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2016-08-07T00:04:28Z louve: Hello, i am using common lisp and i am trying to understand the difference between these 2 lines: (defparameter *test* "test") and (defparameter *test* (read-from-string "test"))
2016-08-07T00:04:58Z oleo: in one case it will be a string assignment
2016-08-07T00:05:14Z louve: the first case is string assignement ?
2016-08-07T00:05:16Z oleo: in the other read-from-string will return 'test as a symbol i assume
2016-08-07T00:05:23Z oleo: yes the first is string
2016-08-07T00:05:55Z louve: humm so in the second case *test* contains a symbol ?
2016-08-07T00:06:19Z oleo: yes i'd say so
2016-08-07T00:07:42Z phoe: (read-from-string "test") will return a symbol TEST interned in the current package.
2016-08-07T00:07:58Z oleo: eheh
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2016-08-07T00:09:35Z louve: thx for the information, indeed i just notice that (read) return a symbol too in fact
2016-08-07T00:09:55Z louve: but (read-line) return a string
2016-08-07T00:12:26Z Bike: yes. you might want to check the function descriptions.
2016-08-07T00:12:29Z phoe: Ayup, (read-line) returns a string.
2016-08-07T00:12:32Z phoe: clhs read-line
2016-08-07T00:12:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_lin.htm
2016-08-07T00:12:37Z phoe: clhs read
2016-08-07T00:12:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm
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2016-08-07T00:53:22Z oleo: i get an error http://paste.lisp.org/display/322405
2016-08-07T00:56:53Z phoe: oleo: that looks like a C/C++ error.
2016-08-07T00:57:24Z oleo: ya
2016-08-07T00:58:00Z oleo: my system has changed, before i got the gsll package over sbopkg now i'm got it from slackpkg.....
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2016-08-07T00:58:17Z oleo: i dist-upgraded all systems already
2016-08-07T00:58:23Z oleo: and even the client
2016-08-07T00:58:39Z oleo: seems the bug is legit
2016-08-07T01:01:00Z oleo: i didn't look into the sources yet
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2016-08-07T01:10:03Z oleo: hmm, seems like J is a matrix
2016-08-07T01:10:15Z oleo: as a matrix it would not be a simple pointer ?
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2016-08-07T01:11:17Z oleo: or the name to which it refers is mistyped
2016-08-07T01:11:32Z oleo: jac rather than J
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2016-08-07T01:14:30Z oleo: i'd rather say a name mismatch....
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2016-08-07T01:22:44Z oleo: pheo: is a struct member a slot directly ?
2016-08-07T01:27:41Z oleo: nope, seems a real type mismatch rather....
2016-08-07T01:29:46Z LiamH: What version of GSL are you using?
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2016-08-07T01:44:57Z oleo: gsl-2.1
2016-08-07T01:46:30Z LiamH: GSLL does not load for GSL 2.x.
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2016-08-07T01:47:09Z oleo: oww man
2016-08-07T01:47:12Z oleo: now what ?
2016-08-07T01:47:17Z oleo: i can't use it ?
2016-08-07T01:47:30Z LiamH: Get an older version of GSL, 1.16 is the last 1.x version, and it loads.
2016-08-07T01:47:56Z oleo: when will 2.1 support be available ?
2016-08-07T01:48:18Z LiamH: No idea.
2016-08-07T01:48:38Z oleo: typedef struct gsl_multifit_function_fdf_struct gsl_multifit_function_fdf ;
2016-08-07T01:48:38Z oleo: typedef struct
2016-08-07T01:48:38Z oleo:   {
2016-08-07T01:48:38Z oleo:     const char *name;
2016-08-07T01:48:38Z oleo:     size_t size;
2016-08-07T01:48:39Z oleo:     int (*alloc) (void *state, size_t n, size_t p);
2016-08-07T01:48:41Z oleo:     int (*set) (void *state, const gsl_vector * wts,
2016-08-07T01:48:43Z oleo:                 gsl_multifit_function_fdf * fdf, gsl_vector * x,
2016-08-07T01:48:47Z oleo:                 gsl_vector * f, gsl_vector * dx);
2016-08-07T01:48:49Z oleo:     int (*iterate) (void *state, const gsl_vector * wts,
2016-08-07T01:48:51Z oleo:                     gsl_multifit_function_fdf * fdf, gsl_vector * x,
2016-08-07T01:48:53Z oleo:                     gsl_vector * f, gsl_vector * dx);
2016-08-07T01:48:54Z LiamH: Please don't flood
2016-08-07T01:48:55Z oleo:     int (*gradient) (void *state, gsl_vector * g);
2016-08-07T01:48:57Z oleo:     int (*jac) (void *state, gsl_matrix * J);
2016-08-07T01:48:59Z oleo:     void (*free) (void *state);
2016-08-07T01:49:01Z oleo:   }
2016-08-07T01:49:03Z oleo: gsl_multifit_fdfsolver_type;
2016-08-07T01:49:09Z oleo: i won't
2016-08-07T01:49:30Z oleo: do you see that int (*jac) (void *state, gsl_matrix * J); thing ?
