T00:39:44Z Bike: right now i'm using beach's, which probably doesn't have a name
2016-08-22T00:40:06Z pillton: Does it use unification or forwards/backwards iteration?
2016-08-22T00:41:22Z Bike: forwards iteration. there are no type variables.
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2016-08-22T00:42:43Z Bike: how it goes: make a hash table where the keys are control arcs and the values are alists variable -> type, where the variables are only those live at that arc and the types are initially T. make a work list and put every instruction on it. iterate the work list. for each instruction, compute the output types from the input types, and put this information in the hash table. if there's a change, put the
2016-08-22T00:42:49Z Bike: successors of the instruction back on the work list.
2016-08-22T00:43:04Z Bike: did that cut off? i'm never sure how long messages work
2016-08-22T00:43:18Z pillton: I got it all.
2016-08-22T00:44:11Z Bike: ok cool.
2016-08-22T00:44:46Z Bike: obviously this doesn't resemble HM or anything. and i think it will probably hang on (loop for x = (the (eql 3) 3) then (1+ x)), if the type lattice was fine enough, which it is presently not.
2016-08-22T00:44:56Z pillton: Ok. I've seen a paper with something similar.
2016-08-22T00:45:32Z pillton: I'm struggling to understand how this algorithm works when you evaluate a branch of a conditional.
2016-08-22T00:46:54Z Bike: a general condition could be anything. cleavir has a "typeq" conditional, which is basically (if (typep something 'a-type) then else). is it obvious how the algorithm treats that?
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2016-08-22T00:48:09Z pillton: That case is fine, it is the (if (my-predicate x) then else) which I find hard. I can see it working with a unification approach.
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2016-08-22T00:48:35Z pillton: Though, I can't find the algorithm for performing the unification.
2016-08-22T00:49:42Z Bike: the initial plan is to inline aggressively, so that hopefully (my-predicate x) will end up something more amenable to analysis. since my-predicate could be literally anything it's hard to saw anything general.
2016-08-22T00:50:19Z Bike: one generalization/expansion is to treat the types of functions as functions on types, but that's pretty far off
2016-08-22T00:50:24Z Bike: to say anything*
2016-08-22T00:52:53Z Bike: this is seriously provisional. right now cleavir has no type inference. by tomorrow it might be to the point of realizing that in (cons (car x) (cdr x)) it does not need to check that x is a list twice
2016-08-22T00:56:01Z pillton: Right. Does it support polymorphism?
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2016-08-22T00:57:28Z Bike: pillton, let me introduce you to the cleavir type system https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/master/Code/Cleavir/Type-inference/update.lisp#L14-L29
2016-08-22T00:58:11Z pillton: Oh right.
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2016-08-22T00:59:42Z pillton: All right. I might try a couple of schemes then and see how I fair.
2016-08-22T01:00:18Z Bike: i mean, i've read tapl. i can do math later. right now i want to kill a few type checks.
2016-08-22T01:00:49Z Bike: common lisp types are like categorically different from most research on types, so... difficulties
2016-08-22T01:01:19Z pillton: I'm skim reading TAPL at the moment. It proposes a unifcation approach.
2016-08-22T01:02:57Z pillton: As does "A Practical Approach to Type Inference for EuLisp" by Kind and Friedrich.
2016-08-22T01:05:06Z pillton: The later has its limits since it encodes types as bit codes.
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2016-08-22T01:10:48Z pillton: Speaking of TAPL, do you have a cheat sheet for the notation?
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2016-08-22T01:35:54Z Bike: it's that bullshit version of implication, right? thing on top implies thing on bottom. and that gamma thing http://cs.stackexchange.com/a/41837
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2016-08-22T01:44:26Z rumbler31: I was doing a long-running calculation and landed in the debugger.  The problem was easy to fix, but when I issued a slime restart frame, ccl came back with "%apply-in-frame has bitrotted"  I can eval in frames all I want, but are explicit constructs of restart-case et al necessary in order to recover from errors after landing in the debugger, or is there intrinsic restarting capability in slime, or ccl, or what?  this part is new to me
2016-08-22T01:45:29Z rumbler31: I know that its sort of a ccl specific thing, but generally, I can see how when in the slime debugger I can inspect and change objects and values, but I haven't yet been able to figure out if restarting execution is supposed to be supported, or if Im making assumptions about how things work
2016-08-22T01:46:07Z pillton: Bike: Yeah. It is the problem of "ok, I'm on page 322, what does <notation> mean again? and has its definition changed since it was first introduced?"
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2016-08-22T01:46:32Z pillton: Bike: I should start a wiki.
2016-08-22T01:47:03Z pillton: Bike: Then I can relive the early 2000s.
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2016-08-22T01:49:24Z pillton: rumbler31: The idea of restarts are part of the cl standard. I don't use those fancy implementation specific features.
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2016-08-22T01:50:20Z pillton: rumbler31: I recommend implementing your "long-running calculation" so it is restartable.
2016-08-22T01:50:32Z rumbler31: pillton: so you're saying you end up explicitly coding all of the restarts you care about, but don't find yourself in the debugger continuing execution, you simply start it all over again?
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2016-08-22T01:52:09Z pillton: rumbler31: No. I implement my stuff so it is restartable. There is always some idiot on the clusters I use who consumes all of the diskspace or allocates 128G of memory.
2016-08-22T01:52:12Z Bike: for convenience, we introduce the slight abuse of notation that in the remainder of this paper beginning at the previous sentence, 'define' means 'undefine'. next,
2016-08-22T01:52:47Z pillton: rumbler31: Or, I need this new result based off of this old data.
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2016-08-22T01:53:48Z pillton: rumber31: Or, today, there are 15 people competing for resources.
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2016-08-22T01:55:32Z pillton: Bike: Yes! Think of the non-linear readers people!
