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2015-12-31T01:44:19Z drmeister: If I have a list and I want to use FORMAT to print the elements separated by commas but I can't have a trailing comma printed, how do I do that?
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2015-12-31T01:44:43Z Bicyclidine: ~{~a~^, ~}
2015-12-31T01:44:50Z drmeister: Thank you
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2015-12-31T02:00:06Z axion: has anyone written a PNG image reader in pure lisp? (excluding the only one i could find, png-read)
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2015-12-31T02:01:24Z lewis1711: hi. are lists usually implemented as plain old linked lists?
2015-12-31T02:01:37Z Bicyclidine: yeah.
2015-12-31T02:02:07Z axion: i've been using png-read for a while and i am surprised just how awful performing it is, zlib-compressed or not, compared to other formats with the same source data converted
2015-12-31T02:02:48Z Bicyclidine: i think opticl has its own reader.
2015-12-31T02:02:55Z axion: something awful is going on inside png-read as can be seen here: http://pastebin.com/iefZxV2f
2015-12-31T02:02:55Z Bicyclidine: wait, nope.
2015-12-31T02:04:51Z |3b|`: opticl mostly just wraps other libs for load/save
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2015-12-31T02:34:33Z White_Flame: lewis1711: there's also tons of variants of arrays
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2015-12-31T02:35:02Z White_Flame: but the syntax '(1 2 3) does create a singly-linked list out of 2-tuple cells
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2015-12-31T03:07:30Z lewis1711: White_Flame, huh? I know arrays exist in common lisp. I am just talking about how the '(1 2 3) is actually implemented
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2015-12-31T03:11:24Z |3b|: in CL, a "list" is either a CONS or NIL, and a "proper list" is one where the CDR of the cons is a proper list, so a singly linked list
2015-12-31T03:11:49Z White_Flame: Historically, some lisps used cdr-coding, to pack list data into consecutive memory addresses without the 'next' pointer, but those have certainly fallen out of favor
2015-12-31T03:12:41Z White_Flame: I don't know if there have been software implementations of that, or if it was only in lisp machines
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2015-12-31T03:19:09Z pjb: lewis1711: If you use ccl, it's actually implemented by ccl::read-list ; type ccl::read-list M-. to jump to the source and see how it's implemented.
2015-12-31T03:19:27Z pjb: Use: (get-macro-character #\() to find out the function used in other implementations.
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2015-12-31T03:35:34Z loke: Is Python really that slow? I read this article where they computed the length of collazts sequences. Point is that the guy's Python program ran for 7 minutes, while my SBCL version runs in 0.3 seconds (with type declaration, about 10 times slower without any type declarations at all). (single thread)
2015-12-31T03:35:49Z loke: I mean, seriously? I knew it was slow but man....
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2015-12-31T03:47:50Z pjb: loke: well there are several implementations, so…
2015-12-31T03:48:12Z loke: pjb: several implementations of Python?
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2015-12-31T03:48:23Z pjb: CPython, CL-Python, etc.
2015-12-31T03:48:26Z pjb: jython
2015-12-31T03:48:33Z loke: Oh, I did not know that.
2015-12-31T03:48:40Z pjb: but yes, the "normal" python is slow, not a compiler.
2015-12-31T03:48:42Z loke: Cpython compiles to C, I presume?
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2015-12-31T03:48:47Z pjb: Yes.
2015-12-31T03:49:04Z loke: Which one am I getting when I just run "python"? :-)
2015-12-31T03:49:25Z pjb: Ah, no, CPython is the normal one: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPython
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2015-12-31T03:50:00Z pjb: PyPy compiles to C or LLVM.
2015-12-31T03:50:11Z pjb: Shed Skin compiles to C++.
2015-12-31T03:50:44Z loke: OK, so it's Cpython whose source code I had the misfortune to have to work with when I was trying to make it load as a library on AIX (the AIX version was broken when loaded dynamically as a library)
2015-12-31T03:50:56Z lewis1711: does the CPython one have its own bytecode or is it a straight up interpreter?
2015-12-31T03:51:04Z loke: Now that I think about it, I heard about Jython as well. Compiles to the JVM.
2015-12-31T03:51:24Z pjb: yes, it's a bytecode interpreter.
2015-12-31T03:51:30Z loke: lewis1711: it has a bytecode, but it interprets that bytecode. Incredibly poorly I might add.
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2015-12-31T03:51:40Z pjb: So you would expect it to be as fast as clisp.
2015-12-31T03:51:56Z lewis1711: er.... interprets the bytecode? what else do you do with a bytecode?
2015-12-31T03:52:04Z pjb: JITC.
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2015-12-31T03:52:32Z pjb: or compile them to native code upon loading.
2015-12-31T03:52:47Z loke: I'm testing my 0.3 second program on CLISP right now...
2015-12-31T03:53:10Z loke: It's still running so yeah, it's a candidate at being as slow as Python :-)
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2015-12-31T03:54:25Z loke: 9 seconds byte-compiled
2015-12-31T03:54:58Z loke: Not bad actually. Certainly CLISP is orderd of magnitude better than Python
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2015-12-31T03:56:57Z loke: Does python step up to bugnums transparently like Lisp does, or do you need to work with dedicated bignum objects?
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2015-12-31T03:57:49Z mordocai: loke: Ask #python?
2015-12-31T03:57:51Z mordocai doesn't know
2015-12-31T03:57:59Z edgar-rft always suspected that python has bugnums
2015-12-31T03:58:20Z Bicyclidine: «Python supports a "bignum" integer type which can work with arbitrarily large numbers. In Python 2.5+, this type is called long and is separate from the int type, but the interpreter will automatically use whichever is more appropriate. In Python 3.0+, the int type has been dropped completely.»
2015-12-31T03:58:25Z Bicyclidine: source: somebody
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2015-12-31T04:26:56Z mordocai: Is there an easy way to check whether a given function that uses cffi:foreign-alloc is not leaking memory? I want to make sure my trivial-garbage use is correct.
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2015-12-31T04:27:23Z Bicyclidine: isn't that what valgrind is for? i don't know that it's going to be easy
2015-12-31T04:29:40Z mordocai: Bicyclidine: Yeah, generally that is what valgrind is for. I've never tried to valgrind lisp before.
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2015-12-31T04:52:29Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-12-31T04:52:54Z jsgrant: beach: o/
2015-12-31T04:54:22Z jsgrant: What's the "best" a least, most maintained distro for Lisp Devel on Linux; I'm on Fedora, but I'm considering jumping to Arch or Debian, but I'm not sure due to stuff like Quicklisp, if it's even relevant even anymore.
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2015-12-31T04:58:47Z jsgrant: I'll probably just stick with Fedora, but I keep saying references to/for "Debian" for example, in repos. :^P
2015-12-31T05:04:10Z jsgrant: Eh, I'll sleep on it either or; Not going to decide on something so drastic when it's nearing midnight. Going to be smart, and head to bed. o/
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2015-12-31T05:14:15Z mordocai: How do I import a function into my package from another package and then also export that function as part of my package?
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2015-12-31T05:15:00Z beach: packages neither import not export functions.  They import and export symbols.
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2015-12-31T05:15:16Z mordocai: beach: yeah, that's what I meant.
2015-12-31T05:15:42Z mordocai: I'm getting https://www.refheap.com/113259 the naive way
2015-12-31T05:17:45Z beach: Hard to tell from that, but what typically happens is that you try to import, directly or indirectly, two different symbols with the same name into one package.
2015-12-31T05:18:11Z beach: In this case, there are two symbols named TERMINAL-OPEN.
2015-12-31T05:18:13Z pjb: what are your defpackage forms?
2015-12-31T05:18:59Z mordocai: https://gitlab.com/mordocai/cl-bearlibterminal/blob/master/package.lisp
2015-12-31T05:19:07Z beach: One is in BEARLIBTERMINAL-FFI.FUNCTIONS and the other in BEARLIBTERMINAL
2015-12-31T05:19:34Z mordocai: beach: Right, I want that symbol to be bound to the same function and also exported.
2015-12-31T05:19:50Z beach: You have two symbols.  Which one?
2015-12-31T05:20:04Z mordocai: Both
2015-12-31T05:20:29Z beach: That's not going to happen through imports and exports.
2015-12-31T05:21:02Z beach: You have to either make sure you have a single symbol, or makes sure the same function is the SYMBOLS-VALUE of both the symbols.
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2015-12-31T05:21:42Z mordocai: So I would love to learn the proper terms but don't know them. What I want is terminal-open (and others) to be imported into bearlibterminal from bearlibterminal-ffi.functions and then exported the same function exported with the same symbol name from bearlibterminal.
