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2016-06-08T00:40:40Z PuercoPop: anyone know who do I have to talk for a c-l.net account? I sent an email to where c-l.gitlab said and haven't heard back yet
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2016-06-08T02:19:20Z jasom: PuercoPop: took about 3 weeks for them to get back to m
2016-06-08T02:21:12Z jasom: My geany plugin is starting too look somewhat useful: http://imgur.com/aO3ow7e
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2016-06-08T02:22:37Z jasom: Just indentation and context-sensitive complete so far.  Next up is an equivalent to M-.
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2016-06-08T03:11:52Z TruePika: hehe I came up with an unconventional use of (FINISH-OUTPUT)
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2016-06-08T03:12:25Z TruePika: that call blocks until the output stream buffer is empty, i.e. all of the data has been displayed
2016-06-08T03:13:14Z TruePika: if you put some FINISH-OUTPUT in the main thread of your code, along with status-displaying code, you can block the main thread (and save CPU cycles for elsewhere outside your VM) by sending XOFF
2016-06-08T03:13:49Z TruePika: data can't get displayed until XON is sent, main thread blocks, worker threads block, whole application effectively pauses :)
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2016-06-08T03:24:04Z pillton: I think the lisp IRC logging bot has stopped working.
2016-06-08T03:24:30Z pillton: Sorry. It is. My mistake.
2016-06-08T03:24:39Z Bike: it's pretty janky sometimes
2016-06-08T03:24:54Z Bike: and it uses particular files for days, like, w hen it feels like
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2016-06-08T03:43:50Z pillton: That was my mistake. I was expecting a 2016-06.txt file.
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2016-06-08T03:57:12Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-06-08T04:02:58Z jackdaniel: o/
2016-06-08T04:03:05Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2016-06-08T04:22:44Z jackdaniel: Xach: regarding yt channels, there is also https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKfZ9JfFgg7cxa2hYfC5O0A (dto's channel with games in lisp, development etc)
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2016-06-08T04:24:59Z bumblehead: would someone here recommend a data structure for storing and accessing time-sequences, which may be added in any size or order?
2016-06-08T04:25:33Z jackdaniel: bumblehead: what operations will be the most frequent?
2016-06-08T04:25:44Z jackdaniel: random access, traversing, adding, deleting?
2016-06-08T04:25:44Z bumblehead: specifically, the data structure would serve a video display used to show which regions have been loaded
2016-06-08T04:26:12Z bumblehead: access and adding
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2016-06-08T04:26:45Z bumblehead: adding data frequently and rerendering the contents of the structure each time data is added
2016-06-08T04:27:02Z jackdaniel: heh, then list won't be very good then
2016-06-08T04:27:36Z jackdaniel: but what do you mean by access? is it random?
2016-06-08T04:28:10Z bumblehead: i don't believe random access is required, just random adding
2016-06-08T04:28:18Z jackdaniel: like in the middle?
2016-06-08T04:28:23Z bumblehead: yes
2016-06-08T04:28:33Z jackdaniel: and when you render things you go from start to the end?
2016-06-08T04:28:37Z bumblehead: yes
2016-06-08T04:28:47Z jackdaniel: then I'd go at first with a list
2016-06-08T04:28:57Z jackdaniel: after all
2016-06-08T04:29:20Z jackdaniel: inserting in a middle is cheap, and sequential access is cheap as well
2016-06-08T04:29:29Z jackdaniel: mind, that random access would be awfully slow
2016-06-08T04:29:46Z jackdaniel: and don't use (nth …), but rather dolist or map
2016-06-08T04:29:53Z bumblehead: i have looked at the youtube video player and i see that it only indicates the position of the sequnece which is furthes in time from the current seek position
2016-06-08T04:29:56Z pillton: bumblehead: Sometimes it is better to concentrate on the protocol/interface before considering how something is implemented.
2016-06-08T04:30:29Z jackdaniel: ↑
2016-06-08T04:30:41Z bumblehead: i see
2016-06-08T04:31:22Z bumblehead: sequences.add(begin, end); sequences.getall();
2016-06-08T04:31:52Z beach: Strange notation.
2016-06-08T04:32:14Z jackdaniel: javaish
2016-06-08T04:32:21Z beach: Like I said.
2016-06-08T04:32:24Z jackdaniel: ^_^
2016-06-08T04:32:31Z bumblehead: (sequences-add seq bgn end) (sequences-all seq)
2016-06-08T04:35:05Z beach: bumblehead: There is no solution that is optimal in terms of asymptotic worst-case complexity.  So you need to figure out typical use cases, typical sizes of the sequence, how long each operation is allowed to take etc.
2016-06-08T04:35:36Z beach: bumblehead: If the sequence is short, and editing is rare (and not a bottleneck) then a list is fine.
2016-06-08T04:35:50Z beach: bumblehead: Otherwise, you might want to look into some kind of tree.
2016-06-08T04:36:06Z beach: bumblehead: A 2-3 tree or a splay tree might do.
2016-06-08T04:37:05Z beach: bumblehead: A splay tree has the advantage of being self-adjusting, so that if you edit roughly the same place several times in a row, it will automatically speed up for each operation.
2016-06-08T04:37:53Z beach: bumblehead: On the other hand, the worst-case complexity for an operation for splay tree is O(n) where n is the number of items stored.
2016-06-08T04:38:57Z beach: bumblehead: A 2-3 tree (or any other balanced tree) is guaranteed O(log n) for all operations, and you can traverse it from start to end in O(n) time which is optimal of course.
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2016-06-08T04:41:10Z beach: bumblehead: But the way you specified it is no good, because your SEQUENCES-ALL operation is going to take O(n) time, and you didn't specify what it returns.  If it returns a list, then you will probably do a lot of consing which you probably want to avoid.  It would probably be wiser to specify a MAP-ITEMS operation that applies a function to each item in the sequence from start to end.
2016-06-08T04:41:37Z beach: bumblehead: This was probably way more than you wanted to know, so I'll stop.
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2016-06-08T04:48:20Z jasom: pretty much any tree or trie is good for reasonably fast lookups and walking in-order
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2016-06-08T04:53:05Z beach: jasom: I meant to say that, but it was probably hidden somewhere in the middle of my rant.
2016-06-08T04:54:10Z beach: This repository: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Clump has a few tree types that can be used to represent editable sequences.
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2016-06-08T05:13:06Z bumblehead: beach: thanks for your thoughtful reply
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2016-06-08T05:17:59Z jasom: also, depending on the size of the range and the desired granularity, a simple bit-vector might work for this application
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2016-06-08T05:22:31Z beach: Yes, it's a very interesting problem.  In fact, I have studied this very problem off and on for three decades.
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2016-06-08T05:39:34Z beach: The editor buffer representation of Cluffer: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer is basically a two-level editable sequence.  The upper level is an editable sequence of lines.  At the lower level, each line is an editable sequence of items.  Each level has a different default representation, simply because the use case is different.
