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2016-02-22T00:16:29Z Twylo: Is there anything you can't do with loop?
2016-02-22T00:16:33Z Twylo: Is it turing complete?
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2016-02-22T00:17:51Z |3b|: you can run arbitrary code in it, so hard to say it isn't
2016-02-22T00:18:21Z |3b|: the LOOP DSL itself is lacking lots of things though (in particular some portable way to extend it)
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2016-02-22T00:21:14Z kenanb: |3b|: so you started working on vulkan api :)
2016-02-22T00:21:49Z |3b|: yeah, will probably try to get it to draw something today or so, dunno how hard that will be yet
2016-02-22T00:22:08Z kenanb: |3b|: cool!
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2016-02-22T00:22:57Z kenanb: good luck
2016-02-22T00:24:00Z kenanb: so cool that almost all vendors released drivers supporting vulkan from day 1
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2016-02-22T00:26:10Z pillton: |3b|: Have you looked in to the standard portable intermediate representation used in Vulkan?
2016-02-22T00:26:36Z |3b|: yeah, started working on that a while back, but wasn't sufficiently motivated without anything to run it on
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2016-02-22T00:27:09Z |3b|: will probably eventually have something for that too, either a new backend for my existing compile-to-glsl code, or something new
2016-02-22T00:27:50Z kenanb: spir?
2016-02-22T00:28:02Z |3b| sort of wants to try a different strategy for type inference, but will have to look at the details of vulkan's shader library
2016-02-22T00:28:18Z |3b|: spir-v specifically
2016-02-22T00:30:30Z kenanb: |3b|: btw I would appreciate if you blogged again, it was very fun reading your posts
2016-02-22T00:31:21Z |3b| has been meaning to do more, but hasn't even had much time for code lately :/
2016-02-22T00:31:54Z kenanb: yeah, that happens
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2016-02-22T00:34:27Z pillton: |3b|: Can you do general purpose stuff with SPIR? It isn't clear in Khronos' presentation.
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2016-02-22T00:35:29Z |3b|: SPIR was originally for OpenCL, and OpenCL 2.x uses Spir-V, just with some different configuration than vulkan (different memory model, library functions, etc)
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2016-02-22T00:36:22Z pillton: Right.
2016-02-22T00:36:25Z |3b|: so you can use it for compute shaders on vulkan, or kernels in opencl
2016-02-22T00:36:35Z |3b|: not sure if that counts as "general purpose" or not
2016-02-22T00:38:04Z |3b|: but presumably you could write your own thing that accepted it and does whatever you want :)
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2016-02-22T00:39:39Z pillton: I'm still suffering PTSD from the last time I used OpenGL. Gathering strength to look into it again is going to be hard.
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2016-02-22T00:41:44Z |3b|: well, Vulkan probably has a completely different set of problems :) (assuming it wasn't just the graphics math stuff)
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2016-02-22T00:47:34Z kenanb: can format handle the atoms of a cons seperately
2016-02-22T00:47:42Z pillton: I'd be happy if there existed a project which just focused on problems of the form (vulkan-map ...) and (vulkan-reduce ...).
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2016-02-22T00:49:43Z |3b|: well, "map" is pretty much the primary mode of operation of compute shaders/opencl kernels, so that would be fairly easy to write
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2016-02-22T00:50:24Z |3b|: reduce is a bit trickier, since you usually want to run it in a few passes,but probably could get something passable in a relatively generic form
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2016-02-22T00:52:35Z |3b|: though copy to/from GPU for every call might be inefficient (particularly for relatively simple operations), so you'd really want some API that also includes managing where the data is at any given instant
2016-02-22T00:53:20Z |3b|: (unless you happen to know you only care about integrated GPUs with shared memory or something)
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2016-02-22T00:56:12Z pillton: Don't ruin it with that stuff.
2016-02-22T00:56:29Z |3b|: ?
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2016-02-22T01:00:05Z pillton: I hated all that management of where stuff is located. You have to work too hard.
2016-02-22T01:01:07Z |3b|: well, PCIE bandwidth is at best about as fast as host ram, so for simple tasks you'd be memory bound anyway so might as well do it on CPU, if you copy to gpu and back every time
2016-02-22T01:01:50Z |3b|: other alternative is to have some API/DSL for specifying a set of operations to do at once
2016-02-22T01:02:02Z pillton: I'm not saying that stuff isn't important, I'm saying that interface is wrong.
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2016-02-22T01:03:18Z |3b|: i guess maybe if you copy on demand, you could leave it on GPU until you tried to do something with it on CPU, though not sure if just hiding the issue is always a win
2016-02-22T01:03:49Z pillton: You don't see all of that stuff in socket APIs and people manage to make client-server applications.
2016-02-22T01:04:32Z pillton: Maybe I'm looking at it naively.
2016-02-22T01:05:00Z kenanb: AFAIK it is kinda hard for a reason
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2016-02-22T01:07:33Z |3b|: more like hiding the network in things like network filesystems
2016-02-22T01:07:51Z |3b|: it mostly works, until your program takes 10 days to run because someone ran it on NFS
2016-02-22T01:08:09Z |3b|: or until it hits an error you wouldn't get from a local disk, or whatever
2016-02-22T01:09:32Z |3b|: so it still ends up being something you need to take into account even if it isn't explicit in the API, just you have less control over it
2016-02-22T01:10:50Z |3b|: (which is one of the reasons Vulkan is a lot more verbose than GL... they tried to hide things like that, then people didn't take them into account, then drivers tried to second guess the user code, then the users that did take it into account had to try to take the driver's guesses into account, and so on)
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2016-02-22T01:23:29Z kenanb: (let (x) (push 1 x)), is this safe?
2016-02-22T01:23:53Z kenanb: pushing without initializing variable
2016-02-22T01:24:07Z pillton: x is initialized to nil.
2016-02-22T01:24:33Z pillton: clhs let
2016-02-22T01:24:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm
2016-02-22T01:24:37Z pillton: "For both let and let*, if there is not an init-form associated with a var, var is initialized to nil."
2016-02-22T01:25:11Z kenanb: yeah, I know, but is that reliable to push
2016-02-22T01:25:28Z kenanb: it is, right?
2016-02-22T01:25:30Z pillton: Can you rephrase please. I'm confused.
2016-02-22T01:26:10Z pillton: What you wrote about is no different to (let ((x nil)) (push 1 x)).
2016-02-22T01:26:14Z pillton: s/about/above/
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2016-02-22T01:26:58Z pillton: And (push 1 x) is equivalent to (setf x (cons 1 x)).
2016-02-22T01:27:16Z kenanb: ah, sorry, I was the one that confused
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2016-02-22T01:33:15Z kenanb: pillton: for a second I was confused by a completely irrelevant thing, thinking of variable references and call-by-value, forgetting expansion of push
2016-02-22T01:33:33Z kenanb: my bad
2016-02-22T01:34:28Z pillton: kenanb: All you have to think about is bindings i.e. what value is bound to a symbol <X>.
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2016-02-22T01:34:59Z pillton: It is really that simple.
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2016-02-22T01:35:22Z pillton: LET introduces new bindings for symbols.
2016-02-22T01:35:33Z kenanb: yeah, everytime I have to deal with another language, I come back to CL forgetting half the fundamentals.
