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2015-12-25T00:08:42Z Fare: (setq a b) is still the same as (set 'a b), isn't it?
2015-12-25T00:08:51Z Fare: well, for global variables
2015-12-25T00:08:57Z Fare: not so for lexical variables
2015-12-25T00:09:08Z |3b|: right, i think lexical variables is the main difference
2015-12-25T00:09:26Z |3b|: also symbol macros i think
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2015-12-25T00:45:13Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/303103 A while ago I started rewriting psuedonyms using pjb's reader to read the token correctly. I've forgotten the details, but this is the crux of it in case you are interested.
2015-12-25T00:45:19Z PuercoPop: happy holidays all
2015-12-25T00:45:26Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: !!
2015-12-25T00:46:19Z phoe_krk: I know nothing about pjb's reader, as I've never paid it any attention just before, but I'll definitely pay this code and the reader a look after Xmas, when I'm less stuffed and/or sleepy.
2015-12-25T00:46:20Z phoe_krk: thanks!
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2015-12-25T00:49:48Z phoe_krk: that's much better code than my initial hacking and reads much better.
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2015-12-25T00:52:38Z physixer: ok can I do (a 5) and make it to mean (define a 5) ?
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2015-12-25T00:53:19Z physixer: or (defun a 5) since this is lisp.
2015-12-25T00:54:01Z phoe_krk: physixer: (a 5) calls function a with argument 5.
2015-12-25T00:54:49Z phoe_krk: You'd need to do it from the body of another macro, such as (my-defun (a 5))
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2015-12-25T00:57:28Z physixer: phoe_krk: can I do like (a 5) and define a to be a function that somehow declares var-a behind the scenes, then when I invoke a later, var-a gets invoked instead?
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2015-12-25T00:58:55Z |3b|: you can define a variable and define a function with the same name that sets that variable, though i'm not sure why you would want to
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2015-12-25T00:59:15Z |3b|: you can't do that automatically for all variables very easily though, particularly not lexical variables
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2015-12-25T01:00:17Z |3b|: and you don't "invoke" variables in CL, you just access the binding. in particular (a ...) doesn't mean call the function stored in the variable A in CL
2015-12-25T01:00:38Z |3b|: the function named A is completely independent of the variable named A in CL
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2015-12-25T01:12:08Z edgar-rft: AFAIK if you (unintern 'a) this will unintern both, the function A as well as the dynnamic variable A
2015-12-25T01:12:29Z Bicyclidine: no, it uninterns the symbol
2015-12-25T01:13:23Z edgar-rft: yes, true, but both bindings are lost afterwards
2015-12-25T01:13:54Z Bicyclidine: (defvar *foo* 4) (let ((sym '*foo*)) (unintern sym) (symbol-value sym)) => 4
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2015-12-25T01:14:21Z Bicyclidine: but since you usually just lose the symbol things are usually garbage collected.
2015-12-25T01:14:34Z Fare: physixer, you can do whatever you want
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2015-12-25T01:14:55Z Fare: physixer, you may have to wrap your code in a macro, though
2015-12-25T01:15:09Z Fare: you can't do that at the top-level without hacking e.g. the reader.
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2015-12-25T01:21:22Z phoe_krk: and hacking your reader in such a top-level way would make you unable to call other functions unless you provide yourself with another way of doing that, which would essentially flip a majority of Lisp upside down.
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2015-12-25T01:25:32Z physixer: thanks guys. This channel seems to be more active than #scheme ATM so do you guys mind if I ask a question coded in scheme but which applies to lisp as well (about the idea of abstractions): https://redd.it/3y4vjw
2015-12-25T01:26:03Z physixer: it's like light-bulbs are going off in my head and I'm trying to capture some of the light.
2015-12-25T01:26:27Z physixer: sorry if I sound too philosophical.
2015-12-25T01:27:13Z mtl_: physixer: I'm all christmas drunk/stoned and what not, but sureI'll look at your link
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2015-12-25T01:29:45Z |3b| 's answer is why are you so set on "having things in global variables" as part of your abstraction?
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2015-12-25T01:30:31Z mtl_ 's answer is let's have more beer and talk about football/soccer
2015-12-25T01:30:43Z |3b|: it is normal to store a set of parameters to an operation in a single object, as your MAKE-FORMULA does
2015-12-25T01:31:43Z physixer: |3b|: ok
2015-12-25T01:31:55Z |3b|: if you only need 1 thing, implement 1 thing
2015-12-25T01:32:01Z |3b|: when you need a 2nd variant, implement that
2015-12-25T01:32:33Z |3b|: once you start needing a 3rd, 4th, etc start thinking about whether combining them is simpler than implementing them separately
2015-12-25T01:32:42Z |3b|: in this case, it might not be worth combining them
2015-12-25T01:33:42Z |3b|: though if it is just changing the numbers, that is a fairly trivial change
2015-12-25T01:35:26Z |3b|: for the final code, renaming CAR and CADR (or FIRST/SECOND) is probably counterproductive, since it just makes things harder to read. (and i'd probably expect a PAIR to be a single CONS accessed by CAR/CDR anyway rather than a list)
2015-12-25T01:35:27Z physixer: I think one observation that has occurred to me just now is that: coming from C++/Java's OO end, probably it's a lot easier in lisp/scheme to construct massive towers of abstraction in a very short amount of time and code.
2015-12-25T01:35:56Z physixer: However the general rule of thumb still applies that you have to ask whether it's worth constructing that tower.
2015-12-25T01:35:57Z |3b|: named accessors for the components of a FORMULA is reasonable though
2015-12-25T01:36:49Z |3b|: since then you can for example change the internals of the storage without affecting the users
2015-12-25T01:37:01Z |3b|: or you could calculate one of the values from the other
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2015-12-25T01:37:21Z pjb`: mordocai: you would use handler-bind instead of handler-case, and decline.
2015-12-25T01:37:25Z pjb`: clhs handler-bind
2015-12-25T01:37:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_handle.htm
2015-12-25T01:37:33Z |3b|: or any number of other useful things, which is why CLOS (the CL form of OOP) works that way
2015-12-25T01:38:10Z |3b|: so aside from the PAIR stuff, the final code isn't unreasonable once you get to the point of generalizing that far
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2015-12-25T01:38:27Z |3b| would probably have just added extra arguments to COST before that though
2015-12-25T01:39:08Z pjb: Walex2: The Fiji GPU has close to 9 billion transistors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_count#GPUs
2015-12-25T01:39:15Z |3b|: since for manual exploration of the problem space, just calling COST with different values is a tiny bit easier than constructing a separate object to pass to it
2015-12-25T01:39:21Z physixer: |3b|: ok, instead of pair just user the list/cons and car,cdr directly in formula related defs?
2015-12-25T01:39:30Z pjb: Walex2: GPU have indeed very many CPUs working in parallel.
2015-12-25T01:39:53Z pjb: Walex2: in general, people use GPUs for games, and to display nice animations in word processors.
2015-12-25T01:40:12Z |3b|: physixer: right, how you store the values in a formula is an implementation detail of MAKE-FORMULA, FORMULA-FIXED-COST, and FORMULA-COST-PER-PERSON
2015-12-25T01:40:37Z |3b|: it could be CONS, LIST, a closure, and array, whatever
2015-12-25T01:41:03Z |3b|: and COST doesn't need to care which you used since it calls the functions that know the details
2015-12-25T01:41:41Z pjb: Walex2: this week I read an article about the bust of kinect (totally merited, they removed an inboard processor to shave cents). But basically, people still play (screen) games, and word processors, because we can't step up to the holodeck stage.
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2015-12-25T01:45:03Z pjb: edgar-rft: "uninterning functions or variable" is totally meaningless.
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2015-12-25T01:45:46Z pjb: edgar-rft: uninterning the symbol naming a function or variable is perfectly meaningful, and has absolutely no effect on the function or the variable.
2015-12-25T01:45:59Z pjb: edgar-rft: the bindings are definitely not lost.
2015-12-25T01:46:34Z Fare: I used to use this technique when upgrading ASDF
2015-12-25T01:46:45Z pjb: for example.
2015-12-25T01:46:59Z Fare: but eventually decided to avoid it
2015-12-25T01:47:05Z Fare: when possible
2015-12-25T01:47:20Z pjb: It can be used for other purposes too.
2015-12-25T01:47:43Z Fare: pjb: any chance of a CLISP release next year?
2015-12-25T01:47:43Z pjb: For example to deliver a closed source library ;-}
2015-12-25T01:48:05Z physixer: |3b|: thanks. It makes sense.
2015-12-25T01:48:11Z Fare: pjb: compiling to Scheme then using Stalin would be even better
2015-12-25T01:48:17Z pjb: Fare: sorry, I had to delay my involvement with clisp maintainance.  I'll be busy for the next six months.
2015-12-25T01:48:30Z Fare: pjb: :-( Any other potential clisp maintainer?
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2015-12-25T01:49:00Z Fare: even just an interim release with what's currently in HEAD, plus a recent ASDF ?
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2015-12-25T01:50:35Z antonv: Fare: or just latest stable release + new ASDF
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2015-12-25T01:59:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: "<|3b|> if you only need 1 thing, implement 1 thing" This doesn't get said enough. In Lisp it's possible to build up state by representing it with globals, and then closures, and then finally classes if necessary. Going from static everything to instance members in Java is painful enough that making everything "unstatic" is neccesary.
