2015-12-22T00:04:32Z blt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T00:04:53Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-12-22T00:08:36Z Fare: hesitating on what speech to give in february: lisp-interface-library? ngnghm? cl as scripting language? reclaim your computer (security)? 2015-12-22T00:09:57Z mtl_: CL sure is the ultimate scripting language if your software is written in CL 2015-12-22T00:10:45Z mtl_: I wish all my software was configured in CL :( 2015-12-22T00:12:48Z phoe_krk: should I put *inferior-lisp* in lisp-mode? 2015-12-22T00:12:50Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-22T00:13:16Z cyraxjoe quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-12-22T00:13:32Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2015-12-22T00:13:35Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T00:13:37Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-12-22T00:16:15Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T00:17:26Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T00:23:41Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T00:24:04Z phoe_krk: mtl_: I need to get a C# CL implementation running 2015-12-22T00:24:10Z phoe_krk: so I can CL while in Unity 2015-12-22T00:24:14Z phoe_krk: and not only 2015-12-22T00:24:40Z Nikotiini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T00:24:55Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T00:25:29Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-12-22T00:30:46Z emma joined #lisp 2015-12-22T00:34:14Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-12-22T00:36:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: phoe_krk: IronLisp? 2015-12-22T00:37:24Z phoe_krk: Petit_Dejeuner: it's dead and superseded by IronScheme which isn't CL enough. 2015-12-22T00:38:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: Oh well, at least we have ArmedBear. 2015-12-22T00:41:38Z phoe_krk: night #parens 2015-12-22T00:44:14Z holycow joined #lisp 2015-12-22T00:51:49Z jsgrant: Back, more-or-less. 2015-12-22T00:52:48Z jasom: IronLisp was alwasy scheme-ish 2015-12-22T00:53:15Z jasom wonders why there hasn't been a CL implemented in scheme. 2015-12-22T00:53:31Z jasom: scheme runs everywhere, and while there might be better kernel languages for CL, it's not terrible 2015-12-22T00:53:46Z jsgrant: jasom: I'm sure there is, somewhere floating around in/on the bowels of Github. 2015-12-22T00:54:05Z mtl_: jasom: maybe because most people who would use scheme, would just use scheme 2015-12-22T00:54:36Z jasom: mtl_: I mean, if you want to run lisp on platform X, chances are scheme has been ported to X 2015-12-22T00:54:57Z jasom: mtl_: so it would give you lisp if you don't want scheme wherever scheme runs 2015-12-22T00:55:40Z jsgrant: Fade: What is some good, scriptable/uberconfigurable piece of OpenSource CL software even? Emacs doesn't really count, and Stumpwm sadly isn't that popular. 2015-12-22T00:56:06Z mtl_: jsgrant: stumpwm does fit all your criteria though 2015-12-22T00:56:13Z nyef: jsgrant: Any CL implementation? 2015-12-22T00:56:18Z mtl_: in my opinion 2015-12-22T00:56:27Z nyef: (By definition, even!) 2015-12-22T00:57:17Z mtl_: there's also another CL window manager 2015-12-22T00:57:39Z mtl_: which I've never tried 2015-12-22T00:57:45Z jsgrant: mtl_: True and hopefully, Paulownia will be even more robust on that front too. I guess I'm just wishing for a full DE or something. 2015-12-22T00:58:05Z jsgrant: mtl_: Can you recall the name? 2015-12-22T00:58:10Z mtl_: paulownia? 2015-12-22T00:58:22Z mtl_: jsgrant: no, but I now where to find it, I think 2015-12-22T00:58:23Z mtl_: hang on 2015-12-22T00:58:26Z jsgrant: mtl_: It's supposed to be Stumpwm's successor. 2015-12-22T00:58:39Z mtl_: oh right i remember reading something about this 2015-12-22T00:58:54Z mtl_: but the name was never saved I guess 2015-12-22T00:59:03Z jsgrant: A lot more abstracted in ways that should make it a lot more portable, too, which I find nice/important in the longish term. 2015-12-22T00:59:22Z mtl_: yeah there'll be wayland eventually right? 2015-12-22T00:59:36Z mtl_ can't wait to ditch Xorg and never look back 2015-12-22T01:00:36Z jsgrant: mtl_: The goal is yes, to have support for multiple display backends. Even potientally to run on Mir, Windows, etc, if the work is put into said backend. There shoudln't be anything in the core that ties it to one system, as stumpwm currently does to xorg. 2015-12-22T01:00:57Z mtl_: right 2015-12-22T01:01:01Z mtl_: that makes a lot of sense 2015-12-22T01:01:24Z mtl_: I've been playing with trying to make an interface agonistic irc client in CL 2015-12-22T01:01:40Z mtl_: which is turning out to be tricky 2015-12-22T01:02:32Z mtl_: but I'm sure I'll be able to abstract it properly once the damn thing works with at least one interface 2015-12-22T01:03:03Z mtl_: right now it's just a terrible mock-up curses interface made with cl-charms 2015-12-22T01:03:16Z froggey_ is now known as froggey 2015-12-22T01:04:07Z jsgrant: The only thing that makes me a tiny bit worried about Paulownia, is there seems like there may be some prefrernce to this qt interface lib, over say something like mcclim. 2015-12-22T01:04:24Z mtl_: jsgrant: I've also been thinking about making a library out of the stumpwm command system 2015-12-22T01:04:30Z jsgrant: But I don't know enough, to know if that is a valid concern for were my priorites are.* 2015-12-22T01:04:35Z mtl_: i've found it really useful for things like bots 2015-12-22T01:04:46Z mtl_: and will probably co-opt it for my client as well 2015-12-22T01:07:16Z zdm joined #lisp 2015-12-22T01:07:17Z mtl_: jsgrant: https://common-lisp.net/project/clfswm/ 2015-12-22T01:08:16Z mtl_: seems more treeish than stumpwm, although i guess technically stumpwm is trees disguised as tiled 2015-12-22T01:08:24Z mtl_: tiles* 2015-12-22T01:09:08Z mtl_: the whole zooming into subtrees looks kinda neat though 2015-12-22T01:09:22Z mtl_: might try to implement that for stumpwm 2015-12-22T01:09:38Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-12-22T01:09:44Z jasom: I actually have the beginnings of a compositing window manager written in clx 2015-12-22T01:10:01Z mtl_: (which, now that i think about it, might not even be that hard 2015-12-22T01:10:04Z jasom: right now it handles the compositing, and is capable of reparenting, but has some bugs when that happens 2015-12-22T01:10:04Z mtl_: ) 2015-12-22T01:10:05Z jsgrant: mtl_: Neat, thanks, bookmarked. Might have time to play around with it before the end of the year. :^) 2015-12-22T01:10:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: "Might have time to play around with it before the end of the year" It just hit me that this means "in the next two weeks" 2015-12-22T01:11:03Z jsgrant: Petit_Dejeuner: Yup, this one went by real quick. 2015-12-22T01:11:13Z nyef: Petit_Dejeuner: Heh. It wasn't so-so long ago that the joke was "maybe next millennium". (-: 2015-12-22T01:11:35Z mtl_: jsgrant: maybe all I'd need is to inherit from tile-group with a slot that specifies a function that takes the "currently zoomed tree" out of the whole tree 2015-12-22T01:11:42Z Petit_Dejeuner: I feel young now. 2015-12-22T01:11:42Z mtl_: and a few methods 2015-12-22T01:11:45Z mtl_: and commands 2015-12-22T01:14:26Z mtl_: might end up a hacky mess though 2015-12-22T01:14:53Z mtl_: jsgrant: i once tried to make groups with common frames using class allocated slots, thinking it would be neat and easy 2015-12-22T01:15:05Z mtl_: turned out to not be neat or easy 2015-12-22T01:16:56Z jsgrant has sooooo many things he wants to implement in Stumpwm, but is either too novice with CL atm, and/or is worried that they will not be compatible with Paulownia and would have to reimplement it. :^P 2015-12-22T01:16:56Z k4rtik quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-12-22T01:17:26Z mtl_: I lack experience in common lisp 2015-12-22T01:17:47Z mtl_: but I've mastered most of the language fairly well through the experience I do have 2015-12-22T01:18:29Z mtl_: and I've grown fairly familiar with parts of the stumpwm source through trying to implement bad ideas and trying to figure out why the hell they don't work 2015-12-22T01:18:31Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T01:18:42Z jsgrant: At least 6 modeline modules, but I'm not worried of those being portable; Mostly some display stuff generally -- like I want a "pane" graphical object where I can display some relatively complex information that wouldn't fit in the modeline, like a week of weather info. 2015-12-22T01:19:05Z mtl_: I do have some neat hacks though, that's I'm overall pretty happy about 2015-12-22T01:19:09Z mtl_: like run-or-toggle 2015-12-22T01:19:47Z jsgrant: Environments like Stumpwm & Emacs are a testiment to how easy/nice Lisp can be to "just get into it". 2015-12-22T01:20:08Z mtl_: run-or-toggle checks if the current window matches; if it does, it sends it to a given group 2015-12-22T01:20:15Z mtl_: if not, it just does run-or-pull 2015-12-22T01:21:22Z mtl_: i use it to stash programs like pavucontrol in a hidden group, and pull them out on demand, do what needs to be done, and send them back with the same keycombo 2015-12-22T01:21:37Z pjb: jasom: butterfly CL is implemented in butterfly scheme. 2015-12-22T01:22:04Z mtl_: jsgrant: I feel like this discussion is better had in #stumpwm though 2015-12-22T01:22:19Z jsgrant: mtl_: You're telling me you don't use a "shit" group, like any self-respecting lazygrub? 2015-12-22T01:22:23Z jsgrant: mtl_: True. 2015-12-22T01:23:08Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-12-22T01:28:56Z sweater joined #lisp 2015-12-22T01:29:20Z sweater is now known as Guest66141 2015-12-22T01:29:47Z jasom: pjb: that's a CLtL1 implementation? 2015-12-22T01:31:15Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T01:34:35Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T01:34:36Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T01:34:56Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-12-22T01:35:05Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-22T01:35:14Z pjb: jasom: most probably, given its age. 2015-12-22T01:35:51Z pjb: Also, it wouldn't be trivial to port butterfly scheme on unix systems. 2015-12-22T01:35:55Z happy-dude quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T01:36:50Z pjb: Since it targetted the BBN Butterfly, a massively parallel computer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBN_Butterfly 2015-12-22T01:37:23Z pjb: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/impl/bbn/0.html 2015-12-22T01:40:01Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-12-22T01:40:50Z nyef: Heey... this sort of looks like a NuMA architecture of some sort, similar to SGI's stuff! 2015-12-22T01:42:36Z nyef: But yeah, 68k processors, and not even the '030? Although the MC88100 looks like it could be interesting... 2015-12-22T01:45:51Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2015-12-22T01:46:08Z treaki_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T01:47:58Z pjb: The 68010 already had the corrections to be able to support multitasked OSes (mostly MOVE SR be a priviledged instruction). 2015-12-22T01:48:27Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T01:49:10Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-12-22T01:49:56Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T01:57:57Z zdm quit (Quit: = "") 2015-12-22T01:58:34Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-12-22T01:59:55Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-12-22T02:01:41Z bcoburn joined #lisp 2015-12-22T02:03:09Z nyef: pjb: Right. And ISTR something about there being crazy hacks and duplicate CPUs required in order to be able to do virtual memory on the 68000, which was also fixed in the '010. 2015-12-22T02:04:06Z bcoburn_q_g quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-22T02:04:12Z nyef: Something about having two CPUs in lock-step, one memory access apart, so that one of them hit the abort first and lost its state, and the other one got an IPI instead and the state could be recovered from that one. 2015-12-22T02:04:50Z nyef: And this wasn't done very often, because the CPUs weren't cheap. 2015-12-22T02:04:56Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-12-22T02:05:41Z bogdanm quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-22T02:06:02Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-12-22T02:06:29Z bogdanm joined #lisp 2015-12-22T02:09:57Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-12-22T02:10:00Z nonopposition quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T02:10:12Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2015-12-22T02:13:06Z Guest66141 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T02:13:22Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-12-22T02:15:40Z nonopposition joined #lisp 2015-12-22T02:17:49Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T02:21:24Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-22T02:24:38Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-12-22T02:28:35Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-12-22T02:29:20Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T02:29:30Z aeth joined #lisp 2015-12-22T02:32:10Z kyfho: so a 700mhz cpu can do 700million things in 1 second? 2015-12-22T02:32:14Z kyfho: is this correct? 