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2016-08-01T00:09:49Z pillton: pjb: Do you know why parse-macro in cltl2 accepts an environment argument?
2016-08-01T00:12:17Z pjb: pillton: it's so it can be used inside macros.
2016-08-01T00:13:18Z pillton: But the lambda form returned by parse macro will be evaluated inside the same lexical environment.
2016-08-01T00:13:59Z pjb: yes, but the interpretation of the arguments to parse-macro will depend on the environment.
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2016-08-01T00:20:51Z Bike: the generic answer is not helpful. the question is in what way the arguments are interpreted differently depending on the environment
2016-08-01T00:21:17Z pjb: Anyways, parse-macro is not useful, since we have destructuring-bind in CL.
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2016-08-01T00:22:50Z pillton: destructuring-bind doesn't support &environment.
2016-08-01T00:23:03Z pjb: Because it doesn't need to, since it doesn't process a body.
2016-08-01T00:23:29Z pjb: parse-macro returns a lambda.  So it has to "extract" the body argument from its environment (in the case of macrolet).
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2016-08-01T00:24:01Z pjb: It needs to minimaly-compile the body argument, and for this it needs the environment in which to expand the macro calls.
2016-08-01T00:24:30Z pillton: Parse macro returns a lambda expression.
2016-08-01T00:24:40Z pillton: It shouldn't need to minimally compile anything.
2016-08-01T00:27:25Z pjb: Perhaps it needs it to interpret the initforms that may occur in the macro lambda list?
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2016-08-01T00:29:24Z Bike: they could be missing something, but sbcl and ccl parse-macro ignore it (ccl also has a sarcastic comment about parse-macro being useless)
2016-08-01T00:32:38Z pillton: Maybe parse-macro was specified in parallel to enclose. e.g. assume that enclose didn't exist and try to implement macrolet.
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2016-08-01T00:35:56Z pillton: Parse-macro in this instance would have to return a lambda expression which was invariant to the syntactic environment since coercion/compilation is performed in a null environment.
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2016-08-01T00:52:10Z Bike: don't think you can have an expression that's invariant like that. you'd ahve to cover, like, declarations... and it seems unlikely that the standard would expect special variables to be replaced by symbol-value calls and stuff
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2016-08-01T01:52:47Z mr_yogurt: Thoughts on rust?
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2016-08-01T01:53:45Z Bike: cool, off topic
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2016-08-01T02:19:32Z pmc: Is there an operator that prints the type hierarchy of an object?
2016-08-01T02:19:59Z Bike: every object has infinitely many types
2016-08-01T02:20:09Z Bike: you can get a class hierarchy, though
2016-08-01T02:20:16Z pmc: how's that?
2016-08-01T02:20:28Z Bike: (mop:class-precedence-list (class-of whatever))
2016-08-01T02:20:50Z Bike: "mop" would be "sb-mop" on sbcl, "ccl" on ccl, dunno others off the top of my head
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2016-08-01T02:23:06Z pmc: alright, thanks Bike
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2016-08-01T04:38:27Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-08-01T05:07:47Z JuanDaugherty: yello beach
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2016-08-01T05:19:57Z beach: The only reason I can see for PARSE-MACRO to require the environment is if the environment is needed in order for the LAMBDA-LIST to be parsed correctly.  This could happen if, for instance, different environments allow a different set of lambda-list keywords.
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2016-08-01T05:21:56Z beach: In fact, SICL has first-class global environments, and it may be very useful to have a different such set in different global environment.  For example, the environment in which the compiler was defined could have a larger set of lambda-list keywords than the standard requires, but it may not be useful to expose those to other code.
2016-08-01T05:22:44Z Bike: how obscure.
2016-08-01T05:23:58Z beach: I am not saying I am planning to do that.
2016-08-01T05:24:32Z beach: I am saying, it could be worthwhile for PARSE-MACRO to pass on the environment to the lambda-list parser for macro lambda list.
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2016-08-01T05:25:39Z beach: Here is another example: Cross compilation.  One might want to define an SBCL global environment that contains the additional lambda-list keywords that SBCL has.
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2016-08-01T05:41:23Z JuanDaugherty: it's not speced like that similar to argv in C?
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2016-08-01T05:41:58Z beach: JuanDaugherty: What do you mean?
