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2016-05-28T01:55:03Z aeth: Is this table accurate? https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor#cl-implementations
2016-05-28T01:55:37Z aeth: Iirc, there was a discussion in here a while ago about the limits to portability so I put together a table giving reasons why certain implementations aren't supported.
2016-05-28T01:56:02Z aeth: I think there are probably some more issues with the ones that are not supported, and I could be wrong on some of the ?s
2016-05-28T01:58:26Z Bike: asdf version isn't, like, intrinsic to the implementation. newer asdf probably works on clisp, since asdf supports friggin everything
2016-05-28T01:58:47Z aeth: That is not the only issue with CLISP, just the only one I could find at the moment
2016-05-28T01:59:07Z aeth: Iirc, it failed at running cl-sdl2 before I introduced the ASDF 3.1.2 requirement
2016-05-28T02:04:19Z akkad: how do you get slime to reload a ql package you are fixing. I correct a asdf issue, and have to restart repl to see the code changes to the src files.
2016-05-28T02:05:46Z aeth: I usually just M-x s-r-i-l when I change a package.
2016-05-28T02:07:16Z akkad: thanks
2016-05-28T02:08:15Z akkad: any idea what that is bound to?
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2016-05-28T02:08:49Z Xach: It isn't bound.
2016-05-28T02:09:09Z Xach: You can recompile source files with C-c C-k.
2016-05-28T02:09:13Z Xach: Or reload with C-c C-l.
2016-05-28T02:09:29Z akkad: k.
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2016-05-28T02:10:54Z dto: Xach have you ever run a source line of code counting tool (such as sloccount) on the whole of Quicklisp to see how big it is?
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2016-05-28T02:11:02Z Xach: dto: no
2016-05-28T02:11:31Z aeth: dto: Do any of those tools properly handle CL docstrings? I don't think that they do.
2016-05-28T02:11:55Z dto: i think someone around here knows one that does. what is the proper handling? not count them as code?
2016-05-28T02:11:58Z aeth: i.e. docstring lines should be marked as comments
2016-05-28T02:12:11Z dto: ok.
2016-05-28T02:12:12Z aeth: In tools that split between comments and actual code
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2016-05-28T02:15:34Z aeth: akkad: Oh, sorry, I probably misinterpreted your question. If you just change source files, C-c C-k works for me.
2016-05-28T02:15:38Z aeth: As Xach said
2016-05-28T02:15:38Z akkad: (compile "echo '(ql:quickload :mypkg)'|sbcl") works perfect, and is fast and deterministic.
2016-05-28T02:15:58Z akkad: converting to asdf
2016-05-28T02:16:20Z aeth: I thought you were talking about correcting problems with the package or system definitions, which sometimes requires a restart of the REPL
2016-05-28T02:17:03Z aeth: The main flaw I've found with package-inferred-system is that it seems to increase the number of times where I need to restart the REPL
2016-05-28T02:17:25Z aeth: e.g. when I remove exports iirc
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2016-05-28T03:08:09Z gabriel_laddel: jackdaniel: u there?
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2016-05-28T03:14:45Z gabriel_laddel: jackdaniel: in any case, I'm curious as to your thoughts re updating the McCLIM website gallery & adding a "what people are saying about CLIM section"
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2016-05-28T03:55:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-05-28T03:55:47Z minion: beach, memo from jackdaniel: we have to rethink making pixie and truetype the default – it's slow. I think about creating some benchmarks to measure it and about adding back the freetype font backend to compare it if it's any better
2016-05-28T03:55:47Z minion: beach, memo from jackdaniel: scratch that, now everything seems to work fast even with a pretty theme. Maybe it was something on my side
2016-05-28T03:56:03Z beach: minion: Thanks!
2016-05-28T03:56:03Z minion: you're welcome
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2016-05-28T04:27:24Z beach: Am I right in thinking that any Common Lisp system that is written in something other than Common Lisp must have at least two readers?  One reader is necessarily a subset of what READ can do and it is written in that other language (so that some initial Common Lisp code can be read), and one is the full reader written in Common Lisp.
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2016-05-28T04:30:07Z Quadrescence: beach, why does the second have to be in CL
2016-05-28T04:33:19Z beach: Hmm, maybe there doesn't have to be a second one.
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2016-05-28T04:33:49Z beach: I was thinking about constructs such as .# but the foreign reader can call the evaluated.
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2016-05-28T04:44:42Z beach: the EVALUATOR.
2016-05-28T04:44:48Z beach: Too early in the morning.
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2016-05-28T04:49:20Z jasom: yeah, I've written READ in the host language and the reader macros could be written in either the host language or common lisp
2016-05-28T04:49:40Z jasom: READ itself does almost nothing
2016-05-28T04:50:26Z jasom: I actually wish it did even less
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2016-05-28T05:09:19Z tmss: hello, could anyone tell me how to get a ip address of a host in sbcl?thanks.
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2016-05-28T05:10:08Z jasom: tmss: you mean like a hostname lookup?
2016-05-28T05:10:26Z tmss: yes
2016-05-28T05:11:32Z tmss: how should i do for that?
2016-05-28T05:11:54Z jasom: sb-bsd-sockets:get-host-by-name
2016-05-28T05:12:59Z jasom: actually that just gives you a host-ent you'll need to get the addresses out of that
2016-05-28T05:13:25Z tmss: i'm newbie to lisp, i don't know how invoke that, do you give me a simple code?
2016-05-28T05:13:57Z jasom:  (sb-bsd-sockets:host-ent-address (sb-bsd-sockets:get-host-by-name "google.com"))
2016-05-28T05:14:10Z reepca: I think there's a channel specifically for learning, though I forget its name.
2016-05-28T05:14:35Z tmss: i try it now, thank you so much.
2016-05-28T05:14:48Z jasom: reepca: everyone forgets its name, so questions in here are fine
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2016-05-28T05:15:59Z tmss: i get an error.
2016-05-28T05:16:09Z tmss: Package SB-BSD-SOCKETS does not exist.
2016-05-28T05:16:29Z tmss: i use sbcl for windows.
2016-05-28T05:16:52Z jasom: tmss: you may need to do (asdf:load-system :sb-bsd-sockets) first
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2016-05-28T05:19:00Z tmss: oh,no, i get a error "Package ASDF does not exist." this time.
2016-05-28T05:19:51Z schally: tmss: try installing quicklisp, then loading stuff through there
2016-05-28T05:19:52Z jasom: okay (require 'asdf) first
2016-05-28T05:20:28Z jasom: but yes, you should probably install quicklisp.  What OS are you on tmss?
2016-05-28T05:20:43Z tmss: ahaha, it work!
2016-05-28T05:20:55Z tmss:  windwos  7
2016-05-28T05:21:02Z tmss: windows 7
2016-05-28T05:21:10Z tmss:  yes, it work now.
2016-05-28T05:21:18Z tmss:  thank you very much!!!
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2016-05-28T05:22:07Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/lispstick-automate/releases/download/0.1/lispstick-sbcl-1.3.5-emacs-24.4.zip  <-- there's a zipfile that includes emacs, slime, sbcl, and quicklisp.  No need to use it now, but those tools will give you a much better development experience if you ever go past just trying a few things.
2016-05-28T05:22:20Z zRecursive: v
2016-05-28T05:22:26Z jasom: just unzip it anywhere you like and then double click on "run.bat"
2016-05-28T05:23:10Z tmss: ok, i will  try it later.
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2016-05-28T05:25:06Z beach: jasom: Yes, I am now convinced that the reader can be entirely in that other language.
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2016-05-28T05:26:27Z jasom just wishes there were a hook in the reader for "I'm about to turn this token into a symbol" that would allow things like portable implementations of package-local nicknames and portable psuedo-number extensions
2016-05-28T05:26:47Z beach: jasom: I am working on that kind of reader.
2016-05-28T05:26:57Z beach: I need it for the incremental parser of Second Climacs.
2016-05-28T05:27:05Z jasom: beach: there is one like that in informatimago
2016-05-28T05:27:15Z beach: Oh, nice.  I'll look at it.
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2016-05-28T05:30:54Z jasom: nevermind, looks like I remembered wrong.  It's just a complete implementation of READ, and I copy-pasted the central function to call my hook instead
2016-05-28T05:33:05Z jasom: oh, and I misread my old code, it does have a hook, caled "readtable-parse-token" the part I copy-pasted was what would parse all of the normal things (consing dot, integer, float) before parsing the symbol.  So it's not quite what I asked for (no way to say to only call you if it's not a number or consing dot)
2016-05-28T05:33:17Z jasom: but that's probably good enough
2016-05-28T05:33:20Z jasom: or even better
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2016-05-28T05:33:58Z akkad: in uiop/package you can use use-reexport for sub packages. mypkg/foo mypkg/bar etc. in defpackage is the equivalent called module?
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2016-05-28T05:37:32Z jasom: defpackage doesn't have any mention of module
2016-05-28T05:37:44Z akkad: ok
2016-05-28T05:38:26Z akkad: appears uiop/package:define-package is not really used. so will just do it the right way with defpackage/asd
2016-05-28T05:38:34Z jasom: the only way I know is to manually reexport them in defpackage.
2016-05-28T05:38:48Z akkad: defsystem rather
2016-05-28T05:39:08Z jasom: wait, do you care about systems or packages?
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2016-05-28T05:40:20Z akkad: it's late, probably packages. but looking at alexandria.asd
2016-05-28T05:40:25Z akkad: is probably a bad example
2016-05-28T05:40:29Z akkad: for something tiny
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2016-05-28T06:26:46Z jackdaniel: gabriel_laddel: I'll respond on your email soon, sorry for delay. It's a great idea :)
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2016-05-28T06:37:15Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Bootstrap-Common-Lisp :)
2016-05-28T06:37:57Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
2016-05-28T06:38:10Z beach: What is gabriel_laddel's idea?
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2016-05-28T06:39:23Z Bike: make the type tag a pointer to the class. how has this never occurred to me.
2016-05-28T06:40:08Z beach: That's how PCL does it, but only for standard objects, of course.
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2016-05-28T06:40:28Z Bike: well, yes, right. i mean, i have a C lisp lying around and i just used dumb tags.
2016-05-28T06:41:01Z beach: Well, perhaps you didn't want to sacrifice all performance the way I am willing to do with BOCL.
2016-05-28T06:41:21Z beach: Also, most Common Lisp implementation don't have CLOS initially, so there are not class objects.
2016-05-28T06:41:38Z Bike: no, i mean i used this same representation but the header was a nonce word instead of a pointer.
2016-05-28T06:41:50Z beach: Ah, I see.
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2016-05-28T06:49:42Z jasom: beach: I'm still not sure what problem BOCL solves that wouldn't be solved by a self-hosted lisp implementation that can cross compile.
2016-05-28T06:50:16Z beach: jasom: It doesn't solve any REAL existing problem.
2016-05-28T06:50:59Z beach: It is designed to solve the psychological problem that seems to make it necessary for so many existing Common Lisp implementations to be build from something other than Common Lisp.
2016-05-28T06:51:21Z beach: to be BUILT.
2016-05-28T06:52:18Z jasom: I think so many existing common lisp implementations are built from something other than common lisp because syscalls are easy to do from C, and C is historically the de-facto IR for higher level languages.