2016-08-07T01:49:41Z oleo: in that struct
2016-08-07T01:49:49Z LiamH: There are many API changes in GSL, and it is not easy to find, let alone change them.
2016-08-07T01:50:18Z oleo: hmmm, ok
2016-08-07T01:50:24Z oleo: maybe i should just wait
2016-08-07T01:50:47Z LiamH: That is one option. The other, as I said, is to get an older version of GSL.
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2016-08-07T01:58:19Z oleo: do i have to remove the system one then ?
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2016-08-07T01:58:30Z oleo: what if other stuff breaks
2016-08-07T01:59:24Z oleo: anyway, thank you for the info
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2016-08-07T02:02:49Z LiamH: Not sure, depends on OS and how library is installed.
2016-08-07T02:02:53Z LiamH: NP
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2016-08-07T03:27:30Z totimkopf: curly braces in a lisp channel :S
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2016-08-07T03:34:13Z cromachina: { domain specific language }
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2016-08-07T03:45:57Z edgar-rft is wearing his curly braces right now
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2016-08-07T04:22:55Z akkad: 24 hours to load parse/insert 7 days of aws vpc flow data in lisp. guessing this can e optimized. 6.9 million rows.
2016-08-07T04:24:04Z pierpa: 80 rows/second
2016-08-07T04:25:58Z pierpa: looks like there's ample margin for improvement
2016-08-07T04:28:22Z akkad: 100% normalized
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2016-08-07T04:47:20Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-08-07T04:47:26Z akkad: morning beach
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2016-08-07T07:58:59Z rumbler31: I want to do fun stuff with signals.  I have an idea and I don't know if I can "have my cake and eat it too" here or not
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2016-08-07T08:02:35Z rumbler31: I have a file with recorded vehicle telemetry, and somewhere in the file is the date the data was recorded.  I have code to get all the data I need from the file, but what I want to do is make a higher layer able to stop processing of a current file if the date (or really, any data I choose) does not match an input spec.  I've been reading and rereading pcl's chapter on conditions.  what I think i need is to throw a signal when I find the da
2016-08-07T08:02:35Z rumbler31: ta I am looking for, but also provide for a restart that says "continue reading".  Higher level code would need to be able to unwind the stack upon processing the signal's data, or decide to invoke the restart.
2016-08-07T08:03:46Z rumbler31: the way I understand it, if I use handler-case, the stack will be rewound if the signal is fired.  if I use handler-bind, how do I return control to the higher level when I decide I don't need this file?
2016-08-07T08:03:49Z rumbler31: or is this a bridge too far?
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2016-08-07T08:16:52Z Zhivago: Stack is not rewound when the signal is fired.
2016-08-07T08:17:37Z Zhivago: The signal may elect to perform a non-local transfer, which may involve the stack being unwound, i.e., in order to reach a restart.
2016-08-07T08:18:00Z Zhivago: handler-case sets up some of the boiler-plate for you.
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2016-08-07T08:33:44Z jackdaniel: yes, handler-case is very handy
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2016-08-07T08:38:51Z rumbler31: hmm ok
2016-08-07T08:39:04Z rumbler31: let me see if I can get a minimal working set
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2016-08-07T09:46:11Z rumbler3_: as I read the spec, using handler-case in the high level function to process the signal seems to suggest that I will not be able to decide to continue executing the low level function if I decide that's what I want to do, is this accurate?
