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2016-08-02T02:03:12Z akkad: no (nil?)? how do you safely test if a variable set in the letblock is nil?
2016-08-02T02:03:55Z akkad: ahh null
2016-08-02T02:05:32Z akkad: hmm
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2016-08-02T02:14:55Z cromachina: akkad: lisps often have generalized booleans, meaning if a value is not false or nil, then it's true
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2016-08-02T02:26:50Z loke: cromachina: Which is why NULL and NOT are actually the same function.
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2016-08-02T02:40:44Z PuercoPop: akkad: there is boundp but that works only in global environment
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2016-08-02T02:41:40Z PuercoPop: nvm
2016-08-02T02:41:42Z PuercoPop: missread
2016-08-02T02:42:06Z Zhivago: All variables established by a set are set.
2016-08-02T02:42:24Z Zhivago: er, established by a let.
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2016-08-02T03:16:58Z akkad: yeah testing for nil on a variable that is not set is an error
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2016-08-02T03:25:47Z jasom: akkad: (if (not x) ...) and (if (null x) ...) are equivalent; the only semantic difference is to the reader
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2016-08-02T03:48:53Z akkad: jasom: cl-user> (if (not fofff) (princ "hi"))
2016-08-02T03:48:54Z akkad: The variable fofff is unbound.
2016-08-02T03:48:54Z akkad:  
2016-08-02T03:49:24Z jasom: akkad: (if (null fofff) (princ "hi")) ; does the same thing
2016-08-02T03:49:33Z jasom: but if it's in a let, then it will be bound
2016-08-02T03:49:45Z akkad: so thought me too
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2016-08-02T04:11:42Z shifty: is there a simple way to silence output, like (let ((*standard-output* nil)) (format t "I can't hear you.")) ??
2016-08-02T04:12:48Z Bike: bind it to (make-broadcast-stream) i think
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2016-08-02T04:22:18Z shifty: binding *standard-output* to (make-string-output-string) "works", but I'd be interested to hear if this is an appropriate solution.
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2016-08-02T04:24:18Z Bike: well, that will keep information around, a broadcast stream will just dump everything immediately
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2016-08-02T04:42:04Z shifty: Bike: ok, thank you.
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2016-08-02T04:49:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-08-02T04:54:25Z pierpa: morning
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2016-08-02T05:00:08Z drmeister: Howdy
2016-08-02T05:00:49Z beach: drmeister: Oh, good that you are here.  I had a few questions for you with respect to your use of Cleavir.
2016-08-02T05:01:06Z beach: Let me check the code...
2016-08-02T05:01:25Z drmeister: Sure.
2016-08-02T05:01:32Z drmeister is getting ready to check his code...
2016-08-02T05:02:27Z drmeister: I've been off implementing a new build system based on 'waf' a build system written in Python - the language for those not quite ready for Lisp.
2016-08-02T05:02:36Z beach: Do you use the following primitive operations: #:fixnum-arithmetic #:fixnum-+ #:fixnum-- #:fixnum-< #:fixnum-<= #:fixnum-> #:fixnum->= #:fixnum-= ?
2016-08-02T05:02:36Z beach:  
2016-08-02T05:02:45Z beach: I would like to rename them.
2016-08-02T05:02:51Z drmeister: Checking...
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2016-08-02T05:04:22Z drmeister: I use:  #:fixnum-+ #:fixnum-- #:fixnum-< #:fixnum-<= #:fixnum-> #:fixnum->=
2016-08-02T05:04:35Z beach: Oh, OK.
2016-08-02T05:04:46Z drmeister: It would be trivial to change them
2016-08-02T05:04:47Z beach: I'll figure out a migration path then.
2016-08-02T05:04:52Z beach: Sure.
2016-08-02T05:05:01Z drmeister: It really would be trivial to change them.
2016-08-02T05:05:12Z beach: Let me first make sure there is a drop-in replacement.  I'll let you know.
2016-08-02T05:05:15Z beach: Thanks.
2016-08-02T05:05:16Z drmeister: So a migration path like: (1) change them (2) push changes   works for me.
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2016-08-02T05:05:32Z drmeister: I see.  Drop in changes are good - yes.
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2016-08-02T05:06:14Z drmeister: What would you change?  How overflow is handled?
2016-08-02T05:06:23Z beach: Just the name.
2016-08-02T05:06:41Z beach: The names are a pain for things like grep.
2016-08-02T05:07:27Z beach: So they will become fixnum-add, fixnum-sub, etc.
2016-08-02T05:08:09Z Bike: you don't like grepping fixnum\-\+, huh.
2016-08-02T05:08:29Z beach: I think there were other problems.  I just can't remember them now.
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2016-08-02T05:27:53Z jlarocco: does anybody know of an existing CL binding to Renderman?
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2016-08-02T05:33:08Z jlarocco: i started with Swig, but realized it's a lot more work than I want to spend on it to play around
2016-08-02T05:33:17Z jlarocco: but if somebody's already done the work...
2016-08-02T05:40:01Z pillton: jlarocco: Why don't you use lisp to generate the input to renderman?
2016-08-02T05:40:15Z pillton: We have IPC for a reason.
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2016-08-02T05:43:23Z jlarocco: i will probably end up doing that
2016-08-02T05:43:45Z jlarocco: I was hoping to avoid a lot of kind of boring work by having Swig generate everything
2016-08-02T05:44:51Z jlarocco: because even if I don't render with the API, it's possible to have the C API generate the bytestream files that the renderer uses as input
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2016-08-02T05:45:43Z jlarocco: or render directly as the scene is generated with API calls
2016-08-02T05:46:09Z jlarocco: but everything is binary structures and pointers, and the calling convention use variable arguments everywhere
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2016-08-02T05:46:45Z jlarocco: so I'm going to implement the parts I need, and have it generate the bytestream to a CL stream, I guess
2016-08-02T05:46:53Z jlarocco: and ignore the API
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2016-08-02T08:38:24Z Tordek: hi
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2016-08-02T08:54:19Z loke: Hello Lisp
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2016-08-02T08:55:27Z Munksgaard: Hi
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2016-08-02T09:31:43Z malice`: Hi! I've been making a stupid test of defstruct vs defclass (create an instance of "identical" structure with two fields), and created million instances of each, to test how it looks like. Both put in 'time macro.
