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2016-08-10T02:34:25Z pierpa: there's no complexity guarantee in the standard, BUT how confident can I be that HASH-TABLE-COUNT is O(1) in practice? what do implementations do?  is it O(1) even for weak tables?
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2016-08-10T02:35:48Z Bike: on sbcl it's a struct read
2016-08-10T02:36:48Z pierpa: ok. Even for weak hashes?
2016-08-10T02:36:59Z Bike: regardless, yes
2016-08-10T02:37:11Z Bike: looks pretty simple on ccl as well
2016-08-10T02:37:15Z pierpa: k. Thank you.
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2016-08-10T02:40:13Z pierpa: FWIW, the question arose because I was wondering if the second of these functions could be more safely assumed to be fast than the first one. https://bpaste.net/show/a969ee18d9a3
2016-08-10T02:40:47Z pierpa: (in a random implementation)
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2016-08-10T03:12:22Z loke: pierpa: The spec does not place any restrictions or guarantees on either of those functions.
2016-08-10T03:13:19Z Bike: that's what they led with
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2016-08-10T03:27:54Z pierpa: yes, but the WITH-HASH-TABLE-ITERATOR version would be unreasonable if it was not O(1). The HASH-TABLE-COUNT would not be completely crazy if in some circumstances it would not be O(1)
2016-08-10T03:28:41Z pierpa: for example, in Racket (the equivalent of) HASH-TABLE-COUNT is O(1) only for non-weak tables.
2016-08-10T03:29:53Z pierpa: so, in Racket the (equivalent of) second function would be preferable.
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2016-08-10T03:37:45Z loke: pierpa: I could imagine the case where the second version is also not O(1), although I agree with you that it's less likely.
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2016-08-10T09:28:05Z John[Lisbeth]: Is there a common lisp implementantion of latex so I can point out people should use that instead of latex?
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2016-08-10T09:29:53Z Bike: what on earth would be the point of rewriting latex
2016-08-10T09:30:11Z John[Lisbeth]: So I don't have to learn Latex and I only have to learn common lisp
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2016-08-10T09:31:22Z Bike: you would still have to learn latex to use an implementation of it
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2016-08-10T09:31:41Z John[Lisbeth]: I couldn't use some domain specific langauge that lets me make pretty pdfs in common lisp?
2016-08-10T09:31:51Z Bike: you could, but that would not be latex
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2016-08-10T09:32:01Z John[Lisbeth]: well I mean a common lisp version of it
2016-08-10T09:32:04Z John[Lisbeth]: such as latex or tex
2016-08-10T09:32:15Z Bike: you mean a common lisp typesetting system, not a common lisp latex
2016-08-10T09:32:18Z Bike: latex is a pretty specific thing
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2016-08-10T09:32:25Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't know the word for it sorry
2016-08-10T09:32:35Z John[Lisbeth]: yes a lisp typesetting system so I can format pretty characters in pdfs in common lisp
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2016-08-10T09:33:31Z Bike: i know fare uses this thing https://docs.racket-lang.org/scribble/
2016-08-10T09:33:37Z Bike: dunno about something in lisp
2016-08-10T09:33:49Z John[Lisbeth]: probably not highly sought after
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2016-08-10T09:34:00Z Bike: well, latex is really good
2016-08-10T09:34:01Z schjetne: John[Lisbeth]: try CommonDoc
2016-08-10T09:34:06Z schjetne: http://commondoc.github.io
2016-08-10T09:34:56Z John[Lisbeth]: It says it uses vertex
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2016-08-10T09:35:07Z John[Lisbeth]: is this common lisp? https://github.com/CommonDoc/vertex
2016-08-10T09:35:09Z schjetne: You don't have to use it if you don't want to
2016-08-10T09:35:15Z Bike: and then that using tex in a vertex document sucks. heh.
2016-08-10T09:35:16Z John[Lisbeth]: I am just curious about it
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2016-08-10T09:36:12Z John[Lisbeth]: oh well thanx
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2016-08-10T10:56:29Z VitoVan: Hey guys, good day.
2016-08-10T10:57:00Z VitoVan: I recently is reading <On Lisp>, I am stuck in chapter 12.4, http://ep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/paulgraham/onlisp.pdf
2016-08-10T10:57:05Z VitoVan: page 184
2016-08-10T10:58:02Z VitoVan: Which the author is trying to construct a macro _f to make things like this: (_f + x y)  the same as (incf x y)
2016-08-10T10:58:52Z VitoVan: and then have given a wrong example: (defmacro _f (op place &rest args) '(setf ,place (,op ,place ,@args)))
2016-08-10T10:59:28Z VitoVan: which I can't find anything wrong with this example, and I can't understand why "Unfortunately, we can’t define a correct f with define-modify-macro, because the operator to be applied to the generalized variable is given as an argument."
2016-08-10T10:59:41Z VitoVan: Hope anyone can help, thank you very much!
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2016-08-10T11:02:25Z VitoVan: Forgive my poor English, I hope that won't bothering you.
2016-08-10T11:03:15Z malice`: VitoVan: setf is a quasi-magical macro that replaces "setf X Y" with proper form
2016-08-10T11:03:32Z Grue``: fwiw I tried (let ((x (list 1))) (_f + (car x) 10) x) and it works
2016-08-10T11:03:45Z Grue``: there might be some complex case where it fails though
2016-08-10T11:04:46Z Grue``: something about ,place being evaluated twice
2016-08-10T11:04:47Z VitoVan: malice`: then what's the problem?
2016-08-10T11:05:37Z Grue``: for example Graham offers the example (incf (aref a (incf i))). with the naive implementation i would be incremented twice
2016-08-10T11:05:47Z Grue``: or something
2016-08-10T11:06:05Z VitoVan: Grue``: Yes, I aware the eval twice thing, but it should be *not good* instead of **wrong**
2016-08-10T11:06:33Z VitoVan: Thank you Grue``
2016-08-10T11:06:37Z jdz: in C that would be "not good", in CL it is "wrong"
2016-08-10T11:07:51Z VitoVan: Right, the double evals of incf is truly wrong.
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2016-08-10T11:14:23Z VitoVan: Thank you very much Grue``, and malice and jdz, problem solved, what a magical place~
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2016-08-10T11:19:20Z pipping: there's no place like (user-homedir-pathname)
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2016-08-10T12:02:44Z flip214: does lparallel have some sort function as well?
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2016-08-10T12:05:53Z scymtym: flip214: there is LPARALLEL:PSORT which can sort vectors in parallel (according to the documentation string)
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2016-08-10T12:10:08Z flip214: scymtym: thanks a lot, didn't see that in the documentation at https://lparallel.org/api/
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2016-08-10T12:10:38Z flip214: ah, hiding in "Cognates"
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2016-08-10T12:37:15Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
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2016-08-10T13:04:37Z Xach: Hello beach
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2016-08-10T13:54:29Z Posterdati: hi
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2016-08-10T13:56:06Z Posterdati: I've got problem to quickload antik on sbcl 1.3.8-26 for x86_64: caught error: illegal function call
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2016-08-10T13:56:44Z beach: What code is causing the problem?