2016-08-22T01:55:59Z Bike: heh, and tapl has that ridiculous chapter precession chart, too
2016-08-22T01:56:45Z rumbler31: yea, I should have coded it up more carefully, but I also was hoping that slime would help me correct things and restart execution.  And if that is generally a thing that #lisp expects should be doable then I will try to figure out where my installation is lacking, or if this is something that isn't common or isn't understood to be supported, then I won't spend too much time on it
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2016-08-22T01:57:24Z slyrus: knobo: fixed and pushed
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2016-08-22T01:57:46Z slyrus: Xach: not sure how long it's been broken, but can you put the latest opticl in the next quicklisp?
2016-08-22T01:58:06Z Xach: slyrus: sure
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2016-08-22T01:58:31Z slyrus: thanks!
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2016-08-22T03:08:24Z loke__: Hello Lisp!
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2016-08-22T03:25:51Z Seteeri: hi! is anyone familiar with iterate?
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2016-08-22T03:28:54Z loke__: Seteeri: No. But I know LOOP pretty well.
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2016-08-22T03:29:57Z Seteeri: I'm trying to figure out how to translate a simple loop statement into an iterate one
2016-08-22T03:31:43Z loke__: Seteeri: why?
2016-08-22T03:32:06Z Seteeri: For exploratory purposes
2016-08-22T03:32:45Z loke__: OK, have fun. :-)  I won't be able to help you. I never found iterate particularly interesting.
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2016-08-22T03:41:53Z rumbler3_: I have a long running calculation that seems to be creating a heap size into the double digit gigabytes.  I convert a largish file, 800 megs or so, into a list of objects.  this seems to inflate the data out to about 1.5-2 gig in memory.  For a set of files, I inflate one into a list, process the list of objects and store an alist of values, and collect these alists as I go.  after about 200 files, I now have a heap of size 12gb, and when I
2016-08-22T03:41:54Z rumbler3_: pause the calc and invoke room and ccl::heap-utilization, it tells me that the i have essentially 10 gb of cons
2016-08-22T03:42:40Z rumbler3_: the alists are lists of numbers, I wouldn't expect a list of several million numbers to get to be 10 gb of cons, but maybe I need to sit down with a calc
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2016-08-22T03:46:46Z rumbler3_: how can I get more visibility into what is going on in regards to garbage collecting?  my first approach that got me far was to increase the size of lisp heap size increases, since as I read in a file that I expect to be of a certain size, but I only read in one at a time and then condense the data down and move on
2016-08-22T03:48:19Z rumbler3_: instead of having to reallocate every few mb, I can reallocate less often with a more appropriate amount of space.  While I'm doing this for several hundred files, I figured that retaining vm pages throughout this process would help, but I am ignorant of this as I assume it means (you just asked for x amount of resources and now you want to free them, only to immediately turn around and ask for them again)
2016-08-22T03:48:54Z rumbler3_: but I figured that if I didn't do this I would avoid holding on to resources I don't end up using, so with this latest run, I am not retaining pages, but still have a large heap size
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2016-08-22T04:03:56Z akkad: mmap possible?
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2016-08-22T04:09:39Z rumbler3_: i dont know
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2016-08-22T04:14:48Z rumbler3_: I guess so.  it will make some of what I want to do later more complicated.
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2016-08-22T04:15:32Z akkad: hmm.
2016-08-22T04:15:34Z akkad: what sort of logs?
2016-08-22T04:15:52Z akkad: something you could use pgloader to put into a db and then use?
2016-08-22T04:16:20Z rumbler3_: objects that are modified and need to be written back, may be of a different size than originally read in.  the mmmap approach would only help when crunching on them, and later I do plan on needing to make new objects.  Although I guess I could just always write to a new file...
2016-08-22T04:17:35Z rumbler3_: the logs are mostly binary, and contain vehicle telemetry, encoder positions, temperatures, etc.  an hour's worth of data consumes about 800 megs or so
2016-08-22T04:17:46Z rumbler3_: tagged structure similar to a wav file
2016-08-22T04:18:10Z akkad: interesting. got any code you are allowed to demo? or demo data?
2016-08-22T04:20:21Z rumbler3_: not yet. but, i've been meaning to publish some parts, although really I think that at least for the work i've done so far, it can mostly be replaced by PCL's binary types implementation
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2016-08-22T04:21:05Z rumbler3_: so really, if you've read that chapter of pcl, its that, except with most of the class stuff that allows composite types to be represented and composed into one object, right now I just pick apart composite objects and store them in a list
2016-08-22T04:21:53Z rumbler3_: and my syntax doesn't take advantage of specifying a reader/writer inside the definition, I have a macro function with a case for that, and I haven't bothered to write writer generating code yet
2016-08-22T04:22:27Z akkad: interesting
2016-08-22T04:23:21Z rumbler3_: I read enough of the chapter back when I was starting with lisp, and I didn't understand the class composition stuff at first, but my memory of how to get it done stuck, so after I finally started and referenced the book, I was like, Its uncanny how similar the described task fits my needs
2016-08-22T04:24:26Z rumbler3_: and i've been hoping to keep my understanding about lisp and memory inside lisp, since I figure i'm not the first person to be in this position, although on irc I guess I seem to be, you're not the first person to suggest going out to mmap
2016-08-22T04:25:36Z rumbler3_: another approach I was considering was moving my crunch code down so that it happens on each object right after it's read, but I haven't figured out how to make that clean yet.
2016-08-22T04:26:03Z rumbler3_: I assumed it would keep the memory costs down, but again, clearly i've made other assumptions that have turned out to be wrong
2016-08-22T04:26:44Z rumbler3_: as I figured expanding one file at a time shouldn't cost more than a gb or two and for what I'm doing I don't care right now.
2016-08-22T04:39:45Z akkad: rumbler3_: how does your code run on sbcl vs ccl?
2016-08-22T04:39:59Z akkad: i find binary file operations tend to be very fast under sbcl by comparison
2016-08-22T04:40:25Z rumbler3_: I haven't run it on sbcl yet
2016-08-22T04:40:48Z akkad: may make a major difference
2016-08-22T04:41:16Z akkad: ironclad/chipz/salza/scrypt all show great benefit from sbcl vs ccl/allegro/lw
2016-08-22T04:41:55Z rumbler3_: on a tangent, is it better to install slime via quicklisp or slime via mepla?
