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ZZZzzz…) 2016-07-29T03:40:30Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-07-29T03:49:10Z pillton: You can't. 2016-07-29T03:49:18Z pillton: You are better off using fifos. 2016-07-29T03:49:32Z pillton: They aren't great either. 2016-07-29T03:49:55Z pillton: Poll/select is broken on OSX for fifos. 2016-07-29T03:50:01Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-07-29T03:53:52Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-07-29T03:54:12Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-07-29T03:54:28Z quasus joined #lisp 2016-07-29T03:54:30Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-07-29T03:55:34Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-07-29T03:57:28Z moei joined #lisp 2016-07-29T03:57:49Z milanj joined #lisp 2016-07-29T03:59:00Z loke: pillton: What _isn't_ broken on OSX? 2016-07-29T03:59:34Z loke: I've essentially stoppe dusing it. It was pretty great back in the days, but it's remarkable that a company with so much resources can so severely fuck up a product. 2016-07-29T03:59:38Z pillton: Apple -> Shutdown 2016-07-29T03:59:41Z pillton: That works. 2016-07-29T04:00:07Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-07-29T04:01:41Z loke: I used to like OSX a lot and I switched to it from Linux back in... hmm... 2000? They got better and better for a few years but then they just lost it (around the time the Iphone came out, I think). Now they actually manage to make it worse for each release. 2016-07-29T04:01:44Z mbuf joined #lisp 2016-07-29T04:06:52Z pillton: Same story for me. I switched after realising how much time I wasted with Linux. 2016-07-29T04:08:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: Are there any specific things that apple's OS does wrong that was better before? 2016-07-29T04:08:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: I've never used it. 2016-07-29T04:08:47Z Petit_Dejeuner: Well, never as a personal computer. 2016-07-29T04:08:49Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-07-29T04:12:42Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-07-29T04:16:06Z Petit_Dejeuner: On an on topic not, is there any reason why this isn't on quicklisp? https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/snd/snd/clm.html 2016-07-29T04:16:21Z Petit_Dejeuner: I can add it, I'm just curious why nobody else has. 2016-07-29T04:16:55Z XachX_: Does it build with only ASDF? 2016-07-29T04:21:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: I'm not sure what you mean. You mean relying on something different than asdf or something like gcc? 2016-07-29T04:21:45Z Petit_Dejeuner: It has an .asd file with a defsystem in it from asdf. 2016-07-29T04:22:19Z loke: Petit_Dejeuner: Well, one of the main issues is that Apple refuses to ship anything with GPL3. That means that it comes with utterly ancient versions of a lot of software. 2016-07-29T04:23:16Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-07-29T04:25:40Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-07-29T04:26:25Z safe joined #lisp 2016-07-29T04:27:04Z dainis quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-07-29T04:27:49Z unbalancedparen quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-07-29T04:32:32Z kolko quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-07-29T04:34:18Z brendyn joined #lisp 2016-07-29T04:34:46Z kolko joined #lisp 2016-07-29T04:42:20Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-07-29T04:42:21Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2016-07-29T04:52:51Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-07-29T04:56:39Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-07-29T04:58:19Z beach joined #lisp 2016-07-29T04:58:27Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-07-29T04:58:35Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-07-29T04:59:02Z pillton: G'day beach. 2016-07-29T05:05:15Z mbuf quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-07-29T05:06:07Z mbuf joined #lisp 2016-07-29T05:09:52Z mbuf quit (Client Quit) 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timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-07-29T10:17:04Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-07-29T10:17:58Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-07-29T10:18:54Z loke: Hoi 2016-07-29T10:19:01Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-07-29T10:20:08Z przl joined #lisp 2016-07-29T10:22:07Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-07-29T10:22:56Z johndau quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-07-29T10:25:13Z harish_ joined #lisp 2016-07-29T10:28:39Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-07-29T10:29:59Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-07-29T10:30:58Z milanj quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-07-29T10:34:37Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2016-07-29T10:37:03Z knobo: When I build a lisp that has a (defvar x ...), then the value of x is determined at build time. 2016-07-29T10:37:13Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-07-29T10:37:13Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-07-29T10:37:27Z knobo: So I wonder if a statement like (defvar *dummy-sockaddr* (cffi:foreign-alloc '(:struct wsock:sockaddr-in))) 2016-07-29T10:38:04Z knobo: would fail. 2016-07-29T10:38:39Z knobo: Maybe the foreign-alloc should be done when the lisp image starts. 2016-07-29T10:38:49Z knobo: and not at build time? 2016-07-29T10:43:03Z varjag: i think if your application keeps track of any system state, it has to be reinitialized (by you) upon the start 2016-07-29T10:43:12Z jackdaniel: knobo: that's what eval-when is meant for 2016-07-29T10:43:13Z varjag: sockets, file descriptors you name it 2016-07-29T10:43:21Z loke: knobo: No. The initialisation form for DEFVAR happens at load time. 2016-07-29T10:44:10Z loke: But only the first time. Subseqeunt evaluations of the form will not change the value. If you want that to happen, you need to use DEFPARAMETER. 2016-07-29T10:45:59Z knobo: The struckt should be allocated when I load the source, and when I save the image, the alocated structure is saved in my lisp image? 2016-07-29T10:46:00Z knobo: right? 2016-07-29T10:46:10Z varjag: loke: even when the image is loaded, not a fasl? 2016-07-29T10:46:18Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-07-29T10:46:32Z varjag: not sure how's load time is treated there 2016-07-29T10:46:39Z loke: varjag: Image is different. But the code will be run when a fasl is loaded. 2016-07-29T10:46:50Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-07-29T10:46:55Z varjag: well he mentions the image.. 2016-07-29T10:46:59Z loke: varjag: An image is simply a snapshot of the state at the point of dump. 2016-07-29T10:47:06Z varjag: exactly 2016-07-29T10:47:58Z knobo: So allocated memory should not be created with defvar if it should survive save-image? 2016-07-29T10:48:27Z loke: knobo: No it's fine. Whatever happened before the dump save whill have happened after loading. 2016-07-29T10:48:39Z loke: Except for _external_ state, such as network connections or open files. 2016-07-29T10:49:08Z varjag: allocated memory is fine; something mmaped or open FDs are less fine 2016-07-29T10:49:14Z knobo: loke: but maybe it's also a special case when the allocation is done with cffi? 2016-07-29T10:49:22Z loke: knobo: No special case there. 