2016-08-02T09:32:17Z malice`: I've noticed that creating CLOS classes took ~1/3 time more, and consed 2x as much as defstruct. Why is that? I was using SBCL
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2016-08-02T09:33:27Z jackdaniel: malice`: structs are simpler in terms of specification, so they may be optimized wrt various parts but they have also various limitations
2016-08-02T09:33:51Z jackdaniel: for instance you can't change a structure definition during the runtime if it's already defined
2016-08-02T09:33:58Z H4ns: malice`: also, clos instances have much more runtime information associated with them.
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2016-08-02T09:35:07Z jackdaniel: (by "you can't change" I mean that the implementation isn't mandated to do anything according the spec, it will probably work though)
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2016-08-02T09:35:33Z H4ns: it does not work often enough to be an annoyance if you're working repl based.
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2016-08-02T09:36:09Z jackdaniel: malice`: basically structure is either list or vector of fields with names
2016-08-02T09:36:12Z malice`: So is this post wrong? https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.lisp/fpEC_WubwGE/hWEUfgEhnmoJ
2016-08-02T09:36:47Z jackdaniel: why would it be wrong?
2016-08-02T09:36:48Z malice`: He said that it is conforming.
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2016-08-02T09:37:16Z jackdaniel: the "conforming" part is about the defclass
2016-08-02T09:37:28Z malice`: Oh, sorry. I thought you were referring to the fact that you can change defclass, not that you can't change defstruct.
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2016-08-02T09:37:46Z jackdaniel: it's one of the goodies defclass gives you
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2016-08-02T10:11:15Z John[Lisbeth]: I am reading gentle intro and I have encountered this syntax where you use the period character in order to make lists.
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2016-08-02T10:11:40Z John[Lisbeth]: I have tried doing something like ('a . 'b) but this does not seem to have the desired effect
2016-08-02T10:11:55Z pierpa: probably you want '(a . b)
2016-08-02T10:12:08Z John[Lisbeth]: let me test it out
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2016-08-02T10:12:58Z John[Lisbeth]: Why can't I (list (a . b)) ?
2016-08-02T10:13:36Z pierpa: because, in programs, open parentheses means function calls
2016-08-02T10:13:57Z John[Lisbeth]: Is it treating a as a function?
2016-08-02T10:13:58Z pierpa: and I assume you don't have a function called a
2016-08-02T10:14:35Z John[Lisbeth]: I've got to figure out how I can use the period character to build a list that when I evaluate it the output is in the (a b) format
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2016-08-02T10:15:06Z jdz: why do you think you need to use the dot?
2016-08-02T10:15:08Z pierpa: I'm sure the gentle introduction explain this
2016-08-02T10:15:24Z jdz: oh, it's an exercise
2016-08-02T10:15:25Z John[Lisbeth]: I've got to understand what the . does and why it is for
2016-08-02T10:15:44Z John[Lisbeth]: The problem is they use pseudocode when writing lists in gentle
2016-08-02T10:15:56Z pierpa: the dot does nothing. It is just syntax
2016-08-02T10:16:00Z John[Lisbeth]: they simply write a list as (a b c d) instead of (list 'a 'b 'c 'd)
2016-08-02T10:16:27Z pierpa: what's wrong with (a b c d)?
2016-08-02T10:16:43Z John[Lisbeth]: it gives me a compiler error
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2016-08-02T10:17:05Z pierpa: if you want data, then quote it
2016-08-02T10:17:18Z jdz: but when you type (list 'a 'b 'c 'd) i bet your lisp returns (a b c d), right?
2016-08-02T10:17:24Z John[Lisbeth]: yes
2016-08-02T10:17:37Z John[Lisbeth]: I need to return (a b) with the period
2016-08-02T10:17:42Z John[Lisbeth]: or else I don't understand what it does
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2016-08-02T10:17:53Z jdz: no, you need to read more carefully
2016-08-02T10:18:04Z jdz: and try to understand what you're reading
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2016-08-02T10:18:31Z John[Lisbeth]: pseudocode like (A B C . D) confuses me
2016-08-02T10:18:40Z jdz: that's not code
2016-08-02T10:19:36Z ovenpasta: John[Lisbeth]: you mean (cons 'a (cons 'b '())) => (a b)
2016-08-02T10:20:00Z aries_liuxueyang: Hello,
2016-08-02T10:20:03Z pierpa: they mean '(a . (b . nil))
2016-08-02T10:20:22Z John[Lisbeth]: I see. So the cons is sort of an unintelligent older function that does not automatically ad a nil
2016-08-02T10:20:33Z aries_liuxueyang: in REMOVE-DUPLICATES here: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_dup.htm, what is the :test function by default?
2016-08-02T10:20:42Z John[Lisbeth]: I understand now
2016-08-02T10:20:45Z John[Lisbeth]: more or less
2016-08-02T10:20:48Z pierpa: aries_liuxueyang: eql
2016-08-02T10:21:17Z aries_liuxueyang: In general, all functions which requires :test keyword is EQL by default?
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2016-08-02T10:21:45Z aries_liuxueyang: or some functions are special?
2016-08-02T10:23:16Z pierpa: I think so. Not sure, though.
2016-08-02T10:23:35Z jdz: clhs 17.2.1
2016-08-02T10:23:36Z specbot: Satisfying a Two-Argument Test: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/17_ba.htm
2016-08-02T10:25:04Z aries_liuxueyang: specbot: thank you so much. `If neither a :test nor a :test-not argument is supplied, it is as if a :test argument of #'eql was supplied.`
2016-08-02T10:25:33Z pierpa: they could have put a link in the function pages, though
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2016-08-02T10:26:50Z aries_liuxueyang: yeah.
2016-08-02T10:27:33Z jdz: i found it by clicking the "up arrow" twice
2016-08-02T10:27:51Z pierpa: still...