2016-08-22T04:42:11Z akkad: quicklisp
2016-08-22T04:42:22Z akkad: ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper
2016-08-22T04:42:45Z akkad: and something like  ;;(load (expand-file-name (concat dotfiles-dir "quicklisp/slime-helper.el")))
2016-08-22T04:42:45Z akkad:  
2016-08-22T04:43:10Z akkad:  (when (file-exists-p "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el") (load (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el")) ;; rather
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2016-08-22T04:49:35Z rumbler3_: at the moment, it looks like the melpa version is newer?  but anyways, thanks for the help.  I guess I can try sbcl and see what happens
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2016-08-22T05:10:58Z knobo: slyrus: no url. I use it on a backend for an infokiosk.
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2016-08-22T05:28:13Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-08-22T05:28:45Z jackdaniel: beach: hey o/ we've encountered really disturbing bug in clim with loke__ ^_^
2016-08-22T05:29:00Z beach: The one with OBJECT?
2016-08-22T05:29:32Z jackdaniel: yes
2016-08-22T05:29:39Z beach: Very weird.
2016-08-22T05:29:50Z beach: Sounds like someone took the spec a bit too literally.
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2016-08-22T05:31:05Z Bike: in positive news, check it http://imgur.com/a/5r7TY
2016-08-22T05:31:17Z Bike: candid before and after shots
2016-08-22T05:32:16Z beach: Bike: Making progress?
2016-08-22T05:32:39Z Bike: yeah! it works!
2016-08-22T05:32:45Z Bike: though it leaves a few stray predecessors around.
2016-08-22T05:32:48Z beach: What does it do?
2016-08-22T05:33:06Z Bike: removes impossible typeq branches
2016-08-22T05:33:15Z Bike: the top picture is before, the bottom is after
2016-08-22T05:33:20Z beach: Wow, already! Impressive.
2016-08-22T05:34:06Z beach: The top picture is smaller though.
2016-08-22T05:34:19Z Bike: oh drat, it got ordered backwards.
2016-08-22T05:34:25Z beach: Oh, that explains it.
2016-08-22T05:34:33Z Bike: ok, the top picture is after. the one with all the type errors is the one without pruning.
2016-08-22T05:34:42Z beach: Very nice!
2016-08-22T05:35:18Z Bike: the amount of redundant assignment instructions means it still checks the cons twice, but that's better than eight times
2016-08-22T05:35:37Z beach: Heh, right.
2016-08-22T05:36:11Z beach: To remove the second check in (let ((a (car x)) (b (cdr x))) ...) requires a different transformation that I have designed.
2016-08-22T05:36:29Z beach: It replicates the paths between the CAR and the CDR.
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2016-08-22T05:37:19Z beach: Bike: That's very impressive work!
2016-08-22T05:37:28Z beach: Bike: Thanks for doing that!
2016-08-22T05:37:36Z Bike: it's more fragile than i'd like, but it's goin pretty well, yeah
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2016-08-22T05:38:00Z beach: Sure.  There are a lot of details to consider.
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2016-08-22T05:40:19Z Bike: do you have any suggestions for totally cutting out a path? as is, all the instructions are still accessible in that they're predecessors of some of the reachable instructions.
2016-08-22T05:40:54Z beach: But not reachable from the ENTER instruction?
2016-08-22T05:41:04Z Bike: right.
2016-08-22T05:41:10Z beach: Yes, I have a function for that.
2016-08-22T05:41:14Z beach: Hold on...
2016-08-22T05:42:49Z beach: cleavir-ir:set-predecessors
2016-08-22T05:43:10Z Bike: oh. damn.
2016-08-22T05:43:31Z beach: What?
2016-08-22T05:43:46Z Bike: i looked through cleavir-ir and didn't see it, that's all.
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2016-08-22T05:44:00Z beach: OK.
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2016-08-22T05:47:39Z Bike: i came up with a kind of generalized version of cleavir-ir:delete-instruction, without knowing delete-instruction existed. don't want to duplicate work, you know
2016-08-22T05:48:17Z beach: In what way is it more general?
2016-08-22T05:48:53Z Bike: works on instructions with multiple successors. you pass the successor you don't want deleted as an argument.
2016-08-22T05:49:04Z Bike: er, that you don't want disconnected.
2016-08-22T05:49:10Z beach: Yes, I understand.
2016-08-22T05:49:30Z beach: How was it done before?
2016-08-22T05:49:42Z Bike: how was what done before?
2016-08-22T05:49:54Z beach: Deleting an instruction with more than one successor.
2016-08-22T05:49:57Z beach: Replace with NOP and then delete?
2016-08-22T05:50:15Z Bike: Um, I don't know. If you have code that does that I don't know where it is.
2016-08-22T05:50:26Z beach: Right, maybe I don't have any.
2016-08-22T05:56:31Z beach: Bike: What is the source code of your example?
2016-08-22T05:56:50Z Bike: (lambda (x) (declare (cons x)) (cons (car x) (cdr x)))
2016-08-22T05:57:14Z beach: Nice!
2016-08-22T05:58:40Z Bike: the THEs are inserted by generate-ast from the declaration, of course. the dumber THEs are due to the ftype declarations on car and cdr. there shouldn't really be any THE Ts, but it doesn't have any impact so i'm putting fixing that off
2016-08-22T05:59:06Z beach: OK.
2016-08-22T05:59:39Z beach: Did you inline CAR and CDR that you defined yourself?
2016-08-22T06:01:10Z Bike: yeah. it's just the expansion you have in the docs.
2016-08-22T06:01:26Z beach: And how did you handle the environment?
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2016-08-22T06:01:34Z beach: Did you create a SICL first-class global environment?
2016-08-22T06:01:59Z Bike: i have a bunch of machinery to use sbcl lexenvs. (which is why i was worried about weird values types, most functions in sbcl have a return type with &optional)
2016-08-22T06:02:14Z beach: Very nice!
