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2016-07-24T07:38:06Z beach: Correct me if I am wrong: Calling either (SIN X), (COS X), or (SQRT X), when given an X of some float type τ always return a float type τ, and never signal an error.
2016-07-24T07:38:38Z beach: Er, for SQRT, X has to be non-negative.
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2016-07-24T07:41:09Z Bike: i'm not sure that they couldn't technically return a rational, though it's hard to imagine that practially happening
2016-07-24T07:41:29Z beach: I don't think the Common Lisp HyperSpec allows that.
2016-07-24T07:41:39Z Bike: clhs 12.1.3.3
2016-07-24T07:41:39Z specbot: Rule of Float Substitutability: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/12_acc.htm
2016-07-24T07:41:46Z Bike: i don't see anything analogous for floating arguments.
2016-07-24T07:42:22Z beach: Ah, I see.
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2016-07-24T07:44:05Z Bike: the clhs for trig also mentions that they "might signal arithmetic-error", i guess that could happen with (tan (/ pi 2)) or something?
2016-07-24T07:44:12Z beach: Is it allowed for a function such as SIN to return a float of a different precision from its argument?
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2016-07-24T07:44:34Z beach: Yes, TAN can overflow
2016-07-24T07:44:43Z Bike: oh, you didn't say tan, sorry.
2016-07-24T07:45:00Z beach: Right, only SIN, COS, and SQRT.
2016-07-24T07:45:30Z Bike: presumably because none of them have asymptotes or branch cuts
2016-07-24T07:45:50Z Bike: as for the other thing
2016-07-24T07:45:53Z Bike: clhs 12.1.4.4
2016-07-24T07:45:53Z specbot: Rule of Float Precision Contagion: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/12_add.htm
2016-07-24T07:46:14Z Bike: so, no
2016-07-24T07:47:04Z beach: Yes, thanks.
2016-07-24T07:47:06Z Bike: oh, wait, sqrt does have a branch cut, doesn't it. complex analysis is hard
2016-07-24T07:47:16Z Bike: not that it matters for real arguments very much
2016-07-24T07:48:09Z beach: I stipulate that X is non-negative for SQRT.
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2016-07-24T11:17:22Z ecclesia: so I heard on #emacs that #lisp hates Paul Grahams book, "On Lisp" referring to it as "unidiomatic" which book would you recommen in its place?
2016-07-24T11:17:37Z beach: It's a fine book.
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2016-07-24T11:20:59Z beach: ... and there is nothing else discussing that advanced macrology.
2016-07-24T11:21:33Z beach: His style is sometimes a bit quirky, but you can easily compensate for that, at least over time as you learn more conventions.
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2016-07-24T11:25:07Z shka: hi all
2016-07-24T11:25:20Z beach: Hello shka.
2016-07-24T11:25:26Z shka: how are you?
2016-07-24T11:25:39Z beach: Me?  Fine as usual.  And you?
2016-07-24T11:26:08Z shka: ecclesia: On Lisp is hard to read IMHO but ideas presented are worth knowning
2016-07-24T11:26:26Z shka: beach: fighting lazyness and reading CFFI manual
2016-07-24T11:26:47Z shka: trying to figure out basic things, like where c libs should be located
2016-07-24T11:26:57Z shka: also, Miles Davis
2016-07-24T11:27:02Z shka: good sunday :-)
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2016-07-24T11:28:14Z shka: ecclesia: let over lambdas is considered more advanced that on lisp, but writing is way easier to understand
2016-07-24T11:28:23Z beach: Miles Davis sounds good.  Not the rest.
2016-07-24T11:28:44Z shka: it's ok, that's how we learn
2016-07-24T11:29:38Z beach: As I recall, Let over Lambda uses some undefined constructs that are often asked about here.  About how backquote is implemented as I recall.
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2016-07-24T13:19:11Z phoe: ^
2016-07-24T13:19:30Z phoe: There's that problem that was pointed out to me, about backquote.
2016-07-24T13:20:34Z phoe: For example, '`,X when read in SBCL does not create something akin to (BACKQUOTE (UNQUOTE (X))).
