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2016-02-23T00:02:11Z fiddlerwoaroof wonders how many test frameworks there are in Lisp
2016-02-23T00:02:18Z Fade: that guy's office invokes a sense of envy in me.
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2016-02-23T00:19:38Z Fare: fiddlerwoaroof, there's one more everytime someone asks the question
2016-02-23T00:19:43Z Fare: so don't ask too much
2016-02-23T00:20:01Z Fare: that said if you're interested in consolidation...
2016-02-23T00:20:05Z lerax are reading the Land of Lisp book
2016-02-23T00:21:24Z Fare: lerax: how many of you are there?
2016-02-23T00:22:00Z jasom: one ler, two lerax
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2016-02-23T00:28:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Fare: I think there's some sort of unspoken rule that every Lisper must use his own test library, documentation generator and html generator
2016-02-23T00:29:03Z Fare: I'm only 2/3 lisper, then.
2016-02-23T00:29:21Z Fare: who cares about documentation, anyway.
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2016-02-23T00:29:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think it's the "todo list" for html generation libraries
2016-02-23T00:30:03Z Fare: although, wait, I did write exscribe. So, yes, full lisper.
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2016-02-23T00:31:07Z Fare: not a documentation extracter, though, just a better way to write web pages with footnotes.
2016-02-23T00:35:40Z pillton: Fare: I have a use case where I need to run asdf:test-system inside an executable.
2016-02-23T00:35:55Z pillton: Fare: The source code for the dumped image may or may not be present.
2016-02-23T00:36:14Z Fare: probably a bad idea, if deployed to customers
2016-02-23T00:36:20Z pillton: Fare: I am currently doing the following to accommodate the case where the source code is deleted.
2016-02-23T00:36:22Z pillton: Fare: http://paste.lisp.org/display/307971
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2016-02-23T00:36:59Z Fare: unless you're using register-immutable-system
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2016-02-23T00:37:17Z Fare: or it's only used by developers
2016-02-23T00:37:21Z pillton: It isn't a bad idea because the tests confirm that the user hasn't messed with resolving dependencies of shared libraries.
2016-02-23T00:37:41Z Fare: in which case you might still want register-preloaded-system
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2016-02-23T00:37:58Z Fare: shared libraries... maybe you should be using bazel :-)
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2016-02-23T00:38:20Z Fare: except for the most basic libraries, it links everything statically
2016-02-23T00:38:26Z Fare: sbcl only, though
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2016-02-23T00:38:38Z Fare: and dunno how advanced the windows support is
2016-02-23T00:38:38Z pillton: Ah another build tool. Great.
2016-02-23T00:38:43Z Fare: :-)
2016-02-23T00:38:49Z pillton: I don't care about Bazel. What I have is fine.
2016-02-23T00:39:04Z Fare: I got a cffi patch in to statically link libraries, too
2016-02-23T00:39:27Z Fare: but it requires a patch to sbcl that was reverted because it didn't work on all platforms.
2016-02-23T00:39:36Z pillton: Great. I like that idea. It still doesn't solve my problem.
2016-02-23T00:39:45Z Fare: what's the prob?
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2016-02-23T00:40:42Z pillton: The paste I pasted disables the loading of source code. Is this something worth considering in ASDF?
2016-02-23T00:41:07Z fiddlerwoaroof is going to build a library that makes Lisp comments relevant to the program's execution, so he can have the sort of fun in Lisp that he's having in PHP.
2016-02-23T00:41:39Z dreamaddict: ok so I was playing around with lparallel and things are acting strange
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2016-02-23T00:42:30Z dreamaddict: as in, I made some functions in a program defpuns, and now the (time) readout for the program shows much more CPU usage, but twice as long running time and a number of seconds for "total run time" that is WAY off
2016-02-23T00:43:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: dreamaddict: I suspect that it's summing the runtime per core, or something like that.
2016-02-23T00:43:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: would that make sense?
2016-02-23T00:43:16Z dreamaddict: it would
2016-02-23T00:43:36Z dreamaddict: but the part where the program now takes 14 seconds to run, instead of 5, still doesn't make sense :P
2016-02-23T00:44:03Z dreamaddict: unless the explanation is...I don't know what I am doing trying to add multithreading to my code!
2016-02-23T00:44:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is the task too simple for parallelization?
2016-02-23T00:44:21Z dreamaddict: no it can definitely be parallelized, it's an anagram solver
2016-02-23T00:44:41Z dreamaddict: I got an itch to try and add threads to it to make it go faster!!!!
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2016-02-23T00:45:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's probably some way to tell how much time is being spent on messaging, locking and such and how much time is spent actually running.
2016-02-23T00:45:47Z dreamaddict: I'll check that out real quick
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2016-02-23T00:48:24Z Fare: pillton, low-level non-portable MOP hacks are not welcome in ASDF
2016-02-23T00:48:46Z Fare: but with some :around methods and a special variable, you should be able to achieve the same effect portably
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2016-02-23T00:49:20Z pillton: Fare: I'm interested in the goal, not the implementation. There is no point pursing portability if you aren't interested.
2016-02-23T00:49:53Z pillton: s/pursing/pursuing/
2016-02-23T00:49:55Z Fare: so you want to disable operate while inside perform test-op
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2016-02-23T00:50:39Z pillton: I want load-op to not be a dependency of test-op.
2016-02-23T00:51:06Z Fare: no operate inside perform could be a generally desirable invariant. Or not.
2016-02-23T00:51:24Z Fare: load-op is always a dependency of test-op. Isn't it?
2016-02-23T00:51:35Z pillton: It is at the moment, but it doesn't suit my use case.
2016-02-23T00:51:40Z Fare: I mean, how can you test a system that isn't even loaded?
2016-02-23T00:51:49Z pillton: I have dumped an image containing the tests.
2016-02-23T00:51:55Z Fare: in a separate image
2016-02-23T00:51:59Z Fare: OK
2016-02-23T00:52:05Z Fare: welcome to ASDF4
2016-02-23T00:52:45Z dreamaddict: it is definitely thrashing
2016-02-23T00:52:49Z Fare: support for working in multiple images isn't complete in ASDF3, even though all the basics to make it possible are now there.
2016-02-23T00:52:59Z dreamaddict: the more things I make parallel, the more it thrashes :P
2016-02-23T00:53:05Z dreamaddict: it's like the touch of death
2016-02-23T00:53:10Z Fare: except for replacing perform with perform-forms or something.
2016-02-23T00:53:24Z Fare: dreamaddict, resource contention?
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2016-02-23T00:54:02Z dreamaddict: I don't know yet...I've never tried multithreading anything before, this is all a science experiment right now :P
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2016-02-23T01:00:17Z Fare: pillton, if you're interested in making ASDF4 happen, I'm sure everyone will be happy to let you become the new maintainer
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2016-02-23T01:00:31Z Fare: you'll find my notes in the asdf TODO
2016-02-23T01:01:00Z pillton: Fare: I'm not sure how my question lead to this.
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2016-02-23T01:33:55Z dreamaddict: wow, it looks like about 90% of the run time is overhead from the parallelization
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2016-02-23T02:40:37Z drmeister: If I allocate a closure on the stack (dynamic extent) under what conditions can I allocate the cells on the stack as well?
2016-02-23T02:41:20Z Bike: the cells of the closure environment?
2016-02-23T02:41:24Z drmeister: Yes
2016-02-23T02:42:01Z Bike: I don't understand how the cells could be needed outside of the dynamic extent of the closure itself? I mean, unless you're talking about multiple closures with the same environment, I guess
2016-02-23T02:43:36Z drmeister: In situations like (compile 'foo (lambda (a) (funcall (lambda (x) (list a x)) 1)))
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2016-02-23T02:46:57Z Bike: for a? shouldn't the cell's allocation be worked out in the outer lambda?
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2016-02-23T02:57:46Z drmeister: Here's an example where the cells can't be allocated on the stack.
2016-02-23T02:57:47Z drmeister:  (clasp-cleavir:cleavir-compile 'foo '(lambda () (let ((x 1) (y 2)) (values (lambda (xx yy) (setq x xx) (setq y yy)) (lambda () (cleavir-primop:funcall (lambda (z) (list x y z)) 3))))) :debug t)
2016-02-23T03:00:07Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/GTZAgoRT/mir.pdf
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2016-02-23T03:01:27Z drmeister: It looks like since G7434:12 and G7426:14 are inputs for two "enclose" instructions they have to have indefinite extent.
2016-02-23T03:01:39Z Bike: well neither of those functions have dynamic extent.
2016-02-23T03:02:02Z drmeister: Right - that's true.
2016-02-23T03:03:53Z Bike: no, that doesn't really matter, does it. hrm
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2016-02-23T03:05:04Z Bike: but if those functions were used in something and were dynamic-extent then you could allocate the cells on the stack.
2016-02-23T03:05:07Z drmeister: The closure that could be dynamic extent is an inner one.
2016-02-23T03:05:52Z drmeister: It's this one.
2016-02-23T03:05:55Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/uKj8PUw.png
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2016-02-23T03:06:43Z drmeister: I'm confusing myself.
2016-02-23T03:06:46Z Bike: me too
2016-02-23T03:07:12Z drmeister: I have to think really hard about this stuff.
2016-02-23T03:07:49Z drmeister: Hang on - I'll create an example where I'm sure the cells can go on the stack.
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2016-02-23T03:09:10Z drmeister:  (clasp-cleavir:cleavir-compile nil '(lambda () (let ((x 1) (y 2)) (cleavir-primop:funcall (lambda ( z) (list x y z)) 3))) :debug t)
2016-02-23T03:09:31Z drmeister: I'm pretty sure the bindings for X and Y don't need to be on the heap.
2016-02-23T03:09:39Z Bike: they don't even need to be cells, really.
2016-02-23T03:09:59Z drmeister: Do you mean because they are immediates?
2016-02-23T03:10:06Z drmeister: Imagine they are something more complicated.
2016-02-23T03:10:13Z drmeister: If that's what you mean.
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2016-02-23T03:10:39Z Bike: partly. but i suppose that's true.
2016-02-23T03:10:52Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/LGvjDenc/mir.pdf
2016-02-23T03:12:01Z Bike: Every time you call (lambda () ...) it makes a closure that returns the same x and y. if you don't just optimize out the funcall entirely, anyway. so the x and y have to be stored somewhere between calls.
2016-02-23T03:12:27Z Bike: er. no, shit, that doesn't make sense, each call recalculates x and y anyway
2016-02-23T03:13:49Z Bike: (lambda () (funcall (lambda (z) (list 1 2 z)))) or (lambda () (list 1 2 z)) would be equivalent even if 1 and 2 were side effectful complex forms, so yeah the cells can be on the stack. proof by sledgehammer rewrite
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2016-02-23T03:14:18Z drmeister: Cleavir doesn't optimize this stuff out.  So I'm looking into putting the closure created by this enclose on the stack.
2016-02-23T03:14:19Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/6n5IcQQ.png
2016-02-23T03:14:46Z Bike: i know, i'm just thinking ab out it.
2016-02-23T03:15:52Z Bike: i think it's basically just that the cells can be dynamic extent if every closure they're in is dynamic-extent, still.
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2016-02-23T03:18:06Z drmeister: Yeah - I see what you mean.
2016-02-23T03:18:25Z drmeister: I think this is a better example of what I've been worried about.
2016-02-23T03:19:03Z drmeister: (clasp-cleavir:cleavir-compile 'foo '(lambda () (let ((x 1) (y 2)) #'(lambda () (cleavir-primop:funcall (lambda ( z) (list x y z)) 3)))) :debug t)
2016-02-23T03:19:35Z Bike: ok, dynamic extent in the same extent.
2016-02-23T03:19:39Z Bike: which is confusing.
2016-02-23T03:19:51Z drmeister: Calling (foo) returns a closure - but the cells for x and y are bound in the (foo) call, not each time the closure is called.
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2016-02-23T03:20:53Z Bike: because the inner lambda escapes the dynamic extent of the bindings... yes.
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2016-02-23T03:22:42Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/GnaAmj6z/foo.pdf
2016-02-23T03:23:26Z drmeister: The "enclose" that the red arrow points to is the one that I can make dynamic extent.
2016-02-23T03:23:58Z Bike: Which is the inner, (lambda (z) ...)?
2016-02-23T03:24:12Z Bike: Because that would be dynamic extent in the wrong extent.
2016-02-23T03:24:49Z drmeister: The inner one is the one created by (cleavir-primop:funcall (lambda (z) (list x y z)) 3)
2016-02-23T03:25:13Z Bike: yeah. is that the one you're saying you can dynamicextentify?
2016-02-23T03:25:20Z drmeister: What do you mean: "that would be dynamic extent in the wrong extent"?
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2016-02-23T03:25:37Z drmeister: Yes, I believe that I can dynamic extentify it.  Because that closure cannot escape.
2016-02-23T03:26:01Z drmeister: Its only purpose is to be funcall'd
2016-02-23T03:26:01Z Bike: It can't escape from the #'(lambda () ...) closure, which has already escaped from the dynamic extent of the let, is what i mean, see?
2016-02-23T03:26:33Z drmeister: Yes, I see that.
2016-02-23T03:26:52Z Bike: and that escape is why you can't put the x and y bindings on the stack.
