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2016-06-10T00:21:08Z PuercoPop: is there any observable difference between '() and ()?
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2016-06-10T00:21:21Z Bike: not to the evaluator
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2016-06-10T00:21:54Z PuercoPop: Bike: thanks
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2016-06-10T00:32:25Z fe[nl]ix: PuercoPop: the first form might take a few more nanowatts to parse
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2016-06-10T00:34:44Z sigjuice: I have to manually set cffi-toolchain:*cc-flags* to -I/usr/local/include each time I try to load a system that compiles C files.  Is there a way to set this automatically in .sbclrc?
2016-06-10T00:35:27Z Bike: do you load cffi in sbclrc?
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2016-06-10T00:36:20Z sigjuice: Bike: no
2016-06-10T00:37:02Z sigjuice: would prefer not to
2016-06-10T00:37:57Z Bike: i guess you could put an :after method on some perform
2016-06-10T00:38:09Z Bike: that's kind of weird, also, what compiler is this?
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2016-06-10T00:39:04Z sigjuice: do you mean the C compiler? clang on OS X 10.11.
2016-06-10T00:40:37Z Bike: i'm surprised it doesn't include that directory already. but, you can use some environment variables to fix it up. CPATH and C_INCLUDE_PATH, i think
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2016-06-10T00:42:35Z sigjuice: cffi has this (defparameter *cc-flags* ... #+darwin (list "-I" "/opt/local/include/"))
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2016-06-10T00:46:14Z sigjuice: grep in cffi didn't turn up CPATH or C_INCLUDE_PATH. but I found this: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/pull/91/commits/4f99cf5163713c9092fe98e00b7862c318627bde
2016-06-10T00:46:25Z Bike: those aren't for CFFI, they're for clang
2016-06-10T00:47:09Z sigjuice: oh
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2016-06-10T00:52:12Z sigjuice: would it make sense to suggest that cffi use (defvar *cc-flags* ..) instead of (defparameter *cc-flags* ..) ?
2016-06-10T00:52:46Z Bike: so that you could define it beforehand? you still need the package
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2016-06-10T00:55:15Z sigjuice: couldn't I make the package inside .sbclrc as well? (defpackage #:cffi-toolchain (:shadow #:*cc-flags*))
2016-06-10T00:55:36Z Bike: then when you load cffi it would try to define the package, and problems would happen
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2016-06-10T00:58:59Z sigjuice: trying it to see what happens
2016-06-10T00:59:35Z Bike: i'd really just set CPATH somewhere, i imagine you want /usr/local/include to be includeable when compiling things even outside of lisp
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2016-06-10T01:11:11Z sigjuice: I was hoping to avoid environment variables.  I tend to forget where they are set from.  ~/.profile, ~/.bashrc, ~/.emacs, launchd, .plist files.
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2016-06-10T01:16:03Z sigjuice: changing defparameter to defvar and making the package in .sbclrc appears to work.
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2016-06-10T01:22:03Z sigjuice: not sure if I understand the defpackage stuff completely though :/
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2016-06-10T01:23:09Z Bike: defpackage has undefined behavior on packages that already exist and not from the exact same defpackage form, and sbcl likes to complain about it. the toolchain thing uses uiop's define-package, which might be more permissive.
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2016-06-10T01:30:03Z sigjuice: yup. SBCL warned me when I did (defpackage "ABC" (:export "AAA")) followed by (defpackage "ABC" (:export "BBB"))
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2016-06-10T01:32:10Z sigjuice: what a rabbit hole.  I will stick CPATH someplace like you suggested.
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2016-06-10T02:49:46Z sigjuice: weird. lsof shows that sbcl has these files open. ~/Library/Saved Application State/org.gnu.Emacs.savedState/{data.data,windows.plist,window_1.data}
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2016-06-10T02:54:37Z Quadrescence: sigjuice, from slime?
2016-06-10T02:55:16Z sigjuice: yes
2016-06-10T02:56:27Z Quadrescence: sigjuice, that sounds sensible, gotta set up the swank server for slime interaction
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2016-06-10T02:59:42Z sigjuice: well, I am not sure what those files are for and how they relate to swank or slime.
2016-06-10T03:00:34Z sigjuice: turns out emacs -Q also opens those files
2016-06-10T03:00:41Z Quadrescence: sigjuice, for IPC?
2016-06-10T03:01:57Z sigjuice: isn't slime/swank communication using TCP?