2016-06-08T05:40:10Z beach: It makes the common use case very efficient, and the worst case tolerable.
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2016-06-08T05:42:05Z jasom: though if I understand bumblehead right, he's storing ranges, not actual sequences
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2016-06-08T05:43:16Z jasom: http://i.imgur.com/yI8OjdV.png <-- updated screenshot of my geany plugin.  It's up to "almost useful"
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2016-06-08T05:51:02Z beach: Plugin for what?
2016-06-08T05:51:25Z beach: Looks nice!
2016-06-08T05:51:36Z jasom: geany is an IDE, this is a plugin for doing lisp things in it.
2016-06-08T05:51:44Z beach: Oh, I see.
2016-06-08T05:52:58Z jackdaniel: jasom: great job!
2016-06-08T05:53:19Z jackdaniel crosses fingers for this effort
2016-06-08T05:54:28Z jasom: it's currently held together with a lot of chewing-gum and shoestrings, but it works.  I need to make it a bit more robust (e.g. start the slime server automatically, &ct.)
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2016-06-08T06:10:31Z otwieracz: hmm
2016-06-08T06:10:33Z otwieracz: Nice!
2016-06-08T06:10:56Z otwieracz: But the real effort begins when it comes into inspector :)
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2016-06-08T06:11:55Z jackdaniel: swank does a lot with this regard
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2016-06-08T06:14:10Z sigjuice: I tried the CCL inspector for the first time a couple of days ago.  Looked neat.  But I haven't tried many inspectors, so I don't know any better.
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2016-06-08T06:36:26Z pillton: Inspector? What is wrong with print, inspect and describe?
2016-06-08T06:36:58Z pillton leaves to shoo kids off his property.
2016-06-08T06:37:03Z jackdaniel: it supports mouse!
2016-06-08T06:37:12Z jackdaniel: ;)
2016-06-08T06:37:14Z pillton: Mouse?
2016-06-08T06:37:22Z jackdaniel: you know, right click, left click
2016-06-08T06:37:30Z jackdaniel: expand, close buffer
2016-06-08T06:37:43Z jackdaniel: inspector is really nice, and it has colours
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2016-06-08T06:43:59Z pillton: My favourite is C-c RET.
2016-06-08T06:44:38Z pillton: jasom: What force took hold of you to start geany?
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2016-06-08T06:45:27Z jasom: it's complicated
2016-06-08T06:46:30Z jasom: it all started when I looked into which editors could do at least a mediocre job of indenting lisp code.  In terms of source code editors in my distro's package manager the answer was just vim and emacs.
2016-06-08T06:46:45Z jasom: so I picked a random one and wrote an indentation plugin for it.
2016-06-08T06:46:58Z jasom: this was all maybe 2 years ago or so.
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2016-06-08T06:47:21Z flip214: jasom: not satisfied with vim and slimv?
2016-06-08T06:47:29Z otwieracz: slimv seems not usable for me. :(
2016-06-08T06:47:37Z jasom: flip214: I'm satisfied with evil-mode and slime
2016-06-08T06:47:49Z otwieracz: modulo emacs single threading
2016-06-08T06:47:53Z reepca``: It'd be good to have "normal" editors with decent lisp support
2016-06-08T06:48:07Z otwieracz: And responsivity with more then 1MB of data in buffer :)
2016-06-08T06:48:11Z EDT: evil-mode and slime is the best setup for lisp imo
2016-06-08T06:48:31Z reepca``: for some people trying to get used to emacs/vim AND an entirely new way of programming AND freaking out about parentheses is too much I guess
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2016-06-08T06:48:55Z jasom: but anyway it occurred to me yesterday that I had all the groundwork for something more complete than just indentation, so I spent about 4 hours getting basic auto-complete yesterday.
2016-06-08T06:49:18Z EDT: I feel like graphical emacs is only as "weird" as you decide it's going to be
2016-06-08T06:49:46Z flip214: CL-PPCRE wants to operate on simple-arrays; but SBCL (make-array :displaced-to ...) returns a VECTOR - which can't be used via CL-PPCRE any more?!
2016-06-08T06:49:53Z otwieracz: Emacs has some design problems.
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2016-06-08T06:50:11Z EDT: otwieracz: fair point
2016-06-08T06:50:35Z jasom: I spent some more time fixing that today.  Now I'm working on using geany's asynchronous communication rather than blocking for the results to return.  That should let me do things like complete as you type and show information on the lambda-list you are in
2016-06-08T06:50:51Z DeadTrickster: geany like geany.org?
2016-06-08T06:50:55Z jasom: yeah
2016-06-08T06:51:14Z jasom: DeadTrickster: http://i.imgur.com/yI8OjdV.png
2016-06-08T06:51:33Z flip214: jasom: vim8 (released a month ago) has now support for threads and async plugins and so on, too
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2016-06-08T06:52:03Z DeadTrickster: speaking of indentation - maybe 4 years ago I completely rewrote it for common-lisp-mode. now I started my .emacs from scratch and simply don't know what to do
2016-06-08T06:52:10Z DeadTrickster: jasom, looks cool !
2016-06-08T06:52:21Z otwieracz: The sad thing is that vim, while being a bit better designed (well at least is capable of opening 10MB file)
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2016-06-08T06:52:35Z otwieracz: with slimv works terryfing.
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2016-06-08T06:52:41Z otwieracz: asynchronyuous, blah.
2016-06-08T06:52:55Z otwieracz: And there is no developer-force to work on this.
2016-06-08T06:52:56Z DeadTrickster: because I don't want to maintain my hack but I already got used to its style
2016-06-08T06:53:00Z otwieracz: And I am lacking both skill and time.
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2016-06-08T06:54:59Z jasom: the big issue is that slime contains a huge amount of knowledge about how to drive an external lisp process, and much of that is not trivially exportable
2016-06-08T06:55:20Z jasom: for this plugin I cheated (emacs --daemon is powering the whole thing)
2016-06-08T06:55:49Z DeadTrickster: like I still can't figure out what I like more - align arguments on newx lines by first argument or just use two spaces
2016-06-08T06:56:19Z DeadTrickster: standard behavior is former but it just eats space
2016-06-08T06:57:05Z jasom: DeadTrickster: I like either by first argument or 4 spaces; that makes them visually distinct from &body forms
2016-06-08T06:57:10Z DeadTrickster: only &body indents for two spaces.
2016-06-08T06:57:13Z DeadTrickster: yea
2016-06-08T06:57:41Z jasom: though again things like m-v-b use 4 spaces for their own thing
2016-06-08T06:57:49Z DeadTrickster: also I have heavily modified parenscript in production with custom syntax for objects {} and arrays []
2016-06-08T06:58:05Z DeadTrickster: it's even case sensitive.
