2016-02-24T00:00:05Z p_l: jasom: the assembly code suggest it was used in the graphic pipeline
2016-02-24T00:00:15Z jasom: p_l: I stand corrected
2016-02-24T00:00:23Z kchndr: substitute characters, guns, actions for drivers.
2016-02-24T00:00:41Z p_l: kchndr: and really, on PS1/PS2, programming the graphic pipeline screams for a tool to generate code, and Lisp would fit nicely
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2016-02-24T00:01:06Z kchndr: wait... lisp can hot plug assembly code?
2016-02-24T00:01:18Z p_l: kchndr: any language can if done right :)
2016-02-24T00:01:39Z p_l: (Visual Studio does it for C/C++/.NET for three releases as part of its debug tools)
2016-02-24T00:02:06Z kchndr: my question is, why hasn't this concept beeing adopted by OS designers compilers?? gcc re-compiling is a real pita
2016-02-24T00:03:47Z p_l: kchndr: GCC is a PITA in general because RMS (tl;dr - politics). Many OS kernels don't make for nice runtime manipulation for pretty good reasons, too. Also, current hw makes the restart to be a really seriously important first step in debugging stuff, because it's hard to assure what state the hw is
2016-02-24T00:04:19Z p_l: but linux at least now supports hot patching of kernel, Windows NT has (occassionally) used its own hotpatching features in updates, etc.
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2016-02-24T00:12:52Z jasom: From an article I found: "Practically all of the run-time code (approximately half a million lines of source code) was written in GOAL (Game Object Assembly Lisp), Naughty Dog's own internally developed language, which was based on the Lisp programming language. Before you dismiss us as crazy, consider the many advantages of having a custom compiler."
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2016-02-24T00:13:05Z jasom: also the entire compiler was written by one person in a little over a year
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2016-02-24T00:26:42Z warweasle: jasom: I was just watching a youtube about how they used the constraints of the PS2 in order to make the game. They used GOAL to help do that and push the hardware to new limits.
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2016-02-24T00:31:49Z pillton: They pushed the hardware to new limits?
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2016-02-24T00:32:43Z warweasle: pillton: Oh, it was the original PS.
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2016-02-24T00:33:33Z p_l: pillton: on the original PSX, they were one of the launch titles, and were often accused by other studios of having been provided with "secret tools etc" by Sony
2016-02-24T00:34:06Z p_l: in reality they put Sony in a "done deal" position with their breaking of Sony's rules on use of official SDK
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2016-02-24T00:34:32Z warweasle: pillton: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Xa7qM1o18c
2016-02-24T00:35:15Z warweasle: p_l: That's interesting. They didn't use the official SDK? What did they use?
2016-02-24T00:35:17Z p_l: pillton: they used low-level hardware modes and sometimes innovative approach to using the hw
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2016-02-24T00:35:34Z p_l: warweasle: they ignored official libs
2016-02-24T00:35:59Z p_l: also, their rendering approach *and* assets were optimized for certain specifics of PSX hardware
2016-02-24T00:36:33Z p_l: this let them make detailed models which people couldn't get how they made them... when in reality the trick was to "forget textures, we're doing gouraud shading!"
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2016-02-24T00:37:04Z warweasle: p_l: Got's to love ND. They always seem to do that.
2016-02-24T00:37:41Z warweasle: p_l: What do you mean there are technical limitations? CALL IN GANDAFF! CALL IN THE WIZARD!
2016-02-24T00:38:10Z p_l: or "ok, so let's do a redesign around it so we can get stuff done"
2016-02-24T00:38:50Z warweasle: p_l: Nope: It has to be magic powered by the soul of a forsaken child. One for each copy.
2016-02-24T00:39:59Z p_l: no, that's Google's C++ stuff
2016-02-24T00:42:24Z kenanb: any problems with doing this? (mapcar #'documentation (c2mop:class-slots (find-class 'tcxq::c2)) '#1=(t . #1#))
2016-02-24T00:42:43Z kenanb: ofc I can wrap documentation in a lambda, but this seemed like a great place to use a circular list :)
2016-02-24T00:47:19Z kenanb: I like this because this makes it very obvious that I am mapping documentation of slots, the 't s at the end of a call to documentation are pretty irrelevant from reader perspective, so doing this seemed like it improves readability in a way
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2016-02-24T00:58:15Z Bike: it is technically undefined, and might actually hang on some implementation depending how how it works.
2016-02-24T01:01:20Z kenanb: Bike: how so? this gives me the impression that the behaviour is clearly defined and will terminate: "mapcar operates on successive elements of the lists. function is applied to the first element of each list, then to the second element of each list, and so on. The iteration terminates when the shortest list runs out, and excess elements in other lists are ignored."
2016-02-24T01:01:38Z Bike: the descriptions of the arguments specify that they're proper lists.
2016-02-24T01:03:10Z Zhivago: Consider the case where an implementation attempts to compute the length of the lists in advance, etc.
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2016-02-24T01:03:32Z kenanb: Bike: yeah, I see.
2016-02-24T01:03:47Z kenanb: Zhivago: yep, I was just thinking about such a scenario
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2016-02-24T01:04:30Z kenanb: thank you :) I was so happy I am finally going to use a circular list in a cool way
2016-02-24T01:04:49Z Bike: crushing dreams is what i'm here for
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2016-02-24T01:05:38Z kenanb: now I'll test if any popular implementation actually crashes with this.
2016-02-24T01:05:55Z kenanb: tho I'll not use it in real code ofc
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2016-02-24T01:52:12Z fewdea: hello everyone. i have a remove-if-not question. i have a list that I apply remove-if-not to and I make a new list with it. but at the same time, i actually want to remove those items from the original list. right now, i am iterating the list twice with a remove-if-not and then a remove-if.
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2016-02-24T01:55:18Z kenanb: fewdea: why not iterate through each element with a dolist or loop and if P is T collect to one list, otherwise collect to the other, finally return the former
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2016-02-24T01:56:35Z fewdea: that's an idea. i honestly don't use loop to much. i generally find that dolist serves my needs. thanks for the tip
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2016-02-24T01:57:03Z kenanb: fewdea: you really want to do something with each element regardless, according to the result of a test case. remove-if-not etc are not the right idioms for that.
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2016-02-24T01:59:31Z fewdea: i guess i'd use a 'collect into' or so?
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2016-02-24T02:07:55Z kenanb: fewdea: (defun fn (test &rest args) (loop for elt in args if (funcall test elt) collect elt into l1 else collect elt into l2 finally (return l1)))
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2016-02-24T02:08:40Z fewdea: good timing, i just found a page discussing that
2016-02-24T02:08:43Z kenanb: well, it is not a one liner anymore :) I wish I indented it
2016-02-24T02:09:27Z kenanb: fewdea: (fn #'oddp 1 2 3 4 5 6)
2016-02-24T02:10:01Z kenanb: you can do whatever you want with l2 instead of finally just returning l1
2016-02-24T02:10:43Z fewdea: i guess i didn't realize how much loop could actually do
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2016-02-24T02:11:30Z fewdea: or rather, what i would want to do that dolist couldn't handle. nice
2016-02-24T02:12:28Z kenanb: fewdea: dolist can handle that allright, it is basically just looping through elts and doing things with them. but loop is cool
2016-02-24T02:16:14Z kenanb: fewdea: most of the times it is just rephrasing what you want in a different way in your mind and you realize the solution is there
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2016-02-24T02:18:21Z fewdea: in your example #'oddp  ... the function has to be 'escaped' (or whatever it's called) like that? so if i'm using a lambda, it has to be #'(lambda ...) ?
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2016-02-24T02:19:40Z kenanb: lambda is special in that it doesn't require escaping
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2016-02-24T02:20:03Z kenanb: you can think of lambda form as escaping itself automagically
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2016-02-24T02:20:36Z fewdea: lambda requires a list as its final argument. how does my loop variable get passed into it?
2016-02-24T02:20:53Z kenanb: fewdea: it only does that if not already escaped manually, so basically those two forms output the same thing
2016-02-24T02:21:24Z kenanb: (fn (lambda (x) (oddp x)) 1 2 3 4 5) will work with lambda
2016-02-24T02:21:48Z fewdea: ooohh
2016-02-24T02:21:57Z fewdea: hang on, let me try
2016-02-24T02:22:06Z kenanb: (apply #'fn #'oddp '(1 2 3 4 5))
2016-02-24T02:22:14Z kenanb: and this will work with your list
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2016-02-24T02:22:42Z loke: Good morning lisp!
2016-02-24T02:23:10Z kenanb: fewdea: and as a combination, this will also work: (apply #'fn (lambda (x) (oddp x)) '(1 2 3 4 5))
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2016-02-24T02:24:28Z kenanb: fewdea: you can remove &rest in fn parameter list to make it accept a list as element instead of each element one by one, then it will let you do (fn #'oddp *my-list*) instead
2016-02-24T02:24:42Z kenanb: morning loke
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2016-02-24T03:00:36Z warweasle: Is there a way to destructively change a value in an alist?
2016-02-24T03:01:05Z warweasle: Or should I just use a hash-table and then alex:hash-table-to-alist?
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2016-02-24T03:20:21Z kenanb: warweasle: do you mean destructively modify the list or a value in it?
2016-02-24T03:21:05Z kenanb: (setf (cadr *quux*) 8) => *quux* == (1 8 3 4 5)
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2016-02-24T03:21:34Z kenanb: ah alist
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2016-02-24T03:21:41Z pillton: An alist is just a list of cons objects.