2016-08-01T05:42:30Z JuanDaugherty: that that is the purpose of having the env as a speced parameter
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2016-08-01T05:43:52Z pillton: beach: I see.
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2016-08-01T05:45:09Z beach: JuanDaugherty: I guess I don't know what "speced like that similar to argv in c" means.
2016-08-01T05:45:31Z Bike: lisp environments are not a lot like envp
2016-08-01T05:47:21Z beach: pillton: The Common Lisp HyperSpec is quite strange when it comes to environment parameters.  Parts of the spec look like they definitely imagined the possibility of first-class global environments.  Other parts make first-class global environments very hard to implement because they omitted such a parameter.
2016-08-01T05:47:38Z JuanDaugherty: Bike, ah
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2016-08-01T05:51:19Z pillton: beach: It certainly appears that way. Which is the one which makes it hard?
2016-08-01T05:51:35Z beach: Let me look at my code...
2016-08-01T05:52:25Z pillton: I wonder what they had in mind with find-class.
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2016-08-01T05:52:59Z beach: That one is probably a difference between the compilation environment and the run-time environment.
2016-08-01T05:53:23Z beach: One needs to be able to look up some aspects of the class definition in the compilation environment.
2016-08-01T05:53:52Z beach: clhs defclass
2016-08-01T05:53:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm
2016-08-01T05:54:16Z beach: If a defclass form appears as a top level form, the compiler must make the class name be recognized as a valid type name in subsequent declarations (as for deftype) and be recognized as a valid class name for defmethod parameter specializers and for use as the :metaclass option of a subsequent defclass. The compiler must make the class definition available to be returned by find-class when its environment argument is a value receiv
2016-08-01T05:54:16Z beach: the environment parameter of a macro.
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2016-08-01T05:55:57Z beach: pillton: Here is a partial list of functions that could have taken an optional environment parameter to make first-class global environments easier: fboundp, fmakunbound, fdefinition, (setf fdefinition), symbol-function, setf symbol-function, special-operator-p, ...
2016-08-01T05:56:39Z beach: pillton: Whereas, for example find-class, (setf find-class), etc. has such a parameter.
2016-08-01T05:56:52Z pillton: Oh of course. Just because they reference the global environment, doesn't mean the global environment is fixed.
2016-08-01T05:57:25Z beach: Right, there is still the distinction between compilation environment, startup environment, execution environment, etc.
2016-08-01T05:58:03Z ecraven: load-time-value too
2016-08-01T05:58:16Z beach: Yes, plenty of examples.
2016-08-01T05:59:00Z beach: pillton: So in SICL, the functions with no environment parameter systematically trampoline to a SICL-specific function that does have such a parameter, and that parameter is then required so that I can make the function generic and dispatch on the environment.
2016-08-01T05:59:07Z Bike: of course, (defclass foo () ()) (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (describe (find-class 'foo))) or (macrolet ((c (&environment e) `(describe ,(find-class 'foo t e)))) (c)) fails on sbcl
2016-08-01T05:59:16Z Bike: i remember checking and seeing it worked on ccl at some point
2016-08-01T05:59:58Z beach: Interesting.
2016-08-01T06:00:32Z Bike: there is a compile time part of defclass, but i t hink it just makes it available as a type
2016-08-01T06:01:08Z beach: I quoted the relevant paragraph above.
2016-08-01T06:01:13Z Bike: indeed
2016-08-01T06:01:25Z pillton: Bike: Does the metaclass requirement fail too?
2016-08-01T06:01:55Z Bike: probably not, since someone's way more likely to use it
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2016-08-01T06:02:58Z beach: In implementing SICL, I have found the Common Lisp HyperSpec way easier to understand if I think of Common Lisp as having first-class global environments.
2016-08-01T06:03:23Z Bike: yeah, it works. of course, i don't think sbcl actually does anything with :metaclass at compile time, so there's no reason for it to fail.
2016-08-01T06:04:50Z Bike: yeah you can just (defclass bar () () (:metaclass never-defining-this-fucker)) and it works fine until you load it.
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2016-08-01T06:07:37Z Bike: i don't particularly understand global environments. like, if you find-class in a macro function, won't that be executed in the dynamic... extent-ish-thing of the compiler anyway?