2016-06-08T06:58:23Z jasom: I didn't feel a need for case sensitive parenscript
2016-06-08T06:58:28Z DeadTrickster: :( looks like I have to copy-paste that monster ((
2016-06-08T06:58:46Z DeadTrickster: jasom, it's used with ExtJS and other strange stuff
2016-06-08T06:59:03Z jasom: you mean *ext-j-s
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2016-06-08T06:59:11Z DeadTrickster: yea
2016-06-08T06:59:20Z DeadTrickster: exactly )
2016-06-08T06:59:41Z jasom: the only thing I used that hit that was *react-d-o-m
2016-06-08T07:00:08Z DeadTrickster: and when this like in any other token... with tons of other camel rules
2016-06-08T07:00:09Z jasom: Long before I used lisp, I thought the correct capitalization was SomeTla not SomeTLA
2016-06-08T07:00:39Z jasom: this is just another place where that shows true
2016-06-08T07:01:21Z jasom: anyway I'm off to bed
2016-06-08T07:01:28Z DeadTrickster: g'night
2016-06-08T07:01:30Z pillton: jasom: Cool.
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2016-06-08T07:17:05Z flip214: CL-PPCRE wants to operate on simple-arrays; but on SBCL (make-array ... :displaced-to "aaa" ...) returns a VECTOR - which can't be used via CL-PPCRE any more. Is there some way around that?
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2016-06-08T07:20:00Z pillton: Does CL-PPCRE accept a start index?
2016-06-08T07:20:14Z H4ns: it does.
2016-06-08T07:20:41Z pillton: clhs array-displacement
2016-06-08T07:20:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ar_dis.htm
2016-06-08T07:21:27Z pillton: flip214: You can get the starting position in the displaced array from the second value returned by array-displacement.
2016-06-08T07:21:45Z pillton: flip214: Just keep calling array-displacement until you get a simple-array.
2016-06-08T07:22:05Z flip214: pillton: ouch. yeah, that's a workaround....
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2016-06-08T07:22:13Z flip214: but I hoped for some simple solution ;)
2016-06-08T07:22:22Z pillton: patch CL-PPCRE.
2016-06-08T07:23:01Z flip214: well, CLHS says it's implementation-defined whether a displaced array is simple...
2016-06-08T07:23:29Z flip214: thanks anyway!
2016-06-08T07:24:24Z pillton: What are you talking about?
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2016-06-08T07:25:25Z Bike: presumably "It is implementation-dependent whether displaced arrays, vectors with fill pointers, or arrays that are actually adjustable are simple arrays."
2016-06-08T07:26:06Z Bike: arrays that are not displaced and so on are actually a subtype of simple-array, so that you can have an implementation where all arrays are dumbly complex
2016-06-08T07:26:18Z Bike: It Is Confusing
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2016-06-08T07:33:30Z pillton: Ok. For this case I described, you can test for NIL then.
2016-06-08T07:33:45Z pillton: "If the array is not a displaced array, nil and 0 are returned."
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2016-06-08T07:33:56Z pillton: My mistake.
2016-06-08T07:34:16Z pillton makes a note to check some of his code.
2016-06-08T07:35:52Z pillton: Nice catch flip214 and Bike.
2016-06-08T07:35:57Z Bike: oh, naggum wrote that function. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/JF3M5kA7_vo/g3oW1UuQJ_UJ
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2016-06-08T07:37:06Z pillton has to fix a bug. :(
2016-06-08T07:42:51Z Bike: what?
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2016-06-08T07:52:24Z jackdaniel: loke: (redisplay-frame-panes *frame*) should do the trick
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2016-06-08T08:16:47Z Grue`: huh, I'm pretty sure I used cl-ppcre with displaced arrays
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2016-06-08T08:18:11Z hjudt: PuercoPop: i noticed spinneret wants to generate code as minimal as possible. it doesn't quote the attributes too except when necessary, i usually do this for safety when writing html manually. but i do not believe that most browsers/clients will cope with that hardcore minimal approach. maintaining compatibility would be much better imo. for now, cl-markup works just fine. i just wished it could pretty-print
2016-06-08T08:18:17Z hjudt: the code.
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2016-06-08T08:20:46Z Grue`: (cl-ppcre:scan "." (make-array 3 :element-type 'character :displaced-to "tst")) works for me
2016-06-08T08:21:15Z Grue`: flip214: maybe you forgot :element-type 'character
2016-06-08T08:27:30Z flip214: Grue`: due to some problems I've set (sb-c::restrict-compiler-policy 'cl::debug 3)
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2016-06-08T08:27:33Z flip214: (sb-c::restrict-compiler-policy 'cl::safety 3)
2016-06-08T08:27:47Z flip214: before compiling CL-PPCRE
2016-06-08T08:28:01Z flip214: perhaps it's seeing the "bad" type only because of that
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2016-06-08T09:14:53Z scymtym: flip214: i haven't read the whole discussion, but maybe this thread helps: https://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/message/35124007/
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2016-06-08T09:23:26Z flip214: scymtym: Grue`: http://paste.lisp.org/display/317826
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2016-06-08T09:42:05Z flip214: not cl-ppcre:scan, but with a function via create-scanner.
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2016-06-08T09:54:41Z scymtym: flip214: seems unrelated to the discussion i referred to, sorry (although i still think cl-ppcre has that issue in some cases). for your problem, it looks like scanners created by CREATE-SCANNER only work on SIMPLE-STRINGs (see CL-PPCRE::*STRING*= and friends). whether displaced arrays are SIMPLE-STRINGs is implementation-dependent
2016-06-08T09:55:24Z flip214: scymtym: yeah, right. is there some easy way around that?
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2016-06-08T09:59:04Z scymtym: flip214: can you use the start, end parameters of the scanner closure instead of an displaced array?
2016-06-08T10:00:07Z flip214: well, I'd have to resolve the displacement first... don't know whether I can change the whole call chain to pass these data in too
2016-06-08T10:00:48Z flip214: I was looking for the check in cl-ppcre, to allow a displaced array too -- but I haven't yet found it.
2016-06-08T10:02:16Z flip214: ah, in specials.lisp.
2016-06-08T10:02:39Z flip214: well, perhaps that's the easiest fix... although I might hope for a displaced array to be simple in sbcl, too ;)
2016-06-08T10:06:23Z scymtym: iirc, SBCL SIMPLE-ARRAYs are laid out in memory as header immediately followed by array elements, so that seems unlikely
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2016-06-08T10:16:33Z moore33: displaced arrays are not simple, according to the hyperspec.
2016-06-08T10:17:05Z moore33: So a displaced string can't be simple either.
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2016-06-08T10:24:35Z Xof: I sort-of feel that cl-ppcre should resolve the displacement and sort out the start/end indices at the interface
2016-06-08T10:25:05Z Xof: then all the string access stuff internally can continue being fast
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2016-06-08T10:50:55Z flip214: It's interesting that it's only via create-scanner, and not scan - there's a (define-compiler-macro scan ) that converts to create-scanner, so why the difference?