2016-02-24T03:22:17Z kenanb: warweasle: same applies
2016-02-24T03:22:39Z warweasle: pillton: So no special tools for modifying an alist like assoc or the others.
2016-02-24T03:22:50Z warweasle: kenanb, too.
2016-02-24T03:23:18Z pillton: clhs 14.2
2016-02-24T03:23:18Z specbot: The Conses Dictionary: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/c_conses.htm
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2016-02-24T03:24:11Z pillton: I just use assoc to find the cons, and CAR and CDR to modify it.
2016-02-24T03:24:26Z pillton: There might be a fancy function.
2016-02-24T03:24:52Z pillton: You could also use find, find-if or find-if-not.
2016-02-24T03:25:24Z warweasle: pillton: That works great, except when it doesn't exist. I wrote a quick setf method which does both.
2016-02-24T03:25:41Z pillton: Show me.
2016-02-24T03:27:53Z kenanb: warweasle: what exactly do you want to do, remove the assoc? change the value of an assoc in list?
2016-02-24T03:28:47Z warweasle: kenanb: Treat the assoc like a hash table, so I can insert, modify and remove items. But I just realized that and switched to a hash table. :S
2016-02-24T03:29:19Z kenanb: warweasle: (setf (cdr (assoc 5 *test*)) 7)
2016-02-24T03:30:33Z warweasle: kenanb: Something like that. I want to keep everything as alists since I'll have less than 25 things in the list, which *should* be faster. But I can convert it.
2016-02-24T03:30:58Z kenanb: warweasle: what do you mean something like this
2016-02-24T03:30:59Z pillton: warweasle: So leave it as an alist. I don't understand your issue.
2016-02-24T03:31:03Z kenanb: warweasle: this does it
2016-02-24T03:31:13Z warweasle: kenanb: Does it add new items?
2016-02-24T03:31:41Z kenanb: ah so you need a uniform interface for all
2016-02-24T03:32:21Z warweasle: kenanb: Yes, but for what I'm doing right now, I only make them once. So I can just convert the hash table after I bould it.
2016-02-24T03:33:21Z kenanb: warweasle: why not simply shadowing instead of modifying list then?
2016-02-24T03:33:52Z pillton: I think the issue you are having is that when you add an element to a hash table, the hash table is destructively modifier.
2016-02-24T03:33:56Z pillton: modified*.
2016-02-24T03:34:12Z pillton: With alists, it is the binding that is destructively modified.
2016-02-24T03:34:55Z pillton: e.g. To add an item to an alist you do (push (cons x y) my-alist).
2016-02-24T03:36:21Z warweasle: pillton: Well, I implemented it for the run time stuff. I'll just leave the initialization stuff using the hash table, since I need to copy the alist anyway.
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2016-02-24T03:36:53Z pillton: I'm more interested in your comprehension then your use case.
2016-02-24T03:36:54Z kenanb: warweasle: are your keys symbols? because I think you are looking for a plist, not an alist.
2016-02-24T03:37:49Z warweasle: pillton: An alist is just a consed list of cons cells. Each with a key and a value.
2016-02-24T03:38:55Z warweasle: pillton: There are some specialized functions for making and searching them, but there isn't one which will change or add a key-value pair without pushing it on top.
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2016-02-24T03:39:07Z kenanb: warweasle: so you will keep saying that to each other? :)
2016-02-24T03:39:16Z kenanb: yes, indeed it is a list of cons cells
2016-02-24T03:39:33Z kenanb: warweasle: what are your keys?
2016-02-24T03:40:41Z kenanb: warweasle: are they symbols, numbers, strings?
2016-02-24T03:41:05Z warweasle: kenanb: All three.
2016-02-24T03:41:27Z loke: How about a 'equal hash table?
2016-02-24T03:41:30Z pillton: warweasle: The last sentence is where your mental model is broken. You can't make an alist act like a hashtable because lists involve bindings.
2016-02-24T03:42:36Z warweasle: pillton: Right. So using a has is the correct approch for initialization.
2016-02-24T03:43:16Z pillton: That statement is conditioned on the use case.
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2016-02-24T03:44:44Z kenanb: warweasle: well, in order to know that key doesn't exist, you need to walk the whole list whatsoever, so what is the problem with simply pushing it if it returns nil and setting it otherwise?
2016-02-24T03:45:44Z pillton: warweasle: You could do something like (defstruct pairs alist) and define functions getpair, (setf getpair) and rempair which destructively modify an object of type pairs.
2016-02-24T03:45:49Z warweasle: kenanb: I need some objects to be garbage collected and they won't be if they are referenced in an alist.
2016-02-24T03:46:07Z kenanb: dude, they are not going to be referenced anymore
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2016-02-24T03:46:45Z warweasle: pillton: I did that for modifying my alist at run time. But I figured lisp already had that functionality. It usually does; I just don't have time to search every entry in the hyperspec.
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2016-02-24T03:47:50Z pillton: Ok. Now I understand. Those functions don't exist.
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2016-02-24T04:16:12Z kenanb: warweasle: http://paste.lisp.org/display/308081
2016-02-24T04:16:29Z kenanb: warweasle: it might leak in some cases, I don't know much about macros.
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2016-02-24T04:16:54Z warweasle: kenanb: This is more general than what I made. Thanks.
2016-02-24T04:16:55Z kenanb: warweasle: but expansion looks ok,
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2016-02-24T04:18:43Z kenanb: warweasle: still, consider a different structure, approach etc. it seemed to me that the real problem with what you are trying to do might be somewhere else
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2016-02-24T04:19:30Z pillton: There is no reason for that operation to be a macro.
2016-02-24T04:20:42Z kenanb: pillton: how so?
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2016-02-24T04:21:44Z pillton: It still doesn't solve warweasle's real problem which is that alists require changing bindings. Hashtables do not have that issue.
2016-02-24T04:22:10Z kenanb: pillton: how is it not need to be a macro??
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2016-02-24T04:22:42Z pillton: kenanb: There is no need for it to be. What do you gain besides the cornucopia of ` and , ?
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2016-02-24T04:26:55Z kenanb: pillton: how are you going to push to the "place" instead of the data structure without macro?
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2016-02-24T04:30:06Z pillton: Ok. That part you require a macro. The rest you don't.
2016-02-24T04:30:23Z pillton: You shouldn't be using push in that case as the form l will be evaluated twice.
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2016-02-24T04:30:58Z pillton: Once in the ASSOCand once in the PUSH to retrieve the existing value.
2016-02-24T04:31:37Z pillton: Oh wait. It is a symbol. Nevermind.
2016-02-24T04:31:39Z kenanb: pillton: please send alternative instead of criticizing a 5 line macro with 10 lines of text
2016-02-24T04:32:14Z pillton: No. I'm right for a generalised place.
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2016-02-24T04:35:34Z kenanb: pillton: as I said, provide the alternative before stating there is no benefit besides cornicopia of ` and , . and I already stated very clearly that the macro probably leaks.
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2016-02-24T04:36:38Z kenanb: not that it leaks in an obviously problematic way for the use case at hand, it leaks nevertheless.
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2016-02-24T04:42:10Z Bike: it should be a setf of some kind. alexandria has this as alexandria:assoc-value, which is setfable.
2016-02-24T04:42:26Z pillton: kenanb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/308081#1
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2016-02-24T04:43:12Z Bike: so you can do (setf (alexandria:assoc-value list key :test whatever) value) and such.
2016-02-24T04:44:30Z pillton: kenanb: You can confirm the call count bug using http://paste.lisp.org/display/308081#2.
2016-02-24T04:44:35Z Bike: and it handles multiple evaluation and all that other shit. no problemo
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2016-02-24T04:46:27Z kenanb: pillton: dude, I told you it leaks, I know, give it a rest, it is obvious call count is a bug :D
2016-02-24T04:47:23Z kenanb: warweasle: ping! what Bike said.
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2016-02-24T04:49:25Z pillton: kenanb: You asked me to provide code and I provided it. I'm struggling to understand why you are angry with me.
2016-02-24T04:52:30Z kenanb: pillton: yes, and I am reading the first snippet right now. I am not angry, I just don't understand it when people state that there is no need to use x instead of asking why x was used there :)
2016-02-24T04:54:14Z kenanb: anyway, pardon me if I sounded harsh pillton
2016-02-24T04:55:30Z pillton: No worries. Keep in mind that I'm at work so I can't always communicate in real time.
2016-02-24T04:55:31Z Bike: a lot of the time people will write a macro where something needs to be a function, and a usual marker is that backquoting is limited to commas alone. it's slightly subtle that yours actually does deal with places.
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2016-02-24T04:59:23Z kenanb: Bike: yeah, I know people misuse them, IMHO not only because most of the times a function would do it, but also because people always try to hide everything behind some nice looking macros
2016-02-24T04:59:58Z kenanb: while half that stuff just makes things harder to deal with because it turns out the internals are actually relevant
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2016-02-24T05:00:24Z pillton: The other benefit to the approach is that setalist will appear on the call stack when you are profiling.
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2016-02-24T05:00:49Z kenanb: so when I write a macro it is probably because I tried every other way :D (still there are times I misuse them tho)
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2016-02-24T05:01:56Z kenanb: pillton: one thing I am not fond of in your approach is it setf's twice in case of adding the assoc to alist, tho it is harmless.