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2016-07-24T13:20:49Z phoe: Rather, (UNQUOTE (X)) is implemented as a structure - not a tree of conses.
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2016-07-24T13:21:51Z phoe: One can check it out on their own Lisp by doing '`,x and trying to poke into this with CAR and CDR.
2016-07-24T13:22:08Z phoe: Trying CAR on ,X alone gives me a "The value ,X is not of type LIST." on SBCL.
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2016-07-24T15:42:47Z shka: phoe: i stumbled upon this before
2016-07-24T15:43:01Z phoe: shka: ayup
2016-07-24T15:43:07Z shka: i believe that this is correct behaviour, though
2016-07-24T15:44:13Z shka: to overcome this i had to write crap like this:
2016-07-24T15:45:43Z prole: how can you put a comma without backquote?
2016-07-24T15:45:59Z prole: (car ,x) -> comma not inside a backquote
2016-07-24T15:47:13Z ggole: '`(,x) or something like that
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2016-07-24T15:47:24Z shka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/321285
2016-07-24T15:48:06Z shka: phoe: it is not cool at all
2016-07-24T15:49:37Z phoe: ^
2016-07-24T15:49:40Z phoe: prole: oh, right
2016-07-24T15:50:00Z phoe: (cdr `',x)
2016-07-24T15:50:01Z prole: shka: why is there a backquote inside a backquote?
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2016-07-24T15:50:59Z shka: prole: because of some overcomplicated metaprogramming that i did back then
2016-07-24T15:51:20Z prole: (I'm a noob between)
2016-07-24T15:51:29Z shka: it required multiple evaluation steps
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2016-07-24T15:52:08Z shka: prole: esentially, this is function that is used by macro to expand body
2016-07-24T15:52:30Z shka: i like it this way because i found it to be a little easier to understand
2016-07-24T15:52:45Z shka: and you can even try to write some kind of unit test
2016-07-24T15:53:17Z prole: shka: Well, I just never though you could nest the backquote and do something right
2016-07-24T15:53:21Z prole: thought*
2016-07-24T15:53:49Z shka: well, this example is not something that is quite right ;-)
2016-07-24T15:54:01Z shka: but it works so yay, i guess
2016-07-24T15:54:28Z shka: and in fact given use case, it is probabbly good enough…
2016-07-24T15:54:57Z prole: I should change my lastname to goodenough. It resumes my whole life
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2016-07-24T15:56:46Z shka: prole: it is way better than notgoodenough! ;-)
2016-07-24T15:57:11Z shka: ok, folks: i need to create QVector template instance with commonqt
2016-07-24T15:57:32Z prole: shka: hahaha
2016-07-24T15:57:48Z shka: namely: QVector<QPointF>
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2016-07-24T15:58:09Z shka: and i have no idea how :/
2016-07-24T16:00:47Z shka: i'm under the impression that it may be not even supported
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2016-07-24T16:55:39Z phoe: I have a question about #'ED.
2016-07-24T16:56:31Z phoe: How can I actually tell my Lisp (SBCL) to open files inside the same Emacs it's connected to through SLIME?
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2016-07-24T17:01:45Z heddwch: start an emacs server and emacsclient
2016-07-24T17:01:51Z heddwch: use emacsclient*
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2016-07-24T17:03:27Z scymtym_: phoe: for sbcl, (push (lambda (&optional what) (swank:ed-in-emacs what) t) sb-ext:*ed-functions*) and customize slime-ed-use-dedicated-frame as desired
2016-07-24T17:03:38Z phoe: scymtym_: thanks!
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2016-07-24T17:08:00Z heddwch: oh, sorry, wasn't aware of that >_>
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2016-07-24T18:29:27Z JustinHitla: you can't catch me
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2016-07-24T18:34:37Z shymega: urgh
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2016-07-24T18:43:13Z phoe: there needs to be an alert-the-mods button on #lisp methinks
2016-07-24T18:43:26Z heddwch: For?
2016-07-24T18:43:53Z phoe: minor annoyances.