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2016-06-08T10:55:45Z scymtym: flip214: SCAN coerces to the input into a SIMPLE-STRING
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2016-06-08T11:13:48Z flip214: scymtym: still, SCAN via the compiler-macro should do the same things as the direct call, no?
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2016-06-08T11:31:14Z scymtym: flip214: right, i didn't read your message properly. so the compiler-macro should probably do MAYBE-COERCE-TO-SIMPLE-STRING in the expansion
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2016-06-08T11:35:49Z Grue``: I'm getting "An attempt to access an array of element-type NIL was made.  Congratulations!"
2016-06-08T11:36:29Z wgslayer: i
2016-06-08T11:37:31Z flip214: Grue`: https://github.com/edicl/cl-ppcre/issues/26
2016-06-08T11:37:36Z Grue``: what are the arguments to create-scanner closure anyway? I don't think you're supposed to funcall it
2016-06-08T11:37:48Z flip214: use (sb-c::restrict-compiler-policy 'cl::debug 3) (sb-c::restrict-compiler-policy 'cl::safety 3) before compiling cl-ppcre
2016-06-08T11:39:21Z Grue``: if you call cl-ppre:scan with the first argument as scanner closure, it will work
2016-06-08T11:39:40Z Grue``: I think you're just not using the right API :)
2016-06-08T11:41:58Z Grue``: (funcall 'cl-ppre:scan M y)
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2016-06-08T11:46:47Z flip214: scymtym: http://paste.lisp.org/display/317826#1 but still doesn't work?
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2016-06-08T13:39:38Z scymtym: flip214: what does not work after that change? calling the return value CREATE-SCANNER with a non-simple string?
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2016-06-08T13:41:22Z flip214: scymtym: never mind, got it working in the meantime. thanks for the hint!
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2016-06-08T13:45:03Z scymtym: flip214: dutr
2016-06-08T13:45:11Z scymtym: sorry, "sure"
2016-06-08T13:45:29Z flip214: ;)
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2016-06-08T13:50:52Z moore33: Does anyone remember the name of the blogger who was very mathematically inclined, self-taught, worked for Secure Outcomes on the fingerprint scanner for a time and failed an interview at Google?
2016-06-08T13:51:02Z moore33: And who wrote a lot about Lisp stuff.
2016-06-08T13:51:40Z dlowe: Failing an interview at Google isn't exactly uncommon
2016-06-08T13:52:17Z dlowe: I've failed a couple myself
2016-06-08T13:52:40Z holycow: google interviews seem idiotic to me
2016-06-08T13:52:54Z moore33: dlowe: Did you blog about it? :)
2016-06-08T13:53:16Z dlowe: moore33: nope.
2016-06-08T13:53:28Z moore33: dlowe: Then I guess it wasn't you.
2016-06-08T13:53:29Z dlowe: holycow: what about them is more idiotic than other interviews?
2016-06-08T13:54:45Z holycow: to provide context, google seems to think their interview process is successful given whatever metrics they use
2016-06-08T13:54:55Z dlowe: Note that I'm not disagreeing, but I've never walked away from an interview thinking, "Boy, now that company has a great sense of what I could contribute now."
2016-06-08T13:54:57Z holycow: so i just have an opinion
2016-06-08T13:55:23Z splittist: moore33: Robert Smith?
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2016-06-08T13:55:34Z loke: dlowe: I've also failed one :-)
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2016-06-08T13:55:57Z holycow: but i just don't see how much you can really learn about a developers skills from an interview beyond a certain level.  these google style interviews everyone is developing seem more like a circus act to see who is more depserate to join rather than to pick the best candidate
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2016-06-08T13:56:19Z moore33: splittist: Ding ding ding! Yes! Thanks.
2016-06-08T13:56:35Z loke: holycow: Not really. I really liked their interviews, and I've taken some ideas from them myself when I'm hiring.
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2016-06-08T13:56:40Z dlowe: holycow: what makes an interview google-style? I'm really interested in your opinion.
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2016-06-08T13:58:26Z dlowe: I've been thinking deeply about how to replace interviews as a practice and I haven't come to anything that doesn't have more downsides than upsides.
2016-06-08T13:58:59Z Zhivago: In an interview there are only a couple of things that you can do that are useful, in my experience.
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2016-06-08T13:59:48Z holycow: dlowe: amount of time required is ridiculous.  the amount of esoteric knowledge required that may or may not be in your domain of expertice also seems ridiculous.  i mean, most really good and really experience developers will fail the interviews for the most ridiculous of reasons ... i mean, some of the tests you hear about in these interviews are crazy
2016-06-08T14:00:05Z Zhivago: (a) See if the candidate can write code like a programmer, (b) see if they seem intelligent and educated in the domain, (c) see how they deal with failure, (d) see if they seem like nice people.
2016-06-08T14:00:23Z dlowe: Zhivago: those are very useful things to know.
2016-06-08T14:00:36Z holycow: i mean, you have to make sure that they have the experience and core competence, but you can't really test for actual productivity in an interview.  you gotta give the dev a job and see how they do over 3 months.
2016-06-08T14:00:39Z dlowe: I would add (e) see if they're completely lying about their resume
2016-06-08T14:00:47Z Zhivago: I generally ignore the resumes.
2016-06-08T14:00:52Z holycow: Zhivago: that is basically my thought on it as well.
2016-06-08T14:00:59Z dlowe: and replace (a) with See if the candidate can write code at all
2016-06-08T14:01:22Z holycow: well there is that, i mean you DO have to check for the copy / paste artists
2016-06-08T14:01:28Z dlowe: holycow: It's more of a Bene Gesserit test than pass/fail.
2016-06-08T14:01:43Z dlowe: FWIW, I think the right thing is to have a hiring committee separated from interviewers like Google.
2016-06-08T14:01:52Z holycow: but you know, getting that now famous tst on how measure the weight of a 737 in a parkinglot is fucking stupid.  that tells you nothing.
2016-06-08T14:02:07Z dlowe: holycow: google never did those. That's an urban myth.
2016-06-08T14:02:21Z p_l: holycow: with one exception, I really liked the interviews at google, and the exception involved my brother testing his BMW's engine in a way that prevented concentration
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2016-06-08T14:02:38Z p_l: holycow: the brain-teasers are actually from Microsoft. In late 1980s.
2016-06-08T14:02:42Z holycow: dlowe: okay, i could be wrong.
2016-06-08T14:03:03Z holycow: p_l: oh right, that is where it was.
2016-06-08T14:03:15Z dlowe: Microsoft stopped doing them too because they didn't correlate with performance at all.
2016-06-08T14:03:25Z p_l: holycow: from what I heard, at some point google did use those brain-teasers. Experience made them consider any use of those questions an automatic "redo this interview with different interviewer" point
2016-06-08T14:03:38Z p_l: so they were no longer there by ~2004 or so?
2016-06-08T14:03:49Z moore33: That kind of problem was more of an Amazon thing too.
2016-06-08T14:03:53Z dlowe: There was a lot less controls over interviewing back then.