2016-02-22T01:36:03Z kenanb: it has been 10 years for gods sake, and I am still asking if pushing to a variable that is bound to nil is safe :D
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2016-02-22T01:39:10Z pillton: At the risk of boring the other participants with stuff I've said before. I really recommend reading clhs 3.1.2.
2016-02-22T01:40:19Z pillton: Then you will see what type of bindings the special operators let, let*, symbol-macrolet introduce as well as flet, labels and macrolet.
2016-02-22T01:41:48Z kenanb: thank you very much, but I know those stuff, my problem was not with that kind of fundamentals
2016-02-22T01:43:39Z kenanb: something I wrote reminded me of a stackoverflow answer I read some days ago about wrapping value in a cons in order to set a value, and for some reason I thought it might be relevant to a specific code I am writing, while actually I was just pushing
2016-02-22T01:44:05Z kenanb: but still, thank you for the explanation pillton :)
2016-02-22T01:44:16Z pillton: Ok. I know the one. That question comes up all of the time.
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2016-02-22T02:05:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm trying to figure out why this doesn't work out the way I expected it to: http://paste.lisp.org/+6LK9
2016-02-22T02:06:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: I know it has something to do with the null lexical env
2016-02-22T02:06:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/lexical//
2016-02-22T02:07:00Z pillton: Yeah. The function macroexpand can't see the binding for define-chunk.
2016-02-22T02:07:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I'm either reading the wrong parts of the spec or not understading it.
2016-02-22T02:07:22Z |3b|: you need to pass the optional 'env' parameter to macroexpand
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2016-02-22T02:07:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: How do I get the appropriate value?
2016-02-22T02:07:36Z |3b|: and you need to write a macro to get that, which is a bit convoluted
2016-02-22T02:08:03Z |3b|: macro with &environment argument
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2016-02-22T02:08:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: ah, so a (defmacro with-env (name &env env) ... )
2016-02-22T02:08:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: would work?
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2016-02-22T02:08:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Where the body of the macro bound the env to the name ...
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2016-02-22T02:09:47Z |3b|: possibly, i don't remember exactly how to make it work
2016-02-22T02:09:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: cool
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2016-02-22T02:10:39Z |3b|: yeah, http://paste.lisp.org/+6LK9/2
2016-02-22T02:11:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, the spec says "the consequences are undefined if the local macro definitions reference any local variable or function bindings that are visible in that lexical environment.
2016-02-22T02:11:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does that only refer to lexical variables?
2016-02-22T02:12:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or to locally declared special variables as well?
2016-02-22T02:12:35Z pillton: fiddlerwoaroof: http://paste.lisp.org/display/307881#3
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2016-02-22T02:13:14Z |3b| just tries to avoid any code where that sort of question matters :p
2016-02-22T02:14:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
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2016-02-22T02:16:02Z pillton: A smart person would have moved the quote from within define-chunk to my-expand.
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2016-02-22T03:06:00Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-02-22T03:06:08Z beach: kenanb: Still around?
2016-02-22T03:06:40Z arademaker: good night!
2016-02-22T03:09:41Z beach: kenanb: While (let (x) ...) might be identical to (let ((x nil)) ...), which in turn is identical to (let ((x '())) ...), all as far as the compiler is concerned, they are totally different when it comes to the message that you give to the person reading your code.
2016-02-22T03:09:51Z beach: The first one means that X is "uninitialized" and the reader expects X to be assigned to before it is used.  That assumption is violated with your PUSH.
2016-02-22T03:09:58Z beach: The second one means either that X is initialized to a default value NIL or that it is initialized to the Boolean false.  So the second one is also unacceptable for your PUSH, since PUSH expects a list.
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2016-02-22T03:09:59Z beach: The third one means that X is initialized to the empty list, which is what you want if you are going to use PUSH.
2016-02-22T03:11:04Z beach: arademaker: Good night to you.  Sorry you had to leave so soon after I arrived.
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2016-02-22T03:12:16Z arademaker: ;-)
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2016-02-22T03:14:07Z beach: See this: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
2016-02-22T03:14:17Z beach: I am not *quite* using it, but almost.
2016-02-22T03:14:48Z beach: "The idea behind establishing this convention was to eliminate noise generated almost every time someone comes in and greets using some form of day-time based greeting, and then channel members on the other side of the globe start pointing out that it's different time of the day for them. Now, instead of spending time figuring out what time of day is it for every member of the channel, we spend time explaining newcomers benefits of
2016-02-22T03:14:49Z beach: UGT."
2016-02-22T03:17:00Z arademaker: reading...
2016-02-22T03:17:49Z arademaker: thanks, I didn't know that
2016-02-22T03:18:02Z beach: You are welcome.
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2016-02-22T03:36:22Z kenanb: beach: hey! wow!
2016-02-22T03:38:01Z kenanb: beach: I had no idea nil would be semantically distinguished from an empty list, I totally understand what you mean but I would expect the second form to be considered true from reader perspective
2016-02-22T03:38:47Z kenanb: thank you, this has been a very nice explanation
2016-02-22T03:38:53Z beach: Glad you like it.
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2016-02-22T03:39:31Z beach: It is all about giving your maintainer as many clues as possible as early as possible.
2016-02-22T03:39:39Z pillton: beach: Why '() over () ?
2016-02-22T03:39:55Z beach: pillton: () is used only in code to mean the empty argument list and such.
2016-02-22T03:41:41Z pillton: beach: Do you like the fact that nil is used to represent many things?
2016-02-22T03:43:22Z beach: I usually don't think much about having opinions about things I can't change.
2016-02-22T03:44:29Z pillton: Ok. It wasn't a loaded question. I was just interested in your opinion and reason.
2016-02-22T03:45:07Z beach: Sure, I understand.  It wasn't a loaded answer either.
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2016-02-22T03:46:10Z pillton: It was good answer. Consistent with your approach to Common Lisp rather than a CLTL3.
2016-02-22T03:46:15Z pillton: It was a ..
2016-02-22T03:47:40Z beach: Yeah, I guess I just don't see the point of cogitating about it.  If I did, it would invariably lead to wanted to create a new language, and there are already too many people doing a mediocre job with that.
2016-02-22T03:47:54Z beach: to wanting?
2016-02-22T03:47:58Z beach: something like that.
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2016-02-22T03:51:47Z beach: AHA, found it: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node9.html
2016-02-22T03:52:53Z kenanb: hmmm
2016-02-22T03:53:15Z kenanb: seriously, very interesting, thank you
2016-02-22T03:53:25Z beach: Anytime.
2016-02-22T03:53:54Z beach: And, yes, it *is* interesting, because the communication aspect of programming is often forgotten or at least the importance of it is underestimated.
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2016-02-22T03:55:56Z kenanb: well, I think anyone who cares enough to write docstrings should care about these stuff, too.
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2016-02-22T03:57:07Z beach: kenanb: Perhaps.  Though, the audience of the convention I showed and that of docstrings are completely different.
2016-02-22T03:57:41Z beach: The code is meant for the maintainer.  Docstrings are meant for programmers of client code.
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2016-02-22T03:59:02Z beach: ... and this is why I consider docstrings in code to be noise.  And I am guessing that the fact that docstrings are noise to the maintainer is why programmers write so skimpy docstrings.  And this is why I advocate using (SETF DOCUMENTATION) instead.
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2016-02-22T03:59:31Z beach: ... so that the docstrings can be separate from the code.