2016-07-29T10:49:43Z loke: In fact, it'd be impossible to make it a special case even if you wanted to. 2016-07-29T10:50:30Z knobo: I don't understand how it is possible. But that is not important now. 2016-07-29T10:50:54Z loke: knobo: An image save is merely a core dump of the process that has been made to be runnable. So whatever is stored in a core dump will be recovered. 2016-07-29T10:52:11Z jdz: probably a thing to keep in mind is that a dumped image is different than a FASL file 2016-07-29T10:52:27Z jdz: s/than/from 2016-07-29T10:53:02Z jackdaniel: FASL should be analyzed in term of *.lisp source precompiled a little to make it being loadable faster 2016-07-29T10:55:43Z knobo: I'm trying to figure out why woo fails when run from a saved image: https://github.com/fukamachi/woo/issues/51 2016-07-29T10:56:02Z knobo: I'm not able to reproduce the error on my computer though. 2016-07-29T10:56:54Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-07-29T10:58:16Z knobo: But the strace shows that accept4 receives a pointer (like 0x641240) as argument from the saved image. On my saved image it receives a struct (like this: {sa_family=AF_INET, sin_port=htons(50068), sin_addr=inet_addr("127.0.0.1")} 2016-07-29T11:00:34Z ovenpasta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-07-29T11:00:41Z ovenpasta1 joined #lisp 2016-07-29T11:00:41Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-07-29T11:02:01Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-07-29T11:03:03Z ovenpasta1 is now known as ovenpasta 2016-07-29T11:06:10Z knobo: Maybe it just happens on ubuntu 16.04 2016-07-29T11:19:32Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-07-29T11:21:12Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-07-29T11:22:42Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2016-07-29T11:24:23Z johann_ joined #lisp 2016-07-29T11:26:32Z gargaml joined #lisp 2016-07-29T11:27:21Z ovenpasta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-07-29T11:29:03Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-07-29T11:29:08Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-07-29T11:29:30Z aesirCabal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-07-29T11:33:31Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-07-29T11:34:25Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-07-29T11:38:58Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-07-29T11:43:03Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-07-29T11:45:28Z Tristam joined #lisp 2016-07-29T11:46:02Z przl joined #lisp 2016-07-29T11:49:52Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-07-29T11:53:33Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-07-29T11:54:51Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-07-29T11:56:40Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-07-29T11:57:06Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-07-29T11:57:30Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-07-29T11:59:40Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-07-29T12:04:27Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-07-29T12:07:34Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-07-29T12:11:12Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-07-29T12:13:41Z ineiros joined #lisp 2016-07-29T12:17:19Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-07-29T12:18:07Z Quadrescence quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-07-29T12:18:33Z HerrBlume joined #lisp 2016-07-29T12:18:59Z HerrBlume: hey all, i am currenlty try to compile the iterate package on a current sbcl version 2016-07-29T12:19:01Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-07-29T12:19:20Z HerrBlume: it fails at the sharpL reader macro 2016-07-29T12:19:28Z HerrBlume: is this a common problem? 2016-07-29T12:19:45Z jerme joined #lisp 2016-07-29T12:20:15Z HerrBlume: in SBCL 1.0.47.30 it works fine 2016-07-29T12:20:15Z HerrBlume: 2016-07-29T12:20:19Z HerrBlume: and compiles fine 2016-07-29T12:20:34Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-07-29T12:20:34Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2016-07-29T12:20:34Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-07-29T12:20:36Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-07-29T12:23:36Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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It works if I copy the image from Ubuntu 15.10 which I have on my laptop. 2016-07-29T12:40:03Z johann_ joined #lisp 2016-07-29T12:42:18Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-07-29T12:44:38Z przl joined #lisp 2016-07-29T12:44:54Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-07-29T12:45:27Z ineiros joined #lisp 2016-07-29T12:46:18Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-07-29T12:46:44Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-07-29T12:52:24Z knobo: Are dynamically loaded libraries also saved when the image is saved? 2016-07-29T12:54:25Z flip214: HerrBlume: sbcl 1.3.7 works with iterate for me 2016-07-29T12:54:49Z vito_ joined #lisp 2016-07-29T12:55:13Z vito_ is now known as Guest44137 2016-07-29T12:56:39Z Guest44137: Hi, everyone, I have a newbie question, and didn't find a good way to google it, so I came here. 2016-07-29T12:56:56Z Guest44137: In Common Lisp, when should we use "Special Operator THE" ? 2016-07-29T12:57:25Z oleo: why don't you look it up in clhs ? 2016-07-29T12:57:35Z oleo: the gives you the type of the thing 2016-07-29T12:57:46Z Guest44137: Yes, I have check the clhs. 2016-07-29T12:57:51Z Guest44137: But, I didn't see any difference between: (the fixnum (+ 1 2)) and (+ 1 2). 2016-07-29T12:58:08Z jackdaniel: Guest44137: this operator is just an assurance for the compiler 2016-07-29T12:58:18Z jackdaniel: it may be good for optimization (but it doesn't have to) 2016-07-29T12:58:28Z jackdaniel: you don't have to use it anywhere 2016-07-29T12:58:30Z Guest44137: should I always use (the fixnum (+ 1 2)) instead of (+ 1 2)? 2016-07-29T12:58:37Z jackdaniel: always use (+ 1 2) 2016-07-29T12:58:55Z Guest44137: Thank you jackdaniel. 2016-07-29T12:59:17Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-07-29T12:59:33Z jackdaniel: using 'the' will only clobber the code. You may want to use it during some optimizations for the bottlenecks, but unlikely 2016-07-29T12:59:43Z jackdaniel: sure 2016-07-29T12:59:59Z Guest44137: This sounds reasonable to me. 2016-07-29T13:02:09Z Guest44137: Thank you again, jackdaniel. Problem solved: "Special Operator THE" should only be used when we need to do some optimizations for the bottlenecks. 