2016-08-02T10:28:04Z jdz: there's usually the "whatever dictionary" chapter, and general information chapters before that
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2016-08-02T10:28:23Z jdz: still, it's worth familiarising oneself with the structure of HyperSpec
2016-08-02T10:28:46Z pierpa: yeah, right
2016-08-02T10:28:56Z aries_liuxueyang: I'm not familar with the HyperSpec now. ;-(
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2016-08-02T10:35:08Z John[Lisbeth]: Now I am trying to do (A B C . #1#)
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2016-08-02T10:35:42Z John[Lisbeth]: Such that (nth 4 (A B C . #1#)) => A
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2016-08-02T10:37:37Z John[Lisbeth]: sorry nth 3
2016-08-02T10:37:41Z pierpa: you mean B
2016-08-02T10:37:47Z John[Lisbeth]: ^
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2016-08-02T10:37:55Z pierpa: then ok
2016-08-02T10:39:54Z John[Lisbeth]: The way my brain wants to write it is (nth 3 (cons 'a (cons 'b #1#)))
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2016-08-02T10:40:40Z pierpa: #1# is a label that you must define before you use it
2016-08-02T10:40:55Z John[Lisbeth]: How can I define it?
2016-08-02T10:41:21Z pierpa: the place where you read about #1# should explain how to use it, no?
2016-08-02T10:41:42Z John[Lisbeth]: I tried running that but it seemed to run forever without printing anything so I c-c c-c in emacs
2016-08-02T10:41:46Z John[Lisbeth]: then I get an error
2016-08-02T10:42:00Z pierpa: #1=(a b . #1#)
2016-08-02T10:42:50Z pierpa: do a (setq *print-citcle* t)  before you try that
2016-08-02T10:42:53Z John[Lisbeth]: What confuses me about that syntax is I can't run (nth 3 (#1=(a b . #1#)))
2016-08-02T10:42:58Z pierpa: *print-circle*
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2016-08-02T10:43:48Z John[Lisbeth]: set
2016-08-02T10:44:06Z pierpa: you should clear up more basic things before playing with circular data structures
2016-08-02T10:44:16Z John[Lisbeth]: It is the next thing to learn in gentle
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2016-08-02T10:44:55Z pierpa: then you didn't get the previous ones
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2016-08-02T10:47:41Z John[Lisbeth]: I'm not sure that's the case. I have a file where I have running examples of each of the previous examples in the book
2016-08-02T10:47:57Z John[Lisbeth]: I just don't understand this new hash syntax
2016-08-02T10:48:09Z John[Lisbeth]: or why I am using the = symbol
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2016-08-02T10:50:45Z John[Lisbeth]: In my mind the way it should be done is with a function or a macro using polish notation
2016-08-02T10:51:21Z pierpa: uh?
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2016-08-02T10:52:01Z John[Lisbeth]: In haskell there is some function (I think called repeat or cycle) where you can just give it a list and it will do the same thing as this fancy hash syntax
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2016-08-02T10:52:43Z pierpa: you can write the same function in cl
2016-08-02T10:53:19Z John[Lisbeth]: Does that function already exist?
2016-08-02T10:53:38Z pierpa: all functions exist :)
2016-08-02T10:53:48Z John[Lisbeth]: *many
2016-08-02T10:54:05Z John[Lisbeth]: I suppose I should ask if it is implemented what is it called
2016-08-02T10:54:08Z pierpa: all of them. the one you want is (defun cycle (list) (setf (cdr (last list)) list))
2016-08-02T10:54:35Z John[Lisbeth]: what does setf do?
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2016-08-02T10:55:22Z pierpa: use this one then: (defun cycle (list) (rplacd (last list) list))
2016-08-02T10:55:36Z jdz: what does rplacd do?
2016-08-02T10:55:38Z ggole: Haskell's cycle is different because haskell values are not mutable
2016-08-02T10:56:04Z ggole: In Lisp, you just mutate away - very straightforward
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2016-08-02T10:59:41Z John[Lisbeth]: (cycle (list 'A 'B 'C)) => #1=(A B C . #1#). (nth 3 (cycle (list 'A 'B 'C))) => A. (nth 3 (#1=(A B C . #1#))) => compiler error
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2016-08-02T11:00:46Z pierpa: see?  that's what I mean when I told you you should go back and learn the basics first
2016-08-02T11:01:00Z John[Lisbeth]: I have covered the previous material in gentle introduction
2016-08-02T11:01:13Z pierpa: no
2016-08-02T11:01:18Z John[Lisbeth]: orly?
2016-08-02T11:01:49Z John[Lisbeth]: I typed ctrl + f # RET in my pdf reader
2016-08-02T11:02:13Z John[Lisbeth]: The first instance is when gentle introduces #1=(A B C . #1#)
2016-08-02T11:02:20Z John[Lisbeth]: there are no previous instances explaining what it means
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2016-08-02T11:02:46Z pierpa: if input to your compiler (a b c)  wht it does?
2016-08-02T11:02:52Z John[Lisbeth]: error
2016-08-02T11:03:05Z pierpa: do you understand why?
2016-08-02T11:03:15Z John[Lisbeth]: It is not valid list syntax
2016-08-02T11:03:45Z pierpa: why do you expect (#1=(a b)) to be valid?
2016-08-02T11:04:03Z John[Lisbeth]: Because that is how it would need to work to be homoiconic in my mind
2016-08-02T11:04:04Z pierpa: btw, it is perfectly valid list syntax
2016-08-02T11:04:19Z pierpa: lunch time. later.
2016-08-02T11:05:15Z jdz: if only code would change it's semantics by wishful thinking of people...
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2016-08-02T11:10:58Z ggole: John[Lisbeth]: if you want to use the output of the reader as a constant list, you typically have to quote
2016-08-02T11:11:22Z ggole: Figure out how to do that with the cycle syntax and you should be able to progress.
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2016-08-02T11:14:00Z John[Lisbeth]: Do you mean (quote #1=(A B C . #1#)) ?
2016-08-02T11:14:29Z malice`: John[Lisbeth]: When you got s-expression, the first thing should be a symbol that translates to function, macro or special operator. (#1=(A B C . #1#)) shouldn't work because it is not a call to a function, macro or special operator
2016-08-02T11:14:41Z malice`: I am referring to your previous mesage, not the one above.