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2015-12-25T02:02:00Z |3b|: Petit_Dejeuner: well, it is said pretty often by some, just in different rems (YAGNI, etc)
2015-12-25T02:05:45Z Fare: CLISP is the other semi-maintained implementation with an antique ASDF < 3.1
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2015-12-25T02:19:15Z jangle: i'm trying to generate symbols from arbitrary strings, in order to use them in a plist. when I use (make-symbol, and then subesquently try to getf that symbol from the plist, I get nil, as if it is not found
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2015-12-25T02:20:41Z jangle: repeated calls of (setf (getf *plist* (make-symbol (format nil ":~A" "whatsupdoc"))) 1)  result in a plist with multiple copies of  #:|:whatsupdoc| 1
2015-12-25T02:22:19Z pjb: jangle: (let* ((s (make-symbol "random string")) (a (acons 'hello 0 (acons s 3 '())))) (assoc s a)) #| --> (#:|random string| . 3) |#  works nicely for me.
2015-12-25T02:22:54Z pjb: jangle: (let* ((s (make-symbol "random string")) (p (list  'hello 0 s 3))) (getf p s)) #| --> 3 |#  works for p-lists too.
2015-12-25T02:23:22Z |3b|: make symbol makes a new symbol, you probably want an existing symbol matching your code, INTERN or FIND-SYMBOL might be more appropriate
2015-12-25T02:23:26Z pjb: jangle: nothing prevents different symbols to have the same name. Obviously, on don't have multiple copies of it.
2015-12-25T02:23:48Z pjb: jangle: compare: (let ((s (make-symbol "again"))) (list s s s)) #| --> (#1=#:|again| #1# #1#) |#  and (list  (make-symbol "again")  (make-symbol "again")  (make-symbol "again")) #| --> (#:|again| #:|again| #:|again|) |#
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2015-12-25T02:26:51Z jangle: pjb: your last example, I get (#:|again| #:|again| #:|again|) as the result of the first call, but I see how I need to differentiate between making a new symbol and finding one i've used already
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2015-12-25T02:28:02Z Bicyclidine: jangle: set *print-circle* to t and you'll get what pjb wrote.
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2015-12-25T02:34:30Z jangle: thank you all, intern and find-symbol were what I was looking for
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2015-12-25T02:36:32Z pjb: Does the Euler Project take in lisp submissions? (I've never used it).
2015-12-25T02:37:14Z jangle: I think you're just supposed to provide the output
2015-12-25T02:37:32Z pjb: jangle: when you have *print-circle* set to true, when you get (#:|again| #:|again| #:|again|)printed, it means that all three symbols are different.  If they were the same, with *print-circle* set to true, you'd get  (#1=#:|again| #1# #1#) printed instead.
2015-12-25T02:37:51Z pjb: jangle: oh, only the output. So you can use whatever locally.
2015-12-25T02:38:02Z jangle: pjb: yes if memory serves
2015-12-25T02:38:10Z pjb: spoj.com takes in programs, and runs sbcl.
2015-12-25T02:38:12Z pjb: That's good. Thanks.
2015-12-25T02:38:53Z phadthai: jangle: also beware of case, as the default reader configuration converts to uppercase, if you want to avoid needing quoting with | when using your own symbols
2015-12-25T02:39:11Z Fare: I have a few euler project solutions in a fare-puzzles repository on github
2015-12-25T02:39:15Z Bicyclidine: your only reward for answering is being able to get more problems, so there'd be no point in cheating (though people probably do anyway), so the answer mechanism is just for your benefit.
2015-12-25T02:39:29Z jangle: phadthai: ty
2015-12-25T02:39:39Z Fare: whenever a friend asks for help with a problem, I solve it that way
2015-12-25T02:39:50Z Fare: and grow a library of utilities
2015-12-25T02:40:36Z Fare: codeeval is better: it demands a program that must solve the problem for several inputs
2015-12-25T02:42:28Z Fare: https://github.com/fare/fare-puzzles/tree/master/util
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2015-12-25T03:19:30Z pjb: spoj like codeeval. spoj may also have time constraints, to ensure that you found a good algorithm, time complexity -wise.
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2015-12-25T03:21:14Z pjb: Fare: if you know codeeval, perhaps you could update http://cliki.net/Exercices with an entry for it?
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2015-12-25T03:28:35Z Fare: I don't really know it. I just solved one problem that a friend mentionned
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2015-12-25T03:44:49Z Fare: it doesn't accept solutions in CL, but who cares?
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2015-12-25T03:50:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-12-25T03:51:01Z beach: Fare: Do you still need my help for Chapter 7?
2015-12-25T03:51:51Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-12-25T03:52:17Z eudoxia: good morning beach
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2015-12-25T03:54:13Z Fare: beach: yes, I rewrote it
2015-12-25T03:54:21Z Fare: or large chunks of it
2015-12-25T03:54:23Z beach: Same URL?
2015-12-25T03:54:30Z Fare: and move large chunks to chapter 8 (not ready yet)
2015-12-25T03:54:34Z Fare: yes, same url
2015-12-25T03:54:43Z beach: OK, I'll try to have a look later.
2015-12-25T03:54:43Z Fare: working on reorganizing chapter 8 at this time
2015-12-25T03:54:47Z Fare: thanks a lot!
2015-12-25T03:55:39Z beach: Fare: Don't hesitate to write me an email.  In the worst case I don't have time to do it immediately.
2015-12-25T03:58:09Z beach: ... whenever you have something to proofread, I mean.
2015-12-25T03:59:03Z Fare: I already sent email
2015-12-25T03:59:13Z Fare: hopefully, chapter 8 will be ready by tomorrow
2015-12-25T03:59:19Z beach: Great!
2015-12-25T04:01:45Z Fare: chapter 7 has a somewhat more political ending now
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2015-12-25T04:02:09Z Fare: it was no premeditated, but the natural conclusion of focusing on application vs platform
2015-12-25T04:02:10Z beach: I'll still proofread it. :)
2015-12-25T04:02:50Z Fare: chapter 8 also has a political ending, that I'm also moving to the end of the chapter.
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2015-12-25T04:04:48Z Fare: writing is HARD
2015-12-25T04:05:13Z beach: Perhaps most things worth doing are.
2015-12-25T04:06:13Z Fare: Reminder: the URL for proofreading is https://github.com/Ngnghm/ngnghm.github.io/blob/master/_src/posts/8888-88-88-chapter-7.md
2015-12-25T04:06:56Z beach: Noted.
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2015-12-25T04:15:17Z Fare: I appreciate remarks on the contents as well as the form.
2015-12-25T04:15:53Z beach: That's much harder though, given that you are writing about a personal point of view.
2015-12-25T04:17:02Z Fare: that is true.
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2015-12-25T04:17:15Z beach: As a general remark, whenever you mention things like "meta level" and various kinds of logic, it looks to me like you are sweeping things under the rug.  But that's perhaps just me because I then don't know what you mean.
2015-12-25T04:17:18Z Fare: but it doesn't have to be of a binary "this is wrong" form, either
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2015-12-25T04:17:36Z Fare: Yeah, I removed "meta level" from chapter 7
2015-12-25T04:17:48Z Fare: I am re-introducing it better in chapter 8.
2015-12-25T04:18:08Z beach: It looks to me like "there has got to be a solution to this, but I don't know what it is, so I'll use words the readers don't understand."
2015-12-25T04:18:10Z Fare: although chapter 8 is too long
2015-12-25T04:18:37Z Fare: no, there is a solution, and that solution requires having neatly separately levels of abstraction.
2015-12-25T04:18:56Z Fare: Hopefully, it will be more obvious by the end of chapter 8.
2015-12-25T04:19:22Z Fare: by factoring things "vertically" as well as "horizontally", you can keep your code much simpler.
2015-12-25T04:19:37Z beach: I believe you.  However, the style of your writing is such that it ought to be possible to appreciate that you know what the solution is, without having to do a lot of research.
2015-12-25T04:19:47Z Fare: agreed
2015-12-25T04:20:32Z Fare: not always easy to explain, but yes, that's the whole point, perhaps.
2015-12-25T04:20:47Z beach: Yes, that's what I think.
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2015-12-25T04:22:42Z beach: But I'll keep that in mind and make more remarks about content.
2015-12-25T04:30:02Z Fare: thanks!
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2015-12-25T05:37:31Z moonman: why are black people blaming things on their skin color when in fact more black people, per capita, live better and more lavish lives than white people?
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2015-12-25T05:42:51Z pjb: moonman: this is not the topic of this channel.
2015-12-25T05:43:03Z moonman: you're not the topic of this channel
2015-12-25T05:43:41Z pjb: Here you can discuss about the common lisp programming language, or you get kicked.
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2015-12-25T07:12:05Z moore33: Merry consing to all!
2015-12-25T07:15:22Z DeadTrickster: wut
2015-12-25T07:15:33Z contrapunctus: wut
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2015-12-25T07:26:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: It's gravmas.
2015-12-25T07:26:58Z Petit_Dejeuner: Merry consing
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2015-12-25T07:27:40Z beach: moore33: Same to you and your family!
2015-12-25T07:27:51Z beach: well, something else for the family I guess.
2015-12-25T07:28:02Z moore33: beach: They're consing  too, they just don't know it.
2015-12-25T07:28:08Z beach: Heh!
2015-12-25T07:28:40Z contrapunctus: Petit_Dejeuner: oh, wow. https://www.stallman.org/grav-mass.html links to an Onion article. Didn't know RMS did humor.
2015-12-25T07:28:57Z moore33: beach: We need to get your family to visit us here, as we've said for years! Some day.
2015-12-25T07:29:06Z contrapunctus: Petit_Dejeuner: damn, I wish I knew about this earlier.
2015-12-25T07:29:17Z moore33: rms can be very funny.
2015-12-25T07:29:18Z beach: moore33: I agree.
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2015-12-25T07:46:32Z beach: moore33: I am really looking forward to trying out your library.