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2016-08-10T13:58:45Z Posterdati: cffi-libffi
2016-08-10T13:59:11Z beach: Can you be more specific?  What form is causing the problem?
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2016-08-10T14:00:31Z Posterdati: Illegal function call
2016-08-10T14:00:51Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: beach asks for a particular code snippet which contains that illegal function call
2016-08-10T14:00:55Z Posterdati: While evaluating the form starting at line 30, column 0
2016-08-10T14:01:03Z jackdaniel: you may find it with a backtrace for instance
2016-08-10T14:01:28Z beach: Posterdati: Can you give us the form starting at line 30, column 0?
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2016-08-10T14:02:52Z Posterdati: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :execute) (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :cffi-grovel) (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :trivial-features))
2016-08-10T14:04:33Z beach: I don't see anything wrong with that code.
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2016-08-10T14:05:10Z Posterdati: *features* reports :asdf3.1
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2016-08-10T14:05:22Z beach: There is no illegal function call in that form.
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2016-08-10T14:18:02Z scymtym: antik seems to depend on gsll. over the last weeks people have reported problems with gsll caused by changes in the gsl C library that are not (yet) reflected in the gsll ffi bindings. the only suggestion i have seen is downgrading the gsl C library
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2016-08-10T14:18:41Z sampiero: hi
2016-08-10T14:18:56Z beach: Hello sampiero.
2016-08-10T14:19:16Z LiamH: antik-base can be loaded without GSLL
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2016-08-10T14:20:20Z sampiero: http://paste.lisp.org/display/322684
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2016-08-10T14:20:49Z sampiero: this is the problem trying to load :cffi-libffi
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2016-08-10T14:21:02Z sampiero: and thus :antik
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2016-08-10T14:21:58Z beach: It looks like there is a conditional form that is not recognized as such.
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2016-08-10T14:22:44Z beach: Can you paste the contents of the file asdf-compat.lisp?
2016-08-10T14:22:55Z sampiero: LiamH: I need gsll too
2016-08-10T14:23:43Z LiamH: sampiero: OK, well just keep in mind it will not load with GSL 2.x. However, I have in the repo a version that may load.
2016-08-10T14:23:59Z sampiero: :(
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2016-08-10T14:25:48Z sampiero: http://paste.lisp.org/display/322684#1
2016-08-10T14:26:45Z beach: I don't think the code in that paste corresponds to the code giving the error.
2016-08-10T14:27:29Z scymtym: beach: i think it does. it may be OS-COND again
2016-08-10T14:27:48Z sampiero: I pasted the file you told me
2016-08-10T14:28:51Z sampiero: and?
2016-08-10T14:29:02Z scymtym: assuming OS-COND to be a function would put things like ((UIOP/OS:OS-WINDOWS-P) "dll") mentioned in the error message in an evaluated position
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2016-08-10T14:29:05Z beach: I OK, I see it.
2016-08-10T14:29:24Z beach: Yes, os-cond is not recognized as a macro.
2016-08-10T14:29:39Z beach: That is what I meant by a conditional form that is not recognized as such.
2016-08-10T14:29:48Z sampiero: ok
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2016-08-10T14:29:53Z sampiero: is there a cure?
2016-08-10T14:29:59Z scymtym: sampiero: not sure, but your asdf may be too old (see http://ircbrowse.net/browse/lisp?q=os-cond).
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2016-08-10T14:30:14Z scymtym: what is your asdf version?
2016-08-10T14:30:30Z sampiero: :ASDF-PACKAGE-SYSTEM :ASDF3.1 :ASDF3 :ASDF2 :ASDF :OS-UNIX
2016-08-10T14:31:10Z scymtym: please try (asdf:component-version (asdf:find-system :asdf))
2016-08-10T14:31:43Z sampiero: "3.1.5"
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2016-08-10T14:34:29Z sampiero: ?
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2016-08-10T14:35:35Z scymtym: sorry, that macro seems to be provided by the uiop system. what does (asdf:component-version (asdf:find-system :uiop)) report?
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2016-08-10T14:37:17Z sampiero: "3.1.0.4"
2016-08-10T14:38:13Z sampiero: from the latest quicklisp installation
2016-08-10T14:38:25Z Xach: quicklisp doesn't provide asdf 3. it comes with your implementation.
2016-08-10T14:38:30Z Xach: or manually
2016-08-10T14:38:42Z sampiero: uiop too?
2016-08-10T14:38:45Z jackdaniel: yes
2016-08-10T14:39:12Z Xach: quicklisp *does* provide uiop.
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2016-08-10T14:40:02Z sampiero: is "3.1.0.4" the latest uiop?
2016-08-10T14:40:25Z Xach: No, 3.1.6 is available. Not sure if that's the newest, but it is newer.
2016-08-10T14:42:27Z jackdaniel: oh, sorry
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2016-08-10T14:43:28Z devon: g'day all
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2016-08-10T14:43:37Z sampiero: not to all
2016-08-10T14:43:44Z beach: Hello devon.
2016-08-10T14:44:48Z devon: Know of a file output stream that automatically takes care of preventing partially written files from appearing under the real file name?
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2016-08-10T14:46:43Z devon: E.g., as Emacs makes foo a placeholder link to nowhere, writes to #foo# and then renames it to the final real foo.
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2016-08-10T14:49:17Z cromachina: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_finish.htm these functions help with flushing streams
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2016-08-10T14:51:52Z scymtym: cffi-toolchain.asd seems to assume that the asdf version is identical to the uiop version
2016-08-10T14:52:31Z sampiero: scymtym: I'm trying with ecl 16.1.2
2016-08-10T14:55:05Z devon: Here I go reinventing this old wheel once again.  I should set it to music, _the Lisper's Lament_
2016-08-10T14:55:24Z sampiero: http://paste.lisp.org/display/322684#2
2016-08-10T14:55:31Z sampiero: scymtym: http://paste.lisp.org/display/322684#2
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2016-08-10T14:56:48Z sampiero: so this is not a problem from sbcl or ecl either
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2016-08-10T15:01:49Z scymtym: sampiero: no, the original seems to be that cffi-toolchain depends on a newer version of uiop without making that dependency explicit
2016-08-10T15:02:04Z sampiero: wait a minute
2016-08-10T15:03:34Z sampiero: I had an asdf inside my lisp projects directory, which is always added to the (user-homedir-pathname)
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2016-08-10T15:08:23Z sampiero: solved
2016-08-10T15:08:53Z sampiero: thanks to all of you people
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2016-08-10T15:51:46Z jack_rip_vim: is that possible to comfirm a port's type when we connect to a address?
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2016-08-10T15:52:49Z jack_rip_vim: like a port belong to http or ssh.
2016-08-10T15:53:08Z Xach: jack_rip_vim: sometimes it is easy, sometimes it is not.