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2015-12-31T05:22:12Z mordocai: So in the end I can do (in-package :bearlibterminal) (terminal-open) and also (bearlibterminal:terminal-open)
2015-12-31T05:22:44Z pjb: (defpackage "BEARLIBTERMINAL" (:use "COMMON-LISP") (:import-from "BEARLIBTERMINAL-FFI.FUNCTIONS" "TERMINAL-OPEN" …) (:export "TERMINAL-OPEN" …))
2015-12-31T05:23:13Z beach: Then don't use or define the symbol in BEARLIBTERMINAL-FFI.FUNCTIONS.
2015-12-31T05:23:18Z mordocai: pjb: So I have to list them twice? That's a slight bummer but sounds good. I'll try it out.
2015-12-31T05:23:26Z pjb: The question is why you don't export them from BEARLIBTERMINAL-FFI.FUNCTIONS, so that you only have to write (defpackage "BEARLIBTERMINAL" (:use "COMMON-LISP" "BEARLIBTERMINAL-FFI.FUNCTIONS") (:export "TERMINAL-OPEN" …))?
2015-12-31T05:23:50Z beach: mordocai: :USE BEARLIBTERMINAL in BEARLIBTERMINAL-FFI.FUNCTIONS instead of the other way around.
2015-12-31T05:24:20Z mordocai: pjb: I wasn't aware that would fix anything. I'm new to all this (obviously)
2015-12-31T05:25:06Z beach: mordocai: Frequently, you define the API package without :USE-ing anything except :COMMON-LISP.
2015-12-31T05:25:27Z beach: mordocai: Then you :USE that API package form your implementation packages, if that is what you want to do.
2015-12-31T05:26:17Z beach: mordocai: Do you see what I mean?
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2015-12-31T05:26:44Z beach: mordocai: Then you will have a single symbol in the BEARLIBTERMINAL package.
2015-12-31T05:26:54Z mordocai: beach: I think so.
2015-12-31T05:27:20Z beach: And when you do a (defun terminal-open (...) ...) in the package that :USE-es BEARLIBTERMINAL, you bind a function to that symbol.
2015-12-31T05:27:36Z beach: So do your :USE things the other way around.
2015-12-31T05:28:20Z beach: This is very confusing if you think of packages as containing functions, etc.
2015-12-31T05:28:33Z beach: But perfectly clear if you think of them the right way, i.e., as containing symbols.
2015-12-31T05:29:22Z mordocai: I guess the problem is I don't really care about the symbols, besides the fact that I like to read them they could be random strings for all I care. I care about the functions.
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2015-12-31T05:29:45Z beach: ?
2015-12-31T05:30:18Z beach: So you don't care whether your client has to write (lskdjflskdjflskdj ...) rather than (terinal-open ...)?
2015-12-31T05:30:37Z Bicyclidine: the functions are just things you can call. you care about how they are referred to, which is by symbols.
2015-12-31T05:30:53Z mordocai: I care about my client not having to write the code themselves
2015-12-31T05:31:05Z mordocai: symbols just pretty things up
2015-12-31T05:31:22Z beach gives up.
2015-12-31T05:32:14Z mordocai: beach: I think the problem is that this isn't the way any other package/module system i've ever used works and the docs suck for teaching.
2015-12-31T05:32:21Z Bicyclidine: if you want your users to be able to use your functions, they will need a way to refer to them
2015-12-31T05:32:24Z Bicyclidine: which is symbols
2015-12-31T05:32:35Z Bicyclidine: so you'd better start caring about symbols.
2015-12-31T05:32:50Z mordocai: Bicyclidine: Right, but the point is to get the function to the user. That is what I was trying to say above.
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2015-12-31T05:38:47Z pjb: mordocai: you are lying, you care about symbols.
2015-12-31T05:39:14Z pjb: mordocai: if you didn't you would just do (defparameter *the-functions* (list (lambda (…) …) …)) and provide a bunch of anonymous functions.
2015-12-31T05:39:28Z mordocai: pjb: Well with this package system i'm tempted
2015-12-31T05:39:40Z Bicyclidine: it's really not that complicated.
2015-12-31T05:39:53Z mordocai: I'm sure it isn't, but I haven't found a good explanation of it yet
2015-12-31T05:39:55Z pjb: (funcall (elt *the-functions* 42) a b c) is not too bad after all.
2015-12-31T05:40:21Z pjb: mordocai: don't use multiple packages. Put everything in a single package.
2015-12-31T05:41:02Z Bicyclidine: mordocai: how did using :import-from and :export go?
2015-12-31T05:41:56Z beach: Bicyclidine: The right way here is really what I said; define the symbols in the API package and :USE the API package from the implementation packages.
2015-12-31T05:42:10Z pjb: Packages are made for projects where multiple programmers work simultaneously. Then you have: PROJECT.JOHN-STUFF PROJECT.GILL-STUFF, and you define a PROJECT package that exports things from the packages of the various programmers. But when you're alone, you can put everything (in-package "YOUR-PROJECT").
2015-12-31T05:42:27Z mordocai: beach: That just doesn't make sense to me.
2015-12-31T05:42:32Z mordocai: That's the problem
2015-12-31T05:42:50Z mordocai: Bicyclidine: I have it just about working but with the second way pjb suggested
2015-12-31T05:42:54Z pjb: mordocai: or indeed, what beach says, but if defining an interface and an implementation modules doesn't make sense to you, then just define a single package.
2015-12-31T05:42:54Z beach: mordocai: That's because you don't care about symbols; whereas you should.
2015-12-31T05:42:59Z mordocai: I won't be happy until I understand this though
2015-12-31T05:43:01Z Bicyclidine: well, if it works, it's ok.
2015-12-31T05:43:20Z mordocai: beach: Thanks, that helps a lot :P
2015-12-31T05:43:41Z Bicyclidine: what beach is saying is have an api package that has just the symbols you want exported. then your actual code is in another package that USEs the API package. that way, whenever you have an unadorned API symbol, it'll be read as being in the API package.
2015-12-31T05:43:42Z beach: mordocai: OK, I'll try one last time...
2015-12-31T05:44:14Z beach: What Bicyclidine says.
2015-12-31T05:44:16Z mordocai: Bicyclidine: I don't see why that wouldn't cause the same conflicts I'm getting now though.
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2015-12-31T05:44:28Z mordocai: Wouldn't it complain that the symbol is in both packages?
2015-12-31T05:44:36Z beach: Try it.
2015-12-31T05:44:50Z pjb: Implementation packages should use interface packages.
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2015-12-31T05:45:04Z pjb: client packages should use interface packages, too.
2015-12-31T05:45:05Z beach: mordocai: There is no problem with having the same symbol in different packages.
2015-12-31T05:45:07Z Bicyclidine: No, because it's only in the API package. The implementation code is read in a package that uses the API package, so the symbol by itself is read as being in the API package if there's no package prefix.
2015-12-31T05:45:22Z pjb: That's the purpose of interface packages: to define the list of symbols that made up the _interface_ between an implementation and a client.
2015-12-31T05:45:31Z beach: mordocai: The problem is having two different symbols (each with a different home package) with the same name in a single package.
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2015-12-31T05:47:01Z mordocai: Processing but so far not getting it, give me a bit
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2015-12-31T05:47:41Z pjb: I guess you've not been taught Modula-2 or Modula-3 in school?  That alone could be a justification to ask for a refund.
2015-12-31T05:48:39Z mordocai: So which package in your above explanation does the person using your library :use? The API package? If so, how do they get the functions defined in the implementation package that uses the api package?
2015-12-31T05:48:56Z beach: Yes, client code should only know about the API.
2015-12-31T05:49:32Z beach: Yes, there will be a single symbol with a particular name.
2015-12-31T05:49:44Z beach: And that symbols will have the API package as its home package.
2015-12-31T05:49:48Z beach: symbol
2015-12-31T05:49:51Z Bicyclidine: mordocai: as i said, in your implementation code, the symbols are read in the API package. so when you do (defun something-exported ...), it binds API:SOMETHING-EXPORTED to that function.
2015-12-31T05:50:14Z mordocai: I feel like i'm getting it now. Do we have an example handy?
2015-12-31T05:50:28Z Bicyclidine: but when you do (defun something-not-exported ...) it will read and bind IMPLEMENTATION::SOMETHING-NOT-EXPORTED.
2015-12-31T05:50:28Z beach: mordocai: Hold on...
2015-12-31T05:51:07Z mordocai: Either way thanks for all the effort. Very foreign concept for me.
2015-12-31T05:51:13Z pjb: mordocai: remember that basically what (defun f (x) z) does is: (setf (symbol-function 'f) (lambda (x) z))
2015-12-31T05:51:35Z pjb: mordocai: and what basically (defparameter *f* 42) does is (setf (symbol-value '*f*) 42)
2015-12-31T05:52:13Z pjb: mordocai: that's why packages don't have to deal with anything else than symbols: the other lisp objects, such as 42 or the function, are "attached" to the symbols.