2015-12-22T02:33:19Z JuanDaugherty: generally, no 2015-12-22T02:33:48Z JuanDaugherty: unless it can execute instructions in a single clock cycle 2015-12-22T02:34:07Z pilne quit (Quit: Quitting) 2015-12-22T02:34:14Z Bicyclidine: also modern CPUs don't work on such simple correspondences. 2015-12-22T02:34:39Z JuanDaugherty: there are such instructions but actual code executed is much broader 2015-12-22T02:34:55Z kyfho: I meana human can only process few things a second 2015-12-22T02:35:04Z Bicyclidine: I'd say having a 700 MHz CPU means that your CPU has a 700 MHz clock somewhere in it. 2015-12-22T02:35:09Z kyfho: sometimes I dream of making really efficient software 2015-12-22T02:35:15Z Bicyclidine: Maybe. 2015-12-22T02:36:34Z Zhivago: kyfho: Have a look at an instruction manual, and look at the cycles per instruction. 2015-12-22T02:36:37Z kyfho: I mean 10k is 10,000 lines 2015-12-22T02:36:52Z kyfho: each line can be moe that 1 info pece 2015-12-22T02:36:56Z Zhivago: kyfho: And then look at things like hyperthreading and branch prediction and ... 2015-12-22T02:37:10Z kyfho: I mean cant you have a lisp program with lists, and list 100,000 names long? 2015-12-22T02:37:31Z kyfho: 100k memory 2015-12-22T02:37:33Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-12-22T02:37:43Z Bicyclidine: i'm not sure how to respond to any of this. it seems confused. 2015-12-22T02:37:46Z kyfho: and doing searches of thsi data should nto take mch time if its in ram 2015-12-22T02:37:57Z kyfho: cl-prevayler seems smart 2015-12-22T02:38:11Z Zhivago: kyfho: For large lists you would expect to leverage some kind of index -- perhaps a skip list? 2015-12-22T02:39:52Z Warlock[29A] joined #lisp 2015-12-22T02:41:04Z kyfho: wold that be faster? 2015-12-22T02:41:16Z kyfho: I thought lists were pointers in lisp so not need index 2015-12-22T02:42:45Z Zhivago: The index is to skip looking at the unnecessary items. 2015-12-22T02:42:58Z Zhivago: If you have an index, perhaps you just need to look at 10 items rather than 100,000. 2015-12-22T02:45:04Z kyfho: hm 2015-12-22T02:45:42Z kyfho: Zhivago: did you ever make a multi user lisp app with its own internal database? 2015-12-22T02:45:48Z kyfho: no mysql etc 2015-12-22T02:48:58Z Zhivago: kyfo: No, but then I have never hammered nails into my eyes, either. 2015-12-22T02:49:13Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2015-12-22T02:49:31Z Zhivago: kyfho: Why not use an actual database if you need a database? 2015-12-22T02:51:41Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-12-22T02:52:17Z zdm joined #lisp 2015-12-22T02:56:29Z resttime: I cobbled together a barely functioning booru (website with image database that can be searched with tags) with a poorly implemented triplestore database before if that counts. 2015-12-22T02:57:40Z resttime: Hrmm maybe more like naievly and poorly happens to be a result lol. 2015-12-22T02:59:21Z resttime: Pretty fun though (couldn't sleep that day so I wrote code until I dropped) 2015-12-22T03:01:49Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-12-22T03:02:29Z bcoburn_k joined #lisp 2015-12-22T03:02:36Z sekrit joined #lisp 2015-12-22T03:03:14Z resttime: Rather than indexing, I used hashtables for what I think was O(1) searching. 2015-12-22T03:03:35Z nonopposition quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T03:06:11Z bcoburn quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-12-22T03:06:19Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-12-22T03:07:59Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T03:08:27Z jsgrant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T03:14:57Z nonopposition joined #lisp 2015-12-22T03:17:19Z zdm quit (Quit: = "") 2015-12-22T03:18:27Z kyfho: postgresql seems so painful to make run fast 2015-12-22T03:18:32Z kyfho: pain in ass ot learn sql 2015-12-22T03:19:31Z nyef: I've had some pain with making postgresql do certain thinks quickly, but it's usually surprised me HOW quickly it can run them in the end. 2015-12-22T03:19:40Z nyef: You know about EXPLAIN ANALYZE, I hope? 2015-12-22T03:20:52Z kyfho: mm 2015-12-22T03:20:55Z kyfho: no traely 2015-12-22T03:20:57Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-12-22T03:21:06Z Petit_Dejeuner: There's a compile time SQL expression macro for lisp, isn't there? 2015-12-22T03:21:11Z kyfho: so why not jsut use php and postgresql then? 2015-12-22T03:23:25Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T03:23:42Z Mini_Evo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-12-22T03:23:42Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-12-22T03:26:46Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T03:27:03Z nyef: I wouldn't want to touch PHP with a ten-foot snide remark. 2015-12-22T03:27:17Z zdm joined #lisp 2015-12-22T03:28:41Z Zhivago: resttime: Hash tables can be fast, but don't scale particulaly well. 2015-12-22T03:29:56Z Quadrescence: hash tables more like your app is gonna crash tables 2015-12-22T03:31:05Z resttime: Zhivago: Yeah, I was thinking the next time I worked on it I would properly learn how to implement trees as indexs. 2015-12-22T03:31:26Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-12-22T03:31:26Z resttime: If I recall correctly, the B+ tree to be exact. 2015-12-22T03:31:48Z Zhivago: Well, it depends on the scale. If it's something small, like 100,000 items, a hash-table may be appropriate. 2015-12-22T03:32:59Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-22T03:33:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: resttime: What were you using hashe tables for? 2015-12-22T03:33:44Z kyfho: lol 2015-12-22T03:33:48Z resttime: For searching a triplestore database 2015-12-22T03:33:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: ...I was about to implement a B+ tree. 2015-12-22T03:34:09Z resttime: A naievly written one that is 2015-12-22T03:34:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yes. 2015-12-22T03:34:29Z resttime: Oh, I was referring to my triplestore databse 2015-12-22T03:34:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: Either makes sense. 2015-12-22T03:35:19Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T03:35:20Z Zhivago: For a triple store, you probably want per predicate indexes. 2015-12-22T03:36:09Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-12-22T03:36:54Z Zhivago: (Since the fanout distribution can be expected to be highly variable) 2015-12-22T03:36:55Z Petit_Dejeuner: "triple store" What is this for? An expert system? 2015-12-22T03:37:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: NLP? 2015-12-22T03:37:05Z resttime: I had three difference indexes I think. 2015-12-22T03:37:29Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-22T03:39:50Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-12-22T03:43:15Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T03:43:41Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-12-22T03:44:44Z kyfho: lisp!! I dream of being god at it! 2015-12-22T03:44:52Z kyfho: hows it feel to be good at lisp? 2015-12-22T03:44:55Z kyfho: prgramming fun? 2015-12-22T03:45:20Z resttime: Petit_Dejeuner: Not too sure, thought it would be more interesting than SQL databases and I think Allegro Lisp has their own kinda thing called AllegroGraph 2015-12-22T03:48:02Z Zhivago: kyfho: It feels not entirely unlike having an ice-cream cone. 2015-12-22T03:48:23Z resttime: kyfho: Wish I could answer but I don't qualify :( 2015-12-22T03:48:56Z kyfho: ice cream cone 2015-12-22T03:49:00Z kyfho: that sounds like happiness 2015-12-22T03:49:37Z pillton: Zhivago: With or without ice cream? 2015-12-22T03:49:53Z kyfho: it implies ice cream on the cone duh 2015-12-22T03:50:14Z Zhivago: pillton: It varies. 2015-12-22T03:50:25Z kyfho: can you keep data in ram in lisp, and the control file moving out to clients or in from clients to filesystem? 2015-12-22T03:50:32Z kyfho: thus keeping the app size small? 2015-12-22T03:50:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: resttime: When you finish your allegro binding you'll qualify. 2015-12-22T03:50:52Z Petit_Dejeuner is 2 lazy to do anything himself 2015-12-22T03:51:12Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-12-22T03:53:40Z resttime: Petit_Dejeuner: It's in the lisp version of "finished" lol 2015-12-22T03:53:56Z resttime: The not so good version that is 2015-12-22T03:55:30Z jaykru quit (Quit: leaving desu) 2015-12-22T03:56:10Z resttime: Though I guess one day again I'll work on it to support the Allegro5.1 beta and to be much better. 2015-12-22T03:57:25Z kyfho: is lisp really lots more fun than java say? 2015-12-22T03:57:34Z kyfho: python is so boring 2015-12-22T03:58:03Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T03:58:13Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T03:59:12Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-12-22T03:59:30Z mtl_: kyfho: i would say so, once you grasp some of the more unique concepts like meta-programming 2015-12-22T03:59:34Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-22T03:59:41Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2015-12-22T04:00:21Z Zhivago: kyfho: It is more fun than six puppies in a sack. 2015-12-22T04:01:24Z treaki__ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T04:01:37Z mtl_: lisp syntax does fully make sense until you understand macros(although i still think it's very nice and clean, with no bullshit) 2015-12-22T04:01:44Z mtl_: doesn't* 2015-12-22T04:02:34Z bcoburn_k: I probably don't fully understand macros, but just the low bullshit is really nice 2015-12-22T04:03:11Z mtl_: yeah, no worrying about precedence and things like that 2015-12-22T04:03:21Z InvalidCo: it also makes a lot of sense when you write your first lisp parser 2015-12-22T04:04:36Z mtl_: people who tell you lisp has complicated syntax don't know what they're talking about 2015-12-22T04:04:58Z bcoburn_k: there are people who say that? 2015-12-22T04:05:02Z Zhivago: mtl: (push a b) what gets pushed onto what? 2015-12-22T04:05:19Z mtl_: a onto b 2015-12-22T04:05:35Z treaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-12-22T04:06:15Z mtl_: bcoburn_k: yeah, but mostly of the "hurr durr parentheses" type 2015-12-22T04:06:21Z Zhivago: (setf a b) what gets set to what? 2015-12-22T04:06:31Z mtl_: a set to b 2015-12-22T04:06:34Z InvalidCo: :) 2015-12-22T04:06:46Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-12-22T04:06:52Z Zhivago: Lisp does have a complex and arbitrary grammar. 2015-12-22T04:07:07Z Zhivago: It requires memorizing a lot of random positional meanings. 2015-12-22T04:07:38Z nyef: There are some functions and macros that I have to look up almost every time I use them. 2015-12-22T04:07:48Z InvalidCo: well, luckily common lisp is not every lisp 2015-12-22T04:07:50Z nyef: ELT and NTH being two cases in point! 2015-12-22T04:08:20Z bcoburn joined #lisp 2015-12-22T04:08:29Z Zhivago: Tokenization is also not trivial -- is 100.000x1 a number? How about 100.000e1? 2015-12-22T04:08:36Z InvalidCo: I don't know about your setup but slime somehow shows function parameters in the status bar (or whatever it is called) of emacs 2015-12-22T04:08:42Z InvalidCo: for me 2015-12-22T04:08:45Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-22T04:09:06Z bcoburn_k quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T04:09:40Z mtl_: Zhivago: I guess what i meant is that lisp code is structurally fairly simple; just a binary tree 2015-12-22T04:10:31Z Zhivago: s-expressions have a simple structure, sure. 2015-12-22T04:10:54Z Zhivago: But that's just the paper that lisp language is written on top of. 2015-12-22T04:14:07Z Zhivago: invalidco: Sure -- you can use ides to help with complex grammars. 2015-12-22T04:14:30Z mtl_: it's also more or less the entire point of lisp 2015-12-22T04:14:41Z mtl_: that the code is in this simple data structure 2015-12-22T04:16:35Z mtl_: as for remembering the order of stuff, that's what slime is for :) 2015-12-22T04:16:42Z Zhivago: Let's say that English has a very simple grammar because it can be written using 26 letters and some punctuation. 2015-12-22T04:16:49Z Zhivago: Does this say anything about English grammar? 2015-12-22T04:17:21Z Zhivago: After all, the language is in that simple data structure ... 2015-12-22T04:18:17Z psy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T04:19:02Z mtl_: well, the structure of english is not really its letters and punctuation, that's just orthography 2015-12-22T04:19:52Z Zhivago: Much like s-exps. 2015-12-22T04:20:05Z Zhivago: What does (a b c) mean in lisp? 2015-12-22T04:20:09Z bcoburn: I think saying that lisp is clean and low bullshit is a slightly different thing than saying it has a simple grammar. by way of contrast, I write some VBA at work, and that requires "set x = y" for variables that are objects and "x = y" for variables that aren't 2015-12-22T04:20:36Z bcoburn: lisp doesn't have that sort of thing, even if it is complicated 2015-12-22T04:21:20Z InvalidCo: Zhivago: what does a b c mean in english? 