2016-02-22T03:59:59Z kenanb: wow, I've been thinking about that for a long time. Never thought other people like that approach too
2016-02-22T04:00:10Z kenanb: which brings us to my next question, if I may :D
2016-02-22T04:00:59Z beach: Go right ahead, at least as far as I am concerned.
2016-02-22T04:04:09Z kenanb: I am currently using ContextL in my program, and I also use class documentations to show user some information about the initialization options of the instance. Now what contextl does is it creates a partial class that inherits from the layered class fragments. You are probably familiar with all that.
2016-02-22T04:04:53Z kenanb: But while doing that, the documentation of the class also gets recorded to the superclass that my partial class inherits from
2016-02-22T04:05:03Z beach: Vaguely.  I haven't really used ContextL.
2016-02-22T04:05:34Z kenanb: so a call to documentation with the class does not return the docstring
2016-02-22T04:05:56Z kenanb: minor bug, but its a chance to contribute.
2016-02-22T04:06:17Z beach: To ContextL?
2016-02-22T04:06:18Z kenanb: but what would be the actually good fix for such thing
2016-02-22T04:06:21Z kenanb: yes
2016-02-22T04:06:44Z beach: Good idea.  I don't have any ideas for the fix though.
2016-02-22T04:08:04Z kenanb: I first defined a method that gathers docstrings of all contributing classes into a single nicely formatted string. I liked that. Then I realize the approach becomes totally meaningless when (setf documentation) is considered
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2016-02-22T04:09:26Z beach: I see what you mean.
2016-02-22T04:09:54Z kenanb: now I am thinking of returning only the docstring of the main contributing class, that way it will be more sensible considering the general behaviour of documentation.
2016-02-22T04:10:04Z beach: Gathering existing docstrings in code is the Java/C++ technique.
2016-02-22T04:11:23Z kenanb: but I can also return the other contributing class (the ones that are defined in layers) docstrings as values
2016-02-22T04:11:42Z kenanb: would that in any way break some implementation?
2016-02-22T04:12:34Z beach: Why would it?
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2016-02-22T04:14:54Z kenanb: I don't know, it felt pretty safe to return multiple values but the parts of spec about documentation internals is a little fuzzy, so implementations seem to do interesting things.
2016-02-22T04:16:24Z beach: Oh, multiple values.
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2016-02-22T04:16:43Z beach: clhs documentation
2016-02-22T04:16:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm
2016-02-22T04:17:18Z beach: I think that would be a violation of the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
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2016-02-22T04:19:39Z kenanb: for example I implemented ((x contextl:layered-class) (doc-type (eql 't))) and ((x contextl:layered-class) (doc-type (eql 'type))) methods, I expected implementations to implement ((x symbol) (doc-type (eql 'type))) method in terms of the first two, because there is not extension point for the last argument list, except redefining the method.
2016-02-22T04:19:48Z kenanb: (pardon my terminology)
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2016-02-22T04:20:30Z kenanb: Clozure, ECL and Clisp all indeed define the last method in terms of the others.
2016-02-22T04:21:39Z kenanb: so I can (documentation 'my-contextl-class 'type) and get the documentation, while SBCL and CMUCL take a different approach, which I believe to be a bug, actually.
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2016-02-22T04:22:46Z Bike: i'm surprised that doesn't work. sbcl's method on symbol (eql type) looks it up as a class and returns that documentation if it exists.
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2016-02-22T04:23:15Z Bike: ...er, wait, you have a completely different method on cl:documentation for your metaclass, is that it
2016-02-22T04:23:24Z kenanb: with SBCL/CMUCL I can do (documentation (find-class 'my-contextl-class) 't) or (documentation (find-class 'my-contextl-class) 'type) as other implementations, but (documentation  'my-contextl-class 'type) returns nil
2016-02-22T04:24:00Z kenanb: Bike: yes
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2016-02-22T04:24:18Z Bike: i see. sbcl looks it up from an internal pcl slot, while ccl does a full call. you could probably patch that.
2016-02-22T04:24:38Z kenanb: which should be pretty normal considering documentation is designed as a GF
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2016-02-22T04:25:50Z kenanb: Bike: exactly, in CCL simply defining methods that specialize on class makes the one that specialize on symbol work since it calls the methods I defined, SBCL looks for pcl slot directly in all of them seperately
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2016-02-22T04:28:56Z kenanb: beach: I guess it would be a violation, yes. probably I should just write the method that return the single value for the main defining class, and rename my fancy version to something else.
2016-02-22T04:29:32Z beach: Probably so, yes.
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2016-02-22T04:36:23Z Bike: i guess it could possibly apply with the other clos objects too. sbcl uses its internal slot directly with gfs, method combos, methods, stuff.
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2016-02-22T04:38:44Z kenanb: yeah, whenever I do a jump-to-definition I see similar stuff
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2016-02-22T04:38:59Z Bike: it's an easy change at least.
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2016-02-22T04:40:47Z kenanb: Bike: do you also think this is a bug? because I really don't know if it can be considered one
2016-02-22T04:41:25Z Bike: it's probably not a standards noncompliance thing, but re-calling would be more useful.
2016-02-22T04:41:59Z Bike: bug, feature enhancement, not so important if the change gets merged
2016-02-22T04:42:32Z kenanb: spec mentions "A conforming implementation or a conforming program may extend the set of symbols that are acceptable as the doc-type." for extending doc-type. it also is clear about structure-class and standard-class but it doesn't talk about how to extend for different metaclasses etc
2016-02-22T04:43:01Z kenanb: yeah, you're right
2016-02-22T04:43:04Z kenanb: I'll report this
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2016-02-22T05:03:32Z |3b|: what would be a good name for a keyword argument that tells a WITH-FOO macro to just skip the &body if it can't get a FOO?
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2016-02-22T05:08:08Z pillton: :if-does-not-exist :skip
2016-02-22T05:09:58Z |3b|: hmm, what about if it is doing (create-foo ...) internally? 'exists' doesn't sound quite right in that case
2016-02-22T05:10:31Z pillton: Well, it borrows from with-open-file so it may be less work for the maintainer. I see what you mean though.
2016-02-22T05:11:31Z |3b|: yeah, though completely different set of options
2016-02-22T05:11:35Z |3b|: :if-no-foo :skip maybe?
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2016-02-22T05:11:46Z kenanb: I was just writing that
2016-02-22T05:12:18Z pillton: Yeah. I'd argue that the option should be part of create-foo.
2016-02-22T05:12:35Z |3b|: well, create-foo can't skip &body it doesn't have
2016-02-22T05:12:38Z kenanb: no/null etc depending on the context
2016-02-22T05:13:06Z |3b|: create-foo could decide to error, i guess
2016-02-22T05:13:15Z pillton: (with-open-file (in "blah" :if-does-not-exist nil) (when in (print "hey")))
2016-02-22T05:13:45Z |3b|: right, that's how it behaves now, i just want to get rid of the WHEN
2016-02-22T05:14:13Z |3b|: (well, without the :if-does-not-exist option)
2016-02-22T05:14:31Z |3b| supposes i could just make the create-foo error on failure
2016-02-22T05:15:37Z |3b|: (which i just said a few minutes ago :p)
2016-02-22T05:15:41Z pillton: I have debated this issue with myself for a long time.
2016-02-22T05:15:48Z kenanb: does the absence of foo imply an error?