2016-05-28T06:52:39Z jackdaniel: beach: sorry, was afk
2016-05-28T06:52:55Z jackdaniel: the idea is to add quotes of people opinions about McCLIM
2016-05-28T06:53:03Z jackdaniel: something of "get excited" kind of thing
2016-05-28T06:53:04Z beach: jackdaniel: Oh, right.
2016-05-28T06:53:52Z beach: jasom: Maybe so, but I don't believe that there is a causality relation here.  I don't believe that just because C is the IR language, the implementation has to be mainly written in C.
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2016-05-28T06:55:04Z jackdaniel: well, I share that opinion of you that many design decisions regarding the CL implementations was done in a circumstances, when there wasn't any complete CL implementation back then
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2016-05-28T06:55:34Z ludston: Yo
2016-05-28T06:55:41Z beach: Hello ludston.
2016-05-28T06:55:43Z jackdaniel: hey
2016-05-28T06:56:05Z beach: jasom: A minor problem that BOCL solves is that, even though there might be an existing Common Lisp implementation for the platform that can be used to bootstrap a new system, the existing Common Lisp implementation can be difficult to install.  And the reason for that is that they have speed as an objective, so they do things that complicate the installation.
2016-05-28T06:56:16Z ludston: I need some advice. <- What's the recommended way to do an event loop in SBCL?
2016-05-28T06:56:46Z beach: (loop for event = (read-event) do (process-event event))
2016-05-28T06:57:02Z jackdaniel: ludston: you may want to check on cl-async
2016-05-28T06:57:08Z ludston: Sweet, thanks.
2016-05-28T06:57:09Z jackdaniel: which is unix specific
2016-05-28T06:57:12Z jackdaniel: though
2016-05-28T06:57:35Z jasom: beach: the other issue is that lisps implemented in C (whether or not they use C as an IR) tend to have mediocre codegen, which pushes more of the implementation into C for performance reasons
2016-05-28T06:57:52Z ludston: jackdaniel: Thanks. I will check it out.
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2016-05-28T06:57:58Z beach: jasom: I think you are right about that.
2016-05-28T06:58:14Z jackdaniel: ludston: well, I'm not sure if it's unix specific
2016-05-28T06:58:20Z jackdaniel: don't rely on that information :)
2016-05-28T06:58:24Z jasom: basic-binary-ipc is portable and I think in the same space as cl-async
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2016-05-28T06:58:53Z jackdaniel: it even seem to be a general purpose lib in countrary to my first claim
2016-05-28T06:59:15Z jasom: oh not quite the same space as cl-async, basic-binary-ipc does not include a full event loop
2016-05-28T07:00:07Z jasom: oh, the date just changed; time for me to go to bed.
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2016-05-28T07:00:23Z beach: 'night jasom.
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2016-05-28T07:00:42Z ludston: jackdaniel: Yeah. Looks like libevent is supported on windows. > Whether or not it is easy to package on windows is another story haha.
2016-05-28T07:00:54Z jasom thought cl-async used libuv
2016-05-28T07:01:26Z akkad: man.
2016-05-28T07:01:31Z beach: jackdaniel: The interesting thing is that even new Common Lisp implementations such as JSCL contemplate writing large parts of it in a language other than Common Lisp.
2016-05-28T07:01:41Z ludston: jasom: Maybe I'm reading too fast
2016-05-28T07:02:22Z jasom: I've found windows to be the easiest OS to package for.  Drop all the .DLLs in the same directory as the .exe and you're done.
2016-05-28T07:02:35Z jasom: beach: I thought jscl was self-hosting?
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2016-05-28T07:02:42Z ludston: jasom: There you go http://orthecreedence.github.io/cl-async/2014/11/29/cl-async-now-using-libuv.html
2016-05-28T07:04:35Z jasom: beach: looking at jscl it seems to be all .lisp except for the jquery libraries used
2016-05-28T07:05:10Z beach: jasom: Oh?  I am surprised.
2016-05-28T07:06:11Z beach: jasom: I talked to phoe_krk about it, and he seemed to imply that they are trying to design a build process that is very similar to the one used by Common Lisp implementations written in C.
2016-05-28T07:06:31Z beach: jasom: But I admit not having looked into it myself.
2016-05-28T07:06:38Z jasom: https://github.com/davazp/jscl/blob/master/src/compiler/compiler.lisp
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2016-05-28T07:07:38Z beach: OK.
2016-05-28T07:08:34Z beach: I also received email from TAKAGI Masayuki asking me about Cleavir, which I took to mean that JSCL is not complete yet.
2016-05-28T07:08:44Z jasom: very not complete
2016-05-28T07:08:47Z jasom: was never planed to be complete
2016-05-28T07:08:58Z beach: Ah, I see.
2016-05-28T07:09:01Z jasom: the implementation lacks bignums for example
2016-05-28T07:09:12Z jasom: no CLOS nor format last time I checked, I think loop is finished now though
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2016-05-28T07:10:15Z jasom: all numbers are double-precision floats.  That's an *easy* fix though if you don't care about fixnum performance as someone implemented the entire scheme numeric stack in js already.
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2016-05-28T07:29:40Z jackdaniel: beach: because in the browser it's the same story as on *nix back in years when CL were implemented
2016-05-28T07:29:46Z jackdaniel: well, not really, there is parenscript
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2016-05-28T07:30:10Z jackdaniel: but you know what I mean, the host supports only javascript for now
2016-05-28T07:30:41Z jackdaniel: and each layer of indirection makes it slower (js is pretty messy fwiw)
2016-05-28T07:30:59Z beach: jackdaniel: Yes, but I am still convinced that there is no reason to implement a Common Lisp implementation in language X just because language is the target language for the compiler.
2016-05-28T07:31:51Z beach: jackdaniel: The only reason I have heard for doing it that way rings artificial in my ear, i.e. "It seems natural to do it that way."
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2016-05-28T07:32:34Z jackdaniel: beach: I'm not sure if I understand. JSCL doesn't generate javascript afaik it has it's own bytecode – how do you imagine imlementing it in something different than js to run on js?
2016-05-28T07:32:54Z beach: jackdaniel: See, that is exactly my point.
2016-05-28T07:33:06Z beach: jackdaniel: It can be implemented in Common Lisp.
2016-05-28T07:33:42Z jackdaniel: OK, so how do we compile it to work on a platform which supports only js?
2016-05-28T07:34:00Z White_Flame: eh, for browser use I want it to be able to receive and execute lambdas, which will generally require some form of eval
2016-05-28T07:34:03Z jackdaniel: given it's written in 100% Common Lisp and it's an intepreter
2016-05-28T07:34:25Z ludston: jackdaniel: I assume beach is implying that you can use CL to output javascript
2016-05-28T07:34:32Z beach: jackdaniel: The REAL solution to that problem is cross compilation.  The PSYCHOLOGICAL solution to that problem is BOCL.
2016-05-28T07:34:55Z Bike: how does actually existing as a repo factor into the psychological requirement, as a sidenote
2016-05-28T07:35:36Z beach: Bike: What are you referring to, i.e., what is it that actually exists as a repo?
2016-05-28T07:35:41Z Bike: BOCL
2016-05-28T07:35:51Z beach: Good question.  I have no idea.
2016-05-28T07:36:00Z Bike: i know you mentioned that earlier, but the README seems too involved to just be satirical oh well ok.
2016-05-28T07:36:13Z beach: No, no, it is not satire.
2016-05-28T07:36:26Z jackdaniel: beach: so you say, that such implementation should be compiled with something like a parenscript? such level of indirection will make it slower, what isn't only psychological
2016-05-28T07:36:27Z beach: I am really proposing that BOCL be written.
2016-05-28T07:36:36Z jackdaniel: ludston: parenscript transpiles CL to javascript, it might be done that way
2016-05-28T07:36:46Z White_Flame: aren't earlier versions of CLISP basically what BOCL wants to be?
2016-05-28T07:36:49Z Bike: that's good, because i'm adapting the non-CL interpreter i have already
2016-05-28T07:36:51Z jackdaniel: sorry, but what BOCL is? boostrap common lisp?
2016-05-28T07:36:55Z Bike: yes
2016-05-28T07:36:59Z beach: jackdaniel: The compilation of the initial system will be slow.  Once the compiler generates the best target code possible, that is no longer the case.
2016-05-28T07:37:20Z ludston: jackdaniel: clojurescript does it, and it works fine. You just lose run-time access to macro's.
2016-05-28T07:37:26Z beach: White_Flame: Possibly yes, but not it is actually very difficult to install.
2016-05-28T07:37:49Z beach: jackdaniel: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Bootstrap-Common-Lisp
2016-05-28T07:37:59Z jackdaniel: beach: you assume that the "best target code possible" may be acquired with automatic methods, I'm not sure if the "sufficiently smart compiler" idea isn't to hard to take it as eventually granted
2016-05-28T07:39:15Z beach: jackdaniel: Sure, it is possible that some performance-critical code will have to be written in the target language.  All I am claiming is that the amount of code currently written in the target language of most Common Lisp systems written in something else, is grossly exaggerated.
2016-05-28T07:39:16Z jackdaniel reads the readme
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2016-05-28T07:41:25Z beach: White_Flame: But NOW, it is actually difficult to install.
2016-05-28T07:41:31Z beach: *sigh*
2016-05-28T07:41:42Z beach wonders what happened to his typing skills today.
2016-05-28T07:41:51Z dmiles: i wish there was a bare minimum lisp one could implemenmt that was about the size of lisp500 that made it all the way to passing all the ansi tests andd things
2016-05-28T07:41:55Z White_Flame wonders what happen to his typing skills every single day...
2016-05-28T07:42:00Z White_Flame: *happened :-P
2016-05-28T07:42:14Z White_Flame: probably wore them out in my 20s
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2016-05-28T07:42:34Z beach: dmiles: Why do you wish that?
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2016-05-28T07:42:48Z Bike: 500 lines is kind of short for something with a thousand defined symbols
2016-05-28T07:42:59Z dmiles: beyond passing the ansi tests onward to having clos
2016-05-28T07:43:00Z White_Flame: beach: for one, it would be a great playground for modified versions of CL
2016-05-28T07:43:26Z White_Flame: especially creating new ABIs
2016-05-28T07:43:29Z jackdaniel: beach: I think that clisp is just the thing the readme describes (+/- some things)
2016-05-28T07:43:49Z dmiles: beach: White_Flame's answer
2016-05-28T07:44:11Z dmiles: Bike: hah.. well i assume the rest is written in lisp but targeting no machione
2016-05-28T07:44:25Z Bike: I don't know what that means.
2016-05-28T07:44:34Z beach: jackdaniel: As I have pointed out several times, I don't think it is.  The reason is that it is concerned with performance, so it is complicated by this fact.  This complication also makes it have dependencies that are non-trivial to install.