2015-12-31T05:52:20Z beach: mordocai: A bit big, and I don't :USE in the implementation packages, but: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer/blob/master/packages.lisp
2015-12-31T05:52:23Z pjb: To access them you only need to have access to the symbol.
2015-12-31T05:52:53Z pjb: beach: it looks like an interface package.
2015-12-31T05:53:05Z pjb: in interface packages you should (:use) ; nothing.
2015-12-31T05:53:14Z Bicyclidine: cl, surely
2015-12-31T05:53:19Z pjb: no need.
2015-12-31T05:53:26Z beach: Correct.
2015-12-31T05:53:34Z pjb: Well, you would only use other interface you would want to re-export.
2015-12-31T05:53:42Z beach: I should not :USE anything, only in the implementation packages.
2015-12-31T05:53:44Z Bicyclidine: oh, sorry, i read "interface" as "implementation".
2015-12-31T05:54:33Z mordocai: Alright yeah. I think I get it. I'll try to implement it and see where it gets me.
2015-12-31T05:54:35Z beach: pjb: And you are right that I should do (:use) because the default is implementation defined.
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2015-12-31T05:55:22Z mordocai: Does defpackage order matter?
2015-12-31T05:55:28Z mordocai: Seems like it would
2015-12-31T05:58:11Z beach: Yes, define the API package first (of course)
2015-12-31T05:58:12Z mordocai: I'll have to work on the actual lisp files but this is my idea of the package.lisp https://www.refheap.com/113263
2015-12-31T06:00:10Z pjb: mordocai: example: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304240
2015-12-31T06:00:22Z mordocai: Oh is paste.lisp.org back? cool
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2015-12-31T06:00:40Z pjb: Yes, but it has a bug now: the captcha doesn't show in emacs w3m.
2015-12-31T06:00:51Z pjb: So you have to use a GUI to paste.
2015-12-31T06:01:33Z mordocai: pjb: Awesome, I think your example matches my current package.lisp in theory.
2015-12-31T06:01:38Z pjb: yes.
2015-12-31T06:02:03Z pjb: You just need to move the interface package first (or even in a separate file, since that's the only thing you need to publish for a client).
2015-12-31T06:02:27Z mordocai: Yeah, i'll just make it first for now and worry about separate files later
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2015-12-31T06:19:37Z yvm: Am I understand it correct that calling foreign function defined with cffi:defcfun won't trigger translation of it's output value?
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2015-12-31T06:21:05Z mordocai: pjb: beach: Bicyclidine: Thanks again, here is the fruit of that labor https://gitlab.com/mordocai/cl-bearlibterminal/blob/master/package.lisp
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2015-12-31T07:01:48Z beach: mordocai: I get a 404 on that page.
2015-12-31T07:02:38Z mordocai: beach: Yeah, sorry. I refactored into a directory afterward. Now here https://gitlab.com/mordocai/cl-bearlibterminal/blob/master/src/package.lisp
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2015-12-31T07:18:28Z beach: mordocai: Looks better.  For what it's worth, I did not at all appreciate your attitude when we discussed this problem.  First you refused to accept the correct terminology, then, when you still couldn't understand it with your incorrect terminology, you blamed the documentation and the difference between Common Lisp packages and module systems that you have seen in the past.
2015-12-31T07:19:37Z yvm: Ok, seems like I got how CFFI translations work. Another question: is it possible to somehow bind foreign function to translation method? I have a function that returns pointer to structure, but seems like CFFI can't know on value of what type it returns pointer and translation happens only if I mem-aref the value.
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2015-12-31T07:20:47Z beach: Anyway, time to go do something else.
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2015-12-31T08:45:51Z dreamaddict: what is the way to make the LOOP macro step by a number other than 1?
2015-12-31T08:45:56Z dreamaddict: it looks like “by”
2015-12-31T08:46:52Z blub: mhm
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2015-12-31T08:59:31Z loke: dreamaddict: yes
2015-12-31T08:59:54Z loke: (loop for i from 0 below 10 by 2 collect i) → (0 2 4 6 8)
2015-12-31T09:00:02Z dreamaddict: yeup
2015-12-31T09:00:12Z dreamaddict: for some reason, lots of quick reference tutorial pages left it out
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2015-12-31T09:16:39Z flip214: does clsql have an IN clause, like SELECT ... WHERE id IN (1,2,3)?
2015-12-31T09:18:12Z loke: flip214: you mean in their special reader syntax?
2015-12-31T09:21:22Z loke: dreamaddict: You can use BY for IN and ON loops as well
2015-12-31T09:21:43Z loke: (loop for x in '(1 2 3 4 5 6) by #'cddr collect x)
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2015-12-31T09:34:14Z flip214: loke: well, I've got a list/vector of IDs, and would like to fetch the associated records from a table - without sending more than one SELECT.
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2015-12-31T09:51:51Z dreamaddict: ooh I just timed a function and in the stats was “26 page faults”
2015-12-31T09:51:59Z dreamaddict: what does that mean...?
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2015-12-31T09:53:29Z loke: dreamaddict: It means that a memory page was mapped in
2015-12-31T09:53:51Z loke: For example, if you allocate memory and then write to it. That triggers a page fault.
2015-12-31T09:54:15Z dreamaddict: is it bad?  the function works perfectly
2015-12-31T09:54:25Z ggole_: It's fine.
2015-12-31T09:54:32Z dreamaddict: ok just wondering
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2015-12-31T09:55:27Z pjb: dreamaddict: it's just statistics on how the pager works.
2015-12-31T09:55:36Z ggole_: If you time the function again you may see a very different number. That's also normal.
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2015-12-31T09:55:39Z loke: dreamaddict: It's perfectly normal.
2015-12-31T09:55:57Z loke: dreamaddict: Unless you have specific reasons, you shouldn't care about that number at all.
2015-12-31T09:56:00Z pjb: dreamaddict: the only implication for you, is that it means that it couldn't use fast cache accesses 26 times.
2015-12-31T09:56:19Z dreamaddict: it’s just the first time I’ve seen it in (time)
2015-12-31T09:56:25Z dreamaddict: and it used the word “fault” :P
2015-12-31T09:56:38Z loke: pjb: You don't get a page fault when you get a cache miss, though.
2015-12-31T09:56:40Z pjb: dreamaddict: that's the term. "page faults".
2015-12-31T09:56:53Z pjb: there are several level of caches.
2015-12-31T09:56:59Z loke: dreamaddict: If you really want the gritty details:
2015-12-31T09:57:04Z loke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_fault
2015-12-31T09:57:21Z loke: pjb: Yeah, but page faults relates to access to memory that is not mapped to RAM.
2015-12-31T09:57:26Z pjb: dreamaddict: http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~rcs/research/interactive_latency.html
2015-12-31T09:57:38Z pjb: RAM = disk cache.
2015-12-31T09:57:41Z pjb: disk = internet cache.
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2015-12-31T09:57:49Z pjb: internet = human brain cache.
2015-12-31T09:58:26Z loke: pjb: Yeah, but a page fault isn't just when you need to pull stuff in from disk. It's also immediately after doing a malloc(), you reserve address space but no RAM has been assigned to the pages. It only does so on first page fault.
2015-12-31T09:59:38Z pjb: yes, those can be handled much faster.
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2015-12-31T10:32:30Z kazlock: good morning
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2015-12-31T10:33:24Z kazlock: would anyone like to play CL golf? http://paste.lisp.org/display/304249
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2015-12-31T10:47:10Z pjb: kazlock: fizzbuzz is not to show off.  It's to filter out people who cannot write a single line of code.
2015-12-31T10:47:53Z kazlock: pjb: whats the smallest possible working fizzbuzz though
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2015-12-31T10:48:14Z kazlock: that's the fun part
2015-12-31T10:50:33Z pjb: Well, if you wrote the smallest possible fizzbuzz in a job interview, that would very well be a reason not to hire you…
2015-12-31T10:51:40Z kazlock: its not practial just fun to do
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2015-12-31T10:55:46Z pjb: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.job-interview.fizzbuzz:fizzbuzz) There, a single cons with a single symbol. Can you make it shorter?
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2015-12-31T10:57:19Z kazlock: haha tricky
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2015-12-31T11:04:55Z dreamaddict: where’s that article about writing fizzbuzz in Haskell
2015-12-31T11:05:16Z dreamaddict: https://themonadreader.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/fizzbuzz.pdf
2015-12-31T11:05:28Z dreamaddict: seriously
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2015-12-31T11:07:23Z pjb: kazlock: http://paste.lisp.org/display/153774
2015-12-31T11:07:42Z pjb: checkout the java enterprise edition version if fizzbuzz (link in the paste).
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2015-12-31T11:08:52Z kazlock: holy christ the java enterprise edition. wtf!!!