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2015-12-25T07:53:09Z beach: For once, we might actually get some synergy effects.
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2015-12-25T08:06:14Z moore33: beach: When I looked at Clim3 a couple of years ago, it was easy to see how to recast the rendering in terms of my library; especially as Clim has all this support for a "retained" model of graphics with the output records.
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2015-12-25T08:08:09Z jsgrant is sad to see that CLIM really never caught on.
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2015-12-25T08:11:01Z moore33: jsgrant: CLIM, especially the commercial implementation, has a huge amount of hair that makes it challenging to implement and maintain.
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2015-12-25T08:17:37Z jsgrant: moore33: "Hair", as in parts of the spec?
2015-12-25T08:19:44Z beach: moore33: Yes, that's what I am hoping, so that I don't have to do this pixel-by-pixel rendering that is a bit slow.
2015-12-25T08:20:29Z beach: jsgrant: You can participate in making it catch on by using it.
2015-12-25T08:21:16Z beach: jsgrant: Yes, the spec is pretty complicated, and, as nyef has discovered, perhaps impossible to implement fully because of internal inconsistencies.
2015-12-25T08:21:31Z jsgrant: Too, I wish generally there were more foss examples floating around, of applications using it. Climacs is the only system I've seen leverage it semi-non-trivially thus far.
2015-12-25T08:22:19Z beach: Simple applications would be useful as well.
2015-12-25T08:22:25Z beach: I have a few already.
2015-12-25T08:23:00Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/TransClime
2015-12-25T08:23:02Z jsgrant: beach: Yeah, I have intentions to look much more into it during 2016.
2015-12-25T08:23:18Z beach: That is complete and working.
2015-12-25T08:23:54Z beach: Accounting system, but I can't remember the state it is in: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Compta
2015-12-25T08:24:15Z jsgrant: I plan on throwing some contributions to the way of second-climacs in the not-so-distant future, so maybe that will be a nice way to edge into the space. :^P
2015-12-25T08:25:21Z beach: Definitely!
2015-12-25T08:25:31Z beach: Careful though, I am about to work on it.
2015-12-25T08:25:47Z beach: I will replace the buffer by the new library Cluffer.
2015-12-25T08:26:05Z beach: And I am thinking of giving it a CLIM II GUI.
2015-12-25T08:26:20Z jsgrant: beach: Yeah, I have been tentatively looking towards cluffer with excitement.
2015-12-25T08:26:47Z beach: jsgrant: I guess what I am saying is: Please consult me before you do something radical, at least if you want me to integrate your code into this repository.
2015-12-25T08:27:25Z beach: jsgrant: Oh, good.  It is getting closer to being finished, but the road was much longer than anticipated.
2015-12-25T08:29:41Z jsgrant: beach: Yeah, np. I'm probably not going to do anything significant for at least a month, probably a few months ever after that (just set up Emacs to a point I'm more-or-less happy with, so I'll probably need a little nudge to outweigh the conservative for the idealistic (but the purist in me is surely excited :^) )
2015-12-25T08:30:10Z beach: OK.  We'll stay in touch about it.
2015-12-25T08:31:49Z beach: My resolution for the new year is to try harder to obtain synergy effects.  Part of that work will no doubt be to turn more code into libraries and to make sure those libraries come with documentation and tests.
2015-12-25T08:31:49Z jsgrant: beach: Yeah, I'm going to start lurking in here a lot more regularly by the end of the year; Constantly by early 2016.
2015-12-25T08:32:05Z beach: Excellent!
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2015-12-25T08:35:40Z jsgrant stares at the clock. It's already edging towards 3am here, so I'm going to make the "smart decision" and try to head to bed before the ol' yule-time family-time.
2015-12-25T08:36:01Z beach: I think one way of improving McCLIM would be to turn some of the subsystems into libraries.  Certainly, replacing most (all) of the backends by the new rendering library by moore33 will be in that spirit.  Another (I am making this up as I go) might be a library for reading and writing image files, which would require agreeing upon an internal format for images.
2015-12-25T08:36:16Z beach: 'night jsgrant.
2015-12-25T08:37:06Z jsgrant goes afk, will likely be back on sometime later today; If not, before the weekend is over. o/
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2015-12-25T08:45:35Z moore33: bbl... I have read all this clim talk, but need to go running!
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2015-12-25T09:07:48Z beach: Hmm, ch-image seems to be a very good candidate for use in McCLIM.  However, the GIT repository is unavailable, and so are the GIT repositories for systems it depends on.  We need to convince slyrus to move those repositories to a public place.
2015-12-25T09:13:41Z beach: However, ch-image seems to be available to Quicklisp.  YAY!
2015-12-25T09:16:49Z beach: So here is a modest project for someone: Make McCLIM use ch-image and remove all the special image reading/writing code form McCLIM.
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2015-12-25T09:36:40Z DeadTrickster: beach, http://mcclim.cliki.net/Screenshot
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2015-12-25T11:50:03Z goldfish6744: Hello. I need somebody who would write me a program (not an assignment) that is heavy on logical conditions and array operations. Using CCL 1.1-1/win64. Any takers?
2015-12-25T11:51:49Z H4ns: you could ask clozure associates, they do for-money lisp consulting.
2015-12-25T11:52:31Z goldfish6744: no money in it
2015-12-25T11:52:51Z H4ns: why would someone want to write the program for you?
2015-12-25T11:53:06Z goldfish6744: no idea. Maybe since they're bored.
2015-12-25T11:57:20Z H4ns: why don't you try to write it yourself and ask questions here when you can't make progress?
2015-12-25T11:58:58Z goldfish6744: well, I'm not familiar with Lisp. The language in which I tried to code it is Fortran, but it doesn't work anywhere above the trivial complexity. Then again, since my approach is based on random number generator, it likely shouldn't - which is why I thought Lisp would suit the problem at hand more.
2015-12-25T11:59:54Z H4ns: well, grab a text book, learn some lisp, solve your problem.
2015-12-25T12:00:13Z goldfish6744: hm. If I get stuck, will I get help?
2015-12-25T12:00:37Z goldfish6744: here, I mean
2015-12-25T12:00:43Z H4ns: you're more likely to get help on specific questions than find someone who does the work for you.
2015-12-25T12:04:29Z goldfish6744: well, I'm on the clozure CL doc page... but it seems that I am a very beginner. How do you make an array of length L that is an array of true/false values?
2015-12-25T12:05:04Z goldfish6744: cannot find much about "logical" or "false" or similar things in there as far as variables are concerned
2015-12-25T12:05:20Z H4ns: you need to learn common lisp before the clozure cl documentation is of value to you.
2015-12-25T12:05:38Z goldfish6744: got link, perhaps?
2015-12-25T12:05:48Z H4ns: minion: tell goldfish6744 about pcl
2015-12-25T12:05:48Z minion: goldfish6744: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2015-12-25T12:06:24Z goldfish6744: hmm, let's see...
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2015-12-25T12:12:51Z goldfish6744: anyhow, apart from reading up on it: is Lisp a good choice if you want to work with a boolean array and a great number of requirements on said array?
2015-12-25T12:13:17Z goldfish6744: or is some other (perhaps constraint programming) language the prime choice here?
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2015-12-25T12:22:17Z attila_lendvai: goldfish6744: depends. it may be if you want to go with the stock data types. but if you're willing to learn enough to extend the environment, then it certainly is
2015-12-25T12:23:09Z moore33: beach: cl-Freeimage might be a contender too.
2015-12-25T12:23:14Z goldfish6744: all I'd need is integer and boolean, in fact
2015-12-25T12:23:28Z attila_lendvai: goldfish6744: if you want backtracking (ala prolog), then there's an old project called screamer that integrates backtracking primitives into lisp, but there's not much active userbase of it as far as I know
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2015-12-25T12:24:35Z attila_lendvai: goldfish6744: if you only need efficient data types, then there are specialized arrays that give you uint32/64 access without much overhead
2015-12-25T12:24:49Z goldfish6744: okay, then in this perspective: can I tell in LISP: "x is integer and 0<x<10 and sqrt(x) is integer too, find me one/all such x"?
2015-12-25T12:25:08Z beach: moore33: I'll check it out.  Thanks.
2015-12-25T12:25:50Z attila_lendvai: goldfish6744: you can do the first part. the "find them for me" is what screamer gives, but this kind of declarative programming is not part of stock lisp.
2015-12-25T12:26:35Z goldfish6744: hm, I see, knocking up on the wrong door then. Any tips perhaps which language to use?
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2015-12-25T12:27:29Z attila_lendvai: goldfish6744: screamer is actually a very interesting piece of code. imagine an average programming language that receives a few new non-deterministic primitives, and few new constraints of what you can write in the rest of the code.
2015-12-25T12:28:02Z attila_lendvai: it's a bit like adding prolog to lisp as a user library
2015-12-25T12:28:56Z goldfish6744: but if that's already an add-on (and with not much active userbase, as you have said), shouldn't I be better off with using Prolog directly?
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2015-12-25T12:30:08Z attila_lendvai: and there are also prolog implementations in lisp, but I never used any
2015-12-25T12:31:36Z attila_lendvai: goldfish6744: that entirely depends on your goals. if you want to get the thing done, e.g. it's a school assignment, then most probably. but if you e.g. want to learn more depths of programming then playing with screamer has much more potential (and also a higher entry cost to get the first hello world done)
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2015-12-25T12:32:42Z goldfish6744: it's just to get it done... and it's entirely for personal interest, nothing to do with assignments or similar things. Just curious. It's about finding single-track Gray codes for a track length L
2015-12-25T12:33:14Z goldfish6744: it's like this: there is a track of length L and a number of sensors around the track, that read the boolean directly below them from the track
2015-12-25T12:33:59Z goldfish6744: the track has 2 properties: 1. for each position from 1 to L (or 0 to L-1, depending on your taste), the total readings from the sensors are different
2015-12-25T12:34:34Z goldfish6744: 2. Proceeding from a position to either of the 2 neighboring ones changes precisely one bit. That means that for each reading, you can be sure about your position +-1
2015-12-25T12:34:48Z goldfish6744: trivial example: track 0011, sensors at positions 1 and 2
2015-12-25T12:35:22Z goldfish6744: the track wraps around, so can be thought of as circular
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2015-12-25T12:36:13Z H4ns: goldfish6744: what kind of track is that?