2016-02-22T05:16:02Z kenanb: ah, it happened again
2016-02-22T05:16:03Z kenanb: :D
2016-02-22T05:16:23Z |3b|: not sure
2016-02-22T05:16:37Z pillton: There is also the interface used by READ.
2016-02-22T05:17:18Z Quadrescence: eugh, the SBCL heap exhaustion => breaking your program is so aggravating
2016-02-22T05:17:36Z |3b|: actually, i guess in this case it might already error if it doesn't return something
2016-02-22T05:18:01Z kenanb: maybe a wrapper that prefixed with safely- or something that skips on the absence of null fits better instead of a keyword
2016-02-22T05:18:14Z kenanb: s/null/foo
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2016-02-22T05:19:53Z |3b| will just assume it errors if it doesn't create a foo
2016-02-22T05:20:17Z kenanb: Quadrescence: happened to me with CCL over and over again today till I realize I need to clear my SLIME output buffer
2016-02-22T05:21:37Z kenanb: such thing happens so few times it takes me half an hour to remember Slime presentations that are not collected can cause that
2016-02-22T05:24:02Z beach: Still, it could be nicer about it: "Heap exhausted.  If you don't delete some objects very soon, you'll be in trouble."
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2016-02-22T05:26:14Z kenanb: yeah
2016-02-22T05:26:41Z Quadrescence: Or the ability to grow the heap, and drop you into the debugger (not a low level one) to muck around and clear things up
2016-02-22T05:27:22Z kenanb: AFAIK the heap problem that is caused by presentations only occur at one or two implementations
2016-02-22T05:27:38Z kenanb: but I may be wrong, I remember reading about it in slime docs
2016-02-22T05:28:19Z Quadrescence: im not super concerned about slime
2016-02-22T05:28:35Z Quadrescence: im more concerned about 3-hour long calculations suddenly dying with no recourse
2016-02-22T05:29:08Z kenanb: found it: On Lisp implementations without weak hash tables, all objects associated with presentations are protected from garbage collection.
2016-02-22T05:29:22Z kenanb: Quadrescence: what are you calculating
2016-02-22T05:29:54Z Quadrescence: kenanb, some large sentence enumerations on peculiar grammars
2016-02-22T05:30:17Z Quadrescence: (and evaluating those sentences)
2016-02-22T05:30:34Z kenanb: cool, good luck!
2016-02-22T05:30:52Z Quadrescence: I fortunately solved the problem, just not with SBCL
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2016-02-22T05:31:19Z Quadrescence: with a somewhat brutal ;; Allocation   = 241377567520 bytes
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2016-02-22T05:40:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: .
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2016-02-22T05:46:43Z kenanb: off to sleep
2016-02-22T05:46:48Z kenanb: night folks
2016-02-22T05:47:02Z beach: 'night kenanb.
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2016-02-22T09:20:19Z myrkraverk: What is the lisp equivalent of #if 0 in C?
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2016-02-22T09:22:00Z _death: #+myrkraverk
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2016-02-22T09:24:09Z _death: (you could be a wiseguy and use #+(or) etc... but in practice it doesn't matter.. I use #+nil)
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2016-02-22T09:26:12Z myrkraverk: Ah, thanks.
2016-02-22T09:26:34Z myrkraverk: I just want to remove some dead code (not used in this project) but still don't want to delete it from the source file.
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2016-02-22T09:28:43Z PuercoPop: myrkraverk: you can comment it with #| |# (probably more than one form so #+(or) wouldn't be the best option
2016-02-22T09:29:06Z PuercoPop: *if it is more than one form
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2016-02-22T09:30:33Z myrkraverk: Ah, right.
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2016-02-22T09:37:37Z _death: myrkraverk: why not delete it from the source file? is there not a repository to keep history
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2016-02-22T09:38:58Z myrkraverk: Yes, there is a repository, but I'm afraid if I delete it, the maintainer (me) will forget it's in the source history.
2016-02-22T09:41:13Z myrkraverk: And I don't want to write it again.
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2016-02-22T10:45:48Z flip214: is there some extension to the standard that allows to pass in more arguments via SATISFIES? like (and integerp (satiesfies modulo-is-zero 5))?
2016-02-22T10:50:34Z pillton: flip214: No.
2016-02-22T10:50:52Z pillton: flip214: It is possible to do what you want however.
2016-02-22T10:51:00Z pillton: ...using a hack.
2016-02-22T10:51:31Z flip214: and that's using a GENSYM'ed function, I guess...
2016-02-22T10:52:30Z pillton: Yes. It is more than that however.
2016-02-22T10:53:07Z pillton: Consider (subtypep '(satisfies name1) '(satisfies name2)) where name1 and name2 are bound to the same predicate.
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2016-02-22T10:53:37Z pillton: You need some logic to reuse names in order to get stuff like that to work.
2016-02-22T10:53:39Z flip214: sounds like a CDR is in order...
2016-02-22T10:53:59Z pillton: I think Bike has an alternative implementation of the type system which supports stuff like that.
2016-02-22T10:54:29Z pillton: flip214: https://github.com/Bike/sandalphon.types
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2016-02-22T10:55:58Z papachan: Hi i just wonder how i can open Slime with READTABLE-CASE set up to downcase
2016-02-22T10:56:28Z pillton: Set it in your .initrc.
2016-02-22T10:57:05Z papachan: pillton: ?
2016-02-22T10:57:48Z pillton: All of the lisp implementations load a .initrc file upon start up.
2016-02-22T10:57:58Z myrkraverk: Is it possible to have more than one &key in a (defmethod initialize-instance :after ... ) ?
2016-02-22T10:58:23Z pillton: papachan: SBCL uses .sbclrc.
2016-02-22T10:58:57Z loke: myrkraverk: yes, of course.
2016-02-22T10:59:09Z myrkraverk: I can't seem to get the syntax right.
2016-02-22T10:59:17Z loke: myrkraverk: show me your atempt.
2016-02-22T10:59:34Z pillton: papachan: In case you didn't know, there is also *print-case* which I find more useful.
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2016-02-22T11:04:01Z myrkraverk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/307925
2016-02-22T11:04:10Z myrkraverk: Was the initial attempt
2016-02-22T11:04:15Z papachan: OK thanks i am trying
2016-02-22T11:06:43Z myrkraverk: loke: I hope my past has enough context.
2016-02-22T11:06:47Z myrkraverk: *paste
2016-02-22T11:07:27Z flip214: ök,
2016-02-22T11:07:32Z flip214: pillton: thanks, will take a looko
2016-02-22T11:07:35Z loke: You should not pout &allow-other-keys in there
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2016-02-22T11:09:38Z myrkraverk: That's commented out, but yeah, that's not what I want.
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2016-02-22T11:14:32Z loke: I just tested here. Works fine
2016-02-22T11:14:46Z loke: (defclass foo () ((a :initarg :a)  (b :initarg :b)))
2016-02-22T11:14:58Z loke: (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((obj foo) &key x y)  (format t "x=~s, y=~s" x y))
2016-02-22T11:15:04Z loke: (make-instance 'foo :a 10 :b 20 :x 9 :y 8)
2016-02-22T11:16:24Z myrkraverk: Hmm, maybe it's because :normalized is not an a slot in the class.
2016-02-22T11:16:33Z myrkraverk: And it doesn't make sense to do so.