2016-07-29T13:02:24Z ggole: the is only appropriate if you are happy with your program going bad if the type is not correct 2016-07-29T13:03:35Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2016-07-29T13:05:40Z jackdaniel: yes and that. Compiler will take your 'the' declaration at face value and if it's incorrect it may go really bad 2016-07-29T13:06:41Z Guest44137: Yeah, I have tried: (the float (+ 1 2)) , the result is really bad. 2016-07-29T13:09:52Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-07-29T13:10:33Z luis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-07-29T13:10:42Z vi1 joined #lisp 2016-07-29T13:12:14Z luis joined #lisp 2016-07-29T13:14:28Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-07-29T13:14:32Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-07-29T13:15:02Z Grue``: the compiler should usually catch the type mismatch (especially with constants), unless you have (safety 0) or something 2016-07-29T13:15:41Z Fleurety joined #lisp 2016-07-29T13:19:11Z vi1 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-07-29T13:19:33Z HerrBlume quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-07-29T13:24:05Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-07-29T13:24:41Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-07-29T13:27:04Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2016-07-29T13:29:15Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-07-29T13:29:24Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-07-29T13:30:26Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-07-29T13:31:26Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-07-29T13:33:38Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-07-29T13:34:54Z cromachina quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-07-29T13:35:07Z norfumpit quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-07-29T13:36:06Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2016-07-29T13:36:15Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-07-29T13:36:20Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-07-29T13:36:24Z prole joined #lisp 2016-07-29T13:36:26Z scymtym: jackdaniel: that depends on the compiler and optimization settings. sbcl, for example, inserts type checks for THE forms in safe code (unless it can prove them to be unnecessary) 2016-07-29T13:40:15Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-07-29T13:46:08Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-07-29T13:46:18Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-07-29T13:46:19Z Guest44137 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-07-29T13:47:23Z knobo: Could it be something in the way ubuntu 16.04 does core dumps? 2016-07-29T13:49:06Z jackdaniel: scymtym: yes, but being thrown into debugger is something "really bad" if happens on the clients side 2016-07-29T13:50:30Z gargaml quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-07-29T13:52:41Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-07-29T13:53:08Z jackdaniel: (ECL does the same btw) 2016-07-29T13:57:15Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-07-29T13:57:18Z Grue``: knobo: it's probably systemd's fault. it's always systemd's fault 2016-07-29T14:03:14Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-07-29T14:04:34Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-07-29T14:08:45Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-07-29T14:08:59Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-07-29T14:15:30Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-07-29T14:15:38Z gilez joined #lisp 2016-07-29T14:16:00Z Alfr joined #lisp 2016-07-29T14:16:07Z Alfr left #lisp 2016-07-29T14:16:16Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-07-29T14:17:19Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-07-29T14:17:19Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-07-29T14:17:19Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-07-29T14:17:36Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-07-29T14:18:59Z zm joined #lisp 2016-07-29T14:24:25Z knobo: I have another computer with systemd (archlinux), I could check if it works there. 2016-07-29T14:27:15Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-07-29T14:28:48Z johann_ joined #lisp 2016-07-29T14:33:27Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-07-29T14:33:33Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-07-29T14:34:18Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-07-29T14:34:46Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-07-29T14:34:50Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-07-29T14:35:46Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-07-29T14:37:21Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-07-29T14:37:23Z ineiros joined #lisp 2016-07-29T14:37:53Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-07-29T14:45:55Z johann_ joined #lisp 2016-07-29T14:48:31Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-07-29T14:52:24Z ym quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-07-29T14:53:06Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-07-29T14:55:38Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-07-29T14:55:40Z ym joined #lisp 2016-07-29T14:55:44Z holly2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-07-29T15:00:54Z holly2 joined #lisp 2016-07-29T15:02:17Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2016-07-29T15:02:36Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-07-29T15:03:11Z svetlyak40wt: Hi, everybody! 2016-07-29T15:03:26Z knobo: Same problem on archlinux. 2016-07-29T15:03:33Z knobo: Could it be systemd? 2016-07-29T15:04:08Z svetlyak40wt: Could someone tell me if there is some static blog/site bulder (in Common Lisp)? I'm looking something like Pelican or Octopress, but written in Common Lisp. 2016-07-29T15:04:09Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-07-29T15:05:24Z harish_ joined #lisp 2016-07-29T15:07:40Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-07-29T15:08:05Z phoe: svetlyak40wt: there is! 2016-07-29T15:08:10Z jackdaniel: svetlyak40wt: coleslaw 2016-07-29T15:08:23Z phoe: https://github.com/kingcons/coleslaw 2016-07-29T15:08:27Z phoe: oh welp 2016-07-29T15:08:42Z jackdaniel: there is also some wrapper around coleslaw (and a tutorial) here: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/dkochmanski/sclp 2016-07-29T15:08:51Z phoe: I was about to write that they should message you about coleslaw details, jackdaniel :P 2016-07-29T15:09:07Z jackdaniel: I'm not related to coleslaw project, but it's really nice :) 2016-07-29T15:10:33Z svetlyak40wt: Than you, guys! 2016-07-29T15:11:37Z ineiros joined #lisp 2016-07-29T15:11:44Z jackdaniel: sure 2016-07-29T15:12:35Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-07-29T15:13:17Z phoe: jackdaniel: welp, nevertheless, you're the best coleslaw technician I know 2016-07-29T15:14:04Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-07-29T15:15:04Z unbalancedparen joined #lisp 2016-07-29T15:23:49Z mr_yogurt_ joined #lisp 2016-07-29T15:24:51Z burtons joined #lisp 2016-07-29T15:27:33Z prole quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-07-29T15:27:49Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-07-29T15:27:56Z HeyFlash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-07-29T15:28:03Z mr_yogurt quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-07-29T15:28:33Z m_zr0 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-07-29T15:29:04Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-07-29T15:29:30Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-07-29T15:30:06Z m_zr0 joined #lisp 2016-07-29T15:30:54Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-07-29T15:33:26Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-07-29T15:33:27Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-07-29T15:34:37Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-07-29T15:34:43Z phoe: welp 2016-07-29T15:34:53Z phoe: I'm creating a lot of utilities during my Lisp hacking. 2016-07-29T15:35:03Z phoe: Would it be feasible to document and publish them somewhere? 2016-07-29T15:35:18Z phoe: Like, small hackable utilitities that are mostly macro-based. 