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2016-08-01T06:09:47Z beach: The spec allows for the compilation environment to be either different from or the same as the execution environment.
2016-08-01T06:10:11Z beach: So it could be a specific environment that is discarded when the compilation finishes.
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2016-08-01T06:10:52Z beach: ... if that is what you mean by "dynamic... extent-ish-thing".
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2016-08-01T06:11:21Z Bike: no, i just mean... what's the difference between (find-class foo) and (find-class foo t env) if they're both executed during a macroexpansion?
2016-08-01T06:11:54Z beach: Good question...
2016-08-01T06:13:30Z beach: Boy, it is so hard to come up with these examples like that.
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2016-08-01T06:13:58Z beach: It is often when writing the code that it becomes clear.
2016-08-01T06:14:12Z Bike: i know what you mean.
2016-08-01T06:14:17Z beach: "Let's see, which environment should I pass here?"
2016-08-01T06:14:45Z Bike: sbcl find-class just ignores the environment (and signals weird warnings), so i guess there is no difference with some version of global environments
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2016-08-01T06:15:50Z beach: SBCL (if I remember correctly) like most implementations uses the possibility from the Common Lisp of having all global environments be the same.
2016-08-01T06:16:01Z Bike: right
2016-08-01T06:16:06Z beach: So in that case, it is possible to ignore the parameter.
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2016-08-01T06:17:07Z beach: Oh, also, some parts of the Common Lisp HyperSpec allow for things like lexical generic functions.  Stuff that was later discarded from the standard.
2016-08-01T06:17:20Z beach: There could be traces of those possibilities left in other parts of the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2016-08-01T06:17:29Z Bike: never thought of that.
2016-08-01T06:17:43Z Bike: i figured generic-flet was too weird to influence much
2016-08-01T06:18:19Z beach: I find it entirely plausible that some &environment parameter was included for such a purpose, and then it was never removed.
2016-08-01T06:19:18Z Bike: yeah.
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2016-08-01T06:21:11Z Bike: though i don't think you'd need it on find-class specifically for any of generic-flet/labels or with-added-methods.
2016-08-01T06:21:29Z beach: You are probably right.
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2016-08-01T06:23:33Z Bike: anywho, ccl actually has a whole metaclass just for compile time class definitions, i forgot about that
2016-08-01T06:23:37Z Bike: https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/blob/5bfa117ef873a16922e8cd24571d1a78c0bd2625/level-1/l1-clos-boot.lisp#L1328
2016-08-01T06:24:25Z beach: Interesting.
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2016-08-01T06:25:09Z Bike: not a lot to it, though. (defclass compile-time-class (class) ())
2016-08-01T06:26:28Z beach: So I guess it is similar in spirit to forward-referenced-class?
2016-08-01T06:26:59Z Bike: pretty much. just enough for the defclass thing. ccl doesn't even seem to declare accessors like sbcl does.
2016-08-01T06:27:07Z Bike: for the metaclass thing* and find-class, of course
2016-08-01T06:27:36Z Bike: iirc when i looked into this i found that the compile-time-class is change-class'd into the actual thing.
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2016-08-01T06:28:28Z Bike: oh, no, i got that wrong, it does record the accessors, i just didn't have any to record.
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2016-08-01T06:39:31Z pillton: When does the change-class occur?
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2016-08-01T06:44:08Z beach: Immediately when called.
2016-08-01T06:44:25Z beach: There is no reason to delay it since you have access to the instance.
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2016-08-01T06:44:52Z Bike: i believe the question meant "when is change-class called"
2016-08-01T06:45:04Z beach: Oh, sorry!
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2016-08-01T06:46:19Z pillton: Yeah. The instance won't exist at compile time.
2016-08-01T06:46:23Z pillton: Sorry..
2016-08-01T06:46:25Z pillton: Load time.
2016-08-01T06:46:32Z phoe: Morning!
2016-08-01T06:46:43Z phoe: And see you later/BBL.
2016-08-01T06:47:33Z Bike: and the answer is, i don't know. ensure-class-using-class calls change-class but only on forward-referenced-classes, of which compile-time-class is not
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2016-08-01T06:51:44Z Bike: but when i do the admittedly obscure (macrolet ((c (&environment e) (describe (find-class 'foo t e)) `(describe ',(find-class 'foo t e)))) (c)) i get a compile-time-class and then a standard-class.