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2016-06-10T03:06:37Z sigjuice: *inferior-lisp* says "Swank started at port: 65524" which matches "lsof -c sbcl -ai"
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2016-06-10T03:12:45Z cmos: is there any simpler way to write (mapcar (lambda (x) (cons x nil)) some-list), i.e., to listify each element separately?
2016-06-10T03:13:03Z cmos: it's for the purpose of putting a 1d list into a 2d array
2016-06-10T03:13:37Z cmos: (as in an n-element list into an n-by-1 array)
2016-06-10T03:15:32Z ahungry: (mapcar #'list '(1 2 3)) ?
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2016-06-10T03:22:35Z pillton: cmos: You could also create a 1d array which is displaced to the 2d array and use map-into.
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2016-06-10T03:36:04Z cmos: haha, don't know how i didn't think of just using list
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2016-06-10T03:40:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-06-10T03:40:51Z indoor_jellyfish: guten mornin
2016-06-10T03:41:10Z sigjuice: GM!
2016-06-10T03:41:21Z jasom: howdy
2016-06-10T03:41:43Z beach: jasom: Congratulations to getting all that work done!
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2016-06-10T03:42:27Z jasom: thanks
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2016-06-10T03:49:33Z jasom: which reminds me: M-. support: http://i.imgur.com/VKOHGJm.png
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2016-06-10T03:50:47Z indoor_jellyfish facepalm
2016-06-10T03:50:54Z beach: jasom: Nice!
2016-06-10T03:51:24Z beach: indoor_jellyfish: Do you know about the #clim channel?
2016-06-10T03:51:39Z jasom: I think it's now time to make it so that the lisp service is launchable from the IDE itself, and then get it to a point where people not me are able to run it.
2016-06-10T03:52:04Z indoor_jellyfish: o right, should join
2016-06-10T03:52:07Z indoor_jellyfish: ty beach
2016-06-10T03:52:18Z beach: I figured you would be interested, yes.
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2016-06-10T03:53:04Z indoor_jellyfish: beach: I sent an email to the guy who does ircbrowse.net the other day and asked him to add it to his logging list. He said Ok.
2016-06-10T03:53:27Z indoor_jellyfish: (the clim channel)
2016-06-10T03:53:35Z beach: Good!
2016-06-10T03:53:46Z indoor_jellyfish: currently setting up a new laptop btw
2016-06-10T03:54:00Z indoor_jellyfish: taking a bit, but will be back to CLIM'ing soon enough
2016-06-10T03:54:32Z beach: Yes, progress is being made.  Slowly, but steadily.
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2016-06-10T07:57:20Z drot: Using sbcl, how can i use wildcards for directory paths?
2016-06-10T07:57:30Z drot: currently i have (load "~/.emacs.d/elpa/slime-20160521.915/swank-loader.lisp")
2016-06-10T07:57:48Z drot: but i would like to use slime-* so it always loads regardless of the version
2016-06-10T07:59:17Z jackdaniel: does slime-* just work?
2016-06-10T07:59:21Z jackdaniel: doesn't°
2016-06-10T08:00:30Z drot: can't find the TRUENAME of wild pathname
2016-06-10T08:03:01Z Bike: i think wild pathnames are for directory listings, essentially.
2016-06-10T08:03:26Z Bike: after all, if you had multiple slime-* directories LOAD would have to pick one somehow, and you haven't specified one.
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2016-06-10T08:11:45Z jasom: uiop might have something that does this
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2016-06-10T08:14:19Z drot: i can use (directory "~/.emacs.d/elpa/*/swank-loader.lisp") to match it
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2016-06-10T08:21:08Z jasom: (directory "~/.emacs.d/elpa/slime-*/swank-loader.lisp") will probably also work
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2016-06-10T08:26:16Z drot: yep now just to figure out how to convert it
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2016-06-10T08:30:02Z jasom: convert?
2016-06-10T08:30:09Z jasom: not just (load (directory...))
2016-06-10T08:30:17Z jasom: er (load (car (directory ...)))
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2016-06-10T08:33:05Z drot: (load (princ-to-string (car (directory "~/.emacs.d/elpa/*/swank-loader.lisp"))))
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2016-06-10T08:33:55Z drot: oh yes that works too thanks jasom
2016-06-10T08:37:58Z jdz: drot: did you mean NAMESTRING instead of PRINC-TO-STRING?
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2016-06-10T08:40:41Z drot: no that throwed out a type error, car works i just didn't read the load documentation more thoroughly
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2016-06-10T10:14:07Z p_l: heh.