2016-07-29T15:35:37Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-07-29T15:35:54Z dlowe: only if learning them is harder than writing them :) 2016-07-29T15:36:30Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-07-29T15:37:07Z phoe: :P 2016-07-29T15:37:27Z phoe: I'd do it either way just to make a small article describing what sorts of tiny utilities for lazy people can be done in Lisp 2016-07-29T15:37:44Z dlowe: er, wait. other way around. 2016-07-29T15:38:18Z dlowe: it needs to be easier to learn your function than to write one 2016-07-29T15:38:20Z nhandler joined #lisp 2016-07-29T15:38:27Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-07-29T15:39:12Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-07-29T15:39:45Z PuercoPop: phoe: consider sending your utils to quickutils instead of publishing a util library 2016-07-29T15:41:54Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-07-29T15:45:10Z phoe: PuercoPop: does quickutil.org work for you? 2016-07-29T15:52:45Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-07-29T15:54:21Z burtons quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-07-29T15:54:37Z phoe: Well. It seems down. 2016-07-29T15:54:42Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-07-29T15:55:27Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2016-07-29T15:55:52Z burtons joined #lisp 2016-07-29T15:57:53Z kobain quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-07-29T15:58:04Z DougNYC joined #lisp 2016-07-29T15:58:42Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-07-29T16:00:35Z phoe: PuercoPop: It's the kind of http://paste.lisp.org/display/321636 hacky utilities that are mostly syntactical shortcuts. 2016-07-29T16:01:03Z unrahul joined #lisp 2016-07-29T16:03:33Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-07-29T16:06:58Z przl joined #lisp 2016-07-29T16:08:02Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-07-29T16:08:24Z harish_ joined #lisp 2016-07-29T16:09:26Z DGASAU quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-07-29T16:10:39Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-07-29T16:11:26Z kokonaisluku joined #lisp 2016-07-29T16:12:02Z kokonaisluku left #lisp 2016-07-29T16:12:43Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-07-29T16:13:20Z burtons quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-07-29T16:13:30Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-07-29T16:15:51Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-07-29T16:16:34Z Grue``: if I were writing something like defprint, I'd wrap &body in (print-unreadable-object () ...) as well 2016-07-29T16:16:45Z burtons joined #lisp 2016-07-29T16:19:54Z phoe: Grue``: actually, I'm not making such an assumption. 2016-07-29T16:20:03Z phoe: LOCAL-TIME:TIMESTAMP doesn't print like that, for example. 2016-07-29T16:20:09Z oGMo: definitely not 2016-07-29T16:20:26Z Grue``: because otherwise it doesn't save too much keystrokes 2016-07-29T16:20:27Z phoe: If I want to use the #< notation, I'd state that explicitly. 2016-07-29T16:20:46Z oGMo: thus why would you bother 2016-07-29T16:20:57Z phoe: (defprint my-class ...) versus (defmethod print-object ((obj my-class) stream ...) 2016-07-29T16:21:07Z phoe: there's my keystroke savin' 2016-07-29T16:21:15Z gargaml joined #lisp 2016-07-29T16:21:16Z oGMo: probably not enough to bother heh 2016-07-29T16:21:22Z phoe: oGMo: welp 2016-07-29T16:21:23Z phoe: I'm lazy 2016-07-29T16:21:30Z Grue``: at least people know what defmethod is 2016-07-29T16:21:48Z oGMo: people can M-. defprint 2016-07-29T16:21:59Z oGMo: if you can't read code, get out of the kitchen 2016-07-29T16:22:11Z Grue``: what if you're just browsing it on github 2016-07-29T16:22:16Z phoe: why are you doing Lisp on the kitchen!? 2016-07-29T16:22:31Z phoe: Grue``: you type "defprint" in the Search This Repository field on top 2016-07-29T16:22:40Z Grue``: ideally code should be understandable without IDEs 2016-07-29T16:22:56Z oGMo: Grue``: in that case, never write any functions or macros or anything, because someone might not know what they do when you call them elsewhere 2016-07-29T16:23:12Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2016-07-29T16:23:26Z oGMo: also "defprint" is rather self-explanatory and if it's not obvious from context, look it up :P that's not really the issue 2016-07-29T16:23:40Z jsmith_ joined #lisp 2016-07-29T16:24:00Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-07-29T16:24:37Z jdz: i don't see much point in the DEFPRINT macro, too 2016-07-29T16:24:42Z zm quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-07-29T16:25:10Z oGMo: i don't either but if you really wanted it's definitely easy 2016-07-29T16:25:27Z Grue``: there's a balance between code understandability and code elegance. I think macros that barely do anything harm understandability while not adding to elegance. if you're gonna macro, macro HARD 2016-07-29T16:25:47Z oGMo: no 2016-07-29T16:25:51Z jdz: It's actually the other way around -- I find these small (and IMO pointless) macros annoying... 2016-07-29T16:27:42Z Grue``: my point exactly 2016-07-29T16:27:53Z phoe: where I like the fact that I don't define an after method for initialize instance on an object of class my-class - I define a constructor for class my-class 2016-07-29T16:27:57Z phoe: hence defconstructor 2016-07-29T16:28:05Z phoe: and so on. less noise for me. 2016-07-29T16:28:32Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-07-29T16:29:07Z jdz: The fact that it's easy to do does not mean it should be done. 2016-07-29T16:30:20Z PuercoPop: phoe: you can submit the PRs to https://github.com/tarballs-are-good/quickutil 2016-07-29T16:30:27Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-07-29T16:31:22Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-07-29T16:33:28Z burtons quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-07-29T16:34:06Z burtons joined #lisp 2016-07-29T16:34:45Z phoe: jdz: the fact that it's easy to do doesn't mean it shouldn't be done either. 2016-07-29T16:34:51Z phoe: a matter of taste, I guessT 2016-07-29T16:34:53Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-07-29T16:34:57Z phoe: s/guessT/guess!/ 2016-07-29T16:39:11Z przl joined #lisp 2016-07-29T16:41:22Z Grue``: well, there are other problems with your macros. for example, defprint is anaphoric. if I use defprint from my package, the symbol OBJ in my package might not be the symbol OBJ from defprint's package 2016-07-29T16:41:48Z aeth: Easy or hard, I think macros make most sense when there's a clear pattern that's often used... e.g. a #h(...) reader macro for literal hash table syntax makes lots of sense, whether or not it's trivial in its implementation. 2016-07-29T16:42:11Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-07-29T16:42:21Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-07-29T16:42:24Z ggole: Why not just a function? 2016-07-29T16:43:09Z ggole: Although I guess an argument list could introduce enough inefficiency that you'd want a macro 2016-07-29T16:43:26Z phoe: Grue``: welp, that's TODO indeed. 2016-07-29T16:43:38Z ggole: (But then, isn't that what compiler macros are for?) 2016-07-29T16:43:57Z aeth: ggole: why a compiler macro instead of just a function with eval-when on compile? 2016-07-29T16:44:02Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-07-29T16:44:06Z burtons quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-07-29T16:44:23Z ggole: Because that's the wrong time to evaluate variables you want to put in the table. 