2016-05-28T07:45:05Z White_Flame: beach: but as long as it runs CL, and can compile anywhere (not sure how true this is with CL anymore), then its implementation details are irrelevant to the issue of bootstrapping
2016-05-28T07:45:44Z dmiles: Bike: i mean if someone implmented a lisp in python.. i wish they could have a simple target that after the fact the rest of the system could be loaded as lisp filkes
2016-05-28T07:45:44Z jackdaniel: beach: these modules (if you refere to ffi and signal libraries) are optional afaik. I believe it would be easier to fix and simplify clisp (or ecl) than write a new implementation from scratch
2016-05-28T07:45:48Z White_Flame: I mean, once you have a lisp you've hoisted yourself up to working in pure CL.  You'll still have the issues of generating compiled code from _your_ CL implementation for the new platform, but you'll at least be running CL there
2016-05-28T07:45:53Z Bike: i think if you really wanted the C dependencies could just be boehm (or MPS, which has provisions for running without a full C, even) and maybe GMP to make things easier for yourself.
2016-05-28T07:45:55Z beach: White_Flame: But it can't compile anywhere.  Also, it is not conforming.  And because of the way it is written (i.e, caring about performance) it is hard to maintain.
2016-05-28T07:46:21Z dmiles: Bike: sort of such impls exist but they unfortounatly do things like make exiectuables
2016-05-28T07:46:41Z aeth: Bike: Why does the GC need to be in C? Couldn't you write a mini-language and a mini-compiler that's just enough to run the GC? (I think you might have hinted at that with MPS)
2016-05-28T07:46:49Z White_Flame: (I also think that conservative GC is a red herring, and a fully tagged precise system would be best if you want to keep it simple and straightforward)
2016-05-28T07:46:52Z aeth: C's a tiny language but it probably has some overhead
2016-05-28T07:46:59Z dmiles: Bike: i want to write a lisp in Prolog
2016-05-28T07:47:09Z beach: jackdaniel: I am willing to believe you that it is easy to strip CLISP of those libraries, remove the bytecode interpreter, etc, etc, and then make it conforming.  But I won't do it.
2016-05-28T07:47:23Z Bike: aeth: C is not tiny, but I'm talking particular about beach's BOCL thing, which is in C to begin with.
2016-05-28T07:47:27Z Bike: particularly
2016-05-28T07:47:30Z dmiles: Bike: how much of the Lisp language do i have to impl,ent before i can start including the libraries the define the rest of a lisp system?
2016-05-28T07:47:44Z aeth: Bike: C is tiny by modern standards
2016-05-28T07:47:46Z Bike: depends on how those libraries are written
2016-05-28T07:48:13Z dmiles: Bike: can i fiund these libraries already written someplace?
2016-05-28T07:48:15Z Bike: aeth: have you seen the standard? i'm just sayin, shit is complex
2016-05-28T07:48:24Z Bike: dmiles: your lisp implementation, probably
2016-05-28T07:48:42Z dmiles: Bike: mayb ei can use ABCLs
2016-05-28T07:48:44Z Bike: like, if you look up the LOOP or FORMAT, it's probably not written in snobol.
2016-05-28T07:48:55Z Bike: or, of course, there is SICL.
2016-05-28T07:49:07Z White_Flame: C doesn't have a lot of elements, but it has a ton of strange semantics
2016-05-28T07:49:17Z dmiles: the problem with SBCL is it tries to emit smart ASM (i think)
2016-05-28T07:49:17Z aeth: Does SICL have CFFI yet?
2016-05-28T07:49:19Z Bike: the upgrading...
2016-05-28T07:49:28Z jackdaniel: beach: but back to my previous point - my point is that it is arguably easier to write an interpreter in the host language than the cross-compiler and an interpreter in CL (however, if you already have CL implementation of interpreter you'd have to only write the cross-compiler of course)
2016-05-28T07:49:45Z dmiles: i have no way to run that ASM on my snobal implmented python
2016-05-28T07:49:58Z jackdaniel: aeth: (?)
2016-05-28T07:50:00Z Bike: dmiles: i mean the source of sbcl.
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2016-05-28T07:50:42Z dmiles: right yes defiantely sbcl source in this way is ideal.. except if it ever emits processor dependant code instead of being lisp interpror
2016-05-28T07:50:43Z aeth: jackdaniel: SICL is afaik incomplete. There are also a lot of things that aren't part of the standard but are useful, e.g. MOP, CFFI, etc.
2016-05-28T07:51:04Z Bike: okay but i'm talking about the source. you don't even have to run sbcl. just... look at the source files.
2016-05-28T07:51:20Z dmiles: the fear of sbcl is there are some functions that are not written in lisp
2016-05-28T07:51:26Z dmiles: (not C function either)
2016-05-28T07:51:27Z Bike: yes, some.
2016-05-28T07:51:30Z Bike: but: not most.
2016-05-28T07:51:50Z jackdaniel: aeth: cffi is a portability layer, while mop is a standard. I don't think sicl aims at ffi at the moment, but beach is a person to ask
2016-05-28T07:52:06Z dmiles: i mean some functions only are implmented to target a cpu right?
2016-05-28T07:52:26Z dmiles: (for example the impl of upgrade some vector)
2016-05-28T07:52:31Z Bike: some functions are implemented as compiler intrinsics. i'm saying use the ones that aren't.
2016-05-28T07:52:31Z dmiles: (not is C or lisp)
2016-05-28T07:52:35Z Bike: am i being unclear
2016-05-28T07:52:44Z aeth: jackdaniel: what they have in common is that a lot of libraries don't work without supporting them
2016-05-28T07:53:10Z dmiles: ah ok right.. if that list is made of what i have to implement to use SBCL i suppose i am happy
2016-05-28T07:53:19Z beach: jackdaniel: My point is that if the host language is Common Lisp, you make things easier because it is easier to write in Common Lisp, and you can still have C as your target language.
2016-05-28T07:53:40Z aeth: beach: agreed
2016-05-28T07:54:31Z dmiles: Bike: so in this case you are right that SBCL's lisp could be filled as long as someone filled in the non lisp holes
2016-05-28T07:55:18Z dmiles: that is what i am "looking for" a lisp impl that would enerate exaclty what non lisp code i must write
2016-05-28T07:55:26Z ludston: beach: Do you do much work with non-lisp devs?
2016-05-28T07:55:28Z jackdaniel: beach: yes, I agree with that. I disagree with the hypothesis, that it's only a psychological problem though that people write in the host languages.
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2016-05-28T07:55:36Z dmiles: (in order to use their lisp code)
2016-05-28T07:55:36Z beach: ludston: None.
2016-05-28T07:55:44Z aeth: dmiles: I think that you're looking for SICL
2016-05-28T07:55:52Z beach: jackdaniel: I hope to convince you some day.
2016-05-28T07:56:00Z reepca eats popcorn
2016-05-28T07:56:04Z ludston: beach: I think your assumption, that writing in Common Lisp is easier, is not the case, for many people.
2016-05-28T07:56:36Z beach: ludston: Right.  In the BOCL README, "insufficient knowledge" is one explanation that I cite.
2016-05-28T07:56:51Z dmiles: aeth: ahah yes
2016-05-28T07:56:52Z reepca: it seems safe to say that it's likely to be easier for the kind of people who write Common Lisp implementations, no?
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2016-05-28T07:57:00Z aeth: jackdaniel: Even if it's just a psychological problem, it's a problem. The number of people highly proficient in two programming languages is lower than the number highly proficient in one.
2016-05-28T07:57:11Z aeth: Especially two very different languages.
2016-05-28T07:57:48Z ludston: beach: Yes. It is necessary to have more knowledge to write in Common Lisp, than say, C#. This is because C# has far fewer abstractions available
2016-05-28T07:57:53Z beach: reepca: Definitely part of my point.  If you are writing a Common Lisp implementation, presumably it is because you want to program in Common Lisp.  Then why inflict all this pain on yourself by writing the implementation in something else.
2016-05-28T07:58:33Z White_Flame: beach: I see SICL really helping there.  BOCL, not so much...
2016-05-28T07:58:57Z aeth: ludston: What a language lacks in abstractions, they usually make up for in boilerplate conventions.
2016-05-28T07:59:08Z jackdaniel: beach: you convinced me that in long term it may be profitable to write in pure CL, so it's an effort worthdoing. I just disagree that there is no merits in writing in host language (these may be only a short-term gains).
2016-05-28T07:59:09Z beach: White_Flame: Sure.  But again, BOCL is not designed to solve a REAL problem.  Only a PSYCHOLOGICAL problem.
2016-05-28T07:59:15Z White_Flame: ok
2016-05-28T07:59:21Z jackdaniel: Either way, I have some things to do :)
2016-05-28T07:59:26Z jackdaniel: have a nice Saturday o/
2016-05-28T07:59:32Z beach: jackdaniel: You mean "target language" right?
2016-05-28T07:59:45Z jackdaniel: beach: right
2016-05-28T07:59:50Z peey: Is there any text that introduces symbolic programming using common lisp (to someone who doesn't know anything about symbolic programming)?
2016-05-28T08:00:03Z Bike: minion: intro?
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2016-05-28T08:00:10Z minion: intro: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I?
2016-05-28T08:00:11Z Bike: hm, i forget abbreviations
2016-05-28T08:00:18Z White_Flame: minion: tell peey about intro
2016-05-28T08:00:18Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``intro''.
2016-05-28T08:00:23Z beach: minion: gentle
2016-05-28T08:00:23Z minion: gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2016-05-28T08:00:23Z aeth: peey: Some of the introductions are in Scheme, e.g. SICP
2016-05-28T08:00:30Z Bike: yeah, that one
2016-05-28T08:01:06Z White_Flame: peey: Pretty much all of the "introduction to Lisp" books & pages assume the reader doesn't know anything about symbolic programming :)
2016-05-28T08:01:34Z ludston: aeth: Yeha, but that boilerplate acts as a cradle that makes it easier to understand how something works if you've never seen it before.
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2016-05-28T08:02:13Z aeth: ludston: I disagree. e.g. s-expression macros are easier for someone to understand at a glance than all sorts of strange metaprogramming techniques that a lot of languages have
2016-05-28T08:02:48Z peey: Why is it called "Introduction to lisp"? It makes it sound like symbolic programming is an important part of learning lisp, but I have been introduced to lisp (by practical common lisp) without symbolic programming...
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2016-05-28T08:03:38Z ludston: aeth: When you say metaprogramming, are you referring to macros, or just weird magically ways that most languages implement AOP?
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2016-05-28T08:03:55Z devon: spacebat1: Earlier you said DDG allows people to improve it.  How?
2016-05-28T08:04:50Z devon: phoe_krk: You say DuckDuckGo allows people to improve it.  How?
2016-05-28T08:04:55Z peey: thanks minion, that was a helpful link
2016-05-28T08:04:58Z dmiles: hrrm with SICL, if my backend is written vbscript.. i wonder if i need to still make fasls
2016-05-28T08:05:16Z aeth: ludston: I mean things that are roughly equivalent to macros in other languages. It's probably too diverse for me to be specific enough
2016-05-28T08:05:58Z dmiles: (what i'd do is make simple .lisp files with all the symbols packages saved to the .fasl extenstion)
2016-05-28T08:06:02Z reepca: peey: as I understand it, a lot of cool stuff can be done in lisp with manipulating code, and this is only possible because code is represented as lists of symbol objects - hence, symbolic programming. And I think many would agree that manipulating code is an important part of the language.