2015-12-31T11:09:13Z dreamaddict: …you have to navigate a labyrinth just to find the part that fizzbuzzs
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2015-12-31T11:09:30Z dreamaddict: no thank you, that’s part of why I took up this language
2015-12-31T11:09:59Z kazlock: FizzStringReturner.java ... why
2015-12-31T11:10:34Z dreamaddict: although I must admit that format in Lisp is...intimidating
2015-12-31T11:10:41Z pjb: dreamaddict: there's no single part doing fizzbuzz!  It's enterprise software!  You have to  have different teams implementing different parts of the fizzbuzzing.
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2015-12-31T11:11:21Z pjb: and anyways, fizzbuzz is too complex to fit the tie knotted heads of enterprise java monkeys.
2015-12-31T11:12:38Z kazlock: is that the fault of the language or the development leaders though
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2015-12-31T11:13:04Z dreamaddict: sometimes, when I craft a decent solution in Lisp, I like to just stare at it for a minute and absorb the beauty of it
2015-12-31T11:13:11Z dreamaddict: hardly any languages have that feel
2015-12-31T11:18:13Z pjb: kazlock: the java language itself has a big responsibility in the boilerplate that has to be written in it.
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2015-12-31T11:19:05Z pjb: Even if it's true that a lisper would be able to write kind of more readable java, there would still remain horrible.
2015-12-31T11:19:52Z pjb: kazlock: it's not random, this enterprise fizzbuzz is full or design patterns.
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2015-12-31T11:25:21Z kazlock: I'm trying to use macroexpand-1 to see how defun works, but this isn't working (macroexpand-1 (defun foo () (+ 1 2)))
2015-12-31T11:26:00Z pjb: what's the result of defun?
2015-12-31T11:26:07Z jackdaniel: kazlock: it's (macroexpand-1 '(defun …))
2015-12-31T11:26:25Z pjb: (defun foo () (+ 1 2)) #| --> foo |#  (macroexpand-1 'foo) --> foo, unless you define a symbol-macro on foo.
2015-12-31T11:26:45Z kazlock: ty
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2015-12-31T11:27:09Z rjmacready: kazlock: now im curious :)
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2015-12-31T11:27:36Z rjmacready: is defun a system thingy, or is it defined in terms of lambdas and setf or whatever?
2015-12-31T11:27:56Z kazlock: its a macro
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2015-12-31T11:28:08Z pjb: it can be defined as the implementation wishes.  it should however have semantics specified by the standard.
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2015-12-31T11:28:37Z kazlock: in sbcl its a macro that uses PROGN, BLOCK, LAMBDA, and other things
2015-12-31T11:28:46Z rjmacready: interesting
2015-12-31T11:29:51Z kazlock: oh it doesn't use LAMBDA it uses NAMED-LAMBDA
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2015-12-31T11:30:50Z pjb: something like: (defmacro defun (name lambda-list &body body) (multiple-value-bind (decls docs body) (parse-body body) `(progn (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (proclaim (ftype function ,name))) (eval-when (:load-toplevel :execute) (setf (symbol-function ',name) (lambda ,lambda-list ,@decs (block ,name ,@body)) ,@(when docs `((documentation ',name 'function) ,@docs)) ',name)))))
2015-12-31T11:31:30Z rjmacready: yikes, eval-when
2015-12-31T11:32:15Z pjb: rjmacready: it's important, defun has compile-time effects and load-time/run-time effects.
2015-12-31T11:32:22Z rjmacready: i see
2015-12-31T11:32:29Z rjmacready: this is strangely fascinating :)
2015-12-31T11:32:41Z rjmacready: when compiling, declare <name> as a function
2015-12-31T11:32:51Z rjmacready: when executing, actually do stuff
2015-12-31T11:32:55Z pjb: Yep. To avoid undefined function warnings.
2015-12-31T11:33:20Z pjb: well, :execute is not when executing, it's when loading the source file. :load-toplevel is when loading the compiled file (the .fasl).
2015-12-31T11:36:53Z rjmacready: ah, i had some fun with those some time ago
2015-12-31T11:37:16Z rjmacready: for some reason i had some macros using macros and it didnt play well for some reason
2015-12-31T11:37:20Z rjmacready: maybe i was doing something wrong
2015-12-31T11:38:24Z rjmacready: pjb: can you see this https://bitbucket.org/fleal/vphp/raw/a947e7bdaa6a6f8d57e0d615b0ddf170b1ea392b/main.lisp ?
2015-12-31T11:38:39Z dreamaddict: that told me to log in
2015-12-31T11:38:51Z pjb: rjmacready: not really. Try sprunge?
2015-12-31T11:39:18Z dreamaddict: is the LOOP macro pretty efficient computationally?
2015-12-31T11:39:35Z dreamaddict: I’m trying to get some practice with it in the arithmetic portion of 99 problems here
2015-12-31T11:39:41Z pjb: Yes, it's O(n).
2015-12-31T11:39:43Z dreamaddict: it seems good so far
2015-12-31T11:39:44Z rjmacready: pjb: weird coloring, but hope it works http://pastebin.com/mv6dG97d
2015-12-31T11:40:22Z pjb: rjmacready: yes, so?
2015-12-31T11:40:33Z pjb: bad idea to restrict quickload to compilation time…
2015-12-31T11:40:43Z rjmacready: pjb: that  (:compile-toplevel) to load stuff
2015-12-31T11:41:11Z rjmacready: well i was developing with emacs+slime
2015-12-31T11:41:24Z pjb: Better define an asd file.
2015-12-31T11:41:34Z rjmacready: so i was interactively writing and compiling
2015-12-31T11:43:23Z pjb: bbl
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2015-12-31T11:45:18Z kazlock: I'm working through Practical Common Lisp and I have a question about PROGN. Is there any reason to use pcl-check over my-check? http://paste.lisp.org/display/304253
2015-12-31T11:48:08Z jusss: hi there, which symbol can match the first element in ('|(| '+ '1 '1 '|)|)) ?
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2015-12-31T12:00:46Z dreamaddict: I am seriously a newb
2015-12-31T12:01:04Z dreamaddict: but it looks like my-check doesn’t evaluate to code, and pcl-check does
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2015-12-31T12:03:36Z kazlock: dreamaddict: I am newb too, but as far as I can tell it does expand to code
2015-12-31T12:04:04Z kazlock: (macroexpand-1 '(my-check (= (+ 1 2) 3))) => ((REPORT-RESULT (= (+ 1 2) 3) '(= (+ 1 2) 3)))
2015-12-31T12:04:22Z dreamaddict: the first one wraps all of the reports in a progn
2015-12-31T12:04:36Z dreamaddict: the second one collects them, but doesn’t wrap them in a progn
2015-12-31T12:04:46Z kazlock: right, but is it necessary to wrap them in a progn?
2015-12-31T12:04:48Z dreamaddict: yes
2015-12-31T12:04:55Z dreamaddict: they won’t execute sequentially otherwise
2015-12-31T12:05:04Z kazlock: oh
2015-12-31T12:05:12Z dreamaddict: unless…they are in a let or labels?  I believe those are “implied PROGNs”.
2015-12-31T12:05:32Z dreamaddict: I’m trying to flex my study knowledge here…someone who really knows should back me up or not on this
2015-12-31T12:06:16Z kazlock: dreamaddict: I remember reading about implied progns
2015-12-31T12:06:24Z dreamaddict: lol me too
2015-12-31T12:06:31Z kazlock: and that COND has an implied progn
2015-12-31T12:06:32Z dreamaddict: I *remember reading about it*
2015-12-31T12:06:34Z dreamaddict: yes
2015-12-31T12:07:00Z dreamaddict: only…not quite
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2015-12-31T12:07:58Z dreamaddict: cond checks tests until it finds the first true one, evaluates the list attached to that test, and uses that as the result.  it ignores anything after that
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2015-12-31T12:08:25Z dreamaddict: whereas progn executes everything inside of it, and then returns the last result as the results of the entire progn
2015-12-31T12:08:54Z dreamaddict: no matter what results any of the previous lists evaluated to
2015-12-31T12:09:37Z dreamaddict: I think definitely LABELS, and maybe LET, have true implied progns
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2015-12-31T12:30:41Z White_Flame: The problem in the output is that ((form ..)) is not valid, whereas (form ..) or (progn (form ...)) is
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2015-12-31T12:30:50Z White_Flame: at least from what was pasted here
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2015-12-31T12:33:09Z White_Flame: kazlock: if there were only ever a single (report-result ...) form generated, then you could simply return that.  But if you have multiple forms, they need to be wrapped in progn
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2015-12-31T12:37:57Z kazlock: White_Flame: actually it seems that my-check doesn't evern work on a single form
2015-12-31T12:38:15Z White_Flame: right, ((report-result ...)) is a nonsensical shape
2015-12-31T12:38:25Z kazlock: Is it because ((report-result ...)) is invalid?