2016-07-29T16:44:26Z yeticry quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-07-29T16:45:04Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-07-29T16:45:16Z burtons joined #lisp 2016-07-29T16:45:43Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2016-07-29T16:49:15Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-07-29T16:52:49Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-07-29T16:58:50Z dlowe: local-time doesn't print with #<> mostly because Erik Naggum didn't put it that way. 2016-07-29T16:59:14Z Grue``: he really hated angular brackets... 2016-07-29T16:59:28Z dlowe: If it had been my initial design, I probably would have made it unreadable 2016-07-29T17:00:09Z dlowe: I'm not sure much would have been lost. 2016-07-29T17:01:00Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-07-29T17:01:33Z sondr3_ joined #lisp 2016-07-29T17:01:34Z jasom: dlowe: I like to be able to paste in results to the debugger, even if I dont use the reader-macro in code 2016-07-29T17:01:41Z jasom: #<> prevents that 2016-07-29T17:03:22Z dlowe: if you use slime, you can paste #<> objects too 2016-07-29T17:03:26Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2016-07-29T17:04:17Z jasom: dlowe: I *almost* included it in my first comment, since I knew someone would say that, but not all of my logs come from slime. 2016-07-29T17:04:33Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-07-29T17:04:35Z dlowe: :) 2016-07-29T17:05:32Z jasom: but yes it's a good point. I was using slime for years before I learned that, so always good to point it out for those who aren't aware. 2016-07-29T17:07:38Z dlowe: well, I'm pleased that it's useful to someone. I'll keep that in mind if I ever make another readable object. 2016-07-29T17:07:45Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-07-29T17:09:51Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-07-29T17:11:35Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-07-29T17:15:57Z jasom: Is it possible for custom objects to print #<> with (print) but something readable with print-readably bound to true (e.g. like hash-tables on sbcl) 2016-07-29T17:17:50Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-07-29T17:18:27Z jasom: that's actually a decent middle-ground where #<> shows what you normally care about but the print-readably version lets you reconstruct the object 2016-07-29T17:18:41Z Bike: i think that is actually how all printing is supposed to work. 2016-07-29T17:18:49Z Bike: like, print-object methods are supposed to respect print-readably. 2016-07-29T17:19:22Z jasom: well I don't think the standard even requires that all built-in objects respect print-readably, but I might be wrong 2016-07-29T17:20:15Z Bike: it says "any object" in clhs print-readably, and also "Individual methods for print-object, including user-defined methods, are responsible for implementing these requirements" 2016-07-29T17:20:30Z Bike: regardless, you can certainly do it yourself by checking print-readably in your method 2016-07-29T17:20:41Z jasom: yeah, it's obvious now. 2016-07-29T17:21:00Z jasom: -+* 2016-07-29T17:22:29Z jasom: -+* 2016-07-29T17:22:50Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2016-07-29T17:22:57Z jasom: sorry grabbed my keyboard while going under my desk to plug something in 2016-07-29T17:23:03Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2016-07-29T17:23:07Z burtons quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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How can I prevent this from being printed, aside from muffle-warnings which might otherwise prevent valuable warnings from being printed? 2016-07-29T17:50:12Z Bike: weird, i didn't know normal warnings would mention ctrans 2016-07-29T17:51:00Z phoe: ... 2016-07-29T17:51:09Z phoe: lemme paste it. 2016-07-29T17:51:53Z Bike: anyway, i'd just ignore it. there's stuff you can do to muffle only particular warning classes but it's sort of annoying to do 2016-07-29T17:52:06Z Bike: especially since that's probably a simple-whatever-warning or something 2016-07-29T17:52:10Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/321640 2016-07-29T17:52:24Z phoe: Look at the second line of the first with-... block. 2016-07-29T17:52:29Z phoe: I put an additional LET in there. 2016-07-29T17:52:37Z phoe: This causes the warning not to happen. 2016-07-29T17:52:43Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-07-29T17:52:45Z Bike: fickle. 2016-07-29T17:52:48Z phoe: I remove that LET and inline the variable in its spot, boom. 2016-07-29T17:55:59Z rme joined #lisp 2016-07-29T17:58:40Z Josh3 joined #lisp 2016-07-29T17:59:31Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-07-29T17:59:37Z Josh2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-07-29T17:59:37Z Josh3 is now known as Josh2 2016-07-29T18:00:37Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-07-29T18:04:55Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-07-29T18:05:30Z phoe: Uhh. 2016-07-29T18:05:38Z phoe: That's a bug in EVERY. 2016-07-29T18:05:55Z phoe: I go (find nil list) and it goes quiet. 2016-07-29T18:06:32Z przl joined #lisp 2016-07-29T18:06:49Z Bike: you know that (find nil whatever) always returns nil, right? 2016-07-29T18:07:35Z phoe: wait 2016-07-29T18:07:41Z phoe: clhs find 2016-07-29T18:07:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_.htm 2016-07-29T18:07:44Z Bike: also, i assume this code is auto generated, but what the heck is the point of (every ... (list ...)) 2016-07-29T18:08:43Z phoe: Bike: I want to avoid AND because it short-circuits as soon as it finds a NIL. 2016-07-29T18:09:02Z Bike: well, yes, but it doesn't look like anything there has side effects. 2016-07-29T18:09:02Z phoe: That's why EVERY #'IDENTITY on a list on test cases. 2016-07-29T18:09:13Z phoe: Yes, there are no side effects. 2016-07-29T18:09:25Z Bike: oh. you mean since it's a test. 2016-07-29T18:09:25Z phoe: But I'd like to know whether there was 1 or 10 failed tests. 2016-07-29T18:09:44Z Bike: that would make more sense if EVERY didn't also short circuit 2016-07-29T18:09:48Z Josh3 joined #lisp 2016-07-29T18:09:55Z phoe: wait 2016-07-29T18:10:06Z phoe: ... 2016-07-29T18:10:07Z Bike: i mean, everything is still evaluated, but "every returns false as soon as any invocation of predicate returns false" 2016-07-29T18:10:17Z phoe <- silly 2016-07-29T18:10:37Z Bike: if you're doing a test, you don't want just a conjunction, anyway, you want to record which forms returned false 2016-07-29T18:10:54Z Bike: does that explain your "bug in every" or was that something else? 2016-07-29T18:11:41Z Josh2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-07-29T18:11:41Z Josh3 is now known as Josh2 2016-07-29T18:14:49Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-07-29T18:15:37Z phoe: It does explain me being silly. 2016-07-29T18:21:26Z pierpa: if you want to know "how many", what about COUNT ? 