2016-06-08T14:03:53Z H4ns: i think looking at google to learn something about good hiring processes is like looking at big data tools for databases.  google's hiring process tries to solve the very specific hiring problem that google has and that just can't be applied if you're a smaller company, focused on something specific, have a very small pipeline etc.
2016-06-08T14:03:56Z holycow: ah, so maybe they got better?  okay, that could be, sure.
2016-06-08T14:03:56Z p_l: around the time they started doing recruitement on very lanrge scale
2016-06-08T14:04:16Z dlowe: it certainly wasn't policy and is explicitly banned now.
2016-06-08T14:04:35Z p_l: There's one good thing to learn from google interviews, and that's *why* they have those questions about basic CS concepts
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2016-06-08T14:04:51Z p_l: (case in point: infamous rant about homebrew dev failing to reverse a tree)
2016-06-08T14:05:07Z holycow: i mean even that is kind of silly
2016-06-08T14:05:20Z dlowe: what I'd really like is to have an "interview" where you both work on a project together.
2016-06-08T14:05:23Z p_l: holycow: it actually isn't when you manage to get through the whole question
2016-06-08T14:05:24Z holycow: how many people REALLY remember all the corners and edge cases of their cs education?
2016-06-08T14:05:33Z p_l: holycow: point is... you don't have to
2016-06-08T14:05:46Z holycow: do they let you look them up?
2016-06-08T14:05:48Z p_l: you need basics. as in very, very basics of algorithms and datastructures,
2016-06-08T14:06:04Z p_l: holycow: they let you ask questions and talk your process out, including getting hints
2016-06-08T14:06:16Z holycow: okay, maybe it has changed then.
2016-06-08T14:06:18Z p_l: the question is not about details of implementation and corner cases
2016-06-08T14:06:22Z p_l: holycow: never was, afaik
2016-06-08T14:06:35Z p_l: holycow: or at least, if it goes like that, it's against policy and goals
2016-06-08T14:07:06Z dlowe: No, the idea is to see how far the candidate can go.
2016-06-08T14:07:23Z p_l: I had some very basic common question involving reverse index, and while it started easily from a hashtable, it evolved into a question that touched on Amdahl's law, distributed computing, etc.
2016-06-08T14:07:25Z dlowe: Most of the interview questions are designed to extend far past the length of an interview
2016-06-08T14:07:29Z p_l: yeah
2016-06-08T14:07:33Z dlowe: so you will fail at some point. The question is where.
2016-06-08T14:07:34Z Zhivago: hans: I don't think that is true.
2016-06-08T14:07:59Z p_l: the reverse index question could be pushed up to "implement google's search engine circa 2001" or so ;)
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2016-06-08T14:08:24Z Zhivago: hans: Google's hiring process tries to select for intelligent people who are nice and can code and have broad background knowledge.
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2016-06-08T14:09:08Z p_l: fwiw, at google they a) work with mostly their own stack and libs b) your work will involve operations on distributed scale if it's not a client software developement position
2016-06-08T14:09:29Z Zhivago: What's more important than where is how you fail. Generally the interviewer should nudge you in a useful direction if you get stuck.
2016-06-08T14:09:39Z p_l: what's a "non-issue" at scale of single machine, becomes an important question on their scale
2016-06-08T14:09:42Z Xach: I like the blurb for https://github.com/plops/cl-vpx
2016-06-08T14:09:44Z p_l: And yes, there's that
2016-06-08T14:09:45Z Xach: (it is a lisp project)
2016-06-08T14:10:12Z p_l: actually, I'm trying for google interviews again
2016-06-08T14:12:24Z dlowe: was a lisp project?
2016-06-08T14:12:40Z dlowe: p_l: hoping to land a sweet common lisp position? :D
2016-06-08T14:13:11Z p_l: dlowe: nah, doubtful. Will probably do Go. OTOH, my previous coding interviews at google tended to include Lisp :D
2016-06-08T14:13:34Z dlowe: p_l: travel still needs CL hackers, AFAIK
2016-06-08T14:13:35Z p_l: once got asked to "ok, we're done with the question, but could you show me the same thing written in Common Lisp? :D"
2016-06-08T14:13:50Z p_l: dlowe: none of it is in Warsaw, and I'm currently bound to Warsaw
2016-06-08T14:14:30Z dlowe: ah, yeah.
2016-06-08T14:14:45Z dlowe: good luck, then
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2016-06-08T14:15:11Z dlowe: Xach: very honest, though
2016-06-08T14:15:39Z cmos: does google do lispy stuff? i've been thinking of applying with them, and would love that as a possibility (even given my relative inexperience with the language)
2016-06-08T14:16:12Z dlowe: cmos: yeah, google flight search is still done with Common Lisp
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2016-06-08T14:16:14Z p_l: cmos: Google Flights team does
2016-06-08T14:16:17Z dlowe: that's the only place, though
2016-06-08T14:16:24Z cmos: neat
2016-06-08T14:16:39Z cmos: i like google flights; they do consistently seem to find me just about the best deals
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2016-06-08T14:16:49Z holycow: p_l: good luck with the google stuff also :)
2016-06-08T14:17:22Z holycow: cmos: they basically are the back end for all of the airlines booking systems
2016-06-08T14:17:47Z cmos: huh, any idea why that would be?
2016-06-08T14:18:01Z dlowe: holycow: sorry, but you're kind of wrong there.
2016-06-08T14:18:13Z dlowe: They're the back end for a lot of other fare search systems.
2016-06-08T14:18:42Z holycow: oh yeah?
2016-06-08T14:18:50Z dlowe: Google had a booking system, being used by an airline even, but they canned it a couple of years ago.
2016-06-08T14:19:04Z holycow: i thought they actually did booking for air canada and a lot of the majours
2016-06-08T14:19:15Z dlowe: yeah, well, that was the plan.
2016-06-08T14:19:34Z dlowe: but the booking system was also in common lisp
2016-06-08T14:19:49Z dlowe: which was quite cool
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2016-06-08T14:21:04Z holycow: you was was quite cool.  what happened?  did they loose out to another competitor or ?
2016-06-08T14:21:25Z moore33: cmos: Google bought ITA, who developed the software. They used Lisp because it was convenient for expressing their hairy algorithms... and they were all big MIT geeks :)
2016-06-08T14:21:47Z cmos: ah, makes sense
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2016-06-08T14:22:46Z p_l: cmos: generally, ITA was an upstart that nipped something like 1/3rd of the market for large scale fare calculation search
2016-06-08T14:22:57Z dlowe: first mover advantage
2016-06-08T14:23:14Z p_l: more like last mover
2016-06-08T14:23:39Z holycow: ohhhh, i see.  okay i misunderstood what business they were in.
2016-06-08T14:23:43Z holycow: got it.  that is neat.
2016-06-08T14:23:45Z moore33: It worked well though.