2016-02-23T03:27:10Z drmeister: Here's my current problem.  Everytime I call the #'(lambda () ...) closure another closure is consed.
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2016-02-23T03:27:25Z drmeister: (defparameter *foo* (foo))
2016-02-23T03:27:45Z drmeister: (funcall *foo* 1) <--- memory consed each time I do this.
2016-02-23T03:28:00Z Bike: i think that might be inevitable, if you don't just collapse (funcall (lambda ...)) instead.
2016-02-23T03:28:19Z Bike: depending on how closures work.
2016-02-23T03:28:44Z Bike: the bindings there have to be on the heap. if associating existing bindings with a body to make a closure is an allocation, well, no luck
2016-02-23T03:30:01Z drmeister: Well, I could do this.   I could alloca space on the stack for three slots, pointers to the two cells G8376:36 and G8371:39 and the function pointer to named-enter(LAMBDA):48  - and then replace the circled "enclose" instruction with an instruction that initialized those three stack slots and passed this stack allocated closure to funcall.
2016-02-23T03:30:23Z Bike: you could.
2016-02-23T03:31:06Z drmeister: The bindings will still be on the heap - they were created in the outer function (foo) by Create cell:11 and create cell:13
2016-02-23T03:31:40Z Bike: rite
2016-02-23T03:32:41Z drmeister: What's the alternative?   To sort of "inline" the named-enter(LAMBDA):48 function where the circled "enclose" and funcall:45 are - isn't it?
2016-02-23T03:33:57Z drmeister: That's like what we were talking about a few days ago wasn't it?
2016-02-23T03:34:01Z Bike: the two choices for optimization i see are the stack thing you just said, and just inlining the lambda to get whatever #'(lambda () (list x y z)) compiles to.
2016-02-23T03:34:18Z Bike: er, #'(lambda () (list x y 3)).
2016-02-23T03:36:03Z drmeister: Right, except the lambda-list can have &optional, &rest, &key and &aux - the inlining would have have to handle those.
2016-02-23T03:36:43Z Bike: yeah, sure. i'd like to work on that but i have other things to do unfortunately.
2016-02-23T03:38:55Z drmeister: I think it's relatively easy to add dynamic extent closures and recognize when they can safely be used.  When cleavir can do the inlining it will gracefully bypass it.
2016-02-23T03:39:52Z drmeister: dynamic extent closures will also be useful for call-with-variable-bound for special variables and cleavir will probably never inline those.
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2016-02-23T03:41:03Z Bike: sure.
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2016-02-23T03:50:00Z _z: Do you guys know of any tool that goes through a program step by step until it's finished, show what values it changes, stores etc? Having a hard time understanding https://pastee.org/hv9vd
2016-02-23T03:50:16Z _z: I use sbcl
2016-02-23T03:50:39Z _z: With slime in emacs.
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2016-02-23T03:58:03Z drmeister: _z: Not for something like that.
2016-02-23T03:58:23Z drmeister: Read it from the inside out.
2016-02-23T03:58:38Z pillton: _z: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-simple-database.html
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2016-02-23T03:59:58Z pillton: _z: It isn't the answer to your question, but it might provide you with an answer.
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2016-02-23T04:00:39Z _z: Reading it, thanks.
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2016-02-23T04:09:11Z |3b|: _z: sbcl can do a bit of that with slime, if you compile with full debug settings. there are also some separate libraries implementing it. you might also find TRACE useful, it just shows the arguments and return values every time the traced function is called, but that is usually enough for simple functions like that
2016-02-23T04:10:14Z |3b|: (just keep in mind you aren't allowed to TRACE functions defined by CL itself, since they might have been used to implement TRACE in which case you have a problem)
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2016-02-23T04:10:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-02-23T04:12:08Z _z: |3b|, trace isnt really that detailed, its simply showing me the values getting bound to vars, and the output returned.
2016-02-23T04:12:45Z |3b|: right, but sometimes that is good enough :)
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2016-02-23T04:13:21Z Fade: you might look into slime-trace-dialog
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2016-02-23T04:22:59Z beach: drmeister: [I am reading the logs] Escape analysis is tricky business.  I advise against attempting some temporary kludge like I did with REMOVE-USELESS-VARIABLES.  What is needed is a complete dataflow analysis.
2016-02-23T04:23:01Z beach: Unfortunately, in the literature, they assume simple languages such as C with no nested functions, so there is research to be done.  If you are willing to help me with the research, that's great, but it shall have to wait until after I finish my ELS papers.
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2016-02-23T04:34:07Z drmeister: beach: Hi - I understand.  I'm looking at the trivial case of (funcall (lambda (...) ...) ...)
2016-02-23T04:35:04Z beach: ... which may contain captured variables that can escape.
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2016-02-23T04:35:44Z _z: Is my logic right? https://pastee.org/mucd6 or am I misunderstanding something
2016-02-23T04:36:05Z beach: drmeister: And what about (let ((f (lambda (...) ...))) (funcall f ...))?
2016-02-23T04:37:21Z beach: _z: Why are you attempting to rewrite the Common Lisp intersection function?
2016-02-23T04:37:31Z drmeister: We were talking about this a couple of days ago.  I thought if an enclose instruction has a single output and it feeds into the first input of a MVC or FUNCALL that the closure could be allocated on the stack.
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2016-02-23T04:37:59Z beach: drmeister: But now you are asking about the cells.
2016-02-23T04:38:09Z _z: beach: It was an exercise from a book, to write my version of intersection.
2016-02-23T04:38:17Z _z: err, It is*
2016-02-23T04:38:57Z drmeister: Right - but I see now that it is best if I leave them to Cleavir.
2016-02-23T04:39:27Z beach: drmeister: You can attempt it if you want, but I am just telling you that it is VERY HARD STUFF.
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2016-02-23T04:39:44Z beach: So be prepared for some research in compiler design.
2016-02-23T04:40:12Z |3b|: _z: you might name the function you pass to remove-if-not and TRACE that
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2016-02-23T04:40:42Z |3b|: _z: you might name the function you pass to remove-if-not and TRACE that
2016-02-23T04:41:08Z _z: Hm, alright.
2016-02-23T04:41:22Z |3b|: and/or reread how remove-if-not works
2016-02-23T04:41:41Z |3b|: clhs remove-if-not
2016-02-23T04:41:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm
2016-02-23T04:41:46Z _z: It removes items that dont satisfy the predicate?
2016-02-23T04:42:09Z |3b|: ^ is the official specification of the function, but whatever text you are reading might have an easier to understand description
2016-02-23T04:42:33Z |3b|: that is the overall goal
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2016-02-23T04:44:39Z _z: Sorry about that, dhcp is misbehaving lol
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2016-02-23T04:46:18Z beach: _z: In this case, think of MEMBER as a predicate that returns TRUE or FALSE.
2016-02-23T04:46:41Z beach: _z: (A) and (S R A) are both TRUE.
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2016-02-23T04:50:26Z beach: _z: So, first your function checks whether A is in list-1.  That call returns (A) which is true, so REMOVE-IF-NOT keeps the A.  Then it checks whether S is in list-1.  That call returns (S R A) which is also true, so REMOVE-IF-NOT keeps the S as well.  For all the other calls to the predicate, it returns false, so no other elements are kept.
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2016-02-23T04:51:40Z _z: Ah!
2016-02-23T04:51:58Z _z: I get it now, thanks beach.
2016-02-23T04:52:11Z beach: Anytime.
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2016-02-23T05:03:57Z drmeister: beach: Got it
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2016-02-23T06:38:31Z jackdaniel: alandipert: to build a static library from *within* the ECL, you have to provide :type :lib to asdf:make-build
2016-02-23T06:39:03Z jackdaniel: (or :type :static-library, there is no difference)
2016-02-23T06:39:23Z jackdaniel: alandipert: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/manual/ch26.html#table.make-build and https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/manual/re55.html
2016-02-23T06:39:38Z jackdaniel: good morning all :-)
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2016-02-23T06:50:44Z beach: Good morning to you, jackdaniel.
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2016-02-23T07:23:25Z marsjaninzmarsa: hi all
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2016-02-23T07:35:54Z jackdaniel: o/
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2016-02-23T07:54:31Z dreamaddict: has anyone used lparallel?
2016-02-23T07:55:51Z jackdaniel 
2016-02-23T07:56:48Z dreamaddict: for some reason this is not an acceptable entry in a ptree:  (string-constant () "this is a string constant")
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2016-02-23T07:57:25Z dreamaddict: it wants something of type LIST, even though I saw something similar in the tutorial code (a non-list element being returned with the same form)
2016-02-23T07:58:24Z jackdaniel: could you past the code snipped with the actual error condition?
2016-02-23T07:58:57Z dreamaddict: sure...if you really want (it's kind of a pile of crap right now)
2016-02-23T07:59:36Z jackdaniel: more *minimal* it is, the better :)
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2016-02-23T08:00:25Z jackdaniel: this works for me > (ptree ((str () "hi")) str)
2016-02-23T08:00:46Z jackdaniel: (with a result: "hi")
2016-02-23T08:00:54Z dreamaddict: http://paste.lisp.org/display/308012
2016-02-23T08:01:05Z dreamaddict: that's the whole enchilada, at the bottom is the ptree I am trying to make out of it
2016-02-23T08:01:19Z dreamaddict: the actual program is supposed to be invoked by (find-phrases *wordlist*)
2016-02-23T08:01:35Z dreamaddict: and at the bottom, it is complaining about the (phrase) entry in the ptree
2016-02-23T08:01:59Z jackdaniel: and the error message? (copy-paste the condition, it is better then description of it)
2016-02-23T08:02:50Z dreamaddict: oh wait I think I see it
2016-02-23T08:02:56Z dreamaddict: it's me :P
2016-02-23T08:03:54Z jackdaniel: so the problem is solved now? great (:
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2016-02-23T08:04:51Z dreamaddict: yeah, for now at least
2016-02-23T08:05:03Z dreamaddict: :P
2016-02-23T08:06:41Z dreamaddict: ok well, either this algorithm isn't easily parallelizable or I don't understand this (probably the second)
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2016-02-23T08:21:18Z parmegv: hey guys! While I was learning lisp in college, I was forced to use only "declarative" functions and macros, so I was not able to use *let*, *setf*, *dotimes*, *loop*...
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2016-02-23T08:22:17Z parmegv: now that I search an implementation of the modular multiplicative inverse, I see people make use of all those functions and macros
2016-02-23T08:22:55Z Zhivago: What's non-declarative about let?
2016-02-23T08:23:21Z parmegv: it is imperative
2016-02-23T08:23:23Z parmegv: isn't it?
2016-02-23T08:23:48Z parmegv: I was wondering... do they because it's more efficient? does that mean they don't trust the compiler to generate the best code from the "functional" approach?
2016-02-23T08:24:10Z jackdaniel: parmegv: let isn't imperative
2016-02-23T08:24:58Z parmegv: jackdaniel: I guess they wanted us to think about recursion only
2016-02-23T08:25:03Z jackdaniel: using side-effects is a common practice among common lisp programmers (they don't praise FP as much as for instance schemers do)
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2016-02-23T08:25:26Z parmegv: ah, yes, my teachers didn't like we produced side-effects
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2016-02-23T08:26:00Z parmegv: is there any performance advantage on using them?
2016-02-23T08:26:20Z jackdaniel: scheme is another dialect of lisp which puts emphasis on avoiding side effects where possible
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2016-02-23T08:26:54Z jackdaniel: it depends on the compiler. It's easier to write code with side-effects, while it's easier to debug and maintain functional code (that's only my opinion obviously)
2016-02-23T08:27:46Z dreamaddict: I found it a valuable exercise to try and think functionally, even if "regular" code might be easier
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2016-02-23T08:28:28Z parmegv: I really like the elegance of functional code. I thought established CL compilers such as sbcl would produce very good machine code from functional code, but now that I see math libraries using side effects, I am not that sure
2016-02-23T08:28:37Z aeth: One advantage to side effects is if you're copying some concept designed for a language with side effects. Sometimes it's easy to do it functionally, sometimes it's very hard.
2016-02-23T08:28:46Z aeth: Especially certain math algorithm stuff.
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2016-02-23T08:29:20Z parmegv: yeah, ok, so it is mainly about difficulty in coding
2016-02-23T08:29:36Z aeth: Also, I don't think the compiler is smart enough for certain things that would be lists in functional style vs. just setting to fixed-sized vectors.
2016-02-23T08:29:44Z aeth: So there might be some performance advantages for certain algorithms
2016-02-23T08:30:44Z parmegv: hmm, that sounds like an interesting research topic. Maybe there are papers about that
2016-02-23T08:30:52Z parmegv: I didn't know there were conferences about lisp!!
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2016-02-23T08:32:00Z loke: A lot of beginners to Lisp tend to think they have to do stuff functionally and they end up doing stuff such as writing loops uing recuresion, which is a bad idea.
2016-02-23T08:32:08Z loke: "using recursion"
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2016-02-23T08:34:15Z aeth: An area where side effects will probably happen all the time in Lisp is if you're making a game in Lisp.
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2016-02-23T08:35:14Z parmegv: loke: why is it a bad idea? you mean it's better to use *do* instead of "iterating" through the list recursively with *cdr*?