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2016-08-10T15:53:26Z Xach: jack_rip_vim: it depends on the protocol. sometimes the server talks first and you can confirm expectations, somewhat. sometimes the server waits and you must try a conversation and see what happens.
2016-08-10T15:53:30Z Xach: (not lisp-specific)
2016-08-10T15:54:00Z jack_rip_vim: ok, thanks
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2016-08-10T15:54:53Z cromachina: nmap seems like the right tool for this
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2016-08-10T15:55:52Z jack_rip_vim: but i want to try on lisp
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2016-08-10T15:56:12Z Xach: jack_rip_vim: it involves learning a lot about the protocols you want to test. not a bad thing.
2016-08-10T15:56:59Z jack_rip_vim: ok, :D
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2016-08-10T15:57:19Z jack_rip_vim: thanks
2016-08-10T15:57:27Z cromachina: and if you dont care to learn, but still want to use lisp, you can load the nmap library with CFFI
2016-08-10T15:57:53Z jack_rip_vim: i will try it
2016-08-10T15:58:03Z jack_rip_vim: :)
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2016-08-10T15:59:16Z jack_rip_vim: thanks your guys.
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2016-08-10T16:09:48Z jaykru: is there any canon way to convert an integer to list of its constituent bytes in CL?
2016-08-10T16:09:55Z akkad: open a socket and send text
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2016-08-10T16:12:49Z cromachina: jaykru, ldb is one way
2016-08-10T16:13:10Z cromachina: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_ldb.htm
2016-08-10T16:14:20Z malice`: jaykru: I've used the method from these posts: http://www.lispforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1205
2016-08-10T16:14:49Z jaykru: cromachina, nice thanks! most explanations I've seen involve printing to binary then parsing the string 8 bits at a time.
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2016-08-10T16:25:14Z Xach: Thsoe are bad explanations and should be reprimanded
2016-08-10T16:26:06Z jack_rip_vim: i will figure out it
2016-08-10T16:29:09Z scymtym: for small integers (up to 64 bits), the nibbles library provides (setf (nibbles:ub{16,32,64}ref/{le,be} SIMPLE-UB8-ARRAY) INTEGER) and makes it super-efficient under some circumstances
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2016-08-10T16:30:47Z jack_rip_vim: :)
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2016-08-10T16:35:23Z jdz: known sizes are easy
2016-08-10T16:36:35Z jack_rip_vim: :)
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2016-08-10T17:04:57Z phoe: I have a design question regarding locks.
2016-08-10T17:05:26Z phoe: Currently I have a class that has three slots. I want access to these three slots to be thread-safe so I design three locks for these three slots.
2016-08-10T17:05:42Z phoe: So now I'm up to six slots.
2016-08-10T17:05:58Z jasom: phoe: do you ever need to update two slots atomically?
2016-08-10T17:06:22Z phoe: jasom: what do you mean, update them atomically? Both at once?
2016-08-10T17:06:32Z phoe: No, this would result in a pretty bad deadlock anyway.
2016-08-10T17:06:42Z jasom: phoe: yeah, change slot A and slot B in such a way that nobody should see old slot A and new slot B value (for example)
2016-08-10T17:07:01Z phoe: But my question is sort of different.
2016-08-10T17:07:16Z jasom: the real solution is to have only a single thread that ever writes to a given slot :)
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2016-08-10T17:07:52Z pierpa: another solution is to have immutable objects :)
2016-08-10T17:07:58Z jasom: phoe: sorry to interrupt you; what is your question?
2016-08-10T17:08:00Z phoe: Right now I'm having things like (with-lock-held ((lock-a my-instance)) (let ((a (a my-instance))) ...))
2016-08-10T17:08:05Z phoe: jasom: no problem
2016-08-10T17:08:40Z jasom: phoe: looks reasonable as these things go (though with-slots might be more clear)
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2016-08-10T17:12:37Z phoe: I think I know what I want to do.
2016-08-10T17:12:52Z phoe: I want to write my own accessor functions so they incorporate acquire-lock.
2016-08-10T17:13:34Z jasom: phoe: my experience is that if I have to write locking code I'm going to have heisenbugs in my future.  This despite the fact that I appear to be well above average at getting mutlithreaded code right
2016-08-10T17:13:52Z jasom: mutable shared state is the root of all evil
2016-08-10T17:14:01Z phoe: well, fsck.
2016-08-10T17:14:07Z phoe: Okay, let's have another go at it.
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2016-08-10T17:14:22Z phoe: Only a single thread that ever writes to a given slot?
2016-08-10T17:14:27Z jasom: C.A.R. Hoare wrote a paper on it a long time ago.
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2016-08-10T17:14:39Z phoe: This makes me need to redo my design.
2016-08-10T17:14:40Z phoe: But is doable.
2016-08-10T17:14:43Z dwchandler: jasom: that you worry about heisenbugs if why you're above average ;-)
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2016-08-10T17:15:09Z dwchandler: *is why
2016-08-10T17:15:45Z jasom: my dad had to read the CSP paper when he got his masters; he said 2/3 of the class didn't understand the problem that Hoare was talking about and 2/3 of the remainder thought that Hoare was exagerrating the problem.  They then all went on to write hard to reason about multithreaded code with mutable shared state.
2016-08-10T17:16:12Z dwchandler: heh
2016-08-10T17:16:36Z dwchandler: too bad rob pike only thought he understood hoare's paper
2016-08-10T17:16:49Z ggole: jasom: one writer many readers? Or just only one thread accessing the thing at all?
2016-08-10T17:17:24Z jasom: ggole: one writer many readers is easier to get correct and N readers or 1 reader/writer (i.e. no mutable shared state) is even easier to get correct
2016-08-10T17:17:49Z phoe: Okay, so - the deal is like that.
2016-08-10T17:18:08Z phoe: I'm writing a server where there are multiple connections (sockets) and an event queue.
2016-08-10T17:18:16Z jasom: using pure functional datastructures avoids mutable shared state by having no mutability.  Using processes rather than threads avoids it by avoiding shared state.
2016-08-10T17:18:35Z phoe: How should I go about multithreading it?
2016-08-10T17:18:43Z jasom: phoe: where is your state stored?
2016-08-10T17:19:02Z phoe: jasom: connections, because they're I/O, and the event queue.
2016-08-10T17:19:14Z jasom: phoe: Does it serve up non-static data?
2016-08-10T17:19:21Z ggole: jasom: Mmm. (There's also affinity, which allows mutation but only when there is no sharing.)
2016-08-10T17:19:39Z phoe: jasom: yes, it does.
2016-08-10T17:19:47Z jasom: ggole: yup, and that's really cool and an improvement over the previous solutions
2016-08-10T17:19:53Z jasom: phoe: who can modify that data?
2016-08-10T17:19:55Z phoe: Like - I want to do user creation and basic authentication on there.