2016-02-24T05:02:09Z kenanb: except that obviously cooler than mine
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2016-02-24T05:42:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-02-24T05:42:28Z blub: hi beach
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2016-02-24T05:54:58Z jackdaniel: hello o/
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2016-02-24T05:59:09Z kenanb: hi jackdaniel
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2016-02-24T06:19:59Z beach: People should not put URLs in the bibliography of their papers.  The bibliography is for information that is known to remain intact over time.
2016-02-24T06:20:27Z beach is skimming papers submitted to ELS.
2016-02-24T06:21:42Z _z: beach: archive.org could be used :)
2016-02-24T06:21:48Z jackdaniel: beach: on the other hand the may be published _nowhere_ else. What about archive.rog?
2016-02-24T06:21:56Z _z: haha jackdaniel
2016-02-24T06:22:02Z jackdaniel: haha indeed :_)
2016-02-24T06:22:13Z jackdaniel: s/the may/they may/
2016-02-24T06:22:32Z beach: When things are nowhere published, I put the URL in a footnote or in the text itself.  It doesn't belong in the bibliography.
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2016-02-24T06:23:25Z edgar-rft: beach: then authors should not put their name there because they will die sometime?
2016-02-24T06:23:27Z beach: The danger is not so much that things will disappear, but that they will change.
2016-02-24T06:23:34Z _z: Seems archive.org would solve your issue with sites not remaining intact over time, and archive.org isn't going anywhere.
2016-02-24T06:23:59Z _z: beach: archive.org takes snapshots
2016-02-24T06:24:00Z jackdaniel: archive.org takes snapshots, you can refere to the specific time. I think that if a paper is only on the internet it is published neverless
2016-02-24T06:24:07Z _z: So you will see a page as it was that exact day
2016-02-24T06:24:15Z _z: Even if the author changes the page
2016-02-24T06:24:17Z beach: Then the URL is not sufficient.
2016-02-24T06:24:28Z beach: It has to be accompanied by a particular date.
2016-02-24T06:24:33Z jackdaniel: regardless°
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2016-02-24T06:24:48Z beach: I can accept such an entry in the bibliography in the worst case.
2016-02-24T06:24:51Z _z: The URL's have dates though, have you ever used archive.org?
2016-02-24T06:24:54Z _z: Give it a try
2016-02-24T06:24:59Z jackdaniel: on my uni we had to add access date to the reports, if an url was in the bibliography
2016-02-24T06:25:15Z beach: I have.  I am talking about what information to put in the bibliography of a paper.
2016-02-24T06:25:23Z _z: Ahh, sorry sorry.
2016-02-24T06:26:13Z beach: jackdaniel: Exactly my point.
2016-02-24T06:28:40Z jackdaniel: beach: ah, I thought you are against using urls at all
2016-02-24T06:29:06Z jackdaniel: even with the access info and with archive.org snapshot url
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2016-02-24T06:30:23Z beach: jackdaniel: In the bibliography, it is preferable to put references to published material, so that the reader can have some idea that it has been peer reviewed.  But, if it is not published, a URL is acceptable, but only if it has enough information that it remains intact over time.
2016-02-24T06:32:01Z beach: If a reference only exists as a URL, it probably has not been subject to peer review, and it is questionable if it belongs in the bibliography.  There are many other places you can put a URL in a paper.  Personally, I put it in a footnote.
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2016-02-24T06:33:23Z beach: There are exceptions, of course.  And for those exceptions I can see putting a URL in the bibliography, provided it is known that the target remains intact over time.
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2016-02-24T06:33:31Z jackdaniel: I see your point
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2016-02-24T06:34:46Z beach: Thanks. :)
2016-02-24T06:34:48Z jackdaniel: so you consider being publication only the materials, which were the subject of the peer review? (just curious)
2016-02-24T06:35:36Z beach: I haven't thought it through completely, but, yeah, that's my initial reaction.
2016-02-24T06:36:29Z beach: I mean, the other day I was trying to access a reference provided as a URL, and it had been taken over by a porn site.  You can't expect readers of a paper to handle such situations.  It is up to the author to do that job.
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2016-02-24T06:37:55Z jackdaniel: heh, that porno site sounds awful (made me laugh a little though)
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2016-02-24T06:38:27Z jackdaniel: btw, I'm going to resurrect package metering
2016-02-24T06:38:44Z beach: Here is another way of looking at it: It should be possible to hand the bibliography of a paper to a librarian, and the librarian should be able to find the papers, print them, and give them to you.
2016-02-24T06:39:00Z jackdaniel: library for profiling the code (implementation independant)
2016-02-24T06:39:18Z jackdaniel: beach: yes, I fully agree with the last statement
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2016-02-24T06:39:39Z beach: jackdaniel: Shinmera has "trivial-benchmark".
2016-02-24T06:39:44Z beach: Seems to work.
2016-02-24T06:40:06Z jackdaniel: thanks, I'll take look into it
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2016-02-24T06:41:13Z jackdaniel: does it have facility to add functions to profile?
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2016-02-24T06:41:38Z beach: Ah, no.  You have to instrument your code.
2016-02-24T06:42:15Z beach: I use it for stuff that can be left in the code permanently.
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2016-02-24T06:42:55Z jackdaniel: OK, I'll look into it anyway. Is "Artistic License" BSD/LGPL compatible?
2016-02-24T06:43:12Z beach: Pretty sure, yes.
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2016-02-24T06:44:59Z beach: Time to get to work!
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2016-02-24T06:45:16Z jackdaniel: see you o/
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2016-02-24T07:08:11Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: I'll gladly accept a patch to make trivial-benchmark support naming functions to profile.
2016-02-24T07:09:11Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: And yes, artistic should be LGPL compatible in the very least, though it is a bit stricter than BSD https://tldrlegal.com/license/artistic-license-2.0-(artistic)
2016-02-24T07:12:13Z moore33: Whoops, missed beach. Morning all.
2016-02-24T07:12:39Z Shinmera: Good morning.
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2016-02-24T07:14:27Z Shinmera: minion: memo for beach: Regarding your advice to keep docstrings separate from code-- now that I've tried it, I have to agree with you. It's much cleaner this way. I had to write a small library to help with it a bit though: http://shinmera.github.io/documentation-utils/
2016-02-24T07:14:28Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-02-24T08:39:25Z sigjuice: does quicklisp have a way to just download packages?
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2016-02-24T08:44:39Z Bike: to download a system without loading it into the image, you mean?
2016-02-24T08:46:06Z Shinmera: Just installing can be done with (ql-dist:ensure-installed (ql-dist:find-system system-name))
2016-02-24T08:48:35Z Shinmera: Also useful: installing everything (mapc #'ql-dist:ensure-installed (ql-dist:provided-systems (ql-dist:find-dist "quicklisp")))
2016-02-24T08:48:37Z sigjuice: Bike: yes, download without compiling and loading.
2016-02-24T08:48:50Z Bike: looks like ensure-installed does that, yeah.
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2016-02-24T08:49:46Z sigjuice: Shinmera : thanks! That is exactly what I wanted.
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2016-02-24T08:57:12Z Shinmera: Is there a way to force a call to UPDATE-INSTANCE-FOR-REDEFINED-CLASS immediately? MAKE-INSTANCES-OBSOLETE will trigger it to be called, but only at a time "no later than the next slot access".
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2016-02-24T08:59:29Z Bike: for all instances of a class? i don't know if that information is even available.
2016-02-24T09:00:01Z Shinmera: It's not, as far as I can tell, but yes.
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2016-02-24T09:00:25Z Shinmera: I was wondering if I could call some other class method to trigger that operation early.
2016-02-24T09:01:22Z Bike: i mean, presumably the architecture could be something like setting a flag in the class itself, and the slot accesses check that flag...
2016-02-24T09:01:39Z Bike: are you going for an actual semantic effect or is it just to get it all done early?
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2016-02-24T09:03:39Z Shinmera: What's happening is the following: The class has a slot of abstract objects that get turned into 'actual instances' when an instance of the class is made. When the class is then updated on this list, each instance of it needs to re-initialize their list of effective objects as well. These objects have threads associated with them that need to be stopped/started when this update happens, and I'd really like it
2016-02-24T09:03:42Z Shinmera: if it could happen at a controlled point in time, rather than "eventually".
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2016-02-24T09:05:00Z Shinmera: Mostly because the eventual slot access might happen from one of the running threads, meaning the next effect of the code might be outdated, leading to unexpected behaviour.
2016-02-24T09:05:54Z Shinmera: I suppose I'll have to figure out some other protocol that ensures this doesn't happen.
2016-02-24T09:06:25Z brucem: Do a slot access periodically within your thread at safe points in time?
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2016-02-24T09:06:40Z Bike: yeah, i'm not sure that's possible.
2016-02-24T09:06:46Z Shinmera: brucem: euch
2016-02-24T09:08:05Z Shinmera: Either way, I'm once again fascinated by what CLOS allows me to do.
2016-02-24T09:08:11Z Bike: the way it works in sbcl pcl is basically setting a flag that'll trigger a trap on certain accesses. all very low level internal stuff.
2016-02-24T09:08:22Z Shinmera: Right.
2016-02-24T09:08:39Z Shinmera: I already tried digging around a bit and gave up pretty soon.
2016-02-24T09:09:36Z Bike: i think you'd more or less have to maintain your own lists of updatees.