2016-06-10T10:14:27Z p_l: I now own apparently rather less common addition to studying SICP - the instructor's manual :D
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2016-06-10T10:31:09Z djh: Didn't know there was such a thing. Does it add much?
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2016-06-10T10:31:21Z djh is going through SICP atm
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2016-06-10T10:35:29Z p_l: djh: some extras for teacher, more exercises, haven't yet gone deep through it
2016-06-10T10:36:05Z djh: fair enough
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2016-06-10T10:50:16Z Th30n: I need help with qtools and commonqt. How can I create a QVector<QPointf> through qtools or commonqt. I need it for QPolygonf.
2016-06-10T10:52:42Z flip217: p_l: where is that available?
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2016-06-10T11:00:40Z p_l: flip217: I found it on Amazon UK
2016-06-10T11:01:22Z flip217: oh, okay.
2016-06-10T11:01:36Z flip217: thanks!
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2016-06-10T12:52:48Z mm_: Is there a reason why HAMT data structures aren't very common in CL? is there a better alternative or maybe my impression is mislead?
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2016-06-10T13:06:22Z varjag: HAMT/
2016-06-10T13:06:24Z varjag: ?
2016-06-10T13:06:36Z mm_: Hash array mapped trie
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2016-06-10T13:07:21Z varjag: that's quite specific
2016-06-10T13:07:25Z varjag: to be used generally
2016-06-10T13:07:26Z jackdaniel: I think it's not widely known
2016-06-10T13:08:04Z mm_: Ah, I see. I hope that will change soon.
2016-06-10T13:08:18Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure if any library implements it
2016-06-10T13:08:25Z jackdaniel: on the other hand hash-tables are built-in
2016-06-10T13:08:42Z mm_: varjag: It's my top choice for sets and hashes; it's blazng fast.
2016-06-10T13:09:03Z mm_: I found cl-hamt and cl-ctrie but they don't look too promising.
2016-06-10T13:09:14Z jackdaniel: aren't hash-tables faster?
2016-06-10T13:09:17Z jackdaniel: but less economical?
2016-06-10T13:10:15Z mm_: According to wiki, HAMT is more economical.
2016-06-10T13:10:38Z jackdaniel: that's what I said
2016-06-10T13:10:48Z jackdaniel: hash tables are faster but less economical /than/ hamt
2016-06-10T13:11:37Z mm_: Oh excuse me. Yeah but I don't know about faster, let me try to see.
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2016-06-10T13:12:38Z Grue``: for small collections even alist might be faster and more economical than both :)
2016-06-10T13:13:34Z jackdaniel: yes
2016-06-10T13:14:10Z varjag: i doubt you can beat naïve radix tree by memory efficiency much
2016-06-10T13:15:05Z mm_: I don't see anything definitive, I figure they would perform about the same, but under quite some workload I think you're right.
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2016-06-10T14:03:22Z engblom: I finally had chance to begin a little playing with Common Lisp after all the help I received in compiling ECL.
2016-06-10T14:03:37Z engblom: I have now used quickproject to create the project "hello"
2016-06-10T14:03:43Z jackdaniel: congrats :-)
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2016-06-10T14:04:33Z engblom: There I put nothing else than (print "Hello World!"). Now, how do I compile? And how do I run the whole project without compiling?
2016-06-10T14:04:55Z engblom would really need a tutorial/manual about the basic tools
2016-06-10T14:04:58Z JuanDaugherty: save
2016-06-10T14:05:22Z engblom: That I have done
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2016-06-10T14:05:50Z jackdaniel: engblom: then try from ecl: (asdf:load-asd "your-system.asd")
2016-06-10T14:06:01Z jackdaniel: (asdf:load-system :your-system-name)
2016-06-10T14:06:31Z jackdaniel: (where your-system.asd is a name of your system definition file created by quicklproject)
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2016-06-10T14:07:25Z jackdaniel: if you want to just load a file (without a system definition) you may do (load "my-file") ; but that's not what you want if you have created your project with quickproject
2016-06-10T14:08:07Z dlowe: engblom: common lisp has kind of a different model of compilation. Instead of the compiler generating a program which you run, you have an environment that can be loaded with compiled objects.
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2016-06-10T14:08:50Z dlowe: the environment can be reconstructed by loading source code or fasls (fast-loading) or saved in its entirety
2016-06-10T14:08:52Z mm_: By the way if what you mean is to build an executable, it's usually done with dumping the Lisp image rather than just compiling.
2016-06-10T14:09:38Z jackdaniel: mm_: not in case of ecl
2016-06-10T14:10:04Z jackdaniel: ecl builds whole systems, it can't dump images
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2016-06-10T14:11:06Z mm_: Oh really? so I assume the code size is leaner?