2016-08-22T06:03:14Z beach: I have been thinking about setting up the environment machinery so that Cleavir can be used as a compiler for SBCL.
2016-08-22T06:03:29Z beach: But I never got around to it.
2016-08-22T06:03:45Z Bike: i have unfortunately been running into the macroexpand problem. i can't really compile code with setf in it, for one
2016-08-22T06:04:38Z beach: I am guessing that you didn't set things up completely.
2016-08-22T06:04:45Z beach: It is a bit complicated to do.
2016-08-22T06:05:10Z beach: But it would be worth doing it properly at some point.
2016-08-22T06:05:31Z Bike: i have a bunch of methods on sb-c::lexenv. what more do you do? hopefully you don't mean defining my own setf
2016-08-22T06:05:53Z Bike: sb-kernel:lexenv, rather. good ol skullduggery
2016-08-22T06:06:06Z beach: I wrote some stuff about it.  Let me dig it up for you...
2016-08-22T06:06:43Z Bike: oh, or i guess i could set *macroexpand-hook*, if there's not a type declaration in macroexpand
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2016-08-22T06:10:36Z beach: I remember writing a lot of stuff about how to configure the Cleavir environment code for a particular implementation.  But I can't find it now.
2016-08-22T06:10:50Z beach: It is not trivial and there are two techniques possible.
2016-08-22T06:11:06Z beach: The reason it is not trivial is because of how Common Lisp itself is defined.
2016-08-22T06:11:25Z Bike: sure. environments are all mysterious, for one
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2016-08-22T06:11:53Z beach: As long as only the global environment is needed, it is not that bad.
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2016-08-22T06:12:13Z beach: The question is what happens with lexical environments.
2016-08-22T06:12:34Z beach: One can either use those of the host, or the default ones provided by cleavir.
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2016-08-22T06:13:11Z Bike: yeah, i have accessors for sbcl lexical environments but the compiler makes cleavir's.
2016-08-22T06:13:20Z beach: Right.
2016-08-22T06:13:46Z beach: But you can't pass a Cleavir environment to the host macroexpand.
2016-08-22T06:14:00Z beach: Or to get-setf-expander.
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2016-08-22T06:14:53Z beach: I sorted all this out for drmeister, because he is using it for Clasp.
2016-08-22T06:15:09Z Bike: does he not just use cleavir's?
2016-08-22T06:17:42Z beach: Bike: Let me spend some time today (UTC+2) digging up the documentation and get back to you about setting things up for SBCL.  That could be a valuable thing to do.
2016-08-22T06:18:25Z beach: I don't remember.
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2016-08-22T06:18:50Z beach: But it is not that easy because of macroexpansion in lexical environments.
2016-08-22T06:18:56Z Bike: ok, sure. i mean, probably helpful later but i can do ok for now, don't worry about it too much.
2016-08-22T06:19:10Z beach: OK.
2016-08-22T06:19:39Z beach: I just think it would be valuable to have a complete environment setup for SBCL so that one can test things more easily.
2016-08-22T06:20:08Z Bike: yeah, probably. my inline expansions thing is pretty hacky
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2016-08-22T06:25:58Z beach: The other possibility is for me to tell you how to set up a SICL first-class global environment.
2016-08-22T06:26:45Z beach: I went through that with jackdaniel so I know that it is not very well documented at the moment.  I could work on documenting it.
2016-08-22T06:27:43Z beach: Anyway, this is very exciting stuff!
2016-08-22T06:28:43Z Bike: i'll be more excited when it's stable enough to actually be incorporated :)
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2016-08-22T06:34:41Z beach: Bike: I should get to work.  Do you have any questions before I go?
2016-08-22T06:35:06Z Bike: don't think so. see you.
2016-08-22T06:35:14Z beach: Yes, take care.
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2016-08-22T06:48:28Z pillton: Inferior-shell makes life so much better.
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2016-08-22T07:51:57Z lexicall: hi, i'm compiling a lisp file using slime-compile-file. there are some macros defined in it and those macros require some external functions that are, also defined in the same file. but when i launched slime-compile-file the slime complains "undefined function XXX". it's weird that i already have that function XXX defined in the same file. so how can i fix this?
2016-08-22T07:52:51Z lexicall: the compilation passed if i load that file in advance.
2016-08-22T07:53:14Z Bike: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (defun needed-function ...)), and put them before any time the macros need to be expanded
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2016-08-22T07:54:00Z lexicall: Bike: thanks and generally in what time should i use this expression?
2016-08-22T07:54:08Z Bike: "in what time"?
2016-08-22T07:54:20Z lexicall: I mean when should i use that
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2016-08-22T07:54:43Z Bike: well, what you need to understand is the phases of processing a file
2016-08-22T07:55:07Z Bike: the compiler needs to evaluate defmacro forms, because macros are expanded at compile time
2016-08-22T07:55:15Z lexicall: macros are compiled before functions?
2016-08-22T07:55:41Z Bike: basically yes
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2016-08-22T07:56:04Z Bike: the compiler doesn't need to evaluate defun forms, since most functions don't need to be called by the compiler
2016-08-22T07:56:27Z lexicall: ok i got that point.
2016-08-22T07:56:29Z Bike: if a function does need to be called by the compiler, most often because it's used in a macroexpander but not always, you need to tell it to evaluate the defun form with eval-when. make sense?
2016-08-22T07:56:40Z lexicall: sure :)
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2016-08-22T11:41:24Z akkad: (defvar class "flow") (find-class class) ;; what is the right way to conver class to a symbol find-class can use?
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2016-08-22T11:45:51Z jdz: akkad: class names are symbols.
2016-08-22T11:46:17Z akkad: right. this is the problem I'm trying to solve. string var -> symbol
2016-08-22T11:46:23Z knobo: akkad: (intern (string-upcase class))
2016-08-22T11:46:32Z akkad: hmm upcase.
2016-08-22T11:47:04Z knobo: akkad: probably, yes. Deppends on what you want to do.