2016-05-28T08:07:00Z devon: Anyone use a CL single stepper?
2016-05-28T08:07:07Z White_Flame: minion: say "You're welcome" to peey
2016-05-28T08:07:11Z minion: "You're welcome": An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/\"You're%20welcome\"?source" contains illegal character #\" at position 21..
2016-05-28T08:07:21Z Bike: rad.
2016-05-28T08:07:55Z beach: peey: These days, I use "symbolic programming" to mean "non-numeric programming".  The use of symbols in Lisp programming is much less important these days when we have CLOS.  I suggest you concentrate on CLOS-style object-oriented programming instead of on using symbols.
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2016-05-28T08:08:35Z White_Flame: (is that just a quit message, or actually K-lined?)
2016-05-28T08:08:38Z aeth: reepca: technically, you *can* do it different ways, e.g. regex
2016-05-28T08:08:53Z aeth: White_Flame: it's a K-line, quit messages are "Quit: Foo" iirc
2016-05-28T08:08:56Z dmiles: Sorry to be think but if my vbscript would implement only repl with several 100s of functions like car, symbol-function, symbol-value, make-package etc what system would stand upon this to make an entire CL with CLOSE?
2016-05-28T08:09:00Z dmiles: -E
2016-05-28T08:09:38Z dmiles: (SICL right?)
2016-05-28T08:09:43Z reepca: aeth: you mean like string manipulation instead of working with atomic symbols? I mean... technically, yeah, but it sounds ugly.
2016-05-28T08:09:54Z beach: dmiles: The SICL is not de
2016-05-28T08:09:55Z White_Flame: reepca: it's not just that you can manipulate code, it's that code is written in the natural data format
2016-05-28T08:09:57Z beach: er,
2016-05-28T08:09:58Z aeth: reepca: some language does this. I forget which. TCL?
2016-05-28T08:10:14Z Bike: many do string manipulation and they're all kinda ugly
2016-05-28T08:10:19Z beach: dmiles: The SICL modules are not designed to be added to a subset of Common Lisp.
2016-05-28T08:10:32Z White_Flame: yeah, TCL is something like a string concatenative langauge
2016-05-28T08:10:42Z aeth: You can also e.g. manipulate the AST while having a different actual syntax layer. Some languages do this. Lisp was *supposed* to do this.
2016-05-28T08:10:52Z aeth: poor M expressions. No one loved them.
2016-05-28T08:10:53Z dmiles: beach: ahah, i started to think that looking at its focus upon back end
2016-05-28T08:11:16Z White_Flame: aeth: Prolog is basically M expressions, so they did found a home :-P
2016-05-28T08:11:16Z beach: dmiles: As I have explained elsewhere, it is too painful to write modules assuming only a subset of Common Lisp, in particular a pre-CLOS Common Lisp.
2016-05-28T08:12:28Z ludston: aeth: Don't get me wrong. Well written lisp is easier to read and understand than well written C# or Java. But many novice programmers struggle to hold easy to understand abstractions in their heads like "the object passed into the using block will be disposed at that curly brace". Having many complex sugar-syntax things is too much trouble for many beginners I think.
2016-05-28T08:12:31Z reepca: ya know what would be interesting? A Forth-hosted Common Lisp. Hasn't forth been ported to like, everything?
2016-05-28T08:12:31Z beach: dmiles: I am working on bootstrapping a complete SICL system on a host Common Lisp system, so that the full language is available at compile time.  All the target code will be generated by the SICL compiler.
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2016-05-28T08:12:35Z aeth: beach: I like writing in CL without directly using CLOS. It's not that bad.
2016-05-28T08:13:01Z dmiles: dmiles: ABCL sort of did that .. started witha reasonable subset and then wrote lispbries in lisp to extend that to a full lisp.. but i just having to assume more have done that
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2016-05-28T08:13:09Z Bike: there are probably more machines with C implementations than with forth
2016-05-28T08:13:15Z White_Flame: reepca: it's not necessarily that forth _has_ been ported, but that it's so easy to port
2016-05-28T08:13:23Z White_Flame: and yeah, I've brought that up in the past as well
2016-05-28T08:13:24Z Bike: not because of anything wrong with forth, just because nobody's bothered
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2016-05-28T08:13:54Z dmiles: beach: ABCL sort of did that .. s(tarted witha reasonable subset) and then wrote lisp librbries in lisp to extend that to a full lisp.. but i am hoping there was at least one more option
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2016-05-28T08:14:06Z aeth: I think fancy use of the MOP could make CLOS usable for high-performance applications, e.g. https://github.com/guicho271828/inlined-generic-function/
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2016-05-28T08:14:23Z aeth: It's possible that I'll look into MOP internals if I get further into the game engine I'm writing.
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2016-05-28T08:14:54Z reepca adds "Art of the Meta-Object Protocol" to stack of books to read
2016-05-28T08:15:33Z dmiles: aha beach "so that the full language is available at compile time."  meaning its all lisp defined arround a potential subset?
2016-05-28T08:15:35Z Bike: it's a pretty cool book. really wish there had been more work done before implementations started having it though.
2016-05-28T08:16:15Z aeth: Bike: That seems to be the case with most things that get used. They're almost always used too early.
2016-05-28T08:16:17Z beach: dmiles: It means that SICL is entirely written using the full language, including CLOS.  There is no subset.
2016-05-28T08:16:32Z aeth: beach: Does that include optional extensions like MOP?
2016-05-28T08:16:42Z Bike: i mean, that's probably because PCL did it, and PCL was portable and good
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2016-05-28T08:18:17Z dmiles: beach: i might understand now
2016-05-28T08:18:19Z beach: dmiles: The SICL bootstrapping process starts by bootstrapping CLOS.  To do that, the MOP is needed, so I assume the existence of CLOSER-MOP in the bootstrapping process, but no standard module requires MOP functionality beyond what the Common Lisp HyperSpec already has.
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2016-05-28T08:19:34Z beach: dmiles: As a typical example (which confuses the hell out of many people) the SICL LOOP implementation uses not only CLOS, but also LOOP (at macro-expansion time).
2016-05-28T08:19:40Z dmiles: so the CCLOS is based ion a defined subset of what is CLOSER-MOP  ?
2016-05-28T08:20:04Z dmiles is obsessed with finding subsets
2016-05-28T08:20:11Z beach: There are no subsets.
2016-05-28T08:20:27Z beach: The SICL bootstrapping process assumes full CLOSER-MOP.
2016-05-28T08:20:43Z Bike: MOP is mostly written in terms of "here are some more functions and stuff, and also existing CLOS functions should work in this way now"
2016-05-28T08:20:51Z aeth: dmiles: I think you can build the iteration constructs on tagbody and go
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2016-05-28T08:21:00Z aeth: I'm not sure about all of the loop features, though
2016-05-28T08:21:03Z Bike: of course you can.
2016-05-28T08:21:39Z Bike: i mean, loop can establish blocks, so you need blocks, and you need variable binding and setting, and you need some math, and hash table iteration, and so on and so forth
2016-05-28T08:22:30Z aeth: well, you need let for do, too
2016-05-28T08:22:48Z beach: dmiles: The reason I don't want any subsets is that maintainability will suffer.  I see many maintainers of Common Lisp systems make mistakes all the time when they introduce some code that uses functionality that is "not yet available" during their bootstrapping process.
2016-05-28T08:23:47Z dmiles: in one version of lisp i did.. at http://pastebin.com/n5phGKbU  i used SubLisp as the subset
2016-05-28T08:24:28Z dmiles: the symbols starting with "c" can be written in vbscript
2016-05-28T08:24:37Z aeth: I wonder if it would be possible to write a script that enforces the subset... It would probably be too much work to be worth it
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2016-05-28T08:24:58Z Bike: (import () :cl) <-- okay
2016-05-28T08:25:24Z dmiles: yup have to "define" it ;P
2016-05-28T08:25:37Z Bike: i mean, in CL that's a nop.
2016-05-28T08:26:13Z dmiles: ah  techically it was  (import VBSCRIPT:NIL :CL)
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2016-05-28T08:26:47Z dmiles: (with a single quote in front of the symbol)
2016-05-28T08:27:53Z dmiles: oops i lie  it was closer to   (import  (find-symbol "NIL" :VBSCIPT) :CL)
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2016-05-28T08:30:41Z dmiles: but that file is at least an axample of trying to impl CL froma  subset
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2016-05-28T08:34:04Z dmiles: i would hope clos can work that way as well
2016-05-28T08:34:37Z beach: Why do you hope that?
2016-05-28T08:34:39Z Bike: the old actually-portable PCL required jumps and stuff that aren't even in standard CL, so...
2016-05-28T08:34:52Z Bike: portable as in "you can port it", of course
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2016-05-28T08:36:06Z dmiles: beach: then i could implment the bare interpreted object system required
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2016-05-28T08:36:41Z dmiles: (in  hulu script)
2016-05-28T08:37:38Z dmiles: (hulu script its a secret scripting language used to implmnetn complex object systems)
2016-05-28T08:38:11Z beach: dmiles: CLOS is very good for implementing complex object systems.
2016-05-28T08:38:11Z dmiles: (objects my be passed arround the cloud)
2016-05-28T08:38:35Z dmiles: (objects may be passed arround the cloud natively if you interpret the clos in hulu script)
2016-05-28T08:40:47Z dmiles: (i mean implement something like closer-mop in hulu script)
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2016-05-28T08:44:17Z beach: For a Common Lisp channel, there is a lot of interest here in #lisp in using basically any language other than Common Lisp.  I have yet to understand why.
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2016-05-28T08:45:44Z dmiles: i can only speak for myself, but it is that i want a lisp implmentation that runs in a special vm that no one has tired to implment yet
2016-05-28T08:45:56Z dmiles: (so i can start using lisp)
2016-05-28T08:46:14Z aeth: huh?
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2016-05-28T08:47:04Z beach observes that everything he has tried to convey about bootstrapping has been in vain.
2016-05-28T08:47:45Z dmiles: beach: my misunderstanding is that i assume bootstraping to get toa  special language level below the compiler
2016-05-28T08:48:23Z dmiles: i cant have a compiled language and if i did that bytecode would run slower than the interpreted version
2016-05-28T08:49:10Z dmiles: becasue the bytecoded version has to run in the interpretor that runs that code (emulates a machine)
2016-05-28T08:49:30Z peey: beach: Actually I wanted to toy with math equations and that kind of a thing, hence the interest in symbolic programming. What else is it used for that you were recommending against?
2016-05-28T08:50:37Z dmiles: if i bootstrap to lets say the abilty to make low level operations .. i dont see the advantage other than potenial to reuses a few variable alocations
2016-05-28T08:51:06Z reepca: to be fair to dmiles, I don't quite understand it either. So SICL uses an existing CL implementation to compile itself? Does it use the existing implementation's compiler to do that, then, or its own?
2016-05-28T08:51:24Z Bike: you use the existing implementation's compiler to compile SICL itself
2016-05-28T08:51:36Z Bike: which is why you can use the implementation's LOOP, and so on
2016-05-28T08:51:40Z beach: peey: Oh, I am just saying that using symbols to represent information is a bit deprecated these days.  Instead, you would more frequently use the object system.