2016-02-24T09:09:50Z brucem: Bike: Like with a memory protection and a page fault handler, and the CPU will end up branch predicting it so that it won't even be terribly slow. (How some VMs implement safe points...)
2016-02-24T09:12:09Z Shinmera: Things get very messy because the objects are detached from this class instance for the most part and I have no control over their class, so it's hard for me to tie in.
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2016-02-24T09:26:28Z ggole: Safe point polling techniques don't seem applicable at the granularity of objects
2016-02-24T09:26:54Z ggole: Maybe if you take a safe point and then walk the entire heap?
2016-02-24T09:27:41Z brucem: ggole: that's what the JVM does for class redefinition.
2016-02-24T09:27:59Z brucem: (safe point + walk) (That's my understanding)
2016-02-24T09:28:10Z ggole: Hmm. I thought they only used that for code invalidation.
2016-02-24T09:28:44Z ggole: eg, your generated code relies on an assumption that there is only one class in a heirarchy, and then class loading invalidates the assumption
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2016-02-24T09:29:47Z ggole: Could easily be wrong.
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2016-02-24T09:31:54Z brucem: ggole: You might be right. :)
2016-02-24T09:34:10Z ggole: And my understanding is that the CL redefinition semantics were specifically designed to avoid the necessity to walk the entire heap
2016-02-24T09:34:34Z ggole: Although that doesn't necessarily mean an implementation must not do that
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2016-02-24T09:35:14Z Shinmera: Yeah, class redefinition says that the point in time at which the instance is updated is implementation dependant, but must be no later than the next access to the instance.
2016-02-24T09:35:30Z Shinmera: clhs 4.3.6
2016-02-24T09:35:30Z specbot: Redefining Classes: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_cf.htm
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2016-02-24T09:35:49Z Shinmera: "pdating such an instance occurs at an implementation-dependent time, but no later than the next time a slot of that instance is read or written."
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2016-02-24T09:42:53Z splittist_: beach: the MLA* citation guide says "Although MLA guidelines previously recommended including URLs in a bibliography entry, that is no longer the case. In general, URLs are subject to change and can become outdated, refer to a session in use, and be very long. Users are more likely to find an article now by searching titles or author names."
2016-02-24T09:43:13Z splittist_: * I wouldn't normally cite the MLA for anything serious, but thought this comment interesting.
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2016-02-24T09:45:52Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/issues/165
2016-02-24T09:48:23Z Shinmera: I suppose one way would be to store a weak pointer list to each instance within the class itself.
2016-02-24T09:48:47Z Shinmera: Though that makes me rather uncomfortable.
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2016-02-24T09:50:43Z Shinmera: I don't expect there to be many instances of such a class at any point in time, so it's not too bad, but still.
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2016-02-24T10:09:00Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: one more question regarding clasp – is dev branch stable? or it's rather a no-go?
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2016-02-24T10:11:35Z Shinmera: dev branch may not even build at any particular point in time.
2016-02-24T10:11:56Z Shinmera: if anything go with testing.
2016-02-24T10:12:20Z Shinmera: that usually builds.
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2016-02-24T10:13:59Z jackdaniel: I'll take the master then
2016-02-24T10:14:45Z jackdaniel: regarding the trivial-benchmarks, then I'll probably go that path (that is providing the missing functionality to your library)
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2016-02-24T10:17:16Z Shinmera: Ok, cool! :)
2016-02-24T10:18:20Z DeadTrickster: who uses SICL really? I see it is actively developed
2016-02-24T10:18:40Z Shinmera: It's not complete by any means, so nobody.
2016-02-24T10:19:08Z Shinmera: Last I checked beach was still reworking his bootstrapping methods.
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2016-02-24T10:19:44Z DeadTrickster: that is stange with so many stars and forks
2016-02-24T10:20:17Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: it is usable afaik, but you have to run it with the another implementation as a host
2016-02-24T10:20:29Z jackdaniel: so you can try new things
2016-02-24T10:20:35Z Shinmera: DeadTrickster: and yet none of the forks have any actual commits
2016-02-24T10:21:30Z DeadTrickster: yep I'm looking at his contributions history
2016-02-24T10:21:33Z DeadTrickster: just amaizing
2016-02-24T10:21:40Z DeadTrickster: every single day
2016-02-24T10:21:48Z Shinmera: It is his job after all.
2016-02-24T10:22:08Z Shinmera: Well, the job is research, of which SICL is a large part of.
2016-02-24T10:22:18Z DeadTrickster: lucky guy
2016-02-24T10:22:33Z Shinmera: And we're lucky to have him be lucky :)
2016-02-24T10:23:15Z loke: What are your streak records on github?
2016-02-24T10:23:29Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2016-02-24T10:23:37Z DeadTrickster: loke, whose? mine?
2016-02-24T10:23:43Z loke: Any of you :-)
2016-02-24T10:23:56Z DeadTrickster: my longest is 59 days
2016-02-24T10:23:57Z loke: My current streak is 45 :-)
2016-02-24T10:24:02Z loke: I think my record is around 70-ish
2016-02-24T10:24:11Z Shinmera: http://buttcode.com says 22 days, though I had a longer streak than that on previous years.
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2016-02-24T10:24:33Z Shinmera: And github doesn't count stuff on non-master branches.
2016-02-24T10:24:34Z jackdaniel: let me check
2016-02-24T10:24:35Z loke: It'
2016-02-24T10:24:37Z jackdaniel: 3 days
2016-02-24T10:24:50Z loke: It's funny. If you look at my contributions, you can tell when Potato was opensourced :-)
2016-02-24T10:24:51Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs
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2016-02-24T10:25:37Z DeadTrickster: I must say github algorithm for counting contributions is stange
2016-02-24T10:25:51Z william3 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-02-24T10:25:52Z DeadTrickster: it prefers commits count over sizes
2016-02-24T10:25:54Z loke: DeadTrickster: Yes. it's stupid
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2016-02-24T10:26:19Z loke: I usually break down my commits into very small pices so I end up with lots of committs
2016-02-24T10:26:27Z DeadTrickster: yesterday I publish 60k of shitty c# code and that day is light green
2016-02-24T10:27:02Z Shinmera: There's also http://github-awards.com/users/search?login=shinmera
2016-02-24T10:27:33Z loke: Shinmera: I like your contributions :-)
2016-02-24T10:27:50Z loke: Mostly Lisp, it seems?
2016-02-24T10:27:57Z Shinmera: Pretty much all of it, yes.
2016-02-24T10:28:09Z Shinmera: I only got into open source after I got into lisp.
2016-02-24T10:28:15Z loke: Is there a way to get committ statistics broken down per language?
2016-02-24T10:28:42Z Shinmera: Not as far as I know.
2016-02-24T10:28:50Z DeadTrickster: nah my CL rank is 251
2016-02-24T10:28:59Z loke: DeadTrickster: How can you tell the rank?
2016-02-24T10:29:02Z DeadTrickster: I thought it was far worse
2016-02-24T10:29:11Z DeadTrickster: http://github-awards.com/users/search?login=deadtrickster
2016-02-24T10:29:34Z DeadTrickster: fukamachi is first
2016-02-24T10:29:42Z DeadTrickster: not surprising though
2016-02-24T10:29:54Z loke: I'm 446
2016-02-24T10:29:59Z loke: But number 1 in Singapore :-)
2016-02-24T10:30:17Z Shinmera: :applause:
2016-02-24T10:30:17Z Colleen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3i9ilHpPko
2016-02-24T10:31:24Z DeadTrickster: cool
2016-02-24T10:31:33Z loke: Hmm, this is number 2 in Common Lisp in Singapore. Anyone know him?
2016-02-24T10:31:34Z loke: https://github.com/jasonm23
2016-02-24T10:31:39Z DeadTrickster: now I should go write yet another webframework
2016-02-24T10:31:51Z DeadTrickster: and then count starts
2016-02-24T10:31:52Z loke: Oh wait. That's emacs lisp :-)
2016-02-24T10:31:53Z DeadTrickster: stars
2016-02-24T10:32:21Z Shinmera looks at his web framework and counts a whopping 13 stars
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2016-02-24T10:33:07Z loke: Potato has 44 stars, but it's not registered to me
2016-02-24T10:33:07Z DeadTrickster: I have unpublished one already surprisingly again it works on production servers but I think it is still shitty to open source it
2016-02-24T10:33:18Z loke: Even though (almost) all the CL code in it is wtitten by me
2016-02-24T10:33:21Z loke: Also unfair
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2016-02-24T10:33:41Z Shinmera: Point being that github stars are a pointless e-peen statistic of no real value
2016-02-24T10:33:51Z loke: I agree
2016-02-24T10:33:57Z DeadTrickster: moreover when I returned to lisp 4 or 5 years ago the field was empty and now we have guys like fukamachi
2016-02-24T10:34:31Z Shinmera: What I would be interested in is to see the QL library count over time. I think Xach had some of that at his ELS'15 keynote.
2016-02-24T10:34:54Z loke: Oh wait. I'm 199 in Common Lisp in the world!
2016-02-24T10:34:55Z loke: Yay!