2016-06-10T14:11:20Z jackdaniel: yes, ECL produces small binaries
2016-06-10T14:11:43Z jackdaniel: by default they are linked against libecl on the system
2016-06-10T14:11:54Z jackdaniel: libecl is ~10M, while a trivial program may be ~100K
2016-06-10T14:12:03Z jackdaniel: after stripping
2016-06-10T14:12:44Z mm_: Oh that's awesome. I only ever used SBCL and it's pretty huge. How well does ECL generally perform compared to SBCL?
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2016-06-10T14:13:10Z jackdaniel: I have some fresh benchmarks
2016-06-10T14:13:12Z jackdaniel: give me a second
2016-06-10T14:13:15Z jackdaniel: it's slower
2016-06-10T14:13:28Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/files/misc/bench.html
2016-06-10T14:13:29Z jackdaniel: here
2016-06-10T14:13:33Z engblom: It always complains that hello.asd can not be found
2016-06-10T14:13:36Z dlowe: of course, if you distribute, the trivial program will still be ~10M
2016-06-10T14:13:43Z mm_: Oh awesome! thank you
2016-06-10T14:13:43Z dlowe: because you'll need to pass libecl with it
2016-06-10T14:14:01Z jackdaniel: dlowe: yes, but if you have 10 trivial programs, it's ~11M :)
2016-06-10T14:14:19Z jackdaniel: engblom: give it whole path to the file
2016-06-10T14:14:30Z jackdaniel: like /home/en/hello/hello.asd
2016-06-10T14:15:19Z jackdaniel: there is also a static build possibility, so you don't have to distribute the library, then 10 trivial programs will be ~101M
2016-06-10T14:17:45Z engblom: jackdaniel: I got my first Lisp program running now :)
2016-06-10T14:17:54Z jackdaniel: libecl with a usual set of contribs (asdf, documentation, sockets, compiler etc. etc.) is a bit more, 45M (just checked – sole library is 11M)
2016-06-10T14:17:58Z jackdaniel: congratulations! :)
2016-06-10T14:18:00Z jackdaniel: happy hacking
2016-06-10T14:18:07Z engblom: jackdaniel: How do I get ecl to make a standalone executable out of it?
2016-06-10T14:18:18Z jackdaniel: engblom: you may want to read a little this: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ especially the first chapters
2016-06-10T14:18:36Z jackdaniel: engblom: it's all in the examples/ directory
2016-06-10T14:18:40Z jackdaniel: of ecl sources
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2016-06-10T14:20:11Z jackdaniel: basically (asdf:make-build :system-name :type :program)
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2016-06-10T14:22:05Z engblom: Thanks!
2016-06-10T14:22:37Z jackdaniel: sure
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2016-06-10T15:14:16Z phoe_krk: Is there a way to tell DEFCLASS to automatically create accessors and initargs for created classes?
2016-06-10T15:14:42Z phoe_krk: When I have a slot FOO, I'd like an accessor GET-FOO and initarg :FOO, for instance.
2016-06-10T15:14:58Z dlowe: phoe_krk: there's a library defclass-star that does exactly that.
2016-06-10T15:15:02Z jackdaniel: yes, (defmacro defclass* …) ;) but by default I'm afraid not
2016-06-10T15:15:04Z jackdaniel: o, there is
2016-06-10T15:15:16Z dlowe: I think it makes FOO-OF accessors.
2016-06-10T15:15:22Z mm_: Yeah, there is
2016-06-10T15:15:39Z phoe_krk: dlowe: Thanks!
2016-06-10T15:15:48Z dlowe:  I would suggest, though, that if you are modeling your class using accessors, you might want to try a more OO approach.
2016-06-10T15:16:40Z phoe_krk: dlowe: please describe "a more OO approach"
2016-06-10T15:17:10Z phoe_krk: because I think I'm already going fairly OO
2016-06-10T15:17:55Z dlowe: modeling your system entirely as classes of data that support specific operations, instead of dumb containers
2016-06-10T15:18:11Z phoe_krk: dlowe: I think I'm already doing this
2016-06-10T15:18:40Z phoe_krk: could you give me an example? perhaps you're thinking of something else
2016-06-10T15:19:06Z cmos: is there some builtin function (maybe "always" or "all" or similar) like (some-function #'some-predicate some-list) that's equivalent to (loop for x in some-list always (some-predicate x))?