2016-07-24T18:44:28Z phoe: and major ones - not like I've seen one happen around here, luckily.
2016-07-24T18:44:36Z sweater quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-07-24T18:44:47Z shymega: not just yet, anyway :)
2016-07-24T18:44:49Z heddwch: ah
2016-07-24T18:44:55Z phoe: ayup
2016-07-24T18:44:57Z heddwch watches shymega carefully
2016-07-24T18:45:03Z phoe: uh oh
2016-07-24T18:45:04Z shymega: :(
2016-07-24T18:45:11Z phoe: protective parentheses power - activate!
2016-07-24T18:45:17Z shymega: wait, we can get those?
2016-07-24T18:45:17Z phoe turns shymega into (shymega)
2016-07-24T18:45:31Z phoe: yes, you can get those
2016-07-24T18:45:34Z shymega: nice
2016-07-24T18:45:38Z phoe: fire up a CL Repl
2016-07-24T18:45:40Z shymega: :P
2016-07-24T18:45:41Z phoe: okay?
2016-07-24T18:45:44Z shymega: gotcha
2016-07-24T18:45:49Z phoe: type 'SHYMEGA and hit Enter
2016-07-24T18:45:54Z phoe: got it?
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2016-07-24T18:46:00Z shymega: loud and clear
2016-07-24T18:46:04Z phoe: now - repeatedly type / and hit Enter, repeat a few times
2016-07-24T18:46:13Z shymega: haha!
2016-07-24T18:46:15Z phoe: is a shortcut for protective parentheses power, and it stacks
2016-07-24T18:46:18Z shymega: Today I learned
2016-07-24T18:46:24Z shymega: thanks for the tip, phoe
2016-07-24T18:46:34Z phoe: the / key is so close to Enter so you can one-hand it just in case
2016-07-24T18:46:39Z shymega: indeed
2016-07-24T18:47:35Z phoe: it's a little-known feature of Common Lisp REPL
2016-07-24T18:47:42Z shymega: evidently so
2016-07-24T18:47:45Z shymega: pretty cool though
2016-07-24T18:47:46Z phoe: also known as the beautify operator
2016-07-24T18:47:53Z shymega: ah, i ee
2016-07-24T18:47:54Z shymega: oops
2016-07-24T18:47:57Z shymega: *see
2016-07-24T18:48:04Z phoe: following the 5th Lisp Theorem that states "if it's ugly, add parens"
2016-07-24T18:48:15Z shymega: to me, sounds like a good way to live by
2016-07-24T18:48:53Z phoe: of course there are sects that modify and transcribe the theorems
2016-07-24T18:49:04Z phoe: like Clojurists, they also allow brackets and braces
2016-07-24T18:49:29Z shymega: right
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2016-07-24T19:13:29Z didi: Why doesn't (dotimes (i 42) do) throw an error? I expected some kind of error because of `do'.
2016-07-24T19:14:16Z phoe: clhs dotimes
2016-07-24T19:14:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_dotime.htm
2016-07-24T19:14:27Z Bike: ah, heh, it's a tagbody tag.
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2016-07-24T19:15:19Z dfigrish: well, hi
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2016-07-24T19:15:28Z didi: Oh, interesting. I don't know tagbody. I will read on it. Thank you.
2016-07-24T19:15:46Z phoe: (dotimes (i 42) loop for i = 3 then osdsifhskjdhsdg finally return 42)
2016-07-24T19:15:49Z phoe: this is amusing
2016-07-24T19:15:56Z phoe: it actually doesn't err out
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2016-07-24T19:16:52Z dfigrish: phoe: what is osdsifhskjdhsdg?
2016-07-24T19:17:03Z phoe: dfigrish: it's woeufhijdgbskdjgh
2016-07-24T19:17:15Z phoe: the pseudorandom function of my fingers on my keyboard
2016-07-24T19:17:28Z dfigrish: phoe: uh, nice function :)
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2016-07-24T19:20:30Z Bike: the point is that any number of atoms are basically ignored, because if they're symbols or numbers they're treated as go tags (and anything else is self evaluating), and there's no code to make the go tags matter
2016-07-24T19:20:53Z ggole: Implicit tagbody isn't really such a great idea.