2016-02-24T10:34:57Z loke: I beat you :-)
2016-02-24T10:35:12Z DeadTrickster: you totaly deserve it man
2016-02-24T10:35:48Z loke: You're just slightly behind. Come on! If you beat me I'll start promoting my Web framework which only has 5 stars right now :-)
2016-02-24T10:36:18Z Shinmera: Spam post to hackernews
2016-02-24T10:36:46Z DeadTrickster: here is the story I have erlang lib called ssl_verify_hostname it used so widely https://hex.pm/packages/ssl_verify_hostname
2016-02-24T10:36:50Z DeadTrickster: and it has 6 stars
2016-02-24T10:37:01Z ralt: woo, I'm 70th worldwide
2016-02-24T10:37:01Z DeadTrickster: after that I don't care anymore
2016-02-24T10:37:08Z ralt: and 2nd in France
2016-02-24T10:37:10Z loke: ralt: CL? Woah
2016-02-24T10:37:14Z loke: What's your githum name?
2016-02-24T10:37:18Z ralt: ralt
2016-02-24T10:37:31Z DeadTrickster: surprise
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2016-02-24T10:37:46Z loke: ralt: Number 1 in frenoble!
2016-02-24T10:37:48Z loke: granoble
2016-02-24T10:37:52Z loke: grenoble
2016-02-24T10:38:04Z ralt: oops
2016-02-24T10:38:06Z ralt: I need to change that
2016-02-24T10:38:18Z loke: http://github-awards.com/users/search?login=lokedhs
2016-02-24T10:38:31Z loke: 70 in the world. Woah
2016-02-24T10:38:53Z loke: ralt: You need a better streak though
2016-02-24T10:38:53Z ralt: pretty sure that https://gitlab.com/ralt/avesh would help a lot if it were on github
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2016-02-24T10:39:54Z ralt: woo
2016-02-24T10:39:57Z ralt: 62 worldwide now
2016-02-24T10:41:12Z brucem: loke: GitHub is lame and cuts peoples streaks off at 3 years / 1095 days.
2016-02-24T10:41:13Z jackdaniel wonders if it's just an enormously prolonged joke, or you're really comparing your streaks, ranks etc
2016-02-24T10:41:26Z ralt: CL is a small world...
2016-02-24T10:42:32Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: both
2016-02-24T10:44:55Z loke: jackdaniel: We are. :-)
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2016-02-24T10:47:14Z DeadTrickster: do we have something capable of generating QR codes?
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2016-02-24T10:47:54Z Shinmera: a system-apropos brings https://github.com/jnjcc/cl-qrencode
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2016-02-24T10:48:22Z DeadTrickster: nah GPLed lisp code
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2016-02-24T10:50:21Z ralt: ha, I started writing one, then got sidetracked
2016-02-24T10:50:58Z ralt: that was 2 years ago, no idea how usable the code is https://github.com/ralt/qrl
2016-02-24T10:51:55Z Shinmera is reminded that he started writing a random generator lib
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2016-02-24T10:55:39Z DeadTrickster: ralt,  I'm reading your blog post 'common lisp and docker'
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2016-02-24T10:56:12Z DeadTrickster: and I have question: is it huge difference?
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2016-02-24T11:08:43Z ralt: DeadTrickster: huge difference in what?
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2016-02-24T11:14:23Z Shinmera: Huzzah, core Colleen works! https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/T1RJMQ==
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2016-02-24T11:27:35Z ralt: Shinmera: is that some kind of AI?
2016-02-24T11:28:07Z Shinmera: ralt: Uuuh, no. What gave you that idea?
2016-02-24T11:28:45Z ralt: you're sending "No need to get so worked up", and it's replying "OH NOO!!! O H   S H I T !"
2016-02-24T11:29:00Z Shinmera: Look at the alert handler definition
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2016-02-24T11:29:51Z Shinmera: The event before that switched the component's mode, making it do something different on the next message event.
2016-02-24T11:29:58Z ralt: ah, sorry
2016-02-24T11:30:43Z Shinmera: It's just a complex event delivery system.
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2016-02-24T11:33:02Z Shinmera: The point of all this being that you can redefine handlers and it'll automatically tie all the links back up between handlers, components, and cores.
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2016-02-24T12:06:51Z myrkraverk: Is it possible to make (with DECLAIM or otherwise) a CFFI C function a "very thin wrapper" around the actual C call?
2016-02-24T12:07:49Z myrkraverk: What I want to make fast, (inline preferably) is (defcfun ("clock_gettime" clock-gettime) :int (clock-id :int) (timespec :pointer))
2016-02-24T12:08:12Z myrkraverk: But the resurting disassembly is huge by defaulty.
2016-02-24T12:08:43Z loke`: myrkraverk: If you want to go platform-specific you can use the inline assembly in SB-ASM
2016-02-24T12:09:12Z myrkraverk: loke`: do I need that, to make it a really thin wrapper?
2016-02-24T12:09:37Z loke`: myrkraverk: I think so. I presume you don't want typechecking
2016-02-24T12:10:30Z myrkraverk: For the record, I'm callig it like this (right now) [ omitting output in example ] = (with-foreign-object (ts 'timespec) (clock-gettime 4 ts))
2016-02-24T12:10:46Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-02-24T12:10:58Z myrkraverk: loke`: and no declaims will make the typechecking go away?
2016-02-24T12:11:41Z loke`: myrkraverk: I doubt it. Although I have to admit that I've never had performance problems with CFFI calls so I haven't looked too closely.
2016-02-24T12:13:55Z myrkraverk: I see.  With some output omitted, the defcfun results in: ... (DEFUN CLOCK-GETTIME (CLOCK-ID TIMESPEC) ... (CFFI-SYS:%FOREIGN-FUNCALL "clock_gettime" ... ))
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2016-02-24T12:14:25Z loke`: myrkraverk: what if you inline clokc-gettikme?
2016-02-24T12:14:37Z myrkraverk: How do I inline it?
2016-02-24T12:15:32Z myrkraverk: I thought I had to declare it inline inside the defun, which defcfun does not allow, afaik.
2016-02-24T12:17:01Z loke`: No
2016-02-24T12:17:09Z loke`: (declaim (inline FUNCNAME))
2016-02-24T12:17:20Z myrkraverk: Ok, I'll try that.
2016-02-24T12:17:20Z loke`: You put the declaim _before_ the function declaration
2016-02-24T12:19:21Z myrkraverk: Ok.  I'll experiment a bit with that.
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2016-02-24T12:40:21Z myrkraverk: At first glance, inlining it "works" but it the function is still huge.
2016-02-24T12:41:13Z myrkraverk: Of course, I can't tell, with only a single function call, how much of the boiler plate is around it, and inside it.  I'll need more experiments; but first dinner.
2016-02-24T12:43:20Z myrkraverk: Also if there are CFFI experts in here who can answer this in the mean time: how do I create more than one foregin obect at a time?  Apparently (with-foreign-object (ts '(:pointer (:struct timespec)))  ... ) only allows one.
2016-02-24T12:43:50Z loke`: myrkraverk: WITH-FOREIGN-OBJECTS
2016-02-24T12:44:06Z myrkraverk: There's a plural?  I didn't find it in the manual.
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2016-02-24T12:44:50Z myrkraverk: Oh, there is, thank you.
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2016-02-24T12:45:30Z loke`: I only ever use the plural form
2016-02-24T12:45:33Z loke`: even for single elements
2016-02-24T12:45:53Z myrkraverk: I see, it's the example that only has the singular form.
2016-02-24T12:46:03Z dim: CFFI maintainers in the room? about https://bugs.launchpad.net/cffi/+bug/1549280, consider asking me for details and testing, I'm available here for that!
2016-02-24T12:46:06Z loke`: the plural form is closer to LET :-)
2016-02-24T12:46:07Z myrkraverk: which may be why I missed it.
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2016-02-24T12:46:18Z myrkraverk: Yeah, it is.
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2016-02-24T12:51:11Z fe[nl]ix: dim: replied on launchpad
2016-02-24T12:51:49Z loke`: hello fenlix
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2016-02-24T12:52:33Z fe[nl]ix: hi loke`
2016-02-24T12:52:56Z loke`: I haven't seen you for a while :-)
2016-02-24T12:53:18Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: How was ITA?
2016-02-24T12:53:23Z fe[nl]ix: I'm busy at work
2016-02-24T12:53:29Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: ??
2016-02-24T12:53:43Z fe[nl]ix: you meant he visit to the Cambridge office ?
2016-02-24T12:54:06Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: Didn't you fly over to America to get introduced to google flights?
2016-02-24T12:54:27Z fe[nl]ix: yes :)
2016-02-24T12:54:35Z fe[nl]ix: it was pretty nice
2016-02-24T12:54:40Z fe[nl]ix: some interesting topics
2016-02-24T12:58:04Z igam: splittist_: what this MLA quote reflects, is only the dire failure of URL (or URI rather) usage wrt their original purpose.  Perhaps librarians should define a librarian specific scheme to identify books and papers.  They already have semi-formal or formal systems, they'd need to define them within the URI framework so it could be integrated into browsers and seach engines.
2016-02-24T12:59:01Z igam: Things like  urn:isbn:0-486-27557-4
2016-02-24T13:01:27Z igam: Shinmera: but at least, sicl is very actively maintained. You should take advantage of it right now, since later (when it'll be completed), it might be less actively maintained.
2016-02-24T13:02:02Z Shinmera: igam: I'll take advantage of it once it's actually ready.
2016-02-24T13:02:13Z Shinmera: Just because something is being worked on right now doesn't mean you should use it.
2016-02-24T13:02:19Z igam: Shinmera: I've been working on some project on branches for years now :-)
2016-02-24T13:02:41Z igam: Shinmera: sure, I am just ironic about the whole maintained/unmaintained stuff :-)
2016-02-24T13:02:42Z Shinmera: So?