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2016-08-01T06:54:42Z pillton: That makes sense.
2016-08-01T06:54:51Z Bike: does it?
2016-08-01T06:55:41Z pillton: I'm assuming you are compiling the file in a fresh environment.
2016-08-01T06:55:46Z pillton: Then loading the resulting fasl.
2016-08-01T06:55:50Z Bike: jah.
2016-08-01T06:56:27Z pillton: Yeah. So during minimal compilation you get a compile time class.
2016-08-01T06:56:39Z pillton: When you load, you get the real thing.
2016-08-01T06:57:02Z pillton: Have a look at the macro expansion for defclass.
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2016-08-01T06:57:10Z Bike: but i mean, the find-class is executed in the macro expander.
2016-08-01T06:57:29Z Bike: both the describes are of the same object, its identity just changes by the time the file is loaded, somehow.
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2016-08-01T06:59:13Z pillton: Yes. The meta class is instantiated according to the information in the fasl.
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2016-08-01T07:11:38Z pillton: Actually I'm not sure now, it seems to violate 4.3.6 in the (load (compile-file ..)) case.
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2016-08-01T07:16:11Z pillton: I think it is covered 3.2.2.3.
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2016-08-01T11:37:31Z svetlyak40wt: Hey guys, is here somebody who uses Parenscript intensively? I have few questions.
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2016-08-01T11:38:10Z pjb: I've used it once quite a few years ago.
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2016-08-01T11:38:43Z pjb: svetlyak40wt: perhaps in #lispweb?
2016-08-01T11:39:22Z pjb: But if you don't ask, you'll never know if anybody here or even myself know the answer or not…
2016-08-01T11:40:24Z svetlyak40wt: Well, question number one. How to do `import React from 'react';` in Parenscript?
2016-08-01T11:40:36Z svetlyak40wt: Or import { Router, browserHistory } from 'react-router';
2016-08-01T11:42:24Z pjb: You'd use PS-INLINE or PS-INLINE*
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2016-08-01T11:44:13Z svetlyak40wt: pjb: don't see how ps-inline will help here. All it does is output inline with "javascript:" prefix. Right?
2016-08-01T11:45:39Z pjb: You can also just generate some HTML SCRIPT tag where you  will write those imports.
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2016-08-01T11:47:42Z svetlyak40wt: What I'm trying to do is to write a React component, and to use it with another libraries, installed via npm. After lisp->js generation, I feed all files to the webpack, and it should process these imports.
2016-08-01T11:48:02Z pjb: svetlyak40wt: what matters is the html file you generate in the end.
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2016-08-01T11:50:55Z pjb: So, if you can't make it work with ps:ps-inline, then you will have either to patch parenscript (it doesn't know any import form to compile to javascript), or to generate the javascript directly in the HTML.  If you write the javascript in a js file, then you could just write your javascript prefix to that same file first.
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2016-08-01T11:51:12Z svetlyak40wt: No, the problem is that from webpack's point of view, all JS components are closures and you can't just load React or some other component into the global scope.
2016-08-01T11:52:23Z pjb: Oh, so this is a webpack question. I don't know it.  Perhaps you could ask in #webpack?  Also, I don't know whether javascript supports importing inside closures.
2016-08-01T11:53:10Z pjb: svetlyak40wt: you could try to write the javascript by hand first, and once you have a working javascript, find out how to generate it from lisp.
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2016-08-01T11:53:40Z pjb: If you ask us (or in #lispweb), "how do I generate this javascript with parenscript?" we'll be able to help better.
2016-08-01T11:53:45Z svetlyak40wt: I have working JS, just trying to rewrite it in parenscript :)
2016-08-01T11:54:10Z pjb: So perhaps showing it with http://paste.lisp.org/new ?
2016-08-01T11:55:37Z svetlyak40wt: pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/321863
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2016-08-01T11:57:00Z svetlyak40wt: There is no questions with usual js code, but "import" constructs seems need some hack in parenscript.
2016-08-01T11:57:51Z pjb: svetlyak40wt: yes, you will have to just write them to the ps file directly.