2015-12-22T04:21:43Z Zhivago: Invalid: It depends on context -- is your point that lisp has a complex grammar, like English? :) 2015-12-22T04:21:55Z mtl_: the structure of english is more like SVO 2015-12-22T04:21:59Z mtl_: or that's one structure you can use 2015-12-22T04:22:01Z Bicyclidine: it's easy to lex. like english without having to remember where capital letters go. 2015-12-22T04:22:30Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-12-22T04:22:44Z mtl_: i feel like I'm saying tons of contradictory stuff 2015-12-22T04:23:04Z mtl_: but oh well, it's almost morning 2015-12-22T04:23:14Z Zhivago: mtl: Awandering we will go. 2015-12-22T04:24:33Z mtl_: the gist of what I'm trying to say is: something about the way lisp is expressed is very simple in a way that makes it very powerful 2015-12-22T04:24:48Z mtl_: fill in technical terms wherever you want :) 2015-12-22T04:25:56Z Zhivago: mtl: Sure -- it has a nice way of structuring text that avoids most of the issues of tokenization and provides clear limits for parsing. 2015-12-22T04:27:07Z mtl_: Zhivago: yeah, see nice and concise 2015-12-22T04:27:18Z mtl_: i get so scatterbrained and rambly when I don't sleep 2015-12-22T04:27:28Z mtl_: most people do, I think :P 2015-12-22T04:28:24Z broken_clock joined #lisp 2015-12-22T04:28:34Z InvalidCo: I think that the greatest advantage of s-expressions is programming programming programs 2015-12-22T04:29:00Z mtl_: yeah 2015-12-22T04:29:42Z mtl_: the ease of treating code as data 2015-12-22T04:31:47Z mtl_: it's like the code is its own parse tree 2015-12-22T04:34:05Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-12-22T04:34:07Z zdm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T04:35:09Z InvalidCo: to me, the funny part of comparing lisp, english and vba/sql/others is that the latter is the most formal 2015-12-22T04:35:33Z InvalidCo: seeking to emulate english to some extent with all those keywords thrown in the middle of expressions 2015-12-22T04:37:07Z InvalidCo: english is a natural language and as such it has many regional and occupational variations 2015-12-22T04:37:45Z Zhivago: Reminds me of LOOP. 2015-12-22T04:38:21Z InvalidCo: lisp, while it is a programming language, has some of that vibe...especially when you dive into projects with wacky dsls :) 2015-12-22T04:39:19Z mtl_: InvalidCo: and strange academic lisps based on fairly new computer science research 2015-12-22T04:39:25Z mtl_: like kernel 2015-12-22T04:39:33Z mtl_: well i guess kernel *is* the research 2015-12-22T04:40:28Z mtl_: then there's that lisp where a function is an actual list 2015-12-22T04:40:36Z mtl_: that you can apply list operations to directly 2015-12-22T04:41:35Z mtl_: I forget what its name is 2015-12-22T04:42:22Z Bicyclidine: early lisps were like that. 2015-12-22T04:42:32Z mtl_: there's a newer one as well 2015-12-22T04:42:34Z Bicyclidine: you can probably do it in some simple ones. maybe pico lisp. 2015-12-22T04:42:43Z mtl_: that might be the one yeah 2015-12-22T04:43:42Z mtl_: I've been wanting to implement this in CL 2015-12-22T04:44:09Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-12-22T04:44:21Z mtl_: whenever I find a novel(to me) lisp idea I prefer to implement it in CL so I can play with it in familiar territory 2015-12-22T04:45:45Z mtl_: dunno if picolisp lets you do weird stuff like pushing code to a function though 2015-12-22T04:45:51Z mtl_: but that would be kinda neat 2015-12-22T04:46:56Z cmoneylulz quit (Client Quit) 2015-12-22T04:49:06Z InvalidCo: hmm 2015-12-22T04:49:41Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-12-22T04:52:55Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-12-22T04:54:33Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-12-22T04:55:07Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-12-22T04:56:33Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T04:56:36Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T04:59:26Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T05:00:08Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-12-22T05:00:18Z 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I deleted and started retyping multiple times before I figured out what I was doing lol. 2015-12-22T05:14:08Z resttime: Spooky. 2015-12-22T05:14:37Z resttime: Was for a normal sentence if I recall correctly. 2015-12-22T05:15:10Z mtl_: i'll do weird things like write (+= a 1) then not notice until it fails to compile 2015-12-22T05:16:44Z mtl_: well maybe not += 2015-12-22T05:16:56Z mtl_: that's a bad example, if I wrote that I'd get myself checked 2015-12-22T05:17:15Z mtl_: definitely (f a b) instead of f(a, b) though 2015-12-22T05:18:56Z mtl_: I'll also get extremely frustrated with the comparative lack of abstractive power 2015-12-22T05:19:20Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-12-22T05:20:31Z broken_clock quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-12-22T05:25:45Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-12-22T05:27:41Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-12-22T05:31:55Z ThePhoeron quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-22T05:32:45Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-22T05:32:48Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2015-12-22T05:33:14Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-12-22T05:35:37Z Kaisyu quit (Client Quit) 2015-12-22T05:41:32Z scottj quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-12-22T05:48:09Z ThePhoeron joined #lisp 2015-12-22T06:09:17Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2015-12-22T06:23:31Z zdm joined #lisp 2015-12-22T06:23:44Z zdm quit (Client Quit) 2015-12-22T06:25:55Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-12-22T06:27:50Z Jonsky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T06:29:12Z iddqd joined #lisp 2015-12-22T06:30:38Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-12-22T06:44:35Z mea-culpa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T06:57:07Z zdm joined #lisp 2015-12-22T06:59:06Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-12-22T07:00:49Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-12-22T07:02:35Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T07:09:30Z fekwjfljflejlfj joined #lisp 2015-12-22T07:11:10Z kanru joined #lisp 2015-12-22T07:14:58Z moore33 joined #lisp 2015-12-22T07:16:58Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-12-22T07:19:01Z zdm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T07:19:41Z zdm joined #lisp 2015-12-22T07:21:03Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-12-22T07:22:26Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-12-22T07:24:22Z k4rtik joined #lisp 2015-12-22T07:24:23Z k4rtik quit (Changing host) 2015-12-22T07:24:23Z k4rtik joined #lisp 2015-12-22T07:24:52Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T07:28:19Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-12-22T07:29:29Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-12-22T07:29:57Z lokulin left #lisp 2015-12-22T07:33:14Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-12-22T07:37:35Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-22T07:39:36Z reggy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T07:39:55Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-22T07:43:43Z zdm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T07:44:24Z zdm joined #lisp 2015-12-22T07:53:35Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T07:54:06Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-12-22T07:54:27Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-22T07:57:39Z asdf-man joined #lisp 2015-12-22T07:58:10Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:07:03Z Th30n joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:08:33Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:09:21Z Guest66141 joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:09:30Z pt1 quit (Client Quit) 2015-12-22T08:10:20Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:10:35Z asdf-man left #lisp 2015-12-22T08:11:26Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T08:11:32Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:14:00Z Guest66141 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-22T08:18:28Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:23:49Z Bicyclidine: Wasn't there some way to have a subclass provide its own initforms for inherited slots? 2015-12-22T08:25:25Z nonopposition quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T08:26:47Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:27:10Z blub: bicyclidine: default-initargs ? 2015-12-22T08:27:31Z moore33: Bicyclidine:Just specify the slot with initform in the subclass. 2015-12-22T08:27:42Z Bicyclidine: moore33: does it not override it or whatever? 2015-12-22T08:27:53Z Bicyclidine: blub: probably what i was thinking of. 2015-12-22T08:28:14Z moore33: Bicyclidine: See http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/04_cda.htm. It's more like the union of the declarations. 2015-12-22T08:28:20Z Mandus_ is now known as Mandus 2015-12-22T08:28:43Z Bicyclidine: hm. weird, but works 2015-12-22T08:28:45Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:28:48Z Bicyclidine: thanks 2015-12-22T08:28:59Z moore33: Bicyclidine: CLOS is not C++ :) 2015-12-22T08:30:53Z nonopposition joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:31:09Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:37:20Z synchromesh: moore33: Amen! 2015-12-22T08:38:17Z Colleen quit (Quit: See you, space cowboy...) 2015-12-22T08:38:32Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:38:32Z Colleen joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:41:03Z Colleen_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:41:10Z isoraqathedh quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-12-22T08:41:15Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:42:18Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:42:39Z Colleen__ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:42:48Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:43:18Z Colleen_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-12-22T08:43:18Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-22T08:43:29Z Colleen quit (Quit: See you, space cowboy...) 2015-12-22T08:45:55Z fekwjfljflejlfj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T08:47:44Z Xach_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-22T08:47:45Z axion quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-22T08:47:45Z vert2_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-22T08:47:45Z nydel_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-22T08:47:45Z kyfho quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T08:47:52Z Xach joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:48:06Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:48:24Z mwehner quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-22T08:48:37Z mwehner joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:48:44Z vert2 joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:48:50Z nydel joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:49:13Z axion joined #lisp 2015-12-22T08:53:15Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T08:59:48Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T09:00:47Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-12-22T09:02:37Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-12-22T09:03:16Z fekwjfljflejlfj joined #lisp 2015-12-22T09:08:51Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-12-22T09:09:01Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T09:10:13Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-12-22T09:10:33Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-12-22T09:13:47Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-12-22T09:20:55Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T09:27:40Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-22T09:27:53Z bogdanm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-12-22T09:28:33Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-12-22T09:29:28Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-12-22T09:30:24Z bogdanm joined #lisp 2015-12-22T09:31:20Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-22T09:34:15Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-22T09:35:09Z bogdanm quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-12-22T09:40:05Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-22T09:40:37Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-12-22T09:40:49Z Th30n quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-12-22T09:41:11Z Th30n joined #lisp 2015-12-22T09:42:34Z Th30n quit (Client Quit) 2015-12-22T09:42:54Z Th30n joined #lisp 2015-12-22T09:47:06Z wolfcore quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T09:47:31Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-12-22T09:48:14Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-12-22T09:48:38Z zdm quit (Quit: = "") 2015-12-22T09:50:15Z zdm joined #lisp 2015-12-22T09:51:51Z shookees quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-12-22T09:55:26Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-12-22T09:57:11Z wolfcore joined #lisp 2015-12-22T09:57:26Z m0li quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-12-22T09:57:36Z wolfcore is now known as Guest4677 2015-12-22T09:59:28Z zdm quit (Quit: = "") 2015-12-22T10:00:08Z sjw joined #lisp 2015-12-22T10:00:08Z sjw quit (Client Quit) 2015-12-22T10:00:19Z dim: there was a very impressive music composition software released recently that's been coded in common lisp, rings a bell? 2015-12-22T10:01:30Z z0d: no, but maybe it plucks the guitar 2015-12-22T10:04:04Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-12-22T10:05:17Z dim: I think it was http://www.opusmodus.com 