2016-02-24T13:02:49Z Shinmera: Uh, ok.
2016-02-24T13:03:04Z igam: So github streak is an artificatial gamification I don't bent to.
2016-02-24T13:04:06Z fe[nl]ix: dim: http://paste.lisp.org/+6LQY
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2016-02-24T13:04:33Z loke`: igam: If it's not in your github streak, it doesn't exist. :-)
2016-02-24T13:04:42Z igam: :-)
2016-02-24T13:04:48Z loke`: igam: clearly you're a lazy coder that doesn't do anything
2016-02-24T13:05:05Z igam: Or who is spread too thin over too many projects?
2016-02-24T13:05:16Z loke`: igam: Sleep less :-)
2016-02-24T13:05:58Z fe[nl]ix: dim: I know commercial software that only bundles the GUI libraries and loads at runtime all platform libraries, just like in that paste
2016-02-24T13:06:04Z igam: I'm waiting for development of quantum technology to split myself into parallel universes  :-)
2016-02-24T13:06:14Z fe[nl]ix: dim: you're in the same situation
2016-02-24T13:07:14Z Shinmera: igam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7rZO2ACP3A
2016-02-24T13:08:20Z myrkraverk: What's a github streak?
2016-02-24T13:09:49Z Shinmera: How many consecutive days you've pushed at least one master-branch commit to github.
2016-02-24T13:10:29Z myrkraverk: Ah, like a fighting game "combo".
2016-02-24T13:10:42Z myrkraverk: I only host stuff on github, I don't use it.
2016-02-24T13:10:55Z myrkraverk: So that's irrelevant in my case.
2016-02-24T13:12:27Z igam: myrkraverk: actually it doesn't matter, you don't have to push to github in real time. It uses the commit dates. Somebody created an git repo with commit dates such as the streak graphic display on github webpage shows a specific message. :-)
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2016-02-24T13:12:49Z igam: check it: https://github.com/gelstudios/gitfiti
2016-02-24T13:13:15Z igam: https://github.com/bayandin/github-board
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2016-02-24T13:44:36Z DeadTrickster: igam, you could switch default branch it commit will show up in stat
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2016-02-24T13:45:10Z DeadTrickster: s/it commit/and commits/
2016-02-24T13:45:42Z SAL9000: igam: github history vandalism as a service :-) http://pokrovsky.herokuapp.com/
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2016-02-24T14:07:57Z myrkraverk: igam: well, I still don't use git for the intermediat commits, and I don't want to export it.
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2016-02-24T14:25:27Z myrkraverk: I am correct that (with-foreign-objects ((before '(:pointer (:struct timespec))) ... ; actually allocates the *object* and then takes a pointer?
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2016-02-24T14:26:54Z myrkraverk: I am seeing som strange results with clock-gettime and want to be sure that's not the problem.
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2016-02-24T14:30:56Z fe[nl]ix: myrkraverk: no, you must only allocate a '(:struct timespec)
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2016-02-24T14:32:07Z myrkraverk: Oh, yeah, thanks.
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2016-02-24T14:33:19Z fe[nl]ix: myrkraverk: remember that all CFFI allocation is like malloc. you pass it the object type and get back a pointer
2016-02-24T14:33:35Z myrkraverk: Ah.
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2016-02-24T14:39:45Z myrkraverk: Ok, my first naive way to try to optimize clock_gettime seems to be failing, but maybe it's "fast enough" anyway to not put too much overhead on my profiling.
2016-02-24T14:40:08Z myrkraverk: So I guess I'll just start with it as-is.
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2016-02-24T14:47:55Z fe[nl]ix: myrkraverk: why do you want to do that ?
2016-02-24T14:47:59Z fe[nl]ix: optimize how ?
2016-02-24T14:48:48Z myrkraverk: Make it as thin wrapper around the C call as possible, but afaict, the lisp code always does the type checking/coercion.
2016-02-24T14:49:24Z fe[nl]ix: what coercion ?
2016-02-24T14:49:38Z myrkraverk: Maybe that's a limitaiton of CFFI.
2016-02-24T14:51:13Z myrkraverk: From the disassembly: ALLOC-UNSIGNED-BIGNUM-IN-RDX, then 'SB-ALIEN-INTERNALS:*SAVED-FP-AND-PCS*, and SB-ALIEN-INTERNALS:*SAVED-FP-AND-PCS*, and so on, for each call.
2016-02-24T14:52:43Z fe[nl]ix: can you paste the code ?
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2016-02-24T14:53:23Z jackdaniel: froggey: are you around?
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2016-02-24T14:55:21Z jackdaniel: during running the cold-generator I have Bad function name (EQL MEZZANO.SUPERVISOR::I 14) when processing supervisor/cpu.llf file (sbcl-1.2.10)
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2016-02-24T14:56:44Z myrkraverk: http://paste.lisp.org/+6LR3
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2016-02-24T14:58:44Z myrkraverk: and an annotation with the contstants.
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2016-02-24T15:06:55Z jackdaniel: froggey: nvm, replacing #'eql with #'= seems to fix the problem (in supervison/cpu.lisp). I'll send a pull request later
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2016-02-24T15:12:46Z fe[nl]ix: myrkraverk: there isn't much you can do. 64bit values are bignums
2016-02-24T15:14:05Z myrkraverk: the function signature is int, pointer, though, and return value is int.
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2016-02-24T15:14:43Z myrkraverk: Or maybe it's the pointer that's the problem.
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2016-02-24T15:15:37Z fe[nl]ix: no, the allocation is done when converting the foreign memory to Lisp, to pass to cl:format for printing
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2016-02-24T15:17:44Z fe[nl]ix: and also before, when doing the subtracting
2016-02-24T15:18:07Z myrkraverk: Hmm, maybe I was reading the disassembly wrong.
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2016-02-24T15:19:53Z myrkraverk: Anyway, I'll use this as-is for now.
2016-02-24T15:20:58Z myrkraverk: The overhead is probably insignificant [why do I always read this word in the voice of Darth Vader?] compared to the clock_gettime() call itself.
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2016-02-24T15:21:10Z myrkraverk: Though it would be nice to know for sure.
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2016-02-24T15:23:06Z fe[nl]ix: clock_gettime is very fast nowadays because it's a vsyscall
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2016-02-24T15:23:30Z myrkraverk: the timers themselves may not be so fast though.
2016-02-24T15:24:14Z myrkraverk: But the literature on timer speed is several years old.
2016-02-24T15:24:19Z myrkraverk: At least the ones I found.
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2016-02-24T15:25:02Z fe[nl]ix: myrkraverk: http://stackoverflow.com/a/13096917
2016-02-24T15:25:56Z fe[nl]ix: the vsyscall is probably under 10ns
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2016-02-24T15:28:25Z myrkraverk: ah, thanks.
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2016-02-24T15:32:37Z DeadTrickster: myrkraverk, what are you writing?
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2016-02-24T15:35:09Z myrkraverk: Thread accounting, I want to know if locking around the single threaded parts in my application are taking long enough to matter, compared to http requests and database queries.
2016-02-24T15:36:36Z myrkraverk: So basically, I want to know if the locks are contested enough to be worth the effort of sub-library locking (C++).
2016-02-24T15:36:48Z Shinmera: Why do you need such precise timing for that? Just run your single-threaded parts with dummy date a couple million times.
2016-02-24T15:37:00Z Shinmera: *data
2016-02-24T15:37:41Z myrkraverk: I don't have that luxury, the live data is through http, the only way to get accurate timing is in production.
2016-02-24T15:37:54Z Shinmera: Note the word "dummy data"
2016-02-24T15:38:22Z myrkraverk: If the http is taking long enough, I don't care about contention in locking.
2016-02-24T15:38:40Z myrkraverk: And fine grained locking is "complex".
2016-02-24T15:39:17Z Shinmera: Such fine grained timing is prone to be off due to all sorts of other factors
2016-02-24T15:39:24Z myrkraverk: I know.
2016-02-24T15:39:30Z Shinmera: So you need big samples anyway.
2016-02-24T15:40:01Z PuercoPop: 10:09 <igam> [07:58:04] splittist_: what this MLA quote reflects, is only the dire failure of URL (or URI rather) usage wrt their original purpose.  Perhaps librarians should define a librarian specific scheme to identify books and papers.  They already have semi-formal or formal systems, they'd need to define them within the URI framework so it could be integrated into browsers and seach engines.
2016-02-24T15:40:12Z PuercoPop: sorry about that
2016-02-24T15:40:16Z myrkraverk: I think I can get it accurate enough after a few days in production.
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2016-02-24T15:40:52Z myrkraverk: Or, that's the hope.  I've lost hope that I can easily just do the fine grained locking.
2016-02-24T15:41:08Z Shinmera: I still don't understand why you need to test this in production at all. You can test your serial parts with dummy data and you can also simulate http requests if that's the problem.
2016-02-24T15:41:21Z myrkraverk: And having performance monitors in production is a good thing.  It gives the boss a nice graph to look at.
2016-02-24T15:41:49Z myrkraverk: Shinmera: And I don't care to try to explain it further.
2016-02-24T15:41:53Z DeadTrickster: so presumably you have http server? which one?
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2016-02-24T15:42:09Z myrkraverk: Many, actually.