2016-02-22T11:16:38Z loke: Doesn't matter. :x and :y are not in my example
2016-02-22T11:17:01Z myrkraverk: Oh yeah.
2016-02-22T11:17:03Z myrkraverk: Strange.
2016-02-22T11:17:10Z myrkraverk: I'll do some more experiments.
2016-02-22T11:17:47Z loke: The allowed keyword arguments to make-instance is the union of the keyword arguments for all the initialise-instance methods
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2016-02-22T11:18:45Z loke: That's why you don't need &allow-other-keys, and that's also why, if you don't use any keyword arguments in an intialiser method, it should be declared as such: (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((obj THE-CLASS) &key) ...)
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2016-02-22T11:20:43Z loke: myrkraverk: Also, you can use TRIVIAL-GARBAGE instead of directly using sb-ext:finalise.
2016-02-22T11:20:52Z loke: That way it'll be compatible with other CL's
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2016-02-22T11:21:31Z loke: anyway. I have to go now. see you :-)
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2016-02-22T11:21:51Z myrkraverk: loke, yeah.  Right now I'm only using SBCL though.  But this is probably worth having portable, so I'll put it on my todo list to use trivial-garbage.
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2016-02-22T12:18:57Z momo-reina: Has anyone read Edi's new book? What do you guys think?
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2016-02-22T12:23:21Z pareidolia: Can someone help me with cl-launch? I am trying to get https://github.com/fare/fare-scripts to work, but I get "system [...] not found" whatever I do
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2016-02-22T12:24:05Z pareidolia: I have the latest cl-launch, latest quicklisp and ASDF 3.1
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2016-02-22T12:44:03Z scymtym: pareidolia: please make a paste showing what exactly you are doing as well as the full error message
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2016-02-22T13:12:04Z Heranort: cliki.net seems to be offline for some days?
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2016-02-22T13:12:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: works for me.
2016-02-22T13:12:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://cliki.net/cliki
2016-02-22T13:13:14Z Heranort: ah! I can't open that page, all blank.
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2016-02-22T13:14:18Z Heranort: couldn't be blocked by the firewall!
2016-02-22T13:14:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: adblock, maybe?
2016-02-22T13:14:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: (not that I can think
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2016-02-22T13:15:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: of any reason for adblock to block it...)
2016-02-22T13:15:44Z Heranort: when i start my shadowsocks, it works.
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2016-02-22T13:23:31Z Fare: pareidolia, still there?
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2016-02-22T14:03:38Z Fare: pareidolia: got your push request; manually integrated the ideas and pushed.
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2016-02-22T14:26:03Z alandipert: hello friends, is anyone aware of an example demonstrating using ECL to create a statically-linked executable? i would like to create a lisp-derived executable for linux with only a libc dependency
2016-02-22T14:26:56Z loke``: alandipert: I'm not sure you can. You need at least the ecl runtime libraries, yes?
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2016-02-22T14:27:20Z jackdaniel: libecl may be built as an *.a object (by default it's *.so)
2016-02-22T14:27:43Z jackdaniel: and it may be linked at the build time like other libs
2016-02-22T14:27:50Z alandipert: loke``, so it would seem, my hope was that i could link lecl statically somehow
2016-02-22T14:28:15Z alandipert: jackdaniel, thanks, that sounds promising
2016-02-22T14:28:28Z jackdaniel: alandipert: you need to provide --enable-shared=no to build libecl.a, and then you need to build your library against the *.a file
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2016-02-22T14:28:51Z jackdaniel: note however, that all modules which aren't compiled-in won't be accessible
2016-02-22T14:29:15Z jackdaniel: (lib/ecl-xx.xx.xx/*), unless you build against .a files as well
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2016-02-22T14:30:13Z alandipert: very promising indeed
2016-02-22T14:30:29Z jackdaniel: alandipert: that's all I can say (I haven't worked with such approach much)
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2016-02-22T14:30:55Z jackdaniel: I would appreciate, if you'll leave a feedback with some tutorial maybe when you finish, I'll include it in the doc hopefully, and in the next ECL Quarterly
2016-02-22T14:31:23Z jackdaniel: (and in the examples/ directory, if the example will be minimal)
2016-02-22T14:31:45Z alandipert: jackdaniel, sure, if i can figuret it out i'll write it up
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2016-02-22T14:32:07Z jackdaniel: thanks!
2016-02-22T14:32:17Z alandipert: jackdaniel, are you editor of ECL quarterly btw? have read a few issues, really fun
2016-02-22T14:32:35Z jackdaniel: glad to hear that :) yeah, I am
2016-02-22T14:32:52Z dlowe: So here's a speed optimization question - is there a way of providing a global variable in CL without the performance hit of looking up a dynamic variable?
2016-02-22T14:33:09Z dlowe: Actually, I just thought of a way, but it's awful.
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2016-02-22T14:34:06Z scymtym: dlowe: since you are asking for "in CL", you are only interested in portable solutions, right?
2016-02-22T14:34:32Z dlowe: I can only use portable solutions at present, but I'm interested in any solutions.
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2016-02-22T14:35:37Z Shinmera: You could do a global symbol macro to a container object, I guess?
2016-02-22T14:35:47Z alandipert: i'm a CL neophyte... but is defconstant an option?
2016-02-22T14:36:35Z scymtym: dlowe: SBCL has sb-ext:defglobal and the sb-ext:always-bound declaration
2016-02-22T14:37:11Z dlowe: alandipert: no, I need variation in my variable :)
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2016-02-22T14:37:31Z dlowe: scymtym: That's interesting, thanks.
2016-02-22T14:37:47Z dlowe: Shinmera: that's another awful way to do it :)
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2016-02-22T14:38:02Z Shinmera: dlowe: It's pretty awful, yes.
2016-02-22T14:38:04Z lieven: dlowe: that was the one I had in mind too. What was yours?
2016-02-22T14:38:11Z Shinmera: dlowe: Out of curiosity, what was your awful idea?
2016-02-22T14:38:29Z dlowe: My awful way is to enclose the entire library in a LET so that lookup of the variable is always lexical. You would call a set-var function to change it.
2016-02-22T14:38:36Z Shinmera: Oh boy
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2016-02-22T14:46:16Z jackdaniel: alandipert: I gave you wrong flag
2016-02-22T14:46:28Z jackdaniel: its not enable-shared (don't remember though, which flag was it)
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2016-02-22T14:49:43Z alandipert: jackdaniel, i'll poke around
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2016-02-22T15:07:17Z igam: dlowe: enclosing random CL code in a LET is bound to fail, because LET doesn't preserve top-levelness.
2016-02-22T15:07:41Z dlowe: igam: well, it's not random, because I wrote it.
2016-02-22T15:09:37Z jackdaniel: alandipert: hang on, it's --disable-shared after all (or --enable-shared=no, it's the same)
2016-02-22T15:09:46Z jackdaniel: alandipert: sorry for confusion
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2016-02-22T15:11:06Z jackdaniel: it produces libecl.a – you may bundle with it some other modules, adding to configure things like --with-asdf=builtin [but you'll still have to (require 'asdf) the module]
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2016-02-22T16:31:59Z f0ff: hey using sbcl.. i use stumpwm which is a window manager that i made.. now i got a swank server that i got connected to.. is there anyway to list what make this stuff different than an ordinary sbcl image?