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2016-08-01T12:00:14Z svetlyak40wt: pjb: Hmm, right now I'm using sigil-cli, to build the final js file. It already has "load" macro (https://github.com/burtonsamograd/sigil/blob/master/sigil.lisp#L6-L22). Probably, I should add support for (import "react") statements into sigil?
2016-08-01T12:00:31Z pjb: (with-open-file (ps "svet.ps" :direction :output :if-does-not-exist :create :if-exists :supersede) (write-line "import React from 'react';" ps) (ps-to-stream ps …more-ps-forms…))
2016-08-01T12:00:58Z pjb: And yes, it would be nice to patch it to add support for import expressions.
2016-08-01T12:02:45Z pjb: s/svet.ps/svet.js/
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2016-08-01T12:11:43Z svetlyak40wt: pjb: Thank you.
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2016-08-01T12:13:26Z svetlyak40wt: Second question was: "How to reuse parenscript code?" why this project exists almost 10 years, but nobody wrote a tool to use in parenscript systems, installed via quicklisp?
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2016-08-01T12:14:22Z svetlyak40wt: For example, I found few helpers to write React.js components in parenscript. But I have to copy these macroses manually into my project.
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2016-08-01T12:15:50Z pjb: Well, there is indeed a lot of good old lisp code that doesn't have an asdf system definition, and that is not published on quicklisp.  You would have to take charge of it, write an asd, put it on a git repository and ask Xach to distribute it in quicklisp.
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2016-08-01T13:29:28Z Grue``: svetlyak40wt: if you already have working javascript, why even rewrite in parenscript?
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2016-08-01T13:30:17Z svetlyak40wt: Grue``: because it is just a sketch and I want to continue develop this project in lisp on the frontend and on the backend.
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2016-08-01T13:30:59Z Grue``: parenscript and CL are different languages anyway, so there's context switch in either case
2016-08-01T13:31:17Z svetlyak40wt: The other reason, is – I want to build a frameworks for myself, to create web applications effectively.
2016-08-01T13:31:21Z Grue``: in fact, parenscript is pretty much just a glorified javascript with parentheses
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2016-08-01T13:32:22Z ecraven: Grue``: still, you can use the same code server-side and client-side (even if it actually is something entirely different)
2016-08-01T13:32:25Z svetlyak40wt: Grue``: I know, but macro system, and sexps editing are features I desire to have in frontend development
2016-08-01T13:32:30Z ecraven: especially with cl:who support in parenscript
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2016-08-01T13:34:06Z Grue``: for server-side/client-side html generation convergence I actually like closure-templates approach - it can generate both CL and Javascript functions that generate identical HTML
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2016-08-01T13:35:07Z svetlyak40wt: Grue``: can you post a link to some projects you did with parenscript?
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2016-08-01T13:35:22Z ecraven: isn't that the same thing, just with a different syntax?
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2016-08-01T13:36:04Z Grue``: I used parenscript for one of my projects, but it never was put up online
2016-08-01T13:36:39Z Grue``: now I write Javascript by hand, or use closure-templates generated javascript: http://ichi.moe/js/dict.js
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2016-08-01T13:38:30Z lurk3r: I tried node/express last month and it seems nice, it would be wonderful to have something as rhcloud lispenabled
2016-08-01T13:39:39Z svetlyak40wt: lurk3r: What is rhcloud?
2016-08-01T13:40:19Z lurk3r: the hosting service provided by red hat
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2016-08-01T13:59:55Z svetlyak40wt: lurk3r: Why do you need a lispenabled service provider, when you can build a Docker image with application and to deploy it anywhere you want?
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2016-08-01T14:02:53Z lurk3r: sounds very good thanks ... any idea of a free docker hosting for free?
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2016-08-01T14:13:52Z pjb: Take clasp, add webassembly, and then write your front-end (in the browser) in CL instead of javascript.
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2016-08-01T14:26:28Z lurk3r: ok ok ... but I'm more interested in back-end programming, thanks
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2016-08-01T14:45:19Z pjb: lurk3r: for back-end you can already write it in CL.
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2016-08-01T14:48:19Z lurk3r: yes, I know, I wanted to know some good hosting for free via docker if needed to experiment a bit, any ideas?