2016-07-29T18:22:08Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-07-29T18:23:24Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-07-29T18:25:10Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-07-29T18:29:29Z didi joined #lisp 2016-07-29T18:30:35Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-07-29T18:30:40Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-07-29T18:31:28Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-07-29T18:33:32Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-07-29T18:33:48Z didi: I can PUSH to a hash-table key if the value of that key is a list (push value1 (gethash key hash-table)). How can I do the same thing to an alist? e.g. (push value1 (assoc key alist)) => ((key . (value1))), (push value2 (assoc key alist)) => ((key . (value1 value2))) 2016-07-29T18:35:10Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-07-29T18:38:40Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-07-29T18:39:01Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-07-29T18:40:20Z Bike: assoc isn't a place, so it doesn't work 2016-07-29T18:40:26Z Bike: but you can use alexandria:assoc-value 2016-07-29T18:40:28Z didi: Indeed. 2016-07-29T18:40:34Z Bike: which is a place 2016-07-29T18:40:34Z didi: Bike: Ah, thank you. 2016-07-29T18:40:38Z Bike: or write it yourself, of course 2016-07-29T18:40:42Z didi: Sure. 2016-07-29T18:41:49Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2016-07-29T18:42:04Z ggole: How does that work with an empty list? 2016-07-29T18:42:39Z narendraj9 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-07-29T18:43:59Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-07-29T18:44:52Z Bike: (push x (assoc-value alist key)) expands to more or less (let ((entry (assoc key alist))) (if entry (setf (cdr entry) (cons x (cdr entry))) (setf alist (acons key (list x) alist)))) 2016-07-29T18:45:24Z Bike: it works on empty lists the obvious way. (key . ()) becomes (key . (value)) 2016-07-29T18:45:25Z ggole: Oh of course, alist is itself a place 2016-07-29T18:45:49Z ggole: I was thinking "can't append to null in place" 2016-07-29T18:46:19Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-07-29T18:46:49Z warweasle quit (Quit: gotta to) 2016-07-29T18:48:07Z Bike: actually, if the key is already in the alist, didi, (push x (cdr (assoc item alist))) should work. doy 2016-07-29T18:48:41Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-07-29T18:50:08Z didi: Bike: Heh, true. But I was thinking of mimicking a hash-table, so I would like to push even if the key is not there yet or the alist is an empty list. 2016-07-29T18:50:18Z Bike: oh. well, there you go then. 2016-07-29T18:50:28Z didi: :-) 2016-07-29T18:50:43Z ggole: I'd be a bit nervous about stomping on quoted list structure with that, too 2016-07-29T18:50:58Z ggole: Quoted alists being pretty common 2016-07-29T18:51:09Z didi: In my case, I am generating the alist. 2016-07-29T18:51:31Z przl joined #lisp 2016-07-29T18:51:49Z didi: (let (alist) (collect-stuff ...) alist) 2016-07-29T18:54:06Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-07-29T18:55:13Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-07-29T18:55:19Z didi: Also, when mutation is involved, a common idiom I use is (let ((x ...)) (mutate x) ... x). Is there a form that I can use that reduces it to something like (let-and-return (x ...) (mutate x) ...) => x ;mutated x 2016-07-29T18:55:57Z Bike: what is the first ..., exactly? 2016-07-29T18:56:10Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-07-29T18:56:24Z didi: Bike: Just generating x. Say, MAKE-HASH-TABLE. 2016-07-29T18:56:37Z didi: I do this a lot with hash-tables. 2016-07-29T18:56:44Z ggole: didi: you could write a macro, but I think the first is just fine 2016-07-29T18:56:54Z didi: ggole: I do too. Just curious. 2016-07-29T19:01:23Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-07-29T19:02:33Z Orion3k quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-07-29T19:08:19Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-07-29T19:09:47Z gargaml quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-07-29T19:11:24Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2016-07-29T19:13:06Z maucar joined #lisp 2016-07-29T19:14:09Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-07-29T19:14:44Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-07-29T19:15:10Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-07-29T19:17:21Z burtons quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Well I guess that only solves one of your problems 2016-07-29T19:44:45Z didi: :-P 2016-07-29T19:45:08Z dlowe: my advice is to take that let statement and make it a function with arguments instead. 2016-07-29T19:45:47Z didi: dlowe: I will still have to put the hash-table as the last element of the form, right? 2016-07-29T19:45:49Z dlowe: unless it's actually creating the object, then I think (let ((x ...) (init x) x) is pretty normal 2016-07-29T19:45:58Z dlowe: (with correct balancing) 2016-07-29T19:47:14Z broken_clock joined #lisp 2016-07-29T19:53:33Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-07-29T19:55:55Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-07-29T20:06:55Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-07-29T20:09:12Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-07-29T20:09:14Z rumbler31 quit (Client Quit) 2016-07-29T20:09:33Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-07-29T20:14:22Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2016-07-29T20:19:47Z isakovic quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-07-29T20:35:02Z grimsley joined #lisp 2016-07-29T20:39:52Z gilez quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-07-29T20:55:39Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-07-29T20:57:45Z geniis joined #lisp 2016-07-29T20:59:25Z bullets joined #lisp 2016-07-29T21:01:20Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-07-29T21:01:25Z geniis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-07-29T21:01:46Z geniis joined #lisp 2016-07-29T21:02:49Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-07-29T21:04:35Z burtons joined #lisp 2016-07-29T21:08:19Z prole joined #lisp 2016-07-29T21:11:50Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-07-29T21:12:23Z ggole quit 2016-07-29T21:13:05Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-07-29T21:16:13Z burtons quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-07-29T21:17:40Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-07-29T21:17:45Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-07-29T21:19:05Z bullets quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-07-29T21:19:17Z WojciechK quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-07-29T21:19:37Z pmc joined #lisp 2016-07-29T21:21:27Z pmc: Anyone familiar with Graham's ANSI Common Lisp? On page 356 operator assoc-if-not has the tag "[Function]" so does operator "set" on page 343. Does anyone know the what "[Function]" in backets means? 2016-07-29T21:21:32Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-07-29T21:21:49Z geniis quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-07-29T21:22:39Z Bike: i don't know the book, but i would presume it means that the operator is a function, rather than a macro or special. 2016-07-29T21:23:10Z rumbler31 quit 2016-07-29T21:24:10Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-07-29T21:24:15Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-07-29T21:24:25Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-07-29T21:24:46Z pmc: ok, most of the entries say "Function" without the brackets, I was wondering about "[Function]" maybe a mis-print. 2016-07-29T21:25:25Z pmc: ie, if it is a macro or special operator it says "Macro" "Special Operator", respectively. 2016-07-29T21:27:10Z phoe: Is setf destructurable? 