2016-02-23T08:36:01Z dreamaddict: the stack, recursion puts a load on the stack
2016-02-23T08:36:07Z jackdaniel: it's matter of a compiler and a personal preference
2016-02-23T08:36:15Z dreamaddict: unless it's a tail-recursion, in which case it's like, already a loop
2016-02-23T08:36:19Z loke: parmegv: No, that doesn't matter. I preferring to using recusrion instead of any of the existing looping constructs (LOOP, DO, etc...)
2016-02-23T08:36:49Z loke: dreamaddict: You can't assume tail-recursion will be optimised into loops. And in many cases it's difficult to determine if something is a tail-call
2016-02-23T08:37:00Z aeth: parmegv: Go to Project Euler and solve some problems there in both styles, one with a loop and one with recursion. The numbers are large enough that you might see some differences.
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2016-02-23T08:38:44Z parmegv: dreamaddict: mm, I guess I don't really understand what https://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2016/02/22/it-is-what-it-is-and-nothing-else/ says about that
2016-02-23T08:39:00Z parmegv: aeth: loke then, what do you mean?
2016-02-23T08:39:18Z loke: parmegv: That's a terrible article. I read it when it was quited on HN
2016-02-23T08:39:22Z loke: quoted
2016-02-23T08:39:36Z parmegv: I read it yesterday as well, from HN
2016-02-23T08:39:37Z loke: parmegv: Do you know what recursion is?
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2016-02-23T08:41:08Z parmegv: loke: is it different from what existentialtype said? I understood it similarly
2016-02-23T08:41:45Z loke: parmegv: In a language like Haskell, if you want to write a program to print the numbers 1 to 10, you have to use a recursive function.
2016-02-23T08:42:05Z loke: People coming to Lisp often think that's the right thing to do in Lisp. It's not. It's a terrible idea.
2016-02-23T08:42:16Z parmegv: loke: why?
2016-02-23T08:42:39Z loke: parmegv: Many reasons. The main one is that tail calls are (guaranteed to be) unrolled.
2016-02-23T08:42:47Z loke: So you will blow the stack
2016-02-23T08:43:01Z loke: are NOT unrolled
2016-02-23T08:44:03Z parmegv: aeth: I decided to use lisp precisely because of big numbers. I coded shamir's secret sharing scheme in python, and I found a bug in numpy.polyval which made it overflow with big numbers. So I recalled in lisp the numbers are of arbitrary precision, and decided to switch
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2016-02-23T08:44:50Z loke: parmegv: Not arbitrary precision. It's a bit more complicated. Integers and fractional numbers are unbounded, yes. But floating point is not.
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2016-02-23T08:45:01Z loke: There is no decimal type, but it can be emualted using fractions.
2016-02-23T08:45:07Z dreamaddict: weird, I do Lisp because I like the taste
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2016-02-23T08:45:51Z parmegv: dreamaddict: I like the taste too, but to use it at work you need to justify getting away of mainstream (i.e. python for crypto prototyping)
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2016-02-23T08:46:44Z dreamaddict: once some smart guy makes a good tree shaker for open-source CL, no one will need to justify using Lisp at work :)
2016-02-23T08:46:59Z parmegv: hahaha
2016-02-23T08:47:24Z loke: dreamaddict: Why do you think that?
2016-02-23T08:47:43Z aeth: parmegv: If you want fast numerical code and you know that the numbers are going to be small integers, you can make sure that Lisp (or at least something very optimizing like SBCL) knows they're fixnums. The problem is that the greatest fixnum is different in every implementation.
2016-02-23T08:47:49Z aeth: So Common Lisp does have its issues with numbers, too.
2016-02-23T08:47:51Z dreamaddict: it's one of the things that "everyone" mentions when they criticize Lisp
2016-02-23T08:48:16Z loke: dreamaddict: I've only heard people who don't actually know Lisp say that.
2016-02-23T08:48:27Z dreamaddict: right
2016-02-23T08:48:48Z ralt: loke: I know Lisp and I say it too
2016-02-23T08:49:07Z ralt: shipping 60MB packages is brainless.
2016-02-23T08:49:12Z parmegv: say what, exactly? I got lost hahaha
2016-02-23T08:49:12Z dreamaddict: if Lisp could spit out .exe files the same as any other language instead of a bunch of whatever you have to deal with to move a piece of code
2016-02-23T08:49:13Z loke: Besides, how many new projects (say, a decade or so) can you mention that is about distributing precompiled (smallish) binaries to people's computers?
2016-02-23T08:49:29Z dreamaddict: it's just one of those things that turn off loud morons to the language
2016-02-23T08:49:32Z aeth: I'm doing Lisp game stuff right now, so as long as the executable is < 1 GB, I think no one will notice because it's a game. :p
2016-02-23T08:49:36Z dreamaddict: I'm speaking as a moron, myself
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2016-02-23T08:49:48Z loke: dreamaddict: What do you mean "any other language"? You mean C and C++ and possibly Go? I can't think of any other languages tha spit out binaries that way.
2016-02-23T08:50:33Z loke: Java, Pythin, Ruby, PHP, R, Javascript, Clojure, Haskell, Erlang, etc... All popilar languages. None of them generating EXE's
2016-02-23T08:50:34Z dreamaddict: c# still makes binaries
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2016-02-23T08:51:08Z parmegv: loke: do you know of any reference (blog post, paper, book, whatever) where I can read about haskell and common lisp, numerical code, functional programming and loops?
2016-02-23T08:51:39Z dreamaddict: all I'm saying is, even though technically a Lisp runtime is smaller than Java, people think it's silly that you have to include everything with a Lisp program
2016-02-23T08:51:44Z ralt: parmegv: that's a lot to read about :)
2016-02-23T08:51:44Z dreamaddict: it doesn't make sense but there it is
2016-02-23T08:53:17Z parmegv: ralt: yeah, I had that feeling too hahaha
2016-02-23T08:54:20Z dreamaddict: hey, I saw a page of a guy working on an all-Lisp OS, 3L
2016-02-23T08:54:23Z dreamaddict: is that still going on?
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2016-02-23T09:00:18Z loke: dreamaddict: There have been multiple such projects.
2016-02-23T09:01:41Z aeth: The one I know about is this: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano
2016-02-23T09:01:54Z aeth: So I'm guessing there are at least 6 projects like this
2016-02-23T09:02:29Z loke: Probably.
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2016-02-23T09:05:14Z aeth: The good news is that graphics will be easier now. All a Lisp OS needs is to support one card and write a Vulkan driver for it. And if it can somehow run cl-vulkan or provide an API-identical equivalent for cl-vulkan that uses Lisp to implement a Vulkan-equivalent, then every Lisp application written for cl-vulkan could run on it.
2016-02-23T09:05:43Z aeth: Then all that would be left is a window system.
2016-02-23T09:06:30Z dreamaddict: what is Vulkan?
2016-02-23T09:06:36Z aeth: And with PCI-passthrough virtualization you can actually run a real graphics card while keeping the Lisp OS in a VM.
2016-02-23T09:06:43Z Shinmera: I always cringe when people describe non-trivial, large tasks with "all one needs to do" or "simply".
2016-02-23T09:07:28Z aeth: dreamaddict: Vulkan is a new cross-platform graphics API that's considerably easier to write a driver for than OpenGL, but considerably harder to write code for. The idea is that eventually libraries will fill in the gaps.
2016-02-23T09:07:32Z _z: were lisp machines really as amazing as people describe them to be or is it simple nostalgia & hype?
2016-02-23T09:07:34Z jackdaniel: it simply requires a dedicated programmer ;-)
2016-02-23T09:07:46Z aeth: So "all one needs to do is write an OpenGL driver" = insane. "all one needs to do is write a Vulkan driver" = possible.
2016-02-23T09:08:09Z aeth: The problem is no cl-vulkan applications exist yet because cl-vulkan isn't ready yet :p
2016-02-23T09:08:26Z Shinmera: Vulkan itself is hardly ready
2016-02-23T09:08:57Z dreamaddict: something about Lisp makes the solutions to these problems seem more...permanent, somehow
2016-02-23T09:10:02Z Bike: _z: they seemed to be pretty good, but not magical. lots of nostalgia filtering, too
2016-02-23T09:10:41Z aeth: _z: They were relatively high end hardware so compared to some contemporary alternatives they were good afaik.
2016-02-23T09:11:19Z dreamaddict: I've heard legends about the IDE
2016-02-23T09:11:37Z Bike: see, legends. not a good sign.
2016-02-23T09:11:42Z aeth: Iirc, the problem to Lisp Machines is Moore's law, in the very literal Intel way. Have some nice architecture and eventually Intel will be faster than it.
2016-02-23T09:11:47Z dreamaddict: good legends though
2016-02-23T09:12:04Z Bike: there are manuals and stuff around, you can llook at them if you want some more informed ideas. but it's not that important.
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2016-02-23T09:14:31Z lieven: there are a few videos on youtube of people demoing them
2016-02-23T09:15:23Z lieven: the main point that would be hard to replicate is that the whole software stack was in lisp and so debugable and discoverable
2016-02-23T09:15:49Z lieven: but they were single user and had almost no concept of security or of process separation
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2016-02-23T09:16:07Z Shinmera: It's also hard to compare because the rest of the world has advanced a lot since then.
2016-02-23T09:16:30Z lieven: Shinmera: indeed
2016-02-23T09:16:54Z dreamaddict: lack of security and pricetag seem to have been two stumbling blocks
2016-02-23T09:17:13Z aeth: Even if you made a modern LispOS, it would probably be very hard to get enough drivers to be useful.
2016-02-23T09:17:28Z aeth: Or enough software to be useful.
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2016-02-23T09:17:40Z lieven: as said above, pick a vm technology and target that
2016-02-23T09:17:43Z dreamaddict: you'd have to make it backwards compatible with...everything
2016-02-23T09:17:50Z lieven: software is the major problem
2016-02-23T09:17:56Z Shinmera: Well, you won't be replacing Windows of course, but it can still be useful for niche tasks such as research, hardware tinkering, etc.
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2016-02-23T09:18:36Z aeth: The larger quicklisp is (or at least the packages without C/C++ dependencies), the more useful a LispOS would be. In a VM.
2016-02-23T09:19:21Z Shinmera: Or: find a way to run C code
2016-02-23T09:19:28Z aeth: Arguably, it wouldn't be a true Lisp machine because it would probably be running on x86_64, ARM, etc.
2016-02-23T09:19:56Z aeth: Shinmera: Yes, if C can be run acceptably, then packages with C and C++ dependencies can be included.
2016-02-23T09:19:58Z Bike: that would be a pretty stupid argument to have
2016-02-23T09:20:20Z lieven: lispms had a C compiler that could compile X11 for example. one of the standard examples in ANSI C discussions was the lispm NULL pointer which was (cons nil nil).
2016-02-23T09:20:21Z aeth: You'd probably have to port gcc and/or llvm somehow, though. I doubt C programs are *really* portable these days.
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2016-02-23T09:20:59Z H4ns: i'd argue that a "lisp machine" would need to use lisp as the system programming language, no matter what other languages can run on top of it or whether the cpu would be useful for other languages.
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2016-02-23T09:23:00Z Bike: c programs are probably more portable than they were. gcc and llvm can warn on UB, you know?
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2016-02-23T09:24:22Z Fare: yes, except that in 2016, the system programming language better have linear types like Rust does.
2016-02-23T09:24:47Z H4ns: Fare: right.  it might not be insane to not want a lisp machine in the first place.
2016-02-23T09:24:49Z Fare: or the dynamic equivalent (e.g. one-bit reference counter)
2016-02-23T09:25:00Z H4ns: Fare: but there are good other places to lobby for that :D
2016-02-23T09:25:29Z Fare: no, I want a lisp. Just one with linear types, just like hbaker suggested in 1991
2016-02-23T09:25:29Z dreamaddict: what would you get if the machine was in all Lisp?
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2016-02-23T09:26:02Z dreamaddict: like, if I were selling a Lisp OS to a moron, what would sell it...
2016-02-23T09:26:15Z Fare: dreamaddict: see my take on http://ngnghm.github.io/
2016-02-23T09:26:34Z H4ns: dreamaddict: i don't talk to morons, and i don't sell :)
2016-02-23T09:26:42Z Fare: not an OS, a platform.
2016-02-23T09:26:43Z aeth: dreamaddict: once someone writes a virtualization program in Common Lisp, you'd be able to run the Lisp OS in SLIME... which could have some use
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2016-02-23T09:27:37Z dreamaddict: yeah but it would be morons buying it and working with it
2016-02-23T09:28:02Z dreamaddict: one thing I've learned from my friend who codes for a living, there are a lot of monkeys with typewriters
2016-02-23T09:28:06Z Shinmera: The point of a lispos is never to replace windows.
2016-02-23T09:28:13Z aeth: What you'd probably want to do is niche target servers, since the OS probably wouldn't even run on real hardware at first.
2016-02-23T09:28:19Z dreamaddict: I would think the point is to be ultimately flexible
2016-02-23T09:28:20Z lieven: to borrow a phrase from another community, if you want to avoid success at all costs, morons are irrelevant
2016-02-23T09:28:25Z aeth: So a Lisp OS would run... Lisp server applications.
2016-02-23T09:28:39Z dreamaddict: to be able to take advantage of everything that you could do with a hypothetically super-flexible OS
2016-02-23T09:28:43Z Shinmera: lieven: Depends on your success goal, really.