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2016-08-01T15:29:23Z Grue``: lurk3r: free hosting of web applications is a pipe dream
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2016-08-01T15:30:37Z Grue``: if you can afford $5 per month, there's DigitalOcean
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2016-08-01T15:34:25Z alphor: there's also cheap VPS that you can have for $15 a year, but don't expect much performance outta them
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2016-08-01T15:46:02Z lurk3r: yes I know, thanks!
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2016-08-01T15:47:54Z lurk3r: but last month I deployed a full web application in node/express over Mysql for free on rhcloud
2016-08-01T15:48:29Z lurk3r: and I was wondering if there's something like that focused on lisp
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2016-08-01T15:49:47Z kiron: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2016-08-01T16:44:06Z jasom: minion: memo for svetlyak40wt If you have parenscript questions I'll be happy to answer them.  I wrote a small-ish webapp in react using parenscript.  I think we are on very different timezones though; I'm willing to stay up late but have to schedule it so I'm not too out-of-sync with my wife
2016-08-01T16:44:08Z minion: what would you do otherwise?
2016-08-01T16:44:17Z jasom: minion: memo for svetlyak40wt: If you have parenscript questions I'll be happy to answer them.  I wrote a small-ish webapp in react using parenscript.  I think we are on very different timezones though; I'm willing to stay up late but have to schedule it so I'm not too out-of-sync with my wife
2016-08-01T16:44:17Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell svetlyak40wt when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-08-01T18:02:30Z Baggers: evening all. Does anyone know of any project that takes the definitions from sb-posix and changes the macros so they expand to cffi calls?
2016-08-01T18:02:49Z Baggers: If not I'm going to get that done
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2016-08-01T18:04:32Z Bike: er, so like a more portable posix interface? i think it's kind of spread out, since there's like iolib and such
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2016-08-01T18:05:45Z Baggers: Bike: thanks, I'm avoiding iolib (as good as it seems) as I dont want to assume a working gcc setup on the library users' system
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2016-08-01T18:50:45Z shka_: hi all
2016-08-01T18:50:59Z shka_: is there any reasonable way to run cmake and make from asdf?
2016-08-01T18:54:13Z oGMo: shka_: i've done similar by defining a new asdf op and using ASDF's run-shell-command
2016-08-01T18:54:32Z shka_: ok, run-shell-command should cut it
2016-08-01T18:54:35Z shka_: thx
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2016-08-01T19:13:13Z rpg: shka_: Yes, I have done as oGMo suggests for make.
2016-08-01T19:13:54Z rpg: One thing I never got around to that you might want to: make supports a check that simply exits if there's nothing to be done. Could be used in OPERATION-DONE-P for a MAKE-OP.
2016-08-01T19:14:18Z rpg: I'd love a MAKE-OP contrib for ASDF.
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2016-08-01T19:19:36Z AeroNotix: Xach: does QuickLisp support Windows?
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2016-08-01T19:20:10Z Bike: "Quicklisp is easy to install and works with ABCL, Allegro CL, Clasp, Clozure CL, CLISP, CMUCL, ECL, LispWorks, MKCL, SBCL, and Scieneer CL, on Linux, Mac OS X, and Windows."
2016-08-01T19:20:37Z AeroNotix: Yeah I've read that, I know it *says* support but I was wondering if Xach could potentially mention some edge cases where it doesn't work
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2016-08-01T19:22:24Z shka_: rpg: i want to build wrapper for existing C++ library, no chance it will be in the system
2016-08-01T19:23:10Z rpg: shka_: what I did -- you can ask me for the code off-line if you are interested -- was define a subclass of OPERATION that was MAKE-OP. This was general purpose.
2016-08-01T19:23:47Z rpg: I think then we also had a MAKE-SYSTEM class, which was operated on using MAKE-OP.
2016-08-01T19:24:27Z shka_: rpg: ok, thx for tip, i think i will simply write small shell script to get job done
2016-08-01T19:24:35Z shka_: it does not sound problematic
2016-08-01T19:24:46Z shka_: btw
2016-08-01T19:25:05Z shka_: lisp could be really good language to build makefile generator for C++
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2016-08-01T20:45:53Z heddwch: I'm having issues with (defconstant) in an ASDF-loaded system. It seems to be evaluated at compile-time and load-time both, which is good, except for the fact that ASDF first compiles, thus defining the constant, then tries to load and throws a redefinition error. Is there a better way to deal with this than (unless (boundp '+constant+) (defconstant +constant+ […])?