2016-05-28T08:51:45Z aeth: Bike: okay, now I don't understand
2016-05-28T08:52:02Z Bike: no? i might be mistaken, it's 2 am
2016-05-28T08:52:20Z aeth: Bike: You basically just mean compile the compiler, right?
2016-05-28T08:52:52Z Bike: SICL's supposed to be made of modules. so you don't have to use SICL's compiler to use its loop, and such.
2016-05-28T08:53:08Z Bike: or at all. you can just use the loop.
2016-05-28T08:53:32Z dmiles: i am starting out with the premise that compiled code runs slower than interpreted code (i know this doesnt make sense in practicle experience) but lets say the time it takes to compile and run something will always be slower than simply interpreting it in my usecases
2016-05-28T08:54:20Z dmiles: (now i am also applying that same premise to the libraries of the system)
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2016-05-28T08:55:13Z peey: Interesting. I'll have to read more about what symbolic programming really is to understand how you could use it instead of the object system. Though I'll take care of your advice : )
2016-05-28T08:55:56Z dmiles: (i dont mind the libraries compiled..  but if they are i have to emulate whatever processor the lisp code is suposedly comiled to)
2016-05-28T08:55:56Z beach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolic_programming
2016-05-28T08:56:09Z aeth: Bike: Oh, so it's basically like writing this in a library: (defmacro loop*
2016-05-28T08:56:29Z aeth: and using loop as part of the code
2016-05-28T08:57:03Z peey: Oh. That's different from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolic_computation? Rather confusing
2016-05-28T08:57:23Z dmiles: (so i dont want ot have to implement a x686 just to run sbcl)
2016-05-28T08:57:29Z Bike: wait until you learn d ynamic programming.
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2016-05-28T08:58:21Z beach: Heh!
2016-05-28T08:58:33Z reepca: I'm just having trouble imagining how it gets used. What happens if a bytecode-interpreted implementation like clisp compiles it? Do you then need to run the implementation itself through another implementation?
2016-05-28T08:58:51Z Bike: reepca: are you still talking about sicl?
2016-05-28T08:58:55Z reepca: aye
2016-05-28T08:59:17Z peey: So I'm confused now. Is the literature about symbolic programming applicable to symbolic computation? e.g. dealing with mathematical expressions?
2016-05-28T09:00:23Z Bike: aeth: you can think of it that way, i guess. in beach's loop implementation the actual loop macro is defined at the end, so any compile time side effects (i.e. replacing cl:loop) are irrelevant
2016-05-28T09:00:34Z dmiles: from what i understand i think is sicl allows already established lisp system to target differnt back ends?
2016-05-28T09:00:54Z beach: reepca: SICL will be bootstrapped on any conforming implementation.  It will then create an executable file.  Part of obtaining the final system will be to recompile it on itself.
2016-05-28T09:01:15Z peey: What I want to do is be able to represent math expressions, e.g. "x + y - 2y" and then do operations on them, for example simplify it to "x - y".
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2016-05-28T09:01:25Z Bike: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Bootstrap-Common-Lisp/blob/master/integers.h am i being trolled, here
2016-05-28T09:02:03Z beach: No.
2016-05-28T09:02:17Z reepca: So it loads its own compiler into an existing implementation and uses that to compile itself?
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2016-05-28T09:02:30Z Bike: peey: I would call that "computer algebra". that and symbolic programming are historically related and it can be convenient to do the former in the latter
2016-05-28T09:02:32Z beach: Bike: I just committed preliminary code sitting on my computer.  Might not be the final version.
2016-05-28T09:02:35Z peey: I thought common lisp would be a good language for that kind of a thing, because I could represent everything as lists. Is there any literature that deals with symbolic computation using common lisp?
2016-05-28T09:02:59Z Bike: peey: the book "Paradigms in AI Programming" goes over symbolic integration and expression simplification in CL
2016-05-28T09:03:20Z beach: peey: You can use either Common Lisp symbols, or you can represent the expression as a tree using CLOS.
2016-05-28T09:03:27Z Bike: peey: in a historical context, though
2016-05-28T09:03:38Z reepca: peey: you might be interested in... I think it was called Maxima or something?
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2016-05-28T09:03:44Z Bike: the algorithms aren't lisp-specific in any meaningful way
2016-05-28T09:04:08Z peey: reepca: not exactly. Think of the mathematical expressions as a new programming language that you're implementing in lisp. so you define an equation object, expression object, variable object. And then a simplification method, evaluation method, etc...
2016-05-28T09:04:11Z Bike: maxima is a computer algebra system written in lisp, so it's relevant. the code is kind of messy, I think.
2016-05-28T09:04:18Z beach: reepca: That's correct.  Except that it first creates first-class global environments to isolate itself from the host.
2016-05-28T09:04:58Z peey: Computer algebra is a good term
2016-05-28T09:05:18Z beach: peey: Using lists is also a deprecated representation technique.
2016-05-28T09:05:28Z White_Flame: yeah, they're typically called CAS (Computer Algebra System)
2016-05-28T09:05:49Z peey: Aha. Found the relevant wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_algebra_system
2016-05-28T09:06:23Z White_Flame: lists are a great representation for a list of computational terms...
2016-05-28T09:06:35Z Bike: you should know that computer algebra is really hard. just, something to keep in mind. you can keep learning how to do it forever and any usable CAS is absolutely massive.
2016-05-28T09:07:25Z peey: I'd agree with white flame
2016-05-28T09:07:28Z beach: Lists are great for representing short sequences of a variable number of objects.
2016-05-28T09:07:28Z Bike: oh yeah, there's also this thing. https://www.cs.cornell.edu/rz/computer-algebra.html
2016-05-28T09:07:42Z dmiles: i guess i can proably explain my usecase.. I have a mud written in sublisp and it is closed source so i cant port it to CL.. but i like players in the mud to be able to use full common lisp to code their rooms and objects.. thus i must interpret their code
2016-05-28T09:08:13Z peey: I'm only academically interested in CAS. So it doesn't matter if it's hard, I don't have to use it in production software or anything like that
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2016-05-28T09:08:58Z White_Flame: The complexity of creating an AST object ontology for each expression construct, and managing parsing & printing in that representation, is not necessarily beneficial compared to simple list-based functionality, depending on your use case
2016-05-28T09:09:50Z White_Flame: for a powerful, complete CAS, then yeah you probably want to engineer the data structures heavily
2016-05-28T09:09:56Z dmiles: this mud is a special mud used at work and i can get my employer to replace it.. thus i am stuck having to implment CL in it myself..  I wish there was an easier way to get the users a real CL impl
2016-05-28T09:10:09Z dmiles: (I cant get my empoyer to replace it)
2016-05-28T09:10:10Z beach: reepca: You can't just "load the compiler" into a host system.  A Common Lisp compiler needs to access the environment in interesting ways, and if you are compiling a Common Lisp system, you run the risk of having conflicts with the host environment.
2016-05-28T09:10:16Z Bike: You use a mud at work?
2016-05-28T09:10:23Z dmiles: Bike: yes
2016-05-28T09:10:32Z White_Flame: "ball of mud", presumably
2016-05-28T09:10:42Z Bike: Like, a multi-user dungeon?
2016-05-28T09:10:47Z dmiles: I am a robotisist for robokindrobots.com
2016-05-28T09:10:51Z dmiles: yes
2016-05-28T09:11:01Z dmiles: (the mud is like an OS)
2016-05-28T09:11:02Z peey: Yes. You could focus your efforts on advancing functionality of CAS further if you elminiate the efforts in parsing and just use lisp forms to denote math.
2016-05-28T09:11:05Z White_Flame: oh, huh
2016-05-28T09:11:15Z Bike: sounds like that DooM sysadmin business.
2016-05-28T09:11:22Z dmiles: Bike: exactly :P
2016-05-28T09:11:45Z dmiles: except way more programmable and easy to design
2016-05-28T09:11:54Z Bike: peey: you might still want to parse lisp-like notation into objects to make implementation easier.
2016-05-28T09:12:01Z White_Flame: peey: the problem is that subtle bugs can put your lists in an inconsistent/unexpected state, and performance might be lower than an object-based one.  But there are certainly strong simplicity tradeoffs towards sticking with lists regardless
2016-05-28T09:12:18Z peey: Bike: yes, absolutely.
2016-05-28T09:12:40Z Bike: peey: anyway, depending on what you're doing, here's another link you might like, on a specific CAS module https://www.math.upenn.edu/~wilf/AeqB.html
2016-05-28T09:12:46Z Bike: nothing lisp specific
2016-05-28T09:12:56Z reepca: after a bit of googling I can't seem to find a clear definition / specification for sublisp
2016-05-28T09:13:05Z beach: peey: A standard trick is to define accessors for your objects that isolate client code from the representation.  Then you can change the representation later on.
2016-05-28T09:13:06Z Bike: it sounds proprietary
2016-05-28T09:13:09Z peey: No i'd definitely use objects for representing the behavior. i was talking about using lisp forms for input from user and not something like latex/mathjax
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2016-05-28T09:13:35Z reepca: eek
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2016-05-28T09:13:45Z Bike: indeed
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2016-05-28T09:14:55Z dmiles: but at least the mud already implments a subset of lisp.. sorry if i keep asking.. does anyone know of a project that implements a small set of intial functionality ina some particualr programming language (i dont care what that language is) the at least produces a relp that can load and interpret lisp code to eventualyl being a full system
2016-05-28T09:14:59Z peey: Maxima looks nice. It's also not a deserted project. Thanks for all the links and helps, folks! Really great resources to get started.
2016-05-28T09:15:10Z peey: help*
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2016-05-28T09:22:46Z dmiles: so far the closest i found was XCL
2016-05-28T09:23:10Z dmiles: (since XCL works when i disable the compiler)
2016-05-28T09:23:54Z dmiles: (i just have to supply the same amount of support in the repl as the c++ provides)
2016-05-28T09:23:55Z jackdaniel: beach: I have an idea about creating a mcclim video tutorial – I'll write a simple GUI for the metering system (I believe it should be failry trivial) as an extension to it
2016-05-28T09:24:23Z beach: That sounds like a very good idea.
2016-05-28T09:24:55Z White_Flame: dmiles: that sort of thing really isn't difficult to wrie
2016-05-28T09:25:04Z Bike quit (Quit: sleep)
2016-05-28T09:25:26Z jackdaniel: btw, these screenshots are awesome: http://imgur.com/a/e3r2j (gabriel_laddel linked them for me)
2016-05-28T09:25:48Z jackdaniel: I'm adding it to the revamped gallery section (now it will be called "get excited")
2016-05-28T09:26:07Z dmiles: (XCL is a minimal disfunctional lisp  intialyl.. once it starts interpreting its library it upgades into a useable non dysfunctional lisp by replacing things like its #'loop)
2016-05-28T09:26:12Z beach: jackdaniel: Wow, very nice!
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2016-05-28T09:27:58Z dmiles: White_Flame: i guess the difficulty i see is finding a standard set of libraries designed arround weak lisp subset.. that keeps going to support things in the future
2016-05-28T09:28:08Z White_Flame: jackdaniel: Why are there such stark differences in font rendering quality between some of the screens?