2016-08-02T11:15:31Z malice`: (#1=(A B . #1#)) would not work in the same way ("johhny") would not work
2016-08-02T11:15:45Z malice`: Try putting what you just posted(the quote thing) into your REPL
2016-08-02T11:16:27Z malice`: (btw. (quote thing) and 'thing bear the same meaning)
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2016-08-02T11:20:16Z John[Lisbeth]: What confuses me is that I can pass (cycle (list 'a 'b 'c)) into nth, but I can't pass #1=(A B C . #1#) into nth
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2016-08-02T11:20:29Z John[Lisbeth]: so I need some function that can accept #1(A B C . #1#)
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2016-08-02T11:21:26Z malice`: John[Lisbeth]: you can
2016-08-02T11:21:46Z John[Lisbeth]: It's a useeless piece of syntax to me if I don't know how to pass it into something
2016-08-02T11:21:50Z malice`: How would you pass (list 'a 'b 'c) in raw form, without creating it from scratch, to nth?
2016-08-02T11:21:54Z jackdaniel: John[Lisbeth]: learn the basics (by reading), then tinker with egzotic stuff like that, not the other way around
2016-08-02T11:22:25Z John[Lisbeth]: There are no previous entries explaining the # syntax
2016-08-02T11:22:33Z malice`: John[Lisbeth]: this is irrelevant.
2016-08-02T11:22:43Z John[Lisbeth]: I will skip this section then
2016-08-02T11:22:46Z malice`: How would you pass result of (list 'a 'b 'c) into nth?
2016-08-02T11:22:57Z malice`: (A B C)
2016-08-02T11:23:02Z malice`: how would you pass that to nth?
2016-08-02T11:23:10Z John[Lisbeth]: good question
2016-08-02T11:23:16Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't know
2016-08-02T11:23:32Z malice`: In the same way as you would pass #1=(A B C . #1#)
2016-08-02T11:23:42Z John[Lisbeth]: Well I can write (nth 2 (quote (A B C)))
2016-08-02T11:23:51Z malice`: try the same with circular list
2016-08-02T11:23:58Z John[Lisbeth]: but I can't write (nth 2 (quote #1=(A B C . #1#)))
2016-08-02T11:24:17Z malice`: Why not?
2016-08-02T11:24:29Z John[Lisbeth]: Maybe I had a typo the last time I tried it
2016-08-02T11:24:41Z John[Lisbeth]: works now
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2016-08-02T11:24:42Z John[Lisbeth]: ty
2016-08-02T11:24:53Z malice`: Lisp is consistent in its syntax
2016-08-02T11:24:58Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't disagree
2016-08-02T11:25:09Z John[Lisbeth]: But I still have to have evidence for that even though I know it to be true
2016-08-02T11:25:13Z malice`: It's (common lisp) sometimes inconsistent in the order of argument passing
2016-08-02T11:25:23Z malice`: but that's other story
2016-08-02T11:25:30Z malice`: And as I said, you can use ' instead of quote
2016-08-02T11:25:38Z malice`: '(A B C) = (quote (A B C)
2016-08-02T11:25:39Z John[Lisbeth]: I choose to use polish notation
2016-08-02T11:25:45Z malice`: ?
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2016-08-02T11:26:01Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't like special syntax. I like things to be very very regular
2016-08-02T11:26:25Z malice`: What are you referring to right now?
2016-08-02T11:26:26Z John[Lisbeth]: The reason I am learning gentle intro to lisp is so I can take regular lisp syntax from the hyperspec and transform it into polish notation in my head
2016-08-02T11:26:45Z John[Lisbeth]: '(1 2 3) => (quote 1 2 3)
2016-08-02T11:26:57Z John[Lisbeth]: #'not => (function not)
2016-08-02T11:27:42Z malice`: Yes, these are equal.
2016-08-02T11:27:56Z John[Lisbeth]: In my style I would use the forms on the right and not the left
2016-08-02T11:28:10Z John[Lisbeth]: unless I was using a domain specific language
2016-08-02T11:28:37Z malice`: It comes down to your preference. I prefer #' as it's much shorter and as readable, but some people use (function ...) or (quote ...). it doesn't really matter.
2016-08-02T11:28:48Z John[Lisbeth]: true
2016-08-02T11:28:54Z malice`: Anyway, Lisp isn't really about polish notation, and some things are better without it
2016-08-02T11:29:10Z John[Lisbeth]: Thats what I think domain specific languages are for
2016-08-02T11:29:20Z malice`: I guess that most of us like lisp because of its power, not because of the overwhelming amount of parenthesis :)
2016-08-02T11:29:29Z John[Lisbeth]: I love parentheses
2016-08-02T11:29:35Z John[Lisbeth]: I quit haskell because I wanted more parentheses
2016-08-02T11:29:42Z John[Lisbeth]: I think ((((((1)))))) should => 1
2016-08-02T11:29:56Z malice`: It doesn't work that way
2016-08-02T11:30:05Z John[Lisbeth]: I may be naive in that belief
2016-08-02T11:30:05Z malice`: Parentheses are there to represent some structure, not obfuscate code
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2016-08-02T11:30:16Z malice`: But you will se this by yourself. Glad I could help you.
2016-08-02T11:30:23Z John[Lisbeth]: thanks
2016-08-02T11:31:26Z Zhivago: malice: You may be optimistic.
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2016-08-02T14:23:41Z phoe: John[Lisbeth]: read about the evaluation rule in Common Lisp
2016-08-02T14:24:30Z phoe: also, when you evaluate a list in Common Lisp, integers cannot be bound to functions.
2016-08-02T14:25:21Z phoe: They aren't symbols.
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2016-08-02T14:26:23Z phoe: Therefore evaluating (1) would mean calling a function 1, which does not make sense in Common Lisp and results in an error.
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2016-08-02T14:27:00Z Grue``: well, that is certainly the case with one, but with, say, 9? Not necessarily.
2016-08-02T14:27:14Z phoe: Grue``: what do you mean? (eval '
2016-08-02T14:27:16Z Grue``: because radix of the reader might be set to less than 10
2016-08-02T14:27:21Z phoe: (eval '(9)) is an error as well.