2015-12-22T10:08:28Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-12-22T10:08:31Z bogdanm joined #lisp 2015-12-22T10:09:58Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-12-22T10:11:09Z z0d: written in CCL? 2015-12-22T10:16:03Z dim: exposes CL with music specific "tools", can't remember if the implementation was specified 2015-12-22T10:16:26Z z0d: dim: Clozure is mentioned on the About page 2015-12-22T10:18:04Z dim: https://opusmodus.com/forums/topic/309-how-to-install-quicklisp-beta/ 2015-12-22T10:18:08Z dim: yeah seems to be CCL 2015-12-22T10:21:01Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-12-22T10:21:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-12-22T10:21:01Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-12-22T10:23:26Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-12-22T10:27:01Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-12-22T10:32:03Z mea-culpa joined #lisp 2015-12-22T10:34:55Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T10:36:31Z sigjuice_ quit (K-Lined) 2015-12-22T10:36:31Z fluter quit (K-Lined) 2015-12-22T10:36:46Z sigjuice joined #lisp 2015-12-22T10:40:01Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-12-22T10:46:58Z cibs quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T10:52:01Z cibs joined #lisp 2015-12-22T10:56:58Z Th30n_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T10:58:28Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-12-22T10:59:11Z fikusz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-12-22T10:59:44Z cibs quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T10:59:45Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-12-22T11:00:38Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-12-22T11:04:48Z cibs joined #lisp 2015-12-22T11:14:50Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-12-22T11:16:01Z Th30n_ is now known as Th30n 2015-12-22T11:16:21Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-12-22T11:18:49Z cibs quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T11:18:49Z cibs_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T11:21:45Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2015-12-22T11:23:20Z cibs_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-22T11:23:51Z cibs joined #lisp 2015-12-22T11:25:00Z cibs quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T11:26:22Z treaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-12-22T11:28:41Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Every chapter is a gem. 2015-12-22T13:26:46Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T13:26:50Z zdm: drmeister: Thats not really aimed at beginner programmers though 2015-12-22T13:26:54Z zdm: cl is my first language 2015-12-22T13:27:00Z mtl_: zdm: nice 2015-12-22T13:27:03Z drmeister: Oh 2015-12-22T13:27:13Z drmeister: How about "Land of Lisp"? 2015-12-22T13:27:32Z mtl_: zdm: how's it doing as a first language? 2015-12-22T13:27:32Z drmeister: It's a bit goofy but it's got lots of examples. 2015-12-22T13:27:39Z zdm: Reading Common Lisp - A Gentle Introduction To Symbolic Computation 2015-12-22T13:27:47Z zdm: Then im going to read Land of Lisp 2015-12-22T13:27:54Z zdm: mtl_: A lot of fun 2015-12-22T13:28:00Z mtl_: :D 2015-12-22T13:28:13Z zdm: Not really difficult to grasp, its syntax is incredibly simple and minimalistic 2015-12-22T13:28:21Z z0d: make sure you also read Practical Common Lisp 2015-12-22T13:28:24Z zdm: Just little things here and there take a second 2015-12-22T13:28:40Z mtl_: i've always thought that the reason some programmers can't get into lisp is because they've learned another language first and it makes lisp seem "wrong" somehow 2015-12-22T13:29:02Z zdm: mtl_: Sounds close minded 2015-12-22T13:29:36Z zdm: z0d: For sure 2015-12-22T13:29:38Z mtl_: well, it's very scary to learn to think in one(perhaps limited) way and then having it all challenged 2015-12-22T13:29:40Z zdm: Eventually 2015-12-22T13:30:14Z zdm: mtl_: To some its scary, others find it enjoyable im sure 2015-12-22T13:30:21Z zdm: Maybe lisp isnt meant for everyone 2015-12-22T13:30:27Z mtl_: oh yeah, it's not universal 2015-12-22T13:30:32Z mtl_: and no, definitely not 2015-12-22T13:30:43Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T13:30:51Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-12-22T13:31:03Z mtl_: if we can invent a programming language everyone can agree on using, it'd be a minor revolution 2015-12-22T13:31:31Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-12-22T13:31:43Z zdm: mtl_: Oh, for my programming future, can I learn OOP using cl? 2015-12-22T13:31:51Z zdm: Some peeps are telling me to make sure to learn oop 2015-12-22T13:32:07Z mtl_: zdm: yeah CL has oop 2015-12-22T13:32:15Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-12-22T13:32:32Z mtl_: many here(including me) would say CL does oop the right way, as opposed to languages like java 2015-12-22T13:32:38Z mtl_: so you've come to the right place :) 2015-12-22T13:32:42Z z0d: different languages serve different purpose 2015-12-22T13:32:57Z z0d: s* 2015-12-22T13:34:54Z mtl_: zdm: have you encountered macros yet? 2015-12-22T13:35:22Z mtl_: z0d: yeah, i wouldn't program AVR chips in common lisp(or any lisp at all) 2015-12-22T13:35:30Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-12-22T13:36:21Z mtl_: lisp might be the most general purpose language we have so far though, due to the extensibility of the language itself 2015-12-22T13:36:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T13:37:14Z zdm: mtl_: The book has been using macros but hasnt described the difference between macros and functions besides the fact that macros dont have to evaluate their first argument 2015-12-22T13:37:26Z zdm: Thats all I know about macros so far, im only on chapter 5 of the book 2015-12-22T13:37:29Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-12-22T13:37:30Z zdm: So more to come :P 2015-12-22T13:37:35Z z0d: not entirely true 2015-12-22T13:37:35Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T13:37:42Z mtl_: actually macros don't have to evaluate any of their argument 2015-12-22T13:37:44Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T13:37:45Z z0d: in a macro you control what to evaluate 2015-12-22T13:37:49Z mtl_: arguments* 2015-12-22T13:37:58Z H4ns: mtl_: why not? https://github.com/mabragor/cl-larval/ 2015-12-22T13:38:28Z mtl_: hah, that's 2015-12-22T13:38:39Z mtl_: i dunno man 2015-12-22T13:38:52Z H4ns: i do. 2015-12-22T13:39:19Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2015-12-22T13:40:32Z mtl_: this looks very strange to me, but ok 2015-12-22T13:40:35Z mtl_: I just use C 2015-12-22T13:40:42Z mtl_: C works fine for this sort of thing 2015-12-22T13:42:43Z mtl_: so how would you write stuff, with macros that generate assembly? 2015-12-22T13:44:02Z H4ns: mtl_: it really depends. i'm also using c sometimes, but for things that require longer attention, i prefer more expressive programming languages. and generating assembly from lisp is pretty nice because lisp macros are nice. 2015-12-22T13:44:39Z H4ns: mtl_: all i'm saying is that lisp can make pretty nice tooling for embedded work if you don't mind spending time on your tooling. 2015-12-22T13:45:08Z mtl_: yeah I'm sure there are ways 2015-12-22T13:45:14Z mtl_: and i guess it is kind of a neat idea 2015-12-22T13:45:44Z zdm: Do you guys feel limited when using a non-lisp language? 2015-12-22T13:45:54Z mtl_: zdm: yes 2015-12-22T13:46:01Z Oladon1: zdm: very much 2015-12-22T13:46:01Z mtl_: very much so 2015-12-22T13:46:04Z Oladon1 is now known as Oladon 2015-12-22T13:46:19Z H4ns: i feel inconvenienced. 2015-12-22T13:46:29Z mtl_: especially python 2015-12-22T13:46:36Z mtl_ despises python 2015-12-22T13:46:47Z Oladon: H4ns put it better 2015-12-22T13:47:57Z mtl_: i feel like it's harder to come up with solutions to issues because I'll think of a lispy solution then have to ignore that and think of a more crufty way of doing it 2015-12-22T13:48:00Z mtl_: which feels wrong 2015-12-22T13:48:35Z zdm: hah 2015-12-22T13:48:44Z zdm: Just code lisp in python :P 2015-12-22T13:49:01Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-12-22T13:49:17Z mtl_: fuckin python man 2015-12-22T13:49:22Z mtl_: that was *my* first language :P 2015-12-22T13:49:37Z zdm: Ohh, how was the transition from that to lisp? 2015-12-22T13:49:40Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T13:49:46Z mtl_: well 2015-12-22T13:50:01Z mtl_: first i transitioned into php and perl(for specific purposes) 2015-12-22T13:50:02Z mtl_: then C 2015-12-22T13:50:07Z mtl_: *then* lisp 2015-12-22T13:50:13Z zdm: php 2015-12-22T13:50:17Z salonbeyefendisi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T13:50:19Z zdm: I dread the day I have to learn that 2015-12-22T13:50:34Z mtl_: I think it's irresponsible to use php 2015-12-22T13:50:51Z mtl_: given the amount of php implementations on the web that have known security holes 2015-12-22T13:51:41Z mtl_: I've seen some statistics of something like 80% of running php implementations don't have the latest security fixes(at whatever time the statistic was taken) 2015-12-22T13:51:58Z zdm: Thats scary 2015-12-22T13:52:23Z mtl_: anyway, the transition into lisp was quite hard for me 2015-12-22T13:52:44Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2015-12-22T13:52:44Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T13:52:45Z mtl_: I mean i've still got some of my absolutely terrible early projects lying around 2015-12-22T13:52:49Z mtl_: the code makes me cringe 2015-12-22T13:53:18Z zdm: mtl_: 'what was i thinking!?' 2015-12-22T13:53:49Z mtl_: well one of them was "this was clearly written after only just finish like chapter 4 of PCL" 2015-12-22T13:53:57Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-12-22T13:54:07Z Guest66141 joined #lisp 2015-12-22T13:56:40Z mtl_: prolog is another mind-blowing language to learn 2015-12-22T13:57:06Z mtl_: very different and interesting way of thinking about computing 2015-12-22T13:57:26Z zdm: Ill put on the list of languages to learn 2015-12-22T13:57:32Z mtl_: I've yet to find something to use prolog for 2015-12-22T13:57:40Z zdm: But Im thinking im going to learn c after I have fun with lisp for a while 2015-12-22T13:57:42Z mtl_: but I'm still very happy about figuring out how it all works :P 2015-12-22T13:59:41Z mtl_: zdm: i think the more programming languaes you learn(especially ones with unique computations methods), the more general your understanding of computation will be 2015-12-22T13:59:45Z mtl_: on an intuitive level 2015-12-22T14:03:36Z Xach_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T14:04:24Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-12-22T14:05:30Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-22T14:06:46Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2015-12-22T14:07:08Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-12-22T14:07:54Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-12-22T14:07:57Z Demosthenex quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-22T14:08:02Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T14:12:35Z jchmrt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T14:13:10Z warweasle: zdm: You can get a very good understanding of prolog style logic by reading (and working along with) Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. (PAIP) 2015-12-22T14:13:53Z zdm: warweasle: Ill check it out 2015-12-22T14:15:09Z z0d: that's a very good book. nice, clean code examples 2015-12-22T14:15:17Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-12-22T14:15:31Z Guest66141 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-22T14:16:11Z warweasle: z0d: It made me the man I am today. 2015-12-22T14:16:52Z warweasle: z0d: That and years of mental anguish, but mostly PAIP. 2015-12-22T14:21:17Z Th30n quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-12-22T14:22:50Z milanj joined #lisp 2015-12-22T14:24:02Z jchmrt joined #lisp 2015-12-22T14:25:20Z zdm: warweasle: Any idea the kind of math inside paradigms of artificial intelligence programming? 2015-12-22T14:25:21Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-12-22T14:25:23Z zdm: Curious 2015-12-22T14:26:15Z mtl_: zdm: there's a ton of different approaches that are useful for different things 2015-12-22T14:26:28Z mtl_: by no means am I the right person to answer 2015-12-22T14:26:38Z zdm: yeah 2015-12-22T14:26:56Z mtl_: one of the algorithms that interests me most in AI-ish territory is genetic algorithms 2015-12-22T14:26:56Z warweasle: zdm: I don't think there is much. 2015-12-22T14:27:28Z zdm: mtl_: I would love to learn AI 2015-12-22T14:27:30Z mtl_: which applies the principles of genetics to "evolve" algorithms for solving problems 2015-12-22T14:27:33Z zdm: Really interests me 2015-12-22T14:27:53Z mtl_: actually, the "" is unnecessary 2015-12-22T14:27:56Z zdm: To automate our lives away 2015-12-22T14:27:59Z zdm: THat seems fun 2015-12-22T14:27:59Z warweasle: mtl_: Very cool stuff, but it takes a while to evolve it. 2015-12-22T14:28:01Z mtl_: it really does evolve them 2015-12-22T14:28:07Z mtl_: warweasle: yeah 2015-12-22T14:28:14Z mtl_: warweasle: i've been meaning to learn them 2015-12-22T14:28:29Z mtl_: i've always wanted to experiment with genetic programming in the context of music 2015-12-22T14:28:41Z mtl_: it's been done before though 2015-12-22T14:29:05Z warweasle: mtl_: Lisp is really good for that, you can just create a list of functions and with a stack based virtual machine, it's fairly easy. I did it once but I lost it in a system crash. 