2016-02-22T16:32:40Z dlowe: f0ff: I'm pretty sure it's just an ordinary sbcl image?
2016-02-22T16:32:46Z f0ff: well i didn't made stumpwm.. i made as i typed make and install
2016-02-22T16:33:17Z f0ff: dlowe: hmm i meant how can i explore ? :P
2016-02-22T16:33:53Z ralt: f0ff: type "stumpwm:" and hit <tab>
2016-02-22T16:33:58Z dlowe: Try looking at the stumpwm package first
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2016-02-22T16:34:19Z f0ff: dlowe: thanks <3
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2016-02-22T16:34:57Z f0ff:  i tried stumpvm:version and it said no such package or summat...
2016-02-22T16:35:02Z f0ff: (notice the typo)
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2016-02-22T16:36:41Z f0ff: stumpwm:version was unbound but it didn't say that there was no such thing as stumpwm :P
2016-02-22T16:38:26Z f0ff: heh now i'll fun for some time :P
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2016-02-22T16:46:00Z f0ff: i meant ralt you should have the cred !
2016-02-22T16:46:31Z f0ff: damn beers
2016-02-22T16:47:27Z f0ff: :-)
2016-02-22T16:49:06Z f0ff: lisp is kinda kewl though.. i guess the whole digging down in a running program.. completely different from the "make sure everything is correct before you run it"
2016-02-22T16:49:51Z loke``: f0ff: It's a much more pleasant programming experience for sure.
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2016-02-22T16:52:16Z Jonsky: btw I'd like to ask
2016-02-22T16:52:45Z Jonsky: Is it that even after compiling a lisp programme I still need a lisp implementaton to run it?
2016-02-22T16:53:37Z Bike: depends. you need some kind of runtime, which is either most of the implementation (in the free lisps) or much more pared down (some of the commercial ones have this option)
2016-02-22T16:56:02Z Jonsky: So let me put it in this way. If I compile a "hello world" programme in CI could just send the binary to my friend and ask him to run it, provided that he uses the same kind of machine / OS. And he doesn't have to install a C compiler. But in the case of CL this doesn't work?
2016-02-22T16:56:36Z Shinmera: You can dump a complete binary and someone else can just run it without needing anything else.
2016-02-22T16:56:42Z f0ff: Jonsky: yeah it would work but it would be a 50MB instead of 5K binary
2016-02-22T16:56:51Z Shinmera: It'll just be about 15mb (in the case of SBCL)
2016-02-22T16:57:42Z Jonsky: Shinmera: Well that's comforting ... :D
2016-02-22T16:58:01Z Shinmera: As an example, you can try my last ld33 entry. https://github.com/Shinmera/ld33/releases/tag/0.1.0
2016-02-22T16:58:31Z Jonsky: Why is the binary so big?
2016-02-22T16:58:40Z Shinmera: Because it includes the implementation.
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2016-02-22T16:59:09Z Shinmera: C programs are small because you expect the OS to privde a C runtime. So you don't have to ship that with it.
2016-02-22T16:59:14Z Shinmera: *provide
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2016-02-22T16:59:40Z f0ff: also when it comes to lisp one often talks a bout "images"
2016-02-22T17:00:05Z f0ff: so it the executable is just a memory dump
2016-02-22T17:00:07Z Shinmera: (in the case of Windows you sometimes have to ship the runtime, see Windows C++ redistributables)
2016-02-22T17:00:23Z kenanb: it is ANSI compliant to shadow plist keys by simply appending key value pairs on front of plist, right?
2016-02-22T17:00:59Z luis: f0ff: ld(1) also mentions images, fwiw: http://linux.die.net/man/1/ld
2016-02-22T17:01:16Z kenanb: or should I manually setf the keys
2016-02-22T17:01:20Z Jonsky: Ah ha the runtime, of course. Sorry I forgot that.
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2016-02-22T17:02:31Z Jonsky: Now I kind of see why from time to time some people talk about rebuilding lisp machine
2016-02-22T17:03:21Z f0ff: emacs is a lisp machine :-)
2016-02-22T17:03:40Z f0ff: i guess in a way
2016-02-22T17:04:12Z f0ff: one machine one program :D
2016-02-22T17:04:13Z Jonsky: Thanks for explaining.
2016-02-22T17:04:31Z kenanb: as much as I love it, I think operating system is enough of a compliment for emacs :)
2016-02-22T17:04:43Z f0ff: :P
2016-02-22T17:06:04Z f0ff: but rms said that he gave middle finger to lisp machines and decided to go with unix and then let lisp run on that :D
2016-02-22T17:06:07Z f0ff: i think
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2016-02-22T17:06:46Z f0ff: and most of us use free software i guess :P
2016-02-22T17:06:49Z f0ff is drunk
2016-02-22T17:07:42Z Jonsky: Oh btw so that's why the binary can get input and define new function even at runtime?
2016-02-22T17:07:54Z Jonsky: because the binary contains the implementation
2016-02-22T17:08:09Z Jonsky: and also the reason why we still have garbage collection
2016-02-22T17:08:10Z f0ff: yeah it has the repl and everything heh
2016-02-22T17:09:00Z f0ff: it is an image of what you dump :P
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2016-02-22T17:18:12Z f0ff: heh was a talk a guy had and he wanted to incorporate webkit into emacs.. he said they say emacs is "eight megs and continuously swapping" he wanted it to be eight gigs and continuosly swapping :P like that was his biggest problem with emacs not following the times
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2016-02-22T17:55:27Z Twylo: "Escape Meta Alt Control Shift" was always my favorite.
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2016-02-22T18:54:25Z phoe_krk: XDDDD
2016-02-22T18:58:39Z drmeister: Is it reasonable to inline the FUNCALL function?
2016-02-22T18:59:06Z drmeister: It's been a little while since I thought about inlining.
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2016-02-22T18:59:46Z Bike: sure. actually i'd call it a great thing, depending on what you mean, because otherwise every non-fixed function call would actually be two function calls.
2016-02-22T19:03:05Z Jonsky: But what's the difference between inline and macro then? Apart from that macros do not evaluate the arguments
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2016-02-22T19:04:19Z Bike: macros have to be expanded, inlining is optional it's mor elike compiler macros.
2016-02-22T19:05:23Z drmeister: Bike: I'm working towards adding dynamic-extent closures and it would be easier to recognize when I can use them if I inlined FUNCALL
2016-02-22T19:05:27Z Jonsky: Ah ha so it's more an advice than an order
2016-02-22T19:05:56Z drmeister: Thanks
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2016-02-22T19:14:09Z |3b|: Jonsky: you can't funcall a macro
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2016-02-22T19:16:13Z dlowe: I was going to say that it wasn't strictly forbidden, but it turns out that it is.
2016-02-22T19:18:12Z Jonsky: |3b|: Thanks, another distinction between them then
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2016-02-22T19:34:17Z kenanb: I am writing a metaclass that will hold a slot for initargs that is going to be prompted to application user while initializing an instance of such class. So it is a class option that looks similar to default-initargs (actually it defaults to default-initargs) but it is interactive, and there will be various interfaces of query, some might prompt for them one by one, some might add an input-field in application GUI for each of them and
2016-02-22T19:34:17Z kenanb: expect user to hit DONE when filled all. How would you call that?
2016-02-22T19:34:52Z kenanb: query-initargs? prompt-initargs?