2015-12-31T12:38:27Z White_Flame: as is ((report-result ...) (report-result ...)
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2015-12-31T12:38:28Z kazlock: oh
2015-12-31T12:38:28Z White_Flame: )
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2015-12-31T12:39:18Z White_Flame: consider (<function spec> . <parameters>) of (+ 1 2) and ((report-result) (report-result)).  The first element of the list, (report-result) doesn't name a function or macro
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2015-12-31T12:39:56Z White_Flame: whereas (progn (report-result) (report-result)), the form you're calling is progn, passing it multiple subforms to evaluate
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2015-12-31T12:41:18Z kazlock: which progn knows how to deal with
2015-12-31T12:41:25Z White_Flame: yes
2015-12-31T12:41:44Z White_Flame: it's a special operator, so deals with subforms specifically
2015-12-31T12:42:17Z White_Flame: macros only ever return a single form, so if you need it to do multiple things, a progn wrapper makes it a single form again
2015-12-31T12:43:00Z kazlock: In the example, the reason he wanted to make macro is to reduce redundancy in this: (defun test-+ () (report-result ...) (report-result ..))
2015-12-31T12:43:13Z kazlock: and the the thing he was trying to make a macro for never used progn
2015-12-31T12:43:22Z kazlock: so why does the macro need to use progn?
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2015-12-31T12:44:02Z White_Flame: if the macro returns the entire defun form, then it could do that.  (defmacro name (...) `(defun test-+ () ,@(...make a list of report-result forms...))
2015-12-31T12:44:22Z White_Flame: but if it's used as (defun test-+ () (macro-call param)), that macro call only returns a single form
2015-12-31T12:44:36Z kazlock: ah
2015-12-31T12:45:21Z White_Flame: note in the 1st example, the macro's single return form is the entire defun
2015-12-31T12:45:59Z kazlock: macros only ever return a single form?
2015-12-31T12:46:02Z White_Flame: yes
2015-12-31T12:46:13Z kazlock: i think I'm starting to see now
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2015-12-31T12:47:14Z White_Flame: and you do now understand why ((fun ..) (fun ..)) doesn't work, right?
2015-12-31T12:48:25Z kazlock: Is it because forms are required to start with a valid id?
2015-12-31T12:48:53Z kazlock: the reason we do (list 1 2 3) instead of (1 2 3)
2015-12-31T12:48:58Z White_Flame: (<what to do> . <params>)
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2015-12-31T12:49:58Z White_Flame: so in 3 otherwise sensible forms ((+ 1 2) (myfunc :a) (format t ...)), as put into 1 expression, it'll try to resolve (+ 1 2) as some function/macro/special-thing to call, which doesn't name anything sensible
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2015-12-31T12:50:23Z White_Flame: (1 2 3) will try to call the function named 1, with parameters 2 and 3
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2015-12-31T12:53:20Z yvm: Is there a reason why defcstruct defines a class with nil slots?
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2015-12-31T13:04:10Z kazlock: White_Flame: Why does (foo-symbol) not evaluate to FOO? http://paste.lisp.org/display/304257
2015-12-31T13:04:51Z White_Flame: the body 'foo evalutes to thesymbol foo
2015-12-31T13:05:02Z White_Flame: macroexpanding (foo-symbol) turns it into foo
2015-12-31T13:05:13Z White_Flame: evaluating foo yields unbound-variable
2015-12-31T13:05:26Z White_Flame: try (defmacro foo-symbol () ''foo) ;;two single-quotes
2015-12-31T13:05:52Z kazlock: Ohhhhh
2015-12-31T13:05:55Z White_Flame: remember, you're returning source code to be evaluated, so lots of quotes is common to construct it
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2015-12-31T13:07:16Z White_Flame: also, ('foo) should have blown up.  I think you mean 'foo ; FOO
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2015-12-31T13:08:06Z kazlock: that is correct
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2015-12-31T13:09:39Z dreamaddict: I do love these 99 LISP problems
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2015-12-31T13:10:05Z dreamaddict: there’s a certain undeniable power of coding raw mathematical functions like returning the list of prime factors of a number
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2015-12-31T13:10:56Z kazlock: dreamaddict: I was working on that earlier
2015-12-31T13:11:02Z kazlock: prime factors
2015-12-31T13:11:06Z dreamaddict: :D
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2015-12-31T13:11:17Z dreamaddict: I finished it just now
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2015-12-31T13:11:26Z kazlock: is it iterative or recursive?
2015-12-31T13:11:43Z dreamaddict: recursive
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2015-12-31T13:12:06Z dreamaddict: the first ones, with the lists, I eschewed the LOOP macro to practice my recursion
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2015-12-31T13:12:15Z dreamaddict: these arithmetic ones, I’m just doing whatever looks beautiful
2015-12-31T13:12:26Z dreamaddict: most expressive, or whatever
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2015-12-31T13:15:17Z voidengineer: holy f**k Ian Murdock is dead! :(
2015-12-31T13:16:31Z dreamaddict: ian murdock?!
2015-12-31T13:16:38Z HardWall quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2015-12-31T13:16:56Z voidengineer: http://blog.docker.com/2015/12/ian-murdock/
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2015-12-31T13:17:03Z voidengineer: yeah i just read it on phoronix
2015-12-31T13:17:14Z voidengineer: something is seriously messed up.
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2015-12-31T13:18:07Z voidengineer: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Debian-Ian-Murdock-RIP
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2015-12-31T13:18:22Z dreamaddict: kazlock: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304259
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2015-12-31T13:18:43Z kazlock: voidengineer: yeah he killed himself apparently
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2015-12-31T13:19:04Z dreamaddict: oh jesus
2015-12-31T13:19:12Z voidengineer: This is awful news. Frightening and horrible
2015-12-31T13:19:15Z dreamaddict: accidentally or on purpose?
2015-12-31T13:19:40Z kazlock: He was posting very strange tweets about getting arrested and threatening to kill himself, people thought he got hacked
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2015-12-31T13:20:27Z White_Flame: not just arrested, but beaten multiple times and sexually assaulted by police officers.  However, best to wait for details
2015-12-31T13:20:46Z dreamaddict: this world
2015-12-31T13:21:13Z dreamaddict: they’re going to wind it too tight, and then it will snap
2015-12-31T13:21:28Z dreamaddict: like a string on a guitar
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2015-12-31T13:21:50Z sytse: thankfully, humans aren't strings on guitars
2015-12-31T13:22:53Z kazlock: dreamaddict: About the error checking on prime-sieve, you can just do (check-type maxnum (integer 1))
2015-12-31T13:23:08Z dreamaddict: ah, I had no idea
2015-12-31T13:23:20Z dreamaddict: there’s so many things like that hiding in Lisp that I don’t even know to look up :P
2015-12-31T13:23:34Z kazlock: thats just one random thing I learned about early on
2015-12-31T13:24:09Z kazlock: its apparently a pretty gracefully way to handle type errors
2015-12-31T13:28:15Z dreamaddict: oh wow, it even lets you put in a new number if it fails the check
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2015-12-31T13:31:03Z dreamaddict: the prime factoring algorithm is fun
2015-12-31T13:31:10Z dreamaddict: just to play around with in the REPL
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2015-12-31T13:35:30Z dreamaddict: well it takes 15 digits to choke the sieve
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2015-12-31T13:35:53Z kazlock: Someone posted a very nice writeup on memoization using macros. Does anyone know it?
2015-12-31T13:36:02Z kazlock: I can't remember what it was called
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2015-12-31T13:37:21Z dreamaddict: http://kaygun.tumblr.com/post/98251739694/a-memoization-macro-for-common-lisp
2015-12-31T13:37:25Z dreamaddict: that guy has one
2015-12-31T13:37:38Z kazlock: ty
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2015-12-31T13:39:41Z dreamaddict: here’s a fun question:  I am building a computer, fresh, blank…which Linux should I install for the best Lisp experience?
2015-12-31T13:40:02Z kazlock: which gnu*
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2015-12-31T13:41:14Z moore33: I like Fedora, out of force of habit. YMMV.
2015-12-31T13:41:37Z voidengineer: gentoo is nice
2015-12-31T13:41:44Z dreamaddict: the closest I’ve ever gotten to using a Linux system is a Mac :P
2015-12-31T13:41:48Z voidengineer: takes some getting used to but I love it
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2015-12-31T13:42:04Z voidengineer: I also use debian and ubuntu on workstations
2015-12-31T13:42:06Z dreamaddict: is gentoo…learnable for a linux newb?
2015-12-31T13:42:21Z voidengineer: sure, just follow the documentation. that's how i learned linux
2015-12-31T13:42:37Z voidengineer: I learned with Slackware back in 2000
2015-12-31T13:42:41Z dreamaddict: I mean, it’s not arch or whatever, right?