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2016-07-24T19:21:33Z phoe: ggole: I really didn't think of this. Like, uh, putting non-lists inside dotimes's body.
2016-07-24T19:23:00Z didi: TIL I can rotatef whole vectors at once. Nice.
2016-07-24T19:23:03Z Grue`: "Implicit tagbody considered harmful" -- Edsger Dijkstra
2016-07-24T19:23:11Z phoe: Grue`: XDD
2016-07-24T19:23:23Z phoe: now I have my spit all over my keyboard
2016-07-24T19:23:23Z phoe: thanks
2016-07-24T19:23:32Z ggole: Hmm, what's a legal tag? Just integers and symbols?
2016-07-24T19:23:35Z didi: Bike: Thank you.
2016-07-24T19:23:44Z Bike: what?
2016-07-24T19:23:51Z didi: Fr the explanation.
2016-07-24T19:23:53Z didi: For*
2016-07-24T19:23:59Z Bike: oh, k
2016-07-24T19:24:03Z Bike: ggole: yes
2016-07-24T19:26:13Z Bike: the implicit tagbody-ness doesn't come up much, since there's not much reason to leave symbols and integers alone in a dowhatever form. a symbol macro, maybe
2016-07-24T19:26:28Z Bike: but a side effectful symbol macro expansion seems kinda gross
2016-07-24T19:27:41Z ggole: And quoted (or many-quoted) symbols seem to work too (in SBCL)
2016-07-24T19:27:52Z ggole: Other atoms cause an error.
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2016-07-24T19:28:19Z phoe: ggole: uh. 3 doesn't err out.
2016-07-24T19:28:26Z ggole: 3 is a legal tag.
2016-07-24T19:28:29Z ggole: 1/3 is not.
2016-07-24T19:28:32Z phoe: Oh! Right.
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2016-07-24T19:29:51Z Bike: a quoted symbol will not be a go tag, it will be a form (which has no side effects and its return va lue ignored, so you don't notice)
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2016-07-24T19:30:00Z ggole wonders whether that is one of the things that was brought in for compatibility with some ancient Lisp
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2016-07-24T19:30:03Z phoe: Bike: haha!
2016-07-24T19:30:18Z phoe: Right, 'X will be (quote X) which will return X and have absolutely no side effects!
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2016-07-24T19:30:28Z phoe: Because it's not a symbol, it's a list - and hence will be evaluated.
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2016-07-24T19:30:32Z Bike: and (dotimes (i 42) 'do (go 'do)) is an error
2016-07-24T19:30:43Z ggole: Ah, right
2016-07-24T19:30:45Z phoe: Bike: because there's no do tag.
2016-07-24T19:30:53Z phoe: And, uh, 'do is not a valid tag either.
2016-07-24T19:30:56Z Bike: because there's no (quote do) tag
2016-07-24T19:31:12Z Xach: do be do be do
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2016-07-24T19:39:14Z didi: I have two vectors, v0 and v1,  with the same length. I want to copy the values from v1 to v0. Which one would be more efficient: (dotimes (i (length v1)) (setf (svref v0 i) (svref v1 i))), (rotatef v0 v1), (map-into v0 #'identity v1) ?
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2016-07-24T19:40:21Z Bike: clhs replace
2016-07-24T19:40:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_replac.htm
2016-07-24T19:40:36Z didi: Niiice.
2016-07-24T19:40:42Z didi: Thank you, Bike.
2016-07-24T19:40:50Z Bike: also, that rotatef doesn't actually touch the vectors, just swaps their names, so to speak.
2016-07-24T19:41:03Z didi: Bike: Interesting...
2016-07-24T19:41:08Z Bike: if that's okay for whatever you're doing, it will almost certainly be fastest.
2016-07-24T19:41:25Z didi: My algorithm works, but now I don't know how.