2016-02-23T09:28:43Z dim: nowadays you could target xen/kvm/lxc with a lisp os that runs in a linux vm/container, so that you don't have to deal with drivers and all the hardware specifics
2016-02-23T09:28:53Z dim: ala Erlang on Xen
2016-02-23T09:29:11Z aeth: I'd assume a Lisp OS would do being a Lisp app server better than a non-Lisp OS. There could be some optimizations made, I guess.
2016-02-23T09:29:15Z dreamaddict: are there any languages with concepts that cannot be described in any way in Lisp?
2016-02-23T09:29:34Z dreamaddict: or can every language translate into Lisp
2016-02-23T09:29:42Z _z: You can have a pretty lispy environment with an emacs setup and stumpwm
2016-02-23T09:29:50Z H4ns: the point of a lisp os would be that one person would be able to control the whole machine and not be stopped at abstraction layers that require switching of language and debugging environments.
2016-02-23T09:29:54Z _z: But im not sure i see the point of an actual lisp machine
2016-02-23T09:30:04Z _z: though im a noob.
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2016-02-23T09:30:27Z aeth: _z: Emacs requires GCC so an actual Lisp machine would probably require an emacs clone written in CL, and a lot of extra, duplicated work to get to a Lispy environment.
2016-02-23T09:30:46Z aeth: Also, stumpwm I think uses clx, directly to X, so if your Lisp OS uses its own window system, that's a near-complete rewrite of stumpwm, if not a replacement.
2016-02-23T09:30:48Z jackdaniel: dreamaddict: define lisp. if you mean Common Lisp, then for instance you can't translate continuations to it (as a first class citizen, you may of course emulate them)
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2016-02-23T09:31:01Z lieven: dreamaddict: in a Turin pit sense anything can be done in Lisp, but some stuff is not really obvious
2016-02-23T09:31:01Z dreamaddict: I suppose CL
2016-02-23T09:31:39Z jackdaniel: you may write specific machine emulator in CL and run any language on that emulated machine, so everything may be translated in that sense ;)
2016-02-23T09:31:41Z igam: aeth: but imagine what lisp machines would be today if they have been kept alive and they could have benefited from Moore law too!
2016-02-23T09:31:45Z dreamaddict: I suppose I meant the Turing pit sense, as in Lisp can express things that other languages cannot, but other languages don't really do anything that Lisp can't express
2016-02-23T09:31:54Z lieven: dreamaddict: for instance, some people want more from the type system than it can deliver. Marrying a lisp with a more advanced type system as Fare proposes would be an interesting design problem
2016-02-23T09:32:04Z dreamaddict: isn't that Shen?
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2016-02-23T09:32:05Z Zhivago: What you need to consider is really "what are the benefits of a lisp OS over running lisp in a virtual machine, such as a posix process?"
2016-02-23T09:32:16Z lieven: dreamaddict: yeah Shen is one attempt
2016-02-23T09:32:27Z H4ns: Zhivago: if i want to write a device driver, i cannot do it in lisp.
2016-02-23T09:32:44Z dreamaddict: I would guess that the upside of Lisp is that it can be a "universal translator"
2016-02-23T09:32:46Z aeth: igam: But Intel benefits the most from Moore's law, at least for now. They have the resources to exploit the trend the most.
2016-02-23T09:32:50Z Zhivago: Actually, that's generally not true -- many systems support user-space device drivers.
2016-02-23T09:32:52Z H4ns: Zhivago: i need to use the abstractions that the layers between me and the hardware provide, which i am free to not like.
2016-02-23T09:32:57Z aeth: Fortunately, Intel is starting to hit some serious slow downs so maybe we'll see some competition to Intel.
2016-02-23T09:33:10Z Zhivago: But if writing device drivers is your goal, I can see that you might have a point.
2016-02-23T09:33:24Z Zhivago: Do you want a lisp OS in order to be able to write device drivers?
2016-02-23T09:33:42Z H4ns: Zhivago: it is not a goal, it is just something that i sometimes need to do when i work on one-person-and-a-machine projects.
2016-02-23T09:34:11Z Zhivago: Any other benefits? :)
2016-02-23T09:34:16Z H4ns: Zhivago: nope.
2016-02-23T09:34:21Z Zhivago: Fair enough.
2016-02-23T09:34:28Z H4ns: Zhivago: it is just about me.  not about reason. :)
2016-02-23T09:34:52Z igam: _z: I think the best way to understand lisp machines vs. the rest, is to try out M-. in slime.  Of course, you can M-. one of your own functions and it will sound natural to jump to your own source.  But you can also M-. a CL function (such as CAR) and jump to the source of the implementation! Where you can edit it, C-x C-e and have the modified implementation going on!  And on Lisp Machines, you could M-. a kernel function (say,
2016-02-23T09:34:52Z igam: open(1)), and do the same inside the kernel!
2016-02-23T09:35:14Z aeth: Zhivago: A Lisp OS could have better architecture because it can learn from the mistakes of Unix, which could make it faster at some things with a nicer implementation.
2016-02-23T09:35:38Z igam: Of course, you didn't have to deal with fucking code signing and fucking deployment certificates, you could program whatever you wanted on your hardware from the bottom up.
2016-02-23T09:35:39Z aeth: e.g. a REPL shell would probably be faster/better than a Unix sh because wow shell scripting is a horrible language by modern standards.
2016-02-23T09:35:49Z aeth: And shell is quite slow iirc
2016-02-23T09:36:10Z Zhivago: aeth: You can write a REPL in a process.
2016-02-23T09:36:39Z aeth: Zhivago: Right but if you replace component by component with something marginally better than the traditional Unix component, at what point do you get a Lisp OS that's better than Unix?
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2016-02-23T09:37:12Z aeth: Of course this'd take at least 15 years and/or cost a lot of money.
2016-02-23T09:37:46Z _z: igam: thanks for that perspective
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2016-02-23T09:37:56Z lieven: as in the good old Suns boot fast rant, the single address space was important for a lot of the lispm ease of use
2016-02-23T09:38:20Z lieven: so writing a REPL for each component misses the point
2016-02-23T09:38:36Z igam: A little, yes.
2016-02-23T09:39:27Z lieven: _z: if you haven't read The Unix Haters Handbook, it contains a lot of funny gripes of exiled lisp machine users
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2016-02-23T09:39:58Z _z: much to read, little time *sigh*
2016-02-23T09:40:01Z _z: Ill check it out
2016-02-23T09:40:12Z lieven: it's not that important
2016-02-23T09:41:08Z lieven: it was more a joke project. the book came with a paper barf bag enclosed.
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2016-02-23T09:46:42Z dreamaddict: whoever wrote this blog on alien operating systems, I am digging it
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2016-02-23T09:48:04Z Shinmera: That would be Fare, if you're talking about ngnghm
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2016-02-23T09:48:28Z dreamaddict: I am
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2016-02-23T09:51:56Z Fare: there's a video of my presenting it at LispNYC: https://vimeo.com/155517248
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2016-02-23T09:55:25Z _z: I'm reading chapter 1 on your site Fare.
2016-02-23T09:55:35Z _z: I'm very confused but interested
2016-02-23T09:55:51Z splittist_: Fare: your co-presenter is great!
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2016-02-23T10:02:07Z dreamaddict: easier to understand it seems, if you think of "computer" as a sort of substance, and a computer as a piece of that substance
2016-02-23T10:03:09Z dreamaddict: designing the "OS" around the qualities of the substance, instead of as a piece of software that imitates/emulates qualities that we think computer should have
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2016-02-23T10:18:26Z igam: _z: to gain some perspective on what OSes could be, you could have a look at Oberon (for the UI part), and foremost at EROS http://www.eros-os.org/
2016-02-23T10:19:25Z igam: (or plan9 instead of oberon, it tooks some of the good ideas from oberon).
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2016-02-23T10:27:56Z loke: igam: eros and all its derivatives are dead though
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2016-02-23T11:38:35Z Walex: loke: EROS was not Microsoft-compatible
2016-02-23T11:38:42Z Walex: :-)
2016-02-23T11:39:14Z loke: Walex: Android is not MS compatible and it's doing pretty well :-)
2016-02-23T11:39:26Z loke: Neither are Linux or Freebsd or whatever.
2016-02-23T11:39:40Z loke: I think they key is to be POSIX-compatible. At least then you can run most software.
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2016-02-23T11:39:57Z loke: But none of these OS'es are, thus they will fail.
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2016-02-23T12:12:04Z DeadTrickster: just found one of my university projects in backups
2016-02-23T12:12:16Z DeadTrickster: I was trying to implements something lispy in .net
2016-02-23T12:12:32Z DeadTrickster: over 60 kloc of pain )
2016-02-23T12:12:34Z DeadTrickster: https://github.com/deadtrickster/LiveLisp
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2016-02-23T12:13:41Z DeadTrickster: features (incomplete) interpreter and (incomplete IL compiler)
2016-02-23T12:14:14Z DeadTrickster: yeah definitely I was having fun
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2016-02-23T12:29:13Z ggole: 60K and you didn't finish either? Nice.
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2016-02-23T12:39:44Z yvm: CL-CFFI supports :long-double only with SCL?
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2016-02-23T12:41:23Z jackdaniel: according to cffi 0.16.1 sources – yes
2016-02-23T12:41:35Z jackdaniel: I'll put it in my todo to add ECL support
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2016-02-23T12:58:33Z yvm: And still no quad-float in sbcl?
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2016-02-23T13:26:37Z igam: loke: android (and even iOS) are making posix basically irrelevant. Ok, you can (theorically) run posix code on those platforms.  But it's irrelevant because it won't be visible to the user, and if you make a UI for the user it will eat all the CPU and RAM, and you will want to run your legacy posix code on the server.
2016-02-23T13:27:14Z igam: loke on the other hand, Android shows that a lispmachine-kind system can be deployed successfully commercially.
2016-02-23T13:27:33Z igam: (but perhaps this happens only once every 40 or 50 years).
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2016-02-23T13:31:20Z dwchandler: Android/iOS are meant to be appliances. Do things that fit and it'll be smooth. Try to use it as a general purpose computer and you'll have a rough time.
2016-02-23T13:31:52Z dwchandler: And no, mobile is not the new computer. Computers are still the computer.
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2016-02-23T13:32:20Z p_l: android is very far from a lisp machine like system
2016-02-23T13:33:07Z p_l: some of the basic ideas from it are very good even for a general-purpose computing, but the form of Android the mobile OS is ... varied on that. That said, it's AFAIK better than iOS in this regard
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2016-02-23T13:34:16Z jackdaniel: basically android is build on top of posix (whole ndk), so I wouldn't call it irrevelant
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2016-02-23T13:34:49Z p_l: jackdaniel: not posix, at least not in spec
2016-02-23T13:35:09Z p_l: it takes from POSIX, but most of it involves libc stuff, not OS stuff
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2016-02-23T13:36:02Z p_l: from POSIX... I think there's threading, mmap(), and some low-level file i/o
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2016-02-23T13:37:23Z dwchandler: You are meant to develop to the android api. Any posix functions under that are only meant to support the higher level api
2016-02-23T13:37:52Z p_l: to be specific, except for stuff included in NDK headers, there's no more API
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2016-02-23T13:39:41Z jackdaniel: dwchandler: if we deny the discussion context, that posix is "irrevelant" for the platform, then yes, you are right.
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2016-02-23T13:42:23Z dreamaddict: in OpenAL, (alut:load-memory-hello-world) works properly, returning 4 values...the demo function that uses it works as well...but I cannot get (alut:load-memory-from-file) to work at all
2016-02-23T13:42:55Z dreamaddict: every path I try gives a generic "there was an error loading ..." error, and looking in the source it does not signal any other type of error
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2016-02-23T13:43:31Z dreamaddict: obviously the wrapper is simple, which is fine, but I wish I knew why it wouldn't load a file.  both mp3s and wavs have been tried...I am under the impression that it requires a wav file, however, none of them work
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2016-02-23T13:47:21Z Shinmera: If I remember correctly OpenAL doesn't support any formats except for PCM
2016-02-23T13:48:02Z Shinmera: I'm sure you could google for articles that explain how to write a loader for different formats though.
2016-02-23T13:49:27Z dreamaddict: that is all possible
2016-02-23T13:49:35Z dreamaddict: ok so I'll have to make a PCM file to really test it
2016-02-23T13:49:45Z dreamaddict: and obviously the hello-world data is a bit of PCM
2016-02-23T13:50:44Z dreamaddict: apparently WAV is uncompressed PCM data...?
2016-02-23T13:50:44Z Shinmera: OpenAL is in the same class as OpenGL in the sense that file formats are outside of its concerns.
2016-02-23T13:51:02Z dreamaddict: ok ok, so any load mp3/wav/other format support will have to be homebrewed somehow
2016-02-23T13:51:06Z Shinmera: Sure, but WAV includes other data alongside that might trip it up.
2016-02-23T13:51:09Z dreamaddict: right
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2016-02-23T13:51:47Z Shinmera: There's at least one library to decode WAV in QL already.
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2016-02-23T13:51:50Z vmonteco: Hello! :)
2016-02-23T13:51:59Z dreamaddict: cool well then I will have to find it
2016-02-23T13:52:05Z dreamaddict: hi there!
