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2016-08-16T01:06:47Z Polyphony: I'm very new to emacs, and after following the guide to install slime from the MELPA repository, it doesn't tell you how to exit the package manager...
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2016-08-16T01:09:26Z Polyphony: it installed slime fine, but how do I get rid of the *Compile-Log* buffer?
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2016-08-16T01:13:13Z pillton: q
2016-08-16T01:13:16Z pillton: ?
2016-08-16T01:13:32Z pillton: Or C-x k RET
2016-08-16T01:14:16Z Polyphony: well, C-x k RET but it still had the compile-messages buffer up.  It was kind of a dumb question, I'm reading up on emacs windows now
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2016-08-16T01:19:51Z rumbler31: leaving those buffers open isn't a big deal in the long run, but they are just buffers and can be closed like any other
2016-08-16T01:25:20Z pillton: I'd read up on C-x C-b too.
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2016-08-16T02:13:36Z ahungry: I like to use M-x ibuffer for clearing old buffers
2016-08-16T02:13:44Z ahungry: good for filtering/selecting many at a time
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2016-08-16T02:26:29Z Polyphony: so this is a better question: I've set slime to run automatically, but how can I make the REPL open underneath the opened file instead of above it?
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2016-08-16T05:07:15Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-08-16T05:07:36Z Bike: good morning, beach.
2016-08-16T05:09:03Z beach: Bike: Are you looking for something in Cleavir?
2016-08-16T05:09:52Z Bike: not really. i remembered back in february i mentioned wanting to make the inlining more aggressive so i tried working on that. had a few problems figuring out where to start.
2016-08-16T05:10:21Z beach: Inlining should work already.
2016-08-16T05:10:28Z beach: It is done at the AST level.
2016-08-16T05:10:44Z Bike: for functions with all required parameters
2016-08-16T05:11:06Z Bike: that are global. also, the original context was for multiple-value-call, but that probably needs type inference which i don't think you have at that point
2016-08-16T05:11:07Z beach: Oh, right.  Now I remember.
2016-08-16T05:11:52Z Bike: i also ran into a few minor bugs in what i'm guessing are low-use systems, so i sent you a pull request. the github is the most up to date, right?
2016-08-16T05:12:09Z beach: Yes.
2016-08-16T05:12:40Z beach: Bike: Are you the one with Cyrillic characters in your name?
2016-08-16T05:12:44Z Bike: yeah.
2016-08-16T05:13:29Z beach: I just woke up.  Give me a few minutes to finish my coffee and I'll work on it.
2016-08-16T05:13:34Z Bike: of course
2016-08-16T05:13:40Z beach: This is your real name?
2016-08-16T05:13:53Z Bike: heh. no. it means nameless nobody.
2016-08-16T05:14:02Z beach: Ah.
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2016-08-16T05:17:20Z Bike: i also have a few questions about the semantics once you get that coffee, if you don't mind.
2016-08-16T05:17:31Z beach: Go right ahead.
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2016-08-16T05:20:01Z Bike: let's see, well first i was wondering why there are so many ASTs (the majority, I think) for primops, which all pretty much have normal function call semantics, and not maybe a single ast or them, or maybe a few for argument counts.
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2016-08-16T05:20:34Z beach: Well, the functions need to be written.
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2016-08-16T05:21:02Z beach: You typically would not use those AST in "normal" code.  Only in code that implements those functions, say the code for AREF.
2016-08-16T05:21:05Z Bike: the functions?
2016-08-16T05:21:16Z beach: The functions that you want to inline.
2016-08-16T05:22:02Z beach: At some point, you need to write the functions +, AREF, (SETF SBIT) etc.
2016-08-16T05:22:22Z Bike: like your definition for car with typeq.
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2016-08-16T05:22:38Z beach: Yes, CAR, RPLACA, etc.
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2016-08-16T05:24:24Z Bike: But I was wondering why they were organized as different ast classes. I modified the ast-to-source functions as well, and defining eighty methods for them doesn't seem like much fun
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2016-08-16T05:25:49Z beach: This was the way I came up with.  It may not be the best one, but I have never done this before.  I wanted to have separate AST classes so that I can have separate instruction classes so that the type inferencer will work.