2015-12-25T12:36:51Z goldfish6744: say, magnetic, or painted with dark&light paint, anything that can carry binary information
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2015-12-25T12:38:37Z goldfish6744: you can imagine for example a rotary knob which can rotate it, and sensors arranged around the perimeter of the track
2015-12-25T12:38:58Z goldfish6744: and you want to know (with +-1 precision) where your knob is at
2015-12-25T12:40:38Z goldfish6744: that looseness is because in an actual mechanical system, you cannot be sure of having either the track pattern or the sensors are placed with perfect precision - but you know that you cannot miss by much
2015-12-25T12:41:24Z attila_lendvai: goldfish6744: this doesn't sound like a big system, so I'd go with whatever language you know the best. this can be solved by writing the search yourself, and then you don't need to learn prolog or the ins and outs of backtracking in general
2015-12-25T12:42:35Z goldfish6744: well, not for such a short track. If you want something with, say, 1000 positions, you cannot just try every 2^1000 possible patterns with the... let's see, 10C1000 sensor placements
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2015-12-25T12:46:21Z goldfish6744: and well, I have tried writing a search in Fortran; in fact, one which used a GA on the candidates and cross-bred the track pattern and sensor placement based on how well they satisfied the requirements. But for 30 places (and 5 sensors) it took over 2 hours to find a workable configuration
2015-12-25T12:48:18Z goldfish6744: there are of course certain observations, such as that the track cannot possibly have a 010 or 101 pattern on it (because it would either produce 2 changes as it rotates, thus violating the 2nd requirement, or duplicating a code, thus violating the 1st one)
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2015-12-25T12:51:19Z attila_lendvai: goldfish6744: I'd lie if I told you that I'm following the actual problem... but it does sound like a very specific issue. I don't have much experience with backtracking frameworks, but I think they are helpful if the problem domain is big and there are many rules that are hard to see all at once.
2015-12-25T12:51:59Z attila_lendvai: goldfish6744: your problem sounds like it's small and it needs clever tricks to get to reasonable performance
2015-12-25T12:54:59Z goldfish6744: well, not sure how "big" and "small" are quantified, but the requirement that the readings be distinct for every position of the track puts L*(L-1)/2 requirements. For a track of length 1000, that's 499500 requirements
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2015-12-25T13:00:18Z goldfish6744: or incidentally, since it's about binary data and true/false statements, perhaps some SAT solver would be more of a help here?
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2015-12-25T13:04:45Z attila_lendvai: goldfish6744: by big I meant the problem domain, not the state space. i.e. how much the programmer's brain needs to cope with as opposed to how much the computer needs to cope with
2015-12-25T13:06:05Z goldfish6744: okay, in that respect it's a small problem
2015-12-25T13:06:27Z prxq: that sounds like a nice math problem with exact solution
2015-12-25T13:07:10Z prxq: not that I know an exact solution. but you probably have constraints on the number of sensors and the length of the track.
2015-12-25T13:08:01Z prxq: and using a ga is almost always a bad idea.
2015-12-25T13:08:42Z goldfish6744: well, you want to tell the program how long a track you want. The track length must be not larger than 2^S, where S is the number of sensors, but in some cases, it's even smaller. I have ran an exhaustive search on the track L=8 and S=3 situation and it certainly is impossible. With 4 sensors it's trivial.
2015-12-25T13:11:31Z goldfish6744: what I/we would want to use this is actually an automatic positioning system for the telescope here in Eindhoven, on both axes. So a resolution of something like 3600 positions would be needed (for every 10th of a degree), otherwise it's more hassle than win.
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2015-12-25T13:12:36Z goldfish6744: we can do precision engraving for the track plates, that's not the issue, but we need such a pattern in the first place. The subsequent microcontroller logic that actually converts it into human-readable format is bound to be very simple
2015-12-25T13:14:05Z goldfish6744: together with an RTC chip, it can always show the azimuth and altitude of what the telescope is looking at, which would be a damn huge help in night sessions
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2015-12-25T13:28:06Z John[Lisbeth]: Okie dokie, it's been a couple months since I was in here but I finally got a working emacs system and a basic understanding of how to use it. Now I'm looking to get an eshell window going.
2015-12-25T13:28:35Z John[Lisbeth]: Also (happy (holidays))
2015-12-25T13:29:27Z John[Lisbeth]: Oops I meant SLIME
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2015-12-25T13:32:08Z kenanb: which one is a better approach to creating a plugin system: define a register function and make all plugins call it, or make all plugins define a register function in their own package and you call them one by one when loading
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2015-12-25T13:37:06Z p_l: the former
2015-12-25T13:37:54Z kenanb: I used the former in my program, then realized coleslaw takes the letter approach, wondered if it would be somehow better
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2015-12-25T13:38:48Z p_l: how do you know what to call, though?
2015-12-25T13:39:33Z kenanb: p_l: letter makes plugins not depend on the program, which might have advantages, but there is no use for the plugin code outside the program anyway
2015-12-25T13:40:33Z attila_lendvai: and goldfish6744 left without leaving a trace... too bad.
2015-12-25T13:41:14Z kenanb: p_l: coleslaw does that by protocol: every plugin needs to define an "enable" function in their own package
2015-12-25T13:45:02Z kenanb: p_l: which means every plugin needs to be created with a specific file name, package name and an "enable" function in that package, which I think makes that approach weaker
2015-12-25T13:45:54Z p_l: I agree
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2015-12-25T13:47:56Z kenanb: p_l: thank you. I will keep using the former approach.
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2015-12-25T14:04:33Z Jonsky: 21:39 <kenanb> p_l: letter makes plugins not depend on the program, which might have advantages, but there is no use for the plugin code outside the program anyway
2015-12-25T14:04:40Z Jonsky: z
2015-12-25T14:04:58Z Jonsky: ooops again
2015-12-25T14:04:59Z Jonsky: sorry
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2015-12-25T15:17:39Z PuercoPop: minion: memo for kenanb: check also wookie's plugin system https://github.com/orthecreedence/wookie/blob/master/plugin.lisp
2015-12-25T15:17:39Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell kenanb when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-12-25T16:23:39Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2015-12-25T16:24:33Z phoe_krk: Evening, beach.
2015-12-25T16:24:35Z phoe_krk: Happy Lispmas.
2015-12-25T16:24:39Z lurker: Good evening!
2015-12-25T16:25:52Z beach: lurker: New here?
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2015-12-25T16:32:21Z loke_: Hello beach and phoekrk
2015-12-25T16:33:23Z phoe_krk: off I run for lispmas, see you
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2015-12-25T16:33:41Z beach: loke_: I take it your survived the holidays?
2015-12-25T16:33:57Z loke_: beach: Yeah. Had a swedish-style christmas dinner last nmight
2015-12-25T16:34:07Z loke_: gave the kids presents and stuff :-)
2015-12-25T16:34:11Z beach: Oh, nice!  Who did the cooking?
2015-12-25T16:34:18Z loke_: Me and my wife
2015-12-25T16:34:27Z beach: Is she Swedish too?
2015-12-25T16:34:29Z loke_: My mum sent brown beans from sweden :-)
2015-12-25T16:34:30Z loke_: no
2015-12-25T16:34:35Z loke_: But she's learnt :-)
2015-12-25T16:34:40Z beach: Great!
2015-12-25T16:34:46Z loke_: We cook swedish food once per year :-)
2015-12-25T16:35:08Z beach: I am from the south so I made brown (caramelized) cabbage, herring of course, meat balls.
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2015-12-25T16:35:22Z beach: But that was two weeks ago! :)
2015-12-25T16:35:39Z loke_: Yeah, we made meatballs, even though I don't eat meat. The rest of the family does though
2015-12-25T16:35:42Z beach: I am by myself now, because my (admittedly small) family went to the US to visit her mother.
2015-12-25T16:36:06Z beach: Oh, then you would love my cabbage.
2015-12-25T16:36:26Z beach: I changed all the recipes so that it wouldn't be as much work as it traditionally is.
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2015-12-25T16:36:31Z loke_: We usually have rödkål. I'm not sure I ever tried brunkål.
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2015-12-25T16:36:45Z beach: That's because you are not from Skåne.
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2015-12-25T16:36:56Z loke_: beach: But my father is
2015-12-25T16:37:01Z beach: Oh, OK.
2015-12-25T16:37:38Z beach: Remind me some time.  I'll give you the recipe.  I assume you have a microwave oven, yes?
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2015-12-25T16:39:00Z loke_:  beach: I don't.
2015-12-25T16:39:05Z loke_: I never had one, in fact :-)
2015-12-25T16:39:32Z beach: Then I advise against brunkål.  It takes too much work and time.
2015-12-25T16:39:49Z beach: In fact, I advise against cooking.
2015-12-25T16:39:57Z loke_: Yeah, I don't really like cooking.
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2015-12-25T16:40:08Z loke_: Good thing I live here, where cooking is optional.
2015-12-25T16:40:13Z beach: ... because you don't have a microwave oven.  Duh!