2016-05-28T09:28:46Z beach: White_Flame: I am guessing some of them use truetype and some of them don't.
2016-05-28T09:29:00Z White_Flame: dmiles: The thing with CL is that there is no singular "subset" to build everything off of.  You could subset it a ton of different ways and still develop up to the spec.  So I don't think you're going to find any standardization or organized projects around lisp subsets, but just musings
2016-05-28T09:29:01Z beach: White_Flame: We want to make truetype the default.
2016-05-28T09:29:02Z jackdaniel: White_Flame: mcclim by default uses x core rendering protocol, not the truetype
2016-05-28T09:29:09Z dmiles: White_Flame: are you saying the weak subset is easy to code? or coding the libraries arround the weak subset?
2016-05-28T09:29:23Z jackdaniel: and what beach said – it's already fixed on my tree, but I want to test if I didn't break anything
2016-05-28T09:29:25Z White_Flame: dmiles: I'm saying reading & interpreting s-expressions is pretty easy
2016-05-28T09:29:50Z jackdaniel: beach: I want to add back a freetype as an alternative though, so we'll have systems like clim-fonts/truetype clim-fonts/freetype and potentially others
2016-05-28T09:30:23Z beach: I don't see any advantage to the freetype library.
2016-05-28T09:30:44Z jackdaniel: I want to benchmark these, maybe we'll see the performance adventage (or not)
2016-05-28T09:31:13Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: WOW
2016-05-28T09:31:15Z jackdaniel: I'm still confused with the speed dropdown I've mentioned lately – I can't reproduce it though
2016-05-28T09:31:31Z jackdaniel: but it was like: truetype – awfully slow, xcore – all smooth
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2016-05-28T09:32:00Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: this deserves reddit. Where on the McCLIM webpage will it be?
2016-05-28T09:32:01Z beach: jackdaniel: I would rather spend time on making trutype faster if that should turn out to be necessary.
2016-05-28T09:33:00Z dmiles: White_Flame: Yeah that is all i find just musings an partial attempts like what i poasted (my version of doing it) and stuff like init500.lisp
2016-05-28T09:33:53Z jackdaniel: beach:  re-adding freetype will be trivial (it's just checking out the commit)
2016-05-28T09:33:55Z dmiles: i guess i want 1/2 way between init500.lisp and XCL
2016-05-28T09:34:17Z jackdaniel: phoe_krk: it will be navigation section
2016-05-28T09:34:37Z beach: jackdaniel: Remember the long-term goal; LispOS.  Part of that goal is to get rid of FFI code whenever practical.  So if truetype does the job, that is preferable.
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2016-05-28T09:35:29Z jackdaniel: yeah, I don't want to make freetype the default, just as something we can easily compare to
2016-05-28T09:35:59Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: I don't see it there just yet. Please poke me with the link when the gallery is ready; I don't want to post a bare imgur link on Reddit.
2016-05-28T09:36:14Z jackdaniel: phoe_krk: I'll put it on reddit by myself, no worries :)
2016-05-28T09:36:27Z jackdaniel: when the section is done of course
2016-05-28T09:36:32Z beach: jackdaniel: On thing you can do is to use something like the SBCL statistical profiler to run typical apps.  Then you will see whether truetype is a problem or not.
2016-05-28T09:36:34Z jackdaniel: now I'm scaling the images for miniatures
2016-05-28T09:37:22Z jackdaniel: beach: the problem is that I can't reproduce my problem either way. I *think* it might be something on my side, not the truetype or mcclim problem
2016-05-28T09:37:42Z beach: That's unfortunate, yeah. :(
2016-05-28T09:37:50Z beach: Let's not worry about it right now.
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2016-05-28T09:38:09Z jackdaniel: yeah
2016-05-28T09:38:22Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: okey!
2016-05-28T09:39:20Z dmiles: White_Flame: i appreciante that you understood what i wanted :P
2016-05-28T09:39:49Z dmiles: (i am not very good at explaining sometimes)
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2016-05-28T09:57:21Z beach: jackdaniel: I keep thinking that having you improve McCLIM was one of the best decisions I made lately.  I think the website is going to be fantastic (which, again, is something I hadn't even thought about), and the organization of the code will be vastly improved.
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2016-05-28T10:04:42Z jackdaniel: beach: I'm glad you think that :)  didn't know McCLIM is such cool thing to hack on
2016-05-28T10:05:07Z beach: That was part of my plan; to make you realize that. :)
2016-05-28T10:06:27Z beach: Or, rather, I was hoping for that result.
2016-05-28T10:06:49Z beach: *crap* another Bordeaux thunder storm.
2016-05-28T10:07:07Z jackdaniel: (bt:destroy-thread *thunder-storm*)
2016-05-28T10:07:18Z phoe_krk: XD
2016-05-28T10:07:28Z beach: Thunder storms in Sai Gon are pale compared to the ones we get here.
2016-05-28T10:08:31Z jackdaniel: beach: I have a question – extensions should be called mcclim-something or clim-something ?
2016-05-28T10:08:47Z beach: Hmm, good question.
2016-05-28T10:08:54Z beach: mcclim I guess.
2016-05-28T10:09:00Z beach: Since they would be McCLIM specific.
2016-05-28T10:09:10Z jackdaniel: yeah, I think the same – I'll have to rename dozen of packages
2016-05-28T10:09:20Z beach: Sure.
2016-05-28T10:09:31Z beach: The naming is currently chaotic.
2016-05-28T10:09:36Z jackdaniel: backends also are mcclim specific, right?
2016-05-28T10:09:43Z beach: Definitely.
2016-05-28T10:09:44Z jackdaniel: yeah, hence the question
2016-05-28T10:09:46Z jackdaniel: OK
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2016-05-28T10:12:09Z reepca: So correct me if I'm wrong - I only just read a bit about CLIM and stuff - but would it be fair to say that the goals are similar to projects like qt and gtk, but for common lisp? Or am I misunderstanding what I've read so far?
2016-05-28T10:13:48Z jackdaniel: reepca: CLIM is an interface manager, not necessarily a  graphical one. It may be used to implement GUI stuff like with qt or gtk, but it's beefier (not in sense of qt extensions, but rather the abstraction between the application and presentation)
2016-05-28T10:14:12Z jackdaniel: that said, I don't know the spec well yet and I'm an ignorant :p
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2016-05-28T10:15:44Z beach: reepca: CLIM is so much more than traditional GUI libraries.  It is based on the concept of presentation types which can make the application so much more modular than a traditional application.
2016-05-28T10:16:35Z White_Flame: reepca: I'll probably get executed for this, but I think the closest relative to CLIM would be dynamic HTML.  You output stuff to the screen, and it retains its identity and is interactive.
2016-05-28T10:16:39Z beach: With presentation types, the user can interact with the objects of the application in ways that were not foreseen by the application programmer.
2016-05-28T10:18:10Z jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/316960 <- image laziness example, now I have a small versions with names in cl :)
2016-05-28T10:18:15Z beach: reepca: If the user issues a command that takes an argument of a particular presentation type, then any visible object becomes active (clickable) and can be used to satisfy the request to satisfy the argument of the command.
2016-05-28T10:18:40Z beach: any visible object of that particular presentation type, I mean.
2016-05-28T10:19:39Z beach: jackdaniel: Nice.
2016-05-28T10:19:48Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2016-05-28T10:20:40Z gabriel_laddel: reepca: Similar in the sense that it is a "GUI library". The similarities end there.
2016-05-28T10:21:32Z jackdaniel: gabriel_laddel: regarding the screenshots – should I ask Andy Hefner about the permission to use them or something? same with the rest
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2016-05-28T10:22:06Z gabriel_laddel: jackdaniel: I already asked him. It is OK.
2016-05-28T10:22:08Z beach: gabriel_laddel: What is the name of the module that does the animation of that output-record-stealing character?
2016-05-28T10:22:20Z gabriel_laddel: as for the rest, they are mine and you have my permission
2016-05-28T10:22:22Z beach: I think it is so funny.
2016-05-28T10:22:27Z jackdaniel: gabriel_laddel: thanks. These are great pictures :)
2016-05-28T10:22:49Z gabriel_laddel: beach: idk what you're referring to?
2016-05-28T10:23:01Z beach: Hmm.
2016-05-28T10:23:15Z gabriel_laddel: beach: the character who walks around the screen?
2016-05-28T10:23:18Z beach: Yes.
2016-05-28T10:23:24Z beach: It steals output records. :)
2016-05-28T10:23:36Z jackdaniel: gabriel_laddel: and what about this http://imgur.com/a/Sw9ix ? who wrote the descriptions? can I include them too?
2016-05-28T10:24:22Z gabriel_laddel: beach: Guybrush.xpm
2016-05-28T10:24:44Z beach: OK that's the character, but there is a program that I think hefner wrote.
2016-05-28T10:24:51Z beach: And I can't find it.
2016-05-28T10:25:12Z jackdaniel: ah, masamune is yours :)
2016-05-28T10:25:44Z gabriel_laddel: jackdaniel: I wouldn't include the Masamune descriptions, except the HTOP readout.
2016-05-28T10:26:46Z jackdaniel: htop readout?
2016-05-28T10:26:52Z gabriel_laddel: beach: it is clim-animated-ass.lisp on his website
2016-05-28T10:27:11Z beach: That's not the name I remember, but OK.  Thanks!
2016-05-28T10:27:12Z jackdaniel: OK, just the pictures
2016-05-28T10:27:58Z gabriel_laddel: jackdaniel: http://imgur.com/o0bZJua << htop readout
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2016-05-28T10:28:54Z gabriel_laddel: White_Flame: lol. dynamic HTML isn't even close to the notion of a presentation.
2016-05-28T10:29:01Z White_Flame: certainly it's not
2016-05-28T10:29:33Z reepca pushes several pieces of software to try out and programming things to read about onto todo-stack
2016-05-28T10:29:44Z reepca: man, it'll be forever till I finally get back down to the breakfast frame
2016-05-28T10:29:45Z White_Flame: but it's commonly used as a fully dynamic substrate, as opposed to more usually statically configured UIs
2016-05-28T10:29:49Z reepca: LIFO planning sucks
2016-05-28T10:29:59Z beach: gabriel_laddel: Yes, animated-assistance.  Thanks again.
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2016-05-28T10:30:12Z random-nick: reepca: use a queue
2016-05-28T10:30:33Z White_Flame: reepca: use a blackboard task model
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2016-05-28T10:32:47Z reepca: one more question - can I get an openGL context using CLIM?
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2016-05-28T10:34:11Z jackdaniel: reepca: not at this point of time I'm afraid
2016-05-28T10:34:11Z beach: reepca: You should ask moore33 about taht.
2016-05-28T10:34:13Z beach: that
2016-05-28T10:35:18Z reepca: But it's something that conceptually could happen with enough smarter-than-me reepcas?
2016-05-28T10:35:42Z beach: It has been done.