2016-08-16T05:26:07Z Bike: you need separate ast classes for seprate instruction classes?
2016-08-16T05:26:16Z beach: Pretty much.
2016-08-16T05:26:25Z beach: I often start with the need for an instruction class.
2016-08-16T05:26:54Z beach: The instruction class requires an AST class that requires a primop so that it can be expressed as source code.
2016-08-16T05:27:02Z Bike: hrm.
2016-08-16T05:27:21Z Bike: well, anyway, that's basically style-y stuff.
2016-08-16T05:27:45Z beach: If you come up with a better way, let me know.
2016-08-16T05:28:11Z Bike: the actual problems i ran into were: I guess you can have lexical variables that aren't bound anywhere? And there doesn't seem to be any protocol for putting an actual inline expansion in an environment (other than specializing function-info to return an appropriate function-info, i guess)
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2016-08-16T05:29:26Z beach: There is one case where I have lexical variables that aren't bound.
2016-08-16T05:29:45Z beach: I needed that because the fixnum-add primop returns a boolean and sets a value.
2016-08-16T05:30:28Z beach: I needed for the variable that is assigned to to be initialized by the fixnum-add operation.
2016-08-16T05:30:46Z Bike: i wasn't touching those. i get it from (lambda (x) x), if i'm not mistaken.
2016-08-16T05:31:04Z Bike: (lambda (#:g1022) (progn (setq x #:g10122) (progn x)))
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2016-08-16T05:31:30Z beach: I don't remember seeing that.
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2016-08-16T05:32:47Z beach: Inlining should already work.  I think drmeister uses it.
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2016-08-16T05:33:10Z beach: So there has to be a way of storing the AST in the environment.  Maybe it is Clasp specific at the moment.  I can't remember.
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2016-08-16T05:34:24Z Bike: you can customize function-info to return function-info with them, but i was trying to let local functions be inlined, so i'd be using cleavir-env:add-something, if i'm not mistaken
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2016-08-16T05:35:19Z beach: That sounds plausible, but I don't have all that fresh in memory, so I would have to read the code and/or the documentation to give you more precise advice.
2016-08-16T05:35:33Z Bike: ok.
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2016-08-16T05:36:07Z beach: If you want, I can work on that and get back to you.
2016-08-16T05:36:14Z Bike: there's an add-inline, but it just puts in the declaration, which isn't enough to actually inline, of course
2016-08-16T05:36:38Z beach: Right.  It is possible that the code for doing that is not in place yet.
2016-08-16T05:37:31Z beach: As I recall, the idea was to always store the AST in the environment.
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2016-08-16T05:44:06Z beach fears that he is not being helpful. :(
2016-08-16T05:45:19Z Bike: nah. i mean, the machinery's all there, i think it's just a little gap in the environment protocol.
2016-08-16T05:45:35Z beach: You are probably right.
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2016-08-16T05:46:31Z beach: I am sorry that my memory is so bad.  It always has been.  That is why I try to write code and documentation that I can read and understand myself.
2016-08-16T05:46:32Z Bike: calls can definitely be inlined, i ran through it.
2016-08-16T05:46:46Z Bike: you also have like a million lines of code, here
2016-08-16T05:47:03Z beach: Yeah, and some of them are obsolete.
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2016-08-16T06:03:02Z Bike: ok, i hooked up function-info to sbcl's inline expansions, which makes fooling around easier until they swap sb-int around again
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2016-08-16T07:13:41Z Bike: i see how entries work. the logical thing to do is to make sure defining-function-info has the ast in it, so add-local-function should optionally take the ast.
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2016-08-16T07:15:08Z Bike: some of this seems mixed up, though. (inline (function-info (add-inline whatever 'foo 'notinline) 'foo)) is an environment instead of 'notinline.