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2016-02-22T19:37:46Z kenanb: eventually the only assumption that holds about what is going to be done with those initargs is that they are going to be filled by the app user in some unspecified way, depending on the interface
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2016-02-22T19:47:56Z Bike: interactive-initargs?
2016-02-22T19:48:54Z kenanb: hmm yeah, that is also a cool option
2016-02-22T19:49:56Z kenanb: yep, I like that, thanks Bike
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2016-02-22T20:32:33Z PuercoPop: is is a call ensure-class guaranteed to result in a call to finalize-inheritance?
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2016-02-22T20:40:44Z kenanb: PuercoPop: no
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2016-02-22T20:44:55Z PuercoPop: kenanb: that what I thought, but 'User-Level language crafting' by Andreas Paepcke says otherwise; And postmodern 'attach'ing methods on finalize-inheritance insinuates otherwise as well https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern/blob/master/postmodern/table.lisp#L69
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2016-02-22T20:52:07Z kenanb: PuercoPop: (c2mop:class-finalized-p (c2mop:ensure-class 'foo)) => NIL
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2016-02-22T20:55:26Z PuercoPop: kenanb: yeah, stuff like that is why I thought that. The document from Paepcke is from before '93, so it is not authoritative in anyway
2016-02-22T20:56:31Z kenanb: PuercoPop: it is outside the scope of ensure-class to also ensure finalizing inheritance of the class, you cannot modify a class with forward referenced superclasses if ensure-class would always finalize
2016-02-22T20:57:15Z kenanb: modify/define
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2016-02-22T21:01:18Z kenanb: PuercoPop: afaik Dmitry's answer here also applies to ensure-class http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17934605/class-finalization-how-to-avoid-creating-dummy-instances
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2016-02-22T21:11:58Z learning: has anyone here used incudine? (http://incudine.sourceforge.net/)  I'm trying to run the examples, but it says that sbcl can't find the scratch package. i tried copying it into my quicklisp local-projects dir, but no cigar.
2016-02-22T21:12:36Z learning: the install file says i need to go into my registry and symlink the asd file, but i'm on osx, so that doesnt make any sense to me
2016-02-22T21:13:25Z learning: i think there's something basic about packages that im not grasping
2016-02-22T21:14:04Z Bicyclidine: doesn't osx have symlinks?
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2016-02-22T21:15:41Z Bicyclidine: you should probably be able to copy it into local-projects. try calling ql:register-local-projects
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2016-02-22T21:16:32Z learning: yeah osx has symlinks, but its not clear where i'm supposed to create a symlink from. ill try calling it
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2016-02-22T21:17:17Z Bicyclidine: a symlink in local-projects to whtever you put incudine. obviously it shouldn't be necessary if incudine is already there.
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2016-02-22T21:20:49Z learning: no cigar
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2016-02-22T21:21:06Z learning: created the symlink. calling ql:reigister-local-projects returns nil
2016-02-22T21:21:23Z Bicyclidine: pretty sure it always does. i assume the load still fails.
2016-02-22T21:21:42Z learning: yeah, same issue as before, it can't find the package named scratch
2016-02-22T21:21:47Z Bicyclidine: try (push #p"/path/to/incudine/" asdf:*central-registry*) and then load.
2016-02-22T21:22:05Z Bicyclidine: well, maybe it's a different problem, and it is finding incudine.
2016-02-22T21:22:09Z learning: can i just put that at the top of the file im trying to run?
2016-02-22T21:22:38Z Bicyclidine: You're running a file? I thought you were just trying to load incudine.
2016-02-22T21:23:00Z learning: im trying to run one of the examples that was included with the source code
2016-02-22T21:23:19Z Bicyclidine: can you load incudine?
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2016-02-22T21:26:44Z Bicyclidine: Better, did you actually load incudine before trying to run an example?
2016-02-22T21:27:53Z kenanb: learning: I just cloned the repo to my local-projects and did (ql:quickload :incudine) and it loads
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2016-02-22T21:28:27Z Bicyclidine: okay.
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2016-02-22T21:29:15Z learning: i didnt know it was in quicklisp. i guess i should have done that first
2016-02-22T21:29:39Z Bicyclidine: if it's in local projects quickload will load it there. did you load it before trying to run an example? because you need to do that.
2016-02-22T21:29:45Z Bicyclidine: load it from there*
2016-02-22T21:30:08Z kenanb: when in your quicklisp local-projects directory in terminal, do a "git clone git://git.code.sf.net/p/incudine/incudine" then load using quickload with (ql:quickload :incudine) from your lisp implementation
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2016-02-22T21:30:56Z kenanb: learning: it is not in quicklisp, you clone the repository into your local-projects before calling it with quicklisp, quicklisp first search for local version of a repo before downloading anything
2016-02-22T21:31:26Z learning: im getting some sort of cffi error. when trying to load it now. im gonna try to debug it
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2016-02-22T21:31:58Z learning: ok thank you for clarifying that for me kenan
2016-02-22T21:32:31Z learning: i understand now bicyc. it was pretty dumb of me to try to run the examples without seeing if i could load the package first lol
2016-02-22T21:32:35Z kenanb: learning: that is probably because you are missing some libraries in your system, search for the library name and install the libs necessary
2016-02-22T21:33:15Z Bicyclidine: sorry i was trying to solve the wrong problem.
2016-02-22T21:33:34Z kenanb: learning: you are welcome, no worries, check out http://weitz.de/packages.html
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2016-02-22T21:37:02Z p_l ponders what's needed to get CommonQT to work with Qt5
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2016-02-22T21:39:53Z learning: yeah you're right, there are libraries i need to dl that are listed on the webpage
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2016-02-22T21:40:35Z kenanb: learning: it is layers upon layers, for a good reason, it is a complex task, quicklisp is not mentioned there because it didn't exist back then, but is just another layer on top of ASDF, which downloads the system if absent, and uses ASDF to load it. So once the "system" can be located locally, it is pretty much just ASDF loading it in the background. It is much easier to build a new system you found online once you familiarize yourself
2016-02-22T21:40:35Z kenanb: with underlying concepts.
2016-02-22T21:40:40Z learning: its crazy that i need so many things to write audio files
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2016-02-22T21:41:52Z Bicyclidine: the linux audio system is kind of all over the place.
2016-02-22T21:41:58Z dlowe: they're not the simple artifacts you imagine
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2016-02-22T21:42:14Z Bicyclidine: the linux audio systems, more like
2016-02-22T21:42:30Z learning: who knew 1s and 0s could be so complicated haha
2016-02-22T21:43:01Z kenanb: learning: yeah but you do not just "write" audio files, you compute them, write them, interact with them through open channels on audio server, play them back etc.
2016-02-22T21:43:02Z p_l: Theoretically it's pretty simple (ALSA gives you access to hw), but then PC sound hw had to regress to bare minimum of *nix workstations
2016-02-22T21:43:50Z kenanb: one application may be using only a small subset of those stuff, but since all those stuff is seperate things, the libraries needed by the small subset is almost always the complete relevant library stack
2016-02-22T21:44:30Z learning: i mean i wanted to be able to write sound as close to the metal as possible
2016-02-22T21:44:39Z learning: but it seems like thats a pretty impossible task
2016-02-22T21:44:52Z Bicyclidine: there's a lot of metal.