2015-12-25T16:40:34Z beach: Yes, I see what you mean.
2015-12-25T16:40:51Z beach: When I lived in .vn, the housekeeper would do the cooking. :)
2015-12-25T16:40:58Z beach: Not brunkål, though.
2015-12-25T16:41:18Z loke_: beach: Yeah, but we don't have a maid.
2015-12-25T16:41:23Z loke_: I don't really want one.
2015-12-25T16:41:40Z beach: No housekeeper and no microwave oven.  Strange household you must have.
2015-12-25T16:41:48Z loke_: beach: I know
2015-12-25T16:41:54Z loke_: beach: Where do you live now?
2015-12-25T16:41:59Z beach: Bordeaux.
2015-12-25T16:42:03Z loke_: Most of my neighbours have maids
2015-12-25T16:42:16Z beach: No housekeeper (cleaning lady, but not housekeeper), but a microwave oven.
2015-12-25T16:42:18Z loke_: We do have someone that cleans the house on a weekly basis though
2015-12-25T16:42:28Z beach: Yeah, same here.
2015-12-25T16:42:29Z loke_: Because there is only one thing I hate more than cooking, and that's cleaning.
2015-12-25T16:43:01Z beach: Coming from Sweden, then the USA, I was surprised to find that most my colleagues here have a cleaning person.
2015-12-25T16:43:15Z beach: Makes sense to the "economy".
2015-12-25T16:43:32Z loke_: beach: After having spent a decade outside sweden, I'm almost surprised that most peopl ein Sweden don't. :-)
2015-12-25T16:43:42Z beach: I totally agree with out.
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2015-12-25T16:43:45Z beach: with you.
2015-12-25T16:43:47Z loke_: I'm like: why on earth woudln't you?
2015-12-25T16:44:11Z beach: How are people without any formal training going to get work if you don't hire someone.
2015-12-25T16:44:12Z beach: ?
2015-12-25T16:44:27Z beach: It's about sharing wealth.
2015-12-25T16:45:24Z beach: I take my responsibility for improving the French "economy".
2015-12-25T16:45:41Z beach: Anyway, back to Common Lisp.
2015-12-25T16:45:56Z beach: This afternoon, I spent a few hours writing a CLIM II application.
2015-12-25T16:46:07Z beach: For the purpose of demoing its capabilities.
2015-12-25T16:46:12Z beach: Those of CLIM II that is.
2015-12-25T16:46:37Z beach: There were complaints before that there were no applications available.
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2015-12-25T16:47:05Z beach: Tomorrow, I will restructure it a bit so that the GUI is developed in stages.
2015-12-25T16:47:55Z beach: It is still amazingly simple to whip up a GUI for an application using CLIM.
2015-12-25T16:49:53Z beach: I must figure out a way to make other Lispers aware of that, and I should try to remove the bad image McCLIM seems to have, by showing that it is really quite good, and by improving it where it isn't so great.
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2015-12-25T16:51:14Z beach: Other than that, I spent a large part of the day with Chapter 7 of Fare's "stuff".
2015-12-25T16:51:30Z beach: Not sure whether to call it a "blog", a "book" or something else.
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2015-12-25T16:52:13Z beach: Now that he wants me to comment on contents rather than just form, it will take a lot longer.
2015-12-25T16:52:37Z loke_: beach: what is clim II?
2015-12-25T16:53:07Z beach: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/index.html
2015-12-25T16:53:55Z p_l: anyone has a spec on the connectivity from symbolics system to console?
2015-12-25T16:54:13Z beach: loke_: If you know about CLIM, it is probably synonymous.  Nobody cares about CLIM I anymore.
2015-12-25T16:54:50Z jsgrant: beach: I do... (, in theory).
2015-12-25T16:54:58Z jsgrant pokes his head in for a bit.
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2015-12-25T16:55:44Z beach: jsgrant: you do know about CLIM II?
2015-12-25T16:55:49Z jsgrant: beach: I think more-so, most people don't care about somefactor of "Lisp purism" is or similar.
2015-12-25T16:56:36Z jsgrant: beach: I'm not sure who showed it to me awhile back, but yeah in here someone linked me to a webpage for it; So, vaguely.
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2015-12-25T16:56:49Z loke_: OK, I'm heading to be dnow guys
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2015-12-25T16:57:02Z loke_: I'll see you all later. Merry christmas
2015-12-25T16:57:04Z loke_: !
2015-12-25T16:57:09Z jsgrant: loke_: o/
2015-12-25T16:57:33Z jsgrant should read through it again, now that he's a bit more familar with the CL ecosystem.
2015-12-25T16:57:53Z jsgrant: Still by no means, to what I'd call competent. :^P
2015-12-25T16:58:01Z loke_: jsgrant: Read what?
2015-12-25T16:58:17Z beach: jsgrant: That can be fixed. :)
2015-12-25T16:58:26Z jsgrant: loke_: The spec for CLIM II.
2015-12-25T16:58:32Z loke_: Oh
2015-12-25T16:58:53Z jsgrant: Oh wow, it was in my bookmarks via Firefox Sync. http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/index.html
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2015-12-25T16:59:23Z beach: Whew!  Same URL as I gave above. :)
2015-12-25T16:59:51Z jsgrant: beach: Woops, didn't even notice. :^I
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2015-12-25T17:00:05Z beach: Not important!  Just messing with you. :)
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2015-12-25T17:00:12Z loke_: Bye for now. Really sleep time now
2015-12-25T17:00:21Z jsgrant: loke_: Peace.
2015-12-25T17:00:23Z beach: 'night loke_
2015-12-25T17:00:44Z jsgrant: beach: I find your lack of pessimism, disturbing. :^)
2015-12-25T17:00:55Z beach: Wow, thanks!
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2015-12-25T17:01:12Z beach: I have been waiting for the day when someone would notice. :)
2015-12-25T17:01:26Z beach: Actually, that's a lie.  Lots of people notice.
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2015-12-25T17:02:51Z nyef: Ooh. CLIM discussion again.
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2015-12-25T17:05:28Z moore33: Yay clim!
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2015-12-25T17:05:32Z beach: heh.
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2015-12-25T17:07:35Z jsgrant: As a brief sidenote, is anyone using "Coleslaw" as a blog engine? One of my "micro-resolutions" is to try and start blogging ocassionally this coming year, and it looks fairly nice to work with.
2015-12-25T17:10:12Z jsgrant probably would want to add "Scriba" support at somepoint, as well, because markdown is boring all and all.
2015-12-25T17:11:25Z moore33: My impression is that Clim I was pretty broken, unless you were running on a Symbolics lisp machine.
2015-12-25T17:12:13Z jsgrant: moore33: Now, you're telling me you don't have an office of LispMs you're deplying to? :^)
2015-12-25T17:12:39Z jsgrant: deploy*, oh boy oh boy.
2015-12-25T17:12:57Z moore33: beach: We need to get someone involved with some graphical design talent and give McClim and its descendents a look, like that of Blender or darktable or something.
2015-12-25T17:13:10Z moore33: jsgrant: Not me, I just troll through old mailing list archives :)
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2015-12-25T17:13:57Z synergistics: What's the difference between () and '()
2015-12-25T17:14:08Z lurker: quote
2015-12-25T17:14:12Z jsgrant: Somewhere, in the basement of a goverment facility, there's still a LispM running 30+ year old software ... I just know it.
2015-12-25T17:15:14Z lurker: synergistics: The first element of a quoted list is not eval; (quote (a)) <=> '(a)
2015-12-25T17:15:27Z jsgrant: synergistics: Without a quote it evals the s-exp normally , a quote in front tells it to read the expression but not really eval it. So (+ 3 3) is 6, but '(+ 3 3) is (+ 3 3).
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2015-12-25T17:16:11Z synergistics: jsgrant: Yea I get that, but I meant specifically for quoted or not quoted nil
2015-12-25T17:16:19Z synergistics: Not any s-exp
2015-12-25T17:16:22Z jsgrant: tells it to print the expression*
2015-12-25T17:16:31Z jsgrant: synergistics: Ah.
2015-12-25T17:18:10Z ggole_: They evaluate very similarly (both to NIL), but they are different at the s-expression level.
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2015-12-25T17:21:25Z synergistics: What do you mean "at the s-expression level"? Like at a level outside of lisp?
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2015-12-25T17:22:30Z jsgrant: synergistics: Nah, they mean (I assume) via the stated desired behavior in the spec.
2015-12-25T17:23:42Z jsgrant: And how that translates, to s-exp that get implemented to give a desired effect*
2015-12-25T17:24:14Z Bicyclidine: sexp get implemented...? this seems confused.
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2015-12-25T17:25:26Z jsgrant: Bicyclidine: It's probably poor choice of wording; I mean using an s-exp as a device to implement a certain behavior.
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2015-12-25T17:26:44Z synergistics: Ah
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2015-12-25T17:27:32Z jsgrant is also probably too yule-grogged currently, and ignorant generally to be talking about the minutia of implementation details and/or design decisions in anything besides genneralities. :^P
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2015-12-25T17:28:05Z Bicyclidine: i really don't know what you mean.
2015-12-25T17:28:21Z Bicyclidine: nil and 'nil would compile to the same thing if they were being evaluated in code, i guess.
2015-12-25T17:28:41Z jsgrant: Bicyclidine: Are you talking to me, synergistics, or both?
2015-12-25T17:28:54Z Bicyclidine: beats me
2015-12-25T17:29:03Z jsgrant: X^D
2015-12-25T17:29:29Z moore33: Try (read-from-string "()") and (read-from-string "'()")
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2015-12-25T17:30:35Z beach: moore33: I agree, but don't know how to do it.