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2016-08-16T08:16:00Z Bike: beach: i think how it should be is that add-local-foo should take &key initargs (except for name, probably) that are used for the make-instance in defining-foo-info, instead of just a name and maybe identity. I'm going to sleep, think on it or don't :)
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2016-08-16T12:17:38Z igrishaev: HI folks! I'm the first time here. Is it a proper channel to ask about a remote job?
2016-08-16T12:18:52Z jackdaniel: if you want to hire someone, or look for something, there is https://lispjobs.wordpress.com/, also you may write to pro@common-lisp.net if you want to hire somebody
2016-08-16T12:19:49Z jackdaniel: this channel is rather technical discussion
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2016-08-16T12:20:43Z jackdaniel: s/rather/rather for/
2016-08-16T12:20:56Z igrishaev: well, I wanne be hired. thanks for the link anyway, I've checked it already.
2016-08-16T12:21:07Z igrishaev: well, I wanna be hired. thanks for the link anyway, I've checked it already.
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2016-08-16T13:57:08Z warweasle: Hello
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2016-08-16T13:57:48Z loke: hello
2016-08-16T13:57:48Z minion: loke, memo from jasom: here's an article by MS talking about how much a PITA it was to figure out if a page was dirty from userspace on linux https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/maoni/2016/07/02/working-through-things-on-other-oss/
2016-08-16T13:59:50Z loke: jasom: Hello, around?
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2016-08-16T14:06:59Z oleo: hello
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2016-08-16T14:36:15Z dto: apologies to Fare if i mispronounce his name in the video when mentioning an essay of his
2016-08-16T14:36:18Z dto: :)
2016-08-16T14:36:24Z dto: i think i got it right tho
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2016-08-16T14:37:47Z beach: Đặng-Vũ Bân?  Your Vietnamese must be good.
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2016-08-16T14:39:39Z jackdaniel: dto: my name is spelled different a bit though (https://youtu.be/GBvfiCdk-jc?t=64 ;-)
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2016-08-16T14:41:16Z dto: hjahahaha
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2016-08-16T14:41:52Z dto: beach: well i only said the french parts.
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2016-08-16T14:42:24Z dto: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wkrg-m1Vq78
2016-08-16T14:42:30Z dto: oops thats the wrong link.
2016-08-16T14:42:42Z dto: this is the one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VyTd_Wf0qA
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2016-08-16T14:45:38Z beach: Bike: Hello.  I will definitely look into it.
2016-08-16T14:45:43Z beach: Thanks!
2016-08-16T14:45:56Z Bike: yo. i was thinking too fast, you probably need a separate ast entry layer for labels anyway
2016-08-16T14:46:11Z beach: Maybe so.
2016-08-16T14:46:38Z beach: Right now I am working on the sequence functions, and I am on a roll.  Maybe tomorrow (UTC+2) I will check it out.
2016-08-16T14:46:56Z Bike: alright.
2016-08-16T14:46:57Z dto: part of my talk was about library consolidation so i talked about the ideas in his essay and tried to analyze them from the perspective of our particular corner of the lisp-o-verse
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2016-08-16T14:49:58Z dto: unfortunately it's a bit rambly, i'm not good at public speaking. also, some distractions in the form of various noises due to the choice of venue
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2016-08-16T14:56:13Z mordocai: Common Lisp Recipes ebook on sale again http://www.apress.com/promo-campaigns/back2school/9781484211779?gtmf=c
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2016-08-16T15:45:25Z Bike: beach, is there a policy for compiler warnings?
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2016-08-16T15:58:57Z beach: Bike: I haven't decided on the details of that yet.
2016-08-16T15:59:05Z Bike: ok.
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2016-08-16T16:34:55Z jasom: loke: good morning
2016-08-16T16:35:23Z loke: hello jasom
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2016-08-16T16:37:59Z atgreen: does anybody in the office today have a micro-USB cable I could borrow today?  It won't leave the office.
2016-08-16T16:38:15Z loke: atgreen: I'm not sure you are in the right channel.