2015-12-22T14:29:35Z Zhivago: You might also want to check out Koza's work with sexual reproduction of algorithms. 2015-12-22T14:29:55Z mtl_: the issue with music is the fitness test 2015-12-22T14:30:00Z gko: Hello, is there something like Clojure's leiningen "uberjar" in Common Lisp? Basically, I'd like to develop on my machine and deploy on machines that don't access the Internet, so if I use for example systems X, Y, Z, etc..., that "thing" would copy all the necessary systems in some directory, write some code to set the system directories and set the environment, etc..., pack everything so that when unpacked on the target machines, 2015-12-22T14:30:00Z gko: which have already a CL environment, just running a specific script would run "main"... 2015-12-22T14:30:02Z mtl_: since there is no formal fitness test for music 2015-12-22T14:30:13Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-12-22T14:30:17Z mtl_: but i've seen some websites that use user feedback as their fitness test 2015-12-22T14:30:33Z warweasle: mtl_: I just strap a person to a chair like in Clockwork Orange. 2015-12-22T14:30:35Z Xach_: gko: nothing like that. 2015-12-22T14:30:48Z Xach_: gko: there are parts and pieces but nothing complete 2015-12-22T14:30:59Z warweasle: mtl_: They can also check the food in my fridge. 2015-12-22T14:31:14Z mtl_: :D 2015-12-22T14:31:16Z gko: Xach_: OK, too bad... 2015-12-22T14:31:20Z Xach_: gko: e.g. quicklisp can bundle a collection of systems and their prerequisites, asdf can build a single FASL for a system and its prerequisites, but that's not an end-to-end solution 2015-12-22T14:31:44Z mtl_: I'm not happy with my appartment until I can treat my wall as code, and in turn as data 2015-12-22T14:33:01Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T14:33:08Z mtl_: (defmacro wall-to-door (wall) ...) 2015-12-22T14:33:47Z gko: Xach_: yeah, it doesn't need to be as sweet as an uberjar, which can run standalone, but having all the necessary systems + own code and use the CL on the machine to run "in place"... 2015-12-22T14:33:57Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-12-22T14:34:19Z gko: I'll check quicklisp regarding the "bundle a collection of systems and their prerequisites"... 2015-12-22T14:34:44Z Xach_: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/bundles.html has the documentation 2015-12-22T14:34:54Z Xach_: if you have trouble using it, let me know 2015-12-22T14:35:01Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-12-22T14:35:05Z gko: Xach_: OK, thanks! 2015-12-22T14:35:35Z mtl_: ah well, christmas dinner with the family and such... bbl 2015-12-22T14:35:41Z gko: Now, I resort to fill central registry of ASDF "by hand".. 2015-12-22T14:36:33Z mtl_: zdm: very interested in your progress with lisp as a first language; feel free to ask me if you have any issues, I'll be glad to help :) 2015-12-22T14:36:49Z zdm: For mtl_ thanks, appreciate it :) 2015-12-22T14:36:54Z zdm: For sure* 2015-12-22T14:36:54Z Xach_: gko: i think bundling would help avoid that. 2015-12-22T14:37:15Z Xach_: gko: my goal was to make it possible to load one file and get easy access to everything a project needs to load. 2015-12-22T14:38:29Z gko: Cool, that would help a lot! 2015-12-22T14:38:46Z Xach_: and make it *not* involve quicklisp itself 2015-12-22T14:40:27Z gko: Yes, great! 2015-12-22T14:40:30Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-22T14:41:51Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T14:42:27Z Xach_: fe[nl]ix: i'm getting 403 on your blog feed 2015-12-22T14:42:30Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-12-22T14:48:24Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-22T14:48:33Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-12-22T14:49:02Z pjb: gko: just save an executable image; this is what the uberjar wants to be. 2015-12-22T14:50:12Z pjb: Furthermore, an executable image is OO, while an uberjar cannot receive messages from the user: it's dead code. 2015-12-22T14:51:58Z newdan joined #lisp 2015-12-22T14:54:58Z fsfafasf joined #lisp 2015-12-22T14:57:24Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-12-22T14:59:08Z algae joined #lisp 2015-12-22T14:59:40Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-12-22T14:59:40Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-12-22T14:59:40Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-12-22T15:03:06Z gko: pjb: actually, I don't need it to be that extreme, since I code on Windows and deploy on Linux and Solaris, so the bundle stuff from quicklisp could be a good starting point. 2015-12-22T15:07:13Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-12-22T15:10:41Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-12-22T15:10:41Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-12-22T15:10:41Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-12-22T15:13:35Z dougk_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T15:17:11Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-12-22T15:17:25Z harish_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-12-22T15:17:41Z harish joined #lisp 2015-12-22T15:18:26Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-12-22T15:24:51Z switchp0rt: are there any libraries for writing a custom DNS server in lisp? 2015-12-22T15:25:20Z m0li joined #lisp 2015-12-22T15:25:47Z Xach_: switchp0rt: I think iolib may have some dns packet processing code 2015-12-22T15:26:14Z Xach_: Writing enough to process the protocol is not not too hard, but the networking and timing bits and getting the algorithms right would take some time. 2015-12-22T15:26:37Z Xach_ thought about doing it, but it has been way down on the list of things to fuss with 2015-12-22T15:26:37Z dougk_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T15:26:43Z switchp0rt: Xach_ yeah, that is what I don't want to write, i'll take a look at iolib, thanks 2015-12-22T15:29:57Z phoe_krk quit (Quit: http://phoe-krk.tumblr.com/) 2015-12-22T15:31:07Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-12-22T15:32:54Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T15:33:10Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-12-22T15:33:57Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-12-22T15:34:13Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-12-22T15:37:41Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2015-12-22T15:40:52Z fsfafasf quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-12-22T15:41:17Z devmau joined #lisp 2015-12-22T15:42:20Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, etc.) 2015-12-22T15:44:47Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-12-22T15:46:25Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-22T15:47:26Z eudoxia_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T15:47:52Z eudoxia quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T15:49:53Z eudoxia_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-12-22T15:51:08Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-12-22T15:51:40Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-12-22T15:52:15Z guicho: moo 2015-12-22T15:52:39Z phoe_krk: moo 2015-12-22T15:53:22Z guicho: I don't know what is the common phrase for asking minion to notify any message to me 2015-12-22T15:53:58Z guicho: anyway, I found a bug in closer-mop, so I came here to find pascal constanza 2015-12-22T15:55:03Z Xach_: pascal costanza does not visit irc 2015-12-22T15:55:13Z Xach_: we get the lesser pascal instead 2015-12-22T15:56:15Z guicho: who is it? 2015-12-22T15:59:01Z guicho: greater (?) pascal was on twitter. thanks Xach 2015-12-22T16:04:20Z guicho: actually, I'm not sure if it is a bug in ccl or a bug in closer-mop or neither. an error happens in a loop clause, (loop for method in methods for qualifier = (method-qualifier method) ...). 2015-12-22T16:04:58Z guicho: (method-qualifier method) is evaluated before method is assigned. 2015-12-22T16:05:29Z guicho: and it ended up no-next-method with argument NIL. 2015-12-22T16:07:10Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-12-22T16:08:00Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-22T16:10:03Z prxq joined #lisp 2015-12-22T16:15:47Z guicho: sorry I pasted the wrong place, the = was "in", and it should be changed to "=" to work correctly. 2015-12-22T16:16:36Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2015-12-22T16:17:36Z nzambe quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-12-22T16:20:17Z jaykru joined #lisp 2015-12-22T16:20:21Z ramky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T16:27:27Z treaki_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T16:30:29Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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How hard should I grill him on that? I'm thinking about getting the stretching rack ready. 2015-12-22T17:51:14Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-12-22T17:52:15Z beach: mordocai: You should definitely find out why. If he/she has good reasons, that's one thing. If he/she doesn't know Lisp (more likely) that's bad. 2015-12-22T17:52:47Z Th30n joined #lisp 2015-12-22T17:53:02Z mordocai: beach: Yeah, i'm definitely asking about it. Joking about the stretching rack. 2015-12-22T17:53:37Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T17:53:38Z beach: Sure. 2015-12-22T17:53:41Z mordocai: They have used Clojure for sure. But apparently they literally said they didn't like Lisp on the phone. 2015-12-22T17:54:58Z beach: But I hear too many people having opinions about things they know nothing about. That is a very bad sign for a programmer. 2015-12-22T17:56:09Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-12-22T17:57:36Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-12-22T17:59:15Z Demosthenex quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T18:00:36Z Xach_: I spent some time interviewing people for a programming position 2015-12-22T18:01:11Z Xach_: I asked a guy what his favorite language was and he said "Lisp! Did you know that Paul Graham wrote Yahoo Store in lisp?!" When I asked if he actually used Lisp, he said "Well, um, no, but the *elegance*..." 2015-12-22T18:01:20Z mordocai: Lol 2015-12-22T18:01:20Z Xach_: after that I resolved to learn Lisp so i would not be like that 2015-12-22T18:01:30Z mordocai: Yeah, interviewing can be "fun". 2015-12-22T18:01:34Z Xach_: (this was many years ago) 2015-12-22T18:01:51Z mordocai: This is the first job that I've had to do interview people in and it has been less than ideal so far. 2015-12-22T18:03:49Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-12-22T18:07:02Z newdan: mordocai: When I interviewed I found most people couldn't even code. My "programming puzzle" was to use whatever language or psuedocode you wanted to write a routine to check if a string was a palindrome (the same frontwards and backwards). I think around 90% of the interviewees couldn't do it... 2015-12-22T18:07:57Z newdan: Maybe some of that is due to nerves but a lot of people just wrote some nonsense 2015-12-22T18:08:09Z phoe_krk: Why would my Emacs indent my loop like that? 2015-12-22T18:08:09Z phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/282102 2015-12-22T18:08:12Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-12-22T18:09:59Z Bicyclidine: that's how slime indents loop. 2015-12-22T18:10:05Z beach: Not mine. 2015-12-22T18:10:15Z Bicyclidine: really? it's always been like that for me. 2015-12-22T18:10:20Z beach: The FORs should be aligned. 2015-12-22T18:10:49Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-12-22T18:11:22Z phoe_krk plays the dramatic drums. 2015-12-22T18:11:23Z flip214: that never would have happened if ITERATE was being used ;) 2015-12-22T18:11:29Z phoe_krk: flip214: :P 2015-12-22T18:11:39Z phoe_krk: I *need* to rewrite that using iter. 2015-12-22T18:11:45Z phoe_krk: when I'm in the mood. 2015-12-22T18:11:56Z sp: beach: mine aren't aligned either, not sure how yours are 2015-12-22T18:12:26Z beach: Wow, strange. 2015-12-22T18:17:42Z shka joined #lisp 2015-12-22T18:18:03Z flip214: tabs versus spaces... 2015-12-22T18:18:33Z beach: sp: Do you have slime-indentation in your slime-setup? I do. 2015-12-22T18:19:26Z Bicyclidine: i have slime-fancy, i forget if that includes indentation. 2015-12-22T18:19:59Z beach: If I remove slime-indentation, it no longer aligns the FORs. 2015-12-22T18:20:12Z beach: So it must be the case that slime-indentation is not part of slime-fancy. 2015-12-22T18:20:23Z sp: ah okay, that's it then 2015-12-22T18:20:32Z beach: phoe_krk: It appears you need slime-indentation in your slime-setup. 2015-12-22T18:20:39Z phoe_krk: I see. 2015-12-22T18:21:05Z sp: cheers, i wasn't aware of that... 2015-12-22T18:22:45Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-12-22T18:23:18Z phoe_krk: wow! 2015-12-22T18:23:20Z phoe_krk: works now. thanks. 2015-12-22T18:24:05Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-12-22T18:24:19Z sp: seconding that 2015-12-22T18:26:57Z phoe_krk: and it works with aggressive-indent. 2015-12-22T18:26:59Z phoe_krk: miraculous. 