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2015-12-25T17:31:01Z moore33: steal steal steal
2015-12-25T17:31:37Z jsgrant: Bicyclidine: I was saying, very sloppily, to try and defunct the idea of "at a level outside of lisp"... but in restrospect, I should have been more questioning as too what that meant. And not make assumptions, and speak as loose as well.
2015-12-25T17:32:47Z beach: moore33: What I mean is that I don't know how to get someone involved.
2015-12-25T17:32:49Z jsgrant: Meh, blaming yule-time grogg again. :^P
2015-12-25T17:33:08Z jsgrant is going to grab a coffee.
2015-12-25T17:33:27Z moore33: beach: Right, which is why I'm musing about stealing UI elements outright.
2015-12-25T17:37:57Z beach: moore33: With your library, the synergy effect may be enough to avoid stealing the FFI way.
2015-12-25T17:39:17Z moore33: beach: I didn't mean stealing by calling into Qt or some other C/C++ toolkit; that way lies Clim2 :) I meant more reverse-engineering the look of pleasing interfaces.
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2015-12-25T17:39:38Z beach: moore33: I like that.
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2015-12-25T17:40:49Z beach: moore33: If we could propose a user interface that looks similar to (say) Qt while still producing infrastructure for CLIM II or CLIM3/CLIMatis, that would be a win for everyone.
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2015-12-25T17:43:29Z beach: Well, not quite, but if that's what it takes to convert the FFI crowd, then it might be worth it.
2015-12-25T17:44:17Z jsgrant: Okay, I'm going afk for a long bit. o/
2015-12-25T17:44:30Z beach: jsgrant: See you later.
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2015-12-25T17:51:29Z lurker: What are the best programs wrote in CL that a begginer like me should look after to improve? Thanks you!
2015-12-25T17:52:54Z beach: Tough question.  There is no general answer.  It is better to write something, even very simple and/or very stupid stuff, and submit it here for inspection.
2015-12-25T17:53:27Z beach: Then we can determine your current level and the mistakes and non-idiomatic constructs you use, and correct those.
2015-12-25T17:53:50Z lurker: I'm doing it, but some people said to me that this is very important to read code. I'm so looking after some big software coded in common lisp that I could read to improve my view on the language
2015-12-25T17:54:12Z beach: OK.
2015-12-25T17:54:33Z beach: Give us a hint of the application domain you would be interested in.
2015-12-25T17:54:54Z lurker: I don't know, games, browser
2015-12-25T17:55:04Z lurker: I'm into stumpwm right now
2015-12-25T17:55:26Z lurker: it's a windows manager
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2015-12-25T17:55:33Z beach: OK, not my domain of expertise.  Check with someone else.
2015-12-25T17:55:52Z lurker: ow ok, no problem :), merci
2015-12-25T17:56:25Z beach: There are plenty of people here who would do that better than I would, so just have patience.
2015-12-25T17:56:57Z lurker: I'm just a hobbyist, nothing serious here
2015-12-25T17:57:02Z beach: Sure.
2015-12-25T17:57:30Z beach: The Closure web browser was written by gilberth who is one of the absolute best Common Lisp programmers I know.
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2015-12-25T17:57:47Z lurker: Thanks, exactly what i'm looking for
2015-12-25T17:58:04Z beach: He does take shortcuts, just like we all do from time to time.
2015-12-25T17:58:23Z beach: So his code might not be pedagogically "clean".
2015-12-25T17:58:40Z beach: But it is bound to be very realistic.
2015-12-25T17:58:41Z lurker: Ok.
2015-12-25T17:58:48Z lurker: Thanks a lot.
2015-12-25T17:59:04Z beach: Well, now we have to find the code...
2015-12-25T17:59:33Z beach: https://common-lisp.net/project/closure/ maybe
2015-12-25T18:00:39Z lurker: yeah
2015-12-25T18:00:49Z beach: One or more (or even all) links may be dead at this point.
2015-12-25T18:02:38Z lurker: Why have this been discontinated?
2015-12-25T18:02:53Z beach: I think gilberth had the right idea: What is the application that everyone needs?  Answer: A web browser!  So he set out to write one.  Unfortunately, he probably didn't realize that parsing HTML was the small part if it.  Supporting new formats of images, videos, and whatnot, is the hard part.
2015-12-25T18:03:07Z beach: lurker: gilberth is doing other things these days.
2015-12-25T18:03:26Z lurker: Do you knwo where i can follow his work?
2015-12-25T18:03:42Z moore33: Not to mention implementing JavaScript.
2015-12-25T18:03:50Z lurker: i don't find him on github
2015-12-25T18:03:50Z beach: Yeah. :(
2015-12-25T18:04:14Z beach: lurker: Yes, he is no longer involved in Common Lisp programming as far as I can tell.
2015-12-25T18:04:48Z lurker: ow ok, thanks anyway.
2015-12-25T18:05:19Z beach: lurker: But he has done a lot of stuff that is still available, and that stuff is still usually of high quality.  I know (or knew) him personally, so I can help if you need that.
2015-12-25T18:05:47Z lurker: That's really cool
2015-12-25T18:06:21Z lurker: But I need to learn more before jumping into it :)
2015-12-25T18:07:08Z beach: lurker: I think you need to know that the best thing you can do is to hang out here and ask for advice fairly often, rather than taking one piece of advice and going with it for a long period of time.
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2015-12-25T18:07:46Z lurker: ow ok, i'll lurk more so
2015-12-25T18:08:56Z beach: lurker: A significant number of #lisp participants meet from time to time, either because they know each other, or because they get together at one of several Lisp venues like ELS or ILC.  In time, you might want to do the same.
2015-12-25T18:09:57Z lurker: join the lisp family :)
2015-12-25T18:10:03Z beach: lurker: So if you are serious about this, and if you can afford it, I suggest you show up in Cracow for ELS.  I don't remember the dates by heart, though.
2015-12-25T18:10:26Z beach: lurker: It is a great venue, and you won't regret it.
2015-12-25T18:10:48Z lurker: I'll definitively look into it :)
2015-12-25T18:11:02Z beach: moore33: Speaking of which, you should definitely show up again.
2015-12-25T18:11:28Z beach: lurker: Where are you located?
2015-12-25T18:11:47Z lurker: in europe, somewhere
2015-12-25T18:12:25Z beach: Then you have no excuse not to show up.  Cracow should be possible to get to with a modest budget.  Let me know if you need advice.
2015-12-25T18:12:32Z lurker: ok!
2015-12-25T18:14:26Z beach: lurker: Just saying: most active #lisp participants know a fair amount of the location, name, family members, dietary restrictions, nationality, etc. of other #lisp participants.
2015-12-25T18:15:12Z lurker: I get your point :)
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2015-12-25T18:15:32Z beach: Good. :)
2015-12-25T18:16:16Z lurker: But I'm just a little fella which is just starting to code in Common lisp. I don't even finished the whole book I'm reading.
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2015-12-25T18:17:42Z lurker: But I'll improve and think about it
2015-12-25T18:18:02Z moore33: beach: Yeah; when it is help in Bordeaux I'm trapped like a rat and can't help going :)
2015-12-25T18:18:08Z moore33: s/help/held
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2015-12-25T18:19:35Z beach: moore33: Aww, come to Cracow.  It's a nice town.
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2015-12-25T18:20:09Z moore33: I do have relatives in Warsaw...
2015-12-25T18:20:18Z beach: lurker: For instance, I know that moore33 has a dog with a name that makes sense only to people who know about the intricate French welfare system.
2015-12-25T18:20:33Z lurker: What is his name?
2015-12-25T18:20:38Z beach: Zep.
2015-12-25T18:20:56Z moore33: It's a bit hard to justify taking time from consulting to toodle off to Lisp conferences...
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2015-12-25T18:21:19Z beach: moore33: Zep is right, yes?
2015-12-25T18:21:22Z moore33: beach: Makes sense too if you like French bandes dessinées :)
2015-12-25T18:21:33Z moore33: Yup, Zep! He's sitting right here.
2015-12-25T18:21:49Z beach: moore33: Nice.  I think we will spend a few nights there.  It is not convenient to go directly from Bordeaux to Cracow so we were thinking of discovering Warsaw.
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2015-12-25T18:26:13Z beach: lurker: Are you in France?
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2015-12-25T18:27:32Z beach: lurker: I think you will find that #lisp is populated by many people who don't live in their country of origin.  You have a swede living in Singapore or in France, Americans living in various places, etc.
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2015-12-25T18:30:17Z beach: moore33: I imagine we will take a flight to Warsaw, passing by anything except CDG if possible, spend a night or more there, then take a train to Cracow, spend a few nights there in addition to what ELS requires, then go back the same way, possibly with another few nights in Warsaw.
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2015-12-25T18:35:57Z moore33: When is ELS?
2015-12-25T18:36:24Z beach: Hold on...
2015-12-25T18:36:32Z jsgrant: moore33: European Lisp Symphosian (spelling on last bit).
2015-12-25T18:36:41Z jsgrant: Okay, back to the shadows!
2015-12-25T18:36:43Z jsgrant: o/
2015-12-25T18:36:55Z flip214: jsgrant: the question was "when", not "what".
2015-12-25T18:37:03Z beach: jsgrant: Welcome back!
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2015-12-25T18:37:14Z moore33: jsgrant: I know what it is, I've presented a paper there before (I think!)
2015-12-25T18:37:20Z flip214:  9-10 May 2016
2015-12-25T18:37:20Z flip214: Department of Computer Science
2015-12-25T18:37:21Z flip214: AGH University of Science and Technology, Kraków, Poland
2015-12-25T18:37:25Z flip214: http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/
2015-12-25T18:37:26Z jsgrant: flip214: "Yearly."