2016-02-23T13:52:22Z Shinmera: (ql:system-apropos "wav")
2016-02-23T13:52:37Z vmonteco: Did anyone already try to use sdl with lisp (with something like lispbuilder-sdl)?
2016-02-23T13:52:47Z Shinmera: Yes.
2016-02-23T13:53:51Z yvm: lispbuilder-sdl works fine.
2016-02-23T13:54:10Z Shinmera: Proof: https://github.com/Shinmera/kiga-wavesim
2016-02-23T13:54:27Z vmonteco: I just have troubles to handle some events, mouse-wheel events aren't triggered if a shift key is down.
2016-02-23T13:54:49Z vmonteco: http://dpaste.com/29H8DEQ
2016-02-23T13:55:42Z dreamaddict: although there is one weird thing:  I did try loading memory using one of the OpenAL waveform generators, (alut:load-memory-waveform)
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2016-02-23T13:56:34Z dreamaddict: it took a few tries to figure out that the values for it should be all floats, but finally (alut:load-memory-waveform 1 1500.0 0.0 3.0) executed without criticizing the params...and then gave a generic "there was a problem loading waveform" error
2016-02-23T13:56:45Z dreamaddict: just like it did with the files...only a waveform should be as pure as it gets
2016-02-23T13:57:20Z dreamaddict: "There was an error loading this waveform"
2016-02-23T13:57:40Z Shinmera: Looks like the lib is really not helping you at all. :(
2016-02-23T13:58:06Z Shinmera: Usually good wrappers take care of type conversion and such for you.
2016-02-23T13:58:19Z dreamaddict: yeah well, he did mention that it was a pretty bare-bones wrapper
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2016-02-23T13:58:33Z dreamaddict: I just figured it could at least make a pure waveform without too much trouble :P
2016-02-23T13:58:35Z vmonteco: Shinmera: I just wanted to have an output to describe the state of keys and buttons pressed. Shift events : OK. mouse buttons events : OK. shift + mouse-button : OK, but shift + mouse-wheel : Meh...
2016-02-23T13:59:19Z Shinmera: vmontec: might be unrelated to CL. Have you tried googling for it?
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2016-02-23T14:00:59Z dreamaddict: tricky, trying to figure out just what the hell the wrapper does and doesn't do
2016-02-23T14:01:32Z vmonteco: Shinmera: It may also be the OS, I'm working on OSX right now, but it seemed to work at home on Linux. I made a little game of life using a shift+mouse-wheel event and then I tried it at home it worked. :/ weird.
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2016-02-23T14:01:55Z dreamaddict: it just might be one of those special cases you have to take care of
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2016-02-23T14:03:50Z dreamaddict: also (and this does seem weird to me), the code for loading data into a buffer in the demo is (al:buffer-data buffer :mono16 data 16356 11025)
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2016-02-23T14:04:25Z dreamaddict: the weird thing being, :mono16 16356 11025 are all three values that are passed back by the loading function
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2016-02-23T14:04:53Z dreamaddict: it would only be weird if there was some good reason you'd want to handcode it like that instead of just sticking the values in there
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2016-02-23T14:16:48Z dreamaddict: how do you convert floats to ints?
2016-02-23T14:17:23Z Shinmera: Depends on how you want to round
2016-02-23T14:17:34Z dreamaddict: wellll down I guess
2016-02-23T14:17:40Z Shinmera: floor, then
2016-02-23T14:18:28Z dreamaddict: good enough
2016-02-23T14:18:36Z Shinmera: Also see http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_floorc.htm
2016-02-23T14:19:14Z dreamaddict: I just always forget, because I don't think of them as converting the value to another type
2016-02-23T14:20:40Z Shinmera: Well, floats and integers are after all merely certain classes of numbers.
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2016-02-23T14:22:02Z myrkraverk: When making C++ <--> Lisp glue, how "safe" is it to propagate std::bad_alloc all the way to Lisp, before crashing and burning?
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2016-02-23T14:23:16Z p_l: the problem is reporting it to lisp, IMO
2016-02-23T14:23:32Z p_l: given that most systems lack NT/VMS approach
2016-02-23T14:23:40Z myrkraverk: As in, can I reasonably expect the Lisp engine to have enough resources to crash and burn if it receives a condition based on std::bad_alloc?
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2016-02-23T14:24:18Z dlowe: I would imagine the C++ exception mechanism would attempt to operate on the lisp stack and at that point anything could happen.
2016-02-23T14:24:19Z p_l: possible, I guess. It's a) rather low-level design part b) there's no clean way to propagate C++ exception outside of C++
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2016-02-23T14:24:39Z p_l: and well, that
2016-02-23T14:24:49Z myrkraverk: Ok, so we can all speak the same language.
2016-02-23T14:24:50Z p_l: I think all C++ calls should be in some form of try block
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2016-02-23T14:25:07Z dlowe: You could theoretically catch all exceptions and turn them into CL conditions.
2016-02-23T14:25:21Z dlowe: sounds hard, though. Maybe clasp will do it
2016-02-23T14:25:42Z Shinmera: myrkraverk: you can talk to drmeister for a very long time about the pain and misery of C++ exceptions
2016-02-23T14:25:49Z myrkraverk: I have a C++ <--> C <--> Lisp glue.  The C glue catches all C++ exceptions, and uses the exception.what() string to call a callback in Lisp.  That callback takes the string and creates Lisp condition.
2016-02-23T14:26:09Z myrkraverk: Which is meant to cause SBCL to crash and burn (as in, not to be handled at all)
2016-02-23T14:26:19Z Shinmera: dlowe: Clasp should seamlessly work between both, yes.
2016-02-23T14:27:01Z dlowe: SBCL will drop into the debugger by default, not crash
2016-02-23T14:27:11Z myrkraverk: I just wrote some code that throws a std::bad_alloc, to see if that would turn into a Lisp condition; it is.
2016-02-23T14:27:38Z myrkraverk: dlowe: the way I'm calling it, it does; but yeah, that's a minor point.
2016-02-23T14:28:20Z myrkraverk: What I *want* to happen is for SBCL to crash and burn, like when it gets an unhandled condition with a --script parameter.
2016-02-23T14:28:43Z myrkraverk: But, what I'm wondering, *should* I wait that long to crash and burn?
2016-02-23T14:28:56Z Shinmera: Depends on how nice you want to be to the user.
2016-02-23T14:28:59Z myrkraverk: Is it better to catch it before it reaches Lisp, and terminate the process?
2016-02-23T14:29:10Z Shinmera: Sometimes you might be able to recover and the user might want to be able to do that.
2016-02-23T14:29:16Z myrkraverk: Well, the user is mainly myself.
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2016-02-23T14:29:33Z dlowe: recovery from a bad_alloc sounds unlikely
2016-02-23T14:29:34Z Shinmera: Then just do whatever you want :)
2016-02-23T14:29:47Z myrkraverk: Shinmera: ok, so the translation into a CL condition is "the right thing to do" most of the time.
2016-02-23T14:29:58Z Shinmera: dlowe: Well, recovery in the sense that you might clean up some stuff and write a report about it and then exit.
2016-02-23T14:30:11Z myrkraverk: dlowe: except if the user can terminate some other processes and try again.
2016-02-23T14:30:21Z dlowe: Maybe. If you have corrupted memory, you don'
2016-02-23T14:30:27Z myrkraverk: *nod*
2016-02-23T14:30:28Z Shinmera: myrkraverk: I just like high level abstractions and giving control to users as much as possible. There may be situations where that isn't the best decision, I don't know.
2016-02-23T14:30:33Z dlowe: don't know what will happen if you try to do anything
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2016-02-23T14:32:19Z Shinmera has nightmare flashbacks to the times when Qt makes SBCL crash out of nowhere with a memory corruption
2016-02-23T14:32:30Z Shinmera is sad
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2016-02-23T14:34:22Z p_l had waking nightmare with G++ vtables as main characters
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2016-02-23T14:38:00Z Shinmera: :(
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2016-02-23T15:32:08Z drmeister: Is this a reasonable license?  It's what my University legal department gave me for CANDO (the chemistry extension to Clasp) - there's no mention of LGPL 2.x
2016-02-23T15:32:11Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/K3l5fT1l/
2016-02-23T15:33:17Z drmeister: It gives the rights to "use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell copies of the Software".  Then it says at the bottom: "This is an open source license for the CANDO software from Temple University, but it is not the only one. Contact Temple University at mailto:techtransfer@temple.edu if you would like a different license."
2016-02-23T15:33:46Z drmeister: The bottom sounds pointless to me given the granted rights.
2016-02-23T15:33:56Z dlowe: No copyright clause or anything?
2016-02-23T15:34:01Z Xach: drmeister: you might want a version that does not show the notice.
2016-02-23T15:34:22Z Xach: drmeister: it looks reasonable to me
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2016-02-23T15:35:24Z dlowe: oh, okay. Looks very similar to a standard MIT-type license.
2016-02-23T15:35:31Z splittist_: drmeister: looks reasonable to me.  There is no way to satisfy everyone.
2016-02-23T15:35:47Z DeadTrickster: probably at least sbcl version in channel topic could be updated
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2016-02-23T15:37:45Z drmeister: Xach: Does not show which notice?
2016-02-23T15:38:04Z splittist_: line 19
2016-02-23T15:38:06Z Xach: drmeister: the copyright and rights notice
2016-02-23T15:38:25Z Xach: drmeister: i.e. you might want a proprietary version of the software
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2016-02-23T15:40:40Z splittist_: Xach: presumably that would be a different negotiation with Temple's TTO.
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2016-02-23T15:41:07Z dwchandler: Also, why have a bespoke license that's essentially the same as existing licenses?
2016-02-23T15:41:34Z Xach: splittist_: yes. hence the notice email them about it.
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2016-02-23T15:44:25Z splittist_: It's less that 5 sentences, is highly permissive, and seeks to avoid drmeister being liable for the millions of deaths from grey goo developed with CANDO. I give it a thumb's up.
2016-02-23T15:45:41Z splittist_ thinks most license discussions are like having a policy for what to do when aliens teleport Earth to another galaxy.
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2016-02-23T15:52:25Z jackdaniel: cmucl snapshots have two archives for each platform - normal and "extra", what is a difference?
2016-02-23T15:53:56Z jackdaniel: nvm, looked in the wrong place (it's with some extra modules, like clx and hemlock)
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2016-02-23T16:08:47Z drmeister: Ok, thanks!
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2016-02-23T16:20:39Z phoe_krk: I'm thinking about a better garbage collector.
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2016-02-23T16:24:41Z jackdaniel: better than what?
2016-02-23T16:24:42Z phoe_krk: Basically we're in the era of multicore processing. Why not devote a single core of a processor with a single specialized thread to memory management which includes memory allocation, moving data around in memory as necessary and garbage collection, and compute utilizing the whole rest, [>>]
2016-02-23T16:25:06Z Xach: hmm
2016-02-23T16:25:15Z Xach: something weird going on with cffi?
2016-02-23T16:25:30Z Xach: seeing several Unknown CFFI type :SIZET
2016-02-23T16:25:33Z phoe_krk: [>>] with all the N-1 other threads waiting for the MM/GC one for all tasks related to memory management?
2016-02-23T16:25:34Z jackdaniel: phoe_krk: if you ask about concurrent gc, then ccl has that I think
2016-02-23T16:25:37Z Xach: not sure if cffi or something else
2016-02-23T16:25:59Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: just thinking aloud
2016-02-23T16:26:08Z phoe_krk: about how such a thing would function
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2016-02-23T16:26:31Z dlowe: If you're interested, there's a LOT of research on that topic you should read instead of just speculating.
2016-02-23T16:26:40Z dlowe: The truth is out there
2016-02-23T16:26:54Z phoe_krk: dlowe: I'm fairly close to doing this
2016-02-23T16:27:22Z phoe_krk: the truth that's out there is, I'm way too sleepy right now to be able to focus on anything that's more than three sentences long
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2016-02-23T16:28:19Z jackdaniel: good to know I'm yours rubber duck
2016-02-23T16:29:01Z phoe_krk squeezes the rubber duck
2016-02-23T16:29:04Z phoe_krk: yay
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2016-02-23T16:29:53Z Xach: |3b|: latest cffi seems to break cl-glu in cl-opengl
2016-02-23T16:30:03Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2016-02-22/failure-report/cl-opengl.html#cl-glu has some info
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2016-02-23T16:32:15Z Xach: luis: do you know what's up with that new error with cl-glu?
2016-02-23T16:33:03Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: "The GC stops all other threads while it operates. Some sort of concurrent GC (where collector and mutator threads can run at the same time) might be beneficial for some users."
2016-02-23T16:33:10Z phoe_krk: via http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/ToDo
2016-02-23T16:33:18Z phoe_krk: so I don't think CCL has a concurrent GC.
2016-02-23T16:33:47Z jackdaniel: then I was mistaken
2016-02-23T16:35:56Z myrkraverk: Is there an implementation with concurrent GC?
2016-02-23T16:36:02Z myrkraverk: Afaict, SBCL does not.
2016-02-23T16:37:05Z phoe_krk: It does not. SBCL has an average stop-the-world GC, I've checked.