2015-12-31T13:42:46Z voidengineer: it was a pain in the @55
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2015-12-31T15:37:53Z fsmunoz: Any recommendations for a very simple web framework? I just need to submit a file but I am finding the documentation about forms and methods insufficient, it seems that it assumes that I know what Sinatra is and how it works (in some cases) or similar...
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2015-12-31T15:40:30Z H4ns: fsmunoz: bare hunchentoot will do fine for that
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2015-12-31T15:40:37Z H4ns: fsmunoz: the examples cover file uploads, too.
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2015-12-31T15:42:25Z fsmunoz: H4ns: perfect, thanks. I was beginning to enter a spiral of stacks upon stacks, I'll get back to basics since I have Hottentot running
2015-12-31T15:42:36Z fsmunoz: ugh, hunchentoot
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2015-12-31T15:44:24Z synchromesh: fsmunoz: LOL
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2015-12-31T15:46:11Z fsmunoz: synchromesh: yah, again, this will haunt me for a while :)
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2015-12-31T15:48:30Z fsmunoz: synchromesh: apropos, for my more extended example involving forms etc I'm dropping the Jetty example since doing this in Java involves so many classes, instanciations, annotations, subclassing that I would die on the beach before getting anything done. Plus, I suspect that it isn't even possible yet in ABCL for some of the more fringe cases.
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2015-12-31T15:53:43Z synchromesh: fsmunoz: Fair enough too. I initially started with Jetty 8 + ABCL in the hope that I could run Swank as well as the App Engine SDK JARs (like I've seen them do with Clojure) but I gave up when I hit problems with derived classes in Lisp (which I probably should've mentioned sooner.)
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2015-12-31T15:54:31Z fsmunoz: synchromesh: ack
2015-12-31T15:55:30Z synchromesh: fsmunoz: Sorry, I only recalled this last night after you'd said about your problems doing this, and I thought "oh yeah, I remember trying and failing to do that myself earlier this year."
2015-12-31T15:55:33Z fsmunoz: In my case the Jetty stuff was more of an example (and it works fine as one) since I have no limitations on using hunchentoot on bluemix, so it doesn't really make sense to use Jetty there. That said, it is a simple "Hello World" example for those new to the matter.
2015-12-31T15:55:49Z fsmunoz: synchromesh: hehe, np, I was aware of some of these issues.
2015-12-31T15:57:09Z fsmunoz: I have added HttpServlets with different contexts, etc. works fine enough for that (except you can't initialise them with private fields, etc).
2015-12-31T15:57:10Z synchromesh: But I'm just about there with ABCL on App Engine (touch wood) so it's nice to see someone else asking about Lisp web frameworks, since that's my next question.
2015-12-31T15:58:23Z fsmunoz: great
2015-12-31T15:58:33Z shka: synchromesh: web blocks, caveman
2015-12-31T15:59:30Z fsmunoz: I think that the next issue on your end could be slightly different though: id I understood correctly GAE really imposes Jetty, and this means that web frameworks would have to be aware of that, correct?
2015-12-31T15:59:47Z synchromesh: shka: I'm getting Clack to run on App Engine (I think I'm nearly there, if I could just get ASDF to load everything within the 30s time limit) so I'm tending towards ningle or Caveman2 at this point.
2015-12-31T16:00:15Z fsmunoz: Stuff like shka said (caveman/ningle/clack, weblocks, ucw, etc) would have to be adapted to have a jetty backend.
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2015-12-31T16:00:22Z fsmunoz: yes, exactly, you'r on it, great ;)
2015-12-31T16:00:43Z synchromesh: fsmunoz: As far as the backend is concerned, it all boils down to a function called by the server to handle a request and return a response, so it's mostly OK (modulo e.g. cookie handling).
2015-12-31T16:01:20Z fsmunoz: synchromesh: you're the expert, I am completely oblivious about that part. Great to see that advancing, great work.
2015-12-31T16:02:15Z synchromesh: fsmunoz: Dunno about expert, I'm just standing on the giant shoulders of Fukamachi, Weitz, Siebel etc.
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2015-12-31T16:03:08Z roscoe_tw: 巴魯斯
2015-12-31T16:03:28Z Jonsky: hahhahahahaah
2015-12-31T16:03:36Z Jonsky: don't!!!!
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2015-12-31T16:03:55Z Jonsky: 22:35 *** NAMES @fe[nl]ix __main__ _death _sjs ``Erik aap abbe abeaumont adhoc aerique AeroNotix aeth agumonkey ahungry alms_clozure angavrilov anti-freeze AntiSpamMeta antoszka anunnaki arnsholt arpunk arrsim asedeno atgreen attila_lendvai axion baboon` badkins bamorim banjiewen Bicyclidine billstclair Blkt blub bogdanm briankrent brucem cadadar cantstanya ccl-logbot cell__ CEnnis91 chu cibs clog clop cmack cmpitg
2015-12-31T16:03:55Z Jonsky: cods Colleen__ constantinexvi copec cpt_nemo cross Cthulhux` cyberlard cyraxjoe_ d4gg4d dan64 danieli danlentz darlinger Davidbrcz DeadTrickster dilated_dinosaur dim djh djinni`_ dlowe dmiles_afk dougk_ DrCode drdo dreamaddict drmeister dsp- dtw duper dwchandler dxtr DylanJ eagleflo_ earl-ducaine easye` ec ecraven eMBee emma eschulte EvW Fade faheem farhaven ferada_ finnrobi Firedancer Fleurety flip214 fluter fn2187
2015-12-31T16:03:55Z Jonsky:  foom fourier frankS2 FreeBirdLjj froggey ft funnel futpib_ gbyers gendl gensym ggherdov GGMethos ggole_ gigetoo gko gniourf gravicappa grindhold grouzen guaqua Guest20174 Guest88361 gypsydave5 gz_ H4ns haasn HardWall harish_ heddwch heurist hitecnologys honkfest1val hratsimihah hyoyoung ineiros Intensity InvalidCo ircbrowse isoraqathedh ivan4th ivan\ j0ni j_king jackc- jackdaniel Jamazia jasom jaykru jayne jchmrt j
2015-12-31T16:03:55Z Jonsky: dz jeaye Jesin joast joga john-mcaleely johs joneshf-laptop jonh Jonsky joshe josteink jself jsgrant jsnell jtz jurov justinabrahms justinmcp_ k4rtik kalzz Karl_Dscc karswell katco kazlock keix Khisanth killmaster kjeldahl kobain Kruppe kushal l04m33 l1x lancetw larme lemoinem les LiamH lieven lnostdal__ loke loke_ Lord_Nightmare Lord_of_Life low-profile lpaste_ luis lvh lxpz m0li mach malbertife Mandus manuel_ marc
2015-12-31T16:03:55Z Jonsky: oecc martinhath micro____ MikeSeth minion MinnowTaur mishoo__ misv mlrutherford mnoonan moei Mon_Ouie mood moore33 mordocai moredhel MrCuddle mrSpec MrWoohoo MrWoohoo2 msb mtd mtl musegarden3 mvilleneuve mwehner myrkraverk NaNDude Neet neuri8 NeverDie newcup ngrud NhanH nicdev nightfly Nikotiini nisstyre Noname___ nopf norfumpit nowhere_man nydel nzambe o`connor Ober octophore Oddity oGMo Oladon oleo omilu opcode os
2015-12-31T16:03:55Z Jonsky: karth otwieracz over ozzloy p_l papachan Patzy pchrist peppermachete Petit_Dejeuner phadthai phoe_krk phryk pillton pjb PlasmaStar pok pootler_ Posterdati profess prxq puchacz PuercoPop pwned pwnie Quadrescence quasisane quazimodo radioninja_work ramky ramus reb`` renard_ replcated rhg135 rick-monster Riviera Robdgreat roscoe_tw rtoym russell-- rvchangue rvirding ryan_vw sakalli SAL9000 salva samebcha1e saruta sbrya
2015-12-31T16:03:56Z Jonsky: nt schoppenhauer scymtym sebboh seg sekrit sellout sepi` setheus sfa shifty shikhin SHODAN sid_cypher sigjuice SilentEcho sivoais SlashLife smull snits someone spacebat specbot splittist ssake sshirokov stokachu stux|RC Subfusc sulky surrounder swflint switchp0rt synchromesh sytse sz0 taij33n tanuzzo TDT tessier Th30n theBlackDragon thomas thoto tippenein tkd TMA TMM tobel tokenrove tokik tomaw Tordek trig-ger trini
2015-12-31T16:03:56Z Jonsky: tr0n Tristam trn troydm tumdum tuxbrave_ vaitel vap1 varjag vert2 vhost- Viaken victor_lowther vlatkoB vlnx voidengineer voidlily vsync Vulcan00 vxxe wailord Walex2 wglb whartung White_Flame whiteline wizzo wolf_mozart wooden wyan Xach XachX xantoz xaotuk_ Xof xorox90 xrash xristos yang yauz_2 yeltzooo yeticry yrk Yuuhi yvm z0d zacts zaquest zbigniew zeraceth zeroish Zhivago zickzackv Zotan zotherstupidguy zwdr zymu
2015-12-31T16:03:57Z Jonsky: rgy zyoung |3b|
2015-12-31T16:04:04Z Cthulhux`: LOL.