2016-08-16T16:38:15Z jackdaniel: sure
2016-08-16T16:38:20Z atgreen: haha
2016-08-16T16:38:25Z atgreen: I need more coffee
2016-08-16T16:38:29Z jackdaniel lends atgreen his cable
2016-08-16T16:38:31Z atgreen: btw, I love lisp
2016-08-16T16:38:33Z atgreen: :)
2016-08-16T16:38:36Z jackdaniel: maybe a bit sleep? ;)
2016-08-16T16:38:57Z loke: atgreen: We also used to use IRC internally, before we wrote our own web-based chat. In Lisp of course.
2016-08-16T16:39:11Z jackdaniel: potato ? :-)
2016-08-16T16:39:15Z loke: Yes
2016-08-16T16:39:17Z loke: :-)
2016-08-16T16:39:37Z loke: Point is, when we were using IRC, I also had the internal chat and #emacs right next to eachother :-)
2016-08-16T16:39:40Z loke: And #lisp of course
2016-08-16T16:40:07Z atgreen: btw, I found a cable, in case anybody was worried :)
2016-08-16T16:40:18Z loke: atgreen: Awesome.
2016-08-16T16:40:20Z knobo: Looks like I have to
2016-08-16T16:40:24Z loke: atgreen: What colour is it?
2016-08-16T16:40:42Z atgreen: black
2016-08-16T16:41:09Z loke: atgreen: All right. Nothing too fancy then.
2016-08-16T16:41:24Z loke likes to be a little wild and crazy. I sometime suse... GREY CABLES!
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2016-08-16T16:42:36Z jasom: I like the nylon braided Anker cables.
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2016-08-16T16:43:47Z loke: OK, time for me to go to sleep.
2016-08-16T16:43:50Z loke: See you around peoples
2016-08-16T16:43:59Z jasom: ciao
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2016-08-16T16:46:15Z knobo: loke: are you there?
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2016-08-16T16:52:55Z shrdlu68: Hi guys :)
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2016-08-16T17:05:29Z Xach: hi
2016-08-16T17:05:49Z warweasle: Xach: Hello
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2016-08-16T17:14:51Z Xach is pleased that l1sp.org is renewed through 2021
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2016-08-16T17:19:19Z slyrus: any cl-closure-template users around?
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2016-08-16T17:19:35Z warweasle: Xach: I'd like to switch clinch back to using master for quicklisp.
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2016-08-16T17:26:40Z shka_: slyrus: what is it?
2016-08-16T17:26:59Z shka_: what people around use for generating html documentation?
2016-08-16T17:27:02Z shka_: tried codex
2016-08-16T17:27:15Z shka_: didn't managed to run it
2016-08-16T17:27:21Z slyrus: no, it's an html page generation templating language thingy
2016-08-16T17:27:53Z shka_: slyrus: sorry, i was asking question not dependent on youars
2016-08-16T17:27:58Z shka_: *yours
2016-08-16T17:28:13Z shka_: back to codex though
2016-08-16T17:28:20Z warweasle: Quickdocs?
2016-08-16T17:28:24Z raydeejay: I played a bit with Manifest
2016-08-16T17:28:33Z shka_: generated docs are very pretty
2016-08-16T17:28:39Z shka_: but sadly i can't run it
2016-08-16T17:28:56Z raydeejay: https://github.com/gigamonkey/manifest or Quicklisp
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2016-08-16T17:29:48Z shka_: warweasle: quickdocs are any good?
2016-08-16T17:29:58Z shka_: raydeejay: what's your opinion?
2016-08-16T17:30:13Z raydeejay: my opinion is that I played a bit with Manifest and that's it xD
2016-08-16T17:30:19Z raydeejay: can't compare :)
2016-08-16T17:30:26Z shka_: ok
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2016-08-16T17:31:12Z shka_: hmmm so, does quickdocs actually offer docs generation?