2016-08-10T17:20:09Z jasom: phoe: the per-connection state never need be shared between threads
2016-08-10T17:20:10Z phoe: I must assume that everyone who connects will want to create or modify an account.
2016-08-10T17:20:20Z phoe: jasom: there's a problem.
2016-08-10T17:20:28Z phoe: Should I create one thread per connection?
2016-08-10T17:20:37Z phoe: And, if yes, what if I end up with a huge amount of threads?
2016-08-10T17:20:51Z jasom: phoe: no you create 1 thread per core if you can use asynchronous communication
2016-08-10T17:21:13Z phoe: Yes, I guessed as much.
2016-08-10T17:21:17Z jasom: phoe: but then no connection will ever be referrenced by two threads at the same time (it goes back in the queue when it quiesces, and one thread pulls it off when it is active)
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2016-08-10T17:21:49Z phoe: Wait wait.
2016-08-10T17:21:55Z phoe: I don't have a queue of connections.
2016-08-10T17:21:57Z phoe: I have a queue of events.
2016-08-10T17:22:11Z jasom: right, and each event carries with it which connection it is associated with, right?
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2016-08-10T17:22:25Z jasom: and hopefully you won't ever have a thread associated with two events simultaneously?
2016-08-10T17:22:28Z jasom: s/thread/connection
2016-08-10T17:22:40Z phoe: An event doesn't have to be associated with a connection.
2016-08-10T17:23:02Z jasom: but a connection that isn't actively running must be associated with an event, no?
2016-08-10T17:23:13Z phoe: Let me explain a bit more.
2016-08-10T17:24:01Z phoe: A connection can send a request, "create object A with data B", which is accidentally and conveniently also a sexp.
2016-08-10T17:24:31Z phoe: A thread finds out that the connection is ready, it grabs that request and puts it on the queue.
2016-08-10T17:24:33Z jasom: phoe: and where is object A stored in that case?
2016-08-10T17:25:01Z phoe: it's stored in a variable.
2016-08-10T17:25:11Z jasom: so no database being used?
2016-08-10T17:25:13Z phoe: Which is basically a hashtable or another sort of data structure.
2016-08-10T17:25:15Z phoe: jasom: not yet.
2016-08-10T17:25:47Z phoe: I want to bother the database later on.
2016-08-10T17:25:52Z jasom: you will simplify simultaneous access if you use a database, as they are designed as giant stores of mutable shared state, so inasmuch as it's possible to get that right, other people have done the hard work.
2016-08-10T17:26:02Z phoe: hm.
2016-08-10T17:26:11Z jasom: there is a performance cost to this, naturally.
2016-08-10T17:26:21Z phoe: someday I'll have to.
2016-08-10T17:26:38Z phoe: because the size of the data will outweigh the performance cost.
2016-08-10T17:27:26Z phoe: I need to go back to the whiteboard.
2016-08-10T17:28:02Z jasom: I would recommend, if you're not using a database, to at least serialize all access to the store in a single thread (that is the connection worker-threads send requests to the storage thread, and the storage thread linearizes the reads and writes).
2016-08-10T17:28:39Z phoe: How do I solve the problem that the storage thread queue has multiple writers?
2016-08-10T17:28:50Z phoe: Will a JPL-QUEUES:SYNCHRONIZED-QUEUE do?
2016-08-10T17:28:53Z jasom: phoe: use a library with a thread-safe queue
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2016-08-10T17:29:00Z phoe: oh right
2016-08-10T17:29:02Z phoe: very good.
2016-08-10T17:29:07Z cromachina: like chanl
2016-08-10T17:29:45Z jasom: we can't get away from mutexes existing somewhere (lock-free algorithms aside), but we can limit them to areas where it is possible to completely reason about their use
2016-08-10T17:30:18Z cromachina: or maybe something implementation specific like sb-concurrency:queue
2016-08-10T17:30:21Z cromachina: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#sb_002dconcurrency
2016-08-10T17:30:32Z jasom: If you have < 10k lines of code that uses the data and the mutexes, then it's very reasonable to get it completely correct.  This is part of why my dad's classmates thought Hoare was wrong.  There aren't any toy examples that prove him right.
2016-08-10T17:30:40Z cromachina: which is lock-free like jasom suggests
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2016-08-10T17:31:22Z jasom: also, lock-free algorithms are, if anything, *harder* to get right than mutexes, so the whole "avoiding mutexes" is really a shorthand for "avoiding mutable shared state" where mutexes or fancy lock-free algorithms are necessary.
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2016-08-10T17:39:33Z phoe: So, basically.
2016-08-10T17:39:38Z phoe: A thread may only own one lock at a time.
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2016-08-10T17:44:32Z phoe: s/own/hold/
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2016-08-10T17:45:34Z jasom: phoe: basically you should never have code where the amount of code using a given piece of mutable shared state is larger than what you can keep in your head all at once.
2016-08-10T17:46:05Z jasom: with a queue, the only mutable shared state is completely contained in the queue code (unless you are evil and decide to queue up references to things that you will mutate after putting in the queue)
2016-08-10T17:46:23Z jasom: and since queue code is on the order of hundreds of lines of code, it's easy to get right
2016-08-10T17:46:46Z phoe: well, I don't want to mutate stuff that's in the queue.
2016-08-10T17:46:47Z jasom: a thread safe queue can fit on a single page of paper at reasonable font sizes
2016-08-10T17:47:23Z jasom: I learned a lot of this the hard way, and the better you are at reasoning about code, the longer you can go thinking that there's nothing wrong with it.
2016-08-10T17:48:22Z phoe: I'm thinking of a very simple worker model here.
2016-08-10T17:48:52Z phoe: Basically a thread has only one pair of hands and can only "hold" one thing at a time. And acquiring/putting things in a place is atomic by means of a lock.
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2016-08-10T17:49:48Z cromachina: you are almost at the actor model
2016-08-10T17:49:58Z jasom: phoe: this is a very good model
2016-08-10T17:50:05Z phoe: cromachina: yay!?
2016-08-10T17:50:24Z phoe: Like, uh, wait. No.
2016-08-10T17:50:38Z phoe: It can hold multiple things. It's more along the line of, it can only access one facility at a time.
2016-08-10T17:50:54Z jasom: phoe: if your only means of sharing data is sending things across queues, then you will have much less buggy code.
2016-08-10T17:51:21Z phoe: jasom: well, I have connections, I have an event queue and I have a datastore.
2016-08-10T17:51:25Z jasom: you need to consider data "gone forever" once you send it on a queue though, if the data is mutable.
2016-08-10T17:52:05Z jasom: phoe: the datastore itself needs to be threadsafe (e.g. a database) or you should have only one thread directly accessing the datastore.  Mutable data retrieved from the datastore should be copied before leaving it.
2016-08-10T17:52:11Z phoe: no no, the data is not mutable.
2016-08-10T17:52:36Z jasom: oh, so you can't say "create object A with data B" then later say "append data C to the data in object A"?