2016-07-24T19:41:35Z didi: :-)
2016-07-24T19:41:40Z Bike: well, also it SWAPS them, not copies v1 over v0, which would just be (setf v0 v1)
2016-07-24T19:41:58Z didi: Hummmm
2016-07-24T19:43:16Z didi: (setf v0 v1) doesn't work for me because I need two independent vectors.
2016-07-24T19:43:38Z Bike: actually copying over the elements wouldn't work either, then
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2016-07-24T19:44:00Z didi: How come?
2016-07-24T19:44:18Z Bike: because then the vectors would have the same elements, of course
2016-07-24T19:44:27Z didi: Nah, they are integers.
2016-07-24T19:44:28Z Bike: or is that not what you meant by "independent"
2016-07-24T19:44:47Z didi: The elements, I mean.
2016-07-24T19:44:57Z Bike: when you put "vector" and "independence" next to each other, i do not think first of computer side effects
2016-07-24T19:44:57Z didi: I guess not.
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2016-07-24T19:45:10Z didi: Curious.
2016-07-24T19:45:49Z didi: Anyway, TIL `replace'. Thank you, Bike.
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2016-07-24T20:06:10Z vydd: Xach: hey, when is the next quicklisp release?
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2016-07-24T20:32:29Z phoe: Xach: umm, I'll join the question. Is it possible and/or proper for https://github.com/phoe-krk/pseudonyms to land in Quicklisp?
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2016-07-24T20:41:40Z PuercoPop: phoe: to request inclusion on ql you have to open an issue on https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects
2016-07-24T20:41:52Z phoe: PuercoPop: okay!
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2016-07-24T21:28:05Z prole: l
2016-07-24T21:34:01Z phoe: i
2016-07-24T21:35:01Z heddwch: r
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2016-07-24T22:56:43Z didi`: Sanity check: `find' doesn't call `key' at `item' but `pushnew' calls `key' at `obj'.
2016-07-24T22:56:57Z didi`: Right?
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2016-07-24T22:58:46Z Bike: er... yes. i didn't even know pushnew had key.
2016-07-24T23:00:11Z didi`: Bike: I've been using it. Tho I might not anymore just because I am rewriting my function.
2016-07-24T23:00:29Z didi`: Bike: Thank you.
2016-07-24T23:07:25Z phoe: Night, #()
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2016-07-24T23:21:15Z didi`: phoe: o/
2016-07-24T23:21:59Z didi`: Now, if one feels adventurous, I have a Levenshtein Distance function that could use some optimization. ;-)
2016-07-24T23:22:49Z Bike: like that other person, huh
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2016-07-24T23:23:20Z didi`: What person? Did I miss something?
2016-07-24T23:25:19Z didi`: For the curious, https://paste.debian.net/hidden/9313ff6f
2016-07-24T23:25:24Z Bike: there was someone here the other day doing hamming, but it's not important
2016-07-24T23:25:44Z didi`: Bike: oic
2016-07-24T23:25:48Z didi`: :-)
2016-07-24T23:26:52Z Bike: so you settled on using replace instead of rotatef? the latter not working?
2016-07-24T23:28:32Z didi`: Bike: It did, but I had to return (svref v0 (length s2)) instead of the algorithm's (svref v1 (length s2)), so as I still doesn't know the performance impact, I kept `replace' because it makes my program most similar to the algorithm.
2016-07-24T23:30:20Z Bike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levenshtein_distance#Iterative_with_two_matrix_rows this one?
2016-07-24T23:30:41Z didi`: Bike: Indeed.
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2016-07-24T23:33:31Z Bike: it looks like v1 is filled in anew every iteration from left to right, so i think swapping should be ok
2016-07-24T23:33:59Z didi`: Bike: I will change it then. Thank you.
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2016-07-24T23:45:09Z Bike: other than that it looks like the inner loop is doing generic arithmetic (on sbcl), but there's probably no way to fix that without restricting scores to fixnums
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2016-07-24T23:46:13Z didi`: Thank you for looking at it, Bike. I doubt I will be using this to compare strings longer than say 100.
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