2015-12-31T16:04:07Z farhaven: let me guess
2015-12-31T16:04:08Z Cthulhux`: another.
2015-12-31T16:04:09Z Jonsky: OH why???
2015-12-31T16:04:12Z farhaven: emacs irc client?
2015-12-31T16:04:20Z Jonsky: why does my keyboard so weird!!!
2015-12-31T16:04:21Z Cthulhux`: ERC works for me :|
2015-12-31T16:04:34Z myrkraverk: Yeah, looks like the emacs irc client - again.
2015-12-31T16:04:36Z schoppenhauer:   /ignore Jonsky
2015-12-31T16:04:45Z myrkraverk: I thought that bug was fixed like 10 years ago.
2015-12-31T16:04:52Z hitecnologys: Err.
2015-12-31T16:04:56Z mrSpec: myrkraverk: no ;)
2015-12-31T16:04:57Z hitecnologys: What the hell was that?
2015-12-31T16:05:13Z mrSpec: hitecnologys: emacs irc client… as always? ;)
2015-12-31T16:05:25Z myrkraverk: hitecnologys: there's a "feature" in erc that causes people to randomly paste the names of the current users into the erc buffer.
2015-12-31T16:05:25Z Jonsky: sorry guys....
2015-12-31T16:05:33Z hitecnologys: I see.
2015-12-31T16:05:38Z myrkraverk: I don't even remember how to trigger it.
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2015-12-31T16:05:54Z Jonsky: I don't know either. It just does it.
2015-12-31T16:06:10Z badkins: Jonsky: if you happen to be on OSX, Limechat is an awesome IRC client :)
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2015-12-31T16:06:17Z Jonsky: I'm....
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2015-12-31T16:06:27Z synchromesh is glad he chose Circe instead of ERC
2015-12-31T16:06:37Z Jonsky: And I feel a bit guilty for enjoying OSX
2015-12-31T16:06:42Z hitecnologys: Gosh, why would anyone use ERC? There are perfectly good, working others clients that DONT'T do such stuff (like pasting random garbage whereever they can).
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2015-12-31T16:06:59Z Jonsky: I'm using RCIRC...
2015-12-31T16:07:00Z hitecnologys: I mean seriously, what advantaged does ERC have?
2015-12-31T16:07:11Z myrkraverk: there are legit features in ERC.
2015-12-31T16:07:21Z myrkraverk: I like it, though I don't use it right now.
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2015-12-31T16:07:44Z Jonsky: I don't need a lot of features so I chose this simple thing.
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2015-12-31T16:09:41Z Cthulhux`: hm.. is there already a letsencrypt client in lisp?
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2015-12-31T16:09:58Z fsmunoz: hitecnologys: the main decision is to use an Emacs client or one outside Emacs. Using something outside Emacs carries several disadvantages.
2015-12-31T16:10:21Z fsmunoz: hitecnologys: that said, I use rcirc because it was the default and never needed more
2015-12-31T16:10:48Z fsmunoz: M-x irc RET in Emacs launches rcirc.
2015-12-31T16:11:23Z Petit_Dejeuner: Jonsky: Welcome to IRC.
2015-12-31T16:11:51Z Jonsky: Petit_Dejeuner: Merci
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2015-12-31T16:12:13Z antoszka: myrkraverk: The bug has never been fixed apparently. It just happens every few weeks.
2015-12-31T16:12:46Z myrkraverk: antoszka: ok, I'll try to hunt it down if/when I start to use erc again.
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2015-12-31T16:13:36Z hitecnologys: fsmunoz: mmm, I have several arguments against that but... I don't do want to go all off-topic and start another holy war. Though temptation is huge.
2015-12-31T16:14:05Z myrkraverk: I've fixed minor bugs in erc before.
2015-12-31T16:15:42Z fsmunoz: hitecnologys: sure. Although it is the kind of stuff that being so dependent on personal taste, preference and workflow that I find it hard to debate in universal terms.
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2015-12-31T16:16:39Z DeadTrickster: Jonsky, hmm?
2015-12-31T16:16:41Z hitecnologys: fsmunoz: right, I find that point valid.
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2015-12-31T16:21:07Z j_king: i've been enjoying Textual quite a bit https://www.codeux.com/textual/
2015-12-31T16:21:14Z j_king: if you're an osx user I recommend it
2015-12-31T16:22:52Z mordocai: Cthulhux`: AFAIK the answer to your question is no.
2015-12-31T16:23:04Z Cthulhux`: :(
2015-12-31T16:23:22Z mordocai: hitecnologys: For what it is worth, i've never had any problems with erc giving random output. I think the problems are user error not erc.
2015-12-31T16:23:25Z sid_cypher: good thing i was summoned by an erc bug, i see a lispweb discussion!
2015-12-31T16:23:58Z mordocai: Cthulhux`: I mean, for most people you just use their pre-written client and put the cert file in the right place. Not sure if we NEED a letsencrypt lisp client.
2015-12-31T16:23:59Z synchromesh: sid_cypher: Yes, not so much "slow to respond" as "responds in the wrong channel" :)
2015-12-31T16:24:19Z Cthulhux`: mordocai, i just dislike python .. :-)
2015-12-31T16:25:05Z mordocai: Cthulhux`: Same yeah, it is used everywhere in linux distros though so i've learned to tolerate it
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2015-12-31T16:25:16Z Cthulhux`: i don't use linux.
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2015-12-31T16:27:34Z sid_cypher: synchromesh: you were writing something about ABCL, Jetty and App Engine. Figured it out?
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2015-12-31T16:28:45Z synchromesh: sid_cypher: I have a working theory that my latest error is due to App Engine pulling the plug after 30s. Everything works swimmingly in the development server.
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2015-12-31T16:30:10Z sid_cypher: synchromesh: good luck testing that theory :)
2015-12-31T16:30:14Z synchromesh: sid_cypher: So I'm pretty sure I'm /this close/
2015-12-31T16:30:22Z synchromesh holds fingers very close together
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2015-12-31T16:30:52Z fsmunoz: synchromesh: I had similar issues in bluemix, fortunately I am able to specify the timeout and also have a pre-launch "compile" stage that at least allows me to download the deps via quicklis and maven.
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2015-12-31T16:31:15Z fsmunoz: synchromesh: debugging it was a PITA though
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2015-12-31T16:31:42Z synchromesh: I think I can split the "start up ABCL" phase from the "ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM" phase, at least for testing porpoises.
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2015-12-31T16:32:54Z synchromesh: fsmunoz: Debuggging this in the cloud was a PITA to start with, undocumented Java logging wierdness meant I didn't even get any log messages for the first day or so.
2015-12-31T16:33:22Z synchromesh: s/wierdness/weirdness
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2015-12-31T16:34:05Z fsmunoz: synchromesh: same here, I was completely blind testing. In my case I found out that I lacked a small trick, addind ";sleep 1d" to the end of the exec command. Without that the restarts were automatic and no debug at generated since it is based on a delete/redeploy pattern.
2015-12-31T16:34:25Z fsmunoz: (this is only applicable to heroky/cf/bluemix types)
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2015-12-31T16:35:13Z antoszka: myrkraverk: Cool :)
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2015-12-31T16:35:40Z antoszka: myrkraverk: I tried triggering it a few times (to no avail) when using erc, but then I went back to irssi and lost interest.
2015-12-31T16:35:41Z synchromesh feels bad he didn't include any ABCL maintainers in the list of giants' shoulders he's standing on
2015-12-31T16:35:52Z myrkraverk: ok
2015-12-31T16:37:18Z sid_cypher: Cthulhux`: when i expressed interest in using Let's Encrypt in my lisp web stack, the advice i got is to generate the certificate manually, using the "letsencrypt certonly --manual" feature as a guidance.
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2015-12-31T16:38:43Z sid_cypher: i expect that this way will allow me to understand what steps are required and integrate the in my lisp code as a minimal client.
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2015-12-31T16:40:05Z Cthulhux`: hm.
2015-12-31T16:40:10Z Cthulhux`: ok, could work
2015-12-31T16:41:38Z joshe: fwiw, this is the spec to implement a letsencrypt client against: https://letsencrypt.github.io/acme-spec/
2015-12-31T16:42:12Z myrkraverk: Jonsky: where did you get erc from?