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2016-08-07T09:48:21Z Bike: Yes. Use handler-bind if you want to restart.
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2016-08-07T10:15:16Z rumbler3_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/322431
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2016-08-07T10:16:39Z rumbler3_: ok so basically this is a skeleton of what i have so far, I realize I forgot to place the restart in the low level, and in the match-or-keep-going condition handler, I don't know what I would put there in order to "continue" the loop with the next item in the source list
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2016-08-07T10:22:32Z rumbler3_: although with the restart-case... I wonder how I'm going to add this to my real low level. i'll be part way through reading a stream, once i've read enough data in order to instantiate the signal, this restart-case form seems to suggest that i'd have to put the rest of my code after that point inside the case.  is inside the case a place where it would be safe to .. make a tagbody around the remainder of the function and then invoke go?
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2016-08-07T10:37:51Z scymtym: rumbler3_: you don't need a restart for continuing. when LOW-LEVEL signals and HIGH-LEVEL does not handle the signaled condition by doing a non-local transfer of control (RETURN, GO, etc.), the SIGNAL call just returns and the low-level continues. see http://paste.lisp.org/display/322431#1
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2016-08-07T10:38:54Z rumbler3_: oh.. thats even more convenient
2016-08-07T10:39:04Z scymtym: well, that doesn't demonstrate it properly
2016-08-07T10:39:28Z rumbler3_: what do you mean
2016-08-07T10:39:30Z scymtym: since the only time the condition is signaled, it does /not/ continue. but you get the idea
2016-08-07T10:39:45Z rumbler3_: oh, yes
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2016-08-07T10:42:21Z rumbler3_: i haven't used blocks or tagbody forms much, I want to end up skipping items in the loop.  but maybe it would be easier to do something different.
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2016-08-07T10:43:01Z scymtym: as written in the comment, you can use (return-from high-level) and omit the BLOCK if you like that better
2016-08-07T10:43:31Z rumbler3_: the use case right now is I have way too many files.  and I want to begin building reports from them from certain date ranges, so my high level function could just accept a (directory "*.log") call without the user having to actually manipulate the filesystem, the inner loop would be a dolist
2016-08-07T10:43:43Z rumbler3_: I appreciate the example though
2016-08-07T10:44:44Z rumbler3_: but I think this gets me most of the way there, as long as I can wrap the handler-bind inside a tagbody and the handler jump to somewhere inside the tagbody
2016-08-07T10:45:00Z rumbler3_: it might look hairy, but if that is allowed, then I think I can do what I need
2016-08-07T10:45:40Z scymtym: you could do the control transfer with TAGBODY/GO instead of BLOCK/RETURN-FROM, yes
2016-08-07T10:48:17Z rumbler3_: if I define a function object for use with the handler-case, is it legal to have a (go call in it, with the assumption that I would only use it inside a tagbody form with the appropriate label? or would I have to create one in place with lambda?
2016-08-07T10:48:45Z rumbler3_: ah, the compiler complains.  I guess that makes sense
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2016-08-07T10:51:01Z rumbler3_: oh, complains with the lambda as well
2016-08-07T10:53:22Z scymtym: if i understand what you describe correctly, that is possible, but HANDLER-CASE does not accept function objects. did you mean HANDLER-BIND?
2016-08-07T10:53:37Z rumbler3_: http://paste.lisp.org/+6WSF/2
2016-08-07T10:53:49Z rumbler3_: yes i meant handler bind
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2016-08-07T10:57:06Z scymtym: note the other changes i made in annotation #1. the DEFINE-CONDITION form was slightly off. also, tags in a TAGBODY must appear "directly" in the body of the TAGBODY, not within some other forms
2016-08-07T10:58:07Z scymtym: you have to move the TAGBODY and HANDLER-BIND into the body of the DOLIST to make that idea work
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2016-08-07T10:59:39Z scymtym: like http://paste.lisp.org/display/322431#3
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2016-08-07T11:04:04Z rumbler3_: ignore the bad define-condition form I have it fixed now
2016-08-07T11:04:40Z rumbler3_: ahh looks like I understood what you meant
2016-08-07T11:07:49Z rumbler3_: well, it doesn't like my signal form, complaining about invalid initargs
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2016-08-07T11:08:17Z rumbler3_: I changed my define-condition form to be like yours but I guess if I messed up to begin with, can conditions be redefined?