2016-08-02T14:27:35Z Grue``: yeah, but you're reading in base 10
2016-08-02T14:27:54Z Grue``: in base 8, 9 is a great symbol name ;)
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2016-08-02T14:28:06Z phoe: Heh, I see. I don't think Lisp is base-8 by default though.
2016-08-02T14:28:10Z phoe: Or anything other than base-10.
2016-08-02T14:28:16Z Grue``: that can be configured
2016-08-02T14:28:31Z phoe: You *do* have functionalities like *READ-BASE* to tweak this.
2016-08-02T14:29:15Z jdz: what do you mean -- base 8 is not the default?
2016-08-02T14:29:16Z jdz: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/Ambitious.html
2016-08-02T14:29:18Z Grue``: my point exactly
2016-08-02T14:29:26Z Grue``: clhs *read-base*
2016-08-02T14:29:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_rd_bas.htm
2016-08-02T14:29:36Z phoe: But this doesn't mean that (let ((*read-base* 2)) (3)) will ever succeed.
2016-08-02T14:29:42Z phoe: jdz: I've read that one.
2016-08-02T14:29:49Z phoe: It's all about timing basically.
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2016-08-02T14:30:05Z phoe: This stuff is read and number parsing occurs before *READ-BASE* is bound.
2016-08-02T14:30:26Z phoe: You'd need to (let ((*read-base* 8)) (read-from-string "10")) or something.
2016-08-02T14:30:37Z phoe: Oh yes, that works.
2016-08-02T14:31:00Z Grue``: or (setf *read-base* 8) in your .sbclrc
2016-08-02T14:31:19Z phoe: Grue``: a pretty great way to confuse everyone, including yourself.
2016-08-02T14:31:24Z jdz: i might got the wrong article though... there was another one, describing how in the "old days" one would have to type 10. instead of just 10 to get a decimal 10 because the default read base was 8...
2016-08-02T14:32:16Z phoe: jdz: wow. I don't know that one.
2016-08-02T14:32:59Z Grue``: there are some languages where if you start your number with 0, it is read in base 8
2016-08-02T14:33:14Z phoe: Grue``: C
2016-08-02T14:33:16Z jdz: it might also be the case that this is the article, and my memory is inventing things as it goes
2016-08-02T14:33:18Z phoe: as a good example
2016-08-02T14:33:38Z phoe: there was this fun thing where people were hardcoding zipcodes in C
2016-08-02T14:33:42Z jdz: shells do that as well
2016-08-02T14:33:49Z phoe: and there were 27831, 20999, 01843, 74682 and alike
2016-08-02T14:33:49Z jdz: i think
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2016-08-02T14:34:13Z phoe: with the third one blowing things up because it was interpreted in octal.
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2016-08-02T14:35:05Z jdz: nah, scratch the shells
2016-08-02T14:35:56Z phoe: John[Lisbeth]: summing up, two things. First, numbers *cannot* be fbound. Second, evaluating *any* S-expression that starts with "(((" in Common Lisp is an illegal function call.*
2016-08-02T14:36:04Z phoe: *I actually dare to make that statement.
2016-08-02T14:37:43Z jackdaniel: (defun |3| () 'hueh)
2016-08-02T14:38:15Z phoe: jackdaniel: (symbolp '|3|) ;=> T
2016-08-02T14:38:17Z phoe: ,he
2016-08-02T14:38:19Z phoe: ,hue
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2016-08-02T14:40:02Z malice`: damn it
2016-08-02T14:40:04Z malice`: I was close
2016-08-02T14:40:28Z malice`: ((lambda (x) (+ x x) 1) => 2
2016-08-02T14:40:42Z malice`: but (((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y)) 1) 2) => error
2016-08-02T14:40:43Z malice`: :(
2016-08-02T14:40:47Z phoe: malice`: :D
2016-08-02T14:40:57Z John[Lisbeth]: I'll get it eventually. Its just going to take me longer than the aerage lisp programmer because for the average lisp programmer lisp was not their first language
2016-08-02T14:41:08Z phoe: John[Lisbeth]: nah, I don't think so
2016-08-02T14:41:19Z John[Lisbeth]: So most lisp programmers begin by learning lisp then learn other languages?
2016-08-02T14:41:20Z malice`: but I hope I'll get there somehow
2016-08-02T14:41:22Z phoe: might take longer, might take shorter, I don't know and cannot say anything for sure
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2016-08-02T14:41:43Z phoe: John[Lisbeth]: Lisp isn't a very popular language at corporations/schools/universities/wherever they teach programming
2016-08-02T14:41:59Z John[Lisbeth]: yeah everybody gushes over the c based languages
2016-08-02T14:42:01Z phoe: so the majority of people gets introduced to some variant of PyJ++
2016-08-02T14:42:04Z dlowe: My ad hoc observation is that lisp is considerably easier to teach to people who never programmed before.
2016-08-02T14:42:13Z dlowe: Just because there's a lot less to learn
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2016-08-02T14:42:18Z phoe: dlowe: I agree on that one actually.
2016-08-02T14:42:26Z John[Lisbeth]: You can teach people lisp syntax just by showin them algebra calculations
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2016-08-02T14:42:31Z phoe: Touretzky's "Gentle (...)" does a wonderful job at that
2016-08-02T14:42:34Z dlowe: well, it's not just theory, I've taught people
2016-08-02T14:42:54Z John[Lisbeth]: I have tried to teach people programming too and I have alot easier time with lisp than with something like C++ or bash
2016-08-02T14:43:12Z John[Lisbeth]: People who know algebra at least pick up on it quickly
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2016-08-02T14:43:43Z phoe: John[Lisbeth]: :D
2016-08-02T14:43:51Z John[Lisbeth]: I think we need a learn you a haskell for common lisp
2016-08-02T14:44:27Z phoe: John[Lisbeth]: actually, the Lisp shown in The Roots Of Lisp does implement a basic form of a lambda calculus
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2016-08-02T14:44:40Z phoe: and Haskell is an implementation of typed lambda calculus at its core.