2016-06-08T14:24:47Z dlowe: IIRC, ITA did the first cross-airline fare search.
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2016-06-08T14:26:07Z p_l: dlowe: possible, though from my understanding fare searching became a SaaS business long before the name got coined ……
2016-06-08T14:26:25Z loke: ITA is still part of Google, asfaik
2016-06-08T14:26:27Z loke: AFAIK
2016-06-08T14:26:37Z dlowe: well, it's all Google Travel now
2016-06-08T14:26:52Z loke: And I think they still use Lisp, after all, I see Google people work on SBCL
2016-06-08T14:27:13Z Xach: I would like to know in what capacity that work happens.
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2016-06-08T14:27:23Z Xach: Sometimes it feels like it's not official. More blowing off steam.
2016-06-08T14:27:41Z loke: Xach: I think Douglas Katzman works with ITA?
2016-06-08T14:27:55Z p_l: I suspect some of it is "we did bits to fix our internal problems, those are getting upstreamed"
2016-06-08T14:27:58Z Xach: Google Travel
2016-06-08T14:28:05Z holycow: i always thought google was allergic to lisp.
2016-06-08T14:28:06Z Xach does not know
2016-06-08T14:28:25Z p_l: holycow: it's not allergic, it's "we have very limited general pool of languages"
2016-06-08T14:28:31Z moore33: holycow: They had little choice when they bought ITA.
2016-06-08T14:28:53Z moore33: Though one can read Ron Garret's tale of woe.
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2016-06-08T14:29:33Z holycow: p_l: *nod* and its appropriate too.  the things i've read always seemed like when conversation about lisp came up in some interview or another eye balls rolled
2016-06-08T14:29:36Z holycow: heh
2016-06-08T14:29:51Z p_l: wasn't that about early time in google when they started using java for the first time or so?
2016-06-08T14:29:52Z holycow: moore33: googling that now, sounds intersting
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2016-06-08T14:30:40Z moore33: I remember the line from his manager: "Let me guess, you want to do Smalltalk." :)
2016-06-08T14:30:45Z p_l: http://blog.rongarret.info/2009/12/xooglers-rises-from-ashes.html <--- has link to archive
2016-06-08T14:30:56Z holycow: thx!
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2016-06-08T15:07:24Z DeadTrickster: din don
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2016-06-08T15:08:41Z DeadTrickster: so there is a club for folks who failed google interviews?
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2016-06-08T15:10:43Z p_l: DeadTrickster: dunno :D
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2016-06-08T15:11:13Z p_l: might attract some quite entitled personalities and quickly spiral into bad
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2016-06-08T15:59:24Z pecan: holycow: google has a common lisp style guide, so presumably they're not entirely allergic.
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2016-06-08T16:27:11Z jasom: pecan: There was at one point at least one person in here still doing lisp work at google.
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2016-06-08T16:28:31Z H4ns: they're still using qpx as backend for google flights  which is written in cl.
2016-06-08T16:29:17Z jasom: Also I've noticed Ron tends to up-play controversies in his writing.
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2016-06-08T16:36:58Z fe[nl]ix: there are many people writing Lisp on QPX, just not that many who actually love Lisp
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2016-06-08T16:38:12Z fe[nl]ix: but things are progressing
2016-06-08T16:38:29Z jasom: ah, nothing like forcing someone to use a language to make them hate it.
2016-06-08T16:38:48Z fe[nl]ix: I'm mentoring an intern who will work on the SBCL runtime this summer
2016-06-08T16:39:33Z jasom: nice
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2016-06-08T17:11:51Z p_l: also, didn't ron leave in 2005 or so, and I did hear there were quite a lot of changes since then
2016-06-08T17:12:55Z Xach: no changes
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2016-06-08T17:13:26Z p_l: no changes to the policy of "only accepted languages", afaik, but generally I doubt in 10 years there were no changes in general
2016-06-08T17:13:51Z p_l: the current recruitement process is afaik something from 2007 or so? With incremental changes since then
2016-06-08T17:14:26Z Xach: no changes to google since 2005
2016-06-08T17:14:33Z Xach: reader never sunsetted
2016-06-08T17:14:41Z Xach: groups still useful
2016-06-08T17:14:41Z p_l: hahaha
2016-06-08T17:14:48Z Xach starts to cry
2016-06-08T17:15:38Z p_l: while reader sunsetting was bad... it wasn't *that* bad, though I guess it provided a significant "lighthouse" for RSS to exist around
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2016-06-08T17:15:57Z dlowe: it was worse for google than anything else.
2016-06-08T17:16:11Z p_l: groups I can't argue, though it was pretty bad in general since I ever used it
2016-06-08T17:16:13Z dlowe: there are better alternatives now, as a direct response to reader shutting down
2016-06-08T17:16:50Z p_l: dlowe: I believe one of the points they gave in announcement of sunsetting reader was explicitly "Ooops, we murdered competition in RSS readers"
2016-06-08T17:17:14Z Xach: oops
2016-06-08T17:17:19Z p_l: used newsblur since then, but I might drop it for a different one (in lisp? :D)
2016-06-08T17:17:20Z Xach: good thing that hasn't happened in any other area
2016-06-08T17:17:55Z Xach withdraws
2016-06-08T17:18:01Z p_l: hahahahaha
2016-06-08T17:18:05Z dlowe: p_l: the only point that matters is "we wanted G+ to consume the universe."
2016-06-08T17:18:14Z dlowe: thank goodness they backed off from that.
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2016-06-08T17:20:02Z p_l: dunno. I liked the older G+ more, it worked quite nice. Funnily enough, my use of it kind-of died against twitter, and mostly for non-technical, and not nice social reasons
2016-06-08T17:20:49Z p_l: G+ did not show waves of shit flowing on the internet from paid trolls and random arseholes, and at some point it became important and useful to track *some* of that
2016-06-08T17:21:05Z PuercoPop: p_l: there is one in Lisp, https://tbrss.com/
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2016-06-08T17:21:28Z PuercoPop: (from the google reader shutdown iirc). Although I use newsblur myself
2016-06-08T17:21:29Z dlowe: oh, hey, we were on topic after all! cool!
2016-06-08T17:21:58Z p_l: PuercoPop: hmm... doesn't appear to have an android client
2016-06-08T17:22:07Z dlowe: that's a seriously opinionated product.
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2016-06-08T17:22:38Z dlowe: "If you don't like how it does things, you know where the door is."
2016-06-08T17:22:54Z dlowe: I'm not saying it's bad, just amusing and unusual.
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2016-06-08T17:23:43Z PuercoPop: dlowe: yeah, it is niche. Not for me :'(. But the author shares quite a few libraries on gh as the result of it
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2016-06-08T17:24:01Z p_l: I survived RoR, it's mild
2016-06-08T17:25:11Z p_l: BTW, anyone seen any stuff made with LW mobile stuff yet?
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2016-06-08T17:27:21Z p_l: or something more with mocl?