2016-02-24T15:42:11Z Shinmera throws hands up in the air
2016-02-24T15:42:13Z Shinmera: alright
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2016-02-24T15:57:22Z attila_lendvai: luis: I'm looking into it, will push a fix/test
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2016-02-24T16:10:19Z clintm: Can any of you recommend project or maybe papers or really any resources for mitigating the risks of evaluating code received externally?  I'm working on a project that evals (maybe there's a better way even to do that) foms received over websockets.
2016-02-24T16:11:30Z clintm: I'm using a version let over lambda's 'read-from-string' and some simple scrubbing, but I'm sure there's been more work done with regard to this
2016-02-24T16:11:33Z PuercoPop: clintm: there is a paste service that runs things in a jail that intercepts syscalls. That seems like a sane approach
2016-02-24T16:11:47Z fe[nl]ix: clintm: what do you want to do ?
2016-02-24T16:11:58Z Shinmera: clintm: The obvious points are timeouts and resource caps, and having an interpreter that can only do what you must.
2016-02-24T16:12:21Z clintm: PuercoPop - oh yea, that sounds like just the kind of thing I should look at.
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2016-02-24T16:12:55Z fe[nl]ix: why read external data ?
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2016-02-24T16:13:22Z clintm: I'm using google's blockly to make an interface to writing cl for an internal tool for the people who want to write scripts and stuff, but don't know the language.
2016-02-24T16:13:30Z clintm: and don't have the inclination to learn.
2016-02-24T16:14:05Z clintm: The part that handles the execution receives forms over a websocket, evaluates it, and returns simple strings back.  In a nutshell.
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2016-02-24T16:14:44Z clintm: Later I'll have it generate more complex results from json and parse them on the client, but this is early stage.
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2016-02-24T16:15:29Z clintm: It's a controlled environment, but we all probably know the perils in just relying on that.
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2016-02-24T16:16:08Z Shinmera: clintm: In that case limiting symbol access and adding timeouts seems like "enough" to me.
2016-02-24T16:17:51Z clintm: Shinmera : I think that combined with the jail approach might be just the thing.
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2016-02-24T16:20:34Z clintm: Thanks, everyone!
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2016-02-24T16:32:27Z clintm: PuercoPop: if you happen to remember which code paste site you were referring to, I'd love to know.
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2016-02-24T16:32:53Z clintm: Oh, looks like I foudn it.
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2016-02-24T16:59:05Z doudou:  Nohttp://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact t Found  The requested URL /irc-logs/lisp/>|contact was not found on this server. where do i start? i start from pythin
2016-02-24T16:59:06Z PuercoPop: clintm: jic, I was talking about codepag.org
2016-02-24T16:59:46Z Shinmera: doudou: what
2016-02-24T16:59:51Z doudou: i found http://cliki.net/ sorry
2016-02-24T17:00:52Z doudou: the name was so ridiculous cliki i went to paste.lisp i skip too, then clozure.com but said 404
2016-02-24T17:01:11Z Shinmera: what
2016-02-24T17:01:57Z doudou: now i found, thanks cliki is what i need
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2016-02-24T17:07:42Z attila_lendvai groans at RT (regression-test)
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2016-02-24T17:22:40Z dim: is there a string-prefix function in the alexandria et al common libs? sounds like it's all about checking length then string<, right?
2016-02-24T17:23:39Z doudou: http://ccl.clozure.com/docs/ccl.html#programming-with-threads does it mean that we cant ask kernel to let always thread finish until i/o block it under linux? that any time kernel can stop a thread to do something?
2016-02-24T17:23:41Z dim: there's something in uiop, string-prefix-p, that I might use
2016-02-24T17:24:25Z doudou: and if kernel block thread, kernel with conyinue with same thread or can change?
2016-02-24T17:24:30Z Xach_: dim: string= with bounds is what i sometimes use after a length check
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2016-02-24T17:24:44Z dim: that's the uiop version then
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2016-02-24T17:24:50Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-02-24T17:24:51Z minion: beach, memo from Shinmera: Regarding your advice to keep docstrings separate from code-- now that I've tried it, I have to agree with you. It's much cleaner this way. I had to write a small library to help with it a bit though: http://shinmera.github.io/documentation-utils/
2016-02-24T17:24:58Z dim: well in this case one of the string is a constant in the code
2016-02-24T17:25:02Z dim: I want to avoid repeating it
2016-02-24T17:25:41Z attila_lendvai: dim: alexandria:starts-with-subseq
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2016-02-24T17:26:40Z dim: well I'd rather use UIOP/UTILITY:STRING-PREFIX-P actually
2016-02-24T17:26:48Z dim: thanks all, didn't want to reinvent the wheel
2016-02-24T17:29:07Z beach: Shinmera: Looks good.  However, I don't think the expressions in the body of DEFINE-DOCS are forms as the documentation and the signature claim.
2016-02-24T17:31:17Z Shinmera: beach: Oh?
2016-02-24T17:31:53Z beach: form n. 1. any object meant to be evaluated.
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2016-02-24T17:32:04Z Shinmera: Ah.
2016-02-24T17:32:14Z beach: They are expressions though.
2016-02-24T17:32:31Z Shinmera: Right, I'll change that then.
2016-02-24T17:32:49Z beach: Yes, I think that would be a good idea.
2016-02-24T17:36:55Z attila_lendvai is almost done fixing cffi
2016-02-24T17:38:12Z Xach_: attila_lendvai: what should i do about my recent build failures?
2016-02-24T17:38:48Z attila_lendvai: Xach: I don't know, I'll push the fixes soon. maybe luis can make a quick release and then just retry?
2016-02-24T17:38:54Z Shinmera: beach: Should be done.
2016-02-24T17:39:13Z Xach_: attila_lendvai: your changes will make things build again?
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2016-02-24T17:39:25Z attila_lendvai: this of course assumes that they are simple fixes in cffi, that doesn't require fixing the libs
2016-02-24T17:39:34Z attila_lendvai: Xach: for now it looks like
2016-02-24T17:39:45Z Xach_: attila_lendvai: i can test with master temporarily.
2016-02-24T17:40:05Z beach: Shinmera: Looks like it. :)
2016-02-24T17:40:09Z attila_lendvai: Xach: I'll let you know if I don't see any more issues on my side and it's all pushed
2016-02-24T17:40:15Z attila_lendvai: s/if/when/
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2016-02-24T17:43:03Z Xach_: what's up with the :sizet thing?
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2016-02-24T17:44:23Z attila_lendvai: just started to look into that
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2016-02-24T17:51:30Z max3: i know this isn't #clojure but no one is responding to me there so: if conversions is a map with functions as values (of the correct types) and vamp-key and value are both strings can someone tell me what this does:  ((get conversions vamp-key) value)
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2016-02-24T17:53:05Z beach: Maybe it would be better to choose the language you use according to the willingness of the IRC channel to help. :)
2016-02-24T17:53:36Z max3: beach, maybe
2016-02-24T17:53:45Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: what's the deal with gsll using :sizet? who is supposed to define it and where? (with CFFI master it's not found)
2016-02-24T17:53:45Z max3: but my shop does clojure so i'm stuck
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2016-02-24T17:53:59Z Bike: it grabs a function from conversions based on the key vamp-key, and calls that function on value.
2016-02-24T17:54:12Z Bike: probably. maybe.
2016-02-24T17:54:33Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: It used to be in CFFI. I did not remove it.
2016-02-24T17:54:34Z max3: Bike, thank you
2016-02-24T17:55:09Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: Did you remove it?
2016-02-24T17:55:25Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: hrm. ok, I'll look at the diffs and see if that was a valid expectation or not. I don't remember removing it, but it may have been removed as a sideffect of some change
2016-02-24T17:55:58Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: It is not acceptable to remove it, because GSLL depends on it.
2016-02-24T18:01:52Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: I see now, it's this change: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/commit/4fbe5864552d6f7d8866745f371346174acea942 I have turned :sizet into a cffi::size-t. I don't think CFFI should pick random C definitions and define them in the keyword package... gsll should just refer to an internal symbol, or grovel it for itself, no? or *maybe*, cffi-libffi export it
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2016-02-24T18:03:29Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: does gsll use grovel? maybe it should grovel it for itself?
2016-02-24T18:03:43Z |3b| thinks size-t is common enough for cffi to do it once
2016-02-24T18:04:23Z LiamH: |3b|: I agree. And I agreed before, which is why I moved from GSLL (the way attila_lendvai wants) to CFFI.
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2016-02-24T18:04:26Z |3b| has wanted it a few times, but just hard codes it based on arch since i don't feel like trying to remember how grovel works for 1 type
2016-02-24T18:04:27Z attila_lendvai: |3b|: the problem is that it's goveled, and only cffi-libffi uses the goveller
2016-02-24T18:05:05Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: So put it in cffi-libffi?
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2016-02-24T18:05:43Z attila_lendvai: and why not the zillion other C symbols? and why in cffi-libffi?
2016-02-24T18:05:46Z |3b|: hmm, both of those sound a bit annoying too :/
2016-02-24T18:05:59Z |3b|: does it actually vary enough to need grovelled?
2016-02-24T18:06:00Z attila_lendvai: I understand the desire, just dubious about the solution
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2016-02-24T18:06:27Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: If there is enough demand for other symbols, then I would say yes, include those too.
2016-02-24T18:07:06Z |3b|: yeah, if the other symbols are commonly used to define other types, or passed to functions in unrelated libs, might be reasonable to have more
2016-02-24T18:07:14Z LiamH: The idea of a library is to provide common processing. If there are enough uses for it, why make every system redefine it?