2016-08-10T17:52:52Z phoe: I mean - wait.
2016-08-10T17:52:57Z phoe: The messages on the queue are not mutable.
2016-08-10T17:53:01Z jasom: right
2016-08-10T17:53:02Z phoe: The data itself is.
2016-08-10T17:53:10Z phoe: The data in the datastore.
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2016-08-10T17:53:41Z phoe: Like, I want anything to be able to grab the datastore lock and read stuff.
2016-08-10T17:53:43Z jasom: so copy the data before sending it back from the datastore thread to the connection thread.
2016-08-10T17:53:59Z phoe: But then I want mutation requests to be sent to the thread that grabs the lock and mutates it.
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2016-08-10T17:54:21Z phoe: jasom: I actually serialize it into a sexp that contains only symbols, numbers, strings and lists.
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2016-08-10T17:54:28Z phoe: All of which are immutable for me.
2016-08-10T17:54:54Z phoe: And this gets sent through a connection.
2016-08-10T17:54:56Z jasom: phoe: the other option is to make the datastore immutable (i.e. when you modify object A, you actually create a new object A with the updated data)
2016-08-10T17:55:09Z phoe: jasom: I'll actually think about it.
2016-08-10T17:55:21Z jasom: if the datastore is immutable then you can have safe concurrent reads with a single writer
2016-08-10T17:56:00Z jasom: this is not the only way to achieve safe concurrent reads with a single writer, but it's one of the easiest.
2016-08-10T17:56:17Z jasom: and make sure you use a thread-safe hash-table (I think that's not the default in sbcl).
2016-08-10T17:56:57Z phoe: thread-safe hash-table? What do you mean?
2016-08-10T17:57:09Z phoe: Like, placing a lock over GETHASH?
2016-08-10T17:57:14Z Bike: that there's a writer lock. :synchronized t on sbcl
2016-08-10T17:57:47Z Bike: "results are undefined if a thread writes to the hash-table concurrently with another reader or writer", says the docstring
2016-08-10T17:58:23Z phoe: Can I just wrap GETHASH and SETF GETHASH in WITH-LOCK-HELD?
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2016-08-10T17:59:47Z jasom: phoe: yes
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2016-08-10T18:03:10Z phoe: Very good.
2016-08-10T18:03:26Z phoe: And perhaps more portable, to the level of BT-portability.
2016-08-10T18:04:07Z jasom: phoe: I think lparallel has thread-safe hash tables in its kernel
2016-08-10T18:04:38Z Bike: i'm mildly surprised bt doesn't portablize em
2016-08-10T18:04:42Z fourier: there should be portable CLOS wrapper around different implementations of hash tables - for instance IIRC LW make-hash-table creates a thread-safe version by default (in contrast to SBCL)
2016-08-10T18:04:53Z Bike: clos?
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2016-08-10T18:05:18Z phoe: Bike: should it be a BT functionality to make a synchro-hash-table?
2016-08-10T18:05:19Z jasom: fourier: probably non-clos for performance
2016-08-10T18:06:05Z fourier: hm maybe yes, but is clos really a performance problematic still ?
2016-08-10T18:06:17Z Bike: no just... why would clos be involved
2016-08-10T18:06:40Z Bike: it's like (make-hash-table ... #+sbcl :synchronized #+sbcl t #+lw :unsynchronized #+lw nil) or something
2016-08-10T18:07:37Z fourier: just to add more functionality, some stuff from alexandria etc to one place
2016-08-10T18:07:46Z Bike: i actually don't see anything about synchronization in the lw docs
2016-08-10T18:07:51Z Bike: alexandria for one function?
2016-08-10T18:08:33Z fourier: Bike: I meant not only for this, but more functions working on hash tables, just to have all in one library
2016-08-10T18:08:39Z phoe: I was actually thinking whether the PEEK-CHAR-NO-HANG I just thought of should be uploaded somewhere, since it does look like a function someone else would like to find
2016-08-10T18:09:30Z Bike: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw60/LW/html/lw-813.htm#pgfId-1404928 oh, there it is, there's no creation flag.
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2016-08-10T18:10:20Z jasom: fourier: again why do functions working on hash tables have to use clos?
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2016-08-10T18:11:29Z Bike: what would you have, like, hash-table-alist from alexandria, with-locked-table i guess, weakness from trivial-garbage
2016-08-10T18:11:52Z fourier: jasom: probably to provide a way to to extend with different implementations of hash tables
2016-08-10T18:11:54Z phoe: Bike: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw60/LW/html/lw-608.htm#47359
2016-08-10T18:11:59Z phoe: single-thread
2016-08-10T18:12:30Z Bike: dammit.
2016-08-10T18:12:44Z phoe: so it's thread-safe by default.
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2016-08-10T18:24:49Z phoe: Basically - I have five places where a worker thread can look for something to be done.
2016-08-10T18:25:39Z phoe: How should I organize this?
2016-08-10T18:26:11Z phoe: Would the simplest workflow be simply (OR (A) (B) (C) (D) (E))?
2016-08-10T18:26:39Z phoe: Where A acquires the lock, checks whether there is anything to be done, does if there is, and releases the lock?
2016-08-10T18:27:04Z phoe: B, C, D, E do the same?
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2016-08-10T18:28:58Z dlowe: The simplest is to have a queue from which work can be taken
2016-08-10T18:30:00Z dlowe: and you pull the top thing off the queue (with a mutex) and dispatch on the thing
2016-08-10T18:30:02Z phoe: Yes. How do I update the queue?
2016-08-10T18:30:29Z phoe: Because I already have a queue, it's one of these five places.
2016-08-10T18:30:45Z Bike: why don't you have the other four places put their work on the queue
2016-08-10T18:30:56Z phoe: That would require four threads on these four places.
2016-08-10T18:31:01Z phoe: Like, four more threads.
2016-08-10T18:32:10Z phoe: To make the other four places put their work on the queue *on their own*.
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2016-08-10T18:33:52Z phoe: Unless I actually design this in a completely different way and specialize all the threads even further.
2016-08-10T18:34:37Z jasom: phoe: 4 threads is fine
2016-08-10T18:34:57Z jasom: phoe: 1 thread per connection is the issue.  a dozen threads is not a problem.
2016-08-10T18:35:13Z phoe: I see.
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2016-08-10T18:40:52Z jasom: honestly 1 thread per connection is fine for small to moderate servers; it's not always easy to convert though so it makes sense to design with a worker-thread pattern up front.
2016-08-10T18:41:33Z phoe: jasom: that's my idea.
2016-08-10T18:41:56Z jasom: I used the worker thread pattern here as it's not much extra work.  I need to change how mongrel2 distributes work though which will require changing the server: https://github.com/jasom/clack-handler-mongrel2
2016-08-10T18:43:33Z phoe: (defun do-nothing ())
2016-08-10T18:43:35Z phoe: I love this one <3
2016-08-10T18:44:27Z jasom: that lets you e.g. establish a database connection that persists for the lifetime of the worker thread
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2016-08-10T18:44:48Z jasom: I ran out of ports when testing my first app using it under high load, so I made that change.