2015-12-22T18:26:59Z warweasle_meetin is now known as warweasle 2015-12-22T18:26:59Z phoe_krk: <3 2015-12-22T18:30:05Z fe[nl]ix: Xach_: I disabled https redirect for the feed. let me know if there are still issues 2015-12-22T18:32:50Z Jonsky quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.5.1) 2015-12-22T18:33:30Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2015-12-22T18:33:35Z Jonsky left #lisp 2015-12-22T18:33:54Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2015-12-22T18:37:38Z Jonsky: kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk02:33 *** Jonsky JOIN 2015-12-22T18:37:38Z Jonsky: 02:33 *** TOPIC Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) 2015-12-22T18:37:38Z Jonsky: programming language 2015-12-22T18:37:38Z Jonsky: 2015-12-22T18:37:38Z Jonsky: logs:|contact 2015-12-22T18:37:38Z Jonsky quit (Excess Flood) 2015-12-22T18:39:01Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2015-12-22T18:39:14Z Jonsky: sorry I think I accidentally flooded IRC 2015-12-22T18:39:27Z mordocai: Not too badly. I've seen worse. 2015-12-22T18:39:34Z Jonsky: I am so sorry 2015-12-22T18:39:41Z mordocai: I've caused worse actually. 2015-12-22T18:40:02Z Jonsky: I don't know how I manged to copy and pasted the whole window 2015-12-22T18:40:10Z Jonsky: managed* 2015-12-22T18:40:41Z flip214: Jonsky: try again, we couldn't yet see your nick IDENTIFY string ;) 2015-12-22T18:40:52Z Jonsky: hahahaha 2015-12-22T18:40:55Z mordocai: Regarding the slime conversation above, anyone know if you need to enable such things with sly as well 2015-12-22T18:40:57Z Jonsky: Now you all know my secret 2015-12-22T18:41:00Z mordocai: That should have ended in ? 2015-12-22T18:41:07Z Jonsky: I should unplug my internet ;) 2015-12-22T18:42:02Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T18:42:46Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-12-22T18:43:05Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-12-22T18:43:55Z flip214: Jonsky: as long as you leave *ours* connected, go ahead 2015-12-22T18:45:30Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-22T18:45:38Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-12-22T18:47:49Z sp: my internet is the one that says "unplug me". i hope reverse psychology works on you 2015-12-22T18:50:37Z mordocai: beach: Guy likes programming in lisp, doesn't like that at his last job he had to support a Clojure app more or less by himself because everyone else in the company refused to learn lisp due to stigma against it. 2015-12-22T18:51:48Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-12-22T18:52:12Z phoe_krk: mordocai: there will always be the few ones born in parens https://xkcd.com/297/ 2015-12-22T18:52:20Z phoe_krk: but yes, the stigma is terrible. 2015-12-22T18:53:14Z mordocai: So yeah, I consider that a legit enough reason not to discount him as a candidate for having it :) 2015-12-22T18:53:50Z Jonsky: very elegant parentheses 2015-12-22T18:54:01Z Jonsky: I never understand what's the fuzz about the syntax 2015-12-22T18:54:17Z Jonsky: I mean, programmer nearly all use some decent editor. 2015-12-22T18:54:33Z Jonsky: So indenting and balancing parentheses is never a big deal. 2015-12-22T18:54:54Z mordocai shrugs. 2015-12-22T18:55:13Z mordocai: I did have trouble reading code at first, but I also had trouble reading any code at all at first so... yeah 2015-12-22T18:55:34Z dwchandler: It's simple. It's not algol-like and people's eyes bug out when they first see it. 2015-12-22T18:55:51Z dwchandler: That goes away quick, but most people never make it past that 2015-12-22T18:55:54Z sp: i think the ecosystem of lisp put me off it more than its syntax. not that it's bad -- it just seems quite intimidating when you are starting out 2015-12-22T18:57:08Z Th30n: Unfortunately, syntax and the stigma of being this old, hard to understand language, puts off quite a lot of people. At my company, we had to rewrite the project from Scheme to Python in order to employ more people, as they didn't know or want to learn Scheme. 2015-12-22T18:57:10Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-22T18:57:52Z dwchandler: Th30n: I wonder about the "had to" 2015-12-22T18:58:01Z Th30n: It's funny, even at my college when I showed my exercises written in CL, the teacher looked at me wierdly and said "Why use paren filled old language from the 50s" 2015-12-22T18:58:13Z Th30n: s/wierdly/weirdly 2015-12-22T18:58:29Z Jonsky: The first language I learned was Fortran. So I never felt like "What? Lisp? It's so old!!" 2015-12-22T18:58:30Z Th30n: dwchandler: I wonder too... 2015-12-22T18:58:36Z phoe_krk: Th30n: I'm implementing a lot of things for my class in Lisp 2015-12-22T18:58:37Z beach: Th30n: There are stupidity even among teachers. 2015-12-22T18:58:44Z beach: is 2015-12-22T18:58:56Z phoe_krk: the simplest thing? 2015-12-22T18:59:01Z phoe_krk: implementing a single-linked list in Lisp 2015-12-22T18:59:08Z beach: heh. 2015-12-22T18:59:12Z sbryant quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-12-22T18:59:12Z sshirokov quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-12-22T18:59:13Z Jonsky: hahaa 2015-12-22T18:59:17Z phoe_krk: hey, I did it 2015-12-22T18:59:23Z phoe_krk: CLOS was included 2015-12-22T18:59:43Z phoe_krk: and now I only have to implement Lisp using my CLOS single-linked list 2015-12-22T19:00:04Z phoe_krk: SO I CAN RECURSE INTO INFINITY. 2015-12-22T19:00:20Z Jonsky: hm....sorry for my n00bness but...I thought list == linked list? 2015-12-22T19:00:26Z sp: don't blow out your stack, now 2015-12-22T19:00:27Z phoe_krk: Jonsky: yes, yes 2015-12-22T19:00:36Z blub: the biggest misunderstanding of lisp i hear is that its a language consisting solely of car cdr cons and lambda 2015-12-22T19:00:52Z phoe_krk: a single-linked list implemented in CLOS on Lisp implemented using a single-linked list implemented in CLOS on Lisp implemented using a single-linked list implemented in CLOS on Lisp implemented using a single-linked list implemented in CLOS on SBCL. 2015-12-22T19:00:55Z sp: blub: people actually think that? 2015-12-22T19:01:02Z sshirokov joined #lisp 2015-12-22T19:01:10Z beach: They also think that Lisp has only atoms and lists as data types. 2015-12-22T19:01:13Z beach: Wait, that's true. 2015-12-22T19:01:14Z Jonsky: blub: I was actually quite happy that I could write so many things with just these few primives. 2015-12-22T19:01:14Z sbryant joined #lisp 2015-12-22T19:01:43Z phoe_krk: blub, that's true 2015-12-22T19:01:51Z phoe_krk: deep inside it's all car cdr cons and lambda 2015-12-22T19:01:56Z Jonsky: phoe_krk: My head has stack overflow. I need garbage collection 2015-12-22T19:02:13Z beach: OK, time for me to go do something else. 2015-12-22T19:02:15Z beach left #lisp 2015-12-22T19:02:16Z phoe_krk: all the defuns and defvars are just pieces of Lisp code meant to distract you from that 2015-12-22T19:02:23Z sp: i wonder how combining a simple formal base with a powerful set of abstractions could possibly be a bad thing 2015-12-22T19:02:33Z phoe_krk: blub, open your eyes and see through the lies 2015-12-22T19:02:59Z phoe_krk: lisp is just nine primitives at the bottom. :P 2015-12-22T19:03:10Z phoe_krk: http://www.michaelnielsen.org/ddi/lisp-as-the-maxwells-equations-of-software/ 2015-12-22T19:03:26Z Jonsky: I heard it's seven, just like how god created the world. 2015-12-22T19:04:01Z Jonsky: In the first 03:03 I heard it's seven, just like how god created the 2015-12-22T19:04:01Z Jonsky: world. 2015-12-22T19:04:07Z Jonsky: oops 2015-12-22T19:04:11Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-12-22T19:04:13Z Jonsky: sorry 2015-12-22T19:04:38Z phoe_krk: car, cdr, atom, cons, eq, label, lambda, eval, quote, null 2015-12-22T19:04:41Z phoe_krk: I think these are the nine 2015-12-22T19:04:54Z phoe_krk: but I may be mistaken 2015-12-22T19:05:19Z sp: those are ten 2015-12-22T19:05:29Z phoe_krk: ten 2015-12-22T19:05:30Z phoe_krk: whoops 2015-12-22T19:05:45Z phoe_krk: without label then. 2015-12-22T19:05:53Z phoe_krk: wait, we can do without lambda, too. 2015-12-22T19:05:54Z sp: is apply not a primitive? 2015-12-22T19:06:12Z phoe_krk: huh, I'm wrong. 2015-12-22T19:06:38Z phoe_krk: cons, car, cdr, atom, eq, null, quote 2015-12-22T19:06:51Z phoe_krk: sp: I think it's not, I think you can write it using eval 2015-12-22T19:07:09Z phoe_krk: but again, I don't know the subject too well and might be speculating bow. 2015-12-22T19:07:10Z phoe_krk: now. 2015-12-22T19:07:12Z sp: ah.. 2015-12-22T19:07:39Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-12-22T19:08:57Z phoe_krk: clhs apply 2015-12-22T19:08:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 2015-12-22T19:12:02Z Pittman joined #lisp 2015-12-22T19:12:56Z phoe_krk: http://www.michaelnielsen.org/ddi/lisp-as-the-maxwells-equations-of-software/ here apply is defined in terms of eval, I think it can be done similarly in CL 2015-12-22T19:14:58Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-12-22T19:15:39Z sp: hm.. 2015-12-22T19:16:37Z phoe_krk: I actually think that Paul Graham in ANSI CL defines a my-apply somewhere. 2015-12-22T19:16:41Z phoe_krk: I'd need to check. 2015-12-22T19:17:07Z phoe_krk: I find that book very useful when understanding the internal basics of Lisp. 2015-12-22T19:17:45Z Xach_: i still feel like it shortchanges common lisp 2015-12-22T19:18:04Z sp: Xach_: how so? 2015-12-22T19:18:33Z phoe_krk: shortchanges? 2015-12-22T19:19:08Z phoe_krk: oh, I see. 2015-12-22T19:19:18Z phoe_krk: there's PCL for that, when it comes to showing people how to unleash the power behind CL. 2015-12-22T19:19:35Z phoe_krk: but when you need a book that piece by piece explains you the car and cdr behind everything in Lisp, ANSI CL is there. 2015-12-22T19:19:46Z Xach_: sp: barely mentioning packages, calling CLOS an elephantine way to write junk code, barely mentioning loop 2015-12-22T19:23:18Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T19:23:24Z blub: i thought pcl's clos treatment was pretty lacking 2015-12-22T19:24:02Z phoe_krk: Xach_: we need to live with both Graham's genius and weirdnesses, and ANSI CL is an example of both 2015-12-22T19:24:11Z Xach_: I don't think it's necessary. 2015-12-22T19:24:23Z tessier_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-12-22T19:24:24Z Xach_: I think you'd do well to just ignore ANSI CL and use PCL and PAIP and others. 2015-12-22T19:24:31Z phoe_krk: hm, perhaps. 2015-12-22T19:24:37Z sp: Xach_: fair enough, i don't think his explanation of CLOS really helped me 2015-12-22T19:24:48Z Xach_: blub: I liked the example of using :most-specific-last method combination to layer binary file parsing. 2015-12-22T19:25:08Z phoe_krk: I'll need to look around for another good explanation of the car-cdr-cons basics of Lisp, then. 2015-12-22T19:25:11Z tessier joined #lisp 2015-12-22T19:25:12Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2015-12-22T19:25:12Z tessier joined #lisp 2015-12-22T19:25:59Z sp: phoe_krk: wouldn't a scheme book be superior for that kind of thing? 2015-12-22T19:26:20Z phoe_krk: sp: no, why would a Scheme book be better for CL? 2015-12-22T19:26:51Z sp: i wasn't talking about CL, i was talking about the "car-cdr-cons basics of Lisp". not really sure what you're after here 2015-12-22T19:27:02Z phoe_krk: s/Lisp/Common Lisp/ 2015-12-22T19:27:08Z phoe_krk: sorry. 2015-12-22T19:27:24Z phoe_krk: but it's not like CL's deep deep internals differ so much when compared to Scheme. 2015-12-22T19:28:06Z sp: i think i took you a little too literally 2015-12-22T19:28:10Z phoe_krk: the only two big differences down below I know are, what () evals to and namespaces. 2015-12-22T19:29:08Z sp: personally i can't get over the difference between () and #f. is there something wrong with me? 2015-12-22T19:30:04Z phoe_krk: I don't know, depends on why you can't get over it. 2015-12-22T19:30:07Z shka: phoe_krk: it is not everything 2015-12-22T19:30:14Z phoe_krk: shka: tell me more 2015-12-22T19:30:21Z phoe_krk: oh, and recursion 2015-12-22T19:30:36Z sp: first-class continuations, no? 2015-12-22T19:31:30Z shka: phoe_krk: basicly, the very reason of existance is different 2015-12-22T19:32:35Z sp: phoe_krk: well, my perception stems from my own frustrations in trying to use scheme as a practical language 2015-12-22T19:32:48Z sp: it feels exceptionally pedantic 2015-12-22T19:33:30Z sp: scheme may not be originally intended as a practical languages, but nowadays it is often advocated as such 2015-12-22T19:34:05Z sp: s/s,/, 2015-12-22T19:35:34Z shka: well, it is not that bad 2015-12-22T19:35:34Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T19:36:08Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-12-22T19:36:53Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-12-22T19:37:27Z sp: yeah, i won't dispute that it's an acceptable lisp. and i like tinyscheme for embedding 2015-12-22T19:37:31Z dwchandler: sp what is it about '() and #f that you don't like? 2015-12-22T19:38:05Z dwchandler is honestly curious 2015-12-22T19:38:31Z phoe_krk: >acceptable lisp 2015-12-22T19:38:53Z phoe_krk: I really need to write that deflisp macro of mine. 2015-12-22T19:39:37Z sp: it seems to me that intuitively, an empty list in a language which is based around lists should be false 2015-12-22T19:41:11Z dwchandler: my take is that an empty list is a valid result, often enough in practice. overloading falseness onto it makes some situations awkward 2015-12-22T19:41:40Z sp: you may well be right. i don't think i have enough experience to judge properly 2015-12-22T19:41:50Z sp: in practice i'm more annoyed by the fact that you can't take the car or cdr of an empty list 2015-12-22T19:41:54Z dwchandler: I probably don't either 2015-12-22T19:42:57Z phoe_krk: ooooh, and that 2015-12-22T19:43:10Z phoe_krk: (car nil) returns nil in CL, so does (cdr nil). 