2016-05-28T10:36:00Z jackdaniel: reepca: it is what can be implemented. I'm just not sure if current backend supports it. McCLIM had OpenGL backend, but it bitrotten beyond the maintainance
2016-05-28T10:36:22Z jackdaniel: it is something what °
2016-05-28T10:36:32Z DeadTrickster: why just not use qt or gtk binding and write real apps already? )
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2016-05-28T10:37:29Z jackdaniel: well, that's one of the ways to proceed, writing real apps with mcclim seems to be more fun though ,)
2016-05-28T10:37:46Z reepca: Because I'm sure I'll be forced to use them eventually - may as well use the time I have now on something I think is neat
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2016-05-28T10:39:27Z DeadTrickster: jackdaniel, well if no one using McCLIM seriously now then I'm afraid your design might be unfortunately detached from reality.
2016-05-28T10:39:46Z DeadTrickster: So I would plan and start something big enough to cover all concepts first
2016-05-28T10:40:00Z beach: reepca: Several of us are working on creating a complete native GUI framework for Common Lisp.  There are several things you can do: 1. Don't believe it will ever happen and do what DeadTrickster suggests, 2. Believe that it might happen and wait until it does.  3.  Help us.
2016-05-28T10:40:12Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: from my experiene naysayers never helped, just the opposite
2016-05-28T10:40:27Z jackdaniel: experience°
2016-05-28T10:41:01Z DeadTrickster: I'm not trying to spread negative attitude here. You've got it wrong
2016-05-28T10:41:04Z jackdaniel: ie "free operating system like Linux is just a toy, it will never be taken seriously", there was a lot of that at some point of time
2016-05-28T10:41:11Z jackdaniel: apparently I did :)
2016-05-28T10:41:21Z White_Flame: DeadTrickster: It's not a new design.  It's a reimplementation of the graphical Lisp machines, which were mature and used commercially
2016-05-28T10:41:38Z phoe_krk: and were awesome tools for the programmers.
2016-05-28T10:41:41Z phoe_krk afk
2016-05-28T10:41:54Z DeadTrickster: it
2016-05-28T10:41:57Z DeadTrickster: it's all fine
2016-05-28T10:42:25Z DeadTrickster: but if you don't havefeedback from real project it can go wrong
2016-05-28T10:43:02Z White_Flame: it did have feedback from real projects; these new implementations aren't forging new design matters, just resurrecting the ones that were sussed out well, then abandoned with the rest of the AI winter
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2016-05-28T10:43:41Z DeadTrickster: how many years ago?
2016-05-28T10:43:48Z White_Flame: 1980s
2016-05-28T10:43:51Z DeadTrickster: lol
2016-05-28T10:44:02Z DeadTrickster: I'm sure something has changed during these years
2016-05-28T10:44:22Z DeadTrickster: ie - design concepts, realtime, connected stuff etc
2016-05-28T10:44:24Z White_Flame: but CL is practically from that era as well ;)
2016-05-28T10:44:39Z White_Flame: it was a different take on those things, and one worth recovering
2016-05-28T10:44:39Z DeadTrickster: but we are talking about UI stuff not CL
2016-05-28T10:45:06Z White_Flame: nothing has changed in mainstream UI since then, except for visual style
2016-05-28T10:45:11Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: what is your point? that people should stop working on mcclim? or maybe, that they should, what?
2016-05-28T10:45:29Z DeadTrickster: as I said some one should came up with 'real' project.
2016-05-28T10:45:40Z DeadTrickster: ui-heavy
2016-05-28T10:45:50Z jackdaniel: how could you develop real project for mcclim, if mcclim isn't in a good shape?
2016-05-28T10:46:15Z DeadTrickster: that's the point - while writing real stuff you set goals for mcclim
2016-05-28T10:46:44Z jackdaniel: there are some well defined goals – implementic the specification, getting rid of bugs and making it portable across systems
2016-05-28T10:47:03Z jackdaniel: implementing° (it's mostly done, just a few rough edges)
2016-05-28T10:47:14Z White_Flame: and the spec is the product of writing real stuff
2016-05-28T10:47:25Z DeadTrickster: ok let me ask this question: what the selling point?
2016-05-28T10:47:37Z DeadTrickster: why would one choose mcclim over gtk bindings
2016-05-28T10:47:41Z White_Flame: far greater interactivity than the typical mainstream UI metaphors
2016-05-28T10:47:51Z White_Flame: especially for developers
2016-05-28T10:47:58Z White_Flame: and power users
2016-05-28T10:48:00Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: I believe I'm wasting my time explaining it, because you have already an opinion, which won't change
2016-05-28T10:48:07Z jackdaniel: so what's the point? that's what I call "nay saying"
2016-05-28T10:48:24Z DeadTrickster: I don't have opinion here
2016-05-28T10:48:31Z jackdaniel: you clearly do
2016-05-28T10:48:32Z beach: Those things can't be understood by someone who thinks CLIM offers the same functionality as traditional GUI toolkits.
2016-05-28T10:48:39Z DeadTrickster: White_Flame, can you show me the example?
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2016-05-28T10:49:03Z White_Flame: yeah, but you'd have to read a few hundred pages of Genera docs to get a sense for it :-P
2016-05-28T10:49:16Z DeadTrickster: that clear demonstrates this like here is gtk/qt code and here is how it's done on mcclim
2016-05-28T10:49:45Z White_Flame: none of that stuff has been in an executable fashion for decades.  I can't easily point you to a youtube video or whatever
2016-05-28T10:49:51Z beach: DeadTrickster: Your argumentation sounds IDENTICAL to something a person would use to justify not using Common Lisp over (say) Java.
2016-05-28T10:50:14Z DeadTrickster: if you guys are doing this for pleasure that's totally fine and cool. but if you want user to use it you have to have well defined selling points
2016-05-28T10:50:37Z beach: DeadTrickster: As far as I am concerned, you should stick to Qt and GTK.
2016-05-28T10:50:38Z White_Flame: the descriptions of presentation types above were certainly unique selling points
2016-05-28T10:50:56Z DeadTrickster: beach, and you know what? that's totally fine. language is a tool. you should be able to see what you can do with it
2016-05-28T10:51:01Z White_Flame: but they're quite different than the common metaphor, so you'll just have to wait until you can actually use it to see
2016-05-28T10:51:29Z White_Flame: or go read the lisp machine docs that have been archived and see what they can do
2016-05-28T10:52:00Z beach: DeadTrickster: I am pretty happy that me, gabriel_laddel, jackdaniel, White_Flame and a few others can already see what to do with it.
2016-05-28T10:53:58Z beach: I have long ago abandoned the idea of trying to convince people to use something they don't want to use, even though I am totally convinced that it is a better solution.  It just isn't worth the frustration.
2016-05-28T10:55:40Z DeadTrickster: beach, I wasn't asking for convincing. What I asked is 1)why is it better 2)how you rewriting it without real modern feedback. 1)answered with hundred pages of Genera docs and 2) wasn't answered at all
2016-05-28T10:56:34Z beach: And I no longer take the bait that I need to have selling points, because that assumes that I care about other people using it.  I don't.  Unless they want to of course.
2016-05-28T10:57:10Z DeadTrickster: finally :-)
2016-05-28T10:57:48Z beach: From experience, I know that even if I am able to answer every question that is asked of me, others won't accept my answers anyway, so it is wasted energy.
2016-05-28T10:58:07Z White_Flame: from my side, it'd be nice if people got something really out of the box, but it's hard to describe the differences if you have to describe how it works all the way up from square one.  It's better if somebody can interact with it or watch it in action, as opposed to try to lecture on it
2016-05-28T10:58:12Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: I don't appreciate your trolling, honestly
2016-05-28T10:59:29Z DeadTrickster: jackdaniel, once again, wrong assumptions. Why bother with website or reddit if you doing this for own pleasure?
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2016-05-28T11:00:06Z jackdaniel: I'm doing it for various reasons, ie to provide a nice tool for the developers
2016-05-28T11:00:11Z DeadTrickster: White_Flame, totally agree,
2016-05-28T11:00:19Z DeadTrickster: I was hoping for clear core concepts
2016-05-28T11:00:22Z DeadTrickster: though
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2016-05-28T11:00:26Z jackdaniel: and what I said isn't an assumption, but an observation
2016-05-28T11:00:30Z White_Flame: you got clear core concepts
2016-05-28T11:00:33Z jackdaniel: it's a difference
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2016-05-28T11:00:43Z White_Flame: including being able to reference object identity back from screen presentation
2016-05-28T11:00:59Z White_Flame: there's also output record playback, and lots of weird stuff
2016-05-28T11:01:02Z beach: White_Flame: That's precisely what I meant by it not being enough to answer all questions.
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2016-05-28T11:01:29Z White_Flame: yep, it turns into a lecture from square 1, because it's different enough.  "Just give me the elevator pitch" doesn't work if you have no connection to the concepts
2016-05-28T11:01:40Z DeadTrickster: jackdaniel, so you want to provide a nice tool for developers. then you want feedback isn't it? If yes you guys need real project
2016-05-28T11:02:02Z White_Flame: DeadTrickster: and that's where you're continually wrong
2016-05-28T11:02:11Z DeadTrickster: why?
2016-05-28T11:02:24Z DeadTrickster: let me guess - because you have 80s docs?
2016-05-28T11:02:25Z White_Flame: because that cycle has already happened, and resulted in a specification
2016-05-28T11:02:53Z White_Flame: tell me, what is different in UI technology between the 80s and now?
2016-05-28T11:03:09Z White_Flame: the fundamental interactions are precisely the same
2016-05-28T11:03:12Z reepca hurts tooth on popcorn kernel. Running out already??
2016-05-28T11:03:28Z DeadTrickster: yeah, like touch screens - all the way back to 50
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2016-05-28T11:03:57Z DeadTrickster: any way thank you for your time guys. I wasn't trolling. sorry if it looked alike
2016-05-28T11:03:59Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: I've already answered that – you need a solid implementation to build a serious project on top of it. So you are essentialy saying: "You need a serious project to make McCLIM solid. I discourage using McCLIM for serious projects because it's not solid. Use QT or GTk." – it's simple trolling without any merit.
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2016-05-28T11:04:30Z DeadTrickster: jackdaniel, oh where I discouraged it?
2016-05-28T11:04:45Z DeadTrickster: god I just asked why prefer one to another
2016-05-28T11:04:47Z jackdaniel: 12:42 < DeadTrickster> jackdaniel, well if no one using McCLIM seriously now then I'm afraid your design might be unfortunately detached from
2016-05-28T11:04:50Z jackdaniel:                        reality.
2016-05-28T11:05:00Z jackdaniel: 12:39 < DeadTrickster> why just not use qt or gtk binding and write real apps already? )
2016-05-28T11:05:06Z DeadTrickster: yep why?
2016-05-28T11:05:11Z jackdaniel: I think  could find some more
2016-05-28T11:05:15Z reepca: perhaps a socratic question was confused with a suggestive one...
2016-05-28T11:05:26Z White_Flame: we answered, and you say "why?" again.  You're kind of done asking that, because you're not getting the answers, frankly
2016-05-28T11:05:43Z White_Flame: "not getting" as a receiver verb, not a sender verb
2016-05-28T11:05:50Z beach: Like I said...