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2016-08-10T18:45:09Z phoe: Mhmm.
2016-08-10T18:45:52Z jasom: I could have made it default to nil and done (and worker-entry (funcall worker-entry)) but defaulting to #'do-nothing made for cleaner code IMO.
2016-08-10T18:46:09Z phoe: jasom: do I need to make a separate thread for the datastore if I wrap every single call in a lock?
2016-08-10T18:46:23Z jasom: phoe: a single global lock for the entire datastore?
2016-08-10T18:46:26Z phoe: jasom: yes.
2016-08-10T18:46:32Z jasom: nope
2016-08-10T18:46:35Z jasom: that will also serialize it
2016-08-10T18:47:09Z jasom: note that either of those options hurts performance as you contend for the datastore.
2016-08-10T18:47:37Z phoe: jasom: I'll bother about it later, when I need to convert to a database.
2016-08-10T18:47:44Z jasom: and a lock-free queue with a single thread for the datastore may be faster than a global lock.  I personally prefer the single-thread approach, but may be in the minority on that one.
2016-08-10T18:48:14Z jasom: ideally you will write something like (get-my-data-from-store ...) and then you can change how that works
2016-08-10T18:48:20Z phoe: jasom: yes, exactly
2016-08-10T18:48:28Z phoe: how would the single-thread approach work?
2016-08-10T18:48:54Z phoe: It's more complicated than a global lock because I need to leave data at the datastore queue, leave it to the datastore thread, and then pick it up from the global queue.
2016-08-10T18:49:05Z jasom: (defun get-my-data-from-store (...) (send-message-to-store-thread ...) (wait-for-response-from-store-thread))
2016-08-10T18:49:10Z phoe: Or am I thinking it wrong?
2016-08-10T18:49:25Z jasom: the above is the the simple way
2016-08-10T18:49:38Z phoe: And also a more complicated one.
2016-08-10T18:49:54Z phoe: Because I need to store much more information not in the worker thread's local variables, but in the event itself
2016-08-10T18:49:54Z jasom: you could also tie in getting responses from the store with your event loop, which could be good for the database as well.
2016-08-10T18:50:11Z phoe: tie?
2016-08-10T18:50:23Z jasom: rather than doing a blocking wait for the response, have the store signal an event
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2016-08-10T18:50:43Z jasom: depending on the latency of getting an answer from the store one would be better than the other
2016-08-10T18:51:12Z phoe: the store would be a set of hashtables, so I guess it would be amortized O(1)
2016-08-10T18:51:27Z phoe: like, grabbing input from one of the hashtables from a set
2016-08-10T18:51:29Z jasom: phoe: O(M) where M is the number of threads accessing the store as well.
2016-08-10T18:51:38Z phoe: jasom: oh right.
2016-08-10T18:51:39Z jasom: assuming your underlying lock implementation doesn't suck
2016-08-10T18:51:46Z jasom: anyway I gotta go
2016-08-10T18:51:49Z phoe: thanks!
2016-08-10T18:51:51Z phoe: see you
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2016-08-10T19:17:23Z knobo`: Are there any download stats for quicklisp?
2016-08-10T19:17:49Z Xach: knobo`: I have them.
2016-08-10T19:17:59Z Xach needs to automate publishing them periodically
2016-08-10T19:19:59Z knobo`: There are stats for february 2016. If a project is not on the list, does it mean that it was not downloaded?
2016-08-10T19:20:13Z knobo`: ah.. top 100...
2016-08-10T19:20:50Z Xach: right
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2016-08-10T19:25:55Z knobo`: It would be interesting to see which projects are not used, also.
2016-08-10T19:26:05Z knobo`: For example does anyone use cl-cron
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2016-08-10T19:30:09Z Xach: knobo`: there may be some completists downloading it
2016-08-10T19:32:51Z knobo`: Right.. I'm thinking that ~460 downloads to reach top 100 is not much either.
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2016-08-10T19:34:05Z knobo`: Though I suspect many people use their own fork.
2016-08-10T19:34:22Z knobo`: And not everybody is using quicklisp.
2016-08-10T19:34:42Z knobo`: Though they should ;)
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2016-08-10T19:35:11Z phoe: pfffffft
2016-08-10T19:35:19Z phoe: time for a sixth refactor.
2016-08-10T19:35:28Z phoe: I'll get the design *more* right this time.
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2016-08-10T20:02:53Z John[Lisbeth]: I am using (step (if (oddp 5) 'yes 'no)) as suggested on page 142 of gentle introduction to lisp, but it seems to just => YES
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2016-08-10T20:03:41Z dlowe: John[Lisbeth]: you may be a victim of optimization :)
2016-08-10T20:03:51Z John[Lisbeth]: oh no
2016-08-10T20:03:52Z dlowe: the compiler can prove that (oddp 5) is always T
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2016-08-10T20:04:11Z John[Lisbeth]: can I disable this "optomization">
2016-08-10T20:04:20Z dlowe: and it can prove that (if T 'yes 'no) is always YES
2016-08-10T20:04:42Z John[Lisbeth]: golly
2016-08-10T20:04:50Z dlowe: maybe? try (declaim '(optimize (speed 0) (debug 3)))
2016-08-10T20:05:14Z John[Lisbeth]: Is that permanant?
2016-08-10T20:06:10Z Bike: no quote there
2016-08-10T20:06:31Z John[Lisbeth]: works now but produced NIL
2016-08-10T20:06:43Z Bike: what
2016-08-10T20:06:52Z John[Lisbeth]: u herd me
2016-08-10T20:06:55Z Bike: do you mean declaim returned nil?
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2016-08-10T20:07:02Z John[Lisbeth]: ya
2016-08-10T20:07:14Z John[Lisbeth]: do I win something?
2016-08-10T20:07:22Z knobo`: interesting missunderstanding.
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2016-08-10T20:07:46Z Bike: no. what declaim returns doesn't matter.
2016-08-10T20:07:48Z knobo`: dlowe: you have to realize that he is reading a gentle introduction to lisp
2016-08-10T20:07:59Z Bike: you were supposed to do the declaim and then try the step again.
2016-08-10T20:08:07Z John[Lisbeth]: I did tho
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2016-08-10T20:08:13Z Bike: and, how'd it go?
2016-08-10T20:08:17Z John[Lisbeth]: it => YES again
2016-08-10T20:08:21Z dlowe shrugs.
2016-08-10T20:08:57Z Bike: okay, so that would have been more helpful to say than "produced NIL", for future reference.
2016-08-10T20:09:14Z John[Lisbeth]: I produce apologies
2016-08-10T20:11:20Z Bike: ok, well, i can't make sbcl step that closely. you might want to get pjb's stepper package.
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2016-08-10T20:11:40Z Bike: oh, of course i just assumed you were using sbcl, you might be using something else?