2016-06-10T15:19:21Z dlowe: cmos: EVERY
2016-06-10T15:19:27Z cmos: or, more conveniently, to (and (mapcar #'some-predicate some-list))
2016-06-10T15:19:29Z cmos: ooh, cool
2016-06-10T15:19:31Z dlowe: so say you have a postal address class, and you want to get a string representation.
2016-06-10T15:19:49Z dlowe: you can have your class have accessors for every field
2016-06-10T15:20:06Z dlowe: and then you have a function that takes an object, and constructs the string using the accessors.
2016-06-10T15:20:38Z dlowe: or... you can have a method specializing on the object that returns a string.
2016-06-10T15:20:49Z cmos: dlowe, does the reverse exist ("none" or "never")?
2016-06-10T15:20:58Z dlowe: cmos: notany
2016-06-10T15:21:01Z cmos: wonderful
2016-06-10T15:21:04Z dlowe: clhs every
2016-06-10T15:21:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm
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2016-06-10T15:21:09Z dlowe: try that link
2016-06-10T15:21:30Z dlowe: It's a lot less obvious in CL because objects don't "own" their methods.
2016-06-10T15:21:55Z dlowe: It's more a line of where you are setting the interface protocol for that object.
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2016-06-10T15:23:59Z dlowe: does that make sense?
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2016-06-10T15:25:46Z phoe_krk: dlowe: yes, I get it
2016-06-10T15:25:55Z phoe_krk: I essentially want to do this with the accessors.
2016-06-10T15:26:28Z phoe_krk: Because they're generics, so I can declare BAR, BAZ, QUUX as classes with a slot named FOO.
2016-06-10T15:26:59Z phoe_krk: And I go (FOO-OF (MAKE-INSTANCE 'BAR)), (FOO-OF (MAKE-INSTANCE 'BAZ)), (FOO-OF (MAKE-INSTANCE 'QUUX)).
2016-06-10T15:27:11Z phoe_krk: Does this approach make sense to you?
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2016-06-10T15:27:54Z dlowe: well, I mean, that will certainly work.
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2016-06-10T15:30:23Z PuercoPop: From what I understand of the CLHS, macrolets are defined has access to the lexical environment at the moment of definition, is there a caveat regarding accesing enviroment?
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2016-06-10T15:31:03Z dlowe: trying to use macroexpand on a macrolet form will cause you to hate life
2016-06-10T15:31:17Z dlowe: that's the only caveat I know of
2016-06-10T15:31:53Z moore33: PurecoPop: You can't get values out of the environment...
2016-06-10T15:31:54Z dlowe: macroexpand evaluates in the null lexical environment by default, regardless of where it's executed
2016-06-10T15:32:37Z dlowe: you can pass in an environment object, but there's no way to get one except by having a macro called by the compiler
2016-06-10T15:32:57Z dlowe: so you have to make a special expand macro that will call macroexpand with the current environment.
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2016-06-10T15:33:05Z PuercoPop: dlowe: so I shouldn't trust slime-macroexpand or macrostep then, good to know
2016-06-10T15:33:32Z dlowe: Much like flet, I often question why I didn't just make a top level definition
2016-06-10T15:33:49Z dlowe: but having the lexical context can be convenient for flet.
2016-06-10T15:34:29Z phoe_krk: Which library provides ALISTP?
2016-06-10T15:34:37Z phoe_krk: (And PLISTP if we're at it?)
2016-06-10T15:35:22Z PuercoPop: I was thinking of using dynamic scope the variable I want to access. I didn't want to modify the code much, but it seems the simpler solution in this case.
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2016-06-10T15:36:16Z Grue``: dynamic variables are so fun though
2016-06-10T15:36:23Z moore33: phoe_krk: Is there a definition of plistp other than (zerop (mod (length x) 0))? :P
2016-06-10T15:36:37Z moore33: uh, mod 2 of course.
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2016-06-10T15:36:56Z phoe_krk: moore33: I'd go with every odd element being a keyword.
2016-06-10T15:38:24Z moore33: phoe_krk: You'll probably have to write your personal plistp then.
2016-06-10T15:39:32Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: it doesn't seem an good idea, you'll have to traverse all the consess
2016-06-10T15:40:07Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: it's not like I care about this at this moment, my lists will be ≤20 elements long.
2016-06-10T15:40:17Z phoe_krk: moore33: a'ight then.