2016-05-28T11:05:55Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: I'm done with feeding you
2016-05-28T11:05:57Z beach: "everything is never enough"
2016-05-28T11:06:01Z jackdaniel: heh
2016-05-28T11:07:15Z DeadTrickster: so by asking why should one choose mcclim I discourage using it. got ya
2016-05-28T11:10:04Z beach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzXZQKTZL-4 ("never enough" live by Dream Theater)
2016-05-28T11:10:05Z beach: :)
2016-05-28T11:11:15Z White_Flame: DT \m/
2016-05-28T11:12:52Z beach: Ah, is that the sign of the horns?
2016-05-28T11:22:13Z White_Flame: a misnomer calling it that, but yeah
2016-05-28T11:22:45Z beach: I thought I recognized it. :)
2016-05-28T11:22:48Z White_Flame: it actually started off as a (catholic?) ward against "the evil eye", not anything "satanic" or whatever
2016-05-28T11:23:25Z beach: I didn't know what to call it, so I looked at the Wikipedia. :P
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2016-05-28T11:35:21Z gabriel_laddel: peey: look into maxima.sourceforage.net Maxima is written in CL and does everything you want..
2016-05-28T11:36:45Z White_Flame: source forage? ;)
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2016-05-28T11:42:40Z _z: White_Flame: I was reading backlog (awesome discussion as usual) when you said something about reading lisp machine docs, any central source for that and what I should start reading first?
2016-05-28T11:43:15Z White_Flame: I read through all the docs I could find, gleaning notes for my ideas & projects
2016-05-28T11:43:21Z p_l: _z: grab a copy of Genera 8.3 and OpenGenera 2.0, rip documentation and sources
2016-05-28T11:43:43Z White_Flame: I found PDF manual scans somewhere, looking
2016-05-28T11:44:32Z _z: will do, thanks p_l and White_Flame
2016-05-28T11:46:06Z p_l: I don't remember where I grabbed Genera 8.3, OpenGenera 2.0 install CD floats on pirate bay with a comment from David Schmidt, iirc
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2016-05-28T11:46:57Z p_l: https://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3769989/Symbolics_Open_Genera_2.0_for_Alpha_-_complete_package_with_Lisp/ <--- will work enough to start reading the docs
2016-05-28T11:47:56Z White_Flame: http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/symbolics/genera/
2016-05-28T11:48:05Z White_Flame: also more stuff if you go up directories
2016-05-28T11:48:18Z _z: some good stuff it seems on http://lispm.de
2016-05-28T11:48:33Z gabriel_laddel: DeadTrickster: read loper-os.org in full, and you'll begin to understand why CLIM.
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2016-05-28T11:48:54Z White_Flame bookmarks the textfiles.com link this time :-P
2016-05-28T11:50:14Z White_Flame: instructions for actually running genera: http://www.loomcom.com/genera/genera-install.html
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2016-05-28T12:00:15Z DeadTrickster: gabriel_laddel, thx
2016-05-28T12:00:20Z White_Flame: wow, that genera torrent has been around sine 2007.  I though it was only more recently that it became available, but that's probably the emulator portion
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2016-05-28T12:23:48Z p_l: White_Flame: snap4 VLM I've been using is from at most 2009...
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2016-05-28T12:36:49Z Cymew: p_l: Have you managed to get the linux vlm to work?
2016-05-28T12:37:50Z p_l: Cymew: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9540080/screenshots/genera-arisu.png
2016-05-28T12:38:27Z p_l: it's more stable than OSX
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2016-05-28T12:39:57Z p_l: (my OSX VM doesn't boot properly anymore after being left alone for some time...)
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2016-05-28T12:46:18Z Cymew: p_l: So it identifies as a DEC Alpha system even though it's running on Linux?
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2016-05-28T12:46:50Z p_l: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9540080/screenshots/yui/2016-02-25_09%3A58_1366x768.png
2016-05-28T12:47:06Z p_l: Cymew: yes, the type is hardcoded deep somewhere I don't recall right now
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2016-05-28T12:47:34Z p_l: and snap4/snap5 are generally direct ports of VLM2 without much in terms of "making it full blown port"
2016-05-28T12:47:48Z Cymew: snap5 I have never seen
2016-05-28T12:48:30Z Cymew: Did you have to do something with X? I've never gotten it to start, and last time I tried I figured out it was something do to with X.
2016-05-28T12:49:05Z p_l: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9540080/screenshots/yui/2015-06-03_22%3A39_1366x768.png <--- twm on X.Org 6.8 was necessary
2016-05-28T12:49:43Z p_l: there's apparently a way to patch one function so it doesn't crash on more "modern" (read: broken) X11 when doing Save World, but I don't use it
2016-05-28T12:49:59Z p_l: snap4/snap5 themselves unless recompiled from scratch will have issues with libs
2016-05-28T12:50:43Z Cymew: Hmm. 8.6 you say. I wonder what version I'm using really.
2016-05-28T12:50:49Z p_l: also, there's a very, very ugly hack in LifeSupport for X11 displays, which afaik is shared issue between OSF/1, SunOS, Linux and possibly the OSX port
2016-05-28T12:51:16Z p_l: it somewhat works, but should be excised, then you could have LifeSupport that doesn't link to X11
2016-05-28T12:51:52Z Cymew: LifeSupport? What is that?
2016-05-28T12:53:06Z Cymew: xorg-x11-server-common-1.16.3-2.fc21.x86_64 seems to be what I have installed. How does that relate to X.org 6.8?
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2016-05-28T12:54:18Z p_l: LifeSupport is the written-in-C support program for "hosted" Lisp Machines - it's used in UX-series (SunOS host, LispM hardware on VME board), MacIvory, and inside VLM2
2016-05-28T12:54:36Z p_l: Cymew: that will be... something like 20 major versions too new
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2016-05-28T12:56:23Z p_l: 6.8 is from 2005
2016-05-28T12:56:33Z p_l: 6.9 *might* work, never checked
2016-05-28T12:56:39Z p_l: after 7.0 things break
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2016-05-28T12:59:06Z p_l: so I use an old Ubuntu (8.04 or so?) to run it
2016-05-28T13:00:15Z Cymew: Weird that a new one is called 1.16.3 and the old one is 6.8 but X is weird...
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2016-05-28T13:00:37Z Cymew: I tried a few old releases and it still didn't work.
2016-05-28T13:00:53Z Cymew: I wonder if I tried ubuntu 8.04
2016-05-28T13:01:09Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/excite.html
2016-05-28T13:01:23Z jackdaniel: :)
2016-05-28T13:01:39Z Cymew: p_l: If you have the details os working versions, and even a writeup of the steps to get it working, that would be really sweet.
2016-05-28T13:02:06Z p_l: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9540080/screenshots/yui/2014-01-03_05%3A06_1366x768.png <--- wooo, found a screenshot of the short-lived image I built with every software package I could cram in
2016-05-28T13:02:22Z Cymew: jackdaniel: Nice!
2016-05-28T13:02:22Z White_Flame: jackdaniel: the Gsharp image 404s
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2016-05-28T13:02:37Z jackdaniel: White_Flame: thanks
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2016-05-28T13:03:31Z p_l: jackdaniel: what's the third screenshot?
2016-05-28T13:03:42Z jackdaniel: fixed
2016-05-28T13:04:11Z jackdaniel: p_l: it's a listener. It's one of the screenshots provided by gabriel_laddel and vintage design
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2016-05-28T13:04:18Z jackdaniel: vintage-digital °
2016-05-28T13:04:40Z jackdaniel: Cymew: thanks :)
2016-05-28T13:04:46Z p_l: Ahh, so I guess we won't get what program generated it :)
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2016-05-28T13:05:11Z jackdaniel: indeed ;)
2016-05-28T13:05:19Z jackdaniel: you ought to get excited and implement it by yourself :D
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2016-05-28T13:06:53Z jackdaniel: there will be at some point of the future another navigation link: get involved
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2016-05-28T13:07:47Z jackdaniel: s/of the future/in the future/
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2016-05-28T13:18:28Z beach: jackdaniel: Great job on the website.
2016-05-28T13:19:24Z jackdaniel: thanks :) there are scripts in the sources of how to convert things automatically: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/mcclim/mcclim-website/blob/master/pages/excite.page
2016-05-28T13:19:32Z jackdaniel: with help of imagemagick
2016-05-28T13:19:58Z beach: OK.
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2016-05-28T13:27:01Z jackdaniel: beach: I forgot about TransClime, it's fixed now
2016-05-28T13:27:05Z jackdaniel: (3rd cap)
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2016-05-28T14:20:13Z beach: jackdaniel: Well, it's kind of pale compared to the others. :)
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2016-05-28T14:21:53Z beach: jackdaniel: What I mean is that those provided by gabriel_laddel are much flashier.
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2016-05-28T17:12:21Z papachan: (make-list 5 :initial-element 1 :count 1) dont exists?
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2016-05-28T17:15:02Z beach: What would it do?
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2016-05-28T17:15:38Z papachan: to generate a list with an increment value
2016-05-28T17:16:24Z edgar-rft: papachan: you want alexandria:iota
2016-05-28T17:17:41Z beach: That or (loop for i from 1 to 5 collect i)
2016-05-28T17:18:02Z beach: Notice how it is shorter than what you were hoping for.
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2016-05-28T17:18:51Z papachan: ah nice
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2016-05-28T17:20:29Z p_l: Cymew: Just checked, I apparently used Ubuntu 6.06
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2016-05-28T19:11:24Z Cymew: p_l: Thanks a lot, mych appreciated. That gives me something to base a new attempt on. M
2016-05-28T19:14:23Z p_l: Cymew: I also use Xvnc to access it, and twm as window manager (though generally any reparenting one should work, people used ratpoison in the past)
2016-05-28T19:19:44Z Cymew: You think the window manager should matter?
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2016-05-28T19:21:20Z Cymew: I guess replicating your working setup is interesting information regardless.
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2016-05-28T19:28:30Z p_l: Cymew: window manager does matter, because Genera X11 client doesn't like being forcibly resized
2016-05-28T19:30:25Z p_l: TWM, being of similar wintage and behaviour, works
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2016-05-28T20:05:39Z p_l: Cymew: among other things that are of issue - you need non-shadow NIS classic setup
2016-05-28T20:06:38Z flip214: is there a function that does a lookup like CASE (resp. ECASE)?
2016-05-28T20:06:51Z p_l: however, hacking LifeSupport in VLM opens some interesting options, like adding SCSI devices to OpenGenera, or even booting from real LMFS filesystem (requires somehow strapping 8.3 source to OG2.0, because OG2.0 lacks filesystem drivers)
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2016-05-28T20:58:02Z Cymew: p_l: NIS I think I have seen noted somewhere.
2016-05-28T20:58:57Z Cymew: p_l: Have you collected your experiences with Genera? You seems to have done quite a lot of work with this, and found some interesting dark corners I have not heard explored before.
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2016-05-28T21:08:59Z p_l: Cymew: some of the stuff I'm describing has not necessarily been documented earlier because of how most people who dealt with it either didn't hit the bugs or were closer, in time, to working versions of software
2016-05-28T21:09:06Z p_l: I'll need to write down some of that, though
2016-05-28T21:13:25Z akkad: #bolix is the genera place now
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