2016-08-10T20:11:54Z John[Lisbeth]: I've got slime. I think it uses sbcl
2016-08-10T20:12:10Z John[Lisbeth]: Can I check the version of my compiler or something?
2016-08-10T20:12:20Z Bike: (lisp-implementation-type)
2016-08-10T20:12:33Z John[Lisbeth]: "SBCL"
2016-08-10T20:12:39Z Bike: there you go then
2016-08-10T20:13:00Z Bike: slime is an ide, it can work with most lisp implementations and doesn't come with one. just another note
2016-08-10T20:13:11Z John[Lisbeth]: tru
2016-08-10T20:13:42Z Bike: i don't know how sbcl's stepper works, but i don't think it's high priority for the devs. try pjb's stepper (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp.stepper)
2016-08-10T20:14:22Z John[Lisbeth]: as long as I don't need it to learn gentle, I can wait till I learn how to install lisp packages I think
2016-08-10T20:14:32Z Bike: ok.
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2016-08-10T20:17:37Z dim: just wanted to say it again: CL is wonderful. awesome. I just did again in a couple hours what I'm not sure I would have though “possible” (given time constraints and all) in another environment
2016-08-10T20:19:44Z knobo`: dim: so you probably know lisp better then other languages, then?
2016-08-10T20:20:01Z dim: I guess it's becoming more and more true yeah
2016-08-10T20:20:14Z dim: I'd say CL and SQL are my strong suits nowadays
2016-08-10T20:20:37Z knobo`: I would not know how to do anything in any other language right now. Except javascript.
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2016-08-10T20:22:25Z prole: I have a dream. A dream when the conkeror web browser is rewritten in common lisp
2016-08-10T20:23:03Z dim: https://common-lisp.net/project/closure/
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2016-08-10T20:25:39Z fitzsim: prole: yeah, that would be great
2016-08-10T20:26:13Z fitzsim: prole: except this dream browser should grab all keyboard events before JavaScript is allowed to override remap keys in "clever" ways
2016-08-10T20:26:33Z fitzsim: override/remap
2016-08-10T20:27:09Z phoe: wow
2016-08-10T20:27:13Z phoe: modal browser
2016-08-10T20:27:34Z phoe: javascript-keyboard-capture-mode
2016-08-10T20:27:57Z phoe: spacemacs can into space
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2016-08-10T20:28:23Z fitzsim: Google just broke Conkeror for me
2016-08-10T20:28:33Z fitzsim: by capturing all keyboard events into their search text field first
2016-08-10T20:28:43Z fitzsim: luckily they left M-x alone... for now
2016-08-10T20:29:42Z scottj: fitzsim: did you change user agent to firefox? I think that causes that (a more featureful version of google that steals keys to load)
2016-08-10T20:29:50Z fourier: prole: I also have a dream to have some popular software written in CL. (haskell has a pandoc for example)
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2016-08-10T20:30:27Z jdz: fourier: there's pgloader :)
2016-08-10T20:30:45Z fourier: jdz: :)))
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2016-08-10T20:31:29Z fourier: seriously though pgloader is a great example of killing tools CL definitely lacks in scale
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2016-08-10T20:38:20Z fitzsim: scottj: yes!  that must be it
2016-08-10T20:38:42Z fitzsim: scottj: I changed it to get fullscreen YouTube videos in Conkeror
2016-08-10T20:38:46Z scottj: fitzsim: if it's not join #conkeror and we can help troubleshoot it
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2016-08-10T20:39:22Z scottj: fitzsim: see user-agent-policy if not familiar with it
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2016-08-10T20:40:03Z fitzsim: scottj: or no, I think I changed the user-agent to trick some internal video service that works fine except for a != GNU/Linux check
2016-08-10T20:40:28Z fitzsim: scottj: on #conkeror now
2016-08-10T20:40:30Z shrdlu68: Hi, what format modifier does one use for field width with integers?
2016-08-10T20:40:46Z phoe: ~D?
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2016-08-10T20:41:34Z shrdlu68: phoe: What if I want 15 to print as 0f?
2016-08-10T20:41:34Z fourier: shrdlu68: (format t "~4,'0d" 99)
2016-08-10T20:42:09Z fourier: shrdlu68: here 4 is a width, 0 is a padding character
2016-08-10T20:42:24Z shrdlu68: fourier: Ah, thanks.
2016-08-10T20:43:20Z Bike: if you want it in hex just use x instead of d. takes those same options fine.
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2016-08-10T20:46:00Z shrdlu68: Something else I've been wondering: how does one deal with the C equivalent of uint8_t? Does a "byte" have a define size?
2016-08-10T20:46:18Z phoe: shrdlu68: it's Lisp! Bytes don't have a defined size.
2016-08-10T20:46:31Z phoe: But again - "byte" alone does not necessarily compose a complete type specifier.
2016-08-10T20:46:52Z fourier: shrdlu68: yes you can specify type as '(unsigned-byte 8) meaning 8 bits byte
2016-08-10T20:46:59Z phoe: ^
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2016-08-10T20:47:32Z phoe: And it's a fairly common type specifier, from the kind of compound type specifiers.
2016-08-10T20:47:36Z phoe: Meaning, more than just a symbol.
2016-08-10T20:48:15Z shrdlu68: TLS uses 24-bit integers 0_o. I've just been wondering how I'd do stuff like this in Lisp.
2016-08-10T20:48:34Z fourier: shrdlu68: typically you create arrays for binary data like this (make-array 10 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)). Or you can use deftype to make an 'alias' for this particular type. Some libraries do this.
2016-08-10T20:48:40Z phoe: '(unsigned-byte 24)?
2016-08-10T20:49:12Z phoe: That's the naive approach, but probably will work.
2016-08-10T20:49:40Z shrdlu68: Awesome! Had to do that same thing in C, except I had to manually swap the bytes around from a uint32_t, minding the endianness.
2016-08-10T20:49:54Z Bike: there are important differences between c types and lisp types, mainly in that they are promises to the compiler rather than things with distinct operations
2016-08-10T20:50:32Z Bike: eg, if you add two byte 8s it won't do a modulus for you and you could end up with something that doesn't fit in a byte8
2016-08-10T20:52:09Z phoe: Bike: how does one achieve C-like behaviour in Lisp, then?
2016-08-10T20:52:25Z Bike: do it yourself. (mod (+ x y) 256)
2016-08-10T20:52:39Z phoe: Oh. And the compiler is smart enough to get it?
2016-08-10T20:52:55Z Bike: hopefully! (sbcl is, i imagine ccl is)
2016-08-10T20:53:06Z phoe: We can always DISASSEMBLE.