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2016-02-23T16:39:35Z jackdaniel: ABCL utilizes JVM's GC which may be concurrent
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2016-02-23T16:41:48Z drmeister: So... What's the best Common Lisp syntax for creating a 3D vector?
2016-02-23T16:41:58Z drmeister: Currently I have:    (geom:make-v3 1.0 2.0 3.0)
2016-02-23T16:42:07Z phoe_krk: hey, https://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/technotes/guides/vm/gctuning/cms.html is just what I was thinking of!
2016-02-23T16:42:16Z phoe_krk: drmeister: what does your geom:make-v3 evaluate to?
2016-02-23T16:43:04Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/04Fn3xcI/
2016-02-23T16:43:26Z drmeister: It returns a 3D vector object implemented in C++.
2016-02-23T16:43:35Z dlowe: drmeister: your object needs a print-object method :)
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2016-02-23T16:43:46Z phoe_krk: ^
2016-02-23T16:44:02Z phoe_krk: if it's a vector, it should definitely be something printable.
2016-02-23T16:44:20Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/FKtnnxmk/
2016-02-23T16:44:46Z drmeister: This is what it currently prints as.  I haven't created a reader macro for #\[ but I was thinking about it.
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2016-02-23T16:46:13Z phoe_krk: drmeister: actually the #(1 2 3) macro was the first thing I thought of.
2016-02-23T16:46:38Z phoe_krk: Or the equivalent #1A(1 2 3) version of it.
2016-02-23T16:46:44Z drmeister: But it's like this.  I'm extending Common Lisp with lots of new builtin classes for things like chemistry atoms, molecules, 3d-vectors, 4x4 matrices.   These are not CLOS classes, they are implemented in C++.  They can be used to dispatch generic functions.
2016-02-23T16:46:45Z Shinmera: drmeister: In my 3d vectors lib I just write (vec x y z) and it prints as that too.
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2016-02-23T16:47:18Z drmeister: Shinmera: "vec" is in what package?
2016-02-23T16:47:20Z Shinmera: drmeister: https://github.com/Shinmera/3d-vectors
2016-02-23T16:47:34Z Shinmera: drmeister: It's in the 3d-vectors package, but you're meant to :use it.
2016-02-23T16:48:09Z phoe_krk: drmeister: let me go the simple way. What prevents you from using average Lisp arrays in this case?
2016-02-23T16:48:18Z phoe_krk: CL-USER> #(1.0 2.0 3.0) ;=> #(1.0 2.0 3.0)
2016-02-23T16:48:26Z drmeister: Shinmera: I see (https://github.com/Shinmera/3d-vectors/blob/master/package.lisp)  - I think I'll use that.
2016-02-23T16:49:08Z drmeister: phoe_krk: It's a C++ class that my code uses extensively.
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2016-02-23T16:49:33Z phoe_krk: I see.
2016-02-23T16:49:41Z drmeister: It has methods defined on it for all sorts of vector operations.
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2016-02-23T16:49:57Z phoe_krk: Hmm.
2016-02-23T16:50:12Z phoe_krk: Shinmera's code seems to have a whole variety of vector operations covered.
2016-02-23T16:51:35Z drmeister: So does mine - in C++ - and I expose them to CANDO Common Lisp.  I can also declare them in C++ code on the stack.  I couldn't do that as easily with a Common Lisp array.
2016-02-23T16:52:10Z Shinmera: phoe_krk: It's unlikely to trump his in speed for clasp.
2016-02-23T16:52:21Z Shinmera: phoe_krk: Plus there's the interop.
2016-02-23T16:52:40Z drmeister: I'm looking for better names for things though.  Some of my names are clumsy.
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2016-02-23T16:55:36Z drmeister: Especially before anyone else writes anymore CANDO code.   Short names like these are a b*tch to refactor.
2016-02-23T16:56:18Z drmeister: Shinmera: Do you like the V+, V- etc. names?
2016-02-23T16:56:42Z Shinmera: drmeister: Well. I can't extend CL:+/etc, so I opted for the shortest alternative.
2016-02-23T16:57:21Z Shinmera: Having things long makes things very tedious and hard to read for more complex calculations.
2016-02-23T16:57:53Z drmeister: Yeah - I understand not extending CL:+/etc.  But are there other alternatives that you would prefer?
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2016-02-23T16:58:58Z Shinmera: I couldn't think of anything better at the time.
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2016-02-23T16:59:23Z Shinmera: I then decided to prefix everything with 'v' so that people could simply use-it and make it very concise.
2016-02-23T16:59:25Z myrkraverk: Do SBCL threads have any sort of at-thread-exit hooks, that I can use to clean up (if needed) my C++ glue?
2016-02-23T16:59:45Z myrkraverk: Apparently not, by the manual.
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2016-02-23T17:00:47Z Shinmera: drmeister: Granted I don't know of anyone outside of myself that used it, so I don't have any feedback on it.
2016-02-23T17:01:07Z Shinmera: And I only used it very briefly for two projects so far.
2016-02-23T17:01:27Z Shinmera: (Those being Flare and my LD33 entry, if anyone remembers those, uh, accidents)
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2016-02-23T17:15:52Z p_l: phoe_krk: I fear you need to educate yourself more on state-of-the-art GC algorithms. Multithreaded, multicore optimized GCs are a thing for a decade at least, I think.
2016-02-23T17:16:05Z p_l: pity that the material on GCs is sometimes hard to find :<
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2016-02-23T17:38:53Z drmeister: p_l: Someone could make tens of dollars writing a good book about it.
2016-02-23T17:39:29Z p_l: drmeister: On one side, I want to agree, on another, I see it overlooked except for university libraries, on third look I notice "tens of dollars" and start laughing
2016-02-23T17:39:42Z drmeister: Not because it isn't important or valuable - just that the audience that can appreciate it is small.
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2016-02-23T17:41:36Z p_l: just the old blue book about GCs by, iirc, Boehm et al? advanced my understanding a lot
2016-02-23T17:41:52Z p_l: enough to understand when MS explained their multithreaded .NET allocator
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2016-02-23T17:50:22Z learning: hi, trying to get the incudine examples to run again today. when trying to run the examples i'm getting the error: "The alien function "pa_set_devices" is undefined."  Which is defined in some C file in the /src/ dir of the source code. Since it's saying it's undefined does this mean i failed to include a reference to something?
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2016-02-23T17:53:00Z H4ns: learning: it means that the foreign library that contains the function has not been loaded into the running lisp.
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2016-02-23T17:59:02Z learning: so i probably need to do something like (cffi:load-foreign-library "lib.dylib") ?
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2016-02-23T17:59:21Z H4ns: yes...
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2016-02-23T18:00:46Z |3b|: Xach: hmm, that's a valid thing for cffi to complain about, but at the same time, it brings up an immediate feature request for CFI to add something identical to defcenum that aren't literally C enums but act like them
2016-02-23T18:03:43Z vmonteco: Shinmera: Hello again! I suspected a version problem, So I tried to reproduce on a ubuntu VM with both 1.3.2 and 1.2.11 (it fails with 1.2.11 on OSX) and it worked fine on ubuntu with both. So I guess my event problem with these shift+mouse-wheel SDL events are only related to OSX. Thank you for your help anyway :)
2016-02-23T18:04:21Z |3b|: Xach: not sure those actually need to be doubles though, so might be able to fix it easily. when is next ql release?
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2016-02-23T18:05:54Z Shinmera: vmonteco: May very well be. A cursory googling doesn't seem to reveal anything about it, unfortunately.
2016-02-23T18:06:03Z |3b|: ah, never mind... i see why they are double. probably can still fix it though
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2016-02-23T18:21:01Z malice: Hey guys, what's * in Common Lisp? I know what it does, but I wonder how do you call it. Is it symbol macro, function, special operator, or something else?
2016-02-23T18:21:30Z dlowe: It's just a function that multiplies numbers...
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2016-02-23T18:21:58Z White_Flame: I think you mean the value *?
2016-02-23T18:22:08Z malice: dlowe: I might have been unclear, sorry. I mean that if you provide toplevel with just *, then it returns the value of previous evaluation
2016-02-23T18:22:14Z malice: Yeah, something like that.
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2016-02-23T18:22:28Z dlowe: oh, that. That's a REPL feature.
2016-02-23T18:22:52Z dlowe: If you do it in a file, CL will just get confused
2016-02-23T18:23:27Z malice: dlowe: Is it specified in standard?
2016-02-23T18:23:41Z dlowe: yeah
2016-02-23T18:23:41Z dlowe: clhs *
2016-02-23T18:23:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_st.htm
2016-02-23T18:23:54Z malice: Thanks!
2016-02-23T18:23:57Z dlowe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v__stst_.htm
2016-02-23T18:24:00Z jasom: it's a variable
2016-02-23T18:24:18Z dlowe: yeah
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2016-02-23T18:25:22Z axion: there's also +/++/+++ for forms
2016-02-23T18:25:25Z jasom: if you were to implement a repl yourself, you could do something like (psetf * result ** * *** **) before returning to READ
2016-02-23T18:25:55Z jasom: the strangest thing I type on a semi-regular basis is (* * *) when I want to square the last result in a REPL
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2016-02-23T18:26:21Z axion: haha
2016-02-23T18:26:25Z warweasle: jasom: you have to love lisp.
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2016-02-23T18:27:42Z jasom: axion: and don't forget / // ///
2016-02-23T18:27:47Z jasom: clhs //
2016-02-23T18:27:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_sl_sls.htm
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2016-02-23T18:28:32Z axion: heh, learn something new about lisp everyday
2016-02-23T18:30:13Z malice: I actually found out about them because I was playing with macros, and I accidentally passed + instead of #'+
2016-02-23T18:30:18Z malice: And + happily got evaluated
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2016-02-23T18:35:15Z learning: malice you might find this interesting: http://lisptips.com/post/30978863226/a-simple-repl
2016-02-23T18:36:35Z malice: :)
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2016-02-23T18:41:20Z Bicyclidine: i guess a fuller one would be... (shiftf /// // / (multiple-value-list (eval (setf - (read))))) (shiftf +++ ++ + -) (shiftf *** ** * (first /))
2016-02-23T18:41:48Z jasom: Bicyclidine: is m-v-l SETFable?
2016-02-23T18:42:04Z Bicyclidine: probably not?
2016-02-23T18:42:09Z Bicyclidine: it's shiftf, not rotatef
2016-02-23T18:42:12Z jasom: oh shiftf
2016-02-23T18:44:15Z Bicyclidine: (setf - (read) /// // // / / (multiple-value-list (eval -)) +++ ++ ++ + + - *** ** ** * * (first /)), so readable
2016-02-23T18:45:13Z Bicyclidine: that's probably not technically correct. whatevs, adding some with-simple-restart would be the actual useful thing
2016-02-23T18:49:52Z learning: So i'm assuming pa stands for port audio. I tried loading all of my port audio libraries with (cffi:load-foreign-library "lib") but i'm still getting "Undefined alien: "pa_set_devices"" for all pa_function_name functions. i did a grep on the source code for "dylib" to see if it was looking for port audio in a certain place, but it doesn't seem to look for it at all.
2016-02-23T18:50:23Z learning: part of me is saying incudine is just deprecated because its 5+ years old. but im sure im just missing something obvious
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2016-02-23T18:50:53Z Bicyclidine: it's probably pulseaudio
2016-02-23T18:51:07Z Bicyclidine: er. nope. nevermind me
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2016-02-23T18:52:00Z fchurca: hullo
2016-02-23T18:52:27Z Bicyclidine: port audio doesn't even seem to use names like foo_bar_baz, just Pa_BarBaz
2016-02-23T18:53:30Z fchurca: re: http 400 on installing/upgrading quicklisp and its packages through http proxy
2016-02-23T18:53:31Z learning: i noticed the library uses a lot of "darwin" commands and port audio says they no longer support darwin on their site. so this might be a reason that something is breaking.
2016-02-23T18:53:42Z Bicyclidine: quite probably
2016-02-23T18:53:51Z learning: i have no idea what darwin is, im just grasping at straws
2016-02-23T18:53:52Z fchurca: installing quicklisp from scratch from yesterday's version did indeed fix it
2016-02-23T18:54:05Z learning: i think i'll just have to move on to another audio library
2016-02-23T18:54:22Z Bicyclidine: darwin is the base of OS X.
2016-02-23T18:54:25Z fchurca: learning: maybe darwin as in the kernel?
2016-02-23T18:54:43Z learning: ah, im on osx
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2016-02-23T18:56:08Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-02-23T18:56:14Z Bicyclidine: yo.
2016-02-23T18:56:22Z Shinmera: Hey ho beach
2016-02-23T18:56:49Z learning: are there any other audio synthesizer libraries anyone would recommend?
2016-02-23T18:56:52Z beach is going to be here only briefly.
2016-02-23T18:57:00Z learning: im gonna start going through what's listed on cliki
2016-02-23T18:57:00Z Bicyclidine: Did you try mixalot?
2016-02-23T18:57:33Z learning: is that a synthesizer? the readme made it seem like it just plays audio files
2016-02-23T18:58:04Z learning: or not the readme, but the github. i dont think there is a readme
2016-02-23T18:58:07Z beach: fchurca: [I am reading the logs from the other day] Second Climacs is nowhere near completion.  Right now I am busy with my ELS submissions, but after that, I will probably start working on the Common Lisp incremental parser and on the CLIM II GUI.