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2016-06-08T17:29:53Z PuercoPop: p_l: I know there is a game, blocksei, with mocl, and that Opus Modus works on mobile, iOS only, as well (written in CCL, i assume the interface as well)
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2016-06-08T17:31:55Z dlowe: blocksei? cool, I'll try it.
2016-06-08T17:32:02Z dlowe: looks cute.
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2016-06-08T17:35:27Z Grue``: one day I need to try making ichi.moe mobile app
2016-06-08T17:36:08Z dlowe: it's really pretty good
2016-06-08T17:36:48Z PuercoPop: dlowe: yeah, I hope they release their game engine this year, but there is no date afaik
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2016-06-08T18:08:21Z p_l notices he has not really programmed in a really long time, and sees no opportunity to do so anytime soon :(
2016-06-08T18:08:33Z pjb: p_l: week ends?
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2016-06-08T18:08:45Z p_l: pjb: busy
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2016-06-08T18:09:16Z p_l: if not by trying to get the flat into cleaner condition, then there's rare social opportunity (movies etc.)
2016-06-08T18:09:20Z pjb: travel? Nowdays, there are nice little computers you can use even in cramped public transport.
2016-06-08T18:09:43Z p_l: and recently it's been either working weekends (CTFs are mostly on weekends) or hospital
2016-06-08T18:11:04Z pjb: At one time, you'll have to decide that one of the things you'd doing is less important than lisp programming, and kill it.
2016-06-08T18:12:07Z dlowe: did you know that people can survive on less than four hours of sleep a day? :D
2016-06-08T18:12:27Z dlowe: think how much lisp programming you could get done
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2016-06-08T18:14:51Z p_l: hahaha
2016-06-08T18:14:57Z p_l: already pushing close to 4 h
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2016-06-08T18:36:25Z jasom: p_l: what's your day job if you don't mind me asking?
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2016-06-08T18:36:55Z p_l: jasom: for some time, it was Ops works for a project. Now I am in a security team that does not know what it is supposed to do
2016-06-08T18:37:18Z jasom: ah
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2016-06-08T18:37:52Z p_l: so far we took part in two CTFs
2016-06-08T18:39:24Z loke: p_l: what's a ctf?
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2016-06-08T18:39:54Z Fade: capture the flag
2016-06-08T18:39:57Z Fade: a competition.
2016-06-08T18:40:22Z p_l: a type of infosec competition in this case
2016-06-08T18:40:36Z p_l: where each task gives you a "flag" which is your proof of solving it
2016-06-08T18:40:51Z p_l: also, there are competitions where you need to plant a flag on competitor's computer xD
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2016-06-08T18:41:31Z p_l: tends to drain all power from me, though
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2016-06-08T18:47:40Z PuercoPop: p_l: wait your job is to 'play'/compete on CTFs? as in they pay you for that? or is it more of a company-wide marketing strategy?
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2016-06-08T18:50:17Z loke: Is there a good CLIM example application that I can look at? I need something that implements some basic stuff like an updated list of clickable things, input fields, etc.
2016-06-08T18:51:03Z p_l: PuercoPop: it's one of the things the security team is trying to do, with eye towards marketing
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2016-06-08T19:00:32Z p_l: PuercoPop: it's not as glamorous as it sounds, especially when you don't have that much logistical support
2016-06-08T19:01:22Z jasom: loke: good luck; there are a lot of poor examples, but it's hard to find good ones.  ask beach if you get a chance (he's in hear mornings and evenings France time)
2016-06-08T19:01:29Z p_l: or when you wake up on saturday at 4:30, do some stuff important for household, then sleepy go to work late at 17:30, only to find out that other are even more late (you were supposed to start at 17:00), and then there's 24h of toil
2016-06-08T19:01:40Z loke: jasom: Yeah, I'll find him when I'm back in Singapore time :-)
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2016-06-08T19:07:37Z TruePika: Well, my code hasn't been exhausting heap anymore...
2016-06-08T19:07:51Z TruePika: ...its been crashing for other reasons, from unexpected input
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2016-06-08T19:08:26Z TruePika: like U+FFFE being fed into cl-libxml2 as part of a UTF-8 string
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2016-06-08T19:08:43Z TruePika: which is not a valid Unicode character, and only exists as a BOM for UTF16
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2016-06-08T19:13:33Z loke: TruePika: You can have the BOM starting an UTF-8 sequence as well, although it's discouraged.
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2016-06-08T19:13:44Z TruePika: loke: This is the middle of a string
2016-06-08T19:14:12Z TruePika: and I just checked the HTML frontend
2016-06-08T19:14:15Z loke: Windows applications often have a tendency to do that, since they often work with UTF-16 internally.
2016-06-08T19:14:30Z TruePika: it used CP1252 for an encoding...and resulted in a NULL
2016-06-08T19:14:43Z loke: TruePika: Some moron decided that he could concatenate stings together willy nilly?
2016-06-08T19:15:10Z jasom: TruePika: windows uses a BOM at the beginning of text files in UTF-8 in order to detect the file type.  MS got screwed for being an early adopter of unicode
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2016-06-08T19:15:44Z TruePika: This seems like a faulty sanity check on the remote DB
2016-06-08T19:16:28Z TruePika: I _think_ that this specific entry would have been submitted as HTTP POST to the remote DB (I have no way to verify)
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2016-06-08T19:17:29Z TruePika: in fact, I'm not sure there's a way to add rows without HTTP POST
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2016-06-08T19:18:34Z TruePika: I don't remember if the JSON interface returns this column
2016-06-08T19:18:55Z TruePika: I also don't know what row this is <_<
2016-06-08T19:19:35Z TruePika: meh, I readded my code to translate "bad codepoints" to #\REPLACEMENT_CHARACTER for the meantime
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2016-06-08T19:20:11Z TruePika: might also need to verify that nothing weird got into my local DB
2016-06-08T19:20:43Z TruePika: which will probably be a very inefficient SQL query
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2016-06-08T19:21:05Z TruePika wonders if his DB even allows e.g. U+FFFE to get in
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2016-06-08T19:22:48Z loke: TruePika: What DB is this?
2016-06-08T19:23:38Z TruePika: loke: MySQL InnoDB using UTF-8 for the charset
2016-06-08T19:23:51Z loke: TruePika: Ouch.
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2016-06-08T19:25:36Z TruePika: Thankfully I recently redid the entire schema (which is why I'm needing to rewrite this code), so it is considered at least partially safe to drop random rows from the table which might have the weird data
2016-06-08T19:25:56Z loke: TruePika: Why didn't you change database while you were at it?
2016-06-08T19:26:03Z DeadTrickster: TruePika, I see you a lot these days, whats up?