2015-12-25T18:37:28Z jsgrant: :^)
2015-12-25T18:37:49Z beach: moore33: http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/
2015-12-25T18:38:03Z flip214: jsgrant: which ones? Mercury, Jupiter, or some as-of-yet-unknown-and-unnamed planet?
2015-12-25T18:38:30Z flip214: even if earth-based, sideric or synodic?
2015-12-25T18:38:48Z jsgrant: flip214: The Netherealm.
2015-12-25T18:39:07Z moore33: beach: Was the conference at Bordeaux in 2008 ELS or something  else? European Lisp Conference?
2015-12-25T18:39:57Z beach: It was an ELS.
2015-12-25T18:40:06Z moore33: Ok.
2015-12-25T18:40:13Z beach: there is nothing else at the EU level as far as I know.
2015-12-25T18:40:20Z beach: At least not anymore.
2015-12-25T18:40:24Z moore33: I don't think I will be at ELS this year, but ya never know.
2015-12-25T18:40:35Z jsgrant: Okay, need to step out again for real and take a nap before tonight; I was going to turn my monitor off, and of course #lisp draws my passive eye. :^) BBL (for real, closing sesison). o/
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2015-12-25T18:41:02Z beach: moore33: For this year, it's to late. :)  I still hope you will be there in 2016.
2015-12-25T18:41:19Z moore33: I was referring to 2016 :)
2015-12-25T18:41:20Z beach: I don't see why that wouldn't be possible.
2015-12-25T18:41:40Z flip214: moore33: this year means ~ one week, there's no ELS anyway ;)
2015-12-25T18:42:14Z beach: moore33: Just write a paper about your new library.
2015-12-25T18:42:22Z beach: What would be the problem?
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2015-12-25T18:43:17Z moore33: Well, first that supposes that my library is original enough (and works enough!) to write a paper about.
2015-12-25T18:43:42Z eudoxia: i say go ahead and do it
2015-12-25T18:44:08Z beach: moore33: As we both know, ELS is not *that* filtering.  Sure, a bit of research will be needed, but you can do it.
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2015-12-25T18:44:31Z beach: moore33: What eudoxia says.
2015-12-25T18:44:32Z moore33: Second, taking the time off from my consulting, where I am really busy, a bit of a stretch.
2015-12-25T18:45:08Z moore33: I'm not that worried about getting a paper accepted :)
2015-12-25T18:45:34Z moore33: We're not talking about SIGGRAPH
2015-12-25T18:45:40Z beach: Hmm.  I am on the program committee, and I don't let just anything pass. :)
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2015-12-25T18:45:58Z moore33: I wouldn't submit just anything :)
2015-12-25T18:46:06Z beach: Seriously, I would be declared unfit to referee your contribution by the program char person
2015-12-25T18:46:16Z moore33: Oh, I'm sure.
2015-12-25T18:46:29Z beach: That person takes her job very seriously.
2015-12-25T18:46:38Z moore33: I'd expect you to recuse yourself.
2015-12-25T18:46:50Z beach: No need.  Her name is Irene Durand.
2015-12-25T18:47:14Z beach: She will do it for me.
2015-12-25T18:47:50Z beach: s/char/chair/
2015-12-25T18:48:13Z moore33: Heh, I agree about Irène. She would probably recuse herself too.
2015-12-25T18:48:17Z beach: Luckily, the easychair software does that very well.
2015-12-25T18:48:28Z beach: Absolutely.
2015-12-25T18:48:44Z beach: lurker: As you can see, many of us know one another.
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2015-12-25T18:50:17Z beach: moore33: She takes her job very seriously, so there will be no opportunity to cheat.
2015-12-25T18:51:15Z beach: The good news is that it means that ELS 2016 will be at least as high quality as the previous ones.
2015-12-25T18:51:16Z synergistics: "Fold-right has interesting properties because it establishes a homomorphism between (cons, ()) and (procedure, initial)." What does that mean? It's from the gnu scheme docs
2015-12-25T18:51:38Z pjb: synergistics: do you know what homomorphism means?
2015-12-25T18:52:13Z beach: pjb: I hope you can make it to ELS 2016.  Many people missed you in London.
2015-12-25T18:52:21Z synergistics: No. Looked it up just now, still a bit confused
2015-12-25T18:52:42Z pjb: beach: unfortunately, most probably not. I'm starting a six-month mission, and I'll be very busy.
2015-12-25T18:52:54Z pjb: ( and no, it's not in lisp :-( )
2015-12-25T18:52:59Z beach: pjb: Crap!
2015-12-25T18:53:33Z beach: pjb: You are a pain in the ass, but may of us like you anyway and would like to meet you at ELS. :)
2015-12-25T18:53:57Z beach: s/may/many/
2015-12-25T18:53:58Z pjb: I should have more free time in the second semester.
2015-12-25T18:54:12Z beach: Ah, so ILC in Tokyo?
2015-12-25T18:54:47Z pjb: We'll see.  I don't know.
2015-12-25T18:55:25Z beach: I actually don't know whether ILC will be in Tokyo or in the second semester.  Just checking.
2015-12-25T18:57:05Z pjb: synergistics: well, don't worry too much about it.  It just means that (equal (fold-right cons () list) list) and (fold-right + 0 '(1 2 3)) == (+ 1 (+ 2 (+ 3 0)))
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2015-12-25T18:59:00Z Jonsky: Good to know I'm not the only newbie here
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2015-12-25T18:59:39Z beach: Jonsky:  True, but you are the only one pasting old text from the logs. :)
2015-12-25T19:00:02Z Jonsky: synergistics: I don't know much about homomorphism in computing but I know it in maths. The way I see it is that (cons 1 (cons 2 nil ))) kind looks like (+ 1 (+ 2 ))
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2015-12-25T19:00:26Z Jonsky: And therefore you can say that cons<==>+ and 0<==> NIL
2015-12-25T19:00:35Z Jonsky: The two lines have similar "shape"
2015-12-25T19:01:01Z Jonsky: beach: I'm so unique and I know it
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2015-12-25T19:03:16Z Jonsky: In maths, we see two thing have similar shape (or structure?) we say that we can just study one and then we will know the property of another. This saves time for us to understand different things.
2015-12-25T19:03:56Z Jonsky: In computing, I guess it's the same idea. We got the same shape of things and we just cut and paste the functions and arguments
2015-12-25T19:04:10Z synergistics: Jonsky: Is that definition equivalent to the category theory definition of a homomorphism?
2015-12-25T19:04:23Z Jonsky: Guess so.
2015-12-25T19:04:38Z Lefeni is now known as Einwq
2015-12-25T19:04:51Z Jonsky: https://jaortega.wordpress.com/2006/03/17/programmers-go-bananas/
2015-12-25T19:04:58Z Jonsky: I remember this funny article
2015-12-25T19:05:00Z Einwq quit (Quit: Leaving)
2015-12-25T19:06:02Z Jonsky: (I just keep guessing.)
2015-12-25T19:07:43Z beach: eudoxia: Are you affected by the floods?
2015-12-25T19:08:53Z eudoxia: beach: no, I live in the capital, but thank you for asking
2015-12-25T19:09:11Z beach: Great!  Just checking.
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2015-12-25T19:09:33Z p_l: moore33: don't worry about being original enough, show something interesting, whether research and/or implementation
2015-12-25T19:10:33Z beach: p_l: Sort of.  ELS *is* an academic conference so it has to be original.  But I don't think what moore33 is doing would have a problem with that.
2015-12-25T19:11:45Z p_l: beach: I believe it doesn't mean it has to be original as in "new and important", though I agree about needing to do original research to present for others instead of empty talk :)
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2015-12-25T19:13:10Z p_l: beach: which reminds me that two academically-related goals of this year I kinda failed :(
2015-12-25T19:13:12Z beach: p_l: Well, for an academic conference, "original" literally means "nobody has done it before".  The "important" part is debatable and subjective.
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2015-12-25T19:13:32Z beach: p_l: Oh, what goals? :(
2015-12-25T19:13:44Z p_l: beach: 1st was to write a book about ZFS Internals
2015-12-25T19:13:57Z p_l: not a book about how to use it, but a book about how and why it works
2015-12-25T19:14:18Z arademaker: does anyone know about any bug in SBCL 1.3.0 that prevents defmacro/g! of LOL to work?
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2015-12-25T19:14:33Z beach: Ah, writing a book is a lot of work.  And if you haven't done it before, it's more work than you might expect.  It's Hofstadter's law again.
2015-12-25T19:14:41Z p_l: it's using basic algorithms in clever ways, among other things - for example, ZFS uses immutability property of its basic data structures to implement data safety
2015-12-25T19:14:41Z Bicyclidine: it's not a bug. LOL assumes that backquote expands fully into conses, which is a nonconformant assumption.
2015-12-25T19:14:53Z synergistics: Are there presentations given at ELS that are recorded?
2015-12-25T19:14:57Z moore33: p_l: I think it's way too early to write a paper about what I'm doing. If it catches on, perhaps I can write one in a year or two.
2015-12-25T19:14:58Z p_l: synergistics: yes
2015-12-25T19:15:10Z p_l: moore33: give a lightning talk?
2015-12-25T19:15:15Z p_l: or just, well, come?
2015-12-25T19:15:28Z moore33: p_l: Kind of hard to justify.
2015-12-25T19:15:32Z beach: moore33: What p_l says.
2015-12-25T19:15:43Z beach: moore33: Justify to whom?
2015-12-25T19:15:50Z p_l: Cracow might be full of smog these days, but it's still a nice place and we haven't went full nationalist yet
2015-12-25T19:16:08Z moore33: To my business' bottom line :)
2015-12-25T19:16:09Z arademaker: @Bicyclidine can you expand on that? any reference?