2016-08-22T11:47:09Z akkad: that did it
2016-08-22T11:47:50Z akkad: knobo: thanks
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2016-08-22T12:14:37Z akkad: (somefunction 'someClass 'someField "53") (defun mywrapper (class field value) (somefunction (find-class (intern (string-upcase class))) (intern (string-upcase class)) value))
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2016-08-22T13:11:58Z milanj: hi
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2016-08-22T13:12:26Z milanj: s there a easy way to find dependency tree with ql (or maybe asdf)
2016-08-22T13:12:26Z milanj: how can i found out dependency tree with quicklisp (or maybe asdf)
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2016-08-22T13:12:42Z milanj: want to know how i'm getting specific library loaded
2016-08-22T13:13:10Z Xach: milanj: if it is in quicklisp, (ql-dist:dependency-tree system-name)
2016-08-22T13:13:19Z Xach: milanj: e.g. (ql-dist:dependency-tree "vecto")
2016-08-22T13:13:51Z milanj: cool, I can do that on every system in my local project
2016-08-22T13:13:55Z milanj: thanks Xach
2016-08-22T13:16:27Z Xach: milanj: it doesn't work on local projects - only the parts that come from quicklisp
2016-08-22T13:16:35Z Xach: milanj: it doesn't introspect the system files, it uses precompiled info
2016-08-22T13:16:44Z milanj: I meant, do it on every project that my local project depends on
2016-08-22T13:16:52Z Xach: ah ok
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2016-08-22T13:23:53Z Xach: jackdaniel: !!!
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2016-08-22T13:39:07Z Xach: jackdaniel: it looks like a few mcclim apps are broken by recent mcclim changes :(
2016-08-22T13:39:25Z Xach: jackdaniel: beirc and ernestine specifically
2016-08-22T13:39:54Z warweasle: Xach: Is mcclim work learning? Would it add anything to SDL2?
2016-08-22T13:40:23Z Xach: warweasle: i am a mcclim pessimist
2016-08-22T13:40:47Z varjag: Xach: bumpty on sharplispers/cl-jpeg
2016-08-22T13:41:02Z Xach: varjag: not sure what that means?
2016-08-22T13:41:16Z varjag: new pull request
2016-08-22T13:41:25Z Xach: varjag: do you have commit access?
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2016-08-22T13:41:37Z varjag: no
2016-08-22T13:41:46Z Xach: hmm, ok, i will try to give you commit access
2016-08-22T13:42:02Z varjag: cool
2016-08-22T13:42:39Z Xach: varjag: ok, i have tried to send an invitation to have write access
2016-08-22T13:42:44Z Xach: varjag: if there are problems, please let me know
2016-08-22T13:43:18Z varjag: it worked, thanks
2016-08-22T13:44:16Z warweasle: Xach: Ok. I'm glad I'm not the only skeptic.
2016-08-22T13:44:28Z warweasle would use gtk or something similar.
2016-08-22T13:47:37Z ferada: which comes with the fun of going through c wrappers and back, it's no panacea either
2016-08-22T13:49:27Z varjag: i liked using mcclim own grapher for exploring my datasets
2016-08-22T13:49:44Z varjag: was fairly easy to match node presentation to what i wanted
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2016-08-22T13:50:23Z varjag: steep learning curve though overall
2016-08-22T13:51:22Z warweasle: ferada: Don't you still need to call through Win32 or Xlib or something anyway?
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2016-08-22T13:53:12Z ferada: you can just talk the x procotol through a socket
2016-08-22T13:53:25Z ferada: at least that way your image can't be so easily hosed
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2016-08-22T13:54:08Z ferada: in contrast to gtk/... bindings i mean
2016-08-22T13:54:30Z warweasle: ferada: That makes sense. Windows can't do that can it?
2016-08-22T13:54:54Z ferada: there are x servers for windows
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2016-08-22T13:56:21Z warweasle: ferada: I've had good luck using SDL from a different thread.
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2016-08-22T13:58:48Z ferada: sure, now you just have to add a ui toolkit on top ... assuming you need all that functionality in the first place
2016-08-22T13:58:49Z warweasle: ferada: Then again, I have been accused of that there insanity.
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2016-08-22T13:59:59Z warweasle: ferada: I was thinking using gtk from another thread might be a good compromise. Although I really wish I could split a lisp process somehow. Not just lightweight threads.
2016-08-22T14:00:49Z ferada: warweasle: the issue isn't threads or not, it's interfacing with the ref counting system, signals, marshalling, type system via glib, ...
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2016-08-22T14:02:46Z ferada: i'm more hopeful about mcclim because of that mostly
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2016-08-22T14:06:19Z warweasle: ferada: I'm not against it, but I don't have time to learn everything and I need pros and cons.
2016-08-22T14:06:45Z warweasle: ferada: But I'm presently doing a rather large project so it would be a while, if ever.
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2016-08-22T14:09:29Z warweasle *tries* to be open minded...although clinch is the greatest thing since the thermos. 
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2016-08-22T14:23:47Z jackdaniel: Xach: you mean today's changes?
2016-08-22T14:24:01Z Xach: jackdaniel: I don't know the timeframe of the brakage.
2016-08-22T14:24:06Z Xach: jackdaniel: it has to do with missing clim-tab-layout package
2016-08-22T14:24:17Z jackdaniel: Xach: OK, I'm on it
2016-08-22T14:24:18Z jackdaniel: thanks
2016-08-22T14:24:30Z warweasle: Xach: Are you doing an update today?
2016-08-22T14:25:10Z Xach: warweasle: Possibly
2016-08-22T14:25:57Z warweasle: Xach: I'll check in my changes. Also, I'd like to switch clinch back to the master branch. Should I add an issue?
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2016-08-22T14:26:09Z Xach: warweasle: if you don't make an issue i will likely forget
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2016-08-22T14:26:25Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2016-08-22T14:26:34Z warweasle: beach: Hi
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2016-08-22T14:29:35Z warweasle: Xach: Ok
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2016-08-22T14:29:40Z beach: warweasle: Whether or not CLIM is worth learning depends on your objectives.  An important objective of mine is to use native Common Lisp code as much as possible.  For reasons of ease of debugging and safety, but also as a matter of principle.