2016-08-01T20:46:36Z rpg[Away]: heddwch: If you are getting a spurious redefinition error, I believe that means you are not using a defconstant that is a primitive value.
2016-08-01T20:46:51Z rpg[Away]: What's the value of the constant that's "redefined"?
2016-08-01T20:47:04Z heddwch: That's correct. It's an alist
2016-08-01T20:47:19Z rpg[Away]: heddwch: That's a violation of the ANSI spec.
2016-08-01T20:47:29Z rpg[Away]: constants must be of EQL-checkable types.
2016-08-01T20:47:38Z heddwch: Oops :) Guess I'll use defparameter, thanks
2016-08-01T20:47:55Z rpg[Away]: heddwch: Do you need it defined at compile time? Coz if so, defparameter won't do the job.
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2016-08-01T20:49:12Z rpg[Away]: You could try alexandria:define-constant if you need compile-time semantics.
2016-08-01T20:49:27Z heddwch: I do, but can't I just (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel) (defparameter))?
2016-08-01T20:49:42Z heddwch: Ah, I'll look at that. Already including alexandria in this project anyway
2016-08-01T20:50:14Z rpg[Away]: heddwch: The alexandria authors have probably gotten it right; easier than trying to do it yourself.
2016-08-01T20:50:25Z heddwch: hehe true
2016-08-01T20:51:21Z heddwch: Thank you
2016-08-01T20:52:46Z rpg[Away]: For me, Not Invented Here is a /good/ thing ;-)
2016-08-01T20:52:51Z rpg[Away]: ttfn
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2016-08-01T20:58:33Z heddwch: Yea, agreed, as long as it's a decent implementation/interface.
2016-08-01T20:58:35Z pjb: NIH is the best thing of the world.
2016-08-01T20:58:42Z heddwch: (define-constant) worked perfectly :)
2016-08-01T20:59:26Z pjb: I can't wait long distance space travel, so that programming locally becomes again a necessity, compared to the time to send git repositories thru the interstellar network.
2016-08-01T21:00:48Z heddwch: git repositories that include thirteen other git repositories, 1-3 of which are always a regex library, is how most language ecosystems are…
2016-08-01T21:00:50Z pjb: Without this subspace bullshit, Startrek spaceships would have been full of white-shirt programmers :-)
2016-08-01T21:01:17Z heddwch: Not sure that's a benefit over just writing it yourself and not having a regex library included for an arithmetic library :p
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2016-08-01T21:25:58Z dim: pjb: well sometimes you don't have the time to reinvent the whole world. I can't care much about NIH, no time for that really.
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2016-08-01T21:29:07Z pjb: dim: space travel gives you a lot of time.  Even taking into account relativistic effects, you have six months, one year between stars, to work on your programs!
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2016-08-01T22:21:31Z prole: Hie, I want to do a little bite of scripting in lisp; what should I use? I heard of scsh, of guile. Or I could even use Common Lisp
2016-08-01T22:22:04Z Bike: thsi channel is for common lisp. so, use that
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2016-08-01T22:23:45Z rumbler31: evening lisp
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2016-08-01T22:24:09Z prole: Bike: This channel is called lisp...
2016-08-01T22:24:22Z Bike: yep. common lisp. check the topic
2016-08-01T22:24:59Z Bike: there's a ##lisp for "generalized lisp" or something.
2016-08-01T22:25:05Z prole: o ok. Thanks
2016-08-01T22:25:35Z rumbler31: I got further with my optimization problem
2016-08-01T22:26:46Z rumbler31: when I would read in 4 copies of the file i was testing with, and the runtime characteristics would change after the first, playing with (room and the gc threshold limit suggest that I was simply blowing out the heap every 30 meg or so
2016-08-01T22:28:08Z rumbler31: so I increased the heap size and gc time dropped to 10%.  my next thing to look at is where i'm allocating so much, (room tells me i've allocated 4 gig for a 700 meg file, and ccl has a function that tells you the sizes of all the things in the heap, but at least I know more than I did before
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