2016-08-02T14:44:56Z John[Lisbeth]: I never read learn you a haskell all the way through because I discovered half way along it was not lisp
2016-08-02T14:45:04Z John[Lisbeth]: but then I found lisp and I was fine
2016-08-02T14:45:27Z phoe: John[Lisbeth]: IMO learning Haskell is completely fine nonetheless. It does have a few head-blowing moments just like Lisp during learning.
2016-08-02T14:45:51Z John[Lisbeth]: I think lisp still has some surprises for me even if I know functional programming. Supposedly macros and s expressions are the bees knees
2016-08-02T14:45:54Z phoe: It was amusing to write a basicmost Lisp interpreter in Haskell, too, just to get the idea of how to work with purely functional languages.
2016-08-02T14:46:19Z jdz: John[Lisbeth]: are you saying Lisp is your first programming language?
2016-08-02T14:46:41Z John[Lisbeth]: technically. I have been using linux for six years though and have installed arch and learned emacs and things
2016-08-02T14:46:52Z John[Lisbeth]: I never learned any langauge all the way through because in short I discovered it was not lisp
2016-08-02T14:47:01Z oleo: heh
2016-08-02T14:47:04Z jdz: and are you also saying you're teaching programming to other people?
2016-08-02T14:47:11Z John[Lisbeth]: Yeah
2016-08-02T14:47:21Z John[Lisbeth]: Just the very basics
2016-08-02T14:48:01Z John[Lisbeth]: It's hard for people to imagine that I know programming when I never learned a language all the way through but I can say beyond a doubt I know the concept of programming well
2016-08-02T14:48:06Z phoe: Haskell is like a diamond in this case. It's there, it's pure, it's shiny, it's perfect, but you cannot add anything to it because it'll stick out as something that doesn't suit it very well.
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2016-08-02T14:48:36Z phoe: And Lisp is like a ball of mud. You slice it open, it's mud inside, and you can shape it all the way into your favorite and most suiting form. You can even add more mud to it, and well, it's still mud.
2016-08-02T14:48:41Z John[Lisbeth]: If haskell can achieve lispness with their rigid type system I will give a dang about haskell
2016-08-02T14:49:18Z John[Lisbeth]: You coud make a rigid type sytem in lisp from what I understood, but as soon as you left that environment that you created you would lose your typechecking
2016-08-02T14:49:48Z John[Lisbeth]: so I see haskell as a subset of what lisp can do
2016-08-02T14:49:57Z phoe: Haskell requires homoiconicity in order to become a Lisp. You might want to look at Shen.
2016-08-02T14:50:14Z John[Lisbeth]: Shen is nice but I feel like we need to band together thus common lisp
2016-08-02T14:50:29Z John[Lisbeth]: also I think imperative programming should not be ignored
2016-08-02T14:50:38Z phoe: John[Lisbeth]: well, CL can't be Haskell and Haskell can't be CL.
2016-08-02T14:50:58Z John[Lisbeth]: CL can't be exactly haskell but you coud make optomizations and tradeoffs in order to get alot of the main benefits of haksell
2016-08-02T14:51:12Z John[Lisbeth]: whereas haskell can't nearly do waht lisp can do
2016-08-02T14:51:19Z John[Lisbeth]: aside from bootstrapping lisp
2016-08-02T14:51:55Z John[Lisbeth]: And I feel after using haskell that although there are few wats, it's complex syntax makes it feel not very homoiconic
2016-08-02T14:52:10Z phoe: Not so complex.
2016-08-02T14:52:18Z John[Lisbeth]: Maybe to a seasoned programmer
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2016-08-02T14:52:58Z phoe: All you have there is either declaring types or telling what a function does by means of examples and conjoining more functions. And pattern matching which is already common in Lisps.
2016-08-02T14:52:59Z John[Lisbeth]: I am slowly thinking about what toy lisp I am going to make, and I am going to take common lisp I think and rip out alot of the extra syntax
2016-08-02T14:53:36Z John[Lisbeth]: I think haskell is realy along the same vein as perl as are all non-lisps
2016-08-02T14:53:42Z John[Lisbeth]: very ugly languages
2016-08-02T14:53:42Z jdz: phoe: pattern matching is common in Lisps?
2016-08-02T14:53:59Z John[Lisbeth]: you can just have a function that takes two strings. One for the pattern match and one to apply the pattern to
2016-08-02T14:54:28Z phoe: jdz: I mean these syntax macros where you can define the outcome by comparing the input to a set of cases.
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2016-08-02T14:54:46Z phoe: I saw them around a few times, they're much more popular in Scheme than in CL which doesn't mean CL can't do it.
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2016-08-02T14:55:25Z John[Lisbeth]: CL could do pretty much anything scheme or shen could do and visa versa if you added it to scheme/shen yourself
2016-08-02T14:55:42Z phoe: Also CL does implement a subset of it if you decide that you want to (ab)use CLOS's specialization.
2016-08-02T14:56:43Z phoe: But that's fairly dirty and not too easy now that I think of it.
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2016-08-02T15:02:18Z John[Lisbeth]: What is so great about common lisp is that there are certain problems which are problems in other langauges that are not problems in lisp, and anyone in here who knows lisp can sort of agree on certain things.
2016-08-02T15:02:24Z John[Lisbeth]: So there's alot less bickering in this channel
2016-08-02T15:02:46Z John[Lisbeth]: We kind of all know internaly the magic of lisp but can not voice it to someone who does not know lisp
2016-08-02T15:03:37Z John[Lisbeth]: moreover common lisp people tend to believe in the power of community and open source, and that fragmentation of languages is a problem
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2016-08-02T15:04:53Z jdz: John[Lisbeth]: you don't even know the basic evaluation rules of lisp -- what are you talking about?
2016-08-02T15:05:08Z John[Lisbeth]: I take it you do not feel the same way?
2016-08-02T15:05:59Z jdz: John[Lisbeth]: what is this "magic of lisp" you're talking about?
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2016-08-02T15:06:23Z John[Lisbeth]: I can't explain what it is, but internally I know lisp is the most correct way of doing programming I have come accross.
2016-08-02T15:06:39Z John[Lisbeth]: I think it is because of lambda calculus but I am not sure
2016-08-02T15:06:43Z jdz: yet you can't write the simplest of lisp programs...