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2016-02-23T18:58:24Z Bicyclidine: oh, yeah, sorry. honestly for synthesis i'd probably just write out waves myself, eheh.
2016-02-23T18:58:35Z learning: how would i get started doing that
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2016-02-23T19:00:43Z Bicyclidine: loop for i below 8192 collect (sin (/ i 8192 2 pi))
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2016-02-23T19:01:24Z Bicyclidine: if you want basics you could read something like http://www.pd-tutorial.com/, which of course uses a totally different programming paradigm, but hey
2016-02-23T19:01:54Z learning: i basically know nothing about audio
2016-02-23T19:02:07Z beach: phoe_krk: You shouldn't necessarily listen to the advice about GC. :)  I myself like to think about it myself for some time before studying the literature.
2016-02-23T19:02:11Z beach: phoe_krk: Most of the time, it means I re-invent the wheel, but occasionally, I have an idea that nobody appears to have had before.  People are comfortable working in different ways.
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2016-02-23T19:02:54Z fchurca: beach: thanks for the update! :D
2016-02-23T19:03:10Z Bicyclidine: if you really know nothing, then honestly i'd probably start with a dedicated synth program of some kind, milkytracker or whatever, instead of just programming
2016-02-23T19:03:21Z learning: honestly
2016-02-23T19:03:28Z learning: i just want to start with something basic
2016-02-23T19:03:28Z jasom: I wish GCs were easier to experiment with; unfortunately generating efficient mutator code usually requires making assumptions about how the collector will work
2016-02-23T19:03:29Z beach: fchurca: Yeah, sorry that it is not further along.  Too much to do, not enough time.
2016-02-23T19:03:36Z learning: where i write a piece of code and it makes a sound
2016-02-23T19:03:40Z jasom: which means modifying the GC will also involve modifying the code generator
2016-02-23T19:03:52Z learning: i dont need to make full on songs right now, im just interested in writing code that creates sound
2016-02-23T19:03:53Z beach: jasom: Yeah, I agree.  That sucks.
2016-02-23T19:03:54Z Bicyclidine: unfortunately, that's a tall order.
2016-02-23T19:04:14Z learning: in common lisp you mean?
2016-02-23T19:04:24Z learning: ive done it in other languages. it wasnt a big deal.
2016-02-23T19:04:33Z Bicyclidine: which?
2016-02-23T19:04:46Z learning: c#, ruby
2016-02-23T19:05:21Z Bicyclidine: using, like, https://github.com/djberg96/win32-sound or something?
2016-02-23T19:05:27Z learning: yeah, some lib
2016-02-23T19:05:38Z learning: and then you just create the samples
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2016-02-23T19:06:00Z beach: phoe_krk: Having said that, I can recommend "The Compressor: Concurrent, Incremental, and Parallel Compaction" by Kermany and Petrank from PLDI 2006.
2016-02-23T19:06:33Z beach has to go.
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2016-02-23T19:07:20Z Bicyclidine: well, dunno what to tell you. there's stuff like https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/clm/ but maybe it hasn't kept up with every OS changing their systems all the time. i don't know.
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2016-02-23T19:08:42Z fchurca: learning: have you tried OpenMusic? http://repmus.ircam.fr/openmusic/home
2016-02-23T19:09:22Z fchurca: "Existing CommonLisp/CLOS code can easily be used in OM" (i personally haven't tested that, nor anything at all from OM, yet)
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2016-02-23T19:30:01Z pareidolia: Does anyone know of a trick in Emacs to drag trailing close-parens to the previous line (I find I often have to do that after killing a form)
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2016-02-23T19:34:35Z Shinmera: Go to the previous line's end and hit C-k twice.
2016-02-23T19:35:20Z pareidolia: That's a bit better
2016-02-23T19:35:21Z Shinmera: If there's something shorter that'd be nice to know though.
2016-02-23T19:35:29Z pareidolia: Yep
2016-02-23T19:37:57Z PuercoPop: pareidolia: C-^
2016-02-23T19:39:22Z pareidolia: Do you know the name of the function? It's unbound here
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2016-02-23T19:39:46Z PuercoPop: something like join lines, sec
2016-02-23T19:39:59Z PuercoPop: but it is M-^ :D
2016-02-23T19:40:14Z pareidolia: Thank you!
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2016-02-23T19:40:43Z pareidolia: Didn't find it because it wasn't part of Paredit or Slime
2016-02-23T19:40:47Z PuercoPop: the function is delete-indentation
2016-02-23T19:41:04Z Shinmera: Bah, I can't even type that on my layout
2016-02-23T19:41:05Z PuercoPop: pareidolia: there are a couple of useful functions now part of paredit, like C-M-SPC
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2016-02-23T19:42:11Z pareidolia: Nice
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2016-02-23T19:57:24Z jasom: I gave up on learning paredit when I discovered adjust-parens which does most of what I need without confusing my muscle memory
2016-02-23T19:57:45Z antoszka: Yeah, that seems to be the way to go.
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2016-02-23T19:59:03Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/308057 <-- here's what I use in evil-mode; I have evil-lisp-dedent and evil-lisp-indent bound to << and >>
2016-02-23T19:59:56Z learning: parenfer looks good
2016-02-23T20:00:19Z jasom: learning: it does, but I haven't figured out what it is supposed to do that adjust-parens doesn't
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2016-02-23T20:01:21Z jasom: I suppose it trades off being a lot smarter by getting confused when quotes aren't balanced
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2016-02-23T20:04:14Z learning: im not an emacs user
2016-02-23T20:04:31Z learning: all i know is paredit for vim is absolute shit
2016-02-23T20:04:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: learning: I really like it.
2016-02-23T20:04:57Z learning: do you make your own hotkeys for lisp?
2016-02-23T20:05:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: No
2016-02-23T20:05:08Z learning: yeah see thats the issue
2016-02-23T20:05:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: ?
2016-02-23T20:05:26Z learning: paredit interferes with the hotkeys that i write
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2016-02-23T20:06:03Z learning: i tried it 3 different times and every time i had issues with it that couldn't be overcome
2016-02-23T20:06:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have a ton of hotkeys of my own.
2016-02-23T20:06:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: The main problem I have is that paredit messes up the registers
2016-02-23T20:06:33Z learning: like i couldnt even do something basic like add my own hotkey to remove the parentheses around the current form
2016-02-23T20:07:06Z learning: and its like maybe paredit has something for that
2016-02-23T20:07:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, you don't like ,S ?
2016-02-23T20:07:21Z learning: but i really dont want to waste my time reading paredit docs and memorizing their hotkeys
2016-02-23T20:07:22Z pareidolia: Splice
2016-02-23T20:07:26Z learning: for something i can do in less time on my own
2016-02-23T20:07:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: ,S -> remove parens
2016-02-23T20:07:38Z learning: yeah
2016-02-23T20:07:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: ,W -> add parens
2016-02-23T20:07:45Z pareidolia: Wrap
2016-02-23T20:07:49Z learning: and what if i dont want capital letters
2016-02-23T20:07:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: ,< -> move parens backwords
2016-02-23T20:07:56Z learning: then i gotta look up in the docs what the command is
2016-02-23T20:07:59Z pareidolia: Slurp, Barf :P
2016-02-23T20:08:02Z learning: and make a commadn that calls that
2016-02-23T20:08:04Z learning: etc etc
2016-02-23T20:08:12Z learning: when i could take 2 mintues to write my own hotkey
2016-02-23T20:08:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sure, but that's par for the course if you want to customize your editor.
2016-02-23T20:08:42Z learning: i mean thats kind of the whole point of using vim
2016-02-23T20:09:15Z learning: definitely easier to write hotkeys on my own then memorize parenedit
2016-02-23T20:09:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: My point is that if you want to customize things, you have to know the function name that does what you want.
2016-02-23T20:09:23Z PuercoPop: I mostly use paredit-forward-slurp-sexp and command paredit-splice-sexp, ocassionally transpose-sexp. When emacs 25 comes out I'll try going minimal with electric-pairs
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2016-02-23T20:09:47Z pareidolia: What's electric pairs?
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2016-02-23T20:10:01Z learning: the thing is i can write slurp and barf and have them work exactly how i want
2016-02-23T20:10:26Z learning: i havent seen anything in paredit that requires complex code
2016-02-23T20:11:20Z learning: thats why i think parenfer looks promising
2016-02-23T20:11:32Z learning: because i dont really want to write the code to do what it does
2016-02-23T20:11:40Z learning: but i would definitely use it
2016-02-23T20:11:47Z pareidolia: OMGz0rs!
2016-02-23T20:11:53Z learning: and it doesnt require me to look up anything in docs, it just works
2016-02-23T20:11:54Z pareidolia: I just had a real-world use for M-?
2016-02-23T20:12:02Z edgar-rft: electric pairs: <http://c8.alamy.com/comp/E089T6/two-pairs-of-shoes-hanging-from-a-electric-wire-E089T6.jpg>
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2016-02-23T20:13:52Z PuercoPop: pareidolia: the gist if of it is inserting the corresponding 'pair',  for (, ", {, etc.
2016-02-23T20:15:27Z pareidolia: My paredit does that for me
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2016-02-23T20:29:08Z jasom: PuercoPop: don't fail to look at adjust-parens it basically gives you commands to indent/deindent and then switches the parens around so they match the indentation i.e. deindent barfs and indent slurps
2016-02-23T20:31:00Z PuercoPop: jasom: I'll checkout it out in the next yaking season, Emacs 25 will give me the excuse
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2016-02-23T22:04:23Z kchndr: I totally forgot about live compiler
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2016-02-23T22:05:04Z kchndr: this poses interesting scenarios for a kernel. Has this been explored yet? If there's something I hate is recompiling the kernel everytime.
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2016-02-23T22:07:08Z kchndr: linux has some very rudimentary solutions, kgraft, kexec, ksplice, but none are user friendly, neither at the compiler level.
2016-02-23T22:07:40Z dwchandler: kchndr: lisp machine?
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2016-02-23T22:09:39Z jasom: kchndr: there were workstations with the OS written in lisp, and you could inspect and recompile the source while running
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2016-02-23T22:10:05Z jasom: My understanding is that this did have some issues for reproducability of builds, but was good otherwise
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2016-02-23T22:10:55Z jasom: "A novice was trying to fix a broken Lisp machine by turning the power off and on.  Knight, seeing what the student was doing, spoke sternly: “You cannot fix a machine by just power-cycling it with no understanding of what is going wrong.” Knight turned the machine off and on. The machine worked.
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2016-02-23T22:12:33Z kchndr: a modern one, on a modern cpu.
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2016-02-23T22:14:40Z jasom: unfortunately the most valuable code inside the linux kernel is device drivers for devices that either lack a public spec, or don't perform to the published spec.  Duplicating this is tons of extra work.  This is why most toy kernels run in a VM (where there is a fixed hardware configuration) and then you have the issue of "what if I want to patch the hypervisor"
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2016-02-23T22:17:29Z kchndr: which lisp 'toy' os are out there?
2016-02-23T22:17:47Z kchndr: I'd love to boot one in a vm
2016-02-23T22:17:49Z jasom: movitz, mezzano
2016-02-23T22:17:58Z VsyachePuz: kchndr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lisp-based_operating_systems
2016-02-23T22:18:00Z jasom: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano <-- that one ought to boot
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2016-02-23T22:21:16Z kchndr: thanks
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2016-02-23T22:29:48Z kchndr: oh another question, is lisp multi-threaded aware?
2016-02-23T22:30:01Z antoszka: Short answer: yes.
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2016-02-23T22:30:21Z kchndr: good
2016-02-23T22:30:28Z Shinmera: Longer answer: the standard knows nothing of threads, but most implementations in most settings will provide threads.
2016-02-23T22:31:40Z antoszka: Exactly.
2016-02-23T22:32:04Z antoszka: There are also some nice libraries that abstract over the handling provided by implementations.
2016-02-23T22:32:06Z kenanb: here is the problem, ContextL has an APPEND GF called PARTIAL-CLASS-BASE-INITARGS, you need to write a method to it that appends the new INITARGS you introduced to your newly defined METACLASS, so they can be used as valid CLASS OPTIONS when DEFCLASSing a class that uses that metaclass. The problem is, in ECL, if I define both metaclass, method and class in the same source file, that specific method is not called, so the initarg is not
2016-02-23T22:32:06Z kenanb: expected as class option, therefore signaling an error, but when I put defclass into a seperate source file that is compiled afterwards, it works
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2016-02-23T22:32:36Z kenanb: is that a bug, or expected due to compilation of code in parallel?
2016-02-23T22:32:38Z antoszka: kchndr: The thin basic layer being Bordeaux Threads, the bigger one (that's a really lovely library) being lparallel.
2016-02-23T22:32:50Z Bicyclidine: that probably doesn't have to do with parallel compilation
2016-02-23T22:33:34Z Bicyclidine: you probably just need to run things at compile-time instead of just compiling them.
2016-02-23T22:33:47Z Bicyclidine: by eval-when
2016-02-23T22:34:11Z Shinmera: antoszka: There's a bunch of libraries to do parallel tasks.
2016-02-23T22:34:34Z antoszka: Shinmera: Yeah, obviously I just picked two representative samples.