2015-12-22T19:43:46Z shka: phoe_krk: what is so weird about that? 2015-12-22T19:43:47Z phoe_krk: that's one big difference, too. 2015-12-22T19:44:08Z phoe_krk: shka: (car '()) in Scheme is an error. so is (cdr '()). 2015-12-22T19:44:20Z shka: oh 2015-12-22T19:44:22Z shka: interesting 2015-12-22T19:44:47Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-12-22T19:45:31Z phoe_krk: shka: http://www.biwascheme.org./ <- try it here. 2015-12-22T19:45:46Z shka: i checked in guile already 2015-12-22T19:45:50Z phoe_krk: http://www.learnlispthehardway.org/try-lisp/ <- and here. 2015-12-22T19:45:51Z shka: that's interesting 2015-12-22T19:45:52Z phoe_krk: oh, okay. 2015-12-22T19:45:52Z sp: i think scheme gets off on yelling at people 2015-12-22T19:46:05Z phoe_krk: sp: what? 2015-12-22T19:46:12Z shka: i don't like this behavior 2015-12-22T19:46:14Z phoe_krk: Scheme the language? 2015-12-22T19:46:27Z sp: yeah, scheme the language 2015-12-22T19:46:42Z newdan left #lisp 2015-12-22T19:46:48Z phoe_krk: I don't think so, it's just different when it comes to a few philosophical designs. 2015-12-22T19:46:54Z phoe_krk: so is CL when you go against its nature. 2015-12-22T19:47:08Z sp: can you give me an example re: CL? i'm curious 2015-12-22T19:47:24Z phoe_krk: can you give me an example re: Scheme? i'm curious 2015-12-22T19:47:47Z sp: that scheme doesn't let you take the cdr of the empty list is a pretty good example 2015-12-22T19:48:13Z shka: does scheme even considers nil to be a list? 2015-12-22T19:48:15Z phoe_krk: it signals an error. it's a good behaviour, because Scheme is specified to signal an error the moment you take a cdr of an empty list. 2015-12-22T19:48:22Z phoe_krk: shka: there's no nil in Scheme. 2015-12-22T19:48:24Z phoe_krk: AFAIK 2015-12-22T19:48:39Z shka: uhm 2015-12-22T19:48:39Z Xach_: i think it is not good to continue this discussion 2015-12-22T19:48:54Z shka: well, probabbly we can end here 2015-12-22T19:48:54Z sp: phoe_krk: yes, you are right. my only contention is that i don't like that behavior. but, to each his own. 2015-12-22T19:49:13Z badkins_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T19:49:18Z phoe_krk: precisely what I wanted to say. and indeed EOT for me. 2015-12-22T19:50:11Z dwchandler: or take it to ##lisp :) 2015-12-22T19:50:32Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-12-22T19:50:39Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-12-22T19:54:02Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-12-22T19:56:47Z Warlock[29A] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T19:57:15Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-12-22T20:00:07Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T20:01:44Z zotherstupidguy quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-12-22T20:02:02Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-12-22T20:03:27Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-22T20:06:49Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-12-22T20:07:57Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-12-22T20:08:42Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-12-22T20:11:06Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-22T20:11:21Z Guest66141 joined #lisp 2015-12-22T20:11:46Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T20:12:05Z Yanez quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T20:15:26Z Guest66141 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T20:23:04Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-12-22T20:23:13Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T20:23:15Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-22T20:23:52Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-12-22T20:34:53Z downloadico joined #lisp 2015-12-22T20:42:42Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-12-22T20:42:42Z MrWoohoo2 quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-12-22T20:44:00Z Demosthenex joined #lisp 2015-12-22T20:47:10Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-12-22T20:48:15Z sp quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.5.1) 2015-12-22T20:48:57Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T20:53:25Z jasom: is unread-char well defined if given a character that wasn't the last character read from the stream? I don't see anything in the hyperspec to make me think otherwise 2015-12-22T20:53:50Z jasom: nevermind: character---a character; must be the last character that was read from input-stream. 2015-12-22T20:55:32Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T20:55:53Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-12-22T20:57:20Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-22T20:58:35Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T21:00:59Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-12-22T21:07:29Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-12-22T21:12:24Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T21:12:37Z Th30n quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-12-22T21:13:44Z Nikotiini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T21:17:06Z ralt joined #lisp 2015-12-22T21:17:34Z ralt: hm 2015-12-22T21:17:43Z ralt: does someone know how to get a ql dist at a particular version? 2015-12-22T21:17:50Z pjb: jasom: you know that files are read and written block by block on disk. When you read the first character of the second block of the file, the system will load this block in the buffer, overwriting the old contents of the buffer (which was the first block). So in this case, if you unread and read again, it would be costly to have to read back the previous block to get access to the last character of the first block. 2015-12-22T21:18:06Z ralt: there's no "version" argument to ql-dist:find-dist 2015-12-22T21:18:08Z ralt: cc Xach 2015-12-22T21:18:12Z mordocai: ralt: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2011/08/going-back-in-dist-time.html 2015-12-22T21:18:33Z pilne joined #lisp 2015-12-22T21:18:57Z ralt: mordocai: I meant using ql-dist:find-dist or something similar, not to install it locally 2015-12-22T21:19:01Z pjb: jasom: so it is expected that the character given to unread-char could be stored with the stream for the next read. On the other hand, in the middle of a buffer, unread-char may just decrement the pointer to read again the buffer. 2015-12-22T21:19:33Z sp joined #lisp 2015-12-22T21:19:50Z mordocai: ralt: If you want the text file that blog shows how to get the list of the available ones and you can just download it and look at it. Otherwise I don't know. 2015-12-22T21:20:43Z mordocai: Xach_ would 2015-12-22T21:20:45Z ralt: mordocai: yeah, I'm specifically looking in a way to be able to use ql-dist:provided-releases in a loop of quicklisp dists, basically. 2015-12-22T21:20:54Z ralt: s/in a way/for a way/ 2015-12-22T21:21:05Z mordocai: ralt: Yeah, my above use of his _ username should ping him. 2015-12-22T21:21:12Z ralt: thanks :) 2015-12-22T21:21:27Z mordocai: Xach_: are your ears burning yet? 2015-12-22T21:22:08Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-12-22T21:23:27Z ralt: I'm currently running https://github.com/ralt/qldeb to generate a debian package per quicklisp system 2015-12-22T21:23:33Z ralt: already 2k packages generated 2015-12-22T21:23:47Z ralt: aaand it failed. 2015-12-22T21:23:55Z ralt: heap memory exhausted. 2015-12-22T21:24:04Z mordocai: moar heap! 2015-12-22T21:24:18Z ralt: 2165 packages 2015-12-22T21:24:59Z ralt: 1072 packages left :( 2015-12-22T21:25:12Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-12-22T21:26:18Z ralt: hm, maybe y'all can help me to put this memory usage down. 2015-12-22T21:26:25Z ralt: is there a way to get rid of an object? 2015-12-22T21:26:31Z ralt: I have this code: https://github.com/ralt/qldeb/blob/master/qldeb.lisp#L16-L18 2015-12-22T21:26:52Z ralt: where basically a reference of every package ends up, so it ends up filling up the memory 2015-12-22T21:27:08Z ralt: can't I just tell it "discard this result"? 2015-12-22T21:27:41Z ralt: hm. 2015-12-22T21:27:46Z ralt: for some reason, it actually kept going 2015-12-22T21:28:01Z ralt: so I'm at 2343 packages. 2015-12-22T21:28:14Z ralt: looks like lparallel replaces dead workers 2015-12-22T21:29:36Z ralt: >2500 packages now... oh well. 2015-12-22T21:37:15Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-12-22T21:38:28Z warweasle quit (Quit: Go home...workout...hurt...) 2015-12-22T21:38:49Z pjb: packages are kept by CL anyways. So they are never garbage collected, unless youc all DELETE-PACKAGE. 2015-12-22T21:39:05Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T21:43:07Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-12-22T21:45:43Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-12-22T21:45:47Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-12-22T21:46:09Z mordocai: pjb: Interesting. I did not know that. Makes sense though. 2015-12-22T21:46:56Z ralt: pjb: sorry, "package" here means "debian package", i.e. a data structure I keep in memory 2015-12-22T21:47:18Z fourier quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T21:48:04Z moei joined #lisp 2015-12-22T21:48:55Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-12-22T21:48:56Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-12-22T21:55:48Z Xach joined #lisp 2015-12-22T21:57:56Z Xach_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-22T22:03:20Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-12-22T22:05:54Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-12-22T22:06:24Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-12-22T22:08:04Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-12-22T22:08:47Z rick-monster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T22:09:35Z phoe_krk quit (Quit: http://phoe-krk.tumblr.com/) 2015-12-22T22:10:43Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-12-22T22:10:43Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T22:11:22Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-12-22T22:11:56Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-12-22T22:12:48Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-12-22T22:15:41Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T22:17:12Z Quadrescence: pjb, can you write a guide on objects in lisp that can be potential "leaks"? 2015-12-22T22:21:32Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-12-22T22:28:47Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2015-12-22T22:33:01Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-12-22T22:33:51Z badkins_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-12-22T22:35:01Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-22T22:37:20Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-12-22T22:43:46Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-22T22:44:05Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-22T22:44:06Z downloadico quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-12-22T22:46:07Z iddqd joined #lisp 2015-12-22T22:46:44Z moore33 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-12-22T22:49:30Z happy-dude quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-22T22:50:06Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-12-22T22:56:11Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-12-22T22:56:46Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-12-22T23:00:40Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2015-12-22T23:02:59Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-22T23:04:59Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-12-22T23:08:01Z kyfho: lisp 2015-12-22T23:08:03Z kyfho: how I love thee 2015-12-22T23:08:48Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-12-22T23:13:06Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-12-22T23:13:48Z sp: do you mind rephrasing that in haiku form? 2015-12-22T23:16:24Z dreamaddict joined #lisp 2015-12-22T23:16:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-12-22T23:17:01Z dreamaddict: how does LISP handle a function like remove-duplicates? 2015-12-22T23:17:12Z dreamaddict: for example, I have a permutation function that permutes a list of elements 2015-12-22T23:17:21Z dreamaddict: and I want to remove any duplicates in the list 2015-12-22T23:17:51Z rtoym joined #lisp 2015-12-22T23:18:07Z dreamaddict: if I just go (remove-duplicates (permute elements)), does it generate the entire permute elements and then go through removing duplicates, or does it/is there a way to remove them on the fly? 2015-12-22T23:19:13Z mordocai: dreamaddict: Common lisp is not lazy by default. I believe that is the question you are asking. 2015-12-22T23:19:15Z dreamaddict: I don’t know what I’m asking here really, except now I am curious how to put together a function like that in the most efficient way, and wondering how close LISP is to that efficient way 2015-12-22T23:20:36Z dreamaddict: it seems like it would be faster to construct some kind of tree, adding an element to the tree and results if it is unique, and discarding it if the permutation reaches the end of the tree and finds something there 2015-12-22T23:21:12Z dreamaddict: because imagining what it does if I just make a raw list of permutations and then run remove-duplicates on it…that’s what I don’t know. how does it do that internally? 