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2016-06-10T15:42:34Z dlowe: if you have incredibly large plists, I'd say you were doing it wrong
2016-06-10T15:42:58Z Grue``: if you want to get a value from either alist *or* plist you can do something like https://github.com/archimag/cl-closure-template/blob/master/src/common-lisp-backend.lisp#L158
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2016-06-10T15:45:44Z TMA: phoe_krk: plists with nonkeyword evens are quite common. (lispworks and clisp use nonkeyword keys in (symbol-plist symbol) iirc)
2016-06-10T15:46:15Z TMA: phoe_krk: *odds
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2016-06-10T15:49:44Z phoe_krk: TMA: sigh. Oh well.
2016-06-10T15:49:51Z phoe_krk: Oh, right.
2016-06-10T15:50:48Z TMA: phoe_krk: make it a symbolp test and you are good to go
2016-06-10T15:52:07Z phoe_krk: Can I somehow prevent the *slime-compilation* buffer from appearing?
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2016-06-10T16:27:10Z phoe_krk: ...bordeaux-threads lacks a LOCKP.
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2016-06-10T16:29:08Z Grue``: sadly
2016-06-10T16:32:34Z phoe_krk: Grrrr.
2016-06-10T16:32:38Z phoe_krk: Give me a moment, it'll stop lacking one.
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2016-06-10T16:47:19Z engblom: jackdaniel: When I compile my helloworld it takes surprisingly long time to start it. It takes more than 7s. Does it load any init-file? Or is it slow because of other reasons?
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2016-06-10T17:05:55Z phoe_krk: Does anyone have MKCL over here?
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2016-06-10T17:06:27Z phoe_krk: If yes - what does (type-of (mt:make-lock)) return?
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2016-06-10T17:09:03Z phoe_krk: MT:LOCK - thanks.
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2016-06-10T17:23:17Z phoe_krk: https://github.com/sionescu/bordeaux-threads/pull/22
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2016-06-10T17:27:54Z jasom: HAMT are better for persistant data structures than hash tables or tries, which is why they have gotten interest lately (re clojure, haskell)
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2016-06-10T17:41:51Z fe[nl]ix: phoe_krk: see my comments
2016-06-10T17:43:48Z phoe_krk: fe[nl]ix: am
2016-06-10T17:44:39Z phoe_krk: fe[nl]ix: got it, implementing now.
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2016-06-10T17:59:48Z phoe_krk: Could anyone with a working CMUCL provide me with the type of (MP:MAKE-LOCK :KIND :RECURSIVE)?
2016-06-10T18:00:34Z phoe_krk: Oh, wait.
2016-06-10T18:00:40Z phoe_krk: Downloading it myself now, it's on apt.
2016-06-10T18:02:48Z phoe_krk: ...what is CMU's error-check-lock?
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2016-06-10T18:06:21Z engblom: ecl -norc -eval "(quit)"       <---- This takes 1.5 seconds
2016-06-10T18:06:45Z engblom: Why does the most simple compiled to native version of HelloWorld take almost 8s?
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2016-06-10T18:08:28Z engblom: I do not believe (format .....) is that slow.
2016-06-10T18:08:39Z cmos: format is very slow, but certainly not /that/ slow
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2016-06-10T18:21:04Z phoe_krk: fe[nl]ix: ready. https://github.com/sionescu/bordeaux-threads/pull/22
2016-06-10T18:21:09Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: thanks for help :D
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2016-06-10T18:21:40Z pjb: $ time ecl -q -norc -eval  '(progn (format t "Hello World!~%") (quit))'
2016-06-10T18:21:40Z pjb: Hello World!
2016-06-10T18:21:40Z pjb: real	0m0.093s
2016-06-10T18:21:40Z pjb: user	0m0.080s
2016-06-10T18:21:43Z pjb: sys	0m0.028s
2016-06-10T18:21:57Z phoe_krk: fe[nl]ix: WAIT WAIT
2016-06-10T18:22:03Z phoe_krk: I screwed up on variable names.
2016-06-10T18:24:19Z engblom: pjb: I am on rpi2
2016-06-10T18:24:48Z engblom: That takes 1.6s for me
2016-06-10T18:25:01Z engblom: Still far from almost 8s for the standalone binary made with ecl
2016-06-10T18:25:47Z engblom: Is the standalone using the stuff I got in my .eclrc?
2016-06-10T18:26:56Z phoe_krk: fe[nl]ix: done.
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2016-06-10T18:37:53Z fourier``: How can one determine if the particular symbol is a type?
2016-06-10T18:39:07Z phoe_krk: fourier``: https://github.com/m2ym/trivial-types type-specifier-p
2016-06-10T18:39:20Z phoe_krk: but, what you just said is a weak point of Lisp type system.