2016-07-29T21:27:21Z Bike: pmc: if the only difference is the brackets i wouldn't sweat it. 2016-07-29T21:27:29Z phoe: Other than through VALUES? 2016-07-29T21:27:31Z Bike: phoe: meaning like destructuring-bind? nope 2016-07-29T21:29:38Z sevenless joined #lisp 2016-07-29T21:29:56Z sevenless: Hi #lisp. 2016-07-29T21:31:14Z rme: pmc: It looks to me like the square bracket notation, e.g. [Function], indicates that the item in question is deprecated by the standard. 2016-07-29T21:31:16Z pierpa: pmc: maybe it means that it is a deprecated function 2016-07-29T21:31:45Z pmc: rme, pierpa: thanks! 2016-07-29T21:33:33Z rme: I know of nobody who pays any attention to those deprecation noticies, especially for the -if-not variants of several functions. (But I don't know everybody, of course.) 2016-07-29T21:35:04Z pierpa: agreed 2016-07-29T21:35:13Z kokonaisluku joined #lisp 2016-07-29T21:37:42Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-07-29T21:39:38Z Bike: assoc-if-not and especially set are less used than, say, remove-if-not, though 2016-07-29T21:40:00Z phoe: Hey sevenless 2016-07-29T21:40:05Z phoe: Bike: thanks. 2016-07-29T21:41:08Z sevenless: Hey phoe. I implemented Peter Norvig's simple Python lisp interpreter today 2016-07-29T21:41:14Z sevenless: Pretty cool to understand how it works! 2016-07-29T21:41:23Z phoe: Yay! 2016-07-29T21:41:33Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-07-29T21:41:41Z phoe: I achieved a similar thing in Haskell with only The Roots Of Lisp article. 2016-07-29T21:41:54Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe-krk/malish 2016-07-29T21:41:56Z phoe: Buggy as hell. 2016-07-29T21:41:57Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-07-29T21:41:57Z phoe: But it works! 2016-07-29T21:42:12Z pmc: I have a C implementation of the Roots of Lisp -- still under constuction but the parser is done. 2016-07-29T21:42:15Z phoe: And Polish comments everywhere. 2016-07-29T21:42:40Z sevenless: Interesting! 2016-07-29T21:42:51Z sevenless: I was thinking of writing it in C as well. 2016-07-29T21:42:51Z phoe: This was one enlightening experience, to write my own basicmost Lisp. 2016-07-29T21:43:11Z mr_yogurt_ is now known as mr_yogurt 2016-07-29T21:43:12Z phoe: Lines 94 to 97 took me four freaking God damn hours to get right. 2016-07-29T21:43:24Z sevenless: in Main.hs? 2016-07-29T21:43:25Z phoe: That's one line per hour. 2016-07-29T21:43:26Z phoe: Yes. 2016-07-29T21:43:45Z sevenless: In C, I think I'd parse it into a linked list? 2016-07-29T21:43:51Z sevenless: And then just pop from the start? 2016-07-29T21:43:54Z phoe: The heart of whole parser. 2016-07-29T21:44:07Z sevenless: Oh, that's terse! 2016-07-29T21:44:19Z pmc: yeah a linked list (box notation). 2016-07-29T21:44:36Z pmc: more of a tree than a list 2016-07-29T21:44:44Z phoe: That *is* terse. HahahahaHaskell. 2016-07-29T21:45:10Z phoe: But hey, I squeezed 50% of TROL Lisp into one EVAL function. 2016-07-29T21:45:24Z phoe: Lines 145-221. 2016-07-29T21:46:05Z sevenless: Actually, is that lisp enough to write a lisp in it? Sorry, that sounds ridiculous. 2016-07-29T21:46:25Z phoe: I mean, um. 2016-07-29T21:46:28Z phoe: Is what Lisp enough? 2016-07-29T21:46:45Z sevenless: You can write a Lisp interpreter in Lisp. 2016-07-29T21:46:53Z Bike: looks like it has enough operators, sure. 2016-07-29T21:46:56Z phoe: Yes, I can. 2016-07-29T21:46:59Z phoe: And, umm. 2016-07-29T21:47:04Z Bike: be a huge pain in the ass, but o well 2016-07-29T21:47:31Z phoe: I do not have LABEL yet. 2016-07-29T21:47:36Z phoe: But I have lambda. 2016-07-29T21:47:37Z failproofshark: you can write a lisp interpreter in TeX 2016-07-29T21:47:42Z phoe: So I can create an Y combinator. 2016-07-29T21:47:58Z phoe: And, using this, create that huge Lisp interpreter in my Lisp. 2016-07-29T21:48:11Z phoe: So, yay, it's technically complete. 2016-07-29T21:48:22Z burtons joined #lisp 2016-07-29T21:48:43Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-07-29T21:48:46Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-07-29T21:48:55Z phoe: It will be fun to finish this project someday. 2016-07-29T21:49:03Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-07-29T21:49:05Z phoe: And equip it with a Lisp interpreter inside a Lisp interpreter. 2016-07-29T21:49:09Z sevenless: What's a Y combinator? 2016-07-29T21:49:12Z sevenless: Sorry 2016-07-29T21:49:25Z phoe: sevenless: basically. 2016-07-29T21:49:40Z phoe: It's a function that grabs one function and turns it into its recursive version. 2016-07-29T21:49:42Z Bike: it's a type of fixed point combinator, which is a function "Y" such that Y(g) = g(Y(G)) 2016-07-29T21:49:50Z Bike: which you can use to define recursive functions. 2016-07-29T21:51:52Z jsmith_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-07-29T21:52:25Z jsmith_ joined #lisp 2016-07-29T21:53:15Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-07-29T21:55:01Z sondr3_ quit (Quit: Quit) 2016-07-29T21:55:09Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-07-29T21:55:21Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2016-07-29T21:55:55Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-07-29T21:56:54Z jsmith_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-07-29T21:58:52Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2016-07-29T22:01:18Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-07-29T22:02:11Z kokonaisluku left #lisp 2016-07-29T22:02:18Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-07-29T22:03:40Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-07-29T22:04:40Z phoe: Niiiight 2016-07-29T22:05:19Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-07-29T22:05:34Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-07-29T22:05:37Z pmc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-07-29T22:05:53Z phoe: playing with S-expressions is soo fuuuuuunnnn 2016-07-29T22:06:12Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-07-29T22:06:25Z phoe: no wonder people went so crazy over JSON once they decided to reinvent Lisp syntax* 2016-07-29T22:06:28Z phoe: *again 2016-07-29T22:06:32Z ekinmur quit (Client Quit) 2016-07-29T22:07:52Z burtons quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-07-29T22:09:21Z rpg: JSON is like a lisp where you have no idea what's true and what's not ;-) 2016-07-29T22:09:38Z pillton: That is false. 2016-07-29T22:10:06Z pillton: Good moaning. 2016-07-29T22:11:43Z didi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-07-29T22:12:12Z sevenless: phoe: ECMAscript was an underhanded way of writing Lisp when the managers told them to write something that looked like Java wasn't it 2016-07-29T22:12:55Z totimkopf: JS is Lisp ? 