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2016-02-22T21:46:53Z dlowe: you can with arduino kits and stuff. Just twiddle a bit on an I/O line hooked directly to a speaker.
2016-02-22T21:47:28Z dlowe: But yeah, like Bicyclidine said, these days there's just an unimaginable amount of metal.
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2016-02-22T21:47:52Z Bicyclidine: on my board there's two op amps and a bunch of other junk between the GPIO and speaker. WAY too high level an interface!!
2016-02-22T21:48:02Z Bicyclidine: well, not GPIO, the wire, whatever
2016-02-22T21:48:33Z jasom: /dev/dsp gave you pretty close to the metal audio, but then only one process can output audio at a time, which isn't what most people want
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2016-02-22T21:54:02Z kenanb: jasom: yeah, expectations are high by default.
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2016-02-22T21:58:01Z learning: thank god for homebrew
2016-02-22T21:59:00Z learning: i was having issues with one lib, so i googled and someone said they used homebrew. turns out all of the libs are installable via homebrew
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2016-02-22T22:01:03Z kenanb: (swank-backend
2016-02-22T22:01:14Z alandipert: jackdaniel, so i found the `--disable-shared` option and build ECL and saw .a files. but when i run ecl again and call compile-file with `:system-p t`, it emits a .fasc instead of a .o
2016-02-22T22:01:19Z kenanb: wups, wrong place to code
2016-02-22T22:01:20Z kenanb: soz
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2016-02-22T22:01:44Z alandipert: jackdaniel, any idea why it's doing that? i built from 16.0.0
2016-02-22T22:02:18Z learning: thanks for your help guys
2016-02-22T22:02:31Z learning: got incudine to load!
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2016-02-22T22:05:45Z kenanb: learning: cool! have fun hacking!
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2016-02-22T22:43:50Z mr_yogurt: Where would be a good place to start learning LISP?
2016-02-22T22:44:20Z pillton: Do you mean common lisp?
2016-02-22T22:44:35Z mr_yogurt: that's one of the other questions I had. How similar are the different "dialects" of lisp?
2016-02-22T22:45:48Z pillton: They are quite different in terms of specification and in terms of community. This channel discusses common lisp.
2016-02-22T22:46:06Z learning: to get the basics I would recommend lisp koans https://github.com/google/lisp-koans
2016-02-22T22:46:43Z dwchandler: mr_yogurt: do you have experience with other programming languages?
2016-02-22T22:46:56Z mr_yogurt: dwchandler: yes, mostly c++ and python
2016-02-22T22:47:33Z learning: do you prefer to learn from words or code?
2016-02-22T22:48:01Z mr_yogurt: not sure. probably code
2016-02-22T22:48:04Z dwchandler: mr_yogurt: free book, Practical Common Lisp http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2016-02-22T22:48:22Z dwchandler: the above link to lisp koans is good :)
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2016-02-22T22:49:05Z antoszka: mr_yogurt: you might also join #clnoobs if you decide to stick to Common Lisp (which most here will recommend anyway ;))
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2016-02-22T22:49:29Z mr_yogurt: Is switching that difficult?
2016-02-22T22:50:04Z dwchandler: not too difficult, but you should learn one pretty well
2016-02-22T22:50:38Z learning: i would give PCL a shot, if you find that its too much text use the koans, and for more advanced topics I liked lisptips.com
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2016-02-22T22:51:36Z PuercoPop: mr_yogurt: +1 to PCL
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2016-02-22T22:53:48Z pillton: my_yogurt: In my experience, your previous experience will hinder you rather than serve you.
2016-02-22T22:54:08Z pillton: mr_yogurt: There is also the common lisp hyperspec.
2016-02-22T22:54:42Z mr_yogurt: As in "the mindset that C++ will put you in is completely wrong for lisp"?
2016-02-22T22:55:21Z pavelpenev: mr_yogurt: yes
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2016-02-22T22:55:38Z dwchandler: Meh. You'll have to unlearn/relearn a bit, but don't let it worry you.
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2016-02-22T22:56:42Z pavelpenev: after a few languages it becomes easier and you realize that most langs are just some combination of algol, lisp and smalltalk with a weird syntax
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2016-02-22T22:57:06Z dwchandler: ^ this
2016-02-22T22:57:12Z pavelpenev: but if you only know a few languages, you tend to write code the same way you wrote in your first
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2016-02-22T22:59:03Z kenanb: it really depends where your previous experience will put you, Carmack is learning lisp really nicely so far :)
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2016-02-22T23:00:07Z pavelpenev: kenanb: Carmak has been at it for a few years now, hasn't he? Plus he's "rocket science" smart :) I'd expect him to be able to learn pretty much anything properly
2016-02-22T23:00:21Z PuercoPop: when learning something new it is best to try to avoid 'learning' it in terms of things you already know ('by analogy'). It is a surefire way to avoid learning altogether
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2016-02-22T23:00:28Z kenanb: he is pretty much learning it for a year
2016-02-22T23:00:49Z mr_yogurt: are you guys talking about john carmack or someone else I'm not familiar with? (granted i'm not really familiar with john carmack either)
2016-02-22T23:01:13Z pavelpenev: mr_yogurt: yes, John Carmack
2016-02-22T23:01:14Z PuercoPop: mr_yogurt: John Carmack, how started learning Racket a couple of years ago.
2016-02-22T23:01:21Z p_l: mr_yogurt: john carmack of id3 software, yes. He is currently writing VR software in Lisp (racket specifically)
2016-02-22T23:01:42Z mr_yogurt: is there anyone else who would like to tell me about john carmack?
2016-02-22T23:01:48Z p_l: ;)
2016-02-22T23:02:12Z pavelpenev: he made some awesome games and illuminated my childhood :p
2016-02-22T23:02:20Z kenanb: pavelpenev: that was actually exactly what I meant, so many C++ programmers write C++ for years very aware of the problems with the paradigm by experience, when they do the switch they quickly grasp most of the concepts involved because they were inventing similar versions in their heads for years now
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2016-02-22T23:03:25Z pavelpenev: kenanb: yes, every C programmer has implemented linked lists and vtables :) I'd imagine there's a list of stuff every C++ programmer implements eventually :)
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2016-02-22T23:04:12Z pillton wonders how many test frameworks there are in C++.
2016-02-22T23:04:39Z p_l: pavelpenev: I wonder how much of that comes from C++'s utterly atrocious native virtual calls :D
2016-02-22T23:05:15Z kenanb: pavelpenev: yeah, those are good examples. not all C++ coders are completely brainwashed by the language, many of them are using it because they have to, and they keep using it after they learn lisp because, again, they have to.
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2016-02-22T23:05:54Z p_l: I've seen a job advert that talks about lisp, but unfortunately also C++ in Visual Studio. Visual Studio I can stand, C++ scares me tbh
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2016-02-22T23:07:33Z pavelpenev every once in a while gets the urge to write C++ code. It passes after a few minutes, but that moment is scary
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2016-02-22T23:08:32Z pavelpenev: it's mostly nostalgia for Borland C++ and my high-school years
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2016-02-22T23:19:22Z ChibaPet: Did you get those Programmer's Paradise catalogs?
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2016-02-22T23:32:49Z p_l: https://www.reddit.com/r/retrobattlestations/comments/464nep/my_current_battle_station_supporting_frantic_work/ <--- wow
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