2016-08-22T14:30:18Z warweasle: beach: Ok. That's the problem. I have not principles. ;)
2016-08-22T14:30:45Z jackdaniel: Xach: could you pull now? I believe it's fixed
2016-08-22T14:31:18Z warweasle: beach: I'm not even above using mangled symbols for calling C++.
2016-08-22T14:31:28Z beach: warweasle: I understand.
2016-08-22T14:31:52Z beach: warweasle: Your lack of principles do not exclude your using CLIM of course.
2016-08-22T14:31:59Z beach: does
2016-08-22T14:33:20Z warweasle: beach: That reminds me of a story about a company who wouldn't use the open source license which had "...do on evil..." in it. Which is impossible to define legally. But the joke was, "We reserve the right to be evil."
2016-08-22T14:34:02Z beach: Good one!
2016-08-22T14:34:53Z beach: warweasle: As a matter of fact, the FSF explicitly excludes such clauses in order to consider a license as acceptable.
2016-08-22T14:35:10Z beach: Different topic:  When there are a bunch of transformations to intermediate code in a compiler, some transformations depend on other having already been done, and some transformations will destroy what some others did so that they need to be applied again.
2016-08-22T14:35:11Z beach: This problem looks like what a build system needs to solve, but with a twist.  Any ideas how to express such issues?
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2016-08-22T14:36:16Z warweasle: beach: A topological sort?
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2016-08-22T14:37:14Z beach: warweasle: Some transformations need to be applied more than once in a particular order.  Let me think about whether topological sort can be applied in that case.
2016-08-22T14:37:56Z warweasle: beach: If not, you can use some logic programming, like gambol.
2016-08-22T14:38:01Z warweasle: Although I find that...er...difficult.
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2016-08-22T14:38:48Z beach: I'll think about it some more and investigate the suggestions.  Thanks.
2016-08-22T14:40:18Z jackdaniel: iirc nanopass compiler framework defines optimizations as a tree with declarations of direct dependencies (i.e :depends-on '(t1 t2 t3))
2016-08-22T14:41:09Z akkad: ok
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2016-08-22T14:42:37Z beach: jackdaniel: Sure.  I was more wondering what to do with such a dependency graph.
2016-08-22T14:43:30Z beach: One possibility is to compute a pre-defined "program" from it.  The other possibility is record actions as they happen with a time stamp.
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2016-08-22T14:55:23Z beach: Furthermore, there also needs to information about what operations need to be done over again when some other operation is performed.
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2016-08-22T15:04:30Z akkad: so I have a function that takes (retrieve-from-index 'someClass 'someField "value") and (defun mywrapper(class field value) (retrieve-from-index (find-symbol (intern (string-upcase class))) field value)). I can't seem to get the dereferenced 'field' to a symbol
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2016-08-22T15:09:25Z Grue`: what is find-symbol?
2016-08-22T15:09:44Z |3b|: akkad: you probably want to specify a package to INTERN
2016-08-22T15:09:59Z |3b|: or FIND-SSYMBOL, which you should be using directly without INTERN
2016-08-22T15:10:12Z |3b|: clhs find-symbol
2016-08-22T15:10:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_s.htm
2016-08-22T15:10:14Z akkad: for the second item? field?
2016-08-22T15:10:17Z akkad: or for class?
2016-08-22T15:10:35Z |3b|: for everything really
2016-08-22T15:10:41Z TMA: akkad: both the class and the slot (aka. field) is named by a symbol
2016-08-22T15:10:43Z akkad: k.
2016-08-22T15:11:08Z |3b|: seems a bit risk to rely on the value of *PACKAGE* at runtime, especially when you don't need to
2016-08-22T15:11:35Z Grue`: ouch, didn't realize it was a built-in. what a weird function
2016-08-22T15:11:47Z |3b|: (you can bind *PACKAGE* yourself instead of specifying the package in the call, but without more context hard to say if that would be better)
2016-08-22T15:12:37Z |3b|: Grue`: not really, when you consider symbols are runtime objects in CL, not just a part of the parse tree fed to an AOT compiler then discarded
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2016-08-22T15:18:04Z beach: The option of computing a "program" from the dependency graph has the advantage that the resulting program can be cached.
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2016-08-22T15:21:54Z ggole_: The optimal compiler pass order can't be computed because there isn't one - passes are interdependent.
2016-08-22T15:22:37Z ggole_: There are two reasonable solutions: iterate until fixed point (very common) or fuse multiple passes into an optimistic single pass of some kind (eg, SCCP)
2016-08-22T15:23:18Z ggole_: Doing a few iterations and calling it done even if you aren't really sure is probably also fine in practice
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2016-08-22T15:29:55Z akkad: so the best way to convert a string to a symbol of the slot name of a class is find-symbol?
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2016-08-22T15:31:15Z Bike: yes.
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2016-08-22T15:33:27Z beach: ggole_: I wasn't talking about "optimal".  Just "correct".  Client code would have to determine what passes to execute in which order.  The code I was discussing would just take care of doing required operations (smaller than "passes") so that the thing doesn't fail.
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2016-08-22T15:34:09Z akkad: Bike: thanks
2016-08-22T15:34:11Z beach: Anyway, I need to go.  Sorry.
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2016-08-22T15:38:54Z kresbak: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2016-08-22T17:27:59Z easye: Hello community!  I'm looking to transcribe the information from a Common Lisp REST server API into a Swagger contract <http://swagger.io/getting-started/>.
2016-08-22T17:29:31Z easye: Swagger contracts can be compiled from YAML, so if I can somehow grovel my API (currently implemented in RESTAS on top of Huchentoot) into such a file, it would be a good first start.
2016-08-22T17:30:26Z easye: As far as I know, there isn't a Common Lisp Swagger transformation tool, so my first concrete question would be if anyone can point me to an example of code towards this tool.