2016-08-02T15:06:52Z John[Lisbeth]: That's a little bit of a stretch
2016-08-02T15:07:31Z jdz: lisp has nothing to do with lambda calculus
2016-08-02T15:07:37Z John[Lisbeth]: everything is relative
2016-08-02T15:08:12Z John[Lisbeth]: barack obama is relative to my left toenail
2016-08-02T15:08:20Z Grue``: the most correct way of programming is the one that yields working code
2016-08-02T15:08:31Z John[Lisbeth]: arguably
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2016-08-02T15:09:41Z John[Lisbeth]: I simply did not find other languages worth writing working code in.
2016-08-02T15:09:53Z John[Lisbeth]: If I had found lisp six years ago I would have learned lisp all the way through then
2016-08-02T15:10:10Z jdz: you have a chance to do in now, though!
2016-08-02T15:10:19Z John[Lisbeth]: What do you think I'm doing right now?
2016-08-02T15:10:30Z jdz: you're spouting nonsense and not learning anything
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2016-08-02T15:10:45Z Grue``: knowing at least one programming language helps A LOT though
2016-08-02T15:10:48Z John[Lisbeth]: "not learning anything"
2016-08-02T15:10:55Z Grue``: when learning Lisp, or whatever
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2016-08-02T15:11:16Z John[Lisbeth]: That is what I was saying ealier. Most people who discover lisp it was not their first language
2016-08-02T15:11:38Z jdz: Which has nothing to do with you learning it.
2016-08-02T15:11:49Z John[Lisbeth]: Do you understand the theory of relativity?
2016-08-02T15:11:54Z John[Lisbeth]: at least in synopsis?
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2016-08-02T15:12:08Z Grue``: there's no reason for CL to be somebody's first language. it's kind of hard to get into.
2016-08-02T15:12:14Z jdz: My understanding of theory of relativity has nothing to do with you learning lisp.
2016-08-02T15:12:31Z Urchin: there are some who did have lisp as their first programming language, but that's rare
2016-08-02T15:12:34Z John[Lisbeth]: WHen you say "has nothing to do with" in a sentence, I know your sentence is probably invalid
2016-08-02T15:12:59Z jdz: Yes, and that is off-topic.
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2016-08-02T15:13:03Z Grue``: most of programming techniques are applicable in all languages
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2016-08-02T15:13:17Z jdz: John[Lisbeth]: do you have any more lisp questions we can help you with?
2016-08-02T15:13:19Z John[Lisbeth]: ok so stop attacking me then lets just call the dead horse beat
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2016-08-02T15:24:27Z jfrancis: I find myself doing this a lot:  (remove nil (map 'list (lambda (n) (if (foo n) n nil)) *list-of-stuff*)).  Is that the "right" way to do that?  Is there a better/cleaner/canonical way to do it?
2016-08-02T15:24:46Z dlowe: don't put nils in your list.
2016-08-02T15:24:52Z dlowe: use mapcan
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2016-08-02T15:25:18Z jfrancis: Ah.  Thanks!
2016-08-02T15:25:29Z dlowe: with mapcan, your function returns a list that is appended to the result, so you can return an empty list and nothing will be appended
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2016-08-02T15:25:51Z dlowe: see also: undescriptive, undiscoverable names in CL
2016-08-02T15:25:58Z jfrancis: heh heh
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2016-08-02T15:29:47Z jdz: there's also MAPCAR
2016-08-02T15:30:29Z jdz: (to use instead of (map 'list function a-list))
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2016-08-02T15:31:32Z jdz: and then there's always LOOP: (loop for n in *list-of-stuff* if (foo n) collect n)
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2016-08-02T15:36:00Z Grue``: jfrancis: isn't it just (remove-if-not 'foo *list-of-stuff*) ?
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2016-08-02T15:42:04Z jfrancis: I didn't think of remove-if-not. Has anybody ever noticed (rhetorical, obviously) there are almost too many ways to skin the cat with CL?
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2016-08-02T15:43:40Z Grue``: well, there's one function that does exactly what you want, and a bunch of more general ways to do the same thing
2016-08-02T15:44:25Z jfrancis: I originally started poking at Lisp in the late 80s. And I still learn something new every time I touch it.
2016-08-02T15:45:30Z malice`: I think that it's only natural that you have several ways to do something in a language, e.g. your example.
2016-08-02T15:46:09Z malice`: The moment you start enforcing something, you either cut off some abstractions or try to tell people that some abstractions are better than other(and therefore usually try to make other abstractions harder to use)
2016-08-02T15:46:39Z malice`: "There's only one way to do it" is a really bad idea imho
2016-08-02T15:47:19Z malice`: Thus I don't really like python /rant
2016-08-02T15:47:39Z Grue``: in python there are also many ways to do it though
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2016-08-02T15:50:00Z malice`: Grue``: https://wiki.python.org/moin/TOOWTDI
2016-08-02T15:50:30Z malice`: This is what I'm talking about. Of course you've got more ways to do some things - it's really hard to make "only one way to do something" really work.
2016-08-02T15:50:39Z malice`: But the very idea behind it is imho bad
2016-08-02T15:51:15Z malice`: and some things are just wrong in Python
2016-08-02T15:51:29Z malice`: there's like one way to do it, and this way stinks too
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2016-08-02T15:54:21Z Grue``: malice`: I'm actually a Python programmer too. in practice this rule is not followed, at all. like, there are several ways to format a string versus one FORMAT in CL. there are two different class systems versus one CLOS. and so on.
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2016-08-02T15:55:23Z malice`: I noticed that myself. Nevertheless the more I write in Python, the more I dislike it (although I mostly do Python2.7, and Python3 improves a lot of things; yet I still don't like it)
2016-08-02T15:56:53Z rudolfochrist: What's the testing library du jour in CL. I'm currently using 1am and thinking about switching.....
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2016-08-02T15:57:25Z malice`: e.g. I asked something about for on Python irc channel, and people were surprised that the behaviour didn't satisfy me, and only one person agreed that this is indeed something bad
2016-08-02T15:57:36Z jdz: rudolfochrist: why are you thinking of switching?
2016-08-02T15:58:32Z rudolfochrist: jdz: 1am does'tn show me my expectations. Just that on check failed.