2016-08-16T17:31:40Z sjl: shka_: I use my own janky cl script that uses docparser to grab docstrings and dump everything into a markdown file
2016-08-16T17:32:00Z shka_: i want to avoid doing that
2016-08-16T17:32:03Z sjl: which then gets rendered by a janky non-lisp-specific python package I made a while back
2016-08-16T17:32:21Z sjl: which all ends up looking like http://sjl.bitbucket.org/beast/
2016-08-16T17:32:28Z sjl: (the api reference page is the docstring bit)
2016-08-16T17:33:05Z shka_: i mean, codex looks rather good on paper
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2016-08-16T17:33:35Z shka_: better than i can glue together in reasonable ammount of time anyway!
2016-08-16T17:33:40Z sjl: api references are overrated anyway though.  they're nice to have, but if you're at the point where you want to know what a specific function does you can just read the docstring/source for it
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2016-08-16T17:33:57Z shka_: perhaps
2016-08-16T17:34:04Z shka_: but i want to publish library
2016-08-16T17:34:06Z sjl: the important part is the higher level picture of how things work together, and that thing's format doesn't really matter
2016-08-16T17:34:15Z shka_: i wont do it without unit tests and documentation
2016-08-16T17:34:22Z shka_: because… just not
2016-08-16T17:34:24Z sjl: dump it in a .txt file, render a pretty html file, whatever
2016-08-16T17:35:49Z shka_: sjl: well, codex is bit more than "let's just dump docstring" thing
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2016-08-16T17:36:24Z sjl: yeah that one looks nice, because it lets you write freeform stuff
2016-08-16T17:36:33Z shka_: it was pretty much what i would wish to run
2016-08-16T17:36:44Z shka_: but grrrr, it wont
2016-08-16T17:37:06Z sjl: but on the scale of how much things matter, "the docs exist" is like 99% of the importance and "the docs are built with a specific tool" is 1%
2016-08-16T17:37:14Z sjl: why won't it run?
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2016-08-16T17:37:45Z shka_: i don't remember
2016-08-16T17:37:51Z raydeejay: "the docs exist" is perhaps a bit vague? there are docs, and there are docs :D
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2016-08-16T17:38:26Z shka_: well, i don't write huge software, just a hashtable
2016-08-16T17:38:31Z raydeejay: sometimes a small collection of examples goes further than the actual reference documentation
2016-08-16T17:38:37Z sjl: raydeejay: hah yeah
2016-08-16T17:38:47Z shka_: and i want to have api reference along with explanation on why and how
2016-08-16T17:39:00Z warweasle: Xach: Is there a way to create a quickdocs page for checking documentation?
2016-08-16T17:39:21Z shka_: i don't want to publish software without it
2016-08-16T17:39:30Z shka_: because fuck people that actually do that
2016-08-16T17:39:39Z sjl: yeah, it's bad
2016-08-16T17:39:42Z sjl: especially in lisp land
2016-08-16T17:39:49Z Xach: warweasle: I don't know - I don't run quickdocs
2016-08-16T17:39:58Z Xach: warweasle: i think the source is there but i'm not sure how easy it is to use
2016-08-16T17:41:22Z raydeejay: shka_: the source is here https://github.com/quickdocs
2016-08-16T17:41:31Z shka_: cool, thanks
2016-08-16T17:41:37Z shka_: but you know what?
2016-08-16T17:41:50Z shka_: let me take another shoot at codex
2016-08-16T17:41:55Z raydeejay lets you
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2016-08-16T17:51:48Z warweasle: raydeejay: Hmm...
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2016-08-16T18:21:48Z flip214: I thought that if I have a :around and a "normal" method, (call-next-method) in the :around would then run the "normal" method?
2016-08-16T18:22:00Z flip214: No special method combination, just a straight defgeneric
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2016-08-16T18:22:58Z Xach: flip214: that is right.
2016-08-16T18:23:15Z flip214: hrmpf
2016-08-16T18:23:21Z flip214: thanks for confirming, anyway
2016-08-16T18:23:41Z flip214: yeah, (break) confirms that it's being called
2016-08-16T18:23:47Z flip214: now to find out what's wrong inside
2016-08-16T18:23:49Z flip214: thanks
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2016-08-16T18:27:43Z k-stz: hello lispers, looking for a system with cffi for the linux functions like ptrace(), fork(), getpid(), kill() etc
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2016-08-16T18:27:49Z shka_: great news!