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2016-08-22T17:33:16Z easye: The second question would be a request for a pointer to a "Java Annotations" like package for Common Lisp that I could re-purpose to a compiler into the neeed YAML format.  Rather than Java-style annotations, I suppose one could take something that grovels CL docstrings with an easy API for adding additional tags.
2016-08-22T17:36:25Z easye: (I'm purposely not considering trying to introspect the actual code that implements the API, as I don't think that question is well defined enough.  I suppose if I were to constrain my implementation to be purely functional--i.e. the implementation has no side-effects--one could theoretically code such a beast.  But this is meant to be a practical Common Lisp question...)
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2016-08-22T17:43:46Z mordocai: easye: To be fair, you can introspect code that has side effects as long as you read it instead of evaling it. In any case, i'm pretty new myself so I don't have any advice. Hopefully someone will come along with some.
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2016-08-22T17:49:45Z easye: mordocai: Yeah, I guess you are right.  Mainly I am constrained by a lack a form declaring the parameters to a given RESTAS/Hunchentoot call.  It would actually help normalize my code to wrap a given Huchentoot handler in a WITH-PARARMETERS form that would describe how to parse the various query strings, fragment identifiers into usable variables in the first place.  A side effect of such a declaration would be an easily coded
2016-08-22T17:49:45Z easye: description of all the input parameters to a given REST call. And that would be 90% of the code anyways.
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2016-08-22T17:50:33Z easye: Creating the WITH-PARAMETERS mechanism for RESTAS is actually a reasonable strategy to start with.  Thanks!
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2016-08-22T18:02:32Z easye: I think I will call such a system "Stagger"...
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2016-08-22T18:09:14Z shka: hi all!
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2016-08-22T18:09:42Z shka: quick question
2016-08-22T18:10:16Z shka: or actually let my try this one
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2016-08-22T18:21:29Z phoe: that was a very quick question
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2016-08-22T18:23:04Z shka: phoe: :D
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2016-08-22T18:32:34Z mordocai: easye: This is the only thing I found with a google search btw https://github.com/mmontone/cl-rest-server/blob/master/src/swagger.lisp
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2016-08-22T18:45:29Z easye: mordocai: That's actually much closer to anything I found.  Thanks!
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2016-08-22T19:17:10Z Cthulhux: is lispworks worth the money when you're developing freeware?
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2016-08-22T19:17:44Z TruePika: meh, I can't get quicklisp installed under clisp, somehow
2016-08-22T19:17:52Z Xach: TruePika: what happens when you try?
2016-08-22T19:17:54Z TruePika: DEFPACKAGE QL-CLISP: There is no symbol EXT::RENAME-DIRECTORY .
2016-08-22T19:18:01Z Xach: TruePika: what version of clisp?
2016-08-22T19:18:19Z Xach: TruePika: it will say at startup, or via (lisp-implementation-version)
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2016-08-22T19:18:38Z TruePika: "2.41 (2006-10-13) (built on tree.slackware.lan [127.0.0.1])"
2016-08-22T19:18:50Z TruePika: ...okay, it _might_ be old
2016-08-22T19:19:01Z TruePika: >_>
2016-08-22T19:19:17Z Xach: yes, that is too old, sorry.
2016-08-22T19:19:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: easye: depending on how big your codebase is, you might consider writing your own macro that automatically stores the information needed to generate the yaml file
2016-08-22T19:19:31Z Xach: 10 years is not long in lisp years but in this case it is still too old
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2016-08-22T19:19:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: For example, you could expand to something like (progn (define-my-route ...) (swagger-api:save-route .....)
2016-08-22T19:20:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: (you probably will need some gensyms in there or something
2016-08-22T19:20:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, maybe a call to eval-when
2016-08-22T19:22:48Z TruePika: I'm also going to need to somehow get a cronjob to run a script, where the script uses quicklisp
2016-08-22T19:23:05Z TruePika is not very familiar with cron
2016-08-22T19:23:11Z Xach: TruePika: When I do that, I build an executable with buildapp. But I also don't use clisp. I use sbcl for that.
2016-08-22T19:23:43Z raydeejay: I was going to say save an image, but yeah, probably better to just package an exe out of it :)
2016-08-22T19:23:47Z TruePika: yeah, I tend to run SBCL, but I only run CLisp on this particular machine
2016-08-22T19:24:37Z phoe: TruePika: why?
2016-08-22T19:25:53Z TruePika: phoe: because SBCL feels too heavy for the system IMO (running a PIII at 800MHz)
2016-08-22T19:26:18Z TruePika: also I don't feel like compiling SBCL right now, I've done it far enough times already <_<
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2016-08-22T19:28:12Z TruePika: and buildapp doesn't support clisp
2016-08-22T19:28:15Z TruePika: meh, sbcl it is
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2016-08-22T19:32:41Z TruePika: the last time I tried compiling SBCL via CLisp, I ran out of memory
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2016-08-22T19:33:01Z TruePika: granted, that was on a Wii without a swapfile, but still...
2016-08-22T19:34:15Z TruePika: meh, maybe I should have used `nice` for this <_<
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2016-08-22T20:48:13Z rumbler31: http://paste.lisp.org/display/323957
2016-08-22T20:48:48Z rumbler31: assuming header-and-containers is a list of objects, and process container is a thin wrapper around funcall method object
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2016-08-22T20:49:46Z rumbler31: I return the car of the original list, and the created alist.  is there any way that i'm somehow "leaking" the cdr of the origin list such that it is unable to be collected?
2016-08-22T20:50:18Z rumbler31: I call this function in a loop with takes a list of files, and for each file creates a list of objects from it, which get passed to this function
2016-08-22T20:50:40Z rumbler31: for some reason, as I process lots of files, my heap grows to become several gigabytes
2016-08-22T20:51:53Z rumbler31: ccl:heap-utilization shows a breakdown of heap contents by category, and when the heap is this large, most of it is of type cons, with nothing more specific.  I dont know how I'm creating so much garbage that can't be collected
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2016-08-22T22:52:42Z Bike: rumbler31: that doesn't seem like it would leak if process-container doesn't, but you're also making a new cons for every push newval.