2016-07-29T22:13:26Z rpg: So Crockford says. There's a difference of opinion about this. 2016-07-29T22:13:58Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-07-29T22:15:17Z sevenless: I program in R 2016-07-29T22:15:22Z sevenless: and R is also basically Lisp 2016-07-29T22:16:51Z quasus joined #lisp 2016-07-29T22:24:50Z pierpa: for an elastic enough definition of 'basically' 2016-07-29T22:34:47Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-07-29T22:35:11Z broken_clock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-07-29T22:38:47Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-07-29T22:41:20Z dfigrish: Suppose you know everything about programming and even about IT at all and have reached absolute enlightment. What next? 2016-07-29T22:43:20Z Bike: open a hot dog shack on the beach 2016-07-29T22:43:30Z deank joined #lisp 2016-07-29T22:44:03Z dfigrish: and forget about programming and IT at all :-) 2016-07-29T22:45:05Z rme quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-07-29T22:45:18Z rme joined #lisp 2016-07-29T22:45:30Z m_zr0_ joined #lisp 2016-07-29T22:46:17Z Bike: i think after vidhya you'd probably want satori or something 2016-07-29T22:46:19Z rme quit (Ping timeout: 184 seconds) 2016-07-29T22:46:33Z m_zr0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-07-29T22:48:09Z dainis joined #lisp 2016-07-29T22:48:41Z dfigrish: when I see how people write 100500 implementation of own Lisp for better understanding I ask myself why? 2016-07-29T22:48:58Z dfigrish: why I ask myself? 2016-07-29T22:49:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: sevenless: everything language is lisp which means that none of them are 2016-07-29T22:49:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: every language* 2016-07-29T22:50:20Z sevenless: Petit_Dejeuner: R is really built on S-expressions though 2016-07-29T22:50:32Z totimkopf: every language wishes it were lisp 2016-07-29T22:50:46Z sevenless: like, it's homoiconic 2016-07-29T22:50:54Z sevenless: and no 2016-07-29T22:51:39Z Bike: dfigrish: same reason you do a bunch of trashy math problems. helps you learn. don't have to call it "enlightenment" or anything 2016-07-29T22:52:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: sevenless: most languages are built on an abstract syntax tree 2016-07-29T22:52:31Z rme: Even years later, I remember Calculus II. So, so many integrals. 2016-07-29T22:52:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: Bike: "trashy" Woah, some of them are really good. 2016-07-29T22:52:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: rme: multivar? 2016-07-29T22:52:45Z rme: So many trashy integrals. 2016-07-29T22:52:48Z Bike: actually algebra is bad 2016-07-29T22:52:56Z pillton: What? 2016-07-29T22:53:01Z pillton: Take that back. 2016-07-29T22:53:05Z Bike: many of my early programming experiences were convincing my calculator to do my homework for me 2016-07-29T22:53:22Z pillton: Good man. 2016-07-29T22:53:25Z totimkopf: TI basic? 2016-07-29T22:53:39Z Bike: casio was way cheaper 2016-07-29T22:53:48Z Petit_Dejeuner: Bike: It sucks losing your graphing calculator when matrix assignments are due. 2016-07-29T22:54:00Z totimkopf: TI is basically the Apple of the calculator world 2016-07-29T22:54:10Z dfigrish: Bike: but as I already asked, suppose you know everything about IT, or math or anything else. What next? 2016-07-29T22:54:12Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-07-29T22:54:17Z dfigrish: what the goal? 2016-07-29T22:54:19Z Petit_Dejeuner: dfigrish: physics, chemistry 2016-07-29T22:54:22Z pillton: It is impossible. 2016-07-29T22:54:26Z Bike: ask a priest 2016-07-29T22:54:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: or a rabbi 2016-07-29T22:54:34Z pillton: You can't learn everything. 2016-07-29T22:54:42Z Petit_Dejeuner: craft long, life short 2016-07-29T22:54:45Z Bike: "priest" in a nonspecific denominational way 2016-07-29T22:55:09Z dfigrish: pillton: so why I need to learn something then? 2016-07-29T22:55:10Z totimkopf: ask a shaman 2016-07-29T22:55:21Z dfigrish: :-) 2016-07-29T22:55:27Z totimkopf: we don't need to know anything 2016-07-29T22:55:38Z dwchandler: ask a buddhist 2016-07-29T22:55:40Z totimkopf: it's okay to not know stuffs 2016-07-29T22:55:50Z totimkopf: ask my cat, she doesn't know stuffs and she's perfectly content 2016-07-29T22:55:58Z Petit_Dejeuner: Bike: good, now use the following terms "adhesive bandage", "search engine", and "tissue paper" instead of "bandaid", "google", and "kleenex" and you'll be off to a good start 2016-07-29T22:56:22Z dfigrish: well, nobody knows "why". ok :) 2016-07-29T22:56:42Z dwchandler: dfigrish: there is no "why" 2016-07-29T22:56:45Z pillton: Why? It is simple. Our current instance of civilisation requires it. 2016-07-29T22:57:09Z pillton: It is a question of social average. 2016-07-29T22:57:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: you can't force people to keep your values if you don't have power and power can be gained from knowledge 2016-07-29T22:57:37Z dfigrish: pillton: do you mean our current business? 2016-07-29T22:57:53Z pillton: Business relies on civilisation. 2016-07-29T22:58:13Z Petit_Dejeuner: civilization's a pretty cool guy 2016-07-29T22:59:48Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-07-29T22:59:54Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-07-29T23:02:43Z dfigrish: pillton: so, everybody need to learn and learn and learn just to be useful for civilisation? 2016-07-29T23:02:46Z Bike: i mean, seriously, if you're looking for reasons to live, people on IRC would be really low on my list of people to ask 2016-07-29T23:03:27Z dfigrish: Bike: I just ask because the Lisp programmers are smart (as I know) ;-) 2016-07-29T23:04:04Z Bike: there are different kinds of smart. gödel was a genius and he died because he refused to eat anything other than his hospitalized wife's food 2016-07-29T23:05:15Z dfigrish: Bike: interesting 2016-07-29T23:07:08Z pillton: Bike: Who would you ask? 2016-07-29T23:07:55Z Bike: priest or appropriate secular or alternately religious figure in roughly analogous social role not usually referred to as a 'priest' 2016-07-29T23:10:14Z pillton: Interesting. 2016-07-29T23:11:53Z vibs29 joined #lisp 2016-07-29T23:12:46Z Petit_Dejeuner: like a lawyer 2016-07-29T23:14:11Z Bike: it is, anyway, pretty off topic. this is the channel where we opine about how textual representations of submachines implementing computable functions should be thrown or not into the yawning chasm of execution 2016-07-29T23:17:35Z pillton: Does the function meaning-of-life halt? :) 2016-07-29T23:17:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: undecideable 2016-07-29T23:18:03Z dfigrish: Bike: but sometimes why not talk about more global problems? :-) 2016-07-29T23:18:17Z dfigrish: pillton: the behaviour is undefined :) 2016-07-29T23:18:26Z Bike: because this abyss has rules, consarnit. 2016-07-29T23:18:26Z sevenless: pillton: 42. 2016-07-29T23:19:18Z dfigrish: Bike: well, rules, constraints, restraints, I see :) 2016-07-29T23:19:46Z Petit_Dejeuner: rules upon rules 2016-07-29T23:19:48Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-07-29T23:19:48Z Petit_Dejeuner: metaprogramming 2016-07-29T23:23:48Z cinap_lenrek joined #lisp 2016-07-29T23:24:08Z cinap_lenrek left #lisp 2016-07-29T23:27:41Z edgar-rft: metaprogramming needs metarules 2016-07-29T23:28:52Z dfigrish: btw, it would be interesting to ask the AI someday. But there is no warranty that AI will tell me the truth 2016-07-29T23:31:45Z dfigrish: nice to talk here, but have to go. good night! 2016-07-29T23:32:30Z dfigrish quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 25.1.50.1) 2016-07-29T23:36:45Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-07-29T23:40:44Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-07-29T23:43:03Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-07-29T23:43:31Z vibs29 left #lisp 2016-07-29T23:47:34Z jdz joined #lisp 2016-07-29T23:47:53Z prole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-07-29T23:48:30Z rpg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)