2016-02-24T18:08:08Z attila_lendvai: along that reasonin then why shouldn't CFFI do whatever iolib does now?
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2016-02-24T18:09:11Z attila_lendvai: maybe we should open a new asdf system for the definitions of the C stdlib (as opposed to the C standard, i.e. :int and friends)
2016-02-24T18:09:11Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: What is it that iolib defines that is also defined by other systems (that don't already require iolib)?
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2016-02-24T18:09:41Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: from errno, to read, all kinds of definitions
2016-02-24T18:10:16Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: Then I agree, it would be good to have those. Maybe a separate system is the right way to go.
2016-02-24T18:10:26Z |3b|: sure, but other libs don't set errno, or expect you to pass read to a function
2016-02-24T18:10:39Z |3b|: other libs do use size_t to define their types
2016-02-24T18:11:17Z attila_lendvai: I think it's controversial enough to warrant a mail to cffi-devel
2016-02-24T18:12:28Z attila_lendvai: Xach: I'm afraid there won't be a fix in the next hours. maybe I could temporarily reinstate :sizet, with a big fat warning, but then a new CFFI release is needed, or ql needs to switch to master
2016-02-24T18:12:36Z LiamH: Well including :sizet was not controversial as it was in there, so please put it back so GSLL will work.
2016-02-24T18:13:17Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: You are the one who raised the idea of adding other things, so that does merit a discussion.
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2016-02-24T18:13:39Z LiamH: I don't think restoring sizet merits a warning. It's been in there literally for years.
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2016-02-24T18:15:16Z attila_lendvai: that's not an argument. :sizet is an arbitrary name to begin with, and that naming and the use if the keyword package itself warrants a discussion IMO...
2016-02-24T18:15:28Z |3b|: also, i think size_t is defined by the language, not libs,since sizeof() returns it
2016-02-24T18:15:34Z attila_lendvai: I can restore it *and* write a mail, but that still needs ql to switch to master
2016-02-24T18:15:51Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: Fine.
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2016-02-24T18:16:38Z attila_lendvai: size_t comes from 7.17 Common definitions <stddef.h> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2547635/is-size-t-only-in-c-standard-or-c-standard-as-well
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2016-02-24T18:18:55Z Xach_: attila_lendvai: i can switch to master temporarily for testing.
2016-02-24T18:19:22Z attila_lendvai: Xach: ok, I'll reinstate it soon then
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2016-02-24T18:26:16Z attila_lendvai: Xach: I've pushed CFFI, master should work
2016-02-24T18:28:07Z Xach_: attila_lendvai: Now I get "Unknown CFFI type SIZE-T"
2016-02-24T18:28:12Z Xach_: that's in gsll
2016-02-24T18:28:50Z attila_lendvai: damn, it loaded for me. looking...
2016-02-24T18:29:36Z Xach_: I am using the master branch of gsll from https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/antik/gsll.git
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2016-02-24T18:35:23Z attila_lendvai: I thinks it's because I was working from an image, trying with empty sbcl now
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2016-02-24T18:39:24Z attila_lendvai: Xach: try again please
2016-02-24T18:40:58Z Xach_: attila_lendvai: better! how about cl-glu's issue?
2016-02-24T18:41:03Z Xach_: gsll builds fine now
2016-02-24T18:42:23Z attila_lendvai: Xach: hrm, that's another interesting question. it's using :double as base type for the C enum, which is against the C std
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2016-02-24T18:43:28Z attila_lendvai is dialing |3b| :)
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2016-02-24T18:43:59Z attila_lendvai: |3b|: is there a specific reason for using double there? or could it be omitted to use the default base type?
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2016-02-24T18:50:21Z attila_lendvai: hrm, I see the intention there. the c fun uses a double arg, and the valid values are consecutive #define's...
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2016-02-24T18:54:19Z attila_lendvai: |3b|: what do you think about using the new cffi/c2ffi to generate a binding for opengl? and then port the lispy stuff over to that? if you feel like venturing into that I can offer to set up the c2ffi part...
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2016-02-24T18:56:35Z oGMo: i think he generates it from the XML description
2016-02-24T18:57:00Z attila_lendvai: not this part (glu.lisp)
2016-02-24T18:57:09Z oGMo: ah
2016-02-24T18:57:25Z oGMo: glu is also deprecated i think
2016-02-24T18:57:33Z attila_lendvai: I don't know about the others, but this looks hand written
2016-02-24T18:57:33Z moore33: Yup
2016-02-24T18:57:47Z Fare: hi
2016-02-24T18:57:54Z |3b|: attila_lendvai: not sure glu is worth that much effort
2016-02-24T18:58:11Z Fare: who uses glu for what?
2016-02-24T18:58:27Z |3b| uses the tesselator from glu once in a while, but that's about it
2016-02-24T18:58:35Z Fare: isn't it an old rival to opengl?
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2016-02-24T18:58:52Z moore33: Fare: The tessellation and nurbs stuff may still see some use.
2016-02-24T18:58:53Z |3b|: no, the 'gl' in 'glu' is opengl
2016-02-24T18:59:01Z attila_lendvai: |3b|: would you accept a PR that stops using defcenum for #define's?
2016-02-24T18:59:08Z |3b|: 'u' is 'utilties' or something
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2016-02-24T19:00:07Z |3b|: attila_lendvai: i think i'd rather change the function type to a 'double-or-enum' or something that coerces integers to doubles, to avoid breaking any existing code
2016-02-24T19:00:45Z |3b|: though i wouldn't mind seeing something in cffi that acts like defcenum but accepts arbitrary types
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2016-02-24T19:01:33Z attila_lendvai: |3b|: I don't think anything would break if I split the defcenum into a row of defconstants, no?
2016-02-24T19:01:44Z attila_lendvai means alexandria:define-constant
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2016-02-24T19:02:41Z |3b|: attila_lendvai: not sure, does that accept :foo?
2016-02-24T19:02:59Z |3b|: sorry, paying attention to 2 things at once
2016-02-24T19:03:06Z attila_lendvai: defcenum with doubles is basically the question of whether to bring CFFI's behavior closer to the C standard, which would accommodate better for generated bindings, or not.
2016-02-24T19:03:36Z |3b|: code that passes :foo to the function would break if you named the constants anything other than :foo, and :foo is required to have the value :foo
2016-02-24T19:04:15Z |3b|: why would generated bindings care if something that the don't do works or not?
2016-02-24T19:04:21Z attila_lendvai: |3b|: right, I didn't consider that the enum members are renamed compared to the .h and they are even keywords... scratch that idea then... :/
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2016-02-24T19:06:21Z attila_lendvai: |3b|: yep, they wouldn't care in this specific case. but there are other cases where this kind of coexistence is not possible (e.g. the mismatch of the type namespaces of CFFI and C)
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2016-02-24T19:07:12Z attila_lendvai ponders about the pro's and con's of relaxing the defcenum base type constraints
2016-02-24T19:08:20Z |3b|: (not that it gets enum types right anyway, unless someone fixed the bug i filed the other day :)
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2016-02-24T19:08:46Z attila_lendvai: I fixed that already
2016-02-24T19:08:51Z |3b|: cool
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2016-02-24T19:09:42Z pareidolia: I just read that SLIME only exists since 2003. How were people doing their CL coding before then?
2016-02-24T19:10:22Z pjb: pareidolia: you should try to use ed(1) one day to do all your programming.
2016-02-24T19:10:25Z |3b|: if you go far enough back, they had custom hardware for it :)
2016-02-24T19:10:33Z pareidolia: pjb: I tried ed, it was fun
2016-02-24T19:10:45Z |3b|: i think closer to the introduction of slime, there was ilisp or something like that
2016-02-24T19:10:54Z |3b|: or IDEs for various commercial lisps
2016-02-24T19:10:55Z pjb: I used it yesterday to sudo edit some root files in emacs shell.
2016-02-24T19:11:34Z pjb: Yes, and even without ilisp, I had just a C-x C-e implemented over *inferior-lisp* that made my workflow quasi-identical to what I use of slime nowadays.
2016-02-24T19:11:48Z moore33: pareidolia: There was ilisp, which sent everything through the inferior lisp's REPL, if I recall correctly.
2016-02-24T19:11:51Z pareidolia: Ah, forgot the inferior modes
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2016-02-24T19:13:19Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/308148
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2016-02-24T19:17:34Z attila_lendvai: Xach: cl-glu loads for me
2016-02-24T19:17:59Z Xach_: attila_lendvai: after changes to cffi?
2016-02-24T19:18:17Z attila_lendvai: Xach: yes, I've relaxed some checks
2016-02-24T19:18:26Z Xach_: fantastico
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2016-02-24T19:31:10Z attila_lendvai: luis: Xach is testing master for now. he may need a release later for convenience...
2016-02-24T19:31:30Z attila_lendvai always forgets about osicat...
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2016-02-24T19:42:05Z Xach_: hmm, why is the slime release tag "v2.17" where it was just "2.14" before?
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2016-02-24T19:49:19Z pjb: Xach_: chidren grow suddenly.
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2016-02-24T20:00:26Z jasom: hmm c-l.net gitlab won't accept ed25519 keys; I wonder if that's a gitlab or ssh issue.
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2016-02-24T20:03:48Z mood: jasom: "the internet" suggests gitlab should support them just fine
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2016-02-24T22:10:24Z jasom: finally common-lisp.net points to latest parenscript
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