2016-08-22T22:53:45Z rumbler31: I'm making a new alist from the names of the methods passed in,
2016-08-22T22:54:30Z TruePika: I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think SBCL is compiling
2016-08-22T22:54:50Z Bike: it is kind of hard to get sbcl to not compile, or did you mean building sbcl
2016-08-22T22:54:59Z TruePika: building
2016-08-22T22:55:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: rumbler31: You could also preallocate a vector that's big enough something like (make-array 10000 :fill-pointer 0) and fill it up with the read in data
2016-08-22T22:55:13Z TruePika: `lisp.run` is at over 115 minutes CPU time...
2016-08-22T22:55:33Z TruePika: let me go pastebin the terminal right now
2016-08-22T22:55:58Z TruePika: This is the terminal at the moment: http://pastebin.ca/3703517
2016-08-22T22:56:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: rumbler31: If the vector is also adjustable and you use vector-push-extend it'll even resize itself.
2016-08-22T22:56:39Z Bike: that's... a little brief, yeah. i've never built sbcl with clisp but building sbcl usually causes so much output that the instructions recommend using a fast terminal to display it
2016-08-22T22:56:59Z Bike: is this the same 2006 clisp
2016-08-22T22:57:16Z TruePika: so I need to update clisp, is what you're saying <_<
2016-08-22T22:57:34Z TruePika: meh, building Lisp so I can build Lisp with Lisp
2016-08-22T22:57:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Can ecl now build sbcl? And, would that be any faster?
2016-08-22T22:57:37Z Bike: or build it with so mething else, or just download an sbcl binary.
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2016-08-22T22:58:33Z Bike: sbcl's INSTALL file says "CLISP (only some versions: 2.44.1 is OK, 2.47 is not)"
2016-08-22T22:58:53Z TruePika: Okay, I'll pull 2.44.1 since that is known OK
2016-08-22T22:59:50Z TruePika: I use clisp sometimes (mainly at REPL), so might as well update it to something...not as broken
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2016-08-22T23:00:23Z Bike: good plan
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2016-08-22T23:00:56Z rumbler31: fiddlerwoaroof:  I'm not sure what is going on, so I"m not sure how that would help.  I open a stream from the input file then make the objects.  I expect that whenever I am done with the objects they will go away and expect that if I've coded it right that the GC will find that they are otherwise unreachable and reclaim them
2016-08-22T23:01:21Z TruePika: (besides, it's useful to have a version on x86 since I can't compile SBCL under PPC without running out of memory)
2016-08-22T23:01:26Z rumbler31: since the output of heap-utilization doesn't show that the objects are sticking around, rather that I have 10gb of cons, I don't know what to do
2016-08-22T23:01:55Z TruePika: rumbler31: that is a lot of cons
2016-08-22T23:02:10Z Bike: maybe you could make a weak table and see if things are still around?
2016-08-22T23:02:53Z rumbler31: right, and I don't know why it should be the case.  when I finally finish the computation, the resulting cons is about 1gb worth, the exact value depends obviously.
2016-08-22T23:03:03Z rumbler31: bike: what do you mean, log things in the weak table and
2016-08-22T23:03:16Z rumbler31: regularly, maphash?
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2016-08-22T23:03:32Z Bike: something like that. it's just a guess, i've never had to debug memory leaks.
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2016-08-22T23:10:23Z rpg: TruePika: I've always just grabbed an SBCL binary, then bootstrapped from there. I mean, it's cool that SBCL boots in lots of ways, but I'm lazy, and I just want to have SBCL, I'm not interested in the build process per se
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2016-08-22T23:10:50Z Bike: it makes sense if they actually use clisp
2016-08-22T23:11:16Z rpg: Bike:  Not if it takes more than 2.4s to get it working! ;-) Downloading SBCL isn't that painful.
2016-08-22T23:11:33Z rpg: but, of course, if the  platform isn't well supported, then my remarks mean nothing
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2016-08-22T23:22:02Z Bike: want people's opinions: if you declare the return type of a function to have some number of values, e.g. (function * integer) being one value, would you expect it to be okay for that function to return more values than are in the return type?
2016-08-22T23:22:46Z rpg: I would think it would be ok, but it would also be ok for the compiler to throw them on the floor, since it's entitled to trust what you tell it.
2016-08-22T23:23:21Z rpg: In the best of all worlds, trying to read more than one argument from a function declared in such a way should raise a compiler error.l
2016-08-22T23:25:01Z phoe: rpg: wouldn't the missing values be coerced to NIL?
2016-08-22T23:25:20Z phoe: like (VALUES) does?
2016-08-22T23:25:42Z Bike: you mean like THE does.
2016-08-22T23:25:53Z rpg: phoe:  Yes, I'm claiming that the compiler would be entitled to give back only the first value, and give NIL for the rest.
2016-08-22T23:25:53Z Bike: that's what i'm asking. whether function returns should be treated the same way.
2016-08-22T23:27:04Z rpg: But.... If you're going to do that, the compiler should notice that you are calling the function in a way that is wrong (since it has the DECLAIM in hand), so shouldn't it call you an idiot? (I mean "emit a helpful warning")?
2016-08-22T23:27:32Z Bike: i'm learning that it's kind of annoying to check
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2016-08-22T23:28:11Z Bike: and what i'm asking is whether it's legitimate to consider it wrong
2016-08-22T23:28:45Z Bike: (the integer (values 4 'fork)) is unambiguously conforming code that doesn't signal an error or anything
2016-08-22T23:33:01Z rpg: I thought you were asking about a case like (the integer (nth-value 2 (values 4 'fork)))
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2016-08-22T23:33:33Z Bike: ...well, nth-value returns NIL there
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2016-08-22T23:36:15Z Bike: clhs says that, say, if you have (ftype (function * integer) foo), then (foo whatever) is equivalent to (the integer (foo whatever)). but if that's so, foo can return however many values. which makes multiple value call essentially impossible to optimize
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