2015-12-22T23:22:52Z sp: if i understand correctly, you'd just be generating the entire list, and then copying all the unique elements into a new list, which seemingly isn't what you want 2015-12-22T23:22:58Z mordocai: dreamaddict: By default it will calculate (permute elements) all at once and then iterate through the result to remove the duplicates. There are many ways to write something that doesn't do that, and a large part of the decision of which way to do it is preference. 2015-12-22T23:23:11Z dreamaddict: ok so it does by default what I expected 2015-12-22T23:23:15Z sp: delete-duplicates could do it destructively, but even so 2015-12-22T23:23:28Z dreamaddict: that seems slow, and then I wonder, how to do that less wastefully 2015-12-22T23:23:37Z dreamaddict: like some way to remove duplicates as the list is being generated 2015-12-22T23:23:44Z sp: i think what you really want is to rewrite your permute function 2015-12-22T23:23:49Z dreamaddict: right 2015-12-22T23:23:53Z mordocai: dreamaddict: Assuming you wrote permute yourself, you can do it as part of permute. 2015-12-22T23:24:24Z dreamaddict: I need to tweak it so that, for example, if you are permuting ‘(1 2 5 1), the result ‘(2 5 1 1) will only appear once 2015-12-22T23:24:44Z dreamaddict: even though permute treats the two ones as distinct objects 2015-12-22T23:24:57Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-12-22T23:26:32Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-12-22T23:26:42Z dreamaddict: well at least I know what it will do ordinarily 2015-12-22T23:26:47Z mordocai: The most efficient(and difficult) is probably to figure out a way to write your algorithm to where it doesn't create duplicates in the first place. 2015-12-22T23:27:03Z dreamaddict: yes that is trickier than it seems on the surface 2015-12-22T23:27:34Z mordocai: indeed, usually is 2015-12-22T23:28:10Z dreamaddict: my first thought is, organize the results in some kind of tree form, walk the tree as a permutation is constructed, and if the permutation is complete and there is an entry in the tree, it is discarded…otherwise added to the tree and the result of the function 2015-12-22T23:28:27Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-12-22T23:28:32Z mordocai: Otherwise you probably either want to use/write a lazy sequence library or use a hash to detect dups as you create them. 2015-12-22T23:29:14Z dreamaddict: this is that strange place where I can visualize a good solution, but I am too ignorant of the tools that already exist to know what to use, or if anything existing is better than my thoughts 2015-12-22T23:29:37Z dreamaddict: …how would being lazy help this (I do know what you mean by lazy) 2015-12-22T23:30:13Z dreamaddict: and would checking for unique hashes be quicker than just using remove-dups on the whole list? 2015-12-22T23:30:27Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-22T23:30:38Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-12-22T23:30:59Z sp: speed isn't everything; keep in mind space efficiency as well 2015-12-22T23:31:11Z mordocai: dreamaddict: Probably, you'd have to benchmark to be sure. More memory though as sp points out. I think unless you really really need performance the naive way will probably work fine. 2015-12-22T23:31:24Z dreamaddict: probably 2015-12-22T23:31:30Z dreamaddict: in this scenario there are not that many permutations 2015-12-22T23:32:08Z sp: yeah, i would just go with your original intuition unless it becomes an actual bottleneck 2015-12-22T23:32:11Z dreamaddict: still I can’t help being interested in how the fastest solution would be structured 2015-12-22T23:32:45Z dreamaddict: I’ll just remove-duplicates on the finished results 2015-12-22T23:33:47Z mordocai: dreamaddict: I -think- the check-as-you-go with a hash/tree would be the fastest barring really crazy stuff. If you are doing this for fun, i'd write it both ways personally. 2015-12-22T23:34:02Z dreamaddict: it’s part of 99 LISP problems 2015-12-22T23:34:04Z sp: dreamaddict: it's an interesting problem, sure, but is it really your problem right now? :) 2015-12-22T23:34:11Z phoe_krk: 99 lisp problems? 2015-12-22T23:34:29Z dreamaddict: yeah, google it, it’s like a list of kung-fu moves 2015-12-22T23:34:33Z dreamaddict: if you can do them all then you’re a ninja 2015-12-22T23:34:38Z phoe_krk: oh! these. 2015-12-22T23:34:51Z dreamaddict: more fun to do than a tutorial book, more fun to learn as I solve them 2015-12-22T23:35:29Z dreamaddict: I’m almost finished with the list-manipulation part, which stops at about 28 or so 2015-12-22T23:35:31Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-22T23:36:00Z dreamaddict: the one I’m on right now is sublist grouping, which is basically a variation of the permutation problem...? 2015-12-22T23:37:00Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2015-12-22T23:37:06Z Guest66141 joined #lisp 2015-12-22T23:38:06Z resttime: sp: A star just for me, guides my ship against the C. Lisp, how I love thee. 2015-12-22T23:39:16Z sp: resttime: you've done well :) 2015-12-22T23:39:55Z dreamaddict: it really is way more fun coding in Lisp than any other language I’ve seen 2015-12-22T23:40:58Z phoe_krk: dreamaddict: wait until macros 2015-12-22T23:41:03Z mordocai: That's the main reason I program in lisp. Fun. 2015-12-22T23:41:08Z phoe_krk: ^ 2015-12-22T23:41:10Z sp: shush, you'll ruin the surprise 2015-12-22T23:41:26Z dreamaddict: I’ve seen tastes of macros 2015-12-22T23:41:51Z phoe_krk: sp: (defsurprise my-surprise "Macros are actually a good part of the fun in Lisp. Write code which writes code which possibly writes code which possibly writes code for you.") 2015-12-22T23:41:55Z phoe_krk: (ruin-surprise my-surprise) 2015-12-22T23:41:56Z dreamaddict: but haven’t yet really applied one where it was like, “holy shit this would have been a nightmare or impossible in another language” 2015-12-22T23:41:58Z phoe_krk: too late 2015-12-22T23:42:22Z sp: phoe_krk: lol. 2015-12-22T23:42:49Z dfcat quit (Quit: ceeya) 2015-12-22T23:43:04Z phoe_krk: dreamaddict: your language doesn't have a while. 2015-12-22T23:43:09Z phoe_krk: huh, you write it yourself. 2015-12-22T23:43:53Z dreamaddict: just tie the function in a knot and use when/unless 2015-12-22T23:44:11Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-12-22T23:44:34Z sp: who let the scheme guy in? 2015-12-22T23:44:41Z sp: (joking) 2015-12-22T23:45:32Z phoe_krk: imagine writing this in c: loop (x = 0, x < 20, x++) (y = "", x < 20, y = y + "a"; x++) { printf("hello!\n"); lisp("(format t \"ohay!~%\""); } 2015-12-22T23:45:40Z phoe_krk: valid C? no way. 2015-12-22T23:46:18Z phoe_krk: makes sense? probably not, programmer-wise. 2015-12-22T23:46:42Z phoe_krk: but you can see what I meant by that and Lisp fairly easily allows you to write your own syntax for parsing such constructs. 2015-12-22T23:47:28Z dreamaddict: I haven’t seen yet anything that LISP can’t theoretically express 2015-12-22T23:47:34Z dreamaddict: except a new special operator 2015-12-22T23:47:51Z phoe_krk: define special operator 2015-12-22T23:48:01Z dreamaddict: the quote symbol 2015-12-22T23:48:02Z dreamaddict: ‘ 2015-12-22T23:48:08Z phoe_krk: umm 2015-12-22T23:48:09Z mordocai: Nope, you can do that too! 2015-12-22T23:48:12Z phoe_krk: quote is just a reader macro 2015-12-22T23:48:33Z dreamaddict: oh well then I guess you can do anything 2015-12-22T23:48:45Z phoe_krk: https://gist.github.com/chaitanyagupta/9324402 here is an implementation of quote in CL 2015-12-22T23:48:56Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T23:49:04Z sp: reader macros open up a whole new world which frankly scares me a bit 2015-12-22T23:49:08Z phoe_krk: by the end you're done, it's running off your own code because you substituted the macro function for #\' with your own 2015-12-22T23:49:11Z mordocai: It should sp 2015-12-22T23:49:18Z mordocai: That's the fun 2015-12-22T23:49:34Z phoe_krk: sp: it does open the new world, the world called read-time 2015-12-22T23:49:39Z phoe_krk: what happens when you read the code 2015-12-22T23:49:53Z sp: indeed 2015-12-22T23:50:05Z rvchangue quit (Quit: dead) 2015-12-22T23:50:13Z phoe_krk: C doesn't have that, GCC doesn't allow you to do anything to it while it reads the code. 2015-12-22T23:50:22Z phoe_krk: No other C compiler allows that either. 2015-12-22T23:50:36Z dreamaddict: wow if you can bend the reader then anything is possible 2015-12-22T23:50:47Z mordocai: true story 2015-12-22T23:51:11Z dreamaddict: question: can you read just a certain piece of text/a file with one custom set of reader specs/macros, and then switch to another set for “regular” code? 2015-12-22T23:51:19Z phoe_krk: In Lisp, you can freely tell your reader to throw an INACCEPTABLE-PROGRAMMER-BEHAVIOUR-ERROR whenever it encounters the characters #\f #\u #\c #\k in the code. 2015-12-22T23:51:31Z dreamaddict: :D 2015-12-22T23:51:31Z phoe_krk: dreamaddict: yes, you can. 2015-12-22T23:51:44Z dreamaddict: so you can make special glasses for LISP so that it can read…anything... 2015-12-22T23:51:52Z dreamaddict: that is disgusting 2015-12-22T23:52:03Z phoe_krk: special glasses? 2015-12-22T23:52:05Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-12-22T23:52:32Z dreamaddict: I mean, define a bunch of macros that the reader only uses on some text and not on others 2015-12-22T23:52:39Z phoe_krk: of course 2015-12-22T23:52:45Z phoe_krk: look at dispatch macros 2015-12-22T23:53:15Z phoe_krk: #C is for comples numbers, #P is for paths, #{ is e.g. for C-syntax from with-c-syntax 2015-12-22T23:53:21Z sp: i imagine you could do some really diabolical things, if so inclined 2015-12-22T23:53:31Z phoe_krk: I mean, there's already the with-c-syntax macro that essentially allows you to write in a fairly big subset of C99. 2015-12-22T23:53:43Z dreamaddict: I mean what this looks like is, you could conceivably do (read-with :JS “javascriptfile.js”) and get wrappers out of it that you can call with LISP 2015-12-22T23:53:54Z dreamaddict: or C 2015-12-22T23:54:06Z phoe_krk: uhhh 2015-12-22T23:54:08Z phoe_krk: of course 2015-12-22T23:54:20Z phoe_krk: and interpret that as Lisp code 2015-12-22T23:54:22Z sp: it just depends on whether you want to, which in most cases is probably: no 2015-12-22T23:54:27Z phoe_krk: like with-c-syntax does 2015-12-22T23:54:34Z phoe_krk: it ends up translating C into Lisp 2015-12-22T23:54:44Z dreamaddict: with c speed? 2015-12-22T23:54:51Z lnostdal_ joined #lisp 2015-12-22T23:55:04Z phoe_krk: of course not 2015-12-22T23:55:04Z mea-culpa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T23:55:10Z phoe_krk: it has an overhead. 2015-12-22T23:55:17Z dreamaddict: just trying to see how much I can avoid screwing with other programming languages 2015-12-22T23:55:30Z phoe_krk: it doesn't *compile* the code with GCC. 2015-12-22T23:55:31Z dreamaddict: I mean the translations…have C speed? 2015-12-22T23:55:45Z phoe_krk: the translations have Lisp speed with some overhead. 2015-12-22T23:55:54Z dreamaddict: hmmm 2015-12-22T23:55:59Z phoe_krk: But again. 2015-12-22T23:56:02Z sp: but lisp speed can be pretty impressive 2015-12-22T23:56:07Z phoe_krk: ^ 2015-12-22T23:56:08Z Guest4677 quit (Changing host) 2015-12-22T23:56:08Z Guest4677 joined #lisp 2015-12-22T23:56:15Z Guest4677 is now known as wolfcore 2015-12-22T23:56:17Z dreamaddict: then what you would want is maybe like, some way to take an OBJ file and manipulate the input/outputs with LISP 2015-12-22T23:56:25Z phoe_krk: dreamaddict: OBJ file? 2015-12-22T23:56:31Z dreamaddict: .o 2015-12-22T23:56:31Z mordocai: .o I assume 2015-12-22T23:56:33Z dreamaddict: right 2015-12-22T23:56:34Z mordocai: heh 2015-12-22T23:56:42Z phoe_krk: I think you want FFI, Foreign Function Interface. 2015-12-22T23:56:49Z dreamaddict: why yes 2015-12-22T23:57:08Z dreamaddict: forgive me I’m still new to LISP, I have no idea how well any of these fantastical marvelous concepts are implemented 2015-12-22T23:57:12Z sp: cffi is so easy to use it makes me feel like i am missing something 2015-12-22T23:57:23Z mordocai: Yeah, cl-autowrap makes it more magical too 2015-12-22T23:57:42Z mordocai: I've only used other people's c wrappers and occasionally improved them though. Haven't done one from scratch. 2015-12-22T23:57:58Z dreamaddict: so, a dude who is awesome at C and a dude who is awesome at LISP could take over the world 2015-12-22T23:58:01Z dreamaddict: with their powers combined 2015-12-22T23:58:14Z phoe_krk: uhh 2015-12-22T23:58:19Z phoe_krk: that's how they created SBCL 2015-12-22T23:58:23Z phoe_krk: and ECL 2015-12-22T23:58:25Z rvchangue joined #lisp 2015-12-22T23:58:32Z phoe_krk: and a few other Lisp implementations?... 2015-12-22T23:58:36Z Xach: No. 2015-12-22T23:58:41Z mordocai: phoe_krk: I thought SBCL was assembly to lisp. Not C. 2015-12-22T23:58:46Z sp: but did they take over the world? is the important question 2015-12-22T23:58:51Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-22T23:58:54Z ASau quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-22T23:58:56Z phoe_krk: mordocai: SBCL has a part of it in C. 2015-12-22T23:59:00Z phoe_krk: Xach: do tell 2015-12-22T23:59:13Z sp: yeah i'm pretty sure phoe_krk is right 2015-12-22T23:59:29Z mordocai: Ah, yeah. Apparently sbcl codebase is 5.9% C per github's mirror