2016-06-10T18:39:36Z phoe_krk: it's very non-trivial to say whether something is a valid type specifier - or so I heard around here on #lisp.
2016-06-10T18:40:47Z fourier``: phoe_krk: doesn't work on LW
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2016-06-10T18:43:32Z fourier``: phoe_krk: hm
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2016-06-10T18:50:25Z phoe_krk: fourier``: well, it's not supported there
2016-06-10T18:51:23Z phoe_krk: this depends on whether a type specifier has a type-specifier documentation and falls back to implementation-dependent methods.
2016-06-10T18:51:37Z phoe_krk: If an implementation doesn't provide a predicate for that, you're out of luck.
2016-06-10T18:52:26Z phoe_krk: okay - bbl, time for a big apt dist-upgrade
2016-06-10T18:53:55Z fourier``: bb
2016-06-10T18:54:31Z Bike: i don't see anything in LW SYSTEM or HCL. kinda surprising.
2016-06-10T18:57:00Z phoe_krk: well
2016-06-10T18:57:08Z phoe_krk: I have a tmux online.
2016-06-10T18:57:13Z phoe_krk: Maybe my system won't break after this.
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2016-06-10T18:58:51Z phoe_krk: ...actually, this is pretty rad.
2016-06-10T18:59:08Z phoe_krk: I just realized that I have a working console-mode emacs.
2016-06-10T19:00:05Z phoe_krk: That *DOES* work absolutely the same despite looking somewhat odd in a non-GUI window!
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2016-06-10T19:01:33Z Bike: yeah, i used to run it like that. you ca n't use the mouse though.
2016-06-10T19:02:14Z fourier``: same here, used it a lot with tmux and xterm-256color terminal type
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2016-06-10T19:09:24Z phoe_krk: Bike: guh?
2016-06-10T19:09:30Z phoe_krk: I'm using it just fine with gpm installed.
2016-06-10T19:09:54Z phoe_krk: Well, I'm having trouble with scroll and many key chords don't work as they should.
2016-06-10T19:09:57Z Bike: that so? never used it
2016-06-10T19:10:00Z phoe_krk: Like C+arrows.
2016-06-10T19:10:03Z phoe_krk: Bike: yessum.
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2016-06-10T19:39:55Z phoe_krk: (defmethod (&optional (foo bar)) foo)
2016-06-10T19:40:03Z phoe_krk: How can I declare a default value for FOO?
2016-06-10T19:41:18Z Bike: uh, that's what you did there?
2016-06-10T19:41:27Z Bike: foo's default value will be bar.
2016-06-10T19:41:41Z Bike: are you interpreting that as a type? because you can't specialize optional parameters.
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2016-06-10T19:42:44Z phoe_krk: Oh.
2016-06-10T19:42:48Z phoe_krk: I can't specialize optional parameters.
2016-06-10T19:42:50Z phoe_krk: Thanks!
2016-06-10T19:43:16Z phoe_krk: (why can't I specialize optional parameters? what is the reason for that?)
2016-06-10T19:44:06Z Bike: makes things more confusing, i guess.
2016-06-10T19:44:25Z Bike: of course, you can have a normal function with optionals and keys and so on and throw everything at an internal gf with all required parameters.
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2016-06-10T20:08:06Z cmos: is there any way to conditionally include something in (values)? i would like (values a b maybe-c) to evaluate to (values a b c) when c is non-nil and (values a b) rather than (values a b nil) when not
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2016-06-10T20:08:58Z H4ns: cmos: why?
2016-06-10T20:09:26Z akkad: cmos: yeah, why lisp?
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2016-06-10T20:10:08Z dlowe: cmos: isn't that just (values a b c)?
2016-06-10T20:10:11Z dlowe: oh, I see
2016-06-10T20:10:15Z H4ns: akkad: i was specifically interested in the reason why cmos wanted that
2016-06-10T20:10:34Z dlowe: cmos: you can ignore any values at the end you don't care about
2016-06-10T20:10:42Z akkad: deconstructionism ftw
2016-06-10T20:10:57Z Bike: there's a few situations it would be different in
2016-06-10T20:11:07Z dlowe: yeah a few.
2016-06-10T20:11:10Z Bike: the easiest thing would be (if c (values a b c) (values a b)), of course
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2016-06-10T20:14:32Z H4ns: Bike: just because there may be situations in which (values a b) and (values a b c) yield different behavior does not really make it a good idea to create situations in which it makes a different.  in fact, i think it is a rather bad idea to specifically return a different number of values depending on conditions that only the returning function knows.