2015-12-31T16:42:22Z myrkraverk: Is there a chance it's an old version?
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2015-12-31T16:47:18Z Jonsky: i use rcirc
2015-12-31T16:47:33Z Jonsky: Because it comes with emacs and I don't have to tweak it
2015-12-31T16:48:23Z myrkraverk: Jonsky: so your bug earlier was not an erc bug? but rcirc?  Or something else?
2015-12-31T16:49:00Z Jonsky: I guess I just pressed something stupid.
2015-12-31T16:49:19Z Jonsky: It happened a few times but I never figured out the reason
2015-12-31T16:49:32Z myrkraverk: Ok, it used to be very common with erc.
2015-12-31T16:49:40Z myrkraverk: Maybe it's been fixed in erc.
2015-12-31T16:50:26Z Jonsky: I guess everything will be fine if I slow down a bit every time I use irc.
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2015-12-31T18:45:31Z mordocai: Xach: Are you around? Do you think my lisp library that uses http://foo.wyrd.name/en:bearlibterminal would violate the "obscure foreign library rule" for inclusion in quicklisp? Should I even bother opening an issue? (bearlibterminal is not in any linux package repos that I know of)
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2015-12-31T19:11:18Z faheem: What's with these idiots listing user names? Some kind of pointless game?
2015-12-31T19:11:33Z faheem: Sometimes they look like bots.
2015-12-31T19:11:55Z faheem: Oh, I see. Some kind of bug.
2015-12-31T19:12:42Z mordocai: Apparently yeah
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2015-12-31T19:31:10Z drdo: I've used ERC for years and that has never happened
2015-12-31T19:32:31Z mordocai: Same
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2015-12-31T19:35:02Z goglosh is now wondering if it was his client who did that
2015-12-31T19:35:29Z mordocai shrugs
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2015-12-31T19:37:12Z goglosh: I'd hate to be that annoying, I also don't know if it's due to the gentoo package
2015-12-31T19:37:35Z drdo: I've also used gentoo for years :P
2015-12-31T19:37:53Z goglosh: oh well, who knows then
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2015-12-31T19:41:07Z goglosh: idk what I did, w/e
2015-12-31T19:42:34Z drdo: Maybe You just accidentally went M-< C-space M-> M-w C-y
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2015-12-31T19:43:44Z goglosh: nope
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2015-12-31T19:44:00Z goglosh: did I send all them nicknames again?
2015-12-31T19:44:05Z drdo: nope
2015-12-31T19:44:07Z goglosh: ah
2015-12-31T19:44:29Z goglosh: then Idk what's wrong with this thing.
2015-12-31T19:44:53Z goglosh: anyway, I'll get to that later
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2015-12-31T20:33:13Z mordocai: Anyone have any idea what could cause all these UIOP warnings? https://www.refheap.com/113269. Trying to get rid of my warnings if possible. https://gitlab.com/mordocai/cl-bearlibterminal/tree/master
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2015-12-31T20:34:33Z Bicyclidine: does that happen every time? because i doubt that has anything to do with you, since you're not making your own package system or whatever
2015-12-31T20:34:53Z mordocai: Let me try it again, I just assumed it would happen every time.
2015-12-31T20:35:13Z Bicyclidine: Becuase what those warnings are saying is that UIOP internal functions are being redefined.
2015-12-31T20:35:26Z mordocai: Bicyclidine: Right, I'm just not sure what could be redefining them
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2015-12-31T20:36:27Z mordocai: Hmmmm... yeah seems to happen every time. I'm in sly though, i'll try on a raw sbcl repl
2015-12-31T20:37:04Z Bicyclidine: that's really bizarre.
2015-12-31T20:37:07Z mordocai: Interesting. Doesn't appear to happen in a raw terminal
2015-12-31T20:37:26Z mordocai: Maybe sly is doing something weird
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2015-12-31T20:41:18Z scymtym: mordocai: maybe sly depends on a newer asdf/uiop causing it to self-update to the newer version?
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2015-12-31T20:41:36Z mordocai: scymtym: Yeah maybe
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2015-12-31T20:42:00Z Bicyclidine: i figured an update, but if it's happening more than once i don't know.
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2015-12-31T20:43:59Z mordocai: Bicyclidine: Well I guess it depends on what you mean by more than once. It happens every time I quickload in a new image.
2015-12-31T20:44:50Z mordocai: Not if I quickload again in the same image
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2015-12-31T22:23:14Z jasom: mordocai: likely you have a newer asdf somewhere in your asdf search path
2015-12-31T22:24:13Z jasom: mordocai: you have a few options: 1) load the newer asdf and save an image and use that from now on 2) Upgrade your lisp implementation and remove asdf from your search path
2015-12-31T22:24:43Z jasom: oh, and with #1, you'll want to tell asdf to reload its config on startup (I don't recall what function it is you call, but it's documented in asdf)
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2015-12-31T23:13:34Z pwnie:  How would I list the definition of a function I created in slime? I want to put all the functions I recently created in a single file but I need a simple way to extract the definitions of each. I know the names of each
2015-12-31T23:15:27Z jasom: pwnie: I'm not sure that there is a way; I switched to always defining functions in a scratch file and recompiling that file when I changed one.  Then if I want it later I just M-. to get to it and copy-paste
2015-12-31T23:16:03Z White_Flame: there's always (defun  M-p to search the history, but that'll only work if the defun isn't nested in or macroexpanded from something else
2015-12-31T23:16:25Z White_Flame: and will scroll through obsolete definitions that have been overridden by newer defuns of the same name
2015-12-31T23:16:26Z |3b|``` goes the other way, always working in a .lisp file and moving extra junk out of it after a while
2015-12-31T23:16:30Z |3b|``` is now known as |3b|
2015-12-31T23:16:56Z pwnie: jasom: And you in slime you just loaded the functions when you needed to test them?
2015-12-31T23:17:10Z pwnie: Sorry, very new to lisp and the whole emacs and slime enviroment
2015-12-31T23:17:36Z jasom: |3b|: same basic idea
2015-12-31T23:17:38Z White_Flame: but yes, I also do & recommend editing your lisp code in files, instead of directly ont he repl
2015-12-31T23:17:51Z pwnie: Oh okay
2015-12-31T23:18:01Z jasom: pwnie: any file that ends in .lisp cam be compiled with C-c C-k if you are connected with slime
2015-12-31T23:18:12Z pwnie: Been doing it straight in the repl White_Flame
2015-12-31T23:18:17Z pwnie: Thanks jasom
2015-12-31T23:18:28Z White_Flame: but M-p (commonly Alt-p) does scroll through your SLIME repl history, and will filter by prefix anything youv'e already typed there
2015-12-31T23:18:52Z pwnie: Oh alright, been using M-p but didnt know it could do prefix filtering
2015-12-31T23:18:53Z jasom: pwnie: yeah I forgot you can do (defun name-of-function M-p
2015-12-31T23:18:53Z pwnie: Nice
2015-12-31T23:20:07Z |3b|: you can compile individual definitions in a .lisp file with C-c C-c, or evaluate them with C-x C-e after the ), or you can use C-M-x on them (the 3 options have differences, so you might want to check the docs on them for the details)
2015-12-31T23:20:50Z |3b|: useful variants include C-u C-c C-c to recompile a function with full debug, and C-u C-x C-e to print the results/output of the evaluation into the buffer
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2015-12-31T23:21:38Z jasom: note that recompiling individual functions may cause your program to become non-conforming
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2015-12-31T23:21:46Z |3b|: another useful variant is C-c I  at the opening ( of a form to evaluate the form and inspect the result
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2015-12-31T23:22:26Z jasom: C-u C-x C-e is quite useful; I've considered giving it a shorter binding
2015-12-31T23:22:28Z |3b|: jasom: well, reloading whole files could do that too depending on the contents
2015-12-31T23:23:02Z jasom: |3b|: but I feel like you have to at least *try*
2015-12-31T23:24:05Z |3b|: and frequently when recompiling individual functions they weren't even functioning properly anyway :p
2015-12-31T23:24:29Z jasom: |3b|: but you may find that you recompile and if you are indirectly calling it you still use the old one
2015-12-31T23:25:52Z |3b|: sure, that's not exactly "non-conforming" though, it just means you need to recompile some call sites
2015-12-31T23:26:12Z |3b|: it is perfectly valid to have a current definition of a function while an old definition is still in use
2015-12-31T23:26:23Z White_Flame: especially if it's live on the stack in another thread
2015-12-31T23:26:34Z |3b|: or even on same thread :p
2015-12-31T23:26:42Z |3b|: or was declared INLINE
2015-12-31T23:27:35Z |3b|: or the case you are probably talking about, was compiled with other things as part of a compilation unit on an implementation that takes advantage of the permission to optimize that case
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