2015-12-25T19:16:21Z synergistics: p_l: Ah sweet, gonna watch some today
2015-12-25T19:16:24Z Bicyclidine: clhs `
2015-12-25T19:16:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm
2015-12-25T19:16:29Z beach: moore33: You need to chill out a bit from the bottom line.
2015-12-25T19:16:47Z Bicyclidine: "An implementation is free to interpret a backquoted form F1 as any form F2 that, when evaluated, will produce a result that is the same under equal as the result implied by the above definition, provided that the side-effect behavior of the substitute form F2 is also consistent with the description given above."
2015-12-25T19:17:16Z beach: moore33: If you don't take advantage of the opportunities while you still can, you will regret not doing so when it is too late.
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2015-12-25T19:18:31Z p_l: moore33: also, consider if you can get it as tax-reducting expense?
2015-12-25T19:18:45Z beach: moore33: There is a good reason for living in France, and it's not about the bottom line.  It's about having a good quality of life.
2015-12-25T19:18:54Z arademaker: Hum, what is the workaround to make defmacro/g! works with SBCL?
2015-12-25T19:19:01Z moore33: p_l: Well yeah, I could just charge it as a business expense.
2015-12-25T19:19:33Z Bicyclidine: arademaker: i am not aware of any. the whole idea seems to be based on nonconformant assumptions.
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2015-12-25T19:19:41Z p_l: moore33: I'm surely doing so! :)
2015-12-25T19:19:41Z beach: moore33: What price tag do you put on meeting old friends, and meeting new ones?
2015-12-25T19:19:54Z p_l might actually expense LW this year
2015-12-25T19:20:13Z Bicyclidine: you could do some stuff with symbol-macrolet, but anything would basically require removing the "automatic" aspect of things.
2015-12-25T19:21:00Z beach: moore33: I know you are a bit younger than I am, but soon you need to think about what you need to do before you are no longer part of this world.
2015-12-25T19:21:31Z p_l: beach: hell, I'm not even 27 yet, and I'm starting to feel like that
2015-12-25T19:21:59Z beach: p_l: That's actually a good idea, though you need to do it with moderation. :)
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2015-12-25T19:22:27Z arademaker: thanks @Bicyclidine
2015-12-25T19:22:38Z Bicyclidine: no problem
2015-12-25T19:23:43Z beach: p_l: I know I have asked this before, but I don't remember the answer: Are you involved in the organization of ELS 2016?
2015-12-25T19:23:58Z p_l: beach: not yet, but if I can help, I'll
2015-12-25T19:24:17Z beach: Got it.
2015-12-25T19:24:33Z p_l: had a crazy idea at one point to implement live streaming from ELS using YT (and controlled from Lisp, of course xD)
2015-12-25T19:25:14Z p_l: because a big complaint (well, voiced complaint) about last ELS was about availability of recorded talks (how long it took, etc.)
2015-12-25T19:25:16Z moore33: beach: I'd be more keen if Lisp were more than a sideline at the moment. Until fairly recently I hadn't done any appreciable lisp programming for months, if not years.
2015-12-25T19:25:51Z beach: moore33: What's the problem here?  Tax authorities?  Money?  Family?
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2015-12-25T19:27:04Z moore33: There's no problem! I can just think of several things I'd rather do with my time. No offense.
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2015-12-25T19:27:23Z beach: moore33: Oh, OK.  Sure, I can't fix that.
2015-12-25T19:27:38Z p_l: moore33: heh. Part of the reason why I wanted to play around with livestreaming etc. (essentially, lisp-controlled multimedia system for talks) was because I haven't written anything recently :(
2015-12-25T19:28:16Z beach: moore33: I will give you a detailed account of the FANTASTIC time I had in Cracow with all the other fellow Lispers.
2015-12-25T19:28:35Z moore33: beach: *That* sounds just fine :)
2015-12-25T19:28:43Z p_l: biggest "programming" task I can see in next few weeks involves writing a single HTTP endpoint to check for PostgreSQL instance health :/
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2015-12-25T19:29:53Z beach knows that moore33 doesn't have a devoted Lisper in his family the way beach does.
2015-12-25T19:30:22Z moore33: Do need to explain what "GPU" means in a README destined for programmers, or is that bloody obvious?
2015-12-25T19:30:27Z moore33: beach: Not yet :)
2015-12-25T19:30:42Z beach: Ah, right, it may still happen.
2015-12-25T19:30:46Z p_l: moore33: write it down once, just in case
2015-12-25T19:31:08Z p_l: moore33: it might be that it will be read by recovering line-of-business programmer
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2015-12-25T19:32:00Z z0d: heh
2015-12-25T19:32:27Z p_l: this reminds me, I'll have to design a tutorial on network programming
2015-12-25T19:32:50Z p_l: especially the necessary bits of network protocol stacks
2015-12-25T19:33:28Z beach: More work.  Sounds familiar.
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2015-12-25T19:34:26Z beach: Anyway, time to do something else.
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2015-12-25T19:52:42Z pjb: moore33: seems to be bloody obvious, but I won't hold it against you if you write: "GPU (Graphics Processing Unit)" the first time you use the TLA (Tree Letter Abreviation).
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2015-12-25T20:06:38Z moore33: pjb: That's what I did :)
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2015-12-25T20:10:08Z arademaker: Bicyclidine: I found a very clear explanation at https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33724300/macros-that-write-macros-compile-error, first answer.
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2015-12-25T20:18:06Z Kitlith: Hey! I was looking for a library for combinations of items in a list. Anyone here know of anything?
2015-12-25T20:18:14Z Bicyclidine: alexandria has map-combinations.
2015-12-25T20:20:09Z Kitlith: Thanks!
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2015-12-25T20:51:16Z ralt: hi #lisp
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2015-12-25T20:52:46Z ralt: merry christmas!
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2015-12-25T20:59:41Z dxtr: Hi!
2015-12-25T21:00:48Z voidengineer: merry christmas ralt
2015-12-25T21:01:34Z dxtr: Merry christmas, everyone :p
2015-12-25T21:01:46Z dxtr: Also, I have a little question
2015-12-25T21:02:00Z dxtr: I'm making a lisp program to access the dnsimple API
2015-12-25T21:02:24Z dxtr: https://gist.github.com/dxtr/2fbb3859672854b7635e <- My question is basically if that makes sense
2015-12-25T21:02:47Z dxtr: I don't like storing the two-factor token in a global variable but I can't come up with a better way to do it
2015-12-25T21:04:00Z dxtr: I'm trying to learn one or two things here :) The fiancee gave me Land of Lisp
2015-12-25T21:06:18Z moore33: dxtr: She sounds like a keeper :)
2015-12-25T21:08:14Z ralt: dxtr: can't you pass *two-factor-token* to the functions?
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2015-12-25T21:09:09Z ralt: dxtr: I also don't understand the use of the quasiquote there?
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2015-12-25T21:10:34Z moore33: dxtr: Just a couple of critiques of your code: I like hairy nested backquotes as much as anyone, but it would be clearer to write that as (if two-factor `((X-DNSimple-OTP ,(get-two-factor-token)) nil).
2015-12-25T21:11:13Z ec\ is now known as ec
2015-12-25T21:11:16Z moore33: dxtr: Also, use multiple-value-bind to capture status-code and headers directly, intstead of multiple-value-list.
2015-12-25T21:11:18Z moore33: brb
2015-12-25T21:12:41Z dxtr: moore33: Critique is good. I like critique.
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2015-12-25T21:14:43Z dxtr: ralt: I put the quasiquote there in case I want to add more headers.
2015-12-25T21:15:01Z dxtr: The idea was that I might want to add more conditional headers
2015-12-25T21:15:13Z dxtr: But maybe it was a bad idea :)
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2015-12-25T21:30:47Z dxtr: https://gist.github.com/dxtr/2fbb3859672854b7635e <- So more like that?
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2015-12-25T21:34:03Z moore33: dxtr: I like it, but I may have given you bad advice with the quasiquote; the result is different from what you had originally.
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2015-12-25T21:34:31Z dxtr: Yes I can see that :)
2015-12-25T21:34:46Z moore33: `((X-DNSimple-OTP . ,(get-two-factor-token))
2015-12-25T21:35:07Z moore33: for the true case (note the period)...
2015-12-25T21:35:31Z moore33: And perhaps you want '(nil) instead of nil for the false case?
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2015-12-25T21:36:33Z dxtr: I'm not sure yet :) It depends on how drakma handles it
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2015-12-25T21:38:01Z ralt: dxtr: my guts would go with something like this https://gist.github.com/ralt/22c387ddc3c2d44d3352
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2015-12-25T21:39:38Z Bicyclidine: `(,foo) is just (list foo), by the by...
2015-12-25T21:40:34Z ralt: dxtr: refresh, actually
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2015-12-25T21:40:54Z ralt: (although the get-login-credentials function seems superfluous.)
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2015-12-25T22:01:39Z pjb: dxtr: you may "hide" a data object in a closure.
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2015-12-25T22:05:59Z pjb: dxtr: http://sprunge.us/WLMi
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2015-12-25T22:06:09Z pjb: dxtr: try: (inspect *safe*)
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2015-12-25T22:09:12Z pjb: dxtr: for better safety, the safe-box function could encrypt the object, and decrypt it on valid key. You could go so far as to use whitebox encryption even.
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2015-12-25T22:09:36Z axion: is there a predicate to test if something is a sequence?
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2015-12-25T22:09:49Z Bicyclidine: typep foo 'sequence
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2015-12-25T22:15:45Z pjb: There must be some logic behind it…
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