2016-08-07T11:08:36Z rumbler3_: nevermind i'm dumb
2016-08-07T11:09:24Z rumbler3_: although low-level when called by itself is returning nil and not the argument
2016-08-07T11:11:33Z scymtym: (low-level THING) returns THING here, irregardless of whether (eql THING 2) or not, as expected
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2016-08-07T11:26:14Z rumbler3_: yea thats what I want
2016-08-07T11:26:59Z rumbler3_: the low-level would be replaced with "when you read this field, signal" in this case I just want to be explicit. but all I want low level to do is return its argument
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2016-08-07T11:34:30Z rumbler3_: needed to redefine my function.
2016-08-07T11:35:04Z rumbler3_: holy shit it works
2016-08-07T11:35:10Z rumbler3_: thats sick
2016-08-07T11:35:44Z rumbler3_: ty scymtym
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2016-08-07T17:00:14Z mobius-eng: Hi all, has anyone worked with cl-cffi-gtk package? I'm trying to create a new signal with G-SIGNAL-NEWV, but so far rather unsuccessfully
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2016-08-07T17:20:12Z ferada: mobius-eng: do you have an example of what fails?
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2016-08-07T17:53:19Z mobius-eng: ferada: I've just rebooted my laptop into Windows... but the error was that CLASS-CLOSURE argument was NIL and SB-INT:AREA-POINTER was expected
2016-08-07T17:53:50Z mobius-eng: According to Gtk docs, this argument can be NULL, in which case the default value is used
2016-08-07T17:54:09Z cromachina: try (nullptr) instead
2016-08-07T17:54:44Z mobius-eng: If there is any example of creating a new signal, I will really apreciate (unfortunately, none of demos in cl-cffi-gtk has it)
2016-08-07T17:55:04Z mobius-eng: cromachina: thanks, I will try it
2016-08-07T17:56:06Z cromachina: mobius-eng, sorry that was (null-pointer)
2016-08-07T17:56:10Z cromachina: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html#null_002dpointer
2016-08-07T17:56:14Z cromachina: assuming CFFI
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2016-08-07T18:04:28Z ferada: what cromachina said. if you need the closures you'll also have to read about defcallback probably. it's barely a wrapper around the c library, so best if you find an example using that and translate it one-to-one first
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2016-08-07T18:47:50Z leupold: How did you guys go about learning Lisp? I'm looking for a learning resource that has no assumed knowledge
2016-08-07T18:48:06Z leupold: We're talking maximum hand holding here
2016-08-07T18:48:16Z axion: leupold: Practical Common Lisp
2016-08-07T18:48:52Z leupold: axion: Thanks - and I can dive into that with no prior knowledge?
2016-08-07T18:49:00Z cromachina: and then you could follow that up with Let Over Lambda
2016-08-07T18:49:12Z axion: Correct, start from the beginning and be sure to do the excercises in order
2016-08-07T18:49:32Z phoe: leupold: do you know *any* programming?
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2016-08-07T18:49:47Z phoe: T => Practical Common Lisp, NIL => A Gentle Introduction To Symbolic Computation
2016-08-07T18:50:31Z leupold: phoe: I know a little linux, I got up to challenge 9 in Project Euler using Python, so I could probably program my way out of a paper bag
2016-08-07T18:50:45Z phoe: Practical Common Lisp it is then!
2016-08-07T18:50:56Z leupold: phoe: But I asked for no assumed knowledge because a lot of resources dive in way too fast!
2016-08-07T18:51:02Z leupold: phoe: Haha, okay, rgeat
2016-08-07T18:51:04Z phoe: Practical Common Lisp it is then!~
2016-08-07T18:51:25Z phoe: You're diving right into Lisp in the second chapter but you're guided all along.
2016-08-07T18:51:29Z phoe: So you should be all right.
2016-08-07T18:51:38Z cromachina: dont forget to eventually learn C
2016-08-07T18:51:43Z mobius-eng: Land of Lisp?
2016-08-07T18:51:52Z leupold: cromachina: Why's that?