2016-06-10T20:14:45Z H4ns: but maybe i am missing something, that's why i'm asking.
2016-06-10T20:15:05Z Bike: that's probably true, but i think it's fine putting the easy answer out there
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2016-06-10T20:15:25Z H4ns: sure it's fine. :)
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2016-06-10T20:20:33Z fourier``: cmos: even if it is possible (like Bike said above), I believe it is a bad practice - how the caller of your function would know if the result is (values a b c) or (values a b) ?
2016-06-10T20:21:55Z Bike: multiple-value-list and multiple-value-call, basically
2016-06-10T20:21:56Z cmos: it's certainly bad practice, i would just like to be able to do it for debugging—isn't necessary, but would make my life a little bit easier in the short run
2016-06-10T20:21:58Z cmos: (i think i disconnected and missed the aforementioned post by Bike)
2016-06-10T20:21:58Z phoe_krk: (multiple-value-list)
2016-06-10T20:22:09Z phoe_krk: but it's... bad
2016-06-10T20:22:19Z phoe_krk: to *have* to use m-v-l to detect that case
2016-06-10T20:22:20Z cmos: ah, i guess that would do it, yeah
2016-06-10T20:22:35Z phoe_krk: why not have a constant number of values and return NIL on some of them?
2016-06-10T20:23:11Z fourier``: phoe_krk, Bike, yes, but in this case you can just use normal list, don't you?
2016-06-10T20:23:24Z Bike: What?
2016-06-10T20:24:10Z PuercoPop: cmos: you can build the arguments to values in a list and then apply values, but I fail to see the value in that
2016-06-10T20:24:12Z cmos: phoe_krk, my goal would be to run something that always returns nil (for side-effects) in the middle of the body of values without it affecting the values that are returned
2016-06-10T20:24:18Z fourier``: if you just convert values to the list, why can't you just return a list ? :)
2016-06-10T20:24:27Z phoe_krk: cmos: why?
2016-06-10T20:24:39Z Bike: fourier``: well, that's why it's obscure, yeah.
2016-06-10T20:24:43Z cmos: as mentioned, i would like to add the side-effects call for debugging purposes
2016-06-10T20:24:43Z phoe_krk: I can't imagine a place where this would be useful
2016-06-10T20:24:50Z phoe_krk: ...debugging, I see.
2016-06-10T20:24:52Z cmos: it wouldn't, in practice
2016-06-10T20:24:54Z cmos: but yeah
2016-06-10T20:25:14Z phoe_krk: A better idea, in my case, would be to add a *third* value at the end.
2016-06-10T20:25:31Z phoe_krk: And make the rest of your program depend only on the two first ones.
2016-06-10T20:25:41Z phoe_krk: This way, when you're done debugging, you can remove it and nothing breaks.
2016-06-10T20:25:53Z phoe_krk: But the number of values returned stays semi-constant all the time.
2016-06-10T20:26:00Z cmos: yeah, that's what i ended up going with
2016-06-10T20:26:06Z cmos: roughly
2016-06-10T20:26:07Z phoe_krk: Putting debug stuff in the *middle* of the body of values sounds bad.
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2016-06-10T20:43:01Z _death: why not do something like (values a (trace-evaluation b) c) .. with (defmacro trace-evaluation (value-form) (let ((value (gensym))) `(let ((,value ,value-form)) (format *debug-io* "~&Form ~S yielded ~S~%" ',value-form ,value) ,value))) .. of course trace-evaluation can be extended for multiple-values as well
2016-06-10T20:45:02Z _death: (suppose *trace-output* is a better destination)
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2016-06-10T21:42:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: You could do (push :dev *features*) (values a b #+dev c)
2016-06-10T21:42:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
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2016-06-10T21:42:56Z diverdude: Does anybody in here know a good place with exercises in convert imperative programs to functional programs ?
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2016-06-10T21:48:04Z loke: diverdude: You're probably better off asking about that in a channel dedicated to a pure functional language
2016-06-10T21:48:19Z loke: Such as #haskell for example.
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2016-06-10T22:27:23Z Arathnim: Anyone know where I can find lispM operating system documentation? Genera, in particular.
2016-06-10T22:27:48Z gabriel_laddel: Arathnim: might want to drop into #trilema and ask that questio
2016-06-10T22:27:50Z gabriel_laddel: *question
2016-06-10T22:28:01Z gabriel_laddel: iirc, asciilifeform was giving his away
2016-06-10T22:33:16Z Arathnim: Alright, thanks.
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