2016-06-08T19:26:17Z TruePika: loke: because I don't have issues with MySQL
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2016-06-08T19:26:57Z TruePika: DeadTrickster: been rewriting a _single file_ in some of my code to support a restructured DB, and been running into lots of problems which, for some reason, didn't surface before
2016-06-08T19:27:13Z TruePika: in fact, just _two functions_
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2016-06-08T19:28:43Z TruePika: they query a remote DB through XML, HTML, and JSON interfaces (I think the JSON interface has been entirely rewritten and fixed), but from the addition of a couple new foreign keys in my local DB, I needed to add in code to fetch data for those FKs if I don't already have it, etc.
2016-06-08T19:29:07Z TruePika: this is all just so I have a local mirror of a subset of said remote DB
2016-06-08T19:29:30Z TruePika: (one that also allows SQL statements)
2016-06-08T19:30:15Z DeadTrickster: what mysql client you use?
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2016-06-08T19:31:07Z TruePika: DeadTrickster: DBI in Lisp, the regular command-line tool for admin
2016-06-08T19:31:24Z TruePika: I don't use a client for the remote DB, hence all this code I'm needing to write
2016-06-08T19:32:11Z TruePika: there are no interfaces aside from JSON/XML to the remote database, and even _that_ doesn't provide all the rows I need, so I also need to get some HTML
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2016-06-08T19:32:49Z TruePika: (specifically, a single foreign key is only availible through HTML requests)
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2016-06-08T19:34:38Z TruePika: I've always used DBI for MySQL interaction
2016-06-08T19:34:42Z DeadTrickster: so it's still libmysql under the hood
2016-06-08T19:35:03Z TruePika: probably, you'd have to check dbd.mysql
2016-06-08T19:35:40Z DeadTrickster: libmysql is shit anyway so you are out of luck )
2016-06-08T19:36:05Z TruePika: I'm not having any issues with interacting with my own DB :)
2016-06-08T19:36:25Z DeadTrickster: that's because you are not web scale (tm)
2016-06-08T19:36:26Z DeadTrickster: lol
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2016-06-08T19:48:43Z TruePika: hm, somehow cl-libxml2, in the not-main-thread (but controlled with a mutex), when parsing HTML, outputs warnings still, even when I'm suppressing them
2016-06-08T19:49:10Z TruePika: going to have to investigate that, find out if it is cl-libxml2 or libxml2 itself
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2016-06-08T21:49:58Z phoe_krk: Are there any general guidelines for constructing servers in Common Lisp?
2016-06-08T21:50:11Z zdm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-06-08T21:50:33Z phoe_krk: Like - stuff applying specifically to writing server applications in CL, that isn't already covered elsewhere?
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2016-06-08T21:52:55Z jasom: phoe_krk: If you can write server applications in (not CL) then writing server applications in CL should be a breeze
2016-06-08T21:53:44Z phoe_krk: jasom: (let's say that) I can write server applications in (not CL). Is there anything in particular I should remember when writing such in CL?
2016-06-08T21:53:53Z jasom: nothing comes to mind
2016-06-08T21:54:35Z jasom: conditions are *awesome* for servers, by the way, as they give you more ability to do something useful with exceptional situations than any exception system I've ever used.
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2016-06-08T21:55:58Z jasom: Adding a simple combination of trivial-backtrace and handler-bind to log all uncaught conditions in your main loop is a good idea
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2016-06-08T21:58:15Z Bike: is trivial backtrace supposed to work? i tried using it last month and found out that it failed on sbcl and that sbcl had since exported an interface for backtraces anyway.
2016-06-08T21:58:25Z jasom: oh, I use dissect now it turns out
2016-06-08T21:58:39Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/cl-fccs/blob/master/src/clackup.lisp#L45
2016-06-08T21:58:43Z Bike: oh right, shinmera's thing
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2016-06-08T22:00:02Z jasom: oh, I just noticed dissect has present which would be better for me to use in that macro
2016-06-08T22:00:34Z phoe_krk: Oh, about testing - fiveam or 1am?
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2016-06-08T22:01:22Z jasom: phoe_krk: honestly, I just use one function for each test and call each of them.  I haven't taken the time to learn any of the CL testing tools
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2016-06-08T22:02:09Z phoe_krk: jasom: oh. So it looks like 1am will do.
2016-06-08T22:02:23Z phoe_krk: As it's 60LOC from what the author says.
2016-06-08T22:02:28Z jasom: yeah
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2016-06-08T22:02:42Z phoe_krk: https://github.com/lmj/1am/blob/master/1am.lisp
2016-06-08T22:03:05Z jasom: "testing" is a very vague requirement.  Different people test in very different ways
2016-06-08T22:03:33Z jasom: I tend to avoid unit tests except where it's easier to check for correctness than to generate a correct answer.
2016-06-08T22:03:47Z phoe_krk: jasom: I want to test TDD in this case.
2016-06-08T22:04:44Z jasom: TDD as in "write the failing unit test first" TDD?
2016-06-08T22:05:52Z phoe_krk: Ayup.
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2016-06-08T22:07:54Z pecan: lol TDD. fiveam is nice though, and super easy to get started with.
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2016-06-08T22:09:15Z phoe_krk: pecan: why lol? Is it not worth the shot?
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2016-06-08T22:11:01Z pecan: wasted time, and most of TDD tests aren't useful anyway. TDD ends up testing trivial things instead of the architecture of the program. *testing* is a Good Thing™, but the hardcore test-first zealots are stupid.
2016-06-08T22:11:24Z pecan: DHH has a nice rant about it http://david.heinemeierhansson.com/2014/tdd-is-dead-long-live-testing.html
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2016-06-08T22:13:39Z pecan: TDD ends up obsessed with unit tests for every individual function instead of higher-level tests.
2016-06-08T22:13:41Z phoe_krk: pecan: yes, I've read it.
2016-06-08T22:14:35Z pecan: Lisp in particular is not well suited for TDD IMO. It is considerably more productive to "test" in the REPL as you develop, then just copy that into a file later.
2016-06-08T22:15:01Z phoe_krk: I see.
2016-06-08T22:15:34Z phoe_krk: ...well, corporate languages certainly lack all sorts of interactivity while programming and/or debugging.
2016-06-08T22:15:37Z pecan: anyway, I'm not necessarily going to talk you out of TDD, and regardless I find 5am quite easy to work with.
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2016-06-08T22:16:18Z phoe_krk: I might just go the other way and turn my code into a condition polygon.
2016-06-08T22:16:27Z phoe_krk: As jasom suggested above.
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2016-06-08T22:17:33Z pecan: That works too. I could see that getting slightly unwieldly as your codebase grows, but maybe not.
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2016-06-08T22:19:38Z phoe_krk: Why? If I generate my own condition system, I'll mostly be able to discern what happened where by looking at a signal type.
2016-06-08T22:19:42Z jasom: testing is great, I love testing.  I just find that most code doesn't work well with unit testing.  One more place (before what I mentioned earlier) where unit testing can work well is when it is very simple to generate the correct solution in a suboptimal manner, but you need more optimal code.
2016-06-08T22:20:08Z phoe_krk: And by following the principle that an unhandled signal is a big bug.
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