2016-08-02T15:58:40Z jdz: malice`: do you want to know what happens when you come in here and say LOOP sucks?
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2016-08-02T15:59:03Z dlowe: nothing. LOOP continues to exist in CL.
2016-08-02T15:59:31Z rudolfochrist: jdz: What I like would be to see something like: "You wanted result to be 3 but is 5" etc.
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2016-08-02T16:00:08Z Grue``: rudolfochrist: I'd be surprised if any testing library cannot do this
2016-08-02T16:00:12Z jdz: rudolfochrist: i bet most testing libraries just output a dot on a successful test, but that might be configurable using verbosity setting.  i have not used 1am myself.  and i have not written any lisp code (that uses tests) in ages.
2016-08-02T16:00:54Z malice`: jdz: Actually I do.
2016-08-02T16:00:54Z jdz: rudolfochrist: also, i misunderstood your expectation...
2016-08-02T16:01:30Z jdz: malice`: you'll have to create a fake account and try it out, then.
2016-08-02T16:01:44Z malice`: :D
2016-08-02T16:01:45Z Grue``: in particular, I'm using lisp-unit and it definitely does. Though you need to specifically do (print-failures result) to show the failed asserts
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2016-08-02T16:01:56Z phoe: rudolfochrist: 1am is too tiny for that
2016-08-02T16:02:08Z phoe: but you do can go (is (= 3 (some-sexp-here)))
2016-08-02T16:02:19Z phoe: and it will tell you that assertion (= 3 sdklkfsdlf) failed
2016-08-02T16:02:22Z rudolfochrist: jdz: No I think not. But 1am leaves one in the debugger. But I think this is intentionally because it aims for speed and multi threding support (if I remember correctly).
2016-08-02T16:02:34Z phoe: and yes, it does leave one in the debugger.
2016-08-02T16:02:52Z rudolfochrist: phoe: Yes
2016-08-02T16:03:18Z rudolfochrist: Amnyway, that's why I'm thinking about switching.
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2016-08-02T16:05:11Z phoe: rudolfochrist: or you could easily extend 1am with something like (expect (car x) to equal 5)
2016-08-02T16:05:18Z rudolfochrist: Prove looks kinda cool and it has TAP (not something I terribly need, but yeah)
2016-08-02T16:05:40Z phoe: which evaluates (funcall #'equal (car x) 5) with a proper assertion
2016-08-02T16:06:22Z rudolfochrist: phoe: and then? Do I get the value of (car x) in the debugger?
2016-08-02T16:07:04Z rudolfochrist: That's the point that I dislike, currently.
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2016-08-02T17:01:50Z phoe: rudolfochrist: uhh, actually
2016-08-02T17:01:59Z phoe: depends on the stuff you write
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2016-08-02T17:02:13Z phoe: you might land in the debugger, you might get it as STDOUT output
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2016-08-02T17:11:09Z phoe: depends on how you want to log it.
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2016-08-02T17:53:45Z PuercoPop: rudolfochrist: the du jour is prove. But I'd check fiasco and lisp-unit2 before settling for one. (There is also some WIP integration between prove and quickcheck here https://github.com/Inaimathi/test-utils)
2016-08-02T17:54:12Z PuercoPop: (I mostly use prove because there is not much to type to get testing)
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2016-08-02T19:45:03Z rpg: If I'm programming a new pprint-dispatch table, should I define it with DEFPARAMETER, but add an EVAL-WHEN that covers COMPILE-TIME? Don't I need to do this so that the SET-PPRINT-DISPATCH has the right semantics at compile time?
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2016-08-02T19:49:31Z Bike: are you calling set-pprint-dispatch at compile time?
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2016-08-02T19:54:03Z rpg: Bike: I believe it has compile time semantics also, if I call it at the top-level, right?
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2016-08-02T19:57:29Z Bike: no, it's just a function
2016-08-02T19:57:50Z Bike: like proclaim
2016-08-02T19:58:20Z rpg: but doesn't PROCLAIM have compile time semantics?
2016-08-02T19:58:24Z Bike: it does not
2016-08-02T19:58:26Z Bike: clhs proclaim
2016-08-02T19:58:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_procla.htm
2016-08-02T19:58:47Z Bike: you only need it at compile time if you're printing things at compile time, which is a bit unusual (i guess it might be useful if you expected compile time errors with your objects)
2016-08-02T19:58:52Z Bike: need set-pprint-dispatch that is
2016-08-02T19:59:26Z Bike: if an operator has compile time semantics there will be something in the clhs page like "If a [whatever] form appears as a top level form, the compiler must"
2016-08-02T20:00:59Z Bike: like deftype or defclass. i don't think any function has compile semantics, which is good because it means the compiler only needs to worry about special operators and macros that expand into eval-when forms
2016-08-02T20:01:10Z rpg: right. OK, so no worries.
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2016-08-02T21:31:05Z discardedes: can anybody read this?
2016-08-02T21:32:17Z Bike: sure.
2016-08-02T21:32:27Z discardedes: ok
2016-08-02T21:32:35Z discardedes: last nick didnt work on this channel
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2016-08-02T21:44:01Z phoe: discardedes: we see you
2016-08-02T21:44:33Z discardedes: ok.... i used to use the name adam789654123, and mysteriously that nick never worked on this channel
2016-08-02T21:44:53Z discardedes: but im glad its fixed now
2016-08-02T21:45:14Z discardedes: maybe something in the config that filtered the numbers or something? idk
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2016-08-02T23:37:33Z jasom: let me check
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2016-08-02T23:39:25Z Josh3 is now known as Josh2
2016-08-02T23:40:14Z jasom: banlist doesn't seem to show anything reflecting that; at one point any nickname with the penultimate character of 2 was banned though, so perhaps adam789654123 will work now
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2016-08-02T23:44:06Z jasom: *2?!*@* quieted by orwell.freenode.net on Wed, 15 Jun 2016 22:57:56 <-- still in quiet list
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2016-08-02T23:47:44Z pillton: Does ASDF have hooks to allow for operations to be performed before and after loading a system? e.g. After loading system X, call this function in order to configure X according to my local configuration.
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