2016-08-16T18:28:17Z shka_: someway, somehow i managed to run codex
2016-08-16T18:28:26Z shka_: and i have very basic html output
2016-08-16T18:28:27Z shka_: great!
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2016-08-16T18:41:51Z PuercoPop: k-stz: iolib covers a couple of those
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2016-08-16T18:42:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: k-stz: maybe osicat-posix ?
2016-08-16T18:42:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: maybe not ptrace, thoguh
2016-08-16T18:44:46Z SumoSudo: cant compile mod_lisp2.c into apache 2.4.6
2016-08-16T18:45:04Z SumoSudo: apxs -i -c mod_lisp2.c outputs error: http://pastebin.com/uj76bfeD
2016-08-16T18:45:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think people generally use hunchentoot, woo or wookie and a reverse proxy
2016-08-16T18:45:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's also a fastcgi implementation, but I've never used it
2016-08-16T18:46:12Z SumoSudo: thats a pity. I like ucw.
2016-08-16T18:46:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know much about it, but you might be able to use it with a reverse proxy and a native lisp webserver?
2016-08-16T18:47:44Z SumoSudo: did manage to serve up pages from ucw, sans static files. Apache proxy works.
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2016-08-16T18:56:43Z k-stz: PuercoPop: fiddlerwoaroof thanks for the suggestions
2016-08-16T18:59:49Z k-stz: has someone experience with making their own cffi binding for the linux libraries? would be ideal if that was straightforward
2016-08-16T19:04:28Z prole: /par
2016-08-16T19:04:28Z prole:  
2016-08-16T19:04:28Z prole:  
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2016-08-16T19:08:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: k-stz: I don't think it's too difficult, but I haven't done it myself.
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2016-08-16T19:09:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: k-stz: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Tutorial.html
2016-08-16T19:10:24Z raydeejay: SWIG does a passable job, too
2016-08-16T19:10:56Z raydeejay: at the very least, for putting a handful of things together to experiment
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2016-08-16T19:16:52Z k-stz: that tutorial looks approachable, looks like a weekend project :)
2016-08-16T19:16:55Z k-stz: thanks and bye
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2016-08-16T19:44:38Z knobo: I have a patch for redshank....
2016-08-16T19:45:01Z knobo: why bother..
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2016-08-16T19:57:04Z knobo: I just killed a too big hunk in magit-diff :(
2016-08-16T19:57:23Z knobo: Tried to figure out how to get it back.
2016-08-16T19:57:34Z knobo: It was not so dificult.
2016-08-16T19:57:40Z knobo: OT though.
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2016-08-16T20:20:31Z ben_vulpes: knobo: how'd you do it?
2016-08-16T20:20:42Z ben_vulpes: that's a thing i'd like to know how to do
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2016-08-16T20:24:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've been interested in learning about gcs
2016-08-16T20:25:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a language runtime that makes the gc easy to tweak?
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2016-08-16T20:30:10Z Bike: mps is fairly easy to understand
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2016-08-16T20:34:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: The problem I run into is that the algorithms seem easy to understand but it's really difficult to get to the point where you can start implementing the algorithm
2016-08-16T20:34:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, this is probably because I'm quite inexperienced with this side of things
2016-08-16T20:36:01Z Bike: no, well, usually it's not something you can do easily. there isn't a programming language that really lends itself to the assemblyness you need without being assembly.
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2016-08-16T21:26:14Z knobo: ben_vulpes: the buffer was still open, so I just went there and did undo :)
2016-08-16T21:28:10Z raydeejay: ah, emacs... :D
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2016-08-16T21:29:15Z ben_vulpes: knobo: clever
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2016-08-16T21:37:25Z saturniid: if you're using emacs, do you have backup save versioning turned on?
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2016-08-16T21:38:12Z saturniid: http://stackoverflow.com/a/151946/2743625
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2016-08-16T21:40:12Z varjag: i don't
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2016-08-16T21:48:43Z ben_vulpes: i do now
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