2016-08-07T18:52:27Z leupold: Also, for reference, don't do what I did and go to www.gigmonkeys.com to find the book - although it does seem to be a good website if you're looking for a gig
2016-08-07T18:52:42Z phoe: wlp
2016-08-07T18:52:43Z phoe: welp
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2016-08-07T18:55:40Z phoe: fsck, it turns out I did my design wrong for the fifth time
2016-08-07T18:55:47Z phoe: time for yet another refactor™
2016-08-07T18:55:52Z Grue`: when I was learning Lisp, I had no Internet connection and I had to use some sort of Lisp introduction textfile that came bundled with CLISP
2016-08-07T18:56:03Z leupold: cromachina: I'm curious why it is you think I should eventually learn C? Sorry if it's a stupid question
2016-08-07T18:56:20Z cromachina: you'll eventually want to learn how the machine works under the surface, especially in regards to memory and talking to other libraries
2016-08-07T18:56:29Z phoe: it's good that I'm modularizing my code with each iteration so it's becoming easier to refactor over time.
2016-08-07T18:56:39Z leupold: cromachina: Ah, got it, makes sense
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2016-08-07T18:57:13Z cromachina: you're on your way to becoming a fine polyglot
2016-08-07T18:58:26Z phoe: {}
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2016-08-07T19:16:43Z leupold: Can someone explain succintly what it means for code to be "portable"?
2016-08-07T19:18:25Z pjb: leupold: it means that you can compile and run it on some other machine.
2016-08-07T19:18:48Z pjb: leupold: how different the two machines are depends on the "portability" of the code.
2016-08-07T19:19:23Z leupold: pjb: As in, how differently the code runs on each machine? And is the main defining factor of portability the libraries a particular program uses?
2016-08-07T19:19:38Z cromachina: it can also mean portability across different lisp implementations
2016-08-07T19:19:50Z axion: In regard to CL, it usually means it will work across CL implementations
2016-08-07T19:20:19Z leupold: So whatever CL implementation you're using, so long as it's based on the CL standard, it'll run?
2016-08-07T19:20:30Z cromachina: yes
2016-08-07T19:20:37Z pjb: leupold: indeed, a factor in the portability of the code, is its modularity.  When you have very modular code, which abstracts external dependencies in specific and independent modules, it can be more easily ported to a new machine, by just rewriting those interface modules.
2016-08-07T19:21:12Z pjb: axion: nope. In the context of CL, the property of being able to run across different CL implementations is the conformity of the code.
2016-08-07T19:21:43Z pjb: You can have portable code that is not conforming, and conforming code that is not portable.
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2016-08-07T19:22:07Z cromachina: there are also libraries available that join non-standard, but typical features into a common interface
2016-08-07T19:22:18Z leupold: pjb Okay, I think that might be a little beyond my current understanding, but to confirm my loose understanding, a piece of code might have a block (modular block?) that connects external libraries to the code, and so if the code is ported to another machine, it's only that interface [module] that needs to be modified?
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2016-08-07T19:22:33Z pjb: leupold: yes.
2016-08-07T19:22:51Z leupold: pjb Thank you, I think I'm on the way to understanding
2016-08-07T19:23:13Z pjb: leupold: notably if the rest of the code is conforming, it'll run on all conforming implementations.  So only the implementation or platform specific interface modules need to be "ported" to port the whole program.
2016-08-07T19:23:40Z pjb: leupold: you can also use "portability" libraries that provide interfaces to features that are specific to each platform.
2016-08-07T19:24:04Z leupold: pjb: So I can infer from what you've said that there are some libraries I might want to use that are only compatible with a Windows-based system?
2016-08-07T19:24:06Z pjb: leupold: so portability-libraries + conforming-code makes a good portable program :-)
2016-08-07T19:24:33Z leupold: pjb: What does conforming code mean?
2016-08-07T19:24:50Z pjb: Those portability libraries are usually structured in a modular fashion, with a common API and common feature module, and a set of implementation or platform  specific modules.
2016-08-07T19:25:02Z pjb: conforming code is code that will produce the same results on all conforming implementations.
2016-08-07T19:25:18Z pjb: This is basically code that is written following the rules of the CL standard.