2016-02-23T22:34:36Z antoszka: kchndr: ↑
2016-02-23T22:34:47Z kenanb: Bicyclidine: hmm, I was thinking of eval-when, too, but I never use that form, don't know which keywords to provide in this case
2016-02-23T22:35:03Z Bicyclidine: when you don't know, using all of them is probably a good bet
2016-02-23T22:35:14Z Shinmera: kenanb: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ...)
2016-02-23T22:35:16Z kenanb: Bicyclidine: also, should that be considered a bug, or are implementations free to do that
2016-02-23T22:35:27Z Bicyclidine: it would probably be a bug to do it otherwise, actually.
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2016-02-23T22:36:53Z kenanb: so which code block should I put inside eval-when, the metaclass and method definitions?
2016-02-23T22:36:59Z Bicyclidine: The usual way people run into this is (defun foo ...) and (defmacro bar ... (foo ...)), then (bar ...). The macro-function for bar has to be run at compile time, which requires calling foo, but by default the definition of foo is left to load time rather than being done in the context of the compiler.
2016-02-23T22:37:20Z Bicyclidine: kenanb: you split it into two files to make it work, right? take whatever has to be in the first file, and put that in an eval-when
2016-02-23T22:37:54Z kenanb: Shinmera: thanks!
2016-02-23T22:38:02Z kenanb: Bicyclidine: ok, will do
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2016-02-23T22:39:04Z p_l: Shinmera: are you perhaps aware if someone took CommonQT to QT5?
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2016-02-23T22:39:21Z Shinmera: p_l: I don't think anyone did.
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2016-02-23T22:39:40Z Shinmera: p_l: The plan is still the same-- pray for stassats to get motivated to start working on it with Clasp.
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2016-02-23T22:40:21Z p_l: Shinmera: from what I know, smokegen works with QT5 now, but some minor module things might need patching
2016-02-23T22:40:52Z kenanb: Bicyclidine: I sometimes read stuff like eval-when forms should be avoided etc. but I guess it makes perfect sense in this context, right?
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2016-02-23T22:41:30Z Shinmera: p_l: I really know very little about CommonQt's binding side, but the gist I got is that Stas really wants to drop Smoke (understandably) and thus instead of exerting any effort into making it work for Qt5, focus on making a tailored solution with Clasp instead.
2016-02-23T22:42:11Z Shinmera: kenanb: They're there for a reason.
2016-02-23T22:42:17Z p_l: ... well, I'd prefer Smoke to continue existing, because Clasp means locking myself to an implementation again... and for that, there's EQL already
2016-02-23T22:42:26Z Shinmera: p_l: No, no
2016-02-23T22:42:36Z Shinmera: p_l: Clasp is only used to generate the C interface.
2016-02-23T22:42:57Z p_l: Shinmera: so... essentially, a rewrite of smokegen?
2016-02-23T22:43:00Z Shinmera: Yes..
2016-02-23T22:43:03Z Shinmera: *-.
2016-02-23T22:43:19Z kenanb: also, is it quaranteed by standard that they should work if I keep them in seperate files and load files sequentially like I currently do. or does only eval-when guarantee such behaviour
2016-02-23T22:43:33Z Shinmera: kenanb: For an insight into the madness eval-when can cause, read http://fare.livejournal.com/146698.html
2016-02-23T22:43:58Z Shinmera: kenanb: Well, generally ASDF LOADs a file after it COMPILEs it, so it is "guaranteed".
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2016-02-23T22:44:59Z Fare: For an insight on how to solve eval-when correctly, see a Racket macro expansion paper on "You want it when?"
2016-02-23T22:45:03Z kenanb: Shinmera: hmm, but because ASDF guarantees that, not the standard, I see.
2016-02-23T22:45:20Z Fare: glad that ASDF ain't completely useless.
2016-02-23T22:46:05Z Shinmera: Hey now, ASDF gets a lot of flak but it's still very useful every day.
2016-02-23T22:46:17Z kenanb: Fare: I am the person that pinged you on Twitter about using it for user side application configuration.
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2016-02-23T22:46:56Z kenanb: Fare: it is even more useful for me than it is intended to be..
2016-02-23T22:48:23Z jasom: I'm happy that ASDF works so well and all, but a part of me wishes XCVB had caught on instead
2016-02-23T22:49:37Z jasom: of course the dependency of xcvb on fork() likely made portability non-trivial
2016-02-23T22:50:06Z jasom: wait, POIU was what neede fork, not xcvb my mistake
2016-02-23T22:50:38Z Fare: jasom: does bazelisp answer some of your XCVB expectations?
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2016-02-23T22:50:57Z Fare: well, xcvb also had a mode that needed fork
2016-02-23T22:51:02Z Fare: xcvb had too many modes.
2016-02-23T22:51:08Z jasom: Fare: I hadn't heard of that and now don't even know what bazel.io is
2016-02-23T22:51:12Z Fare: which made it more work to debug.
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2016-02-23T22:51:23Z Shinmera: p_l: Feel free to ping Stas about it, I'm sure another reminder wouldn't hurt. Sorry that I don't know more.
2016-02-23T22:51:29Z Shinmera hurries off to sleep.
2016-02-23T22:51:39Z Fare: bazel is what I'm still working on at google, though I'm leaving el goog next month.
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2016-02-23T22:52:02Z Fare: its strengths and weakness are quite the opposite to asdf's.
2016-02-23T22:52:15Z jasom: Fare: oh, what are your future plans?
2016-02-23T22:52:29Z Fare: jasom: find a trillionaire willing to marry me.
2016-02-23T22:52:50Z Fare: which would be about any zimbabwean lady, I suppose.
2016-02-23T22:52:55Z jasom: Fare: sorry, I'm neither a trillionaire, nor single
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2016-02-23T22:53:20Z Fare: neither am I
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2016-02-23T22:53:50Z Fare: looking for options at the moment. Many of them, none perfect. Maybe take a sabbatical and work on ngnghm and/or a phd.
2016-02-23T22:54:05Z kenanb: hmm, so that is why it works when I ensure-class instead of using defclass macro
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2016-02-23T22:54:18Z jasom: Fare: well best of luck!
2016-02-23T22:54:46Z Fare: thanks
2016-02-23T22:54:59Z jasom: Fare: are you the last ex-ITAer at google?
2016-02-23T22:55:11Z Fare: plenty of them are still at Google
2016-02-23T22:55:22Z jasom: (as a side note, bazel looks really ... big)
2016-02-23T22:55:22Z Fare: actually, plenty of them are still working on QPX / Google flights
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2016-02-23T22:55:56Z Fare: jasom: it only eats 4-8 GB at startup. But then it can recompute your dependency graph very fast.
2016-02-23T22:56:40Z Fare: it scales to zillions of files and workers, though.
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2016-02-23T23:04:19Z 7F1AAAMSW: how come the answer evaluates this ? http://ideone.com/bkZv20
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2016-02-23T23:04:56Z oleo: yah, i don't get it either....
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2016-02-23T23:05:17Z oleo: if the car is (p q), cdr of it should be (q)
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2016-02-23T23:05:36Z kenanb: olea the quote is not redundant
2016-02-23T23:05:45Z kenanb: oleo
2016-02-23T23:06:11Z _sam__: car is `(p q)
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2016-02-23T23:07:59Z p_l: heh, bazel is what I briefly considered pushing our project into
2016-02-23T23:08:22Z p_l: but I might have made a misstep too much so I'll be looking for different employers/clients soon
2016-02-23T23:08:32Z oleo: yes it's not redundant sorry but when you take the car of '('(p q) r) you end up with '(p q)
2016-02-23T23:08:58Z oleo: and taking the cdr of '(p q) should leave you with (q)
2016-02-23T23:09:09Z kenanb: the final evaluated form becomes (cdr  '(quote (p q)))
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2016-02-23T23:09:42Z kenanb: and cdr of '(quote (p q))  is ((q p))
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2016-02-23T23:09:52Z kenanb: soz ((p q))
2016-02-23T23:09:59Z jasom: yup
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2016-02-23T23:10:58Z jasom: same as (cdr (car (list (list 'quote (list 'p 'q)) 'r)))
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2016-02-23T23:11:56Z oleo: ok
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2016-02-23T23:12:15Z kenanb: basically the inner sugar for QUOTE expands but since it is quoted by the outer sugar it simply becomes the car of the list, leaving cdr to be the result form
2016-02-23T23:12:25Z _sam__: oh ! so is the inner quote part of the list ?
2016-02-23T23:12:36Z kenanb: the expansion of it, yes
2016-02-23T23:12:38Z jasom: _sam__: yes
2016-02-23T23:12:50Z _sam__: ohk ! alright . thanks !
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2016-02-23T23:13:25Z jasom: 'foo is the same as (quote foo) for any foo
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2016-02-23T23:13:49Z _sam__: thanks everyone !
2016-02-23T23:14:41Z pjb: oleo: taking the cdr of '(p q) should give you ((p q)): (cdr (car '('(p q) r))) #| --> ((p q)) |#
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2016-02-23T23:16:01Z jasom: for anybody still confused, (values (car ''x) (cdr ''x)) might clear things up
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2016-02-23T23:20:01Z oleo: ya (car '('(p q) r)) is '(p q), but it gets expanded before given to the cdr
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2016-02-23T23:21:23Z oleo: it's expansion is (quote (p q)), but since it's handed over to cdr as data it gets quoted again
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2016-02-23T23:21:31Z oleo: so you get (cdr '(quote (p q))
2016-02-23T23:21:49Z phoe_krk: q
2016-02-23T23:21:55Z phoe_krk: wait, no
2016-02-23T23:21:57Z phoe_krk: (p q)
2016-02-23T23:22:01Z phoe_krk: you got me there
2016-02-23T23:22:07Z phoe_krk: wait, no
2016-02-23T23:22:16Z phoe_krk: ((p q))
2016-02-23T23:22:20Z oleo: and (cdr '(quote (p q)) is ((p q)) yes
2016-02-23T23:22:21Z phoe_krk: you double got me there
2016-02-23T23:22:26Z phoe_krk: XD
2016-02-23T23:23:50Z oleo: quote is a macro
2016-02-23T23:24:01Z oleo: no wait, it's a special operator
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2016-02-23T23:26:13Z oleo: one of a fixed set of symbols, enumerated in Figure 3-2, that may appear in the car of a form in order to identify the form as a special form.
2016-02-23T23:26:29Z oleo: special form ->  a list, other than a macro form, which is a form with special syntax or special evaluation rules or both, possibly manipulating the evaluation environment or control flow or both. The first element of a special form is a special operator.
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2016-02-23T23:29:01Z jasom: though it is legal for any special form to be implemented as a macro
2016-02-23T23:29:33Z oleo: ah ok, i see now why i sometimes assume macro like behaviour from some special ops.....
2016-02-23T23:30:34Z oleo: it's good to be reminded of that there happens an expansion......
2016-02-23T23:31:32Z jasom: quote is highly unlikely to be implemented as a macro, though I could probably a macro that accomplishes this for sbcl
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2016-02-23T23:34:17Z oleo: (cdr '(quote (p q))) -> (cdr (quote (quote (p q)))) ->  (list (quote (p q)))
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2016-02-23T23:39:05Z phoe_krk: uh
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2016-02-23T23:39:31Z phoe_krk: okay.~
2016-02-23T23:39:32Z phoe_krk: night
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2016-02-23T23:50:56Z kchndr: another scenario where lisp and the live coding could be useful is for gaming development.
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2016-02-23T23:51:24Z kchndr: just thinking in which situation the interesting live compiler paradigm can be useful.
2016-02-23T23:51:42Z p_l: kchndr: I found a surprising amount of lispers in AAA gamedev studios, even if they don't use lisp at work
2016-02-23T23:52:44Z kchndr: could be godsend during making incremental changes during live game.
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2016-02-23T23:53:13Z kchndr: p_l: do you know if it's being used to this extent?
2016-02-23T23:53:23Z kchndr: live preview
2016-02-23T23:53:37Z p_l: most didn't use it for programming at work, although some might have used it for internal tooling
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2016-02-23T23:54:08Z p_l: (one place where gamedev studios and similar outlets appear ahead of generic programming - they have dedicated *tools developers*)
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2016-02-23T23:55:39Z kchndr: real coders for further optimization?
2016-02-23T23:56:04Z jasom: kchndr: GOAL was a lisp dialect for scripting games made at naughty dog
2016-02-23T23:56:15Z kchndr: s/real coders/low level coders
2016-02-23T23:56:17Z jasom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Oriented_Assembly_Lisp
2016-02-23T23:57:51Z jasom: actually more than just scripting; the pauseless level loading also was implemented in GOAL IIRC
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2016-02-23T23:58:45Z p_l: I believe by the time they got to GOAL it allowed implementation of (nearly) all of the game
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2016-02-23T23:58:51Z p_l: GOOL was mostly for AI
2016-02-23T23:58:56Z jasom: p_l: oh you're right
2016-02-23T23:59:25Z p_l: I remember GOAL snippets that showed inline assembly for the different coprocessors in Emotion Engine
2016-02-23T23:59:25Z jasom: GOOL was used for what e.g. lua is used for toda, but GOAL was basically everything except the graphics pipeline
2016-02-23T23:59:26Z kchndr: wow, really psychodelic stuff
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2016-02-23T23:59:54Z kchndr: a real OS kernel is screaming for that.