2016-08-10T20:53:09Z Bike: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Modular-arithmetic
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2016-08-10T20:54:40Z jasom: sbcl is only reliably smart enough to generate efficient code with machine-word sized modulos though
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2016-08-10T20:55:08Z fourier: Bike: on other hand if you do something like modular arithmetic in C assuming overflows you are basically looking for troubles as well. you should know your size
2016-08-10T20:55:11Z fourier: s
2016-08-10T20:55:18Z jasom: so (mod (+ x y) #.(expt 2 32)) may be faster on 32-bit than 64-bit
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2016-08-10T21:07:41Z plertrood: Hi, I am trying to understand the difference between handler-bind and handler-case.
2016-08-10T21:08:00Z plertrood: According to the hyperspec they are roughly equivalent...
2016-08-10T21:08:47Z plertrood: But I am finding if I call (error ...) within handler-bind where one of my handlers is for simple-error, it drops me into the debugger.
2016-08-10T21:09:10Z plertrood: With handler-case, it doesn't. My handler for simple-error is invoked.
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2016-08-10T21:09:24Z plertrood: Any ideas what could explain this difference?
2016-08-10T21:10:14Z sjl: plertrood: the conditions chapter in PCL might help you: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-exception-handling-conditions-and-restarts.html
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2016-08-10T21:11:50Z plertrood: Ok, thanks. Have read many times - but it normally takes even more for this stuff to sink in for me....
2016-08-10T21:12:56Z sjl: philosophically, handler-case is like try/catch in most other languages
2016-08-10T21:13:54Z Bike: plertrood: handler bind just binds a function that is called for a given error. to actually "handle" the condition, you need to transfer control somehow (like by invoke-restart). handler-case always transfers control.
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2016-08-10T21:14:47Z sjl: I try to remember it as "handler-case runs the handling code after unwinding the stack, handler-bind runs the handling code BEFORE unwinding the stack"
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2016-08-10T21:15:23Z Bike: probably a simpler way to think about it. maybe add "and handler-bind won't unwind anything, that's your job"
2016-08-10T21:15:30Z sjl: with the 'b' in 'bind' standing for 'before'
2016-08-10T21:16:12Z dwchandler: the 'b' in 'bind' stands for 'berkeley'
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2016-08-10T21:17:35Z phoe: the 'b' in 'bind' stands for 'back in the old days we were catchin' conditions with our bare teeth cuz all the damn handlers were so expenshive'
2016-08-10T21:17:54Z phoe goes to sleep
2016-08-10T21:18:45Z plertrood: Ah I see. So handler-bind doen't unwind the stack, it just carries on. handler-case does.
2016-08-10T21:18:57Z plertrood: I haven't quite got to working out restarts yet..
2016-08-10T21:19:04Z Bike: that's fair, they're confusing.
2016-08-10T21:19:52Z sjl: yeah I have to look this up all the time, the names are confusing
2016-08-10T21:19:53Z Bike: what's happening with you, with handler bind, is your error handler gets called, and returns normally, so error looks for another one. it can't find one, so it goes into the debugger. your handler is invoked in both cases, it just doesn't actually handle with -bind
2016-08-10T21:19:54Z plertrood: So I think if you are using restarts, you have to use handler-bind?
2016-08-10T21:19:58Z Bike: yeah
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2016-08-10T21:20:23Z phoe: unless your only restarts are retry and abort and so on
2016-08-10T21:20:33Z phoe: for very simple cases.
2016-08-10T21:20:47Z Bike: no, you still can't invoke those from a handler-case
2016-08-10T21:21:18Z phoe: oh wait
2016-08-10T21:21:20Z phoe: restart-case
2016-08-10T21:21:29Z phoe: God damn Lisp for inventing such similar and confusing names
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2016-08-10T21:21:36Z plertrood: :-)
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2016-08-10T21:21:54Z Bike: i don't think i've ever actually seen restart-bind used
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2016-08-10T21:24:09Z plertrood: So it looks like handler-case uses 'catch' under the hood to transfer control.
2016-08-10T21:24:20Z plertrood: handler-bind doesn't.
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2016-08-10T21:25:12Z Bike: well, what it uses is implementation business
2016-08-10T21:25:19Z Bike: handler-bind won't transfer control at all
2016-08-10T21:25:23Z plertrood: Ah, ok.
2016-08-10T21:25:30Z plertrood: This is in CCL.
2016-08-10T21:26:33Z plertrood: At least it seems possible to write your own version of handler-case in ansi lisp because of this catch/throw combination.
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2016-08-10T21:26:45Z Bike: there's a definition at the bottom of the clhs page
2016-08-10T21:26:47Z Bike: clhs handler-case
2016-08-10T21:26:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_hand_1.htm
2016-08-10T21:26:59Z Bike: uses a twisty combo of blocks and tagbody. sbcl copies it, i think
2016-08-10T21:28:21Z jasom: either of catch/trhow and handler-bind/signal can be implemented in terms of the other
2016-08-10T21:28:41Z plertrood: Wow that is some gnarley lisp there.
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2016-08-10T21:29:30Z plertrood: So I can essentially pass a lambda down to a function that contains a goto to the enclosing function and have that lambda invoked deep down in the call stack.
2016-08-10T21:29:40Z Bike: i was going to disagree but then i saw the second expansion uses multiple-value-call, so yeah, no, that's grody
2016-08-10T21:29:47Z jasom: plertrood: correct
2016-08-10T21:29:54Z plertrood: Presumable the stack unwinding is handled properly..
2016-08-10T21:30:08Z jasom: go must be lexically contained, but the tagbody has dynamic extent
2016-08-10T21:30:15Z Bike: plertrood: tagbody tags have 'dynamic extent' so you can do wacky shit like that yeah. goto in lisp is pretty involved
2016-08-10T21:30:45Z jasom: tagbody tags are lexically scoped but have dynamic extent <-- better wording for what I said
2016-08-10T21:30:46Z plertrood: Thats pretty cool.
2016-08-10T21:31:16Z Bike: tagbody/go is also equipotential with catch/throw and handler-bind/signal like jasom mentioned
2016-08-10T21:31:32Z jasom: http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html
2016-08-10T21:31:42Z Bike: now there are some gnarls
2016-08-10T21:32:12Z jasom: The implementation of LABELS using FLET is pretty slick
2016-08-10T21:32:12Z plertrood: equipotential?
2016-08-10T21:32:32Z Bike: just made that up. meaning you can implement any two in terms of the third
2016-08-10T21:32:40Z jasom: plertrood: meaning they have equal power; where power means the ability to describe a certain form of flow control
2016-08-10T21:33:06Z jasom: e.g. if I give you just tagbody/go you can implement catch/throw and vice-versa
2016-08-10T21:33:12Z plertrood: cool word!
2016-08-10T21:33:42Z jasom: You see it a lot in electronics
2016-08-10T21:33:45Z Bike: i mean, what it actually means is that they have the same electrical potential, or gravitational potential, or whatever
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2016-08-10T21:34:25Z jasom: it means "same potential" and is usually used in physics
2016-08-10T21:35:27Z plertrood: Thanks, that has been very enlightening. I have some experimentation to do. :-)
2016-08-10T21:35:41Z Bike: don't stick a fork in the outlet
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