2016-08-07T19:25:22Z phoe: ^
2016-08-07T19:26:15Z cromachina: a simple example of this in action: https://github.com/trivial-features/trivial-features/tree/master/src
2016-08-07T19:26:52Z leupold: pjb: Right, so there's a Common Lisp standard which sets out things like operators, how new functions are defined, etc. and so long as other people follow the conventions of the standard (i.e. conform to the standard) the code will generate the same results in different implementations?
2016-08-07T19:29:22Z cromachina: it's usually implementations of CL that conform to the standard. you will know when you are doing something non-standard when you start dipping into implementation specific packages
2016-08-07T19:29:42Z leupold: cromachina: Okay, that makes sense
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2016-08-07T19:31:05Z pjb: leupold: yes, basically. Notice however that some feature in the standard are marked "implementation dependant". So you have to use them with care to produce conforming code.
2016-08-07T19:32:23Z pjb: lisp-implementation-type will obviously produce different results on different implementations (it's its purpose).  More problematic is that physical pathnames are implementation and platform dependant obviously. (Logical pathnames are not, but since you need eventually to translate logical pathnames to physical pathname, the difficulty remains, even if it can be modularized out).
2016-08-07T19:32:43Z pjb: cromachina: the CL standard is a 2-way contract!
2016-08-07T19:33:05Z pjb: conforming implementations will produce conforming results, only for conforming programs.
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2016-08-07T19:42:52Z leupold: pjb: Okay, I think I'm with you - whank you very much for the explanations :)
2016-08-07T19:44:08Z leupold: On a subject related to learning Lisp, does anybody know of a good Emacs command reference that I can print out and use for reference?
2016-08-07T19:44:36Z Bike: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/refcards/pdf/refcard.pdf
2016-08-07T19:47:00Z phoe: What would be the recommended way for making a stop-switch for threads?
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2016-08-07T19:47:27Z phoe: Like, issuing a command that will stop all threads running my custom function until I issue another command to let them work again?
2016-08-07T19:48:34Z phoe: Should I just make a single BT lock that each thread has to acquire and then immediately release in order to make its next iteration?
2016-08-07T19:49:00Z phoe: So then I can acquire it in my C&C thread to halt all of them, and when I release it, everything starts again?
2016-08-07T19:49:36Z cromachina: why not just kill them if you no longer care about the result?
2016-08-07T19:49:59Z Bike: this sounds more like 'pause' than 'stop'
2016-08-07T19:50:15Z Bike: anyway, isn't that condition-wait or something
2016-08-07T19:51:31Z phoe: yes, pause
2016-08-07T19:52:08Z phoe: Oh right! Condition variables.
2016-08-07T19:52:28Z cromachina: sounds like you are working your way toward channels
2016-08-07T19:52:30Z cromachina: and then actors
2016-08-07T19:52:44Z phoe: cromachina: channels?
2016-08-07T19:53:20Z cromachina: a method of synchronization using message passing
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2016-08-07T19:54:14Z cromachina: https://github.com/zkat/chanl
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2016-08-07T19:59:03Z mobius-eng: cromachina: CFFI:NULL-POINTER worked, thanks!
2016-08-07T19:59:15Z cromachina: np
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2016-08-07T23:28:54Z dim: phoe: do you know the lparallel library?
2016-08-07T23:30:02Z dim: it includes lparallel.queues that you can use e.g. to feed worker threads from a controller thread; I do that a lot in pgloader (and other places too)
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2016-08-07T23:30:27Z phoe: dim: oh!
2016-08-07T23:30:35Z phoe: I'll munch on it soon.
2016-08-07T23:30:36Z phoe: Thanks!
2016-08-07T23:30:56Z dim: one use case I have with it is to have a “monitoring” thread that maintains the logs file, workers send it messages to append to the log, that allows printing one full message at a time and avoids CCL errors when you try to share an open stream in between threads
2016-08-07T23:31:35Z dim: lmj shows up here sometimes, he's the author of lparallel
2016-08-07T23:32:00Z phoe: I'll check it out. Thanks!
2016-08-07T23:33:13Z dim: anyway, it's way past time for me to go sleep, I just got back on the computer to fix a bug-by-omission, fun story, concludes days of work in a line of code, without it the days before failed short to fix the initial bug ;-)
2016-08-07T23:33:51Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/commit/53924fab0173c51fa5b6ee1fdf94855190afceb0 for details (and laugh it that's your kind of humour)
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